Let‘s Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation

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Let’s Talk HR has been an amazing journey. A special thanks to all my audience for joining me on this journey and supporting me. We are ending this, the same way we started, with a good friend and fellow podcaster Robb Conlon, Owner/Founder of Westport Studio. Join us for an great conversation about Robb’s journey into entrepreneurship and close the book on Lets Talk HR.

But don’t be to disappointed, because this girl is not going anywhere, coming January 2024 we are launching Love Your Sales – The podcast that will be breaking down all the sales tips, tricks and objections that stand in your way to the golden, YES.

Contact Robb –

Website - https://www.westportstudiosllc.com/

E-mail - westportstudiosllc@gmail.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Robb Conlon 01:15

It is a bit of a full circle moment here, which is fun, and I always love those.

Leighann Lovely 01:19

Yes. So for my audience, I have Robb Conlon joining me today. It is bittersweet as I am announcing that this is going to be the final episode of Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. And for those of you who have been on this journey with me, two years ago, I launched bloodstock HR, and Rob Conlon, who has over the years now, I think about four years, three, three and a half, four, somewhere in there. He actually helped me launch this podcast by joining me on my first ever episode, to interview me on why I wanted to launch this podcast. He has been a great friend, he has been somebody had gone to for advice on how to even do a podcast. And it's just been such an amazing journey to, I guess, get advice from you and watch you on your entrepreneur journey. And so I'm so thrilled that you've agreed to join me today and to talk to me about this

Robb Conlon 02:30

completely my friend. And it's one of those things where I can't believe it's been two years since we kick this thing off. And now we're, we're closing it up. It's like, wow, that kind of was a snap. You know, I

Leighann Lovely 02:43

know, when I look back at you know, originally launching this, and I get I'm getting goosebumps, because of you know the story behind why I originally wanted to launch let's take, or let's talk HR. And now the reason that I'm decided to sunset it, which makes sense for my own personal journey. It truly is bittersweet, but it has served its purpose. But you yourself, have also since we met had a podcast that you invited me to come on. And sunsetted that podcast, started a new podcast, started a business. So let's talk about it.

Robb Conlon 03:34

Sure. Well, you mentioned that, you know, sunsetting a podcast No, originally you and I met when I had you as a guest on recruiting hell, which was my podcast that I made during the pandemic, to help the world get back to work. And I thought, okay, I can go be a content creator and things like that. Welcome. Everybody did that. Let's get one of the unintended consequences of starting that show was we actually helped a lot of folks get some jobs, we found over 1 million, sorry, one and a half million dollars in Job salaries and benefits for people. Plus it got me plugged into an incredible network on LinkedIn. So I'm so happy that I I started that but much like every customer journey, every business journey, there's a beginning and there's an end and sunsetting this show for you. I know exactly what you're going through because sunsetting recruiting Hell was a very emotional moment because it was one of those things that when I had very little going for me in my life, that was it was one of those things and I know that you have a ton going for you right now with your business journey, but it taking away something that's been kind of one of the main engines, if you will, for a while. That can kind of hurt so you know, for sunsetting recruiting Hell was what's necessary because I had lost passion for it. And I don't think for you it's changed a passion thing. It's just the the mission has changed, if you will, as to what you're doing so she said her purpose, and we would give her that Viking funeral, you know, on a burning boat. Right? But, but that's kind of where I went with my show. And, you know, it was, it was kind of a sad thing. I actually, not too long ago remove the bumper sticker for my car, because I replaced it with my new company logo. And it's like, oh, okay, like, it's, it's kind of this, like, not quite paving over, but like, upgrading almost in this case. And I think that's a great way to look at it for you as well. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 05:33

yeah, you're right. And I haven't looked at it. Like that. It's, but as many entrepreneurs will say, there are seasons, you know, seasons to business, there are seasons to life, and we have to, you know, recognize it. First off, if we don't recognize it, we get stuck, right, we get stuck, and we can't move on from that. So it's it is time. And, you know, I've had a lot of people, you know, come up to me, as I've launched my business, I've talked about this, you know, love your sales, people are like, Wait, I thought you were an HR lady. And I'm like, Well, I was, I am at, you know, my core. HR is part of every business. But for the last decade, I have been on the sales, side consulting, you know, HR, you know, for HR, I suppose, it'd be the right thing. So, you know, now it's time for me to, to move forward and no longer, you know, I guess, branded myself as the the HR expert. So

Robb Conlon 06:41

you can always keep that going a little bit. A lot of times I tell a lot of folks out there that I am. I'm not a founder and entrepreneur, I'm a salesperson in disguise. But that's one of the you know, we share that skill in this case. And I think for, you know, a founder led company, which is what yours is like, just like mine is, as a founder led company, you have a very good skill set that you can, and I use the word masquerade in a way of like playing in a different role, not you know, being shady or anything like that, you know, you can put on that different face and say, Hey, today, I am your HR person. But I'm actually, you know, I'm a salesperson at heart. But today, I'm HR today, I am your marketing person today, I am your IT department, things like that. And I've had to wear a couple of those hats lately, that's for sure. So

Leighann Lovely 07:33

let's talk about that. So let's you you, you know, you had an amazing podcast. And now you have a new amazing podcast. But let's let's talk about you know, you, you started that journey, because you were you're experiencing something, you know, most people who start a podcast, whether unless it's really a b2b, you're in this company, you're doing it for that company, they start but, you know, unless it's that they start a personal podcast, it's usually driven by something you're experiencing something that's bothering you, or a personal message you want to get out. You were experiencing something when you started recruiting? What? What was going on that, that you went, I got to start this podcast,

Robb Conlon 08:23

you know, it was, it was one of those things where if I look back at it now, I was not, I was not happy with who I was, I was not happy with where I was in life, I was not happy with how the world worked in this case, and I needed to teach myself the new way of things working, if you will, you know, my, my folks used to always tell me when I was, you know, younger and looking for jobs and things like that, play the game, play the game. It's like, well, the game is kind of broken mom and dad, like, I don't want to get to generationally, you know, like snarky here, but like, okay, Boomer, you know, like that kind of thing. But like, but applying for a job or grabbing a job was very different than in years past 20 3040 years ago, you would walk into a department store and say, Hey, I'd like an application and things like that. Well, when I started recruiting, how Yes, online applications existed, you really didn't go into places to get things like that. But it was such a frustration to do them. Things like Taleo and workday and like I still get a little fired up when I talk about these these application codes because I hate them. I literally hate them so much. Like it like the user experience design is terrible. The the fact that I've entered things twice, come on guys, like it's at the time it was your 2019 and things like that. It's like this shouldn't be this way. So the essence of recruiting how it was distilled out of a joke I made to my My wife one night after being incredibly frustrated one day of job hunting, and it was, it was a very emotional moment for me because it was kind of like, I don't want to say, you know, losing it or anything like that, but just kind of like that, like, ah, like, I'm really trying to hold it together here, and it's just not working. And so I made I made the joke to her that it's like being trapped in hell. And why wouldn't we be great. It's only been a podcast about what you call it recruiting how blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I kind of kind of waltzed off back to up here and just sat down on my computer. And I said, I got to actually make that. So I got this. I don't know if I still have it. I don't think I do. But I had this microphone that was just awful. At the time, it was it was some corded thing. It was like a lapel mic. That wasn't a lapel mic. It was ported. It said Blake, like Epson on it or something like that. And I just kind of held it in a tucked into it with a free recording software for an hour. And it was this rant. It was this rant of like, This is so stupid. This is so unfair, I actually found that that file, like two or like a year or two ago, it's still on my old computer. And it's like kind of unhinged, honestly, like you can feel the pain, you can feel the frustration and things like that. And I look because I listened to it as though we are really not in a good place when we were. So that was that was the impetus for the show. And it started. You know, I look back at my show. And I oftentimes we go back and and listen to episode one. And I listen to episode 40. And I listen to episode I think it's 68, which is the last one. And between those three, you can actually hear the entire evolution of the show, the way that I grew as a content creator the way as I grew as somebody who was you know, kind of taking this a little more seriously as like a business thing. And the the way it just started was literally sitting down and that rant. It got rerecorded, but it was split into three episodes, which is kind of great so often take to was much less emotional, if you will, and much more informative. Actually, episodes one and two were some of my most listened to episodes, because they were they may not have had the quality that people expect from a podcast nowadays. But they had great information for people so

Leighann Lovely 12:27

well. And they were probably very, they were probably very emotional and raw. Because you were you were feeling it. You were authentic.

Robb Conlon 12:40

Right. Yeah, I think a lot of people who say I'm this guy, I am this guy, this guy is me. So

Leighann Lovely 12:49

great, because we've anybody who's ever sat down and tried to apply for a job. And trust me, I've I, and it's been a really long time since I've really sat down and I found a job through applying and doing the application process. Because again, I'm an HR sales lady. I stopped doing that. And I started going directly to the hiring manager through connections in my network. The last job I think that I had, they came directly to me and recruited me directly in and I think that I mean, so it's been a really long time since I've been in that game. But I know what people go through. And it's so frustrating. Spreadsheets, people are like, well, let me see my check my spreadsheet to see where I am. And it's like, oh my god, if that it's a full time job. So yeah. So now let's talk about the next job you had after that. Because if I remember correctly, the reason that you ended up getting this opportunity was tied very closely to the work that you put in to the podcast that you created. Yeah,

Robb Conlon 14:08

you're absolutely right. Because as you know, I was putting that out on LinkedIn, and to your point a moment ago about touching your network and things like things like that, like I had heard that people could do that. But I didn't really know how to do it. Number one, much less virtually. Because again, a lot of this was happening right when you know right before COVID are right at the time of COVID. Just to give people a frame of reference here. The unhinged our rant was recorded on November 30 2019. The first episode of recruiting hell came out I want to say April 20 of 2020. So again, there was that time, but in that time you know, I was almost unemployed for most of most of 2020 in this case. So at the end of that year, I actually ran across something through promoting my show online and interacting with people on LinkedIn that the marketing director for a An agency that actually produce podcasts for businesses, you know, came across my path. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, there's somebody out here who actually like, like, these people are looking for people who know how to make a podcast, holy crap, I should probably, like, reach out to these people and say, Hey, maybe I can I'm maybe I'm your guy. And we had that interview, which was fantastic. got the job. And that was really kind of the the key turning point to where I said, Okay, I guess I'm kind of jumping into this with both feet, if you will, as far as taking a look at at content and continuing to network on LinkedIn, in the way that you described.

Leighann Lovely 15:45

That's awesome. That's, I mean, that's absolutely amazing. And you spend quite a bit of time with this organization. And then I remember when we talked, and you're like, I'm not with him anymore. And we talked again, and you said, I'm gonna get my own thing going?

Robb Conlon 16:02

Yeah, there were a couple couple steps in there, things went very well, initially, with that organization, you know, I got an employee of the month twice, fantastic. twice in a row, actually, we got to a quick upgrade to a higher position, things didn't quite work out the way that they were supposed to there. So we got busted back down to private, which wasn't as much fun. But at that point, and I will, you know, if somebody's listening to this, I'm sure you know, let's be authentic, let's be real. Like, if you get demoted at work, you kind of check out man, you kind of check out. And I I don't think I blame younger myself for that. I think if I had this, I was presented with the same thing today, I would probably just skip a bunch of steps that we're going to talk about here for all in a moment. But you know, it was one of these things where I just, you know, kept my head down, did my work and things like that and said, You know what, I've got to find something new. And so it was, it was good enough for the time being kept my head down. And then early 2022 rolled around. So during this time, I had a very good chance to meet a lot of wonderful people in the marketing and digital marketing world and who had their own shows that I managed and things like that. But if you fast forward to March of 2022, that's where this kind of all really comes to a head. There were some decisions made at my former agency that were we'll just call them unwise in this case, to, to say the least. And those unwise decisions resulted in a quarter of the company being let go at once. Now, you're an HR person, I do want to I do want to bounce this off of you. If you're firing people, do you call an all hands meeting and tell them that, hey, we're going to fire 10 of you, you might receive a phone call after this meeting?

Leighann Lovely 18:02

Oh, God, no, no, you don't do that.

Robb Conlon 18:06

But that's what happened. That's what happened. In this case, which I again, sometimes you learn how to build a better company by seeing what people do wrong. In this case, so that happened, we we got one of those 10 phone calls. In this case, we lost Russian Roulette, if you will. And it was about about noon, when I got that phone call on Thursday, March 3. And I said to myself, well, I can do one of two things. I can either literally just walk away, because what are you gonna do fire me? Just be like, Alright, see you later guys. Bye. Or I can take the time to shore up and do the best for people who are bystanders in this. And those will be my customers. I had 10 accounts at that point are 10 shows under management under seven accounts, I should say. And I had about five hours to tie off all of this production work and that not a lot of time per customer to be like, Hey, guys, here's what's going on. Plus, at that time, the business that I was working for did not communicate in any way shape or form to the customers that we were departing. A lot of them really liked their producers and things like that. Insofar as that one of my colleagues when they informed her to you know, talk to her customers, she I believe she dropped a four letter word in there, but she said you effing do it. You go girl, read it, read it. If you're listening to this, go, Hey,

Leighann Lovely 19:40

and here's the thing about that. Most companies, once they have terminated somebody, they don't say go to your customers and communicate to them. That is not absolutely positively not the way you handle a situation like that. Usually when you turn Need Somebody 10 minutes before you? Do, you cut off all of their access to their email to any proprietary information that they have? Because you these are people. And when people get really bad news, like, I don't know, how am I going to pay my rent? How am I going to pay my mortgage? How am I going to, you know, pay all of my bills, they have an extremely emotional reaction. Yes. And quite often, there are two people in the room or two people on the call, usually one of both sex, if there is, you know, a female boss that's doing this, they will have a male boss also sitting there, if you're a male employee, so that there can be no allegations of sexual misconduct, blah, blah, blah, if it's a female employee, and it's a male boss, vice versa, for all of that all of these precautions are all laid out in any HR department, if it has to be done virtually because you have a virtual workforce. The same goes is that you have a secondary witness, usually, if at all possible. Just in case, this employee comes back and tries to have any allegations of misconduct of the of the company. Never do you say, Hey, Rob, you're fired. Sorry, we gotta let you go. Now, if you could go and call all your clients, and let them know. I mean, unless they don't care, because now you are extremely emotional, extremely, at this point, because anytime you're dealing with the livelihood of somebody, there is emotion involved. And you're now putting your company at extreme risk for lawsuit. Because technically, even though you've just been terminated, as soon as they say go contact our employees, you are still acting as an employee of the company.

Robb Conlon 22:08

Right? They're not paying you for the time you're doing it. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 22:12

And if you go and tell the the client to eff off or do something to that client, that client is not going to sue you rob, they're gonna they're gonna sue the company. So

Robb Conlon 22:28

yeah. It didn't make a whole lot of sense. If they said like, hey, today's your last day, you know, at five o'clock, you're done, which, okay, fine. That's kind of like a caveat there. But like, again, what are you going to do? You know, it's one of those things, but the so what I did and I don't believe in, in poaching people, I don't believe in any of these things like that, you know, but one thing I did was I really loved my customers, they were, they were, it's a very strange thing in business and in sales and things like that. Like sometimes you actually kind of like get to be friends with your customers and that, yeah, it's really, it's one of the most unique relationships in humanity, I think of like, hey, we do business together. We really like each other. We're like, business friends, I guess, I don't know, which I don't know what the relationships called. But like, it

Leighann Lovely 23:17

should be that way. If you are a salesperson that is constantly in communication, yes, you have to keep a level of professionalism. And that person is paying you for a service. But it's inhuman for you to not become empathetic to their needs at times. And to their you know, if you call them and you're talking to them like this, and you see that they're having a bad day. It would be very inhuman for you to not be like, Hey, you're right, like is you're doing okay? And you know, if you just completely ignore that they're gonna be like, he's kind of an asshole like, he doesn't care he doesn't. I personally have clients like that I have clients who tell me everything about their life, everything. And as much as as much as I as much as I want to be able to be like, How can I help you? What can I do? I have to make sure that I don't get completely involved. Because at the end of the day, I still one day may have to fire them as a client one day may have to sue them if they don't pay me. One day may have to a million and they may have to fire me as their business. So you Yes, they can become friends. But there's always that business aspect of I like you a lot. But,

Robb Conlon 24:57

right, we have to keep some of these arias in place? Correct? Not all of them. But yeah, so you know, we that was tough because you know, where do you overstep where you not overstep but what I did was for, for as many of my customers as I could I sent them just a little LinkedIn message. And I said, Hey, I'm done. You know, here they are, they don't have any work in here anymore. I've done everything I can with the time I was allotted. And I, I think that there's a, because I could have just walked away. And there were colleagues of mine that did and I no shade thrown their way for walking away. What happened to the 10 of us was, was not kind of his case. And I don't blame them for being a really upset and be being like, No, this is your frickin problem. Now, like you deal with it, like you, you made the best deal with it. So the, you know, what I simply said to my customers was, you know, I won't be able to really contact you via the normal channels. And just in case, I can't get a hold of you, or you can't get a hold of me on LinkedIn. Like, here's my email address. And that was the only thing I presented to to any of them before leaving, and again, no solicitation, nothing like that. But once I had sent that last one about 5pm, that day, I said, All right, I am done with this company that I just got fired from. Cool, let's unplug everything. And then I said, I think I can do what they did. And I think I can do it better. And that was a slightly cocky moment. But also a nice, a slightly confident moment. And so I went to bed that night. And I said to myself in the morning, we are going into business and betting on ourselves. And so the next morning, March 4, command day 2022. We opened Westport studios, for the first time. And as I was doing this, again, when you open a business, you know, this Leanda the first day is like, there's like a trillion things to do. And I like where do I start? There's, you can read a book or two and like, what's a man? You know, there's a couple little like, manuals, but it's like, for the most part, it's like, well, I need a website, I need to talk to people, I need to get sales going, I need to like, get a domain name. You know, there's all there's a list of

Leighann Lovely 27:25

a million Yeah, number I need an accountant.

Robb Conlon 27:31

Right, exactly. So I'm working on this for like the first two or three hours of the day, and all of a sudden, my phone rings. And I'm like, I look at it. And it's one of my old customers. I go on No, like, he didn't either get the message or he's wondering about something and I can't really help him. Now, caveat here, I could have helped him because they left access to the systems and us for two

Leighann Lovely 27:57

weeks, two weeks, which is ridiculous, which is ridiculous. And And technically, technically, if you did help them, they could have come back to you and reprimanded you. Or you could have gone back to them and been like, you should owe me money for helping your client. I mean that all that gets like to be really messy.

Robb Conlon 28:25

Messy, messy. But so this phone rang and bad back to the access thing for just a moment. Like, I also looked at how these things were stored on the drive space that we had access to. And again, I would never ever damage somebody's business. But I did a couple little clicks to see what could happen. If somebody had had the mind to just sink the ship, they could have, they could have just wiped it out. Because I now know because I for a time use the same type of file system. I now know that had I just gone and wiped everything out that it would have been a mess to get back. And, again, no hostility on this but just like you play you pay people to hack your your, your website, sometimes as a company, right? Like, is our website secure, right? But just looking at that going oh my gosh, there's like there's 100 customers data on here. There's there's 1000s of episodes of podcasts that could be gone with the click of a button. See

Leighann Lovely 29:32

now you and I have to have a conversation to make sure that I'm doing everything right and then

Robb Conlon 29:37

it's all good things you don't know as a brand new entrepreneur. Right? Exactly, exactly. And actually I'm fixing part of one of my mistakes of where I got in with like data storage at first right now it's actually I had to pause part of it while we're on this recording because it takes a lot of my internet connection but But enough of that, you know again, never would even as as upset as I was would never even consider harming somebody's business like that. No, no, no, not at all. The two wrongs don't make a right. But like just seeing that there was like, the big red button to hit was like,

Leighann Lovely 30:10

Oh my god. So,

Robb Conlon 30:12

back to that phone call. Yeah, lots of mistakes. Back to that phone call, though. It's turned out it was one of my customers. And I said his name is His name is James Robert Leigh. He's a wonderful guy. He's amazing. If you're not connected with him on LinkedIn, or something like that, go find JR. He's incredible. I pick up the phone and say, Hey, James, Robert, how you doing, man? And he goes. So Rob, my team told me I needed to call you and I'm part of he's like, in the back of my mind, like crap. This is really actually about something he needs. He's like, he says, they said, We should move our show to you. And like back of my mind, like my little little like, lizard brain is going. He said, What? Like, and I said, you want to move your show to us? And he goes, Yeah, what's gonna cost? And, again, voice in my head? Dude, we've been in business for three hours. I don't even know what my website is like, pricing. What's that? So. So I threw out a number for him. I just wrote a number. I'm like, hey, maybe we could make it work at this. And he's goes, Great. See, on April 1, I was like, Oh, okay. So now I had a side hustle at that time with another, another customer. And I'm like, now I got two customers. Now I got 4000 bucks a month coming in and revenue. And then like, this is day one, this is our three. And so I'm looking at this going. This might actually work. I have a lot of stuff to do. Yeah, that was it was a very like, a moment right after it. And so that was a very humbling moment, to number one have been sought out so quickly. But it was a moment that was repeated for every single one of my former customers.

Leighann Lovely 31:56

So you didn't have a non compete of any kind put in place.

Robb Conlon 31:59

They had a non solicit in place. They solicited you, they solicited me, you know, it's one of those things is I really, I took it to an attorney, I took it to it was a little bit laughable, because this this particular non non solicit was four sentences long and did not have the company name on it. And was not drafted by an attorney. To which my attorney said, Is this really it? And I said, Yes, it is bred, because this isn't worth the paper it's printed on. So now again, I don't believe in poaching people's customers, but I if they want to walk in the door of my shop, I'm all for that.

Leighann Lovely 32:39

And it comes it boils down to one simple thing. Service, great service and relationship. You You proved to them that you were capable. And despite the fact that you had no team, you had no business name. You had no website? Name that was it. Oh, you had you did have the name, okay. You had a name. They were they were willing to hitch their wagon to you, because they knew you were capable of servicing them. And you had the relationship and that outweighed any other concerns that they could possibly have. And that's all that it boils down to. Because when when it when you're working with a company, and people get so hung up on an I work with small entrepreneurs, I work with people who have been in business for a long time. And this is where people who are in marketing, like will completely go like bonkers with me. And, and I'm like, they're like, oh, yeah, you have to have a business name that really has a statement, you know, you really got to make sure that your business name is in line and people understand it and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I beg to differ. I'm like, Yes. Is it important when you're out there marketing? Yes. But when you start a business, it's not about the business. It's not or it's not about the name of the business. It's not about your logo and marketing. Yes, fine. I understand. It is when you get to the sound of the marketing portion. But when you're starting out people get so hung up on Oh, what is my business name going to be? What is my logo gonna look like? What is my website going to look like? None of that matters. In the first like, very beginning when you are solopreneurs selling a service. What matters is your reputation and the relationships that you have people will flock to you. If you have a network of people who know you, like you and trust you. Yes, that's it. And

Robb Conlon 34:53

it's so funny because you know I I love my brand I feel my brand is very much in line with The way I want to run my company and things like that, and again, as a founder let you know. It's named after the street. I lived I live on the bike my wife came up with that. She's like, why don't you call it Westport? And like, that's pretty damn good. So let's let's go with that. But it's one of those things where it's been a very interesting journey of evolving that brand from Robins Westport westward as Rob to Westport is Rob and Adam and Kristen, and Abby and Emma and Isaac now, and there's, there's a half dozen of us now that this is all, like, if somebody asks them, you know, who do I work who you work for? You say, I work for Westport studios now. And that's a really nifty transition. But you have to really game that transition tightly, if you will, because a lot of times, you know, I'm still the primary salesperson here. I'm still the person that people you know, bring, you know, Hey, Rob, I've got this person who may want to meet you. And it's been a very interesting shift from the brand is Rob Rob is the brand to just peeling away from that ever so slightly, and kind of layer by layer. Of now the brand is Rob, the brand is not quite all Rob, Rob is is part of the brand, that the you know, incremental things back towards, you know, we are Westport Studios, which I kind of like, a little bit more anyway. So

Leighann Lovely 36:17

well, and that's hard for some people, some people, you know, go into business, and they're like, and I can't let go of this, I can't let go of that. But you are a true, you are you've become a true business owner, and not a solopreneur or just simply an entrepreneur, you are now a business owner. Right, have a successful business. And so now I have some questions about that. Go ahead. So as you got those clients rolling on, when did you know that it was time like, okay, we're scaling, I'm growing? When did you know it was time? Like I need to? I need to hire? Well. And you're a little bit different? Because you, you, you, I'm assuming you could you had two clients like right then? Right? You needed people to help. So when was that that you hired your first employee? When was it that you hired a bookkeeper? How did that growth happen? Growth

Robb Conlon 37:20

has been really interesting in that I love that you use you ask this question, because this is a super HRV kind of thing, right now, because one of the interesting things is, is it costs me a lot more to produce, like per podcast to produce one podcast than does produce 10 podcasts, there's a lot of stuff that overlaps on that, you know, there's there's a baseline cost of running the business, and then each additional customer you stack on makes better use of that baseline. So when I started this off, I really did, I didn't necessarily do the fiber deal. But it was one of those things of like, hey, I need to get XY and Z done for people. And I'm going to use resources that are not as permanent in this case. Now again, they the nice thing is that they've become permanent. But they are they was generally all just like contract project work initially, like, hey, I need you to make these two videos. They are a minute and a half long. And please make cuts here, here and here. You know, things like that. And so I started off with with Abby, who is my longest tenured colleague here, she's fantast. I just started doing a quick meeting. She's She's delightful. She's a student at Concordia here in Nozaki County, but Abby did some design work for me right off the bat, because I asked a connection of mine. I said, Dude, I don't know how to do graphic design. I can write, okay, I can mix audio. I can fumble through video, but I don't know how to do this design crap. And I said to him, his name's Greg. So Greg, is there anybody at your university? Who's looking for a job or, you know, super part time? And he goes, Yeah, let me go to the comms department. That sounds like where this should go. And sure enough, I got one email. From a wonderful young woman. Her name is Abby. She is now the student body president at Concordia University. She is incredibly successful. She's graduating this year. I'm super proud of her. I am so happy she's come on along. She has designed some of our most fun brands for this. And she's and again, a lot of this was like, hey, I need you for two hours, like this month at first. And so again, like this, these little project based things were really, really far few and far between. But now, you know, she and I talk basically have a one on one every two weeks in this case, but there's usually two or three things going on right now. And again, she doesn't work, you know, 40 a week or anything like that for me, but you know, she'll put in 567 hours and it's these, these sort of partial full because and I should say, to folks who are listening who are in HR and things like that, I believe in what I call a thriving wage. And this is something that's very deeply ingrained in me is that for much of my life, I worked for a wage that was underneath what I would say even not to say poverty level, but like, we couldn't do a whole lot with it, it was called Well, we can pay the pay the rent, and we can pay the power bill, and we can buy groceries. And that's pretty much it. And so that you can call that I suppose, a living wage. But is it really living if you don't get to have any fun or do anything else? No. So I believe in, I think it was FDR who came up with this concept of a thriving wage. So the minimum wage at Westport studios, so long as you're not on a, like a 90 day probationary period is $30 an hour. 30 bucks an hour. Wow. Because I believe in making sure that other people thrive to one of our core values at this company, is that the company works for all of us, not just those in charge. And that's, that's the greatest way I can show that to people is that, yeah, I could pay everybody 1250 an hour, I get lesser work, I'd have unhappy people, I'd have people bitching at me all the time about their wages. Or I can pay them a thriving wage, and help them try to focus on their development, and making themselves better and doing more as in like, Hey, can you do you think you can do this thing that is upcoming, you know, we're gonna pay you for it, obviously. But like, I'm really excited to see what you do with this brand, or, Hey, edit this audio this way, this time? What do you think, you know, so you get a lot more buy in. And this is for anybody who's in the in the HR realm. I learned from one of my former companies that I worked at that if you pay top, top third, you get some hella good talent, man. It's absolutely,

Leighann Lovely 42:01

and I'm in awe. First of all, because often people get to a certain level, a certain level or a certain threshold. And I'm not saying that you've gotten there yet. You know, it's usually when you get to you. I guess, I don't really know what that threshold is, is also and again, I don't want to pick on the age, you know, I really don't want to pick on No, you know, play the ageism card or whatever. But people who have experienced what you just talked about, you know, working at just that minimum of surviving, not being able to experience, you know, the, the going on vacations when you want to and being able and I I've experienced both, I've experienced just being paid enough. I've experienced working at a company where, you know, I kept getting promoted, but they were like, Yeah, we can't quite give you an increase yet. And I'm like, okay, so this promotion doesn't come with a wage and right, like, is that really a promotion? And then it was okay, we're gonna, we're actually gonna give you more responsibility. It's not a promotion, but and it's like, and eventually when I said, Well, I'm going to leave, and they're like, Well, why? I'm like, I, I've been here for three years, you've given me double the amount of work. And my pay has never gone up. And you're surprised?

Robb Conlon 43:32

Yeah. Good work should not be rewarded with more work.

Leighann Lovely 43:36

So at all, and then there's been jobs that I've had that I've made a ton of money. and been like, Oh, my God, why? Why are they paying me this much? And somebody's like, because you deserve that much. Because you work hard, because you're, it's not that much. And I'm like, oh, it's not. Because then I hear what other people and again, I know, I'm, you know, I'm in the industry, and I'm like, I'm finally being paid what I'm worth, yes. So for you to remember, for you to offer the opportunity for people to come in, learn, to have a voice to get the experience and to pay them in a way that allows them to still be able to, you know, thrive financially. That's amazing. Props to you. Because it's really easy for an entrepreneur to be like, Oh, I, I, I want to keep all this money for myself. Right? Because we're still you know, I mean, for me right now, I'm still in the feast or famine either I'm like, oh my god, I got a really good you know, this is really good client. I'm making a lot of money. And then I'm like, Okay, I gotta shove all this money away. And then I'm like, Yeah, but I gotta pay this person. I'm gonna try to Heroes least as possible, because I really got to keep that money just in case. It's, it's really easy to get into that mentality of, well, I didn't always get paid well. Right? You got to people have to stop thinking that way and start thinking in the way of pay them for what they're worth. do right by them now. And they will do right by you.

Robb Conlon 45:28

Yeah. And you know, this harkens back to one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was formed from a retail manager I used to work for he ran one of the most, most, the highest sales amount. Walmart's in Wisconsin. Interesting gentleman got paid a lot. Decent manager, decent manager. Well, one of the things he told me, I didn't get a lot of one on one time with him. One of the things I remember that stuck with me big time, was that investing in people is incredibly important at the beginning, because he told me that at that store that we both worked at, that it cost the company $3,000 to train a new cashier before they even scan one can of soup. And so I took that forward to say, you know, what, I saw what a revolving door that front end of cashiers was, I was the cashier supervisor. It was just like you'd have sometimes you'd have people last a day or two. And it's like, well, that you just flushed three grand down the toilet. And I'm looking at this for my own business of like I you know, training and onboarding and hiring and things like that. This is super important, because I can't afford to do that when you're a multibillion dollar corporation. Sure. 3000 bucks is a pinprick but like, but I can't do that. That's why I believe in investing in my people actually have a meeting that I am cooking up tomorrow with a connection of mine on LinkedIn to bring him in as a coach for my team to say, hey, here's how you make podcasts better. Here's how you edit better, here's how you what you can listen for, here's how you can, you know, make better and more enticing video and things like that. And I think that that's, you know, not only does that benefit me, they sit down, you know, he sits down with me. But if I have my team there with that, that's, you know, because I have to be careful too. Because, you know, if you have contractors, and if you're having people, you know, you got to follow the rules of the state, which I do. But it's one of those things where if I can just have them tag along and pay them to be at that meeting, like, they're gonna get so much out of it, even if I'm just asking the questions. So to, to go back to what you had asked earlier, I apologize, really a little bit windy on that first part, but like, what eventually then happened with, you know, bringing in additional people was that one of the things that I do not like to do, and if my team listens to this, it'll be really funny is that I just can't stand reading or whatever we call our episode blueprints. It's basically the layout of all the content, I just, I haven't had a ton of practice at it. I'm not very good at it. I, I have a, I have a different skill set. I can do it in a pinch. But I actually tapped a very good friend of mine, who had spent most of his life as a warehouse worker. And he is writing for me now. And you're like, what, what will what does what does a guy who drives a forklift have in common with writing? Well, he's always been a very good guy, he was great in English class, and he always has had a panache for storytelling. And it's kind of funny because we, we, when we were in college, we'd play Dungeons Dragons all the time, he would read the Dungeon Master telling the story for the rest of us to play with. And it's been really interesting to see him grow and evolve as writer, he's now a completely freelance writer, he works for me 35 hours a week, but he still goes out and blogs for other people that started his own business, which is incredible. At some point, you know, I'm gonna reach a point where I need him 40 hours a week, it'd be like, dude, just come on board. I don't know if that's as a contractor or as a W two. But that's, you know, that's I brought him in. And then over time, we found different ways to streamline our operations inside of the company. And that that oftentimes meant that, that Abby and Adam, who's my buddy, and our writer, and myself kind of had to work as a trio like, Hey, we're making this video. Like, after you make the frames, Adam, you edit the video, I'll slap it together and make everything you know, make it look great. But we found that earlier this year, that we could bring a whole bunch of things in house with some special tools that we have to edit these things. And we grew to a point where eventually we had so many customers now, you know, we've got about 12 In this case, that my time during the day is not best spent making videos or audio or things like that. So we hired Isaac, who is our audio and video engineer. And so it's then this wonderful little kind of like, almost like leaping onto a new platform kind of thing. Like if this other platforms to crumble away, you know, you're kind of jumping to that next platform and on that next platform is that next person. And so that HR has been kind of a challenge for us. Because, you know, it seems like having people being contractors is kind of at odds with the some of the things that I've preached earlier about making sure that people are taken care of, and things like that, because it doesn't include health insurance or anything like that. It's, it's a goal. It's a big goal, because that's if I can't take care of the people that work for me, that's a big problem. And somebody I met recently at a conference says, I need my dreams to be big enough to fit everybody else's dreams inside them. But

Leighann Lovely 50:53

you've done I mean, one, I believe that everybody, everybody has a superpower within them. And sometimes that is being a forklift driver. Totally. Sometimes that is a hidden, you know, hidden, something that they just have not had the opportunity to express because sometimes your path doesn't take you down, meeting the right person at the right time, or getting the job that you want at that moment, because you have to pay your bills. And that means becoming a forklift driver. And the fact that you're willing to see that superpower and give them the opportunity is amazing. You know, my husband, for instance, he works, he works, he's a printer. And the other day I said to him, I, I cannot for the life of me create a video, I am not good. I can I can create contact content. I hate editing it. I mean, I used to like it. But you know, after you do it 100 times, you're just like, Okay, I'm over that. I'm a little over listening to my own voice. I used to like it because it was you know, I get to listen back to it. And anyways, video, I've never done video. And so I engaged my husband in it. And I said, Will you do this? Now my husband is a DJ, he's in the DJ world. Okay, they do videos, they create videos, he creates the artwork for his for the music that they produce. And he's very, extremely talented. So I gave him all this, all this junk, all these recorded things. And I said, just, I need to get something out on YouTube about my business. And it would have taken me hours upon hours upon hours to do this. I gave it to him. And like 20 minutes later, he goes come on into my into my studio, and I was like, Okay, why? And he goes, Well, I want to show you the video. And I'm like, what, I just emailed that stuff to you. And he goes, Yeah, I put it all together. I'm like, wow, how, like, how did you do that? And I walk in there, and I listened to it. And I'm like, Yeah, I like it. And he goes, and I'm like, It's too long, isn't it? And he goes, Yeah, way too long. And I'm like, okay, and he goes, I told you that you can't have it be people stop watching if this, you know, video if you put it on YouTube, and, and so he's giving me all these suggestions. And I'm like, Oh, okay. And he put music in the background. And he puts, you know, all the stuff that I'm just like, you know, and then he goes now and so we fixed it. And he goes now when you have it put on YouTube, you have to do this because it's royalty free music and it's blah, blah. And I'm like what? Because you have to make sure that you it's royalty free. But if you don't, you know put who created it, then YouTube will bob and I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. He has a superpower. But he can't. He can't go to a company and be like, Hey, I have a superpower. I've never done it in a corporate setting. But I can do this. And I'm like, yeah, how do you how do you give somebody the opportunity?

Robb Conlon 54:08

It's nice, right? I know.

Leighann Lovely 54:10

And the fact that you've done that, it that's awesome. And one day, one day when I have you know my thriving 20 plus 10 plus team and I you know, have to have somebody edit my podcast. He has all the tools. He has all the tools. Instead of hiring somebody else, I will probably just go okay, you're gonna work in my business, and you're gonna create all of my content, because he has all the tools to do everything. And he can do the DJ thing that he loves to do or find something else to do at maybe he doesn't want to work in my business. Probably not. He probably doesn't want me as his boss but sometimes

Robb Conlon 54:55

to making your hobby your your work can be he'd be a big thing. And it's funny, you mentioned that because that's exactly sort of what I've done. For, you know, you mentioned bookkeeping earlier is that that's always been, you know, fractional, fractional fractional. Well, my wife's really good with numbers, like, it's one of those things where it's like, it's her thing of like, she's the queen of budgeting to the point where, when I talked about those hard times earlier, when I was out of work, and everything like that, we actually gained money in our bank accounts. Like, we cut things so hard to the bone that we gained money in bank accounts on one income and an unemployment check.

Leighann Lovely 55:33

Wow, so she needs to come over to my house, and she

Robb Conlon 55:36

will, she will get your stuff straight, that's for sure. Well, that's fine. You know, I bring her in. And actually, she and I just had a nice afternoon on Saturday, where we went through the books of the business. And the neat part about that was was that when we looked at everything that was, you know, kind of at the end of the day, you know, we're we're looking at good margins and things like that, and being able to say, like, okay, we're actually running this business in a decent way. Now, again, I'm not an accountant. She's not an accountant, you know, just want to make sure we have enough set aside for taxes and whatnot, but like, taking the business to the next level of Hey, is it stable, hey, can run for a time without me out in the income and things like that, and hiring very slowly. I'm a big, big, big believer in hire slow fire fast. As far as you know, bringing people into the organization. And yes, when you're the founder, and that's your wife and things like that. It's kind of like, get over here. But at the same time. It's been, you know, being a little bit selective with that, and I've made mistakes in hiring. I, we had, we had one gentleman and this is no shade at him. This was me getting this was me taking him and putting him in the completely wrong position. 100% my fault, there's, there's no way like, almost set them up, I would say 90% set them up to fail. Like that, like that. Just, I still feel bad about that. Because he was going through a real rough stuff at that time. And we'll just say that the month of May and June here. We're really interesting. From a people standpoint, just because like, I can't I can't fault somebody for having a massive family event, and not getting things done. Like, I just can't. So it's it's one of those things where we learned that sometimes you have to really seek out that one talent that people have, like you mentioned that superpower, right? And that is what you hire for your hire truly for that skill set. Not just the the attitude. Yeah, in this case.

Leighann Lovely 57:44

Well, we are coming to time, I could talk to you forever. But Rob, there are no words to thank you for taking the opportunity to, again, wrap up the entire series of Let's Talk HR. It has been a wild ride. You helped me launch this, you have helped with advice throughout the entire podcast. And it's and it's life. And I you know, from the bottom of my heart, I truly appreciate that. And you have also helped with and this is my first real announcement. And there will be announcements. You know, coming out soon, shortly, even before this actually episode launches about my new podcast that will be coming out. The love your sales podcast that is tied directly to my business that launched in January, which is going to be much more in line with my brand still bringing in my quirky personality, and you know, antics and rants about random stuff that I always seem to bring in, in, you know, the people that I interview with. But, again, Rob, Your journey has been, like many entrepreneurs, not a straight line. But a successful one. And I thank you again, for being a friend. Oh,

Robb Conlon 59:17

absolutely, absolutely. And it's, it's neat to see these new chapters come up because every one of them has been better than the last in this case. And it's just, it's fun to see this growth over time for you and I'm really, really happy with what you've you've made for yourself so far. And don't ever get too hard on yourself with this because this whole entrepreneurship thing is is a lot like kind of hrs you have to do it right. Not everybody has the the roadmap Yes, there are best practices out there. But what are best practices may work for some but not for all so I know that you'll find you'll get your bag as they say this case. And you know, at the same time I'm looking at it myself and I think I came to the Just before we hit record here too, I was like, You know what, at some point in time I'm going to step into a true like sea level role at my company. I might need a fractional.

Leighann Lovely 1:00:10

So I'm here I know yeah

Robb Conlon 1:00:13

absolutely fantastic so I appreciate you my friend thanks for having me on and thanks for bringing me on to again bring this full circle and closer off.

Leighann Lovely 1:00:21

Well this is LeighAnn lovely signing off for the last time of Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. Have a great day. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this wouldn't be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, company, podcast, customers, work, hr, case, business, started, rob, linkedin, pay, entrepreneur, recruiting, years, episode, westport, superpower, brand, abby

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Jill Lublin, an international speaker and author with expertise in publicity, networking, kindness, and referrals. Jill, a best-selling author of four books, including "Profit of Kindness," shares her passion for real-world publicity, emphasizing the importance of visibility and credibility for businesses. Learn about Jill’s latest book Guerrilla Publicity and the misconception that publicity is only for celebrities. What an amazing conversation with Jill!

Contact – Jill

Website - https://jilllublin.com/

Free Gift - publicitycrashcourse.com/freegift and jilllublin.com

Website - http://PublicityCrashCourse.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

I have an amazing guest today. Jill Lublin is an international speaker on the topics of publicity, networking, kindness and referrals. She is the author of four best-selling books including get noticed get referrals and co-author of guerrilla publicity and networking magic. Her latest book profit of kindness went number one in four categories. Jill is a master strategist on how to position your business for more profitability and more visibility in the marketplace. She is CEO of strategic consulting firm, and it has 25 years of experience working with over 1000 people plus national and international media, Jill teaches a virtual publicity bootcamp and consults and speaks all over the world. She has spoken on many stages with luminaries such as Tony Robbins, Jill also leads a conscious kindness community, visit the link below in the show notes to get your free gift. Or you can go to Jill lubalin.com. Jill, I am so excited for you to join me today.

Jill Lublin 02:25

I'm thrilled to be here, Leighann and thank you so much for having me. Why don't you start out by telling me and the audience a little bit about yourself? Well, I know you did this great intro for me. And I would tell you, you know, my some of my proudest accomplishments are my books for them. In certainly helping so many literally 1000s of small business owners get more publicity. And I look at it as spreading your light to the world, your gift to the world. And so that's exciting. And I run a conscious kindness community. And those are the things I'm I'm happy about and proud of. And, you know, like everyone, I've had many steps along the way, some switchbacks, some fall downs, you know, and most importantly, doing what I love and loving what I do now. And that's awesome. I love that phrase, loving what he or say that again, loving what I do, and doing what I love, that's, I absolutely love that. Because what if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. And that, you know, I recently went to an event and the speaker spoke about finding your true purpose and being able to match that purpose. You know, align that with your life. And if you can truly identify what your purpose is, then, you know, you everything else kind of falls into place. And it's, it's completely true. So, absolutely love that. So you are a best-selling off author for books for books. You're a speaker, you're a teacher, let's talk about it.

Jill Lublin 04:02

So, you know, the thing that I'm big on has is helping people get real world publicity because listen, a big PR agency is going to cost you four to 5000 a month and more a month and more. And you know, I know how to get this stuff done in looking like the big guys as I like to say but without spending a fortune. So that's that's really always been my jam and I stayed in my lane I you know, I believe and liked for me stay in my lane. That doesn't mean I mean, I'm multiple interests and but I've just I've just found a groove, you know, and I think sometimes when you find a groove, it's a good thing to keep that groove going.

Leighann Lovely 04:46

Absolutely. So your most recent book. That's the publicity, the Gorilla. Yes. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that without giving away any trade secrets. Oh, you know, I

Jill Lublin 05:03

Love gorilla publicity. That's this one here. Yeah, it's actually my third book to be exact. But the truth is, it just came out as a third edition again. So every time a new book comes out in a new edition, I consider it new. Right? Right. And it's filled with great, easy things to do to get your publicity done using time and imagination. And to do things the right way, how the media appreciates it that gets you seen, heard and paid, using publicity as a primary strategy. So great fun to write. And it's part of the Jay Conrad Levinson, guerrilla series. For those of you familiar with guerrilla marketing, this one's called guerrilla publicity. And it's really the focus of get it done publicity. I'm, I'm a practical kind of woman, I want people to get things done, to have ease with it to be consistent and persistent in the marketplace with publicity. So gorilla publicity is oriented toward those actions.

Leighann Lovely 06:07

So let me ask you a question. When I hear of publicity, I think, well, you know, publicity is for the, the rich and the famous for the stars for the public speakers for so let's let's talk about publicity at its at its core, you know, who are your target audience? Who are the people who need publicity?

Jill Lublin 06:29

How about listening right now all of you need publicity. If you're a business person, if you're in business, whether you're a solopreneur, or have one or two people working with you, which by the way, is most of who I work for. The reality is, people need to hear of you. Because you can be doing great work what, you know, whatever area you're in. And if no one knows about you, then what good is it you know, so, to me, that's fine, if you want just be heads down all the time. But if you want an easy way to attract, and that is it's an attraction, strategy, and monetize as you publicity monetizes you multiplies you and magnifies you. So that's why I love it. Because it's really about, you know, kind of a gift that keeps on giving. And what's beautiful is that the reality is, when you stand out in the marketplace, because you got an article, it could be in your small town newspaper, in your chamber commerce newsletter, it could be radio, TV, in blogs, and podcasts, all of that matters, and everything counts. And so really, what I encourage everyone to do is create what I refer to as visibility building activities and put them into your calendar 30 minutes a week, if you do that, consistently 30 minutes a week, I promise you great results in your publicity.

Leighann Lovely 07:57

So that you intrigued me. I don't know if you saw my MeeGo okay, what is that? So what was the phrase that you just used? 30 minutes a week, you put? What How did you say

Jill Lublin 08:08

that? Visibility, building activities,

Leighann Lovely 08:11

visibility building activities. And so what is all entailed in that?

Jill Lublin 08:18

So one thing would be, go to Google Alerts, okay, Google Alerts and put your name in there. So that way, when you're spoken up in the press, you will know it, because sometimes, you know, something will get picked up, and you want to know it necessarily. So Google Alerts really helps handle that. And even more exciting in Google Alerts. For instance, when the Prophet of kindness came out, I put in the word kindness. Now I know when any of the media is talking about kindness and being a kindness expert, because I wrote the book on it. You know, I can comment. And the other piece of that is, by putting the word kindness in, do you know, I found out that world Kindness Day is November 13, I didn't know that before I wrote a book. So um, kindness. And what I would recommend to all of you is, put that phrase put that what you help others with, and that way, you know, when the media is talking about that, which is very helpful for creating more visibility, that's a great place to start with a very specific PR strategy.

Leighann Lovely 09:27

Very interesting. So, you know, I regularly google myself because I want to see like, where am I at in my, in my visible am I? And because of you know, because of the podcast because of you know, I'm everywhere you can you which is wildly weird, you know, as it's built up over time, but actuation it's really cool right where you can but to in order to drive it properly. What you just said was putting the phrase or alerts towards when people are talking about, for instance, you know, my business, fractional sales or that kind of thing. That is, is an idea that I never thought about so that I can understand what's happening in my industry and then shift or cater, you know, my marketing strategy, Marvin, Mike my publicity strategy to what is really becoming visible to the general public, right?

Jill Lublin 10:30

That's exactly it, you got it perfect. And, you know, to just broaden that, and like, in your case, you could use do sales you could do, you know, it doesn't have to be the word fractional sales, although that's very specific. So I always encourage people to think broadly, and then sometimes go very narrow, and that that's powerful. But no, there's multiple ways to, to wonderful to different aspects and showing up in publicity. And so I like to think I'd like you to think of yourselves like an octopus, you know, with beautiful tentacles, and that's you're reaching your tentacles into multiple places to be seen and heard. And, frankly, publicity builds that trust, and that like no factor that people think they know you, which is great. And they want to do business with you, and they see who you are. And they make good decisions on that.

Leighann Lovely 11:24

Right. And it's kind of creepy when people you know, think they know you. And I'm having a podcast you there's a lot of people who know a lot of facts about me, and I'm like, Wait, how do you know that? And I'm like, oh, yeah, right. Right. Right. And you listen to my podcast. Great. But that is totally true. And you do want people to feel like they know you. Because yeah, the know, like and trust factor. No. Hopefully they like me from listening to me, and maybe they hate me. I don't know, probably not gonna get business from that right.

Jill Lublin 11:56

Now, but you will, you know, frankly, engage people and that that's really what's most important here is engaging people to be engaged with you. It's really about oh, I call it the I've heard of her somewhere syndrome. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Luckily, yeah, I've heard of her somewhere. And that's what we want for each one of you. And the truth is, sometimes they won't remember where they've heard of you. Let's see. What's it at a local meeting? Was it at in a national article? Was you on TV or radio where you heard from on a podcast? The reality is, it doesn't really matter. What matters is they've heard of you somewhere. And when you get publicity, it will create that ongoing, powerful I've heard of you somewhere syndrome. You know, it's interesting Lambie, it teach a publicity breakthrough boot camp, and we do you know, every person is in there. We want to know, where did you come from? Did you hear me on lands podcast? Did you? You know, did you see something or saw me speak somewhere? And we do really ask and you know, what's fascinating to me, about 20% really that high? Up people cannot remember where they've heard of me. But they can view and that's all part of me somewhere. Right? And you know, sometimes it's a referral. Sometimes it's it's they did see me speak, just don't remember. But does it really matter? They saw an article they heard a podcast, right? And can you know, it's also good to know where people are coming from listener? I had a woman who sold 42 books and a 15 minute podcast, so wonderful. Is that right? So? Also want to know what what's working? Well,

Leighann Lovely 13:32

and has you ever? Our first meeting, we talked? And I think one of the first questions I was was Joe, hey, it's great to meet you. Weird. How did we connect? And both of us went? Um,

Jill Lublin 13:46

we don't know. Don't know.

Leighann Lovely 13:48

But we heard of each other somewhere. Exactly. It was probably through a, you know, a referral of somebody saying, Hey, you should check this person out. You guys should talk. But you're, you're so unbelievably Correct. There's so many times where names are thrown out there and you, you LeighAnn lovely, or Jill want your name to be the name that somebody heard of somewhere. Exactly. You know, I'm to the point where I'm like, Hey, if you write my name on a bathroom wall, that's okay. No, just gets a little weird, doesn't it? Okay. So I want to talk about you know, because we have a finite amount of time, I want to talk about the the kindness What did you call it? I was going to call it

Jill Lublin 14:37

called a kindness circle or kindness circle, kindness community,

Leighann Lovely 14:42

The kindness community. Let's I want to talk about this and and let me preface this by saying that the world needs that the world needs it ever more with so much negativity on so many different social platforms? Because people feel like they can Just be negative and harassing and, and having more people come together and say, Hey, let's, let's try to be kind, let's create kindness in our group I just commend you for, you know, talking about that and creating, you know, even just using that word reminds people that they need to be kinder to each other. So, now, let's talk about your kindness community.

Jill Lublin 15:33

So first of all, you know, when I wrote the prophet of kindness, I felt that whisper in my ear, I want you to do kindness circles, like that was a an instruction for me. And I was busy promoting my book. I mean, I'm an expert in publicity. And, frankly, I was getting on Fox News Network talking about kindness. I got on seven of them in the first 30 days of the book coming out. In Las Vegas, in Los Angeles, in San Francisco at CBS Morning News in Virginia, I mean, great stuff was happening. So I was busy promoting and frankly, spreading the message about kindness is what we were really doing. I've been in Ink Magazine and Forbes magazine twice talking about kindness in business, and what sort of what is its effect. But here's so here's the cool thing. Through all this, I thought I gotta get those kinds of circles going right. And then COVID happened, I thought, one now's a good moment, and, and actually started putting out the call, you know, come on, in, let's spend an hour with conscious kindness and help each other. And by golly, the first one 660 people showed up. And now we've got over 1000 people in the community, and we meet at the third Wednesday of every month, and we spend an hour, we have two networking circles, and everything's on Zoom. And 110 minute speaker, amazing people, I've had Marcy Shaima, who wrote Happy for No Reason and Chicken Soup for the mother's soul. And I have the gentleman who did the kindness diaries on Netflix, I've had amazing people who are in multiple environments of kindness. And we're going to celebrate what Kindness Day, November 13. We do that every year. And we celebrate kindness every day, through what I call conscious acts of kindness. And I always ask people just do one a day one conscious act of kindness a day, imagine the difference it would make in our world, like, Wow, and so again, third Wednesday of every month, please, I'm going to post for you and please put it in the shownotes. We invite your listeners to come it's completely free. And

Leighann Lovely 17:42

That's amazing. Because I've I you know, a past actually, I don't know if it was past guests or not, but I've had, I have somebody else who has actually created the kindness bucket, where it's a community that that intentionally goes out and, and makes comments on Facebook, it's a community, because they're trying to combat such negativity, you know, and that's it. Here's the funny thing about kindness, and about just creating doing one a day. You do that one consciously, once a day, within 30 days, maybe 40 days, you will start unconsciously doing that on a regular basis. And I will tell you that when even something as simple as somebody opening the door and holding the door open for me, it gives me that Oh, thanks. Like it puts a little smile on my face. Because it's somebody's thinking of somebody other than just themselves and in our society. As busy as we are as much as we're hustling. People get so absorbed and so and I'm not saying that people are mean oh, how dare you not open a door for somebody else. It's the world is busy. But for somebody to stop for a moment and be outside of their own head and recognize people around them and do those little things. It spreads so fast.

Jill Lublin 19:15

Yes, and you know, such simple acts like you suddenly it's opening the door for someone, it is smiling, having a smile down the street, sometimes I'm trying to smile at someone and they're I don't even know where they are. It's like, just smile back. It's really a simple thing. But even if they don't I know that I've done that. And perhaps that changed something. And of course we are kind just because right there's a reason it's just an act that comes from your heart and that is authentic and sometimes yes, it's gonna require something of you. Listen, my neighbor who I hardly knew and this is one of my things is get to know your neighbors. That's a common thing, right? It's such a simple thing, but so many of us actually don't even know our neighbors anymore and cluding me He who lived next door to this wonderful woman, and frankly, I found out her husband went into dementia, health dementia care. You know, and, and I just remember I found out she fell in her driveway. Okay, so I brought over food. We've been friends ever since we go out to dinner every week, we she makes me meal, she's a really good cook. We, you know, go out to lunch together. We just, we, we just help each other, you know. And it's really sweet. And it's amazing to me how many years I didn't know her and took something. But that something was me also practicing an act of kindness and reaching out, you know, I do think the busyness factor is such a big thing. So, you know, honestly, if I'm so busy, by the end of the day, I'll just look to see who can I send a nice text to, right? You know, who can I write a handwritten letter I actually have on my calendar, it's on my calendar. Every Monday, it says right to handwritten notes. Okay, now I have to do it on Monday. But by the end of the week, I will have written two handwritten notes to somebody. So that's something I don't know about you. But I love getting handwritten notes. Now,

Leighann Lovely 21:18

I yeah, I do I enjoy opening them. And I'm like, Oh, my god, somebody was actually thinking about me enough to sit down and actually hand write it versus just sending an email or a text or whatever that might be. And, you know, bringing up the neighbor thing,

Jill Lublin 21:32

I think, I think what we're talking about this, so I get this these cute, little I'm a cute, the happy face stickers, the happy face stickers. In my kind of circle, she sent this to me, just you know, a role of kindness of happy stickers, right? So when people ask me to do book endorsements and testimonials, which I get that requests a lot, I'll do it. And I'll put a little happy sticker on their envelope. So somebody who's in a mastermind, and he comes up to me goes, I can't believe you put that happy sticker on it, I really needed to see a happy face the day I opened your envelope, you know, and so it keeps going, right? It's just simple, fun, and not fun, or whatever things including a smile, including just make a difference. But go ahead. I'm sorry,

Leighann Lovely 22:18

No, and I was gonna say I think, you know, during COVID, I think that, especially for me and my community, I live with a lot of first generation homeowners. So they're, you know, in their 70s, some of them are even older than that. And, you know, I was going out to the grocery store, you know, when I needed to, but I would call my neighbors and say, Hey, I'm making a trip to the grocery store, do you need anything, and, you know, and they would email me back, they gave me a little list, and I would pick up what they needed. And I would deliver it, because they were trying to stay, you know, in their homes as much as possible, because they were up, you know, the higher risk. And that has just, I mean, they are so good to me, they are so good to my husband, my daughter, my daughter is five and I mean they every single holiday on her birthday, they come over and give her a hand delivered gift. I'm like, Wow, you guys are way over the top. But I mean, it we had moved in, right, right before COVID Hit like literally a couple of months before COVID head and it was like, wow. And we've just become so close. Because of that those small little acts of kindness. Like goes so far?

Jill Lublin 23:33

Oh, that's so beautiful. You know, the COVID did a very interesting thing for us that, you know, sort of a good news of it. And that was to, in my opinion, make us more conscious of those around us. And how could we reach out? How could we be more kind? How can we be more flexible? You know, I think it taught us that if you paid attention, and one of the things I talked about an in the profit of kindness is what I call the return on kindness principles, rocks, right? And one of those rocks is is compassion, like what you did right? And asking how can I help you?

Leighann Lovely 24:08

Yeah, absolutely. And that's that that is one of the rules of I think in business networking. It should always ask first, but if we then lay in the principle of kindness in into that, look at how powerful we could be as humans. Well,

Jill Lublin 24:27

that is the point it's like, imagine this, you're great already in business. Wonderful. Now add on that because guess what kind companies get more publicity. In everybody. I interviewed kind companies or the CEO or the main person. If they were kind guess what else? Everybody who worked for them was happier. The people, their clients and customers happier they were more profitable. Right and across the board. Everything was elevated in terms of measurement. It was due to kindness. Right? And

Leighann Lovely 25:04

I've talked with I've talked to people on previous episodes about, you know, having actually having an entire sales force at your fingertips as a business if you only treated your people extremely well paid them. Right you would and you know, treated them. With kindness, you have an entire, you have the ability to have your entire workforce, literally acting as little mini marketing people out there talking about oh, I love the company I work at Oh, really? What company do you work at? Oh, I work at XYZ company. Oh, should I come in work there? Oh, my God. Yeah, we're hiring. I mean, right there. That's simple sales pitch if, again, you know, and it goes on all different types of levels. Anyways, I digress. I'm not gonna get into that. But what I do want to know, a little bit more about your publicity bootcamp? How often? Do you do that? And how does that work? How long is

Jill Lublin 26:03

it? Oh, I my policy breakthrough boot camp is a get er done. Short days, I'm in to short, I think people are busy. And I want to honor that. So I don't go these long days, that just short focus, we have a media panel, like real people in the media, who actually tell our participants what works and what's hot and what's not. So that's really good. They actually get to pitch them. And everything is live and interactive. There's constant breakout sessions, I give people real things to do that are important for publicity messages. And, and we're, we're really focused on using publicity, to drive sales and to get leads and to create visibility, credibility, and trust in the marketplace. So it's all oriented toward that. It's all on Zoom. And it's very affordable. And I'm spilling all my secrets, and really empowering people to get their publicy done. And they're held like once a quarter usually.

Leighann Lovely 27:03

Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Because I think that any any business or any, any brand new business owner could use a better understanding of how to really hit the market hard, especially when they're on a budget, and to use that budget properly the first time versus having to reinvent the wheel multiple times to try to get it right the first time. Right.

Jill Lublin 27:31

Exactly. Exactly.

Leighann Lovely 27:35

Awesome. Well, awesome. So I have a question of the season that I would love to ask you, before we wrap up. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Jill Lublin 27:52

Hmm, well, certainly a time of I'll call it, hibernation, you know, I, I actually saw it as that. And I think those of us who were able to adjust and recreate, like, I put all my programs on Zoom. And I think what will go down in history books, of course, is the sadness of it. And, and yet the also the ability to see a new way. And I think that has happened in major companies now that they've got workforces that go, I like working from home, and I can be very productive. And I don't need to do things the old way. So to me, it's about turning the tables into new ways of doing things. And we have been now trained on Zoom, we, you know, are comfortable people are training, all kinds of things on Zoom yoga, and classes and healing and, and doing things business that we never did before. And I think we're far more efficient in certain ways. If you know, if you're able to use it, do it and recreate. So I think to me, that's been a big lesson, a big learning that we can do things differently. And that it's all possible.

Leighann Lovely 29:06

Yeah, that's absolutely I completely agree. You know, the world was sent into shock, but I think that we've proven that we are able to prevail, regardless of the circumstances. So it's awesome. So if somebody was interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Jill Lublin 29:29

Well, I would love for you to go not only to the kindness circles and come and join us, but also go to my free gift, which will be also posted in the show notes. It's my publicity Crash Course action guy and it's really fun more tips to get things done and also in it is an invitation to attend a live free masterclass with me where you get to ask questions and be present and get things handled for yourself so that that's what I'd love to give you And of course, Jilllublin.com You can find me too and just reach out. It would be great.

Leighann Lovely 30:07

Wonderful. Jill, thank you so much for having this amazing conversation. I really appreciate your time today and yeah, definitely check out I will put those those links in the show notes so you can go and check out you know, all of the things that that Jill just listed and get your claim your free gift. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

publicity, kindness, people, talk, book, jill, great, put, write, google alerts, create, love, podcast, community, work, marketplace, zoom, heard, visibility, happy

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Maria Kellis shares her insights on the significance of HR and the often-overlooked value it brings to companies. Drawing from her diverse background as an MIT graduate, international speaker, bestselling author, and business professional. Maria emphasizes the integral role HR plays in fostering employee engagement, motivation, and overall company success. She advocates for a non-judgmental approach to understanding individuals within a team, highlighting the importance of emotional and human support alongside business considerations. Throughout the conversation, Maria emphasizes the need for balance, self-leadership, and a holistic view of human potential in the evolving landscape of leadership and AI integration.

Contact Maria

Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariakellis/

Website – https://mariakellis.com/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Maria Kellis 01:57

Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 01:59

So why don't you start off by telling my art or the audience, a little bit about yourself, and you know who you are?

Maria Kellis 02:11

Absolutely. And to start with, I'm excited to be here, I feel that the conversation around HR is incredibly important. Because HR tends to have a bad rap. It's almost that they're the people that everybody says, Who cares about HR, or they're like, oh, we'll just use HR is like, it's a thing. And we forget the value that HR has in our lives in our companies, I believe that our companies are stronger, because of our human potential. In fact, a company can go down, because the employees are not working to sustain the company and the company can survive or thrive, because the employees care. And HR plays a central role in that. So I might my background is that I used to be an engineer, I graduated from MIT then I was in business. I actually graduated from Stanford School of Business. And at MIT. So I used to be in startups have always been startups, and we've always had hire people. And that's when my respect for hires came in. Because I realized that we, in the beginning, we always talked about the A players, and how to hire those. And I realize it's not just a player's team, everybody has a role. And it's not about looking at somebody as an individual, but looking at the team as a whole, that makes a difference in the company. So I have had my own personal journey that got me to be who I am today. And this journey has been, I'm gonna say difficult. In 2004, ended up being in a wheelchair. And I had to learn how to walk again, which is not exactly as easy as it sounds, while actually it's as difficult as it sounds. And I remember realizing that everything is a perspective. At the time, I had a tremendous amount of pain. And I realized, oh, I have a tremendous amount of neuropathic pain. So instead of thinking, I am broken, I realized, oh, I have something to work with. And I started saying that pain is not bad. It's just something I need to remap. And so I started remapping pain. I'm like, huh, that pain was hot. That pain was called that pain is movement. That means pain is done. hang out, that pain is falling out. Pain is hitting something because I didn't pay attention. That pain is way too close. But that's when I realized that when we make things good and bad, we are judgmental, and we're not really looking at what we have. So coming back to HR, when we look at people who say, well, that person is good, and that person is bad, well, are they? They're just people. Are they motivated to work? Do they have good heart? They have, like, realization? If they're there to clock in hours, okay, maybe I will agree with you. But if they're there to do work, it's not so much a employee prom, but it's really a management role. Did we train them properly? Did we give them all the resources they need? are we supporting them? Are we taking care of more than just the business side? Are we taking care of the human side? The emotional side? So all those questions are kind of a non judgmental way of looking at people and, and just really being human?

Leighann Lovely 06:09

Yeah, there's so much Well, first of all, I agree with everything that you just said. But there's so many nuances to a lot of what you said with, you know, nurturing, and it's really about putting people in the right seat on the bus, making sure that they were have the proper expectations for each human individual, we can't put somebody in a spot and expect, you know, a certain level of work if they don't have the proper training, the proper tools, the proper, you know, support, if we're not providing that to them as managers, right.

Maria Kellis 06:53

And I find that we, were I, I'm gonna just spell it out, we're in an age where AI is everywhere. And it's only the beginning, still AI more and more, it's going to be taking care of the repetitive analytical tasks that we may or may not need anymore. So we need humans to be humans more than any other time. And we need humans to be the strong humans that they are. So if we're just making them trying to replicate machines, like there are little machines that do things repetitively, it's not going to work. Because first we have tools that right now are supplementing that, and will become better. When I was in college, I remember I had written my thesis in a Mac, and the Mac crashed at the time. And, and I had to like I thankfully had a printout and had to retype the whole thing. So this does not happen anymore. Right? The we have cloud recordings and everything saved automatically and you don't have to remember to press Ctrl S it just saves and things like spell checking. We have Grammarly and we have native tools in Word and Google Docs. I use Google doc these days, but English, and we have charged up when I want to write something and I'm like, give me five versions of this. And any does. So jobs that used to be not so glamorous, are sort of disappearing. So I believe that now we're really seeing the value of human potential which is the humanity and that's what we get to nurture. Absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 08:54

And, you know, you say we have Grammarly. We have spellcheck we have you know, spellcheck is one thing but having tools like Grammarly, that that checks, you know, that checks everything. Like I remember when I was younger, and I was I was at a early in my career at a job and my boss was an English major. And I would type up an email and I would send it to her and she would email me back with the reply. And then below, she would fix all of my grammar errors. I'm like, you've got to be kidding. Okay, well, this is you know what, I took it as a learning you know, opportunity. I was horrible. Horrible at spelling, horribly grammar. I still am still am to this day, but you wouldn't know because now we have. We've got Grammarly. We've got all of these AI tools that basically can make the worst writer in the world look like the best writer in the world.

Maria Kellis 10:00

And in a sense, it's even in the field, I feel that as we are becoming more and more international, as we are opening up our companies and ourselves to international pool of talent, that people are not native English speakers, and that's okay. It's sort of now I am not a native English speaker, and probably not the best writer, I use chargeability daily, I have an email, I type sort of what I want to say, and I'm like, Okay, make it this job. And then it does. And I don't have it, it changed my life, I used to say, there's two technologies that changed my life, cell phones, and GPS, and I'm adding charge up to that, because up to now the tools that we had for so ghost writing, or I'm gonna say, like, just writing tools that they were okay. But they sounded like machine. And now, it's about coming up with ideas. So I wrote an e book, that's actually I can give to the audience, which is the AI and became young, so kind of marrying felt older wisdom with modern tech, and for enhancing leadership. And I purposely wrote that book using chatting for fun, because I'm like, let's see what happens. It took me on less than two weeks to write the book, which is to me tremendous. And I could see how, if I wasn't in charge, if I wasn't telling the AI to go one direction or another, then it will just go somewhere else. And I was like, I don't know that this is what I want to say. Yet, when I was really clear in that direction, really clear on what I needed really clear where I was going, then it became a tense, it became an incredible experience, collaborative experience. It's like I had my own personal writer that was available for any time, I needed a writer period. And, and that was a game changer. And more than more than that, when I, at one point, I had done my own research, and I'm like, oh, based on this research, and this articles, can we talk? Because I was writing about case studies. And I'm like, Well, can we talk about this study? And, and it replied, I'm an AI. I have access to the web. I don't actually need your research.

Leighann Lovely 12:45

Oh, is that funny? Oh, I

Maria Kellis 12:49

was laughing. I'm like, Okay, I guess I don't have to really do research or just like saying, Well, okay, look at different articles and tell me what's happening.

Leighann Lovely 12:56

Right? That I mean, see, and that's, that's amazing and scary at the same time. For it to come back. Because you almost feel like you're talking to a person who's actually getting, you know, snippy or snarky, or we, I don't know what the right word is, you know,

Maria Kellis 13:15

I'm gonna go with with a, but in a sense, that is the magic. Isn't that amazing, though, like to realize that we have built tools that make jobs that used to be sort of a boring, sort of, like, repetitive become a nice thing. Right? It's almost like the sky is the limit. I feel that we are at the time when the humanity of us is in the forefront. And that is what we need more than anything else. Right. And in a sense, I believe that it's not scary, when on the contrary, it's exciting. Because finally, we can look at human potential as real human potential, right? It's about really saying that we don't need to make humans feel that they're not important or that they can only do one level job that we can really elevate and connect at a whole different level. When I was in China for a talk in Shanghai, and in my hotel, I had done I had given my laundry to be done. And I called downstairs in the in the reception and said, Oh, can I have the laundry stand up? And said sure, certainly. A minute later, I got a call or colleague is at the door. Okay, so I opened the door or do I see a little robot it was a machine and looking Like a big trashcan, I guess with a window, it had like a little face bandit. When I said, when I opened the door, it opened that little door, little window and it had my packet and says, you know, your packet has been delivered. And I speak the package, and then the little, like, robust start started going towards the elevator, call the elevator and left with the elevator. And I was like looking at this, and I'm like I am living in the future.

Leighann Lovely 15:31

I think it was, we wouldn't want it, I probably would have followed it and been like, we're just sick go now

Maria Kellis 15:39

be elevated to probably go to his next job. But I definitely took a video of that. But I was so impressed. Someone's asked, because this is a job that somebody will have to have done. Otherwise, like remember the bell boys, right? And wants to give out boy, right? Right.

Leighann Lovely 16:01

Right. And, and we always talk about, well, robots are gonna replace us, but somebody has to calibrate that somebody has to monitor it, somebody has to make actually creating higher paying better jobs for people. So that they have the ability to learn new and better things. Because I mean, the way of the world is just

Leighann Lovely 16:34

it's just simply the way of the world. The more advanced we get, the more you know, the more we here's an example. And I use this example, when I talk all the time. When I first started to read, I'm pretty sure I was, you know, like first grade ish, you know, kindergarten, you start learning to identify your letters, you start to learn to count, and it's about playing and socialization, right. My daughter is five. And she's reading. She's writing. She's using computers in a way that I never, I mean, at will show my age, I didn't have a computer in my home until I was in high school. I mean, we didn't have that technology. But now kids are growing up, where my, when she was two, she could open up my iPhone and take pictures and play games. And I'm like, How did you know how to do that? You know, like, they watch you do something once on technology, and they can repeat it just by seeing. And that just shows the intelligence already in our kids abilities to do things with the use of technology. Now, some would go you know, some would say, Oh, that's so bad. You know, we want our kids to be outside playing the way we did well, the world is constantly evolving. They're not going to go outside and play with sticks the way that we did because, well, they now have so much more to play with. We now we're creating toys that our learning tools, the way that we didn't have we had sticks and Rottweil okay, I'm exaggerating a little bit I had more than stuff to play with. But you get the point. Like,

Maria Kellis 18:27

hey, I played with sticks and rocks because it was fun. I love what I was literally like my favorite game was to go into mud and become like me this poor mom, she had to wash my clothes, but I just like enjoying being in the mud, like the whole space. Right? And I would like make big money and make like little like things with my hands. And I thought it was like the cutest thing in the world. Like, and I thought it was making food right? Because I was watching my mom make foods. I was like, Oh, do you want like some some food that I made? And they were like, oh, laughter that like oh my God, what did she do again. But you know, there's a pleasure in that interaction with the ground, for example, and the earth but there's also fun to to evolve. And I remember toys that we my mom was obsessed with having smart toys for us. She will like track the whole entire. I grew up in Athens, in Greece and sociopaths the entire city to find like the one store that had like educational toys. And as a result, by the way, I went to MIT and my two brothers also went to MIT. So I'm just here to say that educational pillars are very useful. And in a sense, when we those toys are available now to to In case everywhere, when my first job out of MIT, Bernard was working for MIT at the MIT Media Lab as a researcher, and there was a group next to mine, that they were creating music using drawings. So I literally took the notes, and they very literally composed music. So you could draw lines and create operas, and so many a little kid today can open up an application to a few lines and create music without having to learn them instruments, right. So that creates an incredible ability, where we can have new digital learning, and I remember back in the day, like, yo, yo, Ma, was coming to, to the Media Lab to play so they could track his that once the machines learn how to do it, then they could just compose music. Of course, of course, we really smart programmers were behind it. There was an I give them full credit for incredible chars. Yet, what I'm saying is that something that moto was able to play 10 instruments by this time. And so yeah, he became Mozart. But we haven't had composers since then are not incredible composers are well known, because it's not so easy. And who's going to spend that time, right? Whereas today's little kids, if they're musical, and they have the the amazing creativity that they have, they can compose music without having to remember, right?

Leighann Lovely 21:46

Yep. So I'm going to shift us back. So we don't go too far off.

Maria Kellis 21:55

I can talk forever about AI is so fascinating.

Leighann Lovely 21:59

So I've been really excited to talk to you about your teachings and how you use your background and experience to lead businesses. So let's talk a little bit about that. Absolutely.

Maria Kellis 22:11

I believe that I take a very human centric approach. I believe that everything starts with us. And also, I believe in the way, not so much to me. So when we create leaders, so my job is my my focus is on leaders, and leadership. And I work with leaders, but I always say leadership always starts with self leadership. Because if we can lead ourselves, then how will lead an impulse. And it's not about control and manipulation, it's about vision and inspiration. So standing in our power today means very different things than what it meant in the past. We're no longer in the time of the fires when we had slaves, buildings, appointments, machines, were doing that. So now we're at the stage where we can understand leadership at a different level, understanding the nuances. And when I talk about the yin and yang leadership, this is really the pinnacle of my work, I have a method that I use called existe. Maxim's because I always say if you're at your center, just rotate around your center around Praxis as it were. And it it really uses the idea of balance. So the first step is awareness. So we have the awareness of who we are what we're doing and the awareness of the problem. So we go in a very mindful way introspective way really understanding and taking perspective, then the second part is execute for the x axis. And when we are executives or we execute, literally what we do is we take into action and are inspired action is really what drives the results which and then we integrate the two that's the i and b axis by integrating awareness and execution will really create extraordinary success, which is really the essence the axis and this access method may seem simple, but those steps are very vague. And every step is years and years of understanding and training in my life. I personally started with the export, because while I was in technology and also I learned how to do the things using more structure approach the the young approach we wanted call it God. And the rest of my life, especially after the wheelchairs, bashing, understanding life in a much different level was to understand the flow would we call the flow, the amazing ability that we have. This, by the way is incredible and sales as well be in sales, if we understand the flow, we can increase our results. So this is something that I want to say that we as humans have access to something called the flow that is so much better than what we ever had before. And this is really our human potential. So when I work with leaders, even they may be managing a small team. Okay, you may just only be managing yourself that I talk to them about this access method that allows them to have bombers leadership, and create extraordinary results.

Leighann Lovely 26:00

Now, may I ask, because you've brought up the wheelchair? Yes. Now, did you? Was that before? Or after you founded? Inspire Leadership Academy?

Maria Kellis 26:16

That was it. That was 2004?

Leighann Lovely 26:20

Yeah, it was okay. So it was quite a bit before all

Maria Kellis 26:23

it was quite a few years ago, it took me It changed my life. If you speak to people who had very difficult experiences, very often, they will say all best thing that happened my life. And I can tell you the best thing that happened my life, I probably have forgotten the pain and went through that. It was truly something that changed my life changed the course of everything for me, because I had to see the world in a way that I wasn't trained or willing to do before. And I want to say, I am truly grateful that I am now walking not not not to say anything for those people who are still confined in a wheelchair. I mean, I was in a wheelchair for 18 months. So I have a lot of compassion and, and memories of that time. But I do want to say that, to me, it would start with the decision. And it's almost that it was after I had graduated and my base assumption by age two. And I it was the beginning of my career. So I was reading startups, I was reading tech companies. And it was almost like a game, although for me, and I had to be reinvent life based art, everything.

Leighann Lovely 27:48

You know, and a lot of people that I have spoken with a couple on my podcast, have had traumatic events that have changed the trajectory of their life. And having gone through that, they look back on it, and they will say that it was while going through it was, you know, horrible, that it was painful that it was you know, everything that it that it was at face value. But that, you know, when it's all said and done, and they look back on it, that they wouldn't change anything. Because they come out the other side, in a different, you know, like any human would, right? You experience something either traumatic because we have traumatic positive experiences where they are, for all intensive purposes, something that's traumatic, but at the end of it, you go oh my gosh, that was that was quite amazing. While be it traumatic. And you have the traumatic events where it's like, oh, my god, I can't believe I survived it. But you do walk away, altered.

Maria Kellis 29:12

And the pupils, oh, I'm sorry.

Leighann Lovely 29:15

I was just gonna say the people who can walk away and learn something, you know, are are just usually so much more powerful in their own right, because they have the ability to learn something from an event that took place. Because if you if you don't learn anything, then it was all for naught.

Maria Kellis 29:45

I do want to say I'm gonna start by saying that I do work a lot with trauma, and people who carry trauma and I just say that most of us carry some form of trauma. It doesn't have to be as dramatic As I had crazy neuropathic pain, and I was in a little chair, but it can be all, you know, like I was bullied at school or I. So trauma is, unfortunately, a part of every human experience. And I believe that it is God's

Leighann Lovely 30:19

they say changing, you know, changing careers changing a job is a form of trauma. I mean, we have little traumas throughout our life. And then we, you know, unfortunately, some have large traumas.

Maria Kellis 30:34

And I do want to say that I have, because I have been in this field, and because I studied this trauma is an intense event, where we were not able to process the emotion. So there's a difference between drama, and trauma. So an intense event is only becomes traumatic and stays with us and unfortunately, is something that we have to carry until it releases only if we are not able to process our emotions. So I encourage people to always process their emotions in grief, if they have just one of my incredible slides, who's also a rock star, she's amazing. She just had a miscarriage. And we've been taken two months to help her through that pain. And that grades, because most, most women don't talk about miscarriages, let alone go through their grief. And then 20 years later, they find themselves finally addressing the trauma. So I'm like, Well, you know, because of single women 20 years later, how but we let you grieve. And it's been such an incredible growth experience for her. I'm not saying that this is something that she will have chosen. And I'm not saying that this is one. But it was something that could be very traumatic, but because she's passing the grievance taking her time, and we're doing smoothly, she's really able to grow as a human and as a leader in ways that she has never been able to do before. So in a sense, now she's starting to have the gratitude and the appreciation for the event, even though it was extremely difficult to go through. I mean, I don't wish it on anybody, although it is very common. For men, miscarry.

Leighann Lovely 32:34

It is extremely common. But most women don't realize it until they've experienced it themselves. And then have the courage to tell somebody and with me, and it's amazing, because when you acknowledge something that you're experiencing, and people see that you are authentic, and that you are experiencing something, people are more likely. And I've experienced this in my own life, more likely to say, I understand what you're going through. Because it's also happened to me. And then you go what, and you realize, I also experienced a miscarriage. And I was told that I couldn't have a child. And you know, my husband and I were like, oh, okay, we can't have a child. We went, we were considering it, and my audience knows this. We were considering adoption. But when you, you know, in my, my employer knew I was pregnant. And then so when I wasn't it was kind of all of a sudden, like, oh, it's not I can't keep it a secret. They're gonna figure it out. Right? Yes. And it was it was amazing. The amount of women that I was working with at that time, that called me and said, I know what you're going through. And I'm like, well, and you think, right, you kind of do but and they're like, no, no, you don't understand. I know what you're going through. And I went, Oh, and then you have that outpour of people who have gone through it and you go, wow, this is way more common than is ever, ever talked about because it's not a conversation that comes up unless you know somebody who's going through it.

Maria Kellis 34:38

Absolutely. And it's also something that is almost like a stigma when it shouldn't be risks. Okay, but but we were talking about trauma and trauma. So, yes, it is very dramatic and very difficult to go through this experience. And so So for my client, I said, Well, let's not let would be a trauma for you. Right? So when, when they first when they first went to the doctor, and the doctor said, oh, there's a problem, you need to have an abortion. And I was like, okay, is this really what you want? And she said, No. And I said, Okay, how about you love your baby? And then let it have its course, let it be natural. And, and she did. So for three weeks, we were not sure what it was going to happen. And for three weeks, she learned to love her baby, even it. It's funny, because it's her learning experience was about learning how not to be perfect. And I said, Okay, so your baby's not perfect. Can you love it anyway? And she said, Absolutely, I can do. And she had the most loving experience. And this allowed her to go through some serious trauma that she had from her childhood that she never addressed before. And she's becoming a better leader, a stronger leader. And her company, by the ways, was doing amazing. She's like, I don't know, how's it I keep having sales? I'm like, okay, Tori. You in a sense, it's almost like, she didn't even have to work like, she has her own company. So clients will just come to her while she was going through one of the most difficult experiences of her life. And she was. And that realization that is that it's okay to take the time we need to grease to take the time to process our emotions to take the time we need to heal is extremely important. I find that sometimes we forget that we're human, and that we have emotions. And it's almost like a badge of honor. Oh, when I was in school, it was a badge of honor not to sleep to pull an all nighter was cool. To to work overtime to not to work weekends. But why would I need to do that. So it's almost like today, I see those things that was considered amazing. I'm like, well, that's a very efficient way. I realized, and I pushed myself so much sometimes I think that the reason I ended up in their wheelchairs because I had my body just shut down from being abused for so long. And I remember there was one week where I had never realized this. But there was one week it was finals, I had final projects and I managed to stay awake for an entire week. I think I passed out before hours, but the entire week that it was and I saw my intelligence and productivity go down. For the first time I saw what this means to humans, we don't often we stop functioning, right. So now I honor my sleep, I want to sleep I am so excited and I let myself sleep and I wake up with a fresh mind. I used to be able to oil call the night out. I will work like throughout the night. And now I'm like, I wake up at three o'clock is on time or four in the morning and I work that's after a good night's rest. And my mind is fresh. So I find that this is something that we cannot ignore that our physical needs are and it's okay to take care of ourselves. It's okay to give ourselves permission to be human. So when I talk about this access method, a for awareness stands for being human This is our humanity that gets to be stressed.

Leighann Lovely 38:48

That's That's amazing. And I I talk about this a lot for about you know, I'm a first year entrepreneur, you know being the workaholic that you know I shouldn't be because I talk about you know we need we need to have our rest we need to take care of us wellness wise we need to end it and you're right it for so many it's a badge of honor. Still and there has been a huge shift of people going yeah, no five o'clock I'm done. Don't expect me to answer the phone. And that is rule with you know, my family, no phones at the dinner table all of that stuff because you are completely and totally correct. We should not live to work we should work to live. Hands down. The most important thing because if we are only living to work then what is what is the point and I remember hearing a speaker talking about To, you know, finding the purpose. And if your purpose is not with your family or with your health or with whatever that is that's personal. Then what is what is the point?

Maria Kellis 40:17

Is it okay to take one step further, and I believe that we're here to create, I believe that we're here to produce extraordinary effects. What I'm saying is that this balance is not about doing less is about doing more with less time. The one constraint that we have is time. So when I'm exhausted, and I can't function, and I have no idea, like I'm sitting there, and yeah, maybe physically, I'm present, but I'm not present. So if I'm well rested, and my mind is sharp, and can do things really. I remember it was one day, I had this very difficult problem I can solve and I have a commitment to exercise. So I went swimming. Well, guess what, it has such incredible ideas while I was streaming, I came back and I was like, Okay, I solved the problem. And a friend of mine was like, Maria, yes, of course you did. Because what is such a nice element to be in, and I was like, I should do more of my thinking in water. And, and that was because I had the commitment that I'm not going to miss exercise, even though I have something that I didn't finish, because I value my exercise very much. And, in a sense, self care has become something that I do. So when I, I don't always cook, but when I, when I eat, I always eat healthy, I may order in, I may eat a certain bar, but I know that whatever I put in my body is going to determine my statements. And so I no longer think of this, I don't want to take my body for granted. And I no longer take my life for granted. What you're talking about our families, our families, we are social animals, we are our happiness is very much a function of the happiness in our time. And so having a well balanced family with beautiful ways of communicating is, in fact, nurturing us and making us become more productive. One of the problems that companies face, especially in the tech sector is innovation and creativity. And they're like, Oh, well, how do we induce that? The humans do that. Which you do is you nurture the human so they can be creative? Innovation is I always studied geniuses, and how, how do we get those genius models to those moments, they're not ordinary, but they're extraordinary. And those happen, by allowing ourselves to be in this creative state of flow. And that happens when we have less constraints, constraints, when we allow ourselves to be more free. And yes, I always describe the yin and the yang as the, the river of life. So the young being the riverbed, so the container, and the yin and the water. And both of them are required to not have the flavor. If you don't have a bunch of water, it's not going to go into line unless you have a river that maybe at best will become a lake or we'll just get reabsorbed in the in beta. Even when we sold, I think you were talking about purpose, our purpose is to choose the direction where our rivers can flow. And when we do that, we're streamlining or our resources, through systems and processes into that action. And that's what creates our life, our direction, where we're going. Absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 44:11

And we are coming to time, I wish that we had more time to have this. This has been an amazing conversation. But the question of the season, what do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Maria Kellis 44:29

So many things, definitely a chatroom. The taste as I said changed my life so I'm gonna put it up there. And I believe that charge a bit fee members because of what Elon Musk said, but but because it has come to the forefront. It is something that will finally discuss AI. And some people are scared. The Badgers Guild of America is on strike for months because of it. And some people are realizing Wow Like me super happy because suddenly, I don't have to worry so much about the slide about how to write simple things. And so I'm gonna say the first one is going to be the, the rise of AI. In the last three years, I think we can still include COVID, because it was the first time that we had a global response to pandemic. And it was scary. And he was extremely controlling. This whole idea of isolation, forcing people to stay in their houses, was very difficult because our freedom was attacked in a way, yet, what I'm going to say is that someday we saw the advent of working from home, we realized that people at home in fact, are producing better. And we are letting people stay more at home where they can have their home life. So our, our home life balance is become more important. I mean, yes, some people are asking for employees to go back to work to the office, but it's not really happening, people are quitting rather than going back to the office. And this has really changed the way we do business. Because we realize it's not about having somebody in a seat. Being there clocking hours is not the point. The point is, can you do the job, and people in fact, have a better job than they have to deliver results, as opposed to clocking out? And so am I working from home, and we'll get there. The difference in travel, we, I used to travel so much. And with with a I will change a lot of how we with aim sorry, with COVID, we changed a lot how we travel. And we it's almost like we went backwards, but also in a more quality way. So for the first time, in many years, I was reminded that there's borders, that there's countries that I had forgotten that I will just hop on a plane and go to three countries in the day that I was totally fine with. And this I mean, there was one one week where I went through 10 countries. So I remember it was like in Thailand I wanted to make I went to the United States, I went to Belgium's Gliese Cyprus, I don't remember that. But it was just like, one week. And I now see the borders again. And in a sense, it's, it's good and bad. The good thing is that I'm seeing the difference. But I'm also seeing that people are coming together in a way to bridge through cultural gaps that I had never seen before. We're all doing everything online. And yeah, it looks a little bit different in every country. But you know, every country has now gotten through this. And in Thailand, for example, it was always hard to buy things online, online, let alone European things. And then I believe that travel has changed. And we have changed as we are. So we are almost creating homes that we have forgotten. Like, I know so many people whose home had to be the car, because they will sleep in their car, they will eat in their car, they was changing the car. And in a sense, we're reclaiming our homes. And I feel that that's a shift as well.

Leighann Lovely 49:03

If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Maria Kellis 49:08

Absolutely, the easiest way is to go through my website, Mariakellis.com. That's M A R I A. And Kelllis with Double L so K E, double L L I S Maria Keller's dot com. And they can actually pick up the book the ebook goes describing the AI and the Xeon. So this idea that this balance idea that they can find there and they can also reach out to the team and say happy to accommodate I am always excited to talk to people who have listened to me to answer questions of talk to them about how this can help them in their lives so they can absolutely book a time to talk with.

Leighann Lovely 49:52

Excellent thank you so much, Maria for this conversation today. It's been absolutely amazing. Thank you again for Turning to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, work, human, life, maria, ai, changed, talk, trauma, wheelchair, job, amazing, realized, incredible, hr, call, grammarly, toys, pain, mit

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Join me for and amazing conversation with William Vanderbloemen We discuss the importance of being able to articulate yourself during an interview. It's not about just saying what you think the interviewer wants to hear; it's about being genuine and demonstrating how your unique experiences and qualities align with the position and company culture. Having a level of self-awareness can set you apart from other candidates and help you make a meaningful connection with the interviewer.

Contact – William

Website - https://www.vanderbloemen.com/

Amazon – Be The Unicorn – By Wiliam Vanderbloemen

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:07

Let's get this conversation started. I'm very excited to speak with William Vanderbloemen, CEO and founder of Vanderbloemen search group, a top executive search firm. In his upcoming book be the unicorn 12 data driven habits that separate the best leaders from the rest. William reveals how job seekers, employees, hiring managers and company leaders everywhere can stand out from their peers and become irreplaceable. Building the careers they've always wanted. William, thank you for joining me. I am very excited to have you here today.

William Vanderbloemen 01:48

Leighann it's, it's it's a fun thing to get to be with you. I appreciate you taking time and go packers. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 01:56

Go Packers. So William, why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

William Vanderbloemen 02:02

Oh, this sounds like a job interview, Leighann

Leighann Lovely 02:06

I know, I know people are I actually had one of my guests say you can't ask me that question. And I'm like, well, then how do I start? Like, do I introduce you, do you? And I'm like, Fine. I won't. We'll we'll just jump into the first question. But I'm sorry, you gotta answer. Let

William Vanderbloemen 02:22

Let me give you let me give you the Podcast Answer. And then if you want, I can give you the oh, if I get asked that in a job interview. Here's how i How's that? Yep. Okay. So I have the privilege of serving a company that I started. We're an executive search firm, we help teams that are values driven, find their top talent. So it started as an idea of helping churches find their pastor, I think you're in Milwaukee. So like, Elmbrook Church, which would be a church that is fairly well known in town, that'd be but then also grew to schools. What's the charter school, they're in Milwaukee. That's so good. St. Augustine Academy, okay, we so we help them. And that's, you know, not necessarily faith based, but it's values driven nonprofits that are trying to find their C suite. And then to some extent, I don't know how to say this. But like, the Chick fil A is of the world, the companies that are small businesses, large businesses that are family run, and they have a very particular set of values that drive that family. And they want a search firm that's going to hire based on value and cultural fit as much as competency. Does that make sense?

Leighann Lovely 03:34

Yes and finding cultural fit, you know, saying it like, and again, I work in this space, saying, hey, I really like to find somebody who's a cultural fit. It's one thing to say it, it's another thing to do it correct. Because to try to explain, Well, what is your culture, you can't just sit and have a conversation and be like, Oh, here's what my culture is. You have to actually dig in and get to know the people to figure it out

William Vanderbloemen 04:02

And it's an archeological dig, not a correct backhoe, done in 30 minutes kind of thing. It's slow study of the organization. I tell people when we do a search, it's kind of like an organ transplant, you're hiring us to go find someone outside your body and bring them in and run a major system of the body. Right? And so we live right by that Medical Center here in Houston. We have a ton of Doc's in our neighborhood, and I was talking to transplant dog and I said, What's the difference between the good transplant doc and the best? And he said, that's easy. The, you know, donor lists are a big part of the equation, who can we go find that has a kidney or he said, you know, but honestly, that's not as hard as it used to be. What separates the best transplant dogs from the rest is their ability to do a tissue match? Oh, and I thought about what I do. And he said, Well, I said and he said, Well, you can take a hell If the heart and put it in a healthy body, and if the tissues don't match, it's a bad ending for everyone. And I just thought about HR and staff and like, adding to the team. So we really focus on the tissue match, which requires a deep study of each as if it's the only client we've ever had. So that's,

Leighann Lovely 05:18

that's a really great analogy, because I mean, you're right. And if that tissue doesn't match, eventually everything around the heart is going to Yeah, it's gonna die. It's and you

William Vanderbloemen 05:29

know, the whole search world, people don't want to have to pay to help find stuff. I think they feel like there. Am I the admitting some level of incompetence, by hiring someone to help me find this person? And it's just like, you know, man, it's all right. And then if they say, well, I'll get some help that it's like, I don't want to spend a ton of it. And I've kind of gotten to the place Leann where I look at people and say, if you needed a kidney transplant, would you Google discount transplant doctors? Right.

Leighann Lovely 06:01

But here's, here's something that I grew up in a in a sales, or, you know, sales, entrepreneur, spirited type family, and I grew up with the understanding that if you are not the expert at what you're doing, then go hire the expert at what you're doing, because it makes you that much smarter. I'm not, I'm not the smartest person in the room. But here's where I stand out, among other people, I am smart enough to know it. I don't know how to do accounting, I run my own business. Okay? Do I want to do my own books and screw up and in the end, have to pay the government that much more money? Or do I want to admit that I am not smart enough to do it, and then go hire the person that is smart enough so that at the end of the day, I don't end up having to pay 50? Grand to the government because I screwed up my books.

William Vanderbloemen 06:52

That's this is so we have more in common than I realized, tell me about yourself actually starts with I will, I'll keep it short. I am a recovering preacher. So I go on and on and on. But a lifetime ago, I was a pastor, it senior pastor, lead pastor, the head guy, whatever you want to call it at all, mostly large churches. The last church I served was First Presbyterian, Houston, which is where Sam Houston went to church. So like it's fairly established and ensconced, great place, they shouldn't have a hard time hiring. They took three years to find me, I stayed six years, it took almost three years to find the next guy. And I went from there to we don't have time for all the details. But I went from there into the corporate world, worked for a fortune 200 size company oil and gas here in Houston, the CEO had been there nine and a half years, which is a lifetime for a company that size, and said time to find my successor and they hired this thing called a search firm. Never heard of such thing. I just, you know, Wake Forest, undergrad, Princeton seminary, straight into church. And 90 days after they started, they had a new CEO. And I'm like, wow, you know, first person in Houston, they get 12 years, half the time they're in for somebody half the time. They're not mean oil and gas company like the Deathstar of the universe right now. And 90 days, they've got their person. So I set out to try. It's funny, I came home, Adrienne, and I just gotten married, we blended our families, six kids just bought a house and I said, Baby, I think I think I'm supposed to quit my job and start something new for churches. And she just looked at me totally deadpan and said, That's because churches love new ideas, right? Said no one ever. You know, she, she should have said I love you go back to work. We have mouths to feed and she didn't. So honestly, she gets credit for starting the company. Oh, and LeighAnn it was the fall of 2008, which was a brilliant time to quit your job. So oh my gosh, but it's been a fun ride. 15 years later, we've kind of it's branched out from just helping churches to although we do the church and the pastor thing a lot more than anybody in the world because we weren't the first do it. But it's branched out beyond that. We've gotten to meet a lot of great small business owners gotten to help a lot of companies, right.

Leighann Lovely 09:18

It's the idea that you started and in churches, which and I in my career have helped. I've gone into churches and helped implement processes and they're slow to move on anything. I mean, it is it is

William Vanderbloemen 09:35

there are glaciers that move faster. So

Leighann Lovely 09:39

the idea that you started there, my my goodness gracious it That is That is crazy.

William Vanderbloemen 09:48

I didn't bring that up to tell funny stories much to say. If you look back on my wall you'll see an undergraduate degree with religion and philosophy Exactly business. You know, you know what people with a philosophy major do with their career? They spend the day saying, Would you like fries with that? Like, that's my business training and then a seminary degree from Princeton like, so I've had to learn it as I go and hire accountants, so we don't pay extra money and just hiring experts around me. So sorry for the long story. No,

Leighann Lovely 10:22

but I love it. I absolutely love it. Because I don't I don't know that there is anybody who is wildly successful that had a straight path. No. And people, you know, there's so many people who will look at you and go, Well, I can't, you know, he's, he's so brilliant and so successful. I don't want to approach him and, and, you know, sound stupid? Well, wait a second, let's back up. That is the person that you should approach and and talk to, because if you're open and willing to accept some of that knowledge, well, and obviously the person you approach has to be willing to, you know, to be open. But for the most part, the people I talked to are so open to saying, yeah, let me tell you my story. Let me tell, you know, tell you a little bit about what I went through. And then it may it humanizes. First of all, let's talk HR humanizing. It humanizes those people. And it allows other people to realize, wow, I can do brilliant things. If only I start asking the questions, and I allow myself to be open to new ideas. I mean, I never, I never would have, I never would have started with trying to help churches. Because no one. But that's the

William Vanderbloemen 11:39

very hardest group to a tough to do it. You

Leighann Lovely 11:43

knew them, you understood them and you understood their their inner workings because well

William Vanderbloemen 11:48

in for me, for me, just to be clearly and and not to sound, you know, melodrama. This was not about what's the best business sector to start in. This was about a cause that I deeply care about being so sadly inefficient at their HR, that I'm like, I don't care if it's me chasing windmills with Don Quixote. I'll try. Right? Well, and that really ended up at a business decision,

Leighann Lovely 12:11

it was your passion, it was a passion project that has now turned into a successful business where you can still keep your passion, you know, close to your heart. That's right. And if we could all if we could all do something that we're passionate about and enjoy doing, and being able to still help that, you know, we would, we would find our success, right? Because

William Vanderbloemen 12:32

we have seven kids. And so we're the career we're in the career advice stage, we get some out of college, something and they all come to me and say, you know, what do you think we should do with our career? This is what you do all day, what you know, give me some advice. And I think they all think I want to, I'm gonna say well come work at the company, the family business, and I haven't said that yet. But what I have said is, listen, it doesn't matter, Lincoln Do two sets of questions to ask, as you're looking for your career. The first set is, you know, what kind of job? Do I want, you find something the world needs, okay. And that's a little trickier right now, because AI is going to change what the world needs from humans. So think about that. Is this something the world needs? And is going to need for a while? Is this something I'm good at? Is this something that I can actually feed my family with? Like, there are a lot of people who take on passion projects, and then realize they're bankrupt? Right? And is this something that makes my heart go? Yes. And then finally, is it something that leaves the world better than you found it, you do those five things, you'll have more job satisfaction than probably 90% of the population, right. And the second thing is, once you find the job, if you do what you say you're going to do, when you say you're going to do it, at the costs that you promised, you'll be in the top 5% of whatever you go into. Find

Leighann Lovely 13:53

something that you are extremely passionate about and love to do that are helping others and you'll never work a day in your life. And SAS is not measured by the amount of money that you make, but rather the I mean, not to say that you can't work for free, you still need to be able to put food on the table, but it's measured by you know, what you choose, you want to have out of that at the end of the day, and it's different for everybody and that's absolutely beautiful. So, so now you you, you have been able to gather invaluable insight, you know, over the years through the research, the interview process that that you go through in you know, in helping people find these jobs, helping these companies find these people so you've you know, really have kind of, you know, a process down and I asked you, you tell me about yourself and you laughed Is this an interview tell me you know, how you help your clients, the candidates navigate the hole, finding jobs finding people and what is the magic sauce what is the because every But he dreads that. Yeah. Candidates sit down and tell me about yourself. Right? Yeah,

William Vanderbloemen 15:04

I so I think whether you're hiring or interviewing, the cardinal rule is long hellos, short goodbyes, you can say a little more bluntly, hire slowly fire quickly, right. But long hollows and short goodbyes take your time, make sure it's right. If you're miserable in your job, it's not going to help you, it's not going to help the company and then you're going to be job hopping on your resume. And that is not insurmountable, but it's, it's not desirable. Right. So, to me, you know, hiring and interviewing, both sides of that equation are oftentimes like, like bad High School dating from back. I mean, I'm, I'm 53. So I'm ancient, but like, back when we were in school, when we walked up hill to school in the snow both ways. You know, dating was, um, you never saw the real person, right? Like, you know, if it was me, waxing my car to some ridiculous shine, it never has, I'm lifting weights 10 minutes before I pick her up. So I look a little bigger than I am. And, you know, she spent the day getting ready at a level that would never happen, probably wearing something she doesn't want to wear. And, you know, it's just that's the way interviewing feels like to me, and maybe that's not the way everybody understands it. But there's a there's a story not to get all biblical, but there's a great story in the Hebrew Scriptures. Jacob is getting married, and and he wants to marry Rachel, the love of his life. And he's worked seven years to get the Father's blessing. And the father is a bit of a trickster. And so it goes down the aisle and does the ceremony. But But in that day, the wedding was really when the consummation happened. And the father swapped out Rachel for Leah, the younger sister, and it just says, and so they got married, and then Jacob woke up, and it was Leah. And so like, that's what interviewing feels like. It's like, I thought I walked down the aisle with one person, then in the morning, right? So how do you make it work? What's the genius if you can find a way to get honest answers from candidates about themselves and honest answers from employers about themselves? And that's kind of honestly, it's a lot of what we do is sort of provide this Switzerland, where each side can ask the awkward question, and we can say, here's the what's what and find that tissue match so that everybody walks away going, this works well. And off we go.

Leighann Lovely 17:43

And do you feel that? It's, I mean, you're you're almost the mediator, right? That's right. So do you you think that because you have that you're the the mediator or the buffer in between? Because, you know, again, I could put two people in a room and be like, okay, guys be be honest with each other. Let's know. Exactly.

William Vanderbloemen 18:04

And they're nervous. That's the main thing is not they're deceptive. It's nervous. When you're hiring, you're adding an unknown into your staff culture, right? You're so and like, and people, like, I don't know how many primal fears we have. But we're afraid of the unknown, right? Like, I still got a teenager that prefers a nightlight, you know, so we don't like the unknown. And that's why I see so many people. Well, I'm gonna hire this guy, because Leanne told me, he was great. Well, that's pretty thorough. What happened? I mean, I lovely and but like, what happened was, I'm afraid the unknown now I feel like I know something because me and told me about a note. So I'm gonna go with the known or I'm gonna go with the internal heart. Or if you're a small business owner, well, let's say, let's say this way, if you have a friend who owns a small business, have you ever seen a friend with their small businesses, hand the keys to one of their kids that's not qualified. Hmm. And sometimes it's out of pride or a blind spot, but sometimes it's because I know my kid. I don't know what's unknown.

Leighann Lovely 19:07

Right? Right. No, absolutely. You see that all the time, where you've got a family member of some kind in the business that shouldn't be in the business. But the alternative is what I'm going to turn over my business to somebody who I don't know it all. But the person who is running the business is making mistakes, and because they're just not qualified. You're right. We are all afraid of the unknown. It's that you know, walking in the dark, walking in the dark when it's, you know, really dark and in my neighborhood, I don't have a whole ton of streetlights and you always get the pricks in the back of your neck when you can hear something above you or in front of you. And you're like, what is that? Like? Is there something up? Is there something in front of me? You know, I'm a 42 year old woman that really is not scared of anything, but you still have that, that you know, the goose ball seems that you're like, Ooh, yes, I don't know. And especially when it's your own business, or it's something that you're extremely passionate about. So how do you help? I mean, are you are you putting two people in a room? How do you help with that interview? Oh, yeah.

William Vanderbloemen 20:17

So So I think we and the image that I'm currently most drawn to, for us, I love the transplant surgeon thing. But but the reality is, we're not the only ones guiding the hiring process. And we're certainly not telling you who to hire. It's more like, you know, when we when we have a new client, will this never used this will take a survey, what are you expecting out of this? Right? And then after the search, we do another survey, say, what was the highest value? It's interesting. What are you expecting? This always leads to? The lead answer is always you're going to introduce me to people that wouldn't otherwise know. Well, that's very, that's flattering, because everyone knows everyone. It's called LinkedIn. But, you know, on the backside, well, what was the biggest value you got out of this? And the answer is almost always it was the process. You guided us through things, you mediated things. So I'm seeing us now as more of a Sherpa. You know, like, this is your mountain to climb. You're the one that's going to summit Everest. I'm the little guy that's gone up and down the hill a bunch of times, and I can help you see where to step and not step. So it's not just putting two people in a room. It's it's sourcing down to a shortlist, and then from the shortlist, helping them figure out which one on the shortlist is. Right, right.

Leighann Lovely 21:34

So let's talk about how you assist the candidates with you know, some of the questions. How do you how you know, they, I'm a candidate. So, William, I'm coming to you asking your advice, William, you know, I can't stand when somebody, you know, asks me to tell me what my greatest weakness is? You don't like that question. I actually, I love every interview question because I'm a geek. And I just I'm, I'm also excute streamwerks, the right answer

William Vanderbloemen 22:05

to that question again, what's the right answer to what's my great I mean, it's not, I never asked for a raise, I work too many hours, these are my weaknesses.

Leighann Lovely 22:12

For me, my greatest weakness is also my greatest strength. I have had employers, I also, however, improbably not employable at this point, because I've owned my own business. And I've gotten a taste of that. And I probably would be the worst employee ever to sue. And I have known this actually, way before I own my own business, I knew that I was a very hard person to manage. And I have told my managers like, I'm not the easiest person to manage, because I get wild ideas in my head. And I think that I know, like, how to do my, you know, my job, and I'm going to come to you at times, and you're going to have to look me square in the face and say, no, and no means no. But my greatest strength is also my greatest weakness. Might, I think?

William Vanderbloemen 23:03

Yep. It Yeah, it's true of everybody. Your greatest strength unguarded is your shadow side? And that's a great way to answer that question. You know, we've done so when we do a search, we'll have you hire me to find your CEO of your whatever the thing is, and we'll have maybe 1000 people that are on radar, and then you get serious about it, like, where is it located? I mean, you rule out all the Bears fans, if I'm hiring for you, like they can't come work for you. No padding? No, it's all. So you whittle it down. And maybe you got 150 people you're really dealing with and you do your initial phone screens and all that. And you whittle down to a zoom interview and a second zoom interview, you get down to the very last the the face to face interview with people that are getting to maybe make the shortlist. That's a long format interview. And we've now done 30,000 of those and tracked all the data, like, where do they end up how they do what they say to these questions. And it's not a totally scripted interview, but it's a fairly similar format, so we can see some patterns. And in the telling me about yourself sort of thing. If you're interviewing right now, or what's your greatest weakness? Like, do you mind if I just give you like a quick here's what the best of the best have done? Yeah, please. Yeah. So so the very, in fact, we did a study in 2020. If you remember, we had a pandemic sin. Oh,

Leighann Lovely 24:30

yeah, that weird, that weird thing that happened during that time in the world shutdown?

William Vanderbloemen 24:34

Yeah, where every one of my clients closed indefinitely. churches, schools, I mean, business lesson, if all of your clients is closed indefinitely, it will affect your p&l.

Leighann Lovely 24:47

So it really does.

William Vanderbloemen 24:50

Things they teach you with a religion and philosophy degree. So we did a study. We had extra time in it. That's a whole nother podcast, but we asked the question, so we got 30,000 somebody's face to face. Could we identify who the best of those 30,000 are? Based on job placement, retention, success at work? And we did. And then we said, well, do they have anything in common? And they do. And we would never have time to do all this research without the pandemic, because we're growing and you know, going too fast. And so it's led to some really interesting insights about what really are the best habits of the best of the best candidates? And what are the best answers and one of those habits that I think works with the tell me about yourself, and what's your greatest weakness? We distilled it to 12 habits of the best of the best. And one of them is self awareness. We said What does that mean? Well, so Leanne's got this rockin and rollin company that's growing super fast. And I'm interviewing with her. And Leanne says, Tell me about yourself. So well, I won't bore you with all the details, my wife would get seven kids. But what what I want you to hear is I'm really interested in this interview. And I don't know where it'll go. But I'm really energized. Let me tell you why. What you need matches a whole lot of who I am. Now, what does that mean? Well, you're growing like a hockey stick. You know, it's, I can see that. So I'm guessing that every single job description in your company Leann has a little thing at the bottom that says, and other duties as necessary. Right. And it's probably got another bullet point, this is ability to learn on the job. Well, let me tell you, my last company, I started with a startup, they had no idea what to do with their mail list. They didn't even have an email distribution list thing. I got a philosophy degree. So I had to go figure that out. I got on constant contact until we could figure it out. Like HubSpot, it's the best thing to do for content based marketing, we started a blog, we upped our traffic, we grew our, our website, we grew our contact list by 3,000% in the first two years, and in the middle of all that, I also had to learn how to do a commercial real estate lease, which I've never done. But it was just a lot of fun. I really thrived in that. I had a job in high school, where it was house painting, and it was the same motion on the same job all day long. And the guy next to me, loved it. He was wired for it. I did not love it, I was ready to quit. I am not that guy. If you want me to come in and do like being counting, if you're gonna fire me, I'm not good. If if you want me to come in and say we were you know what we're jumping out of the plane. And we're going to build a parachute on the way down. I'm in my zone. And that's why I'm excited about this interview. And I'm excited to see where it goes. So you see what happens is their self awareness, right. And I backed it up with, look how that self awareness is proved out by what I've done in my previous jobs. And that self awareness is also tied to that's why I'm interested in your job. Now this won't work. If you don't do the homework and only intermarry jobs, or shin. But then you've also kind of headed off with the past. Tell me about your greatest weakness, because you've already said, you know, there are fabulous people in the world that are compliance officers, I would get fired from that in about three days, you know, so, does it make sense? Probably more than you wanted to hear?

Leighann Lovely 28:15

No, no, it absolutely makes sense. And when people are self aware, you're right. Absolutely. Right. Because and I'm trying to think of the proper way. When when people are self aware, they're able to adjust and, you know, be able to take on those difficult and again, I'm not picking on the the person who loves the painting job that's repetitive. That's that's the same thing. But the more self aware you are, the more you're able to shift and move and adjust to different situations, which makes sense why those would be the highest ranked with interview candidates. And when we talk about that, in emotional intelligence, we talk about that in self awareness. It will emotional intelligence very much is together with self awareness. So it makes sense why those would be the traits when

William Vanderbloemen 29:06

I was younger. You know, I came to First Presbyterian, Houston, I was head of this church with about 5000 adults couple 1000 kids at school. I've never been a member of a large church. I don't know what they were thinking they should have hired a search firm to help them but there wasn't one back then. So I go their way in over my head, but because I was 31 I knew everything. So you know, classic mistake, I did not have self awareness. And I just hired people exactly like me because I like me. You know, I think as I've grown in self awareness, it's given me the capacity to appreciate people that are not like me, that can complement the team in a way that we would never have been able to do research on 30,000 interviews if it was just people like me, because we would have thrown the interview notes away or they'd have been on the back of a paper bag or no, I've got all All these people on our team that are completely OCD with our data. I mean, like, honestly, they probably get mad when I say that because they're like, No, we're C, D, oh, that's alphabetical. So

Leighann Lovely 30:17

Right. And, again, you're talking about, you know, hiring people who are great at doing something that you are not are not not good at, right. And, and require self awareness. And that requires self awareness. And, you know, I tell, I'll tell people, like, stay in your lane, do find your superpower. And then stay in your lane. If you need to veer for a second, you know, occasionally I need to update my my accounting books so that my accountant can take care of it. But everybody has a superpower. And it may, it may not be self awareness, it may be painting the walls. If that's your superpower, you're happy with that, then go do that, then go be happy in with your superpower. And that absolutely. I you know, and I've talked to them numerous times about every single human and every single job needs to be recognized for the great job that they do in the job that they do.

William Vanderbloemen 31:16

So good. It was so good. It doesn't matter what we

Leighann Lovely 31:21

But take pride in what you do. Love what you do, and you'll be happy every day of your life.

William Vanderbloemen 31:29

That's good. But I

Leighann Lovely 31:31

preach about this too. If you're not happy in what you do, then go I mean, the world since the pandemic, it has drastically changed. There are hundreds of 1000s of jobs open all over the place. Even when we're hearing about mass layoffs. There are still hundreds of 1000s of jobs all over the place. That's exactly right. So yeah, now, I wanted to bring this one up, bringing up salary. Now, for me, I've never had a problem with again, I am a wildly extroverted person. I don't I don't know, William, I don't think I brought this up to you. I have bipolar disorder, years and years of being stable. That is part of my superpower. I don't think of it. I don't consider it to be a disability or a hinderance anymore, because I've been stable for as long as I have. It's part of my superpower, it makes me as much of an extrovert I've I have owned that I have. I talk about it a lot. It is part of who I am proud of who I am, I go out and I talk to people about you know that I'm a huge supporter of mental health. So I've never had a problem with being a chatty Cathy, right? It's just part of my, my personality. So when it comes to, you know, going into an interview, I've never had a problem with just being myself being completely comfortable with myself. But there are those who, and I experienced this to where I'll talk to the the company that interviewed a candidate, and they'll say, This person was just really closed off. I'm like, really? What, what do you I didn't get that. But you and I are very comfortable talking with people. And I have a tendency to be able to break down those walls with people very quickly. When they go into a structured interview, those individuals all of the sudden get real Oh, God, I don't know what to say. I don't know how to say it. So there's those questions like, when do I bring up salary? How do I bring up and discuss what my salary expectations are? At what point? Do you recommend that those discussions come up?

William Vanderbloemen 33:45

Well, with with, with all 12 of the habits we found in what we call the unicorns, you know, the in all 12 of them, developing skills around them has not ever been easier, because the Internet helps so much. So with salary, the help it is you should have an idea what the ballpark of the salary is, before you ever walk in there. And if you don't, I don't know what kind of job you're interviewing for. But, man, you gotta have a little bit of anticipation of the interview. You know, whether you go on Google reviews, you go on Glassdoor, I think 18 states now require that some salary range be posted. Now, if they're posting accurately, that's different, but there are ways to get an idea of both what the company is paying and what the market demands. Right? So you shouldn't walk in there ignorant. It's a lot different than 3040 50 years ago, frankly, where companies could take advantage of women and say this is what salary is when if it were man, it'd be totally different. You know, thankfully, those things have changed some, but I'm kind of an old curmudgeon here, really, and I think I see More people make the mistake of bringing up salary too soon than waiting too long, especially given that you should have some information going in. Now, if you've got, I mean, I've got seven kids, I that's a lot of people to feed. So I got, I'm the first to say you need to know what you're getting into. And don't come home with a job that won't feed anybody. But you should be able to figure most of it out. And one other place, I'll just go ahead and be curmudgeon, and I would say the earlier you are in your career, the longer you can wait to bring up salary, okay. And the earlier you wait, and you're the earlier you are on your career, the less you should counter the offer. If you're early in your career, and you find a job you're excited about, and they offer you a salary, and it's within what the market bears or what you know, you figure to be. I have seen a trend in in my own kids and in millennials, we as the backbone of our offices, millennials love them to death. I'm very bullish on the generation in general. But I will say you guys need to quit countering for no reason other than countering if it comes off as arrogant and entitled, it comes off as you're so lucky to interview me. And I don't even want to talk to you. We we have walked away from people that do the whole counter game just because that's like, to me call me old school curmudgeon, but on a job right out of college, that is just not the right posture to have. So that's now you can cancel me and not ever invited me back to the podcast that was

Leighann Lovely 36:28

so well sad. Because I, again, I'm always for people. I'm countering for their worth. If I have a company who comes in and offers them something that I don't feel they're, they're worth it, you know, is low balling them just for the sake of trying to get them at a really low rate. And I'm like, I am 100% in their corner of yes, let's let's go back and ask for that additional 5k. Or let's see if they'll do a sign on bonus, or whatever it might be. But, but for the millennials who are for the younger generation, when they come in, and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm making this much. And just recently, all of the sudden, they're like, Well, I want 10,000 more than what I'm making. I'll go. What's why? Why, like, seriously, why? What, what, what makes you think that

William Vanderbloemen 37:23

because it's in vogue? You're not? You're not telling your truth? If you don't, right, which, like, Guys, come on, don't blow the job, right or something doesn't matter, right.

Leighann Lovely 37:39

And it insults on, there's that. And I've had it both ways where I've had an employer insult a candidate, and I've had candidates insult employers, by going and you as much as you tried to do the mediation of I can't go back to the employer and ask them for that. Or I can't go to the employee and offer them that they're going to be insulted by you. And they're like, well just do it. Okay, well, as the mediator. I cannot, as the representative to both parties, I have to do what's being asked. And it's embarrassing sometimes that I've had embarrassing moments where I'm like, Oh, I got to offer this to you. I've also had it i Sorry, I've also had it where I've had a candidate accepted job. And then and negotiation negotiation, the company finally went, Yes, we'll offer that accept it. And the day later come back and go, Oh, I'm sorry. But I think that, you know, I going to ask for this much more. And I went, I'm sorry, but negotiations are closed. And I literally said, I am withdrawing you from this opportunity at this point. Because negotiations closed, you accepted the position. And unfortunately, I can't represent you anymore. Like we've gone through two days of negotiation. And I as your representative in I'm withdrawing you from, you know, from this position, like, because I knew that the company would be like, Absolutely not. It would have been embarrassing as a representative of the client to even go back or have the candidate to even go back to the client and say, yeah, she wants more now, now that she's accepted the position like so there's, there's don't get me started on on that. I'm 100%.

William Vanderbloemen 39:22

You know, what's interesting in these 12 habits, of the unicorns are one of them is anticipation. And so like, a perfect example of that is arming yourself with some information before you ever get to the salary negotiations. The best of the best are thinking a step or two ahead, and they develop that as a habit. It's not a hard habit to develop. It's just intentionally try those, you know, all 12 of those habits were super common among unicorns, and not common at all among everybody else and they're not on it. trainable, it was not, oh, they're all six foot five, or they don't have 175 IQ, or they all have fabulous hair and teeth. It wasn't anything. So it was, you know, simple interpersonal habits, that they showed that very few people do anticipations one, self awareness is one, it's it is a fascinating study.

Leighann Lovely 40:23

That's I would love to see the full study and like, really understand, because, again, you know, in HR, in sales in everything that I do, it's the study of humans and why they make the decisions they make, why they make the buying decisions, why they make the HR decisions, why they what, what is it in them, and I know, a lot of it is a great deal of it has to do with self awareness. And but the decision making process and how people's brains work and making a simple decision of why am I buying what I'm buying? Why am I not? What what is it that's triggering each decision that somebody made on a daily basis?

William Vanderbloemen 41:04

Fascinating, it is fascinating. And, you know, we got the whole research project, other than a pandemic, we were sitting around stuff, you know, time to spend, was kicked off by like, I've always wondered, like, you ever meet somebody, and within five minutes, you're like, winter?

Leighann Lovely 41:21

Oh, yeah. And meet somebody in it. You know, within five minutes. I'm like, trying to figure out how do I get out of this? Yeah.

William Vanderbloemen 41:31

It's not even like do I like him is just like, they're magnetic. Five minutes into the interview, I've learned not to say I should hire him because they might not be right for us. Tissue match? Right? But they are super hireable. And I've always wondered what makes them like that, why? I'm not dumb. Why within five minutes my in their camp. And that sort of kicked off the study, like, alright, of the best interviews we have, most of the time, when you sit down within five minutes, you're like, I'm interviewing a fantastic person right now. Whether or not they fit, and it just made us say Do they what they have in common. And it was stunning, how it's just simple interpersonal habits. We did the research for our own purposes, and then kept getting told you've got to crank this out for the public. And frankly, for people who want to get ahead. So we did write a book about it. And it does have the all the results. It's all awesome. What is your book? It's called be the unicorn. All right, perfect. And you can get that unicorn. Let's see if I can do the whole thing. Be the unicorn 12 data driven habits that separate the best leaders from the rest.

Leighann Lovely 42:38

And you can get that I'm assuming on Amazon, and you get it anyway. It's,

William Vanderbloemen 42:43

I don't know when you're airing this. You know, sometimes airing and recording are different. But the official on sale dates November 14, and pre sales are open right now. Awesome. Yeah, I think it'll be helpful to people, we're gonna put a workbook out afterwards, we've got some bonus content for people that pre order. But basically just want to try and help people get better. I really think as AI emerges, and it will replace a lot of our jobs, it's also going to create some jobs that we didn't know were there. That's what always happens. We've seen engines and computers and internet's it takes some jobs away to create some new ones. But I do think the of the gold standard in the job market over the next 10 years, is humans being able to interact with humans on a human level at an at an excellence that they haven't before. And all 12 of these habits are basic human interpersonal skills that anyone can do is just like, lots of people buy a treadmill and never use it. No, you got to apply. But but we have the data shows these are the things to work on, and then you'll just be irreplaceable. I think it's gonna help. I have a treadmill.

Leighann Lovely 43:53

It was a great idea when I decided to get a treadmill and now it's just a, you know, big piece of equipment that sits in my flippin spare bedroom. Okay, I will definitely be getting your book. I'm excited to read that. But we are coming to time I want to get the question of the season, answered by you and then get your contact information. So what do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three plus years?

William Vanderbloemen 44:24

Yeah. So I think that, you know, how cool would have been to live during the Renaissance?

Leighann Lovely 44:35

I'd love to, there wasn't enough

William Vanderbloemen 44:37

communication to know, hey, over in Portugal, they just did this. And over in Italy, Leonardo did that. And, you know, but there was so much going on at the same time. And that's pretty amazing. Or at the dawn of the Roman Empire, right? There's so much changing and happening. So like there, there are only a few times when that's happening. As you know, Alexander takes over the world. And instead of having 85 different Greek languages, he didn't one and things are unified. And there's all kinds of shifts or changes. Those are really like seismic shifts that as I look at world history, you know, they're really only ever three, four or 500 years. I think we're living right in the middle of one of those. And I don't just say that willy nilly, or to be melodrama, what I've studied it, I almost did a PhD in the history of doctrine, which is like, do you want curly fries with that, but studying the patterns, here's the here's the pattern. I see. Here's the key. There's enormous innovation breakthrough. But always before enormous innovation, breakthrough and disruption. There's a communication breakthrough. Every time Rome built roads, things changed. Alexander got one Greek things changed. There's a printing press, things change. There's, you know, you can see it, we've had the internet for a while. People think breakthroughs, communication breakthroughs happen in one day, or one year, they don't, they have to be adapted and adopted. One of the silver linings of the pandemic is people are now totally cool with technology. Like my mother's Church, which is slightly older than George Washington, is live streaming their services, they would never have done that before. So I think what's the world going to remember, this was a season of enormous, you could say disruption and chaos, or you could say, opportunity and new birth. And I think it's going to be both ghostly. But I think we're living in a renaissance. And I think history will prove this is one of the cooler times to be alive.

Leighann Lovely 46:44

I agree. And I don't think I mean, it's, it's, and I was just talking about this, I think that we are at the threshold of a of the beginning of the reset, where we're going to see with all of the inflation of of jobs going up and pricing going up, I think we're going to finally see a balance. And it's going to take another two or three years where we start to see things balance back out, where pricing is going to start to balance and level off. And we're not going to continue to see all of these rises, because I think we're already seeing companies start to go, Okay, we can't sustain these high inflated salaries in numbers. And we're already starting to see it here where companies are starting to come down and go, yep, our wages are no longer starting at this, we're, we're leveling that out. And if we can get those numbers back down, we'll start to see other things start to to level out as well. I just I agree, there's so many amazing things that have happened. I mean, obviously not the pandemic, but amazing things that happen because of what we all experience together. There's some beautiful things that came out of that. And now we're, we're struggling to, you know, get a hold of all the weird things that got off balance. But I've been saying it for now, over a year that there has to be a reset, to bring things back to a stable balance. And I think that we're at the threshold of that beginning. And I just Yeah, I agree. That was a great answer. Now, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

William Vanderbloemen 48:24

Simple. Go to Google, spell Vanderbloemen any way you want, it will drive right back to our site. And our site also can drive you to be a unicorn. It also can drag you if you'll see when you get there. We've actually built an index around these 12 habits. And we've surveyed a quarter million people. So we have a nice baseline you can see how do I measure up against the general population? And how do I measure up against the unicorns? And what do I need to work on. So go to spell Vanderbloemen However you want in Google, you can also go to Amazon and spell Vanderbloemen however you want, it'll the name is so messed up. It'll lead right back to this

Leighann Lovely 49:05

and your name your it'll be on the show notes, you'll be able to find it. I'll have you know, your website, all that fun stuff so that you can you can

William Vanderbloemen 49:14

no kidding. Go type and spell it however you want. That's why we named the company what we did because it's really messed up and there's not another

Leighann Lovely 49:23

so people will be able to reach out to you, William, this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and I had so much fun talking with you today.

William Vanderbloemen 49:31

Thanks so much Leighann I appreciate you having me.

Leighann Lovely 49:35

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

job, hiring, interview, work, greatest weakness, find, habits, company, love, self awareness, talk, salary, business, unicorn, day, changed, candidates, church, grew, william

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Discover how to approach office confrontations and harness healthy debate to propel your team forward. Our latest episode with leadership consultant Dotty Posto who helps leaders overcome the "Curse of Chordal Hypocrisy". Don't miss it!

Contact Dotty

Website – https://inplainsightinc.com/

E-mail - dotty@inplainsightinc.com

Leighann Lovely: [00:00:00] HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked, practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. Inclusion and diversity are common phrases, but often misunderstood.

Generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job. And how companies can create an environment to allow [00:01:00] them to do both.

Because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started. Dottie Posto, CEO and founder of In Plain Sight, a leadership consulting and coaching firm. How often in your organization do you think people are holding back what they really think or agreeing with a project or an idea when they really don't agree?

They're not saying what they really think. They're not saying what they really want to say, generally out of fear or out of loyalty. Yet outside the room, they agree with a person, they discount an idea, they discredit a leader or demean a team member. This is what Dotty calls the Curse of Chordal Hypocrisy.

It robs companies of creativity, productivity, [00:02:00] and ultimately profits. Dotty specializes in guiding leaders and teams in building trust, cultivating healthy debate, and ultimately establishing a culture of accountability and outstanding results. In addition, Dotty specializes in coaching those leaders or team members who are Quite frankly, a real jerk.

In other words, when your MVP is an ASS, these folks who rob your organization of innovation, engagement, opportunity, and ultimately revenue, Dottie guides these leaders to become the leader everyone wants to work with. Welcome Dottie. I am so excited to have you join me today.

Dotty Posto: I'm excited to be here. I think it's going to be fun.

Leighann Lovely: Yes. So why don't you start off by telling the audience a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Dotty Posto: Sure. I am a leadership [00:03:00] consultant and coach. And what I tell people is, you know, when you have that person in your office, either usually leader, but sometimes, you know, one of those office members, who's just a jerk, you know, yeah.

Yeah. So I specialize, I work with all sorts of leaders and teams and do leadership development and team development, but I do specialize with the leaders who've gotten Does not play well with others a few too many times on their report card. A friend of mine, Pat helped me coin the, the tagline for my business as when your MVP is an ASS.

That's where I come in and help that leader become the leader everyone wants to work for.

Leighann Lovely: That's awesome. Because there are some really brilliant people out there just don't get it that they're great at their job. But when it comes to actually leading [00:04:00] the team or communicating or having emotional It's just not, it's just not what, it's just not their strong point.

Dotty Posto: Yeah. I like to call it emotional fluency. Okay. I haven't heard that. Yeah. It's where, you know, under being able to be fluent, first of all, with all your own emotions. And then to be able to, I think the intelligence comes, you know, knowing there's a certain level of being intelligent, I can be intelligent about something, but not fluent and being fluent, emotional fluency is being able to ride all of the waves, experience all of them without getting caught up in them.

I mean, emotions are literally a vibration in our body. And too many people try to hold anything that they might refer to as negative. I call it constrictive. They try to hold it down like a beach ball underwater and it's going to pop up at some

Leighann Lovely: point. That's a really good analysis. Absolutely. And, and I, [00:05:00] I totally agree because when we even as children for a very long time, and this is changing.

Very much changing, but even as children, many people grew up with the idea that it's okay to laugh. It's okay to have fun, but if you're going to cry or if you're mad, go to your room.

Dotty Posto: Okay. Oh yeah. Yeah. It goes somewhere else or it's not, or don't, you know, you're going to upset daddy or you're going to, you know,

Leighann Lovely: it, and that's, that's not okay.

Like we need to understand that all emotion is normal. All emotion is okay. It's how we process and how we deal with that and that we're not allowed to, you know, go in. Punch somebody in the face. If we're feeling angry, that's not healthy, but that you need to, you need to take the moment to process that information because when you start laughing, people don't go, go to your room.

Most people are like, Oh, I'm going to laugh along with you. Unless you're in

Dotty Posto: school, [00:06:00] you know, the class clown was also, you know, the, the person who, you know, personalities have been damped down for so long that I don't, that I think so many people don't really know who they are at their core. That's yes.

And that's a lot of what I do is I help. I help people come back to who they are at their core. No one wakes up in the morning going, I'm going to be an asshole today. I'm sorry, but

Leighann Lovely: well, maybe somebody does, but they don't, they would never admit that that's the kind of person

Dotty Posto: they want to be. I know, but I kind of doubt it.

I don't, I kind of doubt they're like, I am just going to go in and be the. I'm gonna be the asshole of the, of the, you know, that's my job is to be, you know, and I think some people say it's my job to, to, you know, they, they've even learned from previous mentors that they had to lead in a very command and control and, and demeaning and degrading and aggressive that they had to be that.

You know, come out with your, with your gloves on kind of leader [00:07:00] and it's just not necessary. You can inspire, you can be firm. You can hold people accountable from a place of motivation and inspiration and, and firmness. And if you've got the base. If you've got the base and the foundation to that, that's been built on.

Leighann Lovely: So let's talk about that. So, I mean, you're, you obviously you're a coach and you're a coach, you're a consultant, you work with organizations, so you are brought in obvious and I'm going to guess that. Typically the person who is considered the ASS at the organization is not always the person who's engaging you, correct?

It's usually gonna be a board of directors, or it's gonna be a, you know, somebody who's either equal to them or above them who's gonna say, Hey, mm-Hmm . This person's highly intelligent, highly, we want them at our company. However, Dottie, what do we do? [00:08:00] How do you go about and where do you begin? This work

Dotty Posto: where we begin, if it's possible, I'll do a three 60, I'll have them do a three 60 assessment, or if they've had one recently to just at least get the perspective of their leader, get the perspective of any subordinates and get their perspective, their own perspective on what's happening.

And we really go in and start to look at. Where are their gifts and talents? Where are they spending their energy? What's, what's amplifying their energy and what's draining their energy? And are they fully aware of that? Because oftentimes they're engaged in activities that drain their energy and they don't realize it or engaged in activities that are just not in their unique ability.

They're not in their core talents. And when you do that, you have to know. That they're out of alignment so that you can resource yourself ahead of time to do those things and then also [00:09:00] have time to recover and re energize afterwards. So that's a big 1st step, getting that that assessment and and kind of gauging where they are in the self awareness.

Where do they really see and understand the impact that. Their, their actions are having, we don't go directly and focus on, okay, let's go and try and change those behaviors. Because if somebody just tries to white knuckle their way through changing behaviors, or if they're just sent to training, you know, I always call it the charm school, you know, they're sent to communications training and emotional intelligence training.

And if it doesn't come back to working on. What's going through your brain? Are you really aware of all the thoughts going through your brain, which none of us are because there's 60 to 80, 000 thoughts a day, but getting them to a point of that self awareness of what's going on in my head. And how is that making me feel?

Because oftentimes there's this baseline or this general [00:10:00] sense of annoyance, irritation, frustration, and We need to figure out they think it's coming from the people outside of them, and it's not at all. It's all coming from their thoughts. And so it's trying to help them make those connections so that they can choose different behaviors because just, you know, because if you can start to feel like I'm starting to get annoyed, where's that coming from?

I can feel the annoyance, getting that level of awareness where I have that, that agency and choice. So we take them from that deep awareness. Of first of all, where, where are my gifts and talents and where is my energy going? And what's, what is, am I aware of the impact that I'm having to start to really come into what, what is happening with.

What's going on in my head and how is that impacting and helping them see it's not everything out there because that's generally what most people think It's them. It's not me. They're overreacting or

Leighann Lovely: whatever [00:11:00] And as you're saying that, you know, I'm like again, you know the million thoughts that go through all of our heads right as you're saying this like I have these like situations or even even like And my audience, I go back to like, my husband comes home and he tells me all these stories about like, what's happening at his office or what's happening or not his office, but his, his employee employer or whatever.

And, and, and I, I try to become more self aware, especially when I'm around my five year olds, right? So, because as a parent. It's, it's very easy to get slipped into this, like, why isn't she doing what I'm telling her to do? And then you can feel the stress rise up in you. And then that tone happens in my voice.

And my daughter, like, knows when that happens. And then she just pokes the bear. And she's just like, ooh, mommy's upset. Like, and so then she just... Digs in and she's like, no, I'm not going to do that. And I'm like, but you have to do, like, why aren't you listening? [00:12:00] And it just, and it just snowballs into like me all of a sudden raising my voice.

My husband looking at me going, she's not going to react to you yelling at her. You know that she doesn't, she. thinks it's funny and it's like, okay. And so I've, I have personally, you know, tried to become more self aware, keeping my voice regulated, understanding when I can feel my blood pressure start to go up and we, we as people, it's much easier to see it happen in somebody else.

But it's really hard to recognize, you know, cause I, I'll look at my husband and go, is it happening to me? Am I starting to, is my voice going up? Like, and, and I'll do the same to him. Like, okay, you're getting annoyed. I'm gonna take over. You go, I don't know, outside and run around the block or something before you like have a heart attack because you're so, like I can see it in your shoulder.

And when you're at a job, [00:13:00] which you know, for me and you, we work remotely, we work, you know, we're independents were, so I don't have to watch it. So I listened to my husband's stories, but he'll come home and be like, Oh, you should have seen so and so today. You could just see in his walk, you know, and he's like, so I didn't talk to him because I knew that if I did, it would be an immediate explosion of just blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, exactly.

Dotty Posto: And so many people. Are you get it? You've got a situation where if you have a leader that that is their modus operandi, that's their that's the mode they operate in on a consistent basis. They do exactly what your husband did. They avoid them, right? Or they please them. They agree with them.

It's what I call the curse of cordial hypocrisy. They please them, they say yes, they agree, and outside the room they're like, that's a bunch of garbage, [00:14:00] that'll never fly, that person's a jerk, you know, and that's all happening outside the room, and inside the room they're like, mm hmm, yeah, great idea, Joe, that's a, Jayden, that's a really good idea, I think we should do that, and outside the room they're like, that'll never fly, we've done that before and it failed.

Leighann Lovely: Oh my God, duh, right? And then no progress is ever made. And then you get

Dotty Posto: no creativity. You get productivity goes down the tubes because half the time, and if you've got a great, if you've got a remote workforce, even several, a few days a week. How much time are they spending on teams behind the scenes bitching and complaining, you know, talking about other people, talking about all the challenges and they're not productive, you're losing productivity, you're losing creativity, you're losing innovation, you're going to hit risks that nobody wanted to bring up because they were too afraid.

That something, you know, that something was going to, somebody was going to fly off the handle. I'm not saying anything. And no one wants to give feedback for the same reason, right? So not my job.

Leighann Lovely: Right. And if [00:15:00] it's, I'm

Dotty Posto: not going to say anything, I'm going to get, they're too afraid. They're either too afraid or they're too loyal.

Maybe they're worked with that person for so long that it's like, Oh, you know, they're going through a hard time, but you know,

Leighann Lovely: anybody is. And if you're a subordinate to that person, which is usually the case, You can't call the person out because you risk being fired or reprimanded or so this cycle will continue to, which is why high turnover in people who have managers like that because they either agree constantly and become the yes person or they do stand up and they say something and that manager goes, well, I don't need this.

stress, and they just get rid of the person because they think that person is the problem.

Dotty Posto: And that, that very well can happen. This is why one of the, one of the pillars of [00:16:00] what we do in organizations like this, because oftentimes it isn't just this one leader. So that's why I like pairing the individual coaching with some team development, whether that's, you know, the CEO and a senior lead senior leadership team, or a senior leader and their team.

Building a culture of feedback is so important, but you can't have that if you don't have the underlying trust. And if you don't have that opportunity, the opposite of the cordial hypocrisy, the healthy opposite of that is healthy debate. Can we have an argument about the ideas without getting personal, without being aggressive and, and, and even maybe our voices get loud.

But it's passion about the idea, and it's passion about the experience, and it's making sure that what we're doing is right for the company, you can, you know, getting to that passionate level of debate so that you can have a place where the subordinate can go to a person and go, you know, what, [00:17:00] what just happened in that room?

You know, you don't call them out right in the middle of the meeting. And some, some organizations get to that level where it's like, well, we need a timeout here. What just happened really, I think is hurting people in the room, you know, and there's organizations that have that level. But even if you could, even if you can build the culture to the point of being able to have a subordinate, go to their boss afterwards and say, Here's what I saw happen, and here's the impact that I saw on the team, and here's the impact that it had on me, and I think this is going to be destructive over time.

Leighann Lovely: Have you seen organization, and you know, this in my head, I'm like, that would be so amazing to work in an organization in which you had that level of trust with your manager as well as your subordinates. And I have, I've had the opportunity to work with. with people who reported to me and I, and, and, and every time I would say, I am not like, [00:18:00] I'm not a butterfly.

You don't have to, you know, handle me in a way. And if I ever say something, if I ever do something, if I ever make you feel uncomfortable in. Any way ever, you just need to come out with it, just plain and simple. I didn't like this. We'll talk about it. And most likely if, if it's, you know, if I made you feel uncomfortable, I'm going to apologize because it, there's, there's not going to be a debate about it because it's about your feelings.

You felt a certain way. And then I'm going to say, I'm sorry, I made you feel that way. Let's figure out how we can rectify that situation so that you don't feel that way again. Doesn't mean that I was necessarily wrong in that situation. However,

Dotty Posto: I, yeah, I think the language is really, you have to be really careful with that language because [00:19:00] our feelings come from our thoughts, right?

And so if I'm doing something, if a behavior I'm doing is having a negative effect. Yes. If it's hurting people, yes, I want to know that that negative impact is there, right? And we have to, I think there's people, it's a gray area in between because people can take it, you know, well, I can't make you feel anything because really our thoughts create our feelings.

However, there are things that we do and say that are, are just out of line and that are just rude and are from a place of, of.

What is the word? I can't even think of the word where it's, it's, they're, they're meaning harm, you know, and, and, you know, it's like the, the oath, the Hippocratic oath, do no, you know, first do no harm. Right. You know, as long as you're not intentionally harming. And sometimes we unintentionally harm people with what we say and what we do.

Right. And you can't just [00:20:00] pass that off. It's, it's our thoughts. And some people have a pattern of thinking that everything they see, they have this confirmation bias that everything they see is against them.

Leighann Lovely: Yes. And you're right. And I always what am I trying to say, you know, situations or perception is reality that, so the way that people perceive a situation.

That is the reality to them and the, the reality of, of each situation is yes, everybody's feelings of the difference that that's their own, I mean, we can have five people sitting in a room and all walk out feeling a completely different way. I can't control people's feelings. However, if I'm, if I am doing an action, let's say we'll use something really, really stupid as an example, but we're going to use it to really dumb this down.

If I have a manager who's, let's say an old school manager, cause I'm going to use an example. I'm going to kind of change the situation here a little [00:21:00] bit. I, I had a shirt that was to me being my age at that time, I was in my twenties. I didn't believe that it was that low of a cut shirt. Okay. But I had a much older manager when I was in my twenties and he pulled me aside, basically said it's inappropriate for the work setting.

And I'm like, Okay, but it's not that low cut. They had a special dress code and everything else. And his idea was you're making people feel uncomfortable with a shirt that is cut that low in the work environment. And I thought, how could I be making people feel uncomfortable? By wearing this type. Now, perception is reality.

If he felt uncomfortable because he didn't feel that it was business appropriate or business attire appropriate, perception is reality. To [00:22:00] him, he was my boss. So he basically put, and very tactfully said, and you know, I didn't find it in an appropriate conversation. It was, you know, people feel a little uncomfortable with what you're wearing.

Okay. That was a learning experience for me when I was in my twenties. Don't wear, and again, it's not like I had my breasts hanging out, but and so I've always made certain that if there are situations in which something that I'm doing, I would so much prefer that somebody just walk up to me and say, here's what, what your action was.

This is how I perceived it and therefore I feel this way. Okay, perfect. Let's lay all of our feelings out there. I then have a great

Dotty Posto: way to put it, right? This is what I perceive is. This is my perception of that action or that those words

Leighann Lovely: because I very [00:23:00] well did. I had no intent of walking into that office that day with a shirt that, I mean, that was not my intent at all.

In fact, I thought, wow, I look really great. I look really professional. That was my intent and that's how I perceived myself. And three other people said, well, you look great. Because again, perception is reality, but until we are told differently, our own perception cannot change until we step into somebody else's shoes and find out that there are alternative perceptions equaling then alternative feelings about it.

And that's where it gets to be such a sticky situation. Because you have no idea, and some of those things we can change. I mean, if somebody says red makes me feel bad, well, you can't, [00:24:00] you can't avoid wearing red at all. You know, that's, it's just one of those things that unfortunately you can't accommodate all situations.

But we can attempt to eliminate.

Dotty Posto: Yeah. Let me give you a perfect example of that. I I, I come from a family of seven. I have seven siblings. So there's eight kids and my two parents, my parents are gone now, but I grew up in a family of 10 people and it was loud. Everybody was loud. Most everybody. And my husband even says, yes, you come from the loud family.

And so oftentimes when I'm

But there's times where I start speaking like this and you can probably hear me just fine and this is lower than my normal volume and it's taken me. I still sometimes have to like, recalibrate, recalibrate [00:25:00] people would get offended and think I was yelling at them when I wasn't. It was just my natural voice.

And for some people, for some leaders, they might just say, well, that's just who I am. It takes time and practice. I had a peer on at the time who would sit next to me and under the table, he would just do this, which meant bring down the volume because I was, you know, part of it would be if I was getting excited and people would take it as I was getting angry.

I'm like, I'm almost never angry, but it's just, it's that habit that you. You don't even, I don't even hear it all the time because It was a habit that I grew up with that I think is just a part of who I am, and it's not. It's a habit. It's not a great habit. It's a habit.

Leighann Lovely: Have you ever been around a Greek [00:26:00] family?

My, my my dad married a Greek woman, okay? So, I think part of the reason I'm losing my hearing, or I'm having trouble with my hearing, is because in our family, you know, holidays, by the end, we'd all practically be losing our voice because it was a fight to be heard. Now my, we go to a restaurant and I, and I do really have problems with my hearing in background noise.

And that's, it's actually a lot more common than. Then I knew when you're at a networking meeting or you're at a restaurant that has, you know, music playing and my husband does this to me all the time, he'll look at me and go, why are you screaming at me? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And he goes, you're yelling.

And I'm like, Oh, I am. And I realize it's because there's music playing in the restaurant or there's people talking and I [00:27:00] can't hear him. So I assume it's loud. So I start yelling across the table

Dotty Posto: at him. Exactly. Exactly. And these are just, you know, silly examples and it's the same thing with a leader who is triggered by something, you know, that gets defensive and whatever their defense mechanism is that they probably learned when they were seven and they just don't realize it.

You know, it was, it was whatever habit that, that they developed to, to become, to be safe, to be heard, to be loved, to belong, to, you know, all of these things. And they're just patterns and habits that they, it's like water to the fish. They don't even know what's there. It is so ingrained and to be able to, to be able to some distance between that behavior and to get, get somebody who they trust, who can give them some kind of a sign, some kind of a thing, or even afterwards to say.[00:28:00]

It happened again, right? Or they could, you know, they could have a, a little facial, they'll put their finger on their cheek or, you know, maybe tap their chin or just something that says. It's happening again because bringing that level of awareness, giving somebody feedback after the fact is fine, you know, and if you do that enough, they're going to start to go.

Oh, yeah, I can kind of see that then you want to pull it back further so that as they are doing it, they can realize and they can drop the voice. They can do whatever and they can shift. See if they can shift, they can at least recognize it while they're doing it and they might not be able to shift. The next step is to pull it back where they recognize it in the moment and they're able to make the shift in the moment.

The, the, the real, you know, getting to the real point of mastery is where you can start to feel, well, there's two, two other levels. One is you start to feel the emotion that triggers that action. [00:29:00] And you can, you can feel it coming and you might not be able to stop it, but you can start to feel. And, and that's why helping people to actually feel the vibrations in their body for all the different emotions.

What does anger feel like? What was, what does annoyance feel like? What does irritation feel like? And all these have a slightly different vibration in our body and getting people to actually become in tune with that. And I actually have an exercise a tool that I use from a coaching program that I went through called the Tears of Emotions and getting people to actually purposefully feel all these different emotions.

And start to feel what does it feel like in their body? And where do I, do I feel, you know, do I feel something in my throat? Do I feel something in my gut? Do I feel something in the, the pit of my stomach or in my lower back? And when you can start to feel that, and sometimes you might not be able to stop it, you might still, you know, spew some garbage or, you [00:30:00] know, start to turn red and irritated or shut down.

You've got the other ones that. But just lean back and shut down, but getting to the point of then being able to say, here's how I want to intentionally come into this. You know, I know that, that, you know, in these kinds of situations, I tend to blah, blah, blah. I tend to, you know, raise my voice. I tend to shut down the conversation.

I tend to maybe cut up, cut people off and interrupt and try to go into it more intentionally, but the more they can use their thoughts to actually create a feeling of, I'm going to be open. I am going to be you know, and it's interesting, we, we were at an event together and I loved how the speaker put it being fertile ground, you know, how can, that's one thing is that, that I will use because active listening is one thing.

Being fertile ground for, you know, as a listener is a whole nother level.

Leighann Lovely: Correct. That, and I agree with that because and here's with everything that you just said, like, [00:31:00] as you were saying, like knowing your body's reaction, I, I early on I, my listeners know my mental health history. I struggled with anger management.

And so very early on in my, in my age, my journey I was taught how to understand because I used to get angry to the point of seeing red to the point where sometimes I wouldn't remember what I did after I hit that level where it would be like, okay, did I just do, what did I just do? And that has to do with my bipolar disorder.

So from a very early, when I started going through, I went through like three years of like intensive anger management. Again, tied to bipolar, it's not uncommon that people who have mental health also have, you know, other avenues. Anyways, point being is that I can feel My entire, I mean, that physical change that there's with emotion, you know, when you, when you laugh to the point of when you're [00:32:00] crying, you can feel your body usually get lighter.

You can feel those endorphins being released when you get angry. It's the same physiological. Change happening where you can feel that bubbling up to the point of, you know, and I, I can feel my whole entire face start to get red. I can feel the blood moving into in, you know, into my head. I can feel my hands start to shake and that has, it hasn't happened in so long.

I haven't been that. Angry because I'm able to stop it where I'm actually able to go. Okay, we need to breathe. We need to Evaluate that situation we need to but having that heightened awareness of your emotions you you're able to actually Control take a step back breathe or whatever it is that you do in order to Kind of control that and then go, okay, let me assess the situation.

Like, should I be this angry? Should I be [00:33:00] this emotional? Should I be and sometimes it is, especially sadness, I think is one of the ones that kind of, it's hard to control that. Because usually, you know, if there's a death of the family, those types of things are, are probably the most difficult, but, and I think

Dotty Posto: the word control is very appropriate and yet very cautionary.

Yeah, and the reason I say that is that. If you're in a situation where that emotion isn't appropriate. And oftentimes we want to distinguish between. Am I feeling my emotion? Am I allowing the emotion, which is a vibration in our body, or am I expressing it? Those are two very different things. Right. To, to actually raise your voice, to pound your fist on the table, to scream, to cry, to, to whatever it is.

That is the expression that [00:34:00] is a performative expression of that emotion. The emotion is actually a vibration in our body and we can allow it. And regardless, if, if sometimes you need to have a physical release of an emotion, it might not be in that moment. I always recommend to people make a promise to yourself.

That at five o'clock when you get home or six o'clock, whatever, when you're in a space where you can, you promise yourself that you're going to feel it right. And maybe in that moment, you don't get as angry as you thought you might have been. And we don't want to just stuff them down because again, it's like trying to hold the beach ball underwater.

Right. Eventually it's going to pop up. Right. People end up with strokes, heart attacks you know, different internal diseases. Cancer all sorts of things because we've stuffed our emotions down for so long,

Leighann Lovely: right? And you're right control is not the rights.

Dotty Posto: It's what it is I mean, it's [00:35:00] controlling you want you may want to control the situation.

So I think it can be appropriate I want to control my reaction. Yeah, because in the moment, I don't want to react so I think control is a great word I just don't want people to interpret that as I have to control it and then close the door on it. Like I'm pushing, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to close the door and leave it there.

That's how I control it. That's

Leighann Lovely: different. Yeah. No, not shoving it in a closet to never be seen again, but

Dotty Posto: it's, it's what's appropriate in the moment. What's going to actually move the conversation forward. What is going to get us the goal we're looking for? And maybe for some people it might be. You know what?

Something I'm triggered in this and I am so angry. I cannot have this conversation right now. Give me 10 minutes. Let me go. I need to go take a walk. I need to go think about this. I need to and really what they need is they need to go allow the emotion for a while, right? And whatever that looks like. A lot of people will go and say, I'm going to go for a run.

I'm going to go for a [00:36:00] walk. And all they're doing again is avoiding the emotion. I'm going to go

Leighann Lovely: take a baseball bat to your car. No, I'm sorry. That is an unhealthy expression. Go scream in a pillow.

Dotty Posto: Or I always, this is one way I recommend people. If you do feel like you can't like one of you have, it is bubbling up so hard and you can't allow it.

Is take a plastic baseball bat to your bed. Yeah. You know, those kids baseball bats

Leighann Lovely: take that to the bed. Mine was, mine was the screaming in a pillow, just laying down and just screaming at the top of my lungs. And it was like, okay, now I feel great. That's, that's all I needed to do. I just needed to release whatever that was that like bubbled up in me and, and now I'm fine.

Like, and it's different for everybody. Like, you know, and sometimes it was, I need to go and cry for a second. Don't tell me that this is a situation in which I don't need to [00:37:00] cry. There's no reason to feel it. I just need to feel it, you know, and now that we are finally getting to a point in society where it's like.

Oh, it's okay to feel emotion. Like I'm not ashamed to be like, yep, I give me 10 minutes. I'm going to go feel what I need to feel. I'm going to go, I don't know, be pissed off at the situation for 10 minutes and then clean my face up and I'll be right back and then we can have dinner. Yeah. Yeah.

Dotty Posto: Exactly.

Because when our emotions are so heightened like that. We are in fight, flight, or freeze. And when we're in fight, flight, or freeze, our prefrontal cortex goes offline. We literally do not have access. To our thinking, planning, strategizing, we can't be logical because all the brain, all of the blood comes out of that part of our brain that fight, flight, or freeze, it goes [00:38:00] to the big muscle group so that we can run or defend and our body goes in to defend.

Because we literally think that we're going to die. Our brain, our primitive brain, is literally thinking that we're going to die. Interesting. Our primitive brain and our prefrontal cortex... They've evolved differently. And so we have to understand that this is all natural, right? It is natural for you to get pissed off because you think that this person, like there's your body, your brain, that primitive part of your brain thinks you're actually, you know, it's like get back in the cave, you know, or go fight the law, you know, because you're going to die, right?

We are trying to save humanity here. That's what you're, that's what your permanent brain is thinking. We are trying to save you.

Leighann Lovely: Wow. That's, and that's, it, it makes. Yes. It makes sense because every other creature, every other mammal out there has that [00:39:00] innate Instinctual reaction to either run or fight, whereas

Dotty Posto: did you ever see a bird hit a window and then it lays on the ground for a while and you think it's dead.

Leighann Lovely: Oh, yeah. I've picked him up before and like, I should get rid of this. And then they go like, right. And then you're like, Oh, my God.

Dotty Posto: They're totally fine. Right. You know. It happens in the, in the in the, in the, you know, out on the, the, what the planes, whatever, out in, you know, where an animal will play dead because then they might be left alone.

Right.

Leighann Lovely: I had a hawk hit my, my front door. I mean, a huge, huge hawk. It sounded like somebody was trying to break into my house. And and then it sat for eight hours. Eight hours. In our neighborhood and, and my neighbors were like, we couldn't understand why this hawk wouldn't leave. And I'm like, how long did it sit in your yard?

They're like, for like four hours. And I'm like, Oh my God, because it hit so hard [00:40:00] that it, it couldn't move. It just, and it was beautiful. I mean this, I've never seen one. So, cause it was, I mean, this thing was, I'm making hand gestures like my audience can see me, but yeah, that's and so it's, it's goes.

To show that, you know, animals and we are an animal and, but because we're intelligent, we think that, that we're beyond our, our, you know, nature, which is not true. No,

Dotty Posto: so that part of our brain is still there. We just have to, you know, and my, the coach that I went through training with says. It's like a two year old with a knife, right?

You know, and I always call it a two year old with a red crayon in a white room. Yeah. Yeah. You know, fun times. And it's like, you can, you can allow them to be there. Somebody else talks about it as you can allow that to be there. You can allow that part of you to be there. Just don't leave them in the driver's seat, put them in the backseat saying, yeah, you can come along.

Anxiety, [00:41:00] depression, you know, I gotcha. You know, I understand you're here today. You're here along with me. I'm going to carry you around like a heavy purse or whatever it is. You know, but don't let them, don't put them in the driver's seat. How do we not allow them to get into the driver's seat? Right.

Leighann Lovely: So you and I want to cover this really quick because we're coming to time already and geez, but you use a triple the triple a foundation, often authenticity, accountability and action. How do you, I mean, and we've talked quite a bit about, you know, the different ways that, that you work with these individuals, how, how does that play a role?

Dotty Posto: So. Authenticity this, I mean, probably 15 years ago, I even came up, I mean. When I, what I talked about earlier, who we are at our core, helping people come back to who they are at their core. What are your preferences? What are your gifts? What are your talents? And operating from that, starting to [00:42:00] know about what that part of that, what that developed self is that you developed around it, those habits and patterns that served you as a five year old that served you as a teenager that served you as a young adult that just no longer serve you.

And. helping to come to that awareness. So that to me is the authenticity piece. Okay. The accountability piece is then becoming responsible as how can I hold myself responsible and accountable for being that person and for, for being aware of that developed self and being aware of what I. What I have agency over getting agency over those habits and patterns that have ruled our life for so long my life, anyone's life, and I've ruled our life for so long and then building.

I use the 5 dysfunctions of a team often. So accountability from a team perspective. Has to do with building trust, healthy debate and commitment in that order to [00:43:00] get to that point of accountability. Only then can we actually start to look at, okay, what actions are we going to do differently? Yes. And you walked through

Leighann Lovely: all of those

Dotty Posto: and we can't just focus on action because then we're just trying to white knuckle.

And like I said, the other piece of it is our thoughts and our feelings drive our actions. Our thoughts drive our feelings. Our feelings drive our actions. You know, they'll tell you that in sales, everything is an emotional sale. We only buy something because of how we think it's going to make us feel.

Right. And we feel that way because how we think about it, because you're going to buy something for a very different reason than I'm going to buy it. Absolutely.

Leighann Lovely: And that's, and, and I love the study, obviously you, you know, I love the study of people. The reason I have this podcast, the reason I go into the reason I have a sales business is because everybody is unique.

Everybody has unique needs, but there is a product out there that people will buy all for their own selfish reason. And to solve the problem and are driven [00:44:00] by their own selfish, and that's not a bad thing by their own selfish desire to solve the problem. And if it's a personal thing, the way that it makes them feel at the end of the day, you know, so we are coming to time and I want to ask you the question of the season.

This season it is what do you think will go down in the history books of what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Dotty Posto: You know, when I first looked at this question, the thing, you know, when you look at 3 years, obviously COVID is such a huge part of that. And it would be very interesting to, you know, I heard recently about some people who worked on COVID 5 years before it hit the U.

And, and was, were a part of some research, research and things and. The research got shut down. And so they ended up working for a company out of China because they could see what was coming. That that's [00:45:00] kind of like the, what seems to be like the no brainer answer is COVID when you look back the last three years, and I don't think we're far enough into it, and I think this whole, the whole situation between Palestine.

And Israel is probably a potential for making the history books. I'm not close enough to it. I don't know enough about it and where things are going to, what I'm hearing about it in terms of how long it's going to last. I think if we look from here back, COVID is obviously one of the big things, I think from here going forward is potentially this, you know, the situation with the Ukraine and, and Russia and then Palestine and Israel.

Leighann Lovely: And it's, it's amazing how how much this world has changed. In such a short period of time, what [00:46:00] we, what if, you know, had somebody asked me four years ago what the world would have looked like, there is no possible way that anybody could have predicted the amount of things that have happened in such a short period of time with, you know, a world shutdown with, you know, another uprising.

I mean, these are just. Moments in history repeating themselves, but another uprising with, you know, riots in the street you know, race wars another possible, I mean, with everything happening, is this going to turn into a world war depending on so yeah, I mean, it's, it's such a, such a strange time in history that so many things are being squashed into a very, short time spanned that it's that it's wildly interesting.

So if somebody wanted to reach out to you how would they go about doing that? [00:47:00]

Dotty Posto: My website is inplainsiteinc.com or they can email me at dotty @ inplainsightinc and it's plain P L A I N and site S I G H T. So inplain, dotty at inplainsightinc. com. D O T T Y that is not D O T T I E D O T T Y at in plain sight, inc.

Leighann Lovely: com. Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes for anybody who is interested in reaching out to Dottie. I'm sure that you can also find her on some social media platforms, but you know, please feel free to reach out to her if you are looking for a coaching and consulting, if you have a leader that.

Is an ASS . It was an awesome conversation. Dotty, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me. It's been a, it's been a blast. Thanks for having me, Leanne. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk hr. I appreciate your time and support. Without you, the audience, this would not be possible, so don't forget that.

If you enjoyed this [00:48:00] episode to follow us, like us or share us, have a wonderful day.

Adam Gellert serial entrepreneur and lifer in the staffing industry joins me for a very enlighten conversation about the future of staffing and the workforce as we know it. Adam now the Founder and CEO of HireHippo and The Linkus Group Inc. permanent placement firms that take a different approach to hiring individuals. As he has moved through his career, he saw gaps in the market and have shifted to fill those gaps. Now offering a network of top talent of passive candidates, eliminating resume reviews and focusing on skills and culture. Join this amazing conversation with a forward-thinking entrepreneur.

Contact Adam -

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamgellert/

Websites –

Recruiteradam.com

hiredhippo.ai

linkushr.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

Adam Gellert is on a mission to build the greatest marketplace of pre vetted diverse high potential candidates and companies, reshaping the job application process with candidate experience and helping companies hire their most passionate teammates from one to 250. He eats, sleeps and breathes recruitment. He can talk for hours about anything to do with growth of an organization from a people standpoint, attraction, retention, culture fit alignment and best practices in the modern world. He's an entrepreneur at heart currently on a mission to reshape recruitment and change the candidate experience. Founder and CEO at hire hippo, a hiring marketplace connecting pre vetted high potential diverse candidates and companies based on mutual interest like a dating app and saying goodbye to resumes. He noticed a gap in the industry as a founder of Linksys group, a recruitment firm supporting startups and SMBs in Canada and US. His typical clients is under 50 people. He started the company with the intent to disrupt the recruitment industry. And they are doing just that he has a fantastic team. And they work very hard to build championship teams for their clients that can sustain a winning outlook again and again since 2002. He has been instrumental in building teams both at the corporate and recruitment agency levels. He is known for building strong relationships with clients as an honest, driven and progressive individual with major organizations across Canada and the United States. With a passion for delivering cost savings and efficient business results. He took the next step in offering clients an alternative to traditional hiring. He's active in the tech startup and small business community co created the talent help list co created the disrupt HR Vaughn and previous chair, hR p a PD dinner committee, their leading KPI, it's their reoccurring clients a testament to the value they bring. I am very excited to talk to Adam, a serial entrepreneur. Adam, welcome. I am excited to talk with you today. Thank you for joining me.

Adam Gellert 03:36

Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being here.

Leighann Lovely 03:40

Yeah. So why don't you start off and, you know, tell everybody a little bit, you know, a little background about who you are and what you do.

Adam Gellert 03:48

Yeah, so I'm Adam Gellert, the founder of the linkage group, and higher tempo. Essentially, I run both a high touch recruiting agency as well as a recruitment technology that we will, that we believe will change the face of how people get hired and how companies hire their high performers. Essentially, what the tech does is works with SMBs and startups that go from one to 250 people on getting quick access to exclusive high potential pre vetted talent without having to worry about recruiting the recruiting process, they can skip the entire recruitment process and go straight to interview because we do all that upfront work for them with the technology so that's what I'm doing now also involved, co founded the talent helpless, which was a COVID layoff list. It was like the first of its kind that I'm aware of anyways, and disrupt HR Vaughn, which is global HR disrupt, disrupt as a global HR brand. So I'm just obsessed and very involved in the recruitment process that I have been for the last two decades, essentially. You know, we can talk about anything to do with attraction, hiring, retention, and that's just a bit about me.

Leighann Lovely 05:20

Awesome. Yeah, you are. You're a serial entrepreneur, you've been in the industry of staffing in one way or another for the last two decades. That is, that's amazing. So, you know, I say that, once you're in the staffing industry, you're either a lifer, or you run like how the other way after a couple of years because you can't handle the stress. So you're clearly a lifer in the staffing industry, which is, which is awesome, because it's, it definitely grabs hold of you, doesn't it?

Adam Gellert 05:53

Oh, yeah. I like pain. I like pain.

Leighann Lovely 05:58

Right? That's that? Yep. Absolutely.

Adam Gellert 06:01

Yeah, I find that like, you know, just based on, you know, what you said, I It's so true, right? Like most people, it's the, you know, industry that most people just I don't like it when, you know, people won't not necessarily don't like but you know, a lot of people say Hey, should I get into recruiting because I like people or like connecting people. And it's not just, you know, it's very surface level expectation of the industry and the role, it's extremely hard. You know, it can be life sucking at times that can be very thankless, and you just have to have a like, really big passion for developing really strong connections in, in the work environment, making sure that it's a long term game with long term people. And that, you know, essentially, like you can, you can, you know, roll with very hard scenarios and, you know, still love connecting people that can accelerate their career and companies that can, you know, hire their top performers that go on to really, really great things. That's the key. It's a business strategy over a people strategy.

Leighann Lovely 07:16

So tell me about Linksys because you said that this is a tech, it's technology connecting people. What type of recruitment is this? Is it? Is it on the general labor? Is it high level individuals explain what that app or that technology does?

Adam Gellert 07:37

Yeah, that's, that's a fair question. So Linkous is our high touch agency, where we focus primarily on senior director level and executive searches for SMBs for small, medium sized businesses and startups looking to, to go from sort of bootstrap to Series B. So we focus on the small business market, mainly, talent that's interested in startups, the roles that we work on are, are very diverse, we always say that, like, you know, we'll be as selective as, as, as our clients. And the main thing is that the role has to be hard to fill as to be very niche, right? Like if the, if our clients can do it on their own, we're just not, it's just, you know, we kind of let them do it on their own and say, Hey, like, you know, we're gonna scour the market and make sure that you get the best person which comes back to like, what I wanted to create when I started this, which was, you know, we run basically on one KPI which is repeat business, I found that a lot of other agencies and why I kind of wanted to almost, you know, quit the space was it was very much, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall. That's a term that a lot of companies use that they're like, this is why we don't like working with recruiters. It was very, like, quantity over quality. I mean, you know, it's to no recruiters fault necessarily, it's people are drip are incentivized by these like high quality high quantity you know, outreaches so, you know, our focus is just really like high quality engagements and repeat business and then we do we created after about, you know, five years of being in business, what we found is that a lot of our customers graduated from us so they would hire you know, engineers, sales and, you know, Customer Success staff or their, you know, do CTO and once they hit about 50 people, they would start bringing in recruiters right because they would say hey, you know, we're getting to this size we've got you know, a lot more money we're invulnerable sleazy for for these niche roles, but we're gonna use recruiters and then to the recruiters all the time and they would say, you know, hey, we're using like LinkedIn. And we're using like other tools that are out there. And Dede was not driving back great quality results, they are that quantity game, right. So a lot of time is spent going through applications, and sitting in unfit interviews. And it's a poor waste of not only recruiter that wants to excel in their career, I mean, you want to be having great conversations. And so what we wanted to do is create a very niche, you know, marketplace of high potential pre vetted, exclusive talent, where they could post a role to the people that they actually want to interview, not the whole world. And that's how hired hippo came to be. And so we've do the same industry, you know, full time, sales, marketing, customer success. In the app, we don't focus on tech, actually. So it's more non tech roles, customer facing roles on the text on on our on our app, and that sort of long story short,

Leighann Lovely 11:09

right? So do the the, do the candidates come to you? Or are you out there sourcing them? And then introducing them to your app?

Adam Gellert 11:21

Yeah, great question. So we, like a recruiting agency, we go after high potential passive talent, right? And we say to them, like, look, we're going to identify what's really important to you in terms of your next salary, your you know, how close are you to your house? Or is it remote in office hybrid? You know, what are the alignment factors that are super important for you to be successful, happy and stay at a job for a really long time, we have a 95% retention rate of candidates that stay here and beyond, just within the app, where companies and candidates are connecting directly to each other. And it's because we do that due diligence into alignment and weighed certain questions and answers together to form like a really good match. And so we do go out and, you know, market to and, and, and talk to candidates, and most of the candidates that we talked to are not actively looking for new role, they're not going to apply through LinkedIn. And indeed, they may or may not answer a LinkedIn request, they may or may not get a referral. You know, they're, they're, you know, content, but they're open to potentially a new opportunity, maybe not now, maybe down the line. And so we have sort of, like that recruiter pool available to our customers

Leighann Lovely 12:50

interesting. And that's, you know, you get to a certain level of your career, where, you know, you're you are happy, but there's certain you max out, you hit the ceiling, right, where, you know, I've been now at this company for 10 years, you at a certain level, and there are certain individuals who they really that that's like the time limit of you expect them to be at this company for 10 years, they've done everything they can possibly do. So that's a perfect place for them to be able to say, Okay, now I've, I've fixed all the problems at this company. Now, I'm basically just kind of sitting here doing and at a certain level, you know, those individuals then move on to fix the next company. And you see that sometimes in CEOs CFOs, you know, those high level C suite type, you know, positions, or whether that be a, you know, a director of sales who their, their specific, I guess, role is to go in and fix the sales department and get them up and operating. And then they move on to another role where they go in and they specialize in fixing. And that would be like, the perfect type of app for them. Because yeah, hey, I'm not ready to move now. But I might be ready in two or three years. And if those are really niche, or really high level positions, I would want my information out there so that I'm constantly like, hey, if I am a match to a company that could be looking and then another one to two years, then yeah, look at my information and tell me if I'm the could be, you know, it's it's it's great transparency on both sides. But it's also letting people know, like, here's here's the thing, I don't I don't want to put my resume on indeed or those other places because I don't want to get slammed and and I recently went through this where all of a sudden, I'm getting slammed with all these people who are like, Hey, are you looking for a job here? Are you looking for a job? And I got like 30 requests for jobs that one I would never in a million years be interested in and to wear and not to sound like I'm boasting about myself. We're way beneath me. Again, you smile. But yeah, that I mean, it sounds like it's a great, a great app, a great way to connect people of a certain skill level or a certain position with companies who are looking for very specific people.

Adam Gellert 15:22

Yeah, that's exactly it. I mean, you hit so many great points there. You know, jobs are really just business problems that need to be solved. And like you said, sometimes you are in to solve that. No one project or, you know, you did so well, that, and you keep doing so well, that you kind of, you know, put yourself out of out of a role and a lot of people approach us in those in those scenarios that want to start looking before or, you know, the company is about to exit. You know, there's there's hundreds of scenarios, right, it all comes down to alignment. And like Reed Hoffman from LinkedIn says it's about a tour of duty. Right. So, you know, we, I do talk a lot about like you do three years, like, it depends on the environment, what's happening, right, like, there's so many intangibles, but, you know, three years would be a good time to, you know, have the ability to make some really good impact. You could be at a place for 1015 years and continue to grow. But it's, that's not always the case. Right? So I mean, most people change jobs every 18 months, was like the last stat that I read, right? And so what we find is that there's a lot of great people that, you know, are, you know, open and ready, and the pain for them is that they have to go look on job boards, they have to look at applying, and then they have to like, you know, message the hiring manager on LinkedIn to stand out or get a referral. And now everybody's doing that, right. So that's just not the best way to stand out. Because everyone's messaging, the hiring manager, everyone's sending, you know, a cake with your name on it, right? Like it's not, it's not something completely different than then, you know, when you were the first or second person to do that. So what we find is that look, recruitment, the recruitment process sucks for both companies and candidates. It's a very lengthy time consuming process for candidates, and you could make the wrong career choice or career trajectory. Because you're not thinking about, you know, do I want to be five minutes goes to my house, do I want to be remote? Do I want to be in office and hear other people on the phone? Because that's where I'm at, in my current life? Maybe? You know, maybe I just had a kid and I want to be at home like, there. Everyone's different, right? No, two people are the same. No two work environments are exactly the same. And we found that by just digging in, this is like, 20 years worth of research on, you know, what's a really high quality match, and we don't get it right 100% of the time, but we like to think we get it right close to that. Right. So figuring out what motivates candidates to make a career move, are they making the right decision and just show them those roles, will eliminate all a lot of the pain that you talked about? Which is, you know, I might have to always consistently think about my next career move. What if there was this product that was thinking about that for me? And I don't have to talk to 100 recruiters, I don't have to wait till it's too late. That kind of thing.

Leighann Lovely 18:31

Right? Right. And that's, and that is the problem, when you do get to a certain level that if all of a sudden you don't have a job, it takes time, because there are not, you know, like a, like a general laborer position, when you've got 30 positions open down the street, there, there's not that many sea level positions that that are right for you just waiting for you to step into. I mean, there's a finite amount. And I have worked and I'm sure you've worked with, when, you know, all of the sudden you see, you know, a CEO, or a director of change management or some weird, weird role, that you're like, Okay, what exactly do you do? That person will sometimes end up unemployed for months, a year. I have, I'm working with somebody who has been unemployed now for a year and a half. Because he's, he just doesn't want to relocate again. And right now, where he's located, there aren't any positions that suit him. Especially at his 140k salary.

Adam Gellert 19:50

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, here's the thing that I'm you know, I'm gonna say that, you know, I don't think everyone's gonna be happy with like, people. We really shouldn't be out of a job, and it's not their fault, it's that we haven't set people up for success. So I don't want to put the blame on anyone and I, you know, feel awful when someone has been knocked down, you know, hundreds of times for a year and a half, that's like the worst thing that I would ever want to see. And this is what keeps me in recruiting because, you know, I really believe that everyone should wake up fulfilled in, you know, when they go to work and fulfilled when they go home at the end of the day and happy with what they're doing, but employed in something and not have to, you know, try and find a job for a year and a half. But you know, you're you're right, again, it's, it's, there are more jobs than there are people, right. And so, there, we just haven't put people in a position to be able to, you know, change career paths at the right time and the right angle, right. I don't think enough employers let people go and flourish when they need to, like some of the I know, a lot of people don't like firing and letting people go, but it's about being a very savant leader. And, you know, really being empathetic and understanding where people are in their career and where they could go are foreseeing that, you know, maybe this particular industry or this nice industry is, you know, going to be super tough, we're going to be oversaturated, right. And so, think all the way from the education system to, you know, recruiting and beyond. And, you know, how we, you know, are empathetic in terms of outplacement, like, we need to help people get and figure out early, you know, if they're in the right position to do the right roles, and then, you know, kind of be set on that proper trajectory. So I could go on to more detail, but that's sort of like the broad scope.

Leighann Lovely 21:59

Right. So let's shift gears here for a second. Like we mentioned, you've been, you've been a founder, a co founder of multiple businesses, like you mentioned, through that process, you've obviously learned, you know, a ton, I'm gonna guess, you know, from the first business that you, you know, helped found or founded. Something like that. I'm gonna guess that you have learned a great deal. And obviously, the economy has changed so much over I mean, going through 2000, you know, AIDS going through the pandemic, what, what has been, other than the demand for a change in candidate experience? What has been the the glaring, you know, like, red light blinking in your face of like, this really needs to change?

Adam Gellert 23:02

Yeah, definitely, we've been sort of like rocked the last several years. Right. So I mean, I started my company after recruiting for another company, in the 2008 financial crisis, right. And so, there's a lot that I've kind of, like learned by essentially just being sort of like crazy, determined. And, you know, following my passion and skill combination, it can't just be passionate. It can't just be skill, right? Because you are going to face adversity. And you need to figure out how to continue on, I think, guilt, that's sort of important when people are thinking about those career choices over the last few years. I think the more obvious ones are remote work, flexible work schedules, and like getting more away from the hustle culture. Right. But I think, what's happened, and I think what's happened, that's good. And it kind of ties into my comment about being able to get employed and into a place where you feel fulfilled at the end of the day. And I think that it's less obvious, maybe becoming more obvious, is the idea that we're going to move into this multi career system. have been talking about this for a few years, but I think it's becoming more and more obvious that you know, what we consider maybe side hustles people that have multiple income streams, is kind of the future, right? So, you know, the obvious scenario is Uber, an Uber driver, and working at a tech company, right. But I, you know, that makes people think, oh, this person must work 60 hours a week or 80 hours a week, right? But what I really see is like with the introduction of AI, you can actually be a lot more productive and efficient in your job and You know, if you become sort of, you know, irreplaceable in the fact that you're like the master of your, your job or your function and solving that business problem of where you're working, that you will be able, you'll be able to be a lot more efficient. And you know, two days, three days a week, right, which is why we're seeing these things. And if you want to increase your, you know, ability to make money, it could be doing Uber driving, you'd still stick to that, like 40 hours a week, or whatever it is, or content creation, or, you know, helping at a, you know, food bank or, you know, hospital or, you know, hospice care, whatever it is, right. There's just so many opportunities, I think, to work, and I don't think income is going to come from one place, I think that'll be very unlikely to happen.

Leighann Lovely 25:57

And do you think that's, that's a cultural shift? Or do you think it's a generational thing?

Adam Gellert 26:08

I think it's a bit of both. I also think it's a fact of survival, survival, it's like things just cost more, you know, when we used to, so the most obvious example that I think is that, you know, the generation before you said, generational, so the generation before us, you know, was in their job for life, right, and they don't understand why you would go follow your passion or follow your, you know, a different career path, right. And we lived in this sort of, like, unknown is that a good play? Is that not a good play, and, right now, there are no 40 year jobs left, or will be in the future, it's unlikely, because things change so fast that, you know, even founders, for example, right, you might be a good founder to take it from concept and assumption and Bootstrap to a million dollars, but you're not the right person, take it from a million to 10 million, because you don't have that experience. And so you have to step away. And so it's not just, you know, the, you know, what we might consider other roles, it's like roles across the board, right? Even athletes, right, you're just at a certain stage, and that's what you're good for that position you play. So you know, from, from this big shift in how we work in work tech, and the whole scale up of AI in our industry, it's just a matter of, you know, how we have to re think and reimagine what work looks like, and how we spend our day, you you

Leighann Lovely 27:41

said something so, so absolutely brilliant, right there. Because it's a concept that is so hard for so many individuals to wrap their head around. And you made reference to, you know, as a founder, as a founder, you may be really good at starting up organizations and taking that from, you know, zero to a million, and you talk to, you know, again, go hire a coach, they'll teach you how to take it from a million beyond Well, that may not be what you're capable of doing. That meant, and you said, as if one of you may have to step away and sell it or handed off, right. And the concept that it's so hard for some of the and I'm not picking on because again, you're not you weren't picking on like the older school, the the older generation, they got a job, they stayed at that job. It was that was what they did. That was that was their mentality. And the concept that they struggle with is you can have a great person, but if that great person doesn't have the right seat on the bus, it no matter what you try to tell them to do, it's not going to work, right? It just they're not, they're not going to be able to wrap their head around, like how do I do this? Because their mindset, their passion, their, you know, knowledge, their technical ability falls within a different realm. And that is, I think, why we, as a society now see so many people doing the, okay, I'm going to stay here for five years. You see this in the hospitality industry. And I did not know this until I actually had interviewed somebody who who was from the hospitality industry. They see a lot of turnover they see it especially in the higher up because they come in, they create their concept of here's what's really going to make this hotel, this brand of the hotel, great. They go in, they implement all of their changes. They're there for you know, a finite period of time they move on, and they go to the next one and they implement what works or what they have historically seen work. And there's plenty of industries out there that do that. And that's why we see people come and go in industries, which didn't happen in the past. But that's the way the world works now versus 4060 years ago, where things weren't changing, like you mentioned, technology is changing so much, that in order for companies to keep up and I know I talk with my hands This is Audio Only, anyways. Technology is changing so much that accompany has to have the person that's leading it understand where that technology is. And sometimes that means that changing that person every five years, who is aware of what that technology, what that economical environment looks like, in order for that company to continue to thrive and make that company continue to grow and work. And I think that it's necessary in our environment where, like I said, 4060 years ago, it wasn't, because while we still had changes happening, technology was not nearly as an again, manufacturing, I come from much more of a manufacturing, staffing. You know, we still to this day, talk about while manufacturing is so far behind. Even today, even on the practices that they do, you know, in a lot of the things, you know, you still walk in and they're still in this is just, you know, example, while they're still taking all hand notes, they're still you know, what, they're machines, everything is still on paper, why do you have these big stacks of paper that explain the job that you're working on? Why don't you have iPads or, or something that connects to your, you know, your systems, your ERP systems? It's like, how are you not to that point yet? But you know, and then you ask the leaders, and they're like, Well wouldn't work for us? And it's like, well, have you tried? Have you looked into the systems, or just, it would not work here, and then you you talk to the person and they're like, Well, I've been at this company for 45 years, it wouldn't work here. We'll get some fresh blood in here. And I guarantee somebody who is, you know, young, hungry to make their mark would figure out a way to make it work.

Adam Gellert 32:41

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, to that point, like, also don't feel like it's, you know, a lot of people's faults, like things just didn't change fast, right? Previously, so they didn't have to change and people hate, you know, standing up in front of a crowd, but they all say change, too, right? So, you know, if there's something that they believe to be working, they won't change or don't see, right. So it's like, it's not even like individuals, like there are so many examples of this happening with like, you know, some of the smartest people in the world, right, so like, you know, Blockbuster, like, they just didn't see that change, they didn't do it. You know, that wasn't the person operating the manufacturer to build the DVDs or, you know, do the graphic design, it's, it's really hard to understand what is happening in the future. But I think there are two things that the next generation really needs to focus on its financial independence and financial, like education and understanding. And, you know, what, where careers are headed and where careers are going and how you can kind of make an impact because it was okay to work, you know, a job for so many years before, because there were only so many jobs rolling so many options, you couldn't go, you know, work remotely from your house in Canada, and then do a job in the states you couldn't, there weren't as many coffee shops, there was like five, right? So you couldn't go learn from a different set of leaders or a different set of peoples or get benefits from a company like Starbucks, there just weren't those choices. And because choices and options, there's, you know, all pretty well endless at this point. Which, you know, I think the most important thing for coaches to do is to help people kind of help identify, you know, where could you, you know, excel in another area, instead of being sort of like one of many, you're kind of like a master of one and figuring out how you go through that. Those those kinds of paths to get there. So, yeah, it's just it's a it's I think it's just that the fluctuation and the speed at which things change. Right, like so. Yeah, just trying to come up with a new kid. Like, for example, maybe I'll come back to it but

Leighann Lovely 34:58

ya know, I mean, that was write that. And I completely agree, but here, I'm gonna throw this, I'm gonna throw you for a loop now on something because as we talk about the younger generation and educating themselves, and that kind of thing I want to ask you, you know, again, this is going to kind of throw you for a loop on everything now, because we've now we've now learned, you know, that, you know, the experience, the, the understanding of that, within going into these jobs, we've, we've started to understand more and more that the cultural fit within organizations as well the important and that person, you know, we, right, we've started to get that culture, and a person fitting into their environment, and it can look a wild, lot wildly different. And you when you said education, and educating themselves, it sparked something in me, do you? Maybe you know, what I'm gonna ask, do you think that companies are finally starting to understand that having a degree specific and this excludes some industries, obviously, you cannot be a doctor without a going to medical school, you can't be an accountant, or a CPA, if you don't go and get your CPE can't be a lawyer, blah, blah, you get it? But do you think that more industries have come to understand that experience, hands on experience is equivalent to educational experience, and that culture fit is more important than experience because you can train for skills?

Adam Gellert 36:38

100% 100% 100% 100% it's, you know, attitude over skills, its experiences, you know, it takes 10,000 plus hours to be any good and even close to good at something. So, you know, I tell young people, they're like, oh, what should I do? Where should I start, just try doing things and do so many things that, you know, assault, go solve problems and figure it out and feel like, what, what are you like, really the best app because people are coming to you, if you're the best at something, and you're experienced at it. I mean, even doctors, you know, once they get the job, and they've hit a certain level of experience, they don't go back to them and say, hey, you know, you graduated top of your class, they go no, like, I want to work with the surgeon that did 1000 heart surgeries, not this one surgeon that, you know, went to Harvard. Right. So it doesn't even, you know, yeah, school is required for obviously, certain jobs, but, you know, most of them are required and talking about the speed at which things move. I mean, there's so many ways to get educated for free, right now, if you have access to a laptop, and, you know, internet, which a lot of people also don't have, which, you know, I really believe in, in charities that, you know, help people get laptops and access to internet, because that's, that's where education, you know, it's access, right. And for diversity, and, you know, pay parity, it's like getting that access, right. So, but, but, you know, going off a little bit, but I think that, you know, the most important thing is to just really, like educate yourself on what you like, and keep trying new things, right. So

Leighann Lovely 38:28

well, in today's world, you can go into coffee shops, and have free internet. Excuse me, you can go into, you know, here in I know, in, you know, in most in most of the states, I'm not 100% sure about Canada, but any public library has computers that you can now go in and utilize their computers to free at free and have internet access. So I mean, there is an any Workforce Development Company, you know, place so there are, you know, kiosks that you can go into a workforce development, and those are, you know, government run here in the United States where you can ask for assistance to get free internet access, you just have to want to do it and have the time. So they don't I mean, it's, it's really are you willing to put in the time, so there is a million free different places that you can go to get access? And then I mean, there is LinkedIn offers, you know, free webinars and courses and I mean, there is 1,000,001 different ways that you can now educate yourself

Adam Gellert 39:47

for free Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the funny things is like, you know, in job description, they say, Hey, this is this is required. I mean, there are these these these things that are required that anyone can get caught. have access to and actually really get really, really good at. You know, one example is going in a sales role as example HubSpot is, you know, a customer relationship management platform, it's probably the one of the most popular in the world other than Salesforce. And so, you know, it's funny to me, how many times founders or hiring managers asked me hey, like, we won't talk to somebody, unless they have experience with HubSpot. I mean, you give somebody a crash course. And then in a day and an hour and have them be amazing. And the candidates also are, you know, if you are seeing these jobs, and you're saying, Oh, I don't have experience with that, I mean, you could pretty much get experience with anything by just going and asking going to a company and saying, Hey, like, I'd really like to learn about this. HubSpot has, you know, the biggest amount of videos and blogs on how to use their product, if you reached out to them and said, Hey, I want to get a job, you know, we're using your product is required. Can you help me with this? I'm sure they would say yes. Right. So it's just about creating those, and pushing those opportunities for what you want. So if you, you know, are in a role right now, where you're feeling stuck, because you don't have experience with something else that's required. You know, as long as it's not a degree, and it doesn't cost you money, and there are certain barriers to entry. Of course, like, there are certain, you know, I don't want to say that there are limitations at all. But, you know, for the most part, you know, with those things, you could get educated on that. Right,

Leighann Lovely 41:27

right. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's, there's so much available to, to individuals out there now. And I, I'm gonna go back to a point that you made earlier that, that there are more jobs than there are people, which means that anybody who is not working right now, and I mean, they shouldn't be, but the system that we have in place is broken. And it makes it hard for people to get hired. So individuals, like you, who are attempting to create systems, you know, are the ones who are really, you know, the, the pioneers in this in this industry, right, trying to find a way to make the candidate experience positive, and make the make it easier for the company to, you know, allow the proper resumes to come across their desk, you know, to just view the ones that are right for their role. I mean, so let me ask you this, when you started in this industry, did you think that you were going to end up two decades in?

Adam Gellert 43:02

No, definitely not. I didn't even know where recruiting was. Right. So someone, you know, offered me a job. And I was like, What the heck is recruiting? And they said, you know, you, you get paid to, you know, match a person with a company, right? I was like, Oh, this sounds interesting. Do you think I'll be good at it? And they said, Yeah, so somebody had to give me that opportunity. Right. They knew they'd worked with me previously. So they knew that I had a good attitude. Good. Great. I showed up. I care, right. So like, what I typically look for is trust, attitude, passion. I think that's kind of like the core of any role doesn't matter what it is where it is, you know, or anything, right. And, and so yeah, I mean, just to answer your question, simply, I don't, I didn't know. But I just became obsessed with, you know, solving this problem, and just continuing to do better and continuing to be curious and think about things. And ask questions. And, you know, I don't have all the answers still, right. Like, I still learn from a lot of people like you and other people, right? have, you know, different scenarios that come up? And I think that that's what makes this industry and an industry that you care about? So interesting, right? So, but it could be applied to anything, you know, skilled trades, anything, getting curious, you know, you could you know, you could create a house or you could create a whole residential community. Like, there's just so many different options, right, so

Leighann Lovely 44:35

awesome. So I'm gonna ask you the question of the season. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Adam Gellert 44:47

Yeah, I think like, my mind goes to that one thing that I talked about before, which is the double career system. I think that's where people will say, Okay, this is What changed, most people had one job, one sort of like residents, and now people are going and having multiple, because I just think that that's the way that the world is moving towards. And, you know, and what's required. And I think the flexibility of get a technology is going to be able to do most of what you can do, which should essentially free up a lot of time, you're going to have time to pursue a passion project, a skills project, money making project. So that that's what I think

Leighann Lovely 45:38

that's awesome. And I agree. I think the world was snapped awake. I just I feel like that. As much as we were all divided, and, you know, stuck at home, I feel like everybody woke up and started talking, and started communicating in a way that they never had before. More so than, you know, people were like, well, I'm me, I started a new relationship with my own brother that I had never had before. I started talking to him more. But he lives in Seattle, because all of the sudden I'm like, Oh, my God, I can zoom with him and his family. So I feel like the world was snapped awake. And unfortunately, a lot of things came to light that were not so positive and positive. A lot of mental health issues. And a lot of the world was snapped awake. And people found hobbies, they found passion projects, they found that kind of stuff. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Adam Gellert 46:43

Yeah, thanks so much. I think LinkedIn is is, you know, is the best place if you want to follow me there connect with me there. So it's Adam Geller, and I run Linkous group and the hired hippo. And so that would be like the number one place. I mean, obviously, I'm on all the other socials just about to release a personal site, recruiter adam.com. So those two places would be ideal.

Leighann Lovely 47:12

Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes. So if you want to reach out to Adam, you can check the show notes for his LinkedIn, or for his personal site that will, will listen on there as well. So Adam, thank you so much for joining me and having this conversation. It's been an absolute pleasure, pleasure and some really great insight and great information.

Adam Gellert 47:33

Awesome. Thanks very much for having me. This was a lot of fun. So thank you.

Leighann Lovely 47:38

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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Contact Adam -

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamgellert/

Websites –

Recruiteradam.com

hiredhippo.ai

linkushr.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

Adam Gellert 03:36

Thank you very much for having me. Appreciate being here.

Leighann Lovely 03:40

Yeah. So why don't you start off and, you know, tell everybody a little bit, you know, a little background about who you are and what you do.

Adam Gellert 03:48

Leighann Lovely 05:20

Adam Gellert 05:53

Oh, yeah. I like pain. I like pain.

Leighann Lovely 05:58

Right? That's that? Yep. Absolutely.

Adam Gellert 06:01

Leighann Lovely 07:16

Adam Gellert 07:37

Leighann Lovely 11:09

right? So do the the, do the candidates come to you? Or are you out there sourcing them? And then introducing them to your app?

Adam Gellert 11:21

Leighann Lovely 12:50

Adam Gellert 15:22

Leighann Lovely 18:31

Adam Gellert 19:50

Leighann Lovely 21:59

Adam Gellert 23:02

Leighann Lovely 25:57

And do you think that's, that's a cultural shift? Or do you think it's a generational thing?

Adam Gellert 26:08

Leighann Lovely 27:41

Adam Gellert 32:41

Leighann Lovely 34:58

Adam Gellert 36:38

Leighann Lovely 38:28

Adam Gellert 39:47

Leighann Lovely 41:27

Adam Gellert 43:02

Leighann Lovely 44:35

awesome. So I'm gonna ask you the question of the season. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Adam Gellert 44:47

Leighann Lovely 45:38

Adam Gellert 46:43

Leighann Lovely 47:12

Adam Gellert 47:33

Awesome. Thanks very much for having me. This was a lot of fun. So thank you.

Leighann Lovely 47:38

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, work, talk, company, change, role, candidates, great, industry, years, job, recruiters, hire, recruiting, linkedin, experience, recruitment, founder, passion, world

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This brilliant guest has been recognized as top 30 under 30 and is a linked in top marketing, career management and HR voice with 12,000 plus followers reaching 2 million across 70 countries. Join this amazing conversation about, about a what candidates want and how we can improve candidate experience.

Contact – Matt

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/matt-parkin

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Matt Parkin 02:08

Thanks. Hi, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 02:09

So why don't you start off by telling the audience a little bit about yourself?

Matt Parkin 02:14

Yeah, so I broke into the HR space a few years ago, working in the HR consulting space, got to work on a lot of cool projects related to learning and development and equity, diversity and inclusion, as well as org design. But while I was there, I came across a cool HR technology startup, and thought it'd be cool to break into the HR technology space to continue helping HR leaders fall from the biggest challenges of today, specifically related to talent acquisition and recruiting. I know when I was a job seeker, I got very frustrated by the job application process. And having been a hiring manager and gone through hundreds and hundreds of resumes, I know how painful it is to go through that process. And so coming to work at a startup that is adjusting and changing the talent acquisition process to improve the candidate experience for candidates and make it more efficient for employers. Something that was really exciting for me, over the last couple of years, I've had thought leadership featured in hr.com. And been contributing and advising several different companies as well as industry association. So super passionate about the space and happy to connect today to share some learnings and research findings on how folks can improve the candidate experience and employer branding.

Leighann Lovely 03:32

That's awesome. And I love that you just mentioned that as the hiring manager. And as candidates, you know, we're frustrated with that. So pulling those two things together. You know, really, you're coming from, you know, point of view where you've had hands on experience with that. So you're able to now, you know, be an aside of really being a consultant to say, Okay, well, I experienced this and if I experienced this, that means that hundreds of 1000s of other people have to have experienced this and it is frustrating. It is frustrating, not only for the hiring managers, I'm sure. Well, I know. But also the candidates who, you know, want to find a job hiring managers, companies want to hire the people, right? And how do we easily put those two together in order to just make that process easier so that people aren't being lost? Resumes aren't being lost in the shuffle. And candidates aren't being turned off simply by the process of accompany without having a company spend hundreds of 1000s of dollars to overall you know overhaul their systems right so But it needs to be done. But how do you do it in a reasonably in a cost effective manner to you know, to improve these, you know, processes. So you you've been at, you know, helping an organization find it's called find work for what what about a year and a half, which is an awesome start up web based app that allows for easy matching of skill based, my understanding is that you're not showing hiring managers resumes, which I feel are kind of an antiquated way to match skills, let's let's talk about how that app actually works.

Matt Parkin 05:49

Yeah, so we find that typically, job seekers are used to going and going on to online job boards, and essentially spraying and praying right sending out hundreds of applications. And a lot of them are hearing back from employers on the employer side of things having to go and post a job and wait for people to apply go through hundreds, often unqualified resumes. And then when you finally go through all of them and reach out to qualified candidates, you've likely already missed them. And they're already on to new opportunities. And so you get caught in that middle where job seekers are complaining about not being able to find jobs. And then employers also can't find the talent. And so it's a bit of a disconnect there. And to your point about the resume piece, a lot of a lot of biases are presented in terms of resume writing and reviewing, right, you have folks who are able to afford talk to your resume writers, you have people that maybe don't have great written skills, or English skills, and so maybe their resume isn't written or conveying their skills in the best possible way. And then on the employer side of things, it's pretty time consuming when you open up a resume document, because a lot of times, they're not all formatted in the same way, though, it takes a couple seconds to actually get your bearings in the document and figure out, okay, where do I need to look to find the skills that I'm looking for. And that's at the end of the day, that's what you're looking for, you're looking for someone that has the skills you need to succeed in the role. And so what we did with the fine work platform is that we moved away from resumes to focus on skill based hiring, candidates can add the skills to their profile, and employers can quickly filter for profiles with those skills. And so it's a much easier way to skim profiles without having to read through resumes, of people saying, Hey, I'm a great communicator or work well in a team. It's like, okay, great, show me how you've done that. And so by being able to condense that screening process and that application process, we find that you're able to more efficiently create that human connection, because it's a more enjoyable process for the job seeker and the employer.

Leighann Lovely 07:53

That's amazing. Well, and here's so well, I guess before I asked that question, what what type of employment what type of candidates are? Or is this you know, app or this web based system geared towards?

Matt Parkin 08:12

So it's mainly been geared towards folks that are looking for hourly type of roles, so restaurants, retail stores, warehouses, event venues, hospitality companies, anyone that are looking for hourly employees, we've seen a lot of great success with because I think skill based hiring still has a little bit of a ways to go with more tenured complex roles. And you know, the engineering phase, for example, right, where you might actually need to know a little bit more than just someone's previous job title to see what they've been working on. Whereas for a lot of hourly roles, some employers are just struggling with people that are showing up, right to being able to find people that will actually show up and that have done the job before somewhere else or have transferable skills flip easier for those levels of roles for employers to be able to gauge the transferable skills.

Leighann Lovely 09:01

So my guess is that the majority of these individuals are not brilliant writer. And again, please don't take this as I'm not picking on anybody. But these, these individuals are not designed or they're, they're not brilliant resume writers. Most people are not brilliant resume writers, you typically do it every week. I'm hoping like every couple of years or every 10 Depending on how many you know, depending on how often you look for job and hopefully it's not extremely often you're not looking for a job so often, we hope, but you're not writing a resume constantly, which means that majority of these people don't write resumes on a regular basis. Which means that let's let's take out the stress of oh my gosh, I have to write this resume and Even me being a seasoned HR professional when I sit down and I have to update my resume, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is this is tedious. This is how do I describe what I was doing? And so eliminating that, I would assume is taking out so much of the stress from both sides. I mean, it just, it just makes so much sense. So let's talk about candidate experience. I mean, I can understand from the manager's point of view, and again, there's, before I get into that, I still run across hiring managers who insist on seeing a resume. And because they want to see gaps, they want to see if this individual has gaps in their employment, which I think in today's age, is becoming a little unfair because of the whole COVID. But let's talk about candidate experience. How is this improving? And how has it improved time to hire the way that candidates are being found and seen?

Matt Parkin 11:12

Yeah, so I've seen employers doing entire hiring cycles in three to four days, I've seen employers that are getting responses from candidates on the platform, within minutes. I actually use the platform once on behalf of one of our clients. And I set up a campaign I went away and had breakfast and came back and already had qualified candidates texted them to set up interviews that afternoon, and they were hired at the end of the week. And so think from a speed perspective, that's something that can really help reduce the ghosting in the candidate experience. And platform aside, when you're building out your talent acquisition process, I really encourage everyone to go and apply to your own job postings, as well as those of your competitors. Right, put yourself in the shoes of job seekers, and see how many steps they're going through. Right? Are there any questions that you're asking that, you know, maybe are more nice to haves, rather than need to knows that you can potentially save for the interview process? Right? I was applying to one job. And one of the checkboxes was can you confirm you're able to do the requirements of this job? Who's gonna say no, right? Nobody's gonna say no. And so that screening question adds no value for a hiring manager, because you can't filter anyone with the hat, because no one's gonna say no. And on the candidate side of things, that seems like a very frustrating question for them to spend the time reading and agreeing to. And so it's those kinds of things that you can pick up when you go through your own candidate experience. And I went through a random cashier job on a job posting platform one day, and I applied to the role. And I got a message of, you know, saying, Hey, thanks for your application. And they had me do a skill assessment, which I thought was kind of cool, because it was for a customer service facing role. And it gave me as a candidate the opportunity to try and showcase some of my knowledge and skills to get ahead of the competition. Right. And that's something that, you know, just answering some screening questions and sending in a resume doesn't always allow your skills to shine. So I was really impressed by that, by that skill base assessment. Now, after I completed that, I got an invitation to make an account in the employers applicant tracking system to submit my application. And I was confused, because I had already hit the Apply button on the job board, I had already completed the skills assessment. And now I needed to come and create another account and submit my application. And so I didn't do that, because I thought that was irritating. And I proceeded to get daily emails for the next three days, telling me how great this employer was to work for and reminding me to finish my application. I thought in that moment, you see a lot of drop off during the application process. If that employer instead of sending those reminder emails, if they had sent one email saying, Hey, we noticed you didn't finish your application. We must have dropped the ball on our candidate experience, do you mind sharing some feedback for us on where we went wrong and how we can improve? I've never seen an employer do that. I think as a candidate that would a either be like, Wow, I want to work for this person. They're very receptive to feedback. And I would have to go and finish my application. Or I would provide some candid feedback and they'd be able to to improve their process. I find that a lot of employers ask their current employees and successful hires for feedback. Oh, no, I was the hiring process. And a lot of times current employees aren't going to give that same level of color that you would get from candidates, right. So that's just something to think about in terms of an exercise for you to do with your team would be to go through and apply to your own jobs and those of your competitors to see if there's any ways to improve the efficiency and experience of the process.

Leighann Lovely 14:58

I'm having flashbacks. I recently as a, as a recent small business owner, I recently thought I'm gonna go and get a part time job, you know, startup? Oh, my God, am I gonna make it? And so I just recently had this experience and you're bringing, you know, horror flashbacks because you're so right. Like, there were so many times where I'm like I, you know, I just want to apply to this job. And it was one step after another after another after another for a very simple job like just an admin position where I'm like, you know, you're having me send my resume, like my resume is, I'm a tenured, you know, customer, I've got so much customer service, I've been in sales I've been in HR I've been in, if you're going to have me send my resume, within two seconds, you're going to see that I'm qualified for well, way overqualified to be a customer service person. But now you're going to have me fill out this application, you're going to have me answer 20 questions, you're going to have me do a skill assessment, then you're going to, and it was like, I'm not doing this, I'm this is like a half an hour process. Now think about that, in terms of somebody who's looking for a job who doesn't have a job, they do that 10 times 15 times a day, that is a full time job. full time job, and half the time 90% of the time, they never get a response ever. Nothing. Crickets, why would I choose? As a candidate? I'm thinking, why am I going out and filling out this crap? Online? repeatedly to get no response? No, buddy, you know, calling me back to positions that for me, I obviously I was in over that I feel that I'm qualified for I have no idea why they're passing on me. No response as to. And if I do get a response to say, no, it's sorry, we've decided to move forward with somebody else. But I'm getting no response as to why I'm not qualified, or why they passed on me. I mean, think about if you're a company, and your manager keeps coming to you and saying, You're not doing very good, you're not doing very good, you're not doing very good, you're not doing good. But they never tell you why you're not doing very good. You can't fix it, you can't make it better. Which means that you're stuck in that cycle of like, well, I'm just going to keep doing the same thing I've done over and over every single I mean, that's the definition of insanity. Literally, the definition of insanity, I'm gonna continue to apply to these jobs, get no response. And every day, I'm going to do it over and over and over and over again. So basically, these poor candidates are out there, going insane, looking for jobs and getting no response, which is the rise of recruiters. However, even recruiters have gotten a bad rap of never getting back to their candidates, because there's so many candidates, that they fall through the cracks. So having something that they could literally go on, put their skills be matched up, be easily searchable. And then once they have a job, go on there and say, yep, I've got a job. No longer search me and it's only one platform that they have to manage. I mean, I mean, I'm speechless at that point, I kind of went off on a little bit of a tangent, but if I, you know, if I could wave my magic wand, it would be, you know, every time you and again, I'm not saying you know, some of these jobs, you have 400 applicants. So it wouldn't be feasible for a company to go in and say, here's why I'm passing on you for every one of those candidates, so I get it. But we do need to have something like this and something like this for every industry would be absolutely, like amazing.

Matt Parkin 19:45

Yeah, and I think the big the big thing to keep in mind with that ghosting piece is like you said it's a time consuming process to give feedback to candidates. But what you can do instead of just sending a message saying thanks for Applying, we'll be in touch, right being very explicit about the next steps in the process to help reduce stress and set expectations with the job seekers. This is the second most requested thing that we found in our research when we were asking candidates, how employers can improve their candidate experience. And that was an automated receipt with explicit next steps. So if you don't, if you apply to a job on a Monday, you know, getting an automated or automated reply, saying, hey, we'll be reviewing applications on Wednesday and Thursday, interview invites will go out on Friday, first round will be Monday, next week, second round Wednesday, next week, if you don't hear from us, by the end of this week, you can assume that we've gone a different direction really appreciate your application that can be automated with your applicant tracking system, right? It takes very little effort to do and give so much power to the job seeker so that they're not constantly refreshing their email inbox, sending follow up messages to recruiters wondering what's happening, right. And that allows for teams that are busy and maybe don't have the time to review the applications right away to level set up front and say, hey, you know, we're getting a lot of applications, it's gonna take a few days for us to go over things. Don't be surprised you don't hear from us right away. I level setting on those expectations is so key and leaving with transparency is the way that you can build that relationship, even if there isn't a good fit at the end of the process.

Leighann Lovely 21:21

Right. Wow, that right? Because all all I think all people want to know is what is the next step. And for me, I I stopped applying to accept applying to positions unless they were the quick apply, which on LinkedIn, you have quick apply positions where you literally just get apply. And you because it was too because I'm lazy. And I didn't really need. You know, again, I didn't really need the job. I had the luxury of being like, Oh, I'm just gonna apply to the quick apply one, and I'm just not everybody has that luxury, you know, people. But yes, if I would have gotten responses of work, you're going to hear from us on this day, if we are interested in moving forward, then I would have been marked my calendar. If I don't hear from them. I can check this one off my spreadsheet of I applied to this and and I have talked to people and they're like, oh, I have I have three spreadsheets, of the different stages of where I am in the process of the positions that I have applied for. And I'm like, wait, spreadsheets, what are you talking about? They're like, it's the only way that I can keep track of all of the jobs that I've applied for. And the ones I've gotten feedback for. We get all of this, you know, feedback, we get this bad rap the world gets this bad rap of the world candidates get this bad rap of ghosting recruiters and companies. What we don't understand is that candidates get ghosted tenfold every day. So why are we bashing them? They're they're ghosted 100 and a million times more every day. It's just that they're not ghosted by a specific person. They're ghosted by the company, just simply not responding to them in any way to let them know that they are not moving forward. Or they filled the position or whatever it might be. And then we turn around and we're like, oh, how dare they go stressed? Well, that person's been, you know, through the wringer on trying to find a job, and you're gonna sit there and bash them. Not that I'm condoning it. I'm not saying that it's okay. You know, in any means, and it's even worse, if they're, you know, hey, out, you've been offered the job, and then you don't show up. That's totally not not. That's another level of not cool. But anyways, I digress. So let's, you know, let's talk about, you know, what, what other studies, what was the number one, you said number two, what was the number one way or feedback that you got that we could improve on candidate experience?

Matt Parkin 24:27

So this is a hotly debated topic, but including wages in compensation in the job posting was the top request from candidates. And we're seeing some states in the US start to mandate this. And I'm hoping that folks who haven't been mandated yet will hop on board and continue doing it because it just saves so much time for both parties, right? It's not a big secrecy. You have a budget for your business that makes sense financially with your money. margins for how much money you want to allocate to the roll. There's always room for negotiation later in the process, but setting an expectation so that candidates know, hey, that's actually under my, what I'm looking for, I'm not even gonna bother applying, right, when we talked about having hundreds and 1000s of applicants to go through, including that compensation data is likely to reduce those applicants that are not going to be a fit for that comp range anyways. And so you're gonna save more time, on your end reviewing applicants, you're going to save time of your hiring managers and interviewers getting to, you know, a third or fourth round interview, and realizing that you're $30,000 apart in terms of expected compensation, and you're just going to create a more memorable experience. Because if you're leading with transparency, with your compensation, that says a lot about your culture. And that can help with retention as well. Because if you're being transparent about wages, you're probably also being transparent with your employer branding, with the rest of your communications to employees. And that's probably a place where people are going to want to work. So that was the top requested change to the candidate experience that we found in our study.

Leighann Lovely 26:07

And, and I understand. So as everybody knows, is that the the world and I'm not, I'm just playing devil's advocate here for a second I, I agree in in one way, I disagree in another way. And here's why. Here's my argument towards this. The world is in a state of flux, there are hundreds of 1000s of people working at companies that have been there for, you know, 10 plus years, whatever that that number might be. And here's, here's the the thing that some employers are struggling with, they have employees at their company that are working in X job, and that employee is making say, we're just going to use a sample number, let's say this employee, and this is going to be a low number, let's say, employee a is making $20 an hour, then we go through this massive and this, employee a is making 20. And he's been at the company 10 years, and he's happy $20 is he's been happy, he's not disgruntled with that, blah, blah, blah. But now we have a younger, we have a new generation of people coming in, we have a world that's been flipped on its head. And that $20 is now $25. And in order to get somebody into that same job, you have to pay $25. Now, I'm not saying this is right. Don't get me wrong, okay. I'm not saying it's right. But if company goes in then says, Here's my job a, and we are starting people at 25. What is employee? A gonna say when he sees the job posting for his job starting at $25 an hour. And he's never been unhappy at the 20 at the 20, but now people are starting with less experience than him at 25. Now, that company, they're not doing anything wrong. They're trying to bring in new people. If they were to have to shift every single person at their company and do a wage adjustment, that they may go under, they may not be able to afford that. But in order to bring in new people, they may have to pay that or go under. Does that make sense?

Matt Parkin 28:57

Yeah, you bring up a good point. And I think that's where the piece about aligning wages with expectations when you're screening candidates is really important. I've talked with some employers that, you know, for example, someone's paying $19 An hour mandating three years of experience, right, and then you have someone down the street who's paying $20 an hour for one year of experience, right. And that gap in the experience that they're looking for is why that one employer paying the lower wage cannot find the candidates that they're looking for. So when you do get into situations where you maybe don't have the financial resources to pay competitively, that's when you kind of need to adjust your expectations and either raise the wage or reduce the expectations in terms of skills that you're looking for and be more willing to train.

Leighann Lovely 29:46

Right. And I completely agree. Unfortunately, it's we just what happened in the world happened so fast that these companies didn't have a chance to You like it? Because the normal progression is that over time, people make more money. You have, you know, generations come in, and they're like, Well, I demand, you know, 22 To start, and you're like, okay, because all my employees now are at 22. Whereas, you know, three years ago, they were at 20, or whatever they might 19. We just had so much happen in such a short period of time, that, like we had, we had 10 years of change happen in three years, probably more like 15 years, change happened in three years. And so all of the sudden for these companies to be like, yeah, here's, here's all my wage information, and still try to bring in people who are now demanding $3 More than they were three years ago, which is insane. But it's the reality we live in. So again, I'm not saying this is right. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it is the reality that we live in, like we saw wages increase in some jobs, $4 an hour to get people in the door. An increase in in jobs that I have never seen in my life, where all of a sudden accompanies like, yeah, the only way we can get them in the door is like paying them $3 More an hour. And I'm like, What's that? You're going like, that takes years. Normally, you know, a company that was paying this much all of a sudden is going to pay three, like, Yep, the only way. And you have when other employees find out, they're like, how did this person started more than I make? And you're like, I don't know, well, I'm you know, and obviously, when that stuff comes out, you've got disgruntled employees, which is not good for a business to begin with, and yada, yada, yada. And I've, I've worked at a company early on in my career that went through a complete overhaul in their, in their wages. So they, they were in that situation where they had people who had 10 years of experience making less than people with five years of experience. So what they did was actually did a complete wage adjustment, some people were increased, some people were, well, no, nobody was decreased. But they did a complete wage adjustment based on everybody's tenured, you know, experience. And they they balanced everybody out to make sure that when they were hiring in, they were hiring at the right wages, that everybody was being treated properly. But right now, that's, the companies are going to have to eventually catch up to that, and then they will be able to be, you know, transparent with their wages, but it's just a weird world.

Matt Parkin 32:57

Ya know, that's why managing that compensation and benchmarking is so important. I came across a company barley.io, they're doing some cool work in the compensation management space to help organizations be equitable, and look at all those pay bands, and they're doing restructuring. So the big, cool resource to check out for folks that are interested?

Leighann Lovely 33:16

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And once you know, once a company gets there, I'm sure that they would be a lot more open to saying yeah, here's the here's the pay structure, who does it right is union companies. I mean, they they negotiate this is their, this is their rates, like, there is no negotiation either to take it or leave it, though, you know, union, you sign a union contract. That is the way that's the way it is it's, you pay your union dues, you get paid this much after you've been at the company, this long, you get this much of an increase, yada, yada, yada. Anyways, I digress. So, you know, what, where's the future lie with? Where do you see, you know, things going? I mean, do you do you see that things, you think that things are going to continue to to get better?

Matt Parkin 34:12

I think that companies that are attracting talent, are going to see a heavier emphasis placed on other things they may not have previously considered. So when we're talking to job seekers about why why they look for jobs and which they choose over another scheduling flexibility and growth opportunities emerged alongside compensation as the top three things that job seekers are looking for. And so I think from an employer branding perspective, and not just employees, resharing company blogs on LinkedIn, people that are actively building a presence and building trust in the community with potential customers and potential job seekers using LinkedIn and other tools as a channel for that. You're going to be able to talk identically share stories related to those perks of scheduling flexibility, and learning and growth opportunities. So that even if you do get in a situation where compensation is misaligned, there's a lever that you can pull, right because some job seekers might be willing to take, you know that $2 per hour pay cut to then have first dibs on shifts, or to get a fast track promotion to management, or, you know, I've seen restaurants that have their employees create tick tock videos, right, and they, they get to have that marketing outlet in a role that might not typically be a marketing role. So thinking through creatively how you can engage your employees and tap into skill sets that might be outside of their job description, is something that I think will really help companies get ahead as we move forward, especially in this competitive market for talent, and will really allow employee employers, employees and job seekers to connect authentically because a lot of job posts, a lot of job roles are not even posted. But a lot of jobs are filled through networking and personal connections. So the more that employers can empower their employees to be brand champions, and create that good candidate experience and employer brand, the more you're going to attract people to your company, both as job seekers and potential customers, right, if someone has a good experience going through your hiring process, I still tell people I interviewed at Capital One A couple years ago, and I never went to work for them. But anyone who asked me about the company, I always raved about their candidate experience, because it was such a great experience. And that that will resonate with job seekers and keep you having lifelong champions to bring in potential customers, partners, job seekers in the future. And so that's just something to really consider and think through that. Just because you're not hiring someone in that moment doesn't mean you're not hiring someone, you know, down the road, or doesn't mean that they're not going to tell their uncle and their brother and their sister and their neighbor that you and you know, maybe they become lifelong customers. So that's some food for thought,

Leighann Lovely 36:57

well, and you just hit a chord with me, like a massive, and I'm going to try to rein my, my myself in here, because, you know, as a sales professional, I constantly am thinking of, you know, all of the different ways that an organization, you know, people think sales is the person that goes out and sells their product. And that's just not the case. Every single person at an organization has whether or not they like it, whether or not they know it has the potential to sell something, and is on a regular basis, whether that be a good candidate experience, a bad candidate experience, or, or something else. And you just you just nailed it, you had a great experience, and you literally have become now a an ambassador for for Capital One, how many people are going to hear that, what you just said, and be like, Oh, okay, maybe that's a great place to work. Because if they set up the expectations, so Well, in the in that, think about how it must be to work for them. So you were sold on the process. And if somebody gets a bad taste in their mouth, from the candidate experience, they'll go out and be like, Oh, don't even bother, don't even bother, you know, applying, you're in here's something else. That what is what is the first thing that a lot of candidates do, when they apply somewhere, they go in they they Google the company? Well, they should anyways, I recommend that, you know, they should Google the company, right then in there, you will see reviews. I mean, now nowadays, you go on, you know any, any online, you know, job seeking thing, and you can see candidate reviews from some people who worked there. And if somebody worked there, and they put, you know, hey, and I was just actually reading on a company yesterday, I won't list the company, but there were reviews, like five of them right at the top find company to work for as long as you have no career aspirations. Another one was, hey, you know, not a bad not a bad organization to work for as long as you have, you know, no desire to ever move up in the organization. It's like, wow, okay, you know, management is is is fine, but at times, you know, has you punch out for lunch and then go back and work. Oh, okay. Wow, this sounds like a place that I really want to work. It's like, if you're not constantly making sure that you're, you're creating, you know, or selling the idea of wanting to work here wanting to and creating a great environment. You are creating an army of people who's going to sink your company. You're never going To be able to hire more people, or you could treat them great. So when they go and review your company, other people are going to read it and go, Oh, this sounds like a really great place to work. Look, they've got 30 reviews of awesome place to work treated me great. You just create an army of people who are selling your company. Every, every person at your company has the ability to sell something, whether it's your product, whether it's your culture, whether it's a great place to work, everybody does. And one bad review, let alone five that I read. And then I stopped reading because I went you know, those have the ability to sink you and you know how much harder it's going to be to recruit. And fill those spots when you have multiple. And again, if you're a college student, not a bad place to work, as long as you have no career aspirations will great, go work there for the summer. But if I'm looking for a career, or a skill, I'm sure as hell not going to go and work at that company. I mean, so as again, as a salesperson, you have to brand yourself, and then hold to it. And then have all your managers hold to it. And have your managers treating your people great, and have your processes down and have your recruiters making sure that they're representing your company properly. You have to treat each person at your organization as a salesperson who has the potential to damage your organization. And that starts with the hiring process. I mean, I, I, again, I'm an HR professional and a salesperson for me, I'm like da, other people are like, Well, what do you mean, I'm a sales? Well, yeah, you represent the company. I remember years ago, when somebody was on Facebook while they were at work, this is when Facebook wasn't that popular at work. Talking on Facebook posting out there, gotta hate my job. This sucks. I hate being here. And I happened to look on Facebook really quick. And I was like, Oh my God, this person's gonna get fired. It didn't occur to them. And I'm like you are on Facebook, at work, talking about how you hate your job. What do you think is going to happen? Like? And it still happens over and over now. It's not very hard to figure out where she works, right? I mean, especially if you're friends with her, and you work with her. This stuff happens every day. And I've gone on and on and on. Any thoughts on that?

Matt Parkin 42:53

Yeah, we, we asked job seekers, why they leave companies and management was the top reason, right job seekers and employees, they're not leaving the name on the wall. They're leaving the people that they're working with. So that's something to keep in mind that there's only so many pizza parties to go around to help with culture and retention. And I'm a firm believer that investing time and energy into a great candidate experience and a great employer brand. It's gonna start that relationship off on the right foot is gonna lead to longer term retention, compared to having a terrible candidate experience and putting in a pool table and buying pizza for everyone wants a month.

Leighann Lovely 43:33

And I've heard reviews to that even mentioned, like buying me pizza, once a month is not going to fix the fact that you know, you're you're paying me shitty, and you tell me I have to stay late, you know, unannounced. No work life balance. That does not fix that one pizza party a month does not fix the every other day a month that I feel, you know, unappreciated, then companies think that they can you know, that food we'll fix all that a pool table or a, you know, couch in the lounge room. And I hate I hate the fact that companies think that they can buy their employees with doughnuts once a month or pizza party once a month or you know, and then treat them crappy the rest of the time. So good, very good. Very good point. So we are coming to time and I would like to ask you the question of the season. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Matt Parkin 44:49

Thank me the way people view their relationship with work has changed a lot. You mentioned earlier people expecting higher wages people are now like Looking for more flexibility in roles? People are, you know, it was never a conversation, hey, I'm looking for a hybrid role that that was that was not a common term before the pandemic, right? So I'm employers that are proactive and thinking through how you can create opportunities for employees that align with what they're looking for. And being 100% transparent and authentic, about where you stand is super important, right? Because if you want employees in office five days a week, that that's not a wrong decision, right. That's the culture. That's something that you believe in, be authentic and transparent with that, if you want people working, fully remote, be upfront about that. It's when you get into these situations where it's a hybrid role. And then you have people that are mandated in the office five days a week, that's where a lot of issues come up in terms of transparency. And so I don't think there's one right or wrong way to do it. I've seen people take very strong opinions on either stance of the matter. But I think being transparent and authentic in terms of your communication is the key thing to to keep in mind to get ahead of that.

Leighann Lovely 46:07

Yeah, no, I that is in a very good answer. I completely agree. Completely. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, Matt, how would they go about doing that?

Matt Parkin 46:18

You can find me on LinkedIn, Matt Parkin, I'm on there every day. So just drop me a note and I'm happy to chat further.

Leighann Lovely 46:24

Awesome. Matt, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.

Matt Parkin 46:31

Yeah, thanks for having me, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 46:35

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

candidate, job, employers, resume, job seekers, company, employees, wages, hiring, experience, skills, apply, application, reviews, compensation, thought, work, hr, employer branding, person

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Michele Price is a brilliant multi-faceted women with a keen ability to understand humans and help them better understand themselves. As a Lifelong entrepreneur with over 35 years of experience in leadership. As a leadership advisor and communication strategist for CEO’s, senior leaders and business owners. She is a master at asking the right question to bring out the right information at the right time to help leaders grow. Join us for a great and insightful conversation.

Contact Michele –

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/micheleprice

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Michele Price 01:50

Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Leighann Lovely 01:52

So why don't you start off by telling my audience and the audience a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Michele Price 02:00

Well, so for label wise, I'm a leadership advisor and a communication strategist. And that all comes from having a 40 year arc in business across multiple roles. So entrepreneurs, CEO, CFO CMO, and as I've sat in each one of those decision making roles, it allowed me to acquire a really deep well of knowledge. Over the years with each business, because I've had six plus businesses over that 40 year art, that's now become a beautiful bevy of wisdom to tap into. And because below was a 70s, when I started, I've seen a lot of change in history, and have a lot of lived experience as a woman in business. And one of the things that happened to me when I was in my 50s was, I said, God, I wish I had known this, this and this in my earlier years. And so as I was contemplating what I wanted to shift into, and out of, you know, I wanted to close down my marketing agency, being a fractional chief marketing officer, because marketing is 24/7. I don't care how you try to play the hours is 24/7. And I didn't want to be doing that kind of lifestyle into my 60s. And so, as I'm contemplating, you know, where do I go with this phase and cycle of my life, knowing that, no matter how old I get, my brain has always been this as even when I was a little girl, it's taken all of the actions over time for me to see origins of where my brain was always thinking in the course of business. And so when I was contemplating what does that change need to look like? I had those kind of conversations with myself. I was like, alright, what would I like to have known that was younger? And how can I help other women, no matter which phase of growth they're in, so that they can achieve what they want to achieve. Without all the resistance that can come along with having either one, their own conditioning, you know, things they've been conditioned by family or society or to the oppressive kind of conditioning that can be placed on women just because of our gender.

Leighann Lovely 04:49

And interesting that well said first of all, because you're you're you're very right when I you know I sit here in my in my 40s and I think Wow, if I would have known or somebody would have, and you can't just simply tell somebody, you can't just simply go and say, Your let me tell you what, but you can you can help coach and consult with somebody and say, let me help guide you through some of this to help them come to an understanding of what, especially with somebody who's so experienced as you and help them see things clearer, especially as a younger entrepreneur, younger, not even entrepreneur, but somebody who's in business who wants to level up. Because had I known what I know, now, in my late 20s. You know, I feel like I could have been so much farther. However, there's also the How did I not gain some of the knowledge? Throughout my, my 30s, you know, because my 30s was a huge, probably the biggest growth period for me. But if I would have had somebody coaching me, like you, maybe that growth period would have been half of what it was. And maybe I would have been able to get where I am now, and half the time, and maybe been able to overcome some of those hurdles, that either I put up on my own of my own. Because of my own conditioning of thinking that I couldn't do it, or because somebody told me in my past, I wasn't capable of doing it. Or, you know, the whole, what does that? What does that I can't think of the phrase right now. Or because just the way that society makes you feel as a the way that even even your job makes you feel of Oh, yeah, I'm not I'm not good enough to do that. But if you have somebody who's been there done that saying, Yes, you are capable of overcoming that hurdle. That would have made all of the difference in being able to make that growth period for me, exponentially shorter.

Michele Price 07:39

And there's something I'd like to add in here that I hear people say that, as listeners are listening to them, I'm going to challenge them to ask a different question. Because usually what they say to us when we say I could have been in such a different place, had I known all these things that come back phrases, yeah, but you wouldn't have learned what you've learned, and then everything would have changed. I'm like, Oh, guys, stop diminishing. It can be Bo. I can still have learned those things. without all the extra challenges. There's an assumption in that statement, that if I didn't go through all the turmoil, I wouldn't have learned the lesson bullshit.

Leighann Lovely 08:28

I agree with that. I I'm gonna use a really bad example. But so on Monday, I broke my finger. Now I was one.

Michele Price 08:40

Yeah, your hand.

Leighann Lovely 08:44

So and Mike, this was a huge learning experience, not for me, because I knew as soon as I did it, I went, Oh my God, how stupid does one person have to be to be rushing, and then close their, their car door on their pinky, to the point where I actually had to open my car door in order to get it out. My daughter was standing there when it happened. So this is not a learning experience. For me. This is a learning experience for my daughter. So I'm dropping her off at school like close my door and my pinkie have to pretend that I'm perfectly perfectly fine because she sees and she hears the noise that comes out of my mouth, which was very muffled. I managed to make it you know, non eventful for all of the other kids around and she says, Mommy, are you okay? Yep, I'm perfectly fine. Go to school. Have a great day. Meanwhile, I jump in my car, my entire hand is shaking. And I'm holding in this you know, what I want to do is scream out. You know, all the words that are colorful is so I get home I should have gone to the hospital. But I don't realize at this point how bad it is because I'm just holding it in. She gets home from school, the learning that I now go into. I says I say to my daughter, Skylar this morning, Mommy was in a huge rush. And I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing. And so what I did was I was holding on to the door and I closed the door, and mommy's finger was in it. Oh, and I said, and I wasn't paying attention. And so my finger got stuck in the door. Oh, I said, so because I wasn't paying attention. I hurt myself. Oh, I said, so, you know, when mommy tells you that you need to pay attention to what you're doing. Yeah. I said, that's why. So, from that, you know, I turned my stupid broken finger from Commodore into a learning lesson, she doesn't need to break her finger to learn. From that experience, we don't all have to go through the pain to learn something. If it's explained to us in a way that we can get something out of it. Not everybody has to, you know, go through the pains if they are willing to receive the information. But again, that that comes back to the mindsets. Are you willing to receive the information? And learn from it? Or are you of the mindset that you have to go through the pain in order to learn from it? Because there are

Michele Price 11:31

times it depends on the cycle of learning, you're in as well? Yes, that's where it's important for whoever is your advisor to pay attention to? Where are they in the learning cycle? And am I trying to make them Quantum Leap too big?

Leighann Lovely 11:46

And I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. But, but you're when you make that statement of Oh, whoa, I had to have lived through that. Not every time, not every time. Not everybody has to break their finger to realize that they shouldn't put their hand in the door when they close it. You know, there are plenty of plenty of examples, plenty of people out there that can walk them through, you know, here's what happens if, but we can we can make it better. Or we can do things different because the outcome could be this versus this and so you perfect timing to have a broken finger to give the exhale a note to my listeners, please make sure you don't close your car door on your pinky finger because it's unpleasant like a mofo. Yeah, so, tell me when you work with somebody? Or actually before I ask that. So do you typically work with individuals? Or do you sometimes? Or do you not sometimes do you engage organizations? How do you how do you engage people and how do you work with them?

Michele Price 13:05

It's both. Okay. I've probably been more word word word. Probably been more. Like that's not the right word. I haven't been as active in going after quote, like, company type engagements. They're showing up though, and and I love how I've taken a little more of No, oh, backseats not a good analogy. I've taken just a little more of a relaxed attitude towards who I want to engage with company wise, because I've watched a lot of my colleagues get really burned out why trying to, quote, sell a company on something and they say they want to make those changes in that and go in there and they fight him tooth and nail. And so I've taken a more relaxed approach to it and paid attention to who we're which kind of goes back to what we talked about the the lesson, curve cycle. Where are they really in their knowingness and their willingness to make the change? What I find is, so for example, everything that leads my actions, my questions, my decisions and my actions comes from my statement of purpose that I want to accomplish this last phase or third phase of life. And that is I want to see 75% underrepresented voices at all, decision making tables everywhere. I don't care if that's local government, national, local government, I don't care if that small business, regional businesses, big business, I don't care where. But the entire community needs to be at the decision making tables, we're already seeing the outcomes of them not being there. So when you think about it from that direction, what I find is, I have chosen to focus on working with individuals who want to be able to lead from that kind of place in energy and want to have that kind of impact in our purposes and values align. And now what I'm finding that even though I have a really heart driven desire to work with women in business, whether they own their own business or their, their business leaders inside of companies, I jokingly said, and this is this is the, this is the funny part. We always say don't, don't give a throw down or a dare to the universe. I jokingly said last summer, How funny would it being if I ended up working with a bunch of male allies? Now, while I've built my business around women in leadership, guess who's starting to hold their hands up? male allies, and some of them have been in government, some have been in business. I'm letting it organically grow, just like a garden, from people who either see from conversations online, and they resonate in something pulls them to reach out and want to work with me, or they hear from somebody that they know, like, and trust. And they're like, you know, I know you've been talking about blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm going to tell you right now, I've been working with this gal for six months, and here's what I've learned about me. You can't do it any better than that, then. So you know, it's not my goal, the B word, word word. And I say that a lot. Because as I've, as I've become more conscious of my ADHD, is that a force in myself, that's my anchor to my brain to go give me the word I need. I've become more conscious of being a good receiver. So often, leaders, some of their biggest lessons come from what I call the Yin side of the lesson. Yes, we need to be decisive. Yes, we need to be good, great decision makers. But how good are we at listening? And how good are we at receiving? We've already seen the toxic outcome of push action, and push leadership that only comes from here's what I think we need to do. Versus All right. You all tell me, what are you experiencing? Knowing that we're all on the same page of what we're trying to accomplish in the business. And then after you heard that information, now you have enough data to add yours in and start problem solving. But if you're solving, if you think you're solving something from your perspective, you're missing 99% of the data that's there to help you.

Leighann Lovely 18:52

Write. Interesting. And, and so I want to go back organically growing your allies. And I'm sorry, I'm thinking so you have more men reaching out to you. And despite the fact that you've, you're vocal about you want to help women, why do you think that is?

Michele Price 19:23

So that's, that's only happened in the past, I'd say three months, and so shorter timespan to give any kind of pattern to it, but I'm what I really think, timing wise. So where we are in the world right now. And the kind of conversations that are even happening on LinkedIn, which, you know, had always been this stuffier social media platform. People are starting to finally recognize those of us like myself who Been talking about individual versus collective energy for years, they're starting to finally understand it, they're starting to finally see the repercussions of what happens when we all take individual actions, and how that contributes to us as a whole. And so because they're seeing that, and they're feeling it in a really visceral way, with the challenges that's happening in business with the challenges that are happening in government, and then what the challenges are happening socially, as well as our climate change, it's literally happening in every phase of life. This is where someone like myself, who's always operated from an indigenous lens, bring some really cool questions and ability to assess things from a really different perspective, and people are noticing.

Leighann Lovely 20:54

So do you think that do you think that, um, that some of these individuals are strategically reaching out to somebody who is an end? Here's historically, I would say that a lot of people reached out to somebody who is like minded. And this is what the problem, you know, where a problem, you know, was, let me go find a coach who is like minded. Okay, well, what is that going to do? They're going to align with you on your decisions, they're going to align with you on the way that you think, how are they going to help you grow? Right? If I want to find a coach, I want to find a coach that aligns with my morals, with my ethics. But I also want to find a coach who's going to help push me to think a different way. Which means if you know, in reality, why don't I go find a coach that is of a different background, or maybe a male coach, maybe even have a different ethnical, or ethnic background. Because then they come from a total different, you know, even upbringing would then allow me to, to be exposed to somebody who could teach could consult and helping me open my mind to different ideas. So I'm going to guess that males are reaching out to you because they see that not only are you brilliant, but you're a woman who may be able to help them understand their female counterparts, better, help them shift their mindset better, and be more open to ideas that they themselves, just simply because of biology, and proven that men and women do not necessarily always think the same. Same as somebody, you know, somebody who is of a different race, bring, and it's proven, bring different ideas, because simply of our upbringing, we think differently. We, we come with different ideas we have, and that's what makes it so beautiful. When we allow the underrepresented at the table, we are able to create new ideas. And so it would make sense that they are reaching out to you because they want to grow. So I applaud them. And if it's not for that, then it would be based solely on your on your credentials, which again, you should be proud either way. Right.

Michele Price 24:13

Thank you. So

Leighann Lovely 24:17

I mean, and good for you for taking on, you know, clients who are not necessarily what you originally thought out for. But you know, well, I'm a salesperson. take on clients.

Michele Price 24:36

Well, yeah, so there's some clients I'm not willing to take on Yep.

Leighann Lovely 24:41

No, and I I totally agree. There are some clients that I'm, you know, that I would not be willing to take on that I'm not willing to take on either. So, so that's, I find that very interesting. I find that wildly interesting because it is It is important that you know you don't that somebody who's looking for somebody like you that they assess how they are choosing that person. And that you're not just simply choosing somebody who is going to give you all of the Yep, I agree with that you're doing that, right. And if it's somebody who already have

Michele Price 25:26

plenty of Yes, men inside their company, they don't need another one. That's why they're in the position, they are correct. And in all fairness, a lot of times their employee, or the people they've put in managing and leading roles aren't to blame, because they haven't rewarded him for the things that allowed them to give them any kind of pushback.

Leighann Lovely 25:48

So let's, let's talk, let's dive a little bit deeper into, you know, how do you help develop these individuals and these organizations? What is the actual work that you do with them? Let's let's dive deeper into that.

Michele Price 26:04

That, that, that can change so much because of the fact that everyone's in a different place. And all right. So here's the difference in how I do that. I know a lot of people who are either doing leadership advisory or they're doing some type of change, management, change training, they just go in with a formula. They teach their formula and they exit. That is not how I I'm much more focused on less assess. Who do you think you are right now? How aligned is that with who you want to be? What are your actual core strengths and weaknesses? So I do a lot of work using archetypes. And so we start diving into that. And because I am a master question asker. And I'm fully in tune with all of my senses. It's why I'm able to be a live lie detection machine. And when people aren't answering with something that's 100%. Yes, I've honed my skill well enough to use questions to help narrow in and elicit down to where the challenge is where the misalignment is. So it's much more intricate. It's not, it's not, you know, we're going to do ABC, and everyone's gonna use this workbook. And you know, then we'll talk about it, you know, that that reminds me of where therapy went wrong, too. Oh, boy, did I put my foot in it? But hey, you know, I'm used to, I'm used to stimulating people to have the hard questions, right. And those are the people who really enjoy working with me, is the fact that I am willing to have the hard conversations with them. But it's not just from a straight confronting position. I also have the energy and the training, to be able to hold the space and use masterful questions to allow them to start seeing things for themselves of themselves in themselves. In that moment, they literally have breakthroughs just from conversations.

Leighann Lovely 28:57

That's amazing. So it really it really is that you you customize. It's customized to each individual. Yeah, you don't have a, you know, like, some of the large, you know, an action coach some of the large, you know, coaching programs out there. There's not a, like, here's a proven program that you work with individuals. It's really a matter of going in and having real authentic conversations and calling people out on their bullshit and saying, Okay, no, you may. And sometimes people don't even realize that they're bullshitting themselves.

Michele Price 29:43

And being able to do it in a way where it's not judgmental or shaming, that's really, really important. People are not gonna open up to the components of where the emotional, the emotional line is in a problem. If you don't have the capacity acity to actually do that, and that's where I see a lot of people, they don't have the capacity to do that type of work. And leaders need someone who have that capacity. Because you can handle things from a surface or an intellectual basis that you're never going to get to the core of the problem if you don't know how to do the emotional work. And there's a difference between someone who's masterful at being able to do each layer of work, whether it's mental, intellectual, spiritual, emotional, and someone who's a therapist, you don't really need a therapist when you're having true mental health issues that are outside of the realm of you doing your inner work. So many times though people weren't word word, they, they give up their responsibility for doing their own inner work. And label it. Well, I just need to go see a therapist. Well, okay, so tell me, how do you actually how do you do your own emotional regulation? What, what are you doing from a spiritual basis, that allows you to really know who you are, right? Because a therapist is going to be able to help you do those things, those that her journey,

Leighann Lovely 31:28

but there's a lot of people that don't. And this is a generational thing, this this truly is a generational thing. Suppress, suppress, suppress, suppress. Now, the generation that's coming up, parents, you know, got smarter, because there wasn't that, you know, suppress emotion suppress emotions. You know, it wasn't in boys don't cry. It kind of generational thing, but, you know, and, but there is this generational thing of you don't experience emotions, it's not okay to cry, you know, suck it up, rub some dirt on it. That was that was, you know, a generation now, we're unlucky. The kids coming up are lucky, you know, my daughter will throw a fit, and I'll say to her, it's okay to, you know, it's okay to be upset. It's not okay to hit throw, you know, or the actions in which she has from the emotion that she's experiencing. So we've we figured out that emotion is good. You know, but now we need to figure out the reaction or the whatever you're doing. We just need to hone in on that. But so generationally, we had a group of people large, you know, especially the baby boomers, and some of the generations off after that was suppressed emotion. Don't show people that you're, you know, don't cry in front of people. It's inappropriate. Why cry? If you're if telling you

Michele Price 33:03

why? Because one of the things I would really like everybody to stop doing is continuing to place a lot of blame on boomers in only because it doesn't serve you it doesn't serve the collective. What's happened is people generationally have been traumatized. And so like we were talking about earlier, where research, you know, so research goes in cycles, like anything else. And so, so this is coming from an indigenous lens. From an indigenous lands, our focus is always about self actualization first, because the self actualized person can contribute to the community. Everybody has a role, and everybody is respected. When when we live in times where people don't have that spiritual thread or component as part of their life, and instead, aspects of spirituality have morphed into religion, which has been weakened, historically, see how it's been used to control people, then you have severed their connection to a huge piece of who they are. And so anytime someone has a severed connection in any area of their life, that's a trauma. And if we haven't rewarded them, or given them the tools to need in order to reconnect and become full again. Then we're part of the problem. And so what I'm seeing is this ping pong game that happens with generations because it's the easy thing to do. It's easy to blame our parents or our grandparents. To and I'm not saying you're doing it, yeah. But without taking into consideration, the time, the tools and whether they were rewarded or punished for trying to find the answers to heal those.

Leighann Lovely 35:21

Right. And I'm not in there is absolutely just just to clarify, I am not blaming any generation for, I'm simply saying that there was a lack of understanding and education in the years past to truly understand that, that emotions are not bad. But they are for some uncomfortable, and therefore, in the past, it was if you need to cry, go in your room and hide and men especially.

Michele Price 35:53

But that was how we were punished that that is how groups of people right, saw that if you can control people from an emotional basis, if you can suppress them, then we can control and manipulate them. Which is why in some of my headers, I don't know if I have it on LinkedIn anymore. But I believe it's still Twitter, or whatever that thing is, well, now that emotions are data for better decisions.

Leighann Lovely 36:20

And now that we are in a state where we're understanding that, while emotions may be messy, but they're, they're necessary, they're necessary for learning, they're necessary for decision making. They're necessary for for so much. We are one, obviously, we're going through this huge, huge mental health pen, like, I don't want to say pandemic, but huge mental health, like issue because people are finally going I need to feel the way I need to feel. And everybody is just feeling this overwhelming, like sense of dread, especially with what the world experienced, blah, blah, blah. But that's going to balance out.

Michele Price 37:11

Because now we're aware of evolution.

Leighann Lovely 37:15

And we're going to balance we're going to balance out because now we're saying it's okay to feel that way. Feel it, get through it, experience what you need to experience, and then thrive. And one day, it's going to balance out and get some of these kids off of these drugs, hopefully. And again, I'm not I'm not an anti drug person, trust me, I have bipolar disorder, my audience knows that I, in order to manage, manage that I take medication, blah, blah, blah, anyways. So it's just it's so messy. We're in such a state of complete mess right now. But I do truly see that there's going to be a balance on the other side, one day, we're going to come to a little bit more of a balance on all of that we're it's just so strange.

Michele Price 38:12

Such a strange time in history, the nature to their cycles and phases in nature. Yes, yeah. So this is one of the things that I usually have to bring up from an indigenous lens to help give people an anchor point of where they can hold on to and attach, hope and understand and ask themselves additional or different questions. And so, yes, we're going through a lot of things as a collective right now, the questions I'd offer people to start asking themselves is, where am I in the phase and the cycle of growth? So if we, if we're going to pick let's say, let's pick a nature growth cycle of a butterfly, am I in the caterpillar stage? Am I in the FUPA stage? Or am I about to emerge, and now I'm about to actually transmute and transform into something else. And so when you use questions to start assessing where you're at, then it allows you to anchor in on that in one stop blaming and shaming yourself because you're not because you're in a different phase than where maybe you mentally or emotionally feeling you are in you're in the pupa stage where you're supposed to be liquefied. And before you start growing into that next thing, which allows you to become a butterfly, stop shaming yourself for being in that phase Instead, start asking yourself different questions. Cool. So now that I'm going down into the liquid state, what are going to be the additional additional opportunities or possibilities that I'll want to tap into So as I go in those more phase, I actually would become more of what I'd like to be.

Leighann Lovely 40:06

Right. That's, that's while you make a very valid point, like, and people I think, forget that sometimes reframing the question, or having a question altogether, that's different. can really change your outlook?

Michele Price 40:28

Yeah, because when I hear people state that they're overwhelmed that, that just means that this is the focus instead of this. So we use questions to go okay, so not that. Okay, so not that when people can't see us, we're on video. So I'm holding my hands wide. And I'm saying, okay, overwhelm is a wide Outland. Every time we ask questions, we narrow that lens until it becomes a point where it's more of a laser. And then we're getting meaningful answers. And we can take action.

Leighann Lovely 41:08

Absolutely. And as entrepreneurs, as in people, that entrepreneurs or people who are very high, you know, decision makers, within businesses, it's sometimes that overwhelming, you can feel it Come on, where all of the sudden you are accomplishing nothing. And then as you focus in and that becomes that focus becomes that pinpoint, you can feel that overwhelming feeling just fall away when you go. Now I know my purpose, I know exactly what I need to accomplish. And all of a sudden, you don't feel that overwhelming. And once you get one project done, you can go okay, now I can move on to the next and I can move on to the next. But it's hard when you're in that point of oh my god, what do I have to do? I've got so much to do, I don't even know where to begin. Okay, well stop. What is the most important thing today

Michele Price 41:55

Where the value of having an advisor correct and help you anchor into what's really happening? Yep. Help you use different questions in the future, using it that moment, and therefore you make what I call a faster or quicker progress.

Leighann Lovely 42:13

And it's hard. Um, it's in I have people in my life where I'll call on him, I don't even know where to start. Like, I've got so many things. I don't even know where to start. And they're like, Okay, what is the most important thing today? What do you have to do right now? That is either revenue generating, or extremely important, you have to hone in on what is the most important thing today? Right now? Well, yeah, I can tell you that it's this. Okay. Go do that. Oh, I can do that. Okay, call me when you're done. Oh, okay. And it's just, it's like, why can't I figure that out on my own? Because you're so overwhelmed, that your brain doesn't have the capacity to just think like that at that moment. So sometimes having a coach having an advisor to just be like, yep, we just need you to click back into your brilliance. You can't on your own because your brain is whirling of NF geeks, especially when you have bipolar disorder, or ADHD, or, which adds another level of fondness to the game, right?

Michele Price 43:29

Yes, it does. And you know, it's interesting, too, because people are starting to finally understand when I talk about this other thing, and that's collective energy. There's now the science is catching up to spirituality, especially indigenous spirituality. People are starting to finally have more of an intellectual understanding of this. But if you've not been so kind of like when you learn how to dance. Now, when you learn how to dance in the beginning, are you going to be able to go out and do all of the different types of dances? Oh, take Sunday, learn each one. And then when you learn each one, you actually can do what's that thing? We're where people can actually just go up and make something someone puts on a record and they just go out and make

Leighann Lovely 44:21

improv.

Michele Price 44:22

Oh, yeah, that that all takes time. Same thing. When we're in a phase right now of collective evolution, other words, that means we're all being activated by the same thing at the same time, and that's where some of the highly motivated, emotional energy is coming from right now. If your spiritual journey has not been one who knows how to transmute that energy, it's going to be overwhelming. And so I remind everybody is Well, when you're feeling overwhelmed when you understand your emotional components, it's a lot easier for you to, again use questions and go okay. What What have I learned about myself that helps ground me? Go do that, then once you're grounded go is the Are these my emotions are these someone else's. And then I literally give clients a whole list of questions to ask themselves. And a lot of times we customize those questions to who they are, in order to help center them, and bring them to a place where they can start taking action. But I also want to remind everybody, it's normal, when the collective is going through something as significant as we are right now, to feel overwhelmed. So stop shaming yourself for it, right? Instead, ask yourself, why do I need to learn about myself that allows me to center and ground myself. So this doesn't take me off my path so easily, right?

Leighann Lovely 46:05

Yes, and I would love to continue this conversation. But we are coming to time. And I want to ask you the question of the season, and I'm excited to hear what you have to say, the question of the season, what do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Michele Price 46:29

I can't give a date. But we will come to a transmutation where when we look back as a people, and as individuals, where we're going to look back and go, Why did we find ourselves so hard? We were all right there on the precipice of being self actualized. And being in touch with who we are as people as individuals, as well as the goodness that's in us as a collective, why do we find ourselves in each other so hard? We were right there,

Leighann Lovely 47:10

you know, for the first for the first time, and and you are a highly empathetic human, very much an empath. You know, just in talking with you, and hearing, you know, and again, for the audience, I, Michelle and I were introduced through a past guest and her and I have not had a ton of time to really talk with each other. This is really the first conversation that her and I have had. And so just wanted to put that out there. But in talking with you, Michelle, you you just really I can tell that you are very in tuned with not only yourself, but with other people. And in talking with you, as I'm sitting here, I'm having this like Flash, and this is my own weird brain. I have like flashes of like pictures of things in my head of like, I'm a visual person. And as we're talking, I feel like I'm seeing this like, almost like a like I'm standing on top of the clouds. And I'm looking down at a tornado and into the center of it. Right. And I feel like that's, that's where we're at where we are in the center of the tornado as, as everything you know, is is colliding together with when it comes to the state of I don't know that. Not explaining this? Well. I don't know that we've ever in history had a pandemic, the Well, no, we haven't had all of this collides since, you know, we haven't had a pandemic since, you know, way back. And anyways, let me finish. We had the pandemic we had, you know, everything that's happening with the economy, we had a president come you know, the the political unrest, we've had all of the stuff happening with the race wars, all of a technology booming through, you know, going through the roof with all of the things that are colliding all at once, just it to me, it's like this tornado of things at all. And we haven't gotten out of it, you know, we still have all of these other, these other things that are contributing to this like tornado. And I feel like there's going to come a time just like you just said, you don't know the date, but there's going to come a time that people are going to look back at this and go Oh, my God, the world spinous so far forward, and they experienced so much in such a short period of time, which I think is why we're fighting it because people don't know They don't know how to handle so much happening in such a short period of time. Maybe by the time my daughter is an adult, she's going to be the one that goes, Why did they fight that? Why? I don't understand. Because she will finally be of the mindset of Yeah, that's how change happens. Right? But for you and me change is not supposed to happen that fast. You mean, it took? When did you get your first cell phone? Michelle?

Michele Price 50:41

Oh, so I was one of the I was I've been an early adopter in almost every form. So I got it when it was like the really big

Leighann Lovely 50:50

right. So did I mean I got I got a cell phone and it was you know, I'm my hands. It was the huge, you know, the, you had a green lettering on it. It was an ugly, huge phone, you had to get a bigger purse just to carry it around.

Michele Price 51:08

It had its own little bag that it zipped up in in car.

Leighann Lovely 51:11

Okay, you have the bag phone, you actually have the bag phone. Okay. So how long did it take from getting the bag phone to having a computer in your pocket? years, years, and years and years? Because then we went through, you know, the flip phones, we went through, you know, the BlackBerry two, it was years until we actually had phones that were now computers. That's how change happens. It doesn't happen where one day you're working in an office and the next day you become a remote employee doing all of your meetings online. But that's what happened.

Michele Price 51:57

Well, sometimes history interferes and causes it to happen faster.

Leighann Lovely 52:02

Yep. So excellent answer. I did not expect to ramble on but I just You had such an amazing answer. So Michelle, if somebody wanted to get a hold of you, how would they go about doing that?

Michele Price 52:16

You know, the best way to get a hold of me is on LinkedIn. So literally linkedin.com Michelle Bryce, I made sure I got my name. No initials, nothing Michelle price.

Leighann Lovely 52:29

Excellent. And that will be in the show notes. So somebody can just go right to the show notes and click there and the link will be there. So Michelle, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. I could talk to you for hours.

Michele Price 52:42

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Leighann Lovely 52:45

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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Dr. Delaine Fowler a business owner, forward thinker and keynote speaker who works to actively help prevent injury before it happens. This is one great conversation with Delaine to learn how she works with organizations to educate them about how the body moves and what can be adjusted to prevent injury. She is a wildly brilliant women and this is a conversation that you don’t want to miss.

Contact - accelerate-pt.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started. Dr. Delaine Fowler is a recognized expert in Work Health Connections, a physical therapist specializing in workplace injury. Delaine has helped 1000s of patients on their road to physical recovery. After years of treating people in her office, she could not help think there was a better way to help people before their problem ended up in surgery. After watching surgeons Chase pain from one body part to another and employees waiting for the doctors to ask the same question she realized this was not going to happen. She decided to start collaborating with companies to find out if changing the way people work might stop employees from what would in many cases be a lifetime of pain and suffering. Due to multiple surgeries only chasing symptoms she quickly discovered treating employees as individual athletes and applying her skill sets in care and coaching had a profoundly positive impact on employees based in the companies today she dedicates her focus toward preventing the strains stress and injury that cost companies millions Delaine company serves 10,000 employees by placing physical therapy and certified athletic trainers where they're needed most the workplace. Her clients include major brands like Aldi, gelled one and Dillard. Delaine is a popular keynote speaker and workplace safety thought leader known for her practical approach and industry shaping insight. Delaine thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have this conversation. Family. And I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 02:49

Thanks for having me.

Leighann Lovely 02:50

Yeah. So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and what you do?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 02:54

Sure. My name is Delaine Fowler, I'm a physical therapist by trade. I fell in Super luckily, early on in my career into helping employees be well and feel well. So I was I got frustrated in my PT clinic, because I was seeing all these employees at the same jobs, getting the same kind of injuries and then having the same surgeries. And so one day, just a few months into my practice, I started calling companies and asking them like, Hey, can I come and look at these jobs, like super curious about what people do, and just had an opportunity to start watching how people work and what people actually do, which is really incredible. To watch how people work and how things are made and how things get done and how food gets to our table. It's just a blessing to us. And a miracle honestly, that we can all come together to make make the world go round. So that so I have been an injury prevention specialist. As a physical therapist for 19 years. I have my own practice. And we now help Bistro, I started out with my little office 15 years ago, helping about 15 people a day. And now we help about 10,000 people a day across the US with our programs.

Leighann Lovely 04:08

That is Wow, that's awesome. And I think when you and I originally spoke and just kind of got to know each other a little bit, the thing that really stood out with me was that you physically go in to some of these companies, when you see, you know, repeat people coming in with injuries that are similar. It just It like makes so much sense. You know, you don't see, you know, you don't see a surgeon going in and saying, Wow, I've seen this injury a million times and they all come from the same. You know, they just they don't do that. Well, they probably don't have time or they don't have time to do that. But it makes so much sense that if you see somebody or a group of people who are working at the same company, well, gee, why don't we go figure out why they all have the same, you know, shoulder injury, what are they doing to To create this same problem, right? So I want to I want to talk about that because I'm, I am wildly fascinated by this. Like, it just seems like so much makes so much sense. You know, and I know there are some of these monster sized companies out there who have, you know, clinics right on site? And I'm sure it's it probably kind of, it's because of that well, and because, you know, hey, if we can treat our employees here, why after them, but tell me a little bit about how you consult with those companies and what you what you do?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 05:40

Sure. And it can be a myriad of things, but are are, what makes an impact with our employers is when we place an athletic trainer or physical therapist in house, with their their company, within the warehouse, or what it however they want us to structure it. And we are basically their frontline health care provider for anything musculoskeletal, and most injuries on site are going to be musculoskeletal related. Because it's kind of like in the military in the military, an army especially they'll send when you get injured, they send you to the PT and PT decides is a musculoskeletal or not. If it's not, you go to the physician right away, right, there's no you go directly. But if it is, then you stay with pte. And so we took that model and applied it in on site. So and these people, they're really not to the injury point, they're even before that they're with just the this is this is tired, this is a fatigue, this is sore. And so you really are going directly to the cause of that issue. Dealing with it very early that way we're dealing with problem when it's this small, not when it's this big. And trying to say okay, well, let's, let's see if we eyes and do all the first aid things that we can here, and then we're gonna go to where you work. Let's figure out like, Oh, are you lifting that box in an odd way? Are you grabbing those potato bags like this instead of, you know, underhanded, like you should, and then coach them into their good habits. So we have a care side and a coaching side of our business. And we'd like to all together, and we like to be that relationship driven person in house with the knowledge. You know, that's usually the problem is that you have these caring HR people, environmental, health and safety employees who want to do the best for their employees, but their knowledge base is in a different direction. And so to have a health care provider there with that knowledge base to say this is musculoskeletal, or this is the reason why this is happening, has had a tremendous impact on our clients.

Leighann Lovely 07:48

And that's absolutely awesome to be able to have somebody physically come in and watch and see. So do you make, you know, do you go then to management and say, Hey, I'm gonna make a recommendation? Can we? Or can we change this up and, you know, alter the way that things are being done?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 08:10

Certainly, and, and we, we definitely put the coaching into the employee because we want the employee. Yeah, we tell our employees a lot alike, you might work at this location, this job for two years, five years, five months, 10 years. But no matter where you go after this, you're going to take your back your shoulder, your neck with you. And so let's teach you into good habits here so that you're carrying them forward, no matter where you go. Now, if it's this line design is improper. So really the way I fell in love with this job and what we do is way back forever ago, I was I was called out to a company, I was watching this lady work and she walked up to me, she said, Hey, should I moved from that line to this line a couple months ago, and ever since my wrist is killing me. I was like, okay, so Well, let's, let's watch, I'll just watch your work. And I realized after like, a few minutes, she was reaching over and pressing this button with a really weird hand posture. Like every 70 seconds. I was like, okay, so I called the maintenance guy over and said, Hey, can we move that button? Like from there to somewhere else where it's a little bit more accessible? And he's like, Yeah, I don't see why not. So I came back just a few weeks later, and the lady almost tackled me she was so happy because she her wrist pain went away. But even more important, all the people on that line had told her Thank you. They had told her thank you because she was the advocate for them so that nobody else on that line had to deal with that risk. So they were all having wrist pain, right? They're all having wrist pain. And so I was like, Oh my gosh, we went to the source, we fix the ergonomic issue. And there it is. And sometimes the ergonomic issue is about line design, but a lot of times it In the bad habits that we build up over time thinking that they're good for us, or that we're, we're getting products faster onto our pallets, or you're making a product widget faster or something. And usually it's not really true. Yeah, it's just a training issue.

Leighann Lovely 10:17

Interesting. And the fact that so many other people stayed silent on that for as long as they did, which is, and we, I guess, as a society, we've just, we've become silent. And we've, I guess, we've taught our employees that that's the way we want them to be. And now we're trying to unravel that behavior. Hey, you're in pain all the time? Well, okay, let's, let's talk about that. Is there something that I can do that's within reason, I mean, obviously, you can't pick up an entire machine or you can't complete, you can't reconfigure the machine completely. But if it's a reasonable accommodation, that's going to actually stop you from being in pain, which inevitably is going to make you more productive. At Why don't people bring it up. And that comes down to fear? Well, if I, if my employer is upset with me, or if I, you know, I mean, but something as simple as that, like, Hey, move this, move this button. But here's something that's I also find, so I was talking to, you know, a friend of mine, and there was a, there was a fan sitting on the floor, because it was a wildly hot day. And unfortunately, where the outlet was, made it so that the cord came across the walkway. And so as somebody was walking through, they said, You need to move, you can't have the fan sitting there. And he's like, Okay, I understand. And then he goes, however, you do realize that the way that this machine is set up, causes the vacuum, that I have to put in the machine to be completely across the walkway every day. So the little tiny cord, that is the you know, trip hazard is nothing in comparison to this vacuum that is set up. So there is often you know, things that our companies are aware of, and they still just turn a blind eye to it unless it's, oh, gee, the cords not supposed to be there. But you know, hey, my vacuum cord might pull vacuum is, you know, it's like, some companies are still very guilty of will break the rules when it satisfies us. But not you know,

Dr. Delaine Fowler 12:50

And, and companies can't do everything all at once either. We found that many of our companies, their management teams, they you know, we've been on this Lean management system for several decades at this point. And so lean management sounds nice. But if you don't have people to take take care of the people, right, and to take care of the problems, you know, if your engineering department gets ransacked through, you know, hiring and turnover, then those lists have to do get longer and longer. And so that's what we find with our especially the find that our clients are companies that hire us. They obviously care a lot about their employees if they're putting a physical therapist or athletic trainer in there to take care of people that in and so but I agree that's that it's like, well, what's the next priority, right? And that gets put in front of some things that seem like well, why can't we just take care of this and some one work area, that those tasks may not even affect this area over here. And so you're sitting there for however long waiting on things to get done. So I can see it both ways. There are there are some companies who could care less like they're just trying to get products out the door and products in the door and but the employers we work with, we can tell that there, they really are trying hard to accommodate and trying to take care of the people especially now like you're really right, that we've come to this point where we realize that our people are our most valuable things. And if we're willing to take care of them, and just even in as many small ways as we can, and not not like just putting lipstick on a pig, like actually caring about them and saying how can we make this workplace better because they're going to spend a third of their day with us? I think those companies are the ones that are actually going to win in the end.

Leighann Lovely 14:43

Yeah, I completely agree. And there's an but if you truly looked at the list, right? Because look at the list of all of the different things that you could that you could do to improve your employees life. That list becomes really long, like with all of the offerings out there, you've got Training and Development you've got, you know, giving, offering extra vacation or, you know, there's companies out there that are now buying employees their lunches or providing lunches on site with huge, you know, read redo your lunch room, redo your space, physical therapy, making sure that I mean, the lists of different that and it's, it's overwhelming for, for companies to be like, Well, how am I going to implement all of this? So the awesome thing is that you are actually seeing companies starting to implement one thing at a time over a period of time. And, and they're not just saying, okay, yeah, we're going to do that they're intentionally making an effort to make their employees lives better. But it's, it's like anything else, it doesn't happen in one day, it doesn't happen in two it happens in, you know, days and months and years. And, but I have seen drastic improvements, you know, there was a time where, when I would walk into some plants, I'm like, Well, I'm not going to use the bathroom here. Because they were, you just knew, like, you walk in and you're like, oh, this place is disgusting. And now I've walked into some manufacturing companies, and I'm like, Oh, my God, I could eat off this floor. It's so clean, it's so pristine. It's, you know, they, they make a huge effort to keep the temperature from being, you know, extremely high, despite the fact that they're running these hats, you know, large machines. They've got huge fans, you know, and that's a huge that's a big deal. Especially when, you know, machinists, you know, back in the old day, you expect them to come home dirty and covered in grease. And that's, that's not, that's not the way that it is anymore. And, and trust me, I grew up my it's, you know, just saw my, my dad to see or doing work. I just thought he, you know, when I was a little when a little kid, he worked at a at a machine company, and he used to come home and he was filthy. But now those those companies you don't, that's not the way that you have to come home anymore. I mean, and there's always the exception. You know, if you've ever walked into a foundry, it's possible to keep a foundry clean. But anyways, I digress. I'm completely off on a tangent here. So tell me a little bit more. Obviously, we've talked about you going physically into these organizations. Tell me a little bit more about you know, what you your business, you know, does back at your, you know, do you do everything from sports medicine to then tell me a little bit more about that.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 17:58

So PT clinic again, we're celebrating our 50th year anniversary today.

Leighann Lovely 18:03

Seriously, it's today? Yeah, today is

Dr. Delaine Fowler 18:05

our day. So we're everybody's excited. And you know, I started my PT clinic helping about 15 people a day. And again, now we help 10,000 people a day, and we help a lot of people my clinic, I'm lucky to have a tremendous team of physical therapists who see everybody from that little kid who is on the spectrum, and their mom just wants them to walk up and down the stairs better, right. So we'll see that kind of issue all the way, you know, to our athletes and our industrial athletes are our people who get hurt on the job. And we really rehabilitate those people who have had surgeries, and all the way up to our, our 90 plus year olds who are live and kick in and say, Look, I just want to be able to, you know, swing my golf club without my shoulder hurting. And so we take a lot of pride in helping our community in Salisbury and in Concord, North Carolina, with our PT care. So it's a lot of fun. It's great to be a part of the community. You know, everybody thinks about physical therapists and all you only go there when you have like when you're an athlete or something like that. And I am really trying to change the paradigm that if it's musculoskeletal, if it's an ache or a pain, that's from your muscles or your joints, a physical therapist should be in your ring of care. You should be in the middle of that care. We love to communicate with our physicians, we love to communicate with chiropractors and acupuncturist and massage therapists, whoever is in that paradigm for you. We think physical therapists should be one of those people and so I try to get the word out as much as possible that you know, so because some people will like it. Well, my I have arthritis in my hands and like yes. But is that really why you're hurting? It could be just tissue tension, because you're getting tight. So yeah, yeah, yeah,

Leighann Lovely 19:58

I've come to understand stands so much more about, I see, I see a chiropractor. And I've come to understand so much more about, you know, the nervous system and understanding, you know, if you get that nervous system working properly, and you know, all of that kind of stuff, and I've seen a physical therapist multiple times throughout my, my life, I'm starting to get old now. So I can, you know, now check the box of all of the doctors that you know, I've had, and as you start to

Dr. Delaine Fowler 20:31

get older every day, yeah.

Leighann Lovely 20:33

And I completely agree you, you absolutely you need to, you know, have all of those individuals communicating. Because if they're not, it's like just throwing darts at the board, and hoping that you hit the right spot. But yeah, I, I still do the recommendations of my physical therapist and my chiropractor and keep myself, you know, straight as I hunching over in my chair.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 21:08

And so that's what I'm talking about physical therapy. Do

Leighann Lovely 21:12

I know sit up straight, like, oh, yeah, not my past.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 21:16

The dreaded P word, the posture or Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 21:20

And my posture is terrible. Like, I'll remind myself on a regular basis, like stop like hunching over, like, yeah, it's terrible.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 21:31

You see thing with a chair, when you sit in a chair quite a bit like I do a standing desk. So I, it took me a couple of months to train into it, to stand like I used to, I will be able to stand in the morning, but towards about two o'clock or so I'm like, not think anymore, let me sit down so I can think. But it took me about six weeks. And now I can stand and think and write and do all those things. So I like my, my standing mobility desk is like falling because I can put my feet up and I can put my feet in any way just move whatever I want. But the nice thing about chair is that you can take a towel and roll it up about this big and put it in your low back. And then that that automatically pulls you back. And so you don't even have to think about it. It's just there. So when you're driving when you're sitting in a chair, and I

Leighann Lovely 22:15

actually have a pillow that little, the little the little minute. However, I never actually

Dr. Delaine Fowler 22:22

you can't get back onto it.

Leighann Lovely 22:23

I never actually sit back I'm always on the end of my chair. Which is terrible. Like I always am on the end of my chair, always leaning forward always. And that's my, that's my horrible, like posture thing. And then by the end of the day, I'm like, Why do my elbows hurt? Because I'm always leaning on my elbows. I'm always you know, have my, my, you know, and if the if the audience could actually see us, you know, I'm putting my chin and my hand and by the end of the day and my face hurts because I'm like, doing all these goofy. I don't know, I my husband is my husband would come in to you. And he's like, you've got that look on your face. And I'm like, what look and he's like that stupid. Look, you get what you're deep in thought. And I'm like, Ah, thanks, honey. But I have friends who I've met. I'm actually met at work. who've known me for 15 one well, one my actually one of my best friends. She She says it too. She's like, you get this work. Look. She's like, and she goes, it's like the stupidest look. And I'm like, great. That's That's fabulous.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 23:32

When my when my middle son my nine year old is really if he's done this since he was little when he's really focusing he sticks his tongue out. Oh does see. Jordan, you know, like, Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 23:42

I do this thing with my lips. Apparently. Where am I pucker my lips or something? And I've had multiple people go, what are you doing with your lips? And I'm like, I don't know. Thinking, right? The game really hard. And then one day I actually saw my my grandfather doing something with his lips. And I was like, I wonder if that's what I do. He's like puckers his lips out. And I'm like, I bet you that's what I do. It looks really dumb.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 24:16

We all have we all have our studies or kind of crazy things we do.

Leighann Lovely 24:19

Yeah. Yes, we do. We all have our, like resting. I'm gonna say that for the rest of your face. But yeah,

Dr. Delaine Fowler 24:29

Yeah, I always say we're all beautifully and wonderfully made and all unique. And so we have to appreciate that uniqueness about ourselves and accept it for what it is.

Leighann Lovely 24:38

And now in the Zoom world and in all of the technology, I am forced to look at myself and realize the faces that I sometimes make and I'm going Oh, okay. So what are some what are some of the advice you give to people, whether they're, you know, standing all day working or sitting all day? I mean,

Dr. Delaine Fowler 24:59

Yeah, So so for people who work from home and people who are in offices, we were we weren't built to be still, whether it's sitting or standing, we were built to move, even, they did research on astronauts, and they put them up into space and said, Okay, when they sleep because there's no gravity, they're going to move, they're not going to move. Because they won't have the weight, their joints won't want, don't, don't need to readjust, they'll be happy. But the truth is, they move all the time. And in space, and almost as much as they do on Earth, while sleeping. And so I want to, for everybody to own the fact that our bodies and our brains are very much connected, that that we have to emotionally unwind, physically unwind within that rest time while we're sleeping. And so getting good rest, it's not just good for you to for just your brain and your body, but them together. So I always encourage people, like, if you want to have a better work life, getting that sleep and unwinding in that sleep and allowing yourself to unwind in that time is really, really important and finding a quality sleep. And then from a desk point, again, I call my desk, my mobility desk is a standing desk, but I can put my feet up, I can put my feet over on my desk, I can work like this, I can work like this, I can work straight on. So I give myself a lot of options to stand, I change my shoes out, I'll take my shoes off, I'll do all those things. So it's it's good to stay mobile. You know, you can do all sorts of split stance, like, put one foot behind the other to work. And all that is really good for you throughout the day. But just standing in one place, or sitting one place all day, it really is draining on our energy sources in our middle capacity throughout the day.

Leighann Lovely 26:59

Interesting. So I gotta go back to this in space thing. Yeah, so even. So I always assumed that the reason that your body you know, when at rest, that the reason that your body moved is because you were putting pressure in for a long period of time on on one side of your body, or you're putting pressure on on something and that you're adjusting for what you just said, because it's an uncomfort thing, or so even in, in rest in space when there is that that concern because there is no gravity, you have no pressure point. The brain is still saying that you should move. And why do you why do you think that is?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 27:49

I think again, I just think that our systems are built to move people are meant to move, we don't move enough. And in our in our societies today, we've devalued Exercise and Movement. And what that would what that really looks like for human beings, right? We've been using these big ol brains and saying, Well, we got to pick our brains, why do we need the rest of it? Right? This little meat pod that I'm in can just do whatever. But with why I think the astronauts move is because and why we move at night is because we're emotionally unwinding throughout the day. So I don't know if you've ever had an emotional release. I'm so lucky that as a student, as a PT student, I had this lady and she was lovely. I was trying to help her get her right shoulder. It was a phrase that she had a frozen shoulder. And we were working on it working on it. But we couldn't get that last like 20 degrees of flexion. She just could not get there. And so one day is like Okay, listen, I'm gonna stick my hand in your armpit. I'm gonna massage a muscle that's in there just to see I don't know, you know, I'm just gonna try this. Are you good with it? She's like, Yeah, we get we're having a lovely conversation laughing talking. I stuck my hand in her armpit and she lost it. Like full a full on ugly cry. And she said, I don't know why I'm crying. She's like, it doesn't hurt. She's like, I don't know why I'm crying. She cried three more times. We got the range of motion back. But in that moment, I realized that we get emotions and memories and all these things stuck somewhere. Occasionally, I wouldn't say they're all the time. But and if we're not moving enough, we're not allowing our emotional selves and our mental selves to have the full capacity of their our health. Right? We do it so so I think the astronauts move because they're they're physically manifesting their thoughts and emotions and they need to a way to escape.

Leighann Lovely 29:50

Interesting and wow, that and that's that's an amazing story. And and I think that you're very correct in that move. meant is is not just about the simple movement that there's there's more to it that it is our brains way of expressing. Because, again, you'll see that in, in a complete crowd, for instance, who's experiencing something profound or for you go to a concert, right? All of a sudden, you see everybody at the same time jumping up and down, and you're like, why is everybody's reaction to jump up and down at a very, you know, excite exciting sound? Why isn't it? Right? And then all of a sudden, you go to, you know, a different venue where it's a very emotional song and you see everybody go very still, you know, you don't, it's, it's almost, like you said primal, it's, it's like your body is natural reaction is it follows the brains, obviously, the brain, you know, controls the body, but those, you know, you don't see somebody jumping up and down. Typically, when it's a very emotional, you know, sad or profound, you don't typically somebody jumping up and down, right?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 31:11

So the interesting thing about so even even a person who doesn't have their sight, if they are running and win the race, they still go into victory, even if they can't see that, you know, they still so we as as human beings, we have our signs for you know, I am victorious I am this I am that, why? Why do moms, dads probably do it too. But why do moms when they have their babies on their hip? Are they doing? Rock? Right, right? I don't hold my four year old all that much anymore, but I usually keep what usually wants me to hold him while we're at church. And like, there'll be music going on. So I just find myself like so, so funny, but I don't do it. If he's not I'm not wanting,

Leighann Lovely 31:57

right. No, no, I, I always whenever I was holding my, my daughter, and she's five now so I can barely pick her up and hold her for any length of time.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 32:09

Those suckers get heavy,

Leighann Lovely 32:11

I know, she tries to jump in my lap. And I'm like, I have to brace myself. Now. I'm like, Oh, my God. But But you're right, there is universal things that people do without, without even knowing that they're doing it. blind individual, even people who, you know, people who are deaf, they will make the same, you know, almost types of noises. And they can't even hear themselves. But they will still you know, and those who do make noises who do have some verbal, they will still make the, you know, ah, when they're excited? Yes. But they don't they don't hear that there are universal things that are ingrained in us from whatever, right, something it's the same thing again, you know, if you were to start to study animal behavior and things like that, why is it that animals that have never seen each other from across, you know, hundreds of miles of way? All do an act the same way? If they're the same species? Right? You know, then we can go into the whole psychology of how is it that the whales in the ocean seeing a new? Or is it whales or dolphins?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 33:18

Yeah, dolphins with my kids, we're talking about how different animals in the ocean communicate? And how, like, all the whales have a different song. And every year, it's different. Yeah, that's just incredible. And yeah, people are a lot like that. So and it kind of goes back to what you were talking about why, why why do people not self advocate? Why are Why are we sitting stuck with our employers, instead of you know, speaking up and having an outlet for it, we have some incredible employers. And so if if you have a complaint about your area, or something going wrong in your area, you can record it and goes on a task list. We've solved one big problem for one of our employers in there, where we're helping prioritize those task lists in an order of physical demand. And, and and how many people it affects, right? So it could be a low physical demand, but if it's affecting 400 people, maybe that's a priority, right? So and, and so we're helping that them along and have have certainly crunched down on their tasks, but it gives the employee an outlet, even if there's somebody who, you know, doesn't like to make waves or whatever. And I think sometimes, if we've had an upbringing to where, like mom and dad are the authority, they are right teacher is authority, he or she is right, you know, in and you're lost in that versus let me find my own voice. You may end up being that employee that's like, well, I can't say anything, even though like my wrist is killing me. So I appreciate companies who will give people a way to self advocate And also we need to remember to, on the employee side, assume one of my HR friends the other day said, assume good intentions. If we just started with, let's assume good intentions, until it's proven otherwise, on both sides of that coin, and to be kind to your manager, because a lot of times first line managers like, this is the first time they're doing this, this is like their first rodeo, and trying to figure all of it out, and you want them to be the expert, because because they have the title of manager or HR person or whatever. They're still growing too. And so I, we try to talk a lot about that as consultants as well. I tried to tell our athletic trainers, who might have been athletic trainers for a long time and doing consulting with with us in our industries and say, look like you're gonna run into managers with the managers for a long time, you got ones that were just last week in the employee shoes, and now they're managers. So let's, let's give them the benefit of the doubt and help them along.

Leighann Lovely 36:02

Right, right. And those in those first time managers are often you know, everybody's going to run to them, they have a relationship with all the employees, everybody's going to unload on them. And they're gonna go, oh, I can't go to my manager with all of this, because you know, now they're trying to navigate what that looks like,

Dr. Delaine Fowler 36:22

right? Yeah, my husband's. He's, he had a small management group, before he took his new job, and now he's over managers. And so that's been a new dynamic for him. It's been fun to watch him grow in saying like, how do I, it's not really about me, managing all the people under my team, it's about me helping my managers be better managers, right. And so it's kind of fun to watch his progress as he develops. And then and to take that in as myself to you. I have a I have a team of 50 people and 40 and 40 to 50 people that that work in our company. And so, yeah, it's easy for me just to pick up the phone and solve a problem that that's maybe probably not what I should be doing. And so I try to remind myself, like, let me let my manager sign. Let me let our CEO shine and do the right things.

Leighann Lovely 37:09

And that's amazing. So I want to point that out again, before we start to wrap up, and I asked you the question the season, you said 15 years? It is because this is not going to go out today. It is September 1 today, and you've celebrating 15 years in business. Congratulations. That's absolutely amazing. You started off with just you and how did your business start?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 37:35

Yeah, so I had a front office person, me part time and a PT assistant part time and then I had to work another job to make ends meet. So so for about three years, I I worked part time in my business as I grew that PT assistant to a full time and kept working my other job. And then I was pregnant with my first son. And I took this leap of hiring this amazing PT and I and she was really taking a risk on us too, because she was already she had already been a manager. And I asked her and I'll never forget, I asked her in her interview, I'm like, you already have a great job, I cannot pay you what you're making. And I was like, why would you want to come work for me. And she said, Because I have a six month old at home that I see before she gets up in the morning. And after she goes to bed. Because as I managed a role she was working 1214 hours a day. And so I we I gave her her her time with her children back and gave her a steady job to work in and she gave me an amazing time. So that was 10 years ago, we just celebrated her 10 year anniversary. That's correct. And those those kinds of stories that's really it wasn't me that did it. It was all the people along the way that we're diving in to say we care about people and my you know, I can't I can't be in 22 states at one time, right? But we can find people who care about people who are we have a in our mission statement that we are a group of happy engaging passionate professionals. And so if we can show up like that every day for our clients and our employees like we're doing the right thing

Leighann Lovely 39:16

that that is an absolute amazing story and wow in sometimes that's that's what it takes is finding the people who who want to have that journey with you. However however selfish it may be, excuse me however selfish it may be. It becomes a an absolute beautiful story and a beautiful Oh, that sounds so cool. I was gonna say in a beautiful friendship.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 39:46

You know, and and I I love I love people in general and I care about people a lot. So it's it's fun to work with people that are just fun to work with. Right Yeah, in and keep growing, there are a lot of people to help. Our big goal is to help 50,000 People now, right? We're helping 10,000 People now, we want to help 50,000 people, well, we have the system, do it, we have all the data show it works. And and now we just are excited to help whoever wants to open that door.

Leighann Lovely 40:21

That's amazing. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. What do you think will go down in the history books? From what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 40:33

Yes, well, I definitely don't think the world will ever be the same. And, you know, in the last three years we've had aI was happening before the last three years for sure. I've I certainly had different things that you would have to pay for that would write things for you and do things for you, a Netflix, Amazon, that's all AI. But with the Donna Donna, these more public domains that are free for people, and the start of computer learning computer model learning. I think that that in itself, the pandemic, it's going to change everything about how we all do our jobs. And I think the lesson we need to learn is that even though we all get older every day, there's no reason to stop learning, we have to keep learning because if not, we're gonna get replaced even as a physical therapist, even as an HR person, even as a podcaster. You know, is chat GPT good enough to replace the podcaster? No, because a podcaster is relaying off of what the guest is saying. And the guest is talking to so just the new jobs that are going to come out of this last three years, between the pandemic how fast we were able to create a vaccine from genetic, you know, genes and RNA, like, that's just mind boggling that we'll be able to tack attack, you know, outside sources that are at bay, you know, are keeping us at bay from a society to grow. It's just gonna be wild to watch. But I think the the lesson we have to learn is that we can't stop learning, we have to keep figuring out those next steps to keep us as a human race together. To love one another to care about one another. I, I borrow my kids from being online too much, because we have friends down the street. So I'd rather than going hang out with the friends down the street than the greater world even if they're best friends online. I'm like, Yeah, but they're not with you. Right? You need to be in their energy. You need to be with them and move with them, not sit out on the couch and and play with them. They are that's all well and good. And it can help people connect when they need to. But it's not a it's not a solution for community and care and all that. So I think that even though we have this world that's so vast now and like, Yeah, I'm calling you from your work together. I'm in North Carolina, where you are. And it's just so I think that learning how to connect and learning how to love one another even if we know our worlds are much bigger is really important.

Leighann Lovely 43:20

I that is an awesome, awesome answer. And I remember the first time like this was this was pokeymon go time. Okay, so this was quite a few years ago. But I remember the first time I saw a little he wasn't so little but he was he was probably about 12. He looked like he was 17 he was so tall. Such he was just a huge kid. His dad was a very large man. And I remember he and his friend were outside. And I'm like, I looked at my husband. I said, What are they doing? And he goes, I'm not really sure. And I'm like, do they have like an iPhone or an iPad? So they were outside they were they were outside playing? They must have been like, hey, go outside and play but they they had they had like a, an iPad. And they were doing this whole Pokeyman go thing and I'm like, I don't get it. Like, what? What happened to the days of kids just going outside and kicking a soccer ball around? And you know, and then we learned about this whole Pokeyman go thing happening? And then you just saw every button like, what is this? Like what is happening to the world where you can't even go outside and play without technology in your hand. I mean, and obviously this was many years ago, but this was still like to me who's 42 years old. I wrote in the summer, I rode my bike to my girlfriend's house. We then rode our bikes all over the city. We went to the beach and we went but again, we didn't have some phones. I didn't get my first cell phone until I was 18 years old 19 Sometime in that time period, and it was this, it was huge.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 45:11

I had the break that I was not allowed to touch unless it was an emergency in my car.

Leighann Lovely 45:15

Yeah, my parents had a had a car phone, it was actually it was actually installed in their car. And I used to pretend that I like was talking, because I was cool. But, you know,

Dr. Delaine Fowler 45:30

I nology it's amazing. Like, you know, technology's amazing. But it's not a replacement for connecting with one another. And it's not a it's not a replacement for not moving. Again, I think our mental health is suffering because we're not moving enough. And so I throw my kids outside as as much as possible not to get them out of my hair. I go and sit outside as much as possible. One of my friends was like, I was complaining about something she like, you need to check your vitamin D right. Now my mind would be fine, because I'm outside.

Leighann Lovely 46:00

Right? And that's the other thing is how like, mental health is suffering? Well, vitamin D, how many? How frequently do people sit in their homes versus sitting outside in the sun. And that is, you know, my doctor still to this day, in the winter will recommend make sure you take your vitamin D because you're not outside as as often. Well, how I mean, that's got to be weighing on the world, because we're not outside as much as we used to be. Well, anyways, we're,

Dr. Delaine Fowler 46:33

Those are mine. Those are my three, I appreciate your your thoughts, too, because it's, it's important. Yeah, it's important for us to raise a generation of the next generation in the right way. And to help people who work really hard. I always say, during the pandemic, when I would go to some of our facilities, one of them is a grocery store. And I would go there and almost start crying saying thank you to those employees for showing up to work. Because if they didn't show up, like I'm from the south, but I cannot grow a carrot like I can't, I don't hunt, I can't shoot a gun. So So and while I probably could shoot one, but I'm not gonna hit anything. And so to to have people who are showing up to work so I can have food on my table, I can feed my children, that's really, really important. And so I just really appreciate people doing the things that make the world go round.

Leighann Lovely 47:24

Yep. Oh, yeah. And that brings me back to something I was going to say before, when you when we were talking about the whole thing about moving, we were back when humans first existed, that is what the body was made for. We weren't made for having these high, intelligent brains, we had them. We were capable of making tools. But our bodies were created in order to have the capacity to hunt, to gather, to be able to be on the move from the time that we woke up in the morning until the time that we went to bed. And that, you know, and we don't do that anymore. We now go to the grocery store and buy our food. So I'm gonna guess that part of the reason that our bodies are created to move is because that's what we needed to do in order to survive. Right?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 48:13

Yeah, again, it's so primal. It's so fundamental, just to move in and to allow that instead of to fight that kind of like we talked about your lizard brain, right? The, you know, we're always talking my god fight your lizard brain. Well, maybe in this case, we don't need to fight our lizard brain, we just need to give into it and to be active. And once you crest over, oh, I am a human moving. I'm not just a human being, then then we can really get somewhere. I send my kids to a particular school. And I used to Jopling say I'm like, yeah, they move more than now I say no, they move they move more like they have more recess. They have more experiential learning where they're actually, instead of learning about the plane on screen, they're going outside and finding the plants. Right, yeah, all those things. And so I send my kids to their school because I know they move more. And that's more important to me than any book learning that they're doing during the day.

Leighann Lovely 49:06

Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Dr. Delaine Fowler 49:11

Absolutely. So they are welcome to contact us and on our website, accelerate-pt.com And you can click on my name and email me right there. So that's the easiest way to get a hold of me. And if you want to talk to my team there, everybody's on there all the time so we can hit you back and love to chat.

Leighann Lovely 49:36

Awesome. This has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and sharing. You know about yourself and your story. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

Dr. Delaine Fowler 49:49

No I, appreciate you having me on me. This was great. Super Amazing as a host, so appreciate you.

Leighann Lovely 49:54

Yeah. Well, thank you. You have a great day. Thank you again for listening to letste Hawk HR I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

employees, companies, physical therapist, move, managers, athletic trainers, employers, pt, people, musculoskeletal, helping, brains, sitting, put, learning, unwind, huge, years, body, job

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With 30 years in corporate helping fortune 500 companies grow their brands Sara Hanaway took the leap into entrepreneurship. Now as a speaker, coach and consultant she focuses on helping people and teams embrace change improve resilience and navigate through chaos. As someone that has experience personal and professional change, Sara knows all to well to help others navigate this. Tune in as this is a conversation that you don’t want to miss.

Contact -Sara Hanaway

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/sarajhanaway

Website - sarahanaway.com

E-mail - sara@sarahanaway.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Sara Hanaway 02:38

Thank you, Leighann. I'm really excited to be here with you today.

Leighann Lovely 02:41

Your bio, you know, obviously is like starts off with a bang. And so I'm sure that there's plenty of people who, you know, listen to that, you know, I died. That's a That's a crazy statement to hear. So I'm really excited to have you tell us a little bit about yourself. And your story. Like, I got to know.

Sara Hanaway 03:05

Yeah, it's, um, it's a pinch. It's how I start all of my presentations. When I speak to teams and organizations, I actually tell the full story of how I died. I'll give you a slight synopsis today, because it really is the foundation for everything that I use in my life and business. And so 25 years ago, a truck came into my lane. And basically the accident reconstructionist said, If my car would have been over a fraction or a millimeter, the truck would have went right over me and I wouldn't be here. So I was stopped on a guardrail. It took them about two and a half hours to get me out. They had to bring the jaws of life I went to a local hospital where they then flight for life me to freighter, which is a big hospital here in Milwaukee. And I was there and this is where it gets fuzzy. I was in ICU for at least a week, but it might have been 10 days I can't remember. I was intubated. I broke all my ribs on flailing fracture one side I had a collapsed lung so I couldn't breathe on their own. So when the pandemic hit a few years ago, when people were talking about being on machines to breathe, I'm like, you don't want to be on one. It is not fun. I remembered it and I had a lot of vivid memories. And it took me about two years to really recover from the accident fully like to feel more back normal. You can't tell about me I actually do have permanent damage. I have limited motion on my left side and I developed a heart condition because of that. So at the whopping age of 30 Something I'm sitting in a cardiologists office and all these little nice old people which I have to be careful because I'm now one of them are like what are you doing here? And I'm like, Yeah, you can't tell but I have a heart condition. and, and really what that taught me is it taught me and became the foundation of everything I used for customer experience, which was my almost 30 year career in the corporate world, but also how to thrive and roll with change, and really what resilience is all about. And so those are the things that I'm using in my new business adventure, to help other people really push through the discomfort that happens with life. Life cannot happen without change. And our biggest struggles, as we all say, this end up being our most huge triumphs, even though they're really rough to go through. So I'm trying to use all of that knowledge and help other people as well. So yes, I did code twice, I forgot the important thing. I did code twice in the Hello, helicopter. That's how I say I died. I did not know that. The the medics came and told me that in my room, I was like, I had no idea that that was not part of part of my knowledge. Right.

Leighann Lovely 06:00

Wow, that that is absolutely amazing. Well, I mean, not amazing that you had to go through. I mean, the recovery portion of that had to have been horrific. But the statement that just stands out to me is that the feeling of triumph, after experiencing something that is so hard, and it's so true, the harder it is to get through something, the more triumph we have, the more you know, wow moment that, that at the end of it, we go, Oh, my God, I I did that I made it through that I survived that. And for you, it truly was sort of survival.

Sara Hanaway 06:45

It was it was it was survival. But also at the same time, one thing I noticed is you don't notice the progress you're making when it's something that takes that long, like a year and a half after my accident, I was seeing a specialty doctor because I just didn't have stamina, and I still couldn't breathe fully in my left lung. And they did all the tests and the lung was fine. And like it didn't, it just didn't feel right. And he finally explained it to me in a way of you aren't supposed to recover that fast your body went through a trauma. And what happens when your body goes through a trauma is that it ages he goes even women who give birth, when you give birth, you're going through a trauma. And the reason every doctor says it takes a full year for you to get back into a rhythm for your body to get is because your body aged and went through a trauma it can it'll go back and it did eventually he goes, but that's why you're tired. That's why when you work an eight hour day, you're you're exhausted because you're still healing from that trauma. And it was that moment that I realized I had made so much progress, because after the accident, I was back at work full time about six or seven months afterwards. And I worked at Harley Davidson at the time. And so I went back during an anniversary, which anyone who works events, which I did, those are long hours. Thankfully, that one I did not pull 13, 14 hour days because I physically couldn't. So I literally did a shift and and that was the first time that I was back full full in full gear other than that I was working part time, and you don't realize the progress. And until someone else pointed out to you when the journey is that long. And that's one of the reasons I wanted to help coach other people is so that you can see the progress because anyone who hears my story is like what I developed a complication about a month after going home to the hospital. And so the doctors like if you do not get up and move, you are going to have to have surgery. My long was sleeping fluid. And I was like, well, that motivated me. I didn't want to have surgery. And I just started slowly doing things. And it started with easy little things like right, I walked up the steps. I rolled the exercise bike for three minutes. And then the next day it was two, and then two more minutes. So five. So those are the things that I started to learn going well, that is progress, right? And a lot of times, especially in the corporate world, in the business world, we always measured progress at the end, like ooh, the the project launch nice, go on to the next thing. And we would forget the milestones in between. And when I became a manager of people, because of my accident and knowing all those milestones that I did. I started making sure that we were paying attention to the little milestones so that when we got to the big thing the team was already like, yeah, we launched it, that's great, but they knew they were making progress along the way. So that's what I mean by setup foundation for me to like really learn how to lead and be as a human and being in this world, because you learn a lot really fast when you're not ready for it.

Leighann Lovely 10:06

And that's your So corr., you know, I'm flashing back to in my audience knows that I have bipolar disorder, I'm flashing back to a time in my life where I was wildly unhealthy and I never really, you don't you don't realize, as you're going through in, in projects that you're doing, you you get to the point where you're like, Yay, we're we've gotten there. And it's such a brief fleeting feeling, especially in the business world of you, you celebrate it, and then you're like, your boss or whoever is like, okay, all hands on deck to the next one. And you're like, Well, wait, wait, I don't even get to, you know, finish my drink. You know, I've got a whiskey here celebrating it. And they're like, yep, Nope, don't dump it out. Let's go. Yep. But and I look back on my history. And I'll look back at pictures of myself when I was really, really unhealthy. And when somebody who has a mental health disorder, often you can see it just in in their demeanor, the way they stand the way they look the way they. And I'll look back at pictures of myself. And I'm like, wow, I didn't realize I even looked that way. And then you look at me now. And for me, when I was really unhealthy, I was extremely thin, I was under 100 pounds. And there were times where I would look at pictures, and I go, who is that? And my parents would go, that's you? And I would look again and go, Oh my God, why didn't anybody tell me I looked so sickly. And they're like, Well, we tried. And I'm like, What do you mean, you try it? And they're like, well, we would we would tell you you need to eat, you know, you're really thin. You look really unhealthy. And you'd be like, oh, yeah, I am really thin like I and you would think it was a compliment. And I was like, oh, oh, because it was really unhealthy. It was really. And now I look back at that and go, Wow. Well, now I'm a little overweight, and I've gone the other way. Anyways, I'm happy and healthy. The point being is that in life in business and everything, you are completely correct. We don't celebrate the milestones. We celebrate the end, which makes the everything in between that much more difficult, because you're like, oh, today was a really rough day. But what did you accomplish? Yep. Like, some days, you're like, Oh, God, it was so hard. But at the end of the day, the amount of work that's that you got done, or the amount of, you know, the fact that you've completed a huge portion of a project goes unnoticed. Because management wants to see the end result, often. And they forget that within that end result there are there are so many triumphs.

Sara Hanaway 12:42

Yeah, and for me, one of the things that I, I learned, and I was really good at helping other people not always good for myself, so is that you can balance well being while still producing results. Because from my accident, I was getting better. I mean, I started from having to learn how to have to sit up again. You know, I had to walk again, I wasn't, I didn't have to relearn how to walk. But after not walking for 10 days, these are all things your muscles are like, Screw you, we're not doing anything, it was much nicer laying in a bed. So you have to start all over and do all of these things. Or the little things you take for granted. Like I couldn't wash my own hair for the longest time. Like my mom had to come home and wash my hair. I mean, none of us think about that when we get in the shower, and there's like a washing my hair. And it's all of a sudden, like, I still to this day, every once in a while I'm like, wow, you're washing your own hair, which sounds crazy. But because of that, I really learned that I wanted my team to have well being and that meant that I needed to help them recognize the little things or even recognize when they're having a bad day. Like, hey, you still accomplish something today, what did you accomplish? Or it would be things like you came to my office. And finally we're done being on the hamster wheel of trying to solve the problem yourself. And you pulled the help chain. Um, like, that's a really great thing that you did today. Well, but I you know, and then they'll be like, but I should have solved it. I'm like, you solve 90% of the problems 10% You bring to me, that's a good thing. These are the things that that we should do. And what happened is my team is like, Well, wait a minute, my well being matters. And I'm like, Yes, we can still produce results. And we did all of my teams. I had phenomenal growth. We did great things with it. Harley Davidson MBRP. But I balanced their well being at the same time and I was really passionate about that. But I find in a lot of corporations. It's exactly what you said. I want to see the end result and then we don't even take time to celebrate that end result. It's like great job. Okay, go and it's like no, no, no, no We take time to celebrate that as well, we have other work to do. But you can do both. And I firmly believe that is something that's missing in the corporate world, is when you focus only on the end results, and not on people as human beings. That's why we get quiet quitting. That's why we get great resignation. That's why we have disengagement. And these are all things in my new business that I'm I'm trying to work with people on, especially new managers who've never led a team. I didn't, I didn't know what I was doing. And these are all things that it's like, well, I want to be treated as a human being not as a cog in a wheel. Right.

Leighann Lovely 15:39

And it's, and you bring up a really awesome point, the quiet quitting the, because when people when people don't feel that their manager, and I'm not saying that their managers don't notice, but the managers get so wrapped up in like we need to produce, we need to get this out the door, we need to finish this project, they often they also forget that because their managers, you know, if those if that's middle management, in that we're not talking about sea level, you know, we're middle management is also under the pressure to get this project done, get this project done, get your team to do this project. And then you know, the C suite is looking at it from a financial standpoint of, we need to get this out the door so that we can get the next thing done. And they're not the ones actually doing the work. So when it's when it's completed, their sense of of triumph is very kind of subdued, because they're like, Okay, great, the team got it done. Let's move on to the next. So they're not feeling so, you know, there's there's that missing link of Yeah, because the C suite didn't go through the pains to get it done. They don't have that sense of oh, great job, great. It's the people who are actually doing the work and the people who are actually doing the work have the pressure from the top down. And the top down, obviously, the higher up you get, the less the triumph is because they weren't in the in, you know, in the gutter is doing the work.

Sara Hanaway 17:10

Yeah, I think the manager level, which is where I like to focus, a lot of they get, I call it the screw, they get it from the top, and they get it from the bottom, because they're trying to support their team, and they're trying to deliver the results. And, you know, in full candor, I was not good all the time with myself, like my team would even tell me, you should practice what you preach. Because I was, you know, getting it from, you know, wanting to make sure we hit our goals, but at the same time supporting my team. And I would have to learn the lesson over and over again, even though I was really good at doing it with my team. And I knew all this from my accent, my life and my career, I would be like, I would get to the point that I would be so exhausted. And it's like, you aren't practicing what you preach. And that is not a good leadership practice. And one of my favorite stories, though, is, as I as I moved up the chain in the corporate world, and I became a leader of people, I prefer a leader of people than manager or supervisor, because I believe in a leader has power with people not power over I'm that's just my philosophy of leadership in general. And the term manager just is full of power over instead of power with. And when I became a leader, one of the things I promised myself is I wouldn't forget what it took of all the work that we do, because literally we would all say it. The C suite is up in their office. They don't do the work. They don't they they don't understand what it takes. And a couple years ago, I had someone on my team, she had just graduated college. So brand new in the role learning lots, and we were having a one on one. And I was like I'm, I'm I'm not understanding why you're struggling so much. And what why this is taking so long. And she looked right at me. And she's like, You have had 25 years to do this. You can do what I'm doing right now in your sleep because you've done it over and over. I'm on your one, Sarah, I'm on your one. And I went, Whoa, you are right. You haven't developed the innate skill to repeat this process over and over. Not the way not the way I do it. But just the process in general. She's like, so it takes me longer. So if it takes you an hour, add an hour or two for me. I was like, that's a good reminder. And then we would have dialogue. I'm like, Well, how long do you think this would take and those kinds of things because it was one of those learning moments of Yes, I can do something much quicker but someone brand new can't in my setting my expectations for her way up here wasn't a valuable one. And that's what I use as an example when I work with managers all the time. because we do that we know how to do something so much faster. And we have the, I was listening to your last episode, where you said something that I say quite often, it's just faster for me to do it myself. And it's like, that is not the right phlosophy.

Leighann Lovely 20:19

Right. And that's in that's as you were saying that, you know, that's what scares me about my own business. Because I'm like, there's going to come a time where I'm going to have to turn over this work. And I'm going to have to put in the time, and I'm going, you know, into that person. And I'm going to have to remind myself on a regular basis, because I'm not a control freak, by any means. However, I am a very much i, it needs to be done in this way, for this reason, kind of kind of person, like I want it done this way. But I'm going to have to start to let go of that a little bit and allow other people to find their way. And in the way that works for them. And I've been very successful at coaching other people, coaching other people at reminding them that, you know, hey, you have to, you have to allow other people to find their flavor, you have to allow other people to find their, you know, what really syncs with their brain. But the actual doing it for my own business scares the crap out of me, even though I know all of this, I'm a highly self aware person, I'm very aware of, you know, when I say something to somebody, and all of a sudden, something comes up. And I also, you know, have a tendency to say stupid stuff. And I and I know it when I say it, because I'll look and go, Oh, crap, the response to the especially with my husband, you know, I'll say it and then I go, oops, that's not going to go over well. Because I am, I'm very, you know, very self aware. And that, and that's what scares the living daylights out of me is when I hire my first person. For my own business. I know already the problems that I'm going to have, which is I'm going to start off with the micromanagement of you got to do it this way. And then I'm gonna go no, no, no, no, no, no, no, stop, Leon, stop, stop trying to micromanage they can they're this is an adult, who you give them the, this is what I need, this is the end result that I need, here are the tools to get there. I'm sure that you can figure out how to get the end result with these tools. You don't have to do it exactly like this. You know, I'm not a doctor, I don't they don't either. They don't have to cut this exact mark in order to not kill somebody, you know. They're and for me, and for many I know, there's many managers out there who are the same way like you have to do it precisely. It doesn't always have to be done the same way, as long as you're getting that same end result. And everybody always thinks that their way is the best. And not everybody is right, because not everybody can be right. Right. Right. And so, and I know that I'm that much. You know, when my husband says it all the time he goes, You always think you're right. And I'm like, Well, of course I do. Of course I do. But I'm also I'm also always willing to take feedback from anybody. I love feedback. I love people who are willing to say stop that. I don't believe that's the best way. Can we try it this way? And I'm open to that. But it has, I have to have somebody who's willing to match my, I guess my boldness, my tenacity. And there are a lot of people out there who don't match that, especially. And also in, in the in, in the women's world right now. Like, there are a lot of women who are a lot more timid than, than me, I'm not a timid woman by any means. Sarah, you are not a timid woman by any means. But there are a lot of women out there who still remained, you know, are like that. And don't get me wrong. There are a lot of men who are timid, but there are less men who are and more who are willing to stand up and say, Nope, not going to do it that way. Let's talk about how we can do it a different way. That's just, you know, and I'm happy to see that the world is changing. And I'm going off on a complete tangent, but I'm in the business world, that's just how it's been. And so I've, you know, again, I already see what my issues are going to be. And I hope that other managers out there are willing to when you work with them, that they're open to seeing that they're open to understanding they're open. So that kind of leads me into my next question with you, you know, what are some of the areas that you focus specifically on when you go in? Do you do you do start off with speech, do you start out or doing a you know, talking points do you go in And coach large teams, how do you engage and work with companies?

Sara Hanaway 25:04

That's a really great question. And you have so many good nuggets in what you just did. So I'm gonna go off those actually wasn't a bad tangent there, it's perfect. Um, so when I work with a company, it all starts, like most of us do with an intake form and understanding what your needs are, or your team's needs are. So there's a, there's a process behind that chatting with you. And then I share up what are the what I think are the best ways to go. But the managers I work with, or the directors or the the leaders know their team the best. So I'll give an example. I just did a presentation to a team. They're going their company's going through a merger. And their leader reached out to me because she wanted to make sure they were taking care of themselves. Because we get so bogged down in the day to day she's like, this is a big change. I know, there's worry, could you come in? And as we did the intake form, I told her, I said, Well, you know, what would be ideal is to do like a two hour workshop with your team around change. And she's the expert of her team. And she's like, my team is really quiet. And we're going to do this virtual. And change is a heavy topic. And, and so I, as much as I want to do a workshop, I don't think that'll work. Can you come in and just do a talk, I said, What if I come in and present to the team, but I do a worksheet before, so they have pre work. So a lot of the exercises we would have been doing as a group was in that pre work so that they could prime themselves for change. And we ended up having a it actually was an hour and a half, long discussion. And we had a great discussion afterwards. But it was all about how they manage through change. So my two areas of focus when I work with businesses are either on change, whether it's in this instance, how you manage through change, or if your team rolls out a lot of things that change the work that your company does. So this team actually had that as well. So ironically, their questions at the end was the other part of the content, which is, hey, I have to roll out this change to this team, what do I do so we spent some time on that, as well, because those are two different things like how you manage your own change versus how you manage it with others. And then the other big thing I really work on and that I'm very passionate with is helping managers move from doers to leaders. So as you were talking, there were two two stories that jumped into my head, when I first became a leader of a team and I had people be a doer is a producer, you get stuff done. And all the skills you use as a doer, you still need as a leader, you just have to shift how you use them. So instead of solving all the problems, you're helping your team learn to solve the problems. So you're helping your team get those critical skills that you learned when you were a doer so that they can build up their skills. But when I first started delegating, and I share this when I when I talk or coach, teams, I did not know how to delegate, I when I first delegated I did exactly what you were talking about Leon, this is how I want you to do it. This is the order Bubble bubble. That is not how you delegate, you don't tell them how to do that you give them this is the end result I need. And for me, a lot of times I couldn't articulate what the end result was because I never had to do that. Because before I just got the assignment, I figured it out in my head and not to explain it. So my team would come back to me and I'm like, well, that's not what I want. And of course, they spent hours on something they're like, that's not what you wanted. And so I had to learn how to do all that. So we spend a little bit of time on delegation, I told and I'm still not always good at it, I have to remind myself that it doesn't have to be the way I do it it, we just need to have the end result. And the other thing you said that I coach people on is feedback. So one of the things that I hear a lot, especially from HR professionals, and I get it because they're like because even the directors in the C suite don't know how to do this is how do you give people feedback. And the secret is it has to be actionable feedback. And the other secret I talk about is two things. Feedback is subjective. What Leann tells you to do, and you move to a different manager, they're going to tell you the exact opposite. Because it's subjective. Feedback is not fact i to enjoy feedback, but I have learned what to take and what to throw out. Be like, Yes, here it is. But what I find is most managers don't give actionable feedback. They'll say something like, You know what? Your I'll use an example for me If you're intimidating, okay, what does that mean? Right? What am I supposed to do with that, and this manager just said, you need to stop intimidating people. That does not help me that does not give me anything. But I am a person who likes to figure things out. Because the last thing I want to do is intimidate people. That is not how I want to come across. Well, I started observing my own behavior. And I realized what it was, in every meeting, we were in, I talked first, right? I spoke up, and then people didn't feel comfortable. So then I just learned to, I'm not going to speak right away, I'm going to let others talk. Now, when it was something controversial, the team would look at me to then bring it up because they didn't feel comfortable. And that that was not the same thing. And so then I learned, but that wasn't actionable feedback, right? That that that manager gave me, or for 10 years of my career at Harley, I had a boss who would do performance reviews, and all he would do is give me a thumbs up and go keep going. How does this help me? I mean, great. I'm assuming I'm doing a good job. But right. I'm human I, I even know. Like, I think my way is right. I know that's not the right thing. I can list out the mistakes I make, because I'm pretty critical of myself. And so we spend a lot of time on feedback exercises, and what is actionable feedback? And how do you not do the sandwich method, which is, you're really good, but no, so I actually invented something when I was at Harley, because no one taught me how to do this a process that I have carried throughout my entire career that as a matter of fact, BRP started using it and sharing it with their managers, other managers at Harley did is I created the standard form process that I use with employees. And it made it a dialogue, I actually asked them to tell me what they thought they did well on where they're where they met or exceeded expectations, because those were the words we use to see where they're at. So we could have a dialogue. So if an employee said, like, seated here, and I know the HR criteria, or the company criteria for exceeds, didn't meet, that we could have a conversation upfront going, Hey, you did great on that. But here's what exceeds means. And if you're looking to get exceeds, here's the things that we need to do. That's actionable feedback. So for me, what I do is I work with teams, so I can do workshops, I can come in and present. Or I can work individually. With a team. I like workshops, just because you can get other managers, you can hear different things, but I do a level. But that was a very long winded answer to your question. But

Leighann Lovely 32:45

so here's so i. So I first day on the job a long time ago, I and it probably wasn't the first day I met a new salesperson. And this was I was early in my career and she walked up to me, she introduced herself. And then she went on to say, a lot of people struggle working with me because they don't like me have a roof over what? Okay. She then proceeded to say sometimes I come off as being harsh. Sometimes I when I speak, I do not mean to. And I went Oh, okay. Now I was really early in my career. I had no idea what that meant. As I continued to work with her, I thought numerous times, wow, that was really harsh. Like, wow, that was really brief. And I went Wait a second. But she told me, she warned me of this, that there may be times where and that she's not meaning two years later, what I realized was that she was completely self aware that she sometimes rubbed people the wrong way. But that she wasn't fully sure how to change that. Or why? Because nobody had really sat down with her and been like, well, this is why you come off as being brass. You are very, she was also a very strong, very driven, very successful woman. Point blank sheet. I learned from every time I would go into it. She was a salesperson, every time I would go into a meeting with her. She would walk out practically with the sale and I was just like, wow, this woman is she was into this. She's still she's still brilliant. She's still around talking in terms of like she's not she's absolutely brilliant. She's self aware of the fact that when she's just having normal conversation that she does come off as being brass. She's and because of that when she meets new people, especially in the business world that she's going to work with on a regular basis. She lets people know like I'm not i That's not how I mean to come across and I'm actively working on trying to get better Read it. Okay, perfect. So her and I never had a problem, even when I was, you know, really young in my career, because she had told me, and I was like, all right. But other people were like, I'm not working with her. She's She's, she's mean. And I'm like, not really not mean, she's just blunt. And I realized that I might, my dad used to always say, You're horrible at politics, you're horrible at getting long at work, you're a bull in a china shop, you know, you got to get better at it. And I'm like, I don't know how. I'm just me. Because I've always just been one of those people, like, you know, I'm the person that, you know, if you're standing in a group of people, and somebody's got their fly down, I'm gonna look and go, Zip up your fly, and everybody else is like Google, like, you just embarrassed him? Well, wouldn't it be more embarrassing for him to stand with his fly open than just tell them really quick, hey, Zip up your fly. But there are people who will stand in that circle and never say it. I'm just the person who's like, I'll say what needs to be said, regardless of whether it needs to be said, like, that's just always been my personality. And so anyways, when you were speaking, you know, that was one thing that came to mind is that you can, you can have a variety of different personalities. But if you are aware of it, and you address it, and you, so you being intimidating, you know, you became aware of it, you addressed it, and you figure it out how to. And that's, I think the that's, that's the only thing that matters is that and then there are other people who were like, Well, okay, I'm aware of it, but they never actively try to make a change for it. And that's where the problem lies. Like, this woman knew it, actively tried to figure out well, how do I how do I don't know exactly what I'm doing? She's just, you know, she was just blonde. And that's where people shine? Is that when they're willing to accept that? Yes. And it has nothing to do with whether or not she really, let's say that she really wasn't an asshole. It has nothing to do whether or not she really is or isn't it has to do with the world? And how they perceive if she is because her manager may have may have thought, oh, no, she's not brass at all. She's the greatest person in the world. She's selling everything. And yes, she was. It's it only comes down to how everybody else in the world perceives the situation, which is why you said feedback is subjective. And that's also why it comes down to do you have a good management team? If you have a manager who perceives everybody as being just amazing and great, your manager who's like, yeah, just thumbs up, keep doing what you're doing? Well, that's not that's not gonna help you either. Because now you've gotten the perception that you're doing absolutely everything great. And then if somebody else comes to you and says, Yeah, you really need to stop doing this. You're gonna go, Yeah, but my manager told me that I'm doing everything awesome. So just simply saying, Hey, you're doing everything great is not doing you any favors. And there are managers out there that do that, too. But that also comes down to conflict, right? How do I give feedback, especially if that feedback is negative? And I think that's one of the one of the probably biggest conversations that's happening within organizations right now is conflict management and how to provide that feedback. Especially if it's negative.

Sara Hanaway 38:37

Yeah, and for me, I think words have power. Absolutely. And, and I'm not always good at it. And so I try not to say negative feedback. I try to say constructive feedback, or when I'm talking to my team or others, I'm like, What are opportunities for you? And one of the things that I tried really hard and, and this was more towards the end of my career, because I'm very driven. I can be forceful. People would describe me as tough but fair. I tone police myself, because I can hear my own tone, though. I get a little worried about that. Because sometimes my tone isn't that bad. But it's, that'll get me down a rabbit hole. So

Leighann Lovely 39:23

my tone to my husband yells at me all the time. He's like, why are you preaching at me? And I'm like, am I and then I'll go all right. Yeah. Sorry.

Sara Hanaway 39:33

Yeah. So when I wanted to set up is an environment where people felt safe making mistakes. I mean, think about it as a human being. We don't like making mistakes. We don't like walking into our boss's office saying I screwed up. screw ups happen. That's how we learn. That's how we grow. I mean, my accident taught me that yes, it was an accident, but I mean, talk about luck. lots of mistakes happening along the way as you learn my limits, like what I can and cannot do. And so I wanted my team. So I started asking a question which made them feel very uncomfortable, which was how did you fail? And so I'd ask it, the way our reviews happen was every quarter. So how did you fail this quarter? And they're like, You really want me to tell you that? I'm like, it's not going in your permanent record. And yes, I want you and all of a sudden, our it ended up not being every quarter, it ended up being they were comfortable saying, here's where I screwed up. Here's where I need help. Here's what I learned. And then we didn't repeat, though those types of and they started to self learn, which also helped then make the conversations constructive. I'm a huge fan of crucial conversations. So you start with the heart, and you start with mutual purpose. So if you're not going in with the understanding that you're doing this to help the other person grow, then you don't have mutual understanding. If you're going in with I need them to do this in order to produce results for the company. That's not mutual purpose. mutual purpose is we want to create an environment where people feel engaged, productive, and balanced. Right. Okay, yes, you still need to produce results. But so that is difficult to do. And I've also worked with people who are like, you only put all the negative in all the constructive? And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, we accentuate their strengths. And then we tell them the things they need to work on. And 98% of the time, the things they need to work on, are their strengths, it's when they're not operating in their strengths, right?

Leighann Lovely 41:44

Well, and you said something that companies is if companies are reaching out to you, or reaching out to, you know, a training, I would hope that they have the right goal in mind. Because if, if they're reaching out to you just for Well, let's, you know, have them have the employees go through this program, and if they're only for the company, and not for the employees, then there's a there's a disconnect, and they're never going to have a long term workforce, they're going to continue to have turnover. First of all, you know, and and the other thing is, is that any company who does not understand that healthy, happy employees produce higher quality, more results, is not going to survive in today's world, there is just not there has been a massive, massive shift. And this shift was happening, it's just been, you know, as everybody knows, the shift now just got compressed into a shorter period of time, because of what happened with the pandemic. And now with mental health being talked about, and people talking about the fact that they're struggling, and so many people, we all now have a new relationship with alcohol. And so more people, you You laugh, but it's not with a pandemic. I mean, it's, it's so many people started drinking more than they used to started, you know. So there's a lot more out there, people out there going, Yeah, I need help. Like, I need to have a full life wellness, and that needs to, to, you know, start with my family and go in and go beyond that into my work. And I need to have full life wellness, and I can't be unhappy at home. And then I go to this volatile environment, I need to have an employer who actually cares about my my well being, and not working me to the point where I'm so exhausted that I'm becoming unhealthy. And it's interesting because I had spoken to, you know, spoke with somebody else and actually multiple people you speak to, you know, chiropractor, chiropractors or wellness coaches, wellness, you know, wellness facilities, people who are just on the outside of doctors, right? That work on preventative medicine, all of them, all of them say the same thing. That if you are sitting in a fight situation, especially if you're you know, at work, you're constantly stressed out, you're you are never allowing your body to heal. And you will only continue to go down because it's all connected to your nervous system. And I'm not a doctor, so I could be saying this wrong. But you know, my chiropractor says the same thing. I've spoken with somebody else who, you know, was an engineer, and it's all the same thing. If you're constantly in the fight mode, which is where you would be if you're, if you're going to a job you hate every single day, and you're miserable and you come home and you're miserable. Your body is that's where it's sitting, it's sitting in that fight survival mode, which means that you're never actually going to bed and fully healing, which means you're waking up exhausted, which means that you're going to work exhausted, which means you're not producing fully, which means it's just a negative cycle. So for an employer to not understand that healthy, happy environment, healthy, happy employees produce better quality, better results, is just it's I wouldn't understand why a company wouldn't invest in the proper things for their employees. If you would have asked me 10 years ago, I would have gone well, aren't they doing everything? Again? I mean, it's not like they're responsible for making sure that they're happy at work. Maybe

Sara Hanaway 45:58

Yeah, but so I think a lot of companies say, so I heard this, at both of the big companies, I worked at Hurley MBRP people our competitive advantage, but even why I worked there, I'm like, if people are your competitive advantage, then you need to invest in them. Right. And the first thing to go when you have budget cuts are things you know, or you have to apply to the stakeholders. And, you know, I worked for companies that were on the stock market. And even though they say the stakeholders, we're not making decisions that way. We're making decisions that way. I mean, I run my own business, now I'm making business decisions based on, you know, some things that I'm like, Oh, I kind of get it now, why you might have made that decision. But it's the first thing that gets cut is the people stuff, or the other thing that happens, which just happened on the talk with the team with the merger, is because you're so busy producing, you feel guilty, taking that two hours out of a team meeting, to do something else. But you know, it produces results, you know, your team feels better. But you have to get through that. And another team I talked to was my former team at Hurley that I was practicing with, they knew right when I started my company, they got to me the first group that I came to present to, so they were full on board. But the thing that they wanted help with is they're a team that constantly has a standard process, but changes get thrown at them. And that's not going to change while they're trying to fix it up the food chain, those changes are going to happen. And she wanted her team to be able to how can they react to that better, because it's gonna keep happening. And I want my team to feel good. I want my team to know it's okay. When that happens. Shut your computer down, go for a walk. I don't care what you need to do. And then come back to it. So I think we're slowly getting there where where people are realizing well being, I think I think the pandemic helped with that where we all had this moment. I forget the name now. brain, brain fog is coming into my head, but the the produce produce produce mentality, the syndrome that we have that we all have, you have to unlearn that. So to the story you were talking about, you're you're miserable at work, you keep going. That's a little what happened to me in 2020 when the pandemic hit is I loved the people I worked with. I was great at my marketing job. I enjoyed doing that. I enjoyed the challenge. But every day I went to work. I was like, what, what's going on? And my therapist said the best thing and she was like, I was like, I want to quit just like you can't quit today. I was like, but I want to quit and she's like, You can't quit today, sir, you have to do the work. And the thing that I see, and I get a lot when I when I talk about a course or a program, if you work with me one on one, I'm like, Well, this is going to take six weeks or this is going to take eight weeks and I had a woman go eight weeks. And I'm like, you have to unlearn a lot in order for the change to take. So what therapist was working with me is I was one of those people who believed that my success came from my achievements. And I had to unlearn all that. I don't believe that anymore. And I was slowly unlearning that already at that point. But I was still at this. If I'm not in a big fortune 500 company, I'm not performing all of this kind of stuff. And we had to undo all of that. And she's like, that's why you can't quit. Because if we don't solve that problem first with my therapist, and this was therapy work versus a coach work, right, completely different. And we worked on it for nine months. And then I came to her with my plan and she's like you can quit now. And the reason I shared that is it takes work correct. So even having me in for a talk is not going to solve it right takes work, right.

Leighann Lovely 50:09

And we get so set in what our own brain believes to be true. Because of years and years and years and years of, of habit, and the idea that you can only be happy if you are this prestigious person working at a prestigious company doing this prestigious job. That is, that is the mind set of many people. But happiness, I've come to realize is doing the thing that I want to do, and being healthy and happy with my family. And that is for me to the thing that I want to do is for me to design. Yep, that looks different to absolutely everybody, if I want to go work at a fortune 500 company, and that's my passion. Great. But if my passion is working at Kwik Trip, great, I'll go work at Kwik Trip, my passion is owning my own business, and all the stress that goes with it. Great for whoever. But it all starts with being healthy in in the head first. And body, which and I think so many people get lost in the idea that there's this cookie cutter, perfect person or perfect, like design of what success is. Like there is there isn't success is different for absolutely everybody. And you will hear and talk to people who have millions and millions of dollars who have gotten to the top tippy, tippy top of owning, you know, billion dollar companies. And they'll go I thought once I had gotten here, I would understand what true success is. And it was just emptiness. And it's like, yeah, because true success has nothing to do with the letters you climb. And so many people are now realizing that because it doesn't, it's all it's it's all about your happiness and not accomplishments. And we're coming to time, I wish that we could continue to talk about this. But we we are absolutely coming to time. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. Do you have any final thoughts on that, though, before I cut you off?

Sara Hanaway 52:30

Yeah. So I would just say to that, that's what I do. When I the chunk of working individual coaching with people is helping him change the stories that they have in their head, figuring out what is actual fact. And what are just stories that you've learned or done, and then rewriting that story of what you want to define. And then giving them the skills when everybody else in the stories they hear is the exact opposite. And you said it brilliantly. What might work for you, Leanne isn't going to work for me, because when I left BRP, one of the things I said as I said, I don't know if I want this pace anymore. And the president of the company is like I love this pace. I said that's great. And that's great for you just might not be great for me anymore. And there's nothing wrong with that. And Keven agreed, he's like, I concur. There's nothing wrong with that. So you have to figure out for you, right? What's you? And that's what I help people do.

Leighann Lovely 53:29

And that's absolutely awesome. Because it is truly the lies that we tell herself, that we need to learn how to stop telling in order to find success and having somebody help us do that. It's so much less lonely. Yes. So the question of the season, what do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three plus years?

Sara Hanaway 53:56

I'm going to answer this in what I hope will happen. I'm a grounded optimist, which just means that through my life experience, I know we can get through a lot. And we'll come around the other side. What I'm seeing right now is the pendulum swinging all the way the other way. And what I mean by that is when change is about to happen transfer more transformational change, which is what happened when we went through the pandemic, when we all learned we could work from home. We could process some people prospered and some didn't. Some people are still better in the office, some work, all of that. But when you go through transformational change, you get forces that hit each other. And that's what we're seeing now. We're seeing, we're seeing the little bit of a generational shift, but we're also seeing people who've always done work the way they've always done work being questioned and not understanding why everybody else It doesn't work that way, even though we just did it for two and a half plus years. And it's because that is a transformational change in their mind. So I think we are on the cusp of another transformational change, I think what will happen in the history books, my hope is a couple of things. One, we all learn to slow down. And that we will continue to focus on that slow down and continue to see what works for ourselves, and our well being, too. I think mental health is going to take an uptick and be more prominent. I'm very proud of you for sharing your story. I used to not talk about my accident. And I do now because I think and I used to not tell people I'm in therapy, I tell everyone on therapy, because I think mental health is important, I hope and pray that our insurances get better. So more people, I have two friends who can't get into a counselor right now, because there's we're at a loss for them, right. So I think that'll go on up tip, I think we'll see more and more people talking about mental health, and balancing this need to produce and well being. And I think that we're going to continue to see quiet coding, until people really put the walk with the talk, which is if you really believe people are your asset, then you need to invest in people, you have to invest in people as much as you invest in your product. So that's my hope, for that we'll start seeing will continue to see this shift that it will continue. And the pendulum will slowly come back and we'll find some sort of balance. I think it'll swing the other way. And then, and we'll find balance. But that's my hope over the next three years is that's what we learned. We learned that there are multiple ways that people can work. And there's multiple ways that we can produce in society, and that we all need to be healthy and well, in order to be active participants in this world we live in.

Leighann Lovely 57:10

That was amazing. Extremely, I got goosebumps, because I 100%. Agree. Very well said, if somebody wanted to, excuse me, if somebody wanted to reach out to Sarah, how would they go about doing that to learn more about, you know, how to engage you for your services, and that kind of stuff.

Sara Hanaway 57:31

You can reach out to me at Sarah hanaway.com That's my website and there's contact information. There's also all my social media handles. Most of them are like Sarah hanaway official. So you can find me on the social media as well, but my website is the best place.

Leighann Lovely 57:48

Excellent. Sarah, this has been such an awesome conversation. I appreciate it so much.

Sara Hanaway 57:53

I loved every minute of it. You made it so easy and fun. It was just it was great.

Leighann Lovely 57:58

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, work, managers, learn, team, change, talk, actionable feedback, years, happen, day, business, produce, company, triumph, pandemic, realize, sarah, end result, feedback

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Lisa Carlin is a Strategic Execution Specialists whom works within organizations to help mentor her clients through transformational change. She has a 96% success rate with the clients that she works with. She has a global reach with the clients that she works with and has a true desire and passion to help those that she works with. Lisa has an amazing background and understanding for people, this is a great addition to Let’s Talk HR.

Contact Lisa –

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/lisacarlin

Website – futurebuildersgroup.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Lisa Carlin 02:25

Thank you, Leighann, for having me here. I'm really excited to chat to you today.

Leighann Lovely 02:29

So you are coming to me from a 15 hour difference in in time because you are halfway around the world writes, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself where you're from and what you do.

Lisa Carlin 02:45

Sure Leighann Aussies, like to like to joke with the with the eanx that were in the future, we're ahead. Because it's, it's Thursday morning here when it's a Wednesday afternoon for you. And so. So, there you go. So I actually started out in Cape Town, South Africa. So at the bottom of southernmost tip of Africa, that's where I grew up. And I grew up in the apartheid era. And that has actually sort of framed that guilt that's associated with being a white, South African and apartheid age, has actually framed who I am, and and what I do. So because I was part of a in my teenage years, and then through to university, part of a multicultural organization. And we used to, you know, for me, it's all about the respect of people. And that's what we didn't have in society in respect of different people. And then that organization was banned by their Patek government when they declared a state of emergency on anything that they're considered disruptive to the regime. And so that whole experience of, you know, I remember going to university and, and opening up the newsletter. And one of my colleagues, Paul, who was one of our friends in the in the group was arrested. And at the time you were arrested without a trial. And without any, you could be detained indefinitely. And we never found out what happened to him. And to this day, I don't know what happened to him. And, you know, it was just like, all of a sudden, these people who were there were just gone. And so, and Paul was a person of color, which made it even worse, you know? So, so for me, I have a very strong value about respectful people and giving people a voice. And that's what it's all about what I do. So I moved. I worked for Accenture for a while I then worked, went to the US and worked for McKinsey. I came to Australia, I'm gonna cut a very long story short, and I do love it here, and the lifestyle in Sydney, and the weather. And, and I studied here again and then I, I, in 1989 started my own business. And I've, I've put all the learnings I've had together into implementing change and executing strategies in organizations through like large scale programs of improving sales, improving customer service, improving, you know, performance in business, all of those sorts of things. And in the last few years, I've started doing more mentoring more and more over the years doing more and more mentoring of the executives and the leaders and the teams rather than doing the work on the ground myself. And because what I'm trying to do is, is create a massive improvement in the success rates of transformation. And, and I believe it can be done in this Win Win kind of way. So the problem is that, you know, you look at McKinsey's research, and they say 70% of, of transformations fail, and when I use the word transformation very loosely, so it could be any kind of change in organizations, and, and Harvard Business Review last year cited that 78% of these organizational initiatives fail. And so I know, it's crazy.

Leighann Lovely 06:38

Why. So why do you think that is?

Lisa Carlin 06:44

So I've looked at the reasons and they give lots, you know, the different studies will show lots of reasons, and they'll show reasons, like, you know, disagreement, you know, at the executive level around what should be done, they'll, they'll show reasons, like I said, boils down to people, they'll show reasons, like, ran over budget, hugely under done in the timeframe. But when you boil a lot of those reasons down, they're all to people, right? Because they're all because of people because if you don't implement something within budget, it's because it's because of people, if you don't implement something within time, it's because people aren't reaching agreements on things. And that's what I found to be the biggest issue. So I read the research, and I've experienced it on the ground. And I can see that it's because people are not on the same page about things. And so, so this is where my passion is, is around. And I've done over 50 transformations, I've got to clear failures. And so that's 96% in the success rate, so I feel very proud of that. And I want to spread this, and that's what my mission is now because it's a win win win, right? It's a win for the organization in terms of my approach, it's because they're getting the performance lift from these initiatives. It's a win for the people who are delivering the change, because their careers just, you know, multiply out amazingly after this and flourish. And it's a win for the rest of the people in the organization because it gives them a voice. And because that is the way that i i Is that is my approach is just is around that is around giving people in the organization, a voice which creates that momentum for these initiatives, and then you don't land up with being stuck. Right.

Leighann Lovely 08:37

That's amazing. And so, let me there's a lot for me to touch on here. So let me start with one. Where were you started? Where you grew up? That Wow. I mean, there's there's so much that I could so many questions that I could ask about that. How long were you? How long were you there? And when did you move? Your next move was to the US or? Yes, yes. Okay. And at what age did you move to the US?

Lisa Carlin 09:14

So I moved to the US in my 20s 1994 which was an interesting year because that was the year Mandela came to power.

Leighann Lovely 09:24

So wow, so you had your entire childhood growing up in an environment that was very almost unknown difficult and, and lost friends to unknown places. While we I mean, being arrested for and just scooped up and never to be seen again? Because it might in my right.

Lisa Carlin 09:56

Yeah, like I I remember clearly where I was. I was and I was sitting in the university cafeteria. And I opened the newsletter. And then Paul's face was, and yeah, and I never saw him again. So, and then I had this pressure from my family to not be involved in any, anything that could be considered anti apartheid because feminists, you know, you've got blacklisted and they will, you know, right, people were arrested. So they I remember, my mother was so concerned at one stage, she went to go talk to my school principal, to try and unravel me from and I wasn't doing anything violent, or all we were doing, it was a multicultural, it was a cultural focus,

Leighann Lovely 10:47

right? Yeah. So that obviously has, like you said, shaped your beliefs and the desire to help and change the way that people view and see. Society, I mean, the making things more inclusive and accepting, and I'm not trying to talk for you. But I can only imagine what it would be. I don't want to say what it would be like, because I can't imagine what it would be like, but I can only imagine the influence in which that would have on not only a young person, but also somebody who is now you know, in, in university growing up and trying to make their way and trying to understand what is transpiring that has now shaped, you know, as you're in your 20s, now, shaping your view of the world and now entering into the US going into a completely different culture. And trying to make your way through through that, right. I mean, in the US has a completely different world, we're chaotic in a completely different way. I mean, I guess you could say, right, it's,

Lisa Carlin 12:09

Yeah, and I had an amazing experience there. And working for McKinsey was just, you know, just an amazing experience. And just such a huge, a huge culture shock, you know, right and going from, you know, yeah, just, you know, some days you'd see there would be a riot or one of those armored vehicles would be enter the, you know, the white suburbs, because we grew up in different, you know, I couldn't even the friends that I met, at one stage, I was doing Junior Achievement, which is American Junior program, entrepreneurial program for high school students, and, again, multiracial. So very few things growing up that you could do that were multiracial, and I love diversity of people, I find that fascinating. And so I guess, to go for anything, where we, you know, I could just learn and meet different people. And we couldn't go to restaurants and to movies or the beach or anything like that together, because they will segregated. And so they had kind of fought through, well, let's keep all these people of different colors separately. And it was really hard, and even visiting each other's houses were difficult, because we all lived in different areas very far from each other. So it made it all quite different. And then going from that, to the US where everything is just, yeah, just just interesting. It's just, it's so different. It's so different. And yeah, and you know, the whole consulting lifestyle is so different, you know, you get on a corporate plane and you go out or even, you know, regular plane and you go off for the day to do your work somewhere and then fly and fly it. No, it's a very, it's quite a it's an exciting life, but in a different way.

Leighann Lovely 13:56

Correct? Yeah. And again, you can say chaos in a different way. You go from one place where it's completely segregated, struggling to navigate how to I mean, you can't you can't show any political affiliation. You can't, or you know, God forbid, talk about that in public. And then you come to the US where you have people and this is in what year

Lisa Carlin 14:23

in the 90s

Leighann Lovely 14:24

in the 90s. Okay, so it's not as crazy, you know, not as crazy then. Well, you probably equally deemed as crazy then as it is now, because every year I suppose we say that, Oh, this is the craziest year, you know, but it really wasn't quite as crazy then as it is now, probably just in a different way. But yeah, absolute culture shock. Now you have, I mean, we are still some cities are extremely segregated. Others are not at all what city did you did you move to again?

Lisa Carlin 14:56

Well, here's the thing. It was Atlanta. So that's a whole interesting story in it. So, okay, yeah, yeah. So it was still then fairly conservative. And so yeah, yeah. And in fact, more conservative than the environment that I grew up in, funnily enough, because I grew up in a very liberal family and a very liberal community. Right. So that was again, a shock

Leighann Lovely 15:20

Very interesting. Very interesting. Okay. So now, all right, so I've focused on that now you have now lived in the US, you've had some great experiences at some amazing companies, and then you make your way to Australia. When did you do that? And why and you talk about the weather. I wish that I knew what the weather there felt like I've never been, but when did you make that move? And, you know, you opened your business, you said the year 1999? Yes. Okay. So you are now the co founder and director of future builders group, where you facilitate workshop, mentor CEOs, and much more, you opened that business in 1999. And did you open it after you had arrived to Australia,

Lisa Carlin 16:15

I did my MBA, I worked for a year and a half for a culture change organization. And then I started working on my own. So it was all very, it was quick two years in the US to two years MBA full time that, so, so what, and then I worked on my own. And then 10 years ago, we found that the future builders brand as a whole, there's so many as you nollie, and so many independent consultants out there, and it gets kind of lonely sometimes, especially when you've been in a big consultancy, and you know, what the resources are like, and that, you know, and the learning that you can have from other people. So we created the future builders brand, which is an umbrella for a group of independent law parties. It's a boutique organization for independent organizational development specialists, basically. So and that's been lovely, and I've got amazing colleagues. So the whole idea is that we can do work that we enjoy doing, and not worry about having to get people utilized on to jobs, because, you know, there's no permanent employees. So the objectives are more aligned with the clients, you know, you're there to do the client work, right. So that's, that's what we did. And then I've been working at this. And now I just feel like, I want to make more of an impact. It's not enough just to do one or two or three or four jobs a year with clients or mentor, you know, small handful. I want to make more of an impact. And that's why I founded turbocharge your transformation, membership.

Leighann Lovely 17:51

So tell me in something you said, entrepreneurship is the loneliest place in the world. By by all means, you didn't say that. But you had made a comment about entrepreneurship can be can be lonely. And I just want to say that for my audience. entrepreneurship can be the loneliest place in the world, because you are or you're on your own. So having a group something like you would just kind of said, it's okay to be an independent, but find your people work with your people. And I love I love that I you know, it's a group of you said independence that we're in now, tell me about this most recent turbo charge, say that again, turbocharge your transformation, turbocharged transformation, I want to say so sorry, go ahead. I said, I want to hear about this.

Lisa Carlin 18:41

So I was actually quite excited. Because last week, when I typed in turbocharger transformation, we came up top in the Google search. That's how that happened. So it's an online academy. And there's, you know, since COVID, that's probably been the biggest change in terms of people just moving to do things digitally, that they didn't do before. So things like shopping and hybrid work and online learning. And so And the amazing thing is that the world has become a smaller place. So the entrepreneurs listening to this, you know, you can have, you know, build relationships with people across the ocean, like Leanne and I are talking today. It's so it's so easy. And it's so interesting, because you learn, it just gives you different ideas and perspective on things. And, you know, we now have a worldwide marketplace where things were many things. So that global, you know, global cohorts become more important. So what this Learning Academy is, is it's for professionals who are delivering projects, and any kind of change. And so, you know, small businesses will be doing that because they focused on growth, so they need to change so The terminology is a bit different, because entrepreneurs will think about, you know, how am I going to get growth in this business? How am I going to get my startup established? How am I going to, you know, build my audience and my my customers and get product market fit. And then and then go from there. larger organizations who've got that fit, who are more much more mature at different stages. And I've got a model that sort of looks at the pathway for for success for transformation success. And the top of the five at the top of the triangle is this unicorn middle piece, which is, you know, the Nirvana where we all want to get to where everything's in perfect fit, right. And so and so people will be at different stages there. But they're all having to implement projects to deliver this growth. And that's what the turbocharger transformation is about, is about how do you turbocharged those projects, those initiatives to be able to implement things faster? And more successfully? And it's all yeah, sorry, go? Have you seen that I'm gonna keep talking over and not even give you a chance to write the word and because I'm so excited,

Leighann Lovely 21:07

And this is what we You had mentioned before, when I when I asked you why, why do other programs, programs not succeed, and you said people, and the people are the ones who are getting away of the amount of time it takes, possibly the amount of money that it takes. So you've implemented a program that will allow it to work faster, more efficiently, so that we're not wasting time on decision making on? And that's what it sounds like, am I correct?

Lisa Carlin 21:41

Exactly. So it's all through a cultural behavioral lens. So it's, it's like a mixture between a project management program and a change management program and a behavioral program? Because

Leighann Lovely 21:57

So do you do some type of like assessments upfront to look at the behavioral piece first to understand or is that something that's built in?

Lisa Carlin 22:08

So I have an assessment called the transformation success score. And that's actually free. And it's on my website, in fact, right at the bottom of our homepage, so WWW dot future builders group.com. And the transformation success score measures the confidence measures your confidence against a number of different dimensions of execution. Right? So how do you do the design of what you what you know, of what you plan in, which is basically a strategic lens? How do you plan out things? You know, how do you influence people, you know, like leaders, or if you're in a large businesses will be how do you influence your leaders, in a in a, if you're in a smaller business, you might have a board of directors that you've got to influence whoever you know, influence your people. So it's all of those sorts of insights measures that, and then you get a percentage score. And then you can do it along the along the way on the program. So you know, after sort of a few months, or six months, and it's all about confidence, it's self assessment, and it measures your confidence, because that is that most, that is the biggest factor that is going to determine people's effectiveness, everything else, you know, you can learn all of these things. And that's what this program teaches. And then it's how confident are you to, to do these things. And I believe measurement is so important, because then it just gives you absolute clarity. So at the beginning, and then along the way, and it's a membership. So it's not one of these one hit wonders, where you go off and do a learning program, and then you forget everything afterwards. It's a membership. So you come in. So every month is a different topic. Our topic this month is turbocharged with AI. And last month, that was culture friendly implementation. So every month is different. And then we have a masterclass

Leighann Lovely 23:58

and up, do people get to write, I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start putting my finger up. So do people get to, like, choose like, yes, I want to participate in this one? Or is it just here are the topics that we're going to cover throughout, you know, the next 12 months or you know, are there different? And again, every single one that you listed there is is wildly one interesting and important. Ai right now is on everybody's mind. Anywhere everywhere you go, it doesn't matter. You walk into a room and you hear somebody talking about oh, AI GP chat or whatever it might be, you know, AI, you know, I have an AI tool that I use in my business. So that's wildly important. So how do you guess how do you get are these live trainings are these how do they go through the program?

Lisa Carlin 25:00

Great questions. So every month is a different topic. And you can attend live zoom sessions, and they timed for the US audience as well as Australia. So it's, so if you're in Europe zone, it people would then they would participate asynchronously. Right? Okay. Because if all the sessions are recorded, so you have a one hour masterclass? Well, first you get your playbook. So every hour every month is a playbook. And it's an editable PowerPoint. So I give out my IP for people to use, they, they'll always templates in there that they can use straight away for planning their projects for, you know, checklists for things awkward, like easy to use one pages, it's all in PowerPoint, one page templates. And then, and then, so they get that two weeks before the master class, they do the master class, then they've got two weeks to try out the templates and have a think, right, and they can watch the recording again, if they want, and they can send me their questions. Or they can then come to a group coaching session that I have on zoom the fortnight later and ask their questions, and I just do it in a group setting.

Leighann Lovely 26:09

That's awesome. And I'm thinking, you know, the difference, you know, in time, so you're out? Yeah, I was gonna make a bad joke. So are you up at two o'clock in the morning with the US people? No, I'm bad. I'm sorry. I just I love I love this, this whole time difference thing, it's insane that you are literally in the future. Okay, bad joke. So, so each so one month that everybody has one month to digest all of this information, and then move on to the next topic. And then they have a month to go through and digest the next information. And they're able to, I'm assuming that you get emailed in, you know, email questions you get, you know, from other time zones, and, and that type of thing.

Lisa Carlin 26:58

Exactly. So that the reason why I ask people to email me questions, if they want to, is because they may not be able to make the session, right? Or, because some of these things are quite sensitive that people are doing and they don't want people to know other people to know that they're, you know, outsiders to know their strategies, or the fact that they're having a problem influencing their boss to go forward on a particular project. And they want to know, techniques, you know, practicals are very practical. So they give me the question. So one girl, one woman's gave me a question about because I've got a free newsletter as well. It's also called turbocharge your transformation, and it's on LinkedIn. And I get people to do the same, I get them send me questions, because and then in the newsletter, there was the Scott woman, and I called her Lucy, but it wasn't Lucy. And Lucy was having trouble with, you know, all the stakeholders in a very siloed culture. And so I could give the advice, I gave her advice to her in the newsletter. And I can do that I do that with the with the group coaching sessions. And nobody knows who's asked the question, right. And so when I change the name of the person, or you know, I just don't give that too much. People don't know who's and that the amazing thing is you look at it that Leone listen, and it could be you,

Leighann Lovely 28:14

right? What, if one person is asking a question, it is likely that somebody else in the world has that same question or is experiencing the same thing, because it's typically something that is happening at somebody else's organization is happening somewhere else, or has happened, or is going to happen? At another organization. That's the whole concept of learning together, trans transforming together, or, you know, shifting our, our cultural beliefs, and, you know, kind of trying to learn how to do best practices together. And then then providing feedback to the people who are training. Those of us who need to shift our thinking, right, the only way that the only way that anything changes is for people to want to admit that they're wrong, or to admit that they need help. And then be willing to listen and hear the advice of other people. You know, I can go and you hear this all the time, I could go to a conference, I can go to a summit I can go to every single day of my life, but if I'm not willing to hear what is being said, it will do me absolutely no good. And unfortunately, there are so many people who go there that will walk in that door and gain absolutely nothing or gain it for a day. And forget it after that and never look back at notes. Never reference it back. and never try to grow beyond that for a day. And I think that we're finally meeting people like you and coaches out there. And that are making an attempt to get the masses to realize that the only way we grow is through active listening and, and intentional action and change.

Lisa Carlin 30:30

Absolutely. And then try and trying it out. And that's what they do they try it out, they actually, yeah, they do that they make that change and try these things. Right. And that's the magic of it. Because imagine if you've got to the one of the sessions is a session on planning. But for people who've done project management training, it's still from a very different approach, because this is methodology agnostic. So it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's the psychology of how you go about planning and what you do with your plan. And it's a one page template. So yeah, it's, you know, it's so exciting, because people can try it out straight away. And you asked a really, do you want to ask another question before? You ask, you asked me a really interesting question about what happens, which I didn't answer fully, which is what happens, you know, if they if they're not as interested in that month's topic, or what happens with the month before? So you're a fractional sales leader? And that's what you know, I know you do so. So you probably, you'd look at me, what might my I love mentors, I believe everyone should have a mentor in what they do. I mean, all the Olympic athletes do people need mentors and what they're doing, I was like, you say, entrepreneurship is lonely, and, and business is lonely, and being in a big corporate is even lonelier. So my I have a sales mentor. And my sales mentor said to me, Lisa, when somebody joins, so if they join in, in in August, they should only get the August session, and then they get the sessions after that you don't want to give away all your IP, of all the things that came before because it's only 99 US dollars a month this membership, right? So for $99, you're getting all of the sessions before. And I thought about it, and I thought, Well, my purpose is not with this is not money. First, my purpose with this is to make a difference in the world to the implementation success rates. I mean, they are, you know, 70 plus percent failure is unacceptable. Yeah. And with startups and smaller business, it's like 90% Plus, so it's unacceptable. And that is my mission. So I have decided against all advice to keep the rest of the IP on the site and available. So if you come in on one month, we were doing AI and for some reason you are really, really don't want to do AI. And this is, you know, it's easy for the most non techie people. But anyway, then you can and your score in planning is really low, you can then go to the planning session, and start there, there's no order each set, each topic is independent of the others.

