Victors in Grad School: Recent Episodes

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Are you considering graduate school, or searching for that extra spark of motivation to keep you moving forward on your academic journey? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School delivers a truly inspiring conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Lucine Jarrah, a University of Michigan Flint alumna whose path from undergraduate studies to executive director shines a bright light on the power of purpose.

At the heart of this episode is Lucine Jarrah's belief in making a difference through community work. As she recalls, her undergraduate years were marked by activism, organizing with nonprofits such as the Arab American Heritage Council, and building programs aimed at creating social impact. When the idea of graduate school first took root, it wasn't about collecting another credential or checking a box. Lucine Jarrah sought deeper knowledge and tools to drive meaningful change: "I really wanted to understand how systems shape people's lives. That's why I specifically sought out the Master's of Social Work with an emphasis in community change" (03:13).

Throughout their conversation, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Lucine Jarrah explore the transition from undergraduate to graduate life—a leap magnified by the isolation of the pandemic. Building community and camaraderie, even in digital or distanced formats, became a lifeline "[We had to find a way to sort of be in community with each other so that it was safe, but also figure out how we can continue to lean on each other, support each other, and get through this time together" (07:19).

One of the most powerful themes of the episode is learning to manage self-doubt. Like many graduate students, Lucine Jarrah faced imposter syndrome, intensified by the remote learning environment. Her advice? Seek mentors, stay involved, and never shy away from new opportunities—even if they feel intimidating at first. "Having wonderful people in the program… gave me the confidence, the mentorship, the guidance that I needed to ultimately feel like I could pursue all of the things that I wanted" (11:44).

Balance, too, is indispensable—Lucine Jarrah describes the challenge of juggling work, family, and studies, and stresses the importance of organizing, prioritizing, and giving yourself permission to rest.

If you're searching for a graduate school guide grounded in real-world experience, listen to Lucine Jarrah's story. The episode is filled with wisdom about growth, resilience, and the importance of knowing your "why." Tune in, get inspired, and take the first step toward your own journey of purpose-driven success.

Ready to listen? Don't miss this uplifting episode of Victors in Grad School. Your future self will thank you.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we have a great opportunity to be able to work together and help you to be able to move forward in that graduate school journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that goes to graduate school has to go through an individualized journey for themselves to be able to get from where they are to where they want to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: And what's important though, is that there are things that you can do, things that you could do right now that can help you to start thinking Like you're going to graduate school, thinking like you should be to be able to prepare yourself for graduate school, but also doing other things to be able to prepare you for graduate school. And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think in a different way, but also prepare yourself for graduate school in many different ways, because every person is going to have a little bit of a different experience in graduate school. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with those different experiences that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest. Lucine Jarrah is with us today, and Lucine is a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint. She got her undergraduate degree here at the University of Michigan Flint, and then she went on to get her MSW. We'll talk about that journey for herself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:44]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here and to share some of her experiences with you. Lucine, thanks so much for being here today.

Lucine Jarrah [00:01:51]: Thank you, Chris. Excited to—

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I'm excited to have you here today and to be able to talk about your own journey. And I always love being able to start these interviews with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point, at some point in that journey of getting that bachelor's in social work, you made a decision. You made a decision, I'm not going to just stop with that BSW. I'm going to continue on. I'm going to keep going to get my master's in social work. Bring me back to that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]: What was going through your head and why did you decide that graduate school was right for you?

Lucine Jarrah [00:02:29]: Yeah, I mean, I had a really amazing undergraduate experience here at the University of Michigan Flint. And, you know, during my time, I was really involved on campus. I was organizing on and off campus, actually, and I was getting really excited about thinking, you know, where I wanted to take my career and I was getting involved with some local nonprofits in the area, like the Arab American Heritage Council, and worked on numerous other campaigns related to general GOTV, getting out the vote, and then also like the widely known campaign, the One University campaign, which was about getting more funding and resources to the University of Michigan-Flint. So my role in all of that work and wanting to be able to do more and have more tools at my disposal to do more, I think was the biggest motivating factor for me to start thinking about grad school in a really serious way. I had all this wealth of experience doing organizing work and helping build programs, working with communities, but I really wanted to understand how systems shape people's lives. And that's why I specifically sought out this program at U of M Ann Arbor, the Master's of Social Work with an emphasis in community change. So for me, you know, it wasn't, it didn't feel like a random next step. It felt like something that was really connected to this question that I was having, which was, you know, how can I do more? How can I build my skills, improve my skills, improve my access to tools so that I can do better for my community?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:43]: And really, you answered my next question, which really was, you did go to the University of Michigan for that MSW program. Great program, and definitely has opportunities for being able to delve into the community work research and being able to better understand the people around you. But one of the questions that I always ask is, there are many different master's programs that are out there, and you kind of already explained, and you said that U of M's program was the right fit for you, and maybe that was the only program that you applied to. But were there other things that you were looking at when you were thinking about graduate schools that really allowed for you to be able to whittle that list down? Or was it really that there was just one that you really wanted?

Lucine Jarrah [00:04:24]: So what was appealing to me about this particular program was the community change pathway. I think there's always been a very narrow view of social work. People tend to think of social work as very limited in scope when it's actually very, very broad in scope. And so there was something really exciting to me about pursuing something like social work and being able to do work that was very much connected to community organizing and systems-level change and all of that. And so I think it— At the time, I was sort of just asking myself the question, what kind of work am I trying to do? What skills do I need to grow into that work? Am I choosing grad school because it aligns with those goals or because I feel pressured to do it, to check a box? I was really, you know, doing a deep dive into thinking about these questions very seriously. And ultimately, I decided that it was a good fit for me because it was going to allow me to better service my community, which was the ultimate goal for me, and bring that knowledge and expertise back into the community, which is exactly what I did after grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:17]: I moved back to Pakistan. Now, every person goes through transitions as they go from one academic program to the next, one level of academic program to the next. And the way you're taught in undergrad is going to be very different than the way you're educated at the graduate level. And the expectations are different. Faculty are going to be expecting different things of you as a learner yourself. Talk to me about the journey that you went on yourself. And you were successful in that journey. You got through, you got your master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:45]: Talk to me about the transitions that you had to go through. And what did you have to do at the beginning of your graduate school journey to to transition into graduate school? And what did you have to do throughout that graduate school experience to maintain that success?

Lucine Jarrah [00:06:01]: That's a good question. And honestly, I went into grad school at a really interesting time. I was— it was in the middle of the pandemic, actually. And so I was going into a field that really, for me, is all about community, right? It's about interacting with people on a pretty regular basis. And so to be living through a time where we were all super disconnected and far away from each other physically was really different and something I had to sort of navigate in the program while I was moving to Ann Arbor and getting acclimated to this new grad school journey. And so that was really different and something that I didn't necessarily expect. And I was really concerned about, you know, how it was going to impact my experience as a student and what I was going to be able to gain from the experience of doing the master's program. Because for me, you know, I was really excited about being able to do my internship and being able to work off campus.

Lucine Jarrah [00:06:50]: For me, it was at a place called the Center for Community Well-Being. And so I was really excited about the opportunity to be in person and work with colleagues and talk about programs and do all of that work, you know, in person in a collaborative way, in a way that I was used to doing. And so that was certainly a challenge for me, you know, going into grad school is very different than my undergrad years where I was constantly on campus. I practically lived on campus. And I was, you know, always doing after-school things and always attending community events. And so we had to find a way to sort of be in community with each other so that it was safe, of course, during the pandemic, but also, you know, figure out how we can continue to lean on each other, support each other, and get through this time together. So we, you know, we found ways. It was not without its challenges, but we found ways to get through it.

Lucine Jarrah [00:07:35]: And I think the biggest credit I could give is just being able to surround myself with such incredible people who were willing to take that challenge very seriously and still find ways to connect and just be with each other even under difficult circumstances.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:47]: Now, you mentioned a little bit earlier that after graduate school, you went back to your home community. You came back to Flint and you started working back at the Arab American Heritage Council and transitioned into that type of work again, after being involved with them as a younger individual working as an undergraduate student. And you have since transitioned into becoming the executive director of the Arab American Heritage Council. And I guess I would be interested to dig a little bit into the takeaways in the sense that you think back to your, your graduate school experience, and you learned a lot of different things. it relates to community work and relates to working with people. But talk to me about how you're utilizing what you learned in that graduate work on a daily basis.

Lucine Jarrah [00:08:38]: Yeah, I mean, it's every day, right? So much of my graduate education was about learning to understand how systems and structures operate. I was in, you know, investigating systems and structures at a federal level. So how do agencies and institutions, organizations that we rely on, how do they operate? How do we ensure and hold them accountable so that they are actually effective and delivering delivering for community in a meaningful way. So a lot of these things I was exploring and unpacking in the classroom throughout my graduate school years. And so coming back into this job, I felt very much equipped with the knowledge and honestly with the advocacy framework to be able to then through the AHC do the work of fighting for that accountability, fighting for that oversight, and thinking more transformatively about how do we want systems to actually work for communities. How can we improve them? How can we imagine better for our communities and not just think in the ways that we've been sort of programmed to think about these systems and structures? So coming into the AHC right after grad school, I thought I was on top of the world and very excited about all of the ways that I was going to be able to utilize what I had learned in school and now actually be able to incorporate it into my work in the advocacy space, in the programming space, in all spaces through the Heritage Council to improve the mission and help advance the mission of the Heritage Council, but also help build the political power of our communities here in Flint and Genesee County so that we can again feel empowered in our ability to imagine better for our society, for our community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:04]: One of the things that I would be interested in hearing from you on is every person as they go on into graduate school at one point or another run up against that proverbial wall when it comes to whether or not they feel like they truly belong, whether or not they feel like they know enough, that they are enough, that they can be enough to be able to be successful in that graduate school experience that they're going And many times they call it imposter syndrome, but there's other pieces with self-esteem and other things like that that go into it when you're entering into that new type of environment. Talk to me about how that impacted you and whether you did face imposter syndrome or self-doubt during graduate studies, and how did you handle it?

Lucine Jarrah [00:10:50]: Oh yeah, I absolutely did. And I think it was exacerbated by the fact that we were all so disconnected and far away from each other physically, right? So I would say I leaned heavily on identifying mentors in grad school and And not really shying away from any opportunity to get involved in things, even if it felt a little bit nerve-wracking or something that I perhaps wasn't used to doing or didn't have the skill set as somebody else perhaps who was going into it. So really not shying away from the opportunity, but leaning on folks in that space to help guide me and feeling like I, I could build those relationships and lean on those relationships for support. And that helped me a lot. It helped me establish incredible mentors throughout my time in my grad school program. And it allowed me to feel more confident in my ability to take on new challenges. And so, it was certainly a process, and I did go through periods where it felt particularly challenging for me to show up in certain spaces because I didn't necessarily feel like I was meant to be there. But I think having wonderful people in the program constantly in communication with me and working with me and so many other spaces, it gave me the confidence, it gave me the mentorship, the guidance that I needed to ultimately feel like I could pursue all of the things that I wanted to pursue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:59]: And how did you balance both school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going through graduate school?

Lucine Jarrah [00:12:06]: Oh, I have no idea. I have no idea. It was hard. It was really, really hard. I, you know, I had to find a way to get organized. I had to make sure that I wasn't burning myself out. I was still very much connected to the Heritage Council even throughout my grad school years. Actually, that's sort of how I was able to ultimately pursue the executive director job afterwards was staying so connected to the council.

Lucine Jarrah [00:12:28]: throughout undergrad and in grad school. So I was working full-time, I was in school, I, you know, I had family commitments. It was, it was very, very difficult. And I definitely went through periods where I, I had to sort of sit down with myself and reground and, and really think about, you know, you're gonna burn yourself out if you don't take a time to get organized, take time to rest, take time to prioritize things. So it was really a mix of that, right? It was really thinking about, okay, what are the things that I absolutely need to prioritize here and, and commit to? And what are some other things that I can maybe put on the back burner for a little bit? and come back to at a later time. And so again, I think this question is also connected to the last one, which is that having incredible mentors and guidance in grad school, whether that's through faculty, staff, other students, or the relationships I was building with the community, they helped me along the way. They reminded me of the importance of taking time to rest and take breaks and not feel like I have to say yes to everything all the time. And also think about, you know, what does it mean to like meaningfully prioritize the things that I'm doing so that I can commit to them in the ways that I, I want to, right? Because that's the other thing about me is I really want to give 100% commitment to everything that I do.

Lucine Jarrah [00:13:34]: And of course, we're all human. And so doing that for 4 or 5, 6 different things just means you're gonna burn yourself out really fast. So yeah, I definitely give lots of credit to just the wonderful people in my life who continue and to this day continue to remind me to take time to talk about—

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:49]: You talked about the relationships and the mentors that you built and things like that. Talk to me about those relationships and what you had to do to be able to build those relationships with faculty or peers that helped you to find success in that journey.

Lucine Jarrah [00:14:06]: Yeah, I think this is the other thing that can be, you know, nerve-wracking about grad school, going to a grad school that, of course, U of M is a little bigger than U of M Flint. And so the benefit of being at U of M Flint is it felt like you could end class and go up to your professor and talk to them and even walk them to their next class or meeting or go to their office hours. Having the smaller class sizes meant that you were building more intimate relationships with your faculty and professors, whereas going to a place like U of M Ann Arbor, it was a little bit more of a challenge to develop those relationships, but also I was going during the time of the pandemic, which made it even more of a challenge because we were all remote. And so I think what I, you know, ultimately did was I would send emails to faculty that I was, you know, I was really interested in their research or I really wanted to work with them, or I came across something that they were actively involved in in the community. A program they were helping to run, something like that. And so, I would send an email, I would reach out to them, and I would say, you know, I would love to have 5, 10 minutes of your time just to chat with you. And from there, you know, usually they, you know, would either, you know, be honest about their capacity to take on, uh, somebody like an intern or to have somebody shadow them, or they would connect me to another resource. And so, I think just taking that initial step to reach out and express, you know, my interest, express my excitement, my passion for what I want to do, and why I'm interested in working with them.

Lucine Jarrah [00:15:22]: It definitely went a long way. And even if I didn't end up working with that particular faculty member, I always felt like they were wonderful people who were always willing to connect me with others who aligned with my interest and my passion and my work. So it's always just about that first step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]: And how do you find that graduate school changed the way you think, you work, or you approach problems?

Lucine Jarrah [00:15:45]: I think it gave me more of a, I guess, a framework, a new perspective for how I engage in the work that I do. Like I said, I think for me, the appeal of this program, of Master of Social Work program and the Community Change Pathway, was that I was already doing work like this, but I wanted better— I wanted to improve my skills, and I wanted better tools at my disposal so that I can engage in the work in a more meaningful way. And so, you know, for me, it felt like walking away from the program, I felt like I did have a new perspective of looking at my work, a new framework for doing things like advocacy, new connections, new relationships. So it gave me a lot of the things that I obviously still tap into to this day in this work as a nonprofit leader, but also in my other work outside of the Heritage Council as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:40]: No, Now, as you think about the journey that you went on and you think about other individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Lucine Jarrah [00:16:56]: I would say really think about your why. Graduate school is not just about earning another degree. For me, it was about building tools and relationships and the confidence to do the work that you feel called to do, right? For me, it was work in community and in the nonprofit sector. For others, it might be different. But being able to think about your why and have a good solid answer to fall back on is really important because there's going to be numerous challenges that come your way throughout grad school. It's not easy. And to be able to come back and think about, okay, what is my purpose? Why am I doing this? Why did I get myself into this? It's going to be in a really important way to continue to motivate you and inspire you on your path. So I would say absolutely be really thoughtful about why you're doing this, why you are picking the program that you are, and how it's going to continue to inspire and motivate you down the line.

Lucine Jarrah [00:17:55]: And also, I was just going to say, and you also don't have to have all the answers figured out. That was something else I struggled with in grad school is I thought I had to have it all figured out all the time. But it's, you know, it's an opportunity for you to learn and grow, and you might change your mind about things, and that's okay. So don't feel like you have to have it all figured out. It's definitely meant for you to be able to grow and explore new things and answer and find new answers to questions and all of that. So I would just say, be open to it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:30]: Well, Lucienne, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for the great work that you're doing in Flint and within your community. And I truly wish you all the best.

Lucine Jarrah [00:18:42]: Thank you so much, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:43]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you considering graduate school, currently navigating your graduate journey, or reflecting on your academic path? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School delivers invaluable advice and reassurance for anyone on this transformative journey. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis and featuring special guest Rebecca Pettengill, Manager of Foundation and Corporate Relations at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint, the conversation centers on not just navigating graduate school, but truly thriving.

A Non-Linear Academic Journey

One of the most striking themes from this episode is Rebecca Pettengill's unconventional path. Her undergraduate degree took 13 years to complete due to balancing full-time work and part-time studies, proving that there's no single right way to pursue higher education. She's candid about the challenges and delays, yet highlights how building relationships during her undergraduate years later supported her academic and professional pursuits.

Strategic Choices and Growth

When selecting a graduate program, Rebecca Pettengill intentionally chose an MBA over a master's in public administration to diversify her resume and broaden her opportunities. The cohort structure of the program offered much-needed structure and camaraderie, making the rigorous journey more manageable. She also underscores how workplace flexibility and supportive family dynamics were key in finding a balance between professional, academic, and personal responsibilities.

Navigating Barriers and Self-Doubt

Rebecca Pettengill is refreshingly honest about the hurdles she encountered—especially preparing for the GMAT after years away from mathematics. Her perseverance, conditional admission, and commitment to hard work were pivotal to her success. Study groups and supportive peers, including international students, created a collaborative environment where everyone's unique strengths contributed to collective achievements.

Impostor syndrome and self-doubt are realities for many, and Rebecca Pettengill is no exception. She shares how working with a diverse cohort and celebrating small wins helped her realize everyone brings something valuable to the table—even when uncertainty creeps in.

The Power of Relationships

Strong relationships were central to Rebecca Pettengill's journey—whether with faculty who became mentors or classmates who evolved into a reliable professional network. These bonds didn't just provide academic support; they continued to open career doors and create opportunities long after graduation.

Advice for Future Graduate Students

Rebecca Pettengill encourages prospective graduate students to view a master's degree as both a commitment to themselves and a catalyst for lifelong learning. In a world of constant change, advanced education offers both adaptability and new possibilities—regardless of your career stage.

Ready to hear more firsthand wisdom and inspiring stories? Listen to this episode of Victors in Grad School for actionable strategies and a reassuring reminder: your unique path can lead to incredible success.

Tune in now and take the next step in your graduate school journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Rebecca Pettengill [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are getting yourself ready to move toward those goals that you've set in front of you. And for you, it may be that you've already made that application to graduate school. Maybe you're just thinking about graduate school. Maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: No matter where you are in this journey, it is a journey. Because if you're at the very beginning or you're getting close to the end, there are things that you can do right now to be able to find success in this graduate school journey. And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different tips, tricks, things that you can do, some things you can put into your own toolbox to help you to find that success. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school themselves, and for them to allow you to learn from their experience to help you on your journey. Today we got another great guest. Rebecca Pettengill is with us today. Rebecca is the manager of Foundation and Corporate Relations at the Community Foundation of Greater Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: And she has her own graduate school journey, as I've already mentioned. She did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, getting a bachelor's degree in public administration, and then went on from there. We'll talk about that. But I'm really excited to have Rebecca here. Rebecca, thanks so much for being here today.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:01:46]: Thank you, Christopher. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and for sharing your own journey. And I wanna turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And once you got done And then with that degree, you went off, you got some experiences, and had some opportunities to work at the University of Michigan Flint doing development work. And at some point in that transition from undergrad into your professional life, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to not be done. And you decided to go to graduate school. Bring me back to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: What was going through your head? And what made you decide that that was the right time? to go to graduate school?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:02:28]: Well, I had sort of languished in earning my bachelor's degree. I worked full-time and part-time all the while I was working on my degree. And of course, as you grow up, things change in your mind about what you hope for in your career or your life goals. And so, you know, I originally kind of started out in a business degree and then moved more to the public administration side. And that took me 13 years. I don't recommend it highly to incoming freshmen to take that route, but because it delays your earning power later on in life. So, but anyway, I did take that path and everything happens for a purpose, I think, in life and all your experiences add up. So I had a lot of courses all throughout the university and with my career at U of M Flint, actually that turned out to be beneficial because Professors knew me, other department secretaries knew me, people in administration knew me, and, you know, that served me well going forward.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:03:38]: And then I decided to add the master's degree and just to expand my resume, I decided to do the business degree for my master's for a couple reasons. Just like I said, to make my resume a little more broad. And to give me other experiences. At the time, I was working at the recreation center, which was very much considered a business unit at the campus at that time. And so we had goals there as far as earning our keep and not costing the university too much money. Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:18]: So you decided to do the MBA and going through the MBA program, you got your bachelor's in public administration and you could have done a master's in public administration or some other type of a degree. What was it about the MBA that made you decide that that was the right fit and the right program for you?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:04:35]: Well, it was really at the time a little bit where I was at the recreation center in managing the business office there. And then also in the undergrad program, I had taken a lot of the courses, or a number of the courses were shared as master's and bachelor's courses. So I had had some coursework that was already part of the public administration master's. So that was sort of an impetus to do something different with the master's level degree. And so the MBA was kind of in my wheelhouse of experience and so on. I also was drawn to it a little bit because at that time it was set up as a cohort. And so I knew I'd have a set of people and I had a sort of a regimented progression to get through it. And that was helpful as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:30]: Now, for everyone that goes through a graduate program, you go through a transition. You go through a transition from going from undergrad into first, it was for you, for work. And then you went from work back into school after a few years of not being in school. And there is a distinct transition because the way you're educated as an undergraduate student is not the same as the way in which you're educated as a graduate student. And you have to do things to not only set yourself up for success, but be able to prepare yourself for ultimate success throughout the program. So as you think back to that graduate degree and going through the MBA, what were the things that you had to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? And what were some of the things that you had to do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:06:19]: Yeah, a big challenge actually was the GMAT test. And that was where my relationships through campus kind of paid off because they took a chance on me. I didn't score very well in the mathematics section. It had been a long time since I had been in high school mathematics and done those things. And even my undergrad mathematics were something that I took early on. So that was quite a challenge to prepare for that test, to go into it. And I was fortunate they gave me a conditional admit, but I had good grades to back it up and worked hard. And that was where all Also, it was really nice to work with study groups.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:07:03]: Some of us ended up, because it was a cohort, we kind of followed together. And so there was a group of us that worked together and that was helpful too. We had a nice young man from China who was in our cohort and he was very, very helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:19]: Now, when you go into graduate school and you're going through this while you're working and you were working while you were going through this education, there is truly a balance that you have to find. Whether it's through not only your schoolwork, but also balancing work and family and personal responsibilities. Talk to me about what you had to do to find that balance for yourself.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:07:44]: Well, I was kind of fortunate because where I worked at the rec center, the office was open a lot. They were open long hours to accommodate members and students. And so I could kind of flex my time if I needed to. Like if I had an exam coming or something like that, I was able to flex my time a little bit. That was helpful. And then also with my particular family life, my husband always worked late as a UPS driver. And so I had a lot of downtime right after work that I was able to utilize to attend classes. Most of my classes were at night.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:08:23]: And so that worked out in my instance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: I was able to negotiate some of those barriers that other people might Every student goes through a point in which, like you said earlier, when you were going through that GMAT and you hadn't had math in a really long time, that you feel like, am I made for this? Is this right? Am I good enough? And there's that feeling of imposter syndrome or self-doubt that sneaks in. Talk to me about how you faced imposter syndrome or self-doubt during your graduate studies, and how did you handle it?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:08:58]: You know, it's interesting because I think In the different courses, there were different challenges. And so, I remember a lot of our people at that time were working at General Motors, and they were engineers and different things like that. And I remember one of the courses that we had was a simulation where we had to create a business and sell the product and up our manufacturing and all of that. And this One fellow and I ended up in a group together, and neither of us really had that experience, but he had a lot of experience in sales. And so we, against all odds, we ended up prevailing in that simulation on a number of occasions, having sales and being able to amp up production because he knew enough about sales to understand all that. And it just showed me that people that might not seem the strongest for your team or the effort sometimes come through and have that secret sauce that you need to be successful. And it showed the benefit of working with other people with other abilities and strengths.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]: So as you were going through your graduate school journey and you talked about connecting with students like you did in that experience and going through graduate school, a lot of times one of the things that's important is building those relationships and building relationships with other cohort members, but also building relationships with faculty. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build and what relationships ended up being most impactful for you and why.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:10:48]: Well, the course that my career took after having the MBA, I ended up working in the development office or institutional advancement, it might be called now, and I ended up Being the first person that worked in corporate and foundation relations at U of M Flint, there were people in the Ann Arbor campus, and that was helpful to have them as mentors, I would say. But having a diverse set of experiences ended up serving me well in that position, having to assess opportunities for the campus and then knowing the faculty and being able to find out who might be able to take on the opportunity, the grant opportunity or research opportunity. Understanding a little bit about research and how that works was really helpful. And so all of those things kind of just added up to make this a really good fit. Getting that business understanding, having those— the faculty members to go back to and ask questions. And then the ongoing relationships with different students that were in my, my MBA cohort mostly has been really rewarding. We had a lot of really good people that were in our group and we got quite close, I would say.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:13]: Now, thinking back to your graduate school experience and thinking about what you had to do to find success in that journey, and you think— and thinking about others that are thinking about graduate school for themselves, no matter if it's in the MBA or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Rebecca Pettengill [00:12:34]: Because my experience is heavily with the university in the beginning, I would say that if you are able to pursue the master's degree, whatever it might be, I think there's great benefit in having the bachelor's degree and the basis of information that provides you for life and for many different types of experiences. And then to be able to go on and add another layer to that at the master's level, I think it demonstrates a commitment to yourself as an individual and your willingness to continue to learn in life. And it's just so important, especially now as things are changing so fast in our world. And new discoveries and all of those things. It's important to have that extra learning, and I just highly recommend it. It just gives you so many more options and opportunities to pursue, especially when you're younger. Well, even when you're an old lady like me, it served me well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:41]: Well, Rebecca, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, for sharing your own journey in your graduate education, and I truly wish you all the best.

Rebecca Pettengill [00:13:50]: Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:51]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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What does it really take to chart a successful course through graduate school? That's the question at the heart of this week's episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, where Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Gillian Wilhelm, a second-year Physician Assistant student at the University of Michigan-Flint, to open up about her own journey—the doubts, the decisions, and the lessons learned along the way.

The episode kicks off with Dr. Christopher Lewis emphasizing that every grad school journey is unique, but that hearing from others can help you add tools to your "success toolbox." Gillian Wilhelm's story is no exception. She traces her decision to enter the physician assistant (PA) field back to her junior year at the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, in the middle of the COVID-19 pandemic. Like so many, the uncertainty of that period forced her to re-evaluate her goals. She weighed her options—medicine, nursing, or something else entirely—before discovering the PA career through a friend's recommendation. What resonated was the balance of hands-on patient care and work-life flexibility, ultimately fueling her passion.

Preparation, Gillian Wilhelm shares, was key—not just academically, but practically. She discusses the importance of researching programs, understanding prerequisites, and gaining patient care experience. Her pragmatic tip? Make sure you meet admissions criteria before sinking money into applications—a lesson learned through creating spreadsheets, taking extra courses, and shadowing various healthcare professionals.

Once in grad school, juggling personal and academic expectations became crucial. Gillian Wilhelm candidly discusses the reality of adjusting to a demanding program: learning how to study again, relying on the support of therapy and family, and experimenting with different study and self-care strategies until she found what worked for her. She's honest about imposter syndrome but stresses the power of simply "showing up for yourself" each day, whether or not you feel confident.

The episode also highlights the importance of community. Building relationships with classmates—often by just suggesting a walk to class—becomes a lifeline, as does forming connections with thoughtful faculty who genuinely want students to succeed. Gillian Wilhelm found meaning in serving as cohort president, helping bridge students and faculty concerns, reinforcing the theme that success often grows from collaboration and communication.

If you're considering graduate school, this episode is a must-listen. Through Gillian Wilhelm's authentic reflections, "Victors in Grad School" offers not just advice but genuine encouragement: do your homework, embrace your unique journey, build your community, and remember—it's about progress, not perfection.

Tune in to the full episode for inspiration and wisdom you can carry into your own academic adventure.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to sit down, to talk to you, to work with you as you are preparing to go on your own graduate school journey. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school has to go through a distinct and unique journey for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: But there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now that'll help you to prepare yourself for graduate school. That's why every week, I love being able to provide you with opportunities to learn, to grow, and to meet new people with different experiences that can share some of their own graduate school journey with you. That's why this podcast exists. It is here to help you to be able to listen to other people's experiences, to take in what works, set aside what doesn't work, and add some tools to your toolbox that'll help you to move forward in your own journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest. Jillian Wilhelm is with us. I'm really excited to have Jillian here with us today. Jillian is a second year graduate student in the physician Assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: And, and we're gonna be talking about the journey that she has gone through to be able to get to where she is today and that she's going through right now to be able to help you in your own graduate school journey. Jillian, thanks so much for being here today.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:01:41]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Well, it is my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. And I always love to start these conversations with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And what I'd love to do is go back. I wanna go back in time, back to that time back at University of Michigan. You were working on that bachelor's degree in neuroscience. And whether it was during your time at Ann Arbor or at some other point, there was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I'm going to continue on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: And you had that spark in your head that said, I want to be a physician assistant. Bring me back to that point. And what was going through your head.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:02:18]: That point for me came in my junior Year at U of M Ann Arbor, it was the middle of COVID I was living on campus because I was an ra. So at that time, I'm not sure how familiar you or anyone else listening was or is with the situation that we were in. But because of the super high number of cases, the university was instructed to kind of shut down and have all students who were able to return to their homes, return homes. And we had a mostly online experience then for the rest of that semester. But because I had the opportunity to be an ra, we still had students, athletes, international students who were there. So I was still living on campus. And being in the middle of the pandemic, we really didn't know what was going on. But I knew even still then when I went, when I started my bachelor's, I knew I wanted to do something in medicine, and I just wasn't fully sure what.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:03:12]: And then being in the middle of the pandemic, we didn't really know what was going to happen. We didn't know how long we were going to be in that situation for. And I was having some doubts of, well, do I want to go the medical school route? That's a lot of other schooling, a lot of research, and just volunteering. Shadowing opportunities are super limited. I could do nursing, but that would be an extra bachelor's degree. And I was already most of the way towards my neuroscience degree. And I actually had a really good friend reach out to me. She was also in college at the time.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:03:45]: We'd been friends since kindergarten. And she sent me this article about what a PA was, and I had no idea of what a PA was. I'd never heard of them before. And she was like, I found this career, and this seems, like, really great. And it seems like exactly what you and I want to do. And I read the article, and it was truly just like, it mentioned work, life, balance, it mentioned still all of the patient interaction I was looking for. And I just thought it was a really unique thing. It was a role that was really rooted in teamwork.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:04:19]: You got to be a collaborator with many different people, many different professions, whether outpatient or inpatient. And that was that, like, you mentioned, that kind of seed or that kind of spark. And I just. I kept looking more into the profession, and as the year progressed and as I looked closer to graduating, I started looking more into the role, and I realized, like, that's what I want to do after I graduate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:42]: Now, I know that after you graduated, you went, you got some experiences, some work experiences that allowed for you to prepare yourself for applying to physician assistant programs. Because for most PA programs you're going to need to see at least about 500 hours. Sometimes it's, it's much more than that. Sometimes it's right at the minimum. But, but you do have to have some hours of direct patient contact experience. And you did do that. You went out and you had some experiences for yourself to prepare yourself. And as you got into that year when you were applying to physician assistant programs, I'm sure that you were looking across many different types of schools and trying to identify, okay, what's the best fit for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But talk me through that process for yourself and what did you do to be able to not only prepare yourself for that academic, for that admission journey, but also how did you look and try to break down for yourself what were the programs that you were going to apply to and how did you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:05:50]: So I did a lot of research when I was looking at programs. I know statistically it's such a growing like profession and a growing field that the admissions journey is, can be very hard and very challenging just because it's a super high demand field and you have a lot of wonderful applicants who are all applying for that, those limited number of spots as you. But my journey was really just a lot of research. I knew I graduated from U of M at Ann Arbor in 2022 and then I applied during the, I think it was like the 2425 CYC because then with U of M Flint we started in January of 25. So I knew I was researching quite a bit with some classes have like, or some schools have term limits. So some of the classes I took for my degree back in like my sophomore year. So like 2019, 2020, there are limits with like how long they'll accept those classes versus like how soon you can take. So some places have five year limits, some places have 10.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:06:52]: So I had to do a lot of research to make sure that like the schools I was interested in I could actually like meet the admissions criteria for. Because applying to PA school is super expensive and I didn't want to put money towards application fees to a school that I knew like wouldn't accept my credits or my classes or things like that. So that was definitely something I had to spend a lot of time looking into. I had a big spreadsheet, a lot of different notes. My Google Drive got a lot of use, which was Great. And then I ended up as well, working as a physical therapy aide for about five months. And then I was a nursing, a certified nursing assistant for the majority of my patient care experience. So that was also something I knew that I wanted to be in a hospital and I wanted to really kind of immerse myself in that, like, healthcare environment because I had never been in an environment like that before, so I wanted to really get a feel.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:07:48]: And even though I knew I wanted to be a PA, I wanted to see like how PAs were in kind of that natural environment. So with working. And then I also was fortunate to shadow a couple different PAs. I shadowed one in the ER, I shadowed a cardiology PA and then as well as an interventional radiology PA. So I got to see how they interacted with patients and other healthcare professionals. And those all really solidified. That's what I wanted to do for a career and kept me going through the admissions process for sure. Because when you're sitting there staring at multiple essays, your big spreadsheet, and you're trying to just figure everything out and keep everything going, you kind of need that extra motivation.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:08:27]: You can just remember, like, I really saw how that PA worked with that patient and that was really key for me, is to remind myself like, that's where I want to be. So to make all of the paperwork and the research worth it. And then for U of M specifically I, or U of M Flint specifically, I really was interested in the fact that they have a 16 month didactic year. That was something that Most programs are 12 months didactic and then 12 months for clinicals. And as someone who I had been out of school for a couple years and while I still had a big science background, I mean, you, if you're not using all of that knowledge all day every day, sometimes it can be a little tricky to review back on and get back in that mindset of a student. And I thought the 16 month didactic would be a great opportunity for me to just have maybe a little more time to just like kind of flush out some topics. So that was definitely a draw as well. And then, I mean, I graduated from U of M Ann Arbor, so why not try and keep it in the U of M family, you know? But yeah, and then I went.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:09:27]: I was lucky enough to be selected for an interview and I really liked the professors. All of the students I spoke with on my interview day were all just had really positive things to say and I just thought their admissions process was truly holistic. I think that's something A lot of programs say, and I can't speak to other programs, but when I went for my interview and then as well as just like the supplemental essays that you. The prompts that U of M Flint asked about, those were things that I felt truly added on to my application. Because definitely some other programs, it's like they ask for essays that I kind of felt were. I was repeating myself with the other things I had had in my application. And U of M's prompts were just. It allowed me to show like, other aspects of my character and my ethics and kind of like my moral compass.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:10:18]: And I just thought that was really cool. And I made sure to let them know that too when they asked us, like for questions or feedback because it was just something else that I felt made me stand out and just like kind of showed how else or how I carry myself and who I am outside of just the same essays that you kind of send to everybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:36]: Now, for every person that's going to graduate school, there is a transition that you go through. Now you had a transition out of undergrad into the workforce. You worked for a little bit of time and then you made a transition to graduate school. And as you make those transitions, there's definitely a different bar when it comes to going from undergrad to grad. There's a different way that you're being educated and the expectations are also different. And every person has to be able to maneuver through that for themselves. Now, you found success in graduate school. Thus far, you've been able to maneuver through this process for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:12]: And as you think about the transition that you had going into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey thus far?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:11:27]: That's a great question. The first thing that came to mind, truthfully, was having a good relationship with my therapist, which obviously is not specifically academic related, but that was something I knew I wanted to continue. Just having another person to kind of like a third party to just like really hear me out and help me like process and work through the big, like, emotional changes and just amount of stress I was under with that transition. So he definitely helped me through quite a bit of that and helped me just process and make some good changes to help keep me mentally healthy as well as making sure I could get to class and get through class okay. So that was my first thought for sure for the big transitions. Otherwise, definitely relearning how to be a student. Because like you said, I'd been in the workforce for a few years, and I hadn't truly been, like, studying and getting back into that mindset and kind of unlearning older, not very helpful study habits. I think I had a unique undergrad experience just with being in the pandemic and having constant, like, academic changes of, like, if we could be in person, if we can't, if we're online.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:12:35]: So those were challenging to build, like, good study habits, at least for me. So then coming into grad school with having just even a greater amount of material, but having it come a lot faster and just being more unfamiliar with quite a bit of the material, that was definitely something where I had to really just try different study techniques and different study habits. And as I kind of went through, I realized what was working and what wasn't. So that was definitely something I had to continuously work on and realize, like, hey, I tried this last week. I don't think it worked for me. Or last week, last month, last unit, last body system. Let's try something else this time. And that's something I hear quite a bit from just, like, talking with my other classmates or even myself, looking back to where I was, like, starting the program, for some people, they really figure out what works for them and how to study and like that, and they stick with it.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:13:31]: And that's great for me. It definitely took some trial and error. And I, when asked about it, I truly don't feel like I really had my good study habits down until, like, last fall. It took me a couple semesters, and I'm happy I got to that point. But I'm also okay with the fact that I went through some trial and error, and now I know, like, what sticks and what helps. So that's definitely a big part of the transition, is relearning how to be a student, especially if you're not someone who just finished your undergrad and went right into the program, which is wonderful and advantageous if you have those good study habits. But it was just something I had to relearn and kind of go through. And then I think otherwise.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:14:09]: For the transition, to set myself up for success, I think it was still keeping in touch with my family. My family is, like, my biggest support system. Coming into the program, I really didn't know anybody. I didn't have any, like, former classmates. My friends who were also on their PA journey were going to different programs. So that was definitely. I leaned on my family quite a bit, and I still do, and I'm very thankful for their support and their Understanding and picking up the phone, even if it's late at night when I just need to talk about something. So that's, I appreciate that a great amount as well, more than I could probably ever say in words otherwise.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:14:46]: Setting up for success. You just have to keep showing up. I think that was the other thing I learned was even when I was super tired and frustrated of I still couldn't understand a topic or I didn't get through as many questions as I wanted to the night before. Still showing up as much as you can every day and just be willing to just keep showing up for yourself and just keep going. Okay, I know yesterday was hard, but maybe today will be a little better. And that's all you can really do is like just keep showing up for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:14]: Now talk to me a little bit about that connection and that balance that you had to find for yourself. Because you know you're in a program that is a high stress program. It is, there's a lot of expectations. You are on campus and it is a full time program. So it is an intense program. So talk to me about balance and how did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while in graduate school.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:15:38]: For me, I think living on campus definitely helped. I know that was something. When I was considering all the financial aspects of attending a grad school, I was really torn between like commuting or living on campus. And I ultimately kind of chose to live on campus just for the commute and then kind of saving myself a little time that way. So that definitely helped the balance of. I, if I stayed up a little late studying, I could sleep in and still make, get to class with plenty of time even with the weather because we, we love Michigan winters and they're unpredictability. But I think for balance it was, it was something it took me a while to figure out. U of M Flint's program starts in January.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:16:21]: So it's dark when you go to class, it's dark when you come home. The weather's not super great. So definitely that is just a little external factor. But I think overall for balance, it just kind of took me a while to figure out. It was also my first time like truly living alone and making sure to cook for myself. I hadn't really lived alone in that capacity since undergrad and making sure I was able to balance, making sure I could eat, I could eat okay. Making sure I could cook. I definitely meal prepping was super helpful for my balance of I would cook on the weekends and then have things to eat throughout the week and that definitely helped for me.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:16:59]: I could come home, have something ready to eat, and then continue to study or do whatever else I needed to. So that definitely helped. And I'm still continuing to do that as I've gone through grad school. That's helped a lot. And I, I think finding a schedule that works for you. Fridays for me were my cleaning days. I'm someone who thrives on routine. So even just outside of academics, like I liked having, like my Friday was my end of the week.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:17:24]: I would do my grocery shop thing and I would clean and it was like my reset for the week. And then I would go into that, I think definitely focusing more on the outside factors, but I'll get to the academics in a second. But I think otherwise too. I'm just very fortunate, like I mentioned earlier, to have the support of my family, of them knowing that I would wouldn't be able to attend every family party, every event, everything that I really want to. But understanding that this is a two and a two and a third year commitment and they know that it's the career I've been working towards my whole life. So really just thankful for having their support and knowing like, if I can't come home for this, then it's my parents and my sister driving out and going to breakfast on a later week when I don't have an exam. So I really appreciated their flexibility and their willingness to keep me involved as much as they could and make sure they really just emphasize that we know you're working for your career. You have your whole rest of your life to go to family birthday parties and things.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:18:26]: So having that support and understanding really helped me manage that balance and that kind of fear of just missing people and like missing those things when I'm stuck when I'm studying and then academic balance as well. I think something that took me a while to learn too was just understanding that sometimes things might take you longer to understand or to process. I definitely was someone who would see classmates, things just clicked for them or they really just got into their studying pattern right away and they were super successful and I was really happy for them, but then really frustrated that that wasn't happening for me. I felt like I was taking super long to understand the same concepts that they were or stuff just wasn't processing or clicking for me in the same way. And I think once I realized that that's okay and as long as I KE working at it, that definitely helped. I no longer found myself like comparing myself to other classmates. It was more like that's wonderful that they're getting it. Like, that's great, but let's just find a way that you can get it too.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:19:27]: And then definitely just making sure I was sleeping def. I know everyone says, like, oh, you don't really sleep in grad school, but you do have to. That definitely helps your academic performance, is making sure you do get sleep. And then also I'm someone. I learned that studying by myself is for the most part what I need. But sometimes, like studying with a friend or alongside a friend or a group of friends was helpful too, because then you have someone to tap on the shoulder and say, hey, do you get this? Can you explain this to me? And then maybe you can explain a concept to them. So sometimes my hangouts with my classmates would be, we all go to the library together for an evening and just sit at the same big table and study independently, but then have our little breaks where we can kind of chat quietly and compare topics or compare notes. So I feel like the process of balance is truly different for everyone.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:20:20]: If I had to kind of sum up my thoughts, I know I kind of went in a bunch of different directions. But I think that's to say that balance doesn't look the same for everyone. And that's okay. You just have to remember if it's working for you in the sense of you're accomplishing what you need to studying wise, while you're also like taking care of yourself physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, how, in whatever way speaks true for you, then I think that's the best way to figure out, like, if you are really balancing everything to make sure you're still a person throughout while also being like a grad student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:53]: Those are great points. Now also, every one of us go to graduate school, there's a point in time where you hit that wall, that proverbial wall where you say to yourself, am I made for this? Am I? Is this really? Am I going to be good at this? And it's that self doubt, it's that imposter syndrome that everyone faces. And it's hard to explain it and it's hard to help someone to understand it. But talk to me about that for yourself. Did you face it? What did you have to do to be able to handle it? And maybe you're still handling it and that's okay too, but how do you continue to handle it if that's the case too?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:21:31]: Yeah, I definitely had imposter syndrome and definitely at the beginning. And even so, sometimes, like, I was really feeling it before we went to clinicals of just like, I've spent 16 months learning all the textbook stuff. Like, how is that going to be in the. In the real world? Because it's just a whole different aspect of. You no longer have the textbook cases of conditions or diseases you have now, like, true people who aren't going to present in the same way. You learn everything. So definitely was feeling the imposter syndrome there, but at the start of grad school, I definitely was feeling it, like, very much so. I would come home from class and go, how am I going to make it through another two years of this? It's overwhelming.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:22:15]: You just have so many. You're trying to make friends, you're trying to get. Make sure you're getting everything and finding how to study. And I think working through that, I definitely leaned on my therapist. We talked a lot about that. And just ways to remind yourself you were chosen. This program saw something in you and said, she's great, or, they're great, he's great, she's wonderful, great applicant, but we want to help them become a pa because you can. I definitely.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:22:46]: I'm obviously not on the admissions committee, but I kept trying to remind myself, like, they. Jillian, they saw something in you from your application, from your letters of rec, from how you carried yourself in interviews. Like, they saw something in you that said, we want to work with her, we want to help her be a great pa. We want to teach her. And it was constantly, truly reminding myself of that. I had the privilege of being selected, and especially I got into school on my first try, and I know that is not very common to do. So that was also something to just remind myself of. Of like, you were chosen for this.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:23:21]: Like, you obviously want it, and you are. You keep showing up even though you feel that imposter syndrome. And that speaks volumes, like, more than you know. And I think that was also my motivation was I keep showing up and I don't have to be perfect, but if I keep showing up, then that's actively kind of fighting that imposter syndrome. Because it would be so much easier to just hide. And you obviously can't skip class, but it would be so much easier to hide and not go to school at all. But I kept having to remind myself of, you are here, you got here, you worked your butt off to get here. So use the opportunity you have to the fullest and to celebrate that and remind yourself like, you've got through the really hard part of getting in now.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:24:09]: Continue to do what you have been doing and work hard and show up. Even when you show up and you don't really believe in yourself that day, like still show up, ask your questions and make the most of the experience. Because I only plan on doing this once. So definitely something that if it goes away for you, then that's wonderful. But it continues to be something I work through and I just kind of keep giving myself those reminders of you're still here, you're still showing up. Even when you're scared or nervous or don't really know where to go your first day of clinicals, or don't really feel great after an exam, like, you still showed up and you still gave it your all and that's the best thing you can do is just show up for yourself every day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:50]: And earlier you talked about when you came into the program, you didn't know anyone. And for some people going to graduate school, that is the case. For others, they may know people going in. But for you, as you are transitioning and going through what you've gone through thus far to where you are right now, how did you go about building those relationships with faculty or peers? And were any of those relationships especially impactful? And if so, how were they impactful to you?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:25:17]: Yeah, I think for me, I ended up living on in our on campus housing for grad students, which is Riverfront. And I kind of got lucky and had some built in camaraderie and friendships with the other people or classmates in my cohort who also lived in Riverfront. That was something where we move in. Day is the Sunday before classes start on that Monday. So we're of course all kind of cramming in. There was a bunch of us that lived on the same floor and I remember sending like a group or a message in our group text of just like, does anybody want to walk together to class tomorrow morning? And we all walked to class together for our first day of grad school. And it was definitely just nice having those people. It's like you see them in class all day, but then you can come home.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:26:02]: And it was like having kind of built in study partners of it was just something nice where we could say like, oh, we have an empty classroom on the second floor, Riverfront, if you want to come and just study in a group, like feel free. And we just built some friendships based on that. I think it's easy to form friendships when you're going through something as challenging as grad school because you're all in it the same way. And it's definitely something challenging maybe for other people. To understand. So that was definitely helpful, is we all were in the same place all the time. We all knew what was going on, and. And we're all kind of helping each other through that, so that definitely helped.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:26:40]: And then as, like, my cohort, like, went through and continued onto the program, I think we all definitely just, like, got to know each other more and got to, like, figure out our personalities. And once we got over being completely scared, maybe that first month, like, we just started, like, letting our personalities shine through more, and I think that definitely helps. We have a lot of. A lot of, like, fun and creative personalities in our cohort. And I. It's just a cool mix of people. I definitely would say my best friend, probably in the program is Kate, and she is just wonderful. And I think that was just the combination of.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:27:15]: Part of it is we sit next to each other in class. So that was really cool just having someone to, like, chat with. But I don't know, I feel like we got to a point where we just, like, found ourselves hanging out more. And she's just someone I can talk to about anything. And I'm just really grateful to have met her. But truly, everyone in Riverfront, like, I'm, I think, the only student in my cohort who still lives there. We've all kind of spread out, but we still have our Riverfront group chat where we'll, like, chat and see how everyone's doing. So that's been really great just to kind of get to meet people that I probably would have never met otherwise or.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:27:47]: And then we're all going to be co workers in the future. So that's really neat. And then with faculty, I definitely think it's like, coming into grad school, you're like, oh, I have to impress my professors. Like, these are also going to be my co workers at some point in the future, which is really cool and also just kind of different to think about, because you think about, like, your professors, and they are a lot of times, like other experts in their field. And unless you're going into that field, it's just different to think about. But I think for me, I was just a person who asked a lot of questions. And I'm also someone who wears her emotions on her face. So if I wasn't getting a topic, it was pretty clear.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:28:27]: And I think that kind of helped my professors, too. I know one Professor Raymakers, she taught us more in our summer term. And she's also my academic advisor, so I would talk with her more. And she was someone where she would Be like, I really appreciate that you wear your emotions on your face, because I can see when you're not getting something. And then I suspect other people might not be getting it too. So she knows maybe I need to explain something else differently. And that's also really cool. I think, as well, for faculty.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:28:55]: To me, it was just really clear that all of the U of M Flint PA faculty want us to succeed like they do. They ask for so many surveys, and they really ask for our feedback as much as they can. And I think it's pretty clear that they take our feedback seriously because they just want the program to be the best it possibly can, and they want us to be the best, best PA students and then PAs that we can be. So that definitely came through in the interviews. And then just as a student moving through the program and getting to, like, work with all of our different staff and faculty, I just really think it shows that they care. And then for me as well, I. Within the PA program, we have the PA Student Society, or pass, and every cohort has their PASS officer, and we all vote. And the past officers help organize different events and work with faculty for different things.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:29:50]: And I was actually elected by my classmates to be the president of my cohort. So I've had the unique privilege to work with faculty and meetings and really be kind of a bridge between students and faculty. And it's been a really unique experience to kind of be a point person for students and have people feel comfortable coming to me and saying, this thing is happening and this is really challenging for us. Could you bring this up to the professors and see what we could do? And I've been able to do that and really be a voice for my classmates, and it's been really cool. So I think I've been. Or I've had the privilege of being able to be that person and then just get to know faculty more throughout that role. And it's just really cool. I think coming into grad school, I didn't really know what to expect with, like, that relationship with your professors, and I'm just really grateful that I have those relationships with them and my.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:30:44]: And the cohort does, too. I. I truly do just think it comes across as they care so much and they just want their students to be as successful as they possibly can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:52]: And I think that's really important because whether you're going through a physician assistant program, a medical school program, a law school program, walking into that classroom your first day, it is intimidating. And there will be times in which you will be Scared to speak up and to have your voice heard because of the fact that you don't feel that you have the knowledge to be able to impress the faculty. And one of the things that I would say to you is that you don't have to impress. You're there to learn. And all of your faculty know that. They don't expect you to be experts. They don't expect you to be where they are because they had to go through the same thing that you went through along the way. So it's their role to facilitate that learning and to help you to be able to get to the point of competence.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:42]: Competence in the knowledge that you need for the profession or for the academic area, but also the ability for you, to push you and to challenge you and to get you to a point where you are confident in your own abilities to be able to, whether it's in the medical field, to be that advocate it and to be that practitioner that is going to be able to help your, your patients or in some other area where you're working with a computer or you're working with other co workers. So just know that. Know that there is going to be a point in time where you're going to feel that way and that's perfectly fine. But also know that at by the end of the program you will be in a different place. And that's what Jillian is talking about, is you start one place, you'll end at another one. Now Jillian, as you think back to your own graduate school experience and you think of other people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going to become a physician assistant or something completely different, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Gillian Wilhelm [00:32:47]: This is such a good question. I think definitely do your research on the programs that you're applying to. Whether like you said, that's PA programs, whether that's for law, whether that's for engineering, do the research and ask the questions for of the admissions teams and try and find programs that match. Maybe your personality is not the best term, but match like who you are, what you want out of a graduate experience. Because if you're going to invest your time, your money and your education into a program and put that in their hands, definitely make sure it's a program that you are sure you would want to attend if an admissions offer was extended to you. That definitely I'm very grateful. I did a lot of research into to my PA programs and I'm grateful I chose to apply to U of M. Flint because I truly do think that their values, as well as their admissions process and speaking to other students, they just really reflected what I wanted out of my graduate program.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:33:46]: And I think that's definitely why I chose to apply here. And I have found success as I've gone through. It's not been without its challenges, but I definitely know that the program and I mesh well with like our expectations and what our values are. So that definitely was helpful. So I would say do your research 100% percent. Ask the questions if you have them. All the programs I worked with, their admissions teams were very kind and responding to emails and just answering my questions. So that was wonderful.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:34:14]: And I would say as well, if you're considering applying to grad school, remind yourself that it will be challenging at times, like no matter what you do, but just remember that you have the courage to just apply and put yourself out there. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to phrase it, but do it because you're sure you want it and do it only for yourself. Whether it's other people might have expectations for you, but make sure you do it because you want it, and that's what you can see yourself doing. Grad school can be a very challenging process and making sure that it's something you truly want, that's definitely helpful too. And I think that goes into your research. As you can see, maybe this program doesn't necessarily mesh with me or how I think or things. So that definitely, I think, ties back into that and I think just finding success sooner. Just understand too that once you get in or even, even just through the whole admissions process and the application process, just remind yourself it's impossible to compare yourself to other students.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:35:14]: Even if you have similar statistics or similar backgrounds in the education or the work that you did to get to that point of applying and working through that process. Comparing yourself, it's never going to help you. It's never really going to give you anything to compare yourself to besides like more nerves or more anxiety. Every applicant is so different. Even, even if you have similar stats, similar grades, similar gpa, everyone is so unique. So it's hard to. I would argue it's kind of impossible to compare yourself to applicants. And then once you're through and once you're in a program, it's hard to compare yourself to other students.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:35:54]: Everyone has to take the time to find their own journey and through what works, how best to study, how best to balance your work, your school and your life. Because. Because I know I don't have any children, but I know students with children. That's a whole other area that I could not compare myself to because their process of studying and just managing is so different than mine. So reminding yourself that everyone's journey is so vastly different and comparing yourself is just. While it might be easy to do, or your anxiety might be telling you, or your fear, your nerves, like, oh, just compare. Because it's something. It's like almost something to do.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:36:33]: Remind yourself that you are completely unique and independent of everyone else. Even if you're in the same program, no one is going to be the same. And just it might take you more time than others. Like it did with me with, like, finding that balance and finding what study techniques or things work for you, or just reminding that imposter and the imposter feeling inside you like, hey, it's okay. You can still be here, but you're not running the show. So just don't compare yourself to anyone else. Remind yourself you are you and you are wonderful and I know you're working hard. And don't be afraid to find your own journey through grad school.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:37:09]: It's okay that it doesn't look like everybody else's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:12]: Well, Jillian, I just want to say thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for being here, for the honesty and the openness because it's not always easy to go through graduate school. It's good to put that out there, and it's great to be able to allow for others to be able to learn and grow from your own experience. And I just want to say thank you. I know, I know you've still got a little bit of time left in the program, and that's great. And I'm excited to be able to see what happens next in this clinical part of your education that you're going through. But also as you get ready and you go off into the workforce where you end up, I'm excited about that as well. And I just want to say thank you again and I wish you all the best.

Gillian Wilhelm [00:37:50]: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity to be here and to share about my experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:37:55]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in your continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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Thinking about graduate school? Whether you're a seasoned professional considering a return to academia or a recent grad mapping out your next steps, the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast offers invaluable insights you won't want to miss.

Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Keith Kelley, Associate Dean and Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint's School of Management, for a candid conversation about the winding, often unexpected paths of graduate education. From his undergraduate days at the University of New Hampshire to his journey through master's and doctoral programs at Florida International University, Dr. Keith Kelley shares stories of setbacks, pivots, perseverance, and growth.

Embracing a Nonlinear Path

One of the episode's central themes is that the road to and through grad school is rarely straightforward. Dr. Keith Kelley openly discusses his early academic struggles, time spent working and traveling, and how these life experiences led him to find his true academic passions later on. He reminds listeners that it's okay if your journey isn't perfectly mapped out—sometimes, the best opportunities arise from unexpected detours.

Humility, Commitment, and Resilience

Returning to school after time in the workforce required Dr. Keith Kelley to humble himself and fully commit to being a student again. He emphasizes embracing lifelong learning, asking questions, and being open to growth. When setbacks happen—as they inevitably do—persistence and support networks are key. Dr. Keith Kelley candidly reflects on his own moments of doubt and the friends and mentors who helped him dust himself off and keep moving forward.

Balancing Life and Learning

Grad school isn't just about academic rigor—it's about balance. Dr. Keith Kelley offers practical advice on time management, scheduling, and leveraging campus resources, from study spaces to mental health services. He stresses the importance of making space for family, friends, and recovery, which ultimately helps mitigate burnout and enhances productivity.

The Power of Community and Networking

Perhaps the most enduring lesson is the value of building a strong network. The relationships you form with classmates, professors, and colleagues can lead to professional opportunities, mentorship, and vital support throughout your career and personal life.

If you're seeking real-world advice—and some entertaining stories—from someone who's walked the walk, be sure to listen to this episode. "Victors in Grad School" delivers the perspective, encouragement, and tools you need to succeed on your own grad school journey.

Tune in and start charting your path today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you show up, that you are here trying to prepare yourself for this journey that you're going on. I call it a journey because it is a journey. And for every person thinking about graduate school, it is a journey that you will be on from the very beginning as you're starting to look at programs, through the application process, as you matriculate and enter into the graduate program itself. And through the program, you're going to be learning things, you're going to be adjusting things, and you're going to be figuring things out as you go along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: This podcast was developed to help you just with that, to be able to provide you with some perspectives, some experiences, some things that you can think about to help you to find success, success in your graduate school journey sooner. That's why every week I love having different people with different experiences that can share their own journey with you. And today we've got another great guest. Dr. Keith Kelley is with us today. And Dr. Kelly is a professor of professor in the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's also the Associate Dean of the School of Management at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and to be able to have him share some of his own experiences and introduce him to you as well. Keith, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:01:41]: Absolutely. Thank you very much for having me. And I can't wait to share my experiences and hopefully people can relate to that and maybe learn a little something about my journey and similarities and, of course, lessons that I've learned along the way. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I know that you did your bachelor's degree at UNH, at UNH Peter Paul College of Business and Economics. You got a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Administration in International Affairs. And then you went went off, you went off, you got some experiences, you started using that bachelor's degree to do some different things out in the world. But at some point, at some point, you made a decision, you made a decision that you were not done, that you wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:24]: Well, let me go back just about the education part, which you were just referring to. So I actually got my degree from the Whittemore School of Business and Economics renamed. So the name that you gave there. These schools change in name over time. Unh and UNH is my home state. But that's not. What I'm trying. Trying to say here is that I actually started out at Bentley College, which is now a university in Waltham, Mass.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:02:45]: And probably a lot of people can relate to this is that I didn't do well when I started out. I went to a business school. I basically applied to three schools. I got into all of them. Bentley was my kind of second school, which is a good school, but I couldn't really afford the one that I really wanted to go to, which is Babson. And so when I started out there, I didn't really do particularly well. And after a few years I was like, well, wait a minute, let's pause on this, on my education. And I was kind of lucky in the sense that I took a moment to just kind of explore what was the purpose of me getting an education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:14]: And then I did a little introspection, a little traveling, and then I ended up in Costa Rica and Venezuela for quite some time. And that's how I came back to the degrees that you mentioned with business and international affairs. This is right about the time when Hugo Chavez had come to power in Venezuela. And I was experiencing, you know, this in real time, what can happen with countries. And so I came back and I was like, okay, well this is something that I'm interested in studying. And then I was fortunate to have support of my grandparents who were. Their alma mater was Unh. And so I got my education there, finished my degrees and.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:03:43]: And then I was working in a cubicle in a tech company in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. Going in at night and going in during the day and it was dark and coming out at night and it was dark. And I was like, is this what my life is going to be like? And at this point I had quite a bit of experience with Latin America. I'm going to South Florida, I'm going to Miami. And so I kind of pursued my career down there and. And then I ended up in working for a number of years like many people do before they go into grad school and, you know, getting to the point where maybe my career is stagnating a little bit, and ended up going back to grad school not for the purposes of just going to get my education, but education is a very non nonlinear process for some of us. And so I never thought that it was going to end up where I am today. But like any great story of grad school, it begins with a man or a woman.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:23]: So I had a girlfriend at the time who was interested in a program at my next alma mater, Florida International University, and she was going back to a music program there. And I said, well, it's time for me to go back to grad school. And they had a great international business program there. So I was like, let me go and join some of their international business programs. It was the best decision I ever made. And so I ended up doing my master's in international business there because there was a real passion with Latin America, and I was really excited about that. And I ended up basically meeting a whole bunch of different cultures and people, and my network there was just fantastic. So I would certainly say that that's one of the best experiences that I had that was unexpected about graduate school.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:04:59]: And then towards the end of that, this was right around 2007 and 2008, when I was going to grad school, one of the professors there was talking to me about going on and doing my doctorate. And I had never considered that before in my life. And we're heading into a little bit of a recession. I was like, well, maybe this is a sign that this is something that I want to do, because it's really passionate about learning and education and all of these things with business and affairs. And so I ended up down in Miami, nonlinear path, Coming out of the University of New Hampshire, but starting in another college, not doing well, and kind of transitioning myself into various different ways. And that's how I ended up in grad school. Great decision, great network of people. And that's how I got into pursuing my doctorate as well.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:05:35]: Just a lot of things happen by chance. So I would say that my. My opportunities presented themselves, for sure, but none of them were precisely planned out. So say that I could probably relate to a lot of people, but not necessarily 100% sure what they're going for in life. And we always have to pivot and make adjustments. And, you know, education has really paid off for me. It's been one of the best, best tools that I've had for kind of advancing my life and getting to where I am today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: You talked just a second ago about all these transitions. And every person that goes through graduate school has to go through a number of transitions. You go through a transition from for yourself, going and getting a bachelor's degree to transitioning out of education into the workforce. Figuring what that was like. Then as you move down to Miami and you figure out, I'm going to go back to school, then it's transitioning back into school, into now a graduate degree. And even going from a master's degree into a doctorate degree is a transition. As you look at and you think about the transitions that you went through from bachelor's to master's to doctorate degrees, what are some of the things that you had to do to be at the very beginning to be able to set yourself up for success? And what are some things that you had to do as you were going through the programs to maintain and continue that success to the very end?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:06:48]: Yeah, well, let's say it's especially at the, you know, going back to school after spending a number of years just working professionally, you have to make the adjustment of committing to school, committing to education, and humble yourself a little bit as well. So I think that I humbled myself a great deal going into the doctoral programs. But, you know, coming back to graduate school for my master's degree, you really have to commit to your education. And so I think that, as I mentioned, I was pursuing a little bit of an interest in some of the subject matter for international business, and I hadn't really fully committed to the university of the school, but once I started out, I realized, realized that it was really something I had a huge passion for and working with the students that I was in my cohort with, going back to school and making sure that I embraced the work with. With others and making sure that I fully committed to doing the work that I had for my instructors and. And really taking advantage of the fact that there's a great deal of opportunity for me to learn and to benefit from opportunities within the graduate school as well. And it's a different environment as, as many people realize. And so as I've transitioned into education now, I realize this.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:07:47]: A lot of people who are working professionals, their cup is pretty full with a professional experience. And so they come in, especially in the school of management, with our, you know, kind of business focus. They come in and they have a great deal of experience, they're leaders in their fields. And you have to humber yourself a little bit in the sense that you're kind of going back to school to learn how to do something a little bit differently, learn how to think critically and learn how to develop new pathways for doing things. And so it's tough sometimes when you've been out there and you're having a little bit of success to come back and Say, okay, well, I'm no longer the master, I'm the student. It's a really important lesson for you, both with the instructor and also with your colleagues, is they all have different ways of doing things. They work for different companies, they work for different organizations, and so they're bringing their expertise, and you really need to have an opportunity to listen to what they have to say and how they do things. Because I think that that's one of the best parts about education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:08:31]: You're always listening. You find things unexpectedly, like our journeys. We find things, little nuggets of information, little ways that you never thought about doing something. And then all of a sudden you're. You're onto something really spectacular. And so humbling yourself and going back to education, fully committing yourself is really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:47]: You know, it is really important and definitely something that you're going to have to do. As you said, humble yourself and know that you're going to potentially make some mistakes along the way. And you might fall, you might trip, but you have to dust yourself off and be resilient along the way as well. Talk to me about a moment, a moment in your doctorate or your master's degree where you ran up against that wall where you struggled and you had to dust yourself off and pick yourself back up. And how did you do that?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:09:15]: Some great examples of this, my colleagues in my doctoral program, in the doctoral program in particular, is an interesting one because really, it's a really different animal than even your master's degrees. And so going back into that area, I hadn't done a great deal with statistics, and I hadn't seen a lot of, you know, just basic classwork things. And I recall that just annotations, mathematical statistical annotations such as X bar, you know, what is, what is X bar? My friends laugh at me in this moment. What is X bar? And it just basically means the mean, the average of something, right? And I'm looking at the statistics and they, some of them are professional students and they don't really. They don't really recognize the fact that if you're not into this field for quite some time, even though you understand the principles of physics, you're not necessarily understanding some of the notations. And so, you know, in some of the, the quizzes, I'm confused by some of the. Just the basics of how we mark things down, what they represent, which is comical. And another instance in my doctoral program in particular, which is kind of surprising, writing a paper for an international business class.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:08]: And, you know, I thought that I was doing Particularly well in my paper. And I was just, just expanding on many different thoughts and chasing down all kinds of different ideas and jumping down every rabbit hole that I could find, which was not how you do quality research, which I came to find out. And this was really my first year and being in the doctoral program and really kind of an eye opening experience for me. It's a different type of writing, different style of writing, and a different commitment to precision and scientific process and research. And so the guy that gave me, I think, a B plus or something like that, which is not really a great grade for your doctoral studies, you know, basically, you know, kind of a wake up call for me. And he was the guy who ended up recruiting me into the program. So I think it was doubly disappointing for him and me and the mark of shame. And so I, you know, I humbled myself again.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:10:52]: I said, okay, Keith, what went wrong? Why didn't you do this? Well, and, and kind of learned from that lesson. And I've gone on to have a great deal of success in that, that area. My writing style has improved. I've never, never been shy about saying that I'm not a doctor in English, but you have to do a great deal of writing and, and work on your writing style even, and the idea of doing quality research and being prec. Things that you say and how you represent, Measure things. So I think those are two great experiences. And it's a, it's an arduous process going through. This is, it takes a lot of time.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:11:21]: And you know, a great story about that is that I, when I was being somewhat recruited into the doctoral program from the, the master's degree, the guy, you know, he recognized that I was pretty sharp guy. But you know, it's difficult to tell some of the things that are needed for success in your doctoral programs. But I remember him walking me into the office of the, the chair of the department and asking if I was married and, you know, talking about my lifestyle. And he's suggesting that I might not be married after I finished my doctoral. It's a, it's a large commitment and so very taxing on your life and, and a very unique experience. And so a lot of those moments will pop up along the way. And I think a lot of people don't realize that as part of their educational process is that you're going to have moments when you're down, you want to give up. And it's not just about your intelligence, it's not just about success any one particular semester.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:05]: It's you know, the journey is a long one. It often requires that you have help along the way. I had some great friends in all of my studies, both master doctoral level studies, great supporters. And so look for support along the way because I think that's a, you know, a vital aspect of this is that you will have your ups and downs. You have those moments where you feel like you've been pushed down the stairs. And if you have your family around you, you have your colleagues around you, and you have great professors and mentors and some of that is spended on your forming relationships with these people that will help you out. And it's the, the education is one element of it, but there's also a degree component of it too. So there's a lot of people that don't end up finishing their doctoral degree because they can't get through the entirety of the process of both their courses and their dissertation in same thing with a lot of degrees, you can get your education without having a degree.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:12:49]: And the degree is certainly worthwhile, I would say, in terms of the views of employers. So it's also probably a little bit of a black mark. If you started a program and you didn't finish it, what does that say about your employment prospects if you're looking for a job? So bear those things in mind is finishing and having the requisite support groups around you is really important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:06]: Talking about those supports. When you're going through graduate school, you have to balance a lot. You've got to wear a lot of hats. You've got to figure out what that balance is, whether you are working, you have a family, you have other responsibilities or commitments. Talk to me about how did you balance school, work, family, other responsibilities that you had while you were going through graduate school?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:13:27]: Boy, yeah, that's a tough one. You have to find your time. A lot of the people that we work with here, students in the University of Michigan Flint and School of Management, are working and family oriented. And you know, they have tough schedules. So I think a lot of that is just a bit of scheduling. So, you know, I think the things that we do with our students here is that we try to give them a routine, we try to give them predictable schedules. And as a student going through this experience, I think that's what you look for. You look for, when are the deadlines, when do I need to heavily commit myself, when is it going to be taxing on my family or take me away.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:13:58]: And I think that's true for just about anything that I do these days. Is That I just have to plan, you know, I have to see what's out there, look at the classes, when are things due? When is that going to really tax my schedule? And then as I'm doing right now, for instance, during the summertime, where things have lightened up a little bit, I'm like, well, I'm going to maximize my opportunities with my family. Family, or maximize my opportunities with my friends. And then I know when we come back to school, for instance, in the. In the fall, you know, things are going to ramp up and my time commitments are going to be much more heavy on the school and the focus that I have as an associate dean. The same thing was going through graduate school. You just have to look out ahead and say, okay, well, this is where I lose my family. You know, these are the moments where basically you guys are going to have to support me and know that I'm just going to go into my room or I'm going to go and do something, and you guys are going to have to find your own activities.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:14:43]: And maybe even some of that would be, you know, kind of an idea that you have too, is that right now I help with planning for my family and say, finding activities for them to do, knowing that I can't join them. And so that's a little bit of what I did then, too, is like, well, you guys can have fun. I'm not going to be there, but here's some fun for you to have. And. And I hope you guys enjoy yourselves and that you're not just, you know, waiting in another room for me. But I think that's a key element. Find out when things are due, plan your schedule around that, and try to maximize the opportunities that you do have time, because that's going to make the rest of the time a little bit easier as well, is that if you're not losing out on moments of your life when you have the. So if you have a moment, you have a day, you have a couple of days where you can do stuff with your family that you absolutely do, that you do that with your friends.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:15:21]: And, you know, mental health is a key element of this, too, as you learn as an adult and you go along, you know, building in times where you can recover so that you're more productive in the times when you're working heavily and focusing on your career potentially.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:34]: And every person at times can be frustrated, they can be challenged, they can go through a process of, I'm going to call it burnout, where they are pushing and pushing and pushing, and they are trying to achieve and they're achieving, but. But then they hit that, as I said earlier, that wall. How did you avoid burnout or recover from it if you ever hit that burnout phase in your own graduate school experience?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:15:56]: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of these moments where I envision myself in the future and I see myself days or weeks away and knowing that there's going to come a moment in time and for those of us that have gone through a great deal of education or done a lot of this accomplishments, you know that in the future there'll come a day where you'll just be able to wake up in the morning and you won't have anything to do. Pre plan, mind you, you could have things that you want to do. But I think visioning and envisioning these, these kind of future moments of times when you know it'll all be over for a brief moment in time where this too shall pass. This is a tough moment, but I think a lot of it has to do with just being open and honest and communicating with people that may be causing you pressure for burnout and saying. And that includes yourself taking moments and saying, okay, look, right Now I'm operating at 50 productivity and the best thing that I could possibly do is just stop for a couple of moments and the world will keep spinning. I think a lot of us believe that we're so central to everything that we do that we can't stop doing whatever it is that we're doing for a moment in time and recover. And that's not true. It's oftentimes not the case at all.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:16:55]: You can, you know, have people wait a few days and they'll be forgiving. And you know, this is something you just have to build into your schedule to say, okay, well I'm going to recover. And if you don't do that, then you will burn out. So I think that the lesson there is trying to avoid the burnout out. And when you get to that point where you're starting to feel it, and oftentimes it's indicated by mistakes, simple mistakes, then it's time to say, okay, well, I need a vacation. You talk with people about that. Look, I'm fatigued, I'm burning out. And just try to figure out what is the things that you absolutely need to do and to make some time for yourself and then figure out what it is that you, you like to do to recover.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:17:26]: So what is it that's going to make you recover? So I think those are key elements that help me along the way. And again, if you surround yourself with people that are familiar with the process and that are supportive, then that's going to help you out a great. Because when those times come and they will, they'll be ready to support you and they'll, they'll understand.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:43]: Every person has to identify and look on their own campus to find the things that will help them to be successful. Whether it's a faculty member, a specific office, a special place where they're studying, whatever it might be. Were there any campus resources or campus things that you had to rely on that and it could be organizations or resources or more that helped you in supporting your overall success?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:18:09]: Well, we, I think we had, when I was at Florida International University in grad school and both levels, I think we had a lot of spaces where we could collaborate. They were, you know, somewhat relaxed. And so I know that they had a Starbucks in the first floor of the library. So right as you walked in, you were, you know, walking past places where you could get caffeinated. And it was like an oasis in the middle of the university. And so, you know, we would go in there for quiet times and studying and we could find floors where we could study. And they had lots of resources versus books and databases and all kinds of things in there where, you know, I could, I could get help. And then from the perspective of what sport I had at Florida International when I was in the, in the College of Business, I think that was the other thing is that they provided a few opportunities for us to just.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:18:50]: We were hovering around the College of Business frequently interacting with professors and just, you know, we were just there. And whenever we needed a hand with something, we wanted to talk, the people were there. And so I would say if you provide spaces and find those spaces for you to make that work, that's a great opportunity for you to just have help when you need it. And again, you know, I keep coming back to this element of networks and friends. A lot of people that I went to school with became, you know, really good friends of mine. And so my safe space and my support group was also the people that I went to school. If I needed a hand with something, if I had a lot of friends, chances are somebody among those friends knew how to solve a problem that I didn't know how to solve or could help me. And just some cases, just the mental support of just working on a problem together.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:19:36]: If they're around and they're, you know, you, you nurture those relationships, they take of care of you as well. So you know, there was the library, of course. We have an excellent library at the University of Michigan, Flint. You know, it's beautiful, you know, and those are places that I would oftentimes go in because there are places where you could focus and study and find different levels and areas that you could find the things that you need. And they also are places that can help you find the precise resources that you need. I think a lot of us tread water sometimes looking for things and using those resources. The library, for instance, they know how to find things that you may not know are like easier ways to do things or better information and so on and so forth. So I think those are the key elements of success is I didn't end up using a lot of the counseling and psychological services.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:20:15]: I used my friends and my colleagues for that purposes, but they're there as well. So I would just say find your space, your college is your home. Find some sort of mentor that you're working with. You know, we all have mentors that we, we have with, with our faculty and find your network of friends and colleagues that you work well with and can support you. And they can also direct you to campus resources as well. We offer a ton of support here at the University of Michigan, Flint. I would think that those opportunities are out there for people to exploit and a lot of times they don't, but they should. So, you know, for my studies, I realized that that that is a huge time saving component of doing any of your work is leveraging the resources that universities provide.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:20:52]: We provide them for a reason. Right. So there's a reason why they're there. And sometimes we don't capitalize as much as we can. And certainly in my journeys, I would say I probably learned that lesson along the way. So I would encourage everybody to learn that quicker than I did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:04]: It definitely is a learning process and you have to kind of get those bumps and bruises along the way to be able to come out out unscathed in the end. But hopefully by listening and learning from people like you and the experience that you've had, you can avoid some of those as well.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:21:21]: Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:21]: Going through a program like a business program, there may have been opportunities to be able to get that real world experience you talked about, the opportunities to be able to connect with people from all over the place with lots of different backgrounds. And that's one of the benefits of going through graduate school. Talk to me about those interactions and how those helped you to become who you are, are today.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:21:42]: Yeah, I mean, I have some wonderful stories about that. So, you know, one of the first opportunities that I had with a kind of a internship consulting experience with my grad school is that a lot of people may not know this, but I went as part of a supply chain class and worked for what we called, I think at the time, the Drive 25 for Spirit Airlines. And so the airline formerly known as Spirit that has gone by the wayside, and this was back in 2007, 2008, and we did a project where we went from Miami, I think we flew out of the Fort Lauderdale airport up to Orlando, where they had a central hub, and we wanted to look for their operations. And so what Spirit Airlines does is they. They make their money, or they did. They make their money from basically keeping the planes in the air as fast as you possibly can. And so one of the first things that we noticed is that everything was being reimbursed for them at the company, but they wanted us to, I guess, pay for check on checked luggage. And so what you ended up seeing, and this was a very unique thing.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:22:36]: A lot of people that are looking at this probably don't have any work world other than paying for all of your luggage all over the place for the lower fare aircraft and airlines. And so when we did this, the first thing that we do is we don't. We had small bags. We're just hopping up to Orlando to do some consulting work on their operations. We'll just take them onto the airplane. And so as soon as you get into the terminal in the gate, you see some of the problem that's occurring. And this is basically, it takes them an hour to an hour and a half to get people on and off the airplane, which is not something which is good for economy carriers. And so this is consulting work where we're looking at how fast they load their gas.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:23:07]: Gas and check their safety and all kinds of stuff. But the thing that is readily apparent is they have a policy of basically charging for checked bags, which forces people to want to bring them onto the aircraft, which means that everybody's got. Every time I tell the story, it gets larger and larger that the people have got goats and chickens that they're bringing onto the. Onto the plane because they don't want to check any of the things they have. And they've just got so much stuff that it's taking forever. And this is like an. You know, I keep talking about this experience because, you know, you see the policies that Spirit put into place and other airlines have put into place and whether or not they worked and they didn't work, but we did consulting work for airlines and working tightly with my colleagues, working with catering experiences and understanding, like, you know, culture and. And later on in my doctoral studies, I did work for Service Employees International Union.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:23:50]: And, you know, we had financial crisis in some of the larger healthcare systems in Miami. And there's lots of benefits that come from that. Both you learning about how various operations work, but also getting experience and to working with colleagues and how they work and how they operate and learning how to basically improve the way that you interact with a lot of other people. So I think that's a key area that you should capitalize on whenever you're going to grad school, is take advantage of the opportunities and the connections that a lot of the universities have with organizations for real world learning experiences. The thing that I love about teaching in the graduate programs is all of the stories, every problem that comes up, especially in management, when we're talking in a classroom of what somebody themselves is going through from a personally challenging experience with their organization, their business, and then trying to solve that in a way that's readily translated into the class subject matter. So this is an excellent opportunity to get lots of perspectives with a lot of people going through similar challenges as you. And the only thing that you really, you know, make sure that you're aware of, you're not taking advantage of internships and things of that nature, as I mentioned, and take advantage of the opportunity to voice your concerns, voice your challenges with your organization, and speak in class, because these are bits of information that are worthy of conversation and solutions. So speak up.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:25:01]: And this will be an excellent opportunity for you to learn and also teach. So there's a lot of teaching that goes on. A lot of the teaching that goes on at the graduate level in particular comes from the students themselves and the classmates that you have. What do they do in this situation? What challenges are they having? And you get together and you form strong groups of solving challenges and problems. So internships are great. You can find some strange ones along the way. And you find yourself in a strange moment in history with Spirit Airlines, as I did. And I never thought at the time that I would have all these great stories about Spirit Airlines.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:25:27]: And there they were because of where I was in the world, their geographic location, some of their hubs, but also some of the policies that they put in place. And the aftermath of that. And they still never really got a hold of their operations, but some of their policies, they either had to stop covering the. The prices for checking their bags or they had to charge for bringing things on the plane. And we know which one they chose in that one. They chose for charging for your carry on bags so that people would limit the amount of stuff they brought onto the plane so they could basically bring in the aircraft and they could push the aircraft back and essentially it was 40 minutes in order to be profitable. So they actually did that fairly well. But they, they still had some issues with canceling their flights and a whole bunch of other stuff which is interesting to see.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:26:04]: I think that's an excellent part about being in grad school too, is that a lot of professionals are working at moments in time in history with their organizations that are interesting. I've gone through so many experiences here where, where people are dealing with wage compression and Covid and had personal issues with the Flint water crisis here. And you know, many years ago we've had all these challenges within organizations that we've gone through together and we've all talked about. And that's an excellent opportunity for you to kind of vet your experiences, share your experiences, get feedback and we all power through together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: Now, as you think back to your graduate school experiences, what's one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started?

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:26:40]: I would say going back and just building on the networking capital, taking more opportunities of that. I think that I had a great situation where things naturally evolved, where I kind of have a network of people that emerged out of the graduate programs and I seem seemingly was lucky. So in reflection, I would say I was probably more lucky in that regard that if I had gone back in time and, and somebody told me, well Keith, you really need to focus on your network. This is right about the time that Facebook is coming along and you know, LinkedIn, I don't know that that had been heard of when I went to my first graduate program. A lot of these things that we recognize now as being part of how we operate, building in good relationships and making sure that you nurture those relationships and you don't take them for granted. When you have opportunities to meet people from all, all over the organizational spectrum and really develop these relationships that carry on to the future. Now it doesn't really affect me too much in the sense that I've kind of gone into academia and most of my colleagues from this period of time outside of the doctoral program have gone into, you know, they developed themselves professionally and they're working for large real estate companies or they're doing agency work for soccer organizations or whatever it happens to be. But had I gone and developed some of These relationships a little bit better, you could capitalize on them from a number of different perspectives.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:27:52]: So I think that's the key, is that the education is good for the actual lessons that you have in your class. But especially at the graduate level, I would say that your opportunities to share experiences and to build up your network so that you can reach out to people in the future that may have jobs or that you may want to hire. In addition to that, just the overall reaching out for mentorship and mental support, I think that matters a great deal too, is that if you build up your network, there a lot of people that you can reach out to are people that you just talk about a problem and they don't have to solve it for you, but they've been there before and they can hear you. And so I think that also helps with avoiding burnout and mental fatigue. And as you go up, you know what? A lot of us go to graduate school because we're trying to rise up in organizations and take more responsibility. And a lot of us that get into these roles of more responsibility realize that having good colleagues and friends that you can just talk with every once in a while, building mentor relationships, you know, that can be cross mentor relationships will help you through some tough times, times. And the more people that you have like that, the better they can provide resources. But the most important resource of all is probably just their time and being able to listen and talk through a problem and sometimes just unwind about a problem from a professional perspective or from a friend perspective.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:29:01]: So I wish that I had nurtured some of my relationships a little bit better so I'd have more of those people. I was lucky. But if I had been more deliberate my efforts and more calculating, I probably could have a lot more friends across the spectrum of organizations all over the world that are those sorts of friends. Not. Not just the Facebook acquaintances or just somebody that I just went to school with and I casually know, but good friends, people that you talk with frequently.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:23]: And finally, as you look back at your graduate school experiences, what are some additional tips outside of what you've already said, that you might offer others considering graduate education, whether it's in business or some other area that would help them find success sooner.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:29:37]: Yeah. So I think that key element is trying to figure out what exactly are you going to school for and what is your end game. I feel like that's one thing that in my life, I haven't done as well. Well, the things that I've accomplished, I feel at some level have kind of Found me. And I know those things are kind of interlaced with your background and your, your work and your efforts and whatnot. But I would say making sure that you do your research, you find out about each program, what's it going to be like? You know, what are all the resources you indicated? There's all these resources that universities provide and programs provide, and there's multiple elements associated with going through a graduate program in terms of the time of the class and, you know, the cost of any program. That's a, that's another. When can I finish? How often are classes, classes offered? A lot of us want to go to school and we're not considering all the little elements associated with the value of education.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:30:23]: And value, as you mentioned earlier, is like, well, how do you balance going to school with your commitments to your family and your friends and other things? So some of those things are important as well. So the value that your education can provide is providing you with a, you know, kind of a structured system in which case you can plan for those opportunities to be with your family and take advantage of opportunities that you have. And that's kind of hidden balance value, scholarship. And I'm coming from a background of, you know, the school of management and a business person. So everything I look at is return on investment, you know, what do you want out of your education? Can this education provide that? And what are all the hidden costs associated with education? And some of that is just not being consistent with scheduling and not providing flexibility and not providing a lot of things that also people are balancing when they're going back to grad school in particular, you know, so it's not as though our undergraduates don't have oftentimes jobs or families they're committed to and other things, but in grad school, typically you're going to school school and you're already in the, the midst of a full career and a family and other things, then you need to really balance those things as well. So planning and investigating, you know, asking all kinds of questions, you know, ask more questions than you think you should. So if you go to an event and people are not asking questions, ask questions. If you go to an event and people are asking questions, ask questions.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:31:34]: And if you feel like you've already asked a question, we'll ask another one. And so don't be afraid to ask as many questions as you feel necessary to get the answer that you want, want about what your experience will be like. And you never really know, of course, but we're looking for some level of predictability in terms of our return on investment and you know, what sorts of resources are you going to get for supporting you along that journey and how does that fit with your life? And so just say those are things that I would definitely encourage people to do. Do a lot more planning than I did. I think in some of my educational journey, a lot more investigation, I think that pays off a great deal. So don't have analysis paralysis as they say. Don't wait forever in order to make your decision because there's always going to be challenges and always going to be some issues. Issue is associated with any degree or education or any other thing that you do in life.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:32:17]: That's imperfect. But do your due diligence beforehand and doing a proper investigation and figure out what suits you as best as you can and what you're trying to get at, what's your purpose in your education? So I think that that's a key element why exactly you're going back to school, what do you want? And then you know, you talk about those things with the people that can help you along the way. Because if you're trying to get a promotion at your current job, you're trying to switch your careers, most of the people that are supporting you are not calling up your boss or you know, they're not trying to out your plans, but they can help you and say, okay, well focus on these things that can get you where you want to be and everybody's here to help you. And that's the point of a lot of this education is we're here to help. And I guess I don't realize that sometimes when I went through my education is that you think it's just very one way street. But a lot of people are there to help you and interactions that you have with them is very beneficial.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:03]: Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your own journey and for helping others to be able to maneuver through their journey through what you've experienced. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Keith Kelley [00:33:14]: Thank you so much for having me and I wish everyone who is listening the best in their own educational journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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In the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Roy Shavers, an Academic Success Specialist at the University of Michigan-Flint, for an inspiring conversation about the transformational journey of graduate education. This episode is packed with relatable advice, honest reflections, and the kind of encouragement every current and prospective grad student needs to hear.