Leighann Lovely 33:14

And as a sales professional, you are giving away the house by doing this, and I'm sure that your sales coaches told you that, that you know, when they enter in you, you charge them for going forward, not for everything they missed. But again, it's your what I will say to every person I have ever worked with, ultimately, it's your baby, it's your business, you have to do at the end of the day, what you need to do to sleep at nights. But if I put my coaching hat on, I can only help you be as successful as you will allow me to help you be if that makes sense. Absolutely. So, you know, if if somebody comes and says I want to make a million dollars, well, okay, then I'm going to be a hard line. This is how you're going to do it. You can't give, give away your products. I would say absolutely don't do that. They're going to have to stay until that product comes up through the, you know, to the next session. But it's your baby. It's your passion. It's your product, and what whatever goals you have are 100% yours and yours alone. And that's that's the difference between being an employee and being an entrepreneur, you get to call the shots. And the reason that most entrepreneurs start their business is not because they're like I want to Be A Millionaire. There are plenty of them out there that want that started because they want to be a millionaire. But most of them have a passion and have a desire to not work for somebody else, so that they have the ability to call their shots and make decisions that somebody else keeps shoving down their throat. There's, there's my

Lisa Carlin 35:25

and that's why I, you know, the clients that I mentor, I, I sometimes run sessions for them and their team, instead of a mentoring session, I'll say, come bring your team in. And we'll do purpose, right, we'll cover we'll have an hour and a half. And we'll develop a purpose statement because some of them don't have it really clear. And I think that should guide you know, whether you're a, you know, a 20 person business or a 10 person business, or 1000 person business or 120,000 person business, and I've worked for all you know, that range. If you've got a purpose statement that can guide, what you're doing, then it's authentic, because yeah, and that's why businesses have some businesses like Canva that are so mission based, it's amazing. Space, right. That's why Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 36:16

And I would say that the majority of businesses that started with a, a true purpose and passion are the businesses that have grown and thrived. The ones that started with here, I have this product that I'm not passionate about it, but I just want to go in and sell it are the ones that really struggled because they don't, they don't understand how to explain the ROI to the people, when you have a passion, a purpose, it's so much easier to be authentic. And explain here is how this is going to help you. This is why it's going to be able to make an impact on you, your business, your life. And you clearly you clearly have you have that, which means that when you talk about it, I can see you light up, I can see the smile. And that in itself is huge. Because people people know authenticity from a mile away.

Lisa Carlin 37:30

It's amazing how much energy is going Emilian like I feel, you know, more energized, and I work longer hours at the moment than I have in my entire life. And I'm loving it.

Leighann Lovely 37:44

And and if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life.

Lisa Carlin 37:49

Because I don't feel like I'm working Correct. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 37:54

Right. Yeah. Right. And, and that's, that is why that is why people like you and me do what we do and hundreds of 1000s of other people out there, because are you really working? Or are you just, you know, fulfilling, fulfilling your bucket, you know, filling up your cup. And, you know, I talked about a previous guest of mine talked about, you know, filling up that cup, if you're doing something every day that you have to constantly be battling to keep that cup full, you're probably not doing something that you should be doing. You have to, and if what you're doing is already fulfilling that and you're finding balance and you're finding that fulfillment in it, then you're in the right place. And you You mean you do you have a an amazing, it sounds like an amazing business product, people around, you know, you're the co founder. So you you have you know, a partner that I'm assuming is just as passionate.

Lisa Carlin 39:07

So I'm the co founder of future builders, which is our community, right? And then within it, I am the founder of this. So I've got as a result, I've actually got an amazing group of colleagues around me who are just, you know, are there to help and support and mentor me so I don't feel like I'm on my own at all.

Leighann Lovely 39:31

That's great. And

Lisa Carlin 39:33

I can't explain to you the the excitement that I get when these initiatives that we build the momentum in organizations, it is just and now I can do it on scale, because I can teach other people those skills and I can tell you a story a story about that. If you want to know which one do you want to cover next I, okay, well, this is an example of a business that was actually not doing well at all. And it was in a division of a big organization. And the executive manager was not happy about how the performance was going. And so he asked me to go in and bring a team and, and help them. And that meant the manager of the unit, and the team. And when I got there, I saw reports that three other consultancies had done. And they all said roughly the same thing of what this team should do. But none of the things were implemented. And the teams were the team, the manager, and the managers, second in line, were very defensive, and did not were not happy with me being there. They felt like they were over consulted, they'd had three consulting teams, you know, they just did not want a fourth. And we had very unfriendly, quite hostile people. And what we did was we we worked with them to come up with an agenda, looking at what the consultants had recommended before, which were all interestingly, very similar. And what they thought about it, and what they thought the priorities were. And we we formed a joint team, and we use the design thinking principle of CO design or working with them together in a team, blended external folks and internal folks. And the engagement and appreciation was amazing, that, you know, we were lifting their skills and how to do a diagnosis of underperformance. And they were all and some of them were at very clerical levels as well. So it was just for them. They've never been exposed to this before. It's great. Now I tell you, Leanne, we things were going really well. So what I did, we had a progress review with it with the managers Manager, which is the executive who got me in upset head office. So I took the entire team, to that meeting, right through to the clerical people. We all got on the train together. And it was like, it's like, it's like the train system in Sydney is like the subway in New York, right? So we all got on. And we took the train up to head office where people hardly ever went into the boardroom. And I, you know, given everybody a cameo role to say, you know, contribute in some way. So it was slick, and it was tight. It wasn't like a, you know, a discussion that went on forever. So, they were so nervous on the train, because they'd never done this before. And that, you know, they hardly ever had any contact with the managers, the executive, the executive, the executive that I asked if these folks when I asked him, if these folks could come I was a little bit mystified that I would bring so many people to a meeting, right, but was great. He said, No problem. Sure. Yeah. It was amazing. I can't explain to you the, the buzz, you know, that interaction and the ownership that people had in what they were doing. They were empowered and on from there, they were empowered, and it was an amazing success. You know, the, the project was an amazing success. And these people, you know, went on to have the confidence and skills to do other things. And our relationships with these people still stay on today. And that's the amazing thing. I mean, if you would have thought,

Leighann Lovely 44:06

well, when you when you give people who think they have no voice of voice for the first time, it is it is remarkable. What they will finally that mean, they will finally sing, they will finally come out of their shell and, and it's it's amazing what you can do when you when you empower somebody to do something that they already have in them. I've watched it with with other people I've had given to me before, I mean, early on in my career when I was very green and you know, having somebody who you know have authorities say well yeah, I want to hear you I want to hear what you think and you just go what why I mean I'm I'm just the but when you enable Tell them, it's it's amazing how they will come out of their shell and then want to do better. Because now they have been seen. That's all they want, they want to be seen and heard, and that you're lighting a fire under them have passion for a cause that they feel they are part of. Up until that point, it was just a place they showed up to. Exactly. It's wildly and

Lisa Carlin 45:30

yeah, they felt sometimes people feel quite powerless in organizations.

Leighann Lovely 45:37

It's it happens. It happens way more frequently than then businesses are willing to acknowledge that that employees just feel like they don't have a voice. And when they do step forward and say, Well, I've got a problem. And then it never goes anywhere and they never hear back. It reinforces that they don't have a voice. And that happens not on purpose. But because managers are often especially middle managers, who are given the complaints, go to their managers, and then their managers never get back to them. And then what are they supposed to do? And the upper management has no idea how, how much that is influencing that first tier, the middle management can see it. And they're struggling in the middle going, well. What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed? And they'll go back to their employer. Oh, sorry, I never heard back. And then that that first year is going well. Okay, so I'm not important. So yeah, it just it and it's a cycle that continues. And, Lisa, I would love to continue this conversation. We are coming to time already. So I have the question of the season. I've been asking everybody, I hope you had a glance at this. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Lisa Carlin 47:10

So Leighann, I think it's all about digital and online. The you know, the changes that we've seen from the pandemic about people realizing they can work from home and be even more productive in some cases, but certainly as productive and moving to hybrid work, and doing things more in a more digital way, including, you know, online learning and upskilling themselves and shopping online and you know, doing more, more things online than ever before. It's just It's apparently that the tech experts say that we have through through just one year of COVID. We've done a 10 years, we've had 10 years of progress. And you know why I think that is interesting. It's interesting, because the technology was always there. Right? And it was the behavior of people and the adoption of people that wasn't you know, that has changed. That's what's made the difference? Yeah, it's cultural. It's a cultural, massive global cultural shift.

Leighann Lovely 48:13

Absolutely. I totally agree. If somebody wanted to reach out, how would they go about getting in contact with you.

Lisa Carlin 48:21

I would love to hear from folks. You can get ahold of me directly through LinkedIn, and also through our future builders group.com website. So thank you for asking the end. Perfect. And

Leighann Lovely 48:34

that will be on the show notes. So you can check the show notes. If you are looking to reach out to Lisa, I really appreciate you joined. Joining me today. This has been such an amazing conversation. I wish that we had more time to dive in to other you know, conversation or other topics. But again, thank you so much for joining me and you have a wonderful rest of your Thursday. Thank you, Leanne. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

transformation, grew, people, organization, business, work, amazing, sessions, month, mentor, program, day, lisa, success rate, initiatives, year, question, world, learning, builders

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After learning so much in her amazing career at CVS Health through managing and hiring others Jennifer pivoted her career. Jennifer Chavez advocate of women, especially veteran women, owns her own recruitment firm where she helps them transition from military life to civilian life by finding positions at companies that are veteran-ready. This is an amazing story and an amazing women.

Contact Jennifer –

Phone Number - 623-387-8995

E-mail - jchavez@grnmoonvalley.com

Website – grnmoonvalley.com/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann lovely. Let's get this conversation started. I have a great guest joining me today Jennifer Chavez. Jennifer is the president and Managing Director of Global recruiters network of Moonee Valley. Global recruiters of Moon Valley's expertise includes recruitment of executive and professionals across the United States in the our B M, healthcare services and Senior Living industries in management, financial operations, sales and project management roles as well as expertise in public speaking, consulting, and training services. As a senior health executive at CVS Health for more than 23 years across multiple sectors of the healthcare and pharmaceutical industry. She was responsible for leading client teams of all sizes and achieved significant success through developing and sourcing high performing talent. Serving as a volunteer Jennifer founded the Phoenix chapter of Next up formerly network of Executive Women, led their logistics team and recruited and developed volunteers for the last 10 years. Jennifer also grew up working in the restaurant business and is the wife of a chef. She is also the granddaughter, daughter, niece and mother of military veterans, and has served as a champion for attracting hiring and retaining women and veterans throughout her career. As a result of her work across these disciplines, Jennifer understands how critical matching exceptional talent to amazing employers is. Her goal is to leverage her knowledge, expertise and deep network to help candidates and companies achieve similar success with creating and retaining high performing teams. Whether you're a company that needs help finding the right person for a tough to fill role, or you're a candidate looking to find the right home, GRN Moon valleys is a maker of matches TM across the expertise to make a meaningful and lasting talent connection. GRN Moon Valley is a maker of matches. TM has the expertise to make a meaningful and lasting talent connection. Jennifer, welcome to the show. I'm excited to have you.

Jennifer Chavez 03:30

Thanks so much, man. I appreciate you having me.

Leighann Lovely 03:32

Yeah, so why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Jennifer Chavez 03:36

Sure, absolutely. So first of all, kind of start with one of the unique things about me. And that's that I'm a second generation Phoenix native. And I actually have two boys that are third generation natives. So they're 17 and 24. They keep me busy. My husband who is a chef. I've been married to almost 30 years, and we're huge foodies. So that's something we like to do in our spare time. And he's originally from California. So we've have a place in the California mountains and we also have a place and of course the Arizona desert and we go between them. So I'm really lucky I consider myself lucky. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 04:15

well that's amazing because what Arizona summers are what temperatures do you guys get to

Jennifer Chavez 04:20

when Oh 120 121 I think it's the high gets a little crazy in summertime. So once in a while

Leighann Lovely 04:32

it's so crazy you know obviously being Milwaukee you know Wisconsin whether we all summer comes in we're all like Oh let's spend every second outside. And for you guys summer comes in you're like oh my god don't go outside. You know you're

Jennifer Chavez 04:48

It's the rest of the year when everyone else is inside that we're out.

Leighann Lovely 04:53

Right right you guys are you have absolutely beautiful of course. Of course. You know I remember And I have an aunt who lives in Arizona. And I would come in the I would go visit her in the in the winter and she'd be outside wearing big fun of her. She, there was one year where my entire family who's not from Arizona, we went and visited her right. And we're all outside wearing T shirts and shorts. And she had, she had a fur coat on. I'm like, What are you doing? And she's like, it's so, so cold. I'm like, it's like 70 degrees. And she's like, I know, it's so cold. I'm like, Oh, my God. But you get a little too acclimated

Jennifer Chavez 05:41

maybe, right,

Leighann Lovely 05:43

you get you get acclimated to your, you know, I'm sure that if you came and spent, you know, a week in in the tundra, when we are in the deep, deep freeze, you'd be like, get me out of here.

Jennifer Chavez 05:58

Well, I have family from Minnesota. So I look then in the deep freeze in the tundra, but I try not to do it too often.

Leighann Lovely 06:05

Right? You go outside and instantly your nose hairs freeze, because did I just say that? But it's a real thing. It really, it's you walk outside just the small amount of moisture in your nose and nasal passages. And you're instantly like, oh, oh, it's too cold must go inside must cover every piece of skin that is exposed. But yeah, no. And that's awesome. So you get to go to California during the during the summer, I'm assuming?

Jennifer Chavez 06:39

Yes, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 06:41

So Jennifer, why don't we go back to what you do for a living? We now know where you live? Where are you? You know, go back and forth between California and Arizona. Let's talk about you know, what do you do? What's your business?

Jennifer Chavez 06:58

Sure. Yeah, thanks for asking me. And so after 23 years, stellar career at CVS Health, I had a career pivot and had to really, you know, evaluate things and take some moments to soul search and figure out what did I want to do, and I and I did that. And I really decided to bet on myself. And I bought a recruiting franchise. And really, this is the culmination of what I've done over 23 years, I have been a leader at a fortune four company. I have interviewed, hired, trained, recruited, mentored, led 1000s and 1000s of people, and I have so much passion for just helping people achieve and be their best. And so all of the aspects that come along with recruiting is really just everything that I absolutely love to do. So that's what I decided just bet on myself and make that happen. And it's been amazing. And I've met so many wonderful, amazing people, and I get to help people in a meaningful way every day. So that's great.

Leighann Lovely 08:02

That's awesome. That is, that is absolutely awesome. It is. It is scary, though, to take that leap. So how did you finally decide? How did you finally decide? I'm going to I'm going to do this, and I'm going to, you know, wholeheartedly throw myself into entrepreneurship.

Jennifer Chavez 08:25

Right? Well, I guess the best way to say it is that, you know, sometimes things happen for a reason. And I truly believe that. And I think that had after my career pivot. And I really was genuinely trying to say, what do I want to do in career 2.0 and explore that? You know, after 23 years, I really never saw myself being in that position. So I definitely was having a bit of an identity crisis and trying to figure that out. Like, I've done this for almost 25 years, oh, my gosh, what do I do next? And so when I really took that moment to, to invest in myself, and really soul search and think about what that is, it kind of came to me through two ways. First of all, when I was doing that, and working towards those things, and considering them, I was super excited. And there was a lot of it was scary, but it was also fun. And when I thought about, you know, doing some of the things that I had done, you know, previously, it really just didn't feel like the right thing to do. So some of it was instinct, but very honestly, had I really gotten an excellent, great job and the time period when I was searching, I probably would have gone back. I mean, honestly, it was fear. Fear was really like I've done this for so long, you know, on somebody else's dime, doing it on my own Can I do it? And I really had to dig deep and my resources of myself and say, I know I can do this. I've got this. I've done it for them. I can do it for other people. And I had a lot of great encouragement from some wonderful friends and mentors, who said, This is what you're born to do. You were meant to do this, this is absolutely your life's path, you need to be helping people in this way. So a confluence of those three things is really what led me to that decision. And I really feel like God probably had a hand in that. Sometimes your prayers are answered by them not being answered.

Leighann Lovely 10:27

That's amazing. So tell me a little bit about well, actually, before we get into that, when you and I first spoke, I know that one of your passions, you know, first of all, you and I connected on so many different levels. It was just an amazing, you know, first meeting first con, you know, conversation. But you had mentioned that you really focus on helping women, women, that trends transition into the civilian world. Yeah, I want to talk about that, because it's, it's so amazing, because the majority of the people who I have worked with who understand one, veterans, right, and then understand the staffing and hiring world have come to truly understand the difficulty that that exists with translating, you know, a military job. Yes, into this the civilian world? Because, you know, when you talk about an MOS, yeah, job title there. Yes, it doesn't exist. Right? It doesn't know. And so, so many people get overlooked. Fes Yes, for for jobs.

Jennifer Chavez 11:52

Absolutely. And I will tell you that this really came to my attention very clearly. Because my son is in the military, and he's a veteran now. But when he was in the military, at the very same time, my company at the time, CVS, was doing training for their leaders, they we had great diversity and inclusion programs. And military was a huge focus. And I was part of our colleague, resource group that supported military, I have a lot of military family members. And before I even knew my son was considering a military career, that was a whole left field decision for him that I wasn't expecting, but I was supportive of him doing it. And, you know, it's been a pretty amazing learning experience for me as an Army mom. And really, you know, at the same time getting all of that training and understanding very clearly as a hiring leader at a very big company, what the huge gap was, and why I didn't really understand why those things were difficult to translate until I had experienced it myself. And so that really kind of clicked for me at the time, like, wow, there is really a lot of experience that get in the military, that it's really hard to translate into the civilian world, and sometimes hard for people to understand, if you haven't experienced it, the resiliency and the discipline and the you know, so many wonderful leadership qualities that are just absolutely, that's the whole military program is, you know, that is all the training and everything that everybody gets for the entire military. And you might have a specialty your MOS and things like that, that you learn a particular job. But that, and there's value in that too. But there's so much of you know, what the military teaches that is just really awesome for business, how to be on time every day. Start there. It's an I talk to people every day. So I talked to both individuals, candidates, and I talked to clients. And so it's, they really need each other women and veterans and those two things coming together. It's just one of those things that I'm I can see the need. And I love helping people and I can help bridge that gap and bring people together. And when I do, it's amazing. And you know, so I'm just super passionate about it. And I definitely seek out and promote and try to help as many people that I can.

Leighann Lovely 14:32

Yeah, and, you know, something that you said in there, you know, how to be on time, how to, how to show up and, and show up in a manner that is appropriate to work. Right. You know, you can't just you can't just stumble in the door. You know, right, tired and non productive and expect to before your day. Right, ready for your day? You know, and I'm flashing back to the days where I was in my 20s were like, Yeah, well, I'm here. Why? Why? I'm, what do you mean? I'm in trouble I showed up today. It's like, Well, you look like you rolled out of bed and you can barely keep your head, uh, you know, up off your desk, that's not exactly showing up. You know, you're physically here. Right. And that brings me, you know, to a, you know, a while ago, I was I was working with an organization that helped men and women who were transitioning out of jail, or out of band. And that was one of the things that they were teaching was how to set an alarm clock. So that they could get out of Secretary Smith. Yeah, it is. But for somebody who's been in prison for, say, five years,

Jennifer Chavez 16:03

they're institutionalized. They everything is controlled for them. Correct.

Leighann Lovely 16:07

So if you have a military, you know, somebody who's in the military, the idea of being late for them is not it's not an option. Right? It's that's not that's not even.

Jennifer Chavez 16:22

You can't on time as expected,

Leighann Lovely 16:25

correct. There is no being late. Yeah. And punishment for being late in the military is it's a big deal. Severe. Correct. So the core values just instilled in a military personnel are through the roof compared to other individuals. But there is a learning curve when it comes to working with somebody who is transitioning from military to civilian world, because the majority of unless you're in a high ranking position, all of the job duties, all of they are handed out, you are told here is your job here is the end result here, there is no there is no in between for that person to make decisions. And that is that is what is difficult for companies to understand.

Jennifer Chavez 17:29

Right? Right. Chain of Command following orders and not using judgment. Yes, there are times when the in their jobs when they need to use judgment. But from an assignment perspective, they don't want them to they just want them to do exactly what they're told. Right. And so it is it definitely those nuances are really important. And that's so thank you so much for understanding that and for bringing it up and highlighting it. And we're going to be doing a training session in September. And it's going to be actually on September 27. And it is sponsored by myself, as well as my partner in crime, Lieutenant Colonel Kathy galatz. She is a Vanguard veteran, and leads women who lead that I'm a part of, and she's just amazing. But she's invited me to come help share my recruiting expertise with the audience and really help train people on onboarding, hiring retaining veterans. And part of that is exactly what you talked about. It's what is the culture onboarding and ongoing process that you have to assimilate veterans into a civilian kind of environment and helping them make that transition successfully. And they are very adaptable, and they can definitely learn, but they just need a little bit of help to make that transition. And so companies who really make the effort to do that can reap so many great rewards from it. And so I'm super excited about it, and will provide additional details on how to get tickets to the event. But I just so passionate about being able to deliver this information to companies and individuals

Leighann Lovely 19:17

now is this is this event live or is it virtual? How?

Jennifer Chavez 19:22

That's a great question. It's actually both we're gonna do it in person at the Mac sex Entrepreneurial Center in Tempe, Arizona, and they have generously donated the space for us to be able to provide that. And also we are going to be doing that from an online presence as well so people can attend online. So it really opens up the ability for people to be able to attend. So if you want some in person networking, come join us in person if you'd like to be able to attend online. We will be doing that too. So right September 20. statements from eight to 11.

Leighann Lovely 20:01

Yeah, that's and that's awesome. Because, again, you know, the the failure rate of veterans transitioning into roles is so high and that, and I, I've asked so many people, why is that? Why is it and, and I get I get different answers. But one of the answers that always stands out is because it comes down to the feet fear, it comes down to the company ends up fearing that they don't want to. They're afraid of offending. Right, that veteran like, well, I don't want to go to them and tell them, you know, you're supposed to be doing it this way. Because, you know, they served in the army they should or not, aren't they served in the military? You know, like, I feel like if I'm, it's almost like, well, just because they served doesn't, right, they understand your job, you have to train them, just like any other person. And in some cases even more, because they've lived in an environment where there was no black. No, there was no gray, it was black. And it was white. Right? Here are your instructions, follow them to a tee, do not color outside the lines. Right period. You're asking them to make independent decisions. And that is not the lifestyle they have ever lived. Right? So now you, you know, and and companies are like, Well, yeah, but if I go there and say, Well, you got to do it differently. Am I going to offend this veteran who is, you know, such an amazing human for doing what they've done, and they should know better? And know, you're not going to offend? do offend the other employees when you go and say, Hey, do this different?

Jennifer Chavez 22:00

Right. You know, it's so interesting about that comment. And I've had a little bit of an aha moment, as I've been working with Kathy, and part of the what we'll deliver to the attendees at the event, is a checklist that kind of helps, like, what are some of those things that you can do real practical solutions to put things in place? But I guess, you know, from that standpoint, you know, when you are asking anybody to your point, to do something at your company, what I learned when I read through the checklist was, these are just best practices for any person. And so what works for any human being works for a military person, you have rules, you have guidelines, you have expectations, you communicate them to your team, and then you help them achieve their goals and expectations by being a great leader and helping them with resources. So that's really all it is. And I think it's just a lot of people don't know, and because they don't understand, I think it does lead to that fear. So I think you're right on.

Leighann Lovely 23:01

Right. But that's not unique to veterans. No, it is, it isn't. I mean, I think that the majority of our decision making comes down to a couple of things fear, unknown, you know, the unknown, uncommon, uncomfortableness, which all really falls into the same bucket. It all comes down to emotions on how is this going to make me feel? Am I going to make somebody else feel? I mean, that that's what it is where people so it all comes down, it all boils down to emotion. And then of course, there's another bucket, which is the money bucket. How much is this going to cost me? And can I afford it? Yes. I mean, there's not a whole ton of buckets on when it comes to decision making. There's right? I mean, it's pretty simple.

Jennifer Chavez 23:54

What I find fascinating about the human brain that I think a lot of people don't understand, everyone thinks that you when you make decisions that your mate using logic, decision base is always emotion. And so we just have to know that and know that we're emotional creatures. And you know, you have to manage your emotions and you have to manage emotions in the workplace. And everybody's responsible for doing that for themselves. But as a leader, you have an extra responsibility to help people. And so all that's normal, that's just part of being human. So we just have to help each other out. Right?

Leighann Lovely 24:27

Yeah, absolutely. You know, as a sales professional on top of, you know, my audience knows that I have now transitioned into being an entrepreneur, myself sales professional. I tell people constantly, people do not buy on logic, as much as you try to explain to them this is a really logic like, this is a logical decision. It's going to help your business. You're talking to a wall, you might as well be, you know, If they don't like you, they're not going to buy from you. They buy on emotion, justify on logic. Right? Exactly. And of story, it's same with, you know, you go to a clothing store, if you put something on that makes you feel beautiful. You are going to justify why you're spending that money. Even if you don't have it. When you get up to that register, you're going to find a way to justify it. Well, I, I need it or I, I, you know, I have to have this because, you know, then you go home and your husband or your wife is like, what are you doing? Well, I had to buy it because yeah, no, you didn't. Right. It's it's an emotional, why do you think that they put all of the you know, candy and the, you know, the quick, emotional? Oh, chocolate, that'll make me feel happy. At the restaurant, anyways. Okay, I digress. And I do all the time.

Jennifer Chavez 26:06

That's part of life. It's fun. Right? Take side side roads.

Leighann Lovely 26:10

So you had mentioned another organization that you're part of lead? What is the name of it? Women who lead women who lead? Yeah, so tell me. Tell me about that. More? Yeah.

Jennifer Chavez 26:27

Yeah. So women who lead is sponsored by Vanguard veteran, my friend, Kathy galettes. And what its mission is, is really to equip civilians, to support veterans, and specifically women in particular. And so this is a monthly meeting, it is free, and it is virtual, that really has different individuals that can come on and share some of the information that they have, from their perspective, to share with the audience. And as long as it supports the mission. There's all kinds of different topics that we talked about. So I'm actually going to be presenting on September 13, that women who lead and I'm going to talk about leading yourself through transitions. And so it's really it's for everybody, but really, it is also specifically some tips and tricks in there, for helping civilians on how they can support military individuals who are going through transition, whether they're coming out of the military, maybe their military spouse who's experiencing a transition, or you know, any number of other types of transitions and careers that people go through. But it's really just a great group of people that get together and share ideas and information about how to best help and support that community and get connected with other people who are like minded and additional resources. And so anyway, it's I can also share the information about how to get connected with that if anybody would like to, you know, check out the content and attend. It's free, and it's virtual. And it's also in person. So if you're in the Phoenix area, they have a monthly networking opportunity there as well.

Leighann Lovely 28:08

That's great. That's absolutely awesome. And it's in in you said it's also virtual, so anybody can join online. And that's yes, that's great. Yes,

Jennifer Chavez 28:18

all you have to do is register, and they send you the link to dial in from zoom and the information to attend in person. So it's your choice.

Leighann Lovely 28:28

Well, that's great. That's absolutely awesome. Yes. So I want to refocus. When you and I talked, you had mentioned something that I find Well, I find wildly fascinating because again sales and it's not just sales that you have to do this and there's many different fields that you have to do this in but for me, it's you know, sales and I I'm like a dog with a bone when it comes to this kind of stuff. But you had mentioned to me that you love to negotiate.

Jennifer Chavez 28:59

Yes,

Leighann Lovely 29:00

I have. I love like a negotiation battle with you. Because it's, you know, it gets my heart pumping like okay, how can I and again, not like an in a in a I was gonna say violent you know, I don't think there's violent negotiation but like in that in that sport way of like, okay, how can I you know, do that? Yeah, sure that competitive nature how can I do the best for my client if I'm negotiating on behalf of my client and in the recruiting industry? Obviously my background in recruiting one of the things I always used to explain to my candidates when when working with them was hey, you know, tell me what your what your base level like I can make it if I'm making this much money, what is your I would love to make you know this much is that's really a great number. What is your absolute like, this would make my life fabulous, I could go on and extra vacations. And then I would say, look, the more money you make, the more money I make. Right? But I also have to do right by my clients, right? And make sure that I'm not pricing you out of the market. And they're like, Oh, okay. And when you explain that to them, all the sudden they're like, Oh, so you're not the enemy. You're not going to try to undercut me? No, of course, I'm not going to try to undercut you. I want you to make as much as you possibly can. But you also can't price yourself out of the market so that they immediately go to the other candidate and say, Yeah, their way. They're asking for way too much. Absolutely. And then it was like, I'm ready to go. So tell me about your negotiation. Itch.

Jennifer Chavez 30:52

Yes. So I have always loved to negotiate. My parents taught me from an early age to negotiate. I'll explain a little My mom was a yard sale queen, and she absolutely loved yard saleing. And she would take me with her, I was very little. And I remember the first negotiation I ever did was at a yard sale. And I had $2 of allowance money that I had to spend. And I had seen two things that I wanted, there was a book and there was this cute little yellow sundress with a little jacket. And I just wanted that dress so bad. But I didn't have enough money for both so and went to my mom. And I was like, Well, you know, shout him to her. And she goes, Well, you have your allowance money. How much does it cost? And how much do you have? And so I was like, not enough. She's like, Well, why don't you go? She goes, the lady over there is running the yard. So why don't you go talk to her? And just ask her maybe if she would take us for it. Like, oh, how much should I offer her? She goes, Well, how much do you have? Anyway, I went and I talked to the woman. And so I tried to negotiate with her. And I ended up getting not only the dress, but the book for my $2. So I learned an important lesson that day, right? But it was she made it you know, fun. And it was an opportunity for me to learn in a pretty safe environment. But I kept practicing. And, you know, my dad was also used car salesman saw my first car and negotiated on my own with his assistants. So I'm just I've had that training and background. So that's kind of what spurred me to really just, I just do without thinking about it all the time. I negotiate everything, whenever I can, just because I love it right. And it's fun. Most people think it's more like going to the dentist. And so what I've learned is that 20% of women don't negotiate anything ever. Because they even feel that talking about it or even bring it up is just not something they're comfortable doing. And so I just have a super passion for helping people understand. All negotiating is is talking to someone and coming to an agreement mutually for something that you both want, right?

Leighann Lovely 33:16

You know, it's so funny, because let me see, I was I think I was 22. And I was driving down the highway, my car had been totaled, and then rebuilt at almost totaled. The front end had been been rebuilt. And and I knew it wasn't gonna last, but the insurance company wouldn't total it out. So I'm driving down the highway and my timing belt just broke. And instead of dropping out the bottom of the car, for some reason, it went up into the car. And if anybody knows anything about vehicles as they're listening to this, what happened was the car completely seized and the engine just basically. I mean, everything just started, you know, water squirting out and I'm like the car is done. There is no coming back. And to try to go back to an insurance company like this was probably a year and a half later, to try to go back and say, Well, this was from the original accident would have been a nightmare. I didn't have the funds to go and fight it. I didn't have right. Well, right down the street from me, probably about a mile and a half down the street. was a was a Ford shop and I was driving a Ford. I owed $263 in note $223.63 on that car. I quickly looked up how much I owed on the correct. So I called the dealership and I said can you come and tow my car to your dealership? And they said yeah, we can do that. And I'm like, thank you. They gave me because it was like right down the road and they were available they like they're like we're not going to charge you for it. And I was like, excellent. Basically, they said, We're not going to charge you for it. If you're gonna get it fixed, you're great. I get there. And I said, You know what, I'm not going to fix it, I'm going to junk it. And actually, I'm not going to junk it. The sales guy came up to me and I said, I'd like to talk to you about buying a car, and he goes, Okay, and I said, I'll do it today. But you have to give me $223 $223.63 For my car, and he goes, that's a really specific number. I said, Uh huh. And he goes, Why so specific? I said, because it's exactly what I owe for a car that will not drive sitting on your lot right now. And he goes, Oh, okay. He goes, What do you mean, it won't drive? I said, the engine is cease. Right? I said, it is undriveable. And it will never drive again. Right? I'm like, you basically have an engine block that is done. And he's like, how do I know that? And I'm like, because I've had this happen before. I've had a lot of crappy cars. Oh, no. And he's like, Well, we're gonna have the guys look at it and see what we can do. And I'm like, what you can do is strip it and sell it for parts or use it for parts, right? And he goes, Well, I don't know if if they're gonna, if if they'll pay you that for your car. That doesn't work. And I'm like, well, then I'll walk and I'll go buy a car somewhere else. And he goes, really? Over 200. Nice. Yep. over that.

Jennifer Chavez 36:30

And he feels principle of nothing.

Leighann Lovely 36:32

Exactly. It comes down to the principle of it. And I said, But in the meantime, I'm going to go look on your lot. And I'm going to find a car that I want. And I'm going to drive away with it today. If you agree to my terms. I found a car. I think they came down about to two or $3,000 on the sticker price. It was a brand new car. I mean, remember, this is years ago. And he goes, Okay, you know, we're going to offer you the $223.63 for your car. I got my finance manager to agree to it. I'm doing quotes right now, because the whole finance manager crap is just irritating. So, um, so you know, now we're negotiating the price of the new car. And I'm like, Well, I'm not going to pay the sticker price, you know, blah, blah, blah, and we go over that we go over that we sit down, he goes, Wow, you are really, really, really asking for a lot. And I said, I am not asking for a lot. So we get to the whole negotiation parties like Okay, so are you ready to sign in? I said, I actually not yet. I said, I know that you can throw in some free oil changes. And he goes, what? And I'm like, hot. Come on. This is not my first time. I know. I'm young. But this is not my first time buying your car. I said I bought this new car, like three years ago. And I'm like so and I had worked at a dealership. By the way. I had worked at a car dealership. Oh my goodness. So he goes, Okay, fine. We'll throw in some free car washes. And I said, Okay, so for a year to cover on my car, what not car washes, oil changes, right for a year, he covered all my oil changes, got a whole bunch of tickets for that so I can bring it back and get my oil changes. And then as I'm signing all the papers, he goes, God I feel like you're you're just basically robbing me blind. And I said no, robbing you blind would say I would be robbing you blind, I would tell you that you need to take the Ford shirt off that you're wearing. So I can walk up this walk out with some swag from Ford. And he started laughing. And he goes, I do have some swag. So I walked out of there with a brand new car. They paid off my other car. And he gave me some swag and oil changes.

Jennifer Chavez 38:40

Oh my gosh, that's awesome. I'm going after my own heart. Right.

Leighann Lovely 38:44

And I've been I was only like, 20 I don't know what year is that? That had to have been like 2223. And I remember when I got home, my dad goes, you bought a new car? And I'm like, yeah, and he goes, Well, you should have let me come there. And I said, Oh, no. Dad, and I told my dad that story. He was like, Oh my God.

Jennifer Chavez 39:04

That's an awesome story. And I love it. And you

Leighann Lovely 39:07

know, every time I've ever bought a car from now on, you know, I've always I've always because, you know they do so many run arounds and and all you have to do to you know to them is hey, I'm walking. I'm gonna go across the street and buy a car over there. But you just have

Jennifer Chavez 39:25

to actually pick up your feet and leave and then they come running after you.

Leighann Lovely 39:29

Correct. And I've done it. I've walked out the door and I don't need this car. Well nowadays. Right? You might, but I mean back then it was I can go across the street. I can drive 15 minutes down in given that I've always had a really high credit score, that there's other people that don't have the luxury of having. But yes, that was that was my My first real hardcore like negotiating for. And again, I had inside knowledge, I know how much commission they make on new cars versus, you know, used cars which used cars way more commission at that time. You know, it was just

Jennifer Chavez 40:19

so had all the secret sauce

Leighann Lovely 40:21

I've never been, I've never been a woman who was who was shy to be like, No, I'm gonna see what I can get from, you know out of this.

Jennifer Chavez 40:31

And so if you can imagine Lian, every woman in the world doing what you and I just talked about negotiating their own car deals, not taking it when people give them a price, you know, try to negotiate down whenever you can. And I mean, everybody is, you know, some things are negotiable. And some things aren't. But it doesn't hurt to try. But I can say it was no, my dad's favorite saying that he always taught me and this is going to be the name of my book is find out what they won't take.

Leighann Lovely 41:03

Yeah, it's everything. Well, obviously, you can't walk into a store and be like, hey, I'll give you $25 for a $50 item. But you know, the price is the price, but everybody will pay a price for something. And there's always a way to bring a price down. If somebody is willing, or somebody wants to sell something. It's just, you just got to find the common ground. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. I am 100%. with you on that. Well, we are no, we've got a little bit more time. So tell me about let me see. So you've got quite a few different groups that you support. Tell me about steps and WSN.

Jennifer Chavez 41:58

Yeah, so those were the two initial groups, the women's leadership groups at CVS stops was started on the retail side of the business. And WSN was the women's success network. And that was on the pharmacy benefit management side of the business. And I was a leader in both and I was responsible for bringing both groups together as one to have one integrated women's support network. So anyway, I've always just felt super passionate about helping other women, I have had a lot of super strong, wonderful female mentors in my life, that have given me lots of great career advice and help along the way. And so I've always been very passionate about giving back. And being a part of those two organizations then led me to start network of executive women, which is something that I started in the Phoenix region with a couple of other really great ladies that worked for other major companies in the Phoenix area. And we started it and I led it for 10 years as a logistics officer. And I was a speaker for them and mentor. And so it just it led me to a lot of really amazing things, just you know, kind of following my passion and trying to help mentor other female leaders and help them grow in their careers. So longtime passion,

Leighann Lovely 43:24

and what are the main types of roles that you place people in?

Jennifer Chavez 43:30

Yes, so that's a great question. My focus is largely I have a few different areas of expertise. So healthcare and Pharmacy Benefits Management biopharma is really my my main one, I spent 23 years and in that area, certified pharmacy technician and all kinds of experience there. But also, when I started this went into senior living. And that's really the same skill sets and same profile for hiring for a lot of individuals in the healthcare industry in its healthcare, Jason. So I placed a lot of people in those areas. And then also my clients have been franchise owners. And so that kind of has led me and I'm a franchise, female franchise, entrepreneur myself. So that's really also led me to really understanding how franchises work and really being able to specialize and help them from a recruiting perspective. Because usually, especially when you're first starting, you are both working on the business and in the business as an individual owner. And then you may grow over time. Some people start off with more than that, but there's a pretty specific challenge to that. And so because I really understand that and can help people in a lot of different ways from a recruiting perspective, that's been really successful for me too. So those are my main three areas. And then I'll just throw in there that my husband is a shop and the general manager for his entire career, and we're a significant foodie, so I've spent a lot of time in the restaurant business have no expertise there, too.

Leighann Lovely 45:02

Awesome. So we are coming to time, I want to ask you the question of the season. What what do you think will go down in the history books, from what has what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Jennifer Chavez 45:18

Well, LeAnn, I absolutely love that question. And I think the answer is AI, artificial intelligence. And, I mean, there's a lot of things that have been really impactful, right. But I've just seen so much energy about artificial intelligence, especially recently, and I'm dabbling into it myself, as you mentioned, from a sales perspective, you know, that's what I do all day. And so there's, especially for recruiting and sales, there's really a lot of applicability of some of the capabilities that artificial intelligence has. And I know a lot of people, there's a lot of fear and things out there too. But I think it's probably like any other tool that we have, we will learn more about it, it will, you know, mold and shape over time, but I just really feel like, you know, the, I've been using it for applications even like, Okay, write me up a press release chat. GPT. What does that look like, I'm I'm not a press release expert. I don't know what the format is and how to write them. I call it my virtual assistant. So, you know, just to do things that, you know, maybe we would have spent a lot of time doing that aren't value added. So we can move up the ladder and be more strategic in the way that we spend our time. And I really feel like that has a lot of help for business. And I don't think, you know, I know, there's a lot of worry out there about it replacing people. But I'm sure everyone thought, you know, probably when the internet came out, or you know, when monster.com came out, you know, that everything, you know, humans were no longer going to be needed. But what I've learned over time is just that, you know, technology is really what you make it and I think that you know, you can use it for good or you could use it for not, but it does really help us it has a lot of influence. So for me, history books, that's that's my vote.

Leighann Lovely 47:12

Absolutely. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Jennifer Chavez 47:17

If they want to reach me, my phone number is 623-387-8995. That's probably one of the easiest and most direct ways to reach me. I also have my email address is my first initial and my last name. So J Chavez Cha V as in Victor E z at G R n. And that stands for Global recruiters network. So grn Moon valley.com. So J Chava. Is at grn valley.com.

Leighann Lovely 47:45

Perfect. Jennifer, this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.

Jennifer Chavez 47:52

Absolutely. Man, you've been a wonderful host and thank you so much for kindly inviting me and allowing me to share my message.

Leighann Lovely 48:00

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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Planning an event is hard, they are meant to be fun, educational, festive, and so many other things. What we don’t think about, is that planning an event is not just about all the detail of who will speak, how many chairs you need, it is also about how to keep your attendees as safe as possible if and when things come up. This week's guest shines a light on what an event hall is responsible for and what the host is responsible for. Tune in, because I was shocked!

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Sarah Davis 02:01

It is wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 02:03

So you, you have such an amazing, interesting business. So I'm excited to talk with you. Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Sarah Davis 02:16

Sure. So I am the CEO of event safety plus, and we work with event planners, anyone planning an event to mitigate safety concerns before they happen. And create safety plans for those events are goals that everyone should be able to attend things safely. But me personally, I live outside of Chicago, I lived here since before COVID. So I haven't really explored much, which is funny. But we'll we'll do that eventually right born and raised in Michigan. And we started this company about a year ago now because we were at an event where an active shooter happened, it was a parade and with our background, my partner and I our background in emergency services and emergency management, we saw some things that with a little bit of extra planning could have been way different and less impactful on the community. And we we knew that we could make a difference. And we knew we can make a change with those things. So we started the company.

Leighann Lovely 03:24

So and first. Wow. I mean for being at an event. That's such a scary, I mean, even even being blocks away and hearing that you're hearing gunshots or hearing any type of it's just such an amazing ly amazingly terrifying. situation I've been, and I was in my home when this happened, but when gunshots ring out and you just immediately you know that that fear factor because you have no idea where it's coming from where it's pointed. So, I mean, first of all, that's it's amazing that that idea, you know, at that point came up for you. And to that you've you've taken on, you know, a position, an opportunity to say, hey, let's create something that can actually help mitigate, you know, risk in situations like this. And I'm assuming that this is not or that there is not a whole ton of companies out there that do what you do.

Sarah Davis 04:38

No, no, there are a few companies that give you some tools to kind of do it yourself and make a plan and offer you know, some 30 minutes courses, things like that. But But the bigger thing is that people that plan events are creative. They're planners, they want to you know make the event beautiful Well, they want everybody to have fun, right? And a lot of event planners or people that plan events, because that everybody that plans that event has that title. They're not trained in what risk factors and what safety factors can happen at their event. And we're talking just little things. I'm not even talking big things like an active shooter or a tornado, we're talking, what would happen if somebody had a heart attack at your event? Does somebody know how to use the AED machine? Or do CPR? Or are you yelling for somebody who knows CPR in the crowd, it would be so much easier if the event planners or the coordinators had those skill sets to make sure that people can be taken care of. Those are just some small things that factor into the reason we started this.

Leighann Lovely 05:53

So explain to me, obviously, it's not something that many people think about it large or small, I mean, there's there potentially could be risk at a very, you know, a 20 person event versus a 350 person event, obviously, risk goes up, the larger the event is, more people you have, you know, higher risk that somebody could have a heart attack or slice the risk on a garbage can that has a whatever, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So explain to me, when you, you know, when you first start talking to people, you know, what is the responsibility of, for instance, like a hall? Or of the location that they're going to, versus the responsibility of the person who's planning the actual event? Where is there? You know, whose responsibility is is what and where that fall?

Sarah Davis 06:57

Sure, and that's a an amazing question. Because a lot of people think, if they rent out, say, a hall for a work event, or something like that, and it's attached to a hotel, just, I'm living groundwork here, you know, and the fire alarm goes off, it's your responsibility, not the hotels to get your people out safely, they are not going to come down to the hall and help you get out, they're all getting out of the hotel. And they hope you do too. They they wish you no ill will, right. They're not like, you know, hoping you don't get out. They all but they are not coming down to help you evacuate your people, you need to evacuate the hall yourself, you need to know where those exits are. And you need to have a plan to get everybody out. And this is where a lot of times, if you've ever rented a spot, and people that are listening, probably have done this to where you get in there and all the tables are lined up in a specific manner, right, or all the circle tables are in a specific location. And then you know what you want to do breakouts, you want to do this. So you start moving the tables, and somebody from the hotel walks by and he's like, No, you can't do that. Because if the fire alarm goes off, and the tables aren't where they put them, they can't guarantee it, that you meet the fire code to be able to get out of that room. And that's their, that's their responsibility to make sure that you need the fire code to get out of the room. But if you mess it up, it's not on your plate to to make sure people have the paths to get out. And if you move all those tables, they may not. So back to your original question. It's the event planner, or the host of the event, it's their responsibility to know the hazards that can come into play, and have a proper plan should they occur.

Leighann Lovely 08:45

That's wildly interesting. And here's why. Because I'm going to guess the majority of the people that you speak with it, especially when it comes to hey, I'm going to rent out this small hall and I'm going to have a 25 person birthday party. Yeah. And they I'm going to guess that they say, well, it would be the hotel's responsibility to make sure that if something were to go wrong, that they're going to help us out.

Sarah Davis 09:14

No, right. And I know it isn't, it's their responsibility to make sure that the fire alarm and the sprinklers are working, and that there is a path for you to get out. But 98% of the time, they don't provide even an exit strategy for you unless you ask. So if you do ask most hotels and conference centers say these are our 10 exits, right? This is the closest one to you. And they have something to the effect of what you see on the back of hotel room doors, where it's like if the smoke alarm goes off, follow this and you'll get to your nearest exit, right. They would have that for conference rooms too, but they're not coming to help you.

Leighann Lovely 09:56

Right. And and what is the first thing that you know when I I go to an event or when I've helped set up an event, the one of the first things that people do is start going, Okay, where are we going to move these tables to make it effective for us to do XYZ? And up and that, I mean, it happens. If I can't read or write, I can't think of a place that I've gone that when I'm helping setup, that's like one of the first things that people do.

Sarah Davis 10:24

Yeah, yeah. And that is something that you should not do that I do not recommend doing. Right? Because you can throw off your exit strategy should need to exit. Interesting. Most people go into these events, though, with the mentality of that's never going to happen to me. And so that that is something that we have encountered a lot too.

Leighann Lovely 10:49

Right. So, now let's talk a little bit more about injury or, you know, like saying outdoor events. So, you know, we have some of these? Well, I have a couple of events coming up that, you know, one is is an outdoor, very large event. So let's, let's, let's talk about what is the responsibility of, say, the grounds when it comes to somebody slips, falls, bangs their head, and now they need emergency support of some kind to be taken to the nearest hospital? Or what is the responsibility of the person who's putting on the event versus the responsibility of the grounds to make sure that there is a safe, quick way to get them off the grounds or emergency care?

Sarah Davis 11:39

Sure, sure. So there's two answers to that. It depends on where you're renting outside, and what you've agreed to beforehand. So if you're renting a outdoor venue, and they're providing grounds crew, for you, in some sort of safety measures, right, like they're providing people to park cars and stuff like that, because some places want cars parked under a certain spot, and whatever, they may have an opportunity for you to say, will you help us if safety concerns happen? Okay, but go ahead.

Leighann Lovely 12:16

And I'm just gonna, is that a question you have to ask?

Sarah Davis 12:19

Yes. 100%? That is a question you have to ask, when you're signing that agreement, whatever that agreement ends up being. But 98% of the time, when you do an outdoor event, you're doing it in a park or a fairgrounds, or, you know, pick a location, they may have people that are changing the trash for you. And sometimes they don't even have that it might be your responsibility. But 90% of the time, they are not providing people that will help in those situations, they are not going to provide you medical services or transportation for your people out of the location to the hospital, none of that. So your choices, I have a medical tenant with, you know, maybe a nurse that is there to help with immediate concerns. And I call 911 If something were to happen, or you just call 911 and waves, and I think get into why that's not always the best scenario,

Leighann Lovely 13:20

right? Depending on the city that you're in, depending on the location, you're sad, it's response time can be 12 minutes or two minutes, depending on how populated the city is. Or exactly, or it can be 21 minutes

Sarah Davis 13:34

Or how remotes how remote you are. Yeah. So if you're in an area that has, you know, volunteer fire department, it could be 20 to 30 minutes before somebody can get there.

Leighann Lovely 13:45

Right? So if you're dealing with a heart attack, that's the difference between life and death.

Sarah Davis 13:51

Yep.

Leighann Lovely 13:53

Processing. Yeah, every interest.

Sarah Davis 13:56

It can be scary, it can be scary. And this is where sometimes what I do, and the stories that I tell can get a little scary. And that's why what we do is so important, because we want people to go to events to have fun. We saw all of the planning, and all of the safety concerns can be done beforehand. And, you know, pre planned for and all of that. So if something does happen, it can be taken care of quickly, and the fun can continue to happen. Right? And I know you're gonna say it's hard to have fun if somebody has a heart attack. So take that out of the situation for a hot second. But let's take a sprained ankle, right. If you're at a large wedding venue and someone's sprained their ankle in the middle of the dance floor, you want to have a plan to move them get them somewhere safe. You know, do we need to call 911? Do we need to just wrap it, you don't leave them in the middle of the dance floor and have people dance around them? slightly funny but not appropriate. Right?

Leighann Lovely 14:55

Sorry, I know. I'm laughing because it's it's ridiculous. Uh, that somebody would do that. But then you take into account that, in most, you know, most, a lot of these places you have a lot of intoxicated people and Right. Right. So and it's interesting because now as you're, as you're bringing these things up, I'm going through my my rolodex in my head of wow, I've been at a baseball game, where a a friend gots a ring, crunched in a door, and then that ring was actually bent and started pinching off the circulation to her finger, where, you know, immediately we had to go to, you know, at the stadium, they had a full blown nurse's station, and ended up having to do it. Right. So we immediately called one of the attendants, what do we do? Where do we go, they had a full blown Medical Center on the first floor had to go down, they ended up having to actually cut the ring off, right? You know, and in that situation, if that wasn't the I mean, it would have been get out of the stadium, go to the emergency room.

Sarah Davis 16:11

And that would have been go to your car, get out of the parking lot, go to the emergency room, that could have been a 30 to 40 minute adventure correct in order to get it cut it off. Whereas in this case, it was probably seven done in 15 minutes.

Leighann Lovely 16:25

And in less than that. And sure, sure, finger was perfectly fine. She was actually able to enjoy the rest of the day, other than the fact that she just lost a ring. But, you know, that could have been rather lose a ring but the finger? Correct? Correct. I mean, you 30 to 40 minutes of having no circulation to your finger that could have done damage that could have done nerve damage that could have done multiple. And then, you know, again, as you're talking at, you know, I've I've now that I'm thinking about it, a lot of the fairs, especially, you know, going it's, you know, we're experiencing summer, there's little tents that I always that I've seen it quite a few of them where they have, you know, these two people sitting in there's like a little Medical Center, you know.

Sarah Davis 17:09

Yeah, so I mean those people are probably CPR certified, they have, you know, band aids for kids, they have some ace bandages in case, but they can triage the situation, right, you can come to them with a cut bleeding and they wash it off, they're like, Go, it's just a surface thing, you know, go back out and have fun, right? They can triage things. And that's a key, that's a key to Planning Fairs, do some fairs, I should say, do really well with that, right? They have a really good plan for medical care, because especially if there's going to be animals, different things, you never know what an animal is going to do to somebody. Right, right. I lived in the country, I've seen cows kill people, so you never know. So they always have a plan for that. However, a lot of fairs don't have a good evacuation plan. Because they try to limit the entrances and exits, so that they can limit the amount of people it's how they make money. Right, right. And so there's limited and entries and exits for people to leave should something happen. And a lot of fears and counter weather, right. So if there's a lightning storm or a tornado coming in, and everybody needs to get to their cars, it can be a bottleneck. And that causes people to be injured in the bottleneck. But it also might not allow them to get home in a quick enough manner.

Leighann Lovely 18:30

Well, and we all heard, what year was it the story of the doors that opened the back backwards. This was many, many years ago, but it was a concert hall of some kind. Oh, I remember that, you know, shooting happened inside and when everybody tried to flee the doors opened

Sarah Davis 18:47

doors backwards, back, right? Instead of out correct. The legal in every state, but

Leighann Lovely 18:54

right getting into that, right. And I think that actually, I mean, this was many, many, many, many years ago, like really set the bar of if somebody walks into your facility, and those doors are opening the wrong way. Like you're immediately shut down like you cannot like that is just the stupidest thing in the world. And that was one of the I mean, that hit like it. I don't want to say international that hit National, absolute national news, because I think like hundreds of people died from trampling on each other. Trying to get out. So yeah,

Sarah Davis 19:32

because you know, the first few people couldn't open the doors at all. So where's everybody else gonna go? They're gonna start pushing. Correct. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 19:39

And just continue to push and push.

Sarah Davis 19:43

And there are still some cities that filat I don't know what the term is, but like grandfathered in, so that you don't know they're older buildings, they, they don't have to be brought up to code because they're historic or whatever. And so there are Some places like that, that aren't allowed to be event venues anymore, even use them for other things. But they can't be event venues because of those concerns,

Leighann Lovely 20:11

right. Which is, I mean, that seems like it's a no brainer. If you can't have certain can't have a certain amount of people in one area, if all of a sudden, there's going to be a mob trying to get out. And what I have seen it a lot of these larger venues or events is that they, you know, is having some of these entrances, they don't have real they don't have real walls per se, to get in. It's more like fences that can easily call down. Like if, if everybody needs to get out there fences that can actually be dropped so that people can come that a large amount of people can get out. And I've seen more and more places doing that. Because again, if people need to flee, the last thing that you want is people trampling each other killing each other while they're fleeing. I mean,

Sarah Davis 21:07

exactly. And some of those simple things can be pre planned for, right. In we we go through that, like, with the trampling thing, a lot of a lot of places, like you said, are coming up with the fence thing, the different options for easy exit, exits, and things like that. But it's honestly things that don't happen often that people don't plan for, and they can turn into a problem. I'm going to use a quick example here that just happened is about six months ago, there was a tornado here, around me and there was an indoor event, it was an indoor concert, a smaller venue, you know, kind of a local band type thing. Well, the people that had planned the event were on site, right? They just had like ticket takers and that sort of thing. And so a tornado watch warning, all of it came for a few hours beforehand, they're like this is happening. You need to you know, evacuate, everybody needs to record, no one had the authority to cancel the event. So the roof gets torn off people perished that day, all because no one had the authority to cancel the event. And that's one of the keys to some of these events is is canceling when you're supposed to and not putting your life and other people's life in danger. So weather is a big factor.

Leighann Lovely 22:33

Yeah. And that's scary. And you're right, if nobody at the actual event has the ability to cancel, everybody's looking at each other going well, what are we supposed to do? And that's interesting, I think you and I had talked about that when we initially met because I was at an event in a fully glass. It was you know, it was indoors, and all the walls were all glass. And as the tornado warnings, I remember the person who was running the event goes, guys, we have to get up. We're all going into the bathroom. And we're all like what, okay, and we ended up at and it was good. I mean, it was great, because there was no question it was with, you know, it was a chamber event that I was at, and it was just, everybody stand up. We're we're evacuating this room and is not safe. There wasn't a matter of whose authority we just all went, Okay. I mean, I took my lunch, right? And we all pout, we know, although there was not very many men, it was it was quite a few more women. We all went into the bathroom. Eventually the men were like, well, can we come in there? And we're like, yeah, why not? And we continued to have our meetings standing up all in the women's bathroom, because it lasted a long time. And it was like, well, we might as well. At least talk while we're on here. Correct. You know, and so I mean, and it got hot, and it and we ended up making a joke of it. And it, it was great. It was fine. And when it was over, we all went back into the other room finished our meeting, and it was something to talk about.

Sarah Davis 24:05

But I want to take a group photo in there. We did. We did. Okay, wonderful. Yeah, so make me feel better. And

Leighann Lovely 24:11

it was posted on LinkedIn, you know, wonderful meeting in the women's bathroom and blah, blah, blah. And you know, and it and it ended up being, you know, a talking point. But the point being is that, you know, somebody you know, was monitoring the weather events process, correct and eventually got to the point where it was like, Guys, this is not a safe room. We're, you know, on two full walls were was all glass. It's like this is not the room on a lovely sunny day.

Sarah Davis 24:40

It's the best room ever on a stormy tornado day. Not necessarily the best.

Leighann Lovely 24:46

Yeah, I don't want to go home with glass punctures throughout my entire body or not go home at all. Exactly. So. So give me an example of a how you make sure that event planners can be better prepared. But in situations that have, you know, gone wrong, because they didn't have somebody like you, and I know that you've kind of given me some examples, but, you know, even just like the simple, almost almost funny stuff that, that you've come across, where people are just like, oh, well, I didn't know that. I mean, just the.

Sarah Davis 25:19

Sure, sure. So first and foremost, is all about having conversations about, you know, where their event is, how many people they're expecting, what their setup is, we talk about all that stuff up front, so we can get an idea of what they're going to be going through. And, you know, we don't plan for hurricanes in North Dakota, right, we're not gonna plan for you know, I don't know, earthquakes in Michigan, I mean, maybe because there's technically a fault line somewhere there. But we're not going to write because on the average, that's not gonna happen. So we talked about the all hazards that impact there, but people do like there are funny things that happen that people just don't think about. And I'll give an example. This is 10 years ago, I was at an event and I show up, and there's 10, like those 12 by 12, white, like pop up tents that people put tables under. And they're all in a row. And people are going to each one of them picking up something and put it in a bag like it's a, you know, an event where you're filling up a bag with tchotchkes, and we were there for probably 30 minutes when all of a sudden this bright sunny day, had a gust of wind that blew every single tent. Nobody got hurt, but four cars had smashed windows. And I seriously to this day, I have a picture of it somewhere. I still laugh every time I see it, because literally they all just went because whoever set them up was like, oh, it's bright and sunny, and there's no wind, I don't have to attach them to the ground. Right?

Leighann Lovely 27:02

Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, if our audience could see as I'm putting my hand in my, or my head in my hand going, oh my god, you gotta be kidding me. Like, come on.

Sarah Davis 27:13

Those are the little things that we can remind people of in their plan. You're like, Okay, you're gonna have you know, 10 tents at your event, make sure that they are secured. Right. As you know, you're going to have a bouncy house, can we not be in the news with the kid flying out of the bouncy house because it got lifted up by the wind, right? And we laugh about it when kids aren't injured. Sometimes the kid could fall out. If the kid stays. It's funny. But if the kid pops out that it can it can be not funny. Right? And so, yeah, there's a lot of certain things like that, that happen that do tend to make people think, well, nobody got hurt, and how often can that happen? So why should I plan for it? And that's the wrong mentality to have, with those 10 tents when they were thrown into cars. All that would have taken was one kid to be in the wrong spot, right? And instead of that car window, it was a kid's head, right? And those are the reasons we plan for these things. And those are the reasons we get cool photographs in bathrooms, right? When people plan accordingly because everybody's safe. That's why I have a cool picture of tents, literally impaling cars, because no one was in was injured. And that's what I want.

Leighann Lovely 28:35

And it's funny that you bring that up, because every time you know, I every once in a while we'll go to like, you know, like a street days type thing. And I you know, I have some crafts that I sell. And every time I get irritated that I have to bring those sandbags to secure my tent, and I'm like, it's a beautiful day. Why do I have to do this, but they will make you take your tent down? If you have not brought the sandbags to secure your tent, and I'm always like, but

Sarah Davis 29:01

they've seen something like what I just described happen,

Leighann Lovely 29:04

correct? Somebody Yep, it's 10 flew into and you're, you know, you're on the street windows all behind you have all the businesses, I'm sure that they've seen it go through somebody's business window, or maybe worse, hurt somebody.

Sarah Davis 29:18

And possibly they're liable and not you which makes them have you adhere to those rules, right? Which, which is the the other thing, right, like, you know, once you sign on the dotted line when you're renting out a location or using a park or whatever that liability is now on you. And so when you go to those vendor fairs, the vendor organizer is the one that's liable for everything that happens right? So I mean, unless you purposely like hit somebody on something but if if an accident happens they're liable for it and an accident would be your tent moving

Leighann Lovely 29:53

right. So very interesting. I that is something again, that it's it's just not I thought about, like, it's just not one of those things that when you're going through all of the details, you're not thinking, Oh, this could happen, or oh, this could happen. Now, here's here's an interesting one. And this is not an event, but I witnessed something wildly interesting. Because again, I'm a very pragmatic, practical person. We go to the dog park, and we bring our five year old daughter, okay? Yes. Now, when we walk in there, we explained to our daughter, if dogs are growling, if they're barking, or if a whole clump of them get close to you, you slowly walk away and you get as close to mommy and daddy as possible. In some cases, we pick her up, because Sure, there isn't. Yeah, there. And we explain this to her as we walk in, right, we're, we're mitigating the risk factor of the of the fact that we are bringing our five year old daughter into a risky situation. But knowing that the majority of dogs that go to the dog park are dog friendly, and typically do not go after each other. So the other day, we're in there, and his dog was really excited to see our daughter and ran up and just stopped too, too short. And my daughter just went, boom, right on her butt. And, and the owner. The owner comes running over, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And my daughter's crying now because she was hurt. Because she was started. She started. We picked her up and I said it's not a problem. We brought our five year old to a dog park where we know some dogs get excited. It's not your it's not your fault. It's not your fault. It's not your fault. Now. We witnessed another situation where a woman wearing shorts that basically were underwear got scratched by another woman's dock. And she went ballistic. Completely ballistic on this other woman How dare your dog scratch me How dare your dogs? And I'm like,

Sarah Davis 32:06

You came to the park in booty shorts and expected what that you weren't gonna get scratched your own dog could have scratched you.

Leighann Lovely 32:16

Right? Right. You're you're wearing like you're not you have no protection on knowing that there's going to be dogs jumping on each other, jumping on your dog jumping all around. I just witnessed my daughter getting knocked over by a dog that was not non threatening. This dog was not threatening by any means just excited, too excited, just really excited and sweetest pie dog like, you know, we were petting her and my daughter after the little mini trauma that she experienced was petting and giggling with it. But this woman was I mean, just out of her mind angry that How dare her dog scratch her by accident, by the way. I mean, this was a jump up. And so I on a regular basis. Having a kid, I'm constantly looking around to mitigate, you know, the risk around her. But even percent, even being somebody who is constantly, you know, looking at risk versus reward. You know, in my own life, there is no way that I could possibly put all of the things that you're talking about into? I guess, you know, it's not my area of expertise. So right for me, it doesn't make any sense why somebody would that doesn't have experience wouldn't reach out to somebody like you, at least for like, Hey, Sarah, do you have a checklist? Do you have? I mean, do you go through? So do you tear your program on how engaged you you are going to be with people?

Sarah Davis 34:01

We do? So are what you're talking about, right? There would be our like, kind of first or, you know, whatever tier, we have a one hour spot you can you can get on a call with us. And literally just ask us any questions about safety that we can get done in an hour. You can we can provide you with a list of things that you should be, you know the basics of anywhere in the country that you should be looking at around safety, well, then you can get on this call and ask us whatever you want to ask us in any way shape or form. And then we go up from there because some people want an actual written out plan where they can go to a tab, you know, thing a happened, what do I do? Right? And and that's wonderful. A lot of people do want that. And that's something that we can provide an update, you know, yearly at their event or quarterly whenever they're about that happens. And then finally, our third option is where we actually come we do all those two first things, but then we're on site for your event to ensure that if something pops up that, you know, it's not in the book, or you don't want to handle it, and it is in the book or whatever, we will handle it on site.

Leighann Lovely 35:22

Awesome. And what is your background? Where did you know you run this business with? Your,

Sarah Davis 35:28

my partner, your partner life and my partner in the business?

Leighann Lovely 35:31

Okay, and what how did you you would send that you started this business because of you were at a, you know, event, but what got you like started? Obviously, you had a background had a background in this, right? Sure.

Sarah Davis 35:50

Yeah, a little bit, my partner has a lot more, my experience is more on the event side of things. And his is more on the emergency management side. So my background, my degree is in psychology, so I understand humans, I have a lot of experience in event planning around nonprofits, and then a lot of the nonprofit's I've worked with provided emergency services during emergency situations. And then more recently, I do have experience with emergency management with the Red Cross. And then my partner, his degree is in emergency management with innumerable experiences, and that roll off. So yeah,

Leighann Lovely 36:32

so you guys are right, exactly where you need to be.

Sarah Davis 36:36

I like to think so. Yeah, we have all the experience that we need. And we're, you know, we're willing to give that to people, we want it to help people make their events safer. We're not trying to get keep the information by any shape of the imagination. And like I said, you know, we we do this hands on, there are other companies out there that I, I will refer people to also, to get checklists, and some training, some online things, there are great companies out there. But if you're looking for that one on one approach, where you can actually ask questions, and be engaged in the process, and learn, then then that's where you, that's where you come to us, we make sure that we walk you through the process, and you will feel comfortable at your event and safe at your event.

Leighann Lovely 37:24

What do you think is the number one thing that you have come across when it comes to, you know, the threat?

Sarah Davis 37:35

So I'm gonna say it's two different things. So an actual threat, that's an all hazards concept that people don't think about is the weather, they don't really think about how that impacts an event. And I don't even mean necessarily injuries or your your actual attendees. But if you don't plan ahead, you might lose. You know, items, like when you're unloading things from a car, or you're trying to bring in your catering, right, things like that can all be impacted by the weather if you don't have a plan for it. Right. And I think whether is the lease plan for item, that, because people just think, Oh, well, if it's a tornado, I'll get in the bathroom, if you know, if it's a rainstorm, I'll run real quick, right? But you know, they don't really think about the impact of it. And that's something that we can we can all learn more on. And we can all plan a little bit better for. But I think the biggest barrier that people have, when planning is honestly the thought in their head. And I mentioned this maybe once or twice so far is people think it'll never happen to them. Yeah, or, more often I hear it well. I mean, the fire department signed off on capacity, and I'll just call 911. That's all we got to do, right? No, no, that is not all you have to do. And, and that, to me is kind of scary. When people are in that mentality. It's kind of like telling somebody they need therapy. You can't just go look somebody in the head and be like, you need therapy. They're gonna clam up and be like, No, right? That's not me. I'm, I'm perfectly fine, right? We all need therapy. We all need therapy, right? But you can't just go flick somebody in the head and be like, you need therapy. Right? Right. So it's the same thing with talking about safety at events. You can't just walk up to an event and be like, Wow, do you realize the unsafe things I see here, right. And so you have to go about it a little bit differently and educate through you know, social media, some different ways to get people to understand that they need the services and word of mouth. Word of mouth is a big key,

Leighann Lovely 39:53

right? Yeah. We are on a default setting of it'll never happen. And to me, you know, and a lot of events, you know, will say, we are having this event rain or you know, rain or shine, it's it's going to happen. And then, you know, you get out there and you're like, Wow, this is really not just rain, this is, you know, sideways, sideways, gusts of sheets of water that are hitting and pelting me in the face. And you realize maybe this wasn't such a good idea.

Sarah Davis 40:27

Right? Right. And in, those are the things that, you know, it'll make you second guessed going next year, versus if they would just say, you know, hey, our event is getting moved by a week, or we're canceling it, because of the weather because we want you to be safe, dry and happy. I'll go back the next year. If I go to an event where I'm a drowned rat, by the end, I'm gonna second guess, going next year, right?

Leighann Lovely 40:53

second guessing whether or not I want to sign up because it cost me you know, 100 bucks to go and I lose that money if I don't because it's rain or shine, shine or sun or water. I don't. Right. Right. Right. And that's it. Yeah. And in, in the state of well, and here's the other thing, people think, well, you know, I can call emergency services, but we here just recently experienced, you know, a storm in which calling Emergency Services wasn't an option, because we had trees down, like on every block. Sure. And they they were being called by everybody. Which means that there wasn't enough emergency services. I mean, it shut off. It took a month for them to clean up. It took two days for them to get the power back on this little tap was this last year? Yeah, yeah, I think it was last year, I was sitting in a pocket I live in in Franklin, Wisconsin, I was sitting in a pocket where we had no power for two days.

Sarah Davis 42:08

So, you know, if you're calling 911, every three hours wasn't gonna help? No. I mean, no, they can only have so many people working on electricity at any given point, correct?

Leighann Lovely 42:22

No, we were we were lucky that people were prepared. You know, and we didn't have you know, around. And I'm not talking about an event, I'm just talking about a huge individual, you know, individual huge. But if you were at an event during that time period, there was so much chaos happening all over the place that emergency services would not have helped at that point, because

Sarah Davis 42:49

you were not the priority. And event was not the priority when there were individuals, old young, whatever, there's, there's a triage impact of what happens when people call 911, right? People think it's when when large scale events happen, people think well, I called first they're gonna come to me first live in some fantasy world, go ahead. Well, you don't have power for two days, you could live in your fantasy, right? It doesn't work like that. They're going to help the older people, they're going to help the younger people, they're going to help the people that need to get out of their home, not the people that can stay there for a little bit without electricity. And, yeah, and also, I mean, we lived for centuries, upon centuries without electricity and running water in the house. You know, we need to start thinking about planning ahead and making sure that you have a few key elements in your house. So include, you don't have to cook. You know what I mean? Some food, well, sometimes gas doesn't get cut off. But sometimes that can throw a wrench in it too, when there's trees down and things like that. It can impact gas lines, and but you know, have water have, you know, bottles of water someplace that are easily accessible and things like that it can really make a difference.

Leighann Lovely 44:09

Yeah. Yep. Well, Sarah, this has been an awesome conversation. We're coming to time. So I want to ask you the question of the season. What do you Yes? I'm asking everybody this this season. What do you think will go down in the history book books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Sarah Davis 44:31

Okay. So I'm assuming we're beyond just talking about COVID and how we react to pandemics because I think the world learned a few lessons on that. But I'm going to say something that will go down in the history books from what we experienced over the last three years is that we we don't You need to have eight to five jobs to be successful in the world. And, and by that, I mean, so many people switched their their thought processes over, over COVID. But we started working remotely hybrid from home at night when the kids were asleep because we had to do school with them during the day. You know, a variety of things happened. And while a lot of people are trying to get us to go back into the, the office atmosphere, I don't think it's ever going to happen thoroughly. Again, I think we learned our lesson, that productivity does not mean clapping. And from eight to five.

Leighann Lovely 45:47

Awesome. Awesome. Excellent. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Sarah Davis 45:54

Sure. So event safety plus.com. If you want to get to me directly, it's event safety plus.com backslash Sarah Sarah with an H. And that'll get you to all of my links. And then obviously, the website there, you can sign up for our services and send out that first consultation call.

Leighann Lovely 46:14

Excellent. Sarah, this has been such an amazing eye opening and education, educational conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and joining me today.

Sarah Davis 46:23

It was fun. And you were right. The Time flew. So I love it. Thank you. Yeah, you have a

Leighann Lovely 46:30

great day. You too. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, event, plan, happen, talking, event planners, exits, tornado, year, experience, kid, emergency services, dog, call, responsibility, coming, tables, situation, started, cars

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Andrea Herran is an amazing business owner, that works to simply HR for her clients so they can say focused on what matters to them, their business. Join us as we talk about how much human resources has changed and continues to evolve as a profession.

Contact Andrea

LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/focushr

Website – http://FocusHR.biz

Phone number – (773)531-8199

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Andrea Herran is the Founder and CEO of Focus HR. Andrea developed a passion for Human Resources and Leadership from the beginning of her career. One thing she noticed in her corporate leadership roles was that she could really you see the good, bad and the ugly from her managers and employees. Overcoming the bad and ugly was a challenge she would take on, and discovering how to take the good to great, made a lasting impression on Andrea. She brings those insights to her audiences, her clients, and her own team each day.

Andrea has over 30 years of professional HR experience. Early in her career she was fortunate enough to work both inside and outside the USA, in four different countries the US, Argentina, Mexico and South Africa. She enjoys sharing her business strategies, adventures, and experiences with audiences around the globe.

Andrea is a sought-after international speaker, top HR, Leadership and growth consultant, and exceptional author. After 30 years of helping businesses grow, and expand their teams successfully, she is now renowned for her ability to bring out the excellence in every team. With degrees in business and psychology and vast experience working with companies with less than 100 employees. Andrea has worked with teams in the United States, Mexico, and South America and much more.

“Your company will grow as fast as you and your people do. To create a competitive advantage, invest in your people now” says Herran.

She and her team help companies build a culture-driven company that the best and brightest want to be a part of and stay in forever.

Andrea’s forthcoming book is called The People Success Code for CEO’s: 9 Secrets to rapid growth, a winning culture, and uncomplicating the people side of business.

Welcome Andrea, I am so excited to have you join me today.

Andrea Herran 03:21

Well, thank you for having me. I'm excited. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 03:23

Why don't you start off by telling everyone a little bit about yourself and your background?

Andrea Herran 03:29

Oh, sure. I'm Andrea Herran owner of Focus HR, I have been doing human resources now for 35 years.

Leighann Lovely 03:42

You don't look old enough to have been doing human resources for 35 years. By the way.

Andrea Herran 03:47

Thank you so much. I love that. I'm a mom of two teenage boys. So that keeps me young. I started focus HR about 17 years ago. And for work life balance. That was my main thing you know, and I wanted to keep doing human resources. And as I've grown and added to my team, for me, it's been really important that my team also has that work life balance, and it's worked out. Great. So as you can tell, I do run my company based on my values and so forth. I also recommend that to all businesses to do that because it makes life a lot easier. And like I said entrepreneur for 17 years, I am the daughter of an entrepreneur, I am the granddaughter of entrepreneurs and the great great granddaughter of an entrepreneur, so it's actually my great great grandmother that gives up the entrepreneurial spirit in my family. Oh wow.

Leighann Lovely 04:53

very forward thinking. Woman in the family.

Andrea Herran 04:58

Yes, especially in the 1920s and 30s right. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 05:02

yes, that's and that's when you say great, great, great, great grandmother? Or great, great, great, great

Andrea Herran 05:09

grandmother. Okay. Well,

Leighann Lovely 05:11

yeah, definitely a very forward thinking woman at that time, because that typically wasn't something that a woman would have done at that at that time. So that's, that's absolutely awesome. So your, your business focus HR is, you and I have spoken about it before it focuses really you have kind of three main buckets of things that you do. Is that correct?

Andrea Herran 05:32

Yep, three buckets. Typically, for businesses that have less than 100 employees. One is like a helpline, you know, for the folks that just want to, like, ask questions, get answers, you know, oh, my god, I can't believe Fred did this. You know, Wilma did that, you know, how do I handle it? I heard something on the news. You know, I heard about a new law or regulation being passed, what does this mean for me to projects, you know, I need a handbook, I need a performance management system, I need an audit, I don't even know if what I'm doing is the right thing or not, you know, it's, I actually get that quite a bit. And then lastly, is, you know, what, just let us take care of HR for you, we will handle it, we will work with you, you know, on strategy, and so forth. But we will implement, we will be the contact for your managers for your employees. So they always have someone to reach out to and we will handle it all. And so in this is how I came up with the name, focus, HR, let us focus on the HR so you can focus on the business.

Leighann Lovely 06:41

And that's awesome. Because there are so many, you know, and again, not to self promote myself, but it is it's the reason I came up with my business, because business owners don't go into business to be HR professionals, right? And yeah, and they don't have, they don't have the knowledge to know how. There's, there's a lot of complex things in HR. So outsource it, to make it not complex, and to make sure that you're getting everything done that needs to be done, right. crossing your T's dotting your eyes, so that you're not missing anything so that even and people don't realize this after you've hired on your first employee, you need to have an employee handbook. Yep. And a lot of people go why I have one employee. Yeah, you have one employee.

Andrea Herran 07:35

Exactly. And you know, in our tagline is uncomplicated, the people side of business. And then you talk about that one employee, people, I only have one employee, what they forget is that once you get that first employee, you know, it's not too far. Typically, it's not too much longer, that you get a second or a third or a fourth. And we actually, when people know they're about to hire, that's when I actually like to do the handbook. Because we've talked about all now like working on handbooks, that's so much, you know, because I think they need this big document. But it's the conversations that we have in order to make it work for that. You know, what do you want to do about holidays? How do you want to handle vacation time off PTO, and 401k benefits? You know, we go through all of this stuff, you know, I'm not going to go into all the details, because nobody likes that.

Leighann Lovely 08:35

I do actually. Which makes me yes,

Andrea Herran 08:38

There's a few of us that gets a little crazy about that. But by having that conversation before you didn't hire your first employee. Because inevitably, what happens is when you're recruiting and you're interviewing people, guess what they're going to ask you, right? What's your time off policy? Which holidays? Do you observe? Are they paid? Are they unpaid? already? You know, how? What about benefits? Instead of saying, Mm hmm. Right? You've actually thought about it. And by having thought about it ahead of time and having a policy that's at least a baseline people automatically see you as more established, more professional and more put together. But in reality could be totally different.

Leighann Lovely 09:24

They won't know that you're completely a mess. So and again, a lot of you know especially first time entrepreneurs, me, first time entrepreneur really, you know, get those are things that you don't you don't realize, you know, right now you're just winging it. You're trying to just make everything work. You're just trying to put all the pieces together frantically trying to, you know, get everything going. And so working with somebody like you that goes, Wait a second, you're going to hire somebody, well, they're going to ask these questions. They're going to want to know they're going to want to come into they don't Want to work for a business, that's unless it's a good friend that you're hiring there, they want to work for a business that they're going to be confident is going to be there in a year, they're going to be confident is going to be able to pay the bills, they're going to be confident that knows their vacation policy, are they going to be paid for the Fourth of July? Are they going to be paid for Christmas? Those are things that a lot of entrepreneurs that when they're in the, you know, the, just the, I'm trying to come up with in

Andrea Herran 10:30

the month of it, the muck of it, that red, it doesn't come into,

Leighann Lovely 10:33

right, because they're not being paid for holidays, they're not getting, you know, vague, they. So working with somebody like you to, you know, basically help get them focused on those important things is is extremely important to a successful hire. Now, absolutely.

Andrea Herran 10:56

And I've been down the road myself, because I started by myself wearing all the hats doing everything, you know, now I'm grateful I've got a team of seven that support me. And so I understand that the decisions the you know, but can I afford it? Or what does that mean? And how do I do that? And something that people forget, you know, sometimes as entrepreneurs is like, Oh, can we try making so much and then I can hire somebody? Yes, that's great. But what they also forget, is what it means to them to let go while they let go, how they handle that off, off to somebody else. And how they make sure that they haven't totally lost control. But actually find that that psychological change for many is harder,

Leighann Lovely 11:52

right?

Andrea Herran 11:53

Oh, process procedures, I get that, you know, step we've got to do this, we got to do that, you know, it's something definitive, it's black and white, right? The letting go of what I used to do and give it to somebody else to do. How do I deal with that? And we will talk through that we will go through that. What do you need to know, you know, what would make you feel comfortable besides an update every five minutes,

Leighann Lovely 12:15

right? Oh, I'm already fearing that I haven't even gotten close to a point in which I'm going to be able to hire somebody and I'm always I'm already going, Oh, my God, well, nobody else can do it. Like I can do it. Not that I'm even that amaze. I'm not I'm not putting myself on a pedestal. I'm just like, Well, how do I train somebody to do this? Oh, gosh, Leanne, get off your pedestal get off your you know, nobody is everybody's replaceable. I remind myself that on a regular basis, regularly that nothing that I do cannot be done by somebody else. But a lot of us get to a point where it's like, it's just easier to do it myself than it is to try to. And that's such the such a backwards thinking. So backwards. Because I'm, I'm, I'm more than happy to say hey, somebody come in and do my book, somebody come and do my, because I don't know how to do it. Which means that there are multiple other things that I could just simply say, hey, come in and do this. Because every there are multiple people out there that are better, or, you know, much better at all of the different tasks that I do. I just happened to you know, yeah. So very good point. Very good point.

Andrea Herran 13:33

Okay, so it's figuring out how to train them, you know, and onboarding, you know, and what that does is that goes back to onboarding. And people think of onboarding as this like this one time, one hour event when somebody starts, and it's like, well, yeah, if you just count paperwork, but paperwork is you got to get it done. Because the paperwork mostly is needed to get them paid, right? You know, it's getting them in the payroll system, and all that kind of stuff. But onboarding, the first few weeks of somebody's employment, will set the pace for how long they stay. So the more interactive, the more supports that you're showing, the more training that you're doing, you're ensuring that they're catching on, you know, you do that heavily in the first couple of weeks, they will stay with you a long time. If you just throw them into the deep end and say, Hey, good luck. I'll see you later. Guess what, right? They're not going to be around right? for that long. So, is it more complicated, more time consuming more of a, you know, some people may think of it as a headache to spend all this time training with somebody up front. But you have to realize that what you spend now is often dividends in the long term, right.

Leighann Lovely 14:57

And that is that is it is hard for a lot of people, a lot of businesses to wrap their head around that. I have seen it because I come from the recruiting world that businesses are I just don't have time to train somebody right now we just don't have time to train somebody right now. Okay, you don't have time to train somebody, where are you going to be in six months, you're going to be further behind than you are right now. But if you were to put in the tube for six weeks now, where are you going to be in six months from now. And they just don't think of, it's the immediate, I need this done immediately, I need this done immediately, okay. But in six months from now, you're still going to be living in the I need this done immediately, I need this done immediately, you're still going to be constantly behind and behind and behind him behind. You need to think of big picture. And a lot of companies really struggle with that big picture of let me get somebody in, we're going to maybe fall behind. But by the time we get this person up and running and trained, we're going to catch up. And then we're going to actually be on time, we're going to actually be able to keep up with the work and not constantly be running two steps behind all the work that's building up. And I've I've struggled with that, as a recruiter constantly, where they're just like, Yeah, we're gonna hold off right now I'm pulling the trigger, because we don't have time. Okay, are you gonna have time in two weeks? Nope. Three weeks? Nope. a month?

Andrea Herran 16:20

Nope. Because you're always going to have less time. Correct? Because they're doing it all themselves.

Leighann Lovely 16:25

Right. And that's, it's such a frustration for people who are trying to work with companies that are always and you cannot talk sense into somebody who is like always in that reactive mode, versus being in that proactive mode? Because that reactive is that that fear mode? And it's it's, yeah, anyways, I digress.

Andrea Herran 16:54

No, it's and it's true. And the thing is, too, is I look back when I first started in human resources, so many years ago, everything had to be done, you know, in person live next to them, because computers were just starting, right? You know, right. I mean, I remember writing training sessions with the overhead projectors, and taking off the acetate Do you notice right topics. And now with all the tools that are available, and a lot of them are free, so it's not a cost issue. But you can start creating videos, especially the things that, you know, you're going to be repeating all the time, and I just did this for my own business. You know, nobody owes more than five minutes, used Canva, which you can use for free, you know, do a slideshow. And it's me explaining, you know, what the company is all about, I've got another one telling them about, you know, who our ideal client is, and the kind of work that we do. And another one about mindset. Because I've noticed, took me a while to figure this out. But I figured it out eventually, that I had to deal with, you know, people that I hired, were coming from being in house HR, and now being consultants in that mind shift, mindset shift that they needed to be a consultant. So I spend time talking about that, you know, and I found this so much easier. You know, because I could do it. For the videos, when I had time. Some of them were recorded late at night, some of them early in the morning. And then they could review it when they were ready to look at it. You know, and it's like, Okay, once you finish looking at all the videos, let me know, and then we will hop on a call to discuss. And it is made onboarding new team members. So much easier, right? With, you know, and they always have access to it. So once they start working with a client, they said, Yeah, I had to go back and then I'm like, okay, that's what I got to remember. You know, and

Leighann Lovely 19:01

right. Well, yeah, the world of technology allows us to, and as long as those videos are not because I've been at some companies where it's like, okay, you're gonna watch this eight hours of these videos. And you're like, wow, my first you know, my first day my first and you're like, eight hours of an I will tell you within the first hour, your brain is checked out. It's boom, you're you're no longer taking no, right. But those are those are absolutely great. And for, you know, in your world, if you're, you know, working with a business and they're like, Hey, we just need a quick like, how do we do this paperwork properly? How do we do this properly? That's a great tool to be able to offer a client where especially forms you know, your I nine forms, for instance, those are, you know, forms that are like, you come in and get audited by the government and they're like Nope, nope, sorry, there is not a dash in the right place, or there's not a number there's or it's missing, or it's not in the right format or whatever. You're like, okay, yeah. Right, you have to have those exact, like, here's a quick two minute, here's the right form, you know, way to do it, here's the wrong way to do it, and still have obviously, you know, be audited by you on a regular basis as a service and that kind of thing. But those are, you know, those are great ways to do that kind of stuff. So,

Andrea Herran 20:31

I do, like, you know, one of the things that we also do, one of the projects is we'll help people move to a new payroll system. Usually, they're going from something really basic, just that they're more robust. And they'll be like, Well, how do I do this? So instead of trying to write an email, or call them and say, okay, click here, do you see that button? Okay, no, no, it's the one next to that. I can record a quick screenshot video. Send it to them, they have access to it today, tomorrow, a week from now a month from now, whatever. And I always get back the same response. So like, Thank you, this is so much easier, I can see exactly what you're looking at what you're pointing at. And when people have looked at a multiple times, because especially if it's things they don't do often, right? You know, yes, I can fill out an i nine form blindfolded. Because I've done it way too many times. Right, we audit on it. But I get it your business, you may do it once every six months. Right. You know, so yeah, if I create a video for you, I want you to have access to it. And you can always see how to do it and refer back to it.

Leighann Lovely 21:41

Right. Yeah, I used to think you know, that I used to have people filling out those. I used to fill up three i nines a day, sometimes more in the staffing world, it was like, it was ridiculous. So but a business again, some businesses hire one person a year. Some more No, nowadays. Yeah. So. So obviously, as an HR professional, for as long as you've been, you've seen the good, the bad, the ugly, you you bring that up in your you know, in your bio. So do you think that, you know, things are getting better? Do you think that we are headed towards things getting better in in the way that that HR handles things? When it comes? I guess? I guess that's a tough question. Because we can't see the future, we can't predict the future. But with everything that has happened, obviously, with cultural shifts with people being more, you know, companies trying to be more sensitive, more inclusive. Where do you see this, you know, going over the next couple of years.

Andrea Herran 22:56

You know, what it's, I'm going to really simplify it. Because there's, there's so many nuances to it, right? But what's going to happen is, first of all human resources, as a profession, is really starting to come into its own now. Yes, companies have had you human resource companies for you know, 50 years or whatever. But there wasn't always a seat at the table. You know, and it was getting a little bit more attention, the pandemic, you know, for this good, bad and ugly, really brought, people started to realize the value of HR, to the company and to its employees, and what their employees mean, and how to take care of their employees. Even if they're a curmudgeon, that's like, you know, especially thankful they have a job kind of person. They still needed to do it the right way, and they still needed to make sure that their employees were taken care of. So HR came to the forefront, because we understood what the laws were saying, we were understanding what the programs were saying. We understood each state handled it differently. You know, so it's, we're at the table, and is, as long as the rest of the C suite, executive leadership owner, depending on the size of the the organization listens to HR and values, HR and HR brings value. You know, you can't, nobody can have a seat at the table if they don't bring value. Right. And they bring that value, you will see it change. You know, each generation of employees, you know, because somebody had asked me it's like, oh, yeah, but Gen Z has got to be the worst. You know, for example, like they said, What about the boomers? They said that about Gen X, they said that about the millennials. Now it's Gen Z's turn, every new generation is considered the worst. Right? Or entitled, or too demanding, you know, and it's just because they are different. And we also need to realize that as a generation, are the one that brought into this world, the following generations, right, going to complain about them, you kind of got to look at yourself.

Leighann Lovely 25:28

We created them. Exactly. Go look in the mirror.

Andrea Herran 25:34

Yeah, you know, as a Gen X, raising Gen Z. You know, when people talk about Gen Z, I'm like, Well, yeah, because I'm raising them, like I was raised, and my generation was raised, because Gen Z is closest to Gen X. Right? As far as the way they look at things. I mean, there's obvious differences, but they're the closest, and Gen Z is is no BS kind of policy, you know, I think is refreshing, you know, I, I,

Leighann Lovely 26:02

when it comes to the Generate, I think this new generation coming into the workforce is amazing. Yeah, I think they are absolutely. Like, they just want to know, like their spot. Do they have a spot at the company? And will you teach me? Will you allow me to grow? Will you train me? Will you give me what I need to grow? Because that's the expectation they have. They don't want to just be a flash in the pan. And I think that that's, I think that's amazing. Because if you look at millennials, they were just like, this powerhouse coming in being like, Hey, I'm here, now. Promote me. And it was like, what? And again, I'm,

Andrea Herran 26:49

that's the everybody gets a trophy generation. Correct. Everybody gets a trophy.

Leighann Lovely 26:54

And I'm part of that I'm at the very, very tail end of that generation. I participate in the, you know, in soccer, I got a trophy. So you know, here I am, give me a trophy. I participated. But now we have a generation of, you know, stop, you know, thinking that you're gonna get a pat on the back for showing up. And they're like, oh, okay, so I have to put forth the effort. So they're putting forth the effort. But they're asking for it. They're asking, I would like to get training. I would like to be a part of this community. I would like to, and everybody's complaining, oh, man, they need hand holding. No, they don't. They don't need to handle they need to be tained.

27:36

They want in the deep end. Correct. That's what people that's what it's supposed

Leighann Lovely 27:40

to happen. They're supposed to, they're not supposed to act like a millennial and be like, Yep, I'm here. Don't bother me. Just give me the promotion, and the money. And I'm out the door at five o'clock. I don't want that employee. I want the one who comes in and goes, I want to learn, I want to grow, but you have to show me how to do it. And why are people complaining about this?

Andrea Herran 28:05

Because previous generations would just suffer in silence. Here's the thing, you know, even with millennials, they were the first ones to say give me feedback. Yep. You know, they were the give me feedback generation. So it's like I talked to people now I got they're always wanting feedback. And I'm like, didn't you when you first started? And they're like, Well, yeah, and I go, so the only difference with this generation is they're vocalizing what you didn't feel comfortable saying, right? Gen Z is the same thing. We all want it to be trained. We all wanted to be given direction. For whatever reason, we didn't say it and they're saying it. They want to have a purpose. They want to know how they fit in to the organization. Right? Personally, I'm so glad to see that because I've been preaching that companies do that. I'm like, people need to know where they fit in. I've been preaching it for eons. Everybody's always wanted to know, what's the difference? Gen Z is vocalizing it right? Where's the rest of us? We're just thinking and going. That would be so nice.

Leighann Lovely 29:08

Wouldn't it be nice if somebody would tell me what I'm supposed to do and how I'm doing it?

Andrea Herran 29:13

Yeah, exactly. So it's funny because people bring that up. And I'm like, you know. But everybody's always wanted these things, right. But they're vocalizing it, where they're going a step further, is Gen Z also wants their companies to take more of a social stat. That is where life gets complicated. Right? But it doesn't have to be, you know, companies like individuals can have their own beliefs. You know, if your belief is I am not going into that, you know, hey, we know what we do. We have a great time we service our clients, we produce our products, whatever it is that we do, we don't do so stance, that's fine, just let them know. And then they can decide whether or not they want to be there. Right? If you do take a social stance, let them know what, where that is. Right? And what is it? Is it about a particular cause? Is it a philosophy in general? You know, I'm trying to avoid politics, but right, that kind of falls in there. But people are okay with it. Because everybody falls along the spectrum that's not, you know, people try to think of things as you know, it's either blue or it's red, it's not, you know, there's purple. And but people just wanted to know, because they want to be part of companies or organizations that share their values. So the more you share your values as a company, and what it is that you stand for, and what you want to be known as they will, they will self select in or out of the company, which verbally during the recruitment process, and not after they've started and taking your time. Correct.

Leighann Lovely 30:57

And I think that a lot of the old school companies choose to not do that, because they don't want. They don't want to exclude talent, they don't want to exclude possibility of an end, the younger generation doesn't quite under some of them don't understand that yet. Because it is taking a risk. Because if especially if they are falling on the line of any political things. Yeah. And and I think that in business, it's, it's smart to stay out of the political arena. Because you can, especially nowadays, with how volatile you know, it can get out there. But you're right, I think that a lot of them, they also want to be able to take part in, in volunteer work, they also want something that that was not a thing. I mean, it was a thing, but it wasn't as important of a thing when I was, especially in my early career, that was not even, I mean, occasionally a company would say, Okay, we're going to have this, we're doing this event, we're all going to do it together, and we're going to go volunteer, or there was a Christmas tree that you know, you had a tag on it, that you could go and you could buy gifts, and then you wrap them and you put them under the tree, and then they donate them. That was the extent of any company that I had ever worked at getting involved in, in anything. And then now the rise of you know, companies saying, Hey, we're going to do this fundraiser, or we're going to do this event, and we're going to raise funds and all of the funds are going to go to we're going to vote on which you know, which

Andrea Herran 32:42

charity charity, we want to support. Correct. And that's,

Leighann Lovely 32:45

that's absolutely amazing, you're seeing more and more individuals want to get involved in their community be part of their community, not just on a social basis, but on a way to give back. And that is that is the rise of this generation coming in that they really want to be involved. They want to give back, which is awesome. And that is the doing of their parents, that is part of the way that their parents have instilled in them on giving back. And, and being verbal in

Andrea Herran 33:13

the school systems. A lot of schools you have to have volunteer hours to graduate. And people found that they enjoyed volunteering,

Leighann Lovely 33:20

right, right. And being more vocal, I mean, I am very diligent with I have a five year old, I'm very diligent, my audience knows this. Probably bring her up and my dog multiple times per episode. Um, my dog is evil. He's still a puppy. He's not evil. Sometimes he's evil, anyways, especially when he eats my sandals. Yeah, that it's my fault for leaving them where he can eat them isn't as, okay. So he's not evil, it's just my fault. Being more vocal, that is also the result of the parents telling kids you know, I tell my daughter all the time, it is okay to be mad. Absolutely. Okay to be mad, it's okay to be sad. It's okay to be angry. But it's not okay to start screaming at mommy and telling her you know that she hates her and that she's gonna go in her room and never come out or that she's going to, you know, all these other random things that come out of a five year olds mouth that I'm like, where did she even learn that? And, again, got to look back at the parent, right? But it's because of the parents realizing that they didn't have the voice that a lot of kids growing up, you know, if I threw a fit my parents were like, That's naughty. And, you know, go to your room. I wasn't told that it's okay to have these emotions because they weren't allowed to have you know, there was a time when if you were a boy and you cried, everybody was like, boys don't cry. Well, what, what is that doing to the psyche? I mean,

Andrea Herran 34:56

which has caused which has caused mental health issues and it And I am so thankful that mental health has become more top of mind. You know, it's as a person who has reviewed health care and benefit plans for the last, you know, 30 odd years, I would see mental health would get like, many amounts, yep. Which still basically puts the whole burden on the employee to, to pay for it in now, through legislation through people realize it's, for example, it took legislation to get there. But I think insurance companies, for example, you know, the healthcare insurance companies have finally realized that preventative medicine, in the long run is cheaper, bright and better than trying to cure somebody after it's too late.

Leighann Lovely 35:51

Now, if we can get the doctors on board, sorry, this is my slam, if we can get the doctors on board to stop handing out painkillers, when somebody goes and says, I have, you know, chronic headaches instead of saying, Oh, here's some medication for your headaches and have them actually go. Well, let's figure out why you have chronic headaches. Yeah. I mean, let's let's, because let's take the preventative because I can tell you that my chronic headaches went away when I got adjusted, you know, my back got addressed, adjusted with my chiropractor, boom, I used to have a headache every day, at three o'clock, every day. I started seeing a chiropractor, and I don't have headaches at all anymore. So let's start it. And again, I've been on medication for years for chronic migraines. And I'm wondering, now can I get off that medication? Anyways, I digress. So if we can get if we can get that aligned, but you're right, on the on the mental health, you know, I was at one time paying $1,500 a month for my medications at a time period in my life where I could not afford that. Right? Luckily enough, you know, we still have, you know, drug companies out there that assist with individuals who have mental health problems or who are diagnosed with chronic mental health, my my being bipolar disorder, and for so for a year, they were able to give me my medications for free. But there are there are individuals out there, you know, we need to focus on chronic diagnoses people who were born with something, diabetes, all of these things that people that are born and come into the world who are diagnosed this is, you know, again, this is an entirely another conversation that we could have about, you know, the the medical fields on on the way that health care plans are put together. You know, I'm I'm born, I get diagnosed with something that I didn't ask for, and then you are the person who ends up paying. And you know what, I think epi pens at one point were, like, $800 is

Andrea Herran 38:10

ridiculous. Yeah, I know. It's good for like a month or two. So right, the keychains.

Leighann Lovely 38:15

Right. So again, I when it comes to I'm glad that you know, preventative medicine has finally caught up mental health, the site of mental health has finally caught up on all of those things getting better.

Andrea Herran 38:30

I think it's still so more to do to really catch up, but it's getting better. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 38:35

yeah, it's those are absolutely, we've completely gone off on a tangent from HR.

Andrea Herran 38:42

But you know, what, this is, this is what I love about HR, you know, because for us, the day to day can be talking about we can go from handbooks to what do we pay people to health insurance, how to use the health insurance, why does not cover this, you know, the mental health, you know, but what about this and that to performance, and I call this I've always been an HR generalist, because I always say I like having my hands and Oh, cookie jars. And I like and I enjoy that variety. Every day, I can easily just go from one topic to the next to the next and then back again. And you know, and some more. That's to me what makes HR exciting, right?

Leighann Lovely 39:25

And that's why I love you obviously wouldn't have a podcast if I didn't love talking and having conversations like this, like it's, there's, there's so much that goes into it. And on a regular basis. I'm sure you're having conversations with your clients when it comes to all of these different things of the best, you know, health insurance plan and then the next conversation is your employee handbooks and an audit and so but before we run out of time, I do want to ask you the next question that I had, you know, ready for you which is, you know, there are A lot of mistakes that can happen when it comes to HR. But what do you think the biggest mistake employers make that can easily be fixed when it comes to dealing with the HR world? I know it's a loaded question. And

Andrea Herran 40:16

I'm totally oversimplifying this. No, it's to make a point. You know, in kindergarten, we all learn the rules of being in kindergarten. If you don't have anything nice to say, you don't say, Keep your hands to yourself. You know, be polite, be respectful, right? Think if we just keep those rules that we learned in kindergarten, in our adult lives, and as we manage people and work with people, you're going to be great, you've got 80 80% of it is there. The other 20% is just fine tuning to maybe a few laws or whatever, you know, for example, it drives me crazy, that we actually still have to give people sexual harassment training. It drives me crazy, because why do we still have to be talking to people about don't touch people? Don't keep asking them out, telling them that they're beautiful, and you'd like to do whatever with them is inappropriate. I mean, honestly, folks, I laugh crazy.

Leighann Lovely 41:24

I laugh because it seems so simple at the idea that, hey, you're in a work environment. Don't do that. Yeah, but you still have to tell people, hey, that's inappropriate. I know. Can you believe it? I know.

Andrea Herran 41:48

I know, they can't see me. But I'm like,

Leighann Lovely 41:49

I know you're making you're making like that your arms are going all over the place, and you're making faces. It's i I completely agree with you. It's what seems to you and me, and probably 75% of the people listening to this, and I say 75, which seems like a low number, but it really, it's not. No, I even would, it seems like an obvious thing. However, there was a client that I had years and years ago, it was a golf course, when I said you have out you have to, on a regular basis have, you know, complaints when it comes to you know, you know, you have these young individuals going out on these golf carts selling boots, I got to assume you get a lot of complaints from, you know, the the beer cart individuals, and I'm going to use individuals, a lot of us are thinking in their head, you know, what I'm avoiding saying, because at one time it was predominantly females who did that job. It is not, you know, again, and I said, you know, they've got to get harassed a lot by you know, the, the young golfers and the guy goes, Oh, no, no, no, and no. And they went, Oh, okay, great. That's good. He goes, No, they don't get harassed by the young golfers. The old ones, and I went, Oh, he goes all the time. Non stop. It is all of the old golfers. And I went what? Oh, because it was a generational thing. Yeah. And I went, Ah, crap. How did I miss that? i How did I not catch on to that? The younger generation coming up, understand that they understand that you can't make a comment. Hey, you look hot in that outfit. It's inappropriate. A generational my grandpa to this day will still make comments about you know, not obviously not me. But he'll stay still make comments. You know, if we're at a at a restaurant, oh, she's a cute one. And I'm like, Oh, God, but he's in his 70s. You know, and he's not making it to her. He's not making her uncomfortable. But that was a generational thing. They they, it's unfortunate. But in that generation, and unfortunately, there are still a lot of and I'm not gonna say just men it it is not just in the men bucket. Oh, no men and women alike. In the old and I'm not saying it's just in that generation. I'm sure that there are plenty. There are plenty of other people. But there's a large population of people in the older generations that still make the same mistakes. And a lot of people will brush it off and go oh, it's just through age, but it's still inappropriate.

Andrea Herran 45:03

Absolutely, absolutely. And the nice thing is, is, you know, you're talking about how the younger generation is so aware, the younger generation has been exposed, openly exposed to so many different things, whether we're talking male, female, liberal, conservative, gender identity, orientation, things like that. I mean, it's, like I said, I've got teenagers, you know, my boys are in high school, and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, it's we see this, we see that and I'm like, I've never heard that term. What does that mean? And I'm like, okay, you know, right. They see it all the time. And they're like, people are just being themselves. It doesn't affect me. So why should I care? Right? And that's the way they are like, Would you ever do this? And they're like, oh, no, right? No. Why? Why would I be little somebody else? Correct. It's just constantly. Thankfully, they just don't yet. Right? I don't understand why anybody would want to do that. Correct.

Leighann Lovely 46:02

And that's the same. My daughter came home. And we were talking about one of her little friends at school. And I said, Oh, what? You know, what are what about her mommy and daddy, and she's, oh, she doesn't have a mommy. And I said, Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. She goes, No, she has two daddies. Oh, okay. Great. And for her, it's completely normal. There is nothing wrong with it. It's completely normal. For me, I'm going Oh, okay. And I'm thinking, well, maybe I should ask her if she's okay with that. And I'm like, wait, no, I'm not going to say anything else. Because then it's going to seem like there's something wrong with it. And she's going to wonder why I'm asking. So I just went, Oh, okay, that's cool. You know, and we, and we just kept on talking. Because, again, my generation is still, we're still getting used to the processing of processing it. And, and we're still my generation, our generation is still processing the pronouns, and we're still and while I am completely accepting, and I, it doesn't matter to me one way or another, it's still, we're still in a state of processing the information to try to understand it, you know, appropriately. Right. And the younger generation, they're, they're growing up in it, they're in the thick of it the same way that I was, and you, and, you know, the older generation was in the thick of, of, you know, I mean, I saw, I had friends who were experimenting with the same sex at that time, and my parents were like, Oh, my God, no, no, that's not, or my parents actually, were really forward thinking and didn't care, my grandparents would have been, like, you know, oh, my God, that's, that's not appropriate, you know, that's completely, again, each generation shifts to be more accepting of the next. And so at some of these employers who are, you know, are much older, and trying to shift with all of the dynamics of the different younger generation coming in. I would not want to be incorporate HR anymore.

Andrea Herran 48:12

Because it gets confusing, you know, like, one of the things I liken it to is computers. You know, it's, I'm Gen X, a home PC came out in my generation when I was in high school, right? I like to think of myself as computer literate, but I'm sure there's tons of stuff that I don't know, still, you know, where as this current generation doesn't know what it's like not to be without a computer, including the one that's in their hand. I mean, cell phones are just small computers, right? You know, they grew up with all that. So to them, it's absolutely normal. You know, so while the rest of us are still trying to process that, I don't have to remember phone numbers anymore, because now I've gotten in my phone. You know, and we're still processing that. It's the same kind of thing. You know, it's

Leighann Lovely 49:01

right, you know? Yeah. I I asked, we were watching Honey, I Shrunk the Kids with my daughter for the first time. And there's a scene in the beginning where the the girl is on the phone that's hooked to the wall, and it's got a cord on it. And I my husband looks at my daughter and goes Honey, do you know what that is? And she goes, Yeah, daddy, it's a phone. And I was like, Oh, okay. Well, she, you know, she's seen. She's seen them before. And she's got a toy that looks like that. And I was like, well, at least she knows what it is. But who has a phone that's hooked to a wall anymore?

Andrea Herran 49:42

It's very rare. Like I don't know if you've seen those videos of like, they put like teenagers in a room with a rotary phone. And you're saying call somebody and we're all looking at it going? Well, it's like, whatever. But you know, it's funny to watch when you know how it's supposed to work. I can't figure out it out. Like they dial like numbers, they dial some numbers, then they lift up the receiver. done anything.

Leighann Lovely 50:07

Oh, is that funny? Well, we are coming to time. And I want to respect that. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. What do you think will go down in the history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Andrea Herran 50:27

I think history will talk about these last three years with not just events here in the US, but worldwide, about the great divisions, you know, it's your ego, this or your that in the lack of compromise or willing to compromise. You know, being evidence we, the pendulum has really swung towards, Nope, you're either with us or against us kind of thing. I mean, with anything, even on the international stage, you know, we can talk about Russia and all that kind of stuff. It's either you're with us or against us. So I'm looking forward to when the pendulum switches back moves back towards more cooperation.

Leighann Lovely 51:13

That's very interesting.

Andrea Herran 51:17

I have it's funny, because that's, you know, every once in a while my kids be like, it'd be just so much easier for everybody thought the same way. And I said, No, it would be boring. Yes. And I go, because if everybody thought exactly the same way, there would be no innovation, right? There would be no change, we'd still be living the same way. We did, you know, 100 years ago. But also differences are great. It's what makes us thrive. What we've lost sight of is how to actually have conversations around differences. You know, we're not having conversations around differences. We're having arguments. Which arguments nobody wins, right?

Leighann Lovely 51:57

If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about contacting you?

Andrea Herran 52:02

Oh, very easy. I can you can go to my website, there's a Contact Us form on there. You know, focus, HR dot biz bi Z. You can email me at Andrea a nd or EA at Focus HR dot biz, or call me. You know, and my phone number is 773-531-8199. Excellent.

Leighann Lovely 52:23

This has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you joining me today. And yeah, I mean, it's just been it's been amazing.

Andrea Herran 52:32

It's it's been great. I could talk for a few more hours, but we won't do that to your listeners.

Leighann Lovely 52:37

Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, companies, hr, andrea, generation, employees, gen z, conversations, talk, business, work, mental health, hire, started, great, human resources, question, gen x, millennials, paid

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Join Wendy Terwelp and me as we dive into the world of AI and how it can be used as a tool to create resumes, but only a tool. Wendy celebrating her 25th year in business has seen a lot change over the years and continues to help her clients level up and find their personal brand. She also explains some of the challenges that come with using AI but also the great benefits if used as a tool and not the end all. This is a great conversation with a Brilliant Author, Executive Speaker, Speaker and so much more!

Contact Wendy

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/wendyterwelp

Website - https://knocks.com/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Wendy Terwelp founded Opportunity Knocks of Wisconsin LLC, a boutique career development firm, in 1998. She writes, speaks, consults, and coaches on personal branding, networking, social media, career development, and employee attraction and retention.

Winner of the 2022 BBB Torch Award for Ethics, Terwelp’s work was also recognized in Inc.’s “Top 10 Helps for Your Career,” ATD’s “Best on Career Development,” and she was named in the Top 15 Career Masterminds.

Dubbed a “LinkedIn Guru” by The Washington Post, her advice is quoted in The Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, The Philadelphia Inquirer, The Chicago Tribune, The Business Journal, CTDO magazine, ABC, NBC, FOX, and other media. Her books include: “Rock Your Network® for Job Seekers,” “Rock Your Job Search,” and ATD’s award-winning “Jumpstart Your Job Search and Get Hired Faster.”

Terwelp served in community and professional leadership roles including Judging the 2023 BBB Spark Awards; Chairing PD Charitable Fund Board’s Premier Awards Event; Officer on Wisconsin Association of Staffing Services Board; Co-Chairing the Career Development Track for ATD’s International Conference & Expo.

Terwelp holds a Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in the Workplace certification, six career industry certifications, and a degree in Mass Communication / Journalism.

Wendy, I am so excited to have you. This is actually a treat because you and I have spoken on a podcast before actually in a previous podcast life of mine. So welcome.

Wendy Terwelp 03:08

Thank you. I'm glad to be back. It's exciting.

Leighann Lovely 03:12

Yes. So why don't you start out by telling everybody a little bit about yourself? Well, my name

Wendy Terwelp 03:18

Well, my name is Wendy Terwelp, and I founded a company called Opportunity Knocks of Wisconsin LLC. It's a boutique career development firm. And I founded this in 1998. So it's year 25. For me. I'm excited about that I write speak, consult. And coach on personal branding, networking, social media, career development. And lately, employee attraction and retention. Since the pandemic, that's been a key factor of my business talks now is all about how do we attract better fit employees? How do we keep our employees that we have, and so on. So that's really where my emphasis has lied when I when I have been doing my career coaching and talks. When I work with individuals, I typically work on career advancement strategies, personal branding, and also of course, how to find jobs. So even though there's a huge demand for people, they still need to know how to get the right job for them right now. And when I work with companies, it's really all about employee attraction and retention through their employer brand. So,

Leighann Lovely 04:39

yeah, awesome. And congratulations on your 25. That is amazing. That's so much fun. And I'm sure that the last couple of years is definitely throwing you for a loop. But you're absolutely correct. Now is the time to not only work with individuals on finding the right job for them, in hopes that they will stay A, but finding a way to retain the great employees that you have. And that is definitely the burden on employers. You know, today because we all know that employees are on the move, right? They are looking for the balance between work life, the love of their job and their opportunities to be had by all, aren't they're?

Wendy Terwelp 05:29

Absolutely, yeah, I really think that's what you're going to see. But I know that question comes later.

Leighann Lovely 05:37

Yes, so one of one of the things that you and I had kind of, you know, thrown out there as a as an area to talk about, which is, you know, on the rise, it is, you know, being talked about everywhere you go, which is, you know, the AI tools, you know, the GP chats of the world, all of the other tools out there that are specific to that, you know, I've had people approach me and say, Oh, have you use this one? It's specific to podcasting, or have you use this one. But one of those things is, you know, a AI tool for writing or creating resumes. What are your thoughts on that?

Wendy Terwelp 06:16

Yeah, I, I really love this topic, because I actually had one of my clients. She messaged me through LinkedIn. And she's like, I'm really concerned about your business, because I have people that are using AI to create resumes. Well, first of all, that's not the sole part of my business. So, right. But But secondly, I think what people really have to remember is AI can be used as a tool, just like your computer programs can be right. It's a tool. And I think that's the really big thing for people to remember that it's a tool. So what this tool can do for you is, you could use it as a tool to research keywords for the appropriate position that you're targeting, you still have to put the human you into your career documents. So even if AI creates a resume for you, it's not you, right, it's just some something generic, it's not going to have your qualified quantified achievements that focus on bottom line results that are specific to you, because it doesn't know those things, it can't pull those out of the internet ether. Because it doesn't have that information. You have to have that information as a candidate, you need to know these things. You can't say significantly improved sales, you're not going to get hired, you need to say by how much and what percentage, did you improve sales? How did you improve sales? What specific actions did you take to improve those sales? And more importantly, who are some of your key clients? How much revenue did that bring in? And over what timeframe?

Leighann Lovely 08:05

So not only that, but I also you know, you get again, being you know, coming from the recruiting world beat Yeah, you get all of these resumes, and and I like the uniqueness of a resume, somebody who pours their heart and soul and being like, and again, I'm not saying like, Oh, make pretty, you know, put hearts and flowers and rainbows on him. Because that would just irritate me, I don't I don't need that stuff. I want the I want the short and skinny of how you accomplish what you I don't want to book, please don't send me a book. I'm not interested in reading your life story. I want the short and skinny of how you did what you did at that job with the highlights. Because, again, most employers or people who are hiring, they give your resume, a couple of you know, 10 to 15 seconds to grab their attention and decide whether or not they're going to read further. If they read further, you then you know you're in your chances of being called for an interview increase dramatically. Right. But if you're using an AI, I'm gonna guess that this AI is pulling from, you know, historical data data on what is the best format? What is the best verbiage what is the and you're going to end up with what everybody else has?

Wendy Terwelp 09:33

Yes, exactly. It's generic. It's not you and it's doesn't separate you from the crowd. Your resume look like everybody else's. If you're an accountant. That's pretty straightforward job but what's unique to you are the type of you know, what did you save money wise? Did you do a due diligence for an acquisition or merger? What was your impact to the organization if you did that, you know, what level of accounting Are you Are you? Are you a CFO? Or are you a staff, accountant? Those are different responsibilities. Even if you're a newbie, a new college grad, okay, some of those things are going to be general because you're new to the world of your new profession. But maybe you had an internship nobody else had. Maybe that makes you different. Maybe you have some amazing volunteer activity that you participated in that other people didn't. Maybe you did a study abroad program as a new grad that somebody else didn't. These are separators, right. So you can use, you can use AI, maybe as a tool to research keywords, maybe to flesh out a format, but you still have to be take ownership of what you put out. And I feel, you know, you need to know what your achievements are, you need to know what your personal brand is what sets you apart, because not all people are created equal. That's what makes us great and makes us you know, hireable, and it makes us a culture fit for the organizations we target. So we have to get into those differentiators.

Leighann Lovely 11:08

So do you think this is probably a bad question? But I'm gonna ask it anyways. Because your show? I mean, don't you think that that AI is slightly ruining a cup? And again, I know my audience is gonna yell at me like, What? What do you mean ruining us? But I mean, it's great in some aspects, it gives, hey, I use it. Don't get me wrong. I love GP chat. I love to jump on there and be like, I need some ideas. And then from what it kicks out, I'm like, Oh, that's a really great idea. And then I, I go off and I created on my own, you may be using a couple key words that I did not that I didn't even know existed. But for the younger generation, the reason that I have gotten to where I am, is because I've had to swim. I was thrown into the pool and a sink or swim. I swam. Don't you think that that's kind of ruining that learning that necessary learning for some of that younger generation?

Wendy Terwelp 12:19

Well, that's more of a culture shock situation. I mean, when I was growing up, I didn't have a global pandemic. To share. Right, right. When I graduated from college, we had the second we had the second we had a stock market crash. When I graduated from college, there weren't any jobs. Right. So I had to go out there and forge my own way, right. And I was still was able to get employed, primarily through my network, applied everywhere, but still had to do the groundwork of networking, that personal touch, the networking, in fact, I wrote the book called Rock your network for job seekers. So hello. Right. And, and I, the network still has to be there and AI can't replace your network. Right? These are all tools. Social media is a tool, you know, so I think I think we have to look at these as tools. I mean, I had a typewriter, I had a computer, those were tools. You know, when computers were out and everybody had a computer in their home, they said, oh, there's never going to be any paperwork. Hello, here. My notes right? On paper. You know, trees, we are still killing trees, we still get junk mail. Right? So I think, let's reframe that as it's another marker of change. And how can we use this tool to help us because we aren't, you know, we aren't using horses for unless you're in New York, and then you want to go on the horse ride, but I think they're even slowing that down. Right? So evolution is gonna happen regardless. So how can we use these tools to help us not be right, any generation because every generation is different. And we all learn and adapt? And I think right now we really got to focus on who is the candidate who is the most adaptable? Who is the candidate who's the most resilient who's the candidate who has really unique ideas that we want for our company, who is the candidate who has proven results with actual numbers, right. That's how we're going to be a difference, I think.

Leighann Lovely 14:49

Absolutely. And you know, as you're as you're talking, and when you first started that I realized that I have become old because As you know, I'm doing what I'm sure my parents did when they're like, Oh, isn't the computer, you know, going to ruin our kids, they can get all of this in front, they don't have to go to the library and read books, they are able to go on a course, when I first got my, my first computer, the internet didn't exist. It was, I can't remember what program it was. But it was like this amazing program where you could get all of this historical information, it wasn't even online, it was just this different. I don't remember what it was a CD, no, it was probably a floppy, it probably, it probably was a floppy that you put in and it was like this mobile thing. You can do, like historical history research on it. And it was amazing. But I'm sure that my parents, our parents, you know, thought, wow, this is going to ruin you know, our kids aren't going to be looking or reading books anymore, which is 100% not true, I still love to sit down with an actual paper book, which is horrible, because I'm killing trees, when I can just, you know, pick up my Kindle, which I do have one of those as well and read it and save the paper. But I like to make notes in the margin, especially when I'm reading a, you know, like a actual book. The point being is that you're right, every step we make all of the progressive things that happen. They are tools, they are not to replace the human brain. And in order to continue to advance, we have to remember that these are our tools, but the human touch cannot be completely removed.

Wendy Terwelp 16:38

That's what I've, I feel, you know, there's there's a huge strike right now in Hollywood, from both actors and writers. And I do feel their pain, because what they're talking about is not being replaced. But what they're really talking about is, hey, we put all this intellectual property out there. I don't want my image selling a product, I don't believe it. If you really think about it, or I don't want my words, now being used as a chat GPT training tool. Right, which is what what one comedian had happened. You know, so these are some things that that's where the fight is coming in is, hey, we don't want our intellectual property taken and that to be compensated for that material. Right. That's what's happening to so I understand that. And that's wildly interesting, because

Leighann Lovely 17:41

how do you regulate, that? How do you regulate an AI? And how do you the other thing, too, is? You know, I, somebody had said that, you know, chat GPT and some of the other AI tools are confidently in accurate?

Wendy Terwelp 18:03

Yes. I love that phrasing of confidently inaccurate. That's sweet.

Leighann Lovely 18:11

And it's not my phrase, I heard it from somebody else I, you know, from somebody else, but

Wendy Terwelp 18:15

it's good, because here's the scoop. So they're they're producing content. And you think, well, this is this has got to be true, there was a great case about a lawyer who had jet GPT. Write their brief for them and cite cases, those cases did not exist. That was the whole problem corral that, you know that that's a whole big, ongoing thing. But here's the scoop. So that's where you're coming in with the confidential, confidently inaccurate phrasing, because it seems normal. And that's why you really have to be, do your due diligence and do your investigative work? Are these real cases? Are these real? Resources? Where are they getting that from? And that's going to come down to a few things. One, what prompt are you using to create the content that you're receiving? Or create the information you're receiving? You have to have strong, accurate prompts to do it, too. You have to edit no matter what comes back at you, you have to do your own due diligence on that material. Use it as a framework don't use it as gospel.

Leighann Lovely 19:29

Right. And that's, you know, I've heard other people reference the the lawyer situation, because if you think about, you know, an AI, it doesn't know where exactly it's pulling it from, it knows that it's pulling it from the web. But what people put out on the web is not always correct. We refer back to for instance, Wikipedia. So Wikipedia is, you know, an open source or a have a place where you can, you know, put out information that what I believe it has to be approved, but it's approved by the masses that believe that yes, what information you are putting out is, is indeed, accurate, but not 100% accurate. So if we're pulling from a source that is inaccurate, say a definition that may have one word that is incorrect, all of the sudden, instead of saying, you know, the don't or the do, all of the sudden things become completely wrong. And so if, if you're Yeah, if you're not double checking those sources, you then are going to look like a complete ass?

Wendy Terwelp 20:50

Well, that's a pretty accurate way of putting it, I think, well, in the Yeah, and the other thing is, is you have to watch out for bias in the material that comes back to you as well. So that's another thing now that they're really finding, in now that it's become really, you know, there's chat GPT for now, which is even more amazing, then three, and so on. So what comes back, though, you got to watch out for bias, who is it hurting? Who is it harming where the source is coming from, and I think that's where the human factor comes in, you've got to really do your research on what comes back, it might save you a lot of time. You know, if you're an employer and looking to write a job description for a potential opening, you have, it could give you a nice framework, but you still own your company, you still work for your employer, you know, the corporate culture that's there, you know, the specific requirements that might be different for that role in your company than it might be for the general masses. And so you need to adapt what comes back. And you also need to watch those biases too. Right? Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 22:06

I completely agree with that with the the political unrest. And if you accidentally put in something there in there that has anything related to something that's going on in the political world, you could potentially be in a world, a world of hurt that that is definitely something that I didn't even consider. You know, same thing with, you know, other hot top, you know, hot topics right now, in the mental health world, in in the neurodiverse. world in so many other things. There are so many splits, it will, even in, you know, all of the isms, racism, and ageism, and all of those, there's so many split things out there, or misinformation, that it would be so easy to get information that is, again, confidently inaccurate. It's, yeah, that it would be easy for Yeah. So what, you know, what are and again, you kind of addressed this, as far as you know, what candidates and employers need to be careful of, you know, using AI tools for those things. What are other things, you know, Have you have you seen? Have you had firsthand experience working with any employers or employees writing resumes or job descriptions?

Wendy Terwelp 23:28

Well, outside of somebody's concerned for my business, which was so nice. I really emphasize that personal and personality and achievement emphasis, because that is unique to you, that can't be copied. That's you, right. And so, you know, for candidates, candidates still have to provide specific quantified achievements with a focus on results. Ai can't do that, because they don't know you personally, they don't know your history. They just pull it from the Ethernet, essentially, you know, they just pull it out and create something. And you can get some great keywords from them. You can get a framework, but you still have to contribute who you are. An AI can't do it for employers. Maybe they can shorten the time for writing job descriptions, but you're unique to your company, your company has its own culture, some things aren't replicable, and you have to again, review what you get. Make sure there isn't the bias in there that could happen. And so use it to flesh out an outline just don't use it. Adds is I think, right? And some companies now are doing some I thought it was ridiculous, but now I see why they're doing it. They're kind of doing it like whatever band that was that then had people search for the green m&ms and remove green m&ms from the m&m bowl. Well, they did that because they had pyrotechnics in their show. And if somebody didn't pay attention to their full Ryder, say, could tell if there was a green m&m in their bowl that they didn't read the full rider, and there could be some dangerous happenings with the pyrotechnic setup. Wait, wait, wait, we will back up. I'm

Leighann Lovely 25:29

interested in this one. Explain this. So

Wendy Terwelp 25:33

there's a rock band that actually a few of different ones, but there's one in particular that specifically said they asked for m&ms, you know, in the green room for them when they're setting up. And they said, but no green m&ms. And if there was a green m&m in there, they knew that whoever read their contract and read the writers did not read the green m&m writer, and there could be a technical issue with their setup and their pyrotechnics that could cause harm to them and the audience. They knew it wasn't read properly. So then that meant that they had to go in there with their own people and make sure everything was okay. So that was a signal. And I've now seeing it in certain job descriptions. I read one, and I thought it was ridiculous. I'm like, why is this guy talking about turtles? What is the deal with the turtle? And he went on and on about if you don't have turtle, when you reply to me in some way, either in your cover letter or your resume? I know you didn't read my job description. And it was way down on the bottom of the job description. And I thought it was ridiculous. But he was using it as an AI wieder.

Leighann Lovely 26:50

That is brilliant. Yeah. Right. I, I've never thought about that. Because how many people just scan it and go, yep.

Wendy Terwelp 27:00

I meet these qualifications. And it how many times you know, I was a recruiter, you our recruiter? How many times have we gotten hundreds of applicants who we know did not read the job description and were not qualified. Right? So this was like, one extra step. And he used it as a tool to weed out AI resumes, as well as unqualified applicants because they didn't read the full job description. Right?

Leighann Lovely 27:29

That is one way at the end, right way at the end. So you've you've got to wow. Yeah, interesting. I like it. I like it. I completely like it.

Wendy Terwelp 27:42

I know. First I thought, Man, that's ridiculous. Why are they doing that? And then I was like, oh, that's why they're doing it. I did a more research on it. And, and they had done it just like the rockstars that put in those riders, right. They wanted to make sure the person was paying attention that they actually did meet all of the qualifications, and that they could follow directions. And they weren't AI.

Leighann Lovely 28:04

Correct? Well, and especially I mean, it makes sense for obviously, these the rocks, if they've got, if they've got dangerous equipment in which they're they just telling somebody, we have dangerous equipment, you need to read all of the rules. It's unfortunate that some people won't do it. Right, they still will not do it. Yes.

Wendy Terwelp 28:29

And we know that just from having, you know, recruiter experience, right. So you know,

Leighann Lovely 28:36

you know how many times I've signed up for a credit card, and then they send me the stuff in the mail. And I'm like, what this is, how, what is the percentage of this? Or what is the n or I get dinged with a fee? And I'm like, wait a second, why am I getting a fee? And then it's right, right there in the contract? And you're like,

Wendy Terwelp 28:52

Oh, I wish I would read that closer.

Leighann Lovely 28:56

I guess I didn't read that. Yeah, it. I've learned my lesson now. But you know, you live and learn. You need to read everything with a fine tooth comb. And as somebody who's written and, you know, signed hundreds of contracts throughout my career, I don't sign anything I don't read now. You know, thoroughly. I'm not putting my name on anything. And that has saved me multiple times. But that is that is a really, that is a really, I feel like it maybe somebody had said something about the green m&ms, but I don't know that I'd actually truly understood what that was all about.

Wendy Terwelp 29:40

It was like a big one of those urban myths, but it's actual, it's an actual fact and just do a Google search on it. Yeah. Right. Your listeners can find it and find the band that does it. That's the reason they do it. Right.

Leighann Lovely 29:55

Put in something you know, that seems wildly strange and Um, but there's a reason behind, you know, and most things are driven by a reason. You know, I have a five year old that constantly questions me, and why do I have to do this? And then I'm like, Okay, well, here's the reason behind says, Oh, I'm just kidding. I wish I wish that would work these days. I have a wildly, inquisitive, inquisitive five year old where she'll go, Well, I don't understand why I have to do this. I'm not doing it. And I'll go. Alright, fine. Let me explain. The reason that you're not allowed to jump on and off the cart while Mom is pushing the cart is the exact reason that mommy just ran over your foot, and now you're crying? Oops. Yeah, that's true story. Actually, that happened yesterday. Oh, no. Right. Right. She's crying, you ran over my foot. And I'm like, Well, I told you to stop playing in front of the cart and jumping on and off the cart. And so yeah, I just ran over your foot. Children. So you, you help you help individuals, you know, get ready for a well and not just get ready, you coach individuals on finding their next career path. And that includes helping review resumes and, you know, find what their passion is. Tell me a little bit more about that. Sure. When I work with an individual, it's it's

Wendy Terwelp 31:25

it's either a career move internally, so we're working on how we can communicate their value more effectively, uncovering and discovering their achievements, elevating their personal brand, because they have one, everyone has one. Herman's always late. Oh, you've, you've got a label right there. You want to change that? Herman? Right. So really harnessing the power of your differentiators, which again, is going to elevate you, not only internally, but if you want to apply anywhere else, it's going to help you. And when I work with job seekers, I work on several things, like you said, one is really uncovering your value, vision, passion and purpose. What is that? You know, how do you stand out from the crowd? What makes you unique? What do you really want to do? Not what you can do, because you can do a lot of different things. But what do you really want for that next booth? Most of the people that I work with are mid career and up. So they're in that what do I want for my next move, and a better be really good, a better be a good culture fit? Pay better be decent? You know, and should be something I want? We can do a lot of things, but what is it that you really want? And why? Why should I hire you? So we work on things like, you know, I do write people's resumes, but it's done with them, highly collaboratively, I ask them questions, I get to the heart of those achievements. I have them do their due diligence and really find me results. What are the results, because you can't, you know, especially now when you are competing with people writing their resumes, with AI, you have to be different and specifics are going to do that for you. And so that's where I come in, I'll help people, right. They're linked in profiles, I actually write them based on an in depth interview I I have experienced as a news reporter. And so that comes in really handy in my recruiting experience. And having served on the board of directors for Wisconsin Association of staffing services, and big at a high level in some other different professional associations and organizations that helps me have a really wide network of decision makers, and I know what they want to see. And I know what's going to track them. But I still want to capture that person's personality, too. Because personality is going to pop and it's going to help attract. So AI is a tool, and you can use that. But then you'll want to work with somebody like me, who can really help you pull out those differentiators and in develop your story.

Leighann Lovely 34:11

That's awesome. That's amazing. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Wendy Terwelp 34:19

Well, super easy. My website is knocks.com, I've been around a long time. So I was able to get it. And then you could just you could email me you can easily follow me on LinkedIn at Wendy Terwelp WENDY and then Terwelp to TERWELP. And you can also Google that and you're gonna see me everywhere. So that'll help you but knocks.com is the website.

Leighann Lovely 34:48

Awesome. Now we do have a question of the season. This is kind of a while it's a new question this season as this is the first episode of season four but what what What do you think will go down in the history history books from what the world has experienced over the last three years?

Wendy Terwelp 35:09

Wow, I think there's been a huge culture shift. Huge, you know, I'm going to focus on the work side of that shift. And, and the work side is very interesting. You're seeing, because the pandemic, so many people, first of all, there was like a 20 time evolution in tech, right, that, that those of us who could could work from home, here, you and I are working from home with our cool paintings and stuff behind us, right? So we, we get to do that not everyone gets to do that. But we, we are able to do that. So that was a huge major shift that will go down in history, you're hearing about the great reshuffle the great resignation, and all of that. That's because people are like, wow, I, there isn't a loyalty anymore. First of all, there never was. But now you as it's back to the employee II market, some of that has slowed a little bit. And you're seeing some massive shifts in the tech industry. But it's still there. And so people are really reevaluating their work. What do I want? What do I value, I want to make an impact. That's probably the number one thing that I keep hearing from my clients is I want to contribute, I want to make an impact. And I want to have, I want to work for a company whose ethics I believe in. That's really big. And there's an Edelman trust survey that came out just last year. And the number one thing that people are looking for, they want CEOs of companies to take a stand. Societal leadership is critical now. And it's critical to your company to attract talent and also retain talent. So where do you stand? Right, that's a shift. Another shift that I'm seeing is with, with those who can work from home, people don't want to go back. They want to stay remote, because they can. And companies, are there still some tug of war from that? And people are saying, well, that's disintegrating the culture? Well, what can you do in your office culture to include remote workers more? We have tools like this here, you and I last time we we got together was pre pandemic, and we got to meet in person. How cool right, you know, although we did to a post pandemic meet up too, but you know, here we are both able to do this on Zoom. How cool is that? Right? You can't?

Leighann Lovely 38:09

Well, anything you both had to drive? Wasn't it like a 40 minute drive for both of us to meet? Yes, right. Yeah, because we're not we were a distance away from each other. So we save

Wendy Terwelp 38:23

time there. The other thing that remote is allowing is your global workforce, you can hire people, it's so exciting because you can have a global workforce. Now. You can also hire people that may be because of your building constraints, however your building was designed, you might not have been able to open some things up to folks, you know, I think you can have more neurodiverse people working for you than perhaps you had in the past. I mean, I think having these capabilities is really going to expand the opportunities for people of all kinds to work for you. So really think about it as a tool to expand your workforce. I think it will. The other shift too, is I would hope in the throes of the pandemic, people have a little more respect for essential workers. I mean, some of the things that I was seeing, come on, these folks are there showing up for you restack in the groceries, these poor people are showing up for you and in some cases also getting severely ill in the hospitals caring for you. You know, people were not able to see elderly people. I hope that that changes to and people have a little more empathy and compassion for others. I hope that that's it shift that we see more of.

Leighann Lovely 40:02

Absolutely not only essential workers but you know, for. And again, I'm not saying not only, that was a huge stress on hospital workers on emergency care workers on our military, you know, the people who stepped up, stepped up and you know, had to come in and do you know, the mass testings, the mass vaccines, right. And then once we went back to being able to open up restaurants to have people in person, the individuals who have been busting their butts to be able to serve the people who want to go out to dinner, right? Go and make sure you tip them, if you can afford to go out to dinner, then you can afford to tip your server Yes, I understand that things have prices have gone up. But they are out there busting their butts, and they were busting their butts, you know, right after the pandemic and things started to they're out there trying to make a living to tip and stop complaining that Oh, my God, it's taking so long to get our food. Everybody is stressed still, we're all trying to get the world back to where it was. And it's just not going to be back to where it was, this is the way it's going to be for a long time coming. And I totally agree. When I think about that question, what is going to go down in the history books, obviously, it's going to be you know, that we had a global pandemic. But I think that's almost going to be the footnote in what happened after. Because there are so many things that would have eventually happened. But I think that it would have taken 510 15 years, for all of the other things that came after to eventually happen. The remote workforce, the all of these different things, we just saw, all of this stuff happens so quickly. And it shocked our economy, it shocked our system. And some of these things are beautiful, and others not quite as beautiful. You know, I don't like going into the grocery store and seeing that my carton of eggs has gone up to 12 bucks and you know, a carton

Wendy Terwelp 42:22

is coming back down again. But that was an avian flu thing,

Leighann Lovely 42:26

right? You know, I hate to see the you know, things skyrocketing in price and all of this other stuff because of, you know, all these things that are off balance right now. But yes, the pandemic was horrific. And I think that it will put a light it'll shine a light on a lot of the people who's who stepped up and helped the world continue to move. But I think that also it is the history books are going to talk about everything that you just mentioned. So awesome. That was great answer. Well, Wendy, this has been such an amazing conversation. It is it's always great to catch up and talk with you. I look forward I would love to have you come on, you have such a wealth of knowledge and love to have you. You know, come on again, to you know, tackle another topic and another time. Sure. So I would welcome that. But thank you so much for joining me today.

Wendy Terwelp 43:25

Thank you for having me and I'd love to be back. Thanks again the end.

Leighann Lovely 43:30

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

ai, work, pandemic, put, tool, resumes, job description, write, read, gpt, employers, achievements, career, ruining, happen, employees, differentiators, wendy, question, career development

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Trauma comes in many forms and affects everyone differently. This guest knows all too well what trauma can do. Michelle Vande Hey now a coach and educator, helping others be trauma-informed and making sure to take care of themselves before burning out from over giving. Michelle is a strong and brilliant woman, join the conversation!

Contact Michelle

LinkedIn - lightoflovecoaching.com

E-mail – michelle@lightoflovecoaching.com

Website - lightoflovecoaching.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started. Today I have a very authentic and amazing guest joining me. Michelle Vande Hey. After the death of her son James, Michelle battled depression, anxiety and PTSD. Her relationship with her loving daughter was torn apart. She was binge eating to numb the pain and felt completely lost with where she was and where she was going. Michelle found herself again, with a holistic approach to healing alongside professional help and a meaningful connection built in a community with folks that were able to help her know her worth. This led her on an unexpected path where she now helps founders and nonprofits to recover from or prevent burnout from over giving and compassion fatigue, so they can create long lasting sustainable impact with their organization without losing themselves. Michelle founded light of love coaching in February of 2020, and is a trauma informed certified holistic life coach. Her mission is to create a welcoming community of folks that rediscover who they are by knowing their self worth and embracing their spiritual gifts so they can be empowered to influence change for themselves and others around the world. Together, they are co creating a more inclusive, peaceful and, and prosperous world. Michelle has been featured in brava magazine and is regularly a guest on podcast. When she is not coaching, speaking or facilitating. You can find Michelle making dance videos in her kitchen biking to Pilates getting lost in the world or running with the sunrise. welcome Michelle, I am so excited to have you join me today.

Michelle Vande Hey 03:03

Well, thank you. Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 03:05

Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself and about your business?

Michelle Vande Hey 03:10

Sure. So I live in the sock city Wisconsin area with my husband and daughter. And we've lived here for eight years now we live, lived in Madison for a while and then moved here for my husband's work. And I've worked from home most of my life. So I'm just mobile. And yeah, I'm a certified holistic life coach. And I do trauma informed work, and really passionate about helping leaders and founders of nonprofits and mission driven organizations to create sustainable impact and sustainable success without burning out a lot with focus on like over giving compassion, fatigue and vicarious trauma. And I utilize trauma sensitive yoga as well. To help with those things.

Leighann Lovely 04:05

That's That's amazing. And I think that a lot of people nowadays suffer from over giving. I think that's especially in the nonprofit, I mean space. And that's, that's, that's absolutely amazing. And your your business, when you and I talked really came out of, you know, trauma in your life that led you down the path to coaching. Are you open to telling us a little bit about your story?

Michelle Vande Hey 04:39

Yeah, sure. Yeah. So coaching was something I had never thought I would do. Even though I would always have people kind of tell me like, oh, you should be a coach or you should be a speaker and that kind of stuff. And I just kind of, you know, was like okay, yeah, you probably said that to everyone sort of thing. And then in unfortunately in October Were of 2018, we had a son that died when he was about 12 weeks old in his sleep. And after that happened, obviously, like just all sorts of stuff. And by October of 2019, so about a year later, I had, I was already doing like daycare part time, and then working another business as well. And my living daughter, and then my daycare kids were all getting to the age of being in school. And I knew I didn't want to do daycare for the rest of my life. And so I was talking to a friend of mine. And I was just like, I don't know what to do. Because I have time. I don't want to just like, sit at home and be sad all the time. And, but I don't know what to do. And she's like, well, you should be a health coach, because you're already doing it. You're just not charging people for it. And I kind of thought around that. I was like, you know, I don't want to be a coach. I feel like this world has too many coaches already. Why? Like, why do we need another coach? And she's like, Yeah, but people really need coaches, and you're really good at it. So you should like what else are you going to do? And so because I trusted her judgment, everything I was like, alright, that's what I'm going to do. So I started health coaching. And basically, it was like, a couple of weeks later, because I've always been an entrepreneur, an entrepreneur. So for me, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna do it, let's get it going. So within a couple of weeks, I started, you know, I had all my promotional material. And then I like reached out to people that I thought would want to have a coach. And I started coaching, right after that. And then in that time, too, I really realized how my clients needed more work with their mindset, as opposed to what to eat and what not to eat. And so I wasn't actively looking, but I came across this holistic life coaching certification. And then I was like, This is what I think I need to do. And so when I decided to do that, it was during that time, when we were doing some of the coaching stuff that I do now, that it really kind of came over me that I shouldn't really be helping grieving moms. And so I quickly shifted from helping everyone to help Ingredion moms. And that was really, you know, it was also helped my healing journey, like I was doing therapy and all that kind of stuff. And for me to health and nutrition, and fitness was a big part of my healing journey, too. And then, last year, and 2021, I started doing more in person speaking and like facilitating things for organizations like meditations, group discussions, and things like that. And I started working more with these founders and leaders of these nonprofit organizations mostly. And I realized, like, that's who I really want to help, because a lot of them have been through something similar to me, or they've been through something in their life. And they started this organization, because of what they had been through. Sort of like me, even though my initially what I was doing wasn't about, like about the pain that I went through, or the trauma that I went through. But a lot of them, it was. And so and then also last year, during that, about that same time, I did this, like 20 hour trauma sensitive yoga training, and that really opened my eyes up to just more of like trauma work, and how so many people are affected by trauma, and really honoring that trauma isn't just isn't only PTSD, it isn't only people who served in the armed forces, it's, there's, you can have trauma from so many different things. And that it can affect your daily life without you even realizing it. Right. And so that's when I started kind of getting a little bit more into focusing on being more trauma informed, and using utilizing that kind of stuff with my clients.

Leighann Lovely 09:17

Right. And I love what you just said because people assume or associate trauma with one major event. But there are little traumas throughout our lives that often get on noticed and on treated. Yes or not even I don't know that treated is the right word. They get just brushed away as if it's it's nothing and we never address it talks about it or even acknowledge that something as small as and you and I think talked about this. You don't realize that changing jobs is considered one of the major traumas in an adult, individuals life changing jobs. And if we, if that is one of the major traumas, that means that every single adult is experiencing traumas on a regular basis, because I think that if we reframe what trauma means, we would start to realize how often we are experiencing trauma. And I guess, you know, when I look at what is actual trauma, it's, you know, having an event in our life, that sort of significantly impacts the way that we're either doing things the way that we're in taking information. So those small little traumas, you know, you go from having, let's say, you're at a job for seven years, all of a sudden, everything in your life is tipped upside down, and you have to find a new routine. Yeah. And that that is traumatic, that's a traumatic event. Now, I'm talking about a trauma that is not excuse me, life altering in the sense of, you know, so I'm not I'm not trying to be insensitive, obviously, your your trauma is completely and totally different. That is much more of an emotional, much more of a, you know, it stimulates different portions of, you know, I'm assuming of the brain than a trauma of changing a job. That's, you know, it's a wheeling trauma that you enter into. But there are on a regular basis, I mean, driving down the street, you driving down the road, and somebody almost runs you off the road, I will tell you that I'm I'm shaking, I'll shake for the next, you know, five minutes of going Oh, my God, oh, my God, that almost happened. I mean, you could have traumas of things that almost happened to you.

Michelle Vande Hey 11:55

That's definitely and, and talking about different types of trauma, too. I think that's a great thing to bring up. Because it doesn't mean that we're like, watering down or making it seem like Oh, trauma isn't a big deal. Because everyone experiences trauma, it's actually the exact opposite. Is that like, there are there it's like different different types of traumas, have you experienced things in a different way and need different types of healing or different ways, but like making sure that we're not just pushing them to the side or suppressing them to, and sometimes to some of those, like, quote, unquote, smaller traumas can be things, especially from like childhood, like things that happen over and over again, that are like small little things, that that affects, like what you are telling yourself and how you feel about yourself about your self worth, and all of those types of things as well.

Leighann Lovely 12:54

Yeah, oh, yeah, I completely understand that if somebody is, grows up, repeatedly being told, or repeatedly being hit for not getting an A, or not even something as simple as that they're going to grow up thinking that if they're not perfect, all of the time, that they're not worth anything. Yeah, I mean, I and that's just an example, I'm assuming off, you know, off the top of my head, but that all of you know, all of the good that happens to us. And all of the bad that happens to us is going to make up how we process information as adults, and how we see ourselves when we look in the mirror, and how we I'm assuming are able to self soothe ourselves. Mm hmm. So this is amazing work. And I'm going to guess that the majority of the people that you start working with, don't realize some of the, I guess self sabotaging habits are as bad as they actually are, because of things that they have grown up, or things that they have learned through those traumas.

Michelle Vande Hey 14:19

Yeah, definitely. And to talking about traumas is just like collective traumas, too. So the most obvious one that happened recently was COVID. And the pandemic is like, that's like a collective trauma. So even like, mass shootings and things like that are like natural disasters. Those are traumas that people experience on a collective level too. And those are things that oftentimes again, we get so used to just being like, oh, you know, we just kind of shove it to the side and don't realize that it can really affect you on your in your daily life and your decision making. You're even Like your confidence about the decisions that you're making, it can really affect all aspects of your life.

Leighann Lovely 15:07

And so do you think that when when a large group of people experience a trauma, for instance, you know, COVID, we just saw went through this right. And there were some people who took it extremely, extremely difficulty. And, you know, again, I had, I have a very strong support system, my family, we all managed to, you know, find a way to continue to connect and talk. But there are many individuals out there that that are lacking in that, that that don't necessarily. So do you think that because there are some people who have that strong community that they will sometimes push aside and make light of some of those, you know, traumas that make it even more difficult? For others?

Michelle Vande Hey 16:02

I think it can be twofold. I mean, the community aspect can be something that can be really beneficial, because like the, the not feeling so alone, and something can really be helpful. But if but if it's affecting you, differently than maybe the people that you're around most often, that can be really challenging, because you could start thinking like, well, what's wrong with me for feeling this way about this, when my closest friends and family don't feel the same way. And oftentimes, you might have friends or family that are feeling the same way. But it's like, we don't communicate those things often, either. So how do we can be helpful, but it can also in the aspect that you're talking about? It can be challenging, too.

Leighann Lovely 16:49

So how do we overcome that? I mean, I know that you, you, you talked about, you know, kind of teaching or educating and helping people and you know, more to the HR? How do you make people more trauma informed to, you know, try not to isolate others, and make sure that just because you may not be having an extremely hard time with it, that you're not making somebody else feel even worse by saying, well, it's not a big deal.

Michelle Vande Hey 17:25

Yeah, I mean, I think compassion is a big part of it. And it starts with self compassion first and having compassion for yourself. And that's a big part of trauma sensitive yoga, I feel like to is, when, especially when you're doing it in a group, it's something that can be done one on one, or in a group, when you're doing it in a group, you're learning how to have yourself and your body feel safe. And, and only you can decide if the space is safe. So like, I can say, like, Oh, this is a safe space, but like, I don't really get to decide if it's a safe space for anyone else, they get to decide that. But then being able to manage their own feeling of that sense of safety in themselves, while also being a part of a group as well. And honoring the people in the group that maybe they don't really feel safe, and honoring what they're feeling and what they're going through while also taking care of themselves. And I think if we can do that collectively, just as people, it just creates more space for for openness and for understanding. And knowing that, like, everyone's needs are a little bit different. And just because someone needs something a little bit more of something, doesn't mean that, that it's not fair that maybe you don't get it. And I know HR is probably challenging with that, where it's like, oh, you have like, this is what everybody gets, so to speak, you know, like with paid time off or like, even I know, like, mental health days have become a little bit more of a common thing. But it's like, some people are going to need more mental health days than others. And how can we how can we figure that out in a way that people understand that it's like, it's not like, being fair doesn't mean like, everyone gets the same thing. It's actually about like, honoring what each person needs. And, and knowing that everyone needs something a little bit different. Is can be really valuable. And that can be challenging in HR or organizations where you're trying to be quote unquote fair. And giving everyone the same things but not everyone needs the same things

Leighann Lovely 19:57

right. So and then we get into of Where's the how? How do we? How do we make sure that nobody feels like they're not getting all of the benefits, but also staying confidential, if somebody is taking a mental health day, but at the same time, we've started to realize, and we've started to learn that there is no cookie cutter solution to working with everybody, right? If I come in and disclose that I have PTSD. And trust me, I've I have experienced, being a recruiter I have experienced where there are individuals who, you know, have different disorders of some kind, whether that be PTSD, whether that be anxiety disorder, whether that be and they'll, you know, they've walked into facilities, and they've gone, I can't work here and you're like, Okay, well, why what's going on? They really like you. And it's either an environment issue, or it's a noise issue, or it's a and so, you know, we can't treat everybody, you know, like the cookie cutter, but how do we make how do we make HR how do we make the ER leaders more informed about how to address and how to handle that in a way that's not going to make that employee feel embarrassed or feel dissed, even discriminated against if they go up and say I can't, I can't do. Here's an example. This is a bad example. But um, I have two phobias. One, I can't touch chalk, which drives my daughter crazy, because she's always like, come and draw chalk with me, I have to put on gloves. I just can't touch it. My other is, I have a hard time with hair. So I, I remember, I was working with a long time ago. And they're like, everybody participates in vacuuming in our office. And I was like, Okay, I don't I don't mind me vacuuming. That's not a big deal. I can vacuum I vacuum my house. But this vacuum cleaner, this vacuum cleaner needed to be emptied. And what happens when you empty a vacuum cleaner is that there's hair everywhere. And like, in trying to unclog it, I like I like freaked out. I'm like, I can't I can't touch this. Like I can't, I'm gonna have like a panic attack. I can't touch this. And they're like, Okay, it's your turn to vacuum like you. Why can't you talk? I'm like, I can't do it. Like, I mean, they're just like, well, you're you got and what do you say like, oh, I have a phobia with touching, especially other people's here that I don't know, that's all wrapped up. And now that one, I mean, people kind of laughed off and funny. And I was kind of laughing but like, there are situations where people are like, like, I can't, I can't do that. Like, like, you can't, I can't just you just can't like, people there people are people and yes, was that one kind of funny? Yes. And I make fun of myself for it. I make fun of myself, because I can't touch chalk. Those are my two weird phobias. But there are real ones out there that exist. How do we as leaders, as professionals address that without embarrassing or? Yeah,

Michelle Vande Hey 23:33

yeah. And so, I mean, yes, your examples may be deemed funnier, but I mean, there's still real like, to you. It's real. Right. And, and, and especially with, like, phobias and things like that, a lot of them kind of feel like people who don't have that. It's like, really, are you serious, you know, but it's like, it's real to you. And that, I mean, that's exactly what trauma is, right? It's like, I don't have to know or understand what your trauma is, to be able to help you through that. And so obviously, like education is super important, but creating a culture in your organization, that people are able to come to you to, and be able to talk through like, Okay, this is a challenge for me. And I want to make sure I'm doing my part or whatever, but this I just can't do for whatever reason, and and having it be part of, of the culture, so I don't you know, I don't know if it's like having meetings and, and really talking about that kind of stuff, but something I use, because I do a lot of group coaching. Because I think being in a group, it really helps us in the real world, right? Because you're managing yourself while being in a group with other people that have their own needs. And so something I do is I have an anonymous feedback form that people Will can fill out anytime throughout their time coaching with me if they don't feel comfortable coming into me. So it's like something like that I have I ever had anyone use it not yet. Well, I maybe not. But it's, it's things like that, that you're telling people, it's okay for whatever you need. And, and so like it, it's letting people know that I'm creating, I'm creating a space where hopefully, if you don't feel safe coming into me that you still have a way to communicate what your needs are to us. And I don't know if that's necessarily an anonymous feedback form might not be possible in HR. But it could be, especially if it's not something where the person needs direct help with it. But if it's something where it's like, oh, these things have been coming up, I don't feel comfortable going to HR, is there a way to have an anonymous feedback form so I can share these things. So then they can get brought up and talked about in a group or things like that, I think is really important. And just like, Yeah, I mean, the self compassion and creating spaces for people to voice what they want to say, without having people say like, Well, no, we can't do that, or you're being too sensitive, or you're being ridiculous, that you can't clean out a vacuum cleaner or whatever, you know, like, like having spaces where people are just saying, okay, and listening, and not having to come back with something.

Leighann Lovely 26:38

Right. And I think, you know, it's interesting, because, you know, a lot of people and a lot of people thought, well, this world has become too sensitive, but the reality of it is that we're finally, we're finally creating, or attempting to create the space for people to talk about the things that for years and years forever, have been told, don't talk about that. Don't talk about that in public. You know, I finally, instead of telling my daughter, it's, it's not okay to cry or stop crying about that you don't need to, it's okay to cry, it's okay to be angry, it's okay to be mad at Mommy. But it's not okay to hit, it's not okay to do this. It's, so it's the direct result of, you know, the emotion, if you're acting out from it, it's okay to have experienced a trauma. But in order to get past it in order to, to, you know, get healthy and BB, we have to work through it. And I'm probably not saying the right words, on how you work with people. But we're finally creating space for these individuals and not saying suppress these emotions, because I think that it's been known for a very long time that suppressing emotion, the way that our grandparents and their parents have done that is not healthy. We have a rise of alcoholics, and drug addicts, and people with major mental health issues and people with all, you know, just a slew of major PTSD. I mean, and I could go on forever, a slew of all of these underlined issues. And the majority of them relate back to some form of trauma, that that happened in there, obviously, PTSD, but some form of trauma that happened along their life that they never dealt with that they just shoved out, because I'm quite certain that almost every therapy session starts with, let's talk about your childhood. I mean, it will not every, but every time you go and see a new therapist, and trust me I know because right now I'm looking for a new psychiatrist for my bipolar mine retired, and then my insurance anyways. And every time I see when they're like, let's talk about your child. And I'm like, I don't want to go through this 3 billion times. But it always starts there. Yeah, always because they're like, Well, is there some underlying cause of something that you're still struggling with from somewhere in there? And then it's your teen years? And then it's your, you know, when everybody's like, do you think that there's something you know, that you're still haven't dealt with? And it's like, maybe there is maybe there and again, let's stop talking about me. But the point being is that whenever you see a professional, they're always wondering, is there some traumatic event that you still haven't dealt with? Because we finally figured out that, for the most part, it usually comes from some type of traumatic event.

Michelle Vande Hey 30:01

Yeah. And oftentimes to what what my, I guess personal opinion, I guess it would be is that like, there's like layers of healing. And I talked about forgiveness a lot too. And so I feel like there's layers of forgiveness too. And so, sometimes there are things that you've healed, or you've worked through. And then, because I mean, I truly believe to like you and I like, it's like, we're always trying to continue to be better or grow. And not saying that we're not good enough now, but we're just trying to grow and as you're growing, you're going to come up against things that you've never come up against before. And those new things can bring up old, old stuff that maybe you did some healing around, but maybe it just requires a little bit more healing around that. And there's nothing wrong with needing a little bit more healing around that. I feel like there's always layers of things that can be healed. And it doesn't mean that we're all like, these broken people, it's just that there are wounds that can be healed, that are that may need to be healed. And like your, when you were talking to you about like, you know, this idea that we're becoming too sensitive. And it's because you know, our grandparents and parents, and it's like they were told not to share emotion and all that kind of stuff is like, we're also healing generational trauma as well, right. And there's a lot of science that backs that up of that, like we take on what our parents have gone through and our grandparents have gone through if they haven't done any healing themselves. And so I think that's talking about the rise of mental health issues, and alcoholism and all those types of things is we we are this like generation of starting to actually heal some of this generational trauma that we don't even realize that is there. But it's, it's in our DNA, so to speak, and it's in our bodies, and we have the ability to start some doing some of that healing. And it's really important. And so just, that's where like that self compassion comes in as knowing that it's okay for me to have to maybe heal part of this part that I thought I healed already. And, and that's again, where a lot of times with my clients, it's like, a lot of times they have seen therapists or are still seeing a therapist, but they're, they're needing a little bit more. Because it's because what they're doing now is different than what they were doing before. So it brings up all these things in a new way.

Leighann Lovely 32:32

Absolutely. And I am I'm a huge believer in, you know, hey, psychiatrist, if you need medication, talk therapy, if you're really dealing with some demons, a coach, if you're just not, you know, a life coach or a special specific coach, too. Because I don't believe that one hour a week or two hours a week is enough. Because they are they're trained to listen to you not to assist you in making changes in your life where coaches can actually help you make changes and put you on a path, not necessarily give you advice unless you're specifically seeing somebody to give you advice. But coaches can actually help you see the path and then help you and guide you to where that path is. Therapists are more of the common talk and will listen and get it out. And there is a defining difference. And trust me I have been through therapy. I mean, I've been through it all. So, and I loved I loved my psychiatrist, unfortunately, he retired a couple years ago, or a year or two year two, I don't know. And I was devastated. I cried. He cried. I got another one. My insurance changed. I had a amazing, amazing therapist that I saw for many, many years for anger management for talk therapy for he was he was a godsend. But there was just a certain point in which things that he could not help me do. And that was where I needed something else in my life. So I'm all for that. But there's something else that you said in there. You made a comment about forgiveness and self love and the greatest gift that anybody can give themselves is forgiveness, forgiveness of themselves, and forgiveness of other people. I have seen so many people out there that hold on to trauma and hold on to things because they remain angry. Mm hmm. And, and and trust me we all have traumas in our lives. We all have we We all have reasons to be horribly mad at somebody horribly. But the greatest gift that I ever gave myself was saying, You know what I'm done with being angry. And, and you'd mentioned that and I just wanted to throw that out there to the masses, that is the greatest gift you can possibly give yourself is reconciling the anger within you, because you're not that person doesn't give a shit. If you're angry at them. You're only on yourself.

Michelle Vande Hey 35:30

And they may not even know. Right? It's like, a lot of times with people that you have this like anger and resentment for they don't even realize it. And so you holding on to that is only hurting you.

Leighann Lovely 35:43

Yep. Yeah. Well. So let's, we've gone off on a tangent, I want to bring this back to I want to bring this back to like more of the work environment. How do you and I know that you work more with individuals, but you do some speaking engagements? And you do? So tell me a little bit about you know, that? And do you work with, you know, organizations to come in and, you know, do any, you know, talks with, with companies or anything like that to try to, you know, assist with companies that may be or talks with them?

Michelle Vande Hey 36:23

Yeah, I can definitely do things like mini workshops, or speaking engagements to talk about, and like, the first piece, and anything that I talked about often is just awareness. And a lot of times, leaders don't even realize that, oh, yeah, I should, we should be more trauma informed. And so it's like, just having that awareness, and the awareness for the whole organization or the whole company to be like, Okay, we're, we want to take this step, to be more trauma informed. So people feel like this is a company that they can feel safer to come to win, they have things going on, and that we're here to support them as well. And that starts with like awareness of not only the leaders within everyone in the organization, and how to kind of manage that, then when you're learning a new way to do things to it. I mean, and that goes back to, again, what you were talking about, with when we were talking about, like the generational trauma stuff, it's like we're, we're unlearning parts of the organization, what what used to be, and now we're relearning a new way to do things. And it's okay to unlearn. And that's a big thing, too, is like knowing that just because their company did it differently before doesn't mean that the company was bad before. It's just now they're learning new ways to do things. And it's okay to change, and adapt and shift. And we really should. And that's the same thing with individuals, like, I don't need to be just because there's certain things that it's like, oh, my parents did this. And that's why I'm this way. That doesn't mean that I can just blame them for the rest of my life and that it's their fault, right? Like, it's like, no, like, let's be honest, and be like, Okay, I just need to unlearn it, right. And so like, as an organization, it's like, what do we want to start unlearning? So we can relearn a new way to do it. And being open to doing that, right.

Leighann Lovely 38:31

Yeah. And unfortunately, there are a lot of organizations that are still. And I say this because they lead, they still are leading with the hard fist, which is only in turn just almost traumatizing their employees. Yeah. I mean, when you go to work, and you go home every day angry and pissed off? That is not. I mean, that's not the environment to be in when you're scaring your employees into compliance. Right. That's not, you know, so there is a lot to still be learned by many organizations out there on how to properly manage. And I think that that part of that is being trauma informed in order to understand the sensitivity the empathetic side of, of managing.

Michelle Vande Hey 39:27

Yeah, yeah. Because to like the did you say like the iron fist? Yeah. Yeah. That it's like, you can get compliance with that. But do you want to with that, oftentimes, you're probably going to end up with more turnover, because if it's affecting people, then it's like, they're not going to want to stay there. And so then you're spending a lot more money on training and hiring and all that kind of stuff. It's much more cost effective to keep your employees than to have to find new ones, especially nowadays, too. It's Like, it's so much better be able to keep people. And so instead of focusing on only the short term, it's like, you can get results, it may take a little bit more initially with not having an iron fist, but the long term benefits are way outweigh the short term benefits. Right?

Leighann Lovely 40:19

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. Well, we are coming to time. So I want to ask you the question of the season, what would you change about your job? Or the practice that people have in your role? If you could?

Michelle Vande Hey 40:35

Oh, what would I change? I think I would, I would change that I wouldn't have to do everything myself. I would hire someone sooner. Um, I mean, I think like, knowing that, like, my like, zone of genius, so to speak, is in coaching and in speaking and facilitating, and if I could change something, it would be that I don't have to worry about writing all my emails. And, and I do have someone that helps me a little bit. But like, if I didn't have to, like, do all of the all of the business stuff, the administrative stuff, that would be so nice.

Leighann Lovely 41:20

And what I find wildly hilarious is that at the beginning of this conversation you started off with, I didn't want to become a coach. And now you're saying, my zone of genius in the coaching and which is I mean, absolutely amazing. You fought it in the beginning. And now you've submitted to that your zone of genius, isn't that and that's absolutely awesome. You know, how full circle this conversation has come? Yeah, that's perfect. Yes. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Michelle Vande Hey 41:54

Yeah, I mean, they can find me on social media, Michelle Vande Hey. On LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, otherwise, if someone prefers email, Michelle at light of love coaching.com. And yeah, just send me a message. I'm always open to a conversation a question. I love meeting new people and having conversations like this, because that's, that's how you create changes is conversations and opening minds and opening hearts.

Leighann Lovely 42:24

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining me. This has been an awesome conversation. Yeah, thanks, Leon. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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Conversations that often get pushed off, are the ones that feel uncomfortable, whether that be because we have to give a bad performance review, break up with someone, or talk about our financial situation and retirement plan. This conversation is the latter and my guest Dan Stich, Founder and Investment Representative, specializes in helping people have uncomfortable conversations in a comfortable way in order to find a path forward. Pivoting from Healthcare Administration nearly 4 years ago Dan found his passion in helping educate businesses and individuals. Not only is he brilliant, he is wildly down to earth.

Contact - Daniel Stich

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-stich-cpfa%C2%AE-609140b/

E-mail - danielstich@ffig.com

Phone - 262-853-4541

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started. I have an awesome guest on today Dan Stich, Dan was born and raised in Brookfield Wisconsin as the son of a solo practicing dentist and an educator. He grew up in healthcare and saw firsthand the peaks and valleys of running your own small business as well as garnered the passion to share knowledge and assist in educating individuals on difficult topics. Dan graduated from the University of Wisconsin lacrosse and attended Marquette University for graduate school. During his time at Marquette, he was drawn into the world of healthcare specifically managed care and started a career in healthcare administration. First, starting on the insurance side and moving to the provider side, Dan negotiated multimillion dollar contracts with some of the largest names in the Wisconsin healthcare industry. After over 13 years in the health care administration, Dan chose to shift his focus to financial planning, and has built a practice focused on working with small businesses pre retirement-age individuals, and medical professionals. He enjoys educating and presenting on all topics related to retirement planning, including Social Security timing, long-term care planning, retirement income planning, and financial basis. Dan earned his certified fiduciary plan advisor designation through the National Association of planned advisors, increasing his knowledge of qualified and nonqualified retirement plans for businesses. He has a passion for assisting business owners and offering their employees quality options for planning educating opportunities, as well as working with the owners for their succession plans. Dan is licensed to practice in multiple states including Wisconsin, Minnesota, Illinois, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Georgia and South Carolina. I'm excited to have this great conversation with a brilliant individual and someone who has become a friend.

Dan Stich 03:08

Stich Financial Partners and Futurity First Securities America are separate entities. The information presented here today is not specific to any individual's personal circumstance, and is not intended to provide investment tax legal or retirement advice or recommendations. To the extent that material concerns tax matters. It's not intended to be written to be used or cannot be used by a taxpayer for the purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed by the law. So the materials that were presented today are for general information educational purposes, based upon publicly available information from sources believed to be reliable. The information in these materials may change at anytime without notice, and securities are offered through securities America, Inc, Member FINRA slash SIPC, stick financial partners and securities, American companies are separate entities.

Leighann Lovely 04:00

Dan, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have you. Why don't you?

Dan Stich 04:05

Yes, it's great.

Leighann Lovely 04:06

Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself? Sure. Well, again, thanks so much for setting this up. I'm super pumped to be able to talk to you and it's always nice to just have fun conversation, right? So yeah, so I run my own financial planning practice. It's called stick financial partners. And we're located in New Berlin, Wisconsin, where I live with my wife Carolyn and our three kids. Willie, David and Lauren. And we we love the community and just just love being a part of that. And you know, it's, it's kind of, it's funny, like I grew up in Brookfield and I literally migrated five minutes south to New Berlin, right? So everybody talks about moving other places. I moved five minutes away from where I grew up, but I just love the area. Love Milwaukee love Wisconsin, and just really happy to stay here and build a career. We're out of it, you know, so Yeah, awesome. You know it's funny. We all complain about the weather in Wisconsin. Yet us lifers we stay and deal with the the winters and the tundra that is Wisconsin. And then we enjoy the two or three months of flaring, blistering hot summer. And then we go back and complain about the crappy weather, right?

Dan Stich 05:27

Yeah, this week, like it's gotten up to 80 85 88. And, you know, and like, three weeks ago, we had a chance for snow. So we got through our 10th month of winter, and now we're dealing with summer. And, you know, it was it was, it's kind of funny to Leighann like, you know, being a business owner, taking a day off is is difficult, right? Because it's just you. And so I was able to take a day off on Wednesday, I took my daughter with I went with her class actually as a chaperone to Old World Wisconsin for their field trip. And it was awesome. But I was literally dreading because in 88 degree weather and like, old, you know, old homes from when Wisconsin became a state and all of that, and I'm going oh my gosh, you know, like, why am I complaining about this? It was like 20 degrees a couple months ago. And I, I wasn't complaining about that. So

Leighann Lovely 06:20

right, right. Well, and you don't going outside? You know, when it's 20 degrees, you're like, Okay, you got to bundle up gotta cover my face, because I might get you know, ice on it if I don't. And then when it's 80 degrees nice out beautiful. And what in California? That's their? That's their winter.

Dan Stich 06:42

Right? Right. Oh, I know. And here we are, like lathering up on sunscreen right away, because we haven't gotten there, quote, unquote, you know, base layer, right? And all that stuff, which I don't know about you, but I never get a base layer anymore. Because it's like, I don't know, I don't get to spend as much time out in the sun. So come September, I still look is is, you know, like, I still get sunburned. So I'm like, Oh my god.

Leighann Lovely 07:07

So I have to I have two colors. I have extremely white and red.

Dan Stich 07:15

And so true. And my, my wife, she's you know, she's like the one who is you know, we don't want to get you know, when he gets skin cancer. You don't want to do this. You don't wanna do that. So yeah, I mean, we are like lathering up our kids before they get outside every single day. So we like I seriously, I, you know, and this is don't don't construe this as a stock tip, right. But I should really should buy stock and some kind of, you know, like, banana boat or something like that. Because I think I spend a good majority of our dollars and disposable income on skincare products during the summer, it's, it's nuts. Well,

Leighann Lovely 07:49

here's the thing that I do, I lather my daughter up to the point where she's like, stab, stab, and then I set the bottle down with the intent of coming back to it and putting it on myself. But I'm still chasing, you know, the moving target, of course, because she's five, the moving target trying to make her look that she doesn't have like white goop all over her. And then we'll rush and we'll get in the car and go somewhere, and my husband looked at me and go, you put sunblock on right? And I go, Well, I put it on our daughter. Great. Well, so I'm gonna be read for the next week. So

Dan Stich 08:23

you did the real responsible thing, right? As a parent, you took care of the kids, you you're supposed to be taking care of, you know, so often right, as parents and in life in general, right? Not to get all philosophical here. But we always take care of other people. But we really need to take care of ourselves. And that's just goes to that point, too, right? We're always worried about them, right? But we don't necessarily worry about putting that stuff on our face. And like you said, yeah, now you're going to deal with being read looking like a lobster for a week, you know, it happens.

Leighann Lovely 08:52

This is actually a really good transition into what you know why I've run you on now that we've, you know, just kind of gone off a little clip here. All right, this is a really good transition into why I asked you to come on the podcast today. It's something that's utterly important about, you know, as an employee that's transitioning, or, as a business owner, you know, you work with a lot of individuals who are on the move. And it's true, sometimes it is secondary to take care of ourselves. But one of the most vital, important things is that we take care of our money. Right.

Dan Stich 09:35

Right. Right. Right. And it's, it's true. You know, I think that's, that's the thing where we were, as people in general, right, and I can't I can't talk about this for everybody, but I would say a majority of people care about others before they care about themselves and they're always trying to do other things. You know, and they're trying to take care of family members and, and things in there not necessarily They're always taking care of themselves and kind of keeping a weather eye on their future. You know, and that's, that's really, I think, when it gets down to it, the core of, of what we do as advisors, is really trying to keep people on a path. We're kind of an unbiased third party that, you know, meets with people and kind of draws out and ask questions like, well, what are your goals? You know, what do you want to do? What do you want to accomplish? When do you want to retire? Why don't you know, those kinds of questions? And I think people have these ideas in their minds, but they don't. It's not something you bring up, right. Like, it's not something I don't know, you know, you're not just sitting around on a Friday night having a beer with your friends and saying, like, hey, you know, like, how much do you have in your retirement account? But I don't know, we just don't really, unless you're really close to people, you don't do that. But even with your spouse or significant other partner loved ones, anything, you don't have those conversations on a day to day either. And that's why it's important, because those can be tricky conversations to navigate. Right, right. And so you know, I'll tell you sometimes my job, I feel like more like a counselor, right, than really an advisor, because I'm coming in and kind of drawing up questions. And that's why when there's there's two people in a financial relationship, I want to meet with both of them, you'd never want to just meet with one or the other. Because there's a lot of questions that are asked, and we need to really draw that out. But yeah, it is, it's a really important thing. I mean, I think finances and financial wellness can lead to mental wellness. You know, we talked about that we just got out of mental health month, right? That was the month of May. And there's really been a push, which has been fantastic in the United States to talk about mental health. But a huge part of that is financial health. And I'm not talking about having to be a millionaire and have so much money that you don't know what to do with but living paycheck to paycheck or freaking out where your next thing is coming from, or how am I going to pay for this? How am I prepping for this? How am I going to retire all that stuff? Right? It leads to a lot of anxiety, which puts us right back into me into mental health awareness. Right. So I think a huge component of that is, is talking about it. And so we do we're unbiased third parties, right? We come in we I want to know everything. I don't want to know, you know, if you don't tell me stuff, I'm How can I diagnose what's wrong?

Leighann Lovely 12:22

Right. Well, and here, you said a couple of things here that, you know, kind of sparked one, what are the number one triggers for, you know, one mental health, but also for a marriage falling apart? I mean, and that is a huge life altering event. It's conversations or arguments, start with money.

Dan Stich 12:47

Right? Right. Definitely. And I'm not trying to pretend I'm a marriage counselor or anything like that. But I think it's just a key component, right? We have, we have different advisors, and we have different people in our lives, right. And I have different partners that we work with on on these pieces. And it's about having all of those tools in your toolkit, right? For Success. We're just a small cog in a small part of that. But there's other pieces, but I'll tell you, right, like, you're only as strong as your weakest link. And if you're not having those conversations, other parts of of your relationships, your marriage, your future, your financial wellness, your mental wellness, all that stuff is gonna fall apart, right? Because Because if there's one weak spot, that weak spot is going to be pulled and intense. And before you know, you're in trouble, you know, so

Leighann Lovely 13:39

well, and it is I mean, not having, if you have a relationship where one person in and I'm going back to, you know, you want to talk to, to, to, you know, both parties who are involved, if you have one person who has no understanding of finances in the home. There, that's right, there is a is is could potentially be an issue in some cases and other cases, one takes care of the finances, the other does others. I mean, it's, that's sure to be a slippery slope, but So,

Dan Stich 14:14

It is, Yeah, and you and you have to filter that out, right? Every situation is different, you have to feel around all of that. But still, when decisions are made, very rarely do I want you know, let me like I should say never but there are situations sometimes where things are made, you know, without the other spouse or their or loved one, whatever right is, you know, partner but you know, it's like I said, it's very, very rare. In fact, I can't even remember the last time that we that that happened. So it's just important because it's it opens up those lines of communication even if they say I don't want to know it. Well what happens in case somebody passes away or there's an emergency situation or god forbid, you know, any of that, that happens. Now, all of a sudden you've got a party who you know, quote, A quote was disinterested before, whatever. But now all of a sudden, they're thrown to the forefront. And they've got to figure it out, they got to pick up the pieces. And that's, you know, that's why I tell people to you know, and that even goes for for older individuals who's you know, who have their kids involved in their, their lives and their their futures as well to it's important that share that information, as long as they're trustworthy, and you can trust them to do that, and do the right thing and act on your behalf. You know, something happens to your parent, or your grandparent or aunt or uncle, and all of a sudden, you know, you're grabbing at loose ends trying to find things, and when most of that can be done upfront, beforehand, you know, not everything, but jeez, you know, you least you know, where 80% 90% of things are. I tell people where I give seminars a lot, Leanne, I talked to people about long term care planning and other things. And I said, you know, one of the best gifts that you can give to your family, is the fact that they won't have to make decisions on your future going forward. Right. So like, if you, you have things set, you know, Power of Attorney for Health Care things, so they know your end of life issues, all that stuff. You know, God forbid, you have to make that decision in a tense moment, when you know already what that mom said, you know, hey, no extra extreme measures. That's like, such great peace of mind. So, you know, again, it goes down a little different tangents. But I think that's as a role as an advisor. Let's say we do, right, we talked about the what if scenarios, right? But all of that is in you know, there's a couple of definitives in our world, right? One, we're getting older every day, right? To eventually we're going to, I'm getting Okay, all right? Well, you found the fountain of youth, if you can share the address for that I'll more than happily jump in. But, but death is undefeated as well, too, right? So we were all going to die. And it's kind of how you plan your olding aging years. But then also, what do you want to do with estates? What do you want to do with that kind of stuff? What are your wishes? How do you want to affect the next generation positively? All that stuff, right? These are discussions that you have, because, again, the more that you pre plan, the less of an emergent situation, it becomes.

Leighann Lovely 17:13

Well, and just having this conversation reminds me why people don't want to have this conversation. Right? It's, and I, you know, I'm laughing while I say this, because, you know, I have obviously I, you know, my husband, and I have all of the pieces put together, you we've have our, you know, will our power of attorney, all of that stuff is set out. And I remember how uncomfortable it was. You know, we put this obviously, all in place, when we had our daughter, it was like, Okay, we've put this off long enough, we should do this. And I remember how uncomfortable it was, where it was like, Okay, well, what are your wishes? What are your wishes? What do we do with our money? Where does this all go? Who's gonna be the power of attorney, and I remember when I called my brother, and I was like, I need you to come over and sign some paperwork. And he's like, What paperwork? And I'm like, Well, it's my will and my power of attorney. And he's like, Oh, God, really? And I'm like, sorry. But it needs to be done like this. It's, it's, but you're everything that you just said, I if God forbid, my husband and I were to be together and, and die, one, I don't, I don't want there to be a single question as to where my money goes, and where my daughter goes. And I should have said that in a different order where my daughter goes, and where my money goes. Right? Right? Because, and it's going to obviously my money goes with my daughter, but whoever is taking care of my daughter is got that money so that they can take care of her and hopefully have, you know, money continued to saved you for her when she's 18. But those are wildly wildly important aspects. And I mean, it as

Dan Stich 18:57

we don't want to, we don't want to talk about those scary things, right? We don't and, and, you know, a mentor of mine previously, I'd always said, you know, get comfortable being uncomfortable, right. And it's true, because that's part of my job. And that's part of everybody's job. Whenever you get out of your comfort zone, and you feel uncomfortable. That's when you accomplish the most I think, but at the same point, we're fearful of that. And again, that goes into everything in life, but especially in this, because these are just I mean, we have to ask these questions. And again, I, you know, I'll read the disclaimer here at the end of everything for me, but I'm not I'm not, you know, I'm not acting as a legal professional. I'm not acting as a tax professional or any of those things. And we have partners that we work with on all of that. But again, it's just drawing out those questions. I'm finding whether or not what people's wishes are, because I can tell you, I mean, when's the last time somebody asks you like, what are your hopes? What are your dreams? What are your goals, like, people don't ask that right? Unless you have a really good group, group of friends or family or whatever, you know, when maybe you'll ask that but it very rarely happens because you're in the grind That's right. And you're, you're constantly worried about the next step. The next day, the next this the next that, where's the next client coming from? Where's the next meeting? You know, I gotta get to my kids. Like, we were just chatting about this schools ending soon, like, what are we gonna do with our kids? Right? Like, oh my god, we got to figure this out, they get the we get we get eight hours of care every day now at school and now we got to figure out what we're gonna do with them for the summer, you know. So

Leighann Lovely 20:23

maybe maybe we can just all drop them off like at the same park and they can all entertain each other.

Dan Stich 20:29

Lord of the fly style. Just let them loose, let them go Lord of the Flies, go elect a leader somehow, right? That's so funny.

Leighann Lovely 20:41

We'll just erect walls around them so that we know that they can't go anywhere.

Dan Stich 20:46

They may not want to go home though, after I

Leighann Lovely 20:50

have weapons that they've shimmied out of like, I don't know, rocks and sticks, worse doing throw in the food.

Dan Stich 20:59

Right? Right. And I know, you know, the funny part is, is they're so fiercely independent, you know, but then at certain points all of a sudden, when they need you, you know, then they come crawling back and they, they want to do their own things. And I don't want to do this. I don't want to put my shoes on, but then also dead. Can you help me put my shoes, you know, I mean, it's just it's so funny how that happens. But that's because, again, there's this inherent trust, right? That's, that's what it is. They know that at the end of the day, no matter what they say or do to us, we still love them. And you know, and that's where you find people in your life like that as well, too. I mean, and not that I have clients that are coming in and you know, being like, I don't wanna put my shoes on, or they're yelling. I mean, like, like, I'll have a conversation every once awhile, like, hey, you know, perhaps we want to look at life insurance for the situation or disability insurance or, you know, have you thought about a rollover here or there, whatever, right of assets. And, you know, every once awhile, they'll leave, and they'll be like, No, I don't think I'm going to do that. And then all of a sudden, they'll come back a few months later and say that, you know, maybe we want to move forward with this. So again, it's but it's because, you know, this term gets thrown a lot around a lot, LeAnn and, you know, fiduciary, right? Like, we hear that in my industry, what is it being a fiduciary, and people use that in advertisements and everything, and we're supposed to all be fiduciaries, I can't imagine somebody acting in our, in our role as not being a fiduciary, but we're acting in our clients best interest, right. So from a monetary perspective, that's what we're supposed to do. And protection wise, asset wise, anything like that we're supposed to, it's not supposed to be to the benefit of us, it's supposed to be to the benefit of the client, at the end of the day, it's really what it draws down to. And I think if you keep that central in mind, you know, and it's kind of like, how we take care of our kids to like, it's to the benefit of that, right. Like, a lot of times, we sacrifice things in our own life for the betterment of our own children. And I'm not trying to say my clients are children, but we you they are that that's how you treat it, right, you want to see them succeed and push them towards success. And so, you know, that there's a lot of lot of things that go along with that, but it is part of that whole journey, you know, and it's a growth and it's a relationship, it's a long term relationship, hopefully, you know, hopefully, it's not transactional, hopefully, what you want it to be, is something that lasts for a long period,

Leighann Lovely 23:24

I don't, I can't imagine having a transactional relationship with your financial advisor, it just doesn't seem like it would be beneficial to the person going to the financial advisor, I mean, it just, unless you specifically need help with one thing, like, Hey, I just need you to help me do XYZ or,

Dan Stich 23:51

well, there are there are certainly there are those situations, you know, I mean, because you know, at the end of the day, too, I'm not trying to always replace what somebody has in place, what I'm trying to do is kind of enhance what they have. And I work with other advisors and help you know, help play some of their clients into insurance products and different things that maybe they don't focus on. So again, I you know, we we partner on certain things, but at the end of the day, it's it's card part of a conglomerate, right, or a group of of people that you find your your area of expertise, and I think that's, that's something to again, I can't be everything that everybody right, and I don't think anybody can do that. But especially even in our profession, you know, we have to find what we're good at and what we know, or we like to do the clients that type situations and we also have people that we have to refer out to if we if it comes to a situation where we don't necessarily do that. So that's where I think you know, a lot of people in our in our industry have an adversarial relationship and I think there's so many ways that we can work together because again at the end of the day We're trying to take care of people's financial futures. And there's a lot of opportunity out there because people just aren't prepped very well for their retirement. So I find again, that working with other people and finding ways to collaborate, just makes a heck of a lot more sense than always being, you know, kind of pounding at each other and competing for everything.

Leighann Lovely 25:21

Right. So I have a specific question that, you know, obviously, this this season, I've been talking a lot about, you know, employee retention, recruitment, all that kind of stuff. However, with that being said, a lot of employees are on the move. Right. And with employees being on the move, that leaves a gap for some, some things that need to be handled and handled properly, which is, you know, 401 K's employee has been at a company, they have a 401 K. And I've heard it said, and this is where it's scary, because I, I know enough that this is right. But I don't know, all the you know, all of the fine details around it. You know, people have said, well, you know, my 401k is it's secure, it's fine. It's sitting there. Why do I need to move it? And I know enough to say, Well, no, no, you don't want to just have it sit there. So why is it vitally important to make sure that you're handling that 401k that's sitting in? What is it? What is the big one fidelity or wherever it's sitting? You know, I'm assuming that you work with a lot of employee employees that are on the move, and we help them guide what to do with that chunk of money.

Dan Stich 26:45

Yeah, and that's great question. And thanks for bringing that up. Because it is, it's an important thing, right. So most people think there's this magic number out in retirement accounts, it's 59 and a half years old. And that's when you can start drawing money out of that without paying 10% early withdrawal penalty. Okay, so I think when we think of, that's the first thing, so a lot of people think that they have to leave assets there until 59 and a half, because they can't pull them out, they're gonna pay this 10% penalty. And that's not really the case, right. So if you have left a job, or you've left previous jobs, and you, you may have multiple 401k, as I refer to them as their kind of orphan 401k is right there, there, you're not, you're not contributing to them anymore. They're under the previous company's platform. And quite honestly, they could be in wrong investment strategies for you at that time, or they could be in, they could be in the same fund even. But they could be multiple amounts in different funds, right. And that's why it's important to talk to somebody, a professional like myself, who can kind of look at all those things. But when when you leave a job, whether through your own or whether you're you're fired, or you leave or terminate should say terminated, or been terminated, or you leave on your own, it's a triggering event. And what that allows you to do is allows you to access the 401k and move it through and they do a rollover is what they call that into a separate account into a different account, and you're not accessing the dollars for your own use, you're not paying the tax penalty, and you're not paying the normalized tax rate on it, you're actually moving it into a separate account. And we do this a lot, because then it gives you a little bit more control on how you want to invest those dollars, every company that you're with, as a set investment strategy within their existing 401 K 403 B, any of the other retirement accounts that they may have. And that platform, while it's it's good for the people, because you can contribute something in it's a great benefit to have, it may not fit your personal objectives, right. So especially as you move on, so it is important to have that conversation and be able to roll it out of there rollover into another account. And like I said, it gives you control over that. So then, you know, you can set it up as a as a personal IRA and contribute to that as well to keep contributing to it. And maybe cut down on some of the fees and everything that are associated with having your own personal IRA. Again, you can't contribute back to a company that you were a part of. You need to you know, in order to access those dollars, pull them out, but it is a good question because again, I think people there's this big misnomer out there to like unless it's an employee stock purchase option. A lot of people think well you know, I'm getting this 401 K through work and it's invested in that company and it's like no it's not you know, like if you worked for a lot and I don't want to name any large companies but you know if you worked for XYZ corporate Corporation, right and they had a 401k It's not like those 401k dollars were going in to buy stock of XYZ company right they were going into by A particular mutual fund. So people in their head, I hear this all the time, people think, wow, you know, the XYZ company is doing great, I gotta keep my dollars there because it's performing so well. And it's like, no, that has very little, if nothing to do with, with what your investment strategy is through there. So

Leighann Lovely 30:17

interesting. And if it's in your 401k is sitting there, and the company, like you said, the company is not investing those dollars, you know, properly or they don't have somebody managing that 401k properly, you could potentially just have your money sitting there and really not performing for you at all.

Dan Stich 30:39

Yeah, and again, it's not it's not necessarily maybe that they're managing them wrong, it's just maybe that they're every company has to pay fees in order to have particular investment strategies on their platform. And so it's it's extra again, and, you know, that gets into a whole different thing. Because there, you know, there are companies that have 401 K's that that have been set up, and they've never been touched. And we come across that a little bit. And I work with businesses to do that as well, too. You know, we look at plans that maybe aren't performing to their highest and we, and you know, how we find these plans, right, as I'm talking to somebody who used to work there, our client, and I looked through this, and say, Yeah, you know, we might want to look at the whole overall picture of this plan. You know, and a lot of that has to do with employee contributions are low, or performance is low, or any of that kind of stuff. And those are all indicators that I can look at. But realistically, like I said, for the individual, the biggest part is, is it gives you control over those dollars, that you can take a little bit more risk, or you can take less risk, you can move those dollars into something else, instead of it just being on the platform that the company has. So the company's platform may be great, but it also just gives you more flexibility to move it off of that platform.

Leighann Lovely 31:57

Interesting. That's and that's, I mean, it's good to know that because some of the myths that are out there are, I'm blown away by, you know, I've been I've heard, you know, well, I shouldn't move that because, again, some of the things that you you just hit on, and I'm like, wait, what? Why? Why would you keep it, you know, or, you know, you they've moved jobs five or six times, and they have five or six accounts sitting out there. So they could roll it into a Roth, an IRA? A whole gamut of different,

Dan Stich 32:35

correct, right. Yeah, and again, there's, there's different reasons that you could do that. And every situation is different. So I can't give a blanket statement that you'd want to be want to move it but yes, from like, you know, from a tax perspective, perhaps you want to look at and see if you can open up a Roth and you can use some of those dollars and, and convert it into a Roth and pay the taxes now, knowing that in retirement, that that money in principle will grow tax free, and you can access it tax free in retirement. So, you know, that's the big difference, too. And, again, LeAnn, to with all the changes, there's, there's so much stuff happening in this realm on the 401k side, and retirement planning side, a retirement plan side from the federal government level, people are realizing that we're in a crisis, right? We have, we have, I think it's 10 to 15,000 people a day turn 65. Okay, like going forward. That's, that's a huge number, right? When you think about it, so that's, that's the traditional age of retirement. Now, we all know that Social Security timing retirement now is about 67. So most people are working between 65 and 67. And they're retiring at that point, but they're not many of them don't have assets, they're their biggest asset that they're thinking of is Social Security. And then they do have some retirement assets, but they don't have a lot built up. So now the government is, is stepping in and you know, with the secure act, 2.0, and other things that are coming through, and again, this is a lot of gobbledygook that people might not understand. But that's again, so he talked to professional, right, because they we monitor this thing, they're looking there's contributions that are now maybe going to be made automatically when you first started a job. So you're going to have to opt out of a 401k instead of opting in, like you used to have to wait, there was a waiting period of 60 days, 90 days a year, whatever the company is set up, it's changing that because there is a crisis.

Leighann Lovely 34:29

And that's because of you know, we've heard talk of Social Security, possibly going away drying up and and so am I correct in that? I mean, we will have this for sure.

Dan Stich 34:44

And right. When we hear that and the the official unofficial answer on that would be, it'd be political suicide to take it away. So they will find something. It could be limited, it could be changed. These are kind of the things and what we hear over and over Again, but yes, you're exactly right in the fact that the government is trying to solve a problem by creating a solution and are they creating a solution? Are they creating a problem? I mean, I that's kind of your question right? Now people are coming in, they start a job. And on day one, they're going to be contributing into a retirement account. What if somebody leaves after two months, three months, five months, now we're going to have a lot of those, whether that come orphan 401k is right, we're gonna have a lot of those sitting around in different places. And so there's going to be a lot of work to be done. But that's where, again, with all these changes, some of that some of this dependency, you're gonna have to make sure that your plan if you're a business owner, small business owner, especially, right, who may or may not be getting all the management on this plan, you're gonna have to make sure that your plan is compliant going forward with the federal rules. And, you know, I think there's a lot of things that should be done now before, you know, if they're coming down the pipeline, and we know that this is happening, I wouldn't we want to change them now versus waiting until the 11th hour, right? Because that's what a lot of, I mean, I don't know about you, I've been a procrastinator a lot, a lot in my life. And thank God that hasn't rolled on to my kids, because I swear, I can't get my daughter to not do her homework right away. It's pretty impressive. But, you know, first things like this, you just do not want to procrastinate, because all of a sudden, it'll be it's gonna be a block of everybody trying to get everything done. Before they need to be done.

Leighann Lovely 36:24

They always that's always the way that government well, right.

Dan Stich 36:27

But let's people to like, right, we don't want to do anything till the last minute, right? Well, we absolutely have to well, and

Leighann Lovely 36:33

I'm opposite, like, I will start formulating like how I'm going to finish something before I even have the go ahead to do something. I'm, but I'm the I'm the the weird one. I've been told Anyways, my husband's like, why are you trying to solve a problem before the problem actually exists? We don't even know that that's going to be the problem. And I'm like, but I'm getting ready for it. Right? Like, I'm, like, I'm not sure that that's a good thing. And I'm like, Well, I just want to be ready. Like, yeah, but I blame my dad for that, by the way.

Dan Stich 37:04

We can't run from our genes, right? We can't run from where we are. I always tell people, you know, like, My People always say like, you know, the Apple didn't fall far from the tree. And I'm like, Yeah, well, my apple tree must have been on a hill because it tried to roll away and all it did was rolled downhill right into the stump like, I'm right back to it. You know, I mean, I'm, I'm my family to a tee. Right. So, right. Yeah. Remember that apple tree on a hill? That's me. So

Leighann Lovely 37:28

yeah, I I'm 100%. Like, there's been times where my husband's like what's wrong with your dad? And I'm like, he, I remember. Here's one. Here's a really good. So my dad, his trunk got stuck, closed. And so he was really frustrated with us. And it was just his trunk just got stuck. So he, he was supposed to come over and hang out for you know, a couple of minutes to say hi, he literally any I think he was dropping off our daughter. He literally drove in, took our daughter out of the car, dropped her off said Okay, I gotta go and left. Because he was so frustrated. He drove to the quick, the closest gas station and just started messing with his truck. Because yeah, he just, that's his money. But that's my mentality. Like my husband called me. And he goes, you know, the the generator is not working. And I'm on my way home, I walk in the door, say hi. And I go directly out to the generator. And my husband goes, What are you doing? Mike, when you said it wasn't working? He goes, right. Yeah, it's like dinner time. Like, you don't have time to do this right now. And I'm like, Why did you call me then? You shouldn't have told me until I had time to do it. Because in my brain, like, if, if there's an issue, I have to do it that second there is no

Dan Stich 38:46

it's just that I'm wired. That's me, like, you know, the other day, right? Like it got hot here, right? As we mentioned way back before it got hot all of a sudden. So we put our air conditioning on and the air conditioner was not performing as well as it should. So clearly, there was something going on. So again, I do not pretend to be an HVAC repair person. I don't play one on TV. I don't do any of that kind of stuff. But I know enough things as being a homeowner for you know, decades, right? Like, you know, like, you got to take care of certain things. So I go out and I'm cleaning off all this stuff. And I'm doing as much as I know how to do and I checked the filter to make sure that it was clean, do all that stuff, right? But then again, I'm out over my skis, right, like that's, that's as far as I've got. So then I'm sitting there at night, thinking like, you know, I'm just spinning in my head, like, what else can I do? What else can I do? And really, I had a professional coming in the next day. Right? So I should have just let that go. But I couldn't stop thinking about it. One because obviously you know there's a cost associated with things right so I didn't want it to be like oh my gosh, we're gonna need a new whole system here. But to the other part is is what if it stops working in the middle of night, you know, and all of a sudden we've got a 90 degree day the next day and it's hot and it's not working, you know? It's the what ifs right and those what if scenarios, so you know it And then as people to like, we tried to take those out, like, literally I called the person, he was coming the next day. So I did everything that I could and should be doing. And he took care of it and everything's fine. The house is great right now. But I think we sit and we worry about stuff at night, when we should just be able to take things off of our plate. I'll see. Other people handle it,

Leighann Lovely 40:19

and I don't sit and worry, I would be out there. Like, why did I pull the thing apart, and I'm like, I am bound and determined, and I will be researched. Like, I I'm one of those those people like, I will do whatever it takes to fix it and research it. And like, I'm just I can't let it go. And that's, that's my downfall. I can't let it go. What, which has made me a very handy person around the house, I know how to patch holes in the wall, I know how to do light, electrical work, light plumbing work I have done, I've remodeled

Dan Stich 41:08

I'm gonna be calling you. I mean, I, there's certain things like I always figure with plumbing and electrical. If I touch it, it could make it worse. And then it's going to cost more like I can do a lot of other things. But yeah, when it comes to electrical and plumbing, I'm gonna be calling you, Lea.

Leighann Lovely 41:23

I changed I changed out, you know, all of the, you know, we needed one of those. I changed out like almost all of my electrical units, or just the plugs in the entire house sockets and yeah, in the entire house. I changed out a couple, you know, sockets because I didn't like the way they they functioned. But when it comes to like I had a fan in a room and I wanted to change where the fan was to we change the way the dining room was. So I needed the, you know, the chandelier and the fan to be swapped out that no, I don't do that. I don't know how and but I did install a fan where a chandelier used to be okay, that was just the swap out. So and then as far as plumbing, I completely remodeled an entire bathroom. A new toilets did the sink. You know all that. However, I also have two sinks that don't have shutoff valves in my lower level. I don't know how to do that. So I need a plumber to come in. You know, I do light stuff.

Dan Stich 42:33

Yeah, not surface. Yeah, I gotcha.

Leighann Lovely 42:37

Yeah, when it comes, there's a professional, you know, you gotta call on the professionals for some some stuff like, like, Well,

Dan Stich 42:43

I think I guess that you know, to go back. That's kind of a metaphor, though. on everything, right? Um, life, right is there's, there's certain things that we can handle. Like I always think every well, because of social media and everything else right now people are becoming experts on everything. And I always used to laugh like every four years, we would become political experts when there was an election year and every you know, we're this and that. And everybody tries to be an expert. I mean, heck, like, you know, listen, I have brothers and family who are doctors, I certainly could go on WebMD and diagnose myself with pretty much everything ever that comes up, right. But that's going down a serious rabbit hole, right? And before you know it, I'm gonna be dead next week. And I'm freaking out about that. So I always think like, you know, sure, like with what we do, and Finance, Financial planning, estate planning all of those pieces, right? People can can do some of these things themselves. But is that really the best way to do it? Right? Like, sure I can, I can wrap my if I break my arm tomorrow, I can probably wrap it in a makeshift cast at home. But is it going to heal properly? For the long term? Am I going to have some serious issues with it going forward? Most likely, yes. Right. So again, it's really, you know, we kind of it's that old metaphor like staying in your lane, right? Like it's okay to know everything and my job and most people's job. You want to educate other people, right and teach them about stuff. But you also have to trust that the professional is working in your best interest. So they educate you enough on what you need to know. But that's why you hire somebody to do something else. Right? That's what we hired. So I hired the HVAC guy to come over because he needed to fix it. I was out over my skis. I didn't know exactly what I was at the end. And honestly, I'm not putting Freon into my own AC unit. Like that's what we need it. I don't know how to do that. I don't have access to free and I can't just go buy it somewhere. I don't think I don't know. Maybe you can but again, why would I need to worry about that? Right? That would be one thing. I just don't you know, take it off my plate. Right. So

Leighann Lovely 44:41

yeah, yeah. And I I grew up again, I'm referencing my dad. My dad said to me years ago, he goes you don't have to you know business owners and my dad was not a business owner. He thought about it. He says you know, all my all my friends. You know our business. as owners, and I've sat around the table with them all, and they've asked me, Why don't you run your own business? And he goes, so I told him, here's what, you know, me and my wife make a year, should we open up our own business? And all of them went, Oh, you make that? Not as a business owner, and he goes, aha, should we open up? And they all went no, if you if, if you're making that, not as a business owner, just don't open up your own business. And he went, Okay, then I think I'll stick with where I'm at. And he once said to me, he goes, if you're going to run a business, because they were in the real estate market, so you know, his wife was a very successful agents, my dad ran an office, sometimes up to 60. Plus agents manage them. So very much like, you know, very much like running a business. And he says, You don't have to be the smartest person to run a business. But you have to be smart enough to hire people who are smarter than you. 100%. And that has stayed with me, forever. And it and it made me realize that there are people out there who have started businesses run businesses, who, without college education, and the thing that they were smart, the reason that they were so wildly successful, was not because they were so unbelievably smart. It was because they were smart enough to know their own limitations.

Dan Stich 46:42

100%

Leighann Lovely 46:43

and to go to the people who were the experts in what they were the experts in.

Dan Stich 46:50

And that's, that's the key, right? You surround yourself with better people like, I remember, there's a quote, I can't remember who it's attributed to. But I, my wife is a leadership training expert, right. So I learned a lot of great things. It's always nice to have somebody like that in your household. And they always use this quote, like, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. Correct. And it's so true, right? Because I get blown away by people, colleagues, other professionals that come across in my own world or other people that you know, that that I choose to partner with, as well to different business professionals, because they bring something to the table that I can't write, and I'm smart enough to know, like, you it takes a long time to build up credibility, right and a real short time to ruin that credibility like that you can lose it. And one of the biggest ways to ruin credibility, right is pretending to know something that you have no idea about, or over selling yourself and your abilities. And you know, that's my promise, right? Like, every day I wake up, and I'm like, Listen, if I don't know something, I will tell a client or I'll tell somebody like this. I don't know the answer to that yet. But I'm going to either find somebody who does, or we're going to find this out together. Right, right. And I think most people, if you if you recognize and realize that and you tell somebody you're new, you're vulnerable, saying, I don't know how to do that. Most people will accept that. And nobody, I don't know, I haven't had anybody yet be like, well, I can't believe you don't know how to do this, right? Like, no, it's something we just, we can't like I said before, you can't be everything to everybody all the time, right. But and we can't know everything about everything either, right? We can know a lot and all of our industries and our jobs and what we do, but there are always questions, and a lot of it is because it's changing all the time, too. So that's when you surround yourself with really good people and good, good connections. And that's, that's important. You know, I think, again, like I go back to that weak link part, but it really is true. That's why you you find the spots where you're missing, and you try to find a patch, right to figure out how to make that stronger. I mean, that's, that's the majority, a lot of networking, right, I met you at a networking event, we've done networking together, I've done I've done a bunch of pieces of network. That's what I'm networking for. Right? Like I'm networking to find people that can fill holes in my, in my offerings or toolkit that I don't have, or you know, looking at things differently or learning something new.

Leighann Lovely 49:18

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, Dan, we are coming to time and ask you the question of the season. Oh, boy, what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role or job if you cut?

Dan Stich 49:36

We've talked a lot about a lot of these things here. But I think probably the biggest thing is that there are some bad actors in our industry, right? And that's caused some some tainted views for people and I can't change their behaviors, but I guess maybe maybe the stigma and kind of the professionalism that that comes along with what We do I think some of that people are fearful that I think they're fearful of sharing their, their secrets, right? Like, and I, I don't know, you know, I'm not gonna go out and blab on anything, right? Like if I'm only as good as what my client tells me and how I keep that to myself and how we prep for that. So I think that that's probably the biggest thing. The the other part I did allude to before was about the collaborative piece. And I wish there were more people that were more collaborative. And I think there are advisors that are more willing to work together instead of be adversarial. Because again, I think that there's so much stuff that we can accomplish, and work together on things, but everybody just wants to grab everything for themselves. And I've never been that kind of person. Because again, like I, I focus on certain areas that I like, and I refer things out that I don't, or don't do. But I think I think that I wish there was more of that, I guess, more more collaboration. Because I think, as our industry becomes siloed, based by the companies that you work for, sometimes, right? Because we are told that everything here is the best way to do it, or the perfect way to do it. And and maybe that's because I'm independent, and I can I can work with with anybody. And I'm not beholden to a particular company or anything like that. I guess that's, that's part of it. And maybe my view is skewed on that a little bit. But again, I think that there's more of a global view on that of, of ways to collaborate more than be adversaries all the time.

Leighann Lovely 51:32

And I completely agree, I, I think that a lot of people go independent if they are capable, because they want the ability to partner with people who are in this in the same space. Right. And when they are with a larger corporation or organization. They are, I don't want to say shunned, but they are kind of slapped on the hand by Hey, wait, did you try to shove our product down their throat first?

Dan Stich 52:02

Yes, and you're like, it's one way it's toeing the line, it's got to be doing this instead of looking at it from a different viewpoint,

Leighann Lovely 52:09

correct. And I and I believe that, that with the onset of COVID, and the onset of all business needs to be done a different way. And it's okay to say, hey, customer, like, Let's customize your product, to make it exactly what you want it to look like. And that might mean, working with me on this and working with my partner on this to make it a perfect, beautiful package to be

Dan Stich 52:42

100%. Yeah, like, that's, that's what we want to do, right? Like, at the end of the day, we want clients, we want businesses, we want them to succeed. And we want to give them the tools to succeed. And in order to do that, it's not just keeping everything insular in our own, you know, that we're, we're trying to help them because we see that and we see what happens when people try to do it all themselves or take on too much, or whatever. So, yeah, I couldn't agree more. And that's, you know, a lot of bad things happen with COVID. But a lot of really good things happen as well, too. And I think people are looking at the world businesses, personal finance, mental health, all these things differently. And it's, you got to look at the good in that. So, you know, I'm not that I'm this ultimate, altruistic, positive all the time person. But at the same point, I look at the last three years of our lives, and I'm like, okay, like, what did change for the better? And those are the pieces that have, yeah, finding better ways to do things. You know, I think that's really what it comes down to.

Leighann Lovely 53:45

Yeah. And I think that there's also the driving force of the younger generation, who is saying, hey, and it's awesome. You know, I wish I could say that I'm part of the younger generation still, but I'm not. But I do see that their influence is, and we are starting to recognize that influence of that younger generation, saying, Hey, wait, can we do this a little bit different? Can we be a little softer on the the corporate structure, can we while and of course, you know, the whole software and the corporate structure, you know, all of a sudden, you can show up to a networking meeting in jeans and and it's like, wow, everybody's wearing jeans. This is kind of cool. I don't have to wear these uncomfortable dress pants that make me feel like I'm at and it's it's widely accepted in so many circles and it anyways, I digress. If no,

Dan Stich 54:36

no, it's it's totally true. But yeah, yeah. Like I said, that every generation I think, can learn something from previous generations or from the next generation as well, too. And that's the thing I think is there's a lot of people that disrespect older individuals, they call people boomers, right, the millennials were a bad word and all this stuff. And it's like when you get down to the core of it, it's about what they were groomed and Rolling up in, right? That changed them and made them who they are. But there's, you know, there's, there's 1000 different ways to do things. What we need to do is look at best practices from all those and kind of make that and a generational system. I mean, some of my 79 year old mother that she's getting on Zoom calls now I'm like, that's just shocking, right? But love it. Three years ago, she never would have gotten on a zoom call. Now. She does. Oh, there you go.

Leighann Lovely 55:24

Yeah. Oh, my grandparents. My grandmother has since passed, but they were doing FaceTime. I mean, I could only see like an eyeball or a nose, but they were like trying to get here. Like, they were like, Okay, guys, wait, you need to move it farther. But they were doing like fate. I'm like, Oh my gosh, like you're in your 80s. And you're doing FaceTime like, this is so cool. Like,

Dan Stich 55:48

yes, it is. It is it shows that they're willing to learn even till that age as well, too. So

Leighann Lovely 55:54

yeah. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about contacting you?

Dan Stich 55:58

Sure. So I will give you my phone number here. So my phone number is 262-853-4541. And if you don't want to talk to me directly, I sometimes I know people are can worry about that as well. They can shoot me an email. So my email is my full name. So it's Daniel stich. So d a n i e l s t i c h@ f f I g . com. And that stands for futurity first Insurance Group. That's where we that's the agency behind the scenes. So

Leighann Lovely 56:31

Excellent. Well, thank you so much, Dan, for coming on and talking with me today. I've really enjoyed it.

Dan Stich 56:36

This was awesome. Yeah, let's do it again. Let's do it on a different topic someday. Right? That would be awesome. All right.

Leighann Lovely 56:42

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, move, wisconsin, conversation, part, advisors, day, plan, sudden, good, call, dan, retirement account, business owner, clients, investment strategy, dollars, run, company, 401k

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Lori Goldstein has been an attorney for just short of 40 years, this offers her a unique perspective on how to serve her clients. She has an intimate understanding of both the employee side and the employer side and works to find a middle ground. This is an amazing conversation that dives into Metal health awareness in the workplace, non-competes and so much more. Join me for a great conversation with this brilliant women.

Contact Lori

Website - lorigoldsteinlaw.com

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/lori-goldstein-745a2812

Phone - 847-624-6640

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann lovely. Let's get this conversation started. We have a great show for you today. I've got Lori Goldstein. She has been an employment lawyer since 1984. She has a unique business and perspective representing both business owners and employees through her solo practice after receiving her undergrad and law degree from the University of Illinois, Lori work as a management side employment and litigation attorney for two midsize Chicago law firms before starting her own firm in 2011. Her advice on workplace rights and issues ranged from discrimination, harassment and retaliation to equal pay leave of absence and wage hour matters. Lori also drafts negotiates and reviews contracts including employment, non-compete independent contractor and severance agreements, employer compliance audits and training including sexual harassment training. Now required for all Illinois employers plus administration claims and defense of charges of employment law violation are also a regular part of her practice. Lori also regularly represents and writes on employment law topics. Lori is practical and passionate about helping organizations and individuals achieve peaceful solutions to workplace issues, find closure and move forward. Giving back to the community is also very important to her. She's held several volunteer and nonprofit board positions including New Trier High School Board of Education Governing Board of the North southern Special Education District. Laurie serves as a board member at Career Resources Center in Lake Forest and currently serves as a board member and CO the liaison of Diversity Equity and Inclusion committee for EP wng professional women's network group and volunteer attorney with the lawyers for the creative arts. She is a member of the American Bar Association and Chicago Bar Association and the Illinois chapter of National Employment Law Association. Lori is always an active member of north north shore law and trusted advisors counsel. Laurie has been honored by several awards including Superlawyers, Illinois 2016 to 2023 Superlawyers Illinois 100 top lawyers and 2017, 19, 20, 22 and 23 and Super Lawyers, Illinois top 50 Women Lawyers in 2017, 2019 to 2023 rated superb by AVVO and distinguished by Martindale-Hubbell. This is sure to be an awesome conversation, so I can't wait to jump in. Welcome Lori. I'm so excited to have you join me today.

Lori Goldstein 04:08

Thank you, Leighann. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for the opportunity.

Leighann Lovely 04:11

Yeah, so why don't you start out by telling the audience a little bit about yourself. And yeah, go from there.

Lori Goldstein 04:18

Sure. So I'm an employment lawyer. I have been one for 39 years and love what I do. The first 27 years I spent at two different midsize downtown Chicago law firms representing the management side. So working with HR mostly and representing employers. In 2011, I started a solo practice representing employers as well as employees and all of my employer clients came with me so it was a good start. And then I had the the newness of representing employees, which was a little scary, but I love it. And I love doing both sides. and, it gives me great perspective, I generally get respect from the other side, whichever side I'm sitting on, because I start out by telling them, I sit in your seat. So I'm not one of these scary, you know, opponents, and I'm very practical. I'm honest with my clients, and I just tried to get to resolve disputes get to some resolution, so people can get closure, not have to be in court. I enjoy the variety of what I do different issues, different situations, as you know, in HR, you could probably write a book. And there's different laws that apply, depending on where the company is where the employees are. No two days are alike. And, and I'd love to do this. Talk about employment law topics present right on them. I'm a big networker as you are. It's great connecting people, we were connected, which I was so appreciated. And I love to meet people learn about your stories, find ways that we can connect each other and try and align through our work and services and even through personal hobbies or interests. So that's, that's my professional side. And personally, I'm a mom of two adult daughters. I'm married to an attorney, that guy I met in law school, so Oh, wow. So you've been married for how many years? It'll be 36. In September. So that's,

Leighann Lovely 06:35

I love hearing I love hearing that. Because, you know, today, it's, it's an I was just saying to my husband, it's sad to see, you know, now I'm in my 40s, or my early 40s. And it's sad to see, you know, marriages ending. And, and I celebrate the ones that, you know, have that lifelong, you know, lifelong bond, we can all hope that they'll lifelong bond, right?

Lori Goldstein 07:02

I was gonna say staying power. But that's sometimes that's what it is,

Leighann Lovely 07:07

well, staying power. I mean, I hate I'll tell you that sometimes, that's what it's about, like, just buckle down and go through the storm with each other. Because if you can make it through the storm, then you can make it through anything, right. And definitely being an entrepreneur being, you know, just getting through the grind some time is, is hard. But if you can make it through the hardest times, then. Anyways, I digress. So, you know, I wanted to have you come on, because one, I love that you work on both sides, because I believe that it gives you perspective, right? You know, as a, as a recruiter, working in the HR industry, as a salesperson that has that, that works directly with the companies and being somebody who also came from the corporate HR. I've seen the pains. And then as the recruiter, I also see the pains and the frustrations of the candidates who are experiencing the interviewing process. But I also see why on the employer side, sometimes it takes a long time to make those decisions. So when you're working on both sides of the fence, I feel like it, it can make you a more powerful force at whatever job you're doing. Because you you understand and you can have empathy. You can also be smarter and be able to figure out what the other side is doing as opposed to

Lori Goldstein 08:37

Right. Right, usually know what you know what their thinking is, or you can send your client, you know, if I were representing the employer, here's what they're probably hearing that this is why they're doing what they're doing and try and come to, and what I just said to an opposing counsel today, you know, hopefully we can get to a resolution, which means neither of our clients will be happy, because that's what a good settlement is. Everyone has to give something up. Right? And that's how you reach I mean, in every relationship.

Leighann Lovely 09:08

So, right, you give a little bit to ultimately end or get what you want in the you know, in the end, really, and that's what it's a compromise.

Lori Goldstein 09:20

Right. I think that early isn't enough to be practical.

Leighann Lovely 09:24

Every relationship isn't that's pretty much a compromise in some way. You just, you know, it's, you ultimately can deal with that so well, excellent. So why don't we dive in? Why don't we start off a little bit with what what's the question everybody's asking. So what in your line of work has changed over the last couple of years? I mean, I'm assuming that there has been quite a bit.

Lori Goldstein 09:48

Yes, many changes. I mean, you know, we all lived through, you know, this new pandemic and how it affects life and how it affects families and the work Place and work and, you know, we all have still, you know, have the effects of that. The HR people, I mean, I, you know, my employers were so overwhelmed with questions, you know about what's the right way to do things safely, legally? What do I have to do? What can I do? And the laws kept changing? And you know, and the laws were new. So we were all navigating them together. I mean, I, luckily, I have a good group of colleagues who are employment lawyers, and we would be on the phone or emailing all the time. How are you handling this? Because the laws come out? And then there's a lot of but what about this, there's a lot that's lost between, you know, between the lines, and we have to kind of make it up until they come out with regulations, or some guidelines that explain what it all means, right? So we went through that. Then there's, you know, the work life balance that companies learned about, and I like that part of it that companies, employers really, more and more understanding managers more, much more understanding that we all have lives and things happen. And we have to kind of be flexible. So there were disability accommodations that became more prevalent, the work from home, hybrid, you know, all these different structures of schedules and locations for work. We dealt with the great resignation. And as a recruiter, you know, attracting and retaining employees is huge. And I know the numbers, you know, we just got the new unemployment numbers, and they're up again, for the for the country. But there's still so many jobs that need to be filled. So I think that's good news.

Leighann Lovely 11:48

Well, and it's funny, I was just talking to somebody about the, you know, the unemployment numbers and the amount of jobs that are open. And I feel like you can't really just simply accept that as being completely accurate.

Lori Goldstein 12:04

Right?

Leighann Lovely 12:05

There's so much more, there's so many. And in the past, yes, I would have said, Okay, these are numbers. But there's so many more layers that go into those numbers right now. Because, right, well, ours are on the move, and there's retirements and there's so many things that are happening, like daily,

Lori Goldstein 12:30

right. And there's more options, because because of all that, we have more people that are now entrepreneurs, we have more more people, you know, that forming small businesses and becoming new business owners and new employers. So it's a whole new world and a lot of a lot of opportunity. And I think another thing that changed was companies focusing more on the perks, and the benefits for work life balance, to attract and retain parental leave has seemed to be one of the hot hot ones.

Leighann Lovely 13:04

Absolutely parental leave. I mean, more and more companies are going to unlimited vacation for individuals,

Lori Goldstein 13:12

right?

Leighann Lovely 13:14

I never imagined that in the past. But there, I get it like they're trying to combat for me. I mean, what, as of the first of the year, I became an entrepreneur, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh, I can take vacation anytime I want? Well, not really, because no,

Lori Goldstein 13:33

right? It's a whole world

Leighann Lovely 13:34

It's a hole, right? I'm probably not going to be taking a vacation without having my cell phone glued to my hand, you know, for the next three years. But you know, the rise of the unlimited vacation for some of the smaller organizations, or for some of the larger organizations, depending on the type of business they are. I mean, you still have the manufacturing companies that just can't afford to do something like that. But, you know, the rise of, of mental health awareness, we have the rise, and you had mentioned that the rise of parental leave, because now all of the sudden people are going wait a second, you know, the most important thing in my life, you're going to tell me that I have to be back a week later. Or, you know, just because I'm the dad doesn't mean that my life just changed, or what happens if you have a, you know, a gay couple. Does that mean like because they didn't, physically to birth? Right? Exactly. Correct. And these are all things that are now all of a sudden, like, hey, wait a second, we adopted No, none of us are neither one of us had the, you know, went through the physical. Why is it about the physical aspect that you're allowing us to recover from? It's not that's not what it was ever or supposed to be about? It's supposed to be about bonding time.

Lori Goldstein 14:55

Exactly. And I have to explain that to companies all the time when they usually they want, either will they want me to review or draft a maternity leave policy? Or they send me one that says, basically, the mother gets three months and the father gets two weeks? And I said, No, there's law. I mean, there's cases, Estee Lauder got, you know, she had to settle a big case. You can't you can't even use primary and secondary caregiver anymore, because you can't really these days, everyone's getting involved. So, right. Why? Why would we identify a primary and a secondary, because that all of a sudden becomes discrimination on? Well, who determines that? Right? It's hard to determine. And often the, it's just assumed that the female is the primary. And that's, that's discrimination.

Leighann Lovely 15:48

Correct. And it's funny that you bring that up, because my husband actually shifted his job schedule after we had our child so that he would be only working three days a week, and staying home with our daughter, you know, to have those days so that we could cut costs on childcare.

Lori Goldstein 16:06

It makes a lot of sense,

Leighann Lovely 16:08

Right? So he really became more of the primary and me as the secondary working full time. I mean, so

Lori Goldstein 16:16

That's been a great, that's been a great benefit. I was talking, excuse me to another attorney recently, a partner at a law firm. And she said, not only for female attorneys, but for women in so many industries, the whole pandemic, and this hybrid work and the fact that, you know, you can your husband can be at home or your your significant other can be at home, and at three o'clock, they can pick the kids up from school, and we can really balance because you don't all have to be somebody downtown every day.

Leighann Lovely 16:46

Right. Right.

Lori Goldstein 16:48

It's wonderful.

Leighann Lovely 16:48

Now, have you seen some companies start to make a shift back to the office?

Lori Goldstein 16:54

I have? You know, it really depends. I mean, I think the legal industry, for some reason is being more strict about it than some of the others. And then it depends on the philosophy of the people that are there. Sometimes it's hard to attract or retain the attorneys or the employees, unless you give them work from home or hybrid. That's a factor, which is bad. But I have seen it, I've seen some that are either saying we all need to be back at least three days a week, and others that are suggesting it but not requiring it. But downtown Chicago is getting crowded again. But it's still pretty, you know, never what it was right. About where you are.

Leighann Lovely 17:43

Well, and it's obviously being in the recruiting world. It's it's hit or miss depending on the the company, some companies are going yeah, we'll do this 100% hybrid, other companies are saying, Nope, we want the people back in the office. And then there are other companies out there going, we really don't care. The person wants to work remote. They have the work remote. But I have seen it more. So it like an industry. If they're, if they have a large amount of workforce that has to work on site, they are trying, right, they are trying to bring even the office people in on site as well. And I think that has to do with fairness, right? If you're, if everybody on the manufacturing floor is required to come in, because they have to be here, because that's where the work is done, let's make sure that the office people are also on site to support those individuals. Right. To me, that makes sense. Like,

Lori Goldstein 18:41

I agree, I agree.

Leighann Lovely 18:43

This is a company that has to, you know, function all on site. So let's make it fair for, you know, the people who are in the manufacturing floor to have a presence where if they need to talk to HR, they can walk in and have a conversation with HR. That doesn't mean that that company shouldn't also make accommodations for, you know, an HR person who says, Hey, can I work from home one day a week? Because XYZ, great,

Lori Goldstein 19:09

Right? But you just have to be flexible, but Right, be fair, and let people have a voice and it's good for morale. And it's also good for the collaboration and the camaraderie which I feel like a lot of the younger workers these days don't understand. They don't know what they don't know. And so they feel like they can work completely remotely, never need to go in and meet with their boss or their team or you miss so much. And I know that having worked in offices for you know, years,

Leighann Lovely 19:41

some of my best friends now are people that I met early on in my career, whom I met me and the reason I became so close with them was because I met them in person we we hung out we had lunch together we met for drinks after work and that we built that camaraderie at that time, and we learned from each other by bouncing ideas off each other after hours when I was in my young, early day career, and I feel like that really helped drive me into the next stage of my career. And, and part of me thinks, you know, for some of these young professionals, like how are they going to get that learning, because a lot of that happened after hours, a lot of that happened on lunch, you know, now, as a, as a seasoned professional, I know where to go to get that camaraderie I go to networking events, or I have friends who are business owners, so I know where to go to get that additional support. But these younger individuals, where do they go? Where, right, if they're working from home, you know, they close their computer, at the end of the day, they unplug.

Lori Goldstein 20:53

They need Mentors, they need to be observing to I mean, it's not they need to, you know, to be just observing others doing the work or doing or being on a client call or things like that, where I know, there were a lot of times, I mean, it was called FaceTime, you know, as a young attorney, you'd have to be there, you know, 10 hours a day and on Saturdays, and part of it is, you know, that's just a requirement. But if you're there, and a partner walks by and says, Hey, how would you like to come in and do this meeting? Or you can you work on this project, if you're not there, you won't get the assignments, and you won't have that power.

Leighann Lovely 21:33

Right, that and that makes sense. And it's different for, you know, industry to industry, obviously, and, and that's the other thing, you know, as a young, I wanted to be seen, I wanted to have, you know, the, the head of my department walked by and see that I was there, that I was, you know, grinding and I was, you know, doing the work, and I was putting in the hours and I was making things happen. We have a different community of young professionals coming up, and they see, and are experience experiencing the professional industry very different than we did.

Lori Goldstein 22:13

That's true. Well, they're, they're all electronic. I mean, you know, when I first started, we didn't have really, you know, we weren't on cell phones, and you really couldn't have a lot of we weren't on Zoom meetings. So you're either in person or I guess you are on your, you know, from someone's your house phone to somebody else's right.

Leighann Lovely 22:31

I didn't get my first cell phone until I was an adult. So, I mean, and I grew up with what a parents who had, you know, a car phone. I mean, it was like, installed in that was like, really? I mean, it was this big, right? It was huge. And I used to pretend, like to talk on it when I was like, pick it up. But like, half the time, it didn't work like they were you get that? Do you do do this color? Yeah. Outside the right. area outside the area? Right. I mean, but yeah, I mean, the only way you could be in front of your manager, or was to physically be in the building. And they needed to get a hold of you. You had to be at home for them to call you.

Lori Goldstein 23:20

Right. That's true. Right? Yeah, it's not the same, right?

Leighann Lovely 23:25

No, absolutely not. I mean, my first email account, I never, I mean, I checked it like twice or three times a week. Now I have 10 email accounts that I check 20 times a day.

Lori Goldstein 23:43

Right. I know. Good and bad, too. All right.

Leighann Lovely 23:46

We're bombarded constantly with electronic information.

Lori Goldstein 23:50

Right.

Leighann Lovely 23:50

So this is obviously one of the hot topics we just came out of May, which is mental health, mental health awareness month. I, you know, I'm assuming that this is something clients come to you on a regular basis about how do we handle you know, one, if somebody in our, at our company, approaches us and discloses? And also if somebody, you know, has something going on? So, and it's, I mean, this is just something that people are talking about, I'm assuming that companies come to you and say, how do we, how do we do this? How do we handle it?

Lori Goldstein 24:32

Yes, all the time. And the good thing is, usually they want to do the right thing. The companies do, but you know, they don't know what the laws are or what the requirements are, how you're supposed to handle it. Because there's issues of privacy and you know, who needs to know what and what don't you know, what are the laws the, for example, the disability discrimination laws, which people pretty much know you shouldn't discriminate or harass based on a disability. But there's accommodation requirements too. So you're supposed to reasonably accommodate somebody with a disability, if that would enable them to do the essential functions of their job. So you don't have to, you know, change major parts of it. But you know, if a different chair would be better, or somebody needs to take Friday's off for kidney dialysis or whatever, you know, accommodations there are, that's something that companies need to deal with. And they saw that a lot during the pandemic, because people were asking for accommodations from the vaccine mandates. So suddenly, even companies that hadn't dealt with this before, we're dealing with it. I also see, I mean, the mental health industry is just growing so fast. We have a lot of mental health issues, because of the pandemic affects our society. We have more telehealth now, which is great, because there's more access. I think there's more awareness and understanding and less of a stigma on for mental health. And a lot of my new employer clients during the last couple of years, our mental health practices, they're either small ones that are growing us people that are leaving a company and want to know what they can do with their non compete or non solicit and starting their own practice. They're all starting to formalize. So where they were all, all the therapists were 1099, when they probably shouldn't have been, they know that they should be making them w two. So we do employment contracts, noncompetes employee handbooks, and you know, they become employers,

Leighann Lovely 26:45

right.

Lori Goldstein 26:47

And I think I've started to see experts here in there that are providing training, either to HR professionals or within an organization so that people know how to deal with mental health issues from both sides, even as an employee, what are my rights? And I get those calls to why should I disclose this? What do I need to tell them? What you know, I'm afraid I'll get retaliated against. So it's a scary, it's a scary situation. It's not easy. It's usually sensitive. So it's hard for both sides.

Leighann Lovely 27:20

And are you finding that more people are disclosing, then? Not?

Lori Goldstein 27:29

I think. it seems that that well, it's hard to tell whether more people are disclosing, or there's just more people that have issues, you know, so there's more. So you have more disclosures, because there's now more mental health issues. But I think, I think because of the work life balance, and again, people starting to realize that this is part of life, people are fine with disclosing if somebody calls me and starts telling me about, you know, toxic workplaces and the terrible environment, and they start telling me about health issues and seeing a therapist. And there may be situations that aren't illegal at work, it could be unfair, and a bully, and not because you're of your age or your race, but it's still unhealthy. And so I tell them to hang up the phone, call your doctor, ask them what you need as an accommodation, you may need to take time off, you may need a part time schedule, do that first, your health comes first, I had a client who had a heart attack last year in her 40s because of stress from work. And you know, that shouldn't happen. Right? So people disclose, but others will ask me do I have to disclose to my new employer? And if you don't need accommodations for a disability, there's no reason to disclose it. And, you know, unless and until you need them, right? If it doesn't affect work, why does anybody need to know?

Leighann Lovely 28:59

Right? And that's interesting. But there's also, you know, I've had people who have a lifelong for instance, addiction issue, excuse me, addiction issue. And it's whether you know, that they're, they're fearful of, you know, I've been, I've been clean for, you know, four years, but throughout my life, I've had, you know, issues where high stress environments can cause that, you know, that's a risk factor where I relapse, do I disclose to my company that I have, you know, addiction problems so that if and when I do relapse, they're aware because you can't disclose after the fact. If you were to get fired because all of a sudden you relapse and don't show up to work. So well kind of like the chicken and the egg situation. What comes first, you know, if you don't disclose, and then you get fired, because all of a sudden you relapse? Well, at that point, the employer didn't know.

Lori Goldstein 30:10

Right? And you can't say, Well, you did this because I'm disabled, as opposed. Yeah, they didn't know. So there is that, that sometimes you do want to disclose, kind of, you know, to use it as leverage. I mean, just because you have a disability, or you're over 40, or you're of a certain race, you know, doesn't mean that you're going to be discriminated against on that basis. But if, you know, if there's no reason, I mean, people are afraid to disclose because it's, there's always the perception or the possibility of discrimination or harassment, once people do know, right. And I don't know why. But people seem to disclose these to their immediate Manager, which I say never to do tell HR or whoever's handling HR, your boss may never have to know, what you have, what the condition is, what the treatment is, all the boss needs to know is HR says, or the company says, here's the accommodations we're providing, and that's it.

Leighann Lovely 31:12

Right. And, you know, for me, personally, you know, I've learned throughout my, my career, and obviously, as a business owner, myself, now I the only person I would disclose to as myself, which I already know, so, but, you know, throughout my career with with somebody who had struggled with bipolar disorder, and for most of my career, it was not something that was talked about, it was not something that people were open to discussing or hearing. So my, you know, my was always, hey, keep it, keep it quiet, go and show the employer that you are fully capable of doing the job that there is, you know, that I don't need accommodations that I'm perfectly and then once I had proven that I was perfectly, you know, normal, I guess, you know, when I'm doing quotation normal, you know, if at what point I felt comfortable enough, it was a conversation that could come after of, you know, a confidant at the company, whether that be with HR, or whether that be with, you know, a an immediate manager that I had had a relationship with, you know, and say, you know, yep, I do, I do have, you know, a mental health, you know, underlying condition. And it was never that awkward, like, I'm like to sit down and tell you about something, it was usually just something that I had gained, they had gained confidence in me, and it would be something that would eventually just come out. But it was strange, because I the, the, the reactions that I had gotten over the years were always so different, although, just because it was still during a different time in which, like, people didn't know how to handle it.

Lori Goldstein 32:56

Right. And they didn't know what it all meant, either. I mean, people didn't understand what it meant. And, you know, it was just kind of like with the Oh, with HIV, you know, when that, you know, when AIDS came, and everybody was afraid, you know, we can't have people working. Well, it's not contagious in the workplace. You know, it's so you have, there's a lot of speculation and disability laws, not only prohibit discrimination based on having a disability, also a history of one and just being misperceived as having one right. So you may not be disabled, but if somebody thinks you are because you limp, you know, that's discrimination to.

Leighann Lovely 33:33

Right. Right. Right. But you know, and the only reason that I ever disclosed is because if, if I did have an episode, if I did need to, you know, and for me, it was security, because sometimes it was, all of the sudden, I would have an complete and total panic attack. And people would be like, Oh, my God, like call 911. It's like, No, I'm not having a heart attack.

Lori Goldstein 33:56

Right, right. Now, it's good that somebody knows how to handle like, in school, you know, you just want them to know, this may happen. I you know, in case of emergency,

Leighann Lovely 34:06

Correct, you know, and I remember hearing in this is just my poor mother. So my mom was, she was, she's a manager, she is a manager, I'm not going to disclose the company or whatever. But she was in the middle of an interview, she was interviewing a younger, younger person. Now she coming from knowing, obviously, I have mental health. So she is fully aware of how to deal with somebody with a disability with a mental health issue. But she's in the interview, and she tells that she had She's the manager, she got called away for a second, or was he writing his application? It doesn't matter. Anyways, all of the sudden she heard this, this individual start saying Help, help, help and she walked into the room and he was having a full on seizure. Hadn't even gotten to the point of having a conversation to disclose. My Mom immediately jumped to action was able to hold him in a comfortable position so that he wasn't hitting his ad or, you know, and, and she hired him.

Lori Goldstein 35:11

That's great.

Leighann Lovely 35:11

But you know, and he afterwards was, you know, humiliated, embarrassed, and, but also completely grateful, like, thank you so much, you know, you, you handled this so extremely well, I'm so sorry. You know, I'm so sorry. My mom's like, why are you saying sorry? Like this? It's not a not a big deal?

Lori Goldstein 35:28

They pick the right person to be the, to be the manager there?

Leighann Lovely 35:33

Right? Right. And it's great, right? She's very empathetic, very human person that understands that people are in right, you know, come in all shapes, sizes, and right seller, right, everything else.

Lori Goldstein 35:46

And I feel the same way. I mean, I have a big passion for that everybody has their strengths. And everybody pretty much can do something can work. And if you can find a good, you know, good connection between a company and an employee, and people are happy and feel productive. Life is good,

Leighann Lovely 36:04

Right? And if more companies were looked at humans as humans, and not humans as like, Oh, here's, here's the next robot coming in, that's going to do this job and then go home and write. Just when we were talking, you had mentioned something else, you know, you you'd mentioned non competes, you write non competes for. So this is another hot topic, because, you know, the Federal Trade Commission has, you know, had this on their radar of should or should they not, and because of the state of the world with all of these individuals, or all of these jobs, open noncompetes inherently stop individuals from being able to leave positions to go to competitors, or possibly higher paying jobs, or start their own business, because they may be under a non compete. Do do you think that I guess one? You know, are they? Are they going to go away? Are they? And I know Wisconsin has been a split state.

Lori Goldstein 37:14

I know California doesn't allow them. There's a right. There's a five states that just prohibit non compete.

Leighann Lovely 37:20

So Wisconsin is a split state, I know that there's a handful of them out there that will be that won't even hold them up at all. I don't know what Elena, you're in Illinois.

Lori Goldstein 37:31

Yes, Illinois, we have a we haven't had a new law or amendment, a January of 2022. That codified a lot of requirements that kind of were requirements under cases. But so we have restrictions, you have to have minimum salary, they have to give you something besides new employment or continued employment, you have to get a signing bonus or so there's a lot of hoops to jump through. But when people come to me and say, non competes aren't valid, are they? It depends, every you know, the lawyers answer, it depends. It depends when you signed it, where you signed it, what state law applies, and there's so many different factors. So, you know, I represent both sides, from the employer side, I can't imagine just doing away with non competes completely, which is what the FTC says. And the NLRB, National Labor Relations Board is starting to say similar things. I totally understand. We don't want to overly restrict people from doing what they want to do. And you have to give them something if you're gonna make them sit at home or not be able to do that same type of job. But how does a company protect, you know, their goodwill with clients and the business they've built? And some the some people feel and I think the FTC thinks that all you need is an NDA, you know, of a non non disclosure. So you can't you have to keep confidential information. You can't disclose it or use it in other places, that they think that that is enough, you know, that and some intellectual property clauses that we don't need a non compete, and we don't need something that says you can't take our clients for a year or two. I still think we need them. But I don't think you have to give them to everybody. And I think people should get something for it. So I'm torn because I'm depending on what side I'm on. I represent a lot of individuals now with non competes that seem to me that there are overbroad. I, it's hard to believe they'll get enforced, but we can never know what court it's going to go to what that judge is going to think whether the we're going to apply the law that's in the contract from the state that state or the law where the employees working. So there's so many ifs, right, I can never tell somebody, no this is not going to get unforced.

Leighann Lovely 40:01

It's, it's so interesting. And I agree with you, if we were to just wipe every single one away, that would be utter chaos.

Lori Goldstein 40:11

Yes.

Leighann Lovely 40:11

I mean, I have a feeling that there would be a whole lot of people out there that would be like, like celebrating and running around like crazy, you know, cats, living dogs, or what is that Zayn?

Lori Goldstein 40:27

Right. But it's a free for all

Leighann Lovely 40:29

Right, it's a free for all like, and I mean, I truly do it. But I also understand that if we wiped him away completely, it would it there, there is the likelihood that it would damage. A lot of companies out there, because they have spent a ton of money, making sure that you know, their clients and everybody, that all is secure. And rep. However, I'm also for the people that, and if you really dig into that, and you read it, and I'm sure you have, and you know, there are some people who have been locked in to a specific job for a very long time and have have lost the ability to make more money, or individuals who have left their industry completely and had to take massive pay cuts, right weighed out these non competes, right? And, and then, you know, a year or two later, years later, couldn't find, you know, an opportunity back where they were and it, it was a detriment to their career. And that I don't believe is right or fair.

Lori Goldstein 41:40

Right, there has to be a balance, really, I mean, I was talking again to another attorney today for a company over a noncompete that my client has. And he said to me, you know, listen, this guy's in sales, we're not trying to stop him from going somewhere and doing sales, which is what he's strong and just don't do it in this industry for a year, he can go to, you know, a health care industry and do it. So I think that, you know, for the most part, companies aren't looking to screw their former employees and try to prevent them from, you know, going to places and not getting, you know, doing things that they should be able to do. For the most part, sometimes they do, sometimes they're unreasonable. They have overbroad clauses, they don't care how much money they're going to spend to, you know, to try and enforce. And the Illinois law now says that if a company Sue's on a non compete or a non solicit and loses, they have to pay the employees attorneys fees, which was never the case, it was only one sided the other way.

Leighann Lovely 42:43

Right? Well, and I agree with that, though, I agree with that. I totally agree with that. And I also, I disagree with the fact that you shouldn't be able to kick somebody out of their industry, I, I'm against that, like if, if you've been in especially help, let's say it's medical device sales. If you have a lot of these individuals who are in medical health, device sales, or medical sales in some way, a lot of them will have a degree in biology or in science or in something. And that's why they like that type of sale. And a lot of them know all the players. And that's why they're so successful at it. So to go to that individual and say, sorry, you can't sell in this industry, go sell in something else manufacturing or HR, or there,

Lori Goldstein 43:39

But for the same reason. That's why the companies are worried and want to enforce this because these people have developed and we're worried they're gonna hurt us they could. So I think it's, I think the compromise is to have that a year that you can't solicit away the clients and the prospects that you dealt with. And that should be fine. Go anywhere you want. Competitors understand, Okay, we have to keep you away from that list for a while, but we want you right,

Leighann Lovely 44:06

I've I've had clients past clients call me when I was still under a non compete, and I've actually had to say to them, Look, I appreciate the fact that you're, you're calling me I really do. And I would love to work with you. But I am under a noncompete and I cannot work with you right now. And they understand Oh, yep, nope, I got it. I completely understand it. And it breaks my heart like, Well, I really loved working with this client, but I have to wait it out for a year or whatever that whatever that is, you know, so they do understand and and that's just, you know, that's what it is. But, again, if a client really likes working with a specific person, Ahh, I'm really split on that. Like, come on, right.

Lori Goldstein 44:57

It's a good relationship. Well, I have that client that just went through. And so a lot of the companies have non poaching clauses with their clients. And that's a lot easier to enforce than a non compete. And you know, or there's a damages clause. So if you're going to take the employee fine, but then you have to pay us something, and it usually works. And that should be enough, you shouldn't have to necessarily go after the employee to.

Leighann Lovely 45:24

And that, hey, I'm all for that, like, especially in some of these, like really specific industries, I get it like, and I get the I got the confidentiality, the nondisclosure, all of that you have trade secrets that you're protecting, I get that if this employee is going to go directly or competitor and try to sell your trade secrets go after that person, because that's not right.

Lori Goldstein 45:46

Right?

Leighann Lovely 45:47

I completely understand that. And if you want to work out a deal with, you know, your competitors, and say, Hey, you can hire my employee, but that employee cannot take our clients. And if they do, you're gonna, you're gonna be the one that pays us.

Lori Goldstein 46:02

Right?

Leighann Lovely 46:02

But don't stop the employee from thriving for their family, because now you're damaging the people, and the people are the ones who are buying from you.

Lori Goldstein 46:12

Right? That's true. That's a good point. What's your experience from recruiting for employers that know that this candidate has a non compete agreement? And you know, I've been through those situations where a lawyer takes a look, and the company's lawyer says, We think this is okay, we're not worried about it. But a lot of them won't, they just won't touch that candidate, because they don't want to get trouble.

Leighann Lovely 46:36

It depends on each situation. You know, I've had some, some say, Yeah, I don't know that we can get past that. I've had others say, Yep, I think we can work with this will work within the constraints. And, you know, sometimes, even if it's a large company that, you know, the company's in house attorney will meet with that employee and go over the guidelines of, you know, we'll go to bat for you bla bla bla bla bla, providing that you follow these rules, because what I have found is that companies want to do the right thing. And in the majority of the I don't know that I've ever worked with a company that's that blatantly gone out of their way to do sneaky stuff. In fact, if I found out that they were doing that, I would not want to work with them. Right. I see him here. Right. So companies, I think, you know, inherently want to do the right thing and stay within the lines. So I've even worked with companies who will have their in house attorney meet with that, you know, employee, do you understand that you're not allowed to do these things? Yes. Great. We'll take you on, you need to follow your non compete until its end. You know, if if anything were to accidentally happen, we will go to bat for you, blah, blah, blah. But if you color outside of these lines, you're on your own.

Lori Goldstein 47:54

Right. Fair

Leighann Lovely 47:56

Yeah, and, you know, for the most part, unless, and I don't think I've ever had any company say absolutely not. I've had some companies go this might this might be a deal breaker. And I think that ultimately, the candidate, just it wasn't the right fit. And that, but that usually gets into really high level.

Lori Goldstein 48:18

Right,

Leighann Lovely 48:18

Like, high level officers.

Lori Goldstein 48:21

Yeah, I agree. I've had some where the new employer pays the old employer, basically to take the employee, they buy him out of the contract, but they don't do that for most employees.

Leighann Lovely 48:33

Now, that's you're talking about, like the big the big directors, the the very high up individuals or companies. And I'm assuming that that individual also has a contract that they're going to stay at the company for a certain period of time as well.

Lori Goldstein 48:48

Right. Right, right. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 48:51

Yeah, yeah. We're not going to buy you out if you only come here for six months.

Lori Goldstein 48:54

Right? Right. Exactly.

Leighann Lovely 48:57

Yep. Well, we are coming to time, I could sit here and talk to you forever. But we are coming to time. And I do have a question of the season that I would like to ask, you know, what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role, if you could.

Lori Goldstein 49:17

So, I mean, my job is a solo law practice employment law, which as I said, I'd love I wouldn't change a thing. For the most part, I probably need to delegate more. There are tasks, you know, that I give to a bookkeeper, but I could probably give more to her and maybe bite the bullet and hire a virtual assistant. So, time management is something I would change about my job. But, you know, I love that I talk to clients directly, and they get to talk to me and I'm not, you know, having them, somebody else feel the calls. But it's, you know, it does take time. And in terms of changing the practices As the other employment attorneys have, I wish some were more practical resolution oriented, more objective and, you know, focused on the client's best interest cost sensitive and most error, and that generally leads to better relationships and negotiations and getting to closure. But some of them, you know, some attorneys have either, you know, been raised differently, they're at firms that would rather litigate than settle. And whether you have principles. And so you know, then they play the litigation game or the game where and, you know, it would be so much nicer to really just be practical. Realize, I always say this to the other attorney, our clients hire us because they can't resolve this. So we need to be objective and neutral, you know, advocate for our clients, but their work, they're relying on us to resolve this. So let's be nice to each other. Let's be cordial. So that's, that's a good experience. And a lot of my colleagues, friends I've met through networking end up being somebody I'm ending up negotiating a severance agreement with or things like that. And, again, we are representing our clients and we advocate but I know I have a good person on the other side, who was a good lawyer, and you know, we're going to come to a deal.

Leighann Lovely 51:24

Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Lori Goldstein 51:30

So they could call me at 847-624-6640. They could reach me on my website, which is Lori Goldstein law.com, and my email address is lori that a that goldstein@gmail.com.

Leighann Lovely 51:51

Excellent. Lori, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been an awesome conversation. I think we've covered some some great content or great topics. So again, thank you so much.

Lori Goldstein 52:01

Thank you. Thank you. It was a wonderful engaging conversation.

Leighann Lovely 52:05

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

companies, work, employer, non compete, employee, disclose, clients, law, industry, lori, years, hr, individuals, attorney, disability, representing, day, great, illinois, starting

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William Deck is a Success Mindset Coach, Keynote Speaker and so much more, by my account and conversation this is the person that you want to have in your circle. William takes real-world experience and understanding and helps people and businesses transform the way they see, feel, and understand the world. As he says in this interview and bio “People and businesses don’t need motivation, they need transformation” This is a conversation you will not want to miss!

Leighann Lovely 00:20

William Deck 02:44

I am too I know we recently had a meeting and I had amazing conversation. And I'm looking forward to a whole lot more today. And so ready to jump in?

Leighann Lovely 02:54

Yeah. So why don't you start off by telling me and the audience a little bit about your background and yourself?

William Deck 03:01

Sure, sure. So once again, my name is William deck, and I'm the founder and CEO of mind business LLC. And we're a coaching and consulting firm that's really focused in on mental fitness education. And what that really means is that we help organizations and the individuals they're in to remove their self sabotage barriers from a mental and emotional level. Because the keys to success are not visible. They're invisible principles and ideas and belief systems that manifest in our behaviors and disciplines that cause these good outcomes to happen. And we help organizations and once again, those people in the in the team members to actually see where they're getting in their own way, and how they can get out of their own way. Because ultimately, we have to make good decisions with clarity in order to be able to make a transformational change. We can't just Helter Skelter, you know, kind of find our way there just by floating around in that atmosphere. It's about being intentional. And that's what we're really trying to help organizations see. And then of course, do the work.

Leighann Lovely 03:58

And that's amazing, because I can identify with that. Being somebody who's, you know, had a long journey to where I am, I've definitely noticed that the people that I surround myself with and the mindset, you know, personally, that over the years has changed. I can identify points in my life in which it wasn't, it's easy to point blame, but it wasn't anybody else that was in my way it was it was me. So I can definitely, I can definitely see how your work can help individuals and organizations drastically move forward. If you put the work in, so, so why don't you you know, again, and I've seen it too, you know, many people walk around, you know, unsure of how to change their life and to really get unstuck. So, tell me about how you work with people and companies to do that good work.

William Deck 05:02

Most definitely. So our one on one coaching, philosophy definitely kind of is intertwined in the work that we do with organizations because the mental principles and once again are the same. So when I say mental principles, what I'm saying is that they're universal laws, that just like gravity in the physical realm apply to the mental realm. So for example, there's a lot of correspondence the sense that any external outcome or, or situation is connected to an inner situation and our reality, meaning what we feel and think and believe on the inside, tends to manifest around us all the time, right? And so one could say, Well, I'm not sure if that's true, but no one questions gravity, it works, because it works in these universal law that our ancestors over 1000s of years have come to understand all around the world. When I say universal, it means it applies just like it does, here in Wisconsin, and Milwaukee, as it does in changing China or somewhere else, right? It works because it works. And so when it works. So when we work and do engagements with organizations, what we want to do is not try to recreate the wheel, there are certain mental, as well as physical laws, that are really important to understand the set of foundation, so that when we understand how the baseline or how the the scaffolding is put together, then it's easier to see some of the more mundane details, if we understand that if we speak negative words, for example, that we're going to have negative emotions. And those negative emotions tend to manifest negative outcomes, whether they're specific or in specific, they attract the same energy or that light energy. And so if we're having negative conversations internally about the organization all the time and what doesn't work and what we don't like, we can only expect to have more negative outcomes. Just the same if you're an individual, if you're talking bad about yourself talking about about your situation, talking only about the negative aspects of your family history as opposed the positives, right? Then it's very hard to make a positive or transformational change. I mean, they were born in the complete opposite direction, right transformation, something new, if we're talking and speaking from the old belief system, the old ideas, the negative ideas. And so we have to begin to understand and to see, you know, with our single eye of the Spirit, if you will, as well, our physical eyes, the mental and emotional, you know, psychological aspects of how we are speaking life into our situation, and speaking, a newness, a creative aspect that can bring new outcomes into our lives, which is love, which is positivity. Or if we're speaking, that negativity that only sees a certain a certain number of outcomes are possible outcomes, because this is what we experienced in the past. So we can expect, quote, unquote, to express these things. Again, it didn't work out last time I tried. So why would it work? Now, all those kinds of ways of thinking and feeling simply tells ourselves with words and no words, I don't deserve it. And most of the time, when we find the root cause of what's holding us back is because deep down, we don't believe that we deserve it. We don't believe that we deserve the new outcome, the higher level of financial security, the better relationship, because our own experiences have told us that we don't. And we have interrupted that pattern of thinking and feeling. And until we interrupt those those stuck, negative Denslow emotions, we'll never be able to get into the newness of life. That is what living this experience is all about. It's about constantly having an opportunity to get better, to see better to experience better to prove to yourself that there is no limit to what you deserve what you can have, right? Because it's not about just like holding something in your hand. It is about having an idea and manifesting into the real world. And that's what we want organizations to do. We just put the corporate speak around it, help them to learn the principles, and ultimately help them to begin to build the behaviors that will automatically produce the outcomes that they want. And we do the same thing with one on one coaching, because we are where we habitually do. Now when we say and honestly not even necessarily what we think to a degree, because we can be thinking negatively at first, but then begin to change our behaviors and our behaviors will pull us out of it. But if we only think and not take action, then ultimately we're not going to get to where we want to get so getting deep down into what those root causes. And the whys behind all of that, that we just discuss is important so that we can just put a program around here the challenges so we know exactly what we want to attack from day one. And we try to keep it simple. We don't try to make it difficult is simple and straightforward. These are your roadblocks, we've identified them together. Let's attack those and and get those out of your head in your heart and replace those negative belief systems with positive belief systems, actions behaviors, and once you do that, the subconscious mind will take over and it's automatic says, as opposed to automatic self sabotage, failure and all the other things that you don't want. That's how we do it.

Leighann Lovely 10:06

That's and that's amazing. Because, you know, and I suppose you know, simple like that and things that popped in my head, you know, in some of these are going to be really bad examples, so forgive me, but things that popped in my head like my husband and I play Yahtzee all the time. Like we're obsessed with playing Yahtzee. And I always think to myself, like, oh, today, I'm going to win Yahtzee because I had a really good day. And I have positive energy going into these dice. Which is kind of ridiculous. Because if you think about it, you know, Yahtzee is a game of chance, like and a little bit of skill, like which dice do I keep? Which dice do I don't write, but I always think to myself, today was an awesome day. So I have positive energy going into this game. Which is true. It's kind of goofy. But I always think like, yep, today, I'm gonna win, because today was a really great momentum day. So I'm gonna win. And I'm like, Yeah, I should go to the, you know, Potawatomi? Or did the casino Yeah, I'm not a gambler. Like, you know, not too much of an Avigail. But, you know, you get into this mindset, like, Hey, today was I had such great positive momentum, that nothing can bring me down. But on the flip side of that, I have a really rough day, and I'm like, I'm not gonna win. I can't do you know, and it's hard to get out of that rut. So if if, if you can create that automatic, like you were talking about that automatic, subconscious mindset, where you're pouring, you know, that positive momentum into things on a regular basis, think about how much more powerful you can be in any situation. But it's hard. It's hard to when you when you're just feel like you're being beaten down over and over. It's definitely tough to get out of that rut. Especially if and again, I suppose it some people, I don't suppose some people grow up in certain ways. So it is hard to look at the world with the glass half full and hard to get into the mindset that good things are going to happen if I put the work in, because they just grew up with the idea that good things don't happen to people like me, or people like, so it's hard to switch that. It really is. Yeah, so I got it. And so working with somebody like you to really change your view almost on the world, your view on yourself, and then say, Hey, I'm valuable in some way, whether no matter what it is, I'm I give value to somebody in some way. And working just on that small piece at a time. And knowing that, you know, it kind of goes back to what is that movie? I'm thinking I'm trying to think of the movie that's a Christmas movie where, you know, he wishes he was never born. And then the reality of seeing what would happen if you didn't exist in the lives Christmas story, not a Christmas story. Oh my God, how can I not think of the name of this movie?

William Deck 13:34

The one with Scrooge. No, he goes back in okay.

Leighann Lovely 13:37

No, it's not what Scrooge it's oh my god, right now my audience is like screaming at me going How do you not know the name of this movie. But it's always a mess around. Like if you remove one person from the lives of other people as if they never were born. The impact the ripple effect, because even the simple act of opening a door for somebody could be making their day you know, the positivity that you don't know that you spread. However, that's also the same thing for the negativity that you can spread. And if everybody kind of had that mindset of doing a little bit more positive, those those things can can change the world. And so if anyways, I digress. No. So and here's, here's another thing, the vision board, you know, you hear people talk about, oh, I have a vision board. And the idea behind that is that you are deserving of anything that you put on that vision board, if you truly want to get it. Then you need to actively seek out ways to switch your mindset in order to and if you're looking at those things all the time. And you're going about it in a way that's positive and an eye I'm a believer of that, right? Like if you are doing things in a positive and actively, but it's not just simple like, Oh, I'm just going to work three times how harder and I'm going to bulldoze my way through it. It's not the same as actually flipping that and you know better flipping that switch to say, Okay, I am going to do this better buy healthier, I'm going to do this. You know,

William Deck 15:33

I know exactly what you're saying

Leighann Lovely 15:34

And I'm just not finding the right words to say it's

William Deck 15:37

just taking a approach of self love, and acceptance. A lot of times we feel like, we are doing a good job taking care of ourselves and this and that, they will look into the details in the minutia. Whether it's constantly rushing, whether it's constantly being under anxiety, because we've been under a cloud of anxiety and overwhelmed for many, many years, which Psychological Science call that toxic stress overload. A lot of times those kinds of emotional states are normal, meaning that we're never really, truly settled would never really feel like we were doing them out that we have enough that we are enough, it's always the idea that there is a, a, a hole in our bucket. So it's not about it being half full or half empty, is that it's constantly being depleted is constantly draining. So people around you experiences always have to continuously pump you up, pump you up, pump you up, fill up your cup, fill up your cup, but your cup keeps on leaking, or keeps on becoming depleted, which means not enough, right? Because that is your state of mind. And so no one can I help you with it, we have to learn even though it's very difficult, let me make a quick statement. I'm not saying that this is easy. But we have to get to a place in our lives that we feel okay, in our own skin, doing nothing on a Friday night. The reason why I give that example is because to me on Friday nights for many years for like I had to go out and hang out and do things and go places. Because I wouldn't settle with where I was in my life. I was still in college, and it was in my college years. And I was on the eighth year playing when I started off with a four year plan and things that went wrong. They were outside of my control, but I felt like a victim. And I could not fulfill on a Friday night because I wasn't okay. When I begin to realize that, fundamentally, then I begin to realize, okay, so my behaviors like, you know, I would, you know, get a whole pizza and six pack of beer and, you know, consuming in one night by myself. And it's like, okay, Homer Actually, yes, I used to eat alive. But I'm not anymore. Why am I like eating this much food when like my Isaiah, that's enough, and I keep on eating. That was a sign of a lack of self love. That was self deprecation. That was, you know, in some ways, some deep part of myself was punishing myself. Because, once again, if you don't feel like you're okay, if you're good enough, most people also feel like they need to be punished in some way. So they means self sabotage, right? I need to be in a situation to where I'm struggling, striving and, you know, putting myself second place and someone else, physically or psychologically, or you know, work, you know, taking crap from a boss, when it's not just constructive criticism is actually you know, borderline abusive, all these different things. They just manifest and put people in this in this secondary position in their own lives, right, because they don't believe that they deserve the best or they're afraid of success. And so I have to do something to keep myself from being out there from speaking up for myself, because if I do that, then people won't be in agreement with me. But once again, it goes back to the secondary position. Because if you are not first in your life, other people will find ways consciously or subconsciously put themselves first. If you don't have your own plan, if you don't have your own vision, someone will give you their their plan and their vision and say, God help, you know, do this for me. None of those things are bad. But if you stay there, you will slowly lose respect for yourself. And ultimately, when we go from the left side of living, to the fear side of living, we cut ourselves off from opportunities on the fear side and self sabotage. And we keep on pulling ourselves down because we are the crabs in the bucket that are pulling us down. Because it's our bucket, it's our mind. But if we're on the love side, then we are free. We are evil, sorry, 2345 10 miles high in the sky, seeing hundreds of miles in all directions. And I choose where I go. I make decisions, I speak affirmations I take I create new habits and behaviors that are not easy at the beginning, when I choose to go through when it hurts and when it doesn't feel good. And I'm ready to you know, lose my breakfast at yoga or some kind of training session, but I choose to show up the next day or that or the next week. That's what self love was all about pushing through the challenging times at the beginning, knowing that there's something better on the other side Knowing that the vision that I have is real, it is alive and it lives to Me. And there's no second place, there's no way that I can let this go because it is my vision, I don't manifest it, it will never happen, and taking full responsibility for it. So love, it's not just being fluffy, loves being tough, it's having courage. It's feeling the pain, feeling of fear and continuing to go on. And of course, fears the exact opposite is pushing my opportunities away. It's making excuses and feeling sorry for myself. And none of those things play in the real world. The reality is, it's completely up to you. And that's what love teaches us. But it but when we have to relearn them, because we tend to lose that over time, because the world tells us put other people first put other things first, stay on the sidelines, don't make too much noise. But then those that actually do those things, are the ones that are more successful that Elon Musk and all the other successful people say, break the rules, find your own way, trust your intuition. So we have to really learn a lot of things. But it is so worth it.

Leighann Lovely 21:00

And it's funny, because when I hear you talk, and I can I can hear other people's reaction initially of well, doesn't that sound selfish? Putting yourself first all the time? And, and? And I and I? Yes. I mean, yes, absolutely. But what I have learned through my own personal journey is that when I was putting everybody else first I was completely ignoring my own needs my own. And I was allowing myself to live in a place of complete unhealthiness. And when you put yourself first and become completely healthy, it becomes easy to serve those around you. And it becomes fun, to be able to keep yourself healthy. And also love and serve those around you with kindness. And but you're right, it goes back to the saying of put your own mask on first. Otherwise, you're nothing to anybody else. Imagine then you answer my question, I was gonna say am I right in that?

William Deck 22:13

So yes, so there is. So what I've had to learn that there's a difference between selfish and selfish. When someone is looking for butterflies in fear, the poverty mindset, and I'm not talking about finances first, because that is the end outcome I'm talking about. Not enough, can't do it. Not enough time, I'm too busy. What I realized those are the selfish people. Because what they don't understand is that every time they are suppressing their own greatness and opportunity to grow, then they are masking the light that they were here to to be to become those who who are selfing and saying, if I'm not okay, I can't be abused to anybody else are saying that because I care about my family, my loved ones, the clients that I serve, I have to be mentally, emotionally, physically psychologically fit, so that I can go out there and produce the output or the light or the clarity, wisdom and knowledge that flows from within me my experiences my intuition, everything else to go out there and do the very best that I can for this world because I understand that I want to leave this world one day into every single virtue every every speck of light everything that I had to bring to the table I did dug deep within the old world of myself and brought it out that's someone who I believe who actually loves and cares people much more so than though the thing I'm going to cover my own lighter. I don't have a lighter I'm not alive, I can't do it. Those are the selfish ones because they don't see their connectedness to the bigger picture Those that do are saying let me make sure that I'm fortified so that I can always do and be who I need to be just like it says in every single scripture right the set the different definitions of you know God if you will with this I am with this for definition or otherwise are there other words or names they all go back to the idea that I am whatever you need me to be our I am whatever I need to be, which means that we always have more within us but only those who have the courage to dare to go into their own Atlantis within themselves and find all the gold and all the solutions desk although the stories about you as a human being right anytime there's a dragon at the gate or dragon you know, you know protecting this gold in this big castle and all that stuff. That Dragon that's covering the goal is the limitations within yourself because the gold is within your own castle. It's not somebody else's Castle is yours. But but that's the unlimited potential. That we are not that we have that we are and to and to have the courage to start that journey and to keep on going when is scary and when you're afraid and when No one supporting you and thinking that you're crazy. Those are the ones who are not just quote unquote selfish, but those are the ones that are. Or they have decided that I am the one in my life and have the ability to impact other people's lives in a way that I can't even describe it. It is beyond my comprehension. But I'm going to go after that pie in the sky idea and belief and vision, because there's something greater beyond what I can see. And everyone else and have to be honest, so your your listeners are going to get shocked again, and everyone else is just jacking around to just be living life, going to work coming home not being satisfied, being you know, repressing 1000, different ways, mentally, emotionally, vision for something that you want to do, that you just have given up on or about to give up on, and not showing your children a better version of yourself, year after year after year, that selfish is held, you have more greatness in you than you could ever imagine. And to not even touch it or to tap into it, that is much more worse. So selfing is excellent. selfing is what great people do. And selfish is what most people are doing because they don't see the big picture. So I want to explain that give some context. But most people are just sitting around waiting to die. And we can't allow that to happen to us. All of our all of that potential that lives within you, as an individual, every listener here could go to the grave one day, all these different ideas for businesses and, and ways to be a better parent and all of a sudden, that and you're afraid for any reason to do it. And you choose not to do it over and over again. It's not just impacting you, it could impact an entire community and entire city. That's how powerful we are. And for a lot of us to change the world. But what we're just sort of like gifts.

Leighann Lovely 26:47

Well, and that goes back to, you know, the whole, you know, concept of people who don't realize the impact they have on other people simply by being you know, who you are, who you are, by being kind by making, you know, extra times each day to reach out to some. But again, this comes back to fear. It all and you had mentioned that it all comes back to fear by asking somebody, can I open this door for you? Well, why wouldn't you ask somebody that? Oh, I don't want to get involved. I don't want to talk to this. You know what if I talk to him in the LM, a lot of what we don't do, comes back to fear of being rejected, or of being looked at cross-eyed or it comes back to what happens if I am not accepted? And trust me, I've experienced that. What if I get on this stage? And everybody laughs at me? What if I get on that stage? And everybody claps and says, Thank you for telling me that story. Or thank you for what you do. What if I, you know, what, whatever it might be. We as humans have a tendency to default to the negative versus the positive. And it's, it's difficult to get past the fear of the what ifs. Well, what if i What if that happens? What if this happens? For some reason, there came a point in my life, and I think it comes with age, right? Where all of the sudden, I just was like, what if? Who cares? Like, who cares? What if somebody doesn't like me, okay, they don't have to. Not everybody in the world has to like who I am. Not everybody in the world has to accept me. But I need to accept me. I need to be able to look in the mirror and be proud of what I see. And for and for that I needed to say some uncomfortable things about myself I II, I went and told the world I have bipolar disorder. There are people out there who are wildly, you know, uncomfortable with that. But you know what, I stepped into myself fully, because all of a sudden, I was accepted by a huge number of people in my community, who actually said thank you. Thank you for being so open and honest with who you were. And I'll tell you, when I did that for myself. I became so much more comfortable in my own skin. And it empowered me. It made me feel amazing to be able to just be who I am fully and not be ashamed of something that I was born with. I've spoken to other people who have told their story that were much more difficult. I'll just say that you tied to much more traumatizing things in their past that I cannot Imagine what they felt. I've seen, you know, and it's it's so amazing when people finally step into their whole selves and do things that you know, others stand up and go, well, thank you. And there are others who will say, Well, I don't ever want to talk with that person again. She's weird or She's strange. Well, then fine. Go find your people. But I'm going to clap for that person. Because here's the thing. Not everybody likes everybody. Not everybody jives with everybody. Not everybody meshes well, but everybody has somebody, we all have people, somewhere. And in order for us to all lift each other up, we all need to find those people, right? Because everybody has somebody. And if we get past the fear and realize that we can do better, it wouldn't be that much easier. We just have to be willing to take that first leap. Again, I digress and to some random thought by Leanne.

William Deck 31:05

No, but I mean, you're totally right. I think Maya Angelou is one of the ones that said it best is that our biggest fear is that we are not inadequate. Our biggest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. And, of course, she said more. But most of us have a much stronger fear of success, like what if this actually works. And I can scale this business or I begin to have a successful relationship, but I've never seen with a stable person, you know, what will happen once I get there, and do I have what it takes to handle it and to manage it, and to grow it or to be it a lot of people are more or more people fear that than the fear of quote unquote, failure, good, all of us have had quote unquote, failures in whatever capacity, whatever we believe that to be. So that's not necessarily scared, because it's not foreign, the foreign ideas and aspects of what scares us the most. So being wildly successful and at peace, and not having any issues and drama and having to worry about paying bills for a good number of the population that is horrified because what they have experienced is the exact opposite. It doesn't mean this, that's what they want. But what they do is communicate that with their emotions, and their self sabotaging and fearful and overwhelming thoughts that put them back in that space. And when I talked about the beginning, being that low, heavy denseness that you feel, as a cost, excuse me, your constant cloud around you all the time. Most of us feel that cloud, we see that cloud, experienced experientially by what happens in our lives, and it keeps us down. And it keeps us feeling that we're not enough. And although the things that I've already mentioned, that is and I know that for a fact, because that's where I was for many years, I know what it feels like to not have a clear vision for the future. And to just feel like you're wandering and doing your best just to get out of bed and feel encouraged every single day. I know what it feels like to be depressed because I was after my stepdad got sick and had to handle a whole lot of stuff that I wasn't ready to. Just because as an oldest boy, I know what it feels like to have a one vision and idea. And then all of a sudden life, you feel like life is blown up on you. And all of a sudden, you got to just start from scratch, like everything that you work for, quote, unquote. But this was my own story. I had lost and I lost people and lost friendship, I didn't lose anything. I was simply shedding that which was movable. So that which was immovable would remain in the end. And it talks about spiritual texts, including the Bible talks about the idea that every that life has periods or seasons, where everything is shaken just like sediments on everything, the solid. What is left is the foundation just like when you're looking for gold. You sift through a whole lot of dirt and this net, Moon sifted through what is remaining is that pure gold, right? And so it even talks about you know that when you go through fire fiery situations, the reason why you go through them is that you can come out as pure gold because you purify gold and silver and lead and things like that by heating it up. So that everything that is not the pyramidal, or element is burned away, basically. And that's exactly what happened. And it was very, very painful. What I did also learn I can tell everyone from experience, no matter what you're going through, no matter how hard it seems, no matter how hard it seems, is that when you go through the fire, you will not come out on the inside burned up like a little piece of charcoal you will definitely be that purified goal of psychologically physically emotionally, you know, steadfast and immovable able to do more than you ever thought you could do because you have grown your capacity. And that's what challenging times are for they don't come to stay they come to pass. That is not your life. You should not always because I've heard things especially in spiritual community about hey, you know, if you're going into the storm out of storm and through a storm, I don't believe in that. I believe that we have an opportunity each and every day A to decide how we feel how we think, and overall get to a place that over time, we'll have extended periods of time, we have extended periods of time of peace and prosperity, and focus, and clarity and passion. We don't have to just sit here and go through stuff. And a lot of people believe that, and I did too. But I kept on manifesting what I believe. So I want to also just with a quick tidbit in there, you don't have to stay in tough times, tough times come to pass. And we should be living in abundant overflow, much more than we're living in struggle and striving and hustling, grinding, they just wear us down to wear us out. The Hustle grind mentality for me, and I realized so many others, it just is not a real thing is just negative programming that causes us to burn ourselves out. Because most people don't know how to go hard and fast and not wear out. So it's not really meant for most people, there are a few people who have enough discipline, they can go hard and fast doing of self care, to not burn out quickly when you go in hard all the time. But I wouldn't recommend it. So

Leighann Lovely 36:08

you made a really valid point, there are seasons of life. You know, we and I've talked with this about somebody else on my podcast that we you know, we we go through different periods of times that we may have, you know, and again, this kind of you just brought a whole bunch of conversations that I've had with other people together where, you know, changing, you know, Jamar Jones has a book, change your circle, change your life, that also goes along with the seasons of life where, you know, there's going to be times where you have different people in your life where it may be time to change that circle. Depending on where you are in your life, you may be in a in a state of complete and total distress, depression, because of a situation that you've gone through because of a mental health disorder, because of addictions. But from my experience, you can only stay at the bottom so long, right? I don't know anybody that I've known, you know, I don't know anybody that doesn't eventually come up from that, you know, I've I've hit bottom, I have had friends, I've known others, you eventually will dig your way up. But it does have a lot to do with you as a person whom you choose to have in your circle. And that's a lot of it has to do with mindset on how quickly you will bounce back on how quickly you are able to bounce back on the situation, of course. But there is always a light at the end of the tunnel. It's a matter of whether or not you choose to follow it quickly. Or you choose to stay where you are for a longer period of time. But it is a choice. And speaking from somebody who has been there a couple of times in my life from different situations. I mean, it is it is but once you've been there, I'll tell you, I don't ever want to go back there. And I have worked very hard on self care on mental health awareness to make sure that I don't ever find myself back at that rock bottom situation. And a lot of that has to do with checking my mood on a regular basis. Now I'm speaking from somebody who's got a you know, lifelong mental health situate, you know, diagnosis, checking my mental health, my husband making sure you know, he everyone's about you seem down, you seem really really excitable, and I'm like, oh, we'll do much. You know, it's a matter of making sure that on a daily basis, that I am checking to make sure that I am mentally, physically, you know, doing everything I need to do to stay healthy all the time. And for a while it was changing the people that I chose to have in my life because they were unhealthy. So I mean, there's so much that goes into and it's not easy. Everything you know that that you've spoken about, and I don't know the depth. And here's my next question before I go on and on. You know, you work with organizations and companies. What do you think is one of the biggest challenges when it comes to you know, going into an organization and you know, helping them

William Deck 39:47

I will say the biggest barrier because working with people of course, is unresolved childhood trauma. Whether it's C suite all the way up and down doesn't matter the age when you get to the the The depths of a lot of times people are operating from their greatest fears and anxieties, as opposed to the greatest in their most creative inspirations, meaning certain people have certain belief systems or ideas on how things should be done or doing it the way that it always been done or whatever else that may be that belief that I did. Because it's comfortable for them, it's not challenging them to have to grow personally. It's not, in some way, from their perspective, challenging their position within the organization, or decision that they made that they got credit for five years ago, but you know, that time is coming on and the world has changed. And we need to do new stuff to get or try new things to get different results. A perfect example is from the organizational side, I was I just had a two part workshop, and consulting session with a C suite, or C leadership team to have a very, very large nonprofit, they do funds, you know, millions and millions of dollars. And these are well known folks. When I got into the session, we begin to talk about things when we have to do this in education and talking about some some different things that we need to discuss and go through, will begin to kind of begin to ask some creative questions like how would you show up to work differently if you had no fear? You know, how would you know how would your work or your focus, or your ideas shift? If you had no fear? Like, let's just take fear off the table. And think from creative inspiration only. And it was interesting to see the entire group that eyes lit up, they got excited, there was a lot of laughing, a lot of joking, and I heard different ideas or statements like hey, like, we asked her to the board, but like what's keeping us from actually going and trying X, Y and Z? Like, you know, how would it hurt? Or what would it hurt if we chose to stop doing this and doing more of that? And one question, I thought that I pose is, you all are known in the community for doing XYZ? What if you decided to shift your your your position in the marketplace? We are innovation firm first, that does XYZ, because we champion innovation, trying new things? And how can we then transfer those ideas to turn those into action steps and incentives for our team members to fail fast try new things, right, like what we do is within a certain lane, currently, but it could be so much more. And we don't we'll never know, if we don't get us out of our comfort zone. So the childhood traumas aspect is huge, because it keeps people feel with inside their own paradigm, you would assume if they're in the C suite, like not just the most creative, but like the most open. But sometimes it's true sometimes it's not true depends on the position, the organization human. But getting past that is huge. So at the beginning of my sessions, including that session, I have everyone put on a masquerade ball mask and said today, we're going to take off the corporate and social mass that we put on every single morning, based on what we believe the world needs us to be what I want you to come forth as who you truly are what you truly want. If you had to your way if you couldn't fail, if no one's going to judge you, let's rethink who we are. If that's not clear, because for a lot of people, isn't it? Unless rethink how we interact in the world the value that we provide, what could we be doing that could be pushing the envelope to change the future for yourself and the organization. And when people really begin and I would say this, it took me five minutes, 510 minutes for people to really begin to think through it. And there was silence for the first five or 10 minutes. But after that, the creativity that came out and just the spark in those individuals eyes was completely different. Because they were living in a child come forward because we are all children on the inside. The adult bodies don't mean that we are adults and adulting sucks and it's hard. It's unfair. And it's no fun. And I told them that too. And everybody started laughing and nodding their head, like adulting sucks. This is a program we don't have to live by that adulting is too hard is too restrictive. It says let your true self the inner child die. You know, sacrifice yourself. Everyone has to be a sacrificial lamb because that's what the world needs. So untrue. Once again, I go back to the same thing when you talk to successful people. They don't think that way. They're self deprecation. That's ignorance. That's blindness. Because what about you? It's an important question is what about you? So now that you're an adult, you just pay the bills and you don't get anything? Your kids get everything your husband, your wife, your your community, you just serve, serve, serve and dodge a shirt with a string being I don't get that right. That sounds dumb. What about you? And if you are not okay, you are never going to be your best, especially those with children listening to this you know, if you're stressed out and overwhelmed. You're not the best parent you can be. You're not thinking creatively, you're frustrated and making excuses you're blaming secretly you Let's be honest, you are secretly blaming your children for your issues, or some of them, right or your lack of freedom. And you can't do this and stop it. That is the way that we are taught to be programmed so that we can self destruct. And that manifest our greatness. But we have to be strong internally and next time. And we have to be free mentally and emotionally, to think our best thoughts and to do our best work, even if it's just making the best pancakes first thing in the morning on a Saturday morning for yourself, and or your family or whatever else. Like, that's what life is all about. But you have to be able to slow down enough to be able to see those things, and not be so bogged down with adults eating, and living life and paying bills and meeting expectations of other people. All of that is just too much, it's too heavy. We don't have to live that way. But we make a choice. So we can't blame the world. We can only blame ourselves because we are the captain of our ship. And the master of ourselves, right? I'm sorry, the captain of our feet and the masters of our souls, it is up to us and no one knows. And if you ever put the finger on the outside, just remember, it's a trick. point finger back at yourself in every situation. And you will see an entirely different paradigm of life that will give you the answers that you're seeking. But Don't point that finger on the outside, or you are you've been Duke is going to be another day, another week, another month, another year of blindness, for lack of clarity, lack of sight, the vision, the plan, because we're always looking on the outside for our solutions and the problems. But the problem is us and the solution is within us and all around us. And as soon as we tap into that, and begin to see with the inner eye and the externalize of life for what it truly is not what we want it to be because we didn't get this grown up, no one cares what you didn't get. Life doesn't care what you didn't get. You manifest what you believe, as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he. So as long as you're a victim, as long as you're feeling down and low and someone else did something, you're going to manifest that. But I mentioned at the beginning the law of correspondence, every external reality has an internal reality, or belief or idea that is deeply rooted within you. And if you want to shift what's happening on the outside, you have to ship what's going on within even if the externals don't affirm this change of vision, internal vision, that's where everything begins. That is the only way to turn this entire, you know, warship or boat of your life is making turns early, not when you need to make the turn to not hit the island, you make the turn, maybe a quarter mile ahead of time to turn that boat so that you don't hit the the rocks and the Enclave, right? Right. Same thing. So we have to see it first and begin to take the action. And then we will make the right turns at the right time. And but it's never a one to one comparison moment to moment. It's always like this lag and delay. But that's that's what makes life exciting. Because we can't know everything. But once you realize we can influence the outcomes in life, then the game of life becomes a very equitable game, because now we're not being made to feel like life is against those who have a situation that we can control to keep us from doing this. We know that for the most part 90 to 95%. It's up to us. And once you know that, everything changes.

Leighann Lovely 48:12

Yeah. So well said So absolutely. Well said. So I have, we are coming to time. So I have the question of the season. And just so you know, I could sit and talk with you for another, you know, three hours. You just it's absolutely amazing. But if if you could change something in your job, or the practice that people have in your role, what would that be? If anything?

William Deck 48:40

What would I change? So because I just literally just said they don't think I can change what happens within me, or decisions that I make that makes it much more difficult, but it's okay. Honestly, I think if there was anything to be changed in the kind of rolling work that I'm doing it is. And I don't mean this in a in a self absorbed or whatever way, but we are on the cutting edge of doing something new that is not common. And so one thing that I am doing, but I think is a challenge, because when you're someone that is creating a new vision, you have to get people on board. And I would say that in my line of work. It would be great if there was a way to communicate the ideas that I had more efficiently. So I'm doing social media and are communicating ideas. Have a one on one meetings, I'm doing podcasts I'm creating. I'm sharing ideas all the time. But if there was a more efficient way, which for me personally, could be a podcast, it could be a new media that doesn't currently exist. But I think just the idea that you can do whatever you set your mind to do, and there's no limitation but yourself in that core idea which is the core idea of mental bigness couldn't be more accurate, more easily transferred to the minds of other people, there'll be a beautiful thing. And I think that that is shifting because I truly believe that the world is in an age of awakening, that we're in the Age of Aquarius. So we're going from the age of thinking to the age of knowing. And I think a lot of people are beginning to have these kinds of revelations and move towards these very, very fast. And so I just would love for that to be happening more efficiently and effectively. Because whatever I say, I can be as articulate as I want to be, the open mind of an individual is what is required to be able to accept a new idea and then ponder for themselves. And so I just, I believe, and I know that there will be more effective way, but it feels like in the present moment, if we could find that perfect medium to be able to transfer these ideas. That is what I think currently is a limiting factor. Because right now, it's just word of mouth. And just like every other discipline, it grows over time, and then it's something standard that everybody's aware of. But I just pray the gift of mental fitness and believe that it will happen for more and more people. Because we all need it. It is not and that's a good thing. Because it's not personal opinion. It's, it's this reality, and seeing people with hope going after the dreams is so beautiful. And if I can be a small part of that shift, that's what I'm here to do.

Leighann Lovely 51:26

Excellent and how would somebody reach out to you or go about you know, reaching out to you?

William Deck 51:33

Yep, so on social media, which includes Facebook, LinkedIn, as well as Instagram is at William that B is in boy that Dick DS and David E CK. So William that be that deck. And then you can also email me if you want to reach out directly at W deck at minded business llc.com. Excellent. Oh, those are the primary wish.

Leighann Lovely 51:58

Excellent. And those will be in the show notes. So if you want to reach out to William you will be able to look in the show notes in order to get his contact information. But William, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been an awesome conversation.

William Deck 52:10

I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 52:13

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, life, idea, feel, talk, william, manifest, organizations, put, change, work, mental, years, day, living, situation, fear, mindset, love, speaking

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Something that we often that we forget is that people do better, even thrive, in environments that they feel comfortable and welcome in. Jennifer Rundell reminded me of this, she taught me a couple of tricks for my own space and has great advice on how you can make employees more productive with a couple of simple changes. We all know that sitting all day is not good for you and sitting under bad lighting is even worse, but there is so much more that goes into creating a healthy environment. It is not enough just to eliminate the bad things we also have to focus on offering the healthy. Join me and Jennifer for a great conversation about how a couple of simple things can make all the difference.

Contact Jennifer

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/jennifer-rundell-7b904a19

Website - rundellredesign.com

E-mail - info@rundellredesign.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Jennifer Rundell 02:43

Thank you, Leighann. It's a pleasure having the opportunity to chat with you.

Leighann Lovely 02:46

So from all of the guests that I've had, you actually run a very unique, a unique business. But in talking with you, you kind of educated me as to why this conversation is very important. So why don't you start off by telling us what you do and a little bit about yourself?

Jennifer Rundell 03:08

Okay, oh my gosh, boy, that's an open ended question. So my goal is I help people reimagine their best lives by redesigning where they work, live and play. So what in the world? Does that mean? People often ask me, okay, that's fine. But what does that mean? So I will go into a space and I will help design an optimal experience for your client. And sometimes your client is you.

Leighann Lovely 03:39

Excellent. So tell me how that relates to our conversation today? And what that you know what that means? You know, yeah, tell me, you know, again, tell me how you educated me on why this would be a great conversation.

Jennifer Rundell 03:58

So, employees function at a different level, depending upon how they feel in their space. And it's something that employers sometimes overlook. People don't give a lot of thought to, and you don't realize it's an issue until it's done. Right. So what does that mean? You know, what do you what do you mean? How does your face your space affect you? Well, think about it. If you're in a space that has a good combination, lighting, sound, color, texture, all of those things, you're going to feel more comfortable. So a perfect example of that is let's say you're going to spend a day on the spot which Hello, sign me up, I'm ready. And you know what to experience in that space. So you go to a spa, and you're picturing a combination of colors, textures light, you go to the spot the walls are dark red, The furniture is hard metal, the music is loud, all of a sudden your experience isn't right, it's just off. Well, employees have that same expectation when they go to work. So you go to work and you're picturing, you're going to be in an environment that feels safe, comfortable, the lighting is adequate. There's a choice of white noise versus music. All different things affect your functionality affect your creativity, and affect your productivity. And if people don't realize that if employers don't realize that they're not creating an ideal environment for their employees to have their top productivity,

Leighann Lovely 05:45

and that's, I find that wildly interesting, because, one, if you can, the audience can't see where I'm sitting right now. But I sit in literally in a bunker in my people have said Leanna kind of looks like you're in a bunker, right? And I'm like, I guess I kind of am. And there are days where I will choose to work upstairs in my home, because I do sit in the lower level of my home, which I have intentionally started to improve. Because it is it's a mess. And sometimes I get frustrated, because I'm like, oh my god, it's just so messy down here. And, and it does play a part into the psyche.

Jennifer Rundell 06:39

Absolutely. And visual clutter is so stressful for people and people don't realize it. And especially Okay, so now we've got this hybrid situation, and some people are working from home a little bit. They're working in the office a little bit, or they're totally working from home. And full transparency. First thing I thought when I saw what was behind us, I know somebody that can fix that for me. Right? Right, it does, it affects us. And we don't realize it. But there's so many studies that have been done that show, the increased productivity, when you're in a space that is cleaner has adequate lighting has a little bit of white noise, or music playing in the background, and not too loud, not too soft. So there are combinations of things. And it's very easy to set our employees and our entrepreneurial friends up for success by just altering a few things.

Leighann Lovely 07:35

So when we speak to that, how, how do we go about I mean, there are employees who work on the manufacturing floor. Right? So how do we how do we change that for those individuals? Is it? Is it about the break room? The lunch room? What how do we do better for those individuals where really their workspace is about safety? And making sure that they're? You know, yeah, it's about safety, you know, if you're running a big machine, so what do you how do you go into, you know, an environment like that to help them?

Jennifer Rundell 08:16

So you hit the nail on the head, it's about the common spaces. So what does the break room feel like? What does the lobby feeling? What does it feel like when they walk in the door every day coming to work? What is the tone that said, what's the combination of colors that are even on the floor in a manufacturing space, it doesn't have to just be gray cement and white walls. It doesn't have to be gray on the wall, it doesn't have to feel like they're in a prison. There are many ways to address the safety factor and make it a stimulating, comfortable place for people to be. And a very simple thing that I know you and I had chatted about previously, if some people do not know this, just the sight of a live plant, anywhere in the workplace, stimulates the environment, and stimulates the productivity for people. And here's the secret. It's because subliminally if people see a live plant anywhere, whether it's a network place on the floor, which wouldn't make sense a manufacturing militates in the lobby or the gathering space in their head, they think if a plant can survive here, so can I.

Leighann Lovely 09:30

So here's one thing that I completely love, or find interesting, some of these really large organizations you walk into, and they have complete and total walls that are just live plants. Yes. And for the longest time, I wondered, what's with what's with that? Right, right. And now I'm starting to understand And yes, this is actually a subliminal kind of message that you're sending people that if. And is it anything else is it? I mean, some of these walls are massive.

Jennifer Rundell 10:17

Yes, yes, they are. And it's funny because so my office is in expansive, and the Mayfair collection. And we have several giant walls in the lobby area that are the live moss. And there's something very calming about that there's something refreshing about it, and different colors stimulate different things in your brain. Now, green happens to be one of the colors that will in your mind, it promotes growth and freshness. Balance, it's a grounding color. And I do think there's something about bringing nature inside. I think it's so important. Because nature is good for us. Sunshine is good for us, fresh air is good for us. And if any way that a company or an organization can bring nature in the side, not only is it better for you to have the live plants, but even fake greenery is really good for your psyche.

Leighann Lovely 11:18

So do these does moss produce oxygen?

Jennifer Rundell 11:22

That's a very good question. And I'm not sure my guess is yes, because of course, live plants, the oxygen exchange is very important. And it's very good for your health. And I'm guessing moss must because these moss walls are kind of a big deal. And it's I mean, I don't want to say it's a newer trend. But I think it is kind of newer, because I don't remember seeing it ever before.

Leighann Lovely 11:45

Right? I mean, you would assume that, hey, here's the purest way to create natural oxygen in an air at a company that, hey, just got to water it.

Jennifer Rundell 11:58

Right, right. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 12:01

Which I suppose is also could be expensive, but it's beautiful. It's calming. It's right. Yeah, I completely. It didn't occur to me that creating the intentional environment was such a big deal. However, as soon as you said it to me, I went, Oh, well, of course, because I'm constantly, I'm constantly trying to think how can I create a better environment for myself to work? Great, great. And I've already I've already talked to my dad who's a carpenter about because I don't really have walls to like, if you looked at my space, you'd be like, Oh, I don't know how. I mean, like, I'm sitting in an unfinished part of my, of my house, right, that needs to be you know, actually have drywall and actually needs to be built out. So it's not like, it's just that I'm lazy. And just having pick stuff up and put it up, I just am sitting in a part of the house that just needs work.

Jennifer Rundell 13:15

And there's lots of things you can do, because you're not alone. I mean, let's face it, quite a few people work from home now, or they work in an environment that maybe isn't all finished and pretty. There's lots of things you can do in a temporary situation like that until the walls are built, you can put up screens and there's some fabulous screens that have all the potholders so you put up a metal screen that has all those rings in it and then you dump in a bunch of you know, pots that have living plants in it Winner winner chicken dinner, it's a two for one special

Leighann Lovely 13:49

right but what happens if you have absolutely no natural light for living plants?

Jennifer Rundell 13:55

Then you then you do fake plants so you can see the greenery right you have the effect of the greenery without having to care from and there are some things that you can do like succulents will survive okay without the direct sunlight and you could go that route as well.

Leighann Lovely 14:10

Yep. So with with the you know, the change in obviously the world. Yeah. Do you think that organizations have got gotten smart on that and thought okay, so you know, we don't necessarily have the greatest work and, and I've spoken with, you know, many of my friends who are like, I now that I've had a taste of working from home, and I've found that I am that much more productive. My My desk is sit sits literally in the middle of you know, this massive room. Yes, all day long people are walking past me. Do you think that companies have finally realized wow, this this, this is working the rise of the Hybrid work environments? Or do you think that there is a rise? You know of redesigns? Have you seen that? Have you felt?

Jennifer Rundell 15:09

Yes and both. So I think that companies, what's interesting is COVID forced us to go into some of those spaces and create more elbow room for people, right, because we were all trying to be six feet away from each other. And all of a sudden, that felt better. You didn't feel so crowded, you weren't tucked right up, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, in a row, we had to put some dividers and some walls up, whether they were temporary, or screens are something to give people a little more space. And that felt better to people. Because I think you look at some of those bullpens where you've just got a million desks in a row. And your space is the space of the guy across from you and next to you and you feel like you don't have any, any personal space. I think that felt uncomfortable. And COVID caused us to reevaluate that. So yes, I think some companies are saying, well, wait a minute, this seems to feel better. And not just because we're afraid of catching something from the person next to us. It gives you some room to breathe, and space. And whitespace is really important, whether it's on our calendar, whether it's on a piece of paper, whether it's on our lives, or whether it's in our physical space where we're working. So if you can give people a little more elbow room and a little more space, that's all part of designing a high productivity environment for people.

Leighann Lovely 16:33

And it's interesting that you say that, because, you know, if you talk to a business owner, they're going to well, at least they would have argued the opposite point. No, no, no, I need to get, you know, 30 people in here versus the 20 people that you're talking. Right. Right. So have you still seen pushback from from some of these companies on that?

Jennifer Rundell 17:01

I think it's all about the education process. It's all about having conversations with employers about the importance of the environment and the increased productivity. And I think that sometimes it's hard for them to see the ROI. Why would I put any money into my space, my space is perfectly fine. When you are bringing somebody into a space, and you're the first thing somebody sees employers, clients, whoever it might be employees, and they walk in, and there's old sofas that are ripped, there's blinds that are broken, there's paint peeling on the wall, I mean, what does that say? I don't care enough about you to create a beautiful environment. Now it doesn't come right out and say that, but that's what they're thinking. And people behave differently. Think about when you walk into an environment that's pleasant, and it's professional, and it's welcoming, you're going to stand a little taller, when you walk in, you're gonna feel better. And it's so easy for these employers to set the tone right away for their employees. What does their workspace look like? What does their that lobby look like? And what is the break room look like? Sometimes the break rooms are like, Oh, my gosh, I wouldn't go in there. It's gross.

Leighann Lovely 18:19

You know, and it's, it's, as you were just talking, I it popped into my head accompany that I years ago, and that engaged me to recruit for them. And I remember, you know, back back in the day, well, it's still this is still going on, for general labor recruitments. You too, or every facility you go into? Absolutely. One for safety purposes, you know, you're walking through and you're looking for clutter, you're looking for risk factors of do I want to work with this company? Are they too high risk to work with, you know, am I going to send an employee in that's, you know, gonna end up tripping and falling on, you know, boxes that are laying all over the place? Or, you know, are they blocking major exits, that type of thing. Anyways, the other thing that I always looked for was, Is this a welcoming environment? Are they going to walk in here and feel like, you know, they get a good feeling when they come to interview? Yes. And I remember so, you know, so I suppose part of me knew knew this. And that's the key, right? But I still consciously it's, it's one of those things that you don't, you don't think about? Exactly, but I remember walking into a facility. And when I walked out, I thought, oh, my god, that was a blast from the 80s the company and again, I'm guilty of this. I walk around my house and I don't see all the flaws. You know, I I I'm waiting to have some drywall hung. And I took down a shelf but I never took out the nails. Yeah. And I'm sure that people walk into my house and they're like, why does she have nails just a nail in the wall? You become blind? Absolutely to the flaws in your own home. It's same thing with you walk into somebody's house and it smells bad. Mm hmm. You become nose blind to the smell of your own home. And, and I regularly asked people when they walk in my house, do you smell anything in my house? Does it smell good in here? Because I have a puppy now. Right? And I'm always like, I, you know, I can't smell my own home. So I'm always asking people. It doesn't smell like dog in here does it? Anyway,

Jennifer Rundell 20:37

Exactly. I don't exactly know. And you're spot on. And they're all things that we the average Joe is not conscious of. Because what I do is I create an environment that creates the desired feel. I'm very aware of all the pieces that go into creating that environment. Most people don't think about it, and you don't realize it until it's either really right or really wrong. Because I think when you walk out of someplace, you're like, oh, my gosh, I would love to work here. What a great environment. Right? You're not consciously thinking, Oh, they had some live greenery on the wall. That was really cool. Or, Oh, I liked how they layered? No, I do. Because I see all that stuff, right? And I'm like, check, check, check, check. But this is where, like, with anything, working with an expert, somebody that's that's their job, like whether it's the safety expert to say, oh, there's a tripping hazard. There's this, there's that? Right? I am more aware of it than the average job. But it's amazing. If you would ask an employee. Did you like working there? What did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? They might not know. But if you specifically said hey, how comfortable were you in that break room? What did you like? What didn't you like? And maybe if you give some guided questions, people wouldn't be able to say, oh, you know, there was an adequate seating or, gosh, this was always dirty. Or the colors in there kind of felt like I was in prison. And things that you don't you're you might not be consciously aware of. But they are affecting don't let anybody kid you. They're affecting their performance. They're affecting, do they want to come into work every day? Is that a place that they're looking forward to coming to? Are they if you're in a building, and you're excited to bring guests in? And to bring people in? Or are you going to the coffee shop or someplace else? Because you don't want people to see what your office really looks like,

Leighann Lovely 22:40

right? And here's the thing about the company that I was talking about, you know, that felt like you're walking into the 80s. They were a tech company. What does that say about them? When they're supposed to be forward thinking technology. But when you walk into their facility, they have couches that look like they were my grandma's couch.

Jennifer Rundell 23:03

They're frozen in time, Qur'an, without meaning to your right, the message they're sending, whether it's their clients, their potential employees, whoever it might be, is, we are not forward thinking correct? We are frozen in time. Yeah. Or we don't care enough that that's not important to us. Right, which sends the message to the client. You're not really that important to us. Yeah, you can come in don't mind or dust.

Leighann Lovely 23:28

Right. But and I could not for the life of me get anybody to work there. Because I would get them excited about the job. They would go interview there, and they go, Ah, I don't want to move forward with that. Okay, tell me why, you know what, it just wasn't the right position. And really, it was that subconscious. Like, oh, I don't know that I want to work in that environment. It wasn't the work. It wasn't the job. It wasn't the people. It was the environment. I don't want to sit in a in a building that reminds me of my grandmother's living room. No offense to my grandmother. But you know, everybody, everybody, you know, I had hand me down couches in my first apartment for my grandma. Absolutely. And I gotta say I was really excited to make my you know, make some money so that I could replace those couches because everybody walk in and be like, what's what the couches? Exactly? It's beautiful. Extremely well kept couches. Yes. But you know the floral pattern that you know was exactly that was really like that was the style, right Laurel or the paisley pattern, which is fine in some things you know, some clothes and I think that's coming back or or is it already come back and gone again.

Jennifer Rundell 24:58

If you wait long enough Most things make a circle. Right? But it's that's not the kind of statement you want to make. Right. And I think, again, you know, employers and business owners are really busy. And they're trying to make their product, create their service, whatever it is. And this might be something they don't think about. But there are some really easy, simple changes they can make. And I think people would be surprised at the retention rate at the recruitment rate at how things change without spending a whole lot of money.

Leighann Lovely 25:39

Right? I mean, that there's another company that they they didn't go and spend or blow a ton of money on changing the entire environment. But what they did do is install a really nice TV, that you could go and play games, video games on, on your on your break, a couch where you could go and lounge on. Yeah. And that, right, they're made all of the sudden the employees like, wow, we have like a little hangout area where we can. And you know, the cost of a flat screen TV nowadays is, I mean, it's under $1,000, for a very large flat screen TV. Exactly. And if you're all if you're a business that has over 50 employees, that cost is really nothing.

Jennifer Rundell 26:39

Oh, my gosh. And I, I always tell all of my clients, you do not have to spend a million dollars for your place to look like a million bucks, there are some very simple things, you know that the live plants throw a rug, and if you've got all cement floors, and they're very cool. And I love that, look, throw a few rugs down, give some texture, give some add that extra layer, and it's amazing what that will do. How comfortable are the seats that people are sitting in? If they're sitting there for eight hours a day? How about a standing desk, give people an opportunity to be we all know now that sitting is the worst thing for you. So let's create an environment where we can have a standing that if we can't afford for everybody to have a standing desk? What about some stations or some break stations or opportunities for movement? And it's really simple stuff. Look at your lighting? Because that's huge. If you're in Super, yes, I'm looking at your lighting.

Leighann Lovely 27:42

I know, I know, oh, trust me, I've I've, I've looked into all of this. But you know, when you're in a bunker there, yeah.

Jennifer Rundell 27:51

And there's, there's ways to and I would love to do that for you, I would love to do a video of a before and after your space. And how was some very simple changes, we can change that from feeling like a bunker to feeling like a nice workspace you, you would have

Leighann Lovely 28:09

to come and see my space before you commit to that because I think you're I think you're committing to, to something that you don't quite understand. See, this space, and I know the audience can't see. But the space that I'm in is a very large room, it doesn't look from it doesn't look like that from the angle because I am actually in a tiny little corner of it. Right. And it's a very, very large room. That is actually also or was originally my art studio, that my daughter and I and so what I did was I converted, you know, like probably, you know, 100 square foot portion of this into my home office. Yeah. And if you were to just look a little bit further, you know, to my, my right, you're gonna see complete and utter chaos. Yep, paint on the floor, paint over every surface. And that's an art and my daughter. My daughter is five and she always used to say Mommy, I got a little you know, paint, you know, on the ground and I said it's an art room. There's supposed to be paint everywhere. And that's so she loves coming in this room because it is the one room in the house where she can just express herself in any way by getting paints by getting what you know, glue, whatever the medium is that we're using. And she can be messy. Yeah, and then we have to hose her off before she leaves the room because glitter I mean it's, it's insane. And I And again, I am a believer in you know, arch, that kind of stuff. I'm going into a tangent here. So but before you commit, you should probably see the room.

Jennifer Rundell 30:06

So, sight unseen, there are simple things you could do. And I'm sure there's other people that are in your same situation, again, a temporary screen, if if looking at that, it sounds like you've created this beautiful green of space, which is fabulous. However, for you to be productive, and to be, for your ROI to be as high as you want it to be, and for your productivity to be high, block that visually. Simple screen, right? And, and I, and I really think that can be done. And think of all the other people that are working from home and have similar situations to, there are some simple tips and tricks that that people can do without spending a lot of money to change that up.

Leighann Lovely 30:51

And that's awesome. Because, you know, the scene that I have, that you can't see it and I used to have a shower curtain hanging. But now I've changed my angle. And so now the shower curtain would be hanging over a table that I need to because I needed to expand my you know, so now it's hanging in the wrong place. And that requires me to stand get a drill and under you. Right, that's the pure laziness of like, oh, and I glued it. So then I would have to chisel away the glue. I mean, it was like put up there to not come down. Because I don't do things halfway, like oh, yeah, I'm gonna hang this and it's never coming down.

Jennifer Rundell 31:44

Exactly. Exactly. Well, that's good. Oh, good thinking,

Leighann Lovely 31:48

right. And then when I realized, oh, I want to redesign my space. Oh, now I have to get this shower curtain rod down that I hung up to, you know, never come down.

Jennifer Rundell 31:58

So there's, there's always a workaround. Right. But I think outside of the box,

Leighann Lovely 32:03

yes. And I love I, like, I'm a very creative, I'm a creative, not a designer, by any means design. I mean, again, you know, my that's, that's, that's the extent of my design. And again, my I wish the audience you know, sometimes they wish that I did video, so the audience could actually see the, the chaos that is my space. But I am a creative and I love, I love the concept of creating that beautiful environment to allow people to be more productive and successful. And I believe in it. Because I have seen I've seen it on the flip side of kit, and I didn't even realize it until you had reached out to me and said, Hey, do you know? And then it kind of all dawned on me of Yeah, I guess I do. Because I've seen candidates go into companies and racking my brain as to why are they not taking jobs? Yeah, the environment. It's not that it's a bad place to work. But they're turned off by the way that it looks when they walk in the door. Absolutely.

Jennifer Rundell 33:19

And more than the way it looks. It's the way it feels. And it's the way it makes them feel. And I think, again, we just go through the motions during the day. And we are not aware of how all that works. I mean, there's an art to selling. There's a reason that certain retailers are very successful. It's the music that's playing, it's the lighting, it's it's the colors in there. And there's all sorts of studies that are done. And I think sometimes employers forget that that's equally as important for their employees. And it's equally important for their potential clients because how you make the client feel when they walk in the door. And I always tell people, I say your business tell your tells your story before you even say a single word. Because it's the experience they have before they even open the door.

Leighann Lovely 34:14

Right. And here's something else that's that's becoming very, like, very apparent. You because You brought up selling. Yeah, I have. Everybody has seen a shift in the way people dress. Yes. People buy from people they are comfortable with. Mm hmm. People are drawn to people they are comfortable with. Over the last couple of years you've seen the the ties, the business suits starting to become a thing of the past. Correct. And I have found that I am much more apt to approach somebody wearing something a lot more casual than when I see somebody wearing a very stuffy? Yes, suit and tie. Because we I think it's a subconscious mindset of oh, they're wearing very stuffy suit and tie. They're, they're more unapproachable,

Jennifer Rundell 35:21

right? Well, your space does the same thing. How are you dressing your space? How does it feel? Is it warm and welcoming? And we do like to do business with people we know like, and trust, correct. We also like to do our business in a space that makes us feel comfortable, right? And your space should be warm and welcoming. It should. And again, like if you're in a high tech space, and you've got grandma's furniture in there, there's a disconnect. In our mind. It's uncomfortable. And we often don't know what it is that's not sitting, right. You know, you walk out of someplace, you're like, man, that just didn't feel right. But you don't know why. Well, that's why. Because there's a disconnect, and what you expect and the experience that you expect. And I mean, every successful business wants to create an ideal experience for your client, whether your client is your employee, whether your client is yourself, whatever it might be, and setting the tone, setting the scene, creating that environment, that physical environment, allows all that beautiful stuff to happen, all the exchange that needs to happen.

Leighann Lovely 36:31

And you've and you've said it multiple times, and I haven't, I haven't, you know, kind of highlighted what you said, and I want to do that really quick. It has nothing to do with what it looks like. It has nothing to do with what I mean it does. But the most, the most important aspect of all of that is how it makes somebody feel. Exactly, exactly above all else, if somebody walks out feeling an emotion that is negative, they will never walk back in. And that comes down to I mean, everything again, the guy and the guy or the gal in the suit, if you feel they are unapproachable. That feeling becomes reality, if you walk out of a business and they feel something you feel something negative. You know, that's that's the that's the, the thing that becomes reality to you. Because we are humans. And we are driven by emotion. Not logic. Exactly, exactly. And I think that the world is finally realizing that because so many people try to sell whether it be a job, or a reason to stay on logic. And that is not how we we are biological beings, we don't make decision on logic. We make decisions on emotional, you know, reactions to the way that things make us feel. And then we justify on logic.

Jennifer Rundell 38:07

Absolutely. And it's all because it's sensory. Right? So it's what does it smell like? What does it sound like? What does it look like? What does it feel like? All of those things. And it's amazing the difference, you could take identical spaces, paint them different colors, and have people walk in and walk out. And there's lots of science behind it. And there's studies that have been done. And how does it? How does it feel just based on the color alone, right? And if you feel good, if you feel relaxed, if you feel inspired, if you feel positive, you're going to be a high producing employee. And as an employer, that's what you want. Do you want these high producing high level employees? And the way to attract them is to make your environment feel good. The minute they walk in the door.

Leighann Lovely 38:58

So here's a funny story. My daughter in order to get her to get potty trained, we should because we were just really struggling with her wanting to. She just and I think a lot of kids are just lazy. They're like, well, I have a diaper on and I'm watching TV. I don't want to go potty. Right? So the the carrot at the end of that stick was once you're fully potty trained, you get to we were going to paint your room, and we're going to redesign your room. So I brought home some different, you know, like samples, you go there and they can have like different and she picked out the color orange.

Jennifer Rundell 39:37

Ooh, that's a high stimulation.

Leighann Lovely 39:39

And I was like I said, I don't know that I like orange is not my color. Oranges. Not at all my color. And I'm like, I'm looking at my husband going. I don't know that I can handle orange. And he's like, Yeah, but you pretty much told her she could pick whatever she wanted. And I'm like oh Oh my god, I cannot believe that this is going to happen. So I'm kind of like, well, what about pink? What about purple? No, she dug in orange. And I'm like, okay. So the compromise was every other like, two walls orange. And then we showed her a sample of a room that was orange and pink. And I was like, these are two strange colors. But it really turned out beautiful. But I was so afraid that every time I walked in that room that I was going to be like, Oh, right. And then she says, But Mommy, the ceilings not painted. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? And I'm arguing, you know, and my dad finally says to me, what's the big deal? Paint the ceiling? And I'm like, okay, so her room is orange and pink, with the ceiling painted orange, and she loves it. She absolutely loves it, which is all that matters. But for me the comfort on that was not. It took a long time for me to be able to walk in that room and be like, Oh, this is great. But it's there. And here's why not because I love it. Because I watch her walk in that room and just love it. And that's all that matters to me.

Jennifer Rundell 41:30

And she is your ideal client. And you are creating a space that makes your ideal client feel comfortable. Now. If you are offending people, if you are creating a space that maybe makes one person comfortable and everybody else uncomfortable, okay, that's a different extreme, right. And it's funny, I was at a networking event this morning, and we were just talking about colors. And we were talking about what color would you be if you could choose a color and why? Because color makes us feel something?

Leighann Lovely 42:00

Right. And I would be purple. I am 100% like purple is my color. And I always thought that she was going to be my Little Miss purple, because that's how I grew up. Right? Yeah. But I have a child whose favorite color is orange.

Jennifer Rundell 42:19

I love it. So purple. is creativity, luxury sophistication. Well, Natalie, so we're in just so orange is traditionally energy, excitement and inspiration.

Leighann Lovely 42:37

She's totally that she is full of energy she is this girl was so inspired. I mean, she is what color are you?

Jennifer Rundell 42:49

Ah, somebody asked me that this morning and green. Because green to me, signifies growth, hope, positivity. And my word for the year is fresh. And I always associate fresh with green and the spring. And green is also balanced growth. And it's a grounding color. And so, green is kind of my thing.

Leighann Lovely 43:15

Awesome. So we are coming to time, I want to ask you the question of the season. What would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your job? If you could?

Jennifer Rundell 43:29

You know, it's a fabulous question. And I saw it. And it's really funny because I have so much fun doing what I do, that I really can't think of much that I would change in my job. I'm one of those rare birds that I would do what I do without getting paid because I enjoy it so much. What I get out of it is watching the process of making somebody's dream come through in their space and watching them feel fabulous. So I have a really hard time answering that I'm not sure that there are a lot of things that I would change in it. And I've kind of made it my own niche. I've kind of done my own thing. I my non traditional designer, I love to use repurposed items. And maybe what I would do in my job has changed the stigma that you have to have a lot of money to hire a designer. That's it. And not that I'm cheap. But I mean, I think that there are people that think, Oh, I can't do that. That's not in my budget. And I am a huge proponent, huge proponent of let's think outside of the box, as a matter of fact, why does it have to be a box?

Leighann Lovely 44:37

Right? Right. I mean, and it is funny because when I think of, you know, hire designer, okay, well, I don't have 1000 or I mean, I don't have you know, $100,000 to have them come in, but I'm going to assume that you don't have to have $100,000 to have a designer come in, but you do not. It's always been the rich and famous?

Jennifer Rundell 45:01

Absolutely, absolutely. So so that is exactly what I would change, I think I need, people need to see that. You don't have to spend a million bucks for your place to look like a million bucks, and most importantly for it to feel like a million bucks to you and your ideal client, because that's the whole goal. And I work with a lot of small business owners, and they don't have $100,000 for me to come in and redesign the space, right? But we can work together for a fraction of that. And we really change things up and create this fabulous space that speaks to their story and their business and their ideal clients.

Leighann Lovely 45:39

Excellent. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Jennifer Rundell 45:44

Oh, my goodness. There's many ways my website is currently under construction. My goal is June, we're going to launch the new website. So you can check out Rundell Redesign through my website. I'm on Instagram and Facebook all under Rundell Redesign, spelled R U N D EL L. And then the word redesign and LinkedIn as well.

Leighann Lovely 46:05

Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes. Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me. This has been an awesome conversation. I think you learned a lot and you know, appreciate your time.

Jennifer Rundell 46:15

Thank you. Thank you. It's been my pleasure. And what a fascinating way to look at HR and businesses and the whole kit and caboodle.

Leighann Lovely 46:25

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

feel, space, people, room, environment, employees, change, work, walls, walk, create, color, live, business, paint, redesign, couches, orange, client, employers

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Addiction is a real problem, some hide it, some are openly fighting it, and others have support but not enough. The only way that we can begin to understand the battle that so many fight is to talk about what addiction is. How it affects people and how companies can support their people instead of punishing them. Accounting to my two amazing guests, living in recovery can be not only wonderful, but can also be fun, and they are proof of this. Join us for a fun and educational conversation.

Contact

Lane Kennedy – linkedin.com/in/lanekennedy

Tamar Medford - linkedin.com/in/tamarmedford

Website – https://laughingwithoutliquor.com/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Lane Kennedy 02:28

Thanks for having us, Leighann. Good to be with you.

Tamar Medford 02:32

Yes. So good to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:34

So why don't you both? You know, start off by telling me telling my audience a little bit about yourself. Lane, why don't you go first? Perfect.

Lane Kennedy 02:40

I like to go first. It's great. Sometimes I deferred it Tamar, but I'll go first today. Thanks for having us on the show, Leighann. My name is Lane Kennedy. I live in long term recovery. What that means is I don't drink or do drugs or eat Snickers bars. And I've done that for about 26 years now. So that kind of guides the direction of my life. I'm also a hypnotherapist and a DNA geek. I help people live in high performance state. That's really important for those people who are Type A personality, who want to live a long life, they typically find themselves to me so I can help them or support them and finding a better more sustainable life so they can live into their 60s 70s 80s 90s and 100. Like I am

Leighann Lovely 03:31

Awesome. Tamar, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Tamar Medford 03:36

Thank you so much for having us land. My name is Tamar Medford and I also live in long term recovery except they still feel like a bit of a baby. I'm just about to celebrate 11 years. And I believe that I found my purpose as a result of finding recovery and getting sober. I'm a neuro change method practitioner. So I really help women, you know, kind of master their minds so they can let go of those limiting beliefs and create a life that they're fulfilled, you know, a life that they never ever want to go back to their old way of living. And I live in Canada. I'm the Canadian of our hosts our podcast and you know, I have a partner and three i co parent, three girls and three for babies. So I'm happy to be here.

Leighann Lovely 04:22

And three for babies. Wow, I have one my audience I have one dog. He just turned a year old and every day I have to stop myself from either kicking him out of the house or or just beating him to death. Puppies are so hard. They're hard. I have a five year old and she's so much easier than right. Because I'll yell at him and he just wags his tail and I'm like no, no, I'm not. No, no, no, you don't get it. I'm yelling at you and he's just like, Uh huh, you okay? Um, he's a big, like, gigantic golden retriever. So and he's stronger than me. And you know, he read sorry, I digress. I just love I love dogs I love and all animals and the liver. But he's maddening. Every I struggle every I don't know, maybe I need to go into therapy or something for this this. Yeah. Since I got him I've been going crazy. Right? Everybody who knows me right now is I know that I'm going through this this major issue with my my puppy, except that he looks like a massive, you know, he's like 100 pound just dumb, cute, adorable thing that terrorizes me every day. Okay, let's move on. So, I want you guys do is amazing. Because, you know, one, it's not it's not an easy thing to one, to live in recovery, and then to go out and talk about it. And that is what, right now the world needs. We need warriors, we need people having these conversations, to make it less of a stigma, right? Because, you know, for so long, there's so many things out there that people are like, Oh, don't talk about that in public don't and I still don't talk about religion, you know, politics and everything else. But this is a conversation that we all need to start having. And just really humanize and make it more, okay to be able to talk with people about it. Because if we did, more people would ask for help. They wouldn't hide it. For as long as people hide it. They would know where to go, right? So why don't you tell me a little bit about your journey to and again, whatever How much ever you want to share, but your journey to finding your voices? And do you know to become who you are today and what you're doing.

Lane Kennedy 07:18

Tamar? Why don't you start that off? Because it's been so long for me, you're closer to it.

Tamar Medford 07:22

Okay, no problem.

Lane Kennedy 07:24

And you're a corporate, right? You come from the corporate world,

Tamar Medford 07:27

I do. I do. I and I was very functioning towards the end. I mean, I, you know, started like a lot of people do drinking at the age of 14. And I just felt like I never belonged. And, you know, alcohol turned my life from, you know, black and white to color. That's the only way I can describe it. And I wanted more. And unfortunately, you know, in my 20s, I hit some very dark times, I think that was kind of where it was never enough. But then I thought, hey, you know what I gotta do what society tells me to do, I need to go to school, I need to get a good job, I need to get married by the car by the home. And so that's exactly what I did. And you know, I had a very good job. And I worked in corporate for about 28 years. And of course, they knew that I you know, was an alcoholic, it was no secret. But I think because I could come to work every day, I might have smelled like a brewery. But because I could show up. It was you know, the people that I worked for were under this, like, as long as you show up and you do the work well, it's okay, you know, you'll you'll be accepted here. And of course, there's such a culture of drinking in sales. I think you know, that it's still like that. But I remember, you know, it was just the norm to go out with your customers and get drunk. And, you know, do it again, the next day, go to trade shows. And towards the end, although everybody knew that I had a problem, because of course, at the company functions, I just let loose and I never remembered the end of them. And it always became a big joke. But I'm very fortunate, I had a few people who were really my friends in in my place of business and said, you know, you might have a problem. And of course, I didn't listen for a long time until I actually hit that spiritual bottom. And, you know, I was financially bankrupt, unhappily married, you know, all the things never gave me any sort of satisfaction or fulfillment in life. And I actually hired a personal trainer in the beginning and thought, well, if I lose 75 pounds, and I changed the way I look on the outside, people will love me more. I'm gonna be so happy, but it didn't fix the pain I felt on the inside. And that was I didn't like what I was doing. I wasn't happy in my marriage, my relationship. And so I actually began like, went on this six month journey of I went full on to the addiction of of fitness. And I had chicken broccoli and rice every single day. I would go to the gym seven days a week because I thought that's what would To make me happy and the cool part and how I ended up becoming sober as the woman I hired as a personal trainer was actually part of a 12 step recovery program. And partway through as you know, I would report how much I had had to eat all week and including, that was nine, nine drinks, I'd have nine beers on the weekend. And I was so proud, like, that was my happy, you know, look at me for a moment. And she had suggested, you know, I think you might have a problem. And this is what I do. And so I'm very fortunate that the business I worked for was very accepting, like they knew, and they were very supportive of it, they would try and plan other kinds of events that didn't involve alcohol. But of course, there was still that I just, I was very lucky that I came from that corporate world that was okay with me being sober and supported that aspect of my life. And, you know, becoming sober has changed everything, I found my purpose, I do what I love today, I was able to actually leave corporate, but I still talk to a lot of people and a lot of women who work in HR, on how they can start to support people who are sober or want to give up alcohol.

Leighann Lovely 11:08

And something that you said in there. I mean, that's an amazing story, because 11 years ago, it wasn't widely accepted. And knowing somebody, you know, businesses quite often just kind of, they didn't talk about it, if they knew it, it was a hush hush, you know, and if they found out about it, it was more like, okay, don't don't let anybody know that we know, because we don't want it to be known that we were allowing this. So it's amazing that you were in a situation where your employer, you know, helped you through that kept you and allowed you to continue to, you know, grow and and find other ways to, you know, other events because you're right, I'm I'm through and through sales, and it's events, evening events, they're at bars, they're at the first thing that everybody does is go and run and get their drink before they start networking. You know, and yeah, it's just but something else that you said, I'm switching addictions. In I have an addictive personality, I always have no I'm, you know, I'm not an alcoholic. But I, I'll go from one thing to the next. I remember I bought loose leaf tea. I became severely addicted to like loose leaf tea, and I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I got and then I would spend like hundreds and hundreds of dollars. And then everybody's like, What do you mean? What? Are you going to drink all this? No. And I didn't drink at all it just it became an obsession. And then it was fine wines for me like, Oh, I'm gonna go and buy all these fine. Get a drink all this? Well, no, now I've got like 8 billion bottles of wine. They're gonna sit there and it's gonna take me 10 years to drink. Because right now my addiction is, you know, my most recent one is I love making resin art. Okay, so these aren't necessarily unhealthy. But I have an addictive? Well, I mean, I suppose you know, collecting hundreds of bottles of wine is probably not the most healthy. Anyways. So there, but it's it's completely true people who have those addictive personalities. And unfortunately, if it is drugs and alcohol, and those, it is very easy to you know, fall down that. And there's a lot of professionals who have it. And as soon as you give up that one addiction, it's so common that you watch that person slide into some other addiction. Working out seven days a week. I mean, it and you can you can watch people like all of a sudden you'll say to somebody, wow, you've lost 60 pounds. What are you doing? Oh, I'm just working out and come to find out when you hear their full story. You're like, oh, I never knew you were an alcoholic, or I never knew you were struggling with this. And then then you hear their full story and you're like, Oh, why didn't you tell? You know, why didn't you ask for help? Or? Right? I mean, in both you're laughing at my grandson. Anyway.

Lane Kennedy 14:30

Well, there's a couple of things here. LeighAnn now I know why we're friends. Absolutely. I have a huge tea collection. And my husband's always like, what are you doing? Like, what's the purpose of this? I'm like, I don't know. I just have to have more tea.

Leighann Lovely 14:45

So, yeah, I have a tea pot collection. I have a different sifter that I know.

Lane Kennedy 14:51

It's so important. And from the work that I do, you know, I would say you know your drdc which are genes that I look at when somebody comes to me and work with me about their behavior. And I would say you're all lit up, that's what I would say, just like I am, people who have addiction or have these snips is what we call them in my work. They just need more support. So we don't buy, you know, 10 pounds of loose leaf tea, or drink, you know, three bottles of wine every night. You know, it's here in America, I can't speak for Canada tomorrow. But here in America, we have, you know, about 14 million over 14 million people who are suffering from alcoholism, in the workplace. In the workplace, that's a lot of people in the workplace that's like one and 12 one and 13 people who are actively in their addiction, and 25% of them drink, like on the job during work hours. And I was one of those people. I, you know, come from the entertainment and fashion industry. I was at parties. I was working with designers, one of my designers says, you smell you have to go home, because that was literally reeking of vodka. And, you know, when you're kind of stuck in your alcoholic behavior, you don't you don't know. Like, I didn't know I had showered that day. I had done my hair that day, I had my heels on, I was looking good. I thought, but this designer said, No, you have to go home and like sleep it off. And I think that's something that a lot of people will ignore today is they'll just, Oh, it's fine. You know, like, whatever. And I'm really grateful because that designer gave me a moment for me to reflect on my life. Like, how dare you. Like, that was the beginning of like, questioning my drinking. I have a drinking problem. She just told me that I smell how's that possible. And so I drink and I use and I love drinking vodka, I love red wine. But after that moment, you know, after that designer said that I really kind of had to slow down and reevaluate, I became a, what we call a periodic drinker, where I would drink for a couple months and then stop. Maybe I would drink for a couple of weeks and then stop. And then it just, it just wasn't fun anymore. Just literally was not fun anymore, you know. So I'm grateful that I, by accident, stopped drinking, like it wasn't my plan to stop. Like that. Just it just happened, I say. And I jumped into recovery. And my life got exponentially better. Like I had a great career coming into it. But as soon as I found recovery, my career exploded, my life exploded. It was teknicks all the things that I didn't even know that I wanted, I started, you know, accumulating. And one of the the big things around, you know, addiction or alcoholism is is the stigma. Right? That we don't talk about it that we don't. It's like no, that's you're not going to bring that up into the light. And I just want people to hear that, you know, there's the American Disability Act that says you can talk about it, you can say, You know what, I need help. You can raise your hand and say I need help, and then that then you don't get fired. Like, I didn't get fired, because I actually went back to that designer and said, I think I have a problem. And they're like, oh, okay, great. So a lot of people don't even know that, that they you know, they think that they have to keep it quiet. So, I don't know, recovery is a great tool. It's it's, it lets us live our best lives. Like, don't we want to live that?

Leighann Lovely 18:57

Right. And in recent years, I believe now they have they they've actually made alcoholism, drug addiction, all of those specific wording has now become protected classes, just like mental health, just like so if you go to your employer and say, I have, you know, an addiction, or I have a, they, they can't they can't fire you for that. Because it is now just like, you know, if I were to go to my employer and say I have bipolar disorder, they can't say okay, well, we're gonna fire you because of that. Of course, I'm self employed. So, you know, that'd be myself firing me. Maybe I should fire myself. I don't know. No. So you know, and that's it. That's the whole point is that if you hide it, and you get fired for your behavior, and the you know, and then you go back and say, Well, no employer you can't fire me because I'm an alcoholic. It's too late at that point.

Lane Kennedy 20:02

Yeah, exactly.

Leighann Lovely 20:04

It's too late. If you go to your employer and say, I need to go into a recovery program, because I have a problem, that employer is now able to assist and help by offering you the time that you need, and your your job is then secure, so that you can go and take the time that you need to get the help that you need, and know that you have a position to come back to. And I don't know that people understand that. And I'm not you know, and again, I'm sure that there's employers out there going, oh, man, don't don't tell the masses. But this is this is a real thing. People stay quiet until it's too late.

Lane Kennedy 20:13

Because when people die, yes, what happens? People die. I mean, alcoholism is a deadly disease, addiction, substance use disorder, it's killer, and people die in their home alone, because they're too afraid to say, You know what, I have a problem. And they're too afraid of the stigma or the feedback, or somebody getting in trouble at work. And I think the pandemic, I mean, thank God in a lot of ways, and like, Thank God for the pandemic, because recovery came screaming out of the closet, you know, it's like, we have to recover together, we have to talk about this, you know, mental health, we have to be talking about it.

Leighann Lovely 21:34

Absolutely. And that's, you know, the I went through the, I went through a recovery program, Lee, and I think you and I talked about this. And again, it's been a long time since we last spoke, but I went through, I went through the 12 step program. And this was very early in, you know, I was in my early 20s. But I had not yet properly been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And so after I went through, you know, the recovery, and my, my doctor told me, I will not treat you if you continue to abuse, alcohol, and drugs, and continue to do what you're doing. And I'm like, oh, yeah, but you know, when I'm not doing it, I can't stay in my own head. And he's like, okay, I get that. But in order to get you to a point of, of health, healthy living, you have to stop. So I went into recovery, I went into the program. Now I'm now I'm sober, I'm on, you know, fast forward, I'm on the proper medications. And I'm, I'm high functioning. And I said to my doctor, I don't believe I'm an alcoholic. And he goes, Well, we don't know. Do you want to risk it? I don't know if I do. So I didn't drink for a very long time. And then one day, I had a glass of wine, and I'm like, okay. Okay. I know, I'm a social drinker. But I'm also not, you know, I don't, I'm not an alcoholic. I don't, I don't have that drive or that. But I'm a rarity. For most people, once they crossed that threshold, they don't go back. For me, it was an underlying issue of mental health. And I needed to I, you know, again, I still I still have an addictive personality. But I never I the the reason that I had my alcohol and drug addiction was because of that underlying mental health issue. And my brain was just not functioning properly. For most people. Never once they've crossed that threshold. It's just better to walk away from it.

Lane Kennedy 23:56

Well, alcoholism is a mental, right? It's a mental disorder. Yeah. And a lot of people don't want to look at it that way. They don't want to think Oh, my God, I have a mental disorder. No, no, one more disorder. But really, like, alcoholism stems from, like, depression, anxiety right there. They're all kind of the same. You know, drinking is the medicine for the disorder that we suffer from. End of sentence period. We suffer from a mental illness. And for Tamara and I, we use alcohol. We don't take a substance. We don't take a pill. Right? So we suffer from this. Again, I look at the jeans. So I can look at them and say, okay, the OPR is off the dr. DS off the AP ones off. So those jeans, that body needs to get fed, somehow they need to get that information. So not everybody will, you know, pick up a glass of wine. Like like you're picking up the tea right? Hey, I like it's going to find a way to soothe it, so to speak. But some people will find recovery, and then they won't have to go around in that that constant loop. It gets rid this is such a big conversation here, LeAnn?

Leighann Lovely 25:18

So, so and I see now you're educating me on something. And I find that very interesting. And this is why you know, I love talking to people like you because so there are DNA indicators. Yes. That say that can you can actually read that say that this person is is more apt to become an alcoholic or is an alcoholic?

Lane Kennedy 25:47

I would say more inclined, if the environment you have to think about like your environment, it really it. It shapes who you are your environment, just think about that for a minute your environment, you can have the perfect life. But say you have a neighbor that's constantly pounding on the door next to you, that is going to drive you crazy, right? So that environment, your environment, is going to start feeding into like, you're going crazy. And then you want to do something that's the environment, the environment shapes you. I get the second

Leighann Lovely 26:28

I get the BB gun. Yeah,

Lane Kennedy 26:30

okay, you get the BB gun. Yes. Right? Which, so I'm not gonna say, Oh, I'm gonna look at your jeans. And I'm gonna say, I'm gonna call you an alcoholic? No, what I see are, you know, your jeans or your DNA? They could go sideways. They could be little rebel rousers in there, one gene is not going to be the answer, right? No, it's the whole your whole environment, your whole body, there's so many contributing factors that lead to somebody becoming an alcoholism.

Leighann Lovely 26:57

Almost like an autoimmune disease, which is in you. But it's an autoimmune disease is triggered by a series of, you know, events stress it can you know, I could I could have the all the indicators for an autoimmune disease, but it and here's why I bring that up. I have identical mirror image twin brothers, one of those twins, has both of them have the indicators for an autoimmune disease, only one has triggered it.

Lane Kennedy 27:24

Yep. And that would be in their genes. Correct. So I'd be able to look at that and be like, Oh, here it here's both of these sets of genes. This one has this and there's this one little snip that's different. And that's been triggered. Interesting. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 27:38

That's, That, see, I find that completely and totally fascinating. Because, you know, and especially in twins, again, mirror image, identical twin brothers, which means that they're 100%, there is no differentiator between those two, they were created by the same egg, the same sperm. You know, I mean, they, when I was a little girl, they're three years older than me, I used to mix them up because they are so identical. That's awesome. Right? So but one has triggered it, the other one has?

Lane Kennedy 28:15

Yep, that's exactly right.

Leighann Lovely 28:18

And that comes down to, you know, stress, and one has more gray hair than the other one. At the why is that? Well, because life happens. And when life happens, it changes the way that our body reacts. And so one may have more stress than the other one, therefore, he's going gray faster. He's also got two kids, you know, that are. Okay, if there's ever a study that wants to be done on why we our bodies change in a certain way, or at a different rates, produce some mirror image, or produce identical twins and see how they grow up. Because, yeah, that's that I find that completely fascinating. Okay, so, obviously, and this is another great case study, because, you know, employees now coming forward and talking about this kind of stuff. It's, we're, we're literally in. And I suppose every generation, every generation has said, we're in a pivotal moment of changing the landscape of the way that we look at humans and trying to really push, you know, that we're humanizing humans and we're not putting them all into this bucket of, okay, you know, you this is the way that you're supposed to act at this given time. We're now looking at individuals in the workplace. We're trying, we're trying to make that shift, right. How do you think that this is really going to impact our workforce going forward? I mean, As far as helping them versus penalizing them, do you think it's going to make a huge change? Tomorrow? I see you coming off of mute. So why don't you go first?

Tamar Medford 30:13

Absolutely. I mean, you know, part of the reason I never wanted to talk about it is because of the stigma. You know, because I had always heard that you have to have had a traumatic childhood to become an alcoholic or an addict. Now, it runs in my family, right. But again, my family suffers from depression, anxiety, you know, my dad is very open about it with me now. And I think in the workplace, if we can, you know, create an environment where people can actually say how they feel, and we have leaders in business that understand and are emotionally intelligent themselves, then that will create or foster that openness, that vulnerability. And I think, you know, a lot of people that I talked to that don't understand that they don't maybe know anybody directly that's been affected by addiction, which is very rare, because at some events, when they ask people, you know, who here has been touched by addiction, a lot of people put up their hands. But, you know, I still have people once in a while that I meet, that haven't really experienced anybody that they really love that has gone through this, having that compassion and that empathy. Because, you know, I mean, I've had people say, you know, why, why, why do you drink so much? Why can't you stop? Why can't you just have one glass of wine? And it's hard to explain, because they don't like my partner has maybe one alcoholic drink a month, and it still baffles me. Right. But, you know, I think if they can change the culture in the workplace, to having events that don't always have to involve alcohol and understanding it more, I think that's, you know, if you don't know anybody that's had it, right, you're I know, lots of people will look at people who are homeless and say, Oh, that bomb. And like, we're trying to teach our kids that when you look at someone, there's a story behind that person, right? You can't just judge right away, you have to have empathy. And maybe there's something else at play here. So I think really educating people as well, in the workforce of what it's like, you know, because I'm sure that somebody who is judgmental about it Ratan right now and believes that stigma, if they're their husband, their wife, their kids, they developed addiction, or they became an addict or an alcoholic, I'm sure their perception would change, because now it's affecting them directly. And I think we we only take the time to understand when we're in that, that, you know, oh, no, now it's affecting me directly, but we have to be proactive.

Leighann Lovely 32:47

Right, and, and the number of people and I've argued this with, you know, other other podcasts, you know, we talk about mental, it being a mental health, you know, thing being a mental health issue. You know, we talk about neuro diversity. So, everything's falling into now, you know, under the, the, are you neurodiverse, or, you know, there's all of these different things now that are following falling under that category. And I think statistically, that, you know, the amount of people that they say, who are now considered to be neurodiverse was like, it was a really low number. And I truly believe that that number of people who fought would fall in the bucket of being neurodiverse shouldn't it is like, probably like 70% of the population. And the only reason that the studies are so off because they think it was like 30%, or something. The only reason that that number is off is because most of Americans do not disclose in any way. Because if you truly think about it, and I have these conversations all the time, and I because I'm so open about the fact that I have bipolar disorder, I had an uncle who died of alcoholism. I have, you know, alcoholism throughout my entire family. I know, I have a dear friend of mine, whose partner is an alcoholic. I I also live in Milwaukee, like the capital drinking state of the world, where we have fests that are all about beer. It's so it's where I grew up, you know, there's the joke that if you know, if you have we went to college, you probably have an OWI it's not really a joke. It's, it's sad. That you know, we I grew up in a in a place where it's just it was so normal that the adults around you were drinking a beer and by the time you were 12, you probably have the taste of you know, alcohol by that time. You had a point. Anyways, neurodiverse. It's if everybody disclosed, it, that number would be like, we would be the majority.

Lane Kennedy 35:13

It's just people don't out of fear out of, I think there's a lack of awareness of what, what neurodivergent means. I mean, I have a 13 year old who is not neurodivergent, I had no idea what that meant, right? Until I went through this process of learning and understanding what is happening to him. And I would have never gone through that if I was not, you know, having carrying a kid or wasn't curious. Like a lot of people and resources, I have the resources to go down that path and to discover what was happening, right, people are kind of, like, in their own little box in their own little worlds. You know, we're becoming the loneliest nation in the world right now. And, um, tomorrow, again, I'm speaking about the US. And it's a sad we're at, we're kind of in a sad state right now. You know, and so people who are suffering from neuro divergence, or who see the world a little bit differently, you know, it's a time for us to come together and build start building community, start building connection with others. And that's one of the greatest gifts of recovery is that we have recovery communities, you know, there's Buddhist recovery, there's yoga recovery, there's 12, step recovery, there's all types of different recovery, where we can go find support and be in community and not isolation, because neuro divergence, right? It's a little tiny box, whether you're suffering from autism, I had a client last year, you know, we through working together, we figured out that she has, she's autistic. And she was like, Oh, my God, this is so I'm so relieved. Right? And then she was able to get into her a community. And she's just grown as a human being. I mean, it's incredible what's happened. So it's like, saying, you know, questioning, like, what's going on with me? Like, I'm a little bit different, I see the world a little bit differently, and then talking, opening up and talking to others about that. So you can start to find your people, so to speak. You know, that is like, where we need to start healing, not only in the workplace, but in our own neighborhoods, right, our own schools, our own our own cities, we have to start connecting

Leighann Lovely 37:37

The problem. One is that it's your right, we don't openly talk about it enough. But and, again, this is a US thing. Sorry. The medical medical institutes have made it so difficult. Yeah. Yeah, to get the help that you need. Yeah. I mean, I call and I make an appointment. And I'm like, you know, having a really bad headache, and it's been consistent and consistent. And the doctor literally walks in and goes, Okay, so you're having headaches? Okay, well, here, I can probably give you a prescription for blah, blah, blah, anything else? And I'm like, no, no, wait a second, I want to know why. I don't want to put a bandaid on it, and take a medication for it. I want the why.

Lane Kennedy 38:27

So that we can they don't know, they don't know that, right?

Leighann Lovely 38:31

We're not treating, we're not treating the problem. We're treating the symptoms. And that has become like, that is a problem. When we just constantly throw medication or throw a, you know, well, if you do this or do that. That falls on our Medical Institute, who basically is overbooking because the more patients they see, the more they get paid, which means that doctors are not spending time with their patients at all. Right? Not to mention insurance companies are driving who you're allowed to see. So I've had to switch doctors like five times. So they don't know me. They don't know my medical history. And regardless of whether or not they helped me, I have to pay them. So I don't get to say, Yeah, this was a really shitty oil change. I'm not paying you. Well, you know what I mean? So I had to get a new psychiatrist because I'm on meds for my bipolar. I didn't like him. So I said, and again, nothing against him. He was a really brilliant person just didn't jive with my personality. I I called and I said, you know, I'm not going to make another appointment. I would like to request a different doctor. They got all upset. Well, what do you mean? No, you need to get his permission to get a different doctor. I said, Why would I need his permission to request a different doctor? What is wrong with our? I mean, come on, why? Why? I'm like, why, why? And then he explained to me, well, we don't want somebody, you know, seeking out medicine or Dr. Jumping. I'm like, okay, I get that. But the answer is simple. I don't like him. Well, we still have to get his permission. So then they have to go back to him and say, well, she doesn't really like you.

Lane Kennedy 40:38

Yeah, the system is broken, the system is broken. It's really broken here in the States, Canada, not as broken.

Tamar Medford 40:45

It is it is still broken. But not quite as badly. Yes, I will. Second.

Lane Kennedy 40:50

Yeah. I think being an advocate, right, we all have to advocate for ourselves. And if we're not doing that, then we're part of the problem. So again, I just go back to we have to stand up, we have to connect with others, we have to start telling the truth, even if we're super afraid of it. Like, I have to tell the truth today. Otherwise, I am doomed to a life of isolation. Forget it. Forget it. Yeah.

Tamar Medford 41:21

Yeah. And I feel that there needs to be more resources. For people I mean, here. It there's such a lot like it's such a long waitlist to get in to go see a doctor for you know, an MRI or something like that, or, like example is one of the girls needs a new psychologist while on a waitlist, it's been eight months. And so they're not getting the help or support that they need. And there's so many people out there and kids, especially, you know, so when it comes to addiction, like they're not getting the help they need, what do you think they're going to turn to, they're gonna go to school, their friends, gonna give them, you know, some alcoholic beverage, and they're gonna say, Oh, this makes me feel better. And there we go. And you know, the science says, if you start drinking before the age of 21, you know, one in four people will develop a substance abuse issue, if you hold off till after 21. It's one and 25. And so, you know, if you just look at that alone, the lack of resources for people out there right now, like we have to start being more proactive.

Leighann Lovely 42:30

I did not know that statistic. That's Wow.

Lane Kennedy 42:37

Yeah, it's stunning, right? It's really, really stunning. That's why I think that's why Tamar and I talk so much to moms and, you know, we laugh about our recovery, you know, laughing without liquor. It's fun, it's upbeat. We're talking about real subject matter. But we talk about our kids. You know, I have a 13 year old and if I had to talk to him about fentanyl, I had to talk to him about drugs. You know, this is the world that we live today. But because I'm in recovery, which is awesome. Right? I have that capacity. When I was drinking and using. I just didn't have it. I just couldn't, I would have never been able to.

Leighann Lovely 43:16

So what about about legalizing marijuana?

Lane Kennedy 43:24

Tamar? What about legalizing cocaine

Tamar Medford 43:27

Yeah, Canada here talk about

Leighann Lovely 43:31

I'm sorry, Canada.

Tamar Medford 43:34

They have decriminalized criminalized it. So of course, just like when marijuana was decriminalized up here before it actually became legal. There was these little shops that started popping up. And so I have heard that there's a couple shops now that they're actually selling cocaine, they're not supposed to be because you can't, you know, you can't. It's when you get arrested with a small amount. It's not as big of a deal, but it's insane. And the whole marrow. It yeah, there's an author called Judy, Judy gazelle. And she wrote a book the experience in neuroscience of addiction. And she actually, I had interviewed her for my Summit, and she talks about marijuana being the most addictive drug because it's the only drug that lights up every part of your brain and you know, we have 218 year old twins, one of them who they're both neurodivergent but one who's cognitively at a 1012 year old level. She has her friends telling her no just smoke this joint like marijuana is not harmful for you. In fact, hemp is healthy well maybe the hemp part is the you know, the THC part is not and it's no wonder why everything just seems better when you smoke a joint so I don't. I'm kind of it's hard to talk to that. Because for me personally as someone who is addicted to a lot even chicken strips Lee I'm so don't feel bad about your tea last year was chicken strips for me. You know, it's it's hard to, you know, legalizing marijuana I just I feel like people need again to be educated more. Right.

Lane Kennedy 45:15

And for marijuana there is a gene that if it's sideways, you know, you're going to be more addicted to it. Some people have that and they can smoke and they're like, I don't want it. Right.

Leighann Lovely 45:28

Well, and, you know, the the impact that that has to, to businesses, you know, I've seen it obviously being on the HR side being on the staffing side. How is that affecting companies, and what I have seen now is that they are no longer testing for marijuana, which means that it's more likely that somebody's going to come in intoxicated. And you can't test to see if they are intoxicated at that moment, or if they smoked it two days ago. So that's another controversial, you know, thing that, of course, is been popping up, despite the, you know, the unknowns about what it could or could not do to one's body or to children's brains. You know, we talked about the the implication of a child smoking that before their, you know, certain age or drinking before a certain age, what are the implications of a child smoking something that could alter their brain chemistry before a certain age, or just alter the brain chemistry. For at any age, you know.

Lane Kennedy 46:46

The body is this big chemistry, right? It's a factory, right? And we're putting things into it, we have this beautiful set of DNA, that is going to work. And remember, the environment and what we put in, are going to be affecting all of that DNA all the time. So if you're a child, and you're smoking, if you're an adult, and you're smoking, right, you're affecting the chemistry of your body, which then affects your mood, it affects your sleep, it affects your weight, it affects your relationships, right? It affects everything. So and I don't think this is where the education part comes in. Right? We don't talk about our body and the chemistry and what we eat, we just say eat a fruit, drink some milk, eat a sandwich, right? Nobody talks about our, you know, what, how the body operates. So I think we're doing a huge disservice for our children, you know, in school, by not educating them properly about how the human body operates, and what's needed for it to properly work, you know, all the mental illness that we have in the world right now. We don't it's, it's, it's because we're not feeding the body properly. 100% with that, so 100%

Leighann Lovely 48:02

And I also, I've been one of those people who, you know, here's my little conspiracy theorists theory. So. So, since I've been young, I've been on one type of medication, you know, as a young young child, they're like, Oh, she suffers from depression. And they were feeding me antidepressants, which probably was swinging into a manic episode and Yeti anyways. So, I, at one time write about our water filtration systems, the water that goes into our home, right? Yeah. So they regularly update those filtration systems to try to get rid of, you know, all of the stuff that goes into the water in the ground, or, you know, into the ground and blah, blah, blah. But here's, here's something that they don't, and can't possibly keep up on. All of these new drugs that all of these pharmaceutical companies are constantly producing and making when somebody doesn't use all of those drugs, and they decide, oh, here, I'm gonna flush them down the toilet, which regularly happens even though the drug companies are like, don't do that. Bring them back to us. While it's irritating, I'm just gonna flush them down the toilet, it still happens. We're still or they get somehow into a landfill and that's ended up ends up back in our Okay. Now I'm drinking the water which is filled with all these antibiotics and all of these other psychotropics and all of these other drugs. That is changing our brain chemistry 100% How is that not partially the cause of the rise in the amount of people who have mental health issues who have all persons other issues? The same thing with why is it seemed like everybody is taller than me? All of these kids are popping out that are way taller than me. I don't know what they're feeding these animals hormones. I don't know. That's my conspiracy therary.

Lane Kennedy 49:59

Oh, it's so great. So a lot of times I will I want to work with client, I will just have them go to the Environmental Working Group, right, and they can put in their zip code. And they can look at their water and see what's in their water. And a lot of times the water is 100% toxic, and they graded A through F, what kind of toxicity to your point about the medications. All of it's in there, if there's construction going on in the city, which here I live in San Francisco, there's a lot of construction here. So there's a lot of runoff down into the sewage, right? There's, there's a lot. So I always suggest that people, you know, get filter, osmosis, right? Just do it. Because our skin is our biggest organ, we are taking in all those chemicals, which is going to be down regulating our beautiful blueprint, that DNA that I talked about earlier, you know, and I don't want my kids suffering, right? I don't I don't want my neighbor suffering. I don't want my friends don't want you guys suffering, right. So just do yourself a favor, to Leon's point, go over to the environment in Ew, g.org. And you can just plug in and check out it's a free resource. You don't have to pay anything. But you can just educate yourself. On you know, empowerment Knowledge is power when it comes to our own being it's advocating for yourself. Yeah, I'm really passionate about that.

Leighann Lovely 51:19

Yeah. Oh, I can hear it in your voice. So we are coming to time. I'm looking at the clock. And we are actually at time and I want to respect your time. So I have a question of the season. No, to have both of you jump on that. What would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role, if you could?

Lane Kennedy 51:42

Well, that's a good question.

Tamar Medford 51:44

I feel like I've just finally landed in a career over the last couple of years, that completely fulfills me. And it's because they give us the time we need, you know, we work four day workweeks, because that gives us back some control of our time. If there's personal issues, they give us the time, we need to deal with those issues. And they ask Are you okay? So I would say I've never really had it to this degree before. But if if that was if I wasn't getting that that's definitely what I need. But I didn't realize I needed it until I started getting it. So I hope that answers your question.

Leighann Lovely 52:25

Absolutely. That's awesome.

Lane Kennedy 52:27

I need you to repeat it. Yeah, I need you to repeat the question again, because I'm mulling it around.

Leighann Lovely 52:32

So what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your, in your role your job, If you could do?

Lane Kennedy 52:42

Nothing? That's beautiful. Yeah, nothing. I'm super grateful for what I do and, and how I show up in the world and how the people around me are able to show up. Yeah, and that's what I want for others, you know, is I want people to show up and be their best self and to live in their bodies and feel comfortable and safe. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 53:05

When you get to a point where you can say that, you know, that you've, you know, that you've 100% I mean, I I think there are a few people out there that that can can truly say nothing and but that is the that's the goal, right to to find your you know, find your place to find your happy spot to be fulfilled. So that's awesome. If I'm, If my guess or my guess, is I'm just not on the ball today. If my audience would like to reach out to you how would they go about doing that?

Tamar Medford 53:51

The easiest way is without liquor. I love it when Lane sings it.

Lane Kennedy 53:57

That's laughingwithoutliquor.com, Laughing without liquor, on social on the website. That's really the best place laughing without liquor or lanekennedy.com, for me. Tamar?

Tamar Medford 54:14

Laughing without Liquor

Leighann Lovely 54:16

Awesome. Awesome. Thank you ladies. This has been such a fun conversation. I really enjoy it.

Lane Kennedy 54:22

Thanks so much for having us.

Tamar Medford 54:24

Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 54:26

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

addiction, alcoholic, recovery, life, drinking, day, alcoholism, tamar, drink, suffering, alcohol, years, marijuana, people, drugs, change, talk, give, stigma, sober

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Mark Schneider is a true "Do and I Do", not "Do and I Say", kind of owner. He leads by example so that all the people that work at his company understand that they are there for a common purpose. To get the job done well and on time for their customers while still making it home on time to be with their families. We can all learn a little from this amazing conversation.

Contact Mark

LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-schneider-39906a19/

Phone Number – 262-784-1010

Website – www.osccinc.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Mark Schneider 02:10

Well, thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 02:14

So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Mark Schneider 02:19

Well, my name is Mark Schneider, I am the owner of one source construction. We are a commercial general contractor located in Brookfield, and we've been in business coming up on 17 years, I have been in the industry for over 34. And we provide construction services to all things commercial, whether it be retail, restaurant, offices, warehouses, pretty much everything in that realm. And we handle all southeastern Wisconsin from the border up to Fond du Lac from the lake all the way out to to Madison.

Leighann Lovely 02:58

Awesome. And I love you. And I've had the opportunity to talk actually multiple times. And the reason that I'm so drawn to you is because unlike a lot of business owners, you you are very intentional, about a couple of things that just are wildly interesting to me. One, the size of projects you bring on the size of your business, and the way that you run your business. And so I want to dive into a little bit, you know, of each, each piece, and each one of these things, has really created the company that you are today. You know, as a business owner, obviously, you wear a lot of hats, right?

Mark Schneider 03:51

Yes, that is true. The one thing

Leighann Lovely 03:53

that I'm interested is your your approach when you're hiring people and driving them, you know, to to be interested in your company. So let's, let's start, let's start there. How do you how do you create, you know, interest or buzz about, you know, working for you?

Mark Schneider 04:15

Well, let me let me back up a little bit. So you have a foundation for why it is the way it is. So 16 years ago when I was nudged by a good client of mine to start the company. One of the factors that played into this was that I had five children under the age of 12. And I wanted to still make sure that I would have time to be with them even though I was going to start a business run a business. And so the premise of everything is making sure that myself and my employees can get home and get a good time for dinner and to be able to leave and go be with their family during the day if need be. So let's say they're two I'll have some program happening at school, they'd be allowed to leave and go be with their, their child for their program. Yeah, maybe they come back later, maybe they don't whatever, at the end of the day, we all know we have to get our work done. But our office typically is a ghost town about 515. And that's great. The pause in the show earlier was that I just, I'm currently looking for an additional site superintendent, and it doesn't say, you know, on my invite or my job posting, it doesn't say, General Superintendent, do you know, position open? You know, it says, Do you want to get home at night for dinner with your family? Do you want to, you know, have more free time and not have the stress of being overworked? It was the things that were important to me were top on the list, because second or third down on the list was, Do you know how to do this type of work? So the first part was, what are your goals? We all need to make money. And that's understandable. However, I wanted to be able to capture the people that had family as as more important than money, that family was something that they could work, you know, work towards, instead of you don't want to, what does it work, you don't want to work to live, you want to live, I'm sorry. To get it wrong. You want to you want to be able to live life and work is secondary, necessary. But secondary,

Leighann Lovely 06:33

Right, you don't want to live to work, you want to work to live,

Mark Schneider 06:37

Correct. And so that is that's been very important to us all along, to try very hard to keep that. It's not, it's, it's not uncommon for my employees to say, hey, I want to take off Tuesday, and I'd like to go to the bureau game in the afternoon or whatever. And basically, it's like we can we'll work that out, well, you got going on, I'll cover for you or somebody will cover for you. And that happens on and off throughout the year with various things.

Leighann Lovely 07:09

So let me let me stop. Let me stop you for a second. Because what a novel idea 17 years ago? Yes. So what a novel idea. 17 years ago, somebody starts their business and says, Hey, let's create a business that caters to the individuals who want to actually have family life, above and beyond a work life, which is what everybody wants. Now everybody's talking about it. I mean, not to say that people didn't want it back then. But now everybody's talking about it. Now. You were already there. 17 years ago.

Mark Schneider 07:49

Yeah, it's you know, and it's a work in progress. Always. I would say over the course of a given year, there's probably 10 times 10 days of the year that maybe I'm working until about six o'clock. And I know that that's in my former place of work, which I really liked. It was not uncommon for me to be there till seven 730 on a somewhat regular basis. And that was a bummer, because I still had we still have the children at home. But my wife did a fantastic job, you know, helping take care of them. And and that maybe it stems from hers. In my personal life. We had decided years ago once we had three kids in daycare, and daycare was not really the right method for us. And she was working just to go to just to pay for daycare. So that didn't make sense. But that was a decision we made. And of course, there were tough times, but we worked through it to do our own thing. So it's a culture that I continually am trying to improve on. I'm not perfect. The employees will tell you what I've explained to you. But they'll also say, yeah, there's times where we're working a little harder here there. But nobody, I will say nobody works late into the day. But do they get called on a Saturday maybe to check on something that's kind of the life of a superintendent that happens from time to time. I, as the owner get called all the time whenever I'll address it, but I don't generally jump in the car and go somewhere. But that's the life of a business owner

Leighann Lovely 09:24

Right now here. Let me explain. Let me tell you a story. When I was 16 years old, I was working at a gas station. It was Thanksgiving. I was the the top employee at the time and the owner of the gas station called me on Thanksgiving and said the employees there can't figure out how to close the store up. Can you go in and they looked at my dad and I said well what should I do and he goes, You're a hourly paid employee I was making $4.18 $4.18 And he goes you are not going anywhere. or, and I'm like, well, but but the owner of the store is calling me telling me that he needs me to go in. And he goes, Yeah, because he doesn't want to leave his Thanksgiving dinner. Because, you know, nobody wants to have to do those. Now, my dad would not allow me to do it. I was 16 years old. Right? And so he figured, oh, let's call the 16 year old who knows how to do all of the operations? You know? Well, not all of the average. But I did all of the, you know, cash, cash drawer checkouts, I did all of the at 16. Right. You know, even you know, the owners don't want to do it. If you have somebody to delegate it to. That's great. But it is such as the life of an owner that if nobody else can do it, who do you call?

Mark Schneider 10:50

Well, the other the other side of that, too, is it this is what I do. I lead by example, if if if I'm walking around a jobsite, whether I'm wearing nice clothes or not, if I see something that needs to be picked up, or get a broom, or do something to make it safer, or just cleaner or present better to the customer, my superintendents know that I will do it, I will jump in and help out no matter what I'm dressed in, because they know well, he owns a company. So he just does it. So now that means there's nothing to there's nothing to nothing below me, I guess I'm trying to think in the right terms. But I will do whatever whatever it takes to do it properly and put the customer first.

Leighann Lovely 11:32

And there's never any pointing fingers of well, that's not my job. There's never anybody who who can possibly say at any point, will you go and do that, because it's not my job. You know, and when you create a mentality of employees, who basically at any given time, are all willing to pitch in and do whatever it takes to make the job get done, and get done well, because the owner is the person who's showing by example, are leading by example. That's an extremely powerful force. Because I've walked around manufacturing floors, I've walked around businesses of all different kinds. When those individuals, they look at the owner as an untouchable, they look at the owner, as somebody who comes in walks around once a month or every quarter, you know, and they're in a suit, they walk around, they don't know the employees names, they don't know anything about anybody who works for them. And every time that person walks around, they feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like, is he scoping me out? Like what what's going on? Why is he Why is he walking the floor, and it becomes almost uncomfortable, I guess is the only is the only reward and when that when that person is not engaged, when that person doesn't know what's going on. There's there's not a sense of camaraderie, as much so as if the owner is willing to walk around and do what needs to be done just like any other employee.

Mark Schneider 12:53

So, so yes, Leighann, we were talking about, you know, management or business owners that appear to be unapproachable or feel that employees feel that they're unapproachable. And that's another caveat to our company, is that I've got a relationship where my employees, at least I believe they do, and I know one of them has told me to my face, that they're able to tell me what they're thinking without worry about repercussions, they want to tell me, hey, they're gonna call me out, I'm doing this wrong, or I could do this better. So both of us, you know, have this, we'll have our little discussion. And then we move on and, and it's he's been nine or 11 years, this particular employee, so he's been around long enough that we're comfortable. And I hired him out of the construction industry, but the residential side. So we've been, he's been learning from us all along. And he's gotten, he's one of my senior guys now. And so that's, I think, a part of the culture that makes a big difference, not just for the family, but that your employees are actually they work with me, I don't, I don't introduce people as somebody who works for me. And a boss of mine years ago, had introduced me that way. And it stuck with me for oh, gosh, an hour, probably on 23 years that, you know, my employees don't work for me, they work with me. And, you know, at the end of the day, maybe I'm the one that has to sign something, but they still work with me. They do they do everything that that I do. So, that's a big part of the culture.

Leighann Lovely 14:33

And it's interesting that you say that because I made that mistake early on in my career where and I meant it in no disrespect, but, you know, with being a salesperson, you know, I had recruiters whom I worked with, and I made the mistake of saying, Oh, I'm going to pass you on to my recruiter, which is possessive. Like as in my recruiter, and what I didn't mean as in mind that I owned that I in any way A, but it was taken in a, in a negative sense from the person from the recruiter. So I very quickly realized, wow, I shouldn't do that, that's, it's inappropriate, because I have no owners we are equals. And by saying mine, I'm putting myself above them. Right. So quickly change that language from mine to, you know, my partner, or to just make sure that I'm putting them at the same level as me. So that there's no ownership, you know, I'm going to do introduce you to my partner, versus, you know, calling that, and therefore, it's, you know, again, just switching a word from recruiter to partner, partner is then an equal

Mark Schneider 15:55

Well, and you can say, recruiter I worked with, you know, a lot of it has to do with respect, I run into many, many, many different people in what I do, from, you know, the business owners, who, you know, maybe they earned a little more, but they get a little more respect from me, then, I don't know that what I'm trying to say is, they're the same as you and I, it's just that they've accomplished a little more, sometimes a lot more, you know, but, you know, I ran into judge lift skis, the CEO of Northwestern Mutual, his kids go to the high school that my kids went to, and he was at an event and I said, Hi, and everything. So I didn't treat him like, Oh, he's something special, but he's in charge of a very large company, you know, and he's done fantastic things and all of that. But at the end of the day, I have a company that does, you know, between eight and $10 million a year, he Okay, his does a billion dollars a year, but we still each run a company that is multimillion, for him his case, billion, but, and he's a very down to earth guy. And the cool thing is, I say this a lot about certain honors, you'd never know that he is in charge of so much, because he doesn't carry himself any different. He carries himself just like you and I. And that's what I try to do. I don't try to walk around, I drive a truck that's nine years old. You know, my employees have some vehicles that are newer than mine. That's okay. I, you know, I'm not I don't want to be the showy guy that shows up in the Mercedes, because that's not what it's about. And that's, that's kind of, I think, done well for me in the past, and I'm just not, I don't do things, I don't earn money for things I earn money for my family, or to be able to do an experience with my family is kind of how it's evolved. And so I went to a coach, business coach one time, and they were touting how, you know, you could fly a helicopter to work every day, if you do this, and this and this. And I said, I don't care about that. That's not what I'm, that's not me. So we got to come up with some different motivating factor, because we flying it on a helicopter to work every day is not what I care about. So that's, that's what that's that's the work in progress for the culture. That's a work in progress for how I wanted to be a business owner, a boss, and it's very challenging. HR is one of my least favorite things to do, but I'm trying to get better at it. Go ahead. It's one

Leighann Lovely 18:34

of your least favorite things to do. And you're doing it as well as you are. And I'm not saying about the like the technical stuff when it comes to we're not talking about that I'm talking about the people leader thing. There are people leaders out there who are not doing it as well as you. And again, I'm not bashing anybody, you have a team of six,

Mark Schneider 18:54

Simply have six people right now I'm trying to hire seven.

Leighann Lovely 18:58

You have a team of six. And the way that you describe your people leader skills is far above the way that others that are people leaders, and coin themselves people people lead hers, do it. Because you you and I don't want to say humility. I don't know your you know, I don't know your full backstory, but I believe that people who have come from nothing, starting your own business from the ground up and building it to success and having it where you want it to be. And, you know, continuing to nurture that gives you a you know, not you I'm speaking in terms of but most people gives them this this humbleness of, yeah, I created this. And, you know, most business owners know what that struggle look like in the book. Beginning because most people, it wasn't just handed to them, there's a struggle that goes along with the first year, the first six months, the first two years, the first, what they say, when you hit the five year mark that you can usually breathe a little bit lighter. But I've also seen companies that have been in business for 30 years, have to close their doors. So I do believe that most business owners have a little bit of humbleness, that they usually keep at bay when in front of people because of, but you clearly have that you have a humbleness, you don't drive the fancy car, you don't show up saying, Hey, I'm a business owner, you know, you you introduce people, as as partners as people I work with, not as my employee. That's that humbleness that makes you human, that makes people want to talk to you that makes people want to work with you, that many of those others that can throw around, not that you can't, but that can throw around a ton of money. And people think, oh, I want to be friends with that guy, because he has so much money. But in reality, and I'm not saying everybody, in reality, are they really great people, if they're just throwing tons of cash at everybody and showing up in fancy cars, a lot of them that have to do that are not great people. Some of them

Mark Schneider 21:28

I have seen that too, through the years,

Leighann Lovely 21:31

Some of them can outright be assholes. And the reason that they have a following is because they buy people that give the give stuff away to people. And people are like, Oh, I'm gonna go and be friends with that guy. And or gal shouldn't just say, guy, you know, and that's the way they get their following. That's the way that they continue to stay. You relevance. But then there's the ones that truly care. And they don't need to fight to stay relevant. They stay relevant, because they're good people. And obviously, you have to have a successful business and all I mean, there's, there's other things that you have to do other than just be

Mark Schneider 22:13

more, right still have to do the work, right.

Leighann Lovely 22:17

But I mean, and unfortunately, the ones that are, you know, kind of fall in the asphalt, they're going to be a flash in the pan, eventually, you know, they're, they're going to, they're going to drift away. And when they're no longer out there throwing your own money doing the flashy things, people will start to forget about them. But the greats the ones that will remain as the legends are the ones that one did the great work, to actually made a difference in people's lives by being great people, and caring. Those are the ones that will be known as, you know, their names will be remembered years after they left the industry as being somebody who Oh, man, I worked with that, you know, that company, the owner of that company was not only did he do great work, he was just such a great guy to work with, you know, I Oh, yeah. You know, and I've met those people. I've met people whose names you still mention, and they're, and I hear people go, Oh, I remember that person. Didn't they retire like five years ago? Yeah, yep, they did. And that I would, I would hope that we would all aspire to be or run a business, where you're remembered for doing that not remembered for, you know, blowing through employees.

Mark Schneider 23:32

And we have long said, you know, and I worked one of my employees that's been here. For years now. I worked with him for seven years at a previous company. And then he retired and I pulled him out of retirement to come work with me. And for all the years that I've worked with him, we've always kind of gone by the mantra if you do the right thing, you do what's right for the customer, that the the money and everything else will follow. It just will. And so we've gotten our our partners or vendors in construction to think the same thing. If they see something that doesn't look right, tell us because at the end of the day, we'll make it right, we'll let the owner know that, you know, we've made it right. And it'll come back around even if it doesn't come back around on that project. It'll come back around because he'll tell somebody else about us. He'll tell somebody what we did. And so that kind of goes it's even the golden rule to treat people how you want to be treated while somebody is doing a project for me. I'd love it if they would tell me if I'm doing something that's not quite right or whatever, for the betterment of the project. Don't just try to go I'm gonna make an extra 50 bucks this you know, this this job and I'll make more money great. I get to have 10 bucks in my pocket as part of my bonus. i Our guys are not compensated by how much money the job makes, they're compensated for doing the right thing. And so I try to really take care of them at the end of each year. When we're doing profit sharing and things like that, to say, you know, thank you, if I made $1, I'm making sure that they get something to because I'm if I if they made me $1, I wouldn't have had that dollar without them. So that once again is, you know, that's the they're helping me. So I really want to take care of

Leighann Lovely 25:19

You just use sparked a story here. So I have a plumber that they've told me multiple times I need to find a new plumber, because I'm outside of their service area. I was inside their Soviet service area in the last house that I that I lived at. And every time I call them, they're like, you know, he really outside of our service area really should find somebody new. And I'm like, I don't want to find somebody. I don't want to find a new plumber, like I like you guys. And oh, and their plumbing and electric. And so the reason that I go back to them, it's It's shrimp plumbing, okay. It was started by the by the father, who's now I think he's fully retired, he might be fully retired, anyways. And then he had a son, two sons, one was the electrician, and one was the plumber. And I, I've called him multiple times, where I'll say, Hey, I've got this issue going on. And he's like, Oh, that's your what I have a well, in my home. He's like, it sounds like it's your well. And he ended up spending an hour on the phone with me an hour, troubleshooting the issue to figure out that it was my Well, which they don't do work on. They don't do plumbing on wells they so then he gave me a referral. And then he said says to me, call me back. Because I'm really interested in what exactly is wrong with your well. And I just I just want to know what a curiosity. But the fact that for free, for free. This man spent an hour troubleshooting all of these issues on the phone with me to determine that it was not my plumbing. It was in fact, my well then gave me a referral. And he did this with me twice. After I had bought my new house, I'd called now, this is going wrong. It's insane. No other plumber that I know of.

Mark Schneider 27:14

No, you wouldn't have gotten past the receptionist. Correct.

Leighann Lovely 27:17

They would have been like, Okay, we're gonna schedule a service call, it's gonna cost you 75 bucks just for them to drive to your house and probably 150 Now, just for them to drive to your house. They are outside of my service area, and don't charge or haven't church. Maybe that's because of a past client. But haven't charged me extra for coming to my house, when they've done some plumbing and electrical work for me. And they still continue to tell me that we're gonna electrician. But, and that's why I won't call anybody else. That is the kind of service. And that's why I'm shameless ly plugging their company. Because that's the kind of service that lives on forever in my head. When anybody ever asks me, Hey, do you need a plumber? Or do you know a plumber or an electrician? I'm like, Yep, I do. I do. I do you. Where do you live? I absolutely 100% I'm like, Yeah, this this guy is he's awesome. And the sons I've met both of the sons, they're awesome. And they don't overcharge, they charge. You know what they should, and I don't mind paying, you know, a decent amount for their service, because they come in, they do a good job. They're personable. And that's what that's what it's all about when you go to your clients, your end. And I had an issue in my own home where the guy was, did things himself and they came in and they said, Yeah, this is not the code. Like if I touch it, it's going to cost you three grand. Oh, don't touch it. Right? I mean, those are the types of things that like, just do the right thing, do do the best for your client, be honest with your clients, and you will have a repeat client, and then that client will go out and be your salesperson.

Mark Schneider 29:12

So the hardest, the hardest part, not the hardest part, a difficult thing to instill and repeat is to get your employees to do that too. Because in a way they're selling but they don't realize it. And if you can get them to take care of the customer and do what's right. They don't even realize it, but they're creating more leads for you down the road. And in my industry. I mean, yeah, there's times where I can get a job in a month. But most of the stuff I do is three, four months of cultivating before they decide or think about it and other stuff that it could take, you know, years that I've just stayed in touch and all of a sudden it was the right time and they're going to add on to their company or they're going to do whatever they're going to do and And then they call me. So it's part of it is trying to keep your company at front of brain. That's why we all do marketing and networking and things like that. Because you know, you're not going to get a job at that marketing event, you're going to get a job, because they thought of you or saw you a month ago and said, Oh, yeah, I saw you know, Liane color. So, you know, that goes back to the culture, you will take care of them, they'll take care of you, they'll take care of the company, which is kind of like taking care of you. And, and that's, you know, that's always served me well, even as an employee all those years prior to starting the company. I did what was right. And, and, and didn't, I did have an instance where I threw all them. 60 was like 75 bucks. And I'll never forget that little story that I, I unfortunately said, No, he owes me 75 bucks. And the owner said, you can send them the bill, go ahead and do that. But I'm gonna tell you that I think you'll regret it. And I was doing my job. So I sent the bill for 75 bucks. And he wrote a little note with the 75 bucks and said, I hope this makes your companies here. And the owner knew already that my honor had already kind of rearranged us. And I think they had talked and it was it was early on in my career. And that stuck with me too. And so there's those little things that you hope you take with you that helps you be a better person and and helps you to not worry about the little, little things. Look at the bigger picture. And sometimes unfortunately, some things do cost a lot of money, and there's just no way around it, I have to charge $300 For this lock is just what it costs, I can't do it for free, even though you can go to Menards and get a residential one for $39.

Leighann Lovely 31:48

Right. And, and that's wildly interesting that you brought that up, because it is really just as easy as it is to make a client extremely happy, and have them become a salesperson for you. It is just as easy for it to completely go the other way and have them all of the sudden be like, don't, don't ever use them. Because that has also happened to me. Yes. Where somebody has come to my home actually happened with my I have a generator of a permanent generator in my home. And I even called them and this kid walked kid me young. When did I come to an age where I'm calling 20 year olds kids. He comes to my home. And the first thing he says to me when he walks to the back of my house and looks at my generator is I've never seen a generator like this before. And you're gonna fix it.

Mark Schneider 32:44

Yeah, no, when you want to hear no confidence there,

Leighann Lovely 32:47

right? So two hours later when it's not fixed. And I get a bill for 250 bucks. And then they come back a second time. And they don't fix it again, and then try to charge me $575 I call them and I say I'm not paying this. Well, yeah, but he was out there. And I said, you're gonna haggle over $575 When you were out here twice, for five hours total, didn't fix it. And the first thing your technician said to me was I've never seen this generator. Well, and I'm like, Ah, I said, you know, it's been fixed by another guy who was here for 20 minutes, and charged me 175 bucks. And they're like, Oh, really. And then they wanted to know the name of the company that came in fixed it. And that's all they started caring about, well, who was it? Well, who came? I'm not telling you that. And then I had to actually call the maker of my generator and say, you know, XYZ company was here for x amount of time. They didn't fix it, do you? Is there a reason? You know, a reseller of this? Should I pay their bill? And they said no, I called the company back and said, You know, I've already contacted XYZ company. You're the reseller of them. Are you still going to charge me 575 bucks? I got an email from them saying we're really sorry about the misunderstanding. We will not be charging you. I'm like, Wow, all of that work. Right? You could have just simply said, Hey, we're really sorry about this. I could have been could have maintained a relationship with them, but because they pushed it.

Mark Schneider 34:40

You'll never call them and you'll never recommend them.

Leighann Lovely 34:43

I will absolutely positively. Never call never recommend. But I did you know talk to the kids supervisor and say it was not his fault. He was nice. He was polite. You sent him back a second time when he didn't Know the product? What is wrong with you? Yeah. Like this is

Mark Schneider 35:05

he was unqualified to look at it

Leighann Lovely 35:07

correct. And I told his manager, this is on you, you sent a guy who clearly told you in his notes that he didn't know the product, and you sent him back to my property to fix a product he had never used. Well, we do that for training on your dime on my right. And he even tried to upsell me on a new one.

Mark Schneider 35:31

Oh, geez.

Leighann Lovely 35:34

Right. And the guy who came and fixed it in an hour and a half or an hour or whatever, he was like, Oh, this thing's got years of life left.

Mark Schneider 35:45

There you go, right. So it does circle back around to culture, culture and the right people. And I've had, and I've had, I'm not perfect, I've had people come and work for me. And then they said, it's not a fit, and they've left. And that was, it was kind of good on both of us. He was, he was glad to leave. And I was glad that he left. And, you know, because we're a smaller company, I do kind of need people that are on their game, almost right away. It would be hard for me to take an intern that doesn't know anything under my wing, although I'd love to mentor somebody. And that might be what I do later in life. When I decide to sell the company or retire, whatever, I don't think I'll retire, I'll want to be a mentor to somebody to show them how to do this, how to do what I what I do. So

Leighann Lovely 36:40

that's awesome. That's absolutely awesome. So now you we've obviously talked a great deal about your culture and everything else. What about, you know, you and I talked a little bit about the size of the projects that you take on. And I think that leads a great deal into you being able to really maintain and being intentional about, about that. Because, you know, if you companies when they grow to a certain size, it is harder, obviously, as an owner to be able to intimately know each one of their employees, you know, I pick on these monster sized companies, and how dare the owner not be involved? Well, obviously, they have to step back, they're not able to be in the day to day every you know, all the time. And as you grow to even bigger at all.

Mark Schneider 37:30

Well, even even with six employees, there's times when they're not going to do it the way I would do it, even though when I started the company, I was doing everything. So you have to number one, allow them to do it their way to a degree to get to the end result. You know, we I purposely keep the company at a at a size between really five and $10 million, our end, but we've had some larger projects through the years we've had, we've done a grocery store development that was $7.2 million. Now that might sound like a lot, because he that's three quarters of your top volume of the entire company. But in construction, I'm doing virtually the same. I'm doing the same things for say $2 million project that I'm doing for a $7 million project, it's just that the pieces of the pie are bigger. If the electrician was doing $100,000 worth of work on that $2 million project, he's doing $800,000 worth of work on the $7 million dollar project. So I'm still dealing with one electrician. So but backing up here, I've made sure and sometimes there's some challenges to do this, that, okay, I'm not going to bid these couple of jobs because I don't want to grow so big that I lose touch and I lose the ability to have this culture, there's been a number of times where Oh, I could grow it to $20 million, then I'd have to, you know, of course, hire more people. And that's how that works. And then I have more people to manage. And then I have layers of management. And then I'm no longer really in touch with what's happening. And my former employers, there were projects where I did the whole entire project and the boss never showed up at all, I got all done at the end of the case to the to the future, the customer and he was happy and they moved in and I went on to the next job it was that's just how it was. Now, maybe my owner met with their owner behind the scenes and I didn't even know that that happened. But I know he never showed up on the job or anything like that. Because my superintendent and I would say we've never seen so and so was never here so so there's that challenge. You know, we talked about the guy from NML you know, he hasn't met all 5000 people and that company can't but you know, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't be nice and and the same kind of person that you know that I met when he didn't know me from Adam and I was one of three Are people from the local high school that was at an event that he was at? So, you know, I guess it's, it's stay yourself no matter what. And you pointed out, you know, being humble, if you're a business owner, that's probably the best thing you can do is to, you know, sir, sure, treat yourself but I tried to treat myself quietly or or, you know, I don't know, I don't know the right term, but just don't flaunt it if you have something, but I don't. But things have never been my thing. So there's nothing really for me to flaunt.

Leighann Lovely 40:36

You don't want to drive around in a in a Mercedes or No, How about how about a Yvette Corvette? No, does not

Mark Schneider 40:45

interest me in the least in the least. And I am starting to look at my next used car. Because

Leighann Lovely 40:53

they're just, they're just as expensive as, as new cars.

Mark Schneider 40:57

They are, I'm just having some I'm starting to have some mechanical issues. And I'm like, do I let them snowball into a big one? Or do I just, you know, upgrade to something a little newer, and so, so it's, you know, the size of the company, and like I said, when the employees help us, you know, maintain or, or get, get to a volume, that's wonderful. I also, another thing that I do is, I pay my employees, whether we're busy or slow, the busy part, maybe I'll throw it, but if we're slow, and I'm like, go home, be with your family, or work in the garage, or cut the grass or do whatever, I'm still gonna pay you because I value you all year round, whether we're busy or not. And so there's some times where maybe they're gonna work 50 hours a week, but then there's a lot of other times they're only working 38, or whatever. And that's fine. They've come to they've come to know that I will take care of them there isn't there isn't on the lay you off. And so that's something else. Yes, I'm taking money out of my pocket to say, you know, there's very few times that that has happened. But that's, that's what we've decided to do. No, we're going to take care of you no matter what. Because they still have expenses. And I know And with today's today's world, I know that they could they could get a job somewhere else. I know somebody would hire them. They're all great, great people, and I want to keep them. I want them to stay with me as long as they want to stay with me. That's great.

Leighann Lovely 42:31

That's great. So we are coming to time, and I have a question of the season. I hope you had the opportunity to look at that. So if you could change something about your job or the practice that people have in your role, what would that be?

Mark Schneider 42:50

Well, in my position, I'm wearing all the hats. I'm marketing I'm, well, I know marketing, I'm not I actually get help with marketing from from some people. HR is the one thing that I would love to change, I'd love to be better at remembering to remembering to not just think I think my employees often verbally, but I'd like to do more. And I'd like to do more of such as, hey, here's a gift certificate for you and your wife or family to go out to dinner. And so it probably comes in spurts. My employers might tell you, yeah, we don't hear anything from Mark and then all of a sudden, we'll get a gift card out of the blue. And hopefully that's a, that's a nice thing. So if there was one thing that I could change it would be to remember, and it's probably as easy as just putting something in the calendar, but I haven't done it to remember how to continually thank my employees for what they do. And, and make them understand that they are valued. That's probably the biggest thing. You know, I don't want to get into the complaining that I don't like HR, but

Leighann Lovely 43:59

well, you're, hey, you're not alone. You know, most people did not start a business to you know, have to do the, the HR stuff to have to do even the marketing the sales. Most people start a business because they love the thing that they do. Right.

Mark Schneider 44:21

Right. But I love construction. I love what I do. I love helping people get into their buildings. You know, I say you dream it and we'll build it. What do you what do you want to do? I help people with their dreams, all the different businesses that I have helped those people get into buildings, or spaces in a strip mall or whatever. Their dream was to have a club Pilates or to have a Dunkin Donuts or to have a nail salon or hair salon or all these different things that I've gotten in through the years. That was their dream and I was part of their dream, you know, and and many of them have refer me to their friends that were trying to have their dream to do. Yoga six down in Oak Creek. That was the latest one that we finished. I never thought you'd do yoga in 100 degree room with 40% humidity, but that's what she's got going and people love it. So

Leighann Lovely 45:18

I am not a big fan of sweating and being hot and

Mark Schneider 45:24

there's a lot of different fitness categories out there. You know, I'm going to be starting a rumble in Brookfield soon that that one's punching bags and barbells and things like that while somebody yells at you with music playing really loud.

Leighann Lovely 45:38

Is that Rachel? It is Rachel. So she recently was on my podcast talking about about Rambo. That is awesome. So you're helping her with is this location

Mark Schneider 45:50

to the Guitar Center on Blue Mountain Calhoun in Brookfield.

Leighann Lovely 45:54

Okay, so I thought she had one location built out or was that just a preview? I think that was a preview. Okay. All right. So she had some areas set up where she gets one,

Mark Schneider 46:03

but she's, I thought she was looking to do three eventually.

Leighann Lovely 46:06

Awesome. Yes, I think she is. Yep. She's gonna be expanding and awesome. Well, that'll be fun. I can't wait to see how that turns out when you're finished with that. Yeah. Well, Mark, if somebody wants to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Mark Schneider 46:21

So a couple of ways. One is to call us at 262-784-1010. The other way is to look us up on the web, of course, www, that all osccinc.com and then that'll have all our email addresses and everything on there free to find us and you'll be able to see a whole pile of pictures and descriptions of projects that we have done.

Leighann Lovely 46:48

Awesome. This has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today.

Mark Schneider 46:54

Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 46:56

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

employees, years, call, owner, company, business owner, work, business, brookfield, walk, starting, project, job, plumber, money, culture, humbleness, family, service, client

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There has been a great deal of negative social media about recruiters and how they work, I thought it would be a great time to bring together a couple of recruiters to talk about our industry and what we do. Join us for a great conversation about the world of candidates, recruitment, and how the industry continues to change and evolve.

Contact -

Morgan Sbabo - https://www.linkedin.com/in/morgan-sbabo-387a3b185/

Chenae Erkerd - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chenae-erkerd-j-d-racr-%E2%80%94-out-of-office-798b2389/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, business owners and operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started. I have a special treat for you today. On today's episode, I am bringing together two additional recruiters to talk alongside me who's also got the 20 years of experience in recruiting one way or another and I'm extremely excited about this conversation. I've got Chenae Erkerd, who earned her bachelor's degree from St. Augustine University, and juris doctorate degree from North Carolina Central University School of Law. After graduating Chenae decided to pivot into human resources to become a recruiter. She has recruiting experience in higher education, healthcare and big tech. along her journey. She has picked up tips and tricks that will help job seekers make their search easier. Chenae is committed to helping the community learn networking techniques to catch the eye of recruiters and hiring managers. Her goal is for everyone to win. She is originally from Camden, New Jersey, but currently resides in Durham, North Carolina with her husband, Terrence Erkerd, and their two dogs, Bain and Kodak. I'm also joined by Morgan suavo. She is a direct hire recruiter with 16 years of agency recruiting experience. She has filled entry level to C suite positions across every industry you can think of. She has dedicated her time to helping not only her clients to have the best experience but to make sure that her candidates become partners in creating their own success. She currently lives in California with her family but is looking to relocate to the Wisconsin area soon. She's a military spouse, mom of three and dog mom, welcome ladies, I am so excited to have this amazing conversation today. This has been a hot topic that you're seeing all over LinkedIn, Facebook, wherever you go, you see comments about recruiters comments about ghosting comments about my resume didn't get through because it got blocked by an AI bot that kicked me out. And I am so excited to welcome Morgan and Shinae to the conversation today. So why don't you start out by giving me a little bit about your background? Morgan, why don't you go first? Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Morgan Sbabo 03:34

Morgan Sbabo so I've been doing recruiting for about 16 years all agency. I didn't have a break where I did about six months of corporate recruiting and it just wasn't for me. So I do direct hire placement across the board. All industries right now I specialize in manufacturing. And I've done everything from skilled all the way up to the C suite level.

Leighann Lovely 03:58

Awesome. Chenae, why don't you tell me a little bit about our audience a little bit about, you know what you do?

Chenae Erkerd 04:05

Yeah, so my name is Chenae Erkerd, I been recruiting Now it's interesting, because when people say they've been in recruiting for like, 16 year old like a baby. So I've been in recruiting, I'm a recruiting baby. And I've officially been in recruiting now for four years, one month in about a week or so I'm not counting but you know, whatever. So I started in so I originally wanted to be an attorney, I pivoted from legal into higher education into recruiting pivoted again into healthcare, recruiting and now officially pivoted into big tech. Happy to be here.

Leighann Lovely 04:41

Awesome. And you are a baby because you know when you hit that 10 year mark, and you're still recruiting, you're you're you're a lifer. I think I've tried to leave recruiting. I've tried to leave the industry if Morgan's making a face at me But once you've made it a certain, a certain point, you know that you're going to become a lifer. It's one of those things that you just keep. And I've talked to many, many of my counterparts in the industry who have said, Oh, I'm leaving the industry. And then a year later they're back. It's it's just right, Morgan.

Morgan Sbabo 05:23

Yeah, I think for me, I was talking to my kids this morning, too. Sometimes it becomes like, recruiting is like an addiction, basically, like, you have your highs and your lows. And it's like, you know what I mean, it's an adrenaline rush. Sometimes when you got those candidates go in, and you're going through the whole process. So for me, it's kind of like I'm, I personally am addicted to recruiting like, I couldn't do anything else. I don't want to.

Chenae Erkerd 05:45

I love it.

Leighann Lovely 05:46

Yeah. It's, there's, there's one, the rush that goes with, yep, I'm going to fill this. And then the, the candidate that comes back at the end of the processes and says, Wow, this is, I love this job. Like, thank you so much for helping me. And a lot of people and I want I wanted to state that because some people think, Oh, well, why are you addicted? Is it the money? Is it the, but at the end of the day, for me personally, it's been the letters that people have written me, it's been the candidates who have come back and said, Wow, this is like my dream job. Thanks for hanging in there and helping me find a job. And, you know, that's personally why I've, why I've stayed in it.

Chenae Erkerd 06:36

Yeah, for me, it's been like, if you, when you make an offer it you can literally see the person's life change, like, right in that moment, you can see like, they have literally been on their last or they've had enough. And then you say, I want to make you an offer of this. And you completely see like, it changing, you can see the hope that they have in their future at that point is for me, as if nothing better.

Morgan Sbabo 07:05

One of my moments was I had a gentleman who I called and offered a position to him. And he said to his son, while he was on the phone, he was a single father. And he said, Go get your shoes on. I'm going, we're going to go buy you that toy. And it was like, that was that moment. Like, I wanted to cry, because I was just like, You know what I mean, that was that life changing moment. And I think for me, like I mean, as most recruiters who are in this for so long, that's just that's why we do it. Because we get to make that difference. Right?

Leighann Lovely 07:36

Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. So unfortunately, in the, you know, especially because of social media, and over the last couple of years, recruiters have been getting just kind of a bad rap and getting, you know, bombarded with this negativity around the idea that we don't either care, or that we're, you know, ghosting people or so I wanted to bring, you know, we all come from different kinds of different industries, right, you know, Morgan, you, you're in the staffing realm Shinae, your your corporate recruiter, myself, I'm more of an independent recruiter. So taking these three different points of view, and some of the media that's out there, some of the posts that you see people just slamming our industry, I'd love the opportunity to just, let's talk about it.

Chenae Erkerd 08:40

Yeah, I'll start. So I think one of the things that I always tell people, is that accountability has to be taken somewhere, right? I, from time to time, I've ruffled some feathers. And I'll say something to the effect of candidates will also go so to like, we talked about this right before, you know, we hit record, so it can, this will also ghost us. I've also, I've also will say something, I'll also say something to the effect of give us grace, because we're only one person. And so people will say, Oh, I've been ghosted, people, recruiters will set up, you know, meetings with me, and they won't show up to the meeting. Now, there are recruiters who who just don't do a good job at the communication part that they need to do in order for candidates to understand why they did not show it to me and I think a candidate is Oh, that. I also think on the other hand, though, that I asked I think candidates should also and I also ask quite a bit that Kenyans do devote give us grace for recruiters like us who genuinely want to help who literally I myself Whoo hoo dedicate her personal time, more personal time at this point for my community than it is for myself, who dedicates her personal time to wanting to make sure people when it is difficult to change the narrative or the mindset of the candidate who was traumatized by the recruiter before me. And so I understand the weight that a candidate holds. I was talking about this yesterday, the candidate urgency is different than our urgency at times, because it's the kin that that needs to job. I also charged the candidates, though, to understand that our urgency is also going to have to be elevated or heightened in a way because dependent depending on the kind of recruiter you are, will depend upon it, that recruiter will get commissioned based off of your salary. So I charge accountability mutually on both ends, because recruiters do get a bad rap. But from the recruiter community, so two candidates, and there there are times when candidates don't know that, depending on how you talk to a recruiter at times, can depend upon whether that recruiter goes to Morgan and Leanne and Sarah and Jake and James and Stephanie, and Monique and whoever, there are times when our community will talk to each other and say, so I have the same experience with him or her or I have the same experience with him or her and your name, will follow that to a point where it'll be difficult for you to break down the barrier of getting the job. So while recruiters are not always professional, and always give you the best experience, I charged the candidate to do their best is not always really perfect, but do their best to stay as professional as possible. If if recruiters if you don't have a good relationship with a recruiter go to go find a recruiter and keep searching recruiters and shopping around with recruiters. And so you find land one who gives you the best experience and the best relationship that you need for your job search. But we are getting a bad rap and it does suck. But at the same time, I have to agree with the candidate pool to an extent that not all recruiters are perfect. Right. And in mutual respect, though, in the recruiting community, we also have experience with candidates and not all candidates are perfect. So it's expecting us expecting everybody?

Leighann Lovely 12:31

Well. And to add to that, you know, if if if a candidate, if you ask a candidate, you need to check in with me as equally as I'm going to check in with you. And they choose not to eat there. I mean, you can you can lead a horse to water, you can't make them drink. I mean, there is you're talking about accountability, right? You know, if you want the job if you want me to work for you. And I'll say this to the candidates that I work with, I'm not going to chase you down. You have to take accountability and responsibility for your own search. And, Morgan, how many candidates do you work with? On any given day? How many candidates how many balls are in the air that you're juggling? And it same with you Shinae how many candidates are you trying to juggle? And because I think that candidates forget that you're not the only person that I'm working with. There could be 15 that I talked to in a day, there could be two, there could be 20 people applying for the same job. I mean, today there's 150 applying for the same job.

Chenae Erkerd 13:49

And there were in the recruiters are also talking to the hiring managers, there is a heightened like, yeah, stakeholders that we have to do we have to juggle

Morgan Sbabo 13:57

and coming from an agency side. So we are working with not just one hiring manager for one single company. I currently am coordinating interviews for next week for six candidates with six different companies working with HR people who are checking in with six or seven different people. So you know, we have juggling communications for all of them. I tell candidates from the first time I talk with them. Look, I'm a mom of four. I'm married to someone in the military. I've got four dogs last I made prop the ball if I don't respond in a time that you want me to call me, text me this is my child email me however, just say hey, Morgan, you were supposed to send me that email. You didn't you're slipping however you want to say it to me. Say to me that way. And I'm okay with it. You're not going to bug me because guess what if I want to find you, I'm going to find you do the same thing to me.

Leighann Lovely 15:00

Yeah, you don't want Morgan hunting you down? Well, I'm kidding. So and it's, it's funny because you can tell. I have told candidates check in with me weekly. And then I will, I'll talk to them. And then in two weeks from two weeks go by, and I'm like, Okay, let me call them. Are they still available? What's going on in their world? And I call them and they're like, oh, yeah, I'm still looking. And I'm like, Why haven't you checked in with me? Like, you need to advocate for you need, you need to be your number one, advocate for yourself, right? If you're still looking for a job, and I'm out here trying to market you, or trying to get you in front of a hiring manager, but I don't hear from you, you're going to drop to the bottom of the list. If you're a candidate who's calling me twice a week, then I know that you are absolutely hungry to find that job. And you're going to be the one that constantly comes to mind when opportunities come up.

Chenae Erkerd 16:11

That's confirmation. I say that on LinkedIn all the time. So there are candidates who will reach out to me and asked me, so how do I how do I get on a recruiting radar? How do I stand out like we all get those kind of like generic run of the mill type of questions. I tell candidates all the time. If you're on LinkedIn, and you comment under a post that I write, you are in my DM, you come to my virtual events and you comment, you react to posts there, you're going, I'm gonna say, Oh, I see him or her all the time. And then once they send me a DM, and they go shut down, need some help. It's almost like a second nature that I go, Oh, what's up, I see you all the time. What can I help you with? Or if I'm doing like a one off event on a Saturday, and they come all the time, if I can, at that point, say your name, even though I've never met you in person, and you have gotten to a point where you stood out. So being like literally bugging us and being on our radar, you suppose a bug that's that's our that's our job to receive it? Right?

Morgan Sbabo 17:14

I've done the same thing. I've had candidates who reach out to me connect with me talk to me on LinkedIn, and then I'll see a post that someone else has posted a job they're hiring for, and I kind of that person in the comments, because that candidates name come straight to my head because they're constantly in communication with me. They're constantly and communication wise, like Shinae said, is liking post it's comment saying it's, you know, making sure my DMs, like making sure that I know your name, because once I know your name, I'm not gonna forget it. That's one thing about recruiters, we don't forget that. We don't forget the

Chenae Erkerd 17:47

people who, especially people that like we were not going to relate to everyone. So let me start there. Because all of us come from different backgrounds, different walks of life. So we're not going to relate in every single facet. But there are times where there is something about a candidate that, like I can see myself in you that it helps it kind of our spidey senses go Oh, snap, like, let me pay a little bit more extra attention, doesn't mean we're going to take our attention off of everybody else. So I 100% agree with Morgan.

Leighann Lovely 18:17

And I like what you just said that we're human, we're not going to connect with everybody. Which is why when when the way that you need to be an advocate for yourself is that if you do do an interview with somebody, and you don't feel like there has been a connection made, go find a recruiter who you do have a connection with because an eminent and it's I was gonna say it's sad to say it's not sad to say it, you truly have to be a salesperson for yourself not. And let me clarify, just to your recruiter, because not everybody can be a salesperson. And that's why you're coming to a recruiter so that they can advocate for you advocate for you a different opportunities. And that's, you know, if a recruiter is reaching out to you, excellent. But you need to be open honest with that recruiter in order for them to help you. And if you're not if there's if you're not happy, you know, if they don't have anything for you, and you know, at that moment, and you're not making a connection with them, it's okay. Find somebody that you do, make a connection with, that somebody you feel comfortable with, that you feel like could assist you in finding your next opportunity. And so I love that you brought that up that not every recruiter and every candidate are going to jive together. I mean, it's it's that's just the way the world works right.

Chenae Erkerd 19:54

And the hardest part about that is people take their personnel and is it is not It's very much a thing of we want to help you. But there are times when this recruiter can't like. And it's not because we don't want to, it's what I my level of expertise, or what I recruit for does not fit your skill set. So I can't help you. I can give you tips and tricks on how to prepare for the next opportunity or how to approach the next recruiter. But personally, I'm unable to help you. So it's in from that level of honesty, I've learned that candidates appreciate. And that level of honesty recruiters should be able to have. And there are times when I've had to tell candidates there are so if you're ghosted, one of the reasons why you could be ghosted, and I've done this before, I've had to come back and check myself on it, where if we reach out to a candidate, and we didn't thoroughly investigate their skill, set their level of expertise for our particular role, we've gotten that candidate excited about this role, we've then literally realized, they're not going to be a good fit. So it's easier for me not to follow up, then to take it and admit that I was wrong and have to eat it. So I do my best not to do that and just say, hey, you know what, actually, I made a mistake. Or I've actually changed that to do to go to my hiring leaders and say, Hey, I have so and so I found them on LinkedIn, or wherever I was searching. Do you mind taking a look at their skill set real quick? Are they an ideal candidate for your role? If yes, then I reach out to the candidate, but it's recruiters sometimes can can get, we can get really excited. For those of us who absolutely love our jobs, we can get really excited when we felt when we feel like we have found that ideal candidate, and we were wrong. And if we're wrong, it's really hard to go back to that candidate who was probably desperate to then say, so by the way, I was wrong. You are not the right candidate. Like how do you tell a candidate that right? So it's easy for a recruiter to not say anything further to just go on about a business? That's although very wrong, it is very real. So I want candidates to understand that if you are ghosted, it is still wrong on behalf of the recruiter, but just go on to the next recruiter.

Leighann Lovely 22:18

And you're right. It's it is very humbling. It is very, almost somewhat embarrassing when you go Oh, okay. Well, yeah, I totally missed the mark on that one. But we're human. That's, that's the reality of it. We're human beings that make mistakes.

Chenae Erkerd 22:44

Yeah, we're not forgiven often.

Morgan Sbabo 22:49

Still do it. You know, sometimes you see those things. And then the person you talk to somebody that you connect with, and then you're like, you go back, and as you're doing your write up, or you're reviewing it to max up. So what happened was, someone had to do it, and I go back to candidates, and I'll tell them, Look, you know, I've kind of been through your resume. And here's what I saw. And yeah, it's, it's kind of blowing to the ego, when we are sitting here going, like, Ah, now I gotta call him back and tell him it's not gonna work out. So what I tend tend to do is look at other roles that I have available with other clients and see where I can get him in, or will FYI, that person to a client that we have set up a profile and then send them out to our clients who have got the seller candidate, here's their experience, do you have something just so that person knows that I'm still trying and I'm still trying to push? Here's a different thought. And here's something I've been saying. For over the last year, a lot has happened, and especially the agency, part of the recruiting industry. In 2020, we had a very slow year, in 2021. It was one of the hottest years in recruiting. Everyone was hiring. Everyone was hiring recruiters, even recruiters without experience. And when you do that, and you hire in mass, you're not giving proper training. So I honestly feel that the candidate experience part wasn't in that training. And fortunately, that's where we started seeing a lot of problems. In my opinion, that's kind of

Chenae Erkerd 24:38

Yeah, I was trained in higher education. And my mentor taught me about the candidate experience even before I got to healthcare. So I agree with that. But to your point, Morgan, like, to your point, you're right, like, I wouldn't have known about the candidate experience for real when I started recruiting had I not good gotten under a senior recruiter who understood the candidate experience And who could teach me right from wrong? So, and there will be little things that I would do like it would be something to the effect of, if I if I disqualify a candidate, and and they got that disqualification email, my mentor would say, well, this actually was a good candidate. But now that you've disqualified them, don't put them back. Or, or I had done something when I had transitioned into healthcare. So I was working in patient transports, I was working on the patient transport positions. And I had made an offer to someone who did not even interview yet. But their names were the same. So what was hard was, their names, their first names were the same, and their last name was similar. So I went to the wrong name and made an A made a call and made an offer. So when I went back and looked at my sheet again, I was like, Oh, crap, I made an offer to the wrong candidate. And so I went back, and I said, So candidate, I made an offer to you without even thank you interview. Yeah, it was like, No, I was confused about the call, but I was gonna accept the offer and then went, and we just laughed. And so it was the good thing about that was he still he still interviewed, and I actually was still able to make him an offer eventually. But it was on me to go back to that candidate and say, You know what, I made you an offer. And I apologize, and I really hope this doesn't mess up your day. And I explained to him that you guys's names were similar. So it was my it was my mistake. And so he was like, No, I get it. I was gonna accept it. I won't go ask some questions. I said, if I was you open medical questions. And we just laughed about it. So just being able, just being able to have that honest conversation and to admit like I was wrong, I think candidates respect that a lot more.

Leighann Lovely 26:56

They, I, I completely agree. The the honesty and the humility, when we accept responsibility for making a mistake. But here's what I love about and here's where are your two roles differ. Morgan has the ability that if a candidate doesn't qualify for one role she's working on, she can then market that out. She now you come from the corporate environment, people are applying or you're sourcing? Unfortunately, you know, you can you only have so many places within your organization. And if they get disqualified, you know, it's kind of like, so at some point, you're going to have to let them know that, you know, they're not qualified for your organization, which is why you have a network of individuals, I'm just, I'm assuming that you probably work with like, Hey, this is a really great candidate, they're just not right for, you know, the company I represent.

Chenae Erkerd 27:57

Or, for me, it would be the position that I'm recruiting for or so for me is always is always I have, I have colleagues who I can shop that can around and hand them off. But there are times when I'm just like, I don't think they're going to be a good fit for this particular role. I've also had candidates that may not be may not have gotten into the company that may, I may know another recruiter that can help them better than me. And so, I mean, I just tried to build a network that us as recruiters can get together in see where the candidate can land.

Leighann Lovely 28:34

Yep. And that's awesome. And I was talking to Morgan about that yesterday to be able to have a community because a lot of people think for recruiters, especially recruiters who are on commission. A lot of people have gotten the idea that for recruiters, it's all about just the money. And for me, of course, you know, I work for money. I don't know anybody in the world who doesn't go to work in order to get paid. I mean, that's just that's why we work right. But we choose our industry. And we choose what we do. And those recruiters who are great at what they do care about the people that they work with. I've met I mean, I've met hundreds, hundreds of recruiters throughout my career. I've been in it nearly 20 years so I got some time on on Morgan even

Morgan Sbabo 29:31

Started earlier than mean we're the same age

Leighann Lovely 29:36

but I've met hundreds of recruiters and the ones that are great at their job. And this is not a this is not a boast. This is not a hey, that a girl that a boy that uh this is not a but they have a tendency to be the ones that are still taking calls from their candidates at seven o'clock at night. They're still taking you know, calls or answering texts on the weekends? Because they actually care. And they're like, oh, you know, I just want to let this person know what's going on. And again, I'm not I'm not advocating for working 24 hours a day. But they're the ones that seem to always be there for their candidates. And the ones that actually get involved and get to know these people beyond just what do you do for a living Morgan smiling, because she can probably tell you everything about the some of the people's lives that she works with, I know she can. There's been times where I've told Morgan, you need to cut this person off, she thinks you're her mom. She becomes a life counselor to everybody she works with no, I'm kidding. But I mean, and then there's recruiters who are transactional, and they do the interview. And that's the way I was in the beginning. Because years ago, that's the way it was. All I want to know about is, but we also have to remember that there is a fine line between what we can ask and what we can't ask. And as Morgan was saying, recruiters were being hired with no training. And we have to be careful to make sure that we're not imposing, you know, on their life or crossing over any lines. And if that individual chooses, to get to know us, all the better.

Morgan Sbabo 31:35

I mean, recruiting is all about building a personal relationship with these people. And it's, I mean, it's all professional, but still, they want to know they can trust you. They want to know you're a human, they don't want there's this whole thing about these bots out here. And they want to make sure that you know, one of those, you know, and like you said, making a transactional call, like, I will tell you, I'm not a used car salesman, plain and simple. If I'm a candidate, I just recently had a candidate who just kind of, there were some red flags, and a lot of them had to do with attitude. I just told them that I didn't think it was going to be a good fit with my client, I'd let my client know, they're no longer interested, because of the way they were behaving like, I'm not going to put you out of my clients business. And know that in three, four weeks, there's going to be issues, whether it be personality, whether it be attendance, whatever it may be, I'm just not going to do it because I am about the candidate experience, but I have to be about my client experience as well. And I'm here to build long lasting relationships. With both my clients and my candidates, I've had candidates who have started, they've had issues going on at the business that they're at, because I do direct hire placement, they've had seen some issues came to me. And I facilitated that conversation between them and HR, so they felt comfortable because a lot of people when you start a new company, you don't feel comfortable, you don't want to be the quote unquote, problem child. But I facilitated that and been able to make sure that there's that communication and make sure it's established. And they've said it and things have been fixed. So it's knowing you have to build a rapport with them so they know they can trust you.

Leighann Lovely 33:24

Absolutely. Now that you brought up something that let's let's put this to rest, because I just I I love this question or I love this and it and I giggle every time it gets brought up

Chenae Erkerd 33:39

Can you guess is it the applicant tracking system? Oh gosh, yes

Leighann Lovely 33:42

it is. So I'm the candidate well I applied to the position and I know that you know the applicant tracking system must have just like disqualified or it didn't put me through or so do a eyes applicant tracking systems or any artificial intelligence disqualify applicants so that they are never seen? Is there a big black hole when resumes gets sent that that you know disqualify people or make their resumes you know, disappear into a black hole?

Chenae Erkerd 34:28

Here's an interesting thing and my experience in my experience, I have never heard of an AI take like doing our job. That's that's actually the recruiters job so so when when people apply into a position in any company, they're going to be most of the time required questions you have to answer. If you answer no to any of those required questions, more Most likely the recruiter got those required questions from the job description that was written by the hiring managers. If you answer no, the system says you don't meet the minimum qualifications for that role. So you're going to be automatically disqualified. That is not the same thing as saying, Did I beat the applicant tracking system? Because it's how you answered the question based on how you completed your application. If you say yes to those required questions, and you make it to the recruit recruiters view, the recruiter will manually go through your resume and the job description and the notes that we'd have taken after we have met with the hiring manager before the position is even posted. We go through all of that we review all of that against your resume, to make sure that you actually do meet those minimum qualifications. Because what candidates will also do is they won't answer yes to those questions. And they typically don't meet the minimum qualifications. So we have to make sure that we do another check, to ensure that we can actually send you over to the hiring managers. We also this is LeighAnn. Going back to your first question about the bad rep that recruiters get, we also get a bad rep if if you say you meet the minimum qualifications, but on paper, your resume says you do not or how you wrote your resume says you do not. We will if we if we ended up sending you over to the hiring manager just for quote unquote, I wish I could see my air quotes, but quote unquote, for a chance to sit in front of a hiring manager to explain your experience. There is a legal ramification to that. So we send you over and you don't meet those minimum qualifications. This is the part where all of the candidates disagree with me. So I'm completely It's okay. And this is the part where I get bashed, but it's okay. So there are times when if we send you over, and there is a candidate in it amongst the 1000s of people that have applied for this role, all it takes is one candidate for them to reach out to the legal part of the companies we work for or for them to retain an attorney, to go through that job description, go through that resume and literally compare them, and then say, this company discriminated against me. If that then happens, every single person that is in line, and had had a chance to touch that application of the person who was hired, we are all on the hook to understand why this person was hired over the person who is now suing the company. If the person that was hired, technically didn't meet all those minimum qualifications, but the hiring manager just felt like they wanted to give them a chance, then that means we did something wrong. Right? So I've had people say, Oh, that's not gonna hold up in court, but it's a reality that we have to deal with. And so, so, so long is long answer to answering the question of is there a such thing as applicant tracking system? In a way? Yes, because you have to answer required questions, but how you answer those required questions is going to depend on how far you get in that bucket. Right.

Leighann Lovely 38:21

And people who think that they can beat that is sorry, I'm gonna let Morgan dive in here real quick.

Morgan Sbabo 38:29

So on top of that, it's like, those questions are set up manually by the recruiter. So it's not like something that's pre formulated by some applicant tracking system, your recruitment recruiter has actually gone in and set those up. I have worked with five different ATS systems over my career, and not a single one of them has ever disqualified a candidate. I get every resume for anyone who has ever applied to through our own company's website. Any company I've ever worked for, as well as any job board I've ever posted jobs on. I've had candidate two. Oh, yeah. Mark. Yes. And they're qualified and when I call them oh, well, I don't see plastics in your in your resume. Oh, I misunderstood the question. So when you answered you had six years of plastics manufacturing experience, you don't? Well, no. Okay. Then we're not qualified.

Leighann Lovely 39:33

Right. So and going back to what Janae said, the legal ramifications of the reason that companies put that requirement there and the reason that they will not budge on that expression, and they, what companies can choose to do is they can choose to repost the position with the new requirements. If they decide that they want to take a look at people who don't necessarily We meet the original requirements, but if that's what they are posting, and they're using an applicant tracking system, to prequalify them, and then they choose to hire somebody that does not meet that those qualifications just to clarify, they're basically saying, hey, everybody else that we disqualified prior to, you know, hiring this person, you basically were discriminating against, and we didn't give them a chance. So in order for them to, you know, decide that, let's say we're going to take out the five years of whatever experience, a company could choose to do that, but then they would have to repost the position and give the other applicants the opportunity to apply. And we've heard this, we've heard this before, where companies have, you know, with the whole AI thing, or whatever. And the reason companies are really being careful with this is because it was an error in the way that their AI was set up, and they got sued. So companies are really making sure that they're cracking down on, no, we will not accept anybody if they don't meet the specific qualifications. And if they choose to change those, it has to be reposted. It has to be re reviewed. And I think that a lot of candidates don't quite get that, especially if you're working in a very large company, or a company that would be a target for possibly being sued. Those are, those are real things that are happening in today's world. Not to mention, we're also living in a Sue world happy, right, or Sue, happy world, Sue world happy. Sue happy world. So I love the point that you brought up on that tonight. That's I mean, that's awesome.

Chenae Erkerd 42:01

Can I can I add a follow up question to that? Yeah. So what do you all think about? I saw that Morgan, what do you all think about recruiters telling candidates to if they don't meet 100% of the qualifications to apply anyway?

Morgan Sbabo 42:18

No. I mean, in all honesty, if you want to go shoot your shot, go ahead. But we're not swiping right and left here. Like it's tender. So basically, you shoot your shot, you're going to get your feelings hurt, plain and simple. Because you're going to get something saying, You're not qualified now. And we're talking like, minimum qualifications, like minimum experience, not looking at a job description, saying, Oh, I've done that before. Oh, I've done that. That's not what we're looking at. We're looking at minimum minimum qualifications. If you don't meet those don't apply,

Leighann Lovely 42:54

Ya know, if it's, if it's written, if it's hard, you know, pen to paper written that these are the minimum minimal qualifications? No, if it's one of those, like, nice to have. That's a different story. Right? So yeah, nice to have, you know, flex. But if it's an absolute minimum, minimum qualifications, you don't meet those, no, you don't apply. But if you're a little, like, on the, you know, what am I trying to come up with, if you're not quite as seasoned as they're looking for, but the job description is, you know, allowing for that, sure. You know, but again, Morgan's to Morgan's point, minimum minimum qualifications. It has to be, it has to be there, when I'm working with my clients, and they say, we absolutely need X, Y, and Z. I don't submit a candidate unless they have X, Y, and Z. Because my client is going to come back to me and go, What is this? They don't, why would I hire this person when they don't have X, Y and Z? I told you that I need that. Okay. It just makes me as the recruiter look incompetent. So if I'm, you know, interviewing candidates, it'd be like, Yeah, I think, yeah, I think we've covered that I think I go on.

Chenae Erkerd 44:28

And yeah, I got to ask, I asked a follow up question, because I've seen so many recruiters say, oh, apply anyway, if you meet 80% of the minimum qualifications. And while while and I've had I've also seen candidates where they've said, I've, I haven't met the 100% of the qualifications, and I got hired while and I've always said while that may be true, while you may have gotten hired anyway, one, again, I have a legal background. So we're gonna go back to the legal ramifications about that, but then to That's not true for everybody for a great majority. So it's, it's, it's misleading to tell a candidate, oh, apply anyway. Because like we're gonna say you won't get your photos are a great majority of people that if you tell them oh, if you meet 80% of the minimum qualifications, then go ahead and apply. A great majority of people in that pool are going to get their feelings hurt. I had a recruiter, I saw a recruiter almost be canceled on LinkedIn, because she posted the amount of people who apply for a role. And then she said, how many people she disqualify. And that sparked this conversation about minimum qualifications versus preferred qualifications versus well, maybe the hiring managers or even you, as a recruiter is incompetent with, with the job description that you wrote your skill set, and then what the kind of skill that the hiring managers are looking for, like, like, it sparked this whole thing, bashing her and I literally said to myself, but they would have 100 in so us however, many people don't meet the minimum qualifications, and y'all told them to apply anyway, it's still her job to disqualify all those people.

Leighann Lovely 46:17

Right? Right. And that's why we have to be careful when, and we have to coach, our hiring managers, when they're writing job descriptions. When they say I need a master's degree, or that's a minimum qualification. And we have to look at him and go, do you know how many people in the US have master's degrees? And then when you give them the actual number, they go, Oh, okay, a bachelor's degree. And then you say, Do you know how many people in the US have bachelor's degrees? And then they go in industry? Oh, so do you want that to be a minimum qualification? Or do you want it to be a preferred qualification, and then all of a sudden, what was a minimum qualification becomes a preferred qualification, and then it's just five years in the industry, or 10 years in the industry, or the verbiage becomes a bachelor's degree or equivalent experience, because all of the sudden, they're realizing that 40%, you know, that the amount of people who have a bachelor's degree is only about 40% of people, unless they're in a very specific industry, you know, engineer, doctor, and so on and so forth. I mean, people out there don't realize that the numbers of people who have bachelor's degrees or higher, are not very high. And it's just the fact and less and less people are spending the money to go and get bachelor's degrees. Well, okay, we are coming to time, and I could continue to talk for with both of you ladies for the next two hours. But to respect both of your time I have a question of the season, and I think I'm gonna get some fun answers from both of you. If you could change your job, or the practice that people have in your role? What would you change about it?

Chenae Erkerd 48:22

I'm gonna let Morgan go first. And she gets 16 years, and

Morgan Sbabo 48:28

I've got one. Um, so when you say practice, what are you? Are you looking at, like practices on how we do things? Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 48:36

I mean, if you could, if you could change anything about, you know, the way that that something that's happens in your job on a regular basis, or the practice that people, you know, have in your role? What would what would you change? What would you make different?

Morgan Sbabo 48:57

I would honestly, for me, it's going to be about the candidate. And if you're an agency client experience, so it's, it's a customer service issue. And it's humanizing, keeping that, that human interaction with people. And I understand like, we can't respond to, if I get 300 resumes a day, and they're not qualified yet, we're going to start, you get an automated response. I can't send a personal email to three. I don't know 290 candidates out of 300, who applied for a job, because then I don't have time to do anything else. So but it's still you need to have that human interaction and it's putting trainings in place and put processes in place for your employees, especially if you're bringing on new recruiters who've never done this who've never been in the industry and don't understand it or don't have a customer service element. And haven't worked in customer service. There are translatable, skills that come from other customer service industries. And you're working with different people from all walks of life. So it's better training into delivering a better customer service to your candidates and your clients. That's what I would change.

Leighann Lovely 50:23

Awesome. What about you today,

Chenae Erkerd 50:26

I would say, for the competence of the recruiter. So it goes along with, partly with what Morgan was talking about when it comes to the candidate experience. But it also ties into us understanding that we are the liaison between the candidate and the company, and whatever facet because if you are like Yulia, you're independent. Morgan is an agency and I'm with corporate. Either way, all of our jobs are similar in the fact that we are the liaison between the candidates in the company, part of our jobs. Because we're in the middle, we take the brunt of a lot of the bashing, it's the candidate bashes us for either ghosting that not responding at all, or not getting them through to the hiring manager as it does in our control. We also get bashed from the hiring manager of either not sending the right candidates. Although we are paying attention to JavaScript, I'm not sending the right candidate, or having to convince the hiring manager that there is not a perfect candidate. So either way, we do have we take on a lot of the mental part that goes along with juggling different stakeholders in our process. I in my everyday job. I had a hiring manager one day, say to me, Oh, and by the way, I'm going to look at every candidate that you send over. Right. So I thought to myself, because they're going to look at they're going to look at all of the candidates anyway. But I asked myself, Why did he feel the need to tell me that? And so I realized I said to myself, did another hiring manager that I work with, tell them how I work? Because I hold everybody accountable that I work with. So what month one of my directors said to me, should they you have reached a point where you've taught them how to treat you. Okay, great now, awesome, very good. And part of that is because I am someone who I demand a certain level of respect from everybody, candidate, CEO, director, whoever you are, I demand respect from everyone. So I will want the difference that I would change is I would want the confidence in the recruiters to increase because our confidence had our hands, our confidence have to be on par because of the level of sacrifice time and effort that we take to try to literally bring the ideal candidate candidate and talent into our companies. But then also, us either not getting as much accolades as we deserve, or us taking the bashing for something that's technically not even our fault. Yeah. So I would hope that our confidence would increase, and that we know how to separate business and personal so that we can give a better candidate and client experience.

Leighann Lovely 53:47

That's awesome. And I totally agree. You know, we're we're constantly being, you know, the ping pong ball in the middle, taking on the brunt of the stress. So, so, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, you're welcome to provide contact on how they can do that. So somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Morgan Sbabo 54:13

Look me up on linkedIN,

Chenae Erkerd 54:14

Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 54:17

LinkedIn, and I will I will put your, your guys LinkedIn in the show notes. So if somebody does want to reach out to learn a little bit more about about you, they can go ahead and do that. And I thank both of you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. You know, hopefully, you know, recruiters in general can can start to kind of dig out of this. I don't know this, this whirlwind of, of getting this bad rap that we've we've continued to kind of try to dig out of but I know that you know, we all have the idea that we can help and we want to help individuals find you know, work and anyways, Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk with both of you ladies today.

Chenae Erkerd 55:04

Thank you for inviting us.

Morgan Sbabo 55:06

Yes, thank you.

Leighann Lovely 55:07

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

recruiters, candidate, morgan, people, recruiting, minimum qualifications, hiring manager, work, experience, company, disqualified, job, talk, applicant tracking system, resume, hire, apply, conversation, job description, person

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A lifelong HR professional and consultant Susan Raemer-Rodriguez is the Chief HR Strategist at R & R Human Resources Solutions. Susie helps make complicated HR simple, we all know that in today’s world HR is constantly changing, and having a professional to assist is more important than ever. Susie helps with Hiring, termination, and everything in-between to make sure that people are treated with respect and that companies are protected. This is a great conversation that is well worth your time.

Contact Susie-

Website – www.gethrresults.com

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/susanraemerrodriguez

E-mail - srr@gethrresults.com

Phone number - 847-867-7307

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:10

Susie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 01:15

Thank you for having me. I'm excited as well.

Leighann Lovely 01:18

So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 01:22

Okay, so I am a human resources consultant. I have consulted for more years than I sat in the HR chair as an HR lady. I have been consultant most of my clients are small to medium sized businesses. In a lot of cases, they do not have a human resources department, but they have employees, so they need help sometimes. And I get involved with everything from hiring to saying goodbye to those people who are not in the right seats on the proverbial company bus. And everything that happens in between I help write policies, I help implement employment manuals, employee relations issues, lots of employee relations issues, I do a lot of recruiting, although not as an agency would do recruiting. So just as if and HR that I was, you know, the HR person for the organization, I get involved in recruiting, I get involved in getting people on boarded, and then everything through to off boarding.

Leighann Lovely 02:36

Awesome. So something that I noticed, you have a motto, that's and I love this, your motto is sophisticated, HR made simple. I love it. Because we all know that HR can be so unbelievably complicated. And And as I'm saying this, it's it's funny, because I just recently read a post on LinkedIn. That was it was actually a poll that said, Do HR professionals, do they require or should they people be required to have a degree? And I was wildly surprised that a lot of people were saying no, that HR professionals shouldn't be required to have a degree you're sort of. And as I was thinking to myself, or as I was reading that I was thinking to myself, this is part of the problem that individuals don't fully understand what HR professionals and people who said in those roles do.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 03:39

Exactly. So I think a lot of people think that HR is a payroll and benefits. And yes to do payroll and benefits actually probably could be better served by having an accounting degree. I've never been of the mind that HR people should be the ones processing payroll, you know, sometimes in a small company that happens, but I think that payroll is better left to the accounting professionals. And I do disagree with our I agree with you. But I disagree with all the people on the LinkedIn poll, who said that HR professionals don't need to contribute I think that's completely false. There's many university master's programs in organizational development, human resources management, as well as, as you probably know, certifications that HR professionals can obtain, you know, early on in their career and then even a little bit later on in their career at at a higher level. So I think it is very, whenever I recruit for an HR person, I always look for someone with a degree, always

Leighann Lovely 04:50

Right, someone with a degree and even someone who's, you know, Sherm, there's different involved it's Sherm getting certifications that are being on that, because laws are, are constantly changing and right, in order to keep up with those laws and HR is really, it's about compliance. It's so many pieces of what we do. And then of course, there's the human side of it.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 05:20

Exactly. But it's, oh, go ahead, I'm sorry, no,

Leighann Lovely 05:23

and I apologize, I was just going to finish up a saying, you know, and that's where I think that people, people get lost in that they think, human resources, it's supposed to be a, you know, a human as a resource for them. But, you know, as we all know, that has gotten sidelined. And HR is really about the watchdog for the company, the compliance piece. That is, and again, that's why I go back to your motto, sophisticated, HR made simple, because it is truly, it is truly a complex process.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 05:59

Exactly. And I'm of the mind. So a couple of things. It is really hard to be in compliance with every single law at every single moment. Because there's a lot of intertwining of laws, as I am sure you know, all the big acronyms out there, Ada FMLA, you know, just all sorts of employment laws that that a company based on their size has to be with, in compliance with and in terms of, you know, simplifying HR, because it can be complex, it, you can bring it down to a simple level. So, you know, for example, I'll use an example of a performance appraisal process, I often see and one of the things I do a lot when I start working with a company is I do what I call an HR assessment, where I do a deep dive into how all their processes are run, and what their documents look like, and how they're managing different functions and of quote, unquote, HR. But I see a lot of very complex performance management processes, you know, for pages and pages of forms and competencies, and all sorts of things that need to be filled out and it becomes all about the form. Right? It becomes all about filling out this form. And that's why people hate it so much. But it really doesn't have to be it's, it's a conversation, and it's a conversation that truly needs to happen more than once a year. Maybe we're formerly documenting it once a year. But we should be conversing as managers, we should be conversing with our, with our staff all the time. Nothing should be a surprise at the end of the year. And believe me, I've had many clients that wait until that time, to let the person know how much they hate them.

Leighann Lovely 07:59

Well, and it's interesting that you bring that up, because I was actually working with somebody who a group of employees that, that every year they they got that big long form that they were required to fill out. And this company said, If you don't fill it out and sign it, you don't get a race, you won't get your race, right. And this group of employees just decided that we're gonna we're gonna boycott this. It's this like seven or 10 page long document basically saying, What did you do for the company this year? How do you feel your performance was? How do you think you could have improved and all of these just, I guess, outdated, almost questions, just to the point where the, you know, the employers were just like, so they they refused. It leaves, like a large group of employees refused, just outright said, I'm not doing it. Like, you never asked me through the year. You never talked to me about this through the year, we never discussed, I'm refusing to sign it. I am refusing to sign this document. And the company was kind of like, what what do we sell it right now? What like,

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 09:10

What do we do now,

Leighann Lovely 09:11

If you've got, you know, a large handful of employees who just outright are going to refuse because they disagreed with something maybe on that forum or

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 09:21

Club because it sounds like they wanted their increase. But in order to get that increase, they had to fill out this form. And that's why I'm a big proponent of separating those two processes. Right.

Leighann Lovely 09:34

And, and the end of the story was that they didn't sign the form, the company did end up giving them the raise because the alternative was, we don't give it to them and they leave.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 09:47

Right. So what are that? Right, right and and how did that help the employee in terms of what the performance management process is supposed to accomplish, which was coaching, counseling If necessary, you know, applying corrective action if necessary, what, you know what? These people associated doing a performance review with their increase? And really that's, that's wrong? It's interesting I have a current client now I'm sorry, no, do you want me to? Okay, so I have a current client that I'm working with now and you know, stepped into actually an eight an interim HR director role from a person who was very exact about how the processes go went. And so we have people constantly, can I have my performance review? Can I have my performance review? Because they know that when they do it, then they get their increase? Right? And so it isn't about how can I, you know, what are my goals? My career aspirations? Do you really care about me as a person as an employee? It's about what's my increase? And when am I gonna get that.

Leighann Lovely 11:03

And that shouldn't those two things should not be exclusive, it should be about, let's talk about your growth, let's talk about your career path, let's talk about and if a company if you are of a position where you get those incremental increases, whether it be once a year, whether it be twice a year, you're assessed at that, that should be more about the continuous conversation that is set forth with your manager, where you're having quarterly conversations, where you're having daily conversations, or maybe maybe weekly conversations of just touch points of, hey, do you need anything from me, you know, you're doing a great job, or we need to, let's, let's tweak this a little bit and do it. And again, I know that, you know, in companies that are hundreds of 1000s of people. But that's that's the point is that you shouldn't have a manager who's managing 1000 people, because clearly, that manager is not going to know every one of their employees, you need to take bite sized, you know, bite sized pieces here. And if you have a manager who's managing supervisors, each one of those supervisors should have only enough people that they know exactly what's going on in the work, you know, the work of every, every single one of their people.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 12:23

That they can truly be a good manager too. And that brings up another point is I'm also a big believer in doing assessments of the manager, like giving feedback, anonymously, of course, through a 360 or 180, I guess, if it's just the employees, but just giving the manager feedback, and how are they doing for their people? Because that's what it's all about.

Leighann Lovely 12:51

Right? And if if employees, if employees knew that they have the ability to, then this wouldn't have happened, you know, the whole I'm not signing my review wouldn't have happened if the employees felt that they had a voice to be able to say, hey, I don't agree with this process. Oh, I or this is, this is the reason, you know, if they had ever asked the employees, hey, how do you feel your manager does for you? How do you feel these processes are? Do you feel that these processes are effective? Because the company would have figured out that, oh, there's a problem with our process, and that the employees actually feel degraded by this process, right? They feel like it's just basically a bash session of here's what you need to do better. You did this, okay, better, but we're gonna give you your and I think it was, in this case, it was like a 3% raise for everybody. And they were all like, Oh, great. Here, I get my 25 cents, or, I mean, it's, it's basically an insult, you know, for this particular one, these people were like, some of these individuals were like, take your 25 cents and shove it where the, you know, where the sun don't shine.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 14:05

But it's a very old fashioned, I guess I'll call it right way of managing people. It's, you know, kind of the 70s 80s maybe way of doing things, you know, we're the bosses, you're the peons, and you do what we say, and you are happy with that. And that's how, you know, things worked in the 60s and 70s. And I think it was around the 80s where companies would big layoffs started happening and you didn't, you know, stay somewhere till you got your golden watch. And, you know, the children of I guess that was probably Gen X saw how their parents were treated by companies that they had put in a lot of time and effort to and then they were just like, Go Oh, and this new generation of millennials isn't gonna stand for that.

Leighann Lovely 15:06

Right?

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 15:06

Now we've got Gen Z coming to

Leighann Lovely 15:09

Right now. And it's an it's, it's interesting, I love the study of the generations, because you, you watch how they're how each group is influenced by, you know, the previous group and how they, you know, and of course that, you know, the oldest group always criticizes the work ethic or the decisions of the younger group. But in essence, they're criticizing that group for making decisions based on what they learned from thegroup in front of them.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 15:46

Well, and also were the parents of that group, correct?

Leighann Lovely 15:49

Yes. We're criticizing our own children for for trying to do it a different way. Because created this from the pains they had.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 15:58

Right? Right. The Boomers are the younger boomers, I'll say. And the Gen Xers are the parents of the millennials and the Gen Z ers,

Leighann Lovely 16:10

Right? So we criticize, we criticize their actions, yet, they're, they're making an attempt to do it better and different. Because they saw the pains that their parents went through or their grandparents went through. And they, they, they don't want to, they don't want to experience that they don't want to experience that. And it's hilarious, which is why I love the study of the evolution of how the generations change, you know, I was a latchkey kid, I. And I saw both my parents working, you know, hard as hell to provide and, and I mean, it was just, you know, and then layoffs and, and just amazing. It's amazing. If you were to really dive into the analysis of why each generation does what each generation does, you know, that the kids that come up, we, you know, they get a trophy, you know, trophies and you talking about, you know, participation trophies. Right.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 17:14

Exactly.

Leighann Lovely 17:16

And we created, we created the whole, like, Oh, you're not gonna congratulate me for showing up to work? To congratulate me,

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 17:25

I don't get that corner office. I have to actually do something to gain that that in the workplace. Right? Yeah. Well, would it be you're

Leighann Lovely 17:36

Not gonna, you're not gonna just pay me $80,000 A year for, this job.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 17:42

That's, that's another topic. I don't know, if we want to talk about the we're gonna mindset,

Leighann Lovely 17:50

We're gonna get into that. You do a lot of recruiting for your companies. And right now in this world, the idea, the mindset, what you just said, you know, the hiring in today's world, it's, and trust me, I've been around the block, you know, I've been around the block. I've, I've, you know, in the industry now hiring 20, almost 20 years. It is a it is a different animal. And obviously, every you know, every year that goes by things change, but right now, we are. It is unprecedented. You know, I say this, like every five years, like, Oh, my God, the world has changed so much. But no, we are truly in, you know, a time period in which somebody comes to me and they're like, Oh, I just graduated. And I was told that I should be able to make $70,000 At my first job. And I'm like,

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 18:46

Okay, no, you can want that. To get it. Right. Yeah, there's Yes, I've always said, and I've been recruiting problem for more years than you have. But back in the day when you ran an ad in the newspaper, and you've had to call the Chicago Tribune and actually read it to them, so we won't go there. That's become easier. But in terms of people's attitudes, and so what I was saying was, I've always said, even when there's a lot of candidates out there, it's always hard to find the people. Always it's obviously harder when there's not as many people out there, but it's always been hard to find good people. Okay, so having said that, what I keep in seeing these last couple of years is one, this unrealistic view of what my worth is in the marketplace? And to know, no courteous behavior, no etiquette, no thank yous No. follow ups No, go or I shouldn't say no ghosting And I get ghosted. I actually got ghosted the other day by an HR person, I should have called them and yelled at them because that's like our people. Right, right. I'm writing a search for an HR person. And my, I have a Calendly app and like, you probably have something like that. And it actually asks the person to reconfirm a few hours before the time that they're going to be there. And this person who will remain nameless, reconfirmed and didn't show up. I'm sitting on the Zoom call. No, I'm so sorry. I can't make it. Can we reschedule just so

Leighann Lovely 20:43

I've had that with recruiters. I've had recruiters ghost and I'm like, You You're a recruiter, you know, the paints. You know, the frustration, you know, the work that goes into setting up interviews?

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 21:01

Or HR card,

Leighann Lovely 21:03

Right? Yeah, absolutely. You just, it just got pulled from you, you are no longer you are no longer on our team. It's amazing. It is absolutely amazing. The amount of people the respect of time, people do not respect other people's time. And I that was always like, my, I grew up with a dad who used to say to me, if you're if you're late. If you're on time, you're early. Yeah, if you're on time, right, if you're late, if you're on time, you're late, if you're if you're just on time you're late, so you better be showing up there 10 minutes early to make sure that you know where you're going. And when I was young, and I was interviewing, he used to say to me, you need to drive there the day before, so that you know where you're going. So that there's no excuse as to why you can't show up and run. That's ridiculous. And then when I started interviewing, you know, living in it, I lived in a little tiny town. At the time, it was a little tiny town. Now it's exploding. But I lived in a little tiny town. Some people who are from the Wisconsin area will know it was a kind of walk population at that time. Like that's where my daughter went to camp. Right. So at that time population was like, I mean, it was less than 10,000. I think that now it's like 45,000. I mean, it's exploding, it's exploding. But at that time, it was under like the 10,000. Right, it was a very small town. And then I started interviewing closer to Milwaukee, which is, you know, like a 45 minute drive. And, you know, being this, basically a little small town girl going out into these areas. I was like, wow, now I understand because navigating that when you're you know, 2023 years old and going, I can't find this place. And all of a sudden made sense. Like, oh, that's why I'm driving here the day before, because it took me 20 minutes to find the building. And I would have been late,

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 23:09

Right? Because I'm taking it seriously, because

Leighann Lovely 23:11

I'm taking it seriously. And that was the way that I grew up. Again, I'm 42 years old. There is a there is a lot of people in my generation that didn't grow up that way, I'm kind of on the cuff, but I had a dad who was adamant about that kind of thing. And, and i i People still even in the tail end of my generation still are not a huge, they still have that issue with the whole, like not respecting people's time. But I was also you know, I was 18 when I got my first cell phone. So God, wow, that was

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 23:47

I was a lot older than that.

Leighann Lovely 23:48

I know. It's so strange. Like I was at that you mean they have an adult life but and the thing that used to drive me crazy. When I was out with one of my girlfriends, you know, we're having lunch or something and one of them with their phone would ring and sitting at a table. They would pick up their phone and just start having a conversation. And I'm like, we're out to lunch. Right? Hello. I'm here, right? I'm here in person. Now I know what occasionally happens. And people will say I'm sorry, I'm sorry, excuse me, I have to take this. And then they'll come back and say sorry, it was my wife or it was my daughter or was an emergency call. I that's there's been times where you know, I came out of a meeting and I had 21 missed phone calls because my daughter knocked her tooth out. Oh, we all have emergency phone calls that that we need to take but respect people's time right? Set a meeting show up if you set a meeting don't.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 24:48

Just cancel it what what's wrong with canceling correct Yeah, don't make don't make people chase you. Correct. Like I if you're interested if you're not interested in a job. So Someone asks you for another interview or even makes you the offer luck. Tell them Don't blow it off. Don't. I've had I've had that happen to where this just happened actually. candidate was so excited during the interview, and we made her the offer. didn't hear anything. And I call just to make sure she got the offer letter. Couple days finally said, Yeah, got it. And then she declined. Well, I, I feel like we had it.

Leighann Lovely 25:35

I feel like it's turned into a world where people are just so scared of saying no to somebody. And I'm like, I don't care. It doesn't affect me.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 25:45

I really could care less. If you decide to take something else. That's fine. That's up to you. Do you just tell me? Or tell me you're not going to show up? Yes, we could probably do a whole show about this. Leann? Right. Oh, I know,

Leighann Lovely 25:57

we could I know, we

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 25:58

have opinions and feelings.

Leighann Lovely 26:01

It's, I just I feel like that's the same thing with you know, again, I'm, you know, I'm a hardcore salesperson, to on top of, you know, being a geek in the HR realm. But I hate if I'm doing a cold, I don't care if you don't want to buy my product, like and I don't say that as like a in a mean way. I would rather have you say, hey, Leanne, thanks for calling. But I am not interested in your product at all. Right? Then have you go? Okay, this sounds interesting. Call me in a week. Or just like, I'll stop calling you if you say like, I will never ever buy from you. I'll go okay. I'll just mark you off my list. And I will never call you again.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 26:47

Right? Like, just say no.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 26:50

Yes, this. Just say thanks. But no, thanks. Alright, so easy peasy. That's That's it, and then we move on.

Leighann Lovely 26:58

Right? Right, then I can move on with my life. And you can move on with your life. And we've agreed that you're not interested. But it's the maybe call me? I don't know. I can't. What is with the decision making? Process? Take a stand.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 27:14

Right? Because, right,

Leighann Lovely 27:18

Here's the line.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 27:19

Right?

Leighann Lovely 27:20

Don't stand on it. Choose one side or the other.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 27:24

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Leighann Lovely 27:28

So you utilize some behavior assessment tool, correct? Yes. And do you utilize that across the board just for hiring? How? Tell me.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 27:41

I use them a lot in the hiring process. Because that's actually I think, the best place to introduce to accompany the use the use of behavioral assessments, because it's just giving you more information about the person you're meeting. Because when you're meeting someone, hopefully, that's the best you're seeing right? You're seeing the best dressed, the best manners, the best. Smile, everything's the best. But what we really want to know is what are we going to get every day? And so using behavior behavioral, which I use behavioral and motivators assessments, but using those types of assessments gives you information about what are you going to see every day? What are you going to see when the person's not happy? What are you going to see when they're there, their kid was giving him a hard time or their spouse was giving him their significant other was giving him a hard time that morning, they got stopped by a train they got into, you know, what are you gonna see when when life gets in the way? And that's what you want to know about your people, not where not only where they went to school and what their experiences, but what how do they approach people problems, challenges, compliance procedures, things like that. So yes, I'm a big proponent, but I do try to incorporate for my clients that really like using those tools in the recruiting process, I do try to incorporate them into the communication process management process team building process with those companies.

Leighann Lovely 29:21

What are some of the tools, the assessment tools that it Do you mind sharing? Which ones you Yeah,

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 29:26

so I buy them, I'll give a plug for the company that has developed the specific tools that I use, it's TTI success insights. You can only buy their tools through a distributor of which I am and I've gone through training, I'm certified. There's many tools that can be utilized. But the two most popular ones that I use are the behaviors which tells you how which is disk. So lots of people are familiar with disk, so it uses the disk methodology. So it tells you how How someone behaves. The motivators. Driving Forces Assessment tells you why, what gets them up in the morning, what causes them to action, what's important, what's interesting, what, what, what's the why behind the how. There's also I also use EQ assessments, which we don't use in recruiting because those are not validated, or at least the company that TTI success insights, their EQ assessments are not validated to use in the recruiting process. But I certainly use those with employees of the companies that I work with when, you know, there may be some some issues with that just to help them improve because EQ can be improved, whereas behaviors and motivators don't really change so much. I have competencies assessments, which kind of looks at a variety of I think there's 25, different soft skills. So I'm a big proponent of using, but like I said, the behaviors and motivators are the most popular ones that I use in recruiting, and then and team building. Right? The EQ is kind of a one on one, it's not something you necessarily share with the rest of your team.

Leighann Lovely 31:15

Right? And so when you use those in the recruiting, I'm assuming that it's just a, Hey, I just want to use use this so that I can better understand some of the background drivers, you know, so did they do this before you interview them? After you interview them? How does that?

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 31:33

Well, since there's a cost associated with it, what we do is we use them to, we use them, once we get down to like the final two or three people. Okay, that's the point in the process, when we're interested, you know, at the first interview, we're not sure, obviously, not sure until you're finished with the interview, if this is the right person for our team, or we think it's the right person. So once we get past that first interview is when we do the assessment for the next step in the process. And also what I also use, and again, this is a process and a tool that I've used through TTI success insights. It's called job benchmarking. And so what we do, and this is done prior to recruiting, so what we do, what we're essentially doing is giving a voice to the job, if this job could talk, this is how it will behave. This is what would be important to the job in terms of motivators driving forces, and we and key accountabilities, what are the key accountabilities of this, why does this job exist? You know, why do we have this job in our company. And we do that we we use subject matter experts to, you know, those people who kind of touched the job. And then as candidates go through the process, and they do the assessment, we can compare them or I compare them to the benchmark. And this way, and we're not looking for an exact match, because we're never going to find an exact match. But what we can say is, this is what you said you was important before you met people. And you know, here's these people that you're meeting, which of course come with, you know, education and experience and skills and everything. And here's where they're off the mark, so to speak, right? So I you know, I don't say yes, hire No, don't hire. But essentially say, you know, low risk, medium risk, high risk, right, if you hire this person based on behaviors and motivators, you know, what's, what's your risk, right to speak. So, we use that to help in the entire process along with resume, interview references background check. And so I love to do job but Job benchmarking, because then we really know who's the best fit, right job.

Leighann Lovely 34:17

Interesting. Very interesting. So I've talked with a lot of people who who feel that resumes are just mean it's a great way to just like grab somebody's information really quick and see, you know, at a glance if they're qualified for the position, but I think the too many people put way too much stock in somebody's resume.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 34:45

Absolutely, and

Leighann Lovely 34:48

I and I've heard more and more people say, like, I I literally glanced at it, and then set the appointment if they are, if I feel that they're qualified, and then Never look at it again.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 35:02

Yeah, I, I, so I'm an old fashioned recruiter, meaning that I actually read the resume. I know, and I have an applicant tracking system. I'm not that old fashioned. So you know, all my resumes go into the applicant tracking system, but I don't use like keyword searches to find because I, I, I like to see how this person progressed, you know, right, try to imagine what type of decisions maybe they made along the path of their career. But yeah, I don't really use the resume a whole lot in the interviewing process. To me the resume and remember, resumes are not legal documents. So you can put whatever you want. The application form is the legal documents, right? But the resume you will, whatever you want. And I've had, I have one client that, you know, always tells me everything that's on his mind. And he's like, they've lied, they said this on their resume, and they cannot do this. And that's why we have to interview people. I mean, not that he hired, but you know, like, I said, Yes, people will call it embellishing. I don't want to call everybody a liar out there. But people embellish, right? Because they want to get the job. This to him, so many people want the job, like you have a great company. And it's a really interesting job and they want the job. So you know, but it's up to us to really, you know, ask the right questions, and to truly determine is this the right fit? And what's being embellished and what's not? Right.

Leighann Lovely 36:45

And, and again, it comes back to like, if you're looking at a resume for a quick second to determine whether or not this person is qualified. You got to make your resume look really attractive. Yes. So people are trying anything and everything to make it look really pretty. And in today's world, I've had multiple people say to me, Well, you know, this person has had three jobs over the last three years. And I'm like, yeah, they're like, they're a major job jumper. And I'm like, Yeah, but prior to that, they were at the same company for 20 years, or the same company. I see that a lot. I see. Right, and, and then I have to explain to my clients, like, think about what just happened in the worlds. I am seeing more and more resumes that have that have, they were at a company for 10 years. And then all of a sudden, they have these short stents just in the last couple of years, and

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 37:48

younger people like the people in their 20s, and maybe early 30s, like I have a 28 year old daughter. So her resume is not I mean, it's she's, you know, she wasn't sure what she wanted to do when she got out of college. So she tried this, and then COVID happened in the middle to right. She tried this, and now she's and and it's funny how, you know, when someone's been at a company for like a year, it's like, especially with the millennials, like it's a long time for them. I know, it's because it's not hard to get another job these days, because the job market is there's lots of jobs, there's not as I mean, there's, there's not as many people being born, as there were it you know, the baby boomers, like there was a lot of baby boomers, right? They're all.

Leighann Lovely 38:41

The average, what was it, it was three points 3.5 Being born per household, and now it's like 1.3, or something per household

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 38:55

people.

Leighann Lovely 38:56

There's right. There's, there's, there's less people, and because of what has happened with COVID, more people are on the move. And now we're in the conversations around culture and finding the right fit. It's all you hear about when you're on any type of at any events, you go to any networking event, you go to any, you know, event of any kind and we're in you. And there's always the conversation about how to make, you know, a better culture at companies. So when these young people or these, these individuals who have been at the same company for 10 years finally do decide, well, I'm going to dip my toe in the water and see if there's something you know, or they got laid off because of COVID and they join a new company, they realize wow, this company doesn't have great culture. Everybody's on the move. And so now you have even with these people who are like nope, I'm not a job jumper or all of a sudden making Multiple moves right? On top of all of the millennials who think that working at a company for a year. And and I keep saying just millennials and the Gen Z, Gen Z, Z. Yes, it's Yeah. And the Gen z's, who are all making these moves. So you literally have, like, the longevity factor doesn't exist in more recent years. And so when you're working with clients, and they're like, Well, I just, I will only hire somebody who's been at their last company, you know, the last, you know, for five years or longer, you're missing out, you're missing you, you will never hire somebody for this role. Because something that something cease to exist.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 40:46

Longevity and high performance are not not mutually exclusive. Yes, they're certainly high performers that have longevity. But there's a lot of people that have longevity, that are just skating by and they're doing fine. And the company has one of their they're filling a spot, filling his seats, and the company doesn't want to upset the applecart or, or the company doesn't want to feel like they're not being nice. So they just keep the person I see that a lot. When I you know, if a company will say, Oh, we have no turnover. And I'm like, well, is that good? Like is that like I do have these great people? Who are they not? Why are they not leaving, right? They don't leave, they don't know what else to hire them or

Leighann Lovely 41:37

No turnover doesn't necessarily know turnover completely, does not necessarily mean a good thing, especially if you've had no turnover, and hire nobody within the last, you know, for the last five years, which means that you're going to be in a world of hurt in another five years, because every single person at that company is going to be coming up on retirement, it is you you have to have some amount of turnover at a company in order to stay fresh, but stay on the cutting edge of technology in order to stay up to date on what's happening in the world and get fresh new ideas. So the blood, right you have to there has to be a certain amount of turnover built in in order to be fresh, fresh, just and not to mention. You know, kind of keeping things while we're just at it fresh, and I'm just beating a dead horse. It's I just I can't imagine working at a company that has 0% turnover. Right?

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 42:52

Right. It's it's that's not a good sign. Now, a lot of people, I mean, now they're calling it quiet quitting, but I've always called it, they quit, but they still come to work every day. Yeah. So I guess that's the definition of quiet quitting. But that's, that's gone on for years that

Leighann Lovely 43:12

They just become very disconnected, you know,

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 43:16

but they still show up, and they still get a paycheck. And but they're, they're checked out.

Leighann Lovely 43:22

Right, so and I would say that there is there's probably 30% of people who have been at their company for you know, longer than 10 years are probably just, you know, they're that that robot who shows up? And I guarantee that now they are starting to think

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 43:46

And this is nothing against people. I mean, there's lots of high performers with longevity. Yes, there are who progress in the company. Yep. Which hopefully opens up spots to bring in fresh blood, as you're calling it.

Leighann Lovely 44:03

So we are coming to time, and I want to get to the question of the season. So if you could change something about your job or the practice that people have in your job or role, what's, what would you change?

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 44:23

So the question is, what would I change about a job and human resources?

Leighann Lovely 44:29

Yeah, I mean, essentially, you know, you're in HR. So is there something in the practice that people do in your role that you would change or specifically in in your job? You know, I can give, like, 20 example. We speak of HR.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 44:48

Yeah. I mean, I guess you know, what I would would change which is not something that's going to go away, but I think there's a way that a company can deal with there's so much transactional stuff that takes place in HR is I would look to, you know, outsourcing that, or investing in systems to, you know, like HRIS system, and, you know, which is a Human Resources Information System, and ATS, which is an applicant tracking system, and really an electronic size, if that's a word, your files, you know, there's, there's so many companies that I go into, here's our fun, or they hand me a manila folder, and they go, here's our files, here's our personnel files. So, you know, get those scanned in and, you know, have the appropriate software to manage those those functions. So that's, that's what what comes to my mind. Quickly. Just trying to say what you said, the, you have a bunch of things. So what would you say?

Leighann Lovely 46:02

I mean, in the HR in the, the the practices of, of HR, you know, again, we've we've had the rise of people leaders. But when it comes to just in general, I would love to see that some of the legal aspects of HR be, you know, delegated a little bit more to, you know, especially the contractual stuff delegated a little bit more to, you know, an attorney and that that HR person be able to spend a little bit more time hands on with actual employees, right, letting the employees know that, hey, not only am I here for, you know, to root for the company, but you know, I'm also here as a as a person, you know, to root for you. And I know that there has to be a little bit of a disconnect, because again, at the end of the day, it is, you know, the HR person is that that kind of that watchdog that guard dog for making sure that everybody everything is in compliance, but the HR person shouldn't be the that hated aspect.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 47:16

Why do people hate HR so much, because you do a whole show on that. Right?

Leighann Lovely 47:21

Right, the compliance aspect, you know, they all good, there comes the HR lady, and because ultimately, at the end end of the day, when it comes to firing, when it comes to having to let somebody go, the HR lady is or shouldn't say, lady, the HR individual is the one who's usually called into, carry that out. Right. And I think that a lot of HR individuals become purposefully disconnected from truly getting to know and liking all of the employees that accompany because they know what the end of the day, if the supervisor or manager comes to them and says, You've got to fire Bob Smith. Doesn't matter how much you like Bob Smith, you've got to sit him down. Or Jane Doe, you know, you've got to sit them down, and they're going to have an emotional reaction that you have to stay professional through. Right. Right. You know, you got to walk them out the door.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 48:32

Exactly. Or, actually, this is sort of it's not a funny story. But it's an interesting story of the world we live in. I was involved with a termination just recently, and you know, it was me and the manager, the manager, how it was a zoom call, he was remote. He the manager hopped off the call. And so we alerted or not not me, but other people alerted the IT department, but they cut off the zoom. I shouldn't I shouldn't be laughing because it was I didn't know I actually didn't realize that that was what could happen. I knew we were going to tell them that it was taking place at this time and we would wait till I was done. And the guy called me and and I said oh, you froze up. But he said no, my computer was cut off. I felt terrible that and I just you know profusely apologize. And that is not that. That was not the intention to get it cut off right as we were in the middle of talking. Because I'm a firm believer in Yes, we we this person doesn't fit any longer the role that they're currently in. Our organization has changed. Our expectations have changed. We have a different bus that we're driving and they should be on a different bus than I Our company busts. And, but we always want to make sure that the person walks out with their head held high. They, I always remind my client I always insist on on scripting. The person who's who's delivering the message. And remember, they're a human being, like, yeah, we hate them, or you hate them, or you don't like them anymore. But they're still a human being, they have a family, they have, they have to, you know,

Leighann Lovely 50:32

and if you can, it's gonna be an emotional blow for them. And you never know how people when it comes to their livelihood, how they're going to react to that emotional blow, some people get very quiet, they shut down. And they hear very little of what happens beyond We have breaking out, right? So some other other people. I mean, and I've, I've I haven't witnessed this, but I've, you know, heard the stories of oh, he stood up, he punched a hole in the wall, and we had to call security we had to call I've never explained said either, oh, my God, you know, like, I guess it's you're, you're you're talking about somebody's livelihood. And it's so HR. In essence, you know, it's hard for people to become emotionally involved with their employees, when they know that one day, they may have to take the steps and deliver that emotional mastery.

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 51:32

And I've always found that the better you treat people when you're saying goodbye, the better the situation is, in terms of you know, is there some sort of, you know, lawsuit filed? I mean, some people are litigious, right? They're going to try to do anything. But I've, in my many years of being an HR, I've only been involved in one lawsuit. I've done 1000s of terminations, and there's only been one lawsuit where I was deposed. When someone said it was wrongful termination. And we won. That's great. She would have gotten if she had just signed the severance agreement. The first time she would have gotten more right than she what she ended up getting. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 52:22

So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 52:28

So I do have my website is get hr results.com. It's two Rs and their HR results.com. And my email address is S RR just like Susie Raymer Rodriguez s are at, get hr results.com If someone wants to call me 847-867-7307 Susie, thank

Leighann Lovely 52:58

you so much for this conversation. It's been awesome talking with time flew by so fast. So

Susan Raemer-Rodriguez 53:03

I know. I know. We could have talked I think for hours but I loved it. And I thank you so much for having me.

Leighann Lovely 53:10

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

hr, company, employees, resume, assessments, call, people, process, person, recruiting, interview, job, motivators, conversation, giving, behaviors, hire, clients, generation, change

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After climbing the corporate ladder into Executive leadership roles in Quality and Regulatory Affairs Rachel Kitzan has decided to venture down the entrepreneurship path. Rachel and her husband are opening a Rumble Boxing studio in Wisconsin later this summer, Rachel joins me to talk about the journey so far.

Contact –

LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachel-kitzan-486182165/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/rachel.kitzan

E-mail - rkitzan@ompimail.com

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Rachel Kitzan 02:59

It is such a pleasure Lian to be invited to be on your podcast today, and I'm excited to talk about HR and our experiences with it.

Leighann Lovely 03:10

Excellent. Why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Rachel Kitzan 03:15

Sure. Um, so I was born and raised in North Dakota, the southwest corner and my family moved to Wisconsin when I was a freshman so I am more of a Wisconsin night than a North Dakota person. I went to Kettle Moraine High School absolutely love the school district and actually my son who is 16 goes to the same school that I did, which is very, very exciting. Other than that, I graduated from college with a biology and chemistry degree moved into the world of laboratory doing testing on different varieties of foods, creating their nutritional labels. So Susie's cheesecakes, I'd figure out how much fat and fiber was in there. And so we would make sure that was on the label accurately for the consumers. I also had the opportunity to work in the thermal processing and canning industry. And in making Wolfgang Puck soup, San Amy's organic soup and Delmonte corn. So just a really interesting adventure for five years in that area before I stepped foot into the dietary supplement industry. And in my 1617 years, just the the last few years here in corporate. I worked for a company right in Elmira standard process for eight and a half years and had the opportunity to travel The world's auditing different facilities, making sure that there were high quality ingredients being sourced. And then also just that the facilities were, you know, holding up the dietary supplement standards for manufacturing. And then the last eight years of my career was really the highlight of my career, I was brought in as a senior executive on the team for in I was representing the quality side for Director of Quality and Regulatory Affairs and really became an authority figure on dietary supplement regulations and partnering with different industry leader groups, and also had the privilege to lead 45 people in a couple of different divisions within that that area. Both of my the companies I worked for only worked in the healthcare practitioner channel. So our supplements were not sold in the retail space, and very specific, very different philosophies, but both very great companies. And the last one I worked for was orthomolecular products, and their manufacturing site is in Stevens Point.

Leighann Lovely 06:18

Interesting.

Rachel Kitzan 06:20

That was kind of my career and my journey.

Leighann Lovely 06:23

So I've got first of all, this is this is a completely off the wall and it probably funny question up, how exactly do you figure out how much fat is in food like a cheesecake? Like how? I know you're laughing at me, but I'm like, I'm wildly interested by this, like, how do you figure out? How do you create those labels? And be like, Yep, this is got X amount of fat, grams of fat and grams of sugar. How does that work?

Rachel Kitzan 06:56

Nutrition, like nutrition, labeling regulations are complicated. So it is really interesting, when you walk up to your Cheerios box, and you see fat and fiber, there's a percent plus minus because everything's got a little bit of a different aspect to it. But the testing itself is old school testing soxhlet, you think of the glasses, and you're, you know, some experiment is happening, the, you know, behind glass and things like that. And it's just simple distillation, getting the fat out of the content and knowing the weights. It's a calculation. It is really interesting. But that's kind of the behind the scenes aspect, which was really my first step into regulation. But I didn't even at that time, I was actually just behind the regulation of labeling, Right. That's the CFR that,

Leighann Lovely 07:55

I find that and this is the geek and me coming out, you know, but I find that completely and totally fascinating, because, for me, I just want to go and eat everything in my kitchen. But the reality is, is that of course, we're all for some reason, we all seem to want to eat all the fat items in our kitchen first. Like, okay, yeah, then I'll eat some vegetables. But okay, so then you go from you go from as you progress in your career to actually being, you know, very, you know, high up in, in creating the regulations is that, am I understanding that or, or being part of a team that created some of those regulations, I'm

Rachel Kitzan 08:39

really trying to interpret and understand the regulation and apply it appropriately to the industry. And okay, and regulation is really interesting, ultimately, in the US with FDA regulation. And I was very lucky, I was able to actually learn a lot about Canadian regulations EU, Australia, which is the Therapeutic Goods Association, so I really was able to work with multiple different countries. And the US is really intriguing because dietary supplements in the US can be launched. So there can be a vitamin D K, two product and everybody should be taking their vitamin D even in the summer, so just take your vitamin D. But in multiple other countries, it's very similar to drug type of situation where you actually have to pre register your dossier and get a licensing number before you launch a product for your consumer. However, the FDA is a little bit opposite. They do post market surveillance, meaning they're there. They're really looking at kind of the After Effects. Are there things that happen that they start to see trends with or they'll come into facilities and inspect I mean, just make sure they're complying with the regulations. So almost look at it a little bit more trust, but they're very good at making sure that the, their priority, their number one goal is consumer safety. That's it. So when we look at that, when you look at the complexity and the ability to apply different regulations in different countries, it is very, it's varied, and kind of a vast arena. And that's why you have experts in different areas, and you collaborate with other regulators.

Leighann Lovely 10:34

Interesting. So. Okay, so that being said, what do you is there a country that you would that you think, Well, this one's doing it better than the other? Or is it just different,

Rachel Kitzan 10:51

it's just different. But what I will say is, Australia, the European Union, Canada, the way that they monitor things really suppresses diversity for a business. So in the US, there is a lot more freedom to trial, diverse type of products. Not that they're unsafe. But because there's a such such a specific regulation, if you have somebody that you have a limit of maybe your vitamin D, I use that you can have. And they need something more like a higher dosage or a higher amount, we we have that ability to provide that to the general public, not necessarily, you know, through a doctor or something like that. Whereas a different country might actually look at that as more of a prescription level. Interesting. Not that it's not available, but it's just a different model and how you would obtain, right, that type of of information. And so I don't think anyone's better or different. I think some of them are less complicated than others. Right?

Leighann Lovely 12:08

Well, and when I think when I think of the US healthcare system, it's just ridiculously complicated in every way. But we're talking about supplements that are not necessarily prescription, they're rather over the counter.

Rachel Kitzan 12:27

Yes, I love that. You say that. Because my the last several years, my passion really has transformed from traditional medicine to functional medicine. So instead of being reactive, the US healthcare system is extremely reactive. Very great, you, you tear your ACL, you are very thankful, you can get that replacement. And we have surgeons, and we have an amazing healthcare system. But from a proactive approach, doctors are spending five minutes with patients and all they want to know is what ails you. And here's the fix, here's the quick fix. And rightfully so a lot of people just want that. So it's training and transforming really the practice of medicine in people having a vested interest in their own health and being proactive with it, right researching what they need, because every single person is different. There is not a cookie cutter system, right. And that is really an interesting aspect. When you talk about how the health care system works, and how it can align. Even with dietary supplements, for example, if somebody is taking a statin drug, that conversation doesn't talk about what your body's being depleted of, which would be your co q 10. So your supplementation would be a dietary supplement or CO q 10. If you have to be on that pharmaceutical medication. So it's really an interesting piece. And

Leighann Lovely 14:05

I love what you just said that the US is there reactive 100% reactive that and in order for us to be more on the you know, the side of it. And last year, last year, I I, I decided for my personal health, I said this is going to be the year of me taking care of myself, this is going to be the year where I go to a chiropractor where I make sure that I have you know my mental health under control, which has been for a long time but just you know, again, it's just one of those things. I put it on the list of things that I need to do for me when it comes to my own personal whole, whole well being right. And if you're not your own advocates, doctors are not and I'm not I'm not trying to take a shot at doctors at all because they're so overwhelmed and so overworked that unless you go in there and you say, No, I need you to help me with this, you know, so last year, I got a chiropractor, I went and got a CPAP. I thought, I thought my husband was the one with sleep apnea. And it's not he doesn't have it, I have it. And it was like, Oh,

Rachel Kitzan 15:22

you're not keeping me awake.

Leighann Lovely 15:26

She's, but it was very eye opening, when I finally was an advocate for myself and started saying, look, here's the problem. And I need you to not just brush me off, I need you to actually pay attention and listen to what I'm saying. Because there have been times where, you know, the doctors like, oh, yeah, that's because of this, just take some allergy medication, like, well, I can't breathe out of my nose at all, take some allergy medication, you'll be fine. Okay, well, that's not fixing the problem. And then I ignore it. And I ignored it for five years. And it was like, okay, unless I go in and be my own advocate, and that's, that, unfortunately, is a symptom of the US healthcare system, is that they don't have time to sit down. And, like, actually dig in. And if you have, if you are a person that, you know, unfortunately, like what my husband and I just went through, he got a new job, I just stepped into entrepreneurship. So his insurance changed. And now I have to change all my doctors, because his insurance doesn't. So now all of the history that I have with this doctor on all of my background, I now have to go and talk to a new doctor and be like, Well, I have had this and I've had this and I've had that. They don't have time to sit and go through my entire history. So when I bring up oh, I've got, you know, a problem with my ear. That's the same problem I've had for 10 years. They just assume it's an immediate problem. Yeah. And they don't look at the 10 years of the exact same issue. That could be a part of a bigger issue, right?

Rachel Kitzan 17:01

Yeah. And it is, it's so amazing. You're going through that journey.

Leighann Lovely 17:05

Right? It's you have to be an advocate for yourself. And you have to be unfortunately, you have to be the squeaky wheel. Yes,

Rachel Kitzan 17:13

yes. I, I agree and when not to step in, but I loved what you said about, you know, MDS, these people are highly intelligent, they go into this field to care for people right? In, they spend a lot of money, time effort, they're dedicated. And it's incredible to me, that in their 468 years of studies, and internships and all every residencies and everything they have to do, they get less than a week of training on nutrition, less than a week, that's all that stuff. They can cure all these things. And they, they're they're so but they don't have that. And when they get into actual practice, it's a numbers game. That's how they're paid. They're paid by pharmaceutical drugs, right? That is how they make money. Making money in a private practice. And spending an hour and a half with somebody doesn't make them money unless they're dedicated to functional medicine, right? Or that's they're transitioning that practice. But our healthcare system is based on everyone getting paid through insurance. So what's interesting from an HR perspective, my team 45 people, all different age brackets, what I found so alarming in the last several years is when I would have students come out of college come into my laboratory, they're still under their parent's insurance till they're 2526. And all of a sudden, they gotta pay for a high deductible plan. And they're like, well, this thing's terrible. And I'm like, Well, you have to educate yourself. Right? And you know, what, what is interesting? I have known nothing but corporate. I had to turn 47 years old to figure out I could actually advocate for my own health care plan. And what made sense for us, so being able to learn from other small business partners to say, Rachel, what are you rate? What are you and Jason going to do for your employees? And I said, I want to empower them to have the ability to create a concierge kind of benefit plan. Right corporate benefits is great, fine, however you look at it, but I cannot believe the amount of money I was spending and never using it. I actually would pay more money because I was going to my functional medicine doctor certainly didn't have a cover that right? So I just sat there. I'm like, Why do I even have this insurance? Like why? Why am I paying all this money for this? When I could have had a whole different plan. What I found is when the younger population, it steps into corporate. And for me, I didn't know anything else you always got your insurance from where you worked in this is how it is because that's your benefits. That's what they offer you take the benefits, right, right. And now being able to empower and have conversations to say, there's a lot of options for you, this might not be the right option, you're single you're, or whatever it might be, right, you may look at this direct primary care, that's only going to cost you 59 bucks a month, and it is really going to cover everything you need right now. Right? Or in maybe you want to add this in, if there's something major that would happen, but it's still only $300 a month, right? versus $1,500. And I care and dental care. And like, you know, so what I have found from an HR perspective is that whole conversation about benefits is very different. And it was super eye opening to me when I walked away, and I had to be my own advocate and figure out what's right for us.

Leighann Lovely 21:11

So speaking of that, let's let's shift this conversation. So you have this, you know, you have years and years in corporate America, years of an amazing background of Yes, absolutely. And unclearly in a background that really, really has, I guess paved the way for the business that you are now launching this this summer? Correct?

Rachel Kitzan 21:42

This summer this summer? So

Leighann Lovely 21:46

what was it? What was the trigger in your head? What was the moment when you went? This is what we this is what I'm going to do? You and your husband made this decision together? Is that Is that right? Or was it one of you that went then then that is is absolutely amazing. So tell me about your business. Tell me about the journey to deciding and making that decision to open up your own business.

Rachel Kitzan 22:14

I love this. Because what I have found in meeting so many amazing people in the last six, seven months transitioning my life my day from corporate into a small business owner, I have learned an immense amount of information. But what I have found really interesting is the parallel backgrounds of people that either transition from corporate to entrepreneurial ship. For us, my husband actually was a hot guy, electrical engineer, worked for Rockwell Collins for about a year and a half and decided that was not for him. So he worked for AC T the college testing companies and IT procurement manager for 20 some years. And eventually I started to see this shift in him of slowly kind of dying corporate was killing the poor guy. So his passion is mountain biking. He's a long distance mountain biker. He's done many, many different events, several Leadville 100, mountain biking events, at the highest elevation, there's no oxygen up there. I don't know these, these people are insane, but they do it and they love it. So he's always had a passion. He's always worked part time at a bike shop. So he actually switched. Based on my career in where we were at, we were able to sit just say why don't you stop step away from corporate. And he started working for the bicycle doctor and Dousman and head loves it just loves it.

Leighann Lovely 23:50

So that's, that's, you know, when you get to a point where you just in? Okay, I was watching a comedy show yesterday, and I it and I'll be brief, but I was watching a comedy show yesterday, and a guy gets on stage and he starts cracking jokes about how he's works at at Olive Garden. And you know, I would never say to anybody who works at Olive Garden, oh, did I mention I work at Olive Garden and he's going and then as he rolls up his side and he goes, You know, so I left my my career at Olive Garden. And now I'm a chemist. And, you know, at the end, they do this interview and they're like, wait a second, how do you go from being a server at Olive Garden to being a chemist and he goes, Well, I have my degree in biology and chemistry and blah, blah, blah. I love when people when people you know, highly brilliant people make the choice. And it's because it just goes to show that there is no joy up out there that anybody should be ashamed of that there is there. It all depends on the person, my girlfriend, and I promise this because the guy he wasn't, he wasn't embarrassed that he worked at Olive Garden. He was pretending in this comedy show. But he was a wildly brilliant human being with a with a bachelor's degree that shows for most of his life to be a server instead of be a chemist. Yeah. And that, and that, to me speaks volumes to people's. Yeah, I went to school, it was interesting. Now, why did you decide to now go back into your field of study? Well, because I decided I wanted my nights and weekends to myself again. So I just decided to become a chemist, well, you don't just decide to become a chemist, you have to be really intelligent. And it's, it shows that when somebody corporate America, you know, I got burned out, I'm just gonna go and work at a bike shop. Great if that's your passion. And I think everybody should be able to follow their passion. Again, my girlfriend always joke, she's like, Oh, I'm just a server. And I'm like, You're not just a server. And you know what? You don't you make a ton of money. Like, yeah, yeah, you make bank. So don't tell me that you're just a server people come in, and they pay her a ton of money in tips, because she's really good at the art of what she does, serving people serving people. That that is there, that there is an art in that. It doesn't matter what people do for a living. It matters if they have passion for what they do for a living. Because no matter what it is, if you're really, really good at your skill, you're really good and passionate about what you do. You can you can become the master at that, and people will notice.

Rachel Kitzan 27:06

Absolutely. It is really interesting. I'm going to borrow a statistic from Sarah Deacon. And she had mentioned the other day that research has showed 73% of people that graduate from college never work in their field, correct. In their area of study, that's I was floored by that statistic. And yet, I'm like that I don't know why that surprises me is really true.

Leighann Lovely 27:35

The only reason that that number is not 100% is because we're taking into account doctors, accountants, engineers, and you have to go to school to become those. And usually, if you're going to go the long haul to be a doctor and go to school for that you're going to be a doctor, or an engineer or an accountant. So if you eliminated the doctors, the engineers, the accountants from that equation, you would probably have that number be 95%. Yeah. Because any other I mean, I suppose I went to school for you know, I got my bachelor's degree in business with an emphasis in human resources. Human Resource Management. I'm not in corporate HR. That's what that degree was supposed to set me up for. I spent very little time in corporate HR, I wanted to blow my head off. It was nobody liked me. Everybody hated me. And yeah, given I entered into that, you know, corporate HR in 2006. Yeah, of course, nobody was going to like me, because the whole world was shutting down. And I was part of, you know, helping lay everybody off. And then I was getting laid off. No, of course, nobody likes me. But the right. I mean,

Rachel Kitzan 28:56

Yeah, well, in that's no different than me getting a biology chemistry, I actually wanted to be a vet mad or you know, how life transition. So get the degree and who knew that I would be in the field that I was. And you know, it's interesting, because we talk about kind of preemptively my husband transitioning. And that's when it kind of dawned on me as much as I was at the height of my career, one of two women on the executive team. I was working 16 hour days traveling all the time. And during that transition, 2019 2020 things just changed. Things changed. So I made the decision to go to UW Whitewater in start getting my MBA online. And I loved it. Loved it. And that's when the spark happened about two things. One, we need an exit strategy because I can't keep this up. I'm never home I missing 50% of my son In my husband's life, and I love them both, and I liked them. They're cool people, so I want to be with them. We needed to figure something out. We didn't know what that vision was. But I knew it had to be something where we had the control to do it. And so that's really what occurred in the last couple of years. And in that I was able to really go through a major health journey just like you, functional medicine, lost 55 pounds, found my passion, again, for working out in different types of ways to move and be fit in Cairo and massage and other therapies and mental spiritual, all that thing that really put me in a place to have clarity that what we wanted to do was something with health and wellness because I want to care about people. Dietary Supplements transformed the practice of medicine, it's health, it's wellness, it's having that power to you know, make sure you're getting the nutrients that you need. I really felt in the health and wellness industry is where we needed to be in when we started to present options to each other and bounce ideas off. Cycling kept coming up in so we are members at cyclebar in Lake Country, Natalie Rick's owns that studio and she's amazing. She has an amazing community. Love the look the feel the energy of everything that that type of exercise does, but I do hot yoga, I do pure barre, I do CrossFit. I do you know all these other things. And then we began the conversation rumble boxing is a franchise and it is under the same franchise umbrella as exponential as the Franchise Group. But a lot of people will be familiar with cyclebar Pure bar club Pilates yoga six row house, Rumble is kind of a newest concept that just launched its it started in 2017. But launched as an actual boutique fitness studio at the beginning of last year. Okay, it's absolutely new in that was the vision for us. I'm like, That's it. When I started talking to nap, she's like rumble so awesome. People are gonna love it here. We have nothing like this in the Midwest.

Leighann Lovely 32:29

So tell me explain to the best of your ability. What is this?

Rachel Kitzan 32:35

So rumble boxing is a boxing inspired workout 45 minute group fitness classes. And it's not an open gym. So it really is a community of people coming together, we can host 48 people in one class at a time. In there's two different sides of the workout. So 50% of your workout is doing boxing punches, classic punch, boxing punches, Boxer sit ups, and you're hitting a water filled punching bag, it's 190 pounds, it's very gentle on your joints, but you're still have traditional wraps, you still have traditional gloves. Then the other 50% of your workout is custom benches and weights and Knuckles for your strength training and your hit training. And what we do in that 45 minutes is our trainer is going to go through the fundamentals in the beginning. But then we have three minute rounds where you're doing a specific either set of punchy routine or your your strength training, and then you will swap sides, three rounds in so you even out your workout. So when you go to sign up, you're going to go to your app, a beautiful, beautiful app and you're going to be like I want to start on bags 17 today, and so that's where you'll start your workout. So our studio, the traditional aspect will have about 30 classes offered a week mostly kind of those classic timeframes early morning, maybe at the noon hour and then your evening classes as well. So we'll have you know just it's it's a it's a boxing inspired workout in a studio in the concept really is like when you walk into our studio, it's like walking into a New York nightclub. That's all high energy, lots of lights.

Leighann Lovely 34:39

I just, I just feel like for somebody like me, that would be like the perfect like, I don't feel like I'm working out I feel like I'm going to release all of the stress and anger. Not really anger, but like all of the stress and frustrations of you know my my five year old who never stops talking. You know, I'll be too trying to do something I'll try and do make a phone call and she's just never never, that frustration of oh my gosh, can just stop talking for two minutes, she's at that age where it's just like non stop in the house where things are exploding, my dog is chewing something up and it feels like I'd be able to go into this place and just be like, Alright, I'm just gonna beat all that stress out of, you know, out of me and get a really solid workout in and then be able to go home and finally, relax. And at the same time know that I'm, I'm working all of my body, right? I mean, this sounds like it's a full blown physical body, Wonderful.

Rachel Kitzan 35:40

Yes. And you're spot on, all levels can do this workout in what I love about rumble I used to in the ring box, just as training, right? Not not I didn't wasn't competitive, but that any workout you think about, no matter where it is to step in, in that door can be intimidating, a little bit, right. And it's so nice when you can walk in and you have a community of people that are all there just to enjoy that 45 minutes, right? They're either stepped away from their job, they're, you know, the kids are dropped off. And they they that's their time. Our job as owners and our studio, what we are, an extension of us is our values, which is I'm not necessarily selling memberships, I am selling an experience, I'm selling a safe place for people to come no matter where they are in their fitness journey. No matter what's happening in their day, we are going to be there to look them in the eye and let them know that they matter. And that whatever happens in their workout, that day is just fine. If they just sit under that punching bag and just sit and drink water, it's fine, it doesn't matter. Do what you want to do that day, if you feel like you're just super full of energy, and you came on the air just dripping sweat and had an amazing, that's great, you know, and not every day is going to be the same. But providing a community and a place for people to put their phones away for 45 minutes, be part of a group in honestly, nobody's watching each other. Everybody's focused on what makes sense to them. And that's what's really important to Jason and I because as we open our Brookfield location, our plan in what we're committed to is actually opening to more studios in the area. So we want to make sure that that experience somebody has the first time the 50th time, the 200th time they feel the energy, they feel that warm hug when they come into that studio. And that is what is really important to us.

Leighann Lovely 38:00

So you hired your first employee. Correct?

Rachel Kitzan 38:04

Super close. Okay, so in the middle of we're in the middle of interviewing right now. So this is great. And this is our most critical hire.

Leighann Lovely 38:15

So and what position is this is this for is this for a trainer is this for? Right?

Rachel Kitzan 38:23

This is for our general manager. So this is our, our direct extension of us as owners, and you know what that General Manager will be doing, we will partner to hire our sales associates and our trainers and everything. But this position also is something that's long term, somebody who can help us grow ours, our team, our staff, and see something in people and say they're really engaged. They really love this they want to learn they want I think they might be a great trainer, let's let's get them certified for personal training, and can see that to help us grow within our team so that when we open the second studio, somebody might be ready to be an assistant, GM, right, somebody might be ready to take some of those leadership paths and then also have that same ability to grow and lead a team and inspire a team as well. So what has been really intriguing, we've used classic, you know, we have everything else job description, classic pathway post everything. But one of out of the candidates that we have, there is only one that really has applied independently, how I have been introduced to the best candidates that we have at this point. One approached us directly and was a great is a great candidate into You have been referrals from other small business owners. And that is a new way. And what I like about that is those business owners know me, they know Jason, they know the type of character in the person that we're looking for. I just don't want somebody that can sell stuff or has been part of a gym or anything like that I I'm really looking for somebody who can grow, that we connect with that there's that trust and respect in and we know our role. And we want them to shine in their role in it is different nowadays, because it is more about character, I don't really care where somebody went to school, that I look at resumes very differently. It takes me 20 seconds to look at a resume to see if I'm engaged. And usually I'll go to their extracurricular activities, what do they care about? Is that shows who they are. And I really like to look, and then it's the conversation about really understanding their character,

Leighann Lovely 41:04

right? I think that way too many businesses put too much stock in a resume. A resume is a sheet of paper that somebody wrote up, and you cannot judge somebody based on a sheet of paper anymore. I think that I think that too many companies will look at a resume and automatically say, Yep, I'm not going to meet with this person. Base based on the skills that they say that they have, I think that we need to stop hiring based on skills, we need to start hiring based on character and personalities, and all of that, and then train on skill. It's it, I'm sorry, either you are going to fit into the culture of an organization or you're not, and you need to hire based on whether or not that person is going to fit into the values, the goals, the and then if you have a great person who's going to fit your organization, you can train on skill. And I think that way too many corporate America, businesses are trained or and are hiring on skill, and then thinking that they can make that person fit into their culture. And the small, the small businesses like you that are just starting up, kind of have the upper hand when it comes to getting those great referrals, where, where unfortunately, they struggle is matching those high bloated salaries in that corporate America worlds or those rich huge benefit plans, or the four weeks of vacation, and all of those other benefits. However, a business like yours, you haven't created the culture, yet you are the culture. So you get to pick and choose who is aligned with you and your husband, who is going to align with your values. And that's going to determine from this point on if that person comes in and is aligned with your values, it's going to begin building the culture that you create at your business. And you're going to have to make sure that you're continuing to monitor that and hone in on that and really keep your you know, keep an active be actively intentional to create and monitor that so that as you grow as you open it up or up another branch that that branch also has that happy positive culture. And that's where again, the smaller companies and again I'm not advocating there are people who love corporate America that they love they love you know, everything that I'm I've been in corporate America but that's where right now you you know you've got the entire world you know, for the taking, because you you're just at the threshold of beginning all of it. And as long as you do it right the first time. You're not going to be in the boat that half of Americans in when they're saying oh gosh, we have a really shitty culture nobody wants to work here. Yeah, and fixing it is horrible. Creating it right? won't necessarily it's I shouldn't say it's easy but a hell of a lot easier than fixing it when it's wrong.

Rachel Kitzan 44:41

Exactly. And that is it you are spot on with that. You know, I've got a when I was in corporate a few of the last people that I hired I really did something that was like, totally against like the mold so you think of quality the part workmen, four year degree, they have to be, you know, that has to happen. And I finally got to a point and I'm like, you know, hiring some of these people and they're not all what they're cracked up to be, if that's my first criteria, I'm failing, because I'm giving up these 10 Other resumes that I could have just had a conversation with. And if they're diligent, hard working, willing to learn, those values align more than some of these people, just because they don't have a degree doesn't make sense to me. So Alas, of our of the couple hires did not fall in that mold. And I, I really had to fight for that from an executive outlook. And they're like, you're, it's on you, if it doesn't work out. And let me tell you, those worked out beautifully, compared to a couple of the other aspects. So I think, I love that it's the character, it's the value to and we were talking, you know, with our values, we, you have to reiterate them, you have to live by them. We have to show up on time. We have to motivate we have to listen to our employees and find out why, while they're engaged, how do we keep them engaged? Right, Gallup and all this, you know, how do we keep those highly engaged, because they're excited to be there. But me giving them a month free workouts isn't there like I can work out here anytime. Or maybe they want a gas card, maybe they just want some clothes, because we got access to all these amazing vendors Lululemon and they just want fun stuff, right? But listening to them, because every one of them is going to have a different motivational factor that is a benefit in their eyes. And I get that opportunity. I feel very, very lucky to have that opportunity as a small business owner to do that. Right, right. There's not all this extra stuff. And we can really customize what makes sense for you as an employee, because we want to take care of you. If you're showing up, you're diligent and you're you're really taking care of our customers, we're gonna reward you for that.

Leighann Lovely 47:15

Well, and you already you've already hit it on the head, not by anything that any offering that you said all you all you said that was perfect was listening to what the employee wants. Simple as that. If one employee says, I don't care about gas card, but I would really love $50 To Lululemon. Okay, that's easy enough. If your next employee says, Well, man, I'm driving all the way from, you know, Watertown to Brookfield gas card would be awesome. Yeah. I mean, okay.

Rachel Kitzan 47:51

Sure enough, I mean, we, it was interesting. In one of the conversations, I really shocked one of the people that I was having a conversation with, because they're like, Well, you know, this is membership based. So that's going to be really critical. And I said, What's critical is our culture and our values in the community we're creating, we are going to have some people that are not desirable in our studio. A, maybe they're telling jokes that are inappropriate and making people uncomfortable. Maybe they're spitting all over our floor, I don't know, whatever it might be. But I said, What I can tell you is, we're not we know how to have the conversation to ask them to go to a different place in a different community, right? I would rather than not be in my community, because I'm gonna gain five more people versus leaves 10 Because of this one, right? And in in, that is not who we are, that is really important. They just were floored. Well, that's really interesting. And I'm like, you don't take care of that in the moment. You you let us know. And we together side by side, are going to make sure that we follow through with that, because it's important that our team is taken care of, first of all, but then that community as well. So if there is somebody something occurs, and it is some however offensive, whatever it might be, or they're just not they skip classes every week, you know, I mean, something like that, you know, there's spots being taken up. And I said, that's where we come in. We're very apt, we're there. But we're not there to step on your toes, but we're always there. We will meet regularly, we will make sure that we're always talking about how are our values doing How's everybody doing? What does everyone need? And then are we meeting everyone's expectations from both sides, right. And that conversation is those stay conversations. You have to have them on all the time, very regularly, you can't just have one once a year, I love, oh, we do an annual review or whatever it might be. It's like you got to be talking to people all the time. Right?

Leighann Lovely 50:10

And Rachel, you hit it on the head, we are coming to time. But I want to just say something really quick this stay conversation that you just mentioned, if more employers were figured this out sooner, having say, conversations with employees having even just sitting down with them saying, Hey, we really love you, as an employee, we value you, more people would stay at their current employer and stop moving around. So for a brand new business owner, somebody who hasn't even opened up their first location, it sounds like you are way ahead of so many other companies out there. So I'm really excited to see what comes from you, you know, in the future and, and excited to see your, you know, your gym, would it be a gym community?

Rachel Kitzan 50:58

Well, yes, it is. Yes, yes. Thank you so much.

Leighann Lovely 51:04

I have the question of the season that I want to get to really quick. This may not apply, because you know, you're so new and what you're doing, but what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role in your job in your job role if you could

Rachel Kitzan 51:22

write being a very new owner, small business owner, president and understanding what that might mean? I'm the practices in in my role that I am definitely learning is the networking practice in it is very important. And I know there are seasons within the business, when we start construction or grand opening, I'm not going to be able to make those connections. But those connections have really changed, who I am in is developing who I'm going to be as a leader in that small business world. And I don't know that I was never, you know, necessarily change anything at this point. But just recognize that that has to be added into your your suite of time. And the other thing is, making sure you set that time aside. My husband told me the most hilarious thing about a week ago, two weeks ago, and I came home and I was like, wow, that was a really long, crazy day. I loved it. There was so much to tell him. But he looks at me and he's like, I just want to say this. You know, you're the one that makes your own schedule. And I just, I just started laughing I'm like, You're totally right. Um, yeah. Okay. But it's so rewarding. And I just learned so much, but that would be my my tip is connecting. I know it's it takes energy. It takes time. It takes coordination, but it is really, it's hilarious

Leighann Lovely 53:07

that you know, we as entrepreneurs think hamady becoming entrepreneurs so that I can have more time to myself, which never is what happens. Now all of a sudden you enjoy, you know, diving in. And there are times where I actually am like, I can't wait to get back to my desk. And the hell was wrong with Rachel, if somebody wanted to reach out to you get in touch with you. Or, you know, do you have a website for rumble yet that they can people can start you know, checking out or when it goes live that kind of stuff? How can people go ahead and get in touch with you?

Rachel Kitzan 53:51

Awesome. So me personally, my LinkedIn or my Facebook page is a great way to reach out to me, our rumble boxing. Brookfield sites are live. We already have members, we have members. So our founding membership is out there. We have our Facebook and Instagram which is at rumble boxing, Brookfield great way to go check us out, see what it's like we're posting there's some personal posts on there too. So just making sure to take a look at that in our website is live. So anything that you might have questions on just about the workout, what it might feel like in those emails, if you want to email through that website as well. That's a great way to reach out to us. But everything is live. We're all set to go and have really enjoyed everyone that has reached out to us so far.

Leighann Lovely 54:47

Awesome. Thank you again, this has been just in very educational conversation and I've really enjoyed talking with you today.

Rachel Kitzan 54:56

Oh, thank you so much for hosting me and I look forward Ready to having more conversations with you in the future?

Leighann Lovely 55:04

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, worked, workout, conversation, dietary supplement, rumble, regulations, doctors, corporate, rachel, studio, employee, hiring, interesting, husband, years, career, business, advocate, step

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This is one amazing conversation with an ambitious young professional that has made it his mission to pass on his positivity and success to Africans that are looking for an opportunity at great positions. Living in Nigeria nothing has been given to Joseph, he has worked hard for where he is and continues to do so. He helps others in the tech industry find great jobs, and declared on LinkedIN that his goal was to help 1 million Africans find jobs.

Contact Joseph

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/josephnssien

Website - https://wecruitme.com/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Joseph Nssein 02:02

Wonderful. I'm so happy to be here. Because this is actually the first podcast I have been ever. So it's it's kind of like new ground. So we am so excited to you know, these new grounds. Very happy to be here. Thank you, Leanne for inviting me.

Leighann Lovely 02:20

Yeah, well, part of the reason that I was excited that I'm so excited to talk with you is you would actually had an amazing post on LinkedIn that that intrigued me and I started following you. But before we jump into that, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and where you're from?

Joseph Nssein 02:40

Okay, okay. Oh, a little bit about myself. So, there's a lot to talk about, well, let me just try to pinpoint where to start from. Okay, so, I'm, I'm 22. I'm from Nigeria. My name is Joseph MC, and I'm from Nigeria, we are quite on stage. So, um, it's been, you know, it's been a journey, I'm still in the university. I'm a student, actually, I'm in my third level, in the university doing computer science. But one thing about me is that I've been really like, I really have this qualities in me since I was little, I always relates very well to people. And, you know, when I went out of high school, and I went out of high school, I basically, you know, I went into the work through space that is in blockchain, technology, and all of that. And that is where I kind of like build my career. And, you know, things really kicked off. And last year, that was around November, December, I really, you know, went fully into my career as a human resource manager. That is, from my costs, I should study from the University of Minnesota. That is where I got certified as a as an HR manager. And yeah, that's just a little about me. So I've done a lot of things. I've been a community manager for several web three projects. Being a social media manager. Well, I feel like my calling for now is in human resource. And I really love interacting with people meeting new people, you know, I really love it. So that's just a little bit about me.

Leighann Lovely 04:27

So one of the reasons or the way that I actually found you was from a post, excuse me, from a post that you had put on LinkedIn, it was actually a little story about about yourself and your background. And I was wildly intrigued by that because you followed that up by saying that you had a love for for human resources you had a love for helping others to find you know, jobs. And, and I've forgive me for stalking cyber stalking you a little bit. But it looks like you're very plugged into your community, you are very looking very much like you're you're trying to help your community as much as you can to Yeah, you know, assist them in finding jobs. And I would love to know more about your journey in finding a passion for that, and what you're doing to assist, you know, young individuals in finding their career paths and then finding jobs.

Joseph Nssein 05:32

Yeah, okay. Okay, this is going to be a pretty funny and sad story at the time. So everything started for me, I think, um, when I got off of high school, so I did a lot of things, right. So the first job I ever had, I had as a school teacher, lesson school teacher after school teaching to three kids. So basically, I was taking them on, you know, just courses, English, mathematics and all these basic courses. So during the course of my Steger, I think in a month, I was being requested to come and see the person, the father of the kids. So he asked me, if I, if I had a degree in teaching, that was a degree from the Nigerian from college. I was like, No, I do have a degree. And I'm not in the university yet in Japan. Well, I'm very good at what I do. I'm very good with mathematics with English and all of that. And well, he was like, No, we need a professional. Someone says why? And yeah, that was how I lost the very best job I had. And moving further when I left the job. Not really, like when I got fired. I went into I had a bunch of friends. We were We were very close. Always. Yeah. Okay, so we had this shop, he was a shop of my friend. He is into selling wines. He was selling wines for us. So we always get out there and kind of like discuss among ourselves. Yeah, we always go there to talk about how to go into the digital space, and stuff like that. So I'm basically taught my friends teach. Okay, Carl, you and Christopher, very good friend of mine team today, we started something, they went into web three, they were doing what we called bounty hunting. And then I was just I was someone that I was, I had a vision that I'm gonna do well in programming. So that was where my focus was. But something happened that really dragged me into that path as well. They had this Christoper bought a laptop. Yeah. That was just after, I think a few months after we got, we got up out of high school. And then a few months later, Siddiqui got a new phone. That was very intriguing to me. I was like, going, I literally, I went forward to ask them that, okay, you talked about this thing, tell me more about it. I would also like to come in and also, you know, do this thing. And then that was when to get actually brought me into the entire web three space, taught me everything I needed to know. And I started I started my journey, that back then I was kind of like writing articles. That was for my boss. Her name is soft mine. So I was just writing articles for hire for starting that was around 500 words, to 1000 word article, and I think I was being paid around 509 I don't think that's even up to $1. So, um, that was what I was being paid. And in cost of time, I think during the COVID hit, and everybody went back, I was in school then I got admitted into the University of New York to study computer science. And during that period, I went back home. And in school, I was living in a one. Just one room. So the bathroom that was shared. You know the toilet was a shared toilet and you just have your one room that was the kind of room I was with my prep that somewhere. So when I went back home, I told myself that yeah, I'm never going back to that kind of life. I have to make something out of myself before I go back to school. And then I really went into writing articles for her. I could I write Around 10 articles to 15 articles baby so that I can raise around 5000 Naira to 10,000 every day. So in cost of this, I, I had a job from teacher K, my friend, he told me that the community is working on is looking for people that can make the, your community active. And it would like me to, like manage one to like, be among them. I was like, yeah, no problem, since it's gonna be a little better. That was like, every month, I'm getting like, 6000. There. It was, it was good for me that I said, No problem, I'm gonna do it. And I started it. And in cars, before a month, the owner of the community saw what I was doing. And he was like, Yeah, I was really performing well in the community. And it would love me to be able to contribute to their product. That is, anytime they have a new products are put into the market, I should review the product, give them my feedback. And then before they release it into the product. And that was our goal. My first job of $200 now was $200 a month. That was around September 2020. And going further, that was during December to January, yeah, during December to January, I got my first P, I got my first P and had two options with a B, this was the crazy part had two options for the B. So first, I wanted to get a laptop for myself. Then my mom, she did not have a phone. It was like crazy decision. My mom, she did not have a phone and I was like, What am I gonna do, it was like a crossroads. So I got my mobile phone. And I don't know, it's just everything was just like nature's blessing. And the day I got my mobile phone, I got another job with a venture that was x y ventures. It was a web three venture. That was how I got my second job, I just got a text from him to telling me that I've been doing well in the community, he's been noticing my work that he wants to do, he wants me to come to the activities in his community and the project is working on. And that was how I got my second job. And I actually got around three, four jobs from him, which was a pretty good income for me. That was how I that was just immediately after I got my mom her phone, and then I got three jobs the same day, I got myself a PC and a new mobile phone. Then moving for the moving for the I definitely I got into, I got connected to Mr. Andrew, even to a venture where basically, I began working for him. And then that was when he needed more steps to the projects most of to the company. And it told me if I knew anybody, and that was when everything started kicking off, I started referring people to jobs to him, you know, I started, you know, just I didn't even know what I was doing or basically even results I was at. So I basically started doing these little things for him recruiting people to the, to the venture to protect different people, both people, I think, things people I recruited was born from Africa, and from India, at most powers, people are actually focused on recruiting them. And time shoots so fast. From 2021, I was really doing well in the web three space, and 2022. During the everything, you know, the bear market kicked in, everything was kind of down, but I was still doing well by the grace of God. Then moving further, he got to a stage that Andrew wanted to start his own personal another company, a real estate company. And he I was asked to he asked me to bring up stuff that will work with him. So I approached the staff, they really did well. And he was so happy with the results he was getting. And he told me he told me something that was where everything just clicked in my head. He told me something he told me that. Do you wonder what a concierge service is? I said no idea. And he said a conscious of is that I could actually help people help companies recruit and find talent, especially in Africa, that a lot of companies are trying to move into Africa to like find talent in Africa. Because that was when that clicked to me when he told me that he told me I should look into it and give him feedback. And I did that was when I discovered the human resource and everything that was last year. And when I saw that I decided to you know know more about him. I watched a lot of videos on YouTube and I asked a lot of questions to people I know. Then I saw this course on Coursera that human resource costs To manage who is a specialization, I decided to take it. And I've been practicing since then. That is, and when it comes to my aspect of helping Africans, I grew up I grew towards point, African is a place that a lot of people find it very hard to grow. So my friends helped me to get started with my career. And ever since then I have always offered to help people get started in the, into the in the directory space. And in any other digital, these things are free, I don't charge, I basically help them, you know, get started, I think for the past two or three years that I've been here, I've helped almost 20 people and more, get really good things in the space, they have started up the NPR doing really well today. So I taught them from the beginning, from everything, the basics till they get the advanced knowledge. And it's really something I really, really makes me happy when I see young people grow. I mean, it was something that I had the opportunity to learn. And I said, Okay, I can't have this knowledge alone, I spread it out. And that was where we've been kicked out till I had the idea of starting the company where I can really focus on, you know, helping young people in Africa, you know, making them competitive in the job market as well, because there are a lot of young people out there with lots of talent, beautiful talent, I see them every day, but they don't have that opportunity. They don't have that stage that I had. So given them that stage to really go out there really do something of with their lives and really make an income for yourself. It's something very, it's something in me that I see that I must achieve this. That is why I don't know, that's how the whole story of how I am here to be.

Leighann Lovely 17:08

So now you had mentioned something you say that you don't get paid for assisting people in finding different for in finding jobs.

Joseph Nssein 17:20

Yeah, that is that is for? That is when I started. Yeah, that is when I started, I recruited young people, you know, and get them into the company and into different roles. I didn't, I didn't charge anything, I didn't charge anything. They were good. It was for free. But now the company is fully active, the company is really active. We will be it will be a commission based on these things from the company, not from the, you know, talents that are recruiting.

Leighann Lovely 17:55

So you're set up very much like a staffing company would be here in the US done, which is yes. Okay. Well, excellent. And it sounds like once you found your path, you're the passion. I mean, just listening to you talk the passion that you have is I mean, it comes from your soul. It it comes from, you know, deep within me, it just comes out in your world. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah.

Joseph Nssein 18:29

Thank you. Thank you. I mean, it. It's something that, you know, every time we think about the number of young people out there looking for just that one opportunity. Yeah, they're looking for that one opportunity, someone that will give them a chance and say, okay, just do it. Just try these, some of them are so lost, they don't have a portfolio. They are just I meet a lot of them every day. And they told me and some, a lot of them have sent me messages. I mean, every day, I have over 20 messages from a lot of Africans telling me that, okay, they want me to mentor them. They want me to, you know, find a way to show them how they can get started with their different digital skill. So active skill sets already. Some do know how to start from LinkedIn to Twitter, even physically in the university. I have a lot of them in the university that come to me every day and tell me they want to you know start up something with your life they want to because in Nigeria presently, there's literally no jobs in the country. That is the sad thing. The government is not helping the people when it comes in terms of jobs. So everybody so simple, that digital skill outside and it's they're finding it hard to do so. And when it comes to the problem of electricity in the country, problem of internet connection, and all of that it's just weighing down on young people, so they just need that direction. Someone to show them that part. And that is what I really look forward to, you know, building to do. So that I know from the my mission, my mission is to my mission is to raise 1 million Africans to be competitive in the job market. That is my goal. And I hit a few of their numbers, I think around 20 and get a lot to go. But yeah, we can do it, I know that I can do it. I know, I'm going to send the wrong, young people out there to be competitive in the job market. And they can come back and see in future that, okay, Joseph, NCI helped us do this. That is what I am looking out for myself, that is what I want.

Leighann Lovely 20:48

Well, and that's part of what intrigued me and one of your posts is that you had said, my goal is to help a million, you know, individual or African, you know, individuals Yeah, find opportunities, and to make a statement like that, and to have the passion that you have at such a young age. You know, that's, that's amazing, I commend you. But to also to also have risen. You know, through what you've gone in, don't get me wrong, I have no concept of of your life, I obviously, I'm growing up in, you know, the United States, I have no concept of what you've what your life path has been like, but to to be the voice to go out there and to continue to follow your dream, while being a bumpy one, while being you know, it's No, nobody's life is ever a straight path, right. But you continue to post you continue to, hopefully, provide hope for everybody in your community and beyond your community, which is why I was so drawn to you, because you clearly have a vision. And I love that. I absolutely. I absolutely love that. And if there's anything that I can do, you know, to help push that vision of yours forward through even the smallest soundbite out there. I'm, I'm all I'm all about that. So let me ask you this. How do you go about getting your clients? Are these companies that you go to? Or is it you had mentioned a boss? How do you? How do you know where these jobs are and available to help these individuals? You know, ended up employed out?

Joseph Nssein 22:48

Yeah, that's a very beautiful question. The thing, the thing with the job, one thing is that it's something I've been doing for the past two years, three years, something I've been doing. So I really, I really have the, I don't know, it's just, it's just happened sometimes. Yeah, on some I got some of the jobs is to referrals from the dependent companies I'm connected with. So especially in the web space now. So lots of them, you know, startup and my bosses are connected with different projects. So when they have opportunities, and when they have openings, they are basically going to ask me to Okay, we have these openings, can you find someone that could cover it? And that's where I go ahead and, and also, personally, I also send, I also source for jobs on LinkedIn. So see, for an example, a company should put up an ad on LinkedIn, about a rule, they have openings, I always go to them to tell them that, okay, I have, I have, I can bring somebody for the show that could really satisfy this position. And then they might go, and a lot of them always send back a reply and say, Yeah, go ahead, and you know, fine, bring someone and I would go ahead and you know, find someone and give them and on Twitter as well. Twitter is one of the beautiful networks I love using when it comes to job hunting. And also, not even hunting it myself. There's also some things that actually do as well, when I see openings that I know that okay, I don't have a talent for this, but I know someone that could benefit from this, I can always share the the job opportunity to them and tell them okay, this is how you go about applying it so that you don't mess up so that you get it right. The first time you can actually get the interview. I kind of like give them the guidelines, how to set their resume, how to write the cover letter and all of that so that when they apply, they actually learn to grow. So yeah, I have a lot of other strategies I add together to make sure that at least every month I know that It's okay, I've given job opportunities to at least two or three people for now. And maybe in the future, you know, do more for, you know, more people.

Leighann Lovely 25:09

Right? Well, and it's in this in your processes is pretty much, you know, the same as what, you know, we do what I have done historically, as you know, my background being in in recruitment and placement. And so it's, you know, shows that no matter where you are in the world, you know, the process is the same. What are some of the greatest challenges that you have? And actually, let me ask you this first, do you recruit mainly in the tech space? So technology? Do you? Do you mainly in the technology space?

Joseph Nssein 25:43

Yes. Mainly, we recruit in the technology space. But recently, recently, we've had, I've had other people reach out to me, having other people reach out to me to kind of like, you know, bring up steps for them physically, for companies physically here in Nigeria. So different companies are featured, I think some few real estate companies and other administrative companies like that, you know, reached out to me too, you know, like, get some people for their roles they have available. So, but mainly mainly mainly, majorly, it's for the technological space I have people recruited for.

Leighann Lovely 26:24

Awesome. And so what are some of the main challenges that you that you come up against?

Joseph Nssein 26:30

What you say other things, I'd venture into direct? Did I get direct

Leighann Lovely 26:35

challenges? Other some of the challenges that you come up against?

Joseph Nssein 26:40

Okay. Well, firstly, let me just start with the challenges I literally have right now. Press is. See, we, we, sometimes I, sometimes the electricity is very bad, that you cannot power your system or your phones, that it could be bad. Like, I think this past few days, we had electron shortage of electricity for about two days. And we had to run the generator of that is really, really number one challenge. And secondly, it's the internet connection, or to the place I moved away from the place I was before, please, I am right now. Please, I am right now. It's we have really good internet connection. So that was another challenge I had, and going into the aspect of job hunting, right. You will get some for the job, you will pass the interview, and which obviously each onboarding and everything be expected to. So that was another challenge that I had. And again, it has some kind of roles that are not really easy to do, I had to spend these, you know, even sometimes weeks to find the right candidate for some engineering roles. So that is like a few challenges have had.

Leighann Lovely 28:14

And so are the majority of these roles. Are they all remote roles where these individuals are? I mean, are any of these individuals on site?

Joseph Nssein 28:26

Yeah, no, oh, guys have worked for all that I have remote roles. So the particular one was for a, a blockchain engineer that had gotten used on smart contracts and below other distinct specifications for the job. So when I think it took me about three weeks before I could find the right person for that role. I had to search everybody that came up. After the interview, you see, they were lacking one thing or the other. Some did not have the complete skill sets needed. And it was just so it took me three weeks. And finally, I found that I could actually do it. And after the interview I presented is still with the company today. And he's doing absolutely well in the company today. It's crazy sometimes.

Leighann Lovely 29:20

Right? And as far as your clients, are they are they all in one particular area? Or are they I mean, the majority of your clients, where are they located?

Joseph Nssein 29:35

Okay, um, majority are in the web three space, I think, if you few, one is from the real estate industries and the jobs in the real estate, and E he has a lot of requests every time because it's a large company. So I think every day they always need subs. And that's one thing that's amazing with that I And we'll majorities from the web three web page.

Leighann Lovely 30:03

But I mean, are they? Are they physically located? You had mentioned, you know, finding jobs in Nigeria is there's just not the jobs there. Right. So are the clients, Nigeria? Or are they in Africa? Or are they in another country?

Joseph Nssein 30:20

Yeah. Most of them are in another country. Only a few in Nigeria.

Leighann Lovely 30:25

Interesting. So that gives you I mean, you are, you're basically an international recruiter.

Joseph Nssein 30:34

Yeah, you could say something like that. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 30:38

I mean, that that's really that's, I mean, if you're working, you're you're placing candidates, you know, across, you know, countries rights, which is, yeah, that's a skill, that is definitely a skill, you're doing everything remote. With limited resources. If you're struggling with electricity, internet connection, that throws a whole nother challenge. And yet, it sounds like you're successful at it.

Joseph Nssein 31:09

Yeah. You know, you know, when I started all of these, you know, I don't, I'm someone that looks like you can pass limitations. Yeah, I do. I don't really see that as limiting to me. Because sometimes when I don't have electricity, I just, you know, find a place a cyber cafe or something like that, you know, to go, just go work there. That was what I've been doing for a while before I got myself a generator to, you know, so when I don't have the when there's no electricity, I could justify to myself. And I have a lot of experience around the web three space and working with international clients, which made it a lot easier for me to relate with different companies internationally. Yeah, so that was why everything seems so smooth. Because I hunted for lots of jobs of different companies, I think I've worked for the Chinese have worked for someone in India focus on when in the US, according to someone in the UK, and pretty much a lot remote work remotely. So it's been fun, you know, meeting different people talking with different, you know, meeting different managers, it's been fun, and with all that experience, so when I go out to look for jobs, for other people, it's really kind of smooth, I know how to relate with them. And I know how to tell the person I'm recruiting that, okay, this is how you're going to, you know, manage your job here, when you go here, this is the kind of things you do, this is the kind of things you look out for, and none of that. So keeping the person very ready for the job, so that when they go in there, when they are on boarded, they know that, okay, these are the kinds of norms that are accepted. This is the cultural thing of the company, and that they can basically position themselves very well in the company. Well, I always tell them, especially those from Nigeria, to some hiring from Nigeria that, you know, you should always be prepared, you should always have backup for everything, so that you don't get lost in your jobs, especially when it comes to internet connection. There might be a DD that some network suppliers will, you will have network for an entire day. So I always tell them to you know, have different internet service provider so that when this all goes you, you can jump on to the next and still continue working that you should just look past the limitations that are in Nigeria, because yeah, if I can do it, you can do it. If someone out there, my friends could do it. We could do it, then definitely do it. That's my circle. You know, we said taxes, we set goals for ourselves every year. And we have like a end of year meetup where all of us come back because when right now we are not in the same state anymore. I went to the University, some of them went different places in Nigeria. So at the end of the year, we all had that goal that we said, we come back together to like talk about and figure out something new for the new year. So that is how we just been you know, working together.

Leighann Lovely 34:20

That's amazing. That's that's absolutely amazing. I'm, I'm in awe of you. And I just I just want my audience to know that one. And I don't mean this as an insult, Joseph, you look like you're 12 I know that you said you're 22 But and Joseph has a huge smile. And when I said that, just as my audience can't see. But you know, you look you look extremely young. You clearly you know, have one drive you you clearly have true authenticity, which is why I was so completely taken by the post that you put out on LinkedIn, because in today's society, today's world, I truly believe what gret what people want to gravitate to. And the reason that people gravitate towards people like you is because you through your you through your story out there. You didn't hold back, you told you know your story about who you are, where you came from, and, and a little bit about, you know, how you came up. And I absolutely commend you for that. Excuse me. And all I can say is just continue doing what you're doing. Because you're helping people, you're helping people in your community. And that's what I would implore everybody to do is that the only thing that we can do is to try to help the people that that are in our own communities. And if more people did that we would all live in a better world. Yeah. But you know, this has been an awesome conversation. We're coming to time. And I'm going to ask you the final question of the season. I don't know if this applies, because you know, well, I'm going to ask you, the question of the season is, what would you change about your job, or the practice that people have in your role of your job? If you could change anything?

Joseph Nssein 36:18

Okay, if I could change anything in my job? What would that be? Right? Did I get you right? Sorry? Yeah, I think really get the last part.

Leighann Lovely 36:26

Yep. If you What would you change about your job, or the practice that people have in your role? Like doing your job? If you could change something about it?

Joseph Nssein 36:37

Okay. Okay. I do, I think, if there's anything to change it to be kind of thinking, because I don't believe though, I would say, Okay, let me just see if the change should be adding something, let me just put it like that change was to add something, I would really love to add languages, like different languages to myself, right. So that I can communicate with people in different languages. Because sometimes I think, when you when you want, especially when it comes to technical rules, and stuff like that, when you really want to communicate with someone, there is, I think, especially in Nigeria, where we have a lot of languages, lots of languages, sometimes these technical things have needs to be broken down into the language so that they can really understand what you're talking about. So that will be one thing I would really love to do. If I could, if I have the ability to change it out of working, let me speak like contract law, which is, I have to be really smooth, obvious that I can communicate with the people, I want to be very better, you know, when I go out there, and when I talk to them, I could talk to them in their language. And they would really, you know, understand what I'm trying to see. So that would be a change I would love.

Leighann Lovely 38:00

Don't you wish it was like a like our brains were kind of like a computer where you could just plug in that language and just know.

Joseph Nssein 38:09

Exactly. You just plug in the language as you can, you know, you have the thing. That will be

Leighann Lovely 38:18

one day that'll probably exist or something, won't it? Let's not get there. Well, Joseph, this has been, this has been such an amazing opportunity. I'm, I'm honored that you said yes to coming on and talking with me. If somebody wanted to reach out to you to learn more about you learn how they can work with you to help have you help them find a job or a company that wants to reach out to you for recruiting efforts, how would they reach out to you?

Joseph Nssein 38:53

Okay, so you can reach out to me via my email at Joseph cn@gmail.com. Also, you could reach out to me on LinkedIn. at Joe's just search for Joseph Nssein. I could be the press profile to pop up. And then on Twitter, you can reach out to me on Twitter, my Twitter DMS are always open double underscore Big Joe. That is my Twitter name. And I think yeah, those are the three means you could reach out to me and also you could go to the website at WWE Kreutz media.com W E RS WEC, our view it and e.com You could go to the website and you can see all the contact information there and you can reach out to me and also you can reach out to Leighann, you can connect with me on LinkedIn

Leighann Lovely 39:52

And that will all be in the show notes. So if you are looking to reach out to Joseph you will be able to check the show notes where that will be listed and Again, Joseph, this has been an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for the opportunity to talk with you.

Joseph Nssein 40:05

Thank you. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it. And I would really want to see one last thing, these quotes from I really like using it, especially to young people, they like telling them that the only the only limit to your impact is your imagination, and your commitment, something Anthony Robbins used to see. So despite anything that's happening in your life, despite anything that you're going through, just keep your brains keep your imagination on the goal that you want. That is how you conquer everything. When your brain when your mind is fixed on that being when your commitment is still on that thing and you have that consistency, you will achieve anything. So thank you very much Leighann it's so wonderful, conversing with you.

Leighann Lovely 40:55

So much wisdom from such a young person and well said thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

job, people, nigeria, company, joseph, recruiting, day, electricity, internet connection, web, roles, find, linkedin, africa, university, community, space, life, friends, talent

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Traci Scherck is a business owner that focuses on building HR teams to help create best practices from the ground up. She and I had a great conversation about her 4 step process and the different seasons of life that we all go through. Traci is a podcast host, HR coach, and all-around Leader in her field.

Contact Traci

E-mail - traci@elevatedtalentconsulting.com

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/traci-scherck

Podcast - https://elevatedtalentconsulting.com/podcast-2/

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Traci Scherck is the Chief Strategy Consultant and Owner of Elevate Talent Consulting. Traci is a certified HR professional. With nearly two decades of experience in employee development, and engagement, performance consulting and training facilitation. Traci began her career in retail and nonprofit organizations building inclusive teams to best serve her client base. She was responsible for building an HR department from the ground up including training and talent development programs. Each of these programs focused on culture and organizational impact. She transitioned into healthcare consulting with a long-term care center on developing and creating talent pathways into and through their organizations. Traci worked one on one with business owners and management teams to improve manager effective pneus to communication coaching motivation, conflict resolution, and performance management. Traci uses her consulting expertise to serve clients in applying behavioral concepts to hire and selection, designing and implementing talent pathways, coaching, motivation, and more. This is going to be an awesome conversation with Traci. She is a talented and brilliant woman.

Traci, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Traci Scherck 02:45

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Leighann. So, my name is Tracy shirk, and I love working with organizations on ensuring every employee is fulfilled in their work and meeting the business outcomes. So the background to that is, you know, really growing HR departments from the ground up for the last 20 years.

Leighann Lovely 03:10

Awesome. That's okay, so how did you I'm sorry, as we're having this conversation, I am trying to cool myself off because I have COVID here. So it's gonna be a fun conversation, Tracy.

Traci Scherck 03:27

Hey, guess what my one of a member of our team had COVID Last week, and she called me looking like you are right now Leanne, and I told her to go take a nap.

Leighann Lovely 03:36

Right. So I appreciate you putting up with me.

Traci Scherck 03:41

Oh, thank you for having us. Absolutely. And I think that's like a fun conversation. Right, right. You know, as we look at HR, you know, how do we play with this work life balance? How do we play with COVID and dogs puking behind you? And you know, all the crazy things that happen, right, like from this work from home environment? And here we are.

Leighann Lovely 04:04

Right? Absolutely. So why don't you How did you tell me how did you get started in your I mean, to go out on your own? How did you get started and then decide that it was time to go out on your own?

Traci Scherck 04:18

That is such a great question, Leighann. So I was working for a top 50 CPA firm doing HR consulting for them. So they had a consulting arm of their business. And what I found was culture is so incredibly important to being happy and fulfilled in your role at work. And what I found was it was a great organization. They were very process focused. They also were an organization that had a lot of controls in place. I mean, it was a CPA firm, right? And for who I am I especially when you have a sales role and those types of things. I needed to have more autonomy In my role, and so what I found was that I was frustrated with the culture because it wasn't a great culture fit for who I was. And so that was kind of one of those key things. And then the second thing was I saw, especially for small organizations that they really needed support in building the HR function from the ground up. So what I was doing is going in and doing what I lovingly called, butt in seat HR, versus training and elevating someone internal to the organization, which in the long term is lat is more cost effective to the organization versus an outside firm staying in the HR role for ever. And so that is what I went out to do.

Leighann Lovely 05:49

Interesting, and, butt in seat HR. And I love that. I love that.

Traci Scherck 05:57

Right? Like, your butt is in the seat, and you're doing HR all day long. Right? You know, right?

Leighann Lovely 06:05

No, absolutely. Absolutely. So you you're a, you're a trainer, you're a coach, you work with HR professionals to help walk through and you and I had previously spoke, you know, kind of about like a four step process that you walk them through, correct? Yeah, so for sure. Let's talk a little bit about that, and how how that approach helps them and kind of your philosophy on that.

Traci Scherck 06:33

Yeah, absolutely. So Leon, you just said, Hey, you've got a four step approach that you walk folks through to build their HR departments from the ground up. And I want to start from the end and work my way to the beginning here. We're going to do it backwards. But how we came up with that four step approach? And what it is, is we looked at, you know, what has employees be engaged in their work so that they produce in their meeting the business outcomes, and they're fulfilled in their role? Right? So when we looked at what are those drivers are those levers to engagement, there's really four levers to engagement, the first is fit to roll. Are we hiring individuals into the right role? Right? And so we call that hire, are we hiring them into the right roles so that we've got fit to roll? The second lever that we look at is, once they're in the role? Are we really inspiring them to perform their best. And so that has a lot to do with a manager, right? So is the manager leading them the way they need to be led? The third level that we look at is we look at the team. I don't know about you, but I've worked on some amazing teams. And I've worked on some teams where I felt like bonk, bonk, bonk on my head all day long, like, I couldn't do anything, right. And there was always this like one upmanship. And well, I did this better than you. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I cannot do this. So that team environment plays a significant role. And then the fourth lever is the organizational culture. And I kind of talked a little bit about that at the top of the podcast. So the four step process that we walk individuals through to build an HR department from the ground up, has to do with are they in the right role? Do they have a leader that is leading them the way they need to be led? Are they on the team so that they have a team that is executing a very specific strategy? And are they the right player on that team for that? And then the fourth is, do the personal values align with the organizational values? So you know, that four step is hire, inspire, design and engage?

Leighann Lovely 08:54

Awesome, so Okay, so now in you said, you work, you work your, your way backwards on those rights. So when you go in, the first thing that you that you work with, or you talk with, I'm assuming with an organization is making sure that you understand what their values are?

Traci Scherck 09:17

Right, so So absolutely. So it's understanding what their values are. And when we walk into an organization, my first question is always, what's your pain point? Right, right. So because if I understand what their pain point is, I know where to start. Right? So it may be that we need to start with hiring the right people and getting that infrastructure in place. It may be that we need to start with you know, hey, we just lost our five best employees and we don't know what we're going to do. So we need to focus on retention, it may be that it truly is values that they want to redefine their organizational values, and you know, really have those tightened up So it really depends upon what pain point they present with. And then yes, we always get into the mission vision values because it threads through absolutely everything. But it's a yet we want to ensure that we're meeting them where they're at. So we're solving that key problem that they have first.

Leighann Lovely 10:21

Right? Right. So since you know, this season really is is a great deal on retention and training and in hiring. What are you seeing right now, in this market? You know, I historically have always asked people like, how did COVID affect the well, we've I think we've beat that one, you know, to a pulp. Right. I think the world is now understands like COVID has, speaking of COVID, but, right. Hey, I just this is my first time, okay, I've managed to make it three years, by the way, without getting COVID. And now I'm like, Oh, this is why everybody didn't want to get this. It's horrible. It's absolutely horrible.

Traci Scherck 11:08

Like I said, Leighann, have you built naptimes into your day? If not, you need to for the next three weeks, right?

Leighann Lovely 11:14

Well hey, the last three days, the entire day has been naptime. Let me tell you, I've set alarms to get up for meetings. And then I just hit the snooze button, go oh, wait, I have to let them know. I can't make it to the meeting because naptime hasn't ended yet. Okay, anyways, I diverse, or I mean, I digress. Okay, so we've been we've, you know, we've completely and totally, you know, beat what has COVID done to the world? What, what, what is the world now doing? To try to figure out how to hire, retain, train, you know, what, what is? What is this? I hate the world I hate the phrase this new world doing, but I think it's necessary now.

Traci Scherck 12:03

Absolutely. And I'm smiling at this question, because I just posted a podcast today, the day that we're recording this on, you know, what the massive layoffs the impact that the massive layoffs are having on our culture? And so that kind of leads me to answer your question and saying, What are companies doing? I think a lot of companies are really starting to double down and look at their culture, and what kind of culture are they creating? And is that culture attracting the right people? And is it retaining the right people very specifically, around? Are we creating a coaching culture, especially because we have, you know, so many of our folks working from home where we no longer can have this, I see your butt is in the seats, and I see you're working? You know, now it's really focused on managing by performance and having those performance metrics in place, which leads to leading very differently, which means that we need to lead really through, how are we coaching those individuals, when we're not seeing them on a day to day basis? How are we pulling the metrics to look at that until very specifically, look at that process. And even for the clients that we have that everyone is still in person based on the type of work that they're doing and or that culture, it is still looking at the culture. So even for organizations that are saying, hey, we want you 50% in the office, it has so much to do with the culture and the collaboration.

Leighann Lovely 13:35

Interesting. And, and I've obviously have spoken with, with numerous companies, and you know, that cultural shift is definitely I see everybody sees this happening, but it doesn't happen overnight, which means that more and more individuals are are jumping, looking for that culture. So I guess what advice do you give to each company that you work with on that immediate? That immediate, like, how do you keep these people right now?

Traci Scherck 14:09

Yeah, this is such a great question. So I met with a company two weeks ago and did and worked with them on really aligning their mission, vision and values. Yet, before we walked into that workshop, I had a conversation with every employee. So this is a smaller organization, and essentially did a state interview with every employee, right? And so what we did is we just essentially said, Hey, what do you love about this organization? What do you not so much love? Right? And this went everywhere from benefits to the of course, pay comes up, right? Of course. But and then it went into again, we looked at the four areas, right? Tell me about the role that you're in. Tell me about You know how your how your manager leads, you tell me about the team you're on, tell me about the culture, mission, vision values of the organization and how that impacts the work that you do. So we literally went through those four levers in this stay interview. And what came out of it was an incredibly beautiful conversation, and very specific alignment about where the organization felt the mission vision values were versus what the lived ones were those lived behaviors, and there was a realignment, and a reigniting of the passion and commitment to the organization, which meant engagement went up, guess what happens when engagement goes up? employees stay, and productivity goes up and profitability goes up, right. And so, you know, a conversation that I just had with the same company yesterday was one of their employees had mentioned to me, you know, some frustration with her job title based on the role that she was doing, et cetera. So I went back, and I shared that with the owner of the business. And so we she goes, well, she's my number three, I want to ensure that she stays here. You know, I don't want her to be a flight risk. I said, Well, let's do an alignment conversations. So we met for an hour, this week and had this alignment conversation, which essentially says, Hey, your job title just changed. You know, employee, can you share with us what winning looks like for you in this role? And so she went through a named what winning looks like for her. And you know, then I kind of went to the owner and her supervisor and said, so Did we miss anything? And how do we measure it? So if that's what winning looks like? How do we know when you actually had it? And what we found was, is that the goals aren't necessarily measurable. And so often, we create this vagueness and this ambiguity, that we never know if we're winning or not. And so really, when you know that that advice, back to your question is, you know, do you have alignment between what the supervisor manager feels that winning is and what the employee feels that winning is? Otherwise? If you don't, you know, the suggestion would be sit down and have the conversation about what does winning look like? And I love that question, because we all want to win. And if I say what is your job, you get? Oh, no, versus what winning looks like? Well, I'm going to hit 1000 downloads this month. Right, Lian, right? I'm going to, you know, million, three new sales accounts, I'm going to XYZ and that needs to align with what your business outcome is. And I know you just started a brand new business, which I just said, Hey, you want to land three new clients in the seals business that you have? Right?

Leighann Lovely 18:05

Right. And that's it. You would think, and I say this, lightly, I say this, you know, you would think that every organization would go, Oh, well, da, I need to make sure that my employees know that they're valued by understanding exactly how we're going to measure them how we're going to, you know, you would think that a manager would be able to go to their employee and simply have a comment, like, are you happy? Do you understand your role? Are you you know, fulfilled? Do you feel like your job title matches? You would, you would think that this is a conversation that can happen easily within an organization. However, as you are telling me this, I'm pretending that I'm the employee having this conversation and what the feeling that I'm getting is, oh, my gosh, what are they going to think of me? If I'm complaining about my job title? What are they going to think of me? If I'm, you know, are they going to be upset? Are they going to be mad? Like, this may be insignificant to them, but wildly important to me? Because I feel XYZ, right.

Traci Scherck 19:26

Yeah. And let me add some clarification. This conversation came after we changed her job title and gave her the title that she wanted.

Leighann Lovely 19:33

Right? No, and exactly but but here's the thing is that she she had to, she had to initially tell you, she had to initially feel comfortable enough to tell you that she wanted a different job title. Right. Right. And so that and that, and if you were to ask me, Leon, what do you want your job title to be? I'd be like, I don't really care. Right now. But that's because I'm, I'm at a different level. Right? If you are, I'm going to guess that this employee was probably probably closer to being a a entry or to mid level, individual or she gets paid based on her level.

Traci Scherck 20:20

Yeah, she was at a manager level. Okay. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 20:23

When you get to a certain level of you know, employment or you've been in, you've been in your job for, as long as I have 20 years, I just I stopped really caring about the title. Because, and again, some people are very wrapped up in titles. I don't care if I'm a Director of Client Services, or if you call me a salesperson, I really don't care. Either way, my job is the same. But some people it is wildly important. Because and that's the difference is that some people, it holds a huge, huge importance for them, especially depending on the role that they're doing, right? I'm in sales, sales, sales, sales, sales, does not matter what title you give me. Regardless, at the end of the day, I do the same thing. Right. Right. Right.

Traci Scherck 21:17

And I think that that's so interesting, because when we talk about, you know, that manager role or that inspire role, what we were doing in that conversation is we were inspiring her to perform, right. So we looked at not the fact that, you know, I or whoever else in the room, you know, don't care about titles, we looked at what is important to her, right? And how do we meet her where she's at where we can, and that's a really important piece is, as an organization, we cannot always meet it, nor is it equitable to meet it. Right. This was and so we did, and with that, we, you know, said, Hey, with this title change, there's also some change in responsibilities. And yes, there's a change in pay, you know, but with that, there is some change in responsibilities. You know, and one of my favorite lines that a mentor told me when I moved into my first director role was, So Tracy, you're no longer in the cheap seats, and you can't sling mud anymore, because you're the one making the decision. So what are you going to do? Right?

Leighann Lovely 22:27

Right. And, and again, that, again, that comes back to because of the type of job that you were in the title directly correlated with the with a job, right? And that's why for me, who is a serial salesperson, it doesn't matter what you call me. I, at the end of the day, do the same, you know, did the same thing. I was a business developer, I was a director of sales, I was at the end of the day, the job was exactly the same for me. So for me, title did not matter. So that was the point I was making. And that's companies have to realize that. And I was trying to come to a point. And it just wasn't Coralie, and just wasn't making sense, because maybe my brain is a little bit mushy today. I'm all good, right? But companies have to realize that, like, hiring somebody like you, you're able to get to the core of what's important to each individual. And I think that's we've gotten so far away from that, there was a time where HR, you know, we had multiple people in HR. And then now we've made every single role, or we've tried to make every single role a cookie cutter, right? Because we wanted to treat everybody exactly the same in order to mitigate liability. Trying to make sure that we cover ourselves on all angles. For years, that was the goal, write, write down everything that you do write down, this is the job now we can plug and play, this person doesn't work out, we shove another person and we teach them the role. And we move on and now we've got, you know, number 1856 employee, you know, in this role and you know, blah, blah, blah, right? Now, I'm not talking about right now I'm talking about this is the way that it started to go the world started to go. Now, all these employees are, you know, these plug and play employees that we can literally plug in, train them, they do the job, they go home, we realize as a society that we can't do that anymore, because they're not machines. These machines actually have feelings, emotions, desires, wants, all of these other things that come along with them. And now the world is shifting yet again. saying Wait, no, I'm not employee one eight. Five to seven or whatever, I'm LeighAnn lovely. And I have, you know, feelings and desires and wants and goals within this organization, if you want to keep me, then you have to actually know me and understand what those feelings desires and wants are, or I'm going to go over to XYZ company, where they actually listen to that, and try to meet those expectations. And so, so many companies were so used to the whole idea of let's just do the cookie cutter so that we mitigate all of this liability. And now they're realizing, Oh, we have to treat humans like humans. But what about everything else? Like? Is there going to be, you know, liability associated with this? Is there going to be everybody's going waiting? Or no, the liabilities and the old way that you're doing it? Because now you're actually discriminating against the fact that people are different. Right, right.

Traci Scherck 25:57

Yeah. And I think that, you know, with that specific example to it was we gave her the space to listen, and every single employee had an opportunity to share what was great and what wasn't right. And action was taken on it immediately, right? And so even for those employees that want to come and do their job, leave and never grow within the organization, guess what? That is absolutely okay. Because we still need that job to be done. And we are still listening to what they have to say, but we're not moving their cheese.

Leighann Lovely 26:34

Right? Right. And I used to be one of those people, I used to be the, you know, hey, don't move my cheese. I'm completely happy where I am. But you grow out of certain. And I think you and I talked about this, you and I did talk about this the Season of Life, seasons of life of you know, so and I'd love to dig a little bit more into that. Because I think that each one of us, you know, we have different points in our life where we're comfortable in a certain point. We may grow out of that without even realizing that we have and then we move on. And that's okay.

Traci Scherck 27:08

Yeah, for sure. And when I say seasons of life, first, I just want to pause because Leanne, I have a podcast as well. And I can always hear my listeners on my shoulder going. Move the cheese. Yes, we are both from Wisconsin. And we are both in Wisconsin and moving the cheese as a reference to changing something on someone without them knowing it. So I just don't want anyone getting lost in that.

Leighann Lovely 27:28

Well, no. And it's also a book. It's also a book. Is it a book? Yes. Who Moved My Cheese?

Traci Scherck 27:34

Oh, the mouse book for kids?

Leighann Lovely 27:36

Kids? No, no, this is this is. This is a book, the same author who wrote The Present. And it's a book about change. So you Oh, wow. So we learned something new. This is an amazing book. It's about a 45 minute read. I'm trying to think right now off the top of my head who the author is?

Traci Scherck 27:55

Well, you'll just link it in the show notes.

Leighann Lovely 27:57

Yes, I will. Absolutely. It's an amazing book. My dad gave it to me when I was. Actually I thought you were referencing that.

Traci Scherck 28:05

That's hilarious. By the way. No, I was just talking about, you know, moving somebody's cheese,

Leighann Lovely 28:11

right? No, that's an actual book. It was written by Spencer Johnson. It's a number one best selling his number one best selling selling author, and it's called Who Moved My Cheese. But it is about the concept of, of change. And there's four characters in there. And again, it's, you're able to identify on what kind of person you are based on these four different characters? Are you the kind of person who when change happens, gets up and is ready to go? Are you the kind of person who is like, Nope, I'm going to, I'm going to drag my feet. I'm not going to. I'm not gonna. I'm going to fight this all the way. And I absolutely used to be the person who used to fight it all the way, every step, every meter to the last moment. Now I'm the kind of person that if you change something on me, I'm like, Okay, I'm the first in line, Let's learn. Let's figure it out. Let's roll with this. I love it. But that's a work in progress, right? We all have to, we all have to figure out. And that's part of the whole season of life for me anyways, for a longest time, I hated the concept of change. It's also becoming a mother. Right? Nothing ever stays. Right, you know? Any, any one day for that matter? Right? So anyways, I get off a no, this

Traci Scherck 29:42

is perfect. And I loved your transition back to seasons of life because Absolutely. 100% And so when we talk about seasons of life, you know, it's looking at Where's an individual at currently, right? So you've got folks that you just talked about becoming a mom, you know, that probably shifted you into a different work role for a period of time, may or may not, but it's a season of life, right? You know, a season of life is when a parent is ill or a parent is passing and you're taking care of a parent a season of life is, you know, the honeymoon phase of a marriage a season of life is a divorce a season of life is you know, becoming empty nesters a season of life is any of those things that create a major life change for you that guess what have an impact at work as much as we try to compartmentalize things, it's all the same pot of soup. And so when we look at what those items are, as HR and as leaders, it's incredibly important to not make assumptions for someone else. Because guess what that is discrimination. And, and it can definitely be that if you say, Hey, we're not going to have Leon travel anymore, because she's pregnant. Yeah, no, not okay. But to say, hey, Leon, you know, we've got a couple options, what would you prefer, giving you the choice and knowing that you're going into a different season of life is, is looking at us as humans and saying, Hey, there's choice here. And we want you to choose that. And we also know that energy levels may not be as high today, as you have COVID. Nothing I call COVID a season of life. It's ugly, however, you know, it kind

Leighann Lovely 31:34

of is right now for me, and somebody's gonna have to wheel me back to the couch after this conversation. So love it. But yes, I mean, it. You're right. I mean, different points, different seasons of life definitely. Have drivers for, for all of us. Right.

Traci Scherck 31:58

Right. And another one I didn't mention, like, I remember when I, you know, started to get really bored in my job. So I went back and I got a master's degree, right. Like, that was a season, you know, I went and I got a coaching certification. Because, you know, guess what, there's a season that led you to go do those things. And so a lot of times, you can look at seasons and say, how is that season going to impact the career changes going forward. And as HR, we don't typically know what's happening with staff, and sometimes we do. But with that, it's just something to be cognizant of is that there are seasons that every single one of us is going through. And so if you see somebody at peak performance, and you know, six months later, you're like, okay, they're, they're still getting everything done, but like, they were hitting it out of the park, for a solid year and a half. Now, they're now you know, we're, we're doing bass hits every day, which is fine. Guess what, we can't always be on peak performance. And that's not you know, that's the machine versus saying, there's ups and downs to this. And when we can have empathy and compassion, and you know, kind of create those goals, share those goals, cheer that on, we're going to be with that individual throughout the ups and downs of those seasons.

Leighann Lovely 33:22

And I something that you said, you know, as HR, we can't always know what's going on with our employees. And I wish that and again, I don't I, before I say this, I want to make sure that everybody understands I'm not saying that, that we should be allowed to know, or that we should cry, or that, that this is something that I'm just I'll just say it and then I'll we can talk about it. I wish that we that we did that we that that employees had enough confidence in HR, again, to be able to approach them and say, Hey, I've got something going on at home. You know, this may, you know, XYZ is going on, I'm really struggling with this. I really want to do a great job here. I just want to give you a heads up, you know, and then for for HR to be able to say, here are some resources available to you if you need help. But we've gotten to a point where employees are so guarded by HR that they're afraid they're going to get fired that it's a hush hush, like don't let anybody at the company find out or I'm gonna get fired. I mean, that's it's the fear mentality that drives the secrecy. Completely. I mean, right. Here's an example I called my husband and I said, I just tested positive for COVID. On my end, I said you should probably inform your employer that you know, we're we have to look for different childcare because obviously, I can't wait You know, I can't have the nanny coming over to the house, we need to contain this blah, blah, blah, will test our daughter will test you, you know, providing that you guys don't have symptoms, you know, all that kind of stuff, I'll remain in the lower level and my husband goes, I'm not telling my employer and I'm like, why? Well, what if they make me not come to work for seven days? And then we, you know, blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, Well, okay, I get that. And he's like, I'm just, I'm going to test I'll do the responsible thing. I'll stay home tomorrow, but I'm not going to inform them of what's going on in my personal life. And I'm like, Okay, you're right, you have the right to do that. As long as you're doing the responsibility, things didn't, you know, testing and all that other stuff. But it's like, why is that so fearful? Why are we so afraid to give information?

Traci Scherck 35:47

Right, right. And I think because there's been so many situations where there's been a negative response to it. Right, right. And, you know, let me just give one and for our HR professionals out there, you may kind of give me the side eye on this, and that's okay. But, but you know, somebody's coming to you with something and just saying, hey, go see EAP, what you did is you just put them into another system without having empathy around what they just shared with you. And I think one of those key things is, you know, when we do have that sharing, happening, and before, after, during all the things is, how are we creating space and holding space for those individuals in our office, and really just listening in and providing that sounding board to them not taking their stuff on? That's not what I'm saying. But really providing that space, having empathy for what's going on with them, and then shifting the conversation into, let's start to brainstorm some solutions to move you forward. And what are those key goals? And there's the coach coming out, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 36:54

Right? You're right, and not every HR professional is a coach and in, you know, prepared for what happens if an employee walks in their office and says, you know, I realized, I'm an alcoholic, and I'm gonna go for treatment. You know, a lot of HR professionals, especially younger ones, or ones that haven't been around the block are like, Okay. Well, what do I do? How do I handle this? And unfortunately, over the years, we have gotten a bad rap. I mean, I've had multiple friends call me and go, What do I do? So and so just got fired? Aren't they? You know, do we have a lawsuit? And I'm like, well, first of all, probably shouldn't jump to the lawsuit. You know, let's not, let's think this through first, you know, but you know, HR, people forget that the first thing that HR has to do is protect the interests of the company. But that doesn't mean that there's not a human beings sitting in that chair too.

Traci Scherck 38:10

Right? There's an an both with how do I show empathy? And how do I create the protection and you can do an an both, right? Because it's in the way of your being, and in your doing, it's an and both to, to the person and the organization to how you are showing up and what you are doing in those actions.

Leighann Lovely 38:36

Right. But, and like I said, HR has gotten, and I trust me, I was in corporate HR. And there were times where people would see me coming, and they'd be like, okay, they I would see like, multiple people just like leaving, and I'm like, okay, nobody wants to be around the corporate HR lady. They, you know, everybody, nobody wants to, like, Hey, I'm a cool gal. Like, I swear, I, I swear I say bad words. I drink I know, I mean, maybe but this was this was like 15 years ago, that made me cool at that time. Okay, maybe not, I don't know. But I love it. Nobody wanted to be anywhere, you know, they everybody would scatter. And it was like, okay, you know, that's fine. But it's the same thing of, you know, a cop walks into a party. Everybody's like, Should we all stop drinking? Should we should we go home? Should we, you know, it's the same thing like it's the same concept, I guess. And I want to see that shift again. And I think we are starting to see that where companies are focusing a little bit more on that but for I don't know, it's time will only tell right? Well we are coming to time I just realized how late it was. So the question of the season what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role if you could?

Traci Scherck 40:14

So what would I change about my job so as the owner of a company I would not do anything with it or systems and it would all just be done for me it worked perfectly.

Leighann Lovely 40:27

Okay I second that I absolutely second IT systems or you know what I'm gonna even say the marketing piece. I a sales person through and through, but when it comes to marketing and creativity, I black. Okay,

Traci Scherck 40:46

I just wrote an email about Smurfs. Because yes, so much like the little blue men Smurfs. Yes about Smurfs The little. Okay. Now I have to tell you the story about Smurfs donor. Yes. All right. So I go into TJ Maxx, and I'm out a conditioner and I don't want to go by the Aveda conditioner. So I go on to TJ Maxx and I find this bottle wrecking conditioner. I'm like, great. smelled it? It smelled good. Fantastic, right? Like the things that we think are important is how does it smell? So I get home and you know, like I'm taking my shower, and I'm washing my hair and doing all the thing I looked down and I'm blue, this conditioner. And of course I look at the bottle now and the bottle says blue pigment in the bottle is blue. But I didn't pay attention when I bought the conditioner that the bottle was blue. How often do we do that in our HR policies and with things that we think that we know like what our handbook says, then we actually go look at it. And we're like, oh my goodness. So I buy the red conditioner. I put it in my hair. And then I'm blue. And I just keep like, you know, rinsing my hair with this redkin conditioner, and the blue goes away. But the beautiful part Hold on. I see you're like why is the conditioner blue? It's blue so that it starts to hide the gray. However, I didn't realize that I was turning blue that day.

Leighann Lovely 42:11

So wait a second, it actually died your skin?

Traci Scherck 42:15

Blue? Well, no, but just like it didn't die it but like I'm like, I'm like you look down and you know, it's like when it takes a bit to like

Leighann Lovely 42:23

write it. Right? Oh my god, blues.

Traci Scherck 42:29

But how often do so I'm going to do a marketing piece for you. Right? How often do we think we know something and tell it shows up in our face? And we're like, oh my gosh, that's not at all what I thought it was. And in HR, we see that in our policies. Right? Yeah. It's like, what are the unintended consequences of the wording of this in this way or of having the conversation in that way? So my rule here is pay attention so you don't become a smurf. That's really good marketing lesson for the day. I don't Okay.

Leighann Lovely 43:00

That's actually pretty good. That's pretty good. Hey, I temporarily dyed my hair purple, which stayed purple for about three washes and then turn pink. Because my hair does not and what did stay bright purple was my scalp. Which it was yes, it was a nightmare. I will never dye my hair again. I will not give the brands because they do not want to, you know, bash any brands or anything. But by the way

Traci Scherck 43:33

That was not bashing redkin it was just like, this is a no brand. I know I sprained my trust it. I don't have to look at it.

Leighann Lovely 43:40

Right, right. No, no, I'm right. But this with my hair. Um, I temporarily dyed my scalp. Bright, bright purple because I didn't read the directions clear enough saying make sure to keep it off your scalp and use a lubricant around the rest of your skin to keep it off of your skin or it will dye your skin. So the next day I went to a networking meeting with still purple dots all over the back of my ears, the back of my neck. Oh, yes, it was it was a blast. Fantastic. This is yet again. Because as an HR professional, I still didn't read the entire directions basically stating, do not get this on your skin. Oh, I also had purple thumbs. It was yes, it was just a blast. Never again. Well, it's fun.

Traci Scherck 44:36

I hope you now have your marketing inspiration.

Leighann Lovely 44:39

Yeah, yes. I'm not even going to Okay. If somebody wanted to reach out to you. How would they go about contacting you and where can they find your podcast?

Traci Scherck 44:50

Absolutely. So you can find me on LinkedIn. It's Tracy sharp. You can find me on our website which is elevated talent comm salting and our podcast is talent optimization with Tracy shirk.

Leighann Lovely 45:05

Excellent. Thank you so much again, Tracy for this awesome conversation. I really appreciate your time today.

Traci Scherck 45:11

And I appreciate you and all of your COVID conversation that we just had.

Leighann Lovely 45:19

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

employee, traci, conversation, organization, hr, role, season, absolutely, hr professionals, conditioner, life, companies, job, hiring, people, important, culture, individuals, meeting, create

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With 20 years in HR in a number of areas Jennifer Kramer is a true HR generalist, She is now the Executive Vice President for Benefits at Presidio. She and I had a great conversation about hiring, retention, and culture shifts. Not only does Jennifer offer a wealth of knowledge, but she also is highly intelligent and I truly enjoyed an amazing conversation with her.

Contact Jennifer

E-mail - HR@Presidiogrp.com

Phone number - 630-524-6153

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Jennifer Kramer is the Executive Vice President of employee benefits in Presidio HR. She has over 20 years of experience in operations supporting multi state for profit and nonprofit organizations. She has expertise in project management, training and development, performance management, employee and client relations, policy and procedures and conflict resolutions. consistently recognized as an innovative, results orientated and effective leader, Jennifer builds team's support by encouraging others to perform and achieve strategic business goals. Jen is no stranger to setting goals and performing her best with three marathons and 13, half marathons, finisher medals hanging around her neck. She's living her dream one mile at a time.

Jennifer, thank you so much for joining me today.

Jennifer Kramer 02:09

Well, thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to be invited onto your show.

Leighann Lovely 02:14

Why don't you start off by telling telling us a little bit about yourself?

Jennifer Kramer 02:19

Sure, um, well, I've been in human resources. Progressive through my career for about 20 years first, as an internal, each our professional and then as I term it, an external HR professional, meaning that I provide HR services to my clients rather than one particular organization. So as an HR consultant, in a number of different areas, the full breadth of an employee lifecycle, if you want to think of it in that respect. So I would call myself a true HR generalist. So not necessarily specializing in one area or another.

Leighann Lovely 03:07

Okay, awesome. So, like we kind of mentioned in your bio, you just mentioned, you've been in the industry one way or another for over 20 years. And I'm assuming that in that, just like me, you've probably seen anything and everything that that goes on out there. Yes, yes. Fun times. Right.

Jennifer Kramer 03:30

The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the funny.

Leighann Lovely 03:33

Yes, yes. What, as you say, funny. I believe I interviewed somebody once over the phone. Who was in the bathtub once that was one of them. Ones? Yes. Think when? Oh, yeah. Somebody actually peed while we were on the doing an interview.

Jennifer Kramer 03:51

Oh just this past week. I had someone answered the phone. They were in the shower. And it was on the phone. It was not a video call. Let me be clear there especially in today's age, right, but, but nonetheless, they felt the need to answer our scheduled phone interview while they were in the shower, and then proceeded to continue on that call, even though I suggested maybe we reschedule. So yeah, it's amazing what people do.

Leighann Lovely 04:23

Right. I didn't want to miss the call. Let's just Yes, but I needed to still shower. Right. I know. I know. We professionals. We get the brunt of the crazies out there, don't we? Or I shouldn't. I shouldn't No, no, no, I know. Okay, well anyways. So, you and I have obviously spoke prior to this and, you know, this being about employee retention about hiring. Let's talk a little bit about some of the things that you or do to help your, you know, clients? With those types of things? How do you? How do you start working with your clients? To assist with those types of things?

Jennifer Kramer 05:14

In terms of hiring and retention? Yeah. Really, we take it right back to the very beginning and understanding, you know, what are what's your culture? Right? What are your? What are your needs in this position? We don't want to, we don't want to necessarily rinse and repeat in saying that, you know, you, for example, maybe someone resigned, and you're looking to replace that position? Do you? Do we need to find this exact replacement? Or have things changed over time? So let's look at, you know, what are your needs today versus where they were perhaps three years ago or five years ago when you initially hired for that role? And where are you looking to go in the future so that we're not just solving for today, but we're solving for tomorrow as well as best as we can, we don't have that crystal ball. And then when we are looking to bring somebody on what's going to be attractive to them. So we look at the whole picture, and everyone focuses in on compensation. Well, we certainly want to be competitive in the marketplace. So we talked about, you know, where the compensation philosophy, where do you want to be? Do you want to be Mitt like right in the middle in terms of your competition? Do you want to lead the market, like the market? The compensation is just one piece of it. There's, there's the full package when we talk about benefits. There's the employee benefit package in terms of medical, dental vision. But then also, what are you providing in terms of time off? Paid Time Off? Sick leave? Holidays? That's a key component these days? Do you have a flexible work environment? What's your true what are you portraying as a community as a culture? Because that's key to employees? Are you 100%? Remote? Do you offer a hybrid work environment? These are things that people are looking for. In when I talk about culture, oftentimes it's very subjective, right? We can't, we can't say, Okay, your medical plan is this and this, you have so many days of PTO, right. But culture, culture is hard to pinpoint. But it's, in my mind, it's about listening to your employees, empowering your employees. Talking to them understanding where they want to go with their careers, giving them the tools to get there, giving them maybe an assignment or a project or whatever it is, that pertains to their work, that will stretch their minds, give them those opportunities for growth, those learning opportunities, right? Being present with them, to guide them and support them, but not necessarily doing the job for them. So all of that plays into to culture. And if you can do that, in addition to the compensation, the PTO, the holidays, the work, location, and everything else that they're looking for. Then in my mind, that's what makes everything kind of stick. That's the stickiness factor at the retention in that employee.

Leighann Lovely 09:28

And I love that, you know, when we when we first spoke, you use that term, you have to make actuations, you know, sticky. And so that leads me into, you know, a great next question. Do you think that employees are truly leaving positions for more money these days?

Jennifer Kramer 09:53

Yes and no. For some people, money is very important to them, but ultimately the majority If people are not leaving for money, it all has to do with overall culture and feeling valued in that rule. So if you can convey to your employees in whatever manner makes no sense in, in your company in your industry in that role, that they're valued, that they're listened to that what they have to say, in the work that they produce, whether it's making widgets, or, you know, performing that, you know, intensive, you know, surgery, or, you know, what, whatever spectrum that's on, that the work that they're producing is valuable to you, their manager, the broader organization, and to, you know, they're bringing value and they're, they're intrinsically receiving that, overall, that's what's gonna lead them to stay with you. 25 cents down the road is not going to make or break it, they may go initially, but they're gonna if they don't feel valued for 25 cents more down the road, they're gonna come back to you. And we do see that boomerang.

Leighann Lovely 11:21

Right. So how do we I mean, other than, obviously, the obvious answer, fix your culture, which is I know, not an obvious

Jennifer Kramer 11:30

I wish I had that Pixy dust, right,

Leighann Lovely 11:32

Right. You know, sprinkle it over this company, sprinkle it over that company, and all of a sudden, it's magically fixed. But we all know that it's taken years years for culture to plummet. Because, right, I've got to assume that at one time, all of these businesses that and don't get me wrong, I am sure that every business that started at one time had the greatest intent of having this glorious place that people wanted to come and work out. Somewhere along the line. culture became its own animal, because with lack of direction, and Trish intention, and you have to have somebody who's actually intentionally creating culture in order to maintain that, right. So at one point, somebody who was creating and cultivating and continuing to manage that exited that company. And nobody stepped in and said, Okay, this is my intention, I'm going to continue to cultivate this ever really stepped back in and continue to cultivate that and make it beautiful. And so culture, ultimately, you know, the lack of creating and cultivating that doesn't mean that another culture doesn't take over. Correct, it becomes its own animal. Yeah. So now we have businesses, we have companies that whether it's flying under the radar, and nobody's ever said, Oh, it's a horrible place to work. Or it's very blatant, and you see these horrible reviews and nobody's gonna care. A culture exists.

Jennifer Kramer 13:24

I mean, cultures exist, subcultures exist,

Leighann Lovely 13:28

right. So now, we're in a, in a state of, how do we unravel the negativity? And then start to rebuild positivity in these in these places, you know, and when it's, you know, if it's if it's culture of 15, it may be a little bit easier, but when, you know, 150. That's going to take time. Now, if we're talking about 3000. Right. And for those of you who, you know, obviously can't see us, Jennifer right now is making a face of, yeah, that's that's going to be extremely difficult. So, we're, we're not impossible, right? Nothing is impossible. But where do we even begin? Because, right, I mean, the first thing I do or have done when I was looking for a job was what is the culture of this company? Are they a great company to work for? Or are they a horrible company to work for? And I, let me tell you, that's going to play a huge role on whether or not I want to go work for them. Even if they're willing to pay me top dollar. Am I going to be miserable every time I come home? And is that dollar worth it? Probably not.

Jennifer Kramer 15:05

And what's important to you may not be important to the next person. So what you value is different from what someone else values. But yes, where do you start? Well, number one is being aware and wanting to, to make a change. And that change always starts from the top. So someone in that top or top levels of the company needs to initiate that change, and you need to be open to it. And change is never easy. And to your point, you know, change within a 15 person, company Versa, 3000 or more, right, is going to take much longer. But regardless, right, you have to have the buy in, and you're never going to have 100% buy in, ever. But starting at the top understanding, you know, what is your mission? What is your vision? What are your values? And how do you organization, right, want to manifest those values going forward? What does that look like to you in your day to day work, right, and then determine who's in this with you, and who's going to choose not to stay on this route, right. And they may initially say, I'm in this, right I, I see your vision, I see your mission. I understand the values, and I'm on this route. And as you start to move that ships lowly and it becomes more and more uncomfortable. You may see those employees opt out. And that's O, K. Because although that may be a star player for you, and it may hurt to have that employee, leave your team. And it may leave a huge void. Everyone is replaceable. And this is your company, your vision, your mission, your values, and everyone needs to be moving in the same line. Right? If this is truly what you as leaders believe in in terms of where you want your culture to be, then some hard decisions are going to be need to be made along the way. And certainly not overnight. So again, if I could go back to having that magic wand of pixie dust, I would love to do this for some of the companies that I helped to support. But it is a journey, and you need to be going into that eyes wide open.

Leighann Lovely 18:00

Interesting. So we need buy in obviously from the top up. And so do you consult with them on? Where to start?

Jennifer Kramer 18:12

We do. Yeah. So certainly where to start, what the process may look like. And then we walk alongside all through that process. So every company, it's going to look different in terms of you know, Where where are they today? And where do they want to go? And what does that look like? So?

Leighann Lovely 18:35

So let's say it's a 50 person company. Okay. What do you typically tell them? That timeframe is going to look like?

Jennifer Kramer 18:48

Well, again, it depends on where they are today, right? But minimum, minimum a year, if not longer, right? Again, it doesn't happen overnight. We may make some changes, we may make some significant impact over a year. But the bottom line is it never stops. We don't hit a goal line and say we've achieved this, it is continuous improvement. And how do you leave your you can't take your eye off the ball. So you also made a point earlier about you know, someone who had their their eye on that, that culture, right, they may have left the organization. And that's where things started to unravel. Maybe they did leave the organization or maybe they just became so hauled in a different direction that they asked where they took their eye off of things. You need to have someone or some people continuously keeping their eye on this, the vision, the mission, the culture and making sure it's going in the direction, it can evolve, right? But it needs to continue to go in the direction you would like it to.

Leighann Lovely 20:05

And how do you track this? You know, I have all these ideas like, oh, this constant employee surveys, do we do concepts? I mean, what are we what? What are the matrix on this? Because now we're talking, you know, and when I hear culture, I think it's like, it's not a tangible thing. It's not something held on your hands. So it's like, how do I track this? Especially when you're speaking to some people who? And I say this? Let me as sometimes I was pausing and go, I don't know, am I gonna say this? Right? Some people out there don't mind walking into a volatile environment and working in that. And not necessarily because there's the one who's who creates it. But don't get me wrong. There are some people who thrive on watching others gossip and be absolutely. So if you're coming into a culture that is already completely, possibly up in arms and isn't nice, toxic, toxic, you, you now are asking these employees whom you are trying to create a positive culture, you are not going to be asking them, how do you feel the culture has gotten? And they those employees may think that while it's gotten really horrible hear, because now you're turning what they think is their haven of gossip and disarray into positivity and sunshine and rainbows. So how do we truly track this?

Jennifer Kramer 21:49

Well, first, let's just set the expectation that nowhere sunshine and rainbows, right?

Leighann Lovely 21:57

Sorry, yes, you're right. But

Jennifer Kramer 21:58

Yes, but we can have, we can have a good environment where you feel you feel good about, you know, working in that that environment, I don't want to say like walking into right, because we don't all walk into a brick and mortar but you you feel comfortable walking into that environment. You feel good about the work you're producing and what have you, but But to your point, how do we measure this? Right? Yes, there are several tools, certainly employee surveys, focus groups, right? Walking around. Again, I'm picturing everyone in brick and mortar, but truly just having those conversations with your team. Whether the ads, regular touch base meetings, 15 minutes, 30 minutes, you know, random conversations, you can learn a lot by just having a regular basic conversation with your team, either one to one in a team format, at the watercooler whatever that looks like, it's amazing what people will share with you. But you have to be present

Leighann Lovely 23:14

Right now and sit and I understand when you say it's amazing what people will share with you because for some reason, over the years, as I have no longer been in corporate HR, I have been on the sales side the business development side in a in a at a staffing at very staffing companies over the last years. It is amazing. What when when employees don't look at you as the authority, correct, what they will divulge to you. And when they don't look at you as being anybody who, when they don't look at you as a threat of this person can't harm me, this person can't fire me this person can't. Yet they also look at you as a superior as somebody who they can possibly could potentially help me. It is absolutely amazing what somebody will come in and confide in you in sometimes looking for just a confidant and sometimes looking for an underlying cry for help of something's not right here. And I have been in that position a couple of times throughout my career of employees coming in, sitting down in my office and I'm like, what, what, what can I do for you and then all of a sudden they burst out in tears and I'm going whoa, what's happening here? And, and that sometimes it was because I was the only other female in the office that Oh, isn't that true? Mm hmm. And it was like, Oh, okay. Okay. All right. And then it was do you? Are you just venting? Or do you want me to take action? Excellent question. Yes. And quite often it was. I just wanted to vent. Yeah. Which eventually came into. Okay, if you continue to come into my office, I cannot stay silent on this. Very good. Yes. Yeah. Like, I mean, this has gotten to a point of you are clearly very dissatisfied. You are clearly. I mean, you're either going to quit, or you're going to get fired. Because now. And when people don't look at you as a threat of like, your HR, your or it is amazing that they're more apt to tell you when I'm confused by is why? Why have we created such? And I know the answer to it, it's a rhetorical question. But why have we created why have we stopped employees? Even know, we tell them until we're blue in the face, this is a safe place, there will be no retribution for you. You know, coming forward, there will be why time and time again, will employees not come forward and say, Hey, this is, you know, my manager is yelling at me, despite the fact that I'm doing a good job or this is happening or whatever it might be, is transpiring.

Jennifer Kramer 26:55

So, although we say it, right, oftentimes, the trust isn't there. So somewhere along the way, that trust has been broken. At some, it may not have been between that particular manager and that employee. But somewhere, they have seen that, that trust between an employee and manager broken. And so they can't trust in the fact that what is been stated in that handbook stated in that policy verbally explained to them over and over. And regardless of what the law says, They don't trust in that, and they feel that it's going to come back to them in some negative aspect. And it's just better not to say anything at all. Some also feel that it's not worth their time and energy, because it's not going to go anywhere. That perhaps, you know, this person might be this person who might be bullying them or harassing them, or whatever the situation is, that they are seen as a favorite, or a protected person within the organization, and we're garlis of what happens, they're not going to get in trouble, and no action is going to be taken. So why is it that me employee who feels attacked? Why should I put myself out there, when nothing is going to happen? So that's oftentimes the mentality, especially if this person, this employee may have a disciplinary record, right? And who's going to believe them? Their mentality is who's going to believe me? If I've been written up in the past, right, against this person who has a stellar record, even though what they're doing is wrong. So you have to put yourselves in their shoes and understand, you know, where they may be coming from. Sometimes, too, it's very cultural, you know, between, you know, how they've, how they've grown up in their, their, their culture, their race, their ethnicity. Yeah, in terms of that type of culture versus culture we were just speaking of, and it's just not how they were. What they do in their culture, and so they are not comfortable in in coming forward in that respect.

Leighann Lovely 29:59

That's Yeah. And that's so unfortunate. And do you deal in it? Do you deal with situations like that? Or are you more on the other? I'm all the time. Oh,

Jennifer Kramer 30:11

we yeah, we work on? Yeah. So we'll work alongside both them, you know, managers, supervisors, owners, as, as well as employees, line employees and at all levels of the organization,

Leighann Lovely 30:25

right. And then it's so unfortunate that this, in today's society, you would think that we had gotten, we've gotten to a point where people, you know, through the, the me to era through all of this through that if somebody is being bullied or somebody is being an any number of things, right, that you would think people would feel comfortable to, and if not their own manager, if not, right, you know, and again, I guess I suppose this is why I have been in situations. And again, don't get me wrong. I haven't been in situations where it was, you know, imminent, imminent, where I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to, but it, it is, it's amazing that in today's society, we are still experiencing until missions like this. Yeah. Right. So I kind of got off on a tangent here as we left, okay, because we, it just you triggered something in my brain. So getting back to the employee, you know, employee retention and training. And do you work with companies on creating training plans on how to onboard new employees?

Jennifer Kramer 31:40

Yes, on a regular basis? We certainly do so. So training plans, yes. And that can look very different, again, for the organization. So, you know, are we training managers? Are we training on compliance? Sexual harassment prevention? The are we training on, you know, a handbook, right? Are we training on, you know, whatever. So family medical leave, I'm just trying to come up with a number of different trainings that we've done, we will also train like newer human resource professionals in their roles. In terms of onboarding, yes, we will create new hire, onboarding, trainings, to effectively bring in a new employee in terms of not only the regular compliance New Hire paperwork package, but also what trainings do they need to be effective in their roles? Now, of course, if it's company specific rule specific, what have you, we're going to work alongside of that client, manager supervisor who has the knowledge in those specifics to develop that program, but we will work with them to do that.

Leighann Lovely 33:10

Interesting. Do you find a lot of companies are lacking in the onboarding process.

Jennifer Kramer 33:20

More and more are moving towards more of an electronic onboarding process and with these tools in terms of, you know, adding that into their HR is system whether that be ADP, paycor, Paylocity, pay com, fill in the blank, right? So that has helped tremendously. But there are still quite a few organizations in which we help support that are more on a paper based onboarding. And that may be because of the nature of the workforce that they have are just because they haven't invested in that onboarding program. But the when I talk about that, that really has to do more with the, you know, do you have, you know, an application? Do you have your, your tax forms? Do you have your I nine. In those type of documents, it does not necessarily then expand into, you know, what does that first week look like for that employee? What does it look like beyond that first week, because having a very solid onboarding, the at all, as I say, goes into that stickiness factor. If that employee doesn't have a nice warm welcome, onboarding, they're going to continue to look for the next opportunity. They're not going to feel like they're valued that they belong there, that they're needed, right?

Leighann Lovely 34:55

So you just hit a like, button here for me. So forgive me while I interrupt you for a sec, please. I had a company once say to me, we don't. After they go through the initial paperwork, we don't circle back to them until they've made it their first week. And I say to him, Well, why? Because we want to make sure that they're going to make it their first week until we invest any more time in them. And I went,

Jennifer Kramer 35:22

wait, what? Oh, that's too late. I,

Leighann Lovely 35:27

why would you expect them to stay that first week if you're not investing any time in them? And their response was, we didn't, we haven't noticed that it has helped any better because we're just we have people coming and going so quickly. What is your philosophy on that?

Jennifer Kramer 35:49

If you don't invest in them from eighth, forget the first. So enter first week even, it has to start before their first day, it has to start from the the initial reach out to them from every touch point along the way. So if you reach out to that candidate, for example, to say, you know, for a phone interview, from that phone interview, to, in person interview, to extending that job offer that time period between that job offer, like let's just say for example, it's two weeks standard two weeks, you better be touching base with that person, whether it's an email of phone, call a text, what have you, throughout those two weeks, to make sure that they know that you haven't forgotten about them in those two weeks. Just a quick little note, hope your day is going well. We can't wait for you to start we're preparing your orientation. Just want to make sure you know, you have everything you need for day one quick little touch bases. You're going to lose them before they even come in that door.

Leighann Lovely 37:12

Very interesting. Yeah. And and I agree, I absolutely agree. But like you mentioned, even some employees who come in that door. Continue to look around, perhaps Absolutely. So in today's society, in today's world with more jobs than people. And this isn't stopping, by the way, because we have more jobs than people available to work and and that's that's just that's, that is the way it is now it is. There's just no more people. How do we combat that? I can I don't, I don't expect you to often answer if you had an answer to that you'd be a millionaire.

Jennifer Kramer 38:12

Right? Let me grab my my crystal ball and my pixie dust and we'll just resolve this right now. But but it is it is being diligent about you know, finding that talent, making them feel valued and and then having a good environment while you have that employee. Now, on the flip side, just because you have a warm body in that spot does not make that person valuable to you. So think about if you have a person working for you, and they're just underperforming not performing, if they're toxic, if they're are contributing to a poor environment, if they're bringing down your culture and not living up to the culture you want. Is it better to let that person go and have a vacancy or to continue to have that person in that role and spread that you know, toxic environment and you as the manager owner when you know decision maker you need to decide what's better. And knowing that there may not be an easy backfill for that person, you might be without someone for a while.

Leighann Lovely 39:40

Right. And I think that is why so many companies have ended up where they are. Right because and unfortunately it is the small to midsize company it is who can't pay the top dollar like the monster companies out there. They're the ones We're struggling to get individuals who are willing to take the lower paying position. And right now you know, I have obviously coming from the staffing industry coming from an industry where you talk to all of these individuals who are, who will tell you upfront, it's, it's not about the money, it's I want to find a better environment. But then when it comes to negotiation, it comes down to well, this other company is offering me $5,000 more a year. You know, I think I might take that and you look at him, and you go, Well, wait a second. But you know, that company, you know, has a really bad reputation for their culture. Yeah. But okay, wait, let's go back to what you originally told me in the initial conversation we ever had. Because when it comes down to the core Money talks, and that person will end up taking that job. And the last their six months, and then they call you back and they say, back on the market, why are you back in the market? Oh, that was a horrible company to work for. And then when you ask them, Well, what would you like, what is the minimum that you need to make, they'll say, the dollar amount that they were making at that other company, and then you go, Wait a second. Just because you made $5,000, more a year for six months, does not mean that that is what you were valued at, in this market. They paid a premium for you to steal you away from another offer. And then that person doesn't understand why they can't get a job. And then they get disgruntled and they get upset with you. And then they don't want to work with you because you're a horrible recruiter who How dare you you try to lowball them. And then your hand I again, I'm I'm now getting into this, you know, cycle of where we are in this world. But out of nowhere, some company will go, Yep, no knob, I'll pay that for them. And yet, it's another company that has a horrible culture. That's willing to snap them up. And then they go, and they work there for six months. And eventually, when they do come back to you, and you find them a really awesome company that really wants to interview them, the company will come back and go, Why is this person a job jumper? Oh, I hear the story. regularly, and you go. What I want to say is because they didn't take my advice, when they had a really awesome job offer a year and a half ago. And so they've been going through the cycle of chasing the money. And now they finally gotten smart about it. And realized, Oh, I could have had a very sweet job at a very well paying job at a really good company. But they'll never admit that. And then who gets the bad rap? The recruiter,

Jennifer Kramer 43:14

The recruiter. Yes, you're not doing your job.

Leighann Lovely 43:20

You're not doing your job. You're not finding me producing you're not you're not finding me a company. That's a good company. All these companies right, you know are horrible. And Bob. Sorry, I digress. I digress. Can you tell that I'm little COVID brain today? Okay, anyways, getting back at it. Sure. We are starting to we're coming to time. So I want to I want to ask you the question of the season. Okay. You have been in your industry working in HR for nearly 20 years. So if you could change a practice about your job or something about your job or the practice that people do in your role? What would you change?

Jennifer Kramer 44:07

I like the question of the season. Oftentimes in human resources, right, we need to we absolutely not oftentimes we do need to abide by compliance. There are many HR professionals who look at the practice in terms of black and white, right? Well, we deal with people if people are not black and white. We are individuals with very unique needs and unique situations. So I feel we need to be somewhat flexible within the guardrails of the laws and compliance it's given to us. So sometimes we need to play in that gray area, given the situation that we're handed, and treat it with some compassion, we're not dealing with robots, we're dealing with people. And sometimes you just need to step into their shoes for a moment. Now, I see that, but I also am very, very much aware that with compliance, we need to apply things. equitably, uniformly. But these are individuals with unique beads. So take that into consideration. It's not black and white.

Leighann Lovely 45:42

I love that. I love it. And I agree with it. And you know, and I go back to, you know, the days of creating jobs that were cookie cutter, and everybody has to do the same and the plug and play the idea that we could just take somebody with this skill set and plug them in this job, and they were gonna be able to do it. Those days are gone. They are Yeah. And we just we need to get on on. We need to get on board with that and realize that we have to hire people with common sense.

Jennifer Kramer 46:21

Very hard to teach common sense, right.

Leighann Lovely 46:25

And unfortunately, colleges are not, are not allowing people to raise up with common sense. They're saying, hey, oh, study this, come back, not study, go memorize this, come back and pass this test. That needs to change. We need to allow people to, you know, to troubleshoot on their own sometimes even flounder.

Jennifer Kramer 46:53

Yes, it's okay to fail as long as you learn from it. Yes.

Leighann Lovely 46:58

And that's and that's what we need to to start teaching our children again. Stop allowing them to win the board game every time. They will cry about it. They will throw fits, because I have a five year old who cries about it and throws fits. But she's old enough to understand that she can't win every time. Plain and simple. I stopped rigging the game for her to win every time because she's never going to learn anything if she wins the game. Every now I will tell you that every time we play Crazy Eights for some reason she wins every frickin time. It's her skill. I know it's mad skill. But we've we don't you never learn anything. Anything I think you know all of those shows. Although those cop shows whenever it's the whenever it's the dad, the rich dad bailing out the rich kid every single time. They're spoiled brats, right? Well, I'm gonna get out of this because Daddy's gonna come to my rescue until one day Daddy can't come to the rescue, or mommy, or stepdad or your stepdad or grandpa, whatever. Right? Right. We have to stop bailing our kids out so that our kids can grow up with brains that are actually functioning fully and troubleshooting issues and problems. That's what's going to create a strong word. I'm sorry, I digress again.

Jennifer Kramer 48:25

That's okay.

Leighann Lovely 48:27

See, I mean, and that's that that is what creates a strong human beings the ability to fail and still succeed through failure.

Jennifer Kramer 48:41

Yeah, absolutely. Again, learning, learning and growing from those mistakes. If you don't fail, you can't learn,

Leighann Lovely 48:47

right? I have fallen more and more times than I possibly that I will ever admit. How about that?

Jennifer Kramer 48:55

I tell my daughter, I make mistakes every day. Every single day. Some of them are small, some of them are big.

Leighann Lovely 49:03

Just don't gotta keep going. Just don't make mistakes on your taxes. Okay. Um, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Jennifer Kramer 49:13

Sure. Um, a couple of different ways. One, you can reach me at H R @ Presidio group. That's g rp.com. You can also call me but I'm on the phone all day. So that one is a little bit more challenging, but certainly feel free to call me at 630-524-6153.

Leighann Lovely 49:48

Excellent. That'll be in the show notes. Jennifer, I really appreciate you coming on today and talking with me. It's been a great conversation.

Jennifer Kramer 49:55

Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Leighann Lovely 49:56

You have an awesome day.

Jennifer Kramer 49:58

Thanks, you too.

Leighann Lovely 49:59

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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employees, culture, work, company, people, person, valued, terms, creating, compliance, job, training, organization, years, hr, day, continue, week, manager, presidio

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I have always thought that non-profits and for-profits are so vastly different. In talking with this amazing guest not only did I learn that I was wrong, I learned that there is not much difference when it comes to hiring with a couple of key exceptions. Nancy Major an expert in all things non-profit brings so much valuable insight to this great episode about hiring and understanding non-profit organizations, with 30 years in the non-profit sector and experience managing teams up to 200 at times she is a wealth of knowledge. Nancy is an Author, a Speaker, Certified Coach and so much more, this is a conversation you will want to tune into!

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Nancy Major 01:44

Hey, Leighann, it is so great to be on your show. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. So glad that we could finally make it happen.

Leighann Lovely 01:51

Yeah. So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself, and you know what's going on?

Nancy Major 01:58

Well, I actually have about 30 years of experience working in the nonprofit and business sectors. I am an award winning business leader. And I have managed teams that were upward into 200. Staff members, as well as some really small teams. So it's kind of been all over the map. I've worked in very large nonprofits, and in very small nonprofits, and I've owned my own businesses and work for private companies as well.

Leighann Lovely 02:29

That is a wow, that's amazing. That is a very broad, you know, Knowledge Base experience based, which is why I was so thrilled that you accepted my invitation to come on and talk with me today. So nonprofit space, is something that I've yet to be able to, you know, kind of dive into with somebody. So I'm excited that you've joined me. Tell me a little bit. Well, first, you're an author. Yes. So tell me about you. Tell me about that. Tell me about your book.

Nancy Major 03:04

So I wrote a memoir, it's called A Wretch Like Me, a Modern Day, Mary Magdalene Saved By Grace. And it is my personal story. And part of my journey of healing and recovery from a period of time in my life that was really a deep secret. And it was something that I kept hidden for many, many years. And I feel by the grace of God, I was saved from that. And given an opportunity to actually be able to write a book to be a roadmap of help and healing for others who maybe are hiding in silence and feeling in bondage to shame or past trauma. And I kind of have a firsthand account of that myself. And so this was really a way to help people in a in a different arena.

Leighann Lovely 04:02

And that's awesome. We need more people who are willing to share and talk about things that are, I guess, hard in order to help others come forward and heal, and to move past those traumas in their life. It's amazing. The community and understanding and empathy of others is one of the greatest tools that we have as humans, which is why I love what's happening in today's world with more and more people sharing. Because it is I in my personal opinion, the greatest and the quickest path to to healing.

Nancy Major 04:45

I have 100% I couldn't agree with you more. I think that coming up alongside each other, we lift each other higher, and we have a greater chance of actually recovering from some One of the most traumatic things that could ever happen to us. And without one another, I don't know how we recover. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 05:10

Couldn't have said that better. So, so I commend you, I thank you for, you know, sharing those things. And that's, you know, part of the rise is and the reason that I started this podcast was because of my own personal journey, and it is now obviously turned into so much more and because my personal journey was also part of the human resource side of being discriminated against, and people not understanding me because I wanted to be professional and, and, well, when you suffer from bipolar disorder, it's sometimes difficult to present all the time. And so anyways, getting back to where we were. So this is now tied into your story of what you're doing now. You, right, you recently went out on your own. So tell me a little bit about about that, and what you're doing what your journey looks like now.

Nancy Major 06:06

I'm so excited, because it kind of touches on what we were just saying about community about mentoring and about helping to come up alongside someone else, who is maybe walking through a difficult journey and a difficult path. So what I did is my book kind of launched into a business called miracles manifested, because I truly believe that that is my life experience is that it's been one miracle after another, that has become manifest in my own life. And so I wanted to be able to use that as a way to help others. So my practice is really specializing in helping women overcome sexual shame and trauma, because it is probably some of the more taboo darker side that a lot of people who don't want to talk about, it's really in this, you know, darkness. And I think that shame lives and exists, because it stays in darkness. And when we bring it into the light, we can actually heal it. And for me, that was really important about this business. So I coach women and work with them through a Christian practice of mentorship and coaching and help them really develop tools, practical, tangible tools, things I've learned through my own journey of recovery. And I have a special certification in this particular kind of work. And I'm really excited to be able to offer that I'm also a professional speaker. And I work with different groups, different organizations that maybe have a women's group or a Bible study or domestic violence, shelter, or even a prison ministry, wherever people are hurting. And it's a dark place. And you know this a lot as well, Leanne, it is so easy to get hopeless and feel. So despaired. And that is really what I wanted to make a difference in.

Leighann Lovely 08:08

That's amazing. And you coming up in a non and not for profit space where you've worked in, in a not for profit, where it was very similar. You've done some work with organizations that have similar values, similar backgrounds, that really just kind of, I feel like it's kind of serendipitous, and it actually kind of just created this beautiful path for you to eventually find yourself here. Yeah,

Nancy Major 08:37

I kind of feel like the same thing. I feel like God gave me this really wonderful opportunity to sort of practice right. So really, for 30 years, I've had a lot of different experiences for causes that were near and dear to my heart. And he really gave me just tremendous opportunities to learn different skills and different abilities to really hone in on some of the gifts and talents I would need in this new work. And so my nonprofit experience has really parlayed beautifully into what I'm doing today, and I am still a nonprofit consultant. So I do work with a lot of small and medium sized nonprofits. When they're working through strategic planning, board development, staffing, wink wink, because we both know that that is an ongoing when you're dealing with human beings, right? So you're dealing with people and whether it's in a for profit space or nonprofit space, a cause you really care about a cause you could care less about a product regardless of which space it's in. It's still about the people, right? So at the bottom, at the bottom of it all it's all about the people and that's a big part of my experience with the nonprofit space.

Leighann Lovely 09:55

So let's hone in on that. Obviously you know that this season and And this season is about, you know, really the focusing on the hiring, the retention, the training. And there's a lot of staffing companies out there that will not touch non for nonprofit organizations, just because, you know, when when I think especially, you know, when I think of nonprofit and for profit businesses, I think, Wow, there's so drastically different. Right. I mean, that's just the first thing that you would think, right. It's a natural thing that I think and, and I've had, I've been approached by other, you know, other nonprofits. I know many people in that space. And I've always said it, I'm not sure that I can help. But you and I, you know, we, prior to hitting the record button, we talked a little bit about this. So let's start off with the, you know, a simple question, how drastically different is it when it comes to the, I don't know, the the, the inner core of a nonprofit versus a for profit, the day to day business?

Nancy Major 11:04

Yeah, that's a really great question I get asked this a lot. There are a lot of people who believe it's vastly different. And really, there's one central difference in a for profit, all of the profits made from that business can be used, however, the owner or shareholders of that company, see fit, whichever way that they want to spend the money, it's up to them to do that, in a nonprofit space, all proceeds that are generated, because believe it or not, nonprofits need to be profitable, otherwise, they are not sustainable. And they can't actually hire good people retain good people invest in their people, invest in trainings, provide better services, etc. It just means that all of the profits made within a nonprofit, have to go in, into back into the organization's mission. So that is mission delivery, Mission knowledge, Mission expansion. So let's think of it in this way, if you're a humane society, and you start out and you are serving, you maybe are able to handle 50 animals in the course of your business. But the need is for 1000. And you're currently only serving 50. And you want to grow into that 1000 Number, the nonprofit space just is that everything that's made within that business is going to grow to serve more animals in a case of like a humane society. That's that's really the only difference. It's it's that is the core differentiator between a for profit and nonprofit.

Leighann Lovely 12:47

Interesting. And you would think as me being a, an intelligent person, I you know, I say this, I believe that I am an intelligent person, maybe I'm not. But you would think that I would have a better understanding of that. And now I do I now I truly do have a better, you know, because I think oh, people who work at nonprofits must be, you know, this is a horrible thing. They must be so poor, you know, they don't make any money, which is not true, which is not true. Right? Not at all. Because it has, it has nothing to do with what they make, it just has to do with how the how the business itself operates and what they're allowed to do with their money.

Nancy Major 13:32

Correct. And whether it's taxable or not, right. So it has a tax exempt status, that for profit businesses don't. But all the other elements of running a nonprofit, really are very similar. Except I would say the the other big difference is usually it is in support of a cause or a mission, that is to better society, it's to better a community to better a population of people. So it just depends on what their causes. But, you know, I think most companies if you really boil that down, all companies should strive anyway to make a difference more than make a buck. Right? And and if you're a decent company, that's really why you're in business is you want to make a difference in whatever way shape or form that takes. And in the nonprofit field, it's supposed to be right 100% That way that it is operating, it was founded, to make a difference in the lives of those that live work and play in any specific community.

Leighann Lovely 14:36

Interesting. So when it comes to, you know, hiring and training and retention, it shouldn't operate too much different than because we're not talking about you know, at a for profit versus a nonprofit, offering people $5 Difference itself salaries, we're talking about scope, we're talking about still being able to hire people at the market value, fair value. And we're talking about still being able to have adequate training, because it's still running as a business.

Nancy Major 15:16

Right? That is the ideal, the ideal scenario is that you are hiring people and gaining talent, because talent is what will make make your mission successful will make it grow. It's the same as any other business in that sense, right. So it's all about the people. The difference in some of the smaller nonprofits that I've seen is that hitting that market value rate is very painful is very difficult, because it is all based on money. So that's really true. The same in a for profit, though, if you're a small, independent or smaller business, you may not be able to pay somebody, you know, six figures for a position that a larger company easily could pay with Goldstar benefits. So many of the nonprofits that I've worked with, didn't offer benefits, for example, any kind of health insurance, retirement plans, any sort of benefits at all, they were lucky if they were able to offer vacation time. So paid vacation time. And that's changed, I would say the market, you know, the marketplace has driven some changes that are beneficial and are making it more clear that this is really hard work, it's it's not an easy thing to make a difference in the lives of the most vulnerable populations that exist in our communities. Nonprofits often are serving a gap where no one else is doing the work. We don't have the government programs doing it or capable of doing it or being able to expend the dollars to do it, but the needs still is there. So take, for example, child abuse prevention. Let's just take that as a topic, right. So we know that child protective services is so overworked at the government level, how many times you read about or see the newspaper reports that are just tragic that these caseworkers have triple and quadruple the numbers of cases that what any one person should be able to handle. So we know then that there's an overflow of the problem? Well, who's going to step in, who's going to stand in the gap, these children require services, it's critical to us as community members that children are being served, someone has to stand in the gap. So thus, a nonprofit gets formed to be a stand in the gapper, right, we're going to take on this cause and serve, let's say x percent of that overflow, we can't serve all the need, but you're going to step in to try and take some of that overflow. And that's how a lot of the nonprofit's I'm familiar with anyway, that's how many of them got formed is because they are standing in the gap where other services aren't able to keep up. And so we also in the nonprofit space, have the advantage of being able to raise donations and do fund freezing, which is other people who then care about said cause can donate dollars that often are tax write offs, so to speak, or at least you know, I'm not a tax attorneys. So don't ask me. But that's the way it was anyway, that they were deductible, you could make a donation to set organization because you care about that cause. And that is a way that nonprofits very often are able to function a little bit more nimble, and flexible and fluid because the donations they receive allow them to turn the corner sharper, right? If they need to go left, they go left if they need to go right they go right. And they can do that on a dime, versus a government entity, let's say or school system or a hospital system or some other huge corporation where you have layers and layers of bureaucracy and red tape. In a smaller nonprofit, you have the ability to be much more agile and flexible and fluid and you can change and evolve rapidly, which is so needed in Human Services, organizations that are serving, like I said, the most vulnerable of different populations.

Leighann Lovely 19:38

Interesting. So with the fundraising function, the those dollars that those organizations raise, those are not tax if I'm understanding this right, that is those are non taxable dollars to that organization that they turn around and reinvest directly by back into their business to continue to push their mission forward.

Nancy Major 20:04

Exactly, exactly, exactly, you hit it right on the head. Awesome. That's how it works.

Leighann Lovely 20:10

And then, and then then organization in, you know, would hopefully continue to grow and serve whatever population or whatever mission they write are serving,

Nancy Major 20:22

Right. And they either provide services, let's say on a wider so so they have basically two goals, right? Much like most companies, they either want to expand their footprint where they're reaching out to more people, they're able to provide their service to more people, or they're going deeper, where the services themselves become more and more and more deeper in into specific topic. Like if it's child abuse prevention, let's say you really want to train schools, or churches or hospital settings or companies for how to be aware of child abuse, how to prevent it, how do you make sure that you have safety protocols and policies in place that are instrumental? Well, if a nonprofit doesn't go deeper into that into those subject matters, right, it can't really provide the breadth and depth of services that are actually needed. So it just depends. I mean, it depends on the goals of that particular nonprofit. But that's typically it's one of two goals or both that they want to go wide, or they want to go deeper. They want to, they want to devote

Leighann Lovely 21:30

Interesting. So you've you've managed and you've run and you you have a very specific area of expertise. Yes, you you're exceptional at helping nonprofits really hone in on their mission and grow from conception in that first kind of year to years, correct?

Nancy Major 22:01

Correct. I would say that's true. So really getting specific about their mission, really understanding the story around the cause. And it has a lot to do with that. Because there are so many different opinions that can enter into a conversation. Different people can have different opinions about the mission, but what's the real story? And when you really think about marketing a business, this goes back to the similarities, right? In any kind of business, you really have to hone in on what value proposition do you bring to the market? Well, the same thing is true in a nonprofit language. What value proposition do you bring to the market? What's your story? What's your deal? What is your mission doing to better this community or this region? Or this country? Or blah, blah, blah, whatever it is? What is it specifically, that's going to touch the hearts and minds of people to move their hand to write a check or give you money? Right, right. So this story moves the hand. Right? Right. It's the story. So if I tell you, Oh, this causes to combat this chromosomal gene malformation in, you know, an infant in this range of age, and this particular sex, you know, and this, whatever, you know what I'm saying, right, it gets really, really complicated. Versus, hey, we have babies that are dying by these numbers. And here's, here's what we're trying to do. To stop that or prevent that you see what I mean? I'm just cutting right to the chase, you're getting right in there with this is what it's about. So it's simplifying the message, boiling it down. So anyone anywhere can understand what it is that this nonprofit is trying to achieve. And that's really my specialty is really understanding, taking a complicated story, and boiling it down into the most basic template for anyone to understand. And then really training staff really going in hard on really trying to help the team understand that message so that we're all saying the same thing. So that this mission is clear, no matter who's hearing it, and no matter who's saying it. It's repeatable. It's memorable, and people want to give to it.

Leighann Lovely 24:30

So what do you think is the most difficult aspects of doing that? I mean, is it training the team? Is it getting the message is it hiring that team? What I mean, yeah, all made that sound like it was oh, yeah, yeah, I can do that in my sleep. Like you just like yep, that's what I do. That's, um, I can do it in my sleep.

Nancy Major 24:57

It's probably a lot like you. Yeah, I'm like It's just familiarity, right? So the more and more you do something, the better and better you get at it, the more you can recognize different things, you recognize red flags, you sort of get better at your gut instinct about people's personalities, what their passion is. And so you lead with passion. To me, Passion is everything passionate about the mission, especially when you're hiring nonprofit staff. If the person that you're hiring could care less about the mission of the organization, what are the chances that no matter what job you give them, that they're actually really going to be there for the right reason. And we need people to be there for the right reason, specifically in nonprofit work, I would say this hands down, passion Trumps anything, right? Anything all day long, because Lian, if you care about, name it, whatever that is you care about, it's so much that it moves you to tears, it moves you to write a check, it moves you to go to an organization's Gala, you want to go and pack bags for this, you want to pack a backpack, whatever it is, right? Whatever your deal is that you really care about. That's the kind of person that any nonprofit, we could take a person who has a completely different background in skills and talent, and we can teach them what we need them to know that we can't teach them passion for the mission. So first hire for the passion about the mission. And when you go into an interview, this is one of the things I've done a lot is telling me, tell me about our mission, I want to hear it from them, right, I need to hear it as the interviewer, I need to hear it from them, I've got to be able to pick up on why they care about this mission. And so much so that they want to work at this cause. So I think that's really important. I think that's true in in any line of work. But I think it's especially true when you're trying to make a huge difference in vulnerable populations of whether it's children, animals, people, you know, whatever that particular cause is, right? So you're hiring for passion, and then really, it's the investment, it's the investment from whether you're a business owner, or you're the leader of a nonprofit, or you're the leader of this department, or division, or whatever it may be in a nonprofit, this is same exact truth. It's the investment in the training, it's the investment in the person you hire. Because if you just bring them in, they're super passionate, they're gone home, they're all excited, yay, I started my new job, I'm so excited, I can't wait to get started. And then you just dump them out there on the street, go at it, figure it out, we're so busy, we don't have any time to tell you what, what we actually need you to do, or how to do it, or what the what the tools are that we have or how to use the tools, or we need you to research find out what tools we actually need for you to do the job that we've hired you to do. Maybe that's as simple as this. But sometimes I think people just hire really great people, and then they just leave them on their own. And they don't reinvest in them. And so

Leighann Lovely 28:15

I'm gonna, I'm gonna interrupt you here for a second. So as you're speaking, I'm hearing the similarities in hiring for a for profit versus a non for profit. But I'm also hearing the differences. I can hire a salesperson who is not necessarily wildly passionate about selling. You know, whatever the staffing services, for instance, and I can, I can find something in them, that drives them. Typically, in the for profit space, if somebody is really driven by money, I can figure out a way to trigger that person to do a really great job, through the idea of here's what you're capable of making, if you sell XYZ, if you do it this way. And if they're a really highly money driven person, at the end of the day, I could figure out how to pull that passion out of them, so that it translates to what they're selling. In the for profit space. Sure. And there's there's different ways that you can tweak that. And eventually they can become passionate about their project or their their product and they can and they can figure out how to sell it well and they can figure out how to talk. The thing that you do have to no matter what in any sales role is you have to you have to be passionate about people you have to like people you have to like to build relationships. And the thing that that irks me every time I talk to salespeople is when they say yeah, I hate I hate I hate people and I look at him and I go wait a second you're in the business of, of people you sell to people like so. And I'm always I'm always, that's the one thing, you have to have a passion and a love for sale. The difference that I'm finding in an in a nonprofit setting is that you really do have to have a passion for your cause, that you need to wake up and be truly passionate about the cause that you're representing. It's not something you can fake.

Nancy Major 30:26

Right? It's not, you can't just hire a robot to do it. That's true.

Leighann Lovely 30:31

Right? It's, it's not something that you can fake. And that is, the one true difference that I'm, that I'm, that I'm hearing here is that. And that is definitely a, I'm gonna guess the reason that finding amazing people in the nonprofit space is much more difficult than finding just a simple salesperson, or person to go out and raise capital for, or raise awareness for that cause. Because the language is going to be wildly different than me calling up and saying, Hey, I see that you have a job opening. And I'd really love to talk to you about how I can assist you, it's going to be wildly different than calling up and saying, Hey, I'm representing this cause. And, you know, we would love to see if you're interested in investing some dollars in that, because at the end of the day, there's, there's no, they're not buying. They're not getting anything. They're just giving money.

Nancy Major 31:47

They're contributing to something bigger than themselves, they get to be the hero in the story. And that's how that pitch is different. Yes, then a for profit. And I would say to you, I would challenge you on this a little bit, LeAnn that it is somewhat similar, because your best salespeople actually really care about helping a client a prospect, a prospective client through solving a problem, right, they've got a problem. And this company over here provides x service or x product that is supposedly going to solve this problem. That's the thing, right, and if you have passionate salespeople, they really care about helping this client over here solve their problem, if they're really good at what they do in sales, they care, right? They care about providing the solution, and they they love that idea of being able to help people. I think if people are just 100%, money motivated all the way around, whether it's nonprofit, or for profit, I think that's you're gonna find people like that. But I think that's like a hamster wheel. You're just chasing around a wheel. And the carrot is is only going to be you know, you can do that for only so long. And then money isn't enough. In my in my aspiration is not enough. I think you need more in life to be a whole unhappy person. Something they that gets you out of bed out of bed in the morning is probably a little bit bigger than money in my mind, and

Leighann Lovely 33:26

I just, I was just like, yeah, they're like, I wasn't saying that. You know, the only thing that they're passionate about is money. But I know a lot of salespeople pull out your passion. Correct? Yep. Right. And after you figure it out, because again, when I started in sales, my motivator was, I want to make a lot of money. And it's through figuring out that Yep. Okay, this is a this is an industry I can do that. I figured out wow, I have so many loves for like, I really figured out that I love you know, the HR Well, I knew that I loved that, but I but I do enjoy I love being the consultants, and and finding solutions and helping and on so many fronts, but I love sales. Like I love everything about sales. I love helping others understand sales I love and I'm intrigued by how there are similarities and yet that's different. There are some differences. Right? And it's, again, you know, I'm on a tangent here, but so I just I you know, I have this podcast because I get to talk to awesome people, and they teach me things.

Nancy Major 34:48

Right. It's fascinating. You're different. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 34:52

yeah. So okay. Where were we before I rudely interrupted

Nancy Major 34:57

Oh, retention? Yeah, it's talking about retention. And so you have to invest in the people that you hire, and you've got to really make sure that they have the right tools to that's really important. What resources do they need to do the job? What are the tools that you have. So if you want somebody to design, for example, some really kick butt marketing materials for this cause, but you have absolutely zero tools for them to do the designing. Or to come up with that, or to put something together, that's probably going to be a little bit of a mess you're going to have to find, and then this is the cool part. In nonprofits, there are so many different opportunities through college campuses, and internships, and young people like that are in high school, where the parents of these teens, sometimes they all might, you know, my son, or my daughter is really awesome at building websites, let's say they're really wanting to go into that in school. And they may be able to help your nonprofit by bringing in someone who's got a gift in that area. And does that make sense? Where maybe you might be a little more intimidated by doing that in a for profit, or you wouldn't even think to do that, right. But the nonprofit field is, they're just well, well known for being extraordinarily scrappy. I mean, extraordinarily scrappy. They'll use just about anything to get it done.

Leighann Lovely 36:24

Right, when it makes sense. And, but not only does it make sense, it also is giving opportunity in a way that others wouldn't have, like I'm a college student who I can now use that as a, as a, on my, on my portfolio when I'm going and looking for a job. And that is that's amazing for that individual to be able to say, Well, when I was in college, I built this website, and then I'll maintain and or I've helped you marketing material for them. And that's, I wish more companies would do that. Yes. Yeah, I wish.

Nancy Major 37:05

I'm with you on that. Because I think videography, you think about all these the social media platforms and managing social media, which is super time consuming and tricky for a lot of people to be able to get their arms around. And we have a younger generation. And we have students out there that are super excited about that. You have so many opportunities in the nonprofit realm to really hone in on and and allow others that we may be winning, think of to give them different opportunities. I even had some Boy Scouts and Girl Scout troops that were competing for different levels of awards. And they built some of the most incredibly creative things that were super necessary at these nonprofits that I was at. And they got to, you know, wear the badge of honor, because they won the award, they got the experience, they got the number of volunteer hours, they needed, whatever that might be. And the nonprofit was able to get what they needed. So there's so many synergies, you know, with these different organizations, like if you think of the Boys and Girls Club, and you mix them with the Humane Society, right. So the collaborative opportunities, right, that is also, I would say, gives us a little bit of a difference between for profit and competition.

Leighann Lovely 38:30

Right. Right. And, and I'm gonna guess that that for profit organizations wouldn't even consider or think of that, because they're not in that space. And I'm also going to say that maybe, maybe for profits would have to get a special permission. I don't know. I don't know. I guess it would seem, I don't know. But it's, it's awesome. Right, like if a for profit company were to come out and say, Hey, we have a great app. Well, no, I don't. We have a great opportunity. Yeah, they have internships. Right. But, but a lot of a lot of people will say if you don't for a for profit, if they don't pay the internships, a lot of those companies will be like, Well, come on, just pay them a little bit of money because they are for profit. When it's a nonprofit, you don't think like, well, how dare you not pay? Because there's a there's a true cause? Yeah. Or is it? You know, they're, I mean, you're because you're, you're working, you're all working in synergy towards something greater than you. Right? So I guess there's I guess, when that would be the, that's the difference. Yeah. That is the difference. And that just dawned on me. Because when it is a for profit, you kind of go come on if you're going to ask for free help.

Nancy Major 39:49

Yeah, but when it's the profit

Leighann Lovely 39:53

when you're gonna pocket. Exactly. Yeah. And that I think that we I think we just solved that. Add is why. That's why there's a difference. Because, however with like the website thing, yeah, why not reach out to a college students say, hey, help us out with this, and we'll we'll throw you.

Nancy Major 40:13

Like, whatever the price is, you know, whatever this amount comes out to be.

Leighann Lovely 40:19

Correct well, but we'll give you a little extra. And and here's the thing, it doesn't have to be perfect, you can, you can always have an internal person, do a little bit of tweaking to it, you can always have it updated. And instead of getting a $5,000 bill from a professional, you've now got that $5,000 bill down to $1,000. And you can take to college student, you know, $1,000. And now you're, you're still better off than you were. And yeah, I mean, yeah,

Nancy Major 40:47

There's so many ways to do service projects and ways to think about collaborations. And I think that there is an abundance mindset. In a nonprofit, like you have to you have to have an abundance mindset. You can't have a scarcity mindset, right? So we all boats rise, right? And instead of this, I'm going to eat you for lunch. Right? Like you can't, you just can't survive in the nonprofit space with that mentality. I think that, you know, it's it is fiercely competitive when it comes to the dollars you're trying to raise, of course, because there's a bazillion causes. Right? Just think about it. I mean, think about that. Put churches in the mix. Right? They're nonprofits, right? Then you think about some of the hospitals. There are many hospitals that are nonprofit. Yep. Now you've got them. You've got schools, let's add schools in the mix. So you've got churches, schools, hospitals that are considered nonprofits, those that are and you add them into the organizational, the community organizations that you know of that exist, to think about competition is pretty fierce,

Leighann Lovely 42:05

Which is weird, just because I don't think of schools as being non profit yet. unwritten. Here's a funny story. So my school, my daughter's school, they're like, hey, buy a t shirt, you know, spirit wear, and I was like, Oh, I gotta buy her a t shirt. And they have a Venmo account where you can just send the money that way. And I was like, well, I'll just, I'll just buy it. And I'll Venmo the money. But I didn't put what the money was for. So then when the t shirt never came, I'm like, Why did I never get the t shirt? Well, because Mommy, mommy brain and doing a million things. Never know, I never actually ordered the ticket. So there, you know, there's my, and what are you going to do? It's a nonprofit, you're not going to call them and be like, Hey, can you tracked on the $20 that I sent via Venmo that I never marked was for the t shirt that I was supposed to get for my daughter? I'm like, Oh, my God. I mean, it is. You forget, so every time I go there, and they have some type of fundraiser going on or whatever, you know, I, yeah, I kick them. Don't even think about it, I just kick them 40 bucks and for whatever, you know, flight by, you know, tickets for this, you know, fundraiser, put your you know, and I go in, and I like half the time. I'm like, I don't even feel like putting these tickets and I'll just buy $40. Right. And you don't you don't even think about the fact that yeah, this is a fundraiser to get all of the supplies that they need for the school.

Nancy Major 43:33

Right. And that was the only probably get X amount of funding. And this is above and beyond what this funding allows. Many nonprofits operate the same.

Leighann Lovely 43:41

Right? Right. And it goes to the you know, the school district for them specifically so they can buy, you know, and then I regularly get like notification of, hey, we're, we need more supplies for this, you know, donate and then last specifically for the supplies. And I was like, Okay, well, I'll go and drop off that a lot of times it's for like this. They do cooking classes on on Wednesdays and you go out just drop off cooking supplies stuff. And it's I don't even think about the fact that they're doing that because they're non profit. And they rely on the on the parents. Right? Because because you don't pay for her to go to school. I'm not paying for her to go to school.

Nancy Major 44:25

Well you do through your tax. Right. So much dollars, you know, like it's in and a lot of nonprofits do receive federal funding for state or county funding up to a certain dollar amount, but it's so limited. So let's say let's say a homeless shelter is providing homeless housing for the homeless and they get a state stipend up to $1 amount for that spot. Right for that human being they get X amount of dollars per day, whatever that might be. Right. But let's say it cost them four times that actual reimbursement. You see what I mean? So that they can receive this funding. But it doesn't mean it's going to cover all their expenses. In fact, like 99.9% of the time, it does not cover what it actually costs. Right? She's a drop in the bucket. And that's true in almost all all things. Yeah. So that, but it is a highly competitive market. And so when you think about fundraising, that's why you go back to the right kind of staff, the passion for the cause the investment in training.

Leighann Lovely 45:38

So Nancy, we are coming to time. So I have the question of the season. It's relevant to some people, others it's not, but what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your job? Or your role? If you could?

Nancy Major 45:57

I think that I would help board members understand that the person that they hired to do the job, they hired for a reason, and they have expertise and skills and abilities, and that maybe a little bit more trust going in, going into that. I think both ways. I think that goes a long ways.

Leighann Lovely 46:21

Awesome. Now, if somebody wanted to reach out, contact you, how would they go about doing that? What's the best way?

Nancy Major 46:29

Sure. So I have a website and it is miraclesmanifested.com or Nancy major.net. Whichever one you want to use Nancy major dotnet might be it's the same they all kind of connect together. So Nancy at Nancymajor.net or just through my website is fine to Nancy major dotnet.

Leighann Lovely 46:49

And can they find your book there?

Nancy Major 46:52

Yes, they can, A Wretch Like Me A Modern Day, Mary Magdalene Saved By Grace, it's available on Amazon as well.

Leighann Lovely 46:58

Excellent. Nancy, this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate your time. I've learned so much from you just in the short period of time. So like I said, I really appreciate it.

Nancy Major 47:10

It's been awesome. Thank you so much, man for having me on as a guest today. Yeah, I appreciate it. Look forward to keep it in touch.

Leighann Lovely 47:17

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Nancy

Website - https://nancymajor.net/ or miraclesmanifested.com

Book by Nancy Major – A Wretch Like Me – available on Amazon

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPY

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

nonprofit, people, profit, business, mission, nancy, money, companies, organization, difference, services, hiring, person, helping, dollars, serving, passion, true, find, tools

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This is one conversation that you will not want to miss, Erin Marcus is a brilliant businesswoman that has years of experience in the corporate world that eventually lead to running her own business. She helps businesses and individuals get out of their own way to start running their businesses and stop letting their businesses from running them. She is a Founder, CEO, and Speaker for Conquer Your Business. She helps companies figure out what needs to do done next.

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Erin Marcus 02:25

So excited to be here. All good on the technology front. It this is just how we live now. It's perfectly fine.

Leighann Lovely 02:32

So why don't you? Why don't you give us a little introduction of yourself?

Erin Marcus 02:36

Sure. Awesome. So the short answer for the relevant for your audience, right. So I had a big fancy corporate career, I absolutely loved it. I was very lucky in two different places to have amazing mentors and amazing opportunities. C suite level in a extremely large insurance brokerage firm, and got to the point in my career, where I felt like I needed to do something that was mine. So after trying to pay all the other people on my team to go tell our boss I was leaving, because it was just so monumentally upsetting to me at the time, I finally left there, too, and went into the franchise world I talk about, I probably couldn't be doing what I'm doing now. One, I needed to learn more things. But also, I didn't make a full leap. I went into a franchise system, which is a system right. Instead of creating my own thing, I had my franchise for six years, I got to the top 10 out of 200 offices in about 18 months. And the franchise owner would then ask me to train new franchise owners speak at their meetings speak at their conventions, I did a lot of marketing and processes that I would just give to the home office to distribute to the rest of the system. Because my background was business. My background was business and I was at a C suite level and corporate half my job there was helping our accounts develop their business. Then when I got into the franchise, I found that I loved helping the system build the business even more than I loved what we were doing. So finally, after playing in that world for 20 years, I just took it on completely and started conquer your business where what we really focus on now is my favorite thing to do. And only took me 20 plus years, but my favorite thing to do, which is to help driven entrepreneurs, create the scale and branding strategies they need to get to that multiple six figure seven figure business.

Leighann Lovely 04:54

That's awesome. That's awesome and you know it nothing ever starts in a day. We find our way over time. And it's you know, so that I mean, that's, that's brilliant, and who wouldn't want to hire somebody who's followed that, you know, success path and able to help, especially new entrepreneurs who are trying to really blindly finding their way.

Erin Marcus 05:20

Yeah, and I think truthfully, that's one of my differentiators is, I hate and I have a, I had a really hard time calling myself a coach. Because there were way too many coaches out there, who I felt had never done what they're trying to teach. And I didn't want to throw my hat in that ring, little judgy of me, and it's not like they come from a really good place of wanting to help people. It's not a malicious intent. But there's a disconnect. And at the same time, truthfully, three quarters of what I do is consulting. I'm like, Dude, this is what you got to do. That's consulting coaching. The coaching part comes in, when we hit a terror barrier, where we, when we hit impostor syndrome, the coaching part of my business comes in, when we put together a plan that consciously the business owner wants, but subconsciously, we've got to break through some fears in order to do it. And to me that, oh, my god, like that is the magic. The plans not hard for me, like I can't help but do it. I see people's businesses and my brain just goes rearranging their ducks, and putting a different umbrella over it. I can't not do that. But the plan doesn't matter if the person can't do the plan. So the amazing, amazing experiences I get to have is when I work with someone on a conscious level, the business planning and all the cool things. And then they go and they make their breakthroughs and make it happen for themselves.

Leighann Lovely 06:57

And that's, that's half the battle, right? I mean, we we as people understand, you know, on paper what needs to happen, but often getting there emotionally and mentally. And I and I specifically say emotionally, because our decisions are, are driven on an emotional level, most of the time.

Erin Marcus 07:17

Every single, every single decision we made, every single decision we make is based on emotion and then justified with logic. One of the things I do teach is sales. And I laugh all the time about every single decision, buying decisions, especially, they're made with emotion, and then justified with logic. And one of the examples I use is my car. I have a Mini Cooper. It has a turbo engine. It has lights inside, I can change colors, not like two options, like seven options, like every color of the rainbow. It has a sunroof, that's the entire, like, width length of the car. Where am I going in the Chicago suburbs that I need a turbo engine? Where am I going that even if I wanted to, I could use a turbo engine. Know between you and me like this thing does 100 miles an hour 60

Leighann Lovely 08:17

I'm not I'm not sure you understand the concept of a podcast. This is not just between you and me.

Erin Marcus 08:23

But that those are all emotional decisions, right? And then I justify it with logic by saying I got a great deal on it, it gets great gas mileage, right? I can park that sucker anywhere. Because it's like, the size of a purse, right? I got all sorts of logical reasons I can justify having a bright blue car that drives more like a jet. It changes colors.

Leighann Lovely 08:54

It's the same, you know, I'm going to go on a diet, but then, you know, three days in, I'm going to have a cookie. And I can justify that and you know, emotionally I just really want this cookie because it tastes good. It makes me feel good.

Erin Marcus 09:07

Addicted to it where our wants have us in, right our habits habits in a rut. And it's so hard to break out of those ruts.

Leighann Lovely 09:14

And logically, I'm going to I'm going to be able to justify this because I did really good for the last three days. That I mean, that is what we as humans do.

Erin Marcus 09:24

It's just how it works. The way that I describe that for people is give yourself a break. But don't let yourself off the hook. Like give yourself a break in these types of situations. Whether you're on a diet, whether you're trying to go to the gym, whether you're trying to not be a jerk to your spouse who you know, is doesn't you know, on the receiving end of a bad day have you like whether you're trying to grow your business and you're not doing the thing that you know you need to do? Give yourself a break because what you're up against isn't neuroscience and X amount of years of subconscious programming. However, don't let yourself off the hook. Because that doesn't mean you shouldn't do something about it.

Leighann Lovely 10:12

Absolutely. And I think that, especially and I, and I don't want to, well, no, I do, I'm going to,

Erin Marcus 10:20

Because here we go, right?

Leighann Lovely 10:24

It's very much in the older generation. Because they were not as younger kids taught emotional intelligence, right? So they have this, this, this is the way it is black and white. I don't allow emotions to come in. They hold themselves to a very hard standard black and white, this is it. The younger generation, they're lucky, they're being taught emotional intelligence, they're being taught, yes, it's okay to feel this way or that way. But, and as you know, obviously, I'm teaching my daughter from a young age emotional intelligence, it's okay to be mad about it. It's not okay to do X, Y, Z, or I still need to do whatever.

Erin Marcus 11:08

Right. And I think that's where we've seen the pendulum swing a little bit too far. Where I, you know, I know my truth has become an excuse for being a jerk. And those are two different things, totally different things. Right, you should feel your feelings, you don't have a right to infringe upon mine. Right. And it's just a pendulum. I mean, it really is. And we all figure out how to succeed and maneuver if it's important enough to us. And I don't get, I laugh, because if you watch any of the online jokes and headlines and things about what one generation says about the next, you can go back 50 years, and it's verbatim. It's the exact so this is just the process like this is, I don't know, we need something to talk about. So we make up and our brains have a negative bias. Just in general, that's how brains work. Its job is to keep you alive. So it looks out for risks, it takes everything as a negative, that's a job. So our brains have this negative bias to interpret things as negative. And we've got to fill 24 hour news. And we've got to fill 8 million channels, and we've got to meet the you know, and then you layer on top of that we've got to meet the financial requirements of advertising run platforms. Right? And it just is what it is.

Leighann Lovely 12:43

Well, and it's in it's funny that you seem to talk about the generations and how it goes, because I have people all the time asked me they're like, Well, isn't it the worst it's ever been isn't you know, is exact same? And that's what I said, you know, and I'm just out to dinner, you know, with a girlfriend of mine. And, you know, this, we were at a at a, like a bar restaurant thing. And we happen to be sitting up at the bar and this gentleman who was I believe he was slightly intoxicated, intruding in our conversation, which is absolutely fine. I don't care. I'm one of those. Bar, what did you think was gonna happen? Right? And he made the comment, he's like, Well, the world is the worst it's ever been. I said, No, it's not. I said, it's just different than what you know, from when we were younger.

Erin Marcus 13:24

The difference is, we all now are immersed in it, the pervasiveness of being surrounded by the negativity is worse than it's ever been. And because of the platform's actions that are happening, same actions, right. But the immersion in the negative messaging, like we didn't used to know, all this stuff was happening, we only knew our little world. And so what you're watching is a mixture of being aware of everybody's negative experiences. And not enough positive experiences to counter it, because it's just not what people cover. But the other thing that's happening is you're losing community. Right, you're losing sense of community, and the nuclear family would use to support people through this.

Leighann Lovely 14:24

Right. But there's also positives that are happening. And there's, there's always a balance. The unfortunate thing is that in the news, you only hear that negative, right? The things that are happening that are positive are we're seeing an actual, like, a light coming on. EQ and we also seeing awareness on things like neurodiversity, and mental health and all of these, you know, an addiction, drug addiction and all of not just drug any addiction. All of these things are now becoming you No, not because a lot of times less stigmatized, and people are starting to understand that these are not simply, you know, this guy doesn't simply just go out and get drunk every night because he chooses to want to be drunk.

Erin Marcus 15:14

It is actually a key, right? Our education around the why's of all of it. Why is this happened? How does it happen? Why does it happen? How does it happen? Has it just increased dramatically, and are the same platforms that immerse us in all this negative are the same platforms that share the information that allows solutions as well. And the trick is really like is to be selective and to be careful. I know for me, I'm not a negative person, I don't usually feel bad, I don't usually feel scared. I don't usually feel angry on a regular basis. So I know, if I'm starting to feel those feelings as default. I got to step away from it. Right? I have to step away from it. Because, again, it's just the way our brains work. When you are completely immersed in surrounded by a certain type of message, you might start out not believing it, but you will start to believe it. Right, just because that's how it works.

Leighann Lovely 16:24

Yep. I completely agree with that. I knew at a young age, that if I watch tear jerker movies, that was, right, they they affected me for four days sometimes and I'm like, I can't watch. I can't watch this stuff. Because for whatever reason, it just that in that could be my brain chemistry of that stuff. Brings me to I started,

Erin Marcus 16:50

I got my MBA when I was 37. I was still in my corporate job and getting an MBA at the same time. So I was like, busy, and it was hard. It was hard. And so there was a lot of books and studying and my role in corporate was not like a nine to five punch in punch out situation. So around that time, I noticed, I only watched for entertainment lowbrow, non emotional, right? That never went away? I never went back to heavy drama. Yep. I mean, I don't watch heavy drama. I don't want the anxiety of the cliffhangers. Now senseless violence totally for Marvel, right?

Leighann Lovely 17:45

I'm a complete horror, like B movie horror buffs. Like, just completely, you know, the movie ends, everybody died. And I walk away. And I'm like, Yeah, that was like, Oh, my God, what's wrong with me?

Erin Marcus 17:58

Like I moved to I don't watch any I'm totally all over Marvel NCIS those type of stuff? I'm not. And it's not like those don't have anxiety situations. But what I won't do is watch anything that the basis of the entertainment is people being mean to people for entertainment sake. So a lot of the reality TV, I just why are we glamorizing being a jerk to other men? Right? Like if we're good and evil is different than just being a jerk to other humans. So I do,

Leighann Lovely 18:33

Neither do I. So I know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna kind of switch gears switch gears here, because we could just rant about, you know, all of this stuff for the next two hours. So I do have, you know, with your background, you know, I wanted to kind of re focus here. And I think this is a brilliant question for somebody with your background. You know, we kind of touched on this when we were talking previously. But I am of the belief and an actually, it's not really a belief. I believe that this is a fact. Entrepreneurs have an internal battle when they become entrepreneurs right there. It's the sales production, sales production. Entrepreneurs don't become entrepreneurs to become salespeople. Yet, in order to become an entrepreneur, you have to do sales. We agree on this. However, there's also an external battle that happens at businesses, you have your production and you have your sales. They often very much like the internal battle of an entrepreneur, there happens to be often a external battle that is happening at those companies of production and sales. And what I would love to learn from you today because you have done this created awesome teams that work cohesive Have we together? And this plays a great deal into being able to retain employees on both sides? Absolutely. And I would love to hear your take and how, how you're able to marry those together in order to create those teams, because it's a problem.

Erin Marcus 20:19

It's a problem. And I'll tell you what, the fact that we just had this random conversation isn't so random. Because what you're seeing out just in the United States and culture in general, is mirrored in companies. There's only one way to solve this problem. It's what is the culture of your company? This is a cultural problem. Meaning is the culture of your company, one that allows outrage, which, by the way, worst like this to me, as I pontificate about my opinions, because we know I have them. This is the problem right now, people's default emotion is outrage, which inherently removes any opportunity for empathy, any opportunity for learning about another opinion, any opportunity, like outrage, everybody is outraged over everybody else's behavior. There's no middle ground, there's no conversation, everyone else is wrong. outrage. You're doing this to me on purpose. Right? Those are the feelings we have when we are outraged. And in with any company. If you allow that culture in your walls, you you're screwed. You are creating an us versus them mentality in your company, department versus Department. Who wants to be in that environment? Now, here's the thing. The difference is, and I'll just go use my background as an example. Because this was my job. We used to call what like, I was a one person department. I was a one person department I was I finally got an assistant. And then I got a second person. It's very exciting. But you know, 70 people in the company, and here's me in my department, what did I do? I manage the gap. I managed the gap. My job was yes to go out and create relationships. But I wasn't the only one doing it. The senior partners in the in the business would do what we would call a sales conversation, meaning the first touch point of do we want to work together? And then they would say, Okay, well Aaron knows how this actually works. And then I would come in and figure out how do we actually make it go? How do we get them to sign on the dotted line? How do we close the deal and implement it. And if we were going to close the deal and implement it, what I had to do was get the operations desk on in line with it, our sales team support in line with it, the Commission people, the people who paid the bills, and paid all these different people, everyone had to be pointing in the same direction. Or it didn't work. Because we worked in opposition to each other. And when you work in opposition to each other, you lose business, right? And so the truth of the matter is, whether you're talking about a government, or you're talking about an entrepreneur, or you're talking about a large business, culture starts at the top, period, hard stop, end of story, culture starts at the top. And if you have a culture that allows this department to blame that department. That's it. Like, this is going to be the like, I feel like the dumbest way to answer this question. Don't do that. Right. Don't do that.

Leighann Lovely 24:24

You know, I feel like some of the most complicated questions have the simplest answers.

Erin Marcus 24:28

Yeah, stop doing that. In here, so and you know, it's one of those things, it's easier to say, than do so why why is it easier to save and do it? To me, there's two parts to that. Number one, people's brains work differently. So the brain function of someone in it and the way that someone thinks who's in a process oriented part of your business where they like, process paperwork, process applications, that was our business, or maybe they're on the line? Right? Maybe they're in Mani Factoring and you're there on the line there on the floor. And the sales team and marketing team, these people think very differently from each other, their personalities are usually very different from each other. Right, you have to intentionally bring them together, left to their own devices, they will not agree with each other. Because for no other reason, then their brains work differently. Right. So you have to be very intentional, intentional, new word intentional about creating opportunities for them to understand each other for them to appreciate each other. Truthfully, and this is coming from a salesperson, we're arrogant jerks. We walk in there with like, dude, if I didn't just close this deal, none of you would have jobs like that's not helping. Right? And at the same time, if the people who fulfill the work, hate the salespeople, well, that's not helpful, because the sales person just, you know, the extrovert salesperson just went and made happy and made promises. And now the team fulfilling those promises. Is us against that, like, it just doesn't work, right? It doesn't work. So you have to understand that just from a personality profile way our brains work, we're going to be different. And then the other thing I think that contributes to the problem is the fact that internally, in a large company, this is hard to do, if you really think about it, it's a competitive environment. Because the concept of abundance doesn't fit in the corporate mold. Because in the entrepreneurial world, we say, it's not a pie, there's enough for everybody. But within a large company, that's not actually true. There's a finite number of a finite amount of money, how much is each department getting? This pits them against each other? Instead of collaborating on a team? If there's seven people on a team, and there's an opening for a promotion, only one person gets it. So now you're asking seven people to be a cohesive team, when maybe three of them want that promotion? How does like you're asking a lot of people. So it's inherently competitive. We're even if we do all like each other, and support each other underneath, we know, if you get a piece, a bigger piece of the pie, I get less, like, how many times do you see in corporate where, okay, the bucket of money for raises this year, is $10,000 Go divided up amongst your team. One person gets more one person gets less, you want to add in now, the people doing the same job aren't getting paid the same amount of money, or at least not getting paid based on experience. They're getting, like there's so much that goes into creating a scarcity mentality, a competitive, unfair feeling. And now add in the people in different departments think and work differently than each other. I mean, listening to me go on and on and on. It's amazing. Anything that gets done, right, like, we should be, maybe we should just be very proud of ourselves for accomplishing anything instead of disappointed that sometimes it's hard, right?

Leighann Lovely 28:47

It's amazing to hear you break all that down. Because, you know, I've been told that I'm not very good at playing the corporate game.

Erin Marcus 28:55

I suck at the corporate game, right? I did very well in corporate you know how to play the corporate game. Do a really good job. Right?

Leighann Lovely 29:02

Right. I might and I always default to my dad because my dad is always the son of reason for me. And every time I would get like upset or I would go and I would talk to him before I talk to anybody else because if I didn't I would say something really really stupid to my boss, because I would be like all riled up and I play over there my dad would go You did not say that to your boss, right? Oh, I can tell you story. I know. I you know,

Erin Marcus 29:27

And you get screaming matches where the rest office and my boss and I I mean, we still are very close relationship.

Leighann Lovely 29:35

And you get to a certain level in which you can start saying certain things to your boss as long as it's not in front of somebody else. You get to that certain point, right. But there is that there's the corporate there's the politics that go along with it. There's humans right along with all of the other crap app that you have to try to balance out with your, you know, co workers with getting your work done with, you know, the possibility and I've had this said, You, you and I'd have this, you know, again, we talk I've been told as a salesperson at a company outright by the team who's supposed to be fulfilling what I bring in, that they you know, why hate salespeople?

Erin Marcus 30:23

Well, so well. And here's the other thing. Okay, so let's add to that, let's add to the subconscious programming, that every person in that department has against salespeople. Because every cartoon that they've watched, every movie that they've seen, has a very, very negative story about sales. So why wouldn't they hit you? They have no reason not to write unless the top very, very intentionally while they are managing all the other things that they have to take care of. does something about it,

Leighann Lovely 31:02

Right reconditions re, you know, gets everybody's mindset and reminds them that sales is not the enemy. They are the ones bringing in the orders. But that makes that makes it sound like the salespeople are that much more arrogant.

Erin Marcus 31:21

Right? Exactly. And we are I was, oh my God, come on, like, well, and here's the thing, even if we don't mean it that way, the exuberance of closing a deal. A big, big, big deal can absolutely be interpreted by others as arrogance. Again, we're going back to different brain, different functions, right? Different different workings just appearing here.

Leighann Lovely 31:55

And here's the strange thing. If you asked me today, LeighAnn, what was the biggest deal you've ever closed? I can't tell you, Oh, I can tell you. So I can't tell you because my brain by the time I hit the they just signed seal, you're done. I was I was often going, Okay, you guys take care of this, I'll maintain the relationship with the client. But I don't really care about that. I just want to get the next sale because

Erin Marcus 32:20

I travel. That's a very true salesperson.

Leighann Lovely 32:23

I truly did not care about and I hate that question. People ask me, What is the biggest deal you've ever done? Well, I mean, I could sit here and think about it, it was I negotiated a national contract with, you know, a large company it was, but I can't even tell you the details anymore. Because I was I was already done. I signed it.

Erin Marcus 32:42

And that's very, you know, in going back to the idea of culture, and it's, you know, is there a culture of mutual respect? Is there a culture of openness? Is there going back to this idea of outrage you none of this works if outrage has any space in your business enough. In my company that I was in, we hired another salesperson, I was more of an account manager, relationship manager than a cold salesperson, I did some of that he was way better at it than I did. So we adjusted what we're doing. And he was a true salesperson. He honestly didn't care if you said yes or no, just don't waste his time. So he could move on. And that's who I used to. It was like a pinball, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. But we liked each other, and we respected each other. And I understood his personality, and he understood mine. And I, like I said, I my primary role was to manage the gap, meaning it was my job, truthfully, to protect the rest of the team from him. But he knew that, and they knew that, which meant which mean we were all fine. There was no judging. It was just this is who each individual is, this is. And so when things would get out of hand, one of the team would come to me and like, and I'm like, and I would just go up to him and like, Dude, you're killing me. rein it in. And if you want for a short period of time, big deal and

Leighann Lovely 34:15

and it's interesting, too, because salespeople like that, they often they don't see anything. They don't see anything else. And that's where I'm I don't I don't care if you say yes or no, until I know you. I don't have any skin in the game. Like, just give me an answer, respond to me and say, Hey, I appreciate you reaching out. I'm not interested because then I won't waste my time reaching out to you anymore. Just give me how many

Erin Marcus 34:40

people are. Yeah, and the truth is so many people are so afraid of sales, that they can't even fathom that. Right. They can't even fathom somebody who feels and thinks that way. So they literally just don't know what to do with it. Right?

Leighann Lovely 34:55

They're afraid so they don't respond. Well. If I respond, she's gonna think that I'm interested. Don't. It's like My husband and I.

Erin Marcus 35:01

Well there are other team members that like how could that crazy lady over there not care if

Leighann Lovely 35:09

There is so much business to be had that I would rather just get the Yes? Or the no and move on. Right?

Erin Marcus 35:16

One of the great one of the great sales training or sales pieces of advice that I ever got is the worst answer you could give me as maybe, yes. Oh, because it means I didn't do my job. It means I didn't do my job of connecting the dots for you, knowing that we were or were not a good fit, explaining our value understanding your problems. Someone who says maybe, or someone who's very ambivalent about your offer, and your conversation means I didn't do my job.

Leighann Lovely 35:50

Right. So you say you don't understand my offering. So you're

Erin Marcus 35:54

and I didn't understand their problem. You know, I mean, it's very,

Leighann Lovely 35:58

and I'm okay with the yes, I'm interested, but call me in six months.

Erin Marcus 36:05

Let me figure this out. I still have to sit with this a minute. That's totally Absolutely. Again, different brains process differently. Not everyone makes a decision in a minute and a half, that's different than someone who walks away, unsure of any of it.

Leighann Lovely 36:24

So if a company is struggling with, you know, the whole team dynamic, what would you what would be the

Erin Marcus 36:35

if you could we use? Yeah, we used to? It's culture, it's so how do you build culture? How do you build culture number one rate, you get to know people on a personal basis. The fact of the matter is nobody can really, really, really manage my talking like call center version, but nobody can really manage well, more than five people. If you're really going to have an intimate culture, asking somebody to manage a team of 50 people, without any additional layer of at least some you know, they don't have to be promoted, they could just be in charge of their team. Because you can't get that many people together and have that deep conversation, right? So from the top down is the culture one where we're all in this together, we're all moving in the same direction. Everybody's everybody's role is equally appreciated, that we have 000 tolerance for mistreatment of other team members, right? Zero tolerance for mistreatment of other team members, because every single person is respected for their contribution, right?

Leighann Lovely 37:57

And making sure that sales is not siloing themselves.

Erin Marcus 38:03

I mean, anybody, right? Like you, this is not just how do you solve sales against the rest of the company? This is how you solve anybody against the rest of it. Like? What is that culture and culture is not a once a year teambuilding event. Because if you have a nice, cheap rubber chicken dinner at the banquet hall, and the rest of the time, nobody intervenes, when people are harassing people or being jerks to people, people aren't doing here's the other thing, like holding people to expectations of doing their job is positive for the culture. Because when people don't, when you have team members who aren't doing their job, and everyone knows they're not doing their job, and nobody does anything about it, you'll kill morale faster than anything else, right? Why should I work so hard when that person gets the same promotions and accolades and benefits and doesn't do anything? Right? Yeah, people will leave that company. It's appreciate, you know, your biggest, biggest, biggest, biggest asset, are the humans in your business. Are you treating them as if each and every single one of them? Are you treating them as if they're the biggest asset in your business? I'll give you perfect. So before I went to the insurance company, I was in commercial real estate. I was in the marketing department of a international commercial real estate company and I worked in the Chicago suburban office side of things meaning big fancy office buildings in the suburbs of Chicago. And again, international company, and this was during the.com. Boom. So things were not money, money, money. The agents were making more as day traders than they were even making in their deals that they were doing. It was just a Crazy, crazy, crazy environment. And there was a true story because I knew who had happened to that a broker, a real estate broker on really, really high end agent in the New York office punched his administrative assistant,

Leighann Lovely 40:18

oh my God.

Erin Marcus 40:19

Now, it was a male, not a female, which doesn't make it okay, but doesn't make it quite as terrifying, right? That's a different level, right? So it was a male agent and a male administrative assistant punched the guy. Because of the outrage over I don't even remember, it was some kind of deals, some paperwork didn't get set properly. And now someone had to go clean up the mess. And they gotten one argument over who made the mistake, and the agent punched him. And nothing happened. Because the agent brought in millions and millions and millions of dollars. Oh, my God, what do you think that does to morale? What do you think? Why are you surprised that everyone hates salespeople? Right? When it's okay for a salesperson to punch somebody, right? Because they're making money. And now, all that's doing is reinforcing every negative impression that everyone else has of sales. Its culture, culture solves these problems. And if you're if you know, the horrible truth about being a leader, the horrible truth about being a leader is it's really, really easy to see if you're good at it or not. Just look around you. Are your people performing? Are your people getting along with each other? Are they committed to the business? That is a direct reflection of your leadership.

Leighann Lovely 41:43

And that's, excuse me, that is another shining thing that would be a whole nother episode,

Erin Marcus 41:52

I would like to do another. We're gonna rename this listen to Aaron rant about yet another time. It's,

Leighann Lovely 41:59

it's the the mistake that that multiple companies make. I have a really awesome salesperson, I'm just gonna promote them to be the sales manager.

Erin Marcus 42:09

That's two different jobs. Right, God, I will tell you a lot. My ex husband, my ex husband is a fantastic, fantastic, fantastic salesman. And they have, we're still in touch with youth, either. We've been divorced for, I don't know, 20 years. But he's a wonderful man. And he's a wonderful salesperson. And his company has tried to promote him to sales manager in a variety of ways. For decades, and we keep in touch, and I'm just constantly going, do they not know you, you don't like people? Like you don't have patience for anybody? Why are they Trump, he's a fantastic salesman, he is so good at serving his clients and making sure they have what they need, and going the extra mile. And he should not be in charge of a cat. And I teased him about this all the time, because he has no patience for people who don't do exactly what he does.

Leighann Lovely 43:14

And that is completely true.

Erin Marcus 43:16

It's fine. If you're listening to this, you know.

Leighann Lovely 43:21

And I've been in the same position, Lee, and we want you to mentor the other salespeople, we want them to do what you're doing

Erin Marcus 43:27

Most of you and you can't tell them what you're doing, because you're doing so instinctively that you don't know how you're doing. Right.

Leighann Lovely 43:33

Right. And then I'll ask, you know, okay, why I can explain to them, you know, the processes that I go through, but that's not gonna make them become or do what I do their job.

Erin Marcus 43:48

And I think a lot of people need to realize that about themselves. Because going back to the fact that I'm a business coach and consultant, and the fact that I was extremely hesitant to use the label coach, because I watched so many coaches, not for any malicious reason, but not be able, like, they can tell people what to do, they can't tell people how to do it. That's what I know how to do. You said that to me earlier, you're breaking it down. Like I don't know why my brain works this way. My old mentor said, yeah, it's fantastic. But don't be so impressed with yourself. You didn't make this happen. It's just how my brain works. If you're going to have a leader in charge of teaching people how to do stuff, they can't just know what has to happen they have to be able to break it down and then apply it to different people. Or it doesn't work right. Otherwise just do this one thing within the entrepreneurial world right all those institutions out there that don't work.

Leighann Lovely 44:50

And I know mean, for me, I know exactly like I time block like exactly what I do how I do it, but it doesn't mean that somebody else is going to be able to sit in my chair and follow that exact process and be successful at it.

Erin Marcus 45:05

Odds are they can't because their brain works differently. Correct? What's their version of it?

Leighann Lovely 45:10

Right? Well, we are we are coming to time. No figure. I know. And just getting in the talking, I know. All right. All right. So I have a question of the season. And it's, I love this question, because I get a variety of different answers. And obviously, because everybody's in a different situation. But if you could change, or what would you change rather about your job or the practice that people have in your role, if you could?

Erin Marcus 45:44

The thing that I don't like about what I do, are the mood swings. I'm not a highly, I'm a high, I don't know, if you notice I'm very high energy person. But I'm not a highly emotional person. I, the mood swings make me crazy. I don't care if something's hard. I don't expect everything. That's not what I mean, I don't, it's the entrepreneurial roller coaster of this is great. It's all falling apart. Like, I don't like it. It's not that I've learned that I have to be able to handle it. But I find it sucking my energy and knocking me off of my focus. And throwing a wrench in my plans. I don't know I can come up with a bunch more phrases. But that's what I don't like about it is the emotional. And that's really what I screwed up. When I first left corporate and got into the entrepreneurial world, because I knew what to do. I knew what to do. I've grown businesses. I knew how to grow my business. I knew I knew what I knew that I knew I could do what I knew how to do for my clients. What I didn't expect was so much of my success being tied to who I was being not what I was doing and what I was thinking about, not what I was doing.

Leighann Lovely 47:17

Well, and somebody said to me not long ago, had I known what I know, now, I would not have started my own business 100%. So thank God, I didn't know. And that's exactly how they finished that line. Thank God, I didn't know, sign up for this. Right. And as an early as a very new entrepreneur, I do not ask the question. Well, what do I not know? Because I want to continue down this path and figure it out for myself, because I don't want to be scared away from it. And I'm already starting for him. It's too long. I'm already in it.

Erin Marcus 48:00

You're off the cliff, you're you've jumped off the cliff, you are falling down the Cliff. Cliff. I mean, that's physically impossible.

Leighann Lovely 48:07

Where's my parachute?

Erin Marcus 48:09

Yeah, that doesn't work either. That's not how this works. Right.

Leighann Lovely 48:13

But, and that's and that's the beauty of it, though, is that you you can't know what you don't know. And would we do things in life? If we knew all the information? And often the answer is no. Because the end, it's the same way that our brain works is that 10 years from now, will you remember how painful it was in the beginning? Or are you going

Erin Marcus 48:42

And no I laugh about it? I could tell you stories for days, I used to get lost in my car in my neighborhood. In my first business, I would go and have consultations in people's homes. So I would use the GPS to get to their house, because I had to know exactly where it was. But I kind of knew where I was. So I knew how to get home. And so I wouldn't use GPS to get home. And then I'd be driving and then all of a sudden I wouldn't. Which is terrifying. By the way. All of a sudden, I would be like, Wait, where am I? Why am I here? Like I wasn't lost? I knew where I was. But I certainly wasn't where I thought I was going. You stood like just get lost.

Leighann Lovely 49:23

You're so deep in thought that you just you know, yeah. Hey, I'm just letting you know what, there was one day that I was so deep in thought that I went the wrong way. When I was trying to drop my daughter off somewhere and I looked at her and I went we're going to be late because mommy just went to the wrong place. And my daughter now reminds me she's five. My daughter now reminds me Mommy, are you going to the right place?

Erin Marcus 49:50

One of my favorite favorite stories was of a mentor I had at the real estate business and she tells a story of when car phones like when we first I call them car phones, because that's what they were at the time. Yep. Because it hooked to your car. When that first was a thing, and she had it, and her business partner had one, and they were in this very heated conversation, so she was driving home about a client, she was driving home on autopilot. And in this heated conversation, and then she just kind of stopped talking went, Oh, my God. It wasn't, she drove to the wrong house. She drove to the house that she used to share with her ex husband, who is now remarried to another woman, and she pulled into the driveway. She was on such autopilot that she like went back eight years in her life. And she went home, just to not the current home, right? She tells a story of going oh my god, I gotta get out here before.

Leighann Lovely 50:55

Right? Well, Aaron, this has been such an amazing conversation. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Erin Marcus 51:03

The easiest way to do this is just find me through my website, ConquerYourbusiness.com. If you go to conqueryourbusiness.com you'll see my podcast, you'll be able to contact me you'll find me on all the socials. One easy place to go conqueryourbusiness.com

Leighann Lovely 51:18

And that, of course will be in the show notes. But again, Erin, thank you so much for your time.

Erin Marcus 51:22

You are awesome. Thank you. Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 51:24

Contact information –

Website - https://conqueryourbusiness.com/

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Training and development has been a hot topic over the last year as our economy struggles to have enough people to fill the open positions in highly skilled rolls. This weeks guest Pat Riley knows all to well what targeted training can do for organizations or the lack of. Pat is the owner and CEO of New Horizons of Wisconsin a Training and Development company that helps people level up there skills. Join us for a great conversation!

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Patrick Riley 02:40

I'm happy to be here. Thank you, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 02:43

So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Patrick Riley 02:47

Sure. My name is Pat Riley. And I am the CEO of New Horizons of Wisconsin. And we are the state's largest IT and business skills training company. And so what we focus on is helping people upskill themselves to their next level. And so we work both with businesses and helping their people grow, thrive and get certified in technology skills, as well as leadership and development skills. And then a part that of our company that is very near and dear to my heart. We help individuals get into it careers, or business careers. And then our newest division is in the medical career division. And we've been very successful in all of those areas. Because what we're finding in industry today and what they're calling industry 4.0 Is that skills are really the new degrees. And companies are very interested in seeing people with specific skill sets much more than they are a diploma or a degree in a more general area.

Leighann Lovely 04:27

And that's that's awesome. First of all, that's That's amazing. Training Development Company is something that I think is a huge emphasis in today's world. I've seen articles coming out with companies that are shifting their funds to putting a huge emphasis on helping their employees, you know, UPS upskill their different individual departments or even offering it to you know, across the entire company. which is, which is amazing. But you had mentioned a couple of different areas. Medical, which is awesome. But I what I really wanted to know is or what I would like love to talk about is what what are you seeing in today's world as far as the the impact? With justice, what has happened over the last couple of, of years on? Because of the COVID? And because of what is transpired? How was that shift impacted your business?

Patrick Riley 05:37

Yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting ride, right? There's, there's the old Chinese proverb, may you live in interesting times. And we are certainly living in interesting times. And and, you know, there's some statistics that I have for you today that are that are very challenging. You know, in 2021, more than 38 million Americans quit their jobs. I mean, that statistic is staggering. And, I mean, we can have three podcasts just talking about that. Right. But, you know, you know, you can get into the why, and the wherefores, and all the rest of it. But, you know, in, you know, we've got a lot of demographic, things that are happening, we've got the grain of the baby boomers, we've got declining birth rates. We've got a labor shortage in almost every single industry, it is absolutely going through a massive labor shortage right now. And then we've got this increase of millennials and Gen z's in the workplace. And that dynamic is changing what we're seeing in a recent study, over 83% of HR professionals are reporting recruiting problems, right. There's just not enough people 75% of HR professionals reported a shortage of skills in candidates. Right. And you know, it's just amazing.

Leighann Lovely 07:34

And it's wild, too, because obviously, you know, my background coming from the recruiting world, you hear from those hiring managers. Despite those staggering numbers, you hear from them? Yeah, I'd love to interview these individuals, they interview them, they have six out of our seven out of the 10 things that they're looking for. And then they'll come back to me and say, Yeah, they're really great. I love their personality, but I just I don't have time to train them in the other areas. And you go,

Patrick Riley 08:07

Yeah you hear that? A lot. Right. Right. And, and the problem with that thinking is, is it takes away from the realities of what we do on a daily basis. Because so much of what we do. And there's, there's, you know, a few years ago, there was they, they started to have this big argument in HR circles and in leadership circles of IQ versus EQ, right, which was really hard, hard technical skills and knowledge, versus what we call soft skills. I really don't like we do internally, at New Horizons, we don't call them soft skills, we call them power skills. Because that's really what they are. They empower people to be able to work with others in more of a leadership capacity than in a tactical capacity. And I think that becomes very, very important. I got a couple more stats for you. 76% of companies say that business leaders would raise four or five out of five point scale of importance to an organization. However, in that same study, only 45% of those companies would rate themselves as a four or five on a five point scale of how well they're doing, of building business leaders within their organization. So that gap, that 30 point gap is exactly what you're talking about. In terms of companies not investing in their own people, right? To get them upskilled. Right, those are,

Leighann Lovely 10:08

Right. It's the number of individuals. And now I'm speaking of managers, not necessarily leaders. Because there is a huge difference between a manager and a leader. But the number of managers in management roles that have never had management, training, and lack people skills, and leadership skills is staggering. It's in the end, if you really dive into the statistics on this, even managers will say, without, without shame, without question, they will, will say, I have never had management training. I often don't know what I'm doing. And my company has not offered any type of management training to me. And it's as a, as an HR professional, I'm sure as a, as a business owner, you you sit back and go, What the hell are these companies doing?

Patrick Riley 11:20

Yeah, it's very frustrating. I mean, because what we see in our world a lot of times, because what's happened in the last few years is that it is no longer a silo, right? Anywhere. Everything that happens in a business is controlled, or touched, or invested in technology. You know, I like to say to people, you can't buy a hamburger. Today, without technology being directly involved. I mean, when you go to McDonald's, it's technology that is driving the creation of your hamburger. I mean, it's tech that's everywhere in that McDonald's. Not to say that I go to McDonald's too often, but I do like myself a big man. And, and, you know, because all those people are just looking at screens tell him to put the pickles on and all that kind of coffee. All right. So people who started out to be in tech are now finding themselves in leadership positions, or in positions in places like marketing or operations, or leadership positions, positions, they didn't expect to find themselves. And that gap in knowledge is killing organizations, they have to invest in ongoing skill training. We know from from studies that happen in the training and learning and development organ marketplaces. We know that skills have a half life of five years now, technical skills have a half life of only two and a half years, right.

Leighann Lovely 13:16

And that's getting to be constant.

Patrick Riley 13:18

It's got to be a constant part of a company's culture.

Leighann Lovely 13:24

And I feel like, you know, obviously, my listeners know how old I am, I did refer to it all the time. So I don't, you know, I have no shame in that.

Patrick Riley 13:34

I am not gonna ask, well, you know,

Leighann Lovely 13:37

I feel like as the older I've gotten the, the shorter that, you know, that's the shorter it gets every single year with how long those those skills last in the tech world, you know, at one time, it was like you could go to you could go in and get your Microsoft training. And you could, you know, that would that would hold out for, you know, five or six years. Right now. Now, right now, it's like, oh, now they come up, and they're coming up with another update in, you know, a matter of two years time. And it's like, if you don't have the newest, you know, knowledge on it, you all of a sudden they have a new button and you're like, what, what is this what, what just happened? Or you're updating? This just happened to me, and this and I know it's happened to a shit ton of other people out there. Updating zoom, I updated zoom, and all of a sudden, everything went completely wonky. And it took somebody else telling me you have to completely remove it from your system, reload it, or you're just you're going to not you're going to have problems and and I couldn't figure that out on my own. I'm an intelligent person. It finally took somebody saying, here's how you fix this problem. I don't know why. But and it happens to us on a regular daily basis. On just simple Things like you using zoom, which is something that I realized how we're talking today. Right?

Patrick Riley 15:06

Right. So now in abroad and abroad is not to not to interrupt but in a broader sense, chat, GBT has changed the landscape of technology significantly and eight months ago didn't exist, except for a toy with a very small group of users. Today, it's ubiquitous. And you know, I've even used it playing around with job postings to try to make them more effective for us as we recruit. And it's amazing, quite frankly, when you, when you when you'd kind of dip your toe into this, this AI interface, and its ability to create content. And that didn't exist, you know, on my birthday last year, for goodness sakes, right. So it's incredible the speed at which a technology can disrupt everything that we're doing. And so people who sit back and are not either engaged, or lifelong learners are going to be left behind. And the shift that we are seeing, and it's for, it's for a few reasons, first of all, a bachelor degree used to be your ticket in when I was growing up, you had you and again, I'm dating myself as well, you really had kind of three options. As you were graduating high school, you either went to a four year college, and that was your ticket into the middle class and above. You went to a two year college and you are going to get kind of a kind of a job that maybe you can, maybe you could, you know, parlay that into a four year degree somewhere down the line. He went into the workforce and got a menial labor job, or he went into the military. That was it. Right? Those are your paths. That was it, there was no other, there's no other choice. Now you have a plethora of choices. And what we're finding is the cost of a university degree is is becoming prohibitive for people to be able to go into fields that they want to go into. With skills being so important. Forbes just published an article about six weeks ago. And the title of it was skills are the new degrees. And I encourage your listeners to go find that article on forbes.com. And it talked about how companies like Apple, and Google and Dell, and others, we're now no longer requiring college degrees in their hiring process. If you had skills and certifications, which is what we provide to the state to people in the state of Wisconsin. And it's a seismic shift.

Leighann Lovely 18:32

And and this goes along what I think it's about two years ago, maybe about a year and a half ago, I was at a I was at a conference and I listened to the was the CEO of a college speak. And he and he talked about how the enrollment of students was going to be drastically taking a downturn that colleges were going to have to find new creative ways to get students to come to four year colleges. And that the shift was going to be two year colleges because the cost to that was so prohibitive, but this is also a symptom of the fact that we have a huge generation of individuals that went to college graduated around the 2000, the 2005 2006 and they are still in mass debt. And some of them like me, and I've talked about this before have I have a higher payoff amount than what I graduated with, because I graduated in 2008 with my bachelor's degree and subsequently the economy's you know the bottom dropped out. And I took a $20,000 pay cut after 2008 and so many of the parents that now have children are saying wait a Second, we're living in a different world, you don't have to go to a four year college, if your path is XYZ. Now, if you want to be a doctor, if you want to be, you know, a lawyer, if you want to

Patrick Riley 20:11

Be an engineer or something like that, I completely agree with you in my world. And this is a bit embarrassing, I feel, but I have four children. And I went to the University of Iowa, and I love I love the University of Iowa, very, I'm wearing an Iowa shirt right now, in fact, and I live in Wisconsin, of course, and my daughter got into the University of Iowa, and she was excited to potentially go there. And I was thrilled as you can imagine. And she's, she wants to be a teacher, she's going to be a teacher, in fact, and I'm very proud of her for choosing that as a as a service profession. And it would be $204,000. For her to attend the University of Iowa, coming out of the state of Wisconsin, for four years, all in room and board. And in all of that $200,000 And with a with my wife and I having four kids, we simply could not afford that. And I I'm ashamed that I can't send my child to the school of her choosing. And it's just a big 10 school, we're not talking about Harvard, or Yale or some, some preppy you know, private college, this is just a public, big 10 school.

Leighann Lovely 21:54

There's no shame.

Patrick Riley 21:56

I can't I can't afford it. And I'm a CEO. So I look at I look at the average American. And I say to myself, you know, the, the doors to entry now are just ridiculous. Go to another another study, I'll give you another number. Dell Technologies predicted in ninth and 2018, that 85% of jobs in 2030 don't yet exist. And if you think about it, think about all the jobs today that exist, that didn't exist, say seven years ago.

Leighann Lovely 22:48

Right? It's

Patrick Riley 22:50

A ton of them.

Leighann Lovely 22:53

It's because the world is constantly evolving, changing the new fast, so fast, I remember it. And again, I've talked about this before, you remember the time when every when we were talking about automating processes, let's Automate, you know, on the on the manufacturing floor, we're going to have robots. And everybody was like, Oh, my God, we're going to be taking away American jobs. No, we didn't take away any American jobs, what we did was created higher paying jobs for the people who were creating the robots and then maintaining those robots.

Patrick Riley 23:28

We created new jobs that paid more required people to upskill or rescale. And if people weren't willing to do that, then they would be left behind. And that is the reality of it. And I, I feel I feel sorry to be the bearer of those news of that, that news. But that's the reality of it. Right. The other side of it is, is that we require a certain percentage of our population to get into the trades, which is also an area that we have a great deficit of people in. And I would love to see more people getting into the trades, rather than going to you know, nothing against Whitewater. I'm just picking that out of a hat, going to Whitewater and getting a degree in, you know, English, we, you know, they'd be much better off going to a Tech College and becoming an electrician, we make way more money.

Leighann Lovely 24:33

Right. And we have some amazing tech colleges around here. And I think the reason, and I think the reason that people don't get into the trades as as much as they, they should, is because there's this misconception that they will always be making no more than $25 an hour. Well, now that you know, the new 25 You know, it's it's now you know, 30 or 35 Even more, but there was always this misconception that they were always going to be making the bare minimum just to survive. And that's it's not true. There are people out there who are in the trades who are making 100 120 $550,000 a year because they really there are they've mastered their art, they've become the experts in their particular field. And there's, there's been this misconception around that when we had the shift from, you know, the individuals coming back, you know, from war going into the manufacturing, and then all of a sudden, they were like, nope, in order for you to be a great worker, you need to go to college. And for the longest time, it was, the only thing that my my kids going to do is go to a four year college, and four year college, and that was what was pushed for the longest time. And now for the first time, parents are going no, you don't need to go to a four year college. In fact, do not go there. If you're going to go and spend your four years drinking away my money. And then deciding that you don't want to go into whatever field of study it is. And now you're talking about even a further shift of companies saying you don't have to have that degree. In fact, there are there are people who argue that going and getting that degree, sometimes is worthless to them, because it's some of these some and I'm not going to pick on any particular colleges or whatever. And I'm not picking on the Big Ten's, I'm not picking. But there are some colleges out there, that really all it is is memorization, go read this book, come and take this test, and you get an A, that is not teaching skills, that is teaching memorization. And I don't I if I'm gonna hire somebody, I want to know that they are capable of troubleshooting and thinking quick, I want to know that they are are capable of, of, you know, actual, individualized thinking, and the ability to, you know, actually make independent decisions, not critical

Patrick Riley 27:07

Thinking skills, things like that. Those are the types of skills that we we focus on in every one of our programs, we include things like problem solving, critical thinking, people management, emotional intelligent, intelligence, excuse me, service orientation, negotiation techniques, decision making, working in a team, we include all of those skills with every one of our programs, because we feel that that makes every person that goes through a New Horizons program, more well rounded and ready to take on whatever role they have chosen to follow. And we, we feel like if we just teach them the technical skills, we're doing them a disservice. And we give them badges, and for going through that they can take with them. And we give them everything that they need, you know, test prep, practice exams, mentoring, all this all this support for them to be able to go and get industry recognized certifications, which are in my book, that new currency. Because if you can go in to, to an employer and say, Look, I am CompTIA certified in security plus, and CCNA. And, you know, XYZ logistics, we'll just add a fake one. And I can do these types of things. And I have skill sets that align with you culturally, That person is going to get that job, right. And garlis of where they went to school, quite frankly.

Leighann Lovely 29:18

I agree. I absolutely agree. And here's the other thing is that companies that are willing to to look around at their employees and say, this is an awesome individual. I love the sky gal. him he she it. You know, if a company is willing to look around at their employees and say I really want to make sure that I'm building a solid team that doesn't leave by offering them the ability to take courses by offering them the ability to grow and to grow properly. Not just saying, oh here I'll offer Do this promotion and then let them fail is not the way. Because I've seen this again and again, at organizations where they're like, Oh, I feel like she might or he might leave. And then they offer him a promotion. And then they fail, because they didn't give him the tools that they needed in order to, to level up, right. So organizations by offering them those, that ability to take the next class that they need, or the next training or whatever it might be in order to develop those skills is the best way to retain your employees. And I, I, I could see it until I'm blue in the face to some of these organizations. And I feel like it's it falls on deaf ears. Well, it's not in the budget, okay. It's not in the budget. So what happens when that employee leaves and you spend the next $20,000 on trying to bring in the right person is it isn't in the budget.

Patrick Riley 30:59

It's very interesting the dynamics in it. In my experience, it appears that companies either get it or they don't. And it's an IT is cultural, I'll give you a couple of examples that are real, real world. Examples. Just this Wednesday, I drove down to Madison, and I met with a gentleman, I'm not going to name him because I don't I didn't ask his permission. But he owns six different businesses. He's a serial entrepreneur. And we talked about all of his different businesses, and they're there in a variety things. He's got one in the financial sector, he had a couple in the pharmaceutical and medical industries. Very, very interesting. Very creative, very smart, very smart. And when when we got all done kind of laying out, you know, his his strategy is businesses and the strategy, and all of this, and then we started getting down to the brass tacks, which was what he needed me for. And he's And essentially, what he said is we're growing. But I don't want the wrong people. I want people that fit with me. And then I want to train them on what I want them to know. And essentially, what he was saying, which is what I have learned over 25 plus years in business leadership, is that you can you hire for culture, and you train for skills. That's what successful companies do. And unsuccessful companies will hire for a resume, and then try to make that person fit into their culture. And so, you know, he and I talked a lot about how, and he's working on some pilot programs internally to teach them about their culture. And then we're going to work with them on some of the technical skills that they need to learn. And, and that's, that's how we're going to partner together. But you can't try in my estimation, to make somebody fit into your culture, if their heart is not in the right place. And but you can teach them skill sets that they need to be able to be successful in whatever role you need them to play. I will give another example of a client of ours and I hope that they're not going to get mad at me for this. But we do a lot of work with Northwestern Mutual Life, who I happen to be a customer of as well. Partially because I know how they run their business, they invest in their people. They also invest very smart, by the way. They are not there. They're not throwing money around. They hold us very tight to their budgets. But they do invest in their people in a smart way. And they do it on newer technologies that are specific to their industries. And they do it in groups so that they can they have the group buy in, and they continue to move their teams forward. And they do it in a very smart way. Northwestern Mutual is a very smart company. And we're very proud to work with them. But they're a progressive thing. gave the organization and that's part of the reason I'm a customer of theirs is because I know the insides. I know they do their jobs well.

Leighann Lovely 35:10

So I want to go back to the first example that you gave as as hiring for culture and training for skill. And that is extremely, extremely brilliant. And any company that can finally get that, and I wish as, as an HR professional as a as a, somebody with a recruiting background, I wish that more companies would get on board with that. And the number one mistake that especially as companies grow and get larger, is that they for some reason, forget that. Yeah, they say it, oh, here's our culture, and they sell their culture. They sell their culture to the candidate. Oh, this is great. What you know, it's such a positive environment, blah, blah, blah. But they don't ask the individual, what are you looking for? They just assume that this individual wants to come in and will assimilate to their amazing culture, right? The culture that they're selling, which is what whomever is telling them about their culture believes their culture to be?

Patrick Riley 36:25

Yeah, when I'm when I'm hiring somebody, I don't, I will look at their resume. So I can get a feel as to what their background is. And then when I'm interviewing them, I put their resume away. And I don't look at it again.

Leighann Lovely 36:42

And I've gotten to the point in my career, where I hate resumes, I hate them, they yes, they're a great tool to see if this person is in line with the job that I'm that I'm looking at, or, but it's gotten to the point where people look at a resume, and they think they know the individual.

Patrick Riley 36:59

Right I'm trying to look at it as little as possible. And I want to get to know them. I want to know what makes them happy. What makes them unhappy? What what do they want out of life? Where do they want to go? What do they want to do? What are their dreams? What are their aspirations, what drives them crazy? You're all of those kinds of things. That's what I want, I want to get to know them. And what kind of questions they ask, you know, those types of things.

Leighann Lovely 37:35

And if more employees were to focus on that, look at the resume and say, yep, this person has, you know, XYZ background. And here's the thing that I that that's really gotten to me in the, in the last couple of years. Somebody's got 15 years of longevity at one company, 10 years at another company. And then all of the sudden, there's this, this, this during the pandemic they've had, you know, a couple of jobs. And then a company says, oh, yeah, I can see the job jumper and I go, What, wait a second. Yes, during the pandemic, we had a large group of people who all of a sudden had maybe one or two jobs or three jobs in there. The world was tipped upside down, and companies were not quite sure what they were doing. And a lot of personal stuff started happening with, with individuals, mental health issues. We had, you know, family issues, daycare issues, your issues. Yeah, I mean, daycare issues were horrific. Anyways, I digress. I'm going on to a tangent here. The point being is that I love what you what you talked about about hiring for culture, training for skill. And if more companies were to can like think that way, we would, they would find a lot less trouble in hiring. Because right now, we are seeing, obviously, like you mentioned, the largest, the largest struggle that I have ever in my career seen with not enough people, way too many jobs. And yes, are we seeing a lot of layoffs happening? They always happen. We're just living in a world where every single thing that happens in the world is then blasted out onto every social media platform, and everybody knows everybody's business. So it seems like it's extremely horrible. These things happen all the time. And yes, we are in a recession right now. So everybody's feeling the pains a little bit more.

Patrick Riley 39:42

But well, and inflation is killing people. I mean, we're in a we're in a weird cycle right now adjustment, correct? Where I think the Fed took too long to adjust interest rates and then adjusted them too. too fast and too hard. But that's just my macro economic opinion. But, you know, in the layout, the reason I think the layoffs get so much attention is because they're from such an odd place, places that we're not used to ever laid off Apple, you know, doesn't lay off people, right? Google doesn't lay off people, Amazon, Amazon doesn't lay off people. And when they do it, it's a huge deal. And plus, it's a lot of people, you know, they lay off 10,000 people, that's a, it's a big deal, right? What they don't report on is the fact that our unemployment in Wisconsin is it like 3.1%, last week,

Leighann Lovely 40:42

Correct. And that there are massive amount of companies that are still hiring, and

Patrick Riley 40:48

Hiring like crazy, right, trying to find people. And when you start to get into the threes, and twos are unemployment, you're now you're now at cyclical unemployment, which means you're getting down to people who just don't, either don't want to work or are able to work. And, you know, because there's a certain percentage of the population that just isn't, isn't interested in working for whatever reason, you know, could be, it could be mental health, it could be, you know, an addiction could be age could be all sorts of things, medical, but at any rate is becoming very, very difficult for people to find people, people that that have what they need. And so, you know, now we have to improvise a little bit. And companies that are smart, will, will pivot. And we had to pivot during the pandemic. And now we're having to pivot as it relates to skill sets. And, you know, we are here to serve the Wisconsin community, both on an individual basis. And by the way we work with all of the state agencies, we work with all of the federal agencies we work with, with the VA, we're VA approved. You know, we work with WIOA, we work with F set we work with Maximus, we work with all of these government agencies to get funding for individuals who want to get into it as a career so that they can get their training from us funded, potentially, if they qualify. And I can't speak to that because I run the qualification process but but there are there are lots of workforce development places and and lots of government agencies that can help them and get get their educations and skill sets paid for and get into these IT jobs that are paying very, very well. You know, my son is is 24 years old, he's making six figures as a software developer. Up in Appleton, Wisconsin, now six figures in Appleton, Wisconsin goes a long way. Now, he's he's married with two kids, but you know, he's so he's feeling the pain of that. So, you know, he's, he's understanding the cost of being a dad, which is, which is hilarious to me. But you know, he's, he's doing just fine, you know, because he focused his intellect and education on it, skill sets. And he's, he's reaping the rewards of that. So the, the, I think the moral of the story, if I could share with people is, you know, work on developing a wide you know, power skill set of being able to work with people, for people, have a servant's heart, at your core, and then go grab good, solid, technical and whatever that means to you. Whether it's engineering, whether it's science, whether it's it, whether it's teaching, or whatever it may be, but go grab those, those technical skills that you need, and you will make yourself so so valuable to an employer, that they will pay you very, very well and they will give you a job that will be rewarding, because that's what we're looking for in life. We're looking for jobs that reward us. Sure financially is a part of it, but But every study, every study, that's that's been done of employees in the last five years, puts puts the financial reward very low on what employees are looking for. They're really looking for a sense of purpose, a sense of community. Training and upskilling opportunities are critical to them. The opportunity to make a difference, all of those things are what people are really looking for. And if you spend time investing in yourself and your skills and your abilities, both out of power, skill level and technical skill level, you will have those opportunities available to you.

Leighann Lovely 45:47

That is really well sad. That's, I mean, very well, sad. Now we are coming to time, I feel like I could talk to you forever about this, because I'm very passionate about the idea of of well about continuing education for myself, I believe that if you're not learning something new every day, you're you're missing out on the opportunity to be great. And but like I said, we're coming to time. So the question of the season what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role, if you could?

Patrick Riley 46:25

Well, as a CEO, I think I could probably speak for every CEO, I'd love to have a crystal ball, and know what the economy is going to do next. Because we're in such such interesting, I've come back to my first day. But we're in such interesting times with inflation and spending. And, you know, a lot of times with organizations training gets cut. That's just the reality of it. And so it's up to us to prove the value of it. And that becomes a little bit more difficult in times of recession, as you said, that we're in. So, you know, the uneasiness of how we're moving forward is something that I would love to change. But to be honest with you, I, I love what I do. I change people's lives through my organization. And the one thing I'll share with you is that in our company, we don't have a mission statement. In our company, we have a passion statement. And our passion statement is that we believe that learning new skills is the fastest way to change a life. And that's what my organization does every day. Traders that do that we have account executives that helped people do that we have people in our career development division that do that. We have people in operations that help people do that. But that's what everybody in my organization is, is focused on. And I am very, very proud to be able to lead an organization that does and that's something that's very near and dear to me. So there's certainly there are days that I would love to be doing something else. You know, there's days like these that you you wish that you were, you know, just digging ditches for a living or something like that, where you can see the fruits of your labor, but boy, I pretty, pretty proud of my team and proud to be able to lead them.

Leighann Lovely 48:41

Awesome. If somebody wanted to get a hold of you. How would they go about doing that?

Patrick Riley 48:47

Well, I am happy to have people email me. They can email me at Pat dot Riley R I L E Y and yes, it is just like the basketball coach at New Horizons wi.com Or they can they can chat with us on our web page. Or, you know what the heck give me a call my number is 920-205-3589 and I'd be happy to chat with you personally, one on one about what we do and how we do it. And you know, thank you Leanne for having me today and be happy to come back anytime and chat with you about this or or anything else that applies pleasure talking with you today.

Leighann Lovely 49:51

Pat, thank you so much for joining me this has been an amazing conversation and you know what your organization does and and how you offer, you know, the ability for individuals to to upskill and and really be able to step into new careers with some of the programs that you offer is amazing. So, if you are looking to get in touch with Pat Riley and his team, you can also check him out on his website, which will be on the show notes. So check that out. Again, Pat, thank you.

Patrick Riley 50:21

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah, have a wonderful day.

Leighann Lovely 50:25

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact –

E-mail – pat.riley@newhorizonswi.com

Website – https://www.newhorizons.com/wisconsin/home

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/company/new-horizons-it-training-of-wisconsin/mycompany/

Phone number – 920-205-3589

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, companies, skills, jobs, college, individuals, training, wisconsin, years, talked, organization, skill sets, world, business, employees, degree, hiring, pat, technical skills, upskill

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Robin Elario to the leap into owning her own business in 2017 and since then has learned the roller coaster of business ownership. From the hiring, firing, training, and retention she has learned what it takes to make it work, but most importantly to find a work-life balance for herself while still maintaining a great culture for her remote employees. It is clear that she is doing something right so I would tune into this great conversation

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

I have a great conversation with a business owner today Robin Elario. Robin has a passion for helping people her decision to purchase an existing Assisting Hands, homecare business came out of her desire to make a difference and help people in a way she wished was available for loved ones in years past. And now as a business owner, I have the opportunity to talk with her about the struggles and triumphs she has experienced.

Robin Elario 01:40

So I have been in business five and a half years, I bought my business existing in 2017 and June did not have experience in this field, we have an in home care, non-medical agency where we help elderly folks disabled folks in their home with activities of daily living to help them stay independent. And the goal is to remain at home and happy where they should be. I had family members way back when that really would have benefited from these services. So when I saw this opportunity presented to me, I kind of jumped on it. I love helping people, it's kind of my passion. And then to think that I could have helped family members back in the day, and couldn't, and saw this as an opportunity to be able to kind of pass it on to other folks and help other people navigate through some hard times. And five and a half years later, here I am.

Leighann Lovely 02:42

That's awesome. And I I didn't even get a chance to say thank you so much, Robin for joining me today. And that's it's it's an amazing, you know, it's amazing when you can kind of in retrospect, look back to a passion of you know what you were missing when you needed it, and then to be able to turn around and now be able to provide the service that was lacking for you to somebody else and know that you're that you're providing that you're providing a form of comfort is not a form of it. I mean, it is a comfort, right?

Robin Elario 03:22

Yeah, yeah, it is necessary. Obviously, the last thing people want to do is put a loved one in a nursing home or assisted living facility. So as long as they can safely remain at home with our services, it's kind of a win win.

Leighann Lovely 03:38

So tell me a little bit, you know, a little bit more about the services that you provide? I mean, is it? Yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit about it.

Robin Elario 03:49

So it's, it's all non medical. So things that fall under non medical services include anything from health, helping someone get out of bed in the morning, getting them dressed, we have folks that have very little care needed, maybe they just need help with laundry or some light housekeeping that kind of keep them being able to stay at home. We have other people who need full on care and we have a mechanical lift that gets them out of bed and puts them into a wheelchair and we have to Bed Bath them and things like that. So we have all levels of care that we provide. It just depends on the level of need of the client. And so but we do all kinds of incontinence care, showering any kind of personal care, we do that helping them you know, do their hair, get them dressed, make meals for them. We do medication reminders, we can both medication, we can administer meds, but we can remind them and kind of keep them on track with that. We can go grocery shopping for them. Like I said laundry and light and healthy bein companionship is kind of goes with everybody.

Leighann Lovely 04:55

Right. And I think that all of us, you know as I get older, I'm not that old, yet. But as I get older, I think to myself, you know, I want to stay in my own home, right? The goal is to just stay in my home with my husband. For as long as I can, and I remember experiencing this with my grandmother, she The hardest thing for the family was to eventually know that she couldn't stay in her home anymore. And that's, and that's part of what you are able to provide is that that individuals get to stay, have the freedom of being in their own home, but have somebody who comes in and provides them with the companionship with the ability to stay in their home while being able to do some of those those day to day activities? Right.

Robin Elario 05:49

Right. Yeah. That's the goal. Well, great.

Leighann Lovely 05:53

So ownership. That, you know, for, for us who aren't, haven't taken that leap, we think, oh, yeah, I could buy a business. Right? I could, I could do that. But often, you know, we think of ownership is we're gonna go and do this thing. But it's so much more. And a lot of the owners a lot of the a lot of the Yeah, a lot of the owners that I talked to the first thing that they'll say is, wow, I didn't know what I didn't know. Oh, yeah. So first

Robin Elario 06:37

Yeah, there's a lot of moving parts.

Leighann Lovely 06:40

So tell me a little bit about, you know, how's it going? I mean, you're five years in, which means that what is it five years? Yeah. Wow. So you're, you're of the of the percentile. That's, that's gonna make it at this point, according to statistics, right?

Robin Elario 06:59

Yeah. Yeah. Five years is kind of that Mark, I'll be six years in June. I feel pretty good about. I think I can make it out. Right, right.

Leighann Lovely 07:07

I mean, we it's what I can't even remember the statistics on that. But it's like 10% of businesses. Don't make it to the five, or I'm sorry, 10% of businesses make it. Which means that 90% of businesses don't make it to that five, that five year mark. Which is insane. I mean, you think about it. Yeah. But yeah, it's because you don't know what you don't know.

Robin Elario 07:35

I think if you knew if you knew more, you probably wouldn't do it is looking back if I had known what I know, now, maybe what I have not taken the leap, probably a high likelihood that I might have, you know, not, but sometimes that's what you need to get out. Just dive in. Right? Right.

Leighann Lovely 07:53

I think you're right, if you would have known all of the the triumphs and the trials that you would have gone through that you are going through, I'm sure still on a daily basis. But now you've had five years to iron out some of the bugs. So tell me a little bit, you know, this this season has been dedicated a lot to what does it take to hire, train, retain. So what is right now the biggest hurdle that you're struggling and I know that you and I talked a lot about, you know, that hiring piece for us right

Robin Elario 08:32

Now, honestly, it's not really the retention, it's more than hiring and getting them in the door. You know, it seems as though we have a lot of activity, but just getting them to actually show up for interviews, and you know, or we'll interview them and everything sounds great. We get them all on, you know, all set up for onboarding and they don't show up. Or we go through all that we get them on boarded, do all that and then they don't show up for their first shift or whatever the case may be. So that's our biggest struggle right now. I feel like we have a good handle on the retention part of it. Because we really do a lot for our caregivers. You know, it's a hard job. It is not a high paying job. There's a lot expected of them. You can get caregiver burnout really easily. So we try to do little things to make them feel appreciated, valued, those kinds of things. So I feel like we have a relatively good handle on once we get them in and they're viable, and they actually start working aside from, you know, hit issues or transportation issue. That seems to be a big part of it. But in general people seem to really like working with us when we do get them to that point. So right now it is actually the hiring the actual finding people, getting them in the door and getting them on boarded and ready to go. There seems to me, we lose a lot of hours. Right now, our business is measured in hours per week care hours, we've been losing quite a few care hours a week, because of that piece of it, we just need more, we just mean so many more people to be able to keep up with our demand.

Leighann Lovely 10:18

And that's not inconsistent with almost everybody that I taught. We need more people.

Robin Elario 10:22

Yeah, which makes me feel a little better. Right? thing? Um, that's not unique to me. But right. Now.

Leighann Lovely 10:31

So why do you think that the people in you, I mean, you mentioned a couple of things, you treat them? Great. You, you? So what are some of the things that you're that you do? And don't give away all your secrets? Right?

Robin Elario 10:48

No. So we have, you know, we were very communicative. So which we expect the same in return. We are flexible, you know, working with it, we understand things come up. And we understand people have stuff. So we try our best to work within their, within what they what they're able to do. But I think we do a good job recognizing we have, you know, caregiver of the month that we do. So we pick somebody every month. And if they're chosen, they get, you know, of course, the recognition, you know, gratulations, the solid stone, they get their name up on a little board, they get an avoider, branded scrub top, they get a gift card from Walmart. So it gives them something to strive for. We are going to be starting doing like quarterly, caregiver dropping days where we'll pick a day and each quarter we'll have goodies and coffee and use and you know, kind of, they can just sort of stop in during the day, and we'll have a little goodie bag for them. So, you know, I think we just we tried to build that culture were a team and that we do value them. So that seems to go a long way. And of course, everybody loves little treats and incentives like that. So,

Leighann Lovely 12:09

Absolutely. So going back to the you know, the hiring, getting people to show up. Are you offering any type of, you know, incentives to, Hey, show up and have cookies, I don't know who show up to the interview and? Or how are you going about reaching out to individuals? You know, how? And I guess because, yeah, because being in the recruiting industry, obviously everybody comes to me and says, how do we how do we combat that? How do we get them to show up to the interviewer? How do we? And I never have that solid answer of like, oh, this is what you need to do. Because everybody's experiencing that same problem. Yeah, so it's always that question of what are you doing to get this person to show up that day? Or why are they saying that they'll accept the job? And then they don't show up on that day? What is it that they've got five other job offers? And they just decided, or they just decided, You know what, I'm not gonna go to work today. And then they're stunned that they don't have a job.

Robin Elario 13:24

Yeah, and I think it's a little bit of all of that, because we're, you know, we're working with human beings. And so human nature and human psychology kind of goes to, you can't read everybody's mind as much as we rack our brains in our office on a daily basis, trying to like get inside everybody's head why they do this, why they do that. But maybe doing some more incentives to get them in the door is probably a good idea. We just haven't fine tune that, I guess, and haven't really come up with anything viable. Sometimes we wonder if people if we're getting them, we're grabbing them on Indeed, or rear plug and we have that interview. And then we set up, we do all the stuff and then we set them up for the onboarding. If they're using that as a means for their unemployment requirements. I don't know I sometimes I sometimes I think that's part of it. Because I know unemployment does not follow up with me. They're not saying hey, did someone so apply for job I've never once had unemployment call. So likely is they could be, you know, doing that. I don't know. So, you know, maybe something to entice them to actually come to the interviewer, which worries me a little because if I have to bribe them to come for a job interview, how are they going to be as an employee that does concern me, right. But, you know, sometimes you feel like you'll do anything, though, to get at least people in the door. So that might be I'm kind of old school. I feel like you're expected to do this. You just do it. And that's an Yeah, right.

Leighann Lovely 14:57

And there's a lot of us out there who will Hey, if I commit to something, I'm going to I'm going to follow through on that. But that's the way that I was. That's the way that I was raised. That's the way that I, you know, that's the way that my brain works. There's an entire population of people out there that and it's, it's a symptom of the economy that that we're living in. Yeah, it's a symptom of, of a lot of things. It's a symptom of the younger generation, and that the way that they were raised, it's the way that so you're right, you can't pinpoint it being one thing, I was raised by a very, you know, strict, I don't want to say, strict, but you know, a father who

Robin Elario 15:45

had values, correct.

Leighann Lovely 15:48

Those were their values. But the, the, hey, if you commit, you follow through, if you say you're going to be somewhere on time, you show up on time, if you agree to do something, you know, that's, that's your, it's like signing a contract, and you don't break contracts. And sometimes

Robin Elario 16:08

I feel like, boy, I'm really getting old, because I find myself well, back in the day I would never have dreamt of and like Robin, you know, now you're really sound like an old person. Because but I think I think that is part of it, though. It's just my, I never would have dreamed of calling him to work unless I was on my deathbed. It just wouldn't be something I would have to figure it out. Right? That mentality is not necessarily there anymore. And a lot of the people we have are younger, because that's the age of the people doing the job that we are, you know, requiring them to do, which is fine. But yeah, so yeah, so you know, that, I'm glad you kind of mentioned that entice them to kind of come to the interview, maybe some little you know, even if we just say, Hey, we're gonna we'll have snacks and drinks. And we do we do have, we have a refrigerator stocked with drinks and a basket of snacks and a basket of toys that they can grab one for their kid, you know, if they, some of them have to bring their kid with them to the on on onboarding. Okay, you know? Right. They said upfront, you know, so yeah, and,

Leighann Lovely 17:11

and it's, I've worked in the staffing industry, for him, having people show up for onboarding or with their child is not, you know, we, I think to myself, well, what are you doing, but if they're not making money, paying for child care, is not an easy thing to do. Or even finding somebody in the middle of the day for two hours is just not feasible for them.

Robin Elario 17:38

There are so I don't have an issue with that, therefore, the basket of toys, right, as I record all that, that's about you know, that's some people's reality. And that's fine, right.

Leighann Lovely 17:48

But I used to have a drawer with a bunch of markers in it. When I was in when I was working in the light industry, industrial. And I'd be like, Okay, get the thing of markers, and a piece of paper, and they can sit in and color. Because for an hour, I need your attention and not the attention of the child's you know. Yeah. And again, it's it's a symptom of one, you know, I never used to call in sick, I never used to call in sick. Think about how much that is, is changing. We're all of the sudden your employer, you get to work. And they're like, Wait, well, wait, you're coughing? You're sneezing? Exactly. And all of a sudden, like, you need to go home

Robin Elario 18:32

In my line. Yeah, my line of work, too. We got to be super careful. Like I don't want if somebody truly is sick, I don't want them at work. I don't want my office girls at work if they're sick. And I certainly don't want a caregiver because everybody, all of my clients, even if they're not elderly, they're compromised in some way. They're not healthy people. So however, there's that fine line of you know, so we require a doctor's notes, you know, you go you told me you went to the doctor, that that's fine. So now you'd have till the next morning to get us that note before you may return to work. Or it's considered unexcused, you know, absence or whatever. But we are trying to crack down a little bit on that because as much as we want to work with people, you got to draw that line, you got to set that expectation that, you know, we understand things happen, but here's the guideline that we need to go by. And that's, you know, that's not easy sometimes because you need people go to work, but

Leighann Lovely 19:31

Right. And you want to set the expectation that I don't want you to come to work sick, but unless you're setting the expectation of hey, I have a little sniffle. And it's just there's a fine line between Are you lying to me so that you don't have to work? Are you over?

Robin Elario 19:55

Are you because we've had that too, and we've had actually people to tell us that they're hungover and I got to work. So Mike Okay, well, we so honest.

Leighann Lovely 20:05

Yeah, I mean, I suppose I'd rather have honesty than somebody that flat out lying to me but there's a slap on the wrist, don't do it again, get your get your life together. And every time I've ever been hungover, I've showed up to work. And then I've just played the, I'm an idiot, right? I'm an idiot, I'm not gonna do that again. And now I'm, you know, in my 40s. And I have a child, I don't typically do that.

Robin Elario 20:33

No, I'm not hungover these days anymore. It takes me four days to recover. Yeah, not a good thing. Right?

Leighann Lovely 20:41

In my 20s. It took me about, you know, four hours to recover. And then I was ready to do it again, for God's sake, oh, my God. Okay. Tangent. Now, you manage, you know, obviously a group of people who are not coming to the office every day, they're going elsewhere, they're, they're, you know, taking care of other people. So, you know, I've asked this question of a ton of individuals of, you know, the world is going remote, but you've always basically been managing before COVID, before all of this a group of individuals who essentially are remote, because while you're a home healthcare.

Robin Elario 21:18

We don't have eyes on him.

Leighann Lovely 21:19

Right. So how do you and you talked a little bit about some of the things that you do for your staff in order to keep that morale up? But how do you I mean, there's got to be a huge amount of trust.

Robin Elario 21:31

Yeah, um, so we, most of our clients are state clients. So I get them to the state, and I get reimbursed the state and I pay the employees as w two employees. But with that comes a lot of compliance. So in the world of private duty agencies, there's not that compliance piece of it, we're not regulated at all by the state or what we do. Crazy enough. That's how it is. But when you're when you're when you're dealing with the states.

Leighann Lovely 22:04

So wait, before you go on. Sorry. You're not regulated,

Robin Elario 22:08

Licensed? We don't have to be licensed. For non medical,

Leighann Lovely 22:13

okay, okay. Okay. All right.

Robin Elario 22:15

Well, as an Illinois, they have very strict compliance and licensing guidelines, we don't have that.

Leighann Lovely 22:23

Even us, even non medical has to be yes. Oh, wow. Okay,

Robin Elario 22:27

Okay, assisting hands down in, like Illinois, they have a pretty stringent process, they have to go through to get credentialed and all that kind of stuff. Okay. So, but because I work with state clients, I am heavily regulated and have to follow certain compliance rules, which is kind of good, because that kind of forces you to do more in the way of checking on people. So I have a gal who works in my office, she's a field supervisor. And her job, her main job is to be out in the field, visiting, when caregivers are on shift with a client, and kind of goes and checks on to make sure they're in uniform, make sure the client is happy doing things that they're supposed to be doing, making sure the caregiver is in fact there, because we've had that situation before. Um, and just that kind of stuff, because that's how we kind of keep eyes on everybody. So every 30 days, they get a unannounced kind of visit. So that's how we sort of do that, you know, and then once you go with you brings them a little goodie bag and has like granola bars and hand sanitizer, and just, you know, thanks for doing such a great job. But really, it is to make sure that they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah, and we also have a nurse that's like, a contracted I actually see as a W two employee too, but she's kind of per diem for certain clients need that extra level of kind of checking on. So I have a nurse as well, that goes into another set of clients. And that's mandated by the state. So interesting. Yeah. So that's kind of how we keep that in check. And it's worked out pretty good. But there have been times where like, oh, boy, we need to figure out this situation, because it's not a good situation. And then, you know, oftentimes, everything's gone great. And everyone's happy. So

Leighann Lovely 24:17

Excellent. So you have somebody who's not only checking to make sure that you know, they're talking to the client, making sure that the client is happy, but you're they're also checking the employee making sure that the employees they're where they need to be and doing what they need to be in. And yeah, do you have times where the employees all come together at a specific location to

Robin Elario 24:39

Not really, we had a we had a holiday party. So we had a two day like open house and so they could come one of two days to get we have lunch brought in we had all kinds of treats and had you know, goodie bags and stuff to give them for coming in. That was really that's really the only time there's really no their opportunity for them to all kind of get together. That's just not the nature of this kind of business. So,

Leighann Lovely 25:07

and how many caregivers do you have in total?

Robin Elario 25:10

Um, last check? 52? I think it was 82. Yeah. And they're not all full time most a part time. We do have some we have some that are family members taking care of their family through the state. So you know, that's a whole different animal. But so yeah, including those people's like, 52. And then I got three gals in the office full time.

Leighann Lovely 25:34

And you have just one person who goes and does the rounds of checking on all 52.

Robin Elario 25:40

Yeah, so I have 45 clients. And so she she does it through the course of a month. So she every client gets, and of course, the nurse does the other sets of clients that need that nurse visit as required by the state. So the other gals that that field supervisor does the other clients. So it's not exactly. You know, she's not doing 45 clients. So wow, I'm talking to people out in the field. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 26:12

Wow, how do you, as the owner, keep all of the parts moving in the right direction. I mean, you said you have three office people.

Robin Elario 26:25

So I have an admitted an administrator who is kind of, I hired her to kind of take off a lot of my wool, so I could kind of step away a little bit. So she kind of runs the Daily Show. She's amazing. So between herself, and me, that's what kind of keeps the, the parts moving. And then the other gal who's out in the field, she also does the onboarding in the office and the training in the office because they have to have skills, assessments done per the state. And you know, they have their orientation and training and stuff like that. So she does handle that. And then I have another full time person that does kind of recruiting and then does the interviewing and does. He kind of backs up the field supervisors. She's out of the office, she answers phones and stuff like that. But yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot, it's, I was hoping to be able to step away a little bit hiring this, you know, full time administrator, but what it's done is it's, it's giving me more time to actually do other things that like, oh, well, I guess I'm not stepping away as much as I would. But it's fine. I love working so and I can be flexible with my time. So I can, you know, do stuff during the day if I need to, because I You're never off, really. So it just allows you to be more flexible with your time.

Leighann Lovely 27:49

So the advice to other people that's possibly looking at running their own business is you'll you'll never actually be off of work.

Robin Elario 27:58

It's hard. Yeah, I mean, but you have to make a you have to make an effort. The first couple of years, it was really challenging. It just, it was a show. It was Yeah. But you have to learn and you have to hire people, you have to be willing to spend the money to hire and that's where that's the point I'm, I've gotten too over in 2020, or 2022. Was that was my goal for 2022 is, you know, now I'm getting the revenue. And now I'm doing all these things and stuff. And now I need people because I can't grow if I don't have people to do all these things. Because myself and one other person was not going to cut it just not possible. So I'm gonna like,

Leighann Lovely 28:42

so in 20, before 2022 You it was just you and one other office person.

Robin Elario 28:48

Yeah, And, so during COVID It was interesting, though, because at that time, the majority of my clients or stay clients still but whose families took care of them. So that wasn't call offs, there wasn't people, you know, couldn't make it to work they just did, because they were taking care of her family. So it was a little bit of a different it was actually nice during COVID Because it was a little less stressful, I think with trying to and I didn't overly try to build too much because I didn't, it was really difficult with the protocols. And, you know, I was on four webinars a day trying to keep up with what's going on and the standards and you know, just all the stuff. So it was an interesting time. Luckily, we were in a place where it didn't cause too much in the way of stopping like operations. But after in 2021 it became very evident that, you know, I keep getting all these clients and I just can't if I want to keep taking clients and I want to grow I need to I need to get some help. So that was my goal for 2022

Leighann Lovely 29:59

Oh, Awesome, awesome. Yeah. And that was you kind of touched on the next question I had for you, which was, you know, how did the the pandemic affect you? And your business? It sounds like you were kind of in, in a waiting pattern, but you had business because a lot of the family members were continuing to take care of their own family members, and how does that work? They they work under you, and they get paid by the state shoot, okay.

Robin Elario 30:30

Yep. So I get reimbursed from the state. And then I hired them as a W two employee, so they have all the same qualifications that, you know, we're all the same training and all that kind of stuff, the same supervision that everybody else gets, they're still required, they're still they still need to act like an employee, okay. You know, because I'm paying them a paycheck, and but they'll they get the benefits of being an employee, too. Like, if everyone gets a bonus at Christmas, I give them all a bonus as well, because why not? There's working hard and, and most of them are like, Oh, my God never would have expected that. But yeah, why not? So but yeah, it was an interesting time. And I, I feel like if I was all private duty are all having to staff all those clients, it would have been extremely stressful and anxiety ridden. Because just the fear I had of that small group of clients that I had, that I still had to send outside people into their home was overwhelming for me. I just was worried all the time. Like, are they telling me they don't have the symptoms, and I wasn't testing and I never mandated a vaccine, because I just don't believe that's what I and I didn't need to do that. You know, and there was like, they would clock in on their phone. And there were questions that came up COVID related, do you have this, this, this and this? And, you know, if they answered yes to any of them, we'd have to question as to what what's going on, and you know, then you can't go to work. And it was, it was a rough time, I feel I feel for the people that had 50 employees that they had to worry about, because I didn't worry about the family members, their living there. So if they all have COVID, together, there's not a lot I can do about that. Right? You know, so that very small majority, we had some clients that didn't want any care, and we would go get their groceries and leave that at the staff or just like quickly put it inside their door. And that was all they wanted. And, you know, it was challenging, because people were fearful. But we did it. You know, we made it through but

Leighann Lovely 32:31

so some of the family members that are caregivers actually live in the same home.

Robin Elario 32:35

Oftentimes, oftentimes interesting. Wife, yeah, or a daughter, we have a lot who's you know, child, daughter, son will care for them. And they don't live in the home. But you know, they're there every day. And they have to okay, you know? Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 32:51

And then, and I'm wildly interested by this, because what happened if one of your clients got COVID, but needed care, needed help using the bathroom needed?

Robin Elario 33:03

I mean, yeah, yeah. So it happened a couple of times where we had a client that a COVID Luckily, they had a family member that was able to help them. It it's never ideal, because obviously the family member is trying to work and do that. That's why they have us in there because they don't have you know, her but there was one that we had that had ended up having COVID and the caregiver was fine. She's like, you know what, he has a math spot. I have a mask on, I got my gloves on, I'll wash my hands, I'll double mask, you know, whatever I have to do. She had the N 95 Whatever. She's like, I'm fine. You know, I'm okay, you know, but it was kind of a case by case we really had to take each every day we had no idea what's gonna happen. It was that crazy.

Leighann Lovely 33:56

Like, you know, it's we all we've all heard the stories of, you know, what people who are working in hospitals are still you go into a hospital. I think they're all still wearing masks. And I tell you that as soon as the mask mandates went away, I was ripping that thing off my face going never again because ever again. Yeah, I just I was one of the ones that every time I wore a mask for any, you know, any longer than 1015 minutes, I would get an instant headache. I even talked to my doctor about it. I'm like, I don't understand and, and I have I have chronic migraines that I take my medicine for everything else. And so I just, I mean, I couldn't stand wearing them out. So when that went away, and again, it was directly related to the fact that I got headaches. You know, this is my political view in any way. So as soon as the masks went away, I was like, Oh, thank God, but I would you know, my mother was in the service in the service industry. She had a perma mask on, just like the people who worked or work in hospitals work in the frontlines that wore them for 1012 hours a down, that were breaking out and had, you know, just these horrible things on their face? Yeah, the human, no, the humans are not meant to have something across their face 24 hours or 12 hours a day. It's just not. It's not meant to be like that. And so I feel horrible for, you know, those individuals, but it's eye opening, to realize, you know, talking to somebody like you who's, you know, obviously, in essential business, you're giving, you're providing a service that many individuals, they need, somebody who's not able to take a shower or to properly clean themselves or to get their own food, or whatever the case may be. It's an essential service and people like me, who's not an essential service, necessarily. I did, I was able to work the entire time. But I was working from home, the security of my home, I barely ever left it other to go to the grocery store, or to make a trip to Menards because I had a house project I was working on like the rest of the world. You forget very quickly, the horrors of having to wear those masks for that. Yeah. And then to have somebody you know, have the people who went, yep, I know. I'm going to be around individuals with COVID I work in a hospital. Yeah, I know. I'm gonna go into somebody's home who has COVID and have them be okay with that. During a time period when everybody was terrified. Yeah, you know?

Robin Elario 36:53

Not a good time. No,

Leighann Lovely 36:54

No, and now people now people are like, COVID What do you mean? COVID It's not that scary, depending on obviously, what you experienced. There are people who lost their loved ones and you know, obviously everybody experienced it differently, but I was one of the lucky ones. I didn't lose anybody close to me. Everybody who I never got COVID But everybody in my family did I just for some reason was one of the lucky ones that never experienced it. That's good. But it's it is it's bizarre to think back and and remember and I'm hoping that my daughter will not but remember the time when everywhere we went we wore a mask and the people on the frontline were wearing them is still wearing them all the time.

Robin Elario 37:40

Yeah, my girls still wear though that's still a requirement of mine is to you have to be masked up gloves and a mask. And they have to obviously know the proper hand washing protocol and all that. So but right yeah.

Leighann Lovely 37:53

Well, when you're in close contact with somebody, especially when they're immune, you know, when they have a you know, what immunocompromised situation and like you said, a lot of your individuals, maybe it's still a very important thing. Yeah, not to mention that the world right now the entire world right now is pretty much sick. Because we were all cooped up for two years. And now we're all sharing our germs with each other fun times, right? Yeah. Yeah. At least my daughter is sick every pretty much every other week. Yeah. And then she brings it home to mommy and daddy, which is so nice.

Robin Elario 38:34

Oh, nice. I don't miss those.

Leighann Lovely 38:36

No, no, no, I know. It's it's so much fun. Yeah. The I have a babysitter today. And she is a personal note side note. Sorry, tangent. She does. She's got a fear of runny noses, and putting it nicely. So she came down to my office here at my home and she goes, you're gonna have to help me with this one. I'm like, Oh, there she goes, you just need to wipe her nose. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Anyways. So we are, we're getting close to time. And I would like to ask you the question of the season, which I think is going to be fun because you are now you know, obviously five years in your business owner, you run a unique business. And that's why I was excited to talk to you today because it's different than you know, any other company that I've spoken with thus far. But if someone or I'm sorry, if if you could change anything about your job or the practice that people have in your role? What would that be?

Robin Elario 39:49

Um, the job itself or how I handle the job,

Leighann Lovely 39:53

like really anything I mean, if

Robin Elario 39:58

They gotta be better at letting go a little bit More of delegating or fearful that something's not going to get done the way like, I think it should get done. Nobody has anything to lose, except you as an owner. So is your employees, they're great. And I have to say, my, especially my main office gal, she takes her job very, very seriously. And I 100% appreciate that. But no one loves your business like you do. Nobody feels the pain of the business like you do. And I have to do better with realizing it's okay to hand things off or to trust. And I'm getting better with that, because the person I have in that role has demonstrated that she can handle things. So that's, that's been kind of a newer thing for me, but and then just be able to take that take that time to say, Okay, I am not because I have, admittedly, the app we happen to use for our business phone is RingCentral. And so we're all connected on RingCentral. And then when caregivers text or call comes through this app, so it's not going to your personal phone so we can kind of all see and stay connected with what's going on and read all the texts and all that I'm getting, I've got to get better with not looking all the time, like even maybe logging out of the app every so hard for me. But because I don't want something to be missed. That is critical. Although I don't say anything, I let them handle it. I am getting better with that. But I think that'd be the one thing I'd if I could change would be just trying to, you know, things will be okay. But it's just that fear always that as an owner that at the end of the day, all these people can leave and never come back again. And then you're still in the seat. Handling every Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 42:06

So trust and delegation.

Robin Elario 42:09

Mm hmm. Yeah. Trust but verify. Yeah, to? Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 42:15

Well, we all have to trust but verify it. I mean, that's something that we will that we should be doing our whole lives. But I can only imagine. And this again, I think that it is not unique to know how to you know, I've heard that from multiple people. And you're right, you it is your baby, it will always be your baby, it will always be you're always going to love it more than anybody else.

Robin Elario 42:51

It's your or hate it more than anybody else.

Leighann Lovely 42:55

Or hate it.

Robin Elario 42:56

So love and hate. Yes. Oh, it's like it's like so close together the parallel? Yes. Yeah. So absolutely. Many days, I wanted to turn off the light and just never come back again. Because like, Can I do that? Can I really do that? Let me think.

Leighann Lovely 43:12

And I, you know, when you as you were explaining that, to me, another owner that I had a recent conversation with, his goal was to be able to step away, and not have to think about his business and have the trust in all of the employees that are running it to be able to actually step away and know that everything is running. Then that was his goal for this year. And I believe that I've actually seen him now step up completely away, nine on multiple times, and be like, Yep, I'm not there. Don't call me call this person. He's now running the business and I was like, wow, you're you're doing the thing that you promised yourself you could do,

Robin Elario 43:54

Which has to meet that's that means you're successful. A business owner should not be working 80 hours a week. That's not what you that to me unless you absolutely want to and you don't have anything else you know, going on in your life. But that should not be the goal, the goal should be that and that's what I'm trying to work toward. And I've been able to transition to that somewhat. I just like working too much so that like Oh, am I going to the office? What am I going to do? I'm gonna clean my house I'm gonna go to the gym. You know, I mean, I feel kind of almost like this. Like owners guilt sometimes. And I have to have a conversation with myself Robin, you're the owner. You can go to the gym if you really want to, so that you're okay, right, but that's me. That's the goal too is to be able to not maybe not 100% Step away, but to get to that point where Yep, calm the gals, and they'll take care of you. So yeah, I am.

Leighann Lovely 44:48

I am a workaholic. And I've I've come to terms with that. Not so that I can boast about it, but so that I can recover.

Robin Elario 44:59

Get better from it. Yes, it is a is a sickness, it aims to balance things better. But yeah,

Leighann Lovely 45:06

There are times where I'm sitting, I'm supposed to be watching a movie with my family. And all I can think is, I really got to find a reason to get away from this situation to go and send an email. And then I go, I'm a horrible person, why am I trying to run away from my family to go and work like that? This is an issue like I need. I need therapy.

Robin Elario 45:32

I need help. So it's good. You can recognize it. That's the first step to recovery they say so being able to recognize your your illness.

Leighann Lovely 45:41

Yes, I. So I'm working on that. I am allotting time where I'm not allowed to check my email. I'm not allowed to open up LinkedIn, I'm not allowed to do not allowed to do any of that I have to just focus on Yeah, family time, which is wildly important, or me time or whatever, for whomever is listening to this, it is vitally important to unplug completely.

Robin Elario 46:09

So now, yeah, echo that 100%? Yep.

Leighann Lovely 46:14

Yep. Especially as a business owner, because if you burn yourself out in that first year of ownership for the first two years, or for the first three years, you're gonna fail.

Robin Elario 46:23

Yeah, and it almost happened. Like I said, there were many days that I just thought, you know, I can't do this, I just can't, and I just, I'm not gonna go in, I'm just not gonna go in ever again. And then you reason with yourself and do that, obviously, however, the first year and a half, it affected me physically, emotionally, my relationships, even my son's at mom, you got to do something like this is you're gonna, I'm wearing about you, right? So, you know, you just have to kind of, you gotta just do it. You just gotta make sense, you know, make your family important. Make yourself important. And, you know, then it becomes kind of easy, almost like, oh, that's kind of nice.

Leighann Lovely 47:08

Well, this has been an amazing conversation. It truly has. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, for a couple of reasons. If they're looking for a job, want to get into the, you know, into the industry want to learn about, you know, what it's like to work with you. Or if somebody is looking, because they need a caregiver, how would they go about doing that?

Robin Elario 47:32

So our, they could call our main number, because that's how it kind of gets triaged through the front desk. And then Kim, who is my administrator, she would kind of take the reins from there. Our office number is 262-721-1155, they could always shoot me an email to our relario@assistinghands.com. And I could, I'd be happy to talk to anybody, obviously, at anytime, and then you know, transition them to the right person, but So those would be the two main, the main ways they could get in touch with us.

Leighann Lovely 48:11

Excellent. And that will be included in the show notes. So if anybody is interested in reaching out to Robin, please check the show notes. Her contact information will be listed there. Again, Robin, it has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.

Robin Elario 48:27

Yeah, don't worry. It was great. Thanks, Leighann. Take care.

Leighann Lovely 48:31

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact –

Linkedin – linkedin.com/in/relario

Website - assistinghands.com/menomonee

E-mail – relario@assistinghands.com

Office Phone Number - 262-721-1155

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, clients, business, employees, home, caregiver, hiring, mask, care, day, family members, office, checking, state, robin, job, experienced, individuals, hungover, wearing

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Jessica is not only an entrepreneur with a heart of gold that has sought out to create fair work environments on both side, but is a brilliant women that works hard to understand people and the law. She has spent her career working with people assisting with so many things, one hot topic today is change management. As we navigate so many things changing in our world daily, having a person like Jessica and Ollenburg LLC is the only comfort many employers have, and I got the opportunity to talk with her, you don’t want to miss this great conversation!

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Jessica Ollenburg is a multi-preneur, executive consultant and educator at the intersection of employment law, change management, and employee motivation, profiled as the pioneer of HR management, and research in Fortune Magazine, just founded the management consulting division of HRS Human Resource Services and also founded HRIS staffing division, which was labeled the anti temp service today at Oldenburg executive consulting. She continues working with business owners and C suite executives in legal risk management, organizational change, and magnetic culture, a guru of evidence, policies, practices and innovation. Jessica is also a multi award winning CEO, inventor, author, community leader, visionary, and topic expert. Jessica, thank you so much for joining me today. I am really excited to have you.

Jessica Ollenburg 02:18

Thank you for the invitation. Leighann, it's wonderful to be here and looking forward to the conversation.

Leighann Lovely 02:23

Yeah. So you are the managing partner and Principal Consultant of Oldenburg LLC. Is that correct? That's correct. And you and I, it's it's crazy how we met, I actually met with your husband in hopes of getting an introduction with you. And and then he introduced us and we've we've had the opportunity to talk numerous times. And I'm really excited to to again, have this conversation with you today and, and talk, basically pick your brain about a wide variety of different things, but mainly in the world today with change management and everything that's going on. I just I can't wait to jump in. So tell me just a little bit overview of you know, kind of what your firm does.

Jessica Ollenburg 03:16

Sure, sure. Again, it's wonderful to be here and I've enjoyed our conversations to this point and, and looking forward to continuing that. Oldenburg LLC is an primarily an executive consulting firm, we're working with business owners and C suite executives and employment law change management and leadership playbooks. It is very much focused on change management, especially at this time, and has been driven in somewhat of a predictive and early responder category for for many years. As an example of that, during the pandemic, especially in the beginning of the pandemic, when even the health departments we're not yet armed with guidance, and we're not agreeing with steps we found our business owner and C suite clients not knowing how to respond to a COVID outbreak, because there was no standardized guidance, and we became literally a 24/7 Batphone for our clients handling not only what needed to happen as far as safeguarding the immediate environment and proper notifications without risking medical privacy. How do we create assurances how do we tucked down the fear, how do we make people comfortable, safe, healthy? And what are the policies that we put in place? So it really was a shut up and hang on practice for a couple of years as we simply adapted and helped.

Leighann Lovely 05:18

Right? Wow. And, you know, obviously, the people who are not in it every day, you know, myself, I'm on the end of, okay. I may have COVID, I don't go to work, I have no idea what's going on, as you know, as a business owner of, oh, we have a possible outbreak at our company. You know, I'm not of the mindset of how do we handle this? How do we keep people's privacy, you know, secure if they don't want employees at the company to know that they're going and getting tested? And how, so I don't understand or fully understand, you know, that type of thing. So you, basically are the one who's reading through, I guess, the most updated law on that, and

Jessica Ollenburg 06:08

correct,

Leighann Lovely 06:10

And then having to regurgitate that to, you know, the business owners and explain to them how they have to then implement that at their business.

Jessica Ollenburg 06:24

Yes, exactly. And one of the unique attributes and a big reason that our clients knew to come to us and put us in that first responder category was our decades as friends of the court working in expert witness affirmative defense, and not as litigators, but as respected experts in law, where it becomes reasonable care, when we sign off on a practice for our employers. And therefore, now they can show that they took the reasonable care in being compliant. And that due diligence factor has been signed off on by a third party expert who's respected by the courts. So while you have these various local and Star state and federal departments all disagreeing on what might be safety protocol, somebody has to step in and say this is due diligence, this is where we're going to start. And you've done right by doing everything in your power to make sound decisions for the safety of everyone.

Leighann Lovely 07:45

Right. And by having that third party, at least you're I don't want to say pushing off the responsibility, but as an employer, you're wearing every hat that you possibly can to try to run your business.

Jessica Ollenburg 07:59

Absolutely, trying. And it has to be true that some of this liability needs to be subrogated. So that you can focus on your business. Right?

Leighann Lovely 08:11

And that's, I can't we, you know, small business. Well, any size business owner is got way too many other things going on. And that's why today, we are talking about, you know, change management, right? We're talking about, especially now in today's world, and I know that you and I had mentioned or when we had talked offline, we had talked about this world today. And again, we hear this all the time, well, things are so different than they were last year. And this has been something that, you know, throughout my career, they always are changing. However, with the onset of the pandemic with COVID happening. I know that people now are coming to you saying, Well, Jessica, how do we handle this? What do we need to update our employee handbook with to now handle all of the different things that are going on in our workforce? How do we make sure that we're covering everything and one of the big things is the remote workers, right? Absolutely. So on top of making sure that you're covering your butt for privacy with you know, everything that was going on during obviously in the middle in the midst of COVID Now we have a completely different view and, and vision of what our workforce looks like. So now that we've come out the other side, for all intensive purposes, I don't know if we're fully out the other side or or if this is just the new normal, right? The New Normal I know I hate that phrase. I do I absolutely hate it but it's just Right, let's just say that's what it is right?