The Power of Mindset and Determination

A core theme throughout the episode is the importance of mindset. Roy Shavers speaks candidly about being a first-generation college student and not growing up seeing college degrees on the wall. Despite academic challenges in his early years and a less-than-stellar ACT score, he was determined not to give up. His athletic background taught him to view every obstacle as something to overcome, treating academics like a competition he was determined to win. This athlete mentality—balancing, persevering, and pushing through adversity—became his blueprint for success in and out of the classroom.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Imposter syndrome is real, as discussed by Dr. Christopher Lewis at 07:10. Roy Shavers admits to feeling intimidated, especially when surrounded by master's and doctoral students early in his grad school journey. His way of overcoming these feelings? Embracing the challenge, believing in himself, and leaning into the skills that made him successful as a student athlete—perseverance, focus, and the relentless pursuit of personal growth. His story is a valuable reminder that self-doubt is natural, but it can be beaten with the right mindset and support.

Mentorship, Balance, and Lifelong Learning

Another theme from Roy Shavers's journey is the value of mentorship and networking. He credits supportive professors and mentors who pushed him to believe in himself and helped him navigate graduate school transitions. He also encourages listeners to reach out, ask questions, and not hesitate to contact the authors of interesting articles for real-world insights and career networking (19:55).

Balancing school, work, and life responsibilities is tough, but, as Roy Shavers shares (20:36), drawing from past experiences and making time for self-organization can make the impossible possible.

Advice for Future Victors

If you're thinking about graduate school, Roy Shavers suggests finding a mentor, having patience, setting a plan, and staying resilient. Remember, everyone's path is different, and sometimes the best advice comes from those who've overcome the challenges themselves.

Tune in to this episode to hear Roy Shavers's full journey—including how persistence, the right support system, and a lifelong love of learning can make you a victor in grad school. Listen now and take your first step towards becoming the person you want to be!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, I love that you show up every week to be able to learn just a little bit more and to be able to push yourself and help yourself, to be able to work toward those goals that you've set for yourself that are helping you to be able to be the person you want to become. And that's all about you going to graduate school. This podcast is here to help you along this journey. I call it a journey because it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: Every individual that goes on to graduate school goes on a personal journey themselves that are helping them to. To be able to attain the goals that they've set and are pushing themselves forward. So every week, I love that you show up to be able to learn something just a little bit more, that are going to put some tools in your toolbox and help you to be able to do just that. Every week, I bring you different guests with different experiences, people that have gone to graduate school before you that can give you some hints, some tips, some things that they've learned along the way, whether good or maybe not so good, that they can help you to be able to maneuver through that journey just a little bit better. And today we got another great guest. Roy Shavers is with us, and Roy is an academic success specialist at the University of Michigan, Flint. I work with him closely in a number of different ways at the university, and he's had his own graduate school journey, and he's actually still working in a graduate school journey. We're going to be talking about that journey that he's been on and some of the things that he's learned along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Roy, thanks so much for being here today.

Roy Shavers [00:01:56]: Appreciate it. Glad to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:59]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. And, you know, I always start these conversations with an opportunity to kind of turn the clock back in time. And I want to go back because I know you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University, and as you were going through that experience for yourself, there was a point in time, there was an instance that made you say to yourself, I'm not done. I want to continue and I want to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point. And what was Going through your head.

Roy Shavers [00:02:28]: Well, I knew I was going to college, but I didn't grow up seeing degrees on the wall. I talk about this all the time to a lot of the people that I come close to. But my parents, I'm a first gen college student. My parents didn't graduate from a college. My mom went to cosmetology school. My dad was drove public transportation. So my big thing was I wanted to compete on the Division 1 level. Back then I thought I was a basketball player, but my calling was track and field.

Roy Shavers [00:03:01]: That's how I got to Eastern Michigan, was through track and field. I reassured it my first year because of grades. Grades and ACT score. My ACT score wasn't that strong. It was, it was pretty bad. But I didn't give up. I had this mentality that I knew that I was going to college. But like I said, I reassured my first year.

Roy Shavers [00:03:21]: That put me in a place where I gained a year back. So I graduated within the four years. And my academic advisor at the time was like, what are you going to do? Are you going to go get a second bachelor's or you going to go to grad school? And the young lady that I was dating at the time, I was telling her, I'm going to go get a second bachelor's. You know, like, I, I don't want no graduate degree. And she was telling me like, Roy, that wouldn't make sense. Challenge yourself, put something in front of you that you can, you know, look forward to. So I don't know, I sat back and I thought about it and I said, what's the coolest job that I didn't see somebody doing on a college campus? And they, I thought an academic advisor. I'm like, they talk to students not just about classes, but just about life.

Roy Shavers [00:04:06]: I can think back to the guy that was my advisor at the time. And I just talked recently talked to him about a couple of months ago. We talked about everything, current events and all of that stuff. And when she asked me what I wanted to do, my other advisor, I said, I'm going for student affairs, you know, higher education. So I pursued a degree in educational leadership with a student affairs focus. And originally my goal was to work with student athletes. I wanted to work with student athletes. But it started off good.

Roy Shavers [00:04:37]: But I got pulled into the student affairs, the higher education enrollment management part of higher education. So this is where I'm at. You know, I've been doing this for the last 10 years working on a college campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:53]: And you decided to go to Eastern Michigan University for your master's degree. And you. There are a number of different higher education programs that are out there. Bring me into your mindset of choosing a graduate program for yourself, especially for that first one. I know you've gone beyond that, and we'll talk about that. That too. But for the master's degree that you got, what made you decide that Eastern Michigan University was the right fit for you?

Roy Shavers [00:05:16]: Well, I was a student athlete. I went there for my undergrad, and I had to pick whether it's a second bachelor's because I graduated, or I had to pick a graduate degree program. And the advisors there at the time, they made their job seem so cool. So that's why I picked student affairs. Higher education, Educational leadership. Student affairs. That was my focus because I, you know, I wanted to do something that fun on the college campus. I thought being an advisor was fun or running some type of program would.

Roy Shavers [00:05:47]: Would, you know, I could see myself doing. So that's when I picked that program. Now, when I got into the program, I don't know if I'm going a little bit deep, but when I got actually into the program, I was, like, scared, because it wasn't just students that was working on a master's. It was students that was working on PhDs that I was. That I was in, you know, classes with. They had to take the same classes that I had to get to get to their goal, you know, which is earning a doctoral degree. So I don't know, being in all some of those classes, I was intimidated because it was like, can't write on this level. I can't.

Roy Shavers [00:06:24]: I never even saw myself even being in that space. But I knew, like I said, the mindset that I had once I got to college, oh, I was determined to not give up, and I was gonna pass. Everything that was put in in front of me, I was passing. So that was the mentality that I had. You know, when I started that program at. It was times that I wanted to give up. And it was professors that came into my life that wouldn't let me give up. Like, one of them was Dr.

Roy Shavers [00:06:50]: Zamani Gallagher, who always was positive with me, you know, always told me the reason I make. Kept it in my mind the goal. What's the end goal, Roy? And then Another lady was Dr. Tack. She had pushed me when it came to writing. So, I don't know, I built. They helped me build my confidence. When I first started that program, you

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:10]: know, that empowerment imposter syndrome is real, and it's something that every student I think is challenged by as they go through. And as a first generation graduate student, that's definitely something that you don't have other people to turn to outside of people that you meet on campus that might already have a graduate degree, like you said, that are pushing you in different ways. Talk to me about that imposter syndrome. What did you have to do to specifically push yourself past that and get to a point where you were confident in your own abilities to be able to be successful in that journey?

Roy Shavers [00:07:40]: I more so just believed in myself, but I, I always looked at every opportunity as is. I looked at it as sports. I don't know, I put that mindset in. It was like I'm competing with myself, but I'm competing with my peers. These people in these classes, you know, that I'm, I'm going to, you know, like I'm learning from them just like they learning from me. But I knew, like I said in the back of my mind, if I quit, I was letting myself down, I was letting my family down. So I don't know, I always had this mindset. Even now today, like it's like going after a doctoral degree.

Roy Shavers [00:08:12]: Nobody in my family, my immediate family, has a degree but me, Me and my oldest sister, we got different dads. But when I look at that, it's like that's what I'm pushing for, is to change the dynamic, change the mindset of the people that's in my family, to show them that education ain't just education. It's not just about learning from a, oh, I can do this for a job. It's about learning from a life standpoint. And that's what I don't know, I look at education is like how much I didn't learnt about just life skills and how I've applied it to my life. So I don't know, man, like I'm proud of myself for the most part, you know, is the work and the effort that I put into grinding and getting to where I want to be. I feel like I'm still not where I, where I really want to be at, but I'm pushing towards those goals. I don't know, this is something that I always told myself that going after a doctoral degree was Years ago my 20s, I'm 42, I just had a birthday, but I told myself that this in my 20s, like this is a goal, you know, I might not go for it right after the first Masters, but I'm pursuing and I don't know, this is just where I am and how Confident that I see myself.

Roy Shavers [00:09:19]: You know, once I start some, I always have to finish it. I'm never not going to finish what I put my mind to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:26]: And as you've been talking about the fact that you're going to be working on a doctorate degree very soon, you're, you're moving into that program. But the first step that you took was to get a specialist degree, an education specialist degree. And I guess bring me to that point. What made you decide that a specialist degree was what you wanted to do next and which is now leading you into the edd?

Roy Shavers [00:09:47]: I know working here we got perks and benefits of working on a college campus. I think some of us don't take advantage of the tuition reimbursement on a college campus. But I know that was one of the things in my mind was like, Roy, you don't work on three different campuses and you haven't taken advantage of the tuition reimbursement. But I don't know, when I started here, it was a goal was to go back to school, which was almost three years ago. I told myself that I wanted to go back to school, to work, to pursue a doctoral degree. When I got here, I talked to a couple of different colleagues and they talked about the specialist. It was centered on K through 12, K through 12 administration. And they were like, it's not fit for people that work in higher ed.

Roy Shavers [00:10:30]: And I used to always say, well, how isn't it? You know, we work with, we work in education, and if it's K through 12, kids that we do get are coming from they 12th grader, they still learning, you know, I don't know. And I challenged myself. I was like, I can really make this work because I'm working with these same kids, you know, like these same students, they're going to, at some point they're going to reach me if they plan on coming to college. So I just started tying that to, okay, what I do every day. You know, I talk to students, talk to students about their goals and I talk to students about life things. So I just started tying that to what I do and how I could see the transition from K12 to higher ed. And as far as in the middle being that middleman person. So that's how I tie my mindset to going after the specialist.

Roy Shavers [00:11:20]: And I plan to do that within the EDD because it's still centered around K12 education. One of my main focuses right now is, I mentioned it before, is being a first generation college student. I'm working on a first generation College student project where, you know, I'm doing some storytelling. So it's like putting people's stories out here, talking about the things that they do and the things that they learned and being able to share those stories with other first gen or other students to inspire them, you know, like, okay, you the first in your family, you know, that's great. But you know, somebody else can use those stories as an inspiration to help them reach their goal. So I don't know, I just love what I do and I love, I don't know, I love education. You know, we never stop learning as far as what we're doing. So that's why I'm pursuing that is that passion to never stop learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:10]: Every time that you make a transition into a new degree, there is a transition and you have to figure out for yourself what does it mean for me to be able to be successful in this learning environment. Every school is different, every degree is different, the expectations of faculty are different. And you found success. You got through the master's degree, you've gotten through your specialist degree. Now you're moving into a doctorate degree in education. As you think back to your first degree, your second degree, and you think back to those transitions themselves, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into those programs and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school experience?

Roy Shavers [00:12:52]: I'm an athlete. I had to put that mindset, I had to really put that mindset in my head is treat this as I'm running the race. I don't want to lose. You know, like, I feel like if I gave up, I lost. So being an athlete, a lot of people got negative things to say about being an athlete, but being an athlete taught me how to be a student. It taught me how to balance my life not just from an athletic standpoint, but being an a student athlete. So being a student first, you know, I had to go to class in order to be eligible. I had to do study hall, I had to work a part time job.

Roy Shavers [00:13:32]: So that mindset is what puts me where I am now. It's like, I want to win, I don't want to lose. So everything that I do it from away, I tie it to work, I tie it to my personal life. I treat it as being an athlete. I'm just trying to win, you know, like I'm, I'm running the race or I'm playing the game, I don't know. I, I joke with students and, and I tell them, I said, today how much you gonna hit, you know, how many points you gonna hit today in, in the game. This is your life. I ain't saying don't treat it like a game, but sometimes we got to play defense.

Roy Shavers [00:14:02]: We might have to block a couple shots, you know, from things that goes on in our life. So I treat it like that, like I try to look at my life in different aspects, like of the things that I've done. So when it comes to education, that's how I'm tying everything to. It is, is okay, I'm playing basketball today. Or you might get five points today and you might get five blocks. But don't fall out the game. You know what I mean? Like, falling out the game is being negative. You may be playing hard, but you looking at things in negative, negative aspect.

Roy Shavers [00:14:33]: And I, I don't, I try not to do that. So I don't know, I just look at everything from being a athlete. I got that athlete mindset where it's like, I want to win, you know, so that's just that mentality that I have is never giving up, you know,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:46]: I appreciate that because I think you do have to keep pushing and you have to not give up. I mean, there's going to be times when things get hard, things get challenging, and you have to push through. I love the mentality of the athlete because I think that while not every person is an athlet, the way to think like that as going into graduate school, definitely, if you can think like that and push yourself like you do as an athlete, you definitely are going to win in the, in the end. So I appreciate you sharing that. Now you mentioned the fact that like, you just finished your educational specialist degree and I can see the parallel specifically with your, with your master's degree. Talk to me about the Ed specialist degree because you said, you talked about the fact that you had to really push yourself and push your faculty to be able to allow for you to be able to find those connections. And I think there's going to be other students out there that may find a program that they feel is a very good fit, but they might get some pushback. And like you had to do, they have to advocate for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: Now that you've finished the ED specialist degree, while it was initially focused on K12 administration, talk to me about how you're utilizing the knowledge that you learned in that degree on a regular basis.

Roy Shavers [00:16:02]: Well, you could use some of the tools that they have, like the my school data. You may be working with a student that comes from a different School district that you may not have any information about. You can go through there and look up, okay, this was what this school was about. They may be high performing in English or they may have been low performing. And those are things like you doing your homework on helping the student. Like things that you can look at. Like other things that you can look at. Like I, it was things that I never even heard of because I never worked working.

Roy Shavers [00:16:34]: I've never stepped foot inside of K12 administration. So that my school data, one of the projects that I did in one class, I was trying to flip it to doing something within the higher ed realm. And the professor was like, no, I'm challenging you to use my school data. I want you to look up, pick a school district and I want you to do some research on the school district looking at the, my step data, you know, some of the, some of the testing things and, and the English levels and the math levels and where they are and compare and contrast and give me your recommendations. I want you to put your leadership hat on as if you were the, the superintendent of this school district. What would you do? What would you do to try to change the environment here, the learning environment. So it was stuff like that that kind of made me be like, dang, I never really looked at it from that angle. And then a lot of the things that they deal with on a daily bas.

Roy Shavers [00:17:33]: Working with young kids, you know, you working with K through 12 is not the higher ed piece. So one of the classes that I really liked was the law class. You know, the law class made you look at some things different because it's like you working with young, young adults, I, I call them young adults, but you're working with teenagers. So the things that they do, like we see all these different things that, that goes on in the school when it comes to cell phones, it comes to things that's happening in that realm. So I had to sit back and say, we just don't. We may make a decision in higher ed one way, but in the K12, you gotta kind of sit back. You can't just make a decision like that because it'll jeopardize a whole bunch of people. You know, it'll jeopardize a whole bunch of students, it jeopardize some of the staff and faculty.

Roy Shavers [00:18:20]: So it was like, you have to know the proper steps to take in order to make the right decisions in that area of education. And I don't know, I just, I enjoy learning some of that stuff because you wouldn't look at it from the K12, you wouldn't look at it in the higher ed side, things that you see on the K12 side. So I don't know. It was a good challenge. Even some of the things that they asked us to do, like article critiques. I did an article critique in one class and we had to present on it. And the professor didn't put me up to reaching out to the person that I did the article critique on. And I, I actually reached out to the person that wrote the article and had a whole conversation, kind of like how we doing on this zoom right now? And I asked them different questions and, and this was a part of my presentation.

Roy Shavers [00:19:08]: I taught myself how to use Adobe on Premiere Pro and I edited an actual video and that was my presentation. I was looking at doing things a little bit different than from the traditional realm where we use PowerPoint presentation. I said I'm gonna create a video and show how I engaged in conversation. And I think grad school is about networking too. So, you know, it gave me a chance to network with a educator that's out here that's doing research on something that, that I myself looking at down the road. So I don't know. Never be afraid if you listen into this podcast, never be afraid to reach out to somebody that you actually read in the article that's that wrote an article. You see something in the references where you didn't looked at something and you see another article.

Roy Shavers [00:19:55]: Reach out to the people if you got questions, you know about it. It's a part of networking, you know, that's part of learning too, you know, so I think they would be happy. The guy was happy to actually sit down and have a conversation with me. So I don't know. I've met another colle that works in higher ed that I know maybe one day I might meet in person at another conference. So I don't know. That's another piece of advice that I could give to somebody that's jumping into the grad school gang. Reach out to some of these people that you reading about, if they still

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:23]: alive in graduate school, can definitely be challenging, especially as you go through looking at balancing things and balancing life. How did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going through graduate school?

Roy Shavers [00:20:36]: Well, the first semester back it was a little rough because I hadn't been in school for a while and towards the end of the semester a lot of things kind of caught up with me. You have a couple of different papers and some assignments due all at the same time. It kind of brought Me back to being a student athlete where it's like, okay, you balancing multiple things and you capable of doing it. So sometimes I have to slow myself down because is that athlete in me, you know, you just always on the move, but I don't know, it brought back that athlete. Okay, you going to practice after you leave practice, what was you doing where you was going to study or you was going to work? I had to block things off the way that I did when I was 20 years old. You know, I had to bring that side of back to me. So I don't know, it was all balance. Once you learn that balance you good when it comes to that.

Roy Shavers [00:21:27]: But was it tough? Yes, it was tough. You putting a lot of energy into reading, writing, and then having your own personal life. So I don't know, I just had to find my balance when it comes to time management. I feel like a lot of people can give you a lot of advice on how to use your time, but you the only person that can give yourself advice on what are you actually doing. When we talk about procrastination, you know, you know, what you're supposed to be doing when it comes to actually being a student, preparing for the papers, preparing for the test. So I don't know, it just took me back to that, being an athlete. I always talk about being a student athlete. It took me back to that where you can balance multiple things.

Roy Shavers [00:22:09]: You've done it. So I don't know. I always go back to that. That's what's always in my mind.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: As you think back to your graduate school experience, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Roy Shavers [00:22:22]: I can't really say. I mean, everybody's experience is gonna be different. I don't know. What I wish I would have done was stuck with my mindset to go straight through, never stop. I had so much momentum on me when I was 24. I think I got my masters at 23, so 24 in my finishing this in my 20s. I wish I would have finished doctoral degree in my 20s, but you can't predict the future and how you do things with your life. I had a kid and all these different things that happened to me in my 20s, and I'm thankful for those things that happened to me.

Roy Shavers [00:22:56]: That was what mold me into the person that I am. It got me to kind of slow myself down and start finding myself. So with all the things that happened to me, I feel like it molded me. Even with the time frame stopping after the Masters and getting some work experience. You know, I think that was what one of the advisors recommended me to do, was get some work experience before actually jumping into, to another program so that you can apply some of the things that you learned in the program to what you actually doing for work. So I don't know, it took a. Some of the stuff that I learned over the course of the first Masters that was at Eastern, I was able to start applying that over, over the years from, you know, that first advisor job that I had and working with Trio Student Support Services, some of the student development theories that I like, like I could apply those to the things that I was doing within the program. So it was just about taking your time.

Roy Shavers [00:23:54]: Everything will level up to where it's supposed to be at when the time is right. So I always see my, like I said, I always, I've been telling myself like that I could see myself as a director, but right now is not the time. Like I'm still focused on what it is that I want and that's like I'm shooting towards the, you know, doctoral degree. So an opportunity for that to happen will happen at some point. But right now I just, from, from some of the people that I talk to, the mentors that I talk to, they, they tell me, just do the work now, Roy, and it'll show, you know, so that's my main focus right now, is doing the work and letting my work show what I'm capable of for the next opportunity that's put in, in front of me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:37]: And finally, as you think back to your different graduate degrees and the experiences you've had in graduate school, what are some tips other than what you've said already that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Roy Shavers [00:24:51]: You do got to have some type of sense of what it is that you want. It might not happen right right away. If you pursuing a master's in something, at least have some type of plan put in place. You may not have a mentor, but I definitely say get a mentor. The mentor is the number one thing because they can help you along the way to map out things that you can't see for yourself. One of my mentors always told me to. I left Eastern from my first advisor job. He told me that I needed to stay put at the next school that I was at for at least five years because you don't want to be considered a jumper.

Roy Shavers [00:25:26]: Like jumping from school to school, it doesn't look good from a resume standpoint. So that's what I did. I stayed put to show some type of commitment, you know, like I'm committed to actually my job and the work that I do. So it's just about being patient. You know, I think the biggest thing is finding patience within yourself and having a plan for what it is that you want to do. So definitely getting a mentor, somebody that you can talk to, whether it's an advisor, whether it's a supervisor, somebody that can help you along the way to see your vision all the way out. So like a coach, Everybody needs a coach. So that's the biggest thing that I take for grad school.

Roy Shavers [00:26:06]: You know, you may have an idea, or you may say you want to be a social worker, but it may be something else. You may be a counselor. You know, you may take the counselor route instead of going to social work work route. That's what a mentor and a coach is there to help you along the ways to. To guide you down that pathway. So I say that if you thinking about grad school and you're not all the way, sure, ask questions. Get out here and ask questions to somebody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:31]: Well, Roy, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not over. You've got a whole nother degree coming, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that plays out and how that helps to mold you and shape you in your next direction. But I really want to say thank you for your time today, for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.

Roy Shavers [00:26:51]: I appreciate it. No problem. And hopefully we can talk after I finish the doctorate. We can have this conversation again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:58]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me@FlintGrad OfficeMflint. Eduardo.

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Are you considering graduate school but worried about the challenges ahead? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast is a must-listen, offering valuable perspectives for current and aspiring grad students. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, this episode features a candid conversation with Theo Ellis, a double graduate degree holder and dynamic entrepreneur.

Embracing the Graduate School Journey

The episode opens with Dr. Christopher Lewis emphasizing the idea of graduate school as a journey, where everyone—no matter their starting point—can find ways to prepare and succeed. Theo Ellis embodies this ethos, sharing how his love for learning and a pivotal scholarship motivated him to pursue his first master's degree. His second graduate degree was an organic decision, sparked by an advisor's encouragement and the realization he was only a few courses away.

The Reality of Transition and Balance

Transitioning from undergrad to graduate studies was a significant leap for Theo Ellis. He discusses how the depth and quality of work expected at the graduate level required not only discipline but a true understanding of the material. Theo Ellis also gets real about balancing family, work, and academic obligations. His secret? Rigorous organization, staying on top of the syllabus, and never letting deadlines overwhelm him.

The Value of Relationships

A major theme is the importance of building relationships. Theo Ellis credits mentors like Dr. Witt and his peers for guidance, support, and lasting friendship. These connections not only enriched his grad school experience but continue to influence his personal and professional life.

From Classroom to Business Impact

What sets Theo Ellis apart is how he applies classroom knowledge directly to his businesses. He explains how lessons in entrepreneurship, finance, and marketing have empowered him to innovate and expand within the music industry and beyond. The episode is packed with practical examples of using graduate education in real life.

Mindset Shifts and Advice for Aspiring Grads

Reflecting back, Theo Ellis wishes he'd started his academic journey sooner and underscores the mindset shifts essential for graduate success—higher standards, deeper understanding, and unwavering discipline. His advice is clear: don't procrastinate, stay organized, and make the most of your resources.

Listen and Be Inspired

Whether you're thinking about graduate school or already on the path, listen to this inspiring episode of Victors in Grad School. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Theo Ellis deliver both motivation and actionable strategies to help you find success in your own journey.

Ready for more? Listen to the full episode and embark on your own path to becoming a victor in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love that you come back every week to be able to work on achieving the goals that you've set for yourself. I call this a journey because you are on a journey. Every person that is going and thinking about graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey. No matter if you are at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about it, or if you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: No matter where you are in this path, there are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself even better and to help you to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why this show exists. This podcast was created to be able to help you to find success in in that graduate school journey sooner. And we do that through giving you opportunities to learn from other people every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think about graduate school in a little bit different way through the experiences that they had through their graduate school experience. And today we got another great guest. Theo Ellis is with us today. And Theo is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: He has two graduate degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint, and a really excited to have him here to share some of his own journey with you. Theo, thanks so much for being here today.

Theo Ellis [00:01:37]: Thank you for having me, Dr. Luce.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here and I want to turn the clock back in time. So we're going to start by turning the clock back. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, you said, yes, I've got to keep going. I've got to keep moving forward. I know I need more education to be able to do what I want to do. Bring me back to that point. And what was going through your head?

Theo Ellis [00:02:03]: Well, for me, it was very organic, actually, because through the process of obtaining my undergrad degree, you know, I was genuinely enjoying learning and the growth that I was experiencing in that. And so at one point, I learned about the Maize and Blue Scholar Award and I set that as my goal. Not just to have that accolade, but also because that it does come with the additional funding to be used towards the higher education and the master's degree. And so that's kind of how I started my journey towards the first master's degree. The second one I originally did not have any intention of getting. Honestly, I really didn't until I believe I was talking with an advisor. And the advisor said, well, you know, you only need to take, I think it was six more classes or something like this, and then you'll have the second one. And I said, well, it's only six more classes.

Theo Ellis [00:02:50]: Why not? So that's how that one came.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:52]: Completely understand. And sometimes things organically show up like that for you and there's opportunities that are set in front of you. Usually I ask, how did you choose the University of Michigan Flint for your graduate degrees? But you kind of answered that in the sense that it was organic. And with the additional funding that you got, that seems to have made sense for you to be able to continue on with the same university and to continue on toward getting that first and then that second graduate degree. In every experience, when you transition into a new degree, there's some transition that happens. Going from undergrad to grad. You are going to be taught in different ways, you're going to be challenged in different ways. There's different expectations that faculty have of you as a student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Talk to me about that transition for you and going from undergrad into your graduate work. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into the program to be successful, and what did you have to do as you were going through the program to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey?

Theo Ellis [00:03:55]: Well, the biggest transition that I noticed right off the get go was not just the level and quality of work that's expected of you, but also the depth of it. You know, you go from writing papers that are maybe five pages, something like this, to now we need 10, 12. A lot more sources are required. Again, just a lot more depth and level of understanding of the material is required of you. And that challenge was fun to me. I embraced it. Right. I didn't run from it.

Theo Ellis [00:04:22]: I didn't know, oh my goodness, what am I going to do here? Okay, this is what we got to do today. Let's go do that. And so I really enjoyed the journey itself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:29]: You know, one of the things that I wanted to delve a little bit into with you is balance, because you're a busy guy. And for anyone that has never seen Theo's LinkedIn page, when you look at Theo's LinkedIn page, you have to ask the question, how the heck are you doing everything that you're doing? Because he is involved with about five different businesses and leading the charge on all of these businesses. And he was going to school while he was doing that as well. So I guess I want to know, and I want to, I want to get some of your take on balance, how did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities while going to graduate school?

Theo Ellis [00:05:08]: It was grueling at times. I'm not going to pretend like it wasn't. There were times it was very challenging. However, the biggest key to all of it is just organization, staying on top. First day of class, you're getting your syllabus. So you already know the plan. You already know, okay, this is due on this day. This is what I got to do this day.

Theo Ellis [00:05:24]: And just approaching it a little bit at a time, not letting it all overwhelming you or waiting until the last minute and then everything's due at once. That's when you run into problems. As long as you stick to your syllabus, if you can stay ahead of it, you know, read ahead in a chapter or two when you get some free time or whatnot. But just staying disciplined and organized was the biggest factor to my success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:44]: One of the other things that I'm always interested in is that as you go through graduate school, there's people that you can relate to, there's people that you can connect with, and there's relationships that you're going to be building along the way. Talk to me about the relationships that you were able to build with faculty, with peers, and how were they impactful in the graduate school journey that you went on?

Theo Ellis [00:06:06]: First and foremost, one of the first relationships for me that was formed was with faculty. Dr. Witt, he very quickly became mentor for me, helped guide me, and, you know, in the beginning with my undergrad, I wasn't sure if I was going to go on to pursue higher education. At one time, I had even considered attending law school. After this, and through various conversations with Dr. Wipp, he really helped guide the path that I was on and also became a great friend in the process. And then as I continued on higher degrees, he was still there to advise and help. And he helped oversee my research projects.

Theo Ellis [00:06:39]: And he just, anytime I needed something or just someone to talk to or bounce ideas around, he was always there. So very thankful to Dr. Witt. Then on a peer basis, I mean, I have peers in mind that we are still connected to this day. We hang out in the summertime and barbecue and just genuine friendships. There through people that were pursuing their master's degrees as well and had a passion for business as well. And so I'm grateful for those because, you know, they're all wonderful people and I would not have met none of them had I not gone through this process. What I can tell you is this.

Theo Ellis [00:07:08]: When I first started thinking about it, remember I'm a non traditional student. And so coming back to school after many years, when I first started to even consider this for, even for the undergrad, do I really want to go back to school at this age, you know, 40 some, whatever. Do I really, you know, can I, you know, do I, do I have the capacity? I don't know. You know, let's find out. And then do I want to take on the debt? Do I want to take on this debt? Do I really need another bill right now? In the end, what made my decision was this, that's okay. If I were to spend, go get a brand new truck or something, 40, 50,000, maybe $60,000 truck, I would have no problem going, getting that new vehicle, signing the papers and having a new vehicle. So what's the difference if I spend that 40, 50,000 on a degree, something that's going to better me, something that I'll have for the rest of my life, the truck's eventually going to die, this degree won't. And so I said, you know what? If I can take on debt for a new vehicle, I can take on debt to better myself.

Theo Ellis [00:07:58]: And that was what made my decision. And then in the end it worked out that, you know, I was very fortunate that I had minimal debt because of the way that I performed and the opportunities that were presented and the way of merit scholarships or other grants, etc. But I still have debt and going into the master's program, still have debt. You know, I pay my student loans now, but it is all worth it. I don't regret any of it. I'm very grateful for the opportunities that I had while I was at U of M Flint and also the education that I gained. I went there seeking a better understanding of business. I had already been running my business prior to that, and I said, I want to level up on my business acumen.

Theo Ellis [00:08:34]: I gained that and then some. So it worked out for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:37]: I guess one of the questions that I have is, as you have gone through both of these programs, you already mentioned that you run your own business. And I'm going to say businesses, because you do have a number of businesses that you are running. Talk to me about how you are taking what you learned in both of your graduate degrees and using that on a daily basis.

Theo Ellis [00:08:56]: Well, currently I'm working on expanding my business. You know, the core of my business that like that you see on LinkedIn and that ProSound Media, what we do is it's in the music industry. So we help artists companies license their music for tv, film and commercials, distribute their music globally. So you know, get it on Spotify, Apple Music for them. We handle their music publishing which is, you know, on the, on the copyright side again, that's all part of the licensing. So a lot of the administrative stuff, the behind the scenes stuff is what we help artists and labels with. Recently I've been expanding my business with the boom in AI. How can I utilize this for my company? And so what I've done is developed a couple products that artists and businesses can use.

Theo Ellis [00:09:37]: One of them is called Orbit. And what Orbit does is it basically gets eliminates busy work. You know, all of us have busy work. You go away for the weekend, you come to work Monday morning, you may spend two hours cleaning out your email before you actually start to do some work, right? That's busy work. And so I developed AI that'll clean your email out for you and basically bring the important things to the forefront. Kind of like having your own personal assistant there, right? So through the process of developing these different AI platforms that I've been working on, I we got to figure out what's going to be the mvp. You know, that's something I learned at U of M Flint. You know, the entrepreneurial side of it, where's our break even? What's it going to cost to run this thing? You know, at the end of the day, what's going to be the net present value, right? These are the things that I learned at U of M Flint.

Theo Ellis [00:10:21]: These are things that I did not know prior to coming there. And I use them all on a daily basis as I'm learning and figuring out because I have three or four different ones that I'm working on right now. Okay, which one are we going to go with? Which markets are we going to launch them in? Understanding the marketing side of it and the importance of that, right? Because you can have a great idea, but if you're targeting the wrong audience, the not going to matter. And then there is taking all of the knowledge that I learned in business school, coupling that, you know, different frameworks that I've learned, you know, whether it's Porter's forces or the Harvard, the business canvas model, taking those things, applying it to the knowledge I have with the music industry. Okay. And how can I take both of these things and merge them together to help people in the music industry? And what I came up with was the business of music, which literally applies strategy, core business principles, and mixes in the things you need to know, the knowledge you need to know of the music industry because it is its own niche industry and it has its own nuances that are very particular to it that don't exist in other industries. So we came up with the book, and none of that would have been possible, or at least maybe not to the scale that it is if not for the education that I gained at U of M. Flynn, talk to me

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:28]: about a defining moment for you as you were going through that graduate education that might have been, let's say, the turning point, or that defining moment, as I'd mentioned, that shape your academic or professional journey.

Theo Ellis [00:11:40]: That's a very difficult question for me to answer. And the reason being is because I went not not only full time, but full year round. I didn't do fall, winter. I did fall, winter, spring, summer, fall, winter, spring, summer. I did that for four years straight. And at the end of four years, I had three degrees. So it all just happened so quickly. And then at the end, we're done.

Theo Ellis [00:12:00]: That's it. I mean, I remember when I first, you know, graduated for the last time and I. And I was. I didn't know what to do. I was so used to having an assignment due or something that, you know, what do I do now? I got free time, you know, so. So it's very difficult for me to have a defining moment because I was just so in it and just focused on achieving the goals and getting it done right, that I really didn't even have time to sit back and absorb it until I was finally done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:22]: What's something that you wish that someone had told you before starting graduate school

Theo Ellis [00:12:26]: to do it sooner? I had been contemplating going back to school for a few years, you know, and you know, for me it was really Covid was what the turning point was. I said, you know what, it's now or never. And so 21 was the first year that I started back with my undergrad, but definitely wish that somebody would have encouraged me to get involved sooner and get this done sooner. I think I'd have been so much better for it and probably further ahead than I am now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:48]: And I guess as you think about your graduate school experience and you think about the things that you learned in that graduate school experience, what would you say are some mindset shifts that you had to make for yourself to, to find success in graduate school.

Theo Ellis [00:13:04]: The quality of work that's expected. You can sometimes I guess get by if you want in undergrad with how you frame your answers. But that's not going to fly at the graduate level. Like you really have to understand the work. And so that was a mind shift for me, I think that's probably the biggest one is just understanding that the level and quality of work that is expected of you daily, day in and day out. And I mean one of my last classes I took, we had to turn in like 27 page paper. That's a lot, you know, it's a lot. And for it to be cohesive because you can start first three pages, you're writing one thing and you can kind of drift, right? So to keep it all cohesive and make sure that from start to finish you're on that one topic, I mean that's a challenge.

Theo Ellis [00:13:45]: But again, I enjoyed every bit of it and I'm grateful for all my teachers that I had there. Dr. Greg Lawrence, I had the privilege of participating in the study abroad trip to Japan. That was, that was a formative experience. That was life changing, that was amazing. And seeing how they do business over there, learned some good things there as well as just the culture of Japan and for you yourself even, you know, you were instrumental in helping guide me when we launched the Graduate Students of Color Student club. You know, that which did not exist previously and you were very instrumental in that and so I thank you for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: Now as you look back at your own graduate school experience and you think about the degrees that you got if you were to do it all over again, would you choose the same programs or path and why or why not?

Theo Ellis [00:14:25]: I would change one thing potentially anyway. Potentially change it. I don't know that I 100% would for sure. Business MBA, that's staying right? Like that's not going anywhere. I just have a passion for business, entrepreneurship, I love it. And so that would never change. Potentially for my mslod, maybe instead of doing the joint MBA mslod, I would do the MBA and computer science one just because of where we're at in this day and age with technology and AI and all this, that definitely would be beneficial. I'm writing these AI programs with the limited Python knowledge that I have.

Theo Ellis [00:14:56]: That's been for the most part self taught. But had I had some classes in that, probably have this app done a lot sooner so. But you know, again it's all part of the journey. And you know, that's one of the things also that going to University of Michigan Flint taught me was that really there's not anything that I can't teach myself because a lot of this stuff is online. And so you do have the interaction with the teachers and this and that, but a lot of it you're having to read the book and kind of self taught here and so that doing that and understanding that, yeah, you can do that and actually retain it and understand it. And if you have questions, the teachers are there, etc. But when I got done, I said, man, there's not nothing I can't teach myself. So I'm grateful for that as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:34]: And then finally, as you think back again on your graduate education and you think of other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for business or some other completely different area, what are some tips that you might others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Theo Ellis [00:15:50]: Well, the first thing is don't put it up, don't think about it, don't waste time. Secondly, stay disciplined, stay focused. Most importantly, stay organized. You know that discipline and that that organization is what helps keep the success, you know, following the syllabus. You know, pay attention to the syllabus. It's not just a piece of paper to ignore. It literally has everything you need to know contained within it. And if you just follow that, you'll get the perfect grade.

Theo Ellis [00:16:12]: Every time it's going to tell you. It gives you the syllabus, in my opinion, gives you the cheat code. Here's what you need to do, Just follow it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:18]: Well, Theo, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best as you are working through the app and all of the other things that you're working on to be able to move forward your businesses and I truly wish you all the best.

Theo Ellis [00:16:33]: Thank you sir. It's been my pleasure. And thank you again for having me. I genuinely appreciate, appreciate the opportunity.

Speaker D [00:16:37]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

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Are you contemplating graduate school, currently in the midst of your program, or simply curious about what it takes to thrive in this next phase of education? The Victors in Grad School podcast delivers personal stories, hard-won lessons, and actionable advice from students, alumni, and experts. In the latest episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Micah Helzerman, a master's student in Artificial Intelligence at the University of Michigan-Flint, to discuss the unique journey that is graduate school.

Embracing the Graduate School Journey A major theme in this episode is the concept of graduate education as a multifaceted journey. As Dr. Christopher Lewis reminds listeners, grad school is not just about applying and getting accepted—it's about ongoing growth, self-discovery, and working toward long-term goals. Micah Helzerman shares how his decision to continue beyond his undergraduate degree was fueled both by inspiration from research opportunities and a desire to confront the challenging job market.

Self-Motivation and Building Structure Transitioning from undergrad to grad school is a leap in both responsibility and independence. Micah Helzerman reveals how graduate coursework is more self-driven and project-based, requiring students to take control of their schedules and motivation. Developing a structured routine, utilizing tools like calendars, and consistently reflecting on goals become keys to success. If you're wondering how to boost your own productivity and avoid burnout, Micah Helzerman's honest insights about finding balance between work, study, and personal life are a must-listen.

Research, Relevance, and Future Goals Another standout aspect of the episode is the discussion of research. Micah Helzerman's current work focuses on how AI large language models interact with math problems, exploring their impact on education and student learning. He emphasizes the importance of engaging with current research early and often—a valuable tip for anyone planning a path in academia or research-heavy fields.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Choosing the Right Program Graduate school can be daunting, and feelings of self-doubt are common. Micah Helzerman discusses imposter syndrome and how he works to focus on his unique strengths, rather than comparisons to others (00:14:22). He also stresses the importance of finding a program—and a community—that feels supportive and aligned with your goals.

Are you ready to be inspired, gain clarity, and learn actionable tips from those who've walked the path? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" for honest conversations and real-world advice to help you navigate your graduate journey. Don't miss this episode!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello and welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week. I love that you come back every week to be able to learn, to grow, to work on this journey that you're on. And it is a journey I always, whenever I'm talking to graduate students, I try to impart in every student that I talk to. That graduate school is not one thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Right? It's not going to be, you know, just applying. It's not just, you know, getting in. It's it. I mean, there is a whole journey that goes along with this. From the moment you figure out in your head that you say, yes, I want to do this, to the moment that you apply, to the moment you get accepted, to the moment that you're going through that, that program and you're looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and you're working toward the goals that you set for yourself. You're on a journey that you can start working on today. And that's why this show exists. This show exists to be able to help you and provide you with some, some.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: Some ideas, some thoughts, some for. Some perspectives and for. And it offers you an opportunity to learn from others that have gone before you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences to be able to provide you with an. To learn from them in the journey that they've been on. And today we got another great guest. Micah Helzerman is with us today. And Micah is a master's student in the Artificial Intelligence program at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own experiences in the journey that he's been on and for him to share that with us. Micah, thanks so much for being here today.

Micah Helzerman [00:02:02]: Yeah, thank you for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I guess I want to turn the clock back a few years because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and you got a bachelor's degree in computer science. And at some point, at some point in that journey, you made a decision. You said, I'm not done. I'm going to continue on. And you decided, I'm going to go on this, this path, this journey toward graduate school. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that graduate school was right for you at that time?

Micah Helzerman [00:02:36]: Yeah, I would have to say, to be honest, it was actually late in my senior year when I realized that I wanted to go back and complete my master's degree. I was a bit intimidated by the job market. I had heard from other peers who'd graduated before me that it was getting quite difficult to get jobs in computer science, at least compared to like five, 10 years prior. And this was about six months before agentic AI was becoming the new thing. We have things like Copilot or Quad code that can do much of the work that young software developers are doing upon graduation. And so a lot of the roles are either being filled by like senior developers or AI. And that kind of intimidated me. But another reason why I wanted to go back and get a master's was I began doing research my senior year as well.

Micah Helzerman [00:03:27]: I had two really great faculty that I did research with. The first one was Dr. Mayhem. It was my first year up project and I learned about it through the course I was taking with them. And in the second semester of my senior year, I began a UROP project with Dr. Wilson, who is my current research advisor. I was actually talking about an idea I had with another professor. And thankfully that professor was able to get us both in contact with each other so that we could work on research together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:57]: Now, I know you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And as you said, you were in your, your graduate, you were in your senior year. You made that decision. You wanted to continue on to graduate school. Now you decided to stay at the University of Michigan Flint, go into a newer program in artificial intelligence. There are other artificial intelligence programs out there. And I guess bring me to that decision making process for yourself. And what made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you at that time?

Micah Helzerman [00:04:32]: Yeah, I knew a lot of reasons this was the right place for me. For one, I did want to stay close to home with my family. And the University of Michigan Flint kind of feels like a second home to me at this point. I remember even like elementary school, high school, I went on different field trips to the campus. My two older siblings, they completed their undergraduate degree two years and three years before I completed mine. And I just knew I wanted to come back here. Also, I knew many of the faculty who I would be taking courses with. I've even taken courses with my research advisor.

Micah Helzerman [00:05:04]: And so I knew I Have these strong relations with these faculty members, the strong connection to Flint, to the university. I wanted to continue pursuing my education here because I knew great things would come from it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: So going from being an undergraduate student to a graduate student is a transition. There are different expectations, different ways of thinking, different perspectives that you have to be able to bring into what you're learning inside and outside the classroom. And in those transitions, I know that there are things that you have to do to be able to prepare yourself, but also to be able to make that transition well. So talk to me about as you transitioned into that graduate program, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the entire graduate school journey that you've been on?

Micah Helzerman [00:05:56]: Yeah, I would say the biggest difference between undergrad and grad school is everything feels a lot more self motivated. So that comes to like doing coursework, also like doing my research, everything is self motivated. The courses are mostly project based. And in the master's, which was separate from my undergrad, there were some project courses in my undergrad, but it was mostly like attending lectures and doing homework assignments. Whereas in my grad program so far I think all of my classes have had semester long projects where you continuously build on them. I think one reason why that is the case is because many of the students who are pursuing the master's in AI program, they come from different backgrounds. So a lot of them actually don't come from computing backgrounds. And so having the courses be more project based helps them use their different skills from their different backgrounds that they come from.

Micah Helzerman [00:06:48]: And yeah, so putting like the self motivation is like really key. I've had to get a more rigorous schedule compared to undergrad. I felt like undergrad I was mostly just not winging it, but just I was just barely getting by, I would say. And that wasn't satisfactory for me to achieve my goals in grad school. So I have gotten more rigorous schedule. I've started doing regular exercise and trying to find like a good work. Life balance is very important. A lot of grad students and different programs.

Micah Helzerman [00:07:17]: Mental health is more important I would say in grad school. And it kind of ties into this self motivation where if you want to get the most out of grad school, you have to put in a lot of time which, which does take like a lot of energy, a lot of effort and finding the correct balance. It does take some time to adjust compared to undergrad school and something I'm still figuring out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:37]: I would say, so talk to me about that balance. Because you said that it's really important to find that balance and you're still working on it yourself. So talk to me about currently, how have you found that balance of school, work, family, personal responsibilities while in graduate school? What have you done to get yourself to where you are today and what do you feel like you still need to do to be able to find that ultimate balance for yourself?

Micah Helzerman [00:07:59]: Yeah, I would, I would say the one thing I did is I started using Google Calendar and like putting all my events, everything I want to do in there. I'll like take notes of what I want to do each day, each week. Kind of like keep reviewing what I need to be doing, see where I'm at, what I need to do to get to where I want to be. And yeah, like I mentioned, making sure I get the exercise I need each week, making sure I see my friends, I do things with them, and then also spending time with my family, just making sure that I'm not overworking myself. Because I am a person who would sit down and start working on something and keep working on it six hours later and not realize it's 3am and that I have to go back to sleep. So like setting like reminders, calendars, taking notes on myself, how I'm feeling each day, I found has helped a lot. And to to continue improving, I would say each semester is different. You know, you take different courses, different schedule.

Micah Helzerman [00:08:54]: So schedules do change. So one thing I can do to improve is to keep getting better at adapting to different schedules.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:01]: Talk to me about the research that you're working on. I know that you said that you've been working on a research project with a faculty member at the university. And research is definitely one thing that is unique when you go to graduate school, that you have an opportunity to be able to delve deeper into something that not only you become passionate about, but others are passionate about as well. And that can offer you some different perspective on the learning that happen that's happening inside and outside the classroom. So talk to me about that. What is that research allowed for you to do and what has it allowed for you to learn as you're going through and preparing for your future?

Micah Helzerman [00:09:40]: Yeah, so my current research project is basically studying how large language models interact with math problems at varying difficulty levels. This came from a lot of different motivations. During my undergrad, I did two years of math tutoring and I noticed a lot of the students were using AI. They're using ChatGPT or Gemini to help them study for math. And a lot of, a lot of that can be very useful if it's used correctly. But I noticed it's not really well known how well AI can help assist students learning math. You know, is it just doing their homework for them or is it actually helping to enhance their learning experience outside the classroom? And so that was something I wanted to explore with Dr. Wilson.

Micah Helzerman [00:10:24]: So I began learning about large language models, how they work, and studying various papers on large language models solving math questions. And so my work led to a. My first paper, which was recently accepted to acl, which I will present in San Diego in July, which I'm excited for. And it kind of built on my background of math, basically that I wanted to understand how large language models are doing these math questions. And I also want to make sure AI is being used in a way that is helping students and not harming them. We've seen a lot of different papers, a lot of like, news headlines even about how generative AI can lead to this taking away of learning experience by just doing all the work for students and not letting them learn. And that's something I want to help overcome for future students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:15]: Now you've got about a year left in your program to be able to finish off your master's degree. And as you look into the future and you look at where you are today and where you want to be at the end of the program, talk to me about what are you planning for the next year and what are you hoping to be able to take out of this, which will lead you toward the future that you want.

Micah Helzerman [00:11:36]: Yeah, so my second year, I'm actually going to begin the Master's thesis. I hope to continue doing my research and build it into a full thesis. And I guess my goal of that is just to continue building on my research, make it better. And I do hope to apply to a PhD program in the future. Not sure where it will be. I need to do my homework on that. But I do know the University of Michigan Flint, they do have a PhD program. Two of my lab mates are actually part of it.

Micah Helzerman [00:12:06]: And it seems like a very successful program. And I might consider reapplying to the University of Michigan Flint for that once I complete my Master's. I am also taking some other user experience classes with Dr. Ann Jonas, which I am going to be excited for because much of my research so far has been more quantitative and just studying large language models, not really studying the human side. And I do want to do some more research on the human side to Get a better understanding of how people are interacting with these large language model systems and how we can improve their experience with using them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: As you think back to your graduate school experience thus far, what's some something that you wish that someone had told you before starting graduate school?

Micah Helzerman [00:12:49]: I think the one thing I wish I did more during my undergrad was reading research papers because it is something that is so important in grad school, at least as someone who is doing research, although it is also important for the grad level courses. So like a lot of the courses there is quite a bit of overlap with what like the current research is looking at, especially in AI. And so having this higher understanding of how AI large language models work from reading research papers would have helped me even more with understanding the curriculum, understanding what I can do, and it really would have helped propel my class projects even further. A lot of these class projects I've seen other students do, they can really basically turn into little startups. They put a lot of time and energy into it and the tools and programs that they create is very like beneficial to many people and it could lead to startups. And if that was something I had known, I probably would have like better prepared myself in undergrad to be able to get the full value out of my grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Sometimes I hear from graduate students that they have gone as they go through graduate school, that they hit that proverbial wall of not feeling like they belong, that they are an imposter in some ways, that they face that imposter syndrome that people talk about or sometimes have self doubt as they're going through graduate itself. Talk to me about that for yourself and how you may have had to deal with that for yourself.

Micah Helzerman [00:14:22]: Yeah, imposter syndrome is definitely a big issue in graduate school and ties back into the mental health of grad students. I, I've personally haven't dealt with it very much, but sometimes in class I do feel like I feel different from the other students. Like some of them are older, like returning after many years in industry, which it does feel like they have a lot more skills than I do, that I should have learned more in my undergrad or I should have gotten my master's degree later. But to try and overcome that, I realized my strengths. I realized how much tutoring I've done, how much research I've done during my senior year undergrad, trying to like realize my skills and building on my skills when I can in order to, from my perspective, put myself in a position similar to the other master's students. So that I feel like I fit in. But I guess not comparing myself to others is also very important because we are all different people. We all have different backgrounds, different skills, different gaps between our skills.

Micah Helzerman [00:15:21]: And yeah, just focusing on yourself, proving one day at a time, one week at a time, is very important to find success in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:30]: And finally, as you look back at your graduate education thus far, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education beyond what you've already said that would help them find success sooner?

Micah Helzerman [00:15:41]: Yeah, other than finding the correct balance, I guess, making sure you're at the right grad school. So, like, I. I decided I want to go to University of Michigan Flint because I have this strong connection with the faculty. It's close to home, but I know that's not the case for everyone, especially for international students. So going out online, going out on social media, for example, seeing which universities have a really strong social media presence, finding different clubs and organizations that you would feel like you belong to, those are impactful, I would say, in maintaining success. Because in order to be successful in grad school, you do need a strong support system. And I think a lot of that does come from the university you're attending. So I think doing your research, doing your homework on which schools, which programs you want to apply to, will be very key to finding success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:29]: Well, Mike, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's not over and you've got definitely more things that you're going to be learning over the next year, but I am really excited to be able to see where this year takes you. And I appreciate you spending some time with us today to share what you've learned thus far. And I wish you all the best.

Micah Helzerman [00:16:51]: Yes, thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:52]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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Are you contemplating graduate school or facing doubts about the next step on your academic journey? The latest episode of the Victors in Grad School #podcast is a must-listen for anyone craving a candid, inspiring, and deeply personal look at what it really takes to find success in higher education and beyond.

In this episode, host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dee Schwalm, a three-time University of Michigan-Flint graduate, whose journey exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and dedication. Her story isn't one of a straight line to success but rather a curvy, non-traditional path filled with pivotal moments and conscious choices.

Key Themes 1. The Value of a Nonlinear Journey

Dee Schwalm opens up about her beginnings as a first-generation college student who hadn't always planned on higher education. Her candid recount of starting at community college, dropping out, and finding her calling after an injury in physical therapy reminds us that success stories often start from moments of uncertainty and unexpected experiences.

1. Embracing Change and Lifelong Learning

Not content to rest after earning her Doctorate in Physical Therapy, Dee Schwalm returned to the classroom—14 years later—to become a Physician Assistant. Her drive stemmed from a desire to help fill the urgent healthcare gap and her own curiosity about the medical side of patient care. Her advice: it's never too late to make a change if you feel called to something new.

1. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Both Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dee Schwalm discuss the very real feeling of imposter syndrome that plagues many graduate students. Dee Schwalm shares powerful strategies for tackling self-doubt—suggesting that confronting what triggers these feelings can help you learn and grow.

1. Balancing Family and Ambition

For listeners juggling parenthood and academia, this episode is a goldmine of wisdom. Dee Schwalm details how she structured her time, involved her daughters in her educational journey, and used "failures" as teachable moments for her family. Her pragmatic tips on scheduling, grace, and perseverance apply to anyone feeling stretched between multiple commitments.

Tune In for Inspiration Whether you're a prospective grad student, a parent returning to school, or anyone doubting your own path, this episode offers a heartfelt dose of encouragement. Dee Schwalm's journey reminds us all: it's not where you start, but how you keep showing up, adapting, and pushing forward that truly counts.

Listen to "Victors in Grad School" and let Dee's story ignite your own next step!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you show up, you're coming back, you're here to learn, and to be able to take that next step, that next step in your journey toward graduate school. And I say it's a journey because it really is a journey. Every person, every person that's either thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going through graduate school, you are on a journey, a journey of learning, a journey of discovery.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:47]: There is a lot of things you're going to be going through, learning, growing, and becoming a different person throughout that experience. That's why this show exists. This show is here to help you on that journey, to help you to find success in the graduate school journey that you're on. No matter if you're a going to physical therapy school, physician assistant school, business school, law school, doesn't matter. There are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself for this journey, to help yourself during the journey and beyond. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective, give you some perspective on what this journey holds for you, but also some things that you might be wanting to think about, some things you might be able to put into play as you're going through this experience. And today we got another great guest. Dee Schwalm is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: And Dee is a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. She actually has three degrees from the University of Michigan, Flint. And we'll talk about that journey of going from an undergraduate student there to getting a degree in physical therapy. But that wasn't enough. She then came back after about 14 years and to become a physician assistant and just graduated from the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint as well. So we're going to talk about that journey that she's been been on, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to Hugh. Dee, thanks so much for being here today.

Dee Schwalm [00:02:11]: Thank you for having me. This is exciting. I was honored to be asked. So this is really exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:17]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And I guess I want to go back in time. I want to turn the clock Back I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in that journey, that, that journey of getting that Bachelor of Science degree in human biology, you made a decision, you made a decision to go to, to get a doctorate in physical therapy. Bring me back to that moment where you said to yourself, yep, this is the reason, this is what I'm doing. And what was going through your head.

Dee Schwalm [00:02:46]: Yeah. So my path has been very curvy and not very traditional. I will say that 100%. I'm going to rewind a little bit. So in high school, I was never the person, I'm a first generation college graduate. I was never the person who definitely planned to go to college. My parents didn't really talk about it. We didn't go visit colleges and do the traditional, traditional things.

Dee Schwalm [00:03:09]: They wanted me to have a respectable job that I would be able to take care of myself. So that was important. College wasn't out of the question, but it certainly wasn't something I had to do, which I apparently love to do because I keep going back to college. But so I started after high school. I didn't know if I was going to go. And I got the MEEP Michigan Merit Award Scholarship. And this one counselor at Swartz Creek really encouraged me. I remember her chasing me down the hall and was like, deanne, Deanne, you got the scholarship, you have to go to college.

Dee Schwalm [00:03:37]: And I thought, man, this 2,500 doll dollars, which was like a million dollars in 1999. So she said, you can use it for college. And I thought, well, you know, maybe I'll go to Mott College. That's close by. So I went and checked it out. And then my parents went and they checked it out. They thought it was good. And I started in psychology and then I moved to graphic design.

Dee Schwalm [00:03:56]: And I was sitting in a room with a computer alone all the time. And that's when I realized I need something with people like, this isn't going to work for me. I can't just be locked away. So I ended up dropping out of school because I was paying for it myself. I was waitressing, I had an apartment. I dropped out of school and it was like maybe two semesters. I ended up hurting my knee one day while I was on a run, end up in physical therapy. And it was probably the fourth or fifth visit of pt and I was looking at this PT buzzing around the room teaching people about science, which happened to be my favorite subject.

Dee Schwalm [00:04:27]: She was positive she was uplifting, she was busy. There was exercise. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm in love. I have to do this. I have to become a physical therapist. So the next week I figured out, how am I going to transfer classes to U of M Flint. I went and checked it out. I'll say for sure.

Dee Schwalm [00:04:44]: The counselors were really inviting and made me feel comfortable at U of M Flint because to me, that felt like a huge campus. I wasn't somebody who was used to that. So I started at U of M Flint, got my degree in human biology and just chased down the dream. I got a list from the counselor and the advisors, what do I need to get into the DPT program? And it was a week by week. How am I getting closer to that? How am I getting closer to that? And I applied at U of M. Flint only, which I know in hindsight sounds insane, but that's where I was going to go. That's what it. I just knew.

Dee Schwalm [00:05:17]: I just knew that's what it was going to happen. So I ended up in the PT program and it was wonderful. It's been a wonderful career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:24]: You went through this graduate school experience and you about 14 years later decided that you weren't done. And many people at the end of a physical therapy degree would say, I'm good, I'm going to do my career. I'm going to stay doing this for the career because it is a terminal degree. But you said, nope, I want to do something different or I want to add on to the degree. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide that you needed to flip the strip?

Dee Schwalm [00:05:54]: It definitely was not something that happened initially. When graduating as a pt, I loved working. I still work as a pt. I work prn. I loved it. I was working in outpatient. I worked in sports med. I worked on the weekends to pay off student loans at nursing homes and subacute rehab.

Dee Schwalm [00:06:11]: I mean, I worked, I loved it. I love the career. I mean, where else can you have a career where you enter someone, you enter the room with someone and they trust you? You might be their last resort. They're trusting you to not only make a plan of care with them, try to figure out their goals, what they're trying to get back to, but also trust you to physically carry them, if they fall, move them across the room. I mean, it's a very reward starting career. I would say the transition to PA happened as maybe in the last five years, six years working with PAs, and I was very interested in what they did. I was very interested in the medicine side of it. And I was working at a subacute rehab with patients that were COVID positive.

Dee Schwalm [00:06:54]: You know, they had multiple traumas, a motor vehicle accident, different things. And I remember hearing Amy York from PT school, which I have heard her say this over and over. You know, by the year 2030, there's expected to be over 80 million people in the United States over the age of 65. And over the last 14 years, I've heard her give this stat in my head over and over. And it's been like kind of a countdown, like, oh, we're getting closer to 2030. There's all these people that are going to need more health care. Are we ready? Are we ready? And then kind of circling back, going, working in the subacute and with the patients and just seeing that we needed more physicians and clinicians in Michigan. Currently we're 800 clinicians short in Michigan and also approaching this number where we're going to have more baby boomers reaching this age.

Dee Schwalm [00:07:40]: I was like, who's going to do this? Who's going to be the family medicine doctors? Oh, man. Well, it's not me because I took my science courses seven plus years ago. They imploded. You can't use them again after seven years. I can't go back to college. Not for me. I wonder who will do that. And I kind of tossed it around in my head and I felt pulled to be a pa.

Dee Schwalm [00:07:59]: I wondered, you know, maybe I should do that. And I told my husband about it one night and he was like, look it up. You should do that. Look it up. And I was like, oh, I felt foolish looking it up. And I looked of course at the U of M. Flint website because that's where I go to college. Okay.

Dee Schwalm [00:08:13]: Didn't look at any other websites. I know I'm a loyalist. I looked it up and I. I will never forget seeing the seven year science course waiver. When I saw that, I was like, oh, there's a spot for me. It's like emotional. But I saw that and I was like, wow, there's a spot for me. So I just chased it.

Dee Schwalm [00:08:28]: It was like that moment on two weeks later, I was taking the only class I needed, which was M Biology. I took it at Mott, which when I walked in, the teacher was like, are you here to audit my class? Like, no, I'm just a student. I'm just old sir. So I went back to Mott two days a week. Was still working as a pt. I was getting my microbiology class out of the way. And I was going to apply to PA School. My boss and PT everybody encouraged me.

Dee Schwalm [00:08:50]: They said, do it. They gave me the time off. Everybody thought it was great. I applied. I wrote my entire. Looking back, this is kind of. Kind of wild. But the Caspa.

Dee Schwalm [00:09:00]: I wrote the entire thing with U of M Flint written in it because it knew it was the only place I was going to apply. I would not give that advice to a student. But that is my path. And I just chased it down. And before I knew it, here I am, and it's over. Like that. Like a fever dream just went by. Gone.

Dee Schwalm [00:09:16]: I guess that sums it up. I don't know. Does that make any sense?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:19]: It does. And, you know, one of the things that I think is interesting is that I think what you say, what you're saying here is that you can go into a career and think it's the perfect one for you, but then as life continues, you continue to be inspired, you continue to be intrigued, and you see other ways in which you can impact the world. Now, you pushed yourself. Not everybody would do that. And you pushed yourself to take that leap. And I applaud you for that. Because I think, like I said, not everybody would do that. Sometimes we get complacent, and we're like, we're okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:53]: I'm good. But you kind of said to yourself, I want to be better, and I want to impact the world in a different way. And I applaud you for that.

Dee Schwalm [00:10:00]: Through this process, I've had some people ask me, and I just really want to, like, make sure I clarify it while I'm here. Well, oh, you left PT because you didn't like it, or it wasn't a good job or you couldn't find a job. You can find a job in PT. You can find a job in 15 minutes in PT. I mean, they are needing people. I felt kind of bad leaving the world of PT because that's needed, too. It's an excellent career. It's a rewarding job.

Dee Schwalm [00:10:22]: There's a. A lot of versatility. I just felt like it was kind of hard to come to terms with, but I was like, no, I'm not turning my back on pt. I'm not leaving pt. I'm taking it with me. I'm going to use everything I learned as a PT still and help patients. So I just really felt like it was important because some people, I think, along the way were confused, like, oh, you'd rather be a pa? I'm like, no, I'm also a pa. And both things so that's really exciting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: Now, one of the things that I think that I'm interested in asking about is this, is that every time that you transition into a new type of education, there's new expectations, there's new ways of learning. And you went from your undergraduate degree into physical therapy. That's one transition where you have to make that transition from being an undergraduate student to a physical therapy student. And then, as I said, you go, you work. Fourteen years later, you're transitioning back to school and being educated in another new way into becoming a physician assistant. So talk to me about in those transitions, those transitions from your Bachelor's to pt, from PT to work and then back to pa, what are some of the things that you had to do at the beginning to set yourself up for success? And what are some of the things that you had to do throughout the entire journey to maintain that success, throughout the entire experience?

Dee Schwalm [00:11:45]: I would say when you are leaving undergrad and entering a graduate program, there are portions of undergrad that can be rogue memorization. You can, in a way, from high school and some of undergrad, be trained and memorize, regurgitate the information and repeat. And I realized once I got into the PT program, I was a good student in undergrad, I got good grades, you know, But I realized now, oh, I'm in a graduate program. It's about understanding the information on a 360 degree axis. You have to know everything about this information. There is no more memorization. It's dancing with this information, becoming familiar with it, and also being able to teach it to someone else to ensure that you actually understand the information. So that was something I learned going into graduate school the first time.

Dee Schwalm [00:12:39]: I also learned that, you know, a graduate program, the DPT program, it's consuming. Don't make plans, okay? You're going to be busy. You are busy from the very beginning to the very end. And I think I was kind of ready for that in my mindset going back to school. I mean, there was some things that were different in PT school. Get your Scantron and take your test now. Everything's on the computer. I don't use social media.

Dee Schwalm [00:13:03]: I have a LinkedIn finally. You know, I haven't used social media since 2012. I just kind of stepped away from it. So I was behind. I didn't know how to navigate these new learning platforms. And I just totally was honest and told other students, I have no idea how to do this. Would one of you be willing to help me? I will buy you lunch. I will do Anything, I'll stay after.

Dee Schwalm [00:13:25]: And Rachel Bauer took me under her wing and taught me how to use my computer. You know, all I was using it for was PT programs to write my notes at work, search articles on PubMed. I wasn't using it like these students who grew up through Covid and their undergrad using their computer. So that was a big adjustment, I'd say. When I got to the PA program, I would tell somebody going into grad school, treat it like boot camp. You are going to give this 100%, expect it to take all of your free time. If you get any extra free time, you should be joyful about that. I really treated it like this is my full time job.

Dee Schwalm [00:13:58]: Of course, when I got home, I was mom, so I was full time job all over again. But just really understanding that this is not going to be easy. You have the spot. This is your shot. Give it 100%. Someone else wanted your seat. Someone else worked really hard for your seat. So they could be there and just take advantage of the opportunity and just really focus.

Dee Schwalm [00:14:20]: You need to set a schedule. That was really hard for me as a mom because while I was with my family, my husband and my children, my two daughters, I felt like, oh no, I should be studying all this material. I should be studying in the first month. I did not have this figured out at all. I was feeling guilt there. And then I'd go to school or be studying and feel like I should be with my family. Oh no. And so I was realizing, like, I can't focus in either place.

Dee Schwalm [00:14:43]: If I set a schedule, it gives me freedom. So while I'm in each place, I give a hundred percent at each place. And I would set it down to the hour sometimes. And my girls knew. Oh, they'd come in, it's 6:30, we're gonna eat dinner. Then you're gonna study for 45 minutes and then we're gonna play Barbies for 30 minutes. I mean, they knew, knew. They knew what's happening.

Dee Schwalm [00:15:01]: So setting a schedule, that is huge. Giving yourself grace, even the best students, which I'm not. You're gonna fail at something, you're gonna mess up in grad school and you're gonna sit in your chair and go, oh, no, they accidentally let me in. This spot was meant for someone else. Oh, I'm country mouse in the city. What am I doing here? And it's not true. They know what they're doing. They know why they chose you.

Dee Schwalm [00:15:24]: They saw potential in you. And you just have to trust the process. That's what they always told us. Trust the process. You know, take it week by week. I'm going full mom on you guys right now. Mom advice. Take it week by week.

Dee Schwalm [00:15:37]: Make a schedule, Give yourself some grace and just really just keep at it. Try to exercise, try to eat nutritious foods. Be positive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:46]: Now, I said, you just completed your PA Degree. Now that you've completed your degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you're about to embark upon?

Dee Schwalm [00:15:58]: So starting the program, I had this thought, like, am I really going to be able to do this? Am I really going to be able to do this and do it well? It's not that long of a time, you know, the didactic portion, and then there's like a year of clinicals. Are they going to really be able to transform me even with my clinical experience? So, I mean, I can't imagine how somebody who's 24, I just think they're amazing. These young people going into grad school, they're superheroes. Watching them transform has been so amazing. But the U of M Flint PA program, you have a rigorous didactic portion where you are learning a lot and they're making sure you understand the information. You're not left hanging out to dry. You're meeting with your advisor twice a semester or more. That's just the baseline.

Dee Schwalm [00:16:44]: And then when you have your clinicals, I feel really prepared because they were in all kinds of settings. You know, I had two family medicine, one month each. So two months of family medicine. I had two months of internal medicine. I was at a level one trauma at Corwell Grand Rapids. I said, hey, I'll go over there. It's only an hour, 10 minutes. Like, let's go.

Dee Schwalm [00:17:02]: I loved that. I got a clinical at the Behavioral Health Urgent Care in Flint. I had women's health. I had pediatrics at Mott Children's Health center in Flint. That was a great experience. I worked in neurosurgery at Hurley Hospital. I mean, I was doing a craniectomy, and I thought, who am I right now? This, like, helping? Of course I wasn't doing it. But they prepare you.

Dee Schwalm [00:17:24]: You have to trust the process and know that when you get to the finish line, you're going to feel confident, you're going to feel ready, and you really could go into any area and learn and grow. You know, it's just great. It's. I feel prepared, I feel excited. For me, it's family medicine and internal medicine that really, I'm the most excited about. And I just want to first take a nap and then I want to start now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:48]: Talk to me about you transitioned from one professional career into now another. And as you said, you're building upon the one to the next. And as you go through these type of programs, whether it be physical therapy, physician assistant, they are rigorous programs. Both of these programs are full time programs. You're putting yourself out there, you're jumping in with both feet and you get pushed from day one. And there are definitely times in programs like these, but also any graduate program where you may feel some imposter syndrome, you may, like you just said, say, I don't know if I can do this. Talk to me about that. As you transition from being a physical therapist to jumping back in as a student, to becoming a physician assistant.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:31]: Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during either graduate studies? And how did you handle it?

Dee Schwalm [00:18:37]: I absolutely did. And I think every student does and will and maybe should feel imposter syndrome. Maybe it keeps you honest, maybe it keeps you hard working. Maybe I felt it. And I think when you come face to face with imposter syndrome, you have a couple decisions you can make. What am I going to do about it? I just going to shrink down and shrink away from this, this, and I don't like the way this feels, so I'm just not going to move forward with this. Or are you going to say, what is it that is making me feel imposter syndrome? Is it because I don't actually know the material? Maybe I know it, but I don't know how to explain it. So I think I don't know it and really take a step back and think, why do I have this feeling? And then try to crush it.

Dee Schwalm [00:19:18]: Try to learn more, practice more. I honestly felt it was strange going back to school because I was older than some of my professors, those young ladies. I didn't really feel at first a connection with the students and I didn't really feel I was at the level of the professors, obviously. So I was just kind of my own little Switzerland. And that made me feel an imposter syndrome almost everywhere I went, like, I'm not one of you and I'm not one of you. But then like the first week I decided this is my spot, this is for me, this is my path. And I'm not gonna spend time and energy feeling this way. I am here to learn just like everyone else.

Dee Schwalm [00:19:54]: There was some internal pressure. The professors never put pressure on me to know more than anyone else or Single out. Like, it wasn't like that. I was just one of the group, which I really appreciated because I really needed that. I would say I felt the internal pressure that, am I going to be expected to know everything? Am I going to be expected to know everything faster? Am I supposed to catch on to this right away? And that really wasn't the case. They gave me the same opportunity to learn as everyone else. And that really helped. Once I realized that, it kind of helped me crush that.

Dee Schwalm [00:20:29]: That imposter syndrome feeling. And then also just realizing, like, this is my spot. It doesn't matter what anybody thinks about this. Oh, if they think it's strange or it was just really, this is my spot, and I'm going to take it. I'm going to chase this down.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:42]: And some graduate students like yourself are going through graduate school while they're balancing being a parent. They have young families. They're trying to better themselves while they're also being mom, dad, et cetera. I know you have two young daughters yourself, and you were going through that PA program while you were being mom, and you talked about that a little bit. Talk to me about the message you're trying to share with your kids about following your passions and your. And your dreams. And how do you talk to them about that?

Dee Schwalm [00:21:14]: Well, they were totally supportive of me going back to school. My husband was totally supportive, which I feel very lucky. At first, when I was starting the program, I didn't realize. I mean, I always talked about it with him, but I'd say involving them in it made it more special for them. Every time after a test, it was, it's test day. You know, Mom's gonna study even more over the next week, but we're all gonna celebrate on Friday. And I remember, like, the first month, like, if I didn't do well on a test, I almost felt like I was letting them down. And I remember not telling him one time, like, oh, my gosh, I didn't do as well on this test as I thought I was gonna do.

Dee Schwalm [00:21:52]: And they saw me studying, would they then be, like, discouraged? And I don't know when it clicked, but I thought, no, I want to teach them how to be successful and work hard, but I also want to teach them what it's like when you fall on your face. And so I told them that didn't work out. And so you get to watch how I'm going to behave when something doesn't work out. Do I give up? Do I keep going? Do I work harder? Do I give myself some Grace and thinking about how they were watching me made me be more positive because it's wiring them for how do I respond when I don't succeed and I don't know what path they'll choose. Maybe they'll choose college, maybe they won't, I don't know. But I want them, whatever they do, to be able to fall on their face and go, that's all right, I got a lot left and get right back up. So that was important to me. That was huge.

Dee Schwalm [00:22:39]: And just involving them and you know, okay, it's the end of the semester, we're going to save up and go to a hotel for a night or two and just try to reward them because they make sacrifices to too. Even though they weren't saying it, they were making sacrifices. Even though I'm sitting next to him on the couch studying with my headphones on, I'm still not as engaging as I would have been if I had him off. So I understood that would try to make time for him and go for walks and how was your day? I read this thing, the 21 minute rule where you're supposed to try to do seven minutes of quality time in the morning and afternoon and evening with your children and just look at them and just listen. And I think just trying to be engaging with them and keep them involved in your, your, in your path of grad school will make everybody in the family feel like they achieved something.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: And as you think back to either of the graduate school experiences that you've gone through, what's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started either physical therapy or before you started the PA program?

Dee Schwalm [00:23:41]: That it was a good idea that, that I was going to pray every day because I did. So that was very helpful. I wish somebody would have told me that because that was a huge help for me. I don't know that I would have been successful without prayer. I think. I don't know if there's something specific someone can tell you, just that it's going to be time consuming. But it will, it will pass and it will go by quickly. Even though it feels some weeks like it's dragging out, it will go by quickly.

Dee Schwalm [00:24:12]: You know, you will get to the finish line and even though you don't feel prepared by the time you get to the finish line, you will. You have to just trust that you're going to continue growing, not going to walk in and be the boss. You're not going to walk in and be a pt. You're not going to walk in and be a pa. I'm not going to walk into my new job and be great at it. I need to find somewhere where they can teach me and I can learn. And that's just, just be okay with that. Be okay with that.

Dee Schwalm [00:24:40]: I think that's. I wish somebody would have told Young D that before she got into PT school the first time. So.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:49]: And as you look back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in the sciences, in business, in some other area, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dee Schwalm [00:25:08]: Are you focused? Do you have a written out, bulleted list? What are you going to do to get towards this goal this week, this month? And I love to cross off a list. I might write make the list so I can cross off, make the list, make a list, write it out, Keep focused. Because you could easily get lost in time and months go by and you haven't moved forward. Everything might not work out just as you planned. And it might send you in a different direction. You might not get into the graduate program that you wanted to, but maybe that opens another door. You just have to keep your mind open and keep working towards your own success. And you're the only person who writes your story.

Dee Schwalm [00:25:47]: It doesn't matter where you're from. It doesn't matter if your family went to college. It doesn't matter what your past was. You know, if you want to write your story and you want college in it, then chase after it. Then make it happen. Find a way, change jobs, keep working at it until you find a way. Because it's probably your calling. It's probably what you're supposed to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Well, Dee, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not done. It'd be interesting to see where you land here after you get that next position. I know you just passed your boards. Congratulations. And I'm really excited to be able to see what the future has in store for you. But I really, truly appreciate your time and I wish you the best.

Dee Schwalm [00:26:31]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:33]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to do be a Victor in Grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgradoffice@umflint.Edu.

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Graduate school is often described as a journey—full of challenges, opportunities, and transformative experiences. In this episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Michael McGetrick, the co-founder of Spark451, to explore what it really takes to succeed in graduate education and beyond. Whether you're at the start of your academic path, mid-way through your studies, or reflecting on your professional future, you'll find Michael's story both inspiring and relatable.

A Story of Growth, Change, and Connecting the Dots

From his early days as an English and Studio Art major at Brooklyn College, Michael McGetrick recognized the value of pairing creativity with analytical thinking. The transition from traditional design to the digital age led him to realize the profound business impact of his work—a realization that inspired him to pursue graduate studies. By earning a Master's in Management at NYU Tandon School of Engineering, he intentionally sought to bridge creativity, data, and technology, setting the stage for a career at the intersection of these worlds.

But the learning didn't stop there. Motivated by a desire for further growth and transformation, Michael McGetrick returned to earn an MBA. He credits this decision—and the people he met along the way—as a catalyst for founding successful companies like Spark451 and Element451. For Michael McGetrick, graduate school was about more than coursework; it was about building connections, embracing new challenges, and transforming into a leader capable of navigating today's fast-changing technological landscape.

Balancing Life, Work, and Study

One of the episode's resonant themes is balance. Michael McGetrick candidly discusses the realities of juggling academics, a demanding career, and family responsibilities. Whether it was studying alongside his wife or burning the midnight oil after his children went to bed, he emphasizes the importance of commitment, open communication, and finding excitement in the field you choose.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

If you're contemplating graduate school, Michael McGetrick urges you to stay curious, engage deeply with your professors and peers, and draw inspiration from cutting-edge ideas in your discipline. Graduate education, he notes, can truly be a lever for personal and professional transformation.

Ready to be inspired by Michael's full journey and advice? Listen to the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" and take the next step on your own graduate school adventure!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about graduate school and maybe it's the right time, maybe it's not. Maybe you've put in that first application, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school no matter where you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: It is truly a journey because there are things that you can do along the way to be able to prepare yourself, but also to find success in that journey that you'll be on. Where you start may not be where you end up in regards to the through line of graduate school and into the careers that you want to go into, but that's why this podcast is here. This podcast is here to help you to be able to start seeing things in different ways, for you to be able to learn new things and to be able to see how others have been able to find success in their own journeys. That's why every week I bring you someone new individuals that have had graduate school experiences that may be like yours, but maybe very, very different than yours as well. The ultimate goal here is that you have an opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, and to take something out of every episode, whether it's one thing, whether it's 10 things. I want you to be able to have some tools for your toolbox that'll help you to be able to find success sooner. Today we got another great guest. Michael McGetrick is with us today and Michael is the co founder of Spark451.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: It is a company that works in higher education, working with different universities in higher education. We'll talk a little bit about that today, too, about how his own graduate school led him to what he's doing today. But I'm really excited to have him here and for him to share some of his own journey with you. Michael, thanks so much for being here today.

Michael McGetrick [00:02:07]: Chris, it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me. This is a topic that is very close to my heart. So excited for this conversation and to share some of my experience with your audience. So thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm going to turn the clock back in time because I want to go way back. I want to go all the way back to when you were in that undergraduate space. And I know you did your undergraduate degree at Brooklyn College. You got a bachelor's degree in English and studio art and then you ended up leaving, going off and. But you continued your education in a number of different ways, whether it was through a formal graduate degree or other educational opportunities that allowed for you to be able to grow and learn. I wanted you to take me back to your days at Brooklyn College and talk to me about what lit that spark of continuing education and what made you decide when you first decided that you wanted to go and take that next step, take that next step in your education beyond the bachelor's that you wanted to do that.

Michael McGetrick [00:03:10]: Well, it's a fairly interesting story. You've nailed correctly my history. I did go to Brooklyn College as a commuter. I majored in English. And did you Art with a focus on graphic design, which were two, I would say complimentary majors. To be able to communicate really well with the written word as well as using graphics and visuals. And that was like a nice complimentary skill set. A lot of, a lot of the world was changing at the time from manual paste ups.

Michael McGetrick [00:03:41]: If anyone listening to this could have pictured and imagine there was. There was a time when any like communication that was put together was done with razor blades and glue and they would put paste up, you know, words and typography and paste up photos next to each other. Of course now it's done all with computer and it was transitioning literally at that moment when I was doing that work. So as much as the world is had multiple transition points, that was one of the big ones. And so with that developing skill, I was able to be walked into an ad agency in New York and to the studio by my professor, Professor Richard Navin. And he said, oh, this is McG, he's really good, you should hire him. And they hired me on the spot. And that was like a really nice thing for a professor to do for me and got me started in my career literally that way.

Michael McGetrick [00:04:31]: So I spent quite a bit of time growing and learning. Advertising and technology was changing and certainly the web took off and websites were a big part of the work that I was doing. And I had this realization that being first focused on the craft design, storytelling, user experience. But over time I noticed something important, that the work I was doing wasn't just creative, it was really, really directly influencing Business outcomes, campaigns that sometimes would affect sales or if it was for a university, affect enrollments, websites that affected conversion rates, the sign decisions that impacted the revenue for the organizations that I was working with. And so that realization really shifted my perspective and I became less interested in just executing the work and more interested in understanding the systems that were underneath it, how the decisions were made, how these organizations were growing, and, you know, how data and technology, which were kind of like mysterious things to me but were becoming more tangible as I was using them, and how they shape the strategy of an organization. And that's really what led me to graduate school. To answer your question, I made this intentional decision to study management, but within an engineering school. I wanted to surround myself with a more quantitative, systems oriented approach to business because that's the kind of work I was doing, doing E commerce websites, selling things on the web, connecting to inventory systems.

Michael McGetrick [00:05:59]: It wasn't just about leaving creativity behind, it was pairing it with something more analytical, with a lot of thinking and innovation behind it. And ultimately that combination really defines what I do today and my work in higher education, marketing, enrollment strategy. I'm constantly sitting on that intersection of creativity, data and technology. So whether it's building some digital campaigns, looking at student behavior, mapping out student journeys, or now working with AI driven engagement, you know, the goal is always the same, that I want creative thinking and measurable outcomes. I want those two things to intersect at all times. So in a lot of ways, graduate school gave me the tools to move upstream in the value chain, not just to create the work, but to help shape the strategy behind it. And that whole experience has been incredibly valuable, especially now as we go through another technological revolution where AI is reshaping how the institutions I work with connect with their customers, connect with their students. And I think that going forward from a graduate school perspective, there's going to be a lot of value for the listeners.

Michael McGetrick [00:07:06]: Think about how they might want to bridge different interests of theirs. Creativity, technology, business thinking. You know, the people who can connect those things together in the AI age are the ones who are really going to be able to drive some impact. So I think it's an interesting story that's kind of my, my big picture of what drove me there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:22]: So talk to me a bit about. You're in New York, there's a lot of universities in the New York area. You ended up deciding to go to NYU Tandon School of Engineering, as you said, focusing on looking at management, but through a bit more of a technological lens. And I'm sure there were Other programs you probably could have chosen along the way. Talk to me about the process that you went through when you made that decision to go and get that first master's degree in management. What made you decide on nyu?

Michael McGetrick [00:07:54]: Yeah, so I think I saw Steve Jobs give that commencement speech at Stanford about connecting the dots. And he basically laid out the story. It's, you know, he. He studied calligraphy at Reed College, which led him to value typography to be great on the Mac. And other things happened in his life that led to the path that led to Apple. And so I started thinking of, like, you know, hey, I've got sort of this. This technology movement that's happening, and I'm dealing bases and like, learning it on the fly and not really sure everything that's happening contextually with it and working with engineers and developers and business people. And so I said, you know, I feel like I'm on the technology side of business here.

Michael McGetrick [00:08:38]: And so that's where I want to approach my graduate education. I think I need to be on the technology side of business. So I looked around and some schools have great business programs and some have great technology programs. And I said, I. I want a comb of both. And that's where a engineering school that had a management department was very attractive to me. And the fact that you can study with engineers was a big part of it. But I will say there was one thing that gave me pause, right? It's like, did I belong? I think a lot of your listeners might have that question, do I belong here? And also, I was coming back after being out of school for maybe eight years.

Michael McGetrick [00:09:17]: And so I had left all my study habits behind. I had forgotten how to solve for X with math. And like, literally, I'm like, when started taking courses, had to, like, get some tutorials on algebra and. And lead everything leading up to calculus to reawaken my mind to remember the high school math I had taken. So those questions of will I belong in this organization? Will I belong in this school? They came up and, you know, ultimately I think, you know, you can find your place wherever you might wind up. You discover that you do belong if you put in the work and people appreciate that and. And a community gets formed. So I did wind up in the right place.