Jessica Ollenburg 10:02

It Right. Right. It has its place in the dialogue creates its own discussion. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 10:09

So now everybody's all these companies are going okay. Well, I, I have maybe 25% of my employees working remote, maybe 50. Maybe now a company that used to have brick and mortar doesn't. And they have 100% remote workers, and their employee handbook from three years ago, has become completely null and void.

Jessica Ollenburg 10:34

Yes, yes, that that is true. And we can we can say no and void in a way that if we're missing the major risk factors, yet we have an instrument that speaks to it. Once we have written guidance, contract law tells us that an oral agreement is not binding, where a written agreement is already established. So the creation of a handbook. Some are still doing this cookie cutter. And it's crazy. What is the point of a cookie cutter handbook, I don't know, especially in today's times where it is so important to focus on engagement and getting the right people doing the right things with the right resources for your unique company. Putting cookie cutter policies in place can be very detrimental to that. But to your point of not updating it, as soon as something that is a major liability or risk is not addressed. We have a a handbook that has become entirely obsolete. So we are recommending annual updates. Some of the things we're looking at right now for our clients who have kept up with the updates are going to be looking more deeply at the hybrid and remote work, as well as changing laws in many states, counties and cities that need to be addressed. And what we see with the hybrid and remote work is the question becomes work Nexus we might have a an employee who is working remotely from Dallas, who is reporting to a supervisor in California, while the client is in some area of New York. Now we need to help that employer understand where's the work Nexus we sign off on that, and can create a bespoke agreement, which also needs to be referenced in the employee handbook as well. And we learn what becomes an individualized agreement versus a general handbook tool set.

Leighann Lovely 13:22

Interesting. Very interesting. So is there I guess here's a question that I don't know. With now, obviously, remote workers is, are all companies able to or licensed to be able to hire an employee from any state

Jessica Ollenburg 13:43

Occupational licensing? I don't mean to laugh, but I did get a Google alert on myself this morning. On this very topic, as I'm currently serving on the state's Study Committee, the legislative Study Committee on occupational licensing and where it comes down to occupational licensing absolutely affects hybrid and remote work because there are many cases in which we cannot cross boundaries. So if the work Nexus is now affected by whether or not the licensing is valid in that state. We have a compliance issue and a risk so we can't be allowing people to cross borders with their work unless the licensing allows it.

Leighann Lovely 14:41

And in there are I'm I'm going to and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to jump to the conclusion that there might be small business owners out there that do not know this that may run small, little kind of boutique type For businesses that now that they have the opportunity to hire a remote worker that they go, Oh, I can just hire somebody who's in a different state. And this may be something that they go, Oh, wait, you mean, I can't hire somebody who's in Florida, and I'm in Wisconsin.

Jessica Ollenburg 15:19

And that's a really good point, Leanne. And I would add to that, not only is that true is that that information is missing. One thing that's been true of our government throughout my many moons of career is the government states, it's not our job to teach you how to comply. And right now we have a government that's fundraising. So they're certainly going to go where they expect to find the fines so that they can fiscally cover their efforts in audit. Small businesses are definitely being a lot more targeted than previously. And especially because that's where you're going to find the holes. And the difference between these laws, again, can can differ depending on what side of the street you're on. We have states that are dividing their laws up by city and county, not just statewide, not just federal, so you really need to know what laws apply. And to your point of the small business owner being unaware, it's absolutely true in some states, paid leave laws or laws that might affect what you need to disclose and enforce to an employee that differs from one law to another as far as the size, some laws are written to say anyone with perhaps 25 Or more aggregate employees company wide, is subject to our law. Other laws might say, the headcount here within this state or this county, are those that will measure whether or not this needs to be enforced. And some will start with employee one. So we also need to help our clients understand what is the point at which they now need to comply with this law? Right? Are they in compliance, and much of it is disclosure through postings, which also now has to be virtual, because there is no break room for the hybrid or remote worker who's eating in their kitchen?

Leighann Lovely 17:48

That's insane. And I'm want to go back to the first the first thing that you said when you started off saying explaining all of that, you mentioned that it is not the government's job, to train on the loss, or something to that.

Jessica Ollenburg 18:07

Correct. That's very often been the government's posture, if not, quote at several levels, and we've seen it, we see it in audit. Ignorance is not an excuse, if you're audited. If you can show due diligence and reasonable care, you might have an auditor, who gives you opportunity to fix and just a slap on the wrist, so to speak. But you might get the immediate fine, especially in a situation where our government is fundraising.

Leighann Lovely 18:44

And yet they write it in a way and trust me, because I have sat and read through, you know, when, when the Affordable Care Act first, you know, was being and I'm I sat and read through page after page after page, it scratching my head saying, I have no idea what any of this means, you know, I was in a different industry at that time. Kind of a little bit of a different industry during that time. I was you know, and I was like, I really want to understand this. And I tried really, really, really tried. I'm an intelligent person, I'm going to challenge a woman. And I tried, I tried to read through it and I was like, I'm just really getting stuck on some of this on some of this, like I don't understand and then they say well reference, you know, reference this chap, you know, chapter one, four 3.5 blob in your life what you know, they they do not attempt in any way to write it in a in a way that makes sense to the layman person to just the normal. I mean, you have to actually be educated in reading contractual law.

Jessica Ollenburg 20:00

Law or illegals true? It's true. Yes. Which,

Leighann Lovely 20:04

Which means that you need to go to somebody like you who's used to reading that type of, of mumble jumble. And forgive you.

Jessica Ollenburg 20:15

Absolutely no, no, you're you're you're spot on with this. And funny that you mentioned that because that's yet another example of of when I can tell you that we've needed to be very quickly ready to discuss what nobody else was ready to implement when it came down so fast. But pakka and or Obama Care was one of those. And very quickly, we actually developed a speaker training, it took a while I shouldn't say quickly, it was fast, but it took a lot of work, and how to help employers understand, but there wasn't a whole lot to understand because to your point, Lian, statutory law is often written ambiguously and a little bit lazy, so that the courts are burdened with interpreting. So

Leighann Lovely 21:18

is that a weak Is that intentional?

Jessica Ollenburg 21:21

Somewhat, somewhat, you know, some of it is absolutely political and giving in on some points that are in argument in order to get something in play. Okay, because if we try to get anything through these days, given the divisive bipartisanship of every little topic, it's difficult because people want to stand on party lines and just say no, or just say yes and right. Reason should not be a partisan issue, but it seemingly is. So some of it is necessary just to get it going. Because if they waited until they had agreement, we'd never see anything.

Leighann Lovely 22:15

Right. Right. We just be, you know, shut, the government would be shutting down, it would be deadlocked all the time. Sure. Interesting. Okay, so what are some of the other things that that companies are coming to you, you know, for on a regular basis? You know, is there anything that stands out that Yep, this is a regular, they're always coming to us with, you know, especially now with, you know, the whole change management. I know that that was a, you know, hot topic that you and I had discussed, especially around the remote workers, but is there anything else that has been, you know, a huge game changer due to, you know, the the shift in the economy?

Jessica Ollenburg 22:56

Apps? Absolutely. We are seeing change management requiring a lot of evidence practices, and that's where we come in case studies that have worked and have not worked, that can be great blueprints playbooks for companies embarking upon change. Why would you want to embark upon change without some study and research as to outcomes and what to look for six hats of thinking, et cetera. So we're working with clients to help them with tactical planning, how to perhaps re posture given changing demand. And also major organizational changes were getting involved as closing counsel, if a company's cells were getting involved with creating shareholder plans outside of the ESOP. But my more creative and progressive limited shareholder plan for succession planning, and how to how to blueprint that we're looking at recessionary planning and helping our businesses, adapt evidence practices to do more with less. being frugal is important and putting your investments in the right place. Investments certainly need to be your employees. But it certainly needs to be also in balancing that with a sound business practice that safeguards those jobs.

Leighann Lovely 24:48

Right. Absolutely. And I think that a lot of companies have finally jumped on board with investing more in their employees and doing that in a By doing that in a more fruit, using the word that you use more frugal way, but more impactful way. And it's, it's becoming more evident that that is the only way to really retain your employees, keep them happy. And that is I mean, the importance of that in today's world is becoming more and more evident on a daily basis, in order to not lose those employees to competitors, because of, you know, $1, more or 5000 more a year, or whatever it might be. So yeah, I've definitely seen, obviously, you know, on the hiring side, I've seen that shift, wildly important. So absolutely, you know, your you, your company is, is very unique, in the sense that, and this is something that I am part of the reason that you and I originally met, because I, I, anybody that knows me knows that I am a an avid networker, I love to connect people, I love to be out in the world and refer, you know, individuals to each other. And so your company offers something that very few other organizations offer, I only know of a handful of them, you do things on an as needed basis, more of an ala carte type services, which is great, because a lot of companies out there, you have to have a membership. So if something, you know, all of the sudden happens, you know, you can't just call a you know, and I'm not going to name the names of the company, but you can't just call if you don't have a membership. If all of a sudden there's an incident at an organization, a business could contact you and say, Hey, could you come in and do an investigation for us? We don't have, you know, a huge HR team. But we need somebody who's an expert to come in. Let's talk a little bit about, you know, those different services that you offer, because I think it's amazing that that you you offer that?

Jessica Ollenburg 27:13

Sure, sure. And and it's very true. Our our projects are anywhere from 20 minutes to lifetime. But Time Well Spent is is very critical. And one of the things that's very important in our business model is ensuring that the client has value for every dollar spent with us that there is some return on that investment above and beyond the fee. Otherwise, we don't feel that we've done our job. So we simply don't let that happen. But you see, some of our clients might need regular attention and may be on a retainer basis. And a good portion of them really do work with us on call. Some of the leading insurance brokerages over the years have deployed us with their clients for legal and fiduciary for risk management, and even taking on the costs of doing that because it keeps the claims down. So we're in and out or around our clients for a very long time. But it's not uncommon for us to solve a six figure problem in a 30 minute phone call. So that's certainly create some value.

Leighann Lovely 28:50

Right? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And you you typically work on the employer side, is that correct?

Jessica Ollenburg 28:59

Yes, yes. Over the years, we've we've certainly made it a point to focus on both sides of the hiring desk because without bridging that gap, your business is losing a lot of opportunity. If your team members it, team building certainly became a huge buzzword. But the early days of employee involvement and quality circles and team development, were certainly on our radar all the way back into the 80s and everyday sense. It is critical that a top running organization has alignment without an ivory tower. If your employees are not buying into what you're doing and you're running a labor intensive organization, you're missing opportunities to succeed. So we do make it a point I'm a champion of the human spirit and lifelong among students of behavioral science and human motivation, behavioral anthropology, learning what makes people tick and spent, a, again, many, many moons in behavioral assessment, even developing those and validating them, so that we could predict not only how someone would perform in a position, but also was it the right thing for them? Was it the right thing for their goals, their soul their ability to retain and problem solve and optimize their talents? Or was it the path of greater resistance? Should they be somewhere else? So being a resource on both sides of the hiring desk, is critical to getting it done. We typically represent the employer in their interests, while also letting them know, hey, if you've got quiet quitting, which is also constructive resignation, we need to look at that. We need to fix that. That's that's not okay. You're doing something not right. And we need to fix it.

Leighann Lovely 31:15

And that's i Quiet quitting. It's that that's an interesting term.

Jessica Ollenburg 31:26

It is an interesting term, we used to call it constructive resignation. And it was an it still is actually a reason people would be denied unemployment. So I'm not sure why we're holding it in high esteem like it's okay. Restricting work when you're on the job is not in the best interest of your teammates, yourself, or your job security.

Leighann Lovely 31:57

Very interesting. So I want to ask something about your bio. Yes. So you will you founded HR s staffing division, which was labeled the anti temp service? Yes. Tell me about that.

Jessica Ollenburg 32:20

So, HRS was founded. We founded that in 1983. Mind you were at a time where HR wasn't HR, yet, it was still personnel, it was still very clerical. I needed to work full time already in my career and take 27 credits to get the first HR degree from Marquette because that's how I knew it was on the horizon. So the divisions that I co founded, I founded it while co founding the company, which was a family business. We're the management consulting division, which is what I do today, an extension of that, but also our clients came to us working in employment was not on our original radar. But our clients came to us and said, We want this temp to perm situation. We don't know who's going to work well, we need to train people. We don't know what jobs they're going to be in. But we want to hire them. We want them to work out. We just simply need some time before making that commitment. And would you do this for us? Because at the time, there were no there was no temp to perm. There was no contract. It was temporary. It was permanent. It was licensed under employment agencies, which was again, not consulting but being an employment agent. And the industry was very, very different. We did not work with temporary positions. But we did create what I would consider to be an upscale version of what would become a blend between strategic staffing and a PEO. Where we could offer improved benefits growth, improved problem solving, improved training, we could offer all the employees more by being on the scene, but then they would actually be directly hired after their 90 days. So the focus was on reducing turnover. And what we were talking about was turnovers costly. Businesses were not recognizing that it was a mess. Are you saying math is our friend? Right? Math?

Leighann Lovely 35:05

I feel like some businesses still don't recognize that.

Jessica Ollenburg 35:08

Well, it's true. It's true. I don't know how I don't know how some stay in business, right? You write

Leighann Lovely 35:19

a go to them. And they say, Well, hey, I want to hire somebody on I don't want to have to train them. And you go, Okay, do you understand that if you hire them on and you don't train them that they're going to leave in 6090 days, I mean, you understand that training may be a little bit, you know, may have a little bit of an expense to it. But the alternative is that you lose them because you didn't properly train them. And then they feel like you don't care about them. And feeling the feeling they have, will drive their decisions. Because if they don't feel like you care, that is reality.

Jessica Ollenburg 36:01

It is true, it's very true. And while we overuse it, in my opinion, the idea of feelings in the workplace, because work still needs to be protected so that we can protect our feelings and our ability to feel a certain way and take care of human needs. It is absolutely true, that feelings are going to impact behavior. We teach against fear. Fear, is something that can paralyze some, some might be able to get that adrenaline push and get through something because of fear. But it's short term, you rarely see that as a long term driver. Anything that adversely impacts the relaxation of the brain also impacts our ability to accept information. A long term memory is already scientifically stated that it takes three instances of learning before information seeps into the average human beings long term memory. And the long term memory in this case is defined as 20 minutes or more. So if we're putting people under a lot of mental pressure and tension, we are restricting their ability to do their best work. And this is also where a lot of harassment comes in, because environmental harassment can again, stop somebody from feeling comfortable enough to produce their best work. And it may take creativity and problem solving and just hearing oneself think, and you can't do that when you're under an inordinate amount of stress.

Leighann Lovely 37:58

Very interesting. Well, we are coming to time, but I want to ask you the question of the season and then get your contact info and all that other stuff. So sure. So what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your job? Or in your role, if you could?

Jessica Ollenburg 38:20

And I love this question, because change is our thing. We're very much Oldenburg LLC and me as a consultant, we are very, very positioned on change management and predicting what's coming down the pipeline for businesses, business owners, and how to best prepare and be proactive. So the state of change is constant in what we do and keeps us relevant, not interested in resting on laurels from the past. But using that experience, and combining that with the changes we're seeing and predicting to create some very cutting edge and inventive solutions, so that people can be distinctive when running their businesses and create that big data culture. But also keep an eye on that efficiency. Especially now when we're dealing with a lot of financial pressures and economic uncertainty, doing more with less. And keeping ahead of change is so important for every business. And for us to be studying that and providing some decision tools we found is been very well received.

Leighann Lovely 39:47

Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Jessica Ollenburg 39:53

Most of the information on what we do is at our website, which we love of visitation to and that is Oldenburgllc.com. My email is my first name at that domain. Jessica at Oldenburgllc.com. Happy to hear from anybody who thinks that we may be able to provide some value because we're really, really invested in the changes that are coming down the pipeline and helping people to do better with them and feeling safer and more assured that some of the change that we see coming is not negative. And there is some silver opportunity there that we're also finding for our clients.

Leighann Lovely 40:45

Excellent. Jessica, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. This has been an awesome and very eye opening conversation. So I really appreciate your time.

Jessica Ollenburg 40:56

Thank you, Leighann. I appreciate yours and your program, and I've loved hearing what you've done so far, and look forward to hearing this.

Leighann Lovely 41:04

Excellent. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Information

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/jessicaollenburg

Wedsite – http://ollenburgllc.com

E-mail Adress – jessica@ollenburgllc.com

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

employees, remote workers, clients, people, oldenburg, absolutely, state, company, point, business owners, law, true, hr, written, handbook, create, important, business, long term memory, jessica

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Many companies large and small rely on automated intelligence for hiring, whether that be through the application process, assessment tools, or something else. What happens if we are not keeping up to date on the backend programming on these systems? Join me for an insightful conversation about the next wave of auditing rolling out with John Rood the founder and CEO of Proceptual.

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

I've been looking forward to this conversation with John Rood. He is the founder and CEO of Proceptual. Proceptual provides compliance solutions for emerging regulations of automated decision making systems in HR and people operations. Proceptual is currently working with clients on compliance with New York's AI bias laws. Previously, John was founder of next step test preparation, which became the second largest provider of pre health and pre medical test props. John lives in Chicago, and is a graduate of Michigan State University and the University of Chicago. This is a hot topic, obviously, in the HR world, and I just really excited to talk with him. Because with less candidates, more companies than ever using applicant tracking systems, it's definitely something that needs to be talked about, with DEI being ever more important. So I'm, yeah, I'm very excited to welcome John.

Leighann Lovely 02:21

John, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have you.

John Rood 02:25

Hi, Leighann. It's my pleasure to be here. Good morning.

Leighann Lovely 02:27

Good morning. So why don't we Why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

John Rood 02:34

Sure, absolutely. So I'm, I'm an entrepreneur based in Chicago. And I'm running right now a company called perceptual and we're going to talk, I think, at length about what we do there. We provide compliance solutions for companies of all sizes that are looking to get compliant with emerging regulation around automated hiring systems, machine learning and artificial intelligence. Previous to that, I've been in the education industry for 10 years, where I built a company in test prep and pre health and pre medical. And before that, I would have been in management consulting and and that's been my path.

Leighann Lovely 03:12

Awesome. So Prorceptual. First, how did you come up with this name?

John Rood 03:21

Oh, my gosh. So I've been an entrepreneur for a long time. And I've tried my very best to learn what I'm good at and what I'm not good at. And two things that I'm bad at are naming companies and picking logos. So to be honest with you, I went on a really cool site that just has company names and has the URLs available. I saw a Proceptual it looked cool, it turns out, it means kind of a funky, little used math term. So it's kind of like, you know, kind of like techie kind of AI. So I snapped it up. Luckily, I then got the sense to hire a good marketing person. So we got new logo and everything but but kept the name which I like.

Leighann Lovely 03:59

Awesome. So tell me a little bit about, you know, how you came up with the idea to start this particular, you know, business and and why.

John Rood 04:10

Yeah, sure. So, I after I'd kind of gotten out of our last business, which we sold, I started to get really interested in artificial intelligence. And this was, you know, a year or two ago and it just kind of starting to get to get really big and I guess kind of like the mainstream of our of our consciousness and our media as a society. And I started looking more and more into, into kind of the world of what some people call AI safety or AI responsibility. Basically, the idea that with these new tools, we have to figure out ways to make this emerging technology work for us, as you know, basically as humans, as opposed to potentially against us. And so I started reading about that quite a bit and then saw, you know, there really hadn't been even as early as last year. Any Government regulation of artificial intelligence or machine learning, but I saw that that was about to change. And one of the places where I saw it was most susceptible or most needing really a regulation was in human resources and people operations. When we think about artificial intelligence, safety and responsibility, we think about, first of all, what are the contexts where it really matters. So, you know, if you had an artificial intelligence on, you know, in your, in your shopping algorithm, and it said, You like red shoes, but in fact, you like green shoes, like, who cares, that's not, that's not a big deal. But if someone does, or doesn't get a job, for, you know, for, for for the wrong reason, that's a huge deal, right. And we, as a society, you know, obviously in our government are trying to protect people, and make sure that companies do the right thing, and that there's fairness in our in our employment market. So I started to focus in there, and then started to see some of the regulations that are in effect, the first one being in New York, and I know, we'll talk about that probably at length, there'll be more regulations. And again, we'll talk about this in several other states, and then we expect there'll be some federal regulation in the next year, maybe 18 months. So I saw that, you know, this was a place where there was going to be a big need in the market. And, you know, given my experience running small to then medium sized businesses, I knew that, you know, everyone's working hard already. And when you're at, you know, a business with 100 or 200 employees, there's no compliance department, there's no general counsel, usually. And so when the HR leader gets into compliance regulation just plopped on on her desk. It's a it's a big issue, right? So I put our company together, to try to figure out, you know, how can we use both technology and smart people put together a suite of products that would help companies get compliant with these new laws as efficiently as possible?

Leighann Lovely 06:58

That's awesome. And it you know, as soon as you say, like, AI, we've all seen the movies of, you know, artificial intelligence taking over the world, right. I mean, Terminator, Terminator, and, you know, the newer ones coming out, you know, even kid versions of these movies coming out where, you know, our our artificial intelligence is taking over the world. And, and it's, it's true that it's a scary thing in the sense that we create these systems, and then how, and who is making sure that these systems are being fair to us humans? Right? How do we know that the information that we're putting in is being accurately governed? I mean, we Yeah, well, I'm assuming that we, you know, there's a bunch of little buttons that are being clicked of, Hey, make sure that you check this make sure that you check. But really, at the end of the day, how do we truly know, and then with the changing laws on a continuous, you know, continuing basis, who's going into these systems and saying, Oh, wait, I got to uncheck this box, or recheck this box, or does this box even exist? Right?

John Rood 08:12

Right. Yeah, there's, there's a lot to unpack there. And we can, you know, there's, there's kind of a set of discussions around automated systems generally. And then there's kind of a set in in specifically to, you know, HR and people leadership. In my, in my mind, I think what you said is exactly right, there has to be ways for us as a society, and then specifically, you know, us as HR and business leaders to think through, when we ask an automated system to do something, we have to make sure, first of all, that the inputs that are going into that system are the right inputs, and then we have to know what's going on in that system. So to break that down a little bit. If we have, you know, let's say we have, we have company X, and, you know, Company X has historically only hired, you know, hired disproportionate numbers of men or disproportionate numbers of a certain ethnic group. If we put that data into a machine, the machine doesn't know, it doesn't really have a preconceived notion of what that data means, but it will spit out the results it spits out, have a high risk of replicating that bias that went in. And a great example of this, this happened. This is famously happened at Amazon, several years ago, where basically they fed the Fed an algorithm, all the resumes of successful software engineers and you know, this is their logic makes sense. And basically they said, Let's see who's successful Amazon will put their background into machine and then it can spit out the the people that are that are applying for those positions that we think will be most successful. What they didn't realize was that disproportionately at that time, and maybe still now, I don't know but but at that time, Amazon hired lots lots more men in software engineering roles. So the algorithm sees that, even in a in one of the big challenges around this issue is, even if you scrape that information, right, so even if you put these resumes in, and don't tell people what what gender people are, the machines can figure it out, right? So they figure it out with things that are like highly correlated with gender can be highly correlated with race. And so the results that is puts out in the recommendations that it makes tends to replicate those biases. And those are that's like one one very big, probably the biggest sort of example in the screening process for, for people operations of some of the dangers that we're trying to, to solve for.

Leighann Lovely 10:36

Interesting. So because, wow, because it's so highly intelligent, it's able to actually predict the possibly the race and the gender of the individual based on the data that you're entering. And therefore the system becomes bias without us even knowing, because we are humans, putting the information into the system.

John Rood 10:57

Right? That's exactly right. And you know, the system itself, think about, think about the example of of race. Even if we strip racial or ethnic signifiers out of the data we put in which most companies weren't right, that's not right. No one's trying to create bias results, right. So we don't put that data in, right? If the machine takes things like zip code, which are highly correlated with race, or surnames, which are highly correlated with race, and says, Well, from from now on, you know, we've had more success hiring people from this set of zip codes, and it outputs that, and then it turns out that that's, you know, you know, a fancy schmancy neighborhood with, you know, only wealthy people in it. That's a really bad result. Right. So those are the kinds of things that we're that we're we're trying to solve. You know, and importantly, again, it's not that the people creating these algorithms are doing that on purpose. It's just that that could happen. And those are the things that we have to be aware of. And, you know, importantly, our government, both at the federal and the state level, starting to look into that in a lot of detail.

Leighann Lovely 11:58

Interest. Oh, my gosh, that. Wow. Is? So where do you even begin? I mean, how do you even? Yeah,

John Rood 12:13

Yeah, great question. So I thought about that problem a lot, obviously. And here's what here's, here's my thought process, we kind of created what what our what our company is trying to do. So I've been around HR and people operations for a long time, both in you know, running those operations at midsize companies. I'm on the board of a company here in Chicago that does corporate training. So I've seen a lot of I've seen a lot of stuff. And what I see is everyone, I shouldn't say everyone, almost everyone wants to do the right thing, right? Almost everyone in the HR world wants to hire the right person, meet that meet our diversity, inclusion goals, and just need help doing it. So the way that I think about it is, first of all, we take that as a as a given. And also, secondly, we want to figure out how to do it at scale and how to do it in a standardized way. So, you know, I think it's possible, I could have said, you know, let's think about like really grandiose plan to make everything perfect, I'm gonna go around to companies and be like, Hey, you shouldn't do this. It's the right thing to do. And certainly, we would get some uptake on this, but people are busy, right? And so it's hard to go and say like, here's the thing that you don't have to do. It's gonna be expensive. Let's do it. So the way I thought about it instead is the government is doing a lot of work on this right. And again, both the state the federal and federal levels. So what what we're doing is basically going regulation by regulation, and creating the right solutions to help companies comply with those. So our first regulation is coming up in New York City. Technically, it's in effect today. But they've decided not to enforce this new law until April 15. We'll have a second law in Colorado, which is more related to data privacy, but we're both kind of cover some of the same issues in employment, that's gonna go into effect during the summer, then we expect that we'll have regulations in California, probably this year, most likely Washington, DC this year. And then the you know, the big kahuna of this is the Federal Equal Opportunity Employment Commission, which you know, everyone in HR is very concerned with them and what they're doing, has identified the issue of bias and automated hiring tools is one of their top three priorities for the upcoming year. And we just on Tuesday, we're recording this on on a Thursday. So two days, two days ago, EEOC held a full day of public testimony and discussions around this issue. So a very long answer to your really good question. Like how do we how do we start doing this? Well, the government is is is gonna basically do it for companies, whether we like it or not. And, you know, what I'm trying to put together is those solutions to make that streamlined, to make sure that you know, HR leaders are already working 60 hours a week, don't Don't have to wade through, you know, 35 pages of of guidance on this stuff, we're gonna put that all together for them.

Leighann Lovely 15:07

So in layman's terms, basically any company that is using, and right now you mentioned New York, and Colorado, any companies in those states that are using an applicant tracking systems, so as an example items or to Leo, you know, two of the ones that come to my mind are going to start as of April 15, you said it's going to be enforced in both of those states or just New York, just in New York City, okay, just in New York City are going to start being audited to make sure that they are following a new regulation that is coming out by the EEOC, making sure that they are following certain guidelines around how that information comes in and make sure that it is more than not taking certain things into account such as race, or gender, or, and more equal to all applicants who are coming in. Because as of right now, the EEOC is is concerned that those systems could be biased in some way?

John Rood 16:16

Yeah, let me let me break that down a little bit. And I think that one of the one of the most challenging things about this this year and in this market is that every state is going to do it a little bit differently until we do have federal guidance. So let's start with let's start with this New York regulation. So this is for for those of you who want to look it up at home. This is it's called local law 144 of 2021. It's a New York City ordinance. So it's not even New York State's New York City, but obviously, that's a very large market. It covers every company of any size, which I was surprised about when I first heard about it, that uses what they call our sorry, that is so any company of any size that hires people in New York City, right. So it doesn't doesn't necessarily have to be based in New York City. In theory, if you're, you know, a California company, and you have, you know, 1000 employees, and you have one in New York, in theory, this, this pertains to you, although there'll be an enforcement question down the road. But here's what the here's the law entails. So companies that use what the law calls automated employment decision tools, have to get an I have to do a couple of things. But let's break down first, what that what those automated tools mean, the law defines it as, in a couple of ways. So the first way is, when there is a machine or algorithm that's making part of the decisions, the employment funnel, that's a system that that will require compliance. So for example, and the biggest example, by far is going to be resume resume screening. If you you know, you post a job, you get 500 applicants, your ATS, or the job board or you know, whatever, whatever software it is, is going to just show the hiring manager, the top 50, or the top 100. Right. So clearly, lots of those resumes are being screened out. Sometimes we know why sometimes you don't know why. But that's a place where you know, if the computer is making that decision, as opposed to the person, that tool is going to be under the law. We'll also see use cases, which will be covered under the law in the assessment world. So anytime you are giving candidates a score, or anytime that you were that you were using an assessment to rank order candidates, that's going to fall into law as well. There's exceptions there, there's always some nuance, but you know, for example, if we give someone you know, Myers Briggs, there's no reason to think that ENTJ is better than I, you know, INTJ or whatever. But if you were using that, and then saying, Hey, we're only going to take the ease and out the eyes, then there's a compliance issue, right. So if a if a if a company is using those tools, the law requires a couple things. The first and by far the most most challenging is there has to be an independent third party audit of the results of those systems. So interestingly, we're not auditing in this situation for this law, the inputs are what's happening in, you know, kind of in the black box of the computer, we're just looking at the outputs for this law. So we're generating a report that basically says, you know, let's say we did a hiring screen, and we're going to break down how many applicants were successful in that process by men and women, and then by the five racial or ethnic categories that are defined by the EEOC separately. And we have to say, you know, if you if you advanced 80% of your Asian women through this hiring process, but you only advanced you know, 20% of your you know, if you're Latino men, for example, that's a problem right? So those that's the information that we have to output. Companies have to put it on their website. Companies have to do some note application requirements that the systems are in use, and then companies will be in compliance with that law. And again, like you mentioned, Colorado, California, those will be different. Those will be very different.

Leighann Lovely 20:10

Right? So okay, so lot there. So in the law is stating that you have to have a third party do this. So there is no way around of hiring somebody, you know, to come in and be a compliance manager for this, it has to be a third party. So there's, there's no way around actually hiring somebody to come in and do this for you. Which means that I mean, this is something that companies are now going to have to budget for.

John Rood 20:38

Yeah, absolutely. So there's two ways there's that the independence of the auditor is defined in the law. First of all, the vendor itself cannot simply conduct an audit on its own systems, and then give it to its customers. It's very clear that, first of all, that's not independent. And secondly, that the compliance responsibility falls on the employer and not the vendor in this law. Secondly, exactly like you said, it's clear that the auditor can't be an employee can't be an investor can't be a board member, etc, etc, of the company itself. So that's kind of why we put what we're doing together. We're, that's what, that's what we do. That's what we're going to do for companies, because by law, they can't do it themselves.

Leighann Lovely 21:20

Interesting. Wow. And it makes sense. I mean, I'm not, you know, I sit here and go, Oh, my gosh, but It completely makes sense. And the fact that we are going in and, first of all, you know, I talked to a lot of people about the whole, you know, applying to an automated system, and you mentioned 500 applicants, any company would be like, Yeah, I got 500 applicants to apply. But you know, a lot of if you talk to the people who are applying, right to these positions, one, people hate applying through applicant tracking system systems, I mean, you're applying to a black hole, you apply, you never hear back, you have no idea. A lot of companies, I mean, these systems are set up to be able to do an auto reply, thank you for applying to our position. And then when the position is closed, it's it's designed to be able to say, hey, this position has been, you know, filled again, thank you for your interest, you know, we'll let you know if there's another opportunity that could fit your skills. And companies are not utilizing that, to do all of that there are plenty of employees out there that have applied to these positions, they never hear a single word on whether or not their application was even, you know, accepted. And when the position was closed, and you hear this time and time again, the applicant, you know, the employee, or the person applying that experience has been lost completely. And it's a frustrating, annoying, you know, position to be in when you spend hours of your day, I mean, it's a full time job looking for a job 100%. So it needs to change in so many different ways on on how these systems work. In my opinion, there are a lot of companies out there that I feel that they're it's it's pure laziness, because you can set these systems up to be very robust and very awesome tools. And the fact that they're not even utilizing them to their full potential, just speaks volumes to the fact that they're, they've lost their customer service when it comes to bringing employees in. So if they're not even using it to the full potential in that sense, what else is there missing? So I truly believe that there needs to be an audit system. However, on the flip side of that as an as a company, who's all of a sudden staring down the barrel of yet another expense that the government is going to impose on them? That is a, you know, a major frustration? Do you you know, with all that being said, Do you think that there's going to be companies out there that decide to eliminate these applicant tracking systems, or I shouldn't say eliminate, but to kind of go back to a little bit of the old school way and say, hey, just email your resume to me. Especially because we're in a time when there are there aren't 500 applicants applying? In some cases, companies only have, depending on the role 10 applicants applying?

John Rood 24:26

Yeah, I think it's I think it's definitely possible. And, you know, I've certainly talked to a number of especially smaller businesses, and this is how our business runs. I mean, we're a very small business to where we don't we don't use these tools, right. We we know people on our network, you know, we'll we'll put up a job, but then I'll manually look look at every single resume. So a lot of companies don't use these tools. The I've seen estimates our own data is highly skewed because people don't come talk to us if they're not using these systems. But I've seen data that something like 40 to 50% of companies are using these automate To tools that's going to skew towards midsize to large companies rather than small business for sure. But yeah, I think you're right. I think that especially, you know, especially sometimes we'll see in an applicant tracking system that there are and you mentioned this yourself like there's there's some automation modules, and there's some modules that don't use automation, right. So I think that definitely one thing that some businesses that just don't want to deal with this, this will do is turn off the automated parts of others, whatever system this is, and just kind of go without it until the regulatory environment is a little bit less uncertain and frothy? Yeah, I think that that, that could well be the case. The other side of it is, first of all, you know, the the cost of what we're doing and happy to talk about that is, you know, no one wants, no one wants to get a new expense on their in a budget, which they haven't, you know, haven't planned for it don't have authorization for like, that stinks for everyone. That said, the cost of you know, making the wrong hire is an order of magnitude worse, always. So I think that companies that are that are beneficial using these tools will probably just go through the compliance process. The other side of it, which we haven't talked as much about is, you know, fundamentally, if we are helping companies understand whether the tools that they're using are producing fair or unfair outcomes, that's not only a compliance issue, that's a that's a kind of a dei issue, as well. So I think that companies would want to know that, and will they, you know, will they have urgency on that issue? I don't know. But, you know, I think that if we're, if we're really interested in making sure that we've got fair hiring practices, and that's commitment that many companies have made just to do the right thing, this helps them fulfill that obligation as well.

Leighann Lovely 26:48

And I think that, you know, especially nowadays, companies are pushing for, you know, more, you know, equal opportunity or inclusion dei is becoming a conversation that is being had across the board with, I mean, everywhere, I don't know that there is a company that you can walk into that that doesn't, you know, understand for the first time, what Dei, you know, is whether or not they fool it, you know, understand the full breadth of what that means, you know, there's still companies that are a little bit behind in that. But that is a conversation that, that companies are having, for the first time on a regular basis of how can we, you know, infuse a little bit more, you know, inclusion, and, you know, spread our wings on that. And so, I truly believe that the majority of the companies out there are attempting to be, you know, more inclusive, and do the right thing, and try to change their culture to, you know, for the positive, which is, which is awesome, you know, for the first time in my career, I'm I'm seeing that shift, and that's happening at a at a much faster speed, then, than it would have if the pandemic never happened. Right. I think that we've all seen that. So with the implication now of of hiring individuals, I think they're doing that push. It just, it scares me with, you know, the constant changing in regulations. And so this is another piece that, you know, you and I kind of have talked about that, you know, regulations are constantly being rolled out. And you had mentioned that there's like, what, another five or six, you know, regulations out there. So, you know, with all of these regulations that are being rolled out, why do you think the government is acting on this now?

John Rood 28:41

So I think that, first of all, if we if we step back, so way, way, way back, EEOC at the federal level has since the 70s, done rulemaking in terms of, of this kind of like fairness in hiring. And so last year, actually, the EEOC put out a memo, it wasn't a regulation, but basically, what it said was, hey, all the stuff that you should be doing for your hiring process, you still have to do even if it's with this technology, right. So you're it's a company, the EEOC was clear that companies are responsible for fair hiring practices. And they can't simply say, Well, this algorithm that we got from some vendor made us do it, like they're gonna be responsible for those for those results. I think that EEOC has seen that more and more companies are using these kinds of automated tools, that number is likely to likely to go up because technology keeps advancing. But I also think that just the the consciousness of this issue is substantially higher this year than two years ago. Right. So two years ago, most sort of like average people were not talking about artificial intelligence, and you know, this year they are right so it's just a it's a much bigger portion of kind of the the thought share of our of our society. So I think that the government See, you know, hey, that's interesting, we should look at that. And then also, I think that you'll, you know, it just to be blunt about it state governments are, are very different in terms of their political leanings. And, you know, we're going to see that a lot of sort of the blue states, to us kind of the the political terminology, are really going to get out ahead of this. And especially the Oregon, especially California, and California is historically out in front of basically everything for HR and hiring regulations. So that's what that's what we can we can expect. So there'll be some leaders, there'll be some, you know, some catch up from other states as well. And then there'll be the federal action, which is already in process.

Leighann Lovely 30:41

Interesting. And so what do you think that some of this is going to look like? And how do you think it's going to affect? You know, and we all know that, you know, once it hits some of these big states that it just, it slowly rolls out everywhere? You know, we, except for legalizing marijuana, which? Sorry, lower? Right, right. Okay, anyways, I digress. Um, what do you think that some of these, you know, regulations are going to look like? And, I mean, what, what kind of impact? And I guess, you know, I always, you know, default to, you know, the financial impact that it's going to have on, you know, especially the larger companies, or I shouldn't say the larger companies, usually they're able to absorb those on a fairly easy level, it's usually the mid sized companies that, you know, have to have to figure out how do I come up with the funding for this, because they're, they're not, they're not small enough to eliminate, you know, these systems, they're not large enough to just be able to absorb the cost of what they have to do. You know, so what do you think the impact of some of these new regulations and again, for my audience, you know, this is not anything, this is not anything new, we're always have new regulations, you know, I go back to, you know, when the Affordable Care Act was implemented, and we all were like, Oh, my gosh, it's gonna cost so much in order to, you know, be in compliance with us. And really, when it was all said and done, you know, we were able to roll with that a lot of companies didn't see the financial impact on being becoming compliant the way that we had originally thought that it was going to be, you know, this huge cost to organizations, you know, we're most organizations were able to, you know, to roll without fairly easily, but I shouldn't say easily, but it wasn't as big of a deal as a lot of people were thinking it was going to be right.

John Rood 32:46

So what you're gonna see in this market is it's going to advance and I think a fairly similar way. And I think this is this is common, both for regulation and for technology, development in general. So right now, it's going to be annoying and onerous. And I don't know, it's not gonna be that expensive, but it'll, you know, there's certainly going to be costs associated with it, particularly as state different states are figuring out what to do. Right. So this is going to be the year that it's that it's going to be the most challenging as we go. I think that certainly at our company, we're using technology and, and software to try to make it cheaper to try to make it faster, try to get to compliance earlier. And I think that you'll see that as as the years progress, right. So it will be less, you know, we have to kind of put together these bespoke solutions for the states. And it'll be more like, here's, you know, here's the menu of states. It's tell us where you operate. And we'll, we'll send you the solution. ACA compliance was a great 140 1k compliance is one that we studied really closely. That was similar, people thought it would be hard. And now it's, you know, it's $5,000 for a midsize business every year to do with just a box to check. So I think it'll, I think it'll start it'll start developing like that. The other the other example, which is where this market is probably going to go is GDPR compliance, where again, it's it was amazing, right? And everyone remembers this, just like lay people remember, like, one day, there was no little accept cookies button, and then the next day, like every single website had to accept cookies button. It's gonna kind of be like that, right? So we'll it's figuring out what's the software solution to make this more straightforward. Now, that'd be the case, I do think that there will be lots of laws that are requiring third party auditing. So there is definitely kind of like a tech enabled services angle where this can't be done just with software. We have to have real people that people that kind of like sign up for the right code of ethics and are using their professional judgment in this as well.

Leighann Lovely 34:47

Very interesting. Very, very, so a lot to come. Do you? Do you have a place where people can, you know, follow you And, you know, hear updates on what's happening. And you're shaking your head.

John Rood 35:08

Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you for asking. Yeah, so our company has proceptual and I'm sure we'll have links there, but proceptual is PROCEPTUAL, we're at proceptual.com, come to our website, sign up for our newsletter, we're on LinkedIn, you go to LinkedIn and follow us on LinkedIn, we post everything there as well. I would, I would love it if listeners, you know, like it. Even if you're not going to do this this year, even if these laws don't apply to you, because you're not located in these jurisdictions, everyone has to kind of keep this on their radar. So I mean, my hope is that everyone's comes and signs up and stays kind of in the know about these regulations. We're also happy to talk to anyone about how these regulations apply to them. So if you go to our website and fill out the contact form, we'll happy to talk to any, any, any people leader and HR leader for free talk through what are the regulations entail? Does your company have responsibilities? Are these responsibilities coming up? Possibly in April, which is, you know, three months away from from where we are now, to my to my two and a half, actually. So yeah, we're around and we're happy to talk to anyone about what their responsibilities will be.

Leighann Lovely 36:13

Right? So, and you, obviously, you're talking to individuals, but do you, you know, are you keeping people abreast on on what those regulations you know, on any any news, you know, YouTube channel or anything else? Because you're truly a wealth of knowledge when it comes to this?

John Rood 36:32

Yeah, it's funny, I was, I was gonna try to shoot something next week on YouTube. And now you've convinced me, I definitely have to do it. We're gonna mark it on my calendar. But yeah, what we do at our newsletter is, basically I see our job is that there's this big kind of community of people, it's not a there's a small community of people out there that that are really, really interested in this stuff. So there's a world of academics, think tanks, nonprofits and government people who put out these, like, long reports on artificial intelligence. You know, and I had mentioned we had on Tuesday, we had a, you know, seven hours of EEOC testimony. Yesterday, we had a full day, which ended at 9pm, of testimony from Colorado. So one of our jobs is like, we sit through that, and and try to distill that down into what do people leaders really need to know? Right? So take a seven hour testimony and say, like, here's the five bullet points of things that you need to be concerned about. That's what we try to do in our in our free publications.

Leighann Lovely 37:28

That's awesome. That's absolutely awesome. Because it's, it's a hard I mean, as an HR, obviously, you know, as an HR professional, it's hard to keep up on these regulations. It's hard to keep up on any regulations, or keep up on your job, because what HR departments now are pared down to, you know, one or two people, and staying on top of, you know, insurance and staying on top of everything in trying to keep up on the newest and, you know, the newest stuff that's popping up is is literally impossible. So that's absolutely awesome. So if you want to find John, he's, he's, you know, set where you can find him. But I will also have that in the show notes. So, and this has been an awesome conversation. But before we wrap up, I have a question of the season that I asked everybody. So I want to ask you that you had a preview of that. What would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your in your role? If you could?

John Rood 38:25

Yeah, that's a that's a great question. And so I'm, you know, as I mentioned, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm founder CEO. So it was a hard question for me, because anything that I say is something that I can and should then go fix, right. So it's basically whatever I say is my fault. But I tried to think hard about it. And I thought that, you know, one thing that I want to see, changing in our in our company is, I just want us to be able to spread the word on this more. So I think that we try to do the best we can with marketing with free content. But you know, exactly like you said, we're both spreading the word on this, because our customers, mostly our customers, who when we first talk to them, I've never heard of this, they don't know anything about it. So we're both doing kind of our ongoing compliance obligations with our paid clients. But also we need to be keeping out getting out the word and spending time on our content. And it's that a that's always a hard balance at a small company.

Leighann Lovely 39:24

Right now. No, well, hey, John, this has been an awesome conversation. And it's definitely something that, you know, again, is, I'm passionate about I'm in the HR, you know, circle, I'm in it every day, talking to amazing people. And one of the conversations that will be coming up is is actually talking with somebody who's on the other side of, of an HR professional, who's on the other side, dealing with applicant tracking systems, because she's, you know, applying to positions right now. And, you know, it's amazing how much has changed in The last couple of years with regulations and, you know, utilizing these systems. So this is definitely something that I want to I'm gonna follow you and make sure that I keep up on these because it's, it is wildly interesting in it and I think it's going to have an impact on a lot of companies. So I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me and yeah.

John Rood 40:20

Leighann it's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Leighann Lovely 40:22

Yeah. You have a great day. You too. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Information

Website – https://proceptual.com/

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/johnrood1

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

companies, regulations, people, compliance, systems, hiring, perceptual, law, hr, EEOC, applicant tracking systems, applicants, DEI, applying, artificial intelligence, tools, states, employees, happening, resume

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Networking, as you have heard this season is so important and this is another fantastic conversation about the importance of networking. Tom Graybill the VP of Sales for Tri-Marq donates his time to help college-age and high school-age students learn the art of networking, a skill that we use from time to time and some of us more than others. Tom has a wealth of knowledge, with years in sales and a crazy cool background in news offering up great wisdom on the subject.

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:10

Well, you're in for a treat. Today I am speaking with Tom Graybill. He is the Vice President of Sales for Tri-Marq Communications, a video and event production company working globally to assist clients from entrepreneurs to Fortune 100 companies. Tom has worked at Tri-Marq for 27 years, and previously was in television news. As a producer for stations in Miami and Milwaukee. Tom is involved in many professional and nonprofit organizations, including serving as president of the Wisconsin chapter of meeting professionals International. Tom graduated from the University of Miami. He has been married for 31 years and has two adult daughters. And a fun fact he was on a game show. Tom, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Tom Graybill 02:07

Thank you, Leighann. It's, my pleasure, and I appreciate the opportunity to share.

Leighann Lovely 02:11

So why don't you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Tom Graybill 02:17

Sure. So I'm Tom Graybill. I work for a company called Tri-Marq communications. We're a video and event production company. I worked there for a very long time. In fact, in March, it'll be 28 years working for the same company, which is which is pretty crazy to think about these days. Before I worked at Tri-Mark, I was in television news. I worked at television stations in Milwaukee and also one in Miami. My tenure in Milwaukee was marked by being there. During the whole Dahmer case, that's probably the biggest case that I had to deal with, which was interesting. I did a lot of work. During that time, I actually produced some news specials every night with updates on the just specifically on the dollar case itself. So that was a it was an interesting, interesting time. You know, going back I'm originally from Ohio, I but I went to school in South Florida. And at a certain point, I got that job in Miami. And then I got the job in Wisconsin, which was very jarring to my then fiance who had never lived anywhere else but South Florida. And so moving to Wisconsin was a bit of a trauma. And every winter, if there's a lot of snow, my marriage teeters on the brink. But so far, we've been married for 31 years going on 32 So somehow I've convinced her to stay all these years.

Leighann Lovely 03:49

Wow, yeah, it would be kind of a trauma going from Miami weather to Wisconsin, which you know, right now as we record this, it's, you know, the snow it's it's not bad snow, but it's you know, you go outside and the wind hits you in the face and wow. And the Dahmer case Wow. Which right now everybody knows, you know, people who didn't know who Dahmer was the younger generation. Everybody's becoming aware of who he was because of this Netflix special that just recently came out. So you were actually like in that reporting on that as it was happening?

Tom Graybill 04:32

Yeah, it actually was I was I was a news producer. So I was I was producing newscasts about, you know, about everything but then the Dahmer thing happened while I was producing the five o'clock news, and I it's actually a little a little jarring for me because, you know, kind of following along. I a lot of things. I remembered Exactly. And they did a very good job in the Netflix special or the series on how they did picked up certain things. I actually got referenced in in the newspaper about the dumber case, because I made a phone call to Dominus grandmother asking her for an interview. And she kept pressing me for why why why do you want to talk to me? What do you know about your grandson? And? And finally I, I mentioned that you know that he was under arrest and there was some considerations going on. And apparently there were two newspaper reporters in the room at the time when she was on the phone with me. And they commented how another media person had so callously mentioned something despite the woman's age. So I'm that terrible person who didn't say my name, which I'm awesome about. But But yeah, so I also that, I also was mentioned another time, because I have produced I believe, I still hold the record for having produced the worst newscast in the history of wt, MJ television. News history. So why now? So I have you know, and they reported that in the newspaper as well on on a newscast that just went sideways, and etc. So are you for me,

Leighann Lovely 06:07

Oh, geez. Oh, my gosh. So let's switch gears here a little bit on top of your day job, which is really what I wanted to talk to you about, you know, you're you, you work a great deal with youth and helping them learn how to network. This is where it I really want to talk to you about because it's, it's ever more important these days. And, yeah, let's let's jump into that.

Tom Graybill 06:35

Sure that doing that is one of the one of the great pleasures I have in my life. And what it is, is I will go and speak to college classes. And now I've started to branch out into high school classes as well. And teach them the value of networking, I teach them, why you want to learn how to network, where you network, who you network with, and then give them some tips on how to engage in a conversation with somebody who you don't know. And, you know, these are, in many cases, skills that are never taught, you know, I can't say that I've run into anybody who's ever been taught networking. So, you know, so it's invaluable for them to learn this skill and to learn it early on. Because most of us as adults, we learn network by being forced to do it, and just doing it and just eventually finding our you know, finding our voice and finding our ability to go and interact with other people. And it's very fulfilling, especially when I see students who at the beginning of my talk, are kind of like, oh, I don't know, what's going on. Why, why is this important. And then by the end, you can see the light bulb going on. And you know, that you've given them, you know, a hand up on their future career and their future success.

Leighann Lovely 07:57

And that's something that you said is really, is really important. A lot of us just learned by saying, but or by being told, like you need to go and do this, right. And with no direction, no understanding, and you and I talked about this in, you know, pre prior to, you know, to recording today about how we were taught, right, or we were what we were told the goal was go to this event, and come out with to sales or come out with a sale or, and that was the only direction that we were given.

Tom Graybill 08:35

Exactly, and that's a terrible way to network. That is that, that's a way that becomes it becomes very frustrating, because, you know, people who are at networking events, no matter where they are on the spectrum, and in terms of their networking life, they're not there to do business, you know, unless you literally can, you know, hold your jacket open and and go like, Hey, you want to buy this watch, you pretty much can't do business at a networking event anyway. So it really is about making connections. And what I try to do is kind of pull some of that mystery away. And some of that uncomfortability away from students. Because, you know, they're like, oh, you know, it's so mysterious, and I don't want to do it poorly, etc, etc, etc. So, you know, having them be able to go and have some ammunition, know a little bit about what they're doing. Be able to be confident in terms of how do I how do I talk to a stranger? How can I interact with somebody who I don't know, and where do you one of the things I was gonna say one of the things I tell them to do is the next time you're in an elevator, talk to another person in an elevator, because all of us generally ignore the fact that there's other people in the elevator and we look at our shoes or our water our phone or the you know the flashing lights above the door.

Leighann Lovely 09:59

All right, talk to other people. And that's what I was gonna ask where do you start? Where, where? How do you because it's hard to I guess, if you have an introvert versus an extrovert, you know, I'm, I'm a born extrovert, I will walk up to anybody and it drives my husband crazy. By the way, I'll walk up to anybody and start a conversation. And I have learned, because this was not something that I, I knew how to do, I have learned to find a quick commonality. And that is something I had to learn to do. Because I thought that if I just started a conversation, they'll be interested in what I'm talking about, which is completely wrong. But so I've learned to pick up on the cues of oh, they just picked, I just pique their interest with this or asking them, so how do you start educating them? on where to begin?

Tom Graybill 10:58

You know, a big thing really is, what do you talk to people about? And I actually have a really nice diagram that I put onto a whiteboard or a Blackboard, and I talk about different things that you can have a conversation about. And they're, they're real basic stuff, you know, you know, the first thing I always draw as a house. And I asked the ask the kids, what does that represent? And they say, Well, it's a house, I said, well, it represents where you live. We all live somewhere. And in some cases, you know, we've lived in interesting areas, in some cases, we haven't. But you know, that that's a it's an easy conversation starter for somebody, you know, an easy conversation first, you know, you sit next to somebody, and then I just had this happened last night, where I was sitting next to someone who I knew, but I didn't know everything about her. And I asked her, have you always lived in Wisconsin, and then conversation starts from there. So a very easy way to engage in a conversation is to ask somebody where they live. But there's a number of different topics that you easily, you know, and I, I love ones that are very unusual, I will go in. And a lot of times, my first question to somebody who I don't know, who I'm trying to engage with is what do you do for fun? Because it's a very non traditional type of question. And everybody does something for fun. And the thing that's awesome about that, is that almost immediately, that person, if they're, you know, they're in the moment, they'll get a smile on their face, they'll feel good about themselves, because then they'll tell me that they like to knit or they like to sing, or they like to, you know, drive fast or whatever, whatever it is that they do for fun. Now, I've made them feel good. And to be frank, that really is the basis of networking, the very first rule of networking is all about giving. And you can give in many different ways, but an easy way to give is just make somebody feel good.

Leighann Lovely 13:00

Right. And to that point is when people feel like you're genuinely interested in them. That releases that good, that feel good feeling right? You take an interest in them. And it's kind of human nature, for them do genuinely, especially if they are a networker to in turn take interest in you. And that definitely, and that's where the natural flow comes from. So what is the typical age of these individuals?

Tom Graybill 13:37

So I, when I when I first started doing this, I this actually was an outgrowth of something that I was doing when I was a member of a professional group in Milwaukee with the Business Marketing Association, which is, unfortunately no more. But at the time, we started a subcommittee called the university outreach committee. And what we did was we went out to campuses. So we went to Marquette and whitewater and Ws CTC and other campuses around and we brought information to the students. Certainly, you know, both in an altruistic hey, here's some information that will help you in your career, but also in a sense of, hey, we're the BMA and, you know, we'd love to have you join our organization, if it's if it's right for you, it was you know, a matter of, you know, kind of a recruitment aspect, but giving them some value to show them that, hey, this is a good organization to be part of. After I stepped away from that organization, I was asked by some of the same groups who I had, you know, had appeared, you know, at their campuses before, to say, Hey, can you come back? And can you bring this this conversation to this new class and so that's really where that that grew out of. So, I talked to I have kind of a standing invitation at WC TC and etc, which again, you're you're talking about, it's not necessarily the traditional students who's, you know, in their, you know, late teens, early 20s. You know, they have certainly plenty of adult students who go to technical schools. But then recently, I've got a gig at Concordia University. And they, they're asking me back now to speak to four different classes. And then recently, I started speaking at high schools, mainly Milwaukee Lutheran High School. And that has been very interesting to bring the concept of networking to students who are these are their seniors for the most part in high school, so they're getting ready to begin their college career or their regular careers. But it's something that no one's ever spoken to these students before about why you would network? For many of them, it's a foreign concept, what what is this? You know, this, that's, it's an adult thing. And it's amazing, the kids who get it, I'm just like, oh, my gosh, you are so far ahead now, right? In terms of what you know, how you're going to be able to interact with other people, you know, not just even necessarily Oh, how are you going to benefit my career, but just to make relationships? You know, to be able to, you know, just represent yourself well, and become known, I always tell the kids, you know, it's the old adage, is, it's not what, you know, it's who you know, right? But the reality is, is that it's not what you know, it's who knows you, right? And networking is how you get known well.

Leighann Lovely 16:33

And it's, I mean, it's no different than, I guess, going to a party, but staying professional and sober. While you would hope that that's you know, and having conversations that are just a little bit higher level versus, Hey, man, you you want to go play basketball, or it's, you know, a little bit a little bit, you know, high or low. And sometimes this sometimes, you know, it digresses into, you know, although I guess, but for the most part, when you go to these, you know, these events, everybody there is, for the most part, everybody there is with the same goal in mind, let me meet somebody, find some commonalities, and see if it makes sense for us to pass business, or connect each other with other people who they could do business with. And as long as you go in with the, the idea that I'm going to help somebody today, and not the idea of who can help me, you're going to be successful, because it's always a good first get later mentality, which is the hard, you know, the hard lesson I learned, because I was taught incorrectly. And I think that many people who, you know, coming up in business, originally, not I shouldn't say many, but there were a lot of us that were taught incorrectly. Go in there, get as many business cards as you can, and you know, get a sale. And it was like, my first networking, you know, a couple of networking meetings were horrific. I hated it. I'm like, this is horrible. It was absolutely gut wrenching, horrible, you know, and it didn't dawn on me until I just gave up one day, and I just stood there, and I'm like, I'm just gonna have a drink. And I'm gonna stand by the bar. And then people started to approach me and they were asking me questions, and they were teaching me without me even knowing it. The right way to do it. And then I started to figure it out.

Tom Graybill 18:52

Yeah, I think I think that that's a very common story. I think that that is the story for most people. And it's a question of, you know, figuring it out at some point, understanding that, you know, it isn't about how many business cards you can get, and even who you speak with. Now, certainly, there's times that I go to events, and I'm targeted, I there's people who I know I want to speak with and I want to make sure that I try to speak with them and introduce myself to them. But there's so many great rewarding relationships that I've had with with people who I know will likely never give me business. They may not even ever refer me. But they're fantastic people to know. And until you take that step out, and and, you know, interact with other people you just don't know, I think the other the other big problem is that a lot of people who are going to networking events specifically, are people who are in sales, you know, in some in some capacity, and in many cases, they have a sales manager or someone else you know, or the owner of the company or whoever, who has has expectations for what they're going to get out of that networking experience. Because in many cases, there's, there's, you know, there's an expenditure, you know, to attend the networking event, right. And that's such a, it's such a short sighted type of approach to networking, it's, well, oh, if you didn't meet the right people, and come back with business cards, and, and, you know, appointments, and whatever, that that was, that was failed. And so networking doesn't work. That is a very inappropriate type of approach to networking, networking, networking should never be quick. Networking takes time. But the relationships that you build are deep. And, again, it's all that's really what's important.

Leighann Lovely 20:51

And I completely agree with that, if they're the lasting relationships will follow you your career, if you do it, right. And getting back to the young individuals, I had a conversation, just actually yesterday with somebody that we were talking about, you know, the hiring cycle and the way that people now are getting jobs. And she made a very bold statement, and she goes, it's no longer about applying to jobs, it's no longer it is become who you know, it is not, it's not what you know, anymore. It's become who you know, in order to get your next job. So in that conversation that, you know, we had, it was, you know, networking is that much more important to the hiring process to finding the next opportunity and to have somebody like you approach our high school students approach our college students and get them involved, even for your next internship. You know, if you're looking for that in college, it's, it becomes that much more of an important aspect to even landing that possible first job, you may be able to, you know, landed sooner, or even level up because of who you know. Now, Oh,

Tom Graybill 22:16

Absolutely. Every job I've had, I got, basically through networking. And it's invaluable, because hunting for a job can be extremely frustrating. I've never had to hunt for a job. It's been a wonderful experience, because I've had people who will vouch for me, that's the other aspect too. When you go in and you've networked, when you go in for that interview, you're already a step or two ahead of that other person who just simply called in answer to, you know, a LinkedIn job description or anything else like that. You go in with the reputation of the person who referred you going into that. And that's, that's invaluable. I mean, I, you know, my first job in news, I basically lied throughout my throughout my interview, but because I was recommended by my professor at college, who knew that the assistant news director and vouched for me and I, you know, I did a good enough job of, hey, look, I can do the job that he hired me. Now, admittedly, I think they were also hired anybody with a heartbeat. But nonetheless, it still was, it still was an important thing. My job that I got in Milwaukee, was literally because I had a friend of mine who had worked at a TV station in Milwaukee, WT and J. His news director, had called down to the station in Miami, where he was working, I asked him if he wanted to come back and be a weekend news producer. And he was like, wow, it wasn't really in his plans. He wanted to go to a bigger market, then back to Milwaukee. And the new structure. So was there anybody else who might be a good candidate? I happen to be standing next to me, he hands me the phone. He says here talk to this guy. That it didn't he told me it was a job opportunity or anything else, just decent. Just talk to him. And that's how I got my interview in Milwaukee. And that's I mean, every job I've had has always been networking. My first internship I got was because my mother was a great networker. And she, you know, talk to a GM at a TV station in Canton, Ohio and said, My son needs an internship. You know, when when will you have him in for an interview? There was no like, could you do this? It was more like you're going to do this. But right. Networking is just so important.

Leighann Lovely 24:36

And that's another thing is that when you meet these people in person, you then connect with them on LinkedIn. And I'm not saying that you have to meet everybody in person before you connect on LinkedIn. I mean, that was originally one of the ways that it started. I'm not going to date myself. But I will originally when LinkedIn started, that is we used to have what we call it LinkedIn parties, we'd all get together, we'd meet in person, and then we connect on LinkedIn. And that's how you like connected with people. It wasn't like, connecting, and then saying, Hey, should we meet up and talk? You know, it was you met them, and then you connect it. But that's the other thing with with LinkedIn, I'm pretty, I'm almost no, I'm positive that every job that I have ever gotten, I have either been reached out to on LinkedIn. And they have either come to me and said, Hey, we want to interview you and sourced me away from where I was at. Or I've gone after a specific position and reached out directly to the hiring manager and said, Hey, I applied to this job. And then they've just circumvented the entire application process, and come directly to me and said, Yep, we're interested. Or you're right, I knew them in person, and they just didn't even have me fill out an application of or even look at my resume. And then just offered me the job on the, you know, on the spot, we'd like to hire you. Like, do you need me to send you anything? Nope, no. Okay, great. I mean, because again, you're it all becomes who, you know, it becomes reputation, it becomes, Yep, I've already you know, you've got like five people vouching for you, we know each other in this in this community. And I am already ready to pull the trigger. And it's like, okay. And when you build, basically a bunch of individuals around you that all understand and know you like minded individuals, even not like minded engine, individuals, people who are, but they also respect you enough to be like, yep, we may not think the same. But I'll still vouch for this person, because I've seen her body of work or his body of work. And, and it's, I have to respect it. And that's what the core of networking, either in person or virtually comes down to, in my opinion, now, you're the expert. Well, I don't know, if everybody just just for my audience here, Tom is making a face.

Tom Graybill 27:23

So that's the other great thing about networking is that it's I, I'm still growing, I'm still learning, I'm still, you know, you know, perfecting my craft, if you will, in the networking world. And one of the things that you learn, too, as you go through networking is sometimes, you know, what you think the way you're, you know, your particular approach may not work, depending upon the group that you're in, you know, there's certain groups that are very open to networking, it's very easy, and that's the DNA and the blood of that group. And then there's other groups where it's like, okay, this is going to be a longer process, this is not going to be how many business cards can I hand out? It's going to be, okay, how can I cement a deeper relationship, you know, within that, but, but to me, networking is so beneficial in in just so many different ways, even just, you know, communicating with anybody. You know, one of the things that I strive for, is just to make one person smile. And, and again, it's, it's, it's not necessarily networking in a, you know, in a big, giant word, oh, you're networking with somebody, you know, to make them smile, but, but doing that is how you become a good networker. Because people then feel good about, oh, hey, there's Tom, whatever, you know, and you know, and you get known. And that's fantastic. It's a great feeling to be known.

Leighann Lovely 28:56

Yes. And here's, here's another thing is that when the first time that I met, you saw you in a room, you're not an easy person to Miss, how tall are you? Six, five, okay, you're not an easy person to miss and you have a presence about yourself. You're confident you're in. And again, I've I've seen a mix of introverts and extroverts all networking. You don't. And I want to put that out there. You don't have to be an extrovert to network. But there is definitely something to be sad about the extroverts in the room, a confidence in which they carry and often those people are the ones who are sought out. The ones who I really like to meet this individual, they seem like they know what they're doing, regardless of whether or not we actually do it.

Tom Graybill 29:49

Well you you've already heard that I just you know, I just lie to get jobs. So there you go. You know, but it is and the thing is, is that none of us are are always extroverts, none of us, you know, can depending upon, you know, the the atmosphere who you're with, I mean, just think of being a date to a wedding for someone you know, you know, so your, your loved one that you're going with, it's it's their family or their friends or whatever else, and you know, no one there, you are an introvert, and you need to be an introvert at the start of that type of thing out of respect, because people don't know who you are, you can't just barrel in and go, Oh, hey, look at me, etcetera, etcetera. It doesn't work that way. And so I think, you know, no one, I think, again, is born as an extrovert, we grow into it, because we have confidence, we know that we can have a conversation. And I do think that there's a responsibility that extroverts have at networking events, is to seek out those who might have more of a challenge, you see that person who's there by themselves, and I'm in I'm in a number of different professional groups, and I was actually president of, of one statewide organization at a time. And I would tell my board after we always had a board meeting, before we had our regular meeting with the with the rest of the members, and I would tell my board before they left, you are all in membership now. Because you are representing the chapter. And so you need to make sure that you are interacting with people because you are in membership now.

Leighann Lovely 31:29

Right, and you you hold that responsibility of when you see somebody standing there by themselves quiet, not understanding or not even not understanding, but but having that fear of how do I approach or, and there's still some times where I'll walk up to a group of people who are engrossed in a conversation, and I'm like, do I break in and introduce myself? Or do I let them finish their conversation, where's the line of, like, Hey, I'm here, or I'll just quietly go on. And then being the person who is engrossed in a conversation, you know, I always try to remember if somebody new walks up, that I'll pause, introduce myself, introduce the person I'm talking with. And then, you know, kind of finish our finish up our conversation really quick, and then bring in the new person because I hate being that person on the outside. And those are just things that as now a seasoned networker, I notice. Whereas somebody who's new, they don't.

Tom Graybill 32:40

And that's an that can be a an easy source of frustration. Because, you know, I don't know how to do this, I don't want to embarrass, embarrass myself, I don't want the other people to appear awkward. One of the things that I that I do in when I go and teach is that I show body language of how to be welcoming, if you're having a conversation to welcome other people into your circle, if you will, and, and at times how to see, well, these are people who are embroiled in a, you know, a personal conversation that they're not open to, and so maybe it's time to look for somebody else. And it's not just a matter of engaging, but I also teach how to disengage, which is a very important skill to have. And, you know, it's one of those things where you can have it make a great impression on the person you've spoken with, and they can be feeling really good about you. But then if you disengage poorly, now, now they have a different, you know, their last image or their last memory of you is not a good one. And it can really cost you, you know, status in their eyes. And it's, again, these these techniques, none of it's rocket science, it's, it's more of just understanding how you know, the psychology of people, right? And how you need to make an impression and how you can make one quickly. And certainly how you avoid making a negative impression.

Leighann Lovely 34:13

And that's it's while disengaged, that's wildly important, because at a networking event, you never want to get stuck talking to the same person all night long. Or you've defeated, you know, the, and a lot some people will they'll, they'll bring, trust me in the early days, I'd be like, Okay, I'm not gonna go to this one alone. I'm gonna bring a wing man. And then what you find yourself doing is standing and talking to that person all night long, and you're like, wait a second, it just completely defeated the purpose. So I'd go with that person. Then we would split up and we would walk around the room and then we come back together and be like, Okay, how are you feeling? Are you comfortable? Are you talking to people? And then it was like, Okay, now I'm getting into my groove where I have absolutely no problem going to a networking meeting completely by myself. Often walking in and being totally fine. Even a brand new, you know, group that I've never been to, typically I run into somebody I know anyways, but again, that's, you know that this is what happens when you've been doing this for too long. Like, oh, I know everybody here I need to find a new group. But, you know, it's when you disengage where you're talking, and all of a sudden that conversation gets to the point where it's like, okay, we've exchanged information, we've, you know, we've, now it's time for me to move on, it's time for you to move on. You never want to be like, Okay, peace out. Gotta go. You know, so, I struggled with that one in the beginning of okay, now I've spent, you know, 20 minutes. And I've only got, you know, half an hour left before this is over. What do you say to that person? Or what body language? Or how do you walk away from that person without them feeling like, you're not interested? Or you're being rude? Right?

Tom Graybill 36:08

Yeah, yeah, it's wildly important. Yep. And it doesn't have to be awkward. It really is more putting yourself to a certain sense in their shoes, on how am I going to make this person feel good, as I'm leaving them, right. And, and I, in my, in my classes, I give techniques, you know, and some key phrases and some other words that you can use. And, again, the great thing about is that I give enough variety that the person can kind of pick and choose what they're most comfortable with what fits their personality, how are they, you know, and even even with that, too, it just gives them options. I mean, you know, you're not always going to start every conversation with what do you do for fun? You know, sometimes it's not going to be appropriate, sometimes we need to start in a different way, right? So you have to, you know, it's good to have a number of different options, in any situation that you can adapt to what is the most appropriate for that that particular moment. You know, and again, once you get experience in networking, it just, it just becomes so easy. It's just, it's just what you do. It's not any special sauce or, or secret method or anything else. It'd be, you know, good Networkers are very genuine, and how they relate to other people. It's not forced.

Leighann Lovely 37:27

No, and I absolutely agree. You know, and in my key because of my background, HR, staffing, I always start I almost always with somebody I've never met, what do you do for a living? It's ingrained in me my eye. When we walk up to somebody at a wedding or a party. It's, it's my husband is like, God, you never stop working. You always like it's, it's just, it's just the question I ask, what do you do for a living? Are you happy? Do you enjoy it? Like, oh, my God, I'm interviewing this person.

Tom Graybill 38:03

When you pull the format, can you fill this out? For me? That's maybe where you cross the line?

Leighann Lovely 38:09

How much do you make a year? Would you like to make more? Do you need benefits? You know, I'm a serial. I'm a serial worker, a serial networker. I can't, I cannot turn it off. It's just who I am. And it drives my husband crazy. But yeah, I mean, it's just, I've been like that my whole life. But you also have to understand, I grew up with parents who, you know, had, I guess, customer appreciation parties. And I was networking at a very young age. I just didn't know it. So then when I started my first job, and they're like, you're gonna go to this networking meeting, and you're gonna get three sales. And you're going to, I thought, oh, okay, so that's networking. I was just being the good daughter helping host this party. And then when I realized, no, I, I'm not doing it right now. I was networking. I was going and talking to people and getting to know them. That was real networking. So now, I I want to make a point here, right now. This is really a volunteer thing that you are doing. And that's amazing. I wanted to point that out. Because in reality you should be. You should be having classes that you're you're being paid for this because this is something that should be a regular scheduled class that students are able to sign up for and having a true instructor that because out of all of the things right now, in the world that people need. This is one of the classes that should be mandatory. going into a professional going into any type of of, you know, industry or whatever it might be. It's something that's this is part of the package of training on soft skills. And we aren't training our youth, we aren't training our college students on soft skills. And this is one of those things that I truly believe needs to be addressed and trained on. So I just want to commend you that you're one of those, you know, there's a handful of people out there who are continuing to do their part and, and helping and I want to commend you on that.

Tom Graybill 40:36

So well, it's, it's incredibly rewarding for me, I used to tell the instructor at WCC who would give me two hours to go in and talk to the students that that was the best two hours of my year was going in and talking to these these kids and, and in two hours I can I would cover, I'd go beyond networking, I would talk interviewing, and I would talk a little bit of resume stuff as well. But it is incredibly rewarding. And I've had so many great experiences doing it, that, you know, that that's again, how I get paid, is through those great experiences. And I've actually had students come back and say, Oh, hey, I remember you, you came and spoke to my class about networking. It was really kind of cool, where one of the members of the Brookfield chamber came up to me and said, Oh, hey, you know, you spoke I remember you spoke, spoke to us, you know, taught us about networking. And this is a guy who owns his own company right now, and is very successful. And, you know, I, I can't necessarily take all the credit for it. But I'm happy that that hopefully, I gave him some skills to be able to be useful.

Leighann Lovely 41:50

You should bill him now. No, just don't think that he's gonna pay that bill, but probably no, no. So I'm just, you know, we're coming to time. And before we get too far down the rabbit hole here, I wanted to talk to you just a little bit about because we talked a little bit about your background and where you've been, but you now are with trademark, you refer to in many circles as the video guy. And the question of the season, which I don't think that you got a huge preview of that. I want to ask you that. But tell us a little bit just a brief what is what is trademark?

Tom Graybill 42:41

Sure. So Tremec is a video and event production company. And we work you know, with all manner of different types of clients from from entrepreneurs up to the fortune 50. And we work throughout the entire world, especially on our event side, we just did an event A week and a half ago in Malta, which is a small island in the middle of the Mediterranean Sea, just south of Sicily. And so our teams right now are spread throughout the country, because it's meeting season, helping clients with conferences, sales meetings, user group meetings, annual meetings, whatever. So that's a that's a huge part of our business. And then, you know, on the on the video portion of our business, we do all manner of video from animation to live, you know, to interviews to going in and shooting in factories, we have a really awesome interactive display that just got put up into the war oil in Milwaukee to honor the 64 recipients of the Medal of Honor who who came from Wisconsin, so it's a giant video wall and a kiosk that you can, you know, see the stories of these, these gentlemen and what they did to earn this recognition. So it's, it's really a very awesome experience that I've been able to have. Every day is difference. We, you know, again, working with all manner of clients, large and small, and hopefully going to be helping a, a budding country music star with his first performance video to go and get him more gigs. That hopefully we'll be shooting in March and, and I get to do a lot of you know, it affords me the freedom to go and do the networking thing as well as do some other things to sponsor causes that are important to, to me. You know, I'm a member of the the USO Marketing Committee, and each year we get to produce some videos for their annual gala to honor the heroes of Wisconsin to the servicemen and women who serve in the different military branches and keep us safe. It's it's, it's a privilege to be able to help in that tiny little way to help these men and women.

Leighann Lovely 44:59

That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. So the question of the season may not apply, but what would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role?

Tom Graybill 45:13

What would I change about my job? You know, again, having having been here as long as I have, obviously, I'm, I'm very lucky and very blessed with who I who I work with both my clients and my colleagues. So I'm not sure that there's, there'd be much I changed about my job other than I changed the perception that's out there, that, you know, I can get it done cheaper, that that price is the only consideration that matters when it comes to, you know, doing events or video production, that there isn't a difference between working with a professional versus going and shooting it on my iPhone. And, you know, getting it out there. I mean, it's great to me, that there's so many options for people to get video content out there, because video is one of the most effective marketing tools that you have. But it is something it's important that things be done. Right. Right. And and I'd say even on the event side, it's even more important because you only have one chance to do a live event, right? And if it isn't done correctly, right, you know, I will, I will say there was an event that you and I attended. And one of the things that that did troubled me about that event is that you have a stage and you have no lighting on that stage. And so for me sitting in the back, it was dark. And it was hard to see the speakers who were there, and it wouldn't have taken much to get a couple of lights up there. But it's something that people don't think about if they're not working with a professional who's in the business,

Leighann Lovely 46:46

Right, that make them look good, of course. Yep. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, if somebody is interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about contacting you?

Tom Graybill 46:58

Well, probably the easiest way is is email. I'm still a little old school when it comes to making contact. But my email is a very easy email. Well, I think is an easy email to remember. But there is a little twist to it. So we are trademark with a Q. And the reason that we're trying to work with a Q is because originally we were going to be founded by three graduates of Marquette University. So try Mar Q makes sense. It was only two guys from our cat. But by Marq doesn't roll off the tongue like tri Marq does so. So we kept it with that. So yeah, anyone who would love to, you know, I'd love to interact with anyone who'd be interested in chatting about networking. Certainly, if I can help them on the video or event side, happy to do that. But my email address is Tom@trimarq, T R I M A R Q .com.

Leighann Lovely 47:46

Excellent. And I will put your contact information in the show notes. Tom, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time. And I think it's just absolutely amazing that you, you know, donate your time to you know, work with our youth on such an important thing that, you know, I wish that I would have had somebody who taught me so thank you again for taking the time to talk with me today.

48:11

Thank you so much, Leighann. It's been my great pleasure.

Leighann Lovely 48:16

Contact – Information

E-mail - tom@trimarq.com

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/tomgraybill

Website – www.trimarq.com

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, networking, talk, conversation, person, milwaukee, job, important, extrovert, networker, students, wisconsin, tom, dahmer, interview, taught, event, speak, professional, trademark

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

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Tatyana St. Germain is a brilliant woman who focuses on providing guidance and coaching using development assessments, talent optimization tools and so much more. She is a straightforward, no-nonsense person and in today’s world we need more people helping companies and leaders have the hard conversations. Tatyana is amazing at her craft and this is a conversation that you won't want to miss.

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

Today is going to be a great episode. I have an amazing guest joining me today. Tatyana St. Germain is the founder and CEO of Great People Management, a consulting firm that offers hiring and development assessments, talent optimization tools, and leadership and executive coaching. Tatianna believes that people are the foundation of every business, but the right people are the backbone of a successful business. She has helped over 1000 organizations across the US, Canada, Europe and Asia, develop their leaders and establish sustainable and cost effective systems to select, retain and develop the right people who get results and smash the competition. With over 20 years of business, corporate, and international experience. She is an expert in understanding and solving complex people challenges in the workplace, including selection, onboarding, turnover and retention, her integrity her unique perspective, valuable insight, keen observation, and a no nonsense approach attracts companies who demand results, who strive to always be better, make smarter decisions about their people and increase effectiveness of their managers and teams. Tatiana's background spans a variety of fields, linguistics, international relations, training, teaching, recruiting, business development, strategic planning, service excellence, and CEO roundtable facilitation. She is a vintage trust advisor and an avid networker when she is not connecting people or trends, forming organizations. She enjoys making wine, cooking, reading, camping, gardening, stargazing, traveling and RVing around the country with her family. Tatiana, thank you so much for joining me today.

Tatyana St. Germain 03:16

Thank you for having me on Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 03:19

So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Tatyana St. Germain 03:24

Alright, well, my name is Tatyana. I am an executive coach of 100 and CEO of great people management. I work with corporations to help them ensure that they have the right people in the right positions. So sort of in talent advisory role, as well as working with executives and leaders in management at the management level, and all the way to CEO, coaching them and providing leadership development and team development services as well.

Leighann Lovely 03:55

That's awesome. Now you, you specialize in actually using assessment tools to, you know, help with reviewing employees and doing a lot of your coaching or in I'm sorry, doing a lot of your work with these individuals and these companies, I should say, not individuals. Tell me a little bit about, you know, how you utilize these assessments and how that can be effective.

Tatyana St. Germain 04:23

Well, what's interesting, and you kind of mentioned this already, I work with both individuals and companies. Okay. So in what I'm finding in my consulting practice is what we're lacking is information. I know we're surrounded by information, but there's a lot of noise. And what we're not focusing is information about people, individual people, and it's a really powerful piece of data, very scientific piece of piece of data that psychometric assessments provide, and when you can measure somebody and know exactly what makes them tick, understand their story. some weaknesses, understand what motivates them understand their full potential, then as a hiring manager, as a leader, you can make a much better, more informed decision. What position to put this person in? Will they be a good fit for this role? Will they be a good fit for this team? How will I, as a leader, as a manager work with this individual? And so this information can be used both on the hiring side, on post hire promotional decisions, any human decision in the workplace, is it's extremely important to make it as precise as possible. So we're not It's not like a flip of the coin. Who do I hire today? Well, who do I promote today? Or how do I put a project team together? A lot of times, it's just intuition you're guessing. And some leaders are better at it than others. Most people, it's kind of by the seat of their pants, it's based on observed behavior. They're making some inferences, make some assumptions, and hope for the best, essentially. And it's, it becomes very frustrating when it starts to cut into the company bottom line, when you were lacking engagement, when productivity is not up to par, when you you wake up one day, and we realize your entire team is just a bunch of mediocre performers. What are you going to do about it? And or what's even more frustrating to COVID, we a lot of organizations experienced this, people just left. So turnover issues that cuts into the bottom line, it's extremely costly. In other words, not to have the right people in the right positions. And going back to your question, that's what employee assessments help us to really reduce costs, improve lives of humans in the workplace, because they are happy in their jobs. And when people are happy in their jobs, they make companies that make they do great stuff. And sometimes I just educate organizations and HR professionals, I do webinars and in person events, seminars, telling them about different assessment tools, because there's 1000s of them out there. And other times I actually get involved with my clients and help them implement assessment products for different initiatives.

Leighann Lovely 07:31

So in let me just swipe, so we get some clarification. So on these assessments, and let's, I guess, take one, for example. The DISC assessment, when you're grabbing this information, how do you turn that information into usable, understandable data that a hiring manager, for instance, can use to make an informed decision on whether or not this employee is going to or how to, you know, train this employee? Or how to, I guess, how do you turn that data into real, tangible information that can be or it maybe it's not a DISC assessment? Maybe I'm calling out the wrong one. But how do you how do you translate that so that it can actually be made? Because there's a ton of information on there a ton of you know, here's what they're strong at, here's what they're weak at, but how does it How does it then translate to be usable, functional, functional information that can then be valuable?

Tatyana St. Germain 08:47

Tunable insights, is what you're looking for. So that's part of the reason why I focus so much on assessments that produce those actionable insights that anyone in the company can pick up and make a better decision. So there's no guesswork, there's no interpretation, because whenever you involve humans in interpretation, you're introducing bias. And on the hiring side, it's well, it's a very litigious environment. So we don't want to introduce that personal bias, we want to remove personal bias from the hiring process. We can not remove it completely because at some point in the hiring process, you have a face to face interview with a bunch of folks potentially, so that that is still a human to human interaction. But when we are measuring people you have to as an organization, you have to ensure that you use tools, psychometric assessment tools that are specifically validated for pre employment, and just because not one of them. This is according to Department of Labor, and there's over 4000 disc type assessments on the market. So the good ones I'll take a will tell you it's in their technical manual implementation guides. The disc is not used for hiring, because it does not have the job matching capability. It measures their contents. But post employment, I use disk, it's very useful for team building, and for onboarding, and for in terms of actionable insights. So depending on what type of dispute use, I use a lot of quietly products and their disk actually produces actionable insights, or reports that again, managers can take and run with it. And include that as part of their onboarding process as part of their team building exercise, I still recommend a facilitator, such as myself, to do something like that. And I do a lot of team workshops. But again, this is kind of a fallback for my practice, I use normative assessment tools. I'm not sure if you want me to call them out or not.

Leighann Lovely 11:02

It's, I'm, you can call out whatever you want. I'm, an island over here.

Tatyana St. Germain 11:10

Okay. So I use again, it's a widely tool, PST select, assessment, and a couple of others to Lexis tool, and I recommend my clients, there's a few other tools that are a little more expensive and more cumbersome to use, not scalable, but they're also very effective, scientifically based assessments. They measure the total person. And you know, when I get this question quite a bit, so what's the difference between disk and px T? Other than those actionable insights, right, in the hiring, that post hire, what's the real difference? How differently does it measure an individual. And somebody recently, one of my colleagues said, Imagine the disk is like an x ray. And px T is like an MRI. So it goes deeper, broader, and measures the whole person. So that's the that's really the big difference.

Leighann Lovely 12:08

Now, before you go on, now, you mentioned a facilitator, because I'm assuming that this information is his own, only as good as the person who's getting the information, right. I mean, I can sit in and read all of this information. But if I don't know what to do with that, it means nothing.

Tatyana St. Germain 12:28

Yeah, that's, why I do record when, when budgets are concerned, right, for a lot of people, for a lot of organizations. So it's, it's almost humorous, sometimes when budget is allocated to quote unquote, employee development, or team development. And that budget is only big enough to buy assessments. It's not big enough to hire facilitator, or it's not big enough to take the next step and hire a coach. If there's a need for leadership coaching, or executive coaching. It's kind of like, well, why did we even start down this path? Yes, I absolutely recommend when we're in a situation of team development, leadership, development, et cetera. You cannot leave people to their own devices. It's great information, all assessments I use of those great reports, insightful reports for self awareness for coaching, even self coaching, and how to work better together with other people, how to work better with the whole team, how are we different? How are we similar? But it it's much more fun. When you attended the workshop that I I facilitate, because I add some of that color commentary, I share real life experiences. And then it's an opportunity to, for for the attendees to ask questions, very specific questions, or raise their hand and say, Oh, yes, that's why you're this way. Remember, when we were working on this and that, and you did this? Yes, that makes sense now. So they are learning about each other. It's, that's why it's truly a workshop. And they walk away with more tangible, very applicable personal information that they can then apply in their day to day work interactions with others, but on the hiring side, because it's usually higher volume, and I work with midsize to large organizations. The idea is to empower hiring managers with information from from these job matching reports. And it does not require interpretation because it gives them interview questions. So they don't need to do really anything else. I mean, they can call me for a debrief. I'm always He's available. I couldn't get through quarterly trainings with all of my clients, a lot of refreshers, touch points, I want everyone to be on the same page. But that that part of utilizing assessments for hiring purposes, generates Behavioral Interview Guide, that they can ask those questions and make a better decision.

Leighann Lovely 15:24

So something that you said, like really hit me here, you said, you know, after you, you know, work with people, and people walk away going, Oh, wow, that's why you handled something this way. Or that's why you are, you know, this, this way, or whatever. And so I recently took, oh, my gosh, and I'm going to embarrassed, embarrassed myself and not remember what the assessment was. But it's it definitely explained why certain individuals on my previous team were the way that they were. And in doing that, do you find that team members start to become a little bit less stressed, in interaction, and even with each other, not just managers, but team members and having a better understanding of the way that their teammate processes information. And communication opens up a little bit better and people? I mean, I have to imagine that just understanding the way that XYZ coworker handles things, and understanding that can open up huge doors.

Tatyana St. Germain 16:42

Well, that's what I love about my job. Every person is unique. We're all born unique and different. And when we look at another unique person, a coworker, or team member, we see differences, we perceive differences, but we see them as difficulties. Because what happens is our fear centers in the brain, the reptilian brain takes over, the amygdala kicks in. And we start to fear the unknown. Because if it's something different, it's a mystery. It's unknown. And we take that personally. And when people act on their differences, that's when conflict, potentially, or we can misinterpret make assumptions. And it can cause conflict, I do get involved with conflict resolution situations as well. And usually boils down to communication. And communication, if we break it down to how it starts, usually is because of those differences. Because of assumptions, I'll give you like a quick example. You can take a person who is extremely skeptical, and then you take a person who's extremely positive and optimistic. And when they come together for meetings, or one on ones or whatever, whatever. Let's say they're working side by side on the project, they're more more skeptical individual is going to ask a lot of questions. Because they don't trust themselves. They have high standards for themselves and others. And they're very vigilant. This is what drives them. And they can come across as negative. And and everybody else on the team, and especially this extremely positive person might might say, Well, gosh, there's so negative, it's really toxic toward me, we start to put labels on this, like, what's what's going on within your life? What's wrong with you, okay, there's something wrong with you. Or they can take a different tack and say, well, they're doing it to me. They're doing it to me. And so that becomes stressful for the positive person. On the opposite end of the spectrum, a skeptical person could look at a positive individual, a trusting individual and say, well, that's their stupid. How can you not ask this question? That's just dumb. So there may be lack of respect. And it all stems from lack of understanding of where we each come from. But once you explain that, this is just somebody's hardwiring, this is their DNA. This person is wired to be optimistic and charismatic. And you know what's great about it? Yes, they can miss some opportunities. But you know what's great about it, they believe in you more than you believe in yourself. And don't you want to surround yourself with people like that? Wow, totally different perspective.

Leighann Lovely 19:37

You sound like, this is terrible. what I'm about to say this You sound like a marriage counselor. You sound like my marriage. But it's totally and completely true. You especially when you become really comfortable. For instance, you've been at the same company for a really long time. You know, your coworker you think you know, your coworker or you know, a friend or you, because this happens in human? You know, I've gone back to the marriage because I've been with the same man now for, you know, 10 plus years, right? I assume that I know what he's thinking, that immediately creates conflict. Because the assumption that I know what he's thinking, when he says something to me, is wrong. It's automatically wrong. Because that leads to if he doesn't mean that, and I act on that, then he looks at me and goes, What are you doing? And then I get defensive, right? That is the exact same thing with any other relationship, if you jump to a wall, and that's why I assume, you know, makes an asset to you and me, right? Because, and that. So, so this, you know, in any, in any working situation, if you if you get comfortable, and you start to assume that you know, what people are thinking, or you assume that somebody should act, the way that you act, because that's the only thing that you know, and a lot of people think that that until I really started to get more emotional intelligence and read all of those books and start to, you know, have a better understanding that not everybody thinks the way that I think kind of went Oh, right, because everybody's different. Everybody thinks uniquely, everybody processes information differently, just because I heard it, you know, the same person say something and I processed it in a positive way. Doesn't mean that the other person processed it in a positive could have been like you just said, a skeptical way. So it's, it's, I mean, I can imagine how valuable it is to become aware that you know, of how your coworkers process and understand information. Because on a daily basis, people get ticked off people even driving, somebody cuts you off, you assume that they knew that you were there, right? You assume that they did it on purpose. Nine times out of 10, it was an accident. They didn't mean to do it, because nobody goes out on the road maliciously trying to say, I'm going to piss everybody off on the road today.

Tatyana St. Germain 22:32

Yeah, and assumptions. lead to the wrong conclusions. Typically, like you said, and usually we don't assume to the positive, we always assume for the negative, especially with respect to us, okay, somebody's out to get us. Somebody's trying to do something to me. And Steven Covey's Seven Habits mentioned this, I think it was in the sixth habit. I can't recall right now which one it is, but his story about being on the subway train late at night, he assumed that these kids were running around because the Father and the Father was just too bad parent wasn't controlling. But it turned out that they were coming home from the hospital. And the father didn't know how to handle it, because they just lost their mother. Right? You, it takes practice. And the first thing I recommend when I do coaching, my coaching practice, I recommend that leaders or anybody really who I work with, they need to start to observe themselves and catch yourself. That's the first step. Don't try to fix everything. Don't try to stir the ocean. Let's just be more mindful and observant of your own assumptions, and how you react to different stimuli. And then pause, and then ask yourself, is this an assumption? And if it's an if it's an assumption, you say, yes, it's an assumption, I really don't have all the information, you have two options. You either drop it and take things at face value. Or if you really need to know what's going on, what's the intent behind whatever the person did or said, ask them. They'll be passive aggressive, just ask them. You did this, but I don't understand what's behind it. Could you tell me more? being observant of yourself is really a powerful experience. And it took me a long time to get to that point. But I recently experienced this that when you're in that mode, where you observe yourself and you pause and give yourself space and time to catch the assumptions. It makes you less pissed off. When people something that would normally take you off. For example, we were coming home or four of us with the kids. We landed midway, we came home from Florida. It was kind of slow Meeting raining, cold, snowing, whatever it was, it was nasty outside. And the bus driver who took us to the to the parking lot refused to stop at where we parked. She said she's going to the deck to the parking deck. And it was it was literally for her. It was not a big thing. But she refused to stop and refuse even though she was going back by back there. She was not going to take us. She wanted us off the bus. She started screaming, get off the bus. And you know, I've never seen my kids were angry. My, my husband was angry. And he's usually pretty, you know, pretty chill. And all I could think of, yes, it's frustrating. But I thought, what if she lost a family member? What if her son was shot? What if like, we don't know what's going on, and she literally lost, she lost it in that moment. And she was not going to give us any customer service. And yes, we could have taken the number of the bus and her whatever. And, but I felt that piece. Well, my entire family. It was just we were walking her to walk through the snow, sleet to the car. I observed the three of them feel me. And then halfway home, they were fuming about this. But I felt like it really. We were all healthy. We're all together. And we don't know what caused her to lash out like that. Could she just be a major? Bad person? Yes, yes, absolutely. But it has nothing to do with me. And I choose not to take it personally. And I it was such a revelation, I was just at peace. And if we could do this at work, can you imagine what we could accomplish? Then you're productive, because when emotions start to take over, the rational brain shuts down, right? You literally don't hear it's been proven by studies that you can put somebody could be telling you something, and you think you hear you, you cannot repeat what was said, right? Because the heat is rising, and you don't. So emotions, feelings, all of that I deal with with this in my coaching practice, of course. But it all starts with self awareness. And self awareness cannot happen without either decades of self learning and self reflection. Or we can skip decades and squeeze it down to an hour and you take PST select and learn everything you need to know.

Leighann Lovely 27:51

You know, and it's and it's so interesting that because it's really interesting when you said that when emotions take over that you don't hear anything? And how often do we find ourselves in situations with our children, for instance, you talk about your family. And first of all, you know, that's an amazing, it's amazing that you, you know, to be able to be in that situation and to be able to allow your rational brain to stay in charge. Because it's it's not easy, especially when you have your family there. And trust me I struggle with that when it's when it comes to my family. You know, it's very hard to keep those emotional, you know, checks and balances. Because you feel that Mama Bear COME OUT, right? You feel that protective. It's sometimes a little bit easier when it's, you know, in a business situation where you're like, Okay, you're not, but family. So I applaud you for for staying level headed. But yeah, you know, I always say to my husband, like you're getting me to the point where I'm going to see red, I'm going to shut down, I'm going to, you know, like don't push me or not even my husband, it's usually my daughter. You know, she's at that age, she she actually turned five yesterday. But she's at that age where she pushes and pushes and pushes and pushes and I'm staying calm, and I'm staying calm, and I'm staying calm. And all of the sudden it's that snap where you're just like, oh my god, like get get away from me, you know, and then I have a puppy who's also and you stop, you stop the logical thinking and the emotion completely takes over. And we'd like to think that that doesn't happen at work. You're level headed, you're logical, but you can't you can't separate we we've, we've learned I've had this conversation now multiple times. We've learned that we are not robots. We don't walk into work and drop baggage. We don't walk into work and flip a switch and now we're either now we're the professional person. We are ourselves our whole person. No matter where we are, and yeah, for years and years and years, we've seen people pretend that they could go to work and become this professional human being and nothing bleeds over. And we've seen a society of people who've just burnt themselves out trying to do that, right. So the only alternative is to try to understand other human beings and be there for each other. So these assessments are awesome in trying to, to get there. What happens however, when you have, then this is probably a more difficult, but what happens when you have a manager? Who's I guess, more blind to this information? Do you deal? Yeah, believing? Don't believe in it? Or I mean, do you deal with organizations when it comes to coaching through that?

Tatyana St. Germain 31:09

This is actually a one of the most popular questions in my coaching conversations. What do you do when a leader who needs development doesn't think they need development? So they look in the mirror, and they see perfection, right. And the reality is, it's a rotten apple. That's what everybody else sees. This, this is why we have 360 degree evaluation tools. This is a wake up call for those leaders, as long as this leader is not the one who's holding the purse strings and approving contracts and budgets, right. Because then they think that they don't need development, nobody else needs development, and they're not going to participate, and they're not going to approve, then they're not a client, they're not going to be a client, right. But if we get a chance to work with them, and they do participate, this usually comes out of left field for for them because they're not self aware. But this is the feedback. That's truly a gift, because they need to understand that this is what's really going on, here's the reality. And yes, 360 tools are based on perception, because they tell us, we ask direct reports, we asked peers, clients, bosses, everybody around this leader, including the leader themselves, how they perform on different leadership competencies. And so they get feedback, they get scores, they also get comments, and then we build a development plan for them. And every leader has room for improvement, and for development. So this type of feedback can be difficult, especially for those who never took the time to be self reflective, or self critical, or be aware of how they might show up at work. They may have great skills, but they don't have the people skills, or they don't have the the soft skills, they don't have leadership skills to accomplish what they need to accomplish. Maybe they're a great technical person, but they they're not a great communicator. And so it comes out. And typically when a when we have a leader like that, who's not self aware, they get, let's say, kind of mediocre or bad feedback. Sometimes this feedback can be harsh, because comments are open, and they are anonymous. But they can get pretty nasty. And it's amazing what people do. Just think of what people do on social media, when they're when they're protected by anonymity. So some of that culturally, we It seems like unfortunately, it it spills into the professional world. And I see more and more a 360 feedback with those anonymous comments be quite personal and nasty and not professional. But this is the type of stuff this leader is evoking and other people that kind of feelings they're bringing up and other people and it's not productive, and they need to know that. So all feedback is a gift. And that's how I start the conversation. The next option is for this leader to say, well, people are just stupid. I worked with a German engineer. And this is I know, stereotypical, but he was truly he traveled from Germany, from their office in Germany to me to rural Tennessee to manage a team of engineers. So if they're all engineers, but he's from Germany, and he's having an issue with culture, language, everything else potentially. And when he gets gets this feedback, and it's not, not good, lots of room for improvement, some good things, but a lot of he focused on the paper Of course, and he's in, we start to work through it. And he goes, well, people are just stupid. And I don't disagree because i want i Feelings are messages from our brain, feelings and emotions, and you cannot ignore them. If you put them in a little box in the closet, you know how people say we're compartmentalize, it's the worst thing you can do, because at some point, that's going to be a big explosion. And it's going to not just be an exploding closet, the whole house is gonna go down. So you need to acknowledge these emotions and feelings. And so I don't start to fight with somebody when they say, Well, this is this. Yeah, sure. Okay, let's assume you are correct. And people are stupid. And I've been in those shoes growing up, I thought everybody was stupid. Honestly. So and it was extremely irritating to me. And, frankly, because I'm like, I can't have friends, I cannot have an intelligent conversation with anybody. And at that time, I was five. So it was really difficult for me. And I worked through so I knew exactly what he was coming from. They said, You know what? I'm with you, buddy. Let's, let's assume they're stupid. What's next? What are you going to do with this information? We try different ways. And he's still good. It's he was very dismissive of this feedback. And then finally would make the difference. Because I asked him a question that he could not kind of could not not connect with. I said, Do you want to be effective in this role? Because I said, sounds like you. You don't need to be in this position. People are stupid, you hate this. So we're at an impasse, right? What? Of course, coached plenty of people out of their jobs. And he goes, Well, no, why not? Do you want to be affected? Well, of course. So that was his motivator. And then he got over the hump. He's like, Okay, let's take things at face value. It is what it is, what you got, this is what is, so let's deal with it. Not because you need to be everything to everyone, not because you need to compromise your values, not because you need to change who you are, you need to just change what you do to be more effective to achieve what you want from life and business. And that's what typically resonates with most people. They don't want to take assessments or go through coaching programs, because it's an IT they feel it's going to be an attack on who they are. And my approach, and the tools I choose to use in my practice are different, they measure the uniqueness of who you are. So that together, we can craft your unique path to what you want. And you're going to do it the way you need to you need you will, you don't change, I don't believe people change. There are certain things that are wired in our DNA. It's the hard wiring in the brain. And it's it's set, it's pretty much set, it's not. You can learn new things, you can acquire new skills, you can learn strategies, almost despite yourself, but at your core. And I'm going to change what that DNA is your core is your starting point. And it's important to know because you cannot get go from A to point B without knowing point A. And so that's these assessments, all types of evacuations, they really help us get grounded in not only who we are, but what's our departure point. And then from there, we can say, okay, based on what I'm comfortable with, this is how and what I can do. And then it becomes authentic. And if you're doing something to improve yourself, that's authentic to yourself, you're honoring yourself, well, then you're gonna continue doing it. That's a more sustainable path to improvement, versus trying to do something that's hard because you read a book, right? Well, they did. So I'm gonna do it. Don't ever compare yourself to other people, because you're always comparing your worst self to their best self. And that's unfair. To extremely unfair to so well, I'll get off my soapbox, if you have another question.

Leighann Lovely 39:20

No, I just I was very intrigued. Kind of you sucked me in on that. On that example? I mean, and I find I find it very amazing that there are some humans out there that are willing to take the information, you know, consume that, and then, you know, by the end of it, you're able to get them to understand that this is not an attack on them. That it truly, you know, and yeah, you know, that some people can be mean, and, you know, counterproductive by some of the things that I'm sure that they say on this evaluation when they're when they're giving feedback. And it's unfortunate that you know, but again, they the people giving the feedback are also human right. And this is also a way for them to finally say something that they need to say. And they need to get off their chest, but the people who are getting that feedback, if they're able to finally consume that, and then move forward from that, and thrive and do well, and change that behavior to to thrive in their position. I mean, that that's, that's amazing, though, I mean, and what a what a role for, for you to be in to watch that person, you know, bloom and thrive and, and do well, you know, in that role, and if they can't, hey, there's, there's a million other positions out there, where maybe, you know, being a people leader is not, is not the right role for them. But, you know, to have that insight, I mean, I, I wish that I could have the insight from every single person that I that I meet, to be able to understand myself better. I mean, because I would prefer, if I'm doing a horrible job somewhere, that that my manager were to sit me down and say, Okay, here's what I need for you to change. And here's my constructive criticism to you, not because I want to be malicious, but because I want you to be a better human going forward. But that is a really hard conversation for leaders to have. And that's what struck, that's the thing that's I struggle with the greatest is that. Why is it so difficult to have that conversation as a leader, and if you can't have those conversations, you shouldn't be a people leader. I mean, there should

Tatyana St. Germain 41:54

Conflict avoidance, and this is one of the traits actually that we've we measure a lot of people, they will actually there could be two possibilities. Everybody has their own story in their own reasons. Again, we don't want to assume, but what I typically observe is it could be that it's innate to them, it's in their DNA. And we can measure this with PX T. And they're highly accommodating, so they don't like conflict. And so they will find every possible which way to avoid confronting somebody a hold accountable, because they think it's going to cause conflict. They don't know what but they think, and another thing is just pure laziness. They just maybe they're disengaged, they're not in this role, long term, they're not fully bought it bought in mind, they don't really want to have this conversation.

Leighann Lovely 42:46

And that's sad, because if you if you're going to truly be, you know, a person, a people leader, a servant leader, along with that comes having to have the hard conversations, right? I mean, you're gonna have to have your, eventually you're gonna have to fire people, eventually, you're, you're good, you have to hire people, you're gonna have to sit down, and you're gonna, if you want to truly help people, you know, grow and develop, you're gonna have to have hard conversations. You know, today, your work was mediocre. Here's how you can be better. You know, today, this happened. I have always throughout my career, I appreciated the leaders who sat me down. And when you can't do that, I remember, years and years ago, I dropped an F bomb in front of this was many, many years ago, but I dropped an F bomb in front of a wildly religious coworker. And immediately my manager came to me sat me down and goes, you can't say that at work. And I was like, Oh, my God, did I did I say that? He's like, Yeah, and you need to go immediately and apologize. And make sure that you just watch your language in the future. And I mean, and I was embarrassed, like, I was so embarrassed. But he didn't like push it off. He didn't, he was straightforward. You can't see this word at work. I mean, this again, words now have become so much more. You got to you know, you go to a event, and people are saying every which it's the words are so colorful now. But anyway, I was like, wildly embarrassed. I was just like, I can't believe I did that, you know. And I went over to the coworker, and I said, you know, I really apologize. I did not mean to swear, and I know that you're, you're very, you're very religious. And that was my fault. And but I appreciated that. It didn't take a day. It didn't take a week. It didn't take a month for my manager to come to me. It literally took like 10 minutes from me doing that to my manager coming to me and saying, Yeah, don't do that again. Oh, right. Yeah, I won't do that again. He was one of

Tatyana St. Germain 44:59

Just-in-time feedback is something that's become very popular. A lot of leadership training programs talk about this, I talk about it whenever I get a chance. With a new generation in the workplace, you know, younger millennials and generations here, especially, if you wait until the next review cycle, they're not even going to be with your organization anymore. I mean, they leave at the drop of a hat, right? So then you need to provide just in time feedback. And based on my, my work, and my experience with measuring people in that particular trait, managerial courage, only 16% of the population is wired to speak the truth to have this kind of courage, despite the potential for conflict or defensiveness, or any kind of pushback, the rest of the population, and the general population that's not just leaders are kind of more flexible with that they're less inclined, if you will, to handle situations just in time. And of course, it does escalate. So there are strategies even for conflict averse leaders that they can implement to provide just in time feedback. And it starts with setting clear expectations on the front end. So if you know that you're not going to tolerate and you don't want to perpetuate a workplace where certain language is tolerated, we'll go ahead and talk about this expectation on the front end, right, right. So then it won't feel like conflict or some or you coming down on somebody or out of left field, when you have to hold people accountable to that standard. you've communicated that to them, right. And it's a little more palatable for leaders who are less inclined to kind of get get you straight between the, between the eyebrows and shoot you straight and some points, to be honest, some of them can be like a bull in the china shop, they don't pull back at all. And they take it to the extreme right. And they're always picking on people. So there's always extreme sides to every every trait.

Leighann Lovely 47:11

Yeah. Yeah. And again, approach I mean, it's not like this manager came to me and was like, it didn't yell at me, just pulled me aside was like, hey, you know, yeah, FYI. Okay, don't do this. Oh, right. Of course. Yeah. You know, and again, a great leader, somebody who was, you know, in the trenches. Not only was he a great leader, he was the owner of the company. And, and I felt comfortable enough that when he came to me, I didn't feel picked on I didn't feel like he was, you know, calling me out came to the company, you know, came to me and said, Hey, I don't tolerate this. Great. My apologies. Won't happen again. You know, I mean, there's, and there's different approach. And you're right, there are certain leaders that, you know, every time there approaches can be a little intimidating. But, you know, well, we are, we are coming to time, this has been such an amazing conversation. And I could go on, and go down so many different paths with you on this, but to get into the retention piece and get into so many other things. But I want to ask you the question of the season. So the question of the season, if, or, actually, what would you change about your job, or the practice that people have in your job if you could, or in your role?

Tatyana St. Germain 48:42

What I would love to change about my job is has less to do with me more with everyone that I work with, and it's a cop out. But here's what I mean, I, I'm glad to see that due to COVID more organizations are focusing on people. I would like to see more investments, time, and money needs to be invested by individual people, by parents in their high school kids, and by organizations in people. We have to know each other better, we're so disconnected. There's so much noise, so much information, we need to understand ourselves, we need to be more self aware of who's aware of others, and we need to have real conversations, real human conversations. And so whatever with that respect, what I would change for myself, is spreading this message more forcefully. In fact, I changed I put this song in my on my website at the very top. Imagine a world where people love to come to work. So if you asked me 10 years ago, I would have said that's super cheesy. And now I challenge people close your eyes and get beyond the cheesy. And imagine the world where people, every single person loved what they do. Can you imagine the impact on society, economy, productivity, overall happiness, stress relationships at work outside of work, everything, we spend majority of our lives at work, waking hours at work. And if you don't love what you do, it's corrosive, toxic, and it's not serving you because you lash out at people you love at the end of the day. Yep. So if I can contribute in a small way to that world, and I can partner with organizations, and provide them with these tools, so that those organizations can help contribute to building that world, and put the right people in the right positions, have real conversations with them, develop them, help them, help them be fulfilled. That's, that's really my passion. And I think that this was a really a turning point. And that's what I'm changing and continued to change will started last year and into this year, I'm going to be a little more more proactive in spreading that message.

Leighann Lovely 51:17

And that's awesome. And that's what this podcast, you know, the reason I started this podcast in the first place was because we're human, and if we connect as humans, maybe that is, you know, a push towards, you know, having conversations that will create us to connect even more, my fear is that the more advanced technology becomes, the less we connect as humans, and people keep saying, but the technology is how we're staying connected. But I see people taking a walk, staring at their phone. Whereas when I grew up as a child, we would be on a walk all, you know, talking and hanging out. And you know, this reminds me of that, that movie, were all the boys, you know, what was that movie? The it doesn't matter. You know, we rode our bikes everywhere. We never, you know, it was constant interaction communication. It was never phone and playing Pokemon staring at us. And yes, technology is connecting us in a remote world of where we were banned from leaving our homes, but it's continuing. We can now be in public, and yet, we're still meeting on Zoom. So I fear that we are going to have to intentionally, very intentionally have to make sure that we stay connected as humans because there is a difference between talking on the Zoom like we are today than sitting next to each other in a coffee shop and having a real human conversation. So I you know, I throw that out there because I want people to remember that true connection. You know, being in person has a different feeling. Anyways, if somebody is interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about contacting you?

Tatyana St. Germain 53:30

A couple of ways. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So look me up Tatyana, St. Germain. I think I'm the only Tatiana St Germain and LinkedIn. But I may be wrong, but I think I am. And you can also go to my website and find a bunch of connection links there. To my LinkedIn to my YouTube channel and the email. Great people management.com Is the website luring people management.com or email, you can send an email either to Tatiana at correct people when.com Because great people do win. or discover how at great people when.com

Leighann Lovely 54:15

Excellent. And that'll be in the show notes. Again, thank you so much, Tatiana, for the amazing conversation. You have a wonderful day.

Tatyana St. Germain 54:23

Thank you so much. Leighann

Leighann Lovely 54:25

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Information

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/tatyanastgermain

Website - greatpeoplemanagement.com

E-mail - tatyana@greatpeoplewin.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, leader, assessments, person, conversations, organizations, question, feedback, assumptions, conflict, information, measure, human, tools, coworker, development, coaching, manager, tatiana, hiring

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This is an eye-opening conversation with Robbie Reck a seasoned recruiter and owner of a boutique executive recruiting firm. Things in the world of staffing are constantly changing but it never makes the job easier, conversation with hiring managers and businesses continue to get more complex as does navigating the ever-changing wage battles and so much more. Join us for another great episode!

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

I have a great guest joining me today, Robbie Reck. He is the founder of Kilbourn Marshall, a boutique executive recruiting firm right here in the Milwaukee market. His firm specializes in finance, sales and C-level searches nationwide, especially confidential ones, his primary client base is privately held, or private equity owned companies with either headquarters or a location here in the Wisconsin market. I'm really excited to talk with him today. You know, there's no one that knows the pains, that employers are feeling better than, you know, people who are in the thick of it. And I'm really excited to hear from him.

Leighann Lovely 01:54

Robbie, thank you so much for joining me today.

Robbie Reck 01:57

Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 01:59

Why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Robbie Reck 02:03

Alright, so since the audience is business owners and HR professionals will skip to the part where I got into recruiting. So that would be January of 2011. So I am just about to hit 12 full years in recruiting. My degree was in finance. So automatic isn't. So I'm proud badger. But I only spent about a little less than four years doing finance itself. I was in a rotational program at Brady. So I did, I supported a sales and marketing team from finance standpoint, a distribution team tax, which was out of my ballpark. And then internal audit. So I finished the rotational program early that I supported an r&d team directly, or oversaw about $40 million in spend across the world, so that was that was the US, Europe and Asia. And then I also indirectly supported our mergers and acquisitions. I made it through the recession in 2008, without getting laid off. But really quickly saw how brutal It was to be on the other side of the desk. And, you know, the folks that were above the line or below the line on those layoffs, I mean, that that's those are bumbled decisions. And from one day to the next, those decisions change, depending on how we're looking at numbers. So I knew that I never wanted to be in that situation that I saw so many folks in and I've published articles on you know, about this, and how that really shaped how I got to, you know, be in the position I'm in today. But ended up I tried to start a company back in 2010. That failed miserably. I thought it'd be easy to run a landscaping business in when people did not have disposable income. That was a terrible decision. Learn from that. But I essentially had to tuck my tail between my legs, coming back to corporate America, where when you leave to start your own company, I really did feel like I was blacklisted. You know, I think everyone wants that entrepreneurial spirit. But when you actually are willing to leave and you show that there's so much fear in in hiring you back into a finance function. So I went to an executive recruiter sat down with them was looking for a finance job at the time. Like I said, tail tucked in between my legs, super modest, super humble at the time, and ended up being asked if I wanted to actually help people within finance and accounting find their next jobs and I had done sales as an internship and I was very successful at it. Top 15 in the country when I was in college for a really well known sales, internship, great training, you know, phenomenal training. But that was door to door business to business sales. That was That was brutal. But that's so I got into recruiting in January of 2011. When, at the time, we were still like a skeleton crew, there was not a lot of hiring, happening yet in 2011. And, you know, I was I was able to kind of ride that wave of the candidate market getting tighter and tighter and tighter. And honestly, it did that until the pandemic hit. Yep. That then 10 million people got laid off. And I had people crying on the phone, just saying, How do I get through this? You know, how do I keep my job safe? I think we all you know, instinctively know instinctively know what, what to do to keep our job safe, to the extent that we can. But then once we and I don't know if I would say we recovered from the pandemic, but I mean, that pendulum swung back incredibly hard to the candidate side. And there's so much leverage on the candidate side. Now, it just went back to what it was pre pandemic, and it's only continuing to get tighter. So, you know, I've just seen this, you know, continual contraction of the candidate market. And I'm based here, I'm based in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So most of my clients are here.

Leighann Lovely 06:33

So something that you said, first, you know, a recruiter, not 12 years in the industry. It's Bobby. Yeah, yeah. So most recruiters, you know, that know, you would say, your your life or you're never gonna get out. And even if you try, even if you try to get out, you will, you will somehow be sucked back in. And it's just, it's just the nature of the industry. Once you get sucked in, and you become successful at it. There's no turning back. There's no way to get out. I've tried to leave. I can't. Yeah, I always somehow end up back in where I started, and I started. Well, I would date myself, you know, I've gotten almost 20 year I started almost 20 years ago. So

Robbie Reck 07:16

So is it because it's lucrative? Is that why people say that?

Leighann Lovely 07:19

I don't know. No, because when I started, it was not necessarily lucrative. I mean, if you think what, almost 18 years ago, I walked into a manpower with the same thought of can you help me find a job? And they said,

Robbie Reck 07:34

So you had, you had a similar like, start to how you got into recruiting how you volunteer? I was yes,

Leighann Lovely 07:39

I was actually going to school at that time for computer programming. And I walked in and they said, Well, why don't you come and work for us while you go to school? And I thought, okay, but this was, this was a light industrial manpower. Okay, so this was not a professional manpower. This was a out in middle of nowhere. You in a little tiny town. Well, you would know what it is. And, you know, most of my listeners are gonna die. Um, no, it was in Watertown. You know, Wisconsin, and, you know, not like it's by the big city or anything. It's right smack dab in between Milwaukee and Madison. So it's pretty much know, where, and they should

Robbie Reck 08:20

So hard to recruit they're,

Leighann Lovely 08:21

oh my God, it was horrible.

Robbie Reck 08:23

Because it's a it's in between two candidate pools. And no one was neither candidate pool wants to drive the 45 minutes to get there. Yeah, right. Like, there's that and then same thing in between Milwaukee, Chicago, pleasant prairie is incredibly tough to recruit for, right?

Leighann Lovely 08:37

So they come work for us and and I got my first taste of who I get to help these people. These people come in, desperate to find a job and I get to help them I get to, and then they get, they come back. And they're like, so grateful. And so it's in the beginning, it wasn't about it wasn't about the money, because what I think I was making, like, at that time, I mean, it was like $12 an hour, which was no, remember, this was 18 years ago. And I thought, Wow, I'm doing a pretty good job. You know, I'm making some decent, you know, I can pay, you know, my, my rent was 435 a month. I mean, like, Danny myself, yeah,

Robbie Reck 09:23

I remember having I remember having a one bedroom that was $500 a month and then when I started this business, I had to go so in 2018, I went from a one bedroom apartment down to a studio to make sure that I would have enough money so that I could actually stay you know, in a position where I didn't have to go back and work for someone again, because I just had no idea. Would my clients follow me after a one year non compete? But ya know, that's, oh, man. I lived on Prospect. Prospect Avenue for years in the like, $500 a month. You know, one bedroom Was that now there? I think they're right. You can't touch that.

Leighann Lovely 10:04

Right? No, you can't. Even my little tiny I mean, this apartment was was itty bitty. I mean, it was. But so no. But now it's now you get into recruiting. And I mean, you're talking about some of the salaries just for a professional recruiter. I mean, it's insane. So it is because everybody knows and understands the struggles now, they're starting to get some of those struggles to find hire. Because it's, and correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a time where, you know, you could apply online for a position and there was only five, maybe four people who applied. Now, there are hundreds of people applying to these positions electronically, that aren't qualified. And it takes, yeah, it takes that employer, they don't even have time to go through it. So instead of paying in stead of paying the cost of having that they just go to a recruiter and say, just do it for me, hand me somebody who meets the qualifications. Interview them. And you know, but there's also problems with that, that I'm sure we'll get into here in a second. But before we do, so you started with a company recruiting. And now, fast forward and how long has it been that you've been out on your own with Kilbourne martial.

Robbie Reck 11:45

So I started Kilbourn Marshall in October of 2018. So, we've, we've passed the four year mark. And we're working on our fifth year, but you know, it was 2019 was a noncompete. Year, so didn't do didn't do much business 2019 2020 ended up being a banner year 2021 was a little bit slower, but then 2022, blue 2020 out of the water. So it's one of those things where, like, you just don't know what the market is going to hold. Because I like going into the pandemic I had closed, I think I closed a deal in January a deal in February, and I had like, 50 grand in Billings, through two months. I was like, Alright, this is it's a decent start. You know, I'm on track for you know, what, 300 that year? And I was like, Okay, I'm, I'm happy with where I'm at. And then the pandemic hit, essentially, like, well, I'm talking, like, I called my clients on St. Patrick's Day, and said, Hey, are we still good? Every single client said, Yes, we're good. This is not going to impact anything. And within a week, I had no more searches, I was worried they just the faucet turned off in a week. And luckily, it turned back on six weeks later, for me, at least for what I do. But But I had to pivot. So we talked about how my degree was in finance from 2011 to 2018. I did nothing other than finance and accounting searches in the Wisconsin market. So that was that was the only those are the only searches that I could do. I had done some sales searches, but it was really like internal. So I had I had placed a rookie of the year for us when I was at one company, and then I placed another guy who is now if he's not the top sales recruiter, at my last firm in the country, he's top three. And he's bringing in over a million dollars a year. And he had never, you know, these folks hadn't recruited in the past. But I never wanted to put my name on folks in sales, because I was so worried because I knew from my finance background, that 40% of salespeople get fired every year. And as a as an executive recruiter. So the way that I do business, I want 95 to 100% of my placements to be there five years. Right. So I'm not looking for, you know, 90 days, you know, getting through the guarantee period. I want candidates and clients going into every relationship, eyes wide open, knowing good, bad and ugly about each other. Right. And if one of them walked, if either party wants to walk away, I just want to walk away. And I like I'm very, very clear with candidates and say, Hey, like if this is not the right fit for you. My job is then to go find someone else that feels like it's the right fit. So I tell candidates, I'm not going to sell you sell the company to you, and I'm not going to sell the candidate to the company either. I'd like my job, in my opinion, is to make introductions, and if there's not a good fit there, I need to go out and find more introductions to me. ache, I don't want to. I don't want to force anything, because that's when you start getting folks that don't make it to their five year anniversary.

Leighann Lovely 15:11

Well, and that's the recruiter, that's the kind of firm that you want to work with. But it's got to be, you've got to find the right marriage on both ends, right? You've got to you got to make sure that one you're working with a company that gives a shit about the, by the people that they're hiring, otherwise, they're just going to continue to spit out employees, because employees are going to start there.

Robbie Reck 15:32

Yeah, And we're super low volume. So as a boutique firm, or I'm not doing I won't take on more than 10 searches at a time. So we, we will never be spread too thin. You know, I've been on teams where we've had so many job orders, and I've talked to recruiting leaders at not even competitive firms, but other you know, outside recruiting firms. I've got, I've got a buddy that had 15 recruiters made 1000 job orders. You just there was there's no way to be able, you know, those 15 recruiters to be assigned to? I don't, I think that comes out to you know, 60, 70 some, oh, I've ordered, you can't

Leighann Lovely 16:16

During my my heyday and you know when I was doing at one time I was with, and it's not it doesn't even exist anymore. I was with HR first it was a division of Kelly Services that I carried the highest rec load of I think I anywhere from 65, up to up to 75 racks at any given time. Yeah. And that

Robbie Reck 16:44

When did you feel like paralyzed like you didn't know what to work on first?

Leighann Lovely 16:47

No, but I was also the Energizer Bunny at this time. I, I was one of those people, because after I've, you know, I fell into recruiting, I switched my degree from computer program. And this was so I should have just finished it because I one class short of my associate's degree in computer programming, and I'm like, I'm not going to do it, I should have. But I so I switched my degree to my, you know, my bachelor's degree in business with an emphasis in human resource management. gunho, I took my work home, I went through all of my, you know, applicants at home. And then I knew the next day had come in Call, call call call set up interview, interview, interview interview. And, you know, I was actually recruiting for GE. And at that time, I didn't have to do a whole lot of sourcing at that time. So it was just interviewing and qualifying. And everybody wanted to work for GE and this was sensing FANTIC. These were all high level, you know, highly technical, you know, type roles. And my number one and this is the funny thing. My number one thing that I like to recruit for was salespeople.

Robbie Reck 17:54

Hmm, yeah. So that's where I was, that's where I was going with this is once the pandemic hit. My clients said, Hey, I don't care that you're my finance recruiter. We don't need people to cut costs. Right now, we've already done that. That was the that was the easy part. They're like, but I just lost 25% of my revenue 35, 45% my revenue, I need salespeople. And in my mind goes, like I said, I made that like those that 50, 50 grand in Billings going into COVID. In the first couple months, I thought I was going to have to kind of pivot to like outplacement helping executives that got laid off, like I thought that was going to be a possible pivot or at least an avenue. And then I ended up getting pulled into all of the sales searches, sales and leadership were the two things that that were needed. And, you know, during the pandemic, and you know, ended up having to work, you know, nights and weekends, I was probably putting in close to 80 hours a week, and, you know, for three straight months. And, you know, it was I was grateful just to have the business, to be honest. Because I just did there was so much uncertainty still, like early in, you know, 2020, like mid 2020, early in the pandemic just didn't know, when the music was going to stop. And you know, it really hasn't. I mean, I've seen you have such a tight labor market. I'm sure that's something that you want to know, a little bit. Well, what does that look like for employers?

Leighann Lovely 19:29

Yeah, it's I mean, and the question, I'm sure that you get you. I get anybody who's in the HR, the hiring the where are all the people, where are all the people? You know, I am, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, somebody asked me that question, especially if my husband's around. I'm like, somehow, I don't know, have an emergency and pull me away. I'm so tired of answering that

Robbie Reck 19:54

Well, it's somewhat of an easy answer to the demographics in the US. We just don't don't have, like everyone wants to continue to make the profits that were made when we had baby boomers. And millennials in the, in the job market, we just we don't we're losing, you know, pre pandemic, we were losing 10,000 Baby Boomers to retirement a day, right? And then a bunch of them took early retirement. So now, you know, and for every, every three, that three baby boomers that were retiring or leaving the job market, we only have one millennial, or Gen Z to replace them,

Leighann Lovely 20:35

Right? And they were expecting, they were expecting that we were going to have a baby boom, another baby boom. And we we didn't know. So you know, my girlfriend said it to me boss, she says Leanne, either the pandemic is going to create a whole lot of babies, or a whole lot of divorces. And I laughed at her and I said that. Right? I laughed at her. I said, Oh, no. And then I went, That's Oh, that that is probably really true, people are going to be stuck in their houses together. Yeah. And they're going to have to find a way to pass the time. So either they're going to have babies or cover your cover your kids ears, any parents who are listening. So either they're going to have babies, or they're going to end up really, really, really disliking each other in some way or another because you're stuck in your house. Like, what, you know, I can't wait to have my girl time and I love my family. But man after, you know, two straight days with them, I'm like, I want to go to work. I want you to go to work and I want you to go to school,

Robbie Reck 21:43

Absence, absence definitely makes the heart grow fonder. Yes. No, I'm, I'm a firm believer in space, and so in, in intentionally creating that space to make sure that you don't, you know, fizzle out,

Leighann Lovely 21:57

Right? It's about it's about mental health, and everybody needs to have an outlet that is only for themselves. It's, I mean, well, maybe maybe a five year old doesn't, but I'm sorry. I digress. Okay, so that question the Where did all the people go? It drove me crazy for so long, which leads me into, you know, this next kind of, you know, little tidbit or discussion, you know, employers, you know, come to have come to me have, I'm sure come to you and they want to be able to hire somebody, after somebody has left. They want to be able to hire somebody that is as qualified as the person who just left that position. And it does happen. But it is becoming more and more of a rarity to be able to hire somebody in those high level, those even sometimes mid level positions. Because during the pandemic, and even still, after the pandemic, we continue to have the highly skilled individuals because of age, often, many of them retired. I also saw many people become entrepreneur entrepreneurs, they had no other option of well, I've got to find a way to make money, I'm going to become an entrepreneur, I'm going to do my own thing. So we've seen all of these highly skilled individuals leave the market go out on their own. And so in now, employers are going well, no, no, no. I want to hire somebody who's got the same skill set as the person who just exited my company. Okay. Can you train somebody? Well, no, I don't have time for training. Yeah.

Robbie Reck 23:59

So I, I'll give you one. So just this week, I had a kickoff call. So we take anywhere from probably in a normal week, anywhere between one and three new searches on is a pretty average week for us. So we had one this week. And early early on in the call, I just shut it down. Because the the hiring manager described, yeah, I always asked, you know, what are the three things you need to see on a resume? And the first thing he wanted was direct experience from a competitor was like, Alright, no problem. How many direct competitors do you have within 50 miles? Oh, there's one. Okay. All right. I'm gonna do you have within 100 miles, there's two more. So there's a total of three companies. And I said, let me let me just stop this here. And I said, I'm, in the 12 years I've been doing this. I just don't. I stopped going out beyond 50 miles in terms of like a driving radius. was just not interesting.

Leighann Lovely 24:58

Was he willing to pay relocation?

Robbie Reck 25:02

Um, yeah, I think so. The other thing, but the other thing like I, I also don't relocate candidates, right? So that's, it just adds so much risk to the placement where like now it's not okay if, if that employee is doing they could be doing phenomenally well at their job. They love it, the employer loves it. But then now you have Okay, now, did that spouse not acclimate to the community? Did the kids not acclimate to the schools? And does that employee now have, you know, a spouse and kids in their ear saying, I just don't want to be here anymore, I want to move back to where our family is, I want to move back to our old community, because we all know, especially in this environment, when someone takes a new job, they're there, they're definitely going to get a counteroffer when when they put in their notice, if they're worth their salt, at all right, right, which is the people that I'm posting, right, right, I'm only working with passive candidates for the most part, I would say, as an executive recruiter, at five or more percent of our candidates are currently employed, we, we definitely have candidates who are in between jobs, but it's, it's the exception, not the rule. So they're gonna get a counteroffer from their current employer, and then once they start in their new job, that could that previous employer, as long as that job is still open, they are going to plant seeds in that old co workers head. And they're going to try to get them to come back. So I don't, I don't like to take the risk of relocating. So our ideal would be, you know, if we can find someone within 10 Miles Great. here in Milwaukee, like if it's a bigger candidate pool, people aren't going to go like, we typically don't go beyond 25 miles because it's about a 30 minute commute. But rural, this was a rural search. So I was willing to go up to 50 miles, and had to just shut this, you know, the conversation down really, really quickly. Because I said, I just don't think we can, we're gonna be able to deliver, if you only want to see candidates coming out of one company within 50 miles of you, I said, that's, you know, we'll grab enough calm enough information here. So that we can find the few folks that are at that direct competitor. And we will we'll go after them for the next three weeks. But can I get a commitment from you that three weeks from now, you answer my next question, which is, like if we can't find someone from our direct competitor that has that really niche experience, because this was a leadership role. This is, you know, six figure role. I think they were a number, probably a number two, or number three, you know, in the line in terms of, you know, highest level at that plant. And I said, I want to have a comment, I want a commitment from you for three weeks from now, to give me what I expect we're going to need is if we can't find someone from a direct competitor, what is that next person look like? Right? What can you work with? And what what does that profile look like, of someone who has potential that you would train? And he knows what that is? He wasn't willing to share it with me this week. So we'll you know, we'll we'll circle back in three weeks, because I just don't expect when we can only call on, you know, one company within 50 miles. I mean, I've done I've done jobs, I've done searches in Milwaukee, where there were legitimately 10 Total candidates that were qualified to do that job. And I was able to get three of those individuals to interview and placed one of them. But that those are those stories that you tell because they're exceptions like that. That is, I mean, you can't expect that to happen. Normally, so I try to be a realist and just say, hey, you know, if we can't deliver for you, I don't want you setting expectations that you you're going to see a lot of resumes from us because even in a normal search, my goal right now is one, two, and I'm probably a maximum of three candidates for an entire search. Because our filter is just so high we we go after such a targeted skill set and we we know how to ask the right questions, to know how you know how to target the right candidate and find that right mix of this is going to get us the right candidate, but it's not too it's not the parameters aren't too tight where we're not going to have any candidates that we can talk to. But, you know, even even when we get what we feel is a comfortable parameter for a search. You know, right now we're delivering usually two resumes, maybe a third. That's that's kind of what it looks like today in 2015, I would have been able to deliver a candidate slate of five in a week with ease, and I could commit to that.

Leighann Lovely 30:18

And what is your what is your response to that employer? When they say, when you've delivered this amazing candidate? They've interviewed, they come back. Yeah, I loved them. They were great. But we're not we're not ready to make that decision. Yeah, we're not we want to see more. Yeah, we want to see just maybe one or two more. Yeah. And you're relying

Robbie Reck 30:41

And you kown what? For the most part, I don't fight it too much. Because like I said, I don't I don't sell candidates to employers, and I don't sell employers to candidates. So if they are not ready to pull the trigger. I want I tried to respect that as long as I can. Right. But I do. I'm very clear with them that hey, if you want to wait, the risk is the candidate is going to move on? Right? The candidates have so many opportunities in the market today. Correct? Right? We're as as employers, everyone is fighting over scraps, right? We're, we're, we are the eight candidates today. We were calling the candidates three years ago. Right? Right. But we have to pay them like they're eight players.

Leighann Lovely 31:32

And it's and it's wildly frustrating when you know, because I I've been in your situation where I'm the salesperson going, No, you don't get it. This is the best candidate, I'm not holding back on you. I'm not keeping a better one in my back pocket. So that I can wow, you at the end. This is the best candidates. And they're like, Yeah, boss.

Robbie Reck 31:59

Yeah, most of my contracts are contingent base intentionally. So we'll do we'll do some money upfront, depending on the level of search, right? If it's going to be, you know, 150. and above, in terms of base salary, I'm probably gonna want some money down on that. But I try to stay away from pure retained searches, because it just adds stress. But I don't think needs to be there. Because I want clients to be able to walk away from us, and I want us to be able to offer from clients if, if it's not the right fit. So I, the majority of what I'm doing is contingent based, and partly so that I don't have to worry so much like if they, if they want to walk away from a candidate or let them die on the vine. Like that's, that's really their choice. And all I can do for the most part is say, hey, you know, I will let you know, as soon as that candidate has other opportunities, but even if they don't have other opportunities, you know, we've got a candidate right now where the candidate is truly the front runner in the search. But they interviewed, let's say, probably 45 days ago, they did their first kind of first and second interviews. And now they're going back in for their third, they're, you know, kind of like the onsite next step in the process. But we waited. And, you know, the client wanted to wait 3045 days to see what else was out there in the market as benchmarks. So now this candidate is still the front runner, but those 30 to 45 days turn into doubt. Right, so corral. Now we've got someone who's, you know, worried about, were they really not excited about me, because it seems like, you know, they were waiting for someone else, when in fact that the candidate has been the front runner the entire time. But you just never trust that. So, as recruiters, we can't even, we can't even say that because we know we're not going to be trusted. We just have to say, you know, hey, they are excited about you. You will we'll get you on the phone with them. So you can hear that's the other thing that we try to do is is not deliver any news ourselves. I want a candidate to hear from that hiring manager. how confident they are in them, right? So because hearing it from third party just does I mean, it just does nothing I wouldn't trust getting feedback through a third party. I want to hear it firsthand cuz I want to know, did their sound did their voice sound confident when they're saying what they said? Or was it trembling and were they struggling to like deliver and they believe what they're saying,

Leighann Lovely 34:44

well, and recruiters get a bad rap, because the managers one we have a certain recruiters and the salespeople the account managers have a certain amount of confidentiality that they have to hold on behalf of that company. They can't run back to the candidate and say A Well, they're just they're going to interview all of these other people so that they can match you up and see if they really like you and and make sure that you're still the front row. I mean, you can't you can't tell the candidate that you have to really be.

Robbie Reck 35:11

We try to be as transparent as possible. I, you know, we share with candidates way more than I think most people would be comfortable with and we share with with clients or with hiring managers, way more than most people would be comfortable with. What you're saying about confidentiality, we do a ton of confidential searches. And part of that is

Leighann Lovely 35:31

I was going to ask you that

Robbie Reck 35:33

We've got to, we've got a process where we feel comfortable. So even with despite how difficult it is to find candidates today, we feel confident going to the market without being able to say, this is exactly where it's located. This is the exact name of the client, or this is the exact sector that they're in and, and still deliver a candidate slate of that two to three candidates that are are all higher. So when I say two to three candidates, I mean, two to three candidates who deserve that job and are qualified and worth, you know, a 30% fee. Right, right, not not just a warm body. I would rather send zero resumes, than send someone who's off target for what we're going for

Leighann Lovely 36:23

Right, No. And I think that the majority of people who take pride in the work that they do, would rather send nobody, then send somebody who is going to, okay, yeah, you're lose me a client or lose a client, right?

Robbie Reck 36:39

Absolutely unwilling to violate the trust of a hiring manager by by not listening to what they said, Now, I will push as much as I can, during that conversation to say, hey, I don't what you're describing, I don't think exists. So we need to loosen those parameters, I will be very assertive at that point. But once we've come to an agreement as a hiring manager, and then us as the outside recruiting firm, once we've taken on that search, I am unwilling to say, you know, hey, we're, I'm just going to send this over. I know, it's I know, the candidate just does not have really good tenure. But you know, trust me, I just, I don't really, I'm not going to violate the trust of the hiring manager. If they've told me, Hey, I need a, b and c and a candidate only has D. And that's it, I would not be doing my job, right. And I would just get I would be fired, I wouldn't be able to represent that company, and open the doors for the candidates moving forward.

Leighann Lovely 37:44

But that's also a conversation that you have to have up front with. And I've had that conversation with multiple clients before of Look, you're saying that you absolutely need a, b and c. Now let me ask you a question. If I presented a case, or if I came up with a candidate that had a B, but was missing C? Are you telling me that that's 100%? off the table? And if they say Well, no, then it's like, okay, wait a second, we need to go back to square one. Yeah. So often, so often, all of a sudden, when you go, Yeah, they'll have a, b, and c, but what if they don't have the master's degree? They have the bachelor's degree with a certification, and then they go, Well, that would be enough. Okay, well, then we need to get clear on what you really want.

Robbie Reck 38:24

Yeah, and every search is dynamic, right? So I do think, you know, as, as candidates get into the process, and as hiring managers meet what the market bears, they can there, they might increase what they're looking for, right? They might say, Wow, I was really blown away by that candidate. Now, I want some of the things that they bring to the table that I wasn't even thinking of, and their list gets longer, unfortunately. Right. But, you know, and I guess now that I'm thinking of it, I don't really think that goes the other direction. But, you know, we do know

Leighann Lovely 39:02

No and that's missing. And that's not necessarily true, though. I've had I had a hiring manager telling me that for a customer service, position, customer service position, they were answering the phone and taking notes told me that this person had to have a bachelor's degree. Okay. And I'm like, and I mean, the salary, the salary was going to be like 45, or something like that, if that I mean, and it had to have a bachelor's degree, so 45,000 a year with a bachelor's degree. And I basically told them, it's never gonna happen. I'm not going to find a customer service person. Because if you look at the statistics on how many individuals nowadays have bachelor's degrees, that number is way below 50 percents and people coming out in the market right now. I mean, you know, you know that 50,000 years is like, it's like $25 an hour, people are demanding in $20 an hour to work at McDonald's or it's like 18 or something. So to say, 45,000 a year with a bachelor's degree. You can see my face, I'm making a face, but it's just not. It's just not feasible. So, you know, they're, you know, I had to go back and have a conversation and be like, sorry,

Robbie Reck 40:26

Yeah, well, we'll, we'll do that. But we will do that upfront, we're not going to do that by sending a candidate who's a stretch without saying, but like, I guess, if we're going to send a stretch candidate, we're going to say, right up front, hey, they don't have this thing that you mentioned. And save them the time of reading the resume, or the write up? If, if that is truly going to be a deal breaker. But usually, we're going to know what those deal breakers are, before we get out of it before we actually accept a search. And get out of that initial call. Yep.

Leighann Lovely 41:05

Yeah, no. And I, you know, my hope is that, obviously, I never want to put somebody in a job that they're not capable of doing. That is not my goal, as an interviewer, you know, as somebody who works in somebody who works to try to figure out how to help companies, hire, train, retain all of those things. However, I think that companies nowadays have to understand that we're not living in 2015 1617, eight. We're not in that world or in that market anymore. There has to be a new approach.

Robbie Reck 41:46

Yeah I haven't? I haven't seen that mindset really changed yet. So I think there is, I think there's lip service that it has changed, right, I think a lot of people will say that they understand how tight of a candidate market is and how the candidate has all the leverage. However, the behaviors that we still have, as hiring managers and companies, dates back to the 2008 recession, right? Where you had you truly had 500 people applying for jobs that were and you had 10 people that were highly qualified for what you wanted. And you just had, you could just pick one, right? So that that started getting tighter and tighter and tighter every single year since, with the exception of let's call it 12 monster in the pandemic. And then went right, you know, the rubber band snapped right back to where it was pre pandemic cracks. But yeah, we don't have we have not gotten to the point where employers have really said, you know, what, I can wrap my head around, that the B players that I used to consider as B players are now what the market is valuing as a players and I have to pay them at as such, that I hear them say that they understand it, but I don't really see that in terms of their behaviors and their attitudes yet. And it still could be coming out. You know, I've heard, I don't know if you've heard of the all in podcast, but a guy that I really respect by the name of Chamath talked through how inflation is was really like a three year cycle. So our first year was energy inflation. And we all saw that last year was the inflation of goods and services because of the energy inflation the year before right. Now, I think a lot of folks are thinking, Well, we do have a recession coming up. And you know, inflation is going to go away because of that. But his prediction is that we're going to have wage inflation as the third phase of the inflationary cycle. So energy inflation went down was replaced by goods and services, inflation. But now as goods and services start to decline in price, wages are going to just take up that vacuum in 2023. So I don't I'm interested to see how that plays out. Because I, you know, wages already went up on average 30, you know, from what I saw in the transactions we did last year 30 35%.

Leighann Lovely 44:36

And, and I felt like for a long time that there was going to be a balance on that. But since since, right, but since there is continually so many jobs open, and so few people quality, high quality, skilled people to fill those jobs. I'm now realizing it's not going to balance out because people are Still fighting to be extremely competitive and get, you know, those individuals to come and work for them. So I think now, now, I'm thinking No, there is not going to be a balance of wages right now. And I think that that prediction is right, that there's going to continue to be the inflation, you know, of wages. I mean, it's bizarre it is.

Robbie Reck 45:19

It's weird, because I started, like, I knew there was uncertainty in the stock market, at least starting almost 12 months ago, it was probably a March, April of last year, you know, I, there are enough people out, you know, speaking publicly that at something had to happen in the stock market and the economy. So, as a recruiter, I was kind of waiting for the the the other shoe to drop to drop in terms of layoffs hitting the Midwest, or the, you know, the US in general. And so far, a lot of those layoffs have really hit the tech sector, they've hit the coasts, they haven't hit the Midwest as hard yet. And that's really where, you know, the wage inflation pressure would be taken off is if if we have if we have layoffs, that'll take pressure off, because there's gonna be more candidates and the candidates won't have as much leverage. Correct and you never problem is in the Midwest. We're it's not a very service oriented workforce. It's a it's a manufacturing workforce. Right. And the, the need for those products, that demand is not really going anywhere yet.

Leighann Lovely 46:34

Right. You're right. I mean, we're we're majority of the manufacturing is still catching up to I mean,

Robbie Reck 46:46

There's untapped demand. You know, I've got clients that, you know, we'll sit down with and they'll say, I've got one to two years of backlog, correct. That I could take advantage of, if I can hire these enough folks to take advantage of it. But I can't even go after that business yet. Right. It's just, it's just built in demand. It's latent demand, potential demand, right? There's just so much business that could be done. And we don't have the workforce that can support.

Leighann Lovely 47:20

Think about the car industry. Think about the backlog on that. And I'd love to continue this conversation, because I'm, like, so intrigued in it. But I know that we are coming to time, and I want to respect that. So I have the question of the season. What would you change about your job or the practice that people have in your role?

Robbie Reck 47:38

Yeah, this is an easy one for me. So when I, when I started my own firm in 2018, I put in my contracts, and I thought this was going to be something that was going to be really impactful in the market was if I, if I take an employee, as a as an executive recruiter that you trust, I poached one of your employees after I play someone with you. Right, I thought that was a cardinal sin. And I still do. And we don't do that, as a firm, I don't do that. Personally, my, the people that work for me Don't do that. I thought putting it in a contract, I was going to be able to charge a premium for that. Because that's the biggest thing that I hear hiring managers complain about is, I have a relationship with a recruiter, and then eventually they violate that trust, and they steal someone from me. And when I when I put my money where my mouth was and said, Hey, if we ever do that, I'll just hand the fee that we earned to you to make sure that we're never incentivized. And that will never happen to you. And what I what, what shocked me in the market was our, our employers in the Wisconsin market here just didn't care enough. So they complain about it. But when it comes to, are you going to pay five or 10% more in terms of a fee? No, they're not going to do that. So that was that was an interesting test. But that would be the one thing that if we could take it away from the recruiting world, there'd be so much more trust in the recruiters that you use. And obviously, there's there's a lot of recruiters that are out there that have been doing this for, you know, 10 or 20 years that have that trust already built up, right. But the folks that are just getting into recruiting where they're, you know, three, six months in, they haven't built those relationships, yet. They have to deal with this stigma of some of the recruiters are bad actors. And because they weren't making them their numbers, they cut corners and took employees from their clients and violated that trust and loss or those accounts. But in some cases, they don't even lose the accounts. They just aren't trusted, and then they're, you know, now they don't have an exclusive relationship with that company anymore. Right? And then they don't have the trust. So that would be the biggest thing that I would change is Can we get some trust back into the, into the administration? Yeah, as a as an external recruiter, but, you know, all I can do is, you know, control that within our own firm and make sure that we never do that. But, you know, the more my the more my competitors do it, the easier it makes my job though,

Leighann Lovely 50:22

Right? Yep. Well, if somebody wanted.

Robbie Reck 50:24

Maybe I wouldn't want to change that.

Leighann Lovely 50:25

Right, more business for you. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Robbie Reck 50:34

Easiest thing. So Kilbournmarshall.com is easy. And then my email address is just Robert.reck@ Kilbournmarshall.com. And I owning the firm myself. You know, I respond on weekends, I respond, you know, very, very quickly. We've got an incredibly high sense of urgency when there's a need. So happy to help anyone out. That is, you know, maybe they don't trust the recruiter that they're using as much as they used to.

Leighann Lovely 51:08

Excellent. Well, hey, Robbie, I really appreciate the time that you took to talk with me. It's been a really awesome conversation. It could have continued talking for the next hour. But thank you so much.

Robbie Reck 51:19

Thank you. All right. Thank you so much.

Leighann Lovely 51:23

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact information

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/reckrobert

Website – kilbournmarshall.com

E-Mail – Robert.reck@ kilbournmarshall.com

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

candidate, people, pandemic, searches, recruiter, job, clients, employers, hiring, recruiting, market, year, finance, hiring manager, Milwaukee, trust, company, thought, executive recruiter, business

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Kellie Commons is an HR geek by her own admission and a very smart one at that. She has been in some of the toughest industries to staff and manage, in my opinion. From manufacturing to food and beverage she knows how to create an environment that people want to work in. She invests time in understanding people so that true relationships can be developed.

Leighann Lovely 00:20

HR professionals, Business Owners and Operations at all levels are struggling to figure out what needs to change. Our system has been shocked practices have been questioned, and conversations are finally happening. We all know there has been a huge shift in what people want. inclusion and diversity are common phrases. But often misunderstood generations are coming together more than ever on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about what's important for employees to be successful in life and at their job and how companies can create an environment to allow them to do both because successful people will make up a successful workforce. I'm Leighann Lovely. Let's get this conversation started.

Leighann Lovely 01:09

Another great episode coming to you today. I'm speaking with Kellie Commons. Originally from Milwaukee Kellie left Wisconsin for her undergrad at Purdue University and a job at in Kansas City, Missouri, but new Milwaukee was a place to raise a family after nearly a decade in manufacturing, and an MBA from Mount Mary Kellie returned to her hospitality roots to build human resource functionality for sasses Hospitality Group, and now is a senior HR business partner with Gail foods and beverage in Germantown. Small businesses and community involvement are her passion. So she works with a number of organizations in the area and volunteers with groups to help students grow like launch and teaches in the lumbar College of Business. At UW Milwaukee, Kellie was recognized in 2020 as a notable women in human resource by busy times media, she tries to be as avid with fitness as she is with reading and napping, and loves exploring the Waukee area restaurants Kellie lives in Wauwatosa with her partner Rob, who is an owner of venture brew company and her daughter, Anna, I'm excited to have this awesome conversation with a very amazing woman. So let's welcome her.

Leighann Lovely 02:36

Kellie, welcome. I am so excited to talk with you today.

Kellie Commons 02:41

Thanks so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:43

So Kellie, why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself and your background?

Kellie Commons 02:48

Sure, absolutely. I am currently a senior HR business partner with gale food and beverage in Germantown, Wisconsin. But I spent about the last seven years working for sasses Hospitality Group here in the Locky organization about 1000, folks, and I spent that time leading their HR team and building out HR functionality for them. I currently am teaching at UWS. I'm an adjunct in the Lubar college. I was previously teaching at Mount Mary University, which is where I received my MBA. So I find myself loving to talk about HR related topics, whether the listeners want to listen or not, which is sometimes the case of students. I live in Wauwatosa. I have a 16 year old, my partner owns a small business here that I tried to keep my HR nose out of.

Leighann Lovely 03:41

That's funny that you try to keep your HR you know, it's hard though, right? Especially when you're when you're, you know, an HR junkie.

Kellie Commons 03:50

Yes, there are times where I'm like, Are you sure you want to do that? Just that way. But you know, not my circus, not my monkeys.

Leighann Lovely 04:01

Right? Well, that's awesome. So, you know, it's really interesting. You you came from, you spent a lot of time at, you know, in the hospitality industry and now you've moved to, you know, something that's you've moved away from that. So I, I would love to talk about, you know, I guess the differences in sure where you you were to where you're where you are, I mean, that's two different animals.

Kellie Commons 04:30

Yeah, they, you know, it's kind of a little bit like the difference between a tiger and a mountain lion though they are different animals that share a lot of similarities. And this is a return to manufacturing for me. So I've kind of been on a seesaw for the last 15 years. My background in education isn't hospitality. But then I worked in manufacturing for almost eight years, and then came back to hospitality and now back in manufacturing, so I've had a great opportunity Just see those differences and the similarities. You know, one of the biggest differences is that it is easier for folks sometimes to understand a career path. In the manufacturing industry, it is a little bit cleaner and a little bit more acceptable to have a blue collar job. You know, hospitality jobs are often kind of the brunt of the brunt of the joke, right? Like you went to school, and now you're a barista or you're a server. So kind of the ability to attract and retain people is a little bit different on the manufacturing side, because it is more classically presented as a job you can have it's kind of end, but you can turn into, you know, a lifelong pursuit. Sometimes it's a tough sell for hospitality, folks.

Leighann Lovely 05:57

And why do you think that is?

Kellie Commons 06:02

I think historically, a lot of it is the perception of the financial availability in hospitality. You know, there are some hospitality jobs as servers and bartenders can make extraordinarily generous living, you know, with very flexible hours, and they're skilled folks. But that's not the perception unless you've been in it. You know, if you're a lifelong bartender, if you look at, you know, the tropes in TV and movies, you know, somebody's been a bartender for 15 years, it's the butt of jokes, you know, I think of Nick Miller, a new girl, right, like being a bartender was his failure job. And if he had worked a line in a manufacturing plant, it would have really changed the premise of the show, you know, I, but I think the commonality there is sometimes that they are, both industries are a difficult sell outside as prestigious or something to be aspired to, I'm really glad that we're seeing a shift in how we approach students pursuing post high school, that it's not that important to have that four year degree that briefcase life that you know that there are other options available for students for whom that isn't comfortable or attractive or aligned with their skill set. So we're seeing that crack open a little bit more and become more popular is not the word I want, but more acceptable, more featured in high school students to see them pursue technical paths, apprenticeship paths, instead of that, you know, pursuit of a four year degree that, you know, might make them end up as a barista, just to circle back around. So the difference really, I think, is how people perceive the industries. The earning potential, the skills required more than anything else.

Leighann Lovely 08:03

You know, what movie keeps popping into my head, as you're talking is, and this is, I'm gonna date myself here, but the movie cocktail, right? Yeah. I mean, he's was it. What's the actor, Tom Cruise, Tom Cruise is He's busting his butt to go to college. Right? And, and he's just, he's not making it, not making it. And then he becomes a wildly successful bartender. And then he falls in love with a woman whose family won't accept him because he is a bartender, they in the end end up together. And it's not by any means, like this perfect, you know, perfect straight path. But in the end, he gets to have a dream of still being a bartender, right. And I go back to you know, during my time of growing up, it was you have to have a four year college to be successful. But that's not that doesn't. That doesn't hold water in today's society anymore. Because there are wildly successful people. One of my best friends makes a amazing living as a server. She has people who come she has people who who would come in just to see her and sit in her section because they liked her.

Kellie Commons 09:25

And the thing is, it didn't hold water for the last 25 years either. Just right. We weren't really availed any other options. You know, it was the path that we were shown it was the picture that we painted for students, that was how employers structured jobs in so many cases where that it wasn't necessary, or maybe even meaningfully beneficial. You know, the number of roles I've heard over time where it doesn't matter what they have a degree in as long as they Start with something. Well, that's nonsense. You know, if somebody was in a progressive role for the last four years, and building skills and experience, that is that is equally valuable, it shows that same stick to itiveness. And I could be in school for forever, if you gave me unlimited funding, I'm still trying to crack a way to make money reading books and thinking about stuff and talking about ideas and writing papers, if I could do it, I would. Head is not like that I'm, I'm in the minority to love school, the school setting that much. That's not how a lot of people learn best, it's not accessible to them in that style. And that's great, you know, some of the most successful folks I know, regardless of their role, or industry didn't come along on that path. And they're extraordinarily successful, right. So it had trying to find paths and avenues, I work with the the program called Launch here locally in the Wauwatosa Ellenberg school districts that put students in opportunities on a variety of different industry related threads, strands not threads to be paired with a professional mentor, and solve a real life business problem and give them exposure to what things could look like on some paths that that could take you into a four year education. Or could take you into an apprenticeship or a technical program, and really get a feel for where your skills and strengths lie. And seeing more employers partner with organizations like that, and programs in that vein, to give students a more holistic viewpoint of what truly skills and education are available, and how you can gain those in ways that aren't necessarily, you know, spending more than $100,000. You know, the economics of underdeveloped countries in the history of rock and roll like there's, there's there's better way as I what I that's one of the things that I love about both hospitality and manufacturing, are that there are there's been a lot of attention to developing and displaying career paths within the industries and organizations that I've worked with, to show, this isn't a dead end job, you know, this, you're not going to stand on this line forever, that you if what you want is to learn and grow and expand within this company, or within this industry, there are our paths towards that.

Leighann Lovely 12:51

And I love what you just said that, that it within the industry, they are now starting to show that there are paths. And I think that that's where it's been lacking, you become a server, and there's nothing else that that's what you're gonna do from the time you start till the time that you end to that you're no longer there. And if there's if there's an actual path, because they've done a really great job of showing that when you're in this, you know, white color, you know, roll of here, you know, here's where you begin, here's where you can go. But that's not necessarily what happens with everybody. You have to have somebody at every level. And some people don't.

Kellie Commons 13:30

People don't want that correct. Continue moving up. And you need those folks, those right. Well, that no all the secrets and the subject matter expertise. The unfortunate as Glad as I am to see it happening now though, I think a lot of the struggle is that we've we're way behind the eight ball, manufacturing and hospitality in particular, have legged in responding to the changing needs of the workforce over the last 15 years. This was something that we needed to be focused on. But there was such a an embarrassment of riches in terms of available people in the workforce who were willing or needed to take whatever job they could get. And you could you know, put them in that Ron Popeil rotisserie and just set them and forget them. And if they quit thought you hire somebody else, you know, you fill those entry level roles. And never meaningfully in hospitality and manufacturing very much. So gave them that attention that someone in the entry level of a white collar job may have gotten about, here's what the ladder looks like. Right. And so as employees, we have fewer people in the workforce than you know, in any time in recent history, and folks that are entering the workforce, and folks that are in the workforce are requiring different things from their employers. And I think that That's great. And watching these two industries kind of crack open to understand the importance of providing that visibility, I think is a long time coming, but very valuable steps.

Leighann Lovely 15:11

Right? If we were to treat it, how do we treat? Because it's you're talking about it happening now. But had it always been? You treats? Regardless of the industry? Is it white collar, blue collar? Hospitality, I don't know which where that falls under. But had we treated all of them are the same regardless of, you know, education regardless, here's, here's where you're starting, here's the path of how you can progress. And in I'm assuming that in hospitality, I know it in manufacturing, because I understand that industry, I don't understand hospitality as well. But there is room to grow, right? There is room to hospitality, hey, you can become a trainer, you can become the manager of a division or whatever within. So there, there is there is I'm assuming growth opportunity. And like, absolutely. And like you said, not everybody wants that. Even in the white color industry even, right, hey, I just want to go in, I want to be a help desk technician. And I'm wanting to be really, really good at that. And that's my dream.

Kellie Commons 16:20

Yep, I just want to punch, I want to leave it at work, I, you know, I want to do this thing. I don't want to train people, I don't want to supervise people, I don't want to they want to do this, and I want you to pay me a little more every year and just leave me alone. Correct. And that's great. Those people are invaluable.

Leighann Lovely 16:36

Correct. And that's the same thing, if you want to be a machine operator, I just want to do this, I want to punch now. If you want to go in and eventually move up and become a trainer, a plant manager, whatever that might look like, it's no different.

Kellie Commons 16:52

Right? Or, you know, you're a machine operator. But are you curious about quality? Are you curious about supply chain, like, these are different paths that we can put you on? You know, this is how you can pursue that slight shift in gears or, you know, if you want to do this for a year, while you're going to school, while you're figuring it out, while you're deciding on the next thing, great, you know, we also need that that turnover is necessary. You know, being an HR professional part of you know, there, there's that propensity to say, drop the turnover to zero, we keep everybody forever, never leave, please never leave. But it really is about striking that balance between those folks that need to climb and want to climb those subsistence folks that want to just stick in their lane and be comfortable and experts at what they do. And those folks who want to come and go and bring an idea or a joke that becomes part of the culture or a sunshiny attitude, or an example of what not to do and stay for a shorter tenure, to keep that momentum in the business and keep the the team fresh. They're all important players, and they impact those numbers in such different ways.

Leighann Lovely 18:11

Absolutely. And now and you said, you know, obviously, you know the goal 0% turnover, right? That's it's never going to happen. I shouldn't say I mean,

Kellie Commons 18:25

What a nightmare. Oh, think of how horrible if we had 0% turnover? There were two years, nobody's gonna retire. And then why? You know, how do we

Leighann Lovely 18:35

Well, and there's never any fresh ideas. There's never any, you would never have, you know, organic growth in the sense of somebody coming in and saying, hey, you know, you could do it better this way. Or you could, you know, the whole concept of there would never be anybody coming in from another organization or a young or young brain who's like, you know, you could actually do it this way to reduce,

Kellie Commons 19:00

You know, yeah, whatever it might be, we just do it how we've always done it. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 19:07

So there always needs to be that that, you know, new fresh blood coming in. But I also have heard a lot of people saying that some of those younger people coming in, they want to, they want to be loyal. They they're they're looking to find their home.

Kellie Commons 19:26

Sure, nobody, it's a rare person that enjoys the need to bounce. In my experience, working with folks that are predominantly Gen Z as students in the workforce. Within those launch programs, there isn't that intrinsic mental link for that age group where loyalty and longevity are necessarily tied. They want to be loyal in that they want to be engaged and contribute and understand what's happening. happening and be valued. And if that's true, they will stay for longer periods of time. But they are also not opposed to being loyal to 100%. For shorter periods of time, like that we especially as you know, elder millennials, and you know, Gen X leaders have this idea that loyalty means longevity. Loyalty means that you're not on your phone and you're offering fresh ideas and you're invested in what you're doing, and your work is being completed on schedule, and you're giving me and the organization, your best, it doesn't mean that you're phoning it in at 65%. But you stay for five years, that's, I don't want that type of, I don't want that type of loyalty. You know, I'm concerned, regardless of the timeframe, with an engaged, contributing workforce, you know, do I want people to leave every six to 12 months? No, you know, I would love to see, but three years is a wonderful tenure for folks in this Gen Z bucket. They are energized and you get a lot of contributions from them, but it never gets stale. And you're you get a reasonable turn of, of fresh ideas and voices.

Leighann Lovely 21:22

And it's wildly interesting, because I talked to so many HR professionals, and they always think of loyalty and longevity, as you know, an inclusion inclusive thing, jus haven't looked at as something different. Is is really refreshing because you can be wildly loyal, but only be at a company for two to three years. And and give it your all and then have that company in turn, not be upset when it's time for you to move on. And still in and I've had this conversation. I've had this conversation with HR professionals, when they're saying, you know, I don't know that this person's in it for the long haul. And I've had to say to him, if this person will give you high quality, awesome work for the next two years, is it worth it to hire them right now? Well, yeah. Okay. So why are you concerned that they're going to leave you, you know, that you don't want to hire him? Because they might leave you in five years? Or they might leave you at? What you know? And they're like, Well, you know, I really don't want to have to train somebody again. Okay. It's going to take what, two, three weeks to get them up and running. And then by, you know, two months, three months from now, they're gonna be out there on their own producing doing an awesome job for you, which is what you're saying? Well, yeah. Okay. So for two and a half, three years,

Kellie Commons 22:53

The real responsibility is having that argument with people. The real responsibility is that you as a leader, while there there need to work to increase the, or to decrease the time to proficiency for the next person. But it's it How fast can we get them up and running? Correct. Understanding that now we're shifting our focus to we want to lock somebody into this role for the next six years. And it we're shifting it to let's get someone in here who's passionate about it, and get them working as fast as we can, right? My partner likes to say, when he hires new team members, I'm just renting you until you're on to the next big thing.

Leighann Lovely 23:32

And that if we, if more, more leaders thought of it that way. And were in again, not. They were loyal to those employees, as long as those employees were at the company. And those employees were loyal to them there and understanding that because everybody wants Oh, you know, my company is the best. And anybody who works here is going to stay here forever. No, they're not. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to bust your you know, burst your bubble, I'm sorry to break your heart, but you're not the best. There is. Millions of organizations out there. And your your, if you want to leave this position open for the next six months, while you look for the perfect person who's going to stay there for the next 10 years. You're you're going to lose six months, maybe eight months of production. Or you could hire this person who you know, will do a great job, but you know, that they're probably going to leave in two years. But there's

Kellie Commons 24:32

But there's an interesting, but that mentality, oh, sorry, go ahead.

Leighann Lovely 24:36

But there are a ton of employers out there that still will say, Yeah, I'm going to pass on them because I think they're going to leave in two years. Okay, then you can leave this open, and you're going to lose the production that this person would jump in and be able to get up and running and give you those two solid years for sure. You know, and maybe leave and maybe you know what if you treat them amazing, and you do really Well, maybe he'll get three years out of them, maybe you'll get even longer out of them.

Kellie Commons 25:05

But maybe they'll stay with the organization and move into a different role if it is the best company like, and you know that I hate the word attitude across the board that voiced opinion from employers. And the fact that that is a known belief, prevents people from being honest about what they want to need. I've always had that mentality with my team like I am, you're here for now, you're in this role for as long as you are until you're on to your next adventure. Right? So I have had team members come to me and say, It's not that I'm unhappy with my job. But I think in the next couple of months, I'm going to be looking to move on to my next chapter. Right? Not two weeks notice. Because it isn't met with that resistance and that bitterness? How can you let and you know, we haven't we have the opportunity then to have an open conversation? Is there something about your job I can change? Would it help to shift? Is it money? Like, and okay, if it's time for you to leave? How can I support you into the next? Do you need some contacts? Do you need help taking a look at your resume, if we can have an open dialogue about the fact that we are not getting married. When we hire an employee, it's not forever, we can have a more open and honest dialogue when it's time for them to leave and move on to that next thing so that we don't feel so left in the lurch. Managing that retention schedule is a daily leadership function, that it's based on the relationship and not that one sided idea that you I hired you. And now you have to stay here forever.

Leighann Lovely 26:49

You know, and then God if, if more managers, and that really leads me into the next question that I was going to ask you, which is what are some of the strategies that you have to better understand your team and retain your people in in a market like this? And you're you are already answering that you're having that open dialogue and not having, you know, if people were more open and going to their managers and saying, you know, here are the reasons that I'm thinking or considering leaving. And that manager said, Okay, let's, let's talk it through. And if I can offer you something that you're missing in your current role, you want more responsibility, you want more, or if we just don't have it here, then I completely understand now your position to go. Okay. So in the next four months, I'm going to have another slot that I'm going to need to, to fill your as a company, you're better position to move and, you know, be prepared to to backfill that you're not going to be backfilling that, you're not going to be behind the mark, you're going to be ahead of the curve, where all the other companies are going to be like, Oh, wait, you're giving two weeks notice what, why, why you're doing such a good job, you're already aware. And you're right.

Kellie Commons 27:59

Take the next 10 days to write down everything you do, because we haven't been paying attention to your needs in this this day. And part of a to answer the question with kind of a pivot in this market. I think especially in manufacturing, and hospitality, so much of managing the employee needs is different than the conversations that are being had. I go to so many events and webinars and seminars and the folks that are having these conversations about even the data that's been collected there in white collar jobs. Even in manufacturing, hospitality, we're talking to people who sit in air conditioned offices, you know, like there, were talking about flexible scheduling and remote work, and those things are great. But I can't run a manufacturing plant remotely. Right. Um, and it's disappointing, especially as HR as a practice and employers overall are starting to talk about paths into professional life, but don't go through that four year college track. We're still not having conversations about how to meet the needs of people that don't take that path. I can't offer construction workers remote schedule. It's difficult to navigate sick time in some of those scenarios. Because I my my relatively white collar neighborhood is going to freak out if we don't get our snow plowed because we upped the sick days for our municipal package. And you know, so part of the struggle is a voice at the table. have employers is to say, the data we have on this doesn't apply. I think we need to be surveying, a surveys are such a tough thing. We need to be collecting more data, whether it is quantitative survey based data or internal qualitative feedback from our team members about how to serve their needs, and make the jobs that we're trying to get people to fill, and stay in more attractive and feasible to that one of our plants still move to the, you know, in order to fill the third shift, they said, we'll do 4-10s.

Leighann Lovely 30:43

It's so I completely understand what you're saying. So I, my husband, he is he's in a blue collar role. He runs a, you know, a process, he runs out, you know, he's on the manufacturing floor. So, you know, he's sitting here listening to me talk about, you know, oh, man, I can work from home when I whenever I want, I can do this. And, and he's sitting there going, Yeah, well, I have to go in every day, I have to be at my machine every day, he's like this, none of this stuff really applies to me, none of it. You know, why should I care about any of this? And I'm thinking to myself, Wow, through the entire pandemic, his business was considered essential. Yeah, it I mean, so think about all of these people, all, you know, the whole entire world is like, Oh, I only want to work remote. Now, I'm not gonna go into the office anymore. And here are these individuals, how you know, the hospitals, you've got all of these essential workers that the world is going crazy arguing about, I'm not going to I'm not going to go into the office anymore. And we're blind to the fact that there is a huge population of people, that still their lives did not change. They went to work every single day. And in some cases, they worked harder. I mean, my God hospitals, they worked their butts off. How and what are we doing? Because all of us, you know, white collar workers are saying, well, I want better conditions, I want to be able to work from home, why would I go into the office when I can do? We're sitting here being and forgive me, but selfishly, you know, me, me, me. But what about them? What about? How do we improve the quality, that of, of how they work? When we're still saying, Well, you need to be there every day, I need my labels for my bread, nut bread, cheese, or whatever, so that I can go to the store and get my and then we're sitting here whining about why is there a shortage of this toilet paper?

Kellie Commons 32:52

Why are their supply chain issues? Right? There was there's been a lot of statements over time, if you don't like it get get a better job, right? Get a better job. Like, there are a lot of roles in manufacturing companies that are on that production side that make excellent livings. It is arguably a better job than many, many options. You're saying get a different job that has the same standards that I do. But if that's the case, then you don't have food products, you have supply chain delays, you have municipal your trash isn't getting picked up, you're like, it's not, it's not as simple as we would like to make it out to be. And realistically, the workforce is pretty well split between those service based things where that remote work is possible. And those boots on the ground, there is no way to produce this remotely, roles that keep the whole thing on the wheel on its wheels. And we've spent so much time talking about the former category of employees. And it's continued to make that those latter categories appear less attractive to people having those conversations, right, because as employers, we are still trying to minimize any available cost, of course. And my challenge always, you know, as an HR practitioner has been that balance right where that fulcrum point between the appropriate sacrifice on the part of the business and the appropriate sacrifice on the part of the employee. And each party as HR practitioners, each side of that equation thinks that we're most concerned with the other side, you know, and but how, how do we balance that, you know, and how do we make those roles as attractive as possible and meeting the needs of the team? I wish we had more conversations about it. Right, especially as we have emphasized the importance of getting people into those roles.

Leighann Lovely 34:57

And I think that the people who are fit ugly on the floor need to have a voice at that table? They can't they can't have somebody speaking on their behalf. Because, and I know, and I'm not saying that somebody like you doesn't fully understand.

Kellie Commons 35:12

I don't I absolutely don't.

Leighann Lovely 35:15

Right, But you truly, you truly don't. Because you're, you're not in it every day somebody needs somebody who's physically, somebody who's physically doing that work, needs to have a seat at the table, to be able to say, look, I'm here to represent my fellow workers, I'm here to say, this is what would help us this would this is what would make a difference. For us. We know we have to be here, we know we have to come in every day. But what if we did this? What you know, and come up with different ideas? Because I don't know when the last time that I heard somebody who physically is doing that job, talk about how they could make it better. All the feedback that I always get is from somebody who's managing those people from an office. Yeah.

Kellie Commons 36:11

And I really do you know, we surveys have become such a buzz topic, right? We're always we're talking about employee engagement surveys, and blah, blah, blah. And sometimes those surveys, my question around the surveys, it's always like, do we want to win? Or do we want to learn? Do we want good numbers in this? Or like, reactions from employees that make it appear that we're doing everything we can? Or do we want to get just blasted? Like, do we want the ugly answers? Because I want the ugly answers, right, I want to I want to hear those things that I that I haven't heard, because sometimes it is things like, you know, it would be for a third shift would be more attractive to me, if I only had to do it three days, or four days a week, right? You know, if we could work six, six hour shifts for some people based on their family, you know, like, if we could break this into four, six hour shifts, where it could be a little bit more flexible for people.

Leighann Lovely 37:12

But I think that we've created a culture that is it's fear based. For so many individuals out there, well, if I speak up, and I'm honest about it, what if I lose my job? What if they replace me with somebody who's going to conform to what they need here? I mean, and, and I, I've seen those cultures, too. I've, I've placed individuals in there that literally start working there. And then three days later, they're like, I'm not working here anymore. And I'm like, why what's going on? And they're like, oh, what's a horrible, horrible culture, I cannot, you know, it's so there are those still those fear based cultures conform? Or your route? So we, you know, as a society, this is still a, you know, a systemic problem that that is, that is raging throughout, within some of these, you know, industries that exists still, it's conform, or go away, it's still the, or you're not doing this fast enough, or how dare you take a sick day is king, right? Production is, and I and I get that but there's gotta be a different, there's, there's got to be a better way.

Kellie Commons 38:22

And that's, culture is such an interesting thing. Because there again, you know, kind of the folks that sit in offices, work on culture a lot, as a topic, capital, see culture, right. And I've seen a lot of organizations, where the capital C culture that happens off the floor, what our mouths are saying doesn't match the the little c culture that is what happens on the floor, and is what our feet are doing. And I think there's a lot of disconnect in HR as a discipline, about how culture is driven. You know, I struggle as an HR practitioner with being charged with with improving the culture. Sometimes you know, that it's something in my career over the last 1516 years that I've been charged with doing more than once, we need to change the culture, you and your team need to change the culture. I can't. I can't if you say that, that one of our values is, you know, growth and development. But so that's the culture that I'm pushing, you know, but that leadership at the floor level, the frontline level, is focused on call volume in a call center or like customer time in contact with it's not about getting that training and that's not a priority. How can I I can't lead all of the teams you know, whatever that that priority is happens every minute of every day. Culture is not an initiative, you know, the culture is. So in order to change the culture, you have to change what you do. Right. And, you know, I feel like in some of these scenarios where that is there is that mismatch of priorities, especially in those like frontline type jobs, the culture is we care about our people that are the most important thing, like, you know, and then it's you need to work six days, or you need to get XYZ done, but there's no overtime available to do within or your hours are being cut.

Leighann Lovely 40:41

It's it starts at the top, however, it has to, it has to be believed, and it has to be shown all the way down, trickled down. And if one person is out of misalignment, and is, oh, well, you didn't finish this, you have to stay late, that throws off, you know, absolutely everything, if the whole idea is work life balance, the whole idea is taking it absolutely it has to it has to start from the very top of holding whatever that value is true to heart.

Kellie Commons 41:19

And then it has to be 100% Correct. You know, and meet any, you know, problem is any deviation from expected performance, right. And, and as leaders throughout the organization, the accountability for those cultural initiatives, whatever it is, that we're focusing on, has to be absolute. Because it just like having kids, right, like the first time, the first time there's a chink in that armor, you know, that if this is our the first time there's a glimmer of light through that, where you fail to enforce it. It's nothing but arrows through that tiny hole, and you've lost all accountability. And culture can't be something where I like slink out of my HR cave, and deliver as a mandate, you know, that this is who we are now, right? And that's kind of that my hump back and cook up some next thing that we're gonna, you know, you i You lose credibility, if it's not in lockstep with what our practices that everyone is held accountable to. And that has stemmed from the feedback from those line level employees like, this is the place that we want to work, and what does that balance between what we need to achieve production, financials, performance, whatever that is, where's that balance between the business that we have to do? And the business that we have to run? Right, are the people that do it?

Leighann Lovely 42:45

And, and that's why there's teams of people who I mean, outside, there's companies that all they do is they go into other companies to help completely, you know, change culture, and they work with people at every single level, all the way down to the manufacturing floor. Because one person does not have the ability to train to change the culture at a company and I, and I love that when you you said that, they come to you. And they say, okay, change the culture of the company. Really? What power does one person have? None. One person has zero power at a company, unless it's a company of one, right? Or maybe two,

Kellie Commons 43:31

The idea you have that, you know, culture isn't about posters are happy hour or a pool table, or you know, what, it's the culture leads to the pool table and the happy hour, you know, culture isn't mandatory fun, it's organic, fun,

Leighann Lovely 43:47

Right? If you have buy in from your entire organization, you then have created the culture. And in that call, and I'm not saying that you've created a good culture, right? I'm saying that the culture you've created the culture that is now if you have the organization all flowing in one way or the other. That is your culture. Yep, good or bad recurring, correct. In order to change that, if you're trying to change it for the better, you have to get buy in from your entire organization to be flowing in one way or another. One person does not have the ability to do that. It's just you need every,

Kellie Commons 44:29

or even one department. It's not like we released all of our HR minions into the wild and shift this you know, it would be like it would be like goldfish turning a boat, like there's just not enough that you're picturing it right? Like and how many goldfish you would need to do that. You know, but that's that's the thing, but if we get all of the fish in the whole place, we can turn the boat Yep. But our you know, the the two 612 fish that are HR to Depending on the size of the organization, right, just don't have the juice. And, you know, I understand working in HR, the joke is, you know, I'll make it myself at this point, like, here comes the fun police, you know, like, HR historically just doesn't have in most organizations doesn't have the street cred.

Leighann Lovely 45:19

Well, and unfortunately, HR has become the, the way that the employees look at HR has become up here comes the, you know, the person who's the bad guy, right? The Yeah, when, and I've said this numerous times throughout this, you know, throughout my podcast, nobody started out when, you know, again, you know, I have my degree and with an emphasis in HR, I did not start going to school for human resource management, with the idea that I wanted to be the guard dog for a company, I originally went, because I wanted to be a voice for the people. But it changed human resource in 2008, there was a definite change in, it was a shift, because we used to have huge teams of HR. And we were able to be a voice for the people, because you had, you know, I was on a team of like, seven people. And then I was laid off. And then when, when the economy bounced back, you would have at that same company that had seven HR people, there was one trying to do everything. How was that the person supposed to try to be a voice for the people when they couldn't even keep their head above water in order to get payroll done, benefits done. And, you know, all the other stuff that went along with being HR, right. And we I know that we're trying to get back to that, where that HR person can be a voice for the people, they can be a resource, they can help them. But because a lot of people saw HR now in a different light, it's been a struggle to get back to that. And so you're right, the joke, you know, I, I became the hated HR lady ever below. Here she comes. And I'm like, you know, what?

Kellie Commons 47:16

Never good news. Right? It was right? We're never bringing good news,

Leighann Lovely 47:19

Right? Sign this do this dot, you know, and it was, it's so yes, HR. You know, a lot of people don't want HR around. But they're

Kellie Commons 47:33

And it's interesting that you say like that your degree, you have an emphasis in human resources. My degree is in Hospitality Management, my career was pursued to serve. And, you know, bringing that into human resources, you know, my responsibility was to serve customers, clients, guests. And I was educated with the ideology that whoever does the most for your business, owns your business, runs your business, and that's who you're responsible to serve. So my customer is the employee. Because, you know, there's the old adage, right, like, if you take care of your employees, you never have to worry about the customers, right? It's this, you know, if I take care of our internal customers, if I ensure that we're serving that need, the standards get met, the product goes out, like it's that intrinsic motivation, where people do feel engaged and cared about and served. You know, I've had folks say, I've been in my role now about eight weeks. And I've had a couple of people surprised that I know, on site as many of the people that I know. And remember their stories, and it really is that like front desk of a hotel thing, where it's like that you need that relationship. You know, the same thing learning a roomful of students for me now as quickly as I can, because I need them. Just like a guest in a hotel, just like an employee in my, my organization. I need them to know that they're my priority, right? And now, if you told me three times about your sick kid, and I don't remember, none of our relationship, from your perspective feels authentic. Because to you, it's one to one. To me, there's 500 of you. But that doesn't matter. It's like when your server comes up to a table and fest, sorry, it took so long we're short staffed today. I don't care. Right? You know, because this is the only experience that I'm having today as an employee with one HR person or as a guest with one server. And in that service mindset is so often lost.

Leighann Lovely 49:46

And that's what makes you are different. Because you care, and you take time to show them that you care because you That means the world, to your employees, when you remember the details when you remember what matters to them. Because it's it's never about for your employees, what it comes down to, is how you made them feel. Nobody remembers the specific conversation, you know, six months from now, ultimately, everything in life comes down to how you made them feel at that moment. And when they have a sick kid at home, and they come to you, and they say, I've got to go take care of that. If you make them feel guilty for the fact they have to leave work, they will remember that forever. If you tell them, I completely understand that you gotta go take care of this, go take care of it, don't worry about anything, and you make them feel validated. And you make them feel like nothing matters other than them taking care of their family, at the end of the day, they're going to remember that you made them feel okay about it. And I employers, they, they're so blind to that, if I feel guilty that I have to go take care of my family, or I feel guilty that I have to walk away from work for something. Because it's a personal thing for me. I remember how my employer made me feel when you remember a birthdate or you remember something personal about employee, they remember how you made them feel. It is so wildly important.

Kellie Commons 51:40

You know, as being that that HR fulcrum and still needing to manage the costs and interests of the business, because they're, you know, we do have that responsibility. I think, in those situations where you want to be that employee advocate or go the extra mile or give the thing and you can't, or there's a limitation, having enough respect for members of the workforce across the spectrum to have that conversation around the why is so important. Or when there is a corrective action or policy action that has to be taken, not just delivering that, you know, because that's what the HR ogre does. When she slinks out from underneath the bridge, you want to have that conversation around. Beyond the policy. This is why the policy, or this is why I have to say no, or I do want you to take the time. But understand these, please do take the time. But here's how it impacts the attendance policy. Family is first. Absolutely. But I want you to be prepared that this is the conversation that we have to have right like going that. And that so much of the struggle that I've seen in the difference between white collar work and blue collar work is that folks are more willing or comfortable having those holistic conversations with white collar workers, or will have a conversation with a blue collar worker at a white collar level about something which is worse than not sharing the information in the first place. meet people where they are and give them holistic information.

Leighann Lovely 53:21

Yep. I yeah, I totally agree. And wish we could continue this conversation. But we are coming to time and I want to fit. Yes. I want to ask you the question of the season. So what would you change about your job or the practices that people have in your role? Yeah, if you if you wanted to change anything, or if you could?

Kellie Commons 53:46

I think honestly, we right. Before the question this season, we really touched on that a lot. I think that the thing I would want to change for a lot of HR practitioners is understanding the importance of taking the information that your decisions choices, actions, the company's decision decisions are based on and bringing that information to the team in the way that they can accept it. It is dangerous, especially the longer you're an HR practitioner at a high level. You forget the lingo, the language that you use your comfort level with the information, it's so second nature. That where we where we can control the culture is to have meaningful conversations with people about the things that impact them in a way that they understand. You know, open enrollment is always something that sticks out to me in hospitality and manufacturing. I know a lot of highly educated white collar people who have no idea how their health insurance works. Hmm. So if that's the case, the speed with which and the casual nature or sometimes with which that information is rolled out to folks that may have even less exposure to that information is a great example. Like the things that we just gloss over because we're so comfortable with the information and not understanding. It's like if you have the general manager of a restaurant, train the brand new server, or the brand new busser, it came up in catering, you know, you tell the new person like the shapers, what's the Shaffer? How do I light it? You know, what does that mean? All right. So really meeting people where they are with information is something that I would love to see shifted among a lot of colleagues that have to work across different age groups across different experience levels, across different, like technological abilities, is something that comes up a lot and just having practitioners reconsider where the workforce is to deliver information in a way that it can be received more completely.

Leighann Lovely 56:08

That is an awesome answer. And I completely agree. You are clearly extremely passionate about what you do. And I thank you so much for coming on today. Kelly, if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Kellie Commons 56:24

LinkedIn is definitely the easiest way to track me down. I am active on LinkedIn, Kellie Commons, Kellie with an I E. But also I am reachable at kcommons@Gehlfoods.com, I love to talk HR almost at an embarrassing level. So I'm always happy to connect with colleagues and HR folks in other disciplines really to just kind of get to build my viewpoint of what's happening so that I can be of service.

Leighann Lovely 56:55

Excellent. Again, Kelly, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. And that's why I love talking to you because I am an HR geek as well.

Kellie Commons 57:03

I love it. It was my pleasure. Happy holidays. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.

Leighann Lovely 57:10

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Kellie -

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/kellie-commons

E-mail – kcommons@Gehlfoods.com

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, hr, hospitality, employees, culture, folks, understand, job, conversation, organization, role, bartender, workforce, paths, years, person, manufacturing, employers, students, industry

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

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Don’t miss this amazing conversation with Kristin Gupta, a professional networker, recruiter, and connector of people. Kristin is the founder of Defining Leaders a place for people to come together to collaborate and connect as people in order to grow as leaders. Kristin saw a need and was able to fill that gap. Join our conversation as we talk about the art of networking and the importance of genuine relationships.

Leighann Lovely 00:20

Leighann Lovely 01:09

Welcome to another season of Let's Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation. I'm so excited to have Kristin Gupta join me today. She has been an executive recruiter for over a decade now. And if there's one thing she has certainly learned through her time in the industry, the best way to find great opportunity is through networking. As a recruiter, a network enthusiast a coach, a speaker and a business culture fantastic. She loves growing her network and helping others do so as well. As an executive recruiter specializing in HR leadership. She has the opportunity to impact companies by helping them find their people leader. The person that keeps the ship moving takes care of employees and ensures business can be done because the right people are in the right seats with what they need to get the job done. As a speaker, coach networker and connection enthusiast, she believes that we can enjoy what we do it work and home, and we can find fulfilment in our careers, not just work for a paycheck. She believes that we all need to continually work on being better leaders, and creating a community of leaders. That is why in 2020, she created Defining Leaders, a community with the purpose to connect leaders and allow them to know one another. On a more personal basis. This group is about learning from each other. And a place where people can collaborate. they curate topics that inspire and drive one another to beat the best version of themselves. They meet on Wednesday at noon on Zoom to share their thoughts on leadership, this platform has become a place for growth as they believe together as better Anyone is welcome to join if you want to be a better leader, and this is going to be a fun conversation. Welcome Kristin, I am so excited to talk with you today. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Kistin Gupta 03:05

You too Leighann. You know, we've known each other's podcasts for so long. And we've known each other for so long. And I we keep we kept bumping back into each other which I loved because people kept saying we add you have to talk to Kristen and Kristen, you have to talk to Leanne. So now that we're finally on this together, it's it's like okay, this is finally happening. And it should have happened a while ago.

Leighann Lovely 03:28

Yes, it is very exciting.

Kistin Gupta 03:30

Yeah, so I am also a recruiter like Leighann, and my specialty is in the HR space. So I help companies, I call it my day job. And then I have a fly by night Batman job that my kids call it. But in my day job, I work for a recruitment firm called LHH, where recruit for HR professionals, especially at the executive level. And then at night, not actually at night, but also during the day, I helped to develop people because one of the things that I noticed is that so many of our companies don't have the inner capability to really work on developing leaders within their company, especially in EQ. We work a lot on EQ in our defining Leaders Group. Unfortunately, not everybody's available to come and meet us on Wednesdays at noon. So we decided to create a podcast with some of the learnings that we have from those defining leader sessions. So we talk about things that are tough, we get deep we get vulnerable and talk about things that really matter to developing yourself professionally for all

Leighann Lovely 04:38

That's awesome that's in your right not all too often. We don't spend enough time working on ourselves. When when we need to we need to continuously try to level up and try to and not just try to level up it's it's more sometimes it It's more just taking a step back and taking a look, you know, on a mental health or on a, you know, just leveling your own brain out to take a deep breath and make sure that you're doing everything that you need to do to keep yourself sane, I guess would be the word right.

Kistin Gupta 05:21

Even can be actually talks about this quite a bit in in his seventh habit, which is sharpen the saw. And how many people don't take the time to practice the seventh habit? Because they're too busy cutting down trees with adult blade. Right, right. Yeah, how often are we so busy cutting down trees with adult blade that we don't take that second to sit and sharpen our saw, and then realize how much faster we can cut down those trees. But I'm too busy to do it. Right?

Leighann Lovely 05:50

You know what I say that to my husband all the time will recommend. And I bring this up because you know, I see your little one unit running behind you and my little one, right before we started talking. I say this all the time, when we're struggling with behavioral things with my child, my husband will say hey, I listened to this awesome podcast about parenting and I'll say, Oh, I just don't have time for that.

Kistin Gupta 06:17

And why don't we have time for it? Because we're not listening to the podcast about parenting.

Leighann Lovely 06:21

Right? And then, you know, he looks at me and he goes, you know, as she's acting out, and he goes, you know, the podcasts that I listened to, and I'm like, Oh, okay. Okay. And really, really, it's, it's extremely important. Like, in order to be a completely whole person, you need to you need to take care of your yourself in all aspects, professionally, mental, mental wellness, as well as the home life in order to be a whole person. Right. I mean, it's so yeah, I mean, that's, it's we too often forget to what you were saying sharpen the saw. And it's not just professionally, it's it's everywhere, but definitely professionally. So. And I'm, I am a lifelong learner. I love to continue to learn new things. But it's, it is often that sometimes they forget to take a deep look at myself in the mirror and you realize, especially when you work remote, oh my god, I haven't taken a shower in two days. Did I just say that out loud? Okay, moving on from that. Yeah.

Kistin Gupta 07:37

And you're talking about two days, sometimes. It can be up to a week. First day that I took a shower last week,

Leighann Lovely 07:48

what do you what do you love it? Was it? Oh, that's a week. You know, I was talking to my brother the other day. And he said the same thing. He goes, my wife will look at me and go. When was the last time you changed? or shower?

Kistin Gupta 08:05

I think this is a COVID issue though, too, because so many of us in professional roles. We started working from home and when you work from home and you don't go anywhere. It happens, right? Our dress code is leggings and T shirts. Yep. Instead of what we used to wear to the office. I don't think any of those clothes exists in my closet now that we've done the purge.

Leighann Lovely 08:27

By Yeah, all of my business suits moved into the spare bedroom. And then slowly, I needed space and I went wind do I wear it? Like, do I ever wear these? I'm like, I think I need to get rid of them. And this slowly, they just kept like, Oh, this one's cute. Maybe I should keep it in eventually. I think I have like three or four just just in case when I mean, I used to have an entire wardrobe. Right? Exactly. You know, like a month's worth of business suits. Exactly. Yeah. So much wasted money. So

Kistin Gupta 09:08

go ahead, man. What were you gonna say?

Leighann Lovely 09:11

Well, I was just gonna say so why don't why don't we talk a little bit about you know, what you do for your, your, your day job. And then we'll talk a little bit more about your your night job you're fly by. You're so funny because I was Batman job. Yes, you can. Yes. So, you know, obviously the recruiting the hiring world has, like you said, you know, pandemic, everything, you know, things have drastically changed. And if I were to go back to when I first started in this industry, obviously things change year by year. We're used to it slowly changing. But we've experienced, you know, just change that sped up a great deal. because of what we experienced during the pandemic, what are you seeing?

Kistin Gupta 10:08

In 2021, one of the things that we saw was this uptick in hiring that was expected by economists for a really long time. And that expectation was because baby boomers are starting to retire in droves. And the next generations to take over rule, literally less people than those that were retiring. So the backfill replacements were less than the job openings. And the economists had been warning us for a while that this was going, that this was coming that this was coming in 2020 Through it all for a loop. I think that that was a really interesting time for a lot of people, which caused some wage gap issues, when those that were moving, were asking and able to get 20, 30, 40% bumps in order to move and sometimes expecting it. When students that were graduating from school were expecting, instead of what you and I maybe graduated with maybe 50 to $60,000, outside of school, and that was a really good wage now demanding 70 and getting it right when hiring from the from university or from school. And then 2022 had been a continuation of that. But now here's what's interesting is, there's also massive layoffs happening in the entire country. And in the past, these massive layoffs have always happened. And a lot of people don't realize this. But it's different now. Because we know about it, because it's publicized. And it's not just publicized by the news. It's publicized by the people that are getting laid off. And a lot of us, like candidates especially are feeling this sense of uncertainty. Why should I leave something that I feel secure? And that I feel sure in for something that I might get laid off? Or what is this industry really going through? Right? By the way, here's just a word word of advice, their massive layoffs have always happened, right? It's just more public now. And you're hearing it over and over and over again, from all these different places, there is still still a talent shortage, that's not going away anytime in the near future, the next five to 10 years minimum, we're going to be facing this. And so me and you and I are very much in need. And in demand recruiters are needed right now. And I hope for those of you that are recruiters and wondering, like, yes, we're very much needed right now. But also, there are less people for the jobs that are out there, even when we hear this bad news. So it's worth keeping your ear open. It's worth looking at what else is out there. And it's also worth seeing if there might be a better culture or if there might be a better opportunity for creating it internally.

Leighann Lovely 13:01

So that's what I'm saying. And it's it's so interesting that you you know, you're completely right, layoffs have I mean, businesses, depending on depending on the economy. And it's funny, because even during the pandemic, there were some businesses that thrived. They were hiring like crazy. They, they were thriving, they did amazing, they did better during the pandemic than they had ever done. So no matter what the state of the economy, there are always going to be businesses that are hiring, it may not be something that's in your area of expertise. Now, I'm not saying that the pandemic didn't cause, you know, mostly mayhem and mass quantities of people to to lose their jobs, because that's what it I mean, that's what it did. We shut down we literally shut down the world. But even during that time, there were still businesses that had no choice but to continue to run, because they were essential. Businesses, right. And so you make a valid point about layoffs continuing to, you know, they've always happened. And, yeah, people just didn't notice. But this is the world of social media. This is the world of pretty much laying your entire life out on. Online. We know.

Kistin Gupta 14:19

More importantly than us judging ourselves against that social media and having it be our truth, when it's only a partial truth. And so many of us don't like it's hard to disconnect ourselves and realize that that's just a partial truth and not the full truth. We judge whether or not we should look at for a job against massive layoffs happening in California. Does that really affect you here are massive layoffs happening in Texas, and in a different industry than yours, right? Not really going to affect how you look at things, but it does affect how you perceive right So I found that to be really impactful is to understand this is my perception right now, because this is all I can see.

Leighann Lovely 15:08

Right. And, and when you say here, here for us is, is Wisconsin. So you, you know, information is is only as good as, you know, the whole picture, I guess, I mean is probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But it's it's, it's all relative to where you're at I mean, where you're at if you're getting information from Yeah, the state of Wisconsin, but you live in California or vice versa. It it doesn't mean anything unless you're, you're getting the whole picture. Absolutely.

Kistin Gupta 15:44

Right. One other point that I want to make here, too, is some some of our listeners might be thinking because they're working in their day job, and they're not happy in their day job right now, as by the way that's true for 80% of people, unfortunately, is that they're not happy in their day job, because they're not getting the development, they're not getting that fulfillment that they really want to get. And the expectation is often if I leave this job, the grass must be greener on the other side. Or if I were to find a different company, it must be better there. Sometimes we actually have to look internal a little bit and see, how can I make this better. And so one of the things that we talk a lot about in our leadership development courses, is victimhood is when you look at everything that's going on around you, and saying it's because of that, or it's because of them, we we played the Day card a lot. They should be better at this. We're in the face right now of your interviews, or in our reviews right now. And a lot of our companies, and I put up some polls and that type of thing. And what a lot of our and a poll that we put out there is is the annual review, keep robust? Is it something that we should continue to do? Or is it something that we should get rid of? And 72% of respondents said, Yes, we need to keep it. But 46% of respondents said we need to keep it but it needs to be better. When I asked the question, how do we make it better? 2% of people responded. So how do we make it better? Let's not say they anymore, right? Let's, I can do this? Right? Once we take that power, we'll find something interesting. And that is that our job does get better. Your relationships get better, that we find fulfillment, as long as we continue to play that they card will always be the victim, the grass will never be greener, no matter how many times we move.

Leighann Lovely 17:47

Right. And, and we also have a generation of of individuals. You know who you are, that, that that believe, you know, that they believe they're entitled to it's the entitlement, I'm entitled to this. And they should be giving this and providing this to me. And, unfortunately, because of and I don't want to say it's the entire I hate grouping. I really dislike grouping an entire generation. There's there's always exceptions to the rule. But for the most part, the way that you know, certain generations have been deemed there has been a group now that have, you know, that entitlement piece, and part of this whole cultural shift, because of the pandemic and companies realizing that it's time for them and try and figure out how to say this without saying they are them or but no, it's

Kistin Gupta 19:02

It's a hard language shift.

Leighann Lovely 19:04

Yeah. But it's time time for all of us to start putting in effort to change the way that we are at work, right. And it takes it it takes, obviously senior leadership to to really start to implement that. But it takes buy in from everybody. I think the newest generation coming in is going to be the true advocates for that. I mean, they they truly are the pushers of that.

Kistin Gupta 19:38

I'm glad that you brought up the generational piece, man because we've done some study on this as a group as well. And it's actually the reason why defining leaders, the podcast and the leadership development group that I run continues to exist today. And that is this generational gap in a way and we talked about this When when we talked about recruiting and what the world of HR looks like today and this need for talent, why is this talent gap here? I get this question I'm sure you do every day. Why can't I find anyone? Why does no one want to go back to work? Or Why does no one want to work? That's not actually the case. There are a lot of people that want to work. But the truth is, there's less workers than people retiring right now, literally less numbers of people that are in the workforce today than were in the workforce yesterday. And therefore, there's a gap. And economists have known this happening for a while. But therefore, there is a gap in how many employees to fill seats,

Leighann Lovely 20:46

Wasn't there? What is there, like average household number of babies being born is like 1.4, something,

Kistin Gupta 20:54

Two and a half, six years ago, right? And before that,

Leighann Lovely 20:57

it was like 3.5, or something like that, or 3.8.

Kistin Gupta 21:03

My grandparents farming age, it was like 3.5, and my grandparents filled right with 10. Growth household, right. But there are less babies being born today. Right? Then you are born before. And we're 30 years after certain things happen in the world. Already? Actually, no, we're beyond that. After certain things happen in the world where less babies could be born. Right? So what's happening is, less seats are able to be filled, because there's less people to fill them. Right. A couple other things are happening. The baby boomers that are retiring felt lucky to have a job and they had loyalty, not just because they're a generation known for loyalty. But because there was more competition for spots being filled. Right. In other words, they were lucky to have their job and were less likely to move because it was a higher risk move. The next generations after that are more likely to move because their seats open. Right? We all know that seat hog are in the game of it's not merry go round. But what it what does that game where you always take the away. Chair, musical chairs, musical chairs, that like sits in every single seat, and maybe they're gonna win the game. That's unfortunately, the baby boomer generation to degree is they never get out of their seat because they're afraid that if I get out, I won't find another seat. The three generations after that don't have that fear. Because that seats still exists.

Leighann Lovely 22:43

Right? So what's wildly interesting is that there was a time when we implemented the, you know, the AI the, you know, technology came and baby boomers, and I'm actually I don't know, if it was baby boomers or it was baby boomers started getting extremely nervous about the idea that robots were going to take away their jobs. And there was going to be no work left for humans that that. Right. Do you I mean, do you remember hearing about obviously, I was not. I was really little. I was really little at this time. But it was this this huge, like fear based, oh, my gosh, technology is going to take away all of our jobs. And what happened was the opposite. It created more jobs, because now we have to have somebody to create the technology write the code, in order to create all of these different things. So we've actually created more jobs with less people.

Kistin Gupta 22:46

Enlisted for many years to the cotton gin, simple machines, that type of thing. I'm sure there was always about every generation looked at the next and looked at every single technology advancement. And we're like this is going to take away jobs, right? What it often does not always, but what it often does is it creates better quality, higher level jobs for people where you might need a little bit more training, you might need a little bit more development in order to get into these skilled jobs, like CNC machinists, which are really hard to find. So if you're looking for a field to go into CNC machining would be right field.

Leighann Lovely 24:38

And that brings up another thing is that for the longest time, it was especially in during the time that I was coming up or growing up, it was you have to go to college, you have to get a four year degree, otherwise you're not going to be able to find a job. So that created another gap in our economy, which was the the To the machinists, I mean all of the the, the labor gap right? So now you have all of these these parents pushing their kids to you have to go to college, or you're not going to be able to find a good paying job. And I don't know that people realize that a, a highly skilled CNC machinist makes a very, very good living. And if you I mean the other thing that I truly believe was a major mistake is that they got rid of, you know, in, not internships apprenticeships, apprenticeships, apprenticeships now there are companies out there still doing apprenticeships, but very, very few other countries, they still do apprenticeships. This country.

Kistin Gupta 25:52

I love this story, Leighann, I'm going to bring it up all the time on so many different podcasts. Adrienne Warner is the one that shared this story with me. And he was an engineering executive exiting GE at the time. He talked about a UK company and I can't remember the name of the company right now, who hires 150 interns a year into their internship program. By the way, they only convert two of those interns into employees. Wow, whatever. What do they do with the other 148? They have an internal placement system where they find positions for them in their vendors, companies? Oh my gosh, this has existed for over 100 years. That's amazing reasons why we won the World War was because they could come up with better quality planes faster. Why? Because when your supply chain makes sense, it's easier to get things out the door. Those of you in supply chain, we know what supply chain issues do to us today. Anybody tried to buy a car lately? Right? But when your supply chain makes sense, and when you have people internally in your supply chain that are big fans of your company, things go smoother. Right? So again, a great resource here is are you developing people? Are you developing your vendors? Are you developing your acolytes the people that really look up to what you do as an organization?

Leighann Lovely 27:23

You know, and that's interesting that you bring that up, are you developing your acolytes are you developing that is, you know, this, the number one way to damage your organization is to have somebody that you somebody at your company that that is mistreated, that is out there, bad talking your company, right? You're You're destroying your brand, you're, you want to hire people and keep people become the amazing brand. That company, I guarantee had no problem filling 150 spots for that internship program. Because, in turn, they turned around and got those people jobs. And then they were I mean, talked about nonstop about oh my gosh, how great is this company, I'm sure that they had massive loyalty by their vendors, they had massive loyalty by every single person they worked at, simply by running that program. And what a benefit to that company for having those. They have people who are working for them and learning from them. You want to create an amazing culture, treat your people awesome. And they will be out in the world, selling your product or singing your praises, and becoming acolytes for your company. And I don't, I don't understand why companies don't get this, you treat your employees like shit and they're going to be out there bad talking you and you're going to lose customers. And it is way harder to make your brand or reestablish or fix your brand than it is to just keep it going well from the beginning, it's a lot less expensive.

Kistin Gupta 29:12

So this is both from a company and a personal perspective to right. I want to tell you a little bit of a story about myself here. I wanted to specialize in executive level recruitment. I've been with my company now for 11 years. And I wanted to bring my level up from recruiting for everything like a generalist recruiter to recruiting sea level executives primarily. And so one of the things that I decided to do in order to do that was to help my executive level candidates land well, even if I couldn't place them, what do they need to do to land well, and I also know this and so do you, Lian. Often the best way to land well is through networking, and most people suck at it. Really, really suck at it. So why don't I introduce my candidate? As to each other, and they'll help each other and then they'll land. And there'll be what my husband lovingly refers to as Christian knights, or people that are acolytes of Christian Gupta, right. And so I started this group of my executive level candidates networking with one another. And then guess what happened. COVID happened, that we started this in March of 2020. Oh, God moment happened. I looked at the world and I looked at what was going on. And I was like, I have this great group. I can't just limit this to executives, I need to help people, because this is happening to everyone in the world today. And I could look at the world and say, this sucks, or I could do something about it, I want to do something about it. And so I opened up this group, I created two different levels, one for executives, because it does make sense for executives to network with executives, and then one for everyone. And that every one group turned into the thing that I spend the majority of my time and energy and effort on today, because it's so beautiful. But we had over 1000 people in 2020, come to one of our networking events, wow, 1000 people, and over 900 of them landed. Wow. The other account 100 landed in 2021. So 100% of them landed. But we had some people come through their land, that were looking for a job for one year for two years that were looking for a job for eight months that weren't sure how they were going to put food on the on the table for their family, and found some solutions through that. But also, what has that done for me, since it's paid off in spades. It didn't do it for what it could do to pay off. But I saw what was wrong. And I decided to do something about it. Right? How often do we see what's wrong? And then just see what's wrong, or complaint. Right, right. But you can do something little about things to which you and I are both doing one to this podcast that you do. Getting the word out there letting HR know that you're not alone in this, yes, we're all facing this too. You're not in this alone. Having that sense of community is so important. Right? Right. And for me getting my candidates together, and they refer me to business all the time I barely have to sell at this point is, is beautiful,

Leighann Lovely 32:19

Right. And that's, I think that you hit it on the head, the most important thing. And it's not just, it's not just HR, it's not just in any business is the community that you surround yourself with, whether that be just the community at your individual company, but it I think that's what we all are truly looking for in a job, right. And you hope that when you accept a job, that that is that that's going to become your people, that's going to become your community. And by the way, you gave me goosebumps when you were telling me that story because it's it's beautiful. It's absolutely amazing what you what you do and how you help people. But the goal that we all I think most people I shouldn't say we all most people have is to find their, you know, find the right bus, and then hopefully find the right seat on that bus. And then have an awesome community of people that we can be part of. And for us serial networkers, our community of people or, you know, the people that we choose to, to surround ourselves with, you know, I have a wide variety of people that I mean, they're definitely my people I fit in I'm, I refer business, they refer business, and I've found my home with that community. And don't get me wrong, I have a variety of different communities within. But, I mean

Kistin Gupta 33:59

One of our presidents have rightly quoted this, okay, I'm gonna wrongly quote it because I don't remember which president said it, but don't ask what your country can do for you. But ask what you can do for your country. The thing that people look at wrong about networking, is they expect their network to work for them before they realize I have to work for my network. And so it's reverse. It's reverse thinking here.

Leighann Lovely 34:24

Yes, absolutely. And I, I was told when I first started networking, go in there and get as many business cards as you can, and don't come back out until you have a sale. And when I first started networking, I was like, God, I hate this. This is like the worst thing that I have to do. I don't know what I'm doing. I was I was just, I was like a fish out of water. I was floundering around just running around a room handing out my business card to trying to do my 22nd 32nd elevator pitch and I'm like, Why is nobody wanted to Talk to me. And then. So one day, I just got myself a drink. And I just stood at the bar and somebody approached me and they started talking to me. And I was just like, Screw it. I'm just gonna sit here and socialize. And all of the sudden, I started making friends. And I'm like, oh, like, Okay, fine. I'm just gonna make some friends today. And it started to dawn on me that

Kistin Gupta 35:21

That's not working.

Leighann Lovely 35:24

This is this is actually reading and writing. Right now, people want to actually set up a follow up meeting to learn more about what I do and who I am. And this is obviously years ago. And it dawned on me that maybe I was told to you know how to do this the wrong way. And so I completely changed the approach. And once I figured it out, and once I stepped into me, because it took me a while to truly and I think some professionals, it takes a little while for you to truly step into your whole self, right. And with, with the onset of the pandemic, I think there were a lot of people that just finally stepped into who they truly were. And once I did that, it was a game changer. Authenticity is a game changer. People want to know, you people want relationships, people buy from who they like, people ask advice from who they trust. And I know that people come to you, they trust, they like you. They come to me. That is the whole entire difference. But I also ask nothing of them ever,

Kistin Gupta 36:49

Right? Not doing something because the expectation is I will receive something, it's doing something for the sake of helping someone. Right, right? Again, ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country right now you can do for your country, therefore your country will pay you. Right? What's in what's so interesting is when you do that fully, and you do something for others, you feel fulfillment, before you even get anything out of it, right? Because the giving of the gift is the thing that makes you feel good right now is not even the receiving but it's the giving in which that feeling is there.

Leighann Lovely 37:33

And I found myself more frequently trying to find ways to help my network. Yeah, because I'm at home. What if I could connect those two people? Would that make sense? No, probably not. And I'm like, why am I going? Why am I going out of my way to do this? And it's like, because it becomes almost an addiction of, of how can I help more? How can I do more.

Kistin Gupta 38:03

I still remember Leighann, and I'm so grateful that I did this, because it came back to me years later, even the first person that I set up with a mentor. So Shane Bonner, is a wonderful human being. And I did not know him well. But when I met him, he was the president at a company. He'd only been there three months. And I was helping him with his HR need. And I asked for a tour of the manufacturing floor, when I'm helping him with an HR manager that's sitting in a nice office next day is when he's like, Oh, that's a wonderful idea. Idea. Let me take you on a walk. And he knew the first name and something about every single employee on that floor. And I was impressed, because he'd only been there a short number of months. And you could tell that he's out there every single day. And you can also tell by the way his employees interacted with him, that he's not out there as the president lording over you. He's out there as How can I help you as a servant leader, and it stuck with me? So a year later, when I met someone like him that was burgeoning in their career, he was a business unit manager within manufacturing. And I was like, You remind me of Shane. I made the introduction. I've never done this before. But I was like, I feel like I need to introduce the two of you. And so I did. And he Shane mentored this individual for a year. Oh, wow. Three years later, his wife joined my board of directors to run one of the executive level groups that I run, and she provided so much great insight. She became a speaker for our organization. And it was just such a great opportunity to see how it pays back in dividends. On the back end, did I enter into that relationship? Knowing that this is going to happen, no. Did it feel good to see the fruits of that labor years later?

Leighann Lovely 40:06

Absolutely. Right. Right. And that has happened to me, throughout the years where, you know, a connection happens, where you're just like, oh my gosh, if I would not have done this, this never would have happened. And it's amazing. We live in a, in a huge world, a gigantic world. But I truly, truly, truly believe. I guess to put it simply, I believe in karma 100%, what you do, does come back to you one way or another, the people you run into today, you have no idea how that or how you influence them, could eventually come back to influence you a year from now 10 years from now. So hey, just think about the next time you're having an interaction with somebody, you know, is it compassion? Is it empathy that you need to remember to use because you have no idea one, what's going on in their lives. And now I'm kind of putting on my HR hat. You know, when you're dealing with employees to you know, you know, be careful, you have no idea what's going on in their lives, and you have no idea what the future holds on an interaction that happens today, and how that might influence your life down the line. And I've had it happen multiple times where something that happened years ago comes back and I'm like, wow, how could this possibly have I've come full circle like this. And that, that's amazing. It's an amazing story. It's just, but that that is such as the world and it's, I shouldn't say it's such as the world, because I believe that you have you have the power to influence your surroundings. And I just, I truly believe in being a genuine good person. You know, there are there are assholes out there that we have to, you know, and they're found out but you know, I truly believe that people who who run their lives and live their lives with true good intent. They have good things happen.

Kistin Gupta 42:30

It's easy when life is easy. Yeah. When things are. It's real hard when things aren't good. Right? Right.

Leighann Lovely 42:37

I know. But at the, into the

Kistin Gupta 42:39

Victimhood, it's so easy to slip back into. It's all their faults, and now owning our truth, and not owning. So we're not saying that this is easy, no,

Leighann Lovely 42:49

but usually hard for me is the other way. But having people like you, and networks, makes it easier to stay accountable. And be reminded

Kistin Gupta 43:04

In our community to remind us.

Leighann Lovely 43:07

Yes, Oh, God, yes. What Christian, we are coming to time, if somebody wanted to reach out to you for help with employment or help with filling jobs, or they wanted to learn more about your podcast. How would they go about doing that?

43:24

There aren't a whole lot of Kristin Gupta's out there in the world. Yet. When I got married to my husband, I was the second Kristin Gupta that I could find when you googled it when I googled myself, so you can find my LinkedIn profile. You can also email me at Kristen that gupta@lhh.com l H H stands for Lee Hecht, Harrison and Kristen by the way I spelled the right way. Which is k r i s t i n for those of you that spell en ny n and every other which way you're okay to we are all the same family. That's Kristin.Gupta@lhh.com. And for more info on our Defining Leaders Group, you can go to Kristinadvising.com.

Leighann Lovely 44:17

Thank you. Excellent. And I have one more question Question of the season and you did not get a preview of this question. I am sorry I normally give previous. So the question that I am asking everybody this season if there is one thing that you could change about your job, if anything, what would it be?

Kistin Gupta 44:39

I love my job and love what I do. That's a really good question then and I will say I wish I'd had this sooner.

Leighann Lovely 44:51

That's awesome. I absolutely love it. I absolutely love it. So for you out there who are considering jumping into a recruitment job. Hey, maybe the grass is greener awesome. Kristen, thank you so very much for talking with me today.

Kistin Gupta 45:09

Thank you. Yeah, great conversation.

Leighann Lovely 45:12

Contact Info -

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/kristin-gupta

E-mail - Kristin.Gupta@lhh.com

Website - kristinadvising.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, company, job, pandemic, business, talk, massive layoffs, employees, years, hr, gupta, executive, happened, kristin, acolytes, hiring, generations, world, podcast, leaders

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Season 2 Finale

After 17 years at the same company, Leslie found herself looking for a new path, she is now the Founder and Principal of Team OC3, LLC where she is an executive coach working with C-suite executives and senior leaders. She is also an author, blogger and so much more. This was an amazing conversation with a brilliant, strong woman dedicated to empowering greatness in others.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling; our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:08

Leslie O'Connell ignites the purpose, potential and performance of leaders and teams. As founder and principal of Team OC three. Leslie is an executive coach, communications counselor, and catalyst. She works with C suite executives, senior leaders and rising leaders of progressive midsize and growing organizations to envision the culture they want to create, adapt and innovate through nonstop change and empower greatness in their people. Leslie coaches leaders to grow their emotional intelligence, amplify their competence, and break through barriers that are holding them back. Leslie built a successful career as a senior Corporate Communications leader for Fortune 100 companies and a large global agency leading teams as large as 45. In addition to executive coaching, Leslie is an author, blogger, workshop facilitator, and speaker on leadership and professional branding. Beyond work, Leslie thrives on power walks, working out yoga, volunteering, to fight food insecurities, and to adapt the arts and planning her family's next travel adventure. This is going to be an amazing, fun conversation, and I'm looking forward to it.

Leighann Lovely 02:33

Welcome Leslie, I'm so excited to have you join me today.

Leslie O'Connell 02:37

Oh, it's just a pleasure to be with you, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 02:40

So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Leslie O'Connell 02:45

Sure. Well, I think of myself as a believer in best days at work and creating more best days at work for leaders for employees, for teams for companies. And what that means is both the experience of day to day work and the performance, the potential the purpose of organizations. I'm an executive coach and communications consultant. Today, I run my own firm called Team OC three. And I also work with a firm called Cavendish Vernal as an executive coach and consultant. However, my career has spanned more than 25 years as an executive communications leader in Fortune 100 organizations also with a large global agency. And I've led teams from a few people, to as many as 45. So I've been where leaders have been, and I bring that perspective to what I do.

Leighann Lovely 03:51

That's, awesome. And I love that you start off by saying, How did you say that, bringing best days, every day.

Leslie O'Connell 04:00

I believe there are more, there can be more best days at work, because when it comes down to it, you know, we all want to be productive at work. But we want to feel good about what we do. And you know, when we go home and talk to our partner or kids or dog, you know, we want to say hey, you know, I feel good that you know I did this today or we did that today or that this week we delivered that.

Leighann Lovely 04:27

What is that? You know, oh, it's it's Monday, you know, I It drives me crazy. Like what is it like the case of the Mondays? It drives me crazy when people say that, because I've never experienced that. I look forward to Mondays like I love my job. I love my I love what I do for a living. And I always wondered when people were like, God, Monday's coming work is coming and I'm like, Wait, do you not like what you do and if you don't know Why? Why aren't you changing it? Right?

Leslie O'Connell 05:04

Yeah, we have choice for sure. And I know what you mean, I have a former coworker who you know, had like the Sunday sads, you know, it would get to be five o'clock on a Sunday night. And he would, you know, sort of like, go into this slump of, you know, the work week is ahead, and you know, that would only then the work, the week would get better as it went on. But truly, if we are living into our strengths, living into our talents, if we're in an environment where we can grow and thrive, our workweek should be, you know, really good. And, you know, sure we have life outside of work, but it's a part of who we are. And let's make the best of it.

Leighann Lovely 05:48

Well, we spend how much time at work, right? And you would, you would think that people would thrive to try to have a second family at, you know, where they work. And I just, I don't understand the people who go to work and are miserable, because you spend 40 hours,

Leslie O'Connell 06:09

plus, or more, right? With the 60,

Leighann Lovely 06:13

right, doing that job with those individuals that you're doing it with, if you're in an office, or if you're not, on teams, meetings, Zoom meetings, on one way or another, interacting with these people. And if you don't like them, it's going to be a miserable 40 plus hours every week that you're spending.

Leslie O'Connell 06:33

Absolutely. And you know, a lot of that, to me comes from the tone that is set for a company and organization, the tone that is set from the top, the environment that leaders at the top want to create. But it also becomes very personal. And you know how employees in a team interact, how their leader sets a tone and sets a direction for the team to?

Leighann Lovely 07:04

Yeah, very interesting. So you're out on your own. You have your business owner, team, OC three. So when did you decide, you know, hey, I'm going to do this, I'm going to take the entrepreneurial leap. And I'm going to go out on my own. Was there a defining moment for you that but you knew or was it the progression of? Yeah, this is, this is going to work? I'm going to kind of dip my toe and what? How did that evolve?

Leslie O'Connell 07:39

Yeah, so at the end of 2019, my role was eliminated at the company that I worked for, for 17 years as a vice president. And for the first time in my career, since college, I had no place to go on Monday morning, that first Monday in January. And that was a big a big hit for sure. Because I love what I do. And I love work. I thrive on the community and the connection, the people and the impact that we all create at work. And so for me, it was a journey, there wasn't a moment that it was like, gosh, now I'm going to go and start my own business. I had worked for large companies for close to 30 years. And that was my second home. And so for me that first year became a year of reimagination. It was a year of exploring, discovering, I really committed myself to networking, getting acquainted with a new and broader circle of people. And those people were so instrumental for me in helping me recognize talents that I didn't fully appreciate in myself, and in how I could parlay those talents in a different way than I had in the past. I was also at a point in my career where I felt like I had accomplished really most of what I had wanted to accomplish in the corporate world, and yet, I didn't quite know how to open that next door. So that journey of reimagination took me to an international coaching program. I earned my ACC my associate certified coach credential through the international coaching Federation. I started on a coaching path with an organization and just kind of opened windows open doors along the way and so about a year and a half ago in early 20 21 I said why not. And this was based on the encouragement of friends, colleagues, others who had gone this path before me, and launched my own LLC, through networking started to build that core of clients. And it's just grown and unfolded from there. And there is no turning back. Leann it is the place that I am meant to be.

Leighann Lovely 10:30

That's amazing. That's, that's awesome. So it was kind of an organic growth. With intent.

Leslie O'Connell 10:39

That's a great way to put it organic with intent, it was sort of informed hunch midship to use a phrase that one of my bosses has used over the years is that you gather data, you gather information, you equip yourself, and then it becomes more clear where that path is leading.

Leighann Lovely 11:02

Yeah, yeah, it's like, walking in the dark towards the light. And the closer you get to the light, eventually, it becomes clear as to where you're going. Absolutely. That's, that's absolutely amazing. And, you know, I think that all of us have had those pivotal moments in our lives where we're, we're kind of in the dark as to Okay, where do we go from here. And I think that the worlds collectively together, just experienced in a kind of something similar to that we, you know, the pandemic hit, and we all went, Okay, this will be over in a couple of weeks. And then when a couple of weeks went by, during two months, and we're all kind of going, you know, we're walking in the dark going, Okay, well, it's not going to be a couple of weeks. Clearly, it's not going to be a couple of months. Now, we're, you know, we went two years to finally, like, Okay, well, the world's open again, now what?

Leslie O'Connell 11:56

Right, and, you know, it brings to mind an experience. A few years ago, maybe four or five years ago, I accompanied my daughter and her confirmation class on their, what they call their east coast road trip, the east coast of Wisconsin visiting different parks and camping, and that is very much out of my comfort zone, I am not a sleep in a tent under the stars kind of gal. And then the end of the trip was a caving expedition, where we went 40 feet underground in a real live cave. And, you know, we're at times, we were scooting along on our bellies in a wet and muddy cave. So, you know, damp, cold, wet, you know, I was game I knew what I was getting into, sort of, but by the time those two hours had elapsed, like I could not wait to get out. And, and it's a metaphor of, you know, like, the only way to it, the only way to the light is through it. And so I've used that metaphor of the cave experience as not only my own career and career turning points. But as I've also worked with people who are making career transitions, either by choice or because a choice has been thrust upon them. People feel very much at odds and in the dark at those junctures and, and so it is about finding those moments of light that lead you more into the light. And as you shared, the world has experienced a really massive, global universal cave experience. And we're coming back into the light now.

Leighann Lovely 13:54

Yeah, that's in Wow. I don't know that I would do the whole you two hours in the cave. That I commend you for that.

Leslie O'Connell 14:08

You had, I was surrounded by a bunch of 1617 year olds who are like, come on, you can do it, you know. And while they're not my peers, I was definitely feeling the peer pressure.

Leighann Lovely 14:20

Oh my god. Wow, that's and that, hey, and you, you're able to take that, that experience and utilize that and or not utilize, but I mean, everything that we experience, we're able to somehow, I guess, not everything but use those life experiences to explain or to, you know, give examples in some way of of the professional world or real world you know, examples of things it's that was just a great analogy that you trying to say that in a very bad way, there we go.

Leslie O'Connell 15:02

Well, I mean, clearly, clearly the it was the cave experience for me to, you know, to lose my job. And to then really think about how do I reimagine reinvent the next stage of my career? And so, yeah, it that cave experience was was a metaphor for my, my own career experience. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 15:29

Yeah, that's awesome. So speaking of your career now, tell me a little bit about what that is, what what are you? How are you working with companies? How are you? You know, tell me a little bit about what team OC three does?

Leslie O'Connell 15:50

Sure. So we've focused on executive coaching, and that's on a one on one basis with leaders. And that can be C suite. I have CEO, clients, senior other senior executives, but also aspiring leaders to people who are perhaps taking on leadership for the very first time. And of course, nobody hands you the how to manual when that happens. Or, you know, leaders who have been in place for a number of years who just know that they want to grow, grow their impact, grow their effectiveness, grow their capabilities. And so we do that, both with one on one coaching of leaders and executives, as well as through facilitated workshop and retreat experiences. The reason that team is in my business name is that I do team up with other experts in organizational development, learning and development, and who are coaches and consultants as well, so that we bring the right mix of skills and capabilities and experiences to each particular client.

Leighann Lovely 17:12

That's, that's amazing. So if you're, if you starting real world example, example here. So if I were to approach you and say, Hey, Leslie, I really want to level up. Can you help me? How would you go about beginning with with me?

Leslie O'Connell 17:28

Yeah, so we start with a discovery. And that can be as informal conversational to as formal as is appropriate or relevant for the individuals. So for some, that's just getting acquainted asking a series of questions to understand where they're at in their career, what kind of environment they're in what has changed in their organization, often what they see as an opportunity or a pivot point, many of the executives I work with, have recently made a change, take it on expanded responsibilities or a different role either in the organization are in a new organization. And as you said, want to upskill up level, their capability as a leader. Or it can be more formalized to Leanne, where we do a 360 assessment. So you know, having an individual select a group of 15 to 20, individuals who are direct reports, peers, or superiors, and have them complete a formal online survey, that then synthesizes the feedback and the themes from those individuals about what they see, as my clients strengths are and areas of opportunity or growth, that often reveals blind spots for someone both on the positive and on the constructive side. Sometimes people don't realize their strengths and how their strengths are having a positive impact. And they also maybe aren't aware or don't fully appreciate some of the blind spots that they have. And then there's some times in in between where I've done, you know, just one on one interviews with three or four individuals who work with my client to get a sense again of strengths, blind spots, opportunities, things that can help an individual gain more self awareness, and then determine how they want to use spread information to grow and improve.

Leighann Lovely 20:04

Interesting. So are you. So does the individual usually approach you? Or is it an organization, because because I don't like, for me, you're talking about, you know, interviewing, like, either superiors or people who report would report to me if I had, you know, a group of individuals report to me. And that's, that's so awesome that, you know, you could go interview them on a confidential basis and say, you know, I want to talk to you about, you know, LeighAnn lovely, and her management style, and the goal is to help her understand better, what she's great at, understand better what she's mediocre at, and where maybe some blind spots are, are that she's not aware of that we can help her get better at or, for me, I, you know, I'm a strong, confident individual, I'd be like, Yeah, do that, because that can only make me better. But I gotta, I gotta guess that there are some people out there, that would be like, No, you're no, you're not going to do that. Like,

Leslie O'Connell 21:10

yeah, and it does, it does take a willingness to be a bit vulnerable, to put oneself in a learning mode, and to welcome that reality check, if you will. And, and it's not always easy, even for confident leaders to hear what others have to say about them. And, you know, no 360 assessments are when they're done in a inappropriately professional way. They are very growth oriented, with a sense of kindness, of learning, of understanding how to grow and, and so, and that's really the role of a professional coach, or a professional organizational development consultant who is trained in how to do that in a way that is helpful and productive for an individual. But as you say, this isn't for someone who is really reluctant, because they're not at a point of readiness to grow.

Leighann Lovely 22:34

Right? Right, they're not going to anything, you say to them, they're there, it's going to be, they're going to take as well, they're gonna probably not handle the feedback, well,

Leslie O'Connell 22:45

they'll be defensive, and so, you know, it's sort of like, you know, working out or working on our health or physical fitness is that we have to be ready to be all in and to make the commitment that this is something that's going to benefit me. I'm going to stick with this because a coaching relationship does take a lot of work and commitment. And while there's a lot of powerful aha moments that do come in the midst of a coaching, conversation, a coaching session, the work happens in between it comes as an individual reflects on their learnings, applies new techniques, on the job or at home in what they do. So it absolutely needs readiness and commitment on the part of that leader or that employee.

Leighann Lovely 23:57

Interesting. Very, so. The people who are engaging you are individuals, they're not typically companies.

Leslie O'Connell 24:05

Actually, it's both. It's a both and so I do work with individuals. And often that happens when they're at a career pivot point, seeking to get more out of their career and wanting to understand how they can better grow and position themselves for the future. And I work with organizations where, you know, from the CEO to other senior executives, and that can be an individual basis, I met a CEO who came to me and just was taking on newly expanded role and really wanted to work with a coach to help grow her and her skills. And, or it can be, you know, a group I'm with the firm, Cavendish Bernal that I mentioned, we're working with an organization where seven of us coaches are coaching a group of 14 leaders in the organization. Each of us has two or three clients. And then we're also then able to distill systemic themes that are either helping or hindering the organization to. So so it happens on all points of that individual to organization.

Leighann Lovely 25:40

That's it. Okay, so now, you just touched on something that I, that I have to dig into a little bit. So companies, you know, obviously, culture, and you and I were just talking about this starts with managers, starts with leaders starts from the top, because everybody at you know, in, you know, they what, shit rolls downhill, right? To throw out something that's, you know.

Leslie O'Connell 26:11

That's right. Yeah, yeah. I call it the shadow of a leader. And so that's the shadow of the CEO, the shadow of the senior leadership team, the shadow of the team's manager, that shadow casts a light for better or for worse on the organization, the department, the unit, the team.

Leighann Lovely 26:37

So working with, you know, the senior leaders in the executive, the C suite, if you are, if you're a business, you're an organization wanting to make a true impact on the culture, you know, and I've seen this mistake happen, where they're like, Oh, we're working on the culture, we're working to change the culture, and they're working on. And I always use manufacturing floor, or they're working, and I shouldn't always use that example. But you know, they're like, Oh, we're out there, we're trying to rally the troops. And I go, Okay, that's great that you, it's awesome that you're trying to get the, you know, you know, the main population of your organization on board with this, but you still have, you know, a major problem with your C suite that doesn't want to engage with the employees, or, you know, they still are acting the same way that they were, before you took this on this initiative. Sorry, but nothing is going to change, it's going to default back to where it was over and over and over and over again, because of exactly what you just said, you know, the shadow of you know, that they're always going to revert back because it eventually just continues to come back through the Manage upper management, and they are the people who drive, ultimately, decisions, culture, attitudes, because everybody's looking to them for their leadership.

Leslie O'Connell 28:07

Absolutely, we all look up, it's human nature. And, you know, we're looking at what is what is the CEO? What is he or she doing? What is his or her approach? I'll take the example of an organization that we're working with, and there was a CEO change about a year and a half ago, and the previous CEO had very command and control sort of approach to leadership and management, it was about telling, not asking, it was about directing, it was not an environment of dialogue and openness. There wasn't a lot of transparency. And so the organization largely followed suit, there were pockets where where individual leaders were trying to create more of a servant leadership approach, but that is only going to take root you know, on a more segmented team basis, because ultimately the shadow of that command and control senior leader is influencing his or her leadership team and how they respond and are rewarded. And, and so on. And then a new CEO was appointed who has a vision for much more of an emotionally intelligence based servant leadership. Inclusive, egalitarian I kind of culture that she wants to engender, because she has done that at previous organizations. And she sees the value to the satisfaction, retention, attraction, growth of employees. And so it's a different way of thinking. Culture does not happen with a flip of a switch, it takes a very concerted effort across multiple levels, and needs to really filter through an organization over time. But she has invited coaching for herself for members of her leadership team. And she's introduced workshops for their leadership group at large a group of about 65 people who are learning leadership in a different kind of way.

Leighann Lovely 31:04

So, and that's awesome. I mean, that that is amazing. And, but so here's the, you know, the question that immediately pops into my head, which is one yes, how long, but to, you know, what is going to be the turnover ratio of because, you know, obviously, you get a new, a new person in there, who's going to flip everything on its head. Now, depending on how long that other person was in there running things, the way that they were running, you have a group of people who have gotten so conditioned to do it one way, right. And we are, we are our conditioning, we are, I mean, that is routine

Leslie O'Connell 31:49

Absolutely. So in this particular example, three of her leadership, team members opted to leave the organization, I, you know, they started their own job search, you know, by choice, not by invitation, just because they realize that, you know, this is not the way I've been conditioned, or the way that I value leading. And, you know, you can't say one style is right or wrong, they're different. And they have different purposes. And so, so in this case, you know, three of the 12, senior leadership, team members opted to leave. And that itself starts to create a regeneration across the organization, too.

Leighann Lovely 32:45

Right. And that's, and, and what you said, not one or the other, necessarily is wrong, if it's conducive to a healthy work environment. I would have to say that nowadays, people don't want the do as I say, not as I do, or the barking of orders, more and more people are looking for that more inclusive, you know, environment a, the world's been flipped on its head, they're there people are demanding a much help, you know, happier, easier work environments.

Leslie O'Connell 33:23

Absolutely. You know, and people are at a point of speaking up of voicing what matters to them in the workplace more than ever before. You know, certainly that has been a part of more progressive organizations, but you know, people really want more out of their workplace. You know, I, I talk about the five be used, if you will, that people want to one they want to believe in a vision in a purpose. They want to feel like there is a mission for their organization or their team. They want to belong, they want to feel that they are included and take pride in belonging to something that is bigger than ourselves. People want to be heard, you know, they do want to have a voice, and that that voice is acknowledged and respected. I think employees recognize that they're not always going to be the decision makers. The decision isn't always going to go their way. But they want to at least have their feedback, their voice heard. They want to be stretched. You know, I think we all want to grow and thrive and And, and expand our capabilities or take on different or new responsibilities over time. And then finally, and this goes back to that, you know, what makes the best day of at work is that we want to feel like we're, uh, we're the difference, we want to be the difference, you know that what we do matters that has an impact, it makes life better for our customers or our clients or, you know, those who are relying on us. And so, you know, that sense of believing belonging being heard being stretched? Being the difference? I think those are expectations today of employees?

Leighann Lovely 35:56

Absolutely. I mean, first, you don't go into management's? Well, some people get kind of pushed into management, and then they ended up being under trained and don't know what they're doing, which obviously, is the, you know, the cycle. What was it, I think I just recently threw this out there, this number might have changed, you might know. But it was like 8% of the people who move into management are actually trained, the rest, have no have no management, actual management training, that doesn't go for necessarily the C suite, but you know, just a general manage manager role. And the point that I'm trying to get to, though is that typically people who choose to get trained, move, and have an intentional, you know, drive to move into management, the goal that they have is to make an impact, try to make change, to make things better to be able to walk away at the end of the day and say, I've accomplished, you know, what my goal was to accomplish today, and I've made an impact in some way or another, right? It does, absolutely, and it doesn't matter. It's not, this is not industry, specific, it doesn't matter if we're talking about a service industry, or if we're talking about a non service industry distribution company, or, you know, manufacturing company, and you're in the management role, if you, you know, typically people who choose to manage other people, they, the goal that they have at the beginning, is that I want to be able to help the people that I'm managing to be able to lift them up to do their job the best they can do. So at the end of the day, we're all moving in the same direction. But it often happens with organizations, where managers are not being given the tools that they need to do that. And then you see, these cultures just crumble, they just they start to fall apart. And you see pissed off managers, who are creating volatile environments for the people that they're managing, because they don't have the answers. They're not being able to, to provide them with what they need. And it's just becomes this systemic issue and problem throughout many companies and in our society of, of, you know, people who are just not being treated the way that they should be treated, because even upper management isn't paying attention to the fact that they're not giving what they need to those managers.

Leslie O'Connell 38:38

Absolutely, you know, culture takes a lot of vision and care and feeding

Leighann Lovely 38:45

and absolute intention.

Leslie O'Connell 38:49

Intent for sure. And, and, you know, I've throughout my career, I have worked in across industries, my career started in manufacturing, at quad graphics, you know, a printing company here in Wisconsin. And I have to say that reflecting on the nearly 30 years of my career, the best leadership training I got was at quad graphics. Now that was under the leadership at that time of the founder, Harry Quadracci who was an enlightened leader himself. And he created in a egalitarian environment that was, you know, whether people were considered were management in the traditional sense of the office leaders or leaders on a press on a binder in the finishing area. We all came together for managment leadership training, to learn how to bring out the best in people. And he made it Harry Quadracci, he made a very significant and intentional investment in leadership development for his people. And he modelled it himself. And, and, you know, that's the kind of commitment and vision that it takes to really drive a positive culture.

Leighann Lovely 40:35

And that's great. And you hear about, you hear about these diamonds in a rough all the time in where you, you've got owners who walk around and personally think everybody at their company, from the person who cleans the bathroom, to the President, you know, of the organization, he treats every single individual, he or she, I don't like to say he, he or she, you know, owners of companies who walk around and they treat every single human at that company, the same. It's an it's you don't hear it often. But you do hear of these leaders from from the past, and those are the people that we should all be modeling our businesses, you know, modeling them against, you know.

Leslie O'Connell 41:24

Absolutely, there's great role models. And, and I do think that there are progressive, enlightened leaders and companies today that are are initiating positive culture, evolution. And it's a, you know, it's a super challenging time, as you started our conversation. We have come through a cave that disrupted life as we know it, and that has challenged and stretched leaders and companies in ways that, you know, none of us anticipated. But what I am seeing is that, as companies as organizations have regained their footing, leaders are taking advantage of this time to invest in their employee development and leadership development, recognizing that to attract, grow, keep talent in an ever competitive environment. That a positive culture, a good workplace, having good leaders really matter.

Leighann Lovely 42:51

Yes. And, you know, my day job, I'm in staffing, there was a time when. And this like, just shot me through the heart when I would have companies come to me and I, I was, you know, they would say to me, Well, we've we've actually stopped doing the employee onboarding process until the until the employees here for a week. And I'm like, what, what do you mean, you're not, you know, you're not grading the employee, when they start on their first day, like, no wonder they're not staying for more than a week, like, and they're like, well, that that was why we stopped doing it, because they just weren't staying here for a week. And then we were wasting all of our time. And I'm like, well, that doesn't mean that you need to stop crit. Like, you've obviously got something else going on. I mean, it's, but you're right, we are finally companies are finally really okay, that's not working either. Like, I know the things that I hear the things that I deal with. But I think that now we're out the other side of the pandemic. At least I've I've done with this. I've moved on, I think the most of the world has. I think companies have finally started to figure out this was eye opening. It truly was eye opening that they can't You can't be you know, you no longer can say oh, yeah, number two employee come over here, please. Number 22. employee, you actually have to know who they are. You actually have to put you know, stock in them, you actually have to treat them like humans. And when they say hey, I've got a family emergency, don't make them feel guilty about it. Because you know what, you make them feel guilty. They're gonna start thinking about going somewhere else. And right now, they've got a million different places to go.

Leslie O'Connell 44:42

Yeah, the environment today and for the future, you know, based on just demographic, the demographic wave of changes that was then only accelerated by the pandemic and how the pandemic caused people to think do currently about what sacrifices they were making or their families were making, that people do have more choices today. And there's not a line of 10 individuals waiting to fill that role. And so, you know, for the better, it's been a wake up call to organizations, to companies, that investing in people investing in leaders really does matter. And that it is a not only a competitive differentiator, when it comes to talent, it's a competitive differentiator when it comes to the performance and the results that an organization can deliver. Right, because how an organization treats its employees is absolutely mirrored in how those employees treat customers.

Leighann Lovely 45:56

oh, absolutely. And there was, and when I say, you know, a lot of positions, you know, there, there was a time when, you know, the only positions open were just, you know, the general laborer, those were lacking in that, but we're not just talking about positions being open at that level we're talking about is, you know, like, for controller position C suite level positions at, across the board, I mean, it's positions at every level within organizations, starting with President CEO, controllers, you know, tax we're talking about across the board. So, I mean, it's people like you who are going in and doing the leadership training is, is, in order for companies to retain and keep employees, if you don't have those, you know, that that level of culture, your, the companies are going to fail, they're gonna, they're, they're gonna lose great people, to other companies who are investing in their people. And it's

Leslie O'Connell 47:00

Right there, and then it also, you know, I think, it also becomes an oh, we're just going to have to increase wages or increase salaries. And, you know, there are countless surveys that show that employees will select a great leader, a great team, over salary when they have, you know, comparable offers, you know, when they feel compatibility, respect, the opportunity to grow, you know, when those qualities are present, they will take those kinds of opportunities over the, you know, the salary that might be five or 10%. More. I mean, I can I use myself and many of my colleagues over the years as examples, there are times where I made career changes specifically, and took a step back in salary, because I was motivated by the team, the opportunity, the long term growth, opportunity of the organization of my role of my potential. And so, to me, I saw that as an investment play, and in my experience, it played out. Along the way, that I earned more, I had more responsibility, I grew faster, you know, as I made those choices, too. So it's not always about the money if people feel that they're being compensated adequately.

Leighann Lovely 48:42

Absolutely, absolutely. I completely agree. Now, we are coming to time. So the question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Leslie O'Connell 48:59

Well, I'm all about like, start early, start often. So I would go back to myself at age 22. And, gosh, you know, try to pack, you know, three decades of wisdom into a sentence. But, um, you know, in short, I would tell myself, you know, be kind to yourself, and be bold. You know, I grew up with a type A father, who instilled in me, the desire to be a perfectionist, always get it right. And the reality is, none of us are ever going to get it right. And so in some ways that held me back from taking risks from believing in myself along the way, and you know, and then when we think about it, we often To say, things to ourselves that we would never say to somebody else, you know, the self talk that we have, is often often skews negative more than positive. And so that's where the Be kind to yourself. Lastly comes from is cut yourself some slack and be generous with recognizing the goodness in, in yourself and, and acknowledging the warts too. But balancing that self critique, and again, having worked with many different clients, we all have a voice on our shoulder that is talking back to us way more than it should be. So be kind, be bold.

Leighann Lovely 50:55

That's awesome. I love it. And yeah, I mean, absolutely. Because you know, what, 22 year old me a 22 year old. Most people could use that advice.

Leslie O'Connell 51:13

Well, I hope it I hope as I am able to, and I do work with some young people today too, as an aspect of my business I. In fact, I've recently worked with a young woman who is preparing for medical school interviews and you know, talk about a pivotal life moment. And another young woman actually who is preparing for grad school interviews, and it actually she's the performer and musical performer. So auditions too. But as I coach them, I am helping to encourage that idea of self awareness, self reflection and kindness to self.

Leighann Lovely 52:02

Yeah. Yep. Awesome. Awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

52:10

Yeah, a couple of ways. Thanks for asking. Certainly visit my website, which is www.teamOC3.com. So T E A M O C 3 .com. Or my email, which is Leslie@Teamoc3.com. Or, lastly Leslie@teamos3. The it's L E S L I E.

Leighann Lovely 52:43

Excellent. Well, and that will also be in the show notes. So if anybody does want to reach out to you, they can find it in the show notes as well. But Leslie, I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. It's been an awesome conversation.

Leslie O'Connell 52:55

And the privilege has been mine and thank you so much.

Leighann Lovely 52:58

Thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Leslie

Website – www.teamoc3.com

LinkedIn – http://www.linkedin.com/in/leslieoconnell/

E-mail – Leslie@teamOC3.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, organization, leaders, employees, companies, individual, leslie, culture, grow, coaching, absolutely, leadership, career, executive coach, ceo, pandemic, role, management, team

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Claudia Miller is a sought-after career coach, she is a brilliant woman. She has dedicated her career and focused her efforts on working with women and women of color. She has been featured in Forbes, MSNBC, Thrive Global, and Business Insider putting her in their top global list of Top Innovative Career Coaches. This is definitely a conversation you should check out!

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:08

Claudia Miller is a sought after career coach for women in tech, and she helps her clients land fulfilling jobs at a senior level. She also partners with companies and organizations in identifying rising stars within their organization, and providing strategic insight and support in developing a leadership and talent pipeline with a focus on women and women of color. Due to her efforts, she worked with top Fortune 500 clients and partnered with World Business Chicago in developing a workforce development strategy in coordination with the city of Chicago's efforts in decreasing unemployment rates for persons of color. She's also the creator, and host of roadmap to the executive suite podcast. Due to her clients success. She has been featured multiple times in Forbes, MSNBC, thrive global, and Business Insider, I put her in their Top Global list of top innovative career coaches. This is going to be an awesome conversation today. And I look forward to it.

Leighann Lovely 02:21

Claudia, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you here.

Claudia Miller 02:26

I'm excited to be here. Leighann, especially with some of the topics we'll be discussing today.

Leighann Lovely 02:30

Yeah, so why don't we jump right in? And, you know, why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Claudia Miller 02:36

I am a career coach for women in tech, and I help my clients land fulfilling jobs. And since COVID, I've been able to help clients get jobs within 90 days or less. And on average, my clients get a 56% in salary increases. So not only do I work with women, but I also work with organizations and companies that are looking to develop their leadership and talent pipeline, and primarily with more women and women of color in senior leadership roles.

Leighann Lovely 03:03

That's amazing. And, you know, obviously, with the onset of the pandemic, things have, you know, really affected women, especially women of color. So it's it's such an amazing thing that you're doing, have you always you know, had a pull towards, you know, the kind of that coaching aspect kind of that has it always been a you know, kind of a path that you've wanted to go on, or tell me a little bit about that.

Claudia Miller 03:32

Definitely around the mentorship, I wouldn't say necessarily coaching because what I didn't really know about coaching until later in life, but I just called it mentorship and helping people out. And I tend to be very resourceful. So when I don't know anything, I'll just say, let me find out. And then somehow I get, you know, the solution or various solutions and see, hey, let's test out to see what works. And you know, you mentioned you were struggling with A, B and C, here's some ideas that I have, you know, why don't we test them out and see how that works? later than I realized, well, that's a form of coaching and kind of once I knew about and I started mentoring people and coaching them, then that's where the birth of my company started from have more on the coaching aspect in relation to careers and leadership roles.

Leighann Lovely 04:22

That's awesome. That's amazing. And you're right, you know, coaching, what, it really became the boom of coaching I guess I've seen more and more of that popping up over the last couple of really like what the last five years and just in extreme popping up as more and more people have kind of gone out on their own and figured out that there's a definite need, you know, in the world, not only for individual coaching, but also for going into organizations and, you know, coaching on a large scale of, Hey, where's that need is there, you know, specific department needs is there Watching have of actual managers? Because what and I throw these statistics out all the time, but how many managers go into management positions and don't actually have any training? Right? So I mean, that's, that's amazing. So you mentioned, you know, obviously the women of color women being, you know, some of these, these individuals who are kind of have historically been, I guess, overlooked. And now, with the onset of the pandemic, unfortunately, women over men, kind of a large, a larger number of those during the pandemic dropped out of the labor market, right? And what statistically speaking, or I should say, not statistically speaking, but when you run down all of the reasons, there's valid reasons as to why so many women dropped out, you know, a lot of the homemaking duties fell on on some of the women. And then when you really dive into those numbers, it disproportionately hit women of color. Most. So I guess, how has that really changed your business and how you are helping these women level back up, or, you know, because some of them were struggling to even go back into the job market at what they were making prior to the pandemic? So, you know, I'd love to hear your input on that.

Claudia Miller 06:35

Yeah, and you kind of touched on a few things. So one of the things that I've noticed, definitely women and women of color have been the biggest population that has been impacted with COVID, when it comes to the workforce. And because of those responsibilities, I mean, the working from home plus kids online learning, I mean, I can't even imagine having a toddler and having them sit down in front of a laptop while you're still working in managing the rest of the housework. So it definitely fell upon women. And they've been the mostly impacted. But from what I've seen, and how I've seen the change since COVID, especially when it comes to my clients is they've kind of had that pivotal moment when they realize that their job could be done from home, or they're looking for more of that fulfillment, they started to realize, you know, without the hustle and bustle of commuting and picking up the kids, they finally had some time to realize that they can do their work successfully, while working from home and still take care of some of the house things that we tend to do, like, Oh, I'm doing laundry while I'm getting on the meeting. And I may be having some food in the crock pot for later for dinner today. And I'm still performing at the level I was already doing at the office or even more at this point. So there definitely came that reflection moment of them realizing, you know, what, I want more of a fulfilling job, I want to be challenged. And I want to be an organization that values me, but also my priorities. And my philosophy is, you know, we work but there are some non-negotiables, like family, like family is that, for me, at least is that's a non-negotiable. So if I can do the job successfully, and there's no need for me to go into the office, why do I need to go into the office, and it allows me to be flexible with my family. So it's really having that understanding from them and saying, You know what, I'm ready for the next step in my career, I'm looking for that fulfillment, while still having that flexibility where the output and the work will still be there or even higher levels, because I'm able to be more productive with it. And that's where a lot of my clients now are coming to say, Hey, I've been at this company for so long. They're asking us to work from go back into the office. And there's no need for me to go into this. I've been doing this job successfully for two years. And you know what, I had been passed up already for promotions multiple times. And I've come to realize that I'm ready for a change. I'm ready for something.

Leighann Lovely 09:05

that's awesome. And and I have I've heard that story. My day job. I'm you know, I'm in the recruiting, I'm in the hiring. I'm in the so I'm in the thick of it on a daily basis. And and you're right. It's one why are they being passed up to if we are we are capable the world has has now shown us that we are capable of doing work at home and yeah, right now I have you know, I have my child upstairs. I'm fortunate enough to actually have my husband upstairs with her so she's not running down here. Do you know Hey, Mommy, Hey, Mommy, and she's four. But we have shown that that we're capable of working from home men and women alike are you know, very much capable of working from home? Now, so here's, here's a question that I pose, you're you're working with these individuals, but on the company side, because you also go in and you've done work with, I mean top Fortune 500 clients and and companies and you know, so when these organizations come to you and say, yep, we think that we want to bring them back into the office, are we? What is the advice that you're giving to those organizations? What is the, you know, the reaction? Or the conversation, you sit down and say, Well, wait a second?

Claudia Miller 10:40

Great question. So when usually companies, you know, I work with them, they'll say, Well, how can we move more women into leadership roles? What do we need to do to retain our top employees? And how can we attract that top talent? So that way, they not only want to work here, but they stay here. So one of the things I look into as well, let's Is this an inclusive environment that we currently have for top talent that you're looking to attract and retain? Because there's a difference? And they're both costly? So if you're, I mean, a new probably knows from HR perspective, it costs this amount of money to try to hire someone. And it's even more cost effective to retain them than to always hire and fill that position over and over again. So then it's doing like an audit and assessment, do we have an environment right now that allows women and just overall touchdown to thrive it? Because if you're asking them to come into the office, why is that? Now I understand there's some roles and responsibilities that you do need people to come into the office, via the front desk office, and you need someone to check in or whatever, that it's there are professionals that are needed for someone to be there physically. Now, is this really needed? And if it's, no, it's not needed? Then why do we have that now we can offer that flexibility. I also have clients where they're like, hey, I need to leave the house, I cannot be there. I need to go, I'm an extrovert. I want to be around people. And sometimes I cannot get things done at home. Because Because my husband and my kids are all there, I need to go somewhere else to just kind of have separate both work and business. Now, we want to offer that flexibility. But that's not every not a job doesn't require for someone to be there. Let's really look into the assessment. Is this because you don't trust your employees? Then the question doesn't become should they come in? It's why don't we trust the employees? Is it because systems related? And if there's a systems and processes related? Let's look into that? Is it because you have not hired? Maybe their team is very green and very entry level? Okay, well, then how can we create this conducive environment for them? And maybe we need to do training beforehand before they even start their job. So there are other factors to look into to them just saying, well, we need them to be in the office. Well, if you just need to be in the office, because you want them in the office, then it becomes a different question, then your priority is not to attract and retain top talent, and make it easy for them to do and deliver the work at the level you want them to

Leighann Lovely 13:14

Right, sometimes it's just a mindset. And it's it becomes, well, you just want them in the office, because that's what you've only ever known. And you're not willing to change with the times, which means you're you're never going to be able to have the young, beautiful, amazing talent that is coming into the workforce. Because unfortunately, this is the new workforce that is coming up. This is because that's, that's what they are coming up in this is this is the new and I hate to say it, you know, I people hate this. This is the new normal. I mean, this is now normal.

Claudia Miller 13:59

Yeah, and even like I have clients, and most of my clients already managers, directors, senior directors, so they're between like, late 30s, but usually they're in their 40s and 50s. They're like I been working from home already from this previous company, and I'm looking to go into another company, and they're asking me to go into the office, there's no way I'm doing that. Or two, I've always worked it to the office, and now I've had a taste of the work from home lifestyle, and I'm not going back, there's no turning back. All the work that I do can be done remotely. And I want to be able to do that. And then you know, it opens up other aspects of it. But even like is that just even like the new generation is just overall wellbeing? And everyone like I said, Isn't a different point in their time in their life? And like is are they able to fulfill the job successfully? You know, while working from home? If so, yes, then it also opens up a higher talent pool. We don't just have to hire within our you know area or zip code. Now we can open up to other parts in the US and be able to attract that top talent that otherwise wouldn't be capable of. And now we have access to that. Plus it saves on personal expenses and operating expenses as well.

Leighann Lovely 15:11

You had mentioned I'm, you know, I'm an extrovert, I love the ability to work from home. But there are days where I'm working from home and I'm like, You know what, I really just, I'm gonna go into the office. So I'll work from home in the morning, and then I'll I'll finish out my day in the office, because I'm just going stir crazy and my my little lower level, you know, office, and I'm like, and, and usually those are the days when my daughter's in school, my husband's at work, and I'm sitting here with my crazy dog who's driving me crazy. Who was literally driving me crazy. I'm like, I'm going into the office, like, it's too quiet. But there are people and one of my best friend is one of them. She's she's an accountant. And she's like, Oh, my God, I hate going into the office. Like, she goes, I can do everything I need to do. Quiet. No disturbing, you know, notice urban, nobody coming up saying, Hey, what'd you do this weekend, she's like, it just it stops me from doing my work, I get distracted, I feel like I can get so much more done. And there is definitely a mix of that. And, and as a recruiter, I've talked to some candidates who are like, I will absolutely positively only work remote. And I'm like, Okay, I'll see what I can do. But there is a predominant number of companies out there that are still Nope, they have to at least come into the office two days a week. Like, we just we want that camaraderie, we want to be able to physically be in the same room with each other two days a week. But there are people out there that are 100% remote. So you know, there's definitely a mix. Now. You work with obviously women, women of color. And this, and I absolutely am intrigued by this topic, because speaking with dei experts speaking with it goes, it's so much deeper than just hey, we are we're a company that's diverse. And this is something that I think a lot of companies, a lot of individuals, not just company individuals who have this conversation, they don't understand what it means to have a true, true diversity and inclusive environment. And what that means to the healthiness to the benefits of being diverse, at every level of an organization, not just saying, Oh, we're a manufacturing company. And every you know, we have every buddy, you know, all races and ages and colors and on the manufacturing floor, but everybody in the C suite are white men. That really it doesn't it that really has no impact, you know, truly on the company. And so I would love to talk to you a little bit about, you know, how that impacts and why that's so important to work with women. And I'll leave it at that.

Claudia Miller 18:25

I love that you brought that Leanne, because yes, I mean, and even, there's a report by McKinsey called women in the workplace, and the most recent one is from last year 2021. And it shows that men and women both are hired at the same rates. Now for every 100 men that get promoted 86 women get promoted. And as we move up the career ladder, it creates a discrepancy and anomalies leads to a 75% drop in women in leadership roles. So safety, like you mentioned, on the metro, manufacturing floor and entry level positions, we may see that oh, yeah, we're we're very diverse we have look at our employee pool. And when you look at senior leadership roles, it tells a different story. And overall, not only because it's ethical and moral, and you want to have that diversity, but also the bottom line is it's good for business. I was reading a stat that for companies that have they need to have at least 30% women in leadership roles, but when you hit that mark, and increases 10 to 30% of revenue to your bottom line. So it is not only like I said important to be able to have that and also it it stems in creates more innovation because we have different points of views and allows companies to create different products, different services, offerings, different segmentations for companies or clients you want to attract and it can just overall increase revenue overall. But you know, those are the things that they need to be taken into account when it comes to that. So it's really creating a system that allows for women Women have colored diverse talent to be able to thrive in, but also giving an empowering the employees to be able to do so as well. So I do think that one as employees, we do have a responsibility to also advocate for ourselves. But we also need a company and a system that allows us to thrive. And that can set us up for success if we're willing to do the work. And usually, there is a mixed or there's a, there's a part missing, either the employee doesn't know how to advocate for themselves, toot their own horn and position themselves to start developing that executive presence. But I've also seen from companies where they've created systems that doesn't allow them to continue to be able to thrive and and they're always like, a good example is they're always hiring externally, but never looking internally. And then when that employee leaves, not all of a sudden, magically, that title they've been asking for four years out of medically is available, that salary increase they've been asking for, all of a sudden, it's like the like, there's just an open box that just opened up, and all of a sudden, there's that money. Whereas had they offer that to the employee beforehand, that employee would have stayed there, they would never even considered looking at other companies. And now you're having someone that's been at the company, you know, 510 years of experience walking out the door. And now they need to hire three people to cover that one person's responsibility. So like, those are just some like quick examples that I've seen both from the candidate side where they're like, I keep getting passed up for promotion, I know, I just found out being grossly underpaid. And I make 50k $50,000 less than my direct reports, and all these horrible scenarios that I've heard about. But when they get the job, all of a sudden, the money's there, the title is there, the upper mobility is there, the resources are there. So that's more of a systemic company issue that needs to be resolved. So when you have the two, that's like a perfect marriage.

Leighann Lovely 21:55

So you mentioned something about, you know, companies are able the companies are, are able to make higher revenues. And I'm probably saying this, I'm not saying it the way that you put it such, you know, eloquently, but, you know, so companies are actually, you know, higher producing, they're, they're actually running better when you have a diverse leadership team. Correct? Correct. So why is that? I mean, what, what is the, what makes up that secret sauce, when all of the sudden you have it, you know, and in the back of my head, I'm thinking Well, to me, it kind of makes sense, right? I mean, I can think of 1,000,010 different reasons. You've got ideas, that one, you know, but there's got to be statistics behind that right as to. And it's always in put the right people in the put, put the person in the right spot on the bus and they will thrive. Yeah, but it's like, why why have we not thought about this? Why is this just happening now? For God's sakes? Right?

Claudia Miller 23:07

Yeah, I do believe there's, there's there multiple variables, but sometimes it's the unconscious bias. And these are things that we always know, you know, or it's like, nobody tries to rock the boat. So for example, when looking to fill a job position, we think that the person needs to fill in every single thing, in that job description, they need to be already experienced in that role. So if I'm applying for we're trying to fill a director role, we're looking for other persons that's already done the director position. And then discounting that manager that's been working in that department, or at that company for five, seven years, who already knows the ins and outs, instead of promoting them, we say, well, you don't have that director experience, we're just gonna hire elsewhere. Whereas we could have already given instead of that person for success and move them up, but because sometimes we think black and white, we're looking for a director, therefore, we must hire a director position. And I know in HR, you're probably hear from hiring managers, like you are asking for the impossible, and then the pay doesn't even match up. Where do you want me to find this person? Right? So there are just so many things that it's very black and white that we think director position, where I'm coming from that, you know, candidate side saying, don't apply to jobs that you qualify 100% Because I already know you're going to feel bored and challenge once you get to know the company, and then you're gonna find yourself looking for another job, because you're looking to be fulfilled, you're looking to grow and learn. You're looking to acquire new skill sets, and you don't want to stay stagnant in your career. So just going into a job posting just thinking about it. There's just like I said, so many things, that unconscious bias of, well, this person has to have this previous experience in order to do this job. It's one thing to another conscious bias is, you know, maybe and then thinking of A kinda like a woman, or she had a two year break, because of maternity leave or taking care of a loved one. So who cares, she's still able to do the job doesn't matter if she took a two year break or four year break, can she do the job successfully? And is there opportunity for her to grow up in that role, because then that becomes a loyal employee. There, they're able to learn. And you also sometimes, we don't always want someone that's already done it because you want them to be innovative, that creates for more innovative solutions allows them to stay within that role in itself. And because of that innovation, that's where the revenue comes from, maybe they're doing this in a very productive way. Maybe they're able to do this in a short amount of time, because they're realizing how it impacts them. Based on the role, like, Hey, I used to do this job, and I know this pain points. Now, as a manager, director, let me kind of read, get rid of those challenges to make my team work more faster and efficiently. Because I know that used to be a big obstacle for me,

Leighann Lovely 26:02

You know, and it's, you said, loyal employee. So I know a company that hired a woman, she was pregnant, they were fully aware, she was pregnant, they hired her fully knowing that in six months from then she was going to go on maternity leave. I will tell you that that that individual was one like, oh, wow, you're going to offer me the job. And I'm, you know, first of all, that should be the way that it is, you know, being pregnant is not. It's not an illness. It's not a it should be a triumph, you know, period of your life. But of course, I hated being pregnant. I love the end result. But anyways, it should be a great time in a woman's life of Oh, my gosh, I'm growing a life in me. But many employers will, if they find out, despite the fact that obviously it's illegal to discriminate for that purpose. Just little caveat in there, if anybody's listening and digging, you know, you hire somebody who's pregnant, that employee will become an extremely loyal employee. Again, what you were saying, okay, yes, she took a break, she took a year break a two year break a four year break, raising her children that does not make that person, all of the sudden, uneducated and incapable of doing the job they did before they took a break to raise their children. And there's so many people out there that are so scared to do that, because they're like, Oh, I could end in my career, if I do this. It's like, really like this is things that drive women's decisions. But what I like about the society that we are now entering into is that we put an emphasis, a huge emphasis now on work life balance, and parental leave. And more and more companies are now saying not maternity leave, they're saying parental leave, because men are now saying, wait a second. Why is only the woman allowed to get an opportunity to enjoy the first couple of months of this beautiful new life? Can't I get a chance to bond with my child? I mean, it just seems like it was it's been so backwards for so long. And now we're finally going Yeah, men are just as important in the in a new child's life. And I'm sorry, I'm bringing up you know, this whole pregnancy thing, but and women have historically kind of been punished for Oh, god, you're gonna take three months off to bond with your child? Oh, god, that's such a horrible thing. How dare you do that? You know, and men are going wait a second, I want to do that, too. It's like, yeah, yeah, go, you can do that. Yeah, that's a good idea. Maybe society will stop punishing the woman for doing it, if the man does it. And it'll start to balance out. And something else that you said, promoting from within. Part of the reason that we have less women in leadership is because and this is, again, a systemic problem throughout our society, is because companies do mediately go externally. And because there are more men who have historically been in leadership, more men apply to the position with the said, skill level, right? Or said, director level experience. And so they continue to put those men back in those instead of promoting the possible woman who has the experience from within, thus not getting that additional training. Which is why women continue to leave the job that they're at To get more advancement, creating thus the problem that we have,

Claudia Miller 30:09

Yeah, I had, I had a client where her company got acquired. And usually when an acquisition comes whoever the acquisition body or companies, they'll put in their new leadership, so they'll put in a new CEO, the CEO brings their own CFO, their CMO, and everyone else. And all of a sudden, she used to have direct access to the CFO. Well, now she's four levels, below the CFO, yet she's training every single one of them, that department that she created the processes, she embedded into it. And now they're looking to get a reacquired, or they sold it off to someone else. So they're not. So she's been through like three different bosses in the past four years. While she's the one that created the department, she went on maternity leave her responsibilities, she was demoted. And now, of course, she's looking for a job, right? And she got a job offer. And they're asking her, you know, what can we do to keep you that, like, at this point, it is too late, right? Um, so there's just so many things that kind of you have to take into account. But, I mean, there's multiple reasons. But like you mentioned, even like, I have my own business, but even for my husband, I want him, you know, one of the things that dictates where he goes to is, well, we're looking to, you know, build or grow our family. So what are the, you know, offerings and benefits that come from it, because I too, need that partner. And then right now, he works for a really big company. So he's like, I am loyal to this company. If I can retire here, I would stay here. And those are like the really great companies because of the benefits that they offer the for the entire family. And now you get more of a loyal, devoted person. They're looking, I mean, he works extra, because he loves and enjoys his company. He's always promoting it, he's always speaking very highly of the company. Like these are things that come from it. That's free promotion, that's hard to buy. And all these things stacked up against each other is what creates a very successful company. That's where innovation comes in.

Leighann Lovely 32:16

I was yeah, that you're exactly right. I was talking to somebody and I can't remember which episode, but there is a really easy way to destroy your company. Treat your employees like crap. And they will go out. And not only are they going in, I'm not saying they're going out purposely bad mouthing the company, but they're going to have conversations with their friends. They're going to be in social settings, and they're going to be Oh, yeah, my job sucks, or where do you work? And they're gonna say, Oh, I work at XYZ company. And it's just all the culture is horrible. That one really bad conversation that somebody overhears, that can spread like wildfire, like I mean, it. Absolutely. And you can completely stop. I mean, and there's one company in particular, that I, like it's known in everybody who works in that particular type of industry, every, none of them will go work there, because they know that the working conditions are so bad. And I had brought it up, somebody, you know, in my network had said, Oh, if you know, anybody who's looking for this type of work, and I brought it up, because I knew somebody in that type of work, and he goes, Oh, God, no, nobody I know will ever go work there. And I was like, Oh my god. So on the flip side of that, if you want to spend very little on promotion and marketing, become known as the place that treats your employees, awesome. That really goes out of your way to offer good benefits, a good vacation package that makes your employees happy. I know a company that has a gourmet chef that makes food, you know, on on the lunch hour, makes fresh food every day for their entire staff, and that the employees don't pay for it. It's all included. So every day that employees come out on their lunch hour, the the gourmet chef is there making fresh food for them for their lunch hour, they have an hour lunch, they go back, and then they finish out their day and go home. And everybody raves about, wow. I mean, the work is hard. But wow, I love working here. I'm not gonna go anywhere else. I'm not going to get a gourmet meal for lunch every day.

Claudia Miller 34:32

And I'm sure that's every recruiter dream because it makes it so easy to want to fill those positions with top talent, right? Whereas at the other company, you would not want to be that recruiter. You're like you're literally scraping by like Where can I find someone? Because I personally I share with my clients I actually have a company or blacklist of companies have not to work for so when a client would say, Hey, I think I should work here. I was like You know what I do not recommend. And here's why. And I have different cases from past clients who running away from these companies because of these specific reasons. This company is just not set up for you to succeed, right?

Leighann Lovely 35:12

I mean, and obviously being, you know, in the recruiting world, I hear all the horror stories, I play, somebody plays a professional person somewhere, and then they call me six months later and go, Oh, my God, I need to tell you this. And I'm assuming that you didn't know. But you're probably not, I need a new job. And you're probably not going to want to place anybody else here. And it's and then, you know, as somebody who's putting their reputation on the line as being a premier recruiting firm, you go, Oh, yep, I don't care if I burn the bridge with the client. Because if that's really what's happening at this company, I'm not going to place anybody else there. Because I'm just going to end up placing somebody and having them come back to me six months later, and tell me that it's the most volatile place they've ever worked. And that's not you. That is not the reputation. That one I want to have, nor that my company that I represent wants to have, right. Yes, exactly. So yeah, I mean, companies need to one if they don't know what's happening. They're there. I mean, come on. You have a constant, you know, and I, it drives me crazy when people come to me and say, I have a hiring problem. And then I say, Well, how many people have you hired? And they say, Oh, 10. And I say, how many have left? Oh, eight. So you don't have a hiring problem. You have a retention problem? AKA you have a culture problem.

Claudia Miller 36:43

Yep. And what is happening now, that's a different strategy that requires different resources. Because to your point, I mean, you continue to hire and hiring, hiring. But if you're not fixing that back end, then what's the point and it costs, I mean, I forgot what the stat is. But it's like it could cost up to 40% of an employee's base salary, just to fill them plus the time you they need to get on board, which can be three to six months at a time, where as you had taken care of that employee, you save so much money. Plus, you're able to have the recruiter spend more time in other new jobs as opposed to refilling that position that just felt a few months ago.

Leighann Lovely 37:23

Right, and years ago, I think, I mean, this was years ago, the cost of training, the cost of onboarding, that it was anywhere from depending on the level of the position 10 to 30,000, you know, in just hiring a new employee to get them on boarded to get their benefits going to get their, you know, the work comp all of that up and running for each employee that they brought on. And then the training period, there was like a range depending on the date. That was a statistic years ago, I haven't really kept up on that. But it was like, so you're gonna waste like 10 to $30,000 per employee to get them up and running for them to walk out the door six months later, well, why are you doing that you're you're wasting, you might as well go and start a fire in the back of your business and just throw money on it, it would do better for you than what you're doing right now. Yep. It doesn't make any sense. Like, but if you want me to continue to just hire people for you and charge you a fee, and then take them back and place them somewhere better. Okay, I suppose. Let me just let them know that in six months, I'm going to be re, you know, placing him somewhere else. But I mean, no, sorry. That's bad joke. Okay, we've gone off on a tangent. So I want to talk to you a little bit about you, you're you have a podcast? Yes, I do. Tell me a little bit about that.

Claudia Miller 38:43

It's called roadmap to the executive suite. So I created a podcast with the intention of demystifying what it means to be a woman in an executive role and how to get there. So I felt that a lot of times when I was speaking to clients, they would say, Well, I don't know if I want to be the executive suite, I want to be able to spend time with family. I don't want to be always working. And I kind of want to test it out. I know I have some clients that are executives and like, I don't hear that. They're probably you're just as stressed as they are. But sometimes it might be the job or it's just the wrong company that you're at. And so I created the pockets. I bring in executives, I bring in recruiters, executive recruiters and really ask them to be transparent and candid, like tell me a little bit more how would you recommend and also helping them move through their career to help them get there if they even want to make it to the executive suite? Because it's not everyone's golden dream and I told her respect that but maybe you want to make it all the way to the senior director level or a director position. Well, then the podcast is meant to help you get there and really have a really true good understanding and that way you have the all the information you need to decide how far do you want to take your career.

Leighann Lovely 39:55

Awesome. And it's that's that's great. I love it. because you're right, people think that the higher level, the higher up they get, the more pressure, the more responsible it is, the more responsibilities that you have. But that does not mean that you're sacrificing. It doesn't mean that you have to sacrifice your work life balance, it just simply means that you need to work for a company that understands what your expectations are of the job. And if they don't match yours. Well, then you just you're, that's not the right role for you.

Claudia Miller 40:31

Exactly, yeah, I have clients that are the executive suite, and they tell their boss and whoever their employees, between the hours of two to four, I'm with my family, I'm picking up my kids, and I'm spending time with them. And I'll be back on it's between six to eight. And you know, that's how they make up their time. And everyone's okay with it, the company is profitable, they're still doing really well, and that my client is even more loyal now. Because their company supports them. And they're able to do this and have that flexibility.

Leighann Lovely 41:02

Yeah. Well, that's awesome. That's, that's absolutely amazing. You've also been featured on in multiple times in Forbes, MSN VC, which was in this was, you know, I do it when I did your bio. But I mean, that's, that's pretty awesome. I'm wildly impressed. So tell me, you know, when you start working with a company, what is the very first thing that you start off with?

Claudia Miller 41:36

Making sure what the goal objective is? What is the goal objective? Because that or the scope of work? Because that would dictate everything kind of to your point? Oh, we have a hiring problem. What is your goal? I'm looking to, you know, move more women into senior leadership roles. Okay, we that's the goal. Everything else moving forward is going to dictate that. Tell me what is your leadership and talent pipeline look like? Why don't have one. Okay. How many of your employees right now are in the management level that are women? We don't know what we need to collect that data. You know, who are how many positions out there? Do you have open fill positions? And how many of those have you looked into? Can the person right now in that role fill that role? We haven't done that we just post the job and put it externally and internally. All right. So it's just that goal dictates the entire strategy? And if sometimes they don't have the metrics, well, then let's get those metrics. That way we can fully evaluate. And again, the goal is to move more women into senior leadership roles. Let's start internal. Who do we have? And if they don't have the executive presence, but maybe they have the expertise, well, we could help them build that executive presence, we can help them brand rebrand themselves as leaders, because sometimes it's just a little bit of rebranding need it like, for example, I had an insurance company hire me because their IT department, they have a lot of people that the average tenure, or the least the youngest tenure will be 10 years, on average, most of the employees have been there for 1520 years. So they like to retain their employees. But they kept seeing a gap when it came to director positions. And ideally they like to hire from within. Now, they're like, We know that some of them can kind of sort of do it. But we don't know if because they don't know how to sell themselves, or because they truly don't know how to do it, can you coach them, and then we can help decipher that. All they needed to do was help them sell themselves and rebrand themselves. And this is for the IT department. So they're not salespeople. So of course, they don't know how to sell themselves, so worked with them, and helping them rebrand themselves as that leader, director position, show them how to truly sell themselves and how to communicate as a director. Now all of a sudden, they were able to fill in a lot of those director positions were very highly qualified people who now know how to sell themselves and portray themselves as leaders. And it was a win win scenario for both the company and for their employees. And now they started developing and growing that into kind of like their talent pipeline. So now they can go in through this training program. And now they have a good source of talent where they can say, hey, we have these positions available. We have these people or our employees that are already prepped and ready to go. They just need to be placed. And now they're even increasing their retention. And most of their employees now are even more willing to be loyal to them because they know there's upward mobility for them.

Leighann Lovely 44:32

Right? That's awesome. And it's obviously, again, I go back to I'm in the recruiting world in the hiring world, and there are definitely certain types of individuals that, you know, I'm a salesperson, I can go into an interview and I could probably sell you on the fact that I would be great in any role, even though I have no experience if I really wanted to That's what I do for a living. So, but then there are people who have an extremely brilliant background, but they can't seem to get a sentence out during an interview because now you've got nerves. They're, they're introverts. And you're putting him on the spot, and I'll have clients call me and be like, oh, oh, this interview didn't go well. I mean, it was it was horrible. And I'm like, Okay, wait, wait, let's back up. I'm like, Why didn't it go? Oh, well, he just, he or she could they just couldn't, you know, articulate anything. And I'm like, okay. But do you need them to articulate to that? Well, no. Okay. So hard skills. Do they have? Yeah, oh, yeah. He's got all the does this person have to speak to client? No. Okay. So personality wise, total introvert, but that's the job. Well, yeah. Okay. So what's the problem? Yeah, like, but and that's, it's true. I mean, there are some people that just that in there are some jobs and I remember my first two are through an accounting firm, all CPAs all tax all. And I'm an extrovert, I walk up to people and I shake hands, and, and it was the most uncomfortable. Again, I'm not trying to pick on him. I am kind of my best friends and accountant. But it was it was one of the most uncomfortable because here I am, like, ready to be like, Hey, hi. Oh, and everybody's just like, Yeah, hi. And then just goes back to what they're doing. And I'm like, Oh, my God, that's personality. Right? You know, we're not all we're not all designed to, and, we can't be.

Claudia Miller 46:59

And I think you brought up a great point, because that's something that I always try to take into account. Because, one, I do feel like it's the employees responsibility to say, Hey, I know I'm an introvert, I don't know how to do this. But I do want to move up the career ladder, I need to start getting better those soft skills, whether it's presenting myself as a leader, or as that director, I need to probably rebrand myself, they need to come across and I need to do to almost speak at a different frequency. Because when you interview as a manager is very different how you interview as individual contributor, director and the C suite. So there's different frequencies and how you present yourself. But it's also the company's responsibility. And I think you mentioned this at the beginning, where it was not all managers have management training, we want to be able to say, hey, I want you to be able to sell yourself because I want you to communicate with us all the great work that you've done, not only so that we can promote you and take care of you, but sometimes that can be used for sales, marketing, that can be other assets that can be used to let's help each other help each other. So I do think that that's a responsibility of both parties. And ideally, like, you start to building that strong, robust, high performing talent, and then they don't have to be the best sellers. Because they're, you're not hiring them to become like the number one salesperson, you know, if they're like in other departments that doesn't require that but at least to be able to feel comfortable enough to sell themselves within the organization and showing them that skill set that allows your company to be even more successful.

Leighann Lovely 48:36

Yeah, and so across the board, and I'm not talking about C suite I'm not talking about but across the board, I think the number is 8% 8% of people who are promoted within to mid level management position, have management training, the rest are promoted and are not given management training. Right? That is, that was the number I'm not sure maybe that has gone up over the last year or two because of everything that has transpired. But at the time that I had last looked that up, it was only 8% of the people who are moved into management and I'm not talking again, this is not taking into account C suite or and that number is I mean, it's it's painful to even think that you leave them you're basically setting them up to fail. If you're getting no management training. You're basically yeah, I mean, no wonder you have so many individuals just kind of lay out Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna tell you what to do, but I don't know if I'm saying it in the right way or so. Yeah, okay. There is a definitely a great need for mentors and coaches and training to go into these organizations. And part of it is that there there is a lack of time for a lot of organizations, especially now we have a huge gap in in in employees to go into the open jobs that we have. Companies are struggling at every I mean, you go into a restaurant and even restaurants don't have the employees, the half the half the restaurants empty, and you're sitting there waiting for 15 minutes to get your table because they don't have the staff. So this is happening at every business across the United States, well, really probably in the world because of what has transpired. So it's a, it's an interesting world. But I love that you are working with women. And I love that you are working with women of color, because those are definitely two areas that are are in need of coaching and in need of, I shouldn't say in need of coaching, I should say. They need to be recognized. And people need to stop overlooking the fact that women are just as experienced and are just as capable of doing the jobs that anybody else is doing, or anybody else is capable of doing.

Claudia Miller 51:12

And they're bringing higher ROI.

Leighann Lovely 51:17

And that, so we are we are coming to time. So I want to ask you the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself.

Claudia Miller 51:32

I would probably go give myself advice. Maybe around 11 or 12 or so. And here's the kind of like a philosophy or model that I live by now. But I hadn't heard of that, you know, when I was 11, or 12. But it's like, do what others won't to achieve what others can't. So sometimes like, just because it's hard right now, doesn't mean it's not worth it. And sometimes if you want to achieve excellence, you have to put in the work. And sometimes it will require giving up some things but then you will get to achieve something that others just are not even willing to be able to get to. Because they're not putting willing to put in the work.

Leighann Lovely 52:15

And why that particular age.

Claudia Miller 52:19

I think that that's when I started kind of like, I think like that's the age that I started coming to like who am I? And what should I do now, I've always been a straight A student. And I'm an extrovert. So I would say I've always been like really good with grades. But that's when I started at the time, I thought well, I want to become like an architect or something. But I think that's like a prime age where I like I almost started being conscious of like my surroundings and what I wanted to be and who I was where I was trying to find myself. Now more of thinking of we don't find ourselves, we recreate ourselves. So who do I want to be? Let's create that person and what I need to do to create it. But I say that that would be the age and that would be my advice.

Leighann Lovely 53:05

That's awesome. And wow, you were you were an early I don't know the rights. You started at a at an early age trying to discover yourself because honestly, I didn't discover myself until I was probably in my mid 20s. But to be that driven and start to become that conscious of of things, at that young of an age is amazing. And you are completely correct. If there are any young, younger adults listening to this. What you said is that we don't you said not become ourselves but create. Yes, yes, that is that is absolutely. Spot on. Brilliant. I truly believe that the world doesn't come to me. I go to it. And I need it head on at every corner at every stop. And yeah, that's that's absolutely beautiful. So well. Yeah. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Claudia Miller 54:14

They can go to my website, Claudia t miller.com. Or follow me on LinkedIn, and Instagram, Claudia T. Miller, I post a lot of free career advice in there, as well as you know, some strategies on how to improve overall like what systems are set up for within companies that allow women to thrive and move into senior leadership roles but they can learn and hear more about me through those three avenues.

Leighann Lovely 54:40

Excellent. And that'll be also on the show notes. So if you didn't catch it here, you're welcome to jump into the show notes and it will be listed there. So Claudia, thank you so much for the conversation today. I truly enjoyed talking with you. You're a brilliant woman, and I know that you are out there inspiring other brilliant women. You No, so thank you.

Claudia Miller 55:01

Thanks for having me, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 55:05

Contact Claudia

LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/claudiatmiller/

E-mail – claudia@claudiatmiller.com

Website – claudiatmiller.com

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William Toti is an amazing man that has dedicated his life to service, first the military, and now to helping others find a better way to transition out of the military into the civilian world. William made a profound statement, Stop Saying “Thank You for Your Service”, if it causes you to treat your veteran employees differently. Let’s be clear this does not mean to stop saying it, but rather take time to understand your employees instead of using a blanket statement. William is a hero, and one that continues to be one in many people’s eyes.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Captain William Toti, retired US Navy has more than 26 years of service in the US Navy and 15 years in industry cumulating in a role as CEO of a defense company. Today, he continues his journey as a sought after consultant and authority on topics of military transition into industry, the monstrous September 11, 2001 terrorist attack on the Pentagon, and the unforgettable stories of World War Two cruiser USS Indianapolis and her heroic crew. William, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have this conversation.

William Toti 01:49

I'm excited to be here Leighann. Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 01:52

So why don't you just start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

William Toti 01:56

Wow! Well, I joined the Navy at age 17. Wanting to become an astronaut that didn't quite work out. I ended up at the Naval Academy, after less than a year of being enlisted and graduated in 1979 went into submarines actually did make kind of a false move the astronaut thing I got nominated in 1987 and failed the physical. So I had to return to submarine duty, which was fine. I had a great career in submarines ended up commanding a submarine, USS Indianapolis was commodore of submarine squadron three in Pearl Harbor, and had a great Navy career made the transition industry in 2006. And boy, was it eye opening.

Leighann Lovely 02:39

Wow. So you went from wanting to be in space to bring in water

William Toti 02:47

Underwater years of my life underwater, it was very different. Wow, it's actually much more like space than you can imagine. I used to tease my astronaut friends, the ones didn't get kicked out that, you know, we we the differential pressure on a submarine is one atmosphere every 33 feet. So if you're four feet down, that's many many atmospheres. Space, only one atmosphere, you can't get more differential pressure than that because going to a vacuum to one atmosphere. So the submarine is actually in a much harsher environment than a spacecraft.

Leighann Lovely 03:23

Wow, that's a fact that I did not know. Yeah, that's very, very interesting. That's, that's absolutely amazing. So I I've always had this like, idealistic, you know, image of what it would be like to be underwater. However, I also have this like utter fear of being in an enclosed space. So you've got to walk me through like, what was it like your first time going? You know, under,

William Toti 03:52

I do remember going to sleep for the very first time and the bunks on submarines are very small, you got maybe two feet between your face and the hull above your top bunk. Bunk. And so two feet above you is the hull. And I remember on the other side of that bit of steel, there are hundreds of feet of water and all that pressure that's above you that, you know just I remember laying there thinking about that. But I was so tired. I just went straight to sleep. People who volunteer for submarine duties tend not to have issues with this stuff. So and it's all volunteer you can't be forced, right? So it wasn't a real issue for me. I do remember that one thought put it to bed and you know decade of submarine duty and never had an issue with it

Leighann Lovely 04:44

right. Oh my god that I don't know that I could even get myself to walk in a submarine when it was above water i that.

William Toti 04:53

We did have. I did have one experience when I was captain where we had a Senate staffer. come on board for Right. And as soon as we shut the hatches, she freaked out to the point where Mike Corman had had kind of drugged her and had to calm her down to get her to because she wanted to climb out the hatch. And we couldn't let her do that. So we had to turn around, go back in is out of Pearl Harbor, go back in and drop her off. It was the only time in like I said over a decade of submarine duty where that ever happened.

Leighann Lovely 05:25

Right? Oh, my gosh. Right. I I, as much as I'm sure that somebody can set themselves up for like, this is what's going to happen. You don't know how you're actually going to react when? When you physically are in that situation? Yep. Interesting. So okay, so you did you were in your in for 26 years? Is that correct? That's right. Awesome. And now I'm

William Toti 05:47

fast.

Leighann Lovely 05:48

It did. 20

William Toti 05:51

Went fast. I never intended to stay in the Navy, that long. Classes 79. Our commitment after we graduated from Annapolis was over an 84, 1984. And our kind of our motto was out the door and 84 we thought we would all be leaving the Navy as soon as our commitment was up. But I was given another really good assignment to go to graduate school. And it for free, right? And then another good assignment, and then another one and another one. And suddenly, oh, I'm Captain. Now I can't leave. Right. That's, that's really cool. And it just turned out where suddenly I was in my mid 40s. And I said, Holy cow, out of that go that fast? If I don't transition industry now, I won't have enough time in my life left for real second career. Right, which is why I decided, okay, this has been good. But I do want to have a full second career in industry. I gotta move now. And that's what caused me to jump when I did.

Leighann Lovely 06:54

So tell me about that. I mean, you spent basically, you know, two decades? Plus, plus, yeah, as a military man, in conditions that the majority of I would say, not the majority, almost nobody in civilian life could possibly understand because this is not the you know, the, the path you chose is not for the faint of heart. As I think we just kind of dove into a little bit. They're not extremely deep, but it's not for the faint of heart. I mean, you're living in, in a steel tube underwater,

William Toti 07:33

with a nuclear reactor in that steel tube. Right, exactly. Right.

Leighann Lovely 07:38

You can't, you can't not be 100% aware of everything you're doing at every moment of your career. So now you're transitioning into civilian into the civilian world?

William Toti 07:54

Well, it was it was an enormous transition way more difficult than I thought it would be. The military gives you transition training, they're required by law, actually, to give you trans transition training, as you get out, and you assume I'll speak personally, I assumed that the transition training was valid and good. And it turns out, it was just short of horrible, it misleads you in a whole bunch of different ways. And this is why I spend so much time talking to companies and HR professionals these days. Because my point is, there are great attributes that that veteran employees going to bring the company. But there's a whole bunch of things, that the veteran employee may think they know that they really don't, that might set them up for failure, if the company isn't sensitive to it, and the strategy of throwing them into the deep end and hoping they can figure out how to swim is not going to work. And so what I try to do is help a company training teams, company, HR professionals, understand what the glue the military veteran will and will not bring to their civilian job, and help them understand how to close the gaps. And this is one of the reasons I ended up writing my book, from CO to CEO because in my 16 year journey in industry, I started out as a director ended up as CEO. I saw 1000s of military employees and I saw way too many of them fail. And the failures, I was one of the first to see, oh my I almost failed in my transition. And so the lessons were repeatable. I mean, this failures were occurring, for the same reasons over and over and over again. And so what I tried to do is write all those things down, starting with what I call the Great Lie. And the great lies is told to veterans as a leading military, which is in the transition trainers will tell them, you know, you've already been a leader in the military, and all your civilian company wants from you, is good leadership. And if you can provide that level of leadership in your future job, you'll do just fine. And that's actually very bad advice. Because what it does is it sets the veteran up with an inappropriate degree of confidence, number one, that the kind of leadership they might have exerted on active duty, translates to industry, and it often doesn't. And number two, the reason I call it the great lie, is, it's certainly not all your future employer is going to want from you good leadership. You know, and it's not even true in the military. If it was true in the military, I could take a b 52, Wing Commander and put them in command a submarine. And as long as he's a good leader, it would have worked. But we know that's not the case. Right? And, and in industry, you actually need to know something about what you're doing to succeed, and good leadership is not gonna help you,

Leighann Lovely 11:09

right? Well, I guess here's the question, who is training the veterans who are transitioning into civilian into the civilian world,

William Toti 11:19

sadly, people who don't know what they're talking about, they're going to people don't get me wrong, are the contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder. And just like anytime that happens, you bid teachers that you can, that will allow you to pay them a low wage, to win the contract. And those teachers are not going to have the kind of experience necessary to actually know what they're talking about.

Leighann Lovely 11:47

I mean, you would think that the people who are training those people should be people like you.

William Toti 11:53

But they couldn't afford people like me to contract. And so it's systemic, these failures. And that's the point I make. All of these failures are systemic, the military is required by law to give the training, but the law doesn't require it to be good training, right. So they check the block, and then they, and then the veteran, ends up joining the company. And they might exhibit bad leadership behaviors, in which case, HR is gonna say, what do we do about this now? And what I also find is, non veteran managers are afraid to have those difficult conversations with their veteran employees, because they think, Who am I to tell this guy who commanded a company and in the army, that he's not exhibiting good leadership behaviors? Right, right. He's, he's not going to take that well. So rather than have that conversation with him, they let them fail. Right? So it's easier,

Leighann Lovely 12:54

Right? I mean, if there's no denying that, that there are many veterans who have been left out in the cold, limited support, I have seen it in my career, somebody who is in staffing, we have veterans who come to us, I'm struggling to find a job, I'm struggling to find a position in the civilian world that translates to what I was doing in the military. I have a ton of experience, but I don't know what that role looks like in the civilian world.

William Toti 13:24

Because in many, MOS is in many military, you know, training qualification professional qualifications do not translate well, right to civilian industry. In 2011, I was assigned to a White House working group on certifying military, people for civilian industry. And it was President Obama's initiative, and is very proud to be part of this working group. But it was easy for some fields like it, and medicine for corpsman medics to get an EMT and paramedic certification, some of them translated very, very well. But then there were other disciplines in the military, there was absolutely no civilian analog for what are you going to do with infantryman? Right? What's professional certification is that person going to make so they're absolutely coping skills, you know, as we say, in the military, but people who've gone through our deployments, understand how to embrace the suck. So nothing the company is going to throw at them is going to, you know, faze them, right, you're gonna be able to put up with the hardship, there'll be fine. So there's great coping skills which are useful, but those skills by themselves aren't enough.

Leighann Lovely 14:49

Right? Right. No, and to your point somebody who's an infantry it's it's extremely sad that they were very well respected in the military and then you find them years later working for minimum wage at a factory and you're like, is this what we're, we're telling our veterans that is is available to them when they transition into civilian life?

William Toti 15:12

Yeah. And one of the things I started saying to companies to employers is stop saying thank you for your service. And that surprises a lot of people coming from a veteran, because frankly, I like to hear people say that. So why am I saying that? It's an empty, vacuous remark, with nothing behind it, it makes the person saying it feel good. And it makes the person hearing it maybe feel good, too. But it doesn't do a thing. And I'm saying this only to employers. I'm not saying this to the general public, the general public, please do say thank you for service. But employers, it doesn't do a thing to help that military person become a better employee. In fact, if anything, it draws a broader line between the veteran employees and the non veteran employees. So rather than, say, this empty statement, do something meaningful, meaningful, it's going to help them transition into a better employee.

Leighann Lovely 16:13

That's really well said, because you're right in here, this made me think of a story. And this was not one of my employees. This is actually I was having a conversation. Obviously, I have a lot of conversations about HR. Sure. But somebody said to me, they were telling me a story about an employee that was working a veteran employee that was working at a company and they didn't know how to coach her. She was she was doing okay, on the job. But the manager came up to her and said, you know, some of the employees, she was managing a couple of people, some of the employees are struggling to work with you. We'd like you to smile more. And she, she was like, Okay, well, you know, I'm just doing my job, you know, you know, I'm just trying to that was their response to how we're going to coach her. Why don't you smile more?

William Toti 17:10

RIght

Leighann Lovely 17:10

and again, eventually, they ended up letting her go, because that was the feedback they gave, we want you to smile, more people will respond to you better.

William Toti 17:23

This is exactly the problem. The company rather than treating, treating the veteran, just like any other employee, treats them differently, right? Would you say that to a non veteran employee, and then once so there's a differentiation in the kind of feedback the manager and HR gives to the veteran employee. And then there's a much higher probability that rather than giving them meaningful coaching, and feedback, like they would do with any other employee, and the performance reviews, they basically say, just gonna let them fail. And people wonder why the veteran suicide rate is so high and, and why there's so much stress and transition anxiety for veterans. These are exactly the reasons these things happen.

Leighann Lovely 18:16

Right? I don't know, if there's, if there is a assumed, like your, your, your military person, you, you should know how to do this. Or if it's a fear in the HR, what you were saying of? Well, I don't want to insult them, because they are because they are a veteran, but we're talking about two completely different two different disciplines. Military, which is an extremely structured, extremely, you understand you were not only trained in your MOS you were, you were trained in the disciplines of the military through basic training. And then you continue to get training and continue to get very clear, concise expectations of your job on a regular basis. If you just wanna, I mean, it's so when I'm assuming when this veteran and again, I say I'm assuming, because I don't know, some of my listeners know that I you know, served but I did not serve very long and that was over 20 plus years ago. So, I never experienced any of this I was, you know, so I am

William Toti 19:33

I mentioned that I almost failed in my first job. Happily, my, my boss, my boss's boss, actually, who was my mentor. Had that really difficult conversation with me. In fact, remember the words the exact words he used was, Bill, you're screwing this up. That was the best thing he could have ever said to me. And in the counseling that followed. One of the things he said was So I put this in my book, right? You need to learn how to live with ambiguity. And that was a concept that never occurred to me. I was a, I was a captain of a submarine. It was it was either, you know, it was black, or it was white, there were no Shades of Grey, we're gonna it's right or it's wrong. There's the chain of command, you follow the chain of command, I was Commodore, the same thing. Learn to live with ambiguity was a concept that was foreign to me. But that one simple expression, taught me so much. And reset my kind of frame of reference, in ways allowed me to turn it around and succeed where I'd been failing.

Leighann Lovely 20:44

I have, right that. And that's, that's an extremely powerful point. There is no ambiguity in the military.

William Toti 20:55

Well, there is, but we we try to pretend there is. I try to turn ambiguity into certainty. Yes. So we're gonna make a decision, what is you know, and it's kind of like that. The notion of in fact, I talk about, you know, situational leadership and the book, you know, in some, and I do, imply, in the book, I don't name which services are better than others, but some transitioning, some people transitioning from what some services, some military services, understand that, you know, situational leadership concept better than other military services, and let people let your listeners decide which services are more regimented, and which are more kind of flexible and adaptable. But there's truth to that. And when I was in the process of hiring people, I consider that, you know, and I would say to people who I knew, were coming from a background, whether it'd be excessively regimented, I would have that conversation with them. And I would say, you understand now that this is a different environment. And what you what worked for you a great book, I refer to every everybody to What Got You Here Won't Get You There is the title of the book. And I refer that book to everybody from the military that are higher. And I would say, your success will depend on your degree of adaptability, right? This is before I wrote my own book in order for them to my point, but anyway, but that is just absolutely. HR people, hiring managers, and managers need to understand that, that is, the biggest thing they can help their veterans do is understand the concept of situational leadership. You know, the need to kind of get immersed in the success profile of a company, which is going to be very different. And the need to help the veteran understand the mission, because veterans are always going to be very mission oriented. And when you're on active duty, it's easy to understand the mission defending the country, when you join a company, cynical veterans start thinking, Well, my mission now is to put money in my boss's pocket. That's not the mission, right? That is not the mission. But it may not be obvious to the veteran, but that's not the mission. And so company's goal can go a long way, by helping the veteran understand what the real mission is.

Leighann Lovely 23:35

And how many companies do you think actively try to understand and really help these veterans I mean, with the companies that you've spoken with it because again, I work with, and I will and I see all the time, you know, veteran friendly, or, you know, veterans wanted, but then often, and there's one company, and obviously, I'm not going to name names, but there's one company that oh, we're veteran friendly, we're veteran friendly, but they they don't make any attempt to do anything differently with those individuals.

William Toti 24:19

Companies that consider themselves veteran friendly can recite to you how many veterans they hire in a given year. So ask them, Okay, how many veterans that you hired are still with you after five years? And they fail open? They have no idea. And so they unless you can answer that question, and unless the number and percentage, it compares to the percentage of non vets that have are still with you after five years, you're not veteran friendly, and answer the question about which companies do a good job. The default wisdom would say, well, the defense companies because they are the closest to the veteran community. You're the Active Duty community. And the truth is, defense companies are more likely to pigeonhole veterans into business development like positions. And, like propagates like. So people think that that's where the veterans belong. They belong to those business development. I wasn't. I went into p&l, which was a high risk, high reward, right? Transition from active duty, but it worked out for me. It doesn't work out for a lot of people. But the defense companies tend to pigeonhole veterans in those business development positions. And then the veterans in the business development positions, think that other veterans that they hire ought to come into business development, and they end up like, not assimilating their veterans, often, as well, as a company that's not a defense company. It says, well, we got talent here. What? Where can we best use this talent? We're not selling to military. So that doesn't make sense. It put them in sales. So where can we best use them? And as long as they go in understanding the strengths and weaknesses of the veterans that their employees are employing, which is why I recommend that company managers read my book as well, then they're going to do fine.

Leighann Lovely 26:21

So tell me about your book. Okay.

William Toti 26:24

The book is titled, from CO to CEO, A Practical Guide for Transitioning from Military to Industry Leadership. Now, because it describes my journey from commanding officer CO, to Chief Executive Officer of Spartan Corporation, CEO. And it when you read the book, it's written, as me talking to veterans are thinking of transitioning out of the military. When I wrote it, though, I had in mind that this would be a book that non veteran, you know, corporate managers, HR people ought to read. And when you read it, what you're, what you're going to the experience you're going to get is one, veteran counseling and other it's like you're listening into that conversation, and you're listening to me tell those veterans, here's what you're going to be good at. Here's what you're going to screw up, if you're not careful. And so I think it gives insight into corporate leaders who haven't served as to what the strengths of those veteran employees are going to be, and what weaknesses need to be mitigated. You want to make the veteran, a successful employee,

Leighann Lovely 27:33

Right? You know, this reminds me and I'm not comparing these two by any means. So please, I don't want anybody to think, Oh, she's comparing. But this reminds me I interviewed a while back some individuals who work with people who are previously incarcerated coming into society. And there's, there's similarities in the sense that obviously, not similarities, in fact, that one person was in prison, and the other person was in the military at all. But there are similarities in the sense that when somebody is coming out of the military, back into society, or into civilian life, and somebody is coming out of prison into civilian life, there there's you can draw similarities in the sense that military and in prison, you have structure that no longer have in civilian life, there are certain things that all of the sudden, you as an individual have to remember about, just daily living, moving from it, especially if you're, you know, living on a military base full time. And, you know, you're got your wake up call, every morning, you got your three square meals at the same time, every single day, you've got everything you need, basically on that military base, and then all of a sudden, you're thrust into just having to have an alarm clock hafting to do you know, and then from obviously, from prison, again, everything is, you know, completely designed for you those similarities, all of a sudden, you can you can draw some and you would think that, as a society, we would get smarter about that. We have groups for AAA, we have groups for why aren't we? Why aren't we setting up places where individuals can go and meet and be like, Okay, here's what I'm struggling with. I'm, you know, I just recently came out of, you know, active duty, just want to come and have a conversation with all of my fellow veterans who are in this area and talk about what are you struggling with? What are you struggling and be able to talk through some of those things on a personal level because it's not just about a job. It's also can be, what are you struggling with family issues because these things, especially people who have been deployed, people who have been in war zones, people who have, I mean, it goes so much deeper and so much, you know, psychologically, the those things too, you would think that we would have, you know, a landing pad that goes far beyond just, Okay, here's your walking papers enjoy life.

William Toti 30:27

And well, it's funny, you mentioned that because I did have a veteran once say to me, there ought to be a halfway house for people transitioning out an author. He didn't say we're like prisoners, but you know, the, the concept is the same. It's the what you're trying to say, yes, our local groups, the veterans administration tries to do this, but they're overwhelmed. They're way overwhelmed their local groups, the VFW, and groups like that will have gatherings that try to help people and there are other organizations like the Military Officers Association of America, and organizations like that, that do try to have gatherings of people that are in the process of transitioning to help them talk through issues. Employers can help to though, because, you know, when I was growing up in the mid 2000s, in my first industry job, we had these things called employee resource groups, or ERGs. And we had them for Black Engineers, and America, you know, we had one for American Indian, you know, employees, and things like that. Did not have one for veterans. Interesting, right. Right. We were not seen as one of those d&i groups. But in fact, we should be veterans should be thought of as a diversity inclusion group, because there is a transition, they have similar transition challenges. It can be aided by, you know, a kind of a transition process. And so I do encourage companies to create your GES for veteran employees, just like they would for, you know, other groups

Leighann Lovely 32:15

Right. Now. I absolutely, that's, I mean, that should be one of the first it frustrates me that the very people who are defending our country are the people who are thought of last,

William Toti 32:31

yeah, yeah. We get used to that, though, don't we? Again, and that's why, again, that's part of the message with stop saying thank you for your service, and start to saying something that's meaningful, right? So doing something that's meaningful, you really want to thank them, help them in their transition process. And so that's the message I try to leave with companies.

Leighann Lovely 32:54

Right. So you work with window companies typically engage you? And you know, how do they engage you and you know,

William Toti 33:04

The engine of intergroup interaction in 2022 is LinkedIn. So they find me on LinkedIn, and they say, Hey, look, we're trying to revise our veteran transition and training curriculum for new employees. Would you, you know, would you be willing to help that kind of thing? And I to date, I've been doing all this kind of work, pro bono. As my, as the demand signal increases? I don't know how much longer I'll be able to do, because just simply because of matter of who do you help the most? I mean, first, there's an inclination that I'll help companies with higher numbers, because he can affect more people with, you know, the same footprint or same engagement time. But But again, I haven't reached that point yet.

Leighann Lovely 33:54

Wow, you've this has all been pro bono, that you've been assisting companies? And

William Toti 33:59

yes, yeah, no, it's one of the things I I don't say much. But I wrote this book, at my own cost is spent years, two years writing it, and paid a lot of money. And it was a hybrid publication, where the publisher paid part and I paid for. And everything I'm doing is never not doing this to make money. Obviously, I'm doing it to try to give back. But the effect will never break even on the thing. But But it's so important, right? I'm trying to put my time where my mouth is and do give us give back. And I'm happy to help companies improve their veteran transition training. You know, if they're serious about it, and I do want to make sure they're serious about it before I'm willing to keep to engage because there are companies that are serious, and I want to spend my time what's going to do the most good,

Leighann Lovely 34:57

Right? No, that's and that's absolutely I mean, that is absolutely positively amazing. Because like I said earlier, like you've said, there are so many veterans out there. And my, my partner at my day job, her husband is a military man. She, you know, I've seen her travel around. Because he gets relocated, and she's, you know, and he is, he's navy. So he's, you know, out there and

William Toti 35:32

Family, my family moved 15 times that active duty career. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 35:37

so let's do so she right now she's in San Diego. And she's hoping to actually make her way back to back around to, you know, this area where I'm at. But, again, she, because she has that connection, and she understands as a recruiter, she's able to help translate some of the military or veteran people. What they've done in the military to the civilian, you know, the civilian world, unfortunately, you know, after you do that step, it's, you know, you send them to an employer, and, and then you have to step back and say, Okay, I hope this employer is going to be, you know, able to, you know, help them and, and I've seen, you know, I've sent some people to companies where they had, they were, let me see, they had the automatic nail guns, the individual walked into the facility, and people were using nail guns, and I think he practically ran out the door, because, again, this person was in a combat situation. And I don't know if you've ever heard Neil guns going off, it sounds just like a sure it sounds just like a gun. You know, so I have, I've personally seen the effects of just sending individuals to interviews, or seeing individuals in jobs or hearing the stories of individuals looking for jobs, because they, they're struggling to find ones that translate to what they've done, or, you know, being fired because they didn't smile too much, or they didn't smile enough, you know, in my heartbreaks, because, again, these individuals signed up. And no matter what they did, they still signed up and put their, you know, potentially could have put their life on the line to defend our country. And now we're being left out in the cold with that limited amount of support when they're ready to transition back into civilian life. And that, to me, is not acceptable.

William Toti 37:46

I agree. I worked with a lot of headhunters in my industry career. And I found myself spending a lot of time with the head owners to train them on how to how to train the candidates that they were working with. And if I spent some time doing that now, as well, I won't say that I doing that pro bono for it, because I think Heidrick and struggles can afford me. But anyway, the point I'm making is my challenge to the headhunters, you've sent me a candidate, I heard him and then boom, you're nowhere to be found when they turn out not to work out. And I expect you to be invested in this in this candidate, right. And in order to do that, you need to understand how to truly measure how you know what they're going to their probability of success in the role. And so I'm happy to help you evaluate military candidates and help you prepare the military candidates for civilian life, because the government is not going to do it. And again, that's the way I pound the table. When I talk to companies, I'm gonna say you, you think you're gonna get somebody that's ready to transition to your company. And they're not right, the government is failing in that mission. Right? So it's up to you.

Leighann Lovely 39:12

And now is the time that we are lacking people to go to work, we're lacking skilled people to go to work, right. And these individuals want to go to work. And I gotta tell you, the military has a pretty strict policy about no showing your job. These are going to be individuals who show up every day. Absolutely. There. I mean, so if you want an individual who's going to show up, put forth the effort every single day, and really is hungry to go to work and provide for their family. This is the kind of candidate that you want. Now, are they going to come with maybe a little bit of baggage or a little bit of extra training? Because they're transitioning? Yeah, you may have to put a little effort in up Front.

William Toti 40:01

Yeah, I would characterize it as things that might need to be unlearned. Absolutely. But you're you've got to exactly right. They're gonna have wonderful attributes that you won't find when you hire somebody off the street. Right. Okay, that comes with a counterpoint that they may not, not will, but may add things that need to be unlearned. And as long as you understand that and help them online it, it's going to work out great.

Leighann Lovely 40:26

Yep. Yeah, no, I, and it, like I said, it's a, it's a pain point and a frustration for me. And obviously, for you, otherwise, you wouldn't be on this mission, you wouldn't have written this book, you wouldn't be, you know, talking about this. And so yeah, this is a great topic that needs to be talked about more and employers need to, to invest in an understanding what this means. So yeah, so again, the book is from CO to CEO, a practical guide for transitioning from military to industry leadership. So check out that book, I am going to check that out, too. So yeah, so we are we are coming pretty close to time. But I want to get in the, the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

William Toti 41:23

Geez, I think I would go back to my 17 year old self and say, accept the fact you're not going to be an astronaut. But your life is going to be terrific anyway. So just embrace it, and drive forward with as much vigor as you can.

Leighann Lovely 41:40

That's, that's awesome. Now I got to ask someone, you were 17 years old when you went in? Yes. Did you come from a military family?

William Toti 41:49

Oh, so not at all. Okay,

Leighann Lovely 41:52

So now I enlisted at 17 My parents had to send me away. So I got what what what made you decide that the military life was for you?

William Toti 42:02

Well, I mean, truth is in the 1970s. And the Vietnam War was still going on. My mother was dead set against this. Now the Vietnam War was winding down. And the draft had just ended. And she said, I've been worried all these years about you getting drafted and draft ends, and you enlist. So she went crazy. But the truth was, I couldn't afford any of the colleges I wanted to get into. Right? I wanted to high end college. And we lived in Youngstown, Ohio, outside of Youngstown, Ohio. I didn't want to go to Youngstown State that was all I could afford. And so the military provided, right. And so I was very happy about that. And, you know, in those days, that was the only way to become an astronaut to write you needed to be a military pilot. And so that was kind of part of the plan. So it all came together. And it worked out.

Leighann Lovely 42:54

So I What movie is that? I can't think I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here looking at you. And I'm picturing us at this young William with you know, dressing up, there's a movie and I can't think of what it is the the, the little boy who's you know, putting on the astronaut, you know, costume and staring at the stars. And you know, I'm sorry, I know i'm on a tangent.

William Toti 43:16

That's pretty much what the way I was right? During that tidy up description.

Leighann Lovely 43:20

Yeah, during that time, I think that was like the number one thing everybody wanted to be an astronaut.

William Toti 43:26

I was, you know, I think I was 11 or 12 when Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon, watch it live. And oil. Boy, that was a motivate. Thank God for that. Because it put a fire in my belly. I was a physics major with the academy, you know, to, to really do well in school, and to study hard. And, um, and it really set the stage for my life. So I think everybody needs something to motivate them. I'm sad for people who don't have that. Something that drives them. And for me, that's what it was.

Leighann Lovely 44:01

Okay, and here's one one more follow up quick show. So you go now you're in the deep, deep, I mean, how deep can you go and in a summaries

William Toti 44:13

It's classified but we say greater than 800 feet. Okay.

Leighann Lovely 44:17

So you had to have seen some crazy things. Right. So what is the craziest thing that you can you tell me what's the greatest, obviously doesn't have to be classified?

William Toti 44:30

Like craziest thing I can think of I cannot talk about. See, what's the craziest thing I can talk about? I'm not sure I know. As far as on a submarine, right, right. I was independent on a 911 Yeah, it wasn't crazy. It was very sad, right? Yeah. But you know, no, I can't think of anything. Crazy. The story I told you about the lady who went crazy after we shut the hatch. We weren't even submerged yet. That's probably the craziest thing. Because you can't tell. What's the hashCode shot you can't sell if you're underwater? Not, as far as you know, once you submerge it's not.

Leighann Lovely 45:10

I know, I have this idea in my head that like, oh, there's windows everywhere. No windows.

William Toti 45:15

No windows. Sorry. It's a worship. Glasses not good for worship.

Leighann Lovely 45:24

Somebody, hey, don't throw a rock, you might break the window. Yeah, that's terrible. And that's right. And that's to take this to a serious moment. You were you were at the Pentagon during September 11. My God, I don't even know how to. And this is the moment where I say, Thank you for your service. And, sir, I mean, deepest. Thank you for, you know, everything that you have been through and survived. And that's just I can't imagine the horrors of that day and and the people and every things that everybody experienced that is

William Toti 46:11

You do have a lot of survivor's guilt I lived in a lot of my friends didn't, but you get through it. And, you know, it was a tough day. And the days that followed, were equally tough. I was put in charge of the Navy's recovery effort on September 12. And so the days that followed were equally tough. But you know, I talk about it every year, around the anniversary, just so people remember, you know, I call the Pentagon, the forgotten 911. Everybody forgets that a plane hit us too. Because not as many people died. New York deserves the attention he gets. But to the families that lost loved ones in the Pentagon is no less. Project.

Leighann Lovely 46:54

Yeah, no. And that's, I'm, my heart goes out to do you and everybody that you lost and everybody that was involved in that. So okay, so wrapping up, if somebody wanted to reach out to you to, you know, talk with you about your book, or to reach out to you, you know, just how would they go about doing that?

William Toti 47:17

Well, they can, they can email me through my website and website is William toady, Tod, spelled t o ti.com. We am totally.com. And the book is available everywhere. It's an audio book, it's in, you know, Apple books, it's an it's on Amazon, Kindle everything. So it's easy to find. And you can email me via my website.

Leighann Lovely 47:39

Excellent. William, this has been such an amazing conversation. I think that you know, what you do and, you know, advocating for veterans is just an amazing thing. So I really appreciate that you took the time to come on and talk with me today.

William Toti 47:54

Well, thanks for having me. It's a very important subject. I'm so glad you're you're talking about it. So thank you.

Leighann Lovely 48:00

Contact William

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/williamtoti

E-mail – william@williamtoti.com

Wedsite – http://williamtoti.com

Don't forget to check out his book - From CO to CEO, A Practical Guide for Transitioning from Military to Industry Leadership

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

veteran, military, people, transition, company, civilian, employees, submarine, understand, industry, book, navy, fail, employers, training, job, conversation, individuals, point, active duty

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Speaking with John not only made me laugh until I cried, but he also taught me a great deal. John is a brilliant man that founded FORTLOG Services. He is a coach, guide, and facilitator as well as the Author of Run Toward the Roar. John specializes in Workforce Wellness and Culture Alignment. This is a conversation that you should tune into!

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:07

I have the amazing privilege of speaking with John Robertson today. John is the founder and president of FORTLOG Services inspired and driven by his values, John acts as a facilitator, coach and guide for his clients as they trust, discover and expand what they can do, uses concrete, verifiable processes to help them achieve demonstratable solution focused results. remaining faithful to his passion and principles. John invests himself in his vocation without reservation, he provides spirit filled insightful guidance that his clients use to amplify their lives and their businesses. John truly provides leadership people can follow through storms. John, I am so excited to have you here to talk with me today. Why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

John Robertson 02:06

Well, it's my pleasure to be here. And I'm looking forward to our conversation. And so John Robertson with FORTLOG Services. And one of the things that I do is, and I'm because I use personal examples. So I'm talking about what I do so that I can talk about the human being in a moment, but transforming traditional crisis response in workplaces and leveraging leadership that is trustable, followable, and respectable, even when they're not likable. And so one of the end because the event is never the real crisis, Leighann, this is becoming a huge significant impact on our well being on engagement, and so forth. And I've been doing it for 30 plus years, I got started in a small community, you know, I don't know if you know how small towns work. But everybody knows everybody, including some of the things that we shouldn't know. And a friend of mine called and said, My husband got really walloped psychologically at work, I need you to come and talk to him. And from there, it was just, you know, I like people, I care for people. And I'm not interested in fixing, diagnosing or stuff. So a little snippet of my background.

Leighann Lovely 03:26

So you said something that I find really, extremely fascinating is that the and I may get this verbiage wrong, but that the event is never the real crisis. Yes. So expand on on what you mean by that.

John Robertson 03:47

Well, perfect illustration happens in you and I are driving along in a vehicle and do you know what? Black ice is?

Leighann Lovely 03:56

yes

John Robertson 03:58

Okay, you and I hit black ice that that your pickup truck spins, you get back on the road, we carry on and you're well, that was kind of ugly, you want to stop for a coffee, and I still have both hands on the holy crap rail, because I'm still back where we started to spin. And, and most people react to things they think are crises, you know, somebody gets killed or job loss or so forth. But what about that beloved person who got diagnosed with cancer or that divorce or that that really, really, really well respected person and she's retiring. A leader, all of a sudden, now he or she is put in that position where they need to provide support to somebody for performance for constructive criticism. And it's not constructive feedback. It's criticism because some of the things that were done were wrong and you don't want this, I wasn't trained to do this, I was trained to productivity performance. And, and so the event is not the crisis.

Leighann Lovely 05:12

So it's, it's the, everything else that happens. Because of, you know, the preceding emotions the preceding reactions.

John Robertson 05:26

One and Leighann you're bang on a crisis is not over until the reactions subside. Okay.

Leighann Lovely 05:34

Wow, that and that's, I've never heard it put. So I guess, simply to make it more understandable, because you're right. You know, there are people who are still who are still in the middle of, for instance, just reached, obviously, we just went through a pandemic, there are people who are still, you know, emotionally recovering from that. So they are still in that, that we're still in that crisis, because people are still recovering from it.

John Robertson 06:06

And you've put your finger on a key problem, because a lot of people will think that quote, unquote, because the crisis is over, we'll go back to normal, right? Number one, normal died, when we hit Christ, a COVID. Whatever we were doing, then, is no longer what we're doing now. Things have shifted. But the second part of that is, while we're going through a storm, whatever that means to a person or an organization, 90% of humans will press through it, you know, the stiff upper lip, keep your chin up, you know, all this stuff that we we do to keep our head in the game to get through it. It's afterwards that we start as the things wind down, that we start to realize, you know, okay, this, this, and this, and I'm not going to comment on a woman's age, but I'm going to take a shot in the dark that you're over 21. And, yeah, and just my mom's voice is ringing in my head right now, John, don't ask a woman or age. So I'm not asking but, but one of the things that, you know, when you get to be over 21, the mind says, Well, you can play this game, it's not a big deal. It's the next two or three days that your body is saying, you moron. Why did you think you were taught you are so going to pay for this? It's the exact same premise that applies with significant events and crises. Change could be a crisis for some people.

Leighann Lovely 07:44

Right? Well, and it's, it's interesting, because usually for I guess, for me, when a crisis is taking place, depending on the length of it, usually, I go into an immediate fix, you know, fix what you can right now survive, survive, survive. And then when that event passes, it is when I feel the effects emotionally of what just took place. Because I'm in survival mode. I'm going you know, I'm trying to protect my family. I'm trying to figure out how to get through it. And then eventually, I feel all of the you know, the crushing weight of whatever that might have been or so and.

John Robertson 08:37

And Leighann, what you're putting your finger on is and I'm going to challenge your listeners to don't just focus on the emotional. Think about, and I call it charley horse effect, because if you've ever had a physical charley horse, many of us have had those coaches that say, oh, skated off, walk it off, you're fine. It doesn't hurt. If dirt on it. Yeah, drink more water, eat a banana, whatever. And, and Leighann, what you just put your finger on is emotionally after we come through that survive phase. Emotions are one charley horse area. But look around. Look at the relationship Charley horses that are going on right now. What was the term polarized is an understatement for what it seems to be happening right now. Murrell Charley horses relational turning horses psychological turning horses and of course spiritual and everybody's got a belief system don't go all get you know listeners don't go all getting religious on me. I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about spiritual beliefs. Like if Leighann if you're my boss, and I believe you're out to get me. I'm now a spirit trouble person, because I have a belief system, right? It goes way beyond just the spirit, right? No, I get what you're saying. So you can and what's happening is going through events changes, crises, like including COVID. But nothing, maybe that long lasting. Think about all these Wallops that are happening as we're getting through it.

Leighann Lovely 10:26

Right? Yes, absolutely. So you started fORTLOG nearly 25 years ago,

John Robertson 10:34

It was actually it was longer than that. But I was trying to sound younger. But yeah, we'll just we'll go with 25 plus 25 plus years ago.

Leighann Lovely 10:44

Okay. So tell me a little bit about, you know, some of the highlights of the journey. So far, you kind of touched on how that began. Real briefly touched on that. But I mean, this obviously, 25 plus years, I'm sure that you have seen countless. I mean, we've had some traumatic events in our economy. We've Yeah, I mean, tell me a little bit about how you work with businesses, how you work with individuals.

John Robertson 11:23

So a couple things, I call it the hot water tea bag of fact, if we want to find out what's important to a person or an organization, put them in hot water, just like a tea bag, what's inside always leaks up. So I was talking with this woman not long ago, and she was telling me about her daughter, and her daughter's favorite color is orange. And the daughter came to her and said, Mom, I want my bedroom to be done in orange. And what leaks out of a person is, well, no, you're not going to paint your bedroom orange, or in five years, 10 years when my daughter realizes orange is not really that cool or trendy, or whatever the buzzword is she wanna changed and therefore pick my battles. And, and so you also use the term that I like that you said, Well, I've never heard it put so simply, well, people have heard the KISS principle before. But for Robertson, I use the kisser principle, which is keep it simple Robertson. And and so one of the things that I love are those moments when people are able to reframe stuff and say, I never looked at it that way. Well, yeah, that that makes complete sense. So for example, if my this is true story, my son borrowed our car. Sorry, that's a lie. Our son borrowed my car. And he hit ice corner to corner, bounce my car off the curb. Brand new like it was, I don't know if it was eight months old, brand new. And so he drives it home. And it drives like an old horse and buggy kind of carriage. It has a flat spot on the rim. And so there's two voices going on in my head. There's the one voice my new car. But there's the one that came out that said, William, you okay, well, yeah, but dad, you know, I can fix my car. Yeah, that doesn't mean that he can bounce the car off the curb whenever he feels like it. But in that moment, I wanted him to know that you know what, I've done death notifications for people who were more concerned about the damage to the car, because they were in the wrong than they were but the person who got killed. And in the workplace, so a woman was off work. And she came back COVID She came back to work. And it was almost a dementia like, and and it's not a criticism of those who have that disease. It's a calling a spade, a shovel, symptom, description. And this woman came back and she was just like she had dementia. And so finally somebody said, Well, John, we're dealing with a performance issue, yada, yada, yada. And I said, Well, why don't you just ask, I saw this behavior before you left. I'm seeing this behavior now. What changed? What's going on? What can I do? What do you mean make it that simple? Yeah, cuz you're just describing the behavior. We're not judging what the behavior is based. It turns out this woman while they were off, slipped and fell, smoked her head on the ground and got a bad concussion. One of the side effects of concussion is dementia like symptoms. Guess what happens in the workplace? Now they laugh when she forgets, because they're not upset because she's a human being. It's it's a result of the side effect of a concussion. Those are my stories. It's never the, you know, we increased our profit $400 million?

Leighann Lovely 15:32

Well, if you don't keep your people healthy and engaged and appreciated and valued, don't worry about your profit. Because your turnover costs, we'll look over at look after any profit, right? But it's interesting that you can walk into a company. And that's not what and I'm not saying all companies, you can walk into a company and that is not their concern at all. Their concern is oh, well, hey, we need we need to figure out how to pump more product out the door, we need people who are, you know, just gonna come in here and they don't, they don't care about how their people feel they don't. So I was working with a company that they were so short handed, that they made it mandatory that all of their office, people stay late and go out onto the manufacturing floor.

John Robertson 16:27

Wow, Will that ever motivate them?

Leighann Lovely 16:31

Right? What do you think? I mean, this is, you know, what do you think happened to the office people? You know,

John Robertson 16:39

They might have stayed late for a few days, until another job came up.

Leighann Lovely 16:47

Right? They immediately pissed every single person at the company off and lost a mass quantity of their office staff. So not only now, are they short handed on the manufacturing floor, they now have nobody in the office to run the front end of the business. It's like you what you.

John Robertson 17:12

You actually just reminded me of a scenario because I had this discussion. It was in a media company. And I don't remember how many they had maybe 30 employees, 40 employees. So it was decent size, but not big by some people's standards. And Mike is the owner operators, namely C, E L, I think he was but anyways, I said, why should we do this work? And I said, Okay, Mike, no names, but think about the last person who just left your company 80% of the reason that people leave a company has nothing to do with the job. Did this person leave as a result of the job? Well, no, he didn't. Okay, so now go back to yours. And think about how much money you spent training and resourcing and equipping him to do that job. I said, I don't need to know what the number is. But do you have a number in mind? Yeah, when you word it that way, it's actually quite depressing. I said, Okay. So now, why don't you take that same amount of money, go in your backyard and just use it to light a campfire? Because that's all you've done? You've just burned it. Yep. His response was really simple. He said, Well, we need to because remediate, we really need to get things up and running. And I said, Yeah, and you just burn through 10s of 1000s of dollars on training. And now you got to spend the same amount of money to get somebody else out, but you're two years behind. And his answer was beautiful was so where do you want to start? Yeah. And to your comment with that company, you mentioned, office, people are the unique anomalies, because it's like custodial people in a healthcare setting. Many times they're not noticed. But I can shut a hospital down in minutes. If the custodial and administrative people say, You know what, I'm not doing my job, that everything's shut down. Right?

Leighann Lovely 19:25

Right. It takes every single person at a job it doesn't matter what they do or not at a job at a company. Doesn't matter what they do. If if, if everybody is not doing their part of the work. A company can be shut down in minutes. And to your point at a hospital if you don't have those custodial people cleaning the proper way that they're supposed to be cleaning. Doing. You're right. You. I mean, you send in, you know the health department.

John Robertson 19:59

We have a friend of ours she works in a school. And all these schools were during COVID were at school at home. And then when they were allowed back in school and they had an outbreak, the school got closed. This one school that she worked at because of the custodian, never closed. He was one of those people that was so courteous, polite, even when a kid threw up the joke in the PA and the page system was protein spill in such a such a classroom and the custodial Peters is named Peter went and cleaned it up. The school never had an outbreak through the entire season.

Leighann Lovely 20:42

Wow. That's That's unheard of.

John Robertson 20:47

And, you know, it is, and Peter was one of those people that nobody would recognize typical custodial, he would wear jeans and all the normal work clothes. And one of the things that happens is and the way I teach a healthy workplace is teach it as a human body. When one part of the body is not doing what it's wired to do. Everything else goes out of alignment, including a sphincter.

Leighann Lovely 21:16

And it's and it's Sorry, sorry. And I find it I find it wildly interesting that companies don't that they don't get it. Put your office people to work on the manufacturing floor. You don't you don't already see that they're going to be I think it took four weeks, four weeks, for the VP of HR to be out the door. That's all it took four weeks. I mean, because this was not extremely long ago. So there were jobs everywhere, four weeks, and she was gone. She found a new job. She's and she had called me first. My day job. I'm in the staffing industry. Hey, Leon, do you know any? Do you know any jobs that they're looking for? Was she VP? Or was she I can't remember her title. But she I mean, she called me and I remember seeing her number come up on my phone. It was after hours. It was after it was like 515. And I'm like, I wonder why she's calling me after business hours. But you know, I picked it up. And she's like, I need a new job. And I'm like, What? What do you mean, you need why? I thought you were happy. She's like, Yeah, they just made a ruling that or they just made a notice of all in the employees that we have to go and work on manufacturing floor, she's like, I'm too old for this. I'm, you know, I'm, I can't my body can't even handle it. And I'm like, the fact that companies and that the higher ups don't have enough understanding and foresight to like to get that that's going to be the immediate reaction boggles my mind

John Robertson 22:49

But Leighann okay, but you use the key word. And that is foresight. And part of what happens. And this is where leaders are getting shot out from both sides. Because they got their productivity performance, they get all those demands of what they're supposed to be producing. And on the other side, they got all the people behind them saying hold it, we can't work all these hours, we can't do all these things. And leaders become a rope in a tug of war in and I'm talking HR as much than the C suite leaders because they're the ones responsible for executing on all this stuff. But the key in foresight is values. And I always always come back to values. And there's not the stuff that's posted on the website. And in brochures. It's the stuff that leaks out in hot water. Ideally, the work is done beforehand, so that when we're in hot water, the right stuff leaks out. But foresight can only happen through a values lens, because values are always short term costly for long term benefit. So my comment about that part of the body that has to function that you tried to get a grip when I use is when we're talking about all body parts have to work, right. And values mean, okay, you know, and that's like saying the heart to the heart. Okay, I'm tired of total total photo all day long. I want to do some breathing. I want to be like the lungs. I want to inhale, exhale, I'm done. I don't know. I'm just going to breathe. Nobody with any understanding of a human being would think that's a healthy sign in the human body. But we do it in organizations all the time, because our values are not clear. We're not sure why people are in the rules or in we're not clear on what they're wearing as their gifting is, what their passion is, or the personality, and as a result, we think we can shift the bladder to be the lungs and the lungs to be the heart. And we think we're going to have a healthy, thriving organization, right? It's the, it's the common mistake that that organizations make of, we've got somebody who's successful in this role, but we're gonna, we're gonna see if they can fit into this seat on the bus and be successful at it. Or we're gonna, we're gonna promote somebody into a management role, but we're not going to give them any management training, we're just going to let them figure it out on their own. Well, and, and to that comment, the old adage of we rise to the level of our incompetence, is my sister was a beautiful example of this. My sister was one of the best principals and I'm not bragging because she's my sister. In fact, there was many days I didn't like her. But that's a family dynamic, no. But she was one of the most gifted principals in a school context, because she went in values were really clear. And if you didn't step up to the plate, she found you another place to work. She got promoted to be a superintendent at the Board Office. And, and I remember talking with her one day, and she said, yeah, I gotta get out of here. Why? Cuz if I stay, I think I might be off for homicide charges, cuz there are some people that I'm going to kill. And, and, and she, she was promoted, like she wrote curriculums, she wrote leadership principles. But she couldn't be in the office where it was all politics, and not actually doing that stuff.

Leighann Lovely 26:50

And that's, and that is a mistake that happens all the time. Is that over correct. And then if you are the person that's accidentally been promoted up, and then you say, You know what, I want to step back down. In our society right now. They're just like, what it is looked at as, Oh, my God, well, no, yeah. I mean, what are you failing? How dare there, if there are just there's some times where we don't realize that we are in the perfect role. And I see this happen at companies where, especially in salespeople who are promoted to being managers, you're awesome, amazing producer, you are great at your job, you're and then all of a sudden, they get a promotion into being managing other people.

John Robertson 27:44

That you've probably seen, because I have is somebody who's really good in an engineering role, whether they're an engineer or not, but they're really good in their engineering role. And they get promoted to be the leader of the engineering team, and everybody hates them within a month. Now, one of the things that you just perfectly described is, there's an adage that in the book or row run toward the roar, but the premise behind it is, there is no greater failure in life, than to succeed in a way that does not matter in the long run. And so there are two ladders in life. There's the ladder of significance. And there's the ladder of success. And we're climbing these two ladders against two different walls. Sometimes significance will give us success. Sometimes success gives us significance. All of us are ladder climbers, if you're not growing forward. Basically, if you're not growing, you're dying. It's a really simple biology principle. However, what happens and where I work with organizations that have done the ladder climbing on the rung ladder, is we actually help reframe the communication strategy to say, You know what, we haven't failed. We just lost our way. We're reclaiming what success means for us, because we got motivated and steered by what people thought she was. Success should mean for us.

Leighann Lovely 29:23

And that you made a comment if we're not growing. We're dying. I'm not exactly well, some people assume that growing means that you are moving you know, climbing that ladder and continuously I disagree that you have to absolutely be climbing the ladder. Growing means so many different things. And I truly believe that you know, growing can just be learning new things every day and expanding your knowledge and it can it just becoming more emotionally you know, emotional intelligence plays a key role into that, you know? So growth can be so many different things. Expression.

John Robertson 30:08

Yeah, and your your right lamp. And when I talk about climbing a ladder, I'm not talking about the rungs of success. I'm talking about growing a tree that is growing as climbing ladders called height. Yes. And, and so like a child, you know, a child that is growing will stand straighter. But, but what's your perfectly describing? Is how am I maturing? Now I'm still working on that part of my humor gives me a way, you know, I'm getting older. Maturity is, is still a little bit behind on my you can be wildly successful and have limited maturity, as long as you have a little bit of emotional intelligence. I think those are two completely different things. You don't have to be mature to have emotional. Well, and the kid and I'm overqualified. And, and part of part of what happens is, it's a simple question. How do you how do I want people to describe me in a non physical way? Because at my, at my funeral, I'm probably not going to be in attendance, but at my funeral, how do I want people you know, John, dad, whoever loves his job, if that's all they can say about me, have I succeeded? And I also want people there, you know, for more than my will, dark humor alert from a funeral home director, Mike's comment was, Don't ever forget John, where there's a will there's relative and, and so one of the things that that I want from my journey, is I want people to say, You know what, he was such a stone in the shoe, sometimes. He was a pain in the neck if he was that high up. But man, I knew that he was in my boat rowing, even when I felt the boat was sinking. He was encouraging. And he made the adventure, and I am so glad that he helped me get on my path.

Leighann Lovely 32:24

So you had mentioned you and I want to briefly talk about this your book, run towards the roar, right? Yes. So tell me a little bit about that.

John Robertson 32:36

Well, the premise is really, it's the term I coined is Passio Fidelis. Passio is the root word of passion. Fidelis is the root word of fidelity, faithfulness, loyalty. When we define our refined double new norm, what we want to grow towards what our definition of success means. And for me, success is not about being the one with the most toys is it's about being that significance. So Passio Fidelis is what am I passionately faithful to and committed to that in spite of the storms, I will find a way to get back in the game and finish well, and the title is based on the old adage, the proverb, whatever it's called story of as a lion ages, his mane, his teeth, his muscle tone, deteriorate, all the lion has to keep his pride is roar. And so the way a lion hunts is he will go to one side of a herd of antelope. The pride will go to the other side. When the lion roars animal instinct is fight flight freeze appease, majority of those animals will flight will run away from the roar and aka run into bigger hunting have bigger problems, the hunting party, humans are the only ones that we can train to run toward the roar. Thus Passio Fidelis what you just described in that woman calling you at 515 is an organizational approach that was fight flight, freeze appease based and therefore heard a roar and as a result, everybody ran away and now they ran into bigger problems.

Leighann Lovely 34:33

Wow, that is that's awesome. I'm gonna, I'm going to I have not had the opportunity to read the book. I have a four year old at home. And you know, to get five minutes to myself to go to the bathroom is a struggle. So I am going to definitely read the book just based on that description alone. Sounds amazing.

John Robertson 34:55

So well and it's kisser based it's write a lot of us get stuck, keep it simple Robertson based, it's a lot of people get sucked into what I call the eddy effect. We have our emotions, we feel a certain way b, we behave according to our emotions. And all of a sudden, we end up with stinky thinking. When we define what our values are, and are we passionate about them, then we behave according to those values, which means our emotions follow. It's like going to the gym. I've very, very, very, very seldom have I ever heard anybody saying, Oh, I'm really looking forward to exercising, I am so excited to get to go to the gym. But almost everybody. So if we start with the emotions, we never go, if we start with the thinking that says, I'm going to go and then we behave and do it, our emotions follow and say, I'm so glad I went to the gym, exact same principle with our values. Right? If we if we constantly allowed our emotions to lead our, our actions, we would we would do much less than what we do, because our emotions are usually. Yeah, I'll leave it at that. Yeah. And if you to vote Thumper out of Bambi if you can't say something nice, yeah, yeah. So, so But the premise is, is I mean, think about the term. How many times a day do we hear people say, Well, we're just evaluating our decision. Okay. What are the values that you are E-value ating. On?

Leighann Lovely 36:45

I absolutely. Well, first of all, I'm a salesperson, I hate when somebody says, we're going to evaluate, we're going to review this and get back to you. It is the most irritating thing I also in my personal life can stand. I'll get back to you on that. When somebody presents something to me. I make a decision immediately. I am one of those people that's, you know, you want to buy this. No, I don't do you? Do you need this? I look, no, I don't. I mean, it's it's hands down. I make a decision. Unless it's, you know, buying a house, you know, I'm not gonna immediately walk, buying a car buying large items, obviously. But when it's minimal risk things, people who can't make a decision. It it's just yes or no.

John Robertson 37:38

But make a decision. And this is part of the change that happened, the transformation that happened during COVID. Pre COVID. People saw busy as a badge of honor. Yeah. I'm busy. I'm busy. And in I used to spin people out to say, John, are you busy? No. Why? Are you not busy? No. Really. Not, I would clarify. I have a full calendar. But no, I'm not busy. Busy is determined by other people's values. Full is mine. Right? Post COVID. People are trying to figure out because they don't want to be busy anymore. What they're trying to figure out what's important,

Leighann Lovely 38:28

Right? And this is the rise of the virtual assistant. This is the rise of, you know, the delegation of duties. This is the rise of so many different ways of living life. And, and I absolutely love it, because for the first time people are going I don't want to work until 10 o'clock at night. Because I look at somebody and they say, oh, yeah, I I put in 60 hours a week and I'm like, What's wrong with you? And they're like, Well, what do you mean? I'm like, You're you're saying that as if I should be like, oh, good for you. That's awesome. That's not It's not Where are you living your life? Where is your work life?

John Robertson 39:10

And I'm gonna be rude on that. Because part of the advantage of being busy and being away is my wife misses me. If I'm always at home, I've actually heard the expression of how can I miss you if you never go away?

Leighann Lovely 39:28

So yes, there's that there's it and I, I love the opportunity to, I mean, don't get me wrong. I work from home sometimes. But there are times where I'm like, I have to get like Mondays Tuesdays and Wednesdays. I have to be out of the house. My dog my puppies driving me crazy. My child's following me around my husband, you know, it's like, I know. I need to get away from you people. I love you. But I got to get away from you.

John Robertson 40:03

And that's, but isn't that the whole premise of balance and, and ironically, when I'm talking about Passio, Fidelis and other things for leadership and people to thrive, one of the first things that we do is exactly what you're putting your finger on. I just use it in a different context. Many times people think that unplugging from work will recharge them. That's the same thinking that says we can put our cell phones and cell phones on airplane mode to recharge them. Now I'm not an IT specialist.

Leighann Lovely 40:40

Yeah, no, right? No, go just put it on airplane mode, it'll, be ready to go and a little bit, its not connected, it's not connected to Wi Fi, it'll recharge. Right. Now one of the things that actually you just mentioned a term that I learned, so we have a cottage hunt camp property that has, it's off the grid, there's excetera, etc, no cell, well, there's cell coverage, but it's spotty at best.

John Robertson 41:09

If we leave our signal on, at or our Wi Fi on, we might normally get a day or two out of our battery. If we leave those signals on, or whatever that piece of technologies software is called. Our battery will not last half a day. Think about the human being that the things that are we're running minimized in the background, that if we don't plug into recharge, we're not going to have the battery to finish well.

Leighann Lovely 41:44

Right. And that's it's wow, that's really interesting. So the battery's being worn down because it's constantly being bumped with with Wi Fi on because it's constantly being beamed, pinged, banged, and constantly getting emails and notifications sent to it. So it's being linked on and blinked off, blinked on and blinked off, blinked on and blinked off. So when you put that as a human, the human being, when they are still in their own element, they're still living, you know, they're at home. They're, regardless of whether or not they are working, physically working or not. You've got TV, you've got social media, you've got all of these things happening, that your brain is still processing and intaking. And you've got your full life still happening around you that you can't shut off. Regardless, it's still an emotional draining on you. People think that, Oh, you have to recharge because you were on your feet running around all day. Sometimes people and this was a conversation my husband and I used to argue about he's like, Well, I'm more tired than you because I work a physical job. And I'm like, Whoa, wait a second, wait a second. You may or may physically be more, your body may physically feel more exhausted. But emotionally, that does not mean that I am not just as tired as you because all day long I've been, you know, I'm being bombarded with phone calls. And this and that. And I get irritated when people think that an office job is less exhausting than a physical job, or that they can't be at least compared in one way or another because it's,

John Robertson 43:30

I'm sitting here laughing, smirking. Because I was stupid enough to make that comment to my wife, because I was standing, doing training. And she works in an office and put it this way I was enlightened. By the time she was done. enlightening me. And, and, but to understand the neuroscience behind why this happens, is have you ever taken a holiday or cruise or whatever it is, you do? You have done. But you go on your holiday and you come back and you actually hear yourself saying, Jeepers, I took this holiday, but now I need a holiday because I'm tired from my holiday. Oh, yeah. What happens is when we go to a place that we're not familiar with, our brain doesn't go on to minimize. So for example, putting your coffee on at home shouldn't take all of our mental faculties. We should do a lot of it on routine. When we go away to a strange place. We don't have those routines we're focused on Okay, where's the coffee? What if we're doing a cruise or resort? Where do we get our food yada, yada, yada. And what happens is the brain is never on routine mode. So therefore, it's always on duty, which is why we come back tired, right? Yeah, and there's and my husband and I just went on a trip and it came

Leighann Lovely 44:59

I can I'm like, I need like two days to recover. I just want to crawl into bed and not get out of bed for two days and have somebody just bring me my meals. We went to we went to Colorado to, for a wedding. That was a destination wedding right in the Rocky Mountains. And it was just nonstop like all all the whole time. It was nonstop. You know, not to mention, we're also at, you know, altitudes, and everywhere we walked, I was like I might pass out. But, you know, you come back and you're like, there was an amazing trip. I feel rejuvenated from not, you know, from not working but physically exhausted from all of the activity.

John Robertson 45:38

I mean, and that's part of why, OK, what are those habits, hobbies and routines that we have to plug into, to keep recharging our batteries?

Leighann Lovely 45:51

So we are at time we've actually gone over, but I do want to get to the question of the season and let you you tell people how they can reach out to you, where they can get your book and all that kind of fun stuff. The question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

John Robertson 46:10

So I would go back to kind of the between college us between high school, college university and not listen to what people think would be success by clarify what my passion is, how I want to serve people, and then develop those skills. That's awesome. And easiest way to get hold of me is well, there's three, three things. So the domain is four. So the book is Run Toward The Roar dot online. But to get hold of me, the business is FORTLOG, because you got to have a fort safe place in the frontier, you know where you're going. A log is a journal to sail the seas because people are going to get seasick get going to the fort. And you don't want to go along fort log.co I work with people called a coach collaborator is Dotco. And just email me John at Fort log dot Cole. The other thing is the landing page is really simple. fortlog.co forward slash just like your website, let's dash talk. Dash HR.

Leighann Lovely 47:27

Awesome. John, this has been such an amazing conversation. I think we could probably talk for the next hour. But we are at time. And again, thank you so much for joining me.

John Robertson 47:40

It's been my pleasure and I really enjoyed the conversation and also the humor. It is very relaxed, therapeutic and energizing. So thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day

Contact John

LinkedIN – linkedin.com/in/johnrobertson-fortlog

E-mail – John@fortlog.co

Website – www.fortlog.co

Book – Run Toward the Roar

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, called, values, day, custodial, crisis, passio, happening, roar, talking, john, person, run, job, recharge, long, promoted, emotions, charley horse, company

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Creating real culture is about having an open honest environment that allows managers and employees to communicate with trust. Tom Manning the founder of The Pathway Academy through his own experience and growth created an amazing training and coaching program for businesses to learn how to break down walls and create better environments for people to work in and communicated in. This is one amazing conversation with an amazing person driven by a true desire to help.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned, and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host, Leighann. Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

This is going to be a great conversation today with Tom Manning. He is a specialist in emotional awareness and accountability. Tom is changing how managers and leaders approach accountability to get more consistent results in higher standards without anger, irritation, or avoidance.

Leighann Lovely 01:28

Tom, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have you here.

Tom Manning 01:33

Thank you very much for having me Can't wait. It's gonna be fun.

Leighann Lovely 01:35

Yeah, so why don't you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Tom Manning 01:39

Yeah, so my name is Tom Manning. And I sort of specialized in emotional awareness and accountability. And sort of got into that. We did a lot of business consulting for a long time. But, you know, went through a period of time. So read difficult relationships and stuff like that had to learn a lot about buying behaviors, and fear and insecurity and how that impacted my kids and my partner, and all that and how there's impacted me, and how you navigate all of that in a healthy way. We sort of started to a big part of that was taking personal responsibility. So how do I take responsibility for how I feel how I respond, how I process what's happening to me, how I react to an event. All these are my choices. And that's really where the accountability piece came from. As we started to more and more introduce what I sort of experienced my personal life into the workplace, we started to change how we approach accountability, so that we no longer need to avoid stuff, we don't need to rely on anger and irritation, we can deal with it in a different way, a more productive way. And an approach that just works a lot better to get more a more consistent approach. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 02:52

I totally love that. Because I think the hardest thing for any of us to do is to actually sit down look in the mirror and realize, Wow, am I the problem? And then one day realize that oh, okay, my behavior actually is, could be part of the issue. And but, and you and I talked about this, you know, prior to this conversation, when you have children, it's the true reflection of you, right? Because there's no lying to yourself, you know, you look in the mirror, and you see what you want to see. But when you have a child, you can't lie, when they all of a sudden start to reflect your own behavior and do something that you're like, wait, oh, my God, why are they doing that you go. Because I do that. You can no longer hide from it. You know that? The eye rolls that, you know, my husband and I do sometimes to each other? My daughter does. And I'm like, Oh my God. I do that, like all you can no longer hide behind the I don't do that very often. Well, no. Nope. Absolutely. So I love that, you know, the accountability piece is something that people really struggle with of, okay, I have to take accountability for my own reaction to a situation or my own behavior in this situation, and realize that I'm actually impacting the people around me, and creating maybe more stress of the situation. And then it's not always the other people in the room. That's the problem.

Tom Manning 04:26

Yeah, you're right. And like kids are such a mirror, you know, they just mirror they just mirror back at you and the amount of times that we can be so I think parenting is just the height of hypocrisy because we've shouted our kids and say, don't you shout at me? Like hello, you know? So it's the height of hypocrisy. We can get away with some of that more, I think in the workplace, but yeah, as it Yeah, it just ends up being reflected back at you. And if you're willing to look at that then it can be actually a bit uncomfortable, I think in the beginning because you start to realize, like I've, I've actually had a much bigger impact on these behaviors than I originally thought. And now I've got to take responsibility for that. And that's sometimes tough.

Leighann Lovely 05:19

Sometimes tough.

Tom Manning 05:21

Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, it's tough. There's no.

Leighann Lovely 05:26

Yeah, yep. So let's talk a little bit more about your journey, you know, you touched upon it on a high level. So talk about your journey. You your your business is, you know, pathway Academy. So, right. So tell me a little bit more about how you developed and, you know, a little bit more into what pathway Academy is.

Tom Manning 05:48

Yeah. So I think it all started where, well, a lot of that started, when I first started introducing these principles in the workplace. And I was sort of figuring this all out, one of the early things I did with a client was created this career pathway. And we wanted to sort of give, like, from when when we take apprentices on, we wanted to kind of give them a clearer way or route through that was the idea of these kind of roles. And one thing early on, I tweaked is we've got to be really clear about what the expectations are, so that they kind of know what good looks like. And it's easier for us to hold them accountable to those things if we need to, which we will at some time. Because one thing when in my personal life, my coach used to say clear sooner in our relationships, he will always go on about clear as soon as clear as soon as so if in your you've got tension between you and your partner, clear a sooner have the conversation sooner about what is happening, so that you can address it and be truthful about it and be honest about it and deal with it, rather than it just fester and just be this toxic thing in your relationship. So I used to go on all the time about clear as soon as I was like, well, if if we're going to start with this career pathway, we need to be start with clarity. What's the clarity around this relationship, this is what we're expecting from you. And in return, this is what you can expect from us. So we aligned it with pay. So and they just loved this, like these guys love this. And what I loved the most one thing that we'll always remember is we briefed out to the to this tape actually, it was sort of like some subsequent teams. But in the in the sort of rollout of this is one guy stood up. And we were asking for some feedback. And he said, What I love about this is I can take more responsibility. So now I know what the next level looks like and what I've got to do, I can take more personal responsibility for that, you know, because I understand more about what the next step looks like for me, so I can take more responsibility to get there. So I was like, bam, like, that's just amazing, isn't it? That's exactly what we have to do. So you started there, and, you know, sort of evolved into well, how do we now help these people to grow? And part of that is having on it, were more honest conversations? How do we accelerate the rate at which we can take them through the pathway, part of that is helping them to see their behavior more having to see the downside more, but doing all of that in a constructive, healthy learning based environment? And how do we take the fear out of this role? And how to take the fear out the relationships? So yeah, that's sort of where it all developed from, and hence why it's called pathway Academy.