Michael McGetrick [00:09:55]: And I think it worked out very well for me. And I apprec. Experience I had there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: And you talked about the fact that it was about eight years from the point in which you got your bachelor's. It went to getting that master's degree, and then almost another Another five years down the road from there, you decided to go back again to get another Master's degree, also from nyu. And not everybody decides to make that choice to continue getting another degree after they get two degrees. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that getting an MBA on top of your Ms. In was something that would help you to move further forward?

Michael McGetrick [00:10:34]: Yeah, so I think that was sort of an existential moment. I was at a point in my career where I felt like I needed to take another leap. I was kind of doing the same thing for a while, running an agency and like kind of remaining in the same spot. It was going very well. But what was the next thing I wanted to hit career wise. So for me, I look to higher education for, as a transformation, a transformer, a catalyst. Right. I say, okay, like you want to become something new, you need to have different inputs.

Michael McGetrick [00:11:08]: So for me, the MBA was an attractive program for a couple of reasons. First, it just so happened that if you had a Master's in management, they would transfer a certain number of credits into the MBA program, which was a very flexible, nice offering that they had. And second, it was a real kind of transformational time. Social media was taking off again, another technological revolution taking place. So there was good timing there, all the Web 2.0 stuff happening. So there was a convergence of factors. And then just the. There were a few professors there that I had become friendly with that were running the program and I just knew I wanted to be there with them.

Michael McGetrick [00:11:50]: So all these things aligned to say, hey, this is a great idea. Let's, let's go into the MBA program at the NYU School of Engineering and see what happens. And if I were to continue, I'd say it was incredibly transformational. Once again, I happen to be in school with, with some really talented individuals in the program, people who are doing incredible things in their day to day work. It tended to be people who were a little bit older, like average age of 30 plus. And, and everybody was a successful professional in their own right. And so I got to meet and do projects with some great people and I took a course that was very transformational, a course in entrepreneurship with this professor named Bruce Niswander. And he was the head of the incubator at nyu and he was responsible for launching all sorts of companies.

Michael McGetrick [00:12:42]: So he wasn't just a scholar, but he was an applied researcher, an applied professor, and he really practiced what he preached. So he had us create companies and come up with cash flow statements and he made it very tangible and real. And every part of the entrepreneurship process exposed to us from a person who practiced it. I happened to meet a classmate and become very close with him, a software engine engineer. His name was Artist Kadu. And we became really close and we had done a project together and we sort of, sort of say, hey, you know, we ever decided to start a company, we should do it together. And so that was sort of like the beginning of the idea of what eventually became Spark451, which is the company I founded with him and another NYU engineering grad named Steve Kersh. And it started in that classroom, you know, really from a vision of mutual ideas.

Michael McGetrick [00:13:35]: Artis was a software engineer, and he had lots of ideas about higher education software, and I had ideas about higher education marketing. And Steve was higher education enrollment expert. And the three of us converged and formulated the idea to start Spark 51. And it was purely from that graduate experience that startup became a viable entity and led to another startup named element451, which is also an extremely successful company, and that artists eventually spun off and became the CEO of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:05]: So talk to me a little bit about what you learned in the program. You just talked about the connections that you made and how those connections led to two different companies that spun off from that education and those connections that you built in that education. And now that you look at the degrees that you did receive for yourself and you think back to what you learned in those degrees, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received prepared you for the work that you are still doing on a day to day basis?

Michael McGetrick [00:14:39]: So I heard a great quote once that said, students learn from what they think and what they do, and only from what they think and what they do. And so the graduation I received, it had a lot of great subject matters that converged. But the thing that was transformational for me was I was purely liberal arts leading up to that points, right. I thought any problem could be solved by more messaging, more creativity, more marketing, more advertising. And I realized that there was so much to the equation by working in the field, but now actually sort of understanding it. And the course that really did it for me was managerial economics. The idea that you can model the future, right? And you can model any particular system in the world and create inputs that lead to outputs. And so you kind of start to connect the dots that any kind of business system has a whole series of inputs, and we learned mathematical equations from modeling them.

Michael McGetrick [00:15:40]: And so it kind of brought all these disparate systems together and, and created this new shift in My mind and thinking that, yeah, you know, you can, you can manage these very large things by thinking about them from a system perspective, from a model perspective, and you can break them down into individual components and try to optimize them. And that became my, my way of thinking about managing organizations and, and managing systems and managing very complex projects that they're, you know, there are series of inputs and outputs and you can manage those inputs individually, you can delegate them individually, and that's the way large organizations work and trying to optimize them. All of the necessary data that has to come into those equations and all the statistical analysis that can be. Be applied across them and you learn these things across different classes in quantitative analysis and, and statistics. So like, I had this whole new tool set that was available to me to make me a much more effective professional. And these programs, I give them credit for transforming me, like literally changing who I was in the world to a new person. You can change someone or you can transform them. And I think the most valuable graduate programs create that sense of transformation that I.

Michael McGetrick [00:17:02]: New person coming out of this. Maybe not a new person to the people that love you and your family and your, you know, your spouse, but certainly a new person as you show up in, in the world professionally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: Just talked about your spouse or your family. And as you go through graduate school, there's a lot of balance that has to happen for you to be able to be successful as a student. But you're also wearing many hats as a professional, personally, with your family, friends, or others. Talk to me about balance for yourself. And how did you find that balance as you were going through graduate school that allowed for you to be able to find the success that you wanted in the experience that you went through?

Michael McGetrick [00:17:44]: Yeah, well, I'm very glad you asked that. I have sort of a couple of different perspectives there. The first degree, I was a married man with no kids yet, so I felt like I was able to balance that by sitting at the table at night doing my reading with my wife next to me and going through the problems. Very large problem sets, sometimes operations management. You'd have like many, many pages of equations to solve and just like literally sharing with her what I was reading and going through and said Billy Joel song, tell her about it. That was sort of my, my approach to putting in time with her while actually doing studying, just making sure that she was involved in knowing what I was going through and what I was learning. And we'd have interesting conversations around it. And so it was fun.

Michael McGetrick [00:18:31]: It's very fond Memory of those times in our first apart and going through large textbooks of manager economics and operations management. And then later when I got the MBA program, I had two children at the time and so that became even more difficult. But it was a matter of commitment to all the above and just you didn't want to do anything in half measures, right? So you want it to be continue your professional output, handle your work very well, your full time job, but also still be a great parent and still do excellent work in your MBA program and go all out. So that was my commitment to just go all out in all three. So cut back in a little sleep, Chris. But hit every project really hard. Fit, fit in everything I could. Putting in some late nights after the kids go to sleep to, to get it done.

Michael McGetrick [00:19:16]: And just that commitment that you were building towards something that was leading toward a better future and better for these kids and for your spouse. So it was just a full commitment to it all and just, you know, maybe sharing that idea with your spouse that this is something you're committed to and you're going to give it your best on all fronts and if you fall on one of them, so be it. You'll make it on the next week and give it your best shot all the way through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:41]: Earlier you'd mentioned that when you went to graduate school the first time, it had been eight years. It was five years after that when you went to get that second master's degree. And whenever I talk to individuals about graduate school, there is a transition. There's a transition going from one, one type of degree to another type of degree, going from bachelor's to master's. You went from a very different type of bachelor's degree into a master's degree in a completely different type of area. And there is a transition that you go through in from one degree to the next and understanding expectations and learning what you need to do to be able to be successful. Take me back and talk to me a little bit about those things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school and figuring out the, just that beginning part of it, but also as you were going through those graduate school experiences, what you had to do to again find success as you were going through that journey.

Michael McGetrick [00:20:35]: Yeah, reflecting back on it, it was a fairly rough transition in the first semester, just getting back into reading and assignments and, and as I mentioned before, doing things mathematically, solving, solving math problems again. Ah, I thought, I put this aside and thought I got past all this, but here I am again doing it. So yeah, that was a fairly rough transition and certainly I needed to get back on the path. And the other was, it was a new vocabulary. And I, you know, whatever, whatever area of study you pursue, there's always going to be that set of vocabulary that you need to become comfortable with. And so I think the, the program did a great job by forcing us to make multiple presentations to the class. So you had to prepare, you had to deliver the presentation, use the words, talk about it, use the vocabulary. And so, so after that initial, rough start of getting in and dealing with this new set of vocabulary, and again, a lot of the things were engineering project management, for example, the engineers seem to have a much better handle on it than I did and, and was taught in a very engineering type way and, and taught in the context of construction and civil engineering projects, which were completely foreign to me.

Michael McGetrick [00:21:54]: But you dig in, you ask questions, you work in teams, you engage your classmates. And, and I think that's another part of the graduate experience that enriches your experiences, just working with diverse teams and groups of people who have different experiences and share that so you can learn as much from your classmates as you can from your professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:15]: Speaking of professors, I know that you also are an adjunct faculty member at a couple different institutions and you've taught classes along the way. So you're interacting with students at different points in their own careers and talking to them about the journeys that they're on. Talk to me about the learning that you have there and the conversations that you've had with students. And what do you tell students now as they may come to you and talk to you about graduate school or future education for themselves?

Michael McGetrick [00:22:44]: First of all, teaching as an adjunct was something that I started out doing to make some extra money to help with the mortgage payments, to help with the rent. And I've continued to do it to this day because it's become a, you know, a passion project. Right. Like I think most adjuncts at some of these professional schools are, you know, just do it because they love the experience, they love working with students, and they love the type of interaction and engagement that we get and sharing our professional experience with the next generation. And that's what it's become for me. So, you know, I think of graduate education as, on a couple of ways when I'm, when I'm advising students. Like, I think first that if you're going to go right after undergrad, like you've had all these different variety of courses you've had to take, you might have a core curriculum at your College, you may have your major, you may have a second major, you may have a minor. So you have all these really different types of courses along with your major.

Michael McGetrick [00:23:39]: And as you become a senior from junior into senior year, you start really understanding that vocabulary. You're starting to really get into the groove of that particular field. And so you have this incredible momentum that you could carry directly into a graduate program that will lead to your success in that graduate program. So I think that's one advantage of going into a master's program right out of undergrad is like you're just ear in the groove, you'll get it done on, you'll accelerate your learning and you can just sort of truly become a master of that field. And that's one way of looking at it. The other is I did appreciate for business education, I think you really should hold off a couple years and work for a few years. If you're going to get a master's in business or an mba, I think it's much more valuable to go out and get a few years of experience and then really you'll appreciate and apply the learning much more rapidly if you have some business context, a few years of experience. So that's why the best MBA program programs require that.

Michael McGetrick [00:24:36]: In addition, they want to, they want to have better starting salaries for their graduates, you know, self serving in that. But I think it's, it served the students well to just have that contextual business experience. And then finally I think graduate education can be that transformative experience to change you from one thing to another. And if you're looking for a change in career, if you're looking to enter a different field, if you felt like your undergraduate major was something that isn't going to connect you directly to a career, I think a master's program can be that catalyst to connect you to a whole new career. And there are so many programs that do that. So no matter what your undergraduate program is, if you feel you wasted your money, if you feel like you wasted your time, you can find a graduate program out there that will connect you into a lucrative, high paying career. The, the possibilities are infinite and out there. So definitely think about graduate education as that, that lever to trans that career switch, if you will.

Michael McGetrick [00:25:35]: No doubt about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:35]: And I guess finally as you look back at your own graduate experiences or graduate school experiences and you're talking to individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, in technology, in whatever area it might be, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would Help them find success sooner.

Michael McGetrick [00:25:57]: When I think about my own experience, I feel like I was super excited about the graduate program I was going to undertake. And I had read a few business books that got me excited and sort of connected to the narrative of business. And so if I were going to give some quick advice to someone who was looking for launching their success, I would just say, you know, make sure you're up to speed on the latest thinking in your field. Make sure you're. Before you start the program, read some of the more interesting literature that is in your field. Tap into the, let's say, the strongest, most appreciated minds in your field and read their books, read their literature, read their articles to get you excited about what's happening in the field and what's going to learn. Because I think excitement and enthusiasm are the things that are going to lead to your success. And that is going to be something that sustains you when the work gets hard, when you have other obligations in life and it might be easy to take a semester off.

Michael McGetrick [00:27:08]: So just try to maintain that excitement and enthusiasm about the program you're going to undertake. Second, your professors are there because they have a passion for what they do. They are dedicated to your success. They've devoted their lives and their careers to produce successful students, and ultimately that's what they want. While they give you hard work and hard assignments and hard projects to do, do they do ultimately want your success. So tap into their capabilities. Tap into them as a resource. They don't want you to fail.

Michael McGetrick [00:27:40]: They want you to succeed in a big way. And furthermore, they can have incredible networks that can connect you to opportunities that you may not think are out there, whether professional connections, research, so on and so forth. And I would say, you know, getting involved at the graduate level, making, making friends, making connections. If you do an online program, there's still community to be had. If you're on campus, make sure you're taking the time to not just go to class and do the work, but to really engage with your fellow students and build connections that are going to be there for life as they have been for me. So get that sustaining interest and excitement about the program, tap into your professors and that and build your community in whatever form that takes, whether on campus or online. And I think you're going to have an amazing time in a graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:33]: Well, Michael, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And I know it's not over, your journey continues. But I truly appreciate you sharing all of this today and the things that you've learned along the way, and I wish you all the best.

Michael McGetrick [00:28:47]: Thank you Chris. It's been a pleasure and good luck to everyone out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a unique and often challenging journey, filled with twists, turns, and transformative experiences. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Jeff Yackley, Assistant Professor at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack the realities of graduate life and share powerful insights for current and aspiring grad students.

From the outset, Dr. Jeff Yackley takes listeners on a personal journey that began with dreams of medical school and shifted through industry, eventually landing with passion in academia and research. Through these major transitions, Dr. Jeff Yackley underscores the importance of introspection—the ability to honestly assess one's motivations and strengths—and resiliency, the determination to keep moving forward even when plans change or setbacks occur.

A striking moment comes as Dr. Jeff Yackley describes grappling with self-doubt, particularly when struggling to publish his first research paper. Despite repeated rejections, he found strength by relying on his support system—advisors, labmates, and trusted faculty—and by redefining success on his own terms. Classroom teaching became a powerful wellspring of confidence, "I was getting really great teaching evaluations, I was still getting positive feedback from students," he shares, highlighting that encouragement can come from unexpected places (10:51).

Throughout the episode, the theme of connection is evident. Dr. Jeff Yackley credits the guidance of a faculty mentor for seeing potential in him and encouraging a path in research and teaching. He emphasizes the value of getting to know your professors, participating in lab groups, and building relationships with peers—essential for both professional growth and personal resilience.

Time management, another common grad school struggle, is addressed with practical advice. Dr. Jeff Yackley shares strategies like breaking tasks into manageable pieces and avoiding perfectionism, admitting, "things don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough" (13:48).

The episode closes with actionable tips for those considering graduate school: deepen your curiosity, go beyond assignment requirements, and embrace opportunities to connect with faculty and peers. Whether your interest is in computer science, business, or any other field, Dr. Jeff Yackley's journey is proof that success is shaped by resilience, self-reflection, and the relationships you build along the way.

Interested in more insights like these? Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and start building your own toolbox for graduate success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr.Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to have a conversation with you, for you to be here, to learn more, and to be working toward that goal or those goals that you've set for yourself. You are truly on a journey. You're on a journey through that graduate education that you want to achieve. And I call it a journey because it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Every person that goes to graduate school is on a little bit of a different path, is on a little bit of a different journey. But along the way, there are things that you can do to be able to be successful in that journey, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences. And from those experiences, my hope is that you'll take a few nuggets, you'll take some things out of every conversation to be able to add some tools to your toolbox and be able to do what you can, to be able to move yourself along and find that success sooner. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Jeff Yackley is with us today. And Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:18]: Yackley is an assistant professor at the University of Michigan Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology. And I'm really excited to be able to have him chat with you to and for us to learn a little bit more about his own experience. Jeff, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:01:32]: Thanks, Chris. It's an honor to be here and to be able to share my experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: Well, I really appreciate you being here and for sharing this today. And I guess I want to go back in time a little bit because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, and then at some point during that journey, you made a decision. You made a decision that at some point that a along the way you were going to continue your education, and you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan and then went over to the University of Michigan, Dearborn, but then you continued on and you decided to continue on to get the master's and the doctorate, both from the University of Michigan, Dearborn as well. Bring me back to that early point where you were going through that undergraduate degree and you said, you know what? I'm not done. And I want to continue what was Going through your head.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:02:23]: Well, that's quite a story, Chris. I guess to start when I graduate, graduated from U of M, Ann Arbor in biochemistry, I had dreams of going to medical school, and I tried to force the route, went to a Caribbean school. And when I did go to a hospital, I found I didn't like dealing with all of the things that you would expect in a medical environment, all of the horrible pain and suffering that can occur in a hospital. And so I talked with the dean of the medical school, actually, and he had suggested if I had not wanted to go down this path, what would I pursue? And he was suggesting law school at the time. And I said I didn't think that was for me. And I had this early love of computers in high school that I never really got to explore. And so I looked for an opportunity to be able to pursue that. And so I went to the U of M Dearborn.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:03:05]: And while at Dearborn, I had made some connections with several faculty members, and I must have had three or four classes with one individual. And we really worked well together. And I ended up taking some leadership positions in a couple of the classes on some significant term projects. And when I graduated, I would say, in computer science, it's pretty common that a lot of students don't go to grad school. And I was no different. I wanted to jump right in and see what industry was like. I had done an internship, and after a short time in industry, I really wasn't feeling that the current situation I was in, how do I say it, they were using outdated technologies. And I really felt that if I didn't stay current, particularly with the growth in AI, that I was going to fall behind.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:03:48]: And I really wanted to jump careers again to go back from the current development environment I was working in to more of an automotive placement, since I figured being in Michigan, that was a really great career move. But when I started my master's degree and I really had this idea that I wanted to keep pursuing this graduate education, I was approached actually by that instructor for my undergraduate degree. And he had suggested that U of M Dearborn was now opening a PhD program and it might be something I'd be interested in. And he thought I had some qualifications that would make me well suited for it. We had worked previously together, and I really respected him and really enjoyed really exploring the topics in his class together through his instruction. And so I decided, yeah, let's make a third career switch and go from medicine to software development to now looking at more of an academic role and pursuing Research, and that's really where I entered PhD program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:45]: Now, at every level of education, there are transitions that you go through. And you went through a number of transitions. You went from undergrad to med school, from med school back to undergrad, from grad, from undergrad to master's and then to doctorate. And at every level, there's different expectations, there's different perspectives, there's different demands from faculty, different demands on reading, different demands on lots of different things. And you have to maneuver through those transitions. You have to figure out, what does it mean to find success as I jump from one to the next. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into those different graduate school experiences to find success? And what did you have to do throughout those different experiences, through the journey in those different programs, programs and experiences to sustain that success throughout the entirety?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:05:41]: I really think there's been two things, which is really resiliency and also introspection. And I think before you make the move, you really have to decide, is this what you want? Is this what you are really looking for in terms of an experience and being honest with yourself about where you're at and what you want to do and what your current abilities are? Back when I was in medical school, it was a very hard decision to give up that career path and not keep pushing forward. And I must have spent several months just thinking about what I was going to do. And I would say anyone looking to make a major career decision like that should, of course, spend a large amount of time thinking about it. But then also there is that resiliency aspect where in your graduate education, things aren't always going to go to plan. You might struggle on a research project or getting a certain research paper published at a journal or conference. And all along that way, you have to keep pushing it forward. You have to keep willing to put in the hours to revise and adapt, listen to feedback that you get, and just keep pushing yourself ahead to be better.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:39]: Yeah, you definitely have to do that. You have to go through that and figure that out for yourself many times to find out what it means to find that resiliency and pick yourself up as you go along. Because there will be times that. Where things are hard and you may have to push through, or you have to pivot and figure out, as you said in your medical school experience, that it wasn't the right fit. Now, you talked about the fact that a faculty member saw something in you and that they invested in you and encouraged you to think Think differently about what you were doing and what that end goal was. Talk to me about that. Because as you said, you entered your secondary graduate school experience in computer science thinking you wanted to do one thing, but then when you had that investment in that faculty member that was trying to encourage you, talk to me about that thought process for yourself. Because I'm sure that it wasn't an easy, aha, yes, this is exactly what I want to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:39]: It probably had some introspection, as you mentioned, that you had to go through. So talk to me about that.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:07:44]: Yeah, so it was another big decision, really trying to decide did I want to stay in industry or basically commit to this more academic role. And along that way, I had thought a lot about what I really enjoyed during my undergraduate degree with this professor and how we explored different questions. And what I really enjoyed was kind of that process of discovery, being able to pursue a topic I was particularly passionate about and being encouraged to see where it goes and without necessarily being told how to do it or, you know, this is what you have to do. I was allowed to really explore and see what worked and what didn't. And that was something even in industry that I didn't get because you have to meet certain project deadlines, you have to publish products in order to the company to make money. And in the academic environment, though, the real drive is discovery and innovation. And I really got to have fun with that. I also had thought a lot about my experiences at an undergraduate where I volunteered a lot, where I taught to high schoolers students, high school students, and Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts at U of M Dearborn, for they were on their surface to teach computer science topics, but to the university they were recruitment efforts, of course, but at these events, I really enjoyed getting to help people understand a topic that I was passionate about.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:08:59]: And so right after I entered this program, I started to teach right away because I was already familiar with U of M Dearborn's classes. They had a lot of trust in how successful I had been at my undergraduate level and really handed off my first lab that I had to teach. And pretty much from that moment, I was hooked because I found not only did I enjoy the research aspect, but I really enjoyed getting to teach. And I almost felt that that was more rewarding in the end. And so with this professor that I had, he really encouraged me to keep at discovering and practicing my teaching abilities as well. So I taught pretty much every semester that I had since I entered the PhD program. So almost for five years straight, I

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:38]: taught every semester Every grad student goes through a point in time where they say to themselves, am I good enough? Is this what I should be doing? And there's that feeling of imposter syndrome, feeling of inequity, feeling of as I said, I'm not good enough for this or I shouldn't be here, or should I be here. Did that ever happen to you? And I'm guessing it did at med school, but talk to me about that and how imposter syndrome or self doubt kind of reared its head for you as you were going through it and how did you handle it.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:10:08]: So for kind of those experiences, it was, I think most recently, and this one's probably a little bit easier to talk about, which is going to be my first paper in trying to transition from a PhD student to a PhD candidate with that qualification exam. In that case, I had really struggled to get my first paper published. My co advisor was really adamant that the work was sound and I didn't really believe him, mainly because every time we submitted to one of the top A level conferences, we would get negative feedback and they wouldn't believe that we had discovered this transfer learning between these two software engineering processes. And we had the data and I kept churning through it in my head. I kept rewriting the papers again and again for another conference and another conference and eventually we did get it published. But along that way I really questioned if this was for me, if I was doing things right or if I belonged here because I couldn't get acceptance at the professional level through that acceptance of your first conference paper. And it really hurt each time I get those really stinging rejections. And I suppose it really just took falling back on, is this what I wanted to do? And checking with the people that I trusted, my two advisors, particularly the one that I had at the undergraduate level, and talking with them and making sure that was I doing the right thing? Am I on a wrong base? Am I getting good results even if they're not being accepted? And along the way you really do doubt yourself.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:11:31]: And I think you need to find moments where things are, are good enough for you, where success in your own definitions rather than finding that exterior validation. And for me that really came from the classroom where even though at the research area or publication rate I wasn't getting that instant gratification, that instant success, but in the classroom I was so I was getting really great teaching evaluations, I was still getting positive feedback from students, seeing them succeed in the classroom and wanting to take other classes with me. And that really helped drive me to keep going ahead.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:04]: That goes back to that whole conversation of resiliency and having to push through and being able to know that you may get pushed down, that you got to get yourself back up and be able to kind of dust yourself off and keep moving forward. And every person, as you're going through graduate school, you have to wear a lot of hats. You got to balance things and you have to. Many graduate students are having to balance things like not only school, but work, family, personal responsibilities. While going through graduate school. How did you balance all of the hats that you had to wear as you were going through that process?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:12:37]: I guess there's one answer which is I still haven't figured it out. Even as a professor, there's so many hats that we wear all the time. But I would say that I was very honored and grateful for the opportunity U of M. Dearborn saw in me. And they gave me a scholarship so I didn't actually have to to work. I had given up my role in industry to go full time on my PhD and I had that graduate student instructor role at 50%. So as long as I taught two courses a semester, they funded my education, which was really great. I know that not everyone can benefit from that and it is a tremendous honor.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:13:10]: So that relieved a lot of pressure. So I was really left with sort of a couple hats there. I had to contribute with research and I had to contribute with teaching, and I had to contribute to still performing some service, which was recruitment efforts, small talks with other grad students in the lab, mentorship, things like that. And balancing those three things was extremely difficult. As a student, you want to, of course, spend all of your time writing the best research that you can, and your advisors are constantly pushing you to complete the work, to get it out and published. And in the meantime, you have 30 to 60 students constantly asking for your attention as yourself still a student. And that required learning new ways to deal with time management, becoming really comfortable with things don't have to be perfect, they have to be good enough. Which means that you want to deliver a high quality piece of work, but at the same time, if you spend too much of your effort refining it again and again and again until you think it's, it's 100% perfect, which nothing ever will be, then you've really lost all of that extra time you could have been spending on one of your other jobs.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:14:15]: And so I found through a computer science topic in Agile Project management, learning a little bit about Kanban boards and how to break up everything that I have to do into smaller tasks, basically write down how much time I think they'll take, move them through. Let's say today I'm going to take this route, this task. I'm going to work on it until it's completed and then once that's done, I can shift to another task, task and so on. And that really helped organize how I went about working and dealing with some of those issues of perfection. I mean, I just had to decide, was this task completed well enough that I could put it in the completed category. And kind of other little time management tricks that you learn over the years, how to deal with email and things like that really, really help with that needing to wear multiple hats issue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:57]: And as you were going through graduate school, you talked about the fact that you had a lot of support as you were going through there. And you do develop relationships with faculties and other, with faculty and students. And I guess as you were going through that, were there any other campus resources or student organizations that helped to support your success?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:15:17]: When I was an undergraduate at U of M, Dearborn, acm, the association for Computing Machinery, had a student chapter. And through there I made a lot of friends and connections and we worked together on quite a few projects. I mean, the friends that I met, we also took classes together. And so we would work on term projects well together and push forward there. But at the graduate level, I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways, there wasn't time for, for extracurriculars or student organizations. I was so overwhelmed with needing to do the teaching and the research that I wasn't able to participate as much as I wanted to in other campus activities. So I would say that I really fell back mostly upon my own lab group and the postdocs that were in the lab, learning from them, learning from the other undergraduate students, or learning from the other graduate students in that lab group, being able to bounce ideas off them, have them bounce ideas off me, which would of course make me think about new avenues, really helped. And so I really.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:16:12]: Learning the other people in your lab group, learning other students who are working on similar things to you can really be beneficial. And not only improving your own work, but then also being able to find those resources to help you find that resiliency as well. So if you see other people struggling with the same issues that you are struggling with publications or struggling in a class or struggling with a certain concept and you struggle with it together, you suddenly feel that, yeah, this is normal, you belong. It's just normal to have to fight

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:43]: through this and I guess as you think about not only your own graduate school experiences, but also your experience as a faculty member. Now, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education, whether it's in computer science, physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:17:01]: I would say make sure you're taking advantage of office hours and talking with your professor. Getting to know them is really critical for a great graduate education because once you've made connection, it's really easy to propose different research avenues or to be able to pursue different advanced topics through elective courses. I would say that a lot of things were what professors are looking for in terms of students are those that are curious, those that want to explore topics beyond the classroom. So going above and beyond, I think one of the best ways that you can do that is by taking a project in the class and not just meeting the requirements, but exceeding them. A couple of the students that I've worked with, with, I did never ask them to do some of the features that they added into some of these programs, but on their own initiative because they were curious and they wanted to do more and they wanted to show off. They went and learned a lot more than they had to outside of the classroom and ended up delivering just phenomenal work. So much so that I reached out and asked them if they were interested in doing research projects.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]: Well, Jeff, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and for talking to us about the ins and outs and ups and downs and kind of turns along the way that you went through to be able to get to where you are today. And I just want to say thank you and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Jeff Yackley [00:18:16]: You're very welcome. And thank you again for having me. It was an honor to be able to talk with you for a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:20]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UMFlint.Edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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For many students, the decision to pursue graduate school is not a straight path. It is a journey filled with uncertainty, exploration, self-discovery, and growth. In this episode of the podcast, listeners meet Maxwell Camara, whose story perfectly captures what it means to embrace the process of finding your purpose.

Max's journey did not begin in physical therapy. In fact, he originally started in engineering before eventually transitioning into kinesiology and discovering a passion for helping others heal through movement and rehabilitation. One of the strongest themes throughout this conversation is that it is okay not to have everything figured out right away. Max openly shares that even after applying to physical therapy school, he still was not completely certain it was the right fit. It was not until he became immersed in clinical experiences and hands-on patient care that he truly found confidence in his path.

Another key theme in the episode is the power of experiential learning. Max discusses how opportunities like the HEART Clinic at the University of Michigan-Flint helped shape his professional identity. Through direct patient interaction, leadership experiences, mentoring younger students, and even participating in research projects involving wearable technology, he was able to connect classroom knowledge to real-world impact. His experiences demonstrate that graduate school is about far more than lectures and exams—it is about applying what you learn to make a difference in people's lives.

The conversation also dives deeply into balance and resilience. Max speaks honestly about the challenges of transitioning from undergraduate coursework to the demands of doctoral-level education. He explains how treating graduate school like a full-time job, developing consistent routines, prioritizing exercise, and building a strong support system helped him maintain both academic success and personal well-being. His reflections on imposter syndrome are especially relatable, reminding listeners that self-doubt is common, but growth often happens when you push beyond your comfort zone.

For anyone considering graduate school, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement. Max emphasizes the importance of getting involved early, talking to professionals in the field, exploring hands-on opportunities, and truly understanding the profession before committing to a graduate program.

Whether you are considering physical therapy, another healthcare field, or graduate education in general, this episode is packed with authentic insights that will help you think more intentionally about your future. Max's story is a reminder that success is not always about having all the answers from the beginning—it is about being willing to learn, adapt, and keep moving forward.

TRANSCRIPT

1 00:00:03.310 --> 00:00:18.379 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to talk with you every week.

2 00:00:18.520 --> 00:00:23.449 Christopher Lewis: on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey.

3 00:00:23.750 --> 00:00:30.120 Christopher Lewis: Whether you're at the very beginning, just starting to think about, is grad school right for me? Or maybe you've…

4 00:00:30.560 --> 00:00:37.740 Christopher Lewis: decided, yep, I'm applying, or maybe you did apply, it got accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are.

5 00:00:37.940 --> 00:00:40.050 Christopher Lewis: You are truly on a journey.

6 00:00:40.450 --> 00:00:47.830 Christopher Lewis: And as you're going through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on.

7 00:00:47.980 --> 00:01:02.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have this conversation with you, to walk with you, to provide you with some tips and tricks and things that you can put into that toolbox that you bring with you everywhere.

8 00:01:03.210 --> 00:01:07.099 Christopher Lewis: That's why every week I also love being able to introduce you to new people.

9 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:20.450 Christopher Lewis: New people with different experiences that have all gone through what you're going through, and can provide you with some perspective, some things for you to think about, and maybe some things to implement for yourself.

10 00:01:21.410 --> 00:01:23.589 Christopher Lewis: Today we've got another great guest.

11 00:01:24.170 --> 00:01:26.190 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest.

12 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:29.190 Christopher Lewis: Is it Max or Maxwell? Which would… what do you go by?

13 00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:30.359 Maxwell Camara: Max is good.

14 00:01:32.650 --> 00:01:36.910 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Max Kamara is with us today.

15 00:01:37.130 --> 00:01:39.230 Christopher Lewis: Max is a…

16 00:01:40.210 --> 00:01:58.709 Christopher Lewis: Max is just finishing up his second year in the physical therapy program at the University of Michigan, Flint, working into his third year, gonna be finishing off this year. I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about the journey that he's been on, and to share that with you. Max, thanks so much for being here today.

17 00:01:59.100 --> 00:02:00.220 Maxwell Camara: Thank you for having me.

18 00:02:01.670 --> 00:02:13.849 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things that I love doing as we start these conversations is really turning the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, and at some point in that journey.

19 00:02:13.850 --> 00:02:23.960 Christopher Lewis: you made the decision. You made the decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to continue your education, and you wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring it back to that point, and what was going through your head?

20 00:02:24.330 --> 00:02:25.300 Maxwell Camara: Sure.

21 00:02:25.730 --> 00:02:36.020 Maxwell Camara: So actually, before I was a student at U of M Ann Arbor, I was a student at the University of Colorado my freshman year, and I studied engineering.

22 00:02:36.160 --> 00:02:40.730 Maxwell Camara: So, physical therapy was definitely not on the radar for quite some time.

23 00:02:41.080 --> 00:02:59.470 Maxwell Camara: So I think for me deciding to go to physical therapy school, a graduate school, it really was more of a slow burn, more of a process, and that really started once I was in Ann Arbor. So, once COVID had happened in 2020, I moved back to Michigan, so I went back to Michigan.

24 00:02:59.660 --> 00:03:10.739 Maxwell Camara: to finish out my school, I went into kinesiology knowing that I really enjoyed exercise, I had some good mentors, that taught me about the great things the body can do on its own to heal.

25 00:03:11.210 --> 00:03:18.059 Maxwell Camara: So… Physical therapy was one of those options, so I ended up joining the pre-PT club.

26 00:03:18.690 --> 00:03:31.689 Maxwell Camara: I was in that for a year, and then I became the service member, so I talked with a lot of the employers around the area, a lot of PTs, in Michigan, and then I eventually became the president of that club.

27 00:03:32.130 --> 00:03:33.909 Maxwell Camara: Interestingly, I would say.

28 00:03:34.190 --> 00:03:43.090 Maxwell Camara: even at that point, I was still pretty unsure if physical therapy was something I wanted to do, especially after finding more and more about it, so…

29 00:03:43.420 --> 00:03:52.019 Maxwell Camara: I think as we go through the conversation, maybe we can talk more about, you know, who should choose graduate school, maybe PT school specifically.

30 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:58.700 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up choosing it because I really love the exercise component, I wanted more out of,

31 00:03:58.860 --> 00:04:08.760 Maxwell Camara: my knowledge base, rather than just being, you know, a personal trainer or an exercise physiologist, I really saw value in helping people heal from these really

32 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:12.189 Maxwell Camara: Bad, severe conditions,

33 00:04:12.510 --> 00:04:18.640 Maxwell Camara: And then I end up applying, and here we are today, almost done graduating in a couple months here, so…

34 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:26.800 Christopher Lewis: Did I… did I mess up? Are you already in your third year? Didn't I said you were finishing your second?

35 00:04:27.590 --> 00:04:29.150 Maxwell Camara: I am in my third year, yes.

36 00:04:29.840 --> 00:04:30.570 Maxwell Camara: Okay.

37 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:38.719 Christopher Lewis: So, I'm gonna… I'm gonna have to go back and post, and I'll fix that. So, let me just… I'm gonna say something right now that I'm going to then…

38 00:04:39.350 --> 00:04:40.779 Christopher Lewis: put back. So…

39 00:04:42.210 --> 00:04:55.559 Christopher Lewis: Max is in his third year of physical therapy school at the University of Michigan, Flint, almost there, almost at the end, and gonna be graduating before we know it, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and to have him share his journey with you.

40 00:04:58.050 --> 00:05:08.420 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, one of the things you just said was that you didn't know. You didn't know whether or not physical therapy was really the right place for you. You started in engineering, very different path.

41 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.890 Christopher Lewis: Very different types of courses that you have to take, different way of thinking in that regard as well.

42 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:19.889 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about… journey for yourself. And…

43 00:05:20.330 --> 00:05:26.009 Christopher Lewis: You mentioned the fact that you really liked some of the sports aspect and the healing aspects.

44 00:05:26.190 --> 00:05:30.530 Christopher Lewis: But what was the tipping point for you, where you said to yourself, Yep.

45 00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:33.950 Christopher Lewis: I'm going to grad school, I'm doing physical therapy, versus…

46 00:05:34.300 --> 00:05:38.199 Christopher Lewis: I'm gonna finish at the Bachelor's, and I'm gonna go and do something else.

47 00:05:40.320 --> 00:05:45.749 Maxwell Camara: I think the tipping point… I decided that if I was gonna do it.

48 00:05:45.850 --> 00:05:47.390 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna do it now.

49 00:05:47.840 --> 00:05:56.610 Maxwell Camara: And I still, at that point, wasn't sure if it was the right decision. I wouldn't say I knew it was the right decision until probably about…

50 00:05:56.870 --> 00:06:08.189 Maxwell Camara: I would say, like, a year ago, so my second year of physical therapy school, once I had really started to get more involved in our pro bono clinic and finished my first clinical, was when I really knew

51 00:06:08.570 --> 00:06:09.460 Maxwell Camara: So…

52 00:06:09.940 --> 00:06:20.379 Maxwell Camara: that tipping point, I don't… I wouldn't say it was necessarily, you know, I knew in undergrad that I was gonna be a physical therapist. I knew that I was gonna give it a try and, you know.

53 00:06:21.130 --> 00:06:24.709 Maxwell Camara: I was gonna give it a try and be my best at it, no matter what I did.

54 00:06:25.290 --> 00:06:31.480 Maxwell Camara: But I knew I had this theoretical framework of what PT could, like, look like for me.

55 00:06:31.650 --> 00:06:43.250 Maxwell Camara: I had really dove into what PT was through the club, talking to a bunch of different schools and therapists, so I had a pretty good idea of what PT could be.

56 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:47.350 Maxwell Camara: But I still wouldn't say I was… I'm 100% sure.

57 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:53.790 Maxwell Camara: that PT was the right direction until I was actually in PT school, like, a couple years later.

58 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:01.049 Christopher Lewis: Now, I know that as you did decide to apply to graduate school.

59 00:07:01.260 --> 00:07:04.930 Christopher Lewis: I'm sure that you went through your own process of trying to figure out

60 00:07:05.210 --> 00:07:19.070 Christopher Lewis: what's the right program, what's the right fit, and where do I want to be? And with physical therapy being as competitive as it is, I'm sure you applied to numerous schools to be able to cover your bases and try to determine

61 00:07:19.520 --> 00:07:21.479 Christopher Lewis: Ultimately, where you would end up.

62 00:07:22.030 --> 00:07:25.240 Christopher Lewis: Now, you ended up coming to the University of Michigan, Flint.

63 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:36.910 Christopher Lewis: And I guess I want to go back to that point. Talk to me about that final decision process for yourself, and how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

64 00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:44.460 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so when I was applying, I applied to, I think, 6 schools, U of M Flint being one of them.

65 00:07:44.580 --> 00:07:55.709 Maxwell Camara: Obviously I was biased towards U of M Flint, because it had the U of M name. But I also applied to, I believe, 3 or 4 other schools in Michigan, and then 2 out of state.

66 00:07:56.140 --> 00:07:59.359 Maxwell Camara: So… I think that gave me more…

67 00:07:59.640 --> 00:08:12.479 Maxwell Camara: options to consider, as I was applying and just receiving, decisions through, I think it was December, so you apply around July, August, then you usually know where you're going by December.

68 00:08:12.860 --> 00:08:17.400 Maxwell Camara: So… What I was really looking for was a place where I…

69 00:08:17.500 --> 00:08:20.049 Maxwell Camara: I enjoyed the people that were there.

70 00:08:20.210 --> 00:08:22.629 Maxwell Camara: And then I thought I could…

71 00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:27.060 Maxwell Camara: Really thrive in terms of… there were a lot of hands-on opportunities.

72 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:44.759 Maxwell Camara: So U of M Flint checked off both those boxes, and when I received the decision, they gave me a call. It was actually one of my mentors, that I ended up working with through my second and third year, and she… she kind of sealed the deal. I didn't receive any sort of call or, like, any sort of…

73 00:08:44.860 --> 00:08:50.310 Maxwell Camara: I would say personalized message from any other school. So that kind of really is what sold me.

74 00:08:50.500 --> 00:08:53.440 Maxwell Camara: And then I also was able to visit,

75 00:08:53.630 --> 00:09:05.429 Maxwell Camara: with one of the students that was there at the time, and she kind of took me through the school, introduced me to everybody, I got to meet a lot of the students and actually talk to them. So I think that's what really…

76 00:09:05.550 --> 00:09:07.350 Maxwell Camara: Made the decision easier.

77 00:09:07.800 --> 00:09:13.489 Maxwell Camara: And then I also considered other things, like the location, so I could live at home and save money.

78 00:09:13.780 --> 00:09:18.170 Maxwell Camara: I considered things like the cost. It was one of the cheapest in the state.

79 00:09:18.400 --> 00:09:22.839 Maxwell Camara: And then I could also be more hands-on, so they had a really robust

80 00:09:23.100 --> 00:09:34.250 Maxwell Camara: clinical experience within the school that you could work at every Friday, which is something that I end up really taking advantage of, and I think has helped me be very successful in PT school.

81 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:48.289 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the hands-on experience, and you were talking about… we have a clinic called HEART, for those of you that don't know, and it is a pro bono clinic that is run by students, with faculty.

82 00:09:48.420 --> 00:10:00.110 Christopher Lewis: being there as well. Talk to me about that experience for yourself, and why was it so important for you to get involved with it, and why did you continue to stay involved with it throughout your experience at the University of Michigan-Flint?

83 00:10:00.770 --> 00:10:14.420 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I think a lot of students might take… take it for granted, that we have this clinic that has around 40 patients every week that we treat, and that's every week, so a lot of schools, I think, around half.

84 00:10:14.520 --> 00:10:21.510 Maxwell Camara: have some sort of clinic that they can work with, but it's not nearly as robust, it's not… it's not weekly, usually.

85 00:10:21.670 --> 00:10:37.939 Maxwell Camara: So we really have this cool opportunity to work with patients. And I really got involved, I think it was my first couple weeks, in something called Move More Walking. I just kind of went as that, you know, new student trying to figure out what was happening. A lot was happening, there's a lot of patients, there's paperwork, there's…

86 00:10:38.210 --> 00:10:49.109 Maxwell Camara: you know, you're working in groups with these patients with hard conditions to deal with, so most of them had strokes or traumatic brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, and you're trying to figure out what's happening, how can I even help?

87 00:10:49.580 --> 00:10:58.969 Maxwell Camara: So, eventually by… I believe it was my second or third semester, I talked to Dr. Amy York about potentially becoming a leader of that clinic.

88 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:00.650 Maxwell Camara: So I went…

89 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:07.519 Maxwell Camara: most of the weeks to… to that class to help these patients out. I really got close to a couple of them.

90 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:11.540 Maxwell Camara: So I decided to take on more of that leadership position.

91 00:11:11.770 --> 00:11:20.599 Maxwell Camara: So I worked with two other guys in my class to help lead this part of the clinic, and we… we really got to dive deep into how the…

92 00:11:20.710 --> 00:11:34.590 Maxwell Camara: the treatment works, so how do we standardize the treatment for every patient with new students coming in? So whether it's first year or second years, how can we maximize both the student experience and the patient experience? So that was something we worked on.

93 00:11:35.100 --> 00:11:45.930 Maxwell Camara: We also worked on a documentation system that was really easy to use, but also it was helpful in determining what was good for the following week for all the new students.

94 00:11:46.030 --> 00:11:48.809 Maxwell Camara: And then we also worked on research projects, so…

95 00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:50.670 Maxwell Camara: one of the ones that I…

96 00:11:50.880 --> 00:12:09.740 Maxwell Camara: lead was called Active Hearts, so we gave all of our stroke patients active, wearable technology, so things like Fitbits or Apple Watches they could wear outside of the clinic. So we could really track and maximize our outcomes with our patients trying to get better.

97 00:12:10.040 --> 00:12:18.689 Maxwell Camara: So, a lot of research I was doing, something I never considered doing, something I probably would have said I didn't want to do at the beginning of PT school.

98 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:36.400 Maxwell Camara: But it really opened a lot of doors in terms of meeting people, working on these really cool projects, traveling, presenting, working and mentoring the younger students. And I think that's what really has helped me grow into the PT that I'll become in, like, 14 weeks from now.

99 00:12:39.230 --> 00:12:58.650 Christopher Lewis: So, Max, I know that as you go into graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, business, whatever it might be, there's a transition that you make. There's a transition from undergrad and the way that you're taught in your undergraduate experience, and what you experience as a student in graduate school. And you've been able to find success in that journey.

100 00:12:58.940 --> 00:13:06.359 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… The things that you had to do as you were transitioning into graduate school.

101 00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:14.410 Christopher Lewis: That helped you find success. But also, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey?

102 00:13:15.660 --> 00:13:25.059 Maxwell Camara: I would say it's definitely a transition from undergrad to graduate school, especially as you're trying to get a doctoral degree. And in undergrad, I was able to…

103 00:13:25.250 --> 00:13:29.869 Maxwell Camara: Kind of passed by my classes studying, you know, in the last two weeks before an exam.

104 00:13:30.010 --> 00:13:31.960 Maxwell Camara: That does not work in PT school.

105 00:13:33.040 --> 00:13:41.090 Maxwell Camara: So I definitely had to transition into thinking more, you know, it's something you have to do weekly, almost every day, reviewing your stuff.

106 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.450 Maxwell Camara: Trying to be ready for the next day.

107 00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:45.410 Maxwell Camara: So, in terms of…

108 00:13:46.010 --> 00:13:52.160 Maxwell Camara: either studying, or homework or projects, I said I would treat it more as a full-time job.

109 00:13:52.350 --> 00:14:00.510 Maxwell Camara: So 40 hours a week, so around half that would be classes, and then the other half would be preparing for the next day, preparing for the week.

110 00:14:00.920 --> 00:14:10.680 Maxwell Camara: doing homework, working on projects, and then once I was at that, you know, 40-ish hours a week, I would… I gave myself other time to do other things, so…

111 00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:16.320 Maxwell Camara: Exercising, getting outside, just doing anything else that I enjoyed.

112 00:14:16.640 --> 00:14:23.300 Maxwell Camara: So, still finding that balance, but really making sure I put in the specific time to review stuff.

113 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:34.650 Maxwell Camara: In different ways, too, so I would do a lot of whiteboarding in grad school, something I never did in undergrad. So things like drawing out the big ideas, so what's your diagnosis? What sort of…

114 00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:48.320 Maxwell Camara: Signs and symptoms are you going to see? What sort of tests are you using? What's the intervention look like? What does the actual person look like? Rather than just memorizing certain facts like you might do in a lot of your classes in undergrad.

115 00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:54.759 Christopher Lewis: Now, you just talked about the fact that

116 00:14:55.130 --> 00:14:59.050 Christopher Lewis: There's a lot of hats that you wear when you're in graduate school.

117 00:14:59.420 --> 00:15:16.610 Christopher Lewis: Not only are you a student, you're a friend, you're a family member, you are… as I said, you're wearing lots of hats. And as you said earlier, one of the things that you thought of when you thought of looking… working… or when you thought of going to the University of Michigan-Flint was that you could live at home.

118 00:15:16.940 --> 00:15:21.020 Christopher Lewis: And then there's that draw from your family of, hey, come on back.

119 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:37.639 Christopher Lewis: So talk to me about balance, and how did you find that balance for yourself? What did you have to do to find that balance for yourself, where you were balancing school, work, family, or other personal responsibilities while you were going through this graduate school experience?

120 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:56.290 Maxwell Camara: Balance is hard. It took me a while to figure it out. I would say maybe even two to three semesters in wasn't until I really figured out how to have that balance. So I think it's okay to not really understand, you know, where… how to do it, how to balance jobs and family and school.

121 00:15:56.390 --> 00:16:01.129 Maxwell Camara: But the way I found it was really framing it as that 40-hour work week.

122 00:16:01.310 --> 00:16:10.009 Maxwell Camara: And then making sure I had the routine in place. So something I knew I wanted to always have through PT school was a consistent exercise schedule.

123 00:16:10.350 --> 00:16:11.810 Maxwell Camara: So, going to the gym.

124 00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:20.950 Maxwell Camara: two to four times a week, and not making any excuses not to go. So that really helps to, you know, reset my mind, and be ready for…

125 00:16:21.060 --> 00:16:23.360 Maxwell Camara: The other hours that I had to put in that day.

126 00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:31.409 Maxwell Camara: So just having that routine helped shape that balance. Also having a good support system, so I was able to find some great

127 00:16:31.610 --> 00:16:39.740 Maxwell Camara: friends, and I have good family that were able to support me in terms of, you know, if I'm struggling, I can ask them questions. If they're struggling, I can help them.

128 00:16:39.900 --> 00:16:41.169 Maxwell Camara: I also…

129 00:16:41.540 --> 00:16:49.479 Maxwell Camara: you know, can talk to people about other things going on. So just making sure I had that community in place, and then still having…

130 00:16:49.650 --> 00:16:56.190 Maxwell Camara: my routine, and then once I had that set, I could build on top of that as I went through school, is what really…

131 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:58.430 Maxwell Camara: Made it a little bit easier.

132 00:17:00.410 --> 00:17:08.460 Christopher Lewis: Now, I talk to graduate students all the time, and as they typically go into graduate school, they're…

133 00:17:08.800 --> 00:17:17.739 Christopher Lewis: Many times is that feeling of imposter syndrome that creeps in, that self-doubt that rears its head.

134 00:17:18.040 --> 00:17:23.389 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about how that impacted you in graduate school, and how did you handle it?

135 00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:35.980 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, I think it's one of those tough subjects where we work really hard to be, you know, the best we can at this job, but there's still that doubt of if we're actually helping anybody.

136 00:17:36.580 --> 00:17:41.729 Maxwell Camara: So, I think… I'm lucky, I really love what I do.

137 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:47.159 Maxwell Camara: Because I've been able to see the change that it makes for people, just as a student.

138 00:17:47.330 --> 00:17:48.320 Maxwell Camara: So…

139 00:17:48.800 --> 00:17:58.239 Maxwell Camara: I'd really encourage anybody going into grad school or PT school to take advantage of these real opportunities in their field. So, for me, it was more…

140 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:03.010 Maxwell Camara: Of those heart opportunities, so doing the research, being in the clinic,

141 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:07.600 Maxwell Camara: That's what really helped me see the big changes for people.

142 00:18:07.990 --> 00:18:13.300 Maxwell Camara: So, being able to see the change, plus really putting in the hard work, and really…

143 00:18:13.770 --> 00:18:17.150 Maxwell Camara: Going beyond what was expected of me was…

144 00:18:17.340 --> 00:18:21.390 Maxwell Camara: Kind of helped me get past that idea of imposter syndrome.

145 00:18:21.790 --> 00:18:26.360 Maxwell Camara: You know what, even in the clinic today, as I'm still…

146 00:18:26.550 --> 00:18:33.169 Maxwell Camara: trying to graduate, I still have some of those days where it's, you know, starts to creep in and I feel like I'm not really helping them.

147 00:18:33.580 --> 00:18:35.220 Maxwell Camara: And I think the best way that…

148 00:18:35.370 --> 00:18:38.920 Maxwell Camara: I've been able to get over that, is that things just take time.

149 00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:46.060 Maxwell Camara: We're only seeing these patients for a really small percentage of their entire week, so there's other things happening.

150 00:18:46.340 --> 00:18:50.930 Maxwell Camara: But if you give it patience and time, and you put in the, you know, your best effort.

151 00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:56.920 Maxwell Camara: A lot of the time, you're gonna see these really cool changes, and they're gonna come at the least expected time.

152 00:18:57.360 --> 00:18:59.950 Maxwell Camara: So I think that's what has really helped me with

153 00:19:00.350 --> 00:19:04.239 Maxwell Camara: imposter syndrome and feel like I just can't, or I wouldn't be able to do it.

154 00:19:07.550 --> 00:19:13.149 Christopher Lewis: And one of the things that I know when you go through a program like physical therapy is one of the

155 00:19:13.600 --> 00:19:21.059 Christopher Lewis: One of the things that really allows for you to be able to take everything that you're learning and putting it into

156 00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:24.250 Christopher Lewis: Reality is going out on those clinicals.

157 00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:29.190 Christopher Lewis: And I know you're currently in clinicals right now, in your third year.

158 00:19:29.950 --> 00:19:32.600 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about… the…

159 00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:40.479 Christopher Lewis: What those clinicals have done for you to be able to help you to see the future that you see for yourself in this profession?

160 00:19:41.900 --> 00:19:50.430 Maxwell Camara: Yeah, so I was pretty intentional with the choices I made for my clinicals. The first one I did was in the hospital.

161 00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:53.949 Maxwell Camara: And I'll admit, it wasn't something I was super interested in.

162 00:19:54.140 --> 00:19:59.050 Maxwell Camara: Because I know it's a little bit more of a challenger, or a challenging setting.

163 00:19:59.260 --> 00:20:09.950 Maxwell Camara: But I ended up enjoying it more than I thought I would. So just being able to see PT work in all these different settings and different populations is very… it's very cool to see.

164 00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:14.430 Maxwell Camara: So I encourage any graduate student to really

165 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:22.510 Maxwell Camara: you know, branch out. So I enjoy orthopedic settings, but I also wanted to see every other setting while I was a student.

166 00:20:22.620 --> 00:20:27.880 Maxwell Camara: to get the best mentoring I could, in this short 9-month period.

167 00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:36.070 Maxwell Camara: So I had the hospital setting, I'm at one now that's more of an outpatient neuro setting, then I have one that's a sports setting.

168 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:38.930 Maxwell Camara: And that was set up so that I could keep building.

169 00:20:39.140 --> 00:20:41.820 Maxwell Camara: Off of what… off of the last one.

170 00:20:42.340 --> 00:20:50.710 Maxwell Camara: And really challenged myself with different populations and things that I saw, even if it wasn't something I was necessarily super interested in.

171 00:20:51.150 --> 00:20:55.910 Maxwell Camara: So, setting yourself up for success. So, I did an interview for my last one.

172 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.689 Maxwell Camara: I was able to talk to faculty, And figure out which…

173 00:20:59.900 --> 00:21:14.079 Maxwell Camara: clinicals they thought were… might be better than others, maybe if they had known some of the clinical instructors. So just getting an idea of what would… might work for me before I actually selected these clinicals was very helpful.

174 00:21:14.540 --> 00:21:16.390 Maxwell Camara: And then in terms of after.

175 00:21:16.500 --> 00:21:18.580 Maxwell Camara: It just gives you a really big…

176 00:21:19.490 --> 00:21:26.879 Maxwell Camara: You know, more experience to draw from as you're either getting a job, looking for jobs, or maybe, you know, starting something on your own.

177 00:21:27.030 --> 00:21:33.230 Maxwell Camara: So, trying the thing, and if you don't like it, move on, but maybe you do like it, and it's just another option for you.

178 00:21:36.370 --> 00:21:45.209 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's physical therapy, or business, or something completely different.

179 00:21:45.930 --> 00:21:48.539 Christopher Lewis: And you think back to the experience that you've had.

180 00:21:49.070 --> 00:21:54.890 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

181 00:21:58.060 --> 00:22:02.879 Maxwell Camara: That's a tough one, because graduate school's becoming more expensive.

182 00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:07.539 Maxwell Camara: And a lot of the jobs maybe aren't necessarily matching that with salary.

183 00:22:07.970 --> 00:22:15.380 Maxwell Camara: So I would say really get involved in undergrad with… if you're thinking about grad school in that, you know, specific field.

184 00:22:15.540 --> 00:22:21.519 Maxwell Camara: So for me, PT, I would join the pre-PT club and learn as much as you can through that club.

185 00:22:21.880 --> 00:22:29.809 Maxwell Camara: Maybe if you're thinking of other professions, join the PA club, join the, you know, any sort of medical club, so if you're thinking about med school.

186 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.359 Maxwell Camara: So just learn about as many things as you can while you're an undergrad.

187 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:41.790 Maxwell Camara: shadow all these different settings before you go into PT school, make sure it's something that you think you'd really thrive in before you sign up for it.

188 00:22:42.060 --> 00:22:56.379 Maxwell Camara: And talk to the people that are actually doing it. So, maybe that's a student, maybe that's the faculty, and just see, is this, you know, something I would enjoy? Are the students enjoying what they're doing? Is it, you know, could I see myself here in 2 years?

189 00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:14.989 Christopher Lewis: Well, Max, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, and I'm really looking forward to seeing you as you get ready to finish up here, and the future that it holds for you as well, and I truly wish you all the best.

190 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:16.509 Maxwell Camara: Great, thanks for having me.

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*]:pointer-events-auto R6Vx5W_threadScrollVars scroll-mb-[calc(var(--scroll-root-safe-area-inset-bottom,0px)+var(--thread-response-height))] scroll-mt-[calc(var(--header-height)+min(200px,max(70px,20svh)))]" dir="auto" data-turn-id= "request-WEB:b97d1e6a-7417-433c-8520-25a826ef893b-0" data-turn-id-container= "request-WEB:b97d1e6a-7417-433c-8520-25a826ef893b-0" data-testid= "conversation-turn-2" data-scroll-anchor="false" data-turn= "assistant"> In this episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, listeners are taken on an honest and insightful journey through the graduate school experience with Steve Wilson. From the very beginning of the conversation, one theme stands out clearly: graduate school is not simply about earning another degree—it is about growth, discovery, and learning how to navigate uncertainty.

Steve shares how a summer undergraduate research opportunity completely changed the direction of his life. What began as a simple invitation from a professor turned into a passion for research and ultimately led him toward a PhD. His story highlights something many students may not realize: graduate education can open doors that once felt impossible, especially when students learn about opportunities like fully funded doctoral programs.

Steve encourages students to think deeply about why they want to pursue graduate school and what they hope to gain from the experience. Rather than simply "checking the box" for another credential, he emphasizes taking ownership of the journey—seeking out projects, building relationships, exploring research opportunities, and connecting classroom learning to long-term career goals.

Steve openly reflects on the challenges of adapting from undergraduate coursework to the expectations of doctoral-level research. He speaks honestly about moments of uncertainty, the value of mentorship, and how important it was to build friendships and maintain personal connections outside of academia. His reflections remind listeners that success in graduate school is not just about intelligence or hard work; it is also about community, self-awareness, and resilience.

One especially powerful takeaway from the episode is the reminder that preparation matters. Steve discusses how reading research papers, learning trends within a field, and connecting with others already in graduate programs can help students feel more confident before they even step into their first class.

Whether you are just beginning to think about graduate school, currently applying, or already deep into your academic journey, this episode offers practical advice and encouragement that can help you move forward with confidence. Steve's story is relatable, thoughtful, and filled with wisdom for anyone considering what comes next in their educational and professional path.

If you are looking for inspiration, real-world advice, and an honest look at graduate education, this is an episode you will not want to miss.

TRANSCRIPT

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1 00:00:03.260 --> 00:00:19.929 Christopher Lewis: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey.

2 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:33.039 Christopher Lewis: Whether you are at the very beginning, and you're starting to think about, well, maybe I want to do this grad school thing, or maybe you've applied, and you're waiting for that answer, or you've already gotten your answer, and you're accepted, and you're going to be starting classes soon.

3 00:00:33.120 --> 00:00:43.290 Christopher Lewis: Or, maybe you're in a graduate program, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. There are things that you can do today, right now.

4 00:00:43.430 --> 00:00:50.749 Christopher Lewis: That you can work on to help you to be able to find success in this graduate school journey.

5 00:00:50.830 --> 00:01:05.529 Christopher Lewis: And that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to have the opportunity to be able to work with you, to introduce you to people that have gone before you, gone to graduate school, found success in their own ways.

6 00:01:05.760 --> 00:01:10.280 Christopher Lewis: And then you can learn from what they learned along the way as well.

7 00:01:10.360 --> 00:01:31.270 Christopher Lewis: Today, we've got another great guest. Dr. Steve Wilson is with us today, and Dr. Wilson is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint in our College of Innovation and Technology, and I'm really excited to be able to have him here, and for him to talk a little bit more about his own experience, and to introduce him to you.

8 00:01:31.650 --> 00:01:33.569 Christopher Lewis: Steve, thanks so much for being here today.

9 00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:35.429 Steve Wilson: Yeah, thanks for having me.

10 00:01:36.250 --> 00:01:52.029 Christopher Lewis: You know, I'm really excited to be able to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations really turning the clock back in time, because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Taylor, at Taylor University, and when you were there.

11 00:01:52.030 --> 00:01:57.120 Christopher Lewis: there was a point. There was a point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done.

12 00:01:57.270 --> 00:01:58.669 Christopher Lewis: I want to continue.

13 00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:04.869 Christopher Lewis: Bring me back to that point, and what was going through your head as you made that decision for yourself?

14 00:02:06.410 --> 00:02:14.000 Steve Wilson: Yeah, great question. So I think it was a series of events that led me there.

15 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:19.329 Steve Wilson: which started with research. I mean, that's, I think, what led me to this whole thing.

16 00:02:19.570 --> 00:02:23.810 Steve Wilson: I had a great opportunity to be involved in a summer research project.

17 00:02:23.930 --> 00:02:25.669 Steve Wilson: while I was working at Taylor.

18 00:02:26.020 --> 00:02:33.089 Steve Wilson: We were kind of working with a company there on some things, and, you know, it was just, one of my professors.

19 00:02:33.730 --> 00:02:40.900 Steve Wilson: at some point in the semester, said, hey, Steve, are you working on anything this summer? We've got this interesting research project, you might be a good fit.

20 00:02:41.280 --> 00:02:49.669 Steve Wilson: And I thought it sounded like something fun to try, so I did that, and throughout that summer, I kind of

21 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:52.199 Steve Wilson: Fell in love with research, you could say.

22 00:02:54.250 --> 00:03:00.219 Steve Wilson: I just really loved the idea of… in contrast to what my coursework felt like, where it was more…

23 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:13.840 Steve Wilson: We know the answer, we know you can get here, let's figure out how to do that. Research was, we don't really know what the answer is. We don't know if there is an answer, but we're gonna try this because we think this is an important thing to work on.

24 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:20.080 Steve Wilson: And I really loved working on those kind of projects, And…

25 00:03:20.220 --> 00:03:25.710 Steve Wilson: I think that went well. And I started asking more about how

26 00:03:26.510 --> 00:03:29.539 Steve Wilson: I could get more involved in research, and…

27 00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:36.340 Steve Wilson: my professor said, why did… did you think about going to grad school? Maybe you could do a PhD, and I said.

28 00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:41.810 Steve Wilson: I don't have any more money. You know, undergrad is kind of the end of the line for me, I need to go get a job.

29 00:03:42.250 --> 00:03:49.179 Steve Wilson: And that's when I learned the thing I think everyone should know, you know, especially in STEM,

30 00:03:49.690 --> 00:04:03.340 Steve Wilson: almost any PhD program that you'll go to is fully funded, which means maybe you're not making as much as you would for an industry job, but tuition's covered, health insurance is covered, and you have a stipend that's, you know, enough to live off of.

31 00:04:03.730 --> 00:04:12.610 Steve Wilson: And so that knowledge itself kind of flipped everything for me, where I realized it was a… financially, it was an option in the first place. And I wouldn't have known, I'd…

32 00:04:12.720 --> 00:04:15.290 Steve Wilson: Always assumed PhD was something…

33 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:31.260 Steve Wilson: kind of out of reach for me, personally, just because of my situation, but learning that, you know, it could be financially possible, learning that it was actually very research-focused, it wasn't just, I would be going to take 5 more years of courses.

34 00:04:31.340 --> 00:04:37.520 Steve Wilson: Which is kind of what I had assumed it was when you did a PhD, you just took really hard courses the whole time.

35 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:46.530 Steve Wilson: But it's not that. It really is almost like an apprenticeship learning how to do research, with a little bit of coursework in there as well.

36 00:04:46.860 --> 00:04:50.740 Steve Wilson: And that sounded really appealing to me, so that was…

37 00:04:50.990 --> 00:04:55.480 Steve Wilson: Kind of my final year of undergrad that this all started happening.

38 00:04:55.810 --> 00:04:59.639 Steve Wilson: And I started looking at schools, I started applying,

39 00:05:01.170 --> 00:05:07.709 Steve Wilson: probably still could have prepared better and learned more, but, you know, I put out my best shot and,

40 00:05:08.850 --> 00:05:12.730 Steve Wilson: started applying for PhD programs, basically, right from there.

41 00:05:12.990 --> 00:05:15.959 Steve Wilson: And that was how that decision came to be.

42 00:05:16.870 --> 00:05:29.119 Christopher Lewis: And I know you made the decision, finally, to attend the University of Michigan for a PhD program, and in that PhD program, you received both a master's and a PhD.

43 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:44.190 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about that decision-making process for yourself, because you said you started looking at programs. So, what did you do in that process for yourself, and what was it about the University of Michigan that made you decide that that was the right program for you?

44 00:05:45.670 --> 00:05:53.080 Steve Wilson: Right, okay, so… During my undergrad, I got… Pretty interested in…

45 00:05:55.640 --> 00:06:01.769 Steve Wilson: The combination slash overlap between computer science and psychology or cognitive science.

46 00:06:01.870 --> 00:06:10.100 Steve Wilson: Because I had actually started out a psychology major during my undergrad. Psychology pre-med, actually, and then…

47 00:06:10.250 --> 00:06:20.780 Steve Wilson: for various reasons, ended up switching to computer science. But I had still always been super interested in the aspects of human behavior, how people interact, cognition, things like that.

48 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:28.519 Steve Wilson: So I was super interested in that as a starting point, and I think that led a lot of my search for

49 00:06:28.760 --> 00:06:30.549 Steve Wilson: Who are the people

50 00:06:30.780 --> 00:06:50.509 Steve Wilson: working at that intersection, who would be doing something related to computer science, but also where I'd be able to do something related to psychology or cognitive science. So, I just started looking around online to see where are these researchers who are doing this kind of stuff, and I found some amazing people all around the world doing really cool things.

51 00:06:50.910 --> 00:06:55.150 Steve Wilson: And… Started looking at…

52 00:06:55.350 --> 00:07:06.179 Steve Wilson: the PhD programs where they were taking students, and that kind of gave me a short list of potential programs, to apply for, where I thought.

53 00:07:06.530 --> 00:07:15.120 Steve Wilson: This is research I'd be super excited about working on. If I was able to be fortunate to get a position working with any of these people, I would be pretty happy.

54 00:07:15.550 --> 00:07:19.830 Steve Wilson: And that would kind of allow me to build off of the background that I had.

55 00:07:20.330 --> 00:07:27.260 Steve Wilson: And… One of those programs was the University of Michigan, I…

56 00:07:28.220 --> 00:07:37.390 Steve Wilson: applied to the program. I… I think another criteria, in addition, which Michigan has, which was a funding guarantee.

57 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:45.949 Steve Wilson: Which is something I talked about before, but, you know, the financials were a big thing for me. And not every school has the same kind of funding guarantee.

58 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:55.579 Steve Wilson: University of Michigan had a 5-year guaranteed funding for all PhD students who were admitted into the College of Engineering, which was pretty appealing to me.

59 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:00.820 Steve Wilson: To know that I would be able to make good progress and not have to worry about

60 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:14.529 Steve Wilson: funding. And a number of other schools had similar programs that I kind of exclusively applied to those kind of programs who also had faculty, were working in this type of intersection area, and…

61 00:08:14.600 --> 00:08:23.440 Steve Wilson: I think I eventually ended up going for in-person interviews at 3 or 4 universities.

62 00:08:25.030 --> 00:08:35.010 Steve Wilson: they all felt great when I was there, and I think U of M was the last one, so sometimes I wonder if there was a recency bias there, but each one, I think, impressed me more than the previous one.

63 00:08:35.250 --> 00:08:42.400 Steve Wilson: But I really felt… that I could connect and relate to the students when I visited.

64 00:08:42.510 --> 00:08:46.209 Steve Wilson: In a way that felt different from some of the other places.

65 00:08:46.580 --> 00:08:55.659 Steve Wilson: And there were not just one faculty, but a number of different faculty at the University of Michigan who I felt were very strong in the areas I was interested in.

66 00:08:56.250 --> 00:09:11.639 Steve Wilson: So, I felt that that was also very safe to have as a, you know, what if somebody leaves, or what if it doesn't work out with a certain faculty member? I felt pretty confident that I would be able to find someone that I was happy working with for…

67 00:09:12.320 --> 00:09:15.599 Steve Wilson: You know, 5 or 6 years on research.

68 00:09:15.740 --> 00:09:22.240 Steve Wilson: And I'm also… grew up in Michigan, so, there was that pull to be…

69 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:30.469 Steve Wilson: within driving distance of home and things like that was nice. So all of those things kind of converged to make it feel like it was the right decision.

70 00:09:32.570 --> 00:09:46.629 Christopher Lewis: So, in transitioning into a graduate program, there is always a transition, because the way in which you're educated at an undergraduate level is typically different than what you're being asked to do at a graduate level.

71 00:09:46.810 --> 00:10:04.400 Christopher Lewis: the rigor is different, the expectations in the classroom are going to be different, and you do have to go through a transition for yourself to be able to find that groove and find that… that ability to be able to understand, okay, what am I being expected to do, and how can I best do that? So.

72 00:10:04.590 --> 00:10:09.200 Christopher Lewis: You were able to find success in this journey that you went on.

73 00:10:10.110 --> 00:10:16.820 Christopher Lewis: What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program?

74 00:10:17.180 --> 00:10:24.620 Christopher Lewis: And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

75 00:10:27.250 --> 00:10:35.130 Steve Wilson: this isn't good, repeatable advice, but I think I got very lucky a few times, especially at the beginning, because I think I actually…

76 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:47.370 Steve Wilson: didn't prepare in the best way possible. I don't think I fully understood what a PhD program was, to be honest, when I started. I knew it was about research, I knew I was gonna be working on

77 00:10:47.500 --> 00:10:50.320 Steve Wilson: interesting stuff, and I was very excited about it.

78 00:10:50.760 --> 00:10:55.759 Steve Wilson: But… I still don't think I fully understood what it meant to…

79 00:10:56.110 --> 00:11:10.890 Steve Wilson: do a dissertation, and really get involved in this longer-term, not just a summer research position, but, you know, really trying to make a contribution, sustained contribution in a field, and what went into that, and how do you prepare yourself as a

80 00:11:11.340 --> 00:11:14.229 Steve Wilson: Developing into a researcher from someone who's

81 00:11:15.050 --> 00:11:19.879 Steve Wilson: Been used to being handed assignments for things and studying for exams and all of that.

82 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:26.620 Steve Wilson: I think I could have prepared a lot more, probably by talking to more people

83 00:11:27.150 --> 00:11:34.150 Steve Wilson: in PhD programs, or who had gone through similar experiences, or finding… there are actually tons of great resources online, which I…

84 00:11:34.340 --> 00:11:37.020 Steve Wilson: I'm not sure I knew even what to search for.

85 00:11:37.130 --> 00:11:41.849 Steve Wilson: when I was an undergraduate, but a lot of people who have written about their experiences,

86 00:11:41.950 --> 00:11:44.759 Steve Wilson: Through blog posts or other things like that, which…

87 00:11:44.970 --> 00:11:51.250 Steve Wilson: I only found later and thought, this… wow, this would have been really… valuable to me early on.

88 00:11:51.800 --> 00:11:56.749 Steve Wilson: so some of it was learning as I was going, and then some of it was,

89 00:11:57.260 --> 00:12:06.249 Steve Wilson: you know, as I mentioned, the luck thing, I think, comes into play with my own advisor, who was not actually at the University of Michigan when I applied.

90 00:12:06.440 --> 00:12:11.629 Steve Wilson: So I made that comment about there being several faculty that I thought I might work with.

91 00:12:11.790 --> 00:12:14.170 Steve Wilson: The person I ended up working with wasn't one of them.

92 00:12:14.650 --> 00:12:23.210 Steve Wilson: And… She actually started the same semester I did, coming from another institution, and was a new faculty member.

93 00:12:23.520 --> 00:12:33.580 Steve Wilson: And the way I remember it, it was, she sent an email to the new PhD student saying there was a project related to computer science and psychology and language and…

94 00:12:34.120 --> 00:12:44.349 Steve Wilson: if anyone's interested in that kind of research, to come talk to her. And that was, you know, as I described before, kind of exactly the thing I was interested in, so I…

95 00:12:44.750 --> 00:12:46.470 Steve Wilson: Set up a meeting.

96 00:12:46.860 --> 00:13:02.990 Steve Wilson: We started kind of tentatively working on something, and then that became my entire dissertation. So, in some ways, I feel like I stumbled into that path, which is what ended up working very well for me, in the long run. But if I…

97 00:13:03.660 --> 00:13:22.249 Steve Wilson: if I would give advice to people, it probably wouldn't be just go somewhere and hope you find the best advisor by chance. It would be do your homework beforehand and figure out what it looks like to be a student in their lab, even looking at some of the trajectories of their own, you know, the other students who work in that research lab and things like that.

98 00:13:22.590 --> 00:13:28.360 Steve Wilson: Other things to be successful, I think, was…

99 00:13:28.810 --> 00:13:31.079 Steve Wilson: I, I really do think,

100 00:13:31.610 --> 00:13:36.440 Steve Wilson: My undergrad education at Taylor prepared me fairly well for a lot of the…

101 00:13:36.770 --> 00:13:42.649 Steve Wilson: CS coursework. I think there was a good, solid technical background that I had.

102 00:13:42.790 --> 00:13:51.809 Steve Wilson: I found grad school, especially at University of Michigan, to have a bigger emphasis on some of the, like, math and theory components.

103 00:13:51.970 --> 00:13:55.579 Steve Wilson: of the field of computer science, which I…

104 00:13:55.730 --> 00:13:57.409 Steve Wilson: Had to do some catching up.

105 00:13:58.060 --> 00:14:00.510 Steve Wilson: I would say, but I think you…

106 00:14:01.380 --> 00:14:03.360 Steve Wilson: I think the undergraduate degree is…

107 00:14:03.500 --> 00:14:14.410 Steve Wilson: maybe this is kind of cliche, but it's learning how to learn about things on your own, and I feel like I was kind of able to get that to the point that if there were things that were thrown at me in my master's, that

108 00:14:14.920 --> 00:14:16.500 Steve Wilson: May have been a gap.

109 00:14:16.660 --> 00:14:23.570 Steve Wilson: I kind of had the ability to identify that and do a little bit of self-study to catch up.

110 00:14:23.670 --> 00:14:44.940 Steve Wilson: or rely on other classmates, you know, make some friends, study together, that kind of thing, and get through some of that coursework, which was definitely challenging at times for the… you know, this was for the master's component of my program, where you… you did the coursework that would be involved in a master's during the first two years of your PhD, while you're also getting started with your research.

111 00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:51.020 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, there were some… Challenges there, just getting used to,

112 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:55.730 Steve Wilson: Maybe a different level of courses and having some of those different areas covered.

113 00:14:55.950 --> 00:15:04.410 Steve Wilson: But yeah, I think those are some of the things. I don't know, yeah.

114 00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:07.300 Steve Wilson: Maybe that… I'll leave it there for now.

115 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:16.210 Christopher Lewis: I guess as you look back, you've gotten through the master's and the doctorate, you went to do a postdoc as well, and you continue to do that.

116 00:15:16.730 --> 00:15:25.930 Christopher Lewis: If you could go back in time prior to starting in the master's degree, how would you prepare academically or professionally before starting graduate school?

117 00:15:27.970 --> 00:15:34.229 Steve Wilson: for my PhD, I think, like, before, yeah, PhD or Master's,

118 00:15:35.690 --> 00:15:41.770 Steve Wilson: maybe getting a bit more immersed in the research, the field that I was getting into from a…

119 00:15:42.500 --> 00:15:48.250 Steve Wilson: What's happening now perspective, not the historic, fundamental stuff, which is covered in your courses, but…

120 00:15:48.570 --> 00:15:57.739 Steve Wilson: I don't know if I would have been able to convince myself to do this, but if I could have spent the summer before reading a lot of research papers, for example, that were kind of the core

121 00:15:57.940 --> 00:16:03.469 Steve Wilson: pieces, or very recent trends. Because there was a lot to learn about

122 00:16:03.890 --> 00:16:12.139 Steve Wilson: Not what has this field been like for… in 50… the past 50 years, but especially in the past 2 or 3 years, what are the trends, what's going on?

123 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:17.009 Steve Wilson: getting used to being able to read a research paper, I think, is one of those things that

124 00:16:17.400 --> 00:16:29.960 Steve Wilson: takes practice. It's almost like an exercise, mental muscle type of thing, more so than a thing you can just teach, here's how to read a research paper. Obviously, there are some tips, but really, you have to do it. You just have to do it.

125 00:16:30.880 --> 00:16:37.479 Steve Wilson: looking at, talks from people, which are often posted online, like, on YouTube, from leaders in the field.

126 00:16:37.690 --> 00:16:41.959 Steve Wilson: Hearing what they have to say, what people are writing about, to get…

127 00:16:42.100 --> 00:16:46.150 Steve Wilson: very involved in some of that, and then…

128 00:16:46.300 --> 00:16:56.739 Steve Wilson: Yeah, if there are topics that would be background, if you were pivoting toward a different field for your graduate degree, I know that's fairly common, where I would see people from

129 00:16:57.930 --> 00:17:10.289 Steve Wilson: a range of other fields who want to do a master's in computer science, for example. I had classmates who had backgrounds all the way through music. I knew someone who's a music undergrad and then did CS masters, or sometimes people do a bit of a shift.

130 00:17:10.440 --> 00:17:11.790 Steve Wilson: So…

131 00:17:11.900 --> 00:17:19.989 Steve Wilson: a little bit of self-study, I think, on some of those concepts that are used across a lot of courses. For me, I actually did do a little bit of…

132 00:17:22.099 --> 00:17:28.330 Steve Wilson: study of some math concepts in the summer before, that I felt like I needed to catch up on.

133 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:36.420 Steve Wilson: So those kind of things, but I think if you can hit the ground running, kind of having a good sense of where is this field

134 00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:38.290 Steve Wilson: at right now.

135 00:17:38.540 --> 00:17:47.060 Steve Wilson: Even if you don't understand all of it, but knowing the trends, not in just a buzzword way, but what are people who are working on this actually talking about it can be…

136 00:17:47.300 --> 00:17:51.350 Steve Wilson: extremely helpful for, like, getting kickstart as a researcher.

137 00:17:54.480 --> 00:18:02.289 Christopher Lewis: And as you just go into a doctorate program, and you are moving into that next phase of your life.

138 00:18:04.060 --> 00:18:20.899 Christopher Lewis: how… there takes a… there's a lot of things that you have to balance, and a lot of hats that you have to wear. You're not only a student, but you are a… you're still… you are… you're still a son, you're a… you could be… you have a significant other, there's lots of different things that you have to juggle.

139 00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:30.579 Christopher Lewis: Talk to me about balance for yourself, and how did you balance school with work and family and personal responsibilities while you were going through that graduate school process?

140 00:18:31.260 --> 00:18:34.170 Steve Wilson: Yeah, definitely a big challenge.

141 00:18:34.750 --> 00:18:43.020 Steve Wilson: because it is a… it's a thing, you can kind of give as much time as… as you want to it, right? Like, there's always more you can do.

142 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:48.129 Steve Wilson: When you're in one of these graduate programs, I think, or more that you feel that you could be doing.

143 00:18:50.030 --> 00:19:00.839 Steve Wilson: So, yeah, I think part of it was balancing schedules with, my partner, so I was married the entire time through

144 00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:05.020 Steve Wilson: graduate school. My wife worked…

145 00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:09.709 Steve Wilson: For the first while, night shifts at the hospital.

146 00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:16.210 Steve Wilson: There in Ann Arbor as well, so there was some convenience to that, because we were both able to

147 00:19:16.840 --> 00:19:24.089 Steve Wilson: live without really needing a car. I mean, I could pick up the bus to where I worked, and we lived near the hospital where she worked.

148 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:30.460 Steve Wilson: We did our thing there. And that led me to… Doing a lot of work.

149 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:35.450 Steve Wilson: Late at night, because that was when she was working.

150 00:19:37.040 --> 00:19:46.799 Steve Wilson: And that was when I felt like I could kind of lock in, and I wasn't getting a lot of emails or other kind of distractions, and having those, like, set aside solid times of

151 00:19:47.410 --> 00:19:54.419 Steve Wilson: productivity, where I'm sitting down. You know, a lot of my work was being at the keyboard in front of the computer, you know.

152 00:19:54.740 --> 00:19:59.940 Steve Wilson: Whether it's writing code, running experiments, writing papers, reading papers, that kind of thing.

153 00:20:00.220 --> 00:20:06.159 Steve Wilson: And finding the time when I could regularly do that was useful.

154 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:18.929 Steve Wilson: but then also making sure to have time that's not for that, that works with other people's schedules. So there were certain periods of time where

155 00:20:19.430 --> 00:20:20.360 Steve Wilson: I would…

156 00:20:20.870 --> 00:20:27.490 Steve Wilson: Be home, and be around, and not working on stuff, which is the time that we're both awake.

157 00:20:28.900 --> 00:20:36.799 Steve Wilson: And able to spend time together and do things with other friends in the area. We had a good number of mutual friends, I think.

158 00:20:37.180 --> 00:20:44.400 Steve Wilson: around Ann Arbor that, you know, would pull me away from the lab, which was a nice thing, I think, to make those connections, and not just be a…

159 00:20:45.070 --> 00:20:48.370 Steve Wilson: I'm gonna go put my head down and not talk to anyone.

160 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.689 Steve Wilson: I actually found it really valuable to have a lot of friends who are not

161 00:20:51.860 --> 00:21:08.519 Steve Wilson: PhD students in computer science also. I definitely had friends in the program, but having friends doing other things kind of gives you the opportunity to step outside of that a little bit, when you're doing things with them, hearing about what's going on in their lives and things like that, so…

162 00:21:08.780 --> 00:21:11.129 Steve Wilson: That's also useful. And then…

163 00:21:11.350 --> 00:21:20.680 Steve Wilson: Like I said, the University of Michigan was located near where I grew up, so I did have family nearby, which I'm definitely very fortunate. I know not everyone

164 00:21:20.950 --> 00:21:25.139 Steve Wilson: Has the opportunity to go to grad school near where they lived.

165 00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:30.589 Steve Wilson: But it was possible for me to, like, take a weekend trip and drive home and see

166 00:21:30.710 --> 00:21:33.150 Steve Wilson: My parents and things like that, so…

167 00:21:33.460 --> 00:21:36.699 Steve Wilson: That also happened fairly regularly, I think.

168 00:21:37.290 --> 00:21:40.749 Steve Wilson: But, yeah, I would say it's…

169 00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:48.199 Steve Wilson: it's challenging. I have kids now, I didn't have kids as a grad student. I think life would have been very different, you know.

170 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:56.320 Steve Wilson: also balancing being a dad with grad school, and really, I'm not sure how I would have done it other than

171 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:02.380 Steve Wilson: I don't know, being just very regimented and strict with my time, even more so than I was.

172 00:22:02.620 --> 00:22:09.669 Steve Wilson: But… yeah, I think I… it was already kind of… I felt maxed out, you know, already with…

173 00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:12.360 Steve Wilson: The situation that it was in at the time.

174 00:22:14.840 --> 00:22:31.970 Christopher Lewis: I appreciate you sharing that. Now, I mentioned earlier in passing that after you received your doctorate, you did go and do a post-bac, or a postdoc… go on… you went and did a postdoc at the University of Edinburgh, and

175 00:22:33.010 --> 00:22:52.039 Christopher Lewis: We haven't really talked a lot about that on the show, so I want to have you talk a little bit more about that experience, and what made you decide, after you were done with your doctorate, to take that next step and continue working in a higher education setting, but in a little bit of a different way?

176 00:22:53.560 --> 00:22:55.869 Steve Wilson: Yeah, so that was a great experience.

177 00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:57.400 Steve Wilson: To start.

178 00:22:57.840 --> 00:23:03.779 Steve Wilson: I started thinking about postdocs toward the end of my PhD,

179 00:23:04.270 --> 00:23:06.040 Steve Wilson: I think as a way to…

180 00:23:06.850 --> 00:23:12.329 Steve Wilson: A couple things I wanted to achieve with that, I guess. One was to broaden my research experience a bit.

181 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:23.199 Steve Wilson: I feel… I think the purpose of a PhD is that you're very focused, and you're working on one very specific line of work, sustained over a period of time, so that you can make a contribution to the field.

182 00:23:23.580 --> 00:23:25.539 Steve Wilson: But I had this feeling, like.

183 00:23:26.310 --> 00:23:32.480 Steve Wilson: I just had worked on this one thing for so long. I wanted to get a little bit more breadth. I was…

184 00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:38.459 Steve Wilson: Definitely, in the back of my mind, thinking about faculty jobs down the road.

185 00:23:38.670 --> 00:23:41.819 Steve Wilson: But thought that it would be valuable to…

186 00:23:42.220 --> 00:23:46.070 Steve Wilson: Have a little bit more breadth in my research experience.

187 00:23:46.170 --> 00:23:48.229 Steve Wilson: And at the same time.

188 00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:55.660 Steve Wilson: the international experience was appealing to me. I had always lived in the same country my whole life.

189 00:23:55.990 --> 00:23:58.089 Steve Wilson: And it was kind of a…

190 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:04.230 Steve Wilson: goal of mine to spend some time outside of the United States at some point.

191 00:24:04.360 --> 00:24:18.280 Steve Wilson: Just to experience living somewhere else. And I do think that was really valuable for me. And I thought a postdoc was a great opportunity to do that because of the fact that they're usually fixed-term contract type of positions, so it wasn't… it didn't feel like…

192 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:26.929 Steve Wilson: a commitment to move to this place indefinitely or something. It was, you know, I knew going in this was a two-year term.

193 00:24:27.120 --> 00:24:28.270 Steve Wilson: Kind of thing.

194 00:24:28.450 --> 00:24:34.480 Steve Wilson: And it was a way to kind of see what it's like in a new place, get some more experience.

195 00:24:34.630 --> 00:24:42.429 Steve Wilson: continue doing research. I mean, the position I found, I think, was a really natural progression for my PhD work to expand it a little bit.

196 00:24:42.970 --> 00:24:46.680 Steve Wilson: And it also gave a little bit more breathing room,

197 00:24:47.060 --> 00:24:55.610 Steve Wilson: Where I didn't feel like I had to be writing my dissertation, defending my dissertation, and applying for faculty jobs, which is also an exhausting

198 00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:59.010 Steve Wilson: Process, I think, you know.

199 00:24:59.460 --> 00:25:10.749 Steve Wilson: to apply for faculty positions, and doing all of that at the same time. So, a postdoc also helped to space that out a little bit, where I was finishing my dissertation, and then postdoc applications, pretty…

200 00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:17.439 Steve Wilson: light, I would say, definitely compared to applying for tenure-track faculty jobs. A lot of those

201 00:25:17.620 --> 00:25:29.769 Steve Wilson: just come from word of mouth, or networking, or, you know, so-and-so just got a grant, and they have a postdoc written in, and they need someone to start in 4 months. That kind of stuff is pretty common, I think. So…

202 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:36.829 Steve Wilson: Yeah, looking at those positions was also a nice step to…

203 00:25:37.260 --> 00:25:40.509 Steve Wilson: you know, build onto my career, I think, and…

204 00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:45.790 Steve Wilson: Personally, I just found it a really valuable and enjoyable experience, too.

205 00:25:50.680 --> 00:26:00.550 Christopher Lewis: Now, as you think about individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's in a technological field, business, health, whatever it may be.

206 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:08.879 Christopher Lewis: What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

207 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:17.310 Steve Wilson: I think you want to come in with a clear idea of… Why you're doing it?

208 00:26:17.850 --> 00:26:19.450 Steve Wilson: What you want to get out of it?

209 00:26:20.250 --> 00:26:23.809 Steve Wilson: And take ownership of your experience as a graduate student.

210 00:26:24.780 --> 00:26:32.600 Steve Wilson: So, what I mean is not coming in and saying, I'm not sure, I might do this, I'll go and see…

211 00:26:33.100 --> 00:26:39.150 Steve Wilson: Maybe I'll do the minimum of what they ask me, get the piece of paper at the end.

212 00:26:39.340 --> 00:26:42.759 Steve Wilson: And that will open doors for me, or something like that.

213 00:26:42.940 --> 00:26:53.610 Steve Wilson: I kind of feel like that's… it's an approach to graduate school, but I don't think it's going to really maximize what you get out of it. I think, what's really helpful is knowing I want to…

214 00:26:54.640 --> 00:27:07.760 Steve Wilson: achieve a certain kind of goal longer term, and I know this program's going to help me get there, and I want to make the most out of it to help build my profile, my skills development, those kind of things during that program, which means

215 00:27:09.130 --> 00:27:13.949 Steve Wilson: really thinking about what you want to learn, which… there are things you can learn

216 00:27:15.130 --> 00:27:33.249 Steve Wilson: beyond just the classroom. Even in the classroom, I think you can go beyond what's just given to you directly by professors by looking for ways to… I mean, I think we have a lot of, project-based kind of courses here at U of M Flint, for example, but those kind of things, I think, lend themselves nicely to

217 00:27:33.690 --> 00:27:45.019 Steve Wilson: students exploring things that match their interests. If you have the chance to do things like projects or, research components within courses, where you're able to explore those things that are going to help

218 00:27:45.550 --> 00:27:51.790 Steve Wilson: Act as a perfect stepping stone, or give you the skills that you want to talk about when you're applying for jobs later.

219 00:27:52.000 --> 00:28:02.059 Steve Wilson: That you can kind of control, you should really do that, but even outside of the classroom, I think the relationships during grad school are extremely valuable.

220 00:28:02.270 --> 00:28:06.920 Steve Wilson: I think I was always… had this impression of networking as this…

221 00:28:07.380 --> 00:28:14.880 Steve Wilson: you know, people in suits shaking hands with each other kind of thing, but really, I think a lot of the most valuable networking I've done is…

222 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:23.449 Steve Wilson: making friends in grad school, for example, which sounds maybe too easy, but these are the people who are

223 00:28:23.870 --> 00:28:32.459 Steve Wilson: they're the future leaders in your field, right? Like, you're going to school with other people who are passionate about whatever you're studying, that want to get a graduate degree.

224 00:28:32.630 --> 00:28:50.370 Steve Wilson: it's a really unique opportunity to be in the same place consistently with that kind of cohort of people for several years, and they are probably going to be doing really impressive, amazing things in 5, 10 years. And those people that you know now, I mean, I don't think…

225 00:28:50.480 --> 00:29:03.849 Steve Wilson: you should think of relationships as this, oh, I'm only being friends so that you'll help me later, but… I mean, when I think of what my friends from grad school are doing now, it's, you know, they're all doing amazing things, and I have this network of people

226 00:29:04.130 --> 00:29:11.890 Steve Wilson: Around the world, in industry, in academia, doing cool things that I didn't… go to…

227 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:24.029 Steve Wilson: you know, show up at knocking on doors at Google or something to know people at Google, it's just you knew people from grad school who ended up there, or those kinds of things. So I think that's a really valuable thing, is going…

228 00:29:24.290 --> 00:29:31.409 Steve Wilson: Again, beyond just what's asked of you as a grad student, but finding people around other opportunities if there are, like.

229 00:29:31.830 --> 00:29:41.409 Steve Wilson: clubs or resources that help you with, developing in your area of specialization. If you can get involved in research projects, even as a master's student.

230 00:29:41.930 --> 00:29:49.099 Steve Wilson: I think research can be valuable if you find the right project. I mean, not everyone wants to do a PhD, or wants to go into a research field.

231 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:59.160 Steve Wilson: But you can also think of research as, like, a very open-ended way to work with someone who's kind of an expert on this topic that you wanted to study.

232 00:29:59.530 --> 00:30:02.660 Steve Wilson: And…

233 00:30:03.020 --> 00:30:13.429 Steve Wilson: I mean, make it a negotiation if you're trying to figure out a project to work on. Maybe they don't exactly do this thing that you want to get the skill, but they do something pretty close, and you can say, hey, I really want to…

234 00:30:14.020 --> 00:30:15.960 Steve Wilson: Get some experience with…

235 00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:26.600 Steve Wilson: whatever it is. For AI right now, you know a hot thing is dealing with agents, so I really want to learn how to do something with, you know, agentic AI. Is there something we can work on in your lab that would…

236 00:30:26.790 --> 00:30:36.599 Steve Wilson: fit with your research goals, but also would give me some hands-on, direct experience with Agentic AI, or whatever the thing is that you really want that skill.

237 00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:41.669 Steve Wilson: That's gonna be super valuable, not just for research positions later, but…

238 00:30:41.780 --> 00:30:53.070 Steve Wilson: for an industry position where you can say, hey, I spent the semester, or a year, or whatever it was, building these kind of tools that's exactly the thing your company's LinkedIn post is looking for.

239 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.049 Steve Wilson: For…

240 00:30:55.290 --> 00:31:05.379 Steve Wilson: their purposes, and I learned from this person who has expertise in the field of how to make sure that it's done correctly, and for an impact, and all of those kind of things.

241 00:31:05.610 --> 00:31:12.540 Steve Wilson: I think that can be useful. But yeah, just being very on the,

242 00:31:12.750 --> 00:31:14.950 Steve Wilson: On the lookout for opportunities.

243 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:18.460 Steve Wilson: While you're there, during graduate school, to…

244 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:23.509 Steve Wilson: To do things that, are gonna set you up for success in the future.

245 00:31:23.800 --> 00:31:31.319 Steve Wilson: And talking to other people who are in similar situations, and seeing what they're doing, and those kind of things, I just think is super valuable.

246 00:31:31.630 --> 00:31:34.400 Steve Wilson: In addition to the coursework, which is gonna…

247 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:37.430 Steve Wilson: You know, maybe get you another level of,

248 00:31:37.700 --> 00:31:42.399 Steve Wilson: Beyond your undergraduate courses in a bit more advanced level of a lot of different…

249 00:31:42.670 --> 00:31:46.349 Steve Wilson: Areas, and maybe allow you to specialize a little bit more.

250 00:31:49.950 --> 00:32:12.040 Christopher Lewis: Well, Steve, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I really appreciate you taking the time to be able to share these words of wisdom and to kind of think back and relive some of the experiences, but also share some great tips, some great ideas for individuals to think about as they're starting their journey for themselves. And I wish you all the best.

251 00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:13.430 Steve Wilson: Thank you.

View Details

In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Edie Lerner, a second-year physician assistant (PA) student at the University of Michigan, Flint, whose journey offers a powerful blend of inspiration and practical advice for anyone considering—or currently navigating—graduate school.

From the moment Edie Lerner shares her story, the theme of intentionality stands out. Edie's path to graduate school was anything but rushed. After double majoring in Biology and Biopsychology, Cognition, and Neuroscience at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, she took two and a half years off. During this gap, she gathered hands-on experience in healthcare, worked as a teaching assistant, and developed both the skills and self-understanding necessary to thrive in a rigorous PA program. As Edie notes, the decision to pursue graduate education isn't just about academics—it's about being truly ready as a person for the journey ahead.

A recurring message throughout the conversation is the importance of support systems. Edie intentionally sought out programs close to home, valuing proximity to her family and the ability to lean on her loved ones during challenging times (05:29). For her, success in graduate school isn't just about surviving exams or clinical hours—it's about sustaining her well-being through community connections, advocacy, and service. The University of Michigan Flint's focus on leadership and integrated service learning resonated deeply, aligning with Edie's passion for making a meaningful impact beyond the classroom.

Transitioning to graduate-level study, Edie speaks candidly about the reality of burnout, adapting study habits, and the need to maintain boundaries. Her approach—setting realistic limits for study hours, making time each week for personal renewal, and actively seeking help from faculty and peers—emphasizes that resilience is built through self-awareness and intentional choices. Through it all, Edie's mantra has become "trust the process." Growth doesn't happen overnight, and every challenge—big or small—shapes who you become as a student and a future professional.

Perhaps the most powerful takeaway from this episode is Edie's encouragement to anyone at the starting line: know your "why," lean on your support system, and remember that you are capable. As Dr. Lewis points out, the journey isn't always easy, but the transformation and sense of purpose make it all worthwhile.

Whether you're considering grad school or are deep in the trenches yourself, this episode provides practical insights and a comforting reminder—you're not alone in your journey. Ready for motivation and strategies you can apply to your own path? Listen to the full conversation and fuel your drive to succeed.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love that you come back and you come back to learn and grow every week. And the reason for, for that is that you've got this inkling and maybe it's an inkling of just like, hey, maybe I want to do this graduate school thing, or maybe you're a little bit further along. No matter where you are in the journey, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: You have some idea in your head that you want to either go to graduate school, you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, but you want to be successful in this journey, and that's why you're here, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk to individuals that are interested in working toward that graduate school goal for themselves, and I love being able to introduce you to people that have gone before you. They might still be in graduate school, they might have already graduated and are out working and have been in the field for many years. But the commonality is they all went through the journey themselves and you can learn from them. You can learn from the things that worked, the things that didn't work. And, and that's why I bring you different people with different experiences that can share those journeys with you. And today we got another great guest. Edie Lerner is with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:32]: And Edie is a second year physician assistant student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She just finished up the first year, moving into the second year, and I'm really excited to be able to have her here. Edie, thanks so much for being here today.

Edie Lerner [00:01:44]: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to share a little bit about my journey and share my time at U of M. Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here as well. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and you did a double major there, doing a biology degree as well as biopsychology. Cognition, neuroscience, that's a big named degree. But at some point in that journey, and it might have been during college, and you always had the idea for graduate school or I know you left college, went out, did some work, got some experiences before you decided to go to graduate school, Maybe in those first few years after graduate school, something lit up, something sparked, and you said to yourself, I want to keep going and I want to go and become a physician assistant. Bring me back to that point. What was going through your head?

Edie Lerner [00:02:35]: Yeah, I started my journey at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor, and I truly loved learning. I've always enjoyed the sciences most specifically. And I kind of went into undergrad knowing that I wanted to do more higher education afterwards. So I didn't know what that looked like exactly for me. I knew it was something in the healthcare field. I grew up in older adult homes, which my mom works for a company in long term care. And I knew I wanted to continue my journey supporting patients and supporting people through their healthcare experiences. And I didn't know what that looked like for me at the time.

Edie Lerner [00:03:13]: I was very young, 18 years old, and I joined Alpha Epsilon Delta, which is a pre health honor society at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. And I got to hear other people's experiences. They were pre med or they were pre pa, which is ultimately what I decided to go into. And I really wanted to make sure that I was ready as a human to go into graduate school because it is a big commitment, education wise, time wise, financially. And so after I graduated from U of M in Ann Arbor, I took about two and a half years off. I worked on my PA school applications, I worked on getting direct patient care with others, and I even was a teaching assistant for a little bit in Denver, which was an amazing experience. And finally, when I went to apply to graduate school, I said, I feel comfortable who I am as a person and I feel ready and capable of taking on this huge next step. So while I knew I wanted to go to graduate school and undergrad, it wasn't until I really worked on myself outside of education and outside of being a student to know I was ready to be a graduate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:21]: So going through that process and finally figuring out, okay, this is the cycle that I'm going to be applying in. And if you haven't applied to PA school, physician assistants apply in a cycle. So that means that at one point in the year, all PA programs will open up their applications. You apply during that cycle, and then you're considered for the next start period for that program. That could be in the fall, it could be in the winter. There's lots of different times. So talking back at that cycle, Edie, you decided it was time you decided to put in the application. Well, when you applied, I'm sure that you had done some research and started to figure out for yourself what programs do I really want to apply to? Because there's many different physician assistant programs out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:05]: And getting into a PA program is quite competitive and there's a lot of applicants. So talk to me about how did you whittle that list down? How did you identify which schools you were going to apply to? And ultimately how did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Edie Lerner [00:05:22]: Yeah, that's a great question. Applying to PA school and getting into PA School is a whole feat in itself. So when I was applying, I really valued programs that were close to home. I'm from Farmington Hills, Michigan, which is about an hour away from Flint. And I knew PA school is an incredibly treacherous journey. Learning and being in uncomfortable situations. And I wanted to be able to have my support system close to me. It's so important that I'm able to go home on the weekend to see my mom for dinner.

Edie Lerner [00:05:53]: And just that really kept me sane throughout my school journey so far. Other things about the University of Michigan Flint specifically I really valued was some of the pillars of our program which are leadership and advocacy. I still work on Perfect Pair, which is a national nonprofit, as the director of chapters. And we work to pair college students with older adults living in long term care facilities to combat loneliness and isolation. And the University of Michigan Flint in my PA program has an entire leadership and advocacy project that we actually get to start working on this summer, which I'm very excited for, where we get to go out into the community and do more research and outreach in an area that we're interested in. And so that was one part of the program that was really aligned with my goals and values. Especially because being a leader and being an advocate not only for patients but also for community in more public health spaces is something that is incredibly valuable to me personally. Another thing that I really loved was the fact that we do integrated service learning in our program.

Edie Lerner [00:07:00]: So embedd one of our courses. We are assigned to go to different community bases. So right now, or actually it just finished because we're going into our clinical phase, but we would go into the hospital and participate in the Hurley Help program, which is also supporting older adults who are admitted to the hospital and combating delirium. And so we would visit with them, sit with them. I love to play uno with the patients that I got to see as long as they wanted to and just hear their stories and be there as another support system outside of their Healthcare staff as a volunteer. And so I think especially with my previous experiences in undergrad and throughout my gap years and in PA school, really being able to serve for the community in a volunteer capacity, getting us prepared to serve the community as a PA has been really valuable to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:49]: Every student that goes to graduate school has to go through some type of transition for themselves because going through an undergraduate education you're taught in one way, there's certain expectations and the expectations are not the same as the type of expectations that you would get, especially, especially in a health related program where there is a high caliber of learning that has to happen with hands on experience and being able to show mastery. So talk to me about for yourself, as you were transitioning into your graduate program, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you've continued through not only the first term but your second term and beyond, what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout the journey thus far?

Edie Lerner [00:08:35]: Yeah, that's a great question. And to some degree it just happens in PA school specifically, a lot of the jargon surrounding it is that you do not learn the same and you cannot learn the same as you did in undergrad. And I completely back that statement. The reason is we are given so much content and so much learning and so much information because the future of our specific career is supporting people and saving people's lives. And there is so much information that comes with the human body and anatomy. And so with getting that amount of information, you cannot learn the same. So in undergrad I reviewed, I read over things I highlighted and going into BA school, if you try to rewrote, rewrite one PowerPoint, you will, it'll take you three days and that sets you back immensely for studying. So one part of my growing has been academically and learning that active learning, flashcards, doing practice exams that you either find on a website or that you create yourselves are the way that success comes.

Edie Lerner [00:09:40]: So really learning how to learn and relearning how to learn as a graduate student has been a big part of my journey as well as knowing in being confident in who I am and knowing when it's time to take a break. I think my first semester of PA school, I have never studied so much in my life. I studied 10 to 12 hours a day, even if we were in lectures. And I became incredibly burnt out, which was a scary feeling because it was my first semester and we had a long road to go until graduation. So after that first semester I decided to make it a point that I would do one thing either with my friends and family or for myself in a week. And that is something I have continued to maintain and hope to maintain throughout my clinical education. Because it is so important to take a step back and know that you can't be studying 24 hours a day. It's impossible.

Edie Lerner [00:10:29]: And so learn how you need to learn, as well as maintaining some mental health and connection to your community and support systems that have been there along the way for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:39]: So, speaking about burnout, I want to delve into that a little bit because you're not the first individual that has talked about having to deal with burnout as they go through a graduate degree. Talk to me about the warning signs that you recognized in yourself or that others recognized in you, and what did you have to do to be able to not only get through that point, but you just mentioned some of the things you had to change, but what were other things that you had to change to be able to make sure that that burnout didn't keep reeling its head?

Edie Lerner [00:11:09]: Yeah, burnout is incredibly real, especially in health care. I mean, we are serving people every day. We're talking to people, you know, we're learning every single day still. And so some of the signs I saw was my partner would talk to me and they would say, hey, you know, like, you don't seem okay. I haven't seen you smile in two days. And when you're in the thick of it, studying for four exams that happen within the time span of three days, it's really hard to figure out what you need to do to get over that hurdle. So for me specifically, I took the time during my break between my first semester and second semester to say, okay, I don't want to get into that hole again. I don't want to feel the way I felt during that specific exam week.

Edie Lerner [00:11:52]: What are some things that I can implement actively so that I feel prepared and I feel that I have studied enough while I'm still maintaining my own mental health and the things I need to do to stay happy and stay excited to learn and stay excited to be uncomfortable in new learning environments. So I also implemented. I would Never study past 10:30pm 9:00pm and 10:00pm was a little too early for me, but 10:30 was my cutoff, and I also made sure to do that one thing a week. Another thing I did was study actively earlier. So it wasn't until the end of my first semester where I started to understand what my learning looks like to give me success in my exams and in my Patient evaluations. So I started studying for my exams the day that we walked into the classroom. So there wasn't many full days off, but there was a lot of days that I was studying for less hours so that that burnout wouldn't build upon itself, which within such a short time of cramming. Because if I got to the point where I had to cram again, that's when things really started going downhill for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: One of the other things that I guess that I would ask is this, because being in a program that does have a lot of expectations, and as you are entering into a program, you're still a friend, a daughter, maybe a significant other, you wear a lot of hats, you're a student, and wearing all of those different hats draws from your time, draws from your effort. And you have to figure out where is that optimal balance? What did you have to do to be able to find that balance for yourself? Whether it was with school, work, family, personal responsibilities while you've been in graduate school thus far?

Edie Lerner [00:13:37]: Yeah, all of those different hats are so important when you are just living your life. So while I was preparing to go to graduate school, I knew this was two and a half years of my life that I needed to put myself first and put my education first. And so I had a lot of conversations before I even began the program, talking with my family and with my friends, saying, hey, here's my week off. That happens in five months. I would love to set a time to see you and talk to you then, but before then, I'm not sure what my capacity will look like. And that is a really hard conversation to have. And sometimes people didn't take it as seriously. I remember Visit vividly, one of my family members, they said, oh, don't be dramatic.

Edie Lerner [00:14:22]: You'll be fine. I'll see you the same amount of time. And that's okay if that's what they need to hear. But I have set those boundaries for myself. And it was really important to set those boundaries so that when I had to say no to a family obligation, that wasn't something important enough for me to miss studying or miss an exam. I could call back to that time and say, hey, this is something I let you know before I started the program. And I have to put my education first and I have to put my studying first. With that being said, I personally have never had to miss something that was important to me to go to and that my family needed me to show up to, whether that meant having a little bit later of a night or an earlier morning to study.

Edie Lerner [00:15:04]: Those expectations that I put on myself to be there for my family still maintained. It just looked a little bit different than maybe it would have in the past where I had to leave an event earlier or just wake up earlier to study.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:16]: You've been on campus now for about a year and a half and as you said, you've dealt with different things, whether it be burnout or other issues. Were there any campus resources or student organizations that really help you do to help you support your success in their journey?

Edie Lerner [00:15:31]: Thus far, 100%. I don't think as a graduate student you could survive just by yourself on an island. Specifically the Merchi Science Building. It's not a particular organization, but it is a place and I lived there for my didactic education. I really loved utilizing the whiteboards and USAN has a coffee shop and also food that I would go to often on the weekends. In the morning when I was studying on Saturday, it would be, I'm gonna go, but I'm gonna get a coff. It got me there and it helped me start my day. Also in our PA program we have such wonderful faculty.

Edie Lerner [00:16:06]: Professor Falls, Professor Moore. They are only an email away or even a phone call away if it's an emergency. And I really think that them having such an open door policy to support their students has been life changing. As a PA student, when the education is so complicated, if I do have a question or if I need some emotional support for a tough time because life does not stop when you're in graduate school. They're always there and that's been a really wonderful resource.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:33]: What specific skills would you say that you had to develop most in graduate school?

Edie Lerner [00:16:38]: Yeah, the first skill that comes to mind is adaptability. Every day does not look the same and every exam doesn't look the same. And we are constantly changing what we're learning in terms of body system. If we're learning about the heart versus learning about the lungs, things that worked in one area of studying doesn't look the same in the next area of studying. And so really being able to to adapt to different learning styles and systems, even within the program itself has been really important as well as adapt. I am so uncomfortable sometimes in my program in the best way possible. We talk to standardized patients a lot, so being able to shift and adapt depending on what they're saying and completely new situations that we've never been in. Our last standardized patient was a large surprise to a lot of our cohort.

Edie Lerner [00:17:25]: So really being able to adapt in the moment, in seconds in the room with the patient of what you're talking about and what you're expected to do as a PA student, I think has been vital.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:34]: And I already heard you talk about those first exams and burnout and things like that. Was there any other defining moments or turning points within your education thus far that really have shaped either your academic journey or your professional journey for where you're at right now?

Edie Lerner [00:17:50]: I think it really comes with just trusting the process. I can't pick out a particular moment, but I am not the same person I was when I stepped into graduate school. There are so many skills and lessons and professional developments that happen within PE school, and I think it happens within every single exam and within every single patient interaction, and by meeting and leaning on an entire group of 50 new students. And so instead of one moment, I think it's just a journey. And we hear it a lot in our program. Trust the process. Trust the process. Trust the process.

Edie Lerner [00:18:26]: And it's so true, because we are being built on a knowledge base, but also just a professional base of how to speak to somebody else from the medical field who you've never worked with before. And now you get on a call with them and they're telling you all these things about a patient that you've never met. And now you have to learn how to respond back. And so, especially being in a graduate program where we're being taught to be healthcare providers, we have to be taught interprofessional skills as well. And so not only academically, but also professionally, it's a growing process through all of those little assignments that we're given and through our interprofessional education, education and really learning how to be a healthcare provider in the field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:09]: Have you found that you built specific relationships with faculty or peers that were especially impactful? And if so, how?

Edie Lerner [00:19:17]: My best friend in the program, her name is Emily. She is my lifeline. She is my partner in crime. We studied almost every single day together throughout the program, and I truly do not think I would have made it this far without her. So we do a lot of. Of delegating in terms of who does what to make our study materials, because it takes a lot of time in some ways. So she creates all of our quizlets, and I create our charts that go to all of the different diseases as well as our practice questions that we both use. And so without her and without being able to lean on my community, I wouldn't have been able to pass my exams.

Edie Lerner [00:19:55]: There's no way we bounce off each other in Ideas and questions, questions. One of my favorite things we do while we're studying is to just say, can I ask a dumb question? Because it's real and you need somebody and you need support and you need to be able to ask questions. And I think that's really important in grad school as well as our professors. I mean, all of them are super open to asking questions. But Professor Moore is someone we had throughout our entire first year of didactic education, and I really appreciated his learning stuff style in terms of sometimes he said, you're gonna have to learn this on your own, and here's the information I give you. But you're in graduate school, and so when you have questions, come to me. And we learned. And you have to learn, because when you're a provider and a PA out in the field and you're seeing a patient and you've never heard of this disease before, you're gonna have to go do research, and then you can ask questions later.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:50]: As you think back to the beginning and where you were when you first started graduate school, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Edie Lerner [00:21:01]: I think really, it's just that you can do it, you will do it, and if you're passionate enough, anything is possible. And I think that graduate programs and getting a graduate degree is so worth it. And personally, something that I really value in higher education and the amount of growing I've done academic, academically, and professionally is so profound. And the amount of things I learned has been amazing and incredible, and I'm just really grateful for this journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:33]: And again, as you look back at your graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education, Whether it's becoming a physician assistant, going to business school, going into a technological field, whatever it might be that would help them find success sooner?

Edie Lerner [00:21:49]: Yeah, I think my number one is write down why you're here before you start. I wrote it down on a sheet of paper, and I pulled it out every once in a while when I needed a little bit of motivation. Going through a tough exam week, I think it's really important to know and really have an idea of the reasons you're here and the reasons you're doing this. And if those are the right reasons, then it will get you through. I also think finding success looks really different for every single person. And so being able to have a support system that can really cheer you on throughout that success. Success has been wonderful and something I've really leaned on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:28]: Well, Edie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing the ups, the downs, and everything in between. And I think from what you've shared, it's not always going to be roses, it's not always going to be easy, but it's worth it. And as you said, everybody's here, they've been admitted, they can do this. So always have to remember that. And I love that. And I just want to say good luck as you move into your next phase of the PA program, as you're getting out into the clinics and doing, doing all of this other really exciting work that you're going to be able to now take what you've been learning for the past year and a half and putting it into practice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: I'm excited for you, but also excited to hear how it goes. And I just want to say I wish you all the best.

Edie Lerner [00:23:11]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. It's been wonderful being able to share a little bit of my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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Are you contemplating graduate school or already on the journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" offers an inspiring and practical guide to thriving in higher education, featuring the remarkable story and expert advice of Dr. Khalid Malik, Director of the Graduate Program in Cybersecurity at the University of Michigan-Flint.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this episode unfolds with Dr. Khalid Malik's path from his undergraduate studies in Pakistan to becoming a leader in cybersecurity in the U.S. The conversation reveals the power of perseverance, mentorship, and adaptability in achieving academic and professional goals.

The Power of Motivation and Mentorship Early in the episode, Dr. Khalid Malik credits his family and professors with instilling the value of continuous education, sharing how their support pushed him beyond a bachelor's degree and set him on a global academic path. Their influence helped him pursue a master's, followed by a PhD abroad, despite lucrative job offers after his initial graduation. The takeaway? Seek encouragement from your community and mentorship to fuel your ambition, even when the easier path seems tempting.

Embracing Interdisciplinary Research A key theme is the importance of interdisciplinary learning. Dr. Khalid Malik emphasizes that true innovation often lies at the intersections of fields. He shares examples from his own lab, where projects combine AI, computer science, biology, and engineering to solve complex problems like brain disease diagnostics. For students, he advises: build strong fundamentals and remain open to broad, cross-disciplinary work—this not only enriches your education but also enhances your impact and career prospects.

The Role of Agility and Communication Moving overseas for his PhD demanded rapid adaptation. Dr. Khalid Malik candidly recounts overcoming language barriers and cultural differences through "agility" and a willingness to listen and learn. He stresses the power of effective communication: expressing your ideas clearly, welcoming feedback, and being persistent when reaching out to faculty opens doors otherwise missed.

Navigating the Future with AI A timely takeaway centers on the evolving landscape of technology, especially AI. Dr. Khalid Malik urges students not to fear AI, but to learn its strengths and limitations, integrating it as a tool rather than seeing it as a replacement. Understanding how to work alongside new technologies is, he argues, essential for future-proofing your career.

Encouragement to Prospective Students For anyone eyeing grad school, Dr. Khalid Malik and Dr. Christopher Lewis offer essential advice: stay curious, leverage mentorship, embrace interdisciplinary opportunities, and never hesitate to raise your hand for new experiences. Graduate school is more than academics—it's about growth, adaptability, and building meaningful connections.

If you're seeking motivation, actionable tips, or simply want to hear a candid success story, don't miss this episode of "Victors in Grad School." Listen in and take your next step toward graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I am here to walk alongside you as you are going through this graduate school journey that you're on now. You might be at the very beginning, just starting to touch the I place in the sense of being able to figure out what you want to do. Or maybe you already applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Doesn't matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do right now, this minute to help you in being successful on the journey that you're on. And that's why this show exists. That's why this podcast is here, to help you, to walk alongside you and to provide you with some tools for your toolbox to be able to help you, to be able to learn from others along the way that that have done this and will help you in the journey that you're on. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share the experiences that they had to help you in the experiences that you're going to have. And this week, again, we've got another great guest. Khalid Malik is with us today. And Dr. Malik is a professor at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:21]: He works within our cybersecurity program here and is the director of the Graduate Program in Cybersecurity. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own experience and to learn a little bit more about his graduate journey to share that with you. Khalid, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:01:37]: Thank Chris for this opportunity. It's my pleasure to join your podcast.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today, and I always start these interviews with an opportunity to go back in time. And I love turning the clock back a little bit to get a little bit better sense of who you were before versus where you are right now. And I know that you did your undergraduate work in Pakistan and you did your undergraduate, you did your master's work in Pakistan. You went off, you worked for a bit, and then you went and you decided to go even further. But I want to go back to when you were a student in Pakistan working on that undergraduate degree. You could have probably stopped at a bachelor's Degree you could have stopped there, but you decided to keep going. Bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I want to keep going. I want to keep going and get that master's degree and then we'll talk about your doctorate degree.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:02:27]: Excellent. So Chris, I must give a credit to the society where I was raised. Actually there was a lot of value of higher education for me. There was a no choice except to continue. Let me put it straightforward. Particularly my parents would never ever allow me to go directly into the job. So they gave me option that, you know, if you think you can do a job and do a master together, certainly you should do it. But graduate, getting a graduation and going for higher education, particularly abroad is very important.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:02:59]: They encouraged me and I myself was highly motivated. I was lucky enough that I got acceptance in for my PhD from seven schools. But it all happens because of the motivation provided by my parents and my, my, my professor. So yeah, I never thought of stopping even when I started my bachelor. And I. One of the thing that I learned from one conversation that, that you know, some conversations make a lot of impact for your future career. I was planning to go to medical school and I was on the borderline. The total score was required to get into the medical school was 829 out of thousand and I was having eight.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:03:40]: But there was six candidate who were having 829. So I waited for six months to get into the medical school and I, I couldn't go into it. And I was sitting with all these big physicians and one of the person just asked me that you know what really you want to do if you don't go into medical school. I said I have opportunity in many fields, particularly veterinary medicine and so on. Is like then why you are not going? I said I want to do something interdisciplinary medical. I can do an interdisciplinary. I can bring math, I can bring statistic. I don't what other field I can do it.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:04:13]: And one of the person, he just says as a joke, he is a very famous New Jersey neurosurgeon now in New Jersey he said to me look at the flip side. Computing program also offer interdisciplinary. I said how? He says like someone has to develop a programs for medicine too. So why don't you if you're good in both and you know how to connect the dots, why don't you look at perspective of going into the computer science. So that was first my motivation that I will not do only bachelor in computer science. I will go for advanced studies as well. Because then I can probably Better leverage on my skills. I knew from my high school that I'm really good in interdisciplinary stuff.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: Now. I know that you went, you got your master's degree and then you went off and you did work and you worked in industry for a little bit of time and at some point that itch came back. You wanted to keep, keep going. You and you decided that you wanted to continue your education and you ended up going and getting a ph. And I guess bring me to that point, because you're out in industry, you're doing great work, you're creating things, you're building things, you're doing things. And I'm guessing making an okay salary to live and being able to do that. But then you flip the script and you make a choice that you want to do something to expand your own knowledge and to push yourself to the next level. So talk to me about that.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:05:41]: Sure. So I must say that when I finished my master thesis, my salary was among 1% of the top candidate. If I could have just tried to settle down, this was a possibility. But that was never the goal. So even when I started my first year, I started writing research papers. I was trying to collaborate with the professors that, you know, I want to do this thing. And many more people were saying, you still just finish a master, you are not a PhD candidate, why you want to do a research. I was trying to explain my long term goals to them, that that's the reason I want to start research and my master.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:06:18]: I was the first person in the university who published paper in journal. Many people were publishing only on conference. I was first one who published it. And that also gave me a little bit of encouragement that I can do that. So I started applying. I got acceptance from six or seven schools. And then I was kind of confused that what should I do, how should I select, what school should I go to? So I talked to my dad and he asked me that why don't you talk to your uncles as well, because they are famous neurosurgeons and highly successful. I said, I will definitely ask everyone, but what are your thoughts? So he told me that, you know what, try to go somewhere where you can not learn your research.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:06:56]: You can learn something from society, but at the same time there should be peace of mind as well. I said, dar, you are bringing in these features or criteria that I never have thought. I was thinking I should pick the best of the best lab and where I can publish it, what is has to do with the culture and other things. He says, no, you learn a lot from your surroundings too. You are not learning only from the books. And said what do you mean by staying in a peaceful society? He said look, if you can't focus on something due to any reason, say the law and our situation is not good or there are some other social issues, you will not be able to very be very productive. I said that's interesting perspective. So I gave him a list.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:07:37]: He says what is your choice? I have respect for all the institute who gave me opportunity. I'm not mentioning the name of institutes but I'm mentioning the name of country. One of the top 1 kind of institute was from Singapore and than Thailand. I thought I told my dad these are my top schools and then there is two in United States. But they are not giving me a fully funded. They are giving me, you know like a 25% effort or something. I and that time I was unable to understand what does 25% and 30% effort mean. So I showed to my dad and he says like first two options are out.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:08:05]: I said why? Why they're out? They are the best school. Look at the QS ranking and it's like tell me all the options. I showed him the option that government of Japan is also offering me this scholarship and he says oh this looks really good. I said then there is a one university in Austri and one in Germany. And he said why you picked, you know, this institute from Singapore? I said I only look at the QS ranking, I don't know anything else. So he said that's not how you should making decision. First talk to the people instead of asking them that you know what school you should do, you should ask them that what criteria should be to select this and the reason why I'm bringing this one. I know many of the students are going to listen.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:08:44]: I hear same mistakes from other students. They pick pick the schools only based on the ranking without thinking that you know what kind of professor you are going to deal with, how successful he is, what kind of personality he has and more importantly where you are going, how peaceful the situation is or overall working environment and so on. So I developed this idea and you know, after talking to a lot of people I my dad particularly said you will learn a new language and new culture as well. So that's why I think you should go to the Japan and it's very peaceful country too. So this is how I ended up going to the Tokyo Institute of Technology. But the process also was a miracle for me. Of course we don't have a time I will share with you the story some other time. But yeah, this is how I ended up going into Turkey Institute and that was an amazing experience as of today, you know, I truly enjoy the bond that I have.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:09:33]: Probably you are aware that, you know, I brought first International industry project here, which we still are doing it, right? That is coming from one of the Japanese cybersecurity company. So. And still I enjoy a lot of connections, even my startup first client. By the way, my startup is supported by the University of Michigan. So our first client client is the government of Japan again. So the. The reason I'm sharing these with the thing is that sometime we should try to do risky things and try to do something that or people are not doing it because then you can reduce the competition that you will feel in rest of the world. So the Japanese connection has significantly impacted my research success both here as well as in Oakland University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:16]: At every level of education you have to kind of figure out for yourself what it means to be successful. And you found success in the journey that you went on. You got the master's degree, you went and you got your PhD and you've gone on from there. And I guess as you look back at your master's degree at your PhD and the transitions that you had to go through, what did you have to do at both the master's and the doctorate? And it might be different for both. What did you have to do at both of those levels to be able to first set yourself up for success as you were starting in the program and then what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degrees?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:10:59]: Great question, Chris. Again, if someone think, and sometimes my students think that you are very successful. And even I would say that my colleagues from Ann Arbor and Dearborn campus, you know, they also appreciate that having a startup in U of M fl, this is something that is unheard of. And these things I always tell people that I'm lucky enough, I'm blessed that I am surrounded by good mentor as well as my student. So I got a advice from one of my uncle who is a board of trustee in Henry Ford. He just said me one thing. I was in Japan and I was frustrated that, you know, I work up to 1am and I come back early morning around 8am this is how Japanese culture work. He says, remember one thing, why you are doing this? I said, I have set a lot of goals and I showed him a list that I want to publish this one.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:11:46]: He says, then why there is a stress if you have these goals, are you achieving these goals? I said, I believe so. I mean 80% of the milestone that I said I'm achieving it. He says, then why you are not happy? I said to him, I don't know why I'm not happy. He said, curiosity and hunger for doing a lot of thing is a great thing. But content is also very important. If you achieve something, celebrate it, remain content. If you fail on one or two occasions, you know, accept that and use that failure as an opportunity to learn something and try to, you know, do something big. So I always try to set a goal and then, you know, I try my best to remain content as well.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:12:28]: So that these two things have helped me a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: Did you find as you went into either of those degrees, did you find that you had to change the way in which you either learned change the way in which you approached your work that helped you to find success?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:12:44]: Absolutely. I mean you can imagine that going into some, some place where you cannot understand a single word. On day one, because I never studied Japanese before entering into the Japan, I take a six month of intensive Japanese classes to learn the Japanese. At same time I, I was lucky that professor allowed me to sit in the lab because I was curious more on doing research than language or want to do both in parallel. So it was first six months was very difficult. But what I learned from my Japanese friends, science particularly lab mate, that in this country you have to be super agile, Even you are 100 year old. I said what does that mean? I mean when we are above 70 or 80, how we can be agile. And this is, this is how this society work.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:13:27]: So one of the my lab mate who was in 70s by the way, he was doing PhD, he was in 17, he was the director of Japan Railway. So he gave me this advice that you need to be super agile. And I said to him what do you mean? He said look, this professor are also going to expect. He's asking you do your research, but he's asking you to put him in as a Hitachi project. So if you will be only focusing on one thing and not another and you are not agile, you will not be successful in this society. You will get your pit. So there were a lot of challenge, but again I was good listener so I tried to be super agile. I was working with Hitachi to learn it and that later on helped me to give a job in Panasonic.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:14:03]: Soon I finished my PhD and then I went for a consultancy as well for one or two years before moving here. So agility has helped me a lot. Definitely there were A lot of challenges, language barrier, culture barriers. But with the help of my colleagues and my, this trait of being a good listener and pushing myself, I was able to navigate those challenges. And even today I feel like doing a PhD in Japan was not a bad idea at all because I learned the language, I learned the culture, and I learned a lot of the good habits that even I have right now that those, those things help me to be more productive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now, as you think about that. And I know you now are a professor and you've been, you've gone, you've worked at other institutions and you're, you're a professor here at the University of Michigan Flint as well. And you work with graduate students that are on their own journeys. Talk to me about what you have to do as you are trying to help your students to find that success that you found in your own journey. And what are some of the things that you tell to your students as they're starting their graduate journey?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:15:11]: I focus on two things a lot. First of all, again, I have the biggest lab. Probably 80% of PhD students of U of M Flint belongs to my lab. Three postdocs, I'm having a very big lab. I told them two things and even when I bring them, I test these two. Number one, what about their fundamental, are they really good in the fundamental of the research that they want to do? And second thing is, are they truly interested in interdisciplinary research or not? Right. So for example, in our lab there are three very big projects. One of the project is we are applying the AI on the brain diseases.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:15:45]: So I tell students, if you are not willing to study the vascular system of the brain, you should not be participating in it. It's not that, you know, we are just doing this project for sake of getting something done. It's truly interdisciplinary. It has aspect of the mechanical engineering, it has aspect of the neurosurgery, it has aspect of the computer science and AI and it has the impact of aspect of the biology. My job is as a professor to lay down the surface that is very interdisciplinary in nature. So you guys can play for long time because you can look from very different angles and it will help you to publish sooner. But if you will look into vertically only, it's not truly interdisciplinary or multi disciplinary project, your chances of publication will be lower. And more importantly, yes, you will be maybe very successful or you will be expert in a certain field, but you will be very difficult to become a leader in industry even if you're going in academia.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:16:47]: I take my own example. I was Able to have a startup. Right? Right. Many people are unable to do that because you can then link, okay, how to apply this research into another discipline. So therefore, the pageant for interdisciplinary research is very important. And before that, you should have a strong fundamentals. If you are relying on the crutches of AI to do a strong research, I doubt that those students will be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:13]: Now, I know that as you go into a new institution, as you're a new student, there definitely is some deference that you have towards your faculty members. It's a little scary for a new graduate student as they're entering into a new environment in trying to build those relationships with faculty members. You've been there, you've had to do that yourself as your own, as a student yourself. Now you are a faculty member. What would you say to new graduate students as they are trying to build those strong relationships with their faculty members? And how would you encourage them to move forward in building those?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:17:48]: I always advise students. Number one, if you are not getting response immediately from faculty member, don't give up, up. Number two, everyone appreciate a good research, no matter how busy they are. Many people think that having a startup, I have this big lab with three postdoc and you know, six PhD students on. But I listen to everyone. But there is a different way of listening. I don't have a time to sit with them. I say, let's walk together and have a discussion.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:18:14]: And those students I who are very passionate and they are willing to learn, even they are not very strong compared to many of the students who are working in lab and who are, for example, paid 50% effort or some of them 60%. I asked those students that come not only talk to me, talk to these postdoc and PhD students as well, be observer. So it's very important that you should not hesitate to speak with the people. You should show your passion. Yes. Sometime people like myself, like, you know, this person cannot do a lot of research. But we always give opportunities to those who have a passion of learning. So if students are shy, why and they are not expressing themselves that they want to learn, they will not be able to get opportunities.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:18:59]: So that's my first advice that I was successful. Believe me, I did half of my thesis going in escalator and elevators with the one professor who was very famous and he was not having a time. I always used to tell him, I will tell you what I did in a week when you are going from his company to 10th or 11th floor where there was institute for teaching as well. So getting someone's time. Expressing your opinion and passion is very important and all graduate students, particularly international students, should be doing this. That's a very important thing. Second thing I always tell students, look, we have a limited opportunities. Everyone wants to get a gsrs.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:19:40]: I tell students, prove yourself in a class. We don't have any litmus paper to say you will do best or not. So when we are assigning your project in the class, if you'll do best, believe me, I will approach you. You need not to come to me. If you are interested in going someone's lab, take the class of professor and do really well in the projects. So this is a second bit of the piece that I can give to my graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:02]: That's a great piece of advice and one that I continuously am trying to give to students as I do different webinars and have different opportunities to be able to talk to students. Because what I try to tell students is if you are not able to get a graduate assistantship right from the get go, when you're in class, your faculty members are going to have opportunities for you and they're going to ask people for their help, they're going to ask for volunteers and if your hand is the first one up, up every time, they're going to remember you. So when there are opportunities that do exist, who are they going to come to? And so that does bring up some different things in my mind in regards to as you think back to your own graduate experiences and you think back to the opportunities that you took advantage of, maybe they weren't the ones that you thought you were going to do. Talk to me a little bit about that and how doing just that by putting your hand up, by saying pick me, yes, I'm there. How did that open up other doors for you?

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:20:59]: I will relate this with again one of my examples. So one of my experience in the Japan for one or two years I was struggling to understand the direction that my professor want me to pursue because I'm very hesitantly saying hopefully he is not going to listen to this interview. So I was having a firm opinion that my ideas are better than my professor ideas. And I was talking constantly to my colleagues and postdoc that look, what professor is saying to me me is not making much sense. I have much better ideas. And one of my colleague who's from China, he says then improve your ability to communicate. I said well, I can't speak a fluent Japanese, I don't know how to do it. He said that's not truly a barrier.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:21:41]: I said, then what do you mean by that? He's like, look, when you present it, you have a one guy who is half Japanese, half Australian, and he is a big supporter of your research. Why don't you present together? So communication is the key. It took me two years. It was the just the way of presenting to someone. That guy. I again is highly appreciative of that guy who is now very successful. He has a big company. Other day I saw he has more than 700 employees.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:22:10]: So he helped me a lot how to communicate to the people from the different cultures, right? And particularly my ideas were better understood by my professor. So to answer your questions knows it's very important that you know, you understand other people's point of view and try to communicate your thoughts in a way and work with those people rather than always thinking that you are superior to other people or you are inferior to other people. I took this opportunity, I was not shy or some of my other colleagues says, oh, when you will present with his name as Hama, you know, Professor Will Tungi. It's his idea. So in the start I said in my broken Japanese that professor, these are my ideas. I was trying to communicate it. But today you have to listen to both of us. And then similarly, when the opportunity came in to work in Panasonic, right.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:22:57]: I was initially hesitant. Is my Japanese skill enough to work in industry? I only know how to purchase a ticket, how to buy the food, and how to communicate with my colleagues in industry how is things are going to work. And I talked to a couple of other professors and I went to international office in my university and those people says, you can just give a shot. Why don't you go and give a presentation? So wherever I presented it, it initially it felt like very challenging. But you know, end of day, someone has to get to that position. We have to go with that mindset and we should keep on trying. And that's why I kept on trying. And even the society where, you know, I was not a native speaker, actually I'm not a native speaker.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:23:41]: Essentially my, my Japanese Skill was not JLPT level 3 or 4, which wasn't needed in industry. But I was successful because I was telling them what values I can bring in on, on the, on the project. So it' I agree with you. It's very essential that, you know, we should raise your hand and we should tell people what value we can bring in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:01]: You've given a lot of pieces of advice today. You've talked about your own experience and as you think back to your Own graduate school experience. And you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be cybersecurity, business, health or some other area. What are some tips that you might offer them, these individuals that are thinking about graduate school that would help them find success soon sooner.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:24:22]: I think first of all we should look into how our societies are going to evolve in future. For example, these days AI is going to play a crucial role, right? So many people are afraid that you know what? Why should I go into the cyber security education? I'm giving a one example of cybersecurity. Same is true about computer science these days as well that when AIs particularly say the anthropic models are going to write all the code, how are we going to find the jobs? A lot of people have this question and this is a very valid question. Many top schools, including ucla, Ann Arbor campus, their number of application in computer science are decreasing mainly because of one concern. But the question that we should really have, particularly as a new graduate student is how are we going to work with AI? Rather than thinking that AI is going to replace us or we are going to replace AI, right? That's a fundamental. All of us, I mean when writing proposal lecture, we are interacting with AI. Students have to learn that know first of all what are the strength of AI and what are the limitations of AI? Because I see a lot of students who think AI is more powerful than the student themselves, right? That's not true. They have to understand where AI struggles too.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:25:33]: So that's a number one piece because I don't see a future of work without the AI. So even if you are going in any program, you must be learning little bit of AI and understand how you can leverage your current work, your current projects and future work with AI. That's number one a suggestion I have for a student. Number two is think what AI cannot do and interdisciplinary stuff AI is not good at so far I'll give example because if I'll not give example, those of your listener was saying they may not understand. There is a aspect called cyber physical systems where. Where for example we are riding AI for robot or a car and so on, right? Wherever there is an interaction of the hardware, human is needed. So those fields, highly interdisciplinary field where AI is going to play a partial role role. Look at those fields and they are tremendous.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:26:27]: Number third tip that I will tell students. Don't be afraid that AI will replace you. AI is going to take you to the next level. All of us are working up to midnight and getting up early morning. Our work is not going to finish. And if you ask me what you want to do in 2023, I will tell you there were tens of things that I couldn't accomplish it. So with the power of AI, we are going to achieve much bigger goals than what you know we aspire now. So instead of take accepting this as a challenge, take AI as your companion, but understand its weakness and try to involve yourself in interdisciplinary field where AI has lot of limitations.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:27:06]: This is a question that is coming again and again. Really. Students from all disciplines come to me and ask this question, so I thought I should answer you indirectly as well. Those who didn't interact with me, they will also learn about my opinion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:18]: Well Dr. Malik, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own journey and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Khalid Malik [00:27:25]: Thank you so much Chris for the opportunity. I'm looking forward to talk to some other times as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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Are you considering graduate school, juggling work, family, and community commitments, or wondering how to make it all fit together? This week on the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes special guest Bernard Drew, business growth consultant at the Michigan Small Business Development Center, for an inspiring conversation about perseverance, prioritization, and the power of lifelong learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis sets the stage by reminding listeners that everyone's grad school journey looks different. Whether you're freshly accepted, deep in the trenches, or still deciding if it's the right move, each week's guest brings a unique perspective. This episode, however, is especially resonant for those returning to school after a significant break.

00:02:24 Bernard Drew shares his circuitous journey, going from a mechanical engineering undergrad, to working in business and ministry, to finally pursuing his MBA at Grand Valley State University nineteen years after his first degree. His turning point? A desire to serve more people, steward greater resources, and ensure he was as prepared as possible to give back to his community.

A central theme discussed is the reality of balancing responsibilities. Bernard Drew is candid about the challenge: "If I'm going to add something else to my slate of priorities and responsibilities, it may imply I have to take something off the slate for a season." 00:07:46 From time-blocking Sundays for study sessions at Red Robin, to stepping back from some community commitments, he emphasizes the importance of clearly defining your "glass balls" – those priorities you cannot drop – and making peace with temporary sacrifices.

The episode delivers actionable advice: Make the decision and the adjustments will follow; communicate boundaries and expectations with work and family; and don't underestimate the power of a strong support team. Even if you're returning to school after a long hiatus, leverage your lived experience and collaborate openly—you'll bring more value to the academic setting than you realize.

Ready to be inspired? Hear Bernard Drew's full story and practical advice for succeeding in graduate school by listening to this episode of "Victors in Grad School." It's a must-hear for anyone who dreams of more, but wonders how to make it happen.

Listen now and start writing your own victory story!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we are on a journey together as you are thinking about graduate school and you're trying to figure out what is next for you. And every week I love being able to talk to you because it is a journey. And no matter if you are just starting, maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Doesn't matter where you are in this journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: But there are things that you can do right now to be able to prepare yourself, to be able to get yourself ready for success now. And that's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to see graduate school from a little bit different perspective. And you can see graduate school through the experience that they had. This week. We've got another great guest. Bernard Drew is with us today. And Bernard is a business growth consultant at the Michigan Small Business Development Center. And Bernard has his own journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: He started his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan and then went on and got an mba. And we'll be talking about that journey that he went on for himself. So I'm really excited to have him here. Bernard, thanks so much for being here today.

Bernard Drew [00:01:32]: Well, good morning. It's an absolute pleasure to be part of this discussion with you, and I'm probably even more honored because I wish I would have known this existed before I started my own journey and glad that you're providing this kind of platform from others before they get started on theirs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Well, as I said, I really am appreciative that you're being here now. What I want to do is I want to go back in time. And I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, and after that, you. You went off. You got a lot of different experiences along the way that helped you kind of, I'm going to say, explore many different things in your career and careers per se. And at some point, at some point while you were working in the different jobs and the different careers that you've been in over the years, you came to a point where you made a decision that it was time to go back and it was time to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and what was going through Your head.

Bernard Drew [00:02:24]: Well, you set that stage very well. I think life has taken some interesting journeys. Undergrad was mechanical engineering. Summer before my freshman year, I had an internship at GM and I made my own business cards that looked exactly like the business cards of my supervisor so I would fit. And I was unapologetic for saying I was going to be the CEO of GM by the time I was 35. In that level of boldness and courage. And then life evolves and you come to discover. I enjoyed engineering.

Bernard Drew [00:02:51]: I did well with engineering, but I had a passion to want to really work in the daily lives of serving people. And so that post graduation journey evolved into a discovery that serving people dynamic in my life was working in ministry and working with people wherever they are in need of hope and a greater sense of identity and helping them to rediscover that for themselves, but also recognize while doing this, while serving people, the people that I'm serving, they're not my source, that there's other avenues for financial benefit, financial gain. And there became a desire to grow and discover business. And so for nearly 19 years after undergrad, that was the balance of my life was serving in ministry and operating in business with an emphasis in real estate. And when all said and done, as much as we had great momentum, I'm enjoying what we're doing. It was the revelation that there's more people that I want to be able to serve. There's greater impact I'd like to be able to make in the community. There are some programs that I would like to see supported and facilitated to better the lives of people.

Bernard Drew [00:03:53]: And if given the opportunity to steward hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars of resources to support some community endeavors, last thing I would want is to be at the cusp of an opportunity to serve people in that capacity and for whatever reason be deemed ill prepared or ill equipped to properly steward those kind of funds at the detriment of the people that deserve to have those funds and those resources and programs allocated to them. And that's what prompted me to say, you know what? Here's an opportunity. Let me go ahead and get this mba. That's part of what sparked and prompted that course of direction 19 years after undergrad. It was a desire to want to be properly steward resources and better impact the lives of people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:31]: And I know that you chose to attend Grand Valley State university for your MBA and there are many MBAs all over the state of Michigan, all over the country and the world. So talk to me about that education journey for yourself and what Was it ultimately that made you decide to select Grand Valley when you identified that as your final choice?

Bernard Drew [00:04:54]: I think it's a profound question with an extraordinarily simple answer called money. I think that to be concise, I enjoyed my journey providing consulting services independently for small businesses and working in the real estate space, commercial real estate space, for years. And in the course of that journey, I discovered that the SBDC existed, began working with them closely, so closely that they invited me to consult with them as a contractor. And that evolved into an opportunity to work full time, time for our state hub at Grand Valley State, and just call it what it is. Part of the compensation plan is a tuition benefit. And so when all was said and done, that was the driving force that made that decision making pretty simple. And I'm sure like most people, there's an aspiration to better their lives. There's an aspiration to improve their capacity to bless their families and those that they serve and elevate themselves professionally.

Bernard Drew [00:05:47]: But when all said and done, I'm sure everyone has to at some point stop and evaluate what is the financial investment required to take this academic step and what is my plan for being able to generate a return on that investment, pay it back off and continue to flourish. That definitely was the nail got hit on the head that made that work for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:06]: Now, you already mentioned that it was 19 years from the time that you were in your undergrad to the time that you went into graduate school. And that's a lot of time to be able to get out of the student mode, we'll say, and being in that thought process, that thought zone of what it means to be a student, but saying that I know that you were successful in going through your graduate degree, you got the mba, you've gone on from there, so you found success in that graduate school journey for yourself. So I guess as you think back to entering into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do as you got into graduate school and went through graduate school to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Bernard Drew [00:06:54]: I think that's a great question. And again, it's one of those. I wish I would have had more insight before I started at that point of making the decision. It was just that. Just make the decision and go for it, Bernard. Don't overthink it. Don't overanalyze, don't over critique the unknown. The engineer in me sometimes wants to look at all the variables all the time and make sure everything Lines up and life doesn't just line up perfectly.

Bernard Drew [00:07:15]: It was just a decision. And as the pieces began to fall into place and it was a reality that this was going to take place, there was a need to rapidly begin to assess how do I balanced life? Now that I have integrated this new commitment of graduate school, and having been out of an academic environment for 19 years, for what I thought it was going to take to make room and time, I didn't nearly have the right perspective to understand how much time really was going to need to be allocated. And that was probably the single greatest challenge during and throughout the program was finding a way to, quote, unquote, find some balance. Because I've got a wife, two kids, community commitments, business commitment, work commitment. It was a lot. And so the biggest factor is if I'm going to add something else to my slate of priorities and responsibilities, it may imply that I have to take something off the slate for a season. And that was a very, very, very hard thing to embrace, let alone implement.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]: Now, I know that you have completed your degree, you went off, you continued, you're still doing business growth consultation and have that skill base, that knowledge base under your belt right now. How do you see yourself utilizing what you learned in your MBA on a daily basis?

Bernard Drew [00:08:35]: No, that's great. As I prep for this, I'll also continue to spin off from that last question. I will say that journey navigating undergraduate school, and I just share this with anyone that's there. It takes time and giving yourself the space to reevaluate your own priorities so that you can confidently know what you're saying yes to and confidently know what you're saying no to is so incredibly important. And some of it you won't know until you get into it. But for the most part, I would highly encourage some reflective time to sit down and maybe jot down. These are the things that I prioritize and recognize which things. Yeah, I've heard this story.

Bernard Drew [00:09:12]: Somebody talked about if you're juggling in life and some of the balls are tennis balls, some are baseballs, but some are glass balls, you can drop a tennis ball, it's resilient, and you're juggling. You can drop a baseball and it'll rebound, it's resilient. But if you drop that glass ball, it breaks. And you've got to clearly define what are the unbreakable things, the unshakable things, the things that I cannot compromise as I have to pick and choose where my time is going to go. And so figuring out how to clearly define that and be okay if some of those other things fall and be okay with it and know that that was just the choice that you made. And so family, there was some sacrifice of time with family, but I didn't want that to be one of the glass balls that I allowed to break. That was something that had to be maintained. Certain commitments with work obviously had to be sustained.

Bernard Drew [00:09:55]: But I also say I had some conversations with my supervisor who was very well aware before I got into the process that there was a level understanding, accommodating if I couldn't make certain meetings or couldn't make certain evening events. Because I was committed to school, they understood and that helped to set the expectation. There were certain things again serving in community and ministry. I had to withdraw from a couple of boards I was on because I did not have the capacity during that time frame to serve them well and provide adequate time and energy towards my studies. And there were just some things that had to be dropped. But then at the appointed time I could choose if it was right after the program to go and pick some of those balls back up. And so I just want to encourage individuals that are listening and considering. It'd be worth your time to evaluate what's the priority, what are the things that you can compromise, the things that you can't and be okay that certain things are going to fall, but it's temporary, didn't have to be permanent and you'll be more confident when you've made that decision on purpose, what those things are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:49]: So you just talked about the fact that you had to kind of look at those priorities and you had to try to figure out how to balance those. Talk to me about what you ended up doing to be able to balance balance school, work, family and other responsibilities that you had to be able to maintain the success that you wanted in your graduate school journey.

Bernard Drew [00:11:08]: I would say one of the keys was time blocking, where I would just dedicate block off time for what is worth. Family knew on Sundays after church, pretty much one o' clock and afterward that they probably weren't going to see me. Typically I had a routine on Sundays. I actually would go to Red Robin. They'd have football on the TV and I would snap in the gear of studying and reading from Red Robin. I'd probably be there for an hour and a half, catching a half of a football game, eating and reviewing my notes, reviewing the game plan for what needed to be studied. I would have a team meeting probably about 8 o' clock that night with folks who were on within my cohort, that we had agreed to work together on certain projects together, and that in between time was a lot of my diligent prep time. Usually we had assignments that had to be submitted by 11:59pm on Sunday night.

Bernard Drew [00:11:56]: So Sunday was kind of like the crescendo. And that had to be time blocked, as well as some preliminary time blocks throughout the week that, hey, from this time to this time, I'm preparing for this class. From this time to this time, I'm preparing for that class. And ideally those time blocks at least gave me, I would say 80% of the time necessary, but then I'd have to squeeze in a lot of other time elsewhere. But that was one of the key pieces, blocking out that time, clear communication with those around me so that they would know that they're not being haphazardly left alone, but that this was the dedicated time and conversely, trying to create dedicated time blocks to spend with them as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:36]: And as you look back at your graduate education and you think about what you had to do, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Bernard Drew [00:12:48]: I think number one is definitely just make the decision. I don't know that there is a perfect time and a season for it. Make the decision. And once it's made, then it almost forces you to create the time blocking it almost forces you to do the prioritization in life. So just know that, get the application submitted and just get the process started. Even regards to finding capital, I'm over here considering starting this journey over again with the DBA program over at U of M Flint. And there's a reality that you know what need to align some game plans for the capital and align some plans for where the resource is going to come from and just take the next step. And I think that that's a big part of it.

Bernard Drew [00:13:24]: I would also encourage heavily one of the big lessons learned. I hadn't been in school in so long and when I did finish my undergrad, I was so glad to be finished. I kind of had an attitude like, get me out of here. I don't want to see you guys again. Mission accomplice, let's move on in life. But I'll just say it was a joy to discover that because I was in a program that was so specific to something, I had a passion, I enjoyed my classwork. I think the life and lived experience provided a lot of opportunity for the academic perspective to have the framework to be relevant based on lived experience. In a way that it made my classes that much more practical for me to embrace and understand.

Bernard Drew [00:14:03]: So if you've been out for a while, see that as an asset, not a liability. I was sitting in class with some classmates who were pretty much my daughter's age. I had a daughter who was in her undergraduate program at the same time that I was in my graduate program. And it's great to recognize and appreciate what each person brings to the table. Don't operate in isolation. Build a team, be collaborative, and learn to respect that more can be accomplished when working together. I think that was one of the greatest virtues when we really hit our stride in the program was when we had a solid team that we were working with and could confidently rely on certain people to carry certain legs of the race, respective assignments each week and projects. And that became more of a virtue over time.

Bernard Drew [00:14:48]: And if you're not accustomed to that, that's something I would encourage you to prepare your heart, your mind, even just your way of doing things for. Prepare yourself to work effectively and purposely with other people. It'll make the journey that much more impactful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:00]: Well, Bernard, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for all that you shared about the experiences that you've had. And I know that you, as you said, you're considering further education. So education never stops and you continue have to look for new ways to be able to challenge yourself. But I really appreciate you being here today and I wish you all the best.

Bernard Drew [00:15:19]: I greatly appreciate it. I'm grateful that you have this platform. And again, I just appreciate the encouragement, the practical perspective that it can give to those who are considering or are in their journey, and hope there's some inspiration that allows that journey to be all the more simpler. So thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint.edu.

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Are you contemplating a return to graduate school, or perhaps already in the thick of balancing higher education with work and family commitments? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School dives into the inspiring journey of Keith Poniers, Vice President and Chief Financial Officer at Hurley Medical Center, as he recounts what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school after years away from academia.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, this episode offers an honest, firsthand account of re-entering higher education more than two decades after earning an undergraduate degree. Keith Poniers reflects that it had been 26 years since he stepped into a classroom, and details how evolving career ambitions and executive opportunities motivated him to pursue an MBA (02:25). He candidly discusses the challenge of shaking off "school mode" and stepping into a new academic environment surrounded by both younger students and peers from diverse backgrounds (05:03).

A primary theme throughout the episode is the importance of resilience and adaptability. Keith Poniers openly shares the nerves that came with his first orientation, the adjustment to working alongside younger classmates, and the rapid pivot to online learning brought about by the pandemic (09:04). He credits supportive professors and a strong personal support system—including his wife—for helping him maintain balance and motivation during challenging times (07:28). Sacrificing leisure activities, managing work stress, and dedicating ample time to study were keys to his success, alongside the drive to meet his own high standards (08:37).

Listeners will find actionable advice woven throughout, especially for professionals considering graduate school. Keith Poniers emphasizes finding a program that fits your personal circumstances, preparing for a demanding time commitment, and being ready for collaborative, group-based learning environments (13:15). The episode is rich in reminders about the personal and professional rewards of graduate education, the value of maintaining motivation, and the necessity of adapting to new formats like online learning.

If you're seeking relatable insights and practical encouragement on the road to an advanced degree, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in to hear Keith Poniers and Dr. Christopher Lewis explore the realities of balancing life, career, and education—proving that it's never too late to become a victor in grad school.

Ready to take the next step? Listen to the full episode and let their stories inspire your graduate journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. This is a great opportunity for us to be able to take a look at this journey that you've decided to explore or maybe that you're already on. Graduate school is definitely a journey. And no matter if you're just starting off, you're just starting to think about things, maybe you have applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: No matter where you are, this is a journey and it's leading you down that. That proverbial path toward the light at the end of the tunnel. And every week, I love to be able to talk to you, to work with you, to help you, to provide you with some tools for your toolbox, to give you some sense of how can you find success in this journey that you're on. That's why every week, I truly enjoy being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that can share the graduate journey that they went on. With you this week, we got another great guest. Keith Ponyers is with us today. And Keith is the vice president and chief financial officer at Hurley Medical center. And I am really excited to be able to have him here to talk to you about his own journey in education and to welcome him to the show.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: Keith, thank you so much for being here today.

Keith Poniers [00:01:33]: Thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate the time and look forward to sharing my experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here, and I always love to start these conversations with a turn back in time. So I know that you did your undergraduate work at Indiana University and you went through that experience, you got your bachelor's degree in accounting, and then you went off, you went off, you worked, and you got a lot of different experiences in different types of companies in you. At some point along the way, I'm going to say, quite a ways down the path, you made a decision to go back to school. Take me back to that point in time. And what made you decide that that was the time, that was the time that you wanted to start that graduate education journey for yourself?

Keith Poniers [00:02:25]: Sure. So as you said, it was 26 years between the time I left. Graduated from Indiana way back in 93 until, you know, stepping foot on U of M. Flint's campus in the fall of 2019. What got me to that point over those 26 years in my various jobs, I never thought there was a need for an MBA through the different companies that I worked for. It really wasn't required, that kind of thing. But I got an opportunity to come work at Hurley here in Flint. And I'm a Genesee county born and raised.

Keith Poniers [00:03:03]: Other than my four years at Indiana University, I've either lived or worked here in Genesee County. So coming to work at Hurley was a great opportunity for me. Really love the Flint community and like I said, it's always been a part of my life. But I had an opportunity to come here at Hurley as working in the finance department, and then after a couple of years had another opportunity here at Hurley, and the current CFO was retiring. And they approached me of saying, if you're interested in, you know, stepping up into that role, a master's, an MBA would really go a long way to being you, to become a serious candidate. Nothing's ever guaranteed. But again, if you want that opportunity, certain things to get to that executive level, you do need a master's or B, a cpa, those kind of things. So that got me thinking, okay, where am I at? I was comfortable in my life, wife, daughter, grandkids.

Keith Poniers [00:03:56]: But if I wanted to take that next step in my life and further my career, it was something that needed to be done. So I did some research. Different education opportunities. There's obviously there were online MBAs that you could get. I looked at different ones around the state. But I was attracted to U of M Flint 1, being here right down the road from where I was currently working, great, you know, reputation. So that kind of was the avenue that led me to apply to U of M Flint and their MBA program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:27]: Now you just said that it was about 26 years between when you last left education to when you came back and you kind of get out of the mode of being in school mode, I'm going to say. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. Everybody goes through those transitions. And you had transitioned out of higher ed quite a ways in the past, and then you came back after many years in working. So what did you have to do for yourself to be able to transition back into school and find success as you transitioned in? And what did you have to do as you were going through that graduate education to be able to maintain that success?

Keith Poniers [00:05:03]: It was a huge transition for me. Again, like you said, 26 years is a long time. I still to this day, you know, all these years later, remember going to the orientation, you know, at the School of Management building down the street here, and being very nervous. I'm walking into a room full of people. They're professional people mostly. There are some that just continue right from undergrad into the MBA program. But I was for sure one of the older people in that room having that gap. So it was a challenge to become comfortable in that setting.

Keith Poniers [00:05:35]: You start working with, meeting people a lot younger than you in all different professions. So definitely a challenge. I think I just needed to reset my mind that, okay, this is a new chapter of my life. I drew back on some of those experiences from Indiana. When I went to Indiana, I was the only one from my school to go there. So it was a new experience. So it was kind of like deja vu all over again. Stepping into a new world, not knowing anyone, you know, just like I did when I was a freshman at that point, 30 years ago, from when I started as a freshman at Indiana, to quote, being a freshman in the new world of education, too, that was the other thing that was.

Keith Poniers [00:06:15]: It was when I went to Indiana, I took an electric typewriter with me. You know, it was, now I've come into college with a high tech laptop. So just kind of, like I said, just going back and understanding I can be successful in this new world of education. And it really took, you know, that first couple classes to really become comfortable and say, okay, look, I can fit in. And the professors there were great. My first class was in person with Dr. Lawrence, negotiation class. He made us all feel really comfortable.

Keith Poniers [00:06:47]: He was still, I would say, that's my favorite class of my mba. I draw on the experiences from that class and the lessons learned from Dr. Lawrence in the negotiation. I still have books from his class and a few others on my bookshelf behind me. But it really, again, the professors made it really comfortable for myself, being a little older, to fit in with the younger crowd and worked well with each other there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: Now you were working full time while you were going through school, so you had to do some balancing along the way. Talk to me about balance and how were you able to find that balance for yourself as you were trying to wear the many hats that you had to wear while you were going through a graduate program.

Keith Poniers [00:07:28]: Sure. I give a lot of credit to my wife. She was very supportive. The job at that point, I was controller at Hurley, you know, working my way, hopefully being to be considered for the. The CFO role. So. But it was a very challenging job, stressful as well. So Then you throw college classes on top of it and all the time commitments.

Keith Poniers [00:07:48]: So again, like I said, a lot of thanks, kudos to my wife for allowing me to kind of step back from our marriage. And you have to have that kind of give and take with whoever you're living with, your partnering with, whoever that they understand and they are supportive because it is an impact on your life. I kind of had to give up some of my other extracurricular activities I love to golf. I had to cut back and golf, fantasy football, fantasy baseball, those other things I had to scale back a little bit on. But ultimately you understand that there's a goal while you are doing this. And so you sacrifice a little bit to reach that goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: You do have to do some of that. You do have to sacrifice at times. And you have to find ways to keep yourself motivated because it can be challenging along the way. How did you stay motivated through challenging semesters or coursework?

Keith Poniers [00:08:37]: I hold myself to a very high standard. So for me, the motivation was doing the best I can, getting the best grade throughout. Like, I started in the fall of 2019. So my second semester was 2020, which is obviously Covid hit. So that was its own challenge in itself. Stepping back in the classroom after 26 years, thinking everything was going to be in person, and then all of a sudden Covid hits and the whole world changed. And so that really continued to make me be focused on, okay, I got to pay attention because now everything is online. It was kind of a different world that I'm used to in person meetings, talking face to face with people.

Keith Poniers [00:09:20]: Now everything flipped to virtual meetings, virtual classes. That was a whole new learning experience in itself. But again, my drive to be successful, and I knew I needed to be successful if I wanted to reach the ultimate goal of being considered for a higher executive level here at the hospital, that was really important to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]: Now, you said you, it sounded like you looked at only MBA programs because that was the path that you were looking at. And as you look back now, it's been a couple of years since you got that degree. And you think back now to the things that you're still pulling from. If you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same program or path? Why or why not?

Keith Poniers [00:09:59]: I would absolutely choose the same program. Again, the convenience of being local here in the community was a big selling point to me. Again, at that point, I thought I would be more successful with an in person type of learning because that's what I was used to way back in the day. Obviously didn't know I was going to completely flip to an online class. I only had the first semester and then about two or three months of the second semester was actual in person before going to online. So in hindsight, knowing how more convenient online classes is, I may have considered something a little different. But again, that was kind of, that was what I was used to, so that's why I chose it. But even now, understanding, you know, the online presence, I think, you know, U of M.

Keith Poniers [00:10:46]: Flint did a great job making that transition. It was quick, seamless, really. No issues with the technology or anything like that. So I think knowing the university has those resources available that they can quickly, you know, pivot as well, they made it very easy transition as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:04]: And I know earlier you mentioned Dr. Lawrence's class, but. And you think, as you think about the courses that you went through, how did graduate school change the way you think or approach problems?

Keith Poniers [00:11:14]: I mean, there were a handful of classes that I continue to draw back on. Organizational behavior was one. Again, one of my first classes. But as I stepped into more leadership roles throughout my career, being able to read, people understand you can't treat everyone the same. Everyone is different. You know, those, those kind of lessons were and I felt like repeated in a lot of the classes. But sometimes you just need that drip, drip, drip to. To hear message over and over again.

Keith Poniers [00:11:43]: You know, you have to be open. You have to be, you know, look at things differently through different lenses, whether it's just dealing with people or other ideas kind of thing. So that's something I continue to draw on throughout my career since I've graduated as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:58]: What's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Keith Poniers [00:12:02]: It required a little more time commitment than I expected. Again, I thank my wife and my family for being supportive. And you think, okay, I got all these life experiences, I should be able to handle it. But I'm also one that I like to be prepared. So I probably spent more time studying, reading, making sure, you know, I did everything on the syllabus so I could be successful. So again, just be prepared to spend and dedicate that time necessary if you want to be successful. You have to put in the time. So my one negative of the whole thing at the whole experience was the one A minus.

Keith Poniers [00:12:40]: I got in one class that cost me a 4.0 GPA. And I think I go back to I prob. Probably didn't spend enough time preparing for that one exam in that class that I didn't do as well as I should have been. And I still kind of kick myself for not getting that perfect 4.0 class or GPA throughout my two years there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: Now, as you think back to your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be in business or the health field or something else, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Keith Poniers [00:13:15]: I think you got to find the right environment for you to be successful again. Understand that there will be impact to your personal life, especially if you're working. If you're going to be working and doing this, gotta make sure your job understands okay. You know, you're gonna have some other commitments you may have to take some time off for. For certain things that just getting your mind right, that's going to impact your current life and your work life balance. You need to be prepared to adjust and pivot accordingly because if you want to be, you have to dedicate the time to it. You can't just skirt by. Sometimes I think people in high school, they can, okay, you just got to do the work.

Keith Poniers [00:13:57]: You can get by through in high school. When you get to college, you have to step up a little more. I think the MBA program, at least from my experience, and again I'm comparing to my undergrad a long time ago, but there was a lot more interaction, group work, those kind of things which I found really, I appreciated that back in my day, you know, we didn't do as many group projects even at Indiana, but in this program, program every class had group work. You're doing online comments, chats, working on projects. So it goes back to if you're going to be successful, you have to be willing to work with other people. You have to be tolerant to that. Not everyone is going to have the same work ethic as you. So you have to accept that they might just be along for the ride while you're striving to further your career.

Keith Poniers [00:14:45]: You have to either one, call them out for that. Don't be bashful if somebody's not putting in the work. You got to call them out and make sure, hey, migrate on what you do as well on those group projects. That's another thing where I would encourage, don't be afraid to step up and say something as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]: Well, Keith, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and I truly wish you all the best.

Keith Poniers [00:15:06]: Thank you very much. I appreciate the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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There's a question I hear often from graduate applicants—and it usually comes with a long pause and a little uncertainty:

"Should I talk about the obstacles I've overcome in my personal statement?"

And then the follow-up question:

"What if it sounds… cliché?"

If you're asking that, I want you to know: you're already thinking like a strong writer.

Because the truth is, many applicants do write about challenges in ways that feel generic or overly dramatic. And that can make an essay blur into the background—especially when admissions reviewers are reading dozens (or hundreds) of statements.

But here's the good news:

You can absolutely write about obstacles you've overcome in a way that feels authentic, powerful, and professional.

In fact, when done well, it often becomes the most compelling part of the essay—not because it's dramatic, but because it shows the real qualities graduate programs value:

• resilience
• self-awareness
• maturity
• problem-solving
• growth

So today, I'll show you how to present challenges you've faced without sounding cliché, without oversharing, and without turning your personal statement into a "sad story."

Instead, you'll learn how to turn obstacles into narrative strength—while still clearly showing you're ready for graduate school.

First: Yes, you can talk about obstacles (and sometimes you should) Let's begin by addressing the concern directly:

You are allowed to talk about obstacles in a graduate school personal statement.

Graduate programs understand that people don't arrive at graduate school with perfectly smooth paths. In fact, sometimes a challenge is what shapes a person into the kind of student and professional who thrives in graduate-level work.

But there is one key principle to keep in mind:

Your obstacle should not be the centerpiece. Your growth should be.

This is where many essays go off track.

Why some "obstacle essays" feel clichéd Let's talk honestly about what makes a challenge story land poorly.

Obstacle stories often become clichés when they:

• rely on generic phrases
• focus too much on pain without reflection
• jump to a "happy ending" without showing the process
• make the reader do the work of connecting the dots
• sound like an inspirational movie trailer instead of a real person

You've probably seen phrases like:

• "I learned that everything happens for a reason."
• "This challenge made me stronger than ever."
• "I never gave up on my dreams."
• "Through hard work and determination, I overcame…"

None of these are inherently wrong—they're just vague. They don't show anything specific about you.

Graduate programs don't need a motivational quote.

They need clarity.

They want to understand:

• what happened
• what you did
• what you learned
• how it changed you
• how it prepared you for graduate study

The most important shift: Move from drama to meaning If you want to avoid clichés, here is the simplest and most powerful advice I can give:

Don't write your obstacle story like a headline. Write it like a reflection.

Instead of making the reader think:

"Wow, that sounds hard."

You want the reader to think:

"This person learned something important, responded with maturity, and is ready for the next level."

The heart of your obstacle story isn't the obstacle.

It's the decisions you made and the growth you gained.

What graduate programs want to see in an obstacle story When admissions reviewers read about a challenge, they're usually looking for signs of:

• coping and resilience
• responsibility and ownership
• problem-solving
• ability to seek help
• self-awareness and reflection
• forward movement
• readiness, not fragility

This is important:

The goal is not to convince them you've suffered.

The goal is to show them you can succeed, even when life is difficult.

The best structure to use: Situation, Action, Growth, Connection This framework is the simplest way to write about obstacles without sounding cliché.

I call it:

• Situation
• Action
• Growth
• Connection

Here's what that looks like.

Situation Briefly describe what happened, with just enough context to understand the challenge.

Keep this section short. You are not writing a memoir.

Action What did you do in response?

This is the most overlooked part of obstacle essays.

Your response is what shows maturity.

Growth What did you learn?

Not a generic lesson—something specific that shows insight.

Connection How does this connect to your goals and graduate readiness?

This brings it back to admissions.

What to include (and what to leave out) Let's make this practical.

Include * brief, relevant context * your response and choices * how you adapted * skills you developed * how it influenced your direction * growth you can name clearly * forward-facing mindset

Leave out or minimize * overly detailed personal information * blame toward others * long emotional descriptions * medical or mental health specifics, unless necessary and handled carefully * unresolved hardship presented as ongoing crisis * anything that makes the program wonder if graduate study could overwhelm you

You don't need to share everything to be authentic.

You need to share what supports the narrative of readiness.

How to avoid clichés: 6 strategies that work Here are some concrete ways to keep your writing fresh, real, and compelling.

1) Use specific details, not generic feelings Instead of "it was hard," explain what "hard" meant in real life.

Example:

• managing full-time work while caring for a family member
• navigating housing instability during an academic term
• switching majors after realizing the first path wasn't aligned
• being the first in your family to understand the college system

Specificity makes your story feel real—not cliché.

2) Focus on the process, not the moral Avoid ending with "I learned perseverance."

Instead, show what perseverance looked like.

Example:

• "I created a weekly schedule and met with my academic advisor twice a month to ensure I stayed on track."

That's not cliché. That's concrete.

3) Avoid overly dramatic language You don't need words like:

• devastating
• shattered
• life-changing in every way
• darkest moment

Sometimes those words are true, but they can read as exaggerated in an admissions context.

Let the facts and reflection create the impact.

4) Show agency This is huge.

Even if the obstacle was not your fault, your essay should highlight what you did next.

Agency sounds like:

• "I sought support…"
• "I adjusted my approach…"
• "I learned how to…"
• "I created a plan to…"

5) Include one insight that's uniquely yours This is the moment where you sound like a real person, not an essay template.

It might be:

• a realization
• a new perspective
• a shift in your values
• an understanding about your field

Example:

• "That experience taught me that support systems aren't optional—they're essential. That insight is one reason I'm pursuing graduate study in counseling."

6) Bring it back to graduate readiness This is the "professional landing."

Tell the reader why this experience prepares you for graduate-level work.

Examples:

• stronger time management
• improved communication
• better boundary setting
• comfort asking for help and using resources
• ability to persist and problem-solve
• clearer purpose and direction

Example paragraph: obstacle story without clichés Here's an example that follows the framework and stays professional:

"During my junior year, I experienced a major disruption in my family responsibilities that required me to work increased hours while also supporting younger siblings at home. My academic performance was impacted during that semester, but it also forced me to develop skills I had not needed before. I created a structured weekly schedule, met regularly with instructors to stay aligned with expectations, and learned how to communicate early when challenges arose. Over time, I regained academic momentum and became more disciplined, organized, and intentional about how I used my time. That experience strengthened my confidence in my ability to manage demanding workloads—skills I know will be essential in graduate study."

Notice what this does well:

• it gives context, but doesn't overshare
• it focuses on action
• it shows learning
• it ends with readiness

That's the goal.

What if your obstacle is connected to low grades or gaps? This is a common situation, and it can actually be a powerful narrative—if handled well.

Here's how to do it:

• briefly acknowledge it
• explain context without excuses
• explain what changed
• point to evidence of improvement
• emphasize readiness now

Graduate programs respect honesty and growth.

They struggle with avoidance or blaming.

Quick checklist before you submit Use this to test whether your obstacle story is helping your application.

• Is the obstacle described briefly, without overwhelming detail?
• Does the essay focus more on growth than hardship?
• Do I show what I did, not just what I felt?
• Is my reflection specific and meaningful?
• Does this story support my readiness for graduate study?
• Does my tone feel professional, grounded, and hopeful?

If yes, you're in a great place.

Final encouragement I'll end with this:

Your obstacles do not disqualify you from graduate school.

In many cases, they help explain the strength you bring into it.

But the strongest personal statements do not ask the admissions committee to "feel sorry" for the applicant.

They show something far more compelling:

A person who has faced challenges, responded with purpose, learned with maturity, and is ready for what's next.

And if you can tell that story with clarity and authenticity?

You won't sound cliché.

You'll sound real.

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If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably reached the part of the application that feels surprisingly stressful:

Letters of recommendation.

Not because you don't know anyone—most applicants do.

But because the requirements often sound like they were written for one very specific kind of student:

• someone who graduated recently
• someone who still has professors who remember them
• someone currently working in an academic environment
• someone who has research experience and faculty mentors

And if your path looks different than that—if you've been working full-time, changed careers, raised a family, served in the military, or simply graduated a while ago—you might be wondering:

"Can my letters of recommendation come from outside of academia?" In other words:

• Can my supervisor write one?
• What about a colleague?
• A nonprofit director I volunteered with?
• A clinical supervisor?
• A mentor in my profession?

If you've asked these questions, you're thinking smartly—and you're not alone.

So today, I'm going to answer this clearly and thoroughly, from the perspective of someone who works in graduate admissions and supports applicants every day.

By the end, you'll know:

• when non-academic letters are acceptable (and even preferred)
• who makes the strongest recommender outside academia
• when you should prioritize academic references
• how to choose recommenders strategically
• and how to request letters that actually help your application

Let's jump in.

The short answer: Yes—often they can In many cases, yes.