Leighann Lovely 08:34

You know, it's interesting, because so many people that I've talked to, you know, it's about transparency, it's about understanding, it's about knowing how you get from point A to point B to point C to point and so on, and so on. Right. And I think this is what everybody has wanted, for years, you know, my, my grandfather just went to work, he punched a clock, he did his job and he went home, he didn't care about what the managers were doing. He didn't care about what the business was doing. He didn't that was just bred into him, that you didn't get to see your peek behind the curtain. But the generations that are exist now they they've had a chance to peek behind the curtain and now that they have, they just want the curtain to be open. Right? Yeah. They want to fully understand what is happening at the business. What is happening in relationships, what is that's this new, this new generation this new. And it's not even just the generation. It's the new thing everybody wants to fully understand. I guess the whys the what's the who's the Where's right. Yeah, and we all seem to function better when we have clarity and what we want need are expected to do and I mean, it's, it's, I feel like people feel more empowered when they are able to take control of their own. I guess Destiny And if you give them clarity on how they are capable of doing that, they feel empowered.

Tom Manning 10:07

Yeah, 100% like, like people just like to know where they stand. And I think when we did this pathway thing, what was great is like I used to say, we put all the cards on the table. So like, we put all the put all our cards on the table, there's nothing, there's nothing hidden here, we've made it super transparent, super clear, you now know, like, these are the behaviors, these are the soft skills, this is experienced, this is what it looks like, this is how you need. This is what the next year, if you're operating at the level above where you are now, that's what this is what that looks like. And we've spent in the time taking the time to articulate that in words, you know, even like, are you doing this more consistently? Is it that you're doing it to a greater depth? Is it that you're bringing a broader level of experience that you're able to anticipate things earlier? Like, what is it that's different about this level versus that level? And then as they they're like, oh, okay, I get a now I'm starting to understand what that looks like. And I can take more responsibility for it. And, and it's easier to have those conversations about where the gaps are. Because it's like, look, you know, you're doing that, but you're not quite doing it consistently enough, or with enough depth or whatever. And it helps with those conversations around the gaps. And it feels more of more of the relationship feels more like we're in this together to help you get to the next step, rather than some kind of confrontational type thing.

Leighann Lovely 11:32

And it doesn't that just seem obvious, like it should, right? It should just be like an obvious thing. Like, your manager comes to you and says, Hey, I have to write you up. And you're like, Well, why? Well, just because you know, you weren't doing you weren't doing well in this. And it's like, well, you know, I've been here for two years, you would think that you you have a conversation with me before we get to the write up period. But there are companies out there that don't do that. They just all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I'm being written up. But for what how? It's seems like it should be an obvious thing. Like, here's your job description. Here's what your responsibilities are, here's how you should execute it. Here's how you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But there are companies that don't do that. They're just like, No, here's your job, go do it. And if you don't do a good job in six months, they'll write you up. And you're like, Wait a second. I didn't even know that I was failing. Yeah, like, Yeah, well, we gave you the job description.

Tom Manning 12:34

It's funny, she said that you've made me you know, it just brings up a really great point. And I talked about one of the biggest mistakes around accountabilities is a lack of clarity around expectations. Now, one thing that went through my head when you said that is, we have so many unexpressed on verbalized expectations that I've given you just like say, you've joined the company, here's your job, spec, whatever, I have a load of expectations of how you're going to perform, how you're going to behave, how you're going to react, how you need meetings, and then but I don't express them, you know, somehow you're just meant to know this stuff, without me telling you. And then I get really disappointed because you don't give me the things that I didn't even ask for. I mean, how, you know, that's just ridiculous, you do that,

Leighann Lovely 13:17

Right. And this is the same in a marriage or a relationship, you start dating somebody and you're like, you have this idealistic idea of, you know, like, oh, this person is going to be, you know, they're gonna do this, this, this and this, and we're gonna be, you know, happy and we're gonna love each other. And then all of a sudden, you're like, I'm not happy. And then your partner goes, What do you mean? What, why? You never told me that you wanted me to buy you flowers, or that there was ever an expectation of, and some people are like, Well, I just assumed you would know that. Well, wait, wait a second. Some women don't like flowers. Some women like to be doubted. Same and I'm not just saying women, some men, some men prefer and I feel like we should be at a point in our in the world where you just have to simply say, Hey, honey, I would love it if occasionally you would go out and buy me flowers and chocolate strawberry covered strawberries. Like if that was all it was? How many relationships would not fail or take out the garbage? I don't know. I it shouldn't be just be a man's job. It should be a you know, split equally and couldn't relationships if if we were just all instead of being stuck in our head of like, this is what I think you should do and in and I'll keep it in my head. Just verbalize that in clarity.

Tom Manning 14:48

Yeah, it's such an expectations are such a massive part of relationships because disappointment is always preceded by an unmet expectation. So all that disappoint then turns into resentment turns into toxicity. And like, you know, it's just so unhelpful. And one of the things like in our house we have like that my coach used to say is ask clearly for what you want. So like, my kids will say, Oh, Daddy, I'm starving. And I say, Right. Are you sweetie? And she'll say, yeah, no, I'm really hungry. I would say, Okay. Say, Well, can I have something to eat? Yes, you can. Yeah. What do you want? Like, so I weren't, you know, unless they're making a statement, you're making a statement. And I'm being a bit pedantic about it. But I'm trying to, I'm being pedantic deliberate to teach them that asked clearly for what you want. Because what we do is we imply what we want, without actually asking for what we want. And then we get disappointed because they didn't give the thing we didn't ask for. So it's such a just,

Leighann Lovely 15:52

That is so real. Oh, my God, that is so brilliant. And I have this conversation constantly with my daughter, and then she's just, I'm really hungry, mommy, and I'm like, okay, great. Here's an apple. And then she's like, I don't want an apple. And I'm like, Oh, my God, and then it turns into this, like events. So from now on, I'm gonna go, okay, great. And then I'm gonna just sit there and stare at her.

Tom Manning 16:14

Yeah, to begin with, they just yeah, they're like, they're waiting for something. I'm just like, I just stay quiet, you know? And they're just like, Well, can I have something? What do you want? Well, can I have a chocolate bar? No, you can't have that. Could I have a packet of crisps? No, we can't have that either. Could I have an apple? Yes, you can have that.

Leighann Lovely 16:35

Right. Right. That, right? Because you Oh, my God, that's so brilliant. Geez, I just learned something.

Tom Manning 16:45

But it's crazy. You know, I had this lady ring up the other day, or she made an inquiry on my website, she works for somebody else. She was inquiring about some emotional awareness, training and stuff. And anyway, I end up having a call with her because we don't necessarily do one to one work like that at the minute. But I just got into this call with her. And she's just what she's describing is all this toxicity and confusion in these relationships in our workplace. And I sort of gave her some advice and guide her through how to approach that in a healthier way, how to get rid of some of that toxicity. Because, like, this just isn't commonly understood. You know, like, it's like, everything I teach is not, you know, it's not difficult. We're not like a common reaction we get when we do the accountability shows like guy so obvious when you say it. So and it is obvious, and it's not difficult. It's not always easy to practice, like to do to do it in the moment. It's not always easy, but it's not. It's not confusing. It's not difficult. It's very, like you said earlier on, it's like, this just seems so obvious when we say it. But it's not commonly understood or practice,

Leighann Lovely 17:49

Right? Right. Now, when you say it out loud, you go, Oh, God, this should just be but you're right. In the heat of the moment. When you're dealing in a situation, you know, you go back to a work situation, or you go back, and, and it's not that easy to remember, you know, not to get frustrated at somebody's, you know, behavior or somebody's, you know, an email that's being sent or, you know, again, and I go back to my personal situation at work, you know, I have a two employees or two partners that I work with on a regular basis. And they both sometimes send things to me differently. And I'm like, oh, man, I wish they could just send them to me the same. And then I have to remind myself, oh, did I tell them that I wanted it to be sent to me this way? Where I'm constantly just, I'm like, Oh, it's just easier for me to fix it. And eventually, then I'm, like, just getting irritating that I have to fix this every time.

Tom Manning 18:44

We deny them the opportunity to learn. Yeah, and we weren't clear in the first place. So yeah, the I like and I have a slide and accountability training. And so whenever you're disappointed, that's a flag. When you experience the disappointment as a flag, the first flag goes up is was I clear about what I was asking for? Did I provide an example? Have I trained them properly? Like, have we been clear about what good looks like clear about what the expectation is? That's the first place to look, but of course, when most people look first is them. Why aren't you doing this? How I want it? Right. That's the know, the first place to look is me. Was I clear about the expectation? Is the expectation clear?

Leighann Lovely 19:25

Yeah, yeah. And as a manager, it is. Absolutely. It's really easy to point a finger. And I think that's for a long time that has Well, I think it still is, it's still easier to blame somebody else than to look internally. And that's I think that's a knee jerk reaction that the majority of the population has.

Tom Manning 19:47

Yeah, and it's taking responsibility for that choice and taking responsibility for that reaction, taking responsibility for that request or whatever. So yeah, no, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 19:59

Why can we through when you start to really work with with companies, and you teach businesses, really walk me through how you start that work, and you know what you really start with?

Tom Manning 20:14

So basically, we start with the basics. So we've got like some basic accountability training, which is all about, like, all we spoken about today a lot about your clarity of expectations, understanding behavior, why do people get defensive? Why do people lie? What all this kind of other stuff? So we start with all the basics we talk about, you know, how do we have a more candid, honest conversation with somebody while helping them to feel safe, and they just aren't skills that are practiced or understood very well. And what we do is provide them just with this whole load of suite of tools, like, if this doesn't work, you can try that. If that doesn't work, you can try this, if you might need to combine a number of these different tools to get that result. And we really like and tried to make it super practical. There's like a whole load of different tools. I'll give you an example. One is like, I talk about deliberate ambiguity. So you might say, oh, like, I'm not I'm not saying this is what you intended to do. But this is what I've observed, you know, is that what you intended to do? So you're just giving them room to make an excuse and talk it off. And that's fine. And you might have one more conversation like that. And then you might introduce concerns. So you might say, oh, like, I'm a bit concerned, because we had those conversations. But you know, I'd still notice this thing. So what it did is it gave them to time to see the behavior, it gave you time to establish a pattern. And once you've established a pattern, it's much easier to start turning up the volume and addressing with it, addressing it, but so often we just ignore it or don't deal with the behavior. So basically, we you know, cover the basics, all that kind of stuff, breaking down silos, how you create more united teams, so teams aren't working in different directions and pulling each other in different directions and blaming each other and all that kind of other stuff. So yeah, so we sort of trained like that. Start with that, sorry, and then supplement that with coaching. Because when they go and do this, they're going to make mistakes, they're going to, you know, avoid conversations, they're going to have a situation like, Oh, they're doing this, what do I do? So you know, just coaching them through then using those tools and applying it. And then sometimes there is also some kind of consultancy, for example, a bit like the pathway approach, well, how do we develop a leadership framework? That's, that's clear enough, you know, that we're clear enough about what good looks like and read quite a lot of practice at doing that really well now. So there is a bit of an art to it. So there might be some consulting, there's definitely, you know, to begin with some training round some basic training what good looks like and then really coaching people through that, as they apply it. So that's yeah,

Leighann Lovely 22:48

I'd say, so do you work with all the manager level? Or does this kind of trickle down into? Like, good question.

Tom Manning 22:57

Yeah, very good question. Yeah. So the accountability stuff that I just described, that is predominantly targeted at people, managers, it doesn't have to be some organizations want. Like, they'll have some people that are around a management team that don't necessarily directly managed, but they want to get them involved in it. So that's fine, but generally is targeted at people, managers, or leaders. But then we also do stuff with like a wider population of the team, where we help really to sort of desensitize to feedback, we help them to sort of see themselves a bit easier, a bit better, help them to understand other people's behavior a bit better. Help them to see that choices and how I react to something or have choices around how I react, do I want to get defensive this thing? Or do I want to do make a different choice? Or if so? And yeah, like we're, we're, we're often introducing methods by which we might have a more candid and honest relationship. So we can sort of supplement that with this with these types of sessions. So we can kind of prepare people for that, really, and help them to understand that it's not a bad thing. These are good. This is a good thing. It's a good conversation. It's a productive thing. We don't need to be afraid of it. And we can talk through lots of different ways in which people can start to process that in a healthier way and got some great quotes. People often say, one quote, the sixth, I had somebody this lady said, she said, it made me realize that it's okay to be wrong. You know, and I'm like, Yes. Like, that's amazing, isn't it? You know, she'll have been protecting yourself and you know, I can't be seen as being wrong and like now, it's okay for me to be wrong. Yes. Is it is what we're requiring of you is to just learn from any mistake that happens. It's okay for you to be wrong, and that's fine.

Leighann Lovely 24:47

Yeah, many leaders are afraid that you know, if they are if they are being designated as the person that's supposed to be able to have all of the answers all the time, and all of a sudden, you know, somebody finds out Oh, my Got you weren't, you weren't rites, you know, it's that oh my gosh, well, did I just feel my team? Many people when they when they're told or when they're not told when they are when they finally realize that they're not required to be perfect all the time? And that answer asking for help is okay. And when your company tells you that you go, Oh, I can stop putting this much pressure on myself and be human, like everybody else. Yes. Yes, that's, that's a big deal. It's a huge deal.

Tom Manning 25:35

It is a huge deal. Like, like, the so many of us, we spend most of our lives protecting ourselves. We don't want to feel the rejection or feel isolated, rejected, unwanted, we don't want to feel that. So we protect ourselves against that feeling, by defending ourselves or earning approval, you know, like, like, I was, you know, I needed praise and validation from people, that was one of the big things I need to heal around myself was needing praise and validation needs to earn that praise and validation, versus just being okay with the fact that somebody may not like you, or agree with you, or you don't, you know, all that. So, yeah, so we're protecting ourselves a lot of the time. And it's a big thing to put that protection down to put the sword down and the shield down, and be a bit more vulnerable and open and human. You know, that's a big step for some people. So and we've got to take them on that journey a bit written.

Leighann Lovely 26:37

And well. And when you finally do it, also, you also realize that you are more capable of learning new things, when you finally stop trying to know everything, right? Yeah. 100%, or I should say, pretend that you know, everything, rather has Yeah, right. So I have to assume that when you work with or when the company brings you in, they say I want you to work with not just the leaders, but more of the group that kind of falls underneath them. I would assume that that is a much more success story than it's when it's just with the leaders. I'm sure that when it's just with the leaders, there's a great success behind that. But I would, I would venture to say that when you're working with the entire group, that you're actually seeing that accountability, go all the way down through out and that there is just such a major impact that that really, truly has.

Tom Manning 27:37

Yeah, I mean, that, of course, from my point of view is absolutely optimal. You know, and it's depends on where the client is that but I think there's probably three things I would say like, like, what's the gold plated best solution is that there's there's senior leadership support for the approach, that there's good training of the management team, and that there's this, this wider support for for the wider group to help, you know, process all of this in a healthy way, like you're saying, and really kind of impact that wider group and help to show them what it looks like to have a healthier relationship with yourself and a healthy relationship with others. And we don't always know what that looks like, you know, we just If all you've known is a version of an unhealthy relationship, which lots of us, you know, that was where I was at. That's all you know, that's all you know, you know, sometimes you have to somebody who really does need to spell it out to you. And, you know, I know, on my own journey, I had lots of lightbulb moments, lots of moments when I was like, oh my god, I remember this, I remember my coach saying to me something like, you know, look, feedback is just information. It's almost like, you know, zero or one on a computer screen, you know, it's just information. But what we do is we make it about us, and we you know, make it personal. It's just information, somebody's opinion, is just their opinion, and it's information. I don't need to personalize it, necessarily, I can learn from it. I'm not saying it always feels like that. But at least knowing that's what it is helps me to then process it in a healthy way. So yeah, like it can be truly transformational. If if if the group goes on that journey together, because you're learning how to create a healthy relationships together as a group, and there's something very bonding around that. We teach people how to tell the truth about themselves. Look, I'm afraid, you know, or I'm nervous about this thing and I don't feel like I've got all the answers and I feel like I should know the answers. I don't know the answers and I less space for me to tell my truth and be a bit more vulnerable. And all that kind of other stuff. There isn't as much space for me to exhibit unhelpful behaviors over and over again and not learn from it, right, so we will hold you, we will hold you accountable to that. But if you do that, if you're willing to learn, if you're willing to self reflect, and you're willing to learn, there's a lot of room here, you know, there's a lot of room here. So it's very humanizing, despite being, at times very difficult, because you're really some people do not want to let go of their behaviors, right. And so, so at one end, it's like, you know, your feet to the fire, but at the same time, it's a highly humanizing environment. So and some people just aren't used to that. So it's quite a Yeah, it's like, you've got these two, what seem to be opposing things. But actually, they're not. It's a responsible, healthy relationship. And that's really what we're teaching them.

Leighann Lovely 30:49

Right? Well, and I guess, you know, people who are incapable of letting go of those behaviors, they may, they may still just have that. I guess, that old school mentality of I just want to simply walk into a job punch my clock, I don't want to know anything else. I I want to then leave and walk away and go home. And and that's it.

Tom Manning 31:17

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Yeah, though, I mean, the most where we've had where, where we've had where you have people who are exempt, maybe they're being evasive, they're not really taking responsibility for their choices, or they're not, they're just not being diligent enough in their work or something like that, and you've tried to address it, or you've or I can think of a number of them. But when there's a pattern of behavior that that we need to correct, it doesn't need correcting, but they just don't want to let go of that. They don't want to let go, they want to come they like the evasiveness because it gives them room to be irresponsible, and make up the rules and do what they want and stuff like that. Right? So the most common responses are, they voluntarily decide, Oh, this isn't the place for me anymore. They asked to step down. The least common response, oh, sorry, all they they change their behavior, you you keep the fire going until they go, they work out, you know, either change this behavior, or I may as well not be here, which is when they end up making the other choice. So the least common response is that you end up in some kind of performance, formal performance management. But if you do, by the time you get there using this approach, where you've got loads of evidence, because you really put the work in to make a difference, and to talk to about their behavior, and you put all that work in, and you were in there committed to making this better. So by the time you get to that point, you know, if you need to do any take any formal action, you've got plenty of evidence around what that looks like, and the work we did. So yeah, that's why we found that often they end up making sure that you're going to lead them to this choice, we don't get to control their choices, right? We're going to lead them to a point where they make a decision, am I going to change my behavior? Or I'm, Is this the place for me that's often or is this the role? For me? That's the question, they often end up asking themselves.

Leighann Lovely 33:17

And that's interesting that there are people out there that would choose simply just not to change and, and move on to find another role where they can continue those behaviors. But there, I mean, I know that there are people out there that exist that that just decide to stay stuck. And I guess that's the only I mean, the only word that I can come up with, they just they stay stuck in that same mentality of I want to go in, I don't want to mentally or you know, I'm not interested in growing beyond where I'm at. And they they're stuck in that. There's nothing wrong with me. It's everybody else. And that cycle just continues.

Tom Manning 34:05

Yeah. And there's a fairly large portion of people just sat in workplaces all around the world doing just that. People may have had to have may have tried to have a conversation with them. They may have tried to address it, but then they gave up. And because it didn't work. And that's really because and this is sort of like one of the other I talked about, or the other common mistakes around accountabilities there's no consequence. I can sit here and behave like this. And nothing really happens. Like nobody really there's no consequence to that. And without consequences. There's no accountability. And sort of the business end of this is we're going to apply a consequence. Like we will try we will be in this we will be with you we will we're we're fully committed to helping you get to where you need to get to, but ultimately if we have to, we will apply consequences also At least those consequences will lead you to a point where it's some kind of formal action. And we teach you the use of informal consequences that help us lead nicely to fall ones if you need to. But always the intention is to try and stop you and let you know the intention of each step is to stop us to stop moving forward, we don't want to move to the next step. But we are prepared to if we have to, and we have a method and a way of doing it. So so in this approach, you can't sit there and just be stuck, like and just go on your I'll just stay here and just be stuck. Because that suits me, you know, like, not gonna work here anymore.

Leighann Lovely 35:41

Right, yeah. And, and I've, you know, I think even on my podcasts that I've talked with people and referenced the, you know, where companies, they know, they have a, an individual, and they make excuses for that individuals behavior, like, oh, that's just so and so Oh, that's just, you know, Karen, or got across, I use that name. Oh, that's just Todd, he just acts like that. And you're like, wait, but that's not okay. Like, just because this individual has a crappy attitude, but they do a really, really good job at like, maybe something that's niche at the organization. It's not okay for that company to continue to make excuses for a poor attitude, or poor behavior or poor, something. But there are companies that continue to do that.

Tom Manning 36:37

Yep. undermines trust in the relationship.

Leighann Lovely 36:40

And it it, it tells that individual, that it's okay to act like that. It is okay to treat people crappy, it is okay to continue this behavior. And I personally, I think that they're, they're damaging that individual even more, because you're, you're taking away the opportunity, you know, especially if this is, you know, such where you're taking away the ability for that person to ever grow, not only personally, but in their career. If you just allow them to continue to behave in a negative way, well, they're never going to they're not going to get promoted, they're not going to grow personally. So yeah, you're if if a company just allows that you're taking away, you're taking.

Tom Manning 37:31

We do a total disservice, it's a total disservice. And you're right, I can think of this middle manager, middle to senior manager in it in a client of mine, who I did some work with little while ago. And I think that one massive light bulb was moment for her was I said, Look, we don't help them by not having this conversation. It's unhelpful. We are being unhelpful. By not having this conversation. I think this was a massive lightbulb moment for her. She was like, Oh, my God, like you could literally see in her face, almost like, I've got these people in my team who are behaving in a way that is unproductive. And sometimes that's only an aspect of their performance. Not all of it, but there's an aspect of their performance, that that isn't particularly helpful. And I've sort of tolerated it. And you know, to some degree, and I suddenly realize, I'm being really unhelpful, by tolerating that, and not addressing it and not having a conversation. And I'm only promoting a fear based relationship. The minute I avoid this, because it's more comfortable for me, then I'm afraid, and I'm not, you know, this is a fear based relationship. This is not a trust based relationship. If, if, if we trust each other, if I trust you, then pretty much you can say what you like, you know, right. So we want to move to a trust based relationship, like, you know, that's what we're trying to develop, not just wallow in a fear based one.

Leighann Lovely 39:03

Right? And if you have a middle manager who's who is affecting other people under that person, you're leaving a that is a risk at your organization or risk for losing people under her or him. You're I mean, that's not that's not you don't just have one employee problem. You have an employee problem with every single other person that that person touches. So if there's a bad apple right there, every every single other apple that is touched by that rotting Apple is at risk to start rotting.

Tom Manning 39:48

Yeah, and it affects other teams as well. I remember when I was in corporate, you know, we would have like another team and we're relying on this team and they're underperforming or then all those patterns of unhelpful behavior. I remember that one guy sticks in my head. He just wouldn't respond to staff he would he would respond really late, it was like it was so unhelpful. And this was something was really important needs to get fixed. And as the impacts, you know, the impact is huge. And, and imagine that when you when you roll up around a corporation when you've got 30, odd 40, odd 100,000 People 200,000 or whatever, you know, you you the compound impact of all of those Mr. conversations, and all of that poor accountability, and all of those behaviors that go and under duress, and all of a new compound that it massive.

Leighann Lovely 40:38

Right and here's the way like, okay, so you know, I have a team, I'm a team of three, like, right now I've got me I've gotten then I've got two other people, and we're expanding, we're going and we're fairly new, you know, we've came together, we've been together, not none an extremely long time. But when one of us goes on vacation, I just think of it this way, when one of us goes on vacation, it's horrific. It's like, oh, my gosh, I have to, you know, help manage this other person. So let's just imagine if you've got, you know, let's say we have a team of 10. And one person is just always not doing their job. Oh, my God. Like, that just wouldn't work. It just, it wouldn't work. Now, if you've got multiple teams relying on all of those other teams, and you've got one person who's just constantly never not doing their job. And then you think of what about a production floor? If you got somebody who's, you know, always behind on something you that that takes a mass? We're not just talking about a little that's a mass impact on a company. One. And I, I'm surprised that more companies don't get it.

Tom Manning 41:54

Like, yeah, and I think I mean, like, I do this taster session and what I asked them, first of all, I say, what is poor accountability look like? Can they say, oh, you know, miss deadlines, and all this kind of impacts of the business, and it impacts our ability to get stuff done if you got her up. Next slide. I say, do you expect your manager needs to hold their teams accountable? Yes, or no? And you vote? So of course, everybody votes? Yes. Like nobody says no to the question. Do expect your Haji. And then I say, Well, do you recognize any of these, you know, managing leaders avoid difficult conversation, particularly about behavior, monitoring managers and leaders allow people to coast? Well, yes, we recognize a lot of the symptoms. So it's like, do teach them naturally. Have you ever taught them how to do this properly? Not really. So we expect them to hold them accountable has a massive impact, poor, poor, poor, or Catholic has massive impacts for business? We expect them to do it, we don't train them how we're not we're unclear on what good looks like, like, all these skills are missing.

Leighann Lovely 42:52

And, you know, know, thestatistics on the amount of people. And I can't remember right now, but the amount of people who are who move into management roles, and that actually have management training, once they move into management role. The statistics on that are laughable. Yeah, people get promoted into manager roles with zero management training, zero, they get the, the, you know, like, this is how you do your job. This is the, you know, like day to day, what you're responsible for, if you need to run a budget, or you if you're running a department, here's your p&l, here's your this, but when it actually comes to oh, now you have three direct reports, or now you have five direct reports. Nobody actually sits down with them and says, Okay, so let's actually do the manager training. Let's actually talk about how you lead people that never actually takes place. They're just like, Okay, here's your new responsibilities. Yeah, nobody really says, Okay, so we're gonna go to this leadership training, you're gonna learn what it takes to be a healthy strong leader and manager of people. Like the statistics on that are like, only, I think it's like only like 15 or 20% of managers or leaders get some type of manager training. I mean, that's, that is laughable. It should it should be 100%

Tom Manning 44:25

Yeah, and the ridiculous thing is the crazy thing is that, like, some of the stuff that we teach is so easy to teach, like, you know, said earlier like, it's like, people come in here and say, Oh, like this is so obvious when you say no, no, it's our that deliberate ambiguity thing. I've got this like, like a micro learning course. It's like literally, it's like, you know, 10 swipes on your phone, you know, and his little video and it's like, you know, you spent 10 minutes on this, this is going to chat totally change, how your ability to address behavior where you need to in a productive and healthy way it's going to Transform your ability to do that, like in intense swipes of your phone, you know, this is like, it's not difficult to teach. It's just not being taught. Right. Yeah. So it's a bit of a Yeah, criminal sort of thing. But you know, it is what it is. And it gives me work.

Leighann Lovely 45:17

So that's awesome. I love it. I love it. And it's, it's what I most love about this is that it came from a personal development of your of your of you, you know, there was a time in your life where you went through a personal development and kind of went wow, this is this is something that other people could learn from. And I love that that's where the passion for what you do, I can clearly tell that you have passion for this. And that's what makes you I'm assuming so successful at it because you yourself, at one time went down the same journey that went down the same, you know, learning about this? Yeah, I'm trying to and I think at one point, we all kind of kind of step back and do that. We're like, again, looking in a mirror going oh, my gosh. But yeah, if you would, are open to sharing a little bit more about your, your personal journey. And again, I'm not asking, you know, details, but what whatever you're willing to share about that?

Tom Manning 46:32

Yeah, I have something. I have something I could say on that. I think one thing I was sort of reflecting on as you're saying that is a lot of like I some of the stuff we teach some of these tools, for me, was born out of an intensely difficult period in my life, like intensely that navigating some intensely difficult relationship issues that that were fairly horrendous, you know, and I had to learn how do I, how do I deal with this in a healthier way, and get a healthy result? And I made lots of mistakes in that process, by the way, right. But, but yeah, so I think that's where like my heart's in it. Because there's, there's my own sort of reluctant to say trauma, because that makes it sound that you know, that there's, there's, there's a lived experience here, right? That is meaningful and impactful that had a personal experience. So when I'm sharing this stuff, I know, I know that you do this, this will change your relationships, because it changed mine. This will change how you experience your life and your relationships. And it will reduce conflict and all this kind of stuff and help you to navigate this in a healthier way. I know that because it did it for me. So it's, you know, it's a lived experience. And I was lucky enough to have somebody who could navigate helped me navigate that at a time. And I remember him saying to me, he said this, at the start, he said to me, You're in so much fear, I could cut it with a knife. Right. So you know, like, I had to deal with this fear and this insecurity and this old pain. And then I had to go and deal with my relationships. And so yeah, so everything we put together, is born out of those experiences. And really, you know, when I when I really, in the early days, even before the pathway thing, it was like, Oh, how do I take this thing I'm talking about? How do I have healthier, emotionally healthier children? How do I have an emotionally healthy relationship? How do I how do I translate that into a workplace environment took me a long time to I just try I took years to translate the language I literally had to translate all this language I learned. And so I you know, now it's just rolls off. Oh, yeah. Well, it's accountability training. You know, it did I have to figure all that out. And along the way, or how we translate all its languaging so that it's meaningful, productive, useful. pragma, pragmatic, you know, like, we teach this, if you came along, you will be like, you think that this will always been like this? Yeah. So yeah, so I don't know. Yeah, that's, that's what I have to say.

Leighann Lovely 49:25

Well that's beautiful. That's absolutely beautiful. So we're coming to time, and I want to ask the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Tom Manning 49:40

So, I found this really hard this question, because I generally would struggle to know how to answer it, I think. I think the best answer I would say would be like relax, it will be okay. I think often I've been in a hurry to fix something to get something addressed and all that and and find the learning process difficult, you know, like, I want the learning process to just speed up. So I can get out this thing, you know, but But it's in the learning process. That was where the magic was. And I look back and I kind of think, you know, if I hadn't have gone through it, if I could whine back and say, Oh, no, don't go down there, go down here, well, then I'd missed the learning, you know, so and I wouldn't be here if I hadn't gone down there anyway. So I can't tell him not to do that. So I think it was more like, well, the best wisdom I can perhaps give him would be relaxed, it will all be okay.

Leighann Lovely 50:46

That's awesome. That's awesome. So if somebody wanted to reach out to learn more about you and learn more about pathway Academy, how would they go about doing that?

Tom Manning 50:56

So you can go on our website at the pathway Academy dot CO dot UK, we probably will come up with a.com site at some point, but right now, it's code at UK. I'm on LinkedIn, so easy to find Tom Manning on LinkedIn pathway Academy. You can email me Tom at Tom manning.co not.com or.co. UK dot CEO, email me. So yeah, just multiple ways you can get in touch login inquiry on the site, email me get in touch on LinkedIn, posting a lot all the time. So feel free to connect or whatever.

Leighann Lovely 51:31

So yeah, awesome. And that will also be in the show notes. So if anybody wants to reach out they can find that in the show notes as well. But Tom, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It's been an awesome conversation.

Tom Manning 51:41

It has Thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed it.

Leighann Lovely 51:45

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Tom Contact Information –

E-mail - tom@tommanning.co

Website – thepathwayacademy.co.uk

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/tommanning0

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, behavior, relationship, conversation, accountability, unhelpful, bit, manager, pathway, healthy, responsibility, teach, training, expectations, leaders, company, easy, clear, approach, work

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Anne Jacoby is an amazing woman who started her career in the arts as a professional singer, actor, and dancer. As many of us know and have experienced, she reevaluated her life and decided to take a new path. In early 2000 she went into the business world, eventually finding her way back to her creative roots. She founded her own business that focuses on just that. This was an amazing conversation, with a talented person.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:04

Today is going to be a great conversation with Anne Jacoby. She is on a mission to cultivate creativity at work as the founder and CEO of The Spring Street Solutions, a workplace culture consultancy, she partners with leading organizations to build more connected, innovative and inclusive cultures, and was previously the head of learning development and culture at a global consulting firm and has over 15 years of operational experience building and leading teams. She has her MBA from NYU Stern School of Business, and was a professional singer, actor and dancer prior to starting her corporate life. I'm very excited to have this great conversation with a very brilliant woman. And thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Anne Jacoby 01:57

Thank you for having me, Leighann. This is gonna be fun.

Leighann Lovely 01:59

Yes. So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Anne Jacoby 02:03

Sure. Well, I like to say that I am on a mission to cultivate creativity at work, something I'm very passionate about. I have an unconventional background. So I started my career as a professional singer, actor, dancer. And then I made a pivot to business, got my MBA and scaled a company from seven people to 1000s around the globe and kind of rode that rocketship for a while, really on the business side and then landed on the people side, because I was so passionate about seeing people develop and tap into their learning and their potential. So that's really what I've been focused on for the past five years or so.

Leighann Lovely 02:40

Okay, so let's back up you started with, say that in acting, and how did how do you start in that? And then ended up where you are?

Anne Jacoby 02:53

You know, it's a great question. And I'm sure we'll talk a lot about how creativity influences the work that I do now. But, you know, I was always passionate about storytelling and performing and I love to sing. So I was doing it, you know, ever since I was very small, just a little kid and thought I would make a career out of it. I really thought this is it, you know, I'm going to be a performer for my whole life. And found myself in New York in the early 2000s. And like many who were there during 911, I think reevaluated my my choices, and where I wanted my life to go and just thought, Gosh, I really want something more stable. And for me, it shows how naive I was at the time. But I thought that meant business and joining a startup, which we all know that startups are not very stable, but at the time that felt like a stable choice between performing or or being in business.

Leighann Lovely 03:50

Wow. Being in New York during that time. Rough first of all, but to pivot from Wow, okay, so it's take, and I and don't get me wrong in any career that you have, there's always some type of business aspect of that, right? You have to market yourself in one way or another in order to continue to be able to do what you love to do. I'm assuming that you had to go out there and, and market yourself to get jobs, right.

Anne Jacoby 04:20

Yes, and no, I'm a big believer in saying yes, as opportunities present themselves and the way that I ultimately found my job at this startup, I was waiting tables and had a really good conversation with someone who happened to be a recruiter, and she thought I just gotta get you out of this restaurant. You gotta be doing something better than this. And I was you know, babysitting and waiting tables and doing shows and performing you know, I had a million different jobs as you do in New York City in your early 20s. And and so I just said yes, and I gave it a shot and I found myself at the Start up and kind of the rest is history, you know, just really found that building a business is ultimately extremely creative. So all of that work that I had been doing to cultivate storytelling to cultivate connecting with an audience, or collaborating with other actors or performers on stage, all of those skills apply in the business world. So it was really just about making that leap and transferring a lot of those capabilities into a different environment.

Leighann Lovely 05:29

Right. Well, awesome. Okay, so you are the founder and CEO of Spring Street as well as advisors to dangerous ventures and twine. Is that right? Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. So you got to tell me, first Spring Street, but advisors to dangerous venture? That's very interesting. So you got to tell me tell me a little bit about, you know, what each you know, each different, I guess, discipline is for, you know, as an advisor, and also as a founder and CEO.

Anne Jacoby 06:02

Yeah, well, you know, most of what I do is in the service of helping companies to grow, to build cultures that they're really proud of, to achieve their business objectives in any way, shape, or form. So whether that's me being in an advisory role helping a company to scale, dangerous Ventures is an early stage venture firm. And their principle is really around cultivating entrepreneurs from underrepresented backgrounds. So, you know, we have a whole bunch of people who could be successful entrepreneurs, if they have the right support and skills and infrastructure to guide them through that process. So I'm really passionate about that kind of work. But my my clients was Spring Street really range from early stage hypergrowth organizations that are really starting to put shape to their organizational culture, all the way to Fortune 100 organizations that are very focused on programmatically transforming their cultures to be more innovative or connected or inclusive. Yeah. So

Leighann Lovely 07:11

obviously, there's, there's going to be one and maybe there's not, I shouldn't say, obviously, let's let's back up. So working with a fortune 100 company versus a small, very small company, he's got to have a different approach, I'm assuming. So how do you start when you you know, you meet a client, and they said, we really want to focus on the culture at this company, we really want to figure out, you know, how to do this, you know, how do you go in and start with within an organization?

Anne Jacoby 07:45

Yeah, I'll give a couple examples. So for the earlier stage companies, a lot of what we do is think about, okay, what are our values? What do we want to celebrate? What behaviors do we really want to bring out in our people and reinforce positively. So being really crisp and clear about what those organizational values are, and defining how we're going to bring them to life, throughout the employee lifecycle is a lot of the work that I do around building that culture, really building those behavioral norms. So that people are really clear, hey, I'm joining this company, this is what I can expect. And there are lots of ways to reinforce that. On the other end of the spectrum, companies that have more established cultures can feel like huh, there are pockets where we we know that we need to change. Maybe we want to build more inclusive practices across the organization, how are we going to do that. And so that really takes a different approach that might be you know, developing a specific program and might be designing a particular workshop. So there are different ways to address an organization of that stage. Probably those values have been defined, but maybe we need work refining how we're going to reinforce the right kinds of behaviors.

Leighann Lovely 09:03

Interesting. Do you find one more difficult than the other?

Anne Jacoby 09:09

Both the rewarding it's a it's a very different approach, I'd say with each of my clients, because every company is at a different stage. And ideally, they have unique cultures that they really want to feel differentiated to the employee. And so I try to pride myself on, on offering bespoke solutions that are extremely tailored to that particular organization.

Leighann Lovely 09:35

Right. So here's the question that I always you know, it's one thing to go when you talk to the upper management, you talk to, you know, owners or CEOs or HR people, and somebody who's wants to be the driver of that change, right? And they have all of these great ideas of here's what we want, here's what we want to do. Here's the things that we want to lay out. But how do you Well, how do you teach? Or maybe it's not teaching? How do you get employee buy in? Or how do you teach them to get employee buy in?

Anne Jacoby 10:10

Hmm. Yeah, that's a wonderful question. And so on point, I think a lot of it is about good listening, and finding multiple ways to listen. And what I mean by that is, you mentioned the word buy in, buy and can be achieved by understanding what really matters to certain employee populations. And that can be achieved in listening surveys can be achieved in listening tours, where you have, you know, small groups of people coming together to share their thoughts. It might be achieved in anonymous forums, you know, organizations like like all voices aware, people can, you know, share or, you know, offer their concerns in a channel where it's not going to be attributed to them. So I think having a multi pronged approach is really important. But that that key aspect of listening can't be stated strongly enough. You know, to your point, LeAnn, I think leaders get really energized and excited about a particular initiative. But without really hearing directly from the employees, it's, it's hard to create that stickiness.

Leighann Lovely 11:26

Right, it's every time I go to like a, you know, a retreat, or, you know, some seminar or something, and I hear about all these great ideas, and I walk into that room going, Okay, I'm going to implement this. And then a week later, I've forgotten that feeling that I had when I was there. And I haven't implemented anything and nothing changes. And I'm like, wait a second, why did I go there, if I'm not going to make any changes, and I and I, and I talked to individuals like you, the, the, the ones that go in and meet with the people who want to make those changes who want to make it happen. And I feel like right now, in the world that we're living in, so many companies know that it's necessary, know that in order to, you know, be what they need to be. They are trying to make these changes, but often, they fall short, when Yeah, when holding themselves accountable, or actually making these changes happen. Long term.

Anne Jacoby 12:36

Mm hmm. Yeah. And it makes me think of a really effective coach, where, yes, you could probably share a lot of wisdom and, you know, ideas, but ultimately, a really great coach allows the coachee to discover their own solutions. And that's what really helps move things forward. I think the same applies in this situation where, you know, the leader may have a ton of great ideas, but unless they're really born from the grassroots efforts, that the folks who can really carry the culture forward, you lose that connective tissue, you lose that energy that you were talking about, Leanne? Yes, I'm gonna go do this. Yeah, need to harness that from the very people who have the capacity to, to carry it forward and to implement it. So you

Leighann Lovely 13:29

go in and you create, do you create a, like, a plan, you create a step by step? Or do you how do you how do you lay this out for the company?

Anne Jacoby 13:41

Yeah, so again, it takes a lot of different shapes, right, but it, start with an assessment where we're really getting to know, okay, where are the pockets of opportunities to change and evolve our culture? Where are those, let's identify them, let's rank order them and prioritize them. And that's more of a strategic process. You know, there's those stakeholder interviews that I was talking about, and like, gathering the data, and then ultimately, deciding, okay, we're gonna pick these three things to focus on this is what's achievable, and let's go do that. So that might be one one phase of the project. Another might be putting together workshops around skill development. So you know, I talked a lot about my passion for creativity at work, but there are lots of different I'll call them power skills that organizations today are really focused on around building resilience, adaptability, you know, change readiness. Those are skills that really do take practice. And so I often put together really fun interactive experiences where people can try out the skills in a safe space before they have to do that in the real world, so to speak. So a lot of it is program design and and developing skills,

Leighann Lovely 14:59

Excellent and you know what I love that you said, you put together achievable and achievable. And often we, again, you know, I have and I only can, you know, look at myself of, you know, what I'm, I always have, you know, this idea of like, Oh, I'm going to accomplish this, I'm gonna go walk two miles and then you know, after a half a mile, I'm like, oh, oh my god, I really need to sit down and I'm like, maybe I should make my my goals achievable. And I think that many of us, you know, it's just just like the, you know, my eyes are bigger than my stomach kind of mentality of what's not bite off more than we can chew kind of thing. So I like that. You know, you have the first thing you do is achievable goals. Yeah, that's awesome. So I want to move to something else that you know, that you're you're doing right now you are not only, you know, obviously the founder, CEO, you, you get your hands dirty. You're doing all of this work. But you are also keynote, Keynote spokes, my goodness gracious. A key note, speaker, and you are also busy writing a book? Let me I know, I gotta know what what is? What is the book? What are we writing about it? Can I ask that? Or is that there?

Anne Jacoby 16:17

It's not top secret? No. You will be my accountability partner, Leanne. Yes, the book is in development. It is about creativity at work, but specifically around what sparks our individual creativity. So how do we personally Ignite and reinforce our own individual our own creativity? It's also focused on creative leadership skills. So how do we bring creativity out in others? And then finally, how do we address it organizationally? So how do we build that culture of creativity? So that ideally, our company can innovate? And most companies that I serve, at least want to innovate in some way?

Leighann Lovely 16:55

That's awesome. I can't wait. So do you have? Do you have you set a deadline for yourself as to when you're hoping to publish? Or?

Anne Jacoby 17:05

Yeah, my hope is 2023. So I will, I'll circle back to you when the book is about to be released. Part two conversation.

Leighann Lovely 17:15

Perfect. I want to know, I want to know, so now tell me a little bit more about your your speaking, you know, do you? Is this something that you do at certain times, or you you know, readily looking for speaking engagements, tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah,

Anne Jacoby 17:33

I've done a fair amount within corporations. And then also in the academic setting, so either executive MBAs or entrepreneurial programs, I speak a lot to help students understand this skill of creativity and, and what that means, especially when you're building a business, things like adaptability, or being open to perspective taking or, you know, there's so many things that accompany creativity. And it really is like any other kind of skill or muscle to develop, it's something that can be practiced, I think, you know, a lot of times you think of Elizabeth Gilbert and big magic, and, you know, this elusive creativity as if you're gonna get struck by lightning, yeah, some creative today. But really, it's like anything else, where if you dedicate the time to it, at you set certain conditions, certain parameters, certain creative constraints, you really can help train your brain to enter that space of creativity. So that's a lot of what I try to coach, both my clients and then also students to discover.

Leighann Lovely 18:38

And that's, it's so true, you have to work that muscle, you know, I remember in high school, I look back, perfect example, I look back to my drawings in high school, I love to draw, I love to do artwork, or sitting in a room where I have, you know, some artwork, drawings, you know, in the background, my podcast slash art room with my daughter, which we talked about just a second ago. And I look at the drawings that I did when I was in high school, because I was in advanced art classes, I loved all of that stuff. And they are so much better from when I was in high school than they are now. Because in high school, I was constantly in art class, I was learning new things. I was practicing constantly working that muscle, right? Working that creative side. And now, as an adult, I don't have time to just sit down and draw. I don't have time to just sit down and can I still do it? Yes. If I look at a picture, I can usually, you know, replicate it. You know, it's one of those buts. If you apply that to anything that you do, if you apply that to creativity in in your work, dealing with people coming up with creative solutions on how to, you know, manage people, all of that kind of stuff. If you don't do it every single day. Well, you're going to struggle on how How to do it right. Yeah, I can that completely resonates with me when you said that but you don't, I guess the normal person unless you remind them of that, won't think of that as something that you have to

Anne Jacoby 20:14

practice. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Leighann Lovely 20:18

I think a lot of people think of it as well, you either have it or you don't.

Anne Jacoby 20:22

Yes. And I love that you said that, because there is that, you know, just misunderstanding I think about creativity in general, or they leap to oh, gosh, I'm just not a talented artist, or I can't sing or, you know, actually, creative thinking is something we're all capable of doing. And you and I are both moms, you know, we see, you know, in our children, how innately creative they are. And they're making new connections and putting together, you know, new inputs constantly. That's how they learn. That's how they make sense of the world. And I think we need to also go back to those fundamentals of gosh, you know, let me see things in a different light and, and look at things from a new angle. And that's creative thinking

Leighann Lovely 21:08

Absolutely helps. And you say, you're a mom, too. There's times where my daughter and I will sit down, and we do these, we just dumped paint on a canvas and then slow it, you know, it doesn't mix, but like, and I realized that she actually just, she'll pick out the colors she likes, not the colors, she thinks that will look good together. And me, I am a logic thinker. I think, Oh, these colors will look good together. But then mind turns out looking just really block. Because they're just they're too much like, right? It just turns out looking very much like, oh, very, hers turns out looking like crazy. Cool, because they're not colors that necessarily go together. Yeah, it just, it's really bold and really out there. And you're just like, wow, that. And I'm like, how is she better? But she's better at it because she chooses not based on what she thinks. You know, she should it's based on purely what I like, right this second? Versus and that, I think that really is more becomes more creative when you're dealing with certain things. Yeah, and that, again, I'm trying to get to a point. But, you know, children, children, I think naturally, because they're still learning. They do have that. And I think as adults, we try to analyze and create logic and everything. And that takes away some of the creativity that we have.

Anne Jacoby 22:51

And also your daughter is fearless, right? She's not, she doesn't yet have the judgment, the self judgment that we all have. And think about how what you just shared Lian applies to the business world know that? Let's take a risk. Let's try something new. Because we like it, you know, because we we believe in it. I mean, how often do we, you know, we judge ourselves and we try to you know overanalyze things where you just try and experiment and yes, you need to gather the data and see how the customers react. Absolutely. But I think it's that that bold quality that you just described, that is often missing in the workplace, because we put so much pressure around, oh, this, we have to get this perfect. And this has to be just right. And it has to go together. Exactly what you said.

Leighann Lovely 23:37

Right, exactly. We overanalyze, you know, we also grow into being more risk adverse, because of experience, whereas, and it's hard to let go of that. But when you allow the creative side to come out, and you will, and you realize that, hey, if I make a mistake, and I fall, it's not the end of the world. And I think that a lot of adults are like, Well, no, but I don't want anybody to see right. I don't want anybody to, to notice that I might make a mistake.

Anne Jacoby 24:10

But yeah, yeah. And what you just said right there, that is a creativity culture is the safety to know that if you do fail, okay, you learn from it, you move on, but that needs to be supported, kind of top down. Otherwise, maybe it is the end of the world if you make a mistake if you're in the wrong culture. So I think really fairpoint and hopefully speaks to the kind of work that I do.

Leighann Lovely 24:34

That's awesome. Yeah. Okay, so now here here, here's the hard question, right? What if you're working with a bunch of accountants? No, and I asked my best friend as an accountant and she's she she analyzes absolutely everything. And I'm just like, cute. Sometimes your wound so tight, it's, you need the creative side to come out. A little bit. And I remember she asked me, When did she come over and we can just paint. And I remembered her sitting there. And she's painting and she's like, I just can you just paint it for me? And I'm like, no, like, she's so. Oh, okay, tangent. Like it.

Anne Jacoby 25:18

I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because I do work with a lot of accountants. And, you know, and lawyers in particular, I mean, folks who may not self fighting with GAAP, but you might be thinking how this workflow happens, or, you know, are there better ways of approaching this process? And I think that takes the creative thinking that that I aim to inspire and strengthen people.

Leighann Lovely 25:43

And I see, and you just threw something in there that I didn't think about, because it's not just about pretty rainbows and paints. And it's creativity comes into so many different things. Yeah. And I was just having a meeting today with my, my, my two partners. Again, my, you know, I'm in staffing my two recruiters and we were talking about workflow, and I'm like, Okay, how can we be creative to make sure that this workflow is working properly, because it's not right now. So just sitting down and being able to come up with a creative idea on how to make it easier. And so I guess, creativity comes into pretty much everything we do, if you and you would think that it would be, it would be much more fun if we tried to take the logic side of it, and be like, let's be creative about this, instead of logical, my brain, my brain will hurt less, right?

Anne Jacoby 26:41

And maybe it'll be more fun. Who knows? It'll be a good byproduct.

Leighann Lovely 26:47

So I want to go back to the beginning. Now. You okay, so. And you kind of talked a little bit about how you, you know, you decided that you needed to change, you know, you experienced obviously, with, with the world, a traumatic event, and you decided that, you know, at that point you wanted to change, you thought that business going into more of the business side. So, what did that look like? I mean, for you, personally, when you went from being a actor, singer, actress, singer, all of that, what did I mean? That had to have been a completely different kind of lifestyle? I would assume.

Anne Jacoby 27:31

Yeah, it certainly was a transition. And I'm glad you mentioned traumatic event, because I feel like we've all just gone through a traumatic event, you know, with the pandemic, and, you know, all the things that folks are challenged by today in today's world, you know, this skill of reinvention, and you see it with the great resignation, or the Great, the great reinvention, I know, there are lots of terms being floated around, but people are wanting different things from their work experience. And so I want to just note that, you know, in in 2001, and today, similar things are going on in terms of, gosh, what else can I do with my life? Or what should I be doing with my life, these are catalysts, I think, to have these thoughtful moments. But for me personally, it was a lot of embracing, being out of my comfort zone. And that is a skill as, as a trained actor, that you're kind of trained to seek out, right, you're trained to be in, in these uncomfortable situations where you're in front of hundreds, if not 1000s of people, and you kind of need to, to bring bring your A game, you know, so that kind of getting out of your comfort zone. Lots of learning lots of listening, learn. It's almost like learning a new language. And especially since I was thrown into an industry that was highly technical in the legal field, it was speaking the legal language as well working with a lot of lawyers and attorneys. So yeah, it was, it was an incredible experience. And I call it highly creative, because we were given that freedom to experiment to, to try new things and see what works. We were creating this new category of firm. And it was, it was disruptive. There was a lot of reinvention happening in the legal industry at the time. And so that kind of primed the pump for me to then oh, gosh, if I had such an incredible experience building this, I want to help other organizations go through this change as well and help them get good at it.

Leighann Lovely 29:42

That's amazing. Yeah, it was fun. Right? Yeah. Wow. So So from there you, you know, you've now been, you know, running your own business. You've now experienced a nother traumatic And then in with the pandemic. Yeah, I would assume that because of that business has shifted dramatically for, especially for what you do. Companies are screaming, you know, hey, help me while the smart ones? Yeah, I should say, because in today's environment, it's an absolute necessity in order to retain people that you need to start offering a happy, healthy environment. Yeah, we see it across the board of individuals I being in you know, staffing, I, you know, help people find jobs. And the number one thing that, you know, individuals talk about now is while I want to, I'm looking for a new job, because the culture of the company that I'm in is one that is unhealthy, or it's volatile, or it's just not, you know, conducive to family life or work life balance. Yeah. So, how has that shifted for you over the last two? Three? Geez, is it almost been three years?

Anne Jacoby 31:20

I know, time flies when you're having fun?

Leighann Lovely 31:25

Or when you're drinking heavily because of that? No, sorry.

Anne Jacoby 31:31

I'm so I'm so appreciative of the question. When I launched Spring Street, I had imagined I would be doing in person workshops, and that it would all be, let's get in a room. Let's figure this out. Let's get creative. Here are some creative exercises to start to develop these skills, obviously, that was thrown out the window. So on day one, I had to reinvent the business model. And actually, I think, because all the points that you just mentioned Lian, people are craving for support around culture initiatives, and how to think about, are we remote? First? Are we hybrid? Are we in office? What does that look like? What's our employee value proposition? What are the cultural tenants of our organization? And how do we broadcast those for new employees? For current employees? What is this employee experience like? And so, yes, I think we have dialed up the importance of this kind of across the workforce. And so you know, whether it's me or someone else, having a partner to help objectively assess, this is the stuff that you're doing really well. And this is the stuff where we have room to grow. Let me help you with that. Gosh, people are craving it. So it's been a very busy time.

Leighann Lovely 32:48

And are you work? Do you work remotely with organizations, then?

Anne Jacoby 32:53

Primarily, I do. A lot of my company's clients are global. And so their team members are distributed. They don't necessarily work in office, or if they do, it's a hybrid culture. I am starting to see a lot more calls for in person retreats, and, you know, let's get together in a room, which I think is a great thing. So don't get me wrong, I love the chemistry and the connections that are formed when you get everyone in a room. But I also have clients with whom I work extremely closely, and I've never met them in person. You know, it's, it's really incredible, especially with video conferencing, what you can achieve in a distributed way.

Leighann Lovely 33:36

Right? Even in my business, I mean, there's, I've been working with some of my clients for and I've never met them in person, I've seen them 100 times on a teams or a Zoom meeting, and I'm just like, we should do lunch sometime. I mean, not like at separate desks, like at an actual restaurants.

Anne Jacoby 33:57

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But the

Leighann Lovely 34:00

virtual world has definitely shifted, shifted the way that we do business, and the ability to do business on a global level for a lot of individuals. But that need and that desire to be together is still still definitely is exists and wins out. When it comes to truly understanding of others. And when I'm at let me kind of back up and say ultimately, when it comes to creating a company's that true culture, and I'm not I'm not against remote working, I'm not against you know, hybrid, remote, hybrid, hybrid working. But in order for those individuals to actually get to know each other and spend time together. There needs to be at some point or another a gather range of those employees. Right?

Anne Jacoby 35:03

Yeah, I think it helps for sure. I think there can be an over, maybe not over, let me rephrase. I think sometimes people jump to the conclusion that if their culture is suffering, it must be because we're not all together. And my belief is, you can have a highly engaged committed, great chemistry working team completely distributed. I think that is possible. It takes different kinds of effort, it takes a consciousness and an awareness and intentionality to build that kind of culture. And I also think there's a belief that, oh, if we just bring everything everyone back, everyone's going to be engaged. And I don't think that's true, either. You know, I think disengagement can happen, wherever you are. So you want to be focused on the engagement levels.

Leighann Lovely 36:01

And I write I completely agree with that. If I mean, I have one employee that's 100% remote, she's out of California. And she is the one of the most engaged employees. I mean, I talk to her constantly, all day long on on via teams. I mean, because of the technology that exists, you can literally feel like you're sitting next to somebody with being able to just pull them up on your screen and be like, Hey, can you do this for me? Oh, did you need anything for me? Hey, Ken, I mean, it's, it's pretty, it's the technology is, is beautiful. But it is also awesome to be able to have those, you know, occasional get togethers, and you know, how you doing kind of situations?

Anne Jacoby 36:50

So nothing like sharing a meal with someone. I totally agree. Yeah, it's, there's a different level of bonding. And that's a chemical thing. You know, that's as humans that's, I think there is something special that happens when we're we're in, in good company, just, it's different. It's a different experience, it will be interesting to track and I'm no expert on this. But with virtual reality becoming more prevalent, it'll be interesting to see what's possible in terms of almost replicating that kind of feeling. And that experience, as the technology continues to advance.

Leighann Lovely 37:25

It's amazing, but it's also really scary. Have you ever worn those virtual reality goggles? Yeah. I mean, there's been times where I've worn them and I'm like, I think my husband got a he got a pair of those for for Christmas from work or something. And he brought him home. And the only thing that was like pre loaded on them was like some horror scenes or something. And I'm like, Okay, I'll watch it. It was like falling off a cliff. And I think I fell down. I'm like, Oh, my God, like, these things are insane. Like, it's, they're scary. And but I can understand wearing those and feeling like you're sitting at a conference table with all your co workers. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's, it's awesome. But it's gonna create the same time. It's, the technology is is is amazing. It's amazing when it works. But just imagine how frustrating it is when you're like, Oh, I gotta go to a meeting. You put your goggles on, you're like, Oh, they're not working. Okay, guys. 20 minutes later, you're like, Okay, we finally got it. We only have five minutes for the meeting. Okay, anyway. All right. So the question of the season, I'm gonna move to this. I think you had a preview of that. So but I'm going to ask, so if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Anne Jacoby 38:57

Such a good question. I would give myself lots of advice.

Leighann Lovely 39:03

Oh, me, too. This is why I never answer my own question.

Anne Jacoby 39:09

Truthfully, though, I can't pinpoint one particular moment in time. So I guess it's a little bit of a cheat. But I would say to myself, be open to possibilities. Because a lot of times, I was wired a certain way where I would get laser focused on a goal or particular outcome and stay really fixed to that outcome. So much so that I probably missed some other good stuff happening on the side. And I think, I hope that I can translate this to my kids as they grow and are met with challenges and I think challenges make us who we are. I think challenges are great. Those are learning opportunities, but I would coach myself to be more open to different outcomes and just see the good in them?

Leighann Lovely 40:01

Yeah, I am. So it's funny. I'm one of those people, my husband drives him crazy, you know, problem. And then there's me like immediate like Solve, Solve, Solve, Solve, Solve and he's just like, you don't have to do that right the second and I'm like, No, I have to I have to and I've gotten better at it. Yeah, I am one of those, you know, I'm like a, I'm like a cat with a mouse. I can't, I can't leave it alone until the thing stops running. Right? It's hyper focused. And I think I've, the older I've gotten, the more relaxed I've gotten with, but there's definitely something you know, add to the list of advice I would give myself, you know, my list is probably about 300 things right now. Be like, go back to me or so. Hey, just chill out. Take a chill pill relax. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. That would probably go on my on my list that's a mile and a half long. Every time somebody says something. I'm like, oh, yeah, I probably should give myself that advice, too. Right. Yep. But that's definitely a good one. Definitely a good one. So we are we are coming to time. If someone is interested in reaching out to you, how would they go about contacting you?

Anne Jacoby 41:23

Yeah, well, certainly feel free to check out my website, SpringStreetco.com or an jacoby.com. You can reach out to me there. I'm on LinkedIn. And I'm also on Instagram at and Jacoby dot author. So any of those platforms? I'd love to hear from you.

Leighann Lovely 41:42

Excellent. And you're going to be having a book coming out sometime in 2023. So people should be looking out for that as well. But this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate your time today. It's been really fun.

Anne Jacoby 41:57

It's been fun for me to Leighann. Thanks for having me on your show.

Leighann Lovely 42:00

Yes. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Anne -

Website - https://www.springstreetco.com/

https://www.annejacoby.com/

e-mail - anne@springstreetco.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, creativity, culture, creative, organizations, company, employee, skills, focused, business, question, achieved, world, learning, talk, building, lian, conversation, reinvention, cultivate

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Owning and running a business is not for the faint of heart, businesses open and close all the time. Even if you manage to succeed you then have to manage the business, and the team, and then as you grow you have to create an environment that people want to work in. Lori Highby is a fantastic example of a successful entrepreneur, who puts a great emphasis on culture, growth, and education. This is and must hear episode.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Lori highby is a podcast host speaker, educator and founder of Keystone Click a strategic digital marketing agency. Using her vast multi industry knowledge gained from experience and education. She has the ability to see the potential of greatness within the already established good of a business. Through strategic actionable moves. She has worked with Fortune 500 Companies such as ABB and Syngenta, to micro business owners to achieve their marketing goals. Laurie carries her energy and drive into her professional engagement in order to empower and educate other fellow lifelong learners. Lori, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you.

Lori Highby 01:55

I'm excited to be here, Leighann. Thank you for inviting me to be on the show.

Leighann Lovely 02:00

So why don't we dive right in? Why don't you tell my audience Tell me a little bit about yourself?

Lori Highby 02:07

Oh, where do I get started? There's it's been a fun journey so far. You know, besides what you shared in the intro, you know, owner of Keystone click a strategic digital marketing agency. My background is in marketing, I worked at two agencies prior to starting my my company in 2008. I also am a huge advocate and Ambassador of all things related to education. So I'm a lifelong learner. I taught at the local university for a while and I continue to teach not at the university level but professionals nationally on topics related to marketing, which is something I'm extremely passionate about.

Leighann Lovely 02:50

Yes, you have to be if you're if you own your own business, right.

Lori Highby 02:53

Indeed and I do, go on

Leighann Lovely 02:57

I was gonna say or one would hope.

Lori Highby 02:59

Sure. Absolutely. Especially in the in the space we're in. I mean, digital marketing is changing so fast that we have to continue to educate ourselves to stay on top of it and really be in the know of, you know, the direction that it's going. On the personal side. I'm super active and you know, can't sit still the word boredom is not something I've experienced in a long time. Maybe since I was a kid. Travel, play a lot of sports, watch sports, adventures and experiences. That's what I'm all about.

Leighann Lovely 03:37

Excellent. And, you play hockey, right?

Lori Highby 03:40

Yep, I play hockey. I been getting into cycling. I'm working on right now I'm training to do a 100 mile bike ride and look at your face. And I golf, or pretend to golf, I don't know, whatever you want to call. And, you know, willing to try new things to Uber die.

Leighann Lovely 04:04

Okay, I want to go back to the the 100 mile the only way I'm going 100 Miles is in a car or a train or a plane. So what how did you decide to do that?

Lori Highby 04:17

Well, I probably I've been cycling for like, really focused on it maybe like three years now. And I there's just a big milestone in the cycling world of doing a century ride, which is, you know, centuries. 100. So, last year, I did a 70 mile ride and this year I committed to doing the century, right. And I've found that if I have a target that I'm working towards, and it keeps me motivated to get up and train which you know, I was up at 5:30am this morning to put 10 miles in so yeah.

Leighann Lovely 04:55

And I envy the people who have the discipline to be able to do that because I absolutely know myself well enough to know that I do not. And I have a girlfriend who, who ran a marathon and she, she trained and trained and trained. And I remember her saying, you know, halfway through that I was like, What the hell am I doing? But when? Right when she and then she finished, and she's like, and it was the greatest feeling in the world that I was able to finish that I did it. She's like, but there were moments during it that I was going, why am I even doing this? Well, you know, and as you're right, as your body is just screaming at you going, wow, you know, Stop, just stop. But yeah, there is there's that that complete sense of accomplishment? I'm sure. At the end of that.

Lori Highby 05:41

Well, yeah, I mean, I made a commitment to myself to try to. So my word for 2022. I don't know if everyone does this or not, I always pick a word was health and I really wanted to be mentally healthy, physically healthy and financially healthy. So I started with the mental really focusing on the physical, and the financials in a positive spot. So I feel like I'm knocking it out of the park with my word this year. But it is a commitment that I made to myself, and I knew that, if I'm going to do a century, if I'm going to do it, I need something to target. So you know, I signed up to do it, and, you know, the, the third quarter of the year, so that it gave me time to really focus on the training throughout the summer. And it's the main reason why I get up at 530 in the mornings, right? Because I know I have to put the edit the time in so that I'm ready to go on, on game day.

Leighann Lovely 06:39

Right? Yeah. Well, and picking a word that is that's a real, that's an excellent thing to do. Not just for personally, but as you mentioned, there's there's three things in there. One, you have to be mentally healthy in order to really do anything. I mean, and I think a lot of people out there forget, like, Oh, I'm just gonna keep pushing through and pushing through and pushing. No, you can't push through your mental health, if anything, if you're not mentally capable of doing that. So, you know, kudos to you to, you know, one picking that word and then holding yourself accountable each step of the way. Because it's, it's, it's tough, it's hard thing to do. But that's, that's awesome. I mean, yeah, thank you. So you own a successful thriving business, you said, you know, financially, you're in a good spot. So tell me a little bit about how you started this. And you know, how you built your team? And tell me about how that's going.

Lori Highby 07:36

Yeah, well, when I started it, oh, there's so many different things that I can share related to that. But we don't have that much time on the show today. So up from a marketing standpoint, I literally sent a message out to every single person that was in any sort of contact address book email list, literally, like I direct mail, snail mail, quick tangent. I told someone about snail mail on my team the other day, and they're like, what is that? And it's about died. Anyways, like, I actually put physical letters in the mail, and emailed everyone whose contact I ever had saying, Hey, this is what I'm doing. If you're interested, or you know, someone who's interested. Here's my contact info. And that's how I got my first three clients.

Leighann Lovely 08:24

Wow. So okay, and you did this in 2008? You said? Yep. So this was during a time when obviously, the world is recession, you know, in a word, right. In a complete state of crap. I mean, this is. So I'm thinking of what I'm doing at this time right now. 2008, I am struggling to make ends meet because I've been laid off multiple times. And now I'm taking on contract positions. So did were you in that? Were you in that boat? Were you laid off, were you, I mean what?

Lori Highby 08:58

No, actually, I was at an agency that was doing really well. The short story is I was unhappy there and decided I was trying to find a new job. But because of the state of the world at that time, there wasn't really much that interest me if I was going to make the change of my terms. I wanted to find something that was best suited for me. And that's when I decided that I could, I could go out on my own. And so I took the big leap. And, you know, I would say a ton of ignorance, maybe a little cockiness. But I've learned a lot over the years and helping to share some of that too, you know,

Leighann Lovely 09:47

But sometimes that ignorance takes away the fear that we should have. I mean, now the things that I know actually puts up some of the the blockers from me saying, Oh, I'm gonna go start my own business because I know too much about all of the things that could allow me to fail? And I'm like, I can't do it. I can't do it. You know, I know too much about how many people actually fail. Now, if I was back in my 20s, I'd go, oh, yeah, I can do this. I've got this. I mean, there's no way I'm gonna fail, you know, if so, the younger you are, you also have a lot less to lose when you're, you know? Sure, a little bit younger. So, ideally, you know, and maybe that's maybe that naiveness maybe that, you know, kind of, again, like I said, you also have a lot less to lose, you know, I, now I would have a house to lose versus an apartment.

Lori Highby 10:42

Yeah, would you? Sure. Yeah. I mean, there's, I mean, I think no matter what, there's always risks. There's always challenges. There's always stress. I mean, regardless of how much you know, or don't know, and there's factors in this world such as COVID, that you can't control, you know, so when you decide to start it, it's, I would say, the sooner the better, because the sooner that you start to learn those experiences and how to make, how to make it it, what am I trying to say, learn from learn from your mistakes. I mean, at the end of the day, I think I am actually in a better position from an intelligence wisdom experience standpoint than if I were to just continue to have worked for other people over the last 15 years. Because of all of the challenges that I've faced running a business,

Leighann Lovely 11:39

Right. And 15 years ago, who could have possibly imagined that we were going to go into a world? pandemic?

Lori Highby 11:48

Yeah, nobody, right. Maybe some smart people somewhere, knew what was happening, potentially.

Leighann Lovely 11:53

But somebody's sitting in a, you know, a round in a circle going, huh? I have a psychic ability. And guess what? So tell me, you know, now you've started your own business, you have your first three clients. How did you, you know, where do you go from there? How do you start to do the work create a team?

Lori Highby 12:17

Yeah, so I actually started out with some contractors initially, and then one of the gentlemen that was contracting with me, he basically said, you know, it would be great to just work full time with you. And I agreed, so I actually got some financing in order to support. My first two hires. Were, which was one was an account manager. And then another was a lead developer. So my first two full time hires were with me, one of them was with me for about three years. The other one was with me for about 10 years, actually. Which is insane and awesome at the same time. But that's that's basically how I got started. And then over time, we've, as we grew, and there was more demands, continued to add new people to the team. One of the ways that I did that actually was I built an internship program. So a lot of my team members started out as interns, which is, again, this goes back to my my passion for education, and teaching. So I was able to share and educate with eager students how how the business world actually works, and also simultaneously kind of test them out before they officially were offered a full time position. So I'd say a good percentage of people that have been interns at Keystone click actually converted to full time employees and stuck around for another two years or so before they took the leap to their next big professional advancement.

Leighann Lovely 14:05

That's awesome. Wow, I'm so stinking you you clearly have a culture that and you don't see that a lot anymore. But and because of the fact that some of the larger organizations the culture is not one that drives people in and keeps people for the long haul. 10 years, you're basically your first employee, one of your first employees was with you for 10 years. And I mean, that's that says something about you as a as a manager as a boss, and then to have you know, people that you're willing to spend time to train who ultimately want to stay and have a what an average length of time at their first position in In a very competitive industry, for what two years, you said? Yep. Yeah, that's, that's amazing. Because your industry is definitely one that is, is very competitive there with the constant, like you mentioned the constant changing the the variety of areas and disciplines that individuals can go in. That's, that's really awesome. So thank you, how do you? How do you nurture that culture? And how have you kind of worked with the individuals? And before I actually say, what is the total number of employees that you have now?

Lori Highby 15:43

Nine full time employees and probably about a dozen contractors that we work with on a fairly consistent basis

Leighann Lovely 15:50

Wow. Okay. So you definitely have had it? And I guess I don't know, compared to an agency marketing company, your ear, your a decent size, then?

Lori Highby 16:02

I mean, yeah. It's so hard to say that it's, you know, agencies are small and large agencies can be one person with a couple of part time people and some freelancers or hundreds of people. So yeah, I mean, I'd say, I think the average agency size is like around five or six employees, actually, yeah.

Leighann Lovely 16:25

Yep. And that's what well, with the ones that I come across on a regular basis, that's usually over here. So yeah, you are definitely a decent, decent size. And I will say, every time I see you, I know that you are running around and crazy busy. So you're doing something right. So so how do you, you know, how do you continue to? And I've, I'm asking this question, kind of knowing the answer, because you have you have told me a little bit about some of the practices that you have. But how do you continue to be available and let your employees know that you're there to continue to not just only lead them, but also continue to maintain and manage that culture that exists?

Lori Highby 17:14

Sure. Yeah, that's great question, and I'm happy about our culture, it's definitely taken time. And I want to just emphasize that it didn't happen overnight. I'll share a quick story, then I'll explain kind of the evolution of how we got to where we are today. But in in 2017, my father unexpectedly passed away. And I was not in a really good positive state. And then I want to say about 10 months after that happened, I had three employees all quit on the same day. And I realized very quickly, that I was I was the number one reason why that happened. And it was because of how I was representing bringing myself my energy, you know, to the organization. So that was a huge reality check for me. But one thing I've always done over whenever anyone departs is an exit interview. And I really started to pay attention to what people were saying during those exit interviews and learning from from that while also doing some self education, to be a better leader. And to really create a culture of a positive, positive energy where people are excited to get to work and excited to hang out with their co workers and do do the work that they're doing. So some of the things that I've incorporated over the years. I have my annual word, every quarter, I have everyone on my team pick a word that they're trying to focus on themselves. And we talk about it every Monday in our Monday meetings. How did you live up to your word last week? Right now, my quarterly word is intelligence, because I'm personally doing research on artificial intelligence and how it's incorporated into the world of marketing. And so I want to make sure that I'm continuing to honor that word and show my team that I'm doing that and everyone's got their own word. Another thing that's really so we do quarterly meetings, and this is where I share the state of the business, I share where we are today I share where we're going, how we're getting there, the wins the losses that we've had. So it's a very open, transparent conversation. And I let them ask any question that they want to ask. within the group. I also have bi weekly one on ones with each team member, where the it's they're facilitating the meeting. And then everyone that I would say is considered a A junior team member, I do monthly mentor chat. So this is really where I'm learning about, what are their long term professional and personal goals? And how can I help them achieve those goals? And I open up those mentor chats every single time with the same question of besides like, is there anything that you want to talk about? What I say? Is there anything that I did in the last month that you have questions on, so that they can feel comfortable just talking to me when I want about, you know, is it why it took a meeting with a certain person or why I, I handled the situation a certain way, because I want to make sure that I'm elevating their experience. So that in the future down the road, they're going to be the best professional that they can be. My goal, and I'm very transparent with all of my team members is I know, you're not going to stay with me forever. But I want you to be the best that you absolutely can be while you're with me, but also in the future, and I want you to reflect back, may not realize it right away, but know that you are where you are, in that point of time. And I maybe had a step towards helping you get there somehow someway. So in addition, every quarter, they have a word, and they have a rock, which is like a strategic initiative that they're working towards elevating the business, but they also have a personal educational goal that they have to achieve on a quarterly basis as well. And that's where they're, that's part of their own, you know, professional personal growth. You know, sometimes people are reading a book, sometimes they're learning a new skill, or a software or program or a process. But I think a combination of all of those factors, and just being really transparent, and open to being available as often as I can has helps to create that, that culture, where the team knows, they can come to me with anything a question and idea, a challenge. And I'm gonna listen and do my best to support however I can.

Leighann Lovely 22:16

So something that that really resonated with me that you started off, you know, obviously telling a story of something that you really learned from you, we we all have moments in our lives where we reflect on and we go, wow, I may have, you know, failed at this moment. But you are somebody whom, you know, I aspire to be more like many should, you know, aspire to be more like you were you can reflect on a situation and go, I made a mistake here, how can I fix it, and you actively sought out a way to not repeat the same mistake, which is something that I continuously do, and try to make sure that I don't, you know, repeat the same mistakes that we continue to make. And you've you've adjusted something that I also the question, and I love that I love that you ask your your employees to basically kind of interview you. So that they they can spread their wings. Because yes, you're right. I get it all the time in my business of a while I want the the next hire that I bring in, I want it to be somebody young and hungry, that's going to come in and be with me until they retire. Well, that's great. We all want that. But it's unrealistic. Into this isn't, you know, this isn't the day of the baby boomers where they took one job. And they stayed up until they retired. It's just not we, we have a society where there are companies that offer certain certain things. And I've had, I've had employees that that left, because there was, you know, better health insurance at a different company. And there's just so many options that are available now. And the idea that you as an employer want to be able to set that employee up not only to be successful at your agency, but to possibly be successful at their next career is amazing, because most companies don't think that way. They think what can you do for me today? And how are you going to make me better? And it's all about me, me, me, me. You're giving you're you're giving yourself to them in in a sense of No, I want to help mentor you not just be your leader, I want to mentor you for the future. And that's awesome. It's not something that people do on a regular basis because you're not just coming in as a as a manager or as an owner of this as mine helped me here you're you're coming in as a as a true leader and mentor of people.

Lori Highby 24:46

Yeah, thank you. I've, I've got relationships with a number of paths, team members. And I've mentored a number of them over the years to you know, someone will reach out and say, Hey, I'm considering this out. Opportunity, can I talk to you about it, and I'm always open. And I've told them that, you know, as they as they move on to their next stage, you know, don't be afraid to reach out if you if you want to have a conversation or your, you know, need to just talk through something. Yeah, there's a handful of people that still reach out, or they've moved on to out of state and when they're in Milwaukee, they, they reach out to Hey, Laurie, let's grab lunch, you know, I'd love to catch up. So I just love that I love that they've, they've, I've built the type of relationship with them, various team members that goes beyond just, you know, boss employee, and it's, you know, that it's a trusted adviser. It's mentor, it's friend, you know, and I think that's really important to do.

Leighann Lovely 25:44

And here's a question that I love to ask some of my some of my team, I'll ask them, you know, is there anything that you need from me today? And then, is there anything that I did today that I shouldn't be doing? Is there anything today that I should have done? Or that I forgot to do for you? And I, I love to ask that question. Now. I am not there. I'm not an owner. I am not technically their their direct boss, I am, you know, in a kind of a limbo stage, I guess, as it will more of a supervisory role where, you know, I, I'm I providing a lot of the, you know, the stuff they need to do to their job kind of thing. But on the other hand, you know, there are so many times where you never know if you say it sometimes the wrong thing, it rubbed somebody the wrong. Hey, I'd much rather have them come back and say, Yeah, you know, you kind of said this, and it pissed me off, versus have them walk away and just be resentful for like, the next five days and have them eventually be like, oh, man, she's such a bitch. I just don't want that hanging out there. Yeah. So it's like, Hey, Did I do anything that that I shouldn't have done? Like, if I did just tell me because we'll work through it.

Lori Highby 27:02

Great question. Oh, that is a good question. And I've learned because most people when they first meet me, they're very intimidated by me. And I don't know why that is. I'm trying to figure that one out. Probably my super A plus personality of some sort, like type A, gotta go constantly. But I've told New team members, part of the onboarding, I say, This is my communication style. If you have a different expectation, or preference, you need to tell me otherwise, I'm going to be strong and direct and right there, and I'm not going to beat around the bush. So you got to tell me if you have other ways you want me to communicate with you.

Leighann Lovely 27:46

As I used to get this all the time. There are, I guess, I don't know that there's a name for this. I am a not a soft Walker. I am a I'm heavy footed. There we go. I'm heavy footed. And people used to say like LeighAnn I always know when you're walking down, like the row and they're like, it's, it's, there is no other person in this office. That sounds like you when you walk. And I'm like, I don't I don't get what that means. What do you mean? They're like, you sound like elephants coming? I'm like, Okay, it's somebody finally goes, it's just a determined walk. I'm like, Okay, let's go with that versus elephants. Because I'm very much like, if I've got something to do, I'm boom, boom, like, Let's go like I'm Yeah. But you know, obviously being destroyed. I'm definitely in a personality like, and I never really realized that. Yeah, I and I can't stop it. Like there's times at night, my husband sleeping, my daughter's sleeping, and I'm trying to walk and I'm like, How do I walk quietly? it those are just, you know, the intimidation. You know, there are people other people that have said, Yeah, everybody seems to be intimidated. But Brad herder. I'm gonna give a shout out to he says, everybody that meets me says that I'm intimidating, you know, when they meet me and I'm like, I can see that he's he has a presence about him. You have a presence about you. I think that people who have those a type personalities, those people who are determined those people who have there is a presence that exist man or woman, it doesn't matter. It just you have that authoritative, like, I'm gonna get it done. You got something to do. I'm gonna I'm gonna go and get it done kind of thing. Yet there are people that you would think would be more intimidating and I could throw out a number of names. They're not going to do that. Yet. They're not because I could I can actually list out some personality things that they do. There's one very tall individual, I think you probably know who I'm talking about. I don't know if you do or not. But

Lori Highby 30:10

In my head, I know, you talked about where you haven't even described him yet or her.

Leighann Lovely 30:16

When you talk to him, he actually bends over and crouches and gets a little closer to you, and talks a little softer, and he becomes immediately very comforting and kind. And he's no longer intimidating at all. But if you see him from across the room, he he is a very intimidating person. But the moment you start talking to him, he's just, he's a big gigantic teddy bear. And that's his charm is that he can draw people in and I'm sure that he could sell water to that's probably a bit ice to an

Lori Highby 30:52

Eskimo

Leighann Lovely 30:53

Eskimo, there we go. Because as soon as you start talking to him, he just, he kind of just pulls you in, and he gets to level despite the fact that he's ridiculously tall. And it's, it's very interesting on on, Okay, anyways, we went off on a tangent, I love tangents.

Lori Highby 31:12

That's okay. Me too.

Leighann Lovely 31:13

So, um, and, you know, you recognize these things when you're standing in a room of, you know, business owners. And, and it doesn't mean that, you know, again, once sitting down and having a conversation with you, or some of the other individuals, it's like, wow, I was because when I first met you, I have to say, I was like, wow, she's a little intimidating.

Lori Highby 31:39

From everyone, no, I know this about me. But thank you for verifying that it's still a legit thing that's happening.

Leighann Lovely 31:48

Because you, you have very much of a, okay, you said you don't know why. Because you are a wildly successful woman who people either want to be like, or fear they're not good enough, or at your level. Sure. But once you sit down and have a conversation with you, you're a very warm and welcoming person, but your intelligence level and your knowledge is through the roof. So you're like, Wow, can I keep up? Can I keep up with this person? So it's, it can be it can be hard to, to do that. It can be hard to keep up. And so especially people who have you know, the, what is it? Imposter syndrome? They're like, Oh, my gosh, she's gonna find me. It's it's one of those things that, you know, step push and pull constantly. Yeah,

Lori Highby 32:41

I've got impostor syndrome. Everyone does.

Leighann Lovely 32:44

I know, I know, every time. There's periods in everybody's lives, where they're like, Oh, can I do this? And am I right? I know.

Lori Highby 32:52

That's a whole another podcast episode. I was just about to go on a big long tangent decided we'll pause.

Leighann Lovely 33:01

Right? Yes, everybody has in the house. You right, that is a whole nother. So you also have a you have two podcasts now?

Lori Highby 33:10

Yes, I do, Social capital, which is, let's see episode like 370 something, I believe. So I interviewed professionals globally on the topic of networking, and how networking has really helped them get to where they are today. And my newest podcast, I have two amazing co hosts is called a broadcast for manufacturers. And worse, three broads. Talking about broad topics. Some of them may be a little taboo to some people and touchy. And others are just more like realistic related to the current times, you know, supply chain. People shortages and whatnot, but all focused around the manufacturing industry.

Leighann Lovely 34:00

Interesting. And you say some topics may be a little bit more touchy. And you don't have to go into extreme detail. But are we talking? I'm nosy?

Lori Highby 34:11

Well, sure. So I mean, we're three female and manufacturing is typically a very masculine industry. So that's really where we're talking about, you know, elevating women in that space. For sure. But, I mean, we're not it's not just a show for for women, it's a show for anyone that's in manufacturing, but I think it's important to talk about you know, the challenges that are being faced, depending on you know, not just you know, what gender you are but your sexuality and you know, your you know, people are discriminated often and in many different ways and, and unfortunately, you know, historically manufacturing is, is a white male industry and I think that And we're trying to say, especially from the people side of things, like there's a lot of extremely intelligent and very capable individuals out there, and they don't all have to be white males to work in that industry.

Leighann Lovely 35:14

Yeah, that's Wow, that's I'm gonna have to listen to that. That is a absolute great topic. And it's interesting. Last season, I had interviewed two women who wrote a book about Lean Manufacturing. Because both of them came up through the ranks and manufacturing, came together to wrote, wrote an awesome book about that. And talked about some of the struggles they had, as leaders in the manufacturing industry. And it was it's just, and there's a story that they go through and that they talked about, you'll have to, you know, anybody listening, you have to check that out. I don't even know what number episode that was. But because it's true there, you know, one of them how to get a membership to a, you know, Country Club, but it was like, areas of the country club that only men were allowed to go in. And she's like, how am I supposed to have meetings? Yeah, because it was usually only a man who held the, the position that she was in. So it's definitely, I mean, I'm seeing more and more women, I have a woman interviewing for, you know, a product management role. Yeah. And that's, and I get excited about that. Like, yes, we are seeing more and more women rise to the top in those types of positions. But it's, it's a struggle to see some of the women take on some of those positions, and you feel like you're still seeing discrimination in pay, you're still seeing discrimination and a lot of those things that that it's taken years to overcome. I had a conversation with a woman the other day who she says I want to be over the over the road truck driver, and she goes, and I just feel like, I won't be taken seriously, even in school. And I'm like, What? No, you you, if you want to do that you do you like that? Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you can't do it. Yeah. Yeah. And she's like, I don't know. I'm like, yeah, like, you got to stop thinking in the old way, or will never progress to a point in life where everybody else in the rest of the world stops thinking like that. Yep. So I love those conversations. I love the, again, you know, having conversations with dei experts on, you know, the, the psychology behind why our society still is struggling to get over some of them. I say get over, but it's not what I how I mean, it I mean, to evolve to evolve. Yes, yeah, I don't want to use a word that people are gonna, like, get over. Now evolve. And it's an understanding that, you know, psychology behind that is, is definitely. It's fascinating. It's also sad, when you really dive into it and go, Oh, okay. Because I grew up in Oconomowoc, in, you know, the 80s and 90s. And there was no black people living in Oconomowoc at that time. So I grew up very privileged, very blind to the world. And then I went to the military and got complete and total culture shock and started to actually experience the real world. Sure. Thank God. So, okay, another tangent. So that how many episodes are you in on that? And what is it called again?

Lori Highby 38:39

It's called a broadcast for manufacturers. I want to say we're at like, 10 episodes now. No, we're, we're in the double digits.

Leighann Lovely 38:48

It's amazing.

Lori Highby 38:49

Which is yeah, super, super exciting. Yeah, it's, great. It's I mean, the topics are broad, and that's intentional. The focus is manufacturing. So you know, we've talked about supply chain, we've talked about software and technology and manufacturing. So it's, it's a fun conversation, but we're not afraid to bring up the things and the topics that some people might not feel comfortable talking about.

Leighann Lovely 39:19

Right? Well, and, yeah, you shouldn't be you shouldn't be afraid to do that. This is a great, this is a great time for me to just say if somebody wants to listen to either one of your podcasts or reach out to you, and you I know that your business Keystone click also you kind of have a niche in that manufacturing space. Correct? Yep, yep. Yes.

Lori Highby 39:41

So if so, my contact info Sure. Lots of get in touch with me. Sorry. I'm used to being the host. Sorry. I'm like, I know what the question is. I'm ready to know Yeah, can you still click.com social capital podcast.com And I think it's MFG. You know, the podcasts you can find on all the podcast shows or Apple, you know, Google Play all that fun stuff. The best place you're gonna be able to connect with me though is LinkedIn. So just look for Laurie J, hi, V. And you can follow me I post daily information on marketing, plus, all podcast episodes get published there as well. Or just send me a message and say, you heard me on the on super awesome show.

Leighann Lovely 40:31

And this will also be in the show notes, too. So I'll put all your contact and everything in the show notes. And yes, my super awesome show. Okay, so we are coming to time, but you are not out of answering the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. So when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Lori Highby 40:53

That is a good question. You know, I would actually go back to my college years. And my advice would be to create relationships with the students that I was in school with, but more so the relationships with the professors that I had. And I think nowadays, it's so easy to do that, like you can, when I taught, I would just tell the students connect with me on LinkedIn, you know, and I, I can easily stay in touch with them. But when I was going to college, I mean, you didn't even have an email address. See, you would, you would either go to the scheduled open office hours of the professor, or you had their like home phone number, you would call them. Okay, that makes me feel really old right now. But that's because no one had like cell phones, you know, it wasn't common practice that everyone had a phone at that time. So it wasn't the same way you couldn't, you couldn't really foster a relationship with a professor back then. And I think I would do it more. So from a mentor standpoint, like I didn't really have a go to mentor to give me advice and counsel of my professional career, I really was all focused on figuring it out on my own. And that probably led to the whole ignorance and starting the business. Because I just was like, I could do this by myself. But I, in general, I think everyone should always have a mentor. That's probably why it's so important to me to help mentor, the team that I have now, because I didn't necessarily have one. And that was their age.

Leighann Lovely 42:43

You know, it's so I always think, Wow, I'm so far behind. I started networking so late in life. And then I realized that I really didn't I just kind of, I started networking right away. It just was done so drastically different. When I was coming. I mean, we Yeah, you still went to these events, but you just couldn't communicate the way that we do now. Yeah, like, I mean, I was on LinkedIn, when LinkedIn very first came out. I was, I just I always look back. And I'm like, why, why wasn't I doing this like this when I first started my career, and then I go, Oh, right. Right. Yeah, because we didn't have the ability to do this.

Lori Highby 43:25

Yet LinkedIn didn't exist. And we were going right on to college and right, first got started. Yeah. And actually, it took a while for LinkedIn to turn into what it is today, because it was almost like a phone book, you know, a contact book, to some extent for the longest time

Leighann Lovely 43:41

We used to, So when it first came out, we used to connect, we used to go to a party, it was called a LinkedIn party. We would meet people, then we would connect with them on LinkedIn. And that's how we that's how we made those connections. You had that when it very first came out? Yeah. I mean, I was like, on it, like, immediately. And then I was part of training people on how to use that. I mean, but that's how it wasn't like, go look somebody up on LinkedIn and connect with them and then eventually talk with them and build the relationship. It was no you met them first. You connected with them. And I mean, it was just it was really weird. Like, when I think back to the days of like, when I first joined, it was weird. Anyways, this has been such an awesome conversation. You know, we could have an entire like series of you and I talking about a whole bunch of different stuff. Yes, but um, thank you so very much for coming on and talking with me.

Lori Highby 44:52

Oh, this was super fun. I appreciate the invite and happy to go on tangents as many times as you want.

Leighann Lovely 45:01

Lori Highby

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lorihighby/

https://mfgbroadcast.com/

https://lorihighby.com/social-capital-podcast/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, started, work, business, mentor, world, employees, team members, talk, question, manufacturing, conversation, linkedin, culture, women, word, agency, tangent, keystone, continue

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Randy Wilinski, is someone who loves people and puts the utmost importance on customer service, thus making him the perfect person to speak about how to create and maintain culture because after all if we treated our employees more like customers and less like numbers we would find our employees as loyal as our customer. However, it starts with understanding and this is something that Randy speaks, trains, and coaches about. This is a fantastic conversation, don’t miss it!

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Randy Wilinski is a speaker, trainer and coach, he has worked as a Customer Experience Manager in several major corporations. As a speaker, he shows organizations how to build a culture of customer loyalty and resilience. Randy trains people in all occupations who interact with both internal and external customers. In his workshops, he trains leaders to build resilience in their workforce in order to increase their impact. He loves to mountain bike kayak cooking and restore classic cars in his free time.

Leighann Lovely 01:42

Randy, I'm so excited to have you here to talk with me today.

Randy Wilinski 01:46

I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Leighann Lovely 01:49

Yeah. So why don't we jump right in? Why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Randy Wilinski 01:54

All right, I will do that. So I am a speaker, trainer, coach, I also work in marketing. And I love people. I'm passionate about people. So that manifests in a lot of different ways. But because I'm passionate about people, I have found a niche and customer service. I've always loved helping people and being a solution and finding ways around problems and delivering you know, those amazing customer experiences. So that's where I found a niche. And then as I've gone on my speaking journey as well, I've had a great mentor Jeff Cordis, who he also speaks on employee retention. And then I've gotten into so much of working with him and seeing his speech. Sometimes I've even delivered that speech, which is really cool. But it's all still about people, right? It's all about people like retaining people is all about how you treat them good customer service is all about how you treat them. And so those are two areas that I talked about, and I'm passionate about. And then just individual people's resilience to problems to problem solving the problems and struggles that they have internally, to things that manifest on the outside which those can be employee retention problems, those can be customer experience problems, people don't realize to like, sometimes your customer is your co worker that you have to deliver something to. So you mix all that together, I'm passionate about people, and then I want to train with people and teach them anything that I can learn new that's going to help them do better at work do better in life.

Leighann Lovely 03:19

And this is why I love talking with you so much. Because you know, I love people, I'm passionate about people as well. So, again, prior to having you come on you and I had a great conversation. So I'm really excited to continue this conversation. But people are everything they make up all of our businesses they make up. I mean, if we can get back to that true customer service, whether that be talking like what you just said to our co workers and treating them like our customers, and that true customer service, when it comes to business to business wouldn't just be a better world to live in

Randy Wilinski 03:55

100% like that. That's the thing that I think I love most about it for people, as when I'm doing trainings with them is like this shouldn't just be how you treat this person or how you treat someone that reports to you. You should start going, Oh, this is how I should treat my spouse, oh, maybe I need to talk to my kids a little bit more this way. Instead of losing my temper. Maybe I need to think about things differently. I want this to transcend your work environment, because it is about people like again, that's that's why I think we hit it off. It's because you're so passionate about about finding people about putting them in the right place is about making them happy. Same thing, we're right there. We're in sync, I that's what I love to like the human interaction. Like I'm off the charts when it comes to like, you know, those tests like the Myers Briggs and all those stuff, but when you get into like the percentages, I'm like, off the charts for people, you know, like IV, we were talking about that. They're like, here's the disc we're talking about it at work and they're like, oh Randy, he Oh my God, he's, he's an AI like they there's no question about about you know, being extroverted caring about other people being attuned to people. And I think that that that no matter who you are, you need to learn those skills, you aren't going to get anything in life if you don't get the most out of your interactions with other humans.

Leighann Lovely 05:13

Right. And it's interesting that I just was having a conversation with somebody else about the younger generation struggling with that, you know, I, you and I grew up in a time when, you know, you have to pick up the phone and call people, right? Yeah. And you have a younger generation who you call them and you don't, they don't answer you.

Randy Wilinski 05:36

For that, that's rude. Maybe like, what do you call me out of the blue? Right, right.

Leighann Lovely 05:41

But you text them and it's like, instantaneous, they text back and you're like, Okay, you clearly have your phone in your hands. I just called you like, why can't I pick up the phone. So there's,

Randy Wilinski 05:54

That's a great, that's a great point. And that so we're elder millennials, I've heard that called before, I kind of liked that term. So I was like, and I want to ask your age, that would be rude, right? But we'll say an older millennial like me, if you're from like, 81 to 85, which is all cap off at my I was born in 85, you understand an analog world and a digital world. So we're actually in a really cool spot, because we can, like I remember having three channels on the television and turning it with the with the players because you don't know where the button went to. I remember that I remember, when pagers came out, like I had to have a paging so ridiculous, because I probably got like five pages on it, like I didn't even need it. But it was like the cool new technology. And then all the way to, you know, the instant gratification as I called dopamine drug dealer that we have, which is another huge problem that we're going to have to deal with as a society, because this thing is dinging bopping, begging all the time is a whole other problem. And those younger people, they're addicted to it, and then they use this technology to keep the human interaction like this, right, let's keep you let's keep you separate from me, this is my safe area. And not only younger people were people are straining people's calls, people are getting maybe a little less friendly than what they used to just because there's changes in technology, you're just seeing it so drastically with people who, like us can't even remember what life was like before, you could instantly connect with someone. So lots of shifts have happened. But it's definitely something that everybody needs to be thinking about and talking about. And even with their younger people, you got to you almost have to if they're unwilling to, you have to sell them on the concept that this human interaction, you know, we're, if we were in person, it'd be even higher, but we're having a conversation, we can see each other's body language, there's so much value in that as humans.

Leighann Lovely 07:47

Right, right. And so I was I was, I don't know where I was going, but I'm driving down the street, right? And I see people taking a walk and I'm like, wow, it's great. People are getting out taking a walk. But then you realize, no, wait, they're taking a walk that they're looking at, they're not looking up and looking around. They're looking down at their phone while they're walking. And I'm like, Oh my God. Like, even when you're out side, even when people are walking their dog, they still have their cell phones glued to them. And yes, I born at one. I'm 41 years old.

Randy Wilinski 08:26

Oh, you made the cut off. Right? Right.

Leighann Lovely 08:30

I used to pretend that I was not a millennial. I know. I know. But even when I got my first cell phone when I was 18 years old, and I I was one of the I used to get mad at my friends and be like, Are you are you kidding? Like, let's just go out and like if you're sitting and having dinner with somebody, you're really going to answer your phone. And so I guess I've become one of those like, old angry people when our conscience like don't answer your phone if you're sitting at dinner with somebody 100% 100% So I've kind of become a cranky like, old lady when it comes to that kind of now. I will admit, I have been guilty of that occasionally. And and then of course I find a way to justify it. Well, that one was important.

Randy Wilinski 09:24

My thing was important. What you're doing is stealing time from me. 100%

Leighann Lovely 09:32

Of course, you know, but yeah, I mean, even back when they first came in, and back then that was the black, you know, big phone with the Oh, the bag. Well, it wasn't that No, it wasn't no, it wasn't that but it was. It was still it was it just had the black screen and the green letters and if you text it took, you know, half an hour to make one text.

Randy Wilinski 09:55

Oh my gosh, yeah, there was no way you're gonna hit three buttons and then they came out with But it's funny to think about the technology evolution. But absolutely, yeah, the it stayed at this kind of contained level. And not everybody was doing it until it became just so easy. And now it's like we're integrated. It's like our, it's like our leg. If we're missing our phone, we like need it.

Leighann Lovely 10:17

Right, right. And my husband and I walk out of my house, I've walked out of my house and started driving away multiple times, though, without my cell phone. I'm like, Oh, crap, I gotta turn around and go get it. And my husband, How do you do that? And I'm like, because I when I get home, I don't want. I don't want to look at my phone. Unfortunately, I have to, because that's the only way anybody can communicate. There's been times where my dad has had to text my husband and say, you know, I've been trying to get a hold of Leighann all day.

Randy Wilinski 10:48

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's one of those things, it's now become such a norm. And it's become so like, if people get angry if they can't access you, or you don't get back to them. Whereas you think, obviously, if when we were growing up, you had to call someone on the phone, if you didn't get a hold of them, you left a message, and you didn't expect to have instant connection to people you didn't you didn't have these preconceived things that you put on them. While I text you while I do this, how come you didn't, it was just like, oh, they'll get back to me when they get back to me, right? 24 hours was very standard. And when you left the office, the office didn't follow you really. I mean, I suppose for some people, especially 90s time, they're getting bagged phones, car phones, that was the coolest thing that was giant blocks to walk around with, but in the world has changed so much so drastically. And we can't even keep up as humans, like we have to think about, not only can it potentially destroy communication, but it just changes our interactions. And so we got to have those conversations. So that's why the generational conversation has become so important. I love talking about it. Because it isn't your fault. If you're a young millennial especially, or a Gen Z, if you've had something like this your whole life. And then everybody's like, Oh, they're so stupid. They're so addicted to it. They are literally addicted to it. This is this is dingbat, bang, boom. This is the dopamine releasing, addictive. It's like gambling. It's like drinking. It's like any other advice. It's literally advice. And now you've given it to practically toddlers, we got toddlers that can't even speak on iPads. And there's, there's a thing to be said, like, look how smart we could make them look how we could do this. But they're not interacting with humans that are right, that's gonna affect that's gonna affect their development. And it's not their fault. That's what parents have to make that decision. Parents have to know about that, right? Lawyers have to know about how they want to have this relationship. Do you want to be a culture where you are always accessing your people, because that's the cool thing about millennials and Gen Z. They might like that they liked like the kind of the hustle and the move and maybe responding at 10 o'clock at night. Your older generations might go, don't call me on the weekends, don't text me about work. Don't call me about work. And so you can have conversations about boundaries, you can have conversations about what's best for the employees and work life balance. In the first program we ever made. It was called Making Millennials great, because everybody was hating Millennials so hard. And we were like, You know what, some of these things that are annoying you? I see. And we every time we'd have millennials in the crowd, they would be well, not me. And I genuinely believe it. Like they were leaders. They were moving. But like I've got friends that are doing those things. I've seen that I have employees that are annoying me with ghosting, give me a good example. You didn't get to find no baby boomers or Gen Xers ghosting employers getting hired and never hearing from them again. That's a new problem. Right? Not exist before.

Leighann Lovely 13:43

Right? Right. And the older generation is trying to figure out like, what I don't get it, but it is also a symptom of the way that some of these individuals have been brought up. 100% Which is exactly what you're saying. And yeah, it's a respect thing. When I was growing up, it was Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Or sir, or, you know, Mr. Smith, may I please. Some of these kids now I, you know, I'm doing you know, let me back up, because you hit a nerve. Some of these younger generations. It's like, they look at you like, you owe them something. And I just, I look at them and I'm like, how even employees even when they start a job, like, you will say something to them, and they're snarky, and they're like, and I'm dumbfounded when I started the job it was, I'm gonna follow the rules. I'm going to not that I didn't have, you know, chip on my shoulder and did you know didn't think that like, Oh, I'm gonna come in with all the brightest newest ideas.

Randy Wilinski 14:54

Because yeah, that's what young people do. Young people

Leighann Lovely 14:57

Correct, but I still respected the fact that I had a manager that I needed to report to? I would, you know, you don't know show your first day of work, you don't, you know, no show an interview and then expect to get another interview you, you know, if you're sick you, you call before your shift starts not what Yeah, two hours after. Right, right. And this is like a trend that you're constantly seeing. And it's it's insane. It's absolutely insane. Now before we continue, I love where this conversation is going. But before we continue I just so your role because we didn't really your role at some of these companies is you go in not only are you a speaker, but you are a trainer. And you are also a coach. Yes. So before we continue this, how did you like, how did you end up down that path?

Randy Wilinski 15:59

Well, two roads diverged in a woods. One was dark and scary, the other was bright and amazing. And I chose the bright and amazing road traveled now. So yeah, that's kind of an interesting story, even just to get into that. And that would have been a great thing to tell you. But this is this kind of a weird spot. So I was working in corporate America. And I really loved it. I was I was I was kind of a golden boy. That's always my goal. Whenever I work somewhere, to have everybody like me to deliver high on those things of like, what do they need? What do they want, I'll do whatever it takes. And so that's just a good way to climb up the corporate ladder, I was even thinking I should read a book about that, like, be in the Golden Boy, there's a way or golden girl, whatever, we'll figure out how to be made a goal. It's like, if somebody asks you for something, figure out how to do it. And there's nothing I dislike disdain or hate more than people that say that's not my job, or Oh, something something, it's like, okay, even if that's not my job, I'll never let those words come out of my mouth. It's like, let me find you the right person. That's the that's internal customer service. Oh, you need something, you need something that, hey, let me find the best person for that. Or oh, you know what, I'm gonna get that question for you. Now, I'm like the champion of solving that problem for them, even if I'm not the one that solves it. So I think that's just again, a key formula for climbing up at something is be open, be willing try things take on more than you feel you can do. And then you can always back down and say, great, you know what, I'm liking this I'm doing this, you know, I can be even better with if if we take this off my plate. But a lot of people want to push everything off and keep all these distances, and they're just not open to opportunities and things. Anyway, I digress. We could talk down that road if you want later. But so I was in corporate America, I remember I had a boss, I had a boss who it was like after work at like six or 7pm And we did have a chain it was in technology. So I was on a call list. And I think again, I was just exhausted from work. And I had fell asleep at like 637 or one of my is either one of my guys one of my girls didn't answer the phone for something got escalated I didn't answer until will say half an hour hour later I like woke up oh my god, I got missed calls what's going on? And you know, just got reamed out just got chewed out. And my boss before that was super great. restructured now I got this new boss, I don't have any credit with him. I don't want to ever he's got a different style. And he's just a jerk. I'm like, for no reason. Like, it's one thing to be like, Hey, Randy, you know, you know, I know this that you got to always try to be available, make sure that we get ahead of conversation just got reamed out and I got mad. And and I did the millennial thing too. With this. I said, I could keep working at this job with this guy who's a jerk. Or I could go do my own thing and own it. Because I'm never going to own this company. And most people, especially older generation, say Oh, super secure, great benefits, upward mobility, you know, put up with some BS for a little bit. And you'll you'll you know, who cares? And that probably in some respects, the right thing to do. But what I did instead is I jumped ship and I had my sister's family business that she had created with her husband out in Denver that like come to help us run it come out there and do it. And so I jumped ship I left Wisconsin I moved out to to Denver, and the quick synapses. We could go down this at another time. But imagine American Ninja Warrior meets American gladiator meets Wipeout all together. So you can picture that for small groups of people. So like 12 I mean, I guess up to like 300, 400 we've had in there. And there was a lot of team building opportunities. So that's where I first started learning that I love leading groups of people through obstacle courses, through hilarious challenges through through challenging things. And I like to adults, so like a lot of times you get a lot of the younger kids that would do these things with groups of parties, but I love the team building aspects. I could incorporate what I learned in the corporate world to this new environment. And it was super fun. And that was at least kind of the genesis of where I got the idea that I wanted to do more training and work with companies and help them and, and change their minds about things like that's where I started seeing it and getting really excited. And then just to cap it off, I had run into somebody who was a speaker and a trainer out in out in Denver. And one of the questions, of course, they asked is, well, you know, what do you want to be when you grew up? It wasn't quite that. But, you know, what do you want to do for your future? That's not I'm like, I want to do what you do. And so her and I had gotten to meet and I really liked what she was doing. She was an author, she was a speaker, she was a trainer, that kind of got me kicked off on it. And then what was perfect is a lifelong friend, and the father of a gentleman that I went to school with who has been a lifelong friend in high school, his dad was a speaker and a trainer. So like, he had talked to me about this, before I left saw the potential, I had this another experience out in Denver. And then I'm like, Okay, I gotta move back by family, I want to go reconnect back in Wisconsin, we came together and then created something out of that. So it's kind of a long way to like, it's a little serendipitous. Like, I just, I fell into it a little bit. And then I had a mentor that was really going to be able to help me and it's just been a, it's been a process. It's not been a it's not been a straight road, I'll tell you that for sure. But it's been a process. And again, it's still something I love and enjoy doing till this day.

Leighann Lovely 21:13

That's amazing. And you know, what, I think that the majority of people out there is some are extremely intentional, but a lot of us fall into, you know, our areas of expertise or passions in in some way or another. And that's quite a story. That's that's quite a story.

Randy Wilinski 21:34

It's yeah. Is it fate, right? It's like, if I would have stayed here, maybe I would have been anyway, because because Jeff, who I do co speaking with, especially the optimizing generations, he was telling me, I should be doing it before I left. And I'm like, Ah, yeah, you know, I could maybe, and then I go out there. And it's still pulling me even though it was like it almost was chasing me down. I'll say I like it. Like, it's like, I got a little more experience. And then I had that and I gravitated. And I told him that you were gonna go to the seminar. You know, we're going to learn about this, I want you to understand the business. And then when I came back, we've been speaking, I think that was like 2015 or something. We've been doing speakings and trainings together ever since. But it's like, it's like the dream chased me down. I didn't choose the game. The game chose me, or at least I hope so. I hope that's true.

Leighann Lovely 22:20

That's awesome. That's amazing. I love it. Yeah. So optimizing the generation for greatness. Yeah. Okay. So tell me about that.

Randy Wilinski 22:31

So you know, what's really cool, I'll tell you two, you only asked for one. And I'll give you more than you asked for this. This really started as making Millennials great. It was built on five pillars, I'll just cover them really quickly, because it evolved into well for bringing all the generations together, it's a little different. But what we were saying for millennials is vision, then this can be for employees, people need to know why what they're doing matters, and why their job matters. It's so important. It transcends generations. But it's what we said, like you could have gotten away with it with with baby boomers, where they're just like, give me my paycheck, give me a raise every couple of years, whatever. And I'll stay and I'll be loyal, you need to have a vision because Millennials have a higher expectation. They want it to be and younger, and Gen Z, they want to be connected with something that matters. Number two, growth. It's the number one thing for younger people, growth, growth, growth, they want to go somewhere that they can learn more that they can grow, that they can be challenged, you have to provide those opportunities, especially for younger people, again, older generations would be like, Yeah, whatever. If it's stable, if it's good, if I can take care of my bills, you know, different cultures, and like the Gen X, like you said, You're right on the edge of Gen X. That's the work hard party hard type generation. They want to work really hard, and they want to disconnect from work. It's just typical, right? And Baby Boomers, I want something super secure. I want to save for my future I want to provide, I want to be a hard working but growth it once they're established. They're not interested in it. So younger people growth, feedback. So this is the one that just kind of fun, because with younger people, a lot of people think that we're kind of whiskey, right? We can handle harsh feedback. And there is some degree that you have to use a little different tact with younger people, because if you try to hit them over the head don't like you would a younger or older person like a baby boomer, if they got cussed out by their boss, they'd be like, Man, Screw that guy. And they'd be drinking about a beer and complaining to their friend and then they'd go back to work. You cuss out a millennial or a Gen Z. You're never going to see them again. They are leaving time. Yeah, so So proper feedback. Okay, but you got to adjust it you can't use that way to talk

Leighann Lovely 24:41

And, and I just want to make a comment on the point where you so it's hard right now for because a lot of them managers are baby boomers, or Gen Xers. And they don't you know, again, it's hard for them. to manage the younger generation and understand that you can't give them feedback, the way that you get feedback, if you go and do it the way that you're accustomed to, or have throughout your career, and that's the struggle that I always come up against, when, you know, placing individuals and companies because, you know, I can't go to my client and be like, Yeah, so my, my employee called me today, and wants me to find him a new job, because apparently, you went out there and, and use the tough approach and said, You know, I'm gonna need you to, you know, and basically cussed them out. And you try to explain that to the older generation. They're like, well, I just told them, they needed to step up their game or whatever. And yeah, you should have, I guess, maybe held their hand. And, and again, I'm, you know, I'm being facetious. But.

Randy Wilinski 25:53

But there's a spectrum on that. And you're 100%, right, because like, cussing people out, it never worked, ever, but you could have gotten away with it, you absolutely won't. Even they're like, I'm as gingerly as humanly possible. And these people are just not resilient, which is another area I'm passionate about. They're just like, they're kind of what I always say these fun, like, what was one I heard in the south a hothouse Lily, like, ooh, it's gotta be everything's got to be perfect, or they're gonna wilt. Like, that's a great explanation. But so you're right. There's this, like, there's a spectrum, but then it's like, how, where are you coming from? Where are they coming from? How can we have understanding and maybe some of that is, there's a conversation a little bit about what feedback is gonna look like, and that you care about them. And people give you a lot of grace, if they know you actually care about.

Leighann Lovely 26:43

It's the it's, it goes back to something I've heard, especially over the last couple of years, more and more and more. Bring me a seasoned individual, because I don't have time to handhold somebody. Hmm, interesting. Yeah. And I'm like I, you know, and again, then you have other people who are like, Oh, I really want a young individual who will fit into, you know, see, I've always, you know, my mold, right, right. You've got you've got companies who are, you know, on both ends of the spectrum. But I get that that term, bring me a seasoned individual. I don't want to handhold them. And I just cringe when I hear that, because I'm like, yeah, it's not all, all they're asking for is proper training and understanding you, as a company need to pivot to them. So that they and if you did, you would have you could have the best employees in the world.

Randy Wilinski 27:52

Super loyal, super loyal when you when you give back? Absolutely. You're 100%. Right. And I'll give you a very short example. So when I worked out there, in Colorado, there was one of the leaders out there that was talking about someone and they're basically like, oh, you know, we got to clean up after the night, make sure that facilities clean floors mop, like, oh, just let so and so go. Why should we let so and so go for the night, we still have stuff? Let's do well, they're not very good at mopping. And I just don't want to pay them to do that. And I'm like, and then it got to like, well, let's train them. Let's teach them how to do it properly. So you'll be happy with it? No, I don't want to have to pay them to train them to how to do that. Like there was this expectation that they should come in and already know how to do something. And if you they didn't, it was frustration, at the very least, and they didn't want to confront them about it. And I've heard that from a lot of people. They've said, you know, we've had big impacts when I was just annoyed that they would dress this way or I was just annoyed that I hadn't even tell them, Hey, you can't show up to work late. You know, it's not cool for you to do XYZ. And I always tell people is another good example, have the conversation that if you and I are talking. It's not I'm not multiday. Ah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know why we're not doing that? Because other trainers will be oh, well, they are multitaskers. It's totally normal, you know, don't get upset about and I'm like, no, because we're humans. And so that is a feedback opportune, hey, listen, I understand. I'm that way with my phone, sometimes kind of like what you said I'm guilty of it at sometimes, too. However, it breaks the interaction, it breaks the connection. And it makes it that that's more important than what we're doing here. And I don't want you to do that with anyone you interact with, when you're interacting with them. I want you to have good responses, and just explaining that to them. And if you tell them about that, and you're like, No, I want you to do this, I'm concerned with how you do things. I'm giving you feedback because I actually care about your success. They're gonna love that and they're gonna take that versus like, you know, off your phone. So as as another fellow ones, one of the most fun trainings I ever did. So we broke up the group of managers that were these were roofers. So these were like the foremen, and then we brought everybody in later and this was so fun. And they told everybody at the meeting, they were rolling out that you had to take all your phone and put them in a box, and they were gonna lock them for the whole day. And I'm like, Ah, oh, that just hurts me, that just means there's a problem that has spiraled out of control, and you don't know what to do with it. So you have to get authoritarian about it, which is the next point, which is autonomy. You don't want to have to be where you're an authoritative person, where you're lording over someone and controlling every step of the way with their life, because they're not going to like that you need to put into your culture we're going to get worked on, and I'm going to trust you. So that's just another piece of like, you see that same thing where they're not doing it properly, they don't even know what they should be doing, they're angry that they have to have the conversation. So they come up with like, we're gonna lock it down.

Leighann Lovely 30:44

And that's the worst thing to have to do is to where management allows it to get so far out of control, that then they come in with the hardline approach of, here's what we're going to do set up the expectations in advance. You have all of your have all your employees, and then if you have one person who's a problem, then you pull them aside,

Randy Wilinski 31:09

Deal with that one.

Leighann Lovely 31:10

And deal, right. But I've seen an n, right, I've seen and talked to too many companies who were like, well, we've got one bad app, we're gonna punish everybody. I'm like, yeah, what's, yeah, you're gonna have a whole lot of pissed off people.

Randy Wilinski 31:25

Exactly, it's just a way that they can avoid dealing with that uncomfortable conversation directly. So sometimes you have to have uncomfortable conversations, you have to tell people, like you can't be doing that. And other people might have let them get away with it or might not think it's a big deal. But if you have a good reason for it, you have a compassionate, crucial conversation with them. And you come to understanding,

Leighann Lovely 31:49

Right? So I, this did not happen to me. But I was talking with a friend of mine who was managing brought in an office as they manage, they hired an office assistant there, this is their employee. And she was in charge of sitting at the front desk, and you know, doing data entries, pretty simple stuff. Not not. But she sorry, this is hard to get through without laughing. You're young girl, really smart girl, but she would bring her iPad in and watch Netflix at her at the front desk.

Randy Wilinski 32:32

Tell her like, Ah, right. Like,

Leighann Lovely 32:36

I mean, this for me would be like, what do you what are you doing? You can't watch TV. You can't watch TV at work. I mean, to have this conversation, sit down with her and be like, Yeah, you can't do that. I mean, and this person was like, Well, why not?

Randy Wilinski 33:01

Yeah. Why is he frustrating? Not only were you breaking the rules, you don't even understand why it's a problem. Right?

Leighann Lovely 33:10

And this, and again, you know, I laugh about that we laugh about this. Yeah. But this is truly a generational thing like, I can I and I, and I thought of this when you said, you know, multitasking, because there's been multiple times where I'm sitting and talking with somebody, and they have there were interviews, they were doing an interview with a phone in their hand glancing down and texting back.

Randy Wilinski 33:35

Oh my goodness, goodness.

Leighann Lovely 33:39

Right.

Randy Wilinski 33:41

See, it's funny, like somebody hasn't taught them properly. And here's, here's let me make let me get a little philosophical with you. And it's a belief. I don't know if I can 100% Prove it. But it's like, through observation, I can say that I do not have kids myself. But I have witnessed 1000s of kids interact with parents and adults. But based on what I did in Denver, because it was so much fun. We always get families in there. And so I understand, like, what kind of actions will produce what kinds of kids and resilient but one of the big things with this is, they weren't taught these things properly, because their parents were trying to be very nice. They're trying to be their friends. And back in the day, your parents weren't trying to be your friends. They weren't trying to be cool with you. They didn't maybe even care if you'd like them. They had rules and they had standards and you were going to represent the family in a certain way. So they would sit on you and be like, stand up straight, make eye contact, firm handshakes, pay attention, like they sat on and everyone's like, Oh, that's so mean. It destroys all this creativity and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's some truth of all arguments. You know, like there's a points of views that you can say, I get what you're saying, but we've lost the discipline for doing the right thing and teaching kids like No, no, this is highway is my way or the highway, you will show up on time. You You are going to follow through on this, you will do this. We're like, Oh, that's so mean, it's so authoritarian, I want my kids to love me. And you have to want them to be successful, more than you want them to love you as a parent, right? And so you want to do these things, right?

Leighann Lovely 35:15

I look back at my childhood. And there were plenty of times where I remember hating my parents, because they were on me about, you know, you need to do this, you need to do this, you have to do that. I mean, now, I grew up, I grew up as a very well adjusted woman who loves her parents, and it didn't break me it, it actually created a very, if I may say, successful woman who, for the most a wildly successful woman now. It's, you know, I'm, well, now I have a four year old, so I'm not on time, all the time, in the morning, because, you know, trying to drag a four year old out of the house sometimes is, but, you know, I have an understanding of, you know, I make my appointments on time, when I have a business meeting, I'm on time. When I, you know, my dad, when I work, you know, I put half my money in the savings and my you know, there were certain things. Yes, I just already told you. Yes, ma'am. No, sir, you know, that. Those were just things that you don't see anymore. And, you know, like for my daughter, she's four years old. She when she's on her iPad, and yes, she has, you know, her iPad that she plays, which she already knows all the technology of that, when I talked to her, and she doesn't respond, I will walk over and I will take it out of her hand. Because she's so engrossed in it, that she's not hearing me and I go up, okay. You need to remove the distraction and say, You need to listened to what I'm saying now. And then she looks at me, and she's like, I want my iPad back. And I'm like, then you need to hear me. And you do what I'm telling you to do. And let me tell you, she'll do that right away, because she wants her iPad back.

Randy Wilinski 37:06

Well, and so what's cool about like, she say, the iPad, we had Sesame Street, right, we had things that we'd watch on TV. So we're definitely I'm sure that the older generations are like, I would have been playing with a wooden toy. And I'd have been figuring stuff out and you stupid kids are in front of these screens, you know, so there's always like a thing, right? And now we owe these kids, they shouldn't be doing that. Well, the good side is you can make high touch high interactive, very smart things on an iPad, that are really cool and good for them. As long as you have some sort of balance and moderation. And it's not their digital babysitter all the time. Yeah, I see that. And I understand screaming kids, I've been around and I'm like, oh, man, if I could just get them to stop and I got five minutes to breathe. I'll do anything. Totally, totally get it. But you also have to have like, what you're saying is like, the device isn't more important than the human interaction, you can't be so engrossed by it, that you don't even know what's going on around you. You have to be sometimes meaning. And it's mean with love. It's actually talking about this. And Jeff talks about this, because he's all of his kids are millennials. And he's like, I kind of look sometimes the millennials, a little bit like they're my kids, because all my kids are millennials. So I understand it. It's that tough love. And we don't like the word tough love, because we envision just angry parents spanking, but tough love is I actually care so much about you that I'm willing to risk our relationship to do what's right a little bit, or I'm willing to push back and make it and that's what a good parent is going to do. That's what a good boss is going to do. Like, I care about you. So I'm not doing this for my own selfish reasons, because I don't care about you. And I just want you to get it done. And I want you to make my life easier, even though sometimes there could be things like that at play for everybody involved, because we're humans. But if they know you care about them, and you set something up, and you've built that credit with them, that they know this, they will respect you, which is also what kids have to do with their parents. Like that's good management, good leadership, right? You want to have respect, with compassion, you want to have discipline with grace, like it's both. It's never one or the other. And a lot of people are just comfortable operating. And either let's ignore everything until I'm so angry. I can't, or let's be these like dictators on the rules on running. I'm running a military operation with my employees to do as I say now, because I said it. That's even a quote we put in there. There's a so for autonomy. I have a quote from Patton. And it's roughly if I don't remember, but it's like, don't tell people how to do things exactly how to do them. Tell them what you want done, and let them surprise you with their ingenuity. Patton said that they get how old that quote is. And it's 100% True. It's more true today than ever. Tell me what you want to get done. Give me some guardrails. Now, some people are like, well, problem with millennials. younger people, they want to color all over, they want to do things anyway, they want to do them. And like, we've got some rules here that are hard and fast. And so that's an expectations. That's a boundary conversation you have to have with those people. Why are we doing it only this way for this? And then where are the areas that you can have autonomy, you can have those differences. So yeah, but you're right. Why have these lacked? Why have these gotten lost? It is, in my roughest assessment that parents don't want to be mean, they want to be liked by their kids, they wish they had a little more loving relationship, maybe with their parents, they wish they weren't forced to do these things. But then they don't realize why will they never enforce those things. They never had those expectations. So then their kids annoy them, because technically, that is their own internal standard, but they're not projecting it and putting it on them like they may be.

Leighann Lovely 40:52

And I go back to a story that I remember I was probably about, I would say was 22 years old, I 20, maybe 23, it doesn't matter. I was working with a an older woman who had think she had like six or seven grown children. Okay, um, the most of them are girl, the baby that the baby of the family that she had, I think was around 15 or 16 years old. And I remember her telling me a story about how they were struggling with her. And she was you know, she was skipping school, she was doing all these things, and they were trying to work with her and and force her to go to school. And this 16 year old or 15 year old came back to them and said, There's nothing you can do about it. Because if you try to make me to go to school, I'll tell them that you're beating me. And I went, wait.

Randy Wilinski 41:43

Clear a spot for me, well, I'll just beat you instead.

Leighann Lovely 41:44

Right? And I kind of went, Oh, wow. Okay, that puts a whole new spin on discipline. Huh?

Randy Wilinski 41:56

Yeah, so now we're talking about a societal problem and societal norm. Because if you went back 50 years, not only what your parents beat you, but every other adult that saw you missed it. We're okay with it.

Leighann Lovely 42:11

And I go back to the story, because we as a society has it things have definitely flipped on their head. And I'm not saying that every kid is you know, pulling the, you know, a lie. And I'll tell everybody, but I think that parents have lost a little bit of that one. If you tell it you know, your your friends, oh, I spanked my kid, you get that look, have you spank to your kid? Yeah, horrible. How dare you. But there are times that warrant a absolutely heavy hand of you know, my daughter was doing something that was putting her her in harm's way. And when I was trying to adjust her, or trying to adjust the behavior, she wasn't listening. And I'm not saying that I spanked her. But it took a little bit more than just, Hey, honey, don't do that. It took a you know, much more aggressive approach, because she was about to, you know, break her arm kind of situation.

Randy Wilinski 43:14

Yeah, absolutely. How are you going to negotiate with someone negotiate with a four year old right or, like something they have no concept over.

Leighann Lovely 43:22

So but I think that there has become a time and I'm not just speaking to parenting, I'm speaking also to the workforce where people have become so so happy people have become so. So you know, you can't you know, do this, or you can't do that. Because if you discipline them the wrong way, there is a possibility that this person could come, you know, back with a lawsuit. And I think that because the world, you know, has, I think it's settled down a little bit. But there was a time period that, you know, HR took a shift and kind of went, Oh, crap, we need to really be careful with every conversation we have. An HR really should be part of that conversation, if you're going to be disciplining somebody or doing some training with somebody because we don't want to get sued. And I think part of you know, part of that makes some of it. And, you know, the we'll just do the blanket approach so that we're treating everybody the same lockup, all the funds, then we're not just discriminating, then. Correct. And I, unfortunately, that is just part of the way that things have shifted, because we became a Sue happy society. Yeah, and everybody is afraid to death to get sued or to get or to be accused of discrimination because one person was, you know, on their phone at you know, at their job all day, and now Oh, you're picking on me? Well, I'm gonna sue you because you took my phone away because I was breaking the rules and you know, and of course it It's not that person's fault. It's the job that they're, it's their fault.

Randy Wilinski 45:05

We definitely have reversed that. Just to touch on that. And please continue. But this idea of personal responsibility, and what I brought to it and what how I created the problem, there's a lot of this, this is what you this is your responsibility, I'm not responsible for my own actions, you're responsible, you should have been doing something different. So I didn't do that, that goes into all kinds of suing things where people really do for that, but you're the one who did it stupid. No, they shouldn't have even given me the opportunity where that gonna happen. So I'm right there with you, we got a societal problem that you have to deal with.

Leighann Lovely 45:41

Right? I mean, it goes all the way down to, you know, I have a an employee scheduled for an interview, and they don't show up. And then when they want to reschedule a, well, they are not going to hire me because I'm a woman, or they're not, they're not interested in me, because I'm XYZ or whatever it might be. And it's like, Wait, what was it that they missed the appointment? It has nothing to do with the fact that you know, showed your interview, it now has to do with the fact that you're, you know, it's like, what? How are you avoiding personal, you know, avoiding the personal responsibility of no showing an interview, or, you know, showing up to your first day of work, and no calling no showing, but now, it's now it's the jobs or the company. That's discriminating against you because of XYZ. It's like, yeah, so and I see that constantly. Yes, constantly. Because, again, I'm in you know, my day job is in staffing. So, you know, and I don't want to take the cynical approach, I still I'm a true optimist, I still see people for, you know, the good. And I don't know how I continue to do that, after 17 years in this industry, but I do I truly do. I, I try to find the good in people, no matter no matter what. But there is definitely I mean, part of that is, and unfortunately, because of that shift, we as parents, and it comes down to that we as parents have those fears. So we've raised our children that way. And now, our children, or the you know, the new the youngest working, they just continue to perpetuates these behaviors. And, you know, in order to fix that, they're going to have to learn from the generation before them, which is always what happens, right?

Randy Wilinski 47:42

100%, you brought up some great points that like, the problem is so big in society, it's like we neither you nor I are going to be able to solve it. ourselves, the only thing we can do is that everybody we interact with we either we either explain, we preach about it, we bring out information to inform people, we talk about it, and we start conversations, the best we can do is making an adjustment with the people around us because it is a big thing, there's a been a big shift, and it creates obvious problems. And you, you some it gets to the point where people want to argue about everything being relative, and it's kind of this and that and oh, well, just this or you know, and we even talk about this and this, you know, you can go back to like we have a quote of I think it was Socrates or somebody pretending to be Socrates in a play. But you know, it's like from BC about how they know this generation is terrible. And they don't respect their elders, and they're lazy and like, it's been going on that friction in generations for a long time. But if you just look at it and reality, if you see some of these these end, things that are happening, you can say there's nothing good about that. There's nothing good about people making up frivolous lawsuits, there's nothing good about a daughter threatening a loving mom or dad that they're going to lie about them. Like there's nothing good about that ever, any time. And so we have to have very candid, very compassionate to things you always have to document because the reality of society is people are taking less and less personal responsibility. And and they put so much onus on employers to prove that they did everything possible. If you're a good employer, you did do everything possible. And you should be able to document that. If you're a good manager, you should be able to document that you gave this person every possible chance, and it just wasn't going to happen. And then if you personally show them that you care and you do really try your best, you're going to mitigate those things. You can't completely eliminate them. You got to do your best. It's a sad reality. Because in other cultures and other countries even today, and other times in history, it would never be thought of but then you also had people and it still happens today and it flies under the radar that people do discriminate for a variety of reasons like again, like not that they're specifically They picking on him, but they don't want to invest in them. They don't want to train them. They didn't like the way they did something they want to get rid of them. Well, that's not really fair either. So we just have a lot of stuff that we have to figure out. And that's where, again, conversations like this, when you go in and work with people and one on one when you work with those candidates, and you're the neutral recruiter, and you could say, no, no, they didn't discriminate against you, when you don't show up. It looks really bad. It doesn't matter who you are. That's gonna they don't want to deal with because that's your first impression. Number one first impressions used to be like you drilled in that you make a good first impression. Now, you know, you're gonna get another interview, if you screw up a first impression. Well, no, I think they don't like this. Why would they have given you an interview in the first place? Right? Like, this is illogical. This is nonsense. So take some personal responsibility, you know, maybe, maybe you maybe you also agree, like, I don't want to put this person in front of someone, because that's going to make me look bad. But maybe you said, You know what, I genuinely believe that something happens, they don't know you well enough. I know you better, I'm going to put you in front of a different whatever. However, if you like, you fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice. Like if it happens again, then we're done. Because you can't make me look foolish twice. I'm not going to allow it and you have to have maybe that level of candid thing like there are real consequences to this. And then they'll probably if they do it, then they'll go shit, they won't even abide.

Leighann Lovely 51:23

And I'm I am. All my listeners know that I am a true believer that life happens and life is messy. Things come up like kids get sick. Flat tires do actually happen. Not nearly as much as you know, I've heard and people have claimed but you better off let the air out of your tires make it good. Believe you mean flat tires do happen cars break down family members gets sick emergencies come up constantly. I you know, I have emergencies all the time in my feed the point, right, it's a fact of life, I am a true believer that we cannot separate work and life all the time there. There are times when they blend together. I get it, I understand it and compassionate about it. What I do not accept is that you cannot show up without some explanation prior to that. We carry as you have been talking about a a piece of you know, machinery and machinery a high tech computer. Yeah, in our pocket. Everywhere we go. So in this day and age, there is no possibility no excuse. And using Oh, my cell phone was dead. How often is your cell phone die? I mean, I don't think I'm pretty sure my cell phone has not died on me. In fact, I know my cell phone has not died on me in years. Yes. Because now I have a charger in my car. I have a charger at work. I have a charger. They now have, you know, banks

Randy Wilinski 53:17

to plug into. All right.

Leighann Lovely 53:19

So the excuse I'm so sorry, my cell phone was dead. Yes. It's just not. It's just not realistic.

Randy Wilinski 53:27

You're not a very good planner is what it sounds like no. Plan, no backup plan. No. Okay. But if that would even if that were true, it would say something negative about you.

Leighann Lovely 53:39

I mean, you can now go to a brewers game. And if you need to, you can pay to charge it at a birthday. I mean, so anyways, we are coming to time. Okay. Oh, I would love to ask you the question of the season. All right. It didn't land on me. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Randy Wilinski 54:10

Such a great question. I think people always have their like, I live with no regrets. I wouldn't go back and change anything. I think I could pick a ton of great things that I would go back. You know, I would love to be a time traveler and be like, hey, actually, I loved that for myself. But I could think of a few things that stood out that I have said before. I would say a couple of things in high school in college. I think in general a lot of things. The level. I went to a very nice high school but it wasn't that hard for me. If I showed up to class I could get by I could remember things. If I took notes, I will remember it. But I was like man, I was in school. I didn't really have anything else that was like absolutely had to do. There was a lot of people and a lot of knowledge and I think I I could have done even better than what I did. Like it was already easy for me. So I wasn't trying as hard. I'm like, but there was opportunity. If I was more disciplined, if I was a little more, I could have taken everything possible and squeezed it out of that. And even like, you know, like a slingshot, I could have pulled back leaned into, it's super hard and flung even further and faster forward. So that's one thing. That's something that it's just like, if there was opportunity, there was more opportunity, I could have squeezed out of that situation. And that's one if I can get to, I also think about it a lot. That even though like I was being a very millennial at that point that I left that job, because of that guy had this amazing experience, life changing, I built great friends in Denver, I would have done a little different, I would have stayed maybe another year, year and a half, I would have jumped that rung, but they were already like, I can't believe you're leaving, like we were just gonna promote you, like I would have got promoted that next level, I would have experienced a few kind of cool things in corporate, that would have been very good for my development. And then I would have probably left a year or two later. And then I would have went out to Colorado because I had such a great experience. I met so many great people. But then I ultimately didn't completely follow through with that I shouldn't say fell through. But like I wanted to do, you know, family businesses are tough. And people have different visions, and they have different things. So I'm like, I really enjoyed my experience out there. But it was never also going to be mine. I thought, Oh, this is gonna be mine. I'm going to take this over. And it's like, no, the entrepreneur who started it really wanted to keep it going that way, didn't want to give me as a millennial as much autonomy. So I'm like, Man, I love the experience. But it didn't go as I thought, and I came back to Wisconsin, anyway, why did I ever leave, but I was like, I can't trade that because I have, I have lifelong friendships from that. I have totally different experiences, I loved being out there. So I had to do it, I just want to change the time. And again, that would have been just a little better for everything in my belief, but who knows, maybe that would have ruined everything. It's like the butterfly effect. I don't know, maybe it would have destroyed everything, and everything happened the way it was supposed to. I hope that that's true.

Leighann Lovely 57:04

I truly do believe that everything happens the way that it's supposed to. And, again, I would love to be able to go back and whisper in my own ear about like, hey, it's gonna be all right, you're gonna get through this. But I'm one of those people that all of the the pains and all of the tribal triumphs that I went through have built me up to be who I am today. And I yeah, I don't know that I would change anything. And I've, I've had a rocky, I've had a rocky road. You know, most roads that are worth listening to have a lot of twists, and turns and some tears and some, you know, scream out loud, jump up down triumphs. So yeah, but thank you,

Randy Wilinski 58:00

I'm 100% with you on that. I love that you look at it that way. That really is how I look at it. And what I tell people all the time, it's like you need those bad things to give you perspective. And to appreciate the really good, you needed those hard times that fire to forge your character. Those are so important that you think you can take those out and maybe even as a parenting thing, just to wrap up the conversation we had from before. I'm going to remove all the obstacles for my kids. You create weak kids because they didn't have any adversity, because they didn't have those struggles because they didn't have those tough times because you wanted to make everything perfect. Well, how can you not create a less resilient population a less resilient group of kids, if you give them no hardships to struggle against struggle, hardships, pain, those are usually good for you. And I would say that the easy thing is if it doesn't break you and completely destroy you, but it's right up to that edge. You're gonna be really strong and be capable of doing so much more in the future. So don't shy away from those. Those dark parts of your past don't shy away from those hard times. Right because those forge character.

Leighann Lovely 59:09

You want to know how I learned that I could not fly.

Randy Wilinski 59:12

Jumping off your roof of your house with a cape. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 59:15

Well, something similar to that. You remember the what is that rocket right? You sit on somebody's feet and they shoot you into the air?

Randy Wilinski 59:23

Rocket, ride? Yeah, okay, okay. Oh, you like you're laying and they like shoot you up and something like that

Leighann Lovely 59:28

tell you they're laying down. You sit on your feet and then they shoot you up. Okay, all right. A rocket ride. I learned that I could not fly I broke my arm. Let me tell you, I never tried to fly again. Those are the moments you know when you it hurt like hell. Yeah, but you know what, I'll never try to fly again.

Randy Wilinski 59:52

You'll never do something foolish like that. Because you have wisdom more experience. You know the threshold of your body? No A little bit more.

Leighann Lovely 1:00:01

If you if you wrap your kids in bubble wrap and send them out to the world, eventually they're going to grow up and they're going to be out in the world on their own, no longer wrapped in bubble wrap, it is going to be a hell of a lot harder for them to figure things out.

Randy Wilinski 1:00:18

Exactly. I tell him this, you can either be tough on your kids, or you can let the world be tough on right, you can let them struggle and Flounder and hit their head against and get discouraged. Or you can provide opportunities for them to grow. You can't do both. You can't be super nice, wrap them in bubble wrap. And pretend like that's what the world is like, because all that bubble wrap is gonna get popped,

Leighann Lovely 1:00:39

right? And think, think about their mental health. Yes, when they are out in the world on their own it I mean, they're going to be beat to shit in that first couple of years. And they're probably going to come running home to mommy and daddy going. I'm really depressed. I'm really sad.

Randy Wilinski 1:01:00

That's Yes, yeah. Geez, we could have we could have, we should have a whole other conversation to about just even the mental health crisis. Because when I do, yes, we have three programs on this. And one of this is a generation when we were talking a little bit about, I have that millennial one and then we have one of millennials and Gen z's. And there's a lot of things in there that statistically are going on right now. Like there should be every opportunity in the world. But But depression and and people medicating and things like that and feeling unfulfilled, like that's at an all time high. Even other countries in poor countries, people in younger generations aren't aren't experiencing this, what we're experienced from this, like access and from opportunity, but also what we've been told. And I think a lot of times younger generations have been told a lie, which is you can be do or have whatever you want for existence. And you you cannot, you can work really hard at something, you can have natural abilities that lend to that you can have experiences that make you perfect, and you can go out you can be happy, but it's not going to come chase you down really is not going to make it happen without you making it happen.

Leighann Lovely 1:02:09

You are not entitled to anything. reach it. It's in that the it's the entitlement generation. It's the well I exist on this planet for the world to give me something. No you don't. You are not entitled to anything. You need to get off your ass and make it happen yourself. And I am. I am so sick and tired of people like well, I mean, I went to college. Okay, did you have a job? Well, no, I'm trying to get my first job. Yeah, you're how old? You're 20 you're 24 I'm sorry. You've never had a job. I started my first job when I was like 11 or 12. No, exactly. Exactly. So okay, we could go on for another

Randy Wilinski 1:02:54

week. You will our right.

Leighann Lovely 1:02:58

But since we are a time if somebody wanted to reach out, contact you, how would they go about doing that? Randy?

Randy Wilinski 1:03:05

I think one of the best ways unless you always get to see a content you get to know me a little bit more. I love Instagram is one of my favorite LinkedIn as my other favorite, both of those at Randy wilensky, you can find me there aren't that many of us out here, easy to find, would love to connect with you. I do have a website, Randy belinsky.com. But I always love if we can get an interaction where you get to see a little bit of what I'm up to what I believe in Instagram or, again, LinkedIn, great ways to connect with love to have a conversation, love meeting new people figuring out what they've got going on. So hit me up on that.

Leighann Lovely 1:03:39

Awesome. Hey, this has been such an amazing conversation. I love just to have an awesome, great conversations with brilliant, intelligent people. So, Randy, it's been awesome. Thank you so much for joining me.

Randy Wilinski 1:03:55

I appreciate this opportunity. I appreciate you. I can't wait to have another conversation with you. I look forward to the future.

Leighann Lovely 1:04:03

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Linkedin – linkedin.com/in/randywilinski

Instagram – https://instagram.com/randywilinski?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

E-mail - rwilinski@fourevamedia.com

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people, work, conversation, millennials, parents, kids, problem, employees, talking, randy, younger, cussed, phone, generation, opportunity, person, struggle, hard, world, understand

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What an amazing conversation with Barb Waala! Barb is a Coach who provides strategic support and accountability to help those clarify, pursue, and achieve their life and business goals. Those in HR and Staffing often take for granted how hard it truly can be to figure out, what you want to be when you grow up and then how to pursue those dreams. Barb found her passion for helping those looking for guidance and support.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Barb Waala is an entrepreneur, wife, mom and grandma, who has made a career out of helping others with their careers. After a career in corporate HR, she decided to turn her helping into a business starting part time, January 2019. And then leaving her corporate position. And starting full time, September of 2019. She has learned more in the last three years than she did in the 30 years prior.

Leighann Lovely 01:38

Barb, I am so excited to have you on today. Thank you for joining me.

Barb Waala 01:42

I am so happy to be here.

Leighann Lovely 01:45

So why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself.

Barb Waala 01:48

Okay. I always love starting with us. I am a mom. I'm a grandma, which I'm going to put like I should have said that first because that seems higher priority right now. He's nine months old. I have been married to the same man for 35 years, which I see is a great accomplishment. I have been in HR for years and years was corporate HR manager. And three years ago, almost to the day, I decided to open my own business and use all of the knowledge that I had learned over the years to help people trying to find a job. How, you know, why can't I get the interview? Why isn't anyone looking at my resume? So that is my joy to try to help people figure that out and and find their career find their home? That's awesome. So

Leighann Lovely 02:40

I have a couple of things to congratulate you on first being married to the same individual for you said 35 years.

Barb Waala 02:48

Yeah, I'd like to tell everyone I was 14. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 02:51

Okay. As long as you say he was 14, too, because if you say he was older, then it gets weird. But yes.

Barb Waala 02:59

That is true. I was only 21. But you know,

Leighann Lovely 03:03

you're still a baby at 21. You know, you get to an age where you realize 21 You're still a baby?

Barb Waala 03:07

Oh, my goodness. Yes.

Leighann Lovely 03:10

Well congratulate congratulations on that. Because that is that. It's unfortunate, but it is a rarity to have been with the same and be married for 35 years. So congratulations on that. Congratulations for being a grandma to a nine month old. Is that your first grandchild? Yes.

Barb Waala 03:31

Okay, you know, because I'm so over the top. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 03:35

Well, that's amazing. Congratulations on that. So do you do you have one child? You know, how are you a mother too? How many?

Barb Waala 03:44

Hey, see, look, oh, I forgot about my children once I had a grandchild. So we were just blessed with two. So we have our daughter who is the oldest and she is the one that gave us baby Theo, while she and her husband, and then have a son who actually just got married. It'll be three weeks. So he and his new bride. Yep.

Leighann Lovely 04:06

Wow. So congratulations on having another child basically entering into the families, you've got a lot to celebrate. Wow. And then another Congratulations on making it three years as a business owner and you know, entrepreneurs. So you've got a lot of stuff going a lot of a lot of celebration.

Barb Waala 04:27

Yeah, I feel very, very fortunate. Because when I used to work with financial representatives and hire them for their careers, I would always tell them that three years was the magic Mark, if you could make it three years because they were building their businesses, their book of business, whatever it was, you're good, you're golden, you're good to go. So I have to remind myself that I'm good now. Right? I'm good to go.

Leighann Lovely 04:49

Right. And you know, I'm training a new employee right now and I keep reminding her that you know, it's in the beginning it's going to be and again, this is in my profession. In all this, you know, this is my podcast, my side hustle. But in my professional career, I always have to remind her that it's going to be tough it's going to be, you're going to have really bad days you're going to but if you can make it through until you have that first really awesome win, and you feel that, especially in the staffing industry, it gets to be those heavy days where you like, oh my gosh, like, I just can't make anything work sometimes. But you're right for the financial industry? I would not, I wouldn't make it in that. No. I don't know how I've made it in the HR industry, though.

Barb Waala 05:41

Right? See, I HR is not what I planned for my life, but it's where I landed. And now I totally can't imagine myself doing anything else. Um, but yeah, that was not, you know, when I was 16 1718, trying to figure out what to go to school for HR was not on the list at all?

Leighann Lovely 06:00

Nope. No, I was what I was going to be an accountant than I was going to be a computer programmer. And I never and I figured after I made it through 2008. I was in it for life.

Barb Waala 06:14

Right? Oh, and the thing was, I didn't even know how bad it was, like, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't have a lot to compare it to. But yeah, you're right, you make it through that and but going through 2021. And currently, recruiting and hiring people, is has been interesting as well. So because I still do that not only do I help individuals, one on one, I've been fortunate enough to be able to continue to have contracts with small employers. So I still get to look at resumes, which I know that helps me with my one on one coaching. But boy, it's tough to find good employees right now.

Leighann Lovely 06:55

So let's, let's talk about that. Okay. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, your, the one on one coaching that you do, but you your business is is BW, executive coach LLC. And tell me a little bit about, you know, what you do and how you help individuals.

Barb Waala 07:21

So I have two sides to the business. So I tend to call myself a career journey coach, because I do help people professionally. So I have three clients that I work with that I helped fill roles that they have, I do all their recruiting for them from sourcing candidates to interviewing them, you know, in that whole gamut, which is what I've done for years. But then I also, which will, I will say this is my favorite part, I get to do the one on one coaching. And I always start the one on one coaching. And I know people don't like the assessments and the tools and all those things. But I start with those. Normally, we don't talk a lot about them during the one on one coaching, oh, email a little bit about him. But I always want to use them one on one coaching for like literally talking about what it is that they want to do. Make sure that they're following what they really want to be doing. What I have been finding is that I have had three younger gentlemen in a row, that find themselves in a transition where they don't like what they're doing, and they want to do something else. And when it comes down to it, they are doing what their family wants them to be doing. They are doing, like one of the gentlemen he's into photography and videography, and his parents, accountants, teachers. That's what they wanted him to do. So master's degree, worked in a law office miserable, just miserable. So I just helped, you know, get some clarity around what they feel like their purposes and then work with them on that. And if that involves redoing your resume and helping you on LinkedIn, and networking and interviewing, if you don't have the interviewing skills than than that as well, but the one on one coaching ends up being confidence building is what I normally find. And I, I just really, really enjoy it because I help people see the things that are already there that are already in them. And they know that it's in there, but they just haven't used it for so long or just are afraid to use it because that that old place is comfortable. So

Leighann Lovely 09:41

Right. And you know, it's it's so natural for somebody who has spent a career in recruiting and retention and employee relations to fall into that or not, I shouldn't say fall because it's not like you can just fall in and be perfect. It's a lot of work but you You know, become an entrepreneur, like yourself in coaching individuals. So AKA, fall into the coaching. Like, I'm not trying to belittle that, and make it sound like it's easy. But um, but to end up in, you know, on the path that you're in, because, you know, I get those all the time, somebody will come to me and say, you know, I have a niece or a nephew who don't know, or I have a son or a daughter who don't know what they want to be when they grow up, will you talk to them? And I'm like, sure, I absolutely can talk to him, I can talk to him about what they've done in the past, I can talk to them about where they see themselves in the future. But in order for you, that's not how I'm paid. You know, I can do it as a courtesy to people in my network, friends of mine. But there's only so much that I can do if I'm not actually spending a lot of time with this individual. I couldn't lay out the way the world is the way the world works, and, but for somebody to finally really get there on what they want to be when they grow up, you have to you got to figure out what, you know, what's wrong with what they're doing now? What do they like? And what they don't like? Where do they see themselves? And where do they see themselves in five years? Where do they not see themselves? You know, all of those all the ins and outs of those. So, you know, your your progression, your path that you have found yourself on is? I think it's it's a very natural, it makes sense as to how you how you've ended up where you are now, it's, and again, I'm not minimizing it is not for the faint of heart. Entrepreneurship is not easy. I work for another business. I am not, you know, I love to talk to entrepreneurs and dream about one day maybe doing that. But so you had made a comment about, you know, obviously, with the pandemic, the onset of the pandemic, it's been tough, there's been changes. And with that, we have seen individuals more than ever decide, I don't want to be a lawyer, or I don't want to be an accountant, or I don't want to do what mommy and daddy always envisioned me doing. I want to do what I want to do. Do you think that a lot more people are finally deciding that because they've either had the time to sit around and realize I'm not happy? Or because it's just the shift that the world? You know, it's just what is happening in the world?

Barb Waala 12:42

Yeah, well, I think that unfortunately, all of us had like a little smack in the face of people were dying. And if this happens to me, is this. What I'm doing right now, does this matter? Does this matter to my family? Does this am I making an impact? You know, in my community, or in people just, yeah, they're just seeing things differently. And it's, that's been fantastic, I think, because people are being more intentional. And I love that, I want you to be more intentional. Think of how many hours you spend, you know, in your career, in your work day, do something that you love to be doing, because that's a horrible situation to be in, because I've been there where you're in a toxic work environment and the world around you isn't great. And let's just take a step back and see what I can do to make myself happier, make my family happier, you know, so? Yeah, it's been a lot of that and, and what you spoke up with the helping the niece and nephew, and can you help me, that is exactly how I got into this. You like set up? Because, you know, when someone's like, Can you just help me with my resume? And I did it for years. And then I started just charging a little bit. And then I was like, You know what, I think this needs to be my career. So.

Leighann Lovely 14:08

Right. And because of the because of the position that you held because of correct, because the respect that people had for you in your network, you found people more and more people are coming to Hey, yeah, and again, you, like me are the kind of person that's if, hey, I'll extend an olive branch, but there's only so far that you can meet. There's only so far I can take that where I go, Okay, well, this isn't for me revenue generating unless you want me to find you a job through my you know, company, you know. Now there have been times where I've said, I am more than willing to be your mentor. But you have to take the initiative, the young generation, however, they don't take the initiative. I have started to realize that I have said to multi Well, people, if you would like to regularly call me as you're working through this, call me. They never call back.

Barb Waala 15:07

No, they don't. Why would they Tech with? Yeah, would they text you? They don't want to call big fear.

Leighann Lovely 15:15

But even even the text message, you know, I'll have a an hour long conversation with somebody go through their resume, talk to them about what they said, Hey, do you have any other questions? I'm always available to talk to you. Do you think that? Why do you think that is in the younger? If, in my younger days, somebody would have offered that to me? I would have been all over that.

Barb Waala 15:40

Yeah. I. So I'm, I'm not a boomer. I'm very close to being a boomer, but I'm not there. So I'm the Gen X. I don't understand the disease, that all Millennials I can understand. So like the younger millennials, I just had this conversation with one of our friends. And I said, they were just asking about the market. And if you look at the numbers, two to 3 million people took early retirement with COVID. And we knew that that was going to happen a little bit later, though, years down the line, because you could look at the boomers and you were like, how are we ever going to replace the works force with what we're going to lose? Well, it happened earlier. And now we're still down a million. And people are like, what's going to happen where, and I think to myself, we didn't birth enough babies to just have, you know, cover it, right. So that's just, that's just the fact of life. And and this new generation where they want to be on YouTube making money or influencers, or they sell a product, or whatever it is, and they don't want to go to work to, you know, they don't want to go into a retail store. I mean, I think back to when I first did get married at 21. And I worked full time at a bank and part time at a retail store. And I just can't imagine, and I know that's I don't want to make a blanket statement ever. Because there are people out there young people who do want to go to college and have that, you know, nine to five job with flexibility, potentially working from home, because people see you know how good that is. I don't know about the returning calls. Or, you know, when I'm interviewing someone, and I think they're such a great candidate. And they're 20. And one of the companies I work for, he's a distributor, so I need truck drivers and merchandisers and things like that. And these are great jobs for someone who is just starting out, and they don't want to go to tech school or to college. And I think I have this great conversation. And they don't show up for the face to face interview, or they don't. And that just didn't happen. 20 years ago, when I was recruiting, it just did not. And somewhere we failed to teach. These young people just come and respect. It is just really how how do you not show someone respect someone like you who took an hour to talk with them? And yes, I will do all these things. And then you hear nothing? Yeah, so it's I wish I could figure it out. Because I think if I could figure it out, I'd make a lot of money. Because it's the question everybody's asking me. Right?

Leighann Lovely 18:47

Well, and I, you know, there was a time that the only way that you could communicate with somebody was through a phone that was hanging on the wall. And I'm old enough to remember that. You know, the generation that exists now, they never experienced that unless their grandparents still have a phone hanging on the wall. And even the majority of grandparents do not have phones hanging I pretty sure that no, I mean, even my grandma and my grandpa, Pa eliminated phones, they no longer had a house line. They even they even then went to cell phones. So I'm quite certain that the younger generation do not remember a phone hanging on the wall. But there was a time that that was the only way to communicate quickly or write a letter. And you know, I their email was not a quick way because you still have to go home and then have your phone dial up.

Barb Waala 19:54

All that noise just as you're saying and I'm like, I can hear it in my head.

Leighann Lovely 20:00

Right, right? And then and then get access to your email. So you weren't actively and I didn't have my first cell phone until I was 18. And you weren't text messaging, because you know, you had to hit, you know, the 123 button like three or four times to get, you know.

Barb Waala 20:27

And you couldn't afford it because you had limited data.

Leighann Lovely 20:31

Correct. I mean, it was like cap your data, like, I text like, five, or what I had, like 30 text messages a month or something. And then if I went over, so there was, I don't know that it was respect, it was it was more like, well, I have to go here to talk to this person, or I need to call them and tell them. And so it was more of a ingrained. Like this is the way that the world communicates. Now we have a generation that's coming up, and the way that they have learned to communicate is through. Hey, how are you doing?

Leighann Lovely 21:09

Good? Well, okay, good. What do you mean? What do you what does that mean? You're, you're, you're good. Like, you're anything else you want to you want to write and you have collaborates? Right, and you have, and I'm guilty of this, I'm sitting in my lower level, my husband's on the upper level, and I'll text him and be like, hey, what do you wanna do for dinner? I am guilty of that. Okay, it's sometimes I don't feel like getting up and running upstairs and having a discussion. But you have people sitting in the same room texting each other. And it's like, okay, wait, this is not a form of communication in my household, there is no technology at the dinner table. You know, so we have, as a society, lost the human, I guess, that human side of communication. And a generation has come up living in technology in a way that is a little different for me, for you, for anybody who's of the generation that grew up with dial up and phones hanging on a wall. So I guess maybe along with that, some of the respect and some of the etiquette. And speaking of etiquette, I read a book on etiquette growing up, when you get a president, you write a thank you note? Yes. That's, I'm quite certain that that is just not the way that these younger generations thing. And you can't criticize if they've never been taught. Right. And that's the difficult thing for, for people in our position, right.

Barb Waala 22:56

And, that's why I said, I feel like we failed them. And I said it that way, because how did you learn the etiquette and to write the thank you so much. You know, like my mom, it was, ironically, my son in law's mom, when the her kids were little, they had to write thank yous before they can play with the gift. So she would like they get their birthday presents, they would be lined up, and then they had to write a thank you. And if they wrote that, thank you, they could have that gift. So of course, my son in law at the time, he would write thank you for that one gift, and then he played with it for a while. That'd be like, Okay, I'm bored. I think I need to read a thank you for the next one. Right. So I can have that. But you know, what, who who did that? It was you know, so that's why somewhere along the line, that respect of someone has done something for you, you need to, you know, show them the respect and and then I don't know, it's, yeah, right. Are they getting? Are they getting unemployment? Are they still living at home and their parents aren't making them pay for things? I don't know. Because I would have at at 2021 I would have needed to have money to pay for things. So.

Leighann Lovely 24:14

And that's another thing is that there was no free ride. And if at all, I mean, starting from the day that I could go to work. And I started working when I was like, I don't know, like 12 Maybe, yeah, about 12 I was mowing three lawns. I was getting a paycheck, not a paycheck, you know, cash, my dad would take that money from me, he would put half of it in my bank account, which I did not have access to. And he would give me the other half and I could spend that money or I could save that money. Then then as I got older, I would get a paycheck from you know, when I turned 15 or whatever the age is 16 when you can actually work and I would be required to put half of that in my bank. could count, and I could have the other half. And I got a job as soon as I could get a job. I mean, there was no, oh, you don't have to work until you go to college or you don't have to work through college, I'll pay for everything. Where's the workout sick? Right? Where's the responsibility? And I will tell you that when I look at resumes, of people who have never worked a day in their life until they graduated with a degree I go, Wait, what was? What do you mean? You've never, you've never worked? Not one job? How am I going to pitch you with a degree, but you've never walked into an office environment and worked a day in your life? Yeah. I mean, again, this is not their fault. How do we blame that person? If that's the way they were raised? Right. And this is the generation that we are raising. So it's an interesting conundrum. We've gone on a tangent. So let's go back to you. Let's talk about your let's talk about your coaching. So tell me about some of the individuals, you know, what did they come to you with? What are they looking for? Help with? You know, you kind of talked about one individual? How do you help them find their path?

Barb Waala 26:24

Yeah. So just continue with that gentleman. The, the one that worked in the lawyer's office for so long, so his, he's extremely creative. So yeah, he has his master's degree, and he can be very organized, but he loves to do photography, he paints, like, you know, beautiful paintings and does drone footage. So he does the videography, and just very creative, which is the total opposite of sitting in a lawyer's office, you know, doing work together, putting, putting, you know, doing paralegal work, doing just a host of things. So anyway, I worked with him for months for him just to see that what he is passionate about, he can make money doing. So I've been fortunate enough to have the networking group that I do, so I could set him up with someone who has her own art studio, and how did she, how did she take those paintings that she had? And how is she making a living, and someone who does videography, and now he actually has his own studio, and he does videos for entrepreneurs and different things like that. But it started out different and how, you know, how did that go, and he does drone things in different. So I can't speak to it, I can't tell you how to because no one would want to purchase anything that I paint. But um, I, you know, have had the opportunity to meet these people so I can connect them. And, you know, slowly he was getting into his stuff is getting into art galleries, and he's setting stuff up at festivals. And somebody asked for something and realized, it's just little bits, and he's making money to does he maybe need to go get a part time job to help, you know, to have a little bit of a cushion, probably. But choose where you want to have that part time job. So is that part time job in the studio, you know, making enough so that you can make your mortgage payments and all the things because I never want someone to be foolish. Unfortunately, the job that he had, I wouldn't say he was terminated. They they did a big change. And he knew it was time to go. So he kind of left before he was it was a host of different things. But so it just gave him the opportunity to like either, are you going to go back into it just so that you're getting the paycheck? Or are you going to start to do some of these things that are giving you joy? You know, so? So yeah, so he's probably going to have to do something. So that was that instance. And then I've had just recently, a young lady who was positive she was going to have to leave the company that she was at because she was managing people and hiring people in to do her job while she managed them, you know, because she was going up a level and hiring them in at a higher pay than she was making and managing them and then managing them. I just wish you guys could see Leanne space right now. But yeah, so she was like, I'm going to have to quit so we started down that path a little bit. But then in reality, she absolutely loves where she worked. She loved the people that she worked with. There was like a stockholders and board meetings and different things and I'm like, did you bring this to The committee did you. So she did all that. And she got a fantastic raise. She's living her best life. She's just beside herself, because she's so it totally took a different turn. Yeah. And

Leighann Lovely 30:12

You know, I've heard those stories before where all of a sudden management goes, Wait, I'm sorry. You're not making this? And the person goes, Well, yeah. And they go, Oh, my God, I'm so sorry. Well, we'll just increase your pay. Yeah. Well, sometimes management doesn't really, especially when you are when you are in like an HR type role, because HR managers that stuff. And they don't, they don't realize like, Oh, we're severely under paying the person who's managing all of the levels of pay. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's embarrassing.

Barb Waala 30:56

Right? Well, and when she brought it to their attention, and she said, I can't, I can't continue to do to do this. And I, she could just quit, because she was fortunate enough to have a spouse who, you know, they could do that not everybody can do that. Right. But she, she was like, I very much enjoy what I'm doing. I can make 30,000 more doing what I'm doing, if I just go so I could quit and go someplace else. Right? And then I could come back, and you would hire me for the pay that I want. So why would you you know? So yeah, so it turned out that she was able to stay, that doesn't always happen. You know, I have two other people that I'm working with, and they both want to leave where they are in the company knows that they want to leave. So really, it's just, they haven't done any interviewing and not real good at networking. Ironically, they were like, both of them separately. You know, I'm an introvert, I'm really not good at networking. And I said, Okay, well, you need to stop thinking that because I'm an introvert. And I love networking, because it's one on one conversations, that's the thing. Conversation, you have to stop thinking of it as networking is opposed to relationship building, I want to build this relationship with this person. And, you know, I was taught early on that when you're talking with someone, find out what you can do for them. And then the conversation always goes, and then they'll say, Well, what can I do for you, instead of you going into it, like, I'm coming out with five names so that I can, you know, get, I can get coaching clients, and I'm going to do this, and I'm going to do that I just never go into things like that.

Leighann Lovely 32:42

You know, and it's funny, it's funny that you say that, because that's what the pressure that bosses that didn't do networking used to say, Okay, you're gonna go to this networking meeting, and you're gonna go in there, and you're gonna bring back five leads. And that's how they would set up these people who had never networked before. So you had these, these people who would walk in like a bull in a china shop and be like, Okay, I'm gonna get five sales from this, and they'd walk around the room and just be like, Hi, I'm LeighAnn lovely, and I have stuffing services to sell, I really need you to buy my stuffing service. And, and everybody be like, run away from that girl she's trying to sell. Right? Right. away. Right, right. And then. And when I first started going to networking meetings long, long, long ago, that was how I thought you were supposed to go into a networking meeting. Nobody told me like, here's how you network. And then when someone excuse me, when somebody finally said, like, no, no, no, stop doing what you're doing. The light bulb went off, and I went, Oh, like, I can just come here and be like myself and just talk with people and build relationships and, and maybe make a friend here and there and pass leanza and connect people and like, it doesn't have to be this horrifying, horrifying thing that I'm doing. They're like, yeah, like, Oh, that makes it so much easier.

Barb Waala 34:19

Yeah, it's like a cocktail party. Right? You can just go you know, have a conversation with someone. Right? Yeah, much easier.

Leighann Lovely 34:26

Right. But there are there. There's people out there that, you know, especially especially managers, who are managing a team, and they don't know what networking, and I've seen this happen, they don't understand the idea of networking. So they're like, go to this networking meeting and bring back five leads. And I just, I just, you know, again, I've seen it happen and I just kind of shake my head like, oh, that's gonna be disastrous. This person's gonna this person He's gonna burn out really quick. And yeah, hate networking really fast.

Barb Waala 35:04

Yeah. And I worked with a gentleman who still owns the company, and he's still, he's in his 70s. So, um, he didn't understand networking at all, he firmly believed that if any of his employees were going to a networking event, it was because they were trying to get a job. Oh, he did, he did not allow us like to belong to different groups where we could go on our lunch hours or do different things, you know, like that. It was very, he's a little, he's, he's a little bit of a control freak. What I am going to say about him, though, as I'm talking about this, and thinking back to the conversation with the texting people in the same room, at the corporate office, we were not allowed to email each other.

Leighann Lovely 35:55

That's nice.

Barb Waala 35:56

We had to get up and walk to that person and talk to them. When I first started working for him that was so foreign to me, because the other office that I had been in, I could be sitting in one office and the other person could be across the hall, and I would send them an email, you know. But yeah, it wasn't allowed, you weren't allowed to email the people? And can I tell you, some of the places some of the corporate places that I've helped, or small businesses that I've helped the miscommunication between an email when everyone's in the same office, and then and I would see it, because I'd be copied on it, and I'm like, get off your butt and go talk to the person. Because this whole employee culture thing is not working, when you have 25 people in the office, and you guys are emailing each other. So I am going to give him credit for that one thing.

Leighann Lovely 36:52

You know here's what I hate. And I'm guilty of this. Occasionally. You email somebody in the office, then you stand up and walk over to them and say, I just emailed you. Did you read it?

Barb Waala 37:11

What do you think of my email?

Leighann Lovely 37:15

I used to be guilty of that all the time. And I remember one of my bosses finally saying, Yes, I was sitting around waiting for you to email me so I could read it immediately. And then I kind of went, Oh, shifts. Yep. Yep. Oops. Okay. Gotcha. I'm gonna go back to my desk now. Yeah, um, yeah, I don't do that anymore. But yes, if you are working in the same office, like unless it's you're forwarding an email, or you're just stand up and go over and say, Hey, do you have give, like two minutes? I just have to go over something with you. Yes, like, what, why are we? But here, here's another funny one. I, I have two offices away from my boss. And yesterday, I'm sitting in my office, and I look at my phone and my boss is calling me. And I pick it up. And he goes, I said, Hello. And he goes, Oh, you're in the office, aren't you? I said, Yep. Oh, two doors. So, you know, there are times.

Barb Waala 38:25

Well these days, you never know if someone's gonna be in their office or not. Right. He was hearing the echo, echo,

Leighann Lovely 38:31

echo. And then he's like, Well, now I'm on the phone. So I'm just gonna continue to stay in my seat and talk to you, but I could hear him through the phone and my door. So anyway, okay, sorry. I just thought I would throw that in there. But yeah, communication. I am my I remember, you know, there were days where I was on the phone constantly. I mean, I had a phone glued to my ear. You know, I used to do phone interviews, right? And then my brother would call me and I'd be like, hey, like, I love you. But can we not? Like yeah, let's not talk on the phone. Let's let's schedule a time to do lunch, and be in person. Like, I just, I am 100% an in person, person. So obviously, you know, this whole COVID thing like drove me crazy. However, with the onset of COVID came technology that changed all of our lives. It existed it just wasn't used as much, right? That's zoom teams and all of these things where you don't have to hold the phone up to your like, you and I are sitting here zoom. Having a conversation looking at each other in the face and being able to communicate in a way that is still got some human ness to it because you can see facial expressions. So how did that I mean, did that well, first of all, let me back up. You started your three years ago, we established that, which I mean, that was in like, what? Right before? Yeah, it was great. Yeah.

Barb Waala 40:11

Yep.

Leighann Lovely 40:14

And you were still working part time. When you started your business? Is that correct? or No?

Barb Waala 40:20

No, when I actually started it, where I was actually charging people, January of 2019. Okay. And September 29 2019, not that I represented for any reason, was my last corporate by. So yeah, I had a good six month run of having a majority of one on one clients. And then everything kind of hit the fan. And, you know, it was hard, because it was like, it wasn't gonna feel sorry for my self, because there were so many things worse going on. And but it did, I was able to get the corporate contracts, or the small business ones, where people still needed to hire people, because they, they were still all working, which was fantastic. And then, once people understood their transition of maybe they're not going to have their job anymore, or they didn't like their job. Probably took a good year, before my one on one picked up to where I was comfortable. Like I was having, you know, a couple here and a couple there. But yeah, because people were just like, they stayed where they were, they weren't going to look for anything, because nobody knew what was going to happen. Right? Like, am I still going to have a job? Am I not going to have a job? You know, what's, what's going to happen? And I think, a lot in a lot of businesses. Not a lot, but businesses did close. So, you know, that's understandable. And actually, I'm seeing some businesses are closing now. And it's still the effective COVID. So Right. But fortunately, for those people who want to continue working and not retire, there's plenty of jobs. Right? So

Leighann Lovely 42:11

Oh, yeah, there's gonna be plenty of jobs for the years to come because of what you what you mentioned earlier, which was what the 3 million of retirees but I think that this statistically speaking, they they determined that over 5 million people left the job markets during and I'm sure there still are. So that number is probably even higher now. But over 5 million people dropped out of the job market. And I'm sure that some of that accounts for deaths. But some people decided not to go back to work. retirements, early retirements, a lot of women at that time, decided not to go back to work because of the state of the school systems and not knowing what they were going to do. And all of you know, I'm sure that some women now are. But women and women of minorities were the highest impacted in in all of that. So, I mean, there's going to be a lot of vacancies for AI, in my personal opinion for years to come that Oh, yeah. Companies will continue to hire and or try to hire for. So

Barb Waala 43:32

Yeah. And people. Back in the day, when I was looking at a resume and you weren't staying somewhere for two to three years, and you were hopping around. I really dismissed the resumes. We can't anymore. People are moving around. And and you know, I have older people who and by older I mean 50s 60s, who owned these companies, and they're like, oh, they they skip around too much. And I'm like, it doesn't matter anymore. The hard part is when you bring somebody into your business, there's always a cost. I mean, there's the cost of the interviewing and the hiring, but it's the training once they get there. And all of those things and we no one wants to invest that time in you and then have you leave in six months. But these employees are like this, I can go down the road and I can get $1 more so then they just leave and they just don't care

Leighann Lovely 44:29

Companies don't understand that they have to it is now on them. It is now their responsibility to retain that employee. And they have to they have to change with the times. If we don't have a we don't have a you know, people say I have a hiring problem. No, no, no you don't. If you are interviewing people, and you are seeing traffic, especially if you're working with a staffing agency or your Working with a consultant, independent person who's helping you and they're finding people for you. And you are saying, you know, I have a hiring problem, you know, people come in, they work for me for four months, and then they go away, you don't have a hiring problem, you have a culture or retention problem. And retention problem directly means that you have a culture problem. Companies don't realize that if they are not retaining employees, that has nothing to do with a hiring problem, and has that's related to, and companies constantly are saying to me, Well, you know, we just can't pay more. So we can't keep people. No, no, nope, no, sorry. But employees do not leave jobs. Majority of employees do not leave jobs for money, employees only start looking for new jobs, if they are unhappy for some other reason in their current job. Right. And I have heard more and more benefits is, you know, a driver, I talked to a lot of, or a lot of employees that that, hey, my benefits are just too expensive. But again, people don't start to you know, they don't open up the hood, and start looking, you know, into the all of this stuff, is they are extremely happy. It's just they don't know, people will make sure Yeah, you don't you don't you don't open up the hood and start poking around at your engine. If your car is running perfectly great. You only open that hood. If there's, you know, if it's making noise, right, then that's just not right. And then you start looking at how much am I paying for benefits? How much am I getting paid? How much vacation time do I have? And then, you know, if you ask them, Why are you leaving? Well, you don't? That job is gonna pay me more. But it's on the company's responsibility to say why did you originally start thinking about looking? Yeah. And how many companies do you know nowadays that do an exit interview?

Barb Waala 47:13

Oh, we, the last company that I was at, we weren't allowed to do exit interviews correct. Because he said, I don't care what they have to say, anyway. They're disgruntled, they don't want to be here. But I have the story of one of my friends who they always got a bonus every year, and the end of 2021. They didn't get a bonus. And then at the beginning of 2022, they were all asked to refer people to come work there. And that the people that they were referring, they should let them know that there was a hiring bonus. They weren't giving the employee who worked there. But they were going to give the new people that they were hiring. Not only were they going to start them at more, but they were gonna give them a hiring bonus. So guess what? She's not there anymore. Right?

Leighann Lovely 48:05

That's a kick in the teeth. And she had been there for 12 years. That's a big FU I don't care about you.

Barb Waala 48:12

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're right, when these when these employers are so upset, because their employees are not happy. You know, and they're leaving, they need to look at themselves. And you want to have as many positions to fill. If you are treating the people that you have well, because guess what happens when you have employees that you've had for a long period of time, they know more about the company than just their job, they always do. And you get faster at your job over time. It just happens because you know better and you can always take on more responsibilities. So pay them well, right. And then they don't mind the extra responsibilities. Right? So that's my TED Talk. Yep. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 48:58

I completely cheese. Some of the things that companies do, I am flabbergasted. My boss, my boss once said to me, he said, and this is a great learning experience is a great, this is something that any great boss knows, he says, You always spend the most time with the best employees. He says you don't you don't go and spend all your time with the employees that are struggling. And he goes obviously you spend time with them to coach them and but you always make a point to dedicate the most time to those who are the most important because they need to know that they are important to you need to let them know like you are important to me. And so often those people who are excelling at the company are forgotten about because their manager goes well they don't need my help anymore. And then all of a sudden that An employee that's excelling feels like well cut, you know, my manager never really talks to me never rarely. And they they become forgotten about. Well, and and eventually, they're so forgotten about because everybody's like, Oh, he doesn't he doesn't need us anymore. That that gives them time to become unhappy and eventually leave. Yeah, if you have an awesome employee that's doing a great job, and you know, just rockin it, you should be checking in on that employee and making sure that if do you need anything from me? Is there anything I can do to help you be more successful? Or is there anything that you need? You know, is there anything I'm doing? That's pissing you off? Like? That should be like, number one, you want to retain the best employee? That's fine. I just don't understand why more managers don't get that.

Barb Waala 50:56

I don't know. And when you when you sit in on a meeting, when I used to sit on the meetings, you know, corporate they were always talking about let's look at our numbers, who's in the pipeline, what candidates do we have blah, blah, blah? Why do we never talk about our current employees? What is this one doing? Oh, look at, you know, she just brought us this great thing, how can we, you know, show her that we appreciate what she's doing? When is the last time she's had a review? Who, because I'm gonna tell you one of the companies asked me to do an employee engagement surveys, and when I started them, because I always do those face to face. I cannot get over how long some of the people had been working there, they had not had a review. And they hadn't had a raise. And I'm like, why are you still here? I didn't say that out loud. But a lot of the reason they were still still there was because they liked everyone that they worked with. And it was close to home. So you know, those were big things. But those employee engagement surveys, I personally don't recommend sending them out like a Survey Monkey or something. I like doing them face to face, because you get the facial expressions, you can find out, they're scared to tell you something, because they think you're gonna go back and tell the boss and all those different things. That's probably one of my favorite things to do for companies is the employee engagement surveys. But anyway, yes, appreciate your employees, people appreciate what you have, you know?

Leighann Lovely 52:25

Well, Bob, you are a wealth of knowledge. And I could continue to talk to you for the next two hours. I feel like I've been on a tangent this entire time. Yeah, HR. Let's see, I love to HR

Barb Waala 52:44

The HR tangents.

Leighann Lovely 52:46

So I want to get to the question of the season. Yes. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Barb Waala 53:02

That is a good question. I'll start by saying I'm always a firm believer that the path that you're on, there's a reason that all those things happened because it, you know, helps and gives you the knowledge for for where you are right now. But if I had to go back, I would probably tell myself as a young mom, that it was okay, that I was only working three days a week, you know, 18 hours a week, whatever it was, at that time, because my husband worked second shift. So I could, it afforded me the ability to actually be an office manager work for an accountant, you know, do the different things that I did, when my kids were little. And it was okay that I didn't work full time. It it was perfectly okay that I didn't work full time. That was the choice that I made. And I would just because I was I was panicked back then, like if I don't work full time now. And then the kids get older, what am I going to do and what it all it all worked out? It all worked out? Well. So that was that's the thing that I would say. I so that's the end of that answer. And then I'm gonna just tell you that I had such an extra. I'm trying to think of the word just appreciation for those mothers that were making the hard decision to leave their careers to stay home because during COVID Because it would wreck me that somehow their job wasn't as important as their husbands. But at the end of the day with the people that I talked to it came down to who made more money. Who who was bringing in the majority of funds and who was it easier for them to leave their position Why that? You know, 95% of the time turned out to be the women, that's a whole different conversation. But though they'll be okay to, if they, you know, if they want to go back, especially in this environment, you know, having a gap in your resume is not a big thing. It never was for me. I don't know if that's because I'm a woman. So then I would see someone would have, you know, a couple years where they stayed at home. Let me tell you, when you stay at home as a mom, and you're running your house, hello, that is CEO, see, oh, you know, you want those women having having a mom who's working, best hire her. Because she knows how to coordinate all the things.

Leighann Lovely 55:45

Right. That is the one and I tell people that if that's what you were doing, that's you put that as a job from this day to this day, stay at home mom or CEO of household or what however you want to list that that is yeah, that's the hardest job in the world. And I used to laugh before I became a mom, about people who are oh, that's the hardest job in the world. Yeah, right. Yeah. Then I became a mom and I went holy shit, this is the hardest job in the world. Yes, like ask because you can't manage a four year old or a three year old or five years? My daughter's four right now. So I referenced four year old you can't actually manage them. I mean, in any way it doesn't. Because their brain is not actually making any sense. Like, Mom, I want a milk and then you give her milk and she goes, Mommy, I told you I want a Gatorade. Well, no, you actually did. Fine, I'll get your Gatorade. Like there is no, there is no rhyme or reason or sense when it comes to. So all of the things that you have ever learned about trying to keep things coordinated and organized, throw it all out the window. It is complete and utter chaos, and no sense of the word all of the time. And if you get in the shower, the for your husband or significant other or if you're a single mom, you might as well just drag her in the shower with you or him in the shower with you. Half the time my husband was you know, just wearing shorts in the shower. You're lucky because, hey, it is the hardest job in the world. I only have one. So yes, there are people out there right now. My, my recruiter, one of my recruiters that I work with, she's she is got five kids on vacation. Right?

Barb Waala 57:38

That's not vacation. That's what someone says. It's like just living somewhere else. That's just because you're not on vacation. You're right, just like doing all the things you do at home, but you're doing it in a different location.

Leighann Lovely 57:50

Who said there's there's vacation and I can't remember what the phrase was. vacation and a trip there's read the difference between a trip and a vacation? Yes, and the vacation or a trip is with your children and a vacation is without your children? Yes. Something like that. Yeah. Anyways, okay, so, we are like I said, at time we were Yes. Okay. Um, if someone wanted to reach out to you to learn more about your business more about your coaching services, or all of those things, how would they go about doing that?

Barb Waala 58:33

They can go on my website, barbwaalacoaching.com, it's easy to find. And I have a little link on there that you can click on it. And then it emails me and we can set something up. I always if you want to be a one on one client always have at least a 30 minute discovery call. We call it so then I can find out what it is that you're looking for. And you can talk to me a little bit just to make sure we're a good fit. It's it's the same thing. I tell candidates when they're recruiting, it's like this isn't all about us hiring you, you need to make sure you'd like to so. So I do that. And if it's anybody that needs help with their HR if they need to hire an HR person, I have done that many times hire you know, I'll work in their HR for a little bit and then hire my replacement and move along. Same thing. Barb Waala coach. Yeah, you can you can find me.

Leighann Lovely 59:27

Excellent, Barb. This has been such an amazing conversation I adore talking with you. It's just it's so much fun. So again, thank you for joining me today.

Barb Waala 59:39

Thank you for having me.

Leighann Lovely 59:41

Website – https://www.barbwaalacoaching.com/

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/barb-waala

E-mail - barbwaalacoach@gmail.com

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

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Whitney Rekowski went from a W2 employee to owner, followed by her husband, and has not looked back. This is a great story of two people following their dream, not to say that they have not had bumps in the road, like many entrepreneurs. But like many Whitney joined the great resignation in 2021 and now runs a successful business offering others office space to create the perfect place to run their business.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:07

Whitney Rekowski worked a corporate marketing job for 12 years while juggling a hobby real estate investment side hustle with her partner, she finally joined the great resignation in 2021. Whitney now has her real estate license but mainly focuses on managing and simplifying their real estate portfolio. She founded Office Leasing Simplified in 2021. To help other business owners cut through the confusion of terms and potential hidden fees other companies charge. Their goal is to simplify the leasing process. So business owners can focus on their business and grow their profitability. She now manages office space primarily in Brookfield and Greenfield, Wisconsin. The transition away from her W2 job allows more time with her family, and trying to squeeze in some self care. I'm so excited to speak with my guest today because it shows both sides of the coin, business ownership and a W2 position that many of us face while trying to have our own business.

Leighann Lovely 02:27

Whitney, hi, it is so awesome to have you on today. Thank you for joining me.

Whitney Rekowski 02:32

Thanks for having me.

Leighann Lovely 02:34

So why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself.

Whitney Rekowski 02:37

So I have been in the corporate W2 world for quite some time different roles. But on the side, my partner and I have invested in real estate, working on residential fixing them up. But my husband and I now lovingly refer to me as the exponent, which he jumped into his kind of interested in music, let's just maybe add one more property. And then we jumped in looking at commercial space and lots of podcasts and videos and just books. And so now we have transitioned from more the residential B2C side of things into the B2B side of things. And we've launched our brand called Office leasing simplified, which we really try to cater to working with other business owners and entrepreneurs making the perfect space for them. Because we realized that commercial they have a lot of acronyms and phrases that the common person just doesn't know. And we want to make it easy so they can focus on their business and be profitable.

Leighann Lovely 03:40

That's awesome. And so you mentioned that, you know, my next question was your husband and you decided to become business owners. And now you have Office leasing, simplified. But what I find really intriguing and not that. So obviously, during 2021 interest rates were, I mean, they were awesome for that, right? They're awesome to go and buy a property. But there's also something else that's going on during the economy. A lot of businesses were remote. So I got to ask, what, what's going on at this point in your head when you're thinking, Yeah, let's buy a commercial building and lease out space was that you know, what was going through your head at that time?

Whitney Rekowski 04:28

So we were actually under contract to purchase our first office building in which was to close March of 2020. And then the world flipped upside down. Okay, and the building was 50% vacant and we're just like, is this a sign were we supposed to take this? You know, it's not really the move we should do because there's a lot of fear around commercial office space, and a lot of risk, you know, but a lot of reward as well. So we decided to jump on in and ironically because most people were working remote and businesses were shut down those entrepreneurs I finally had time, they finally had time to say, You know what, I've outgrown my space. You know what I need to reduce, you know, pull in my expenses. And we filled the building within a year. Partially because Al is able to renovate the spaces perfectly for the tenants, partially because of the networking. And you know, just we're working with business owners. So we've wanted to be a perfect time. So let me borrow another building in Brookfield, certainly, you know your later.

Leighann Lovely 05:29

Wow. And, you know, most most people will go that you're, you're crazy. But while you so it was you said 50% vacant, and you filled up every space within a year. Yep, that is that is amazing. That's absolutely amazing. Congratulations on that. And so you bought another building. So now you own two buildings, you own one, I believe from your bio in Brookfield and one in Greenfield.

Whitney Rekowski 05:57

We have a few other properties. So we still have a few stragglers of residential. And we have another commercial building up north, that's a single tenant. But these two office buildings have multiple tenants in them. So one is 15,000 square feet, the other ones 45,000 square feet. So pretty big buildings. But we found also by those buildings were unique that if someone is growing, they can grow within our building and don't have to necessarily change their whole address. Or they can reduce and kind of pull in their expenses. And so we're kind of unique in that size and that opportunity.

Leighann Lovely 06:30

That's, that's great. So you, and you mentioned you are a W two employee. So when did you take the leap from being a W two employee to then being that sole entrepreneur and saying, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk away from that, that I know I have a paycheck, I know that that money is coming in. And now is your husband still? Is he still a W2? Or are you both now 100% on the business.

Whitney Rekowski 06:58

So it I think 2020 burned me out. Because in reality, I was working full time, I then had to take care of our one in our three year old at home mostly by myself, because no one would help. And I was also we just closed on that commercial building. And I'm learning and I didn't give myself credit, but it was learning how to do commercial real estate. I mean, we've done it before, but there's just different. There's, it's a new job, how to market it, how to do the leases, all of these things are different than and negotiate it compared to residential. So I think that burned me out. But then later on that year, I decided to get my real estate license. And we kind of like I said, we dream big, like, my husband's not a gold person. But what if we sold all of these and just bought another one, you know, I think you'd like this, you know, B2B side of that real estate. And so in April, we bought the Brookfield building, April 2021. And then I left my w two, after I signed two good leases, I want to just to kind of prove myself that I could do it. And so I left in June of 2021. And then now al actually, it has left in May of 2022. So he's a few months out himself. And he's just told me last night, like, I didn't think I was going to be this busy. But I continue to sign new leases, and he's doing the build outs form and just general building maintenance. We definitely have buildings that the previous owners thought this would be easy. And it takes work, right. It is a new job. It was a lot of effort. And but we love it new hurdles every day, right?

Leighann Lovely 08:33

So you for for over a year, you were out of the W two world your husband was still a W two employee. So you had that income coming in a little bit of a, you know, security. But now you're both out and running your own business and making it work and doing the thing. That's, awesome.

Whitney Rekowski 08:54

We're both part of the great resignation. I didn't know that was necessarily a thing and that we were going to both jump in at the same time. But we just learned that we were spending money on having other people do the role. And in this day and age, it's very difficult to get contractors. So you know, he has the skill set, he loves swinging the hammer, you know, I couldn't get him back into joining me full time fast enough. So I'm glad that he he's made that transition.

Leighann Lovely 09:19

Great. So you Okay, by trade, your background is in marketing. Correct. Okay. And by trade, what is his background.

Whitney Rekowski 09:29

He was an electrician, he is a boiler steam fitter, he you know, all of the random like sprinkler fitter, all of the randomness that you need for commercial space, that is him. So that's why it was really amazing when we made this transition to like, This combines both of our skill sets. And so we both you know, are needed to run our business and we're allowed to stay in our lane. But now we're kind of managing each other right now. We're kind of hey, did you get that done? And it's interesting because you're used to having more are coworkers. So we continue to evolve and work through it. But it's been awesome.

Leighann Lovely 10:06

Right? You're holding each other accountable at your work, as well as at home, I'm assuming for now, it's not just at home, you're holding each other. Because you mentioned you have children as well, you have young children. So now you now you have to hold each other accountable for work and work life balance, and life at home. That's got to be an interesting dynamic.

Whitney Rekowski 10:31

One of the things I've started for the accountability side of things is, and this was while he was still working, because it wasn't a mean comment. But he's like, I don't really know what to do all day. He just kind of curious of how do you fill your days. And so what I started, because the whirlwind happens, the whirlwind of the days, the chaos, something's darts on fire somewhere. And so things just happen so I can get, you know, distracted in the whirlwind. So I started texting him every morning saying, Hey, these are the three things I'm going to tackle today. And just so he was kind of aware, and he said, hey, don't forget to do this lease or this resigning, and don't forget that. It's like, okay, but and also, I could look back and say, Oh, that's what I wanted to do today. So with him, we've kind of started the similar system, because otherwise you can easily get, you know, things that aren't focused on the business, the biggest goals for our business, and, and kind of just dabble, if that makes sense. Right?

Leighann Lovely 11:27

Ya know, and that's, I think that in any business, you have to have somebody, either an equal or if you are managing a team, you have to have some, some way of holding each other accountable. In a non I want to, I kind of want to say non managerial way. So it's a, here's what I'm going to do today. And you're setting your own goals, right? Here's what I'm going to do today, I'm going to deliver this to you today. And it can be at any, you know, you couldn't be working in any type of job at all. But you set your own goals and tell your accountability partner your account, right. And then at the end of the day, if you haven't accomplished that the only person that you have to blame is yourself. And yes, we all have explosions happening. Trust me, you know, that I we were talking prior to even starting lists of hey, is, you know, how's your chaos happening today? i And I mentioned that, you know, I, I have a chaos free at this moment. And that's a good feeling. Because it's happening around us at any given time, all the time. But we have to have, you know, that that moment of right now, this is the the task I'm going to tackle. And that's great that you guys can you know, hold each other accountable. Or really, it's a matter of holding yourself accountable. But by speaking those words out loud. It makes all the difference.

Whitney Rekowski 13:04

Yep, there's I would love and I joke. Often I say I would love to have clean closets like to have them perfectly organized re everything is just perfect and beautiful. And but in reality, and now especially switching I think a lot of people realize when they were at home, they're like, Okay, even when I am home, I'm not organized, you know, even I'm forced to be in my own home, I can't do it. But for me, it's that wasn't making us money. And as a business owner, you know, we try to have just distill it down to basics is, does this make us money? Does it save us money? Does it simplify our life? And if we're at least tackling items that fall into those categories, every single day will move our business and our forward. And I think for every entrepreneurs identifying, you know, really, it's focusing on profitability, but there's a much a lot of different elements of what that means for everyone's individual business. Or for if you're working for someone else in a company, how are you going to make the company more profitable.

Leighann Lovely 13:58

There are a ton of things that have to be done every day. But there are only a certain amount of things that have to be done that are revenue generating tasks. And those always have to go at the top of the list. Everything else needs to be at the bottom of the list. And if you can get to those things great. But the ones that are revenue generating tasks, those are the ones that absolutely have to get checked off first. And, you know, I wish that I could say that, yeah, I'm brilliant. And I created that tagline or, but that's just a, that's just a fact. I mean, if you did everything else, all of the easy stuff first all the time. You would never ever get anywhere, right? And usually the revenue generating tasks are the ones that were like, I wish I could push that one off, because they're not always the easiest thing to do. Unless you're an absolutely love your career and that would be great. If we all 100% loved every single aspect of what we have I have to do. But the majority of the time, you know, I'm in sales, I hate the busy work, I hate the paperwork, if I could hire somebody to do just the paperwork, that would be great. But I don't make enough money to hire somebody to do just the paperwork. It's just a, it's a fact. Those are revenue generating thing, I have to write contracts, I have to you have to sit down and sign leases, I'm sure that you would much rather be in, you know, helping them lay out how they're going to design something or you know, I'm not in your brain. I don't know what your favorite aspect of things are. But, you know, there are certain things that we love, but often those are not necessarily the revenue generating tasks. So, so here's, here's a great quote, like, what do you think that the greatest challenge that you have had, since becoming an official business owner and moving completely having you and your partner move away from being the W two employees? Both of you, what do you think that that greatest challenge really has been?

Whitney Rekowski 16:03

Obviously, it's going to be the unknown, right? We don't necessarily, we know that we're both very employable, if are really fearful, we always could go back and get jobs. And that's, you know, not worst case scenario, but it's an option. For us. It's all of the risk that's on our shoulders, right. And I think that's with anyone who's an entrepreneur or small business owner, because, for example, you know, we went to our and we have to have good partners. So we went to our insurance agent, we said, hey, poke holes in our policy and make sure we're good to go, we're about to take this leap, we want to look good, you know, and make sure that we have everything buttoned up. And then there's construction in front of our building, they didn't divert the water correctly, and then we had a flood. And now six of our tenants have water in every single unit, and we're fooling the building. So we have nowhere we can move people. And so all of that came on to us. And then insurance didn't cover it, because the insurance agent didn't do his role. And he didn't reality, we could get stuck in the trenches and get upset that and for a while, you know, it takes a couple of weeks, and we're going to try to get tenants running as best as they can. So they can be profitable, but it's on our shoulders, and you just have to navigate, but the what we've done, we just had something similar happen again, but looking up and out and kind of having the 10 year mindset helps, right? It's like, okay, and this is the whirlwind of today. But this is just short lived. And we know we'll get through it. And we're, we're healthy, we're capable. And it just had a shift of like, this didn't happen to us, it just happened in our business, if that makes sense.

Leighann Lovely 17:41

Right? When you when you don't look at yourself as the victim, yeah, you take the mindset of, it's not, I'm not the victim here, I'm just, you know, part of the circumstances of, of the situation. And then you it's much easier to push through to make the next right move in order to get I guess, through the day, because I'm sure that there was hard days when that was taking place.

Whitney Rekowski 18:11

Well, and we take it very personally, because we want our tenants, you know, we keep it small intentionally, because we do like that relationship with and we don't want to have, you know, millions of square feet and a bunch of you know, we're not a corporation. That's why people like renting from us. But it's just, uh, you know, we're problem solvers. And every day, there's going to be problems and things that you can't predict. But instead of going to formal training on commercial real estate, we just kind of jump in, because you'll learn on the job. And that's with anything that people do, you'll figure it out. And as long as you're passionate about it, you'll overcome it. And I think that's just kind of our mindset words, everything is solvable, you just have to figure it out one way or the other.

Leighann Lovely 18:55

That's awesome. So now that you've been through this experience, I am assuming that you have reassessed your insurance agent and had somebody else, you know, go through and try to poke holes in that policy again, learn from your mistakes and push forward.

Whitney Rekowski 19:12

Exactly. And honestly, you can't insure yourself out of everything, right? It's not or, Hey, if I pay a million dollars, insurance, everything will be fine. It's just now making sure having reserves and knowing that everything we're doing we're not overwhelming our schedule. So when something does happen, we can pivot, right? Hey, you know what, this, we have our goals for the year, but we'll have to push those to q3 q4, and that's no different than any other business or personal goals. It's just having that mindset of this is acceptable, and this happens and you know, we'll get through it.

Leighann Lovely 19:49

So what do you foresee? You know, obviously, I think that there's no secret that everybody is looking and seeing a shift in the the world the UK To me right now, you said that you're looking at the 10 year goal, right? So what do you what do you see here in your two years, in your five years in your 10 years as far as how things are going to be, and you don't have to get specific? I'm not asking you to lay out your life. But I mean, when you look out at that, what do you what do you see?

Whitney Rekowski 20:23

So what's interesting enough and interview questions, especially when you're looking for a job, they always ask them, Where do you see yourself in five years? And what? What, but it's such a common question, and they always want to see, you know, what would you? Do you have a brain in your head? Are you you know, would you want to become the CEO? Do you realistic? Are you just fine, where you're at? But I don't like that question. And the reason is, anytime I look back in my life, two years ago, five years ago, I never could have predicted where I'm at, I never thought I was going to leave my w two this soon. But I never thought you know, we both would be focused on this. But we are. And so I love the quote, that is pessimists complain about the noise, when Opportunity is knocking at the door. And I love it, because it kind of encompasses what we're just gonna lean in, you know, we kind of put ideas out there, opportunities come up, and like, you know, I don't really know much about that. But hey, why not? Let's jump in. And we'll figure it out. Because we just always will. So, you know, as we transition to the commercial side, we love it. And I think that's where, for us, it's the you, where do we see ourselves, we're gonna keep mastering our capabilities, but if a new opportunity comes up, we're gonna jump on it. And we always say, We're done buying real estate, but I think we're addicted to it. Because when you find a good deal, and you know, you can make a difference and help more people. It's addicting and difficult to say no. So yeah, with that, I mean, the world, you can't control the world, you can control yourself, you control what's going on, there's always going to be new people who are successful, and no matter what economy that's going out there, and what's going on in the s&p 500 is not what's happening in the small business world, you know, it's different challenges. And so, again, it's remaining optimistic, like, we're gonna get through it, people are going to be successful, someone's going to make money, hopefully, a lot of people make money on it. And I don't know, like I said, positive mindset, I guess it's kind of our mind, where we're gonna keep leaning in. And the big shift now is to actually enjoy life, because we only get one body and one life and young kids. And so we're going to try to schedule in our time for once, because we didn't do that for the last, you know, eight years.

Leighann Lovely 22:47

You know, and it's something I heard actually today that you can't, you can't control what's going to happen. But you can, and you do have the ability to influence your immediate surroundings and your immediate project, you have the ability to influence it, but not control it. And that's all that you can do. And, and I completely again, I am, I am a recruiter by trade. So am I asking the question that, you know, yeah, I didn't even realize I'm asking an interview. But you know, it is, you know, people do they want to know, like, Hey, are you going to do this for the next? But you're right. It's it's one of those unknowns like today, where do I see myself in the next wall, I would see myself here. But if somebody were to come up, or if I were to win the lottery tomorrow, obviously, my entire world would probably, maybe not me, because I'm not one of those people who's like, Oh, I just want a million dollars, I'm gonna quit my job, I'd probably invest it, nothing in my life would change. But for some people, they'd win the lottery, quit their job and go on a major vacation, and then in a year from now, they'd have no money. So that you're right, that question is not necessarily a valid one, but I loved your answer. Because you are a true entrepreneur. You're the true. You know, you have the spirit of a true entrepreneur of I'm going to lean in, and I'm going to ride the roller coaster of whatever comes next. And you've got the itch of an entrepreneur, which means that, Hey, I found the passion. I found what I love doing, and you've become addicted to it. And that's awesome. I learned long ago, I tried to leave my industry. I tried to leave the staffing industry. I'm like, okay, kind of done with us. And it just kept wooing me back and wooing me back and I just can't, I'm addicted to it. I love it. There's aspects of it that there's some days I'm like, Oh, I don't know if I can do the grind anymore. But then for some reason, you you know, once you find your seat at the table, and you're like, Yep, this is the table I'm supposed to be sitting in. Sometimes it's really hard to leave it. Because you're like, yeah, these are my people, this is where I belong. I have found my circle. And then other times in life you go, No, I'm ready to, I'm ready to try a different food. I don't know if that analogy made any sense. But that's awesome. I, you know, I applaud you for digging in. And, you know, taking control of what you can control in your life and enjoying what you're doing. And finding a work life balance that that works for you and your family.

Whitney Rekowski 25:39

We're still getting there. I don't know if there's ever truly the balance out there, especially, you know, the saying that entrepreneurs work 80 hours a week, so they don't have to work for someone else. 40 hours a week, right? There's a lot of weeks like that. But at the same time, you know, the it fills your cup, right? Like you're saying, it fills your cup, even if you're working hard, and there's chaos, and there's busyness and you're like, Well, I don't like this part. But overall, you get that sense of satisfaction.

Leighann Lovely 26:05

And when I say work life balance, I don't necessarily mean that you're balancing Hey, here, I'm working. And I have this great time where I'm, I'm with my family, and I'm not thinking about, I'm talking, you know, work life balance means whatever it means to you. Doesn't I mean, for everybody, it's different. And you know, there's other people I've talked to the season, who have a completely different understanding of what that means to them. And hate. I'm not here to judge, my husband yells at me all the time, because, you know, I bury myself in my podcast, during my, when my daughter sleeping is really the only time I have she's for so. Otherwise, it's mommy, mommy, mommy. But I mean, that's, it's my happy place, right? As long as you have a happy place, and you've struck that with your husband and your kids. And there's some sense of, and I'm gonna go back to the first episode of the season, when Andy wines talked about alignments, as long as everything in your life is got some form of alignment, and is lining up where you can have the things that you want. And there's going to be weeks that you have to shove the dog in the crate and go, Okay, I'm running away from sorry, that's a reference to what we were talking about, you know, before we started this anyways.

Whitney Rekowski 27:29

Well, one of the things you mentioned, though, like we are, where do I see myself, I am not a fan of the goals. He doesn't like the word he doesn't like the concept of it. So I say, Okay, let's put crazy ideas out there. And then just write them down. Because I love the idea of the power of attraction, and you put it out for the universe. And it's probably just a mindset where you're now ready to receive all of these different concepts. But we just found a notebook of please six years ago, and we had something like self pay off our house within 10 years, and buy a lake house and do X, Y, and there's like three or four things. And we looked at him like, oh, my gosh, check, check, check. And when we wrote this down, I was like, Okay, who's gonna do that, like, this is all not going to happen. But we put it out there. And so our subconscious mind is extremely powerful. And without even looking at the notebook, because we're just cleaning up the base. And we're like, yeah, it happened. And so those type of big crazy ideas, I love putting them out there, and just, hey, now that we've built the work, though, you know, a life that neither one of us have to count our PTO days or our vacation days. Now we need to live it now. We need to fully take advantage of it and go on trips with our kids ourselves, you know, and just go play tennis on a Tuesday. I don't know we we need to schedule that into our lives and make it happen.

Leighann Lovely 28:49

And that's I'm a full believer in what you put out there that you need to put out there, what you want into the universe verse, that. And again, I think I've already said this, that when we were talking about, you know, accountability, that saying it out loud, that that makes it that makes it real, even if you were looking in a mirror and you're saying it to yourself, it needs to be spoken it written down. Because you're you're I almost feel like you're you're not trying to trick your brain but you're telling or you're conditioning your brain to say, this is what needs to happen. This is what I want. This is what I hope this is what I plan. And it's it's it's reinforcing the things that you want or that you think about in your own head. But now you're you're saying them you're throwing them out there to the universe. That's why people have one of those boards, dream boards or goal board vision boards. That's why people have vision boards because it's, you know, you you're putting it out to the universe. You're making it real you're making it you know, something that that you can physically see time And remember, now I don't have a vision board, but I definitely regularly will say, You know what I'm going to do what I'm going to accomplish on a daily basis. I'm a true believer in that kind of thing.

Whitney Rekowski 30:16

I have a funny story about vision boards. Now, I'm a real estate agent on the side, just for friends and family and for ourselves kind of helping them save money. And because it is my passion, navigating the chaos of real estate acquisitions. And so our team, we did vision boards, and I brought the magazines home as an analyst, you have to do one, two. And so now they're hanging up, you know, upstairs, or we see him every morning. But the placement, I put up certain things of place I wanted to travel, spend more time family game nights, one of them was Bora Bora. And I wrote why wait, just the concept of like, why wait of like, just do you take action?

Leighann Lovely 30:55

Well, then now we're going to

Whitney Rekowski 30:57

Bora Bora this fall. So it was like just because of the placement of the words like Well, that's not what I meant by it. It just fit nicely in the board. But maybe my subconscious kept seeing it. So it's booked this fall, and we're going to make it happen. So.

Leighann Lovely 31:11

Right, again, subconscious or not, or whatever it might be. It doesn't happen unless it's at the forefront of your mind. Right? It just doesn't like it's easy to forget things my husband mentioned, like we should book this trip. And six months later, he's like, we should book this trip. And if we don't do it, another six months goes by and I'm like, Why didn't we ever book that trip? Yep. Because we just kept forgetting. And it's, but it's the same with, you know, Hey, did you schedule our daughter's dentist appointment? Oh, no, I forgot today. And then a month goes by and I'm like, Oh, my God, she's due for a month ago, she was due for her dentist appointment. And again, I'm minimizing it a little bit, but it goes with everything. So now we have a list of like, schedule this schedule this and every day we check off. Even the little things like I need to get my car into the dealership, I need to do this. Well, why not with the big things. I want to go to Disney World.

Whitney Rekowski 32:16

And you need a time block that and I think that's where time blocking or having like, what are your big things, do them the first thing in the morning, the concept of like eat the frog in the morning, because that's the worst thing that's going to happen to you all day. Because the Mark Twain quote, and that's where focus on those big things, not just for your profitability of your business, but for your life too. And maybe that's where you have kind of what's the, hey, this is important, but not urgent, and it's gonna completely fall off the radar if I don't do it now

Leighann Lovely 32:47

And that's, and that's, you just completely hit home with me on that one. Business owners, individuals like you, brilliant when it comes to you know, you, you are a true entrepreneur, I can tell because you have that you have that drive, you have that passion, when you talk about it, when you when you are excited to leave your W two job and jump in talking about leaning in. But business owners get so wrapped up in I need to make the business work, I need to take care of my customer customers, I'm passionate about my customers, all of those key terms. Those are where all of the sudden, in a year from now, when I talk to business owners, they look back and go, Oh, crap, I forgot to take care of me. And so the number one mistake that you see in really successful business owners, or entrepreneurs, or not just business owners, but really successful employees, even w two employees is that they become wildly successful. And then two, three years goes by four years goes by, and they go, Oh my gosh, I'm so burnt out or their mental health is waning because they are taking such great care of all their clients and everybody loves them. And all of a sudden, this person drops off the face of the earth. And all their clients and their friends are going what happened I mean, this person was was burning at both ends. But that person forgot in the world when have been wildly successful, to take care of themselves, because they were so wrapped up in making sure that everybody else was happy. And you hear about it and you see it too much.

Whitney Rekowski 34:25

I'm definitely guilty of that, too. And I think that you know, that's why I said 2020 burnt me out you know I was working all hours the night trying to just fulfill every all of these different roles that I'm trying to juggle and I didn't even know the amount that I'd put on my shoulders. And a lot of people it says that I don't know how you do it. I don't know how you do it. And I'm like I just do it. I don't have an option like that. There is what other options are there. And so I think that's where now I'm still terrible about you know, personal care and time and whatnot, but we're trying right it's always progress not perfection. And I think that's, you know, it's taking probably a little bit more time to get into a good groove because I don't want to burn out in this role I don't I'm trying to set those boundaries and those that, you know, the the limits, so I have time to be a person because you only get one body and one life, right? And I teach my kids that and you say it all the time, like eat healthy to your body tree do well, so you can do all the fun stuff that you want to.

Leighann Lovely 35:28

And I'm doing the same thing. I've given my daughter fruit and vegetables, and then I'm realizing that on lunch, I'm, you know, oh my god, I haven't eaten anything. And I'm grabbing a pizza and I'm going, what am I doing to myself? Like, yeah, I'm shoving healthy food down my daughter's throat and she's fighting me and fighting me. And I'm going well, you got to eat your carrots. It's good for your eyes. You got to eat your. And here I am grabbing pizza for lunch. And I'm like, I am not showing her. I am preaching to her. And no, no wonder she's fighting me on it so much. The whole idea of work life balance is we preach we don't show. But and I'm not blaming companies, there are a lot of companies out there that just let their employees do it. Just continue like, Oh, you want to do it? Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. And then when that employee finally says, Man, I gotta take, you know, a week or two off the the company goes, whoa, what do you mean? No, sorry, I can't give you two weeks off. Well, yeah, but I haven't I haven't really taken much time off. Yeah, but we really need you around. And that's all of the sudden become this. Now we have a new world that people are going, Nope, I'm demanding it. I need at least you know, two, three weeks vacation time, or you have companies who are going to unlimited vacation time saying, Nope. Take care of yourself. Because I don't want you around. If you're gonna burn yourself out. It's awesome.

Whitney Rekowski 36:55

Yep. And there's something to be said too, about like sabbaticals, because there are companies who did that I had maternity leave twice. And I was off for medical for reason, too. And you come back, and you just come back with a clear head. And it's, you know, as long as you take a long unification sustained way, where it's similar to when we're in the trenches with our business, now, you're in it, and you're just trying to turn away. And it's like, well, when you're gone for a while, it's like, oh, that stuff didn't get done, but it wasn't that important. So you just reset of what actually is important, because there's always going to be a million things to focus on any sort of business or company. And taking the vacation just helps you reset and be more productive and, and spend your time more wisely. I think that is a big shift. Now with people going to the office some days and working from home some days. And that's why for the office space, people don't want to be in their own same four walls anymore. They like to be in their home and have the flexibility, but they don't, they want to go and communicate with other people and talk to someone down the hall and, and have that dynamic because we are social creatures, that's just how we are and maybe you limit it a little bit, maybe you don't have to do it every day. But just be also collaborate and have ideas. So a lot of good, you know, original ideas and new ideas or just from casual conversations.

Leighann Lovely 38:14

So tell me a little bit about that kind of let's let's circle back to your office space, I've had the opportunity to have a tour of it. And it's you have a well have the one in Brookfield it's a beautiful space. And you've showed me some of the updated spaces that you've just recently, you know, done for, it's an absolute beautiful space, and then you also have a very large conference room. Tell me a little bit about you know, if somebody was looking for space, you know, how you're able to kind of pivot to remodeling that for them or tell me a little bit about that.

Whitney Rekowski 38:53

Yep, so some tenants come in and you know, they know I want individual offices so people to be able to work in it. But conference rooms, you know, we have a lot of lawyers, insurance doctors in our building. And they'll come and say, Hey, I need a conference room this size can be tear out this wall or build this here. Or if they wanted a little more modern and having more of the glass walls that can easily be put in. We even have a podcast studio in our building. And you know, just everything is possible. And Ella is fantastic at making it happen. And sometimes, you know, I say hey, put your hopes and dreams out there. Let's see how much it would cost and then you know, you can pay for upfront or we can build into your lease. But a lot of times it's an amazing location right across from Brookfield Square Mall. So easy access to the freeway and you know Moreland and blue lounge area. And we're a little bit different. We're not the building that has fountains in the lobby. We are not ones that are going to you know, because they're expensive. You know, we're focusing on other business owners who say hey, I need a space that is you know, Easy for my customers to find me. And I want to be perfect. So we can run our business. But I don't want to pay 25 to 50% more for these other things, you know, they're just in there are people who can, you know, there's a place for that, right, the a plus beautiful buildings with the pawns. That's not who we are, we're a little bit more, hey, what do you need, let's make it happen for you. And focus on running your business. Because similar to what you're saying, with burnout, if a business isn't profitable, it's not going to stick around. And so if you can get your expenses under control, that's, you know, step number one to finally actually paying yourself and taking home a, you know, some profit at the end of the year, hopefully, for these businesses. But we have suites anywhere ranging from, you know, 400 square feet, all the way up to over 3,000. And it's, it's fantastic, I have a little joke that I definitely net, the next Brookfield chamber I need to bring it up is, you know, you can go first, you know, for maybe you were looking at your credit union statement, these are all people in the building, and you realize that someone's been sent betting too much on shoes or you know, hunting gear. So then you go to marriage counseling upstairs. And then if that doesn't work, then you go over to one of the divorce attorneys. And then you have to redo your title insurance with one of the people in the building. But first, maybe you hired a private investigator just to make sure. And then you refinance your loan with the mortgage guy, like there's so much cross mingling. Oh, and the final one is, maybe you have a tattoo with their name on it. And now you need to you don't want that on you. So you can go to the laser, metal spa downstairs and get their name removed from your tattoo. So like, it's just a really cool building, we are very particular about who we put in the building. Because we want there to be that cohesiveness. You know, we want people to work nicely together. We don't want to have that kind of tension or frustration or competing businesses in the sense of being extremely loud, or, or that so, but it's fun, because similar to how you get to talk to everyone about their own world and their stories, similar for the business side, and I think that's why we've really gravitated towards it.

Leighann Lovely 42:16

Excellent. So you've, you've got everything. Wow, you've got a wide variety of different individuals in the building from you. We're talking about lawyers, you're talking about laser removal.

Whitney Rekowski 42:30

Yeah, that's like a med spa. And then there's counselors and insurance agents. So there's quite a variety inside the building. And really, it's a quiet building. I mean, we're getting to almost fill up that space as well. And eventually, I'm going to be kicked out of my office suite probably soon. But that's a good thing. You know, it's an we're getting people who are similar to, and I say, like our people, I mean, they're kind of people, they're positive people, they're, you know, just trying to live their life as well, if that makes sense. People who come in, and they're just not happy people, and they're mean, and they're kind of aggressive. We don't need that, right. If you can not have that in your world. Don't have it in your life, you know, you don't need someone bringing you down.

Leighann Lovely 43:21

Right. That's awesome. Awesome. Well, hey, I would love to talk to you about the question of the season, we are coming to time. And so I want to get to that I know that you've had an opportunity to preview that question. But if you could go back to your younger self, and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself.

Whitney Rekowski 43:47

So I'm going to have a caveat that, you know, I love where I'm at today. And I don't know, if I change anything, what the rippling effects could be. All of the hard times we continue to face and have face made us who we are today. But some of the basic things would just be going back to high school, probably and be like start your Roth IRA, read the book, Simple Path to Wealth, learn about you just so you can be more confident in finance, right, just so you know, and kind of take control over that. Because they think that I wasn't taught a lot of that. And I think I'd be even further along, you know, on my financial independence in my world right now, if I had done that earlier. But really, it comes down to you know, I think a lot of people feel the imposter syndrome, especially when you're starting a business of Well, someone out there is a professional and does it better than me and why should I even try because they're just doing it and I can never get to their level. But it's just to have the competence that everyone has days that they feel like an impostor and you are doing it you're doing it well and encourage other people on their journey to become As we're all just doing the best weekend, every single day, and sometimes you need someone to kind of pick you up and bring you along on the journey.

Leighann Lovely 45:08

You know, I think that, and I agree, this question is not designed to say that, you know, you would change anything in your current life, but rather, you know, maybe make it a little easier in a in a certain aspect now, but I think there are a lot of people out there that would go back and say, hey, when your dad and your mommy say, put some money in the bank, now, you know, do it and invest in your Roth and your IRA accounts. That is the exact advice that I would give myself, like, hey, hey, when your dad says, Put your money, you know, save your money, do it. That is, that is definitely something but for some reason, that advice gets lost on a lot of or at least my generation, your generation seemed to be lost on a lot of, of individuals. And then when we hit, you know, this age, we kind of went, Oh, how am I so you know, I'm not so but how am I under invested? Why does everybody keep telling me I'm underinvested. Anyways, I have enjoyed so much having this conversation with you today. It's been an absolute pleasure. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, whether it be just to connect with you talk with you more, or to reach out to you about some office space. How would they go about doing that Whitney?

Whitney Rekowski 46:35

So you can always find me and LinkedIn, Whitney Rakowski, or we do have a website office leasing simplified.com. And I do have to have the caveat is even though I'm from Marketing, and that's my, you know, past life, definitely of the culprit of the cobblers children have no shoes. And my website is not nearly to the level I want it to be at because we focus on everything else, but it's there and the contact information is there. So either officeleasingsimplified.com, or LinkedIn.

Leighann Lovely 47:06

Excellent. Well, again, Whitney, I really appreciate your your time today. It's been a really fun conversation.

Whitney Rekowski 47:12

Sounds good. Thank you so much.

Leighann Lovely 47:15

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/whitney-r-a5681826/

E-mail - officeleasingsimplified@gmail.com

Website – Officeleasingsimplified.com

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Amy Beacom, Ed.D. and Sue Campbell are two amazing women that authored The Parental Leave Playbook. They have been leading the charge on rights for parental leave and helping businesses understand that a shift needs to happen on how we think about parental leave. This is one fantastic conversation that you should not miss.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

This episode is sponsored by practice law, the law firm that puts professionalism in legal representation. Their attorneys have 49 years of experience behind their work if you have questions or concerns. They are the attorneys you can trust with expertise in litigation, real estate, criminal defense, family and divorce, business and real estate planning. You can count on them. Practice moves legal services forward, you can contact practice at 414-988-9596 or 262-269-9140. Or you can inquire on their website, www.praktesslaw.com. That's www.praktesslaw.com.

Leighann Lovely 02:13

This is going to be a great conversation today. Dr. Amy Beacom is the founder and CEO of the Center for parental leave leadership, the first full service consultancy in the US to focus exclusively on parental leave, she conceived of and began developing the field of parental leave coaching and consulting in 2006. Drawing on her over 25 years in executive leadership development and coaching. Amy consults with Fortune 100 companies, international organizations, working parents and more to transform the way companies and our country engages with the parental leave transition. Amy is also the co author of the parental leave playbook 10 touch points to transition smoothly strengthen your family and continue building your career. We will also be joined by Sue Campbell. She is a writer, author and coach who has worked with the center of parental leave leadership since its early days helping communicate the transformative impact of their core mission. Her writing often focuses on issues important to parents. She has been published in many outlets, including prevention, Good Housekeeping scary mom and Mama lobe. Sue and Amy, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. Both of you are such amazing women with you know, the your your topics and your book that you recently. Well, not recently, but with your book that you wrote. So why don't we jump right in? Sue? Why don't you start off by introducing yourself?

Sue Campbell 03:51

Sure. Thanks so much for having us. I'm Sue Campbell, and I'm a writer and a coach. And I've worked with the Center for parental leave leadership where Amy is the founder and CEO for about eight or nine years now. And really fell into this work because Amy offered something really unique, which was that we have a broken system. This is not a parent's job to fix when it comes to parental leave. And we can fix this in large part through employers while we're waiting for the country to get its act together. So after my first parental leave experience, I was all on board to help with that in any way I could.

Leighann Lovely 04:31

Excellent and Amy, why don't you introduce yourself?

Amy Beacom 04:35

Sure. Thank you for having us here. My name is Dr. Amy Beacom. I am the founder and CEO of the Center for parental leave leadership. We are the only full service consultancy in the country to focus exclusively on parental leave and we do everything from policy work to what our true love is coaching coach certification around parental leave and manager training the practice side of it.

Leighann Lovely 05:05

That's awesome. It's such a unique topic, because it's so strange because I just recently heard somebody say to me, Well, how it wasn't presented necessarily this way. But she's somebody said to me, Well, they're having a baby, and oh, my gosh, they're taking their full three months of leaves. And I'm like, yeah, well. I said, I mean, isn't that isn't that, like, kind of part of what you get to do? And? Well, yeah, but how does that impact everybody else? Like, yeah, that's, that's, you know, part of what you get to do. When you have a child, you know, that's part of. So it's such a great time for me to actually have because that's such a fresh thing in my fresh, right, that a conversation I just recently had, and what a topic to discuss, because one of the most impactful moments, and I remember my dad always telling me, there are there are only a couple of things in life that that literally can stop anybody in their track, and that everything else should wash away. Death life. And I can't remember the other one, but the birth. I mean, those are the two really huge ones. Right? Right. If somebody passes away, obviously, you need to, you need to stop and remember that person. The other thing is life, that should be the number one most important thing that anybody celebrates having a child and it shouldn't just be about the woman having a child, it should be about the dad, also having a child, you're never going to get to experience that again. Right? So what I mean, you can't just have a baby and run back to work, you need to be able to experience something you're never ever going to experience again, ever with that. That's child right.

Amy Beacom 07:10

Here, here, we and you know, we are on board with that message. Right. And I think the important thing to for your audience to really understand is that is while that transition, that massive personal and professional transition is happening to that individual who's becoming a parent, to your point earlier with that, that story of that conversation you had it is also happening to those around them. And so what we do in a lot of our work is we help hold space and make a process that is clear and supportive for that new parent that also considers those around them. So I don't I just don't want your listeners to think that those are mutually exclusive. Because a lot of what we are trying to shift people's thinking around is these can be mutually beneficial.

Leighann Lovely 08:06

Awesome. And that's not something that I thought that definitely I mean, again, I'm not the expert, you You guys are the experts. Right? You know. So you the you guys collaborated on writing a book about parental leave, obviously. So tell me a little bit in Tell me a little bit about this. Obviously, don't know, spoilers, you everybody needs to go out and buy the book. But, you know, tell me a little bit and tell me the story. How did you and you're both parents. So tell me the story of where this originated? And why you became so passionate about this?

Amy Beacom 08:41

Sure, I guess so I should take that one. This is Amy. It started with me becoming a parent almost 16 years ago. And like many people who get into any kind of parents support or birth support work, they have a, an experience themselves. And for me, it was a very, I'll try and give you the short version. I was living in New York, I was getting my doctorate in Organizational Psychology at Columbia focused on executive education and coaching, specifically women's leadership advancement and how to create more space for women in leadership roles within companies. And so I'd been doing that work for a long time. I'd been in that field before going back to school, and I was consulting to some of the biggest companies in this country around work life balance issues, women's leadership issues. And I was very excited to become a mom. And I thought I would I knew it right thought I could pull it off. I thought oh, I'm an expert in this area. I'm going to be fine. And then I had my child and was knocked off my feet by the experience. And for your listeners, this was T men a half plus years ago, right? So it was a very different environment. And there was no awareness around this time being a transition being an important thing that was happening being something that could be valuable. And it's leadership lessons to bring back into work. None of that was at all part of the conversation. It was you women only had children, they went away, had them talk about it, like came back. And that was it. Right? They fit back right in, they weren't changed. That was it. And so when I had my child, I had a very different experience. I was like, Nope, that's, that's not really going to fly. And more importantly, we are completely missing one of the most important moments in a woman's career lifecycle. And if we can support that well. And back then I was only thinking about women, because I was that's that was my focus. I've since expanded that to all genders. But if we can really support that time, well, both at home and at work, that will transform our work, work cultures, that will allow for more of the things that I was working towards more equity in, in our organizations, better culture is more family friendly cultures, just more humane Places to Work that were also hugely effective. Because as we know, mothers are hugely effective. So that's what started it, I changed the focus of my doctoral research and began to create a field which at the time I was calling parental leave, or maternity coaching and consulting and now is parental leave coaching and consulting. And I have been fighting for that to happen ever since. And that's taken lots of forms. See, PLL is one, the book is another. Our coach certification program is another we've just started this year to train coaches external to our organization. So some of those are internal HR within organizations leave navigators within organizations. Some of those are doulas therapists who work with new parents already, but want to expand their knowledge. And, and then a lot of them are coaches who are expanding into the parental leave support timeframe. So as long answers, Sue anything to add to that.

Sue Campbell 12:50

Yeah, I'll just add a little bit about the book itself. The book itself, we wanted it to be like having a parental leave coach in your hand, because we know that very few people are getting parental leave coaching. So we wanted to really distill the the essentials of our work with clients when we coach them and be able to put that in the palm of any new parents hand. So it leads you through these 10 touch points that can have this outsize impact on the success of your transition. And it's broken into three phases, right? People think of parental leave as just the time that someone is physically out of the office. And that is not the case, as Amy referred to it's a transition there is before you go on leave, when you're preparing to step out the door and handoff your work, there's during leave when you're bonding with your new child and your family. And then there's returning from leave where you're trying to incorporate your previous worker identity with your new parent identity into a working parent identity. So this transition can take a year or longer. And it's really important to recognize what is broken in the system. And what you have control over so that you know the avenues where you have a chance to improve and you can lead your own leave because a lot of organizations, they're still a vacuum. And they're sort of recreating the wheel with every new lead. But we also recommend the book right for new for anybody in an organization, who is in HR who wants to understand what a good transition can look like, right? When actually the publisher wanted it to be just for parents. But we wanted to do the you know, when you were a kid and you had a book on one side, it was one book and then you like flipped it over. And it was another one. So we wanted to do one side is for the new parent and then you flip it over and it's for the manager, right? Because managers can absolutely make or break the parental leave experience. And when we go into an organization, we're not just coaching that new parent, we're also coaching the manager so they can understand how to get the benefits out of the transition, how to use it to grow your team, etc, etc. So it's really important to create that common language and that's what this book can do.

Leighann Lovely 14:58

You know in this This is really interesting. There's a common thread in one hearing what I'm hearing here because in bear with me here for a second. So manufacturing back in the day, and this is still a struggle, still struggle, manufacturing floor, there was this brilliant CNC operator who knew how to run his machine. And all of his notes, were in a little black book that he kept in his locker. And he didn't tell anybody, you know how to run this machine, because it was, well, if anybody else knows I could be expendable kind of thing. Well, nowadays, you know, we want to spread the knowledge, we want to cross train everybody. I mean, it's, it's kind of runs on the same premise, right? You know, hey, you have somebody who's going to be going on leave, this opens the door for more cross training, more understanding of why it's important to cross train. So, I mean, this is not a new concept. But it's just a concept based on now you have somebody who's in a transition in their life where, you know, you have to be some maybe sometimes a little bit more sensitive. I remember when I was pregnant, my boss once sat me down, and he goes, You know, I don't want to be rude. He goes, but am I talking to Leighann? Or am I talking to pregnant Leighann, he goes, You seem a little wow, is I don't know how to take that.

Amy Beacom 16:30

So we might do a little coaching around that.

Leighann Lovely 16:32

And I and I know I have, sometimes I can be, I can be a little bit of an explosive personality when I get my, you know, my, like, determined mine on and I know that when I was pregnant, I was like, hyper, like explosive in certain sort. So I he and I had a really, really strong, solid relationship where he could say that to me, I wasn't offended by it. Now. I know that out there, there are women who are going, I would have sued him. No, no, we didn't. It was we have that relationship. But I mean, going back where was?

Amy Beacom 17:10

Just it's not a new concept, right? It's a, what we're doing. And much of our work as you're picking up on, is we're just saying, this is a really good time to learn all this stuff. This is an experiential learning opportunity that is free, it's already happening in your organization sees it, right, that is cross training, if that is learning how to create more family supportive supervisory behaviors, how to have better communication to your story, how to understand where that line is, and where your trust levels are. So you don't cross it. You know, all of those things come up during this time there, right. And we, we want people to walk into that instead of what not only walk away from it, but like, lock it up in a black box and put it up on a shelf of something that can't be touched or talked about, because you might spurs a gender discrimination lawsuit, or you know, to your point I want, you know, let's do them. It's all very, you know, it's all very bright. Live time.

Leighann Lovely 18:23

Yeah, very, it's very interesting. I mean, wow, very interesting. And so this kind of leads me into my next, you know, my next question. So, why do you think so many people still fear taking time off for the full length of time? I mean, we we are now talking about, you know, how this transition people are becoming more open to this, but there's still this fear around, oh, if I take off my full three months, a job may not be there. But we as a society are looking at this even more, as you know, yeah, you you can take time to bond. But yet, I still.

Amy Beacom 19:08

Were sending two messages. So sorry, I don't want to interrupt. But I just that's such an important point. You're saying where people are fearful of taking time off, because there's the overt message that they're being told you get three months, and then there's the subtle penalizing that they experience or they see around them for those who do take that time away. So there's still navigating a climate in which and culture in which we haven't shifted. We're in the process of it. Some organizations have done it beautifully. But the larger messaging and the the subtle messaging and not so subtle, sometimes write is you will be penalized if you take that time.

Leighann Lovely 19:54

You're right. And that I guess goes back to how I started this when I had account when I have that comma recession of oh, you know, I can't believe she's taking this time off. How is this going to affect me? And I find it interesting. There are other countries out there that give, Hey, go and take a full year off. Yet? How is it that here in the US, we are so far behind in something like this, yet other countries are so far advanced?

Amy Beacom 20:25

Well, so in part that is a misconception, there's too, and the way to think about it is between if you separate policy and practice, so many, many countries, all countries except for the US, and for five small little nation states offer paid leave. So paid leave is a policy, that means you're getting your pay for when you're away from work. And some, as you mentioned, go up to a year some we have nothing in the US. So that's a horrible, it needs to change, right? It should have changed. It was part of the build back better act this last year that was not passed, we would have had paid leave as a national policy for the first time ever. So for your listeners who aren't aware FMLA is and I'm sure they are their HR wanks. But you know, FMLA is unpaid job protection is not paid leave a lot of employees think that FMLA also means they get their pay. So there's always a wake up call around pay. But policy and pay are one thing, practice is another. So in most of those other countries, they also have issues around practice and culture. And how do we do this? So we, I just caution, because we think, Oh, well, so and so does this so beautifully. And it's not necessarily true. We started our work. After I created the parental leave coaching program, the it's an evidence based program that I created as part of my doctoral work at Columbia. And that is, our country wasn't ready for it yet. So we ended up piloting all of that work in Australia, which has a much longer paid leave policy. And what we found was the US actually was much further ahead in some of the cultural pieces in some of the support advancement, organizational pieces. And so feel free to pop in if you have any examples of that, because I mind is blanking at the moment. But that was just a really eye opening time for us where we had gone into it thinking oh, because they have paid leave, they must be doing everything right. And they were actually looking to us and saying, Oh wow, look at how you guys have milk, stork breast milk can ship with you, you know, now there's nannies who can fly with new parents who travel and of course, these are only in the organizations that are doing it really well. Some of the enterprise level companies, but I just want your listeners to separate out those two, there's policy and a strong policy is critical to support a strong practice. But they you there are things you can do in the practice level if your policy hasn't caught up.

Leighann Lovely 23:36

Interesting. So if I'm understanding this correct, policy versus practice, we are which one are we ahead on?

Sue Campbell 23:49

Behind on policy, we don't have a paid leave policy.

Leighann Lovely 23:53

Right. Okay.

Amy Beacom 23:54

But there are some elements of practice where we're a little bit ahead, right, we get more creative, we've had to be more creative with practice, because we don't have the policy.

Leighann Lovely 24:03

Interesting. Very interesting. Now, and you mentioned something in there that that triggered me when it comes to, and I'm sure that you come up against this regularly. Because when when a woman is transitioning back into the workforce, and this has been something that's and I remember the first time I ever saw this and I was like, Oh, what is this room that has a a chair in it and you know, a nice lighting that I'm not allowed to go in because I'm 20 and I don't have a child. So, is this something that you talk to companies about for women who are transitioning back in an actual room where they can go and pump?

Sue Campbell 24:49

Absolutely.

Amy Beacom 24:52

In many places you legally need to provide that

Leighann Lovely 24:55

legally need to provide it something that's other than the dirty Bathroom, I'm assuming.

Amy Beacom 25:01

Yes. And for your listeners, I, you know, just to put a name on it back in the 90s, when I was talking about these issues, they were called lactation stations, the rooms and where the, the breastfeeding person would go and pump, pump their milk. So now there's much more, you know, there's many nicer names, but it's, uh, my, some of them get really funny.

Sue Campbell 25:31

What's my first parental leave, when I came back to work, I asked for a place to pump. So they gave me a conference room with a broken lock on the door. And just there was just a table, right. And then after I was all done breastfeeding, shortly after that, that room got a major spruce up, it got a water source, it got like a little locker, it got a fridge, it got like, it just got the treatment. And I walked in there and I'm like, All right, I'm not going to be jealous, I'm just going to be happy that they move forward.

Amy Beacom 26:13

So to answer your question, that is something we do talk to organizations about because we're what we're trying to do is help them understand how to support this timeframe for that new parent to feel genuinely supported, and that they matter to their organization. So parts of that include, how are they going to return in a way that allows them to show up at work. That means if they are a nursing mom, and they need to pump while they're at work, they need to do that regularly. Or they will start leaking milk all over the office, right? Like so you can't, you need to make that possible. That means considering how long meetings go building in breaks, if you have a nursing mom on your team, you know that there's just some basics that most people don't consider because they're not in that position. But for that new parent, it's their entire world. And if something goes wrong in those three months on their return three to six months is they're shifting back and trying to navigate both this entirely new way of being in in their work person. If that's supported, well, you have a loyal, dedicated employee who will help you with all future parents, you know, there's there's so much to be gained from it. For very, very little give. Just basic consideration. Right.

Leighann Lovely 27:43

And this is this is all extremely fascinating, because one I when I had my child I want I didn't have to. I've failed as a as a breastfeeding mother. I lasted a month, and then

Amy Beacom 28:01

It's not a failure.

Leighann Lovely 28:04

It just it I got what is it called? Status? Yes. And I went, yep. No, I'm throwing in the throwing. Yep.

Amy Beacom 28:16

Well, Kozma status is a horrible, horrible, incredibly awful infection and derailing out support in our culture to do these things that happens to most moms.

Sue Campbell 28:28

Yep.

Leighann Lovely 28:29

So I threw in my white flag. And I said, one month is I feel as a success, and I was happy with that. And so I had no feelings of I failed. I actually felt like one month was a great achievement.

Amy Beacom 28:46

So in our culture, it is yes, it's fantastic.

Leighann Lovely 28:49

So by the time I went back to work, I didn't I didn't need to. And I did take my full three months, and I had no guilt over it. I had a I had a good employer who was like yep, take your time. And then I was one of the lucky ones that never had to do the daycare I never had to do but I if I would have had to do daycare, I mean I I can understand how parents are are just so nervous and nerve wracking about I'm dropping my child off with a stranger and then I'm gonna go to a job and can't check in or I'm not able to you know, I just I completely get it I completely and totally understand I was one of the lucky ones that didn't have to do that. I had family members who but I forgot my point I got stuck on the word mastitis and couldn't remember. Um, however, I also now work in an environment where my daughter regularly shows up at my office and hangs around and everybody comes running out and I want to play with her I want to play with Skylar. I'm like, oh my god, this is insane. We have Netflix on our TV. So that The kids just show up they can, they can sit and watch. So we have an extremely kid friendly environment at my office. So I'm just not used to having conversations about what Wait, what do you mean, you don't talk about your kids? What do you mean, you don't, that it's not acceptable? Because my employer is just one of those employers that let me preface this, my boss has four children. So I guess he gets it, you know, he gets it. Yeah. So to have a company. And he also hired our office manager while she was pregnant. Knowing that shortly after she, you know, came on, she was going to be taking maternity leave.

Amy Beacom 30:46

And think about the message that sends to your, all the employees in your organization, right, just that choice to hire someone he paid, or not he by your organization paid for that leaves, I'm assuming you're in a state that doesn't have paid leave. And Wisconsin doesn't. That message, you could not pay a communications team, that amount of money that that salary equated to, to send the message to your employees that they matter, and that they matter throughout their life events? Like, you can't pay enough for that message. Anyway, that's I, I just wish more managers would understand that.

Leighann Lovely 31:28

Right? I mean, it's just it's, and again, I know that there's, you know, out there, you can't discriminate, oh, you find out somebody's pregnancy, choose not to hire, that's discrimination. But come on, I live in breathe and the hiring and firing industry, I'm in the staffing industry, you can find any reason from here until, you know, to not hire somebody, it doesn't have to be that. The point being is that I have been lucky to always see the really good side to hear some of the the negative side of how some of these people, men and women alike, are discriminated against because of family because of kids.

Amy Beacom 32:12

Most of these people, right? It is jority in this country still. Yeah. And and the ones that are doing it well are the outliers, and they need to be more vocal about more visible about how they're doing it, because other companies did. They don't think it's possible. And then we were like, yes, it is and not just possible, it is the best ROI you're gonna have.

Leighann Lovely 32:43

Right? Right. And, and obviously, you know, I talk nonstop about creating a great culture at a company and this is 100%, all about creating that great culture. Now, I want to shift this a little bit. It started out as maternity leave, which is 100% focused on women. When When did it become parental leave? And have you seen men finally standing up saying, Hey, why can't I take the time that just because my body didn't go through it? Why don't I get the opportunity to bond with my child?

Amy Beacom 33:21

I'll just say real quickly, it started as maternity leave, because that's where my focus and attention was, as soon as I started to dig into what actually matters and what is going to make this better for the women in this country. It it shifted to include dads. And so what we now know and what research has shown is until we have equal leaves for dads and moms, moms will continue to be penalized for taking leave. And so when the when the floor expectation is no matter who becomes a parent or how they all take a minimum of three months of leave, that then becomes the standard, nobody's penalized. It's just the way that we do things. If it's inequitable across gender or type of family way you become a family, job role, length of employment and accompany you know all of those pieces. If if that is not equal, there will be inequities. So do you want to add to that?

Sue Campbell 34:35

Yeah, I think that's just a great point. It's not even just moms and dads. It's also any type of family formation gay couples, gender nonconforming folks, right. As we look at that dei lens, we really need to apply that to the parental leave timeframe to and we've seen so many businesses come to us for a policy help and they have good intentions. They just haven't thought enough. Big Picture about it. So they would have, you know, birthing parent gets this much non birthing parent gets this much. But what if you have two non birthing parents because they have adopted a child do they not get as much bonding leave with their child like, this just doesn't make sense. And it needs to be equitable for any type of family, any type of family formation, because it is good for the parent, it's good for the child, it's good for the organization, if someone's mind is off with their kid, because they had to come back to work way too early, that they're not providing as much value for your company as they could be. Right, we just need to really, really widen the lens on this issue and think in terms of what we want our long term outcome to be. And that's always to retain good employees. And the retain way you retain good employees is by letting them know that they're supported and valued, and they can get their personal needs met as well as their professional needs.

Leighann Lovely 35:57

I've never thought of it that way. And I do hear regularly that the birthing parents gets X amount and the non birthing parent gets that but you don't. And perfect example, grandparents, and grandparents don't necessarily have to be of non working age grandparents ended up with sad, you know, child, for whatever reason, it might be, if that becomes a new family dynamic, you would think that, you know, hey, it takes some time for that child to possibly become, you know, transition into a new, this becomes a new family. I mean, so how would that take? You know, can you fall into that, and there's many different ways that families can be formed and.

Amy Beacom 36:44

And we encourage the broadest definitions possible, we're, we're the Center for parental leave leadership of what we're doing is family leave. So if that's kinship leave, if that's caregiving leave, you know, that is where we would want organizations to get to, we just focus in on the parental leave timeframe, because it's the most common, it's the most understood 80% of employees, at some point become parents. It's a, you know, it's a it's a good opportunity.

Sue Campbell 37:18

Yeah, and it sets the organization up so well, right, Amy was saying, this is an experiential learning opportunity that your company can use to its full advantage, or it can shoot itself in the foot, right. So you if you know what to do for parental leave, you know what to do when someone has to go out on a family leave, or someone has to go care for an aging parent, right, all of the same tools and concepts of our 10 touch points that we cover in the book apply to any type of leave.

Leighann Lovely 37:47

That completely makes sense. Again, families form in so many different ways. And you shouldn't penalize one family because of the way that that family formed. Exactly. Just because you are the one that births that child, whether that be a month, three months, it's still about bonding, it's not necessarily about the recovery, because the recovery comes with. And again, I what I think that when I had my child, and I keep going back to because we all pull for my own our own experience. Within a week, my husband was back at work, because that was his, his company policy, he had to take vacation, it was his vacation in order for him to stay home, he was back at work within a week. So regardless of the fact that I had a C section, I still had to be on my feet by myself, and capable of taking care of that child by myself. So

Amy Beacom 38:43

Oh my gosh, it's just too common. I and I just have to let out some outrage around that. Because you say it in as everyone does in this country as if that's normal. And it is not normal. That is a massive abdominal surgery, you're recovering from a tiny human that you are fully responsible for. And you're having you're supposed to be doing it all at once. Like it's outrageous that that is the way we are set up in our country. And I think when you said a second ago, we all pull from our own experience. We also normalize our own experiences. And so I just would encourage your listeners to just step out of that for a second and two ways one to just notice. Is that the way it should be there is a moral piece to this, you know, there is a an element of that. But also, there's very few things in our life where both can be true. It can be a good thing to do a human thing to do and a wise business thing to do. This is one of those places. And then when we all pull from our own experience recognize that either If you're a person going through leave yourself, or you are somebody who's managing it or interacting with it, those are you're just trying to put yourself into the other people's shoes for a little while, ask them about it. How is this going for you is, are there things we could do to help make this easier? What can we do to help improve this experience for you, you are not supposed to know what that other person's going through without training, conversation, communication and understanding. And I so often we talk with managers or new parents who are like, while they're doing their thing, I don't want to interrupt or if I say something, I'm going to say the wrong thing and hurt their feelings, or, you know, those kinds of pieces. And a lot of our work is pure communication skills. How? Anyway, I'm just going on a little bit of a tangent there. I love Yeah, but it just to pull from our own experiences.

Leighann Lovely 41:09

You're right, and whether that's right or wrong. And, and I totally agreed that because I remember my husband saying, you know, two days before he had to go back to work, he says, You're gonna have to stop taking your pain medication. Before I go back, because, you know, you, you fall asleep, like, right after you take it. And I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my god, how am I gonna? How am I going to stand up, you know, and walk around without taking this medication. But that is the reality for so many, for so many people. And remember, my daughter's only four. So, you know, many of my listeners, I you know, I mentioned my daughter occasionally because she's insane. She's for the need for Eurostar. Um, but that is that is, you know, the reality is that, you know, for so many people.

Amy Beacom 41:59

I don't want to make any assumptions about your relationship. But I will say broadly, when we set it up that a dad is going back to work one week after his wife gives birth, that sets up home dynamics where that mom is the primary caregiver to use that term. But usually the sole caregiver with some dad helping in quotes or dad's babysitting in quotes. And that is not a sustainable way to set up a two parent partnership where both parents are working. It doesn't, it's just not. So just from a purely practical standpoint, we need to give equal length of leave so that both parents are equally set up to be equal caregivers at home, equal employees at work. And it's just the way we do things, right.

Leighann Lovely 42:52

Yep. And, and now, he only works. He works three days a week, I shouldn't say only he works 312 hours. So he's home with her by himself, Thursdays and Fridays, which you can see the stress on his face when I walk in. So you know, he is definitely, definitely a full time dad full time work full time, everything. Same with me, you know, you're right. It definitely sets that precedence early on as Mom's going to be the, you know, full time worker, it's going to be, you know, the the sole caregiver. It's. So I think that what you guys do is is absolutely amazing. And we, yeah, I mean, we need we need to have a change, we need to have a shift, we need to make sure that companies understand what's important. And we have seen this so much over the last couple of years, that people are starting to finally stand up for what they want. And they're telling companies that, hey, I mean, I remember going into an interview and saying, Look, I want to work here, but I need you to know right up front, that the most important thing to me is my family. I come to work so that I can I can live to be with my family. I don't I don't live to work. I mean, that is that is the way that I look at it. Now do I love what I do? Absolutely. I love my job. I love my professional life. But there is definitely a point in which I will shut down my computer and say now it's family time. And I think the world needs to look at it that way. And companies who are figuring that out where the importance is and if they allow them to have those moments and help them have that time with their family and be successful as parents, they will do and work harder at those companies.

Sue Campbell 44:47

Absolutely. So there's there's nothing to lose. There is literally nothing to lose by supporting your working parents. Well there is every thing to gain. And it's just that really short sighted thinking, because we've been thinking a certain way, this is the way things have been done for a very long time, right. That's part of our message of getting the book out and doing I don't know, we've done like, over 100 podcasts since the book came out last September, because we want to get the word out of like, there is a way to do this that you can step into, we already figured so much of this out, and you can benefit it with a very low cost, and a very high ROI. You can retain employees, you can make them more effective, you can make them happier. And in the process, you can make us a stronger society, because we'll have stronger families.

Leighann Lovely 45:43

Yeah. So we are coming.

Amy Beacom 45:46

I was just gonna say on on Sue's point, the book also has a whole host of resources that we use in our work that we've offered up for free with within it, there's a link in it, that it action planning templates, templates for leave planning, reflection, workbooks, manager checklists, there's so many resources in there. Because our goal is to change the way our society does this. And you were saying a second ago, Liam, that we need to change it. We are in the midst of it as a country. And I think that the only people slow to catch on are the corporation, right? It's the people already are there that are having children right now, the ones who are older, who maybe had my age children, they don't really understand that the expectation has shifted. This isn't about an organization allowing their employee to have the this is an expectation, that's a floor, they expect it. It is about how they support around it. So yeah, I just wanted to underscore that.

Leighann Lovely 47:03

Well, excellent, we are coming to time. So I'm going to ask both of you to answer the question of the season. And just so you guys know, I will be putting your contact information in the show notes so that people if they want to reach out to you, if they want to get a copy of your book, I will put a link to where they can do that. So you know, if anybody's interested in reaching out, they can also find you, I know that you have a Facebook page, if you want to, you know, give a shout out to where they can reach out to please do so. But before we do that question of the season. Sue, why don't you go first, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Sue Campbell 47:50

I think I would go back to when I was pregnant with my first child. And I would just say girl, you have so many more choices than you think you have right now. Right? Like everything feels very binary. And especially when we're going through something for the first time we're waiting for someone to tell us what we can have and what we can do, right and what like how this all works. And in this country right now, because there is a bit of a vacuum around this, you have a lot more power and choice than you think you have. And you can use it in a way that it's going to benefit everyone.

Leighann Lovely 48:24

Excellent. And what about you, Amy?

Amy Beacom 48:27

That question is making me emotional. Yeah, I was thinking what Sue said, right that that going back and really saying think outside the box lady, because this world that you've created, where it's right here, in this little square walls, isn't it? There's so much more. But I think instead I would go back to me when I had my son 15 and a half years ago and tell myself this, too shall pass. That what you are going through little young Amy with postpartum depression and horrible breastfeeding issues and not understanding that your career can survive. This will turn into something that will help change countless people's lives in this country. And then every tear and heartache that you persevere through will be worth it.

Leighann Lovely 49:29

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing that. I want to thank you both for taking the time to talk with me. It has been such an amazing opportunity to talk to two brilliant women in about such an important topic. So thank you both so much for your time.

Amy Beacom 49:48

Worse. Can I say one last thing?

Leighann Lovely 49:52

Absolutely

Sue Campbell 49:55

Classic Amy

Amy Beacom 50:00

Well, what I said to my younger self make reminded me perinatal mental health is such a huge part of this timeframe. And what we do and one of our partner organizations is Postpartum Support International. So if anyone is listening here, who is either within an organization or experiencing that themselves, please reach out that we can put you in touch, they can put you in touch. One of the things we do in our coaching work is we do have the first perinatal mental health screening to be used in a workplace setting. So we're bringing that conversation and normalizing mental health within workplaces. And I just think that is an incredibly important thing for your listeners to understand and and then in terms of your question earlier about where to follow, we're on all the socials, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn,

Sue Campbell 50:49

The best thing to do is to sign up for the email list. And that way, you'll get all of the latest stuff, whereas social you're going to miss it because you know, they're gonna screen it and you're not going to see it on the email list, if you want the good CPL leadership.com and you'll get a prompt to join the email list.

Leighann Lovely 51:12

Perfect and I will like I said, I will put that in the show notes so that it is easily found. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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parents, parental leave, child, organization, transition, people, companies, amy, support, book, leave, coaching, birthing, country, family, sue, women, employees, policy, understand

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Paula Rauenbuehler is an amazing woman with a well-rounded background that crosses years of experience as well as countries, giving her a unique ability to understand people's behaviors, needs, and wants. Along with this, her areas of study are in emotional intelligence and now as a coach and speaker, she spends her time working with companies and individuals helping them find their true potential. She is also a Distinguished Fellow Coach with BetterUP

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Paula Rauenbuehler brings over 30 years of experience in human resources with service based organizations, to coaching clients on leadership development, having experienced a variety of cultures in the US and in the Caribbean enhances her ability to meet people where they are and take them where they want to go specializing in emotional intelligence. Her work with clients, helps them create their chosen legacy, clarify their goals, and challenges them to reach beyond their comfort zone. And certainly above and beyond their job description. In this realm, her clients explore the neuroscience of leadership and get to what really makes those legendary leaders, you read and hear about what inspires Paula most is tapping into the unique talents of her clients and working with them to make the best use of their strengths. While building confidence and competence. I call strength and weakness aces in spades. The goal is not to fill in the spaces, but to play to your aces. Well, Paula, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to have you on the show.

Paula Rauenbuehler 02:21

Yeah, thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this conversation. Excellent.

Leighann Lovely 02:25

So why don't you tell me you start out by telling me a little bit about yourself? Sure.

Paula Rauenbuehler 02:29

Well, I think the current terminology now for people that are kind of going off on their own is I'm a recovering HR director. I spent about 30 years primarily in the hospitality industry, in HR, a few years also in healthcare industry, but really working with the employees. And that's really where I thrived. And you know, you think of hotels really, as a front desk, and housekeeping and that type of stuff, but there's an incredible amount of opportunity to work with employees, and help them be the best that they can be. And that's really what drew me into kind of a service based business is it really is all about the experience, which is gives you a lot of creativity, and a lot of opportunity to help people really bring out the best of themselves. So spend about 30 years, you know, in the hospitality industry, a lot of people they grow there, they grow their career by working at different properties. So it's a little bit like a military, other than we get to work in prettier places. You know, that type of thing. So I did, probably about 10 years and the Wisconsin market, then moved to California and lived in Southern California, northern California. From there, I went to Jamaica and spent about 18 months from there, went to Boston, returned to Wisconsin did some Chicago time and then came back to Wisconsin. So what I found was really, that with each location, it was it was slightly different, but the people really are the same. And they had the same needs and the same aspirations. The culture of the hotel was slightly different because each area kind of brought their own spin to hospitality, you know, so in Jamaica, they're very musical. And so you would walk down the hallways, and the housekeepers would just be singing to themselves. You know, you know, Boston, certainly much more city centric and much more formal, you know, those types of things. So it was it challenged me in that way. But each time I moved, I kept looking for that perfect job, and thought that maybe this would be the one that would allow me to do what I enjoyed most which was developing people. And, and it would start out great. But then, after a while, it came to be the same thing. And HR, I think a lot by necessity is turned to be more about compliance than it is about really developing people. And and with each move that that lesson came sooner and sooner. So the point I think the shortest time was probably about three months where before it would have been like a year. or two, before I kind of realized, okay, this is it's the same thing. And I've always liked that developing people. And so about three years ago, I decided for a couple of reasons to strike out on my own, so that I could have that quality of life that I wanted, and so that I could give the best of myself more often. And doing that in a corporate environment, I realized that that just that probably was not going to happen. So that was 2019. Left for for that reason to start my own business, but also to help my mother live more comfortably in her home in the last months of her life. So I had an opportunity to spend time with her, and really give back to her what she had given to me throughout all of my years, and then be able to spend enough time to be able to create my own business. And so I did that about three years ago, and have been working with clients on things like emotional intelligence, and how does that relate to leadership? How does that relate to problem solving, stress management, all those different types of things?

Leighann Lovely 06:05

Wow. So before we dive too deep into what you just mentioned, I want to go back to you know, a little bit of your experience with, you know, the hotel industry. And one you it sounds like you had an amazing opportunity to experience a lot of different cultures, because you lived in a lot of different areas that were clearly different. Obviously, in Jamaica, you have, like you mentioned, you know, that even the housekeeper is just the the cultural differences there were everybody was singing versus Boston, or here in Wisconsin, I'm sure that's drastically different. What were some of the challenges being moving from one state to another, with just that piece of the different mindsets from one place to another?

Paula Rauenbuehler 06:51

I think the you know, the opportunity was is to really take the time to learn their culture, before trying to make any changes is that seek first to understand, rather than to be understood, and it's not so much if it's not broke, don't fix it. But to really better understand what the challenge is. So in Jamaica, for example, that property in particular, was one that typically was used to help leaders come develop their skills, and then they would move on. And so most leaders spent two years there. And so one of the challenges with the employees were that they knew these leaders were only here for two years. And then they would switch to a new leader, and they'd have to adjust to a new leader. And so it's not that the employees were not loyal, it's just that they had experienced so much change, that they, they didn't necessarily invest that much, because they knew in two years, which goes by like, like lightning, they'd have to learn somebody else's style.

Leighann Lovely 07:53

And you know, that's hard. I mean, that's ridiculously hard when you're constantly, why would you state your roots, you know, it's like a kid in a military family, why make a whole bunch of friends if you know that you're going to be leaving in two years, or leaving in a year from now? Because you're, you know, sure, well,

Paula Rauenbuehler 08:09

yeah, and for the leaders, you know, they want to come in and make their merch, because this was a way to kind of get their name out there. And so they did want to come in and make changes quickly. Right? Because they wanted that reputation. And, and that's not easy to do. When you don't even know what the problem is, right? You're bringing somebody else's perspective in there, and not really taking the time to get to know the team members, because you're so some of those leaders are so concerned about their own reputation, and they wanted to have that legacy. And they're like, wait a minute, you don't even you haven't even you don't even know my name, or how we do things here. So working with the leaders to help them understand how to navigate that, so that they could still build that legacy. But not just be a flash in the pan kind of a thing.

Leighann Lovely 08:58

Right. Interesting. Very interesting. And so then you worked in place, you mentioned Boston. Right. Right. So how was how was Boston versus a market in Wisconsin? You know, different.

Paula Rauenbuehler 09:11

Boston was different. Certainly, you know, I worked in the, you know, in the heart of the city, you know, so certainly a lot of activity. That's that location that I started with, had a very strong union presence. So I had worked in Union properties before, but unions weren't quite as strong. And I pretty sure it was local, local, one or two, so was one of the very first hospitality unions. So they had a long history. And I think they had just finished contract negotiations. So there was quite a bit of emotion tied with that, and us versus them, you know, the things. So it was, you know, I hadn't worked in a union property for you know, that 18 months that I was in Jamaica and And the one in California wasn't all that aggressive. So adjusting to that. And the key that was really having strong relationships with the union stewards, not to have them do things my way. But again, to be able to understand where they were coming from. So they we didn't have so many confrontations, and we have more conversations, and really working with, with those employees to Okay, what do we do here? Because we're both in this together,

Leighann Lovely 10:26

Right. And so now you made a comment that, you know, you quickly started to realize, you know, instead of being a year, being three months at times, that while I'm not so much the head come in and be the people leader, rather than that HR person who is laying down those policies and procedures, and, I guess, being the, the gatekeeper of the company, and making sure that they're protected, right. And that is, unfortunately, where HR, where human resources has kind of gone. We've seen it evolve over time, and many of us, you know, legacy, HR people. I don't know if I'm considered that quite yet, I think of getting up there. But, you know, I originally went into it into human resources, because I wanted to be a resource for humans at a company and help people. But quickly, you know, even in the beginning of my career, because I started really, in 2008, I quickly became, wow, this, this is not fun. I'm laying people off, I'm being laid off. And all of a sudden, it was, hey, we need somebody to come in and change policies. And I'm like, wow, everybody hates me. And I'm not saying that that's for every, you know, there are a lot of great HR leaders out there. So tell me a little bit more about that kind of eye opening moment where you're like, Wow, this is really becoming apparent for me. And I guess what drove you to then say, Hey, I'm going to be my own business owner. And I know, you also mentioned a personal drive for that. Right. But sure.

Paula Rauenbuehler 12:04

Yeah, and, you know, I mean, the compliance is, is critical. It I mean, HR, I think one of the primary functions of the HR function is to protect the company. Right? And so the harassment training, you know, now, currently the DEI training and those things are all important, right? Unfortunately, I think when, when companies need to make a choice of what they what they need, they need to protect the company from lawsuits. And so the push is to do compliance training, and do these policies and procedures. I think I heard somebody describe an orientation is, these are all the ways not to get fired in your first 90 days. Yeah, that six makes me want to attend orientation. But it's true. You know, it's how they, you know, cya. And I get that. But it was interesting. So now we're hearing people leaving in companies, you know, they're experiencing a lot of turnover, and losing top talent. And so a lot of focus is on keeping the talent. And I had seen a graph, within the last week of where training dollars are spent. The top one was training new hires critically important. Second one was compliance. The last one on the list was developing people for succession planning. And so you have these people that are, you know, they're compliant, and you're getting new hires up to speed. But I don't know that I've ever looked, when I've considered people for promoting, I don't think I've ever looked at whether they did compliance perfectly. I look for their leadership skills, relationship building, are they engaging their team, and if companies want to keep their leaders, and development is what I'm hearing is what is very important, if not most important for employees is that they have developmental opportunities there, they're not going to get it by sending them to compliance training.

Leighann Lovely 14:04

No. And I remember seeing a statistic and I, it's lost to me right now off the top of my head, but it was like, I think it was like in the 70%, somewhere of people have managers who, who took a, you know, a survey. And it was like, 70% of them were saying, you know, did you ever have management or leadership training, and none of none of them had, they were offered a management role. They were moved into management and none of them and had any type of management or leadership training. Now, and obviously, you know, man, those are two different things, management versus leadership, but Right, both of them are vitally important depending on the type of role that you have. You can't just take and you can't just take an employee who's been, you know, their whole career, a follower and then say, hey, we want you to now be a manager or a leader and navigate that. It sure It's not, it's not an easy thing to do. No completely different mindset. And then companies wonder, why are you failing at this?

Paula Rauenbuehler 15:09

Right? Well, and what I've seen with those, those people that have been pushed into that situation is since they don't know how to lead, they know that raising their voice will get results, it's not the best way to get results, because then they're, you know, managing or leading through command and control. But they know if I enforce the policies, if I write people up because of this, that or another thing, that's all that they know to do. And we don't really teach people even in you know, in my MBA program many, many years ago, maybe it's changed. But I had no leadership classes, a couple of HR classes, but that was more about policies and procedures. But everything else was about productivity and that type of thing. So and maybe that's changed. But even in the organizations, we might do a leadership program that was maybe 12 weeks, but there was no follow up after it. Right? How are these people actually implementing these things? Do they even know how to do that? Right. And, you know, to your question of what made me finally decide is, you know, with the last property, you know, it again was another we, my very first day, I get there at nine o'clock, I think by 930, I'm in a cab to go to another hotel, because they're having one of their union negotiation meetings. So, and most of all, my interviews were by phone. So I hadn't even met any of these people, I don't even know how they what they look like or anything like that. But my very first day, usually I walk around, I want to meet people, you know, that type of stuff. But I'm in a, I made a cab down to another hotel, to meet the rest of the HR team, and then going into a negotiation meeting, which at that point, they were fairly well along. So they're getting to those points where it's really the meat of the contract. So the meetings are much more serious toned, those types of things. But that's also how I met a few of my own union stories. You know, that was their first experience with me, and I didn't talk or anything, I was just there to observe. But, you know, that was the introduction to that property is, you know, how does this union interact with HR people, and probably the most contentious time that you would is in negotiations, you know, that type of thing. So with that property, it was in, they've recently taken it over. So we had to redo it nines, and you know, that type of stuff. So that was my introduction, rather than that person, like you said, to be a resource for people and help people. My introduction was, and I think we were also implementing a new HRIS system. So transferring that which was fraught with problems. And so it was, it was kind of a perfect storm. But even after that settled down, even after we kind of got things under control, it still was about that compliance. And managers wanting to, you know, what can I do within the contract? How can I discipline people and not have aggrieved and lose the grievance? That type of thing, rather than how do we reintegrate this team, after they struck, get them back on the team create those relationships and those types of things, there really wasn't much time to do that. And at that point, with my mother's health, like, you know, what, if I'm ever going to do this, now's the time to do it. And I don't want to miss that time with her to be able to do it, and I just, I just knew it was never going to turn around. They had an outsource training function. So I knew those things, were never going to come back to me, where I could participate in it. And they had their system set up, you know, those types of things. So it's like, you know what, let's do it. I've been thinking about it for a while, you know, what, let's just watch off, walk off the end of the pier and do what I need to do, to be able to bring out my best self, right, rather than continue to go to work in a zombie state and go through the motions. And yeah, it was successful, but not my definition of success.

Leighann Lovely 19:02

Right. And that's, that's the most important thing. And I think that's, that's a powerful statement, a very powerful statement that you just made. Yeah. And they didn't get the best of me. Right, your definition of success. And I think that that's the the key statement there. Because there are many people that I look at, and I think are brilliant and wildly successful. And then I find out a month or two later, and they're like, Oh, I made a major move in my life, and I go what, but you were so great. And they're like, Yeah, I was, but I wasn't happy. I wasn't home for my children, or I wasn't. And you go oh, well, good for you. So good for you for for, you know, having enough emotional intelligence to be aware of that. So tell me now what is your you know, your you're a business owner you tell me now, a little bit about that. And I'm sorry, I is your mother's Oh,

Paula Rauenbuehler 20:00

No, she passed away about nine months after. Yeah, I'm very glad that I was here. I was here at the most important time so yeah.

Leighann Lovely 20:08

And I am sorry to hear that. But it is, but it's wonderful that you had that time with her. And then you were able to do that. So, yeah, definitely.

Paula Rauenbuehler 20:16

Yeah, definitely

Leighann Lovely 20:17

Tell me a little bit about, you know, what you're doing now. And, you know, how you're how you pivoted to, to, you know, run your own business and what you're doing?

Paula Rauenbuehler 20:26

Sure, well, for me, you know, the difference between training and development is the follow through. So I kind of use the analogy is, you know, when you get your driver's license, you know, how to drive, but you're not an excellent driver. And I think leadership development is the same thing is, yeah, they got their leadership training, and they know, the policies and procedures, and, you know, all of those different types of things, they know how to schedule people, but it's, it's after that, that they actually develop their leadership skills. When they come across, I don't know how to address this employee, you know, their performance, you know, they're always, you know, reactionary, how can I make sure that they stay in the conversation, you know, we don't teach those things, and they don't follow through with those things. And so my, my business really is working with leaders to develop those leadership skills. I mean, you hear, uh, you know, you read all these books of excellent leaders and all these how tos, but then they're practicing somebody else. And they're, you know, kind of trying to be, you know, like an Elon Musk, or an Adam Grant or, and they're doing it their way. So again, they're still putting on an act. That's not truly them. Right. So you know, I do a lot of work with strengths management, some of the Clifton Strengths finders use an EQ tool, which marries well with that, because the EQ tool is behavioral, where the strengths or personality more is fixed. And taking a look at that to say, Okay, how do you bring your best self? But how do you use behaviors, because behaviors you can change, but that they're authentic? They may be new to you, you may never have had to do this. But how do you do that, so that it so that it worked well for you. So a lot of my work isn't necessarily like in your face emotional intelligence, like today, let's work on the composite of stress management. Unless that's the topic that they're bringing in. We talked about flexibility. And we talked about being an open minded and you know, how that can get in their way on either end of those spectrums. But the more and more I work with emotional intelligence, the more and more I know how it impacts and has a play in literally everything that we do. And particularly for leaders, just to help them understand what it is. Because most people I think when they think of emotional intelligence, they really think in terms of empathy, and empathy. They see sometimes as a weakness, because empathy, often they see is that's me giving up my responsibility and my authority. And it's not

Leighann Lovely 23:03

Or they think that if I give too much empathy to my employees, they're going to turn around and walk all over me. Right?

Paula Rauenbuehler 23:11

Yeah. And interesting. I was on a, on a call yesterday, and we were talking about emotional empathy. And the other people on the call, really kind of thought it only came into play under stress. And you need to be aware of your emotions, so that you don't say the wrong thing, when under stress. And it's that limited belief that I think, holds leaders back. Because they only apply it during stress, or when they feel like they need to show empathy. And every other time, they're not really cognizant of what it means to attend to social responsibility, what it means to attend to interpersonal relationships, right? What how does it impact decision making? And really kind of taking a look at you know, say taking a look at their results to say okay, here's, you know, this is where you are, you know, where you see that helping you or hurting you, because with emotional intelligence, it's not so much about more, you know, it's not an attempt to get a score to 100 It's really more about what's needed. Now. It can because sometimes flexibility is benefit. And sometimes it's not, you know, so how do you be firm, but not, you know, Stonewall somebody, but how do you do that and maintain your relationship? Right, you know, when you have to tell somebody, no, we can't accommodate that request. How can you do that with empathy, maintain the relationship and, and have them understand, rather than coming in as that new manager who knows nothing else to do? The answer is no, because I said so. You can leave now. It's, you know, how do you how do you bring that all into play? Right, and we don't take we don't really don't teach people that?

Leighann Lovely 24:57

No, no, and it's a. Often it's hard to or and I'm actually thinking to myself, like I, I'm going back and thinking back to when I was my younger self, right? My younger self when I was a rigid, don't move anything on my desk because I'll have a meltdown of Who touched my things of you know, in in those younger days where I couldn't handle like, I had a boss, I had an amazing boss who recognized this in me. And so she would do the most horrific things to me. I thought they were horrific. But she was actually, she actually helped me a great deal. If somebody came in, and I moved anything on my desk or anything, so she actually made a point and I wouldn't go out to lunch, I had lunch every single day that I ate at my desk. And so she made a point to be like, Okay, today, you're going out to lunch? And I'm like, no, no, I can't go out to lunch I have this is my routine. And she's like, Nope, you're required. It's our environment. We're having a working lunch at this place. And I'm like, Oh, my God. Then she went as far as to say, Okay, I come in one day, and she goes, we're moving your desk somewhere else. And I'm like, what? And I mean, I literally almost had a breakdown, like, I can't do this. Well, she started doing it on a regular basis to me. And I'm like, you've got to be kidding, like, but it actually started to get me comfortable with the fact that change happens, right? So now, years later, as I've you know, kind of been in some management roles. It's hard for, it's hard for somebody to come in, when you when you're all of a sudden hit with that. Oh, my gosh, I'm in a situation where I have to say no to somebody I have to roll with, you know, I have to roll with this. At that moment, when you're in that moment, you kind of go wait a second, how do I how do I handle this? And and you you do you have to pull back from? You have to take that breath that moment and go okay, wait, I can't just simply say, No, I have to give them a why I have to give them an understanding. Otherwise, you come off as being that on empathetic, unemotional on. But you also, what I found is that it's the same with a four year old and I have a four year old that if I just say no to her, it's about mama. But Mama, but Mom, it's the same thing. And I'm not I'm not comparing, you know? Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. But it is, if you have a no, but here's why. Or, yes, if it can be done this way, or that. That's what every human needs and thrives for. Right? It's a simple explanation as to know, but we can do this, right. And I was kind of a fumbled example. And the reason I gave the example of the manager who kept doing that, to me, was because she recognized my weakness. And she helped me overcome that without me even realizing to the point where I was like, Okay, I don't really care where I said anymore. And that was over the series of a couple of years. Sure. And now, I'm able to roll with that stuff, I'm able to not saying that I'm a great leader, or a great manager, by any means, you know, we've got a long ways to go with that. But by having those people who are constantly pushing you, who are constantly, you know, helping you along, that it's an amazing thing to have.

Paula Rauenbuehler 28:19

Sure. And that, you know, just kind of brings up for me the importance of transparency. And, and I think that's, that's something that people kept asking for, is we want you to be transparent. And again, I think that that concept is, I don't know if it's misunderstood, or not clearly understood. Because the transparency really comes in and to just use your examples of, you know, of even a four year old and you know, the people is helping them understand what went into the decision. So, you know, you don't necessarily need to get into all of the whys if you needed to lay somebody off, because that's gonna freak people out, that the company is losing money, and, you know, that type of stuff, but be able to let them know, you know, what came into this decision? And why were they impacted and got a master's from MSU. It's not Michigan State, it's an Israeli state, but we've got a master's and making stuff up. I think, depending on the client, that language is a little bit more colorful. But we all make stuff up. And when people don't have the information, we make up our own stories. So we make up a story that they don't like me, that's why they laid me off, right? And they don't like me, because I'm friends with the boss or I knew or, you know, for whatever reason, and then you have to deal with that. That's right. No, that's not this was a business decision. But if you do that upfront, it does a couple things. It helps control the MSU but it also keeps them out of their fear based brain. And because when you're in that amygdala Some scientists say you literally cannot hear. So if you've ever been just like so angry or so fearful, you really, you've got tunnel vision. And you don't see anybody reaching out to help you or anything like that. And when we can have honest conversations with people, even if they're uncomfortable, it keeps them in that executive brain where they can still hear, understand, comprehend, it doesn't mean that they agree, it doesn't mean that you get hug at the end of that conversation. But at least they don't hopefully feel that it's personal. Right, and that it's arbitrary. You know, it helps them walk out of there feeling like they were respected? Because it's not no, because I told you, because I said, so. It's no, and these are some of the reasons why. And that's where managers struggle to because they think transparency is let's open it, all of it. And let me show you the p&l and, you know, all of those types of and that's not what it is,

Leighann Lovely 31:01

Well, there's different levels of transparency, depending on the on what we're, we're talking about, you know, transparency of how the company is doing financially transparency of, of a decision that's being made in internally transport. I mean, there's definitely different levels of that. But right, you're, I mean, I've been told, by numerous people that the brain fills in what it doesn't understand, right? I mean, if you're, if you're given only half the truth, the brain will fill in what it believes the rest of the truth is. Sure. And that's where you get gossip, all of a sudden, you've got rumors flying around, and it's only half or partial truth. But there is a little string of the truth in it. So it's just enough believable that it spreads like wildflower fire. So it's so if you just go Come come out with here's why we made a decision. Here's why we're doing this. Here's why. It's so much easier to squash rumors from going around. Because then all of a sudden, if you're given the, I guess, quote unquote, boring, real explanation, it's less likely that people are gonna go, Well, let me tell you what happened. Because it's not as interesting. Your brain all of a sudden, fills in a much more colorful story usually.

Paula Rauenbuehler 32:18

Yeah, yeah. So for your leader who was testing you is what would have been different had, she said, You know what, I see this as a challenge for you. And as you grow your career, it's going to be important that you get comfortable with change. And so I'm not going to tell you, it's gonna be like a fire drill. But I'm gonna push you a little bit. You know, you may say, it would still have been uncomfortable, but at least you would have understood in the moment, oh, this is what's happening. I still don't like it. But I get it.

Leighann Lovely 32:46

And it did kind of become a joke. I came in one day, and I told her that I was going to superglue my chair to the floor so that she couldn't move my stuff. I mean, it did end up becoming, you know, hurt mental joke of Leon can't handle change, which, again, in my early 20, I was incapable of handling change. And eventually, it got to the point where I was like, Okay, I just, I'm gonna have to roll with this, I'm gonna have to deal with it. And it did. It helped me immensely. Now, I that I no longer have any problem with that. You know, this was I think it was like 2324 at the time. And she was an amazing boss, an amazing boss. She was also very young in her career. Her name was Carol, and I won't say anything else. And if she listens to this, I'm sure she will remember who she is. Sure, but yeah, so All right. So beyond, you know, beyond that. You You do a lot of coaching, you are also a member of so you are also a member? Of better up? Yes. So tell me a little bit about that.

Paula Rauenbuehler 33:55

Better up has been, for me a wonderful experience, because it's exposed me to individual clients that I wouldn't have had access to before. So they contract with an organization. And then the members as we call them, rather than clients, they go onto a platform, they read three profiles and select a coach. So I've had been able to work with, with people that are in multinational organizations. I've one that's now in bliss, she's in Ireland, and now she's in Europe, people in Mexico, people from industries that I typically I probably would not have thought to engage, because because of my service industry background, that's 10 that tends to be where I you know, look for clients. But it's been such a great way to to meet with people from all these different industries and again, like the hospitality, they have the same challenges that my leaders did confidence. How do I talk to my boss, but I said Today's topic, man, I don't think I can do this, how? Man, they promoted me, and I'm not sure I can do this. You know, those types of things without, you know, for this model without me needing to do marketing, so I just they pick me and we just jump right into the coaching. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, so you know that as a business person, you know, you know, that takes a lot off of me to then not have to find them and I can do what I enjoy most and where I think I have an impact on them. So it's been, you know, for me, it's been an enjoyable experience. And in really being able to touch so many different lives, and have an impact on them, really has been, I think beneficial for them. Because there's some clients that have rehabbed and you know, when the end of the contract, they talked with their employer, and we're able to kind of extend the engagement, you know, those types of things, but to see their growth, and where they came from, and what they were able to handle. Because I truly believe having an outside source is really helpful for employees. Because there I never talked with their manager, there's there's no interaction. So there's no expectation, and there's no, I guess, tie in with the organization, I don't get tied into the politics or into the drama, those types of things. I'm, I'm totally detached from all of that. So we can have some truly honest conversations and dig deep. And the member knows it's never going to come back. That's there's not a chance of anything like that.

Leighann Lovely 36:38

And that's great. That's the way that that's the way that should be. So is the organization requesting you or is the individual requesting you the individual. Okay, well, that's, that's awesome. So you're also the CEO of bias, correct, that that's more recent, that you've engaged in that.

Paula Rauenbuehler 36:58

Yeah, just, you know, for the for the MPP piece. Because that, you know, again, that empathy piece, really is that misunderstood that it only comes into play when somebody's upset. But I also think empathy is important when somebody is celebrating something is that you truly understand why somebody is so excited about this opportunity. And do it genuinely, Britain, rather than, you know, congratulations on getting promoted, or congratulations, you're having a baby is empathy, I think is is so critical. But we only talk about it when somebody's upset. And I'm sorry that you feel that way. How can I make it better? Sometimes empathy is really just listening and letting somebody get it off their chest. And it's not about solving a problem. Right? It's about sitting there with them by their side. You're not in this alone. Okay,

Leighann Lovely 37:54

What does that phrase were the quote, I am not your problem to solve. There. It goes on more than that. But and that's, that's so true is there are times I'll and I talked about my dad a lot. Because my dad is my best friend. He's my greatest mentor. He's my sounding board. He's, you know, anyways, but there are times where I will call him and just rant about my day. And he was a manager for many, many years. And sometimes he'll he'll listen to me, he's my empathetic ear, and he'll go, do you want me to give you advice? Or do you just need an empathetic ear? I'm like, yep, just an empathetic ear. Yeah. Like, oh, okay, I feel better. I think so. And it's a safe place, right? It's not, you know, I'm not calling my boss and, boy, I better not be calling my boss. If I'm, you know, complaining, no, I don't actually complain about my boss. He's actually a great boss. But, you know, and that's, that's what it's about. That's sometimes he's also the one who taught me that the most important things in life, birth, death. Those are I mean, those are two of the most important things. In you know, no matter what, if somebody is dealing with the death in their family, if somebody is dealing with a birth in their family, you know, there are certain things in life that that trumps everything else, right. And it's not always tragedy. Sometimes it's its birth, sometimes it's the celebration of something and we need as managers as employers as to understand that I have one of my my partners that work. My employees that just recently she says why she's going on vacation. And she asked me, she says, Do you think I can work from home tomorrow? And I said, No, I really need you in the office. She's still training. She's brand new. So they really need you in the office tomorrow. She's Yeah, but I'm going to be working all night tonight. And I said, Wait, wait, what do you mean, you're going to be working? I said, when you leave here at the office, why are you working? Well, I've got these deadlines I have to meet. I said, your training deadlines? She's yeah, I've got to make sure that I get the I said, No. I said, when you leave here, you're supposed to go home. And be you. Do you spend time with your husband? I said, if you have training deadlines, you do those here at the office? You're paid to? You're paid to do your training. Yeah. You know, and, and I wasn't hearing her. And it took me until all of a sudden, she's like, well, you know, I, I was not understanding that she thought she had to go home and do her trainings. Okay. And all of a sudden, I was like, What, wait a second, why are you? You know? So sometimes it's a matter to have a manager of Wait a second. What are you talking about? You're going to be working into the all hours of the night to get your training done? What do you do? You know, anyways,

Paula Rauenbuehler 41:03

While I'm seeing the whole picture, you know, because, you know, we really, the best workplaces allow people to bring their entire self. So a lot of managers will say, check your emotions at the door. That is physically not possible. No, it just isn't. You know, you know, you know, hopefully they don't interfere, but we need to be able to help people, because that also means those good things, that also means in them not telling somebody, Hey, I got engaged this weekend. Don't leave your emotions at the door. Right? And that doesn't make sense.

Leighann Lovely 41:31

Oh my gosh, my, the company that, you know, I work at we, we laugh, we cry. We my boss pulled me aside to be like, Hey, you, you okay, I know that you had a rough week, I know that your power was out for 24 hours. And you had a tree fall on your I was a mess. Yeah. And that's the way for that. Right there. That's the way that every company should be. Yeah. All right. You okay? Do you need? Do you need Yeah, day off to take care of your personal stuff.

Paula Rauenbuehler 42:00

Yeah. And more than once, you know, because as you were talking about grief, and I think, culturally, we're not quite sure how to handle grief, we think three days should be enough. And you come back as your happy old self. And we don't know how to continue to be empathetic as people process their grief. Or say the, you know, the stress and the happiness of a newborn or a marriage is, you know, even after that time, Thanks, Colin, you know, and just remember that they are a whole person. And none of life is in a discrete timeframe. It's, it's a, you know, it's a spectrum that we experience. And I think it's the best leaders that understand that and realize how important that is. And how it doesn't really take all that much time.

Leighann Lovely 42:50

I just got a puppy. And I don't, for all you people, individuals, people out there who who've experienced having a puppy, it's like having a baby that bites you really hard. And I'm going through a very wide range of emotions up and down. And, you know, I also have a four year old so I, my, my boss sees the, you know, the bite marks all over my hands. So even just having that come into your life, all of the sudden, you're like, oh, my gosh, dogs keeping me up at night barking all night long, like, Yeah, any, it doesn't matter what life is messy. And if you're not an employer, allowing you to be yourself at work, and understand that life is going to get messy. You're you're going to miss out on great employees, because there are companies that are willing to understand that Yep, life happens if you're coming to my company, and you're producing and you're doing a great job. Hey, we'll roll we'll roll with you. Obviously, if you're, you know, got drama every single week, there's an issue but sure, you know, life happens all over the place all the time. Right. Yeah. But you know, people that are able to manage that get their job done, do it well, and still have production, you know, and a life and

Paula Rauenbuehler 44:19

Yeah, but think about what happens to that employee when they're not seen as a whole person. Right. And so now, I mean, some people call it wearing a mask. Some people may call it hiding. Eventually that weight wears them down, right? You just can't do it anymore.

Leighann Lovely 44:34

The stress of that is a goal. So I've spoken with individuals, not I haven't spoken with individuals but I spoken with Denise Shannon's I go back to a conversation with her she is the de shamans and Chelsea booty because they run a not for profit organization called good friend Inc. and they bring in information out to the world about neurodiverse individuals, okay, and one of the number one things that they talk about is how hard it is for somebody who is on the spectrum or a neurodiverse individual to go and work. If, you know, at a company, if there are not special accommodations, special accommodations set up for that individual, because they process information differently. And so part of that is that it is exhausting for some individuals. And I'm not just speaking to neurodiverse, it is exhausting for some individuals, to have to constantly pretend to be something that they're not, or constantly have to shape themselves or try to fit themselves into an environment that is uncomfortable. And I bring up, you know, Denise, and Chelsea, because they talk about neurodiverse individuals constantly trying to mold themselves into what society believes to be the norm. Right? Nobody should have to do that. It's, it's completely emotionally and physically exhausting, we should all have the right to be able to be who we are all the time. And if people out there can't be that because they're assholes, well, they're going to be found out anyways. Right? And, and the good people who want to go to work, do their job, want to be able to go home, and be with their family and be happy. Those are the ones who are going to rise to the top and shine. And I went on a complete and total rant.

Paula Rauenbuehler 46:32

No, but I think it brings up a good point. Because yes, it is I think it's more obvious with people that are neurodivergent. But I think the best leaders already do that. But in, you know, maybe a less dramatic way. You know, so for me, you know, with the housekeeping background, you know, the the best housekeepers knew how this housekeeper liked to have her cart. And so they made sure that you know, that I happened, or, you know, let's, you know, let's put her she doesn't like to be moved around. So we don't need to move her. Let's do that. Because, you know, like you with that change. It kind of upset the day and she's not as productive. And she doesn't want to go home feeling unproductive. But I think the best leaders already understand that, that that that individualization, because it could be, you know, if you celebrate with birthday cakes that you get the flavor that that person likes, rather than just some random cake that you picked up at the grocery store. How much meaning would that flavor have to that person? Oh, you remember that? I had like, you know, marble cake versus, you know, pull chocolate. Or you remember that I like cheesecake instead of, you know, a regular cake. That can be such a nonverbal expression of appreciation and respect. That, that counts a lot. For things like retention engagement. You see me you hear me? And it takes nothing to do that.

Leighann Lovely 48:01

Yeah, absolutely. The little things, the little things are the ones that impact people in such a profound way often. So, alright, we are coming to time. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. Okay, if you could go back to your younger self and give advice to your younger self, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Paula Rauenbuehler 48:27

It's interesting, and I'll pick this age for a reason. Around 30. Because I think around 30, I was just having a conversation with a niece who's turning 30. She said, Why do you think the 30s are better? You know? And I said, because I think we find our voice then. And we've worked through a lot of the expectations and figured out where do we really want to be, and where we don't want to be those types of things. But you have to go through those experiences to know what you don't want, and where you do want to be. And I think I would tell myself to to listen and act on my intuition. Rather than, you know, kind of say, that's never gonna work. Or I can't do that. Or no, I just need to toe the line. That next job, that's going to be the perfect one. I think I would have had myself listen more closely. And, and I may still have stepped away when I did. But I think I would have better directed my career and probably would not have taken the same job over and over again, at different places. Maybe I would have gotten into a training function where I would have been more fulfilled and and satisfied and still being able to do my best work rather than because of compliance work I can do. You know, it comes easily. It's not what I enjoy, but I can get it done and so people appreciated that and so I got recognized for that. But it wasn't what felt my soul, you know, fed my soul But when you get that recognition, and those accolades, that feels good, but not good enough, after a while, it just wasn't good enough.

Leighann Lovely 50:07

You are very similar to the advice, the age that I would give myself advice, because you're you're really right. You. I think 30 is definitely the age where people find that voice because you're your 20s is truly that experimental of what do I want to be when I grow up? Where do I want to be? What company do I want to work for? And you learn so much in that 20 to 30 year span of 10 years of, of really gathering as much knowledge as you can you believe that you know, everything? Oh, sure. Yeah. It isn't until you all of a sudden look back and go, Wow, I really did not know very much. Yeah. But that's great. That's awesome. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Paula Rauenbuehler 50:58

Probably the easiest way is find me on LinkedIn, connect with me. You know, I post quite frequently on there, and I try to interact with people on there. And then email at Paula@LeadingUPCoach.com is another way to get a hold of me. But yeah, LinkedIn is where I spent a good deal of my time creating relationships and posting content and just helping people. Just to give them little tidbits here and there.

Leighann Lovely 51:22

Perfect. Well, Paul, I really appreciate again, you taking the time to come on and talk with me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Paula Rauenbuehler 51:29

Yeah, thank you. No, it's been a nice experience.

Leighann Lovely 51:31

Thank you. Yes. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Linkedin - Paula@LeadingUPCoach.com

E-mail - Paula@LeadingUPCoach.com

Website - leadingupcoach.com

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, leaders, employees, understand, training, compliance, manager, hr, conversation, type, empathy, day, hear, clients, jamaica, life, company, helping, sudden, individuals

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Dr. Jim Kanichirayil is a student of people, with his Doctor of Education in Ethical Organizational Leadership. Jim has built, managed, and led teams, with most of his experience focusing on understanding why people join and leave companies. He also has a podcast called Cascading Leadership, which you should check out! This is a conversation you should check out, Dr. Jim is not only brilliant he is a fun interview and an educated one at that.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If your are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Jim Kanichirayil is a full out talent strategy nerd. Jim's been in the staffing and or technology space, where the biggest chunk of his career. Typically he's helping clients solve end to end talent strategy problems either through technology, service or coaching. He spent most of his professional life trying to understand why people join and leave organizations and taking those learnings and helping organizations become more effective in attracting and retaining their people. His passion for talent led him to complete his doctoral research in organizational leadership on the topic of leadership style and leadership training, and its influence on employee retention and turnover is not pure theory, though. He's taken the knowledge and applied it to start up accelerating growth in revenue organizations. He's worked on New Project launches in tech and then built an IT staffing organization from zero clients and zero revenue to an $8 million organic growth business. He's currently at circa the leading end to end talent strategy solution in the marketplace. It makes so excited to have this conversation with Dr. Jim.

Leighann Lovely 02:27

Dr. Jim, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. So thank you.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 02:34

Yeah, great to be here. Thanks for having me on Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 02:37

So why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about you in your background? And yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 02:45

Sure. Well, first off, I do terrible, Dr. Evil and impression. So the details of my life are quite inconsequential. So that's that's all the impressions that you'll get. But in terms of kind of who I am, and then what I'm about and all that good stuff. I'm currently one of the management leads at circa we are an end to end talent strategy solution, we actually happen to be one of the only ones that take a holistic approach to an organizational talent strategy, leveraging technology to help you build diverse, elite teams. And you know, we can we can talk about that at some point. But like, when you're thinking about, or when I'm thinking about, you know, my career in general, you know, I'm a huge talent nerd. And specifically in in all areas of talent strategy is really my wheelhouse. I've basically built my brand and my career around that topic. And if you look at the last, I don't know, 15 years or so most of my career has been spent in or around the talent space, whether it's acquisition, whether it's development, whether it's building technology, efficiencies for organizations in in talent acquisition, building, recruitment organizations. So there's this deep thread of my career, that's, that's talent focused. And, you know, a lot of people will throw around the term nerd about all sorts of things. But, you know, for the people that know me, I am a bit extra. So I actually completed this was several years back, but I'm so passionate about this stuff that my doctoral research was actually on why people join and leave organizations and more specifically, what role leadership style and leadership training has on employee retention and turnover. So that's the long and short of kind of what I'm about and where I've operated. Hope that helps.

Leighann Lovely 04:47

Yeah, absolutely. And you and I have, you know, a couple of things in common. I'm a complete HR geek, I use the term nerd I use geek I, I love this stuff. I I love talking about this stuff, why this is why it's a perfect match to have you come on and talk with me. But you and I crossed paths. What many years ago when I had actually what I believe, applied and interviewed at an organization that you were working at at that time, and, you know, it wasn't the right fit for me, for you, whatever, doesn't matter. And now we find ourselves yet again, kind of in the same space, where you now have a podcast, I have a podcast, and we're kind of talking about the same things, you know, culture, building this, you know, employee retention. So tell me a little bit about your podcast, what led you to that?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 05:44

So, I mean, I think, one of the things and and I'll put it in terms of common problems that sales professionals deal with, so you know, everybody was encountering all sorts of stuff during the pandemic era. And at that time, during the, the period of lockdowns, one of the things that I think everybody observed was, it's becoming more and more difficult to get in front of people in any sort of meaningful way. You know, I noticed, you know, there's only so much calling and emailing that you can do to get people to respond. So you need to be approaching that entire effort differently. And one of the things that that that comes up and I actually built an entire practice that's that's focused on it was, you know, if if you want to take a long term view, into your network, and your relationships, well, you have to apply some long term plays. Fundamentally, from a sales perspective, you have to get people to know like, and trust you before you can advance any sort of selling conversation, right? So when email response rates, call response rates all went down, I started thinking about, well, what are some of the other tools in my arsenal that I can leverage to get in front of people, and I've always written, I've always, you know, shared out, you know, content, and that sort of stuff. And this was just another way for me to, you know, potentially advance it. But I think the big trigger point was, when I had actually left staffing and gone into another organization, this was an organization that was focused on, really, a services play into the market. And in order for people to actually understand the role that you play in this space, and it was a coaching organization, you really have to build rapport, trust and credibility in your audience. And I was making a push that, hey, our entire sales effort is highly transactional. And for this sort of service, you can't sell the service, like you sell tacos, you can't just message random people and say, hey, you know, spend a boatload of money with us, because we're asking you to the world doesn't buy that way, the world doesn't work that way. So we got to do something different. And that's lean into content as part of our demand generation strategy. So my marketing counterpart, and I had actually built out, you know, an 18 month roadmap with a week to week cadence that was broken down into the day in terms of what sales and marketing activities look like, but it didn't get any traction. So I just kind of went rogue and said, okay, all right. So if we're not going to apply company resources to get in front of the people that we need to get in front of and and engage them in meaningful conversation. I'll just go rogue, and Google the hell out of what I need to do well and figure it out. And that's the, the genesis of the podcast, right.

Leighann Lovely 08:42

And I think that a lot of people felt those pains of during, during the pandemic of I'm dialing the way that I've always done it, and I'm getting, I'm getting nowhere. So the the people who were had an understanding of what was happening during those times pivoted the proper way. It's the people who were struggling to get it and push that content in a different way that are still struggling to this day, even though now people are starting to pick up the phones again, a little bit. There's still people who are in Wait, I don't have to pick up the phone and I can still run my business. And they're still not picking up the phones. It's but a lot of companies started to pivot and figure out that we need to push our content a different way. And the world has decided that in order to make a decision a buying decision, a everything that you said there's there's has to be a foundation of a relationship. I was talking to somebody the other day and I said hey, when somebody calls you and you don't know the number, do you pick up the phone? No, not anymore. I mean, I I have a cell phone that now that actually tells me scam likely that's what it says on your phone. Are you going to answer this? You know, it's So the only other way to reach a proper audience, and then actually build up exactly what you said, which is that, you know, the rapport, the the ability to show them. Yeah, I know what I'm talking about, I have the knowledge there, I am the expert in my field. So awesome. That's great. You, you were one of the smart ones who pivoted with the times and said, Hey, I'm gonna push the content out. So that's excellent. That's, that's absolutely amazing. So tell me a little bit more about, you know, what, what is the content?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 10:34

So, Yeah. So the, the genesis of the show, or the origin of the show was just pure need. But my co host and I, Lawrence Brown, we've known each other for, you know, 20, some odd years. And we've, we're a couple of Gen Xers. So we're old. And we're not supposed to be like, aware of all of this newfangled technology, or whatever. And, you know, for those listening, I'm probably going to tell you to get off my lawn at some point, too. But the, you know, we've had this conversation for years about, hey, you know, there's so much stuff that we were indoctrinated on throughout our career, you know, work hard, be a high achiever outperform, and you'll naturally get recognized and rise to the top. And that's true to an extent. But that has its limits. So we kind of we kind of benefited a lot of our leadership throughout the years. And, you know, our conversation was our ongoing conversation, the Lawrence and I had was, wouldn't have been, wouldn't it have been great if we had sort of a cliff notes version? That's an old person reference right there. That's these little books that would give you like the cheat sheets of like these big ass novels that you didn't want to read when you were in school. That's what a cliff notes is. That's like old people, Google for those listening. So we, you know, when it it'd been great if we had a cliff notes, career hack, that allowed people like us to move their careers further faster. And that was really the why of cascading leadership. We wanted to talk to women, people of color, immigrants, who have risen to senior leadership, and have them share their stories of how they got to where they were, so that we can actually democratize that knowledge and push that out into the world so other professionals can actually move their careers faster. Instead of like grinding like a schlub for 20 some odd years without getting any recognition for it, and then wondering, well, crap, all these people are getting promoted before me and I'm outperforming them, what's the deal? So that's really the the ethos of the show. So when we look at, you know, we're getting close to launching season two, when we look at what are the areas that we play in, we have a heavy theme of our show, that is sales effectiveness, marketing, effectiveness, HR effectiveness, organizational effectiveness, and then we'll do other nerdy stuff like book reviews and whatnot. But, you know, we've had author spotlights where we've had published authors come on the show, Sue Hynek was one of the more recent ones that we've had. So it's, it's really interesting. And for me, I'm nosy. So I like talking to people and finding out getting all up in their business. That's totally off brand. But, you know, I it's, it's an outlet for me to, you know, really understand people at a personal level, and, and build a stronger overall network versus, you know, 5000 people who barely interact with you.

Leighann Lovely 13:43

Right, and most podcasters, I mean, I know me, mine is pretty much 95% curiosity. And I guess the other 5% is, Hey, maybe I can entertain some people and get some clients. While maybe it's more on the client side of, you know, hey, maybe somebody can see me as the expert and say, Hey, how can she help me in the area of my business as well? But, I mean, most of my most of the time, I'm, I'm a true geek, I truly have the curiosity. I truly am interested in the people that I talk with. I mean, how could you How could you sit, you know, do this all the time? If you're not if you don't truly have that curiosity? Right.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 14:27

Yeah, I mean, the the intellectual curiosity bit is important, and I don't think you should necessarily shy away from the whole client acquisition aspect of it, because think about it. It depends on how you're leveraging it. And this was one of the big problems that I had with staffing because staffing as an industry talks about how their relationship business but they actually treat people both internally and externally as disposable. Like if you're not hitting some metric, or if you're not converting clients fast enough, you're out out the door. And when you think about it from a personal professional brand perspective, your network is your client base for life. So if you're taking a long view, they might not be a customer now, but they might be a customer or referral source at some point down the road. So what are you doing today? To invest in that relationship? And that's something that very few staffing organizations, you know, really pay attention to. It's all about, you know, Hey, your results, aren't there, email and call harder. All right. That's effective. Right?

Leighann Lovely 15:34

You're right. And there are in historically, staffing companies are transactional based businesses. Yeah, there are a few companies out there that are the diamonds in the rough, me being a very relationship based person. And here's another statistic that's that's, there are feet, how many staffing agencies out there have a podcast?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 15:59

I don't think there's any that I'm, that officially have a podcast, I have people like you or me that might be running around rogue, but then we're always probably dealing with the question of well, how is that impacting the business?

Leighann Lovely 16:10

Right, and my entire philosophy, and the reason that I have left companies and turned down positions, is because I am not a transactional based seller. I have I build relationships, I create relationships. And I have now come in, you know, to people that I have known 15 years ago and said, Oh, it's great to see you again, because of the fact that I build those relationships. It's extremely important. And I want to talk to you a little bit more about your current role and how that how your philosophy on that relationship building. And if that philosophy and your relationship building ties into where you're currently at?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 16:55

Well, I mean, the the relationship focus in terms of how I approach the marketplace has always been consistent across, you know, all sorts of different roles in my career. It was the case even when I was early in my career and worked at Enterprise across two divisions, it was even though it was a highly transactional b2c business, I focused on the experience and building that customer for life. And that's, that's, that's a different mentality. You can approach the world as if you're engaging with it with the intent of building a customer for life in multiple different capacities, or you can look at it as hey, I'm, I'm approaching the world, and I'm engaging the world from the perspective of this as a customer. And they're not really any different from any other customer, at any other point that I might be in my career. So this isn't new, the relationship focus isn't new for me. I think when you're looking at having that relationship mindset, the current state of how that should be applied, you should have a pretty strong visibility or pulse, or cents into how are customers buying today. And that's critical. The reason why it's critical is we've all been there. People aren't responding to emails, people aren't responding to phone calls. So the solution can't be, let's do those things harder. Like I've said, I've said it before. And now the question is, well, why are those mechanisms Not, not not yielding the results? Well, it could be one of two things it could be both of them are related to whoever sending one, your messaging could be complete crap. And you could be just throwing out a bunch of stuff that nobody cares about, that's either focused on you or your company, that doesn't work. Or you don't have the right orientation and have a sense in how people are buying. So your customers. The experience that a customer has, its income, incredibly noisy. Steve watt is the Director of Marketing at seismic and he talks about it and he actually lays it out really effectively when he's talking about the buyers world. They have 800 people that are reaching out to him on a day to day basis, telling them about how their solution is the best thing since sliced bread. Nobody cares. This is why your your three paragraph emails that you send on regular email or LinkedIn never get responses. Because they don't know you, they don't like you. They don't trust you. There's no relationship there. And then you're acting as if you're like God's gift to whatever agenda that your customer is trying to pursue. So you have that

Leighann Lovely 19:38

Delete. It's an immediate, here's the three paragraphs Delete.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 19:42

Yep. So you know when you look at that relationship, focus your relationship focus should be particularly zoned in on. You know, you should have a good understanding of the problems that you solve, but your messaging and your outreach should be really focused on understanding where your customer is at in a given point in time. And you can approach it a couple of different ways. If you're just spraying and praying and you know, Steve calls it pitch slapping everybody. Well, your hope is that you get the 3% of the marketplace that might be in a position to buy right now. And, you know, I know the kids say it this way, that's dumb AF, because you're spending all of your effort to capture 3% of the marketplace and have a transactional thing that serves your purpose, which is driving your commission check. Does it make more sense to to find the 3%? Or does it make more sense for you to outreach in a way where you're interested in capturing 100% of the market that might be a customer for you at some point in the future? What makes more sense? So, you know, that that is the critical question that people have to answer. And sellers have to answer when they're going out in the world. Who do you want to be as a seller? Do you want to be that greasy person that, you know, is just throwing stuff at the wall and hoping something sticks? Or do you are you really committed to establishing relationships in an authentic way?

Leighann Lovely 21:22

Yeah, and you know, it's interesting that you say that, because the things that are coming to my mind that the moment that I became wildly successful at being able to, and I hate the word sell to my customers to be able to close business down, I mean, and it and that's what I mean, it is and be able to all of a sudden, be successful, make those, you know, commission checks come in, it was when I stopped being selfish, stopped, going in going, I'm gonna get this person to buy for me, it was when I started going in and just saying, Hey, today, I'm not going to sell today, I'm going to learn something about this person. And I'm going to walk out fully understanding everything I can about this person and their company. After I started taking that mentality, it was all of a sudden, instead of trying to sell to them, I just became the expert on them. And if I couldn't get them to buy from me today, they became somebody I knew. And all of a sudden, they were sending me referrals, they liked me, they just simply like to I was they enjoyed the time that they spent with me. And I found that they were telling me everything about themselves and everything about their business. And we I've now made friends, I have people who originally were prospects that have become friends that have become clients that have become referral sources. And this is a book of business, or a book that I have built up over years and years, that people that I've known now for 15 years that come back to me and say, Oh, Leanna, I've got a great referral for you. Now, that was, like I said, this is 15 years in the running where, you know, since I've been in the business, and and when I explained, you explain this so much better. The way that I explained it to people was when I finally lost my, when I finally got rid of my pride, of coming back to the office thing, I got one I sold one. Instead of walking in thinking I'm going to do that I started walking in saying, Hey, I had a really great conversation with a company today. And somewhere down the line, I'm probably going to work with that person.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 23:31

And that's, you know, I think that I think the caveat, or at least the addendum that I would I would throw into that. Having a focus on what relationships did you build today, that's critical. But I think when you when you look at, you know, the mindset that you need to be in, to orient yourself the right way the focus shouldn't be in, in, listen. But let's be real here, I'm not going to I'm not going to like kneecap anybody there and say, Hey, we should be ashamed of selling. Let's let's let's take a look at the world. The entire business world is either in sales, or in service to sales. So at some point business is being done, because if it wasn't, the lights wouldn't be on. So I don't I don't shy away from the selling aspect of it. And I want to say that out loud. But people buy from people who they know like and trust. So the mindset and Stephen Covey talks about this, it's really applicable to sellers is your number one responsibility is to understand before trying to be understood, seek to understand before trying to be understood. And that's how you should be thinking from an orientation perspective in terms of how you go out in the world to really build those authentic relationships. And that's critical because it's going to have downstream impact that mindset is going to Have downstream impact on everything that you do from your talk tracks, to your emails, to how you engage on socials, all of that sort of stuff. And it's with the intent of capturing 100% of the marketplace into your network versus cat, like throwing stuff against the wall and hoping you fall into the 3% that might be interested at this given point in time. So when you're looking at a what is my mindset need to be? It's it's seeking to serve seeking to solve seeking to understand. And I would say this is aspirational. But you should care more about the initiative that your buyer is trying to drive than your own commission check. So the closer that you are to being that person that can give them a recommendation, understand their situation, and then give them the recommendation to somebody else that might actually solve it better than you. That's really the space that you want to occupy because that's what's necessary for you to earn that business for life, versus being like everybody else who's coming in and talking about their solution as the absolute best thing in the marketplace. Because Newsflash, nobody's the absolute best in the solution for everything. So stop trying to be a Swiss army knife, which does like a crappy job of like, 20 different things, and just be excellent at the one thing that you saw that

Leighann Lovely 26:19

Yeah, that's a great analogy. That and Swiss Army knives kind of suck. Yes. Yeah, I agree. Great analogy. So I, the statement that rings in my head constantly is that I have worked at companies and my husband will tell you all the time, he goes, God, I hate salespeople. And like, you know, honey, you're married to a salesperson, right? And he's like, Yeah, well, I don't hate you. And I'm like, Well, God, I love to hot, we're married. Sale sales, the sales life had this cycle that, at least for me, it has drastically changed it, it is no longer the and I and I use this term lovingly to all of you car salesmen out there. But it is no longer the car salesman sales. And if you're still doing it that way, you're not going to last long in the sales world. It is truly the relationship in order to be successful long term in any role, set it up numerous times. Now, it is a relationship based selling. But what I would love to learn a little bit more about you is that you you're an advocate for training, retention, you know, all of that you went to school for understanding, you know, that at organizations, and I would love to have you talk a little bit about that. Are you open to, you know, telling me a little bit more about the coaching aspects of in what what you've done with that?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 27:49

I mean, that's, a long runway. Yeah, I mean, I think I think in general terms, I think in general terms, when you're when you're looking at being effective from a talent, strategy, perspective, and, and really being tight across it, you know, you have all of these different elements in the talent strategy, roadmap or continue, you have talent, traction, you have onboarding, you have development, you have upskilling, rescaling and you have retention, and then you know, on the back end of it, you might have an exiting process. So when you look at that entire roadmap, if if you're looking at what are the biggest things that impact your bottom line, it's, it's not just your ability to attract talent, but it's your ability to retain it. And there's a lot of different factors that influence talent retention. I mean, obviously, one of the biggest factors is, you know, who is the leader of the group that you're hired into? Because when you look at the biggest reasons why people leave organizations, high on that list is, you know, manager alignment. They play the biggest role. But there's other elements that play into a stay or leave decision as well, you know, you have the diversity component of the organization itself. If I'm in an organization, and I don't see people like me, not at not just at the peer level, but at all levels of the organization, that's going to impact my stickiness to the organization. So that's one aspect. But diversity is different from inclusion and equity. So the in belonging, not only do you have to have, you know, a representative population in your organization, but you have to make sure that you're being intentional in making all of those groups feel like they belong. And again, that ties to does my organization look, the way that I look at all levels of the organization. So I'm a brown guy, so you know, if I don't see if I only see brown, brown people at the individual contributor level and then I look Get my career progression and see that, you know, the rest of the organization is pretty monochromatic. Well, I'm going to, at some point come to the realization that there is no path here for me, I might not ask. And it's actually when you're talking about underrepresented groups, they're actually the most likely to not ask and not advocate, that was one of the reasons why we actually launched cascading leadership was to, you know, kind of short circuit that tendency and and have people take more agency in their life. So when you're looking at a talent strategy, in general talent retention, in particular, it's not enough for you to constantly operate on the attraction spectrum, you have to have solutions that, you know, once somebody is in your doors, you have to have coaching and training at the manager level, you have to have upskilling and rescaling as as a component of your talent strategy solution. And you certainly need to make sure that you're being intentional in terms of creating an environment where people feel like they belong, because you can have a diverse workforce, but have an organizational culture that is toxic to diversity, either overtly or covertly. And you're going to stay in that in that talent attraction hamster wheel is what I talked about

Leighann Lovely 31:23

What you just said that is, and I have spoken with, you know, I've spoken with other guests this season, as I've been, you know, recording season two, and it is really you made a such a valid point. Because I've spoken with, you know, diversity, inclusion and actual trainers who own she owns her own business. And that's which, that's all she does. She does. She does coaching and training. And she's a speaker about, you know, diversity, inclusion and equity. I have spoken with a couple of people this season and something that I guess I they may have said it and it kind of went over my head sometimes during a conversation, there's so much that is said but something that I did not pick up on was that yes, you can have diversity at a company. But if you're not, at all levels, representing that diversity, that the different, you know, individuals within that organization, then yeah, you're you're, you're gonna really damage against your, your organization, because you're right, if somebody is, you know, somebody who's black, but all of them are on the production floor, what, how do they see their path into management? How do they see their path into leadership? I've never considered that. And that is such a valid point. So if you were talking with an organization at that is in that situation? What is the solution? I mean, in my head, I can think of a valid solution. But how is that a coachable moment for you?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 33:04

Well, I mean, I don't think there's a single solution. But I think I think part of this starts at a at a very fundamental level, like when, you know, and I'll draw an example out. So I recently, I post constantly on LinkedIn, and one of my colleagues had an email exchange with a potential customer where, you know, he's trying to bring them into our sales ecosystem. And he sent an email on diversity and hiring. And the customer responded, and said, you know, whatever happened to hiring based on character skill, and you know, a couple of other things, likability or whatever, instead of hiring based on race, and that hints that that points at a fundamental lack of understanding that might exist in the broader world about what diversity actually means. So that person, you know, distilled or defined diversity down to a single category, and that's race. And a lot of people will define diversity down to a couple of categories might be race and gender. But that's not actually what having a diverse workforce means that diversity means exactly that you have representation across any number of groups. So it's not just race. It's not just gender. It's you know, sexual orientation comes into it. Neuro diversity comes into it. Age comes into it, veteran status comes into it. There are so many different factors that create a diverse workforce. And the ultimate intent in terms of how this impacts your ability to retain your talent is that the more representative your organization is of the broader population, and the more people feel like hey, there's somebody of me and people can occupy multiple categories. So this is a check the box sort of exercise the more your organization and represents what the actual world looks like, the better you're going to be when it comes to being able to keep your people once you've gotten it. So it's not just a simple function of coaching. And I'm not a DIY expert. So there's that too. I think one of the things that, that Maya Winston who is an actual di, coach, and she's the head of the onine solutions, which is a pre IPO stage startup, and she's embedded di, in a tech company from the startup stage. What she says is that, you know, the biggest piece of advice that I can give organizations is that don't be performative about your di efforts, it's not enough to throw up a rainbow flag or throw up, you know, whatever the DI initiative is of the month and put a PR statement about, you know, this is what we're doing for for Dei, you have to work at embedding that across the organization, not only in terms of what your organization looks like, but also how your organization behaves. So that means how are you engaging your entire workforce? How are you creating the the culture necessary to have meaningful conversations about you know, one thing or another, there's a recent story that came out where I think I can't off the top of my head come up with the exact company, but I think is a is a it's a well known tech company. And one of their employees asked the question of, you know, do we get Juneteenth off? And the leader, or one of the their internal employees said, Well, you get Martin Luther King day off. So no, you don't get Juneteenth off, you get MLK day off. So and when I talk about, hey, you can you can be performative about your DNI efforts. That is an example of an organization that outwardly says we care about this stuff, but internally has a culture that is toxic to a diverse workforce. So it's not like a single piece of coaching, we're talking about a structural change in terms of how we're defining some of these things, because a lot of us have backwards definitions of things based on our understanding at a point in time. And I think the key thing that I will point out is, you know, the worst thing that you can do if you're on the other end of that conversation, I mean, you know, my colleague that that got that email about what happened to you hiring based on skill, you could have easily flipped out and said, you know, you're so ignorant and uninformed about stuff. And that's fine. But I think that's an opportunity to educate like my philosophy, from a diversity perspective, especially when it comes to talent strategy, we should be bringing as many people together to have these conversations versus automatically defaulting into the position of your right, I'm wrong, because what does that do? It's actually in conflict with one of the fundamental things that I talked about, when when we're engaging as salespeople our responsibility is to seek to understand, so if somebody says something, or somebody has an opinion on something, you're responsible, unless it's like completely and obviously, like off the wall, crazy, you should be engaging to understand, hey, tell me a little bit more about where you're coming from from that, because you guys, I'm curious. And that should be the basis of of your interaction.

Leighann Lovely 38:33

But who is the judge on crazy? No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 38:40

To answer your question, if if the comment comes after hold my beer and watch this, it's probably a crazy idea. So I think if you can use that, that that as a litmus test, that's, you're probably on safe ground.

Leighann Lovely 38:53

Yeah, yes, yes, absolutely. Probably 30 years from now, the kids that are coming up, are going to be way more sensitive to all of the things that you and I are having conversations about now. Which is it's an absolute beautiful thing. But you and I have lived for so long in a generation of individuals who, who do struggle and time when my grandmother was sued for referring to people of color in and actually using that term when referring to a black person. And she was sued for for that. But that is how she grew up. That was the terminology that they used. So in and again, 30 years from now, they're going to be using different pronouns in reference to individuals, they're choosing their own pronouns. Now they're choosing. So as time goes by, you know, things are evolving, and we're changing. But yes, as far as the sensitivity on an understanding of all of this stuff these conversations need to have so that We can continue to educate the people that are currently in the workforce that are currently growing up and coming into the workforce. And we can only hope that things will continue to evolve, and that people will open their minds to, to what is happening and the and, and the push to have more inclusion and diversity and understand what that means. Because no would have asked me 10 years ago, what that means I would have said, well, that means that you hire people of different races, I didn't know what, for instance, I didn't know what neurodiverse individuals were, I didn't know that that was even a thing. I mean, now we're coming out with odd people who are autistic, they are now considered to be neurodiverse. And that there's a huge spectrum. And, you know, so this is all an education piece, and an absolutely, but definitely conversations that need to happen. And I continue to educate myself, it's just a matter of these individuals being open and willing to learn. And unfortunately, there are people who are like, I don't want to learn.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 41:07

I mean, I you know, I'll the one thing that I'll say to all that is I don't think it's it's a 30 year runway, I think this is going to actually be impacted pretty significantly in the short run. And in the short run. The reason why is because you have millennials and Generation Z, who are building and advocating for these changes out in the open. And that ties into some of the buyer Centricity stuff that I talked about from a sales perspective, is that those sellers, who are not only leveraging content, collaboration, to build stronger relationships, but are actually talking about their journey. And this could be as anybody, as a professional, I encourage anybody, whether you're an accountant, or whatever, if you're on some platform, social platform, you if you want to build a career that has lasting impact, you should be building that out in the open, and being transparent and vulnerable to an extent because that's actually what's going to drive your brand out faster. So you see a lot of people doing that across multiple functions. So this is where I, I challenge the idea that in 30 years from now, the world is going to look like this, actually, I think it's probably going to be like 234 years from now the world is going to look a different way.

Leighann Lovely 42:28

And I agree that the world is definitely going to look different in two to three years. And the reason that I said in 20 to 30 years is because in 20 to 30 years, you and I are going to be retired, much of the this our generation is going to be retired. And we're going to have the generation that is coming up and learning all of this and out and speaking and telling their story. They are going to be running these companies. And it's going to be second nature, it's not going to be let's talk about this let's let's do training. It's going to be second nature on that. I you know the same thing with emotional intelligence, we have emotional intelligence training. Well, by the time my child, my four year old is in the workforce, there's not going to be training on emotional intelligence, it's going to be something that was in ingrained in her from the time that she was little, because I'm learning about that. My you know, and I'm teaching her different things about that. So anyways, we are coming to time. I have the question of the season, and I would love to hear your response to that. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 43:42

Oh, that's a good one. Yeah. Okay, so this is gonna be contextual. So when I was graduating high school, I was accepted to both Brown and Stanford. And, you know, I'm a generation zero immigrants. So like, not born here. And from another country, so we didn't really have a big network in terms of how you're supposed to, like navigate this stuff. So I got a partial scholarship to both of those. But even at that time, you're talking about a tuition bill on a yearly basis that's like beyond anything that I could wrap my head around at the time. And I asked my high school counselor like, hey, how do you navigate this? And his first question was, how you're going to pay for it? Which is absolutely the wrong friggin question to ask somebody that doesn't know anything, because it's already my question. So your job as a counselor is to like open up a view into what's possible versus the limitation that that's that you're currently dealing with. So my advice would have been go to Stanford. And the reason why is that it's that same era at Stanford, where you had people like Sergey Brin, and all of the big tech companies that exist now they're in startup mode at that At times, so I would have been in that same ecosystem. And who knows what that would have created in terms of just the network alone would have been fantastic. But it was the network at the point in time where you had all of these companies that were starting their acceleration mode. So that would be one thing. The other thing that I probably would we might do is, you know, early on, I would have probably advised myself to focus on building your brand and building multiple revenue streams in terms of your professional life, and see what you can do to monetize that early, so that you're never relying on like a single job, you to drive your main balance sheet. So those are two different areas that that that I might consider, I don't know exactly which one I would I would stack higher. But that's, that's what came to mind.

Leighann Lovely 45:59

Awesome. So you went to you went to Brown.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 46:02

No I didn't go to either I went to East, I went to Eastern Illinois and full followed my girlfriend at the time. Because my reasoning at the point was, I can easily afford directional Illinois School. And the plan was to go to law school after that. So I knew I was going to spend a ton of money in law school. And that ended up going a different direction, because life happened, and my parents bought a business and I ran that. And then by the time they sold it, I was like, Well, I gotta catch up to all my peers. So let me you know, do like a real job versus this, this side business that they they bought, and I ended up running. So you know, you you look at in the point in time, you look at the biggest opportunity possible. And you go after that, versus the practical option. Like I've, I spent my 20s and late teens taking the practical option with the intent of pursuing the next thing. So the lesson is, the next thing might not ever happen, and you don't know what's going to happen in the next year in your life. So go for the biggest shot. And here's the practical application for people that might be listening and are navigating, like career searches and all that sort of stuff. You'll always have employers that come back and say, Hey, I know you want this director role or VP role. But right now, we want you to slot in at this lower level role, and work your way up to it. My advice in that practical scenario, is tell that employer to go eff off. Because if you believe that you have built a track record to get that top spot, you could literally drop dead tomorrow. And the company will replace you. So go for the moonshot versus the practical, earn your way up. And you'll be better served, don't slow your career down because somebody else is telling you this is where you slot in. There's plenty of companies that are looking for great talent. And there's plenty of companies that will hire you at the appropriate position. The whole earn your way there is a sucker's bet, so don't do that. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 48:17

Well, Jim, this has been an amazing conversation. If somebody wanted to reach out to you to connect, how would they go about doing that? And then where can they find your podcast?

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 48:28

So you can find me on LinkedIn, that's my most active channel. You so I'm all over the place. I post daily on that. You can also follow me on Tiktok. Under the cascading leadership handle, were casted cascading leadership, which is the podcast we have a LinkedIn page there too. So you can find us that way. podcast is available on all major podcast channels. We also have a YouTube channel under the cascading leadership tagline. If you're big into communities, I'm in a bunch of different communities. So sales cast is a community I belong to. So is the sales enablement collective. Those are slack driven so you can find me there so I'm not difficult to find.

Leighann Lovely 49:15

Excellent. Well, again, thank you so much for your time today and you have an awesome rest of your day.

Dr. Jim Kanichirayil 49:20

Thanks, Leighann It was great being on the show. Looking forward to chatting some more.

Leighann Lovely 49:25

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

E-mail – jim@cascadingleadership.com

Linkedin- linkedin.com/in/drjimk

Podcast - cascadingleadership.buzzsprout.com

Company Website - circaworks.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, building, organization, talking, talent, diversity, business, biggest, relationship, terms, career, conversation, point, customer, company, world, leadership, question, solution, cascading

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Karley Cunningham is a business owner and an adventurous and beautiful human. This was such an amazing conversation with a true entrepreneur that has an amazing spirit, she helps her clients understand how to create an internal and external culture in order to accelerate their business.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:07

Grand strategist and Business Growth accelerator. Karley Cunningham, takes businesses from competitive spaces out into Blue Ocean Territory, where they can confidently stand out and thrive as brand leaders in their sector, who are international client based benefits from accelerated growth, profit and stability as her innovative surefire method provides them with a surefire strategy and toolkit that enables them to charge a premium, attract ideal clients and outpace their competitors. Karley entrepreneurial success story is featured in the awarded book, the wildest net by Pam Slim, believing deeply in the practice of givers gain, she's developed a global network and rarely goes a day without making a referral or connection when not focusing on the business or expanding her network. She can be found somewhere in the mountains of the Pacific Northwest with her wife and dog in their four by four. Karley, Welcome to Let's Talk HR. I'm excited to have this conversation with you today.

Karley Cunningham 02:21

It's such a pleasure to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:23

Well, why don't we start off? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Karley Cunningham 02:27

Where would you like me to start? You want me start business side or professional side?

Leighann Lovely 02:31

Wherever you want to start?

Karley Cunningham 02:32

How about the business side or professional side? How about personal side or as well? It's off to a good start. There we go. Yes, I have the memory of a goldfish. All right. So let's go personal since I completely skipped over that the first time. I am in North Vancouver right born and raised about an hour southwest of Toronto in Ontario. So I have North border from you and I moved out here because I have an absolute passion for the trails in the mountains and I spend anytime that I'm not at my desk and having great conversations like this on the trails, trail running and mountain biking.

Leighann Lovely 03:11

That is awesome. And just a moment ago you showed me your your your little companion that you have your your puppy or your pets not so much a puppy a dog does he or she ever join you.

Karley Cunningham 03:23

He is now retired because he's 10 and a half but he was definitely because he's Border Collie Springer retriever cross who's a phenomenal trail dog and I so miss having him at my side on the trails. But he gets to enjoy his his time now going at his own pace.

Leighann Lovely 03:38

That's awesome. So, so why don't you tell me a little bit now about what you do professionally do.

Karley Cunningham 03:47

During the day, I work with agents of change the disruptors, the innovators, changemakers makers, those who whose business purpose is to make this world a better place for all of us. And in particular, it's interesting, I was having conversation yesterday and I said, you know making positive change? Well, everybody has a different opinion of what positive changes. And so I'm I'm thinking of reverse revising that to saying those who do no harm. So change makers, innovators disruptors, who are changing the world so that we do less or do no harm.

Leighann Lovely 04:25

That that is, hey, that's awesome. Because yeah, you're right, everybody. Everybody who believes that they're making change, most people think that they're doing it for the right reasons. But that may not necessarily be the same or be in line with what the next person thinks is the right reasons.

Karley Cunningham 04:51

Yeah, are there right reasons. Right. Right. Thank you Supreme Court.

Leighann Lovely 04:56

Right. And and I suppose that going back to do an episode you haven't heard this episode, it hasn't actually launched yet. But going back to something that I heard on Episode One that will soon launch that I spoke with Mr. Andy wines, he said if it is legal, moral or ethical, and it can pass those tests then. Okay, but we have to have a referee of what those things are, right? Well, absolutely. And as he would say, you know, when it comes to legal that's, that's somebody else that's deciding that, but the moral and ethical thing, there has to be a referee of, of at each individual company, or I suppose the things that you are the people that you are working with, you decide on what and who you want to work with, when it comes to on to those things, correct?

Karley Cunningham 05:50

Yeah, definitely.

Leighann Lovely 05:51

So tell me a little bit more about how, you know, how are you helping them? How are you helping those influencers of change? Change things, you know, what is your what is your business? What is your model? What is your?

Karley Cunningham 06:05

What's my thing? What's your thing? What's my thing? So for the past 20, something years, I have worked at the intersection of visual communications, sales and business development, marketing and branding. And so where I really fell in love in that journey was with developing company brands. Because it's easy to say I develop brands, but that could be a personal brand, that could be a product brand. That could be, you know, a brand name product. But what I really enjoy doing is working with business owners and leaders and their leadership teams to get clear on who they are, what they do, the value they deliver, to the right audiences for them, and how to differentiate themselves in crowded markets to effectively push themselves away from red ocean out into Blue Ocean Territory.

Leighann Lovely 07:02

Awesome. So you are you're self employed, you're the business owner, correct? have Big Bold Brands, and that you've been running now for that business has been in place for what, 14 and a half years? So you go out you work with them to figure out how do I either rebrand myself were properly brand myself or market myself. But there's, when we when we spoke, there was something that you had originally when we originally spoke you and you'd said something to me, that really resonated with me. And I know this because I wrote it down. And when I talk with people, I write down these things that like, all of a sudden, it's like a light bulb goes off. You said, it's not just about branding your business for, you know, externally. It's also branding your business internally. So tell me a little bit you know about that, because this really goes to, you know, you can you can tell people, Hey, here's who I am. But if you don't hold it close to the chest, or tell your internal employees, this is who we are. Are you really what you're telling the world you are?

Karley Cunningham 08:12

Often not? Right, right, because there's there's a gap. And I call that the brand gap. And it's always hard to illustrate with your hands on a podcast. But if you imagine, you know, holding up both hands, palms side down, and they're flat, you imagine one side being one side of the gap. And the other. The other side of the gap is, you know, what stories you want and believe your company to be and you want people to be telling be at your employees, be it your clients, be it your clients clients, you know, and what they're actually saying, How far is that gap? Is it a little Is it is it? Is it there no gap? Because everybody is doing so consistently? Is there a little gap? Because you know, there's always the telephone game, so to speak? Or is it a Grand Canyon sized gap? When we tell you having just done the Grand Canyon, that's a pretty big gap. So when we talk about in internal versus external brand, there's a couple of layers to that. So the internal brand is what it what is everyone internally believe the company to be? And I'm sure because of your background and what you do, you are well versed in the term HR brand. Well, here's the interesting piece for me. So I've worked in the if we're talking bigger organization, I've worked in the marketing side of things. And so you know, if you imagine circles making up all the departments, we're kind of in often times in opposing places on that larger circle at the company. And so typically what happens as a business grows, the brand gets formed either by an external party or by the internal party because someone's been brought in and marketing the company grows, someone like yourself gets added in an HR position, looks at the Glassdoor description goes, Oh, okay. So we need to work on that. We need to build an HR brand. That challenge I have with that is we've got to siloed brands and congratulations. Now we've got sometimes some polar opposite things going on. And in reality, when I talk about building a company brand from the inside out my methodology puts it in the leadership house and brings the leaders into the company to agree on. Why did we start this business? What is our purpose beyond making profit? What are our guiding principles? Right? Okay, our values, you know, what, what tools and measures are we using to determine that everybody's acting in alignment with the desired behaviors, and the guiding principles of our company. And when we talked about the business owners, and we get that tight in, when we're talking small to midsize businesses, especially people leave other businesses for their passion, much like I did. And for reasons of I left my business because I left the company that I was working for great agency, love the people. But quite simply put, I was starting a mountain bike race career, and my boss wouldn't give me the time off that I needed to improve my Canadian standing. So I was like, Well, this is interesting. And so I quit to follow my passion. And I started to freelance and then it's effectively led me down this path to building my own business. But the understanding of that is, I left for certain reasons, I bring myself to the business, I bring my own beliefs, my dreams, my passions, my ways of being and doing to the business. And if you simply take a business owner, or partners, or a leadership team, and you allow someone externally to brand them, like you would a product, we're going to do the market research, we're going to figure out where the gap is in the market, we're going to figure out how to how to, in a way manipulate the differentiation of this, and we're gonna wrap you know, the new beverage can in pink, because it's going to be for girls, 14 to 17, yada, yada, yada, right? The problem with that is, you can't do that to people, right, or you can't just find a gap in the market and tell them this is who they're going to be. And this is who they're going to work with. Because those those dreams, that passion, the ways of being and doing, they need to be that live that for them to authentically show up. And also for them to be able to actually do it. Right. So if you just wrap them externally, from the outside based on market statistics and data, I call that the itchy sweater, because you can sell it to them for a little bit but eventually having to live it becomes uncomfortable, it gets itchy,

Leighann Lovely 12:35

Right? Absolutely. How does one I guess then get them to choose to want to wear and I guess I'm going to take a tagline from the company I work at want to wear the company jersey. I mean, and show up in it every day, and play on their company team and do the rah rah

Karley Cunningham 12:59

Question. Yeah, great question. Well, we start with the leadership, whatever that looks like solopreneur like myself, moving into I was in a business partnership for a while. And ironically enough, the reason our company dissolved, even though it was growing was because we were values misaligned. So bring that leadership team or person to the table, and you go through the exercise of taking through in our method, it's called the surefire method. What's your purpose? Thanks, Simon. Sinek start with why. You know why, why? What gets you out of bed in the morning about this company, even on your worst days, you know, when the kids have had you up all night, or you've just felt I can see you smiling? You've been there at all? Have you ever had that happen? You know, in my case, the dogs had a rough night hate something on the trail. And of course, it could not come up at seven o'clock at night. It's always three in the morning. But on those worst days, you're feeling crappy. It's you know, I live on the west coast or the west coast, it's raining and you're just like, I really don't want to do this. But what why why get out of bed why go serve your clients, why go serve your customers why go make the widget the thing the whatever it is that you produce or service and we start there, we start with the heart of the company because the head can justify anything but the heart will always tell you you're wrong. And then we define the guiding principles we get into what is the character persona of the company and how do we want it to make people feel and I say it being almost this personified body beyond it's the agreed upon agreements of what is this company and I always tell character as describe it as imagine that we were going to send the company into it becomes a person you know that a little bit of Disney magic and it walks into the into the client party, the anniversary party, the whatever the trade show, how would it show up? And so then the other piece of that is the three to five year vision like where is this company? and going so talk to us about your dream, and then come back to three to five years, which is a neurologically, our brains can wrap itself around, it becomes real, be unlocked on the timeline spectrum, we can't really imagine anything beyond three to five years. So scientists say. So, we refer to those as the fundamental beliefs and truths of the business. And there are some other ones, but those are the real, intrinsic pieces. And so then when you say, okay, so we get clear on those. And then you say, Okay, well, how do we attract other people? Well, effectively, you're using those tools, as filters to hire your people. Do they believe what we believe? are they passionate about art? where we're headed? Does that get them excited? Do they believe in our purpose? Are they values aligned with us? Right? And do we feel like they could personify the character and make people feel the way we want them to feel?

Leighann Lovely 15:50

Well, and if you do everything that you just said, well enough, you have then created an entire workforce of people who are out advertising on your behalf. And I'm not talking about about the widget that you're creating, or the product that you're creating, I'm talking about advertising to come and work for you. Advertising that when you have an open job, and they're saying, you know, and you say, hey, and this is just an added kicker of, you know, we'll give you a $50 gas card. And right now, I could definitely use a 52 card. I could use a $2 gas card or anything to get that gas price down. Anyways. I mean, if a company would say, hey, we'll give you you know, a referral bonus to anybody. And now you've done everything, all of what you just said, properly, your, your employees now become your greatest asset, to finding people to come and work for you. Because if you are treating them, right, you they understand your vision, just as much as as you understand your vision, your path, your passion, all of all of the things, all of the things, then all of the sudden, it is that much easier to hire, because the people, your entire workforce has now become the advertisement of why they should work at that company. And you have 20, 30, 150, 1000 people saying, oh, you should come work at this company. It is awesome. The culture is great. They treat us like great people, they don't treat you like a number. And and then retaining people is that much easier because people aren't running out the door because they have, you know, they feel like a number. This is my area of expertise of, hey, treat people the way they should be treated. You want if you I'm so tired of people saying we have a hiring problem. Really, you have a hiring problem. How many people have you hired in the last six months? Well, we've hired 10. Okay, how many people have left? Oh, well, only three of them stuck, you don't have a hiring problem. You have a retention problem. And if you have a retention problem, you better be looking at your culture, you better be looking at your management, you better be looking at all the things because that hiring problem is not the problem. If you're hiring people, and they're leaving, you have a retention problem. And if you have a retention problem, you most likely have a culture problem.

Karley Cunningham 18:23

And a brand problem and a brand brand and culture egg chicken and egg. Yeah. And here's the other interesting piece, I'm just going to a couple things I want to pull on there just so it doesn't get missed. So it's not just enough to put those words down on paper. When you develop your purpose, your guiding principles, all those elements, you need to take them off the page, you need to put them into action. We call it integrating them within your systems and processes and activating them within your people. That's where the rubber really hits the road. And you're absolutely right. When that happens and people all It's so cheesy metaphor, put them all on the boat, and they'll all be you know, sitting in the right direction, rowing in the right cadence and know where they're going. Right? How many companies get siloed simply because they all believe something different about where they're headed, and what the what their purpose is that contributes to the bigger purpose. Yeah. And I agree with you on the retention problem part. What I'm starting to hear companies are doing is they're doing stay interviews, because people are throwing money around willy nilly right now because all I hear is oh, so and so is paying this much more and so and so is giving this amount of bonus just to get people to stay. Well, we know that after a certain percentage, because studies have shown that money isn't everything. Now money does talk but it's not everything. So what if you sat down with your staff if you have any fear of any one leaving or even maybe it's just your A players really like oh, if I was going to scoop them up because we know there's a lot of employees feeling going on right now. Do a stay interview that is going to give you that as the litmus test for is your brand what you believe it to be, hire an outside person to do it, even if it's someone, even if it's a VA make up the questions, have someone do stay interviews with your rockstars with or maybe with a sprinkling of people throughout each department and just read it, they'll tell you,

Leighann Lovely 20:21

Right, if in here that I am. So I've been in the industry, you know, my listeners know how long I've been in the industry and beating a dead horse and you know, a long time, a long time. And during my time of corporate HR, and when somebody came in and they gave notice, it was hands down, it was okay, we'll schedule your exit interview, figure out who you know, is going to sit in on that it was hands down. Because, again, I understand there was also this was before you know, 2008 when when the world decided that all of the sudden your team of you know for HR people is now only one HR person and that HR person has to do everything and it's like overwhelming for that person. And we've never recovered from that, ever. i It drives me crazy that we never The world never recovered from that. It there was a complete shift. Everybody got laid off that was in human resources. And departments never rehired those numbers back up to where they should be. Because there's way too much responsibility put on one person that is supposed to and then those people get burned out. And then they become mean. Not all of them. Not all of them. There's my little my little

Karley Cunningham 21:43

but it gets you but here's the other thing. One person can only handle policies and procedures and like the the admin stuff that is the eye drying, want to scratch my eyeballs out work well who's actually working on the culture? Right? And if your people are your greatest asset, hmm, expense or investment?

Leighann Lovely 22:04

Correct. Right. So, but during that time, it was it was an exit interview, why are you leaving us? You know, and you actually got feedback from these individuals, because one, you weren't treating them like a pariah for leaving. You were like, Hey, we genuinely want to know why you're leaving us. Now. It's like, okay, you're leaving us? Great. Boom, out the door. Bring in the next person. Why? You know, there are people who they give notice, and companies are like, they either say, Okay, we'll give you $5,000 More to stay. And they say no, I'm sorry, I'm still leaving. And they're like, Okay, fine. See you later, get out of here. Hey, stop doing stop treating people like that, like, well, you know, when you when you talk to companies, they're like, we just don't have time, we don't have time for it, we need we need to move on and find somebody else. Well, maybe if you shifted back to the way that it was, you wouldn't have as many people doing this, and you would find time to reinvest back into your people. And you won't have the turnover, you won't have the, you know, 25% turnover that you have. And that's, that's ridiculous, maybe you would have a 10% turnover rate versus the mean 25%. And think right now is being nice. You know, in some industries, the turnover rate, you know, on the production floor is 50%. You know, and the ones that do stay have been there for 15, 20 years

Karley Cunningham 23:36

And they're probably just too scared or comfortable to leave, right?

Leighann Lovely 23:39

Because that, because there have an I hate to call out an age group, but many of them are some of the older population, that that is what they did. They have been there, they're going to stay until they retire, they're not going to make a move. It's part of their generation, it's part of their that's what it's ingrained into them, they're going to write it out, no matter what. And that's it. And many of those may be also very highly compensated and are just they don't, they're not interested in leaving. So that's great. But you're never going to be able to retain the younger generation coming in if you're not treating them the way that the culture of the country now demands. And this has been a cultural shift. So I'm off on a rant let's bring this back to you talking and not me Yes, I do this I can

Karley Cunningham 24:37

I can rant too I got I got it. That's a real man and a few minutes probably.

Leighann Lovely 24:43

So now you you you go in you really focus in on that you know internal culture. So at any point or at what point do you say okay, now we've we've really honed in, we've got your internal culture working. I would have to assume that it's a pretty Quick and easy shift ago, okay, now, we've done all of the, I mean, it told me if I'm wrong, but now you've done kind of the back work to say, now you just have to flip this and make this your external culture.

Karley Cunningham 25:15

Yeah, I mean there's there's not even a flip. One of the diagrams that I came up with people are loving. And I say that almost shocked. I mean I knew it was you know, you test you test it okay I'm going to I'm a metaphor person. So sometimes my metaphors just don't land. And I'm married to someone who doesn't think in metaphor, so often they don't land and that's no criticism. It's just it's I know, I've hit a really good one when it when it lands, right, because different people think different ways. And I'm a visual thinker. And so my hope is, is that your, your audience, our listeners, they can visualize this. But so imagine that the brand is a watercolor pigment. And it's this beautiful bright color that you love. And so we've we've we've mixed the color, which is is your brand, it's has the all the alchemy of what colors we're going to add in there. And then you leadership is at the center of your company. And so every time we practice, living our brand and integrating it into our systems and activating it amongst our people, now imagine taking some of that pigment and dropping it in each department. So if we imagine that the departments are circles around that center circle, and they're doing the same thing, so every time those actions are happening, water is getting added. And so that pigment blends out from the inside out of each circle, as well as the leadership house. And then it fills up all the internal circles, because everybody's saying what we want and need them to say about us, everybody is taking actions that are aligned, they're going in the same direction. And so these beautiful colors or whatever color it is that you've chosen to be your brand colors, so to speak. It just it just naturally flows out of the company and influences everyone you touch.

Leighann Lovely 26:59

That's awesome. And I love the metaphor, by the way, because I'm thinking I'm, I'm an artist, I will fall, self proclaimed. I know that I'm actually an artist, my daughter loves my artwork, but I love you know, if you've ever watched paint do that, it is really cool in the way that it does it and to think of that, and the way that it would work at a company is that's really, it's very beautiful. Because it's also true, because you're right, you get it everybody flowing in the same way. And yes, this is exactly what we were just kind of talking about is that your people become your greatest asset and greatest sales tool. If you get everybody thinking and working in unison in the same way. So

Karley Cunningham 27:48

And so somebody somebody out there, you know, Italy, smart, intelligent question, or it's always the heckler in the room goes, What if your target audiences don't like the color you picked? Right. But that's the thing as you build these strategic tools, the ones I haven't talked about yet. So the internal tools in my diagram is our is our big bold brand we call the big bold brand raspberry. That is the purpose, the vision, the guiding principles, the character, and then we the next color we turned in the model, as you imagine a Jenga board moving its way up, is we actually change the next set of tack on tools to blue, because that's where we want to make a distinction that now we're talking about something that is external to the company. So defining the target audience profiles, we are making a conscious choice. So it can't just be all about us. But the foundation and the roots need to be about us and then where do we build from there. And that's where we go deep and understanding your ideal target audiences notice I didn't say ideal clients or ideal customers, because our business has touched so many more people than just the customers. So the next profile I always develop is your strategic partners now whether that be a partner that you need in a and what my coach calls a peanut butter and jelly partnership where you fit together and serve your clients really well. One almost needs the other to be that great tasting piece of Wonder Bread or pieces of Wonder Bread to stick together. But also where was I gonna totally distracted myself with the metaphor it must be after three and I'm I'm almost hungry but but looking at our referral partners it might be the the other companies who refer people who also work with your target audience. So are they working with them before after and sending them your way? So looking at all the the audience's in in sequential and priority order, and that it's at that point that we form that fine balance so for the smart aleck in the room or the smart person depending upon how they had set it in their head, you know, where they heckling me in their head out there and listener land but yeah, we're not going to pick hot pink if we've got an audience So that doesn't resonate with that color. Right? Find that fine balance between the two.

Leighann Lovely 30:04

Yeah, that's cool. That's, that's really, you know, I've never really thought of engaging somebody who's well, you don't? When you think of them putting a marketing plan you putting branding on something you don't think of that from an internal business position standpoint, right? You think of, oh, I'm going to brand my company and you think, Well, how does? How does? How's the world gonna look at us? You don't think that? How do we look at ourselves? How do we how do we present as you know, I don't want to say the low man on the totem pole. I hate that, you know, I'm, but if I'm the janitor, or I'm the machine operator, I'm not thinking of what our brand looks like. But for somebody to come in and say, okay, but we we want to engage you in how that looks for everybody. And then to how you know, to see that change and evolve. That that's awesome. That's really awesome.

Karley Cunningham 31:03

Yeah, it comes back to how do we want to make people feel? It's not just about the external people, right? If we think about the doers in the company, you know, how is how was the guy or gal on the loading dock, responding to those that are delivering your product? Right? That's kind of an important partner. Right? If they're the grumpy, Cranky person, and you're just, you know, the greatest, my biggest pet peeve on the HR side is, oh, that's just Sally. She's just like that she's been here 20 years, it's okay. She's just allowed to be cranky. You know, the exception to the culture rule where it even gets toxic. Oh, we know that she's a bully, but we just we just leave her over there on the shipping dock. Wow. I can't even tell you how many times I encounter that. Or the other one is the Yeah, but they're our greatest sales rep. Like they double everyone else's. Okay, but they're still in a hole. Right? How do you think that, like, if they're serving, like any more than everybody else, they're touching that many more people. Do you really want them out their

Leighann Lovely 32:09

Failure to act or address an issue? When somebody is. And I've, I've seen it happen, I have sat there and seen somebody act out in front of management's. And that manager has failed to correct behavior. And I'm not saying that the right action would have been to correct it in front of anybody. But they failed to even follow back up and correct. The negative behavior that happened in front of all of these other people, which tells all of those other people, that it's okay to act that way. Really, it's okay to say that, you know, XYZ, I hate salespeople. I, that's that's the one that I hear a lot. Because salespeople Yes, salespeople bring in the work. And if you're a worker B, you're gonna hate the salesperson, right? And the salesperson is coming back and saying, Hey, did you get this done? Because their client is asking them, when is my order gonna come out? I hear that constantly. Well, salespeople are such a pain in the butt. Now, salesperson needs to be courteous one they rely on. So if they are being a, an evil, yeah, they need to be then it needs to be addressed. It needs to be fixed. But on the flip side of that, the people who are constantly you know, hating on the salesperson because How dare that person bring me work? Well, yeah, that person stopped bringing you work, you wouldn't have a job. So there's, I mean, there's always that push and pull of, Hey, guys, like, just find a way to get and I say, find a way to get along. But sometimes it's not that simple, right? No, management needs to come in and be like, Okay, wait a second guys. Like really? Is Is he or she doing something that's that irritating? Like, I don't know, bringing you job? And really, salesperson? Is this person doing something? Really, that's, they're trying to do their job, but maybe XYZ is happening and they don't have the product? Or they don't have? Okay, another tangent? Okay, here's what I would really like to go. So you I mean, obviously, you what, 14 and a half years ago, you went out on your own but you made a comment about part of the reason that you would, you'd made that choice and it was because of something personal that happened in your life, you had decided that you had a passion for biking and and you had a boss that was not willing to work with you on that. And I kind of want to get a little bit more into your personal story. So yeah, tell me a little bit more about you know, about that what what was that driver that find the end? Was it scary? Because I mean going out on your own? And it's been a wild but yeah, tell me tell me a little bit more about that.

Karley Cunningham 35:10

What is it ignorance is bliss so so funny enough he I always say you have to look back and what are the what are the the sliding doors moment kind of kind of things. So So I had I ended a relationship and or it was ended I don't remember which now it was so long ago, but it came to an end. And so you know, what a women do they either go shopping or they cut their hair or they do both. And so I went shopping and I bought myself a truck. Right? I've always I've always been a tomboy. So I bought myself a truck. And I'm like, I need a toy for the back. Because what's the point of owning a truck other otherwise. And so it was kind of a toss up between a jetski or a mountain bike, and I didn't have dock access. I mean, there's lots of lakes in Ontario, but I didn't have dock access. So I was like, Well, how's that gonna work? Alright, leave it to me to always be practical. So, yeah, so I bought the mountain bike. And I started riding with the guys at the shop and I'm actually laughing in my head because I went out for the first ride and I was I fell so many times I flew over the handlebars, like he did every probably everything possible wrong. Bless the guys, they were so kind and patient with me. And I think because I was just so excited that they were just like, Okay, we'll just come along. And I think they had a few good laughs too, because I'm really good at throwing expletives around. So I was so bruised and battered. It was like I had baseball size or softball sized bruises on my on my legs. And the next week, I showed up in the mechanic of the shop who also came on the rise. He was missing the week before and he goes, Oh, are you? Are you here to get your bike fixed? I heard about your ride last week. I'm like, No, I'm here to ride. He's like, That's awesome. Like, they didn't think they would ever see me. Yeah. But I absolutely fell in love with mountain biking. And so long story short, just some was like you should try a race. I tried to race it was fun. And I met a couple of women in the race. And they're like, Oh, if you really enjoy this, you should check out this all women's team. And I ended up on that all women's team. And within a couple years I was I was moving my way up to the elite level, my first season I finished second in the province. And so there was some potential there, I've always been an athlete, I've always been a high performing athlete, and I do well with a training plan, I structure my business very similarly, a lot of the concepts that I use in my business, like you can throw me a great business concept, and I can understand it, but it doesn't. It almost like it goes in one ear out the other sometimes it bounces off my forehead, like I can get it but I don't it's it's not visceral retainment for me, but athletics is and that's. So I'll use training structures in my business, like you cannot go 100% All the time, you have to have a rest period and a down period. And so you can't always design that depending upon what kind of business you run. But you can recognize when you have a downtime, and it took me a lot of years to learn this, don't freak out. Enjoy your downtime. Because if you're good at what you do, and you're consistent with your marketing actions, and you deliver a great product or service, that word of mouth is going to work for you. I mean, you can't just sit around and do nothing. But you can you can back off the pedal a little bit. Right. And so yeah, so I eventually moved west to improve my Canadian standing. And then I prompt myself promptly burnt myself out with Adrenal Fatigue within I probably had it. But I got here and my body literally gave out on me. It was like nah, not playing anymore. Sorry. No. So, yeah.

Leighann Lovely 38:52

So when all of this was happening, you were working. And you were training or did you did you take time off work?

Karley Cunningham 39:03

Yeah. So, you know, that was always one of my pet peeves in the race scene, is you had some of these really talented university students who, you know, they ended in May, they picked up their training mum and dad paid the tab for them to drive all over the country. And mum and dad's really nice car or fly and paid for their hotels. And here I was working. At that point before I quit my job before I drove West. I was working 40 hours a week. So I was up at five driving to the place where I worked, which was about 45 minutes away, meeting my coach either at the gym or to go for a ride, showering, changing, working an eight hour day leaving and if I hadn't written that morning, I was getting on my bike where I was going to the gym. And so I was training five to six days a week. Wow. So I wonder why. Renal fatigue.

Leighann Lovely 39:57

So not so I'm not familiar with what had Adrenal Fatigue is was that permanent?

Karley Cunningham 40:04

Um, so if you imagine your adrenals, that the adrenaline is a to my understanding, and someone's probably going to be like, You're so wrong, but in because I'm a visual thinker, I envision my adrenals, like, a container with adrenal fluid. Yeah, probably totally wrong. But that's how it was explained to me in a way. And, you know, it's like burning through the gas in your car. And if you're not putting gas back in, well, then eventually it just doesn't drive. And so how it came about, for me, some of the symptoms were interesting. When it was full on for me, I would go out for a training ride, I would get a cold or a flu, or, you know, my body was just no and my, I wasn't doing enough stretching, so everything was super tight. And I was 26 years old, and my back would cease up. And I would have to get pretty much helped out a bed and walked around the block in the morning. Like, there's like an 86 year old. And it was just, you know, lack of knowing lack of know how back in the day, it was training women like they were small men, which doesn't work because we have very different compositions and very different hormones. So yeah, it was a bit of a nightmare. I do now have to be careful how hard I push myself physically and even just in the business. And what was interesting is adrenal fatigue wasn't a recognized problem by Western medicine. Oh, back when I had it, they were like, oh, yeah, that's just a myth. And then research started to happen. And so the only place I could have if I could have afforded it, because keeping in mind that I'm now paying to travel myself across the country, to race, I'm driving all over the place on weekends. So you know, seeing a naturopath they were pretty much the only people who were treating our practitioners that were treating it at the time. But fast forward 10 years after that, I started seeing entrepreneurs with adrenal fatigue.

Leighann Lovely 41:57

Right. Interesting. So this is not just, this isn't just a sports thing. This is actually Oh, wow. Interesting. I mean, you know, I, I suppose I've heard I've heard of it. I've never, nobody's ever actually explained like, well, this is what it is. But I mean, that's, that's really interesting.