Graduate programs understand that applicants come from diverse paths, and many strong graduate students are:

• professionals returning to school
• career changers
• adult learners
• military-connected students
• first-generation students
• parents or caregivers
• applicants who have been away from academia for several years

And those applicants may not have recent professors who can write meaningful, detailed letters.

Here's the important detail, though:

The best recommendation letters are not about where the recommender works. They are about what the recommender can say about you.

A strong letter—academic or professional—does the same job:

• it shows evidence of your readiness
• it highlights strengths that match graduate-level expectations
• it provides examples of how you work, learn, and contribute

Why graduate programs ask for recommendation letters It helps to understand what these letters are supposed to accomplish.

Graduate programs use letters of recommendation to answer questions like:

• Can this applicant succeed in graduate-level work?
• Are they dependable and responsible?
• Can they write, think, communicate, and problem-solve at a high level?
• Do they have the maturity for advanced study?
• Will they contribute positively to the program community?

A good letter gives the committee a perspective they can't get from:

• grades
• resumes
• personal statements
• or test scores

Recommendation letters are third-party credibility.

They confirm that your application isn't just well-written—it's true.

When letters from outside academia are absolutely appropriate Many graduate programs accept professional references without hesitation, especially when the applicant has been out of school for a while.

Professional letters are often ideal if:

• you graduated more than 3 to 5 years ago
• you're applying to a professional or practice-based program
• you've gained substantial work experience in a relevant field
• your work responsibilities demonstrate advanced skills
• you have supervisors who can speak to your performance

Examples of programs where professional letters are often strong:

• MBA and business programs
• education leadership programs
• social work
• counseling and clinical programs
• public health
• nursing and healthcare programs
• nonprofit management
• information technology, cybersecurity, and applied STEM fields
• MPA and public administration

For these programs, real-world performance matters—and professional references can be incredibly persuasive.

When academic letters are strongly preferred Now, there are some circumstances where academic letters are still the best choice.

Programs often prefer academic references when:

• you are applying to a research-heavy graduate program
• you are applying to a PhD or thesis-based master's program
• the program requires evidence of academic writing and research skill
• you are applying directly from undergrad or have recent coursework
• the program explicitly states faculty references are required

In these cases, the program wants letters that can specifically address:

• academic writing
• intellectual curiosity
• research potential
• critical thinking
• classroom contribution
• scholarly habits

Academic letters can be hard to replace when the program is evaluating research readiness.

The real key: choose recommenders who can provide specific examples Here's something I tell applicants all the time:

A letter from a famous person who barely knows you is weak.

A letter from a direct supervisor who truly knows your work is strong.

Admissions committees care about detail.

Strong letters include:

• how long the person has known you
• what role they worked with you in
• specific examples of your performance
• specific strengths connected to graduate work
• clear recommendation language

Weak letters are vague and generic, filled with phrases like:

• "hard-working"
• "nice"
• "great attitude"
• "good communicator"

Those aren't bad traits—but they don't prove readiness for graduate-level success.

Who should I ask for a letter if I'm using non-academic references? Here are the best choices outside academia:

• direct supervisor or manager
• clinical supervisor or preceptor
• department lead who has evaluated your work
• project leader you reported to
• nonprofit executive you worked closely with
• internship supervisor
• mentor who oversaw your professional development

When possible, choose someone who can speak to:

• how you learn
• how you handle complex tasks
• how you communicate professionally
• how you lead or collaborate
• how you manage responsibility

Those are graduate success indicators.

Who to avoid asking (if possible) Sometimes applicants choose recommenders based on title rather than content.

Try to avoid:

• family friends or personal acquaintances
• religious leaders who only know you socially
• elected officials who met you once
• coworkers who don't supervise or evaluate you
• people who only know you casually

These letters are often too general and don't carry the kind of credibility programs need.

A practical recommendation: a "balanced set" often works best If the program requires 3 letters, one great strategy is balance.

Examples of strong combinations:

For a professional master's applicant:

• 2 professional references
• 1 academic reference if available

For a recent graduate:

• 2 academic references
• 1 professional or internship supervisor

For a research or doctoral applicant:

• 2 academic references (ideally research-related)
• 1 professional or academic reference with strong writing/research insight

If you are applying to multiple programs, adjust your letter mix depending on each program's expectations.

What if I don't have any academic references? This is very common.

If you don't have academic recommenders, here's what to do.

• choose professional recommenders who can speak to writing, analysis, and learning
• select recommenders who have evaluated your work formally
• use your statement of purpose to reinforce academic readiness
• consider taking one course before applying to build an academic reference

That last one can be powerful.

Even one graduate-level course or professional certification program can give you a current instructor who can write a meaningful academic letter.

How to ask for a letter that actually helps you The best letters happen when you support your recommender.

When you request a letter, provide:

• the program name and degree
• the deadline
• the submission process
• your resume or CV
• your draft statement of purpose
• 3 bullet points of what you hope they can emphasize
• a reminder of projects or accomplishments you worked on together

This makes it easier for them to write a detailed letter.

And detailed letters matter.

What should the letter highlight for graduate admissions? Here are graduate-level qualities that recommenders can address:

• intellectual curiosity and ability to learn quickly
• strong writing and communication
• analytical thinking and problem-solving
• reliability and follow-through
• leadership and collaboration
• professionalism and integrity
• ability to handle feedback and grow
• time management and workload readiness

If your recommender can provide examples in even 2 to 3 of these areas, you are in strong shape.

Quick checklist: Are my non-academic letters acceptable? Ask yourself:

• does the program allow professional letters?
• have I been away from school for several years?
• can my recommender speak to my skills with specific examples?
• does the recommender know my work well?
• do my letters support my program goals and readiness?

If yes, you're good.

Final encouragement Let me close with this.

Graduate programs want strong students.

And strong students come from many paths.

If your best recommenders are outside academia, that does not weaken your application.

In fact, for many programs—especially professional programs—letters from supervisors and workplace mentors can be some of the strongest letters we read.

The key is not academic or non-academic.

The key is:

• credibility
• specific examples
• and clear evidence you are ready for graduate-level work

Choose recommenders who know you well, can speak in detail, and genuinely want to support your next step.

That is what makes a recommendation letter powerful.

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If you've ever tried to write a graduate school essay, you've probably experienced this exact moment:

You're writing along… feeling good… and then you check the word count.

And suddenly your heart sinks.

Because you're either:

• 400 words over the limit or
• 200 words under the limit or
• right at the limit… but your essay feels vague and generic

And the biggest source of frustration is usually this:

"I know I need to include specific examples… but examples take up so many words." If that's where you are, I want to reassure you:

You're not a bad writer.

You're just experiencing what almost every graduate applicant experiences—because great examples are what make an essay strong, but word limits are what make essays feel impossible.

So today, I'm going to show you how to do both:

• include specific examples (the kind admissions committees actually remember)
• and stay within the word limit

Let's jump in.

Why examples matter so much in a graduate school essay Let's start with the "why," because it's important.

When admissions committees read essays, they're not only looking for good intentions.

They're looking for evidence.

Examples are evidence.

Examples show:

• what you've done
• how you think
• how you solve problems
• what you've learned
• what you're ready for

Without examples, an essay becomes a list of claims.

And the problem with claims is that anyone can make them.

For example:

• "I'm a leader."
• "I'm passionate about equity."
• "I'm committed to community impact."
• "I'm ready for graduate-level work."

All of those statements might be true.

But admissions committees are quietly asking:

"Can you show me?" That's where examples matter.

The core challenge: examples increase detail, and detail increases word count This is the tension you're feeling:

• Specific examples make your essay stronger
• But you only have 500–1,000 words (sometimes even less)

So the goal isn't to remove examples.

The goal is to learn how to write examples efficiently.

Think of it like this:

You don't need more examples.

You need better examples.

And you need to write them in a way that delivers maximum impact in minimum space.

The golden rule: one strong example is better than three weak ones Many applicants go over the word limit because they try to squeeze in everything they've ever done.

But a strong grad essay usually needs:

• 2 to 4 strong examples total

That's it.

Not 10.

Not your full resume.

A few examples, chosen intentionally and written clearly, will always outperform an essay full of scattered experiences.

Choose examples that do double (or triple) duty This is one of the most powerful strategies.

A great example should demonstrate more than one strength at once.

Instead of choosing examples that only show one thing, choose examples that show:

• skill
• impact
• growth
• and alignment with your goals

Here's what that looks like:

Weak example choice:

• one example for leadership
• one example for research
• one example for community service
• one example for teamwork

That becomes too much.

Stronger approach:

Choose one experience that includes multiple dimensions.

Example:

A capstone project might show:

• research skills
• collaboration
• communication
• problem-solving
• commitment to a population
• readiness for graduate study

That's a high-value example.

Use the 3-sentence example formula This is one of my favorite techniques for staying within the word limit.

When you include an example, limit yourself to three sentences:

• what you did
• what you learned
• how it connects to your goals

Here's a template:

• Sentence 1: I did ________ in ________ setting.
• Sentence 2: This taught me ________ or helped me develop ________.
• Sentence 3: This connects to my goal of ________ and prepares me for ________.

Here's how that sounds in real writing:

"During my internship in student support services, I helped launch a peer mentoring program for transfer students. Through this work, I strengthened my ability to design support structures, analyze engagement patterns, and communicate across diverse stakeholder groups. This experience shaped my goal of pursuing graduate study in higher education to build equitable student success initiatives grounded in data and community needs."

That's three sentences.

Clear. Specific. Connected.

And most importantly, efficient.

Replace long storytelling with "high-density" details This is how you keep examples specific without writing a novel.

Instead of spending 8 sentences describing the background, use details that condense the story.

For example:

Instead of:

"I was working at a nonprofit and we were trying to help community members and there were many challenges and I learned a lot…"

Use:

"In my role as program coordinator at a community nonprofit, I managed outreach initiatives supporting first-generation college students."

That one sentence includes:

• role
• setting
• purpose
• population

That's high-density detail.

When applicants run out of words, it's often because they are writing low-density sentences—sentences that take a lot of space without delivering much information.

Use numbers strategically (they add clarity without adding length) Numbers are one of the easiest ways to make an example more concrete without adding word count.

Examples:

• "served 200 participants"
• "increased event attendance by 30%"
• "led a team of 6"
• "supported a caseload of 25 clients"
• "managed a $10,000 budget"
• "developed a training module used by 40 staff members"

Numbers make an essay feel real.

And they take very few words.

Avoid the "resume dump" paragraph This is a common pattern:

Applicants add one long paragraph listing everything they've done.

It usually sounds like:

"I completed X, and I also worked at Y, and I volunteered at Z, and I participated in A…"

This is where word counts explode.

Instead, use fewer examples—but go deeper with intent.

Remember:

Graduate programs would rather understand 2 key experiences well than read 12 experiences poorly.

Combine sentences using "stacking" Stacking is when you combine related details into one well-built sentence.

Example:

Instead of:

"I worked as a graduate assistant. I supported faculty. I developed workshop content. I helped students with planning."

Try:

"As a graduate assistant, I supported faculty-led initiatives while designing student workshops focused on academic planning, motivation, and professional development."

Same information. Far fewer words.

Cut filler phrases that cost words without adding meaning This is the easiest way to reduce word count quickly.

Here are common filler phrases to remove:

• "I believe that"
• "I feel that"
• "It is important to note that"
• "Due to the fact that"
• "In order to"
• "This experience helped me to"
• "I was able to"

Replace them with stronger verbs.

Examples:

• "I believe that" becomes "I know" or nothing at all
• "in order to" becomes "to"
• "helped me to develop" becomes "developed"
• "I was able to lead" becomes "I led"

This is how you keep meaning but reduce length.

Use an intentional outline so you don't overwrite Most word limit problems happen before the writing even begins.

Because the applicant writes without a map.

Try this simple outline that helps you control length:

• 10% hook + motivation
• 30% preparation and key examples
• 40% goals + program fit
• 20% conclusion and future impact

When you assign "space" to each section, you naturally stay within the limit.

A simple editing strategy: subtract 10% without losing substance If your essay is too long, don't panic.

Here's a process that works almost every time.

First pass: delete filler and repeated phrases Second pass: replace long phrases with shorter ones Third pass: reduce each example to 3 sentences Fourth pass: cut your weakest example

Most essays can lose 10% of word count without losing meaning at all.

In fact, they usually get stronger.

Quick checklist: am I using examples efficiently? Before you submit, ask:

• Did I include 2–4 strong examples (not 8–10)?
• Do my examples show impact, skills, and growth?
• Did I connect each example to my graduate goals?
• Are my examples written in 3 sentences or less?
• Did I use numbers where possible?
• Did I remove filler phrases?

If yes, you're right where you need to be.

Final encouragement If you're trying to write a powerful grad school essay under a word limit, here's what I want you to remember:

The word limit isn't there to restrict you.

It's there to reveal something important.

Can you communicate with clarity?

Can you choose what matters most?

Can you tell a focused story?

That ability is part of graduate school readiness.

So don't aim for an essay that includes everything.

Aim for an essay that includes what matters.

A few strong examples, written efficiently, will always outperform a long essay full of scattered details.

View Details

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can feel both exhilarating and overwhelming. On this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Marissa Charles, a current student in the Nurse Anesthetist (CRNA) program at the University of Michigan Flint, to explore the heart, grit, and strategies needed to thrive in grad school.

Marissa Charles shares a story that many prospective students will find deeply relatable. After completing her Bachelor's in Nursing and working for several years—including through the COVID-19 pandemic—she initially dismissed the idea of returning to school. "I always said I'd never be smart enough to be a CRNA," Marissa admits, pointing to the self-doubt that can plague even high-achievers. Her journey is a powerful testament to the idea that growth comes not just from academic readiness, but personal readiness. Sometimes, it's about timing and gaining confidence in oneself, rather than inherent capability.

A central theme throughout the episode is the importance of mentorship and community. Marissa credits much of her success to the robust support network within her program. From the moment students are accepted, they're paired with mentors who guide them not just academically, but through the personal transitions essential to thriving in an intensive program. Extra-curricular opportunities, like mixers with students from other universities, further broaden the sense of camaraderie.

Grad school is no easy path. Marissa emphasizes the necessity of balance, self-advocacy, and strong communication. She reflects on strategies for managing bumps in the road—whether it's an unexpected personal crisis or the all-too-familiar imposter syndrome. Her advice is universal: don't be afraid to reach out for help, and remember that setbacks are a normal part of the journey. Faculty, family, and peers are eager to support—you just have to take the first step.

Whether you are considering grad school, in the midst of a program, or mentoring others, this episode offers inspiration and practical advice. Marissa's narrative proves that with determination, support, and clear priorities, pursuing an advanced degree is not only possible, but rewarding.

Ready to find encouragement and actionable tips on your own grad school path? Tune in to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and join a community invested in your success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. So excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together. I say it's a journey, and I know every week I say this, but it is so true that you are on a journey. You've made a decision.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: Whether you are just the very beginning and you're just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in a graduate program. No matter where you are, this is a journey from start to end of that graduate degree, and there are things that you can do right now, today, to be able to find success sooner. And that's what this podcast is all about. I love meeting with you every week to be able to provide you some things to think about, some perspectives, some thoughts, and especially to bring you others that have gone before you that are either in graduate school now, they've gone to graduate school in the past, and they are excited to be able to share their own journey with you so that you can learn from it and maybe repeat some things, maybe not repeat some things, to be able to help you to make your journey as smooth as it can be. Today we got another great guest. Marissa Charles is with us, and Marissa is a student within the Nurse Anesthetist program at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to be able to talk to her and to learn more about her journey in and through graduate school. Marissa, thanks so much for being here today.

Marissa Charles [00:01:45]: Thank you, it is my sincere pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: I am really excited to be able to have you here today, and I think first and foremost, I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. You got a bachelor's degree in nursing at the University of Michigan Flint, and then you went off, you went off, you worked and started in your career, and at some point you made the decision for that you wanted to continue that education. Bring me back to that point, that point in your life where you said, "It's time." Why was it the time to make that jump? And what made you decide to go all in?

Marissa Charles [00:02:21]: 100%. So I graduated December of 2020, definitely a crazy time in the world. I became a nurse. I started working. I never said, "Go back to school, Dr. Lewis." I said I'd never go back. My bachelor's degree was enough. There's no way I'm doing it again.

Marissa Charles [00:02:37]: I graduated when I was 23, so I was working for a few years and I always said I'd never be smart enough to be a CRNA. And looking back at that is like, it makes me laugh because it shows just how you grow as a person truly through life. Because here I am, it's 2026 now. Um, in 2023, I finally made that decision where, hold on, it's not that I wasn't smart enough, it just was that I wasn't ready. I was a new nurse. I was coming outta nursing school, COVID was happening. We were seeing the sickest patients ever during that time. It was scary.

Marissa Charles [00:03:14]: And it's not that it wasn't smart enough, I just wasn't ready. So 3 years or 2, 2 and a half years into my nursing experience, I was looking around and I just felt as though I'm missing something, like something— I wanna do more. I want to advance my education. I feel as though I'm at a point in my clinical experience where I have truly become a clinician that was an expert within my critical care standards. So in 2023, I was like, I think it's time. I don't know what I wanna do yet, but it's something. And that's when I started looking at graduate programs around the state of Michigan, what was out there for nurses. There's a lot of different paths you can take.

Marissa Charles [00:03:59]: You can become a nurse practitioner. There is— perfusion, there's PAs, there's a lot you can do in graduate programs right now. And CRNA, I still felt like I wasn't smart enough for. So it took me about another year. In 2024 is when I finally was like, why not bite the bullet? Why not go for the hard road of what this program is? Because with a hard road comes a lot of feeling super good about yourself and confident and getting the most out of your education. So I decided in 2024 that I would start applying. And this process takes a long time. It's 2020, I started fall of 2025.

Marissa Charles [00:04:41]: So it does take a little bit of time to go from deciding you want to go back to school, getting your application in, getting an acceptance and starting. But here we are, you know, 2 years, January of '24 to January— February of 2026 to being in it. So that's a little bit of my story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:59]: And I, I've said that you are in the University of Michigan Flint's nurse anesthetist program, the CRNA program.

Marissa Charles [00:05:07]: CRNA program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:08]: And as you said, you did some research, you looked around, and I know that there are other CRNA programs in the state of Michigan that you could have chosen, and outside of the state of Michigan as well. So talk to me about that and what made you decide to not only apply to the CRNA program at the University of Michigan Flint, but also that once you got that acceptance, that, that was the program that was right for you.

Marissa Charles [00:05:33]: So, uh, there's 5 programs in Michigan, so you have a lot to choose from. And there's so many different reasons that you can look into different programs. Obviously I'm a little biased 'cause I spent my undergraduate program at the University of Michigan Flint. So I looked back and when I was in my undergraduate program, I was working alongside of anesthesia students. They were there with me during my undergrad. So I got to see a little bit of kind of what they did on a semi-day-to-day basis. But it really still wasn't a level playing field because it's been 4 or 5 years since I went to undergrad. I've been kind of all over the state of Michigan, but really the biggest thing that brought me back to Michigan, which is kind of what I love so much about my undergrad program, is truly the relationship that the faculty has with their students and how much importance we put on student-to-student relationships.

Marissa Charles [00:06:27]: And I'm gonna mention mentor, mentor, mentor probably a million times in the next 20 minutes that we talk, but our program, even before you start, they offer webinars, open houses, opportunities for you to meet the faculty to get an idea of who they are because you're applying to be in the program. It's just as much backwards. They want the best of the best to be in a program. And so it's just as much as me choosing them as it is they're choosing us. So I really, really love that about our program is the relationships that we build and then just how much importance we put on building relationships, mentorships, and then wellness is super huge. So after literally you got your acceptance letter, and then right before we start the program, they pair you up with a mentor and start building that relationship on how can we help you get through this next 3 years. And here's this person that's doing the same thing you're doing, but they're a little bit ahead of you, so they have a little bit of insight on how to get you through the program, which is super huge for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:31]: You've been successful. You made that transition in, you're going through the program right now. You're mentoring other students as well and helping other people in the program. So you've been able to find success thus far. But I also know that there is a transition. You went through a nursing degree, but just because you went through a nursing degree as an undergraduate student doesn't mean that the way you're being educated, the, the expectations of the faculty are going to be the same at the graduate level. And usually they're heightened to a much greater degree. So talk to me about that transition for yourself and what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and what have you had to do along the way as you've been going through this graduate program to help you find success?

Marissa Charles [00:08:17]: I think half of, like, our student success is a tad bit about our director, is our director has basically taught every single class in our program. So one thing that created such a success for us as a cohort is that the way that our classes are built and the way they're structured is to allow for that transition to happen. And I don't know if there's many other programs that can say that they have faculty that have truly taught everything and have reworked all of these classes to create student success. That first semester, most of us have been out of school for 3, 4, 5 years. And so building a first semester where you're learning how to be a graduate student again, learning how to stop working again, learning how to facilitate your life around being a student, but also you're still a partner or a mother or a dog mom. You're still the person you are outside of school, but being a student is 100% that first semester and what that looks like. So I'd say the biggest thing is providing us with support in that first semester and building a class list that is doable was super big. And then really the biggest thing is I am super crazy about looking ahead really far, just like mentally prepare yourself.

Marissa Charles [00:09:35]: Like right now I'm in my second semester and I'm looking at third already. I mean, we just started 5 weeks ago, but in order to be successful as a graduate student, you have to focus on what you're doing right now, but you have to be 3 or 4 steps ahead. So looking at— I'm starting clinicals in April. May, and knowing that I need to start mentally preparing myself for what does clinicals look like? What does creating lunches and being outside of the house a lot more, driving a lot more distances, things like that, to create a better, smoother transition for a student instead of it being very abrupt. So I'd say like, definitely, I love that our faculty have created a streamline of courses that really kind of ramp up just in the perfect amount each semester, but also being a productive student more than you were in your nursing program, where a lot of this is independent. They're not going to tell you exactly what you need to be doing at home and kind of figuring that out for yourself to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:35]: You also mentioned the fact that it was so important for you to have a mentor and that your program aligned you specifically with a student mentor, but there are also mentorships that you build in regards to the connections with your faculty members as well, and that's important too. So Talk to me about mentorship, and if your program is not offering you the type of formal program that, let's say, that you had in your program, what are some things that you've seen to be able to allow for you to be able to build relationships with others that you might not have been formally connected with before you were in the program?

Marissa Charles [00:11:11]: So our program sets you up with a mentor, and we— your mentor kind of chooses you in a way, and you're kind of connected on familiarity. So I was lucky enough to get a mentor that I actually was her trainer as an ICU nurse. I trained her and now it's her opportunity to give it back to me, which is super amazing. And I love that so much. But you're paired up with a mentor before you even start. And we meet them even before we start the program. They throw, uh, orientation meet and greet. And so it's an opportunity for us to say like, hey, like, what can I do before we start? What can I do in that first week of classes when Canvas opens finally? And we're so excited.

Marissa Charles [00:11:50]: How can I get ahead? Ahead. So that is super important. And then our faculty are super awesome, and every quarter they set up wellness days, and those wellness days are opportunities for all 3 years, for second and third year students to get together and continue to build those relationships. We have a mentor, but that's just one person, but there's 30 people in each year, so there's the opportunity for 100 of us to get together and, and build faces to names, names to faces, because ultimately we're going to be coworkers or we're gonna follow each other in clinical. We're gonna have opportunities to connect on different scales and being able to see each other, you know, once every quarter is super huge. So that is something that we do that I appreciate. But obviously there's opportunities outside of school that you kind of have to push yourself a little further to be able to make relationships with people while you're in a higher degree. So for example, with the nurse anesthesia programs, or I should say nurse anesthesia There's the Michigan Nurse Anesthetist, um, essentially board.

Marissa Charles [00:12:54]: Like everyone has like, as a board across the Michigan and we have MANA and there's MANA for students. And so I just came back last week. They had a meeting with all 5 programs. That's optional. You don't have to go, but why would you not take 4 hours out of a Friday night to go to a mixer of 5 different programs across the state of Michigan to pair up with these different students from different places? Because like I said, we met may end up being coworkers one day, or we may see each other in clinical, and being able to see how different programs are doing it and how are they getting through their 3 years to be successful in the program is super big to me. So going that extra step to doing those optional things that it's not mandatory, but it could otherwise increase your success in finding different things out from different people across all of Michigan.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:48]: And you're in a rigorous program, which is challenging in itself, but you're also a friend, you have family, you've got other hats that you're wearing. So talk to me about balance and how do you find balance in your school, your work, your family, and other personal responsibilities while you've been in graduate school?

Marissa Charles [00:14:09]: That is the question of the hour, Dr. Lewis. How do we do it? I think as a nurse, that's something that you inherently know because there's weeks where are tough weeks at work and you have to be able to kind of figure that out. You have to work overtime, or it's the holidays and you're balancing holidays with taking care of your own family. In the graduate program, it's harder in the aspect of you have to say no. You have to be able to know there's a priority. You have an exam on Monday, it's Saturday night, that I can't do that. But there's also Friday night I can, I just have to be responsible with my time.

Marissa Charles [00:14:48]: So I think it's definitely very difficult as a graduate student on having to say no and really create a balanced schedule, but I think it really starts before you start. We're super big at Michigan. We do a family meeting and it gives you the opportunity for our director to explain to our family members from her perspective, not ours, cuz we, I mean, we've explained this to our family probably a million times. This is gonna be hard. This is gonna be hard. But she speaks to our family and gives them basically a rundown of what it looks like to be a student and what her expectations of us are and what her expectations of them are. And it kind sets a precedent of it's not just me going through the program, everyone in your household's going through the program. It's just as difficult for those people around you as it is for you.

Marissa Charles [00:15:36]: So I think that, um, it does start before you start and kind of setting expectations. And if it ends up being a great semester and you end up doing more things, it's awesome. But knowing that at minimum, this is where I have to study, I have to set aside time. If I'm able to do more, great, but at minimum, this is what we have to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:55]: And setting those expectations, I think, are really important, not only for yourself, but also for your family and friends, et cetera. I tell students all the time that having those type of communication meetings, whether they're from a program to family members, it's even more important to have from student to family or friends as well, because you may set parameters at the beginning of a term without realizing or understanding what that term is really gonna be like. And what I try to make sure that any student thinks about is if things change, that's fine, but communicate it out. Because if you've promised to call mom every day of the week and you're only calling once a week, guess who's going to be really concerned when you're not calling? Mom's going to be concerned. So make sure that you're communicating and letting people know. They're not going to be upset with you. They're going to be more happy that you've communicated and that you're keeping them informed because they want to support you. And that's what this is all about, is that the people that have always been a support are going to continue to be your support, but they need to know how to support you through the process.

Marissa Charles [00:17:01]: Yep, 100%.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: I know that through the program sometimes there are bumps along the way and there are things that happen that are unexpected, whether it be a bad grade, whether it be a family issue, whether it be whatever. And I know that you even had some of those in your own experience. Talk to me about what you would say to other students that have those bumps in the road and what would recommend for students to do when that does happen?

Marissa Charles [00:17:28]: I think the biggest thing, like reflecting back on like those times, is like try— it's so hard in the moment when you feel like your world is crashing and you feel like so overwhelmed— is to like pull yourself out of it for 3 seconds and just like take a breather, relax. Because at the end of the day, the biggest thing about Michigan no matter if it was my undergrad or graduate program, is our faculty are there for you. And I think that it's, it's so funny because she— our director in our fac— CRSS— they say it so many times, and I understand now being on the other side of it and having to go to them why they say it so many times, because it's almost like ingrained into you at that point. So when you are so overwhelmed and you're so frustrated, you're going through something so difficult, it's so inherently easy to just reach out. And I think that, you know, 10, 20 years ago, that was— might not have been a thing. And so it's hard because the hardest thing to do is make the first step to like reach out and ask for help or reach out and say, I don't know what I need, but this is what's going on. And so that to me is like the, the easiest and the hardest thing to do is like take 5 seconds for yourself and just stop and like figure out who you need to talk to and talk to that person because you're not alone. This program, whether it's your support systems at home or your support system within your program, there's always someone someone there to talk to.

Marissa Charles [00:18:54]: And I think that that is the hardest thing, is like figuring out how to approach those people that you— they are your directors or your assistant directors, your faculty. They're up here and you're like, oh, I'm just so little, it's just me, like I don't want to bother them. But that's what they're there for, and I think it's so hard to overcome that. But now I understand why it's, it's so drilled into us so many times during our orientation, during any type of clinical, clinical prep workshop, is they just want to help. They're there to help you get through those hard points in life. So I think the hardest thing is, is to actually reach out, but once you do that, everything feels like it falls into place just as quickly as everything kind of blew up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:35]: And sometimes that will happen. And I'm not sugarcoating it for anyone. When you go through graduate school, life happens. And whether you like it or not, there could be really positive things, there could be things that are negative that may happen, one of the things that I would always tell a student to do is communicate, communicate with your program. Make sure to talk with your program about what is happening because your program wants you to be successful and the director, the staff, the faculty are going to try their best to be able to support you in that moment and to find resources for you in that moment. Sometimes, as Marissa just said, sometimes at that point in time you just can't think straight and you're thinking, I just need to fix I need to go, I need to do this, I need to go, go, go, and you're like, I'm out of here. Take that pause, send that email, pick up the phone, make the call, because if they know upfront there's going to be a lot more that they can do than if you just fall off the radar and are dealing with something that you should be dealing with. But if the program doesn't know that, that could impact you in many different ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:43]: So just like I was talking about communicating with family and friends, it's also important to communicate communicate with your faculty, with your director, with staff in the program, and to talk to them about things that are happening because they may or may not know what's happening with you personally. And that's up to you. That's your right. You can keep it to yourself, but the more that you are able to build that relationship, the more that they're gonna step in and be able to support you in the end. Now, one of the things that I'm interested in knowing as well is many students as they're going through— you talked about at the very beginning, always thinking that the CRNA RNA program was not something that you would be able to do because you didn't think you were smart enough. And there are many times when you go through graduate programs and graduate school itself that sometimes that self-doubt, that imposter syndrome, steps in, and it can rear its head in many different ways. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome or self-doubt reared its head for you, and how did you deal with it?

Marissa Charles [00:21:44]: We're in a rigorous program. We are in— I there's hundreds of people that apply to this program and ideally they're taking top 10%, 5%, 50%, whoever knows. And so day to day you're taking exams, you're comparing yourself to others. You're like, oh man, why didn't I get, you know, this question right? That person got it right. My grade is this grade, their grade's that— it's so easy to get so wrapped up in the minuscule details and feeling like you need to compare yourself to others. And this last 2 semesters, I'm gonna go back to our director. I love her. She has watched, you know, multiple years of students go through this program.

Marissa Charles [00:22:26]: And it feels like right at that time where you feel— we call it the valley of despair, that time where you feel yourself dipping and you're like, feel like you can't see the sun and you can't see when the next good day's coming. She gives us that inspirational message that we need, you know? And it's so— it's so— and she has it down to a science where just when you need that, that bump of inspiration of saying like, you know, you are— you're meant to be here. You are smart enough to be here. I picked you because I knew— I know you can do it. Let me know how I can get you through this because I know you can. It's just getting you the resources or figuring it out, right? It's, it's, it's so funny because I, I genuinely think she's done this and done it so well for so long that she knows just right coming into second semester. Students get so overwhelmed that first, second week that it's so much more material, so much more to do. And that's when we have that time with her to say like, no, you can do it.

Marissa Charles [00:23:31]: This is how we're gonna step back to be successful and not try to compare ourselves to others. Be the best person that you can be on your own is super huge because is imposter syndrome. That is the hardest thing to overcome before, during, and after this program. So just being able to kind of like point it out and see the red flags when they're coming is super huge for me. Sitting down, like pausing for a second and saying like, no, like I am doing the best I can. I'm here for a reason. I will be successful is super huge when you're by yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:06]: Now I know that you're currently in graduate school, you're working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. As you you think back to the experience that you've had thus far in your graduate education, and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's going into becoming a nurse— a nurse anesthetist, a physical therapist, getting an MBA, whatever it might be— what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Marissa Charles [00:24:32]: Put one foot in front of the other. I think that's the hardest part. I think, you know, we're all adults that are applying to graduate school. We all have jobs, we all have things going on, and I think the hardest— for people when they're applying to go back to school isn't necessarily the school. It's all the steps that you have to do to get back to school. It's the long application process. It's getting proof of all your documents. It's putting together records requests.

Marissa Charles [00:24:58]: One foot in front of the other, 'cause that's truly the hardest part. Write down that deadline. Make sure that deadline's on a huge sticky. Put reminders in your phone. It's all the little steps that it takes to get to where you wanna go. So that's probably my biggest thing is like, like you can do it. It just takes a lot of little steps to get to where you wanna be. And then I would say probably the second thing is try your hardest to, to build your application or build your process, build your resume to show who you are as a person.

Marissa Charles [00:25:29]: I think that's the hardest thing is the biggest question that people ask when they're applying to programs is like, how, how do I, how can I get in? Like, what can I do? And the biggest thing is trying your hardest to show who you are as a person who you are as a nurse, who you are as a student on paper is probably the hardest thing to do because that is all you are when you're compared to hundreds of people. You have to figure out how to display yourself the best that you can, whether that's in your essay or, or in your CV, is try your hardest to build that out to show who you are as a person.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:05]: Well, Marissa, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I know it's not over yet, but I'm I'm looking forward to being able to see you cross that stage here in the not too distant future. And I'm really appreciative of all that you said today as well, because as you mentioned, it's not always going to— there are going to be bumps in the road. It's important to have those mentors. And there's so many little pieces that you talked about today that I think are so important for any program and any student thinking about graduate school. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I wish you all the best.

Marissa Charles [00:26:35]: No problem. Thank you, Dr. Lewis. Always.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Navigating graduate school isn't a straight line—it's a journey full of turns, challenges, and unexpected lessons. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Rita Fields, a lecturer at the University of Michigan Flint's School of Management, to explore her unconventional, inspiring path through higher education. Whether you're already on your grad school journey, considering taking the leap, or supporting someone who is, this episode is brimming with honesty and actionable wisdom you won't want to miss.

Dr. Rita Fields candidly shares her beginnings as a high school dropout who returned to education, ultimately building a career in human resources and pushing herself to the highest academic levels—including earning a doctorate while juggling executive work and family life. One major theme is perseverance: She discusses the powerful role self-motivation and setting clear boundaries played in her success, especially when life threw unexpected hurdles in her way.

A key takeaway from the episode is the stark contrast between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral studies. Dr. Fields describes graduate school as "straight broth with no water added"—a deep, immersive experience that requires true engagement with your chosen field. Whereas undergraduate education is about finishing what you start and getting well-rounded, graduate studies demand critical analysis and, at the doctoral level, becoming the expert who can teach the topic.

Another highlight is the discussion about burnout and self-doubt. Dr. Fields is refreshingly honest about reaching points where she questioned her ability to go on, and even considered quitting. The key, she says, is being kind to yourself, setting and honoring boundaries, building a support system, and remembering that challenges and stress are inherent in all meaningful pursuits.

Finally, Dr. Fields offers clear advice: take graduate education seriously, resist the urge to just "check the box," and prioritize real learning over simply accumulating credentials. Understand your limits, be honest with yourself about your capacity, and remember—it's okay if your path takes a little longer.

Ready for candid insights, practical tips, and a big dose of inspiration? Listen to the full episode to hear Dr. Rita Fields' journey and discover how you, too, can chart your own successful grad school path—even when it gets tough.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. It's really important that you know that this is not a— always a— going to be a linear path. It may be a little bit circuitous. You may end up coming and going and getting different types of educational experiences along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: But hopefully you've done that work to be able to know what your goal is, and you find ways to be able to hit those benchmarks along the way to be able to help you to keep moving toward the goals that you have set for yourself. Every week I love being able to introduce you to new people with different experiences that have all had their own experiences in graduate school, And they're here to share that experience with you so that you can build some tools for your toolbox to help you in that journey that you're on. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Rita Fields is with us today. And Dr. Fields is a lecturer for— at the University of Michigan Flint. That basically means she's been teaching classes for a bit and she teaches a number of different areas within our School of Management.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to be able to talk to you about her experiences to have her here on the show this week. Dr. Fields, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Rita Fields [00:01:38]: You're so welcome. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: I am really excited to be able to have you here and to talk about your own journey. And I know I love starting the show with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. I know that you did your bachelor's degree down at Marygrove College in Detroit, and I know that at that time you got a Bachelor of Arts in English and Psychology. And then you went out, you got some experience, and along the way, at some point during that time that you were working, getting different experiences, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point. And what made it the right time, the right place for you to say, now I'm going to go back, I'm going to get that next part of my education? And, and take me back and talk to me about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:29]: Yeah, so that's interesting. I don't know if I've ever thought about that time isolated in the way that you just described. But when I decided to go back for my master's degree, I had a son who was 8, maybe? Somewhere along there? When I got my undergrad degree, he turned 5. And so it was about a couple years later-ish. And I had decided that I really appreciated and loved my undergraduate education at Marygrove, absolutely adored it, and that perhaps I should further myself to open more opportunities up for myself and to learn how far I could advance. At that point, I was already within my chosen field of human resources, and so I decided to go back to school to get a master's in human resources. And I was really grateful to do it. I'd read a lot about the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: I understood that there was— and, and came to confirm for myself that there's a huge difference between graduate school and undergrad. So I was really excited to embark on that journey. And it was a— it was good timing for me when I decided to go back.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now, I know you just said that you loved your experience as an undergrad, so that probably played into why you decided to get that master's degree at Marygrove College. Were there any other mitigating factors when you were looking at whether you wanted to go back to Marygrove, which is where you ended up deciding to go, or if you were considering other schools? And if so, what were you looking for in a program that you ultimately then decided on attending?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:13]: So yes, I did decide to stay at Marygrove, and I, I'll be honest, it was really nice. To contemplate getting that advanced degree in an environment that I was always really— always— I was already really comfortable with. So that was a huge selling point for me, that I understood the campus, I understood the way things worked, I knew the services that were available. Because I did have a young child at the time, I also knew that I had the ability to have childcare services if I had evening classes. So there were lots of elements of the campus that were very attractive to me. In terms of the degree program itself, I really wanted a rigorous program that allowed me to delve deeper into the wide expanse of knowledge that is human resources. Human resources is a very broad field, and so I wanted to make sure that I had a program that exposed me to people who were in the field, who were diverse and who would allow me to further my own professional life in such a way that the, the learning of the material would complement my practical application day to day. So I was really fortunate in that way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:39]: Now, down the road, you finished that degree and then you went and worked some more. You got some other experiences and down the road you said, I'm still not done, I'm going to keep going back. And this time I want to go and get a terminal degree. And I guess bring me back to that point. What was going on in your career? What was going through your head as you were saying to yourself, I'm not done, I want to continue and I want to keep pushing myself forward in this way?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So when I decided to go back for my doctorate, I was well into my career at that time. I was an executive actually, and I worked at Henry Ford Health System., and I was about to accept a position to open on the operational team to open their, their new hospital, which was Henry Ford West Bloomfield Hospital. So this was a couple— about a year or so before I went into that process. And I have to tell you, this might sound weird, but the reason I decided to go on to get my doctorate is because I just wanted to see what I could do intellectually. I, I'll bet you don't know this, I was a high school dropout. And so I was someone who— I left school the first day of my 12th grade year and I had a very tumultuous experience, but eventually I went back to school and I learned how incredibly important it was for me to maximize my learning potential and that, that helped me to deal with things that happened in my life that I didn't have any control over. But if I could figure out a way to understand it, if I could figure out a way to wrap my mind around how to procedurally advance in my career and to really delve deeply into what the possibilities were in my mind. I know that might sound weird or super nerdy or both, but that's really what initially made me think about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: I did take quite a bit of time trying to determine the type of program that I would go into. I knew I did not want a PhD. I know that's— I'm going to get some smoke about that, but I did not want a traditional PhD The thing that drew me to my program was the fact that it was a Doctor of Management, so it's a terminal degree. So it's still a doctorate, but it's not theoretically grounded, it's more grounded in practical application. So I fell in love with the program. I met amazing people. It was a cohort program. It is definitely the most difficult time I've ever had academically.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: It stretched me into intellectually beyond what I thought I was going to be able to do. And at a couple of points in the very beginning and right before I ended my coursework, I wondered if I was gonna be able to do it. It was just so difficult. I have one textbook that I still remember the COVID and the name of the book to this day. I literally read that book 4 times. I still have no idea what it was talking about. But I— so I got that weird thing that I wanted to get where I wanted to sort of see like, what— how far can I push myself intellectually? I definitely solved that question for myself with that doctorate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:06]: So now at every level of education, as you're transitioning into that degree and transitioning through that degree, there are transitions going from being an undergraduate student into a master's degree, a master's degree to a doctorate, the faculty require different things, they expect different things. And as a student, you have to be able to perform, you have to be able to lift yourself up to the level that you're being challenged to be at. So as you are going— as you went through those own— your own transitions for yourself, talk to me about what you had to do as you transitioned into those programs, and what did you have to do— going through the programs to be able to continue and maintain that success throughout the entire journey? And let me put one other caveat on it is because you did two other degrees, how was it different between what you had to do at the master's level and what you had to do at the doctorate level?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: First of all, I always tell my students that there are differences in the levels of education. So when you go into the undergraduate environment, it's it's really about being able to complete what you start, right? I think that's why a lot more people start undergrad degrees than finish them. Like, dramatically more people start than finish. And so merely finishing a multi-year course is really impressive and somewhat rare, unfortunately. I, I wish it were more common, but it is not because you have to go through remaining committed. The undergrad degree experience is normally much more rich with courses that aren't necessarily tied to your major, but they're supposed to round you out a bit. That's the way that I would describe it. Your master's degree is really like a deep, concentrated deep dive.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:55]: So it's like, um, it's like straight broth with no water added. It's just undiluted major. So hopefully you like that major. If not, you're really gonna get irritated really, really quickly. And then the master's degree, I try to explain to my students is like— the difference between that and the undergrad degree is that an undergrad degree, you pretty much have to prove that you can take in information and that you have digested that information and give it back in some form. The master's degree, in my experience, is that you're able to take in information, to digest it, and then perhaps to analyze it from different perspectives. Is there a different way to look at this? Is there anything missing from that? The doctorate degree is at the pinnacle of the learning ladder because you not only have to take in the information, analyze it, resource it, you have to go through some type of a vetting process where you make sure that the doctoral level, uh, or the information that you're learning at the doctoral level, is that valid? You have to determine whether or not you are looking at seminal leaders within your particular field and, and what they said, and is there anything that's missing? So it's having to digest information to a point where you could potentially get to the point— well, not even potentially, but you could get to the point, because once you defend your dissertation, you should be an expert at your topic, where you could teach that topic. And when you are able to fully teach, you are able to show the different complexities and nuances that are really inherent in any topic that you want to explore.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:40]: So I think that— but in terms of your final bit, in terms of how I tried to prepare myself for each level, I think when I went into my master's degree program, I still had the undergraduate mindset. And so I was able to relax a bit because I was— everybody in class was interested in the same master's degree. So there wasn't quite as much diversity in terms of experience. We all sort of worked in the same field. And so it was almost like this really beautiful sense of camaraderie that I got because at the master's level, that's really what that's about. At the doctorate level, it's pretty much like you're on your own. Like, you're— like, let's just say you're this, this— your mom has puppies and the puppies are the other people in your cohort, and she sort of leaves you outside in the storm for like 5 years. That's, that's pretty much what it feels like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:31]: You have to figure stuff out yourself No one is going to come and check on you. I remember registering for writing semesters for my doctorate and there were no instructors. I just had to pay to write it, which I thought was absolutely insane. The level of support mechanisms start to diminish a bit because you're moving into this space where you should be more self-directed. And by the time you get to your doctoral level, that's also probably why there are people who are ABD for 25 5 years, which is not something to brag about, by the way. The only time it's great is when you're ABD right before you finish it. After that, it's like, oh, you— so you never finished, huh? So it's really, really hard, and you have to be internally motivated. And so it really taught me how to keep myself on pace and to become even more organized and really respect the journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I will say that in my own doctorate experience, I will say that if you're in a doctorate program with a cohort for your coursework, those individuals do become a core group and they do tend to push you along through the coursework and support you. It's after you get out of the main coursework and as Dr. Fields was talking about, you get into that writing, there's a lot more self-push that has to happen. Doesn't mean that your cohort doesn't check in every once in a while because sometimes they will and be like, hey, where's everybody? But that being said, it becomes much more on you. And you and your dissertation chair in having a conversation and being able to set benchmarks and make sure that you keep pushing yourself to meet the benchmarks so that you don't remain, as Dr. Field says, ABD. I always say ABD is all but done, and that's true because it's all but dissertation, but ABD also could mean all but done, and you don't want to end up ABD. You want to end up finished with a degree in hand, especially if you're putting the time and effort in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:37]: Now, One of the things that I hear from a lot of students as they go— are moving into a master's degree, a doctorate degree, as they go through these degrees, is that there is a point in time where they have self-doubt. There's a point in time where they feel, I'm going to say, imposter syndrome, where they may question and say, am I good enough? Should I be here? Why did they select me? Talk to me about how that self-doubt or imposter syndrome crept into your own experiences. In graduate school? And what did you do? And how did you deal with that as you were going through your own programs?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]: I'm gonna be honest with you, I didn't experience imposter syndrome. And it could be because when I took the GMAT, which was a requirement for my doctoral program, I passed the writing part within the 5th percentile or something, did really, really well with writing, and I bombed pretty much the rest of the thing. I mean, like, I just totally— and I was like, well, you know, hey, we can't all be perfect at everything. And So I was aware of that from the very beginning. I knew I could write. I knew I was very good at reading and context. And I knew that even though my doctorate was a business degree, my master's was a business degree too, but my doctorate was, was much more intensive in, in the business curriculum. So I knew that if I could get past all of the courses in econ and the other deep strategic courses that were part of my doctoral curriculum that I could write my dissertation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]: So I viewed it from that perspective. So I never felt like I didn't belong there. I always felt like I represented the liberal art faction because both of my undergraduate degrees were in liberal arts. I had written so many papers I'd lost count. So I was very comfortable from that vantage point, but I also had members of my cohort who were diehard practitioners, who had been in the business world for a very long time, who maybe didn't read as many books, but they had very different experiences. Where I think I was most challenged in my degree was towards the end. It was probably right before I wrapped up completing all of my coursework, which for those of you who aren't aware— well, in my program anyway, you had to go go through 2 years of coursework, and then I went through 3 years of writing my dissertation. 3 years, y'all, not 3 months.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:08]: It took 3 full years of writing. But right before I completed my coursework, I was an executive at Henry Ford Health System, and we were opening a hospital, and it was getting really, really tight. There was so much work that goes into that, so many meetings, So many late nights. I happened to be going through a divorce at the same time, which in and of itself is— can be extremely traumatic. It's very tiresome. And I was— I was supposedly wrapping up my coursework, and I remember thinking to myself, I don't know if I can do this. I think I might have to drop out. And I thought about it for a little while, and then I asked myself, would you be okay with yourself in 5 years if you dropped out now? And I wisely answered to myself that I would not be okay if I did that, and then I was gonna do everything that I could.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: So I had to really double down on my boundary setting. I had to double down on devoting time to study because we had our qualifying exams, which are these major tests that you get during the doctorate. We had them So my coursework was 2 years. I had one set at the end of the first year and one set at the end of the second year, and they were so difficult. I still remember one of the questions, and the answer to the question was 22 pages handwritten in a book. It was insane. If I told you the question, you would get angry about it. Don't— I think about it, it makes me mad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: But so I had to buckle down, I had to study it. My doctoral program was the first time I ever really had to to study. I know that sounds like a flex, but it's not cool to find out that you don't know how to study when you're in your doctoral program. Um, other than that, I, you know, I read a lot, and I, you know, I was really good at context. So I, I would have to create ways to force myself to retain lots of information in the midst of all of these professional and personal challenges. So that was the time at which I thought I might drop out. I'm so incredibly grateful that I did not. I pushed through, and it is the only B+ on my doctoral transcript, which, you know, I tell students also all the time, you know, people are so into their grades.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:27]: I'm like, look, let me tell you something, grades matter, but sometimes you might have a B+— like, that B+ on my transcript is my proudest grade because I was going to quit and I didn't, and I did the absolute very best I could under incredible circumstances. And I pulled out a B+. So I'm good with it. So that, that would be my— but yes, I'm— it's certainly not unusual to feel those types of challenges. And quite frankly, even though I was in a cohort and it was wonderful, and I'm still friends with a lot of the people that were in my cohort to this day, we also had several people drop out. So that's not exactly motivating when you're sitting with a group of 11 people and then 3 of them say, you know what, this is insane, I'm not doing it. You sort of wonder Are they crazy or am I crazy? I mean, so it was, it was, uh, complicated, but thankfully it worked out in the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:24]: Now I know that you were working while you were going through these type of programs, and that takes a lot of balance in being able to wear the multiple hats that you wear to be able to be there for the people around you, the friends, the family, and more, as well as to be the employee, the student, et cetera. So talk to me about balance, what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance, whatever that definition is, and what were some of the things that you had to do to be able to maintain that throughout your different graduate school experiences?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]: Yeah, that's a great question. So I believe very strongly in having boundaries, and I know that's something that a lot of people struggle with. I'm not typically one of those people, and I really learned how to do that in graduate school. When you're— in graduate school and there are so many things, particularly as you get closer to the end. As my students may recall, I often refer to it as senioritis. You think, oh, I'm almost done, like, this is gonna— I'm gonna skate my way through. That's sort of where a lot of people fall off, right? Because they are really close to the end, and you do not want to get that close to the end and then sort of flake out. So I was really good at boundary setting when I graduated with my master's degree is when I got married the first time, and I actually told my fiancé at the time that I was not going to be able to plan our wedding.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: So if he wanted to get married, he could either wait until I got my master's or he could plan it himself. And so he chose B, which was fine with me. I picked the dress and then I showed up. So I think you have to be honest with people in your life that there are a lot of things going on. You have to Have those boundaries. But I also think it's really important to give yourself periods where you just sort of rest and take a break. You can't just plow through everything and assume that you're a robot. It will not happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:23]: Your body will literally shut down on you, and you could get really sick. I actually got sick after each of my qualifying exams, like really sick. And so I became much more aware of building for myself a carrot versus carrots stick system, which in the industry basically means something that you like— which is weird because I hate carrots— versus something that you don't like, like the stick, to like, you know, be somewhat punitive. So I would allow myself to enjoy certain things and give myself a break, and then I would get back to work. So I think it's really important to have a support system in your life where people are going to let you know that you're doing well and that you can continue to do but even if no one does say that, I think it's really important for you to understand that for yourself because at the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:15]: end of the day, you're the one doing the work. You definitely are doing the work and it, it will be challenging as you go through and you'll be pushed in many different ways. And there's times in which you may even have points of burnout where you're, you're chugging along and you're working hard and, and you hit that proverbial wall for yourself. Talk to me about burnout for yourself and how did you avoid burnout or recover from it when you felt overwhelmed?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:44]: Oh yeah, I definitely experienced burnout. I'm pretty good at managing boundaries, but being able to manage boundaries doesn't inoculate you from having to feel the effects of stress. So I crashed a couple times. I remember at one point during— I'm— the most difficult, well, during my master's degree, I actually had to take a year off from my master's degree because a member of my family had a mental mental health crisis that was incredibly serious, and I was the person that had to manage it, and I simply could not balance everything. So I actually did have to step away. I did come back, but that was very significant because typically master's degrees are 2 years, so that's a long time. And for my doctorate degree, I didn't drop out, but because I had so many things going on, I remember I ended up— I don't want to scare anybody, but I ended up in the the emergency room once. I lost hair.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:48]: I would sit and my hands would be shaking like I was on a roller coaster ride. I was deeply stressed. And as much as it was uncomfortable, obviously, what I learned from that was how deeply connected my mental state was to my physical state. And that even if in my mind I could write off sort of dealing with things— I had a very high tolerance for the machinations of life— I really still had to take care of my body. I had to make sure I drank enough water. I had to make sure that I slept. I had to make sure that I tried to nurture myself as much as possible. I, I don't know if it's possible to avoid burnout in any situation that is worth having.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:37]: —right? And so if you think of eustress versus stress, which some have characterized as positive stress, if you get married, you're going to be burnt out. If you have kids, you're going to be burnt out. If you have a dog, you're going to get burnt out. So it makes sense that the things worth having also have an accompanying amount of stress associated with it. I think being kind to yourself and really dedicating yourself towards recovery is the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]: key to get past it. It is hard, and I'm not saying that to scare anyone off from grad school. There are going to be times that are going to be harder than others, but in anything that is worth doing, there will be times that will be harder than others, whether that's education, your work, your family, your friends, you know, no matter what, as you go through life, you know this, and it is definitely going to be the case in grad school as well. Now, I guess Dr. Fields, as you think back to your graduate experience and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school and you think about success and things that they can do to be successful, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:49]: I think take it seriously. You really need to take it seriously. I am not an advocate of check the box degree accumulation. You want to learn. And as I often also say to my students, I had a dear, cherished professor who said to me once that learning is the attachment of meaning to otherwise useless information. And so that has never failed in being true in my life. And so it's really important to understand that you are supposed to learn this information, um, and that that will help you. It, it will not help you if you don't do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: And there's so many different ways that people try to cut corners that they just try to push past the learning experience. I can tell you as someone who has hired literally thousands of people in my career, people who are differentiated in the work environment are people who are conscientious about what they do. And so if you apply that to your learning, you can only benefit from that. I am an educated person, not just because I have degrees on the wall, but because I learned the material and that, that exercise of learning, it's one of the most valuable things that I have. And so I would encourage people to do that. I know that might sound very basic, but that is pretty clutch. The other thing that I would do is encourage you to be honest with yourself about your capabilities. I think sometimes people take a lot of classes and they really shouldn't take a lot of classes in that particular term because they've got a lot of stuff going on, and it doesn't go well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:32]: And you— one could assume that it's not gonna go well if you have like a newborn baby and you decide to take 7 classes. Those things don't tend to mix. So think through what you're capable of doing, and if it takes you a little bit longer, then it takes you a little bit longer. When I was in undergrad, you know, I got my degree in 4 years, my undergrad degree, and that was like the standard. Now I hear that it's 5 to 6 or more, right? I mean, that's for undergrad degree, let alone master's degrees or, or doctoral degrees. And so I think you have to be kind to yourself because being kind to yourself in terms of your true time commitment will make the learning experience an easier, more beneficial one for you as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:15]: Well, Dr. Fields, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing your pieces of advice and everything that shared with our listeners today. I know that this journey, like I said, is not a circu— it's a circuitous path. It is not a straight line. And as you said in yours, you definitely had some curves along the way, but you made it and you were successful. And I appreciate you sharing that journey with us and for helping others to be able to maneuver that path for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:45]: And I wish you all the best. Thank you so much. And thank you for having me and go blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:49]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you considering taking the next big step in your educational journey? Whether you're just starting to think about graduate school or already knee-deep in your studies, the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is packed with insights you won't want to miss.

In this episode, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Steven Foster, Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss what it truly takes to thrive in graduate school. Their lively conversation weaves through Steven's personal journey—from earning his bachelor's in English Language and Literature, jumping straight into the workforce, and then making the pivotal decision to return for his master's in Educational Leadership at Wayne State University.

One major theme is the importance of having a clear motivation for pursuing graduate studies. As Steven Foster shares, his return to school was sparked by an early realization that additional credentials would be crucial for career advancement and personal growth. This combination of upward and social mobility, practical experience, and a passion for educational outreach shaped his path and success (02:16).

Discipline, curiosity, and organization are highlighted as the bedrock skills for anyone navigating graduate school. Steven Foster emphasizes that being disciplined and staying organized are essential, especially when juggling work and academic responsibilities (06:45). He notes, "Being disciplined, being curious, being open… those skill sets are extremely important in your journey."

Another key takeaway is the role of community and support systems. Graduate school can be overwhelming, and imposter syndrome is a common stumbling block. Steven Foster candidly discusses how self-awareness, open communication, and fostering connections with peers and mentors can provide the reassurance and encouragement needed to push through challenging moments (10:30).

Listeners will find practical advice throughout, from evaluating graduate programs and career prospects to leveraging faculty relationships and embracing opportunities for professional and personal development. Steven Foster encourages prospective students to research institutions thoroughly and think beyond just degree requirements—consider how the experience can open doors to consulting, teaching, volunteering, and more (17:03).

If you're seeking inspiration, reassurance, or actionable tips for your graduate school journey, this episode is for you. Tune in and let Steven Foster and Dr. Christopher Lewis guide you through the path to graduate school success—because your journey is uniquely yours, and with the right tools and mindset, you can be victorious too!

Click here to listen and start your journey to grad school success today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are on a unique journey, something that you are going to be going through, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about graduate school, or maybe you've applied, maybe, maybe you've been accepted. You could be in any of these places, you could even be in graduate school. But throughout all of this, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: And through this journey, there are things that you can do to be able to help you to be successful along the way. And that's why this show exists. Every week I love being able to bring you different pieces of advice, different thoughts, different perspectives, and also different people that have gone before you to be able to give you some perspectives on their own experience going through graduate school. This week we got another great guest. Stephen Foster is with us, and Stephen is the Director of Financial Aid at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have him here to tell you about his own experiences going through graduate school. And to welcome him to the show. Stephen, thanks so much for being here.

Steven Foster [00:01:24]: Thank you, Kris, for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: I am really excited to be able to have you. And one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time, and I want to go back a little ways because I know you did your undergraduate work, and after you went through that experience and got that Bachelor of Arts in English Language and Literature, you went off and got a job. You went off and worked, and you jumped into the world of financial aid.

Steven Foster [00:01:49]: I did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: And you never looked back. But one of One of the things that I want to do is ask you about this point in time, because there was a point in time that you were working, you're out there, but at some point you had this inkling that you needed to go back. You wanted to continue. You had to scratch that itch for going back and getting more education. And I guess bring me back to that point and what made you decide that that was the right time, the right place?

Steven Foster [00:02:16]: You know, thank you, Kris, and I'm excited to be here just to share some of my experiences. And I did receive my undergrad from University of Michigan, graduated with my master's in educational leadership from Wayne State University. And what really inspired the additional need for education is I knew that at one point in my career I was going to need it for that upward mobility, that social mobility, and having the credential, right, makes it a little bit easier, right, to give you the practical hands-on experience, to give you the theoretical aspect side, educational leadership research, to give you the technical pieces that you need to be a, a successful administrator and leader. So I knew that early on in my career because I actually started my graduate program and my graduate work about 2 to 3 semesters out from my undergrad after graduating. So I knew, I just knew early on that, hey, I need this credential, I'm going to need this credential along the way to help me to advance. And so I went to work during the day, and as soon as I was done at work during the day, I would go right into classes in the evening. And I guess early on it helped me because I still had some level of discipline as a student from my undergraduate experience. So I think that helped me a little bit along.

Steven Foster [00:03:49]: The way in order to help me to, to push through to my master's to completion.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:54]: Now, I know you did your master's degree at Wayne State University and you got a Master of Education in Educational Leadership and Administration, and there are a lot of programs that are in the Master of Ed space and you chose Wayne State. So bring me back to that point. And when you were thinking about looking at, you know, pers— all the different prospective universities, what made you decide on Wayne State University? What made it stand out? And talk to me about that process for yourself.

Steven Foster [00:04:23]: Yes. So I was looking at several programs and I really wanted to go into education. I wanted to go back in— I wanted to go in a K-12 setting. So I actually was looking at master's for teacher certification programs and I was looking at the University of Michigan. I also was looking at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill. I looked at Michigan State University and ultimately landed at Wayne State University for actually selfish reasons. It was a tremendous benefit called, uh, educational benefit, and it kind of altered my plans from, uh, going into the classroom and really finding my passion in the higher education side of, of education where I could affect change, where I could help students— be that bridge and bridge that gap to students to promote higher education and to promote education from a different lens, um, besides going into the classroom. So that's what kind of detoured me.

Steven Foster [00:05:29]: It was actually the benefit of getting my degree paid for, but also I really got a passion for educating students how to think about college affordability, how to think about college finance, and how to plan for college, how to be successful in college and looking at higher ed. From the outreach side of things and being a bridge and being a spokesperson about the many benefits of receiving a higher education degree can bring to students and their families.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:02]: Now, going from undergrad to grad, you said that it had been a few terms out from when you graduated to when you started. And when you go into a graduate program, there definitely is a transition because it's a different way of being taught, a different— level of expectations by faculty members and a different level of expectation on yourself for what you're trying to achieve. So talk to me about those transitions. And as you transitioned into graduate school and through graduate school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you add to— have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the graduate school journey?

Steven Foster [00:06:45]: The biggest thing, or the number one thing that comes to my mind, is being disciplined. Being disciplined, being curious, being, being open. Because when you go undergrad or grad, I think grad is, uh, of course, higher thought processes. It's a lot of reading, it's a lot of theory, it's a lot of hands-on practice. So a combination of all of that, but being disciplined and organized. Those skill sets are extremely important in in your journey, definitely if you're transitioning back into the grad space after you've been out of school a number of years, staying on top of your assignments, staying on top of your reading, asking questions. You know the saying, there's no such thing as a dumb question, right? But having that intellectual curiosity that there are many different paths to ultimately get to where you want to be, but how you actually perceive the world of, of grad school, whatever your discipline is of study. It could be health sciences or education, social work or business, that there is some level of curiosity and exploration in coming to find out where are you the master at? What is your subject matter expertise? What are those things that interest you to where you say, I'm going to be the subject matter expert in this? It just opens your doors for possibilities to so many things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:12]: You know, as you talk about that, you know, you're working on a master's degree and there's some internal thought that when you are being admitted into a master's program, you are becoming a master of something, which is sometimes a little dodging when you think about it to be called, eh, I'm the master of nothing. I'm a master of none. I guess when you went into that master's degree and as you're going through this coursework and you're seeing yourself in a different way, talk to me about that transition for yourself as an individual and as a professional and how that graduate degree helped you to either refine or redefine who you were at the time and who you were becoming?

Steven Foster [00:08:53]: I think for me, and that— I think that's an excellent question. I think that it actually allowed me to refine, but not only refine, it's so many aspects to a master's degree and to graduate education that depending on what class you are taking or depending on what season you are in, in your life and how it benefits you in that moment. So for me, because I was so early on in my career, it allowed me to kind of shape how I wanted to be perceived as a professional. It kind of shaped my modus operandi in order to be an asset and be beneficial to all of the families that I serve and, you know, faculty working with different constituencies in higher education, working— how do you have conversations with Congress versus your faculty? And, you know, dealing with some of the nuances of how do you handle a sensitive student case to a parent that just wants basic information. So it gives you a breadth and a depth in order for you how to be successful, right? And how to apply the knowledge that you acquire.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: Now, every individual, as they're thinking about graduate school, as they're going through graduate school, ends up hitting a point in time where whether it's you're seeing yourself as a master of something or you are just going through that first course where you feel that imposter syndrome and you go through this process of questioning, "Should I be here? Am I good enough?" All of those different thoughts that go through your head. Talk to me about how imposter syndrome impacted you and what you had to do to get through it.

Steven Foster [00:10:30]: At points in all of our careers in education, as, as we're matriculating into degree programs, you know, on our jobs and our careers, maybe even in our households, there is always a bit of self-doubt in us. I could have handled that situation better, or how could I have accomplished that in a different manner? So I think that we have imposter syndrome across everything that we do, whether it's a volunteer experience, professional experience, personal experience. But for me, how I really overcame it was through self-awareness. But not also self-awareness, it's really also grasping on to like individuals. So a lot of times you're in classes with the same people. A lot of programs are cohort-based. My program was not necessarily cohort-based, but really having those conversations and building support systems to help you through. Sometimes you have to talk stuff through with a gamut of people.

Steven Foster [00:11:33]: That could be your classmate, it could be your spouse, it could be your therapist, it could be your faculty your lead, or, you know, your advisor, or those things. So it's those people that help you along the way to be successful, but to also ground you and reel you back in when you need that reassurance. So my word of advice to people is don't be afraid to talk about the challenges that you are having. If you're in a grad program, or if you're in that space that you feel that imposter syndrome, you probably need to get it out, to express yourself, to make you feel a little bit and tackle it head on so that you don't continue to— some people, you know, beat, beat themselves up, not literally, but from that perspective. But talk to someone because someone else is also in your same shoes. And that's what I did. Latched on to some of my classmates, made sure, you know, we had regular conversations, you know, healthy debate about the work, about the assignments, about, you know, some of the challenges that we were experiencing in order to be successful. And, uh, one of the things is I was also— I was somewhat younger than some of my classmates at the time.

Steven Foster [00:12:45]: I'm a little bit older now, but that wasn't the case when I started my master's program. I was in a class with professionals who had been working 20, 30 years at that point, and they were just starting to come back for their credential, right, for their upward mobility. And here I am, this young, spry kid coming in on the scene, and I'm in these rooms with people people who have double and triple the experience that I have, what am— how can I ever bring the value and knowledge of the experiences that, that they have? So it is a— it can be an overwhelming process, but you just have to get in where you fit in is the perfect way for me to put it. You don't have to try to over, um, outdo or outshine. Based on the little experience that I had, I still was able to contribute to the conversation in a meaningful and way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:40]: Now, as you think back to the beginning, before you even started graduate school, I'm sure you had some conversations with friends, with colleagues, with others that could give you their own perspectives. And if you think back to that very beginning, what's something that you wish that someone had told you, or that you had known prior to starting graduate school that would have helped you to make that transition even better?

Steven Foster [00:14:02]: I really do believe that it was just a little bit different for me because I was passionate about education. I was getting— I had hands-on work experience. I was, I was still working and going to school. So it wasn't like I wasn't working and only going to school or went straight through. I was able to apply what I was learning in my actual day-to-day. That made my experience even more successful or more better for me as I was talking to professors and things of that nature. Definitely at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor at the time, you know, and advisors and things of that nature, their thought process was learning experience is, it's an ongoing process, right? That curiosity for exploration and for learning is important. So they, they stress the importance of, if this is the path you want to take, you have to do this, or you have to do that.

Steven Foster [00:14:55]: So they were actually my biggest cheerleaders in making sure that I was successful in my on-ramp to my grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:02]: Well, it's always good to have those mentors and those people that help you to maneuver into figure things out along the way. And you also build relationships with faculty along the way as well. Talk to me about those relationships that you were able to build with faculty or with peers inside of your program. And how was that impactful in the experience that you went through?

Steven Foster [00:15:26]: My relationship with my faculty advisor was, was tremendous because I was able to meet with them on a regular basis and have thoughtful conversation about what is it that I can do with this credential, what What paths make sense for me from a career perspective? What are the different things that I can do outside of my career? You know, what, what does it mean to go in consulting? I always think that ultimately I wanted to go and be a professor. I have started a PhD a while ago and opportunity came along and I put that on pause, but it's always the, the opportunity for them to share their experiences and based on the skills assets that you have, them to kind of guide you through some of those things. And that's what I'll always appreciate about definitely some of the faculty that I have connected with on a basis as a student, that they are always trying to get the best out of you, whatever that is for you as an individual. It's not, you know, they're not selling anything, they're not selling you any fairy dust and unicorns or anything like that, but they're trying to get the best out of their students. And that was the experience that I had.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: And I guess finally, as you look back on your own experience, you were successful in the journey that you went through. And as you think back, I guess, to the entire experience and you look at where you are today and you think about people that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Steven Foster [00:17:03]: Some tips is research your institutions. Research your programs, look at the viable career paths that you want to go into, and look at the plan B or look at the— what's the side hustle that I can do from this degree that will produce additional streams of revenue, additional income based on the degree that you do have? Opportunities for consulting, opportunities for part-time or work from home opportunities from whatever the deal degree program is because for me, graduate education, it opens the door even more to more possibilities than your bachelor's degree a lot of times. And that upward mobility and that social mobility is very important for our students that we serve. So you want to make sure that this is something that you're truly passionate about, but that it opens other doors and opportunities for you to get the best well-rounded experiences that you need in order to be successful, maybe in your main career. But there are also branches that shoot off from that main career— speaking engagement, teaching opportunities, professorships, consulting opportunities, volunteer opportunities on boards and different things of that nature in order to help nonprofits and stuff grow depending on whatever your discipline is. So you're volunteer, you're professional. Experience, your community experience, all of that makes you a well-rounded person. And it gives us a personal ethos for us to be change agents in that you are in the world to shed your light and shed your experience in whatever direction that is and works best for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:45]: Well, Stephen, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And, you know, I'm going to continue to encourage you now that I know that you started a PhD to keep going. I'm looking— not to stop out, but always keep going, always keep pursuing, and don't, and don't give up.

Steven Foster [00:19:01]: Absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: So that being said, I thank you for your time today, and I wish you all the best.

Steven Foster [00:19:06]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

View Details

Are you thinking about going to graduate school, or already on the journey and searching for motivation? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School offers both inspiration and practical advice. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with John Ambrose, Vice Chancellor for Enrollment Management at the University of Michigan Flint. Through vulnerability and candor, John Ambrose unpacks his non-linear path to academic and professional achievement, and why graduate school was transformative for him.

A recurring theme throughout the episode is resilience. As a first-generation student, John Ambrose openly discusses the difficulty of navigating higher education "without the right mentoring and information," sharing a raw moment of feeling "trapped" after changing majors and needing additional years to finish his undergraduate degree (02:23). Despite setbacks and personal loss, including the passing of his father during his freshman year, John Ambrose pressed on, motivated to create meaning and success for himself.

The transition into graduate school wasn't easy. John Ambrose recounts taking a pay cut to accept a job that would fund his master's, balancing the demands of work, school, and family – at times, facing weekends packed with study and few breaks (09:41, 22:36). For anyone hesitating to return to school later in life, his advice is honest: "It's not that you can't do it, but what are the adjustments that I need to make?... What is this going to mean for your family?" (21:13). Preparation and honest communication with one's support network are crucial.

Another highlight is John Ambrose's perspective change from undergraduate to graduate studies. He describes the graduate experience as "fun," especially the value of discussion-based learning and the satisfaction of intellectual exchange (10:18). He notes that beyond credentials, graduate school is about personal development and acquiring soft skills—listening, confidence, grit, and the ability to articulate your experiences. "[Graduate school] is an opportunity to develop yourself and to provide opportunities for you to become a different type of version of yourself," he reflects (24:29).

This episode isn't just for prospective students—it's for anyone seeking to find meaning in growth, overcome setbacks, and make purposeful choices about the next stage in life. Tune in to hear an inspiring journey that proves success isn't always linear—and graduate school can be about so much more than a degree.

Listen to the full episode and let John Ambrose's journey empower your own.

TRANSCRIPT

John Ambrose [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we're on a journey together. I say it every week, but it is so true that the— that what you're doing right now as you are preparing to think about— either think about graduate school, apply to graduate school, go through graduate school— it is a journey. And that journey might take you a year to get into graduate school, it might take you 2 years, 3 years, who knows. No matter where you are on this path, there are things that you can do right now to help you to be successful ultimately in the journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: And that's why this show exists. This show exists to help you to find some tools for your toolbox to help you to be able to to find success sooner. We do that many times through opportunities for you to meet others that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, have been successful in graduate school, and they can share that experience with you. And today we've got another great guest with us. I'm really excited to be able to have John Ambrose with us. And John is the new Vice Chancellor for Enrollment Management at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have him here to be able to share with you his journey in going through graduate school and how that's led him to here at University of Michigan Flint. John, thanks so much for being here today.

John Ambrose [00:01:33]: Dr. Lewis, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here today. And I am going to start this interview with an opportunity to go back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at Western Michigan University and then— yes, go Broncos! We both have that connection that we're both Broncos and I guess I wanna go back in time to that point when you were at Western, and then after Western, you went off, you worked for a while, and at some point, some point in that work experience, you made a choice, you made a decision that you were going to continue your education and continue your education in a completely different area than what you did as an undergraduate student. So bring me back to that point when you were having that inkling in your mind, and what made you decide that that was the right time —to go to graduate school?

John Ambrose [00:02:23]: Oh, man. Uh, days in Kalamazoo were an amazing time for me. That was an opportunity where I like to say I, I was reared in Detroit, but I was trained in Kalamazoo. In terms of adulting, as the young people use, uh, that term today, it took me 6 and a half years to get my 4-year degree from Western Michigan, mostly because I changed my major, but I only changed it once. And I was required to almost go back from square one. Uh, very few of the credits that I had earned prior to were allowed in my new major. And so it, it was a difficult decision, but as a first-generation student, then you're doing your best to negotiate and navigate, and all the information you're getting is not necessarily accurate. So I just found myself having to make an adult decision in the moment.

John Ambrose [00:03:14]: So I remember very vividly going out and sitting on the curb and crying. And I got myself together after I cried about it. And it was, you know, it was almost like I felt like a sit— like I had just been sentenced to 4 more years of jail. And not that I hated it, but it just— I felt trapped, to be honest, if I'm being honest about the emotions that I felt. But I was like, okay, you're— this is it. I mean, this is what I have to do. And I had gotten myself into that position primarily because a little bit of it was academics, A lot of it was just the lack of mentoring that I had and the lack of sharing and feeling like I was the only one. But those are the types of things that first-generation students will face at moments in their educational journey.

John Ambrose [00:03:58]: But stood up, dropped my face off, went to the bathroom, washed it, and came back and signed up and said, okay, let's do it. So I did my 4 years, and at that point I thought, I'm never coming back to college again. But I was so focused on my career that when I got ready to graduate, I don't already done in, in excess of 12 different internships all over the place, trying to really find myself. Everything from internships within my major to legal and social work and outside, you name just, you know, I did just about any job there was to do on the campus and worked in all the buildings, I think, except two by the time I graduated. But it was an opportunity, like I said, to really mature and grow. And eventually I did gain mentors across the campus. And so But it was just a different type of experience and one that I cherished really very dearly and hold close to my heart because I lost my dad my first semester freshman year. And he was a bit of my muse for going to college.

John Ambrose [00:05:01]: So when he passed away, I really wasn't sure because I'd never done anything for myself. Uh, everything I did was to please him and to make him happy. And, you know, you, you wanted to get that stamp of approval from your dad or— and your mom. But my dad was larger than life in my eyes at that time. And also it was, it was a bit of learning, learning to want things for myself. So fast forward, I graduate, I work in the printing industry for a few years, actually more than a few, but I changed companies probably about 3 times and each one, uh, more progressively until the last one that was a bit more entrepreneurial. Found myself leaving there after the smaller mom-and-pop shop with the entrepreneurship piece and I started selling life insurance. And I got a call one day to find out if I was interested in joining Marygrove College.

John Ambrose [00:05:49]: And so the decision was, after they made me an offer, that I would go and earn my master's degree in education. And so when I got to the point of— I think it was, you got to do 6 months. So after my 6-month probation period in the, the start of the career, I started the program. And so I had my master's degree in education. And the Sister Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary there who ran Marygrove College— and I knew very little about the college when I, I started to work there. But that was the primary reason for going. So I got this wonderful lesson about the history of Detroit, but it was also my first foray into Catholic school education and kind of the mission of the Catholic Church as well as that particular sect for these— by the Sister Servants of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. And I mean, they were a gritty group of sisters and they did not take any, any stuff from any man or any woman for that matter.

John Ambrose [00:06:47]: And I mean, just the history of being the— in Detroit and how they became— went from being all-female to co-ed in the '60s. So it was quite the journey. And later to find out that my older sister had actually gotten her degree from there. And then, so there was a lot of connective tissue, but just things I had never really paid attention to. But it was a— and still is today— a beautiful campus. They just don't do college degrees anymore, undergraduate or master's. They are now a K-12 school, actually supported by the University of Michigan Ann Arbor and used— being used as a teaching lab for K-12 education and a part of the Detroit Public School System, community school district system. So they are continuing to educate and provide opportunities and access for Detroiters to education.

John Ambrose [00:07:35]: But that's kind of a, a short brief about how I got from my bachelor's degree to my master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:41]: So talk to me a little bit about going as a first-generation college student, as an undergraduate student. When you go to— when you go to graduate school, you're still a first-generation college student. It's a little bit different. There's different expectations, there's different thoughts and ways in which you have to, have to pivot to be successful in that journey itself, different than what it was in undergrad. And you had gone from undergrad to work and then now transitioning back into school. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. And as you transitioned into graduate school and through graduate school, you were successful, but what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

John Ambrose [00:08:27]: As I mentioned, I, I did 6.5, so part of the reason, or even the change in the major, had a lot to do with my GPA in undergrad. So I'd gotten myself into trouble, got myself out of trouble while I was there, but my GPA didn't rise to the level of being regularly admitted to graduate school. So when I got there and I ended up on probation my first year, but was quickly taken off of probation after my first semester. So I ended up graduating with a, I think a 3.98 or 5 or something like that with my graduate degree from Marygrove. The process was interesting, Chris, because I, I mean, let's just keeping it honest. I was making less working for Marygrove than I did when I left college. As a newly minted graduate, college graduate, I made more out of college than I was making when I went there, but they were paying for my degree. So it became one of those investment moments, and I was married, and now I have a mortgage, and I've got car notes, and I've got all these bills, and there's not enough money coming in the door for doing the work.

John Ambrose [00:09:41]: So it was a tough decision, but my wife said, "Hey, we'll make the sacrifice for 2 years for you to do this if this is what you want to do." So we had one of the two kids at that at that time, and then the second child came during the process of working on my master's degree. But a little bit like I hear some of my friends say about having grandchildren, they said, "If we knew grandchildren would be this much fun, I would have had them first and then done the kids second." And so I would tell you, for me, with a master's degree, if, if I had known that a master's degree was going to be that much fun, I would have done it first rather than doing the bachelor's degree. I'd never really taken discussion-based coursework, and so being in a setting where I allowed to converse and talk about my opinions and my thoughts about how I felt about certain educational aspects and thinking about the history of my K-12 or K-16 journey, it really opened my eyes to the ability and how learning could be different. And so I took my classes on the weekend. They weren't during the week, so they didn't interfere with my 9 to 5. I was given some time off to do my, my studies and homework during the work week. So I was given, I think, 5 hours a week so that I had opportunity to, to work on my studies. But I had as much on my plate during graduate school and maybe more in terms of the pressure.

John Ambrose [00:11:06]: But the ability to focus and have support was interesting from my— when I think about the juxtaposition between my undergraduate years and my graduate years of what was on my plate. I had a lot of part-time jobs in undergraduate, and my mom would often tell me my priorities were a little askew and it— It would just grab me by my nerves because I didn't fully understand or contemplate what she was really saying. So it wasn't until later when I was working on my master's that I began to understand what she was saying. It wasn't that I had too much on my plate. It was what I was prioritizing about what was on my plate that made all the difference in the world. And so going back to get my master's degree, I didn't have a goal for— at the time for what it was going to mean. What I had come to understand, and I had learned this in undergraduate, it really doesn't matter to the degree that you hold. What matters is that you find a place in working— in working America where people— where you fit, whatever the work is.

John Ambrose [00:12:10]: Um, but having a degree says a lot about who you are, and mostly that's why it exists as a caveat for, "This is the reason that we will hire you." Now, of course, there are disciplines, uh, being a doctor or, you know, a nurse or other things where you've got to have the background and understanding about those things, but there are a lot of things in in jobs and careers that exist, that it helps if you have a degree, but it doesn't matter that you have the very specific degree. And I think it's one of the myths that exists in a lot of people's mindsets about what education is and what it can do for you. But for me, it has opened a, a large variety of doors and opportunities. So when I got ready, I didn't know at the time when I took the job that I was going to— once I got my master's degree, that I was going to transition into higher ed. My intention was to go back to selling life insurance and move up in, in that particular industry. But I knew having an advanced degree of any type was going to be able to help me. And the reason I did the master's in ed with a focus on adult learning was I knew I wanted to manage adults. And so I've always felt that if you can teach, you can lead.

John Ambrose [00:13:22]: So understanding education and how it fit into the ethos of the work world. But that's the biggest thing, Ian, sis, no matter what your degree is in, can you articulate how those specific, uh, tenets actually connect to the career that you're focused on or the new thing that you want to do? Can you make the correlation so that when you're interviewing, you have the ability to help the search committee understand how you view that connection? And I've been very successful in being able to do that over the years of taking the full complement of all of the things that I've done and bring those to bear in the places that I've gone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: Now, as you said, you got a degree with the focus on adult learning, and you said you wanted to work with adults. And over the years, you stayed in higher education and working— you do work with adults, but you also work with many younger individuals as they were transitioning in and through their undergraduate experience. So as you look back and you think about the degree that you received and, and how that has helped you through your experience. If you think back now, would you change— would you choose the same program or path, and why or why not?

John Ambrose [00:14:36]: I think I choose the same path in the program. I see the young people as high school seniors or juniors as young adults, and I won't get into the debates about where they are and, and, you know, the development of their frontal cortex and all of that stuff, but their experience and exposure to more adult items has far surpassed the kinds of things that I was exposed to at their age. And so in a lot of ways socially, they're ready to have conversations that they're not really fully developed to have. And so they still struggle a bit, I think, in terms of understanding, but they appreciate being able to wrestle with it themselves if you give them the opportunity to do it. But I wouldn't change any of it. I, I love the path, uh, and how I found higher education. I think it gives me a unique story. And I find the— I mean, I knew I loved higher ed when I got to college, and there were plenty of days that I wanted to quit during my undergraduate, but there was far too much— many other positive things going on.

John Ambrose [00:15:39]: And once I got connected to the right mentors, they started to help me see life and navigate life differently. It wasn't that we were talking about my discipline or they were trying to help me understand my career. Options better, but they were helping me navigate life in a way that I, you know, had my father been around, I would've been looking for him, I think, to help me with the navigation for that. So I just came to experience and see higher ed very differently because of that. And it helped me to understand that we're not doing a great job of helping Americans understand what education really is. It's not a transactional effort that leads to these things. It is an opportunity for you to understand that there are greater layers and depths to us as individuals. When you think about— you get up every day in the morning and most of us have a mirror in the bathroom, but very few of us have a mirror that shows us the complete picture of who you are, 360 degrees.

John Ambrose [00:16:48]: So even if you have a dressing mirror, you know, maybe you're just checking to make sure if you're that meticulous about your outfit. But again, most people don't. So you kind of get dressed, you check the front, and you go about your merry way. Education gives you an opportunity to think about the full 360-degree and gives you the confidence that you don't have to check the back if the front looks good. But oftentimes we get so consumed in other parts of what we think it is. So we think by having all of those additional mirrors, it's— it's display of vanity or of pride. And not everybody needs to know what I look like from behind and all of those types of things. But it's not about that.

John Ambrose [00:17:30]: It really is about you and how you connect with other people and how you want to be seen by other people. And what do you really want to do? Most of us want to help other people, but we have no idea how to— especially once we become adults, we have no idea how to get out of our own way. And then we start thinking about, well, it's going to take me another 8 years. Well, if the good Lord lets you live another 8 years, what are you going to do with the 8 years? Are you going to continue to suffer through where you are, or are you going to decide and make a decision today? I'm going to invest this next 8 years or this next 3 years so that the last 5 years or the next 5 years beyond that can be more in line with what I really want to do, so that you don't have any regrets. But that's what it's about. So even when I talk with young people today about getting their undergraduate degree, it's not about what do you want to do for the rest of your life, it's what do you think you to do for the first 3 years after college, because they're going to change and they're going to have way more jobs than we ever did.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:30]: Now, I guess as you think about the experience that you went through as a graduate student, everybody learns something. You're— you've got your soft skill or your hard skills and your soft skills that you're learning as you go through that experience. What would you say are the specific skills that you felt that you developed most in graduate school?

John Ambrose [00:18:49]: Listening. Was probably the biggest one. I also developed my writing skills and became a better writer. But the listening was not just listening to others. It was listening to myself talk. And I talked about confidence a moment ago. I developed a new type of confidence, but I also developed a new ear. And I realized that I liked learning because sometimes you get to, to a certain point in your adult life and everything you've learned up to that point, you figure you've got it figured out.

John Ambrose [00:19:18]: And then you have all these little small moments where things get added to that learning. But you don't acknowledge those. And that's the listening part that helped me out along the way because, you know, I, I stubbed my toe, I'd done okay, I was still continuing to do okay. And I felt like this was really, you know, it, but, but I had not made the decision, as I said, consciously that I was going to stay in higher ed. And so as I began to listen to the things that were happening around me, I knew, but I knew that I was going to stay in higher ed. It before I actually started my graduate level courses. So I knew that having a master's degree was going to do more for me in higher education than it was going to do for me in corporate America. So it's not that it wasn't going to help me, but I knew having this Master of Education, having made the decision to stay in higher education before I started my coursework and being admitted, was going to matter.