Karley Cunningham 42:20

Yeah, so you fight, fight or flight, right? Your your adrenals fire, when there needs to be a fight or flight. And so entrepreneurs are always hustling, they're always moving. They're always firefighting, they're working ridiculous hours. I've heard entrepreneurs say, I haven't taken a holiday in eight years, right? I'm like, Excuse me, what? Winter down season,

Leighann Lovely 42:41

Right? We all need that. You know, here's interesting. I've always been a huge milk drinker. And when I was really young, I had a bone density test. And I was told that you you really need you should take calcium, you should you should take a lot of calcium, and I know that my grandmother had problems with her bones and, and then when I was in basic training, I started having problems with and this was put, this is potassium, but I also saw I started having really bad, you know, you wake up and you're like your muscles completely. Like, seized. Well, I started really having problems with that when I was in the military. And then I had I had shin splints. I was I was an athlete and in high school and everything. I was a soccer player. I always had shin splints. Well, one was in basic training. And somebody explained this to me during the day, you know, you shed bone you shed you know, all these different things at night when you rest is when your body rebuilds or regrows your bone mass, all of this other stuff and they said if you don't get enough sleep at night and solid sleep, you don't sleep it can do very harmful damage to that cycle. Well, I had shin splints really bad in the military, they started coming back and I wasn't sleeping properly. I you know, you're 17 years old, you're in a completely crazy environment. Though shin splints eventually turned into shin splints to stress fractures, eventually to an actual break in my out bone. And when I came back, they did a nuke med scan. And I have never in my life, like they're like, oh, so the hotspots are all lit up. And I'm like, what the whole thing's lit up and on the lower extremities and they're like, Yeah, you really shouldn't be walking. I'm like, You got to be kidding me. My hips I have now permanent bursitis and bilateral hips, my knees my patellas were swollen, the tops of my feet. All of them had stress reactions. So it's it's no joke like when your body when you're not properly taken care of, and I'm 17 years old. I do didn't realize that, you know, this is happening. And you, you're in basic training, you can't go, you can't go to him and be like, Yeah, I think I need some calcium, you know, it's just not something you do

Karley Cunningham 45:14

Excuse me, can I go to the pharmacy, please?

Leighann Lovely 45:15

Right? Be like, What is wrong with get get back, you know, information and

Karley Cunningham 45:22

Fall in line soldier.

Leighann Lovely 45:24

Right fall in line. But I mean, it was I was in physical therapy for, you know, for almost a year, you know, I'm still I still have problems with my hips, because of, you know, because of that time period. But it's no joke you, your your body. It does try to give you signs, it's just them. We

Karley Cunningham 45:44

Oh, it'll scream at you all day long. You just need to learn to listen. So I So here's, here's an interesting one. And I'm going to bring it back to an equation that I think helps anybody in any given time, but the Oh, my God in learning your body is sometimes like what signals it's sending you. I know that if I'm craving salt, and soda pop, I, I'm dehydrated. I haven't had enough water right now that's counterintuitive. Why would it be craving salt? Well, because salt retains water within your body. Right? Right. So all these nerdy things you learn when you're an athlete, but overall, what we're both saying is paying attention to your body. And there's a great equation, stress plus rest equals growth. So no stress and all rest, no growth. All stress, no rest, no growth. And that comes out of a great book, if anybody is interested in performance. And it's actually a business book written by one of the top like, he trains marathoners, he's a he's a running coach, and then also by a business professional, and it's called peak performance. And it does exactly what I've been doing for years is taking principles from sport and applying them to business or and applying them to personal success. Right? It's a brilliant book.

Leighann Lovely 47:03

Interesting. Well, and that's it, why not take why not take something that I mean, the discipline that it takes somebody in, in sports to become a, you know, effective athlete, and high performing athlete, it's the same mindset. It's just like golf. And I'm not a golfer. So I can't speak to personal experience. But I live amongst golfers, my, my dad, my brother, it's one of those and I tried to golf at a very young age, and I want to start golfing again, because I think I can do it now. Because I am a very focused and you know, it's the same thing with it's a mind game. It's not about how strong you are to hit that ball. It all it's not about, you know, swinging the hardest, it's not about being powerful. It all comes down to your concentration, your ability to control, and, you know, be precise and to hit properly and to it's patience, that it has absolutely nothing to do with a powerful swing. And yes, of course, if you have a stronger swing, you could maybe hit it a little bit harder. But

Karley Cunningham 48:11

You still have to play well. It's interesting because I played the junior tour because I looked up to my grandfather, and he was a golfer. And so he gave me a book or maybe it was a VCR tape. videotape. Remember those things? Yes. But it was it was it was all about playing smart goal, right? So it doesn't you I mean, you can smack the crap out of that ball. But if you're not paying attention to everything that's going on, knowing where your next lie is thinking two shots ahead. You know, it's it's about playing smart,

Leighann Lovely 48:38

Right? And any sports is. Same with soccer. If it's not, you're not just running to get the ball and then kick it you have to be thinking about once I get the ball, which direction am I going and who is going to be open? Am I going to take it directly to the goal? Am I going to look for the next open pass? Am I going to you know, you have to be that's any sports. It's the same thing with any business that you're in, especially in a sales role, especially in you know, I'm not just calling somebody to be like, Hi, I'm Leanne. How are you today? Oh, good. Okay, well, this was a great call. You know, you I'm sorry. I'm in sales, obviously. So, you know, it's

Karley Cunningham 49:19

Awesome. I was about to start playing along with you.

Leighann Lovely 49:23

But you know, you're calling and being like, hey, you know, and you can't, you have to have a flow, you have to have a purpose. You have to have a hook that somebody's like, oh, I want to talk to you so that they don't immediately be like a sales call. Okay, great. Yep. By and hang up on you. You have to give value. And you have to know, you know, as the salesperson calling, you have to know when to pivot. If that person is all of a sudden, like, Yeah, this isn't valuable. Otherwise, you're gonna get hung up on what for the most case I don't get hung up on because I'm calling business business. It's more hung hanging up on people when you're

Karley Cunningham 49:54

Cool, but it's also about building your relationship. Correct? Correct. Right.

Leighann Lovely 49:59

Absolutely. 100% in any business, it's about building relationships in any contact. And that's different than a way, the way that it was 15 years ago, 15 years ago, it was a lot more about the more transactional, hey, let's get this deal done and go our separate ways. Maybe, maybe a little bit more like 20 years ago, 15 years ago, we were going more towards the relationship 10 years ago, a lot more towards the relationship five years ago, it was like, how do we become friends, you know, and get business done today. It's like, Let's hang out, get to know each other. And if we like each other, let's do some business.

Karley Cunningham 50:43

Yeah, absolutely. And let's talk about how it's gone so far the other way. I've seen a couple posts lately, but the one that stands out, the most to me, is a business owner who's been who's been ranting, and rightly so on LinkedIn about some of the sit like she's like, What do you people do all day besides stalk me, she goes, I have so many bad reach out sales. Like I have to shut off my social media, like my business thrives off social. But now I get spam so much by people trying to sell me stuff that I can't even be on social media. And she posted one the other day that somebody stalked all of her profiles, and wrote her an email, just like, hey, how's your cat fluffy, or, you know, insert cat's name? Like they had looked up her pets names, and that was kind of their opening line. And she's like, now I feel threatened. Like, now you're like, that's creepy. Now, sure, it gets to me. Oh, yeah,

Leighann Lovely 51:47

That would creep out. Right? Yeah. Well, it it creeps me out. When I mentioned to my husband, hey, do we need to buy a new vacuum cleaner? And then like three different options of vacuum cleaners pop up on my cell phone? I'm like, What the hell's going on? I'm like, somebody's in our house listening.

Karley Cunningham 52:03

But it's true. Well, even the phone lines I called about we need our washer fixed. I called yesterday. And I said, I booked the appointment. And I said, Oh, do you need my address? She goes, Oh, no, I can see that you're at xx x road. And then I said, Oh, you probably knew my note unit number. She's like, No, I know what unit number I'm like, Whoa, what?

Leighann Lovely 52:23

Right? It's creepy. It's, it's very creepy. So

Karley Cunningham 52:28

Why are we talking about being human? Right? The world is moving so far away. You know, it's almost coming full circle, like it's gone. So, so much to being everybody was a number in the 70s in the 80s. Then it became about personal relationship. And now we're coming that full circle where AI is making it creepy again, right? Like it's humanizing thing. So it's, you know, life's about being human.

Leighann Lovely 52:51

And that's, it's, it's funny, because my generation was the generation of let's take pictures of our, of our dicks and send it to people. And then we all got, you know, we got burned for that, right? Well, I don't have that. So I, I didn't get personally burned for that. But I am of that stupid, idiotic generation of, hey, let's be idiots and send dick pics. Sorry, yes. I love that. Now, the younger generation goes, holy crap. Who are these idiots that were in front of us? I'm never doing that. And they've gotten wildly private on social media. So there's a whole younger generation that are not on Facebook. They're not taking. I mean, I'm sure they take some stupid selfies and stuff like that. But they're not taking pictures, inappropriate pictures of themselves because they've learned from us. Thank God. Thank God, they learned from us. So they're, they're not being you know, so now we are flipping to the other, like the other side going back to anonymity? Correct. They're realizing, Oh, I shouldn't tag where I am, when I'm a 17 year old or 16 year old or 18 year old girl. Because that actually could cause somebody to figure out where I am. And maybe it could be a bad thing. Whereas my generation's like, Oh, let me tell you where I'm at. And, you know, I'm here now. And gee, that do you think that maybe he's not agree? Oh,

Karley Cunningham 54:22

I had my lesson with being stalked by an unknown number by an unknown person. And it was terrifying. And it just happened to be at a point where I was living on my own

Leighann Lovely 54:34

Right. And I and I used to, I never used to do that. I was not on Facebook. I never used to take pictures. I never posted them. And my friends always were like, Why aren't you on Facebook? And I'm like, I have an account. I choose not to take pictures everywhere. I am a single woman who lives alone. Why would I put where I am? Why? I don't need to put pictures of my dinner. Nobody gives a shit what I'm eating. Again. Sorry. Anybody out there? Who was thing is that

Karley Cunningham 55:02

Apologize to other foodie listeners today?

Leighann Lovely 55:07

Yes. Okay, we are at time because we have gone off on a random weird tangent. So the question of the season? Yes. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself,

Karley Cunningham 55:24

Take more chances and fail fast?

Leighann Lovely 55:29

And what age would that be? That you gave that advice to?

Karley Cunningham 55:33

I would, I would say, when I started my business, I would say in my mid 20s, I mean, you spend so much of your younger life, remember that ignorance is bliss part? Absolutely, you know, hopefully got some parents to put some bumpers on the lanes for you. But you know, as as a young woman, you stepped in, you transition from awkward teenage pneus into womanhood. And then society puts all these expectations on you, and all these shoulders on you, and all the end and all these barriers on you. Trust your gut, go after what you want. Fail fast, you know, take more chances.

Leighann Lovely 56:08

That's awesome. That's That's brilliant. And I agree. Feel fast. bounce back quickly, quicker.

Karley Cunningham 56:16

Yeah. And when you win, celebrate the wins, dammit. Women are so good at being like, oh, no, no, I didn't deserve that. You know, I've raised I've congratulated women for running incredible races where they've won. Well, they could have had a better day or that like they did.

Leighann Lovely 56:33

Right? The time could have been better. And you're like, wait, wait, you, you just you just ran a marathon, my girlfriend? My one girlfriend runs marathons. And I'm like, Why do you do this? And at the end of every race, she's like, I don't know why I do this.

Karley Cunningham 56:49

There's a certain running and writing distance where you get to the end, you're like, why do I do this? Right? You lose your why? Because your body's like, I'm so done with you.

Leighann Lovely 56:57

Right? Right. I, hey, two miles. That's my max. Like, and I did that only because I had to I was in the military. And it was like, you have to run two miles. Okay, great. I think it was at the time that I was, you know, required to do this. I did it in 17 Min. And I'm going to I'm going to boast about this in 17 minutes. And I think it was 58 seconds on a broken leg.

Karley Cunningham 57:18

Nice. So oh,

Leighann Lovely 57:22

I didn't know it was broken at the time that I started running, of course. But after I hit the finish line, I collapsed, at which point then they took me to med and med said, Here's your X Ray and I went with shit. It's broken. Yes, it is. You probably shouldn't walk on it. Probably should have told me that before I read the two miles but I won't anymore.

Karley Cunningham 57:44

Okay, point to my resilient my resilience comment, right? Like, just just go for it. Yeah, you're more resilient and you think you are.

Leighann Lovely 57:52

You can do anything you put your mind to.

Karley Cunningham 57:55

Absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 57:57

If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that? And

Karley Cunningham 58:02

you can find me on LinkedIn. That is the place which I socialize the most. So Carly Cunningham and gets Carly is spelled K A R L E Y. And Cunningham is just like you expect it to be. and my website is big, bold brand.com

Leighann Lovely 58:18

Excellent. And I will have that in the show notes as well. So anybody can amazing there and check it out. So thank you so much. This was an awesome conversation. I truly

Karley Cunningham 58:26

So much fun. Hopefully those have left along with us. Yes.

Leighann Lovely 58:32

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/karleycunningham/

E-mail – karley@bigboldbrand.com

Wedsite – https://www.bigboldbrand.com/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, business, brand, company, call, leaving, shin splints, person, salesperson, problem, culture, bit, treating, guiding principles, years, adrenal fatigue, purpose, hr, work, imagine

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Julie Miller Davis is a lifelong educator, that took a different direction when she wanted to dedicate more time with her family and eventually found her way back into education on a different platform. She now runs her own successful business owner, as a speaker, and productivity training with JMD.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:06

It's gonna be a great conversation today. I have a award winning productivity and efficiency expert Julie Miller Davis, she brings a fresh perspective on avoiding overwhelm and reaching goals in an intentional manner. She trains business owners how to live and work their highest level of efficiencies, guiding her clients to reset to patterns of excellence, leaving mediocracy in the dust. Julie's out of the box thinking knowledge on how to say yes to what is important, and no to what is not an ability to help and help regain control of your pursuit of your goals makes her one to watch in the world of productivity, prioritizing and efficiency. Her background in teaching, leadership and entrepreneurial ship has shaped her into an expert speaker and trainer she is today. Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm excited to talk with you.

Julie Miller Davis 02:13

Thank you for having me, Leighann. I've been looking forward to this for a long time.

Leighann Lovely 02:17

So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Julie Miller Davis 02:20

Um, so I am Julie Miller Davis, that's my professional name. It came about quite accidentally because Julie davis.com was not available. So my husband I started bouncing around what it could be and and trying all these different things on the URLs and and so then I just put in my middle name and it became JMD productivity training and now a lot of people call me JMD. And so it's pretty, it's pretty funny. But no, I am, I was a high school teacher. I grew up in Breckenridge, Colorado. And I've always been a Colorado girl except the two years that I left my first few years teaching and to high school English for almost 20 years before having my son and then left teaching to teach to raise him and when he went to school, just started figuring out what else was out there and eventually landed at a place where I could still teach but not be involved in politics or having a boss or a bell schedule or anything like that. And took a lot of the concepts and principles that I used in my classroom, as well as at a leadership ranch that I volunteered at for 20 years and melded them into a curriculums and different things, programs and classes that I put together for entrepreneurs and women business owners, mostly women, business owners, a few good men, and mostly women.

Leighann Lovely 03:56

Awesome. That's great. So you started out as you said, What grade were you teaching? High School?

Julie Miller Davis 04:04

So nine through 12?

Leighann Lovely 04:05

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's awesome to be able to go from, you know, high school kids to now, adults, which I'm sure was definitely an interesting transition, because, you know, you've got the young minds too. Now, you've got people who are already kind of, I guess, that would be really different people who are already kind of set in their ways.

Julie Miller Davis 04:31

That's true. Yeah, that's true. And, um, you know, in my introduction, you talked about that I reset people's habits and patterns, they can get the right things done and so, um, yeah, set in your ways is why a lot of us are stuck or in trouble or not doing the things that we should be doing and so it's digging into that and setting setting new habits around it. We don't I don't really believe we ever break habits, their habits, right? They're ingrained in us we can, we can form new ones. And when the old ones rear their ugly heads, we can say, hey, I don't, I don't do that like that anymore. This is what I do now. But yeah, the interesting thing is, you know, kids, they're, you know, they're there a lot of times a hostile audience, right, they have to be there. And they do have to learn what you teach them, because they are going to have a test at the end. But, you know, working with entrepreneurs has just been fantastic. Because most entrepreneurs are hungry, to learn, hungry to improve, and for information, and so sometimes to their detriment, you know, it's kind of we are, we're learning, learning ourselves to death without implementation. And my company is all about implementation. And so it's a, it's not teaching necessarily, brand new information. It's more about how can I help reset your patterns, and your habits so that you can actually implement all these great ideas, and all these great concepts and all these great things that you have been gathering? And do something with all that information?

Leighann Lovely 06:17

Right, you make such a valid point, there, we there are a lot of people out there who say, Well, I'm a lifelong learner, I love to learn, I love to learn, but what is the point of learning all of this information, if it's simply going to be stuck in your head, and then never put to work in the real world if you never implement that, so I could, I could go out and read every single book and retain all of that information, but it means nothing. If I never use that information, to better myself to like, I could go read emotional intelligence 100 times over. But if I just simply read it, and don't truly, you know, take that information in and then try to, you know, utilize that information for my own benefit, right. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't mean anything. Right. Right. So wow, that's, that's awesome. That's, that's amazing. So you are in and you mentioned this, I've mentioned this already, but you're the co founder of JMD.

Julie Miller Davis 07:21

Productivity training?

Leighann Lovely 07:23

Yes. Let me say that, again, you are the founder of JMD. Productivity training. Tell me how you, you know, you and you kind of said this, but tell me how you started it. But what was the main driver that really said, hey, I want to do this, I want to go out on my own, I want to start a business. You know, what was the trigger that because it's hard, it's really hard. It is hard, it's very hard.

Julie Miller Davis 07:53

It's very hard. And if you're in the right space, and doing the right thing, it's also very fun, right? Because you are hopefully pursuing something that you love. And for me, so then what I did before this is I had a home based business, you know, selling a product, and growing a team and all of that. And what I love the most about that was my team and leading them and helping them and teaching them. And what also happened was there were other leaders in my organization that kept coming to me and asking me how I was doing what I was doing working, I was only working three days a week because my son was in elementary school, the whole point of the whole thing was that I would have some income to supplement for our family while raising our son. And through elementary school, especially because you know, once they get to middle and high school, you never really see them much. So I just started really thinking about how when I was going to these leadership retreats and things and doing these trainings on basically calendaring is where it all started. I started really thinking about the fact that I did not want to sell, you know, do these home parties and sell products. I mean, that's not my end game. It was something to get my son through elementary school and to and to supplement our income. But I really started listening to people around me, women because I was networking mostly with women. I was hearing this pain point of I'm so busy, I'm stuck. I'm I'm can't I'm trying to do all the things and I can't get anything done. You know, I just kept hearing these same phrases over and over and over again. And I'm so stressed out I'm not sleeping like you know all the things. And so I started thinking about it. How the fact that the way that I operate on a daily basis is not how most people operate. And, you know, we never know, sometimes we don't know, we have gifts that we have, right? And so not that I'm perfect, I want to be perfectly clear to all the listeners, I have all kinds of slips where I have to look at myself and say, Okay, what would I tell myself to do here? Because I am underwater at the moment, you know, and so, um, but I just really I, and I, as as my background is, as a teacher, I am I am a teacher at heart, it is not something I did it is it is truly like who I am. And so how can I use that gift of being a teacher? And the gifts that I had around prioritizing, and around proactive thinking? How can I use that to create something to help help women do things differently? And, and so I just started digging into how I read. The Seven Habits of Highly Effective teens is something that I taught for a long time. So how did I take that, and turn it into something for entrepreneurs. Without it, you know, a twist on it, and parts of it. And then I had some other other trainings that I had been through that I wanted to integrate into my curriculum. And so I created a curriculum for a program. And, then other things were born out of that, but it's, it's been a journey, and definitely a journey. But it's been amazing and has allowed me all kinds of freedom, and, and has helped so many women and men change, change how they do things.

Leighann Lovely 12:01

So let me ask you this part, in your training, what are some of the key things that you hit on? You know, you're talking about helping men and women get, you know, kind of unstuck. And in that curriculum and without giving obviously, I don't want you to, you know, give away your your product, give away your your trainings, but what are some of the key things that you

Julie Miller Davis 12:23

Um, well, one of the things that we do is, is largely around calendar with a lot of people come to me in the, in the beginning for calendar. And it's because they're, they have no system, really, of how they're going about, or they have this full calendar, and they have this to do list of things that need to get. And so how, how are these things going to get done when my calendar is booked from eight to eight, you know? And so a lot of the work I do is around number one, how do we create space in the calendar, so that you have room to breathe room to take a break room to do some of these things on your to do list. And then, um, I don't know if you've heard my my talk, one of the talks I give is all around prioritizing with power. And so I talked about the it's basically about navigating your to do list, because the to do list is never done. There's always one more thing to do. And, and so that task list taking that and how do we integrate it with the calendar? But also how do we decide what's important and what's not. And I have my 3d system, have the do it, delegate it or dump it. And anyone who's heard me talk can will roll that they're like, Oh, I heard Julie talk six years ago, do delegate dump. Right, like so that's one of the core principles, but then we also really dig into the habit of proactivity. And how are we proactive? How can we actually do things differently than we've been doing them? And what part are we playing in being in our own stuckness in our own way, and identifying that and helping people unravel that because we're in it, and when you're in it, you can't, you can't see it? You know, it's like being so close to a tree in the forest that you can't see your feet and can't see the path. And so it's a lot about that. Yeah, and that's, that's such a true statement. Other people can see, other people can recognize, but you yourself are completely unaware. And it's amazing how easy it is to fall down that path to to become completely paralyzed because of the amount of things that you and you would think, well, you've got so many things to do is to just start chipping away at them.

Leighann Lovely 14:47

Right? But you become so overwhelmed and so stressed out that all of a sudden you're like, I don't even know where to begin. Where do I start? I just And unfortunately, that is that is a real thing is completely real thing. Wow. Okay, so let's let's talk about now you have you have a team of you. So let's, let's talk about that how many, how many people are on your team.

Julie Miller Davis 15:14

Um, I have six people on my team, I have three that are monthly, like on a monthly stipend with me. And then I've got three others who areon an as needed basis, like my event planner, although I do meet with her probably every single month. And then I've got a photographer and I've got a videographer that are kind of my as needed basis. And they're, they're definitely involved in a lot of things in my business. But the three that are my staples that I really can't live without, are my my virtual assistant, my assistant, I don't even call him right, but she's just my assistant, but she lives far away. And my project manager, and my web slash, social media, marketing.

Leighann Lovely 16:09

So you know, it's one thing to be, you know, a solo ponuer, but it's a whole nother thing to go out on your own and then build a team. And then to keep that team happy. And to work with the mix, especially when it comes to a virtual team, having a Virtual Employee anywhere, you know, being able to work and to have them be an assistant is extremely difficult. Because typically, those individuals have to be very, very in tune with, with you, you have to be very in tune with them understanding, you know, what you need, understanding what you have to get. So, how did you go about building this team? And how do you continue to keep a cohesive working team together?

Leighann Lovely 16:09

Awesome.

Julie Miller Davis 16:09

Yeah.

Julie Miller Davis 16:58

It's a good question. Um, no, I think there's a lot of a lot of people who work with me are doing it everything on their own. And by the time they're done working with me, they are ready to delegate, they're ready to hire. But they've also figured out if if anyone takes my my free challenges that I run a couple times a year, they figure out, there's a lot of things they can delegate that doesn't, it doesn't cost him money to delegate, they can, you know, there's people that live in your house, a lot of times that you can but there's also other things that you can get off your plate without having to pay anybody a huge amount of money, you can pay your neighbor's daughter to do some of these things, or whatever, you know, babysitting money, kind of kind of stuff. But um, you know, I started out I think my business was, I want to say a year old. When I hired really hired, I hired a gal earlier and that my neighbor's daughter, I hired to do some CRM stuff where she was inputting just inputting emails for me into my CRM, but I hired a gal just, you know, $300 at a time, and when that $300 ran out, she said, hey, it's time to re up, we've used your 10 hours, or whatever it was that we were, you know, using them. And I would just, I just kind of kept her on retainer that way, but not monthly, it was just kind of hourly. And about a year after that, it was every month, I'm paying you this much money to do the work and, she was really my only person besides just web maintenance that I had, and I had to have web payments, and oh, no, I also had a social media. I started out as someone who just was posting one time a week, it was not very much money. And then I a year after that went to someone who posted three times a week and then changed over to another gal now who does all my marketing, she does my ads, she does my social, she manages you know, all kinds of things in my, in my marketing world. And what I want to stress is that, and I don't have the same assistant anymore, I outgrew her, and what I needed was no longer what she did. She's like, you know, and she wanted to because she loves me. She's like, Yeah, I can do that. And then it wasn't happening. And I'm like, Yeah, you know, I just think that you wanted to say yes to me, because you love me and we have a great relationship. And it's time it's time for us to part ways and it was with love. Like there was no damage to the relationship. It was I needed something different and something more and so, um, and then when I got this year I I hired my project manager. My life is like, oh, you know, I'm like, Hey, guys, can we do this and like, oh, already done. We talked yesterday. I'm like, my team, but I what you brought up was about how it's all about communication it's all about first of all, are the people you're hiring in alignment with what you deem as important is their definition of excellence, the same as your definite definition of excellence is their definition of communication, the same as your definition of communication. And I'm, I'm high in communication, if you're low in communication, you probably need to hire someone high and communication, because otherwise, you're going to be frustrated, they're going to be frustrated, and it's not going to work. But I really think Leighann, if you can run a team in such a way that you're also involving them with each other, and you're taking yourself out as the middleman sometimes, and let them create relationships and trust with each other. And then if they have questions come to you, and you meet with them, I meet with each of my team members. Two of them, I meet once a week, one of them I meet once a month, and then the three of them meet once a month. And sometimes I'm called into that meeting. Sometimes I'm not, you know, but there's constant communication. And, and we use a tool, we use Slack to communicate as a team, so the emails don't get lost because emails get lost. So now we've got all of our communication in one spot. And it's amazing. And it's an it's a journey, like, I'm, I'm in my eighth year of business. And so you know, Patience, my friends is the key. And learning from your learning, and being willing to let people go when it's time to let them go and let yourself grow when it's time to grow.

Leighann Lovely 21:47

That's awesome. And you're right, communication is 100%. Key, if you don't know what the right hand, you know, if the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, you're gonna fail 100% of the time. Yeah, right. So yeah, you, that's awesome. That's absolutely awesome, too. It's a rarity to be able to find a team. That works. So, you know, awesome, together all of the time and be be able to, excuse me, and be able to, you know, understand each other understand how each other works. It's becoming more and more common. Now, people are working virtually. And so is your whole team. Virtual yeah, my whole team is virtual. Awesome. Yep.

Julie Miller Davis 22:41

I have one in Ohio. One in Wisconsin, one in Washington. Yep. And then my videographer and my photographer here in Colorado Springs. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's great. So one in Wisconsin, Hey, 111. Here, and then my states? Yes. So my, my event planners in Utah? Yeah, I have them all. Everywhere. But you know, the other thing, I think land for everybody to get along. And and for the team to communicate well together? It really it will come from people's leadership. So it comes from number one, have you or have I given each person? What what is the expectation of, of their role in the company? Like, what? What is their? What is their bubble? And what is someone else's bubble? And a lot of times, they're very good at asking questions. I'm like, I never never get mad. If you ask me a question like, hey, is this something I should be doing? Can we have a call, because I'm not really sure if this is my job or such as those job. And so, you know, there's they're always very open to asking questions. And I'm open to the questions. And then, you know, going back to the other thing that I said, if you are hiring people, because you have, again, that clear definition of what is x, what are your values? Are they in alignment with those values? What is your definition of how of excellence in your company? And are they going to serve in that way? You know, and I am very blessed that my team is is the way they are because it's not and when I brought my project manager in, I wasn't sure you know, now that someone else is giving some directives. How's that gonna go? And it went so well. And I and I know it doesn't always right. And I think I've laid so much foundation, it really helped.

Leighann Lovely 24:40

And you said something that I think is extremely important for people to understand alignment. You have to make sure after you've set down your expectations and you've sat down what your needs and wants are, is that person in alignment with you? Do they you know, are their goals are there extra? Rotations are their needs once, you know, for the direction that they want to, you know, go moving forward in alignment with you. And I think that, you know, if that all is is lining up for everybody on the team, then then yeah, it makes sense. And everybody's going to be going or rowing in the same direction. It's when somebody all of a sudden decides, no, I think we should be doing this, that, you know, it stops working. And that's when you know, you have to be aware that maybe it is time for that person to move on or, you know, grow to another role. Because you're not going to be able to continue to all move in the same direction all the time. Eventually, people do want to maybe move on grow, or, but it's great to have everybody right now rowing in the right direction. And hopefully, for the long term, right. That's, that's everybody's dream is to continue to do that together.

Julie Miller Davis 25:58

Right. Yeah. And, and, and it's not always realistic, either, that we'll all be together, you know, right, ever. And people outgrow people and or the Yeah, are they just decide to go on to a whole other direction any like from teaching high school students owning their own business?Like that.

Leighann Lovely 26:25

So you're you are, you're also a speaker for the women entrepreneurs. And on your LinkedIn post, it says that you are an out of the box thinker with real world pragnatism so tell me about that. What does that mean?

Julie Miller Davis 26:33

So it kind of goes back to what we said earlier today, where I'm, I'm on the outside looking in. And so it's, it's that whole thing, where how many times are you going to try to do the same thing over and over in the same way and get an expect to get a different result, right sanity, and sanity. Um, and it's my job to first of all, be able to look at it from an outside perspective and help start asking questions that will solve the problem that will get you through the wall, or whatever it is that you're up against and to teach you how to do that for yourself, to teach these entrepreneurs how to do that for themselves. And so my out of the box thinking is really about bringing in a new perspective that kind of takes that 30,000 foot view or whatever you want to call it. And, and because of the way that I am that I problem solve, because of the way that I teach people to problem solve, I'm able to look at things from different angles in and, you know, again, it's not rocket science, and it's not where I can't believe how many times people say to me, Oh, well, this seems so simple. Why can't I Why couldn't I just see it? And I'm like, well, it is simple. And it's not simple. And I talk about this stuff, every single day, like, this is my job.

Leighann Lovely 28:11

Right? Sometimes the most obvious things are the hardest things to see.

Julie Miller Davis 28:16

Yeah. You're not looking at it every day. I'm looking at it. I'm looking at it and talking about it every single day. And so, you know, through eight years, I'm I'm better and better at it. Because it's, it's what I eat, you know, live and breathe, right? It goes back to the old you know, have you ever walked into somebody's house and you notice, you know, there's paint peeling on the wall, or there's, you know, hole in the carpet? And you're like, how do they live like this? You know, it's it's horrible. And then you and then you start to realize, wow, they live like this. They've accepted it. And now they don't see it anymore. They don't see it. That is so funny, because I bring up an analogy that people crack up at every so often because it's like, when you have a really bad smell in your refrigerator. And you can't stand it and you can't figure it out. And pretty soon you don't even notice it anymore. Because it's it's just there.

Leighann Lovely 29:10

Right? Right. You become nose blind to it. There have been there have been times where I've had friends walk into my house, and I'm like, How does my house smell? Like, it smells fine. I'm like, okay, great. Because I don't want to be one of those people. And I just got a puppy too. So, you know, like, I have an extremely heightened sense of smell. But again, I'm just like anybody else if you smell something for so long, but there was one day that I walked out of my bedroom, and in the morning I walked into where the puppy is craters. And I was like, oh my god, like what is that smell? Like oh my god, he must have had an accident or something in his crate and I walked over no and no accident and I'm just like, Oh, my God, the dog smells like this. Oh my god. So I ripped you know, everything out of his crate. I threw everything in the washing machine. I threw him in the bath. And I'm like, and then I think it was like six hours later, my husband had been gone. And he comes home and he goes, what? He walks in the house. He goes, What is that smell? I'm like, it's still there. I'm like, seriously, it's still there. I washed the dog. I washed everything in his crate. Where's that smell coming from? Well, it just hadn't like, aired out of the house. Okay, but isn't that everybody's fears? Like somebody walks in your house. And they go, Oh, God. Oh, you guys live like this?

Julie Miller Davis 30:30

You live this? It's the same. It's the same principle, you know? And to have someone be able to look at it from look at what what's keeping you stuck? Or where, where you're having an issue, from an outside perspective, to walk into the house and go whoa, what, what is that? You know? And, and kind of, you're kind of the person who walks into somebody's brain and says, whoa, what is that?

Leighann Lovely 31:05

Let's, unravel that ball of wax, shall we? Yeah.

Julie Miller Davis 31:09

And it's just moving people from this feeling of or reality of mediocrity, because they're just surviving, right? They're just trying to make it through the day, I got all this stuff to do, I have all these appointments, I have all these calls to make I have this whole to do list. I've got a family to take care of, you know, all the things. I've got a household to run. And it's, it's how do we make space for that? And how do I create instead of survival? Because they're trying to survive it? How do we make it so that it's thriving, like there's joy instead of drudgery?

Leighann Lovely 31:49

Yeah, that's awesome. So, uh, you, you are obviously your speaker. So tell me a little bit more about, you know, some of your speaking engagements. And I mean, you know, obviously, you have an event planner. So I'm assuming that your event planner helps you.

Julie Miller Davis 32:05

I have a I have an event that I run every year in October, and but we work all year on It's, a three day or it's like a half day, full day half day event that we run that's hybrid. So we do, some people come in person, and we broadcast to other people. So you don't have to fly here. But it's awesome if you do. And so we work a lot on that. And that is where people can get a whole entire overview of every thing that I do. And everything that I teach, and they walk away and I'm a teacher, so you're not you're not just gathering, I'm not a lecturer, you're gathering information, I'm telling you, you're practicing it, you're talking about it, you're sharing about it, and then you leave with a plan. And so even if you you know, don't end up staying with me for the short term or the long term, you have something to walk away with that is very very implementable at the end of that event, but mostly I speak Leighann to,I speak on prioritizing. I speak on call it solve unsolvable problems, which is being proactive. And I speak on focusing and and I have another talk called commit to courage. And I speak all over all over the the North America really and mostly to women's groups to a few conferences and mostly to just get the word out about me to gain some following your followers and followings and to help as many people as possible and I give away free stuff and and hope that they engage with me and hope it's helpful and and then we see where it goes. And so there's there's not a lot of big, you know, I'm not on a lot of big stages. I'm not getting big money for it. It's not where I make my it's not where I make my living. But I sure enjoy getting in front of as many people as possible, and helping them have just some aha buzz around what they do.

Leighann Lovely 34:27

Right. That's awesome. I've always, you know, I've always thought and dreamed about you know, getting up in front of, you know, a group of people and doing something like that and never I don't think I ever will. I think there's a there's that that little voice in the back of my head that says nope, probably not going to do that. I probably start shaking and have to walk off the stage. It's not for the faint of heart.

Julie Miller Davis 35:00

It's not and I battled with stage fright for a long time. And you would have thought with being a teacher that I wouldn't have that. But, you know, I got a captive audience and I have a captive audience in a classroom, and they have to know what I'm teaching them because there's a test. Right? And you get burnt out, you get in front of a room of people, let's say a corporation, a corporate office brought me in to speak. They could be hostile, they don't, they might not want to be there. You know, or why, why do they need to listen to me? Or why is this relevant, but after a while, you just learn. You've I've got something to share, and it's relevant, and it's good. And, and I'm fairly entertaining. So hopefully, I capture them and give them one little thing that they can take away and implement.

Leighann Lovely 35:48

So yeah, no, that's great. That's awesome. See, you you started the business when your son was in middle in middle school. Oh, in middle school. Okay. So he's now he's got to be graduated high school and what is he college now?

Julie Miller Davis 36:08

He is not in college right now. He stayed home and he's working and he needs to leave the house. I will, I will tell you all in confidence so we're, working through that he's moving, and going to get a job up in Wyoming where his his best friends are in school right now. So yeah, he's graduated. He is not out of the house.

Leighann Lovely 36:43

You know, what I do? We actually we talked about this before, I do remember that. So yeah. So he is decided what to do defer school for, for the time being or not to do school for right now, which is, hey, I'm, I am a advocate of learning. I am an advocate of, of educating yourself. But I don't necessarily believe that you have to do a traditional college in order to do that.

Julie Miller Davis 37:07

So neither do i Neither do I. And I just, you know, I want him to find something that he loves. And I think that you have to have an education in some fashion, like you have to have training in whatever you're doing, whether you're whether you're working at a restaurant or retail or whether you're in the military, I mean at all at all, there's training for all of it, whether you're a sales on the sales floor for any, you know, a car, a car dealership, or whatever. And so I think it's just around i We are not tied at all to him going to a four year school or anything like that. It's, it's more about, let's find something that you love, and how do we how do we help you? Or how do you help yourself? Do that? To the best of your ability?

Leighann Lovely 38:00

So are you delegating some of your work to him? On No.

Leighann Lovely 38:10

No, it's, it's it is more of a love

Julie Miller Davis 38:12

Excellence is not my definition of a level of excellence.

Leighann Lovely 38:16

He needs more life experience before you're okay. Okay. Yes.

Julie Miller Davis 38:20

No, he is not the he is not the person I would give anything that needs attention to detail or anything. But but but I will say this, he grocery shops for me. So I do delegate that stuff. So he goes to the grocery store, he loves going to the grocery store and comes home and has everything on the list. And he might call me a couple times while he's there, but I didn't have to go there. You know, and I hate grocery shopping. So that's good.

Leighann Lovely 38:49

You and I are like minded and now. I will clean all the toilets in the house. But don't send me to the grocery store.

Julie Miller Davis 38:59

Yeah, yeah,

Leighann Lovely 39:00

I can't stand. I'm one of those people that like speed walks to the grocery store and literally will just throw whatever I can in the cart that is edible. Because I want to get out of there as quickly as possible. I come home and my husband goes What did you buy? And I'm like, food.

Julie Miller Davis 39:17

Food Don't eat me.

Leighann Lovely 39:21

Yeah, like we have food to eat. Okay. Yeah, I am not a fan of the grocery store. Neither neither. Well, we are coming to time. So I have the question of the season. Okay, if you could go back to your younger self and give your self advice. When would you go back and what advice would you give yourself?

Julie Miller Davis 39:46

Oh. I think that. I knew this question was coming in. It's, it's a it's a thinker. So, I really think that it comes back down to something that I said earlier, which is that we really need patience. We need patience in all things. We need patience, and finding the right partner. We need patience, like life partner, we need patience in, in growing up and learning who we are. And in this business, definitely need patience. Because like, we're just always in a hurry, and we want. We want everything now. And our kids, they get everything now. Right? Everything is. So right now. And so I would probably go back to some time in my 20s and just say, you know, what, just be patient Don't be in a hurry. And it applies to so many things in this business. My gosh, being a business owner is not for anybody that's in a hurry.

Leighann Lovely 41:08

Yeah, that is definitely something that if I could go back to myself and maybe my 25 year old self, I would try to try to drill that into my my younger self. That's a good one. That's a very good one. Yeah. And try to drill that in to my 10 year old self to Yeah, yeah.

Julie Miller Davis 41:36

No kidding.

Leighann Lovely 41:37

My daughter. Get in the car. Are we almost there? We've been in. We've been in half 10 minutes. It's a four hour drive fall asleep. So if somebody wanted to reach out to you and learn more about your October, did you say October event, October event or learn more about your services? How would somebody go about doing that?

Julie Miller Davis 42:05

They can find me on LinkedIn, which is just Julie Miller Davis, you can also find me at my website, which is Julie Miller, davis.com, and HTTPS, you know, Julie Miller davis.com. And you've got all the resources you need right there. If you want more about the event, you can actually go we have an event page that's unstuck event.com that you can go to and find more about that.

Leighann Lovely 42:32

Awesome. And, you know, this has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate your time. Today. I will have your the way to reach out to you in the show notes. So if somebody's interested in reaching out to Julie, you can please check the show notes then that will be listed in there. But again, Julie, thank you so much for your time today.

Leighann Lovely 42:51

Thank you so much, Leighann. I just really appreciate you having me. Yeah. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/juliemillerdavis

Website - https://juliemillerdavis.com

https://juliemillerdavis.com/unstuck-the-event/

Podcast - Life Empowered Podcast - https://redeemandrestore.org/category/podcast/

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, julie, delegate, walk, hired, event planner, learn, team, training, awesome, excellence, teaching, year, helping, smell, thinking, grocery store, speak, questions, business owner

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Wanda Fox is a true entrepreneur who left corporate life, ran a flower farm, and now has a successful grazing table catering business that offers her the ability to get to know people and have great conversations that allows her to service her clients and grow her network the way she loves to. Join me to hear about Wanda’s journey.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Wanda Fox is a people person she loves to entertain. So her passion really falls with people food and conversation. She likes to know what makes people tick, and what their talents and gifts are sharing your story is a form of therapy. She found that if you engage people in conversation, especially over food, it relaxes them, and conversation flows. After following her passions, she found her way to starting her grazing table catering business using high end artisan products. Along with that she makes her own black walnut charcuterie boards to showcase the food food became her artistic outlet, she uses food as her painter's palette. However, in between all of this, she also worked in a public school setting, there more than ever is where she saw in the younger generation and young adults, a need for something to reduce stress and anxiety. And in 2018, Wanda started researching mental wellness, and found the company, Amari global, the mental wellness company. This brought all of her passions together today to talk to her about her journey to where she is today. Wanda, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited to talk with you about your journey and where you are now. So thank you.

Wanda Fox 02:35

Hi, Leighann, It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me on.

Leighann Lovely 02:39

Yeah, so why don't you start out by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Wanda Fox 02:45

Well, as we talked before, and my passions are kind of twisted, but they do have a pattern. My passions are people food, and conversations. So with that, I like to find out what makes people tick. And in order to find out what makes them tick, you have to engage them in conversation. And oftentimes by conversation of around food that kind of opens the door.

Leighann Lovely 03:15

I love that because you're absolutely correct it Yeah. You get a you gets you what what is it the old saying the old added adage, the way to a man's heart is through his stomach,

Wanda Fox 03:30

Your stomach, I think that might be a little bit true.

Leighann Lovely 03:36

Yeah, absolutely. You get you get some great food and you know, great conversation going never hurts to have a really good glass of wine in your hand or a great beer, whatever your your preferences. And yeah, the conversation definitely flows. So you and with that being said, you, you actually have an event catering company, Fox and company. Why don't you tell me a little bit about that?

Wanda Fox 04:05

Well, ironically enough, I don't appear that way now, but as a young adult, and as a young kid, I was incredibly shy, painfully shy. So now I kind of gravitate towards that person that I see standing on the sidelines extremely uncomfortable, which is in the ground would swallow them up. And I found because I love to host in my own kitchen. 60 people in my kitchen doesn't rattle me. But if you bring that shy person into the kitchen and give them a job, you can see the inclusion and you can see their shyness and their it just go down. So I love food. I love preparing food. I love everything about it. And it took me a long time to decide on the grazing table concept, but that kind of pulls my creativity talents together. And it was the wow factor. And that is what, boy from technology and on our phones, I'm like, I want something that will cause people to come into the room and go, Wow, look at that. And then you start engaging over food. And then the conversation starts.

Leighann Lovely 05:21

Right. And often, you know, the beginning of that conversation or our, you know, the openers, the starters. But as the evening goes on, those conversations become more and more authentic.

Wanda Fox 05:35

Absolutely correct. Or if not, right, then they lead to a friendship, where that will develop.

Leighann Lovely 05:41

Right, awesome. So how long have you been doing doing that?

Wanda Fox 05:46

Actually started in 2015. And the reason I wanted to go into that actually was a flower farmer. And I did use that for my therapy as well. But I wanted something that was more lasting than that. I did classes on that there was a long story to that. And I'm like, I want something that is more encompassing. And that's why I finally went into the grazing table concept. And my vision was an old world painting where you see these tables just laden with food. Like, that's what I want to do. So it took me a while to pull that out of my brain. And then I started making my own big serving boards, I'm like, This is what I want to do is create food became my painter's palette.

Leighann Lovely 06:38

That's, that's awesome. And you know, right now I'm starting to get hungry. And I'm starting to think, oh, wow, I wish I could see a picture of what this looks like. Because, you know, you walk into these elaborate, you know, parties, or you walk into these, and the grazing table now is the the really popular excite well, I shouldn't say it before the pandemic, that was, you know, the thing that everybody loved, unfortunately, the pandemic kind of slowed that down a little bit. I think it's now coming back, where everybody loves to just be able to walk up, grab a couple of things, and you have that huge selection of all of these different and people stand around and talk.

Wanda Fox 07:21

Yeah, they do. And the fun part about this is, when you're served to plate and sit down dinner, you know exactly what you have. And you just again, but with a grazing table, the whole concept was how do I put this together? So I walk through it, it's a pairing of foods, different flavors, different textures, I show them how to put it together. That's kind of the conversation, the engaging part. That's what gets people to start talking. And then they're like, Oh, my goodness, I would not in these foods. That's what opens the door.

Leighann Lovely 07:57

That's awesome. Now you mentioned you were, you're also a flower farmer.

Wanda Fox 08:03

I was I thought I could do it all. But I did do that for several years, I designed for my own design work, also sold on some high end farmers markets over on the North Shore. And that's when I just really, really started understanding the need for some form of therapy using your hands. Then it's hand mind coordination. And then out of that came the adding in the other component of the food.

Leighann Lovely 08:35

So okay, you said you thought you could do it. So I don't even know what it what is a flower farmer? Look, what does that look like?

Wanda Fox 08:43

Okay, so if you buy flowers, you probably go into a shop and buy them. And that's, that's there. So I grew up on a farm in Virginia. And I wanted to gravitate to I never wanted to be on a farm when I was a kid at home, and then I left and my commercial work corporate work to me away from that. But flower farming is well just think about this year, if I had had to do flower farming this year is cold and wet, it would have been really difficult. And then that involves bringing in your greenhouses, which I was not growing greenhouses at that time. So it's a lot of preparing the land, same as farmers. It's doing a lot of seed work, it's doing a lot of transplant work. You think taking care of a dog is a lot making sure the food and water taking care of a flower farm because then you have to be so careful of insects and bugs and but I raised them organically. So I did graze on them because I wanted them on the table. So Wow. But there was a beauty and that because I grew them. I designed them. I sold them I interacted with my end customer. So there was a story in that from Field to Table. And I knew the whole story

Leighann Lovely 10:00

Okay, so the here's Fun, fun facts. So I have a friend who is actually lives on a farm and he he sells flowers every year. And when I went in to buy my flowers this I go out to buy my flowers from him now. And it's like an hour drive. But you know, I'm dedicated to supporting, you know, obviously my my network, my friends, you know that. And when I walked in there, he had these little pods. And I'm like, what are those? He's like, Oh, those are praying mantis pods. And I'm like, interesting. And he goes, Yeah, and and I saw him all over. I'm like, Why? Why do you have so many of these? And so what you just said growing organic, you have to get rid of the bugs you have to see, because do you want one of those? And I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I do. So I'm assuming that you probably did things like that. Right.

Wanda Fox 10:53

Like it's a farmer's friend. Yes. Yeah. But then the other thing is, depending on what your soil is, your soil lends a lot to that. So there's a there's a whole education process behind that. Yeah, I grew up on a crop farm and a dairy farm. So we weren't so concerned about the end product looking perfect with a dahlia with no insect bites in it. So yeah, it gets, it got kind of tricky,

Leighann Lovely 11:22

Right? Yeah. So no, I'm gonna have hopefully, I'll have, you know, and it was one of those pods anywhere from 50 to 250. He said, like, what am I going to do with but apparently that's, you know, one of those pods produces, and it'll cut back on the amount of you're right that, you know, my dahlias, I have dahlias, that, you know, I actually have to get those in the ground. I finally can, again, but all my, you know, flower and I look at him. And I'm like, Oh, they're so beautiful. Except they've got bug holes, you know?

Wanda Fox 11:58

Yeah. And then the other thing, we had a lot of honeybee hives around us, so we had a lion prairie land. So things that I supported the honey bees,

Leighann Lovely 12:08

Right? Oh, how fun. So okay, yeah, so you went from Flower farming now to, you know, your catering company. And now you are you're engaged in another very interesting that lens again, because I'm hearing a common thread in everything that you're you're kind of talking about things that are are helping with the mental health, the doing something with your hands, that's also create, you know, create creative, there we go getting that word out. These are all things that are lending to your mental health things that are keeping you busy and kind of in a healing way. So now you, you your most recent you are with Amari global. So tell me, you know, who were they and, and what are you doing with them.

Wanda Fox 13:01

So it does look ironic that I've cut up ping pong all over the place. But you're right, there is really a common thread going through that. And that came from my own background, my own history mon health, I am a mom, I have two adult children. So we learn a lot. When we raise our own children, I did work in an education system. So I got to see everything in mental wellness, from the kid that was crushing it to the kid that needed assistance to special needs. So then I learned there is a common thread running through the mental wellness. We all have it, it does not discriminate. And oftentimes we hide behind a facade. But then after doing my own research, and I was basically a holistic person I grew up on our own food that we grew on the farm. And we think we are doing the best we can in the system and societies that we're in. But nonetheless, our gut needs a little bit more nutrition that we're we're giving it and then that is when I learned that directly affected the brain. But I didn't know all of that it went back to me having a compassion for people and people that felt lost and were looking for solutions. And that is when I learned that there was a whole lot more to mental wellness than what I thought. And oftentimes we think of mental wellness or mental health is somebody that deals with mental health concerns. But mental health can be anything from distress and anxiety that can go out into the classroom. There can be underlining cursors or precursors I should say from perhaps food sensitivity, but it can come it can manifest itself in many ways. And what I found if we address the root cause cause holistically, then we can, as we say, if you address the root cause and the gut brain microbiome, you can actually rewire the brain. And we've kind of proven that. And then I just became so fascinated with it. And like that, this helps me. And it's all about conversation. It's all about talking to people, well, then why can't I pull all three of these things together? So that's kind of what I did.

Leighann Lovely 15:28

So this is this company is, is this an all natural supplement or what what is?

Wanda Fox 15:36

Well, it's actually was built out of a passion of love. So Amari is Latin, and it does mean to live. So it was created by an incredibly successful businessman who fell through the cracks with his own health and well being after he built several billion billion dollar companies. So from that, he sought out the best minds in the industry to create a holistic product. So without going deep into it, we have no fillers, no sugars, no caffyns, no colors, no dyes. And we have a kid product. And that really became my passion is to work with the young children going into high school, going into college, where with my own children going into college, I saw the stressors. And I'm like, Well, what can I do to help that? How can I offset that, and then the passion just kept growing deeper. And without going deep into this, you know, where we are with suicide rates? And I'm like, what is causing that? How can my voice lend help and support to that? So that is why I became so passionate about that, and working with some other platforms around this, as well as like, I do have a solution, I do have something that will support. So I just incorporated that into more of my passions of who really is wonderfox? And what are your passions? And how can I help humanity? That maybe it's only a few people, but it's a ripple effect?

Leighann Lovely 17:19

Wow. Right? I go back to, you know, a saying that. And I'm probably going to say this wrong, because it's not in front of me, but I cannot help everyone, but one person can help someone. And if we all have that mind frame of, you know, just assisting with one person or trying to, you know, help just one person, we as you know, community as a society, we would be able to help give a lending hand would be able to make a difference in our world, our society. And you clearly have a passion. Are you open to talking a little bit more about where that driver comes from? Where, where did that originate? What, you know? Did you experience it yourself? Was there somebody in your family?

Wanda Fox 18:16

Well, I like to think we all have things in our back office that we don't put out there. But growing up and then as I got older, I learned a lot more about my background about my ancestors and things that they dealt with. And I'm like, wow, what if they had had these options? What if this had been available, and I will say a lot of this is based on ancient wisdom, and herbs. But what is bringing it to the forefront is modern day science. And that is where the two things are blending together. So with my own health, and then with, we're a family of four, we're all on the products. And we have just seen such massive changes within ourselves. And then the testimonials and the ones that speak to my heart the most are when we can bring a child in school struggling, we can bring them out, give them confidence, we can bring them from the back row to the front row, we can take the stress and the pressures on college athletes and college students alone is horrendous. And these days and it's like if we can give them something that we know will support them and make life easier. Make them crush their goals. For me myself. I lost a lot of weight. But the biggest thing I saw in myself was confidence. And it's like I've got this I know that I can go out there with my with my event raising tables. It's my passion. I don't need a stranger anymore. I'm no longer that kid that was shy leave me alone. Just let me and that's why I gravitate toward So I might be doing it in executives, I might be talking to a mom, again, I'm not that clinical person, I'm not that pharmacist, it's my passion. I've been there, I've walked that road, I think I have something that might help. So that's kind of what it is. And when you were talking about little cliches, and, you know, we say that to the world, you're one person, but to that one person, you're the world, right? And it's like, so who can I help today?

Leighann Lovely 20:31

Absolutely. Part of the reason that, you know, I created this podcast, part of the reason that I tell my story, I, part of the reason I talk about my story, which is I think, the reason you and I connected in the first place, is because I'm out there talking about my mental health, I'm out there talking about all of that stuff. My passion is to, to let people know that they're not alone in this. And if we were all able to follow our passions, I think that we would have a much more Well, as you, as you say, conversations, we'd have a lot more open, honest conversations with people. And if we were doing that, on a regular basis, I think that we would find that we are in a much happier open society. Of course, you know, there are always the, you know, the, the other side of that, that not everybody wants to have great conversations. But

Wanda Fox 21:35

Well, that's true. And you know, the world is a big place, there are a lot of people and can we reach everybody. But there's one thing that sticks out in my mind so much there was something that was on the news last year, very much. So it did not end well. But when I went back and watch those videos of leading up to the end, I saw hand signals of this young person. And I picked up on it, because it was that it wasn't a signal. Like a recognizable signal. But it was a signal of something that she was doing with her hand. And I'm like, I reckon that's fear. And I think what that's one of the things that I wanted to do is just put things out there to educate people to open their minds, broaden their horizons, to look for other options, other opportunities, other solutions. Maybe it's somebody that is desperately looking for a solution. But I think a lot of it is just listening and watching. And when the time is right. They'll approach you because you've opened the door for the conversation.

Leighann Lovely 22:46

Right? Yep. So if somebody wanted to reach out for you reach out to you for well, your catering, your catering services, or for more information about Amari global, how would they go about doing that?

Wanda Fox 23:05

Okay, there's a couple of sites that I have to tell you this first, because you're from Wisconsin. Yeah. A lot. A lot of my product comes from Wisconsin. Oh, really? Yes. There's a lot of cheeses created in Wisconsin. Yes. There are. One company that I sourced my bacon from that is second to none. It goes on every table. So yes, Wisconsin is well represented on my grazing tables.

Leighann Lovely 23:31

Oh, well. So what is your reach? What were you where do you typically,

Wanda Fox 23:38

I'm in Northern Illinois. So I stretch into the city. Predominantly, the city was my area, and then I stretch up into the Lake Geneva area and into the northwest suburbs.

Leighann Lovely 23:51

Oh, okay. Lake Geneva? That's, that's right. In my backyard. Yeah. Right. It's not hard at all. No, not far at all.

Wanda Fox 24:00

But a lot of my clients have been downtown Chicago corporate companies.

Leighann Lovely 24:04

Right. Okay. Excellent. So, yeah, if somebody wanted to do you have a website and this is all going to be obviously on our on my show notes so that somebody could you know, take a look at the show notes and, and be able to find you there.

Wanda Fox 24:21

So the easiest place to find me for my catering. It's really simple. It's my last name, Fox fo X and company. So Fox letter in company.com. There's a story behind that name as well. I married the fox. So that's kind of my umbrella behind all of that. And then the easiest way to find me, Amari is I am on LinkedIn under one so I post a lot of educational information on there a lot of engagement. There's other ways ways to contact me, but they're all be interlinked.

Leighann Lovely 24:56

Yeah. Okay perfect. And like I said, I will post those in the shownotes, and everything else, so I have a question of the season that I am asking everybody. And this one, this question I find really interesting. Because I, there are times in my life where I think, if I could go back, would I change anything? What I what I and usually, I think, no, I would not change the trajectory or the path, but what I give myself advice, you know, to help myself so wildly interested to hear what your answer is, if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back to and what advice would you give yourself?

Wanda Fox 25:49

It's easy to answer now. I'm older. And I know how painfully shy I was. So the first thing would be, get rid of that. You lose a lot of opportunities when you're so painfully shy. But learn to use your voice. Your voice is your power, as go back. And that's why I gravitate to that young person is. But I have the means now to know how to deal with that. But not to be so shy, the world won't gobble you up and learn to use your voice.

Leighann Lovely 26:29

That's great. And and you're you're very right. There's a lot of individuals out there that? Well, there's a lot of individuals out there that stay quiet on purpose, not necessarily because they're shy. But they are introverts by nature. They choose to listen more than they talk. My husband is one. And he's not shy. And then there are the individuals out there that are too shy. And I just want I have to be honest, I can't imagine you being a shy person. You were just told to change. Yes, I know. But and then there are the individuals who are truly shy and and given the opportunity. I have met, obviously, individuals from all walks of life, given the opportunity for the for them, or if they were given the opportunity, saying this all wrong. But let me try again. If they were given the the opportunity, they're so wildly brilliant, many of them are so wildly brilliant. They're just under recognized because they don't have that. Well, I've just never been a shy person. So I don't know what they what they don't.

Wanda Fox 27:50

Well, you mentioned something about your husband not being shy, but he likes to listen, well, I do find that that is incredibly valuable, right, we need to listen. But in the Listening is when you learn the questions to ask to draw them out. And then when you start drawing them out, when you talk about them being brilliant, and incredibly shy. When you find their passion and their trigger points, then you literally something like that can change the trajectory of someone's life. It's like, wow, she really believed in me, I really can't do that. And I think that's the passion behind everything I do, is drawing that person out, to believe in themselves. And to find that confidence. And it's not. It's not always an easy job to do. It's, it's a process. But that's my passion. And then I see the end results. And I can see what happens. There's this young man, I know he was incredibly shy all through school. He grew into college, and from college, he went on to manage a $28 million job. And that same young man is going to be road tripping now for three or four months. He's like every goal I set, I crushed I met it. And so that's the growth that you want to see in a person and it's because you believed in them. And you encourage them and you gave them the tools and the confidence to get there.

Leighann Lovely 29:28

Right. Right. Completely. And you know, again, going back to my husband, he's he's a complete introvert but you put him behind a DJ stand. He DJs he does hip hop, he scratches, he does hip hop. He also does weddings, and you put him behind there and he's like us he's got like a split personality completely, like alive and he's in his room of like, I know I'm good at that. And I'm going to just mean he can turn out a quiet, completely neutral room into every single person standing up and jumping up and down. And you're like, what just happens? So you're, that's his talent that right? He right? I watched him take a it was a group of engineers. Okay, so we all know engineers have a tendency to have that pretty subdued, subdued personality, you know, highly intelligent in the beginning of the night, they're all coming up saying, Hey, can you tell how does this equipment work? And he's like, seriously, listen to the music, like, how many times do I have to explain all the equipment work? And by the end of the night, they were that song, jump, jump jump. By the end of the night, I saw these engineers and not young engineers, I'm talking, you know, like, the average age in the room was probably 50. And they were jumping up and down saying, play another one. And I'm going, Oh, my God. What just happened? We're in the twilight zone. And he's, you know, the, the person running the events, like, you need to turn off the music. And he's like, Yeah, I'm trying, but I keep getting, you know, all these people keep requesting another song. They were singing, trying to sing karaoke. And I'm just like, Oh, my God.

Wanda Fox 31:23

So for him, that's the power of music. Yeah, that's what I see in my Grayson table. It's breaking down those walls. And he come in a human.

Leighann Lovely 31:33

Yep. That's right, everybody. You know, I've seen a post on LinkedIn, what is your superpower? And it's truly everybody has, every single person has something. Some people may not know what it is yet. either. They're young in their career, or they just haven't figured it out. And it sounds like one a you enjoy. You enjoy talking to people and helping them figure out what it what their superpower as everybody has something. And when you when you identify what that is, it's amazing, because then you can really leverage that use that to your benefit to the benefit of others. And you know, yeah, it's, it's amazing.

Wanda Fox 32:27

I absolutely. And I think you could, you could have changed someone's life for the absolute better, because they're like, she believed in me. Right. So then you just instilled belief in them. And that's, and that's, that's the part I love.

Leighann Lovely 32:44

Absolutely. And, yeah, absolutely. That's brilliant. And we need more people like you, we need. And I know a lot of a lot of business professionals who will offer Hey, I'll be a mentor to you. I will, you know, and that's what we need in this world?

Wanda Fox 33:01

Well, it does. And there are a lot of people that I think that are stepping into that role, because there is such a massive need for that. And when you surround yourself with people that have that mindset, I mean, they become a mentor to you. But then in turn, you can take that same, and you can pass it on to someone else. So I mean, like you I feel like you would be someone's mentor and podcasting these days is taken on a whole new level. So I was working with a young man the other day actually interviewing him for something else. And he works with young adults teaching them podcasting. And I mean, back in when I was a teenager, there were while technology is not what it is today. So there are so many things that if we just open up those avenues, well, this is something you could do. And I think that's where the mentorship is huge is showing young people. Because we don't come with knowing everything, you have to walk the road. So you can go back and say, well, this might be so I think that's what you're good at doing too is giving people other options and interviewing people and bringing this out like, wow, look at who Leanne just interviewed, I want to go do what they do.

Leighann Lovely 34:17

Well, and I get I have a lot of I've had quite a few people come to me and say, Hey, I've got one it was my granddaughter I've got you know, my my daughter or my son. They don't know what they want to be when they grow up. Even though they just went to college and have a degree Will you will you talk with them? Will you interview them and see what they what they're interested in and I'm like, I'll talk with them. But I can't tell them what their what they want to be when they grow up. I can tell them what the world has to offer. And I can walk them through the steps of how they can hone in on what they want to be. And I've done that a lot. I've done that a couple of times and said okay, here's here's where you You should start to focus. Here's with your degree, here's what you can do. And sometimes, you know, with the degrees nowadays, you know, you can get a degree in economics or you can get a business degree and you can, you can go anywhere, you can do anything. So I've definitely done that, for a number of individuals, a number of young people who just recently graduated.

Wanda Fox 35:25

What are the things that I find so useful with that when you're talking about young college students? And that is a that's a huge stressor, what do I do now, it's like to sit them down and say, Tell me what you love to then further man on LinkedIn and say, go follow somebody who's doing exactly what you want to do. And let them just be on the side just watching because you can learn so much, just watching someone and maybe what their degree is, it's not what they really want. But you know what, no one could ever take that piece of paper away from them, they have a degree.

Leighann Lovely 36:01

Right, well, and the interesting thing is that I started going to school for computer programming. Actually, my first, my first I started going to school for accounting. Then I started going to school for computer programming, then I switched my degree to business with an emphasis in human resource management. So it's, it's ever changing. You know, I shouldn't say it's ever changing. It's a lot of college students, they choose their degree, way before they have any concept of what they want to be what they want to do. Unless, yeah, right. And nobody gives them guidance.

Wanda Fox 36:44

And I completely agree for my son, an educator, his said, college will help him find his direction. On the flip side, my daughter is an educator, and in her middle school, they have all of the trades listed, and they show you what you can make as a tradesman. So I don't want to come on here, just as college only in the world we live in today, the doors open for entrepreneurs, the door is open for tradesmen, and we seriously need those. So that's why I encourage people don't just feel like it's one track. And this is what I have to do. And if I don't, I'm a failure. I do seriously encourage people to reach out to people in your community. If someone wants a job with me and watch, I would absolutely allow them to come do that. Maybe they find out that's absolutely what I don't want to do. I like what someone told my son. After he poured concrete for summer, he said that was the best thing you could do. You found out you didn't want to be concrete labor. That's not to say we don't need concrete laborers. And we do. That just wasn't his passion. Right? So I highly encourage go shadow someone. If you think you want to be a flower farmer, go see what's involved in the flower farmer. It's not all roses.

Leighann Lovely 38:10

Right? Right. Oh my gosh, that and what you said, you know, go shadow. I work at a staffing company. If you want to go try out a couple of different jobs come and be a contractor for for six months and try out a couple of different jobs. They're going to be entry level because you don't have a ton of experience in different things. But entry level nowadays is not $12 An hour or $6. Now or when it was my first job? Yeah, actually, I think $4 An hour was my first job.

Wanda Fox 38:42

But I think it is probably the best time that they could invest in their in their future self is to go job shadow and go talk to people. And then that comes back to being shy. You have to learn to talk. Even if it's just go up to someone and say can you tell me about your job? You can sit and listen.

Leighann Lovely 39:02

I don't know how we got on this tangent, but it was fun. Well, wanted this has been an awesome conversation and you've definitely had a very interesting path and continue to from Flower farmer to catering company to now with Amari global are they do they? What how do they identify? Are they they're not pharmaceuticals? Are they there?

Wanda Fox 39:31

We are not pharmaceutical we are actually trademarked as the mental wellness company. We are completely holistic. So no pharmaceuticals,

Leighann Lovely 39:43

no pharmaceuticals, no drugs

Wanda Fox 39:45

I will jump back real quick. It's like how did I get to be where I am? I did work corporate America. high stress, high anxiety, anxiety. I didn't have any of these things up at my disposal. So I saw that side of it. So it can be for anyone. It could be for, you know, the executive that's just crushing it burning the candle at both urns. It can be for the athlete it can. Yeah, it's like I said, we all have mental wellness. So, yes, I've been there on that. And prior to becoming a flower farmer, I did the corporate. So yeah,

Leighann Lovely 40:21

Yeah, you definitely have an awesome background and an interesting path. So I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today about that. And and like I said, you check out the show notes for how to reach out to Wanda if you're interested in talking about her catering company, or if you're interested in learning more about the product that her company offers for mental health, wellness, and, you know, again, want to thank you.

Wanda Fox 40:47

Thanks, Leighann I think we could talk for a long time so we'll chat again.

Leighann Lovely 40:51

Yes, we definitely will. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Website – https://www.foxncompany.com/

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wanda-fox-14b497146/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/wanda.fox.7

Podcast - Life Empowered Podcast - https://redeemandrestore.org/category/podcast/

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

mental wellness, people, passion, shy, flower, conversation, person, table, grew, wanda, farmer, food, talk, company, lending, common thread, learn, degree, grazing, amari

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Chaplain Krista Hull is an amazing woman, she is passionate, tenacious and a survivor in her own right. She now walks alongside women at their most weak and vulnerable to help them heal. Building a business alone is not easy, but creating a place for hope offering a safe place and so much more is not for the faint of heart.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Today I have the distinguished honor of speaking with an amazing woman Chaplain Christa Hull, Krista is the Founder and Executive Director for Redeem and Restore Center. Our RRC's mission is coming along side women recovering from sex trafficking and helps them build a foundation of healing ultimately through a restorative care home. She is inspired by the courage and resilience of women's survivors and believes that together with God's help, we can restore women to a life of freedom. fueled with her compassion, Christina's desire to help hurting women stems from being a survivor of child sexual abuse, and abandonment. She knows God's great love, power and justice in her life. With that she perseveres in honesty, vulnerability, integrity, and strength as a passionate speaker, Chaplain, crisis intervention specialist, and as a life coach, she is also trauma care certified, and an alumni of the FBI Citizens Academy and Waukesha County Sheriff's Citizens Academy. She is married and a mother of two young adults in her free time Krista enjoys her adventures in the outdoors. So Krista, thank you for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you here.

Chaplain Krista Hull 02:34

Well, thank you so much. I'm thrilled to be with you.

Leighann Lovely 02:38

So tell me a little bit about yourself.

Chaplain Krista Hull 02:42

Oh, well, let's see, I could go on for too much and bore you to death. But let's see. Today, I have overcome a lot of junk just like all of us have faced in our life. But I'm so thankful of where I am. The hard work and the journey so far. I look forward to what's ahead. You know, I have two young adults as children, so married, and have my lovely pet Tacoma. Who is my cuddle baby at home. So yeah, that's where I'm at today.

Leighann Lovely 03:13

Awesome. So you, you are the founder. And you run an amazing not not for profit, redeem and restore Center for Women. How did you how did you find your your path? You know, to where you are with that?

Chaplain Krista Hull 03:30

Yeah, and that is that journey that I've mentioned. It was not my plan. I didn't say hey, I want to start a nonprofit and feel good and help people. Nope, I was, let's see, I went to school, tried out to two different areas of careers. And then my husband, I started a landscape company, I was an insurance agent. All these things that did not lead me in directly prepare me to start a nonprofit, but really all the other behind the scenes stuff of really, you know, growing up and learning through my experiences of being abandoned by my father and my mom, struggling with that emotional abuse and then not having that good connection with her. And then, you know, choices and shame and struggle that I dealt with through high school and college, really all of that compiling and saying I've got to do something with all this junk. And working through that. Because of the overwhelming feelings of abandonment, rejection, loneliness and shame. I wanted to find a way to help others that maybe feel those same things and how can I be that encouragement that I didn't have that encouragement and to point out and direct and in empower them to see their value regardless of what They've experienced regardless of what they've been through and what they've been told. And so basically I see it as I, I am gathering people and resources so that we can support the most abandoned and rejected and lonely women out there those who have been trafficked and exploited.

Leighann Lovely 05:20

So and you kind of mentioned that a little bit so trafficked and exploited. So is that the specific area of that you really tackle? I mean, tell me a little bit about redeem and restore center.

Chaplain Krista Hull 05:34

Yes. So we started redeem and restore center, to reach out to those women and provide a place a home where they could come and heal from every area that they've been shattered physically, mentally, emotionally, relationally, and spiritually, all of those things, because all of those make up who we are, we're not just, you know, struggling financially and struggling mentally it they're all interwoven. And so we saw that a home would be a perfect place where they have to deal with life for a time, they just have to deal with the junk for a time and have that support system and provide the services. And so that's what we set out to do when we started redeeming Resource Center for exploited and trafficked women. And I didn't think we could help anyone until we had this home open. But what I found after a few years in of, you know, speaking, getting out in the public, having events been on the internet and social media, that survivors were finding us and wanting that support and wanting help now. And some of them had somewhere to live, but still didn't really get these services on all these other areas of their life, anywhere. And so they were still really struggling just to function and live. And it's been a real privilege that we've been able to come alongside multiple women and surrounding communities, and build up an advocate team to help them and support them. And and also as an individual, it's not just this cookie cutter program, and this is what we offer. It's where are you? What can we offer. So that's why we say walk alongside, because that means that's implying that I don't know what they need until I get to know them, and what do they need? And how can we help them. We're not just a handout or a financial handout, we are a support system and advocate system to help build them up and empower them to become all that they were created to be the home that we're looking for right now shopping for and Waukesha County, it is that best way to do that is in a home, because there are so many that don't have a place to but need that support. And so that's what we are working to do right now.

Leighann Lovely 07:57

Right. And and you said so many, when we think of I mean, I grew up in this beautiful state of Wisconsin, and you know, in the United States, we think, well, that doesn't happen here. There's no sex trafficking here. Right. Then I met you and we come to realize that this, this is happening. This is happening here in the United States. This is happening here in Milwaukee, this is happening across the United States. How many? Yes, how many women how many people?

Chaplain Krista Hull 08:38

Well, there are so many and so many that we don't know where they are. So it's not like we can just go out and rescue them. And again, even to rescue them is such a it's a lovely sounds like a great word. But again, this isn't just that they were they weren't kidnapped and locked in a room. They were manipulated, coerced, this is to relationship this is this is through maybe even how they grew up and how they were treated. This is why it happens everywhere. It is a human problem. It is not a location problem. And and when people abuse people and manipulate that does happen everywhere. And so the amount of people are guesstimate, they guesstimate and this guesstimate has not really changed I will say in over 10 years. So that's how good these kits are. They estimate that over 300,000 Americans are entrapped into sex trafficking every year. And that includes children up to adults, and this is boys and girls and men and women. It is again using other people justifying their choices to get what they want, make some money, have some power, and also again, make themselves feel good and not look At that other person, as a person as a product, and that is why it happens everywhere. Again, we have our if you could think of the most vulnerable, and even our media so much portrays it's often, you know, the inner city, it's in similar walkie it's, it's in Chicago and will it is, but I will say, I'll ask you a question. Where do most of the people live? In the cities, right? So there's a lot more people. So logically, that's why it happens more. Another reason is, then again, we have more vulnerable people in the city because of various things, right, that we know of in various cities, again, poverty. And then we have the foster system and all sorts of other issues. So there's more of them in the inner cities as well. But it is not limited in any way to just the cities because as I said, it is a human issue. If we just think about porn, how readily available, it is right on our home computers, or our handheld devices and all over the place. And that is intimately connected to trafficking. And again, it's a people thing, it's why it happens even in rural towns and in the country and in the suburbs, because it is a people problem, not a location problem.

Leighann Lovely 11:23

So many of these individuals that this is happening with, it's not necessarily or in the beginning, this individual may not even know that they are originally being manipulated into something that is eventually going to turn into basically their horror story.

Chaplain Krista Hull 11:46

Right, I talked about our normals, we we all have different normals, right? I mean, there's generally general culture, normal, you know, in, in the United States, compared to other countries or even in individual states have some different cultural differences. But they have these different normals, but then as an individual, our own family, what did what do we experience when we grew up what shaped us that what we expect to be normal. So for me, with the abuse by an older boy, when I was young, and then thinking as I went into high school, by my experience, what I saw, what I saw in the porn at my uncle's house and other places, is if I wanted boys to like me, if I wanted attention that I would need to do whatever they wanted me to do, sexually, to get their affection to get their attention, because that was my normal. Right? Though I knew in my head that part of it was wrong. But yet this is what was normal what I had experienced. So we all have different normals, so specifically to being exploited and trafficked. Some of them, it could have started since birth, it could have started when they were little kids that they were being abused, sexually, or in other ways. And then as you get older, you get used to, you know, people who have relationships with narcissists. Again, we've heard about domestic abuse, which is more commonly understood at this point. And why does someone go from one abusive relationship to another, and then to another, and to another, you're like, What Are they crazy, but it is what is normal to them, they want something different, but it's normal. So if you were told or shown, you know, this is all you're good for, then you're more ready to let people do whatever, to keep living. So in other cases, when it's not started, right when you're young, but even so when you're young and older, it is mostly through relationships, it is not kidnapped, people are not rarely ever kidnapped into trafficking, it is through a manipulative relationship, often a romantic relationship, most often over 50% of the time, it is someone that you're, you become close to, and they and they groom you they call you, they prepare you and get you to trust them and like them. And then they get you to do things that you thought you would never do, or how would you do it. And if you do want to rebel or leave, you know, they, they often can use threats, of course, you know, if they if you have other family members, or they know where you live, or they made videos, they threaten you. So it's not so easy of just walking away, especially when you already feel like you have this good close relationship or they you think they really love you, or because they made you feel good or they buy you things because this is the best you've experienced then you're more willing to oh, well they just really needed my help or he didn't really mean to or he really does care about me but I need to do this because again And our justifications of how we get stuck in those situations as well.

Leighann Lovely 15:04

Right. And again, like you mentioned, often, the individuals that are chosen for this are looking or need

Chaplain Krista Hull 15:14

Need our Vulnerability or vulnerability, there we go, though

Leighann Lovely 15:18

The word of are, are in a vulnerable state to begin with. So they're, they're more likely to fall into those situations.

Chaplain Krista Hull 15:27

Right? And when are you vulnerable? I mean, you're vulnerable at multiple times throughout your life, correct. First, of course, your age, it makes you automatically under the age of 25 is when you're most vulnerable. But you can be vulnerable later. And that happens, you know, you you think you could do this thing, and you think you'll be okay. And but yet you're in such a desperation financially. Or, or, again, it's a relationship, and then you start and then even in that again, then the boyfriend can start to traffic you and sell you.

Leighann Lovely 16:01

Yes. So you I mean, it's gotta be a struggle, not only, you know, being one, a business owner. But then on top of that, you are, you know, a Chaplin, you, you have your own personal life, obviously, that you have to fit somewhere in there. But how do you balance that when, when I'm assuming that everybody is looking to you for the direction? And you know, how do you how do you find that balance?

Chaplain Krista Hull 16:31

Well, for me, and yes, because running a nonprofit is still a business, I'm not selling a product, I'm selling ideas and purpose. And that is harder. And that's why he loves people helping. But yes, I do lead that. And I'm thankful for the gifts that I have that allow me to lead and be adaptable. That is one of my strengths, and very driven has also that I'm able to do this and I can I can fudge my way through lots of things until someone comes along and does it better. So that helps, too. But yes, definitely. And I'm, obviously I'm very passionate about educating people. I'm very passionate about seeing people's value and very passionate about coming alongside them and helping and supporting them. And yes, I hear some horrific things. And you think I wouldn't be surprised, but I'm thankful that it still always, in some ways still surprises me when I hear another horrific issue with someone or struggles. But it is it I'm thankful that if you know what an Enneagram personality is that I'm an eight, and maybe not a seven, fully, because then I might struggle more those that are very much more empathetic than me, you know, it's harder for having good strong boundaries. So for me, it really is learning boundaries. And again, sometimes I fail on those. Like, there were some certain rules my husband and I had, well, I should say my husband said that this these are some rules on with the women that you work with what will not happen and I have broken a few of those rules. But it is really about having good healthy boundaries, even with volunteers, even in with all people, not just the women that we work with, but with volunteers. And then because I'm driven learning to have good boundaries, again, with just when work is I don't really care what when I work, I can work Monday morning, I can work Monday night, I can work you know, Saturday, Sunday, because I'm so passionate and involved. So then again having really healthy boundaries and acknowledging that I need that time out and actually it is my husband once again, him being really jealous of his time and with me or taking that time. So he adds that added pressure to make sure I have good boundaries. And so I've been learning with that. How to do that better. Because I can I can get swallowed in at times and I still do sometimes and sometimes there are emergencies there are situations that will take more time and I'm fine with that. But there's still time that I set aside that I do go outside for me it's outdoors it's the beauty. So again that self care things that we hear so much about but what is good for you and for me, it is being outdoors it is enjoying you sometimes working in the garden or going for walks or you know playing with my dog or or even driving down the road with my all my windows open the sunroof and my music blaring. These are things that kind of just level me out and calm me down and refresh me especially the sun I love that too. So those are some, I think the biggest points for me that helped me stay grounded and keep me refocused as well.

Leighann Lovely 20:09

Right. And, you know, it's, it's, I spoke to in season one, I spoke to somebody who is an advocate for in mental health patients, she works for, you know, behavioral health clinic. And she talked a lot about, you know, really holding space for herself and making sure that she does that. And I'm assuming that that is something that you really have to that you have to do that you have to really make sure that you're being careful not to let some of the emotions of other people use, you mentioned, you know, empathy, it's good to have empathy, but, you know, to become empathic or to become too empathetic to a point where you're bringing that home with you. And you're allowing it to bleed into your personal life that could, that could really affect somebody, it could really affect your own mental health. So how do you make sure that your take and you talk a little bit about going outside blaring your music and, you know, open up the windows in your car, but, you know, are there other things that you make that you do to really make sure that that you're taking care of you, you know, is it a weekend at the spa every once in a while? Or, you know, do you do you go in and talk to somebody about your own mental health, just to make sure that you're not carrying the weight of the world, on your shoulders?

Chaplain Krista Hull 21:33

Yeah, so those are my kind of those things I did mention are kind of my regular things, and that are important. But another huge regular thing that I didn't mention that I do that I think actually is the biggest thing for me, is I have my coffee and my quiet time with God in the morning, and I sit and, and I'll read something in my Bible, and I will sit and just pray over the things that I'm concerned all about that weigh on me, and, and listen and just slowly start my day. And that is actually probably the biggest thing. Because without that, because what I'm a part of what we do is so much bigger than me that this is not something I can do it is it is not I don't do it. So I can feel good about myself, I really actually do it because this is where I feel God led me. And this is where he's leading me. And so I need him to help me clear my mind and let him carry the weight. So that's my first putting the burden on him and just say, what do I need to do today, and I can only do what I can do, I can't fix people, I can barely fix myself. So that's my first main grounding thing of moving forward one day at a time. And the other thing is just like I trained our advocate team as well. And, and so with the other advocates and me, it's we talk about that self care. So some of those important things already mentioned the brown these boundaries and things that I love, but also talking to one another. And so again, when we have something that's weighing on us or, you know, there's just it's somehow it's like, oh, I'm noticing, so we talk about, you know, are you paying attention? Are you noticing that something's different? Because there's secondary trauma is what it's called, what happens is when you're in the middle, when you're sitting in someone else's pain and sorrow with them, then you start to take that on and, and you have to do things to let that go. And part of that, like I said, for me is my morning quiet time with God. But then also, I have other people that I talked to, and and besides our advocate team, and just talking to them because they understand and just to process through and asking them to pray as well so that it can let it go. And same for them to not hold tight. Because again, we know we can logically know these things. But those emotions are connected to our logic and emotions have their own thing. They do not follow logic, they do not follow facts. And so that's the biggest thing, having that alertness, of paying attention. And then also having those conversations with people to ask asking questions with one another to make sure. How are we doing? Are we doing well? are we carrying some of this extra weight that we shouldn't be carrying? And that's really pretty much it.

Leighann Lovely 24:27

Right? You know, it's funny, you talk about emotions don't follow that logic and to you know, I wish there's been because there's been times I've sat down and I've said you know, okay, I understand, you know, emotionally what's happening like, I I know that I'm having a bad day, and I know I feel down. I know what it's related to now I'm aware of it. Just feel better. Yes, why isn't this working? Why isn't this working? Why can't I snap my fingers? Because now I'm aware of it right? I'm aware of it logically, I'm aware of it, why can't I just snap my fingers and feel better?

Chaplain Krista Hull 25:09

It is a process for sure. We have to practice. It's a practice.

Leighann Lovely 25:16

Right it is a practice it is, you know, and and you you would everybody in and out everybody, but so many people think, well, you know, you have to you have to grow in understanding your emotions. And the more you understand about your emotions, the more you can, you know, have control over your emotions. Well, that really, it's just that now we understand why we feel that way. So we can process our way out, and it doesn't take as long to kind of process, you know, get through getting out of that. But you still cannot fix it. You still have to go through all of the steps in order to heal from even a bad day. Sometimes I have to come home and I look at my husband and he goes, Oh, I don't want to talk to you. And I'm like, nope, not today. Like, let's get through dinner, let's get our daughter to bed. And then I'm gonna go huff and puff on the couch with my cup of tea and relax. And maybe in an hour after that we can have a normal conversation without me biting off your head for you saying hi.

Chaplain Krista Hull 26:26

And I just realized we forgot we kind of talked about this before we started the podcast, but really also taking care of our bodies like because we're both struggling physically right now and sleek. And I know so right on your point. A few let's see what day is it? It's been a long week. Monday, I was still doing well, emotionally and mentally. And the last two days because the sleep and the sickness have really worn me down. I am much weaker, and helping deal with these emotions. So I will tell you, I was really struggling this morning mentally and emotionally. Both of them were like eat and I'm trying to tell myself the truth and trying to move forward. But I'm like, Oh, it is just I just feel though it because it was truth. But that this particular truth was weighing on me more than it was before. And now it seemed more apparent more right in my face that I was struggling to move through it. Because I'm weaker. I'm more worn down and I'm tired. And so you know, we have that too. I mean, we we've got to eat right and sleep right and do what we can. But you know when things are happening and you can't control it all like now and feeling really worn down. You are going to struggle more with those emotions and those thoughts for sure.

Leighann Lovely 27:51

Absolutely. On Monday, I woke up and I messaged my boss and I'm like, I am probably not going to you're probably not going to hear from me much I was diagnosed at you know, I was told I had an ear infection. I am going to pretty much sleep when my I have a puppy who's a monster? Oh, no, I'm going to sleep when he sleeps. The only reason I'm gonna wake up is because he's barking at me. And that pretty much was my Monday. And I remember at one point waking up thinking maybe I should just get an easier job. Maybe I should just I just can't do any of this anymore. Like I just I just remember thinking to myself, like, just my life is so overwhelming right now. It's so you know, you know. And then the next day I woke up I'm like, Wow, I feel world like so much better. Like, wow, okay, I've got my energy, but I'm, like, totally ready for the day. I'm like, I'm so excited. Like, why are you thinking that things were so overwhelming, you know. But you're right, it is 100% Amazing how the physical aspect of your body. If your body is rundown, if you're sick, you're under the weather, it is you are so quick to be like, I can't even climb an anthill, let alone the mountain of work that I have sitting on my desk, like I am ready to just quit my job, I'm gonna go live in my car, and I'm not going to do anything else anymore. I you know, I'll stop home and see the puppy and every once in a while, or maybe I'll just live in my car in my driveway and my husband could come out and bring me I'm just I'm ready to quit. And, you know, it's a fleeting thought, of course, you know, in that moment of complete weakness when I don't want to lift my head up. But then all of a sudden, it's you know, now I'm feeling better. I'm on my antibiotics, and I wake up and I'm like, Okay, what was I thinking?

Chaplain Krista Hull 29:43

And then we have those seasons to where it's things that are out of our control that are just overwhelming and weighing on us because of other people in our life. Or someone that you know, that we're serving or working with. And you know, when they're really hurting, you can still be taken care of Help, but it's still weighs on you to a point. And again, it is affecting us. And we, I think, especially those that are us are very driven, or we can discount that a lot and keep moving. But we have to acknowledge that it is still affecting us, we are not at 100%, even because of these other relationships, or who we're working with or helping, and in remembering that, and then also giving ourselves grace. Because then then I think that's when I at least, can start beating myself up more like I'm not doing enough, I'm not getting enough done. And this should have been done already. And what the heck is wrong with you, you know, all those things, that's when I start to beat myself up when these other circumstances start weighing. And I'm still trying to do things, but it is affecting me being at my best potential because it is big stuff. So that's the other way to that we struggle.

Leighann Lovely 30:58

And I think that a lot of people, they they set this bar, and they think I have to be able to, I have to be able to jump over that. But in reality, I think that and women expecially in women, we set this bar way too high for ourselves, nobody is expecting us to jump over it. Yet. We've you know, we've we've put it at 100 feet, and everybody else is like it should be at like 50 You know what, what are you doing it? Nobody ever told you that you had to set it at 100 It's supposed to be at 50 feet, and nobody expects you to get there. But you're like, No, no, I'm gonna get there. No, you're not like, but we all seem to just continue to set it up there. And then we get upset with ourselves when we don't, when we can't jump at. That's probably a bad analogy, maybe, you know, six feet. And you know, everybody else is like, you can't jump six feet, you can jump maybe three feet, you know, at a really, really fast running start. And I probably still trip over it. The point being is that, you know, women, so often set that bar way too high for ourselves. And everybody else looking around, especially the other women are like, Why are you doing that, but they do it to themselves as well. And then we're trying to we take on the world. And then we get disappointed with ourselves when we can't do everything because nobody's expecting us to do everything.

Chaplain Krista Hull 32:21

Right? I'm a list, I'm a list checker. So if I don't get enough things on my list, because that's when I feel most productive when I'm like, Okay, check, check, check, I got all of these things done. And when I don't get to check off too many things, those days are very disappointing. But that again, that's how I made that is part of how I operate. And so that's what I accept that but I also Yes, I do, again, that's with boundaries is I can only do what I can do today. And that's I have to leave it and so if I have done my best today, then I have to be okay with that. And that's really important for like everything that you're saying that all of us can remind ourselves and again, we're going to have our bad days, we're going to have our things where we get mad, but if but staying there's the problem, right? We can always have all these issues, it's a choice whether we're going to just keep going there or are we are going to adjust our attitude, adjust our thoughts adjust, again, mental emotional of you are only able to do what you're able to do in a certain amount of hours. And we all have different gifts. And we can all do different things or more of certain things than other things. But knowing who you are. So I'm obviously a big proponent of understanding yourself and your gifts and your weaknesses, knowing what you're good at and doing the best at that. And then accepting that what your weaknesses are, you're not going to change them, you may. But that's where you need more help and support. So that's another part of right balancing and health and doing everything is knowing you're doing the best you can with the strengths that you have. And you know how to get the support and the help with the weaknesses that you have.

Leighann Lovely 34:04

Absolutely, absolutely. And one thing and I'm a list person too, like not all the time, but you know, my brain is starting to get old and I can't remember everything all the time anymore,

Chaplain Krista Hull 34:16

Right? Yeah. So so.

Leighann Lovely 34:19

I'm getting there. Yeah. Hey, 41. No. So I make you know, I make lists too. And but I but I have started to account for the fact that if I don't check off that list today, it will get done tomorrow, because I have started to realize that the best intentions does not always account for the client calling me saying I need you to do this today or the whatever it might be and life is so unexpected all the time. Like things are constantly getting in the way of the best intentions.

Chaplain Krista Hull 34:56

If our biggest frustrations are because things didn't go the way we Wanted, the way we plan the way we hope and how often I mean, there are parts of our days that go that way. But in general, like you said, that's just not how life works. We keep trying to make it go that way.

Leighann Lovely 35:12

Exactly. Now imagine being an obsessive compulsive that that can't handle, change and can't handle things not going your way. And I'm being I'm semi being serious here, because there are people who really cannot handle things not going exactly the way. So the the, the more easygoing you are with intention, obviously, because you don't want to be so easygoing that you just don't care. But if you also want to be, you know, intentional about what you want to do, but with the understanding that things just don't, don't, they just don't always go. You know, they just don't always go right. And when they don't, you got to go with the flow and you got to do what you can do what you said, you know, do the best that you can today. Because there's going to be a tomorrow and if you think that way.

Chaplain Krista Hull 36:05

Should have a lot too much. Yeah, you should have a pretty happy ending

Leighann Lovely 36:09

You know, every day except when you you know come home and your husband doesn't want to talk to you because he can see the look on your face

Chaplain Krista Hull 36:18

For everybody then happens everyone's I'm thinking your your your daughter doesn't go with that though. She's not so she's like, No, I need my mommy. She doesn't obey those those looks that you have. She has her own plans.

Leighann Lovely 36:32

Yes, she's four. So it's pretty much like, No, I want Mommy, I want Mommy, I want mommy and it's either she's attached to my leg. Or if I'm sitting down, she's on my back. Today, actually, she says I don't want mommy. I want daddy. I'm like I'm okay with that. Yes, so she eats she she equally shares. She equally shares her her love with him with both of us. Right now. It's definitely not with the dog. She equally is sharing her hatred. 100% towards him. Oh. I shouldn't say equally. She's 100% sharing her hatred towards him. I shouldn't say hatred, either. But she's she's not taking well to the 10 week old puppy that we have at this point.

Chaplain Krista Hull 37:24

Sure. eater eating up stuff.

Leighann Lovely 37:26

He's Yeah, he's still in the needle sharp teeth biting.

Chaplain Krista Hull 37:30

Oh, yes, Yes.

Leighann Lovely 37:34

So how large at this point, you're talking about getting another home? I mean, are you expanding?

Chaplain Krista Hull 37:42

So no, we don't have a home.

Leighann Lovely 37:44

Oh, okay. Okay. i Oh, yeah,

Chaplain Krista Hull 37:47

Yes, we started working with women before again. So we adjusted because oh, we can do we can help them? Oh, they do need us right now? What can we do? So there are some women that we can help right now. But that have somewhere to live. And if they don't we actually look for housing and services for them. But we are shopping for a home right now we are on the lookout on the hunt in this fun market. And we have a few very specific things like price, size of rooms, how many rooms things like that? So yes, so trying to find that. And we have made a few offers that were unsuccessful. But yeah, looking to open that home in Waukesha County, is where we're at right now.

Leighann Lovely 38:33

That's amazing. And how many rooms are you? Are you looking for in that home?

Chaplain Krista Hull 38:39

Oh, as much as we can get for the money that we have. But it. So group home CBRF is basically what it's called. And there's those are for all kinds of services. But that's what we'd be considered by the state of Wisconsin. And you can serve up to eight women in that in that home. So again, keeping it as a home, but a little a little crazy with some eight traumatize women, you know, so yes, as many as many as we are able. And then obviously, we need a bed in space for because we love 24 hour people in the home. So more during the day, but during the night, someone will always be there as well. So there'll be a rotation, so we need space for that as well.

Leighann Lovely 39:23

Wow. And is this going to be a home that would be open for women who have children if they needed to stay?

Chaplain Krista Hull 39:32

So most often, they do not have children or custody of their children, but surprisingly, really, because it is I mean, how is it that you're being sold for sex and you have a child? It is quite interesting in those dynamics, how it actually can happen and be possible. And so we actually have there's another group that kind of does a support system for parents and helping watching their children. And so we have been in the talk With another nonprofit in trying to work out with their volunteers and our volunteers of, you know, providing care for those kids, but allowing their mom to really, so they wouldn't be a place for the kids to live as well. But yet, there would still be that connection, that support, they were not surrendering, you know, another trauma, surrendering their rights for their kid that they actually have, but supporting them through that, but supporting them to build up their personhood before they have to, you know, handle, you know, because we know, raising kids can be really hard. And again, like we just said, when they want, they want, they don't care if Mommy's having a bad day, or mommy can't handle anything right now. So we want to make sure the kids are cared for really well. And so as mom at the same time, and then again, still working on that relationship, and then as she's ready to leave, you know, looking and helping them move forward as a family,

Leighann Lovely 40:57

Right. And this would allow for also limiting the amount of trauma for the children without having social services and everything else involved. And so those kids would be taken care of well, and that's like, that's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. So if someone wanted to reach out to you, or contact you, and I just figured I would bring it up now. But if somebody wanted to reach out to contact, you get involved, or, you know, donate to your cause, all of that kind of stuff, how would they go about doing that?

Chaplain Krista Hull 41:32

Well, they can obviously go to our website, which is redeem, and restore.org. And there's lots of information, we do presentations as well. They can volunteer, they can donate, and we need everything all the time, that will never change we'll need we rely very heavily on volunteers. We have I call it we have one and a half staff persons at current time right now. But everyone else is volunteers. And we will always rely heavily on volunteers so we make can stay sustainable. And so we need lots of people sharing their gifts, whatever they are, again, running a business, working out in networking and fundraising, and then again, immediate direct needs for the women as well. And then financially, again, providing for the home the support services that aren't volunteered the needs that aren't, you know, covered from that need to be covered financially. So, obviously, there's always a great need, they can always email me as well, which is Krista at redeem and restore.org. And check us out. We have we're on social media, Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and I have a podcast as well, to learn a little bit more encouraging stories life empowered. But yeah, you can find us all over.

Leighann Lovely 42:55

Excellent. Now, before we wrap up, I have the season or the question of the season. So I would love to talk to you about that. That question. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Chaplain Krista Hull 43:16

I guess I would probably go back to probably in high school. Because going back before there again, I'm so young, it doesn't matter what I told myself then. But if I was in high school, if I tell myself that I really do need to find some people that I can trust that I can really talk to, that I don't have to figure out everything by myself, that there are some people they're hard to find, but be patient and and try to look for those relationships of people that you can talk to and trust and like and be there for them as well not just take but a gift. I guess that would be what I wish I could do.

Leighann Lovely 44:00

Yes. Krista, I really appreciate you being so open and honest to talk about your past and your story and to, you know, to talk about what you do what you I mean, you're you're you're such an amazing woman. You know, it is it's obvious that you are in the right place, that God has led you to the right place. There's I mean, there's no words to say how amazing what you do is you truly are out there helping people who who need help. And it's it's life altering for a lot of women. And so I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.

Chaplain Krista Hull 44:43

Well, thank you. I don't really agree I'm too amazing, but I get to be a part of amazing work and I'm thankful for that and I am thankful for your kind words. Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 44:51

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So Don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day

E-mail - krista@redeemandrestore.org

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaplain-krista-hull-b8862431/

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/joyfulhull

Podcast - Life Empowered Podcast - https://redeemandrestore.org/category/podcast/

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, women, home, struggling, support, life, volunteers, normal, care, Waukesha county, emotions, vulnerable, Krista, point, helping, talk, happening, mommy, relationship, weighing

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Michael Creed is a driven and true entrepreneur, like many, he did not have an easy path and in the mortgage industry, things will always be hills, valleys, and mountains to be conquered. Michael, however, is a force that has built a successful team and processes that has proven results. As a leader, he not only wears many hats, he creates policy runs a team, and has date night without exception every week.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

I have the honor of speaking with Michael Creed today. Michael Creed is the Branch Manager for Illuminate Home Loans in Brookfield and the Waukesha location, he does much more than just manage. In fact, Michael wears many hats at his job from running his own personal production team to creating systems policies and procedures for branch processing. Michael does it all. In addition, he also coaches, the loan officers and other team leads at his branch working hard to ensure his team is set up for success. As a homeowner before he even graduated college. Michael is very familiar with the pain points that most homeowners and prospective homeowners face. He loves working with clients that are willing to trust his expertise to get mortgages closed quickly, while also improving their quality of life with a holistic financial plan. When at work, Michael is energized by all of his amazing clients and hardworking staff. Outside of work, you'll usually find Michael, rock climbing, alpine skiing, mountain biking, weightlifting, attending church or going on other various outdoor adventures. Michael, it is so exciting to have you on come and talk to me. You've you've done a lot of speaking recently about your formula to this amazing success that you've had. And so I'm excited to have you join me today.

Michael Creed 02:40

Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah, so

Leighann Lovely 02:42

why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Michael Creed 02:46

Awesome. So I am a team lead and also a branch director for illuminate home loans. So I do mortgage lending. And I run a team, a production team that Michael create team then also oversee several other brands, brands within our brand. That's really kind of how we lead in fact, and so I have several other teams that run themselves, I oversee them. And then I also oversee the operations for our branches. Well, I also am part of the ownership group within within the company too.

Leighann Lovely 03:17

Awesome. So you have a responsibility of obviously hiring, firing, bringing on your team building that team internally, so tell me a little bit about that.

Michael Creed 03:29

Yeah, that's exactly that's a big chunk of my job, in fact is is is the recruitment, as I like to call it sounds a lot better to me than recruiting. Right? But yeah, we do i There are all of those things. So we do have an HR department through our corporate office that will help us with the logistics and just making sure that we're doing it right. But ultimately, I am the one that's responsible for all of those things, disciplinary action to write. And, and building that network. So you know, when you look at the different parts of my job, not only is it the production part, like I mentioned, and then the team leads, but yeah, absolutely. The hiring, the firing the finding of individuals as well. So it's a it's a huge part.

Leighann Lovely 04:09

So you've also created and I mentioned that you you know, you've I met you the first time I actually met you, you were you. I saw you as a speaker. And and you talked about you know, the this formula that you've created to create an amazing client experience that has driven outstanding results. I want to focus on that for a little while. Tell me how this was created. And, you know, your kind of the vision that you had when you came up with this or that when it was designed and implemented?

Michael Creed 04:45

Absolutely. The mortgage business is chock full of coaching as is real estate and other types of businesses like that right and maybe even yours, it's that way too. And what happens in that area is we all have these great ideas and a lot of times it's a system or structure, something like that. And then you go to a conference, you're excited about it, and then you come back and you fail miserably at executing these things. And that is what we took was systems from places, you know, what we're doing is not new. You look at different organizations, different coatings, different programs that say do A, B, C, D, we've taken what we feel are the best of each of those things, and then ultimately executed on them. You know, so for example, our three form strategy, which is what I know, you've seen me talk about, that's our strategy for playing for three introductions, by the time of closing, so our clients know early on in the process that we want to, we have a goal of being introduced to three people who are looking to buy a house, sell a house, refinance a mortgage, or in renters that would want to know what their options are by the time of closing. And they know that early on, and along the way, we take care of a ton of small details, to make sure that these clients know that we're different. In the mortgage business, you can't go more than are in the in life, I feel like you can't go more than five minutes without seeing an advertisement for a mortgage, whether it be driving down the road, it's on all the gas pumps at the gas station, it's on your phone, it's in your feeds, it's everywhere. And so if we want to be successful in the mortgage business, we need to be different, we need to stand out, be different. And this allows us to do it the end of the day, if I could boil it down to one thing, we're treating the mortgage process, like the largest transaction of a person's life. And that might sound like ridiculous, right? Because it is and why wouldn't everybody do that. But most people who do mortgages, treat it like a transaction. And so we've really built a process and a client experience around making sure that we can scale the same process every single time for our clients, and also our employees. And really even people who might be potential employees of having a just a great experience and feeling like they're loved and like they're our only client.

Leighann Lovely 06:55

And that's awesome. And you're right, I get, I would say at least two to three calls a day of people who want to, let's talk about your your home, and it always starts off, let's talk about your home mats, and then they give me my address. And, you know, we would love to go over your mortgage and see what we can do for you. And it's gotten to the point where you know, I tried to be nice to him and go, you know, I, I really appreciate your phone call, but I'm not interested. And then they just keep talking and talking. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I've gotten to the point where I can't even be nice because it takes too much time and a hang up on him. So you go through this process with these individuals. And I am assuming that the majority of your business then comes directly back to you from individuals who have experienced this, because they're now referring their friends in because they've had such an amazing experience.

Michael Creed 07:50

Absolutely, with the client experiences that they're going to introduce people to us they know early on that we're looking for that introduction. And really what we do is we talk them through the process of how to actually do it. So we play for three introductions. By closing, as I had mentioned before, using our three firms strategy, our average is 1.9. So of course, we're definitely growing our business through that. And we truly try to get them to understand that we're looking for an introduction versus a referral, because the introduction one is less intrusive. And secondly, it's more, it's less salesy, that's what I mean by that. But it's also implies an action, right, a referral might mean just giving out a business card, you can't introduce people to me without actually introducing them, right. So we talked them through a process of how to make the introduction happen. And more than that, how to do it in the best way for both us and for the person they're introducing to us. Because, as you mentioned, the digital noise or the digital pollution, you know, it's kind of the word of the the times right now, right? The calls the text, the emails are out of control, I opt out of emails and texts constantly. And they just keep coming from different places all over the place. And I'm sure you and all your listeners are shaking their heads as they hear this. And we want to get through that noise. I don't want to blow these people up, you know, for example, the way that we used to do is have them give us a form at the closing. So that's their homework, to give us this form with three names, phone numbers and emails on it. And then we would reach out to those people. And a lot of times they swear at us after we call them four or five times because they're like, why are you bothering us to tell them you know that their brother connected us? And they're like, Oh, you're that guy. So we found a better way of having those introductions actually made as opposed to just the referral form, right. And it allows us to execute more. But also, the mortgage marketing machine is huge. And so still, sometimes we can even have that amazing clients experience. And I just found out today on an annual review call that I did, because we do those every year to check in with our clients that somebody had refinanced a few months ago and never even called us. And so that was very interesting because I know their kids names. In fact, I use them during the meeting, I know all the details, because part of our processes and make sure that we not only have that information, but execute on it and leverage it in time. And so sometimes we'll still miss them. And so that's where a close client strategy also really has to be coming into play. So not just the amazing client experience, it is still an amazing client experience. But it doesn't stop at the closing, which is typically when we get paid, it goes well beyond that. And sometimes we still miss it, even in a case like I just described happens. And thankfully, that's rare. But it definitely, definitely is a huge part of our business. I actually started in the mortgage business back in 2004, making phone calls for lead shops, just like what's happening, what you're talking about, and worked in about 26 States at that time, that was before personal licensing came into effect like it is today. And it's actually not the most gratifying job in the planet, because you never get to meet your customers, you know. And so, we've really moved away from that, and into a much more personal experience through what we do.

Leighann Lovely 10:59

Now, we've talked about this amazing client experience. And you've talked about gathering this information, knowing your clients, you know, their kids names, and, and, again, me coming from a sales, you know, world I understand, you know, some of that gathering of information, obviously, I'm in a completely different industry. So it's a very different, you know, cycle for me, but you gather some of this information, and how through that process, do you make these individuals feel special? What is it that really grabs them? Is it you know, hand holding them through it? What makes you stand out at the end to really make them go? Wow, this was this was amazing.

Michael Creed 11:45

That's a great question. And really, it depends on the engagement of the client. Some of them will fill are all about you format, which again, that's coming from coaching, that's nothing, it's not our thing, you'll hear all about you all over the place, but they'll fill it out completely, of course, we've modified it to make sure that the questions are what we want, we also are in a spot where we ask for it after they've already applied for the mortgage. So they already feel pretty vulnerable being that we'd have their social security numbers and assets statements and that kind of stuff in hand. So we ask a lot of details that might be a little bit harder to get in other settings. But we've already gotten through that privacy barrier with the client, but it depends on how they engage. So if a client fully fills it out, we're going to know things that lot of their favorites, a lot of things that they want to do fun facts about them, well know what they consider to be a great lending experience. And then that data is put into our lead management system where it's always available at our fingertips every time we talk to the customer. So the clients I did the interview for today mentioned something about being in their home until their oldest shot I'm sorry, their youngest child is out of the house. And so I said, are you talking about Margaret, haven't talked to these clients in over a year, but it's right there. And I know their kids ages and they didn't seem shocked that I remember their kids name, but I'm confident that they were like, How in the world do this guy remember my kid's name from a year ago? Right? That's an example of what I'm talking about. It's the little things but there are other things along the way. You know, when we are when we're talking to the client early on, we understand what their theme is or their why behind buying the house. We're going to develop that with them. And we get the details and we listen intently. And every so often, we're gonna remind them that they're one step closer to that goal. Now there's a family we had helped a few years ago, that wanted to move out of the city into a safer neighborhood because their their son was riding his bike more and more. And he wanted to get farther and farther from home and mom wanted to stop worrying. The client we did a not a review, but an actual buyer console for just today. She's buying a new house in a different area because she wants to be able to run a loan she likes to run but she can't feel comfortable running alone where she lives right now, those kinds of things, we're going to remind them along the way that they're one step closer to getting that safer home one step closer to that bigger yard. One step closer to whatever it is that their goals are. We're also going to execute on little things like their favorite candy. If we know that they will always get a note in the mail with a box that we used to do it live but we've with the pandemic, we've moved these the pandemic caused us to learn a better way. And zoom is where we're doing most of our buyer consults today because we have the same conversion rate face to face on on screen as we did in person but allows us to get better at doing those we're faster at them and of course nobody has to drive to our office so we typically don't see our clients until the closing for the first time in person these days. Prior to the pandemic we would have their favorite candy for them when they came to the buyer console now we will ship it to them with a note in there in the in the mail envelope that says you know it's an personalized note with their name written by hand basically says Leanne we look forward to showing you how sweet the mortgage process can be. So the message is the same all the time. But the candies are different every single time. So based on what they told us their favorite candy would be doing that we have to modify that isn't this summer If we don't want to send chocolate in the mail, it gets a little bit messy. But that's an example of it. And along the way, we're going to personalize as many things as we can, our entire team understands this concept. And, and always has that data available. We do a lot of mortgages. Last year, we did 470 transactions, we need to know a lot of detail and have a system to do this to do it well, and that's part of it, too. So behind the scenes, there's a very built out system to make sure that we can do this well and quickly with the volume that we're doing

Leighann Lovely 15:34

right now. And by the way, my favorite candy is Lindahl. So if you feel the need to, No kidding,

Michael Creed 15:42

no, love it, love it.

Leighann Lovely 15:44

So that's awesome. Those fine details, people, people leave details about themselves in every conversation they have. And often they forget that they've even left those details, you know, out to the public. So for somebody to pick up on those, those very subtle, you know, that subtle information that's available, and then to, to capitalize on, I don't think capitalize is the right word, but to turn that around, and to be able to, you know, offer those little things that are just going to kind of make them feel special, and make them feel known. And, you know, yeah, special in in any way is, is important because one of the most stressful things in life is to go through the mortgage process, the buying process of a home, it's it is one of the biggest thing, it is the biggest thing that you're ever going to buy. I mean, you're putting there, and you're right, all of the private information that you're putting out there is, it's insane. I've done it a couple of times now. And it's it's very, you know, you feel like you're standing in a room naked, and everybody's like, okay, let's pick this apart, let's examine everything, because that's what you know, you have to do in order to get a loan, because it's a huge loan. So it's awesome that you're, you know, you're making that you're making that person feel comfortable and feel special during that process. So now, you mentioned your team, people are trained on this, how do you go about making sure that your team is trained and understands this process?

Michael Creed 17:25

For the most part, our templates are built to drive the user of those templates to have to think so for example, in a template that's going to go up for say, a conditional approval, it's going to start with congratulations, you're one step closer to and then it says in all caps, insert theme here. And so that means they're going to have to look in the lead management system, find out why the person is buying a house and then craft in their own words, that sentence. And so they're prompted throughout the process to do that. And some are better than others. In other words, some get it far better than others. And along the way, as I see them executing or not executing well, I will just gently coach them, you know, story I could tell you happened to be our office manager for a while my office manager was also my mother She has since retired, we had a client who wanted to do, they told us their favorite candy was extra dark chocolate Lindor truffles, and we're doing a class that was actually a real estate office class. So it wasn't a client but a business partner because we don't I mentioned that we do this for our employees and our customers. We also do it with our business partners that we work with regularly. They just help them see that we're different from time to time. We'll try to do it we got it there's there's regulations, we have to play with it within right stay within those rules. But you know, some chocolate is not a big deal. When we know it's their favorite. And so this one was mentioned extra dark chocolate Lindor truffles. And when the package came back to the office for me to do what I need to do with it, it was just dark chocolate Linda truffles. And she had mentioned that's close enough. And so then at that point, we have a conversation about how it's not it's either if someone's that specific where they say extra dark chocolate Lindor truffles, you have no option but to get them extra dark chocolate Linda truffles now if they just say they like chocolate, you can get anything right as long as it's chocolate and not a Snickers bar or something like that. Because that has chocolate in it but it isn't chocolate. So it the nuances like that, we just have to train in it as as we can, because you never really know how it's going to come up. But if the if the user of the templates the person in the system that's doing that part of the job, whether it's pre contract, post contract, post closing whatever that might be, they they are prompted pretty easily to do the best with that and then the salespeople they know that information is valuable so if they're on their A game when they're in the in the system making their calls, they're going to have a right there and be in the record so that they can easily see what we have?

Leighann Lovely 20:02

Well, and that's it, I would think that it's got to be kind of fun to, you know, this is my personality, I feel like it's kind of fun to be able to like, oh, wow, I get to, you know, order this or I get to put, you know, this package together whatever it might be. Yeah, I would think that would be kind of fun. And I love doing that kind of stuff I love, you know, sending little gift baskets to my clients, or hey, you're appreciated that kind of things, and for you would be clients. And so I would assume that, you know, some of your team really enjoy doing that. And maybe some of your team. It's just like, Okay, it's just the thing we do.

Michael Creed 20:45

Yeah, a lot of our a lot of our team members actually utilize my wife, she's, that's her, my wife's works for the company, as well as for the branch. And that's her primary job is to procure a lot of these things for us. Not the candy, but the rest of it, the stuff that we do later in the process. And they enjoy that because they don't have to do it. You know, I actually, I don't enjoy that process to find those things, either. But it is fun to give them but finding them is different, right? And so, you know, and really, and I think that it takes a very thoughtful, not necessarily stressed out person is in the loan officer thing. I don't know if that's necessarily a term, but I like to use it is very complicated. You know, I've been doing this for almost 18 years. And still, every single week come across something I've never seen before, my most recent example was just yesterday, right? And so it's stressful in that area, because you again, are dealing with the largest transaction or person's life, you want it to go smooth. And you know that everything relies on that experience being amazing from start to finish. And so I don't have a lot of free brain space to figure out what the gift might be. Unless the client makes it obvious, then we would pass that along to Lynn. But the fact is, some people do love it. But everybody loves getting the gift. And we track what we're when this would be coming to the thank you gift at closing. We track that. So we know what's in the package. When they open it. We can we're not surprised just the same because I might not have picked it out. But they love getting those and having that done. Absolutely. It's fun, for sure for everybody. Right?

Leighann Lovely 22:21

Okay, so now you've mentioned that your mother worked with you, your wife works with you. So now I've got to ask like, Do you have any other family members working with you?

Michael Creed 22:34

Do you not so the reason that my mom actually landed here was because I had hired a mom was an assistant to Teresa, who is my primary assistant. And so I had hired Teresa as a loan officer who's before she decided to move into my primary pre approval expert role. And so my mother was actually wrapping up kind of the tail end of her career at the bank that Teresa was at, and she was actually Teresa's assistant. And then our office manager, front desk person had resigned. So I just brought my mother over for a couple years. And I learned a lot through that process. She's not technically savvy at all, and I am the exact opposite of that. I'm also the one where I just like, just think about it and then do it Don't Don't make me write you 100 page manual and how it goes. So it was stressful for me to have that happen. But on the same note, the person who had left the position was the exact opposite of that was really good at getting things done, but really bad at people skills, like she would intentionally make the coffee late in the morning because she knew it really irritated somebody she didn't like, my mom was the exact opposite of that. And that being sweet and loving to everybody. They loved her. They called her the office mom, but at the same time. So that was good for morale, but there wasn't much work. And my wife, she was like an experiment would be the best way to describe that with assistance, like what does that look like? So she is my first ever assistant, she helped us with the loan process. She hated it. She felt like she wanted people to get their loans more than they wanted them to get their loans. And then because like you mentioned, you know, it's a stressful process, you use the term naked. I would normally say that too. But I wasn't sure if you're cool with it. But now that I know you are that what I would say is you know, people have already been fully exposed or naked. When we ask them for the information on the all about you. That's typically what I'd say. But now that we're cool, and we can talk like that, that's good.

Leighann Lovely 24:36

Using that what's not talked about? Actually, you know, anything beyond that.

Michael Creed 24:40

I know what you mean, I know what you mean, we're good. But that is a that is a process that I think people would hate and my wife did not enjoy chasing that at all chasing those documents. Like why do I want you to get your loan more than you, you know, like, that's kind of her very clear, you know, get move a mindset that she has. And so she she has gone from being an active role in loan processing went in loan process went into actually a support role in processing for a while. And that she found really stressed her out because she ultimately was feeling the weight on her shoulders of getting these people out of the houses on time. And if something was looking ugly, she couldn't do it. And she had always found that behind the scenes is exactly where she wants to be, where the time is not, you know, it's not if she misses a getting a closing gift on time. It's not the end of the world, though, she's pretty good about making sure it happens. But ya know, other family members know a lot of family, you know, we do have other teams that have relations, a lot of our people know everybody, in fact, every single person, but one that works in my branch, has been referred to us by somebody else, sometimes there's been relations. So

Leighann Lovely 25:49

that's, that's fun. Well, that means that you have an environment where people, you know, for, if you have employees who are referring people that they know that they love in that means that you have a company that people want to work at, which means that you have a great culture there. And, you know, if you are able to have a great culture, and create an awesome experience for your clients, you're clearly doing something, right. I mean, it's sad to say, but there are a lot of companies out there that can't do either one of those things. Sure. And, you know, to have both of those down. That's awesome.

Michael Creed 26:30

It's about being intentional and doing the work, you know, I'll stand on stages, whether it be you know, be the large stages, like what you've seen me speaker talk about coming here on a digital stage where, you know, the audience size could be massive, right. And as as, as you grow, and tell people what we do, because it I know that most people won't do it, the work, you have to put the work in to make this work, you have to put the work in to make anything, you can't be great. Just sitting around, you know, sometimes you can figure something out, or you can set it and forget it. But you know, that's kind of the quintessential American dream, right? And you see that stuff on social media from time to time. But that's because before you got to that place, there was you know, lots of hours of work, right? And that's, that's where it comes in. But yeah, you have to be intentional to do the work in all those areas.

Leighann Lovely 27:21

Right. And I've heard that, you know, this season, I have heard multiple people use that word, that one single word, intentional, it's a simple, you have to be intentional about what you want your actions, the things you want to change. I mean, that's it's a simple, one word kind of explains it all. And so, well, you didn't have a straight path to where you are. Right now. You've you've kind of gone through, you know, little, you know, valleys and hills and mountains. I said that completely wrong, but you know, it doesn't matter. Anyways, I'd love to hear your story of of where you are, and how you landed here.

Michael Creed 28:09

Yes, definitely. mountains and valleys, no doubt about that. And usually, they were pretty big ones. I mean, the, the fact is, is that the mortgage industry is one that pays well, when you do well. And when I started in 2004, it was before all the rules were in place that they are today to try to protect the consumer in some ways that they, they needed to be right, they need to be protected from the lenders and the loan officers in some ways. And so my first year in the business, I was in my mid 20s. And and came fresh out of college and had a six figure commission income. And that was right, that was great. I was on the mountain started with the mountains, right. And we were on the mountains for a while. And and then eventually, the housing market crashed. And that faucet turned off so fast. I don't know that we would even say I went from the peak to the valley, I'm pretty sure it was peak straight over the cliff to the valley, and how that all came about. And we went from having business coming out of our ears to nothing. We're actually in a similar cycle two that right now it's not as dramatic as it had been. But coming out of the pandemic where the rates have been crazy low, the lowest ever in the recorded history of mortgage rates and housing frenzy like nothing to now we're we're in we're seeing record inflation and rates rising faster than they ever had. If you look at the history of data going back to 1971 and never risen as fast as they are now. So we're kind of getting into that. It looks like a mountain on the on the rate graph, but really it's a valley. But the difference is is is that along the way, we came from being a commodity or I and my team and our business model came from being a commodity like I said, you can get a mortgage anywhere. I mentioned that earlier, to being value adds to our business partners, to our staff and our team members, even people outside of the industry that we might not necessarily work with every single day, but still could use some of our concepts to be better. And, and then of course, our clients right so that they keep coming back over and over, or they send us their family, their kids even sometimes happens now, right as as as the career progresses. And so that definitely smooths the roller coaster ride that the market can create. If you're being transactional all the time. Does that answer your question?

Leighann Lovely 30:29

Yes. So in 2004 it so you've been in the industry since 2004? Correct. And never wavered from the industry.

Michael Creed 30:40

Right.

Leighann Lovely 30:41

So you've, you've you, wow, okay, so you wrote it out? While many people in your position, we're running for the hills, you just jumped on your surfboard and went over the cliff and hoped that not your surfboard, your your, what do you ride down mountains, I know, there's some type of boards. You just, you just decided, hey, I'm gonna jump on my snowboard. And I'm gonna see if I, if I actually hit something at the bottom of this cliff, and you kept riding that roller coaster. And as we all know, that, you know, no matter what things eventually do bounce back. But wow, that's, that's intensity.

Michael Creed 31:27

It is it was a lot and it wasn't easy. You know, I know that your question of the season is, if you could is this if you could go back and to your younger self and your your, your your younger self advice? When would you go back to? And what advice would you give yourself? That's the question of the season. And the answer to that is really a follow up to your statement that you just made, I would have gone back to that person who was in his mid 20s, making crazy amounts of money, he came from a background that was nothing like that, and tell him to not spend every one of those dollars, the money was coming in just as going out just as fast as it was coming in. Right. And then, like you mentioned the cliff. And what my surfboard slash snowboard stopped on was to the point where I had a rental property tenant stopped paying the rent. And then that's when the faucet had shut off. And I mentioned that earlier, the faucet had shut off already. And I had gotten to the point where I had a Rolex in my closet that I had won for being the top producer a couple of years earlier, I never wore it, I'm not a fancy watch kind of guy, I will typically damage them in whatever things I'm doing with my activities, like rock climbing, for example, will really ruin a watch and learn that the hard way, I never worked, I had to pull that closet out or that that that Rolex out of my closet and sell it on eBay, to keep myself from missing a payment. Like that's how bad it was right? Like, literally one month away from the house of cards being completely blown over that I don't. And so the advice would be, and in fact, I've been telling my team this regularly for the last two years as we were through the pandemic making more loans than we've ever made before, which of course means more money than ever before, that if they're not saving most of their money right now, they're crazy, because it's going to stop and it's going to be ugly. And we're there right now. And so that would be the younger, that would be the advice, I would have done things way different back then, from a financial perspective, to to live wisely within that because not only had I been spending all that money, I continued to use credit cards for a while afterwards expecting you to come back quickly and got myself almost into $100,000 in debt, with credit cards outside of my mortgage and my car loans and all these other debts that I had, because that's just how I lived debt servicing that ultimately put us on a path where we had about, I think it took us seven or eight years to climb out of that. Because while I really wanted to file bankruptcy. So we see that stuff all the time, right? That the laws are there for a reason to help people get a new start when they need to. But I couldn't wrap my head around doing that when I bought all those things that I didn't really need. And so we really we mean my wife and I, cuz she's been along for this whole ride. We've been married 21 years, the that we really had to hunker down and completely change everything and move from a space of spending all the time to paying back all that debt and saving at the same time and it took a very long time to do it. But that would be the advice that answer your question of the season for sure would be that.

Leighann Lovely 34:36

So thank you for sharing that but I'm going to wrap this I'm going to I'm going to sum all of that up so instead of so here's what you're in essence saying instead of riding the surfboard and have the surfboard habit we're at a mountain Do you have a surfboard? So Zen of riding the damn board down you should have put On parachutes are parachutes, and slowly gone down.

Michael Creed 35:05

But yeah that's That's exactly right having having a parachute is it would have been would have been that safety net that makes this, these droughts that much easier. There's no doubt about that.

Leighann Lovely 35:17

And I appreciate you sharing that because you know, a lot of people, and, and hey, I'm I'll be perfectly honest around that time, I ended up having to file for bankruptcy, but I did not have a savings I did not have. I was, I had recently graduated with my college degree, I was working in corporate HR, and I got laid off, and from there it was laid off, get a job, layoff people let get laid off myself, and eventually it was just, uh, every time I got a new job it was for, I think what I started, I was making nearly 60,000 a year with a new degree, and then it was get a job get laid off and get 5000 Less get laid off and get another 5000 loss. And eventually, it was like, Oh, my gosh, I'm making, you know, $35,000 a year, and I was making almost 16 it was like, how am I going to survive? I mean, and I just just graduated with $100,000 in student loans.

Michael Creed 36:23

Right? Yes. And that, that, like I said, those rules are there for a reason? I don't I don't I don't ever think poorly of someone that uses it. I think it's like it's there for a reason. But you're absolutely right. You know, and I that's the stance that I took was just me trying to wrap my head around it because it wasn't an educate. I mean, I had student loans too, don't get me wrong, really, the credit cards were what got me it was almost $90,000 Like I said, in credit cards, if that means I bought $90,000 of stuff I didn't need, like, you know, whether it be eating out or you know, cocktails or junk that I don't you know, clothing, whatever it might be. Right. And so that was for me, it was it just I couldn't do it.

Leighann Lovely 37:07

You know. And I had I had I actually had contacted every single one of my and I have very small amount and contacted every single one of my debtors. And I said, I am I'm at a point where I cannot pay my bills. I had insurance on one of them that if I had gotten to that point that they would cover me, there was only one holdout I had $3,500. And it was through a bank and I will not name the bank. I said I cannot pay it. I want to make good on this. I don't want to have to file bankruptcy, but I cannot make my payments. Will you work with me until I'm back on my feet? And they said no. If you don't make your payment, we are going to be forced to sue you. And I went, You gotta be kidding me. Every one of my other debtors are willing to work with me. And they said, Sorry, it's our policy. And that was at the point where I said, I have no choice, but to file for bankruptcy. Then you do it over $3,500

Michael Creed 38:05

Surprise me I live and breathe in that industry as I do. Right. So lots of lots of rules that we have to follow. But right. And I say That was sarcasm, of course there's there are a lot of good ones don't get me wrong, but there are some head scratchers for sure. Where it would make sense to just do something that makes sense.

Leighann Lovely 38:24

And, Well it's, again, their, it's their corporate policy. And you know, once a month, they take all of their non payers to court all at the same time. It's just polished. I get it, you know, this is the way the world works. But anyways, tangent. So we've answered the question of the season, we have a couple of more minutes, you talked about your wife working with a company now here's, here's something I know about you that I would love, just to briefly touch on, because I am all about, you know, work life balance, I'm all about, you know, making sure that we have, you know, we do what we love, we, you know, have that that balance in our life and that we're able to walk away and enjoy life because we don't wake up in the morning saying, hey, I want to live to work. Rather, we work to live. And you have been very vocal about the you know about your family about you know that you set boundaries, and you have date night set with your wife, tell me about you know, the the philosophy behind your work life balance and how you've income to make sure that you set those boundaries for yourself.

Michael Creed 39:35

So my natural bend is to work all the time. That will be my default. If I have nothing else to do, I'm going to work always. And I think that that's probably I saw that in my dad. In fact, I didn't see him much growing up because he was working all the time. So I've tried to be intentional and again back to that word of in parts of my life. And so a lot of the things that I do are in first, right so I have priorities and I know what they are My faith is number one, and I need to be, I need to make sure that I'm reading the Bible. Every day. I don't hit it every day but I hit it most my wife is second my family and then my my work, which means my customers, my staff, the whole nine yards. And so and and part of being able to be who I need to be for all those things is also making sure that I'm feeling good. I'm in the best shape of my life. Right now, for example, because I finally figured out that working out is what keeps my brain clear. I figured that out, like four years ago, I am in my 40s. And I figured that out four years ago, I figured a lot of things out in the last say seven ish years about the activities that I do today, that really helped me to thrive. And so there's not just the date night, there's a lot of things every morning I wake up, the only day that I do not days that I do not work out are Sunday mornings, and Wednesday mornings, otherwise, I work out every other day, first thing in the morning. But before I even do that, I will meditate it and also done some my Bible reading my devotions for the day. And then I work. And I generally will work until around six or seven at night, I usually get home between six and seven. I'll hang out with my family for a little bit. But they're teenagers at this point. So they're gone half the time. And so I often have to work a little bit more when I get home. But in the day, that's a day that I don't have something in the evening, which is really only a Monday and some Tuesday. So every other Tuesday I'm leading our community group. Every Wednesday, I'm involved in our youth group every Thursday is date night. And then by Friday, I'm exhausted. So I usually go to the sauna. perspire has their their their Infrared Saunas nearby, I'll stop there on the way home and just recharge, and then, and then I'm home. So all of those things are about having those place cards and all of my schedule rotates around those date night doesn't get moved, it's non negotiable. If anything, I might show up a little I might meet my wife that's at 630. Or she might come to somewhere where I'm if I'm at a networking event, but it's does it's non negotiable. Youth Group is non negotiable during the school year in the summertime, it's more flexible, because that's the agreement with the the leadership team, you know, but I still tried to get the most tanks, a lot of fun. It's nothing, nothing like hanging out with a bunch of teenagers to feel like I'm in my 20s again. So there's there's a lot of those things that are going on. And it comes back to the intentionality is that there's non negotiables. And sometimes things have to wait. You know, a perfect example of that was you and I meeting up for lunch, it almost took me almost a month to get back to a date a while back the date that we can meet for lunch, because there's a group of things that just have to sit there until I can get to him. Just yesterday, I reached out to somebody, it's now June. We're recording this in June. I hope that's okay to say that the they email me about having lunch in April. And I just hadn't gotten to it right. And so there's importance in priorities, and we have to figure out what those are. And it can't be work. Because if you do that eventually then everything around you go sour and you don't have importance. You know, none of those things I was talking about are moneymakers for me, but they keep my brain in a place where I can be my best me when I'm here. It also forces me to be more efficient. I still work about 55 hours a week, I track that I report back to my team every for every day, my personal production team and my whole branch every Friday what I've done, there's a lot list of activities, and I work a lot. There's no doubt about that. But I still get all those other things done. And it's about being intentional and never making excuses.

Leighann Lovely 43:34

And that's awesome. As long as you're happy with the hours that you work as long as your family is happy with the hours that you work in the time that you spend with them. There. It's absolutely there's nothing wrong with that. It I mean is. It's different for every single person, right? Yeah. And my husband will sometimes tell me you work too much. And I'm like, Well, I I don't work. I put in my 40 hours, 40 plus hours. That's not why I put in, you know, a lot of hours that my day job. And then I spend I spend a great deal of time. And he's usually when my family is sleeping on my podcast because it's my passion project. It's I enjoy it. I love it. It's something that you know, I it clears my head, I have fun with it. I have a four year old so I do it when she's sleeping. She goes to bed at 730 at night. And I also have a date night because those those are all things that are extremely important to the the overall wellness. My overall mental wellness, my overall health, wellness, the balance that we find and you've clearly found a balance that works for you. i You know, it's just it's the people who Oh, I work 70 hours a week and you know, look at me be proud of me. Well, what where's your life?

Michael Creed 44:49

Right? I smiled when you mentioned that that's you know that we all have our own number because every one of these things that I do also has a goal and I in some things I want to be under goals, some things I want to be over the goal, right? And my goal for hours worked is 45. And I have yet to find a way to do that. You know, so it's 55 is more than I want to work. It's more than my family wants me to work. But it isn't. I mean, there were times where it was, like 70 hours. There's no doubt about that. But a lot of it comes down to just being able to say no, sometimes to or have people wait, I you know, it's just again, back to the priorities and intentionality.

Leighann Lovely 45:27

Absolutely. And you know, what, a lot of wildly successful people do have trouble saying no. While they are on their way to success, once they get to the top, they have figured out that not and I shouldn't say to the top. But once they've gotten to a certain level, they realize, Wow, I need to learn how to say no. Right? That's all part of the learning process. Absolutely. Michael, this has been such an amazing conversation. If somebody wanted to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Michael Creed 46:00

There's two ways to reach out one, if you're just looking for information on on who we are applying for a mortgage exctera, you can just go to my website, which is closewithmichael.com C l O S E W I T H M I C H A E L . C O M. I'm sure you'll have that mentioned somewhere as well, right?

Leighann Lovely 46:19

Yep.

Michael Creed 46:19

And if you want to text us, our team line is open for anybody. It's Area code 262-696-9048. That's 9048. Just shoot us a text. It's a bunch of us on that line, someone will get back to you pretty quickly, even outside hours in many cases. And it's a great way to just say hi,

Leighann Lovely 46:40

Excellent. Like I said, this has been such an amazing conversation. I really appreciate your time today. And all of that information on how to reach out to you will be in the shownotes

Michael Creed 46:49

Very cool. Thank you so much for your time. It was great to talk to you. We

Leighann Lovely 46:53

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Website – www.closewithmichael.com

Text line for information - 262-696-9048

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelcreed/

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

client, mortgage, people, mentioned, team, loan officer, michael, process, business, closing, year, work, riding, point, execute, wife, person, home, lead, absolutely

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Dr. Batsheva Guy is one amazing woman with determination and dedication not only in her personal life but in her professional life. She specializes in Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion consulting. She is highly educated; she is a mother but most importantly Sheva is a person that wears her heart on her sleeve and is honest. This was a one-of-a-kind conversation that is worth listening to.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

If you are an HR professional, business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling, our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Today I have the privilege and honor of speaking with an amazing strong woman, Dr. Batsheva Guy is a change management consulting Senior Associate, a Diversity Equity and Inclusion consultant, and participatory action researcher. She is an alumnus of the educational and community based action research doctorial program at the University of Cincinnati, Sheva implements participatory and community based methods to engage and support diverse groups and advocate for inclusive and equitable practices in higher educational and healthcare institutions to drive change management. Sheva, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you. You have such an amazing background and you're so authentic and out there. So I'm really excited to jump in. Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 02:08

Absolutely. So thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. This is my first podcast. So I'm, I'm really pumped. Yeah, my name is Dr. Batsheva Guy, but everyone calls me Sheva. I'm also open to Bat that's also chill. So I currently am in an interesting spot because I am amidst transitioning careers. So I was in academia for 10 years, I was at the University of Cincinnati, throughout my undergraduate, my masters my doctoral degree, and I worked primarily in educational development, Student Affairs, and diversity and inclusion work. So really, the backbone of what I do is diversity inclusion. And then the research side of things is I'm obsessed with participatory methods and participatory engagement. So that's kind of the crux of what I do. And so currently, I transitioned into consulting. So that's a little bit about my career. I'm also a mom, I've got three awesome kids, my two older sons were eight and nine. We adopted them in 2020. And then I had my daughter who's now two and a half in December 2019. So amidst the pandemic, we went from zero to three kids, my husband and I, it was a certainly an adventure, but it was a great time. Let's see what else I love to travel. I love to read love to cook. Some of the things I enjoy doing in my free time.

Leighann Lovely 03:42

Awesome. And you also have some amazing tattoos, which I have, you know, you were very open. I love the fact that, you know, you have pictures of them online, which is another great. This is another movement that I have seen, which is it was beautiful. I'm actually if people could see them there. They're absolutely beautiful. It's a form of of artwork. Definitely. So. So you you mentioned that you're amidst a career change. So where are you you know, headed right now. What's, what's this career change?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 04:18

Yeah, so I yeah, like I mentioned, I was at the University of Cincinnati for 10 years, you know, never honestly never thought that I was going to leave but then COVID hit and I realized there's a lot out there in terms of flexibility in work and being able to utilize my transferable skills, the great resignation and whatnot, all that fun stuff. I had a brief stint at a company I shall not name doing diversity and inclusion consulting work, but in a nutshell, they weren't ready for diversity and inclusion. They just weren't ready to really embrace it for everything that I was. So I started looking for something knew I was unemployed for a bit hung out with my family. And by happenstance came upon here on through LinkedIn. So as you mentioned, I'm super active on LinkedIn, talk about my tattoos and what it means to really be professional, not look, judging a book by its cover all of that fun stuff. So yeah, I'm pivoting and I'm doing change management consulting, which I feel like utilizes a lot of my skills in my past, like research data, participatory methods, integrating a lot of inclusive practice into that making sure that diverse populations feel included, feel a sense of belonging are able to bring their voice to the table and feel like they have access to that table. So even though it's a whole new world, I feel like everything I've done in the past has led me to this point. And yeah, I'm learning something new every single day, my team is awesome. But we have this little list of terms and acronyms that they use it at my company a lot. And I'm like turned into that all the time. Because I'm so new. I'm like, someone just said something, let me ping someone on teams are looking at this list to figure out what's going on. So it's definitely been a transition not without its challenges, but I was really lucky to have a ton of support, and find a place that really saw my skills as transferable and as, as a positive as opposed to oh, she's never done consulting before, we're not going to take a chance on her. So I'm very grateful for that

Leighann Lovely 06:26

Oh, that's awesome. And, you know, this is a world of definitely a world of pivoting and changing. And, you know, it's amazing over the last couple of years, how much we all have had to do that. The great companies out there are are realizing that they have to be able to pivot constantly in order to stay, I guess, stay in front of the curve as much as possible. So that's awesome. So you again, you mentioned that you are a mom, I like to always put that one first. As you know, I am a mother first. You know, I am I am a wife, and and then my career, but so you have three children. You mentioned that you No, I did not realize that while you became a mother of three, like all at the pretty much at the same time.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 07:16

Yep. Within months. Yep.

Leighann Lovely 07:19

Wow. So do you mind talking to me a little bit about that? I mean, did this or was this a whoops, we didn't realize or I mean.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 07:31

So it's like a risk was a really interesting story. So not to get into like the nitty gritty details, but my husband always struggled with fertility issues. And we had always talked even aside from you know, trying to have biological children fostering. And so we decided, you know, let's just go for it. Let's sign up for foster care classes. This was early 2019, maybe spring 2019. We're like, Let's go for it. So we started doing the foster care classes. Really awesome community. I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, shout out to beat shakers, who got our foster care license through their phenomenal. And yeah, so we started pursuing our foster care license. And we were doing like, for the foster to adopt program. Knowing that the goal of foster care is reunification, not anticipating we'd be able to adopt anytime soon. I'm really just wanted to provide a home for kiddos that are in a transition period and just give them the love and support that they need. So we were doing those foster care classes. And it was actually and they were every and they were like every Saturday for several for a few months. Like they were intense, like all day. And it was actually the it was actually Mother's Day weekend that I was like, I was about to start birth control again. And I was like, I feel funny. I'm going to take a pregnancy test. So I still had a bunch of my old like, so I was taking pregnancy test constantly, when we're doing fertility. I was like, I'm gonna take a pregnancy test. So I took one, I took another one I took another and I was like this cannot like this cannot be happy. So I wake my husband up, I was like, hey, time for Tiger ready for foster care class, by the way, I'm pregnant. And so it was like it was one of those things where like, if you miss a class, you have to wait several months to be able to take it again. So we're like, Okay, we just found out that we're pregnant. And we have to get up at eight, like seven in the morning on a Saturday to get to this class that starts at eight or nine or whatever, across the city from us. And so we keep taking the classes, keep taking the classes, disclose to our social worker like hey, just you know, like we are expecting and we have to the class we're like, we're already in this like we're we can get our foster care license and then wait to foster kids or you know, do whatever. So, we got our foster care license, and I'm in August 2019. And I was due I was due January 2020. And So we got her foster care license August 2019. And we got asked to do a two week respite care for two boys that were five and six. And for those of you who don't know respite care is kind of kids that are in between foster homes or the Foster, there's a foster parent that maybe having a surgery or a major life event or is going on a trip, they can take the kids to have a transition place for up to two weeks. So they asked us and I said, You know what? I suppose like, I'm like, we'll be fine. Like, well, taking these kids for two weeks come to find out that their previous foster home, they were having some health issues, and they weren't able to continue to continue fostering them. So they were in respite care with us. They could find another foster home, sir with us. And we're like, Well, why? Because I guess we're only on the respite list because of the baby coming. And we said, Okay, this is ridiculous. Like these kids don't need to move again. They had moved like five times in the last year. Like crazy what these like awful what these kids have gone through. And so I'm like, they're staying here. They're not moving and going anywhere else. So they were with us. Ever since they've been with us ever since we I ended up having my daughter. Almost four weeks early. I went into labor on Christmas. 2019. So yeah, it was insane. It's like three in the morning, the day after Christmas was when I had my daughter. She wasn't due till like January 19 or 20th or something like that. So then, you know, the boys are in school in person in school, and I was on maternity leave. And then the week I was supposed to go back was March 13 2020. So that was the week that everything shut down. So I never came back officially, quote unquote, I'm doing air quotes from maternity leave. I was like, Okay, now I've got I mean, my husband, of course was there and he was he was working at the time. But once I came realize like, this is going to be like this for a while with the kids in virtual school and my daughter at home. My husband ended up quitting to become a stay at home dad and we just went to parents of three like that. And then that next November was when we adopted the boys. That is all 2020 Oh, my Oh, from OG between August and December 2019. One three months, one from zero children to three of them. It was

Leighann Lovely 12:26

wow, that's that is amazing. That I have no words for that that you and your husband are are amazing to to be able to take that on. I mean, that wow.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 12:42

You know, people's everyone says like, Oh, you're so amazing. You're so wonderful. And I'm like you should you need to be a fly on the wall and hear the chaos in the house. Like you won't call me amazing if you hear all the nonsense that goes. But yeah, it was definitely not how we planned to start our family. But it worked out perfectly. The boys have been with us for several years now. They're eight and nine. Yeah, and they're doing just they're doing fantastic. Like they're thriving. They're Yeah, they're doing great. They're amazing big brothers. My daughter is like obsessed with them like she does every I swear the reason why she like walked so early talked so early is because of I swear it's because of them, like mimicking them and wanting to be just like them.

Leighann Lovely 13:24

That's great. That's absolutely awesome. And what a role model that these boys and your little your daughter is going to have is somebody who's, you know, out there being so authentic and you know, wanting to help and you know, change the views of the world to try to, you know, help with inclusion and diversity. And so let's let's, you know, you are a very outspoken woman, you're, you know, willing, willing to say what everybody in the room is thinking. And I love people like that, because I have a tendency to be that person as well at times. And sometimes my husband looks at me and goes, you did and and I'm like, oh, oh, oops, sorry. I'm not the only one thinking it. Right. Right. So let's talk a little bit about that. Let's talk a little bit about some of the things that you've you that you, I guess, say that everybody's thinking.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 14:23

Yeah, so I Yeah, I'm definitely I'm transparent, honest, authentic. Like, I feel like I there I feel like there's so many people out there that feel like they have to hide who they really are in a professional space. And I I personally I can't work that way. I was trying to be really intentional because at my university, I felt like I could be the where I was working. I felt like I could be authentic and I really wanted to find a place that embrace me for all of what I was. So there's a lot of things that I shout about one of them as you mentioned being tattoos like I've got a chess piece I've got a sleeve You're like, my arms are probably going to be my back is covered like everything. I mean, I've got lots of tattoos, I've got piercings, I've got all of it. And that doesn't change who I am as a professional person, I have a Master's, I have a PhD, I do continuing education, like, none of that has, like has anything to do with you know what I can do, right. And some other aspects that I like to talk about a lot is mental health. I have anxiety, I've been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, I have some PTSD symptoms, I've struggled with an eating disorder, and none of that. And because I feel like because I persevered through that I am better at my job, I'm able to take care of my kids and understand what they're going through at a level that I'm proud of. And I embrace all of those labels, because that's who I am. And I understand when people don't want to talk about it, it. It's not everyone's journey to be that loud person. But I feel like by being loud about these things about what really makes people professional and what makes people even better at what they do, you know, I feel like that. I feel like it helps others in a way, like being able to hear someone else that has gone through what they have gone through. And say like, Hey, this may be a label, but it's not who you are, it has made you stronger, and we shouldn't be afraid to talk about it. Because this is our whole lives. Like I may come into work one day, and you know, I'm having a really bad anxiety day. Right? And I want to be off camera. Like that should be cool, right? Or I want to work remote that day. If I'm not normal job, that should be okay. As long as I'm doing my job, right. I always follow through, I do what I have to do I meet my deadlines. I go above and beyond. And I have multiple diagnoses. And I've got a bunch of tattoos. Whatever, you know, who cares

Leighann Lovely 16:58

We are not one thing. We are like an onion, we are multiple layers of a whole bunch of different things. And if we were only one thing, wouldn't that kind of be boring?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 17:10

Exactly. Exactly. And like, yeah, and I feel like one of one of the other things like I told him, You know, I, I talk about a lot of things like on LinkedIn, especially that like can skirt the line between Oh, is that getting too political is like getting to this or that. But we live in this. We live in a world where we can just decide like what goes on despite what's going on in the world. Right? Like, like so like, socially, politically, all of it like with all the shootings that have been going on in the US, how am I supposed to continue quote, unquote, business as usual, when I'm terrified for my children going to school every day, I'm afraid for my black sons who walked down to the bus stop, what can happen between the House and the bus stop? What's going to happen to them at school, you know, those are things that I can't help but bring with me every day. But I feel like it allows me to see to to have a perspective on diversity and inclusion in the workplace, that if I wasn't bringing that to work every day, I wouldn't be able to do the work that I do.

Leighann Lovely 18:19

Right? We're no longer living in a time period of the Leave It to Beaver where the you know, the dad comes home from work and drops his his briefcase at the door, and all of a sudden is a family man. And the reverse where he goes to work and he's the businessman. The line has now bled into both we are who we are. And we need to be because trying to compartmentalize those two different, you know, areas, or those two different lives is unhealthy. First of all, trying to be a different person at those two different places all the time. It's it is truly unhealthy. You're you're constantly trying to put up a barrier. And it just it's not sustainable. It's not. Right. And it has proven time and time again, that the more authentic you are, the more people want to be around the authentic people. Right? That the more and I've seen this as a salesperson, the more authentic I am in front of my clients and my customers, the more they want to work with me and the more they appreciate working with me. So I can't be my authentic self if I'm not being my whole self, the whole person I am which means that there are times that I'm going to talk about my daughter there's times that I'm going to talk about this puppy I just recently got that won't stop biting me line that everybody thinks exists. It is now bleeding over into you know everything. I can no longer walk in, drop my baggage and say okay, I'm now working Leighann, And as far as the way that we look and the way that we're past the whole idea that you have to wear this pressed suit that starched and, and be, and that's what's going to be the professional, I see people come into professional meetings all the time wearing jeans and a nice shirt. I see professionals all the time wearing a variety of, there's no long we're not living in a day where you have to wear stockings with a dress, and women wear skirts and men wear suits and tights. That's not how business is conducted anymore. And I think that over the last two years, with us sitting in our homes, and half the people, you know, stand up and they're wearing pajama pants proves that we can do our job without putting on this uncomfortable suit. To do the job. Oh, yeah. And that. Right. And we, as a society have so long talked about, oh, the arts, you know, you know, you go to an art show, and oh, the arts are so wonderful. Well, who's to say that art has to be done on one, you know, art can be anything, I could think that art is beautiful on whatever your chosen art form is? If that is tattoos, if that is piercings if that is, I don't know, painting your dog blue. Again, I have dogs on the ring. If that's right, right. If that is your chosen form of art, as long as it is not hurting anybody, ethical moral, all of those not illegal, then, why are we judging other people? Right? We have sold it that has nothing to do with how we do business. It is simply and it has nothing to do with intelligent level and has nothing to do with anybody not being able to do a job. So get over yourself people, right?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 21:58

I completely agree with that notion. This is what I tell my kids to like, the biggest thing is to make sure that you are keeping yourself safe and that you're not hurting anybody. Like all of the rules in our house are based around that like respect and safety. And, you know, none of my tattoos are offensive. Heck, this sleeve is from a children's film that's from Alice in Wonderland. Like my entire arm is from Alice in Wonderland. Right. So yeah, that's my thought too. Like, I curse like a sailor. But I'm not saying any words to hurt anybody. I'm saying it because I stub my toe or because I'm excited. Right, like, and so that's also you know, what I what I kind of instill in my children is, is Yeah, express your creativity, you know, be open as long as everyone's as long as someone's getting hurt, and you're not hurting anyone. Good. Go for it, do it. Show yourself as who you authentically are. And I agree to that. COVID like has blurred the lines so much between like, what is work and what is personal life, like the other day I was on a call and I mentioned to you earlier that I'm we're potty training our two and a half year old and she just like decided to open my office door without pants on and just start running around. And I was meeting with like, I was a it was a director or managing director at Huron. I can't remember who it was at the time. But this has happened a couple of times, but also, okay, like, this is cool. And they were like, it's so chill. Like, I have a three-year-old or whatever. It's not a big deal. I get it, you know? And so I just got up and I closed the door and was I wearing yoga pants? Yes, I was was I wearing pajama pants, maybe one of those two was definitely my MO and I'm still doing my job. You know, I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And really what I care about people like that's like the crux of like, everything that I do. And so as long as I'm demonstrating that I think being authentic, you can do an even better job connecting to people, as you mentioned by being authentic. Right?

Leighann Lovely 23:58

Right now as we sit, I am sitting in my my studio and behind me is my my child and I's art room. And I have a bunch of drawings that her and I did together. I love it. Right? I mean, I I'm not I suppose I can put up a you know, a curtain and I do have curtains for certain meetings, but I'm not you know, this is this is me. This is my daughter and eyes, you know, and sometimes it's a talking piece. I've had kids, like you said, I've had guests, kids pop in there and they all of a sudden they're like, oh, there's Mickey and I'm like, oh yeah.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 24:36

She'll go Mickey Mouse Minnie Mouse.

Leighann Lovely 24:40

Right, This is this is where my studio is. It's the only place that I have actual privacy in my home. So yep, you know, it is what it is and we've seen now what I can't remember which it was a news caster. He was doing an ad Interview. And his this was like a live interview and his daughter came running in. And there was nothing that he could do. And yes, and then you see his wife come running down. And she literally, like slid into the room on her knees trying to stop the young children. And then later, he actually did. Okay, let's redo this. But let's properly introduce my family instead of this, like chaotic moment happening. I think that was an eye opener for the country. It was, oh, we have personal lives behind that closed door. There might be chaos inciting. And I think that we all we've all experienced it, where we're like, oh my gosh, is that door about to open? Because I can hear them behind it. And it's like, and, and like you mentioned, you know, your, your two-year-old in a two and a half year old potty training, hey, I've got a I got a four year old. So yeah, that was all happening in my house, you know, during the pandemic, where I'm like, Oh, my God. And, and again, my daughter loves to run around the house naked, you know, getting ready for bath, and she's just like, I want to be naked. And I'm like,

Dr. Batsheva Guy 26:13

Yeah, she's like, let's go. No Clothes run around. Right?

Leighann Lovely 26:18

If it wasn't, like, inappropriate for adults, I think we'd probably do it too.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 26:25

That's why we weren't comfy clothes. Like we want to be comfortable. Right? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I just want to be comfortable.

Leighann Lovely 26:32

You know, that's, that's what life is all about. It's, you know, let's find our comfort zone. And, and now it's finally blood over. But we have proven that we can do our job while life is happening.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 26:48

Yep. Yeah. And yeah, I feel like companies either have embraced it and said, like, yeah, like, Let's go all in on this and realize what this means for the future of work, or they have tried really hard to keep things the same. And I think that's the difference between a great company and a not so great. Company, right? Because you have to embrace the change and be adaptive.

Leighann Lovely 27:14

Absolutely. So on that topic, I would like to talk a little bit, you know, more specifically about the kind of work that you're doing. So yeah, you mentioned, you know, the participatory, you know, coaching and tell me a little bit more about how that, you know, works for you. And, you know, a little bit more about how you work with individuals, or before I got ahead of myself and say something that's not even in line with it, why don't you tell me a little bit about, you know, the specifics of the consulting that you do?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 27:49

Yeah, so I'll just kind of go back a little bit. So action research is, and participatory methods is what I got, is essentially what my doctorate was about what my dissertation and participatory methods like, it sounds like this, like big like academic speak. And it's really not, it can be used for academic research, which I have done. But it can also be used for cultural change, program development, change management, which is the field that I'm in now. And really just an I mentioned, like, people being the heart of everything that I do, and participatory methods really, in, in a nutshell, or in like, the simplest terms is making sure that all stakeholders are involved in included in decision making processes, and are able to provide feedback. So using participatory methods is a great way to keep multiple folks at all levels of an organization engaged, consistently asking for feedback, and using that feedback to take action and creating positive change. So it's really about it's not like me swooping in to an organization saying, okay, so this is all that's wrong. And this is what we need to change. And this is how we're going to do it. It's collaboratively working with folks that are in an organization from the Vice President and leadership all the way down to frontline workers, right? Every single voice is equally important. And every voice has a different perspective to bring and how we can leverage the positive aspects of what's happening in our organization. Right. So I never worked from a deficit model, and say, Okay, so these are the great things that our organization has to offer. And these are our gaps. So how can we take what's great about what we do and our people and our mission and use that to create action items to fill those gaps? So yeah, it's really collaborative. very inclusive, because it asked questions like Okay, is everyone at this everyone that needs to be at the table at the table? If they're not at the table, what are some equity issues, what's causing them not to be able to be at the table, once they're at the table, do they feel like they belong, and they can actually share their voice on what's going on. So it's very people centered, humanistic, engaging, and you have to be authentic throughout the process you have to be. So it's a very collaborative process. And you I was mentioning having to be authentic, because if you're not authentic with the stakeholders you're working with in an organization, then then you're not going to get that buy in, they're not going to trust you, they're not gonna want to implement whatever processes you suggest. And then everything just falls apart

Leighann Lovely 30:35

So you actually, your organization that you work for, is, is brought in, as a consulting company in my understanding this, right, and you go and you actually work with them, because they're interested in in changing the world, or figuring out how to better the culture at their organization.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 30:56

So here on actually, so that's just like the basics that are not the basis but like what I've done related to participatory research, I'm on week six of my work with her on. And I'm really hoping to be able to bring those participatory aspects into the work that here on the great work that Aaron's already doing. But I am actually on a team. And what Huron typically does is they work with higher education and health care and other organizations and institutions to implement large scale technology implementations. So I'm on the change management side. So not like a que I'm not a techy person, like, I'm not that like it kind of technical person on the team. But I feel like the change management team and the change management folks are really at the core of change happening, because we're the ones that are on the ground, gathering the feedback, seeing how things are going, providing training. And again, like that feedback loop that I was talking about making sure we're consistently getting that feedback from stakeholders, not to pick on Okay, to kind of pick on

Leighann Lovely 32:01

The number one organizations out there that need help our higher education and healthcare. Totally, I mean, I feel like there, then there's, there's a couple other ones out there that I can pick on, but I'm not going to I'm only because you brought those up. But yeah, I feel like I feel like healthcare is is always because they're so huge. Because they're, you know, you've got some of the the major massive companies and I can, you know, like, in here in Milwaukee, you've got like freighters and it's just this massive view of a company. And it's like, how do you even begin to help them change that culture and to, you know, make it more inclusive and make it so that the people at the top the people who have the ability to start making those changes, know what the people on the ground level, the people who are feeling, you know, the strains every day are being heard. And it sounds like that's, you know, what? It's like a software that that they can actually be able to be okay.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 33:13

Yep. And yeah, and I had cloud. Yep. Yeah. And I feel like,

Leighann Lovely 33:17

though, that is the type of companies that really need the help, Sam, with higher education companies, I feel like for being in the education world that they are worlds behind where they should be, you would think that they would be on the cutting edge all the time, because they're supposed to be, you know, spinning out people who are on the cutting edge of their education. Right. But I feel like internally, they're constantly struggling with that. And I, again, I don't know, the inner workings of the higher education systems, but I just feel a lot of people get very frustrated from what I've heard, from the higher education and from and from the local school, just regular education. I mean, just general school systems. It's, that's just seems backwards to me, you would think that those that that education would be at the cutting edge of of cultural change.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 34:25

Yeah, I like so. I like to describe it and I said this before and like in a variety of like different settings and contexts. But the way that I describe it just coming from a background in higher education, is that universities, they are businesses and I think he even said like I think even said company or business like in relation to that. So universities are businesses are private or private businesses, revenue, their revenue generating businesses that are masquerading as nonprofits and quite free frankly, paying their employees barely livable wages at, at best. And that's, you know, those are the people, the faculty, the staff that are supposed to be educating, you know, our next generation of leaders right are being paid quite frankly, in an embarrassing amount of money not and that's not even touching on how much K through 12 educators are making, right? I mean, it's, it's insane. So until we get to the point where we truly can demonstrate that we value, the folks that are working in education, it's just gonna, I mean, it's gonna keep falling apart the way that it is. And that was one of the reasons why I loved higher education was like, I thought I was going to stay forever. I just loved my students, I was invested so much in them. And I realized, like, when is the time to invest in myself, though. And from moving from, I was a program director, making $60,000 as a program director, with two direct reports

Leighann Lovely 36:07

with your doctorate with your PhD.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 36:11

And I'm very transparent about that, too. That's one of the things that I shout about is like, we need to be transparent about what we're getting paid. Because if we're not, then women are going to continue to get under underpaid people of color are going to continue to get underpaid black women are gonna continue to get underpaid, if we're not talking about it. So So I shout about it. So I within I mean, after, after that, I managed to double my salary, and then some with the benefits that I have now within a year by moving sectors, so you're gonna keep seeing this great resignation of people leaving higher ed, until we see them really put their money where their mouths are and show their educators that they value them and they want them to stay.

Leighann Lovely 36:52

Well, and I think that we're going to see, I, in my personal opinion, I think that we're going to see higher education start to crumble, because less and less companies are putting as much emphasis on higher education, because I think, in part there, they're failing at preparing individuals for the true workforce. They are, they're creating a group of individuals who are great at memorization, great at passing tests, but not great at being prepared for Hey, howdy. And not in every not in. Let me preface this by saying not in, not for every program, but there are programs out there that they're like, Okay, make sure that you can pass this test, all you have to do is go and read this book, memorize this book, and come and pass the test. But that does not prepare them for being in the workforce where you can't read a book, and know how to do your job. It's you have to be able to think for yourself and problem solve. And I'm not sure that the education program is teaching those those skills. I mean,

Dr. Batsheva Guy 38:03

yeah, and I so it's interesting. So I come from a very privileged place, considering where I came from. Because the one thing I will say, and I mean, I again, like I love working for the University of Cincinnati, like I still stay connected with so many folks there. I, we got, we're really lucky. There we are. And I was really lucky there because one of the big big cells of students coming to University of Cincinnati is the Cooperative Education Program. I was in I was within the College of Engineering. Before I left and students like I will tell you, they got like that real world, like you had to Co Op, like every other semester with I can't remember exactly the rules off the top of my head. That was one of the things that got washed away. I loved but like they had to call, they had to go in and do the real work. Get that real world experience, get those internships and they weren't paid, which is great. So there are there is some there were definitely flaws in the system. And I do agree with you that there is a lot of like, especially, you know, if we're talking about like students that are trying to get into grad school or med school, like they need to get A's, right. So their biggest concern like yeah, they want to get the real world skills, but they need to get those A's too, because it's so competitive. And I think the the vision of like a holistic application review doesn't really exist yet. People are looking at the test scores, like like I said, like I have a PhD and I'm like the worst test taker ever. Terrible. So there's definitely something to be said about, like needing to get more holistic when we're evaluating our students.

Leighann Lovely 39:35

I have test anxiety. Now I went to I took a majority of the classes that I took was not about taking a test it was about here, you need to go and write a paper on this. It has to be at least, you know, I think it was 1515 pages long typed. And you have to like you actually had to do the work and research it That was just an a weekly, weekly, we had to turn in a paper on subtopics, you had different topics to choose from based on whatever we were doing at that time. And then on top of that, you were also had to participate in different programs throughout the week. So it was a ton of work. I also was working full time during the time that I was going for my bachelor's degree in Human Resource Management. Now, I at the end of that had learned so much. But if I would have said, if they would have said, here, you got to take a test now I would have been like, Oh, my God, oh, my God, I got tested anxiety, but the amount that I learned and having to do my own research, and then turn around and write an entire paper, minimum 15 pages long typed, was insane. I mean, now that right there, I think is way more valuable than sitting your your, your, your class down and saying, Okay, now take a test on what we just learned. Because now you have created two things they have learned the skill of researching on their own to, they're going to retain a heck of a lot more of that information. Because they've had to find the information on their own. And it's usually

Dr. Batsheva Guy 41:12

It's what they care about to write, and they're finding something they care and that's 100 or so I teach to I teach psychology and like, so I teach like, the aspect of like, how we like remember things and how we what encoding is like and how, like doing these real world things are the things that are going to help you remember them and that like just what you're describing is exactly how I teach my classes like I give like occasional like quizzes on some reading material. But I don't give tests like it's always papers. And it's always about what do you want to learn about? What do you want to take out of this class, you have to research it. And you have to give me like, it still needs to be robust, but and like my students love it. They really I think they do they seem like they do. Right?

Leighann Lovely 41:51

Even when I was at WCTC going for computer programming, I remember I had to write I mean, this was a monster paper. For my final it was my final exam, I had to write a paper and I had to write, I had to, like multiple things to choose from. And my choice was the, the history and progression of the original computer. So where it originated from up until the point and this was in 1990. No, this was in 2000. So it was basically the beginning of where the original when the original computer was created all the way through where we were at that time. And this, this was a massive paper. So I mean, it was so much research going from, you know, the very first computer and it was so exciting to me, because I was really interested in it. And so it was so easy to write. And that for you know, for people to be able to choose their topic, obviously within the realms of what you're learning, but then to do the research, and it teaches individuals to And nowadays, you know, easy it is to do research. Hey, Alexa, hey, Google, Hey, Siri, hey, tell me about this. Either way, they're still doing research. They're still asked, they still have to ask the right questions. We've gone off on a tangent, which, you know, I'm like, so I'm big on that. I always go off on a sort of, it's like, no worries, no worries. But I mean, it's just, yeah, higher education always gets me it gets me going. Because I believe that it's important. But I also believe that there are there are gaps that need to be addressed. So well. So we are we are coming to time. This season. I am asking everybody, you know, a question of the season. That's my thing. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice. When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 43:57

Mm hmm. And I know like you send me this question, and I still have like so many different ways I could go with it. But I think what I would do is I would actually go back just because I have so many years of education under my belt. I would go to like my little like first year undergrad, little Sheva, who was pre med and was trying to double major in biology and psychology and like neuro psych or, like, do all this stuff. I would tell her to just honestly trust the process like I my life and my career has gone in so many zigzags. And at every turn, I'm like, Okay, this is going to be the next thing that I'm doing forever. This is going to be the next thing I'm doing forever. And I never just trusted that I would find my way naturally as opposed to trying to force things right. I was trying to force everything and force like myself into a box. So I would say just be open to opportunity. Embrace it, and not worry about necessarily every second where you're going to be 10 years from now, right? Just take it as a learning opportunity. And yeah, just just embrace the different things that will come your way. Because if I didn't, if I, I feel like I was always thinking, like, so many years in advance, as opposed to now thinking, Where am I at now? And how can I become an a well rounded person and who I am now as opposed to constantly worrying about what's next? So and then I would also say get on anxiety medication sooner. Get on that Zoloft. It'll help you go home go to therapy.

Leighann Lovely 45:48

I think we all would, I think we all would say that to our younger, hey, stop stressing get on that zone.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 45:55

Like, yeah, get on that Zoloft. Like calm down. It'll work out, you'll figure it out. Like never in a million years, would I have thought that I would be in consulting right now, right. But my 18 year old self was like, I need to know what I'm doing and like, in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and it's gonna stay like this. And it's going to be done. Like with like, the 10 year plan and all that. You just have to let go sometimes?

Leighann Lovely 46:17

Well, and, and I think that at a young age, you know, even when we're in high school, like when we're we're what freshmen and then sophomore, and they're like, Okay, well, what do you want to be when you grow up? Are you getting the good grades so that you can, you know, start filling out college applications, and we aren't so early, I know. And that's why so many students are like, Oh, my God, oh, my God. And how many people actually, you know, other than overachievers like you who get your PhD, how many people go to college, get an education, and then actually land in the field that they got the education in, unless you are very intentional. And again, you know, a lot of people end up just going for a general education, because they're like, I'm 18 years old, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And then they're, and then they're, you know, 30 years old, and they're like, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And then they're 35. And they're like, I still don't know what I want to be when I grow up. I love what I'm doing right now, is this what I want to be when I grow up? You know, I mean, there's a lot of you don't have to know, you don't. But hey, if you can, if you can enjoy life and enjoy your job and continue to go with the flow, great. If you want to be extremely intentional and and follow a very specific path. That's also great. So to anybody who's listening, you, you don't have to choose immediately. You can be intentional about not choosing, you can be intentional about choosing. There's multiple ways that you can I started going to school for accounting, then I switched to computer programming. Then I switched to my bachelor's in, you know, in human resource management, so

Dr. Batsheva Guy 48:11

yep. It's all crapshoot like it. Like really? Then yeah, and I'm not in the field that I ever thought I was going to be in. And is it exactly what I studied for? No, but does it relate to a lot of the skills that I picked up along the way? 100% Yes, so. And this year, my goal honestly, like now that I've like started a new career, my goal is to learn as much as I can, and my new career path and my second goals, because I'm coming up on 30 in September, and my goal is to learn how to ride a bike. That's my goal of the year because I never learned so that's my goal the year you've ever learned to ride a bike. My parents never I blame my parents. So we never learned and that's what that's what I'm going to do this year. That's my like, big goal, the year we'll learn how to ride a bike.

Leighann Lovely 48:55

Make sure that you take videos of your progress.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 48:59

It'll be on LinkedIn, you know, oh, no quote or something,

Leighann Lovely 49:04

right? You're never too old to learn something. Never.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 49:09

Never. Never.

Leighann Lovely 49:10

That's awesome. Hey, I want to I know how to ride a bike. But every time I get on it, I'm like, why am I doing this?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 49:19

Yeah, we're actually trying to learn this summer because we're going to the beach and all my kids, other than my youngest, but everyone else had to ride a bike and we're going to be like biking around so I need to learn so I told my husband I said I'll learn how to ride a bike if you get me a pink bike with a basket and he did so now I have to learn how to ride.

Leighann Lovely 49:37

Oh, that's so cute.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 49:40

So that's where I'm at.

Leighann Lovely 49:41

My daughter is now to an age where she she is requested. She's only four and she's like can I get a bike with training wheels and I'm we're like, seriously like you're ready for that already. She knows she's got the she's got the

Dr. Batsheva Guy 49:55

one. Yeah, a little. Yeah, we Ellerbe Yeah. What a big wheeler.

Leighann Lovely 49:59

And she's She rides out round on a on a scooter thing but Jr she's got way too many toys like Yeah, I did not have like I have like two toys in my garage I had a big wheel bike thing. Then I had a bike eventually. I never I have she's the motorized car she's got the scooter she's got the bike she's got like, she's got like half section she's got almost like a a car space full of toys. This it's ridiculous.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 50:30

saying like, if at all.

Leighann Lovely 50:33

Like I would have I would have killed to have one of those little motorized cars where you sit down, you push the pedal and you drive around. I mean, she's only gone like, half a mile. Like, yeah, and it has a remote so that if she like goes the wrong direction I can like she gets really mad when I stopped driving my car

Dr. Batsheva Guy 50:53

at it though. Oh, yeah.

Leighann Lovely 50:56

It's bright pink.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 50:57

Oh, yeah. Funny.

Leighann Lovely 51:02

Okay, well, hey Sheva this has been an amazing conversation. Oh, I've enjoyed it. You truly are an amazing human being not only the professional side of you know, the work that you're doing. But you know, on the adopting children, having three children in one year basically

Dr. Batsheva Guy 51:21

sounds unreal. But no, I appreciate your kindness. And and thank you so much for having me.

Leighann Lovely 51:27

This has been awesome. If somebody wanted to reach out to continue a conversation with you. How would they go about doing that?

Dr. Batsheva Guy 51:33

Yeah, hit me up on LinkedIn for sure. I'm listed under Batsheva Guy or Batsheva would work or Guy PhD something you'll find me I'm on there. You'll figure it out. So yeah, LinkedIn

Leighann Lovely 51:47

Excellent. Thank you so much.

Dr. Batsheva Guy 51:50

Awesome. Catch you later. Thanks so much.

Leighann Lovely 51:53

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/batsheva-guy/

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Ben Zang is not only a brilliant businessman, he ran a successful restaurant. He is one that has had the pleasure of having a second career that offered him time to also raise a family. Ben is a wonderful study of people and business owners alike, taking a human approach to Health care benefits. This is one amazing conversation you should not miss.

Leighann Lovely 00:21

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want, you may be struggling. Our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants, and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann. Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:08

Today, I get to talk with an amazing person, I've had the opportunity to talk with him offline. And now I'm getting the opportunity to talk with him on my podcast today. So I'm greatly honored to have this opportunity, Ben Zeng, after owning a business for almost two decades, Ben and moved on to family life, and life of consulting, he has helped businesses in a variety of fields from operations technologies to employee benefits. It is his diverse background and network of experts that lends value and perspective to his clients. His philosophy on business is that it's very much like raising children. They grow and change over time, so that what fits today may not fit tomorrow, there will be a season for celebration and a season for tough conversations. But always, there should be trust and honesty between him it is with this reverence and responsibility that Ben builds his practice, the foundation of his work and employee benefits centers around three tenants. Transparency, strategy, and trust. Welcome, Ben, I am very excited to have you on today and talk with me. So thank you for joining me.

Ben Zang 02:30

I'm super excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Leighann Lovely 02:33

So Ben, why don't we jump right in? Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

Ben Zang 02:37

Sure. So I am a dad, first three kids, twin, four year olds, and an eight year old. And I am a benefits broker with transition health benefits. So that's what I do. And then of course, loving husband all that good stuff, at least on a good day.

Leighann Lovely 03:01

So what does that mean for a bad day?

Ben Zang 03:07

It means I have to try harder. That's what it usually means.

Leighann Lovely 03:12

Right? No, I, I completely understand that I have a crazy four year old as my audience knows, you know that we've talked about it? Well, excellent. So you are with transition health benefits. You're a senior small group specialist there. So tell me tell me a little bit about you know, what that means?

Ben Zang 03:32

Sure, so I go into small and or medium sized employers and help them figure out their benefit package. You know, I really look at it as the benefits are a way that a company can show they want to take care of their people. So in my job is to kind of how to make that work within the tight margins of a small business. So there's a variety of different creative ways we use to kind of get that accomplished. Along with being that kind of trusted advisor usually when I walk in benefits and employee culture and, and HR kind of touch everything within the company. So if they're on a growth trajectory that makes a difference in their benefit program if they're trying to cut costs, because this is one of those tight cashflow instances within a business that affects the business the benefits. So I try and have a more holistic approach when we look at something like that because your culture and how you how you take care of your people will directly impact how your people take care of your business. So those are the conversations I have and maneuver through.

Leighann Lovely 04:55

You know that's interesting. I I Recently I was in a situation with somebody that loved the company that they were working at. Absolutely loved it. ButI had no choice but to leave that company, because of the health care benefits. They, they knew that they were going into a situation in which they, they needed a higher level of care, and the benefits that they were currently getting at that company, we're not going to be able to cover some of the treatments, and they were offered a job that had extremely rich benefits. And they were basically looking at it going, this other benefit plan is going to cover 100% of my treatment plan, or treatments. And so more that you're able to offer your people and show that you care definitely can be a direct impact on how that company can retain individuals.

Ben Zang 06:09

That's the bit. It's one of the most interesting things about the situation we're in where everybody talks about the great resignation, right? is I actually believe, and I believe this with all of my being because I've seen it, bear out in my own life, that COVID kind of shook everybody up. And so people got a chance to be at home and to reprioritize what they're looking for in an employer. And so I think what you end up seeing is, as people are trying to do work that's more meaningful to themselves. The challenge is always how do I do meaningful work, and not leave my family out in the cold? And I think that's where benefits play a direct correlation on like, the example you gave, if, if they can't take care of themselves, or the the people whom they're in charge of my twins, or my oldest daughter or my wife? How can I work that job? Right. So that's really the conversations we start having. And and I think the hard part, too is, is the healthcare system doesn't make it easy. Right? So anybody who's ever pulled out an explanation of benefits, the first reaction through the first read through is or if they get two pages in, they're like, I have no idea what I'm reading. Right? So how do you interact with the healthcare system? I talked to a business owner didn't know what a deductible was, or max out of pocket, how do you? How do you start to educate people in that part, because insurance companies and the medical, not the medical field, but healthcare as a business makes it their job to not be so transparent.

Leighann Lovely 08:14

Absolutely. And now with the, because of the onset of the pandemic, you have people who were cooped up in their homes, one obviously eating assistance because of health, because of it's a pandemic, where everybody's, you know, being exposed to this horrible thing that's wiping the nation wiping the world. But now, on the flip side of that, we now have people who are experiencing mental health issues, because they've been cooped up. And to your point, the healthcare system does not make it easy to understand your what you have available, you know, to get coverage and what is covered. You may have and the only reason I know this is because I I've experienced trying to understand my benefits trying to you may have mental health coverage, but that might only be for 10 visits a year. Well, what if you're, you, you are experiencing a massive, you know, social anxiety 10 visits a year is not going to help you get over the hump in the immediate. So yeah, to your point, having more resources or, and again, obviously, one conversation is not going to fix the problem that we have with our healthcare system.

Ben Zang 09:46

But a lot of giving up and I'm just gonna say you bring up a really interesting point and the fact that, you know, those 10 visits may be explained, but what they don't say also is, is You can actually do that telephonically too. And a lot of times you get unlimited in the telephonically. And so one of the things COVID did do was it forced us into, hey, zoom, you can do this over video chat, you can do this over. So there are a myriad of solutions out there. But how do you have somebody whose job is like, how do you how does a restaurant worker whose job is to take care of the people in their section or to cook the food? When do they have time to go out and become a health care specialist to understand how to get there?

Leighann Lovely 10:38

Right? Absolutely. You have to and again, to your point, you read the first page, and you go, Wes, what does any of that mean? I don't, and calling them and trust me. And in this. Again, I'm kind of bashing. And I don't mean to but calling and saying can you explain this to me? And I've experienced this where they're like, Well, yeah, it's Baba, blah, blah. And you're like, Yeah, I read that, too. I'm calling you because they don't get it. What does it mean? Well, I don't understand. I can read it just as clearly as you can read it. But I don't I don't understand it. And they're like, well, well, it's this, this and this. And you're like, Okay, yep. I got the bullets on that too.

Ben Zang 11:27

What does that mean? Exactly? What does

Leighann Lovely 11:29

that mean? And then you get a bill and you're like, wait a second, I thought this was covered? Oh, no, not until you've met your deductible? Well, when do I meet my deductible? I feel like I should have met it. I've gone to the doctor a bunch of Oh, no, those were covered service. Well, that doesn't go towards me. And it's like, okay, wait a second. Like, I need a spreadsheet, a couple of spreadsheets to just track all of this stuff. Nobody's got the time to do that. So it is it is yeah, it's absolutely a crazy world. And to have somebody who takes that, and tries to help at least, you know, the owners, the people making those decisions, educate them on that, and then to hopefully have somebody who's educated enough at a company to explain to those employees what any and all of that mean. Because it's it is I mean, and I will tell you that there has been times in my life where I couldn't afford my medications, and trying to navigate getting assistance to the Government, you have to be extremely diligent. And you have to educate yourself on how to it's, you almost have to take a class on how to do that in order to get the assistance, just for your basic medications.

Ben Zang 12:50

Right, your tenacity and trying to figure out that conundrum, so to speak, goes a long way. I mean, there's such a thing as grant writer, well, that's kind of what those subsidies are like, is you have to write your own grant to get help with that. And that's a shame, too, because there's a variety of different reasons why that's all created. And there's a ton of what's called pharmacy rebates and trying to either that doesn't go back to the employer, which is really where it should go. Because they're subsidizing plans, it ends up just going into somebody else's pocket. So it never really kind of reaches that consumer. So there's a ton of things and, and don't get me wrong, there are a ton of people in my industry doing a lot of great work to navigate that stuff. And then there are also doctors themselves who are stepping out of the brokenness of some of the systems and doing some wonderful things like direct primary care, which kind of harkens back to the days where your family went to see one doctor, and and that doctor saw multiple generations of that family, and he handled probably 80 to 90% of what your medical needs were, God willing, and in, in those days, and so people are starting to try and return to that to kind of cut out all the insulated layers within the ability to consume healthcare.

Leighann Lovely 14:39

You know, and it's interesting that you say that because I remember as a child growing up in a small it was considered a small town at that time. It's not so small. Now it's, you know, like any small town that's close to a big city. It's, it's booming, it's growing. I went to the same pediatric doctor and I remember For what at what point he said to me, you can't come to me anymore? And I'm like, What do you mean? He goes, Well, you're 18 you need to go and find, you know, a new primary care doctor. You're firing me. He's like, Well, you don't fall under pediatrics anymore. Oh, yeah, we got a big girl. ever want to go to anybody else? Like, you've been seeing me since I was born? What do you mean? And I, because I wouldn't, you know, I went to the military at 17. He was my doctor, I came back, I'm 18 years old, and I'm like making an appointment. And they're all looking at me funny. I'm like, what? Like, okay, this is pediatrics. Like, I don't want to go anywhere else. You know, but up until that point, that was the only doctor I had ever seen. And then all of a sudden, you go and you start seeing somebody else. And then you move, I moved out of that town into, you know, into a bigger city and, and then it was like, I got a new doctor, that doctor retired, I had to find a new doc. And when I was younger, it took you know, if I called the doctor's office, they could sometimes see me same day. Nowadays, if you need to be same scenes, same day, they're like, you probably should go to urgent care. I'm like, what do you what do you mean, you can't see your My doctor like, how, in fact, I don't even see a doctor, I see my doctor's nurse practitioner. But my primary care doctor is listed as somebody else. I've never even met her. And I'm like, okay, that's weird. But I guess that's common, it's changed so much. Because I'm, you know, again, I'm 41 years old. So it's, I mean, the healthcare system is just, it's so different from when I was a child compared to the way that it is now. And now if you know, I call and say, Hey, I have, you know, this problem, they're like, oh, you should see a specialist.

Ben Zang 17:06

And there's, I mean, there's some great books out American sickness will both infuriate you, and educate you and a lot of kind of how things have evolved, you know, it's kind of like a big snowball. You just keep adding pieces in. And then the next thing, you know, you're like, Yeah, that was supposed to be the head. And I don't know if I can get it. Now. It's the bottom of a new body of a snowman, right? So there's a lot of that kind of stuff within the healthcare system today. And so, and that makes it tough, right? If you're a small business owner, if you own a restaurant, or, you know, your your job is to cut hair, or to manage a salon full of stylists, who, who gave you a healthcare administrative degree along the way, right, there's nobody out there, right. So you know, and there's the individual marketplace too. And that those are, that's become an amazing resource for some of those solopreneurs. And you can go on healthcare.gov. And you can sign up yourself and do that. But I think one of the things that people don't know is that there are people like me out there that they can use free of charge. So, so you don't have to try and navigate a health plan. Because a lot of times you'll do it based on price. Well, maybe you're spending, you know, anywhere from two to $1,000 a month on something that's not going to work for you. Either is over insuring you or under insuring. So yeah, education is always that kind of sticking point. And how do you get it? How do you get it?

Leighann Lovely 18:50

Right? So you have an interesting background, so I'm gonna kind of shift here, you actually, you come from the restaurant industry. And so it's, I'm not gonna say that, you know, how do you end up in healthcare? I mean, usually people are like, Hey, wanna talk about healthcare? No, no, I don't, I'm gonna run later.

Ben Zang 19:13

I mean, not a sexy profession by any means, right? But it's, but

Leighann Lovely 19:17

it's unnecessary. And definitely something that we, it's a conversation we need to continue to have. But what I want to focus on now is, you know, you, you come from the restaurant industry, and so, talk to me about that.

Ben Zang 19:30

So, I have had a very gypsy lifestyle to a certain point, right? And so I owned a restaurant before I'd ever worked in one. Do not recommend it for anybody who, who wants to go this path. So as a lot of like 99% perspiration 1% inspiration. But it teaches you quite a bit and I always say if you want To find a hard worker, hire a manager in a restaurant, because they've they've eaten enough garbage, so to speak from both ends of the stick either the owner and the customer to be able to handle a very high stress point. I left my restaurant when my wife and I got together. And I remember having a conversation that we had a great staff coming in, and that I would be down to 65 hours a week. And my wife literally said, you know, the normal work week is 14. And my comment out to her was, what do people do with the other four days, I don't, I don't know what that means. And so that kind of stuff can so it. I was older when I met my wife, and we wanted to have kids and I knew it was going to be kind of a choice between doing the restaurant or being with my wife and seeing my kids. And so I made the move before any of the kids had come along. But I made the move so that when they did come along, I could be there for them. And, you know, restaurants are interesting.

Ben Zang 21:23

And sometimes I feel like they're they're not given their due as far as what they are. Because really, it's every side of business. In a restaurant, there's research and development, there's production, there's the accounting, there is cashflow management, all of that is within a restaurant. And so the thing that I took from it is the kind of small business mindset. And I did some consulting as I moved kind of down this line. And the two themes that have always kind of played true in my life is those people that were resources for me, I appreciated highly. And the other thing I didn't like was a bully in a room. So there was a bully in the room. It was I didn't like bullies, so I didn't take it well. And so how I ended up here is, is when you look at small businesses, probably their top expenses, their employee, but their second explained expense is the employee benefit package, how they take care of it. And so the lack of transparency, how does a business owner take the second largest expense and not have a transparent? How do you eat an 8% year over year increase in it. And so I felt like I could make a difference here in this part of it. And so my, when I left the restaurant industry, I had my sister works at a large firm Gallagher, Arthur Gallagher out in St. Louis. And she said, I think you'd really liked the work we do and how, how much impact it can have. And so as I started to make my transition, it was always selling into businesses, or really being that resource for them. How can I help them? You know? So if I sold cameras into business, like a big brother kind of maintenance security, which is what I did for a little bit? It was really how do you use this to help strengthen your KPIs? How do you use this as a culture tour tour? And, and not a stick? How can you carry it or incentivize good behavior. So it taught me a lot of things on how to kind of shape your culture and behaviors and habits within the business. And so when I deal with the owner of a restaurant, or I deal with a small business owner, the conversations we have, I think, are far more helpful in the fact that, you know, I want to explain what the structure is, where the problems are, and then how do we attack it? How do we, how do we create solutions for it? And that solution is employee benefits, great if it's if it's a twist of giving them other HR resources that help kind of shape that culture before employee benefits come in. Because if your culture is awful, and you give out great benefits, that doesn't, it doesn't matter. It really has to the behavior of your company and community within your company. Have to be such that it's a stable environment.

Leighann Lovely 24:51

So absolutely. And you come from ownership, you know, you you own the companies So being able to come in as somebody who's been there done that creating that culture and walk in and have a very open, honest conversation with another business owner, you know, from the standpoint of, hey, I understand it's hard, I understand that this is a huge expense. But let's take a look, let's figure out what's, you know what the next step is for you. And really being the the consultant versus the salesperson is huge to anybody, when you take that approach versus the, hey, here's my products, what are you going to buy from me, instead of, you know, or, you know, coming in as the, alright, let's, let's talk about your your company as a whole. And you said that you take the holistic approach of, let's open up, you know, just have an open conversation about everything and figure out where, you know, where I can possibly assist you. And that's definitely beneficial. It's the building the relationship, it's the, you know, the human side of, of what I, the reason that people like you and I exist is to, is to have those human conversations make those human connections?

Ben Zang 26:17

Absolutely. I got off the phone earlier today with a company that was looking at benefits, right? So my job is to sell the benefits to broker those deals. Only this company wasn't in any shape, to do benefits. The woman who was the director of sales, it was a two main company right now. There'll be ramping up soon. But they're in the process of getting funding and all the private equity money coming in. And the owner was a disabled vet. So he had benefits through the VA and the director of sales had great benefits through her husband. So I'm like, it doesn't sound like you guys are ready yet. I'm happy to start to run those things. And I'm sure we could throw you on a plan. But why that doesn't quite make sense. And so there are things that I gave her a process to follow as they start to bring on those employers, because maybe a group plan isn't the right play for you as a business there, there's a tool that was called an Akron, a friend of mine whose insurance made a joke, and I now steal it and call it my own. But insurance people give out acronyms like Oprah gives out cars. So he, it's an acronym of individual choice, Health Reimbursement Arrangement. And basically what it says is, an employer says, you know, this is my budget, this is what I can give toward your health care, whatever that number is, and then you as an employee can work with somebody like me, and go out on the individual marketplace and grab your own insurance. And then I'll be able to reimburse you as a business owner, X amount of dollars towards that. And maybe that's the first step before getting on a group health plan. Right? You know, there are a variety of different ways there's, you know, medical sharing programs that are not actually insurance, that kind of help take care of your people. There's the gym membership of kind of all you can eat health care for direct primary care. There's a ton of different ways out there. And all you're looking at and some of those are commissionable products for me, and some aren't. But if you're looking to try and take care of people, I live and breathe in these communities. So if those businesses succeed, our communities are better. And so you know, it if you're just looking at bottom dollar costs and how to make how to make your your mark on things. I think how you make your mark on things is humanizing what we do, you know, it's people that we're taking care of, it's not just health plans, it's communities.

Leighann Lovely 29:19

My dad has told me a couple of times Leighann you can't and this is not related to sales because this is not the way that I am but I am I sometimes run my mouth when I get heated about certain topics I'm very quick to be like no I'm gonna you know I'm very much like you I don't like bullies in the room. I I'm very quick to defend people I'm very quick and I'm so I do you have a tendency to you know, my dad always tells me Leon stop being a bull in a china shop. And it is the salespeople who are the bulls in a china shop who are just absolutely positive If Lee, I'm going to go in there and and make a sale no matter what that are the people who are basically just a flash in the pan that they come, they get hired. They they last maybe a year or two years and quickly are found out for not caring about the people they serve. But when you are somebody who genuinely cares about the outcome and the people that you serve, you build a community, like you were saying, of people who ultimately will refer other business, I have said to some of the people who have called me and said, Hey, I would like to have you help me and you find somebody to hire at our company. And then we talk about numbers, we talk about this. And ultimately, I'll go, you know, I actually have recommendations on how you can do this yourself in a more affordable way. And they're like, well, we'll know I want you to do this. And I'm like, no, no, you can't afford my services. Right? Let me help you do this, this way, and, and walked away from that. That is the person who's sending me referrals to other businesses who can't afford my services, or sends me a great candidate. In one day, maybe as they, as the business grows, they come back to me and they're like, Hey, we can now afford your services. And you're the only company that we thought of because of that. But that's what it's about human humans as a resource and people, you know, doing the right thing. And creating those. And yeah, that's, that's awesome. So you, it sounds like it wasn't a difficult decision for you, when you decided to leave the restaurant industry. I mean,

Ben Zang 31:58

Incredibly difficult. Was it credibly? Oh, yeah. It was all I've ever known. I had run that business for 20 years, it was part of my identity. It was, it was every bit a part of me as the new life I was trying to build.

Leighann Lovely 32:15

Come on, you got a beautiful, I've never seen your wife, I'm going to make the assumption of this gorgeous woman who's like, I want to marry you have children. All you have to do is leave everything you've ever known. Okay, now I'm seeing how what was difficult.

Ben Zang 32:35

And let's be clear, she did not know. She did not push this on. But there does come a point in your life where you're at a crossroads. And I remember, I had some great mentors in the restaurant business. And one of them was a gentleman named Ray, who ran the original Margaritaville. And he was divorced. And he was telling me about the time that he was managing restaurants before he had managed Margaritaville. And he'd been married. And his wife said, we should open a restaurant together. And Ray said absolutely not. And she said, why. And he says, we'll be divorced in six months. While he was wrong, it was four months. They were divorced. Because it's it's not an easy thing. And my wife worked within my restaurant for a number of years. But the there were a number of different factors in housing markets. And all of that kind of came into play. And so when I left the restaurant business, and you had wanted to make a trade or transition into sales and preferably, probably find something like what I'm doing now, and no, it was incredibly difficult, because there's the whole learning curve. Yeah, I can. I can walk into a restaurant today and know what the kitchen is what's going on in the kitchen. What's going on in the front? In probably 30 seconds and be pretty accurate as far as that's the pulse of the place.

Leighann Lovely 34:17

Are there any restaurants that we should have? No, I'm kidding. Don't Don't answer that. Are there restaurants that you recommend?

Ben Zang 34:25

There are a ton of restaurants, great restaurants around here. There are there there just are and unfortunately I don't get out as much as I as I probably should. You and I have done a restaurant we'll probably going to do sushi later. So yeah, there's some great restaurants out there and so I can plug them but you know what I would say right now is the kind of those people in the restaurant industry because right now, the restaurant industry is growing And then the fact that for a long time, it's been able to dictate terms towards employees. And as they are coming to find out as every other employer out there, it's going to be a two way street for a little bit here. And it's probably going to be a bumpy road. And so yeah, so that's what I would say, on restaurants. But making that transition was incredibly difficult.

Leighann Lovely 35:25

And I want to mimic that. What you said is be kind to your servers be kind to the people in the service industry, they, every single one of them went through a horrific, obviously the world went through horrific event, but the people in the service industry and those who have gone back to it, we need them, we absolutely need them. And they need to, they need to feel special about that I've, I've made a point to every time I go somewhere to make sure that I tip generously because because I enjoy being able to eat in a restaurant. And I never realized how much I would miss it until I couldn't eat in a restaurant.

Ben Zang 36:08

So yeah, most of them are doing at shortstop now too, right? So yep, that's interesting.

Leighann Lovely 36:14

And it frustrates me when I hear somebody saying, Oh, my God, the service is so bad. And I'm thinking to myself, then that's the bully in the room. That's the bully, I want to stand up, I walk over to being like, Do you Do you have any idea how the men and women are hustling? or I shouldn't say men and women anymore? I should say, Do you have any idea how the people in this restaurant are hustling, and trying to make everything you know, your experience? Awesome, despite the fact that they are probably running on a, you know, a ship that's meant for an additional five people or an additional? Like, stop complaining, like stop being a snob?

Ben Zang 36:51

Like, that's, I mean, it's tough. And I think it's a really good mirror of what's going on in a lot of businesses today. And there are some businesses that I talked to, and they're having the exact opposite problem. Like, they're like, Oh, my God, we're growing so fast. You know, COVID was actually really good for our business. Sorry to say, because Because chain pattern shifted, right. And so there's got to be some businesses on the better end of that pattern, some that are on the worse. So yeah, so that's, I think, when you talk, one of the reasons I was so excited about your podcast is you talk about the humanizing the experience. And I think, as I got to transition out of one career, and then into another career of, of helping small businesses, one of the things I became very aware of, in my own struggles as an entrepreneur, and helping young entrepreneurs, or even well established is, there's always the education piece that nobody gave, there was like, there's no class that says, hey, this is how a health plan works, or, Hey, this is how you buy your first home, or, Hey, this is what a checkbook is, and how do you how do you run it, you know, or, Hey, if all of your vendors are in 30 day notice, but your, your customers don't pay you for 90 days, what do you do for those 60 days like that, there's just a ton of that kind of education that life has to kind of teach you and, and so, for me, I am always real appreciative of the days that I get to actually help people and, and make a difference in what they're doing.

Leighann Lovely 38:45

Right. And you, you are very much an advocate of, you know, employees, and, you know, creating and fostering healthy work environments, just through your, your past experience of being a business owner, and now, you know, trying to, you know, offer as much assistance in, in training for, you know, the benefits that you offer, and that's awesome. I actually, you were recently on a another podcast, where you talked about,

Ben Zang 39:20

oh, sure. Defining leaders. So I think one of the conversations I was in was, you know, we're hiring. We're bringing people up in our organizations that haven't necessarily had any management training. And, and what they, what they have is the ability to show up, right? And availability is sometimes the biggest ability that you can have in a business, but it doesn't mean you've necessarily been prepared for the role you've been thrust into. And so, I think called culturally and From a leader and owner perspective, you have to really bring those people up. And then you have to help them find a way to find the training, they need to be able to do the job as they do. And one of the things that I have very much enjoyed, and have a, it's been a gift in my life as the network of people that I deal with on a daily basis. You know, I'm always around financial advisors, I'm around CPAs, I'm around HR professionals, and they all make me smarter. And so there's that saying, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. Let's just say I'm never in the wrong room. So

Leighann Lovely 40:45

I love that saying, I love that thing. And absolutely. Well, not that you're not that you're in the wrong room. I'm just saying that that's the greatest thing. Because yeah, you always want to try to level yourself up, right? Learning from other people.

Ben Zang 41:00

Well, and that ability to when you bring somebody new up to the organization, they're, they're passionate, and they care about the very organization you're trying to build. But they may not they may not have been able to talk to an employee, they may not know what a deductible is, and suddenly, they're, they're in charge of a health plan. So it's, it's an interesting conversation when I get to work with those people, because then it's not just about the health plan. It's about, Hey, how can I help you in your organization? What resources can I get to you, I worked with a business that was looking to hire an executive to manage kind of as an operations manager. And the owner herself hadn't defined the role well enough that she was going to get out and get a bigger talent than was needed for the role she actually wanted to do. And so it wasn't that she needed that role filled, she needed to be able to find the roles she needed, filled in her company. And I was able to give her to a good friend of mine who helped her walk through job descriptions, how do you create these kinds of things? Because sometimes it's the basics that help you build a company that grows quickly. And a lot of times companies that are kind of hit with that growth cycle, where they have grown so fast, that instead of having a system underneath them, they have Betty or they have Judy, and one of the things you'll hear me say often is probably that he is not a system. Put your systems in the bus or lottery test, depending on which cup half full or half empty, you know that he's hit by a bus? What happens to your system, right Betty wins the lottery and decides she's going to be on a beach. What happens to your system,

Leighann Lovely 43:03

right? Yep. I was recently talking. I was recently talking with somebody who. And actually, she she was on my podcast, she came on and she was talking to me about Ron, she was asked to come in and help her dad run his business. And she said when she came in, everything was being run on, you know, a Rolodex and on a whiteboard. And she goes, what, what happens when the whiteboard gets wiped off or cleaned off? And I was like, Oh, my God, she goes, Yep, there we go all the records. How would somebody be running a business like that? But you're right. And, and to your point of, you know, what happens if Betty gets hit by a bus. And for some reason, I always go with the karma bus. But I am a half, I am a girl, either, it's got my glass half full. And if it's not at least half full, I'm refilling it. It's really bad when it's got alcohol in it, because by that time, I'm falling over anyways. I am a definitely a process person. And there are a lot of industries out there that struggle with that, because for so long it was hold your processes close to the chest, or they're going to fire you if you if you give them what your processes are, because then now you're gonna you're no longer gonna be as valuable. And that was very much the way that a lot of manufacturing, those are they're still old school in that sense, where some of the the baby boomers, they don't want anybody to know what their processes are. It's not so much in the office settings anymore, but that's still the way it is on the manufacturing floor with some of these guys who are running these CNC machines and some of the is no legacy machines. I think we're finally getting away from that being like the trend. But you're right, there are still some old school companies that are like, hey, no, we can just do it the way that it's always been done. And you're like, Whoa, whoa, wait a second, it's like you have to have, and that is also also a cultural thing. And if you are not actively working on your culture at a company, if you are not actively trying to create and foster that culture, a culture will start to create itself. And that's usually created by the squeakiest loudest person in the room. And often, that is the negative people who are complaining and pissing and moaning.

Ben Zang 45:59

Oh, and I think part of part of what I deal with, when I come in, I look at an organization is I look at, do they want to change? Like, you look at that whiteboard instance that you gave, what you have, and you're like, how does that happen? And I can tell you exactly how that's happened is you have a very talented, creative, driven person who starts a business. Like, they want to manufacture that widget, well then, or know anything about anything else, but manufacturing that widget. And so a whiteboard is all they needed to manufacture that widget. And then the government says, oh, you should pay taxes, and oh, you should have health care. And all you should do all of these and don't forget your form, you know, 999, or whatever it is, and you need it in triplicate. And then suddenly a business owner goes, I don't know what you just said to me, like, what all I want to do is make widgets, right. And then you have to kind of see, you know, I've met a couple different people where the son and daughter are like, you know, this is the way dad does it. And this is going to be the way it is until the end of time. And then you say great, then that's, that's, that's your culture, and that's okay to, you know, we're old school, we like to do it by hand, right? Fine, then embrace your old school illness, you know, remove the barriers to those celebrations of old school,

Leighann Lovely 47:38

right? And that's in, that's fine. But there's gonna come a point where you're going to have a young kid that you really want to hire, and he's going to walk in and go, I can't work here. I really, I want to work on a computer, I want to do the newest and coolest technology. So they also have to understand that they're going to have some other major challenges, like, eventually, when they don't want to do some of the accounting or filing all of the the taxes and paperwork and they want to hire somebody, they're going to have to find a 60 year old to do it. Because a young 25 year old is not going to come in and say Sure I'll do it this way. They're gonna come in and go, nope, I need QuickBooks or I need the whatever system I need this system I need, blah, blah, blah, and they're gonna go, No, we don't have any of that. And they're gonna go all them, I can't do it for you. So it's fine. You want if you want that to be your culture, just know that there is a possibility that your culture and your business could very well be obsolete in the next 10 years.

Ben Zang 48:45

Could I think of it like this, you know, there are restaurants that have three floors. And they have three or 300 seat restaurant. And then you have places like art and downtown, who's probably got maybe 20 seats. There's a different there's a different model in each. And I think if you look at art, and I don't think that gentleman is not successful, James Beard nominated shop. But he doesn't have the 300 seats that you have. There's a great book called The Subtle Art of not giving up. And I won't finish it, but there's it, it talks about the fact that and it says it in a little different terms. So I'll use my four year old voice. There's a poop sandwich and anything you do, you know, your job is to figure out if you can eat it, so to speak, money problems that whether you have it or you don't have it, it's you still got problems. And so any businesses like that So, you know, there's a saying of Be who you can afford to be. And if you're a legacy company, and you have a very niche product, and it doesn't matter, you're the only one they're going to pick it up from, you know, health care, Big. Big carrier insurance is not known for their customer and service. But you can't go anywhere without them. So it's that Be who you can afford to be. So, you know, I feel like I can afford to be, I have to be good. I have to be a good human. That's what I can afford to be. I'm rich enough to be a jerk to everybody. So nor do I live on my own private island. So, you know, I think being a good human is it's where we start. And where we end up.

Leighann Lovely 50:56

Right? No, and that, that absolutely makes sense. If you're going to be the little guy and you're starting out, you're going to have to be the the good. You're going to have to be good customer service, you're going to have to be absolutely if you're the Amazon of the world's Well, I don't remember a time when I I don't remember a week that I didn't order something from Amazon. It's just I mean, plain and simple.

Ben Zang 51:32

However, can that be lost? Can they lose? Absolutely. Absolutely. Things change. Don't think blockbuster ever thought they were going to lose.

Leighann Lovely 51:44

You're right. You're absolutely right. Blockbuster at the time was the only place to go to get your movies. That was the only place.

Ben Zang 51:56

I mean, and the gentleman that started Netflix started it because he had like a $70 late fee on a video.

Leighann Lovely 52:05

I did not know that. But yeah, I mean, the the entire story of blockbuster, they refuse to change with the times. And by the time they did, it was too late. Everybody was on Netflix, everybody. And I hung on to Blockbuster as long as I possibly could. And eventually I'm like, No, I'm gonna Netflix because they they even were bad. Even eventually became bad at that. It's okay, well, we are coming to time. And I have the question of the season. So if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Ben Zang 52:53

I would go back to when I was 20. And I would tell myself to practice adulting. Practices practice adults,

Leighann Lovely 53:04

I think, that's probably the best answer I've heard yet.

Ben Zang 53:09

Yeah. Because the things that we struggle with the big burning existence questions. You know, if you practice on adulting, you could simplify that pretty quick. Yeah. If you weren't letting the emergencies of life because you just didn't know get in the way. You could probably hug your kids more. Why flowers more? Yeah, yeah, things like that.

Leighann Lovely 53:41

I'd like flowers more. It's the amount of things that you don't know that you don't know. I mean, if I just sat down and started making a list of the amount of things from the time that I turned 18, and went to my pediatrician at 18. Hey, I would have been a good thing to know, before I made an appointment and then was embarrassed by my doctor saying, you're not supposed to be coming here anymore. Oh, where do we go? I mean, but if I sat down and really just was like, okay, the things that I that I didn't know that I had to learn in either an embarrassing way or that I had to call. Here's, here's a great story for you. Bree, I'll make it brief. Because this could be a long story. My My brother is very much like me, action oriented, action oriented. You know, something needs to get done. My brothers are actually more insane than me. They I don't know how they're older than me three years older than me and they have more energy than me. They're like little firecrackers. I remember my husband once told me that when he actually not too long ago. He was when I met your brothers. I thought they were insane. I'm like what they're so they're so even he'll he's like, even keel. He's like, Have you ever had a conversation with them? They stand in the middle of the room and rock. I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess I grew up with them. I'm like, I just, that's just normal. Like, they never really sit down and relax. Like, they're just those types of people. They're like, hyper active. always moving people. So anyways, my brother once called my dad and said, Hey, Dad, how do we make it out? My brother? was probably,I would say he's probably 25, maybe a little older toys that my dad called and said, Hey, Dad, how do I make pork chops? And my dad was sitting in front of, I think, one of his clients or something, my dad goes, Oh, yeah, pork chops. Oh, really easy. Put them in the toaster, drop them in there and just push the toaster button down. And when it pops up, they're done. And now, somebody on the other line is listening. Somebody who's sitting with my dad is, is listening to this. And he hangs up the phone. And my brother is just like, okay, obviously, my brother didn't do this. But he got the indication that Oh, Dad's, you know, in a meeting or whatever. But my dad's claim goes, you didn't really just tell your son to cook pork chops in a toaster ditch. But it's like the simple things of like, you get out you get out into the real world and the things that you don't know how to do. It's insane.

Ben Zang 56:44

It is

Leighann Lovely 56:45

it's an obviously that's part of growing up. But, and I could go on and on with the list of shit that my brother, like, Hey, brother, get your mail out of the mailbox, because there's actually important stuff that gets mailed to you. He used to just get it out of the mailbox and throw it directly into the garbage. Never even open it and he lost a check that way from the government that he actually then had to have them re issue, which was, you know, a huge thing. Anyways, he's he's a simplify guy. Like, I don't want to have to deal with this. He was a bachelor for a really long time anyways. So yes, I think so far this season, that is probably the best answer. Because if you were to ask a kid nowadays, what is a, you know how to write a check? They would say there are some kids out there. And when I say kids, I'm talking about 20 year olds, they would go What's the check?

Ben Zang 57:46

Well, here's, here's the other piece of advice I would give myself to is I would start investing while I was young. Yeah. Nobody ever tells you that this money thing. Your lack of an ability to manage it, beginning or ending is going to come back. And that the the throwaway years are really x experience throw away. They're not necessarily financial throwaway years.

Leighann Lovely 58:18

Yeah, I wish I would have definitely done that. Yeah. Well, hey, Ben, this has been an amazing conversation. You You've definitely had some awesome experience. Well, now, Ben, this is on your second career, you know, coming from a completely different industry and you know, now moving into where you're at, and I love hearing that story. And yeah, it's just been really fun. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Ben Zang 58:53

I appreciate you having me out. This has been a fun.

Leighann Lovely 58:59

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/benzang6/

E-mail - ben@thbwi.com

Website – www.thbwi.com

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, business, restaurant, benefits, called, company, conversation, absolutely, culture, doctor, business owner, restaurant industry, dad, healthcare system, growing, point, run, big, employee benefits, ben

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David Belman is an amazing business owner who had to find his own path despite being a second-generation business owner. David now runs an award-winning business that also allows him to give back to his community, one of David’s passions is Project Finally Home. He and his company are able to build homes for deserving veterans through the charity of others. On top of this, he is involved in many other personal projects and has created an amazing culture that people want to work in.

Leighann Lovely 00:18

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want. You may be struggling; our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

Welcome to this week's episode of Let's Talk HR. I get the honor of talking with an amazing individual this week, who's not only well liked in his community he gives back to his community and is just all around an amazing person. David Bellman is a second generation builder, developer and realtor and past president of the Metropolitan Builders Association in 2016, and past president of the Wisconsin Builders Association in 2017, as well as director of the National Association of Homebuilders. David is a Wisconsin trustee for the National Association of Pac fundraiser, David hosts a podcast called home building heroes, which has been downloaded 270,000 times. David has won numerous awards, including 2017, Walkinshaw, Freeman, citizens of the year Top Choice Award for best builders in Milwaukee six times in a row, and 2020 Emerging Leaders award for Waukesha County, and 2022, Wisconsin Builder of the Year. This is an amazing individual that I'm very excited to have a conversation with. Thank you, David, so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to talk with you.

David Belman 02:28

Thank you so much for having me on. Leighann, I'm honored that you chose me to have have you as a guest on the podcast here. So yeah, I love to talk some HR with you.

Leighann Lovely 02:36

Yeah. Excellent. So David, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself?

David Belman 02:41

Sure. So for those of you that don't know me, I am a home builder. That's how I started my career. And so I always tell the story of how I kind of got into the industry. And I literally grew up in the homebuilding industry. It was in the basement of our home. And so dinner table at night and everything, her heard the conversations about homebuilding and trades and contractors and all that kind of stuff. And so one day, I found myself nine years old, getting a little sassy with my dad. And I said, something I probably shouldn't have said, and I found myself on a job site with a broom and a shovel. And he dropped me off there and left me there. And he said, start at the top and work your way to the bottom. And I swept out the house and cleaned it. And he came back later and picked me up. And I don't think you can get away with that anymore nowadays, but No, probably not. But, you know, there was some valuable lessons learned that day, you know about the value of hard work and respect. And he gave me a check, which when you're like 1010 years old, or whatever, 910 years old, you get a check. It's pretty cool. You think you're really cool. So, but I learned I learned, you know, the value of hard work and what it took to kind of build these homes and the hard work that it takes and you know, like that track. And so I just got more and more involved and kept doing more, more work on the sites as I got older and more skilled and eventually took over the company and have do homebuilding land development real estate now.

Leighann Lovely 04:13

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I Yeah. Like you said, I don't think that you could do that nowadays.

David Belman 04:20

Yeah, the HR bells are going up right now. Like, yeah, you can't take a minor and drop. Oh, yeah.

Leighann Lovely 04:26

Ding ding ding especially, especially a job site. You know, those are the Yep. But definitely a valuable lesson. Wow. Growing up in a family business is definitely different. Different dynamic. Yeah. So you transitioned to basically run the business. What, how many years ago now is that?

David Belman 04:53

Well, it's it was definitely a process. So my father, you know, started the business in the 70s. It was land development. Real Estate and then we get into building in the 80s. And then around 99, I, my brother and I were in the business together. And my dad was like, Well, I want to start to phase down some things. And then, you know, in talking to we had a lot of conversations with attorneys and different things like, Well, why don't you guys set up your own corporation, we'll kind of phase down the line and build up the other one. Because there's a lot of assets and things involved with real estate and land development. So that just seemed to make sense. So he could wind out some properties, we could, you know, so we worked together for about 15 years, a little bit short of that. But what happened is, after partway kind of doing this, this partnership with my brother, it wasn't wasn't really equal, as far as we had equal ownership, but not equal workload or anything. And so, you know, he moved out to a lake and wasn't coming in all the time, and was doing other things. And, you know, I was kind of running the show, so to speak, and, you know, it was fine, I was like, this is for the greater good, just keep the company going the best way we can. But you know, after about, you know, 12 or 14 years of it, it was really wearing on me, and, you know, my father was, you know, more transitioned out by that point, he was going down to Arizona in the winter and stuff. And it became hard when my brother would come in and try and upend everything I had done. And I'm like, Well, I've been here all week, and now you just showed up, you know, so it created conflict, it did get a little bit difficult for a while and challenging. And I finally got to the point where I didn't even want to go into my own business anymore. No, no. And you know, when you own your own company, and you want to call it that's not good, right? That's not where you want to be mentally. And so it was hard on my team, and I could see it. And I kind of got to the point where I said, I can't put up with this any longer, I either have to buy him out, or I'm just gonna go off on my own, I can't deal with this anymore. And that's kind of how I had to, I had to have the difficult conversation with him. And I talked to my father about this too, because obviously, this was, you know, his business and is his vision to have us work together. And in he's like, I know what's going on. And he's like, I support you, I don't want to get in the middle of it, but I support you. So I was like, Okay, so, you know, I had that difficult conversation with them. And, you know, said, This is it, we got to do this, and it was difficult for a while. But I'll tell you what, after we got through it, I bought him out. It was like this, like black cloud lifted over the company. And it was just amazing. After that the the spirit of the company, the energy, the engagement, the results, I mean, it just all like started to happen, like, you know, for somebody that was watching from the outside, they're like, What the hell like, what happened, right. But it was something that was going on for a long time, because I was trying to improve the company and raise the bar and install a vision and, and, you know, a culture in there. And he was resisting it. So it was like, once we kind of got that piece out of it. You know, everything just kind of happened, the award started coming in, and all sorts of just stuff like that. If you didn't know what was really going on, you would have just been like, what happened there? Because that's just just look like we shot out of a cannon all of a sudden.

Leighann Lovely 08:13

Right. Very interesting. And this is a conversation, obviously, that's happening at so many companies, which is what if I'm sure that most of you grasp that, which is the the the underlying culture that's happening within companies? And it starts from the top right, it? Oh, absolutely, yeah, it's from the top, if the top is not actively seeking and actively taking control of the culture of an organization. The culture is going to be in turmoil trying to figure out

David Belman 08:48

There's culture and yeah, there's culture in every company, whether it's written down or practiced or not. So it's why take that chance, because if you don't have it written down, it's probably not going to favor your company. And that kind of favor you as the owner. So you want to have kind of a rules of the game. And I always kind of, say culture, much like a sales process is kind of like playing a board game with a three year old. If you've ever played a board game with a three year old

Leighann Lovely 09:14

Oh, yeah, I have a four year old. Yeah.

David Belman 09:17

So you know, it's like, it's great, right? You kind of talk about the rules for a minute, and then you start playing the game, and they're like, Okay, and then as soon as something bad happens, right, and they have to go back to start or something. It's like, they start trying to you know, change the rules media play, the rules, are they just want to walk away and quit the game, right? So you have to be really clear on setting the rules of the game, whether it's your culture, or your sales process, or whatever it is, and when you start to build those things in. And then the cool thing with the culture on top of you know, just having now clear rules, when you have a really good culture, then the team is actually enforcing the culture. So sometimes even you as the owner aren't always following the points of culture that you wrote down to a tee you know, and they're holding you accountable which then you You know, you have a really good culture. But it also makes it more apparent when you have a culture that you're committing to when someone doesn't fit the culture. And I experienced this as well. So we really went all in on that. And, you know, that's when a lot of that good stuff started to happen. But then I brought someone else in from outside the organization when I hired them. And within a week and a half, I knew like, this isn't really going, right, this person doesn't seem to fit in. And then I was having people from the company come to me and be like this, this person isn't cutting it. And, you know, I had when I had three people come up to me separately, and I'll say that I took the person in my office the next morning, first thing in the morning, and I let them go. And I just said, this is not, it's just not a fit, I'm sorry, you know, let's it's on me, I, you know, we made no mistake here. And I apologize. And you know, and then you can't just help separate people out like that, when you have a really good culture, you can see the really good people, they'll tend to even perform better. And some of the moderate people that you have in your company, they'll either step their game up to meet meet the standards. And then if there's someone that doesn't, they kind of stick out more. And a lot of times you don't even have to fire them at that point, they basically realize that this isn't a fit for them, and that they actually will a lot of times move on. And it saves you from firing somebody to

Leighann Lovely 11:20

Right, Absolutely. Yeah. And this, this happened a couple years, I'm assuming a couple of years ago that you and your brother parted ways. Yep. Yeah, was about 2014. Okay. So parted ways. And I'm sure that that had to, you know, first I didn't mean to skip over that that had to have been a very emotional rough time for you. Because while you are, you know, going through all that you're also at the same point, trying to save the company culture, save, you know, and rise the company up. Yeah,

David Belman 11:53

I mean, there's a couple of things that, yes, it was extremely difficult. And I always say, that was probably like, the most difficult thing I've ever had to deal with in my life. And, you know, it also kind of was coming to a head because like, in the building industry, you know, the 2010, like, 2008, took, like 2012 2013 was really a terrible housing market, and is putting a lot of stress on the organization, just from a financial perspective. And then, you know, when you have somebody that's, you know, taking a lot of you no money out of the company, a good salary, and, and, you know, he always wanted to pull money out, and it's like, okay, if I let this keep going, we're not going to have a company. And so I was kind of like, at the same time, I kind of had the I have to do this, or it's, I know where it's going to head, it's got to go one of two directions. So you know, it my dad had been in the business long time, I think he was wore out with it. And this especially going through a recession, like that just didn't want to deal with it. And so it was like, I have to step up and take the reins. And so it was also like another lesson in having one voice and one direction. Because it was kind of like, we had too many chiefs and not enough Indians. So kind of came in and said, Okay, I'm the voice. I'm the one steering the ship now. And this is what we're going to do. So we are all on the same page, everyone was super excited about what we're doing. And we put a, you know, a vision together, not just the culture, but the vision of creating the ultimate building experience for the customer at a time so that we really raise the bar. And, you know, at first I was like, gosh, are we ever going to do this, and we still, you know, have to improve on that every day. But when we raise the bar like that, it just, it really differentiated us. And it really made it a focus. Instead of, you know, most of my competitors trying to be the cheapest, or the you know, I have the best quality, which is super subjective. We're like, hey, we want to have a good experience, because this is a stressful time building a house. So it was really need to kind of go off on that direction. And it really, really helped us grow and set us apart.

Leighann Lovely 13:59

Awesome. So let me ask you now kind of going back to this, this cultural piece, when you started down that path. So now, you're you're in a position of okay, now I'm the I'm the owner of this business I now have it's my voice. It's my it's my vision. How did you even begin to I mean, did it? You know, I'd like to say, oh, it just magically falls into place. Right. But there's obviously it's very intentional. Yep. Yeah. So how did that what did that look like?

David Belman 14:29

So what I did is, you know, I just didn't want to have something on a piece of paper on the wall, right? You know, I mean, everybody can write up something, a mission or something. And, you know, maybe they slap it on the wall, and then they forget about it. And that's not what what I wanted to do, and I knew that that wouldn't work. So what what he did is well, first of all, we engaged everybody in the company, as far as when we built the vision, the mission, had some general ideas and you know, we had a meeting or two to kind of refine what it was going to be. We got people's input so we have a, I have it in three steps. We have the vision, which is the overall top of the mountain, this is the where you want to get to the pinnacle. And then you have the mission statement, which is kind of how you're going to get there. And then I had the points of culture. And these are the characteristics that we want our team to exhibit in order to get there. And so the points of culture are really important, because those are the little nuggets that, you know, hey, we're innovative, hey, we, you know, honesty is a key piece. You know, there's so many, like, I have 14 of them, actually. So I don't presume to remember them off the first cop. But those are the our points of culture. So what I did is, we wrote these all out and how they relate to Bellman homes. But then what we did is every single month, we had a meeting. And as part of our company meeting, we would spend about 15 minutes on on a point of culture. So we would say, let's take, you know, innovation. And I would have some educational material, whether it was a video or a discussion, creativity is one of them. So okay, we did an activity about creativity, I remember, we actually I gave everybody a certain amount of Legos, and we had the beachhead, to build something out of this random pack of Legos to show their creativity. So we just always added elements into our meeting. So not only do we have this big thing, blazoned on the board and on our website, and on our literature, but we actually started to actively learn and, and, you know, practice what we were talking about. And we we did that for several years, where we just went really hardcore into that we've lightened it up, because I have the same people now. And it's like, okay, they get it, and they don't have to beat it in their heads anymore. But as we add new people that kind of add those elements back in,

Leighann Lovely 16:37

well, that's amazing. And you know, use it's a key thing, you have the same people, which means that whatever you're doing means that you are creating retention.

David Belman 16:46

Yeah, yeah, we don't really have a lot of turnover anymore. And you know, like, long time ago, I mean, we've always had being a smaller company, it's been pretty good as far as retention. But, you know, I love my dad, he was great builder. He was not good at the people side of the employees part of the business, he would rather be on the job site, he didn't want to manage the office or deal with Office stuff. So I always kind of naturally fell into that. And, you know, there was a lot of times where he hired people. And it was like, Man, I can't believe we had that person for that long. And we put up with this for this long. And so I've been very intentional, like, we actually have a hiring process. And we have, I have pre made Interview Questions where I get certain pieces of information out, we're very deliberate about hiring, I don't hire somebody right away. And I know, that's probably a no no, in this market with things being so tight. But I would rather like take my time. And even if I lose out on somebody, I'd rather get the right person because for me, if if the Fit isn't right, if the the group isn't good together, it's not worth it. And so I hire very slow, I do fire quickly if I have to. But I'm a big believer in that. And even in a tighter market, I've still it might hurt me, but that's how I would do it. Because I'm looking at somebody that I want to be with my company, not only today, but 10 years from now.

Leighann Lovely 18:08

Right? Well, and like you kind of said, One bad hire can up and the cohesiveness of our team. And so

David Belman 18:18

You know, the whole bad apple spoils the bunch is is very, very true. And if you have a bad culture fit, and you don't deal with it, yeah, I mean, it can rip your your company apart, and it might cost you a really good employee. And so I've seen it in other organizations where that's happened. And, you know, I've made the mistake, I've not had perfect hires. And I remember just kind of an example for you for hiring, you know, I have real estate sales, right? So for a while, I was just okay, if a realtor came in, they had a license, they wanted to come work for me, they were hard to get. So I was just like, okay, you know, bring them in and give them a try. And I got really good at finding the realtor's and then bringing them in, and then I realized, like, okay, they need a lot of training, they don't really get new construction. So I built a training program. And then what I was finding is that my competitors would just kind of see my salespeople, and they would reach out to them and they'd be like, well, you know, you come work for me, I'll, you know, I'll give you you know, 1% more, whatever I have present more. And so I get them all up and running and getting productive. And then I had it stolen. So then I was like, Okay, this this stinks. So I had to I then rebuilt my my program again. And and changed and created my own comp program where I actually guaranteed part of a salary to them. And I was like, Okay, it's still my people. No, no, you gotta pay on the salary and all of a sudden, nobody stole my people anymore,

Leighann Lovely 19:38

right? You shifted with the market or you shifted with, you know, the situation in order to continue to rent retain, which I've never heard a real estate agent getting a salary.

David Belman 19:50

Yeah, did you have like a salary plus deal that we created and it worked out really well. So it was, you know, but basically, there was always a conversation with the salesperson when you put I'm on this program like, you know, you know, you're gonna get get a stable salary, it's kind of an off basically, is how I did it, it's like, it's enough that you can, you know, pay some bills and put gas in the car and get some food and all that. But, you know, if you're expecting to live off this, it's not, you know, they had to sell something, or a couple of things to really, you know, and then as he did this, the Commission went up. And so that worked out really well. And that allowed me to then really heavily invest in these people a lot more, but then there was always a conversation of, you know, first six months in or eight months in and you're not producing, you know, we're going to have that difficult conversation. So they kind of knew, like, yeah, I gotta, you know, I gotta bring some stuff across the finish line here on occasion, and it worked out good. And the other thing that it allowed me to do, which was really amazing, is that, because it is so hard to find agents and get people involved with something where you may, you know, when the market is good, the sales come in pretty well, when the markets bad, you could not make money for a long time. Right? Right. So it kind of allowed me to bring in people that didn't have a lot of experience, but that were good people or fit the culture of the company. And then I could take a little more time with them and train them, and also build that loyalty. So I had some connections with the Tech Tech school in the area. And a lot of design students were coming in, we were talking to him about home building. And most of those design students, were not going to find full time jobs in design, because there just isn't that many of those jobs in this market. So I said, you have to learn how to do something else like sales, you can still do design and do sales with this type of job. And so I was able to recruit some younger people and teach them. And that's worked out really, really well. Awesome. Awesome. So so when you run into a roadblock, I guess the moral of the story is like, there's there's always a different path or a different way, and you got to stop digging. You know, all I have to do is put an ad in the paper and then you know, interview somebody and hire them. It's like, there's definitely other ways to go.

Leighann Lovely 21:55

Right. Right. Great. So I want to shift a little bit, you know, so you, in your intro, we, you know, I talked a little bit about, you know, some of the amazing awards that you have won, and you had mentioned that, you know, as you took over the company, that's when you really, you know, you just kind of shot exploded? Yeah, you exploded. So let's talk, you know a little bit about that. I mean, what you've, you've won multiple awards, including the what the Walkinshaw Freeman, citizens of the year, the Top Choice Award for the best builders in Milwaukee six times in a row.

David Belman 22:38

Wow, we yeah, we were, yeah, we've been very fortunate, you know, part of this, you know, can you can attribute to culture of the company, because a lot of the words are company awards. But you know, as I was kind of going through that process of buying out the company, and things like that, I worked with a coach a little bit. And, you know, one of the things that really stuck with me on this was, if you want to grow the company, you gotta grow yourself, and you can only grow as much as you're willing to grow. So I started investing more in myself. And that's really where a lot of this came from, is I started, you know, you know, I went through college, I graduated college, I did pretty good grade wise and stuff like that. But, you know, when I was done with college, I'm like I've done with textbooks, I've dealt with reading and dealt with learning. And I did I kind of just shelved it for a while. And, you know, I started to kind of get back to, you know, I, I want to start learning more about this stuff. So I started reading about things like I'm not not as good of finances, as other people saw, I started reading books about finance. And I started reading books about hiring and culture and just other business books. And I developed that kind of hunger to learn and grow. And as I was doing that, you know, it was also seeing the company grow. And, you know, I made a point to every day spend 15 minutes learning and reading something, and investing in myself. So I think that was a big part of it as well. And then the other thing was the mindset shift. And I wrote a book about leadership. And so that's in my book about mindset is really key. So, you know, being grateful for everything that happens to you. And that day, even if it's not been a great day, there's always something to be grateful for. And then taking the time to focus on where do you want to go? What's your vision for yourself? And who do you want to be what's, you know, where do you want to get to? And so I started to develop this Yes, mindset. And I started getting more involved in a lot of different things. So I, I volunteered, I got chosen to be the president of the local Builders Association. And then I got the asked to be the state president, and I'm serving on the national committee now. And so I you know, those are things that I've done because one of my thoughts for myself was I want to be a leader in the housing industry. So if I want to be a leader in the housing industry, how do I do that? I have to have to be a leader, right. I have to choose to lead. And so yeah, I think that's a lot of that. then, you know, just kind of all comes together, right?

Leighann Lovely 25:02

Absolutely. And it was something you said that in order for you to grow your business, you have to grow yourself. And that's, in the people that I talked with that is a common thread that you have to be willing to continue to educate yourself and in emotional intelligence, really a great deal. But also in, in areas of study, you know, make yourself if you're weak in one area, you know, try to expand your knowledge. And if you need to hire somebody to, you know, be the expert in that area, you know, sure.

David Belman 25:32

Like, for example, I got C's in accounting in college, I know, I don't really like the subject, it's not that interesting to me. And I'm like, I know, I can hire somebody to go do that. And they'll do a lot better job than I do. So part of it is understanding where you're weak, and bringing in somebody that that has the skills that you don't have. But at the same time, I like, when I learned accounting in college, it was like, Well, this is a debit, this is a credit, I'm like, I know, I'm not going to do this work. So I'm not interested in it. But now as I'm older, I've read, you know, a lot of stuff about accounting, but I look at it from a different perspective, I want to say, what information on those balance sheets and income statements is on there that that I can use to now make more money or improve my business, or have better results. And so I it wasn't that accounting is bad, it's just that the information that I was presented wasn't the type of information that I needed, as a business owner. So sometimes it's learning, uh, you know, a better way to utilize that information, or get information that you find more valuable, right?

Leighann Lovely 26:37

Sometimes it's, it's learning what you don't know, in order to be dangerous with the information that you that you Yeah, yeah.

David Belman 26:46

And, the more knowledge you have, I mean, the more dangerous it can be right. And it just, you know, there's, there's that whole knowledge piece, and then there's the whole kind of the mindset piece, which is hard to quantify, but it's just the mindset and the Law of Attraction piece, which, which I do believe in, I don't, I don't push it hard, because a lot of people think I'm crazy, but, you know, you get what you put out and you get what you're thinking about all the time, right? What you focus on. So if you're focusing on positive outcomes you're focusing on in, you have an actual plan for yourself, or a vision of where you want to go, you're much more likely to get there, it's just like being on a boat in the middle of the ocean. You know, if you don't know where you're gonna go, you can paddle anywhere, but you may not end up anywhere. But now if you got that map, and you go, Okay, I know, I want to at least go this direction, and I got some food with me and I got an order and this and that, well, not now you might have a much better chance of succeeding. And so I think those kind of things, the education piece, and the working on yourself and having a direction, you want to have those, those are the things that can get you to where you need to go,

Leighann Lovely 27:50

Yep, and I'm a huge, huge believer in you, what you put out to the world will somehow come back to you, it may not be one of those immediate, it's, well, it won't be an immediate thing, but it put up positivity and positivity will eventually come back to you. And if you walk around, you know, with negativity just seeping out of you. Yeah, that's what you're gonna get back.

David Belman 28:12

Yeah, and huge believer in that, I've learned that and obviously going through that with with the buyout of the company. But you know, I started to surround myself with more positive people, more growth minded people. And then more opportunities came because I'm surrounding myself with more of the correct people that I need in my life. And I still yet to this day, there's, there's somebody that I get, you know, a bad vibe from, it's like, I almost have this natural instinct where I just, I will get out of that conversation almost immediately, like, yeah, it's just, there's just certain people that have a bad vibe, and you can almost get attuned to it, you can kind of pick it up. And so, but then when you have somebody that, you know, you connect with, or you have a similar thought process, you know, you tend to attract more of those type of people. So, you know, again, you want to attract more of the right people than the wrong people. So I believe the mindset thing is, is key. And we spend a lot of time on that, especially in sales, too. It's like, you want to attract the good customer, you want to attract the customer that's going to drive you nuts for for a year and probably cost you more sales, right? And we don't want to answer that is so well, and

Leighann Lovely 29:16

it's, it's interesting when you you said sales, so what one of the rules when I first somebody was like, okay, when you make cold calls, set a mirror in front of you, and make sure that when you're doing those, those calls, that you have a smile on your face, and you're like, that's crazy, you know, but it's 100% true, because when you're smiling Your voice sounds completely different. It is

David Belman 29:38

Oh, absolutely. So that's great advice. Yeah. And, you know, again, going back to the mindset piece to it, you know, it's just, you know, I've read some sales books where they, you know, they talk to this guy, and he would go into a sales meetings and they was doing well with the pitch. And then he said, I started sitting in my car for 10 minutes. I get there early, and I'd sit in the car for 10 minutes and I visualize and I predict or, you know, visualize the outcome and how this went. And then all sudden, he was, you know, closing a lot more deals. And it's, it's a lot of what's between the years and how you present yourself. And now you're right, smiling is huge. The other big thing is just understanding personalities. And I've been fascinated with that. So I spend a lot of time with disc, and I teach my sales, Team disc profiling and stuff like that. But when you can kind of match someone else's personality or their learning style, and understand what it is and present the information in a way, you're automatically miles ahead. And so that's a big part of it, as well. So it's, you know, not only how you present yourself and, and your, your state of mind, but it's also then, you know, connecting with that other person in a way that they appreciate, right?

Leighann Lovely 30:47

Yep. So, okay, I, we were gonna bring us back and rein us in, because, you know, I could go down this path, obviously, being a salesperson, you know, my day job, and you obviously, you know, being owner, but also salesperson, you know, we could talk about this forever. Anyways, so you, you are involved in a lot, the things that we have, we've talked about, but you've done some amazing things. One, you are involved with young guns, which I have. I have actually attended every single young gun. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, it's it's great. And that, you know, mindset and everything. Every time I go there, there's always great tidbits of information that I walk away with, it's always energetic. It's always just, you know, very energizing. But something that I really wanted to touch on is Operation Finally Home. Tell me about this. And, sure, where did this start? And how did you know that?

David Belman 31:42

You're gonna find some parallels with a lot of what I've talked about. But yeah, so operation find the home. First of all, what it is, is, it's a really awesome organization, it started down in Texas, and what they do is they find a very deserving wounded war hero, and they give him completely or her completely free of charge a free home. And what we do is, they, they basically, look for builders that want to, to help with this, and the builder tries to get as much material and labor donated as possible. And then, you know, do some events to raise money to cover the rest of the costs. And there's a lot of media, there's a lot of things we do to create awareness for this. And then operations, my home finds the really deserve a family. So most of these people are people that have wanted to serve their entire life, they've had a severe injury in, in battle, they, you know, obviously need the help. So these are people that are very selfless people they've given to the country, they're given to, you know, the rest of their lives for us. And I can't think of a better person to give a gift like this to than someone that's, you know, taking a bullet for us. So it's an easy sell sometimes to people. But when you meet the families, and and then you help them, it's just so amazing. And I, you know, kind of going back to when I was going through this stuff with the company, you know, and trying to find the right people and all that kind of stuff. I was at a trade show in Vegas of all places. And one of my vendors took me to this concert, it was a country music concert. I'm not a country music fan, to be honest with you. But I'm like I was in the mindset of I'm going to accept I'm willing to learn and grow. So I'm like, Okay, I'll go. And it was a benefit for Operation fly home. So I learned about it. The people were so positive, they're so amazing. The story I learned about a veteran that lost his legs in the war. He had six kids at home, and he didn't know what he was gonna do with the rest of his life. And then they give him this home and totally changed his life. So it was touching. And it was right at that time when I wanted to grab onto something. And I needed something positive while I was going through all this negativity. And so that's where I kind of got involved with it. And I committed to doing a home I was the first one here in Wisconsin to do it. It was such a great thing that now we've done six of them

Leighann Lovely 34:01

Wow, that is I cannot I get goosebumps, I cannot imagine the feeling that not that the veteran and the Veterans family have because one to to serve your country and to be injured is obviously an extremely traumatic event. And to have that, that, Oh my gosh, what am I going to do from here in order to support my family, my family, but then to be able to, you know, be given some hope of now I at least have a landing. I have a landing, you know, to be able to put my family in a good spot and a good.

David Belman 34:45

Yeah, I mean, when you think about it, you know, like, Okay, this is, let's say you're young and you're idealistic, and this is what I want to do for my whole life, right? And then all of a sudden, just in this snap of an instant, right? It's taken away. So that alone is traumatic. It's stressful. but then they have like a physical ailments attached to that on top of it. And it's not always physical. Sometimes it's a mental issue. You know, PTSD and traumatic brain injury are huge. And most of our families not only have the physical injury, but they have the mental injury. And so sometimes people see that people are giving a home too. And they go, Well, they look okay, well, they might look okay, they might walk around fine. But you know, they've seen things that you and I would never want to even imagine. And probably seen that daily or multiple times over their career. And so that affects them too. So there's all this stuff going on. And then, you know, the home just takes away so much of that worry for them, because now they know if something happens to them, at least, okay, we've got the home, we've got a place to live. You know, yesterday, Sony had to cover utilities and insurance and stuff like that. But that just takes so much burden away. Right? And, yeah, so we, we not only just, you know, give them this home, but we do a lot of cool things, so we can surprise them. And they don't even know they're getting the home. And a lot of times we'll we'll find them, they think they're gonna get an interview or something with me. And then also like, Oh, hey, we chose you for the home. And we surprise him, we catch that on video. So you get all this really cool, organic stuff that happens. And then we bring them out to the the groundbreaking we do a really cool ceremony, we get a big 50 foot flag hanging from a fire truck, we drive them under and the communities out there cheering for them. And I mean, it obviously creates good PR and awareness and the news media, but it also creates, you know, the excitement in the donations and everything else that keep this in, you know, moving along. And so I've been very blessed to do this. And I've learned, you know, I don't just build houses now. It's like, okay, I know how to put on events and do other things. It's kept me very busy. There's a lot to do with that I could, I could come into work at four in the morning and leave at midnight and have plenty to do every single day. Obviously can't sustain that. But yeah, there's it's always something to, and it provides a lot of energy to be able to, to do something for someone else, and you make a difference in someone's life. I can't help hundreds of people with this the way it's set up. But I can I can change someone's life forever. And that's so impactful.

Leighann Lovely 37:15

Well, and we, as people can't help everybody, but we can help one person. Everybody does that, you know, what an impact we can make. And the fact that you're, you know, your company, your business is able to do that. It's awesome. It's absolutely amazing. And and you're absolutely right. You know, obviously I have I have you know, bipolar disorder, I have, you know, I've struggled my life, my whole life with mental health issues. So the idea that somebody comes back with PTSD, I can't even begin to imagine even experiencing what I have experienced, what it would be like to experience PTSD from being in war be seeing what individual like the see, and then also have a physical ailment, you know, from being shot, losing your legs, I mean, those those sort of be Yeah,

David Belman 38:06

it's a lot to you know, and the hardest part for me, quite honestly, when I do this is that I get the final sort of sign off on the family. And so I get a stack of papers, these people are extremely vetted as far as we don't want to give a home to just anyone, we want to make sure that they're very deserving somebody that's going to do something really well with this gift afterwards. So I mean, I get a stack of papers that's an inch thick, and I'm reading I feel like I know their whole life story, right when I but you know, it's it's hard to read these sometimes, especially when they start to talk about the injury and what's happening with them and their family and their dynamic. And it you know, when I first heard about this, it really frustrated me because I was like I thought our government did a better job of taking care of these folks. And yes, they get, they get, you know, a retirement thing and things like that. But it's not enough, they can't live like this, and especially if they've got an ailment. So I was like, Man, this just it was like my sins where I'm like, it was just a wake up call that we have to do more for our veterans. And I was never a veteran my father was was in the military, but I have no military experience myself, but I felt guilty and I feel like I have to give back. And this is a great place for me to get back.

Leighann Lovely 39:15

Right. No, and I wish that our government could do better for a lot of these individuals and you're seeing more and more people popping up. You know, I've met quite a few people who are veteran, I served in the Army National Guard for short for your service. Thank you. I didn't do anything I broke my leg. You know, before I did anything for our country, so I don't advertise that but of course now I'm interested but anyways, that's okay. But the journey there's it is part of my journey, but there is there. I feel like we need to get better as a complete society on how To help these individuals trans transition back into society and give them more mental health, you know, assistance and give them to, you know more, it's the same thing. And I don't want to compare these two, but it's the same thing with somebody who's transitioning back into society coming out of incarceration, a lot of vegetables go right back into jail, because it's easier.

David Belman 40:22

Yeah, well, and you haven't fixed the core problem, right, you know, especially with with inmates, and, you know, we've done some work, because obviously, you're trying to get people in the trades, you're, you know, sometimes that's the pool that's there. And so, you know, they've actually created this cool program. It's called the homebuilders Institute, and they actually all set up a training facility and in a jail cell. And they'll, they'll teach them a practical skill, they'll teach him how to weld, or they'll teach him how to do carpentry or whatever. So at least, you know, not only they have something that they're productive at, and they're not just sitting there all day, thinking about what they did, but now they actually have a useful skill. And so now they're starting to attack the root problem. And, you know, this, you know, saying what the military is, like, you know, they have to kind of go through some, some mental things, you know, and, and, but then taking that big worry off their plate helps a lot. And I've seen these people completely changed from when I first met them, and know, you provide them the home. And then, you know, obviously, we have six families we've helped, and I know, at least folks, and we invite them back out to a lot of things that we have, and you see how they're doing. And, and in general, they're doing a lot better, you know, and they're, they're starting new careers, and they're growing their family, and they have time with their kids. And that's the whole other piece is like, when they're deployed, they miss their family, like they're not there. And they might have missed six months, a year, two years of really important time with their family.

Leighann Lovely 41:46

Right? Wow. Well, David, you, you obviously, I mean, your journey is definitely one of you know, amazing, it's amazing. You've you've gone from, you know, young age, being in a family business to, you know, changing the culture of your company to being involved in some very amazing things. You know, we're coming to time. So I have the question of the season that I would love to hear. So if you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

David Belman 42:24

Well, as far as when, I guess, I would say probably maybe early in my high school career, because I think that's a good time when you're still trying to figure out who you are. And as far as the advice would be two things, and I kind of touched on it already. But one would be, you know, the mindset piece, and that you get what you think about most of time, and really have a vision for who and what you want to be. And then to continually learn and invest in yourself and grow. So you're not done with your textbooks, when you're in school, you don't want to continue to learn, you want to continue to grow. And if you're growing yourself, you know, you're a living organism, just like a tree, a tree doesn't stay in one spot, the tree is always either it's going to grow or it's going to die. So be be like a tree that continues to grow and branch out. Otherwise, you know, you're going to cap out pretty early. So that's what I would tell myself because, you know, I was a good student in school, but I wasn't I had no confidence like I was the shyest kid ever. I like I thought of me even doing this as a kid, I probably would have been like, No way I wouldn't do this. And now I like I'll go out and talk on stage with a couple 100 people, and I have no problem doing it. Because I've built that confidence. I've built myself by doing these things, and then challenge you know, be willing to challenge yourself to, you know, and push yourself out of your comfort zone. That's that's another funny dad a third one, that would be my third one. So I'll stop there. Because no, I go on all day.

Leighann Lovely 43:48

That's great. That's great advice, because there are a lot of young, young adults, young kids are the older kids, young adults that still have not grown that confidence. And to, you know, here's somebody who's as successful as you give your, your younger self that advice. Don't be afraid to ask

David Belman 44:11

Yeah, some of the best stuff in life is, you know, it's not easy, right? And you have to do something harder, or be willing to take that more dangerous path or difficult path to get to the really good stuff. And so I think, you know, we have to, we have to be mindful of that sometimes. And, you know, kind of leave you with this. And I remember when I agreed to do the Operation Finally Home house, I was at a thing in the Dells. And it happened to be that day that they asked me to lead the state Builders Association. So within like a couple minute period, I had to make a decision to lead this organization, which was like a five year commitment. And then they happen to also be talking about Operation fly home and I was the only builder in the room that knew about it. And I volunteered at that meeting as well then to lead the first project in Wisconsin, and then I'm driving home in the car for two and a half hours sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, what did I do to myself? But, but it was like, I made those difficult decisions. But I knew I was the right person for this. And this was what I was meant to do. And it was gonna be hard, but it was gonna be worth it. And it very much was. So I guess that's just sort of the story to tie it all together, that you get to kind of push yourself and challenge yourself. And it's way more rewarding when you do that.

Leighann Lovely 45:25

Right? You didn't You didn't bite off more than you could chew you you actually took the entire sandwich and just shoved it.

David Belman 45:34

Well, I remember driving home to when I was like, how am I going to tell my dad this, he's gonna kill me. But you know, sometimes you have to also trust in yourself that it's going to all work out. And you don't always have the answer right? This second, right? Like, I didn't know how I was going to raise all this money. I didn't know how we're gonna get this whole build. I don't even know where we were going to build it. But I knew that somehow it would work out.

Leighann Lovely 45:55

Right? Sometimes, you know, taking a leap of faith is is okay. Yes, yep. Right. So, if somebody wants to reach out to you wants to get involved in anything, you know, young guns or Operation Finally Home? Or how would they go about doing that? And know that it'll also be in the show notes. So you don't have to go through the entire thing. But, you know, please,

David Belman 46:19

Yeah, the easiest way, I mean, there's a couple of ways. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. So just look up David Bellman on LinkedIn, and connect with me there, send me a message, I'm glad to start there. Otherwise, if you want to email me, it's my name. So David, at Belman homes, it's B E, L, M, A, N homes.com, you can email me there, you know, and then from there, you know, I'm usually better with emails. So that's the best way to go. And then, you know, we can certainly have a phone conversation or whatever. But now I have a lot of people that I connect with, and they help out with, you know, volunteering with Operation fly home or things like that. So, you know, we can have a conversation and you know, that kind of thing, if that's something you're interested in, or you just want to learn about the home building process, or you want some inspiration, you want to grow and learn, come to young guns, events, they're really great. And the best part about it, not just as the education with the people that you meet there, and the connections that you make over time, because there's a lot of great people there. And they're all in the same mindset. And so, you're gonna you're gonna make some, you know, great connections, just networking with people there too.

Leighann Lovely 47:21

Perfect. Well, David, again, thank you so much for you know, talking with me today. It's been Yeah, it's been a very great conversation and I've really enjoyed it.

David Belman 47:29

It's my pleasure. Leighann thank you so much and invest lucky Tia.

Leighann Lovely 47:34

Linkedin – https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidbelman/

Website - https://belmanhomes.com/

E-mail - david@belmanhomes.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, home, culture, company, conversation, talk, piece, hire, day, business, mindset, david, family, grow, vision, deal, learn, builder, bellman, created

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Janelle Benjamin is an amazing woman with an even more amazing story of how she came to run her own business. While her story is amazing it is not necessarily a fair or happy one, but one that we should all learn from. There is something to be said about the hard moments in life that set us on the paths that we are meant to be on. Janelle has defiantly found not only her path but becomes someone that this world needs more of. As a DEI expert, advocate and trained lawyer Janelle has a true understanding of people and the compassion and empathy we all need.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

If you are an HR professional business owner, or at the operations level trying to understand what people want, you may be struggling. Our systems have been shocked. practices have been question and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely

Leighann Lovely 01:02

Janelle Benjamin is the founder and Chief Equity Officer of All Things Equitable Inc., using her lived and professional experience to help companies affect systematic change. A trained lawyer Janelle is no stranger to the Diversity, Equity and Inclusion space, having investigated complaints at the Ontario Human Rights Commission advised professional regulators on fair registration practices for highly skilled newcomers led corporate DEI initiatives and implemented groundbreaking legislation programs like the Accessibility for Ontarians with disability acts 2005. I'm so excited to talk with Janelle she's an amazingly talented, brilliant, and wonderful woman, and I'm just thrilled to have her on the podcast today. Janelle, thank you so much for being here. I'm very excited about having this conversation with you.

Janelle Benjamin 02:04

Thank you so much for having me, Leighann. It's a pleasure to be with you on your podcast.

Leighann Lovely 02:08

So why don't why don't we jump right in? Tell me a little bit about yourself.

Janelle Benjamin 02:13

Thank you for asking. I am a Diversity Equity and Inclusion practitioner from Toronto, Canada, a management consultant. So I support organizations and their leadership to create equitable, inclusive workplaces, right. So they've got issues of diversity, how to diversify their workplace, how to create experiences of inclusion, belonging, make people feel welcome in the workplace, or just achieve equitable solutions, right? Whether that's pay equity, or gender equity, racial equity, you name it, I support them with a variety of training and consulting work.

Leighann Lovely 02:53

That's, that's awesome. And so needed right now. In in the world. So you are actually the founder and CEO of all things equitable management consulting firm. So how did you come to, I guess, become the founder of this organization? You know, what launched you into doing that?

Janelle Benjamin 03:16

Yeah, there was a few things, it was a combination of factors. I was laid off in a pandemic, you know, starting to compete for jobs with the rest of the world, found a fantastic job that I thought was great, closer to home, and $40,000, less salary. But I still took it because I thought, okay, you know, here's the job, it's closer to home higher level than the position that had just previously laid me off. I was really, really excited to begin, it was in a field that I totally love working for, you know, another issue of inclusion and a really, really important entity, eight minutes down the road from my home that I'd been previously commuting about an hour and a half for, you know, four years to another organization. So I thought, okay, eight minutes down the road, $40,000 less, but you know, work life balance, I'll be closer to home closer to my kids. And still, you know, at a director level, right, I had just been a manager before, but at least I can be doing something meaningful to support a community that I truly love and hold dear. And then the opportunity was rescinded. Just on the eve of the pandemic. It was heart wrenching. But what was more heart wrenching was that they didn't. They didn't say, Well, you know, we'll revisit your application at the point where we can reopen the the world. Instead, they blamed it on me. They said that, you know, it was because I was negotiating for myself that, you know, the opportunity was being rescinded. I was asking for too much as a woman. You know, I was being greedy to say, well, you know, your range is like $40,000 below my last salary, is it possible that I could start at the top of your range and not the very bottom. And the fact that and then range was minuscule, the fact that I had suggested that it's just over the top and too much for them, right? It shouldn't be negotiating for myself. So that started me back, you know, now looking for work with the rest of the world. And feeling just heartbroken. You can't even imagine starting to look for jobs, again, putting my application out there. And then, you know, George Floyd is murdered, still, you know, not thinking about entrepreneurship. But the very next day when Amy Cooper, the white woman who was you know, walking her dog in the park, and she decided that she was going to call the police on Christian Cooper with a black man who was just birdwatching that lit a fire under me like the combination of being unemployed in a pandemic, George Floyd job offer rescinded and then Amy Cooper, you know, questioning, his belonging in the workplace just totally triggered me. Right. It was taking me back to the you know, the places that had terminated me previously, noting you know, I don't belong there, I don't have what it takes to be in their spaces. And I just thought, okay, here we go again, right, here we go again, with another person telling a black man where he belongs. And I just I was, I was like, Okay, that's it. I'm never I don't want to work for anybody. Again, I'm going to, you know, do my own thing. I've got what it takes, no one's going to tell me where I belong, no one's going to tell me what I'm qualified to do. And I'm just going to work to make the system better, right. Like, we thought George Floyd sparked this sort of global movement, impetus to not just improve police justice, in policing, but just equity in all of our systems, our health systems, our child welfare system, our workplace education, employment systems, right. So we're working on anti black racism and addressing it everywhere. And, and I knew that the experiences that I've had were, you know, sometimes related to me, because I'm a woman, right? Sometimes related to both the intersection of my woman womanhood and my blackness, or the fact that I'm a black woman. And being told, you know, we no longer need you're here, or, you know, thanks, but you shouldn't be asking for more. All of those things were just so dreadfully painful. And I had what it takes, I don't you know, I'm a trained lawyer. I'd worked in, you know, different provincial government agencies here in Canada for a very long time. supporting organizations with their inclusion initiatives, right, I have the skills I've got the stakeholder relationships, the policy development, program development, legal training, investigation of human rights complaints under my belt, so I just thought, Well, what the heck Well, I can have other people can vote, why can't die. So that's sort of the painful journey to the launch of all things equitable.

Leighann Lovely 07:50

I listening to you, I get goosebumps, you know, we are we are a makeup of the experiences that we've had in our life, right. And while my experiences as one a woman, but also very much a white woman, obviously are very different. And I am very much and, and I say this, somewhat ashamed, but very much blind to the experiences of the black community, I don't have any knowledge, any understanding of what you've experienced. But again, because I am, you know, a product of my own experiences, to the same effect, nobody could understand what it's like to have a mental health disorder growing up, and being discriminated, you know, for that. But this is definitely everything that you just explained, everything that you went through, you know, on an emotional side on a logical side on, all of that is so valid, and things that we need to as a society address, have empathy for have, you know, conversations around and about, because we can only understand the things that we've experienced, but we have to understand that we now have to try to put ourselves in the shoes of others to try to look through the glass, you know, with the eyes of others, in order to be more open and more understanding that yeah, we're not doing we're not doing everything that we can do in order to create a, you know, inclusion and diversity and all things equitable society, right. Yeah,

Janelle Benjamin 09:37

Absolutely, empathy is such a huge part of this inclusion conversation, right. A lot of people don't have the ability to empathize with other people. It's sort of like, you know, just move along. Let's forget about it. You know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, everything will be well just work as hard as the rest of us and you're not going to have any of these issues. And the reality is that meritocracy, you know that myth is a myth, right? That, you know, society and things that are happening around us just don't impact people differently. Right? The reason that this push for equity is so significant right now is precisely because, you know, there's disparities in our society, right? And there's a power imbalance and a differential that certain groups experience based on their racial identity, right? And if you're, if you are not white, you experience it. And if you are white, you may not right, it's, it's a blind spot that you may have precisely because of, you know, your, your privileged identity, to not have to be experiencing racism, right? So it's hard sometimes for white people to understand what we're talking about when we're saying, this is racism, you know, you're that that horrible, you're playing the race card always comes out or, you know, you say black lives matter and you're fighting for your rights. And then they're, you know, they're gaslighting you and they're saying all lives matter, and you're like, Oh, God, it's so cringy. You know, we're focusing on black lives. And we're talking about the reasons why Black Lives Matter precisely because ours are under attack. Right, we saw what happened recently with the shooting in Buffalo. You know, we saw what happened with George Floyd and ahmaud, arbery, and Breanna Taylor. And, you know, I could go on to, and name so many more, I will do Dr. Lu and Mike Brown. And, you know, the names just don't stop. And for people to sort of, to say, well, let's just negate all of that, forget all of that. Forget that, you know, the police are disproportionately killing, you forget that they're disproportionately arresting, you forget that they're, you know, disproportionate, you know, that more of your men, more black men are in prison, right then are employed in the United States. And at home with their families. That is a very troubling statistic. And we're talking, you know, I'm in Canada. But I use the data coming out of the states precisely because we don't collect race based out here in Canada. Very bizarre. But bizarre, but not right. Like, it makes sense. In a system where people, people are uncomfortable. When you call things out, they rather kind of hide it under the rug, and all those problems are happening in the States. And not here, right? Because your your data looks so, so pristine, and you don't actually have any information that you're collecting. But it's important that we start to gather the information to tell us what we need to do to make those systemic improvements here. And thankfully, organizations are getting on side, you know, the ones that are working with me are really working hard to change things to do better, to be better to be, you know, supportive allies, which is exactly what we need, right? We need people with the power and privilege in our, in our society, to start to spread the wealth a little bit, right. That's what equity is all about. Achieving it for other groups means that, you know, we can't, we can't continue to operate in a system that tells us that whiteness is supreme as if it's not really having impacts on us. All right, it is. It's causing so much harm and disparity in our society in so many different ways in treatment and, and in outcomes, how people are actually faring in our society is a direct correlation to the racial identity. So yeah, it's important to talk about it.

Leighann Lovely 09:37

Absolutely. And here's what I don't understand. And this actually, before I go on that thought, I want to go back. Because I want to, I want to make sure that I address something that you you started off with saying, first, when you we the offer was rescinded. You said that they're gonna turn around and blamed you. I'm disgusted, and I'm absolutely 100% disgusted by that. Because of the fact that I am my day job is in staffing, I help individuals help you negotiate for what they deserve, what they are worth what they and for anybody listening out there, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going and negotiating on your behalf for what you are worth. And if a company is not willing to come to the table, you know, to negotiate with you, you don't want to work with that company, if they're going to turn around and blame you for, you know, trying to, you know, put a value on what you're able to value or what you're able to bring to them that and for them to turn around and blame you that is is asinine.

Janelle Benjamin 14:49

But what was more inhumane about it was the realization that the very next day after they sent me that communication rescinding the offer, blaming me, the very next day A, they closed their doors down for months, the very next day there was, you know, our entire province went on a lockdown, they must have received notice about it as a, you know, an entity that needed to shut its doors. And instead of saying so sorry, Janelle, the provinces requiring us, you know, because of course, my my start date was from March 31, which was beyond the provincial lockdown, instead of saying, you know, we presented an offer that was requiring you to start on March 31. But we're no longer gonna be open because of this provincial lockdown due to COVID-19. We'll revisit this at a point where we're able to reopen, we're so sorry, I would have not been as devastated. Right, but they were so inhumane, as you know, and the reason I was negotiating was I revealed that I had children. I said, you know, I talked to them about the benefits package and waiving the waiting period in order for the benefits to start. I said, you know, I'm currently receiving benefits from my previous employer that had laid me off, I need those benefits for my family, is there any way that we can waive that probationary period and have the benefits start? My direct supervisor that was going to be reporting to senior director, she said, Sure, we'll, I'll take a look at it, I'll take a look at the numbers, we'll see if we can get you to the top of that range, or move you up slightly, at least. So you're not at the bottom. And we'll I'll get back to you on the version of the benefits. And instead, by the time she'd gone to the men that you know, the CEO and the HR leader, who was also a man comes back down that, you know, she's you know, she's asking for too much, right? Like, I'm asking to not start at the bottom of the range of asking for benefits for my kids. And the office, we're sending it and you know, so sad too bad. You're, you're being a little bit greedy here. And instead of telling me that you're closing your doors because of the pandemic, you've blamed me, that was the most disgusting thing, I think, for me, showed you know, and I lambasted them I sent them an email. And I've never done this to any organization ever. I lambasted them I said, you know, how dare you I had round after round of interviews, about four of them met the staff walked around the building, showed me my office, I went and I went shopping, I bought clothes, I did all these grand things that you do you know toasts with your family, when it's like, finally, you got a job, because I was unemployed for almost two years. So I did all those things. And then I wrote them an email, because I was like, How dare you like you, chastise me in round after round of interview? But how inclusive? Are you? And, you know, do you have the right inclusion mindset? And I thought, well, you know, here I am telling you that I've got kids that I'm a woman, I'm negotiating, I'm I'm racialized, and you're questioning my inclusion mindset. And this is your, your, the way that you operate. Right? You're blaming me, I just I let them have it. I couldn't stand it.

Leighann Lovely 17:49

Right, No, and that's right, no, and I coach, you know, employees all the time. And I say, you're, you're never gonna get anything that you don't ask for. Now, there's also there's also the understanding of when negotiations are over, you know, you need to you need to know when they have ended, right? Because I've also had employees who are continuing to push and push and push and push and push, and it's like, okay, negotiations, right, it's, you know, you need to know when you when, you know, when to get up and walk away from the table at this point. But there is, you need to be your greatest advocate, nobody else is going to be that. Sure. So I am sorry, that that happened to you and that they, obviously, the position went away. But the way that they handled that was was horrible. Nobody should be treated that way. And it's no wonder that, you know, I shouldn't say it's no wonder, but I am so glad that you have now started on the path that you have started on. Because yeah, it's necessary in this world. It is 100% necessary. And we need people like you.

Janelle Benjamin 19:06

Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm, I thought, you know, I fought and I advocated in my professional life as a lawyer for so many different people and individuals and groups and things. It's like, why would I not advocate for myself? as well? Why would I not do this professionally? And, you know, see what I can do and affect the changes that I know that I can affect? Independently, right? Instead of waiting for a job, I'm just going to create my own and it's it's definitely worked out. There's lots and lots of clients that I know work with, and I'm quite happy doing this work independently.

Leighann Lovely 19:45

Yeah. Okay, so now jumping back forward, where were we? You are also a speaker and part of black speaker collection. Tell me what this is. And you elaborate on that for me. So I have an understanding of what you know what that's all about.

Janelle Benjamin 20:03

Sure. So through my work with all things equitable, you know, I do consulting, I do training. And oftentimes people invite me to do speaking and keynotes and things like that. And so the Black Speakers collection was a collection that began by a woman by the name of Madison Butler. I believe she's based in the United States, maybe in LA somewhere, she decided, based on lots and lots of, you know, anecdotal information that employers are sharing that, you know, they can't find speakers for predominantly Black History Month events. And not only that Black Speakers are being underpaid, undervalued. You know, we're offering keynotes, we should be being paid the same as our white counterparts. And so she formed the Black Speakers collection to sort of aggregate the number of black speakers around the globe on a variety of issues that we can all speak on. So it's sort of like a one stop shop for employers who are looking for a speaker to come and speak on a particular topic at their events, whether it's, you know, technology or finance, or, you know, anti racism and equity, like I speak on, there's a whole vast collection of people that are highlighted through through the Black Speakers collection, that are really easy to find. It's a searchable database, it allows employers to go and see the the wealth of a range of talent that are out there, and then, you know, present proposals and things to them so that they can come and speak. And it's really compelling us and pushing us as black speakers to, to know what we're worth, to charge what we're worth, and to not undervalue ourselves. So it's sort of win win, right. It's a one stop shop for the employer. But it's also a great place for us to collaborate. There's a Slack channel that we all can talk about our, you know, our engaged, it's just this great collection that allows everybody to hold themselves out as the speakers they are on the topics that are within their own domains and their expertise. And at the same time, allows employers to search and find them to to make those connections so that, you know, you're not having an organization say, Oh, I can't find any, any black speakers. Where are the black speakers? It's like, there's little, there's over, over 2000 of us already in the database within within days of it opening and launching,

Leighann Lovely 22:31

Oh, wow. So I will throw, if you have a link that I can throw in the show notes. So if anybody wants wants to check that out, they can definitely check the show notes. And yeah, check out the database and information on that. So perfect. That is that's awesome. And I did not know that. Again, this is the naiveness of a lot of people out there. But I did not know that there was a struggle for people to find, you know, black speakers. But I guess, you know, when I walk into an event, I'm not, I guess I just I don't notice whether or not the speaker is black or white. I just, you know, walk in and listen to that.

Janelle Benjamin 23:19

Right. But that's the thing when so many people, right. So I should say this properly. So many white people don't notice when they are in the majority, which is all of the frickin time excuse my language, right? Yeah. You're always in the majority, right? But when you're racialized, you notice right away when you walk into a space, and you're the only one there. So and how many times has that happened to me, right? Everywhere I go. I'm always alone, right? To go to university. I'm in a, you know, largely white institution. And in 98% of my classes. I'm the only black woman or the only racialized person if there's other racialized people, they may be brown, they may be, you know, Chinese looking Indian, what have you, but I'm usually the only black one. And sometimes there's there's no other racialized person. And it's really interesting, right that with respect to speakers how this comes up is that you know, you've got panels, right, have always learned people that at this point in time, right, well, we're talking about diversity, inclusion, equity, accessibility for everyone. You go to so many events or conferences and things in every single panel member this usually the men or their, their white men or their white women and black women and, you know, Asian women or our Latino women are largely absent. And that's not because we're not we don't exist, we're not qualified. We're not you know, educated to speak on particular topics. And I think that's what the collection is about. It's getting out At, we can speak on a variety of a broad range of topics. Look how many of us there are globally, you don't have an access problem, right? The website starts by saying at Black Speakers collection.com. It's a community dedicated to closing the wealth gap, solving the pipeline problem and ensuring that we're no longer an afterthought, right? If you want to diversify your panel, right and truly have representation, well, here we are, right comm and make sure that you're, you're doing the right things proactively, to make sure that we're not absent from places where we absolutely shouldn't, could be right? If you want to balance the wealth in society and really create equity than you need to think about it everywhere.

Leighann Lovely 25:40

Yes. And it's you made a really valid point, if I walk into a room and I am the only white person, and it happens rare, very rarely, you know, I live it very rarely. Yeah, but I noticed immediately, and I go oh, okay. Obviously, it's because it happens so rarely for me that I immediately go. Okay, I'm gonna be recognized or noticed immediately I'm I'm right. I am a blonde, really pasty white, blue eyed woman. People are going to know about I assume people are going to notice me because I'm going to stick out. Yeah, the night. Here's another thing that I notice advertisements have have completely changed, you no longer see advertisements with just white people on them. They've, society has finally finally gotten smart. And now they have interracial families. If you have a picture of a family, they now are showing interracial families, they are now showing a variety of races on advertising when they have people on it. Finally, and this just I just started noticing this what over like the last two years. But prior to that, all advertisements where they actually had people on the advertising, it was always white people. It was never it was never interracial. Or rate, you know, it was never representing any other race than than white for the longest time. Yeah, you also see that now in more television shows that are coming up. Where you're seeing interracial couples, you're seeing more diversity in the people who are being cast in TV shows. So it's actually representing more variety of the different races that are there. But first, name one show when you were growing up that had any interracial or that was any interracial couples or friends.

Janelle Benjamin 27:59

Right? Honestly, that was almost impossible. You might, you know, the most interracial shows that I can think of are like the Jeffersons, you know, Georgia and Weezy had like the the white, or sorry, the black woman upstairs, Florence. I think her husband was white. In real life. That was true. That was that's Lenny Kravitz his mother. So you know, it's a true true life story, because Lenny Kravitz is biracial. And I also think about not good times. Sorry. It was the Jeffersons and something else Oh, different strokes, different strokes was, you know, Arnold and his brother Willis, two black children who were adopted by the by Mr. Drummond. He was the rich, wealthy white man. Right. And it was, you know, that kind of comedy, what you're talking about Willis. And he had Kimberly, his daughter, and they will, you know, the there was a rich, wealthy white family adopting the poor, impoverished black children and saving them from the ghetto. You know, other than that, right?

Leighann Lovely 29:02

There wasn't anything. And again, what is that saying? The rich white man saving the poor black boys.

Janelle Benjamin 29:12

Right. And even Jordan Weezy was like, you know, we're moving on up, we, you know, we're, we're rich now because they were drycleaners you know, he had a business and was able to move into this penthouse in the sky, this, you know, elite building apartment building where this black woman was married to a white affluent man, and could afford to live there. Right. So, again, reinforcing some problematic tropes and stereotypes and things about who we are and what we have access to. But it was it was funny, you know,

Leighann Lovely 29:41

Right. And again, I'm not I'm not slamming the, but this, as you know, as a society, we have things have drastically it's changed and we need to now have, you know, for my child for, you know, the children that are being raised, you know, I love my dog. otter right now is it a is a perfect age, she literally is at that age where when she looks at people, she sees no difference. She literally sees no difference she sees. You know, this is the conversation I sometimes have with her. She'll be on a playground. And there was a I'm not exactly sure what their true nationality was. But they did not speak English. This little girl didn't speak English. I could hear her talking to her parents, and she was speaking in another, another language. And she came over to me, she says, Mommy, I'm trying to talk to that little girl. She doesn't talk, right? I said, Well, she speaks another language. She goes, What's that? And um, it's, it's a different dialect. I don't know how to explain this to a four year old. Right? Okay. And I suppose you can still play with her. She goes, Okay, so they just, you know, stare at each other and run around and play. The Innocence of that is it's so pristine, you don't they don't learn that there is a difference or that you know, that there is any difference in them until they go to school. And then children start to, you know, talk, or there's that one instance where a child says something that they heard their parents say, and all of a sudden they come home and they make a comment, you go, Oh, my God, where did you hear that? Like, that's not okay to say. And then you have to start going through that there are different races out there that, you know, yes, children, sometimes they look different. They have different color skins, because, you know, we that's just the way that it is. And then all of a sudden that becomes that learned, you know, thing. But we're not born with the indication that there was anything different between any of us because under that skin under that we're not? There is no difference.

Janelle Benjamin 32:05

Yeah, I would say. But agree with a lot of that, of course, we're not born with a recognition that we're different or expectation that we're different. But studies do indicate that even babies, you're they start to see color, I think as early as three to four weeks. Yeah. And my daughter and most kids, I shouldn't just I want to talk about my own kids. But I'll start with my daughter, my daughter, she just turned four this year. And she already knows that she's Brown. She says she you know, she identifies that her dolls are different colors. And she and I make it a point to introduce her to a variety of dolls of all races and mixing colors and ethnicities and things. But when I see her gravitating toward adult more than doesn't look like her, it lets me know already that the world is already conditioning her to believe less of herself. So I, you know, I tell start to tell her how beautiful look at the black doll. And she's pretty just like you and you know, you start to do those types of things. Studies have shown I don't know if you've seen any, maybe you can put this in your show notes as well, the doll test. The doll test is a famous test that's been done, I think from the 30s or Ford 1940s. Repeatedly in different contexts. It's been done in Italy, it's been done in United States, it's been done in Germany. And what it does is it introduces a series of dolls, black and white dolls, to groups of four year old children in a variety of countries and you no matter what language they're speaking, when the child is introduced to the black dollar, the white doll, the you know, the questioner always asked the same set of questions. Which doll is pretty to the white child or whatever the the race of the child is black children or white children are exposed to the same test. They always invariably say the white dollars pretty which title is is is ugly, they'll end to justify the black doll. Which doll is smart, the smart doll, the intelligent doll, the you know, Which doll is the good doll, Which doll is the bad doll and study after study and time after time they've done this in the 40s. They've done this in the 60s I think they did in the 2000s. And it's on YouTube. You can put this in the show notes that it shows you repeatedly how children are constantly identifying the white doll as good as beautiful as better than the black doll and the black doll is bad and naughty and angry and all that lets us know that. From a very early age. We think that our children don't understand racial difference, but they absolutely do. So we do need to talk to them about it even before they enter school age. You know when my son was going to kindergarten, I felt silly for for doing this, but I, I was terrified, right? I thought he's some kid, you know, by the time he gets to grade one is going to be hurling the N word at him. And I better prepare him, right? You're gonna hear this word that you're not supposed to even know, exists anymore? And what should you do? If you hear this word? What does it mean? And you should talk to your teachers about it. But I've had to have that conversation with my black son, right? Very early on when he was, you know, going into school, because I knew that that was going, he was going to be exposed to that word, and lo and behold, you know, he's entered grade three, and that word has come up in the school year, this year, the principal's called me, because, you know, she knows I do this work. And it's, you know, Janelle, the word has come up among the boys in the school. But of course, you know, the white boys, they didn't mean anything by it. And it's like, okay, wait a second. Now, their principal. Let's talk about this. So it happens, kids understand racial differences. Difference, we do need to talk about them early, you know, the system of white supremacy is conditioning us all. So you know, whether they're exposed to books, or movies or TVs, or just even their tablets, and, you know, smartphones, my kids have them. They're swiping, but they're learning and they're seeing, you know, little girls dressed up as princesses and playing with dolls. And even when we're reading her like ABC book, you know, the princess on, Q is for Queen, when we get to the Q is for Queen, it's a little white girl with blonde hair, and she's got the little crown on. And again, it doesn't represent who she is or reflects her. So she's internalizing these messages. And we all do and we're just not conscious of it. So I think it's just incumbent on all of us to become aware of, of the need for diversity in children's books, and children's educational materials, movies, things that they're exposed to. If we do have more representation, then we're going to deconstruct some of that, thinking that whiteness is real.

Leighann Lovely 36:54

Yeah. And you again, you Yeah, you just, I learned something right there. These are things that I again, I grew up not realizing, I grew up in a tiny little town that had, I think, I had two black people in my high school. I was completely, you know, shell shocked when I joined the army when I was 17. And I went, and all of a sudden, I was like, Oh, my God, I have no experience in the world whatsoever. And when I say that my daughter doesn't see color, she doesn't see differences. That's not what I mean. She Yes, of course, she sees that. But she's not cont she doesn't she's not conditioned by my husband or myself. Or my my brother is married to you know, she calls herself you know, she says, I'm, you know, brown and her cousin is, you know, this beautiful, you know, mixed child. And she, when she sees that, you know, I'm thrilled that she's growing up in a world where there is more diversity, where there is more knowledge and education around that. Is it perfect? No, I, there's not going we're not going to hit a perfect world for probably not in my lifetime. But I'm thrilled that she is growing up in a world where there's more education on that than than the world that I grew up in. It's a weird world too, though. Because not only are we talking about race now we're also talking about things like I identify as a boy, yet I was born as a girl. These are all things that I'm, I'm scared out of my mind on how am I going to explain those things, right? I mean, these are just, we're, I'm entering into uncharted territories. But I think we're all entering into uncharted territories when it comes to the world. And the shift, but I am extremely excited. Because, like you, I have felt discrimination for a total different reason. It was when I experienced that, that I truly kind of went wow, I am Here I am, for all intensive purposes, a very privileged white woman experiencing discrimination because I was born with a mental health disorder. I can't imagine if I was simply born with a different color skin and discriminated because of that. Yeah,

Janelle Benjamin 39:41

it's some there's so much so much hate in the world. And unnecessarily, right we we focus on aspects of difference that don't actually mean very much. A lot of it is just socially constructed, like gender and race, right like If there is, we wouldn't know what being a woman was if society didn't tell us what women should do or what women should be and those definitions of you know, What's black and what's right white and what's, you know, even that is is blurry, right? Because as you said, there's there's more interracial or biracial children, interracial marriages, biracial children. And the skin color variations are, you know, in my own family, my own black family, it's a complete rainbow of skin colors and hair textures. And you know, yet everybody might identify themselves as black. So what is black? And what is what is white? And, you know, ultimately, we're all just people, the humanity of us all should just take over. We should all, you know, aspire to be as, as we once were, as children when none of these sorts of constructs touched us, right, like white supremacy, or, you know, race and gender and all of these things skin color, and you know, what makes us a boy or what makes us a girl I'll never forget, I'll tell a funny story. As a child, I don't think I understood that I was a girl, right? I don't I really think my parents did a really good job. And that's probably why, you know, I started to be very fair and equitable and balanced. I didn't understand that I was different. Of course, people told me that I was a girl and my mother would never put me in dresses and all of those things, but I didn't understand the difference. And I would I was I would, what would you call it back then a tomboy, right? I play with my Transformers and I would play with my Hot Wheels. And I would you know, watch the cartoons of the things that the the quote unquote boy boys liked, right? I didn't want girly toys. I didn't want dolls. I just wanted, you know, my, my lunch pail was a Star Wars lunch pail. And that's the one I wanted. My mom wanted to buy me a pink one or a purple one. And I wanted I wanted that Star Wars lunch, just for an example. So I went,

Leighann Lovely 42:01

My mom would put me in dresses, and then she would find me at the end of the driveway in a mud puddle and be like, You got it.

Janelle Benjamin 42:09

Yeah, so I'll never forget, there's you know, I grew up in an apartment building. You know, behind the building, there was a park and I was at the park with my dad this one day. And you know, I'm playing and I'm running and it's hot outside, and I'm jumping in, I'm having the time of my life, right? I'm with the boys and roughhousing, we're climbing trees, we're swinging over the creek and stuff like that. And I, you know, the boys take off their shirt, and I took off my shirt and I'm running and I'm, I'm bareback. And the boys are like pounding their chests. You know, Georgia, the jungle was out at the time. And I'm pounding my chest and doing all these things. And I'll never forget, at one point, my dad, you know, I stopped for some water or something just for like, a quick moment. And he looks at me, he's like, don't you think you should put your shirt on or now. And I just took off running like bolting and crazy and never thought about it until I was much older. And I reflect back now on my dad saying, don't you think you should put your shirt on and I'm thinking how mortified my father must have been right that his daughter is, you know, running around, topless, with the boys climbing trees, doing all these things without her shirt on just completely bare back. And without a care in the world. Right? I was totally carefree and not realizing that that's not something socially acceptable for a girl to do. Right, you should put your clothes on. And really, my daughter, we're gonna do that right now. I probably mortified it I'd probably run and put her clothes on. So it's really interesting how, at some point along the way, I lost that sense of self. That was me. And I became the girl quote, unquote. And I wear dresses, and I wear makeup and I brush my hair. Like, I would never go topless anywhere. And I didn't want my daughter to go topless. You know what I mean? Like, well, she's only four years old. And I'd put I'd be like Dory put your clothes on, you know,

Leighann Lovely 44:08

Your body's changed a little bit since that time. I mean,

Janelle Benjamin 44:14

Defenatly but at the same time, right? What is the social acceptability of you know, at that time boys wearing without wearing their shirts now the other signs on the store entries? You know, you can't enter without a shirt on and things have sort of changed a little bit but for girls today to just do that and run around bareback. I think it'd be just impossible, right? You know, when it's because of what we put upon them. Right? But we it should at that age, why? Boys and girls bodies are not very different at all, went out at all.

Leighann Lovely 44:52

It's not until they hit puberty that obviously I mean, obviously that they changed drastically but I mean what What would be the big deal? You can't tell the difference? You know, it's funny that you say you didn't you know, you couldn't tell the difference between. I remember a conversation with my my nephew. And we asked him, you know, how do you tell the difference between a boy or a girl? And he's like, Well, their hair. Boys have short hair. Girls have long hair. Well, no, my dad's wife has short hair. She's She always had really short hair. And we said, Well, what about Yeah, yeah, sure. They call her Yeah, yeah. What about Yeah, out? Oh, well, she's the girl. But she has short hair. We, and I remember him going, huh? And really thinking about that? And, you know, kind of going well? Oh, no, my whole theory has been blown up. Like right now what? You know, so, it's always interesting when when kids you know, start to formulate, like, how do you tell a boy and a girl? And I've never asked my I've never asked my four year old but she always seems to just know. Because I'll say is that a boy? Yeah, that's a boy. Is that? Is that a girl or a boy? That's well, that's and she just always seems to know. And I'm like, How was she figuring it out? Like,

Janelle Benjamin 46:13

because of the way that we we treat our kids, right? We put them in colors that are different. We, you know, like my kids. My daughter has everything in her closet. That's like pink and purple. Not because I want it that way. But that's what's on the rack at the store. Right?

Leighann Lovely 46:28

Um, but my daughter know if I my daughter's favorite color is orange. Yeah. I've never

Janelle Benjamin 46:36

heard of that defined orange clothing that

Leighann Lovely 46:38

right? I have never met anybody whose favorite color is orange. Yeah. And I remember when she declared that. And I'm like, Oh, that's a face? No. It's been orange for from the very beginning. And since she was like, two, she's like orange, orange, orange, orange. And I'm like, how am I going to incorporate orange into her bedroom? Like? Yeah, I mean, but you're right. When we buy clothes for our kids?

Janelle Benjamin 47:09

Yeah, it's so easy. Okay, there's a lot to think about. Yep.

Leighann Lovely 47:13

So okay. We're coming to time. The question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self, and give yourself advice? When would you go back to? And what advice would you give yourself?

Janelle Benjamin 47:30

Well, you're asking me after I tell you that story. So yeah, I'm gonna go back to my younger self who's running around without, without her shirt on? Who thinks she could run as fast as the boys jump as high as the boys and do anything that the boys would do? And I would tell her that she's absolutely right, she can do anything that the boys can do, I don't think I would change a thing. I wouldn't tell her to put her shirt on. I would leave her in her, her complete innocence. And I know, that little girl knew that she was equal and as good as anything that the boys could could do or throw at her. And I think that's still the case. Even now. Now, maybe I think I'm better than for the better sex. So that's my bias. Now, now that I'm not that little girl anymore who believed in equality fiercely. Now, I think that women are far superior, you know, just joking. But if I could go back to another period, let me answer the question sincerely, if I could go back to another period in time, I probably go back to, you know, the person that I was in my early 20s. And just reassure that girl that she's capable of doing everything on her own and not, don't grow. I would say, don't graduate from school, and get a job. I would say graduate from school and create a job. You have what it takes. You're going to get some work experiences along the way that are going to help you guide others. But at the point where the workplace starts hurting, and people start hurting you. Believe in yourself, know that you have exactly what it takes to create your own job. That's what I would say.

Leighann Lovely 49:17

Awesome. That is, that is that is great advice. Great advice. Well, Janelle, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. This has been such an amazing conversation. I could talk to you for hours.

Janelle Benjamin 49:29

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, it was. It was good. A nice light hearted break in my day. appreciate you listening. I appreciate all your listeners who've listened to the end. Thank you so much again for having me.

Leighann Lovely 49:40

Yeah, you have a wonderful day. Okay, you too. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

LinkedIN – https://www.linkedin.com/in/janellebenjamin/

E-mail – Janelle@allthingsequitable.ca

Website – www.allthingsequitable.ca

Referenced in the Episode - https://blackspeakerscollection.pory.app/

The doll test - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOHbtM9463c

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, black, white, boys, girl, equity, world, experiences, thought, doll, speakers, children, interracial, inclusion, woman, day, grew, negotiating, society, speak

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Join Jaime White and me as we talk about her amazing experience including growing up with a serial entrepreneur, her 20 years of experience in real estate development and small business ownership, that lead her to her true calling in coaching others to help them find their true passions. Jaime is a mother of 6, she is outspoken and a strong woman, definitely a conversation I truly enjoyed having.

Leighann Lovely 00:22

If you are an HR professional business owner or at the operations level trying to understand what people want, you may be struggling. Our systems have been shocked practices have been questioned and culture is the leading conversation. Let's learn how culture is created, sustained, and why it should be the leading conversation when discussing hiring, training and retention. This is the foundation of any business and it's time to address it. So tune in to Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. We tackle topics that influencers of change need to understand and struggle to overcome every day, such as where to start, and what the new workforce wants and how to attract and keep positive momentum going. I'm your host Leighann Lovely.

Leighann Lovely 01:09

I'm very excited to talk with my guest today, Jamie white. Jamie White is a wife and business coach with over 20 years of small business and real estate development experience. Feeling a call to the coaching industry, Jamie is now focusing all of her energy into developing a faith based coaching business that focuses on helping people become the best version of themselves. Believe crew is a group of coaches learning together and helping others develop and grow. personally believe crew is for coaches that don't want to do the business part of coaching alone, Jamie has walked the walk of exhaustion juggled the challenges of leading multiple businesses while raising their six sons, and the potential of a divorce of an almost 20 year marriage to a former addict. Today, she's on the other side of that with lots of energy excited about the next 40 years with her husband and their boys, while leading their combined personal development and coaching businesses. So much can change when we change our beliefs, and start to invest in ourselves.

Leighann Lovely 02:23

Welcome, Jamie, I am so excited to talk with you. You know, I had the opportunity to talk with your husband in my previous season. So this is a treat. I am very excited to have you on and talk with me. So welcome.

Jaime White 02:36

Thank you very much for having me.

Leighann Lovely 02:37

Yeah, so why don't you you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Jaime White 02:41

Well, thank you, Leighann. This is something that I'm getting used to talking about. And so you know, when you have so much experience in life, and it sort of like what defines you what defines a person and when you're starting a new business, and you're trying to figure that out. So, but it's the 22 years of business experience that really keeps coming back as like, oh my word I've been through that. Like, you don't have to explain it to me, I've been there. And but I but I absolutely love business and real estate development. And so now I'm going into the coaching lane, which is something that I started to have a passion for. A couple years ago, as I started developing personally, then I realized that there was an issue in the coaching industry where there just wasn't a lot of support for the business side of coaching. So now I'm coming in combining my interest in business with coaching and hoping to help other coaches.

Leighann Lovely 03:37

That is awesome. And you're right. There's in the, for businesses versus individuals. There's there's kind of a lack there isn't there? Because, you know, if I want to go out and get somebody to work with me on an individual basis, there's a lot of there's there's some availability there, but for a whole company or for you know, yeah, you're absolutely right. But you just said,

Jaime White 04:03

Yeah, so what I'm actually looking to do is bring together coaches that are interested in doing personal development into a larger group so that we can share resources and recommend each other and everybody can have their specialty, but it's still a part of one community. So that's, yeah,

Leighann Lovely 04:23

yeah. Okay, that makes sense. Okay. So you are like you mentioned, you're, you're interested in businesses or business, but you are a business owner and a successful one at that you've, you've owned a couple is that, is that correct?

Jaime White 04:39

My husband and I have owned some rentals and some real estate and we actually have an escape room. And so we do have some businesses, but mostly what I was doing in the past was running other family businesses. And so I'm completely disconnected from that now and just really, really free to just go straight into the coaching lane.

Leighann Lovely 04:59

Okay. So, before we jump past that, so explain so you've you've run businesses, you're disconnected from that. Walk me along that journey a little bit. How does that all come about?

Jaime White 05:13

Well, when you grow up in family business, you just sort of, I mean, I, I started snowplowing, you know, before I had a license, he dropped me off in the Kmart parking lot, you know. And so just, you just born with it, it's in your blood. And then as you go through, I don't know if anybody else has this experience. But I have a dad, that's a serial entrepreneur. And so there's always the next new business that he's interested in starting. And so when I was 18, he asked if I wanted to start my own furniture store, and I thought, No, and I said, Yes. And I had no interest in design, I had no interest in furniture. But I had an interest in business. And so I thought that that would overcome all the other issues. So just, you know, all the different experiences that you can have along the way. And then when my mom died, a couple years later, he asked if I would come in and help with the other businesses that he already had running. And that's when I found my passion and my lane because I could actually scale something. The other one was more of like this design store. It's a long story. Long story. And I think you had said that you're, you know, like this season, you're one of the questions that you're planning on asking is like, what age would you start at? So it's just like, Oh, my word, all the thoughts come into my, my brain about like, all the different things that happen along the way of life. So when you ask about running businesses, and tell me about that story, and dig a little deeper, you know, really, what's the healthy and the healing part of where I'm at now is I'm so thankful that I had an opportunity to run multiple six and seven figure businesses at the same time, and I loved what I was doing, and the team I was building. But at the end of the day, the owner, which is also my dad, was not interested in the same things that I saw. And so it was time for one of us to go, and that person ended up being me. And, and the other way to look at that my team that I had built up, said, It's time for you to go and do coaching. So there's two ways to look at the same situation. You know, the one is like, oh, Ouch, that hurts. And the other one is like, Wow, that's awesome. You know, that, that I was in a position where we had built up leadership, and we had built up so many good things that they were like you go, you know, you empowered us. And now it's your turn.

Leighann Lovely 07:45

Wow. So you went in? And how many businesses at that time? Were you actively assisting and running?

Jaime White 07:58

Um, you know, there's multiple LLCs, you know, what it is when you start a business? Or maybe, I guess I shouldn't assume that everyone knows, but somebody's like, oh, I want to start a business. And they're like, somebody says, I want to start a business. And they're like, do I need to start an LLC? The answer is technically no. But it seems like we all think we have to go run and get an LLC. So there were like, 10, LLCs. But technically, you know, there were probably five or six that were really. And they were in different industries. It was retail and storage and rental properties. And then he had bought a dumpster company just before I came on board, and they were managing the dumpster company, from a whiteboard. And so when you would erase where the dumpster had been, then you wouldn't have to have records, no records, right? And so that was like my first project where that the group was like, the office manager at the time, we thought differently. And, you know, we didn't know that quote at the time, like dad said, Hey, can you come in and help me? And so I was like, Yeah, sure. And then they're like, Hey, we've got this problem, like problem.

Leighann Lovely 09:10

You've got, you've got to get more than a problem.

Jaime White 09:14

Yeah. So there was just a couple, but

Leighann Lovely 09:17

How old were you at this time?

Jaime White 09:21

You know what, I think I had just hit 30. And I, the year before I had been asked to come into his office was like, my best year, you know, physically, I was in really good shape. And that was tan I'd taken a lot of days off. And then he asked and I was like, no, like, a couple times. And then he just asked enough and I was like, Okay, fine. You know, it's like that moment, like, Okay, fine. If you need me, I'm here, you know, and, and it was such a mess. Like, I'm not just let's be real. It was a mess. There were 10 companies, the books were not an order and the person that The way it was being run, there was no leadership. You know, my dad was a serial entrepreneur. And he just kept saying, it's fine. You know what I mean? It's just the office. Like, there wasn't a lot of respect for the people in the office, and there wasn't a lot of an understanding of what new things could be done. And so he would come in, and he would say, Can we do the card file system? I was like, Oh, my mom. And he's like, your mom used to run this on index cards. And I'm like, Have you heard of the computer?

Leighann Lovely 10:31

What year are we living in?

Jaime White 10:34

This was not it was 2011. You know, it's like, Oh, my word. And then, you know, when I tried to change the phone system, it was like, well, we could just put four phones on the desks, like, I don't understand why you're making this so difficult. And I'm like, I need a phone system that can take multiple calls coming in from multiple companies. And so I found that stuff. So fascinating. And I loved it. We were definitely butting heads all the way along. But at the time, he, he had other things that he was interested in pursuing. And so it wasn't a focus. And then, you know, eventually, it was like, Oh, hey, I think I can do this now.

Leighann Lovely 11:15

You know, and that's it. It's interesting, because there are there are people out there businesses out there that are very progressive in nature. And then there are businesses that you walk into, and you're like, Whoa, I think I just stepped back into the 80s.

Jaime White 11:31

Yeah, in certain industries, you can get away with it. Not really anymore. Well, there is there is still a local industry that she has like carbon copies that she mails her invoices out on. So I'm gonna say that in, because in the, in the hands on work, like in our area, it's like an excavation business or like a sand hauling business or something like that. Like there's just not enough people out there competing. And so then technically, they can still get away with it. But they're not growing. They're, they're not adding people, they're not growing. There's no way you grow in that environment,

Leighann Lovely 12:11

Right. Know if you're small enough, but even I mean, so I originally went to school for computer programming. And during the time that I was in school, I was approached by somebody who was in the truth. Yeah, I was supposed to be in the independent contractor. He was a fire inspector for the city, contracted out by the city, the city wasn't able to handle the workload. So they contracted him out. They approached me and said, Hey, you're, you're in school for computer programming, do you think you could build us a database? And I'm like, do you really need a database for the amount of customers you had? And then I saw the stacks of paperwork. I mean, and I'm not just stacks upon stacks upon stacks and boxes of boxes, and I went, Oh, yeah, I have to find a way to be able to track and document where you've been, where you're going. And in today's world, even if it's 100, even if it's 200. Even if it's 50 isn't, it's that much easier if you're able to just sit down, but there are a lot of old school mentality. Now I was in school, this was would it this would have been like the early 2000s When I was, you know, pursuing my computer programming degree, which I almost, you know, it was a class short of my degree. And then I was like, I don't really want to do that. Switch to another degree and pursued that for another couple of years, to eventually, you know, settling on my my bachelor's in business in emphasis in HR. So what I did, helped me pay for some of my classes was I, I designed a database for them. Very simple. But I mean, you can use very simple deck just to enter in the basic customer information to make it searchable. Because I can't imagine looking at Rolodex and calling it but this is, of course, the way that it was done. But even even just that one, he was one man. And that's how he tracked all of his customers and have renewal dates and everything else. So it is even for a small shop like that. I don't think it's feasible anymore for most companies to be able to do and

Jaime White 14:31

I would agree. Right. But I didn't own the business

Leighann Lovely 14:35

You didn’t own the business. I suppose that it had to be even more difficult coming from the fact that you're one a coach to your the daughter.

Jaime White 14:45

Yeah, there's there were layers to work through it. But you know, I had done a lot of hiring and firing over the years. And I definitely took something huge away. Because I'd been there 22 years technically if you took you know the the furniture store experience and then tie I did in with all the other companies. And when I was doing the furniture store, again, that one was owned by him, but it was also they had no experience in retail. So that's how I ended up feeling like the owner the whole time. But at the end, I was just told we don't need you anymore. And I understand personalities. And so when I look back, you know, I have a really high D, in the DISC personality, and so I don't want to be considered obsolete. And, you know, my, my immediate reaction to that is not very good. But what I realized is that what I was missing was the Thank you. And so if I'm in a position, I expect to be in a position again, in the future to disconnect, you know, from people and maybe not specifically firing, you know, maybe it's just letting contractors go or something like that. And I just want to be in a position now to be able to say, thank you for the service for when you were with us. And it, it did make sense, you know, there's a point where it's no longer the right fit, and I I was no longer the right fit. And just hearing thank you for 22 years before being kicked up out of the door would have felt a little differently.

Leighann Lovely 16:09

So how was your relationship with your dad? No,

Jaime White 16:13

we're not talking, does that tell you anything?

Leighann Lovely 16:16

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Jaime White 16:18

I think, you know, I come from a family where you couldn't beat each other up, and then you, you know, get together again the next day, and it's totally fine. And so right now, I'm realizing that that was actually happening a lot. And I'd like to actually take a step back and say, you know, I don't actually need to get thrown under the bus that much and, and just, I'm taking some space, I think that it'll be good in the future. If, you know, there is a point where we are talking again, but right now it's, it's really good to have that space.

Leighann Lovely 16:47

Right? I have to admit, I know a little bit about you, because I well, you and I have not sat down and really had an in depth conversation. I have had multiple conversations with people in your circle. One being another Jamie White's actually.

Jaime White 17:04

That's funny. Yes. And

Leighann Lovely 17:07

I have to compliment you before I you know, really dive into the coaching side here because she was actually I interviewed her her for season one of my podcast and, and anybody who listened, you know, to her, you You fired her and said it right. You You did you you did and basically gave her an ultimatum you can you can leave here or in Actually no, I think it was I'm firing you from from being my caregiver for my children. You can either be my housekeeper or be a manager at is this the retail store?

Jaime White 17:47

It's antique. It's like an antique mall. So antique antique.

Leighann Lovely 17:50

And she now speaks so unbelievably highly of you, because you've given her an opportunity that she seemingly is thriving at.

Jaime White 18:01

Yeah, yeah. And that took me a long time to get to that point to be able to have that conversation like that, you know, it's not something that was natural. It was something that through coaching, I learned that giving people an opportunity, and letting them choose, but being clear about it. Like when it's no longer the right fit, you know, thank you for the time that you've been here. But now it's time for something or maybe and and here's a new opportunity, how would you like in one of my gifts. And this is what makes it so hard for me with the position that I was in and how it all went down, is I love to study the StrengthsFinder. And one of my gifts is Maximizer. That's my top one, which means I believe in people's potential. And then the other gift is individualization. Which means that I can see people's gifts and strengths and how they work well together with others. And so I asked my dad, I said, you know, if you were given all of this money, today, would you buy the same businesses that you currently have? And he said, No, I would buy a ranch. And I said, then go go buy the ranch. Like I'm completely supportive of whatever people want to do for their dreams. But what I wasn't doing was taking care of what my calling was and what my dream was. And so my kids were starting to see that. And they were saying, Hey, Mom, you're busy coaching all of us and telling us what, you know, what we should do or when we're not staying true to our core values. And they're like, but you're still staying somewhere that, you know, isn't true to your coaching. And I was like, Oh man, when your kids wake you up and kind of smack you in the face, right?

Leighann Lovely 19:37

You mentioned your kids. You're a mother of six. And I have to say that's insane. But you have a range, a range age where your children and some of them are much older, and they're getting to an age where they're able to call you out on because now they're able to recognize that in you, right?

Jaime White 20:03

Yeah, we have three older ones, and then three younger ones. And the three older ones were no mercy, which, you know, I haven't been super. I definitely let them know, you know, along the way, I, I said the other day, something that came out, and it's probably more true than I'd like to admit. I said something like, I breed entrepreneurs, so they're probably going to need therapy, if they decide not to become then so I've just been so you know, they've been my guinea pigs and practicing coaching along the way, and they were picking it up, and they picked it up really fast, like they can see when somebody is not being true anymore.

Leighann Lovely 20:41

Right. It's awesome that you have taught them that skill. But at the same time, like you said, kind of a slap in the face that now they're saying, Hey, Mom, guess what?

Jaime White 20:52

Yeah. And oh, man, it doesn't matter what I say anymore. You know, it's like, it's like living with coaches around here. You know, all of us are like, Did you hear what you just said? Like, that might be a belief. That might be a belief that you need to take care of. Okay, thank, you know, go work on that.

Leighann Lovely 21:14

Yep. That that would be like, my lip. That's every time I'm around my dad, my dad will look at me and go. Are you venting? Or do you want me to give you advice on this? Like, right? I'm just venting. And he's like, good, because you should not say that to anybody else. Okay, thanks, dad. Thanks. I'm aware of this. Yeah, you know, we all grow up in different but that's, that's awesome. So, mother of six. So what are the age age, the true age range here,

Jaime White 21:48

from two to 20. So our oldest is starting his own business as a machinist. And so he has a little teeny tiny workshop that he pays rent debt with a large machine, like it takes a crane to get it in. So it's one of those CNC

Leighann Lovely 22:04

Oh a CNC machine. Okay. very lucrative business. That's you. That's awesome. honing in on a skill.

Jaime White 22:12

Yeah. And the thing is that he loves learning and education. And so he's, I think being an entrepreneur is perfect, because you're constantly learning. So hopefully, he's challenged. But yeah, so from two to 20. There's six boys. And on Fridays, we take them to gymnasts, Cody Russell up in our area, he traveled the world touring as a, you know, like in one of those Cirque de Soleil type. And so I found something that the boys can all do together. And so he private coaches them on trampoline flipping. So I love to just see if I can get them to do stuff together.

Leighann Lovely 22:51

Right? Well, that's fun. And they all all of them all age ranges. They're all fun and all that's cool.

Jaime White 22:58

Yeah. So they all go out on the trampoline the rest of the week in practice their flips.

Leighann Lovely 23:03

That's fun. That's got to be difficult, though, to find something that two to 20 that all enjoy doing together

Jaime White 23:12

A bigger challenge than you know, it was it was easy. The first three, you know, when they're all kind of boom, boom, boom. And then when you have space, you're like, Okay, we're doing stuff together. And I love to plan trips. And I love to plan trips with everybody and engage everybody. And then when you have the next set of kids, and they're not the same age, it just slows the whole trade down. And you're like, Wait, now, what are we gonna do together? So it does take some extra level?

Leighann Lovely 23:35

So what's the gap?

Jaime White 23:38

Let's see. There's an eight year old and then a 15 year old, so it's a seven year gap. So it took a while for me to be willing, for more. Wow, I

Leighann Lovely 23:48

just want to put that out on the record that I have a four year old and I'll never have another one.

Jaime White 23:54

There's still time. You know, I

Leighann Lovely 23:55

I'm 41 I'm not I'm not having any more children and just taking care of one child. For anybody who's considering having children.

Jaime White 24:05

One is a lot one is a lot. It's you've got a

Leighann Lovely 24:09

you've got a woman with six children and you've got a woman with one child. I will tell you if you want to message us you know after you listen to this I will tell you all the horrors of having just one child and I'm sure that Jamie will tell you all the horrors of having six and if you want to be talked out of having children I will surely be able to do that for you.

Jaime White 24:36

Yeah, one is, one is a lot yet.

Leighann Lovely 24:38

I love I would never ever not want to have her because she is the most pure, perfect thing in my life. Yeah, there's there's nothing more pure and she could probably she could do the worst thing in the world she could do Yeah. And their

Jaime White 25:01

energy, their energy is amazing like that. You just want to snuggle, you know, where it's like how can I just soak up just a little bit of this energy in this? Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 25:13

Yes. And I'm 41 She wants to play in the mommy come sit on the floor with me. And I'm like, Can we sit on the couch? Because mommy. Before? Now you? I have obviously spoken with your husband, Kevin White has also been I like I said, I you and I have never actually sat down, really gotten, you know a great comment. Well, we we've talked before, obviously. But I've spoken with a lot of people in your circle. Yeah. And you've gone through a lot with your husband, and you've come out the other side and your family seems to be whole and doing well. Tell me a little bit about that.

Jaime White 25:50

Yeah, so when I first was married, Kevin and I were married at 20. And even when we were dating, he had told me that he had had an addiction to porn, and I didn't understand what that meant. And so, you know, then later when it showed up in the marriage again, and he was he was honest about it most of the time, and I got to the point where I had really good intuition, and I could tell, and so I would call him out on it. And it was always better to talk about it versus leaving it hidden or pretending it didn't exist, because the energy is just so different. When someone is an addict, and they're hiding it. The energy of shame and guilt is, is, you know, under whatever is going on at the time. And so there were times my mom. So my mom had cancer, she was diagnosed at a young age. And so Kevin and I are early. I think we got married right after she was diagnosed. And then we had our first child within that first year. So I was 21. My mom is sick with cancer, I have a little one. And those first couple of years were crazy, hard, crazy hard, like where you just wonder, I mean, then I had the second one, and they both had whooping cough at the same time. And so now my mom has cancer, she's out, going around the country trying to get treatment. And then my younger brother and sister were home, so we were staying with them. So we were, you know, parenting teenagers, while having two little ones with whooping cough. And that was when I hit my hit my max capacity. And I called Kevin up. I called Kevin at work. And I said, I need help. And I grew up in a business. So the customer always comes first. And so when Kevin said I can't come, I questioned it, because I knew he wasn't running a business. I knew he was in management. But I also just at this point kind of questioned the decision of like, really? How could that be more important? And I think, you know, his response was like, Well, I'm sure you have some help, you know, you'll be fine. I, you know, and like that position of leadership. But I didn't understand the addict mindset that he just didn't really have the emotional capacity to understand what I was actually in the middle of and I, to be fair, didn't say, the house is on fire. You know, I wasn't super clear that this is like, like, this is a big deal right now, this is mental breakdown moment. And so then, you know, just going through that stage of life where there's just a lot going on, and you're slogging through and you're not sure what you're doing right and what you're not. And my, we would go visit my mom on weekends to try and help her out because she was getting so frail. And you know, she's in a walker at 44. But like, her bones were breaking and brittle. And and so it would be you know, what, one of the stories is one of my kids birthday. And Kevin is hiding, you know, like a lot of our marriage, he was like hiding, you know, and just like that low energy that comes from addicts. And again, I didn't know, I didn't totally know that. That's why we were having these struggles. And so, you know, looking back, I was the enabler, I was the, you know, we're gonna make it work. We're gonna figure this out. I'm a problem solver. We're gonna you know. And so, we had three kids and my mom had just died. My sister had just died. His mom was now sick and dying. And so they, you know, our moms died early on, and there was just so So much going on that you just do life, you don't just over you don't, like, we're running business, you've got your job, you know, I'm going this way, you're going that way, and you just keep kind of doing life. And then I think I had mentioned early in the podcast here that, you know, when I was about 30, I was feeling great and physically feeling great. And I just, you know, been really taking care of myself. But then within a couple of years, I hit a low point, and I just didn't even know that, you know, for years, I wondered, like, How did my mom get cancer? And how could you not like, would you know, that it was coming and then I had this thought when I was in my early 30s, like, you know, actually be kind of peaceful to die. And I realized that, if I kept having thoughts like that, I could see how your body could be cancerous, like how you could be in a not good state. If I continue to have these kinds of thoughts. What am I going to look like five years from now? Right? And so I remembered I thought, you know, usually we say, well, I don't have the time, or I don't have the money. And my mom had spent a ton of money, trying to get help, and a ton of time trying to get help once she was in a really bad state. So I thought, Okay, well, I'm not going to wait that long. But to give myself permission today. And I told my boss, aka my dad, and I told my husband and I said, I'm gonna go get myself some help. Like, I don't know what this means right now. But I'm basically telling you, I'm spending money. And I'm taking time off. I don't know. And I think that was the moment that I started taking care of myself. And I didn't realize how important that was. Before that,

Leighann Lovely 31:50

You know what, oh, I'm sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. But I think that the majority of us don't realize that. And you're you the fact that you were so self aware. And the fact that you were strong enough to tell your loved ones that hey, I need to take a beat, I need to take care of myself. We all forget, you know, the the old saying of if you're on an airplane, your masks drop. put your mask on first. Yeah, yeah, it is. 100% true. But so as in, and I see this a lot in women, a lot in women, it's, it's also in men. And it's becoming just as equal but women predominantly the the responsibility of children, and the responsibility of a lot of the house duties have always fallen on them. Yeah. And you have that the idea that the housework and keeping everything always pieced together and held together, falls on. So women

Jaime White 32:55

were really, were really good at it.

Leighann Lovely 32:57

Yes. And so we just assumed that, well, if I just continue to just squeeze and keep everything in place, and just hold it together, I will be fine. I will be fine. But eventually, you realize that I'm not fine. And yeah, the more and the harder I squeezed to try to keep this together, the more life I'm squeezing out of myself, and possibly everybody else around me. Yeah, having that self awareness. And again, I'm not just saying it's in women, I There are plenty of men out there, who, who need to also be aware and self aware that they have to to, it's just that men for so long have have not been willing to ask for help or feel that there is shame in asking for help. And not one person in this world has accomplished anything 100% on their own unless, of course they're climbing or scaling a mountain on their own right. But the majority of us the things that we accomplish in business in life, there's usually somebody there backing us up or helping us or training us or teaching us or helping rise, you know, helping us rise, right?

Jaime White 34:06

Yeah, if if I wouldn't have seen my mom, then I don't know if I would have connected the dots. You know, I am definitely someone that thinks about things and you know, can be in the overthinking category. But seeing it and living through it with her and just wondering what how did that happen? Because technically, the life looked perfect on the outside. I mean, she was absolutely beautiful. She ate all the right things. She exercise, you know, millionaire, like, technically very successful looking. And I didn't know there was a problem behind the scenes with you know, emotional pain that you know, she was working. I mean, I knew later. So I was aware, I was aware and i There were a lot of things that I had learned through her journey. And that's what keeps me you know, where I was like, Wait, it's not going to be any better. If I just keep letting this go, something's going to have to stop. And you're right, that it can be men and women. And I think at its core, I really feel for anybody that says, I'm exhausted. And when you can't sleep away the exhaustion, because that's probably one of the first signs that you're heading for burnout. And so it happens to both sides. And I really have a passion and a heart for people that are in that space of burnout. And just being like, I can't figure this out, I can't figure out why I can't sleep this off. I'm just and you know, that's when I realized that I wasn't being true to my core values. There were there were beliefs in conflict, there was another level that I didn't know existed. And that's, you know, that was the start of the coaching journey for me, because I didn't know that there was like this whole nother level of thinking. I was just doing life, you know, when that question that, you know, what, what's the question? What age?

Leighann Lovely 35:57

So you want the question of this? I do. Okay, well, let's do this. Yeah, the question of the season, if you could go back to your younger self, and give yourself advice, when would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Jaime White 36:16

Yeah, so there's a song, dear younger me. And I think about that often. And, you know, you go back, okay, for me, I go back to 18. Because up until 18, everything was almost magical. Like, I lived in a bubble, it was great. And all the sudden, the bubble popped. And, you know, so in some ways, you could say there's pros and cons to having a bubble. But it goes back to this idea. I think we're all meant to grow. I know, we're all meant to grow. It's a basic human need. And there's something that happens when you're at that, you know, 17 or 18 Age frame where people are like, What are you doing next? What are you doing next? And, you know, you don't know you can't figure it out. But you're like, Man, I gotta figure this out. I don't know, what am I doing next? And you're just trying to figure out, how do I get my life together? Like, I'm moving and I'm transitioning. And but there's just this really high awareness about the transition, you know, people are talking about it all the time. Well, technically, there are a ton of life transitions. And we just don't talk about them at the same level. And we just stop asking the question, what are you doing next? What are you excited about? You know, like, how many people do you meet? And you're like talking to them? And you're like, what are you learning now? Or are you going to school? Are you doing this, and people just don't ask the questions in the same way that they do. When you're in that, you know, high school years of like, or early teen or late teen, you know, early 20s have, like where everyone's excited, they know that you're gonna be doing this transition. And there's just a lot of conversation around it. And maybe different people had a different experience. But for me, when I look back, I feel like there was just this idea that you're launching into something different around that timeframe. And then

Leighann Lovely 38:09

what? So what advice would you give that 18 year old girl,

Jaime White 38:15

that this is just one of many transitions? Like, how do we navigate life successfully, we already have it inside of us, and trust your gut and intuition. And don't feel like you're making this, you know, lifetime decision that and really, you know, I think for me, and maybe this isn't for everybody. But for me, I don't think that I felt like there was going to be somebody else with me on the journey after you leave school, you know, like, in your high school years, you have your parents, you have your teachers, you just have different mentors and coaches along the way. And then it's sort of like, okay, I didn't, I didn't have this idea that there would be somebody else that would mentor me besides my parents, or besides, you know, if you go to school or something like that. And so, today, I just feel like there are meant to be so many mentors in our lives and Institute.

Leighann Lovely 39:09

And statistically speaking, when it comes to that age of of individual, you know, I think that a lot of people, again, an 18 year old, they're graduating high school, they're moving on to college, or some and I'm not a college pusher at all, some moving into a trade school or or getting an opportunity to actually work in the trades or like your son opening up his business. You know, what CNC machine? And you're right, there's going to be so many transitions. Oh my gosh, if I talked about all the transitions that I had in my life, we would never stop talking. Right? Right. But statistically speaking, the thing that somebody goes to school for is unless they're going to school to be a doctor, unless they're going to school to be an accountant, something that you actually have to have a specific degree in usually doesn't end up what they become.

Jaime White 40:06

We and you, I, you, we might be on here for another hour if we get started on this subject because I, I am the type of person that would say, Okay, you want to be a teacher, let's find a different way besides the traditional system like I go online and I google how to become a teacher from and I go to the Wisconsin Department of, you know, whatever I need to find. And there are a lot of alternative ways to get to even those things that you think you need to have a traditional degree for. I am so anti system and pro education. That's my lane.

Leighann Lovely 40:41

Okay. Wait a second. Anti System Pro education? Well,

Jaime White 40:45

pro learning?

Leighann Lovely 40:46

Yes. Pro learning. Okay, I am. Absolutely I am anti give your money away to the government, for you to walk away in debt to start your life out? Yep. I, seriously, you want me to give you $80,000 For a piece of paper that says that I have a degree in XYZ that I'm never probably going to end up doing unless I'm a doctor that's going to sorry, if you're not, if you're gonna do surgery on me, you better have a

Jaime White 41:15

better degree, some experienced someone else.

Leighann Lovely 41:19

Right? And, you know, I, you know, if you're going to do my accounting, I would really prefer that you've had some, you know, schooling on on the laws and accounting. You know, how many people I come across who are like, Oh, I went to school for blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, okay, so what do you do for a living, they're like, Oh, I do, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, that has absolutely nothing to do with what you went to school with. I would love for school to become all tech schools, hey, let me go to school, two years, get the hands on experience that I need. And walk away with that, and then have more large organizations, very large companies say, we will take on these individuals and get Hey, the government gives them a little bit of money to to actually bring on and give them real world experience. And now, speaking from a recruiter, I would speaking from somebody and you're right, we could talk for that. Go give a company money, go give company 40,000 a year, or 50,000 a year to take on three students and train them on how to do you know office accounting work, how to do billing, how to do payroll, how did you machine whatever it might be, instead of having them go into debt to become the we did this in the trades for years, we had all of these, you know, apprenticeships and all of that stuff that what went away, now you have to go to school and pay to become it.

Jaime White 42:45

Why? So I love that you open this door, because this is this is a door that I you know, try and keep closed and I use the word try loosely. So what you said about trade schools, so I used to totally be in agreement with you about trade schools. And then recently, I found out that they're doing a class that is a needed class that I needed to hire people that knew how to use Microsoft Office Word OneNote Excel, like I want people coming into the office, knowing how to use this product, the class is so bad, it's it's actually so bad. I'm not sure the statistics are a bad thing. The class is so bad, that I don't want to hire anyone that has passed it, I would actually prefer to hire the people that have failed it or have chosen to withdraw. Because it doesn't even allow you to think like I need people coming in that want to work for me that want to think that want to grow, they want to be given opportunities, because with technology the way that it is today. What I'm seeing as way more important is that companies that have these new technology, they're creating their own certifications. And kids can go online and say hey, I want to learn how to do HubSpot, you know, or something and become certified in Salesforce or something like you're way more ready for the workforce. If you go get a certification from a company that is a sob that's providing a solution to businesses, then going into the school systems. And I was under the misunderstanding that academia or college was to prepare you for the workforce. And some people have been saying, Well, no, it wasn't even that wasn't even the point. I'm like, Well, okay, good to know, because that was not taught to me

Leighann Lovely 44:31

know, I'm at high school, and they teach you in college. And this is a battle that recruiters fight a lot. They teach you in school that when you graduate, you should be making a minimum of six.

Jaime White 44:45

Kevin told me that line when we were getting when we were dating and then thankfully, I only plan for half of that.

Leighann Lovely 44:50

Right and I and I'll talk to some of these college students and I'll go wait, I'm sorry. Why do you think that you should be making this much with no experience and only an education and they're like, well because that's what our professors told us when we graduate. And I'm like, Okay, well, good luck with that,

Jaime White 45:06

oh, man, I did not think about how recruiters are dealing with it, because that was the issue for me. And hiring and firing, like, the position I was in, I actually found that the best thing that I could do to get the workforce to be in a good place was to hire, the higher the education, the more it gave confidence to the people that were under qualified, under certified, you could say, like, people coming in with no experience and no education, were nervous when they're starting. But they had a desire to learn and desire to do the job. They weren't so Oh, yeah. And so and they, and they looked for ways to solve the problems, they didn't just expect the problem to be solved. And so then I would hire the four year or, you know, college degree students. And it ended up being that that was the confidence builder, because when the other people were like, wait, I'm training you on this, you don't know, well, then never mind, like I got this. And it just it, it was the best, cheapest way to build confidence in the team. And it was like an internship, you know, you have an internship for a little bit. But if schools if anyone is willing to help these students, it's building the soft skills. And we know this, we say this all the time, but it doesn't seem to matter. They're not interested, I called the college and I said, Look, I actually need you to teach this product. Right, this Microsoft Office product, I got nowhere, I talked to the dean of the college, I got nowhere and I was told that it is a required course by the state. And I am telling you, it is so bad that I will hire the people that withdrawal from the

Leighann Lovely 46:42

course right now, and I want to, I don't want my audience to think that I am anti school, I am not anti education, I am not anti learning. I'm not me either. There are some individuals that need to that need to experience college in order to to get a true understanding of the world, they need to get out there. They need to experience college, it is a good experience for them. But there are some individuals that that need a different experience. And that's a true work experience that that's a true and there are certain disciplines, engineers, accounting, obviously, doctors, there are certain areas that you do need to go to a four year college, but going to a four year college and getting a bachelor's degree in economics, what for being so that you can say that you have a degree, a bachelor's degree I struggle with that I struggle with with people who say, Well, my child is going to get a degree. Yeah, for what? So that you they can waste your money or their money will be in debt. There's a lot of

Jaime White 47:53

degree guilt, a lot of degree guilt, they stay in an industry that's not even there. It's not their gift and strength, because somebody else told them to go for it. Right?

Leighann Lovely 48:02

Yeah, I truly believe that some of these individual they go in, they hide at school, and they stay there as long as they can. Because they are afraid that they Yeah, know what they want to do. Yeah, absolutely. And then they come and talk to me and go, Well, I you know, I was in school, but I don't really know what I want to do. And I'm like, What did you go to school for it? Well, I just went, I just went and got my general, you know, economics degree. And I'm like, Okay, do you have any areas of interest? Really? Just, I'll take anything? And I'm like, Well, I can't help.

Jaime White 48:32

Oh, yeah. I love that. So I used to have a booth at the job fair. And, you know, so I would ask, you know, what are you here for thinking, you know, maybe they had an idea of what they were looking for. And the response more than often than not was a job. And I said, like the other booth?

Leighann Lovely 48:53

It's, so if that's what we're kicking out, then maybe there needs to be a, let's learn about all of the different types of industries out there. Let's learn about what, what an engineer does. What does mechanical engineer do? What does an electrical engineer do? What is you know, based on somebody's skill match? What does a computer programmer do? What is a, you know, aeronautics engineer what and I'm listing all these engineers, you know, what is what is an accountant? Do you know, based on personality types, maybe before they go to school, they should take Yeah, personality is absolutely once which is obviously going to change the more they get exposed to the world to the more they come out of their shell.

Jaime White 49:39

But so our kids all know we have one really high D in the disk and he's got learner as his number one strength and then the next kid knows that he's totally different. And that really helps their communication to understand like, just because this is what drives you. This is not what drives your brother. And so the first one is a machinist you know super high person Vision oriented and driven results. And the next one is totally into the next movie that's going to be released and looking at, you know, becoming an influencer on tick tock and who knows he is going to have a digital PhD by the time he's done doing all this research. And the next one is doing construction, but wants to write a book, like, we totally embrace that you get to, like, really dig into you and not be shamed for not, you know, being a good speller or loving math or whatever, because I saw that, you know, as an A student, I needed to work for the other people, because I was still looking for the A versus the people that weren't getting the A, and they're like, Hey, I'm just gonna figure this out on my own. I was like, actually, that's actually maybe a better idea. But, you know, when you go back to the idea about debt, I don't know, this is kind of a foreign concept for me. But maybe, let me see, it's not really a foreign concept, it makes so much sense to me. But maybe it's a foreign concept. So I'm encouraging my children to be entrepreneurs, and to go into a field, and then be able to write that field off when you go to get some education around it. So I'm wondering, like, instead of going into debt about college, if we can look at it as a business write off.

Leighann Lovely 51:22

Hey, if I could write off my college expense right now, I would be like jumping for joy because I graduated with my my bachelor's degree finally, in 2008. Now remember, I started you know, so I was in the military, I came back, I couldn't figure out what do I want to go to school for it was recommended to me that I go to school for computer programming, because I am high, extremely high and math skills, you're you're off the charts, you're extremely great with math. So you should go in for accounting. Well, unfortunately, accounting didn't work. For me, I have a disorder called mixed dominance disorder. It's a form of dyslexia. So yeah, that's not going to work. Right? When you transpose numbers, and you know, transport, I write letters backwards, I write it. Obviously, accounting is not going to work when you're flipping numbers around. So computer programming, I'm like, okay, great. I liked it. I enjoyed doing it. Like being able to, you know, write code, write little databases here and there, blah, blah, blah, but realized, I don't really want to do this, because I love people write and write is not a match, I'm not going to sit behind a desk all day long and write code and the only way you're going to grow in that, you know, in that discipline is if you at least do that for a couple of years before you reach any level of being able to communicate with people.

Jaime White 52:42

So technically, what you're saying speaks to the other problem that I see, which is how many of the higher education courses are sales based, are really people based. And sales is like not talked about at all people went through interior design, and then I would hire interior design students. They had no sales ability. What do you think? So you're gonna be selling to somebody,

Leighann Lovely 53:05

right? But here's the thing is that I went, so I switched my degree to my bachelor's degree. I was able to put all of my Gen Ed courses towards my bachelor's degree. They all transferred, graduated in 2008. With a discipline in human resource management. I was working in the field, then the floor dropped out. Yeah, yeah. Economy. Yeah, I had to defer my student loans for a long time. Because I was making Well, what 2008 I was making 50,000 base plus bonus, based on you know, production, blah, blah, blah. After I was able to get back in the market, I couldn't make more than 30,000 Yeah, barely pay my rent. Yeah. So if you have yours, I deferred my student loans. I know still, to this day, I owe $10,000 more than what I originally took out to pay for my student loans. On my government student loans now I've paid my my private student loans way down really quick. But my government student loans I owe $10,000 More than I originally took out still.

Jaime White 54:18

I'm really glad that you're sharing that because when I've talked to people about that, and I'm pretty good at getting deep with people. They struggle to share that because it's so much shame

Leighann Lovely 54:28

because it's embarrassing as all hell yeah. That in tooth out since 2008, it is 2022 Yeah, and I am still struggling to pay that down. And I am a successful businesswoman that right I'm not gonna say I'm a millionaire, right but there I own my own home. I have two cars. I own a very nice home, but it's

Jaime White 54:53

it is going where the payment plan is set up.

Leighann Lovely 54:56

It's the the last effing thing I pay off. I'm going to slow as slowly as humanly possible, pay that off and hope that one day the government finally gets on board and says, Yeah, we kind of screwed a lot of those people, let's wipe it away. Now, they're never going to wipe away a private student loan, the government has the ability to say we need to forgive some of these these student loans that had been sitting out there that we tacked on 10s of 1000s of dollars of interest on top of

Jaime White 55:20

It's a, it's a cycle of a problem. Because when I was at the job fair with a booth to offer people jobs, that my biggest competitor, were the other colleges saying, hey, come over here, and you can get a better job. And I'm not saying that I don't want people to better themselves. I absolutely agree with education in the form of learning. I'm just saying that in today's society, I believe that there are a lot of options that do not cost as much, but employers will pay for people to get education when they see someone that wants to hustle. I was at the point where I was offering, you know, $5,000 a year credits to my employees saying, hey, go get some leadership training, go get some What do you want to learn? And they were like, we can't even find a course we're interested in, because everything we want to learn is actually online. And that's why we switched to leadership. Like there's just, it's just a really interesting market. And that's why like, even with our kids, were like, What do you want to learn? What do you want to do? And they're like, Well, I can find it online. Like, okay,

Leighann Lovely 56:19

you know, and I have this conversation all the time with, with my dad is my, my mentor, my hero, my, you know, he businessman, for years ran out, you know, had many agents underneath him, he was in the real estate industry. So he was mowing. And I talked with him all the time about, you know, higher education, and you know, am I going to push my daughter or my kid, I'm going to let my daughter choose Make a decision for herself. Now, the nice thing is, is that her grandparents, my husband's parents set up an education fund for her,

Jaime White 56:50

right? Well, even if she has that fund, you're saying at this point,

Leighann Lovely 56:55

I don't know where the education system is going to go. In the next 10 years,

Jaime White 57:00

I had hoped for the tech system. And then when I called because I was like, this program is really bad, like really bad. And they're like, it's basically mandatory. And anybody that needs to take a course, or anybody that wants to have a degree, pretty much has to take this course. And if you would have told me that as a business owner, if you would have said, to put me in a roundtable and said, Hey, this is a mandatory course Microsoft Office Word, Excel one, I would have said, awesome. That's great. That's what we need. Hello, actually look at the course. Oh, wait. They're not training anybody on it. They're training you to memorize. I do not need anyone coming to my office that needs to memorize stuff, because I don't have any training program built out at the level that you can memorize it. And even if I did, I probably don't know how to train you on it. Because what's happening with the generational multigenerational workforce is the technology is changing so fast that what the young kids coming in have the ability to do is learn the new stuff faster than those of us that are there. We don't even know how to use the programs we're using. And that's not going to change that is not going away. So

Leighann Lovely 58:08

I Okay, so years ago, Microsoft, I obviously computer programming. Well, we all had to take that. There was no memorization we known it was a build your own, it was like a urine out. It was access at that time. Yes, the database that I use, yes, I built a database in access. So there was no memorization. It was, hey, here's access. Here's what we're going to learn today. And then by the end of that course, you had to go home and create an actual database

Jaime White 58:36

I thought when I started the furniture store that I was going to create my database for tracking inventory, because I didn't know that software like QuickBooks existed. And so I was so busy trying to create it in Excel and access that, you know, when somebody came to me, and they're like, do you want to use QuickBooks? And I was like, what's that?

Leighann Lovely 58:52

Right. So, yeah,

Jaime White 58:55

There's just so much out there that we're not really being made aware of in the school system is where I'm coming from right now.

Leighann Lovely 59:04

No, I higher education is. Yeah, we could talk for the next. But we are at time, and we're going to have to wrap things up. So you're coaching. If somebody you're with belief crew,

Jaime White 59:22

yes. Yes. So somebody wants to get a hold of us.

Leighann Lovely 59:26

If somebody wants to get a hold of you. How would they go about doing that?

Jaime White 59:31

Well, thank you, Leighann for hosting and thank you for inviting me on. I did not expect it to go in the direction that it did. And I love where it went. I am been looking for a platform to discuss this because I think it's a huge issue. And if somebody wants to get a hold of me and any coach in personal development, I'm actually looking to bring on more coaches. And so we've created a company called believed crew. So obviously we have a website you can just Google belief crew, Jamie white, if you spelled it my way. I am the other Jaime white, which is J A I M E, and just hilarious that there are two of us that met. But um, and you can reach out via cell phone. I'm always available too, but in you know, in this virtual world, it's amazing how everybody's using these calendar links and scheduling and booking and you know, LinkedIn, find me on LinkedIn and website. I love this. I love this virtual world and in our ability to connect, I don't have to know your cell phone number. I can just find you on LinkedIn and send you a message.

Leighann Lovely 1:00:34

Yep. Awesome. Jaime, this has been such an amazing conversation. I truly am a better person for meeting you as well as your husband, Kevin, and it has been just it's it's been awesome getting to know both of you and I look forward to future conversations with both of you.

Jaime White 1:00:51

Well, I come back anytime. Thank you, Leanne.

Leighann Lovely 1:00:54

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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

business, people, coaching, mom, degree, years, pay, school, firing, college, started, learn, life, student loans, coaches, furniture store, kevin, conversation, dad, world

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Check out episode 1 of season 2, where I have Andy Weins is in the hot seat. Andy is a one-of-a-kind serial entrepreneur, veteran, speaker, coach, and all-around genuine human. We dive in on creating culture, understanding people, and running a successful business.

Leighann Lovely 00:19

Leighann Lovely 01:07

Launching Season Two with me today, I have an amazing guest. He is a serial entrepreneur, speaker, veteran owner and all around humanitarian. Of course, if you met him at random, you would probably think he's just an average Joe, because he's the kind of person that would stop and help you change your tire on the side of the road. Of course, he would not get away without a great conversation and a whole lot of F bombs. Because Andy wines is his authentic, unique self no matter where he is. And that is why I am so excited to have him join me and have an awesome conversation today about business ownership, about culture, and about basically, how to run a business.

Leighann Lovely 01:50

Andy, thank you so much for joining me today. Why don't you tell me in five minutes or less a little bit about yourself and your business?

Andy Weins 02:00

I mean, we get down and dirty even less than five minutes Jack, I bless we got a lot of questions to get to it's not to talk about me. Let's talk about HR. Break it out Barney style. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I was born and as an entrepreneur, I worked for large corporations, I worked for small companies, I joined the military deployed came back home. And after having done all those things, I realized that I was running away from what I was put on this earth to do, which was run businesses. My father runs a business with my mom. Both my grandfather's ran businesses, my great grandfather's tool, my four grandpa great grandfather's ran businesses is what we do. So I run businesses. I'm a father, I'm a veteran. That's it. I mean, we don't need we don't need much more time. And then I'm sure we'll get into some stories over the next hour as we dive into HR, what makes me tick.

Leighann Lovely 02:53

Awesome, great, great beginning, and I was gonna go right into, you know, in all senses of the word from the moment that I've met you, you are definitely a serial entrepreneur, but a successful one. Many, many people can say that they're a serial entrepreneur, but few can say that they are successful serial entrepreneurs, right? So you wear many hats? How do you go about balancing all of the different job duties that go along with owning multiple businesses.

Andy Weins 03:25

It's all about the use of language. I'm a big fan of linguistics. And so one of the words we I don't use and one you just use, there is balance, don't use the word balance. It's not about balance, it's about alignment. Do these things go together? I look at life. And it's really it's really three parts? It is it are three aspects of defining who you are, right? It's kind of the what you do, right? That's we talked about here, this is the work thing, right? And it's the family, right? And then who you are as a core person? Well, let's just take those three things, right. And the goal is, these are three strands, right? I can I liken it to a rope, or you have these three strands. And separately, if they're competing, right, we think about balance, one goes up, one goes down, right? That's balanced, it's bullshit, you will constantly be juggling and fighting. But the goal and the key thing is how do you align these three things? Right? Because within those strands, there's a lot more strands and a lot more depth. But how do you get those three main strands to align, interact? And then as you do that in life, the more you have these strands interacting and have alignment, you have this nice, strong life. And so I look at even within work, right, which strands, feed the major strands, right? And then how does it interact with my family and how does it interact with my relationship with myself? And then how do I build this strong, repeatable life that I want? And then it's about alignment. And then how you do that is you consistently look at yourself, and it's about self awareness, self regulation, and then self reflection and For those three things, right, when you're in that reflection stage, you're to start stop, continue methodology. And within start, stop, continue, you will look at going back to the beginning, what do you need to start doing, stop doing or continue doing so that you live a life that is alive in these three aspects of your life?

Leighann Lovely 05:19

Wow. And you said something that's, that's really important, which is, you know, self awareness. And obviously, everything starts with with that. Yep. How did you get yourself to that point, though?

Andy Weins 05:33

Well, I mean, the running joke is self awareness is the first step. But it's not the last step, right? What is the most critical step because it's the first step. And that is where I'll make the argument. Most People Fail. They, they are not aware of who they are. And there's, there's a ton of methodology of how you can make yourself aware of it. I don't care if you do a DISC assessment, or Myers Briggs, or ask the people around, you go to a fucking counselor, like, figure it out, right? Get a bunch of these data points. And then also understand how you represent and is the person that walks in the person that wants to walk in, right. And so being aware of that, and then being good with it, right, the moment you stop giving a shit about what other people think or feel is a beautiful thing. Now, those are data points, it's not that I don't care, it's that I'm not going to let those perspectives change who I am for the sake of change, I'm not gonna let people water me down for the sake of watering down, if I want to modify my behavior is because I'm aware of my behavior. I regulate my behavior, because in reflection, I recognize what I do and do not get out of this world. And I want to make sure it's consistent across the board. So that's the key was self awareness. Are you doing something different? And if not, are you comfortable with who you are? Are you content are those very different words? But what is that word that drives that? Once you have that conversation with yourself, then you can show up to life? And breathe easy being you unapologetically? Because 8 billion people on this planet you are you no one else can do it better. Just go out and be you. But be aware of who you are that avatar of a person that that thing that operates, you know, it's different than the the body and how it reacts in the world is very different than the soul and the mind. Right? But what is that avatar? Is that consistent with who you think you are? Who you want to be? And what do you want to get out of this world? Once you started doing that and take the time, you got to put the time into work on yourself. That's where I think a lot of people fail. They don't take the time. They don't put the time in because they'd let their ego get the better of them.

Leighann Lovely 07:43

That's, that's amazing. And I think that we all wish that we could constantly show up only as ourselves constantly No,

Andy Weins 07:51

no, no, no, I'll take a line for Brad Herta. We don't wish we plan. Right. Okay, well, there's a difference. Wishes pot a fucking star. No, we plan. This is what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna wake up early, I'm gonna have my coffee. I'm gonna put pants on. I'm gonna whatever, whatever the plan is that gets you to show up as the person you need to be. I can think of I can. I know the elevator. There's an elevator in Walkinshaw. I have to go to the third floor to go to this networking group that I don't want to go to I haven't wanted to go to I haven't gone to in a while. But before I didn't want to go there. But in my head. I'm like, I gotta be here for the sake of my business. And if I'm going to show up here, I got to show up. So elevator door closes, it's gold, mirrored fucking whatever. 1990s bad to Corp. Anyways, I can see my reflection. And if I show up, like I don't want to be here, that person shows up. But if I show up, and I put a stupid smile on my face, I show up different and that's a plan. If I wish I was just in a better mood ain't gonna happen. But take the three seconds to smile at the mirror. Give yourself a high five like Bo Robbins tells us to, and then go out and kick ass. But that's a plan. Not a wish.

Leighann Lovely 09:07

Absolutely. You're right. You're right. But that is a struggle that many have. It is a struggle, that many fear. And that's something that

Andy Weins 09:18

what what are you afraid of? Where's this fear piece?

Leighann Lovely 09:21

Well, I'm not necessarily speaking to myself, it took me a long time to show up as me on a regular consistent basis. Right. There are people who fear walking into work every day and thinking I'm going to be found out because I have XYZ going on at home. Because impostor syndrome correct. And that's a real thing that people exist and but you have crit you clearly have created a culture at at your businesses. And you accept everybody for who they are. Is this what you're saying?

Andy Weins 09:55

100% Absolutely. Wonderful. Yeah. Easy, simple.

Leighann Lovely 10:02

So tell me how you created and, and have allowed people to do this at your business because this is what really truly interests me you are. And every time I've ever come in contact with you, you are you every time I see you wild, crazy, professional, all different flavors of Mr. Andy wines. You are 100% You, but You are unique in in to too many circles of people that I have come in contact with.

Andy Weins 10:37

Yeah, so to answer the question at the top, how do I how do I do? And how do I create that culture? It's real easy, unless it's illegal, immoral, unethical, we fucking do it. Right? And I get to be the referee on the morality, right? And the ethics here. Right? Illegal is governed by a different entity, I'm not gonna say hire but a different entity. Right? And then what's moral and what's ethical round here is is is up to the the discretion of the individuals that make up the culture. Right? I'm not the commissioner of the league. I'm the referee, so that I can solve dispute if there is such a dispute with that said, just a referee, right? I'm not the end all be all right? Alpha and Omega, I'm the referee to say, Okay, how do we allow people into our organism, right, we treat our organization like an organism, elite, living, breathing thing, so that when people come in, they can impact the culture, one of the most bullshit questions in HR is, hey, do you think you're going to be a good fit to the culture? First off, they don't know what the culture is? Because they're not there. Right? And culture is? Right? It is, it is exclusive of people that aren't in the culture, right? It's inclusive of the people in the culture. So if you're in a candidate, you don't know what the culture is, other than whatever bullshit they sell you on the website. So terrible question. Second piece is, you're not considering the what that candidate can bring to your culture. Right? Because culture is not a static, stagnant thing. It's forever changing and evolving. So the question should be, what are you going to bring to the culture of this organization? So now we flip it on its head, right? We know that organizations when treated like an organism, a living, breathing thing, all the individual components play a role in how that organism organism functions? And what do we accept culturally, I can certainly be the referee to make sure it's not illegal, immoral and unethical. But after that, let people go right, let, it's that simple beef and weird, or Don't be weird, I don't give a shit just be you. And then create a culture and what that is it accepted. If I want to be accepted, I have to accept others for being themselves. And that's it. I might not like it, but get the referee, not the judge and jury. It's different.

Leighann Lovely 12:57

So how would somebody handle as a company grows, obviously, cultural, like you said, the culture will evolve, it grows like an organism, organism, as you've mentioned, now, as companies grow, you start to see a shift in that now you have different departments, and different people start to influence those different departments and almost like a break of that organism becomes to how do you continue to keep those working together, almost as one yet also separate. And I'm not saying as completely separate, I'm saying that you have two different things working, but also in the same building?

Andy Weins 13:42

Well, because they started from the same place, right. And within the organization, especially here, when you have this table, I have one point at 10 franchises across the country. And our culture became individualistic at the site, because we didn't do enough to bring everybody together. And we didn't have a strong enough culture. So So it made us very adaptable and flexible when we out in the real world. But then we also had very different customer experiences from one to the other. So we did some things like having centralized HR centralized dispatch, so there was a consistency in that HR bucket consistency, and that and that operations bucket, but at the end of the day, the sites function very independently. And that was part of the culture. Because the way you operate a site in Texas is different than California is different than Wisconsin. And I've had businesses in all three places. And so you have to allow right you have to have a strong enough practices or procedures and all those SOPs and all that good stuff, right? So that when you do say, okay, here, here's the organism now, take it over here and plant the seed. They have that framework of the business side, but they get to develop their own culture. And you got to do check ins to make sure that culture is be consistent with the values and beliefs of the over All entity, but you've got to let it grow. And you can't, you have these two organisms that you talked about that separation, you can't make them function the same way. A G G is a prime example right now GE is going through a major shift, they're taking their three divisions that are all, like a triangle, right with the same leadership structure. And they're breaking them into three silos. Because the way that you know GE Healthcare operates is different than the other two entities. So now they're going to silo these things because it just doesn't work on top. Because there's, there's significantly different than the other two business entities, it might be to a point where you gotta separate completely. And this is a major company. And they tried doing it, where they had the, the one nucleolus controlling all but the silos did operate the same now they're breaking into three different companies. So I don't care if it's our 20 person operation here in Butler, Wisconsin, or a huge, you know, multibillion dollar organization like GE, you got to recognize, you know, at what point does the culture sort of negatively impact the business operations? Again, alignment, they got to align with each other, they have to complement each other. If they don't, you're gonna have conflict, and then that's when people leave.

Leighann Lovely 16:21

Absolutely. So you mentioned your business in, in Butler, Wisconsin, and I want to actually touch on that before we go any farther. So you what was your first business? First of all, let's start with that.

Andy Weins 16:39

It was well, I'll say it'd be there's a lot of Andes candies is probably the first business I remember, fourth grade, third or fourth grade, I sold nature's touch candy bars for a buck apiece for the Boy Scouts. And I also sold everybody else in the troop, because I branded it as Andy's candies. And I was out there hock it up, and whatever they were $1 apiece, and like 50 cents went to the Scout 50 cents, but I didn't I didn't care. And the stupid thing is I don't I can't have sugar. I can't have candy or chocolate. And I was still able to, to get out there and Hawk them was probably third or fourth grade. So that was Andy's candies. And then,

Leighann Lovely 17:20

of course was in fourth grade. You were born an entrepreneur.

Andy Weins 17:26

Oh yeah, I've been taken apart lock sets and faucets since I was five, six years old. Right when I could have a screwdriver I could I started taking stuff apart. I wasn't very good at it. But I learned the skills then that I use to this day. But on my father's company, two man crew hammer we had a PC when I was probably 10 or 11. And I learned to type on a typewriter like old school carbon copy, feed it through make sure lines up press the buttons. And so I've been I've been writing estimates, I think I learned writing on a typewriter was probably seven or eight, which now my daughter is eight and she can type like nobody's business. But like that wasn't normal for us to type. Right? We could do cursive and then we could type now the cursive was a dead thing whatever. Till a tangent but but uh, I used to type on a typewriter carbon copy proposals and, and bills for my dad. And then and then it went to the PC. I remember the first time I took a proposal and turn it into an invoice by just changing the word proposal the invoice and like, you know, quote to balance do my dad was blown away. Say What do you mean you have to retype the whole thing and my eyes changed like the two things and give it a fake number. We're good, it looks good. Looks nice. Right? And he had like actual letterheads you to feed feed the letterhead and make sure it was whatever, you know, facing the right way. So it printed it because you know that was 25 cents a piece of paper for that that letterhead. So you don't want to you know, now you've screw up approval, you redo the PDF and resend it rang it a little Docusign. Back then that was that was a quarter of 30 cents a piece of paper because it had the logo on it on that, you know, nice heavy stock paper like you know, that's where I cut my teeth, doing that shit going into Microsoft Word and just customizing it. And I remember like, the first time I did a proposal for the company clutter busters, you know, or, you know, the quote, It was like, you know, quote, 0001 So I'm like, fuck it. I'm gonna start at 100 So it was point 000101 I'm like, hell yeah, I've done 100 of these before that. You might write because you want it you know, you wanted to buy yourself some credibility. So clutter bussers back in 2009 was the first company I had and it was out of necessity. I got laid off two days before Christmas in 2008. Because you know, that whole financial crisis, right? I was I was I was Iraqi combat veteran that couldn't get a job for more than $9 an hour. When I said fuck that I'm gonna go do my own thing. So I was I was hauling scrap by the alleys in the northwest side of Milwaukee and cleaning out little ladies basements at 100 hours a trailer on the weekends. And that was that was my first business. I remember my business card I wrote serving our community since 2008. I bought my cell phone of the year, because I just you know, I did a couple of jobs in 2008. Without a name was Yeah, so 2009 We'll call it the clutter busters, which was eco friendly, clutter removal for your home and business. That was our tagline that was it. And I paid, paid, I got my 250 or whatever it was business cards from Vistaprint. And I spelled the word business wrong. So I was fucking passed. So I had to then pay for the next 250 It was like 55 hours, and I didn't have 55 hours. So you know, I had to figure that out. Right? I started my business with that, that business over the 100 hours. I spent $55. At Vistaprint, I spent 35, 40 bucks at OfficeMax getting bright green flyers and went around and put in people's doors. And yeah, it was it was terrible. It was wonderful at the same time.

Leighann Lovely 20:59

That's awesome. And look at you now how many businesses do you own today?

Andy Weins 21:06

Ah, I have four or five kinda sorta, I mean, you know, a couple of them. You know, I, I've started and stopped businesses. I've opened and closed I had a media company for about three years, I close that this year, I realized I love creating content for our businesses and for for, for us. And I love creating content for others. But I don't like to facilitate creating content for others, if that makes sense. So like, so I closed that was antidote Media Group we went on, we went hard on that for about two years. That was a lot of fun until it wasn't. And so I own it, but it's it's a dormant company. Right now. We have one large project we're finishing up to about 20 minute documentary finishing up for the VA. So we're doing that one, but then after that, I don't anticipate keeping that business running. So you know, our mainstay is camera crew junk removal. That's the business that pays the bills. And then we have the redrum Mk II, which is a side hustle at best. It's a entertainment business come in break shit, have fun. And then Young Guns, which is a passion project of mine. Those are the three main businesses. And then you know, we have an entity for our building. I'm a part where my parents we own a farm together in Mequon, I'm gonna get chickens this year. I gotta list like, I gotta, I just gotta put up my whiteboard. So I gotta let I'll announce it here first. So these are the things I'm going to do. In the next two years, I'm going to get a chicken farm going. I want to do that. I've always wanted to be a farmer. I grew up on my grandparents farm. So I'm gonna do chickens. Probably next year. For or what? What is this for me? For me for me? Okay. Yeah, so the razem slaughter. I'm Salem, Edom. So it's a chicken farmer, I want to this year I will become a licensed or certified whatever the nomenclature is. Small, small arms instructor. So I teach people right now just passively how to shoot. And so I'm not looking to make money and I, I want further training doing it. I do the military. So I just want the civilian equivalent to get myself more practical knowledge to enjoy that. And then I also want to get my pilot's license in the next 18 months. Oh, so. And again, not not like, I don't know, maybe there'll be a business. It's more over like, I want to fly a plane. So

Leighann Lovely 23:29

go do that. Yeah, that's, that's awesome.

Andy Weins 23:32

So those are three very random things farmer, you know, small arms instructor and pilot.

Leighann Lovely 23:39

Well, if you ever need to, I don't know fly your chickens anywhere or

Andy Weins 23:43

and shoot and shoot on the way. Yeah, we're good. That's it. I mean, right. And again, it's doing these things without losing focus on the mainstay, which is environmental consulting and hauling junk up out of landfill. And so again, it's about that alignment piece, right? I don't, I don't get to do those other things unless that that junk removal business is out paying the bills, right. I'm writing a book right now. I'm doing I still do keynote speaking. I have a podcast right? All those things. Those are my hobbies. My hobbies just happen to have a business aspect to them. Right. Like, we have a hobby farm right now. I just want to bring chickens on the hobby farm and then see what happens. Worst case scenario is I have a freezer full of chickens at the end of the cycle or two.

Leighann Lovely 24:29

I'll buy some chickens. Yeah.

Andy Weins 24:31

And I learned how to raise chickens in more more environmentally sound. And there's some really good practices out there and how to raise chickens, you know, organically and humanely. And that's interesting to me.

Leighann Lovely 24:44

Right? Mainly, and then you kill them and eat That's correct.

Andy Weins 24:47

100%

Leighann Lovely 24:51

That's, yeah, hey, and it's great that you have you know, a successful business and then you can also have, you know, side Business, possibly side businesses, you know, teaching individuals to shoot safely and something that people would enjoy. So if that turns into a business, now you have something that you can enjoy and love doing. So I mean, that's awesome. That's, it's finding a good and you don't like the word balance, but I'm gonna use it anyways, a good balance in your life to you know, work life balance and, you know, finding different things that you you know, an outlet to, you know, really enjoy, and it's never too late to go and get your pilot's license, why not? Right? So, yeah, so with all of this, you know, with every all of the different things that are going on, and I'm going to go back to this the culture at an at a company, and one of the the main things that I see happen at companies is that somebody starts up a business and it grows, it goes through an exponential growth. And as that culture organically naturally grows, the individual at the top, spends less and less time at that company. And that culture, kind of, like an organism grows on its own and kind of takes over. And so at what point or, you know, how, at as the individual at the top that owner, how do you stay plugged in to truly know what's going on, on the floor, when you've got so many other responsibilities?

Andy Weins 26:29

Well, I'm not on the top, let's let's, let's go back to that organism, I'm in the nucleolus. Right, and that's different right there. It's a level playing field, we all contribute to the success of the organization, some of us are more close to the nucleus than others. And that's, that because of, you know, our risk aversion or ultimately comes down to who's most liable. Those there, those that are the most to lose, and the most, again, are the nucleolus. That's just how that's that. That's how it works. And so there's a lot of things and mostly technology, right? Why why not embrace technology? So for example, my phones in my pocket, and I can feel it going off here, throughout the day today. We have an app with with our guys and I can I know every transmission that happens between our guys in the field, right? So I can tell, hey, are guys running ahead of schedule? Are they running behind schedule? What is the cadence and their voice? How are they feeling? Right? Yeah, you know what, we're just gonna run it right now. I was, I'm gonna see what these guys were talking about. But an hour ago, I can just press the button here. And this is what I do. I listen to this on my way home or throughout the day. Get a feel of how the guys are feeling on a given day. Operations. Listen, for Blizzard. I have two team members who are ready to whatever meet us at Blizzard Charlie location one was done at the Bravo. Good Capri will do. Thank you.

Andy Weins 27:58

So we'll things like that. I know the guy is I know who that is. I know if he's ahead of schedule. I know his demeanor. Right? I also know it's four o'clock and ESBL by 4:30 to go to bags because he plays bags at 4:30. On on Wednesdays, right? So I can I know he will have a good week or a bad week based on whether or not he gets off at 4:30. Today to go to bags. That that is it. Right? Is that simple. But I can also look at our operation software, I get a pulse for the guys, one of the best thing to do I can walk the yard, I can walk the yard, I can tell you who worked yesterday who didn't work based on how clean the yard isn't not clean. So you don't have to be I don't have to be down on the floor. I don't have to be out in the trucks 24/7 To get a feel for how things are going. And then you just do walk in talks. Hey, what's going on here? What's going on? What's what's going on there? I also use certain people's indicators. There's one guy, right. If he's pitching I just that's a good indicator that he's breathing that day because that's what he does. Right? If he wasn't pitching I'd be afraid he might not you know have any air in his in his in his lungs. But then I got another guy who drove me he's been with us it'll be five years next month. He'll been with us five years. If Jerome complains about something. It's something because drome doesn't complain it's all cash withdrawal like yesterday I saw Jerome I was I was leaving the shop he was loading up some stuff in his car my daughter was talking to him he was jovial as a Hey was been good job is that man is good is good like ABS you know, like he had nothing to say but as good it's good right? So now I know there's no so someone else comes to me right now like oh, the morale is terrible. You know, it's not a stock drone. drones that were good. But that person might be having a bad day. Right or that day might have got bad but if things are bad for days on end or weeks on end drama, let me know if I asked him if I don't ask him he won't tell me. So it's not entirely passive, but you got to know where to go to get the right information. And then also new guys run it all our existing guys know what when we get new guys hey, what do you think about the Companies so far, right? Because retention is key. And I was very pleased. You know, last week I asked one of our new guys he's like, yeah, don't feel like the new guy. Everyone's like, super cool and chill and teach me stuff. He's like, a lot of times you go to a new place people treat like shit, because you're the new guy. I'm like, yeah, no, you just make, like, you're, you're, you're making things better around here. Because you're allowing us to take on more work. Because we can, we can do more with more hands. So that's it is little indicators like that. You can't trust everything, you know, one person says all the time, but you can try. You can trust a lot of people and just have conversations. And you also have to know what is what does right look like? And and you don't know that unless you're, unless you grew up in the business, or you built the business, you don't always know I came from the franchise world. Why do you know I did junk? Well, for years, then I got into the franchise world, and I left. And a lot of franchisees, they didn't know what right was, because they were told by the franchisor. Well, right was, but they didn't know their ass from a hole in the wall. So they didn't even know these little indicators, you gotta check. And when you build your business, you know what right looks like.