John Ambrose [00:20:12]: So I learned those things about myself. I learned that I have more grit than I thought I did. I was prepared to make some sacrifices, but I had no idea the full level of sacrifices I was going to have to make as a dad, as a husband, as a, as an employee. I had to address a lot of things going through the process. I had to deal with the shame from my past, you know, not doing well academically in my undergraduate. I had to relive that, but I had to own it, and I had to— I wasn't prepared to own it. I, I mean, I did it in the, in the moment, and I knew what it was, but I just thought they were going to admit me or deny me. I didn't know probation was an option.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:49]: I really appreciate you sharing that, and I Jazz, going back to when you first started your graduate program, what's one thing that you wish that someone would have told you about graduate school before you had started?

John Ambrose [00:21:02]: I wish they would have talked to me more about the format of the classes and gotten me more excited about, like I said, discussion-based classes and the format. It might have helped me do a search or, or consider things differently. I think it would have also helped to even talk about, from an onboarding standpoint, It's great to give me all of the software applications that I'm going to need, and you're going to need a laptop, and you're going to need all these things, but it would have been helpful, I think, to really talk about the sacrifices that your family's going to have to make, that I'm going to have to make. Depending on the kind of reader you are— and when I say kind of reader, I mean at what speed do you read? You know, I didn't really learn to skim read until my senior year in college, but the kind of reader I needed to be for graduate-level work was completely different. So I think there are some nuance pieces there, especially for folks who are— who might have a degree, may have been out of undergraduate for quite a while, and are thinking now they want to get back into it. You know, what does it really take? It's not that you can't do it, but what are the adjustments that I need to make? What are some things that I can do to prepare, to get ready? So I, I think there's a different kind of preparation or preparatory stages that we can help adults prepare themselves to get mentally ready for what it looks like and to even talk about what is this going to mean for your family? What are the kind of things that you need to negotiate with them? Like, my wife telling me she was going to support me, man, that's wonderful, and it, it means a lot, but she didn't have any idea about the kinds of sacrifices she was gonna need to make. I'm pretty sure she thought, oh, you know, it was like— but every weekend for 2 years, I was absorbed either in work or in school, so there was no, hey, let's go to the movies, or can we take the baby to the zoo, or can we go to the park or do something like that. So I very, very, very few days off from being a student.

John Ambrose [00:22:59]: And that 5 hours a week, while it was great to get from the employer, it wasn't enough. You need a lot more than that. So on the weekends when I wasn't in class, I spent a lot of time working study groups. So working with my peers and being there. But when you finish— and it's 2 years, it's not forever— and that's the commitment. So that part I was clear about. All of the work in between, the mental adjustments, then the micro adjustments, So the macro, you can kind of figure out. It's the micro adjustments.

John Ambrose [00:23:30]: What, you know, what are the kind of skill sets and things again? What are the things I could work on to be a little better at? And what does it mean? Like, have you ever had discussion-based classes? Like, we only do that now, I think, for online classes. Like, hey, have you ever had an online class? And I did my first online classes in grad school, and I had, I think, one or two. And man, that was a huge change. You realize all your academic experiences have been in the classroom.— with other people and being able to adjust and get feedback and have those moments. But when you're doing coursework online for the first time, it can be very different. There are definitely some adjustments that need to be made.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:08]: You definitely do. Uh, as we finish up today, in thinking about success, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about students that are thinking about maybe going back, whether it be in education, business, medicine, whatever it may be, what are some tips that you might offer other considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

John Ambrose [00:24:29]: Don't look at the degree as an opportunity to increase your income. Look at it as an opportunity to develop yourself and to provide opportunities for you to become a different type of version of yourself. If you're just looking to add a degree 'cause it's gonna help improve your income, I suppose that's okay. But I don't think that that's going to be enough to satisfy you, especially when things may get harder. I've got a mentee who every time professionally he hits a ceiling, if you will, and he wants to break through the glass ceiling, he finds a way to go and get another degree. So he just got a law degree from Yale. But prior to that, he's got, I think, 3 other master's degrees prior to going to get his law degree from Yale. But he kept hitting a ceiling and was like, I need more education.

John Ambrose [00:25:22]: So he, he— go sacrifice, go find the right hammer to break through the ceiling, get through. Not— there are a lot of other ways to do that. I've got a different mentee and she negotiates. She didn't necessarily— she went and got her graduate degree after successfully negotiating career changes 3 or 4 times. And when I asked her, I was like, so why did you finally go get it now? She was like, I just really wanted to know more about this particular subject because she'd had enough opportunities where she was still able to navigate successfully without the information and do it, but she decided because she wanted it for herself. And that's the biggest thing I think when you think about graduate-level work is I would encourage you to want it for yourself more than, again, just looking to enhance your paychecks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:07]: Well, John, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. I really appreciate that, and I truly wish you all the best.

John Ambrose [00:26:16]: Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:17]: The University of Michigan-Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in —your education. Whether you're looking for in-person or online learning options, the University of Michigan-Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably heard this advice before:

"Make your application stand out."

And if you're like most applicants, your first thought might be:

Okay… but how?

Because when you look at what a graduate application requires—your personal statement, your resume, your recommendations, your writing sample, maybe even an interview—it can start to feel like a big pile of documents that don't automatically "connect."

You may even be thinking:

• "How do I pull all of this together?"
• "How do I make sure I'm not just listing accomplishments?"
• "How do I explain my journey without oversharing?"
• "What if my path hasn't been perfectly linear?"

Let me reassure you right from the start:

A clear narrative doesn't require a perfect background. It requires intentional storytelling.

And the best graduate applications don't just show that you can do graduate-level work… They show who you are, what shaped you, what matters to you, and what you want to build next.

Today, I'm going to walk you through exactly how to do that.

Why narrative matters in a graduate school application Admissions committees read a lot of applications.

And I mean a LOT.

Many applicants have:

• strong GPAs
• relevant work experience
• volunteer involvement
• leadership roles
• certifications
• awards

So what makes one applicant memorable over another?

Often, it's this:

Clarity. A strong applicant helps the committee quickly answer three questions:

1. Who is this person?
2. Why graduate school—and why now?
3. Where are they going, and how will this program help them get there?

If your application clearly answers those three questions, your narrative will shine—even if you don't have the "perfect" resume.

A key mindset shift: you're not just applying—you're introducing yourself Here's something I tell students all the time:

Your application is not a transaction. It's a story.

It's not:

"Here are my documents. Please accept me."

It's:

"Here's who I am. Here's what I care about. Here's how I've prepared. Here's where I want to go. And here's why your program is the bridge between my present and my future."

When you approach your graduate school application like a narrative, everything becomes easier to organize and write—especially your personal statement.

Step 1: Find your "through line" (the story that connects everything) The biggest reason applications feel scattered is because applicants try to include everything.

But you don't need to include everything. You need to include what supports your through line.

A through line is a simple idea that connects your experiences like a string connecting beads.

It might be:

• a passion (equity in education, mental health advocacy, community-based research)
• a professional goal (becoming a clinician, moving into leadership, transitioning careers)
• a lived experience that shaped your direction
• a problem you want to solve

Ask yourself: "What's the theme that runs through my experiences?"

And if you're thinking, I don't have a theme—I've done all kinds of things…

That's okay. Most people have.

Your through line doesn't have to be obvious at first. It often sounds like:

• "I've always been drawn to helping people make sense of complex systems."
• "I want to bridge the gap between access and opportunity."
• "I'm motivated by the belief that small interventions can create big outcomes."
• "I keep finding myself working at the intersection of people and problem-solving."

Your job is to identify what has consistently pulled you forward.

Step 2: Use the "Past → Present → Future" structure This is one of the simplest and strongest storytelling frameworks for graduate admissions.

It works in personal statements. It works in interviews. It works in letters of intent.

Here it is:

Past: What shaped you? What experiences, moments, or observations sparked your interest?

Present: What are you doing now? What have you learned, built, studied, or contributed that shows readiness?

Future: Where are you going? What goals do you have—and how does this program help you reach them?

If your application materials align with this structure, the admissions committee will feel confident recommending you.

Step 3: Turn your experiences into meaning—not just a list Here's a common mistake:

Applicants list experiences like they're writing a résumé in paragraph form.

Example:

"I completed a degree in psychology. I worked as a research assistant. I volunteered with a nonprofit. I also completed training in crisis intervention."

That's not bad—but it's incomplete.

What's missing?

Meaning. Instead, you want to show what your experiences taught you and how they shaped your goals.

Try this approach:

• What did I do?
• What did I learn?
• How did it shape what I want next?

Example upgrade:

"Through my work as a research assistant studying youth anxiety, I saw how often early intervention is limited by access and stigma. That experience pushed me toward crisis intervention training and strengthened my commitment to pursuing clinical practice focused on adolescents."

See the difference?

Graduate programs don't just want to know what you've done. They want to know what you've become because of it.

Step 4: Be specific about your goals (without boxing yourself in) Another common challenge: applicants worry they have to have everything figured out.

Let me say this clearly:

You do not need to have a 10-year plan mapped out.

But you do need to show that your goals are thoughtful, realistic, and connected to the program.

Weak goal: "I want to advance my career and make a difference."

Strong goal: "I want to develop the clinical assessment and intervention skills needed to support adolescents navigating anxiety and trauma, with the long-term goal of working in community mental health settings."

Strong goal (leadership): "I want to move into higher education leadership roles focused on student success initiatives, using data-informed advising strategies to close equity gaps in persistence and completion."

Specific doesn't mean rigid. Specific means you've done the work to understand your direction.

Step 5: Connect your goals directly to the program you're applying to This is where applications rise or fall.

Admissions committees can immediately tell the difference between:

• an application copied and pasted for multiple schools and
• an application written with intention for their program

The key is to connect your story to their resources.

Look at:

• curriculum
• concentrations
• internship/clinical placements
• research labs
• faculty expertise
• student organizations
• capstone projects
• community partnerships

Then, write sentences like:

• "The emphasis on ___ aligns with my interest in ___."
• "I'm particularly drawn to the course ___ because it supports my goal of ___."
• "I'm excited by the opportunity to work with faculty whose research includes ___."

This is not flattery. This is alignment.

Step 6: Make sure every part of your application supports the same narrative Here's the secret that many applicants don't realize:

Admissions committees aren't only reading your personal statement.

They're reading your whole application to see if it tells one cohesive story.

Your application should "agree" with itself: * Your resume should support what you claim in your personal statement * Your recommendations should reinforce your strengths and readiness * Your writing sample should match your academic potential * Your goals should match the program you selected

You don't want contradictions like:

• personal statement says you want research, but resume shows no research involvement
• goals say "clinical practice," but nothing shows people-facing experience
• statement says you're passionate about X but never explains where it came from

You want the committee to feel:

"Yes. This makes sense. This applicant is ready."

Step 7: Use a "signature sentence" to make your narrative memorable Want a simple way to stand out?

Create one sentence that captures your story.

Something like:

• "I'm pursuing graduate study to bridge mental health support and community access for youth."
• "My goal is to develop the leadership and data skills needed to build equitable student success systems."
• "I'm committed to using evidence-based practice to improve outcomes for underserved populations."

Then weave that idea throughout your application materials.

It becomes your anchor. Your north star.

And it makes your narrative easy to remember.

A quick checklist: Does your application tell a clear story? Before you submit, ask yourself:

• Can someone summarize my story in 2–3 sentences after reading my materials?
• Do my experiences clearly connect to my goals?
• Does my application explain why graduate school now?
• Did I clearly explain why this program is the right fit?
• Does my tone sound confident, grounded, and genuine?

If yes, you're in an excellent position.

One final encouragement If you're worried that your story isn't impressive enough, I want you to hear this:

Graduate admissions committees aren't looking for perfect people.

They're looking for:

• purpose
• readiness
• alignment
• growth
• potential

And the clearest narrative isn't built from having the most impressive resume.

It's built from knowing:

who you are, what matters to you, and what you're building toward.

And if you can communicate that clearly?

You will stand out.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week. And this week is another solo episode. I'm going to talk to you about another question that has been submitted. And this week we're going to be talking about how you can ensure that your graduate school application tells a clear story about you and your goals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:36]: If you're applying to graduate school, you've probably heard this advice before. Make your application stand out. And if you're like most applicants, your first thought might be okay. But how? Anyway? Because when you look at what a graduate application requires, your personal statement, your resume, your recommendations, your writing sample, maybe even an interview, it can start to feel like a big pile of documents that don't automatically connect. May even be thinking, how do I pull all of this together? How do I make sure I'm not just listening accomplishments? How do I explain my journey without oversharing? And what if my path hasn't been perfectly linear? Well, let me reassure you right from the start, a clear narrative doesn't require a perfect background. It requires intentional storytelling. And the best graduate applications don't just show that you can do graduate level work. They show who you are, what shaped you, what matters to you, and what you want to build next.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: Today I'm going to walk you through exactly how to do that. So why does narrative matter in a graduate school application? Well, admission committees read a lot of applications, especially at competitive institutions. And I mean a lot of applications. Many Applicants have strong GPAs, relevant work experience, volunteer involvement, leadership roles, certifications, awards. So what makes one one applicant memorable over another? Often it's this clarity. A strong applicant helps the committee quickly answer three questions. First, who is this person? Second, why graduate school and why now? And third, where are they going and how will this program help them get there? If your application clearly answers those three questions, your narrative will shine even if you don't have the perfect resume. Now, a key mindset shift that you're probably not just applying.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:36]: Here's a key mindset shift. You're not just applying. You're introducing yourself. Here's something I tell students all the time. Your application is not a transaction. It's a story. It's not, here are my documents. Please accept me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: It's here's who I am. Here's what I care about. Here's how I've prepared, here's where I want to go, and here's why. Your program is the bridge between my present and my future. When you approach your graduate school application like a narrative, everything becomes easier to organize and write, especially your personal statement. So step one with this is to find your through line. It's that story that connects everything you see. The biggest reason applications feel scattered is because applicants try to include everything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:25]: But you don't need to include everything. You need to include what supports your through line. A through line is a simple idea that connects your experiences, like a string connecting beads. It might be a passion, such as equity in education, mental health advocacy, community based research, or a professional goal. Becoming a clinician, moving into leadership, transitioning careers, or a lived experience that shaped your direction or a problem that you want to solve. So ask yourself, what's a theme that runs through my experiences? And if you're thinking, I don't have a theme, I've done all kinds of things. That's okay, most people have. Your through line doesn't have to be obvious at first.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:12]: It often sounds like I've always been drawn to helping people make sense of complex systems, or I want to bridge the gap across access and opportunity. Or I'm motivated by my belief that small interventions can create big outcomes. Or even I keep finding myself working at the intersection of people and problem solving. Your job is to identify what has consistently pulled you forward. The second part of this is to use the past, present, and future structure. This is one of the simplest and strongest storytelling frameworks in for graduate admissions. It works in personal statements. It works in interviews.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:55]: It works in letters of intent. And here it is. So, the past. What shaped you? What experiences, moments, or observations sparked your interest? The present. What are you doing now? What have you learned, built, studied, or contributed? That shows readiness and the future. Where are you going? What goals do you have, and how does this program help you reach them? If your application materials align with this structure, the admission committee will feel confident recommending you. Third step turn your experiences into meaning and not just a list. Here's a common mistake.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:33]: Applicants list experiences like they're writing a resume in paragraph form. For example, I completed a degree in psychology. I worked as a research assistant. I volunteered with a nonprofit. I also completed training in crisis intervention. It's not bad, but it's incomplete. Well, what's missing? The meaning. Instead, you want to show what your experience taught you and how that shaped your goals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:59]: So try this approach. What did I do? What did I learn and how did it shape what I want next? So using that past example that I just said to you instead, what if it reads through my work as a research assistant studying youth anxiety, I saw how early intervention is limited by access and stigma. That experience pushed me toward crisis intervention training and strengthened my commitment to pursuing clinical practice focused on adolescence. Do you see the difference? Graduate programs don't just want to know what you've done, they want to know what you've become because of it. The fourth step Be specific about your goals without boxing yourself in. Another common challenge Applicants worry. No, another common challenge that we tend to see is that applicants worry they have to have everything figured out. Let me say this clearly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: Let me say this clearly. You do not need to have a 10 year plan mapped out, but you do need to show that your goals are thoughtful, realistic and connected to the program. So here's an example of a weak goal. I want to advance my career and make a difference. Now, a strong goal would be I want to develop the clinical assessment and intervention skills needed to support adolescents navigating anxiety and trauma with the long term goal of working in community mental health settings. Another example, another strong example that would that might give you some sense might be for someone that wants to do something in higher education leadership. If that's the case, you could say I want to move into higher education leadership roles focused on student success initiatives using data informed formed advising strategies to close equity gaps in persistence and completion. Specific doesn't mean rigid.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:49]: Specific means you've done the work to understand your direction. Step 5 Connect your goals directly to the program you're applying to. This is where applications rise or fall. Admission committees can immediately tell the difference between an application copied and pasted for multiple schools and an application written with intention for their program. The key is to connect your story to their resources. So as you're doing that, you want to take some time to look at curriculum concentrations, internship and clinical placements, research labs, faculty expertise, student organizations, capstone projects, and community partnerships. And then write sentences like the emphasis on aligns with my interest in blank or I'm particularly drawn to the course and you add it in because it supports my goal of whatever that is. Or even I'm excited about the opportunity to work with faculty whose research includes and then you add that in as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:51]: This is not flattery, this is alignment. Step 6 Make sure every part of your application supports the same narrative. Here's the secret that many applicants don't realize. Admission committees aren't only reading your personal statement they're reading your whole application to see if it tells one cohesive story. Your application should agree with itself. Your resume should support what you claim in your personal statement, your recommendation should reinforce your strengths and readiness, your writing samples should match your academic potential, and your goals should match the program you selected. You don't want contradictions, such as a personal statement that says that you want research, but your resume shows no research involvement or goals that say you want to be involved in clinical practice, but nothing shows people facing experiences, or a statement that says that you're passionate about this, but you never explain where that came from. You want the committee to feel yes, this makes sense and this applicant is ready.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]: And the final step is to use a signature sentence to make your narrative memorable. If you want a simple way to stand out, create one sentence that captures your story. For example, I'm pursuing graduate study to bridge mental health support and and community access for youth. Or my goal is to develop the leadership and data skills needed to build equitable student success systems. Or even I'm committed to using evidence based practice to improve outcomes for underserved populations. Then you can weave that idea throughout your application materials. It becomes your anchor, your North Star, and it makes your narrative easy to remember. So as we finish up today, a couple of things to remember does your application tell a clear story? Before you submit your application, ask yourself these questions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:41]: Can someone summarize your story in two to three sentences after reading your materials? Does your experiences do your experiences clearly connect to your goals? Does your application explain why graduate school now? Did you clearly explain why this program is the right fit? And does your tone sound confident, grounded, and genuine? If yes, you're in an excellent position. So if you're worried that your story isn't impressive isn't impressive enough, I I want you to hear this. Graduate admission committees aren't looking for perfect people. They're looking for purpose, readiness, alignment, growth, and potential. And the clearest narrative isn't built from having the most impressive resume. It's built from knowing who you are, what matters to you, and what you're building toward. And if you can communicate that clearly, you will definitely stand out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:39]: If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

View Details

Are you considering graduate school but not quite sure if it's the right step? Or maybe you're simply curious how others have navigated the transition from undergraduate life or the workforce into advanced study. The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen for anyone embarking on or contemplating this journey.

Host Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint, sits down with Dr. Anne Jonas, assistant professor in human-centered design and human-computer interactions, to unravel the twists and turns of her academic journey. Their conversation is packed with practical wisdom, honest reflections, and encouragement for prospective and current grad students alike.

Key Takeaways from the Conversation

One of the key themes that emerges from this episode is the importance of intentionality. Dr. Anne Jonas didn't go straight from college to graduate school. Instead, she gained valuable experience in the nonprofit sector, which helped her identify why she wanted to return for further study and what she hoped to achieve. She encourages prospective students to "really know why you're going to graduate school"—not just to continue the routine of education, but because you have a true purpose and passion to pursue.

Another significant focus of the discussion is finding the right fit. Dr. Anne Jonas shares how she evaluated potential programs based on faculty interests, curriculum, and the kind of research being done. She emphasizes the value of looking for communities—both academic and personal—that will support you, reminding listeners that "no one person can provide all the support and mentorship" you'll need.

The episode also tackles the challenges of transitioning back into academia, particularly the self-management and independence required at the graduate level. Dr. Anne Jonas describes how she learned to balance work, study, and life, and the critical role her supportive community played in her success.

Why Listen?

Whether you're worried about finances, choosing between programs, or simply need reassurance that there's no single path to grad school success, this episode offers grounded, relatable advice. It's a reminder that with intentional choices, strong support networks, and flexibility, your grad school journey can be deeply rewarding.

Tune into this episode of "Victors in Grad School" for a conversation that just might help you find your own path forward.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week we are on a journey together. And I know I say that every week, but it really is true. The journey that you are on as a graduate student is truly that it is a journey. It is not always going to be a linear path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: There are going to be sometimes some circuitous routes to get you to where you want to be and to get you to being able to meet the goals that you have set for yourself. And this podcast is here to help you on that journey every week. I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can share their own experiences in going through graduate school to help you find success sooner. This week we've got another great guest. Dr. Ann Jonas is with us today, and Ann is a faculty member here at the University of Michigan, Flint. She's an assistant professor and working in human centered design and human computer interactions. And I'm really excited to be able to learn more about her as well as more about her own experience in going through graduate school and all of this that will help you in your own journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: Anne, thanks so much for joining us today.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:01:27]: Of course. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And I always start these opportunities really turning the clock back in time. And what I would love to do is I want to go back in time, back to your days at Brown University, or maybe a little bit after Brown University, because I know you did your undergraduate work at Brown University. And then at some point after going out working, doing research, you know, working at a number of different places, you made a choice, you made a decision, and there was a point in time where you said, said it's time and I'm ready to move to the next phase of my education. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that graduate school was the right time? What that graduate school was the. Was that it was the right time for you to go to graduate school. And that led you forward.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:02:16]: Sure. So I will say, when I was in college, I didn't really, even though I had many wonderful teachers who were graduate students, I didn't have a clear sense that graduate school was an option outside of kind of the professionalized paths of pre law, medical school, et cetera. And so I didn't really see that as something that I would do. And so I went out and worked in nonprofits for quite some time. And I think in that process I. I knew some people who went to graduate school and so I learned a little bit more about it, but I never really was ready to take that step. Early on, I think I was concerned about kind of job security and job availability and cost even. I had learned that many PhD programs and some master's programs provide funding.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:03:07]: I still wanted to make sure that it was something that was going to be financially viable choice for me. And so it was really important to me to kind of get some work experience under my belt before I went to graduate school and to really know like, why I was going to graduate school and not just kind of rely on that as like someone who'd always been at school and always done well at school. I wanted to kind of push myself to do something else and to only go to graduate school if it really, really made sense with kind of what I wanted for my future. So I was very happy in non profits for quite some time. And then I guess about four or five years after I graduated from college, I worked the Barnard center for Research on Women, Barnard College in New York. And being there, a big part of my job was bringing academics to speak at the college and organizing different events, as well as kind of facilitating communication and other kind of programming between scholars and practitioners, artists in all different sorts of fields. And so I was really at that time being exposed to all of these wonderful people doing all of these amazing things, many of whom had taken the graduate school path. And because I was working at a university, I was also lucky enough in combination with some of my prior experiences, to be able to take graduate classes at the Teachers College of New York at Columbia University, because Barnard and Teachers College and Columbia are all part of one university.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:04:37]: And so once I started doing that, then I really was like, okay, there's something really interesting to me here. I had always been interested in the Internet, particularly the social side of the Internet. I had done some classes in what we call modern culture and media when I was in college, but more from that kind of media studies humanities perspective. And take the classes at Teachers College really allowed me to get a little bit more of the social sciences perspective and really realize, okay, this is an area that I would be interested in doing research on. And that was the point where I was like, okay, I think I have a reason to go to graduate school. There's something that I would like to study. I have enough work experience that I feel comfortable that if I come out of graduate school and I'm not taking an academic path that I can continue the kind of work that I had been doing. And so that was when I kind of decided to set about looking into different programs and taking the leap of applying to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:33]: So let's continue unpacking that because you spent many years is on the east coast and I know where you ended up. You ended up out on the west coast at the University of California, Berkeley. But I guess talk to me about that. You said you started a process of trying to identify where you might want it to be and you ended up at the far other side of the country. So talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what ultimately led you to UC Berkeley. And what was it about that that really stood out and made you decide that that was the right fit for you?

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:06:06]: Yeah, I think my top priority in looking into graduate school programs were first the program, what am I going to be expected to do and is that going to align with kind of the goals that I have for what I want to research and kind of why I want to go to graduate school. And then there were some just like practical limitations. I'm very unfortunately monolingual. I don't speak another language. Many programs require that you have proficiency or fluency in another language. Similarly with like computer programming, I didn't have those skills. And so I was looking for programs that matched both the skills that I had and where I could do the kind of work that I wanted to do. And so that was important to me.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:06:46]: But I think the thing that was most important to me was looking into the faculty in different programs and saying, okay, who's doing the kind of research that I want to do in the areas that I want to do it and are they accepting new students? And then is the program in alignment? So those were kind of the big things for me is like the faculty and then the program structure. I looked all over the country and a little bit outside the country, you know, and just kind of did my research on the programs, on the people. I think I ended up applying to like eight PhD programs, something like that. I loved being in New York and love. But I didn't find a program in New York that felt like it was the right fit for me. So I didn't end up applying to any there that I can recall. So yeah, and with Berkeley in particular, I had a friend who was in that program. So I had been exposed to it and there was a scholar that I really admired, whose work I'd followed for, for a long time, who had graduated from that program.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:07:44]: And so that was familiar to me in those ways. Yeah. And I think that was kind of most of how I went about it more generally. And I was deciding between maybe we'll get to this. But for me, I applied to a mixture of programs in education departments, American Studies department, Anthropology department, and then Schools of Information, which is where I ended up, which is a more interdisciplinary program. But I was kind of looking, I knew I wanted to do some sort of more interdisciplinary research, but those were kind of the options that I was considering to take kind of a different angle on things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: Let's definitely talk about that. Because when you're looking at different programs, some people might automatically assume they're all going to be in the same type of college with the same type of requirements, with the same type of curriculum. And as you said, your specific discipline definitely is not. It can be found in different areas with different expectations. So talk to me about that and what you had to really look at to figure out for yourself what was going to be that best fit for you.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:08:46]: Yeah. So I think again, I would look at program structure, so I looked at what kind of courses are required, and then I would look at like, what kind of research are students and faculty putting out, what kind of venues are they publishing in, and again, what kind of skills are required either beforehand or once you're there. And I think that that curriculum piece was really important for me. I think like, interdisciplinarity is like very attractive to a lot of people because there's just so much out there. And it's really exciting to be able to pull from different areas. But I always say like, one of the, the trade offs that you have to consider is I think in a, a disciplinary program you really are given a foundation, you know, you're disciplined into a particular subset of knowledge and kind of given a very clear framework in which you're interacting and which you're contributing to. With interdisciplinary programs and research, you're much more going to be for putting that together and figuring out like, what kind of intervention are you making, who are you speaking to, what are you building on, and how are you going to hold yourself accountable to a different research community. So I think there's kind of a trade off of like depth and breadth there.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:10:01]: And then whichever I knew, whichever way I went, I was going to need to like supplement the other side. So if I went into a kind of more traditional disciplinary program like anthropology, then I knew I would have to make an effort to kind of bring in other fields and connect with work outside of that. And I knew if I went into a more interdisciplinary program, then I was going to have to be responsible for kind of finding out what kind of foundation I wanted to build upon for, for my research. So it was just kind of thinking about, about those trade offs. And I think ultimately I really decided that who I wanted to be in conversation with were people who were in kind of the tech world broadly. And that to me meant people coming at it from a technical perspective of computer science, as well as an arts and design perspective and a law and policy perspective. And then people like me who are more grounded in kind of social science research. But I wanted to be engaging with people from all of those different aspects.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:11:07]: And looking at some of the other programs, I think I was, you know, I thought they were really great, really exciting. But I realized I didn't want to spend two semesters learning about like the foundational literature of anthropology. I wanted instead to kind of focus, focus more on that cross disciplinary conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:24]: Now for every student there is a transition that they go through. When they go from being an undergraduate student, they transition potentially into the workforce like you did. They then going from the workforce back into school is another transition. But even going from undergraduate in the way that you're educated there to how you're educated in a PhD program is also a transition. So talk to me about that transition for you. And as you think back to your graduate school education, what did you have to do as you transitioned into program and what did you have to do throughout the program to be able to find success?

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:11:58]: I mean, I think one of the differences for me between to some extent at least between working outside of academia and then going back to school was I think I tried pretty hard when I was working outside of academia to kind of keep work at work. Like I kept very particular hours and unless there was a big project or something like that, at the end of the day I would go home and not really have to worry about work. I think with going back to school, being back in a PhD program, I had to adjust that somewhat. And everyone's different, like you said, with their schedules and their kind of routines and ways of doing things. But it's very much there will always be more work to be done. And so kind of figuring out how to prioritize that work and maybe be take advantage of the flexibility that I think a grad school schedule can offer in terms of meeting up with people, going to Events, but then also doing reading or writing into the night, things like that. I think I had to kind of of recalibrate myself for that, for that situation. I mean, I think that project management, I think especially again being in an interdisciplinary program really required a lot of self management in terms of figuring out prioritization and projects and kind of the other thing about particularly the kind of graduate school program that I went to is it's very independent.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:13:21]: So really setting my course, you know, with feedback from advisors and, and from peers. But setting a course and kind of stick sticking to it and finding the path required a lot of being proactive and figuring things out kind of on my own. And so I think that was really helpful for me throughout the process once I kind of got the hang of it, always still learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:42]: As you think back to your graduate education, what's something that you wish that someone would have told you before you had started that would have helped you along the way?

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:13:52]: I think that I got pretty good advice from people. So I think that, that things that I was told that I try to share with others is to like be very cognizant of like just logistically practically of the financial trade offs and decisions and what that's going to mean in your life and like for your family, your goals, your stability. I think having that match with faculty is really essential and really important in terms of like finding people that you align with, kind of in terms of what work you want to do, what style of work you want to do. And then I think the other thing that I really tell people that was communicated to me is that PhD programs in particular are really about research. And so unless that is like the primary thing that you want to do, then a PhD might not be the right answer. I think a lot, there are a lot of people out there who really enjoy learning and you know, so they think, oh well, maybe graduate school or a PhD in particular is the, the way to go. And I think there's so many different ways to kind of go about pursuing a love of learning. And one just needs to be aware that with a PhD in particular, there is really that research component that is at the forefront.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: Every graduate student has to find that balance for themselves, that balance of school, work, family, other commitments. And sometimes that can be difficult because you're trying to figure out that, that perfect spot for yourself, that sweet spot for yourself. So how did you find balance for yourself in looking at all of those different responsibilities? And what are some things either that you put in place or things that helped you to find success in balancing things while going through graduate school.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:15:43]: I think that it was always really important for me to have a support system and kind of a community both within and outside of graduate school. And I know people who really wanted to keep those worlds separate. And I think that's a totally valid approach. Your graduate school does not need to be your social community. For me, it often was. And for me that was really wonderful and supportive that I was able to have people who understood that wild kind of world of academia and were in a similar position. I was lucky in that there were only two other people in my cohort in my year in my graduate program. And we were all kind of doing pretty different things, but also had some overarching overlapping interests so that we were really able to like, understand and respect and connect on each other's work, but also that we were working on different enough things.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:16:39]: And I also think just our personalities, that it never felt like competitive because I think that can be something that's really hard for some people during the graduate school process. And so, yeah, for me, one of the best parts of graduate school was my peers. I was very close to the other students in my graduate program and in the master's program that was attached to the same department that I was in. And that was, I think, just a huge benefit to me in getting through graduate school both like socially and professionally. But again, I don't think it needs to be that way. I think it's different for everybody. It was also useful certainly to have people in my life who were outside of that world so that I wasn't only kind of tunnel vision on that one perspective. And I also, I had some friends who, you know, I started running, I would run with my friends.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:17:28]: That was, you know, a very important practice practice for me and kind of promoting like my overall wellness like while being in graduate school. I think it's nice, it's good to like have those other pieces in your life, whatever it is, for one, that helps have a more holistic experience because it certainly can feel all consuming if you let it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:48]: And talk to me about the research process for yourself because not everybody is going to do a research oriented degree, but a PhD definitely is. So talk to me about, about the research process yourself and how you sustained yourself through that process because especially in a PhD program, it can be a long haul and having to keep moving forward to meet those milestones. So talk to me about that and what you had to do to be able to set yourself up to being able to finish in the End it.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:18:17]: Is so different for everyone. You know, I mean, I think the, the research process, but for me, I was in a model that was again, much more independent. So I really had to figure out, like, is this project going to look like. And that changed very much just based on, honestly, like, logistics and practicality access, the sort of projects that I thought I was going to do early on in my PhD, I couldn't find a good place to do them. And so I had to pivot and kind of figure out other ways of going about it, which I think eventually was for the best, but, you know, required some flexibility and curiosity about, like, okay, how might I get at different parts of these research questions if what I expected is not available to me? I also was lucky to be able to participate in some other projects, research projects that were not. I knew from entering my PhD program what I wanted to focus on in my research, but I think it was really beneficial for me to be in on some other projects that were on separate topics, but with kind of connective tissue where I could explore different research techniques, collaborate with people and try different things out and kind of see what worked. So it will. It wasn't just my, my project.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:19:32]: And I think, like, throughout, from the beginning of graduate school through to now, the big thing with research is that just like, resiliency and like, recognizing that everybody hits extreme roadblocks. I'm sure many people do. The classic story of I had just scheduled an really amazing field work about my, I believe, my fourth year of my PhD. It was basically what I had wanted to do in many ways since the beginning. I was gonna travel to do ethnographic research in a particular community. I was very excited. I felt like, you know, I'd done research, but I was like, this is really gonna change my whole trajectory. And then that was in March of 2020, and, you know, the whole thing got shut down due to the COVID pandemic.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:20:14]: So I think it's just that ability to be flexible, be committed enough to a project that you're interested in seeing it through for a long time, and that it has, like, a few different pieces that you can really dig into, but also being flexible enough that you can kind of adjust based on real world conditions, your own interest, interest. Things change in the field, especially in something like technology, so quickly that I think combination of, like, commitment and flexibility is really essential.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:41]: And finally today, looking back at your own graduate school experience, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education, whether it be in computer science, business or whatever degree that would help them find success sooner.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:20:56]: I'm a big believer in community support. You know, I think that definitely it's really important to find, like I mentioned, faculty advisors who are a good fit. But I also think that no one person is going to be able to provide all of the support and mentorship you need in going through something like graduate school. And so I think it's really essential to build connections with a range of faculty and peers and kind of people in the community who you can kind of get different kinds of support and advice from. You know, like maybe you have the one friend who you see at conferences who is going to be someone who you can exchange paper drafts with, and maybe you have someone who is going to be really good at brainstorming and someone else who really knows a particular method. I think just having that kind of community is really valuable. And it doesn't have to be within your program. It can be.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:21:57]: It doesn't have to be within your field. It can be. But I think finding that arrangement of people who can offer you support and who you can offer support to, that is like, I think the biggest piece to me in terms of like finding success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: Well, Anne, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today, for sharing your own journey and for helping others to be able to think about graduate school in a little bit different way. And I wish you all the best, of course.

Dr. Anne Jonas [00:22:25]: Thanks so much. I really appreciate the invitation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:27]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:49]: Thanks again for spending time with me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:52]: As you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you a graduate student feeling the constant pressure to be flawless? Have you found yourself chasing impossible standards, believing that only perfect grades or perfect work will help you succeed? If this sounds familiar, you're not alone—and the new episode of "Victors in Grad School" is here to reassure and empower you.

In a powerful conversation between Dr. Juanita Tookes and Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Tookes shares a presentation about the Perfection Myth and dives deep into the experiences that graduate students face around perfectionism. The discussion is honest, validating, and filled with practical advice and heartfelt encouragement.

Dr. Juanita Tookes shares her personal experience as a "recovering perfectionist," normalizing the struggle and reminding listeners that striving for perfection is a common—but ultimately unrealistic—desire. She explains that perfection is a constantly shifting, subjective concept defined by societal standards, cultural expectations, and comparison (especially in the era of social media). The elusive chase for perfection can leave students feeling anxious, burnt out, and always "less than," which is neither healthy nor sustainable.

The podcast also digs into the impact of perfectionism on the brain, highlighting how a constant drive for flawlessness keeps students in a heightened state of fear and anxiety. This mindset, as Dr. Juanita Tookes explains, can deprive you of celebrating your achievements, push you toward burnout, and even negatively impact your mental and physical well-being.

Listeners will appreciate the practical discussion of perfectionist behaviors—like overworking, fearing mistakes, avoiding help, and linking self-worth to performance. Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dr. Juanita Tookes reinforce that these behaviors are understandable in high-pressure environments like graduate school, especially when finances and career prospects are at stake, but they urge listeners to challenge these patterns for their own health and happiness.

As the episode wraps up, you'll find wisdom in reframing mistakes as essential for growth, embracing imperfection as courageous, and celebrating persistence over unattainable perfection. There are even valuable resources recommended, including Brene Brown's "The Gifts of Imperfection."

If you want to feel seen, inspired, and equipped to tackle grad school without the chains of perfectionism, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in and start your journey toward a more balanced, fulfilling academic life!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: We have conversations with students, alumni, and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Hello, everyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:13]: Welcome. Really excited that you're here today, and I really appreciate you spending some time with us as we continue our student development series and partnership with our CAPS office on campus. And every term, I love being able to identify new topics that we can talk with you on to help you in the journey that you're on. And tonight I'm really excited because Dr. Juanita Tookes is back with us. And this topic, the topic that we're talking about tonight, is a really important one because a lot of times when I talk to graduate students, I hear many times that there are concerns and there's this feeling that you have to be perfect, that you have to get that a. That you always have to be at your best. And sometimes you can't always be at your best.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: Sometimes you have to be willing to be okay where you're at. And, you know, the myth of being able to be perfect all the time is definitely that it's just a Myth. So today, Dr. Tooks is going to talk about the perfection myth and how as graduate students, you can reframe and rethink about things in a little bit different way. And so I'm really excited to have her here and to have her talk with us tonight. To Tactor Tooks, I'll turn it over to you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:27]: Hello, everyone. I am so happy to be here again. As Dr. Lewis mentioned, this is a very valued partnership between the CAPS office and graduate studies. I love working with grad students, and a big part of my heart for grad students is because I remember being a grad student. I remember how hard it was. I am also recovering perfectionist. I don't know how many years in that I met that I'm at, but I will be the first to say that I suffer very badly with perfection.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:57]: And we're going to get into kind of what that looks like, how it can show up in your graduate student experience. But what I hope that you can get from this ultimately is feelings of validation. If you have gone through any of the things that we've talked about, I assure you you are not the only one. That's why I was the first to raise my hand. And I encourage you to engage in this conversation. I don't want to call it like a presentation, but feel free to use the zoom reactions. If there's anything that you relate to or anything that that really resonates with you, just use Some of the reactions, so that I know that, you know, what I'm saying is really kind of connect. You know, it's connecting with you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:40]: This is going to be an honest, transparent space. You know, it's seven o' clock in the evening, so we're kind of loosening up. You know what I mean? So this is going to be a pretty easygoing conversation. It's going to be informative, it's going to be validating, it's going to be supportive. And like I said, I hope you walk away feeling seen, but also feeling empowered. And I hope I can inspire you all to think a little bit differently about how you're navigating your graduate student experience so that you can also start improving the state of your mental health so that you can actually enjoy this journey. So let's get into the perfection myth. Okay, so the plan for the conversation today is to talk about perfection as a definition, to also talk about perfection as a concept.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:23]: We're also gonna talk about perfection as far as how does this look in your brain? So we're gonna talk a little bit about some brain stuff, and then we're also gonna talk about how does that follow up in behavior. And then we're gonna talk about what does it mean when we're talking about being perfect as a graduate student? What does that even mean? Then we're gonna go through some myths and facts, and then we're just gonna wrap up. And in that part, I'll just leave some final thoughts and hopefully have time, you know, just based off of the information that we're going to go over today. But it'll be more, you know, conversational. If there's anything that you would like to express or anything that you would like to ask, let's talk about it. I'm also going to provide you with some resources that I hope will help you if perfection is an obstacle for you. And then we'll conclude our talk for the day so that you can enjoy the rest of your night. So let's talk about perfect as a definition.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:17]: So it was really interesting just looking up the meanings of perfect. And it's not because I didn't know it offhand, but I really like looking at official definitions for words. So when I looked across several sources, the word perfect means flawless, satisfying all requirements, accurate, precise, or exact, free from faults, defects, or blemishes, being the best possible. So I just want that to sit and sink in just for a second. I want your eyes to read over these words. Flawless, satisfying all requirements, being the best Possible, free from faults, defects, blemishes. Another definition was also complete. So I want these words to just sit and sink in as we continue on throughout this conversation.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:18]: So now let's talk about the concept, the perfect as a concept. So perfect as a concept is an idealized standard. Okay, Idealized standard. It's also subjective, meaning that it can be interpreted in many different ways across many different contexts, depending on who you might be talking to. So. So depending on you might have somebody's opinion or maybe a cultural standard, an industry standard. Perfection does not have an objective type of perspective. It's more subjective based off of who you're talking to and what's going on.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:05]: It's highly influenced by society. That's why it is always changing. So let's. Let's take beauty standards, for example. What is considered beautiful now may not have been beautiful five or 10 or 20 years ago, right? So, for example, I know that, like tattoos on models, for example, in the fashion industry, I want to say maybe 10 years ago, that was no. That was a no. No. You don't show tattoos because tattoos were not considered beautiful, which is fashion models often covered them if they were walking one way or doing print work.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]: But now tattoos are in, like tattoos are in. So everyone now they can be visible now they're acceptable, seen as a beautiful extension and artistic expression of someone's personality. But in the next two to three, four, five years, it could be something completely different. So there is never a stopping point for how people view beauty and beauty standards. Perfection is the same way society determines what is perfect. What does perfect mean? Who is perfect. And it can be harmful. Perfection can be harmful.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:25]: I was reading across some sources, and the sources were saying that perfection can be helpful or it can be harmful. And when it said it could be helpful, it said it could be helpful if it was used as a guide. If you use it as a guide to help you as far as, like, inspiring you, like working to such a high standard that it's inspiring you to do your best at the highest level possible without getting too high. It was kind of. I get what they were trying to say. If you aim for perfection, then you're going to put forth your best effort as far as being inspired to do your best. My concern about that, though, is everyone doesn't know where to draw the line. You know, when do I know that my good is good enough without obsessing about everything being right, you know, or complete or perfect? And that's why I don't necessarily agree that perfection can be Helpful, because most folks do not know where to draw the line, and they end up actually crossing that line into things, into a way of thinking that is unhealthy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:42]: So I. My opinion goes with, it's harmful because it's often viewed as a requirement by most folks when we talk about what shapes perfection. And I'm going back to the point about it being influenced by society. It's also shaped by expectations. It's shaped by values. It can be shaped by routines. Culture comparison is a big thing that shapes perfection comparison. And that is a huge trap that everyone has fallen into, whether they've admitted it or not.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:17]: Especially in this age of social media where we. Whether we want to or not, we see how people are succeeding in life, whether it be their job or their grades or maybe the way that they're living their life. You know, they're going on vacations three times a year, and you're still trying to save up to get somewhere. You haven't been anywhere in like, maybe five years. I know in working with grad students in particular, I know students have told me sometimes that they are busting their brain trying to study for their exams and trying to catch up on readings and things like that. And they'll go on Instagram and see one of their peers who seems to be living the time of their life. They are outside taking trips, you know, enjoying social activities with friends and family. And then the other student is at home, like, how can I do that? Like, they just.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:08]: It's perfect for them. They get great grades. They are able to have a life. I'm over here hanging on by a thread. What am I not doing? I need to work harder because I need to have that kind of a life. So it's very easy to think that you. That people achieve this standard of perfection, and it makes other people feel very discouraged in themselves that they are not at that level, which makes them push themselves harder, to very harmful extents, to achieve something that is not achievable. And we're going to get to that when we talk about myths and facts.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:47]: But think about somebody pressing, pressing and pushing themselves to a limit that is not possible. And every day that they get up, they are pushing themselves to this unrealistic limit. Think about what that does with your mind. Think about what that does to your soul. Think about what that does to your physical body when you are pushing yourself to unrealistic limits every single day. So now let's talk a little bit about what goes on in the brain when you are a person who is endorsing perfection. And I also hope that with this conversation we can raise awareness about perfection. So maybe if you are someone who did not realize that your behaviors line up with being a perfectionist or acting in alignment with perfection, this can make you aware.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:41]: Not to make you ashamed, it's to make you aware so that you can modify your behavior to something that's more constructive and healthy. So perfectionism often keeps the brain in a heightened state of fear, which can result in anxiety and overthinking. This part of the brain that we're talking about is the amygdala. The amygdala is activated when you are in a constant state of fear. Because in this area of the brain, this is where you process emotions. A lot of emotional processing goes on in the amygdala, especially fear and anxiety. So this is where fight or flight is activated right there. You know, in the amygdala, rewards are for outcomes and not effort.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:27]: So this is the way cognitively that you are thinking about what you are doing, trying to reach a standard of perfection, right? So you are not going to reward yourself unless you get that perfect outcome, unless you get that 100%, unless you get that 4.0, unless you don't receive any negative feedback back for the whole semester. That is when you will reward yourself. But when you are holding yourself to that standard and you are depriving yourself of rewards because rewards are actually a very healthy thing to do, self rewarding is very, very healthy. Self rewarding and self celebrating. Because what it does is it acts as fuel for your motivation because you're pumping yourself up and cheering yourself on. When you do reward yourself for things that you do, things that you do achieve the wins that you do recognize with your pursuit as a grad student. But when you deprive yourself for when you deprive yourself of rewards, because remember, you are trying to achieve something that is not achievable. So what does that mean? If you are waiting for the outcome of perfection and perfection is not achievable, and you're depriving yourself of a reward until you reach this unachievable standard, guess what that means? That means that you're not going to get a reward, then you know that's what that means.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:50]: And so when you do not get a reward and you're trying to withhold this good thing from yourself, what ends up happening is you decrease dopamine. So now you know we're talking about hormones in the brain, right? So dopamine is like the. It's like the feel good hormone. It's called, like, the happy hormone. So when you reward yourself with something, you increase levels of dopamine in the brain. But when you deprive, deprive yourself of good things, that means you decrease the amount of dopamine that's being released in the brain. And I want to add, too, in this way of thinking, achievement, right, because you're. You're holding out rewards until you get the achievement or the outcome, the.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:33]: The perfect outcome that. That you want. When you do make an achievement with this line of thinking, it is often bringing you relief, not satisfaction. You're just relieved. Like, whoa, okay, you know, I got that 100% on that exam onto the next thing. It's not bringing you satisfaction. You're not thinking about how satisfied you are with how you studied and how hard you worked. It's just you worried yourself to the extent that you thought that you were going to fail, and you are like, whew, I did not fail.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:09]: All right? I'm relieved because I really thought I was going to get kicked out of this class and dismissed from the program, but I got 100%, and now it's on to the next thing. So you're not even stopping to celebrate the fact that you got 100%, and instead of being satisfied because of your diligent efforts, you are just. You're just plowing into the next thing. You're not even stopping to recharge. So I hope that you can see how unhealthy this is. Perfection. Perfection is like, I. I want you to think of like.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:39]: Like a horse driver. You know, I. I know we've all seen it where it's or not a horse driver. I'm sorry, it could be a horse driver, but almost like a. A husky team, right? Where it's like, go, go. You have the person on the little sled, and it's like, go. Mush. Mush.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:54]: That's kind of how perfection operates in your brain. Mush. Keep going. We don't have time to stop. We don't have time to reward. We don't have time to celebrate. We don't have time for this. You need to go into the next thing, and you better achie like you did the last time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:09]: Think about how harsh that sounds, because that's a part of perfectionism, too. Very, very harsh treatment of yourself. Very, very harsh talk of yourself. There's no encouraging. There's no cheering. There's no embracing. It's just mush. Continue.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:27]: Go. We can't stop right now. Stopping is for the week. I really want you to hear how hard it is to operate under those types of mental conditions. And this is all going on in the brain. Perfectionism causes stress. It causes stress and burnout because stress leads to burnout. It's a part of the burnout experience when we're thinking about this.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:56]: When you think about stress, when somebody is stressed, that means that their brain and their body are not safe to rest. It's not safe. I got to be on edge. I got to be ready. I have to be on defense like I have to, you know, I'm on edge because I have to. Your body is in a state, your body and mind are in a state of alert. So it's right in connection with that fight or flight with that part that's going on in the amygdala, that part of the brain. So you're not able to ease up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:24]: You're very tense, you're very worried, you're very alert, you're on edge and your body and your brain has to rest. Grad studies are very, It's a very intense level of education if you do not balance intense focus and concentration. You're looking at computer screens all day. You're reading text with extra small font, journal articles and books and chapters and like, things like that. If you do not give your, your brain and your body a chance to rest, you're going to burn them both. You're going to burn them out. You're going to burn them out. So I really want you to think about how stressful it is when you are putting your brain and your body under such hard conditions of working.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:09]: And when we talk about stress, we're talking about cortisol, increased levels of cortisol and adrenaline, because those are stress hormones. So again, we're still talking about brain functioning here. And the reason why I wanted to make sure that I talked about the brain because I think it's very, very important to have a physiological perspective of how these constructs as perfection really does have an impact not only on the psychological, but the physiological. It's all in alignment. How you think and how your brain conceptualizes it could really cause an imbalance in chemical hormones in the brain which affect your mood, which affect your mental health. It can affect your, your physical health. So it's really important to understand what, what perfection looks like on the inside of our brains. Also, perfection reduces cognitive flexibility, right? It's not flexible.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]: That's why you don't, that's why you feel like you can't make any Mistakes. Everything has to be perfect. You can't get any questions wrong on the exam. It doesn't matter that you got a 99%. You missed that one question. And now the test was 75 questions multiple choice. You missed one question. You still got an A.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:31]: But instead of celebrating yourself and appreciating all of the hard work that you put in, you are focused on that one question you missed. And I have heard students say to themselves, well, that was stupid. I was so stupid for that. Like, I should have known. Like, that question was so easy and I got it wrong. Not thinking that you got 74 other questions correct and you still passed, like, with an A. But when you have cognitive, when you don't have cognitive flexibility, it means that you have a rigid way of thinking. So you have A.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:02]: And this aligns with a fixed mindset. You cannot make a mistake. A mistake is weakness. You might as well just start all the way over. It doesn't matter that you got 74 of the questions correct. You need to study triple time on the final so that you can get 100%. So now let's talk about behavior. Right.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:24]: So we talked about cognitively, when you're thinking about perfection and this way of thinking, how is it impacting the hormones in your brain? Right. One thing about behavior is behavior follows thoughts. So whatever you're thinking, that is going to show up in how you act. Right? And I had to decrease the size of the font on this slide because the list is ongoing as far as behaviors that align with perfection. So perfection doesn't just show up as a mindset as we talked about on the previous slide, but it shows up as patterns of behavior as well. And one thing that I think is really important is these behavior behaviors are often subtle and they are socially rewarded. So let's just stop and park right there just for a second. Some behaviors of perfection are often rewarded, so that's why they are very hard to recognize.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:19]: So let's just take a workaholic, for example. I am also a recovering workaholic along with being a recovering perfectionist. And I think I would, you know, I had some flare ups because as a workaholic, the reason why I was a workaholic is because nothing was good enough. And I had to make sure that everything was perfect because nobody could know that I'm making mistakes. And I had to check this email 15 times because, you know, please don't find a typo. Like, do not find a typo. You know, that's just going to disregard all of my Intelligence. If there's one typo in this email.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:56]: So this is of course not the whole entire list. This list can go on for 10 more slides, but I just wanted to list some examples here. So spending excessive time on tasks to make them just right, difficulty stopping or submitting work. And I really, as I'm going through these examples and as you are reading them for yourselves on this screen, please take a minute to reflect on your own behavior. If you are doing these things again, it's to make you aware, not ashamed. Because the more aware you are, that puts you in a really good position to make modifications to your behavior in ways that help you experience your life in better quality ways. So avoiding new or unfamiliar opportunities. Harsh self criticism.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:47]: Harsh self criticism. After minor mistakes, like I just said with my example of the exam, sensitivity to feedback or criticism. I think this is a very important one because remember when I said earlier in the conversation about I am, you know, striving towards the goal of not receiving any kind of critique all semester? Well, you're going to get critiqued. Like critique is inevitable, you know, and critique is not a negative thing. But a lot of times, especially those who are perfectionists and who operate in perfection, critique is a bad word. It is not a bad word. You can receive positive critique, you can receive critique about growth, but it's all in how you perceive critique. If you think it's bad, then you are going to approach it in fear.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:41]: Remember that fight or flight. You feel threatened when you hear that the professor wants to talk to you after class. Or maybe there is a note that your instructor wrote on one of your assignments. You don't even want to read it because it's kind of like, why are you saying anything to me about this perfect product that I just gave you? If you want to meet with me, that means that I did something wrong and now I'm afraid. And what I might try to do is avoid reading the critique, avoid meeting with the professor. I might make some excuses as to why I don't return the email because I am afraid that you are going to tell me that all of my hard work is garbage and I wouldn't be able to handle that. So I'm just. I'm not going to listen to any critique at all.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:29]: Again, these are not helpful ways of thinking because critique, if you allow it to, it will help you to grow. If you realize that it does not define who you are as a person and it's meant to mold and shape and make you better, then you can approach receiving feedback differently. All or nothing thinking. Either it's perfect or it's trash. There is no in between. There is no in between at all. If it is not 100% on this test, I'm a failure. I'm stupid.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:03]: Doesn't matter that I got an 85. Doesn't matter if I didn't get the 100, I might as well have just gotten a 0. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. So being very worried about how you are perceived by others if they know that you're struggling. You know, I know a lot of students are worried about what their professors and what their instructors think about them. I had a student who had to repeat a class, and the reason why the student was struggling the second time around is because the student was very afraid that the instructor perceived them as incompetent because they had to take the class again instead of working with the professor to make sure that they had the skills and they had the extra help that they needed to pass the class the second time around, they avoided the instructor because they really thought the instructor just had a negative perception of that. That was really sad to hear. I'm really happy that I was able to work with that student to help them understand the benefits of being transparent with instructors so that can, you know, just demolish those distortions in your head that are telling you something that is completely not true.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:24]: Not asking for help. And a lot of times shame is associated with this, and it goes right to the point before it. Hiding struggles to maintain a competent image. I don't want to ask for help. If I ask for. Let's just, for example, I can't ask for help as an assistant director. I'm the assistant director. I'm the ad.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:43]: I can't ask for any help. What is my supervisor going to think if I ask her? If I ask her for help on this project, I'm supposed to know everything. I shouldn't have a question for her. If I have a question for her, she's going to think that I can't do this job. So I'm going to continue to struggle with something that I don't understand versus asking a question from somebody who knows and can give me understanding because I am too afraid that they're going to think that I am not going to be able to perform well. So all of the falsified things that we tell ourselves because we are afraid. We're afraid about what other people will think. We're afraid about what's going to happen if we go out and do something new or different.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:26]: We're afraid about falling short. We're afraid. Fear is a very, very intense and paralyzing emotion. And that's why it's so important to have conversations like this, so that you don't feel as afraid as afraid. And knowing that there's help out there for you if you are dealing with a 10 sphere like this, struggling to delegate and share tasks, because a lot of times we're afraid to let others know that we might need some help. But with perfection, it's also about control. Nobody can do it like me, so I'm gonna just do it myself. I remember working with someone who was working on a huge project, and they needed help with the project, but instead of asking for help, they worked over about four hours to complete it, when they could have completed it in about maybe an hour, maybe 90 minutes at the most, if they would have asked for help from their team.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:25]: And so we had to kind of explore that together about why didn't you ask your team for help if they were all present and they said that they would help you? And the response was, well, I have a particular way that I like to do things, and so I know how I like it. So I just decided to do it myself. But this was at the cost of the person working over four hours, not getting paid overtime, working through their break period. And this is not physically or psychologically healthy. Right? Difficulty accepting praise or success, and then comparison. So if we think about the themes with these examples, we see overworking, we see control, we see rigidity, and we see emotional suppression. All of this is part of the experience and the endorsing operating under perfection. So let's talk about the perfect student when it comes to the grad student experience.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:32]: One thing that I would like to ask, and if you feel free to put it in the chat as we go through this particular slide, but why do you think grad students in particular feel the need to be perfect? Just type it in the chat. There's no wrong answers for this, but I would really like to know what you think as to why grad students would feel like they need to achieve a standard of perfection. I know that, and I explain to students this all the time. Graduates school is a different level of education. The ante is definitely upped when it comes to grad school and the expectations and the evaluations, they're different, you know, than undergrad. And so it can add some pressure to what students, you know, think about themselves coming into a grad program. We have some answers, some things in the chat. So let's take a pause for the cause and see what you all have to say.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:36]: So, Michelle, you said money spent for the program and loans because it is a higher level of education. So we feel as if we need to show we are highly competent, Very, very insightful. And I appreciate those responses. Michelle, I want to touch on what you said. Money spent for the program and loans. I have worked with grad students who have been dismissed from their program because they may have failed a course or weren't doing academically well. And one of the this experience is heartbreaking for staff and faculty because that's not what we want for any student. But it happens.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:24]: But students are really afraid in situations like this because they fear like, I went through all of this. I still owe money on these loans and I don't even have a degree to show for it because I got dismissed from the program. I'm a failure. I have all of this money and I have nothing to show for it. So I'm glad that you touched on that, Michelle, because sometimes the money is very pressuring. Spending all this money going to college, going to law school, going to medical school, spending all of this money trying to get this education. And what if I don't do well? Like in this case, I was talking about students who actually were dismissed from programs. But what about students who are doing okay, you know, they're actually doing good? Sometimes that loan, that financial pressure, Right.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:12]: And just knowing that you have all of this debt, it could make you feel like. Or all of this money that you're either investing or in money that you have to pay back, it can make you feel pressure about, well, what if I don't make it? What if I don't succeed and then I don't get a job and then I'm stuck with all of this debt? What am I going to do? So now anxiety is already making you think that you've been dismissed from a program when you're actually doing quite well. So I'm glad you touched on that. Let's read a little bit more. So, Dr. Lewis, thank you for contributing criticism of your work. Doesn't feel like this draft needs revision. It feels like maybe I don't belong here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:50]: And this breeds perfectionism. Yep. Grad programs select people who are already top of their class, highly motivated, used to being the smart one. So suddenly everyone is talented and the old identity, old identity advantage disappears when your peer group shifts. You can start thinking everyone else is doing better than me. I have to prove I deserve to be here. That pressure can morph into perfectionism. I agree 100%.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:33:18]: When I used to work with medical students, in particular, I used to work for Michigan State's University's College of Osteopathic Medicine. So I had students who were coming from undergrad going into doctoral programs, and in undergrad, they were at the top of their class, right? They were at the top of their class, but then they took that first anatomy class in their first semester of med school. They may have been at the top of their anatomy and physiology. I forgot the coursework. It's been so long. I used to know this like the back of my head, but it's like, you took anatomy courses in undergrad and you were at the top, but then you take your first anatomy class at the doctoral level in med school, and you're not doing so hot. You're used to being the smart one, the one that's at the top of their class, and now you're like, what the heck happened? Like, what happened? I just graduated a few months ago. What happened to my brain just over the last few months? And what I had to tell students a lot of the time is, this is medical school.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:21]: This is not undergrad. We are not in Kansas anymore, okay? This is a whole new level of learning and education. You got a lot of stuff coming at you. The teaching structure is different, the content is different. So you can't use the same strategies of study that you may have used in undergraduate, because you're going to have to develop a whole new infrastructure of studying and working as a. As a. As a doctoral student, as a med student. So I try to very much encourage students to think it's not you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:55]: It's not anything that changed with your brain. It's the fact that your level of education and the domain of learning that you're in has changed. And like Dr. Lewis pointed out, everybody was at the. Everybody's at the top of their class. This is med school, so they're taking the top of the top. That's why everyone doesn't get in. It's very competitive, and we're going to.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:13]: Oh, and which goes into my next. Goes into my next point. Right? Competitiveness. Grad programs are more competitive than undergrad education because they only have so many slots to fill with students. So the competitiveness can also make students feel like they have to be perfect. Imposter syndrome is interwoven all up and through this presentation. Dr. Lewis and I, we done a lot of presentations on imposter syndrome, so that is also mixed in here and also failure conversations it's taboo.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:48]: We don't talk about failure in college. One of the things that I really loved doing when I was working with medical students was talking to faculty who were willing to be transparent about their failures as medical students in their education, in residency, when it was time to take their board exams. And surprise, surprise, a lot of faculty were not willing, they did not want to be transparent about those struggles with students because they felt like students perceived me as the one who was supposed to know everything. If I let them know that I failed my license exam, I am not going to be a credible resource. They're not going to look at me as credible. But I'm like, no, actually it probably would help you connect a lot of bit more with students if they know that you did experience a failure. And look at you now, you still became a doctor, you're still very successful, you still know a boatload of stuff that they don't know. But it was the faculty's perception of themselves that still made them feel, which at least that's what I picked up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:51]: There were still elements of shame about those past failures, which is why they were not willing to be transparent. And if I add, it doesn't mean that you have to share all your business about every failure that you ever done. Transparency is not a man mandatory thing that you have to do, but it's one of those things. Whereas if you use it in the right way, it could be a powerful change agent as far as how students think of themselves and how they look at authority figures. Because a lot of times they might look at an authority figure like I wish I could be like Dr. So and so or Mr. And Ms. So and so.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:37:24]: They're so smart. I know, like they just whiz through school and I'm up here struggling to know that your professor also had shortcomings. If kind of changes the perspective of they can do no wrong. Like putting them up on these high pedestals. It brings them down to a human level where it's like, well, if they can experience a failure and they can still make it, I can make it too. So it's more so inspirational. It's definitely not something that could put someone in a negative light if you perceive it that way. Sometimes a dangerous truth.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:00]: In many programs, the most praised students are the ones who work constantly. Say yes to everything, never set boundaries, appear always capable. If the culture implicitly rewards intensity, students learn, my worth equals my output. Perfectionism becomes a survival strategy to stay respected. Agree 100% Dr. Lewis. I remember as a grad student in my PhD program, I would always tell my professors, like, every time I would see them, if you need anything, just let me know. If you need anything, just let me know.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:33]: One of my professors stopped me and said, juanita, I know what you're doing. I know all that you're doing. There's nothing that you would be able to do for me. Not because you're not capable, but you don't have the time. You don't have the bandwidth. You're teaching classes this semester. You're in internship. You're still taking courses at night, working in the counseling center part time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:57]: During the day, you're doing clinical supervision, like working on some research. You don't have it to do anything for me. And it really made me look at myself. Like, why am I telling people that I am still available to do something if I'm not available? But I thought that if faculty knew that I was always available, it would make me look better as a student that they know that I'm doing a thousand things, and I can still do a thousand more things. So I was so appreciative of that professor who said, juanita, you can't. And that is okay. You know? And when you think about what grad students think about, they think about, like, letters of recommendation, if they're going to go on with their education. They think about maybe possibly being on somebody's research team.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:44]: It's kind of like if I keep making myself available, then they'll remember that. And then when it's time, you know, to get on their research team or maybe, you know, if I ask them for a letter of recommendation, they'll write it. Not even thinking about the fact that maybe they would just do it anyway simply because you just asked, not because you overworked yourself. Very good conversation in the chat. Thank you so much for everyone contributing. All right, we're almost done. Let's get into some myths now. So you're not the only one who's thought this.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:11]: Okay. I think I've thought everything on this list. So perfection is achievable. Some of these we've already answered, right? We already said that perfection is not achievable because it's constantly changing. So there's. There's not a final endpoint, a destination, a particular bar where it's like, that's the end. Because it's constantly changing due to various things in the world. Being perfect is the key to high achievement.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:39]: Mistakes are signs of incompetence. That's why you should never make one as a Grad student, you should never make one. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. What's to criticize? It's all done perfectly. There's no error, there's no mistake. So there's nothing to say, right? Perfection improves confidence. Let's take some time. Let's let it sit, let's let it sink.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:07]: Let's think before we go to these facts. Especially that, those last two. If everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. And perfection improves confidence. Okay, now let's talk about some facts. Because the way that you fight fear. Right, Because I want you to think about perfectionism. Perfectionism is connected to anxiety and anxiety is based in fear.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:33]: So what is driving perfection? Fear. That's what I want you to realize. It's not because you want to do so well. No. You're afraid of something. That's why you don't want to make a mistake. That's why you don't want to let others help you. That's why you cannot submit this draft right now.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:50]: Even though you've read it a hundred times. You are afraid of something. And the way that you fight fear is with facts. Because anxiety will always try to scare you with something that hasn't even happened yet. Something that is so out of this world, but it seems very real. Because it's a threat. And threats make us afraid. That's why in the part of the brain that processes emotions.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:13]: Put it in the chat. If you remember the part of the brain that I mentioned that processes emotions, especially anxiety and fear, that fight or flight. What part of the brain is that Starts with an A. Put it in the chat if you remember. This is not a pop quiz, I promise you. Let's fight this fear with some facts. Yes, Michelle. The amygdala.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:35]: Woo hoo. I wish I had some prizes to give out, but I don't. I just have little zoom, little zoom responses. So let me find a nice little zoom response. Woohoo. Thanks, Michelle. Okay, so like I said, perfection is always changing. So that's that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:52]: Success usually comes from persistence, not perfection. So remember what we said on the last slide. Being perfect is the key to high achievement. Now, high achievement usually comes from persistence. You're learning from mistakes and you're adaptable. So once you've made mistakes and kind of learned what to do better, then you change, you modify, you try again. That's where success comes from. Mistakes are essential for learning and growth.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:20]: Because remember what the myth was, Mistakes are a sign of incompetence. No, mistakes are actually essential. They are a part of your success process. You will not be able to succeed without making a mistake and without failing at something. Okay? Criticism is inevitable because remember the myth was if everything is perfect, no one can criticize you. Well, you're going to receive critique no matter what. So you're going to be constantly evaluated and critiqued. You're not going to be able to avoid it.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:43:52]: So that's why it's very important to know. How do you conceptualize critique? Is it because everything I'm doing is garbage and I must have done something wrong? No, it actually could be because you're doing something right and doing something well. Or this could be information to help me become better. Right. Versus internalizing it and taking it personal. Perfectionism often undermines confidence by tying self worth to performance. Because remember that last myth was perfectionism improves confidence. Actually, it undermines confidence because it is tied to your self worth based off of how you perform.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:28]: So if you do not perform well, that means that you are not looking at yourself well, you're looking at yourself as incompetent or stupid or I don't deserve to be in this program and I should have known way better than that. I'm going to have to study a lot harder. Your self worth is low because you perceive your performance as low. So you actually are not confident. Right. So I wanted to insert this research in here because I was really, really just intrigued about everything that I was learning. And so I just wanted to see kind of what research had to say about perfectionism. And so I was looking at this study about academic perfectionism, psychological well being, and suicidal ideation in college students.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:45:12]: And so Fernandez, Garcia and colleagues looked at a group of over 1200 Bachelor's, Master's and doctoral university students. And these students all completed a questionnaire that measured different things. And the study aimed to analyze the extent to which high levels of perfectionism could compromise psychological well being. And so what the results showed was that there was a direct and significant relationship between perfectionism and academic performance. So when you have a direct significant relationship or positive relationship, that means as variable A goes up, variable B goes up. So variable A, you know, is perfectionism, variable B is academic performance. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels also had higher academic performance than those who did not report that they were operating under perfectionism. But for some students, there was a significant but inverse relationship found between perfectionism and psychological well being.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:46:22]: So we're not talking about academic performance anymore. Now the variable C is well being. So when we have a significant an inverse relationship. That means as variable A goes up, variable C goes down. Right. So students who reported endorsing perfectionism at higher levels, their well being was at a lower level. Right. And so this was indicative of higher, higher numbers of students reporting that they were experiencing suicidal thoughts.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:01]: Right. So when we see students reporting a higher level of suicidal ideation or thoughts, that means your mental health is low, if that is high. Right. So when we talk about an inverse relationship, that means one goes up, one goes down. The more perfectionism you endorse, the lower your psychological well being is, which opens up to the door to poor mental health symptoms like suicidal thoughts. So I just thought that that was really interesting and I wanted to share that information with you all. Okay, so now we're at the conclusion. So now we're going to wrap up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:47:39]: And I love quotes. I'm a quote person, I love quotes. So I just wanted to leave you all with some quotes that I found in regards to perfectionism. Done is better than perfect. Now, the quote that I found was from Sheryl Sandberg, but I actually have heard this same statement many times throughout my grad school experience, especially when I was working on my dissertation. And I mentioned that because a lot of doctoral students who are working on dissertations want a perfect dissertation. It has to be perfect. Because this is high stakes.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:48:15]: If I don't pass this, I don't get my doctorate. And if I don't get my doctorate, what does this whole experience mean? Going back to what you said, Michelle, all the money that I invested and all the time that I spent and all the courses that I took and the grades that I if I do not pass the dissertation, I don't get my doctorate. So it's a very pressuring environment. There's a lot on the line here. But I remember a dissertation coach, Dr. Ramon Goins, I remember him saying, you know, a done dissertation is better than a perfect one. And I've also been told too, which was comforting in a way, your dissertation may not be your best piece of work. More than likely it's probably not going to be because it's the first big project that you've ever done as a brand new doctor.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:05]: So it's probably not going to be your best work. Your best work is going to come after that when you have more time and more experiences and more exposure to doing research and writing and all of these other things. So I want you to take this with you. Done is better than perfect. Get it done. Just get it done. You know, finish the Chapter, finish the test. Like, don't overanalyze what you've done.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:29]: Send the email. Like, get it done. Because if you're wasting time over analyzing to make sure that it's perfect, then that means that something is left unfinished and unsubmitted and you're not achieving the goal, which is to complete what you start. Have the courage to be imperfect. I really love this because it is an act of courage to embrace your imperfections. It is. It really, really is. I want you all to think of yourself as courageous.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:49:59]: It is courageous to know that, hey, I have some shortcomings. Hey, you know, I don't always get it right all the time. I don't really know this area very well. You know, it takes courage to stand up to perfection. It takes courage. It takes bravery to stand up and look perfection in the eye and say, I'm okay with not knowing how to do this. I'm okay with asking for help. It's okay, it's okay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:25]: I gotta see. It's okay. I'm gonna do better next time. The most valuable thing you can make is a mistake because you can't learn anything from being perfect. And remember what I said mistakes are. I know you're going to have. I know you got some amazing professors, some amazing instructors, some amazing mentors, right? But the best teacher that you're going to have, not just in grad school but in life, are mistakes. You are going to learn a lot from them.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:50:54]: I don't want you to just think about academic mistakes. I want you to think about life mistakes that you've made. Okay? Think about the value of the lesson and the mistakes. If you are so busy internalizing and questioning why you made the mistake in the first place, guess what's going to happen? You're going to miss the lesson. And when you miss the lesson, that means you got to repeat the course. I'm not just talking about in grad, in the grad program. I'm talking about in life. When you miss the lesson, you have to retake the course.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:51:23]: Trust me, I've been a summer, a summer school student in life many times before. Okay, you want to make sure that. And I know sometimes we can get bummed out when we know that, that we've made a mistake. And, you know, give yourself that permission, right? But draw the line and say, okay, what am I supposed to look for here? What am I looking at here? Okay, so if you are experiencing anxiety or fear or if you know your perfection, your perfectionistic behavior is running your life. And you need help. If you need help developing new ways of doing things. If you need skills, if you need tools, come caps. Come to caps.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:07]: We're located on the second floor of the University Center. I know that we have grad students who are online programs. Maybe they are not on campus. We can talk to you virtually via Zoom. If you want to inquire about setting up some counseling sessions so that you can have professional help standing up to perfection, building up that confidence in healthy and constructive ways, just go to umfl.edu caps. All of the information that you need to know will be found there as far as how to inquire about a consultation with us to potentially start services. And I also have my email address right there. So if you want to email me, please do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:52:50]: I will answer any questions that you have about mental health resources, perfectionism, like anything that we've talked about. And I am actually going to put a resource in the chat here, which is a book by Brene Brown. I've actually read this book and I'm. I hope I can find it. I've read this book. I'm actually reading it for the third time, but I'm gonna put it here in the chat. The book is called the Gifts of Imperfection. It's a really good read.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:53:30]: So I'm going to copy it here just as a recommendation and as a resource. Yep. And that is the conclusion of the presentation. So I know we have a couple of minutes left, so I'm going to stop sharing so that whoever, if you have any final thoughts or if there's anything that you would like to express, you know, feel free to go ahead. I'm definitely opening up the floor to you all. Thank you so much for your transparency, Shannon. Like, that's what I was hoping. I just want to encourage, you know, because we all struggle with things, you know, all of us.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:54:09]: But struggles don't define who we are. It just shines a light on an area that we can receive some help in. So that's why it's so important to ask for help. So thank you so much for your comment. So I'll turn it back over to you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:22]: Sounds good. Really appreciate it, Dr. Tookes, for all of this amazing information. This is something that I think everybody should be learning about because I think all of us have been impacted by this in some way through our graduate school experiences. And I love what you said about all of your faculty have experienced this in some way. And they may not talk about it, but they have dealt with it. The professionals on campus have dealt with it, they may still be dealing with it. You never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:54:52]: You know, none of us. You can't keep it in the back of your mind that I'm the only one that's not perfect. Because no one around you is perfect. None of us are perfect. So I really appreciate, Dr. Tux, you sharing this today and thank you all for being here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:55:06]: Yeah, thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:08]: Wish you all the best as you go through this term and beyond. If you need anything, please reach out. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. It's if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to seeing speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:55:47]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu

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Are you thinking about taking the leap into graduate school, or are you already on that journey and looking for reassurance and advice? In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Tameka Shepard, Academic Advisor and Business Programs Recruiter at the University of Michigan-Flint, to explore her powerful story of balancing family, career, and her pursuit of an MBA.

From the start, Tameka Shepard is candid about her motivations: a desire to give her children an example of lifelong learning, and a vision to one day open her own coffee shop. With a background in social work, she offers a unique perspective on how diverse educational experiences can complement each other—highlighting the value of understanding people in the business world. When it came to picking her MBA program, Tameka Shepard describes how flexibility was key. Western Governors University's online, self-paced structure made it possible for her to manage graduate school alongside raising kids, working full-time, and supporting a traveling spouse.

Time management and setting boundaries were crucial tools for her success. Tameka Shepard shares how she carved out early mornings and late nights for study, and how open conversations with her family helped them support her goals—reminding listeners that prioritizing your education sometimes means missing out on other events, but the long-term benefits are worth it.

The episode doesn't shy away from the challenges of grad school. Tameka Shepard bravely discusses facing imposter syndrome and struggling through a difficult class, ultimately persisting to show her children (and herself) the importance of not quitting. She highlights the freedom to take breaks to avoid burnout, and encourages others to listen to themselves—reminding us that there's no one "right" timeline for finishing a degree.

Perhaps most valuable are Tameka Shepard's reflections on what she wishes she'd known: the importance of networking, communicating effectively, and not feeling guilty about progressing at your own pace. Her story is a compelling mix of practical advice, honest emotion, and hope for others who are considering or pursuing graduate education.

Ready to be inspired by real-life experiences and actionable tips for success? Listen to the full episode with Tameka Shepard and let her journey motivate you to take the next step in yours.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person, every individual that is thinking about graduate school goes through a journey that is very unique to themselves, depending on the program, depending on who they are, where they are in their life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: And no matter if you are just at the very beginning, just starting to think about graduate school, or if you have already applied or if maybe you've been accepted or you're in graduate school, doesn't matter, you're still on that journey. And we're on that journey together. That's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk to you about ways in which you can find success in this graduate school journey that you're on. And I love introducing you to new people that have gone to graduate school before you that can give you some perspectives and some thoughts about what they had to do in that time in their own life. So today we have another great guest. Tameka shepherd is with us today, and Tameka is an academic advisor and business programs recruiter for the University of Michigan, Flint's School of Management. He's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: And I am really excited to be able to have her here and to talk to her about her own journey in graduate school and to welcome her to the show. Thanks so much for being here, Tamika.

Tameka Shepard [00:01:37]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: It is my pleasure. I really appreciate that you are here today and I always love starting the show by taking you back in time. So I know that you did your undergraduate work at Spring Arbor University and then you graduated, you graduated, you went, you started work. And at some point between that time an undergraduate student and as you were going and working, you made a decision. You made a decision that you weren't done going to college, you wanted to continue your education and you decided to go back and get a graduate degree. Take me back to that point where you were starting that process for yourself. What made you decide that that was the right time in your life to go back to graduate school?

Tameka Shepard [00:02:24]: So at that time, I just knew that I wasn't done with my education. I knew that as a full time, working, solo parenting mom at home, my husband traveled, that I wanted something more. I wanted to be able to give my kids a little something extra. I wanted them to see how important education is. And so it was just, it was good timing. I was pregnant and so I was working full time. I was working from home. And I just thought, you know, I'm not getting any younger.

Tameka Shepard [00:03:00]: I was already in my 30s and I just decided, decided I'm just gonna do it. Now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: Every student has the ability to pick any program. Now. You could have, you could have studied anything that you had wanted. You made a decision to study a mba. You decided to go and get a master's in Business Administration. And I guess first and foremost, before we even talk about where you decided to go, why an mba?

Tameka Shepard [00:03:23]: So my ultimate goal is to. This is kind of like a retirement dream is to own a coffee shop. And so my undergrad degree is in social work. Very. From a business degree. But in every aspect of business, it, I think it, it helps to know how to kind of work with individuals, especially individuals who may have mental health issues, things like that. So I do think that they kind of go hand in hand. However.

Tameka Shepard [00:03:50]: So again, my ultimate goal is to own my own business. And I wanted to have at least a foundation behind me and not kind of jumping into it blind when I'm older. And I've just always been surrounded by business minded individuals. And so I just really felt like that was kind of where my calling was.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:10]: And I know that you chose to attend Western Governor's University, and there are many MBA programs across the nation. We have one right here at the University of Michigan, Flint. So there's a lot of different options in a lot of programs that you could have chose. Talk to me about that thought process, that decision process that you went through and how you whittled that down for yourself to decide that Western Governors was the right fit for you.

Tameka Shepard [00:04:37]: So I decided on Western Governors because it is an entirely online university. And although U of M Flint has completely online MBA program at that point in time, I had a friend who was also attending Western Governors and she loved it. And the way that they structure the program is where you work on one course at a time and you can move through the course at your own pace. And that was really what kind of made me choose that program specifically. I knew that I was having a baby soon. I also had other kids at home and I needed something that was going to fit my schedule and that I could kind of work on on my own time. And nothing that was super structured with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:19]: Kids at home, with having another child on the way at the time you had A lot to balance. Especially you said having a partner, a spouse that traveled a lot. So you're balancing a lot of different things and then you're adding another thing into the mix. And a lot of graduate students are also balancing life, work, family, personal responsibilities, lots of different things. So talk to me about that balance for yourself. And how did you do that? How were you able to do that and do it well so that you could still find success in that graduate school journey?

Tameka Shepard [00:05:53]: A lot of it was managing my time and finding little bits of time throughout every day where I could read out of the textbook, watch recorded lectures, submit assignments, things like that. So sometimes, sometimes that looked like early mornings, three, four o'clock in the morning and carving out some time in the morning, sometimes it was late night. Really just kind of depended on the kids and their needs and things like that. There were a lot of family events that I had to not attend, so birthday parties for nieces and nephews. I just really made my education a priority and I managed my time in a way that I knew that if I just got it done, spend a year graduate, get my mba, that I would have the rest of my life to attend birthday parties and things like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: And every graduate student goes through a transition because the way you're educated as a undergraduate student is different than the way you're educated as a master's student is different than the way that you're educated as a doctoral student. So at every level of education, there's different expectations in regards to what your faculty expect of you, what you expect of yourself, and more so as you were going through that transition for yourself and you did find success, what did you have to do to truly set yourself up for success as you transitioned into your graduate program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of your graduate degree?

Tameka Shepard [00:07:20]: A good piece of it was talking to my kids about the importance of education and why I was choosing to go back to school and get my master's degree. And we just kind of set up boundaries about if mom is in her office, in the door is shut, that means she is working on school. That's like focus time. So no interruptions. Carving out dedicated amounts of time every day to be able to do that, but really just setting boundaries within the family so that they kind of knew what to expect.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:53]: A lot of times I hear from graduate students that there's a point in time in a graduate degree where they sometimes feel imposter syndrome, or sometimes it's self doubt regarding being a graduate student, the studies that they're in, etc. Talk to me about that for yourself and how that may have reared its head for you and how did you handle it?

Tameka Shepard [00:08:16]: So one class in particular I really struggled with and each of the classes were competency based, so you didn't necessarily earn a grade for the course itself. The average was, was a B. You had to have a 3.0 or better in the class to be able to pass it. And I could not pass this class' final exam. And they allow you to meet with a professor, go over the work, things like that. But it took multiple tries for me to understand the content. And I really struggled with that because learning has always came pretty easy to me. And so to have this one class that is just like impossible to pass, it seemed like.

Tameka Shepard [00:08:57]: And so just trying over and over and putting in all of the effort that I absolutely had, meeting with the professor multiple times to go over content, it was really a struggle. And there was a time where I thought maybe I am just not cut out for grad school. Maybe I need to just throw in the towel. But I was halfway through and I knew that I had my kids watching me and I didn't want them to see me quit. When you start something, you finish it. It's kind of what I've always taught them. And so that's what I did. I just powered through and got it done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:29]: So I mentioned the fact that you chose an MBA and you talked about your dream of owning that coffee shop down the road and having that dream for yourself. Now as you look back at what you degree you got, if you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same program or path? And if so, why? Or why not?

Tameka Shepard [00:09:48]: I would. And only because it gives a good foundation for all of the different aspects of business. That's not to say that I wouldn't maybe someday go back and get another degree or even certificates or something like that to kind of help in other areas. But the MBA really gives you kind of a well rounded foundation of all of the things that you need to be successful in a business, business or as a business owner. That's not to say that I could have a business and do all of the accounting for the business. I would not be able to do that, but I would be able to know kind of a starting point for marketing and the supply chain aspect and just all of those different areas.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:28]: Another thing that I hear from students as they're going through, and we talked about balance earlier, but sometimes students are also impacted by Burnout. And you get to that point in whether it's the midway point, whether it's your first term, it doesn't really matter. But a lot of times some students will feel burnout. How did you avoid burnout or recover when you felt overwhelmed?

Tameka Shepard [00:10:52]: So I was able to take a break in between classes if I needed to because I took them one at a time and kind of did them at my own pace. If I was able to push through six classes in a semester, great. But if I only did one, that was okay as well. So if I got to a point where I was starting to feel burnt out, I would just take a little bit of a break and not start another class until I felt like I was ready to do that. My biggest piece of advice for people when they're feeling burnt out is to take a break. That's okay. This doesn't have to be a sprint, it can be a marathon. And if you need to take your time getting the degree, that's okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:30]: How do you feel that graduate school changed the way that you think, work, or approach problems?

Tameka Shepard [00:11:36]: It definitely helps with critical thinking and being more familiar, being more aware of how other people think as well. And so I, I feel like it helps with problem solving. It definitely help with my critical thinking skills. It helps with communicating with like minded individuals. It helps with communicating with my colleagues here at the university. I think communication probably is the biggest piece. It really helps teach you how to communicate effectively.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:04]: And as you think back to when you started your graduate program, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Tameka Shepard [00:12:15]: I think the one thing that I wish somebody would have told me when I started was that it's okay to take your time and you don't have to finish in the typical allotted time that a master's degree takes. It is okay to take a break. If you need to take a break, it is okay to take one class a semester. If you can only handle one class a semester, you don't have to rush through the program. It doesn't matter how old you are when you get the degree. It age is not a factor in your success in a grad program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:49]: And finally, as you think back to your graduate school experience, what are some tips beyond what you've already shared that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Tameka Shepard [00:13:02]: Networking, talking with your fellow students Talking to and getting to know your professors Taking advantage of networking opportunities when they're being presented to you. If you're not able to attend, you know on campus networking opportunities, that's okay. But virtual networking opportunities, an internship, if that is something that you are able to do, take advantage of an. Of an internship, I think that that provides a lot of success later in life. One of the things that I wish that I would have had access to in my specific graduate program was networking and I didn't get to do that. So I feel like I missed out on that big piece of grad school. So that is probably my one big takeaway that I. That I would wish all grad students to take advantage of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:49]: Definitely. Networking is an important factor and something that you need to be. Networking with the students in your class, networking with the faculty members, finding ways to identify alumnus from the program that you've graduated from, connections with industry, doing what you can to set yourself up for meeting the goals that you've set for yourself. Just like what Tamika was just saying. But. But the other thing that I would throw out there is take advantage of opportunities that are thrown at you while you're going through your graduate program as well. I know that our school of management brings in alumni to speak and programs do that. They will bring alumnus in and these are distinguished individuals in their field and you have the opportunity then to learn from them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:38]: But then also a lot of times there's opportunities afterwards to go and talk to them and to pick their brain or meet other people that are at the same event. Connect, build those connections and you never know what doors will open. Tamika, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And it definitely sounds like your journey is not over, that you might have some more education down the road in your path. And I know that you are continuously talking to students that want to do graduate school about these different topics. So I appreciate you doing that as well. But I truly thank you for your time today and I wish you all the best.

Tameka Shepard [00:15:15]: Been a pleasure. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice.umflint.edu.

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Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week. And today I don't have a guest. I am talking to you about some of the questions that I have gotten from over the time that we've been doing this podcast and over the years to try and help to answer some of your questions. And today, the question that we're going to be answering is, how many graduate programs should you apply to?

If you've started researching graduate school, there's a moment that almost always happens.

At first, it's exciting — you're exploring programs, imagining the possibilities, picturing yourself in a new career or stepping into a leadership role. You start bookmarking program pages, saving "how to apply" checklists, and telling yourself, Okay… I'm really doing this.

And then… reality hits.

You realize there are a lot of graduate programs out there.

A LOT.

You might find yourself asking:

• "Should I apply to just one program?"
• "What if I only apply to two and don't get in?"
• "What if I apply to ten and burn out halfway through?"
• "What's the smart number?"
• "What do people normally do?"

If that's you — first, take a deep breath.

You're not behind. You're not doing it wrong. And you're definitely not the only person trying to solve this puzzle.

Today we're going to walk through this question together: How many graduate programs should you apply to?

And I'll give you a clear recommendation — but even more importantly, I'll help you choose the right number for you.

The honest answer: it depends… but not as much as you think

I know "it depends" can be the most annoying answer ever, so let me say this upfront:

Most prospective graduate students should apply to between 3 and 6 programs.

That's not just a random number — it's the sweet spot where you:

• give yourself strong options,
• reduce risk of not getting in anywhere,
• and avoid overwhelming yourself with too many applications.

But of course, there are reasons to apply to fewer… or more.

So instead of giving you a number and sending you on your way, I want to help you decide:

• What's realistic for your time and energy
• What's appropriate for your field
• What's strategic for your goals
• What gives you the best chance at admission and the best chance at success once you're in

Because here's what I tell students all the time:

Getting accepted matters… but choosing the right program matters more.

Start with this: What kind of graduate applicant are you?

Before we get into numbers, I want to ask you a question.

When you picture applying to grad school, are you someone who:

1) Wants a clear, simple plan

You want 2–3 strong options, you want to focus, and you want to avoid the stress of "too many choices."

2) Wants options and flexibility

You want to be strategic, apply broadly, compare offers, and decide later.

3) Is feeling uncertain and trying to "make sure"

You're not totally confident yet — and applying to more programs feels like a way to protect yourself.

There's no wrong answer here. But knowing which one you are helps you choose your best number.

A helpful framework: Dream, Fit, and Safe

One of the best ways to build your graduate school list is to include three categories:

• Dream Programs

These are highly competitive or highly selective. You would LOVE to get in — but you know it's not guaranteed.

• Fit Programs

These are strong matches. Your academic background, experience, and goals align well.

• Safe Programs

These are programs where you have a strong likelihood of admission. You'd still be happy attending — and they reduce anxiety.

Now here's the magic:

A strong grad application plan includes a mix of all three. That way you avoid the two biggest mistakes applicants make:

1. applying only to the most competitive programs
2. applying randomly without a strategy

So… how many programs should you apply to?

Let's break it into realistic options.

Option 1: Apply to 1–2 programs

This is okay if…

• You are geographically limited (family, job, caregiver responsibilities)
• You are applying to a very specific program that only a few schools offer
• You are already connected to a faculty member or advisor
• You are 100% sure this is the right program for you
• You have a backup plan if you don't get in

This can work.

But I'll be honest — the risk is higher. Because even strong applicants get denied sometimes for reasons that have nothing to do with them.

Examples include:

• limited cohort size
• funding availability
• faculty capacity
• too many qualified applicants

So if you're applying to only one program, I encourage you to ask:

"If I don't get in this cycle… what's my plan B?"

If you have a good answer, applying to 1–2 programs can absolutely be a smart choice.

Option 2: Apply to 3–4 programs (recommended for most people)

This is the "balanced" plan.

It works well when:

• You have limited time to apply
• You are working full-time
• You want to submit strong applications instead of rushing
• You want options, but you don't want overload

A 3–4 program plan typically looks like this:

• 1 Dream
• 2 Fit
• 1 Safe

If you want a straightforward, smart plan — this is it.

Option 3: Apply to 5–6 programs (great if you want more options)

This is also a strong approach — especially if:

• You're applying in a competitive field
• You're hoping for assistantships or funding
• You want flexibility in program format (online, hybrid, in-person)
• You want multiple choices for location or faculty

A 5–6 program plan might look like:

• 2 Dream
• 2–3 Fit
• 1 Safe

This gives you a strong chance of acceptance and the ability to compare offers.

Option 4: Apply to 7+ programs

This may be necessary if:

• You're applying to highly competitive programs (like clinical psych, funded PhDs, top-tier research programs)
• You're chasing assistantships and want to maximize funding chances
• You're applying nationally with flexible location

But I'll warn you: applying to 7+ programs can quickly become too much.

Here's why:

Graduate applications aren't like undergrad applications.

They usually require:

• detailed personal statements
• program-specific essays
• recommendation letters
• writing samples
• resumes/CVs
• sometimes interviews

And each application needs to feel personal and intentional.

If you apply to too many programs, the quality can drop — and that can cost you admission.

So if you're going beyond 6 programs, be sure you have:

• a clear timeline
• support (like a mentor, advisor, coach)
• and enough bandwidth to write well

Here's what most people forget: applications cost money and energy

Let's talk about the "invisible cost."

Yes — graduate apps can have fees.

But the bigger cost is time and emotional energy.

Because every program you apply to requires you to:

• imagine yourself there
• research faculty and curriculum
• write about your goals
• craft your future into words
• feel the hope and anxiety of "what if?"

And that adds up.

If you apply to 10 programs and burn out, you may end up submitting 10 weaker applications instead of 4 strong ones.

I'd rather see you submit 3 applications you feel proud of than 8 rushed applications you dread.

A Director's perspective: what matters more than the number

Let me give you the most important advice I can offer as someone who reads applications and supports graduate students every day.

The best number of programs to apply to is the number you can apply to WELL.

That's it.

A strong application feels like:

• clear goals
• a strong "why this program?"
• alignment with curriculum and faculty
• maturity and readiness
• polished writing

And those things take time.

So instead of asking:

"How many programs should I apply to?"

Try asking:

"How many strong applications can I realistically submit in the next 6–10 weeks?"

That will guide you to the right number almost every time.

My recommendation (and a simple takeaway)

If you're still unsure, here's the clearest guidance I can give:

Apply to 4 programs if:

• you're working full-time
• you want to avoid burnout
• you want a focused approach

Apply to 5–6 programs if:

• your field is competitive
• you want to maximize scholarship/assistantship possibilities
• you want options across format and location

Apply to 2–3 programs if:

• your options are limited by location or lifestyle
• you're already highly confident and prepared
• you have a backup plan

And if you're applying to 7+ programs, you're not wrong — just make sure you're set up to do it sustainably.

One final encouragement

If you're listening to this and feeling overwhelmed, I want you to know this:

You don't have to have the perfect number.

You just need a plan that protects your energy, increases your chances, and keeps you moving forward.

Grad school isn't about chasing prestige — it's about choosing a program that fits your life and supports your goals.

So yes, apply strategically.

But also apply with hope.

Because you're not just applying to programs.

You're applying to a future you're building on purpose.

And that's something to be proud of.

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Embarking on graduate school is more than a simple academic step—it's a deeply personal journey, one that evolves and reshapes your goals, expectations, and life direction. The latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast welcomes Michael Sevick, Professor Emeritus from the University of Michigan-Flint, to share his inspiring story of growth, perseverance, and transformation through higher education.

From his beginnings at what is now Mott Community College to earning a Bachelor of Fine Arts at the University of Michigan, and ultimately achieving an MFA—the terminal degree in his field—Michael Sevick's trajectory is a testament to resilience and purposeful planning. He didn't take the straightest course: after his associate's degree, he paused his education to pursue music, returning later with renewed commitment to finish his bachelor's and then move into graduate study.

A key theme in this episode is the importance of intentionality and adaptability. Michael Sevick discusses applying to several graduate schools, carefully weighing family, work, and personal responsibilities—all while keeping his professional and creative aspirations in focus. His approach underscores the value of aligning educational pursuits with life circumstances and long-term goals.

The conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis pulls back the curtain on the real challenges of graduate education: managing transitions, facing imposter syndrome, and adapting to higher expectations. Michael Sevick shares candid moments of doubt and anxiety—especially as he moved straight from being a student to teaching others. His experience highlights the necessity of support networks, mentorship, and self-advocacy in maintaining balance during demanding times.

Listeners will also take away practical advice on time management, perseverance, and leveraging campus resources. Michael Sevick urges students to seek out help, use support systems, and remember that most people you meet in graduate programs genuinely want you to succeed.

Whether you're considering graduate school, already on your way, or simply in need of motivation, this episode is packed with valuable lessons and heartfelt encouragement. Michael Sevick's journey reminds us that roadblocks can become stepping stones, and that with the right mindset and support, graduate school can be a profoundly rewarding adventure.

Tune in and be inspired by a story of perseverance, community, and lifelong learning. Begin your own journey toward becoming a victor in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you are on. And I call it a journey because every student that's thinking about graduate school and goes on a journey, whether you're at the very beginning and you're just starting to think about this, you've maybe you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. Throughout this entire process, you're going to be going through a personal journey toward the goals that you've set for yourself. That's why this show exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:48]: This show is here to be able to help you to find ways that you can be successful in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I love being able to have different people with different experiences that can talk to you about the journey that they went on. And then you can learn a little bit for yourself and take what you hear, set it aside, doesn't matter, learn from them, and hopefully be able to find some tips, some tools, some tricks, some things that you can do to help you on the journey that you personally will have. Today we have another great guest. Mike Sevik is with us today. And Mike is a professor emeritus from the University of Michigan, Flint. He was an associate professor of art for many years at the University of Michigan, Flint. We're going to be talking to him about his journey from starting at a community college to moving to a bachelor's, to a master's and then to teaching.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: So really excited to be able to have him here and for us to learn from him and his own journey. Mike, thanks so much for being here today.

Michael Sevick [00:01:52]: Thanks for having me. I hope this helps.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And I'm going to turn the clock back in time. I want to go all the way back. I want to go back to. Let's go back to the beginning in the sense of you started your undergraduate work at Mott Community College. It wasn't called Mott Community College at that time, but. But the equivalent of Mott Community College before you went on and got your Bachelor of Fine Arts degree at the University of Michigan. And at some point in that time of being at the University of Michigan, you had a calling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:24]: There was a calling to you to Continue your education. Because you did get that Bachelor of Fine Arts at BFA and you could have stopped there, could have gone and painted and worked as a painter. But you decided to go and get that terminal degree. And for those of you that don't know in the fine arts area, the Master of Fine Arts degree is a terminal degree. So you went on and you got that mfa. Bring me back to that point where, where you said, where in your head you said to yourself, yes, I'm gonna keep going on. Why did you decide to go on? Why was it a right time to go for graduate school?

Michael Sevick [00:02:56]: Yeah, you're correct that I started at Flint Community College, which is now Mott Community College. And that would have been 1970. And I was there for a year or so and left college to pursue other interests. I was in a rock and roll band and decided to do that for a while. But I came from a family of painters. So my grandfather was a painter. He owned Civic Sign Company here in Flint in the 1920s and that. And my father was an artist and my uncle.

Michael Sevick [00:03:22]: So I just sort of. You're right. I probably could have always fallen back on do I need school? Do I need education? And that. But at the time, Mott Community College only had a two year program. And so I got my associate's degree, took the time off to pursue other interests. But then in the 80s, I decided to come back to school, to Mott. I needed a few credits in order to transfer. My plan was to go to a larger school that offered a bachelor's degree in fine Arts Arts.

Michael Sevick [00:03:53]: So I got my associate's degree right after that. I got accepted into University of Michigan, Ann Arbor's art program. I took my portfolio and all my letters and a lot of energy and sat down with the director there, who was a wonderful man, looked at my work and said, we'd love to have you in our undergrad program. And I was in that program for two years and that. I graduated in 88. And I. Right away I wanted to go to graduate school. Because at that time I was already in my mid-30s.

Michael Sevick [00:04:26]: And so I applied to the five different graduates. And I had a family and kids already, the five different schools in my area. I lived in Swartz Creek, which is near Flint. And those five schools, you know, Wayne State and Michigan State and U of M and just where I could commute to. I got accepted to three of them. Luckily, after my. My undergrad one of them, I was only accepted into the master's program. And I wanted the MFA you mentioned the terminal degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:04]: I wanted the MFA and to me to spend an extra time in a master's program. I thought I could focus my energy and just, just try to do the mfa. So I took the MFA offer. One is offered different packages. It's like a sports personality I guess. One of them offered an assistants right away and what that was was teaching. I would do my class load but then I also had to teach a certain amount. And those students that I had were the, bless their hearts, they were the freshmen people that are just first coming in.

Michael Sevick [00:05:40]: And in Ann Arbor the schools was quite large so the senior faculties could actually choose and pick more designer friendly classes for them to work in. But I was lucky enough to then graduate with my MFA in two years. So 1990 I got out of there with honors and friends and networking and sort of the. I didn't realize it at the time, but now when I look back that was the ladder or the next bridge or the, the steps to the next part of my career which was I had to teach right away because I had all these bills in a family and all that. So I think still my last semester in graduate school I was lucky enough to get a teaching position at Schoolcraft Community College, which is in Livonia and it's kind of a feeder U of M. Luckily they would kind of look after their graduates sometimes and try and direct them into programs that they knew were might be available or needy. And then from, from there I was lucky enough to sort of come back to Flint. There was some substitute offerings, they were just starting their art program.

Michael Sevick [00:06:52]: And I was recommended by again the networking thing that I made in graduate connected me to the school craft jobs. The, the jobs at all the other colleges that I worked at until I finally were was able to land a tenured position at U of M Flint, which is what I wanted. All that was my plan. When I went back to get my degree. I didn't want to move, I didn't want to sell my house, I didn't want to leave my wife and kids. Everything had to be threaded like a web. And I can't believe how things worked out almost the way that I sort of planned.

Michael Sevick [00:07:27]: When you transition from an undergraduate degree into a graduate degree, there are different expectations, there's different perspectives, there's different ways of learning. And there truly is a transition when you go from undergraduate education into graduate education in those expectations and beyond. So as you made that transition into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success. Throughout the entire graduate school journey, I worked pretty hard.

Michael Sevick [00:07:57]: I made sure that I was kind of indispensable in a way. I didn't know what they needed, but I was ready to do it. Never taught that class, but sure, I'll do some research and I'll teach it. I know a guy who did teach that class and I'm going to call him and ask him some notes or what was his perspective. And I tried to use that. Luckily I had a couple of mentors who were very, very gracious in helping me when I had just anxiety questions. I couldn't believe, you know, I graduated from graduate school and the next semest teaching. And as I'm walking into the class for the first time, I was just going, they're going to find out I don't know what I'm doing and I'm not prepared for this.

Michael Sevick [00:08:38]: And the poor kids that I'm going to have to be teaching. And then something kind of clicked when I walked in and they sort of hello, professor, or hello Mr. Sevik. And I was no longer that grad student and I was no longer an undergrad. I wasn't even Mike Sevik anymore. I was professional Professor Mike Saidk, instructor or whatever you want to call it. But that sense of responsibility made me want to do better and do more. But the question you asked about the undergraduate and graduate perspective, it.

Michael Sevick [00:09:09]: It is totally different. I remember as an undergrad looking at the graduates in a particular way. That changed when I was a graduate student looking at the undergrad students. And then when I eventually did graduate and became an instructor, I imagine I looked at my graduate students a little bit different as well. The assistantship, the ability to work while I was a graduate student really helped me in that again, that first class. When I'm not a graduate student anymore, I'm an instructor. I'm walking into class. What do I do having that assistantship, even though it was under the.

Michael Sevick [00:09:45]: My first year assistant, I was under the. I had a professor that I had to coordinate some of the class and classwork. They did that grading and the heavy lifting and I did the other stuff. But then my second year as a graduate student, a TA colleague and myself, we were given the classes so we didn't have a professor anymore looking over us and that. But there was two of us. So that was. Class was 90, but there was still two of us. And then when I got my first class at schoolcraft, my first set of.

Michael Sevick [00:10:18]: I think they gave me three. They were manageable class of 2025. They were all classes that I really liked. A design class, art history class, art appreciation, a drawing class, the beginning classes.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:31]: So as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about others that are coming behind you, was there anything that you wish you had known before you had started graduate school that would have helped you to find success?

Michael Sevick [00:10:47]: I don't know if it would help me necessarily. It would have. I didn't realize you are invited into the program and you can be invited out of the program, which happened. There was four of us that got into the program and the mfa, and three of us made it through the first year, but one did not. And I didn't quite realize the seriousness of, you know, as an undergrad. And they can't really kick you out. You know, I guess you could flunk out or you drop out and all that. But it's very rare that the school says, we're going to ask you to leave.

Michael Sevick [00:11:21]: So that brought home that second year. Things got more serious. I realized I probably had passed my probation point, so they weren't going to kick me out. And I was doing pretty good, pretty good stuff. But I didn't know that. So I think one's very lucky to get into a graduate program. And once you're in it, keep that in mind. Be grateful and work real hard and try not to burn bridges.

Michael Sevick [00:11:46]: Everybody has people they like and don't like, but that's part of life. And you might have a professor that you don't care for personally, but, boy, I bet you they know their stuff, because they probably wouldn't be where they are at if they didn't.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:01]: Now, also, as you think about graduate school, did you find that there was a defining moment or a turning point in graduate school that shaped your academic or professional journey?

Michael Sevick [00:12:13]: Again, I was pretty lucky out of the bat. So there were some awards and some accolades that I got that first semester, and my ego was inflated and probably a little arrogant and all that, but as an artist, as a painter especially, dealing in Ann Arbor is like a little Europe. There's people from all over and there's all kinds of skills. And the guy painting next to me was from China, and the guy across the. The hall was from Russia. And I had a Japanese. Just huge competition. And I think one of the things it did for me was it rose me up to that.

Michael Sevick [00:12:51]: You know, you're always questioning yourself. You know, where. Where do I fit in? How good am I? Well, I'm in this level of my education. What does that mean how do I stack up against similar. Similar people? Probably a little more competitive back then than it is now. But like I said, there was only three of us that made it through that program and two finally graduated.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:11]: So talk to me about balance, because, you know, when you're going through graduate school, like you said, you have a family, you've got friends, you've wearing many hats. You're trying to balance being the good student, the graduate assistant. You know, there's lots of things you're trying to balance as you're trying to also be successful in your academics. So how did you balance school, work, family, other personal responsibilities while also being a graduate student in a rigorous program?

Michael Sevick [00:13:38]: I think I had a wonderful support team from my wife and my kids and my mom and dad and the networking people that I made along the way, other fellow artists, and that helped a lot. I was always playing as a musician all through graduate school as well. So I was able to earn enough money to survive being a musician, but not to thrive. And at some point, having no health insurance and, and all that, I realized this is not good. So the idea of getting a tenured position someplace down the road really drove that car. But I had a wonderful support group and it, for me, it took a village to get where I am now. I don't know if I could have done it by myself. I probably would have tried.

Michael Sevick [00:14:27]: But if one has help and support, even in the smallest ways, take it. I remember my grandmother, when I first started going to College, giving me $1,500. And back then, that was a lot of money, and I felt obligated to pay her back somehow, maybe not with money, but with what I could do. But that's an example. I think people love you. They support you, get their help, take their help, and then pass it on. When you're in that position, remember that and say, you know what? I can help you. This happened to me.

Michael Sevick [00:14:58]: So let me. It might, might work for you, it might not, but. But at least you're listening. And I think that dialogue is important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:04]: I hear from a lot of students that figuring out that time management piece is so critical, especially when you start in graduate school because of the balance and you're having to focus in on the academics, but you're also having to focus in on everything else and making sure that nothing, none of the balls are dropped. So for you, what time management strategies did you put in place to help you be successful?

Michael Sevick [00:15:27]: Yeah, the scheduling on all of the different aspects of my life was really important. So I tried to get classes early in the day. I tried to be, make the drive home from Ann Arbor here by afternoon, late afternoon, and compartmentalize things that were important. Like I said, I did have a wonderful support. I do have wonderful support. My wife was able to take some of my duties, running the household or whatever I did and cover that. Anyone I worked for, I was able to kind of, whether it was a painting, I was working, doing commissions. Also if I did a gig, I'd make sure it was on a weekend and it was tried to turn down lesser paying gigs.

Michael Sevick [00:16:09]: I thought, I've got a great idea. I'm just not going to pay for play for less money anymore. I'll charge more and, and I'll make all kinds of money. And of course that didn't work out. It was the same with selling my paintings. When they wouldn't sell for 500, I thought, well, I'll just double the price and see if I can sell them for a thousand. What's, what's the difference? And. But then I, I sold a couple.

Michael Sevick [00:16:29]: I said, oh, okay, maybe that does make a difference. You know, you're self worth management though. I would imagine most anybody that's in a graduate program probably has a pretty good idea of what it's going to take or what it's taking to be successful. And if you don't maybe talk to someone about helping me organize my time and you probably have programs like that, don't you?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:56]: There are definite resources on campus that can help students to be able to figure that out and to manage that in a better way. And I think every campus has something that's there to hopefully support students in that regard. So all in all, I mean there are resources that are there for students. You have to search them out, you have to ask, you have to advocate for yourself and be willing to say I need help and that's important.

Michael Sevick [00:17:20]: I totally agree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]: I guess finally, as you think back to your own graduate school experience, what are some tips that you'd offer other individuals that are thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Michael Sevick [00:17:32]: Well, you know, like I said, in my case I took some time off. I guess just be careful. If anyone's planning on a hiatus and coming back. I understand life happens, illnesses and successes and opportunities and stuff like that. But if you can avoid those recesses, it does help because postgraduate school is full and you can fill that with a lot. And time is one of those commodities that is not renewable and got so much. So take advantage of it, work hard, work fast, try and do it. If you have to take a break, work with the institution.

Michael Sevick [00:18:15]: Because I didn't realize when I was in graduate school, my one of my parents were ill and I didn't realize there were mechanisms for me to take time off but still be a student, still participate. And they're the thing that I learned was they were there for me, for my success. Almost everyone that you encounter wants you to succeed. They're trying to help keep that in mind. And it's a lot easier to take that in and say, oh, you're saying that because you want to help me. I get it. You're not out to crush me or hurt me. It's a positive thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:48]: Well, Mike, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today. Thank you for sharing your journey and all of the information that you shared to that you learned in your own experience. And I truly wish you all the best.

Michael Sevick [00:19:00]: Vice versa. And to all the graduate students and potential graduate students, enjoy your journey. It's a wonderful, wonderful time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:08]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

View Details

If you're considering graduate school, feeling uncertain about your career direction, or wondering how to overcome obstacles along the way, the latest episode of Victors in Grad School is an inspiring must-listen. In this candid conversation, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse—faculty member at the University of Michigan-Flint and Director of the Inclusive History Project—to share her remarkable journey from first-generation college student to tenured professor.

Themes of Resilience and Self-Discovery

One of the strongest themes throughout the episode is the importance of self-discovery and adaptability. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse describes how she began her academic journey with aspirations to become an engineer, drawn by the promise of a lucrative career. However, after facing academic challenges and realizing her passion for humanities, she boldly changed her major to Women's Studies with a minor in Native American Studies.

Her honest reflection on the embarrassment and fear of changing majors—and the eventual pride in pursuing a path she loved—serves as a powerful reminder that the undergraduate years are a time for self-discovery. As Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse puts it, "undergrad is really about self-discovery and figuring out what you are passionate about and what you're good at."

Finding Your 'Why' and Keeping Education a Priority

The podcast explores the critical importance of understanding your motivation, or "why," when pursuing graduate education. Facing academic probation early on, Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse shares how establishing her goals helped her prioritize her studies over distractions. She emphasizes the necessity of delayed gratification, citing how sacrifices made in the present can lead to future rewards.

For anyone balancing work, school, and life, her advice resonates: "To do well and achieve at a high level, education can't be your side hustle. It needs to be your primary focus."

Mentorship, Support, and Building Community

A standout lesson is the value of seeking help and building a support network. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse encourages students to engage with faculty, campus resources, and mentors—even those who may not share similar backgrounds. She credits her success to mentors who pushed her with compassion and honesty, reminding listeners that real growth comes from accountability and empathy.

Navigating Change and Overcoming Challenges

From moving across states, adapting to new cultures, and overcoming imposter syndrome as a first-generation student, Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse shares how each experience built the resilience necessary for graduate school and beyond. Her candid stories about culture shock, isolation, and finding her community in Michigan are both relatable and motivating for anyone facing similar transitions.

Final Takeaway

This episode of Victors in Grad School offers invaluable insights on overcoming setbacks, embracing change, and building meaningful connections. Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse's journey is a testament to persistence and the lasting rewards of pursuing a path that aligns with both passion and purpose. If you're navigating your own educational journey, tune in for encouragement, practical advice, and inspiration to keep going—no matter where you start or what challenges you face.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey. Each person that is thinking about graduate school will go through a different experience and will be on their own journey as that leads them to a specific program, a specific degree, and then beyond the program into the world of work and what you plan to do with that degree itself. And every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share some of the journeys that they've been on, whether they are currently in graduate school, graduated a while back, or whatever their journey was.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: But each person can share with you something a little bit different. So today I'm really excited to be able to introduce you to a new guest. Dr. Lisa Laperouse is with us today. And Dr. Laparouse is a faculty member at the University of Michigan, Flint, but she's also also the director of the Inclusive History Project at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she has her own graduate school journey that led her from being in California to Arizona to Michigan and being here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited for her to be able to reflect back and share some of her own experiences with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Dr. Laperouse, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:01:46]: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: So I want to take you back in time and I want to go back because I know that you did your undergraduate degree at the University of California, Davis. And at some point during that time at UC Davis, you made a decision. You made a decision because you were getting a Bachelor of Arts degree in Women's Studies with a minor in Native American Studies. And at some point you made a decision to keep going and to go on further for a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head as you were making those decisions?

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:02:20]: Well, let me give you a little bit of background information. So I'm a first generation college student. And so the idea was sold to me early on. In elementary school, we went to Mott Field where they have NASA Aerospace, and they constantly said, if you went to college, you'd make a lot of money. So in fifth grade, I was like, sign me up. And I was very Impressed with my mock fields, I was like, I'm going to be an engineer. Engineers make great money. And so that was my thought process through middle school, through high school, until I went to college.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:02:55]: I went to college and I was a high performer at unfortunately a low performing school. So what that means is I did not have the best academic preparation for university life. And I think I started out having this idea of, well, you know, I played sports, I was class president, you know, all I have to do is go to school. So this is going to be easy. In my first semester I was on academic probation and I quickly had to change up my study habits and my focus because I thought, oh, this is so embarrassing, I'm the first to go and I'm going to be the first to get kicked out. So part of that though was I was still interested in pursuing engineering. And engineering requires you to take a lot of advanced math courses. And as a high schooler, I had the option.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:03:51]: My school did not offer calculus. If you wanted to take calculus, you had to be bused to a different school at 7 o' clock in the morning before school actually started. And I was class president and I had the option to take the leadership class with my friends or calculus. And I made the decision to hang out with my friends in leadership rather than calculus. So the first time I ever saw calculus was in a quarter system. So U of M Flint is, is on a semester system. A quarter system changes classes every about seven weeks. That is not how you want to experience calculus for your first time.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:04:28]: There were a lot of tears, a lot of office hours, and by my second semester I had realized that I can continue down this pathway, but it was going to be very difficult. I was rocking these humanities, I was doing really well and we'd have to read like seven books a semester. And I thought, well, this is going to be embarrassing. I told everybody it was going to be an engineer. I had the T shirt, but I ended up needing to change my major and then I changed it to Women and Gender Studies. What's now Women and Gender Studies was gender studies then. And to be honest with you, I didn't know what other job there would be other than becoming a professor with that job. So.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:05:13]: And I also was embarrassed that I had to change my major. And I had told everyone I was going to be this great engineer. So now I said if I tell them I'm going to become a professor without really having any idea what I was talking about. I thought that would be acceptable in my grandfather who was very Important to me. I grew up for the majority of my first 15 years of life with my grandparents. His response was, well, that's not too shabby. So I got the seal of approval to pursue that. So my process was, okay, I need to go to graduate school and become a professor.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:05:48]: But again, I really didn't know what that meant. And also at the time that I was studying undergrad, this was the time that affirmative action was being challenged. Ethnic studies, any type of branches out of history that wasn't just U.S. history were being challenged, like the validity of those. And so I was also thinking about job prospects. Was there going to be a department available to me to work? And so when I went into my master's program, which was at the University of Arizona, it was a joint program between Mexican American studies and public health. And then again, there was still challenges about the utility of a Mexican American studies degree. So when I decided to go for my PhD, I decided to go into a more traditional, direct relationship between the, the DEGR and an employment opportunity.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:06:45]: So I went into public health.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:47]: Every person goes on when they're thinking about going to graduate school. They, they go through their own journey to determine where do I want to go, what do I want to do, what type of field do I want to study? Kind of what you were talking about. And you ended up at the University of Arizona. So talk to me a little bit about that journey for yourself. What was going through your head as you were looking at different programs and trying to determine what would be the best fit and what made the University of Arizona the best fit for you?

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:07:13]: So I think the undergrad is really about self discovery and figuring out what are you really passionate about and what are you good at. And I had taken a special elective course with somebody that was in public health. I didn't even know that existed. I thought the only way to study health was to become a doctor. And I was not interested in that. I am something that's called a sympathetic vomiter. If you vomit, I'm going to vomit. I have a very weak stomach.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:07:45]: I just knew that I was not cut out for that. But learning about myself, learning about history, learning about my community, really was exciting to me. I was very interested to that. And that work I would complete first. And so that's some of the things you want to look for is what are you gravitating towards, what are you doing really well in school? What do you leave to the side because you're like, oh, this is agonizing. And that may mean you Know, unfortunately, changing your major, but the benefit of going to college is that you do get to pick your career. Like for me, most of my family do jobs because they, that's what they have to do to pay the bills. I have the privilege of doing something not only to pay the bills, but something I enjoy and get fulfillment out of.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:08:32]: So when I was making that transition, I applied to both PhD programs and master's programs and I was pretty defeated. How I decided to go to Arizona was I only got accepted to one program, so it was an easy choice and I had a very good gpa. But I think for undergrads that are thinking about graduate school, something to think about is PhD programs have really small acceptance. They accept cohorts, and a large cohort is 10 to 15 people. And they're mostly going to select, I would say probably 90% of them, if not more, will select somebody that already has a Master's. So it's important to look at the Master's programs as well and things that align with your service, things that align with your grades and any type of clubs that you did, because then they can see that you have this outstanding interest in that area for your graduate school. So for me, I had done an honors thesis in preparation to try and get accepted into a graduate program, knowing that this would give me some research experience so that I would be a more attractive candidate and hopefully get a position as a research assistant in graduate school. How I learned about the Mexican American Studies program at the University of Arizona was I was on campus.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:09:53]: I used to hang out on campus all the time and there was a poster on a bulletin board and it was not well publicized. And so they were actually quite surprised to see an out of state student applied to their position. And I was part of their first graduating class and it was a great fit. But some of the things that I did consider that some people may want to also think about is I did know that I wanted to go to graduate school. I had talked to a lot of people about it and there were lots of people that told me that they planned to go back to graduate school. But I noticed that they were five and 10 years out and still hadn't did that. And I was like, I don't want to be in that situation. Also, I was very cognizant of, unfortunately my parents did not qualify for school loans.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:10:41]: So all of my education was funded by myself, myself taking out school loans, scholarships. So I was very aware of after six months those school loans were going to kick in and I was going to have to start paying those back. And I didn't want to get a job and start a lifestyle that my income would support and then not want to go back to being a starving student again. So I was like, let me just stay a poor student all the way through and just get this done early on and not promise myself I'm going to do it and then never complete that goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:15]: And then after that master's degree, you went on and you continued to get Another degree, a PhD in health behavior and Health Education at the University of Michigan. That's a far distance away from where you did your bachelor's and your master's degree. And you went from warmer weather to very cold weather in the winters and having to adjust and really push yourself out of a comfort zone of being in an area where you probably were more comfortable and you knew kind of the culture and you. And you felt a part of the culture where then you moved to a brand new area. So talk to me about that decision process and how you ended up at the University of Michigan.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:11:58]: So when I was an undergrad, I did not graduate with high honors. And so I made it a personal mission that I was going to graduate with honors in my master's program, and I did graduate with a 4.0. However, they did not have high honors at my university, which I thought I was going to get the cum laude distinction, but the school didn't allow that. I should say, too, it's so important to have that high gpa because I did not test well on my gre, my graduate record exam. Same thing with the sat. And we know that one of the highest predictors of those scores is your area zip code. So it has to do a lot with the resources that are available to an individual. So, you know, I think I faced a lot of mental challenges, emotional challenges, about whether or not I fit in a university, because I just didn't have the same pedigree or the same experiences as others.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:13:06]: And it did take me having to think things through and remember that, no, I'm the one that's sitting in those classes. I'm the one that's doing those exams that I also deserve a place there. But that has remained an ongoing challenge. You know, I'm currently, I'm the only tenured Latina professor that I know on our campus, and that's a lonely space to be in. And that comes with some challenges. If I start getting heated in a meeting and are they going to stereotype me as the spicy Latina or whatever? So. So I got a 4.0. So what that meant was I applied to the top five public health programs in the country and I was accepted into Michigan.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:13:48]: And it's, I'll be honest with you, I only got into one program and that was U of M. And so I'm a religious person. I was like, okay, God has directed me. He only gave me one option for my master's program and one option for my PhD. And so I had only been to the snow once in my life before moving to Michigan. I didn't own a stitch of black clothing because you don't wear black when you live in Arizona. I only had tank tops and flip flops and shorts. So I was completely ill prepared to be in Michigan.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:14:23]: Also living on the west coast. I'm from the Bay Area. There's a lot of ethnic diversity. Did not that experience that so much in Michigan in Ann Arbor, even though Ann Arbor is a large campus. So that was also challenging in my PhD program too. That was the first time that I had ever been around a lot of students of color that were wealthy and were not first generation students. So it took me some time to kind of find my people in my support network that I had some commonalities. And there were actually a group of us Latinas from California that were first gen that hung out and kind of supported each other.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:15:04]: But yeah, it was definitely a culture shock. So I mean everything I remember when I, when I got here, everybody was driving American made cars. You know, because you have Ford, you have GM here and back in the Bay Area everybody drove Hondas. And I was like, where are all the Hondas? Where are the people with the piercings? Where's all the colored hair? Like I was just so used to a different way of life. And so I think that can be an unexpected challenge of how hard it's going to be to kind of integrate yourself into a new kind of environment. And so that does take getting outside your comfort zone and meeting people, joining clubs, getting out of the house and trying to find your community so that you do have that support. Because fortunately for me, as much as my family wanted to be supportive, they had never gone through the experiences that I had in college. So it was really hard for them to wrap their head around what the challenges were or why I was so upset about not doing well on the exam.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:16:07]: And actually my mom had asked me to leave college a couple of times because I called home crying saying it was so hard. And she was like, if this is going to be this distressing to you, Then maybe you should leave. And I thought, oh my God, what bad advice. Like I'll suck it up, you know, so it's difficult, but it's not impossible. Find your people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: So you found success in your master's degree, your doctorate degree. And as you moved into those different places, there are different expectations and different expectations from being an undergraduate student to being a master's student, to being a doctoral student. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. And as you think back to the transition to the University of Arizona, the University of Michigan, and to the different programs and the different expectations of faculty, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those programs? And it may be different at both the master's and doctoral level.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:17:09]: I think the very first thing I had to do, especially after that first semester being on academic program probation, is understanding my why. Why was I there? Why was this important? What was that long term goal and making sure that my education was my priority. It couldn't be socializing with my friends, it couldn't be. Like I said at the time, there was affirmative action being challenged. It wasn't sleeping on the steps and doing the hunger strike, it was going to rallies and stuff. But my primary goal was to graduate. And so that really meant prioritizing and making sacrifices to ensure that that was always at the forefront of what I was doing. And I would have to say that that was the case all throughout.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:17:55]: You know, when I had a lot of friends that didn't go to college and they were buying fancy cars and they always had money and I was like trying to scrape together 20 bucks to buy a pizza. And I thought, wow, like they have these great lifestyles. What am I doing? And you really have to accept, accept delayed gratification because eventually the tables did turn where that nice sports car, well, they're still driving it 10 years later and you know, they took a lot longer to move out of their parents homes. And so the fruits of your labor do show up, but it's not necessarily as quickly as you'd like. And so coming to terms with that, I think is also important for myself. I've lived across the country for a very long time from my family. And I had to again understand for myself why that sacrifice was necessary to keep going. Because it's hard.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:18:57]: You know, I missed all the birthdays, all the big celebrations, but again, I had specific goal that I had in mind and I kept that as A priority. And that's not to say I never went home, but it wasn't the same as living in the same city or the same state where you can go home for the barbecues and all this other stuff. You know, there were a lot of things that I did miss. So I think the delayed gratification, I think continuing to prioritize your education as first as a faculty person, I know a lot of students have to work full time. I had to work also, but I worked on campus. I worked jobs that were, I would say, complimentary to my work schedule. Because to do well and to achieve like at a high level, education can't be your side hustle. It needs to be your primary focus.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:19:48]: And sometimes it's not the right time to go to school. I'm not saying that you're not cut out for school because if you would have looked at my profile in high school, child of a teenage mother, you know, I had all the indicators that I would not be a college, let alone a PhD, somebody with a PhD. So I think also you have to find the self esteem in yourself to keep going and the courage because there will be people, instructors included, that'll say that maybe you're not cut out for this, but you have to work with the tenacity and a resilience to continue to push through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:25]: So as you think about your graduate degree and you think about the different degrees that you received along the way, you started in one area, you ended up in public health. And as you reflect back on your undergrad, your grad, your doctoral degrees, talk to me about the interplay with those degrees. Because not everybody, when they go and get an undergraduate degree is going to get a job specifically in that specific area. You may end up in a very different place than where you began. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and the learning and how it built upon each other to where you ended in teaching in the area that you're teaching now.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:21:06]: I really kind of think as an undergraduate education as the mechanism to help you identify credible information and to really be a critical thinker. This is the time where you really learn how to identify sources of information and evaluate them to figure out are there motives behind the person that is advertising this or making this statement. So you become a critical thinker and those critical thinking systems skills are applicable in any type of position. I feel like in the master's program, now that you have identified where to find information, you have a better command of knowledge in your specific areas. So then you can start to really Craft important questions about the gaps that remain there, and start to move science forward by pursuing new kind of pathways to understanding certain phenomena. And, you know, for people that have historically been excluded or underrepresented in universities, their voices, their perspectives are important because we may not have heard them before. So I think the first thing is about kind of discovery and finding information. The second part in the master's is really about beginning to start to ask our own questions.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:22:30]: And then in the PhD, I think it's about creating knowledge. It's not just asking the questions, but now pursuing those questions and helping to find answers, moving science again forward and challenging existing thought processes. So with the inclusive history project, one of the things that we do is there are narratives that are put forward and, you know, they're evidence based. But one of the things that we do is say, well, whose voices are represented and whose voices are missing? And is this a comprehensive understanding of these events or are there perspectives that are missing and maybe can give us a better and more nuanced understanding? So again, it's continuing to be a critical thinker, but it's also learning how to use the skills and apply them to challenge or to expand what we know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: Now, as you think about graduate students or individuals thinking about becoming a graduate student, and you think back to your, your own experiences, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school, no matter what they are going into, that would help them to find success sooner?

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:23:44]: Ask for help. That is what faculty are here for. And as faculty go on these retreats and we think very deeply about the courses that we teach, the content, the textbooks, I think students would be really surprised how much thought and time goes into planning these things. And when we've gone to these retreats and they ask what inspires you? Everybody mentions students. So most of us do this job because we really find it fulfilling and we like to work with students. And so I know for myself, I was very intimidated being in the academic environment. I didn't speak in class until my junior year of undergrad because I was so terrified of saying something dumb. Now we have a hard time keeping me quiet in any kind of situation.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:24:33]: But you cannot do this alone. You need to have support. And sometimes your friends or your peers are not the best support for you, because sometimes it's the blind leading the blind. And so it's so important to get to know your resources on campus as well as your faculty. And don't wait. It's so much easier for faculty to help you when you approach them sooner rather than later. And, you know, for myself, I had a lot of life happen to me when I was in school. And so, you know, find that person who's not just going to be a cheerleader and tell you everything's great, but somebody find a good mentor that is going to be honest with you, hold you to accountability, but also do that with empathy and compassion.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:25:22]: And related to that, I think that I was under the impression that to find a good mentor, the mentor had to be similar to me. They had to be a woman. They had to be, you know, Latina. And I joke about this, but I've had mentors and I've had tormentors. And the tormentors were people that really just broke me down and said, you know, these are all the things you're doing wrong. And it was really defeating. And one of my very best mentors was Dr. Woody Neighbors at U of M, and he's an African American male.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:25:58]: And so I say this to say, don't discount somebody just because they don't share the same background as you. Find somebody that is invested in your success. But again, that's going to hold you to a high standard, because those relationships will really help you when you do encounter challenges. And that is inevitable in the PhD program. Sometimes you have people that have been successful all the way through. They rock undergrad, they rock their Masters program, and then they get into the PhD program, and all of a sudden they're starting to have some challenges. And that can be really emotionally tolling because you see yourself as this very successful person. And so, again, it's really important to have that support to make sure that you just don't go, don't complete your degree, because that happens a lot, too.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:26:46]: So being connected, I think, is so core to being well. And I know everybody loves the online environment, but making the commitment to go to campus to be involved in different things, you're only going to be in school for a small blip of your life. And so it's worth the investment, because this is where in my PhD program, I met so many people that they're writing books. I mean, they are doing fabulous things. I can use them for job references, job leads. You never know where that relationship could possibly take you. So it's worth investing that time and effort beyond just the classroom.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:25]: Well, Elise, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. And it is definitely something that I think that everybody can learn from, because all of us go through these ups and downs, and it's kind of a roller coaster as you go through graduate school and hopefully it's more ups than downs. But there are always going to be those peaks and valleys and you shared some of your own as you went through your own experience. But I truly want to say thank you for sharing your journey today and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Lisa Lapeyrouse [00:27:53]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradofficemflint.edu.

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Are you considering graduate school or seeking inspiration for your academic journey? This week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast is a must-listen. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint, the show features a rich conversation with Dr. George White, Professor of Strategic Management and Director of the Doctorate in Business Administration Program at UM-Flint.

The episode opens with Dr. George White sharing his unique educational path, beginning as the first in his family to attend college. Coming from a rural, modest background, his story starts with working night shifts and attending a community college in Alabama. He highlights how determination and hard work paved his way to the University of Alabama and later, a life-changing exposure to Asian history and culture.

A key theme of the podcast is the role of inspiration and mentorship. Dr. George White recalls the professors who encouraged his academic curiosity and opened doors to opportunities abroad, including studying in Taiwan and teaching English in Asia. This global perspective led him to pursue a law degree, and later, an LLM in International Commercial Law.

Throughout the interview, listeners hear about the importance of having a clear plan and passion for your studies. Dr. George White emphasizes that success in graduate school isn't about being the smartest person in the room — it's about hard work, dedication, and being genuinely excited about what you're learning. He also opens up about his experiences consulting and teaching in China, which inspired him to further pursue an MBA and a PhD in International Business.

The episode is filled with actionable advice for prospective graduate students: develop a five- or ten-year plan, engage with your professors, and choose a program that aligns with your interests and career goals. Time management and perseverance are repeatedly highlighted as essential ingredients for success.

If you're seeking inspiration from someone who's charted a truly international, interdisciplinary career — leveraging degrees in history, law, and business — this episode is sure to motivate you. Tune in to "Victors in Grad School" and learn how passion, planning, and relentless hard work can help you thrive on the path to academic and professional achievement.

Ready to be inspired? Listen now and prepare to embark on your own journey as a victor in grad school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we have an opportunity. We have an opportunity to work together to help you define success in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school, that is in graduate school, has a unique journey that you will follow for yourself as you move forward and through that experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: And though it may be unique, there are commonalities that most every person goes through as they go through that graduate school journey that you can start planning for right now. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you to find ways to be able to be successful in this journey and find tips, tactics, et cetera, things that can help you to find success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to have different people, new people on, to share their own experience. And today we have another great guest. Dr. George White is with us. And George is a professor at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: He's a professor of Strategic Management and the director of the Doctorate in Business Administration Program here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And he's at a unique path through his own education that has led him to where he is today. So we're going to be talking to him about his own journey. George, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. George White [00:01:40]: Hi, Chris. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: Well, I really am excited to have you here today, and I know that your journey has been one that is unique, and you have had many curves along the path. So I want to take you back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Alabama and you got a Bachelor of Arts degree in history. And at some point, either in your undergraduate work or after, when you started working and getting some experience, you made a decision to go back to graduate school and to get a law degree. And I'm really interested, first and foremost, for us to talk about this. And then I know you went beyond that, but bring me back to the point in which you determined for yourself that graduate school was the next step. What was going through your head?

Dr. George White [00:02:25]: Yeah, so, oh, boy, it's very long journey for me. What happened was I'm essentially the very first kid in my immediate family to go to college. So I started off in community College at a very nice community college in Hanceville, Alabama, near Coleman, Alabama, called Hanceville Community College. And so I went there part time. I worked full time like many of the students here at um, Flint do anyhow, and actually work night shift and at a technology company producing chipboards. And then that company was paying for my education, so I would go to school during the day. So I'd get up at like 6 in the morning, study, go to school, maybe study some more, hop in the car, go work and repeat that. And I wasn't sleeping a whole lot during that time.

Dr. George White [00:03:14]: So that sort of was my gateway into college. And just going to community college was an eye opener for me. But what happened was at a certain point I decided I wanted to be a full time student. After going through the grind of working and trying to do that and go to school part time, my family told me I could go full time to school if I wanted to do that. So I'll never forget when I applied to be accepted in the University of Alabama. When I got that acceptance letter, it was a big deal because I grew up in a very rural part of Alabama and actually was raised on a chicken farm in East Texas. So basically a farming family wasn't exposed that much to higher education. And here I am going off to the University of Alabama.

Dr. George White [00:03:55]: My first year at Alabama, I just took classes in general. I was a history major. But what happened my senior year, I took a few courses in Asian history. I'll never forget. I took a course by a professor, his name was Lee Butler, he's actually a graduate from University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, who was a professor in the history department there. And it was on Japanese culture and coming from basically the backwoods of Alabama, you know, being a Southern redneck that really taking that course, we read books on architecture in Japan. We learned about aikabuno, you know, flower arranging, sumo wrestling. That class really was, was my first point of entry into learning about the rest of the world.

Dr. George White [00:04:36]: And then I took another course from a professor who became my mentor, named Dr. Ronald Roble, on Korean history. And I knew nothing about Korea until I took that course. And these were during my senior year at Alabama. So what happened was I became very fascinated by Asia and just the rest of the world in general. And Dr. Robol, who I got to know quite well. I worked very hard, tried to do well in his course.

Dr. George White [00:05:01]: He basically encouraged me to stay at Alabama and become a graduate student there. He was the director of their Asian studies program. And so I stayed there, worked under him became as a teaching assistant in the classes he was teaching and took classes in Asian studies and started studying Chinese language. Then what happened was I ended up receiving a scholarship to go study Chinese at Fengji University, which is in Taichung, Taiwan. And I did that for about a year. And studying abroad was very interesting to me. I learned quite a bit. But what I really enjoyed was going out.

Dr. George White [00:05:34]: And there's lots of opportunities in Taiwan that teach English as a second language. You can actually make a lot of money doing that. So I started doing quite a bit of that. I taught at a night school in Taichung, and then I taught at a private kindergarten in the morning and was making a lot of money. I had, like, a little penthouse I was renting in downtown Taichung. And it was a really good life. And what happened was I was there on the scholarship, but one of my employers wanted me to essentially convert my visa status from a student to, like, a working visa. So to make a very long story short, I ended up traveling abroad to the Philippines.

Dr. George White [00:06:10]: Bumped into my wife the first day I was in the Philippines. Left the Philippines, went back to Taiwan, realized it's going to be very difficult to get her to Taiwan because of the immigration policy. So I basically moved to the Philippines. I'd saved up a lot of money. I had this little desk in my room of the apartment I was renting. I used to shove all of my cash in that drawer. I didn't even have a bank account there. And I remember just taking all that money I'd made and I moved to the Philippines.

Dr. George White [00:06:38]: And basically I became a beach bum in the Philippines for a little while. So got married to my wife. That's what triggered, you know, when I was in the Philippines, I'm like, I have to do something with my life, you know, I mean, who's going to hire somebody with a bachelor's degree in Asian history? And I wanted to continue on. I was very interested in learning. I enjoyed the university environment, and I wanted to continue with my education. So I wasn't good at math at that point. I haven't even thought about business. So I did what a lot of individuals do that are more qualitatively experienced and have skill sets in that area.

Dr. George White [00:07:11]: I applied to law school, and my LSAT score for law school wasn't really that great. So there's a school here in Michigan called Cooley Law School in Lansing, which sort of has a very different admissions policy than most other law schools. They usually. They bring in a lot of students, but then they weed them out. You know, it's a very rigorous law school to go through. And what happened was they. They brought. I got accepted to Coley Law School.

Dr. George White [00:07:37]: And that was my. My only opportunity at that point in time. Listed at some other law schools like Syracuse and other universities, because I had interesting background. But I ended up going to Cooley and I studied as a law student there and I concentrated in international law because that was at that point in time, I knew I wanted to do something international in nature. Then what happened was, in law school, I was on the journal, the editorial board for the Cooley Law Journal, which is sort of a prestigious thing in law school. And you get to learn how to edit, and it's research oriented. There was a summer course called Scholarly Writing that I took as an elective course. And I took that course and I wrote a paper and the paper was on trade in Southeast Asia.

Dr. George White [00:08:24]: And I took the paper after I was finished with the class. I did very well in there because it was very interesting to me. I loved to do research and writing. So I was very intrinsically motivated. And when I went through that class, I knew it was something I really enjoyed. And what happened was I took that paper that I wrote for that class and I got it published in an international law journal. And I knew at that time, this is something I can do, and it's something I love to do. And so then one law degree wasn't enough.

Dr. George White [00:08:51]: So I went and actually I went to Emory Law School and worked on an LLM, an advanced law degree in International Commercial Law. And then what happened was, when I was at Emory, this is right around the time when China was joining the WTO, back around 2000, 2001, I did not feel like I'd finished what I had started out to do in Taiwan. So I wanted to get back to Asia and sort of finish what I started there. So I started looking around for jobs to teach law in China. And one thing led to another and a major university hired me to go over to China and spend a year there. I ended up spending two years there, but they hired me to go there and to teach international law as a visiting professor. And that's how it all started. Going back to my bachelor's degree, I found something very fascinating and I wanted to continue with that.

Dr. George White [00:09:41]: I really enjoyed learning. I enjoyed the university environment, and I was fascinated by Asia and just international stuff, and I wanted to keep continuing down that path. And then when I got the law school and I took this course on scholarly writing where I could Bring my passion into that. That's what really triggered everything for me. And I knew that's what I wanted to do moving forward with my career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:04]: Now a law degree is a terminal degree. You went on and got an LLM, but then a few years later you decided to keep going and getting both an MBA as well as then going and getting a PhD, another terminal degree.

Dr. George White [00:10:19]: I got my MBA at the same time as I was working on my PhD, which is sort of rare.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:24]: So talk to me about that and what made you decide that you wanted to continue your education to get those additional degrees beyond the terminal degrees you already had? Yeah.

Dr. George White [00:10:34]: Okay. So very practical. I was in China at the time, you know, I, I accepted that gig to go and teach at Habenomy University again. It was right around the time when China was opening up to the rest of the world. They were much more free market oriented than they currently are. I mean, they were following the Deng Xiaoping framework of opening up and trying to develop relationship with the Western world. So there were lots of opportunities at the time for foreigners with backgrounds like myself and interests like myself to consult and do things. So what happened was I was not in Beijing or Shanghai.

Dr. George White [00:11:10]: I was in a secondary city, a little town of only 8 million people called Shijiazhuang, which is just south of Beijing. And there were lots of opportunities because of my unique background and skillset. So I started consulting and I was consulting with law firms as a foreign expert. And then I ended up being approached by development zones to consult with them and help act as a liaison between the Chinese government and foreign companies that were coming in and investing in China. And I started basically backed into doing a lot of business consulting. And at that time I did not have any formal business background or education whatsoever. I was learning by doing, essentially. So I had a friend that was a former professor of mine at Thomas Cooley at Cooley Law School.

Dr. George White [00:11:54]: At that time he had moved to University of Miami, but we stayed in touch. And so about once a month he would contact me and we would talk because he was doing a lot of research on China and then I was doing research on China. So he would call me up about once a month and we would chat. And I told him, you know what, I'm doing all this consulting now in China and I don't have this formal education, so I feel like I need to go and get an MBA or something. And at that time I had already started publishing a good bit. And he goes, george, George, you ought to think about going and obtaining a Ph.D. you know, joining a Ph.D. program in international business.

Dr. George White [00:12:28]: International business, really? He goes, yes, all your research is related to international business, because I've been publishing quite a bit on international trade, foreign direct investment, and different issues related to companies operating in Asia. So I'll never forget I studied for the GMAT, which is the entrance examination for MBAs and most business graduate degrees. I studied in a library in northern China during the winter, like the winter we have right here in Michigan where there is no heat. I'll never forget that. And I actually took the GMAT in Beijing, China. And then I applied to some PhD programs and there was this new doctoral program that had just started up in international business at University of Texas at El Paso. And they accepted me. I'll never forget, forget when I received the letter and they actually called me when I was in China.

Dr. George White [00:13:17]: When that happened, it changed my life. And so I ended up going off to spent two years in China. And after that I transitioned into the PhD program at UT El Paso, where I also earned my MBA as a general MBA in management. It was an extension of what I was already doing. I mean, I had started doing a lot of business consulting in mainland China, and I had no formal background or education. And so I was interested in learning and getting some formal education in business administration. And I ended up going and working on my PhD and then also my MBA. And to this very day, 20 years later, I'm still using leveraging my legal background and my interest in Asia in my research and what I teach and do here at Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:01]: Now, with every degree, when you transition into those degrees, there is a transition because the way in which you're educated at the bachelor's level is different than at the master's level, is different than in law school, is different than in a PhD. Every type of school is a little bit different. Every type of academic area is going to be a little bit different. So talk to me about some of the things that you learned as you made those transitions through the different degrees that you went into and what you had to do to be able to first transition into graduate school. And what did you have to do to continue throughout the entire graduate school experience to maintain that success?

Dr. George White [00:14:42]: Yeah, I mean, and this is something I talk to. I'm the director of our doctoral program here at the School of Management at Michigan Flint. So I'm always talking to students about this on a regular basis. You know, I think you need to have a plan. You know, I think it's the first thing you need to really have a Plan. I think the most successful students. What made me successful, I had a passion for what I wanted to do. I mean, I knew what I wanted to do and I was determined to do it no matter what.

Dr. George White [00:15:07]: Okay, second thing, you need to have a plan. You need to have like a 5 and 10 year plan. Why am I doing this? How is this going to get me from point A to point B? And then what am I going to do? And you got to be very proactive and dedicated. I mean, for example, in all of my courses, I remember my doctoral program, my doctoral program in the law school as well, pretty much all my courses. And I was never the smartest student in any of those classes. And I'm definitely not the smartest faculty member here at the School of management neither. But one thing I can say, I worked very hard. On Fridays, I would be up studying, working on Saturdays.

Dr. George White [00:15:41]: Whatever I had to do to be successful, I would make that happen. So I was very proactive. All the faculty knew me very well in all the programs. Starting my bachelor's all the way through, I was very proactive, interacting with the faculty members, making sure I'm doing the right thing in the classes. How can I improve what I'm doing? I was very interested in learning and I had a passion for what I was working on and a plan of why am I doing what I'm doing? Okay, I think that's very important. Also, just generally, you need to be excited about what you're working on. You know, when you select a graduate degree, I mean, I understand the practicality of choosing something that's going to help you to get from point A to point B, whether it's getting a promotion or, or moving in a new area, whatever that is. But you got to have some passion for what you're doing.

Dr. George White [00:16:25]: I mean, at the end of the day, it's a grind. Graduate school is not easy. You got to be dedicated. It takes a lot of time and effort. You're paying a lot of money for whatever degree it is, and you got to be able to wake up in the morning and be motivated or it's just going to be much more difficult for you to be successful. So that's really what made me like, I did not enjoy law school. I did not have any fun in law school. Right.

Dr. George White [00:16:48]: That's why I'm not a law professor. But, but I did enjoy some of the subjects that the law school had to offer, and I gravitated towards those and that's what helped me get through it. For example, like the other Graduate degrees were very different. I really had more passion for them. But at the end of the day, you got to have a passion for what you're doing. I mean, life is too short to be miserable and you got to have a plan. I think just throwing yourself into a degree program with not having a clear vision of what you plan to do, I don't think is really the right approach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:17]: I know you are a faculty member, you are a administrator. You've worked in higher education now for a number of years here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I guess as you think back to the education that you received in all the different facets of the education, talk to me about how those different degrees and the different experiences that you've had have helped you to do the work that you're doing on a daily basis.

Dr. George White [00:17:40]: That's a complex question. First of all, I feel very blessed. Position I'm in is I've worked well. My wife has to remind me that I work very hard to get where I'm at. There's this old saying, you need to run scared to be successful. And I've been running scared, meaning I've been working very hard, never thinking I'm doing enough. How can I constantly improve what I'm doing? I've been doing that for a very long time and I'm still doing it to today, even though I'm a full professor and directing a doctoral program, etc. Etc.

Dr. George White [00:18:08]: But for me, I get this question a lot from various individuals, students in our program. Individuals are out in industry. You know, you have a law degree and you have a bachelor's in history. You know how in the world you become a professor of business. For me, it all sort of fits together. For example, my research today is on how companies strategize, you know, develop in and execute strategy in Asia. And I look at that from a legal perspective, I've sort of become like an expert in the international business and strategic management community on how the legal environment has an influence on foreign companies, multinationals operating in Asia. So I have really worked hard to try to leverage my interest and background in Asia.

Dr. George White [00:18:53]: I go over the Asia quite a bit. You know, I mean, I. I'm a visiting professor in the Philippines and also in. In Thailand right now. And I go over there quite a bit and give seminars and talks and do research there. But so I have that from my. All the way back from my bachelor's days 30 years ago. And then my legal degree, although I'm not a lawyer right now, I use that in My research, all my research focuses on how the legal environment influences multinational strategies in Asia.

Dr. George White [00:19:20]: And so I try to bring all of that education together in bring these insights into my class, classes that I teach. I consult on the side a little bit in Asia, doing that type of stuff. And then my research is all focused on that. But at the end of the day, I think that for anybody that has sort of a unique background, you should try and leverage that, especially if you're interested in that type of work and because that's what's going to make you unique and provide possible opportunities moving forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:50]: Now I know you talk to a lot of graduate students and you work with students that are coming into your Doctorate of Business Administration program, but you have your own experiences as well. And I guess as you look back at your own experiences, not only personally, but also experiences in working with other graduate students and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in business, law or some other field. What are some tips that you might want to offer other students considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. George White [00:20:22]: I grew up in a very poor family. I remember my mom, she worked as a waitress at Pizza Hut. This is back when Pizza Hut was actually really good, when people would go and eat in the Pizza Hut and she used to wait tables and she had this big jar in her room that she would dump her change in from her tips. I'll never forget that we had to live with my grandparents, you know, and she put herself through nursing school. And then when I was in high school, she was working like two or three jobs. I never saw my mom because she was trying to provide for us. And then most of the rest of my family were entrepreneurial, that self made had their own companies. And so I learned from that that hard work is essential to success.

Dr. George White [00:20:59]: And so again, going back to what I mention mentioned earlier, I've always worked very hard and because if you work hard, things will come to you. It might not be the easiest path, but there's no substitute for hard work. And hard work will provide you with opportunities at the end of the day. So I just wanted to go back to that tips again. I think you have to have a passion for what you're when you go to graduate school. And I do see this a lot. I see a lot of students coming in. I teach in our MBA program and I see a lot of students coming in our MBA program that are just in the MBA to get the mba.

Dr. George White [00:21:33]: Okay, now of course that's up to them. That, that's what they want to do. But I've noticed the students that have a passion for learning and are interested in like the concepts, ideas, theories we're talking about in our classes that go beyond just getting the degree, they tend to enjoy the process and the journey that they're on a lot more than those that don't. So, I mean, I think it's important for you to find a program that you're interested in. You're going to be excited about taking the class classes in and so forth. Also, again, there's not a replacement for hard work. And this goes back to my discussing all this earlier. I've never been the smartest in any of my classes, but I'm a grinder, you know, I've had to grind things out.

Dr. George White [00:22:14]: But at the end of the day, you will get to where you want to be if you put in the effort and you work hard and do your very best in your classes and in the program. So I think that's very important. Also, I think most students these days, or most students are not full time, but a lot of them are working jobs and so forth. You got to be able to manage and schedule things properly. You know, I think time management these days has become more important than ever before. And so being able to develop process you have for yourself, you know, like a schedule for yourself when you do get into the program will definitely help because it will keep you sort of segmented to where you can balance out how you get through the program week to week. So that would sort of be my advice. But I mean, the big thing is you got to really be excited about what you're planning to go into.

Dr. George White [00:23:02]: And that will. That will, I think, make it to where you will get through the program a lot easier and you'll learn a lot more at the end of the day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:09]: Well, George, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I know there's a lot more to it, but you shared some amazing tips and thoughts on kind of the journey that you took, but also things that people can do. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. George White [00:23:22]: Thank you, Chris. I appreciate the opportunity and thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

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Are you thinking about graduate school, wondering how others have navigated the challenges and triumphs of advanced education? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" is a must-listen for anyone considering the journey. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melodee Hills, a driven lifelong learner who shares her honest, inspiring path from undergraduate degrees through an MBA and now towards a Doctorate of Business Administration (DBA) at the University of Michigan-Flint.

From the outset, Melodee Hills opens up about what first inspired her to continue beyond her bachelor's degree. She shares how she found a passion for learning while balancing a full-time job and recognized the importance of momentum—"school isn't getting any cheaper, and I'm not getting any younger," she notes. Her story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the best time to push ahead is when you're already in motion.

The conversation dives deep into the "why" behind going to graduate school—a recurring theme in the episode. Melodee Hills encourages listeners to identify their core reason for considering graduate studies, emphasizing that a clear sense of purpose will carry you through the tough times. "Once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window," she shares, recounting how filtering out "noise" from naysayers and self-doubt allowed her to stay committed, even when balancing demanding work periods and academic deadlines.

Another key takeaway from the episode is the importance of adaptability and self-reflection. Melodee Hills offers practical strategies for managing the ever-shifting landscape of graduate school, highlighting the need for boundaries, constant adjustment, and supportive communication with loved ones and mentors. She also touches on battling imposter syndrome—a challenge many graduate students face—and how building relationships with both peers and professors helped her find her footing in a new academic environment.

This episode isn't just about hardship; it's about growth and transformation. Melodee Hills shares how her approach to problem-solving has evolved—from impulsive reactions to thoughtful research and big-picture thinking.

Whether you're contemplating graduate studies or are already on the path, the wisdom and encouragement you'll hear in this episode will help you clarify your goals, anticipate challenges, and find actionable advice for success. Don't miss the full conversation—listen to the latest "Victors in Grad School" episode and get inspired to find your own path forward!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, as always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And it is a journey because every individual that is thinking about going to graduate school, maybe you're in graduate school, maybe you're already through partially and seen that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And at each point in that journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: That's why this podcast exists. This podcast exists to help you to find some tips, some strategies, some. Some hints from people that have gone forth before you, that might be in graduate school now, that may have gone to graduate school in the past and can share some of what they learned along the way with you. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you. And today we've got another great guest. Melody Hills is with us. And Melody is a member of the. And Melody is a DBA student at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:20]: And she has already gone through a graduate degree once. Now she's doing it again for a different degree. And we're going to talk about that journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree, going to a master's, now going for a doctorate degree and talking to you about some of the things that she's learned along the way. Melody, thanks so much for being here today.

Melodee Hills [00:01:40]: I am happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here and to talk about your journey and what I really want to do. First and foremost, that I want to take you back in time. So I know you did your bachelor's degree at Ashford University, and at some point, at some point during that time when you were at Ashford or maybe sometime after that, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue that education and go from getting that Bachelor of Arts in Organizational Management and continuing that to get a Master of Science in Business Administration. So talk to me about that and bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that graduate school was the thing to do at that point in your life?

Melodee Hills [00:02:21]: So back when I did my bachelor's degree. I was really trying to finish because I had been in school for over a decade at that point, and I needed to get to that finish line to finish my bachelor's. But then while I was doing my undergrad, I said, I actually enjoy this. And at the time I was working, I was a staff accountant, and school isn't getting any cheaper and I'm not getting any younger. So I. And I was actually enjoying the process. I love learning. So while I was in that mode of going to school and working full time, I said, I'm just gonna keep going before so I don't lose this momentum.

Melodee Hills [00:02:54]: So after I finished my bachelor's degree, it took me, I think it was that summer. It was just a few months later, it was less than a year later that I signed up and continued on with my master's degree just to really keep it going.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: So I know that back a few years back, you made another decision. You made a decision that you are going to continue that education and can go back into the learning mode to be able to get that terminal doctorate degree in business, the doctorate of Business Administration, or the DBA degree. And not everybody wants to do that. Not everybody wants to jump back into education after they have a master's degree. I'm sure that you could have stayed with the master's degree and been plenty fine with your work and continued on. So bring me back to that point and what made you decide to shake it up and go back to graduate school to work on that doctorate degree for yourself?

Melodee Hills [00:03:43]: Sure. Having a doctorate degree has always just been a goal. It's always been a personal goal. And honestly, when I finished my master's degree, I said, I am never doing this again. I am never going back to school. Academically, I'm done. But then, you know, things change. Life changes and priorities shift.

Melodee Hills [00:03:58]: And I got to a point in my career where I needed to continue my own growth. I was stalled in my career, and I wanted to pivot into teaching. I wanted to pivot into getting higher into leadership, and the stars aligned, and everything just happened to line up. And I started doing my research, and I found this program, and it worked. You know, I talked to my husband about it. I talked to those that I love and are close to me, and they said, yes, this is perfect for you. You're this lifelong learner. Do it.

Melodee Hills [00:04:25]: So through my soul searching and a lot of phone calls and just thinking about it, I said, yes, this is the right thing to do for me and my life. Right now to advance myself personally advance myself career wise. It just aligned.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: So you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint for that inaugural cohort of the program when it first started. And there are many DBA programs across the nation and you're actually located on the other side of the country from where this program is located. So talk to me about that journey for yourself and that search process for yourself and what made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Melodee Hills [00:05:03]: Yes, I did research a bunch, a bunch of schools, all reputable, great reputations, legacy. So Michigan, of course, its reputation, its legacy. It has a strong alumni association. It's been around forever, it's not going anywhere. And full transparency. The other ones were required an in person residency either two, three, four times a year, which was fine, you know, to fly to wherever that campus may be. But because the Michigan program was 100% online, that really worked for me as much as I travel personally as for working full time and just the other things I do, the 100% online was really what made me say yes, this is, this is the, this will be the best decision for me right now and in my current lifestyle.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:47]: Now, when you transition into graduate degrees, there is definitely transitions. The way in which you're educated is different, the way in which the expectations that faculty have of you are different. And it's different at every level, in every type of degree. So talk to me about those transitions that you went through and what you had to do not only at the beginning when you were transitioning in to your different degrees at the different levels, but what did you have to do to be able to maintain the success that you found as you were transitioning in, to transition through that program and to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate degree.

Melodee Hills [00:06:23]: It's constant reflection to see what works. So what works for me may not work for the next person or I may talk to one of my classmates or someone and what works for them won't work for me. And what worked for me last month may not work for me this month, you know, so it's just a constant looking and seeing where I am now. Someone just said to me recently, be where your feet are. And that to me just really resonated to just be where my feet are and okay, this is. I need to focus more. I have a paper, I have a test, I have an exam. Whatever it may be, I need to focus more this week than I did last week and just always be willing and flexible and fluid to be able to make the Adjustments needed and not be so stuck on an expected outcome because anything can happen.

Melodee Hills [00:07:04]: So really just being open and fluid and being willing to adapt now, also.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:09]: When you go into a graduate degree, and I'm kind of lumping both of your degrees together, but I know that it's different at the master's and at the doctor. And as you move into a graduate degree, there are mindset shifts that you have to go through personally that help you to be able to find success. And you mentioned kind of the reflection, but I'm sure that there's some other mindset shifts that you had to go through to be able to get yourself in a place to get yourself in a place that would allow for you to be successful in the graduate program in general. So what mindset shifts did you feel like you had to go through at the master's level, at the doctorate level now that helped you succeed?

Melodee Hills [00:07:46]: Mind shift. So I'll speak at the doctorate level. I, I didn't know that imposter syndrome existed until I got into this doctorate program. So that whole thing of, should I be here? Am I worthy to be here? You know, looking at certain people that have. Are in the program and just comparing myself to them, listening to other people tell me, you don't need that. Why are you doing this? And I really had to take a step back and eliminate that noise, because that's all it was. It's just noise in my head and find my own why. What's my why of what I'm doing this.

Melodee Hills [00:08:21]: And once I focused on my why, all of that other stuff just flew out the window. And it was a shift of this is why I'm doing this. This is what's important to me and why I'm. I'm going to finish. And so I would just say filtering out and silencing the noise and the naysayers and all of, all of that other stuff going on to understand why I was doing this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: For me, yeah, that's important because you do have to always have in your mind's eye the end result, the goal at the end of the tunnel. I always talk about the light at the end of the tunnel because a lot of times when you're going through a graduate program, you do have to look for that light because sometimes it gets challenging. There will be challenges that you have to overcome when you're going through degrees. Talk to me about challenges for yourself. And maybe there's. Maybe there was one, maybe there was two. Are there any examples that you could share with me of challenges that you had to overcome personally. And what did you have to do to do that?

Melodee Hills [00:09:15]: Working in accounting? I was a corporate accounting manager and we have month end close, quarter end close, year end close. And they don't care that I have a paper due for this course. They don't care that I have, you know, what I have going on. So trying to balance the time commitment that I needed for work and making sure I did a good job at work, as well as the time commitment that I needed for this program in particular. Because it's a lot, you know, there's a lot of reading, it's a lot of writing, it's a lot of research. So it did require a lot of time. So I would say that would be that just to understand, understand that part of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]: You know, one other thing that comes to mind, and I talk to students about this all the time, is as you enter different degrees and you insert yourself into that education, sometimes that imposter syndrome creeps in and self doubt in regard to how you feel as a student and whether you feel that you're good enough or you should be there, that you can do what you're trying to do. Talk to me about imposter syndrome and how that impacted you and what you had to do to overcome that.

Melodee Hills [00:10:17]: For this program in particular, since we were the inaugural program, I didn't have anyone to talk to for an example or to say, hey, what is this? Like, I jumped into this. I finished my master's degree. Gosh, it seems like a lifetime ago. So I'm jumping back into academics, I'm jumping into a doctorate program. I'm learning what my cohorts do for a living. And I'm like, my goodness, how did I even make the cut? You know, so it was like all of those types of things. And then once I got in, I just immersed myself. I became an ambassador for the program, I became a mentor for the program.

Melodee Hills [00:10:49]: I started just learning my cohorts and just talking to them. I learned that I know things that they didn't, you know, so we just kind of worked with each other on each other's strengths to help each other out. So it just. In the beginning, it was so scary because I just didn't know what to expect. But then as I kind of got my footing, it took about a semester, I mean, to be honest, to really get my footing and understand what I was doing and how I was doing it and understand the professors and how everything worked. But that went away eventually. But yes, it was definitely a thing of why, how why am I here? How am I here? But I got my footing. It's okay now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:24]: Now, you've already mentioned the fact that in going into graduate school, especially when you're working and you have family and friends and, and you're wearing lots of different hats, there is this balance that you have to find. So tell me about how you found balance in balancing school, work, family and other commitments that you might have had thus far during graduate school.

Melodee Hills [00:11:44]: I just had to make sure I set the time and boundaries. Boundaries are so important with this. Like I had to set boundaries with my home. My husband and I agreed we were going to move my office space into the spare bedroom so that I could shut the door and so that I could have that time to really just focus. And that's just so important. So I would really just say communication. I have this paper due and I only have X amount of time before my next seminar to go over the proposal. So huge boundaries and communication and then execution.

Melodee Hills [00:12:17]: Because it's nothing if you say, okay, this is what I'm going to do, and then you don't do it. So, you know, it's discipline. It's so much involved, especially working 100% remote and being home and you're on your own time and making sure you hit your own deadlines.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:29]: Now, you also mentioned the fact that when you went into this program, there was no one else ahead of you. So you didn't always have that support network and those people to draw from. And it is so important to build relationships, build relationships with others in the program, but also faculty and peers. So talk to me about how you built those relations, those relationships, even though there wasn't a class ahead of you and how did you build those relationships with faculty or other students and how that was impactful for you as a student.

Melodee Hills [00:12:59]: So our cohort, again, we were all kind of figuring this out together. So we would talk to each other. We have a group text or WhatsApp group that we communicate through. But I. Another thing that resonated with me at my job was trust but verify. So as the communication will be going on in that group, that's great. But I just got to the point where I said, I'm going to actually talk to the professors about this. I want to make sure that I am clear on this expectation from the person who actually is giving the assignment or given the instruction.

Melodee Hills [00:13:32]: So I would set up those one on one calls, I would reach out, I would email. Is this right? Is this what the expectation is? Am I doing this the right way. And I just started building that relationship and that openness and you know, certain professors I got closer to than others where I felt more comfortable to reach out to. Dr. White is amazing, Dr. Kelly is amazing, Dr. Asta is amazing. So there's this certain people that I started reaching out to more than others.

Melodee Hills [00:13:55]: But once I got comfortable with that, because again, coming from corporate and then jumping into academic, these folks that have all these papers written and all these letters behind their name, you know, it was a little intimidating at first, but everyone was so open and so wanting to help and so accommodating and so responsive that it just became easy. And I just became really comfortable with not only bouncing things off my cohorts, but also just checking in with the professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: Now you've gone through an mba, you're almost through your dba. As you think about graduate school and what you've learned along the way, how it's challenged you and pushed you in different directions, how would you say that graduate school has changed the way that you think, work or approach problems?

Melodee Hills [00:14:33]: I went from being very impulsive to saying, wait a minute, let me think about that. And actually looking for things and finding information on my own and just being a more rounded thinker, broad just looking at things big picture. They say that 10,000 foot view, which I hate incorporate, but you know, I mean, but that's really the thing, you know, instead of just seeing things in this small lens, it makes me take a step back and say, wait, there's more to this. And what is that? I'm always looking stuff up now, you know, if I see something like what does this mean? Oh no, what is that? Oh, you know, so. So yeah, that's definitely been the change from being, I don't want to call it small minded. I'll just say again that small lens to big picture and trying to get the full perspective and the full picture of things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:20]: As you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it's an mba, a DBA or something completely different. And as you think back to your own graduate school education, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Melodee Hills [00:15:35]: Like I said earlier, find your why. Why do you want to do this? And is this something that you can finish? Because one, it's a huge financial comm to start something and bail or quit or whatever may happen a year or a year and a half because you still have this bill, right? So one, figure out your why and make sure that it's something you can see through to the end. Talk to those that you love and trust and those that will give you honestly, both sides of it. Okay. Well, for Melody, you love to do xyz. Is this something that you can continue during ABC and just think about those things, positive and negative? It can't always be good. There's gonna be some challenges. And then again, just.

Melodee Hills [00:16:14]: It's an investment. It is for time and money. Just talk to your job. If you're working full time, if you're not, if you're already a student, just understand the full picture of it. To set yourself up for success, to make sure that this is something that you can take and find your support group so that you can make it to that finish line.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: Well, Melody, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. I know it's not over. You still got a little bit of time left before you walk across that stage and get hooded for your doctorate degree. And I'm really excited to be able to see you as you finish this journey for yourself and see where you go from there. But I really appreciate you sharing your story today and I wish you all the best.

Melodee Hills [00:16:56]: Thank you, Dr. Lewis.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: The university of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that are that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint.edu.

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Graduate school is often described as a journey—one full of unique challenges, opportunities, and moments of growth. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Abigail Weycker, a double master's degree student at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack what it takes to thrive as a grad student.

Unlocking Opportunities: Dual Degrees and Joint Programs

One of the main themes Abigail discusses is the value of joint degree programs, such as the university's Four-Plus-One track. Many don't realize these programs exist until someone points them out, as was Abigail's experience. By strategically double-counting certain courses, she's able to fast-track her journey, save both time and money, and ultimately earn an MBA alongside an MS in Leadership and Organizational Dynamics (MSLOD).

Dr. Lewis emphasizes the importance of investigating whether your institution offers such programs, as they can offer incredible opportunities for growth and advancement.

Transition and Mindset: Embracing the Graduate Challenge

Transitioning from undergraduate coursework to graduate-level expectations requires more than just academic skill—it's about shifting your mindset. Abigail shares how meticulous planning and using a color-coded planner has been crucial for her success, along with meeting consistently with academic advisors. Their guidance ensures she's on track, understands course sequencing, and discovers new opportunities—like adding her second master's—she might otherwise have missed.

Making the leap from "just another day of school" to treating graduate work as an investment in her future, Abigail highlights how "taking it day by day, or even minute by minute" can help manage stress and keep you moving forward.

Building Relationships and Community

Another powerful theme from this episode is the importance of building relationships—both with faculty and fellow students. Abigail explains that being proactive about connecting with professors and staff transformed her experience. It not only made learning easier but also enriched her network, opening doors she never expected.

Advice for Future Grad Students

"Dip your toe in and try," Abigail encourages future grad students. Go at your own pace, build connections, and remember: your journey is unique. The support you cultivate, both academically and personally, can make all the difference.

For anyone considering graduate school—or currently navigating it—this episode is packed with practical wisdom, honest reflections, and encouragement. Listen to the full conversation to get inspired and equipped for your own grad school journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Abigail Weycker [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that. That you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You are looking at graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: Maybe you are. You've already applied to graduate school. Maybe you're already in graduate school. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do today, right now that will help you to be able to find success in that journey. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to learn from other people, other people that are currently going through the graduate school, that have gone through graduate school. Maybe they've been out of graduate school for some time, but they can still provide you with some of those building blocks, some of those things that they learned along the way that can help you as well. Today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:08]: Abigail Weycker is with us. And Abigail is a student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She is actually in two different master's degrees at the same time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]: And she started the first master's degree while she was an undergraduate student. So we're going to be talking to her about the journey that she has been on toward where she's going, and I'm really excited to be able to introduce her to you today. Abigail, thanks so much for being here.

Abigail Weycker [00:01:33]: Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: It is my pleasure. And I guess one of the things that I want to do first and foremost is I want to go back in time. I know that you were a undergraduate student at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in time, you had something in your head that said to you, I want to go further. I want to go beyond the bachelor's degree, and I want to start my graduate degree while I'm an undergraduate student. So bring me back to that point and what was going through your head?

Abigail Weycker [00:02:02]: Yeah, so I honestly didn't know about the joint four plus one program until I want to say, the end of my sophomore year, beginning of my junior year. And I believe it was one of our marketing assistants at the time, Audrey Banks, she had just made a flyer for it, like one of those big, gigantic flyers. You know what I'm talking about? And I was like, what is that? So I went and I talked to Tamika and Rachel, and I talked to them about what the four plus one program entails. And they told me about how you can essentially double count a few undergrad classes that are also master's level classes, and they would count towards both your undergraduate degree and your master's degree, so you can do them simultaneously. And I was like, okay, so essentially you can knock out a year worth of master's classes while also going to get your undergrad degree. So then that's why it's called four plus one. So then you only have one year of your solely, just your master's afterwards.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:01]: So full stop there, everyone. I'm going to talk a little bit about this because at the institution that you may be at, if you're an undergraduate student right now, one of the things to look at is, does your institution have a joint degree program? If they have a joint degree program in a program that you're interested in, it might be something to look into. Every university that has these type of programs set them up in different ways. And the way in which they are set up here at the University of Michigan Flint does allow for students to double count, meaning that you are taking graduate courses as an undergraduate student, and those credits transfer back down to complete bachelor's degree requirements, while at the same time working toward requirements for the master's degree as well. So that being said, you can, as Abigail just said, save some time, save some money potentially, and continue working toward your goal. Now, as I said, not every university has these, so it's not going to work with everybody. But it can't hurt to look into it further, especially if there are areas that you are interested in that have these type of programs that are available and you want to start early if you can identify what's there. Because if you can start taking them in your junior year, maybe or your senior year, you want to prepare yourself for that so that you are talking to academic advisors and preparing ahead of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:22]: Now, Abigail, you decided to do a joint degree program for the mba. Talk to me about that. Why the mba, and why did you decide that that was the right graduate program for you?

Abigail Weycker [00:04:34]: Yeah, so I started with the MBA because it just was the logical choice for me to go from Bachelor's to Master's of Business Administration. It just sounded right. And then again, I was talking with Tamika Shepherd. She's a graduate advisor at U of M Flint, and she had mentioned that going for my mslod because my focus for my master's in the MBA is HR and Marketing. And MSLOD is more hr, solely focused. So she mentioned that doing the MSLOD would only be four more classes. So it would only take me one extra semester because I'm taking three classes at a time, which you don't have to do. That's just how I'm doing it.

Abigail Weycker [00:05:15]: So I'm going full time. So she said it would only be four extra classes. So realistically that's only one extra semester for me. Technically I'm graduating twice. I'm graduating with my MBA in April of 26 and then my MSLOD in December of 26. So I was already going summer for one extra class for my MBA anyways. So I just added two MSLOD and then went forward in the fall.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:38]: And I'm going to break down these acronyms. Mslod, Master of Science in Leadership and Organizational Dynamics. Now, what Abigail was just talking about here at the University of Michigan, Flint, we call a dual degree. Many universities, dual degrees are possible. That basically just means that you are joining two different graduate degrees together. And usually if you are combining different degrees together, there's some type of an overlap between those degrees like Abigail just said. And they don't have to always be in the same academic area. So for example, you could be studying nursing and also get an MBA because you might want to do executive leadership in nursing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:19]: So there are ways in which which you can partner different degrees together. Every institution is different and the number of credits that you can double count will be different because of that. But it's again a way for you to be able to maximize the time that you are in graduate school and be able to really focus in on those areas that you truly have an interest in as you move forward. Now, Abigail, as you were transitioning into your first graduate degree, there are definite transitions. You're going from the way in which you're educated as an undergraduate student. You were still an undergraduate student while you're taking graduate courses. And there are different expectations, there's different expectations of graduate students. Faculty are going to treat you differently, expect different things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:06]: And you have to figure that out as you are going along. Talk to me about that transition for yourself because you have found success in this journey thus far. So as you started your graduate program, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Abigail Weycker [00:07:26]: Yeah, it kind of sounds cliche, but the biggest thing for me is keeping a planner. I'll mark down, I'll go through the syllabus or syllabi, the first day of the new semester, and write down all of the due dates in the planner in different colors. And then that way I can mark them off when the assignment is done. And then mentally that just makes me feel a lot better and makes me not stress out about missing something as much. So with grad school, you're going to get a lot more, I wouldn't say a lot more assignments, but you're gonna get a lot more in depth assignments. So there's gonna be more parts, there's gonna be more to it, there's gonna be longer essays. So it's gonna take more time than maybe just your typical practice of maybe doing it the day before that. It's not something that you can do in grad school anymore.