Leighann Lovely 31:05

Interesting. And that's awesome. You know, it's, I don't want to say that it's not often that the owners will walk around because somebody in your position who has been in the thick of it, who, and somebody with your background, who knows what it's like to have $55 in their pocket and to start a business and then to be successful, they understand that it just, it's life isn't given to you, you have to work for it,

Andy Weins 31:34

we got to earn it every day, myself included, and that's my job.

Leighann Lovely 31:39

But people who who've, and I don't want to say people who've just been, you know, their life has been, you know, given to them on a silver spoon every day, have a tendency to forget that they need to walk the floor, they need to get a sense of the, you know, a feeling of How is everything going, what is going on, and then addressing those issues, head on in order to create that culture. And, and having a culture that is great, versus shifting a culture that is bad. To make it great is obviously a different thing. You're talking about, you know, a huge, but to create it from the ground up.

Andy Weins 32:23

You got to build it, you got to be intentional. Right. Right. And that's, that's,

Leighann Lovely 32:27

that's amazing, Andy that you have,

Andy Weins 32:29

you can't fault people from where they came from? Good, better, indifferent. Right? We definitely have, you know, if anything in this, in this country, I think of all the conflict we have, the greatest conflict we have right now is, you know, the haves and the have nots, right, those in power knows that the rest of us, right, and what he's saying in class warfare is the 1% of 1% of 1%, fighting the rest of us, you know, 99.9999%. But without getting too political here, but when it comes down to when it comes to the classes, right? It's not about where people came from, it's where you're at today. And it's the obligation of the all the leaders within the organization to establish the standards, right. And so you have somebody that doesn't recognize, hey, you got to walk the floor every day, you had to take the fucking happy hours out their office, grab their hand and walk the damn floor. And if they do it on their own accord, God bless. And if they don't you take them and you take them and you take them. And you do it until they recognize it. If they don't recognize it, you ship them on down the line and have somebody else deal with them. Right? You're right, there are people that grow up with with more or with or with less, and it is what it is. Certainly it's your job as a leader to show the standards, right? I hire a lot of people with the expectation that they're going to know more and see more than I do, and rarely does that happen. So there's a reason why I'm the one that started the company, and I'm the one that owns it, and they don't, because they don't see what I see. Right? And because I see it, it allows me to challenge them and lead them and show them what right looks like what we're where we're going to set forth that vision, right. And then it's on them to execute, right and understand the details and fill in the gaps and fill in where I'm not strong. And so it's not a question of where people are coming from it's it's an obligation of the leadership of the organization to set the tone. And the leadership fails to do it. That's on a leadership. It's not on that individual. Yeah, absolutely. We are in a world that needs and leaders and a lot of people are so afraid of being leaders that they're not

Leighann Lovely 34:46

absolutely. Either they're afraid of being leaders or they're not trained properly in the simple. They're simply trying to be managers and they don't want to be leaders.

Andy Weins 35:00

as well, those are different words, sometimes you need a manager, sometimes you need a leader, you can't just say you can't manage people. I hate that word shouldn't leading people will lead to better results and manage people, you can manage. You can manage processes, you can manage places, like we have a warehouse manager, his job is to manage the product within the warehouse, you can manage that you're going to manage it. If you want to manage people, then you're going to teach them those how and the what and monitor their activities, and you're going to own the results. And that sounds fucking terrible. And we leave it leaders leaders, set the expectation that a result, they lead the people on the people figure out how to achieve that result. And I'll make the argument. If you have 11 people in the room and one's a leader and 10 people have to figure out the how there's more collective brainpower that 10 How people and there's the the one what person, right and collectively all 11 need to know their why the organizational why, and their individual why? Once you start doing that, now you're leading, and now the leaders leading with the why, hey, this is why we need to do that. And eventually, you'll have the white leaders, and you'll have the how, you know, the the how leaders, I'm sorry. And then the white people, they'll figure out how to do it. And that's a beautiful thing.

Leighann Lovely 36:21

And we don't have enough leaders, we have enough managers that are in tears, because,

Andy Weins 36:26

Yeah, because because they've been been lied to for 130 years. Because our public education produces workers and managers, not leaders, and then you're told to go to college, you learn, you don't learn how to fucking lead and college.

Leighann Lovely 36:44

Don't take me down that path. Okay, you don't want to lead.

Andy Weins 36:47

I was working with students from UW Madison. And I'm like, man, they're college educated, like, You got to be not dumb to get into Madison. Right? These are Madison, and they're seniors. I started working with them in February, and they're graduating in May I'm like, these are gonna be some a high speed individuals, they could write an email. No, because no one taught them soft skills. Because our society is like hard skills, hard skills, hard skills. They didn't, didn't know how to basics, didn't know how to have a conversation that wasn't in text message.

Leighann Lovely 37:16

Yeah, they're taught memorization. There's grit, and now it's leadership. No,

Andy Weins 37:23

is that correct? No problem. I look at college, I have a bachelor's degree, my bachelor's degree says that I have an ability to learn. And I have an ability to write papers and give speeches. Those are the abilities I have. It doesn't matter what I wrote the speeches on, it doesn't matter. The research I did, it was the fact that I was able to take a problem and write a paper and present a logical argument. That's what I've done. All the other stuff is BS, because it forever changing and evolves. And you can learn it all on University of YouTube for a lot cheaper than that going to college. College has failed people. And this notion of participation trophies is fucking failed people, our society and I've been in the military 18 fucking years, and better the world. And you're right, that the monopoly I have is, I have no problem taking chances and saying what's on my mind, right? A lot of people don't have that. And they don't want to leave. They just and the problem we have even more now is we have people that don't want to follow. Because you have three options in life and only three everything in this role. I break down the three, right? You can lead you can follow are you getting the fucking way? And we have a lot of getting the fucking way people right now. Okay, so if you're not a leader, and you're not following, guess what bucket or it

Leighann Lovely 38:54

doesn't leave a lot of other buckets there.

Andy Weins 38:57

There's no other buckets, right, that's it. Because even with me, right? If someone walks into the hey, this what we're doing, I'm like, okay, hey, Eddie, shut up trying to follow. Let's go. Right. In order to be a good leader, you got to be a great follower first, right? We're out when I have failed as a leader in the past. It's because I didn't recognize the needs of the follower. I put my needs before there's servant leadership is is the leadership. It's not about you. It's about serving the people at all aspects. Right. Even within the company, you know, like, we've talked about this in the past, there's only four people you serve. The only four people that matter. And, in organizations get this wrong all the time. There's only four people you serve. Once you recognize that you serve four, and they're not equal, but you you serve them fairly, not equally. So here are the four people you serve your customers, your vendors, your Your investors and your employees, nobody else matters.

Leighann Lovely 40:07

And I truly believe that one of the the first steps to becoming an amazing leader is humility, until you have truly accepted humility, you will never become an amazing leader. And there are too many people out there that are, are too self centered and too high in themselves to be able to accept that. And that will always keep them in the manager category.

Andy Weins 40:33

Yeah, because they're going to be humble enough to recognize that you don't have it all. It takes a team, right. But then the difference between a manager and a leader at that point is you also have to be proud enough, not pride, right, but proud enough to stand up for yourself. And it's the obligation of the organization to have an environment that encourages that. So I worked for Fortune 500 companies where my ideas weren't well received. And they didn't want original ideas. They just wanted you to follow their system. Well, it's like you're holding me accountable for the results, which are not allowing me to change the actions. Well, then why was not I'm just managing the actions, the results, I have no control over. Right? So I'm just mad. Right? So you have to be proud enough or whatever the word is chutzpah, intelligence, whatever, to take some calculated risks, you might lose your job. Right, go back to that nucleus, because right? Those the rest of most have the most to gain or lose,

Leighann Lovely 41:38

Right? And FYI, if you do this, you may lose your job. But but you know, once

Andy Weins 41:43

you start with, let's start with what's the worst that can happen? Okay, you can lose your job. Is that it? The fuck over yourself, right? Or do you? Or do you want to die a slow death? 20 years of hating your job? Because you chose not to speak up? Or we're not allowed to? Yeah, you are, you might get fired.

Leighann Lovely 42:03

I love that. But you know, what your your I have worked for a large company, I specifically went to work for a smaller company, because they were holding me accountable for results. But I was saying, but your systems not working. And they're saying, but you need to follow the rules. Okay, I'm going to leave, because either I'm going to do what I'm going to do, and you're gonna fire me or I'm going to leave gracefully, completely agree with everything that you are, are saying, but we are coming to time. And I don't want to miss out on the opportunity to ask you a couple of other questions First, if if somebody wanted to take out their frustration at their job that they hate right now, and they're stuck at? Where would they be able to come to the rage room and

Andy Weins 42:52

Rage Room MKE in Butler, Wisconsin, that's it. Rage Room, M K E, Google it, you'll find it, it's that simple

Leighann Lovely 43:00

Andy it'll be in the show notes. But Andy, I have a question of the season. This is, you know, you have taken the opportunity to launch Season Two with me episode one, I really appreciate that. So this is the question that I will be asking everybody this season. So you ready for this? Girl? If you could go back to your younger self and give yourself advice? When would you go back? And what advice would you give yourself?

Andy Weins 43:30

I'd say second grade ish, first grade ish. Back when I cared about what other people thought about me, right back, back when you're, you're not a kid and you're starting to morph into Oh, there's a world around you. And you're not just free, right? And you're getting picked on and bullied and questioned. And obviously you want to fit in with everybody else. And I'll give the same advice I give everybody else and this is the life advice. I came up actually last week at a young man's event I came up with his life advice. And it's not PC but that's for the PC police. So here's the life advice. I would I would tell that kid so as it's called second grade, I had a great teacher in secondary Mrs gets in second grade. I think that seems like a very logical time My daughter just graduated second grade. So I'm like, You know what, that's that's an age where I can still remember some of the things that happen. So here's the advice I'd give that kid and that's the advice I give everybody and this is advice that I also have to remember life is boiled down to the going back to three three phrases have four words each 12 words that this is what I'm living by now. Do the fucking thing. Tell the fucking world shut the fuck up.

Leighann Lovely 44:47

And you think that that your younger self would understand what that meant?

Andy Weins 44:55

Yeah, because I didn't do the thing. Right I was busy. I was busy telling the world who I was, you know, was or wasn't going to be. And and then, and then I, I felt the need to respond to everybody for everything. Right? If I had just been me, right, if you're just you, no one can stop you. No one can do it better than you. So just you do you do you do the thing, right? Be proud of who you are be like, Hey, I'm Andy, this what I'm doing. You don't like it? That's on you. That's a huge problem, right? I'm a big fan of saying it's a huge problem. Because people come to me with problems well as a you problem. And then walk away. Right? Because if you want to solve everybody's problems, you're gonna be running your mouth and solving other people's problems on your own. Right when the challenges people have is they don't know when to shut up, myself included. So that's what I work on now. Right? Tell the world. But then if someone doesn't like it sounds good. Right? There's people that if they've made it made it this far in the episode of the podcast, they might not agree with it, I have to say it's fine. Least you're listening. Right? If you want to have civil discourse, we can certainly have it. But and maybe I can learn something from you. Absolutely. But But after that, go butcher business.

Leighann Lovely 46:23

I think that if we were all are 100% our authentic self all the time, not everybody. Let me just rephrase. Not everybody. There are a lot of assholes out there. And, you know, just put them on an island somewhere and but if the majority of us were just all our authentic selves, and we'd get over it already, I think that there would be a hell of a lot more work getting done. shit happening every day. And you know, happy people walking around. It's it's as simple as that. It took

Andy Weins 47:00

but let the assholes be assholes. Because of their their true selves, they'll get found out.

Leighann Lovely 47:06

You're right. You're right. And, hey, those circles that I hang out and it is pretty obvious, pretty quick, who they are.

Andy Weins 47:17

And their voice is just as important as our voice. Right? The goal is with a freedom of speech. Right? The best ideas come to the top. Yep. I rather have the hassle speaking because they're assholes either way, but at least I know they're there their agenda? I'll take I'll take that over. You don't know who you can trust? Absolutely. So

Leighann Lovely 47:38

Well, Andy, this has been, as always an enlightening conversation. I always jumped at the chance to sit down and have a conversation with you. Each time I always walk away with, you know, some gold nugget of information that I know that I can use. So I do appreciate taking the time it's are you taking the time, it's always fun. It's always been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Andy Weins 48:03

Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 48:05

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyweins/

Rage Room MKE - https://www.rageroommke.com/

Camo Crew (Junk Removal) - https://www.camocrew.us/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, business, culture, andy, leaders, organism, years, company, fucking, day, chickens, life, world, organization, job, self awareness, running, referee, walk, person

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Thank you again for all the fantastic guests that participated in season 1 of Lets Talk HR – Humanizing the Conversation

I have put together a recap of some of the great moments from this season so I could share them again. I hope you enjoy!

Please take a listen to the moments I shared with #Jonathan Heider, #Betsy Clark, #Ashley Podzius, #AJ Kruse, #Jamie White, #Brian Herczeg, #Dylan Sessler, #Roger Wolkoff, #Denise Schamems, #Chelsea Budde, #Teri Kerr, #Hanna Paul, #Kevin White, #Eli Rivera, #Ruben Gaona

We will be back in a couple of weeks for an all-star lineup in Season 2!!

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Speaker, coach, artist and all-around amazing inspiration. Betsy is also a seasoned business owner and understands business and life. If you are looking for tips on self-discovery this may be the person to take a listen to. She focuses on Mindset and accessing your brilliance.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:05

I've been so excited to have this conversation with Betsy Clark. She's just an amazing woman. Betsy has been a successful entrepreneur for 43 years her mission is to help women let go of feelings less than or who are tired with struggling you have done the work yet you cannot identify or access your brilliance Betsy breathes life into women's businesses and helps them leverage or monetize what's right with them supporting women to live more fully focusing on what they need to quiet their mind chatter. So they can hear the whispers of their heart living out her tagline your mindset matters. Her current business as a mindset Chaplin transformation partner parallels her work in interior design, it just expresses itself differently. Previously, she created beauty with paint. Now she uses words, Betsy supports women to find their voice communicate their value, and stop doubting themselves so that they can flourish in both life and business. She encourages, empowers and equips women to step into their brilliance, and be a leader worth following. Betsy has lived in Colorado Springs for the past 30 years, with her husband and dogs. She and Archie are truly happy campers. They travel frequently in their truck camper to play with their kids and grandkids to soak up the beauty of Colorado and the Wild West.

Leighann Lovely 02:42

Betsy I am so excited to have this conversation with you today. I've had the opportunity to talk with you previously. And wow, I'm just very excited. So thank you for coming on and talking with me today.

Betsy Clark 02:53

Thank you, I am so excited. I've just been out of town and I I really rearranged it so that I could be here with you. And I'm really looking forward to our time together.

Leighann Lovely 03:04

Yeah, and you travel quite a bit.

Betsy Clark 03:07

I do I do COVID sort of cramp my style. But I have been traveling a bit, I am bound to go out and get this message out about how you can show up as your best self and show up authentically and really understand what's right with you. Instead of that, ah, what's wrong with me. Yeah, how can we shift that?

Leighann Lovely 03:27

Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about yourself, you know, where, where? Where is this message developed? And, you know, tell me, you know, a little bit more about your passions. So,

Betsy Clark 03:38

I've been an entrepreneur for over 43 years, I started when I was four. And I bought a business when I was 23 years old, I bought a franchise in an industry that didn't really exist at the time. And it was called weight loss. And so you can tell I'm older than dirt, and this was in the 70s. And so I was a diet coach. And then I left that business because I sold my business because I got pregnant realized I couldn't work at the level I was working at with little infants. And then my husband and I went into interior design. We did specialty wall finishes and wood finishes. So I became a color coach. So you're starting to hear that there are some commonalities, and I've been an athlete and an athletic coach. So I had an accident, and I realized I couldn't do Interior Design anymore and be on scaffold that was two storeys high. And I walked away from the family business and I didn't know what I was going to do. I thought, wow, I have to reinvent myself. Well, I have learned since then we don't reinvent ourselves. We reinvest in ourselves, and it's just another chapter in a way that's authentic to who we are and So my friend and I were walking and I said, you know, I don't really know what I want to do. I'm not sure what this next chapter is. And she said, Okay, and this is the power of a powerful question. She said, Betsy, what's your favorite nickname? Well, I got the Rolodex going, Okay, it's sugar blossom. It's honey, pot pie. It's all but no, it's none of those words, what's my favorite nickname? My favorite nickname is coach. And she said, well, then yeah, you're gonna be a coach. And it was that simple. It was that simple. So my whole life, I've been a coach, and I needed a community and someone to reflect back to me, this is how you show up, this is who you be. And that's why I'm so passionate about what I do. We were never designed to do life alone. We need each other. And so that's what I am, I am a support to women in business. And I'm the queen of perspective giving. And so that's who I am and what I do.

Leighann Lovely 06:01

That's awesome. And, know it's, you know, I've talked to so many people throughout this, you know, this journey of podcasting. And the one thing that is consistent through every time I've, you know, talked with somebody on, you know, what was the a pivotal moment, or what was the, you know, this or that, how did you decide, and it's, it's never Oh, I was sitting alone, and I was staring at this, it's always, I had a conversation with something, somebody, and they made a suggestion, or they had a comment, or they it's, it's never, I was, you know, alone. It's always, nope, it is never, and it's, it's consistent through every single person I have spoken with. And it is 100% true to exactly what you just said, we don't go it alone. And even when you decided what you wanted to do, yes, it was your decision. You know, we it's everything is ultimately comes down to your, you know, your choice in the directions that you go in this and that, but it always comes from a conversation, or a suggestion, or a simple, you know, communication. And often it comes from, you know, an organic conversation over coffee, or over a glass of wine or over food or. And that's, that is just, it's so amazing, amazing. And that's the reason that coaches are so powerful for so many of us, because being able to sit down with somebody and say, Okay, I have all of these ideas swirling through my head, or I want to do something, but I just can't figure it out. Somebody like you, who is now what I think it's for 12 years now you have been that what the the founder, the coach of coach to strengths. Yes. And that is what you, you help you help people do that you help them love a lot. So tell me a little bit more about specifically as to how that all started in the world when of when it began.

Betsy Clark 08:13

And it began. So to go back to your point about we've never done it alone. It is Brene Brown has this great quote, We are hard wired for connection. And I love that I think that speaks to what you're talking about. We have to do life in community and coming out of this pandemic and being isolated, has really gotten people. I think some of us have lost our social chops and our community chops. And we are so anxious to get back into community and to be meeting belly to belly face to face. And so I think that's an important piece that speaks to why I do what I do. I I am the youngest of four. I come from a very close knit family and all that sort of stuff. And I guess I was the youngest everybody else was so much more advanced. And I was always comparing myself to everybody else, which is a setup. Because they were older, they were more mature, they had more skills. But I really held myself back because I was subjected to the mind monkeys that were telling me I wasn't enough. I never measure up. You're just like all that negative self talk. And so when you see someone who is a coach and you see them pick their modality, they're really telling you a lot about themselves because the journey I have been on has been since I was 16 years old. You know who in their right mind. Read Psycho Cybernetics at age 16. Well, I did because I knew that it all began with my mind you So I pitched myself as a mindset chaplain to thinking, What the heck is a mindset chaplain? What? What is that? Right? Did that poke? Did that go through your head? Like, what you talking about?

Leighann Lovely 10:13

Yes, yes, absolutely. And in your in your bio, you know, I kind of introduced you as, mindset chaplain, I believe. And it's, yes, I want to dive into what what is that?

Betsy Clark 10:28

Okay, so here's what I love is marrying the head to the heart, so that you're integrated so that you follow your heart and use your head. And you trust your gut. Because that's integrated, that's you showing up in an integrated fashion not divided, you have clarity, because you understand what your strengths are, what your values are, what your purpose is, what your mission is, you know, those kinds of things. So how do we marry all those things? Because some of us, you know, all we do is we live in our head. Or we're all heart. And we can't think or self out of a paper or wet paper bag, right? And other people wearing debt. What's that? Isn't that just below my stomach? Any mic? We're disconnected, but think about can you imagine if you had all three of those playing well together?

Leighann Lovely 11:28

Right? I mean, you're absolutely. If you're only leading with your heart, you're, not going to be able to logically put things together. If you're only leading with your head, you're going to lose the empathy, you're going to lose the. And I think that a lot of businesses, that's what they're lacking, right? Right, the empathy piece, it's, it's becomes too logical. And everybody in the business then becomes a number. Right? You have to have you have to have a mix of of, I'm sorry, the third one. They've got the guts. And I guess that's the one that's that's the one that I struggle a little bit with here. So

Betsy Clark 12:19

yeah, well, okay, so here, here's the thing is I lost my thought about that. Why have you had me? Well, what are you struggling with? You know, here's the thing is that God is your intuition. Right. One of the reasons I became a Gallup certified strengths coach was, I was afraid that I was going to be too squishy. Because when I started as a coach 15 years ago, took me a couple of years to get my chops up to start a business. Everything was so squishy, and there wasn't the certification. There weren't any guidelines that we had to follow. And it's like, what are you doing? You're just selling air? And so yeah, that would be great. I get all these people that follow their heart, but how do you get it actionable? How do you how do you deliver on that? And so I wanted something that was backed by science. And so this assessment looks at what your strengths are, what's right with you? Because because I came from a place of living in comparison, I could tell you there is a list this one of what was wrong with me, because I never measured up to anybody else. But no one ever sat me down and said Pat's you know, you know, you're really strong in in strategic you. You've got this Rolodex going in your head, you come up with options, with your hands tied behind your back. But here's the dilemma. Again, here's the thing is, because I think this way, I make a huge assumption that you think that way to where we are right? Yes. Yes, we all think everybody thinks the way we do. That's why we have goat rodeos when we miscommunicate because we think we don't you think that way? What do you mean, you don't understand me?

Leighann Lovely 14:14

This is every fight that I've ever had with my husband. I'm like, wait, what do you what do you mean, you weren't thinking the same way? I was thinking and he's going, What are you talking about? And I'm like, Oh, right. This is human nature.

Betsy Clark 14:26

Right! Bingo.

Leighann Lovely 14:28

But we're all wired completely different.

Betsy Clark 14:31

I mean, like one in 11 million has the same strengths. lineup that I do, like one in 11 million. Are you kidding me? No wondering miscommunicate all the time. I'm making assumptions. There's something called a suicide. Ca with that, right? When we make assumptions and we kill communication, we kill community. We kill connection because I guess You know what I mean? And then I continue the conversation. And I think what's wrong with Leanne? Which she Oh, well, you know, all that stuff. I'm assuming things that aren't accurate.

Leighann Lovely 15:10

And how do you fix this? How do you go into a conference? So you and I are sitting down and we're talking about something and I am making this as... What did you call it?

Betsy Clark 15:20

Assumicide? Assumicide kills intimacy? It kills intimacy.

Leighann Lovely 15:24

Right. So you and I are sitting down, we're having a conversation, I am assuming this assumicide, I'm creating a assumicide. Am I using that properly? Okay.

Betsy Clark 15:33

Yep. Yep.

Leighann Lovely 15:35

How do you at what point do you sit back and go, Wait a second. I need to clarify. I mean, is how do you how do you fix it? Because, again, at what point in my brain Am I gonna go wait a second? I don't think she's getting it.

Betsy Clark 15:52

It's a perfect time to say, Wait a second. That's trusting your gut, my friend. Yes. That's trusting your gut. Okay. What are you discerning what? What is your gut telling you? Something's not not jiving here, right. And so then you stop and ask, wait, am I communicating when I think I'm communicating? Tell me what you heard me say. Because I have a sense that we're not, we're not on the same wavelength here. See, that's why I love strengths. Because if I got 10 backs for every time, one of my clients over the last 1214 years is said, that's a wait, doesn't everybody think that way? And I, I get to be the one that says no, they don't see, here's, here's an example. My I'm high in strategic, my husband is high in context, or I'm high in activator. So I'm like an action girl. I jumped in, I think, then I, then I Oh, huh. How do I get here? My husband? I'm like, I'm a I'm a jack rabbit. Right? My husband is high in context. And he is he has to look at the history of the past, he has to check in where he is in the future. And right now, and what does that mean for the future? Right. So he does this timeline. So we slow as molasses. So we're in the midst of getting wood floors in our living room? Well, I had this great idea four years ago, let's put wood floors in the living room. Well, he had to think about it. And his first reaction was no baths, we can't do that. So I finally, you know, after I'd gone through my strength training became a certified coach. I said, Why are you always saying no to me? Do you not trust me? And he said, Wait, what? Why would you ask me that? And I said, because every time I ask you something, your first reaction is no. So I went through the Gallup training, I understood what context meant versus activator. Here's the way we changed it. Now I say, you know, I'm considering this, I'm considering getting wood floors in our living room. And it's going to probably cost X amount of dollars. And I think the reason we should do this, because we have grandbabies, and we don't want them to be on gross carpet, right? Why don't you consider that and then get back to me. Interesting. I gotta tell you, now, that's the way I get anything to move a little bit faster, and have his buy in, I'm not manipulating its buy in. And I shared this story from stage and this woman came up and she said, that's the most offensive thing I've ever heard. Oh, boy, what did you said you manipulated your husband? I said, No. Well, maybe I did. Let me ask him. So I called I, I just worked with them. I worked with his context and how he thinks, and I said, Archie, did you feel manipulated? He said, No, I felt known.

Leighann Lovely 19:12

And I've I've heard so I believe that everybody needs to one way or another be managed. My whole life. My Dad has figured out how do I manage my daughter, right? My daughter has bipolar disorder. She understands and sees the world different. Now, I knowingly at this point in my life. I'm 41 years old, I was diagnosed at 20 years old. I knowingly understand that there are certain situations in my past that I remember wrong. I don't remember that. I don't remember them right now. I remember them. And I submit to the fact that I was a healthy brain experience. mincing situation. And now I have an unhealthy memory of that situation. Correct. So my dad and I have openly had conversations with Leanne, I've, I figured out how to manage you appropriately to get you to do what needed to be done while you were still in a very unhealthy situation. Correct. That was that there was not manipulation happening. There was not, it was a management of how can I get her to a place of health, right? So let's suggest things that she needs to do knowing that if I tell her she has to do it, she'll have a negative reaction. People manage people all the time. I think in the same situation, you've you figured out your husband's style, and you're not manipulating you're in a way of managing his personality type. And in turn, I'm sure that he manages yours because my husband, I'm a jackrabbit, my husband says, Hey, I think that we need to do this. And I go, okay, and I go do it. And he goes, I didn't mean that you needed to do it now. And I'm like, oh, oh, why not do it. Now I have time. Like, if it needs to be done, I'm an action orientated person. That's period. And I know, it is a great thing to be when you are a salesperson that needs to get, you know, sales happening, right? It is a very bad thing to be when you are a wife, to a husband, who is the opposite. Because it drives him insane. And I and I love him to death. But I know that I drive him crazy in certain aspects. Now, on the flip side of that, I'll say to him, the fan in the bathroom is broken. And it takes a couple of weeks for that fan to be replaced. For me, I'm like, Oh, the fan is broken. Okay, let me run to Menards I'll get a new one and replace it. That's not how he works. Because it's just it's just not his brain. You know, if I, when I hear something, I go, okay, needs to be done needs to be read. But sometimes it's to the detriment, right? Right. My daughter needs attention right now she wants to play and I'm, I'm on the mission of, oh, I need to go fix this. I need to go fix this. And my husband is going, what do you do? Go play with your daughter? Oh, right. Yeah, of course, I'm in the middle of doing something else. So he manages me where he won't tell me that something needs to be done. He'll tell me when he knows that I have time to do it. Because he knows that the minute I know. I go do it. Now. Is that manipulation?

Betsy Clark 22:56

I don't think so.

Leighann Lovely 22:58

No, I don't I do not think that it is manipulation. Anyway, manipulation would be when I think of manipulation, I think that it's something that you're doing, get someone to do something that they otherwise would not do.

Betsy Clark 23:12

Right? Right, for your gain

Leighann Lovely 23:15

For your gain, Correct. But when you understand the strengths and other people's personality, or the weaknesses, and other people's personalities, it's okay to help them either plan those strengths, or be better at those weaknesses, right?

Betsy Clark 23:35

Or, to delegate. What is not in their strong suit. See that, to me is where teamwork, and we're getting back to how we started this conversation. So if you look at your top five strengths, and they're like a star right here, your top five strengths, and I got mine, instead of trying to be a well rounded individual, because we've been told we need to be a well rounded individual. What happens is we, you know, like we're always defensive, and we're kind of like in this posture, because we're not doing stuff Well, right. But what happens if you're five strengths, and my five strings really work in concert, we come like this, like cogs of a wheel, and we move a bigger thing, and you're shining in your brilliance and I'm shining in my brilliance, we can move a much bigger thing than trying to squeeze the life out of something and squeeze a flow out of it because we should be able to do this. And I'm so sick and tired of women shitting all over themselves. I should do this. I should do that. You know what? Delegate it, right? Delegate it. Use your strengths and what your area of genius and brilliance is. And make the money and make the end pack that you can there because when I start, you know, squeezing down the life force of everything I do, I'm blocking a blessing. Because there's someone like I, my assistant, she loves doing my books, she loves my numbers, she loves the little, you know, dotting the I's and crossing the t's. I say, God love you go do it, girl. Good. Anya, I need that because I need to be coaching, I need to be writing, I need to be out speaking, not doing those things that I'm not fashion for. I understand my business, I understand what my numbers are. I haven't abdicated understanding or control of those things. But I don't focus on them. Because my strengths are very different than her strengths. Does that make sense to you?

Leighann Lovely 25:55

Absolutely. And it's something went off in my head, something that my dad said to me, and I refer to my debt, my dad was my greatest is my greatest mentor that I have ever had my hero really, and will forever be brilliant businessman ran an office of 60 agents in the real estate industry for 6040, you know, went up and down for for many, you know, 40 years. And one of the things that he said to me was you don't have to be great at everything, you just have to be smart enough to hire somebody who could or can be great at doing what you're not good at. And I'm like, oh, okay, well, if I ever own my own business, or I ever get to a point where I need somebody, you know, and that's something that I think a lot of business owners, or a lot of small business owners don't realize that once you get to that thresholds, you know, you can delegate it out, you don't have to hold it all close to the chest that if you want to be able to level up, there's that point at which you have to let go. Or you're never going to grow. Right. Right. So It completely makes sense. You know, play to your strengths. And again, this also comes back to if you are really strong at something, do we do we should we be out there working on our weaknesses? Or should we just play to our strengths?

Betsy Clark 27:20

Oh I got an answer for that, when so. So here's the thing. When we are working on our strengths, it's counterintuitive. I feel like we manage our strengths to go back and use your word. But when we try and fix our weaknesses, we get into that fixing mentality. And the truth of the matter is, in my humble opinion, the only thing that needs to be fixed are stray cats and dogs, people do not need to be fixed.

Leighann Lovely 27:50

And that really goes and falls in line with what I've grown up thinking which is play to your strengths.

Betsy Clark 27:58

Right and, and so here's the thing is there's there's a continuum of your strengths, you can be immature in your strengths, and you can be very mature. And so I show my clients what that can look like. So if you use a scale of one to 10, and the tipping point would be 5.6. If you use that, that measure, you check in and you say okay, I'm high and strategic, am I so over strategic that I'm getting into, you know, paralysis, analysis, paralysis, and I'm strategizing too much I'm not acting, that would be strategic. That's probably immature and you know, not disciplined. So, teaching my clients what that spectrum looks like, you can check in and say, Oh, on a scale of one to 10 strategic is running the show, and she's running it at about a 3.5. How do I take it from a 3.5 and move that to a 5.6. So I get to the tipping point. So strategic is really a beautiful strength and I can leverage the credit out of it to get the results that we longed for. So I'm not saying that your strengths are going to be the end all there's going to be a variation in that but what I do is I teach people to look at their top five strengths like an amplifier, you know, I don't know if you remember stereos and amplifiers and turntables and all that sort of stuff. I'm dating myself that shows you how old I am.

Leighann Lovely 29:38

No, no, you right now in the other room in my house. I have all of that equipment, my husbands a DJ.

Betsy Clark 29:48

okay, but you get it. Okay. So think about that. There are five knobs on that amplifier. If you think about that as being your strengths, amplifier. It amplifies your strengths, right? So that it's juicy goodness coming out of you, right. But your your husband being a DJ doesn't just blast everything up to a tan. It's nuanced. You have to, you know, you have to adjust for the song for the environment for the occasion for whatever mean, it's not everything like Spinal Tap the movie that mockumentary everything's in 11. But it's dialing. So if I'm going in, and I'm going to make a report to board members, I'm going to nuance my strengths differently than if I'm going out to a happy hour with my girlfriends. Right? Right. So we're not just a one trick pony that just comes with everything to attend. It's learning the nuances and how to leverage yourself and be to be effective, and to be integrated. That makes sense to you.

Leighann Lovely 31:02

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's wild. I was having a conversation with somebody, actually, earlier today. And he asked me, he said to me, what do you think about people being promoted? And then failing? So somebody, for instance, and the conversation kind of went like this, a sales professional or a producer, who is just outstanding in their role, and then being promoted and failing? And why is that happening? And you know, my answer was, well, often we find our greatest strengths, and we enter into that field. And people see, you know, and I'm speaking from a salespersons point of view, and people see that, wow, they are so great at selling awesome at selling. But then somebody assumes that because they're so great at it, they would have the ability to train or teach or lead. But that's an assumption, based on the fact that they're capable of doing it doesn't necessarily mean that they're capable of leading or training or showing others. Right. Right. So I guess, you know, my follow up to that is how, how do we identify the strengths in those individuals? How do you identify the leaders?

Betsy Clark 32:31

So So I think that there are two separate things going on here, you there's the Strengths Assessment, and I would advocate that you work with a coach because it just it's a report on a piece of paper, how many times I've heard people say, Oh, I took that StrengthsFinder thing. And if they got it all wrong? Well, it's because you don't understand the meaning of the words and the training that goes with it to excavate the, the juicy goodness within the report. But there's another thing and and I'm reading a great book, it's called trust and inspire by Stephen Covey. And he supports what gallops training is on being a leader worth following. And that's really what I teach in my inner circle is I teach women how to be a leader worth following. Because here's the deal. Just because you self proclaim yourself a leader doesn't mean you're a leader. And it doesn't mean you're a good leader. Because in order to be a leader, you need to have followers, right. And most of us don't have followers. So here's the way I look at this as if it's you, our understanding of ourselves and how we think impacts every aspect of our life. So if you don't really understand what your superpowers are, and what your strengths are, you're just kind of grabbing it saying, Oh, well, that, that sounds good. We don't internalize it and saying, Hmm, how's that going to impact me? And can I be effective in that? So I worked with clients and I have them just sort of that that inner itch of inadequacy and not enoughness. We just settle that and we talk about, you know, when access your inner swagger all what you bring to the table and understand what you need in order for you to be sustainable, and to be effective going forward. So we kind of get that your your itchiness about, am I or am I not out of the equation that settled? But then we talk about what are the things your followers need? Because, you know, here's the deal. Our leaders have been in control and command and they intimidate they yell, they tell us what to do all that sort of stuff. And we need a new kind of leader now And research shows that we need to have four pillars when we lead and it's about our Our followers, we need trust. We need compassion, we need hope. And we need stability. And this is research way before the pandemic. And if we ever needed those four attributes and characteristics, we need them now. And, and to inspire people to step into their potential trust is so necessary for us to innovate. Because how we do business now is very different from how we did business even three years ago. And so I am on a mission to help women step up into leadership, and to be authentic, really good leader just gonna say something else. Really good leaders and all their leadership. I mean, here's the thing is I, I have these Grace cards, which I will make available if anybody wants them. But it's how to leave power with grace, or leaves with grace. I mean, grace is a very big thing. It is so winsome and compelling. And it lets people we know, know that they are seen, they are known and they are heard, we need grace. More than anything business, we need grace and leadership. And the time is now and can you tell I'm starting to sweat over here, I'm getting excited.

Leighann Lovely 36:29

Oh, it's hands down, absolutely, we need, it's never been more important for people to feel like they've been heard, feel like they've been seen. And for people to actually go into a company and feel like they are not a number feel like they are appreciated. I don't understand how companies don't get that if you could create an environment in which you go to work, employees feel empowered, they feel like they are part of something greater than just walking in and creating a widget, it doesn't have to be glamorous, if you more than ever, people want a purpose. And it doesn't. For some, it doesn't matter what that purpose looks like, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if their purpose is making. Like I said, widgets, if they feel like that purpose is making that company great. And making you know, the organization do well. And they feel that love coming from the top down. And they see the actual managers and they see the higher ups walking around and telling them thank you for doing a great job, that company is going to be the one that actually flourishes, they're not going to have the turnover rate that, you know, some of these organizations out there, and they're not going to be coming to me going man, why can't we keep people on the floor? Um, you know, and I feel sometimes like, like, I want to hit him over the head and be like, Why do you think you have? There are some companies out there where I will mention it to a candidate and they'll go, oh, I don't want to work there. And I'm like, why? Well, in our industry that is known as being the worst place to work, I would never go and work there. And I want to go to that company and be like, Do you Do you know what your reputation is? I mean, do you have any idea what your reputation is. And as a as a company, if you get that reputation, and everybody who is in your industry knows you as the shittiest place to work, you're done. You're never going to be able to employ great people, you're going to get the bottom of the barrel, and it's going to take forever for you to dig out of that. You at that point become you're at risk of, of never bouncing back. It What do they say? It takes one bad review, to spread like wildfire. You know, everybody loves to like the bad reviews. You could you could destroy your reputation and not have enough employees working at your organization. If you continue to treat your people like shit. Yes, but if you go when you start treating your people great, and everybody's talking about oh, yeah, I love working there. It's it's an awesome place. Does it spread as fast? No, it does not. Because again, like I said, everybody loves to spread crappy news for some reason. Yeah. But you become the place that everybody wants to work at. And you continue to keep that reputation going because you're treating your people great. You're you're going to have a happy, healthy workforce that doesn't want to go anywhere. And you're going to do great in this marketplace. I just as somebody who has been in the industry as long as I have been in the industry, in staffing and in HR, I don't understand why, you know, companies don't get that, especially the smaller, you know, midsize organizations, it's like, Come on, get your shit together, and start treating them like and I know paying the highest wages, and I'm going on a complete and total rant. But this is this is where my passion is, start treating your people, you may not be able to pay the highest wages, but start paying your your people the best you can offer some, you know, insurance, and if you can't afford insurance, then offer them you know, a little stipend, there are new plans out there where you can put you know, it's like an HSA. Except it's not I can't remember what it's called. But I learned about it just recently, where they you know, you can give them money towards an insurance plan, have outings, again, get togethers, have the upper management, and this is extremely important. Upper management needs to be there, they need to walk the floor, they need to talk to their employees, they need to show their face. Because those employees who are working floor who are doing the most important thing for your company, which is making your products, right, they pretty much look at you as the guy who's driving the you know, the really expensive car in the parking lot, that doesn't give a shit about you. Right. And if you're not present, that's what they think about you.

Betsy Clark 41:21

Well, and so I think that goes back to the four pillars they need, your employees need to trust you. They need to know that you have compassion. You know what? My kid got COVID in I can't come to work for a week. Okay, let we're going to work around this. I mean, I know that there are boundaries and their policies and procedures and all that stuff. There has to be compassion, you know, maybe you create a meal train for that employee for a week. I mean, what does it cost you? Not much, and what it returns the return on that investment is priceless. What about, you know, stability, you know that you're gonna have a job when you come back? What about hope it's painting, things are gonna get better in the future. And you can trust that. I mean, at the end of the day, we're talking about culture. And we're talking about how to inspire, okay, the Latin root of that means to breathe life into. So walking the floor, and knowing the people on the floors name that breathes life into them, and it gives them hope it gives them purpose, it gets to Hey, I know why I'm doing this. Because the head guy knows that my kid just had COVID. And he was the one that or he was the one who okayed the meal train. I mean, like, I know, this sounds really stupid. And, and that's what you're missing the point. But these are the kinds of things that change the culture that bring people to work every day with a benefit mindset, instead of a negative mindset that, that one bad apple can ruin a whole department. When you have a benefit mindset. It's a win win. mindset. Everybody wins. Right? And that's how you make any impact.

Leighann Lovely 43:23

Yeah, absolutely. And I have, I've walked into amazing companies that I mean, you walk in, and they have state of the art that they have a professional chef that cooks lunch every single day for their employees. And that's included, it's free. You walk into an org, and this was a small company, I'm not talking about like a monster company I'm talking about this is not a really large and I'm like, seriously, I'm gonna come work here. It was like professionally made meal fresh every day. And it's in it's paid for and the employees can come in, they get their meal, they but there are different ways that you can show your appreciation, investing back in your business in small ways investing actually, in your people. Again, I don't know how many times I can say it, and how many times you can say it, I can say until I'm blue in the face. The greatest asset in any company is your people, your people. And time and time again, I see companies who are cutting every corner, cutting every expense when it comes to their employees. I'm like what do you what are you doing? You're shooting yourself in the foot that wheeling you or you're making it so that your your company cannot produce or cannot get the the product out the door, which means that you're going to have to have people working overtime, you're going to burn out your current staff and they're gonna leave

Betsy Clark 44:49

87% of the people who leave their job, leave because they can't work with their manager.

Leighann Lovely 44:57

Right. And that's it Leadership Training, put your employees through leadership training, put your son into a coach. So this is all circling back to what you do and what more companies absolutely need. Because you're right, you're absolutely right. And you know what there I have left companies, not because I did not adore the company, the upper management, I've had great relationships that. But when it came to my direct manager, I had no choice I had to go. And and even though I stayed beyond my time, and I tried to work and I tried to make it work, it came down to, there was one bad apple, one bad manager that just made made my life miserable, or made the lives of other people miserable. And the fact that a lot of companies don't even do exit interviews anymore. You're not even attempting to fix it.

Betsy Clark 46:01

Right? You're so but here, this, this whole thing, what we're talking about is trust. It's trust, right? You know, Stephen Covey did another book, The Speed of Trust, and when trust is high, costs go down, and efficiency goes up, when trust is low, costs go up and production goes down. And the truth of the matter is, the teams that have to always be talking about trust, are the teams that don't have trust, if you're on a team that, that they you trust each other, and you have open communication without a suicide. They don't talk about trust, because they got it. They they flow in it. And it's juicy, and it's great. But trust, trust changes everything, everything,

Leighann Lovely 46:55

Absolutely human connection, trust, comfort. If you have an environment where somebody can walk in and say, you know, I need to talk to you I'm, and again, you're not going to have this conversation with a manager you don't trust, I'm struggling, I, you know, have this going on at home, my daughter needs this or my husband needs or I need this, you trust your manager, you're gonna be able to have an open honest conversation about what's going on with you. And you're not going to you're not going to be ashamed about that. Otherwise, if you don't, you're just going to call in and say I'm sick. I mean,

Betsy Clark 47:30

and and if, if I can, you know if you can help me work remotely, while my kid has COVID, right, you trust me to get my stuff done in a timely fashion. But if you're micromanaging, and you're controlling, and you're commanding people leave, but how can we do the trust and inspire? How can we create an environment where we can have that connection, and we can breathe life into one another? Because it's a two way street. You inspire me when you meet our quotas? Thank you, you make me look good. I'm so grateful. We're meeting our quota and beyond. Right. And the employee is going Thanks for trusting me and knowing that I can work remotely with my kid who's got COVID Thank you, that inspires me, I will work harder for you, in the days, the months, the years ahead. Because I know you've got my back,

Leighann Lovely 48:29

you know, and it's interesting that you say that, because I I've talked to many people who are like, well, you know, I don't I want to have a remote. I want to offer remote. But I don't think that people are working as many hours. I don't think that, you know, I want them to be on site so that I can monitor the hours that they're working.

Betsy Clark 48:48

Micromanage.

Leighann Lovely 48:50

RIght, Right! But statistically, and I don't have the statistics, and it's been a long time since I read them. And statistics showed that people were working more hours and harder from a remote role than they were on site. And the reason the reasoning behind that was they eliminated their commute time. They eliminated you know, all of that stuff in the middle. So they were able to get to their desk earlier because now they're not sitting in the car for you know, at what I would say that the average commute time is anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes. So now they're not sitting in the car, they've got that much less time away from their family, because you're not really working an eight hour day if you're adding in all the commute time. Right? I mean, you're actually away from your family for a minimum of of nine to 10 hours, or I should say away from your home. Because you commuting

Betsy Clark 49:50

Well, and the other piece is you know, I am unemployable. Let's just face it, I really am. And you know when I worked in a large organization I had to keep my door closed because I was in a leadership position. A good part of the time, people would just come by, you know, and they'd go to the coffee and they'd have a cup of coffee. And they weren't even on my team. And they just stand in the doorway and kvetch, and I'm going, Oh, please, are you kidding me. And it isn't that I don't want to be friendly. But when I have a deadline, I want to be able to get her done. And so what's happening is when you're working remotely, you don't have as many distractions and meetings and the minutia that, you know, being on site can in and there's the flip side, we do need connection, I get that, right. But how do we marry those two things so that it supports efficiency and effectiveness? And so I think that there's, there's a place for both and how do we weave those things together? So that we're accomplishing what we set out to

Leighann Lovely 50:57

Right, my partner in my day job works in California, I talked to her constantly, we have teams, when I have a question for her, I can either message her on teams, or I can just video call her and be like, hey, it's, it's like she has an office next to me. Right? It's there is a constant line of communication. Is it the same as being in person? Absolutely not. Do we need in person connection and communication? Absolutely. Yeah. But we have we have discovered over the pandemic, that communication does not necessarily have to happen in person, you can be you can work from anywhere and be just as productive. Now, I know that people like the and again, I when we started going back into person and having in person meetings again, I was thrilled because I am a extrovert through and through. And Betsy, I know that when you started being able to go out and do speaking engagements and all that I'm sure that you were probably over the moon right away, get back out there. I was, but again, I am I am 100% An advocate of the remote or hybrid, you know, environment because it has opened the door for so many people to have the ability to be or have a work life balance. Now I also I don't know. Have you ever heard of the show alone? No. Okay. So it's this show a new reality TV my husband and I watched for I think he still watches that they drop these like, major like rip like survivalist people like hardcore survivalists in the middle of nowhere. And they're by themselves, they have basically nothing, they have to make shelter for themselves. And these are harsh territories. They have to make shelter for themselves. They have to find food for themselves and blah, blah, blah. But that's not even the hard part for them. They are dropped in complete isolation. Oh, complete isolation from the human world. And the majority of these people. It's it's not so much the hard work because they're all hardcore survivalists. Many of them, the first thing that happens is, they go practically crazy because they can't talk to anybody. Yeah, there are we as humans, going back to how we started this, we thrive. We need human connection. Yeah. It is. It is the way that we were designed. It is a trait it is a it's in our DNA. Yeah. But there are so many different ways that we can have that human connection.

Betsy Clark 53:52

Right. So what was your takeaway on this call? Wow.

Leighann Lovely 53:56

So much.

Betsy Clark 53:58

Sorry, I'm a coach. I just I know,

Leighann Lovely 54:00

I don't even know where to begin. You know, there's a lot that we talked about that is really reconfirmed many of the things that my Dad who obviously I mentioned earlier is, you know, had said to me over and over, but there are a lot of things that that just kind of blew my mind. I would love to see you speak I I'm very interested in the modality

Betsy Clark 54:29

of strength Strength Finders,

Leighann Lovely 54:30

Yes, that is widely in the four pillars that you had talked about. But I'm also really interested in the kaleidoscope in your headshots.

Betsy Clark 54:40

Can I Can Can I take a few minutes to just explain that? Yes, please. Okay, so here's the kaleidoscope. So being a mindset chaplain, it all begins and ends in our mindset, right? So I want you to play with me and I want you to pretend you're looking Through the kaleidoscope, and I want you to take a snapshot of the image of the color and the light and the symmetry and all of that, this beautiful design. And then I want you to take the N piece and turn it a quarter turn to the left. So what happens?

Leighann Lovely 55:18

It changes

Betsy Clark 55:21

The picture changes right? Okay, so I want you to play with me. So now, I want you to go back a quarter turn in the opposite direction and get that same picture.

Leighann Lovely 55:33

It's not going to happen.

Betsy Clark 55:35

Well you can't do it. So here's what's so fun is when you have a shift, the whole picture changes. And you can't go back. And that's the power of working with someone who will guide you in shifting your mindset so that you change your beliefs. Because here's the deal. You would never what year were you born?

Leighann Lovely 56:02

1981.

Betsy Clark 56:04

Okay, you would never use a computer from 1989, would you?

Leighann Lovely 56:13

Betsy Clark 56:15

It's laughable. But you know what, Leighann? That's exactly what we're doing. We're using an outdated operating system. Because we're going back to how we were conditioned. And all of those things about comparison, I talked about that with you. It takes with like, we're wet cement, right? They ever seen the sidewalk of wet cement? Yeah. And something comes in makes a deep impression. And that's what our mindset is when we're between five and eight or nine. And it can take a lifetime to fill those deep impressions that are lasting that former worldview. And we fill them with the right things. And so if I were using an operating system from when I was five or six, I would think I was the dumbest person on the face of the planet. Because that's all I ever heard is pecha. You're so stupid. And boy, are you ever sensitive? Well, the truth of the matter is, those are my strengths, I'm really high in empathy. And that's one of my superpowers into I upgraded the operating system. And I'm using a paradigm that serves me that's accurate, that's updated, so that I can go out and do what only I was designed to do. So that you can go out in the fullness of your Lian Ness, and go out and make an impact because you've upgraded your operating system by a very simple process of shifting your perspective. Now, once you've done that, you can't go back. And that, my friend, is why your mindset matters.

Leighann Lovely 57:58

That's awesome. And we all we all need to do that. Yes, especially now, especially now. And that in that plays truly into the reason that I have started. The reason I originally started this podcast, so many people out there have had to hide their true identity in fear. So many people, and I'm not just talking about people, some, many of my longtime listeners are gonna go, Oh, she's talking about mental health. I'm not just talking about the mental health aspect. No, I'm talking about people who have children, people who have, you know, things going on at home who were taking care of loved ones. For so long. They, you know, people thought that they had to walk into work and leave all of that crap at the door in order to keep their job. That should not be that way. We shouldn't have to become a different person. When we walk into our jobs. We all have baggage, we all have a life outside of work. And we should be able to work with people who understand that because they have it to you maybe the 20 year old or the 23 year old who's free, you know, right now live in in the free world didn't, doesn't have to deal with all of the stuff. Of course, right now, unfortunately, half the world is suffering from social anxiety because we all shut down for a million years. So they probably understand just as well as the rest of us that we all have it. We have to stop, we have to stop expecting the employees to leave it all at the door. We should all be able to be our authentic selves. And we have to have a mind reset, we have to have a shift and the way that we think of people. We are not just numbers. We are human with a lot of human emotions and all of the mumble jumble and baggage and emotions and stuff that comes with it and I'll stop there because I like to go On rants

Betsy Clark 1:00:00

well, it I think that's why those four pillars matter, right trust, compassion, stability and hope. We need to bring that here. So here's something that I would I, you haven't asked me, but I'm just going to offer this and you can edit it out if you don't want me to say this. But I have these Grace cards. And I would love to offer this as a free gift to your listeners. And because grace is, this card is about giving yourself permission to love, accept, and forgive yourself. And to have these in your bathroom or on your computer. It's just so powerful, because here's video forgiveness. And the best definition I know about forgiveness is letting go of the past you wish you'd had. So how can we forgive ourselves, accept ourselves and love ourselves? It's by showing ourselves grace. And when we come from that solid, grounded Place of Grace, we can extend it to others. And I think that's one of the aspects that makes us a leader worth following.

Leighann Lovely 1:01:10

That's awesome. And how would somebody go about reaching out to you to get one of those,

Betsy Clark 1:01:15

I am going to give you the link, so they can go to my website. And they can order them and give me their snail mail address that old thing. And I will put these in an envelope myself, and send a little note of encouragement and send you these as a gift. Because I know that sometimes it can be really hard. And we all need grace.

Leighann Lovely 1:01:41

Excellent. Now we're coming to time, but I want to ask you the question of the season before I release you. So the question of the season is if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or your career path. When would that be and why?

Betsy Clark 1:02:02

Well, I worked with my husband and my family for 35 years. And I really enjoyed that. I told you I had an accident and had to leave working with as an artist. I went, I told you I got certified as a Gallup strength coach, and the guy that trained me, saw me. And he reflected back to me how my strengths would have shown up as we explored and excavated, what strength meant. And as I walked out of there, I said Kurt, that was better than $20,000 worth of psychotherapy. Because I see me the way I was designed. And it's authentic. It's true. It gives me permission to grow and to learn, so that I can make the impact that it's it's my it's it's my spiritual DNA that I am to be an encourager, I am to be a purveyor of active hope. An act of hope isn't sitting on your couch, twiddling your thumbs waiting for your ship to come in. Hope is saying, You know what, I know, there's a future that's out there. That's good. It's juicy. And it's mine for the taking. I just need to get up off the couch and go get her done. Because the acronym for hope for me is having an optimistic perspective, every day, having an optimistic perspective, every day, because you see, the picture changed. And I see that I am capable of a lot. Because someone breathed life into me, they inspired me to be my best. And that's what I want for my clients. For the women who don't know what the next step is. I'd love to have that conversation with them. And I think that having grace is one of the things that will make a difference.

Leighann Lovely 1:04:09

That's amazing. And, wow, that's amazing.

Betsy Clark 1:04:13

So I would invite people to go to my website, it's Coach, two strengths.com. And it's coach with the number two and strengths, plural, make sure you spell strengths the right way. And you can go and you can see all the different things that you can get as free opt ins or if you feel like you would like to have a conversation with me complimentary just, you know, ask questions and see if if you're primed to take the step to leverage your brilliance and to be that leader worth following.

Leighann Lovely 1:04:50

I mean, I'm going to have your you'll be able to find how to reach out to you on the show notes. So if anybody wants to, you know, find you there there'll be able to click a link to you directly to your website. Betsy thank you. Thank you so much for having this conversation. It has been awesome. Just like the first conversation that we had, and I'm sure other conversations will come in the future because you're just, you are just a bright shining star and I just really enjoyed. Really enjoyed this. So thank you.

Betsy Clark 1:05:22

Thank you so much. It's been a joy. I told you we'd have fun.

Leighann Lovely 1:05:25

Absolutely. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Website - www.coach2strengths.com

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/betsyclark55

Grace Cards - https://www.coach2strengths.com/grace-card/

Complimentary Connection Call -coach2strengths.com/connectcallwithbetsy

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Have you ever dreamed of becoming a cashier, this guest started out with this dream. However, she quickly realized that her path did not end there. She was destined for so much more, her path was not straight but it was amazing, unique, and not finished.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely so let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us, and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:05

Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. It's just it's exciting to talk with you today. Because we've met through, you know, somebody else that, we both know. So thank you so much for being here.

Jamie White 01:21

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be a part of this. And I love what you have to offer. And I'm so excited to be on board.

Leighann Lovely 01:30

So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Jamie White 01:36

Yeah, so my name is Jamie white. And commonly in work, I go by my middle name, which is actually Cinderella. And so anybody that I work with, currently has known me as Cinderella. So if you hear me refer to myself that way. That's why Currently, I am the general manager for antique op, which is a brand that has storage, as well as antique stores throughout Wisconsin. But I actually got that set up through meeting Jaime and Kevin, that is also Jaime white. So we differentiate with my middle name being Cinderella and her being Jaime, they really kind of set me on this amazing career path between coaching and management.

Leighann Lovely 02:26

Kevin has actually come on my podcast. And he made an introduction, for you and I. And it was really funny when he made that introduction, because he said, I would like to introduce you to Jamie White. Not not that Jamie. And yeah, and I was like, wait, what do you mean up? And he introduced the two of us. So tell me a little bit about how you met Jamie and Kevin White of the white group. And Kevin now of, you know, he has a podcast, business addicts. But how How did you meet them? And how did that relationship evolve?

Jamie White 02:59

Yeah, so it was during 2020, I had kind of left my somewhat career at the time. And I got this email asking for a nanny, I used to nanny all the time. And I had left that career path on long time prior, I got to speaking with Jamie and originally wasn't anticipating leading into that realm at all. But we found that we had so much in common that it just felt like a complete perfect fit. So I ended up nanning for them for a little bit in the process. I I found coaching. So they are actual coaches, life coaches. And at the time, I didn't realize what I was getting into. I didn't know anything about coaching and never heard about it before. And I hadn't yet worked through quite a bit of my traumatic background. And so in the process of being the nanny, Jamie was coaching me and I didn't know it was coaching at the time. And all I knew was we were working like I was working through things. And she was asking me all these great questions that led me to think in a deeper way. And in Kevin, I got to know him a couple months down the line because he wasn't as home as often as she was, and ended up just really having so much respect for the both of them. And the differences that they bring to coaching and leadership and teaching others how to grow in themselves and to develop who that it is that they've been made into being. Rather than trying to force you into a mold or a box. It's very, very much Who are you and what are your skills? What do you bring to the table and let's develop you and what you're interested in. And so that was game changing and lifestyle Changing and now I've been blessed to kind of partner with them with their coaching crew, which is believed grew. As well as Jaime kind of giving me my start in management and HR

Leighann Lovely 05:15

That is completely amazing. And to start out as a nanny, and for her to take an interest in you, and not just take an interest in you, but to see that there was something so much deeper happening within you that she was able to start pulling that out of you and be able to help you level up.

Jamie White 05:38

Yeah, absolutely. She actually fired me from being the nanny. She told me after a while she she could sense that I was getting antsy, or you had taken like a side job for H&R block. And I was working working as a receptionist in the evenings. And they quickly offered me management as I was just the part time receptionist. And I realized like I wanted that, but I wasn't sure that I wanted it there per se. But I had this yearning for something more. And so she ended up firing me. When they offered me management, she said, that's what you're meant for more than this, this isn't your role. So you have a choice, you can either be my housekeeper, and she knows that I absolutely hate cleaning. You could manage for me at antique up because at the time she was running these companies or you could find a position elsewhere. But you cannot be my nanny anymore. That and that was great.

Leighann Lovely 06:39

Right? So throught now you had mentioned you had gone through some trauma. And she helped you, you work through that. So

Jamie White 06:52

yeah, she absolutely did.

Leighann Lovely 06:54

Are you open to talking about?

Jamie White 06:56

About that? Yes, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 06:59

So tell me a little bit about that, and how that has helped, you know what that looked like and how that has helped shape who you are?

Jamie White 07:09

Yeah, absolutely it's a long story. So I'll try to condense it rather than it being being the whole thing. If you want to check out more of the details. Kevin's podcast actually has like the full testimony. But basically, I was born into severe abuse. My biological father was a diagnosed sociopath. And he was extremely abusive to my mother, and manipulative and gaslighting and trying to kill her and kill us. And so we ended up going to hiding and changing our names, changing all of our identities. When I was about 11, we went into hiding, and that it was like two completely separate lives happened. So we had to before and we didn't access those memories, those were done. And then we had the current, which was just survival. And we didn't talk about the past, we didn't talk about kind of what we were feeling. There wasn't therapy, it wasn't safe to talk to anybody. So it was all of this bottling up. And so it wasn't even safe to, you know, tell people, we were domestic violence victims, because then that could create a link to being found. So as a teenager, as I'm going through all these things, I repressed so many things that I didn't know how to feel, I didn't know how to have hope or have a future. The only thing I could think of was the day to day just get through today. There was no, there was no career that I could have. There was no thought process because it was survival based. And that began to change. After I had my daughter. I knew that I didn't want to be in that path anymore. But I didn't know how to get out either. When you've had your whole family is wrapped up in this. And it's a very real threat. But it's also it also can keep you stuck depends on having wisdom in that situation. And when when is it the right time to move on? And when is it safer to stay. And so that was an interesting transition period, because I was 19 when I had her and had moved away completely from everyone that I ever knew, to start over, have a kind of get a new identity, change everything. Learn who I was as an adult, who I was as a person who I was as a mom, all of those things kind of came into play. My self esteem was so low. And I felt like I had nothing to offer that the only thing I could ever imagine being good enough to do was to work at Kwik Trip that wasn't My dream job at the time was to be a cashier at Kwik Trip. It's very interesting because I ended up becoming a cashier at Kwik Trip. And I really enjoyed the culture and the atmosphere and some of the things that they provided. But they ended up kind of catapulted me into wanting more, which was very nice. After all, the trauma after the repression, the lies, the not being able to figure out who I was, it left's a lot of identity issues. It left a lot of esteem issues, the left issues and relationships that left issues in careers, I couldn't have friends, because people weren't safe. I couldn't be honest. And if you can't be honest and vulnerable, you can't trust anybody. You can't have anybody in your life. And so that was that was probably the hardest thing to unlearn. When you've had your entire life be one way to unlearn that is actually quite painful, because you feel this fear on letting go. Because it's not safe to do otherwise. So it's a lot of mental shifting there.

Leighann Lovely 11:11

Right? Well, and something you just said, is unlearned. Wow, that's such a such a huge statement, right now isn't the entire world, all of management, trying to unlearn the bad habits that we have?

Jamie White 11:27

Absolutely. Management has been driven by this abusive culture, this fear based culture. You know, management has been taught that if they don't get their employees in line, then they have to worry about their job. And so they ruled by fear, because their, their whole position is based in fear and control. And it's not supposed to be I don't think that's how, in any way, it's not good. But if you look at, you know, statistically or psychologically, what that actually does is it ends up creating a toxic culture that people want to leave. Versus if you have a loving culture where you trust that your employees are going to do well, you trust people, you trust your customers? And what does that look like? You have to actually learn to like the people that you work with and develop them. And that's a different challenge than fear.

Leighann Lovely 12:17

Wow! I didn't mean to diminish what you the story that you just told, but what you just said was, that was very profound, to have to unlearn. And I don't know that there are words to say. I mean, the story that you just told is, is unbelievable, to grow up in that environment, to be one, the age that you were in fully aware of what was happening, to have had 11 years in an environment that was obviously very horrific. And now to be a woman who has clearly come out the other side, and very healthy and happy and doing well is it's it's amazing. It's it's should show so many people out there that you and others are very capable of moving past, the traumas that we that we all not that we all have experienced. But that we that we experience in life that some of us have had to endure in in life. So your dream job you mentioned was Kwik Trip. So yeah, and you did you went and worked at Kwik Trip? And you then said you realize that you wanted more because of that? What was the trigger of? Wow, I can do this. I want more. And where did you go from there?

Jamie White 13:44

Yeah, so I ended up transferring stores. So I was originally in Stevens Point and a quick trip there. And then I moved to rapids. And I got a new store and I wasn't sure how to handle that environment. It was very different atmosphere culturally workwise. And was really challenging. It didn't feel healthy. And even the the way that Kwik Trip works is the amount of labor hours that you are allotted is by how much fast or like hot food you sell. So you could have tons of customers every day, but it's determined by how much fast food you sell through Kwik Trip. And if you have a community that's more health conscious or maybe older, you don't sell as much hot food so then you don't have as much labor. We had a really bad shortage, because that was that was just the criteria that they looked at staffing. And we and I knew that we needed to up our hot food sales basically. We were also having a lot of issues with Drive offs. We have a culture here that is there's a lot of crime unfortunately, in this small town. So you know there's a lot of drove off. There's a lot of people who were kind of cheating the system, I guess. And so marketing wise some things have just come naturally to me, which is you make someone feel seen you make them feel wanted and welcome, a they're more likely to buy from you. But if there is theft, they're more likely it's more likely to deter them and create that connection of they've seen me they've seen me as a person. So it was during there was a huge lottery surge. And I think it was like over a billion dollars or something like that, where we just had lines all day long. For maybe it was powerful. And we didn't really have enough staff for it. We weren't prepared for this nonsense and lines all wrapped around the store. And I just needed something, some positivity to infuse the day because all of my coworkers were kind of done, the customers were done. So we have to announce, when they're, you know, when someone comes to the pump, you have to say we see you come inside. And normally it's a quick, you know, Hi, Pam five, we'll see inside. And I was I just came up with this idea of almost being like a showmanship, we're like, over the top ridiculous. So I was like, welcome pump five, we are so happy to see you today. Come on inside, we've got our pizza on sale for only 4.99. And it was over the top, it was ridiculous. And it made everybody happy. And we sold more pizzas or whatever it was that was on sale that day than we had on other, you know, sale days. And I loved it. I loved getting to see the people over in the pumps, just laughing and smiling. Like it was the greatest thing ever. And just that extra oomph of customer service really drove me, we ended up getting a new store leader after that, who she was more by the book. And she decided that she didn't like that turn of events, and she wanted it to go back to how it was, and for the kind of the direction to be somewhere else. And we just didn't see eye to eye on it. And I realized that for me, customer service, and marketing, and management, all rights totally together. When you make your customers feel loved. You give your employees opportunities to take on a project that they're passionate about, and it grows the company. That's what you should be encouraging. If it's growing the employees, if it's growing the customers, if they're developing themselves and developing the company, it should be encouraged. And it gives the employees ownership of something and makes them feel valued. And like they bring something to this company, I realized that that is the culture that I wanted to be a part of. And that's what I wanted to create. And I couldn't do it from a place of being a cashier. Somebody would always be making the rules above me the path to management, incorrect trim, you can do it. But it takes time, they want to see you do the cashier and then move your way out. And I'm not I wasn't interested in waiting that long. So I decided to start my own company after that point. I started that for a little while. And then I realized that, you know, while that direction that I was in wasn't the direction I wanted to be in long term. I was designed for management to lead others to develop a business and accompany by developing the people. And there's, you know, the quote that I love is that employees should be the company's biggest fans. And if they're not, you're doing something wrong, and you really need to take a hard look at management at your company. Are you acting with integrity, if you have a company that a brings value to something, you're fulfilling a need, you're making something better, you're improving it, because that's why we're in business, right? We're nobody gets into business to do something mediocre, you're supposed to be passionate about. It's something that you want to do. And so that's the first tool is having a company that you know is worth value to people. And then having if your employees don't love your company, it's a sure sign that you've got something going on in management, because you're not valuing them as people if you value them as people, and they believe in the philosophy of the company. They'll go forever with you. They will love their experience. If you leave them with. You're just a body. You're just here to be a robot and do what I want. Your company may grow to a degree but it will never flourish. Because the culture is toxic. You're going to have turnover you're going to have employees who don't speak highly of you, your your employees, if treated well, are your best marketing asset. You shouldn't treat them well just because of that, but you should also look at it logically, if you treat them well, if you honor them, they're going to care about you and want to create this amazing company that flourishes because then they also flourish.

Leighann Lovely 20:23

And Kwik Trip is, is known for creating amazing environments. So you, you had a peek under the curtain? Unfortunately, not every single location runs the same. And yeah, there's always going to be changing conflict, you know, at different locations here and there. But you had you had a true, you know, and I say this because I also have a mother who is in management at Kwik Trip. So you had a peek under the curtain at a very young age of what awesome culture looks like, Oh, absolutely. Many of us, especially those of us who are on the older scale, we went to work and it was your, you know, come do your job, go home. And it wasn't so much designed around, making your employees happy. So much as I mean, it wasn't make your employees unhappy. It was more, you're here to do a job. Do the job. Go home?

Jamie White 21:22

Yep, it was very one sided. Correct. And

Leighann Lovely 21:25

nowadays, people are demanding more, and I say demanding on purpose. People finally are saying, I'm not my grandfather. I'm not the person who is going to be a number show up, do my job. Go home, I want to enjoy what I do. I want to have a purpose. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Jamie White 21:53

No, there really isn't. In fact, I think that every single person should always view it that way. They should say, What do I want? What am I passionate about? Where do I put value in? Find out what their career is you shouldn't have to go to work and just think I'm doing this just for a paycheck. Right? You should have passionate about it.

Leighann Lovely 22:11

Right. And, I love the fact that you said my goal. You know, at a younger age, my goal was just to be a cashier at Kwik Trip, because that's there is somebody out there to do every job. Because people say, Well, if everybody's purpose is to be this or that, and I say But not everybody's purpose is to be the owner of a company, some people's purpose is to go in, run a machine and do the best they can possibly do. And go home.

Jamie White 22:43

Yeah, they love it. And I love how different people are we have, you know, on each of my stores, we have five to 10 workers, and it depends on what role you are in what you end up doing. And I have some I have this one young lady who's worked for me for almost a year. She's amazing. She does her job. Well. She enjoys her job. She enjoys the culture. She's very personable. And she's, you know, one of our customer service people at the front desk. So she's cashier, she does all that. And she's taken it and she's owned it. Because I love management and leadership. I of course was like, Oh, you must want this. And she was like, No, I don't at all. I love what I'm doing right here. It made me pause and I'm like, wow, like this is not for everybody. And each person has their own things that they're like I love this. We have like our cleaning lady is so excited to come and clean. She feels that she's got ownership. She takes her job. She does it amazingly. She's one of the hardest workers I've ever seen. I could not do that job. I am not geared for it. I would go crazy. I would. When Jamie offered the cleaning position for her. I said absolutely not. You couldn't pay me enough to do it. Right. But then you have someone else who it doesn't matter that right. You know, it's cleaning. She loves it. She's good at it. She's passionate about it. So that's what you need.

Leighann Lovely 24:17

Right? I have a friend who I remember we were talking and I said well, you know, and this was early on in our friendship. She I didn't know what she did for a living and she says, Well, you know, I clean houses. And I'm like, Okay, there's nothing wrong with that. She goes, I love it. She was I wouldn't do anything else. I love going into other people's homes, and making it look beautiful and making it look perfect. Now here's the thing about me. I have an issue with hair. If I have to clean out like the drain in somebody else's bathtub, but I'm sorry, right, exactly. Oh, God, like run away. I can't do it again. touch it. I can't look at it. I can't. That would that right there. Okay, if I empty the bag of some, you know of somebody's vacuum cleaner. I'm sorry. Like, I have really bad gag reflex. And I just, I remember when I was when I was working at a small staffing company, and they're like, yep, everybody, you know rotates on on helping up cleaning. Again, they didn't have a cleaning lady everybody pitched in fine. But when I had to clean out the vacuum cleaner, I was like, Oh, God, I have to close my eyes. I can't even I can't even look at this. I even bothers me with my own home. Okay. Like, there's there's just certain I can clean a toilet all day. Fine. put my gloves on clean. I just can't. But there are people out there who like I love going into somebody's home, making it look perfect. They come home and they're like, Wow, it looks beautiful in here. They call me and they're like, Hey, you did such a great job today. That's their passion. They love it. And so my friends, like, yeah, I run I have my own business I have. I have the same clients, you know, that call me. And I go it every two weeks, or I go every week. And I you know, it's great. And I'm like, awesome. That's, that's amazing. Like, why would I think any less of you because you clean homes, like, I hate to do much more. Right? I would love to hire somebody to come and clean my home right now I can't fit it in my budget.

Jamie White 26:29

I actually so I don't have much for hobbies. I love work. And that's about it. Like that's what I just enjoy doing. And so I decided, I absolutely hate cleaning. I am not a homemaker in any shape, or form. But I have a six year old. So in my budget, I don't care how poor I am. Once a month, I set aside, like $100 for somebody to come and clean for a few hours. And it has been the most freeing thing ever. Because I'm like it's not. I'm not a bad mom or a bad woman because I don't like doing it. It's just not who God has made me to be but someone else. It's a blessing for them. The money is a blessing to and it's worth it for both of us, right? Hey,

Leighann Lovely 27:13

I know that I could fit it into my budget if it was a priority. But it's your priority. Right? It's right now. I've got other priorities and everybody's working thing. And my husband is perfectly fine with you know, emptying the vacuum bag for me. So there's the trade off, I take care of. I take care of the dishes, I do all of the you know, and he's like, Oh, I'll do that job. Okay, great. We've We've compromised here. But Right, right. Again, so sorry, getting back to where we were. Yeah, you're good. Something that you said that. Um, you and I talked about this before. And I wrote it down the last time we talked because you said that employees should be the company's biggest fan. And that is hands down the greatest, most important thing to any business. If you if you have a workforce that hates coming to their job, that hates doing their job, the number one most horrifying thing that any business can have employees who leave and then go and tell their friends. Oh, I hate working here. I hate that is it? So it only takes one negative review to destroy the company's reputation. Yeah, it's coming from somebody who actually works at your company. Think about how powerful that is?

Jamie White 28:47

Yep, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 28:48

I mean, I don't understand why more employers and why more owners don't get that?

Jamie White 28:58

Well, I think for a lot of the time before social media had the prevalence it did. You know, it was a lot harder for Word to get out if you were a bad employer, and you didn't have as many options and it was kind of like, Okay, this one's terrible, but what else is there? And so that culture could be pervasive. It could be, you know, it was normal. Whereas now, you know, we've got canceled culture where if someone steps out of line to a degree, that's how you dehumanize someone or you did something that was wrong, like, now, all it takes is is one horrible thing happening in your company and it can be destroyed. And we shouldn't ever have a company where we're in fear of being destroyed. But we should always look at our actions and say, Are we treating somebody to the best of our ability? And, you know, circling back to Kwik Trip, their motto is basically, do you want to others as you would do to yourself and, you know, treat people as you want to be treated and make a difference and they will lives by your actions and your attitudes. That's kind of I really took that and said, Okay, this is my personal mission, right? How am I going to treat every single person I come into contact with. And even if I fail, because we're human, it's if that's your motto, you are going to care about them, you're going to treat them well. It's not going to be about the bottom line, which is for so long companies, that's all it was about was just the bottom line, not the real priority of a business, which is to improve the lives of your customers. And in the process, your employees. I know Smuckers used to have this this viewpoint of, and I don't know if they do now, because I haven't looked into it recently. But their viewpoint was that we would take first take care of our employees, because if we take care of our employees, they can take care of our customers. And rather than it being okay, the customers, you know, always come first, we are your company is made up of people. And those people have their own needs and their own life problems. And if you say, if you don't do what we want, you're fired, or you can't get sick, or you can't take time off and you can't have a life, what you're gonna find is your company is going to end up worthless to people. Right? And that's what matters.

Leighann Lovely 31:20

Companies need to start treating their employees, like customers here. Yes, they do. I mean, yes. Because and here's coming from a staffing perspective. I can I can tell you, that it when somebody comes to me, and they say, We just can't hire anybody, we just can't get anybody in the door. We. So the first thing I do is I go out and I start talking to people who are in their industry. It is really, really quick. It doesn't take me long, it doesn't take a long time at all, for me to figure out the reason they can't hire anybody, especially because I will talk to people who are in the industry. And some of these industries are very small. And I will hear from other employees that oh, yeah, I don't want to work there. Well, why don't you want to work here? Oh, I hear it's a horrible place to work. They they they turn people out all the time. I would never go work there. Oh, yep. And it's like, and once that, once that reputation starts, it is extremely difficult to get rid of it. Because it really is. It's that that just keeps going through and through and through and through and through. Even if they spend a whole time at money time trying to change that culture, it is going to stay with them for a very long time. Yeah, and right, as somebody who's in the industry, there are a handful of companies that I can list right now. And I'm obviously I'm not going to, but that I could list and say yep, the reason that this company spits people out, and people and they have such a hard time hiring is because they have a reputation for being a horrible place to work.

Jamie White 33:13

I know I've had companies that I've worked for that, that I saw things done with lack of integrity. So even when I was offered a promotion, or this amazing dream job, the reality was the culture didn't have the air of integrity that I require. And you're finding that employees or potential employees are a lot more picky today. I've had. So I've had quite an extensive hiring experience since I took over in management. And the one thing that always sticks out to me is even if I don't go with someone like this, I do a lot of interviews. I've gotten multiple people, every single time that I have a hiring session, say this has been the best interview of my life. Because you saw me as a person, like you're treating me as a person. And they're like, it makes me want to work for you more and even if I don't get this position, thank you for how you just treated me and then that's your interview process. From the from the time you start interviewing somebody to the time that you that somebody ends with your company. All of that shows who you are as a person and shows what your company represents. If you treat them badly in the interview your say you're a number what what do you bring to the table? Why would I want you rather than saying who are you as a person? How do you fit like, is this something you want to do? Is this something you're passionate about? And seeing do you guys mesh? Well, it's made most interviews are made with this air of you're here to fit me and rather than Who are you Let me get to know you. Okay, if you're a good fit, let's continue this. Because you also want to think about what your employees want what your potential employees want. If you have somebody who, let's say they say they want to be a cashier, and they apply for a position with me, but they hate people. I don't care what their extensive experiences if they tell me Yeah, I really hate people. And I actually really like tech. And this is where I'm drawn to. And I'm like, alright, that's awesome. And amazing, you would probably dislike this position, and you would be upset with it long term, because it's not who you are. Let's see if we can find you something in tech, or, you know, I have the time I make suggestions to them. Like, you know, I don't think that this is going to be the right fit, because what we're looking for as a people person, but over here, they're hiring. And your skill set who you are, would probably really fit them really well.

Leighann Lovely 35:57

Do you want to work for me? Want to come be a recruiter or, you know, a consultant, you

Jamie White 36:04

know, I've done consulting for people.

Leighann Lovely 36:08

I mean, because that's, the conversation I have with with candidates all the time when they're like, Yeah, I would really like to do this. And I'm like, Yeah, but you are saying that you don't like any of the job duties? Yeah, but I really need a job. Okay,

Jamie White 36:22

Right. And the employees have learned that they have to sell themselves and pretend to be whatever you want in order to get something. But that's this, this abusive mindset, honestly, that you even see in abusive relationships, right? That it's you need to conform to who I am, rather than be yourself in, even in my interviews, so when we talk about wages, employees, or potential employees come to me, and, you know, we advertise how much we are hiring for. And I've got people who are like, well, you know, that's, that's a little low, but I could do it. And I'm like, because I always ask them, How do you feel about the wage? Or what are you looking for? And almost every time they will tell me that they're okay with the wage that set, even if they're clearly not okay with it, right, even if they need more, and I tell each one of them, I'm like you like, Okay, I'll take you at your word. But I'm going to tell you for future reference, if you are actually wanting something, you need to come into an interview and saying, this is actually how much I want. And if it's if they can't do it, or it's not the right fit for you, then then that's not somewhere you want to work. But if you go in saying I'm going to accept whatever you give me, it's setting yourself up for an abusive employer employee relationship. It's not healthy. I'm like, even if you said, You know what, I actually really want 11 That's exactly what I'm looking for. Or I want, you know, 11 is too low. I really need 12. And here's my experience, and I'm worth it. Right, you know, whatever the case is, yep.

Leighann Lovely 37:56

People are always afraid that. And I have the obviously in the field that I'm in I'm, I always ask, what do you what do you want? What do you need? And what would be awesome if you got paid? And then? Oh, absolutely. That's an interesting question. Because I need to know, I need a if this position is paying $20 an hour, can you survive on that? Well, yeah. Would you be comfortable in that? No. Okay, so let's talk about the real number. Let's talk about the number where you're not, you know, pinching pennies and wondering if you're going to be able to make ends meet, right? Exactly, exactly. Where you're going to be able to occasionally go out to dinner, or go out and hang out with friends and not be going live on your salary. Correct? Exactly. I, you know, I again, because if you hire somebody at that, they're going to constantly be looking at the next possible opportunity. And they are, right. So I always ask, what are you? What are you? What is your, you know, what can you survive on? What do you want to make? What would be so awesome if you got? And, I mean, that's the conversation. I no longer ask people, What do you want to make? Because, well,

Jamie White 39:11

They don't know, we didn't have the confidence for they think that they're going to be rejected if they have standards, correct. And so even when I when I know without a doubt, somebody will not be able to work for me. I say, you know, this was an amazing interview, and I'm gonna tell you straight up you need to value yourself more. Yep, your next interview, nobody's going to be offended if you say this is what I want to make. This is what I need to make. If you're willing to settle for less don't tell them

Leighann Lovely 39:37

no, don't tell you know, never tell anybody. Well, I really want this I mean, but you know, if you offer me this, I'll take it.

Jamie White 39:47

Why? Like you just under sold your entire cell. But what employees are starting to realize that there are so many jobs out there jobs that perhaps they weren't they didn't used to have access to or that have better benefits or whatever, they have the ability now to be picky. But a lot of times, the people that come to me are younger, in their work history, they don't know they don't yet have a lot of confidence are developing as people. I've told every single one of them, you need to ask for more, right? You need to stay because what I want,

Leighann Lovely 40:19

so I don't work with a lot of very young people, but I just I'm working on hiring a nanny a very part time like a baby, right? So I asked, you know, the nanny, how much do you How much do you need an hour? And the conversation was very weird, because I'm not used to dealing with somebody who is 2019 years old. And it was what I don't really like this conversation was the way it started with what she said to me. And I'm like, Okay, well, what do you want to make?

Jamie White 40:52

Right? Well, a lot of times, they think that you're going to tell them what you can make.

Leighann Lovely 40:56

And so, you know, she went on to say, well, you know, I previously made this, you know, I would like to make it and I finally said Don't sell yourself short, just tell me the dollar amount that you want, and I will pay you. And eventually, eventually it came to okay, you used to make this I'll give you $1 More an hour, okay, like,

Jamie White 41:17

right? No, I totally get it. Actually, Kevin. And I just had this conversation because I'm doing consulting for for the escape rooms that are that they have, and like hiring and training and managing certain aspects of it. And he's like, Well, how much do you want to make for this? And I'm like, and I do exactly what I tell everybody not to do. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I guess this must be fine. And he's like, No, that's ridiculous. That's, it's ridiculous like this? And I'm like, Well, no, no, that's what I make now. And he's like, No, and here you go. And he gave me this number that I'm like, You know what, actually, I feel like, that's fair. But because I had low confidence in it. I was like, willing to undersell myself, and I would have been upset, actually long term if I was willing to settle for that. So I always tell my employees to ask, right, the worst thing I can say is, you know, we can't do that. But we could do this. Right.

Leighann Lovely 42:14

And that's what I tell every, you know, you know, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of my candidates who, and this is a rarity. Normally I negotiate on their behalf when I'm placing, you know, a candidate for them, but one of my clients prefers to negotiate directly with a direct their direct hires, which is fine, because they are doing a direct hire there. They just pay us basically for the search, setting up the interview. And then once they go into we want to offer, they prefer to do all of the negotiation from there on out, okay, that's fine. makes my job easier. But the candidate calls me and says, Well, I would like to negotiate. And I said, okay, and he goes, Can we walk through how I do this? Absolutely. Let's talk it over. You know, so I, you know, I go over everything. And I'm like, and the last thing I said was, if they say no, are you still going to take the job? Yes. He says, Okay, great. So, with that in mind, by asking for all of these things that you you want, just remember that the worst thing that can possibly happen is they say no, and you still have a job. And he was like, oh, yeah, right. I mean, there's there's no. And it's, of course, there are situations where if somebody comes back and is asking for, you know, a ridiculous amount more and is not being appropriate in the way they're doing it, they can always rescind the offer. But this is not a case in which, you know, he wasn't asking for anything. Outrageous. He wasn't being you know, right. Yeah, it was pretty, a pretty straightforward standard, like, Hey, can I have, you know, a little bit of additional vacation? Can we, you know, meet in the middle here and all pretty basic things. Yep. And it comes down to the worst thing that can possibly happen is they say no, and either you choose not to accept a job, or you choose to still accept the job, and you have a job, or you walk away from a job that you can't take because they weren't willing to give you enough money to survive. And exactly, I think people forget that people. People think, Oh, I'm going to be rejected.

Jamie White 44:28

That's absolutely what it is.

Leighann Lovely 44:29

Right, the fear of rejection is, I think the greatest fear that that people have of oh my gosh, they're going to reject me.

Jamie White 44:39

Yeah, it I totally agree. I mean, I see this. So when I'm coaching women, in relationships, we see the same thing. Your relationship with your employer, your relationship with a partner, very similar in this is they're driven by fear of rejection, so they're willing to accept whatever you want when they realize that They actually have more value than they were under selling them, they get upset at the employer that took them at their word, and said, Okay, this was the terms that you agreed to. And so I encourage each one of our employees or potential employees, in our interview, to say, what do you value? Who are you? Like, I don't focus a lot of times on work, like I might ask your work history and whatever. But most the time, it's okay, who are you? What are you passionate about? What? What do you bring to the table? What's your favorite thing about yourself? The most amazing thing is that is a hardest question for people to answer. And what they will always answer what they want to improve on, they will always give you that answer, because they're so used to selling themselves short. Right? And so I try to encourage each one of our employees, each one of the people that come in, as you are amazing, this is who you are, this might not be a right fit, but it doesn't mean you're redacted. It means that you are valued somewhere else, that you bring something to the table that no one else does. We just don't have the position for it. But here you go, here's what you should do,

Leighann Lovely 46:04

right? Like, we could talk for hours about all of this, this is the stuff that like gets me going and I'm like, Yes, I'm so tired of people selling them sell shorts and women in particular. Oh, absolutely. There's still that fear around Well, women not being treated equally or not being accepted, there's still that fear. And I want to, I'm sure like you because I have a daughter, you have a daughter, I want to make sure that by the time my daughter enters the workforce that there is never, ever that fear of Well, I'm not going to be looked at as good as my male peers, or my male counterpart is. Yeah, and I preach that constantly is Don't sell yourself short. You if you write the skills, if you have the, the experience to back it up, there is nothing wrong for asking what you're worth.

Jamie White 46:57

I totally agree. I think that what I see a lot when I hired a man or I have an interview with a man, a lot of times they're not afraid to ask for more. I've actually never had a woman tell me that she needed to make more, unless she'd been in the workforce for a long time. Like someone who was like 30 years, my senior, she was like, I need this much to make a living. I was like, unfortunately, that's out of our budget, I think that you're worth it. But the position that we have just wouldn't work for that, right. But men are typically they just come in and say, I'd like to make this much. If you like eight out of 10 times, if you just say, this is how much I'd like to make. And you're just calm with it, you're probably gonna get it. I mean, not if it's not outrageous. If it's $1 or two more, you're there's a good chance you'll get it. If it's $5. More, not for this position. But other positions. Yes, I find that men don't have as much of a fear around saying this is what I'd like to make, right? versus women who are like, they want to be liked. And they want to be seen as valuable, but they don't yet see themselves as valuable a lot of times, right, not when it comes to romance, but

Leighann Lovely 48:07

it's that imposter syndrome that that we see. Yeah, I mean, I struggle with that. Sometimes I still there are still times that I struggle with that, you know, where I'm like, if if I get up in front of these people, if I give this presentation, are they going to find value in what I'm saying? Are they going to? Am I really the expert in this? As time has gone by and more people are like, Wow, you're really knowledgeable in this? And I'm like I am? Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, I

Jamie White 48:37

Yeah. Why do we need validation? Before that? Why do we need somebody to say yes, you're good at things when we when we actually know it. That's why you're doing what you're doing when you're bringing such a valuable light to this topic. And you know what you're talking about? Well, why do we need somebody else to say it, it's because we've been so conditioned for so long to say our value is in other people. And I tried to shift that viewpoint. I'm like, You guys are amazing. And I'm gonna affirm you all day long. But you have to understand that it doesn't matter what I think about you, it doesn't matter. What do you think about you? Where do you want to be thinking about yourself? Yep. And how to get there?

Leighann Lovely 49:16

Yep. Well, you are clearly not only a great manager, but the way that you talk and we didn't even get to talk about your coaching side, but we are coming to time. And clearly you're great at that. Because and everything that you're talking about, I mean, I can tell that you're just the way that you're coaching the individuals that you're interviewing. I mean, these are just, these are things that you can't, you can't teach these are things that are inherent, inherent and in life experiences, through whatever traumas through whatever triumphs through whatever, you know, things that we have gone through, start to really shine and you know, come out And it's it's clear that you have that. And it's it's amazing. I like I said, I could talk to you for another two hours. But right, before we end, I do have the question of the season. Yes. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path, when would that be and why? I would

Jamie White 50:22

say, it was actually being fired by Jamie. I love that way. It was I mean, she, she literally told me, she was firing me. She's also my life coach. So she's like, I wouldn't be a good life coach, or a good boss, if I kept you on. But it was, and she was serious. She was like, You got one week to decide. And that's it, you're done. And I knew that I needed to do it. But I wasn't yet taking ownership of the fact that it was okay for me to move on. And okay for me to not want to settle. I'd also been offered this other position. And I was interviewing with them as well. And I was like, I've never turned down a job before. That is not ideal for me. There just wasn't exactly what I wanted. And so it was this really freeing moment of I am fired as a nanny, so I can't stay there, no matter what I have to make a change, do I want to go and stay in that realm? Or do I want to actually take what I think that I'm passionate about. And it was this forced choice of, I have the choice to leave behind the mindset that I've had, and leave behind this poverty mentality. And actually step into something that where I make a lot more, which is scary, because when you're in that poverty line, you know, if you make a certain amount, all the programs are cut out from underneath of you. And that was what it was, I was faced with this decision of am I going to leave behind poverty, which I don't know how to do, nobody in my family is left behind poverty. And I get to have a career, nobody in my family has a career. And it was at that moment that I had a choice to make. And she coached me in a beautiful way. And Kevin did to Jamie was basically like, No, you would not like this other job that you've been offered, and you know it, and you shouldn't take it. And Kevin was like, No, you can take whatever you feel like the Lord is leading you to, if it's this other job, and you feel that that's where you need to go to further yourself and your own business of coaching, then do it. And I was like having that freedom. And those two different mindsets of it being like it's okay for whichever choice gave me the peace to be able to make the best decision for myself, and to learn my own value. And to the point where, from six months, I was a nanny, to the General Manager. That was nanny manager. And then they offered me they created a general manager position, because of how great I was at this one store, that they wanted me to take the entire brand and do it. And so it was at that that moment of being fired that my entire career path, my entire outlook on employer employee relations totally shifted.

Leighann Lovely 53:10

That is, Wow, that's amazing to have, what it kind of sounds like the devil and the angel on your shoulder and basically, right, but and I know that either one or both of them. Were were talking to you and helping you go make a decision for the best outcome. Yep. So it's not really the devil. It's more

Jamie White 53:32

like, no, they were both supporting me dry different way.

Leighann Lovely 53:35

Right? The the I don't know the angel in the, I'm not sure.

Jamie White 53:38

But it's just the two facets,

Leighann Lovely 53:41

right? You had your gift being given advice from two completely different perspectives in order to make the best decision possible for you. And clearly you have followed the path that was best for you. You were you know, you're doing awesome. And you're right. When you talk about you know, leaving that poverty line, it is a scary leap. And I am not talking necessarily from personal experience. But I have I do have some friends, some people in my circle who have yet to be able to make that leap, because you leave the comfort of knowing that you have all of this assistance, being able to back you up, just in case all of the sudden the health insurance, the whatever government age, you know, AIDS, there's the food stamps that are out there that and I don't know and I don't need to know what

Jamie White 54:45

child care, there's food stamps, there's insurance, there's heat assistance, there's rent assistance, there's welfare, there's so many programs and then you're basically hard it's hard to leave

Leighann Lovely 54:56

right and the government does not put you on a sliding scale. It's I remember, somebody actually ran the numbers for me one day and thought that total package is like 3500. Or even more, that you're basically leaving $3,500 on the on the table and saying, Okay, I can stop taking that money. And I can make up for it somewhere else that is not

Jamie White 55:19

like an arranger career shift. Yeah, to the point that, you know, had this position not come available, had I not been given this manager position, right out of seemingly nowhere, I wouldn't have been able to necessarily easily make that leap. Right. Because it, it's a major change. And it's, it's not a sliding scale. It's okay, you've got this cap, and then you're done. And it's not necessarily enough to make up for it, you have to pass that cap. Right. And it takes a okay, what do I need to do to get there? Right.

Leighann Lovely 55:53

It's an and I've had conversations with other people about, you know, the government needs to change that, because how does somebody leap from how does somebody make that leap? Unless they have the opportunity that was presented? Like yours? And it is not often that somebody gets up that opportunity? But you did?

Jamie White 56:15

No, it isn't. And it is. And I agree, I mean, honestly, when looking at the numbers, basically, because I went from making 16 grand a year, and living off of that for two people to almost double it. And that is what I had to do in order to comfortably live and will survive. And then when I became General Manager kind of changed a little bit. But in order for that, jumps have happened, like you have to make double, right, what you have been making, and it's not, it's really easy to lose those programs. But it's not necessarily easy to gain a job that you could make more at, right? It's possible, and I don't want to in any way discourage people, but it takes looking outside the normal avenues. It takes saying, Okay, what do I need to do, and that's not always College, like a lot of people think it's college, but that's not true. A lot of times, if you find what you're passionate about, you are naturally drawn to something, and you can learn to become an expert in it, and leverage your skills and create value for yourself.

Leighann Lovely 57:22

Right. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard I've heard employers say, to me, they're like, Well, I can't understand why this person won't take this promotion. You know, I'm offering, you know, $2 an hour more, or I'm offering and I'm like, they're not taking it because if they know, $2 an hour more is nothing

Jamie White 57:40

compared to nothing. Enough to kick you off. Right? Right,

Leighann Lovely 57:45

exactly. It's nothing compared to the benefits that they're getting right now. And if they lose those benefits, they will not survive. And employers, they don't they don't quite get it. They don't quite understand that when you are a single mother or when you you know, and you have children to provide for that losing. That is it's it's devastating.

Jamie White 58:08

So it is yeah.

Leighann Lovely 58:11

Yes. All right. So um, thank you so much for coming on. If somebody wanted to reach out to you or connect with you, how would they go about doing that?

Jamie White 58:20

Yeah, so they can always reach out to me at saving destinycoaching@gmail.com, or they can find me on LinkedIn. They can also reach out to me via Facebook, which is our saving Destiny coaching Facebook page that can reach me there. So those are going to be the best options to to get in touch. Well, thank

Leighann Lovely 58:43

you again, Jamie, you are truly a brilliant woman. You've had such a an amazing path to where you are today. And I really appreciate your time.

Jamie White 58:52

Thank you. I really appreciate being here. I love these conversations. And I'm so excited for what the future holds for this.

Leighann Lovely 58:58

Excellent. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

E-mail - Destinycoaching@gmail.com

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/Saving-Destiny-Coaching-101374858886866/

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamie-white-evangelnaturals/

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Not only is this guest my boss, but he's also brilliant, fun, teaches me new things, and has a management style all his own that is not only forward-thinking but creates a place that people want to be a part of.

Leighann Lovely 0:15

Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us, and share us.

Welcome to another episode, I am thrilled that today, I have the opportunity to interview Brian Herczeg with Vaco. It is a rare opportunity that you get to interview your boss. So I'd like to introduce Brian after a short time in local news, Brian spent 13 years helping a small family business, double its client reach and improve its operations since 2013. He has been working with companies in Wisconsin, finding them the talent they need to grow as the managing partner of vaco. In Wisconsin, he has had the opportunity to take his team's surgically effective approach and use it to assist clients in both the Greater Milwaukee and Madison Area. Brian, thank you so much for being here today. I'm really excited. This is a rare opportunity because I actually get to interview my boss. I mean, how could that be? Any more exciting, right. So thanks for being here.

Brian Herczeg 2:09

Thanks for having me, Leanne. And that that introduction was fantastic. I will try not to let you down.

Leighann Lovely 2:16

Perfect, thank you. So you are the managing partner of Vaco in Wisconsin, which stake their flag here not too long ago. Tell me a little bit about that.

Brian Herczeg 2:27

So this is going to be a story of ridiculously horrible time. So I accepted a role to open up this office with Bayko, back in 2019. And I had a years long non compete with my former company. So I couldn't actually open the office or do my job here in Wisconsin. So I basically was, was sitting on the bench for you. So if you picture what happened between 2019 and 2020, we launched this office, just as the entire world was shutting down April of 2020. And I was just Oh, I was praying God, please don't let vaco change their mind about opening this office. Oh, my goodness, what are we going to do, but it ended up it worked out perfectly. vaco never even thought twice about opening up the office, I got to plant the flag here at a really great partner with me to do the recruiting as I tried to make sure clients still remembered who I was after a year. And I guess it taught me Lian and I think people should understand this, play the hand you're dealt, played as well as you can, like, there are no excuses, and then just see what happens. And that's, that's what happened when we planted the flag in April of 2020.

Leighann Lovely 3:41

It's such an amazing story, because I think there were so many of us who are in the same boat of oh my gosh, are our clients gonna remember our customers gonna remember that? You know, at one time we, we did business, right? We did. We all came back strong. And I think that everybody was raring to get back in contact with each other. And now you have you've really built a pretty amazing team. You know, and here I'm boasting about this amazing team. I'm part of it. So of course, I'm going to be biased on this pretty amazing team because I'm, you know, I'm awesome. I'm part of the No Okay, anyways.

Brian Herczeg 4:22

We became awesome.

Leighann Lovely 4:25

Right? Okay, I'm pretty sure you are awesome way before I joined the team, but so you know, how did you I mean, you you obviously have an awesome background. You you started, you know, well, you spent some time in local news and how did you find your path to be at Bayko?

Brian Herczeg 4:45

So the way I found my path was a very rocky bumpy way to find my path. It was not a straight line. Like you alluded to i i graduated from college and I was I was a news reporter. I did the news in small markets. You're in the state of Wisconsin. And then back 22,000 Oh my gosh, it's been 20 years. So back in 2000, I left the news. And I moved back to Phoenix. I worked for my family's business. So I worked for a small business. You work for a small business, Leanne, you were a lot of different hats, you sweep the floors, you sign the checks, whatever you need to do to get get the job done. There, I learned quite a bit, you know, you're working for your family's business, you're in charge of sales, you're in charge of payroll, all of these things. But I also was shielded from from the outside world, because working for my family's business. So I had this false sense of confidence. Leaving my family's business, I thought, nothing could go wrong, simply because nothing had gone wrong. And then I opened up another business. And that that's where I learned the school of hard knocks, where I wasn't destined for success just because I've had so you've constantly got to rethink how you're doing things constantly be learning, and I, I lost that. And so the business that I started, it didn't go well. And so that business closed, and I'm married, I have a baby on the way and a baby already born, I'm looking at my wife thinking, what are we going to do. And I had the opportunity to work for Robert Half here in Wisconsin. And no one wakes up or no one is born saying, Gosh, I want to get into staffing. That doesn't happen. We usually find ourselves drawn to it because we knew people in the business. And that's where I was, I knew somebody, my cousin who was my best friend used to work for Robert Half introduced me to some people there. And it just organically grew. And that's how I ended up finding my way into this business. And thank God, it's been a really good decision. What I learned Leanne is, when you're down, and you failed, success is only a couple of good decisions away, you don't have to have a streak of awesomeness, you just need to take a couple right steps and things will start to go in your direction.

Leighann Lovely 7:16

You said some some pretty profound things in there. It's only a couple of steps away. If you take the right steps. And right now, during what we've experienced, we are seeing so many businesses thrive. And so many businesses fail. Because we are at the threshold of a major cultural shift. And people want more from their, from their employers, they want more from their life. And you have managed to create a culture vaco has managed to create a culture where employees want to be. So that really brings me to my next question. Through your life experience. You have. I mean, I've only been with vaco a short period of time, I've only been working with you for a short period of time. But there has never been an organization or a company that I have joined. And it was almost immediate from the first conversation that you and I had. There was a mutual respect. In that conversation. You there was no arrogance in Hey, I'm interviewing you, and you need to give me this, it was a mutual respect. And hey, this is what we want from our employees. This is what will give to our employees if they're successful. How you know, from your life experience, how have you developed that managerial style, the philosophy that you bring to the company and and and again, how has vaco raised you up to be able to offer that type of culture that you offer to your employees?

Brian Herczeg 9:04

Those are some really good questions. So I'll start with the last one. I do not know it's perfect. So So vaco means to free yourself. It's Latin means to free yourself. And what vaco is looking for, and employees very often are people that play this staffing game the way that the founders of the company played it. And what I mean by that is we don't just say that we value relationships, we actually do value relationships. So I told you when I interviewed you when we talked about working here, I said are you know you're good at your job. I can see it by looking at your resume. I can understand it by talking to you, but you'll earn my trust. When I see you take a deal to preserve a relationship when you back away from a payday because you recognize it's not the right fit on both sides. That's the freedom vaco offers you Yes, we have to put up numbers. Yes, we have to close deals. But if you look at everything on a long continuum, a long timeline, and everything, that timeline is a relationship, transactions happen throughout that timeline, it's not a one thing, and then it's done. If you look at it, like that takes some of the pressure off, and it puts things in perspective. So that's a vehicle elevates, you know, they offer it means to free yourself. And then they mean that. As far as my managerial style, I have a philosophy on life, I have philosophies on multiple things, and I probably bore all of you with quite a bit of them, but it's just managerial style knows, a lot of people say things like, life begins outside your comfort zone. I don't buy that. That doesn't sound like a comfortable life. Life begins for me, in my view, when you can be your authentic self, no matter where you are, at home, at work out with friends, at church, at your kids school, wherever you are, you don't have to remember how to act, you can be you. And so when I'm trying to bring people into my, my work in my office, I recognize that I want to know the person bring their whole selves to work, and realize that my success, and his or her success are intrinsically tied together. So if we're not comfortable in that relationship, it's going to fail, or it's going to end. I want it never to end, I want people to retire with me here. So that's why come with bring your authentic self, try to be yourself wherever you are. That way work doesn't feel like this massive shift from go from being weakened. Lian, to work, Lian. You're the same, it doesn't feel that drastic of a change from Sunday nights to Monday morning. That's important to me. And I hope that answers your question.

Leighann Lovely 11:58

It absolutely does. And it's so you know, and this is something that I obviously, throughout my, throughout the entire time that every time I talk with somebody, I'm always talking about the idea that people are incapable, or I shouldn't say even capable, people shouldn't have to walk into their business, drop their baggage at the door, and then go and do their jobs. And if you ask them to continuously do this every day, eventually they're going to fail, or eventually they are going to suffer from some type of mental health issue or they're, they're just not going to be able to, to function at a high level for a long period of time. It's not sustainable. And I talked about this nonstop. And for me to, to stumble into a role where I have a manager, you know, who has the identical philosophy of being able to be your authentic self all the time. And again, when I first joined, you know, vago and I first I was nervous of, okay, this is what he says he is. Now let's see if it really is, and I came to you and I said, Here's my podcast, I'm gonna launch this and you listened to the my little five minute promo, and I said, Okay, what are your thoughts on this? And you were like, This is awesome. I'm, I'm, I'm so proud of you. And I'm like, wow, you're you are, you're Yeah, okay, great. You're gonna support me on this. And, of course, it's nerve racking for somebody who I lived my entire life, pretending that I didn't have, you know, a mental health disorder, pretending that, and again, I don't think that, you know, I'm a scary person. I don't struggle the way that I used to, you know, but you were 100% onboard and supportive. And I went, Oh, okay. Well, that was easy, that there's no scary bear here. You know, I'm he, he's completely supportive and the entire vaco I've never had anybody go, Oh, should we not have her? I mean, do we want vaco to be attached to somebody who's going to talk about these kinds of things? Yep. There are employers out there who would say, Nope, you can't have these conversations. We don't want to have that attached to our name. What if one of our clients doesn't agree with it? I mean, if you don't like me, don't do business with me. There is plenty of other business out there to be done. And that I think needs to be that that needs to be the way that things are now because people can't pretend to be something they're not. And it's very clear that that you not only say that, that's how you are you stand for that. Have you always had this philosophy? When was that moment where you said So, I'm going to, I'm going to run my office like this.

Brian Herczeg 15:04

Yeah, Leighann knows what I joined Vaco, what I Vaco and I started dating basically six months before I accepted the job who was offered the job. And in the very beginning, I was I was very happy where I was at a great job. I worked for a great company, good people on my team as happy. So when vago first knocked on my door, I didn't, I didn't answer it took a while. But about a month later, they knocked again. And so I responded, and I knew some people who worked here at vago someone very dear to me, heads up the Arizona office. So I called him and asked his advice. And he told me about the opportunity and some of the great opportunities was, and so I still trepidatiously, I went along and started talking to them some more a little more depth about what they wanted to do here in Wisconsin a little bit more about what vehicle is all about. And then I think it was five months after we first started talking, I finally went down to Nashville to interview with all of the the C suite all the people that at the mothership that make they go run. And by the time I left that meeting, I was pleading in my head, I was pleading with God, please hire me, I want this job so badly. I wanted so badly to join Baker. What they opened my eyes to was the way I was doing things before. I didn't have to always do them that way. There are different ways to do this job. There are different ways to engage in commerce, there are different ways to open up your business world and serve your clients. And I wanted to I wanted to part of it. So they the Bayko culture, the Bayko Montra. It, it empowered me to be able to look for people that play this game the way I do you, Mike, Kelly, Amy, bring you all in and just let you go, be free to go do what you need to do. One of the things we say around your land is work hard and stay free. If you understand that, you don't need a manager, what you need is someone that can solve problems with you as they arise. There was something you said that was really it's enlightening. And it's I think we should talk about it a bit. When you met me. After we talked at first we first started Bayko you said all right, he said these things. But did he mean them? Is he going to back them up? And isn't that how all relationships start? Isn't that how it always is? People chat? Are they full of it? Is it real? What's sincere? What's authentic? What's real. If you're coming from your authentic place, you're being the best version of yourself. You're being who you are. You never have to remember what you said, you never have to remember how you act in front of somebody. I'm not saying you don't change the way you deliver a message to different audiences. But what I'm saying is the message should still be the same. That that makes sense, right?

Leighann Lovely 18:09

It's not difficult to remember what you've said, or because there's no there's no lie in there. Right? Because you are you're, you're telling everybody the same thing all the time. It's when you have people who it's yeah, it's that ball of yarn of Oh, are we going to unravel that next lie? Are we going to unravel? Where's that? You're right, absolutely. And you find that unfortunately, in too many places, where you go through the interview, you're like, Wow, this is going to be a great opportunity. I'm so excited. And then all of a sudden, you start pulling up that thread and you're like, Wait a second. They they bamboozled me, they said that I was going to get to do this and I was going to get to do that. And I was that's not what this is. I wasn't told that I was going to have the responsibility of cleaning the toilets. Okay, a little extreme. But you know, and all of a sudden, you're in a job that you had no idea what it was all about. You and I what I think what we talked for the first time we spoke we talked for over an hour, but over an hour. I remember it clearly I was sitting in my before I had an office in my my own space. I was sitting in my husband's office. We talked and then all of a sudden it went to talking about our children. I won't go into the specifics of that. We started talking about our children, I learned that you had four four children, and I was like oh my god, this you know, wow. Okay, well, I have one. So obviously, you know you have responsibilities that that are going to pull you away occasionally because, hey, with one kid I'm like, How do I balance How do I balance work? How do I balance? And you do you you have, you know what, just the other day you're, you're like, Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna head out, I'm gonna go to a play. See my my son like that? That is awesome, because most employers would be like, Nope, sorry, you have to you have to take a half day, you know, and take your vacation time to do things like that. That I mean, that's ridiculous. It's it's almost a punishment to have to go and participates in your children's lives. For what? Because the employer wants to make sure that they're not what getting screwed out of an hour of of your work. This is the shift. This is the the employees are finally standing up and saying, No, we're not we're not. The negative thing is that you and I are in staffing. And employees now hold all of the cards. Let's talk about that.

Brian Herczeg 21:11

Where do you want to start?

Leighann Lovely 21:12

Oh, yes. So you know, having a cultural environment, having a an amazing place to work is is one thing. And offering that, and now employees are getting smart. You know, I left a company where it's not a bad company, I will not ever bash an employer. And, you know, it's not a bad company, but some of the culture, some of the processes there were still behind the times. And I chose to move to something that was more comfortable for my situation. There are employees, there are a ton of people out there who are doing the same. And we work with clients. That on a daily basis, we have to coach, it's a regular thing in our world, right? Clients who say only on site, we do not offer remote work. We do not offer hybrid, or, yeah, a hybrid work environment. And employees will just flat out say, Nope, I want remote. Or I want hybrid. I mean, these are real things. So and then you have the employees who you know, go from being $20 an hour to I want 30. So it's definitely a struggle. Right.

Brian Herczeg 22:39

Right. Absolutely. So what I'll tell you is, I can't predict the future. I don't think many people can. But I know what the present is. So I don't know if remote work is here to stay. I know it's here now. I'll tell you as far as salary goes, pay goes, we've seen a drastic increase over the last 18 months in an increase that is like a hockey stick on a graph. I've never seen this before. It's been 10 years in this business 20 plus years in business. I've never seen salaries go up at this kind of a rate. I don't know if it's going to be like that forever. But I do know this life swings back and forth to pendulum and right now the pendulum is pegged about as far over as it can go in the candidates corner. And so companies and employers are trying to figure out how to make it work for them to the pendulum will swing back. Come back. far back. I don't know when but it will come back a little bit. It's so important for all of us in this business, to convey that message to our clients and our candidates that no matter how many cards you hold today. It's going to change. Treat people right now. Don't be don't overplay your hand. Because if you ask for too much money, the second that that pendulum swings back, you're the first person they're cutting.

Leighann Lovely 24:11

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree and and as much as you and I try to coach candidates on that. It falls on deaf ears, doesn't it?

Brian Herczeg 24:24

And yeah, it can't. But it's not our job to turn a no into a yes or to make people agree with everything we say. It's our job to give the best advice that we can and try to get to the parties to meet and come to an agreement. So some people may hear us and some people won't try to put yourself in other person's shoes. If you had the chance to, you know, make 30% more this year, and you've got a family to feed and you've got bills to pay. You're gonna probably explore that option and do everything you can to make it happen no matter what a couple of people at vaco are telling you try.

Leighann Lovely 24:59

Yes I completely agree with that. However, I'm the long game. That's, that's always the way I've been if I had the opportunity to make 30% more for just a year at one company, or make 10% more and another, or 5% More at another company for the next 10 years. I'm gonna go for the 5% more and stay for 10.

Brian Herczeg 25:29

That is exactly why I'm so happy you're on my team. Because you do you play the long game, you're looking at it pragmatically, realistically, and you've got a long term goal in mind. I wish No, I shouldn't say I wish not everyone's like that. That's not it's not the way it is. And the thing about the remote work and the hybrid work and looking for more money is it is out there. And it is it's attainable for people. But it's still work, you still have to produce, it's not a God given right to remote work and, and higher pay every year, you have to go earn it, earn it, it should come to you. The good thing about the market now is if you go earn it and it doesn't come to you, you have options, you can leave that employer, if your employer isn't recognizing your worth, doesn't realize you're a grown up and you can go leave to go watch your fourth four year old have a play without docking you for PTO. And you're good at what you do. Call me, I'll figure out another place for you. Because that's no one needs to be there. But if you're somebody who wants to remote work so you can hide, or so you don't have to necessarily produce because you don't want to get off the couch and work we'll find you to, you know, reality catches up to you. You can't you have to produce. This is an economy. This is a world where you have to constantly show your worth just did something great two years ago doesn't mean anything right now, every year, every day, you got to give it all you've got. And you should get the spoils for that work. And right now that includes higher pay, and remote and hybrid flexibility. Those are on the table. And for many people, they're non negotiable.

Leighann Lovely 27:16

So something you said Vaco has the pillars

Brian Herczeg 27:19

The core business tenants,

Leighann Lovely 27:21

I'm sorry, core business tenants, and you kind of you brought one of them up, it's you know, playing till the whistle. And that's really something that we all, at least in our office very much are very driven individuals. I don't know that any one of us. I think we all play until the whistle. And then, you know, the whole team has gone home, and we're sitting on the field by ourselves still playing and going, Why isn't anybody around? I mean, so you you brought that up? And it's just it's, we have a very interesting. Again, I just I had to bring that up, because I think that that is starting to fade away in some of there is a large generation of people out there that don't have that discipline. Yet, it seems that there is a younger generation coming in that if given an opportunity could be that great. And I bring this up because I talk a great deal about the generational changes and and this goes along with the cultural shift is we have Millennials constantly seem to be dodging responsibility, but want more money, more opportunity. But then we have this new generation coming in, that's really want to be able to be great and work hard. But we often find that employers are not giving them the opportunities that they deserve. What are your thoughts on that?

Brian Herczeg 29:13

It's tough, because there's a lot to use the phrase on pack there's a lot of unpack there. When you're talking about generations of people, there are characteristics and traits I think that we can observe. But it's dangerous snatching. Is it dangerous? That's a little dramatic. It's, it's it's tough to paint them all with a big wide brush. Yeah, so there. There are people that come in that are hard workers there that are millennials, there are leakers, that are millennials, but there are a lot of baby boomers that shied away from responsibilities as well. I'm a Gen X there. And I'm telling you if I could have made a living sitting on my couch and drinking beer, I'd have done that, you know, I unfortunate that wasn't in the cards. I tried. It didn't work. So my thoughts on it any Buddy listening out there, you are not owed an opportunity for anything. You're not owed anything, no one is going to give you a shot, you got to go earn it and you've got to go prove it. If you're new to the workforce, you may not get the shiniest project to do, you may not have as big of a voice at the kitchen table, guess what you didn't deserve, you don't deserve it, you didn't earn it, go get it. If you don't get that voice over time, then you're in the wrong company. If you're putting if you're playing to the whistle, every single day, you are working hard, you are adding value, you're making the people around you better. That's important, making the people around you better. You should get your voice heard at the table, you should get the shiny projects. That's when you realize if you're in the right place or not walking through the door. Come on. It's a new relationship, you're both trying to figure out if you're full of it, or if you're telling the truth, you don't know yet. You've hired a lot of people in your in your time doing staffing, when you're never quite sure how that's gonna go. Until after the first couple of weeks. The person's they're doing work, and you're getting feedback. Right? It's, it's tough, it's a tough question to answer when you're talking about opportunities and what people want. Because everyone's got a different point of view on that. My point of view is always the same. You don't deserve anything, you are things,

Leighann Lovely 31:19

Right? It's,

Brian Herczeg 31:21

It's tough, it's a tough question to answer when you're talking about opportunities and what people want. Because everyone's got a different point of view on that. My point of view is always the same. You don't deserve anything, you are things,

Leighann Lovely 31:35

You know, and you said something that was really, it was, I found fascinating. If you are helping the people around you look good, you're raising them up. That was I think my turning point in my career, when I stopped focusing on how I looked. And I started focusing on the people around me and how they looked and how I made and helped them. Look. I think that we all as a younger person, we all focus too much on oh my god, am I going to look bad in this situation. As soon as you stop being selfish, and you start going wait a second, if I can make my manager look really good. If I can make my co workers look really good. That is going to make me look really good. And as soon as you get that you are you're good to go. Your your your career is going to start to launch. But that concept for the younger generation coming in, they don't quite get that yet. That's that's the that's when Careers start to launch is when they start to let go of the that selfishness and you start to realize, oh, it's not about me. But it's that's a human nature thing. Like, and that's a growth thing of oh, okay, it's not it's not all about me. What do you mean, I thought I was the most important person in the room. You know, we all you know, you're a kid you grow up, you're still a kid, your parents make you feel like you're the most special person in the room. Okay, guess what, you're now in the real world. You are not the most important person in that room.

Brian Herczeg 33:20

When Mike and I, Mike Schmidt is the recruiter, you know, and we've worked together since we started this office, he and I used to try to and this is a good exercise for people. This is tough to do. When you're having a conversation with someone, see if you can avoid using the word AI. Throughout the entire conversation. I challenge people to try to do that. It is exceptionally difficult. You do that though. You realize that when you put the conversations focus on the person you're talking with, they have a better experience, they will remember you fondly because you made them feel important. You made them seen you made them feel heard. And when that happens, doors start to open for you. Because people want to be around you. And people want to be around you. You're going to end up being in the right room at the right time for the right opportunity. It just it's it's a very it's a cool thing, but it's a difficult thing to to try to do.

Leighann Lovely 34:24

And there's Dale Carnegie, How to make friends and influence people using people's names, making people or influencing people to talk about themselves and tell their stories versus walking into a room and saying, Hey, let me tell you about me. People inherently want to talk about themselves. They feel good when they get to tell you how they're doing. If you walk into a conference room and the person you're meeting with does 75 I've percent of the talking, they will walk out of that room feeling amazing. I used to, especially when the pandemic hit. After we started meeting in person again, for a while I would walk out, it would be a two hour meeting, and I'd walk out and go, Oh my gosh, I think I've become a counselor. Because, and again, I'm not picking on, I'm not picking on anybody, but nobody was having in person meetings, right? So you would go and meet with an HR person. And they would just, oh, oh, my gosh, I have to tell you what's going on. And they would tell you, everything that's happened at the company, everything, they had to do everything, you know, all of the responsibility that got laid on them because of the pandemic and furloughing people and have to negate the benefits and all of that stuff organized. And you realize that two hours have gone two hours have gone by, you barely said a word. You know everything about this person, everything about their life, everything that's going on at the company. And they're saying so can you at least give me like 1520 people by the end of next week? And you're like, Yeah, sure, yeah, I can do that. And you're like, I didn't even ask for the business. I just walked in and just listen to him talk.

Brian Herczeg 36:21

You can ask insightful questions for people and try to make them feel like what they're saying is important. Everything, everything tends to go your way. There was a saying? No idea who said it. I like to repeat it and pretend I made it up. But it goes something like this. A wise person once said, nothing. Yeah. That's it. Don't always have to be the one talking. Listen, listen more than you're talking. You just might learn something.

Leighann Lovely 36:57

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's funny, I had, I had a rough go of it when I was younger, because one, bipolar disorder, when you're manic, you have a tendency to say every single thing that's in your brain at the moment, it's in your brain. And because you're basically has, you know, being bombarded constantly with every, like, thoughts at hyperspeed. It's hard to even make sense sometimes. And I remember my parents would be like, I would walk into their house and I would literally just word vomit on them. And they'd be like, Oh my god, like, you know, and eventually it would get to the point where they'd go, okay, okay, it's quiet time. Now, you need to stop. And I'm just like, what, what do you mean with it? And it just rambling on? And my parents were just like, like, you've been here for an hour, and you've literally not stopped speaking? And I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, well, you know, I've got a lot to say, need to catch up. And it's like, Yeah, but you're not even like, you're not even having a conversation. You're just talking.

Brian Herczeg 38:07

Overcome so much. That's a that's something like Gosling, I just hearing you saying, what you've overcome. That's an inspiring story to tell. And that's it. People have to recognize you don't learn when things are going well, you learned during the hard times. That's that's been life's truths kind of smack you in the face. And you shared something that that was that was very, very powerful.

Leighann Lovely 38:31

Well, and that's it. And that's the reality. We all we all learn. We all have the capacity and the ability to learn something new every day. But we need to shut our mouths. And listen, because we're not going to learn something if we're the ones talking, right. And here I am saying, Hey, shut your mouth and listen, and I'm the podcast host. Right? But that is the reality is that the only way we learn something is if we, if we listen. And I love the saying, if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room. I absolutely love that saying. So I love to surround myself with smarter people. I want to soak up as much knowledge as I possibly can every single day and that is my goal. Because it'll help raise me up. It'll help connect me to the right people. It'll help. Just continue to and it's not even about launching my career. It's it's more about self awareness, growth. And from there, if you're continuing to do that, everything else falls in place. Your business, your life, your family.

Brian Herczeg 39:48

Yeah, when you do that, which is what you said that's so true. When you're learning when you're looking to learn. What it causes you to do is to be present in the moment. It causes you to give up We think you've got the person you're talking to at the time, you're listening to them, you're engaged with them. I think when you're our presence like that, where you're actively participating in your life moment to moment, it slows time down. by so fast, you're not just a passenger on the training, you're actually engaged with what's going on. And that's something that I'm still learning how to do it. It's it's, it's a hard thing, because you have thoughts, you have things you want to say you have an agenda, you've got things you need to get done. And focusing on being present in the moment, is something I struggle with, but it's something I'm working on, because I know it's going to, it's going to increase my happiness quotient. I say if we can, we can all do that in our home lives and our work lives with our clients, whatever it might be, I think we'd all be a whole lot happier.

Leighann Lovely 40:56

Okay, so here, I'm gonna throw that in, throw you for a loop here. You say, you know, time goes by so fast. All right, well spend a weekend with just you and your kids, tell your wife to go, I guarantee that will be the longest weekend of your life.

Brian Herczeg 41:15

For sure. You want the weekend to go by really, really wipe off for a spa vacation. For Kids.

Leighann Lovely 41:26

My, I said, My brother says to me, and it's so true. days are long, but yours are short. And it's totally totally true. When when you're a parent, there are some that I love my daughter, she is the most amazing thing. In the entire world.

Brian Herczeg 41:46

She is She is a doll Yeah, she's adorable

Leighann Lovely 41:48

She's but man, she, every single day, there is a moment where I have to walk out of the room and self talk of you're gonna be fine, you're gonna get through this, you're not gonna, you're not gonna throw her out the door, you're not gonna, you're not gonna lock her in a closet, so that you can go and do a shot of whiskey, or you're gonna get through this Leanna because kids, they they definitely, if you're not an adults, and you want to start adulting go babies, you know, go babysit somebody's child for a weekends. You know, like, they will push every button that you possibly have, and they will push you to the limit. And I have one, you have four. And so what four, seven.

Brian Herczeg 42:43

So you have the ages, I've got my three oldest are all boys, my sons are 10. In fourth grade, I have an eight year old, he's in second grade. I have a four year old who's in 4k. See how that works. He's one that dress like a lion in the play yesterday. And then my wife and I thank God had a daughter. So she's not outnumbered quite so bad anymore. And our daughter is eight months old. Yeah, that. And I'm 10 years old. So it's very hard to have a young, young baby at home,

Leighann Lovely 43:17

you're insane. I just want to

Brian Herczeg 43:19

I have to say I have a very good partner my wife is she's like Wonder Woman and every superhero rolled into one. And that's, that's how we get by.

Leighann Lovely 43:35

And that's, that's awesome. And that's part of the reason that you and I connected so well when we first talk because I wanted to work with somebody who understood real life. And and you do you understand that life happens? And you? Yeah, you just you get it, you get that we don't come to work, because we want to work, or we want to Yeah, live to work, we come to work because we want to be able to live. But you also create an environment that is fun, that we can be proud of the team that we're part of. And that's awesome. So thank you for that. And that brings me to my final question the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why?

Brian Herczeg 44:39

And I've been thinking about that since you pose that question because it's a thought provoking question. It's fantastic. And for me, it is at the point of my biggest failure is when my business failed, because when I was it was 2012 and I had a business. I had employees and It failed, I could not make it work, I had to close the store, I could not keep my people employed. And that taught me so much. And in the moment it was held. I, I wanted it to go away. I just wanted it to be fixed. But it taught me to be very conservative in what I promise. And in what I promise, make sure I can deliver. It taught me that success is not guaranteed, you're not owed anything. Even if you worked really, really hard, and tried really, really hard. You still aren't guaranteed success. I never thought of it that way before. That, well, if I work hard and do things, right, it's gonna all work out. That's true eventually, but it's not true every time. I didn't know that before 2020 2012. And we had I mean, I was in my 30s. At that point, I was a 30 year old man with a business that still had so much more to learn. that failure is what set me on the path to being here with you today, I never would have moved back to Wisconsin and worked there, Robert Half, Baker never would have knocked on my door. If I wasn't heading up at a Robert half's biggest offices in Milwaukee. All of these things happen. But in the moment, it was hell. But once you walk through it, you realize all the different things you learned, if you're going through hell, once you're out, you better make sure you inventory all the things you learn otherwise was a complete waste of time.

Leighann Lovely 46:38

Wow, you couldn't have said that better? And you would you made a comment just just a little while ago that it is the hard times when we learn the most. And that's absolutely true. It's not that we can't learn during the great times. But it is definitely during the times when we are struggling. And if we're not learning from that you're right, it's a complete waste of time. And it would be devastating to not learn from that. And to do it and make that same mistake. And that's you know why as parents, we're it's so painful to watch our children fall and not be able to tell them, hey, don't do that you're going to hurt yourself. But sometimes you have to let them fall in order to truly learn. We have to experience life in order to truly learn the hard lessons. So that we become who we are now, you had to experience that in order to become who you are now and to manage the way that you manage now, which is it's amazing. My, my dad retired, and just really quickly, my dad retired. And when he did retire, he was it was during the pandemic, and everybody's like, you're not going to have a party and my dad's like, No, instead of that, I want everybody to send me a card and write me a letter. He gave me those letters to read. I at times was crying. I realized in that moment that being a manager to people is one of the greatest gifts, being a good manager to people's was one of the greatest gifts that you can possibly have. Because in those letters, not only was he managing them in a job, he was a dad, to hundreds of people throughout his career. He was being thanked for saving people, you know, people's homes, you brought my mother in and she made a career here, you know, son went into the business. Those are the types of things that have an impact that last a lifetime. Or meet your dad. I have met people who've known him who refer to him as a legend. But it wasn't until I was in my upper 30s 40s that I realized the kind of impact that he had on the people he knew. I will introduce you one day if you like. I like that very much. So Brian, if somebody wants to get in contact with you, or vaco how would they go about doing that?

Brian Herczeg 49:32

You know, probably the easiest way would maybe go on to Vagos website bayko.com. And then look up our Milwaukee office, click on our pictures. We're all we're all there. That way you can also get the spelling of my last name and find me on LinkedIn. And then my email address is my first initial last name@bayko.com If you can figure all that out, hit me up and I'll I'll always answer

Leighann Lovely 49:59

you And that'll be in the show notes. So if you can't figure it out, it's it's pretty sad. Brian, thank you so much. This has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate your time today.

Brian Herczeg 50:14

Thank you for having me, man. You're doing great work and you're really really good at this. I'm just so I'm grateful that you're on my team because I love you every day. And this is this is one of those times. So thanks for this opportunity.

Leighann Lovely 50:25

Thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Brian Herczeg

Linikedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/brianherczeg/

Vaco - https://www.vaco.com/locations/milwaukee-wisconsin/?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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An inquisitive mind wanted to know all he could about business and because he took the initiative to ask the questions, he found his way to becoming The Mayor of Podcast Town. A dynamic and creative individual with so much to offer the world.

Elzie D. Flenard III

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want, generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:05

Don't pigeon hole Elzie D. Flenard III, don't even try describe him this way, he'll point out another, change your perspective, and he'll lead you down another path, maybe without even realizing, he's a creative dude and entrepreneur, a family man, a business owner, no box fits him, It doesn't exist. He's a man of original thoughts, all products have unique thinking, I'm really excited that I get to have a conversation with The Mayor of Podcas Town. He's a very unique and dynamic individual. And today, you get to hear our conversation.

Leighann Lovely 01:46

Elzie, thank you so much for joining me today, I'm really excited to jump in and get to know you a little bit better, and have my audience get to know you. So thank you for being here.

Elzie D. Flenard III 01:55

Thank you so much for having me, I am looking forward to the conversation.

Leighann Lovely 01:59

So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about your background a little bit about you know.

Elzie D. Flenard III 02:05

So we only have an hour. And so I'm gonna give you the two minute version. I am a creative. I've been a singer songwriter since I was about five years old. And what's funny is, I've always known to things like from a very early age, I knew that I wanted to own my own business. And I knew that I wanted to have a family. And so my plan, even as a 13, 14, 15 year old was to go to the get education, because that wasn't important to my mom. And I knew I needed to have a job so that I could get married and have a family. And so my grand plan was to go graduate, get married, have some kids, and then run my business whenever I you know, at the second that I could. And um, the plan really, really did work, I got more was married young, I ended up getting a degree in electronics and doing the whole education thing and had a couple of kids. But it was taking me a really long time to quit that job that I hated. And so what I ended up doing is launching enterprise now, so that I can learn from business people. And if during that process, I learned a ton from business people so much so that I ended up launching and doing, you know, starting my own business. And that sort of brings us to today where, you know, I'm running podcast town, as the mayor, and I'm helping other people use their voice to drive both revenue and built relationships.

Leighann Lovely 03:42

That's awesome. And wow, we could we could just dive right into that and make this that the whole entire conversation. But I love what you said about you know, basically learning from other people's having people and having those conversations learning from business owners, that's great. Because really, if we just all sat down and and listen to other people took the time to have conversations with other people the amount of knowledge that's available just from having a single conversation with somebody who's smarter than you. I mean, it's it's amazing. I think that, you know, I push that a lot. And I think you and I have talked about that before where you're like, Yeah, I just wanted to have conversations with business owners to see, you know, what they knew what I could learn from and that's you don't need to go to Google to look something up if you can sit down with somebody who's done it before, right? Yeah, that's awesome. So you recently posted and I just kind of mentioned this before, before we even started this conversation, but it really it I loved this post it grabbed me but you recently posted that you were putting it all out there and you are I love that tell me what that means.

Elzie D. Flenard III 05:02

Yeah, I think for me, I've done a lot of different things, man I have, I teach people all the time I've done any job you can think of, I've probably done it. I've worked fast food. I've cleaned the bottom of barges. I was a janitor for a little bit. I've been an electronic electronic technician, I've been an electrical engineer, I've been a project I've done anything you can imagine, like, I've done a job that's related. And the one of the things that I'm I'm morbidly aware of, in some respects, is that I don't have all day, like, I'm not gonna be here forever. Right. And that, and that, again, is sort of morbid to think about but but it really it motivates me to, to get every gift, every talent, every idea, every crazy thing that I want to do, and get it out there because you don't know what tomorrow brings. And I want to die empty. I want to die having done tried every single thing that my crazy little brain cups could think of. And so that's sort of what what the sentiment of that post was, is that I'm, I'm at the point in my life, where I'm going to lay it out online, you know, I want to do some acting, I want to do some modeling, I'm going to start an action movie. It doesn't have to be a blockbuster Hollywood movie, right? But I'm gonna do all of that stuff. I'm gonna write a couple of books. I'm gonna do more podcasts, I'm gonna do other businesses, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna put it all on the line.

Leighann Lovely 06:37

That's, that's awesome. Wow, um, the phrase that you just said, I want to die empty. I've never heard it said better. Yeah, if we could all give our all to the world, to our family, to our friends to the world, on a regular basis, what a better what a better place that, you know, this would be right. If we were constantly trying to do better and be better just out of pure desire to, to give what we have to the worlds when that make for such a, such a more interesting story.

Elzie D. Flenard III 07:21

Yeah, and the cool part about it is, is when you give without the expectation of getting anything in return, it's pure. And, you know, if people will return it, that's awesome. If they don't, that's awesome, too. And, and really just embracing the journey, like the destination is known, like, I know, what the, what the end goal is gonna be right? So I'm just really laser laser focused on enjoying the journey.

Leighann Lovely 07:50

So tell me a little bit about the journey. And I got to ask, how do you clean the bottom of a bar?

Elzie D. Flenard III 07:58

Well, I, I'm glad nobody has ever asked that follow up question. Okay, so there are different types of barges that carry different types of things. And depending on what the barges carrying it, you know, will determine what you use to clean it. For example, if it's corn, you can simply use, you know, those utility brushes that you see. And, you know, sweep it to the edge of the barge, and then they have these really, really big hoses, that then sucks the corner up from the corner. But if the barges carrying what they call pig iron slices, these little blocks of iron, well, you can't really use that, that little brush anymore. So you have to use your 10 fingers. And you have to pick up the arm iron, take it to the edge of the barge and rinse and repeat and then use the brush to sweep the dust. It's really dusty, and it's hot, and it's miserable. The pay wasn't that great. But it motivated me to get my degree because I was like, I know what I don't want to do. This I like the people who do it. God bless them. It was not for me, I was like okay, I am going to go to whatever I need to do to not have to do this. Right.

Leighann Lovely 09:16

So right we you know, we forget the journey sometimes the beginning of the journey because you know, I to I worked at a McDonald's and I only lasted six months. And I was young but I realized wow, I this is not for me. Now there are people who have a career. You know, they become a manager at a fast food place. And it's that's that's their career. I couldn't do it. I came home every day greasy, smelly. I remember my brother worked at a at a Pizza Hut. And every time I smell pizza hut, like if I even walk into a Pizza Hut, I'm like, Oh, no offense to pizza. I mean, I I I'm not picking on them but you When you have to smell the smell of somebody after they've been there for eight hours, remove it. It's rough, but I guess it puts in perspective that there I mean, there are jobs out there that are, you're I mean, it's a grind. It's truly a grind. And there's every there's somebody for every job out there. But it really does put in perspective for some of us who are sitting behind a microphone, talking about the job versus the person who's actually physically doing the job. So I have to remember to thank those people that much more for doing a job that I just can't dealing with, you know, food is not for me.

Elzie D. Flenard III 10:46

And not to belabor the point, Leighann, but so I forgot to add, so when you're cleaning the barges, you have to use high pressure water hoses. And at the time, this was 25 years ago, so I wasn't, I wasn't as heavy as I am now. Right? I've grown a little bit since then. And so I literally am leaning all of my body weight forward into this high pressure hose to what to wash this down. So can you picture like, it's the bottom of bars are about 12 to 14 feet deep. It's hot outside, and I'm where else from it. It's Southern Illinois. So it's 99 degrees, the normal temperature. So it's like 125 degrees, dusty, and I'm leaning like all of my little box, by the way to this high pressure hose to clean up the thing. And I was like, yeah,

Leighann Lovely 11:34

Yeah. When that have been a funny joke for somebody just flip that pressure watch. Just watch you fault for watching. Go. Oh, sorry. Sorry about that. Okay. All right. So so you, you, this journey has now brought you to podcast town, where you are the mayor? How How have you become the mayor now? I mean, tell me that story.

Elzie D. Flenard III 12:04

As much as I want to take credit for it. I have to tell the story how it happened. So I'm working with Mr. Pat Miller, the idea Coach, and we're talking strategy we're talking about where I want the business to go and what it what it what is the vision and he takes this pause, which is dangerous for a creative person to do any kind of stares off and he leans back in his chair. And he says, You know what? You're the mayor will call you the mayor of podcast, the way you show up the way you preside the way you connect people. You're you're the mayor. And I said, Okay, so I started to tease it out on social. And I made a post I never forget, I'm on Facebook. And I put it out there just kind of saying, Hey, I'm the mayor running for for office, blah, blah, blah. And my mom calls me, and she's like, I'm so excited for you. I'm so happy that you're running for mayor. I'm like, Mom, it's a marketing campaign. Not not a real mayor. And so that's the moment I knew, Okay, this thing might have some legs, so we kind of, you know, ran with it.

Leighann Lovely 13:19

That oh my god, that's so cute. That is That is adorable that your mom that she would be so proud. I mean, but it she should have though, because it is the fact that it's grabbing people's attention going okay, wait, who is this guy? Like he's running for mayor? Who? That that is beautiful. That is in despite the fact that you know, you didn't necessarily come up with it that you ran with it. You took it and you you built on that. But I didn't think about like the initial I'm running for mayor. And because if I were to see that I'd go okay, well, Mayor of what who's the, you know, should I be voting for this guy? I'm gonna research him who is he? That That's brilliant. I never really thought about it that way. Now, this goes a little bit of a step further, because I've been to, you know, I bend to your studio. You also lay out the red carpet for those who come to visit you. So tell me a little bit about that. I love to dive into this.

Elzie D. Flenard III 14:23

Oh my goodness, I love telling the story. Okay, so I always tell people I am the most strategically random person you will ever meet.

Leighann Lovely 14:32

Right? Strategically random.

Elzie D. Flenard III 14:35

Yes, So I'm sitting in studio one day and we're just doing a session and a lady walks by and her high heels are just killing my recording like they are piercing through and it was bad. So I go up to David Noel, the the manager at the time. And I say David, um, do you think that the lab will will allow us to put an area rug out so that when the ladies and sometimes gentlemen, depending on what kind of shoes they have on, when they go by, it doesn't kill my recording. He's like, Well, you know, I don't think that they'll allow us to do that. But maybe you could put like a runner out or something like that so that they can walk on set. Okay, is it okay to compromise. And so I hop on Amazon, I'm looking for, you know, renters or carpet or anything. And so I put in a search, I hit Enter, and this red carpet comes up. And I go, Hmm, I think this would be a really cool thing to do is put the red carpet out, because, you know, we treat you like a star if I guess town, and we help you show up and perform, and it's kind of on brand. And so I get it. And I roll it out. And I take a little it was literally like a three second video of just the carpet and then our sign. And then I got calls the next day from people who had seen it on social, wanting to come into the studio to work with us. So again, strategically random, completely random, I wasn't brilliant. I didn't say well, let's roll out the red carpet and add that, to our experience. It was like, I need to solve a problem.

Leighann Lovely 16:17

Right? don't downplay it. See, but that's sometimes brilliance comes from, here's a problem. Let me figure out how to solve it. And that's where the brilliance comes from. I mean, so don't don't downplay that. I don't absolutely don't downplay that. But you also, you also have the problem of you rolled that out. And then some of the people in the building were walking around it, where

Elzie D. Flenard III 16:42

it was funny is you can hear them walking around it, like they will come to the edge of it. And then they would like I can almost picture them making the decision. Like, I'm gonna walk around this carpet, this guy is obviously there to walk on and they're walking right around him like, Okay, well, you can only do so much.

Leighann Lovely 17:02

Didn't want to get the beautiful red carpet dirty. Right? That that is a brilliant again, you know, that's a brilliant strategic move, whether it came from, you know, oh, that's a great idea. You know, I happenstance upon you know, this, here's a red carpet that Amazon is, you know, selling. But you know, that's, it's just great. It's another brilliant marketing move that others would have not necessarily thought of. So it's perfect. So now, obviously, you know, over the last two years, I'm assuming that, well, you're seeing podcasts pop up all over the place, because we have now shifted to a virtual world and people are trying to get their voices out there. Right. So how has that I mean, shifted for you? Have you seen an uprise? Have you seen? What have you seen?

Elzie D. Flenard III 17:56

Um, I think it's, it's great in a lot of ways. I'm the big guys are here to stay, you know, the Amazons, the Spotify and the the big businesses. But I think what it's doing is it's helping the podcast industry as a whole sort of settle in and become a legitimate long term industry. Whereas before, there were a few times in the history of podcasting, where it would grow in increasing popularity, and then sort of flatline or or not necessarily stabilized, but kind of plateau. And then it will come to popularity and then plateau. I don't think podcasts are going anywhere anytime soon, especially in the b2b space, just because it's such a, an organic way to build relationships and to, to gather anchor content, that I think if you're in business, in the next two or three years, you're gonna be in the podcast space, whether you're hosting a show, guessing on a show or sponsoring a show you if you're smart, you will be in the podcast space in some form. So so there's almost this leveling out that's happening. So there's different types, I don't want to call them tears of podcasters there's the hobby podcaster, who you know, they just have something to say and they want to grab a microphone and some headphones and interview their friends and, and top. Then there's the the podcaster, who is building a business on his podcast like I did, I mean, I literally built my entire brand and business on the back of my podcast. I see more of that happening. And I see on the consumer level, a lot more focused content that's geared to entertain and intersect in, entertain and inform. And I also see a sharp rise in the two Bs businesses using podcasting. So I think the future's bright for the industry. It's exciting for podcast town. It just means that we've continually had to re reinvent ourselves and sort of find our place in the ever changing industry that is podcasting.

Leighann Lovely 20:20

Right. So you said something that was interesting. So podcasting, not going away. So one way or another you think that b2b businesses are going to be somehow involved in podcasting? And you listed three, whether or not they are podcasting, sponsoring podcasting? Or what was the other one? Or guesting on shows or guesting on shows. Okay, so now I have come up against employers who are absolutely pushing against, I don't want to do that I don't want to be involved in that. This is not the wave of the future. So do you think that and again, we I'm sure that we experienced this when the internet came out? Oh, we're not gonna we're not gonna jump on that everything is going to be however, how was this is done. But I mean, there's just there's companies who are just not forward thinking on that. And, you know, advertising right now is a lot of companies do radio, a lot of companies do print a lot of companies. So do you think that companies who are jumping on the bandwagon now are going to have a lot more of that, the cutting edge of that, or, and in some of the companies who are just not willing to change, do you think they're going to be hurting long run,

Elzie D. Flenard III 21:43

I don't know that I will use the term hurting, I would say, you know, just like anything else, you'll experience the diminishing returns right? As as it begins to get more popular, the rates are going to increase, because podcasters are going to realize, I should be making more per episode for this spot than I am. And the power dynamics will shift a bit when podcasts or books become more savvy, that's knowing the true power that they have. I mean, if if you get if you could get somebody endorsement to their their people who they already have their they like them, know them, trust them. That's extremely valuable. Right, that's more that's a deeper connection, then a Facebook ad, for example, or a TV ad. So I think that they they're going to experience loss in terms of the sort of like, if you look at Facebook ads, for example, if you were running Facebook ads, 10 years ago, you got a lot more for your dollar than you do now. I think podcast advertising will be the same way where now it's pretty cheap, you know, $35 per 1000 downloads is what people are paying, and sometimes less. That won't always be the case when when podcasters and content creators get savvy and realize that, hey, I have a lot to offer, that price is going to go up. And I think that the people who are lacking now are going to are going to miss out on the early days. Where it was it was more cost effective.

Leighann Lovely 23:23

Interesting. Now you had mentioned Facebook, so at one time Facebook was the place to go. And that's starting to fizzle out because of a generational thing. The younger generation coming in is no longer jumping on Facebook, they're jumping on. Now I'm dating myself, I don't even know what they're jumping on now. What is it Instagram? Is it tick tock is it you know, all the new platforms. So Facebook is starting to kind of what I think they said buy in the next over the next 10 years, Facebook is going to start to you know, even die off more and more and more because they're not getting the new users coming on. And you know, as new users don't come on, the information that you know is flowing from there starts to go down, whatever. It's been a long time since I did the research on that one. Anyways, so as as we've seen in the past, you know, fads come and go. Now you would mentioned podcasts would go up and then they would not you didn't say they would plateau. Well yet you said they would kind of plateau and then they'd go up again. Do you? Do you see that podcasts are gonna continue to be on the rise and a consistency or do you think that they're going to continue to kind of have that up and down motion?

Elzie D. Flenard III 24:48

I think that they'll continue to to increase in popularity for a couple of reasons. Which is which is the grease. The top reason that I got into podcasting is I started doing some research on the moon meant of people wanting what they want, when they want how they want it, this whole on demand culture. And I don't see that stopping anytime soon. I know that for a fact that Google is working on our audio search, I know that there are more and more social audio sites popping up. There's a reason for that. LinkedIn has, you know, is jumping into social audio. And so there, there's a trend. And they're doing these things for for a reason. This, like, I'll give you an example, my son, he doesn't know how to type. But he Googles more than I do. And he does that, because he clicks on he punches the little microphone. And he says, Google, what's two plus two? And Google tells him what two plus two is. So more broadly, audio is not going away. And there are people who who want information when they want it, how they want it. That's to the point, and specific, that is not going away, especially on the enterprise side. There's tons of opportunities, both internal and external, that companies can leverage podcasting, and audio, more broadly, to, to hone in vision, things like vision, mission, culture, disseminating information. There's all all these cool ways that you can leverage audio to, to stay connected and foster community. Wow. And

Leighann Lovely 26:37

You hit on something. I don't know how old your your son is, but my four year old talks to Alexa. Yep. So Wow. Yep, you absolutely hit it on the head. We are becoming a not just a virtual world, but a audio virtual world where our homes are now controlled by Hey, Alexa, put this on the grocery list. Hey, Alexa, turn on the lights. Hey, Alexa, do I mean I have I tell Alexa to turn on my daughter's room and it turns on hers. Her little twinkly lights in her room. And you're right. I'll be standing in the kitchen. And I'm like, What am I going to make for dinner? Hey, Alexa, give me a chicken tender dinner. And she's like, here are five different recipes. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, I mean, back in the day, when I was young. I mean, when I was 1819 20 years old, I had to go and open up a cookbook. And if there wasn't the right recipe in that cookbook, well, I was out of luck. I mean, yeah, yes. And something else that you said that I found interesting. People want very precise content, they want to be able to say, I'm looking for content related to this. i And and that's another thing that I think people should, you know, if you're interested in making or creating a podcast, it needs to be marketed properly. And I think you and I talked about this briefly marketed properly, should, you know giving an understanding of what your content is about. So that people know how to grab that information and get that very specific information that they're looking for. So if you you know, somebody is, and I do this all the time, you know, hey, Alexa, or Google or whatever, you're, how do I fix my, this type of refrigerator with this type of filter? You know, we now have the ability to do that. Or if I want to learn about how to you know, garden, I can listen to a podcast about I don't know if there's podcasts out there. I'm sure there is a podcast about gardening for you know, gardening, or somebody who wants to landscape their yard. So you're right. I guess you're Yeah. Of course. You're right. I mean, you are the mayor.

Elzie D. Flenard III 29:17

I think the other thing that's interesting is how how passive of a medium Park podcasting is like, a lot of times when I'm doing housework, or washing the dishes or snow blowing even I'll listen to a podcast. And I learned just as much from that passive listening as I would if I were reading it in a book. And of course, everybody is different. But I think if you're if you're a business or if you're a brand, it also allows you to shorten the sales cycle. I can't tell you how many times I've hopped on the phone with somebody and they knew things about me that I was surprised that they knew because they listened to my podcast. And they're like, oh, okay, so they feel like they know me already. You know, they hop on the Zoom call and like, hey, the mayor's is on the call, right? Because they've listened to my shows, and they feel like they know me. And so we get past that whole part of the sales process, because they already, like, know, and trust me, now it's just a matter of, is what I do a fit for, for what they need. So, so for businesses, that's an especially important part of, you know, your consideration, right. You know, you shorten that sales cycle, and, and really set up in a situation where, now you're just solving a problem, you know, you don't have to sell them anything.

Leighann Lovely 30:44

Right, breaking down those walls. So that they Yeah, having that comfort, already that intimacy that, you know, you typically have to create within that first, you know, meeting sometimes even a second meeting, they already have that, because you've now put your voice out there to them. Yeah, that I, honestly, I didn't even think about that. But, you know, even on this podcast, I reveal a lot of information about myself, I reveal a lot of things that, you know, in my world, so it is sometimes creepy. When I talk to people, and they're like, Oh, my God, I loved blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, Who are you know that? Oh, well, you said it, and you talked about it, and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I forget sometimes what I say on those, and yes, you're absolutely right. But you're right. That's the whole point is to, you know, let people see into you. Whether it you know, see that side of you that, you know, break down those walls into, it's almost like having a one on one except that you're, you know, sitting and having a conversation. Maybe it's just a solo podcast, maybe you're just sitting here having a conversation with somebody else. But it is definitely a way to warm people up. Yeah, that's, that's, that's awesome. That's awesome. So when did you know that you were going to create your business? I mean, was there like a light bulb that went off? And you're like, Yep, I'm going to create podcastone.

Elzie D. Flenard III 32:27

Well, the SOA, so it's a long story lean, but I'll try to keep it short. So it so enterprise now, literally started because remember, I told you, I'm strategically random. At the end of all of my episodes, I would ask my guests, if you were me, what would you do? What would you be doing? And one day, the guest looks at me, and they say, Well, you know, LC, I would help people start podcasts. Because you started this one, it seems like it's a great show, and you enjoy doing it, and you're halfway decent at it. So I would, I would help people start podcasts. And I thought, hmm, because that had never occurred to me. Because my only goal when I started my show was to meet business people and learn from them. And so that's what I did. I started helping people start start launch podcasts. And that's sort of how the business was born. And one day I, you know, I wanted to do a group coaching program. And I was working with my business coach, that's theirs. That's the common thing, right? I'm always trying to, you know, get better and work with with coaches, because they can see things that that we can't see. But, um, so I said, I told him, I want to, I want to do a group coaching program. Sorry, that's a great idea. You should do it. And so I'll come back to him with this brand called podcast out because I wanted to give it a name. Right. And he's like, Huh, that's a really good name. That's the brand. I was like, Okay. I'm glad you like it. He's like, No, I don't think you understand. Enterprise now is, is great. It's cool. But I don't know what that is. Podcast town is the brand. And I'm a little you know, I'm a little slow. Sometimes I still didn't catch on. He said, and I said, Great. I'm glad you like he said, No, Elzie get rid of five or enterprise now make podcast town, the main brand. And so that's what I did. And so I kind of put enterprise now the app down as a podcast, and elevated podcast town as the brand of the company.

Leighann Lovely 34:26

I don't feel like you have trouble understanding. I feel like you have trouble accepting the compliments. Like, yeah, Elzie you're, you're awesome. So you know, go and do this. And you're like, Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah, it's a great idea. No, no, no, you're you rock dude. Just like, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have a I have a friend that that does that too. That's, you know, always like you're like, Yeah, dude, that's so great. And they're like, Okay, you're like, No, you don't understand. Like, you just blew the title. off of this place, and everybody is like standing ovation. And you're just like, Yeah, okay, great. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, I mean, you're, you have brilliant ideas. And you've I mean, you're obviously, you know, successful. And you like you said, you have a lot to give to the world. So. So every, every episode this season, I asked everybody the same question. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be? And why?

Elzie D. Flenard III 35:40

That is a fantastic question. There's so many, if I could think of just one. I would say, when I was, I was still in high school. And I didn't think to two things, I didn't think I was smart enough to go to college. And I definitely didn't think I could afford it. Because we, you know, I grew up in not an affluent household, right. And so college for me was, it was a, it was a dream. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't something that was tangible. And so my plan was not to say that there's anything wrong with this, but this is my teenage brain thinking like, Okay, well, I'll just go into the army, because that's, that's what's available to me. And my sister who had she's six years older than I am, and she was, I'm home on leave. And I told her, hey, you know, here's what I'm thinking about doing. And she looks at me, she says, Well, I will say, I think you I think you could go to college, I think you could, you could do it. And over a period of time, she no did what big sisters do. And she kept encouraging and giving me those those nuggets of wisdom. And so it worked. And so one day, I decided, Okay, I'm gonna go to college. And that's a whole nother story land on why I decided to go into what I went into. But, um, so I go back to my, my army recruiter, and I tell him, you know, I think I want to go in a different direction, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to college. And I'll never forget it, he looks me in the eye. And he says, You're, you're not, you can't go to college, you can't afford it. And at that moment, something changed in my mentality. It was like, not only am I gonna go to college, but I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna kill it. And I'll show you. And from that point on, that's been my mantra. It's like, there's nothing that is off limits to me, not because I'm so arrogant that I think I'm so awesome. But but it was too early to things because I know God is on my side. And I know that if I put in the work, and if I believe it, then I could do anything. And that was the pivotal moment in my life, really, that cemented that mentality in me.

Leighann Lovely 38:08

You know, when somebody tells us that we can't do something, it's, it's a almost animal, animalistic reaction, to immediately strike back and say, don't tell me, I can't do this. I'm going to do it. And sometimes it's all you need to push you to that limit of, I'm absolutely going to positively do this. And it's not even about like, let me show you let me show me that I can absolutely do this. And that, I mean, sometimes that's all it takes, right? Sometimes it's a matter of just one person saying, You can't do that for you to. And here's something that really drives that home. If I tell my daughter, again, I'll remind you, if she's four, don't eat that. She'll go, okay. And she pick it up and eat it. And I'm like, What is it with reverse psychology? When it comes to humans? Somebody tells you, you can't do that. And they're like, nope, pretty sure I can. It's, it's absolutely if somebody you know, no, not to say that I'm against encouragement to children, because I'm not gonna, you know, you can't you're not going to be able to graduate this, this. No, that no, I'm 100% on an encouragement, but sometimes it takes in life for somebody to say, I'm not sure that you can do that. For that person to go, no. I'm digging in. I'm absolutely going to positively do that. And, and good for you. Good for your sister. For you know, encouraging you and constantly and did you say that your sister wasn't in the military? She was Yeah. Okay. So and thank you. No, thank you for her service as well. But I mean, that's awesome for her to and your family to encourage you to do. You know, to do that, that's, that's amazing to have the family support the family dynamic that you need in order to go out and do you know what you what you've done. So this has been an absolute amazing conversation, but if somebody wanted to get in contact with you, how would they go about doing that?

Elzie D. Flenard III 40:27

The easiest way is via email, and my email address is just Mayor@podcasttown.net. Oh, and connect with me on LinkedIn as well.

Leighann Lovely 40:38

Yep. Awesome. So alzate like I said, it's been such an amazing conversation. You really are. A jack of all trades, master of none, but truly, well, I think you are a master of plenty. But yeah, you're definitely a dynamic, dynamic individual. So thank you so much for your time.

Elzie D. Flenard III 40:59

I appreciate you having me.

Leighann Lovely 41:01

Elzie D. Flenard

Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/elziedflenardiii/

E-mail - Mayor@podcasttown.net

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

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It is an extraordinary gift to be able to have true compassion and empathy for others while also refraining from judgment and criticism. This guest is one of a kind because he has life experience that offers understanding in so many ways.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:04

Good morning I am excited to have this awesome conversation with an individual was introduced to has a passion for the same types of conversations that I have a passion for. So it's only fitting that he and I decided to have this conversation today. So I'd like to introduce you to Dylan Sessler. He is a mental health coach, professional speaker podcast, host of the Dylan experience, entrepreneur, combat veteran and an author of the book Defy The Darkness, a story of suicide, mental health and overcoming your hardest battles. In January of 2020, Dylan began speaking on Tick Tok about mental health and trauma. By 2022, he has accumulated more than half a million followers supporting his daily content centered around having a realistic conversation about things like mental health, abuse, trauma, self harm and suicide. His Relentless Pursuit has allowed him to impact the lives of millions while also developing a platform to help society rethink human connection, and mental health. I'm thrilled that I get to have this conversation because it is something that I'm also, as many of my listeners know, very passionate about bringing forward conversations such as this, and so many more. So let's get this conversation started.

Leighann Lovely 02:39

Welcome, Dylan. I'm so excited to have you on today. Thank you for coming.

Dylan Sessler 02:44

Appreciate it. Appreciate you having me on. Glad to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:47

Yeah. So why don't you have such a unique background? So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself?

Dylan Sessler 02:53

Well, that's a big question. I'll try and try and give you the SparkNotes version. Realistically, I'm a mental health coach, and I'm a veteran, I'm an author, do a whole lot of different things. But all of this kind of started with with my own mental health journey. Around six years old, with my my dad committed suicide. And in all of that kind of chaos, kind of created this persona of guilt ridden and shame ridden from what his choice was, came out of it with, with a pretty, a pretty dark perspective on life, and lived with that for a very long time until in 2015, and nearly ended my own life. And with that, I'm now here. Because of that moment, that moment kind of pushed me to recollect myself start to understand, you know, and answer the question, Why? Why did I end up here? Why did I end up, you know, sitting on the on the floor with a gun in my hand, ready to end my own life because of what happened 19 years ago, you know, in that 19 years, there's a whole lot that happened. But more or less, the moral of that story was, it all brought me to a point of, of complete and utter disconnection from myself from other people from the world. And I thought death was better than life at the at that point. And from that point on, I changed I had to because if I didn't, I knew I wasn't going to make it through that. And so I dove into you know, there's a bookshelf behind me, I dove into hundreds of books over the last seven or eight years. hundreds of videos and podcasts and documentaries and all things that I learned from and develop myself and learn about who I am and why I am the way that I am. Learn how to tell my narrative and my story a lot better, not only to other people, but to myself, so I can actually understand why do I have value, but what am I here for? Develop purpose, develop power. And most importantly, I think develop perspective, which is something that I think I'm quite known for on tick tock now, but learning how to look at myself from a different angle and looking at other things from a different angle. And it ultimately brought me to you today, by pushing myself out into the business world. And we, you know, we met through a chamber of commerce meeting and quite fortuitous that, you know, here we are talking, you know, to potentially help people understand a little bit more about themselves.

Leighann Lovely 05:39

That's awesome. And having these conversations in today's society is ever more important and being able to step into, like you said, a commerce or a chamber of commerce, and be able to stand up and simply say that, you know, here's, here's who I am. And this is what I talk about. It's, it's so powerful, because, and I remember the day that I met you, a lot of people, you know, wanting to walk up to you and say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm so and so. And this is what I do, I'd love to have a conversation, you know about what you do and how you do it, especially when you said tick tock. Yeah, it's, it's awesome. You have built an amazing following on tick tock, and something that the business community is still very far behind in for many people there. I'm sure that there are plenty of companies out there, figure it out. I have not myself, but looking, you know, to you for guidance on that still, you know, still haven't figured it out, but I'll get there one day. But I mean, you have truly done an amazing thing, what I think in your bio, it's was what, half a million followers so far on on tick tock, and you're continuing to climb on that.

Dylan Sessler 06:50

Yep. I'm up to like, 575,000. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 06:55

And that's amazing to have a conversation, to have the conversations that you're having to build an audience around the topic that you're talking about. It's it's so needed, not just on an individual basis, but on a company wide basis to bring awareness across the board. Stop penalizing people for being who they are, when they walk into a company. We are who we are. And that's, again, that's what I stress on my podcast at you know, to all my listeners, they know that that is constantly what I stress. So bringing you on and talking with you today is just it's awesome. Yeah, but you also, you also wrote, you know, a book, and you've created your own business. Tell me how you first tell me about your book.

Dylan Sessler 07:47

Sure. So I wrote, Defy The Darkness, a story of suicide, mental health and overcoming your hardest battles. And that book is essentially it describes my own version of what self help really looks like and self development really looks like but with kind of within through the eyes of my own narrative. You know, what I've been through talks about my dad's suicide it talks about being bullied it talks about you know, abuse as a child, it talks about war, it talks about suit, you know, my own suicide talks about all sorts of different aspects of my life that forced me to kind of address different pieces of the puzzle, right? The human experience is vast, it's wide, it's, it's deep, and it's it can be disconnecting in many realms of society, especially today with how fast paced everything is supposed to are. It really is right now. And I should say it's supposed to be and it's, it's really, it's my first step into helping people, right, because it was the book really is essentially the first thing that helped me writing that book, you know, really started, you know, about seven or eight years ago when I'm when I made that attempt to commit suicide. And it was like, nobody taught me how to overcome suicide. Nobody taught me how to overcome grief and loss and all the things that I had been through and PTSD from from Afghanistan and my dad's death. There's, there's no, like, simple guide to doing these things. And, and what I've realized through my time, especially on tick tock for the last two years, is there's not going to be right there's no simple guide to overcoming these things. Many great people have tried and certainly have succeeded in some ways, but not for everyone. And so this book is is my own version of it. And I think it's going to be valuable for people that that dig into it because I think it has value for many different people. You're not gonna like everything about the book, but I think it's a it's a very valuable book for people who are struggling through money. So mental health are struggling through any any persistent battle. And it's a place where you can get relatability you know, it's defy the darkness, it's not about being positive and, and the bullshit like that it's about doing the hard work and digging into the places that nobody wants to dig into. And it's real. It's raw, you know, you hear me talking about if you listen to the audible version, you hear me talking about the hard stuff, the emotional stuff. You know, and it's, it's important to dig into that stuff. And there's a whole chapter on fundamentals of the human experience. You know, I think it's, it's incredibly, incredibly important for people to read.

Leighann Lovely 10:44

You know, and it's interesting that you said when, you know, in 2015, correct as is, okay. So in 2015, you dug in, you started research, you started reading anything that you could get your hands on, to try to understand listening to podcasts, that is so similar to many stories of people that I've spoken to, it's, it's my exact story, at the time. For me, there were no pod, there were not podcasts around. My story goes back to many, many years prior, it's been nearly 20 years since my diagnosis. And but I, I was in bookstores, I was grabbing every single book known to man that was on the understanding of bipolar at that time. And that was what saved me, of course, my psychiatrist and the medication that I eventually, my trip to Rogers Memorial Hospital, you know, all of that bundled in, but really, it was, I'm very much an emotional intelligence person reading those books and that kind of thing. And then it was the idea that, if I can understand what's happening in my own brain in my own body, shouldn't I be able to overcome that? And I was stuck on that point of, if we can understand what's happening, can't we make it? Can we make it different? And for a really long time, I was stuck on the idea of, well, hey, if I know that my brain is functioning wrong, can't I like flip a switch and somehow and make it work? Right? Yeah. And it was the the studying and reading of Oh, no, it's not that simple. We can't just, you know, I remember years ago, in my childhood, somebody said, You have a choice. If you want to wake up happy in the morning, you can wake up happy. And that still haunts me to this day, because I was an impressionable young child. And I was being told by an adult I looked up to, and he said, and he said this to me, like, it's a choice. If you want to be happy, you can be happy. And I'm like, No, that's, that is not the way the psyche, the brain works. We, as human beings, who have suffered from PTSD, that suffer from manic depression suffer from depression, major depression, schizophrenia, suffer from eating disorders, and obviously, the list goes on. It's not a choice. Obviously, there are things out there that are a choice, whether or not you do receive help, whether or not you do pull that trigger. But there is still so much going on behind the scenes that, you know, that sometimes takes that choice and makes it almost impossible. And so, yeah, I mean, and that's why having a book like yours, and having all of the books be written so that other people know they're not alone. Because if you can, if you can read a book, and you can understand or identify with somebody that wrote that book, that one person that reads it and identifies with you, you could very well be saving that one person's life. Yeah. And that's, that's how it started. Right? And I got, I just got goosebumps, because, you know, that is been part of my journey, as well, if I could get the word out there that hey, I've experienced this. And I think that each and every one of us whether or not it's I'm a recovering alcoholic, I have an eating disorder I have whatever it might be. We feel almost obligated to say you're not alone. And, hey, come along with me. Let's figure out how we can do better together. So that's awesome. That is absolutely awesome. I I know when we originally spoke I told you I wanted to read your book. I it is on my list. I have a list. Yes. I have a list of my along I have actually, you can't see it. But I have a stack of books over here as well. But I am. I am slowly getting through.

Dylan Sessler 14:50

You do what you got to do, right?

Leighann Lovely 14:52

Yes, so tell me a little bit more about now you you created your own business. Tell me a little bit more about the coaching And the mentoring side of this. I mean, do you meet with individuals? How does this work?

Dylan Sessler 15:06

So originally, I started doing Tic Tok to write my book. I never really, I think maybe in the back of my mind, I intended to do coaching. But it wasn't really the priority. I built the Tic tok to sell my book. And after a while, of talking about what I talked about, in the book, talking about the book itself, people started asking me like, Hey, do you coach do you do coaching and I was like, as I could write, like, I just kept getting so many messages and, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50 messages a day about different things like, you know, how do I get over this? How do I get over that, and so I started thinking, you know, I, I have a skill set, I may as well utilize it for good, you know, something that's also going to, I'm going to value myself for, you know, and so the message kind of became more important than my own, I guess, imposter syndrome, or my own my own fear of, of not doing what's right. So I started the business in March of 2020. Of course, obviously, COVID happened a week and a half later. But COVID didn't seem to be a bad thing. For me, it seemed to be something that allowed me to learn a lot more about people and ask the right questions and help people in a lot of different ways. And so I became a one on one coach, initially, and started just, you know, one on one talking through how to how to work through mental illness and how to how to deal with different aspects of PTSD or going back to sexual assaults or war, or, you know, all of these different traumatic events or grief, and walking people through these things with dignity and respect, which apparently, a lot of people have never had, you know, I think a lot of people find me, because I'm not a mental health professional, and just a person with lived experience, who has developed, I've developed my own process for this stuff, but a lot of people have used the mental health system and struggled to find someone that could look at them with dignity and respect, and give that person the, the respect that they deserve as a human being and an adult. And so I feel a void in I think the mental health system as people are who who will never go back to that system, knowing that it's, it's, it's painful, it's corrupt, or it's re traumatizing, or it's medication focus, you know, I've heard all of the different criticisms of it. And I became that kind of niche where people were like, you know, this guy gets it, you know, it's that experience based practice, rather than just, here's some medication, come back to me in six weeks and tell me how they feel, and will up your dosage will be something else or, you know, so many different issues, you know, came out from this. And, you know, I try not to not try to just be very simple, and here's my boundaries, here's what I can do for you, here's what I can't do for you. I don't expect people to think that I can fix them or anything like that. And most of the time, they don't, they know that I'm here to help them understand the same question that I had to ask myself. Why am I the way that I am? And that's what I do best?

Leighann Lovely 18:39

Right? You know, and it's interesting. I have had a lot of people in my friends, people that I know, in my network who have, you know, tried to get an appointment just to see a therapist, or a psychiatrist. And there's, there's massive waiting lists. Across the board. There's just huge, massive, I mean, I can't imagine what it would feel like to call somebody and say, Hey, I need to see somebody, I'm struggling with XYZ and be told, okay, you're going to be put on a waiting list. You should be called back within three months. Yeah. I mean, within three months, if you are somebody who is really suffering with severe depression, what do you do? I can tell you that there are many people out there who may not make it three months. Now there there are there are places out there, you know, obviously, there's emergency but if you are finally just making that first call, three months later, that I mean, there's a lot of people who will drastically go down

Dylan Sessler 19:39

A ghost. Yeah. Yeah, they're,

Leighann Lovely 19:41

I mean, it's just happens. And, and I and I remember the days when it was just hard to make that that one call. So trying to do that follow up call and if they never call you back, I mean, and again, I'm not I'm not saying antis, I see my psychiatrist. All the time regularly. Now it's,

Dylan Sessler 20:02

It's a hard job. You know, that's, that's if there's if there's anything, if there's anything that I've learned, right? You, you have to be on your game, every single minute of that session, right. And that's, that's one of the things that differentiates good. Psychologists, good psychiatrist, good practitioners, right, because it's not just about the professionals, it's also about the coaches, it's also about the people that have the lived experience, you have to be on your, on your game to be to be helpful. And if you slip up just once, it can be the difference between this person's coming back every day, or I'm sorry, every week for the next year, or this person's never gonna see someone again, because I don't trust, right, you know, therapists or I don't trust psychologist or I don't I don't trust coaches anymore. Right, you know, and it's so, you know, this isn't for everybody, right. And unfortunately, people find the, those people who jump into the job thinking, I'm going to help these people. And realistically, they're not, for whatever reason, they're not able to maintain the professional courtesy of the respect or the dignity or the, the honor that, that people require, and being able to kind of walk your way through the idea of invalidating someone, right, because that's, that's essentially what we're doing as as professionals is, here's this rational experience of you've been through something really hard. But you have really illogical actions. And we have to like, our job is basically to say, those aren't logical, you need to shift to something logical.

Leighann Lovely 21:48

Right? Right. And how do you do that, though, to make sure that you're not completely in totally what you just said, invalidating them, making them feel even worse, or making them go over the edge and making them hate you.

Dylan Sessler 22:03

Do you want to know the secret? Yes. You make them do it themselves,

Leighann Lovely 22:08

Right? Yes. Oh, my gosh, you and I just had a comment right before this. Right. Before we started recording. I said, I have a personal question. You directed me right into the answer that I needed to come to on my own. And I went, oh, oh, okay. Well, I guess I knew the answer. But you needed to get me to see the answer. On my own. And you You're very good at that. You were brilliant at bringing me to that.

Dylan Sessler 22:36

You didn't even know I was I was doing. No, I did not. It's it's the it's perspective, right. I I don't I don't ask questions. I don't ask questions for no reason, I ask questions to help you realize what you just said to me. Right? You know, more more often than not, I can I can guess what people are going to tell me. Right? It's not that I know, it's just that I have an assumption. I have an idea. But I don't make that assumption on, on faith and on fact, right. I always ask the questions, assuming I don't know, I'm hoping I'm wrong, actually. Right. Because then it puts me in a position where I have to challenge myself to work around that and figure out like, maybe this isn't this person's problem, right? I always assume I'm wrong. Right? And that means that I'm always asking the right questions, because I want to find out what is right for you. Not me, I don't care about me, right? I care about me outside the session, I'll take care of myself. I'm good. But in the session, I'm trying to understand what you think is right. What you think is fair, unfair, painful, a struggle, fact, false lies, truth doesn't matter to me. Right? What matters to me is that you're able to, at the end of the day, logically walk through this conversation with me. Right? And sometimes I have to, I have to be honest, and I have to say, Is that realistic? Or is that the truth? Is that a lie? You know, like, and you approach those conversations when you when people see that you are truly respectful of their, of their sanctity of their identity. It makes a world of difference, right? And what you can ask

Leighann Lovely 24:27

And you know, here's a really interesting story, that one that I'm sure that you know, you will, will find really interesting because early on, I had, I had a problem with being touched by anybody. Just I didn't like people walking, especially strangers if they walked up to me and did the nicety of Oh, hi. And they patted me on the back. I was just like, What are you doing? Like don't I don't know. I don't know who you are. Don't touch me. It was just I never really figured out why I had this. So I was at a very delicate state. I still was not stable. I had recently been diagnosed with bipolar. disorder, but it was a tactile thing with me. So it was it was the the physical touch that really just bothered me. So, my psychiatrist, or actually it was my, my psychotherapist, so my therapist that I was seeing, I was in a very unstable state, but one that was manageable. Anyways, so I'm in her office and I was, you know, upset. And she says, maybe you should go impatient. I said, I'm not going inpatient, I don't want to, I'm fine. And she says, What feel more comfortable if you went home and there was somebody there to meet you fine, I'll call my friends, she'll meet me at home, I'm going to be fine. Called my friend, she set it up, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Well, I'm going to leave now I stood up, she grabbed me and put me in a halt. Now, this is my psychiatry, or my, my psychotherapist, who has been working with me, who knows that I have an aversion, a massive aversion to being touched. So at this point, I freak out, I wiggle out of the hold, I go behind a chair, I put the chair in between her and I, I do not physically threaten her, I do not. I just tell her, don't touch me. Don't touch me. And at this point, now I am hyper agitated. She runs out of the room and calls the police and says that I have to go inpatient on a hold because at this point, now I'm out of control. Now, when that happens in a psychiatrist office know that the police if the police are called, they have no choice, but to escort you to inpatient?

Dylan Sessler 26:39

Yes, and 100% your voluntary or not, right? And makes it worse if you're not.

Leighann Lovely 26:45

So I'm outside. I'm talking to the police at this point. I said, Look, I need to calm down. I'm going to go outside and smoke a cigarette and the cop goes, will you? I'm going to I have to escort you and I'm fine. I'm out there and I'm chatting with the cop. And I said, Look, I don't understand why I'm going mind being escorted impatient. He goes, neither do i You don't seem really upset at all. And I said, I'm upset because my psychiatrist put me in a physical hold. And she doesn't she knows that I can't be touched. And he goes, Oh, that was pretty stupid. And I'm like, Yeah, but I still had to be escorted to go impatient. Yeah.

Dylan Sessler 27:23

You know, you probably could have pressed charges.

Leighann Lovely 27:27

I got there. And I was able to manage, I wiggled my way out of it.

Dylan Sessler 27:35

Yeah, as you should, right.

Leighann Lovely 27:36

And I went home and I was absolutely fine. I fired that's I fired that therapist, I fired that psychiatry, that psychiatrist. And I later found the one that I stayed with for the next 17 years, who I will today till the day he told me he was retiring, I started crying. He started crying. I just found a new one. But and maybe that was the pivotal moment that saved my life. Because, you know, anyways, the point being is that it is key to understand the person you're talking to whether or not you are a a psychiatrist, whether or not you're a salesperson, because I sit and talk to people all the time. And just like you, I assume the questions that I'm asking, I don't know. But the majority of the time that I'm asking those questions, before we've come to a decision that they're going to buy from me. I usually know exactly the questions I need to ask in order to get in order to get them to say, Yep, I want to work with her. That's my special, you know, that's my specialty. But if it comes to matters of the emotional side of things, even though I've been there, I can't do it. I just don't I think maybe because I'm too emotional. Or maybe I get too wrapped up in them. I don't know.

Dylan Sessler 29:04

I don't think I don't think people are too emotional.

Leighann Lovely 29:08

You're right. That's not the right. I don't have the talent you have.

Dylan Sessler 29:13

And that's the difference. Right? Like, it's, it's not a matter of and I wouldn't even call it talent. I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it too emotional, not emotional enough. It's, it's understanding what perspective you're actually looking at the picture from, right. You know, let's let's look at that story that you just told, right? People have these beautiful things called boundaries. Right? And when they're when they're set, right. You know exactly what you want and what you don't want. And what's what's remarkable about that situation is you actually had a boundary that you had set and you knew what you wanted from it, which is which is difficult For people who struggle with mental health of any sort, right, you know, typically, you know, where those worthless mental illnesses come from, is because of a lack of boundaries somewhere in their life. Right? Where people push them, and they learn that that's okay. But their body doesn't write the body never learns what boundaries are not okay. It just lives with the stress of that boundary being pushed. Now, this person pushed boundaries. And, and of course, you're going to lose control. Right? That's the, that's the that's the rational and even logical answer to a boundary of that magnitude being pushed, like touching someone, like, if touched inappropriately with the determination of, there's no consent. That's sexual assault. That's, that's pretty straightforward. Right? Right. And if it's, if it's not inappropriate, right, like, if it's not genitalia, or something like that, guess what? It's assault. Like, these are there's laws about this stuff, like we make laws about boundaries, and yet, people with authority, that's the big problem, right? If you're in a leadership position, you might want to pay attention to this. People with authority like to push boundaries, because they think their authority Trump's the boundary, right. That's where most leaders fail.

Leighann Lovely 31:27

Yep. And you know, and this was okay, so this would have been 19 years ago. This would have been 19 years ago. Yeah. So obviously, things have become much different. I mean, people are hypersensitive. I can't imagine that somebody wouldn't sue or turn around. And, but I was in the situation where the crazy girl was saying, Wait, no, no, I'm not crazy. And everybody is looking at the, you know, mental health patients. Yes. Going? Yeah. Yeah, of course. You're not crazy. Honey, of course, you're not crazy. Okay, let's, let's ship her off. Come on, let's ship her off, hurry up, get her in the car.

Dylan Sessler 32:03

And, and this is one of the big problems with the mental health threat system itself is because you can't trust correct, you know, quote, unquote, crazy people to know what's right and wrong. But you can trust authorities that are willing to push boundaries, that they're right. And if the if, yeah, if the if the supporting evidence isn't there to state, this is what's right and wrong. They can do whatever they want, and get away with it.

Leighann Lovely 32:31

There's a fear factor, I think, with a lot of individuals, like oh my gosh, what if that happens to me? Now remember, this was 19 years ago, I then I then had an amazing experience with the new psychiatrist that I found and the new psychotherapist that I found. That was that was completely awesome. But I completely understand why individuals are looking for alternative options. Right? Because one, you're more accessible. Yep. To person. They don't feel the, the stigma out there

Dylan Sessler 33:09

You're right, Right. Like there's there's not a ton of therapists out there on on social media talking about this stuff. Like there are now a little bit more but, you know, there's not a bunch of people talking. There's not a bunch of therapists sitting there talking about suicide, like I talk about suicide. Correct.

Leighann Lovely 33:25

And so and they don't, and they continue to be Hush, hush. They're not out there. I don't see that changing right now. I mean, even when I go. One was okay. Have you ever gone and looked up? A therapist like on, you know, freighter or Aurora or any you ever okay? So if you go in, you're searching for one, they don't they don't tell you anything personal about themselves. Right? So when I go and pick one, basically, I'm just picking a picture and a name and saying, Sure. I'll go see this one.

Dylan Sessler 34:00

They look nice. Yeah. How am I window shopping?

Leighann Lovely 34:04

Exactly. When they say when they see you. They've already had the opportunity to hear you speak. They know that you've written a book. They see all the social media about you. They already have an idea of your personality. And I'm sure that if, you know, prior to them, signing up and talking with you. You're like, yeah, sure, let's have a quick conversation so that you can get to know me before any monetary value, you know, any monetary thing changes hands. But you can't do that with a mental health facility. Because the minute is, you know, minute I booked an appointment if even if I at the last minute if it's not like a day or 24 hours before you get charged 50 bucks. Yeah. And you can't, you know, and if you go and you hate the person, oh my god, this. This doctor was awful. They're still going to bill your insurance.

Dylan Sessler 35:02

Yeah, that's the you know, how business is conducted. That changes how this relationship works, right? The this, you know, and there's there's risks and rewards, there's there's benefits, and there's there's things that aren't so good, right? Like, my business is a capitalist entity where it's, I'm pushing myself into a market. And I, as a business, I'm competing with everyone around me, right? And so that requires me to be very customer and client focused, correct. Because if I don't, I fail, I lose, I don't make money, right, and then my family doesn't get to be fed. Now, the difference is, is that I can fail, right? I can be wrong, I can bring the wrong information, I can do things wrong, right? Just as much as any therapist could, right? Differences. therapists have gatekeeping requirements, right, they have to do continuing education, they have to have a certification, right, they also have to be approved by the board, they can be audited by the board, you know, there's so many different things, and they have to abide by the rules of whatever facility or profession they have to, you know, appease. And so that requires that that automatically kind of narrows it down to who can actually fit the bill for being a therapist for being a psychiatrist, or whatever you're looking for. That doesn't mean they're all created equal. Right. There's also that idea that it's too big to fail. Right, that's the that's the risk of the mental health system is that it's, it's built, it's government funded, it's this funded it, you know, it's supported. And it does, that doesn't mean it works for everybody, what it what it means it's, it's available for everybody doesn't mean it's, it's something that everybody's going to benefit from equally. And so that's, it's good that we have this but at the same time, there's risks on both sides. There's rewards on both sides.

Leighann Lovely 37:14

And, I am 100%, especially, you know, if, for instance, somebody in my situation, I don't I no longer see a therapist, I've, you know, I've been at this game now for nearly 20 years. You know, I know, all my checks and balances, I know, you know, I have friends and family who will literally go you kind of seem down to Dalian, you know, you're talking slow. I'm like, Yeah, okay, so I didn't get a lot of sleep last night, geez, I'm not depressed. But I mean, I literally have, like an army of people in my life who will, like, ask me just outright now, because I've become so comfortable with it, if I'm struggling, based on the way I talk the way I present myself, and I used to get offended by it. But I've gotten to the point. I mean, I haven't been offended by it for over 10 years. But early in my recovery, I used to get offended by it, like, shut up, don't ask me how I'm doing I'm fine. You know, it was this trigger. Everybody has triggers early on. I am 100%, you know, in favor of if you need to see a psychiatrist and you need to be on medication. That's the path you want to take. I'm 100% You know, I back that I so I don't want anybody to get the wrong impression. Like I'm not against Sara, the therapist or a psychiatrist that, I just think that that this, what you do is so beneficial, because I could list off three people right now that could probably benefit from just having a conversation with you and working through some of their demons that can't, or have had bad experiences and trying to find somebody who that they mesh well with, that is available to take on new patients. And we are humans, we don't you know, sometimes we go to the doctor, and or we were trying to find our new, you know, General, General doctor and it's like, I'm tried, this person didn't like this person. That's that's the way that it works. And it's hard when every time you go you have to pay a ton of money and they they don't offer a different way to do that. But again, anybody listening who who is suffering from a, you know, severe mental health or things that they need, that they may need medication, obviously, they you know, that's something that has to be dealt with with an actual psychiatrist who is legally allowed to prescribe medication, but as far as, you know, therapy, that kind of thing. Just talking through those things. I think that what you do is and enormous benefit, because half the battle is just being able to talk about it with somebody that they feel comfortable with.

Dylan Sessler 40:09

Yeah, I think in you know, what's funny is I don't have any problems with good therapists or good psychiatrist or psychologist, I think, I think what, what a lot of my, what a lot of my, like more dedicated clients often do is they go to a therapist, they go to a psychiatrist, and they always come to me. Yeah. And so you get, you get to different things, right. I'm a very different person than most therapists and psychiatrist and psychologist. And that's, that's important to understand is that I'm able, and also more free to ask different questions, right. without any repercussions I have no, I have no governing body that says, you have to report this to this. Right? I don't have any of that restriction. And so there's, there's a freedom in, in my sessions that most people don't have. Is it risky for me? Because people could, you know, tell me stuff that ultimately could come true. Absolutely. But I'm also aware of that, and I'm also prepared for that, because I've been through this stuff before I understand what that feels like. And I'm okay with facing that reality, if it means helping people, right. But I also have boundaries, you know, and I create that, that necessary disconnect for understanding these, this, this job. Right. But it's, it's important understand. I help people express, you know, you know, I don't, I don't always help you talk about things, I help you express things, right. Emotions are one of the hardest things to understand and master. And when you start becoming conscious of what you're actually feeling, physically, sometimes it's not even about the words, sometimes it's just about knowing that this person that is sitting across from me, actually understands that it's okay for you to feel like that. The goal here is for you to feel. And that that freedom is so incredibly rare. And it's so such a beautiful part of this whole process, that it's important. It's important to be able to sit there across from someone and know that Dylan's not judging me isn't giving him is he doesn't care. He's here, he's here to, you know, make this happen. He wants this to happen in some ways, because I haven't felt it in 30 years, you may as well feel it now. Right? You may may as well get it out, not keep it in anymore. Yep. You know, and that's my goal is expression. And sometimes that that doesn't always mean verbally. Yeah, sometimes it means in writing or emotional.

Leighann Lovely 42:53

You know, it's interesting. I had a conversation with somebody about the fact that the older generation, just bottled up all of these emotions constantly. And the younger generation coming in, is now learning much differently. Because we have this, you know, the older generation who was, oh, you're a boy Don't cry. I mean, you know, these, and then you have this this gap of children who grew up saying, you know, from their parents saying, No, it's okay to feel. But now you even have it going further, where parents, and I've heard this on, you know, playgrounds of parents who are saying, what your feeling is anger and anger is okay to feel. But it's not okay to XYZ. And I mean, literally teaching like emotional intelligence to four or five, six year olds. And my hope is that by the time they become adults, that they will have a heck of a lot less problems than some of the older people that are around now. And when I say old, I'm talking about I'm in that generation where it wasn't what I was, I was, I wasn't told that it's not okay to feel this. But I watched my I watched my grandparents and I watched so many people, you know, like, embarrassed by emotions, and it was like, so hopefully, eventually we'll get rid of the whole idea that emotions are bad.

Dylan Sessler 44:21

I think, it's not necessarily realistic to look at like, this idealistic idea of solving problem, right. I think I think we are going to create different problems course, and me crying in public all the time, right in this in the human endeavor to understand why because we are very much creatures that that that thrives on this idea of why this question, right? We we will learn how to solve different problems and create new problems. And that's, you know, that's the beautiful thing. thing about being a parent is you're a failure. Right? No matter what, right? Like you are going to create problems in your child's life. Because of your personality that you, you then have to face later on in life. And here's where I think is so important, right? This is the conversation like, because I could leave it at that and it'd be dark and dismal. here's the here's the positive part of it. Open communication allows you to solve those problems, being able to openly express and, you know, rationally validate other people and logically discuss these things. This is what, you know, this is what I think Baby Boomers, Gen X. And even Millennials have trouble with more is we can't have a conversation. Without getting angry at each other. We can't have a conversation without blowing up or exploding. Look at look at the comments section on any video. And you'll see older generations, blaming younger generations and younger generations blaming older generations, we struggled to have simple conversations and validate. Yeah, that has that that has validity. And so does mine. Your position and my position have validity. And now we have to discuss what's the best option, right? Or can we compromise and we can't, yet that's that's the goal is we need to learn how to communicate to compromise, rather than communicate to be right.

Leighann Lovely 46:34

Yep. Oh, wow. That yes, absolutely. So that we're coming to time, and I, I have the question of the season that I'm asking everybody. So if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be an want?

Dylan Sessler 46:56

Man? That's a good question. Because there's, there's so many, I wrote a whole book about my whole life, and I don't think I could pinpoint one. But if, if there's anything I think the last two years, I think, starting in business, writing a book, you know, becoming a social media influencer, after an entire lifetime of being an introvert and not wanting to talk to people that has created a human being in me, that has, has never been able to see value. Like I can now and being able to expose my thoughts, my feelings, my my knowledge, my wisdom, you know, and, and yet, I retain my humility as much as I can by, you know, just buying out of who I am. I, I'm not the best, I'm not the brightest, but I'm never going to quit. I'm never going to stop I'm always going to do what I think is is right. It's, it's given me a perspective on life. That is, I think, absolutely beautiful. Even on my hardest days, I find beauty in the world, I find beauty and myself and joy and happiness, and I'm, I'm still empathetic towards everything, but I'm also able to withstand the brutality of of life. And I, I'm happy with that.

Leighann Lovely 48:27

That's awesome. That's a great answer. So if somebody wanted to get in contact with you, how would they go about doing that?

Dylan Sessler 48:37

Well, if you want to actually talk to me, I'd recommend you schedule a session through my website, www.dylansessler.com. But if you want to just follow me, you want to just you know, see what I do, follow me on Tick Tok. That's where I'm mostly at. I do a lot of podcasts, The Dylan Experience is my podcast. Yeah, you can read my book. You can you can listen to my book on Audible. I read that. Yeah, there's all sorts of places you can find me just go ahead and Google me.

Leighann Lovely 49:08

Excellent. Hey, Dylan, this has been an awesome, just a very awesome conversation. I really enjoy talking with you. And I thank you so much for your time.

Dylan Sessler 49:18

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 49:22

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, too, follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Dylan Sessler

Autor of - Defy The Darkness

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/dylan-sessler-69a29b19a

Podcast - The Dylan Experience - https://dylansessler.podbean.com/#

Tik Tok - dylan_sessler

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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Tune in for a truly authentic conversation with Dana and me as she walks through her path of discovery and why she is so amazing at helping others find their path.

Join us!

Dana Williamson

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:06

I had an amazing conversation with my guest today prior to this, this episode and I am so excited to get this conversation started with her. She takes such an amazing approach to her business, her coaching and so I'm excited to introduce Dina Williamson. She is a business and lifestyle counselor, author and ministry leader. First starting as an entrepreneur in February of 99 to be a to be home for her children creating financial stability Dana changed her business name from C.K.Q. Gifts to B.A.D the last anointed and destined for many of her first years as an entrepreneur Dana struggled to find her footing she was an is excellent at crafting and designing. But helping people was an is her passion. As a faith filled entrepreneur, she stepped back spoke to God and thus found her footing in what he wanted. Hence the name change in 2015. As a business and lifestyle counselor Miss Williamson brings to the table her experience in business and how her life cultivated many changes. In the 23 years she's been an entrepreneur, she also has been a student, Dana shares with her clients how to get through the issues of life by getting over people and applying the right concept for continued growth and success. Under the bat brand, Dana offers many services to help when women find their Beauty from Ashes. Miss Williamson is a mother of four adult children, and a Nana to five grandchildren. Dana, it is so awesome to talk with you again and have you on my podcast. So welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. Excellent. So I am I'm really excited to talk to you about you know, really your path. And you know, why don't you just start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Dana Williamson 03:20

well, oh, you know what, let me start this way. I am Dana Williamson. As you all know, now

Dana Williamson 03:27

I am a business and lifestyle counselor for the bad brand and bad stands for blessed, anointed and destined. It is a limited liability company where I help women of faith who are in business been in business a couple of years, I help them find themselves past a fork in the road that they're in. So I help them figure out why they're stuck. And one of the most I think I bring to the table in order to help women in their business is the fact that I probably would have been where they are. And it helps to have someone that can really give you that be transparent and be that friend to pull you out of a stump so that's that's what I do for the bad plan. I'm commonly referred to as bad code today. No, or the original bad clean little round table.

Leighann Lovely 04:17

I love that. That's so great. And I think what I think the first time that we really met you had a shirt that said ba D bad quick I think it's a queen didn't it? Did it say B.A.D Queen or B.A.D something? and I just love it. I mean it's great. You are your brand.

Dana Williamson 04:38

Yes ma'am. I should do I should do I think I wear my brand on my sleeve.

Leighann Lovely 04:45

That's great. That's awesome. So you are you are a business lifestyle coach, and you have a style all your own, which I absolutely love. So, you know, tell me a little bit more about that. You know, how did you become, you know, lifestyle coach. And yeah, tell me a little bit about your journey to that.

Dana Williamson 05:09

Well, then, you know, it was one of the hardest things to accept one of the hardest things to kind of bite the bullet on. I started in business, creating Bath and Body, gift bags, or gift baskets, and doing networking events. And one thing I learned about myself over the years was, I liked creating different things for people to buy for gifts. But I loved helping people to establish businesses, to build businesses. And after being in business, trying to get the gifts off the ground, I realized I liked it, but it wasn't my passion. And I think around 2007, anywhere between 2005 and 2007, I decided, you know, what, coaching is my thing. This is what I want to do, I want to see other people make it, I don't want people to just purchase from me, I want to see other people make it. And so my journey, I went from having gifts to planning events, business, networking, events, weddings, whatever, vendor events to just coaching. And that has been my safe haven my bread and butter. Yet, when you speak about, you know my own style, and this, I had to take a step back, even in coaching, and realize where I was when it came down to my faith. And I don't I don't want to offend anyone in your audience or whatnot. But it's it's my faith that has been really strong in building the bad brand, and realizing where I am as a coach. This is why I say to people, I'm a business lifestyle counselor, commonly referred to as bad coach Dana, because eventually I do start coaching on a level where everyone kind of understands, oh, yeah, this is what she does. She coaches that she counsels us to get us right. But then she coaches us to keep going down that right path. So yeah, I think the foundation is my faith. But when I started, it didn't look anything like coaching. But that's my passion. I love helping women.

Leighann Lovely 07:21

Well, and don't say, you know, I don't want to offend anybody in my audience, by all means, the audience that I have, I think that they know, I'm very much about, you know, inclusion, whether that be, you know, hey, I'm out there, I talk about my bipolar disorder, I talk about the acceptance of, of everybody. And that includes people who have different faiths. So if that is a huge part of who you are, and it clearly is, because you are also an author and a minister, and owner. You know, you've had other companies, you know, tell me more about, you know, that, and obviously, you know, your faith plays such a huge role in your life. So that is something that absolutely, I opened the door for you to talk about how that has impacted your life. Because the reason that we all do what we do, is because there's a driver behind it, and those are the things that are, are truly passionate, you know, are what drives me to do what I do, which is to have this podcast, to allow everybody to have their own voice in the things that they're passionate about.

Dana Williamson 08:29

Exactly. Exactly. Well, I, when I originally started the gifts business, which is called CQ gifts. If anyone knows me, I love acronyms. So nonetheless, when I started the gifts business, the first few years in, I reestablished my faith in the Lord. And I said, you know, I started this because I wanted to make money and be available for my children. I said, But I realized that there's something in me that has to make sure I give back to God. And so I wanted to prayer about it. And I attempted to change my tagline saying, this is the gifts business because God has given me gifts. And so I'm giving this back in a form, you know, for him to other people. And I think that was another one of the main reasons why I went into coaching, because it wasn't enough. It wasn't cool. I really was, you know, creating a gift basket or something with something that someone can buy for a certain event, but really touching someone every day. And what they're trying to build every day was was really where I was at. And so when I realized that there was a part of me that was holding me back in the coaching had he reestablishing everything so so if I could really get have you on another basis, see CKQ Gift, became CKQ LLC. And that wasn't enough, that wasn't what I was being pulled to see CKQ LLC, then was renamed in 2015, to bat blessed anointing destiny. And it was in that entire process from 2007 to 2013. That show me, you know, here's all of you, here's the experiences you've had, as a child, here's the experiences you've had as a teenager, a young adult, someone walking into ministry, who doesn't really want to walk into ministry, you know, really, I ran from it, who can bring all of that to the table for women entrepreneurs, market, or women entrepreneurs of faith, but it's, it doesn't stop there. It's just like you I am inclusive, anyone who needs me, I'm gonna be available for you, you just, I just have this faith base, this Faith Foundation. And, you know, I think the hardest part in that whole transition, was realizing that I had so much to bring to the table, I could counsel or coach, a person in business, because I did reject myself, I did not have that self esteem, that high self esteem at that time, I just knew I was supposed to be doing something answering, you know, my calling, but I was still running from it. And so even at this point, as we're talking today, there have been so many learning components as to what helps me to help another. It's not, it's, it's, it's not, I don't care what anyone says, stepping out on faith or not, to build a business to be in a career that you know, you want to be in, is not an easy thing. And even if you've been in it, three to five years now, it's still not easy, because times change, you know, what I'm saying? And, and, and lifestyles change, and, and we know Internet changes every day. So when, I look at what, how I coach, also look at what I write, um, you thank you for mentioning the fact that yes, sometimes I forget that I'm an author. But in that same breath, there's the times where someone just like me, who can coach who can speak, who can do all of those different things in person, there are times where we just can't. And then we write. And those are the times where we probably reach someone without even knowing if you know what if I can give you an testimony or example, so to speak, something that just happened in the past five days, a lady reached out to me on Facebook inbox on Messenger and said, Hey, um, I just read your chapter in blah, blah, book. And I would love to get some assistance and starting my own podcast, I want to be a speaker, and yada, yada, yada. And I read the message like, what? You read what? And I said, Could you show me a picture of the book you're talking about? That was the first question I asked her. It wasn't even Oh, thank you. I'm so glad. Yes, a coach Daly can help you. I said, No. Could you show me the book you're talking about? I want to make sure she's talking to the right person. And sure enough, it's a book that's called I am woman. And I was one of the authors in the anthology. Leighann, we wrote this book six years ago. And she contacted me Friday.

Leighann Lovely 14:14

Print never dies.

Dana Williamson 14:16

Never dies, never dies. She said someone had given her the book about three or four years ago. And she finally sat down last week and read it and my chapter stuff out. So she searched me out. And so we're connecting, she's joining my membership and all of that. But I say that to say, to tie in, sometimes, we, we don't talk face to face, we don't get on podcasts, we don't record our own vlogs we don't do those things because sometimes we just take a step back and we just write and at that point, I have wrote this particular chapter. And here it is six years later and someone found me and that, too, is a, a strong inclination of where you're where my faith is. Because you never know, what you participated in years ago, will open up doors. You just have to trust that one day it will.

Leighann Lovely 15:14

Absolutely. You know, it's funny because I was having a conversation with somebody not too long ago, and we were talking about networking. And she's like, you know, I, I met with somebody, but I'm not really sure that we'll ever be able to help each other, you know, this person is doing this. And we don't really align. And I said, you know, what, in a year from now, you may all of the sudden align, or you may go, wow, wait, I remember talking to somebody, I can help that. But you have no idea what impact you put out today could have on somebody a year from now, six years from now, especially if it's in writing somewhere, especially if it's in a book, you know, how often some people come over to my house, and they look at my bookshelf, and they're like, Oh, this looks like a really good book. Can I Can I borrow it? And I'm like, sure. Some of them are fiction, some of them are nonfiction. But, you know, again, I know that a lot of people now read on, you know, Kindles and everything else. But I still have a lot of my favorite books. I buy specifically in print, because I go back expecially, especially business books, I go back and I highlight, you know, areas in those books.

Dana Williamson 16:21

Exactly.

Leighann Lovely 16:22

I reread them, I have reread what Who Moved My Cheese, like 8 billion times. It's, you know, it's a book about change. It's a book about and what is constantly happening, change, it never goes away. And I there are times where I have to sit back and go, yep, I'm really pushing against this change. And the more you push against it, the harder it is to accept it. And eventually you have to accept it. It's just one of those things anyways. Now, you said something that really intrigued me. You mentioned your faith going into the minister, you you ran from it. Why did you run from it?

Dana Williamson 17:11

Because I was not. That was not where my life was at that time. When I when I had two people. And I'll tell you trying to tell you the story in this short version as I possibly get

Leighann Lovely 17:28

Three hours. Right? I know, right?

Dana Williamson 17:31

So, I was working for city government. AndI was the department head, okay. And my department, my supervisor hired somebody in to join my department, and temporary person. And at first me and this person were like, at each other's throats and Bobo blah. And she said, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know why God has me here. And bla bla bla, and I'm just like, I need a drink. Dealing with you. And my life was just not, you know, and talking to her. This was in 2004, because I had just gotten. I had just recently been married and talking to her over the next few weeks, few months or what not that she was there. We both realized, I mean, I knew the Lord had a relationship with him, but not a real relationship. We both realized that she was on that on the job to help me and a lot of spiritually, a lot of things that I would share with her because finally we got got past being at each other's throats and created a good friendship. Realize that there was something about me that I didn't realize, was a prophetic person. I'm most most people understand being a prophet from the Bible. You know, there's various prophets mentioned or whatever. And I'm just like, I am not a Bible person. I read the Bible, I go to church, but I am not that person. And as soon as she said, explain to me the things that I went through as a teenager was God preparing me as a prophet. I'm just like, Shut up talking to me. I got it. And I just, I couldn't, I couldn't fathom that. I was a person who went out every every other weekend. Um, fish fries at the local bar, you know, that was me. And my then husband, you know, when we went places, we bought the bar joints. That's what we were so that I for someone to tell me this is who I suppose I don't I don't agree with that. And it didn't take much for the ball to start rolling that. Eventually I started having spiritual interactions with the Lord like Oh, okay. So you're not gonna let me run from this then. And four years later, I was at a church service. And it was it was one of those highly emotional church services. And the minister came to me and said, You have a call to ministry on your life. And I literally smiled and nodded and backed up to leave the church. And I'm just like, I can't do this, you know, I, this is not. And at that point, I had already started changing some things in my life, accepting the prophetic part, I'm not ready to accept being a minister, and the understanding that I had. And one day, one day, not too long after that, probably 2009. I just said, I'm no longer going to run. I'm just not. Because I started to get into positions where I had to answer for who I was. And also for who I was, I had to help. And because even as an entrepreneur is an even as a person who was in a career with city government, that's all I knew how to do a man basically what we call it in churches, being a servant. That's all I knew how to do coaching is being a servant, helping somebody build a business, even though I get paid for it, you follow it serving someone to help them in the classes that they're in. And I just had to stop running. So I stopped and everything just kind of hit ahead. I started writing more my marriage, which, you know, wasn't supposed to be, which I knew many years prior, started to dissolve. And my relationship with God started to increase. And with that, I completely stepped away from the creative side of me, you know, as far as you know, because I'm still doing the gift side of business. Even though I was coaching, I completely stepped away from that, and 100% all in on coaching. And it was 2015, 2014, 2015, when the name changed, and God had me writing, I wrote my first Christian fiction. And I created a teaching off of even off of that, where I couldn't be coach Dana, I had to be the business lifestyle counselor, because as as a person who brings faith to the table, I can counsel them on ways that someone else probably could not. And then dwelve into the coaching side of it. So yeah, I ran for I ran for you can see about four or five years, until I couldn't run anymore. And here I am.

Leighann Lovely 23:05

And that's, that's an amazing story. And let me ask you something, when you stopped running, Didn't it feel? Totally different? Wasn't it? So much less? Exhausting?

Dana Williamson 23:23

No,

Leighann Lovely 23:25

that is an answer I was expecting.

Dana Williamson 23:29

No, and I was just and I'm going to explain that because some people think that once you decide to get on the what people call the right side of the Lord, then you're good, right? No, no, no, you have a responsibility, which means in the Bible talks about carrying a heavy burden. But when you carry that burden you have helped carrying, so it should lesson it doesn't less than what you think in your mind. It doesn't less than what you feel. Because now you have this whole I'm here to help. So I'm here to serve. So now you start to see everything that needs your service, if not your service you to refer to someone else. So it wasn't easier. It was it was okay what I've decided to do this, I need your help because I don't have anyone else. The young lady that was on the job was no longer there. Then I resigned from the city in 2013. So now it's Menzies and it was not an easy thing because people did not understand walking 100% with God, and if you are a person who depends on you know, you want people to understand and support you and Pat's on the back and blah, blah, blah. And they don't know ma'am, it was not easy. It was not it got better and even still today as things change in my life spiritually, and as an entrepreneur, no, ma'am, it's still something, I continue to walk, I walk with less hesitancy, right. But I continue to walk forward.

Leighann Lovely 25:17

That's very interesting. You know, and I suppose sometimes decisions, the reason we are so hesitant to make decisions is because we know that once we've made that decision full on, the work doesn't stop. It's now and now we have to put forth all of that effort, and all of that work. For me, I ran from, you know, myself for so long and accepting the idea that I had bipolar and accepting the idea that people would find out for me, that was hiding something for you, I was accepting something. So it was, it's a total different, it's a total difference. For me, when I finally accepted that people, you know, if I announced it, people are either gonna like me, or they're not, it was out of my control for this completely within your control, but now you had to put forth the effort. So Well, that's it.

Dana Williamson 26:16

But if I can add to that, you know, when you go into a career, um, when you change careers, and you know, this is something you want to be in for the long run, you go through a training, you have to accept, for instance, I left restaurant bar supply in order to work for city government, those are were two different way different. You know, and, you know, I had, I knew it was good for me financially. But I had to go through a training I had to, and, um, and, you know, I was thinking, I less, I took a pay cut, to come here, only to be blessed six months later, but nonetheless, um, that was 2001. And then in 2000, for less than you, okay, so you get the story on that. But nonetheless, you change careers, you go through this whole transition, it was the same thing for me to decide that, okay, let me walk in this ministry, or walk in the fact that I'm supposed to minister and this this is me, it's it's comparable to having a job. You know, you make make that transition. I'm considering, like, what you're saying about having bipolar, and people finding it out. It is. People, people found out I left this job and took a pay cut to go here. Financially, it'll work out when you when you when people look at you and they know you just as Leanne, but then they find out okay, well, Leanne also lives with having bipolarism it's, is it something that you have that fear that people gonna look at you differently? Right? Because because you have this, this now they know about this thing that you've actually been living with? And and then it comes down to? I don't care.

Leighann Lovely 28:17

Right? You know, I hope and, you know, and if somebody does, hey, I don't, I don't need them in my life. Right? Exactly. And same goes for you. When when they when you talk about your fate, you know, because again, I go back to you know, apologizing for something that you are something that you love, you should never ever have to do that. And I'm a true believer in that doesn't matter who you are, what you are, as long as you are doing or trying your absolute best. Now, there's always exceptions to the rules, because I know that somebody out there is thinking, Well, what if there's always exceptions to the rules?

Dana Williamson 28:58

Right,

Leighann Lovely 28:59

The point is, that you're, you know, you're on a righteous path in some way or another and you're trying to, you know, basically do to others what you would have them do to you, it basically comes down to a man, right, I you know, I couldn't walk into a room and be like, Hey, guys, I just want everybody to know I'm a murderer. I'm sure that people would be like, oh, yeah, we'll accept you for who you are. Well, no, that's not how it works. I just want to put that out there that's I'm not saying that I am accepting of this that is not a standard you know, personality trait that is acceptable to me, anyways, but no matter who you are, and you know what you are, I truly believe that people should be accepting because there are such a variety of individuals out there that that just need to be heard want to be understood. And and I love the I love the energy that you have. I love the energy that you bring to a room. And again, I go back to the first time that you and I really said, I think we had seen each other one time. And then we saw each other again. And I just remember that I heard you speak and I'm like, I have to know her. And then we sat down. And we talked and I probably could have talked to you for you know, many hours. Because you just you truly do you bring in energy that make people It makes people want to be around you, which makes sense to one why you got a calling to, you know, from God, why you're successful at being a, you know, a counselor, a coach, and it's why somebody would want to reach out to you for your for that type of service. to land. What I'm really interested is, you know, now you authored a book, and we, you said about six years ago, you'd had a what? Tell me? I'm not, I'm not gonna answer this. Tell me a little bit more about the book that you that you would authored.

Dana Williamson 31:00

Okay, so I personally have authored, I'm almost 50 books, and that would be print and eBooks. That's right, you you actually have a business? That is correct. Yes, I actually have a publishing company that I don't because of how we just talked about how things change quickly. Yeah, I have a public company that I have clients. And right now, we're not accepting any new ones as of yet. But yes, I have a publishing company. I started that to kind of answer your question, because I think I know what you're getting to. I started that in 2012, another urgence, um, you know, from the Lord to do to help others. And what I can say about the particular book that I just mentioned, where the young lady found me, I was asked to join, it's 20 Women who wrote a chapter on, on being woman, you know, in in that time, and I say that time as if it's a whole decade ago, but it's not, you know, it was only six years. But at that time, you know, things were very different. We were going into an election year, we were, we had just I think Obama had been in office two, two times, things were different for us, we were changing, but we had to look at it from an individual perspective, not as a an entire nation perspective. And so one of the things that was, you know, really kind of important to me, was making sure that I said my piece in my piece, how I knew it. Um, and, you know, I have to tell you that the head of that anthology, we went back and forth a little bit because she didn't like how this was worded, or she didn't like how that was worded. And I said, Look, I'll step away, because one thing I do as a publisher, and as a writer, is I write from whatever is within and once once the Spirit says, I'm done, I'm done. I try to change any of my clients wording. So when I tried to ask people not to do the same thing for me, because once you make it what you want, it becomes not my story, right? Once we, we got that part out. She was like, You know what, you're right. And so this chapter that I wrote that this young lady found me, I feel, you know, I after talking to her, I had to humbly sit down and say, Lord, I thank you because I had to argue the fact that this had to be my story, this one chapter 1000 2000 words, Adam, it had to be my story. Otherwise, it was not going to I would, I would totally bow out. And, you know, as a as a writer, as a writer. What I tell people, let me say this as a publisher, when I tell potential clients, if you're looking for a best seller, I am not your company. I am looking, you know what I mean? Because if you're writing to get your piece out to the masses, and let's get it out to the masses, the masses for you might be one on 100. You have to be okay with one or 100. Because if you're looking to sell more books you can get I don't even think people understand what best selling means. It doesn't mean it's the greatest. It means that for however many numbers you sold, you became a best seller. If you want to reach the masses with the meat, then I'm your girl. But that's that's where I am. You know what, even in writing, even in the career choices that I've had, and even in being bad coach Dana, it is the reality of being the individual. Right? Not being what everybody wants you to be.

Leighann Lovely 35:14

Right. And that's what authenticity is. It's it's digging in and saying, I am who I am. I'm not going to hold who you want me to be, and then be. And that's absolutely why I love you. That's absolutely why you and I, you know, hit it off, because you walked into the room with your own personal swagger. And I totally loved it. And that, that's the kind of people that I like to talk to on this podcast. It's because of the your authenticity. So we are coming. So I have, we're coming to time, I have one more question for you. The question of the season, if you could pin an end, you know, we've covered so much ground, so I'm going to be interested to hear what you have to say on this one. But if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or your career path. When would that be and why?

Dana Williamson 36:13

Oh my gosh. Okay. Yeah, it would be, May 15 2021. And I'll tell you what happened.

Leighann Lovely 36:24

That's so it's all specific.

Dana Williamson 36:28

I'll tell you, it's specific because it kind of ties in how we even originally met. If this hadn't happened. You and I would have never met. Okay. So in May of 2021, I went to cigar week in Houston. And I went just to go, I need to travel, I need to get out I needed to do the things that I knew I needed to do as an entrepreneur, not to just to have fun, but as an entrepreneur. So I went to learn as well as I went to grow, you know, as my circle of friends, let's just say that. And on the last day, I met a lady who I would like to pin as even a social media influencer. I met her we vibed very well. And when I say we vibed very well, she pulled out that I was a minister or spiritual person, without me having to tell her. Um, she actually mentioned to me within the first hour of us meeting. We're at cigar week. She smokes cigars. Now? I do. I do not because because I was interested in the lifestyle. Nonetheless, that's a whole nother podcast. nonetheless. When I left there, she contacted me and she became my coach. And I got to learn more about the culture, more about who I was, and who I was still holding back from. As far as an entrepreneur as far as coach Dana. Over the months time, I started to acclimate myself in the lifestyle, looking at the different things, finding out what's going on in my own city. In regards to that, and I met a I met a few great people. But I met two great people who introduced me to two great, two other great people. One of the introductions was at the event that you and I met at the gentleman that had that event basically introduced us. And, um, it was a cigar networking event, cigars and everything. And as a minister that has that. I've gotten a lot of backlash on that. Okay, that's all. But cuz that's supposed to be taboo, or whatever, whatever. I don't even know. But I had another minister, tell me Give me a scripture to give people and I'm just like, I never thought of that. Nonetheless, if I hadn't been introduced to the lifestyle, if I hadn't gotten into my own prayer closet and have my own conversation with the Lord about this. If I hadn't allowed myself to be open to possibilities, I wouldn't have realized that everything that I've talked about, as far as being back home today, no, or the original backplane of the roundtable was being held back because I was holding myself back from all of the possibilities that were out there that were outside of traditional church that was outside of places that I don't go to clubs or anything like that. You follow me? People, people feel as if, in order to be in the lifestyle you have to be in this lifestyle. This, this whole going out partying and all of that, and it isn't that. And I had to have my own conversation with God to realize that. And I had to be open to whatever the possibilities are. Leighann, can I tell you, I've ministered more. In the past year, we'll know, in the past eight months to people, whether at a cigar lounge or at a cigar event than I did prior to that. And that really changed me in understanding what I hold. From time to time people will see on social media, especially they asked as women, you know, what do you bring to the table? And I realized in the past eight months, maybe I don't bring anything to the table, I build the table. You know,

Leighann Lovely 40:54

That's awesome. And here's here's, you know, people automatically assume you know that. And before I say this, first of all, every time I go to a funeral or a wedding and the minister or the the pastor is invited to the party afterwards, he's got a drink in his hands. After you know, the after party. It's a common thing. Okay. I mean, I just recently went to a funeral. And the pastor came to the after party, and had a couple of drinks. So you know, that's not taboo. At least not in the circles that I've been in. I mean, it's not, there was nothing wrong with now do I see them get drunk? No. I mean, that probably would be taboo. but no cigar smoking is has been long as a pastime that one, men have always, you know, you always see the typical, you know, cigar smoker is the old guy sitting in a chair somewhere, rocking slowly, with a glass of whiskey, which is now not were not what you see in a cigar smoker, I've seen a ton of women who will sit back and smoke a cigar and have a glass of whiskey or a beer and, and enjoy it. Now, to your point in what you were saying about, you've done more ministry with these people, these individuals that you have met in the last eight months, when you have a relaxed crowd having a conversation with a cigar, and a drink in their hand, they are more open to have conversations about a wide variety of topics. They're in their environment, they're open to conversations that you have a captive audience. And you know what, these people are amazing people who want to have these in depth conversations, they are most likely individuals who are also not necessarily attending church on a regular basis because people shun them. Because how dare you smoke a cigar and drink a glass of whiskey on a regular basis. This is a perfect audience. And it's forward. It's forward thinking for a church to say, hey, instead of always making the people come to you go to the people.

Dana Williamson 43:20

That's what the Bible says.

Leighann Lovely 43:22

Correct? If you you know, and you and I have this conversation, I am not a wildly religious person. I'm a very spiritual person in nature. i Yes. And and I do not believe that you need to go to a church in order to you know, praise your God in order to be a religious individual. Exactly. I am always willing to have a conversation will not always please don't, you know, hit me up in a random place about politics religion, or but in the right setting. I'm I'm I am always open to talking about spiritual things as long as it is not with an individual that is completely one sided and is trying to push their their beliefs on me. Agenda. Yeah, you're right. You're right. But if you're, if you're open to having a conversation like that, and open to hearing all different sides of it, I love those conversations. So your answer was brilliant. And I applaud you for standing by who you are as a person. Thank you. So this has been an awesome conversation. Is it has it has been so I thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. You are so welcome. I again. I'm so glad to have been here. This has been great. This has been great. If anybody wants to reach out to you to talk to you about you know, your coaching or anything. How would they go about doing that?

Dana Williamson 44:54

Well, I you know what, I am all over social media. For one I probably shouldn't be but I have. All over social media, you can always find me as B.A.D Queen B, that's B.A.BqueenD Or you just email me at info@daymarie.com again you can find the bad brand on Facebook on Instagram. Listen, I'm even on Tik Tok. I am also on LinkedIn as Dana Williamson. And but otherwise, yeah, you can definitely call me. I'm sorry, email me at info at bad day Murray calm or just find me on social media. I am more willing to talk or introduce you to what I have available with my sub services. Excellent. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I've had a wonderful time.

Leighann Lovely 45:51

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/mrsceo

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Laura, Creator of the Endotype Formula and Author of My Walk, My Way is such an amazing woman with so much to offer. Join me for this amazing conversation to learn more.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business Owners, and Employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:05

I'm really excited to have my guests with me today. Not only she wild, wildly creative, successful, she's an inspiration. Laura Hulleman, the creator of the endo type formula and author of my walk my way, is a powerful truth teller. Her superpower is helping people believe that being themselves as they are designed is more than enough. Once a person is grounded in their identity, they can begin to operate from their zone of genius and experience more peace every day. Laura spent years researching and recognizing the patterns that create the endo type formula, the most comprehensive and advanced personality assessment available at this time. Right now she takes coaches and entrepreneurs on an adventure into their endo type formula to improve their businesses embody their brand identity and attract their ideal clientele. She and her boys live in a tree house in Wisconsin, where they enjoy cozy fires in the winter and camping, fishing and kayaking all summer long. Laura, thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. I've been really excited to talk with you. I just think that you have such an awesome, well, I think that your product, your this Endotype Formula is just awesome. And I'm excited to hear about it. So thank you for coming on and talking with me today.

Laura Hulleman 02:39

I'm really happy to be here. Love to talk to HR people about about the Endotype Formula, what it can do for them, and just the business in general.

Leighann Lovely 02:49

So why don't you start off by just telling me a little bit about yourself, your background, that type of stuff.

Laura Hulleman 02:54

Sure, So I have been serially self employed for the majority of my life, somebody asked me today sounds like you've been in business a while. It's like, Well, I started my first business when I was 18. So you know, three years. That's a lie. Um, but I, you know, for the most part have been self employed. I've worked inside corporations and companies as well. But I found out that that didn't really suit me quite as much, I'm a little bit more independent and creative and want to kind of do my own thing. This has really been one of the first years in the last probably nine months that I've gotten to understand that I'm moving from self employment now to business ownership, which is a whole different can of worms and, and having to learn some of that detachment and some of that, so I'm learning many, many new things as I go. My background. I was a life coach and fitness coach for a long period of time. And at one point, I loved personality assessments. I loved studying people. It always fascinated me to figure out even even way back when I was waitressing in my 20s, right, you'd walk up to a table. And if you wanted to maximize your tips, you had to figure out who was in charge of that table. Mm hmm. Because that's the person you defer to as the waitstaff if it's the lady who's in charge of the table. If you show too much interest to that man, your tips go down, and vice versa. So studying people has always been fascinating to me and just seeing how different people work. So personality assessments were a big part of that. And when six years ago, myself and a another couple personality type junkies got together and started comparing systems. I like this one. I like that one. What ended up starting to happen And I was, we started to see where overlap happened, where the flaws in each system happened. And the idea that this was potentially creating something new started to rise to the surface. And so I, we stuck with it, I stuck with it. And the next rate researcher, the next rate person, the next rate conference would come along. And over the last six years, I've developed the Endotype Formula, which I think is a personality assessment that's far, far beyond anything else out there.

Leighann Lovely 05:36

So wow, first of all, that that's awesome on that one, that you stuck with it, because there are so many personality assessments out there, but they're all slightly different in the way that they look at, you know, the person the way that they, you know, identify different traits. And in the idea behind it is to try to understand that, you know, the individual in the way they learn or the way they they understand information, the way that you're supposed to teach them, if they're going to be a fit for the culture, that type of thing. But something that you that you said really stood out to me, because I remember, as a kid, when we would go out to dinner, when you said, you know, as a waitress, you have to immediately try to identify, you know, the individual, the head of the table, or whoever that might be the payer at the table. And that that is psychology, 100% Psychology. 101 is really identifying your target target audience, and then not paying too much attention to one person because you don't want to alienate so. So here's, here's an interesting story, because my dad was always the person who, you know, would lay down the credit card, that doesn't mean that he's the one who has all of the money. It doesn't. I mean, my parents were both brought in money, they both worked. He just happened to be the one who had laid on the credit card. And I remember once the waitress, putting her hands on my dad's shoulder and making a couple of comments, and she walked away and my, my, my dad's wife said, Wow, she's really laying it on thick. She thinks that he works, and I don't. And I went, Well, why does it matter? And she goes, she is now insulting me. And thinks that she's going to get a really big tip, because she's cozying up to who she thinks is the moneymaker. And I'm like, and and I think I was maybe 14 or 15. So I was old enough to understand that. But you're right. psychology behind that is yeah, you you want to cozy up to the moneymaker to get the bigger tip. But that, in turn, actually, you know, hurt her because at that point, my dad was seeing that, you know, his wife was doing Wait a second. No, that that's not that's inappropriate. Now you've overstepped your bounds. So yeah, the psychology behind individual the psychology behind people is, so interesting. And you clearly you have that interest from a very young age. Yeah. So this is this has not been just a recent journey. This has been a lifelong study of individuals. And you mentioned that you were what you work you were owner of what impact? No, yeah. Impact fitness.

Laura Hulleman 08:26

Yep, that was my gym.

Leighann Lovely 08:27

And then you did some what? Coaching you were a retreat facilitator. Yep. And, and you mentioned that you've kind of made that jump from a independence, but now to really truly a business owner,

Laura Hulleman 08:42

Right. Yeah. And, and, you know, and all the way along, if you would have asked me, I would have told you guys, I own my own business, like, right, just off the shoulders, right. I own my own business. But I was self employed. I was still doing the trading time for money. And it was all me, I break a leg, I'm done. You know, like, I hurt myself, I get sick, I'm dead. And at this point being so so then I started to see oh, that's not how I can actually grow this company. And this idea, right? I feel like I'm the steward of this really great tool. And this really, this tool has so many, many, many applications, that what I now need to do is I need to take a step back and away even from some of the things that I love. I love being the coach right and doing life coaching and facilitating and whatever. I love all that. And it's not my job right now. My job right now is to take this step back and become more of the educator, more of the information distributor working with people who do coaching in these different areas. So life coaching, HR Mark Marketing, whatever it is helping them to understand how the endo type formula can apply inside of their specialty, help them do their job better. Because that gets this idea out there in a way that alone, I could never have done. Right, I'm I can only talk to so many people a day, right? But now if I make a little army of fans, a little army of people equipped using the endo type formula who are out there, whether they're talking about it directly, or they're just using it indirectly, in what they do, it is able to do the job that it's here to do, which is help people be more of who they are, but understand that they don't need to be more than who they are. And, and just get that out there. That message and that understanding, get that out there. I have to take a different role inside of my company to be able to do so.

Leighann Lovely 10:55

Right, Yeah, so you've made that jump from independence to actual business owner? And having employees?

Laura Hulleman 11:05

Yeah, I've brought on a project manager, I am working with kind of system builder. You know, like that's she build systems. That's what she does. To take care of my systems. For me, I have somebody that I can refer I can. She's my administrative assistant, right? I call a color my Kenya girl. Can you do this? And can you do this for me? So my Kenya girl. And then I actually hired my teenager, my 17 year old, who who sits right here by me during the day, he does virtual schooling, and so and he has an eye for design. So the majority of my social media, graphics and things, I'm like, Hey, can you put this up? Yep, sure can. So I have multiple people that I'm now working to be able to go, Okay, how do I not do it all? And that was something I had to train my brain to do. We, my project manager and I set up a Friday afternoon question that she has to Marco Polo and asked me, What did you want to get done this week? Or hope to get done this week? That didn't? Because on Monday, I entered the workweek dreamy eyed and excited, right? Oh, it's a brand new week, right? can get so much stuff done. But on Friday, I'm in this like, that's right. I was supposed to send out that contract. Oh, that's right. I was supposed to follow up on this email. And, and I've done it myself for so long. Mm hmm. That I don't, I'm not in the pattern or the habit of delegating. And so that's the pattern and the habit that I need someone to help me create. And that Friday question allows me to go, oh, maybe that's not if that's gotten put off more than one week? Maybe that's not my job who could do this job? And what do they need to be able to be equipped to do this job? So looking for those patterns of delegation? Right?

Leighann Lovely 13:07

Yeah. And that's, and that's awesome that you are able to able to do that and discover that in yourself, because most people are not. Most people will continue that cycle over and over and over. And that's insanity. Right, literally the definition of insanity. So, here's what I'm sure everybody is wondering. So what is the endo type formula? explain this a little bit more in detail to to me so and into our audience so that we understand how it is different than your typical, you know, disc assessments to your typical, you know, how is that different?

Laura Hulleman 13:50

Yeah. So, you know, in, in HR and in with most personality assessments, right, there's Strength Finders, there's Myers Briggs, there's disc, those are kind of the tops. There's a few other ones out there that are pretty cool, too. But they're usually testing for one thing. Myers Briggs is trying to assess how do you think which is very helpful. Disc tends to look for those patterns in how you behave. Are you more direct, are you more influential? And then I can I can change my approach to be able to meet you where you're at? Strengths Finder finders, what do you know how to do? Well? They're looking for a thing Enneagram it looks for kind of like, what are your cravings? What are your emotional makeups what the Intertape formula does is it recognizes the fact that we are not one. We are all of those things. We are not just thinkI beings we are not just feely beings. We are Are all of them. And so our quiz tests how you think. But those thought patterns based on Jung in cognitive theory, right break based on those thought functions connect to for each individual specific energetic cravings, kind of like what Enneagram talks about, but it connects in a predictable way. So I can test how you think. And then I know what you crave. And I and what your strengths are what you do so easily. It's like breathing, you put that out into the world, knowing that I now have an inside look at how you work, to be able to match my marketing to you to be able to match my offers to you to be able to satiate those inner cravings that you have that here's the thing as humans, we kind of suck at self assessment or at self awareness, I'm sorry. And so I don't even know what my own cravings are. Right? So, for instance, my dad, his endo type has a big craving for worth. He wants to feel worthy. In our culture, and especially in our culture, I think for men, even more worthiness has been connected to money. So my dad thinks that he needs to get paid what he's worth, right. And so he chases the money. He chased the money in his career. What he really wanted was to be valued, and to be valued in a very specific way he wanted to be heard, which is also part of his I know type, he has a craving to be able to make sure that you're hearing what he's saying. If his company knew that, if any of the last five companies he was with because he had about a two year cycle, before he was headhunted into another company, as a, he was a computer network security person. So he was highly, highly headhunted. And he was always offered more money, and a bigger, you know, bigger benefits package. And away he went, there he went, what he wanted was to feel worthy, if they had made him feel valued in the way that he needed to be, he would have stayed, he never would have gone searching after the money. Because that craving would have been satiated from the inside. So in in any kind of a relationship, whether that's in our personal relationships, or that in our work relationships, there are these there are these things. So worthiness, significance, being being who we are, right identity is a big craving for me. Having connection, feeling like you belong, all of these things are part of everyone's endo type formula, either as a craving, or as something we put out into the world really, really easily and do very well on our possibility side of our endo type. So, right, that's a that's a very broad picture. But that's why I say it, it, it's, yeah, we're able to predict how you think once you answer those five questions, I can tell you the same stuff that Myers Briggs tells you. But we have so much more, I can understand who you are as far as the DISC profile. But we can get target, not just this big, you know, 100 100 foot viewpoint that disc gets, we can get right down into the details of it all.

Leighann Lovely 18:56

And that's really interesting, especially in a world like, that we're living in today, because people, it's not just about bringing somebody in and understanding how we're going to train them or what their personality type is. It's today it really is about the drivers of, of what drives somebody, whether that be family, whether that be feeling valued, whether that be I mean, and that is the world we're living in today. That's the shift that over the last two years we have seen the world take people more than ever are using their I don't want to say feelings but it is it comes down to there. I no longer want to feel like a number.

Laura Hulleman 19:50

Correct? Yeah. Especially in this post COVID world where, right? When we were just nine to five in or you know just Do you go to work, you go to work, you go to work, you go to work, we didn't have a lot of time to sit down and reflect and go, What do I really want out of this life? Right, but COVID made everybody sit on their butt and go, Oh, this is what it's like not to go into work today. Hmm. Interesting. Is this really what I want?

Leighann Lovely 20:24

And it's not even it became, oh, wait, I can work from my couch and be just as productive. And I'm not saying that everybody is just as productive. This is the, you know, the new argument that everybody's having, can employees be as productive from home? Do you know not everybody is on that train. We talked with employees every day, I want to go into the office. Great. That's, that is that person's preference. But there are hundreds of 1000s of people who say, I can be just as productive. Sitting at home, on my couch at my kitchen table. I mean, there are hundreds of 1000s of people who have now created a room in their house that is just dedicated to having an office. Yep. For very inexpensive i i created the Office at my my home for pennies. I mean, I converted cabinet into a desk. I mean, yeah. So the the feelings behind that if you could literally pull up somebody's profile, before you go into their three months, six months review and say, Okay, this is this is this person's, the driver for this person is to feel valued. Before you have that conversation, and cater your review towards that and then ask them so what what are your thoughts? We want to know? You know, do you think that we could do XYZ better here? And to actually have them be heard? To have them feel valued at the company, the retention would skyrocket at some of these companies? Yep. And yeah, that's, that's awesome. And you can't You're right, you cannot do that with with disc, assess. I mean, I've taken as a salesperson, every time I you know, every time I shouldn't say I've taken hundreds, you know, but every time I've applied or when I was applying to, as soon as you know, you go through the initial interview, um, we're gonna send you this a DISC assessment, or we're gonna send you this Yep. This assessment. It's like I've taken I don't know, how many of those.

Laura Hulleman 22:38

Yeah. know, the thing is, there's, it's usually just too many questions. First of all, like, you have to clear your schedule, and make yourself a cup of coffee and sit down for your, you know, 100 questions, because they put in a lot of redundancies, because the way they ask the questions isn't dialed in enough to go this or this. And the other thing that they do is they, a lot of the assessments out there tend to put you on a gradient scale, right, somewhat, or, you know, very much. That triggers a thing in our brain that triggers our brain function of comparing. Now, all of a sudden, I'm answering all these questions in this fear based flopsweat? I don't know, maybe little Oh, I'm comparing myself to others. What's the right answer here? There, it is a real challenge. And because of that, you tend to not get accurate data. I had taken the Myers Briggs questionnaire, um, I had probably taken it five different times, had come up with two different results. Never saw the value of Myers Briggs, I kind of hated it. And that was way back when the endo type thing first started. I was a disc gal. And the other researcher was a Myers Briggs person. And I was like, no, no, no, that that stinks. I hate that one. And she's like, No, it's best. And I was like, 30, whatever questions boring. And she's like, No, no, no, we can get you there and much fewer questions because she had worked in how to dial in some of those questions. Well, with her questions, I finally was typed, right. I had never been typed correctly, because of how they would ask the introvert extrovert question. Their introvert extrovert question was always kind of like if you're at a party. Are you out on the dance floor or you sitting having a quiet conversation in the corner? Well, girl I love dance. In I am on the dance floor. What it didn't ask me was after that party's over how many days of alone time does it take before you want to see another person again? Right? What's What's your recovery time after that? And I had always been typed extrovert instead of introvert. Because the questions just aren't dialed in. Right? That's, that's the other place that we really have to watch what assessments that we are giving people. Because great you took it, but wasn't even accurate.

Leighann Lovely 25:32

Right, well, and I am a horrible dancer. So I am, I am an extrovert, through and through, if you're at a networking event, I will be all over that place. But at a dance party, I am probably not going to be on the dance floor.

Laura Hulleman 25:49

Right, it's just not dialed in enough. It's not dialed in. When we ask a similar, we're not actually testing for introvert extrovert. We are one of the questions inside our quiz. And I'm not going to get exactly the nuance, right. But what we ask people is, are you more dominant? And can be submissive when you need to be? Or are you more submissive, go with the flow, whatever, and can become dominant when you need to be right. That's that extrovert introvert thing? Yeah. I prefer to take charge. I can I can sit back and chill, or I prefer somebody else to make the decisions. But if nobody's going to make a decision, we're not going to say her all day. Yeah, I'll step up. And so asking that question, just slightly different, to be able to get at the information we're actually trying to ask, or we're actually trying to get out because even these days, introvert and extrovert, right? It's it's the new hot trend to be ambivert. an ambivert, which means like both, I'm both Well, we are all both. Nobody wants to go live in a cave.

Leighann Lovely 27:02

Wait, is that an option? Oh, I know, there's new words for everything. Every once in a while somebody will say something to me. And I'm like, am I the only one in the room that doesn't know what that means? That everybody will look at me and go, No, I just I don't want to sound like an idiot. I don't know what that means either. And I'm like, okay, so this is one of those new words that came up. That was created just recently, and I'm like, Okay, I'm showing my age here. Mm hmm. Yeah, I am. 100%. extrovert have been from the time that I was a kid. And you're right. If you asked me, Are you, you know, dominant and submissive, when you need to be absolute. That would that's 100%. Me. I will volunteer, I will stand up and take charge. When I but if I need to be submissive, if I need to be quiet. I need absolutely I follow I mean, that's another thing about you know, following the room. But if you simply just ask me, Are you dominant? Or are you submissive? I'd be like, Well, yeah, I mean, I'm dominant. But, you know, there's some times that I'm submissive. Right? I mean, when you when you ask it that black and white, you're kind of like, huh, yeah, huh. I guess I fall in the middle. I mean,

Laura Hulleman 28:15

Yeah. And and, you know, there's, there's some people who take our quiz who don't like that, they only get like, one shot at a question kind of thing. You know, like, Are you this? Or are you this, but when they, so it's only five questions takes less than five minutes, and they get to the end, and they see a preview of their results. Does this sound like you? If it doesn't sound like you? There was probably one of those questions that you struggled with one of those questions that it was like, I could maybe go either way. Go back, answer that question differently this time. And then they'll get the the other result. And they're like, oh, yeah, that was it. That was me. And, and that still takes less time than the 30 to 100 questions of every other quiz out there. You know, and so yeah, so there are some people who, who kind of pride themselves on wanting to be both, but we have and we can be we can be both in any of the questions that I ask. Dominant submissive, are you more worrying about people's feelings or more worrying about what's right? Interesting. I get that we, we all do both, right. But it's kind of like, each of us has a dominant leg that we use to climb the stairs. We don't we don't even recognize it. But there's one foot that we always step first with when it's time to climb stairs, right? Which foot is it for you hear people's feelings first? Ooh, how are they gonna react to this? Or I gotta say this because it's right. Oh, I should probably figure out people's feelings to you know kind of thing.

Leighann Lovely 29:59

For me, I know immediately what I would answer to, to the question, I mean, immediate. I gotta take the quiz. I gotta take this. Yay. Good job. So, yeah, I'm going to, I think what you offered, you offered that to me, didn't you do

Laura Hulleman 30:15

It right now at the quiz at this point, and it won't stay this way forever. But at this point, the phrase, or the phrase, the quiz is available on our website at no cost. So if you go to endo type.com, and you take the quiz, you'll be able to in less than five minutes, see your results. And unstart understanding a little bit more about yourself. And people are always very surprised, because because we're only asking those five questions, and then they're like, how do you know these things about me? Because because they're the pattern that make up who you are. Right?

Leighann Lovely 30:55

Creepy? No

Laura Hulleman 30:58

Yeah, exactly.

Leighann Lovely 30:59

So um, here's the next question that you now you recently released a book, you put out a book, my walk my way, I'd love to hear you tell me a little bit about this?

Laura Hulleman 31:10

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so my friend and I, it actually started we were having we were both kind of in for different reasons, but having a bad day. And, and we were talking about this project that she was involved in, that was kind of like this theme of it was like, walk a mile in my shoes. And I was like, God, I hate that. I was like, I know people say it, because they want to they what they're trying to say is, let's be more empathetic, and think about other people. But what it actually is, is more like, I'm so different than, like walk a mile in my shoes, it creates comparison, it creates this disconnect from people. I was like, and I don't want to read stories like that. I want to read a story. Like, I walked in my own dang shoes. Here's my story. Here's how I did it my own way. And. And I was like, huh, I would really like to read a book like that. Like, maybe we should write a book like that. What could that look like? And so we brought together 11 women authors, in they weren't authors prior to some of them had written prior to this. But a lot of them were just amazing. Women with this very powerful story to tell about that time in their life, when they decided that outside of comparison, and and how is everybody else doing it outside of the experts? How are they is everybody telling me I should do this. They decided to do their life their own way. And so inside of that book, we have some business stories, we have some stories of people who have decided to do business on their own terms, and create, you know, a completely different experience for themselves. We have stories of people leaving domestic violence, we have stories of people parenting, or taking care of their aging parents, leaving generational trauma and generational body shaming. And saying, You know what, this stops here, I'm not going to pass this on to my kids. They're really brilliant stories. And out of those 11 authors, we have 10 Different endo types. Oh, wow. So as part of the book, you can take the quiz, right? You can read the book, because it is beautiful, inspiring, powerful stories. You can take the quiz, and then go Who do I think most like here? Let me go read her story. Oh, yeah, I relate to this, maybe a little bit too much. And, and to be able to see that or get together as a book club, we've created a book club guide, have your friends be able to take the quiz to and go, Oh, you're like that one. Okay, I see you. And so it was this really neat opportunity for people to you know, however, they approach the book, either as an inspiring story as something where they're trying to learn more about themselves or trying to learn more about the people in their lives through this book.

Leighann Lovely 34:21

That's awesome. And it's so interesting that I did not know I don't think that I realized that it was all of them had the different endo endo type formulas that that is that's crazy. Cool. I, I have the book. In fact, I actually had it sitting right next to me. I've opened it and started reading it a couple of times. And I'll tell you, you know with four year old it's difficult to assignment. But it's yeah, I'm I'm so excited to read it. And I yeah, I'm so excited to read it. It's just it's amazing that you put that out Yeah, amazing that you got that, in put this together, I'm, yeah, I'm looking forward to actually having five minutes to myself where I can sit down and dive in.

Laura Hulleman 35:08

And if you're more of an, if you're more of an audio content kind of gal, we actually have the my walk my way podcast where I'm interviewing each of those authors and talking about their endo types. In the book, we don't really teach endo type in this book. On the podcast, we're getting a lot more into the nitty gritty of their endo types. And I'm actually working on a project right now, with the book, I'm gathering up awesome. Leaders, you know, both of different genders of different races, different walks of life, to be able to create a book where we teach endo type through stories, right? That's kind of like, this is why I am the way I am kind of thing.

Leighann Lovely 36:01

Well, and it's yeah, it's I love to hear, you know, women, men's inspiring stories of how they overcame something, obviously, with my background of having by, you know, bipolar disorder, having a mother who, you know, also struggled, you know, for, well, her whole life with it. And, and obviously, my my mom, and I have very, very different personality types. I am definitely, very much my dad, businessman, you know, a type personality, my mom, very much not, I would not even begin to know what her personality type is, but very much more of a very much more of quiet and not very, she would be much more on the submissive side. I think I think years ago, I was I was offered the opportunity to have my whole family do the DISC assessment, which was interesting. And and yeah, I don't anyways, I'm on a tangent. But yeah, I know, I love inspiring stories of how people have overcome, whether that be personal or business or so yeah, no, that this is great. This is awesome. So

Laura Hulleman 37:14

Thank you. Yeah, it was a fun project.

Leighann Lovely 37:16

Yeah. Did you talk about the possibility of doing something like this? Like another book? Yeah, maybe? Yeah,

Laura Hulleman 37:24

That's fine. Yep, that's the plan is, is the next, the next book will answer more of the question of like, here's why I'm like that, that that's the, you know, where this one was, like, here's that moment when I decided kind of story, right? This is more looking at people's life story and going, this is why I'm like this. And then they're going to tell their life stories. And we're going to nurture out the endo type elements so that I can teach the endo type through their story. And go, do you see how, you know, do you see how, you know, we'll use my dad as an example. Do you see how Andy, because he craved worth so much, was willing to jump to that next job here, and the next one, and the next one after that, because of his innate craving to be valued. And so taking the experiences, and then showing it right, it's kind of like, I'll pre highlight the book for you. So that you can see where all those juicy bits are. And the plan is with this next book, that we will actually be creating some training programs, with the use of this book in different areas. So for coaching, for HR for, you know, other things, we can take one book, and then create different courses around that book.

Leighann Lovely 38:52

Awesome. Awesome.

Laura Hulleman 38:53

Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 38:54

So um, we are coming to time, but I have the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why?

Laura Hulleman 39:11

Probably the bigger one would be so one of my innate cravings, right? On my endo type formula is a craving for significance. And it's the one that comes up over and over and over. It's, you know, how we keep saying like, we're trying to learn the same lessons over and over. Yeah, that's me and significant. And, and so I have this big tool. I had this endo type formula about two years ago. And it had started working with a coach I'd worked with in the past. She wasn't really a business coach, but I got the sense that she was able to help me do the thing that I needed, which was a little bit of business coaching. And she agreed, we sat down, we tried to figure some stuff out. She's like, What do you want? And I was like, okay, Here's what I want for this company did edited it editor. She's like, that's very interesting. That is not actually what I asked, What do you want? Oh, dang it. This is what I did in my last business is that I put everybody else and the business first and kept forgetting what I wanted, kept forgetting my role, my importance, my significance. Having that on my radar now allows me to make such different choices like bringing on a project manager or going, that's intro, you know, cuz everybody has an idea of what this intertype formula should do. That's interesting. That's not actually my job, because I know that it wouldn't bring me peace and joy and and it wouldn't put me in the position that I need to be in. So I think that having that conversation two years ago, and then continuing, we did probably, I think it was a six month coaching program. And that was just an and she's still somebody that I see very regularly, so she can keep going. And excuse me, and do you think that's a significant thing again? Yep. Okay, yep, there it is. All right. Back to the drawing board, let me make a different choice. But having that so clearly on my radar now, has just allowed my business to just really go crazy in the last two years of opening up and, and expanding in, in an organic way, right in in a way that I'm not stressing myself out, because I continue to remember that I'm significant. And that going out and fishing in the summertime is high on my list of things to do.

Leighann Lovely 41:52

That, wow, that we as individuals don't realize sometimes that we are our own worst enemies. And, and I say that, you know, for all people out there who are interested in running their own business or doing their own thing, because we so we, our default setting is to say, well, I can't do it, because XYZ or but having a true understanding of your own self and what that that thing is your your for you it's the significance, had no true understanding of what power that would hold.

Laura Hulleman 42:37

Right? Because see, all my my business mistakes that I made in the past where I said, I was overworking and putting myself last and doing for my family and doing because that whole time I was trying to earn or prove my significance, right? Because if I do more for them, and I work my tail off, and I come home and be the good mom, like, Look, Mom, I'm important. Now look, Mom, I guess I am significant. The whole time, what I write my internals were trying to guide me to is you need to make the decision, knowing your significant, right, not trying to earn it anymore.

Leighann Lovely 43:18

And it's in it's just for me, it just recently came clear what my you know, the imposter syndrome, you know, is such a real thing. And it didn't really dawn on me until I was actually at a at a summit the young guns Summit, not just the resource. Sure, but the the one before that. And they were talking about it and it hit me like a ton of bricks and I went holy crap. Like I really have issues with that. Yeah, like me for me.

Laura Hulleman 43:47

Yep. Right, where, right? There is one part of us that predicts our imposter syndrome. And for me, that's where significance connects. For somebody else. It's going to be work where belonging or whatever, there is a way to predict exactly what your imposter syndrome sounds like, we're going to do a whole event on it in October, but planning a whole event on it.

Leighann Lovely 44:11

It's, and right if you can identify exactly where that comes from. And I have an idea. I mean, I really do. It's, you know, I have a four year old and I feel guilty when I'm at work. I feel guilty when I'm with her. You know, I feel guilty when I have to go to a networking meeting, I feel you know, I go there and I want to have fun and enjoy myself but I feel guilty that I'm not at home with her and but if I'm not working I feel right. Right. Where does it where does it end? There's you know, you you have to you and I know that there are people listening who go yep, I do the exact same thing all the time. And it's the mindset this the switch that you have to figure out how do I turn it off? Because I know that I'm great at my job. I know that I'm a good mom. How do I how do I stop the default setting from going back to, you know, you're not spending enough time with your daughter, you're not spending enough time at work you're not doing? How do you how do you stop that default setting? And just, yeah, right,

Laura Hulleman 45:17

What once we understand what the craving is that we have, and we can name that, so for me, I named it, I understand it, its significance right now and understand what that inner guidance is trying to propel you towards, it gets a whole lot easier. So take the quiz, we'll reconnect. And I'll be like, Okay, you're gonna, this is my name, you're gonna fix this brand name. And this is what you want. And at least then you'll have it on your radar, right? Sure.

Leighann Lovely 45:47

Perfect. Hey, I just accomplished one of my goals is to fix my impact. No. Okay. So this has been such an awesome conversation with you today. It truly has you. I mean, this is you just your one, the endo type formula is as awesome. I'm excited to take that to the book. I mean, if you want to check it out, here's where you're going to take the reins, Laura, how can somebody get in contact with you? How can somebody find your book, all of that?

Laura Hulleman 46:19

Sure. So if they're trying to find the book, you can buy it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble at your local bookstores. But if you want to just easy to remember, right, my walk my way.com. From there, you can buy the book you can download, get free guides, can download book club information, you can see our authors get on our podcast, all those things. If you're looking to end, you can take the quiz there too. If you're looking more to just access the quiz, endo type.com. And you can find me on most social media platforms. So if you just want to connect with the Endotype on Instagram or Facebook, LinkedIn, we're on all those platforms.

Leighann Lovely 47:04

Excellent. Again, Laura, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me. It's been an awesome conversation.

Laura Hulleman 47:11

Thank you for having me here. I appreciate it.

Leighann Lovely 47:13

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/laura-hulleman-8455bb61

Website - endotype.com

Email - imfitlaura@gmail.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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This guest is one with drive, intelligence, and amazing accomplishments. He is also so much fun to talk with and has taught me a lot about myself in a very short time. I hope you tune in and enjoy the conversation as much as I did.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Leighann Lovely 01:04

Today I have the honor and privilege of speaking with Jonathan Heider, he is a professional motivational speaker, and inclusion workshop leader with Split Star Productions. With a lifetime of experience as a congenital quad amputee, seasoned paralympic swimmer. And accessibility designer Jonathan brings a worldly perspective unmatched, fueled by his desire to trailblaze for future generations and those whose voices aren't heard, he has set out to be the change, Jonathan thrives to find unique and out of the box solutions to overcome any form of obstacle that stands in his way. Alongside his mission statement of using what you've got, and components of you, Jonathan's unique outlook and determination serves as a model, we are more than any one of our characteristics. And like I said, I have the honor and privilege of talking with him today. Not only have I had the opportunity to speak with him prior to this conversation today. But I've I've had the opportunity to learn from him. And I'm excited to get this conversation started. Jonathan, I am so excited to have you here today. I mean, you and I have had the opportunity to talk you know, prior to this, and I just I think that you have an amazing background, some just amazing life experience. So thank you for taking the time to come on and talk with me today.

Jonathan Heider 02:39

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for giving me the opportunity. I love your background as well and what you're doing to help humanize HR and bring people closer together. That's fantastic.

Leighann Lovely 02:48

Well, thank you. So I'm, excited to hear a little bit more about your story, you know, especially as a professional athletes, architect, and then to motivational speaker and everything in between. So why don't we start? Well start wherever you want with all of that.

Jonathan Heider 03:09

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I guess I am kind of a jack of all trades. I've been chopping around a little bit. So my story is I was actually born in Croatia in the city of Split. I was born a quad amputee so all four limbs were shorter due to birth. No one knows exactly why. And so I was given up at birth, and at 16 months old, I was adopted by a family out of Green Bay, Wisconsin and came to the United States. Growing up I was super high energy kid like super ADHD bouncing off the walls quite literally. And jumping off of furniture, you know, you name it. And so needing an outlet. I got involved into sports. That was a big thing, especially in our household in general. As a family, my older siblings all played sports, and so did my parents. So it just kind of came natural. So I did everything. I was involved in wheelchair basketball, wheelchair rugby, wheelchair tennis, sitting volleyball, sled hockey, as well as swimming and swimming was the one that really stuck with me. And so that one is the one that you know, through my childhood took me not only to the national stage, but international stage as well as paralympic swimmer and so had the opportunity to live in train at the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center in Colorado Springs Colorado for a few years. And then kind of went from there with my career and that's what launched the public speaking and then, following my life as a paralympic swimmer. I got into college and got into public speaking even more with an agency eventually went independent launching my own business and worked as in architecture for about three and a half years. So a little bit of everything along the way.

Leighann Lovely 04:44

Yeah, so you and when we spoke, you know, prior to this you left home to to actually train at a pretty young age. Tell me a little bit about the that.

Jonathan Heider 05:01

So yeah, since my kind of career in the Paralympic swimming world was very, I started off, you know, going to national competitions when I was 11 years old. And so it was something that took off rather quickly for me. And eventually, I had applied, or I had talked to initially the coach at the Olympic and Paralympic training center for the Paralympic swim team, by the name of Jimmy flowers. And he had met me at a competition in Texas and said, hey, you know, I see your potential, I absolutely love what you do, I want to coach you. And I said, Awesome. And so it was early in 2008, that I had initially applied for the position of a resident athlete at the training center, didn't get in that time. And then I tried again, for January of 2010. Didn't get accepted that time either. And then it was finally in September of 2010, is when I got accepted. And so at that point, you know, I was only, you know, 17 years old, or 16 years old at the time when I got accepted. And then going into age 17, when I got there. And so I was very young. I mean, my career was very early in my life. And so, I always had supportive parents, I mean, they have always supported all of us kids and our different adventures through whether we were sports, or whether we were theater, we all kind of had our own little avenues. And so my parents were super supportive, and loved, you know, they were all about, you know, staying active, that was the biggest thing that they always pushed growing up, was we want healthy, active kids, and we want them to be able to really do that. And they saw my success. And they saw my potential through being a paralympic swimmer that helped me grow as a person in so many ways, including, you know, understanding kind of mental discipline, mental health, physical health, and so many other aspects. And so, in a way, it was almost like a no brainer for them that they saw what I could do. And so at 16 years old, they agreed to let me go to the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center. And so, you know, there's a lot of precautions that went to place knowing that I was going to finish high school online through virtual Wisconsin education program, even though I was out in Colorado, making sure that there were certain people, not only the coaching staff, but other people kind of, I honestly, you know, kind of as a parental figure while I was out there, and so laid that groundwork first. And then once everything was kind of laid out, then it was kind of like, Yes, this is really the right thing for me to do, and that they felt comfortable having me do this. And so it was a huge, very quickly had to grow up, you know, it was, you know, how many people are set, you know, at 16 years old, are set are told, Hey, you have a swim competition up in Toronto, December 6, through December 12, you need to be there on the sex and you back in Colorado Springs, by the 12. You know, I was 16 years old, I had to figure out budgets, I had to figure out flights, I had to figure out, you know, transportation to and from the venues and all of that, you know, and that's something that like, I expect a 16 year old to know budgeting and how to handle flights and all of that. And so, and then also maturity of you know, being on the team USA, you had to represent yourself in a certain way, you couldn't be childish, you had to be respectful. And so it was a huge Grossberg in a very, very short time, and to kind of becoming this very professional adult at 16 years old.

Leighann Lovely 08:27

And having parents who, you know, saw that not only this was something that you clearly wanted, it sounds like it was a very uplifting for your, for your mental health for your it mean, it sounds like it was just and as a parent, it would be very difficult for me to say, Sure, honey, go across the, you know, halfway across the country and be that far away from me and study and I mean, grow up without me in your life, that would be very difficult. But the fact that they were willing to one put that trust in you to support you in the way that they did for you to have that growth and to be able to experience something that very, very, I mean, an extremely small percentage of people have the ability to do and, and again, you are also able to experience life with other individuals who I'm sure we're experiencing life a little bit differently as well being a quadriplegic or having other what, what would be the proper word for that?

Jonathan Heider 09:45

Well, you know, similar disabilities, I think, you know, our swim came out at the Olympic and Paralympic training center where I was not the only one who was underage. There were two other athletes who were underage who also went out there. And so there's that Team of the swim team itself was there about? Well, there's a team of 12. And so it was six boys, six girls. And so it was a good team. But it was Yeah, being able to be amongst peers, very driven very hard working disabled athletes who, you know, took it upon themselves to be the best that they could be and see that their potential and really said everything else in their life aside to live this life to really become this true world class athlete, and so very inspired by everybody that I was living and trained with. Because they also, like you had just mentioned, had come from that similar background of self determination and openness and been brought up, you know, you were talking a lot about my parents. You know, they also had parents that said, you know, dream big, and chase those dreams, one of the athletes who's over the age of 18, at the time, but one of the most incredible Paralympic swimmers of all times Jessica law, she went to her first Paralympic Games at age 11. And so for her to be able to tackle the world the way she did, and to have her, you know, she was my inspiration in the way that, you know, her parents allowed, she was also adopted at a very young age, and her parents, you know, gave her that foundation that she could trace her dream at such a young age and be successful. And so not only did I look up to her, but I got to train in the pool with her and be part of that community, because she opened the doors, so that I could do it at 16. Myself,

Leighann Lovely 11:30

right. And to be so young and representing your country representing I mean, to be amongst the best in the world. I mean, that's just, it's an amazing, it had to have been an amazing experience and the pride that you must have felt that you still that you still feel, from being able to do that. I mean, anybody who's able to do that, must feel is I can't even I can't even begin to understand. I mean, I get excited when I win. You know, a board game. I can't imagine. I won.

Jonathan Heider 12:15

I do, too. I'm not gonna lie, I'm right there with you. I wouldn't Candyland, I celebrate just as hard I get it, I get it.

Leighann Lovely 12:23

I am a wildly competitive person. But, you know, I can't I can't begin to, you know, compare that to, to the, one of the best in the world. And that's, that's, you know, we all watch. And we go how, how are these? How are these individuals able to do the things that they do? And and you're right, it discipline, determination, you know, following your dream and having the parents having the, the coaches be the ones who are saying, Yep, you can absolutely do this. So, absolutely. This brings me to what you decided to retire from swimming at 19. So, tell me about that.

Jonathan Heider 13:05

I think it was one of those things. So I started off very young. And so and it was kind of my entire life through especially through middle school into high school that it was, it was to have a swim practices. It was before school, after school, and then spending the weekends at competitions. And it was, that was my childhood, in a way like I had friends. But my my life was like priority number one is swim. And then if there's time after that, I could be with my friends. And so it kind of became very, I almost burnt out in that sense, because I never had like, a whole lot of like, just fun social interaction, like going to parties going to hang out with people because it was always like, Swimming was number one. And so at that point, after just missing the team for the 2012 games, became the point where it's like, alright, let's, you know, take a timeout, let's take time to understand like, what what do I need to do and like, I have the opportunity to continue, but at that point, I'm like, you know, I would like to step back for a little bit kind of go into a semi retirement and start college because I think now I want to like I want to be a college student. You know, I want to do the college thing and I want to do what other people are doing my age and hearing about, you know, friends go into college and having parties and going and hanging out being successful students like I wanted that same life. And so to kind of step back from that Paralympic world and just kind of become your average, you know, student in college was something that I then set my goals for.

Leighann Lovely 14:39

So not only were you are you gifted with athletic ability, you then went and didn't choose to just get a, oh get my bachelor's degree and you know, business you went and got your degree in architectural.

Jonathan Heider 14:57

Yeah, that I agree. No. And that's and that's in and of itself is an entirely different world. And so like, it is an insanely different program than any other program in college. You know, most people, you know, when you're in college, you take a bunch of, you know, exams and tests and write a lot of papers. In architecture college, it is you are creating projects, it is to three projects per class per semester, in which, you know, like, I remember, like, it's a lot of money to like, I remember my final model for my senior year, when I got all the receipts together, it costed me about $2,200 To make the whole entire project. And so you know, so it's like, yeah, I don't have to study for a test, but like, you know, pay for $100 textbook or pay for a $2,200 model, you know, and so it was late nights, very late nights and early mornings, putting together laser cut models and documents and drawings for every single project. And so it was, it was definitely a unique program. It definitely, you know, and unique situation, I remember when I started college in the architecture program, they accepted 400 people into the program. And when I graduated in, in my senior year, we had a graduating class of 87. And so it's, I would say, not for the faint of heart. But you know, I, there was a lot of a lot of dropouts. And a lot of you know, I so many times and you felt for them the heartbreak that they went through, you know, especially, there were times where I've seen people put together models that were, you know, four or $500, and then accidentally fall off the edge of their table, and completely go into just like a just a pile of pieces everywhere. And just like the heartache of the breakdown and the emotions of like, why am I even still here, admittedly, there was a time where I broke one of my models. Luckily, it wasn't like a full on shatter across the floor. But it is it is definitely not for the faint of heart. And I think going through my life as the Paralympic swimmer and challenging those obstacles head on. And it has prepared me to be able to be successful in the architecture program, I was the only person with a physical disability going through this program. And so to be able to kind of trailblaze the path that way and show like, hey, you know, I can do this, too. It was an absolutely amazing and incredible opportunity to make it through the program. And so, fortunately, not only was I in that top 97 to graduate, but out of the 97, who graduated, there was only about 25 people who had job offers from architecture schools, or architecture firms in the Milwaukee area. And I was one of the 25, who had a job opportunity waiting upon graduation, that I had proven myself time and time again, that I was worth it. And so it's that taking that discipline and that challenge to show like, this is my value, and I can I can do it.

Leighann Lovely 18:04

That's amazing. Not only amazing, because you You graduated with your BS in architecture, a minor in minor in certification in real estate development. And, and you did that you you did that for a while. But why not stay in that in that fields.

Jonathan Heider 18:21

I think one of the things that I understood was my purpose in life. And so I've been reflecting upon that my whole entire life. And my whole life has been about trailblazing the path through other through advocacy, in accessibility in disabilities and several other components that help people have their voice heard. And so I still have a passion for architecture and design. And I still do a lot of design development things and help people out in that regard. But I needed to pick a different avenue to be successful with that. And so, you know, I want to continue to advocate for accessibility and make facilities and spaces within our world more readily available and open for people of different backgrounds and create a more inclusive environment but working within the architecture firms not exactly the location that I truly believe I belong to follow my purpose.

Leighann Lovely 19:17

Wow! Did you just read that could not be better stated. I mean, and there are so many people who I mean you you clearly you clearly wowed a company with your abilities. You're obviously there they were probably looking at your academic, what would it be academic accolades and accomplished yes, there we go academic accolades and accomplishments they offered you you know, the position and often you know, individuals, especially younger individuals will find themselves at an impasse and go, you know, I It's not that I don't like what I'm doing, but they have that either the angel or the devil on their shoulder. Saying one thing or another, you clearly had something on your shoulder saying, Hey, this is not, you're great at it, this is not the path for you. And I talked to a lot of individuals who decide to go another path for one reason or another, which is why I asked you to come on, and talk with me today. Because you and I are very much like minded in that it took me years to figure out that I could do something with my story, I could offer more with, with what I have lived through, you are still at such a young age where you have so much more to offer the world, which is what brings you to where you are today. And being able to be a keynote speaker, or teach other people so much more. And I would really love to hear about what drives you and how you how you do that for others, because your story is really one of inspiration. And and I don't want to downplay that, I often get the oh, this is you know, LeighAnn lovely, and she has bipolar and and that drives me crazy, because I am not that I am absolutely a million different things. And I want to be recognized as LeighAnn lovely. And she is XYZ and ABC and all of the other things. And and you and I had kind of talked about this a little bit in our pre conversation that, you know, you don't want to be recognized for just one thing. You you have, I mean a million things in your tool belt that you can offer. But have you come up against that?

Jonathan Heider 21:48

So absolutely. And so you, you touched on a lot of big things. And so one of my biggest things through my life, and through my business and why I started my business and why I continue to lead and my purpose is understanding the components of you, you talked about with you with you know, this is LeighAnn lovely with bipolar, you're so much more than that. And same with my disability. And you know, my disability is very obvious, if you see me, you see my limbs are missing. It's one of those things that's very obvious, like, oh, that's Jonathan, he's a quad amputee. But like there's so much more to a person. And so understanding the components that make up this person is truly what makes a person unique and humanizes them in that sense and understanding like there are so many layers and so many levels to understanding this person. And so one of the biggest things that I speak about is I take these components of you and I like to think of them as spices and a spice rack. And that who you are is this big pot of chili. And everything that makes up who you are is one of the spices on the stool, you know, spice rack, and so, you know, grab the spice that's, you know, my disability, put that in there, grab the spice, that's apparently silver and put that in there, grab the spice, you know about being an architectural designer. And so all of these different spices come together. And that makes up who you are. And so you're more than just that one spice. And so I think I definitely had dealt with that, especially having a disability that is so obvious that people saw that first and wondered like, how are we going to overcome this and so always trying to play one step forward. And so when I talked about the architecture firm that had an offer for me before graduating college, I'd actually gone and done an externship with them during my college years, and prove to them be one step ahead of the game, I did a couple externships. But this one in particular, was the one that hired me, but during this extra, all of these externships it was proving that like, hey, I can do this just fine. You know, this is all electronic. This is all done on the computer. Let me let me show you, I can get these drawings done just as easily, if not more efficiently than the next person. And so it's it's that always having to prove myself, but taking that one step ahead of them to say, Hey, let me show you. Like don't, you know, don't don't hold me back. You know, I'll be respectful of you and your boundaries. But like, just give me that chance. Let me let me just prove to you real quick that I can do this. And so that's definitely been something that I've had to overcome is with having such a obvious disability, that people you know, first question and then, you know, seeing that I take the reins, they sit back and watch for a second. They're like, Oh, okay, he's got this. And so understanding those components that make up who you are, and respecting, you know, all of these incredible things that make up a person and it not, like I said, humanizes them as you like to say, with your podcast here. And so it's important to understand, you know, I'm more than just my disability. I'm more than just an architectural designer. I'm more than just a keynote speaker. I'm more than just a workshop facilitator. I'm more than just, you know, a Croatian born American. There's so many different components that make up who I am. And I think humanizing that and respecting What's all on my spice rack, and what's all in this pot of chili is what makes I think all of us great. And once people start to understand and see these different components that are on the spice rack, it helps them, then have that humanized connection to the person and see, okay, you know, you may, you know, you may have a disability or something else or you know, you may have, you know, be bipolar, but like, let's, let's get to know the person first and understand this person on a human level, and see that they're pretty amazing, and they're pretty spectacular person to get to know.

Leighann Lovely 25:35

And it's, so awesome that you that you say that and and I love the analogy of you know, a pot of chili because so often we do as humans, we take, we take a glance at somebody and automatically make an assumption, very quickly, we make an assumption, whether it be because of the way they look, whether it be because of, you know, simply the the first interaction that we have with somebody, we quickly as humans have made assumptions. And that's something that we have to get away from doing, we have to be able to open our hearts and minds to a wide variety of different things. And I think that people are starting to understand that more and more as time has gone on, especially over the last, you know, two years have you know, we've all experienced this a lot more. I think that we've all opened up our minds a lot more, there has been so many different things that even myself that I have had to check my own brain and go wait a second, I'm making an assumption of somebody, and I've never even had a conversation with them. It's as simple as me assuming that I should go and open a door for somebody, because I think that they need help. Now. It's not me trying to be you. No, no, let me let me preface this by saying, you know, I'm not trying to be rude. But you know, you you see somebody and you go, Oh, well, they can open their own door. But that may be an insult to some people have no, I can do it myself. No, I'm not saying you know, don't open a door for an old lady if you know, but you know what I think?

Jonathan Heider 27:18

Yeah, I think with that statement, I think part of it is just also being respect, respectful of people, you know, in society, you know, opening a door for somebody has always been a sign of generosity and respect. And so that is one of the things that I've learned over my life is like, not to be openly offended by somebody doing something in such a kind gesture, because they're trying their best to accommodate you, and be respectful of you. And that's something that I always take in mind. And so, but although like I can perfectly open a door for myself, if someone goes ahead and does it, I'm not going to like chop their head off for doing so because I see the kind gesture, I see the kindness, and I see the respect and the generosity that they are offering. And I know that it's coming from a place of love and respect, and not as a place of, well, you can't do this, you know, there are certain situations where, you know, sometimes it is offensive, there are times when like, in my when I used to have a manual wheelchair, I have a power chair now, but when I've manual wheelchair and I pushed myself across the street, I did have handles on the back of the chair. And every now and then there would be somebody who like cuz I'm like crossing the street, somebody would just grab the handles and like start pushing me and it frightened me. I mean, like, you're basically I'm gonna say in control some somebody else is controlling you. And so in situations like that, you know, having a very kind respectful, like, Hey, I've got this, you know, that's a little disrespectful. It's like pretty much picking somebody up and carrying them across the street when they didn't ask to be it's like, give them a sense, but, you know, it's it's having that communication with them in a respectful manner to say, hey, you know, please respect my boundaries. I appreciate what you're trying to do. But that is overstepping. Thank you for your assistance, but this is something I'm able to do. And so having those open conversations is huge. Because it shows that like, again, humanization you want to have a human contact with that person to say, hey, you know, these are my limitations, and this is what I can and cannot do. And so I appreciate what your efforts are and your kindness, but this is something that I would feel more appropriate to handle myself. Right.

Leighann Lovely 29:29

I you know, I've never heard anybody describe it that way. Because I'm assuming the the person who did that was like, Oh, I'm gonna help this person. But yeah, you basically they're kidnapping you I mean, I guess I've never heard to do it would be equivalent to you know, I Oh, Hi, Emily. And I have bipolar disorder and somebody basically opening my mouth and shoving pills down and go here. Let me get you your medication. What?

Jonathan Heider 29:52

Exactly, exactly. Pretty much like okay, well, um, didn't ask for that. But thank you.

Leighann Lovely 29:59

You're right. I mean, and, and, and having those conversations and letting people know that, hey, and you had mentioned it, yes, your disability is something that people can see. Mine is is not my, you know, my disorder is something that people cannot see. But having raised conversations and making people realize that just because it's it's visible, doesn't mean that you have to assume that I'm not. And you clearly are very capable of taking care of yourself. A Paralympic athlete, you went to college, on your I mean, these are all things that are very huge indicators of somebody who is very much 100% self sufficient in multiple ways. And that is the thing that people need to start getting past is that, you know, if I'm, if I am a blind individual, and I have been say, since I was born, you would have to make the assumption that I am 100% capable of living alone in my own home, but don't come into my home and move my couches around.

Jonathan Heider 31:07

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's funny, you say that, and I think one of the questions I get all the time with people is like, wow, how do you how do you manage to get around? How do you manage to do this? And so, as somebody who was born with my situation, it's like, well, this is all I've ever known, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, if I was born, you know, with four arms instead of two arms, you know, when I turned to you, and I said, Wow, Leanne, how do you function in life with only two arms like, that must be hard, that must be extremely difficult to live a life with? And you're like, Well, I'm I was, this is the way I know, like, I was only born with two arms. And so I kind of look at it in that same regard. And especially like you said, about the furniture situation. I mean, that's kind of my thing, too, is like, I am fully capable and independent in the house that I live in, because I have made it modified for myself, you know, so yeah, please, please don't like move my showerhead. Like is it's download so I can reach it. Um, you know, like, or the other day, or quite literally, like, one of the shirts I'm wearing now. I had housekeeping come and do my laundry, and she unbuttoned all my shirts and like, like, how much of a pain in the acid is for me to read, but my shirts, and it's just like, Please don't Don't buy my shirts, like, I'll just put them on like a, like a, like a T shirt. Like how it's like, just like, you know, like you said, you know, for wine person don't come in and move my couch. Like, just like, you understand, like, I'm self sufficient, because I have made things in such a way that work for me and to be able to, you know, get dressed and live, you know, take a shower in the way that I can, right.

Leighann Lovely 32:45

Right. You know, and that you mentioned budding your shirt. That's something that I never would have in a million years thought of. But again, yeah, you've modified and you this is something you've lived with your whole life, you've modified, these are the things that, you know, for me, I take 100% for granted for you. You same thing, somebody who was colorblind. I mean, don't go in their closet and move their clothes into different sections. I mean, because Exactly. I've talked to people who are colorblind, and they're like, oh, yeah, I have somebody line up, and then mark all of my clothes so that I know what color is. So I'm not walking into the house wearing, you know, purple and, and whatever color but if you move them around, yeah, I'm not gonna match. And it's like, oh, that that could be a funny joke to plan somebody who's colorblind. Well, not really funny. But, again, we we as humans modify our lives to fit the way that we live. Yes. It's just as simple as that, you know, and unless you're asking for help, and I say this, the same with advice, unless you're asking for help or advice. Don't be one of those people who go and just give it.

Jonathan Heider 34:02

Absolutely, I think, you know, unless it's one of those things that like unsolicited advice can be harmful. Especially even if it's someone close, you know that some people always have boundaries, even if it's, you know, a significant other and they give you unsolicited advice, you kind of want to, you know, throw them in the wall of it, but like, even people who are the most closest to you, you respect the boundaries, and you wait until they ask you like, hey, I need your help. You know, then at that point, you come to them with open arms and say, here's, here's how I can help. And so yeah, I think that's super important respecting those boundaries and the people that around you. Absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 34:42

I know that there's been multiple times that my husband wants to throw me across the room because he's like, I was just telling you, I didn't ask for advice. And I'm like, Oh, crap. Like, Yep, sorry, honey, and he's like, now I just don't even feel like wanting to talk about this. anymore. And I'm like, right?

Jonathan Heider 35:01

Well, that's exactly it. And that's a situation as you go into shutdown mode, when there's unsolicited advice is then it kind of creates that barrier and creates that strain on, you know what you are trying to accomplish. So it kind of, then you get in your head a little bit more. Yeah, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 35:17

Yeah, totally. So tell me a little bit more about your I mean, about split star. I mean, I'd love to hear about that.

Jonathan Heider 35:26

Yeah, so Split Stars, my own business that I opened up a couple of years ago, now, I left the agency when the pandemic first hit. And then that's when I decided to kind of go my own direction. And so I do keynote speaking, workshop facilitation. And then for larger business and medium to large businesses, nonprofits, as well as colleges and universities, I do open, open the opportunity for business coaching for them for not individuals, but for the businesses themselves. So my focus is a lot on diversity inclusion, I talked a lot about earlier about the components of view. And that is a big part that I talked about, and understanding what advocacy is, and one of the biggest things for me was split star is advocacy starts with you, you cannot create cultural change, you cannot create opportunities for a more inclusive environment without advocating for yourself first, you know, you talk about a lot with, you know, your situations, and it's all about, you know, advocating for you first, and then putting that out into the world, as opposed to looking externally towards trying to adapt the world before you you know, we were just talking about, you know, within the how own household, that's a perfect example there about how I showerhead at a certain height, I have my shirts all buttoned already, you know, advocating for yourself and making the world work for you, as opposed to forcing the world to change, you have to adapt to the world around you through using what you have available. And so that is the biggest thing that I speak about, and how you can take the components that who of who you are, and utilizing what you've got in your own pot of chili, and what's on your spice rack to make the best of your situation. And so I do that through the keynote speaking, the workshop facilitation and the business consulting.

Leighann Lovely 37:07

That's amazing. Got everything that you said, I want to I want to sign up, I want to see you speak. I mean, it just it's it's everything that I and we talked about, you know, being very much like minded. And it's just it's awesome. That's great.

Jonathan Heider 37:25

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I love like I said, your, your approach to life. And you know, I think humanization is such a thing. When it comes to improving society and creating a cultural change that is, the more we humanize people and see them for all the components that make up who they are, I think we're able to relate to people more and have a better understanding and respect people on a higher level, because we can see where they're coming from.

Leighann Lovely 37:50

Yes. And the more that businesses start to understand that each employee that work at their organization, are individuals, the more that they will retain their employees and that they will Yeah, that that the culture shift will happen. And that employees will find that true happiness within organizations. It's just, you know, and I preached that constantly about, you know, you, if you want to retain you want a happy work environment, you have to stop treating them like the masses and start treating them as individual people. And it's not that difficult. It's just a simple, you know, recognition that they're appreciated for who they are, you know, not just what they do.

Jonathan Heider 38:41

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the individuality part of it. And I think we're in such a big age right now, where diversity is big thing. And diversity is important to, you know, to have a diverse background of people on staff, you know, whether you have, you know, somebody with a disability, someone who's, you know, black or Asian, or somebody who's you know, an older person, a younger person, you want to have that diversity, but it's also important to then take a moment and reflect on what's beyond just that person who might be disabled, and understanding what they also bring to the table. Besides, the fact that you can brag that you have a disabled person on staff is like, This person also has a lot of incredible skills, and, you know, creating like in the humanization, that individuality of the components that make up who they are.

Leighann Lovely 39:27

Yeah, and you know, it's interesting because I talk I spoke with and one of my episodes, his name is Le Rivera and Ruben Guyana, and I talked to them about a program called the way out, and they advocate for individuals who are previously incarcerated. And they work with companies on trying to help those companies hire in, you know, individuals who are really trying to get their life back on track, find opportunities, and that can key point that you just said is it's not about an individual or a company saying, Hey, we hire, you know, previously incarcerated individuals and just putting that tax credit on their, on their, their having that tax credit. It's about Yeah, truly, you know, wanting to help that individual and that individual truly wanting to change their life and then understanding that they are an individual and that they, you know, that they want to have a true career. Yeah, and that's that that should be this the standard, you know, the gold standard for every diverse individual that you hire, it shouldn't be about, Oh, yep, we are a diverse company, because we have, you know, all of these different backgrounds, it should, it should be about, hey, we, we have all these diverse individuals who can bring XYZ to the table, because they may see this different or they may bring this to the table. And I'm so tired of the companies or companies putting that stamp of approval, because, hey, we just hired this person with, you know, a disability or we, you know, have military. And we are going to, you know, showcase that we have a veteran on staff purely for the the PR move of that.

Jonathan Heider 41:18

Well, it's tokenizing is what you're doing, they truly what you're doing is tokenizing. And trying to remove the concept of tokenization is, I think key to move forward as a society.

Leighann Lovely 41:30

So this has been an awesome conversation, I can't believe that we are already coming to time. So I have one more question, which is the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be? And why?

Jonathan Heider 41:52

Um, let's see. I mean, there have been so many pinpoints of career pivots in my life. Um, but I think one of the points I had mentioned, I think one of the biggest points right off the bat, you know, was back in 2008, when I met Jimmy flowers, and I just was just kind of this high energy kid that, you know, yes, I was involved in Paralympic swimming, but for him to say I see your potential, I see what you can do it introducing me to say, hey, I want you at the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center, I think was one of the biggest, I think, is the biggest pivot points in my life, because that helped teach me discipline and respect. And helped me kind of shape my purpose into advocating and trailblazing, because since he believed in me, that I could be at the caliber to live amongst the great at the train Center helped me shape the future, that I knew that through being a successful athlete at the Paralympic Training Center, that I was then going to be able to be a successful architect, architectural designer and complete architecture college, that I could then open up my own business at the discipline that he taught me. And being at the Olympic and Paralympic Training Center. I don't think any of us would have happened, if I didn't have a conversation with him back in 2008.

Leighann Lovely 43:15

That's awesome. People always come into our lives at the right time. Usually it is when we are, you know, much more seasoned in our career. But for you it was at a at a young impressionable age. And, you know, you really started your career path when you were a very young you know, kid. Yeah. And and that is is extremely unique. You know, you obviously, you grew up fast, but that it really paved the way for you to, you know, eventually have your own business and and that's amazing. Thank you. Yeah, your story is definitely unique, and I love it.

Jonathan Heider 44:02

Well, I appreciate it, and so is yours. And so I admire, like I said, what you're doing to bring a new perspective into HR and to people to create this. Like I said, I knew outlet that they may not have looked before. I think that's absolutely phenomenal with what you do as well.

Leighann Lovely 44:22

Thank you. And if people are looking to reach out to you for you know, your workshop, you're mean to bring you in as a speaker. How would they go about doing that?

Jonathan Heider 44:34

Absolutely. So my website is split-star.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn, as well as Instagram at split star. I also have my own LinkedIn pages Jonathan Heider, so you're more than welcome to find me any of those places. Again, the website is split-star.com.

Leighann Lovely 44:57

Awesome, Jonathan. Thank you. so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It's been an amazing conversation. Just like all the other cons are just like the other conversation that we had. So I really appreciate your time.

Jonathan Heider 45:10

Thank you as well.

Leighann Lovely 45:11

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible so don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us have a wonderful day

E-mail - heider.d.jonathan@gmail.com

Website - https://www.split-star.com/

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/jonathan-d-heider

Instagram - Split.Star

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Roger Wolkoff, an expert in Emotional Intelligence is a highly empathetic person and one that found his passion for coaching and public speaking in hopes to create work environments that people don't want to leave.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:04

I am honored to introduce my guest today I have probably one of the most authentic conversations I had when I first met Roger. Let me introduce Roger Wolkoff. Roger is a motivational speaker who helps you create teams and companies people don't want to leave. You hire him for your for his expertise in emotional intelligence and appreciation. He doesn't give up on people he believes they will find a way to move forward and improve. How does he do this Rogers programs are high content and motivational in style and tone. He delivers stories, ideas and keys to unlock what's already inside you. Roger has over 20 years of expert interpersonal communication and team building experience. Audience raved about his two most popular keynotes how to thrive in times of uncertainty and create companies people don't want to leave. Roger's core messages center around trust, communication, and emotional intelligence. He helps leaders and high performing teams communicate with clarity, conviction and positive intent. He is an advocate of Clifton Strengths Finder, VIA Character Strengths and everything surrounding positivity. Roger lives in Madison, Wisconsin. He currently serves as president of the national speaker, Speaker Association Wisconsin Chapter. He loves to travel bike and read science fiction. He is a big fan of baseball, Pinball, and all things. Tesla. Welcome Roger. I'm so excited to have you here with me today.

Roger Wolkoff 02:45

Thanks for having me. I appreciate you inviting me on the podcast.

Leighann Lovely 02:48

Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. So why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself in your backgrounds.

Roger Wolkoff 02:55

Oh, thanks for asking. You bet. Well, as I like to introduce myself, to others, I'm a recovering project manager kind of backed in Yeah, back into the career many, many years ago. And I've been out of it for about six years. So I'm originally from New York, and I've been in the Midwest and in Madison, Wisconsin now about 30 years. So spent a lot of time in corporate. And the one thing I learned is that human behavior basically fascinates me. And we're going to get into this in a little bit. But emotional intelligence fascinates me too. Because I believe that that's kind of at the root of how it speaks to how we understand and react and respond in relationships. So that's another piece. And lastly, I I'm a bit of a geek. I'm a bit of a geek at heart. Yeah. I love sci fi, particularly time travel or alternate history, parallel universe stuff. So I tend to binge watch a fair amount of Netflix stuff for Amazon stuff. And a big, big reader in that area. Yeah, and I think I might have put it on my bio. I'm a I'm a huge Tesla electric car fan. You did not know that about me. I don't own one yet. But I'm just fascinated with the technology and I'm gonna get me one of one of them someday.

Leighann Lovely 04:15

You know, it's it's so fun. I remember reading a story. Oh my god, it wasn't that long ago of a CEO that owned a company and during the pandemic I believe he stopped taking a salary or cut his salary like massive and didn't his employees end up buying him with with their extra a Tesla or something

Roger Wolkoff 04:41

I heard something like that. I didn't know if it was a you know, one of those urban legend things. I didn't research it, but I wouldn't be surprised. No,

Leighann Lovely 04:47

I actually I saw a picture of it. And yes, all the employees standing out in the parking lot. And he had like, dreamed of God. I wish I could. Now I have to go and research that because I'm I'm pretty Sure, that it that's what it was a he had dreamed of owning one one day and he had been like, saving to buy one. And yeah, he he stopped taking a salary drawing a salary so that he could keep his, his company open and all of the employees then pitched in, and eventually were able to, to buy him his dream car. That's, that's awesome. But it is awesome. Yeah, yeah, that, you know, there are amazing things happening these days with what one company owners, business owners, you know, people are doing for other people. It's just, it's so amazing. But another thing that you said that I just love your that you're kind of a geek, I, I think that we all are, in some way, a geek in our own way, and the things that we dig into, and I'm self proclaimed HR geek, human relations geek i i just love talking about relationships and how we can do better with so many different aspects and on the people front of things. And some people say, you know, Leanne, the things you talked about aren't necessarily HR. But if you think of the word it's it's human resource. It's a resource for humans. I think in a way, aren't we all kind of a resource for other humans?

Roger Wolkoff 06:22

We are in and I like your definition of it. And I'm sure you and I both run into people where that's not the case. Yeah. And so perhaps, I know, our paths intersected so that we can just help more people on our paths one person at a time.

Leighann Lovely 06:40

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. You know, I run into some amazing people all the time. That's, again, why I'm such a geek, I love to talk about this stuff. Now, you have an amazing background. But for the last nearly what, six years, you've been a professional, motivated, motivational speaker. Tell me, you know, how did you find your way down that path?

Roger Wolkoff 07:03

Well, thank you. Thank you for that. Thank you for saying that. How did I find my way down here? It's a great question. So one of the things I enjoyed about my job as project manager was, I it was my job to help remove barriers for people so that they could complete the tasks on the projects that and what I learned along the way, it was one of the best ways to do that. You know, we needed to build relationships and trust. That's how this work, right? So very early on in the project, I'd have maybe anywhere from, you know, five to 10 people and I took 15 minutes with each person. And we go on a little 15 minute 20 minute coffee walk. And I'd say honestly, I'd you know, if you and I were walking in, I'd say Leighann, tell me a story. And most of the time you look at me, like I'd lost my mind. And I said, No, tell me a story. Tell me tell me something about the end. What's on your mind right now? What's going on with you? What what tell me about Yeah, you can tell me something about your family, you could tell me something about pert, you know, something personal, you could tell me something about work. But whatever was going on with you at that moment, right? That that was in your mind, we could talk about it. And these these chats were always in confidence. And we got to so there would be a reveal on their part and reveal on my part, and we got to know each other a little better. So what I also learned was that helped me facilitate meetings better, you know, this, this gift of learning how to talk with people. So I'm not going to roll the dice. Or I'm not going to go figure out where to be project manager and do work that I don't enjoy as much and go figure out what I want to do. And motivational speaking training came to mind because that's when I was happiest when I was training and in front of people and delivering messages and helping people see the light bulb go on, you know what I'm saying? And that's what I enjoy about the the motivational speaking the training part that not everyone in the audience is going to have a light bulb go on over their head. But I figured 20% of the people are there because they want to be there. 20% are there because they either have to be or they don't want to be there. And the remaining 60% If I did my math, right, are there because they do they're open to being influenced one or one way or the other?

Leighann Lovely 09:16

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I love that you start off with tell me a story. People are so much more comfortable if they're presented or if it's presented that way. versus you know, tell me about yourself or tell me you know, I say it to my daughter all the time. Tell me a story and she says it back mommy told me a story. And and it's it's really cute because it one it opens up the creative minds. Totally. And when people when people are when you take away that fear when you kind of break down those those barriers, all of the sudden it's much easier to have open and honest conversation.

Roger Wolkoff 10:01

Isn't it though. And I found by leading also leading with something that that if you open and be a little vulnerable, the other person is going to follow without even thinking about it. Right? They're subconsciously going to think oh, okay, wow, now I feel like it's safe. Let's see how save I can be by revealing something I may tell you that I enjoy watching movies going out for sushi and skiing? Well, maybe that's just a small way of us, you know, oh, wait a minute, Oh, I like to go out to eat to really? Oh, do you? What kind of food do you like? Right? So right there, we're often running to a conversation that we might not have opened up a little bit about my likes,

Leighann Lovely 10:41

Right? Absolutely. You know, I used to be picked on way back in the day, and I completely understand. But people would say, you know, you're you're very quick to tell vulnerable things about yourself, you're very quick to be open about the fact that you have bipolar disorder. Now, not in business. This was in my personal relationships, right. And somebody once said to me, you know, maybe you should keep that to yourself. And I thought, well, you know, if you're uncomfortable with it, you don't have to, you don't have to be around me. Right. But when it came to my personal life, that's, that's the way I've always been. Now, years ago, it was not in my professional life, that was not something I was ever going to talk about. But what I realized was that the more open I was, the more genuine the relationships that I had in my life were. And it was only until recently that I realized that I could have true genuine relationships in my professional life as well, by being open about that, obviously, not just blurting it out all the time. But being your right, there's, there's nothing wrong with being vulnerable, people need to have a little bit of vulnerability people want to buy from somebody that they are able to be vulnerable with, and you understand people so much better when you can when you connect, and have that. So I would love to hear a little bit more about you know, your philosophies on, you know, the the coaching aspect and the our, yeah, the coaching aspect, or the the speaking aspect, you know, how did you really start to hone in on your sweet spots? And what really resonated with people?

Roger Wolkoff 12:27

Great question. I learned that the short answer is I've learned by listening. So it's kind of funny, right? Speaking, speaking is about listening. And so I sought a lot of information. Some of it came from the gut. And then I realized I needed to listen to what people wanted to hear. And so when I talk about motivational speaking, a lot of my programs are they're extremely interactive, you know, it's not just me standing up front, 45 minutes for an hour of me. And so what I'm what I'm getting at here is it became It soon became a mutually beneficial journey. And by that I mean, that I get as much as I give. So when I'm giving and making space for people to give on their part, oh my gosh, it enriches the conversation so much. I remember very early on thinking, Oh, my gosh, I have got to have all this content, I got to be the expert, how am I going to be the expert, right, all this talk going on in my head. And what I realized was I quickly got into my groove of listening. And so with my style of talking conversation, humor, planting humor, and not at the expense of others, but using situations to help people feel using humor and to help people feel more comfortable in situations. That's that that quickly evolved into my philosophy of talking about emotional intelligence, because emotional intelligence isn't a problem that people wake up thinking, Oh, I have a problem in emotional intelligence. Where do I go? We we think about emotional intelligence, like problems, a fair amount, like we ruminate on how we communicate with somebody we ruminate on. How did I say that? Did I come across a certain way? Gee, I wish I could have taken that back. Right? These are all things, social aspects, right? Social awareness, aspects of emotional intelligence that kind of keep us up at night. And so that's where I really attached to emotional intelligence and assessments like the DISC assessment for how we communicate. That is how I developed and continue to develop my, my particularly my particular philosophy,

Leighann Lovely 14:37

That's great. And, you know, it's funny. We now our generation, the generation that exists in the workplace, right now, we're, we're learning about emotional intelligence, which you would think that, gee, isn't that something that should be taught as children? Shouldn't we start teaching this? So right You smile, and you kind of laugh and you're like, well, it shouldn't have been I mean, shouldn't this be something that as we're raising our children, we, we explain to them that, if you're mad, that's okay. But here's how you deal with being mad, here's how to properly but for so long, and not so much in, you know, my growing up, my, my parents were great at, you know, kind of help, it's gotten better each generation. Now use us you hear parents regularly, you know, I'm at the playground or I'm at somewhere and I hear parents saying, you know, to their kids, it's okay to be mad, but you you're not allowed to, you know, hit. And this is how we can, we can, you know, use your anger constructively. And you're, you're actually hearing, you know, adults having those conversations with their four year olds, or their three, you know, three and five and six year olds. Now, and this is the basics to, you know, the, I mean, the very basics to emotional intelligence. And by the time that generation is in the workforce, they're going to go emotional Intel, what I mean, they're going to have this complete, right, it's going to be a complete and total different understanding of, of emotional intelligence, that it's going to have to be a completely different book on, you know, more of like emotional intelligence in the professional world versus just general emotional intelligence. But our society is, and again, we're always learning new things, or we're always evolving as humans and people, but you would think that we would have gotten this already, but we haven't. And it's just, it's just interesting that, you know, we're finally having those. Yes. Being happy is good. You know, being sad is, is okay, being angry is okay. But you're not allowed to go and scream at somebody else. Because you're angry, it's not there. And I love the poll, you had a post on LinkedIn that just really grabbed my attention. And that's where this kind of was going. You said, emotions are not problems to be solved? Yeah, it really grabbed my attention, because they're not.

Roger Wolkoff 17:17

They arent, and I'm glad, I'm glad you enjoy that one. That's how that's one of the first quotes I kick off the program within it, it gets people thinking so it that one speaks volumes to me too. So I'm glad it resonated with you. And I got to tell you, the whole quote is this emotions are not problems to be solved. They are signals to be interpreted. And that's not my quote, it comes from Veronica toogle Ava. She's the one who we attribute that to, and she's a poet, spoken word artist. It resonates with me, because I personally am highly sensitive to people's feelings I grew up in a space where emotions were not talked about there were there were negative connotations to emotions, we just weren't allowed to express emotions. And so that was an extreme struggle for me as a kid, because I'm a highly emotional, sensitive person. And so I learned growing up in that environment, I became highly, highly empathic to, to other to the situation in the road to other people's feelings to their moods, they're all kinds of stuff. So and that kind of stuff is this, you know, it was their facial expressions, it was the tone they were using. I was always analyzing Well, wait a minute that what you're saying is not jiving with your facial expressions, your body language, you know, there's something going on here. So it was a lot of survival mode type of stuff that I had to deal with. And so when I saw that emotions are signals to be interpreted, I'm like, yeah, they are. That's how that's how we do that. And I believe many of us, all of us, many of us, are programmed to respond to cues, whether we know it or not everyone has something in them that they respond somehow. And I think it's fascinating, particularly what we choose to do with that information we interpret and that information we receive, right, we're going to respond, we're going to react first, right? There's always reacting, you know, you say something that makes me angry, I can choose to swear or use some body language to tell you that I'm angry. But it's a different thing to process what you say and then respond appropriately or appropriate to the situation or appropriate to us. So, yeah, the emotions at times, we tend to think they are problems be solved, but they aren't.

Leighann Lovely 19:47

Right. Right and for so long. You know, and again, as a child I, for so long. My emotions were something that somebody else was trying to solve for me. You know, being somebody who was, I was, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder in my 20s. But I struggled with, you know, other things as a child, so it was constantly, you know, you're sad, how do we make you happy? How do we, let's, let's figure this out, you know, what is you know, and it got to the point where it was just hide the emotions, because sometimes even showing those emotions, it gave the attention that I didn't want. So then it becomes, you know, just burying deep and down, and let's just pretend that you're not or, you know, just, again, I'm going down a path, I don't didn't necessarily want to go down. But there are, there's so many things that, you know, emotions that we learned as a kid that weren't necessarily or aren't necessarily the, the right course, to the way that we should. And we have learned now to, through emotional intelligence through and when did that book come? I mean, that book came out like, what it's been 10 Is it been 1014?

Roger Wolkoff 21:04

It's been a while I remember being introduced to it, you know, maybe 15, almost 20 years ago. Daniel Goleman. And Travis Bradbury and Jean graves. So I take a lot of work from Yeah, yeah, it's been around and, and, and what I loved about what you said earlier, is that, you know, we understand it now. And in the future, I'm hoping we can slice and dice it and get more fine tuned with it. You know, we have the opportunity to do that the more people embrace, embrace it, and practice it, and do research on it.

Leighann Lovely 21:37

Yeah. And now that you say that, I do remember the first time that I read that was a very long time ago, and it's, but it hit really mainstream, probably within the last 10. Like, about eight Yeah, so it wasn't long time ago that it cuz I remember somebody giving us me saying you should read this. And I'm like, Oh, I already read that, but a long time ago. But it's it's so interesting that you know, how people think that you that you have one control over your emotions? Oh, well, you shouldn't feel that way about this. Well, how do I have I you know, that's, that's something that's going on in my brain chemistry, that's, it's a, it's, you know, an inherit reaction that doesn't, that we don't physically have control over. It's, it's a chemical reaction that's happening within my body, and I'm going to feel the way that I'm going to feel I'm gonna have a reaction that I'm gonna have. Now maybe if I had more understanding of a situation that's, that's going on, I may have a different reaction. But what's happening is not your place to solve it. It's just trying to understand it. And I think more people need to have that desire to understand other people. And really, most things come down to trying to just be empathetic and understanding to other people, it goes back to the saying of, hey, walk a mile in somebody else's shoes. I guarantee, right, you're a guarantee that you're going to come back and you're going to have a different outlook on the situation. So you know, I'm interested to know, you've been you've been at this now for, like I said, nearly six years. So obviously, things have changed within the last two, and I can't believe that, you know, my gosh, the pandemic hits. Well, I can't What 19, 2019? Right. Yeah, yeah. 2020

Roger Wolkoff 23:28

Okay. Right into February, March 2020.

Leighann Lovely 23:31

Right, we're in we're in 2022. Now, aren't we? Yeah, I know, it's worth I know. So I can't believe it's been that long. It's it's insane to think that it's that this has been been part of our lives for that long. But so obviously, the the world looks very different today, over the last two years than it did when you originally started doing what you were doing. So what has changed? I mean, has, has your job been impacted? A great deal in, in the things that you address and the things that you talk about when you go and do? Do what you do?

Roger Wolkoff 24:08

Yeah, it changed dramatically, obviously, from being on a stage to being behind a camera. And that was fine. That that I quickly turned. But in terms of what my job is it, the pandemic and everything surrounding the pandemic, really, in my opinion, accentuated people's emotions, all across the spectrum. And we're seeing the effects of that we see reports of that coming out and some of the things that I that I started to do early on. I told you, I do interactive, a lot of interactive work. And one of the questions that I asked in all of my programs was, what emotions are you feeling right now? And I asked people to put three emotions in just three words. What are you feeling right now? And the three that came that that continue to come up the most often are tired, anxious, exhausted, you know, and I was like, wow, tired and exhausted. Okay? So those are those really go to the top in words like them go to the top. Sprinkled throughout there our messages are our words like hope curious, excited things like that. So it depends on where people are feeling. So the way that my job has changed, it's turned the dial up on paying attention to how people want to be seen and heard. If you want my opinion, glad you asked on what I think the great resignation is about, right? That's what I think has happened now with companies and how it's changed my job. People are looking for answers. And it's some of the answers have been the same all along, people want to be seen and heard. And if they're not being seen and heard, then they are leaving and starting their own companies starting other work doing something else that gives them joy, or jumping ship and going to a company that is going to listen to them. So for me what what it's done. It's the way it's impacted my job is it means that I too, and listening more to other people. And I've had to pay attention to my own particular burnout, my anxiety, keep my eyes out for you know how I'm dealing with my needs of being seen and heard. And for me, that shows up what I used to do a lot of in person networking. Not sure if it comes through, but I'm an extrovert. And so I really I enjoy being around people, I enjoy thinking around people. So what it meant for me was I had to change the way that I get my energy and, and pay attention to safety at the same time. So the way that it's changed is I'm having different conversations with companies. And I'm continuing to do what I did very early on in my career, which was listen more intently to what to what they need.

Leighann Lovely 27:01

And I suppose that it's from somebody who is very much an empath, you're used to being in the room with somebody who's reading the energy of individuals read the energy of people.

Roger Wolkoff 27:16

Yeah. Boy, did that have to change. I remember the first big zoom presentation I was doing. And I found myself missing that right. You know, normally I would be in the room. I'd be greeting people. I'd be talking to people what brought you here? What do you love about the city where you are? What do you love about the commune, I'd be engaging people in conversation and in conversation. And for me, I mean, it was also like filling me with energy. I'm like, you can see me kind of moving over here, I'm like ready to go on screen. And I had to find new ways to do that. And so that meant I now interact with people early, when I come on a virtual presentation, I engage them in the chat, or I come up with an exercise that gets everybody engaged. So I can tell through words and perhaps body language, and facial, facial language, what kind of group or crowd I have and make some interpretations that way. And I experimented with that early on and so far I've been on par with and doing well with with that. But yeah, it was quite an adjustment.

Leighann Lovely 28:26

Yeah, I can imagine and, and I'm very much like you I get great energy from being around other people I try to, you know, try to step into a crowd or I gravitate towards the energy in the room, you know, the people who are laughing the people who are, you know, excitable in the room, I have a tendency to gravitate towards those people versus the quiet people who are sitting at a table, you know, and I'm talking about, like, networking group, you're not going to find me sitting quietly at a table waiting for an event to start and you're going to you're gonna see me, you know, Flit flitting around the room talking to everybody. And you know, being the person that's, you know, being told three times, hey, the program is going to start we'll sit down and I'm going yes, yeah, I know. I know. I just got to get this one last word in. You know, it should be no wonder I run a podcast I I'm forcing people to sit down with me and talk with you know, it's right. There are people who get their energy from that. And then there's the opposite, where that exhausts them. And by the end of an event, they are running out the door completely ready to go home. Isolate and, and just, they need a break. And I right, and, hey, my husband is that way. After, you know, being around a ton of people. He's like, I can't I can't I just I just need a beat. I need to go relax, go play my video game. And I'm like, Okay, I don't get it. Like I have no understanding of it. I am understand like that you need that. I'll give that to you. But it doesn't make sense in my head. I don't understand why. I'm like, Well, I'm totally like revved up and ready to go. Let's do it again right now. You're syco

Roger Wolkoff 30:15

No, I get it. I learned early on, there were some people who coached me that in a group, like in an interactive session, call out the people who are quiet. And that seemed to not go that went against my grain. And so I stopped doing it. And I looked for I would look people in the eyes, and if they engaged, engage, but if they didn't, then that meant to me they were not comfortable and not ready to be called on. And so I was rewarded with that with with feedback is what I'm saying by reward after, after one of my programs in September, everybody was coming back from lunch, and a group of three women stopped me. And they say, Oh, we enjoyed the presentation, I said, thank you. And they said, I want to thank you so much for, you know, noticing that we did not want to engage, we've been in in sessions just like this. And presenters will always call on us because they think we're a challenge. And they want you know, it's about them. And, you know, they just want to they just want to make us talk and we want to say thank you, because this is one of the first times that that's never happened. And I thought, wow, wow. It, it validated what I thought about, you know, being able to read an audience incense, perhaps, correctly or incorrectly, but mostly correctly, that there are times in places for putting, asking people to step outside their comfort zone. So it's another learning and I won't do you know, I won't do that. I won't call out people in chat either. If they're not responding on Zoom, either, you know, if you're going to participate, you're going to participate. So just another awareness, as we talked about that, you know, in respecting where they come from,

Leighann Lovely 31:59

right, there are certain people who like to be pushed. And then then there, there are a great deal of people who don't want to be pushed, they want to come absorb the information and walk away. And you clearly have figured out a way to, to understand who those people are. And that's, that's a gift. That is definitely a gift because then there's me, I'm just espousal walk up to anybody, and just be like, Hey, I'm in your face, talk to me. Yeah, when they don't respond, I do. Let them go off. You know, I let them off the hook and walk away and all that, like, You're crazy. Anyways, okay, so we're coming to time. So I'm going to ask you the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your in your life or your career path? When would that be in white? Do you want me to repeat that?

Roger Wolkoff 32:49

I got to. Okay, I got you. I follow the thread. I find the thread. Yeah, what a great question for the season. I applaud that. For me, I gotta tell you, when I took a an assessment, it was called Managing personal growth. This was while I was in corporate. So I took managing personal growth about 10 to 15 years ago. And it was it was a an assessment and instrument that my manager and I took. And the course was about identifying my values and the skills required to do the work that I was doing as a project manager. And I, I answer as honestly as I could. So I love the part about values. It's where I found out about, you know, I value freedom mine, I value pleasure, I enjoy experiences, that was a great part. The fun part was when the the magic behind the scenes crossed the skills with what my manager said my job should be. And what I answered. There was only a 5% overlap. I was like, huh, this ought to be a fun conversation. Wow. Yeah. And thank goodness, I had a very kind manager, Brenda, she, she said, I'm not surprised. And I thought, Wow, that's great. So immediately, we had a very kind conversation. So the aha moment for me, the big difference was, I was doing work that was not fulfilling me. And it was a pivotal moment because it set me on a path to say well, what kind of work do you enjoy? It stopped me from saying I should be doing x I should be making X amount of money I should should write, you know, we know about what happens when you should on yourself. So I, I thought, okay, she said, What do you want to do? I said, I want to get up in front of people in train, I want to I want to, I want to see light bulbs go off on you know, I want them I want them to feel like you know that they make a difference, right? How do I go about doing that? I was just very broad with it. And she said, Well, let's get you on a path to do that. And we started and it took me it took me another three four years before I finally listened. And to the advice there I was really I was my own personal barrier. But but that time taking that assessment, finding my values and realizing that there was some good things that I that I could do as a project manager, I mean, I, I was a good project manager, I just didn't enjoy doing some of this stuff. So I took what I enjoyed out of it, like I said earlier, facilitating, being able to work a room, being able to identify barriers work with people. And that's when I started on my journey to figure out how to make a career out of it and start my own business.

Leighann Lovely 35:31

That's amazing. Now, you said she wasn't surprised. Right? How surprised were you?

Roger Wolkoff 35:40

I know, it's interesting. That's a great question. Leann. I, I don't think I made room for surprise. I was so fearful at the time that I was going to get fired. That I was going to get found out that I you know, that somebody was going to realize that I really didn't enjoy this kind of work. And that I so how surprised was I? If I look back on it, I would have to say I was not very, you know, looking back on it when it died when it started listing out the things that you know, I meet that were highly valued in the in the work, and how much I enjoyed compared to how much I enjoyed them. That was not a surprise. So honestly, I can tell you right now, it wasn't that much of a surprise.

Leighann Lovely 36:25

Right? You deep down, you knew that you did not enjoy the work. It was a job that you went to do and you

Roger Wolkoff 36:36

Go to Job, show up, do work, get paid? Repeat, you know, and there wasn't, in my opinion, any room for joy or dreaming about what it is I really wanted to do. And yeah, let's learn learned.

Leighann Lovely 36:50

Right now, how many people do you think are out there? That that's what they do?

Roger Wolkoff 36:57

They? Yeah, just go to work punch ticket, get paid. Come back, do it again. I don't boy. Gosh, I don't know. I'd say based on what, based on what I read, I'd say anyway, this is a rough guess 60 to 80% of people are not doing work that they enjoy. And I think that has to do with how engaged they feel in the work now being engaged. I think that's a two way street, it's up to the employee and the employer. But based on the data, I'd say it's somewhere around that, that people are not doing work that they were either meant to do or that they enjoy doing.

Leighann Lovely 37:31

Right. And, and I don't think that it's it's that hard of the fix. Because people can go and people can go and do a job I could. If I needed to provide for my family, I could go and do. Right, whatever every day. And I could enjoy it if the company found a way to make me feel truly valued. Now, what happened when you got your results to that was that your manager didn't say, Well, how dare you not enjoy this? She said, how can we build on this? How can we? How can we offer something more that you will enjoy? And eventually, you know, you left them but you found more fulfillment in trying new things and trying to get a little bit more. So you did stay for what another three years?

Roger Wolkoff 38:28

Right? Another three, four years? Yeah, right.

Leighann Lovely 38:31

So it sometimes it's not about the work so much. Because there are individuals out there who don't mind the work. They're not not necessarily fulfilled by the work. They may not have skills to do anything else. But if their company were to offer them an awesome environment, offer them i Hey, you're doing a really great job. We're having a company picnic this weekend, bring your family, we'd love to see you there we really want and truly engage in their employees. I guarantee that that employee would be at least at least 25 to 30% happier at that employment. And just that little I mean, and that's just the the beginning. Now with every other employee at that company had a better attitude, and enjoyed going to that job because their employer also, you know, treated them well. I guarantee that number would go from 22 to 30 up to 40% because all of a sudden now you have employees engaging with other employees. Now they're not standing around the watercooler talking about how shitty their employer is. They're talking about, Hey, did you see the game? Hey, did you and you have camaraderie happening? Totally. Totally. And I just And yes, you know I say oh, it's not that hard of a fix. We're talking about overhauling the culture of every company in the world. Well, we're in the United States at least. But it happens when a company decides we need to make a change. That's the first step. Right? It is, and nothing's nothing ever happens. ever happens if you don't make a decision to make it happen, I guess. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's got to start somewhere. And there are so many coaches, there are so many companies out there that are popping up saying, hey, we want to help you with that. We can make your company better, we can offer this, Hey, come listen to my podcast I'm trying to help you. Right. And then I can maybe put you in contact with somebody who can be a motivational speaker for you and talk to you.

Roger Wolkoff 40:52

Right, that's the way this all works. And that's why I was saying Were you and I are doing great work and helping people, one person, one group at a time. And that's the value that I love about being on podcasts like yours that is doing such good work. So thank you for keeping the message going. And thank you for for having me on.

Leighann Lovely 41:13

Thank you so much, Roger, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time today. And again, we are doing great work on you know, you just have an amazing background. And you know, maybe one of these days I'll have the opportunity to I don't know hear you speak.

Roger Wolkoff 41:28

Maybe. Maybe I get out there.

Leighann Lovely 41:31

All right. Thank you so much.

Roger Wolkoff 41:35

You're welcome. Thank you, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 41:36

If you are interested in reaching out to Roger Wolkoff. You can reach him at his website on www dot Roger walkoff.com or reach out to him on LinkedIn. You can also reach out to him at his email address. Roger at Roger wall cough calm. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Roger’s Profile - linkedin.com/in/rogerwolkoff

Website - rogerwolkoff.com

Email - roger@rogerwolkoff.com

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Two amazing women with a mission, one close to the heart and for an amazing cause.

Denise Schamems and Chelsea Budde Co-Founders of Good Friend Inc.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:05

This is going to be an awesome episode today. I am talking with two amazing women. In fact, this company was referenced in Episode 4 when I spoke with Alejandra Fraga good friend, Inc. It is a 501 C three public charity dedicated to creating autism awareness, teaching acceptance of differences and fostering empathy for individuals with autism. Both of these women through good friend Inc. have provided Autism Awareness, Acceptance and Empathy training for more than 54,000 K4 through 10th grade students in Wisconsin since its inception in 2007 I have Denise Schamens joining me and Chelsea Budde. Denise has three children two that are neurodivergent. Due to her firsthand experiences, she served for 10 years as a school district family engagement liaison for CESA1, she has served as cofounder and creative director. Her passion lies in the creative pursuit within and outside the organization. As creative director, she is a four time short film director, editor, a theatrical set designer, a university guest lecturer, and a frequent conference presenter in 2013. She became the first generation of facilitator for Sibshops, and has since led the good friend team in providing eight years of connected sibling workshops. Her latest short film has been screened in five different film festivals throughout the country and Canada. Receiving three separate awards she loves connecting people and being connected. Chelsea is the executive director and co founder of good friend Inc. Her work inspiration comes from her two neurodivergent young adult children whose journey has taught not only Chelsea but so many others in addition to being a trainer. She's also a writer, university guest lecturer, and conference presenter. While her bachelor's degree comes from St. Norbert College, her continuing education over the last 14 years with good friend ink has yielded the most valuable lessons. Welcome Denise and Chelsea. I'm so excited to have you both here with me today.

Denise Schamens 03:47

Thanks, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 03:49

So you both are so amazing. And what you do Good Friend Inc. is an amazing, an amazing organization that provides so much good information to the world. I would love to have you both tell me a little bit about how you started on this mission. Why don't you go first Denise?

Denise Schamens 04:07

Okay, I was like, usually we like, you know, when we're in person we can like look at each other who's gonna take this doesn't work so well this way? Um, well, you know, I know we're gonna get into some more meat about Good Friend, but just like the origin of how it began, I can tell you almost 15 years this August. I had gotten to the point as a parent liaison, and I think that was talked about in my bio, I was doing a support group for the District of Waukesha. And I was trying to have it be a meaningful group. And I knew there was over 150 families in the walkshop district that needed some kind of special education support. And so I I really wanted to, you know, make an impact there and I had been doing that for three years. And it was only getting the same nine to 12 parents to show up. And it was so aggravating for me. Because I wanted to, yeah, just have more of an impact my son was in first grade. And I really thought that it was time to figure out this, you know, a different way. And so I had been going into my son's classroom, and I'd sit down with his, his classmates, and I tell them about his autism and how it affected him. Sam's autism affects him mostly in his communication ability. But at that time, he was also having a lot of regulation issues and sensory issues. And so for me, I felt like I had to do a lot of explaining so that they could just understand how they could reach out or support or be a friend. And so I was doing that. And, you know, they all had such great questions. And the teachers were engaged, like, everybody was super engaged in this casual way of educating. And so I kept noodling on that and like, Alright, how can I, you know, how can this get better knowing that our district only had one guidance counselor that was traveling to all of the schools, and at the time, we had 17 elementary schools? And I'm like, how are these kids getting their questions answered, It just was frustrating to me. So I kept here I have this support group that's not really doing anything. And here, I go into the classroom. And it's like, something's bubbling here. And so I had this mom that kept coming, one of my regulars in the in the group. And she was just so opposite of me. So my background is art and fine arts and commercial art. And she comes in with binders, right? She comes in with all these resources to share with the families and I'm like, Oh, gee, so I have to talk to her. So that was Chelsea and I, you know, I said, we need to meet for coffee, I've got a little idea. I just want to throw past you. And she's like, okay, and I'll she'll tell you her side of it. But that's what we did. We met and had coffee. And, you know, the rest is history after that.

Leighann Lovely 07:03

Awesome, Chelsea, I'd love to hear your side.

Chelsea Budde 07:07

Yeah, that's, you know, pretty much without being inside Denise's head before I was coming to said meetings with said binder. I, had two kids at the time who were on the autism spectrum. And I had been working at a public relations agency up until my son was about 15 months old. And it was clear that I wasn't going to be able to stay working. And so I stayed home to be with my kiddos. And as they were going through intensive in home therapy, I was really looking for other families to connect with I had good fortune of being able to be a stay at home mom, when my kids were young, I was able to go to a lot of conferences, a lot of kind of continuing education opportunities and soak up all this information. And the internet wasn't nearly as robust, you know, 20 years ago, as it is now. So I did, I had my binders full of resources and color coded tabs because I thought, you know, I've had the luxury of being able to track all this information down. And I want to make sure that I can share it with other families who aren't as fortunate. So that was kind of my idea. I was coming to this, all of Denise's meetings armed because I was going to make sure that people had what they needed. And hopefully connect with some other families as well. So yeah, when it was getting to a point where my youngest was going to be heading to kindergarten, and I was already kicking around career wise, like, what do I do? Do I go back to the PR firm that I was writing for before I was raising these humans, and that didn't really resonate with me all that well, I knew what the culture was at that workplace. And it was not one that was conducive to being a parent at all, quite frankly, let alone a parent to kids who were neurodivergent. So when Denise approached me like, Hey, do you think we should make a movie about autism for kids without autism? Like, yeah, that sounds perfect. Let's make a curriculum, lets do a Nonprofit. And, you know, of course, we had no idea how to do any of those things. They just seem like really good ideas. And so that, you know, it was the summer of research the summer of 2007, before we incorporated as a nonprofit, and yeah, and like Denise said, the rest is history.

Leighann Lovely 09:22

And that's, that's amazing. Coming together with obviously, an understanding that you're you're doing this because you have common ground, you're experiencing life, and you're experiencing it together yet obviously separate you have separate families, but common ground so often brings people together because you have an understanding of what the two of you are experiencing at home and you you want to educate others because you know that that's the human side of life. You want other people to understand your children and what they're experiencing to better their lives, I mean, that's just, it's amazing. I just, I think the two of you are just so awesome and, and what you do.

Denise Schamens 10:10

When I'm thinking of something Leighann, as you're saying that like when, you know, tell us what brought us together was autism and our children, but what kept what helps, you know, foster this nonprofit was our positive outlook on them, and wanting to wanting to change, you know, the future for them and wanting to have an impact. And I think that has helped us remain this long, because we're, you know, we're not woe is me, you know, I have this terrible burden to live with. It's more like, you know, what, this is great. How can we, you know, help people really get it the way we get it. And we had that commonality, which I think is a very strong point.

Leighann Lovely 10:54

Right? I mean, and I remember as, as a child, not understanding any different child, you know, you you, as a young kid, elementary school, if there was a child who was different from you, most parents didn't, they didn't even know how to explain that to their child's whether that be somebody who is hearing impaired somebody who had vision, you know, loss, whether that be just the simple, and I did, I went to elementary school with a with another child who had that was hearing impaired. And I remember them trying to come in and explain that, but we, we, as children didn't know how to connect with this other students, and to have somebody come in and say, Okay, here's how you can be a good friend, to my son, would have been so beneficial, not only to myself, but to that other child to not feel alienated to not feel like he couldn't reach out or communicate or, and there were ways that we could have reached out and been there or become friends had we been given the tools to do so. And it's, and again, this is, it's a symptom of the times, you know, we can only do as good as we can with the information that we have. There's, I'm not faulting anybody at that time. It's just, but now we've come so far in how we can teach and how we can educate and the knowledge and the understanding that we have, and I commend you for what you do. And, and, you know, now the studies that that are out there are offering so much more information and allowing children to be able to, you know, understand so much more. And so that's it's just, it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. So, as you have watched your children go, you've also witnessed many other children on the spectrum grow and become adults, you know, that are entering the workforce, you know, do you have plans to educate employers? And, you know, how, what does that what does that look like for you?

Denise Schamens 13:09

Exciting stuff

Denise Schamens 13:12

It is, it's really, you know, I think Denise and I have been talking about this as parents for a while, right, you know, you start talking about this transition that happens in education in the state of Wisconsin, we start talking about that transition, like what happens after high school, and how do we prepare for it, that conversation starts when students with individualized education plans are 14 years old. And IT services can go through the public education system until they're 21. And then there's, you know, somewhere in between that 18 to 21 range, there's what's called a service cliff. And it's as if these humans just come in, kind of fall off of a system. And if you as a family aren't really deliberate and making sure they get engaged in the adult system. There's nothing left. And so we were trying to figure out, Okay, here's how we're engaging as parents, how can we engage as an organization and it's such a different world. But it's ferrets, when we were going through it, we're trying to wrap our head around it just from a family standpoint, I can tell you at one point, I thought I had this transition thing figured out, and then all of a sudden my son's Medicaid stopped accepting claims. I'm like, what, what happened there? So that was a six month process of trying to get that back on track. So when it came to, what are we doing in schools? And how do we do that with employers, we realized that we were just overthinking the whole process. What it's really about what good friends always been about is taking the people who surround someone on the autism spectrum, and making sure they better understand autistic neurology, and how to interact with humans who wrote who are neurodivergent and we're just going to basically be doing the same thing for employers. Now, employers are kind of in a mindset, some of them not enough, frankly, have diversity, equity and inclusion So when employers are thinking about DEI, sometimes they're just thinking kind of about gender equality or ethnic and racial equality. And we want them to think about neurodiversity. So about brain based equality, and what kind of accommodations do we need to do to make sure that people who are neurodivergent people who are on the autism spectrum, feel like they belong there and have a place and have a way to be able to showcase their abilities. So that's kind of where good friend is going in the employer space is making sure that, you know, recruiters are thinking about autistic talents, and hiring managers are figuring out how to onboard them. And the people who are working with an autistic colleague know how to interact with them. So this is the good stuff because this is the rest of the lifespan. And Sad to say, at this point, only four out of five autistic adults is employed. And so that's just no good. And we know as a community, we can do better. And we know that good friend can be part of helping the community do better.

Leighann Lovely 16:01

You said in there a couple of times how somebody can be prepared working with, you know, somebody who is neurodivergent. But I'm assuming there's no cookie cutter answer to that, just like working with any human. There's no cookie cutter answer, everybody is different. So where do you begin?

Denise Schamens 16:24

Well, I think what Chelsea was saying is, you know, we're we're using the same framework that we use in our education services. And so we, you know, we name it, we call it autism, and then we talk about all the areas that someone could be affected by that or impacted by that. So that could be communication that could be social, emotional, that could be sensory, that could be just all those different ways that we sit in a space and have to work, understanding where and how they're experiencing that space, and being respectful of it. And then I think the other thing that we're trying to help employers see is the value in hiring somebody with maybe a little bit different perspective, and a different way of looking at things. So seeing some value there, and then also creating a safe place for them to disclose. So that it's okay for them, you know, they're not going to be passed over for a job promotion, they're not going to you know, because of this, it's like, we just want to somewhat normalize it so that they can all be, you know, that's what we do in the schools. It's like, we're all different. We're all experiencing things in different ways. So let's talk about the way that we're experiencing some of those things. So it's just kind of, you know, getting in there deep and talking about in really understanding how that individual experiences the world.

Leighann Lovely 17:55

Okay, so it's more of the end for many of many people who might be listening, they may not be aware of what it even means to be on the spectrum, to be, you know, to have autism, right. So tell me some of the things that as an employer, you may have to be prepared for.

Chelsea Budde 18:17

So the social communication piece is usually the biggest one that people are paying attention to. I mean, when you think about how autism is diagnosed, it's not like there's a brain scan or something like that, there's no physical features that you can point to, as to whether someone is on the spectrum or not. So it's kind of a subjective assessment. And the diagnostic criteria were created by people not on the autism spectrum and without their input. So there are a lot of people who come at their autism understanding and perhaps even diagnosis or not diagnosis from different angles. But social communication seems to be a hallmark. And there's kind of like a medical model of disability and a social model of disability. So from the medical model standpoint, we talk about deficits in social communication. So, you know, maybe someone on the autism spectrum as a child doesn't have many peer relationships, maybe their social relationships are either with children much younger than they are or with adults, because adults are less judgmental, and younger children have a social competency that's better acquainted with what they're experiencing in their own bodies and minds. So, you know, that could be part of it. And then the communication part being different. So for some people on the autism spectrum, you know, conversation skills are really tough verbal processing might be delayed, it might take longer to understand what someone is saying and then to be able to formulate a reliable spoken response. So maybe part of their communication style is they prefer to text or they prefer to send an email, you know, maybe live spoken language. which is difficult, maybe eye contact is difficult with spoken language. And so they need to look away in order to gather their verbal thoughts to be able to share with somebody else. So I think that's a big thing when we talk about even interviewing, right? How does somebody interview if eye contact is tricky? And if live questions with spontaneous answers are required, that might be really tricky. So another one that Denise brought up is kind of that sensory experience. So many people on the autism spectrum, because their brains are wired differently, are going to experience sensory input differently. And so we have to think about, you know, what kind of things do we have in our work environment, that might be causing problems for people on the autism spectrum, and that work environment might be a barrier to them, you know, showing up with their best selves or being able to demonstrate their best work. So I think those are two big considerations that employers and colleagues and people on the autism spectrum themselves are going to have conversations about in the process.

Leighann Lovely 21:05

You know and it's, it's interesting, you say, work environment, because, you know, in today's world, you know, somebody who's interested in computer, somebody who's interested in any, anything that can be done via remote, could be very beneficial for for them, because now they are communicating quite a bit over email over all of the things that you just mentioned, you also have that safe distance of being on a team's zoom call. Have you seen that this is that this could possibly be a good thing for some individuals.

Denise Schamens 21:46

I think there's been articles and studies that have been done on this actually, that show, like, you know, we've been spending so much time saying you must be in an office, and the pandemic happened, and no one could be in an office, and everyone had to do these kinds of things. And these are accommodations that people with disabilities, not just autism have been asking for forever. And so to find out that this is a better way, for a lot of people, not just autistic or disabled people, I think has been very enlightening to everyone who said, Oh, no, we can't make that accommodation, that's unreasonable.

Denise Schamens 22:18

Now, there's so many barriers to being in person in you know, in a workplace for, like, my son's not going to be able to drive so he's not going to be able to drive himself to his job. So you know, when you're looking at before pre pandemic, when we were looking at trying to get him to employment, if it wasn't us, dropping them off, what our options, you know, you've got some taxi services, and Uber and things like that, but then you're paying just as much as they're making in that day, to get them to that job. And that's just not, that's just not gonna sustain itself. Right. And so we so I think the pandemic helped in a lot of ways, you know, for individuals that can't do all or can't participate in person in that way. And now they can participate in a space that is accepting and is safe and is set up for them. So yeah, has a lot to do, I think with the success.

Leighann Lovely 23:15

Yeah. And you know, recently, I would love to hear what your thoughts are on this. Recently, there has been so many, so much more talk of people coming out with a wide variety of disabilities have a wide variety of mental health, a wide, so many people are starting to have these conversations, and I'm hearing more and more people who are talking about the fact that, yes, I'm on the spectrum, and not not just people who are people who are wildly or how do I say this, I'm extremely successful, that you never would have thought, Oh, you're you're running your own chain restaurant, and you're on the spectrum. And again, that sounds I feel like I've just insulted somebody in some way. Because it's not that I don't think that somebody who's on the spectrum is capable, they're 100% capable. There's all different ranges. But it's just it's kind of an eye opener to go, oh, that that's amazing. And now people are starting to talk about it. They're starting to talk about, you know, but we also have a better understanding of you can, being on the spectrum doesn't mean that you have a disability that stops you from being able to function, it just means and what I'm hearing from you is that your brain thinks or works differently than what we as a society has classified as normal. But in reality, what is normal? I mean,

Chelsea Budde 24:55

that's the million dollar question isn't Leighann

Denise Schamens 24:58

Right, its a Dryer setting, I think that's a popular phrase. Just a dryer setting,

Leighann Lovely 25:03

Right? Yes. That's a great one. Yeah, yeah, it's I mean, and I, personally, I've had I went through therapy for years, and I use the topic that I used to walk in and ask my therapist is, is this the way that I'm feeling right now? Is this normal? And you'd go? Well, I don't know. Is it? Is it feel normal to you? And I hate when you say that to me. I don't know. Is that asking you is this a normal feeling? And he goes, I can't answer that for you. You have to figure out if it's normal. And I'm like, right. Okay, let me rephrase. Is this the socially acceptable, normal? And he's like, Well, I don't know, is it and I'm like, Ah, this conversations go nowhere. But it is the reality of the world we're living in now. There, I don't know that we actually have a normal anymore.

Denise Schamens 26:00

I think it's really exciting. I think it's super exciting, that autistics are, are finding their voice and are feeling safe and comfortable enough to disclose that. And I think we couldn't be at a better point. To be rolling into this territory as an organization, I think it's the timing is just perfect.

Leighann Lovely 26:21

It is. And this conversation should have been happening, like so many other conversations that should have been happening. Years and years ago, I know that the first time I ever knew that anything like autism existed was what the movie with Rain Man. I think that was the first time I had ever known, like, Oh, what is? What is this all about? And then, and then that movie went away, you know, didn't go away. But you know, kind of the popularity of that died down and then you never had anybody talk about it again. And it's like, why not?

Chelsea Budde 26:57

You know, but it's, it's important. And I think, you know, Denise is pointing to like the cultural shift that's been happening, right. So just like you said, Leighann, with mental health issues, and everyone being more willing to talk about mental health, health issues, especially over the course of the pandemic, the last couple of years, it's forcing us to realize that everybody has something going on, whether it's with them individually, maybe they're a caretaker or a loved one to someone who's struggling with a mental health issue. And by talking about what, you know, pre pandemic was 15% of the population experiencing now they're saying 60% of the population is experiencing some sort of diagnosable mental health issue. That's a huge percentage. And so for us to not be talking about it doesn't do anyone any favors. And so if we keep changing the culture to one of psychological safety to one where you can bring your authentic self, you don't have to mask, that's something that people on the autism spectrum are talking about how exhausting it is, to pretend to be neurotypical, to try to show up the way that their neuro majority peers want them to show up, it's not going to allow them to do their best work. And so you know, to be able to come into a space and go, Look, I can't wear this uniform, I can't have these lights, I can't have this chair, and I can't have your music. And to be able to explain that and say this is because of my neurology is only going to make it better for everybody. Because, you know, autistic people can't change their brain wiring, and we shouldn't expect them to there should be no part of us, that's asking them to change who they are, to be able to bring their best work.

Leighann Lovely 28:39

Right. And we've been making concessions for other disabilities for for as long as I can remember, you know, if you want to hire, or buildings are required, and have been required to have a wheelchair ramp for as long as I can remember, certain certain buildings, you know, government buildings, they're required to have. It's it's so why have we only been making concessions for that? Why have we only been making concessions for certain things, but not for other things that have existed for just as long? Right? I mean, it's, it's, and I have seen companies go above and beyond for, you know, employees who have come forward and say I have an I am trying to think of I had met a woman and she she told me right off the bat that she had to it's a sense or it's a sensory thing in the way that she hears things and they actually created in her office, she was all enclosed in it was all glass. It was all enclosed, so that the noise wouldn't bother her. You know, companies have made concessions make concessions all the time. But there are certain population of people who are forgotten about

Denise Schamens 29:56

Well in that in that example that you gave, that's awesome. ously a safe place to ask for those accommodations, right? And that's what we're trying to change. We're trying to help them understand that you these are the things that you can do to help make it be a safe place to disclose that, then you can get the information for each individual and what they personally need as an accommodation. And, you know, then the rest you can just handle I mean, that's just that place, obviously, was a safe place to do so.

Leighann Lovely 30:27

Right? Yeah, right. And more and more companies need to realize that you can hire great people, there are great people available for work, and right and how we need good people. Yeah. You know, and as a, as obviously, a recruiter who's doing this all the time I hear company, well, there's no people, well, there are people, but you have to one be willing to train and companies that I don't have time to train, well, you're going to have to make time. Sorry, but you're, if you don't make the time now, you you may not be in business a year from now, because you don't have anybody to run your, your production line, you got to you got to make time, you got to figure out, you know, get your priorities straight here. Make time,

Denise Schamens 31:15

If we're forward facing as, as an employer, with being safe and being accommodating, you're going to retain though, you're gonna retain all your employees, like who would want to leave that if they know that their employer is looking out for them, and isn't gonna hold something over them or, you know, judge them for whatever they're going through, that's like, across the board, you're gonna retain, you're gonna have an amazing team, right? So it's like, it's gonna cross over into all your employees, everyone's gonna benefit from being inclusive and being forward facing with belonging and acceptance,

Leighann Lovely 31:54

Right, and the companies that are investing the money now are going to reap the benefits year after year after year after year. But it's so hard to, you know, go in and pitch the, you need to put the money up. And I understand there are a lot of companies that have been struggling because of the pandemic and, you know, talking to them about, you need to change your culture, you need to hire somebody to help you change the culture, if you can't do it on your own, you know, you need to invest in your company, some companies, they just literally don't have the money, but the companies that are doing it, they're going to reap the reward over the next 1015 20 years, because they're gonna see that they are retaining employees, they are getting employees that want to work for them. They're the employees that are working, are telling their friends that this is a great company, I can be myself. Either way, I don't have to do that exhausting thing of pretending that I am somebody that I'm not. And I have experienced that I'd have to No, put on that face and pretend that I'm somebody that I'm not and going home and being so emotionally exhausted, that there were days that I just couldn't even get myself to go into the office because it is exhausting. And I can't imagine what individuals with autism go through trying to put on that face, trying to be something that they're not.

Chelsea Budde 33:17

Right, it's just I want to I just wanted to circle back for a minute Lian on the training idea. And I think there's something that not a whole lot of employers know about or take advantage of. And the Department of Workforce Development, Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, has a work experience program. And this is usually, you know, youth with disabilities. But these services, if you need DVR services, as long as you qualify as a person with a disability, you're eligible for employment services, and that includes vocational training. And that includes this concept of a work experience. So you can come in as someone who wants to kind of try on a position. So let's say it is in manufacturing, for example, and you are looking for someone to work online. And someone with a disability like autism is willing to try on what manufacturing might be like for them. The employer of record is the persons with a disability. It's the DVR client that they're working with. So that job developer is the one paying that employee's wages while they're learning on the job. So and sometimes that person might be supported by a job coach, that job coach is also covered by DVR funds. And so this could last up to 12 weeks. So, you know, let's say in the case of my son, for example, he started out with a DVR work experience and had a job coach and was kind of learning how to do the job, eight weeks and he was functioning independently. And so, you know, I approached the employer and I said, Hey, this was at this time, this was a summer opportunity. So why don't you hire him for the rest of the summer? And so, you know, they kind of went back and discussed and they're like, why would we just hire him for the rest of the summer, he fits in great here, he knows how to do the job, he's doing it independently, let's just make it an outright hire. And so then, you know, by the time he was 10 weeks into that work experience, he started to go through the same kind of hiring and onboarding process that any other employee would. And then the employer of record at that point when he had completed became the company that he had been with at that point for nearly 12 weeks. So I think that's a something that employers really ought to consider is working with DVR and job developers to find people with disabilities who are looking for jobs, and they need an opportunity to kind of try something on. And so that goes on both sides, right, the the employer is trying on that employee, the prospective employee is trying on that employer to see if it's a good fit.

Leighann Lovely 35:57

And that's awesome. I've connected some companies with with them, myself, and because they were interested in learning more about that, that, you know, program, I will put their information in the show notes. So if anybody is interested in reaching out directly to them, I will make sure that their their informations in the show notes, because they are they're truly it's an amazing program that that is run. So yeah, it's just great. It's an awesome program, that, that individuals have to be able to try out new things and see if it's the right opportunity for them and an amazing opportunity for an employer to, you know, see if they can find qualified individuals who are would would be great at their company. So yeah, Chelsea, thanks for for bringing that up. Because, yeah, it's just, it's, it's an amazing program, both for both parties. So and you brought up you brought up your, your son, so I want to know, how are your How are your children doing?

Denise Schamens 37:05

Um, well, honestly, I, you know, I can add to the job experiences, my son Sam, has had, I think a total of four different work experiences. One was in the food industry, and the two other ones were in manufacturing, so some office work and some line work. And honestly, he like, did great and, and had offers in two of them, two of the four. And so he just recently accepted the fourth offer. And so now he's employed, doing data entry for an environmental engineering company. And he loves it. And I found out that he's been telling people at school, the school that he goes to a vocational school, that he's been sharing that he's really enjoying being there. And you know, what was unique about his work experiences? The the first manufacturing one that he did you know, you he had to go through all the safety protocol, he had to take the safety tests, you know, make sure you don't get run over by a forklift. And, you know, where are you standing and have your steel toed shoes and all that kind of stuff. And he did all that passed with flying colors. And the only issue that they had, they loved him. But they didn't extend an offer because he couldn't work an eight hour shift. So that brought up some some interesting perspectives. When I put my good friend head on, because then I think about maybe, you know, maybe they can't work a full shift right away, maybe we have to do a job share kind of situation, and work them up to that, because honestly, he's never done anything for eight hours straight. You know, so that's something that has to be learned. And it takes some time. So I'm happy to say that now he's working four days a week for three hours. And then we're going to slowly start advancing him and giving him more time. So yeah, that's where he's at. I'm pretty proud of them.

Leighann Lovely 39:09

That's amazing. That's awesome. That's so great. Chelsea, what about you?

Chelsea Budde 39:16

So I have two human beings on the spectrum. My 23 year old has been working at that same place where he started his work experience when he was in high school. And he's really built quite a community there. It was interesting because he, he works in a Furniture Warehouse. And we recently had some furniture delivered by this company. And my husband was chatting with the guys who were setting up the bedroom set and, you know, he said, Yeah, actually, my son works for Steinhafel. Oh really? What's his name? And I got to chatting. Oh, does that guy wear suspenders? Yes, yes. I like that guy. He's quiet but he's a hard worker. I like that guy. So you know, he's really created a community there and his actual I thought his career aspirations were going to be in what he was really good at, which was graphic design. And so he got a Technical Certificate in desktop publishing and digital production. And so I kind of thought he was going to end up doing, you know, perhaps some sort of marketing, printing, you know, T shirts or water bottles or something like that. And, you know, doing that kind of arts and setting up those kinds of machines. And he really looks at his creative time is just his free time, like, this is just a hobby, this is not something that he wants to make a career out of this point. He's very happy working his nine and a half hours a week in the Furniture Warehouse, he likes that he doesn't have to get up early in the morning. He doesn't want to work more than two and a half hours at a time. So I think a lot of us would be like, sounds like a good life. But I You know what, this is where he's at right now. So we'll work up to some other stuff at some point. My youngest is 20 years old. And Noey, identifies as non binary from a gender standpoint. So I'm going to use Noey's preferred pronouns, are they them in there? Noey's a junior right now studying music and animation. So went to an arts college in Chicago. And, you know, at first we were concerned, like, could Noey, we do a full time four year program and advocate for themselves? And, you know, live on campus in the South Loop of Chicago? Like, how is all that going to work out? And, of course, that was we were thinking about those questions before the pandemic started. And then, you know, two thirds into their freshman year, all heck broke loose. But you know, now he's figuring it out. And I think this is such an interesting time, this transition time of life is trying to, you know, figure out can you work while you're a full time student? And what can you do? Can you work 60 hours a week over the summer, like some of your peers do? Are you going to burn out? Are you willing to work a $10 an hour job? Or are you looking for something more? And what is that going to mean for your motivation for your education? So yeah, Noey at a point where they're, you know, looking at a little more than two and a half semesters left of school and trying to figure out what comes after that. Internships? Noey loves the city. So living in Chicago? I don't know. So far, so good.

Leighann Lovely 42:27

So Noey, is on their own in Yeah, Chicago. Wow, that is awesome.

Chelsea Budde 42:34

Yeah, that living in a studio apartment, because what nobody has realized about themselves is they cannot have roommates. So Noey has always been a kind of human that needs to cocoon to recover, mostly from kind of the sensory input and the social emotional toll that interacting with other humans takes during the day. Plus know he has ADHD too. So the executive function part is really hard. So when mom rolls up on noise apartment and sees the what mom describes as disaster, right? I just want to clean it up and get everything back to a space where it looks like they could function. But you know,

Leighann Lovely 43:16

That's a typical college student, though.

Denise Schamens 43:19

My husband's apartment was horrendous when I met

Chelsea Budde 43:21

Yes. Yeah. Really gross. So but but yes, Noey is, is doing it all on their own going to classes on their own submitting their own work. And you know, I couldn't help knowing with anything if I tried. I don't know anything about music or animation. And, you know, the other interesting thing about Noey Is there a synesthesia, which means that they combine senses. And so they sort of understood that a little bit in high school the first time, I realized that that was what was going on with them was they're like, oh, my gosh, you're listening to radio on the way to school. And you're like, mom isn't a song so yellow? And I'm like, I? What do you mean? Isn't this song yellow? Like, it's not called yellow? It's not by a group that has yellow in it. Like, I have no idea what you're talking about mom, the song? Can't you see all the yellow? No, sweetheart. It's a song. But you know, no, he just assumed that everyone could combine senses like that, that they could see music and color, that they could smell words. I mean, I I have no idea. So numbers have personalities. I have no idea what to tell you. But these are all things that go on in his brain. And now think about that, right? Think about your noise professor. Right. And you're trying to teach a zoom class on music, and you're supposed to pay attention to a certain bar of music, and the lyrical overlay. And no, we just had to kind of tap out from a class and be like, Look, I smell what you're doing. I see what you're doing. I taste what's going on. I can't do it. I need a break. And you know, so just turn the camera off muted. Walked away for five minutes paste in their little studio apartment. Breathe. Grab it. cube to reset their brain. They hold the ice cube when they're feeling anxious. And then came back, turn the camera back on. Okay, cool. It's cool. This was too much.

Leighann Lovely 45:10

That is. Oh my gosh, that would be massive overload for my brain. i Wow.

Denise Schamens 45:22

Right? Yeah, it's much. And honestly, I can relate a lot of what Chelsea said about no way because I as a creative, I'm kind of borderline on some of that stuff. Like I can see the numbers as personalities I can I can relate to songs having a color or a feel, you know, obviously, you guys would be like more like a feeling. But you associate emotion with different colors like I can I can relate and be empathetic to some of what she's going through. They're going through. So it's like, it's hard to but I love that, that they're able to talk about that. Right? And because how else do we find the stuff out and until they start feeling safe to talk about it? It's good stuff.

Leighann Lovely 46:09

I didn't even know that that was a thing. But now that you say I suppose now that you say that my husband is my loves music and you know, I when he listens to music, you can see his entire body. Like changes. You can see like him completely relaxed. And I said you hear music different than me. Like you're you entirely like, it consumes him in a way that I could never truly understand. It's just it's truly his passion. And he hears things in it. He'll he'll say, oh, did you? Did you hear that? And I'm like, No, I know, you know, like, no, it's just not my. But I suppose there are certain things you know, my brothers always will ask me, we'll be sitting in the woods, or not in the woods, but like around a campfire, my will hear something in the woods. My brother's like, Oh, what is that noise? And I'm like, Oh, it's a chipmunk. And they're like, and then I looked at him one day, and I said, Why do you always ask me the most obscured questions. And they're like, because you are an encyclopedia of useless information. And I'm like, Yeah, I guess I am. I, that's the way my brain I see something. And I, it's in my, it's in my vault, like I'll never forget, I hear something. And I associate it with the noise of the that the animal makes. And it's, it's forever in my brain. My senses smell is through the rough, saying I can I can smell if an animal is downwind from me. And I can tell you which direction it is. And I can tell you which animal it is. It's it's sometimes it's gross, the things that I can smell. So but I've never heard of mixing or seeing colors, from, you know, from music or mixing those senses that is, in one way. Extremely awesome. And another way. It's got just exhausting. Because yeah, I mean, when you're using all of those senses at the same time, emotionally, just wearing an exhausting, I understand why they would want to be able to cocoon and kind of step away from the world to regenerate.

Denise Schamens 48:28

Yeah. And then of course, like, the marketing mom and me is like, oh my gosh, you have to put this on a resume, like How amazing would it be if you get hired to do a jingle for a company? And you're like, oh, my gosh, yeah, your company name is totally blue. And here's what Blue sounds like. And then they could you know, because they're a composer, they can compose what it sounds like. Now, I mean, synesthesia isn't the same for everyone, right? So Denise could hear a piece of music and say not that's totally pink and noise we like now it's yellow. So it's not to say that synesthetes have the same experience. But I just think, from a generation and a creativity standpoint, how much easier it's going to be for mnoey. To come up with something than for someone who's just sitting back with their neurotypical boring average brain trying to come up with some idea that's fresh and new. Right.

Denise Schamens 49:18

I think it's still I definitely think that's a skill that yeah, can be capitalized on in her career somehow, for sure,

Leighann Lovely 49:26

Absolutely, we all we all have our strengths and our weaknesses. And just because somebody may think that doesn't mean that it's a disability or that you know, being neurodivergent is it's not it's, you can use that utilize that to, to a strength. Now, you may have weaknesses, because of that same thing, but again, you know, I have bipolar disorder, that there are certain things that with bipolar disorder, I've realized that I have strengths because of there are things that you know, and fun, not fun fact fun. I get some most people who are who have bipolar disorder. Part of the reason they go off their medication is because they're wildly creative. A lot of people who I've talked to, I'm really creative, I can paint amazing. I can write, really, really well. But as soon as I go on my medication it dumbs me down. I can't do it anymore. I can't write a campaign. You see this in a lot of different things out there. Something that was you were born with some way that your brain works, often comes with something good. You know, I have to assume that there is a gift somewhere amongst everything else. It's just simply the way that you look at it. Okay, question of the season, because we are coming to time, I'm going to ask both of you to answer this. So I've asked everybody, this, come on this, you know, this this year, this season? If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be? And why? Chelsea? Why don't you go first?

Denise Schamens 51:08

Yeah, well, I'm really just gonna say the same thing that we said at the opening, you know, Denise, coming to me and saying, Do you think it's a good idea to make a movie about autism? For kids without autism? That was it? You know, I, I was at a point where I could have gone back to doing PR writing, I love to write, I really do I enjoy it. And I could have done that for the company that I worked for, before I started my family, certainly, or I could have done it freelance for a number of different PR companies. And it's just it, having two kids with autism made me realize that this was a calling. And I just couldn't figure out where it was coming from or what it was going to look like. So, you know, Denise, approaching me in 2007, with the idea that eventually became good friend was definitely

Leighann Lovely 51:57

Awesome, what about you, Denise?

Denise Schamens 51:59

Well, to not sound redundant, because probably mine but I, I think I it has to go back to the when my son was diagnosed at three. That's 20 years ago, I there was no one that had autism that I knew of, in my family, my husband's family, I had no experience with that. My path was art and fine art and exploring that and then was able to stay home with my kids. So I was gonna get right back into the creative side once they were full time in school. And when my son was diagnosed at three, that was a huge pivotal point for me, because I was like, What is this? What does this mean? Now I've got to figure all of this out. And I have two other kids that need to understand it as well. So for me, it was the diagnosis that three,

Leighann Lovely 52:56

sometimes life brings people together for a reason. And clearly, it brought the two of you together so that you could create good friend ink and spread your amazing educational program and amazing goodwill to the rest of the world. So that you know and what, 56 - 54,000 students if you 56,000 Okay,

Chelsea Budde 53:22

56,000 people, yep. People

Leighann Lovely 53:26

Have now seen your training or been touched by by you one way or another. That is absolutely amazing. So, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. You know, I mentioned this actually in the opener that, you know, I thought of you guys because Alejandra Fraga had mentioned you when I had interviewed her. And I just thought, well, she's talking you up and now I have to make sure that I get you guys to come and talk with me and I just think your mission is is an amazing. Yeah, it's it's amazing. So

Chelsea Budde 54:08

Thank you so much. Thanks, man.

Leighann Lovely 54:10

You. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Website - goodfriendinc.com

Denise Schamens

E-mail - denise@goodfriendinc.com

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/deniseschamens

Chelsea Budde

E-mail - chelsea@goodfriendinc.com

LInkedIn - linkedin.com/in/chelseabudde

Referenced in the Episode -

Wisconsin Independent Learning College - https://wisconsinilc.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

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People need help at all different times, for all different reasons, sometimes knowing who to turn to is all that is needed. People like Ashley, today's guest, is an amazing person and resource for others. Join me!

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:04

I'm extremely excited to have our conversation have my guest on today because I have the honor and privilege of speaking with somebody who has taken instead of an HR path of the normal guests that I speak with instead of being in that corporate world and talking about HR, HR professionals or business owners or coaches. I'm going to be speaking with somebody who's really truly in the thick of it and has the opportunity to help individuals seek assistance if and when that assistance is needed. So I'm going to be talking with Ashley Podzius. This is a Chicago native who made the move to Milwaukee in 2020. She began her education at Marquette University, where she studied broadcasting. She completed her Bachelor's Degree in Psychology with a minor in Fine Arts at Governors State University in University Park, Illinois. Ashley is the outreach representative at Rogers behavior health in Sheboygan. She is also an eating disorder recovery yoga instructor at allI wellness studio in Milwaukee. In her spare time, Ashley enjoys spending time outdoors playing with her three cats and traveling and doing anything that helps her creativity evolve. Ashley, I am so excited to have you here today. Thank you so much for joining me

Ashley Podzius 02:34

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:38

So why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and your role at Rogers Behavioral Health in Sheboygan.

Ashley Podzius 02:44

Yeah, so I will start with my role since that's the easiest to share. Since I've shared it so many times with others. I am the Outreach Representative at Rogers in Sheboygan. So Rogers has been around for over 100 years. We started off in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin is a really small facility and since then expanded actually nationally. So we still remain as the largest nonprofit behavioral health organization in the nation, which is very exciting to share with people. But I represent the Sheboygan clinics. So I am the Outreach representative. So that means I connect with potential referrence who have folks that are looking for a higher level of care. So that can be therapists, psychiatrist, school professionals, probation and parole officers, really anyone who knows someone because everyone knows someone struggling with mental health. And if we're full, or if we have a program that a patient isn't looking for, I help support them and getting help elsewhere.

Leighann Lovely 03:52

Okay, so I have to say, Rogers is an amazing facility. I know my audience is aware that I have struggled with mental health. And I myself am a Rogers Memorial alumni. So they are an amazing, absolute amazing facility. And so it's it's so wonderful to talk to somebody who is is you know, working there and supporting them and to have somebody in the community who you can reach out to if and when you you need those services is just it's amazing because you during this time well during really any time but right now, you know, during a time when the world has been turned upside down, knocked on its head, more people are talking about it and more people are finally reaching out for the help that they need, or know somebody who should be reaching out. It's it's great to have somebody like you who they can call and and get direction and get information on on what they're supposed to do. So thank you for what you do. That's awesome.

Ashley Podzius 04:58

Yes, it's really fun. It's really not even Just refer. And sometimes we have families calling the clinic looking for just general guidance or resources. And maybe it's an age group that we don't get served. So really younger adolescents or children that we don't serve. So I even talked to families all the time, and they just need someone to listen to you. And I think that's one of my favorite parts of the job is just kind of holding space for people who are in a lot of pain.

Leighann Lovely 05:24

And that has to be wearing sometimes. So for you, I mean, emotionally for you, you, you're, you're dealing with a lot of people who are in pain. And how do you deal with that? I mean, is there do you have somebody to talk to?

Ashley Podzius 05:42

I do. So our team is very close. And my supervisor is just so amazing. And really all of the leadership on in the marketing and outreach team within Rogers is just always there to be an ear or an eye for for anyone, not even just folks on the team, but just really anyone within the system that needs somebody to chat with. Um, and I have my own self care practices that I do. And I've also I've been an outreach for quite some time now. So I think I think at the beginning, it was difficult hearing all these stories, and like, I have really good personal boundaries, like with friends and family. But I think with work since I do love my job so much, and it is very flexible. I have not so good of work boundaries. So it's, it's it's hard to kind of unplug at the end of the day. But I do I you know, I walk a lot. I mean, that sounds silly, because I live in Milwaukee. And it's like, it's 20 degrees. I would actually right now my computer says it's 18 degrees. But so after, so that's really not that bad after the heatwave that we had yesterday in the 40, 18 feels really cold. But yeah, I tried to get outside as much as I can. Walking yoga, or any kind of movement that's really healing. And I and I love to read and play video games, and I have cats. So I have a lot of I have a lot of support.

Leighann Lovely 07:10

That's awesome. And you're walking is probably one of the most therapeutic things. That's, that's awesome. And you mentioned Yoga, you are a yoga instructor, So tell me about this.

Ashley Podzius 07:22

Yeah, so I was really lucky. So I started practicing yoga in 2012. And then in 2014, I was in between jobs. So I had a really great opportunity to go to this residential yoga teacher training for a month. And Napa Valley poor me, right? Eating away in California. But that was really great. So I went there. I'm not expecting to ever teach yoga, I just wanted to learn more about myself, and really the history of the practice. And so when I got home, I'm the teacher that I had first practice with, I'm in Chicago, that's where I'm originally from. She was like, Well, I have some teaching opportunities for you. And I was like, I don't really know if I want to do that quite yet. But then I did start and I was teaching probably public classes for about three to four years. And I was like, I am just tired of teaching to a group of people that just want to learn a handstand to post on their Instagram. You know, because I feel like that Well, I feel like it's kind of simmering down right now on Instagram in terms of yoga poses and stuff, people are actually learning the meaning behind yoga and learning the the mental health benefits that come with it. And then I I'm in recovery from an eating disorder. So I had, you know, a therapist in Naperville, which is in the western suburbs of Chicago. The there was a practice down the street that had reached out to me, either on Facebook or LinkedIn, I can't remember, I'm looking for a yoga instructor for mental health. And then I typed in their address. And this practices building was just a few doors down from the therapist that I had been seeing for years. I hadn't seen her anymore at the time. But I was like, Wow, they're so close. And this facility, the place where I saw my therapist gave me so much. So I wonder if they might be looking for someone. So I called my old therapist, and I was like, Hey, this is kind of out of the blue. But this practice down the block wanted me to do yoga at their facility. I was wondering if you know, Maria, who's the owner of the practice, if she might be interested, you know, and doing kind of any yoga for eating disorders. And so she had talked to Maria and I got a call the next day I met with her and she really believed in my mission because I'm not a therapist, by trade. I have, you know, experience with recovery. And I have a yoga background and my, you know, bachelor's is in Psych. So I just, you know, I was like I don't really know if this is gonna work out. I was so nervous to meet her and she was like, yes, absolutely. We would love to have you. So I really enjoyed that one on one connection with People while doing yoga with them, and guiding them through the practice and the philosophy of the practice and all that it gave me, I just kind of wanted to share that with others.

Leighann Lovely 10:10

That's an amazing story, not only through the fact that you have a personal understanding of what others are experiencing, but now that you can take something that you love in yoga, and pass that along, you know, to them on a personal level to help them, you know, heal outside of just, you know, their therapy, and they're, you know, they're, they're counseling, I guess, rather. But that's, that is that's an amazing thing that that you can offer beyond, you know, being, you know, an outreach for Rogers. I mean, that's, that's awesome.

Ashley Podzius 10:55

Yeah, and I don't do so right now, the yoga that I do is through so I live in Milwaukee. I mean, it's, I know Sheboygan is an hour north. But so many people are still remote. So I'm up in Sheboygan a few times a week. And I'm here working from home a lot of the time. So the studio that I work out of is less, or I think it's technically 1.1 miles away, so not far at all. It's called L Wellness studio. So I do their yoga for eating disorders just once a week. So it's the perfect balance. So I have one really long day. Um, but it's good to have that on a Monday because I think Mondays are so hard to get into, but I so look forward to not just you know, my Rogers job, but also the yoga at the end. So I really look forward to Mondays. They're honestly one of my favorite days of the week aside from Sunday, which is also a weird day to love, but I love it.

Leighann Lovely 11:43

You're actually, you're very much like me, I love Mondays. Well, probably because I have a four year old who drives me absolutely crazy. Despite the fact that I love her fiercely and follows me everywhere I go. I can't wait to have a little bit of of self free time on my Monday. I'm sure there's other parents out there going. Yep, no, I got it. I got it. But by the time the day is over, I'm thrilled to go home to her. But I love my Mondays. I also love my job. I love my day job. You know, vaco I love my night job as podcast hosts and getting the privilege and honor of talking to people like you. So and you know, I love Sundays actually, no Saturdays, I like Saturdays. So Saturdays and Mondays, but If only more people in the world could love Mondays, wouldn't it be much happier place in the world? Because that would mean that more people would love their jobs. Right?

Ashley Podzius 12:46

Right. And I always hear of people who I just got the chills saying this. I always hear people saying they have the Sunday scaries. And I am so grateful to say I've never I've never experienced a Sunday scary ever.

Leighann Lovely 12:59

Nope, my I don't I don't even know what that is.

Ashley Podzius 13:02

I think it's just dreading the work week. But I've always so when I first got out of college, I was in direct care for behavioral health. So I worked at a residential center as a direct care counselor working 3pm to 11:30pm. And in the mornings, I worked at this breakfast restaurant, right downtown Chicago, which I loved both very much. I mean, I loved serving so much because I was with all of my friends, I got to socialize the whole time, there was no emotional attachment to anyone's story, it was kind of almost like a break that I was getting paid to do. You know, and like networking with different people. And just hearing all the people that travel to Chicago from other parts of the country and other parts of the world. It was it was so much fun.

Leighann Lovely 13:47

I truly enjoy. You know, my husband says you work too much to me all the time you spend so much time working but and I don't wear it as a badge of honor. I sometimes do work too much. But on the on the other side of that I truly truly enjoy. I love what I do. I love the aspect of networking. i i You know, when I go out network, it's not like I'm actually working. It's more like I'm out socializing with a huge group of people that I love to hang out with, and sit there and talk and chitchat. And you know, so no, if you love what you do, and you you clearly, you know, love what you do, and that's awesome. So, now you have your bachelor's. You mentioned this you have your bachelor's degree in psychology. Were you were you always interested in that area? Or was that something that one day you said you know, this, this is the area that I want to go into and was there something a personal drive to that I you know, and I asked because my brother, my brother actually went to school, you know, for for something well for that. And he one day said to me, you know that he had a home Education in that from from me. And I was like, well, I should feel proud that I drove him to the I don't know how to feel about that. So yeah, going back to my question, you know, was that always an interest of study for you

Ashley Podzius 15:17

I always like this study of people and that my first job in high school was I was a hostess at a restaurant. So I guess restaurants just have a special place in my heart. But my first two years of college, I actually went to Marquette, which I think is why I love Milwaukee so much. And I came back to Milwaukee. But I went to Marquette for broadcasting. So a total switch. And then it was at Marquette that I developed my eating disorder had to go home, once a community college for a little bit, and then I think what a lot of people get out of treatment right away, it's like, I want to save the world, I want to share my story. And I want to be, I want to, I want people to think that they can be better because of my sharing. And I think that I feel like right now it's almost like a, I mean, I'm so glad that people are sharing their stories, but it's almost like I feel like social media kind of pushes people to over share their stories when no one needs to share more than they want to. So when I first got into psych, you know, just studying it in school, I loved it. But then when I got out, and I got my first job, I was like, I don't know if I can do this, this isn't for me. And you hear a lot of those stories to a lot of people too, as well as in substance abuse recovery. They're, you know, recovered or sober, clean and sober for a few months, and they go right away into recovery coaching, and then they end up relapsing because they're not ready to hold that space for others, because that space hasn't been held for them for so long. So I learned that very quickly. And so I was like, I don't want to be a therapist, but I do love, you know, working with this population, but what can I do? That's, you know, kind of a step away. And that's when I found the yoga and then I was still waitressing while I was teaching yoga and doing the yoga therapy, if you will. And then I just kind of fell into the outreach marketing side of behavioral health. And I do miss Miss engaging with patients a lot. But I feel like this is the perfect place for me because I still get human connection, like, all of the days that I work. But it's not the same, you know, it's different. So if I have a tough day, I'm just I'm meeting with people, you know, as people and people that I'm not working with, through Rogers. But it's not like I'm hearing their full story. And it's not like their story that I'm hearing. It's the stories of their patients. So there's a there's more of a disconnect there. But not not a bad disconnect, but a healthy one. Does that make sense?

Leighann Lovely 17:50

Yes. And I was gonna follow up question to that is do you think that there is an inherent risk for somebody who is, you know, possibly in recovery, to immediately go into trying to help other people or? And I'm not saying, you know, I guess for me, it's bipolar. telling my story is one thing. I don't have a wagon to fall off of. I mean, I suppose I could stop taking my medication I could, that comes in different forms shapes. If it's somebody who's maybe recovering from drugs or alcohol or from an eating disorder, do you think that there is a possibility of a risk on talking to somebody who has that same addiction or that same? Whatever it might be? And through talking with them about theirs, that they have a possibility of? backsliding?

Ashley Podzius 18:50

I don't know. So I'm not an expert in how other people recover. And I think everyone recovers a little bit differently. Of course, I think there's a risk on both sides. I mean, that's just my personal opinion. But it's just an opinion. But, um, long story short, yeah, I definitely do think that there is a backsliding possibility because I actually have a few friends. So I have a very small circle of people that I talk to, I always say, I have no friends, I have friends. And there's just I don't have a lot of close friends. And I feel like at the beginning, I would share and share you know about my recovery, like when I was like, kind of fresh out of treatment A few months later, and I was like, Yes, I you know, I think if I don't share that no one's going to feel empowered to get support. And then after sharing, I feel like people were coming to me and it's like, that wasn't my intent. It was like I was sharing so that you all could, you know, do what you need to do not come to me and I think to this day, I have people that that I'm friends with, but not like my close, close friends that share a lot with me and it gets really heavy and I have to really set up boundary there and like I said before, I have really good personal boundaries. And I've learned that over time and poor work boundaries, which I'm fine with, I mean that that does not stress me out but with with other people or people that I'm close to, they'll share all of this with me. And it's like, I right now there's, there's a lot of things happening in my own life to that I also need to like with my family and close people to me, that I don't have the capacity to hold space for people. So I think I'm a big advocate for you know, if you need to kind of let something out like asking someone Hey, can I vent to you first? Or on the other side to when you know, people need safe people to share with and I want to say it was you that posted this on your LinkedIn about giving advice. Only one asked was that you? Yeah, actually, I just that is my my biggest pet peeve. And my best friend will tell you that she's also a nationally that I cannot stand when if I'm trying to share something with somebody like confidentially, you're just kind of letting things out. And someone says, Well, if I were you, I would do this. Well, first of all, you're not me. I'm not you. Everyone has different stories. Some people speak to be heard. And if and a lot, and I ask for support and advice all the time. But if I don't ask, I don't, it hurts me more to compare to compare stories, you know what I mean? Like, they just say, Well, I would do this? Well, we're different. So I wouldn't do that. You know, I think I've just kind of went on a tangent. So I'm sorry,

Leighann Lovely 21:37

No, I love tangents. I go on them too. And, and you are so right. Sometimes people just need exactly what you said to speak, speak to be heard, not to be to be told how the other person feels about what they're saying. They just simply need to say it because sometimes that makes somebody feel better. Sometimes I will sit down. And if I'm so angry at something, and I will write a letter to the person I'm angry at, and then I will rip that letter up, throw it away. And I'm over it. Some I mean, it's just sometimes you just need to get the words out whether that's verbally or on a piece of paper. And the worst thing that you can possibly do to somebody is when they're in that mode, and they're venting is to then turn around and start giving them advice, because then it feels like you're not validating them for how they feel. You're taking away. You're taking that away from them. And I'm guilty of this too. Oh my god, go ask my husband. They'll be like, Oh, she never shuts up. Every time I talk. She's, we're all guilty of that occasionally. So sometimes we do need to lay that down those boundaries of saying, Look, I just need to vent. And my dad will my dad will is famous for asking this. Are you venting? Or are you asking me for advice? I love that. And I'll go I'm venting. Please don't give me advice on this. Because I don't want to be slapped in the face with the reality of what I already know. I just really need to get this out. And that's it's extremely therapeutic. But you're also right in saying that you need to set those personal boundaries. Because we all have personal lives, we all have things going on. And sometimes you can't take on everything that's happening in everybody else's life. You don't have enough emotional space, you don't have enough. And I have one friend of mine that does it all the time. She'll call me and she goes, Oh, I have to do this. And I have to do this. And this is going on with this person in this and I finally said to her, you need to stop. You need to stop holding the weight of everybody else on your shoulders and start just taking care of you. When was the last time you just took care of you? I guess I haven't really thought about it. I'm like, You're You're crumbling under the weight of the world. And the only person who is responsible for that is you. You can't blame anybody else. You have to learn to say no. And there might be some hurt feelings. There might be but sometimes it has to happen for your own health. Whether that be your mental health whether that be, sorry, now I'm on a tangent.

Ashley Podzius 24:36

Okay, I love tangents. Right. That's one of the perks of ADHD. Right? I could just ramble on and on and on. I'm like wait, what?

Leighann Lovely 24:47

What shiny object shiny objects. Squirrel Yeah. Okay, moving on. Moving on. So you know I got out what is the hardest? I mean, what would you say is the hardest thing that you have to do in in your job every day because, well, I couldn't do your job. I really I just there, I don't have the capacity, I wouldn't have the capacity to to do your job because when I compare your job to mine, mine is all sunshine and rainbows. Now I love to talk to people about hope and how we're going to change the world and make it a better place you were talking about let's all tell our stories and try to influence the world which, you know, I love I love that stuff. But the reality of it is that, that's, that's what we all think life is about of go get help come out. And now it's gonna be all sunshine and rainbows, but it's not.

Ashley Podzius 25:55

No, it's not, it's sunshine, storms, snow, rainbows, unicorns, baths. It's everything. So I think the hardest part for me about my job is the time management because well, Rodgers is a non for profit. So the outreach I've done before, we're all for for profit organization. So it was all about filling back. So my mission was just to connect with people to fill the open slots. And each facility that I worked in. Were with Rogers, there's so many other things that we do. So yes, I think the main part of it is connecting people to treatment with Rogers connecting with the referrence the families, and then providing discharge planning, but there's a lot of data entry, there's a lot of follow up. And there's it's just there's a lot of computer things. So I think it's just it's the time management piece to and not forgetting things. And I'm old fashioned in that will my calendar is on Outlook. I used to hate Outlook. So I'm like, why don't people just use Gmail, like, it's 2022. But it's such a outlook and teams lifesaver. But, um, I have to write things down. Like it's a specific to do list outside of my, like normal calendar items. So time management, and I think too, when people know that I work for a facility like this, they are there. People that I haven't talked to in years are calling me like, I have this going on, and I just need to someone to talk to and I'm like, Okay, thank you for sharing three paragraphs, but I'm not that person for you. I can give you resources, but I think it's again, holding that, that boundary and a stiff line, like this is my job. I'm so much more than than that, you know, this is what I do for work. And I you know, I do a lot of other things I think I had mentioned before to like I have a minor in fine art. So I you know, I'm a creator, too. So I'm not just I'm not just Ashley from Rogers. I'm Ashley, who's also an artist who's also a person who's also a lover of, of life and not the outdoors and animals. Like I have so many other things that are a part of me that I feel like people fail to see.

Leighann Lovely 27:55

You know what I? You said that in my head flashed to you know, you walk into a room and you introduce somebody to Oh, Dr. Hurts surgeon and they're like, oh, Doctor, I've got this pain in my chest. That is so typical of, you know, you you meet somebody and you're like, Oh, you do that? Oh, yeah. Can I talk to you? And you're so right. So often people see the, and then this just came into my head. Here's the ADHD thing. You know, you see a financial accountant and you got run the other way. Oh, yeah. Sorry. And I don't have anything against financial accounts. Not at all. It's just, you know, do I want to talk about all my finances and no, that's the horrible, but I have an awesome financial account team that I work with. Anyways. But yeah, that that is you hear oh, you work for and then you know, somebody who has struggling with anxiety, you're and then you're right. They're gonna go, oh, maybe you can help me with this. And they're going to forget everything else that you are. So yeah, I can imagine that. That is that's frustrating that the conversation is probably replayed. Every time you meet somebody new when they find out what you do.

Ashley Podzius 29:18

Isn't another thing too is one of the first thing when you meet someone new. The first question is, so what do you do? And I used to always, you know, share my job because I just assumed that that's what they were wondering which is most likely what they are. So now, I always have a follow up question. I'm like, so what do you mean, what do I do? What do I do for work? Or what do I do like as a person? And I always say that people don't really like that question because they don't really care. They just want to know what you do. And essentially, like, what what your status quo is on the corporate ladder. I remember I was on this boat cruise with my sister in Chicago for her company. And at the time I was serving, and I was I think I had just graduated. And one of her colleagues was like, why don't you just get like a real job? And I swear, and I have the worst, I'm very sweet. But I when I get mad, I get really mad, and my face just totally changes. And I and I said like, well, what so would you just never want to go out to eat ever again. So serving not a real job as you know, a cashier, not a real job, like what is real, everything. Every job is so important. And so many people, I think, talk like that, and it grinds my gears.

Leighann Lovely 30:31

Right? I Oh, my God, I had the same conversation. Actually, what I think it was episode 1 when I was talking to rob Conlon. And we were talking about, I can't remember the content Anyways, my girlfriend had said to me, one day when we were in the car, we were talking and she goes, I can't remember the con, like the whole conversation, but she says, Well, Leanne, I'm just a server. And I said, What Wait, what do you mean, you're just a server, like nobody is any like, is just anything anymore? Like, or was ever, but nobody. I mean, nobody should ever be referred to as just anything. Like, because we, and with the whole pandemic, and everything that happened. We every single job out there. And if you haven't realized that by now you're living under a rock, every single job that exists, is just as essential as the next job in order to make the world completely work properly. We need everybody. Right now we're struggling as an economy because we don't have people. We don't have enough people at a gas station, that gas station has to close their doors on a certain day, or they don't have as they have limited hours. All of a sudden, you can't go to your favorite restaurant because they have to shut down on Mondays and Tuesdays because they can only run limited hours because they don't have enough servers. And people are like, Oh, I can't believe they're closed. They don't have enough people to run it yet. Those are the people that you were referring to is just a server. Right? Make sure that you're tipping them really well, because they're busting their asses right now to get you with your food because they're down to people, or three people that they normally have to run their shifts. I mean, grocery stores for a long time, they their their shelves were bare, because there wasn't enough people working production, there wasn't enough people creating the food that was going to go there or drivers to drive that product there. I mean, not to mention the supply chain issues yet we're having I mean, that has a whole nother nobody is just anything.

Ashley Podzius 32:59

Right? And it's not no one is just their job. People are so much more than that. And I feel like that's another conversation that needs to be which is why I love this podcast. Remember when we met at the Veterans conference, you told me about it. And you shared a little bit about your story to me. And I was like, this is so important. Like people need to know that there's so much more like people aren't just an employee number. And employee ID people are people first. First and foremost, they are people and people have feelings and people are things that come up and that happen. And they have to be treated as such.

Leighann Lovely 33:34

Yeah, absolutely. And that's, you know, people, I've talked to other people, they're like, why is it called H, you know, let's talk HR. And I'm like, well, people forget that. When HR started, it was human resource. It's a resource for humans. But we literally in the name, it's, but we've so soaked for so long. We've forgotten what that was originally supposed to be about. And now HR has become the, and I say this kind of jokingly, but kind of seriously, they've kind of become the enemy. Because now HR is about protecting the company. It's about getting, you know, a lot of other stuff done, it's and now they have the people leaders at companies, and those are the people who, you know, really connect with the employees and things like that. But human resources was about the humans at the company. And so yeah, let's talk HR. But let's humanize that conversation because we are humans and humans. And I've said this before are messy. Our lives are messy. And if there are ways for people to know where to go for help, if their lives become messy, then I want them to To know where to go and get help, and I want those companies to know who they should refer those employees to that, you know, and those companies need to know that they can't just wash or wipe those employees away, because they're people. And I think it's important that we're having conversations around the culture at companies, because they also need to understand that they're not going to keep those employees if they're not treating them like humans. And so, you know, why not start out by one sharing my story? letting everybody know that, hey, I'm human. So, come have this conversation with me. Talk about what makes you human. Talk about what drives you to do what you do. And what better person to have on is somebody who understands it, because, well, you know, you work at a facility who's specifically designed to help people, and better that you're a not for profit, which means that you're not reaching out to people to say, hey, I need to fill this bed to make this company money. You're doing it to truly help people.

Ashley Podzius 36:14

Yeah. And then yeah, we're all are totally all donor funded. And we had a big outreach summit yesterday, too. And my boss's boss, who also kind of she just got promoted to the VP of admissions in business development. And I had worked with her before at a for profit. And, um, you know, Rogers is growing, because we have a lot of people who want to donate to help open these new locations, and, you know, communities that have a need. And we put a pause on that during the pandemic. And she's like, Wait, you're really pausing. Like, I don't know, why would anyone pause, I'm not used to this, what's going on? They're like, well, people need our help. And we can't grow if people are struggling. And you know, they need us here now. And she's like, Oh, so this is what it's like to work at a nonprofit that actually cares about their employees and the people that they serve. It was it was a really warming, eye opening discussion.

Leighann Lovely 37:12

That's awesome. Yeah, no, and it's interesting. I, I worked, I moved to a company Vaco. And I normally don't talk about, you know, specifically the company I work out because this is very separate. I on, I think it was around the holidays, my company sent out an email, to welcome or to wish everybody a happy holiday. Just tell everybody that you know, go shut down. Don't spend a bunch of time working over the holiday season. And then went on to further say, during the time, during the holidays, we know that many can struggle from a variety of different things, if anybody needs any resources, including who to turn to for mental health, and it went down a list. And then they had a huge, like, all these resources of like, I like almost fell off my chair. Now I shouldn't have. Because that should be something that companies just offer as a resource. Like if you need help, here are resources for you. And I'm sure there are a lot of companies out there that now are good about, you know, offering resources. But they want to step farther to remind everybody at the company that yes, the holidays can be hard for some people that remember, we want you to go be with your family shutdown, close your laptop, don't answer your phone. And if you know of anybody, or if you are struggling, here are the links to the resources that this company that you work at offers. And I was stunned. And I'm just like, wow, this is, this is an amazing thing to do to for your employees to make sure that they're taken care of. And every company should be doing that. Even if it's not a paid for service, even if it's, you know, a hey, you know, just to make sure everybody's okay, if you need help. Here's a not for profit organization that could assist you. Here's their website and a phone number that you can call just to remind you that we care about you and you don't at organizations don't have to pay for resources to be available for their employees. It just it makes a difference to know that a company that you work for cares about you. Okay, we're coming to time. So I have the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. Would that be and why?

Ashley Podzius 40:02

I think it would be when I worked at Timberline Knowles the second time so it is a residential treatment center out of Lemont, Illinois, and I met one of my favorite people in the world. Her name is Deborah Cooper. She's a published author out of Flagstaff, Arizona and a copywriter. And she's totally blind. So she's in her 60s has been blind, I think since she was 14. And she's just been the biggest inspiration to me along with my mentor, Dave Cook, who is an ex State Farm agent and mentor there I met him I was waitressing. But these two people on both sides of my career that I both love equally waitressing and outreach, I love them both. I think I can pinpoint those people as my biggest motivators that have helped me keep moving forward. Because there's been so many times where I've doubted myself and thought, is this really where I belong? And especially with for profit organizations, there's a lot of buyouts, and acquisitions, and a lot of massive layoffs. And I've been a part of three of those. So I was like, I don't know, if I could do this anymore. And I talked to both of those people, Dave and Deborah. And they both said, Ashley, this you're, you're good at what you do, cuz I talked to Dave because he knows, like everyone under the sun. And I'm like, Well, what about like pharmaceuticals or something like that. He's like, Ash, you don't want to you don't want to sell prosthetic limbs. I mean, if you do, that's great. But I don't think that that's what you want. Like, just keep doing what you're doing and find a company and stay at it. And don't worry about the money because for profit places offer a lot of money. But they don't last a very long time. They're not really sustainable. So I think hearing those words, they've helped, like me, just keep working even harder and keep doing what I'm doing. Because it's something that I am good at. I am good at building connections. And I couldn't really see myself doing anything else besides the yoga but that's on the side.

Leighann Lovely 42:10

That's, that's amazing. That's, that's wonderful. And thank you for sharing. And it's, you know, I've said this before, and I'm gonna say it again, whenever we need the right person to come into our life, they always find a way to stumble in. And, you know, it just seems every time I asked somebody this question, it always seems to happen at the right time, even when we don't know it's the right time. So well, I Thank you so much for coming on and talking with me today. It's been an awesome conversation. Yeah, you're such an amazing person for doing what you do. And not only as, you know, as an outreach representative, but as a yoga instructor as well. You have a wonderful day. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 42:56

Ashley Podzius

Linkedin – linkedin.com/in/ashleypodzius

Rogers Behavioral Health - 800-767-4411

Website - https://rogersbh.org/screening-request

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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No one likes to be faced with the idea that they are going to have to get a lawyer involved, but sometimes it becomes necessary. Michael and I get real about things still happening in the world of bad business and inappropriate actions.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Leighann Lovely 01:04

I am excited to have a great conversation with Michael Brown. He is an attorney who spends his time working with employees for employees' rights, contracts, and severance rights, as well as shareholders. This should prove to be an interesting conversation. So please join me. Michael Brown is the founding attorney of DVG Law Partners. Michael's legal practice focuses on employee rights, contract and severance rights and shareholder rights. He helps clients with negotiations, and when necessary litigation. Michael has been recognized as a rising star in this Super Lawyers publication, and has a superb rating from Avvo. With Michael's assistance, many clients have achieved highly successful legal and financial outcomes. Michael likes to spend his free time with his wife and three children. Together they enjoy travel, recreation, great Mexican food at certain favorite places and chasing their dog, whose name is Justice. Welcome, Michael. I am so excited to have you here today with me to you know, talk with me.

Michael Brown 02:24

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:26

So why don't we start off with you know, why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself and and the law that you practice? You know, what area that that you're in? Sure.

Michael Brown 02:37

Well, currently my law firm, which is a solo practice, I work with other attorneys often from other law firms and so on. But my my current legal practice mostly involves employee rights, or shareholder type rights. Most of my clients are individuals, you know, who are in the employment or the business context, then they had us stronger, wealthier opponent, however, you want to look at it do something, whether it was terminate their job, and from a seventh arrangement, or in the case of like a minority shareholder, there could be a group of majority shareholders who kind of gang up on the minority shareholder because they have more voting shares. And then sometimes that person's an employee as well, certainly employment law issues, as well as business or contract law issues and so on. But generally, I represent individuals for the most part who had any disputes, you know, whether it's in court, which I do a lot of court work and work in different legal forums, you know, like EEOC or Equal Rights Division, like agencies that enforce certain types of employment laws. But I do work in litigation, those different forums. And then I also do work in negotiations to try to help parties reach a settlement. And that that sometimes, I mean, a lot of times that occurs without litigation or before any litigation is necessary. But then cases in litigation are usually settled on average, if they don't lose, and then a lot of cases, the opponent tries to win the case, and they fail, and then they're open a settlement layer point, and so on. But yeah, that's most of the work I do is for individuals and disputes for those types. I also represent small businesses sometimes with like, a breach of contract issues, or, you know, the common denominators. Usually, my case is usually a larger opponent, you know, if I'm representing a company, it's usually against the larger company or organization. And my client is usually the plaintiff or the one you know, that had a financial loss or had something they allege was wrong, you know, like a job termination that was unlawful or whatever it is a breach contract by the other side. They had something that happened to him that they allege is legally wrong, and I agree with them, and that they lost money, usually a significant amount of money, case of job loss, obviously lose your income. And so a lot of the employment law, you know, recovery or potential awards or relief from the legal process involved paying someone for what they lost and lost income, you know, as a result of being improperly fired. But then on the business context, you know, it could be recovery of money related to profits or, you know, represent shareholders that were deprived of like dividends and employees who, like, had a big sale or sales person. And then the employer says, Oh, well, now that you made that sale, we don't want to pay you according to your commission formula, and you're fired, by the way, you know, like, that actually happens. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 05:31

Wow, know that? I mean, is that happen frequently? Or is that kind of like a random every once in five year? I can't, I'm a sales person.

Michael Brown 05:47

I mean, it's hard for me to say if it's frequent, because I, you know, I only get the people calm either had something bad happen to the whole industry, but I'll definitely say it's not uncommon. And if there's a financial motivation for an employer save a lot of money, right. And then also, if they don't like the worker, or if there's an issue of discrimination there, they have a problem, workers age or race or whatever, like, there are a lot of different types of conflicts. And so some are more common than other others in my world. But yeah, it's it's it's not uncommon for the I mean, a lot of people shorted wages a lot of different ways. The kind of situation where if a sales not like a one salesman client that earn is a 1%, commission on revenue $100 million sale. So you're like over a million dollars he earned, you know, a guardians commission formula, Yorker, this employer for over like 15 years. But at the point he did that the employer is like, whoa, million dollars, a lot of money. And they tried to press him to take far less, which he refused. And then they fired him. And he wound up having to retain me after he tried with a business lawyer for a while to work things out and couldn't, and so on and so forth. But I mean, there's there are all these disputes, that kind of morphed out of human drama, and a lot of human drama. Someone does want to pay someone something else.

Leighann Lovely 07:08

And you would think that you know, the business, look at how much money the business is making. I mean, come on, pay your employee, what they're what they, but you're right. And, you know, it saddens me that you know, one, I'm sure you love what you do. Obviously, you wouldn't do what you do if you didn't love what you do. But you also are seeing, I guess, kind of the thieves of the world you're seeing the the negative side of society, you're seeing where people are coming to you because they're like, Yeah, I've been wronged in some way. Or allegedly, do I need to write? That's fine. I mean, yeah, they they're, they're coming to you, because you're so you're, you're really seeing the world from I guess, Hey, I've been wronged helped me write this situation, which is, I suppose the great side of your job is you get to help people. Right, what has been wrong, but you're also seeing really that side of the society, which is there are businesses or there are people or there are whatever it might be that do try to get away with this kind of stuff. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, that's, that's kind of I'm sure the downturn, the upside of your job is that I'm when you have your great successes, and you're like, Yep, I made this right for this person, and they walk away extremely grateful to you for being able to write that.

Michael Brown 08:40

Yeah, that's, that's all true. Yeah. You know, kind of a related thing that I enjoy with my legal practices, because I'm, you know, I have my own business. I'm my own boss, and I work for law firms, as well as some large companies like along the way of my legal career, but well, you know, the main reason I started my own firm had more to do with just practice expense and stuff, like I worked with really nice, good group of lawyers, I still work case with from time to time and really like them as people and lawyers, and so on. But the, like, it was just more much more cost effective for me because I didn't need a lot of things that certain other lawyers need need truly for their practice area and splitting those costs. And so as someone that can, like choose my own clients, I'm not forced to represent a corporation or forced by a law firm to work for this long term business client they have that I personally don't like or think is wrong, or like, I'm fortunate that I can choose my clients and only work for people who I believe are right, you know, legally and factually. Although that's 100%. You know, there are always times or evidence comes up surprise me on it wasn't right about that or so. But, you know, generally speaking if I think someone's credible after initially talking over their situation, reviewing their documents, and so on, usually at the end of the representation, there's no change in that, you know, like, you know, I try to represent people I think are credible, and all that. But what what? So while I'm mindful, like ways that I think workers, or you know, business people, so are legitimately hurt by the practices of large corporations or government employers on like large organizations, and I'm really attuned to, and I'll admit, I'm biased against large corporations and so on, because of all the experiences I have, whatever a big part of being a lawyer is, you're there for this whole process. And you're also dealing with opposing parties all the time. So you come to realize that there are people too, you know, just because people do bad things, Acts, you know, fire someone right in the middle of a surgery leave or something that is like, wow, that lacks compassion, like, you really want to cut this person off the income, and they work for yourself, like, these things that like, I really want to be judged, you know, and that's my job requires me to judge, predict what a real judge would say, and litigate all that. But even with all that said, when I truly believe the evidence shows the other side was wrong, and so on. In dealing with them, you recognize plenty of good things, plenty of things they do, right, you know how other people with good and bad things they've done in the full scope. But yeah, when you're in my practice area, and if you, if you talk to attorneys that work in individual rights, they're probably going to focus more on like how people get disadvantaged, you know, by the large companies and corporations and a lot of factors involved with that. And also, as a lawyer on that side of the fence, so to speak for the little guy, you, you find yourself talking about that stuff, in part, because of there's a lot of misinformation out there. From the corporate side, there's all this, it what it does is propaganda, but they call it public relations. So there's these, there's a multi billion dollar industry of these think tanks and media conduits they have, and so on that intentionally perpetuate these motions, like people looking to bring lawsuits or looking to win the lottery. And they're overwhelming the courts with frivolous lawsuits, and so on and so forth. And lawyers and individual rights practice are just like, No, that's not how the world is operated. And even think in terms of common sense. Like, lawyers don't take frivolous cases, because they're going to a lot of us are paid most of our income on contingency basis where we only paid if a case settles, which means there's merit to it, you know, if anything significant is paid, or if it wins, so we don't want to take frivolous cases or bring them to court. So as a result, there aren't a lot of at least in the courts. But when I try to be objective, I look from the employer or company standpoint, there are certain types of legal processes, like discrimination complaints, for example, where it's very easy for a worker who's wronged to or who truly believes they're wrong, for good reason, you know, they got fired, and that that hurts that big consequence. And then they like, call me and point out two things, I think, yeah, those are legitimately wrong things, and you can prove them and so on. But it's only a certain subset of wrong things are actually discriminatory. So people that were wronged in some way, filed the wrong type of complaint, where maybe a different legal complaints more appropriate, or no legal complaint could, you know, fix the situation like there's no law violated just the wrong thing. And common common sense sort of wrong or, right. But anyway, like that, those types of complaints where people can find on their own, I can sympathize with employers, in some cases, because a lot of those people, if they talked to me, I would have said, this isn't a good case for a discrimination complaint for one reason or another. So I don't know, I don't wanna say there's like, no big like, if, or if there's a small business employer, and they happen to fire like, one worker ever, and it was a bad employee. And it turns out that one worker filed a discrimination case of Honda, lasting three years and costing the employer you know, $36,000, in corporate defense, legal fees, I couldn't sit, you know, who might say they're wrong or whatever, without looking at that, or that their belief sets, you know, don't make sense. But as far as like the public systemic information about the state of Legal Affairs and the law system, it's a complete whitewash, from my perspective, like corporations and large organizations dominate, they have more money, they have more access to lawyer, they have more help and they played the game, they fight. Fire 1000s of people so they, they know how to document things. If they have an unlawful motive, they know how to hide it. They play games with withholding documents and information and the legal process discovery as it's called, you know, so there's, there's all sorts of systemic things. I'm very confident saying a lot of large companies do wrong. But I tried to unload everyone, I talked to you about that stuff, right. Like, just solve their problem.

Leighann Lovely 14:46

And there cases, and you know, you read about these there are there are a lot of cases where you have it's the human factor there. There are certain situations where you have somebody who is under threat in their position and they don't know any better, they make a mistake. They just don't know any better. You see this a lot in undertrained recruiters, when they are asking questions they shouldn't be asking when it during like a hiring process. You know, I hear about this all the time they ask simple questions like, will do have children, because they are trying to get to know somebody, well, you can't during an interview you, you can't ask them. You know, and I, again, somebody could turn around and go, Whoa, they didn't hire me. But you know, during the interview process, they did ask me, if I had children, they discriminated against me, because they didn't hire me, they found out that I have kids. And that's the reason that they didn't hire it. Sometimes it's about the person not being educated enough and making a mistake in a certain simple thing. Other times, it is a blatant, like, we're going to do this, we're going to cover it up, we're gonna, you know, some of the small companies out there, they're not educated enough, and they they make the mistake of, we're going to terminate this person. And sometimes the person firing them has no idea that somebody else in the company is aware that this person may have disclosed something about their background that would make them a protected class. And all of a sudden, that person goes well, I I just disclosed this information about myself. And now they're firing me. Wait a second that they just discriminated against? There's so many things and and again, yeah, you're you're on that side of weeding through Is this a frivolous case? Is there merit to this, and but you're right, the large the huge companies out there, who have been at it for ever, and know exactly what to do, how to do it properly, how to not put something in an employee file, because they know if they do that's going to, and again, I've been in the HR, you know, I've been in HR one way or another for over 17 years, I was taught early on, here's what you don't document, here's what you do not write down, here's what you do write down. And it's like, wow, these are, these are blatant things that the company is explaining, Hey, you can't put this in the file. Because if we ever get sued, that's gonna be a problem. And it's like, you're covering your butt from the very beginning, just in case this employer ever comes after you for anything?

Michael Brown 17:39

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's all true. Although, I guess what I would say to on that point of not documenting things, like you're absolutely right. And I think the best way, like, if you're in, like, if you're working in HR, and you're in that specific context, you know, the work that we're talking about, you know, what they're telling you not to document, you can more readily tell, you know, if it's kind of a devious thing, versus what I'm about to talk about, but sometimes I'll just see, like, sometimes I give clients advice, not to document things, but not, but it's like, I'll say, Don't email anybody other than me about your legal case. But it's not because Oh, you're going to tell lies, and, but it's more that anything you email the other the opposing party can get. So it makes life a lot simpler, you know, if you just don't email anything that you don't need to write, or, and, and a lot of times just people want to vent to people that it doesn't really help them. And all it does is create risk, you know, through gossip them, get back to the lawyer or whatever. But yeah, you're right. Like, there, there are definitely tried and true methods, you know, that employers use, you know, like, administration wise in house and then also in the legal system, just common games, during depositions, common games, that opposing company, lawyers play, and so on. And those things are systemic, and they come up over and over and over again, from my standpoint. And, you know, it's, it's frustrating if I let it be, but, but you know, you just have to deal with it. Try to respond. The best he can

Leighann Lovely 19:12

Right, and it's also it is it truly comes down to two, you know, we are living in a technology world, anything. Absolutely anything that you put on your computer you put can be found. Once it hits the web, it exists, and it can't go away. I mean, it's just it's a simple fact. So if you want to say something, you want to just go vent and get something off your chest, don't email it. Right, have a have a face to face conversation with somebody. And trust me there are plenty of times where I'm like, I need to go invent I sit down. My dad is my go to person. My husband is my go to person, you know, and that's okay, I got it off my chest. I've said everything I need to say I'm over it, but I sure as hell I'm not gonna email along. Hey, I need to get this off my chest because God forbid I say something that in 10 years haunts me. And they're like, did you know that she?

Michael Brown 20:12

Yeah. Yeah. Is there interesting issues for sure. It reminded me when I was in law school, which is 20 years ago that I had a criminal law professor, like, I went to Madison, and it's a so called progressive or liberal environment, they call like, an independent politically, I don't think what they call liberal back then is, and they call liberal right now, or remotely the same thing, like, but But um, but anyway, like, Madison's what people would call like, a democratic, you know, pro individual in their mind, you know, institution that teaches, you know, quote, unquote, liberal and progressive values to help people and which, I argue is probably not the case on the whole nowadays, but But anyway, that's the reputation so on. And at the time, I went to school as much more that way than now. And the law professor I had, however, despite this liberal background, he went to Madison also on his his job, like his main job in the in the private sector was he was the head of Wisconsin's prison system, which is kind of the most institutional job you can imagine, you know, so as to the progressive stuff. But he said something I thought was super interesting to the class as class huge lectures, college students, including meanings he said, How many of us have committed felonies, and we all kind of thought we're living on, you know, a minute or whatever. But he said, all of us. And I was like, whoa. But then I gave a thought. And I was like, well, there's so many felonies and so many laws, I haven't thought like, the felony. Like, if you're 16 years old, you knock over a mailbox, which I've done to migrate and bears, you know, but like, but if you really give it a thought, and so on, like we all have done wrong and violate some law and other but this point was made greater by like mentioning the word felony. But So while most of us haven't, you know, committed murder, kidnapped, or done some of the so called horrible things that popped to mind first, with felonies right, you give it further thoughts, like, we all have some degree of guilt. And so like having that humility, at least in the back of your mind throughout any type of conflict, definitely how

Leighann Lovely 22:17

It's so interesting that you say that because I was I was actually at a networking event. And there was the the presenter was an attorney. And on the criminal side, and she stands up, and she started presenting, and the first thing that she says is, how many of you in this room have an OWI or DUI, and you go, and of course, nobody in the room raised their hand, like you're sitting in a room of professionals in your life. And she goes, you're sitting at a table, and these are tables of force? She goes, you're sitting at a table with somebody who does? And we're all like, really, we are like, Well, nobody's going to admit it. Now, how many people in this room have driven drunk? And we're just like, well, holy shit, probably everybody. Now, if you consider what the legal limit for drunk is, I mean, it's like, it's very low. Now. Did I know at the time that I was intoxicated, when I drove? Do I did I know that my, my alcohol levels would have if I would have blown that they would have been right at that threshold? I don't know. Should I have been driving? No, I absolutely. Um, this is not about, you know, gee, you can have a couple beers. I'm not. That's absolutely. I'm not advocating. But the point being, is that the same, it's the same premice is that, you know, you, you have to really realize what, you know, you can't sit there and point a finger at somebody and go, Oh, how dare you break the law. I mean, it's a reality that each and every one of us at one point in our lives have broken the law, especially living in the state of Wisconsin, where in college, majority of the college students, not everybody partook in some type of excessive of drinking, or, you know, we've all walked into a store, stolen a pack of gum, or whatever it might be somebody at some you've broken the law. Right? You use the felony example. But you know, you're sitting in a network, nobody is going to admit it openly. But yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's just it's, and so we need to stop pointing our fingers at people and go, Yeah, we are only human. And we make human mistakes. Which note so this leads me into my next question. So, you know, this is obviously a very interesting it's a very for me, I'm a geek, I'm an HR geek, you know, employee, right, geek. I'm all here to talk. How did you determine and choose the area of law that you decided to go into and I can imagine or maybe not, maybe it's just new tricks, you know, old dog new tricks kind of thing. Well, that It doesn't make sense anyways, you know, how did you choose the area of law? And has it changed over the last 510 years with the way that companies have treated employees? The the different things that people come to you for and need?

Michael Brown 25:18

Yeah, remind me of that second question, what thing? Because the first ones probably might take, like, a little bit longer to answer but like, because I as far as choosing my area lot, I feel like I didn't entirely choose it because it was like, a response of things. Like I saw job opening. And it was for employment law firm. I didn't know anything about her ever think really practicing employment law or employee rights.

Leighann Lovely 25:45

So it found you. Well, yeah, kinda,

Michael Brown 25:49

I mean, I had interest in it to apply. And I thought, Oh, this could be interesting. But like it early, my legal career, I actually started out law school doing privacy law stuff is right at the time that this HIPAA law was going into effect. So there's all sorts of compliance work that needs to be done, and so on. So I law clerk for the UW Hospital. And I my first legal job was working for a affiliate of the UW Hospital, clinical affiliate entity, and they want a merging with another affiliate. So I lost my job. Some other people that too, as part of that, I want to the corporation that that time called cobalt, which Blue Cross Blue Shield and, and, but But anyway, like that corporation, I got laid off as well after several years, and then they had a merger. And then so you know, me and other people were looking for work at that time, too. And then looking at the jobs I, you know, I can say I guess I picked employment law because I had offer like I had an offer to work for another corporation when kind of comparable. And then there are other types of law firms, a couple other law firms right offers in different practice areas, including I'll tell really quick story like criminal law, tort law, because it goes back to what you're mentioning, but on criminal lawyer interviewed with us, interesting guy to talk to. And he's he said, he said, Yeah, people always approached me and say, like, at cocktail parties, and they say, how can you represent guilty people? Or at least some of your clients, you know, are guilty? How can you do that? And then he goes, those same people line of commie later because they need me to represent them or their family member? Yeah. So it's like, it kind of goes back to your point, like, everyone has something guilty for, you know, at some point, whether or not you're caught or whatever, but a big part of is just owning up to it, and that in the art and consequential, you know, the penalties and so on. But also, it's I think the bigger relevance of that as the humility standpoint of our culture is does not promote humility, whatsoever. It's all about political infighting. I'm right, you're wrong, you fail, you know, Let's roast this person laugh. So. So it's like, all this stuff is geared towards this one loss mentality and not towards introspection, in my opinion, you know, or like, looking at one's own faults, or humility or forgiveness are a bunch of like not to get into my religion stuff. On my view, I'm a Christian, in my view of that is like, internal stuff yet, even in the Christian institutions, like, it seems like there's too much external force, if you judge, you judge, you're the center. And it's like, well, that's not what I get out of out of this. But still, I fall victim to kind of say, in outside of the religious kind of any context, like culturally, these lodges, I feel like promoting busting others and not introspecting not forgiving that being humble. And, and I think that really matters. Because if that attitude is kind of set in those bad ways, it's sabotage everything for everybody. But all that stuff aside, when I applied for the jobs, you know, I went, I want to take a job, this employment law firm, because I thought it might be interesting. And that law, they're good and bad things like about that law firm environment in a small business environment. And, and then I just want to work in a couple law firms and Waukee employee rights and like, I really liked the practice area, it's in terms of like, interest level, it's never boring, you know, it's always human karma, you know, so it's like it, you know, I'm not someone that watches soap operas, but it's still it's like, if something is, you know, sensationalistic or human drama, it's just like, human nature. It's more interesting than like reading some dried, you know, legalese thing, or, you know, and then just doing it purely on emotional exercise or puzzle solving sort of thing, you know, so it's engaging, and I believe, you know, on the client side representative, for the most part, even when I worked for firms where they might have certain clients I wouldn't have chosen or whatever. So generally, I identified like I felt the clients from the right and so that mattered, you know, like doing something I believe the person is actually right and enjoying the work and finding interesting and not getting bored so on something that was all good. I pretty much stuck with that and and and move on and in like years of that arc, because I don't look to change areas of law so much at certain times, I look to, you know, to change a law firm environment to like, I move back to the Fox Valley, because my has worked in Waukee for a number of years, Madison before that, but moved back home to Fox Valley area where my parents are, still are and my wife has a family that wound up congregating here as well. So just with our kids, very young, first child at very young age, you know, we moved back here mainly for those reasons. But also the employment law allows you flexibility, so I could practice representing clients still from Milwaukee or anywhere in the state, in fact, in other states under federal law, so I, I want to get involved in like, cases, you know, the federal court in California or Washington, DC, you know, labor thing, you know, where there's a Washington DC based administrative judge who's presiding over the matter, lineup traveling here and there for representing clients. But most legal work actually is remote, you know, just on your computer and phone and occasionally go to a lot of times record, you can hear by phone or video, you know, rather than having to travel as well. So,

Leighann Lovely 31:09

So employment law, you can actually practice is that nationally, I mean, each state is that what I'm understanding?

Michael Brown 31:21

Yeah, so there's the federal law that applies nationaly, you know, and so there's federal discrimination law, for example, is a big area. And so like, if, if an employee is fired because of a disability issue related to disability, because it doesn't matter? Yeah, Americans with Disability Act like that. So then that person, even if they're another state, I can represent them. And in fact, that more often than not, I can usually represent someone if they want me to, you know, that's inquiry from a different state. It's usually, but yeah, it can get if an issue is primarily state law, that contract law is a good example. Like if, if a doctor you know, has a kind of employment contract with the hospital, and that one of the parties alleges that contract was breached, because the doctor gets fire or whatever Doctor pay or something and they say, the doctor says a contracts breach, usually a straight contract. Issue, like that is usually a state law issue. And in fact, the contracts often say on the state laws of Wisconsin apply, and a lawsuit must be brought in Wisconsin state court or so. But even by default, like that's the case for certain issues that their state law specific. Okay, so now kind of matters to subject matter whether attorney can step out of state to represent or not

Leighann Lovely 32:41

Interesting. So it has Have things changed, you know, with, because, obviously, you know, we talked a little bit about employers have gotten smarter in the way that they do things, but have things changed with, especially now with a lot more employers or additions, employers employees being more open over the last year with their mental health, with more employees coming out and talking about, you know, their addiction, or so, has that had an impact people coming to you with the discrimination? Or? I mean, has that changed over the last 510 years?

Michael Brown 33:25

You know, it's a really good question. It's kind of hard for me to answer because there's, there have been so many things that I, I think have been going on, since I felt like I first started employee rights practice in 2004, sort of over that, you know, over 15 years. And in that time, there have been a number of things that I see as constants that are problematic from like the corporate standpoint and government standpoint. And also, like legal systems standpoint, like deficiencies and, like, personnel of the federal government, for example, it's just some of these agencies, it's just a joke. I mean, it's just like, you'd be amazed as a non lawyer, like, if you first think, honor, like, certain department of labor, personnel, you're like, Oh, my God, this person refuses to give me their name on the phone, and their government is in charge of investigating this case. And they tell me, they won't tell me their name. And they're supposed to issue a decision on this legal decision in writing. And they left it out, they claim they made the decision but left a voice message on my clients phone two years ago, like it's just like really mind blowing stuff for like, what you think is the law and what's supposed to happen is very different from the situation you actually deal with, with the government, employees and so on. But there's also just a huge problem like overload of cases on investigators desk and just insufficient resources and personnel allocated, and that's still going on. Since I started employment, you know, like, I'm sure before but but it's gotten worse, you know, far worse and I and that's part of it. One of the factors, many factors that drove me to political independence. But like at the time, back in the day, I was a Democrat. And I thought like democratic appointees like Obama's appointees and stuff would fix that situation or better. But over time, like their appointees were less and less individual rights are progressive oriented to amateur athletes is progressive or democratic, just like, but you know, do they care? Do they have a beating heart about individual rights? Like, will they ever decide to quit? Would they ever decide a case to employees favoring or like feeling employees wrong? And you actually have some judges and stuff, not the majority. But you have some, like Alito, for the Supreme Court, like he has made a thing during his confirmation process that he had never decided discrimination, summary judgment motion, in favor of the employees like, and those are pretty common motions in federal court. So like, my guess is he might have had hundreds of those types of options and always decided in favor of the employer. And he gave on that he gave some explanation like, Well, the good case is usually settled before they get to that point. And while that's true, like in part, it definitely is true at some of those cases. But there are all sorts of very strong employee rights cases that go to summary judgment stage, where the employer is not offered a dime of settlement. And in fact, some of them are aggressively like, bad mouthing us. So it's like, the strength of a case is not the employer never sees the case against them as strong. So it's like, Alito, his explanation does not explain that circumstance, you know, so Right. So as a like, as an app, politically act interested person, I've had worse and worse disappointment, seeing what the Democratic Party in particular has devolved or backtrack to like, in just everything's getting more and more corporate, you know, on the Republican appointees, in my mind report, pro corporate too. So it's heavy against the work, you know, you have judges that they're there, in the case of state judges, fifth campaign funds paid by large industries, or like companies or industry groups. And that's, that's a legitimate potential conflict of interest, at least, I'd like to take Pfizer in that situation, as a judge, I would be, say, look, I gotta be honest with myself, like, I'll feel indebted as a good human being to this company that gave me a lot of money, just as a matter of parent, like, I still remember someone like, let me 20 bucks five years ago, and I forgot to pay him back, you know. So it's like, it's a good thing, in some ways, like want to repay. But I think it's just a bad dynamic for that whole system. Right? Dominant.

Leighann Lovely 37:40

So it's, it's interesting, because it seems that it doesn't matter. It's political driven either way, is what I'm hearing is that, even though we as a society are continuing to accept people more, and we now have more protected classes, employers are now becoming aware and offering all of these different resources for, you know, employees and everything, it doesn't seem to matter, because it seems that these issues are still politically driven on decisions, regardless of acceptance within the workplace, and it really comes down to the employer.

Michael Brown 38:21

Um, yeah, I agree with most of what you said, I think, like individual court decisions, I guess, I don't usually observe to be like political per se. But But I do think that the whole, like, there are these orientations or mindsets or ideologies, we have. And I mean, I can speak to like, my own side, you know, like, starting out on plaintiff's employment practice, I was very involved with Democratic stuff, go to fundraisers contribute, you know, donations and stuff as an individual, you know, but like I would, I would, I would do that and try to get Democrats elected and, and so on to judge position, you know, and so I'm thinking, like, yeah, this judge is going to be more likely to give individually, I didn't think they'd be biased in favor of individuals more like this judge could is not is not necessarily going to side with a big company, just because they're, you know, that the logo and the name recognition or like, they'll actually consider the individual side and stuff without any sort of bias. Like that's how I like looked at it. People on the business side might look at it not how you play, the players just want judges that are gonna decide cases and favorite individual. No, I can't, that's irrational or whatever. But, but anyway, we all try to look at it our own way, what political person we support. But I think really reality is that over time, the legal system has done more and more like all systems, right? Governments and so on have been more and more corporations do better and better, the largest corporations do better and better whereas the small businesses do worse and worse. And so I don't want to lump the small businesses in like this bad behavior, I'm talking about this. Now, my view, it's usually the smaller an organization is you have more accountability, you have less leverage and wealth, you know, the hold over people, workers, even if they're even still unfair, and they don't have enough leverage is held more than in the large corporate setting so as to see like less problems like, or impactful, like society problems coming from small business isn't stuff. But what gets kind of weird like that when I'm in these networking contexts or whatever, sometimes, small business owners will look at me like, well, you're just looking to sue us or whatever, that's right. No, no, I, I know, I look like the skunk in the room, because I'm the employee rights guy. But like, a lot of what I think is most problematic in the world really starts with the ultra rich, and the politicians my view that they control and the systems of governance that they more than us everyday people influence, you know, and, and so that's in my mind, that's kind of like the problems really start up there. If you look back and been, you know, and then filter down to those that kind of, can't afford those same like, kind of readings of the system or gerrymandering, gerrymandering of the political district or whatever right? tricks they can afford to do.

Leighann Lovely 41:15

Yeah. So do you think that and, you know, my next question is, I think that it's kind of become a little bit less relevant because of, you know, where this conversation has, you know, kind of gone, but do you think, a society, we have definitely become more inclusive, and we've become more open to, you know, a wide variety of things. And so speaking from the employee rights side, do you think that employers will will try to be better? Do you think that there will be an emphasis on training and on understanding of employees rights more now, because of what has happened and transpired over the last, it's been more than a year, I was gonna say, in the last year, it's now been, you know, a year and a half, almost two years? Do you think that that employers are going to try to be better and do better, especially some of these larger employers? Or do you think that they're going to just continue down the same path of let's just continue to do the cover ups pay the expense too, because we've definitely shined a light on the fact that there are a lot of issues within our society that people need more from their employers, and they expect more from their employers, and they have the ability to leave, if they want to. And employers are now under the gun. So do you think that that employers will invest more in being better for their employees? And that you'll see, I guess, less employee claims against employers because they need to be better?

Michael Brown 42:50

That's a good question. And it's, I guess, it'd be hard for me to answer like, the one thing that's pretty new to me, and probably all of us is just the change in a number of employers having a shortage of workers COVID phenomenon. And that the fact you know, that that has been like a significant effect. I don't know, though, how that falls on. Like, in my mind, it falls more on the smaller employers having shown this in the larger ones, but I don't know that you know, like,

Leighann Lovely 43:23

It does. I mean, a lot of the smaller, the smaller employers, the employers are struggling more because they can't afford to pay as much as the larger employers, but the larger employers are struggling, just, you know, they're struggling the same. It's across the board. It is, Vince, you gave an example, one of the star salespeople sells a, I can't remember what that number was, but it was a huge sale, and they were gonna make a million dollar in commission, and they, you know, let's just let the employee go versus paying that. Well, in today's society, you may not be able to replace that, that employee, you may not be able to replace a star sales person because they just don't exist right now. And other you know, companies out there are willing to offer small employers not going to be able to pay a million dollar commission, but there the trade off is they're willing to do whatever they can to make that employer happy, that employee happy. So yeah, even the large corporations are under the gun to do better be better. And I just wonder if that if, and I guess I'm not asking you to foretell the future. But it's an interesting thought to think that employers need to clean up their act. And that doesn't just mean Hey, pay me better. That extends to hey, if you if you're doing some sneaky stuff behind the scenes of treating your employees, shitty in firing people because you find out that you know, he drinks too much at home and he might be an alcoholic. Let's get rid of before he becomes a problem, you know, that's, that's shady stuff.

Michael Brown 45:05

Yeah, I agree. Like, it's a really good issue in question to bring up, it's because like, part of me is thinking, well, there are certain individuals that, you know, just are looking to cheat people, for lack of a better ethics a minority people, and, you know, but just certain individuals, like whether it's an issue over 10 bucks, or it's an issue over a million dollar sale Commission, which, you know, if a small business salesman get some $100 million contract, it's, it is the same as you know, but it's like, but then, but then that same issue of greed confronts that small business owner that maybe as a small business they hadn't had experience with before or whatever. And so maybe they're greedier than they otherwise would have been, or whatever. But, but um, I think part of me is thinking, well, people that are inclined to kind of cheat or whatever, probably going to do that, or, you know, press or take from someone unfairly are probably going to do that, or at risk to do that no matter what environment they're in, whether it's large company, or small, or what year it is, or whatever. But then on the other hand, it's if with a worker shortage that leverages leverage, so to speak. And so if, if a worker it like a worker is going to be more valued, on average for doing their job, if they're doing it satisfactory, in that circumstance, than a work or in a situation where they're doing their job well, but there's a, you know, hundreds of job applicants waiting to take his or her job at any point, you know, so I think the leverage itself makes a difference. I will say, though, that as far as the mindset and emotions and I ideology, like all that, like wanting to do better for workers, I don't I think companies only gotten worse. But I think all all of society has gotten worse. I think a lot of that boils down to what I view as propaganda from the mute like mainstream what people think is normal mainstream media, I think is hate talk, like not not legally actionable hate speech. It's hate. It's like, I only pay attention. So I know who's gonna hate who including me, for what reason, I don't watch it, because I think there's anything constructive or useful as a citizen I can do or think about it, or any good can come from it. For the most part. Yeah. And along that lines, I think a lot of these things with, like, if you're talking about like the Civil Rights Act, or like Americans Disability Act, sitting on additional protections that like, there's been all sorts of very, you know, meaningful changes in the law in a more opening and inclusive direction of giving more people rights, and there's no doubt about it. And like, more means to contest situations if someone's been fired on basis, the race and so on. But with all that said, and like all that groundwork and stuff, which is still there, to an extent, I think like the the spirit a lot of that, behind it is gone, it's become more like the political landscape. It's more about this litmus test of like, how do I compare my race or my religion to someone else's, or, or even if it's not any of those factors of like, race, or identity, or sexuality, or if it's, if it's just like a factor of this person, the other political party here, or people in a different country, or whatever it is, I just think a lot of the function of politics is to kind of like, take some concepts that used to be good things like he caught, or there are good things, but the meaning behind them all was like equal opportunity, and like treating others with compassion and stuff. And then kind of taking those concepts of like race discrimination wherever but then kind of using them for the wrong context. Like when some Facebook debate with someone you know, so yeah, it's up to you. Like, I'll say, I have a problem with this politician selling arms to this to Saudi Arabia or whatever. Yeah, like, and they use the arms for bad reasons, in my opinion, and I have a problem with that, and then get a response that was just like a white male to say that, you know, okay, so you know, it but but that the other is I mentioned that, as I say, Oh, poor me on Unnai as a white male, like, I definitely have had it easy. You know, because of that, and a lot of ways throughout my whole life. But the reason why I noticed that reaction, because it happens more and more over time. In fact, I serve it more towards like others and stuff. But it's like, if we sit back and say like, what are we really doing here? If we're talking about something that has nothing to do with anybody's race or religion, and then it's just culturally acceptable to interject those things to like, win that argument, say they lose and they like that's the kind of finding the problem with and repeated observational, and this

Leighann Lovely 49:41

is why I try to stay away from just reading random social media because it drives me crazy when you look on a perfectly normal social media post and all of a sudden it digresses into some buddy bringing in something that has nothing to do with The original post but becomes this argument about politics, race or religion. We are coming to time. So this the question of the season. Okay, I've been asking everybody this question. So if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be? And why?

Michael Brown 50:23

Yeah, that's a great question. For me, yeah, ties a little bit into being an employment lawyer and seeing things from that perspective, but also just I think it could have been something that happened me no matter what my profession or whatever, but, like there's a point in time in my career where I knew I want to do a play rights law but I also wasn't in a city I knew I didn't want to be in for long term because of my kid and so on work environment wasn't exactly what I wanted and so on. But that was like the first time where I was proactive, like my own destiny instead of just looking at job postings, you know, like an Appleton or Fox Valley where I want to move and seeing okay, what's available there. I actually thought to myself, Where do I want to work? So I knew the city what type of law firm environment do I want to have? How many hours you know, I roughly wanna work do I want to work in the type of legal practices a lot of hourly billing clients which has its own pressures and and and risks for clients and stuff but also just pressures an attorney you got to build a certain number of hours a year and incentives that can sometimes go bad with that and so on. But you know, I just give thought to like all these factors like once I had some experience and like I knew is generally what I wanted area law but I knew like more administratively and practice wise and lifestyle wise through experience kind of what I wanted. So at that point, so looking at the job postings and so on, I I call up someone I knew that was a connector but I can't remember how they like some person that was recommended by someone else I trust that worked in the Fox Valley where I'm from but I just didn't really know as high school and grew up and stuff but I didn't know any attorneys really at the time in the area so I found someone's an attorney was recommended by someone I trust that has told this person like here's here's I was looking for a job thanks for spending your time talking to me and you know, the local scene and so on but like, here's the type of legal work I do here's the type of law firm environment I'm looking for and the type of hours and thought so forth. And then telling him that he recommended someone he's like, Hey, there's there's a guy law firm I know and the guy the first name it was Peterson Bergen Crosse in Appleton But as John Peterson you only refer me to like the first name under the law firm. He's like, You should call John I just called up John randomly never having talked to him before like, hey, you know, I'm unfamiliar. It's for him Locky like alert, you might be interested, like having someone like you work for he's like, sure. They're just like, come on talk interview. Like, like, even talk to his other fighters and stuff. Yeah, I want like interviewing, I think a couple times, you know, all the lawyers there and stuff before I was hired. But it's just funny, like how that worked out. And it was a it was a great work environment, I still interact and talk with those folks and stuff. And, you know, good people, good attorneys. And, but so it but that was really the first job I had that I like truly felt I chose myself and chose wisely and chose, like educating myself in the right ways. But it was mainly because it was proactive on my part, you know, like you can get a job listing. So I'm do a good job research, like talk to people that know that people have done that, too, you know, and gotten saved from taking a couple bad job offers, you know, in the past, you know, from doing that, but I think being proactive is a big part of it. Well, that's

Leighann Lovely 53:45

awesome. And it is it's it's often about who you know, and and when you decide that you're going to take you know the direction or really take control of your of your destiny, asking the right people getting to know the right people asking for advice. That's usually when the bus things happen. And that's awesome. And thank you for sharing that. And I really appreciate you coming on and talking to me today. Um, this has been a very educational conversation for me, especially, you know, talking with somebody who, who really truly is in the in the thick of, you know, a side of society and business and has a background that is way beyond my understanding, and you know, the legal side of things. So I truly thank you Michael for talking with me today.

Michael Brown 54:35

Oh, no problem. And thank you for having me on as I really enjoyed it. And it was interesting for me as well. Well, you

Leighann Lovely 54:40

have a wonderful day.

Michael Brown 54:42

You too. Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 54:44

Michael Brown Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/michaelfbrownemployeerights

Michael Brown E-mail Address - mbrown@dvglawpartner.com

Website, DVG Law Partners - dvglawpartner.com

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She is a hockey mom, cancer survivor, creative warrior, and badass ball of Canadian sunshine. Most importantly she is just one awesome person that makes me smile!

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Leighann Lovely 01:05

Today's conversation is one that I'm very excited to have. She self proclaimed a badass ball of Canadian sunshine. She is a hockey mom cancer survivor creative warrior she is passionate about living life with purpose on purpose. She loves helping others do the same. Terry Kerr is an executive coach and empowerment strategist with the unstuck duck coaching. She helps smart, competent women entrepreneurs create a career and life that is both fulfilling and profitable by overcoming the self sabotage that keeps them stuck in the muck. Welcome, Terry. I am so excited to have you here today. I've had the opportunity to get to know you. And now I've got the opportunity to interview you. So welcome.

Teri Kerr 02:05

Thank you. I'm super excited to be here.

Leighann Lovely 02:07

Yeah, So why don't you start out by telling me first. What is the unstuck duck coaching and you got to tell me how you came up with the name for that? Because I mean, it's it's awesome.

Teri Kerr 02:22

Okay, perfect. So yes, I can start with that, because it's a really great introduction. So I am first of all, Terry Kerr. I'm an executive coach and empowerment strategist with the unstuck deck coaching. I work mostly with entrepreneurs, but I really will work with anybody that struggles with procrastination and self sabotage. When I was first, when my okay when my kids were little, their favorite book was called one duck stack. It was about a duck that got stuck in the muck, and no matter what she did, she could not get unstuck. It was a counting book. So it was like to Moose clump to the duck, no luck still stuck. And it became kind of this, this term, this No luck still stuck became a term in our family, you know, like, as the kids were growing up, like, so buddy, how's it going in there? No luck still stuck. So we, when I was when I decided to become a coach, which was back in 2018, I was meeting with a girlfriend of mine, and we were talking about brand. And I am not a boring person. And I just did not want it to be Terry Kerr coaching. Like it just didn't inspire me. So we were talking and she said, Tell me about your ideal client. Who do you want to work with? I said, You know what, I just want to help people get unstuck. And I had this light bulb go off in my head, saying no luck still stuck. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, this is so much fun. And it's a great opener for podcasts.

Leighann Lovely 03:58

Right? It's awesome, right? I mean, it's a great opener for any conversation. Really,

Teri Kerr 04:05

It is. And there's so many great analogies with ducks and ecosystems and Mach and the muck of self sabotage. And it's just also just a really funny word to say, you know, yeah, decks are funny, and people like them. And it's also really relatable. I was at the dog park last week, talking to another dog, Mom, no business cards, you know, obviously, we're standing in the middle of a field. And I said, you know, just look me up. I'm the unstuck duck. And sure enough, she said, she's like, I totally remember that. And my kids remembered the unstuck duck and it just became a thing. So absolutely. That's where that's how the unstuck duck was hatched.

Leighann Lovely 04:50

Yeah. And you know what, just from that name, I was like, I have to talk to her. Like I need to know what this is all about. And I remember that The very first time that I heard you speak, I wanted to know more. I wanted to know what it was all about. And that that in itself is the perfect marketing. tagline that's That in itself, I mean, having a name that that drives people to want to know more, even if it's just to know what do you do? Yeah, that's perfect.

Teri Kerr 05:20

I have, like a mantra in life that it doesn't have to be hard. It really doesn't. And if I was constantly having to spell my name out, because I have one R in my first name, it would just drive me up the wall. So it's simple, it's easy, it's relatable, it's memorable, and it fits. And it's fun, and it's quirky. And it's all the things that I am. So it works really well.

Leighann Lovely 05:47

Well, welcome to my world. You know, my parents wanted to torture me by spelling My name L e i g h a n n. I mean, yeah, everywhere I go. And usually it's Hey is leg han there. No, there is no.

Teri Kerr 06:04

My first name is actually Terry M. It's all one word. Okay. No, hyphen no e on the end of it. One R, t e r i a n n e all one word? And I? Yeah. My whole life, right. My whole life. It's been like that. Yep. So I get it.

Leighann Lovely 06:23

So when did you decide, you know, when was it that pivotal moment, I want to go out on my own because you were with Election BC for 16 years? And then one day it was? Yep. I'm going to I'm going to do this on my own.

Teri Kerr 06:41

Well, actually, to be fair, I still work with Elections BC and Elections, Canada, those are contracts that I do. But before I was a coach, I was actually a fundraiser at The University here where I live. I was the Athletics and Alumni Development Officer for the University of Victoria. I was the only fundraiser for the athletics department at the University. It was actually a great job when I started, and then it was really high. I wouldn't say high pressure, it was just a lot. You know, it was a lot. And I ended up being diagnosed with breast cancer in 2015. And at that point, I had just finished my master's while working full time, I had two kids in elite hockey at the same time ice hockey, I had a hosted to international students at my house at any given time, I was a My marriage was a very well oiled machine. It was like okay, so who's eating where? Who's eating? What? Who's driving? Who? Where? Who's going to what, what, you know, what tournament this weekend, and we live on an island. So it's like, who's on the ferry? Who's carpooling? Who all these things. And when the Christmas before I was diagnosed, we my husband and I had come to the decision that we were going to move, we were going to move to Saskatchewan. This was our grand adventure. So I'm in Victoria, British Columbia, Saskatchewan is the middle of the world right now. It's like center of Canada. And it is not somewhere that a lot of people move to a lot of people move away from Saskatchewan, okay. But my children wanted to play hockey there. They, my husband had gone to school there. It was a great place for kids to raise a family, it was gonna be, you know, an eighth of the price of living where I live. And so we've made this big decision to make a big life change and move. And part of that was I decided to go and get my deal with my benefits. So I had got my eyes done. My teeth, Jack had all these appointments. And I ended up with a stepping into a mobile mammogram clinic and finding out that I had a very aggressive form of breast cancer. So that changed everything. I had three years that I was off work. When I went back to work. I like to say that my perspective had changed. I no longer was interested in other people's definitions of success. I was no longer interested in working 24/7 I wasn't injured. I started asking questions. I started getting into trouble. I started you know, questioning authority. And and really, some people would say that the work was toxic. I don't believe that but it made me toxic. So I started looking into personal development type of ideas, and I fell in love with the coaching world. I got myself a coach, I decided to go back to school, I left my job and became an entrepreneur and I decided so I went back to school and got my executive coaching degree at well Rhodes search It was a certificate in graduate coaching at the Royal Roads, university, and everything. And then I left, I left my job where I was and haven't looked back, honestly, that's the best thing that could happen to me. And honestly, I do believe I was due for a break upside the head, I had been on autopilot in my life. And it was all about striving, it was all about being the best, it was all about perfection and excellence and all the things that were just just too much, I don't need that. And so now, I stand in ease and flow. And let's just, you know, everything happens for a reason. And I believe that cancer was the best gift I could have gotten.

Leighann Lovely 10:52

So there's a list of things that I want to say, first. Wow. I don't think that that even begins to say, what courage and strength you have, to one take something that most people struggle to overcome. Obviously, on on their best day, getting a diagnosis of you know, a an aggressive breast cancer is obviously life altering for not only you but everybody in your life. But you took that and you turned it into one obviously a fight I'm I'm sure that that was a horrific fight that you that you undertook, you clearly have a strong support system in place. But you turn that not only into what some would say, a tragedy, you turned it into a triumph for you and eventually came out. Obviously happy, successful and doing something that you clearly love to do, I can tell that just in the way that you talk about it and, and in knowing you a little bit and then the time that we have gotten to know each other i i know that you, you love what you do. So wow, I think that's amazing. And you know, if there's anybody out there listening, this is this is a story of triumph. And you know, few people would say that being given or getting a diagnosis like that as a gift. But to come out the other side and be a stronger person and be able to continue on your way in a better form is definitely a gift. And you're you're living it, you're you're taking every moment and in stride. And and that's what people do. Sometimes people do need that brick upside the head, as you said, to finally take a true look at who they are what they need to do, in order to change the path or the trajectory that they're on.

Teri Kerr 12:58

My oncologist said to me and I will never forget it, I will never forget it. And I and I pass it on as much as I can, is that she said often women, and probably everybody but she was speaking to me. Women in their 40s that have something like this, whether it's a diagnosis, a divorce, a trauma, you know, something could even be your children leaving and suddenly looking around and going what it gives you the opportunity to take a look at every rock in your riverbed, and pick it up and choose whether you want it in your life. And I totally did that there were relationships that fell by the wayside. The big one that fell for me was my career. I wanted something different than what I was doing. And I don't know that my place of work where I was was ready to have me different than I was when I started. They didn't hire me for how I am now. They hired me for how I was then. Right. And that growth, that growth period of, of knowing that it wasn't, it wasn't for me anymore. It was it was super empowering, to be able to say hey, you know what, this isn't working for me. I'm not happy, you're not happy? Why are we continuing to push this boulder up the hill?

Leighann Lovely 14:19

Right? You know, and, and it's interesting. Some people would say, if they were to look at that situation and not know you, and you were to say, well, I'm going to end this career and I'm going to do something else. I've often heard people say, well, she's having a midlife crisis or he's having a midlife crisis. They'll come to their senses. Well, let's, and it irritates me sometimes when I hear that and I go wait a second. Just because they're, you know, at a certain age, and they've decided that I don't want to do this anymore. And yeah, sometimes people go out and buy ridiculously expensive cars and do crazy I understand that but often they'll they'll tag that to drastic career moves that are well thought out. And they think, oh, they'll get over this. This is exactly why people do they do they, as you said, what go into their riverbed and turnover? What was how did you say that that was great.

Teri Kerr 15:20

Pick up every rock in your riverbed and take a look and choose whether you want it in your life.

Leighann Lovely 15:25

There you go. I mean that. And that happens more frequently than we know. But so often it's brushed away as Oh, he or she is going to get over that, it'll go back to the way it was. And often that happens, especially when it's unfortunately a divorce or something that's, that's going on. But it does, you have these moments of clarity, especially as you become an older man or an older woman. And, and I can only speak to obviously a woman's point of view, you and I are both women here talking. But you know, I've had friends who have gotten to that age and they go, Wait a second, I can be so much more, I don't want I can't see the next half of my life. And I hope this isn't the half of my life and hope. Anyways, it's not getting to that. But I don't want the next half of my life to be like the first half of my life, or the last 10 years of my career, 20 years of my career, I can be better, I can be happier. And I can give so much more. And sometimes it takes a divorce, sometimes it takes a diagnosis, the loss of a loved one, a grandparent, you know a child's getting ill

Teri Kerr 16:42

You knows this, I have this concept that my mentor told me about once that said, you know, everything happens gradually. And then suddenly, it so say for example, you have a drip, like a water drip in your house, or even at the top of your driveway. And so a drip years drip, drip, drip, and then suddenly your house slides down the hill. Or, you know, every day you wake up and you have you know, you're you go to McDonald's for breakfast because it's on the way and whatever. So you have say, you know, to hashbrowns every morning and an egg McMuffin. And, you know, we have double doubles up here, which is not a McDonald's reference. That's okay. Um, so you have these things that you do the same thing every day. And then suddenly you have a heart attack. Like gradually and then suddenly, and we see it everywhere. It can be, you know, nag, nag, nag, nag. And then suddenly you get a divorce. Right? Like it can be just these little undermining conversations. It can be underwater unrest, and then suddenly people are storming the White House, like people that are surprised by that, you know, and it shouldn't be because if they'd actually looked and said, Okay, for the past 20 years, I have been doing everything that my boss has told me. And now I have have an opinion that I want to do something differently. Why am I the crazy one?

Leighann Lovely 18:15

Yeah, absolutely. Because of what has happened with the pandemic right now. We're seeing this. So for years, everybody has, oh, I don't want to go to my job. I don't want to do this. They're complaining here and there. They're bringing things up here and there. They're not being heard. They're not being heard. Will all of the sudden, the world shuts down the world reopens? And now we have no workers. Because there's a ton of people who did not go back into the workforce for retirement, a variety of reasons. I'm not gonna rehash all of this. We've all heard it a million times. But now we have this great resignation happening, and everybody's going, what is going on? Everything what you just said, Everything happens slowly until it doesn't anymore, it happens. Suddenly, everybody's going, Holy crap. There's all these positions open. I've been complaining and unhappy for years. So everybody's just going and going, I quit. There's like five jobs that I can go and get today. In fact, that's, that's, there's 20 jobs that I can go and apply to today. So, I mean, it's no wonder that Well,

Teri Kerr 19:25

I think the best thing that's come out of this pandemic, to be honest, I think it's one of the best things is that people are choosing what's actually important to them. Absolutely. People are noticing the people that live in their house with them that they haven't really spent much time with. But while you're kind of cool, you know, you're kind of smelly, but I kind of like you. Right? Like, that's the thing and people are looking at their spouses and choosing. Are you really my person, maybe we don't know each other at all. Maybe we have just been a well-oiled machine, and really don't know each other in any way or they're choosing to be like, hey, you know what, I can work in this little zoom cube from anywhere in the world? Why would I work here? Why would I continue to be in this, you know, high rise in the middle of downtown when I can be, you know, have a garden and I can do the things like I'm just me or the other way around. I mean, why am I continually mowing the lawn when I could be? I could be living on a boat in the ocean. Yeah. So I think that this introspection and, and taking of the time, and I know a lot of people wanted it to be way faster, but some people learn slower. You know, like, this is an opportunity for people to really do. There was a, there was an article right at the very, I'd say probably maybe four or five months into the pandemic. And it was titled The Great reset. And it was about like, ships and tankers into the ocean, and the whales come back. And suddenly the, you know, the trees are growing again. And there's like, this is the world resetting. Let's just stop everything. And for me, my cancer diagnosis was that for me, it was that it was that, wow, okay. I, I want to encourage this relationship, and not this one that I've had to be in, for whatever reason, are not chosen to make a choice in that relationship. Like toxic people, it made it all about them, like I had, I had a cousin, and she's not with us anymore. But she actually, we'd set up a date, and she was gonna come for a visit. And she's like, Oh, I just, I just can't see you like this. So I'm like, really? You think it's easy for me to be like this? Like, I'm sorry, I didn't realize it was all about you. You know, and those type of narcissistic conversations, like, wow, I didn't see that one. But I'm going to what I'm going to do with it, right?

Leighann Lovely 21:57

There's no room in this world anymore. For that, there are people like you or me

Teri Kerr 22:03

THere is certantly not room here for that no, in and I'm the only one that I'm in control of my own self and my own sphere. You know, there's no room for that here.

Leighann Lovely 22:14

No, people are starting to push back. I don't want people who are not real in my life. If you're going to if you're going to put on a show, if you're going to do a little dance, and you're going to pretend, I don't want you in my life. I want to be real. I want to be who I am. If you want to be that, come and have a conversation with me. If you want to be your authentic self. You want. And you know what? I'm a very accepting person.

Teri Kerr 22:42

Yeah, that's it when the world's moving. I had a conversation earlier this morning, I was on networking call. And a girl was a lady, a woman was talking about how she was overwhelmed. It's a classic entrepreneur thing. I'm overwhelmed with way too much going on. I got that. And how do I delegate was her big question. I'm like, You know what, fall in love, fall in love with the feeling of what it will be like to be free of all that stuff. Because if you fall in love with what that input impact will be on yourself, your business, and you're like, Wow, this is amazing. I don't have to worry about all this stuff. That needs to be that that is not my zone of genius. That is not my space. That is I have no business doing. Like fall in love with that ceiling, even if you have to create it at the beginning. But falling in love with who you want to be helps you create that experience for yourself. Because you get a litmus test, I always ask the question for my clients. So you know, how are you creating the experience that you want for your life right now? Because if you don't have what you want, that's the first question. But the second question is, are what is what you're doing in alignment with that? And if not, then why are you doing it? What can you do? What do you have the opportunity to do to change your experience that you have in this life? We, and its not proven by any stretch, but we have one chance we want chance here? Why are we not taking the bet? I don't want to be 80 years old and choosing to finally travel the world. Sorry, right. I don't feel like that's going to be the best experience for me. Yeah, I would rather do it when I can enjoy it and be mobile and do the things that I want to do.

Leighann Lovely 24:38

100% agree. And it's it's interesting I have that I talk to people all the time about not in a coaching level just on a hey, I'd love to know like, are you happy? Do you enjoy what you do for a living out of pure curiosity? Not to mention I'm also on you know, my my real job is In the recruiting realm, you know, I, I help companies find employees, I help people find jobs, you know, and so often I have, you know, conversations with people, do you like what you do? You don't? Why are you doing it? Change it, you're the only one that can.

Teri Kerr 25:22

you don't necessarily need to like what you do, but you like the effects of what you do. Right? Like, my husband, for example, has a great job, it from the outside, everybody would be like, Wow, he's got a great job, you know, his pension, he's got all the different, you know, he has the freedom to do what he wants to do. That's what he loves. He loves that he can go to work. And then when he comes home, he can let it go and do what he loves them. And I speak a lot. We I have clients that are like, trying to build their side hustle so that they can leave their full time job. One friend in particular, she calls you know, I'm just on my way to my soul sucking job. I was like, Well, you know, what you speak about comes about? So how about we talk about it as your sugar daddy, that's gonna pay for your hustle, right? Like, it's, let's this is this is what is providing for right now. Maybe not forever. But for right now, this is providing you the funds to build what you want. So shifting that shifting how you talk about it, shifting what you what you the energy you bring to it. Like, if I'm thinking of going to a soul sucking job, I'm waking up with dread, right. But if I'm thinking like, Wow, if I just go and put in eight hours powering through, I might even be able to get as much work done as I can in four hours, then I get to do what I want to do. I can spend the rest of my day doing what I want to do mindset. And go to Users, people underestimate the words that we use. Yep. Very much so. And some of them some of the words we use, like I even think about, you know, kids, these kids these days, totally dating myself to like, wow, that's sick, isn't it? I feel like that's not a very good connotation for a really good thing. Because, you know, or even like, wow, you killed it. I'm just reading everyday.

Leighann Lovely 27:26

Should I be should I be callings, as you know, fascinating to come and pick up the carcass?

Teri Kerr 27:32

Right. But I mean, even things like narrowing it down the top three that I'm always working on with my clients, or I want you know, I have to, if you're saying you have to, you're standing in a victim mindset, because that means your circumstances are in charge of what's going on for you. If you have to do it, we have a choice, no matter what, I have to pay my mortgage, I don't have to pay my mortgage, I like to pay my mortgage, because I would rather have a roof over my head. I choose to pay my mortgage because it's going to get me what I want in, like, where I live, right? I don't have to, I don't have to, I get to, I choose to. And the other one is I need to, like the word need literally has lack in it. Like it's like, it's like I need is coming from a sense of of lack. It's coming from a sense of I don't have that thing. So I need that thing. Nice thing. I mean, it's different when you're like, wow, I really need to I need to take an Advil, well, I you can go take an Advil, right like it means it basically it means that I have a situation that needs remedy. Right? Right. And if we switch up those just those two words and and should I mean I should is not allowed in mine in my entire repertoire. But to I get to I have I want to I'm choosing to because if I say I want to do something, there's a little voice inside my head that says do you want to wow you know what, I really don't want to make a make a choice here and do something different. That I actually want. So that's where I always start with my clients. Like do you need to you have to know you either get to you should you sorry not should you get to you want to you choose to you are going to whatever it is it just takes the power back it's all about empowerment that in right there is empowerment to me being able to say you know what, it's totally my choice. Whatever happens. I didn't choose to get cancer, but I have a choice what I make out of it

Leighann Lovely 29:51

Right.

Teri Kerr 29:51

I chose to get treatment I chose to get all you know I had a say in it.

Leighann Lovely 29:58

Very interesting

Teri Kerr 29:59

You don't have a choice. In what moment you keel over and die? That's the only thing you don't have a choice. Well, some people take that choice into their own hands. But generally,

Leighann Lovely 30:10

and all of the everything you said is so interesting, because there are so many times where I'm like, Oh, I have to do this. And you're right. When you say that,

Teri Kerr 30:18

Like even looking at your shoulders, you're like, oh, I have to do this. Like, it's just this like, Ah, I like to try to like characterize and like, really? How does that feeling make you like, if you were to act that out? But did you ever do in province in school and drama class or something? Did you ever do anything like that?

Leighann Lovely 30:36

Yeah, I hate it.

Teri Kerr 30:39

When you're, when you're on stage, they're like, Okay, look angry. Your whole body goes into that, like, because somebody at the back of the auditorium needs to be able to see that you're angry and not just be like, you know, grumpy face. Oh,

Leighann Lovely 30:56

I wish people could see us right now.

Teri Kerr 31:00

I'm trying to like put words into what my facial expressions. But like, if you if you actually were the owner of I have to, or I need to, like he like excuse. Listen to this back. But anyway, so good.

Leighann Lovely 31:21

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you're right. You the words, the words you say, Give feeling to you, as you're saying them, like, I have to do this or I have. But when you say, Oh, you and I do this with my daughter perfect example. Guess what? It's your party, you get to have a party. And I'm using that reference because it was her birthday. Just this yesterday. You know, you get to have a party. And you know, it's she's so exciting. excited about it. But when I say you need to go potty, you have to go potty right now. Her reaction, you can see her her whole entire again, for those of you don't know, she's four. So I'm not not saying this to my 15 year old. She's four. So reminding her, you can see her entire body language change, because it's. So I realized that and I stopped using those words. And I just say to her, go potty. And she gets up and she goes, but as soon as they use certain key words, you have, to she refuses? I mean, it's absolutely she digs in. I don't have to. Very interesting.

Teri Kerr 32:31

Yeah, it's the thing. Like it's like the mortgage analogy, right, like, right. Well, you choose not to. But we're not stopping

Leighann Lovely 32:40

you. You can Yeah, you don't have to, but you're going to have an eviction notice very soon. And then you do have to leave.

Teri Kerr 32:52

Right? Yes. So yeah. Even like I think about the people that I work with are mostly entrepreneurs who said that at the beginning, yeah. And, you know, we choose generally to become an entrepreneur, like, it's a choice that we have literally made that we are not willing to work for somebody else. We want to work for ourselves. Yep. And so many people are like, Oh, my God, I just don't want to do that, sir, I have to do this, or I have to post on social media every day. It's like, No, you don't you get to choose. When you do that, if you want the consequence of having profit, you might need to have a sales call, you might choose to have a sales call, right? So you don't want that. That's okay. You can choose different things. That's the beauty of being an entrepreneur is you get to be in choice all the time. But our go to is when we are feeling up against the wall, or when we're feeling stuck. Our go to is to be like, Oh, the world is against me, you know, or I have way too much to do I have too many ideas. Or, you know, I like to I always say there's four different types of procrastinators, okay. But when it comes to self sabotage, as an entrepreneur, procrastination is just one piece. But every single one of them has a different thing. That is the path to that comes out. Right? So for example, if I'm over committer, you know, I can't let anybody else down. I have to do all the things for all the people because then they'll love me in the light be and I get to be, you know, the people person. Right? And what the consequence of that is, overwhelm way too much going on, trying to make up people pleasing trying to make everybody happy. Right. That's one example. Another would be an over analyzer. So somebody who's you know, analyzes everything right, but they love to have all the information before they make a decision. They lack spontaneity. They like to be like Okay, they're gonna save face whenever they can. So there'll be like, I can't get it wrong, like, God forbid I get it wrong. So I'm not gonna make a decision at all. I'm just gonna, you know, a couple people like that, who were analyze all things up me I'm a squirrel chaser. I have way too many ideas. Yeah, I don't actually believe is actually a thing, I don't believe there's ever a place in the world that there's not enough ideas or that there's too many ideas. But for me, I have all the ideas, and then I'm afraid of committing to the wrong one. Right? So then I don't do anything, because I have all the ideas and everything is shiny. And if I just, you know, go do this, it'll be way more fun. And that's my squirrel chaser type of behavior. And my procrastination, like I really lacked focus, right? So focusing on one thing, that's probably you can probably tell, because I feel like this interview is kind of going like this.

Leighann Lovely 35:55

I know I have to rein you in in a little bit.

Teri Kerr 36:00

Just because I started on four, there's four, right? You know, the fourth one would be a control freak. So somebody that really would would benefit from time blocking to me, time blocking sounds like jail, but some people love it and need it and want to have control of other things. Right? And then the and so time, so those this time walking will be a strategy, I'd have a different strategy for each type of person. Right. But you know, it's funny, because we all assume that we all procrastinate and self sabotage. The same, we don't know. And I theres a different stategy for every person.

Leighann Lovely 36:38

I know some people where I can put them in those different categories. I know that I have some of those characteristics, but I know also know myself well enough to know that I'm a highly focused individual. And a very action oriented individual. If you tell me hey, do this, I will absolutely do it. But to my detriment to the point where sometimes I'll be working on a project and somebody says, hey, this needs to get done. And I'll go, Okay, let me go do it. And then I drop what I'm doing and go, Oh, shit, I need to get back to that other one. Because now I've just gone and done this. And now I need to, which drives my husband crazy, by the way, because I'll be working on a project. And then he's like, you know, we have to do this. And I'm like, Okay, let me get to it. And he's like, Well, wait, you got to finish this first. And I'm like, Yeah, but that one's really fun. I'll come back to this one. Yeah, right. If something needs to get done, I want to get it done. Right. The second so it's off my plate. So it's done. Yeah. Anyways, that that's enough. Okay, so we are running close on time. But I do want to, first you, I want to bring this up. Because this is this is pretty awesome. You are the Managing Director of the Ewomen network and have been for over a year and a half. Tell me about that.

Teri Kerr 37:55

So first of all, I stepped down as Managing Director in September, I am the managing director for the women network,

Leighann Lovely 38:01

you stepped down. It did.

Teri Kerr 38:05

But tell you about that. So I went COVID hit. I was I've been a member of the women since I became an entrepreneur, I love it. Great organization, great place to be. I love that it's a values based organization. I love the community. And I love the learning and the growth and all the different things that I've gotten out of elimine when COVID hit, I knew that as an extrovert, I felt that as an extrovert, that being locked in my house would I would literally wither and die. That was that was I could not survive without other human interaction. So I started offering out these time to rise calls. And they were first thing in the morning like, well, first thing, I'm not a morning person, they were at nine o'clock every morning. And that's first thing for me. You know, it was one of those things, that was a reason for people to get up and have a shower and present themselves. Right, and just show up and I did it for free. I was like whoever wants to come I'm gonna be on Zoom everyday at nine o'clock. So if you want to have some accountability of what you want to get done in a day, if you want some community and just need, you know, virtual hug, whatever it might happen to be. And during that time, the managing director ended up with a position with our government with our public health office. So that was kind of important during the pandemic. So I decided to step in, she asked me if I would take over managing director and I did and it's been great. It was really great. Why did I leave? I ended up getting a contract, facilitating a youth entrepreneurship program. And I couldn't take something I didn't feel like I could take something on without letting something else go. Right. So I chose to let go Have a woman. And then what ended up happening was, after six weeks of the entrepreneurship program, they didn't have enough kids for the next round. So that ended too. So then I was like, okay, so it is just me. I am the only one and I am going to be the unstuck completely. Totally.

Leighann Lovely 40:23

You got some free time?

Teri Kerr 40:25

Yeah. Because I really sat down and went, Okay, what do I want? What do I want for my business? And I get to choose. So, you know, I didn't have a choice in that contract ending. But it's worked out. Mavis, the universal shipping clerk, provided for me. That's what I call the universe providing, right God? didn't know I needed that. But thank you.

Leighann Lovely 40:54

Yeah, Well, excellence, you know, life, life has tendency to throw us a curveball. So get your baseball mitt out. Right. So the question of the season, I'm asking everybody this, and, you know, I kind of have an idea of what you might say to this, but I would never presume to, you know, assume, but the question of the season, if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be and why?

Teri Kerr 41:29

The most recent moment for me was when that contract ended. And I got to say, Okay, I'm on my own. What do I want? Because I got to take everything up until that point, and assess and decide and choose and sit and go, What is it that I want from this point forward, and really created the way that I wanted instead of somebody else? How they wanted my business to be. Now, yes, I'm sure you were expecting it to be about my cancer diagnosis. But I did not have an idea of that and becoming an entrepreneur until probably four years after my cancer diagnosis.

Leighann Lovely 42:13

Well, and again, it, we all have pivotal moments in our life in our career that drive us to the point where we are right now, as I would have, if somebody would have said, Leanne one day you'll, you'll have a podcast, I would have laughed, and completely been like, you're totally insane. You know, two years ago, I didn't listen to podcast two years ago, I didn't even really know what they were all about. And, and then I had the opportunity to start one. And I mean, again, those pivotal, pivotal moments or those. Sometimes they're quiet whispers that come to us. Sometimes they're major curveballs that are thrown at us. But they they, like you said they change. And they force us to make decisions about what we want. And then we get to choose.

Teri Kerr 43:17

I almost corrected you on the forcing us because I don't think that anything forces us to do anything except for sit and do nothing. And that's always a choice. sitting and doing nothing with the choice with the, with the gifts that the universe gives us is absolutely a choice. And I'm going to even venture to guess that 75% of the people out there are sitting there bypassing gifts.

Leighann Lovely 43:42

Yep. No, I know, I agree.

Teri Kerr 43:44

Or it's safe, or I've made this choice. And I'm gonna stick to it. Whether just because I have to be right. Yeah, like I and I not going to do anything different than what has been what is expected of me. There's full cultures that it's about what other people's expected expectations are. And, you know, it's an it's really a gift to be able to say, Okay, this isn't what I want. What do I want? I'm going to choose to do things differently. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 44:17

Opportunity Knocks constantly, but it takes a special individual to open the door. And there are so many people out there who don't even see the door. And it's it's unfortunate, but not everybody is cut out for entrepreneurship, not everybody and that's a good thing because we do need people to to do all different types of roles and so but okay, so we are at time, Terry, if somebody wants to reach out to you to, you know, contact you, how are they able to do that? And of course, it will also be in the show notes, but how are they able to do that?

Teri Kerr 44:57

The best way is probably through social media. At unstuck, duck, that's going to be the easiest way for everybody to remember. My website is unstuckduck.ca Because I'm Canadian on Facebook on Instagram. It's at unstuckduck, and otherwise it's Teri, which has won our teri@unstuckduck.ca If you want to send me an email.

Leighann Lovely 45:20

Wonderful again, thank you so much. This has been such a fun conversation with you today.

Teri Kerr 45:26

Always, always. Thank you, Leighann.

Leighann Lovely 45:31

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Teri Kerr

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/unstuckduck

E-mail – teri@unstuckduck.ca

You can learn more about her a unstuckduck.ca or follow her on IG or FB @unstuckduck.

Website / Social Media Links: www.unstuckduck.ca FB/IG/LI @unstuckduck FB Group “The Empowered Entrepreneur - From the Muck to the Magic” fb.com/groups/unstuckduck

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The conversation with these two amazing women is one for the books, they are fun-loving, kind-hearted, and brilliant businesswomen.

Kathy Miller and Shannon Karels Co-founders and Authors

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us. This should be an amazing conversation with two brilliant women. Shannon Karels is a senior operations manager who has led multiple lean transformations, and ran operations for two large publicly traded corporations across multiple industries and business models. She started her career in supply chain management and progressed through Lean and operation leadership roles. Through this journey, Shannon has improved cultures in numerous manufacturing facilities by leading employees empowerment and engagement, and building highly successful teams with a focus on business results. Shannon is known for leading accountable organizations built on trusting relationships that improve the company's profitability and customer experience. Shannon holds a bachelor's degree in supply chain management from Western Michigan University. Other amazing guest is Kathy Miller. Kathy Miller is the senior operations executive who has held numerous global vice president and director roles both in manufacturing Lean Enterprise leadership, Kathy is a Shingo Prize recipient for large businesses as a plant manager. She started her career in operations as a 17 year old Co Op student at a vehicle assembly plant and progress through the engineering marketing, lean manufacturing and operation leadership roles working for four large publicly traded corporations in executive roles. Kathy is a transformational leader who constantly delivers impressive business results through team development, process disciplines and continuous improvement. Kathy is known for creation of inclusive culture based on a trust, respect and accountability. Kathy holds a Bachelors of Science degree in industrial and System Engineering from the Kettering University formerly GMI Engineering and Management Institute, a master's degree of Business Administration from Ball State University, and a Master's Degree in Applied positive psychology from the University of Pennsylvania, Kathy was inducted into the women in manufacturing Hall of Fame in 2021. welcome Kathy and Shannon, it is amazing to talk with you today. I've not have the opportunity to read your book. But I am very excited to have this conversation. I just I'm thrilled that two women come together and write such an amazing book about an industry that I'm sure has been an interesting ride for both of you to break into and really shine. And so thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. So why don't you start off by just telling me a little bit about yourself. So, Shannon, why don't you go first?

Shannon Karels 04:06

Sure. Hi, I'm Shannon Karels. I am the co founder and co author with Kathy Miller, of sisters and Steal Toes and Stilettos, which is a true story of two women manufacturing leaders and Lean Transformation success. I actually started my career in manufacturing in supply chain. So I spent quite a few years moving up through different supply chain functions. And then I found my passion in Lean transformations when I was doing that, and one of my plants. And so I spent quite a few years working in different facilities, transforming plants using mean lean methodologies, and then started to run my own plants which was really what I enjoy doing the most and developing positive work cultures so that all people who work there could thrive and contribute to the business.

Leighann Lovely 04:56

Excellent. So Kathy, why don't you introduce yourself?

Kathy Miller 05:00

Thanks, Leighann, Thanks, Shannon. So I'm Kathy Miller and I have been in in around manufacturing operations for a very long time, I literally started my career at the age of 17 years old as a co-op student in a vehicle assembly plants. So I went to a school called GMI, or Kettering University, and all five years of your undergraduate program, you work half the time in a real business. So I grew up very, very quickly. I always say that if I can't be a rock star, I'd love to run a vehicle assembly plant. And I think it's just because that's where my roots started. I think it's so amazing that every 60 seconds, a functioning vehicle comes off the end of that line. So I went from there to work in automotive electronics, and I worked in engineering and marketing. And after a while, I really found my way back to operations. I just really missed the whole soul of manufacturing, I would say, so went back, became a superintendent ran a number of pressure sensor departments, the got a call. And the manufacturing. the superintendent said Kathy, we're gonna put you on a lien team in a special assignment. I was very upset because I thought I was doing a good job. And I thought, you know, why are you sidelining me, but it actually changed the trajectory of my career. So I was able to learn from the very early practitioners of lean manufacturing themselves, Jim Womack, John Shook Rick Harris. And since then, I've led operations and led lean manufacturing and operating systems for for major companies. So that's what I've been doing. And it was in one of those assignments where I met Shannon.

Leighann Lovely 06:54

Excellent. And I was just gonna ask, you know, how did the two of you, you know, come together? Where did your paths cross?

Kathy Miller 07:03

Well, that's a great story. And it's actually in the book. But in a nutshell, I was in charge of lean and quality for a company, and was touring the globe, going to the different plants checking out their quality systems in their progress in lean manufacturing. And I was really learning how to do Lane packing, and did not bring my safety shoes, because they take up half of a carry-on piece of luggage. And I showed up at Shannon's plant, and they said, No problem, Kathy, we have extra safety shoes for you. They were all men sizes, or those little like, I call them duck boot things, you know, those little attachments you put on that you really can't walk around the plants in. So Shannon, very graciously overheard this conversation as I was, you know, distraught looking at these shelves of shoes and attachments that would not help me and came up and asked what my shoe size was, coincidentally, we were the exact same size of shoes. And she offered me her so I could go on the plant tour. And that's how she became shoe-sharing Shannon.

Shannon Karels 08:13

Right. And we still share shoes, too.

Kathy Miller 08:15

That's so true.

Leighann Lovely 08:20

How strange is, you know, I have being that I come from a you know, a background where I've toured many, many manufacturing companies. I too, have experienced where I've walked into a company and I went, Oh my gosh, I don't have my safety shoes. And how often is it that they don't have a size those the duck shoe, the cap that goes on that wraps around, and then you're walking around, and it's actually more unsafe, because now you're flipping around, and you're practically tripping over your own feet, because it's half falling off because they're not made for women. They're there or I shouldn't say they're not made for women. They're not made small enough for my tiny six-and-a-half-size shoe. And then there was actually one time where one of the HR people said don't worry, I have another I have another pair of shoes and I went really, you're gonna let me wear your shoe. She goes yeah, it's way better than wearing those. And I went, Wow, okay. Yeah, I would much prefer to do that. So, that is that is an awesome story. I mean, because I guarantee that there are other women out there which guessing which is why you have been, you know, so successful and understanding those pains. There are a ton of other women out there who have experienced the exact same thing. So yeah. So you I mean, you obviously you wrote a book you you reference, you know the story of how you met is in the book, so When did you start talking about the idea of writing your book? And you know, what inspired you originally to even start having this conversation?

Shannon Karels 10:11

Yeah, it's another great story, actually, Kathy are full of stories by the way. Three, you you'll, when you read the book, you'll learn that our relationship grew from this, you know, initial interaction to a subordinate boss relationship to a friendship to now it's more of like a sister, sister like friendship that we have. So we spend a lot of time with our families. And one weekend, almost two years ago, we were reminiscing, hanging out reminiscing about our time together. And at that time, Kathy and I were both running other businesses and having those challenges in itself. And we said, Gosh, you know, we did some really great stuff. And we were together, what made it so different, how come it doesn't work the same in these other places, and we were just reminiscing and comparing. And then we really started to think about, and we really did some really great things, not just great business results, which we got not just great lean implementation, but then also the culture pieces that we instilled. And then we just looked at each other, we're like, you know, maybe we have a story to tell. And then we just kind of kept just chatting about it. And then I went home that day, and the next day, we had the title for the book, and we started writing it, and we had a manuscript written in less than a year. And here we are,

Leighann Lovely 11:37

that's awesome. It takes some people, many, many, many years to come up with an idea come up with a manuscript come up with, I mean, that's, that's amazing, the two of you, obviously, together are a power to be reckoned with. And that's I mean, it's, it shows just an, obviously people cannot see you, but the lights that I see just coming from both of you is is is amazing, and to foster that friendship, based on you know, common interest and, and, you know, that just that commonality, and passion for something is, is awesome. That's so great. So now you obviously you work in a predominantly male environment, which by the way, is it's changing. And, you know, if you can inspire, you know, the women, the young, the young girls out there to, to see that there is a place in the world for them in these environments, in the manufacturing environment, it doesn't have to be, you know, a male environment anymore. And that's slowly changing. You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up nowadays, but did it feel that you had to work harder to be respected for your efforts? In working in the manufacturing industry?

Kathy Miller 12:51

I think that's a really great question. And we do really hope to inspire the next generation of manufacturing leaders and inspire them to know that they can be themselves, you don't have to adapt to, you know, a male stereotype or any of the other types of stereotypes you would have when you picture a manufacturing environment. But I would say, we didn't necessarily have to work harder, we did have to find our own way. Because there were times that we may have felt excluded. You know, even in the last decade here, there were still places where meetings were held that women weren't allowed, which is so interesting, in this day and age. So there were, there were some environments where we weren't necessarily always included. So those were some challenges that we had. But I think that we both always worked very hard. But there were times when we were singled out because of our gender. We didn't focus on it, you know, when we would walk into a room, we just considered ourselves people who had earned a seat at the table, right or, or a place to tour and to teach and, and contribute. But there are a lot of people who make statements sometimes very well-intentioned about, oh, a female plant manager, oh, a female vice president of operations. And, like I said, most of the time, probably very well-intentioned, but it makes you feel a little bit minimized to, you know, think about that one aspect of your identity, which we're very proud of. But there's a lot of credentials beyond, you know, the fact that we're female. So we didn't necessarily have role models, too many role models to follow in this function, and that's what we're hoping to be. But we've always just worked hard and not considered gender a barrier. We've never made issues of it unless other people did. And generally the issues that people made were, you know, comments

Leighann Lovely 15:00

Right. It's interesting that you, you'd mentioned that you earned your seat at the table, which is what we all need to do is we need to earn our seat at the table regardless of what we're doing. But it shouldn't have to be above and beyond in any way that you earn that seat. But you also had mentioned that there were some places or environments that you, you weren't welcome. Or that it didn't seem like you were welcome.

Kathy Miller 15:23

Yeah, mostly Country Club environments. So I had, when I was a executive, it came with a country club membership, because you were supposed to go and take clients golfing, or entertain them, you know, and form those relationships that lead to good, strong, you know, pipelines for sales and growth for your organization and strong relationships with your customers. And one of the ones and in all fairness, they have changed their policy now, but I went and to see the new country club I was at, and I was asked to leave a room that had, you know, a popcorn machine in it and TVs, because it was a room for men only. And you know, this was in the 2010s. So, unfortunately, about that my daughter, who was going to college was super offended and left and didn't go back for a number of years. But they changed the policy after that. But it really did leave an impression, you know, here I'm leading a business. And, you know, I was like, What am I supposed to do? Just go to the lemonade room and send notes back and forth? To the my male customers. So you know,

Leighann Lovely 16:47

the door? Yeah, I

Kathy Miller 16:48

mean, what's kind of funny about it is when men read the story now, and a lot of them are right, just because they want to understand it. And you can read the book as a lean manufacturing guide to right. So it's not just for women. But that's the most shocking comment we get back is that, you know, they're still, like, within the last 10 - 15 years, places that don't allow women to conduct business in them.

Leighann Lovely 17:17

Right. And I was gonna say this was 2010. I mean, I was thinking, Okay, could this have been like in the early 90s, or the 80s, but you're not old enough to have?

Kathy Miller 17:28

So are publishers asked if it was 1970?

Leighann Lovely 17:33

Right. I mean, it's, it's, and I understand that, yeah, there are some people who are like, well, I want to go to I want to go somewhere where I can just hang out with the boys, I want to, but to make a place a business or a place where that it's that's just, I would think that there's not a place where you're going to conduct mutual business that would attempt to do that anymore now. Yeah, I mean,

Kathy Miller 18:02

I haven't experienced it since then, necessarily. But it was still written not that long ago.

Leighann Lovely 18:09

Right. No, that really is not that long ago at all. I mean, yeah, I have no comment for that, to be perfectly honest. They, they should be ashamed of themselves that they were even in that day and age. And again, I can understand. There are people who want to go and just hang out with the boys, but then make it known that here's a boy's room, here's a girl's room. If you want to conduct business, however, here's where you go, you know, and they should call them locker rooms that that's the voice

Kathy Miller 18:44

Well, the good news is, the good news about being the only female in most situations was you know, during the meeting breaks, I didn't have a line at the restroom. Right? There you go. There were certainly advantages, right?

Leighann Lovely 19:00

Oh, yeah, what cars nowadays you wonder as our locker rooms gonna become just one gigantic room. I you know, I have your, again, nobody can see this, but I can see the faces that are being made at this point. I you know, and 10 years from now, everybody's gonna go oh, you remember when locker rooms were separated? Oh, no. I mean,

Kathy Miller 19:25

I think the thing the thing is about Shannon and myself. We don't tend to dwell on the obstacles. A lot of people ask about it. There were some hurt feelings about that, you know. And, and sometimes, you know, there's big meetings where there's recreation and almost always the activities offered are golfing, skeet shooting and fishing, you know, and many women do enjoy that. I don't, you know, so. You asked about working harder. Not really. But there were certain situations where you had to try to fit in. Yeah. So

Leighann Lovely 20:06

yeah, absolutely there. I mean, still to this day regular golf outings, the nice thing that I see a golf outings today is that it's it's not so much about the golf as it is about the community. And you see a lot of women walking on the course, with a foursome. And they're like, I shot a couple holes. Now I'm just hanging out with the team. And it's become more of, hey, if you're going to a golf outing, you have to accept that this isn't going to be a serious, serious game, or yeah,

Kathy Miller 20:37

there's lots of ways to make things inclusive, you can play best ball. And there's lots of amazing women golfers I don't want to say that, you know, there's not at all. But I think the main thing, especially in a world where we are striving to be more diverse to drive diversity of thought and more inclusive. You know, we just need to give a little bit more thought to those types of things. Yep.

Leighann Lovely 20:59

No. Now, you had mentioned a little bit Shannon, especially you and you had mentioned a little bit about being very successful at driving that cultural change. Mm hmm. Tell me a little bit more about that.

Shannon Karels 21:14

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's something I definitely learned a lot of this from Kathy and our time together, too. But, you know, a lot of what she taught me was the importance of listening, the importance of building relationships, and, and I knew, I knew that was always important to me early on in my career, I knew that it wasn't going to be me getting it all done, it was all about the people around you, that help. And so when I started leading plants, I just, my team was so important to me. And I wanted them to be successful. And so I spent a lot of time doing little things that would bring us together and we would always have each other's backs. And, you know, I would get we would get to know each other. Every quarter, we would do a an ops luncheon. And I would force them to play some game where we all got to know each other, you know, tell something about yourself. Nobody knows. Or we did one where they had a draw out a piece of paper a bunch of questions and in answer the question, and just silly things like that. But I felt it really important that the more we know each other as people and less as our jobs, the more successful we will be. And driving that type of culture change is really the first and final step of driving any type of business transformation. It's all about trust and respect for each other.

Leighann Lovely 22:32

You're, you're so right. And it's funny that you use the word I would force them to. Because in the beginning, it's always they walk in, gotta know, you got to play this game. But at the end of it, everybody always walks out with a smile on their face. Yeah. And as you see that cultural change. And again, I'm not speaking of somebody who's driven that cultural change, I'm speaking from somebody who's experienced that cultural change happening around me and being one of the people who's seeing it, you know, with my co workers and going, Wow, I'm feeling so much happier, because people are really starting to get along, and I'm getting along with people. But you know, you walk in going, Oh, another one of these games. Yeah, I have to do this. You know, guess who this is with these deep. But as it happens, you're going this is this is fun, that I'm enjoying this I in you know, and you do you get to know people you get to. And the more you get to know people, the more you like people, the more you want to do better at the company, the more you're invested in the company, and the harder it is to leave the company. And I always bring it back to retention because I'm a recruiter, I'm in HR. You know, companies always ask how, you know, hey, how do I hire somebody? How do I train somebody? How do I get these people to stay? And it always for me comes back to retention. And what you said is, is that's it culture happy? retained?

Shannon Karels 24:01

Yeah, that's, and that's not to say, Leighann, that it's all you know, I say this a lot. But it's not all rainbows and unicorns every day, right? Like, Oh, of course. You know, Kathy, and I drive a high level of accountability and high expectations of our teams. You know, we set those we set, we set that up front, it's not a moving target. It's, here's here's the expectations, I expect you to meet them if you can't, let's have a discussion about it. It's not, you know, this dictatorship, but it is, it's a very fine combination of that structure of accountability and relationships that drive performance.

Leighann Lovely 24:35

Right, happier employees stay. And if you create genuine relationships with your employees, even the worst company will keep employees and I'm not saying that you are have bad companies, but employees follow great leaders. They I mean, and if you can be a great leader and you leave that company Many employees will start going, I wonder if they have an open position where she went. I mean, it's, it's just human nature to want to follow the light. And if you, if you are the light, then you will be followed because you have a tendency to create and spread your light around. It's just that's, that's human nature.

Kathy Miller 25:23

So positive relationships are so powerful. Yes, they are everywhere in life, including the workplace.

Leighann Lovely 25:29

Yep, absolutely. And, and it's, it's interesting what one negative person can do in an environment, and how quickly that can spread. So it's, you know, sorry, um, I like I have a tendency to go off on tangents.

Shannon Karels 25:47

Like, you're okay.

Leighann Lovely 25:49

I am a complete and total nerd when it comes to talking about HR and culture and all that good stuff. Okay. So tell me about ops sisters, you know, I don't want to spoil the book, I want people to, you know, read the book, I'm excited to read the book. So tell me a little bit of the the key highlights and what people are going to get out of this, not only from learning more about you, but you know, you talk about it being kind of a lean manufacturing guide. So tell me a little bit more about it.

Shannon Karels 26:19

Yeah, and ancestors is really, the book is really a subset of ancestors. So Kathy, and I found it off sisters, actually, after we wrote the book. And the name really signifies us. I mean, we really are, you know, sisters at heart and these operational leaders. So we wanted to inspire other up sisters to come up through this industry. So that's how that all started. And, and app sisters in itself is, you know, we wanted to expand on the book, and take our learnings really, from what we went through whether it was through lean methodology, cultural change, being women in leadership, coaching people, we wanted to take all of that and expand that to continue to teach outside of just the book. So we, that's really a lot of what we do. And our and everything is listed on our website. So we'll do anything from we're doing training on meaningful lean transformations, we offer coaching from any leaders in manufacturing, from team leaders all the way up to VPS. And we really just want to work with companies that need help and a transformation in terms of you using meet lean methodologies and implementing inclusive cultures. So that's what ops Sisters is about, in the book touches on all of those things in some way as part of the story. So we're really pulling from our experience in a real world situation, and trying to transfer that out and expand that to more people in the world.

Kathy Miller 27:49

It's not a real prescriptive book, you know how most business books are, these are the three things you must do, or the five things you must do. It's, it's our story, and there's a lot of learnings in it. But stories are so powerful, right? Because people can see themselves in the characters. So I got an email the other night from a lady who tracked me down who I don't know, and she said, I got your book as a gift. And I'm a quality manager at a plant. And I just laughed and cried through the whole book, because I could really feel those experiences, many of which are similar, you know, to what I've had, so just thanking us. And so, you know, we really want to teach through touching people's hearts, right, and letting them know that by having meaningful relationships and creating vision and mission and purpose for people beyond their own individual goals is really what gets results and, you know, makes the experience so much worth having.

Shannon Karels 28:53

Well, and people can learn from some of our mistakes, maybe to

Kathy Miller 28:57

accelerate the journey for others.

Leighann Lovely 29:01

That's great. You know, the best way to learn is through that of other people well, or from your own mistakes, but why learn from your own mistakes when you can learn from that of other people. And, you know, you're offering such an amazing life story, life journey, in so many ways. That's amazing.

Shannon Karels 29:25

Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 29:27

So we are almost at time. And before we get there, I would love to ask you this the question of the season. So if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why? Kathy, why don't you go first

Kathy Miller 29:48

So it's that point that I already told you. You know, if we separate the being a working mom, right and working through all of those things that that was is a big deal as well. But from a purely career standpoint, it was when I got called in and was put on a special assignment. And like I said, I really did not want to go on a special assignment, I wanted to go the traditional path. And here I had the opportunity to learn from giants in the industry. And it changed the whole trajectory of my career. So that was my pivotal moment was being open and saying, Okay, I'm going to do this non traditional thing you're asking me to do. And, you know, this book wouldn't be here had it not been for that moment, and someone taking a chance on me to try something different and non traditional.

Leighann Lovely 30:39

And sometimes fate steps in and makes decisions. Yep. Makes your decision for you. Yeah, yes. And what about you, Shannon?

Shannon Karels 30:50

I was a, that was a little bit different. And and I say this, with all honesty, not just because Cathy's, you know, my friend and business partner, but mine was when I started working with Kathy and our sensei, Rick Harris, and I had already been exposed to lean a little bit and really believed it was the way to run these manufacturing businesses, if you can do it, right. And it wasn't it yes, they taught me the lean methodology and the Lean tools, which I then took on to be able to successfully run other manufacturing facilities. But they taught me about what it is to be a true leader. And, you know, I was pretty young in my career. And I had, I would say, I was relatively high, strong and very high demand type of an individual with very high expectations for myself and everybody around me. But I learned how to be you know, take that and not be an individual contributor and really be the leader, I wanted to be in that moment where I was allowed to participate on that team and help drive that transformation is what changed my career for me.

Leighann Lovely 31:54

And that's awesome. That's and to continue to work with, you know, somebody who you feel has been a pivotal, you know, person in your in your life is is a gift. Absolutely. Yeah. So thank you very much for sharing that. I thank you both for coming on and talking with me today. You You both have truly an amazing story. And an obviously it is a gift that the the two of you came into each other's lives at the time that you did, because you have obviously lifted each other up to make each other more successful throughout your careers and you continue to be well, like sisters. That's right. So again, thank you so much for your time today.

Kathy Miller 32:36

Thank you, Leighann

Leighann Lovely 32:38

Kathy Miller

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/kathy-miller-mapp-mba-b32a2839

Personal Website - lnkd.in/efKVZEDw

Shannon Karels

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/shannon-karels-00a7782

Co-Authored - Steel Toe and Stilettos

Website - opsisters.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

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Not only is this guest an amazing inspiration, a brilliant and beautiful soul, she also has an amazing story of how she ended up at a great company helping others find their voice to inspire others.

Hanna Paul of Ideawake, joins us for a great conversation!

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann. Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us. We have an amazing guest with me today, Hanna Paul. She has made a career change going from the healthcare industry, to tech startup company. So I'm thrilled to talk with her today. Hanna Paul is a trained occupational therapist who jumped into a startup industry after exposure in the tech scene in the San Francisco Bay Area. Hannah saw how technology was being used to solve problems and disrupt the status quo of how services and products are accessed and experience. She has worked at a variety of startups leading clinical research trials for a VR company to serving as the Director of Customer happiness in telemedicine a catalyst and lover of change. Hannah currently serves as the customer success and implementation manager at a Milwaukee based startup idea week, who is focused on innovation idea week is essentially an online suggestion box on steroids. Change is the only constant in life. And companies have to be open and evolving and growing in order to make it in this day and age. Welcome, Hannah, I am so excited to have you here and talk with me today. Why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself.

Hanna Paul 02:28

Be glad to and thank you so much for having me. My name is Hanna. I'm the Customer Success and Implementation Manager at Ideawake by day and by night I'm Hanna banana having a good time on the town in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. My day job, I'm really much actively involved in working with different companies that choose to work with Ideawake and powering their innovation programs. So I work to consult with them to figure out best practices for them to be able to tap into the creative mindset of their already existing work workforce, either on the frontlines or in manager positions, we really want to utilize the individuals that are closest to their products to see ways that have strategies and solutions for bridging gaps and improving employee engagement and returning costs and revenue. So I get to be that person that shows them how to use the product, and use it to their advantage that they can get the most out of it and make innovation and innovative changes to their existing products or creating new ones.

Leighann Lovely 03:32

That's fun to be able to actually help the people see how those tools work. And yeah, that's a fun position to be in. But Hanna, you you actually have your Bachelor's of Science in Occupational Science and a Masters of Science in Occupational Therapy. So tell me, you know, the journey of how you found the role that you're in now, you know, at Ideawake it's very much of a industry change.

Hanna Paul 04:05

Yeah, absolutely, nothing in life is linear and get ready for a loop de loop ride because that is my journey. So I graduated from the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee in occupational therapy in 2016. And there's five ot schools within the Milwaukee area. And that means that there's a lot of saturation when it comes to OT's being here, and I knew it would be difficult for me to get a job at a location in which I felt fulfilled in being in setting wise. And so I chose to do a travel therapy contract. And that led me to getting a state license in California and in Oregon. And the plan was to travel the whole West Coast and do three month contracts at different cities and just kind of go along with it. I ended up having my first interview with a travel staffing company and landed on In a town called San Rafael, which is about 40 miles south of San Francisco. And so in April of 2017, I made the journey across the United States from Wisconsin to San Francisco. Found a sublet with a married couple there and moved there knowing absolutely nobody. But I was just ready for a change a culture shock, culture shock for myself, even within the United States and started my occupational therapy career in San Francisco.

Leighann Lovely 05:32

Small town girl moving and well, you know, small town, I suppose. Compared to San Francisco. Definitely. Yeah.

Hanna Paul 05:39

Yeah, absolutely. Definitely a different scene. Then Milwaukee, grew up in Appleton originally and then was on an often Milwaukee for for school, from 2011 to 2017 16. But yeah, San Francisco was calling my name. And little did I know, it was the place I needed to be to discover these these wings that I have. And I started to really see while I was working as an occupational therapist there, that the health care system is a model that is a mean machine and making money on sick people. And the day to day was was tough. I was involved in a lot of situations where I was being pressured to be involved in Medicare fraud. And I didn't see that as being fulfilling for myself, I loved my patients, but I didn't love the productivity. I didn't love the documentation side of things. I didn't go to school to become a documentation just I came to went to school to change people's lives and get them feeling better, and not make decisions based on what their insurance was and got the best reimbursement. So being there, I, specifically in the Bay Area, got exposed to the tech scene. And I saw the innovation happening there. I saw how the different companies were treating their employees so well and meeting their hierarchy of needs that they could get the most productivity out of them and creativity. And I wasn't getting that in health care. I wasn't getting mental health support. I wasn't getting reimbursements for my travel costs, and having just different things like buying meals and just life balance. And so I wanted to be on the innovative side of healthcare, I wanted to be on the preventative side of healthcare. And so I while I was still an OT, I switched to part time and dipped my toe and working in some startups, one being a virtual reality company called corona Labs, which uses virtual reality to use the visual system to help people combat chronic pain. And I ran the clinical research trials there. And then I did product demonstration for another startup called a site, which was a CCTV set of glasses that allows people with visual impairments to be able to see different things from a distance do contrast, hyper zoom, things like that. So I began sort of industry journey, then, wow,

Leighann Lovely 08:02

that's those are really amazing, different, different tools that that can people can utilize and use for. Well, health. I mean, yeah, simple. So from there, you know, you've obviously made your way back here to the greatest city in the world.

Hanna Paul 08:23

Yes, the greater mafia. How did tell how Did someone get you back from California to Milwaukee? Is the real question, right? Yes, well, that was an offer to go back to school for a PhD and my goodness, my program chair, he can spell excuse my French shit on a stick. And he was like, well send you to Switzerland. And you can do part of your doctoral program there. And so I didn't know what I wanted to do. Because I knew the OT job, I was burnt out. And I done it for two years. And I wanted to be in tech. And this was the next next best thing. And so I said yes to it, and eventually gave that nine months. And so that that also was that point, I felt that feeling I thought with ot were just I didn't light up in the morning, I felt dread going to work. And I didn't want to spend four years of my life writing a 400 page paper to prove a point. I can prove a point pretty easily without having to do that. We need people to be in those roles. But that's just not who I am. Right. So I quit the Ph. D program didn't know what I wanted to do, and started networking in Milwaukee area. And this is a story I do love to tell it's been a huge catalyst into what led me to where I'm at now, is I went to a networking event with new Waukee and the shift and they had a speaker there who asked the room, how many people here are doing anything with their degree? And 10% of the room raised their hand. And I had been telling myself this story that I couldn't be anything but an occupational therapist for my whole life and that there's no way I'm gonna be able to get another job other than ot I knew that's not where I'm going to be able to change healthcare was on the current model, I needed to be on the preventative side, I need to change the status quo. And so that was when I realized my skill set went way beyond just what occupational therapy was. And so I landed a job at a local startup here and virtual care for telemedicine. And in customer success, I did that for two years, when a lot of great things learn, I did not want to become a software engineer, I learned I not want to be a social media, individual content strategist, I knew I love customers, I knew I loved leadership. And I knew I loved being on the strategy side of a company. And so got an invitation to check out idea awake. And that is the long winded story of how I ended up at my current role.

Leighann Lovely 10:42

And that's, awesome. And you're so right, the amount of people that I talk with, that have have a degree in specific industry that they're in unless they are accountants, unless they are doctors, unless they are, you know, very specific to something that they have to have in order to do what they're doing. And that being those very niche industries, those doctors were you can't be a brain surgeon unless you went to school to be a cure, oh, my God, I hope somebody doesn't work on my brain if they don't have education and know how to do surgery on my brain. Same with my accountant, I'm not going to go to, you know, an accountant, if they don't have a lot of years and or an education in accounting. But when it comes to those transferable skills from those degrees, if you want to do something else, we're from so many other degrees, who decided or who said that an 18 year old coming out of high school has to make a decision for the rest of their life on what they want to be when they're in their 20s, their 30s, their 40s their 50s? Mm hmm. It's interesting that at that young age, we have to make a decision. What do you want to be when you grow up?

Hanna Paul 11:56

Yeah, what and no one ever tells you like, you hear that you hear that statistic of the average career change number for people is seven, but no one tells you hey, that might be when you're 19, that might be when you're 20, that might be might do six career changes in your 20s No one tells you when those things are gonna come, it's more of this metaphorical idea outside of ourselves, when the time comes, that we're actually not happy with what we're doing. Right. We don't think this is the right time. And then we have different factors that come in when it comes to families and moving and children and, and I don't have those different limitations. And I actually don't want to use one limitation just was different gifts in life that I have to use as navigate. But yeah, it's a it's an interesting mindset that we have in America that we make you at 18 have to decide on a career and then think you have to be in that the rest of your life.

Leighann Lovely 12:49

Right? And what really, what is the most important aspect of what we learn in each career? Is it the technical skills? Or is it the soft skills that you gain? And again, everybody that I talked to is like, well, it's the soft skills, because those are things that you learn over time. Whereas the technical skills they can they can be taught if you have the capacity to learn. And there are very few people that I have ever met in my entire life that don't have the capacity to learn. I would say that, I mean, there's almost nobody, everybody, no matter. And it's different. I mean, obviously, it's different for everybody and the capacity in which they learn. But everybody has the capacity to learn technical skills, soft skills are a little bit more difficult to learn if you struggle with certain things. If you are scared to death to talk in front of people, that's going to be a major thing to overcome. You're probably never be a public speaker. Then again, I'm sure somebody out there is going nope, nope, that's that. I became a public speaker and I was, you know, anyways, there's always there's always one out there saying no by overcame anyways. Yeah, it's the thing that, you know, when you're at that age, when you're 18, you're 19 Nobody ever complains that oh, they're not, they can't do this job because we're not capable of training them on the technical skills. It's always they're so young, they're so green. They're a little rougher on the edges when it comes to the politics in the office. That's just a matter of, they need exposure. And as you've gotten exposure to the world, you get better at that stuff. Which is what you can't be you can't be an elected official. You can't be president until you're like What 45 or something like that. Part of the reason is because of life experience. They want somebody who's been around the block. And I may be wrong on the age of that but so don't quote me on that. Anyways, so you made your way back to the Milwaukee market. Now you you are now with Ideawake So let's really get into what does idea week do? What is the the the nuts and bolts of the company? What do they do for? You know, for other organizations?

Hanna Paul 15:12

Yeah. So idea week is an idea management software platform. It's a platform that collects ideas. And we work with 14 different verticals, from manufacturing, to health care to insurance finance. And what we want to do is is to empower companies to have innovation programs. Evolution, as you said in the intro is so important when it comes to companies making it in this day and age. And so what we do is we give a voice to the employees and make it a fun process where they are being recognized for their ideas. We have five main reasons why people stop, we did a survey and last year that looked at what are the main reasons why somebody stops contributing ideas. And it's because the ideas fall in the black hole, they don't get recognition, they don't know where to share, they don't know how to share, and then fear of retribution from management for submitting those ideas. You know, we have a lot of us have that story, we had an idea and someone takes it. So where does the recognition get tracked. And so what our platform does is it has timestamps, it has proof of ownership, it has communication systems to let somebody know that their idea is being looked at that it's being evaluated that that the steering committees are being allowed to put a scorecard with it and rate it. And so what the whole system pretty much does is and I can kind of go from the customer journey is is each company will select challenges that they want to set up for their company, and we recommend to them might be how do we improve the patient discharge experience. And then the employees are given access to the platform. And it's very much like Facebook, where you submit an idea you can like you can vote, you can comment, you can take individuals and go, Hey, Jill, did you see this idea? What would be an awesome, we're just talking about this, let's add to this idea. And so you have this collaboration happening of employee engagement improving, you have different things coming to the table that you're not going to have in hire, hire an outside consultant come in and spend a year learning your product, when you've got people who know it right now what the needs are, and we're so close to it. And so what that does is it allows for camaraderie to build within a company, it allows people's voices to be heard to feel seen. And then what happens when the ideas go through the challenge. And you can put time, you can keep it open and have it be open all the time, like a box sitting in the office and you put a card in and they check it every once in a while. Or you can do timed challenges, which you're going to get much more engagement and ideas when it's timed. And so then once the challenge closes, different review teams, different stakeholders, decision makers will look at those ideas, they'll be able to sort them using our system with simple clicks of the button. Rather than having to sort them through and excel sheets and slack and Microsoft Teams and email and things being lost in the sauce. They're able to score those things and then select which ones are going to have the best ROI, which ones are going to be quick wins with big impacts that they can do what's going to be Low risk, low costs, and not much time to have to implement. But then they also can take the person who submitted that idea and go, Hey, we really liked this idea. We would love to give you time in your workday for you to implement this. And so they can go through three stages, we have a second service of ours called idea box, where it's an innovative, it's an accelerator, and that individually committed the idea if they want to, or a team can create a team that will go ahead and test that idea out how to pilot it, and then how to implement it and then show and demonstrate the value and actually putting that idea out there. But it also could be the regular departments, the business unit managers implementing those ideas. That's the great thing is personalized to each business. And so at the end of the day, it's a really awesome tool for collecting ideas, continuous improvement, continuous improvement, hackathons, different things like that we're able to power on our platform.

Leighann Lovely 19:26

That's, that's great. And I would assume that this has to help with obviously employee engagement. But you know, that employee that sits back and thinks, Well, you know, I have a solution for this or I have an idea. And that person that that never gets heard and then gets frustrated and eventually leaves because they feel like they're just never been heard. So the overall employee retention at companies, when a company implements something like this, because now all of a sudden you feel more valued As an employee, because you have a voice for the first time, and the company's actually taking, you know, an interest in what the employees are actually saying. And I've been at companies plenty of times where you know, as an employee, you can see what's broken, where maybe upper management or stakeholders or who, people who are not on the ground level, they, they don't see that every day, because they're not in it every day. And it's not that they're, they're not trying to pay attention. It's just that they don't, they're not walking the floor on a regular basis, noticing the things that as an employee, you do notice. And when you go to a manager and say, hey, you know, I noticed this, that manager, that mid level manager may not also also doesn't have the authority to go up and say, hey, you know, we think this done gives everybody that equal. And in my right, the equal playing field to be, hey, I have an idea, or I noticed this, and I think that this might work in order to fix this idea. That I mean, is that equal playing field? Everybody has the same right to be able from the janitor to the reception to the manager to anybody?

Hanna Paul 21:20

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I love that you said janitor, because we have a blog about how Flaming Hot Cheetos was pitched by a janitor that worked at the Cheeto ended, or lilies industry. I don't know what the parent company name is. But it was a janitor that came up with Flaming Hot Cheetos, he went and made an in recipe and made the Cheetos had people try it. And that's how we have Flaming Hot Cheetos, you know, it can be anybody.

Leighann Lovely 21:45

Right. And that's, that's great. And you never know where that diamond in the rough will come from. Because, you know, for so long, we assume that the position title that you hold is where you are in the hierarchy of the company. And that I think that's wrong. Every position at a company is vitally important. And sometimes the people who are the quietest are the people who are the smartest, they just may be introverts and aren't comfortable with a public forum, or aren't comfortable with the idea or coming forward with that. By giving them a platform like this, they can do it quietly,

Hanna Paul 22:28

They can be loudly at the same time to because they can write and do research and show supplemental materials as to why their idea has meaning. Yeah, and I love that I love the idea of you sharing, you know, for the people that are quiet, that they just aren't ones to speak up, we all have different gifts. And I think back when I was in health care, when I was seeing all these issues, I didn't even think to even I didn't even waste my time as I would actually put it, it felt like a waste of time to put ideas together to take down a healthcare system where there's clearly so many issues, what I'm gonna write an email and then send it to them. Whereas this, it's actually being shown that they want to hear ideas and a huge thing we briefed them on is we want them to tie their challenges towards business unit goals. And so then you can use the business unit goals as a reason for why this idea is so important, because it's going to lead to the strategic goals of our company. And I can't tell you based on my whole career, I don't know what the business goals were all of all the other places I've worked at, I have no idea. But if I had known that, and then given an opportunity to engage in something, and I feel like I could have improved the lives of my co workers the lives of my patients, mostly, but also administrators too. But I never felt like my voice was ever going to be heard within the game of labels of who gets to have a seat at the table here. Like you said, everyone gets a seat at the table or an opportunity to try to sit there.

Leighann Lovely 24:02

Right. And that's great. It is because especially at the larger organizations where people sometimes feel like numbers, and they feel like their voice is drowned out by hundreds of other employees, or you have a company that's got multiple locations, and you have no idea of tracking what is happening from one place to the other. This is a great way to create collaboration and create communication among everybody, everybody who wants to participate. So it's I mean, this is just an amazing so without giving obviously any confidential information away. Can you tell me anything about you know, one of the most exciting things that you've worked on other than the Flaming Hot Cheetos? That one would have been awesome to work?

Hanna Paul 24:57

Well, I mean, that wasn't us, but just like, right In general, but yeah, I mean, I would love to take, like, you guys. Yeah, again, it's cool. So I've been with Ideawake since November. So still fairly new. But I can tell you about a few different companies we're working with, you know, top ones Epson on Sirius XM, HP, and then some health care one Sanford Health, OSF, advocate Aurora, here based in the Milwaukee area. And I think what the most, the project that I personally am really excited about right now is specific to COVID. And it's trying to find ways to save time for the nurses in their day, that with ideas so that they don't have as much of burnout, and that they can provide the care that they need to, to the patients that they're taking care of. So that's one where it's, you know, there's human engaged challenges here, where we're trying to impact lives beyond just let's try to improve this product, let's try to improve this productivity line or save on scrap metal, you know, it's impacting people's lives is the main thing here. So that's been one of my favorite challenges to be a part of, and, and talking about creative solutions for trying to do team building exercises, and, and things like that. So I love the idea of building culture through innovation as well.

Leighann Lovely 26:17

Right? Yeah. And that's, that's awesome. You know, I we go on about the cool thing, like the Flaming Hot Cheetos, but you forget that there's amazing other projects like that of, you know, the human side, the figuring out the culture, the that that's an awesome project, I mean, that you should be thrilled to working to be working on something like that. So typically, the size of companies, I mean, are you working on? You listed off some pretty large organizations? Are you usually engaging very large companies? Do you have some smaller companies that come in and say, Hey, we've got, you know, 30 employees? And we'd like to, you know, put this out there to see if we can get them engaged, you know, what, what typically is the size?

Hanna Paul 27:03

Yeah, that's a great question. So, we range from as little as about 100 employees upwards to I think our most is 165,000, there is no maximum on it, it's how many users you want to have engaged on the platform. But we usually have the minimum be 100. And then it can be separated out into departments and locations. So when you get to those really big enterprises, you know, maybe you want to focus specifically on HR, you want to focus specifically on it, you can segment them out within a community. So you can have multiple different groups so that you can be gaining ideas in different areas, because let's be real, there's so many different parts to a well run machine, that it's not just, you know, one big thing, and if we have too many ideas, and then the bandwidth of being able to get really selective and targeted about what we're trying to get out of the challenge can get lost. And so the beautiful thing is, is that we're able to do that we're able to provide a system that the entire enterprise, if its massive, can, you know, take it as an undertaking, or we can go as small as 100. And look at all those users and participants from that, and that company to be able to contribute to the challenge statements and innovation program.

Leighann Lovely 28:15

Great. So I want to talk a little bit about the employee side of that, you know, I would assume that employees are, you know, after they understand, after they understand how it works. And after they understand what's you know, what it's all about? I would assume that there's some pretty reasonable buy in some pretty good buy in with this platform. Do you follow up? And kind of do a little bit of study, I guess, on what the employees feedback is what they feel, you know, how they feel it went? And if they felt that there was value in it?

Hanna Paul 28:50

Yeah, absolutely. Recently, just this week, we had a meeting with one of our customers, and they did a survey with their employees to see how they enjoyed the the platform and things like that. And they shared how they really, really enjoyed being able to feel like their voices were heard, and that they could be a part of something bigger than themselves. There's different things when it comes to you know, software and how we can make the user experience improved. And we're always making those software we'll never be obese, I think anybody battles so that user experience is so important for us. So we want to know where we need feedback to improve it so that it's simple and very easy for you to be able to engage in it and, and want that continued engagement, you know, it can become one of those things where you get maybe not as excited by it, you know, a year down the road, not something we've experienced, but just more so we want to continue to have people be actively involved in the challenges and one of the ways we do that is by offering prizes and gamification in our system. So prizes could be anything from monetary or non-monetary work could be an Amazon gift card for submitting an idea. Or it could be vacation days or lunch with the boss or lunch with the CEO or extra time to work on a Project and implement it, we really want to have people be inspired by the opportunity to contribute to something like I said, bigger than themselves. And we can do that through prizes, both with recognition of just simply a shout out, or like I said, the monetary stuff, too, we know that everyone's got different tax brackets that they got to be in. So we have different suggestions for things like that. But from the employee side, they really do enjoy the fact that they have a voice and they're being heard, and that their employers are taking the time to want to, to learn from them. That's another really big thing. And it makes it be from this hierarchical, you know, system to more of this wheel where we're kind of dancing in different spinning spaces. Whereas you may never have been able to talk to this person, because you're here and they're way up here. And now all of a sudden, you're in a lunchroom with them and talking through your idea. And all of a sudden you have this creativity and his passion pouring out of you that you didn't maybe even know had within you. And that's one of the coolest things I think that we get to see.

Leighann Lovely 31:08

You know, it's interesting that you, you mentioned prizes, that when when you could walk up to somebody and give them a gift. And they're like, well, thank you, thank you. But when you label it as a prize, all of a sudden, it becomes much more like, Oh, yes, I get a prize for this. And I, it's so weird. I don't know why as humans, if you dangle a carrot on the end of a string and say, Hey, if you do x, you get this. And for some reason, people just get really, really excited at the idea that, hey, if I participate, and then once you get them engaged, I'm assuming that they see what a great opportunity this is. And it doesn't have to be monetary value. Yeah, it a cup of coffee. Again, I know in my younger days of when I was entering into the workforce, the idea of sitting down with the CEO of a company, the CEO of my company was extremely thrilling. At the same time, it made me so nervous, I thought that it was gonna lose my stomach. I mean, it's just those those things are very exciting opportunities for people to one be involved, but at the same time be heard. Because there's so many people out there that are so unbelievably brilliant, but they haven't had the opportunity to, to show that yet. Like the janitor, and the and I keep going back to that, because I just think it's awesome. Great example. It really is. It really is. You know, that's it's like the movie, what was the movie Good Will Hunting. I mean, he was what put it trying to put himself through school, you know, being a being a janitor at a at a college, and there you are a diamond in the rough. There are hundreds of 1000s of them out there that will never be discovered, because they're not given the opportunity, or, you know, a voice to be heard. And it sounds like this is the mechanism for those voices to be heard.

Hanna Paul 33:16

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It is. And that's, that's the great, greatest part of this. And there's there's this shift going on in our society, in our culture, when it comes to what, what leads to a job. You, you go to Google, you go to LinkedIn, you go to Twitter, they're hiring people without degrees. They they're looking at your experience and looking at what are you good at What lights your soul on fire? What pours out of you, when you can't, you can't stop? It's changing. And at the end of the day, it's coming down to who are you as a person? What are your soft skills? What are your hard skills, but what is it that is your unique gift, and it doesn't need to be that you have a four year degree on you and grant it education is great. I'm not here to say that education isn't something you know, for, you know, worthwhile, but you can go to a software boot camp for six months at the age of 19 now, and go get trained as a software engineer and end up with a six figure salary at the age of 19. It's getting much more like trade school in the sense of training where we're getting really specific to what people want to learn. And that pressuring them into this one specific funnel of how is it to be successful in life? Oh, it's a degree. No, it's different now. And and that was one of the things that was hard. The hardest thing for me when I left San Francisco was what do I want to do? I have all these choices. And I my mom said to me, she goes Hang on. You have no idea how much of a gift that is for you to be able to say that as a woman that you have so many options to choose from. And that was a way for me to get the cup You know, half full and not half empty at all, there's so many choices, I don't know what to do, it's, I'm standing on the successes of so many other women that fought for these rights to be able to say I can be anything I want to be, and I have no limitations, and I have a ceiling that I can break if I want to, I definitely am the type of individual, I'm the type of woman that 20 years ago, I wouldn't have made it, people wouldn't have been ready for me. But everyone's you know, shifting and moving around. And I love to see that people are in this great resignation that we're seeing already in, in the United States happening, they're going for what they want to do COVID made them look back on themselves and go, What is it that I want to do with my life, you know, it's an employee's market now, and people are really getting clear on where they want to spend my time. And companies have to think about that. And that's where ideas like is a great way for them to look at employee rent retention, that's the thing that they're really gonna have to consider, they're got to consider benefits, they're gonna have to consider allowing for new things to be done and given to improve the happiness of their employees. Because at the end of the day, life's about, you know, really enjoying being in the present moment. And, you know, the cultures that you're around and, and the stress and do situations where you're meeting these deadlines, and, and for what, you know, I always ask myself this question of if this role, you know, something were to happen to me, and I couldn't do my job, could somebody fill it? For me? The answer is, yes, we all get stuck in this mindset that if I'm not doing this, I'm not here, the world's gonna stop spinning, it's gonna keep spinning. So make sure you're spending it in a place where you feel supported, seen heard, and that you have somebody who sees your gifts and wants you to use them in your day to day

Leighann Lovely 36:52

You gave me goosebumps, everything that you were saying, because there has been an absolute shift, it excites me that there has been so much of a shift in the world to see and talk to people every day who will come to me, you know, obviously, I'm in in the staffing industry, my day job, night, you know, podcaster by night. But people come to me all the time and say, Listen, I don't I don't want to do this job anymore. I'm done with it. I'm, I'm burnt out. But I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. And I always ask them, Well, what skills do you have? What do you like to do? What gets your blood pumping in the morning at the idea of, well, if I could just do with that? And they're like, Wow, but I don't have the I've never done that before. I don't have the skills, you know, I technical skills to do that. And I look at them and go, have you ever applied or talk to somebody in that industry? Have you ever started networking with people who are in that industry, because tackling you know, the technical skills can be trained. Again, I go back to unless you want to be a brain surgeon, okay, you can't just one day wake up and say I'm going to be a brain surgeon. But there are so many skills that are transferable. And there are so many people right now who are saying, I will hire somebody who has the soft skills, and is willing to put in the effort, if they will just simply come in every day, put forth the effort, and they have the soft skills there. I will train them on everything else. Because there are so many jobs open and so many companies suffering right now, to just get people to show up. This is the time to anybody out there listening, if you're not happy in the job that you currently have, you have the ability to be happy. You just have to take the initiative and figure out what it is that you want to be when you start adulting.

Hanna Paul 38:55

Yeah. And adulting is never ending, right?

Leighann Lovely 38:59

If you if you're going to a job that you hate every day, right now is the time to figure out okay, what do I love? Or if if it's that you do love what you do, but you hate the culture, then you need to find a new job in that area. Because if a company right now has got that bad of culture and they're not fixing it, they're never going to

Hanna Paul 39:21

And that's an enablement on your part as well for the status quo to that way. That's a huge thing. I see so many people so many of my friends, they're spending their times and their evening hours complaining about work and I just sat by it because that's not how it should be.

Leighann Lovely 39:36

No. And right I mean, there are in companies right now are paying for quality people. They are it's an employee market. You said it, we could all say it until we're blue in the face. You can go in as long as you are not demanding the world. You can't go in and say hey, I was making, you know, 20 bucks down the street. Now I want 30 Okay, it's unreasonable. You can't go in and gouge an employee, you go in and you tell them this is how many years of experience I have. This is what I'm able to do for you. I just want to be paid fair.

Hanna Paul 40:08

I actually disagree a little bit here. And I'll just go, yes,

Leighann Lovely 40:12

no, I know. I know. But no, if you were severely underpaid at a company, yes, I totally agree. There are some circumstances where people are being severely underpaid. But when I limit, especially women, I'm just saying that, you know, if you're, you shouldn't be, you know, basically gouging. You know, an employer on purpose, because you know, you can, it's, it's about fair, all around. Because what's going to happen is, if you do that, there is going to be, there's going to be a shift, there's going to be a balance, and unfortunately, it's going to come back around. And if you are being way overpaid for a job, because they have to hire you right now. It could come back to bite you. One day, I'll just yeah, definitely

Hanna Paul 41:01

increase in salary doesn't always mean an increase in happiness, you got to look at the benefits, you got to look at the culture, you got to look at how they treat every single employee, if they give you benefits for hybrid working, travel, PTO, all of it, and leading by example, look at looking at the leaders. That's that's really important to see how do they live their lives? And are they understanding that there's different types of people because each company needs people that work to live and people who also live to work? It's just it's a beautiful balance,

Leighann Lovely 41:29

right? Yep. Well, we are almost at time. But I have one more question the question of the season. And you probably have actually a couple of examples of these just from talking to talking. But I have a lot to say, if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. When would that be and why?

Hanna Paul 41:55

Yes, it was meeting a patient of mine, and I can't use her first name. So we'll call her Jen. I met Jen and California. And Jen story changed my entire life, not just my career. And it made me see the world not through rose colored glasses, that I have a purpose here. And it is to spread light, and to also spread light and shine light, where people are lacking in putting humans first. And that their systems and processes in place that are keeping things the way that they are where people are hurting. And so this patient made me see that I'm here to make change. And I'm here to do it in a graceful way. I'm not here to take a you know, grenade and throw it and boom, let's see what catastrophe we can throw up here. But how can we work together, all of us with systems we already have in place to make the world a better place. And I think it's a great place. You know, there's a lot of beautiful things happening in this day and age. But that patient without going into it changed my life. And what I wanted to do, and I'm just felt this inner power, inner drive is intuition. screaming at me and going, you are not here to be at the bottom, you are here to be with people that are influencers and here to make change and and make people feel safe with change, excited about change. And so I would say that was it. And that's when I was being around the tech scene, I knew I needed to step out of my current position. Because I wasn't able to have a voice there specifically, where I wanted to impact people in all industries, not just one.

Leighann Lovely 43:50

May I ask you a simple question? Yes, I'll try to get a simple answer. Was it something she said? Or was it something she did?

Hanna Paul 43:58

It was the way it was her story of how she grew up. And what happened to her as a child and as a teenager, and her not having the right support and love from her family. And hearing that whole story and how it played impacted the rest of her life where she was then disabled at the age of 30 for the rest of her life when she could have lived a life much more fully, much more healthy, and actually lost her this week. But I'm so glad she's not in pain anymore. And she's not suffering and her family. And I've remained very close. And I told her the last thing I said to her was, you changed my life. And we said we loved each other and that goodbye. And I always called her girly. And that's how I said goodbye. I'll miss you girly.

Leighann Lovely 44:49

Thank you very much for sharing that. It's amazing how, as humans, a simple story can impact us in such a profound way. Yeah, obviously was beyond words. But that is the human connection, isn't it?

Hanna Paul 45:04

Yeah, we're here for a certain amount of years. And I find so many people getting caught up in the the to dues the, the number the comparisons, and I just want to remind them, we're here to smile every once in a while and, and have fun. And I love to inspire the inner child and children, everybody, especially adults, and if I can remind one person to smile on a day, that's my mission, you know, I love what I do at Ideawake. But I use it as my channel to be able to impact as many lives as I can through positivity. And so it's, it's that patient that I wish I could give her that world, I wish I could have given that world to her, but I couldn't, it was too late. And so I'm wanting to prevent and save others from a potential life like that. And that they can empower be feel empowered to make life whatever they want it to be.

Leighann Lovely 45:57

Well, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on today. And if somebody wants to reach out to you, how would they go about doing that?

Hanna Paul 46:07

Yeah, I would love to hear from you. A few different ways you can email me Hanna at ideawake, I do not have an h on the end of my name. So it's H A N N A @ ideawake.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn for Hanna, Hanna Paul. And then just another thing too is if you are looking for help with, you know career changes and things like that I love to help people with developing the personal brand and getting to that core of what is your purpose and what is your passion. So please reach out. I'd love to hear from you. And I hope you all have a beautiful, beautiful day wherever you are.

Leighann Lovely 46:42

Thank you so much. Thank you.

Leighann Lovely 46:45

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Contact Hanna Paul

E-mail – hanna@ideawake.com

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/hannapaul

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Growing Pains are hard, they don't get easier the bigger you get just more complex. So understanding your focus and what's most important is something that this guest can differently help with.

Andrew Bartlow, to put it simply, is wildly brilliant!

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's talk. HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann. Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us. Andrew Bartlow has 25 years of human resource and talent management experience at organizations across a wide spectrum of sizes, maturity stages and industries. He is the co author of scaling for success people priorities for high growth organizations. He has a master's degree from a top program in his field and has been CECP, SPHR, Six Sigma and Executive Coaching certified. Andrew leads Series B Consulting, which helps businesses to articulate their people strategy and accelerate their growth while navigating rapid change. He also founded People Leader Accelerator, which is the preeminent development program for startup HR leaders.

Leighann Lovely 01:56

Welcome Andrew, I am so glad that you agreed to talk with me today.

Andrew Bartlow 02:01

Leighann really happy to be with you.

Leighann Lovely 02:03

So tell me a little bit about your background. And a little bit about your book that you released in January of 2021. I'm excited to hear about this. (Correction to - Book Released in July 2021)

Andrew Bartlow 02:15

Oh, yeah, well, thanks a lot. I have about 25 years of Human Resources experience at companies very large to very small and everything in between and a bunch of places that you have probably heard of, and a bunch of places you probably haven't. I was really fortunate, lucky, successful exit from the last company where I was the head of HR as they went public and went through a number of different mergers and acquisitions and pulled my parachute a few years ago, started consulting and advising private equity backed companies venture backed companies doing some independent work. As I was getting started with that, I wrote my bucket list book that Columbia University published. So I was just really pleased with their support. And the topic of the book is well the name of it is scaling for success, people priorities for high growth organizations. So that's, that's pretty self-explanatory, but it's really about people and management practices. At high growth companies, you don't have to be a VC backed tech company for this stuff to be relevant. But there just isn't enough useful practical material out there. For smaller companies, it all tends to be the giant fortune five hundreds and that the good degrades. And the these big stories of big successful Googles and Netflix, how about the other 99.9% companies that that's what I was trying to speak to and help their HR leaders. So it's out in the world now it's on. It's in print, it's an audio, there's a Kindle version. The guy reading it wasn't me. But I'm thankful that, that it got turned into an audio book.

Leighann Lovely 04:17

That's awesome. And you you're so you're so completely right. You know, we all hear the great stories of these amazingly huge companies being so amazing and doing such amazing things. But that's not the main population of companies that are out there. The little guys need just as much attention and well, there's a heck of a lot more little guys or midsize guys than there are monsters of companies out there. So awesome. I have admittedly not gotten the opportunity to read it. But I have definitely I'm excited to read it and you know, take a look at it. So it's great. You work with companies and their leaders to help with some of the the growing pains that happen with growth in organizations? What are some of the main challenges that you see with those organizations you work with? And how does that vary from different sized companies that you do work with?

Andrew Bartlow 05:15

I think there's actually a lot of consistency across size. But across geography across industry, I mean that the management challenges are not super unique, it's really more how you deal with those management challenges and the resources that you have to deal with them. So that the common theme that I see may be stronger than anything, but the so what one theme may be stronger than anything, is lack of focus, lack of clarity. Too many people at too many organizations are trying to take on too much. And when you do take that on, so this is maybe you know, number two of what I what I see a lot of is lifting and shifting, I see a lot of application of somebody else's best practices, or whatever some leader heard about, in an article they read over the weekend, or a founder group that they're a part of, or whatever company they worked at last, it's a lot of lifting and shifting, with without really thinking through what's what's right for them.

Leighann Lovely 06:24

That completely makes sense. A, somebody reads a book and you know, small company, and they hear oh, this really worked at this company. But what works, that's everybody's different. And when you have such vastly different cultures, from one organization to the next organization, trying to take a, you know, round peg and shove it into a square hole is just not, it's not feasible, it's not effective. And you know, I've talked about this, with many other guests, just you trying to figure out the right solution to your particular problem, there's, there's typically not just some pre packaged, and that's again, why somebody like you coming in being able to identify what that is, work with somebody. And then you mentioned that, you know, one person trying to take on so many different things that at the same time, or you know, shifting from one role to another. And I've mentioned this to other people, HR people right now are so they're spread so thin, that it seems like often things get dumped on them. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, I completely forgot about that, I have to take care of that. And it's not just HR professionals. Right now we were at a we're at a threshold of having the least amount of employees at almost every company trying to do the most amount of work right now. So it's very interesting. And I'm assuming that you're dealing with that on a regular basis.

Andrew Bartlow 07:55

Well, heck come on, I'm a founder myself, of a couple of different enterprises. So I, I see this, and I feel this and I, I need to take more my own medicine, frankly. Yeah, have have more focus, have a clear plan. I might have coined this, I'm going to say it, you can move 30 things an inch, or three things a mile. Right? In most cases, it's it's more helpful that move those three things mile, right? And then like, what should you work on what best practice is best for you. Somebody else said this context is king. So you really have to understand your own unique situation to figure out what to do about it. And so you're buying somebody's book, or boy, I used to hate Mondays, because the CEOs that I would work for would come in on Mondays with all these brand new ideas of stuff that we had to do that they heard about over the weekend. And then it was up to me to try to figure out how to talk him out of it, or how to make it work at an organization that it was never really designed to work at.

Leighann Lovely 09:02

Right? I had similar experience. One of the sales leaders would come in with, oh, I have this new idea on how we can be better salespeople. And then the next week, it was the next flavor of I have the greatest idea of and it was like, Can we just get through one training session and figure one thing out before we've moved on to the next thing? Because Can we just master one skill and become really good at that one thing before we try to become semi good at everything,

Andrew Bartlow 09:36

Which comes back to focus, right? Right. And in a lot of small businesses just can't think of anywhere this isn't true. There's a lot of stuff that has to get done. Right and some and some of those things can be done just okay. You don't have to be great at everything. But but if you're trying to get if you're trying to help a business be successful, you should probably pick Few lanes, and really, I'm gonna make some metaphors here. But you should have the express lane, where certain really important strategic things, you make sure that those get happen, that those happen, and that those happen on a timeline and don't get pushed to the side when when emergencies come up.

Leighann Lovely 10:17

So as a founder of People Leader Accelerator, I am sure that leaders come to you with all different challenges small, large, has the complexity of this changed over time with the increase, you know, visibility into people's lives because of technology? Or is it you know, relative to the times that we're in,

Andrew Bartlow 10:37

I say that the noise and the risk of distraction has definitely increased, right across all all sorts of different companies, there's still this need to ruthlessly prioritize. So it's really easy to get caught up and all the stuff that we're able to hear about with our Apple news feed or whatever is popping up in our notifications, and that the availability of information can be really distracting. And it's an it's easy to fall in love with bright, shiny objects and keeping up with the Joneses and that sort of thing. But, you know, beyond beyond that sort of increased potential for distraction, I think they're I don't know that some of the common needs, some of the common themes are, you know, leaders transitioning in their role from doer, to manager to leader, I try to help HR people elevate from service provider to designer, from like, bringing the burger to designing the menu in the experience of the restaurant, and help leaders, whether they're a CEO of a investor backed company, or whether they're an HR leader, trying to figure out a founder relationship, help them navigate relationships with their stakeholders. So has has the complexity of the world around us changed that in a in a big way? I don't know. It's it's easier to be distracted. But it's all the same problem. It's, it's different flavors of ice cream, but it's all still ice cream.

Leighann Lovely 12:20

Right. So have you seen a change in what leaders need? And do you think that it's directly related, you know, possibly to the pandemic? I mean, obviously, as there's been a shift with people working from home, there's been a shift with the different things that employees need from those leaders. Have you seen that those leaders are needing more guidance from from you? I mean, I would assume that this is a whole new world for so many people.

Andrew Bartlow 12:58

Oh, yeah. Well, for for everybody, like there have been a whole lot of global pandemics. I guess the Spanish flu was 100 years ago, or, like that. And remote work is at this level is something new, and I highlight pay transparency as being one of the drivers of the great resignation. There's, there's a lot going on. That said, I'll key in on on the word that you use need, need versus want. And I talked earlier about the distractions and the the volume of information coming at us. So like, yes, there. There's a lot going on with pandemic compliance requirements, well, who can be tested and who can come to the office or not returned to the office and remote work and comp rates and great resignations, skilled skilled labor is impossible to find, or recruit or retain nowadays. So lots of talk about all that. But I encourage leaders to think hard about what they need. What should you be working on? What is most important for you right now, and less about getting, you know, tied up and again, that that flavor of the day, or the bright shiny object? So what's really critical for your business to figure out and then don't overcomplicate it. So with that in mind with you know, I'll I guess I'll give that as a long preamble and try to answer the question around like, what didn't leaders need? I think leaders need some reflection time. I think leaders need some headspace to get re grounded in what they're trying to accomplish. And their role and their goals and their purpose and try to avoid all that noise and distraction of ping we've got a new law about you know, pandemic stuff or paying somebody new resigned or like, okay, what are we trying to do? What are the handful of most important things We need to do to accomplish that. Let's get after it. But that's what leaders need. They need more focus more focus time.

Leighann Lovely 15:07

So how do you, I guess, do you assist them with? how that looks? That focus time? Do you guide them in? How does that focus time? become easier? How do you create and what do you focus on in order to hone in on the things that you need for your business?

Andrew Bartlow 15:31

Yeah, well, I hate to be clear, I am not a guided meditation yogi. Alright, to be clear, that's not my jam.

Leighann Lovely 15:40

Deep breathing now. Okay, now put your hands. No, yeah,

Andrew Bartlow 15:44

I do live in the Bay area of San Francisco. Metro. Like there's definitely a lot. Yeah. And hey, the whole mindfulness thing and meditation like that really works for some people, and some leaders and great Go, Go do what works for you, right? What, what I what I help with is pointing out some of those obvious things. Right? Pick out your three things, you're going to move for a while. I, you know, have have the freedom be able to be able to give the straight talk to the HR leaders and CEOs and investor groups that I work with to say like, where's the list of things that are most important? How about we write it down together? Oh, look, it's 47 items. But what's most important about it out of those things, there's a really nice model by Patrick Lencioni, prolific author, Five Dysfunctions of a Team. It's got a bunch of other books out there. The latest, I think, is the advantage, where he uses the six questions for clarity. How do we behave? What what is our purpose? What's most important right now? I won't list them. All right. That feels too much like a quiz that I walked myself into. But the the point is clarity. And so how do I help leaders? I am, I'm holding their hand walking with them. Doing org planning, doing prioritization. I help a lot of my HR clients build a people plan. What are the three most important things for however many most important things for your HR organization to deliver? And how closely aligned are those things to what's most important for your company? That's often a missed connection. And then do you have the right resources, vendors dollars headcount lined up to deliver against it? So it's, it's honestly not rocket science, it's just the the ultimate collection of a lot of stubbed toes and, you know, accidents through a 25 year career of working with a bunch of different companies. And, you know, doing some of that organizational planning, a lot of organizations, nobody's really tasked with doing that. And, and it fell to me over the years. And there are a couple different models out there, there's Eos, there's gazelles, there's a bunch of different consultants that will apply their framework. But I, you know, really focus pretty practically on, let's find a short priority list. And, you know, just walk through what execution looks like.

Leighann Lovely 18:25

And it's great that you, you know, kind of clarify that because, you know, you walk into somebody's office and half the time you see, either stacks of Oh, that's my to do pile, that's my done pile. And that is half the battle is figuring out what is the priority, what needs to get done now, what can I push off to later. And even when those lists are made, it's, it's never ending lists. So to help somebody in a senior role to even just to help HR personnel, me who constantly is looking at the next shiny object going, Oh, I can't wait to get to that when I haven't finished the project that I'm working on. You know, previously, it my husband yells at me about that all the time. You know, hey, what about you know, the, the crap that's laying on the table that you were supposed to finish two weeks ago? And I'm like, oh, yeah, but this one looks way much more fun. And he's like, Yeah, but um, to have somebody be able to say, Okay, wait, what's the most important thing to you? What's the most important thing to the business to grow the business to make sure everybody that's creating the product for your business is being provided for that. That's half the battle to keep that going. And then obviously, growing, and there's a lot of companies out there that maybe keep it going, but don't understand what that looks like. If you are growing, and what those growing pains look like, you know, as you want to scale up and as you and you hear it all the time of companies who hit maybe a million dollar mark and then they just can't they just Just can't level up because they don't have the tools in place. And once or if they hit that 5 million mark, they don't know how to, you know, go on beat beyond that.

Andrew Bartlow 20:11

It's a it's at all sizes and stages I have a client working with right now, that $600 million, and they're trying to get to a billion, like, those are big numbers, right. But it's different. Like it's, I saw, actually somebody who went through my People Leader Accelerator program, just put a really thoughtful article out on LinkedIn today. And he refers to organizations like potted plants. I loved it, I heard Yeah. Alright, so here's a connection. If the, if the organization is growing, it's going to need to be repotted into a different pot over time. Otherwise, it'll die. It'll, you know, it'll outgrow the framework that it's in. And so, you know, things are different at different sizes and stages and complexity, and just knowing that, and maybe moving into the bigger pot before you absolutely need it, but not too early. Don't drop your little cactus into a giant bathtub. You know, be aware of that natural transition.

Leighann Lovely 21:21

Right. And wow, that's a great analogy. I When you first said that I went I don't understand. But right now, as soon as he started walking through that I went, but I also kill every plant that's in my house. So maybe I learned something from that.

Andrew Bartlow 21:34

I need I need to credit the author on that, Daniel Illis, VP of People Vinted, Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 21:39

Okay. Well, yeah, that's that's absolutely great. A great analogy. And again, yeah, I kill every plant in my house. So maybe I should read that, you know, also helped me in business, right. Okay, so many people that I have spoken with have said that the problems that we are experiencing now with everything that's going on the world would eventually have become issues for businesses, that it's it's, it would have just happened at a slower pace that the pandemic has just basically accelerated. What we are seeing in businesses, what we're seeing in will a lot of things. Furthermore, they've said that this could be a good thing, because now we're seeing a lot of the issues that would have eventually come out. A light is being shined on them with, you know, a lot of things that we haven't talked about whether that be, you know, issues in the way that HR or the issues in whatever it might be in businesses that they weren't addressing before. Do you agree that it could be a good thing that we're kind of shining a light on some of the things that would eventually have been addressed? And that?

Andrew Bartlow 22:50

Yeah, well, is it? Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I don't know, that's kind of a value judgment, it's definitely a thing. Like, it's, it's definitely accelerated. And that means that organizations should adapt to it, and deal with it, and try to be tried to try to move up on the curve. So you're not, you know, reactionary, and dealing with a lack of available workforce. So you know, a value judgment of good or bad, I think it kind of depends where you stand. But, you know, to give a little bit more detail on what what I'm seeing happening in the, in the workplace, I deal with a bunch of different employers through my various plates spinning. With technology, we have dramatically increased the visibility of pay rates. So you can find out what different jobs make at different places. And it's no longer just professional workers that can figure that stuff out. Right, like, you know, our early industrial manufacturing service workers that are, you know, some of the lowest paid workers in the United States, they can find out that they can make more somewhere else. And they didn't used to be able to do that before the rise of technology and, and information that way. They can also get better and more information on the quality of a workplace like think of Glassdoor and indeed an employer reviews. So they can figure out hey, is this a good place to work or not? And that, you know, so. So technology has increased transparency in the workplace. And so he, whether that's related to the pandemic or not, I think it's accelerated people looking around, looking up and trying to figure out is this the right situation? For me? I think the pandemic has been a point of reflection. For a lot of workers. Whether you're working in a cafe or you're the CEO of a big organization, you look up and you look around you say what things are different. What what do I want my situation to be? And those moments when you reflect and look around, you're frankly more likely to make a move. than you are when you're not looking around when you're just doing the work. The other big area is, is remote work. So technology certainly enabled remote work. But those core tools have been around for a long time. They just really accelerated the adoption, you know, forced by some of the stay at home orders. So, yeah, it was it was a trend. But you know, it was it was nothing like it has been over the past year or two, and maybe the years ahead. So will more employers become more purposefully hybrid, or intentionally fully distributed and let go of their commercial office leases? Yeah, well, I think the percentages will move. I mean, we'll see what that eventually looks like. But I'm certain that that movement will move faster as a result of this pandemic than it would have otherwise. So there's just lots of lots of implications that touch the world of human resources management, that brought on by this by the pandemic and technology, it affects productivity effects, performance management, learning, compensation, attraction, and retention. There's a lot going on in the HR world, related to this confluence of events and technology.

Leighann Lovely 26:25

Yeah, absolutely. And an interesting fact that I read was that remote workers that were polled are 22%, happier than people that are not working at home, because of the fact that they are able to do and have a higher work life balance, they're happier, but they're putting in over 40 hours, 43% more of the time than their counterparts who are working on site. And the reason that they said that they were were doing this was because one, there's no commute. So instead of having to get up and leave the house at 7:30, to make it to work, and that's been, you know, depending on where you live, you may have to leave at seven to get there at eight, you may have to leave at 7:30 to get there at eight, whatever your commute is, but no longer do they have that commute, they can get out of bed, they can have breakfast with their family, if their families there, they can drop the kids off at school, and then be in for most cases, your children are within your school district, which is usually within a certain radius of your home, they're back at home, you know, getting to work by eight o'clock is quite easy. And if you don't have to leave your house at all, getting to work by eight o'clock is very easy. So they're gaining all of this time. So all of a sudden, putting in that extra half hour extra hour extra two hours of work doesn't feel like you're putting in that extra hour or two hours of work, because you're really not. I mean, you're you would have otherwise been sitting in your car on your way to work. So having those in those individuals who are putting in that extra time is all of a sudden not not a big deal to them, because and they're 22% happier.

Andrew Bartlow 28:14

Yeah. Well, and maybe it has impact. This is speculation. Maybe it's impacted the number of meetings that occur because meetings now need to be scheduled over whatever platform you're using. We're using Zoom today, rather than walking around the office and collecting everybody to move into a conference room to talk about whatever. Because some thought and planning needs to be put into it. It maybe it happens less. And so people actually have more time to do the work versus talking about the work.

Leighann Lovely 28:45

Correct. You also don't have employees hanging out in the lunch room talking for 25 minutes about their weekend or about how their kid did this are, you know, and I was one of those employees that you know, you get me on a conversation. You? Gee, I wonder how I ended up doing a podcast. You know, I was one of those employees who would sit in chit chats about you know, how are you? How are you, you know what's going on. And I mean, think about the hours. Again, it's a natural thing you want to know your coworkers but think about the amount of hours wasted at work of coworkers just making small talk. So think about how much more productive you are. When you're at home. Even if you get up to do laundry, even if you get up to do all of these different things. And again, I'm not arguing one way or another. Okay. There are a ton of them lawyers out there who are still dug in and say we will never go remote. It just won't work for us. And again, essential employees they can't most of the essential employees, healthcare workers, police officers we can't believe be a police officer and work at home. You have to be out there. We we need you out there. We need fire men out there. We need our healthcare workers out there, and fewer, any of those, thank you for your service. Thank you for doing that. But there are a ton of positions that can be done at home. And some employers are still saying, No, we won't do that. But the technology is now available. And to say that you're disconnected from the world, we are very much connected right now having a conversation, you're in San Francisco, I'm in Wisconsin. And yet, we are still finding a way to connect through a platform. And I don't know how I went off on this tangent, but I do have a tendency to do that.

Andrew Bartlow 30:37

Well, hey, I'd love to, I'd love to follow up on a couple of those comments. And that is that with remote work, there's still a value in building relationships. Most thing still get done in organizations through relationships, and who knows who, versus a really clear process flow, or list of instructions. And so, you know, knowing who you're working with, and you know, having a connection with people that gives you more meaning that gives you more purpose, those are all kind of fluffy things that are hard, they're hard to pin down to hard economic value, I'd suggest that there's the Yeah, as more organizations move to more distributed environments, there will be more intentional gatherings rather than the drop ends. So that that's probably useful, and probably money better spent than fancy office space. And in one particular geography, I'd also we're making predictions now. Alright, so here, we're doing this in 2022, I think there's going to be an increased focus on worker productivity, and performance. So all these people that are working somewhere where their managers can't see what they're doing. Yes, maybe they're working more hours, yes, maybe they are more productive. But there's very little right now to ascertain whether that's true or not. And so I think there will be a rise of tools and technologies and hopefully not like nanny cams and people's home offices. Right, it has areas that but I think there'll be a lot of interest in figuring out are my workers is my team working on the right stuff, to ensure that we get stuff done if we're not all together where we can follow up with each other?

Leighann Lovely 32:32

Yeah, and, you know, right now, I know that when one of my close friends, she's in accounting, and I know that when she is her computer is idle, her company knows. So I mean, there are some form of that. Now, there is some way didn't. I mean, I have teams, I have teams on my work computer. And when I'm away from my desk, it goes to an idle mode and my boss, well, my boss knows if I'm now I don't have a boss who's like, Hey, where are you? You know, not that I have a problem, hey, I'm at a meeting, you know, I'm in. For my day job. I'm in sales. So I'm all over the place today. I was taking meetings in my car. I mean, it's, it's the way of the world when you have the ability to do technology that way. Now, I've been in a sales role for many years of my career. So I'm used to being out on the road. I'm used to being you know, half the time, not in the office anyways. So, but yes, what you just said about technology, being able to, I hope it doesn't get to a point where it's a nanny cam type thing where it's watching me sit at my desk, that would make me wildly uncomfortable. But but you never know.

Andrew Bartlow 33:54

Screenshots there are technologies that will take screenshots of your of your computer and, and flag if it looks like you're on a YouTube site or whatever, doing something you're not supposed to be doing. Yeah, I am in no way advocating for these things. Please, please don't take that audience as my recommendation. This is more of a prediction as as remote work and distributed work, increase. And, you know, that becomes the expectation of the workforce, you'll have a tougher time recruiting people and retaining people if you don't allow more of that. I mean, there will still be companies that are fully together that that's fine. But there'll be an increased focus on on managing that distributed workforce.

Leighann Lovely 34:43

Yeah, no, I completely agree. And maybe you just came up with the next brilliant idea. Open up a company create the technology to be able to No, I'm no, I wouldn't want to do that.

Andrew Bartlow 34:54

Not that hard. I'm in I'm just outside Silicon Valley. I had a call with a Ukrainian product. design engineering firm just before this call, it's not that hard. Everybody's doing it.

Leighann Lovely 35:06

Yep. Yeah, technology popping up everywhere new platforms, new recruiting platforms popping up everywhere. I hear that one all the time. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, and people ask me, How do you beat the bottom when you apply to a position? I don't know it, you end up in a virtual stack of resumes. That's why I send you to a live recruiter who then sends you to companies. Okay. Anyways, now, we are pretty much at time. So this is the final question, this question that I'm asking everybody. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be and why?

Andrew Bartlow 35:48

Yeah, so I had a really major formative experience early in my career. It was my second job out of grad school, I left Pepsi to become head of HR at some tiny technology professional services company. So I was head of HR at a startup at 24-23 years old. And we took that company, I was hired number 20. We took it to about 120 employees globally in less than a year. And then I mean, this, this definitely dates me. But then the.com crash happened, and completely went out of business. They went from 120 to zero. So talk about a tremendous formative experience lasted a year, we went from 20 to 120, we went from local to national to global, and then we went out of business. So during that time, I, I learned how to partner with finance. So we were doing all the workforce planning, we figured out we couldn't make payroll, had to talk to the CEO founder about that, I've learned how to interact with a business leader, a co founder, which is a very different animal than a air, quote, professional founder that grew up inside of a of a company that somebody else started, I learned prioritization at that small company, because everything needed to be done and everything was on fire. And by the bottom line, I just had received a lot of hard knocks and stubbed toes along the way. And it makes a story that I'm telling 20 years later, so that that was a really formative experience for me that that helped accelerate my career path through some of those hard knocks.

Leighann Lovely 37:39

Wow. 23 You were 23 when you were the director of HR? Wow, that is an experience. And I'm sure one that really launched you into, you know, a whole lot of new understanding of things. So thank you for sharing that. And Andrew, thank you so very much for coming on today. If somebody wants to get a hold of you or reach out to you about, you know, well, your book or your services, how would they go about doing that?

Andrew Bartlow 38:11

Great. Well, thanks for the underhanded pitch. I'll try to hit it out of the park. LinkedIn is a great place to find me there are not that many Andrew Barlow's. I also have a website for the development program for HR leaders. People Leader Accelerator I'm sure it'll be in the show notes. And then I have my own personal single shingle consulting firm and it's called Series B is in boy or Bartlow. Consulting Series B. consulting.com.

Leighann Lovely 38:44

Perfect. Well, thank you again. It's been awesome. Thank you. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

TO contact Andrew Bartlow,

Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/bartlow

Website for the Development Program for HR Leaders People Leader Accelerator and B Series Consulting -

seriesBconsulting.com

wisegrowth.net

Direct e-mail- andrew.bartlow@seriesbconsulting.com

Huge Thank you to Irene for connecting Andrew with Leighann

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Understanding people and the way they think is an art form that many take a lifetime to achieve. Others have a natural ability, still, others learn through experience (trial and error). Jamar may be a natural or a combination, but he sure has an ability.

Jamar Jones, Business Owner, Speaker, and Author of Changer Your Circle, Change Your Life

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Leighann Lovely 01:04

I am so excited to have my next guest join me today. He has forced me outside my comfort zone, I look up to him. He is a natural leader and has created his own success and continues to do that. Jamar Jones business owners speaker and author of the book Change Your Circle, Change Your Life is a visionary who believes in leadership and subscribes to the notion that we can all connect with each other in a relatable way from a thriving music career performing for thousands to managing IT professionals. Jim Mars experience inspired him to establish his own branding and media agency, forever media. Now six years later, and 11 employees strong Jamar models consistency and a strong work ethic to his team. His desire to surround himself with good people who challenge him to excel every day is what excites and empowers him. Jamar is proud to serve others as a beacon for excellence. His philosophies and intentional action have changed the landscape of his life and the lives of others. Jamar thank you so much for coming and talking with me today. I'm really excited to have you here.

Jamar Jones 02:27

Yeah, it's I'm super, I'm super excited to have to be on this podcast, to talk about some HR talk about life. Talk about people, because that's what HR is all about.

Leighann Lovely 02:38

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's the human factor, right? I think so many people forget that HR is human resources. So yes, yes. Well, tell me a little bit, you know, about yourself and your business Foureva Media.

Jamar Jones 02:56

Yeah, uh, Foureva Media is really becoming a source for branded entertainment. That's the best way to put it for blurring the lines between advertising and entertainment. And how do you do that? So Foureva Media is a firm that really focuses on things that have a cause or a mission. And really teaching people and working with people how to market like an entertainer. So the the company itself, I have about 13 people who work for the company here in Brookfield and yeah, we really are focused on branding, podcasting, social media events, and in design is really our focus.

Leighann Lovely 03:43

That's awesome. And you started the organization, you started the company. So you are kind of the everything of you know, owner, human resources and author now you, definitely wrote a book, which, yeah, so often, I have interviewed authors. And I've said, Sorry, I didn't get a chance to read your book, your book I read. And it was yeah, it was awesome. I loved it. So tell me a little bit about changer circle change your life?

Jamar Jones 04:18

Yeah, Change Your Circle, Change Your Life is all about how to evaluate your current circle, and then how to get into nuance. And too many people are they live in their own bubble. And they don't know. First of all, they don't know how to be self-aware enough to know that they're just comfortable in their own bubble. And then also they don't know how to get into new circles to expand their mind, their mindsets, their connections, relationships and opportunities. So the book is really focused on mindset and action at the same time and things that you can actually apply it to your life to ultimately change it. And you know, people A circle as really, it almost the the ability to change the circle really defines growth that defines opportunity and where you're going. And in your life, if you stay in the same circle, you're so limited to beliefs and also to opportunity.

Leighann Lovely 05:21

And, while I without giving away too much on the book there was there was you talked a little bit about some of the the negatives that the vampires in the shepherd's, which really resonated with me, because, you know, I've had a lot of conversations with people have, you know, you get to a point in your life where you realize there are certain people that you have to, you have to walk away with, or walk away from. And I think that you have a little bit of a personal experience that you share. And that it really, you know, I've experienced that I think many people have experienced that where you cannot continue to grow personally, if you are allowing some people in your life to continue to just drag you down. And so yeah, there. I mean, it was just amazing to read it. Not only was I reading it and hearing your voice in my head I think this is so weird, you know, but it's definitely a different feeling when you know, somebody that you know, the right right wrote the book, and then I feel like wow, I am hearing Jabbar in my head when

Jamar Jones 06:29

it's literally like my speak in it too, because I drove my editor crazy, because he's like, you can't say this, you you technically shouldn't have this, they're like, just keep it just keep it I needed to be me.

Leighann Lovely 06:40

Hey, write your authentic self. You gotta it's got to be. And I'm sure that the people who know you and have have read it, have said something to you similar like, wow, I felt like Jamal was sitting in my bedroom while I was reading this book that probably got creepy away for a second in the bedroom. Chillin in the bedroom? Yes. But no, there were a lot of things that really, you know, resignated with, with me from, you know, just being able to hear your personal story and your personal growth. So, you know, anybody listening, definitely check out the book, it's, it's great. To be able to hear somebody else's story, and then identify in certain ways, whatever that might be, with your own personal story. So, yeah, I loved it. It was great. Yeah. So I would love to, to know a little bit more about it. When did you decide that, hey, I want to write a book. And I want to tell the story.

Jamar Jones 07:43

Um, I didn't know it was gonna be in a while I've always wanted to write something. So I knew that I had I knew something was there, the changes circle, change your life. philosophy was all it was with me, you know, five, six years ago, I actually have an old video, that's like five and a half years ago, and I was sitting on this couch, and I was like, change your circle, change your life, you know, something like that some live stream was doing on Facebook or so. So the concept has always been there. But as I started to evolve as a person, I started to get more clear that, okay, this is what I want the book to be about. Because it's something that I've lived personally. And I'm going to continue to live. And so that it just, it just keeps it keeps, you know, something that's fresh, it's new, it's exciting. I'm living in it. So I wanted to share that story. And I felt let you know, I didn't need to wait for all the credentials, you know, I I know through the book, you know, I can have part two, part three, part four, Part Five as I can seem to change my circle, and my life is inevitably going to change. So I'm like, let me just get this out. Now. Let me just do it now. And that was the whole The whole purpose and I want something that's a staple to something that I can pass on to somebody else. That's more than just a business card. It's like, Hey, this is this is me, you can get to learn and, you know, know how my mind works. And it's just, uh, that extra step.

Leighann Lovely 09:21

That's great. You know, and a lot of people and I like what you said about, like, let's get it out. There's so many people out there who you started. And then it takes them 10 years because they're like, I just let's make it perfect. Let's make but there is no, there is no, right. There's no form of there's no, there's no perfect. Oh, but you know, yours was great. Your book is great. So,

Jamar Jones 09:48

notice the words in that one. I read I read it back and I'm like, oh, there's a period missing, right?

Leighann Lovely 09:55

Like, oh, you know what, though? I am, grammar is that's so insignificant when it comes to the content. Oh, content 100%. Now I know that there are some, you know, grammar majors out there. There are some in there like, nope, absent. But you know, really come on. I don't think that's yeah, yeah. I, you know, and I used to my brother is a major in his major in creative writing. And, you know, he used to be an editor and I used to every time I wrote something, I would send it to him and be like, can you edit this? And I got to a point in my life where I'm like, No, it's just not worth it like. And now people text in order to communicate like, yeah, using abbreviations that sometimes I have to Google. I'm like, I don't even know what this abbreviation

Jamar Jones 10:50

I'm having to do it. That means we get and we get in there. Now we got to start Googling it, you get what is this?

Leighann Lovely 11:01

Yeah, you know, that you're, you're Yeah, I'm dating myself. Oh, god. Oh. So let's go back to Fourever Media, you know, you. You talk a little bit in the book about, you know, starting a business and your journey to that. Tell me, you know, in your own words of just, you know, how did you decide one day, I'm going to start my own company, and now responsible for use 13? Employees? Yeah, yeah. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. What I mean, and why. I shouldn't say why. I shouldn't ask, why did you start your own business? But, you know, when when did you say, Hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. This is this is my path.

Jamar Jones 11:53

Yeah, um, I was talking to my dad the other day about this. And, you know, I'm naturally a risk taker. You know, like, it's just, it's just in me, I'm about to take a gigantic risk in a couple weeks. And it's, it's something that you when I was doing music, like, I always had this entrepreneur mindset of doing something for myself. So I never was in this, like, I got to get the degree, I got to get the, you know, like the pathway was never appealing to me. And I'm like, I'd rather bet on myself and bet on a system, you know, so let me let me do it. You know, so, through music, I think I developed an entrepreneur spirit. And so by time I got laid off from the IT company I was working at, or the financial company, I, you know, it's like getting back into the workforce. It's let me tell you how my mind works. It doesn't make sense. So I, you know, after I got laid off, there's some severance pay that happened, you know, very short, I think was like, probably like a month wasn't much. And then after that, I'm supposed to, you know, get collect unemployment. I have so much pride of myself are doing my own thing. I only collected unemployment for two weeks. And then I just said, like, I don't need you, I don't need you. Stupid, I shouldn't just took the money. But I just was like, I didn't want to turn in false interviews of what I'm doing. Because I'm like, I'm not gonna go find a job, I'm not going to, I'm going to decide to do this myself. And that was kind of that moment where I'm like, No, I'm gonna, like, I don't want to lean on these other things that are gonna dictate my future. So I wanted to take that upon myself. So that I was like, Hey, I'm just gonna open something that anything I'm kind of good at, is what I want to start at. So I had like, 20 services, anything I'm kind of good at, put it out there. And then slowly, the things that correlated with me just took off, you know, the video and the photography side more video than anything started to take off. And I started to develop that. And I feel like throughout the years now I've, I'm finally getting in that sweet spot of, you know, really the essence of myself now breathing through the company, and I'm able to offer a lot of value.

Leighann Lovely 14:28

That's great. And it takes some people well, some people never find that sweet spot of what they want to do. Some people dream about it their entire lives and and never find that and it also takes somebody who is willing to take that risk, and there are a lot of risk adverse individuals out there you are you're, you know, a very small percentage of the population who is willing to take a chance on themselves and willing to take a leap of faith and then be able to build it and be successful at it. So I yeah, I applaud you. That's, that's amazing. And you also are very involved in in other avenues. Other things, something coming up. What is it? Is it next week? Young Guns?

Jamar Jones 15:20

Yeah, two weeks, two weeks ago. Young Guns, they have another summit that they're doing. So yeah, we're and we're in the cool thing about getting involved with the Young Guns Movement is that now that I'm involved, I'm trying to elevate the events every single time to slowly each one, just trying to do something different, to add that little extra character to it. So I'm involved a lot of different groups, I'm on the board of climb, as well, which is a nonprofit organization all about financial literacy for the youth and young adults, just getting access to Financial Literacy, part of a group called Ford 48. So it's Emerging Leaders of Milwaukee, kind of come together and communicate and networks to help the community as well. And I'm about you know, probably involved with a lot of other things that are too long to list. But,

Leighann Lovely 16:18

but you know, you also you also try to take on mentors when you when you can, yes,

Jamar Jones 16:24

yes, so I personally mentor five people each year. So I get my phone number. And it's I have some youth, you know, some you know, young adults, so some people in high school, college, and then I have some, some older adults that are just trying to figure it out, you know, like, what, what's the next step? What do they do and have one guy that's, you know, around things like 38-39? Then he's just, you know, he's just trying to figure out how does he change his circle? How does he do it?

Leighann Lovely 16:53

And that's great, because for some people, it's it's difficult to reach out, and it's difficult to find somebody, but to have that lifeline, when you're when you have questions. Yeah, you know, I've had multiple mentors throughout my career, I'm in, I'm in the market for a mentor, Hey anyone out there. But I, you know, it's every mentor I've had has always happened naturally, I've never had to search for one before. And I just kind of, I'm kind of hanging out there right now. Like, I wonder, but anyways, but I, you know, having having a solid mentor that you can look up to, and that you respect, and that just, it's an amazing thing to have, especially as a young adult coming in and looking up to somebody who's built their own thing. I mean, you truly have built this from from scratch taking the risks that you've taken to build what you have built. That's, I mean, it's, that's awesome. Yeah, that's great.

Jamar Jones 17:59

It's, I have to pinch myself every time, you know, about being here, but I would say that the key to to doing what I'm doing is, is people, you know, you want to, you want to put your belief into people, even when they don't see it. And you can't do this alone. So people that maybe have an ego or pride, they're never going to build something bigger than themselves. Because you can't get past that one person, it's you need to empower other people, you need to have belief in them and, and give them room to to grow and to expand their own efforts. And I think through forever media, that's, that's what I'm, you know, I just want to unlock people's superpower. And, and let them let them go, you know, with it and run in and grow through it. And that's really the key, you know, you have to know, you know, this is an HR podcast, but that people is, if your culture is not there, you can't scale. You know, there's, there's no way to do it, and people will find something better, you know, so I'm trying to create that culture that is all about belief and growth and opportunity, unlocking superpowers, and, you know, just putting people in their own creative genius.

Leighann Lovely 19:29

And that's, you said culture. That is the number one reason anybody leaves a company, it 100% I mean, you're not happy at a company and people I have on a regular basis. I have people call me and say, I've been at this company 20 years, but I've noticed a cultural shift and it's becoming it's becoming a hostile work environment. I'm, I need to be out of here yesterday. But the managers and the owners to think like you, who empower their employees to be themselves, who empower their employees to do the best they can, by allowing them to do a variety of things, whether that be encouraging a side hustle, whether that be encouraging their own creativity, encouraging them to come forward with their own ideas. Yeah, those are things that will take your company to the next level. But there are so a lot of companies out there operating under the idea that, no, my employees have to be 100%, only about me and my company. And it's like, wait, wait. But people inherently want to do things for themselves and feel good for themselves, and know that they're being valued as individuals. It's not just about you. So get off your pedistal

Jamar Jones 20:57

Yeah, that the, I like to sum up all of that into into this, if, as a business owner or manager, you are in charge of selling the company in the brand. If what you what you want, is to start getting partners and stakeholders within what you're selling. So you have to provide equity. So if if your team and you're the other people that work for the organization, if they don't have equity, then what why are they there? They're just collecting a paycheck. And they're just they're just doing doing the task. There's no, there's no, they have nothing attached to it. So you have to provide and I'm not saying like literal equity of percentage, what I'm saying is that you have to give them some some type of buy in, you know, that, why are they here. So you have to, like you said, promote those ideas, promote those side hustles, those other things that can say, you can have something that says this is yours, too, this is yours are doing this together. It's not just me riding the wave and getting all the accolades. You know, this is a team effort. And we took that idea that you had and now look at it, boom, right? You know, so that's equity within your employees and within your team is so crucial for success.

Leighann Lovely 22:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I've, again, like I said, I've seen it, not only have I seen it from the outside, looking in at a company, because I've talked with the employees that work there, but I've experienced it myself, where I'm like, Wow, I'm literally just a number, another representative that's painted the color of the company, and right, being told that I need to blend in and just be the company. We're not an individual. That's just not the way the world works anymore. Everybody wants to have their own individuality. And if people like you, they buy from you, and you are the company. So it's just yeah, 100. Right. And as an owner who encourages your, you know, your employees to, to be themselves too. You know, and I'm going on a tangent, I have a tendency to do. I'm an HR geek,

Jamar Jones 23:22

Natural, it's your podcast, you can do whatever you want, when you gotta go on a tangent,

Leighann Lovely 23:27

and then three hours, you'd be like, okay, Leighann, I have other things to get to. I do appreciate the time, but I gotta go. Anyways, I know. That's, that's Yeah. So you know what I love about you. And you the first time I met you, I remember I actually saw you at the, when you were introduced at Young Guns, as you're joining the Young Guns. You walked in, and I was like, Who is this guy? Like, is he famous or something? Because you walked in? And you had? Who was it that was following you with? Like a camera? Or was it? Yeah, okay. Yeah. Right. I'm like, what does he do? Like, he must be famous. They're like, they have like cameras around him. And they're like, some, like, kind of, like watching you and then they introduced you. And I'm like, Okay, so he's, he's somebody important because, you know, they're filming all of this and, and then I briefly had the opportunity to talk with you and then we scheduled a one on one and I walked into your office, I had no idea what to expect. And then what we talked for, like two and a half an hour or two and like, walked out, I'm like, holy crap, like I've never done. I've never walked into a meeting and expecting it to be like, an hour and then leave and I'm like, Oh, my God. But it was like one of the greatest conversations like that I ever had, like on the first meeting. And I remember you said to me, oh, later on, if you're gonna hang out with me, you better get comfortable being in front of cameras. And since that day, the one thing that I'm not comfortable with and the reason that I'm I do a podcast where it's not doesn't show a picture of me is because I'm not. But every time I've seen you, you're like, Here, get in front of that camera. And you do you encourage, and you push people to do things that are outside, and not enough. Not in a uncomfortable way, but you encourage that, that limit that line, you kind of push that envelope of, but you can do this, you could and I love that about you. It's just you have a natural ability to talk people into doing things that maybe it's just that you're just a great sales guy.

Jamar Jones 25:57

Hey, people, you know, it's it's just people i That's amazing. That's amazing feedback. I always like to I'm always interested on hearing the outside looking in, you know, cuz like I'm always seeing it from one lens. And I some time I like this, you know, that kind of feedback. It's just people like it's a, I can quickly adapt to personalities for people and depending on if you're like, Andy Weins or you're very loud, and you know, and just like Dalio, but I can I can, I can get to that level with him. Or I can go calm and somebody that's more reserved. And so I have the ability to kind of, and that's what I kind of learned through the years, it's like, this is something that is not normal that now a lot of people have, you know, that kind of ability to connect with all types of individuals, they can only connect with only certain groups. And I think just how I carry myself and how I'm doing this stuff is is really interesting. And I just naturally always want to push people I just, I don't know, it's just in me, I always want to do it. And that's why I tell people at work here. I'm like, if you don't, if you don't want to be pushed this the wrong place. The Wrong place, because I'm gonna do it naturally. I'm not even gonna, I'm not even gonna, like do it intentionally. It's just gonna be like, No, you're gonna watch you got this like stuff get over there. Or, you know, I'm gonna push the boundaries of, of, you know, because I want to see greatness. I think we're, we all have greatness within us. We just have to unlock it. And that's, and I think you getting in front of those cameras. It just boosts a little bit a little bit of confidence. I did that I did that phone. Okay, let's go to the next day.

Leighann Lovely 27:39

Yeah, it No, it's to have that natural, that natural ability that you have to just, and it's subtle. You're just like, Oh, you just grabbed me. Okay, you're gonna go over here and you're gonna do this. And I'm like, no, no, I'm no, I'm not. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, you got this. You got this land. You got this? I guess I got this tomorrow. It's great. It's absolute. You are, you're a natural leader. You're you. You're a natural born leader. You're confident you. Yeah, you you are the kind of person who should be owning their own business and whatever you have in the hopper, and I'm, I'm so curious, I'm not going to ask you. But whatever it is, I'm sure that it's going to be a great success. I'm your cheering section over here.

Jamar Jones 28:26

Oh, my God. Well, once I announced that I will be hitting you up. I'm hitting actually everybody up. Okay. It's gonna happen this year, in the fall. And it's,

Leighann Lovely 28:39

is it required me to get in front of any cameras?

Leighann Lovely 28:46

Oh, of course. Okay. So, we are coming to time, but the question of the season. So of asking everybody, if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life, or your career path? When would that be and why?

Jamar Jones 29:11

You know, I kind of I for myself, I have I have too many to name. I would say one of the I want to give you a really good concise answer. I one of the times that I say it in my book, so I have a mentor. And I don't think he knows on how much he did for me. It's, it's, I was in a period where I was, you know, deep into music, you know, trying to work an IT job at the same time. I was young and learning a lot of stuff didn't understand the corporate world at all. And I just felt like his patients in cander And the opportunities he was giving me the forgiveness that He gave me through that process of me evolving and learning and growing, I will never take that for granted of what he was able to do. And the mentorship and just the the late nights at the office, just give me some, you know, tips and tricks on some stuff or, you know, just that further belief. And, because I feel like it made me who I am today, because I had the, the entertainment, you know, the ambition side of me, but now I learned how to hone that in and deliver that in a way of in all different aspects. In really dove into more of personalities learning on how to communicate better with people how to listen, I was just a knucklehead, just you know, I would never listen. And it's helped me to listen first and then respond, just to so many things. That it it, I feel like that position in my life when I was about 23-24 It just really helped me become who I am today and be able to change my circle multiple times to get to this position.

Leighann Lovely 31:20

That's awesome. So this was when you were in your early 20s.

Jamar Jones 31:26

Yeah, early 23-24. Yeah, it was, because I, you know, he was basically like, hey, you know, cuz there's a training budget, and then he was like, go to, you know, you, you got to find the events and seminars and stuff to go to. But you know, whatever you find, as long as it's not astronomical, I'll prove it, and you got to go, and you got to take your notes, but you got to give me the notes after you get back. So it was like this thing. So I just, like went to all these different seminars, all these different kind of trainings and stuff, and it just really helped me, but then also the personal connection with him, you know, helping me through it, and dealing with real life situations, like crappy bosses, and, you know, just dealing with stupid stuff in the corporate world. I, I had to learn through that. And I could actually apply what I was learning right then in there. So it's just, it was a fast pace of kind of growth. That happened within like, a, like, a three year period. From,

Leighann Lovely 32:24

Yeah, that's great. And, you know, and I've said this before, and I'm gonna say it all the time. It's, it's, it's always when we need it most that the greatest people come into our lives and they offer the, it's, it's when we ask for the advice. And that, that we get, you know, what we need? And sometimes those people just fall into our lives at the right time.

Jamar Jones 32:51

Oh, 100% 100%. But you got to ask, yep, pick what is asked. Because if you don't ask, you know, get, right.

Leighann Lovely 33:01

You? Yeah, it's it's 100% You have to take the initiative, and you have to ask, so. Yeah, that's awesome. That's, that's great. Again, mentors, career mentors, have been, for me just made the world of difference. Because, like, so many, the number one thing that I was incapable of understanding when I entered into the workforce was the politics behind. Right. I know and, you know, we all say Oh, well, you just go to work and do your job Keep your head down. You it's impossible to avoid some of the politics that go on in an office and for a young you know, young individual entering into the the corporate world. It is a jungle it's it's sometimes hard to understand what is really happening on a day to day basis when it comes to the Yeah, I am, right. I am guilty of being one of the worst. People when I was younger, I mean, I would come home and my dad's like, you're gonna get yourself fired. And sure enough. I'm better now. I you know, yeah. Yeah. I have not gotten myself fired in a very, very, very long time.

Jamar Jones 34:27

There you go. That's progress. That's progress, progress.

Leighann Lovely 34:33

I just, you know, I've always had the mouth on me and I just never knew when to not talk so. Well, hey, Jamar, this has been an awesome conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and talking with me today. I'm so excited to hear what comes next with you. I know that you always have some amazing things in the hopper and I look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks at the Young Guns Movement or the Young Guns Summit. And yeah, I will put in the show notes how you can reach out to Fourever Media if you are interested in Jamar's book, Change Your Circle, Change Your Life. That'll also be in the show notes. But if somebody wants to reach out directly to you, is there another way that you would prefer that they do that?

Jamar Jones 35:19

Um, LinkedIn is by the best way or JJones@fourevermedia.com You know, email me, you know, I am reachable. I'm busy but reachable.

Leighann Lovely 35:35

Well, again, thank you so very much.

Jamar Jones 35:38

Yeah, thank you.

Leighann Lovely 35:40

Jamar Jones

LinkedIN - linkedin.com/in/relatablejamar

E-mail - JJones@fourevermedia.com

Website - fourevamedia.com

Author - Change Your Circle, Change Your Life

Young Guns Movement - https://www.younggunsevent.com/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music from Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/cruen/family-time License code: 2330NZD3BLNDKPYI

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Non-discriminatory, silent, and sometimes deadly... Addiction. So many of us face challenges and many don't know that those around us are facing them still. This is the reality of life, but it doesn't have to be, Kevin an amazingly strong and open soul joins me to talk about healing.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners, and Employees to come together to share experience, talking about what's working, what's not how we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift and what people want generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us like to welcome my guest this week, Kevin White, he is a high stakes business therapist for the white group. As a high stakes business therapist Kevin thrives in situations where there is a lot on the line, and specializes in one on one work for business owners struggling with addiction. When the business needs additional support Jamie, Kevin's wife, and he worked together to navigate these situations as a team. They are uniquely positioned to support small business owners and their spouses and the leadership teams who navigate the opportunities and challenges that come when the stakes are high. Having been through many of those critical moments, himself, Kevin has been thankful for those that have been in his corner during those times. After 20 years of marriage and riding the roller coaster that comes with the struggles of overcoming addiction. He really believes in the power of empathy and love based therapies for people side of business. Kevin, I am so excited that you have joined me today. And I'm really excited to learn a little bit about your background and kind of find out, you know, the direction that you're going today. Because you and I talked prior to this show. And there's there's so many things, you know, on your plate right now. So why don't you tell me a little bit about yourself? And again, welcome to the show.

Kevin White 02:08

All right. Well, thank you. Yes, I've been looking forward to this conversation as well. So starting back at the beginning, I grew up in Iowa, very rural area. I met my wife, who was from Wisconsin and moved to Wisconsin, I started out of high school in it. And I spent 20 years in IT. I still am working out of some IT roles, finishing up some projects, and am transitioning into doing more coaching with people around addiction around business around some more completely different topics that I learned along the way. Really my journey in IT started as like a network person, setting up computers, setting up networks and all of that. And then I was fortunate through the family businesses that I was a part of to grow into several different roles, ending up doing more and more database work. And looking back, I found out that what I really liked about it was the relationships and the people that I was working with. So as I got into more like business intelligence roles, what I was really looking for, and what I really liked was the conversations and the people I was meeting, right, so I'm not an analytical person even though I work on data warehouses today and I do all this, you know, very analytical work I'm usually involved in the front end of that, or the like, I guess I don't know what the right term is, but the front end of that work, meaning I'm working with the clients on the end product and on giving them what they need to conduct their business. And so I think the common thread in my life between my first career and what is turning out to be my second career is that I'm a real people person, I love what people present. I love the story of of who you are and and what you bring to the world and and how you can contribute and how we contribute to each other. And so I think that's, the gist of who I am.

Leighann Lovely 05:05

You know, it's so, so completely interesting that you what you just said, Because long, long ago, I, I went to school for computer programming, and a class and an internship short of my degree. I went, I don't, I don't really want to do this for everything you just said, which is I love people. I wanted to be in front of people, and I didn't see a career in computer programming, having that exposure to to people, but you have found a way to have a career in IT, and still have that exposure by working with people. But now you are, you're kind of entering into with what you have been doing with your current role and doing a little bit of coaching and, and what you're, you're going into with the white group, you've been doing some coaching, and while your wife has been doing some coaching with businesses, you do some individualized coaching, and now you're kind of launching your own thing, where you're going to get to do a lot more individualized help and things like that, correct?

Kevin White 06:23

Yeah. So along the journey, so I worked with, let's see, or small businesses. Okay, so the first two are family businesses. And I say that because there was more than one family member working in them. And then the second two were pretty much single proprietors. And they didn't really have a family that was involved at all in the business. I remember, I worked for a consultant, nada, Madison, and he, I got really close with him. And he had a very successful business that went from when I started around 15 people to when I left around 60 In a seven year period, I remember him asking me as I was switching roles, because I was involved in sales, and I was involved in implementation. And then I was involved in this data stuff. And he's like, Kevin, what do you really want to do? Like, I'm confused about what it is that you want to focus on. And I was having trouble answering that at the time. I think that, for me, it's kind of a story of late maturity. Like, my dad and my grandpa, were like computers. And my dad told me when I was young, that let's do something you love, and you're gonna find your way that way. And so I took that to heart, I did that. And I did, like, I liked the part about computers I liked is the seeking of knowledge, the figuring it out the challenge, the A, the ability to help others through that medium through that technology. And so that, that was part of my journey, and certainly is the part that I love. But I think that now that I've been through a little bit more of life, and I've dealt with some of the my own issues, that I've gotten to a state now where I really see a way that I can help people directly, you know, and, and it still might be business related, but a lot of the work is around the person.

Leighann Lovely 08:28

What's amazing that in each one of us are defined by the journeys that we take, you've had an interesting journey, not only with the career that you've that you've had the career that you're leaving, and I shouldn't say leaving, but you're, you know, in the IT world or to IT realm. It has been obviously an amazing career, because you're still you're still doing that. But on the flip side of that you've also been involved with The White Group and tell me a little bit more about, you know, the idea and the concepts behind how that developed and came to fruition. And then, you know, tell me where things are with that right now and your involvement in that

Kevin White 09:14

About in 2017. My wife started working with a coach named Mark King, who is in the Milwaukee area. He works in Chicago and Milwaukee. Somewhere along her journey with him. He was helping with her family business. She works for her dad's so he was helping them with their communication and stuff like that. And I had had some questions about something I can't remember. And she said maybe you should talk to Mark about it. So I started working with him and that has been that's been almost a four year journey now. Coming up on four years, where I've been working with Mark on the company I was I'm currently transitioning out of, as well as just myself and my own fears that come out in my communication, that kind of stuff. So what that work uncovered, is just how much along with like half the world that seems like that's turning into coaches like how much opportunity we have inside of us, when we talk about HR, I think that there's just the whole idea of humans as resources, how are resources for each other? How how much potential we have, that's, I guess, the journey that has been there for me in the last four years. As far as like, how, where I'm taking that I think that I've, originally I just thought, Alright, I'm gonna work with teams of people, and try to uncover some of how they're making, we're making everything so stressful when it doesn't have to be. As a consultant, I've been involved in huge projects, some projects, this isn't talked a lot a lot, some projects that are really big, actually completely fail. I was involved in, you know, like, a half a million dollar failure, and part of my career. And so when you go through some of those situations, especially in bigger companies, you want to figure out, how do we actually succeed at this? How do we do something big and completely make it work? Right. And so that was my original focus for the business for The White Group. Since then, as we better define what we're doing, I've focused a little bit more on addiction, specifically, which is my story and where I came from, so we're doing kind of same thing, but with an approach of like, supporting business people that are dealing with addiction, if that makes sense. It's niching. down to, you know, getting into a small area of helping people instead of that broad area of well, I'm going to help IT teams, you know, right. And that, you know,

Leighann Lovely 12:14

You said something that that resonated with me niching down into that small area, which is I think that what we all need to do, you know, businesses out there used to say, Okay, we're gonna have every service in the world so that we can try to help everybody. That's no longer I think what people want, they want to be able to call one company that is the absolute expert, on whatever, that that that thing that they need is so because yeah, if I call, you know, if I call my doctor's office, and I have, you know, a broken finger, and they say, well, we specialize on toes, you know, I don't want to talk to them. I want to talk to the finger guy. Yes. So that mean, that's great. That's, that's awesome. And there are so many things happening in the world today. One being, addiction, mental health, whether that be related to addiction, whether that be related to what's happened with the pandemic. I mean, the list could go on. But that's amazing for not only to take that from kind of that life coach standpoint, but from the business standpoint, because people forget that just because you may be a successful business person, doesn't mean that you don't have some demons or skeletons in your closet. I think I said this to you, you know, the first time we talked, the more money you have, doesn't necessarily mean that problems go away. It typically means the bigger the problem, get. Yeah, yeah, yes. So I mean that I commend you on that. Tell me a little bit if you're open to it, about your story.

Kevin White 14:06

Yeah, so behind everything I told you, is the story of my addiction. Right. So starting when I was a kid, so I was, and I can confidently say now, but like, basically, it was a long journey. In the last, I would say six years away from addiction, but with different stages that I could identify for you. But so I was a porn addict that started when I was a kid. And something happened to me that was fairly similar. A lot of guys that I've talked to have been exposed to that type of material. Very young. No big deal, right? Like it's like part of life. So why was I interested in it? Well, when you dig in, and kind of the work that I've done in the healing process, is I was exposed. I was vulnerable to it because I just moved to a new school. I think I'm naturally curious, I'm possibly a little more have a more open to dicted personality than other people possibly. I think we find that among addicts that we have a certain we have certain traits that maybe make us more open to it, right. But really what it comes down to is like the rejection I was feeling in my new school. You know, even with living on a block with, like, 40 kids like all the dynamics of what was happening in my neighborhood, and, and you know, I wasn't dealing with that very well. And so I was looking for over the period of the rest of my school life. When I was exposed to that type of thing, I was using that as a, as a cover up for the pain I was feeling. And I think that we would probably say that this is similar for almost all addictions, there's a, there's a commonality here and that it's a coping thing, right. It's, it's, we don't want to address pain, we don't want to end it. But we get new problems, right? We haven't shamed now and all these new things. So right, it's behind. So behind everything we talked about, I was dealing with that in my relationship I was married, my wife was dealing with most of the problems with those what was going on? So I know how much you want to get into all of the specifics around this, because it's a big story. But like, yes, that's my that's my journey. And part of the reason why I think it's so important in business to support people's mental health, because, of course, no, no owner, no manager that I had knew that that was there. And I'm not saying that it's always appropriate for managers to know this. But I think one reason why coaching is a thing is because, like, and coaching in business, even life coaching in businesses, the thing is, because I started working like my, my journey, more recently has been working with a coach on business things, right? Getting with the team, how, how can I serve my team members better, how can I understand them better, all of those things, that's a really safe place to work on some of these things that are impacting us internally. Okay. And so then, but then we can extend it beyond that, we can take it into our personal life, into our relationships into our relationships with our kids. And so that's what I'm seeing with, I would say, a very broad community that's focused across many needs. One thing that I'm focused on and I see some other coaches focused on is this concept of, hey, business is a great area where we can work on ourselves, we can work together, we can work on how we communicate better, how we leverage each other better, how we support each other better. And then those things that we learn at work, we can bring home,

Leighann Lovely 17:59

Correct. And we spend so much time at work, that if if we're able to work on ourselves at work, and be able to work on ourselves at home, whether that if we need additional help through a mental health provider, or through a doctor, we're able to hone in on that when we're on our personal time. But if we're working with somebody at work as well, on trying to figure out areas of need there, I mean, think about how powerful that can be. I mean, putting those two things together is is that's an extremely strong thing. And to have people who are brave enough to come in and talk about their addictions, in a public forum, is just it's an amazing thing to do. Because, again, very much like all of the other conversations that are happening out there around mental health and around, you know, neurodiversity, and around again, the list goes on. These are the conversations that need to happen so that people no longer think of oh my gosh, that's such a bad horrible thing. I mean, we need to, we need to have those conversations in order to make people you know, realize that this is happening. It could be happening to you, it could be happening to a family member, your neighbor, it could be happening to your co worker, and you may have no idea. You know, your best friends could be, you know, hiding booze all over their house. And you may have no idea, you know, and some people may be laughing at that, but I know somebody who, you know, hey, I had absolutely no idea that they were drinking from the time they woke up in the morning until the time that they went to bed. I mean, I've experienced myself where I had no idea that a very close friend of mine was a severe alcoholic until one day I found the booze. And I went, I had no idea. I had no idea. Yes, no. And those are those are things that need to be addressed not just at home, but at work at on a, on a whole person level. Yes, it's not just now, I want to go back a little bit. You know, and I don't want to dig in too much to anything that you don't want to talk about. But you know, you were telling your story, and then you kind of jumped into the business sense of it. Obviously, your story, you know, has had a huge impact on, on you. And at some point, you had that aha moment where you went, I want to, I want to beat this. And I don't know if that started with you working with a coach and thinking I can overcome this or I can work through and I don't know that I'm using the right terminology. So forgive me if I'm being naive here. But you know, I don't know if it's, if you're a recovering if you're, I don't know what how you use those terms. So again, at some point, you had to have had an aha moment and go, Okay, I I want to do better. I want to be better for the people I work with. And for my family. Do you have a moment that it kind of happened for you, when you when you dug in and decided? I'm gonna, you know, and how was that affecting? Was it affecting your work? Was it affecting your family?

Kevin White 21:36

Wow. So those are that's a lot of questions. Sorry, I'm sorry, I do that a lot, where I asked like eight questions at the same time. Let me think so. Yes, there, there's, there was more than one, but for sure. My wife is pretty much all of them. Okay. So if you were just imagine for a second, the person who's listening, right? Having, especially if you're a woman having a relationship with an addict, that where they're not available to you really mentally. Okay. So, because addicts are, in our minds, you know, we're thinking about way too many things that have nothing to do with reality, how we're going to look, find other people how we're going to cope, especially with me with her. Since this type of addiction affects our relationship. As a married couple, there was a lot that certainly I didn't understand. And she didn't understand either about the ins and outs of our relationship. So the big awakening points were when she was like, even though she was aware of what was going on to a certain extent, where she would just be like, Okay, I'm not accepting this type of behavior, this selfish behavior, let's just call it that I'm not accepting this selfish behavior. I think, I think I would probably go with two points that made a difference. And they were both related to her. One is when she committed to me that she wasn't going to leave the relationship. But two, when she said, I'm not going to tolerate emotional abuse, or anything that has to do with you being selfish, right, because this is about us having healthy relationships. Right. So he things were the main points that led to healing, if that makes sense.

Leighann Lovely 23:36

It absolutely does. And I would assume that at that point, you kind of were scrambling around saying okay, now what, how do I, how do I do better?

Kevin White 23:47

Oh, for sure. And like, and especially in one particular moment that I remember, although, this really didn't I think there was more than one right? But anyway, there's a couple times where I had to choose Okay, I want to be I can be, I can say go live in my brother's house who's a is an alcoholic, or I can choose my family. I have six boys. I didn't through all of this. We have a two year old and all the way up to 19. But um, I had to basically work through those. Well, it's a very extensive process that we can't obviously get into just because of time but. I had to choose between two I just want to be a bachelor living or you know, with my brother and just have very unhealthy relationships or do I want a future with my soulmate? You know, with someone that I really appreciate and, and love to have in my life along with my kids. What do I want us? What do I want them to see? Do I want to see them? Or what I do I want them to see me give up or do I want to be there for them if they're having to dress them like that? And so, I mean, as simple as it sounds like, there's an obvious answer here, right? In those moments, it was actually hard. Because of how messed up I was right, in my mind, but, um, but I do think it wasn't like all the excuses I had about how I was actually fine and didn't have a problem or the things that held me back, right. So, I don't know if that answers all your questions.

Leighann Lovely 25:38

It does. I mean, it paints a picture to where you're headed now.

Kevin White 25:45

Yes.

Leighann Lovely 25:46

So tell me about that.

Kevin White 25:49

Yeah, so I've been working with my friends. And actually, I've been doing some life coaching for addicts. And then I've been working with business people who are my friends. Originally, I was thinking that I would work with business and like, with teams, with leadership teams, with business owners, and support them, and like, kind of what you talked about. Whereas they don't always understand where their employees are coming from. And they get into a situation where there is a conflict, or there is something that they don't completely understand. And I'd be there to support both sides. But the goal is to support the business, right, because it's greater than any one party. However, along the journey, I had, I definitely had success with other addicts. In particular, one man, that man, he just kind of had the same thing happened, where his wife's like, I've had enough of this. And our wives knew each other. And we started working. And like a year and a half later, he was completely different. He changed his career. He was just awesome. And I was so much fun. I was like, Man, I'd love to do more of this. But I didn't think I could put both of them together. But as I've been talking with people about business, people that are addicts, it's like everyone's coming to me and saying, Yes, this is the thing. I'm not planning to go around and tell a bunch of people about the people I'm working with in the future, right, because this is a private thing. And that's, they have to do that they have to tell you, but I mean, what we're really dealing with here with a lot of this mental stuff is the shame of what's going on in our lives, you know, the things that the dirty part of our lives that we don't want to share with people. And what that what that does in the workplace, is it's, it's making us have fake relationships, right? Because we're not being vulnerable about who we really are. And as soon as we start, we flip the switch, and we start really telling people about whatever it is, that is a problem in our life, or at least a struggle in our life. Okay? The more that we find connections with people that can help us to be the best version of ourselves. And the more we can support each other,

Leighann Lovely 28:25

Right? Once you humanize somebody, once you become vulnerable, and they become human in your eyes, and no longer this shell of a person or the ideal human, you take them off the pedestal of being perfect. All of the sudden, all of the the fakeness gets washed away. And I will tell you that there are many people who in my career that I've looked at and went wow, that he has to be perfect, because he's so successful and he's so and I idolized. And instead of, you know, having, and then when you find out like, Oh, he's got, you know, this or he's getting a divorce or you, you go oh, well, he's, he's just human and you humanize these people, and all of the sudden the fear of well, what if I screw up in front of them? Or what if I, you know, it washes away and people can actually then build genuine connections with each other. It's an amazing thing. Yes, it absolutely is an amazing thing. And it needs to happen more. And I'm not again, I'm not saying that everybody should go and dump their bag of laundry out on the conference room table. You know, again, it just it needs to happen naturally. People can build more genuine relationships, by being more human with who they truly are by being authentic. And I think that we all have seen that over this last 20 months, 22 months, whatever, whatever it is now. And this is just another step in that, the world, the world needs help right now.

Kevin White 30:14

You know, we all have. I mean life is is a challenge, it's also a great opportunity. I think there's, I think that there's a huge benefit to what's happening. I shouldn't say a benefit. It's a potential benefit. What's happening with all of this change in the work place? And where we're working in that the hybrid working and all of those things? I think it gives us an opportunity to provide new tools for employees and for for business people. I don't know, I don't have the answers. Right. And what that looks like I have, I think coaching is one tool that could be helpful, but I think that the answer is probably different for most businesses, like there's, you know, like, maybe your HR team is already well situated and has good relationships with the company, and can offer more around mental support, you would probably know more about that kind of stuff than I would. Or maybe you need. Maybe there's like having someone that has that role in the business around mental health or? I don't know, I don't know what it looks like. Like, that's, I think that's the beauty of what we get to explore together in the business community is how do we, we have the opportunity? How do we take that opportunity? And turn it into something?

Leighann Lovely 31:41

Yeah, no, I, it's, it's a scary thought. It's a scary thought to think, one, let me back up. It's, it's amazing to think that we could have somebody who's specifically hired at a company to handle mental health or handle employee wellness or, and it's also a scary thought, because I don't know that if they're employed by the company, a lot of employees wouldn't be completely honest at this at this time in the world, because they'd be like, Well, I'm not going to go in and tell them about my whatever it might be my addiction to this, I'm going to get fired. But maybe at some point in the world, we'll be able to get to that point where, where that would never happen, where a company truly cares enough that they'll say, there is you know, whatever you say to this person cannot be, you know, disclosed cannot go. But then you always run that fine line, if if a company is aware that somebody is addicted to heroin, and they're responsible for driving a forklift, or, Yeah, where's the liability fall? You know, there's always there's always something so that and that's why a lot of employees are so scared of, you know, I'm an alcoholic, but I have a job that requires me to use equipment of some kind. And that's that fear will always stay or resonate with them? And who do they go to? How do they get help? If it's through a company?

Kevin White 33:25

That's a good point? Was I live in this alternative universe?

Leighann Lovely 33:30

No. Again, this is my HR hat going on, you know, saying,you know, the legal aspect of things where sometimes I hate that it rears its ugly head.

Kevin White 33:41

Yeah, I think there's, I think there's a couple things in the small business, you're gonna you, you can do, it doesn't have to be public support, right? Like this can be even just people that are mentors within the business, that are the under like, especially people that have gone through something, and can from the sponsorship of the business, but from a more private approach, right, like, they don't even necessarily have to know the details, they could just encourage you to get help in certain way, like, or talk to this person. Right. So I think there's a lot of more informal ways we can, we can work together. But I also think I want to acknowledge some CEOs of companies, you know, not necessarily your fortune 500, but that are out there making products and running businesses that are coming out. Right, and I think that some of those employees are then gonna under have an opportunity to say, Oh, the leader is acknowledging his problem. And this comes down to a question you said earlier, which is, you know, from an attic standpoint, is it recovering? Is it healing? Is it healed? I believe that we can heal. Okay, so I know that there's some differences, and especially the addict community around us like because the 12 step says, you know, you're recovering for the rest of your life. I truly believe in healing. That's been my experience, I've had a lot of help. I've had a lot of people that have been involved. But what I'm saying is, is that, mainly, the main point is that if more people come out, then it doesn't always have to be like, we're standing in the conference room and everyone, we all share our work. That's not appropriate. That's right. We can create groups subgroups, that aren't necessarily maybe even the liability of the company, sponsor some of the more popular issues that we could support each other in. And maybe that's just not appropriate in certain companies. Right, like, right. I don't know that this is for everyone. I'm not sure what the answers are.

Leighann Lovely 35:54

So I'm not just I'm not saying that this has to be publicly acknowledged at a company, nor am I saying that you can't help a company heal, if there is multiple people that you want to work with. Or if you're going into work with a company coaching around this subject, it's, again, when my you know, my comment about liability and everything else that was if you are an employee of a company addressing that, as Yeah, as an outside person going in, you're not obligated to the company to report anything. You don't work for that company. But I think that what, what you're talking about having a having people be able to come to you and work with you. And have it be a service that a company offers to their employees. That's an that's an amazing service that that could be provided. Because some people, they're not comfortable walking into an AA meeting, or an NA meeting or an I don't know, all the acronyms for all of the different addictions that are out there any, you know, at this time, but some people that's not that's not their jam. Some people don't like group meetings like that some people, you know, just won't do that type of work. Some people may prefer having a private individual coach. And I have to be honest, I've talked to a lot of people about going and getting individual counseling through a mental health professional. And there's a waiting list right now. Yes, to become a new patient months and months out. Yeah. I mean, the world needs more people, like you who are willing to have the conversations about it, because you've experienced it. What better way to learn, what better way to heal than through and with somebody who has gone through it. I would rather sit down and talk with somebody who has experienced what I'm going through than somebody who's read a book about what I've gone through.

Kevin White 38:14

Yeah, I mean, I definitely don't want to discourage or like, like, sometimes therapy is appropriate. Okay. Especially when it's but I'm, like, I'm not trying to. I'm just thinking like, people are unique. I think that what I really want to underscore about what you just said is for me, and I think a lot of certain types of addictions, there's like a lot of shame. Some are more inch. A, like it's more common that well, I'm addicted to cigarettes, big deal, right? Oh, I lifted the food. Big deal. Alcohol is a little more shameful. But, you know, there's some addictions like definitely pornography addiction, is there's a lot of shame related to it. Okay, it's, we're embarrassed about that we're doing that and who in the world wants to talk about it? So I think that, for me as an introvert, my journey has been with not just my coach who was other there I had someone at several people that were helping me, okay. I, yes, I think that having a more one on one work is a thing and can be done in mainly, if I want if I can just speak to the addicts for a second, if anyone's listening or if you know other than that. Our main problem is shame about coming out and saying, Hey, I'm an addict, right? And that's why I don't want to get help. So the biggest thing is if you can tell someone and if you can tell someone that already knows what you're going through, that's great as well. But if you want to make a change in your life, life and I'm speaking to someone that that is affected by addiction. Tell someone, all right, just get the courage to tell someone, what you find is, we're all human, we all make mistakes. And most of the time, people want to be there for you, it might not be that they can help you, but there might not someone that can. So I think it's important to just get over that it's gonna hurt. It's painful, shameful thing. But you're gonna feel so much better when you start to heal from it.

Leighann Lovely 40:34

Thank you. I mean, and I encourage anybody who is listening to this, who is interested in getting help, and I want to, I want to make sure that my comment was not misunderstood. I am not discouraging, going to a psychiatrist or therapist in any way, shape or form. Something like this is an amazing thing that you're doing it, it truly is. And, you know, I'm going to flip this over to you to do a little self-promotion. You know, if somebody is interested in reaching out to you, and wants to have a conversation about this, how can they reach out to you? How can they, you know, learn more about you?

Kevin White 41:12

Sure, you can email me, it's probably the easiest. I'm on LinkedIn, Kevin White. But email me directly is maybe the easiest way to get to me. My email address is Kevin, at the White group.us. So Kevin@thewhitegroup.us

Leighann Lovely 41:30

Excellent. Now we're at time, but I have one more question. This is the question of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career, that made a huge difference in your life or career paths. When would that be and why?

Kevin White 41:48

My biggest impact was I spoke earlier about this consultant that I worked with for in consultancy I worked for in Madison, Wisconsin. And I that was the biggest impact in my career. And it was really, because in that business, they were completely open, from top to bottom. I'll just say it in this way. I had a client that I worked for, that I was a friend with before I started at this business. And two years later, I moved on to a different job. And he asked me, So did you sell the company you were working for. And I'm like, I didn't own that company. I just worked for that company. And so this company that I worked for, really established a very strong vision. They, they were open with everything from all the financials to what their goals were, everything was open. And we had so much fun together. I saw the business owner that believes in people that believed in what he was providing to the community, and was clear on his vision and what he wanted to create. And he was he was kind of like an economist, so it was his thing. The money you know, was was something that he could project and think about and yeah, anyway, so that was the biggest impact on me is like a business owner that really believed in people really invested in his people and invested in his business and really invested in his client relationships.

Leighann Lovely 43:34

That's awesome. And isn't it funny how we all, you know, this so far this season, every person I've talked to it always comes back to somebody who just truly honestly, cares genuinely about people. It's I mean, that's what it's all about.

Leighann Lovely 43:56

Well, Kevin, I have truly enjoyed this conversation. And I have to really commend you on being so open and vulnerable and honest with us today. So thank you so very much.

Kevin White 44:09

Yeah, thank you for having me on. And I knew we would have a great conversation.

Leighann Lovely 44:15

Yeah, that'd be that's been awesome.

Kevin White 44:18

All right.

Leighann Lovely 44:20

Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, too, follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Kevin White Linkedin - linkedin.com/in/kevin-g-white

Kevin White E-mail Adress - Kevin@thewhitegroup.us

Website, The White Group - https://www.kevingwhite.com/

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What is happening in a virtual world with staffing companies and how are they pivoting to keep up with the ever-changing times. What's next and how do they stay on the cutting edge?

Amy Bingham, President of Bingham Consulting Professionals

Leighann Lovely 0:15 Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners, and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us, like us, and share us

Leighann Lovely 1:04 I'm very excited to welcome my guest today, Amy Bingham. With a career spanning over 25 years in the staffing industry, including 15 years consulting to staffing firms of all sizes and sectors. Amy Bingham works with owners and executives to increase sales effectiveness, positioning them for success to build value in their company's strategic planning, standardizing processes in alignment with their latest best practices of high growth firms, training, sales and recruitment teams, and coaching staffing leaders are key competencies of Bingham Consulting. It is Amy's broad exposure to best practices of high-performance staffing firms that her clients value most. Early in her career working for a global firm provided the foundation for achieving excellence as one of seven elite performers today continual research on emerging industry trends and process enhancements equipped Amy to help her consulting clients differentiate and stay ahead of the competition. Passionate about supporting and success of staffing leaders, Amy launched the Millennial Mentors program for staffing leaders in 2018. By working one on one and in group settings with high potential managers and executives. Amy transfers her knowledge to equip them to effectively lead staffing teams to drive optimal business results and migrate the risk of costly turnover. Amy is an active member of the American Staffing Association and sits on the women in leadership counselor. She is a highly rated past presenter at the AASA staffing world and many other national state and regional conferences. In addition to her responsibilities, Amy is a leadership coach to MBA students at Rollins Crummer Graduate School of Business where she enjoys setting future leaders up for success in the corporate world.

Leighann Lovely 3:03 Amy, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to talk with me today. I'm very excited to have this conversation.

Amy Bingham 3:12 Thanks, Leighann. I'm happy to be here.

Leighann Lovely 3:15 So why don't you start off by telling me a little bit about yourself.

Amy Bingham 3:21 Okay, so I have had a long career in the staffing industry. I started my run at a national firm way back when over 25 years ago and have been consulting to primarily small to midsize firms for the last 15 years.

Leighann Lovely 3:36 Excellent. So you've had quite a run in really in the staffing industry. So you've been in it for years.

Amy Bingham 3:45 Absolutely, My practice focuses on advisory services. I do a lot of leadership coaching. It's something that's sorely needed in the industry. So I'm having a lot of fun with that. But you know, your typical strategic planning, I do some training. It's just been great to have the variety of working with a lot of different firms and learning new perspectives.

Leighann Lovely 4:09 Great. So what's your, and you kind of touched on this a little bit, but what are the types of staffing companies that you typically work with?

Amy Bingham 4:20 Yeah, so there is a type there are what some 39,000 staffing offices in the US. There's a lot of people that help but that what we call the Mom and Pop sector needs a lot of help. These are typically recruiters or salespeople that work for bigger firms and decided they wanted to do something entrepreneurial. You know this is the, I'm just going to have a shingle outside of a door and start recruiting. And so their business grows to maybe it's even a million, two million or five million and beyond and they start to realize I need some structure. I need some help with this. Now I have a business. It's not just me and the pilot team. So I work across all sectors staffing, light industrial ministry, active health care, engineering, I've got legal, I've got clients all over the board. But primarily, I work with some startups, but usually firms under 5 million and then all the way up to we'll see my largest client is right around 100 million, but the sweet spot is probably 10 to 25 million. So you know, that $10 million for that wants to get to 25. And the 25 want to get to 50 and beyond. And that's what I like to do. I'm a sales effectiveness consultant. So totally front office girl. I'm all about let's get revenue in the door and gross profit.

Leighann Lovely 5:53 Yes. And you and I actually had the opportunity to work together many years ago, which was very exciting and very beneficial. And I truly enjoyed that. So there has been, so much that has changed over obviously the last 20 months, or how has your job changed? Because of that, and has there been a shift in the needs of some of your clients that you work with?

Amy Bingham 6:19 Good question, Yeah. So the interesting thing is, I had made a strategic decision to travel less. So long story short, I got introduced to zoom back in 2019, early 2019. And I embraced the technology. And I said You know what, I can work effectively, I can certainly do coaching calls, I can even do training in bite-sized segments, right from my home office. So I had already made that transition, I moved my clients to a virtual environment. And when the pandemic hit, my life didn't really change that much at all, because I was already operating this way. That said, the needs of my clients obviously changed. A lot of people were trying to cope with remote work and how to manage a remote team. And I think that was very challenging for leadership to understand. If they can't see, in this industry, we're used to having people in a bullpen and have an eye on him, for the most part. And so a lot of the owners and executives had a real hard time with the fact that their staff was not under one roof where they could see them. And we're surprised to see, pleasantly surprised to see that not only did productivity not suffer it, actually. So that was a radical shift for the industry. I mean, I remember the days where absolutely no one I mean, most of my clients are no one works from home. That's just not how we operate. We're all in the office together, we collaborate. So it was forced, and they learn that, but that brought new challenges.

Leighann Lovely 8:06 Right. Absolutely. Are you still seeing that there are companies out there that are still really struggling with moving to a remote workforce? I mean, obviously, I've come from manufacturing. A lot of the candidates or a lot of those industries rely on people to walk in the door

Amy Bingham 8:29 They do so it's harder for a light industrial firm that relies on walk-in traffic where there's a lot of go to work immediately. No interview required types of orders, right, high volume orders, that can be a challenge. It can be done. I have clients doing it. But there was a lot of reluctance in the LI sector, particularly for that reason now not so much in professional staffing. In professional staff. It was a pretty easy transition in employee base in professional staffing really embraced that because they were already these folks in the industry, in recruiter seasons and salespeople. These are this is young millennials and Gen Z now entering the workforce, and they're all about flexibility. So they're actually less inclined, far less inclined to take a job where there is no option to work remotely. Right. and actually, I had to have a lot of conversations with clients who were still having a problem getting there. We still wanted people in the office. I said, Listen, it's a candidates market anyway. You're going to take already narrowed people down further by requiring them to come to the office five days a week. Not a good idea. So that is still evolving, but yeah, in the industrial sector, it can be challenged. There's no doubt about that.

Leighann Lovely 9:58 Yeah, absolutely. And you kind of, answered a little bit about what my next question was, what do you see for the future of general labor staffing versus the professional staffing side? You know, how are you overcoming some of those challenges with the people that you work with? And I think you kind of answered a little bit of that.

Amy Bingham 10:18 You know, I did, but there is a huge push to the digitization of staffing, as you're probably aware, right? We're using artificial intelligence more, we're automating redundant tasks. I mean, on the candidate side, the closer that we can get to one-click apply, the better. Right? Now it's right for a staffing firm. And then you've got so you have to re-engineer your application flow your workforce, and then you've got abandon rates that are exceptionally high, but people are very impatient, they encountered any challenge at all applying for a job, they're just going to abandon and go somewhere else. Right? So staffing firms that have been historically high touch and not embrace technology are really struggling with this. And I'm doing a lot of work in this area with them. So you've probably heard a lot of people looking at their tech stack, right? How are they set up? From a technology perspective? What integrates with what is it smooth, it's cumbersome. But I think for light industrial staffing companies, that's a game of speed, though very often the first that first company, if there are all these multiple companies were done these job orders, the first company fills the order, that's a business. So if you are, if you have a cumbersome application process that slows you down, you're going to be more likely to be beaten by the competition that has embraced technology. But that said, there's a lot of recruiting technologies. There's a lot of help in the industry to get people through that. But it is overwhelming. I just had an email earlier today, actually from clients that is completely overwhelming. They're converting from one ATS to another and she knows that's overwhelming enough anyway. But the integrations piece is just mind-boggling. Right? So the grappling with that change.

Leighann Lovely 12:25 I've seen so many apps popping up of you know, new apps popping up of this is an app where they can do a one-touch apply all their information is there and it's expediting these processes. It's very interesting, everything that's popping up now.

Amy Bingham 12:40 Yes, so it's great for the candidate. But for those running and working in a staffing company, you've got to evolve, right? Your processes if you don't, like I said to use on Steam,

Leighann Lovely 12:53 Right. Very interesting, very interesting stuff. What do you think the greatest need of some of the people that you are working with right now, a lot of your clients, what do you think that you know, or what are they engaging you for?

Amy Bingham 13:09 So usually, I will be working with an owner that is sort of living on an island, right? That's what they describe to me. The typical call that I'll get is, hey, I built my firm, 5 million, 10 million, even 25 million. And I've figured it out along the way. But I don't know what I don't know. So I want to work with an advisor who's plugged into all the latest best practices so that I'm not, I don't feel like I'm living, you know, in a vacuum here or on an island. Right. So it's a lot of advisory work. And I have a very flexible plan where we've talked a couple of times a month, my client brings the agenda. So whatever's on his or her mind is what we're going to talk about. I have more structured plans where let's run hard and run fast. For three months, we're going to talk every week I'm going to give you work to do in between, it'll say you have a major initiative to standardize the process, right. So my scope of work may be to help them with that initiative and hold them accountable to getting that done. So I have a three-month plan. And then I have there is a great need, like I said earlier for leadership training, leadership development. As we've got baby boomers retiring, they've got to have successors to their firms. So that's the reason I built the millennial mentors program or staffing leaders. I initially built it as a one-to-one T program for usually the children of an owner. That was the intended successors get them and I worked with them for a year to get them up to speed get them ready to run the business. But it took it from one to one to one to many, I still do one on one coaching but I do far more good. Coaching, open enrollment. My next class starts on January 13. People can literally click and register and I end up in with 15 people in the class from all staff and verticals, all levels of leadership, from owners to brand new managers. And everybody learns, they learn from me, they learn from each other. So it's really a great program. I've been very excited to launch that. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 15:26 And I was gonna ask you about that too. Tell me a little bit more about that. So specifically, what is that you know, based on, or what is that about?

Amy Bingham 15:37 I have, when I built millennial mentors, it was on five, the Bible nine, I call them nine disciplines of a great staffing industry leader. And so in my one on one coaching, I'm working through all nine, over the course of a year, I pulled out for the group program, the three most critical leading people, leading process and leading results. And over an 11 week period of time, on a one-hour zoom call every week, we all get on the phone, I teach them something in that discipline. I give them an assignment, they go do it. It's all experiential learning. They come back the following week, we debrief as a group, it's open mic. That's where the real learning comes in. How did you do on your assignment? What did you learn that I teach them something else, and I give them another assignment. So that goes on for 11 weeks.

Leighann Lovely 16:38 That's awesome. Because I like the idea that it's at all levels, because somebody who's, just coming in talking with people who have been in the industry for years can learn something from them, at the same time that they're learning something from you. And people who have been in the industry for years, who sometimes get set in their ways can learn new ideas from somebody who may be coming in with fresh ideas. That's such a that's such an amazing way to, you know, bounce ideas up, you know, back and forth. I mean, it's just, it's great. And I mean, the best way to create a great environment is to train the leaders.

Amy Bingham 17:20 Yeah, it starts with leader. Absolutely. People leave bad managers. They'll even stay in a bad job. Right? If they're fiercely loyal to their manager. Yeah. So it really does start with the leaders. And you made a good point. I just got an email earlier. I'm wrapping up my q4 class right now. From I got an email from an EVP who's in the class. And she said, You know, every single week, there have been great takeaways, she said, some are good reminders. But many are new things, or new ways of doing things that I've really never thought through. This is an executive vice president of a midsize firm. Right? So I have I have that person. And then I have somebody just promoted into a recruiting manager job and now has six recruiters reporting there. So and everything in between all levels in between, right

Leighann Lovely 18:11 That's awesome. That's amazing. It's, well, it's a lot of somebody listening who wants to check that out. I know that you are promoting it on LinkedIn. I'm sure they also find it on your website.

Amy Bingham 18:24 website - https://binghamcp.com/ click Services and look at leadership development. And you can download the agenda and the program overview.

Leighann Lovely 18:37 Excellent, So here's my final question. I'm going to be asking everybody this season, this question. So I'm excited to hear you know what your answer is, if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be and why?

Amy Bingham 18:58 So I'm in the way back to actually pre staffing career when I was in retail management. I had a boss who was just as almost gypsy like, she came from outside the the industry, industry being retail, but she came in with a lot of fresh ideas. I remember my first one on one with me she sat down, and she said, Okay, so Amy, you're a department manager in cosmetics. How do you like it? Love it. I'm going on and on. She said, What do you want to do next? And I said, I don't know. No one's ever asked me that before. Now I'm in my early 20s at the time. She said, How about my job? Do you want my job? You want to be a group manager? And I said, I would love to be in your job. I don't have the slightest idea how to get there. She said we will get you there and I'll be darned if she didn't mentor me. And a year later, I got her job. She got promoted to store manager. So this is for Macy's store, right. So what I learned from that why that was so pivotal is I really learned. First of all, if you have a great mentor who will invest time and energy in you, you can go places. And I think we've got to start that dialogue with very junior people. To help them understand this isn't it for you, you can do a whole lot more. So then, when I was ready to leave retail behind, I did the same thing. At then Sperion all that interim services, pre Sperion was on Ranstad. Same thing started as a seven branch manager and up the track and found sought out good mentors talked about what I wanted to do next. So that but that foundation came from that one, group manager in retail.

Leighann Lovely 20:54 That's awesome. That's amazing. And that's, really a learning experience. For every single person who's listening to this, no matter what level they're at. You cannot get to a point in your career, that you can't ask for a mentor. And you can get to a point in your career, where you can offer to mentor somebody. I mean, that should really be the true takeaway from what you just said, because we all have so much to offer to other people. And we still all have something new to learn at any point in our lives or careers. So that's amazing. And you truly, you obviously took great advantage of that, because you've now run your own consulting firm. You know, I've, like I mentioned earlier had the opportunity to learn from you take a training course from you, eventually work under you, many years ago, but it is. Yes, you are a brilliant woman. And I really, really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me today.

Amy Bingham 22:03 Oh, yeah, you're so nice. Thank you so much for inviting me, and all the best to you and your career. I see you just climbing and climbing so really excited for you.

Amy Bingham 22:15 Thank you so much. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Show notes

Amy Bingham

LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/amybingham

Website - https://binghamcp.com/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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This is the time to make a change, but here is one story you have to hear! Alejandra Frago and her roommate moved halfway across the country with no jobs. Goodnews, they had no trouble finding them. Tune in to hear her story and get some great do's and don't when you are interviewing.

Leighann Lovely 0:15 Let's talk. HR is a place for HR business owners to share experience, talking about what's working, what's not how we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift and what people want generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us and we're very excited to have my guest on today.

Leighann Lovely 1:07 Alejandra Fraga moved in September of 2021. From California to Wisconsin, her and her roommate decided that it was time to make a change and without a job she made a move halfway across the country. You're going to hear her tell her story of what it was like to look for a job, how she found an amazing position. Alejandra is now a member of Rogue Wave Marketing where she is the Executive Assistant to the CEO. Alejandra is a can-do person who specializes in creative content including iMovie and storytelling. She pays attention to detail and doesn't miss a beat. She is fluent in English and Spanish. Alejandra is extremely passionate about helping others when she is away from work. She enjoys writing poetry and loves music. So I'm very excited to have her on today.

Leighann Lovely 1:57 Welcome, Alejandra. It's so nice to have you here talking with me today. Why don't you start off with telling me a little bit about yourself?

Alejandra Fraga 2:05 Yeah, well. Hi, Leighann. Thank you for having me here today. My name is Alejandra Fraga like you mentioned earlier, I am from San Diego, California. I was living there. I mean, I've lived there my whole life. But I traveled up north for college. And then I moved to the Bay Area for a year. And then once the pandemic hit, I ended up moving back down to Southern California. And then I suddenly realized that I wanted a drastic change in my life. So I moved over to Wisconsin. Now I am living in Milwaukee and I am currently working for a marketing company. And that's just a little bit about myself and my background and where I come from.

Leighann Lovely 2:52 So from California to Wisconsin, and yes, when did you make that move?

Alejandra Fraga 2:59 So I made that move in late September. Okay. So late September, I decided to make the move on over to Wisconsin. One of my previous roommates/friends from college had actually brought up the idea of moving to Milwaukee many years ago when we were in college. And at first I thought she was crazy, because I had never heard of Milwaukee. So she kind of started bringing it up year after year. It kind of started growing on me a little and I started looking into it. And I was like, Okay, this isn't too bad. Eventually, I made my way over here to visit and check it out. And I honestly ended up really, really liking it. And so now we're both here in Milwaukee. And it's been a wonderful. I want to say three months. Is it? Yeah, a little bit. Almost. It's about to be three months. So it's been great. The Winter hasn't hit us yet. So I'm looking forward to that. But we'll see how that goes.

Leighann Lovely 4:02 Right. You haven't experienced what it's like to truly live in Wisconsin. Yeah. Oh, no. So had you visited here and experienced, you know, the Wisconsin life? What really drove that decision to move across country?

Alejandra Fraga 4:19 Yeah, so one, it's way cheaper than San Diego. And two, I really, really liked how you still have the big city feel with a slower pace. I feel when I was living back home in California, I was living in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley. And then I was living in, in San Diego, California. So those were very much more fast-paced environments. And I think I was personally at a point in my life where I wanted to slow down a little bit and just grab a hold of myself first and then be able to get to that point in my life. And so that's what drew me here honestly, now being here, me and my roommate, we're just talking about this, but we love how much personality this place has. It honestly blows my mind every time, I'm living in downtown area, So when I walk out, I kind of feel like I'm walking through like a Hallmark movie. So it's honestly been treating us very well. That's kind of what drew me over here to Milwaukee.

Leighann Lovely 5:26 Excellent. And so when you came down, when you move, did you have a job? Or? Did you just make the move and decide, hey, we're gonna see what happens.

Alejandra Fraga 5:38 Yeah, so I actually had no job lined up. And I just kind of had to honestly have some faith in myself and be like, Okay, let's do it. Because it's now or never. And I had saved up some money from my previous job that I was working at in San Diego. So I had that to back me up for a little bit. But I eventually knew that I needed to get on it. Because money just goes. So yeah, I came here with absolutely no job, I kind of had an open mind as to what jobs I wanted to get. I wasn't very specific, or I didn't have a specific job in mind. But like I said, no job, no family just kind of made the move over, very spontaneously.

Leighann Lovely 6:22 Right. And well, this is the time period in which you're able to do that, there are so many jobs available. And I guess taking that leap of faith right now would be the best time because we definitely have jobs, we are lacking people, good people. And so tell me, how did you start looking for work? Where do you even begin?

Alejandra Fraga 6:46 Yeah, so I started I want to say it was my second week living here in Milwaukee. My first week, I was just focused on getting settled into my apartment, and getting everything just just ready for myself. And then during that second week, I was like, Okay, it's time to go. I was like, I need to find a job. So indeed was the website where I was constantly on looking for jobs. Yeah, I was I was constantly on Indeed, just looking for jobs applying. I had previous teaching experience. So I knew that teaching. I mean, it's kind of a high-demand job, anywhere. So I was applying to a couple of teaching jobs. But I, in the back of my head, I kind of knew that I didn't want to go that route. I enjoy teaching, but it wasn't necessarily my passion or what drove me. And so I would apply for those jobs. But like I said, I already had the idea in the back of my head that those weren't necessarily the jobs that I wanted, ideally, but they were there just in case to back me up. And so yeah, I was, like I said constantly on Indeed, just applying my way through through the week. And like I said, it was pretty much a full time job having to find a job.

Leighann Lovely 7:58 Right. And everybody that I talked to when you're looking for work, it is a full-time job. I remember back in the day and was starting off my mentor, then actually my dad had said to me, he goes you know, it can get hard when you're especially if you're sitting in your apartment, you're sitting he goes, change the scenery, go to a coffee shop, sit in a coffee shop. And at that time I was looking in one ads. I was I was it was newspapers that I was looking at. I don't know if some people will go Oh, yeah, I remember that other people go, what does that mean? Right. But yeah, it is a full-time job. I'm just trying to get in touch with the right people get your resume in front of the right people. Exactly. So what was the next step from there? When you truly you know, started to get those interviews? You know, what were some of your, your non-negotiables for, you know, position some of the negotiables? And how did you really start to narrow that list down for what you wanted, and the perfect position for you?

Alejandra Fraga 9:02 Well, I'll back up just a little bit. But after applying for jobs, I think it was after the first week, I had not heard back from one job. And I was honestly terrified. I was like, Oh my gosh, did I make the wrong decision? Why did I move over here? I honestly had so many thoughts running through my head. And it wasn't until I think the second week that the ball kind of started rolling and we started hearing back a little bit more from employers just to answer your question that you asked earlier. I honestly wasn't I wouldn't say I'm too picky. I wasn't necessarily looking for something specific. Of course, I wanted, you know, a job that or employer who really valued their employees and who had a strong mission and who held that mission very close to that to themselves, but I wasn't very specific. I know there's some people who are very specific for in looking for benefits where I think in my roll as to where I was, like I said, I was a little scared. I wasn't hearing back. So I was like, Okay, let's just, you know, let's just apply, apply, apply. I'm in a new state, I moved across the country, I can't not have a job. So I wasn't necessarily too picky with that. But I guess that that's my answer for that.

Leighann Lovely 10:17 Okay. But I mean, and as far as what, and when I say non-negotiables, there had to have been a certain threshold as far as I have to make X amount. Oh, yeah. You know, I have to be passionate about Yeah, the work that I'm doing, whether that be, you know, XYZ, so there had to have been something that that drove you to have interest in certain things. And you said, I was applying to some childcare I was applying to or, I'm sorry, not child. My apologies. So, you know, what, what were those? What interested you or what drove you to apply to the jobs that you were applying to,

Alejandra Fraga 10:57 Like you said, a pay was definitely a huge one. So I wasn't applying to anything under like 18. And below, I wanted, definitely something above that pay range. So that was a huge factor. Aside from that, let me think I was looking for a, I want to say hybrid position, or more so of a more remote position, just because I am newer to the area. So I wasn't very familiar with, you know, my surroundings. And I know I've heard from many people here that winter gets very, very tough. So I was like, Okay, if that's the case, then I think I want to work from home. I mean, initially, the job that I have now is a hybrid, and I am extremely thankful for that. Because getting out of the house has been so so helpful to my well being and just my mental state. And, in general, when I first came into the office, I honestly was a little taken back, because I hadn't socialized that much in so long, to the point where when I would come home, my social battery was like a 2%. And I was done for the day. And so that was definitely I mean, it was it was a drastic change for me, especially just being at home all day. And you know, just applying to jobs, applying to jobs, and just literally being with myself and my roommate. But now looking back, I am extremely thankful that I took on that hybrid position. But yeah, that's that's one of the things that I was looking for when applying for jobs. I know my roommate, she was very specific for him looking for a specific pay range. Aside from also looking at benefit packages. I know that she was very specific with with what she wanted in that sense, where I wasn't necessarily as picky. I think specifically as well. Because the jobs that I was applying to, I think I was a little I would say, Well, I don't I don't want to like bring myself down, but I was a little under qualified for those positions. And so because of that I wasn't too too picky in that sense. Because I was working for I mean, back in the day, I was teaching and I was taking on those kinds of roles where as to the new jobs that I was applying to sure I had teaching positions, but I was also applying to a lot of job positions that were not within my scope. And when I when I refer to that, I mean, like marketing manager or or things like that, that I honestly hadn't necessarily gotten a lot of experience. And and so that's why, like I said, I wasn't necessarily too picky with that.

Leighann Lovely 13:23 And it's interesting that you say that, you know, you said I don't want to bring myself down. But you know, I've talked with a lot of people who are coming from like a teaching background or were teachers, there are so many of the skills that you learn from that, that are so transferable because, I mean, honestly, teachers have to have so many qualities that so many people are I mean, patients, there are a lot of people out there that I mean, that is really just something that I I struggle with on a daily basis to have a level of patience that you have to have a lot of those skills are extremely transferable. And I've talked with a lot of people who have said, I'm, I've been a teacher for many years, what can I do? Like, okay, well write down all the skills that you have, because Oh, my God, there's a ton of soft skills in that. There are a ton of technical skills in that. So don't ever sell yourself short on that one.

Alejandra Fraga 14:17 Yeah, that's something I'm definitely learning how to do. I think it's just valuing myself as not just a human being because I feel like I'm very good at in that aspect. But when it comes to valuing myself as an employee and learning what I bring to the table, I think these past two months by working at rogue wave marketing, I've honestly been so impressed with myself. I was just looking back today and I was like, Oh my gosh, like I'm really doing all of this with like I said, you know, very minimal experience, but it's all those transferable skills, like you mentioned, that do transfer on over so it's something that I'm kind of just learning how to reflect on and analyze and like I said just kind of barely myself a little bit more than that sense

Leighann Lovely 15:00 Well, that's great you're working for, you know, I know the company a little bit I've met the the CEO that you're that you support. She's an amazing person. So I think that you're, you're in the right spot. But so, you know, you talked a little bit about when, you know, the second week when you hadn't, hadn't quite heard heard back, you started to hear back, you kind of were like, in that emotional state, you know, walk me through kind of what that felt like, and you know, how how, I guess the end result, which is, wow, I'm now in a job that, that you're seeing so many, you know, things, awesome things come from yourself, you're obviously proud of yourself.

Alejandra Fraga 15:38 Yeah, it was funny because me and my roommate joke about it. But we say it was the longest month of our lives, where we kind of sort of felt like we were just on hold for a second. But I think something that was so helpful, was having her with me, and we were literally on the same boat. At that very same moment, we had moved across the country, we were looking for jobs together. And so just knowing that we had each other was extremely helpful. So on the days where we did feel down, we just be like, you know, what, we just moved across the country, we did that, let's just, you know, Let's applaud ourselves for that and keep on going, let's not get down on ourselves. And although there were days where we felt a little helpless and a little anxious, in a sense, where it's like, okay, we were not familiar with what's going to come our way, but just having, I guess, some faith in ourselves, and, and not losing hope, in the fact that what was coming our way was exactly what was meant for us. And so, you know, I think it was having each other that really helped us out at the end of the day there.

Leighann Lovely 16:40 That's excellent. And, you know, it's great that you had somebody and, you know, to be able to support you. And there's a lot of people out there that that don't necessarily have that roommate, but there are so many groups out there that that, that do offer that type of support. So anybody who's listening to this, you know, I urge them to seek out support in that, you know, in that sense, there are of people who are in the same situation where they can go and talk about those types of things. So, definitely, so where other people can learn where you can help educate employers, you've obviously just recently been through interview processes you've been, you know, through the applying and all of that, through this process. Were there things that certain companies did really well, that were there things that companies did, you were like, Oh, my gosh, here's, you know, this is was just done poorly, or feedback or whatever it might be. And, and I'm not asking you to name any employers, just asking, Hey, is there any constructive criticism that you can give to employers out there that might be looking to hire and how they can do it better?

Alejandra Fraga 17:48 Yeah. So personally, for me, I was in about I want to say four or five interviews. And I would say when employers just come prepared to the interviewer, and they know what they bring to the table, it's extremely intriguing to the employee, or to the potential employee, when they they're prepared. And they come in with their whatever it is their mission, their values, they kind of showcasing what they provide their employees with. I love that sense of culture within the company. And so that is a big, big plus, for me, making sure that there is that culture within a business or within a company it's huge, it's honestly a game changer for me. Another thing that I would say as well, a sense of professionalism. I feel like there's been plenty of interviews where there is just maybe, I don't know, they asked me about one or two questions. And the I don't know, I just feel like there there has to be some type of sense of professionalism within the the interview itself. Another one, I would say, so I had a couple of zoom interviews, and I had a couple in person interviews. And in person interviews are 10 times better than the Zoom interviews, I think. I mean, there's, you know, there's so much psychology or psychology studies behind the Zoom aspect of interviews and what goes on behind that, but it's just a game changer when you're in person, and you're able to see that person's body language and you're able to see, you know, body language with their words, whatever, just everything that comes together is definitely a different provides a different sense of safety, if that makes sense. And then so those were two things I know, for my roommate, and this is, you know, stuff that I'm talking about just because I did live this through with her but she had an employer who she had applied for sorry, yes, an employer that she had applied to and she was extremely extremely so my roommate had applied to this company that she was really, really looking forward to She got her first interview in extremely excited, they called her in for a second interview, she was like, Okay, this will work I can do this second interview, after they asked her to come in for a third interview, she was like, What's going on here? She's like, okay, she's like, I'll come into the third interview. But by this point, her excitement had already gone all the way down. And then she was also waiting to hear back from another company at that moment. And so she was kind of stuck in between, do I keep waiting for this company to probably lead me on to the fifth interview? Or do I just take this job that I have right here that has only interviewed me about two times. And so her excitement, like I said, had totally, totally gone down by the time that that company that she was extremely excited about to begin with, had already asked her for about the fourth interview. So she ended up going with the other employer. So one thing that I would definitely say is, don't how do I say this? Don't extend the process? If it doesn't need to be? I think, I mean, I've been on the other side, where I've been interviewing, interviewing people. And I can probably tell within the second interview that okay, you're a good fit for this company. Let's get you in. So I've been on that side. So I know what that's like. So I would say just don't extend the process of it doesn't need to be extended that long. Because by the time that they're on to that fifth interview, the employees, potential employees, excitement has already gone all the way down.

Leighann Lovely 21:28 Right. And I've I have heard that more times than trust me, this is not the 10th time, it's probably the 15th or maybe 30 of time that I have heard that said, Yeah, companies, typically, especially as the employee who is going through that process, you're right, they get really excited about something, then they interview somewhere else, they get really excited about that. And they go oh, wait, did the other interview was I really excited about that, then they hear from them again, they get really excited again, and then they hear, I'll have to go through another interview. And you're right, there's that up and down excitement. And eventually, it slowly starts to fizzle out when they're going through the process of other organizations. And eventually, the one that keeps pushing them through more and more and more and more trust, I just recently experienced this, I had a job change as well. And you're, you're completely right. And I am an advocate of if you if you want multiple people to interview this person at a company, then book it for a 90 minute interview panel interview of, hey, we need to have this many people come in, meet them, do a 20 minute meet and greet, and make a decision. Because now in this job market, you just can't You can't bring them back for five interviews, you can't bring it back for even three interviews at this point. Yeah, and I get it, the first interview, if you want to do a quick pre screen over zoom, bring them in second interview, you're making a decision, or that person's going to go somewhere else. And again, that's it. I'm not trying to slam any companies. And I do understand if we're getting up to the extremely high level here, I'm making a decision on my C suite employees, it might be a very different situation. Definitely, if we're talking about somebody who's on the, you know, entry level management, I had, I had one interview with somebody. And within that one interview, I knew this was the company I was going to work for. He called me and said, after we talked, I knew I was going to offer you the position. And he was I was just waiting to hear what you thought of it. And that's where I work today. Nice. Yeah, it's a rough. It's it's a rough world. But connections if it's a true true connection, and it's the right person at the company doing that interview. So it's there. Yeah. What about the company that you're working at? Now? How did that? I mean, what was the feeling there?

Alejandra Fraga 23:55 Yeah, so it's actually really funny, because I don't think the CEO even saw my resume. I don't know if till this day, if she seen I actually Yes, I did send it to her after I received the job, but she had not seen my resume. So let me backtrack to the very beginning. So ideally, I was applying for nonprofit jobs. I've always been super into nonprofits. I love the idea of just being part of something bigger and leaving a legacy, all that fun stuff. And so I had applied to a company. Originally, I had actually applied to a nonprofit organization called good friend, and they had actually called me in for a second interview, and I was extremely excited about this job really looking forward to it. And at my second interview, one of the founders ended up giving me a tour of the office and so there's different office spaces within the building. And while we were walking through she actually had shown me an office that was Is roadway marketing. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you know what I've actually seen their ad on Indeed, I believe she's like, You know what, yeah, they're looking actually looking for an assistant at the moment. If you're looking for, you know, another job because I was looking for another job at the moments and some good friend would only be part time. She said, You know, you can definitely come in, I believe they're having a seminar tonight. So it was that same day of my second interview. And within two hours, I was back at the same building, I ended up joining it was a group interview, which I actually it was like a presentation and a part group interview. And so I joined that I was there for about an hour, I met the see Oh, and she started talking to us about, you know, the company, how it started, the mission, their values, all of that fun stuff. And I was like, okay, you know, this was really intriguing. They even ended up having us read this, I want to say it was like a 10 page article on going the extra mile. So even just little things like that really grabbed my attention. I was like, Wow, I'm a very deep person. So I like, you know, reading deep articles, or any, any kind of any type of material that relates to that. And so, I was really intrigued automatically. Sarah had this very infectious energy to her. I really, I really go, how do I say this? I really am drawn towards energy. And so after that, I I ended up coming back home. And I was like, Yeah, I'm not getting that job. I it was a group interview with a another young lady and she had assistant experience, I had no assistant experience, other than being a nanny. So I came back and I was like, Yeah, I don't I don't think I'm going to get that job. But it's okay. You know, I at least I went, I tried, it's all good. gave it my all. And I actually ended up hearing back from, from the CEO, I want to say a couple of days after that interview, she pulled me in for a second interview, and actually offered me the position they're on on the spot at our second interview. And so that's kind of how it came to be. Yeah,

Leighann Lovely 27:14 That's great. And that's the way that it's supposed to happen, where, you know, she obviously saw something in you, you obviously connected with her. And and it happened it happened the way it was supposed to happen. Exactly. Yeah. And typically those are the the jobs or the best ways to get, you know, a position because yeah, you guys connected in some way on a deeper level where she, you know, she's interested, she saw something in you.

Alejandra Fraga 27:40 Yeah. And it's funny, because I still see good friend around all the time. And we're, I love them. So in a way, I still get to be a part of that family, which I'm very, very happy about. And it's it's funny, because I actually reflected on this the other day, and we ended up attending a conference named growth club up Amina and good friend was there as well. And we had this raffle. I was actually the first person to win a raffle prize at the event and go figure it was from good friend. And I kind of stepped back after that. And I was like, Oh my gosh, they literally and figuratively gifted me a gift. They gifted me the gift, you know, that I won there at the raffle. But they also gifted me the gift of being able to work for roadway marketing. And so it was kind of like, Uh huh. Like, this is where I'm supposed to be kind of moment.

Leighann Lovely 28:32 Right? Yeah, yeah. Things things always shake out the way they're supposed to. Exactly. Yeah. So I have one final question. This is the question that I'm asking everybody of the season. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path. One would that be and why?

Alejandra Fraga 28:53 That is a great question. And for me, this is definitely a no brainer. I had a mentor back in college, he was actually my boss as well. I worked for a calling center. And this was my second job ever. So I was very fresh. I was very new to the job world, I was going to have to call strangers and ask them for their money. And that was really scary to me. And so I got the job. And I remember it was, I believe my second week there and I ended up calling someone and they were just like the rudest people ever. It was just like, why are you calling me right now? Da da da and I broke down. I broke down. I was like, I can't do this. I remember I walked out of my little booth. And I you know, walk out and my boss pulls me into his office and I'm just I'm just like, I can't do this anymore. I'm sorry. I you know, this job just isn't for me. You and he looked at me and he told me one thing that I will forever remember, and he told me whether you believe you can or you can't, either way you are right. And after that moment, and I swear to you, I have lived by this every time that I believe I can do something, I do it. And every time that I believe I can't do something, I don't do it. And so it's just that that's, you know, mental reminder to myself that whether you believe you can or you can't, either way, you are so right. And so that was a game changer. Within my, my personal experience, my career experience, it's something that I've kept with me, honestly, ever since then. So that is, that is what has stuck with me for a very long time.

Leighann Lovely 30:51 That's amazing, you know, and when, throughout my career, I have had multiple mentors. And it is, it is the greatest thing that I've ever experienced to be able to have somebody who takes interest in you who will sit down when you are either at your lowest, and be able to raise you up, or somebody who will sit down with you when you are at your highest, and continue to encourage you to even do better. And one day, hopefully, you'll be able to pay that forward. And when somebody is struggling, you'll be able to walk up to him and say, Hey, how can I help you? In business, that's what we all need, right? We all need to continue to, to help each other in, you know, in whatever way we can. There's always, you know, ways that we can continue to learn and always ways that we can continue to help people. And that's, and that's what business, that's what friendship, that's what life is all about. So that's an amazing story. I'm glad that you shared that.

Alejandra Fraga 31:42 That's the ultimate goal, just being able to help each other, build each other up and help each other grow at the end of the day. And that's something that I totally did it mentioned earlier on in our interview, but growth opportunities within a job is extremely, extremely huge. That is something that I really, really look into when applying to a job, how can I grow within this fits within this business? And how can I help others? So sorry, I didn't bring that up earlier. But that was a huge factor as well, that just popped into my head.

Leighann Lovely 32:12 Yeah. Well, it sounds like you, you're a very determined person. And I think that you've found your way into an awesome opportunity and awesome job. And I really, thank you so much for taking the opportunity to talk with me and tell me your story today. And hopefully somebody who's listening will you know, get a gold nugget out of this. Hopefully an employer or somebody who's interviewing will be able to take something away from it. So thank you so much.

Alejandra Fraga 32:37 I really hope so, thank you for having me here

Leighann Lovely 32:45 Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support. Without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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For so long there has been a major issue with how we as a society help or handle those reentering society after time spent incarcerated, many people are given limited resources and very limited time to accomplish what they need to do to become what is deemed productive members of society. Meet Eli and Ruben, they are on a mission to change this!

Eli Rivera, CEO & Co-Founder, The Way Out

Ruben Gaona, COO & Co-Founder, The Way Out

Leighann Lovely 0:15 Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 1:04 Welcome to another episode of Let's Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation. Today, I am excited to have a conversation with two very amazing men that I've had the opportunity to meet on a couple of occasions, invited them to come on and talk with me today. Eli Rivera and Ruben Gaona. Eli was first the first person in Puerto his Puerto Rican family born and raised in the United States Midland. He grew up on 32nd and brown on Milwaukee's west side and he experienced firsthand extreme gang violence and the onset of the crack cocaine and AIDS epidemic in his neighborhood. These experiences heavily influenced Eli's life and his subsequent decisions, eventually landed him in prison in his late 20s. As an ex-felon, Eli experienced firsthand the changes associated with seeking employment with a felony conviction. Upon his release in 2000. Ali utilized various leadership positions to employ mentor and coach formerly incarcerated individuals within the hospitality industry. In 2018, Eli created shift fly a pre shyft and training app for hospitality industries and in 2019, co-founded the way out a comprehensive anti biased employment platform and mobile support app. Ruben was born in El Paso, Texas, and moved to Milwaukee Southside at the age of 15. In 2017, Reuben completed seven years of his 10 year sentence, and in 2019, he founded Second Chance Wisconsin and began providing guidance through motivational speaking to formerly incarcerated people and others facing barriers. Ruben is a US Navy veteran, a former employee of the Department of Defense, navy, and an ex-felon. Ruben is currently a senior at the University of Wisconsin Milwaukee, Helen Bader School of Social Welfare Reubens experience working in the reentry with the state of Wisconsin inspired him to co-found the way out where he currently is the COO Ruben has had the privilege of speaking at several reentry engagements throughout Wisconsin to discuss the merits of Second Chance employment, these two men have had amazing lives. And I'm very excited to welcome them and talk with them about what they are now doing to give back to society and help others with their second chance. So welcome, Eli and Ruben, I am so glad that you agreed to talk with me today.

Eli Rivera 3:38 Thanks for having us.

Ruben Gaona 3:39 Thank you. Thank you for inviting us.

Leighann Lovely 3:41 Yes, it is so great to have you both here. So I would love to jump right in and talk to you a little bit about how you came to create or come up with the idea for The Way Out.

Ruben Gaona 3:54 Oh, in the fall of 2019 Am fam and generator G beta was hosting an event as chairman feedings. And it was pretty much they were asking a question of with a group of panel panelists that were there of how can we reduce recidivism. So I attended that event le attended as well. Even though we didn't get to meet each other at that event. We both I believe present their ideas to each group that we were at we were in different groups. So once I presented my idea to my group, but what I wanted to do, I kind of didn't get the idea didn't resonate pretty well with the group. So it was a couple of days later about a week later or two that at their party have a mutual friend actually reached out for my information to the generator and they asked if he could contact me it's like giving my phone number. He jumped on the phone call me and kind of told me you know, this idea that's why me and Eli right are thinking of doing I wouldn't we would like to hear your idea and I share my ideas of You know how we like to connect employers and justice-involved individuals, but not only connected by hopefully provide continuous support services to make the employer understand that they're not alone. There are a people that is there's a group of people that's vested in them to be successful. And he's like, you know, he, like, you know what, I think we got something here, how about, all three of us just meet up and have coffee. So we ended up meeting up with a couple of days later to sit down and have coffee. And that's where I ended up meeting, Eli Rivera. And, you know, we both shares stories. And I think that's where we're the way I pretty much started.

Leighann Lovely 5:36 That's awesome. So let's, let's back up here and talk a little bit, let's dive a little bit into, you know, what the way out is, and why you were passionate, or why you were where you were at that moment in time, to even be able to pitch the ideas that you originally had. And to be at that, you know, I guess kind of pivotal moment where you had the opportunity to come together and create now, what you have today,

Ruben Gaona 6:07 I was passionate for the fact that I have been released out of prison, and I came home on March 1 of 2017. of essential 10 years in federal prison. Out of the 10 years, I ended up doing seven years. And coming into the home, into the halfway house. Within a week, I went that that I had to find employment, and any kind of performance, it didn't matter what type of employment, but I had to get a job. If I didn't get a job within 30 days, I was able to go back to prison. So I knew what I wanted to be a case manager already. So I struggled the first half the first week trying to find a job, you know, and a lot of people don't know that I am a Navy veteran. So often, it would mean being a navy, Navy veteran and skill that I will be able to provide will get overlooked by the fact that I checked the box I was formerly incarcerated. So they're like, You know what, no, get your background, we can give you a job. And I was successful in 45 Finding a job. So but working out the case manager year later, I got a job with the state of Wisconsin, working with the Wisconsin reentry pipeline program. And I saw the pamphlet constantly of that we would help people place them in a job. But then within 60 or 90 days after we were done providing support services, it would be back to square one. And we will lose you know, they will be looking for another job again, because is there a transcript you can shall carry issues, housing issues. So that resonated with me. And I thought You know what, there's got to be more that we could do. That has to be more. So that became real personal to me and trying to find a way to if I was struggling with someone that was a Navy veteran honorably served to find a job, then I could only imagine those who didn't have the same skills that I have, how much more they're struggling. So I mean, Eli with yours.

Eli Rivera 7:56 Yeah, you know, my, reason for being at that event on, you know, in 2019 was, although I had been in hospitality my entire life, even prior to incarceration. I had just gotten busy. Once I came out of prison, I was fortunate enough to be one of the few who had something lined up for me, even prior to my release. But while I was in the halfway house, I saw so many people that weren't as fortunate as I was, I saw grown men crying, because Rubin said, If you don't find a job, I believe at that time, it was within four weeks, you would be revoked my time having been served over 20 years ago, I had, as I mentioned, just gotten back into hospitality, you know, working, owning, operating, doing doing many, many things in hospitality, but it also included being sensitive to the needs of folks coming out of incarceration. So I often hired myself, Justice impacted individuals, both personally as well as when I was given an opportunity to work with a great restaurant group here in the city. And and it always showed and retention, it always showed in, you know, the the outcomes in regards to customer satisfaction and increasing revenue and all of that stuff. So I knew, you know, that that that it was a great core people to to work with. But again, you know, I hadn't started thinking about my impact in this space and being in this space, until I met my second wife, who was a professor at UW Milwaukee, who had ironically mentioned to me that she had this great student that I had to meet one day, and lo and behold, it ended up being Reuben. And so through that third party, I was introduced to Rubin who was, you know, someone my wife hadn't handed me to meet him. So I knew immediately being at that event in 2019, was where I needed to be to make that shift away from hospitality and into this space of, you know, really this social impact space. And it was validated when my ideas were in harmony with Rubin at the time, we had a friend Craig, who was part of this, but he got pulled away for something else that he was very passionate about. So Rubin and I stayed together. And really, you know, with the guidance and support of generator and American families, corporate Institute for corporate responsibility and social impact, we've managed to come along way in a very short period of time supporting folks, but that was really how I ended up at that event. I knew when I saw that, advertise on LinkedIn, that was going to be the turning point. And once Ruben and I met, and we committed I, I, you know, sold hospitality app that I had previously created, and have been all in since really since the winter of 2019. And through our launch at the end of 2020. And to where we are today,

Leighann Lovely 11:20 Wow, you would set something said 20 years ago, you had what, four weeks to find a job and then keep that job. I mean, is that still is that still the rule of thumb nowadays with individuals who are coming back into society is that they have four weeks to find a job or is that changed, because it seems I understand the principle behind it of you know, you come out of you're transitioning back into to society, they obviously want, you know, individuals to be active members of society contributing in some way, but four weeks is not a lot of time to, especially if you've spent years inside, that's not a lot of time to get your life in order, and to be working at a job. And so I'm guessing that this app is a huge, you know, help to those individuals being able to, I guess help in many different ways want tell me about how this helps those individuals?

Eli Rivera 12:18 So you know, to your point, and I think Ruben is it still four weeks, I know you came out more recent than I was that still an expectation at four weeks?

Ruben Gaona 12:28 Well, with COVID. I don't know what changes that they've made, right. But part of COVID, like I said, I knew I had 30 days to to find any Anika and that causes an individual a lot of times to just go apply for a staffing agency. And you know, and start earning 7.50, 8.50, $10 an hour. But a lot of times not taking into consideration that out of whatever we're earning. 25% is going to the highway house, so we got to pay so so that $10 to our family. And if you'd have to pay fees or child support, you're left with breadcrumbs to try to try to make it still. So but yeah, 30 days is what the policy was.

Eli Rivera 13:12 Yeah, yeah. And so you know, so to that point, what what our app does, you know, it, I mean, so many different things to kind of change that model that the first part of it is, you know, we do bring onboard employers who are going to be paying a minimum of $15 an hour. So we consider that a living wage job, we don't want. We don't feel that our services, these additional holistic wraparound services that we provide through the platform are of any value to somebody if at the end of the day, they're still not earning enough money to sustain themselves. So so that's, you know, really kind of part one of what we offer is we offer a pool of employers that aren't just saying they will hire a second chance because it's it's the the right PR move to make these days because everyone's talking about, you know, hiring second chance. And it's, it's such a wonderful social impact thing we say, okay, not only are you willing to hire justice impacted, tell us how many jobs you you have available for them, because we're going to fill those roles. It's not if the perfect candidate if the moon and the stars aligned, it's, it literally shows us that, that you're committed to this and we will bring you the right person, right. And so so that's really what it comes down to is how can we really crass craft a holistic reentry plan for somebody that then allows them to bring their best self to work and really produce for the employer at a level, maybe even beyond those of the folks who aren't just as impacted that are working there.

Leighann Lovely 14:52 Right, and it makes, you know, offering these other services and I want to talk a little bit about some of these other services. allowing these individuals to be able to go to work and be productive while at work, not worrying about what's happening at home. And I've, you know, I've talked about this, you know, with other individuals I talk about this a lot, is that, you know, we can't always walk in and leave our baggage at the door, we can't, it's we're humans. But this allows you to set set up these individuals to be successful, as successful as possible to be able to walk in the door, and be ready to do the job without having to worry about whatever life is happening around them. And that's, that's so important. Not to mention that if somebody is working through this app, you would think that an employer that has come talk to you, you would think that an employer would go wow, this is this is amazing, because not only are they coming to work for me, I know that they really are in it for the long haul. Because, one, they're taking the effort to go through and work with somebody like you, and then they're utilizing whatever services you're also offering. So now tell me what some of those other services that you offer are.

Ruben Gaona 16:11 So one of the big questions when we onboard, someone is asking them, how do they envision their way out to be like, what is their actual my way out? You know, I believe that gives them that feeling of taking ownership back of their life, once again, instead of always being told what to do now you're able to take ownership and say, Well, this is what I want to do. So we'll ask what supportive services do you need, whether it be transportation, assistance to obtain your driver's license, AODA counseling, entrepreneurship, how seen shall care pretty much anything that someone could have struggled to reenter society that we might think we might take for granted because we already have it, but they don't have it. So we try to provide connect them with reentry service providers that provide those supportive services, so we could help them and assist them to further on longer their career and their pathway to reentry into society. The second thing we offer is personal goals. So we asked them, you know, what, what personal goals do you want to shift within 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. So we'll drop down tracks of their own choices of what they have chosen, that they want to do, whether they want to start going to the gym, we had individuals that wanted to connect back to their family members, then after 17 years, I believe or they've connected back to them. We had individuals that wanted to open their own barber shop, and they opened own barber shops. So and with the employer, we actually worked with the employer le as a competition with employers and on asking the employer, you know, what do you want to see the individual accomplish in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days while they're working with you? What tracks do you have for them? Is there training they have to do and you want them completing them. So once all those tracks are taken into consideration and drop into the app, as they're completing each single one of their tracks, we we provide incentives for them. We've been able to give out bugs she gives Brewer chiggers, entrepreneurship scholarships to so that someone could learn how to run their businesses. So you know, at that set of back satisfaction that they get like, oh, wow,

Leighann Lovely 18:19 Right, we all love the carrot that's, you know, hanging at the end of the stick, we everybody, at least I do. You know, my boss says, Hey, if you do this, you get this. And I'm like, Okay, I want to get that. And it's a cup of coffee. And I'm like, Oh, I got a cup of coffee. I, everybody loves you know, that tiny little reward, or at least the feeling of being rewarded for something, my I always joke, I get all these gifts from my parents. But then after we've opened our gifts, we play games for prizes, and these prizes are all like $1 A little prizes. And I say, you know, it's really funny, I get more excited about getting a prize worth like two bucks, then the $40 pair of shoes or, or scarf that you bought me and we laugh about it, because it's a sense of, ooh, I won something. It really is just another, you know, gift or another little that is the human in us. We want to feel like we have accomplished or won or done something great or amazing. And that's, that's, that's awesome. Now, do these, these things that you give away? Are these donated? How do you get these these little incentives?

Eli Rivera 19:29 Yeah, Well, you know, as Ruben mentioned, sometimes they're little incentives. Sometimes they're big incentives. But, you know, part of our model to that point is, you know, we're really supporting this person's unique journey that that they themselves have crafted. And so basically, what we're saying to them is, look, we value your opinion, you're the expert in your life, you're going to tell us what you want to do and how you want to do it and we're just going to hold you accountable to that. But But I say that because they really understand that this is a team effort, right. And because of that, we treat this as an investment in all of us. And so, you know, the client success then becomes our success then becomes the ability to bring more employers into the loop. And so we see this is an opportunity for us personally to invest in this individual. And so we take the the part of the revenues that are driven by this direct hire model, to pay for these things. So so we're investing our own money back into this cycle with this individual, to make sure that they see, hey, guess what, we all have skin in the game here, we're all vested in you together. And that creates what we believe this, it brings to the surface what we believe already exists, you know, Ruben and I come from from the streets, right? And there's this high level of loyalty and and, you know, dedication to folks who who have helped us, right, who have been part of our crew. And and so, you know, we kind of continue to foster that, like, hey, no, this is, you know, this is about you and us together doing this. And we believe that really contributes to a level of commitment, that that perhaps typical, you know, staffing models or otherwise, don't have that opportunity. And again, you know, Rubin can speak to, you know, how many folks will have said to him, I want to talk to you, you're the guy with the lived experience, you know, what the prior to the way out in creating this platform, in those spaces, and we really value our lived experience, and so does the community that we're serving?

Leighann Lovely 21:41 Excellent. So it's 100% you, You're, you fund all of this? Oh, well,

Eli Rivera 21:47 I do want to clarify, you know, a AmFan has been our greatest sponsor to get things off the ground, to give us runway to do what we're doing. But yes, we take we take revenue from the direct hire model, and wrap that into incentivizing our clients.

Leighann Lovely 22:04 Excellent, wonderful. I mean, and that's, that's amazing, you are the incentive for your own employees to do well. And that's, you know, that's the best business model for companies to to incentivize their own employees, it makes them feel special, and makes them feel important. That's awesome. So what are some of the company sizes that you typically are going after? What are some of the types of positions that you typically are, are looking to work with or fill?

Eli Rivera 22:37 Yeah, our sweet spot tends to be, you know, smaller and midsize businesses that don't have an entire, you know, HR and legal gauntlet to get through, in order to create a relationship with them. So, you know, typically, our best results have been, you know, local businesses that maybe have, you know, four to 10, you know, facilities within their organization. In hospitality in retail, we have a major manufacturing partnership we're working with, with other organizations, with their they're our biggest employer, and they've been really the kindest and most open and, you know, organization as it relates to CNC and robotics training and positions within their organization. But but, you know, we have, we've learned through trial and error that this is our sweet spot, some of these mid size or smaller, local organizations, because, you know, we try to keep this simple, we have a, you know, three page four page with signature page contract that we work with organizations, and we've had major employers come back at us with a 30 page document, you know, in response to what we've proposed, and we're like, No, thank you, we can't afford to jump through all of these hoops to get you in. And at the end of the day, that speaks to us, these people aren't really in it for the person, they're in it just to fill the roles and, you know, they got to have every eye you know, dotted and T crossed and it at the end of the day isn't worth it. Now, as we're getting more and more success stories, as we're getting more and more people to see the the validated program that we have, you know, we are looking at 2022 a pilot program here in Wisconsin, potentially, with Koch Industries, and you know, a few of their facilities and different a few of their different facilities and businesses in Wisconsin and looking to see how that that goes. But really, you know, we find that the relationships, you know, speaking directly with an owner or a partner, you know, within an organization really allows us to really have a really strong connection with that organization. And that's been working best. But but we'll see, we'll see what some of these larger organizations will bring to the table in 2022. Yeah.

Leighann Lovely 25:13 Now, if an organization wanted to reach out to you, they wanted to work with you, how would they go about doing that?

Eli Rivera 25:19 Yeah, well, they can go to our website, which is TWOUT.org. So twout.org, and they can drop us an email there. And, you know, we'll respond directly to them, they can certainly, you know, email Ruben and I directly through our LinkedIn profiles. Otherwise, you know, the best way is definitely that twout.org TWOUT.org. And, and then we can kind of take it from there, believe me, you know, we do our own vetting, we want to make sure that the employers are truly committed to Second Chance hiring and all of the, you know, all of the considerations that that in knowledge, one should have this, they're going to go down that road. And so, yeah, that's, that's really the first step for us.

Leighann Lovely 26:10 Right? No, that's important. Yeah, you don't want an employer to just be using you as a government tax write off. So now, if individuals wanted to find you, they were interested in utilizing this app? How are they going to find you? Is it the same way? How are you reaching these individuals to let them know that you're here that you're here to help them?

Ruben Gaona 26:30 Yes, the same way, you know, an individual report allows often we reach individuals by word of mouth, you know, no, I've already told them that, that we tell someone that they will have one of their friends, often we are reaching out to reach nachos, because of reentry service providers, you know, that they're working with, and they connect them with us, they'll might see us on Facebook, on LinkedIn. So opt in is just, you know, it's as simple as going to our website, like Ellie said, and shooting an email, or often getting a Facebook message and a you know, so it's real simple to connect with her.

Leighann Lovely 27:05 Yeah. And I encourage any listeners to check out your website, some great success stories on there. Definitely worth checking out. If you're interested in learning more about The Way Out. It's, you guys are great. You're amazing. Okay, I have one final question of the season that I'm asking everybody this season, if you could pinpoint a time period in your career, or life that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be and why? Eli, why don't you go first?

Eli Rivera 27:35 Oh, wow. Um, as it relates to, you know, why we're here today, speaking in regards to the way out, I would say it was really there two moments, but the first moment being that first opportunity that I was given by this local restaurant group upon, you know, after having been convicted and done my time and decided to kind of go another route and just go work for an organization, I literally applied for a dishwashing position, it was at the, you know, after I had first come out, I jumped into another venture with my then wife, it ended up in divorce. I was like in this like terrible headspace, and just wanted to work in a restaurant and do dishes. That's all I wanted to do. And I went and I applied at this local restaurant group, and the director of operations at the time, had looked at my resume, and said, Are you crazy, like, there's no way I'm going to put you in the kitchen, washing dishes, like, I need you, I understand, you know, your past experience and all of that, that you know, the history of incarceration, but you're a leader, you're going to, you know, I need you to go into management with this organization. And then lo and behold, spent over a decade with this organization to travel all over the world. I mean, it was just just a mind blowing experience to have someone validate me at my lowest point. And so, you know, that was really a big turning point, to be accepted into that space and be given the opportunity to bring other people on board with this organization. And then the other piece that really tied all this together, as I mentioned was, you know, when my wife started asking me to speak about my upbringing, and my subsequent incarceration, and all of that at her for her classes, that's really tied in like, this is how I want to give back in this space. And so those are really the turning points that have put me hear before you and with Ruben, as it relates to my turning points.

Leighann Lovely 29:54 You know, it's funny, even sometimes when we don't know that we need help or We don't know, you know that we want help sometimes when we want to hide as a dishwasher and just want to go to work, it's usually that and that's the the shining star or the mentor or the whomever comes out of the woodwork and kind of just lifts us up at that moment when you most need it and, and tells you exactly what you need to hear or does exactly what you need them to do to either set you straight or to put you, you know, point you in the right direction. You know, that's, that's an awesome story. Thank you for sharing that. It's I'm always, you know, so excited to hear these, these stories, because they're, they're always filled with such interesting turns and twists of positive energy that that comes out of sometimes tragedy, divorce or, but thank you, Ruben, why don't you?

Ruben Gaona 30:56 You know, I've often say, you know, my turning a big turning point in life was in 2015, I'd already been five years into my incarceration. And one day I was walking, you know, out in the yard, or in, we call it the rec outside the yard. And I had a friend of mine just put me to the side and he called me like, everybody, let me talk to you. And I say, yeah, so we went, we started talking and, and he asked me one simple question. It was like, What do you have to show for? Like, you were just big drug dealer. But what do you have to show for? Like, how many businesses do you own? How many properties houses? And my response was, I have nothing to show for. I've never ran a business. I never own my business. I never even know my own house. Of like, like, yeah, like, they don't have nothing. And on top of that, they took everything that I had, the cards that I had, that you get, they got confiscated, like I was left with nothing. And, and he he looked at me like I just don't understand it. Like you're so smart. Like you're a veteran, you have a college, college behind you. He's like, I have a ninth grade education level, I dropped out of high school when I was going to 10th grade, like, but I run a million dollar manufacturing company. I was like, like, I don't understand how a guy's tools work. And you're smarter than me, doesn't have nothing to show for it. Your friends. A lot of a lot of them are here because they entry legally into this country. They're getting deported. But they have houses, they have restaurants, but you don't have anything to show for. And that right there. I think later on that night was the first time I actually cry while I was in prison. I went and I was laying in my bunk and tears just start rolling on my eyes. Because it was like, why am I here? Like, I didn't get raised like this. And I asked myself, like, why don't why? Why? You know, and that. And I just came to the conclusion that, you know, all my life, I was told I couldn't do stuff. Because I grew up, I grew up with a single mom had we had, she had five kids, my older brother was mentally handicapped, grew up in the ghetto, and the worst neighborhood and no Pelto, Texas, we barely often had food to eat, but there was always love. But so but I was I was told I couldn't do something. So I told myself that I will never again, allow anyone to tell me that I couldn't do something. And that's when I wrote like my first chord that to remind me that I can decide is this, it is an excuse, we challenged ourselves to not reach our true potential. There's nothing you know, it might take me longer to get somewhere because maybe I might not learn as quick. But I'll eventually get there. If doing the right things I will get there. And and that was the first major turning point in my life when I said, you know, I wrote down that code. And I said, You know what, I want to be a case manager. When I get out. I want to show people that our mistakes do not define who we are. But what we do after them, I want to show them that, you know, this is not us, there's more choice. And we still give more. And the second than me to get involved more was in 2008, by law, had been working with the state for about 11 months, as an Employment Training Specialist as the dean in the Wisconsin reentry pipeline program. And I remember, I had a friend that was having a panel discussion board of the entry into the workforce. So she was like, You know what, Rubin I would love for you to come and speak, you know, to justice involved. Individuals are what it is, how do we enter back into the workforce? You've been told assessable you've been on for three years, you have a job already. And I remember asking my supervisor if I could, if I could do the panel discussion. Like, hey, I want to know, you know, they asked me what I would be able to do right for me to go because I was an employee, I had to request permission. And he was like, Ruben, like, I don't think Madison my approve of this, you know, because of the organization that's doing the panel discussion board is not a like organization. So I was like, What have politics got to do with us helping people and he was like Ruben, but you know, at the state employee, really that's what it is. And it's like So there's certain things that you can and can't do. And I was like, You know what? I looked at him. And I said, well, then if that's the case, like, if I was like, if I can help people, and that's what I want to do, like, and when I feel that my values are being compromised, here's my 45 day notice. And he looked at me like, are you joking? I was like, no, like, I'm giving you a 45 day notice, like, and he was like, what are you gonna do, I just had a baby, he's like, group and you just had a baby in insurance, like, I was like, You know what, I'll figure it out, I was like, I'll open my own company, like, I'm gonna take a leap of faith and get involved. And, like, I don't want no restrictions, I don't want anyone to telling me that I cannot help justice evolve individuals, and I'm not able to provide them the tools so they can be successful. So he's like, Well, if you want to make it official, send me an email, like authentic to you right away when to my death, and send him a 45 day notice. So

Leighann Lovely 35:56 That's, that's amazing. You have to, you know, your those light bulb moments where you kind of you sit back and you go, Oh, my gosh, you know, and I've, I've had those in my life where I, you know, you sit back and you just you, it hits you like a ton of bricks, those realizations of, what am I doing, you know, I can do better, I can be better, I can help people. And, you know, in my, in my, in my life, I you know, I have an HR background, I got my degree in HR, because I wanted to help people corporate HR, not ripping on them. But they're governed by laws, you can't necessarily go and become friends with all the employees at the company, you may have to fire them one day, which is why I do what I do now. Because I want the ability to help people and ruin you, you definitely, you know, have those aha moments, and you did something that so many people are incapable or not capable of doing because of fear. And I applaud you for that. I am not going to say I encourage it, otherwise, you're going to have a whole bunch of people running around. But you, you you were the brave one, you know, I'm I'm a little bit risk, you know, adverse. I grew up with, you know, very risk adverse, you know, family, but that that's, that's awesome. It's absolutely amazing, you know, to be able to, on the drop of a hat, decide that I want to do better and do better. And you have, so I applaud you. Yeah, I applaud you. I applaud you both. And I thank you both for taking the time out of your busy schedules to come here and talk with me and tell me about about yourselves about the way out and I really appreciate it. So

Ruben Gaona 37:45 Thank you. We appreciate it, too.

Eli Rivera 37:47 Yeah, Thank you for the opportunity. Really appreciate it.

Leighann Lovely 37:51 Yes. And you. You both have a wonderful day. And yeah, take care.

Eli Rivera 37:58 You too. Thank you, bye bye

Leighann Lovely 38:00 Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

Eli Rivera - linkedin.com/in/elirivera

Ruben Gaona - linkedin.com/in/rubengaona

Website - https://www.twout.org/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music by Cruen - Family Time

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Wouldn't it be nice if we all had jobs that were driven by a deeper passion from within? Today I talk with an amazing person that inspires me to do better and be better, simply because I can feel the passion that he has for the work he does without compromise to his personal life, AJ Kruse, The Concept Illustrator at humanworks.

Leighann Lovely 0:15 Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want, generations are coming together, more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann. Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 1:05 I am so excited to have you here with me today. AJ, why don't you tell me a little bit about your background, you know, personally and with humanworks?

AJ Kruse 1:17 Sure. Well, I'm really excited and grateful to be here talking with Leighann I really appreciated getting to know you just a little bit since we've met but my background, I always tell people, when it comes right down to it, I'm just I'm a teacher. I'm an educator, that's really kind of where I come from, in a way. It's where I've been sort of professionally since I got started. So my career started in the classroom with kids. So that's proof of being an educator right there a little bit. And I grew up around it. My mom was a teacher, my dad, my dad is a teacher. Now he's sort of teaching, you know what he did for his life. So I grew up and I've continued to sort of grow up around education. And that's what I've gotten to do started in the classroom with kids. But then I sort of made this jumper transition, I got involved with some teacher training, helping some other teachers be better teachers. And I got really excited and interested in working with grownups, I guess. So I made that jump over into the corporate world and corporate training. That was the path that I took into being a teacher not just for students in a classroom, but for grownups at work, and then human works happens. So that was a really exciting evolution in my career.

Leighann Lovely 2:29 AJ Kruse is The Concept Illustrator at humanworks. AJ needs to make things make sense not only for himself but for you as well. This quality along with his knack for joining backstage design and front stage presentation has guided him through his dynamic professional career that began in elementary education and has continued in organizational development. After making the leap to corporate education. He led Learning and Development at two Milwaukee area businesses before embarking with three remarkable colleagues to launch humanworks, what else makes AJ tick, Faith family and Friday night pizzas. humanworks is a Milwaukee based consultancy, that elevates organizations through a people-focused lens, crafting custom-tailored solutions around core values and people touchpoints strategic planning and leadership development,

AJ Kruse 3:25 I think human works really started with a lot of success that happened at a company that I was working with. So 25 years of success working with people at the company that I was working for, in Milwaukee, really all began with the founder of humanwork, who led human resources there for about 25 years, slowly but surely, he built a team and built-in people practices into that business with that team that helped that company be really, really successful. So when I tell people, humanworks really came from success, you know, I don't know, if every company starts that way. Sometimes I think companies might start because something isn't working or something's broken, and they want to make it better. Well, humanworks really came from a collection of learning a lot of really excellent approaches to what you know, what people need at work. And those approaches were so helpful are so successful, that company positioned really well and was was merged and purchased. And after that, the question became sort of a now what for Shawn, who leads our team? And then for a handful of us who are looking in the future sort of going, I'm not sure now what Shawn sort of said, I want to go over here and keep doing what we've been doing with people and invited a handful of us to go with them. So that's sort of where humanworks came from. In a nutshell.

Leighann Lovely 4:39 Wow. And in humanwork started, right before the pandemic, correct?

AJ Kruse 4:45 We did, yes, in October, officially October of 2019. So that's where human works began. And let me tell you a lot changed since October of 2019. Right? As we all know, right. So It's kind of a, it's kind of incredible timing, if you really think about it, at least to me, the timing is kind of incredible, because I feel like everything that happens since October 2019, in the last two years, for me personally, it feels like everything that's taken place has accelerated or sped up some things. So I don't care what it could be work, you know, the working from home and working remotely and, you know, flexibility that sped up pretty dramatically. So I don't know, if two years ago, I could have pictured, you know, working and doing almost everything I'm doing from home. But I, I can now of course. But the other thing that got sped up so quickly, to me, was this kind of focus that I'm seeing from business leaders and companies that we work with this focus on people in their relationship to work to me the thinking around that, the attention on it, that all got accelerated and sped up, you know, tenfold I think we were started, we were sort of starting down that path. There was a conversation going, but it really it really, I mean, it accelerated so quickly over the last two years, that everybody reevaluating so much about that relationship that they have with work, right, I mean, but employers in that spot to go, oh, my gosh, we have to be part of that conversation, too. We have, we have to really look at our relationship with the people that we employ and their relationship with work. So that's I guess why I would say timings kind of been incredible, in a way, because that's what human works is so focused on is the relationship that people have to work.

Leighann Lovely 6:28 Wow, right before the pandemic, you come out with a business who is that is focused on the people. And all of the sudden there is a massive shift in the world of people focusing on what do I want to do? How do I want to how do I want to work? How do I What is my relationship with my employer, my job really my life? So you talked a little bit about the concept of this coming from success of doing this with businesses already. So the the founder, invited your your team in and explained to me how each one of you kind of fit into the different roles at your at your company? Yeah, absolutely.

AJ Kruse 7:10 So you know what, like I said, we were all part of the same team once internally, you know, at a business in the Milwaukee area that was enjoying, when I say enjoying a lot of success, how do you quantify that the business was doing really, really well. And, and, you know, that's what position did so well for its its merger and acquisition. The people at the business were doing well, and the culture was really doing well. There were workplace awards, you know, top workplace, etc. So there was some good unquantifiable things that I feel like can say, Yeah, we were in a really good position and spot there, I don't think those things would have come together the way they did. If the team that I'm still working with now hadn't have cut wouldn't have come together the way that we did. So the way that you know, the way that we all came together, I sort of think of it as putting together a team of the right abilities, the right strengths, the right needs that way. So there are four of us who make up human works. Founder, Shawn, his role is the thought catalyst for humanworks. But what Shawn really does so so well is is really challenges the, you know, the thinking the actions of people around him gets people thinking differently, that among all of his other many strengths, that's really what Shawn did so well for the company. And he really did a fantastic job of bringing in the right people. So the other people on my team, Rebecca, and Sarah, each bring their own sort of unique strength of their own set of skills to what we do, Rebecca really, really is fantastic at finding the right people. And putting those right people together, her sort of groundwork strength is that subject matter expertise, if you will, is around talent acquisition there, his background, is really more in sort of that marketing communication sort of round. So that's what Sarah did for the team there. And that's what Sarah does. Now, for human works. It's kind of funny, all four of us, we really, were really quite different. And none of us has a traditional human resources background, yet, we all came together and sort of had the same beliefs and focus around people. And that's what really helped sort of those strengths come together to build the team that we have.

Leighann Lovely 9:10 Right? You all complement each other and maybe build each other up in your own strengths.

AJ Kruse 9:15 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's sort of the I mean, that sort of goes to one of the beliefs we have just around teams in general is that you don't want carbon copies of it. You need those different strengths, different perspectives, different abilities sort of come together. And that's definitely what we have with human works big time.

Leighann Lovely 9:30 Well, that's excellent. So tell me a little bit about some of the challenges or the things that you work with when it comes to the clients and the companies that you that call you for assistance,

AJ Kruse 9:43 for sure. So um, I think when people when people connect with human works, or when people are reaching out for support there, there's a there's a handful of things that they're really looking for some of the people who reach out. They're really motivated to breathe life into their culture. That's what they're looking to do. So they're looking at the culture They're saying it feels there's a field here that we're missing something. That's one thing that sometimes people reach out looking to human works for support with how do we do that? Well, something else that I think leaders reach out to humanworks for is, I think sometimes they're, they're saying, you know, I know that we need to get everyone in this business, rowing in the same direction, we really need to get some alignment and some clarity around, you know, not just our purpose, not just why we're here. But what we're here to do and how we're going to do that. What's the plan? What are the, you know, not just what the goal is, but how are we going to execute that goal. So they're, they're trying to get their arms around everything. They know that that's not helping, as well as maybe it should be more visibility, just across all the teams departments here in the company, sort of like strategic planning and finding our way kind of thing. I also think people reach out to human work, sometimes when they've pinpointed something or they've identified something that it connects directly to their people directly to their workforce somehow or their employees, and they're saying, this piece just needs to be better. So to us, we call those human touchpoints, a human touchpoint could be a good example of that might be performance management and new engagement get started that a couple of weeks ago around performance management sort of tis the season, so sort of an end of the year, a burst of energy for that company, but they were looking at how they did that human touchpoint how they did performance measurement, they said, This just needs to be better to last thing, I think people really people being companies, the last thing I think companies really think about or reach out to human works for is they're looking to elevate or strengthen their leaders. So they sort of have this understanding that, you know, that's where the rubber hits the road. It's the people leaders in this business that make all these things possible as far as what we have to accomplish hitting our goals reaching our customers. So they're looking to strengthen or provide something to those people, leaders are the leaders within their organization, they're looking to strengthen, build them up, give them confidence somehow. So they're looking for some leadership development, or help creating a leadership model for their business. Those are the sorts of things that we get connected with business leaders about

Leighann Lovely 12:06 Leaders are typically company when they're looking to strengthen or they're looking to up their game, they're they're going to look at the leaders ultimately, because pour or lack of leadership, ultimately, you can usually pinpoint that if they're lacking in something, yeah,

AJ Kruse 12:24 it's sometimes I think of it sort of like an hourglass, I just feel like people leaders are sort of at that bottleneck, or that middle point of the hourglass where they have the pressure and expectations of you know, a senior leadership team who, you know, they've set a vision, they've set a goal, they've set a path, and they said, This is what we have to accomplish, we're counting on you to do it. And then on the other end of that hourglass, the other side of that there's their team, their team who has all kinds of unique individual needs, strengths, goals, aspirations, who are showing up to work every day saying, you know, hey, I'm giving, giving my time, my energy to what you're trying to accomplish here. I'm trying to get it done for you. But you know, I need something back from you, I need some direction leader, I need some clarity leader. So I feel like the people leaders, sometimes people even call that middle management, but I feel like those people are sort of at that center point of the hourglass, they get a lot of attention and for good reason. Because they really are sort of to me where the rubber hits the road for so much of what happens in a business, that's where it's at. So humanworks definitely, definitely has a focus there around, you know, what is the model of leaders for leadership, you know, at a given business, how it how does that play out? And how do you teach it and reinforce it with your leadership team?

Leighann Lovely 13:42 Right? And, and has there been bigger challenges or different challenges, because of what has transpired with the pandemic, and, you know, over the last 20 months, and I kinda feel like it should be like, 22 months now, that number just keeps increasing, you know, obviously, as we're, we're moving forward, and I wish there was an end in sight, but we continue to see different challenges. You know, as months go by, fortunately, we are starting to finally catch on to new ways of communication. We're getting better at it. But what I've been some of those, you know, shifts and challenges, what have been some of the positives that have come out of, I don't know, Zoom calls or the different ways that we've kind of pivoted in order to continue to be productive and do business.

AJ Kruse 14:33 Yeah, I think the quick I mean, the two quick things that come to my mind, as far as you know, challenges and positive certainly challenges right now. There's a lot of conversation going on around keeping people. The great resignation is maybe a term we're all tired of hearing about and maybe it'll phase out but it's keeping people in to me, a couple things come in with that. For sure. Keeping people kind of boils down to what are we doing the right thing for people? Are we doing the right things for Are employees? Are we making this a place they want to be? Because when I, when I look at the whole great resignation, when I think about that big picture of that, to me, it sort of boils down to this crisis of values sort of that at least the way I look at, it comes down to a crisis of values. So from, from a human perspective, from an individual perspective, I think, the last 2020 months, whatever, 20 months, 24 months, whatever it's been, that's sort of shaken people down to their core. And I focus on that word core a little bit on purpose, because when you get shaken down to your core, you circle back to your core. And that's where your core values are, it's what's most important to me. And as people have gotten shaken, they've looked around, they've said, Okay, what is it that I really value? What are my core values? And do they line up with the actions that I'm taking with the routines that I'm committed to with the sort of with with this path that I'm on? And if they, if they found a no there, when they asked that question, they started looking at it a lot more carefully, and saying, Well, what am I going to change? What has to change about this routine, this path of these actions that I've committed to? So they're looking around and they're saying, If my employer really doesn't carry or live or hold the values that I hold, dear? Why would I keep doing that? So that's sort of the way that I look at the great resignation, I heard an interesting perspective yesterday listening to someone speak and they were sort of saying maybe this great resignations, a good thing, maybe the shakeups a good thing, because it's gonna, it's gonna force some hands so that they're back to that idea of accelerating things. It's gonna force employers to care a little bit more about asking that question. What do we need to be doing for our people? And when I think about that question, the answers to me, they're kind of clear. You know, they're there probably a lot of ways to answer that question. But the kinds of things that I focus on would be what do people need? Well, you need to give employers that is you need to give people consistency, you need to be who your values say you are, that word consistency goes a long way for me. So it's, you know, it's not just about being who your values say you are as a company, that has to be evident, lived and experienced in the employee experience, for sure. But, you know, there's more to that consistency word. That means giving people a way of working that works, you know, being clear about this is how things are done here at our business. This is how we set goals. This is how your daily work attaches to those goals that connects and fulfills those goals. You know, so there's a lot behind that consistency work. But I think people need that. I also think people need challenges and opportunity. So they're, to go back to those goals, they need to be challenged, they need to have the opportunity to take on something that's a little bit bigger than what they've taken on before. They need leaders who care about them. And they need to free the freedom to use their strengths, their strengths and their abilities. Those are the kinds of things that people need. And if if employers are asking that question and sort of saying, what do we need to be doing for people? That's a challenge that they're faced with right now. I hope they are looking at that question more deeply. I hope they are sort of challenging that selves to look at the way they've answered that question in the past, and maybe find a better way to answer it in the future, if they don't feel confident that they're doing that well for their people, or if they're struggling with keeping, you know, the people that they want to keep at their business that they need to fulfill what their business is there to do. You also asked about positives, I think that you

Leighann Lovely 18:19 hold on, before you get into positive this is how much of a geek I am. You just, I got goosebumps, because I am 100%, Everything that you just said 100% on board. I know you said somebody had mentioned that maybe this was a good thing. I don't necessarily think you know, oh, going through a pandemic and everything is a good thing. But maybe it is a good thing for employers to finally have to look and see. You know, and realize, like we need to treat people like people reevaluate what you're doing, and how you're treating these people. I you know, this is everything that I've been, you know, saying and everything that I've been the people that I talked to, again, you know, this is going back to the, you know, my core values, the things that I truly believe and, and you know, I could talk about this for the next three hours, you'd probably be like, okay, Leighann, let me can I get back to my life?

AJ Kruse 19:12 I wouldn't go with you on that journey. Right.

Leighann Lovely 19:16 But you know, so I just I wanted to intervene and just say like, I mean, that is, that is 100% awesome. I and this really comes down to you know, the whole health and wellness piece of you know, what I am all about, of, you know, you can't, and I'm going to everybody who's going to be listening to me, they're going to hear this a million times you can't leave your emotional baggage at the door when you walk into work. If you're truly you're a human person. You walk into work, you're human and you're gonna bring your real self there and employers have to accept it. We this is no longer in the you know, the the 60s the 70s. When you drop your bag at the door come in Then you become a worker bee. And it's all 100% business. No, I'm sorry, life happens. And it's messy. So

AJ Kruse 20:07 Yeah, I completely agree. I'm going to stay on that with you though, because, you know, I talked a little bit about human works being, you know, being the result of 25 years of successful sort of ideas being put together with how to, you know, how to create an environment for people at work. And I don't know if I did. I don't know if I did true justice to really all the, you know, all the thinking that was behind sort of the start of what we did, or what we're doing with humanworks and what we're we're working to build. You reminded me of taglines something that we were saying to each other when we were drawing up the foundational beliefs of humanworks. And the thing we said back and forth to each other a lot is working life aren't mutually exclusive. So everything you just said, There, that's something that we were saying to each other, it turned into a tagline for us Leanna turned into work brought to life brought to work that's sort of the tagline that that got attached to him and works. But the thinking that came behind that it really went back to, there are 7.7 Give or take billion people in the world. That's a lot of people. And here's sort of the amazing thing. All 7.7 billion people share eight things, at least, that's what we believe we're all completely different. We're all completely unique. We all have different needs, the list goes on and on and on. But at the same time, when we're talking about what people need, at work. And in life, it's it's not different between in work and in life, but what people need, we found these eight things that sort of unite all people. So eight things can sort of bringing everybody together, these eight things that we all share. And those are really where we were we start with everything that we do with a business or everything that we do with a leader or with a team within a business, from a service and from a work perspective. We start our thinking there. What are those eight things? Well, I'll share him cricket. That's okay. Yeah, um, the eight things that we believe, you know, these, these are amazing qualities that unite all people. Everyone's unique, it starts there, I know I said 7.7 billion people, we're all different. But everyone's truly unique. That means we each have a uniquely different, you know, grouping of strengths, abilities, drivers, you get the idea, each one of us is truly unique. Everyone is unique and needs to be treated that way. Everyone believes to us all around the values that we just talked about the vision that you know, that each of us has, but that organizations have when they connect to people. So everyone's unique. And everyone believes that the first two after that everyone connects, which is about relationships, relationships, and teamwork, everyone contributes, which is about our ability to question challenge and communicate with each other. Everyone rises, which is really about leadership and the systems that we create, to empower people and leaders that everyone learns, which of course is about growth, everyone thrives, it's about well being which you just brought up. And then everyone matters, which is really about the belonging that I think we're sort of leaving, our conversation is sort of leading us there a little bit. It's that idea that you said don't drop your bags at the door and become a different human being when you walk through the doors at work, because you can't, No you won't. There might be things you want to keep private I, I totally get that there are things about your life, you might not want to bring into every conversation, you, we all get that. But your strengths are going to change your needs are going to change who you are isn't going to change when you walk through. It is about bringing work to life and life to work by expecting people to be human by expecting leaders to lead that way and help leaders understand how to do that. So that's that last piece everyone matters is really about creating belonging, and within the teams regardless of our differences, regardless of our uniqueness, creating belonging within teams, so that we, we can, when we're at work, we can get together and we can accomplish everything together better. That's really what it's about.

Leighann Lovely 24:04 Right? And that's, I agree with everything that you said it we have to be it is it is far too much work. And it's far too exhausting to create two personalities to be one person at home, and one person at work. It's exhausting, that plain and simple. I cannot go to work and pretend that I don't have a life, that I don't have a child at home that I don't have a husband that you know, at home, and I'm sorry, but I am who I am. And I'm going to be my authentic self wherever I am. And you know what? When I finally decided that I wasn't going to play a role at work anymore. And I was going to be myself people liked me to help you know a hell of a lot more. Because it was just it was so much easier. It was so much easier to break down that wall and just say enough is enough. And I think that the world is finally ready for that they're finally Ready for people just to just be themselves. And the only reason I tried to put up that wall was because for so long I lived under that shame of people are going to find out that I have bipolar disorder, people are going to find out that I, you know, suffer from a mental health, and I'm not going to be able to work here anymore. But you know, enough is enough. And yeah,

AJ Kruse 25:23 Yeah, well, you know, it's funny, what I heard you say just now was the difference between you trying to sort of take that piece of your life and quiet it down or park it somewhere else at the door, or leave it in the car in the parking lot? And the difference that happened for you when you said, No, I'm, I've just got to be me. I just, I just need to be authentic to you. I need to, I need to walk through the door with everything I've got. And just be me and be open and honest about that. The difference I heard was the confidence to me, I'm guessing, and you can answer for sure and but to me, when you started sort of being who all of you at work. I'm guessing you've got more, you are more confident. I'm also guessing your work, you got better results. I'm guessing you did better work than I'm guessing that you I don't know. You tell me what do you think?

Leighann Lovely 26:12 Absolutely. Because I removed the fear. I removed that fear of people aren't going to like me, because they know this piece about me. And once you remove that fear that that shame or whatever it is, that you're holding back because of and there's always a reason. There's it even if you don't understand what that reason is, you're holding something back and people, people know it. And I removed that fear of people aren't going to like me if they know this, and don't get me wrong, I wasn't running through the hall screaming I have bipolar disorder. I just know. Right? No, I just I just, you know, instead of, you know, trying to dumb down the, you know, the parts of me that I thought people aren't going to accept this, you know, I just, I just stopped I just started, you know, what, I'm just going to be myself. And by removing that fear that people weren't going to like me, I became more myself than I've ever been in my life. And that confidence came out, removing that fear, you know, allowed me to be more productive. It allowed me to talk to people more authentically, it allowed them to see who my true self was, and that personality that I truly have was, and when I saw that happening, I went wow, I don't have to live under that, that cloud of shame for who I am. And that's what it's all about. And, and again, now I'm taking over here, this is not about me. But, and I love that you know you that you're an advocate for this in, in so many ways, and what you do in your business is training people on these things and talking with, you know, business leaders, you know, about how to learn and, but it's this is a self discovery thing that people have to, you know, they, they have to discover this on their own or working with somebody.

AJ Kruse 28:14 And sometimes they need some permission. Leighann, I think to your point there I you know, I, I appreciate your story so much, you know, I because I think especially when it comes to challenges that come with, you know, mental health, those are, those are the challenges you can't see, you know, it's, it's one thing to say, Well, I was walking into the building at work, and I noticed someone coming who, you know, had a physical handicap was in a wheelchair, you know, maybe had a very visible challenge, right. And, you know, it was my opportunity to hold the door to offer support, that sometimes people people have a challenge that's really clear, it's really evident, it can be seen, mental health challenges aren't aren't and, and they aren't things you can see they, they aren't things anyone would otherwise know. They might know your they could they may have known your land, you might have had co-workers that knew you were struggling to a certain degree before you made that, you know, shared or known, and they could see something was wrong or challenging you to get up but maybe they were afraid to ask maybe they weren't sure what to do. So you know, they gave a little space or something like that. What I think it really comes down to for employees is working within an environment within a team to go back to those eight things where everyone does matter and and they know that there's some belonging there it's safe to share where that challenge is coming from. They're supported and sharing that and and that helps them get at their best work. It helps when you go back to that idea of competence and you getting to your best work. It can help them get their best work by being who they are at work being open about you know, what they choose to share and being an environment where they feel supported. They know their leader welcomes that wants to hear about their life wants to know how they're doing cares about them. Right and wants to find ways to support them in doing their work. So I've had the privilege to sit in a lot of strategic planning meetings, that's something that, you know, human works, does as a service, you know, we're there, sometimes with leadership teams at those at those points in the year where they're sitting down with a senior leadership team putting heads together and saying, Alright, how are we going to execute the vision, you know, this quarter this year, they're having those important conversations. It's something that it's sort of a privilege to be part of those conversations fun. It's always exciting. It's always entertaining. It's always fun to challenge those groups. And, you know, more and more and more people make the list. Isn't that exciting. So, you know, to rewind the clock back to, you know, talking about the challenges that companies are facing, but even talking about some of the positives that are coming from the challenge of the last, you know, give or take 20 months, people are making the list more and more and more in those strategic planning conversations, that tells me, more and more senior leaders are saying, I can't ignore this. You know, I often tell people this, I often say most reasonable people, if you start talking about employees and work and some of the things that you and I are having an exchange about right now, the most reasonable people, when you say, you know, doesn't it really all come down to people, we're called human works as a business. So I feel like I can throw that out there doesn't really all come back to people. It doesn't all come down at the end of the day. Some people don't like that phrase, but at the end of the day, doesn't come down to people. Most everybody. In fact, I don't know, I don't know if I've ever met any leader who could honestly not say yes, I'm privileged to work with leaders who say yes to that question. But most people go, you know, yeah, but the difference there is not, there are very few leaders who are confident about how to answer the rest of the question, which is, well, well, then what? Well, so what? So if it all comes down to people? What are you going to do about it in your business? What are you going to do about it for your workforce? What are you going to do about your employee experience all the words that we attached to this, this thing we call life and work? You know, what are you going to do about it leader at work? If it really all does come down to people finding agreement on the answer to that question. That's where we don't get so much agreement, or that's where it's hard. That's where I'm not sure what the right answer is. What do you think? So that's where the door opens, fortunately, for for human works, or my team to have that conversation and to, and to share some of our beliefs about Well, here's, here's what you can think about. How do you do that at your company, based on who you are? And what you do? You know, what should you be doing? That I think, to me, is one of the greatest positives to go back to that silver lining of all the challenges we face in the last 20 months. There's the silver lining, it's that more and more senior leadership teams, more and more people are asking the question, what should I be doing for my people? Because, you know, you're right, it really does all come back to people. We have to let people bring work to life and like to work, we have to do those things. So so how do I answer that question, you know, helped me answer that question. And so that's a silver lining to me, what comes from that? Well, when an employer commits to that when it's on the strategic plan, when they've said yes to that, and it's they they've dedicated themselves to some actions that support that. That's where the confidence comes in. That's where that silver lining comes in. You know, we talked about your confidence, I was just talking with a leader just a couple of weeks ago, who had the she had the guts to say to the rest of the leadership team. I don't know about all of you. But I can tell I'm different as a leader, because I'm afraid of losing people. I'm not at all confident anymore. I'm scared to call out things that I don't like, because I don't want to upset or frustrate someone because they're gonna walk and I don't know how to replace them. I don't know if we can find somebody quick enough. And I and we need to keep the lights on the doors open. We need to keep this this this business running. That was a leader with very little confidence. Scared, you talked about fear, right? So what comes in when we start doing the right things with our team and our people? When we start answering that question, what do we need to be doing for people confidence comes back. Because what comes in behind that our actions around those core values we talked about, when a company starts being who they are, and being who they say they are and living their values. There's a lot of confidence that comes back when that happens when they've got a clear strategic plan. So clear. So communicated that the you know, the everyday entry level employee who walks to the door or signs on at home says I know how what I'm doing today. I know how that impacts the 10 year goal for my company, this big, huge, audacious vision of my company. I know how I add to that. I think I just think that's amazing. You know, I think confidence come comes back when there's a model for leadership when When when leaders leadership on the team says no, this is how we lead, this is how we hold accountable. This is how all the leaders that are business do that. And when there are talent practices, and when those human touch points of the business are really clearly defined, really supported, you know, talent practices that you know, that lean into individual strength and accountability. I think when those things are there, that leader who's at the table saying, I'm scared, I'm scared to lead. Their competence comes back. So I'm not scared to lead. I know what we're doing is right. I know, we are who we say we are. I know. I know. We've got the plan and the vision. I know how we lead.

Leighann Lovely 35:35 Yeah. Well, we are coming to our time. And I have one last question. I'm asking everybody this question this season. So if you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path? When would that be and why?

AJ Kruse 35:55 The moment in my career that maybe made the biggest difference, I can kind of pinpoint a really interesting conversation. So I think I told you, I made the leap from elementary education, teaching schoolchildren into corporate development, corporate learning organizational development, it wasn't really a smooth transition, it's sort of have a couple of stops along the way, for a little while I was working in retail management. And Retail Management taught me a lot about people taught me a lot about managing and leading people. But what I was really hunting for what I was really searching for was something in corporate education, working in education with with, with a with a company, and, and I had an interview with the individual who would become my boss, the individual who become my leader, the individual who would invite me to join this new startup humanworks, that they were starting to be a key contributor there. So at the end of that interview, Sean asked me, this person said, what's something that I really ought to know about you? That I don't know? Yes. You know, tell me something that I really ought to know if I'm going to work with you. So I had to think for just a second. And you know, the answer that I gave this exchange that we had, it stands out as a pretty critical moment in my life, I had convinced myself walking through those doors, you know, I'm in a job now I can support my family, but it's not what I'm really looking for. So I'm just going to be 100%. Me, I'm going to be as honest as I possibly can be, even if I don't think that's the answer they want to hear. So bland back to what you were saying about just bringing your full self to wherever you are, I had I had promised myself, I would do that. So after a little bit of thought, I told them, Look, this job is never going to be the most important thing in my life. But I want to love it, I want to do great at it. And I want to be the absolute best I can be at it if you give me the opportunity. But you need to know, this job is never going to be the most important thing in my life. But I will give you everything I've got if you give me the shot. So that conversation, it ended well makes me It chokes me up just a little bit, because it was pretty pivotal. Because I think it was where that relationship really started the relationship. You know, what's resulted in a lot of learning, it's resulted in a lot of opportunity. But to your point, I would say to anybody who's struggling with maybe doing what you were talking about earlier, being who they really are at work sort of being open, being honest, being themselves. I think I would just say you're going to be really happy, if you do.

Leighann Lovely 38:39 That's amazing. So he accepted you. You were honest. And he hired you.

AJ Kruse 38:47 Yeah, um, and it wasn't, it wasn't. It wasn't a quick smooth hire I ran into, I had an injury that happened at my other job shortly after that interview. It took me a long time to recover. I had a lot of challenges following it is really an interesting part of life. And I know you might not have time for all of that, other than to say, you know, right after that interview, yeah, I had that injury at work. Something tripped me up. And and not only did they hire me, they waited six months to do it. So

Leighann Lovely 39:17 and you wrote an he wrote an article about this.

AJ Kruse 39:20 Yeah, I did. I did. And it's something that it's something obviously, kind of a kind of an important piece of life for me, right. So when you asked me what's something that made a huge difference is the first question that came to mind. But yeah, I did write an article about it. There was a you know, there was part of the injury. It was really physical. I was I was stopping a shoplifter and the shoplifter shot me so they pulled out a gun. They didn't want to stop that day. They shot me. I mean, thank goodness, I'm okay. I survived. You know that injury came with a lot of physical pain, a lot of physical challenges. It also came with a lot of emotional challenges. A lot of a lot of emotional Fallout and psychological challenges and PTSD. And working through that, that part was harder than the physical part. So, um, so yeah, the injury that took six months to, to get me ready to go even try going back to the work that happened the day after that interview that I mentioned. So, it when it comes to, you know, how employers look at people how they think about people, and, you know, getting the right person there for the right job and things like that, those moments were, you know, incredibly impactful in my, in my life, in my experience, my story, and reinforced so much of what we we talk about it human works, what we believe in it, human works, where all those beliefs came from. So I'm in a unique position right now, where I get to work with companies to instill the kind of values that made a very profound difference for me,

Leighann Lovely 41:01 That's awesome. And, you know, people like you and me, we're driven by something that has impacted our lives, which makes it that much more important and impactful in the way that we that we do things, and I applaud you for sharing that. And, you know, I will, I will put a link to your article. So if somebody is interested in reading more about that they can find that article.

AJ Kruse 41:31 Thanks. While I appreciate you taking on the story, receiving it from me, yeah, I it's, it's always kind of a wild, kind of a wild story to share, as I'm sure you've learned with your own personal story. But, um, like I said, the opportunity to the opportunity to instill the values, share the values and live the values that made a profound difference in my life. That's valuable, and sort of a cherished thing for me. So I would hope that everyone who hears this, everyone who who listens and gets connected to the kinds of things you're talking about, Leighann just sort of stays on the path of learning as much as they can about that. And has competence and a little bit of bravery. It takes I think, to to be who they are at work to live their own values and find find situations not only in their work life, but in their personal life that support the those values that they carry on hold. So dear.

Leighann Lovely 42:32 Well said, AJ, thank you so much for coming and talking with me today, today, and, you know, sharing your story and talking about human works. It's, it's been an amazing conversation. And thank you for being so authentic. And yeah, telling your story. So if somebody is wanting to reach out to you to learn more about humanworks, how would they go about doing that?

AJ Kruse 43:00 Oh, boy, So humanworks. We're on LinkedIn, you can go to humanworks8.com and learn a lot about us there. That's human works with the number eight.com otherwise, yeah, I just I invite people to connect directly with me on LinkedIn AJ Kruse K R U S E, look me up, find me connect with me. Or, you know, reach out by email and those are really easy to it's just A J at humanworks 8 .com

Leighann Lovely 43:30 Excellent. Thank you and you have a wonderful day.

AJ Kruse 43:34 Thanks, Leighann. Appreciate the opportunity.

Leighann Lovely 43:37 Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode, to follow us, like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

AJ Kruse - LinkedIn - linkedin.com/in/aj-kruse

Humanworks website - https://humanworks8.com/

The article referenced in this conversation - Bursting Bubbles - Injuries, by AJ Kruse https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/bursting-bubbles-injuries-aj-kruse/

Music by Cruen - Family Time

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

View Details

Join me and Robb Conlon as he takes the reigns to interview me about Let's Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation.

Leighann Lovely 0:15 Let's talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners, and employees to come together and share experiences, to talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely. So let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us and share us.

Leighann Lovely 1:04 Welcome to my first episode of Let's Talk HR humanizing the conversation. I am so excited to have a friend and a fellow podcast host helped me launch this episode as a co-host, Rob Conlon, whether he is recording audiobooks, advertisements, building and hiring for multimillion-dollar clients service departments, or creating Stevie's award-winning social media experience for millions of customers or producing one of the dozens of podcasts he's been involved in. Robb has been at the forefront of building great jobs for others for nearly 15 years, using his unique blend of sales, marketing hiring, know-how and radio voice, Robb is your guide to navigating the fires of recruiting hell, Robb lives with his wonderful wife and three sweet rabbits in beautiful Port Washington, Wisconsin. And I am just thrilled that I have him with me today to launch the new podcast that I'm thrilled to get started. So without further ado, welcome, Rob, I am so glad that you agreed to help me launch my podcast. And before you flip the script on me and kind of interview me, I would love to hear what's happening in your world, because I know that you've had some pretty amazing milestones over the last year, especially with your podcast, I'm excited to hear about it.

Robb Conlon 2:43 Thanks again, for having me here. It's always fun to launch a new show. And actually, I call shows like yours that I've either consulted on or been a part of the brainstorming session for or even helped to actually produce. I call them my podcasts, children in this case. And now, my show Recruiting Hell, I think he's got six kids now, which is wild. It's a pretty neat thing. So a lot of stuff has been going on in my world. Folks may not know, but I produce podcasts professionally. That is what pays my bills pays my mortgage, which is a fun thing. And we generally do that for Business to Business Show. So while we're not necessarily you know, into true crime or anything like that, my world revolves around podcasting from about 7:50 in the morning until well, depending on how late the night is five o'clock, today I'm recording this recording another one with another great podcast friend of mine at 7:30. So we'll probably go until about 9:00 so, 12-14 hours of podcasting.

Leighann Lovely 3:45 That's awesome. And you're, brilliant, not only at your own podcast but brilliant. I mean, you've been so helpful. You've given me such amazing advice through my journey, not only on sometimes hard advice of things that I'm like, Oh, wow, okay, I can do better. But you're you really you're a wealth of information. And it's amazing to have a friend like you. Let me just say that, but thank you. I mean that from the heart. So, you've had some major milestones, with Recruiting Hell, I mean, it's grown. Your audience has grown. Congratulations on that.

Robb Conlon 4:31 Yeah, thank you. Actually, I just got my Spotify rewind the other day. And when you think about it as a small creator, it's really tough to see, like low numbers sometimes. Like, Oh, I got four downloads a day, it's like, that's great. But it's also like four downloads. We're not all Joe Rogan. None of us are gonna be Joe Rogan, unless we're exceptionally lucky or exceptionally skilled. In that case, you got to kind of be the unicorn of that. But the thing about podcasting, the thing about making them is that it's not necessarily for mass consumption, you're not making the next Last Podcast On The Left for horror or true crime, you're not making my Favorite Murder, you're not making this American Life. Because those have that massive appeal, podcasting can niche down so much into people who are just looking for a job in that case with my show. And I think that for a show like yours, which is something of a cousin to mine, in this case, kind of the other side of the fence, if you will, from recruiting versus, being an actual HR professional and things like that. I think that even a small audience and a dedicated audience can be way better than a mass consumption audience. So that's something that, we look at creating inside of this space. And I think that's something that everybody should be proud of. I had in that rewind, they said, You're the top podcast that 15 People listened to this year, and I'm like, wow, like, okay, like, that's actually pretty cool. But there were also some other really neat numbers for me of like, you've been in 56 countries, you doubled your downloads, and all sorts of cool stuff. And that's been a lot of major milestones. I just ended what I call series three of the show, series, four is in production right now. And trying to level it up, every time has gotten progressively harder, which is a funny thing. But the nice thing about podcasting, and the cool thing that I think will work for your show, Leighann, is that taking the best from other shows in your genre, and leaving the things that they do, that you don't like behind is super helpful. So, I'm really excited to see where your show goes. And I'm excited to see how I can continue to give back to the world of, professional podcasting, whether it's in as a guest as a host as a producer, or even just as a resource for anybody out there and invited to be listening to this. Reach out to me on LinkedIn. Seriously, I love talking to people about this stuff, like 24/7. Robb Conlon - Linkedin Profilelinkedin.com/in/robbconlon86

Leighann Lovely 7:10 Yeah, you're a geek in your own way, just like I'm a geek in HR. Right. I suppose your passion comes across when you talk about it. And that's, I guess, hopefully, what's gonna happen when people listen to my podcast? And with that said, why don't you take the reins

Robb Conlon 7:31 Sure thing and you know, that's, you mentioned your podcast, and you previously had a podcast, that was really fun to be on. I was a guest on that as well. And you're starting a new one right now. Tell me a little bit about what happened. Why the change?

Leighann Lovely 7:47 Yeah, so I did, I had a podcast, I brought the idea to my previous company. And it was designed to reach out to individuals that were interested in knowing what was happening in the world of HR. I really enjoyed that. But I was tied to, and it was tied to the company that I was working for. And that being said, I was under the constraints of making sure that I was representing that company and the topics. So I decided on a personal level that I wanted to do more. And I wanted to be able to take my own spin on it. And bring in my own personality, to impact people in a way that brought in my flavor of what I'm trying to, you know, get out to the world. And that being said, I'm a huge supporter of mental health, if you are working in an organization that doesn't see eye to eye with you, and I'm not saying that my last organization didn't, I guess you're kind of under the constraints of making sure that you're not inappropriately represented them. And since this is now mine, I get to tell the world, my story, and I get to, interview people, and talk about whatever, interests me on a personal level. So I just feel like I can do so much more. I feel like I can talk about so much more, and really impact people on a different level. Because now I have the opportunity to talk about those things that are personal to me. And like I said, huge mental health supporter, I've experienced struggles with mental health on my own. And I want to be able to you talk about that on an HR level on a human level on how does that impact the workforce? You know, how does hiring a neurodiverse individual affect the workforce and why aren't we talking about that? Why aren't we talking about, so many other topics that I'm looking forward to, bringing forward as my first season rolls out?

Robb Conlon 9:57 That's outstanding, and I think cracking open some of the tougher eggs, if you will, there and having the freedom to do so without somebody may be putting on some handcuffs, if you will and say, Yeah, we don't want you to talk about that. Because it's either not germane to the business that you're working in or directly, you know, sometimes having that mental health episode doesn't drive revenue. And that's a business sense thing in some cases, and I hope nobody thinks that I'm a proponent of that. But I can see where somebody who is a bean counter, could very much be like, Well, that didn't interview like a prospect for us, or whatever it might be. So, right, I'm really glad that you.

Leighann Lovely 10:39 Go ahead. No, and as an owner of a company, I completely understand that how is this benefiting us? I do I totally, completely agree, you know, is having this conversation? Or is this going to turn off a small population of people who otherwise would have worked with us if you have this conversation? And again, I get it. But the way that I look at it is I am authentic, I am who I am. You can choose to work with me or not work with me. I guess I just want to be able to be my authentic self. And you can make your own decision, you know, on whether or not you want to talk with me, work with me, be friends with me

Robb Conlon 11:23 Well, you're wonderful to be friends with, anybody who doesn't want to be right has something wrong with them. But in this case, you know, it's kind of interesting that you talk about the, drive behind that, you know, I can create a control for a host and for creator, super important, especially when I see this in my job where marketing departments come in, and they put handcuffs on those hosts. And they say you're gonna talk about this, but people don't want to hear about them. Bill, people want to get, you know, get the host in there and, hear their perspective. Well, that doesn't line up with the company. So Right. There's a lot of butting heads. It's not just you know, this transition for Leighann. But it's also you know, it's widespread throughout the business world, I think it's a brilliant idea that you've taken this into your own arena. And you can hold court with it, which is just fabulous. So, again, looking forward so much to seeing how this goes. But there was one other thing that was I thought really interesting, that dovetails right into this, you made a job change not too long ago, what drove that decision? And how did you arrive at that?

Leighann Lovely 12:28 You know, this is obviously, we all know, an employee market. It's a candidate market. And I looked around at my family, at my life, and I thought, I'm not entirely happy. I'm not completely unhappy. But I'm not, I'm not going to work every day with this huge smile on my face. I know, there are a lot of people out there that do jobs, and they're not necessarily excited to get started. But in this market, you have the opportunity to change that, you have the opportunity to do something that you can get excited about. I had a conversation with one of my girlfriends the other day, and she says, Well, I'm just a server. And I said, No, no, you're not. You're not just anything in this world anymore. I think that the world has shined a light on the importance of every single job that exists from the servers, from the person who pushes the broom. Every position out there is vital. And we saw it when all of the sudden people are like, well, I want to go out to dinner. Well, there are no people to serve you. Those people are extremely important, because, hey, I enjoy being able to go out to dinner. And you know what, if there's nobody at those restaurants, I don't get that small, little pleasure that I normally am used to, I have 100 times more appreciation for those jobs. And all of a sudden it is a lot easier for me to go, No, we need to pay or give a much larger tip. Because they're busting their butts, they're showing up to work. And if you don't like what you're doing every day, why are you doing it, we now have the opportunity to change the narrative of what we are and how we live our lives because jobs are everywhere. So, getting back to your question, because I went on a rant. Why did I make that change? I wasn't entirely happy. So I started to look and in looking realized that I can also take control of a podcast. And there were just so many other opportunities. It's time for me to change my narrative. And when I started meeting with companies, I told them flat out. If you hire me on, I'm going to do a podcast. It's going to be mine. I'm going to own it and you're going to get the entire package. Not one company said, No, we don't want you to do that. They were all like, great, you want to have a side hustle, you want to go and have had a company said, No, we don't like that. I mean, it would have been hands down. No, I'm not interested, in working there. See you later, right companies now want the authentic people, they want people who are, you know, are passionate about other things or passionate about the job that they're coming in to do. I'm in the HR world, I joined a company Vaco (www.vaco.com) there, they're new to the Wisconsin market. They were looking to beef up their sales team on the staffing side that takes care of finance and accounting, and support staff and they needed a sales rep to you know, basically start-up that side of the business. And I went, Wow, this is a perfect opportunity for me to leave the general labor market, which is very rough right now. Yeah. I move into a position that I am very passionate about still in HR. And I jumped at it. And there were other companies that, you know, were pursuing me that I was very interested in. But I met my now manager, he was so like-minded with me that I think we talked about business for 10 minutes, we could probably talk for two hours about everything else. And that's the kind of company that's the kind of people that I want to work with. So it was hands down. I haven't been happier. I've been revitalized in my job. And I'm so excited. It's only been a couple of weeks. And I'm just so excited to take on the world again. Again, if there are people out there who are considering it, now is the time. Take a look around if you're not happy, now is the time. And I am, you know, with a staffing company, so please don't hesitate to reach out,

Robb Conlon 17:12 You're absolutely correct that it is it's an employee market right now. And in my lifetime, I've never seen that. I've never, ever seen that in my lifetime, it's always been that the companies hold most of the cards. And if you're an employee, you're lucky, maybe you do have a few cards to play. But it sounds likely that you took a number of those cards that you had in your hand and you really powered and leverage them into something that's a new opportunity for you and you even said yourself, you're revitalized, you're charged back up, you're something new, you're something different than what you were just a couple months ago at your old job. So in that style of difference, Leighann, your old show, HRables loved it. Thank you. What's different about Let's Talk HR?

Leighann Lovely 18:02 Yeah, Let's talk HR Humanizing the Conversation. It's not about talking to professionals and saying, Okay, what do you do? And what services do you provide? And how do you do it, it's about diving into, that deeper on, on a human level of, you know, from different angles. I'm not just talking to the HR professionals, I'm not just going to talk to the business owners, I'm also going to bring in the employees. And have them walk me through how did you make that decision? Why did you pass on a company and again, I don't want people to get the wrong impression. This is not going to be Oh, I passed on XYZ company because and bash, it's about education, of, hey, they were offering one week of vacation for the first year. And this company was a same offer but offered three weeks of vacation for the firm. It's about education, it's about the feeling that employees had when they interviewed, it's about, you know, what this business owner is doing that has made them successful, and, how, you know, they've leveled up or pivoted to the world that we're living in now. It's not just simply the technical side of what we do, it has to tie into the emotional side of the world and the human side because that is where this world is going. I mean, people inherently want to be heard and, desire to be cared about, and the companies that are doing that and making their employees feel that they are not a number, that they are more important than that, are going to be the companies that succeed at hiring, training, retaining and retaining is really, I think the most important thing, companies can hire all day long. But if they continue to spit them out the door, they need to really take a good internal look. And there are so many professionals out there right now that are addressing those, but how are they addressing those? How are they addressing those issues? Is it management? Is it training? You know, it's just a lot of things that go into that. And that's really what, this is all about, it's about humanizing the conversations and bringing these professionals together to talk about how we can, I guess make a better world that sounds so cheesy. But

Robb Conlon 20:46 That would maybe make a better, job world, I think is not cheesy at all, I think the job world is something that has been in need of a heck of a house cleaning for I don't know, half a century or so. And I think we're seeing a lot of chickens coming home to roost right now. And I think that the differential that you described there that this is more of the how can we work with people more, here's some HR tactics, I think that's a great differentiator for your show, Leighann, and I think that's why people should tune in, is because getting in touch with the modern, and getting in touch with the way things work in 2021, not 2014, not 1991, not 1976. That is what's going to help companies push forward, finding a much more engaged workforce, there is such an opportunity out there right now for folks who are in industries, like the trades, manufacturing, all of these industries that are generally skilled laborers, where you need some sort of education and things like that. And of course, college degrees can pivot and things like that there's a huge opportunity for these, these industries that have had shortcomings, trucking is another great example, right? To attract brand new talent to their industry, and say, Hey, we're gonna treat you like a darn king. But you're gonna work hard, but we're gonna treat you like a darn king here, right? Because we have benefits second to none.

Leighann Lovely 22:17 Right. And they are people, I think employers have forgotten that people are, they're emotional. And for so long, it was leave your emotions, leave your baggage at the door when you walk into work. I'm sorry, It's not possible. We're not robots. And that way of thinking is just not ok, there's going to be crossover no matter what. For so long it has been the old school way of thinking it, then on the flip side of that, you know, it's been when you get home from work, leave your work at the door. Why not find the balance between I like my job, I can go to my job and not come home, being miserable. And I can go to my job, not feeling like I can't let some of that whatever's happening at home, bleed over just a little bit, as long as it's allowing me to be productive. If that company has programs or systems in place that if somebody is struggling, they can go and get help for that. Here's a perfect example. There. Right now, there's a major issue with childcare, this is not to pick on them in any way, shape, or form, but they're trying to protect the children. So they're shutting down if there's a COVID Scare. Obviously, this is impacting the families, all of a sudden, I can't come to work because my daycare shut down. Well, this is happening very frequently, I was just talking to, a contact of mine. He's like, Oh, my daycare shut down again. And I'm like, Gee, how often is that happening? He's like, constantly. It's happening all the time. So there are some employers that are like, well, you know, you've missed this much work, you're going to get in trouble. As an employer, you have to understand. So put a remote worker system in place so that when that happens, you can roll with it and allow your employees to not feel like they're failing. I mean, I understand there are jobs out there, you can't do remotely.

Robb Conlon 24:33 I can't sling tacos remotely

Leighann Lovely 24:37 This is the world that we are living in. Make it so that your employees don't feel horrible when life happens.

Robb Conlon 24:46 Yes, that's a quotable right there. Make it so your employees don't feel horrible when life happens because life's been happening all over the place here these past couple of years. I really liked that. And I think that the companies that do that the companies that can be flexible are the companies that begin to understand that they're not just this monolithic thing where you will work for the pay that we give you. Yes, yes, we are also generous, the companies that move away from that are the ones that are going to win. And the ones that stay that way, the ones that don't listen to this show, and don't learn the new way of doing things. Those are the ones that are going to be screaming out loud. We can't find anybody to work. Well. Maybe if you paid a living wage had some great benefits and treated people like people, you just might be able to find some folks willing to sign on to your company.

Leighann Lovely 25:37 Right? Those deals, brilliant key factors, livable wage, treat people like people, and benefits. I mean, if you can get those three mastered,

Robb Conlon 25:51 Yep, solves a lot of problems for people, right? yourself included if you're a business owner. Alright. Now, there is one last question I did want to ask you. And I think it's gonna be giving folks a great insight into why they should come and why they should listen to the show and how it's going to benefit them in their HR career and what they're pursuing, making sure that hiring the right people and finding the right folks in this new and wild labor market is going to be so important for them, Leighann, what is a commonly held belief in HR that you completely and utterly disagree with

Leighann Lovely 26:31 HR professionals, get a bad rap, human resource, the corporate human resource often gets a bad rap, nobody wants to go see him/her. And if they see him/her coming, walking towards them, or they're being pulled into HR. I remember, in my younger days, I'd get butterflies in my stomach, like oh my god, am I getting fired. And on the flip side of that, you know, HR truly cares, they do care about, the people. They want to make it better. But often, they're not given all of the resources that they need, or the amount of help that they need. I mean, often, Human Resources has got 50 billion things going on. I mean, if you think about it, they're managing benefits, they're managing every employee complaint they're managing, if somebody stubbed their toe, they're the ones who are overseeing the process, for, pretty much everything. So it's HR professionals do have a tendency to get a bad rap. Now, on the flip side, I think that a lot of employees think that HR is just there to make their lives miserable because they are constantly asking for information. And every time they come around, it's, I need this, I need you to do this, I need you to fill out this, this information I need. And that is not the intent. I mean, they truly, in my, in my experience, if given the option, they would prefer to be down working with individuals. That's why I originally went to school for HR, because they wanted to work with people because they wanted to help people. And it wasn't because I wanted to do all the paperwork or because I wanted to, but that's the job.

Robb Conlon 28:32 And I think a lot of times people see HR, as HR can sometimes work for the company if you will. And that's something for employees to be cautious about. I caution my listener, sometimes HR is not your friend. HR is looking out for the best interests of the company. But at the same time, there is a human side to that too, where sometimes HR is indeed trying to work with people. I love that your belief there. I think it is summed up as, HR isn't always the bad guy. And I really liked that, that's a at least aside

Leighann Lovely 29:06 Unfortunately, they also have to follow certain guidelines in order to avoid lawsuit and there are very delicate processes they are trained on how to handle those delicate processes. And because of that, I think that many of them become very standoffish in certain areas. And after being in the industry, you know, for years and years. I think a little closed off and, again, human resource professionals can't be friends with the employees because they may have to fire them.

Robb Conlon 29:51 Like conflict of interest. Yes. And maybe that's your, HR belief that is you know that it's easy to be an HR person? And it's not. It's not because you have to be a consummate professional if you're not, there's a major problem. Correct? Right. Good deal. Excellent. Well, Leighann I that is bringing us to almost a time here. And I just want to thank you so much for having me on to introduce, Let's Talk HR and listeners if you're enjoying this, this type of discussion so far, very much encourage you to continue to be a part of Let's Talk HR, get in contact with Leighann. Leighann how would a listener best get in contact with you?

Leighann Lovely 30:38 Well, first this podcast will be available anywhere you can listen to the podcast. I am also available on LinkedIn. Robb it has been an absolute pleasure talking with you I really appreciate that you have taken the time to come and talk with me You have no idea how much it means to me, I look forward to more conversation with you in the future.

Robb Conlon 32:20 It's my pleasure and I believe that podcasting is about helping to elevate others as well, when we pull other people up with us we ourselves do better, thank you so much

If you are interested in reaching out to Robb Conlon or learning more about Recruiting Hell https://www.recruiting-hell.com/

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Music by Cruen - Family Time

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