Abigail Weycker [00:08:10]: And that's okay. I mean it just, it's, it's all about car. That's why I use the planner, because it's all about carving out the time that I need to successful assignments on time and to the best of my ability. And then another big strength or recommendation that I have is consistently meeting with your advisor. I know everybody tells you that and everybody tells, oh, me with your advisor regularly, blah, blah, blah. And it kind of seems a pain in the butt, but it really, really, really does help because if you end up trying to advise yourself, you could screw yourself into another semester or preparing money for a class you didn't need. And you won't know that until you get evaluated by an advisor and they're like, actually, I don't know about that. And you're like, oh, okay.

Abigail Weycker [00:08:56]: And you won't know your options until you talk with an advisor either. Like, I wouldn't have known about the mslod, the joint MBA MSLOD program if Tameka hadn't mentioned it to me. So it's important to make sure that you establish that connection and keep that connection and meet with them at least once a semester.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:13]: Completely agree with you. Too often I've seen students do what you just said, which was self advisement. Especially if they're in a program that might not be cohort based and they are just looking at a catalog and saying, oh, that sounds kind of interesting. What if I took this course? Or if they see, oh, I have to take this course and maybe I'll take this or maybe I'll take this next term, not realizing that a course is only offered once every other semester. So sitting down with an advisor is definitely an important piece because you can then look at that schedule and Say, well, what makes the most sense? And you might learn something, something about a joint degree or a dual degree program. You might learn about a specific class that you really have to take this term, unless you want to have a delay.

Abigail Weycker [00:09:59]: That was a big one for me, was figuring out certain classes only are offered certain semesters. And you wouldn't know that unless you know the back end or you've experienced it in the past and know to look for it. It is embedded within our websites and places. But unless you have any idea about that being an option or an issue, potential issue, you don't know to look.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:21]: So talking about some of the transitions you went through as you move into graduate school, there are mindset shifts that you do have to go through as well. Talk to me about what mindset shifts did you have to make to succeed in graduate school?

Abigail Weycker [00:10:35]: I think for me really is it made me realize that I'm an adult now. These are big steps to go forward, and these are the step that are going to ensure a good future for me and a good future career for me. I think it's pretty typical now that a lot of companies want you to have your master's, especially in certain topics like education likes it and business likes it. I mean, it's not guaranteed and it's not required, obviously, but some companies like it. And so realizing that and putting myself in those shoes makes me realize that getting these two masters is going to make me more attractive to certain companies and I could be more likely to get my dream job quicker than someone else who might not have those experiences. And it's taken a lot for me to shift my thinking like that because I was like, oh, it's just another day of school. Oh, it's just another day of school. Okay, now I've got my bachelor's degree.

Abigail Weycker [00:11:29]: Okay, now I'm working on my master's. Okay, now the next step after that is a job. So you basically switch from a child or kid mindset to, okay, every day I go to school now. And then you're like, oh, I'm an adult. This is for something. This means something.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:46]: So as you think about the classes that you've taken, the other students that you've interacted with, you started graduate school young. There are many people in your program that probably stepped out and came back. Maybe they were working and going to school at the same time. So they're bringing different perspectives into the classroom. Talk to me about that experience for you as someone that that was young in your graduate courses and what that experience was like for you.

Abigail Weycker [00:12:12]: Yeah. So I considered doing that. And it's totally okay if you do. There's no judgment, no hate, no anything. But I just know myself and I know that for the last 13 years before I started college, all I've known was school. And then the four years of my undergrad, all I've known was school. And then I started working. So I was worried that if I stopped, had a family, had kids, got a full time job, that I would be like, oh, I'm done with school and try to come back and be like, I don't, I don't know how to get back in the groove anymore.

Abigail Weycker [00:12:46]: So that, that's just how I knew personally myself. And I was like, right now is the perfect time to do it. Especially with the credits double counting, I was at an advantage. So I'm like, I need to take this advantage now. I definitely do notice that I am the youngest in most of my classes, if not all of them. It's a little bit intimidating because I feel like I don't have the workforce and day to day experience that a lot of them have. But it's nice because they end up mentoring me in a way, so they end up giving me perspectives that I may have never thought about if I wasn't in this class right now. I may have them if I went and got a career right after my bachelor's and then came back, but I didn't and I went straight into master's.

Abigail Weycker [00:13:27]: So I'm straight in the learning portion, not in the real world experience portion. So having a class with those that went right into the real world world experience portion helps us to mesh together the ideas of both.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: The relationships that you build between as a undergraduate student, between faculty and student is a little bit different. The relationships that typically you're building in graduate school with faculty as well. So talk to me about how you built those relationships, how it might have been different between being an undergraduate student and a graduate student for yourself in the different degrees that you're working on.

Abigail Weycker [00:14:03]: But.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:04]: And what did you do to be able to build those strong relationships?

Abigail Weycker [00:14:08]: The same way it's important to reach out to your advisors and connect with them. It's important to reach out to your faculty and your staff and reach out to them and keep a connection up with them. Especially being at a smaller university, at being at U of M Flint, that was one of my big draws to come here is because I was looking at Ann Arbor, I was looking at Michigan State, and those are classes of upwards of maybe 100 200, 300 people, depending. So you're just going to be another head in the classroom, which that's fine if that. But for me, I. Even in high school and stuff like that, I love the connection between me and my teachers first, not even just a first name basis, but just knowing more about them and knowing their life and then finding a connection. And then we'd end up having a conversation about something I probably would have never known about them. So that's a big thing, is reaching out and finding those connections and feeling comfortable to talk to your professors.

Abigail Weycker [00:14:59]: Because if I don't understand something, I don't want to feel scared to go to them. I don't want to feel scared to try and learn a concept and say, hey, I might need another Zoom meeting about this. Hey, I might need another one on one session about this. I don't, I don't understand. So it's about being not afraid to approach them and build it further than just school. Because. Because if you build it further than just school, then you're building your network eventually for your future. And then the change from undergrad to grad.

Abigail Weycker [00:15:27]: Again, this is probably going to sound cliche, but I feel like in a graduate setting, you're looked at as more of an adult, you're looked at as more of an equal. And they treat you like that. Like there are professors on a graduate level that will end up, not that there's not any on the undergrad level, but they'll like, joke with you and tell them about the night before and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's great because then you build that, that connection deeper than just a classroom level. And then you feel more comfortable talking to them about certain things personally or professionally.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:57]: You also, as you've gone through undergrad into grad, you've worked on campus and you've been a part of student staff and have continued to do that in your gradu graduate degree as well. And I have told students as they go into graduate school, if they're not working full time, they should get involved on campus. They should find ways to be able to connect with people in a different way. Talk to me about your experience as a student employee on campus and what that's been like for you in balancing not only the work that you're doing in class, but also outside of class.

Abigail Weycker [00:16:31]: So I will say, before I even started college, I looked into, um, Flint and reached out and figured out what organizations on campus there were that I could join. And granted, I joined a lot and then didn't Follow through with them because it got overwhelming. But there were a handful that I stuck with, such as the Society of Human Resources Management. I joined U of M Flint's women's club soccer team. I'm involved with a couple other things, but working on campus. I started in 2022 in the summer at School of Management as an office assistant. And it's part time, but then it's. It's also creating those deeper relationships with the staff and faculty that I wouldn't have.

Abigail Weycker [00:17:07]: They know me on a first name basis. They know about my boyfriend, they know about my family. I know about their kids, I know about their hobbies. And you wouldn't know that if you didn't go and create those relationships. And it's nice because having an on campus job, they are almost required to. But they're nice enough to work around your school schedule. So if you're feeling overwhelmed or I need to study for this exam, hey, can I take this day off or take a couple hours to go study? And nine times out of 10, they're totally okay with it. And they totally understand because they were in your shoes one day too.

Abigail Weycker [00:17:45]: And they understand that to be a student worker, you have to be a student first.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:50]: Now, as you look back at your experiences going through graduate school thus far, and you think back to starting in graduate school even before you started in graduate school. What's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Abigail Weycker [00:18:06]: So I live by this quote now. I heard it, I want to say, last year sometime from a professor, actually. He came into the office one day and I was pulling my hair out. I was so stressed and it wasn't even work. It was just like these assignments are just piling up and everything was going crazy. And he looked at me and he was like, abby, take it day by day. If it doesn't work day by day, take it hour by hour. If it doesn't work hour by hour, take it minute by minute.

Abigail Weycker [00:18:32]: If you have to break it down like that, get one thing done, mark that off in your head and be like, whew, I did that. Okay, onto the next thing. If you break it down more simply like that, then it's less stressful in your head and you have more of a mindset of, I can do this. I might be overwhelmed right now, but when I get this done, it's gonna feel so good and I'm gonna be so successful, it's all worth it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:55]: I love that quote. I think that's something that anybody going through graduate school should be living by, because it can get stressful. You can feel like an imposter sometimes. There, there are definite times where you are going to be challenged in many different ways. So it is important for you to be able to look at things in small chunks, take advantage of that and get the things done you can. And just like Abby said, take it minute by minute, second by second, whatever it takes to be able to get to that finish line. Because there will be times where you're continuing to look for that light and you're keeping to walking. You're walking, you're running, you're, you know, you're doing whatever you can to be able to get to that end point, whatever that end point is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: If it's your first masters, your second master's, whatever it may be, you've got to keep going. And I keep thinking of the old adage from Finding Nemo, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. It's the same type of mantra, but you've got to keep moving forward. So, Abby, as you think about others, other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it's going for an mba, whether it's going for whatever degree, and you think back to your own education thus far and what you've learned, what are some tips that you might want to offer other individuals that you might not have shared thus far that would help students find success sooner?

Abigail Weycker [00:20:20]: Really, I would say just dip your toe in and try and if it doesn't feel successful, feel good, feel like you don't continue. If it feels amazing and you're like, wow, I can do this, I think I can see myself continuing, keep doing it class by class. And like I said, hour by hour, day by day, like you can take it as slow or as fast paced as you want to. It's. Nobody's telling you your timetable. It's completely up to what is best for you and suits you to be successful both in life and in school. And I, I wish that I was less hard on myself in that way. And even now I still am.

Abigail Weycker [00:20:57]: But have fun with it. I mean, obviously take it seriously, grades and all that, it's important. But enjoy your time in the school, enjoy the classes, enjoy the people you meet. Make those connections. They could be lifelong connections. I met my best friend in grad school. I might not have done that. I met professors that I know are recommendations for life.

Abigail Weycker [00:21:16]: I know that I will have connection with them for from now until forever. You don't know until you try and put that foot forward. Dip that toe in. Give it a shot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:26]: Great thoughts and I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Abby. And I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this today and for all the work that you're doing to engage with other students on campus. Abby also sits on our advisory board here at the University of Michigan Flint for our Office of Graduate Programs. So I'm always excited to be able to get her perspectives on things. So thank you for that as well. Again, getting engaged, getting involved in different ways. But Abby, I just want to say thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:55]: Thank you for being here today, for sharing your perspectives, and I wish you all the best.

Abigail Weycker [00:21:58]: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:00]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is more than just the next step in your academic journey—it's a transformational experience that brings both challenges and opportunities. In this week's episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Joslynn Walsh, a first-year student in the Physician Assistant (PA) program at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her real-world insights on what it truly takes to thrive as a graduate student.

From the outset, Joslynn Walsh recounts her unique introduction to the PA profession during her online freshman year, amid the restrictions of the Covid-19 pandemic. She highlights how proactive research, virtual events, and community panels shaped her decision to pursue a career as a Physician Assistant. Joslynn's experience resonates with anyone who's had to adapt and find clarity in uncertain times.

A key theme running through Joslynn's story is the value of community. She chose UM-Flint's PA program not just for its convenient location, but for its deep connections with the Flint community. Opportunities for service learning—like volunteering at local organizations and engaging with outreach programs—set this program apart, allowing students to make a real difference while preparing for their careers. As Joslynn notes, "It's important to be present in your community, not just talk the talk, but walk the walk."

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school isn't without its challenges. Joslynn openly discusses her own hurdles, from buying a home to adjusting to her husband's military commitments—all while starting a rigorous academic program. Her biggest takeaway? The importance of flexibility. Graduate school, especially in the medical field, demands adaptability, perseverance, and a willingness to embrace the unexpected.

Impostor syndrome is another reality addressed on the podcast. For Joslynn, early experiences in simulated patient encounters and urgent care settings helped her overcome self-doubt and step confidently into her role. She emphasizes that such experiences help students get comfortable with the uncomfortable—an essential skill for any future medical provider.

Finally, Joslynn offers sage advice to those considering graduate school: do your research, connect with professionals in your field, and strive for a healthy work-life balance. Above all, she reminds us that success isn't just about academic achievement—it's about caring for yourself and your community.

Want to hear more about the journey, the challenges, and the victories? Listen to this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and be inspired to make your own mark in graduate school and beyond.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk, to be able to help you in finding that success that you want and in this journey that you're on. And it is a journey because each person goes through a different process that you have to go through to be able to figure out for yourself what do you have to do to be able to not only apply, get accepted, but then once you transition into a graduate school, what do you have to do to be successful? And every week, I love being able to introduce you to different people with different experiences that can give you some perspective on that and what they've learned from along the way. And today we got another great guest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Joslynn Walsh is with us today. And Joslynn is a first year student in the physician assistant program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I am really excited to be able to talk to her about her own journey and what she's learned thus far. And she's currently in the program, so she's still learning and it's definitely not something that is done. She's going to continue to learn.

Joslynn Walsh [00:01:24]: So.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: So I'm really excited to introduce her to you and to have her on the show today. Joslynn, thanks so much for being here.

Joslynn Walsh [00:01:31]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be able to chat.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: Well, I'm excited to have you here as well, to be able to learn from your experiences. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point in you getting that undergraduate degree, you made a choice, you made a choice that you wanted to continue your education to become a physician assistant. Take me back to that point where you decided that that was the route and what was going through your head.

Joslynn Walsh [00:02:00]: Well, it kind of was an idea that started maybe freshman year. My freshman year looked a little different than most because it was online due to Covid restrictions. So I would say that my freshman year was kind of unique and was very situational, obviously like one of a kind scenario. And unfortunately it kind of closed off a lot of options as far as being able to investigate campuses. So I just think I had to do a lot of research on my own and that included shadowing and trying to do internships, but those weren't available due to Covid. So there was a online event. It was not really a job career event, but I think it was geared more towards like pre med students. And we had a few guest speakers and community members come in to speak on health careers and health professions.

Joslynn Walsh [00:02:57]: So there was nursing from local facilities. I think there was a few that came from Hurley and McLaren and they came to talk on what the nursing model is. And then there was a couple of nurse practitioners who had taken the extra step and we got to hear from both of those professions. And then there was an MD who I believe specialized in nephrology. So got to hear his experience going all the way through a doctoral program. And then there was a PA and it was really cool because it was like a panel. You got to hear the difference between each of the. And when somebody is making a decision on what to be, it's not only hard to come to the decision to pick medical, but what in the medical career.

Joslynn Walsh [00:03:43]: So that educational panel was really where it all started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:47]: Now you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your physician assistant program. And there's a number of different physician assistant programs, not only in the state of Michigan, but beyond that. So talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what was going through your head as you were going through that and what made you ultimately decide to attend U of M Flint?

Joslynn Walsh [00:04:09]: Probably the community. I do think the Flint community has a lot to offer. It's not just location and it's convenient access to where I live, but it's more than that. It's the farmer's market, it's the hospitals, it's the community service with like so many outreaches nearby. There's the Michigan Food bank. So close, I mean, you name it. There's so many facilities that are in need. And that's something that's always really appealed to me.

Joslynn Walsh [00:04:37]: And our program specifically is fortunate enough to participate with a lot of these outreach facilities where our students are enrolled in giving back to the community. And not a lot of PA programs offer such an opportunity for service learning. Maybe they'll do like a cohort day. Well, they'll go do like a field trip and go spend XYZ hours sorting food together. And it's made two hour event. Our program does. So our students are participants in multiple programs in the community all year. And I think that's something that's important to me having been a volunteer advocate throughout high school and undergrad and continuing that community participant.

Joslynn Walsh [00:05:20]: And I think it's so important as future medical providers to understand the community you're working in, understand your population, not just like their needs, but also to be present in the community yourself. So it's one thing to talk, but it's another thing to walk the walk. And I think as future medical providers, whether it's nursing or all the way up to an md, like, it's important to be present in your community. And I think our program does a fantastic job of reinforcing that and actually showing the effort that comes from that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that every student that goes through a process of getting accepted into a graduate program, as you enter into that graduate program, there is a process of transition, because the way that you're educated as an undergraduate student is very different than the way that you're being educated as a graduate student. So as you think about this transition that you've gone through over the last year, in stepping into the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint, you found success and you've been able to be successful. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on thus far?

Joslynn Walsh [00:06:32]: I definitely think it's hard to think about your successes without thinking about your trials and tribulations. So my program started January 2025. So not a quite full year yet, but almost there. And January. It was an interesting start date because I feel like most programs start in the fall and it's kind of all coordinated at the same time. But having that winter start date was already a little odd. And then I bought a house in January that was quite difficult. My timing was not my best.

Joslynn Walsh [00:07:00]: I' but that's just how things go. I do think that it was a learning curve with the adjustment of responsibility. My husband serves in the Army National Guard, and he was currently on his officer training status during that time. So I didn't have my support system. So having the newfound, I guess, learning curve of graduate school life and making that adjustment, buying a house, not having that support system, he was floundering in January. It was hard to transition for me, particularly my experience, not to say that that's the experience my colleagues share. I do think it encouraged me to be flexible, which is so important as you navigate that transition time between undergraduate learning is being flexible. And I think that has been my biggest takeaway in not being able to control everything and being able to take that step back.

Joslynn Walsh [00:07:53]: And which honestly saying that out loud because Is that not the perfect estimate in the medical field? Being able to be flexible when a thrown at you? It's unusual to being able to provide good patient care, being able to make decisions on the fly. I do think that it opened my eyes. I am ready for this. While it didn't feel like that maybe occurring during the experience, looking back on it, I'm very proud of myself for being able to persevere through those hard circumstances. But flexibility is just crucial in graduate school and making that transition as you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:28]: Entered into a program that is rigorous. Because I know that the physicians assistant program is definitely rigorous. It challenges you in many different ways. And I know that a lot of students that would go through that type of situation may feel a sense of imposter syndrome or self doubt in regard to am I ready for this? Am I good enough? Am I good enough to be here? Talk to me about that. And did you have any point in the last year where that has crept in and how did you handle it?

Joslynn Walsh [00:08:57]: So our program, I do think it's a standard that most doctoral programs and PA programs will conduct some, some type of standardized patient simulation, like a standardized patient experience where you have actors who are presented with some type of case and you act out your role, whether that is a PA or a nurse or whatever that position might look like. So I do think that that's pretty standard across all programs. So having that opportunity to it be no risk, you're it's an actor, it is a pretend situation. Getting that opportunity to make those mistakes with no risk is honestly the big opportunity to be able to watch those errors back and see how you would do it differently. But not only that, to actually put the white coat on and to be the one knocking on the door. And it's something so simple that you don't think about whether your experience prior to this was being a medical assistant, whether it was scribing in a doctor's office. We're not the ones coming in all dressed up, knocking on the door, making those introductions, those formal introductions, I'm here to see you today. And those minute things that you don't think about going into school definitely can invoke the imposter syndrome, I think.

Joslynn Walsh [00:10:12]: And we get to practice those scenarios, we get to in real time pretend to be the provider. And right now I need to stop using the word pretend because in five short months that I'm going into clinical rotations and I might be the only provider they're seeing in real time. So I practice this almost every time I go to the simulated patient experience, but also our program on something I'm very passionate about and very excited that our PA program does is Clinical Emergence. And our students are participants in Urgent Cares and around the community, the Flint community, a few other local areas. And these Urgent Cares have preceptors who allow us to come in as students and to see patients under the supervision of the urgent care provider. So as a student, having not gone to clinicals yet, I think it's once or twice a month we have the opportunity to go to Urgent Cares and to see patients on our own and then go back in the room with our preceptor. And having those experiences, experiences early on, I think gives me that edge and being able to get over that imposter syndrome a little early on before I get to clinicals. And it's the real deal.

Joslynn Walsh [00:11:21]: I continuously, every time I go, I'm wearing my white coat, I'm knocking on the door, I'm introducing myself as a student and that has helped me tremendously assume my position and assume my role and kind of get over that fear. But I think with any medical provider, it's always going to be there in the back of your head. It's always going to be there saying, oh man, this is an emergency situation, I need to go get help. Nope, I am the help. They are here to see me. And you need to almost get over it. And it's blunt, it's hard, it's hard. But you are, you are their last line defense in sometimes, in some cases, sometimes.

Joslynn Walsh [00:11:55]: We don't always have a huge medical team and a huge resourceful hospital. Sometimes you're the only provider in a rural medicine office and you are their doctor, for lack of a better term. So I'm very proud of my program for putting us in those positions early. Get over the awkwardness, get over the fear and be able to come out stronger. It's huge.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:16]: You know, as you think about the transition that you went into graduate school, what you've learned thus far, and you think back to before you started, what's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Joslynn Walsh [00:12:30]: It's hard to think before this started, honestly, like, that's so cheesy, but honestly, this feels like it's gone on forever and I've only ever been in PA school. Was there ever a time before PA school? I don't know, I can't even think that far. But jokes aside, I, I do, I wish I had more opportunity to spend more hands on time with PAs, with COVID and some of those shadowing and turning restrictions, I didn't get to do that as much as I wanted. So I got to do some like over the phone, like interviews and questioning people who were already practicing, which was helpful. But it's totally different being in the clinic and seeing things hand on and in real time. And I wish I would have had that opportunity. To be honest, before my program timing was against me. I do feel like when I was applying and going through the process, but I think if I were to go on, I mean now I'm a cohort mentor.

Joslynn Walsh [00:13:22]: So for the upcoming cohort of class of 2028, now we got assigned our mentees and being able to assume that position and being able to maybe instill some advice going on. I do think that having a work life balance is crucial. You can't be in your books 24 7. It's not healthy, it's not maintainable. You want to be a good student, you want to be able to pursue your endeavors and have those hobbies. But to balance it. And you need to find something that works for you, whether it's making a schedule or setting aside specific time for activities or for studying. Setting yourself up for success in that capacity of work life balance, whatever it looks like for you, is huge.

Joslynn Walsh [00:14:05]: And I know a lot of speakers have touched on that in the past on the podcast. And it's not wrong and it must not be wrong because people keep encouraging it and reinforcing it. And it's very true. Grad students need to have a retreat, a form of self care, and you need to attend your studies. There's no way around it. There really isn't. You have to find something that is balanced and will get you where you need to be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:30]: I know you just gave a piece of advice, but I want to leave one more opportunity that if you were thinking about a student that was thinking about graduate school, whether whether it be physician assistant or any other field, what's one piece of advice that you'd want to give to to every student?

Joslynn Walsh [00:14:49]: I think if it's regardless of it being medical, regardless of the background, I would say I think it's important to consider whether or not it's necessary. And what I mean by that is I would talk to people who are already in the field and really get the nitty gritty because some people have been extremely successful in respective fields having no master's degree. So it looks different with every profession. So I do think it would be important to have those conversations with people who are already working, who have had successful careers in the career you are desiring because there's nothing more concrete evidence than people who are currently doing the job you want. So in understanding that fields and careers change over time, so maybe requirements that weren't needed 10 years ago maybe are needed now. Maybe there are recruitment officers who are seeing a huge change in degrees and maybe populations saying everybody who we've hired in the last year had a four year degree and went on to get a master's. And maybe the fact of the matter is that's what's needed now for that job. So I think it's one thing to look things up and try to do your own research and it's a whole other thing to talk to people who are currently doing that job.

Joslynn Walsh [00:16:06]: So I know that sounds all very vague, but it's, it is sometimes vague. You need to hear it from the horse's mouth sometimes and know what you're getting into. So having those conversations with recruiters, going to job fairs is super important, especially if you are in more mathematics, a STEM field that's a field that's ever changing technology and advancement. So knowing what the most up to date information is super helpful. So I think talking to people who know what they're talking about is definitely helpful for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:38]: Well, Joslyn, I just want to say thank you. I know that you are still working toward the light at the end of the tunnel. It's out there. You're going to be getting into your clinicals here very, very soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing more about the journey that you're on as you're going through this experience. But I really appreciate you sharing the journey thus far with all of us today. And I truly wish you all the best.

Joslynn Walsh [00:17:01]: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint Eduardo Graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you contemplating graduate school or already embarking on the journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" provides a wealth of inspiration and practical wisdom for anyone at any stage of their graduate education. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this insightful conversation with Dr. Greg Laurence, a seasoned professor of management at the University of Michigan-Flint, explores the twists and turns of building a career through graduate studies.

Dr. Greg Laurence offers a candid and relatable account of his own path—from earning a bachelor's degree in history, to teaching English in Japan, and ultimately finding his way into a management MBA and an international relations master's degree at Syracuse University. His story is marked by openness to change, reflection, and an emphasis on following your curiosity. He explains that the decision to pursue an MBA was driven by a desire to gain vocabulary and foundational knowledge in business, especially after experiencing the necessity for versatile skills while working abroad.

A key theme throughout the episode is the reality of transitions. Whether moving from undergraduate studies to the workforce, or shifting from professional roles back into academia, Dr. Greg Laurence discusses how these moments can feel daunting but are ultimately rewarding. From battling imposter syndrome to adjusting study habits that change with age, he insists that success is about finding your footing, developing effective routines, and embracing the challenges inherent in graduate programs.

The podcast doesn't just recount personal experiences; it's full of actionable advice for prospective and current students. Dr. Greg Laurence shares strategies for building self-belief ("You belong in this context"), leveraging diverse backgrounds for fresh perspectives, and not being afraid to voice ideas that may seem unconventional. Graduate school, he says, should challenge assumptions and push students to grapple with difficult questions in a supportive environment—without fear of costly mistakes.

"Victors in Grad School" is more than just a resource; it's a community for those on the graduate education journey. If you're on the fence about diving into grad school or looking for practical strategies to thrive, this episode is sure to resonate. Listen to hear not just the 'how,' but also the 'why' behind the transitions that shape successful careers—and discover the confidence to take the next step in your own academic journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being on this journey with you, this journey that you're on, to be able to move toward graduate school. And you might be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about, do I want to do this graduate degree? Or maybe you've applied, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're getting ready to start, maybe you're in graduate school, doesn't matter. But you are on a journey, and this podcast is here to help, because every week, I love being able to help you, give you some tools for your toolbox to help you prepare to be successful in this journey that. That you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: That's why every week I bring you different guests with different experiences that can give you some different opportunities to be able to learn and grow from their own experiences. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Greg Lawrence is with us today, and Dr. Lawrence is a professor of management at the University of Michigan, Flint, and he's been here for a little over 15 years, and he's had his own graduate school journey. He started in Ohio and went from there to Syracuse, and we'll talk about all of that. So I'm really excited to have him here today to talk. Talk about his own journey and to share that with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: Dr. Lawrence, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:01:31]: Thanks for inviting me. It's a good opportunity to reach out to prospective and current students and give them a, maybe a different kind of a sense of who a professor is and how in the world some of us got into doing this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Well, I want to take you back in time because I know, as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate degree at Ohio University, and you did that in history. And not everybody would expect that a person that got a bachelor's degree in history would go on to be a professor.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:02:00]: Not. Not everyone, including me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: So I guess I want to hear more of this story. So take me back to that point. So you did your undergraduate degree, like I said, at Ohio University, got that bachelor's degree in history, and then you had a little bit of a break where you had got some experience, did some different things, and at some point, you made a decision that you wanted to continue your education, and you chose to do an MBA So bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that that was the right time to make that switch and make that jump into graduating?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:02:35]: So it probably isn't the simplest answer. After undergrad, maybe, like a lot of people, I was a little bit lost about what I wanted to do. And I had gone into undergrad thinking for sure that I would go on to grad school in history. And I really got burned out as an undergrad and didn't feel like I was ready to do that at that point in life. And I had a job. I was working in a paint store, of all places. And that company, they actually approached me about joining their management training program. And going down that route is a fairly accelerated thing where you went through different rotations in different parts of the business.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:03:13]: And they were really sort of aiming for people who would end up as, like, district managers and continue on up the chain. And I knew pretty quickly that I was not all that interested in paint, and that that was not going to be a fit for me. And I remember I saw an ad in a. In a newspaper, said, do you want to work in Asia? Buy our book for 1995, and if you don't have a job within 90 days, we'll refund your money. And I thought, okay, well, try that. And that led to teaching English in Japan. I applied for a job within maybe two or three weeks of having that book, and within two months that I had a visa and was in Japan working. And I taught English there for six years.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:03:54]: I thought it would be one or two, and one or two became six. And really at the end of the fifth year is when I made this decision. So I was working at a high school, and I had this conversation with the principal about performance, as you do. You know, he was saying, oh, yeah, we're super excited. You're doing such a great job. We really love the work you're doing with the students. We want to keep you here, but we can't give you a raise. And there I was, frankly, I was at the end.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:04:17]: I had worked for a company teaching English for four years, and then I wanted to teach high school in junior high. So I left the company to go teach high school. When I did that, I took a pretty big pay cut, which was offset by free rent and some other things that the school had that ended up meaning I was making or what I had made when I left the company. But at that point, I was like, wait a minute. I don't think I can do this. As a long term career. And frankly I was not at all sure what I wanted to do. The goal was to be able to do anything in Japan that was not, not teaching English.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:04:49]: And as I thought about that, I thought working for the company where I had worked, we had been involved in the business. So we had monthly meetings about profit and loss at our branch school and how were we going to increase revenue, what were the different ways that we could increase revenue. And we had done some things but I had never really understood fundamentally what it was that made businesses tick. And it seemed to me as though if I was going to make this move from teaching into some non teaching field that having some training would be a good idea. And I mean, I think there are those who would say the heck with that, just find an entry level job, you can sell your transferable skills to somebody and you'd be able to find an entry level job. But I'm sort of more. I liked the idea of having some vocabulary and some sense of the way that people around me were going to be thinking. And that is really what led to the decision to get an mba.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:05:42]: And I was in Japan when I did all the applications. So I was geographically untethered from really I could have gone anywhere, anywhere in the US and ended up choosing Syracuse for a variety of reasons. One was the financial aid package, but another was the opportunity there to do a concurrent master's in international relations at the same time that I did the MBA and at the Maxwell School at Syracuse is a pretty well regarded school. So I was like, well that's a really cool combination that gives me the functional thinking around business, but then also satisfies some interests that I had connected back to history in an interest, interesting way. And it ended up turning out that that combination of things was really instrumental in terms of finding a job afterwards. Really fundamentally the reason the decision was based on. I was at a point in my life where I felt like I needed to make a left turn or right turn, whichever one you call it. But I wasn't going straight on from that point.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:06:42]: And that was the degree that I felt was going to open as many doors as possible and to make those ideas around. I don't know what industry I want to be in. I don't really know functional area of business I want to be in yet. But if I study them all, maybe that'll help me find a direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:59]: Now you found your direction because you went in, you went through that master's degree and you ended up going from there and you ended up Deciding to continue your education into a PhD?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:07:12]: Yeah, but not right away. So I did. Yeah, I did. I finished my MBA in 2003. The last semester of my MA I did at Waseda University in Tokyo while I had an internship at afs. I don't know if you're familiar with them. American Field Service to do foreign exchange programs for high school students. And I had been an exchange student in one of their programs when I was in high school.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:07:35]: So when I arrived in Tokyo, I sent a letter to their Tokyo office and said, hey, here I am. I speak Japanese pretty well, can I come and work in the office? And they said, sure, we'll give you something to do. So so I did that and until I was done with degree and then found a job for a development consulting company in Tokyo that was doing World Bank, Asian Development bank, those kind of big international financial institution consulting projects all over the world, I suppose mostly in Southeast Asia, but really in, you know, the former Soviet bloc. Lots of interesting places. And I worked in business development for them for two years and then transitioned over to. Transitioned from them over to the American Chamber of Commerce in Japan where I was the membership manager. Now that was a cool job. Actually both of those jobs were pretty cool.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:08:28]: But one thing that I discovered about myself was that I get bored pretty easily. And six months into each of those jobs I was like, oh my gosh, give me something different to do and something more meaty to chew on. And those contexts didn't allow for that. And I had had three professors during the MBA program, I think independ, but who knows, maybe they were talking to each other. They had suggested while I was in the MBA program, hey, have you ever thought about getting a PhD in management? And of course my answer was no. Who has? Conceptually I understood that the professors had PhDs in something, but what it was I didn't know. And that sort of earbud, I guess you'd call it, came back to me as I was sitting at work fairly bored. And so I got back in touch with one of those professors and I said, hey, can you tell me more about this? And he sent me a stack of peer reviewed journal articles to read and you know, said, read these and if, if you're still interested you can get back to me.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:30]: It was that realization that.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:34]: The sort of the intellectual stimulation.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:39]: I just hadn't. Maybe I, you know, there are probably places to work where one would get it, but I hadn't found them. And that's what really led me back to.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:09:48]: Thinking that a PhD at more graduate school was the right direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:52]: Now, with both the master's and the doctorate degrees, there are transitions, just like going from an undergraduate to a graduate degree. There's transitions in the way that you learn, the way that you're what you're expected to do, the all of those pieces. And you made transitions from your undergrad to work, from work, to school, from school, back to work, from work, back to school. You made a number of transitions in your journey. As you think about the transition transitions that you made in your master's, in your doctorate degree, and you think about what you had to do in those transitions, what did you have to do in those transitions, both at the front end when you were transitioning into graduate school to be able to find success, but what did you have to also do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:10:41]: So I think for sure, for the first one into the MBA program, that that was challenging because I didn't have, or I didn't think I had the sort of stereotypical, prototypical business background. Being a history major and then having taught English for six years, certainly I was worried about whether I would fit with the classmates in my cohort and whatnot who were coming from what I would have considered to be more traditional business backgrounds. And so there was some length of time during which I had to, you know, it was about establishing to myself that I belonged in that context. And, you know, I studied my butt off, frankly, for the first eight weeks or so of the first semester. I mean, until that first midterm came around, and it was an accounting midterm. And I was like, I cannot afford for this to go badly, so I need to nail this thing. When the grade came back from that, I was like, oh, okay, well, this may not be. This may not be so bad.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:11:43]: And that gave me a lot of confidence to then transition into, I guess, at that point, like a role that I really fit naturally. Right. All of a sudden, I had classmates coming to me for help on accounting and finance and supply chain homework, which, if you would ask anyone I know prior to me starting my MBA program, like, do you think people will come to Greg with questions and for help on quantitative things? They would have been like, you're out of your mind. Of course not. But I just found that it was a much better fit for the way that I think than I thought it was going to be. And I transitioned into that really well. I found that my background, you know, ended up being really valued in the classroom by classmates and by faculty. And I tell this to students.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:12:28]: I just had a conversation the other day, in fact, with one of this, one of our students who's in the MBA program, who is an educator, and she was expressing some worry about fit and whether she was in the right place and what was she going to be able to do post. And I said, look, we think that those kinds of different experiences that people have are really valuable. And you're working in an organization, you're working with people, you have the same kinds of interpersonal conflicts that everybody else has. Don't let anyone tell you that working in a school is not working in the real world. It's very real. And that once you realize that, okay, somebody, person X who works for engineering firm or a person Y who works for an insurance firm, they don't necessarily have a leg up on you in your area if you're coming at it from a different angle, because that different angle is by itself of value. So I think that was the big transition from sort of that first work experience into the MBA program. The transition into the PhD program was probably more difficult.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:13:32]: First, I was what, seven years older and my brain was seven years less sponge, like it was more like pouring water onto a brick. And some of it seeps in, but not very much. Like that's how it kind of felt when I started. And the intentionality of having to study really truly full time, 55 hours a week to make a dent in my understanding of the field that I was in was a real challenge. The first semester of the PhD program was much, much rougher of a transition than had been the first semester of the mba. But I mean, I think like, just as with the mba, it was about finding footing and figuring out your routine and figuring what kinds of study approaches work for you, like your body, your brain, everything about you is different at 30 than it was at 20. And so the, the same rules no longer apply. And you have to feel, feel things out a little bit there at the beginning to sort of understand, do you need him? I see young people all the time seem to be totally fine with studying in a coffee shop and with that noise and whatnot.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:14:37]: Or I could not. There's no way I could do that when I was 35, and no way that I would have had to be. I found myself needing to be in with noise, noise canceling, headphones on and completely isolated from everything to be able to concentrate on reading or whatever I was doing. So I think it's about finding your routine and finding, finding, you know, what works for you and how to how to balance your work in your life. You can study 100 hours a week if you want to. You probably shouldn't, I think.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]: Yep, definitely understand that. And there is that balance that you have to find for yourself. And it's the notion, always easy, I guess, as you think about your own graduate school experience and you think about the experiences that you've had working with graduate students. Now you mentioned talking to a graduate student just recently about that I'm going to say imposter syndrome of am I really good enough to be here? Am I smart enough? Am I, you know, all of those things, those am I questions that come up as you think about students that are thinking about graduate school today, whether it be an MBA or some other pieces. What are some tips that you might offer them as they are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:15:56]: I mean, it's easy to say, but like, don't worry about that stuff. I think relatively few people make a decision to go to graduate school lightly. I mean, I think relatively few people wake up one day and say, I think I'm going to devote the next three years of my life to going to grad school. I think most people have put some thought into it and most people have investigated the content of the degree that they want to pursue. What's the curriculum going to look like, what courses are being offered, this kind of thing. And something about that has attracted them and taken them to the point where they're being intentional about filling out an application to do it. And if that's the case, then I think I would balance that self belief. I have chosen to do this because it's the right thing for me at this time in my life.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:16:45]: And that's going to, I think, balance out those questions that you have. And you need to sort of, you may be in that first class and.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:16:55]: Maybe somebody says something that you're like, that's really profound, like, how did they think of that? And that may be intimidating, but I would think to yourself and you know, think like all think about the fact that that person may be two thirds of the way through their program and they've been exposed to a bunch of content that you have not yet. And so it's natural that they've got these different lenses to view things through and they may say something that you're like, that's really cool. How did they think of that? Well, they thought about it, about it because they've been exposed to all of these other things that you're going to be exposed to going forward. And so maybe that's just an indication of how you're going to be able to think about stuff six months or a year from now and your tool kit isn't as complete as theirs are. And that's totally fine. So that I think is the biggest thing to realize is that, okay, yes, there are these moments that are going to feel intimidating, but if you think about them for a minute or two, you'll realize that it's probably just that those folks have a, have built things up and they've cobbled together ideas that you are yet to be exposed to. So take that idea that they just said and stick it in your back pocket and think about it. When you get into a marketing class, that concept that they were talking about comes up and now you can make that connection back to that first moment and be like, aha, I see what was going on there.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:18:13]: So that I think to me is the biggest thing that it's like, I don't know, I guess I can really remember being a, being like a freshman or a sophomore in college and you get a syllabus for a class and it would be like you have to write a 25 page term paper on some aspect of Babylonian history or whatever and you're like, I don't know anything about this. How am I going to ever write a 25 page paper on it? Well, of course you don't know anything about it. It's day one of the class and you're not going to know enough to even define a topic until week five. So relax, don't freak out about that stuff. The class, I mean, have confidence in the faculty. I mean, that's one piece of advice that's, that's a good one. Right? Broadly, we have thought faculty fairly carefully about does this class need a prerequisite in order for you to be successful? If not, you'll be okay even if other people are in the class and they've already had a bunch of other courses. Like we're, we've designed the course so that you can be successful if you don't have a prerequisite.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:11]: Because if you couldn't, we would put a prerequisite on it. So I think that's, that's one piece of advice, right? Is like, sure, be nervous. Sometimes stress is good eustress, they call it in the business. But you know, also realize that these things are sort of designed so that you're not being set up for failure. And.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:33]: If you do what's on the page as far as the syllabus is concerned and you read what you're supposed to read and you know you'll be okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:39]: Well, Greg, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing everything that you have learned thus far. And I'm sure you're still learning as you work with more students, as you're teaching more classes. But I truly appreciate your time today and for you sharing all of this with us, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:19:59]: If I can give one more piece of advice to a student, it is to not be afraid to express thoughts and ideas that you have about class content that may feel like they're coming out of left field. I have designed my courses to be the courses themselves are out of left field for a lot of people. They come in and they look at my syllabi and they go, what is going on in terms of the structure of the course and how the grading systems are set up and things like that. But they're designed to free the students to think about problem from different angles. And you shouldn't be afraid to do that. Graduate school is about exposing yourself to different ways of thinking and to challenge your assumptions, and it shouldn't be. And this is, I'm stealing from Michael Wheeler, who's a Harvard faculty member who wrote a paper about this that I read once. It should not be painless.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:20:50]: You should have your assumptions challenged and you should struggle with things. And if you're not struggling with things, like you're not probably, I think you're probably not thinking about them hard enough. You're just sort of scratching the surface of the content that's in front of you. And I would encourage you to go deeper and to grapple with the tough questions because it's a place where you can do that without costing your company $5 million. For example, the decisions that you make about how to think about a problem in a business class, I mean, if it's not right, that's okay, right? Learn from that mistake. You didn't just press the wr. The wrong button on a keyboard and cost, you know, make a trade you weren't supposed to that lost your company 3 million bucks or whatever. So it's.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:21:35]: I, I find the whole. I really liked being in grabbing and I like being in graduate school enough that I did it twice and spent a long time, a long time there. So hopefully students will, will hear this. Prospective students may hear this, think, you know what? I'm going to give it a shot, and I think you'll come out of the other side of it. With a real sense of accomplishment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:55]: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that today, for sharing your own perspectives, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Greg Laurence [00:22:03]: Thanks very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:25]: To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you considering graduate school or currently navigating your own academic path? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" shines a light on what it really takes to thrive—both academically and personally—through the honest, inspiring journey of Olivia Warrington, a second-year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the episode opens by setting the stage for listeners at any point in their graduate school journey. Whether you're just thinking about applying, already accepted, or deep into your studies, this podcast is designed to offer practical tips and relatable stories from students and experts who have been there before.

Olivia Warrington shares her winding road from an initial pursuit of veterinary medicine to discovering her passion for physical therapy—thanks in part to a serendipitous conversation with a peer. Her experience is a powerful reminder that sometimes, the most impactful decisions can stem from the simplest moments.

A major theme discussed in the episode is the need for self-discovery and adaptability. Olivia Warrington reflects on her transition from undergraduate studies, where she admits to "skating by," to finding success in graduate school through refined study habits and intentional learning. She candidly discusses her process of trial and error, emphasizing that what works for others may not work for you—and that's okay. Her advice? Develop effective study strategies early and continually refine them as you go.

The importance of balance comes up repeatedly. Olivia Warrington talks about the challenge of not letting academic demands eclipse family and personal life, recounting how she learned to say yes to life outside of school without sacrificing her grades. Her journey underscores that holistic success in graduate school means making intentional time for both education and cherished relationships.

Another highlight is Olivia Warrington's emphasis on building a supportive community. She gives credit to her peer group for providing not only academic support but also critical emotional encouragement. Find people who align with your values and study approach, she suggests, as these relationships can carry you through the toughest moments.

To anyone considering graduate school, she offers words of encouragement: have confidence in yourself, explore all opportunities, and don't be afraid to ask questions. Your educational path may have unexpected twists, but with the right mindset and support, success is within reach.

Tune in to this episode for honest insights, motivation, and the assurance that you're not alone on your journey to becoming a victor in grad school. Listen now!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is. As you are thinking about graduate school, you may be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:31]: You may have already applied, maybe you got accepted, maybe you've started graduate school. No matter where you are on this continuum, you're on a journey. You're on a journey toward meeting the goals that you've set for yourself. And this podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. I love being able to have an opportunity every week to sit down with you, to talk to you, to provide you some hints, some tips, some things that you can use to be able to find success in your own journey sooner. That's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to think about things in different ways and allow for you to learn from what they've learned in their own educational journey. This week we got another great guest. Olivia Warrington is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:15]: And Olivia is a second year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she's had her own educational journey that led her to being here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm excited to be able to talk to her, to learn from her, and to share that with you. Olivia, thanks so much for being here today.

Olivia Warrington [00:01:36]: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Super excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and I want to take you back in time because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Detroit Mercy, and. And at some point in that educational journey, whether it was right there at UD Mercy or sometime before that, or sometime in between, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education. You wanted to become a physical therapist. Bring me back to that point and what was going through your head as you were making that choice for yourself of wanting to continue that education.

Olivia Warrington [00:02:13]: I always knew from a young age that I was going to do more school after high school and I was probably gonna have to do more school after. I was probably gonna do some kind of GR program, my childhood dream. And up until my junior year, I was heavily committed to veterinary medicine. And I started that journey. And I got there and I went through. I was still a biology major at that time, so going into my third year, I took five years to do undergrad. And I. I was like, ah, this just doesn't feel right.

Olivia Warrington [00:02:45]: This doesn't feel right. I was talking to some kid on the soccer team, and he was like, I'm gonna do physical therapy. I'm like, what is that? What does that entail? So I into it. And I was like, you know what? This sounds like something I could do. This sounds like, you know, I'll just. I'll give it a shot. I'll go shadow. And.

Olivia Warrington [00:03:02]: And I loved it. And it's not a super glamorous story by any means. It's just some kid telling me what he was doing. And I. I was like, yeah, I mean, if you're doing it, maybe I'll like it too. And then I stuck with it. And I love it. And I'm so glad that that person told me that he was going to do physical therapy.

Olivia Warrington [00:03:17]: That was about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: So every person goes through a journey after they make that decision to try to figure out, where do I want to go. You got into that fifth year, and you're starting to think about, okay, where am I going to go? What do I need to do? What kind of things do I need to think about? You ultimately decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about that process for yourself and what ultimately made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right school for you.

Olivia Warrington [00:03:46]: Yeah, overall, I was really looking for something to be close to home. Something I could commute and still live at home, save a bit of money, but if I had to stretch, I would. But. So I applied to all the schools in. In Michigan. I. I heard that physical therapy was really competitive. And so I was just like, you know what? I'm just gonna.

Olivia Warrington [00:04:03]: I'm gonna apply to everything, and hopefully I land somewhere. And fortunately enough, I actually got into quite a few schools, and I applied to nine, and I got into eight out of the nine. And I was. I was like, whoa. I did not expect that to happen. And I. Michigan and Oakland, Wayne State are kind of like the three commutable schools around me. And U of M Flint does a ton of community outreach, and I love that they can make this huge impact on mostly the neurological patients in.

Olivia Warrington [00:04:37]: In Flint with their pro bono clinic and all the exercise classes. I'm sure that Oakland and Wayne State also do those things as well. But I really liked going northbound on 75 instead of southbound. So it seemed like a great fit going and talking to the professors and whatnot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: Every student that chooses to go to graduate school has to go through a transition. You have to go through transition relearning how to learn in many different ways. Because you're educated in one way as an undergraduate student, you go to graduate school and there's different expectations from your faculty members. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. As you transitioned in and through your first year into your second year of physical therapy school, you found success. So what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your life, your graduate school journey thus far?

Olivia Warrington [00:05:30]: So, a little background on my undergrad. I. I wasn't a super great student. I. I really struggled. I had a really hard time finding what worked for me. And I just kind of like skated by and eventually it all clicked and it came together and it was good, but I never had any, like, true structure to my studying or to the people I surrounded myself with. And I, I just kind of, I just did it and then I ended up here.

Olivia Warrington [00:05:54]: And then in grad school, I had to really figure out. It kind of, it happened. So outcomes and you just have to pick it up and you have to study and you have to do it. So I had to find a great way to study and what personally worked for me because I was looking at other people and I was like, oh, that works for you and you're doing really good. That should work for me too. And that wasn't always the case. So I had to really quickly trial and error, all these different study habits. I found that in my first semester, but I really worked hard in developing those study habits.

Olivia Warrington [00:06:24]: And then it more fell into place second semester. And then by the third semester, I was like, this is it. This is how I'm going to study. This is what works for me. And then I was able to refine it from there, and it just works now. And now I'm doing good.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:36]: So talk to me about what did you have to do to be able to find that vibe for yourself? We'll say the mojo that you had to figure out for yourself to be able to get yourself on that right path. Were there specific things that you had to do was a trial and error? Was it something else that really helped you get to that point where you figured out, this is the right place for me?

Olivia Warrington [00:06:57]: Yeah, yeah. So what I personally had to do was I. I Didn't know what I could do minimally to maximize my time. So essentially just overstudied. I overstudied for everything and I put a ton of time. I'm, I'm very surprised that I wasn't burnt out after my first semester, but I, after that I was like, something's gotta change before I do hit that burnout. So I picked out the good things and then I held onto those and then I slowly trialed out little things, just keeping the core, that core one good thing, and then added some, some others as I went.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:34]: I share, I appreciate you sharing that. Now you're in your second year and there are definitely things that you had to do as you went along that helped you to become the professional that you are becoming. And I'm sure that there may have been points along the way where that imposter syndrome snuck in. Talk to me about that and what did you have to do to handle that?

Olivia Warrington [00:07:57]: So with the imposter syndrome, I don't think it's hit me so much yet. I am just starting my first big clinical rotation, so I'm just starting to feel like I'm like, do I even really know things? Which I'm starting to come around to find out that I do. I'm only on day two, so we'll. I'm still trying to prove to myself, but handling it, I'm still trying to figure out what is working best for me. But so far it's just been making sure I feel over prepared for my clinical rotations. Like when the day, night before or even two weeks prior, I was, I was really like freshening up on my skills and I guess throughout the program when I have had those inklings of imposter syndrome, I have, I've just really dug into my work and really made sure that I feel overprepared for specific situations. But in the long run, I'm still, I'm still really trying to figure that part out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:48]: So as you've been going through graduate school, there's a lot of times that, where you have to balance things and all of us wear different hats, we have different people vying for our attention, we have different things vying for our attention. And physical therapy as a educational area is a demanding field. It takes a lot of your time and requires a lot of you. So talk to me about balance and how did you find balance within your education in the sense of your schooling, but also balance in work and family and personal responsibilities that you had to maintain throughout graduate school?

Olivia Warrington [00:09:26]: This is a great Point and something that I really had a hard time navigating at the beginning. My first semester, it was just. I thought that I only could do school. I only said yes to school. And then it became very easy for me to just say yes to school and say no to everything else. So I. School just became my default. And I started missing out on things.

Olivia Warrington [00:09:46]: I started missing out on family events and I have little brothers, and so I. I started missing out on some of their big things. And I really hit a point where I was like, I really need to start prioritizing my time a little differently. I was doing really good my first semester and I was like, what can I. What can I cut to make it a little bit more of a work life balance type deal? So I just committed to saying yes to one thing. One thing. A week was my start. And so I started saying yes.

Olivia Warrington [00:10:20]: And I would go, I'd still do work that day or whatever in the morning, but. And then I. I saw the end result at the end of that second semester and I was like, oh, I did about the same. I did the same. So I'm still doing really well. I'm saying yes to family things. And then the next semester, I started saying yes to a couple more things. Just not extending myself over my limit, but still allowing myself to be immersed in my family and be a part of my little brother's life.

Olivia Warrington [00:10:48]: And my friends missed me so much and, and still did about the same. And so just a little bit of fluctuation, but I was still getting more family enrichment type deal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: So as you're thinking about the experience that you've had thus far in your experience in graduate school. And I know that the experience going through graduate school, especially within physical therapy, is a collaborative one in regard to the cohort that you are a part of and that you're with as you go through that experience and that it's important to have those systems of support for yourself throughout the graduate school experience. Talk to me about the relationships that you've been able to build with faculty or peers or students and how that has been able to help you in the journey that you've been on thus far.

Olivia Warrington [00:11:39]: Yeah, this one's also really important, in my opinion. At the beginning of grad school, we're all just individuals trying to find our way and trying to find our group. And then you start to slowly see everyone coagulate and you've got these groups. And I just. A couple of girls sought me out and they asked if I wanted to be a part of Their group chat and it just happened to work out so beautifully. The universe really aligned for me that day when I was asked to be. Kind of seemed like they're asking me to be their friend a little bit. And it was, it was very sweet.

Olivia Warrington [00:12:12]: And it just so happened that we had very similar study habits and just very a lot of things in common. How we view school, our excitement for learning and so finding that group that really fits what you, how you view school, how you view studying, how you view your career is very important. And I noticed that each of our little groups in the cohort are so vastly different in how we study and what we have in common and all these things. All very great individuals. But these groups, they fit together so beautifully and everyone succeeds in their own way. But with each other and having my friend group, I give them a ton of credit. I don't think I really would have made it this far without them and without their support. But we lean on each other so heavily and making sure that if it isn't really a great fit, we can always find another friend or at least someone to rely heavily on study wise.

Olivia Warrington [00:13:11]: But I really rely heavily on them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:13]: You know, another thing that comes to mind is that as you think back to your education, you think back to the transition into to physical therapy school and you think back to who you were before that. What's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Olivia Warrington [00:13:32]: I wish someone told me to have confidence. I know that's a simple one. I feel like a lot of people say that. But the confidence factor in my ability and my ability to study and my ability to potentially treat patients one day and to make a great impact in the community. I wish that was hammered, hammered in sooner. Sooner. It would have saved me some trouble in this last year. But yeah, I think that one's simple and sweet confidence.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:00]: And finally, as you think back to your own experience thus far and I know it's still going, but you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going to become a physical therapist or something completely different. What advice would you give to that individual that was thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner.

Olivia Warrington [00:14:22]: Smaller level study wise. I would find your way of studying in undergrad find that out sooner while you have room for more mistake. It will definitely save a lot of, a lot of hassle your first couple semesters if you have that lockdown sooner rather than later. But also to go and try everything. Go and shadow. Go, go ask as many questions as you can. I wish I. I wish that I.

Olivia Warrington [00:14:49]: I did that more. And I go to every in person interview and for. If you're applying and you get an interview to a school, go and look at the campus, talk to the students, go and do a tour on your own. I did that. And I think that was the best thing I could have done is I went and I just. I did it and I went in person and I experienced this whole beautiful process of applying to grad school. It's so hard, but if you can almost romanticize it a little bit and make it this, like, awesome process, it just makes it so much less stressful and so much more of an accomplishment when you get there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:23]: Well, Olivia, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing what you've learned thus far. I know it's not done. I know you still have time in front of you and probably your answers will be shaped over the next year and change as you are going through these intense clinical experiences. You're being put to the test for seeing how all that knowledge coalesces into the practice that you're doing with the patients that you're working with. But I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this, and I truly wish you all the best.

Olivia Warrington [00:15:57]: Thank you so much and I hope this information helps someone on their journey. All right. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit. Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you contemplating graduate school, or already navigating its rigorous demands? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" serves up a dose of inspiration, practical advice, and hard-earned wisdom from Seana Goodson, a proud University of Michigan Flint online DBA candidate and Netflix professional. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this conversation shines a light on what true resilience looks like—along with tips that can help anyone thrive on their own graduate journey.

Seana's story stands as a testament to the power of determination, unconventional paths, and lifelong learning. From navigating early obstacles as a young mother to returning to school and excelling at each step—from undergraduate studies in Sociology and English, to earning her MBA, and now thriving in a rigorous doctoral program—she embodies the spirit of perseverance and ambition.

A key takeaway? Graduate school is no walk in the park. As Seana Goodson bluntly puts it, "you have to be ready—100% ready." She stresses the importance of preparing yourself mentally, communicating clearly with family and friends, and carving out dedicated time for study, regardless of personal or professional obligations. Managing distractions by setting boundaries, using tools like calendar blocks, and being transparent with those who support you are essential strategies for success.

A recurring theme is the importance of building a support system—your "tribe." Seana Goodson credits her cohort and mentor network for providing the encouragement, understanding, and motivation that help her stay on track. Whether it's a group chat with peers or finding mentors ahead of you in the process, leaning on this community makes the journey more manageable and far less lonely.

On the topic of burnout, Seana is candid: it happens, but prioritizing self-care makes recovery possible. Meditation, carving out quiet moments, and giving herself grace are all tools she uses to avoid feeling overwhelmed.

This episode is packed with encouragement and actionable tips, from the value of seeking out campus resources to the importance of giving yourself grace—especially when imposter syndrome creeps in.

Ready to hear more about Seana's journey and pick up inspiration for your own graduate school road ahead? Tune into this week's episode of "Victors in Grad School" and discover what it truly takes to be a victor in your educational journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Seana Goodson [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because it is a journey. Every one of you that are thinking about graduate school, no matter where you are in this process, are on a journey. Whether you're just at the very beginning starting to think about graduate school, maybe you've applied, maybe you got accepted, or maybe you're in a program. Doesn't matter.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Every one of you is on this continuum, this journey that you're going to be going through to be able to move toward the goals that you've set for yourself. This podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. Every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can talk to you about the journeys that they have gone through or are in right now so that you can learn from them, maybe learn some things about what they did that maybe they wish they didn't do or things that they did that really worked. But in the end, it's all about helping you be successful. So I'm really excited that you're here, and I'm excited to introduce you to this week's guest, because this week's guest is Shauna Goodson, and Shauna has been in the entertainment business for many, many years. She works for Netflix and has her own graduate school journey, and she did her undergraduate work at Georgia State University, studying sociology in English. And we're going to learn a little bit more about the journey that she's been on to continue that education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: So I'm really excited to have her here today and to have her a part of this journey. Shauna, thanks so much for being here today.

Seana Goodson [00:02:00]: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, I am really excited to have you here today to have you share some of this journey. As I said, I know that you did your undergraduate work at Georgia State University, and at some point in that journey, you made a decision because you were studying sociology and English. But at some point in that journey, you made a decision to continue your education. Bring me back to that point where you said to yourself, I need to continue this and go to graduate school. What was going through your head and why did you make that choice?

Seana Goodson [00:02:34]: Well, for me, it's a lot of my so my journey has been anything but conventional. So I'll tell you about it. So even undergrad, so undergrad year, I've always been a rebel. So I'll let you guys know that right now. I've always been a rebel, so I'm always going against the grain. That's what we Aquarian people do. So when I was in undergrad, my sophomore year in undergrad, I got pregnant with my oldest son. So people said, oh, she's not going to.

Seana Goodson [00:03:01]: She's on the dropout. She's not going to go back to school. She's not going to do that. Yes, I did drop out. So that's why my journey is not conventional. So once I decided to go back, then I said, okay, all of these naysayers, you know, said, I couldn't. Let me show you. I can.

Seana Goodson [00:03:16]: So I did. So after I graduated from my undergrad with sociology in English, then I decided, okay, I'm going to go to grad school. I'm going to get my mba. So I did. I started on that journey and went to Nova Southeastern University, where I received my mba. And I've always had a thirst for knowledge, and I knew I wanted to continue. I knew I wanted to do something, even though my undergrad was soc. I knew I wanted to do something in the legal world.

Seana Goodson [00:03:43]: But I also have entertainment intertwined in that because I am a big entertainment fan. So I knew I wanted to start that journey somehow. I didn't know how, but I knew I wanted to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:55]: So talk to me a little bit about that initial decision. So you decided to go to Nova southeastern for an MBA. So why an MBA? But also, there's many MBAs that are out there. You were in Georgia. You were. You could have stayed in Georgia. You could have gone anywhere around the country, and almost every university has an mba. So talk to me about what was it about, specifically Nova Southeastern that ultimately made you decide that that was the right program for you?

Seana Goodson [00:04:24]: So the reason why I chose Nova 1 is because it was a highly reputable school. I mean, fantastic school. And one, I already had a child. So I knew I wanted to stay in the south because I had my kid. And. And also NOVA targeted people who are working adults. That. That's what stood out to me.

Seana Goodson [00:04:44]: I wanted a program where I could still have my job and take care of my son, but I can also get my mba and I could do it in a quick time. Like, I didn't have to take breaks. It wasn't that kind of schedule. So I just went all the way through and finished in 14 months.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: Now, I know that since that MBA you went off, you worked. You've been working for many years. But at some point in this continuum of being in the entertainment industry for many years, at some point you made the decision, I'm not done and I want to continue. And you ultimately decided to apply to a doctorate of Business administration program here at the University of Michigan Flint. And you got in here. So talk to me about, just like we talked about with the mba, why a dba and why the University of Michigan Flint?

Seana Goodson [00:05:33]: Well, let's talk about the University of Michigan Flint. Let's talk about the University of Michigan, the best school on the planet planet. And I am a huge Michigan supporter. My youngest son graduated from Umich Ann Arbor, and he's now a student at Umich Flint, working on his mba. So we're just a Michigan family by far. And Michigan. What made Michigan stand out for me was the reputation where I know I can take this degree. This degree is not going to be just a dba.

Seana Goodson [00:06:03]: It's going to be a DBA from Umich Flint, period. So that's what was important. The reason why I chose to continue on my journey is one, I'm home by myself now. I don't have any kids in my house, but two, in my career, like I said, like, I'm thirsty for knowledge. Like, I want to learn more, I want to do more. And with AI being a big thing now in every industry, I said, okay, I need to go back to school. I need to get my dba. I wanted to stay in business.

Seana Goodson [00:06:30]: Since I already had an mba, it just made more sense for me to get a dba. And I wanted to become a subject matter expert in artificial intelligence and how it's affecting the entertainment industry. So my dissertation in a Nutshell is Gone is about how artificial intelligence is transforming the way studios hire voiceover talent. Because that's one of my big negotiations. I draft and negotiate deals every day for animation. And one of the big sticking points is you're going to steal my talent's voice. Are you going to make a show or they're going to be out of work? So I want to show people it's not necessarily that. It's not going to put people out of work.

Seana Goodson [00:07:09]: It's just going to enhance things for everyone. But with Umich on my back, I mean, I can take this everywhere. I can take this on the road, I can take this for Netflix. I could take this anywhere.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:21]: With every school that you go to and every program that you transitioned into. There are transitions. Going from being an undergraduate student to being a student in the mba, going from being in the entertainment industry for many years and then transitioning back into the classroom again. Transitions. And you found success in graduate school. Talk to me about at the mba, at the DBA level. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey that you've gone through thus far.

Seana Goodson [00:07:57]: To set yourself up for success? One is, you know, you have to be ready. Graduate school is no walk in the park. It's a lot of work. So in order for me to set myself up for success before I even started in any of these graduate level programs, I knew I had to be ready, 100% ready. No distractions. I mean, we all have distractions, but you just have to know how to deal with your distractions and you just have to be ready and then you have to give yourself grace. That's the one thing. And, but like I said, you have to be prepared.

Seana Goodson [00:08:29]: Like, I don't even know how to tell you to be prepared to be in this journey, but just know you need to be ready. Especially when you come to a school like UMich. Be ready. Because all the studies in any graduate level program is going to be rigorous. You know what I mean? It's not going to be simple. No one is going to hold your hand. But just being prepared, that's my only thing I can say is just being prepared and not having any, not letting distractions get in your way because you will have distractions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: When you talk about distractions, what have you had to do to be able to minimize those distractions for yourself that might help others as their step stepping into graduate school.

Seana Goodson [00:09:08]: For me, like, my schedule is busy. Like, I am slammed every single day, but I always carve out time that I know that I need to be focused on school and on my studies. And then as far as, like with my family, with my family, I always tell them, listen, I'm studying just yesterday, prime example. My sister wants to get on the phone and gossip about the housewives. I don't have time for that. It's like, listen, I'm working on my doctor right now. I. I have no time to talk.

Seana Goodson [00:09:36]: So I have to let my family know I can't do some of the things that I used to do. Not right now. I will. One, once I graduate and once I become Dr. Shawna, then I can do stuff. And who knows, I might not be able to then because I'll be doing. I'll be on to the next thing. But it's just being real open and transparent with, if you have a job, being transparent with your job.

Seana Goodson [00:09:58]: Listen, from this hour to this hour, I'm on dnd. Do not disturb me. And I do have a focus time on my calendar because for me, Sometimes I work 18, 20 hours a day. That's no joke. That's real. But people know if my calendar is blocked and if you're not pinging me saying, hey, I see your calendar is blocked for the next three hours. Is this real? Yes, it's real. I can't talk right now.

Seana Goodson [00:10:21]: So I feel like that's one of the things that helped me along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:25]: I love that you said that because I have said that numerous times to many audiences along the way. To be able to say, hey, you do have to have those conversations up front. You need to make sure that as you are starting graduate program that you talk to the people around you. You need them as a support, as a support network. But at the same time, you need to be honest with them about what the reality is and what that experience is that you think the experience is going to be like. But then you have to go back and update them on what the reality actually is. Because you might say up front, I can talk to you every other day. But then as you get into it, you might be like, if I'm lucky, I'm going to be able to do this once a week.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:06]: And because a lot of times your family or your friends think of you as, hey, I can just call shauna. Because we're BFFs and, and we always talk about the housewives. But the reality is they may. They've never been in a DBA program before. They don't know what it's like. And if you've said to them, I can talk to you every other day, they're going to expect you're going to talk to me every other day. And if you don't update that reality with them, they're going to feel slighted in many ways. So always continue the conversation, keep the communication open, and make sure that they are aware of what you're going through and what you need.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Because if they're going to be a support, there's still going to be a support. They just need to know how to support you.

Seana Goodson [00:11:46]: I totally agree with that because I have three adult sons and two granddaughters, and their reality now is do I need to get on mom's calendar? Because they can't talk to me all the time. And if I'm in residency, because we have residency once or twice a month, I am totally blocked out. Like I'm up at 5 o' clock because my first residency is at 6am My time, which is 9 on the east Coast. I can't talk to you. Just like you hear my. The pings going off right now. It's only 7:25 here and people are already pinging me from my office. But, you know, it never ends.

Seana Goodson [00:12:24]: But I have to. You do. You have to be open with your family. You have to be open with your friends. Because I'm a socialite. That's real here. So brunch every Saturday or Sunday. I don't do those anymore.

Seana Goodson [00:12:38]: I can't do them right now. Only time I was able to do one is when we had kind of a break. We had like a. Maybe before I was transitioning to. From one semester to the next. I think I had like a couple of days break. I did go and brunch then, but the brunch I went on was with another UMich student who is also working on her DBA who's graduating next year. And we talked about school, of course.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:04]: And that's another great point, is that as you're going through that graduate program, find those supports that you can have that are part of the program, Whether they're in your year, they're ahead of you, they're behind you. Because those individuals can be individuals that can help you as well in many different ways. Because sometimes you just need to vent to people that really get it, and that is definitely an important piece.

Seana Goodson [00:13:27]: And find your tribe. So my cohort, we have a group chat that we get on them or we vent and then we talk about stuff and then we talk about. Do you understand this assignment? What. What should we be doing here? We do it all day. Like, we. And we all are working professionals. A lot of us are executives. So it's.

Seana Goodson [00:13:46]: We just carve out the time to reach out to each other and that's why we have the group chat. So some people may not be able to answer now, but they might answer at three in the morning, which is six for them and three for me. So you find your tribe and then like some people in your cohort, you might have a closer relationship. Like I have the one person in my. A couple of people in my tribe is Melissa, Lance and Aaron. Like, I talk to those people all the time. We'll get on the phone, we'll talk and. And we might go through assignments together.

Seana Goodson [00:14:16]: But those people become your. Your friends, your tribe. And so some of the, your, Your friends, your real circle, if they understand, they have to understand, like, okay, this isn't about us anymore. Now you have this whole new tribe of all these doctorate students, so you don't have time for us. But you. When you make them understand. Well, I have to talk to people who can. We.

Seana Goodson [00:14:39]: We can bounce ideas off. So my mentor from my first. Is from the 1st DBA Corps. And I talked to her. She's awesome because she's already been through this journey. She's already hit certain walls that I have to hit. So. And then now I'm a mentor at.

Seana Goodson [00:14:56]: In Michigan Flint for people under me, like master's students. So that's a blessing in itself because it makes me feel good to be able to help someone along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:04]: Now you've already been talking about how busy you are. You've got a ton of things happening. Netflix, you have a ton of things happening with your family and friends and a lot of people pulling from your time. For many students, that could lead to burnout. So talk to me about how did you. Do you avoid burnout? Or how do you recover from it when you have felt overwhelmed thus far?

Seana Goodson [00:15:28]: The way to avoid burnout. And I am just a firm believer in this. I meditate. I used to believe in that because I said, oh, that's just bogus. That's an L. A thing like people. Everyone out here meditates. But it's real.

Seana Goodson [00:15:42]: Sometimes I'll just sit in silence and I meditate. And I have these little things right here that I keep. These are. These are crystals that I keep. I just believe in energy and stuff. But. But I do. I meditate and I take time for myself.

Seana Goodson [00:15:56]: And sometimes I'll take. Even if it's only five minutes, you take the time for yourself because you will burn out if you keep on the route that you go. Like for some. Like for instance, someone like me who works a lot. I work a lot. So I'm juggling all of these 50 million things, but then I'm juggling 50 million things from school. And you will hit that wall. And then so you have to.

Seana Goodson [00:16:20]: One step back. You have to give yourself grace. You have to talk to yourself. You have to encourage yourself. Every day I get up, I look in the mirror. I always say, girl, you are everything. You have to do that for yourself. You have to talk to yourself.

Seana Goodson [00:16:34]: But my one thing, yeah, is definitely is meditation. Meditation and green tea. Decaffeinated green Tea. That's my. That helps me from burning out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:43]: As you think about your own graduate school experience and you think about what you experienced along the way, talk to me about a defining moment for yourself or a turning point that really shaped your academic or professional journey.

Seana Goodson [00:16:57]: I'm an overachiever. So in this doctorate program, I'm still a 4.0 GPA. And I set those goals for myself every month. Like people say, oh, don't set yourself up for that. Don't set yourself up to saying, oh, I have to have a 4.0. For me, I do. I have to have a 4.0. It's a goal.

Seana Goodson [00:17:15]: And that. That lets me know I'm working hard. I'm never satisfied. So for me, my turning point was one, was getting into this amazing program. That was a turning point for me. That's everything. Like, if you come in my house right now, my house is Mason blue. True is if I'm looking at everything right here in front of me, I'm on my desk, everything is amazing blue.

Seana Goodson [00:17:36]: So that was a turning point for me in my life, period. Like, just to be able to say, I will be a part of this esteem Michigan went alumni. Do you know how amazing that feels? And just to meet other people within my network who are at Netflix. You know how many University of Michigan people we have there? I mean, tons. So we all are like, oh, just so proud. But the turning point for me is getting into the program. And then even though I'm successful, it makes me feel more successful because I know the journey I'm on. I know what I'm going to do.

Seana Goodson [00:18:13]: I know that I'm going to become a subject matter expert for Michigan. I know that eventually I will teach at Michigan. That's my goal. When this entertainment world is all said and done, when I retire, which I don't know when it's going to be my dream and my goal is to become a part of Michigan faculty. And that's a fact. Everyone knows that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:34]: So as you think of your experience through the MBA and through the DBA thus far, what's something you wish someone had told you before, before you started graduate school?

Seana Goodson [00:18:44]: Take a beat. I mean, I know I'm talking in entertainment terms, but just to slow down, just take a beat. Because you get so excited. And I wish that someone would have told me that. I wish someone would have told me that all through my life, period. But coming into grad school, when you first start, it's like drinking water from a fire hydrant. It's so much Information coming at you at all times. So if you just take a beat and just sit back and just take that time, I wish someone have told me that.

Seana Goodson [00:19:14]: So that's the one thing that I like to tell people, even my mentees. Take a beat, give yourself grace. You don't have to know everything all the time because you're not going to know everything. It's a lot of people out here that will know a lot more than you. For me, I suffer imposter syndrome. That's real. Everywhere I go, I suffer. No matter how high I get, no matter how many degrees I get, I'm still looking around.

Seana Goodson [00:19:40]: It's like, did they make a mistake that they know that they let me in this program? Did they know that they're giving me this job? You go through that. And I wish I would have known about imposter syndrome and how to deal with it, but I'm coping with it now. I'm learning. Like, girl, you're smart. Chill out, you're okay. You'll be fine. So that's the one thing, because I know a lot of people will suffer that, especially coming into grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:03]: Finally, as we finish up today, as you think back to graduate school, at your MBA at the DBA level, and you're thinking about other people that are coming behind you. Beyond what you just said, are there other tips that you might want to offer anyone else that could help them find success in graduate school sooner?

Seana Goodson [00:20:21]: Find your tribe. That's the one key thing. And University of Michigan has so many resources out here. It's so tons of resources. We have caps with Dr. Tookes. We have so many different programs, so many different organizations you can join. But like I said, once you start, like, just find your tribe.

Seana Goodson [00:20:41]: Once you find your tribe, you're going to feel so at ease. You're going to see other people who are going through the same things that you're going through. For us at Umich Flint, there is no excuse because you have so many resources. You have the graduate school office, who is amazing. Teresa, who's over there, amazing. It's so many amazing people. And even if you're doing this online, please find the time to go to the campus, the most beautiful campus that there is, with the river running down the back. Please go.

Seana Goodson [00:21:08]: The library. Beautiful. Just go. And once you do, I think you should touch that soil at least one time. And if you can't, just look at it online. It's absolutely beautiful. And stay in touch with the graduate school office because they are a wealth of knowledge. And a wealth of resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]: Well, Shawna, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you so much for everything that you shared today and for everything that you're doing as you're working toward finishing up that doctorate degree for yourself, that dissertation, and reaching the goals that you've set for yourself. I'm really excited to watch your journey in the future and to be able to see where you end up in the future as well. And I wish you all the best.

Seana Goodson [00:21:49]: Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me and Go Blue!

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:52]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school can be an overwhelming journey, filled with big decisions, self-doubt, and transformation. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Julia Stulock, Director of Recreational Services at the University of Michigan-Flint, to share her unique path from psychology undergraduate to sports management graduate student.

If you're considering grad school, currently navigating your studies, or simply looking for inspiration, Julia's story is a must-hear. She opens up about how her undergraduate experience prepared her well—often in surprising ways—for the academic rigor ahead. As a commuter student at UM-Dearborn, Julia always thought she'd go into research or become a professor, but her campus involvement revealed an entirely new career path in collegiate recreation. This episode underscores the value of staying open to new opportunities and following where your interests lead.

One of the central themes is the importance of choosing the right graduate program. Julia encourages prospective students to consider not just the academic aspects, but also location, assistantship opportunities, and overall fit. Her experience at the University of Connecticut was shaped not only by a robust sports management curriculum but by a graduate assistantship that paid for her school and provided a stipend—a key piece of advice for future applicants.

Listeners will also appreciate Julia's candid discussion about the challenges of transitioning to graduate study: balancing school and work, adjusting to new expectations, and handling imposter syndrome. She highlights how building connections—through clubs, professional organizations, and classmate relationships—is essential for both emotional support and professional development. Her story is a reminder that community matters, and finding your people can make all the difference during tough times.

Julia's advice is both practical and heartfelt: don't be afraid to try something new, take calculated risks, and seek out opportunities, even if they seem outside your comfort zone. Graduate school, she says, is "where I found my passion," and recommends reaching beyond the classroom to maximize your growth.

Tune in to this episode to hear Julia's reflections on how graduate school changed her approach to problem-solving and time management, and learn what she wishes someone had told her before she started. For anyone at any stage of their academic journey, Julia's story is a powerful reminder that success often comes from embracing change, building connections, and following your passion.

Ready for more inspiring stories and essential advice about thriving in graduate school? Listen to the full episode now!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you because it is a journey not no matter where you are in this continuum of looking at graduate school, maybe you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about, should I do this? Maybe I should, maybe I shouldn't, or maybe you've applied, waiting on that applicant that, that decision from your application, or maybe you just got accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are, you are on a true journey. And this journey can go in many different directions. But this podcast is here to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to be able to figure things out ahead of time, to give you some tools for the toolbox to help you figure out how to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:03]: Because that's what we all want. We all want to be successful in this academic journey that you're on. And whether it be from me, from a person in charge of graduate programs, I want all of my graduate students to be successful in this journey that they're pursuing. But personally, you do, too. And that's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share some of their own experiences in going through graduate school that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest with us. Julia Stulock is with us. And Julia is the Director of Recreational Services at the University of Michigan, Flint, and she did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn and then went on from there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: So I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experiences and to have her share that with you. Julia, thanks so much for being here today.

Julia Stulock [00:01:53]: Yeah, really happy to be here and talk through my grad experience. Even though it was a little ways ago, it would be fun to walk down memory lane.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: I'm really excited to be able to talk to you. And I know, as I mentioned, that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Dearborn, and you got a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology there. And at some point, at some point during that undergraduate experience, you made a decision to continue on to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head. That made you decide that grad school was the next step?

Julia Stulock [00:02:27]: I think for me, because as you mentioned psychology major, I actually got my minor in stats. I always thought I was going to go to grad school. Whether it was because I wanted to become a professor or do research was the initial plan. I knew I'd have to get a degree beyond my bachelor's to do that. However, through my involvement on campus, I was involved in a club sport. By about my junior year, I started to realize through talking with other club sport leaders at other institutions, I was like, oh, there is a whole career path here in collegiate recreation that Dearborn doesn't have like a full recreation department. It's part of athletics. So I didn't realize, like, oh, this is like a whole separate department on some campuses.

Julia Stulock [00:03:09]: So it was about halfway through my junior year that I realized I do still want to go to grad school, but I'm going to go for sports management instead of psychology like I originally planned. Because I saw this as an opportunity to keep doing something I love, but I need to get a degree in it to make that connection happen for my path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: So you decided on moving in a different path from psychology and moving a little bit of a different direction. So as you were making that decision for yourself, there are plenty of different programs that are out there in the area that you chose to study. And I'm sure that you went through your own process of exploring different programs, looking out there to determine what was the best fit for you. So talk to me about that process for yourself. I know that you ultimately decided to go to the University of Connecticut for their Master of Arts in Sports management. So talk to me about the process you went through to be able to identify the programs that you were considering and then what made you ultimately decide that the University of Connecticut was the right fit for you?

Julia Stulock [00:04:15]: So I grew up in Michigan. I was a commuter student to Dearborn. A big part, I will admit for my search was I wanted to experience a different place. So I purposely looked only at out of state schools. I did my research online by looking through different rating website to see who had the best sports management degrees out there. There's also recreation management, which isn't as common as sports management. I didn't even know for sure that I wanted to work in collegiate recreation. Honestly, at that point I just knew I wanted to work in sports.

Julia Stulock [00:04:48]: So I thought maybe that would look like an athletic department and CIA sports or possibly recreation. So I just was like, sports Management Recreation looked at the best programs out there. Also visited campuses. I was lucky enough to have friends scattered throughout the country that I could kind of go visit and stay with them and then go visit campus. So I looked anywhere from West Virginia University to University of Texas to a small school in Massachusetts, and I narrowed it down to, like, about my top six or seven to apply to. And as I was doing that, I also learned that there are these things called graduate assistantships or teaching assistantships at some schools. And that's ultimately what helped me decide on the University of Connecticut. I was accepted to a couple other programs, but I was offered a graduate assistantship in club sports at the University of Connecticut.

Julia Stulock [00:05:38]: And they helped pay for my school and also gave me a stipend. That sealed the deal. There was another school I was considering. I'm like, oh, wait, you're going to pay me. I will absolutely go there. And they also had a great program to join for their sports management.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: For every student, as they're transitioning from an undergraduate degree into a graduate degree, there is a definite transition that happens. There's a transition in the way that you're taught, the way that you're. The expectations that faculty have of you. And every person has to go through their own journey to be able to understand what that means for them and how to manage that situation for themselves. So as you were transitioning into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And as you were going through that graduate school experience, what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Julia Stulock [00:06:32]: I think, thankfully, my undergraduate experience, I feel like, really prepared me very well for grad school. That, in fact, I had the same textbook for one of my statistics classes that I used in undergrad, and it was the same one. I'm like, I'm repeating a class here. Hold on. So I was really thankful for that, that Dearborn prepared me really well. And I think some of those changes you see going into grad school, right, is like you have these closer relationships with faculty who have smaller class sizes. And again, because Dearborn, just like Flint, has some of those smaller class sizes, I was already used to talking to faculty, not TAs, full professors. And I wasn't afraid of those conversations.

Julia Stulock [00:07:11]: So I think that really set me up for success, that I didn't feel weird. Like, I had classes with 12 people. Our class size at UConn, my sports law class was small. We had a lot of serious, like, you know, detailed discussions. You couldn't not participate in those. So I think not being afraid to talk to your faculty is a big key to success. From my experience, just doing well in your undergrad classes, paying attention, because you never know when it might overlap or just it's building on top of something in grad school that it might feel like, well, why do I need this? I'm going into sports management. Statistics was required.

Julia Stulock [00:07:49]: There were two required classes in grad school. I still had to take it. So not just assuming you won't need it again was really important. And I think one of the bigger challenges for me transitioning to grad school was that work school balance. Because of my graduate assistantship, I was working a lot of hours there, and that proved to be challenging in terms of making sure I was setting aside enough time, getting enough sleep. I was also not commuting any longer. So, like, being away from home and family, and it was more just about building those bonds so that you would have the support system. So, like, friends joining a club on campus so that I would not just be on my own and I had those support systems in place far away from home was really important because I can actually remember thinking at the end of my first semester, I would not have stayed at UConn unless I had joined the running club there, because that's how I made my friends.

Julia Stulock [00:08:43]: That's how I felt like I belonged somewhere. That was really important because I think I would have left.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:48]: You know, I hear from a lot of graduate students that beyond the. Especially if they go away from home, beyond the separation anxiety and some of the other anxieties that they run into, there's this feeling of, am I meant to be here? Am I good enough? Can I live up to the expectations? Which comes down to what people call the imposter syndrome. And I guess as you think back to your own experience, how did that imposter syndrome or self doubt impact you and how did you handle it?

Julia Stulock [00:09:15]: Yes, there were times, like I mentioned, that first semester was just hard, learning all these new things. I was in student affairs for the first time as well, because I had been an intern in the athletic department at Dearborn, which at the time, I didn't even know anything about student affairs. I don't know if we had a division. I had no idea what I was doing. There was a lot of learning about student development that, like, yeah, it made me go, like, what did I sign up for? Am I supposed to be here? Is this supposed to be this hard? And trying to think of, like, how did I overcome that? I think it was more just like talking with my classmates because a lot of us had graduate assistantships across campus. And it was reassuring to hear that other people had those same thoughts, that it wasn't just me. Well, and everyone can't not belong here, right? There was that common thread of, wow, we feel like this is a lot. And also just hearing sometimes stories of like, wow, I thought I had a hard day, but theirs was harder.

Julia Stulock [00:10:11]: Just commiserating with each other was really helpful. And then overall, just being able to reflect on, like, this is just a part of growth. It is difficult and accepting that that comes with it. And again, those connection pieces of just finding people you connect with, where I felt like I really found my group towards the end of my first year. And that made the second year feel like I belong because I, I just had those connections built in where when you're the new kid, it's really hard to feel connected because you, you. It takes time to build those connections.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:40]: One thing that comes to mind, you know, earlier you talked about when you were looking at different programs, you looked at sports management, you looked at recreation management. You're currently in more of a recreational services, recreation management type of role at the University of Michigan, Flint. If you look back and I know your graduate degree was a, a number of years back, as you mentioned at the beginning, but if you had to do it, would you choose the same program or would you choose a different path? Why or why not?

Julia Stulock [00:11:07]: I would do it all over again. For me, at the time when I was trying to decide between the two paths, it was more out of. I just didn't know enough about either one to decide for sure. And I knew I have two small kids. I knew that I wanted to have a family one day, or at least I hoped I would. And I saw the lack of work life balance, at least from my counterparts and my classmates in the athletic world. The amount of late nights and weekends and the hours like, I mean, not that I had a cakewalk, but man, theirs just seemed a lot more difficult. And I saw that, that just seemed to be a common thread across athletic departments and that didn't fit with what I was looking for.

Julia Stulock [00:11:49]: I still have friends to this day that work in that field and they love it. And you've probably asked them, they wouldn't do anything different either. But for me, I knew I was looking for something that had more of that be balance. That wouldn't mean I was working every night and every weekend. So I would absolutely do it again. I would go to UConn again as well, because I will say I was challenged, but I grew a lot. I learned a lot. It is where, as I mentioned, I was introduced to student affairs and it is where I realized I really had this passion for collegiate recreation and that it could be something for everyone and not just the best of the best of athletes among us.

Julia Stulock [00:12:28]: That it can be for everyone the best of the best and those just looking to have fun or to start a fitness journey. I was lucky enough to be a part of founding a governing body for a club sport which really opened my eyes to that too of just like the impact it can make on student experience and lifelong things too, like finding a partner or lifelong friends. And that's why it still keeps me here, is that I found that passion so I would not change a thing at all. And glad for the experience I had.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: I know you mentioned earlier the importance of that running club as well as some finding that group for yourself. And sometimes students kind of buckle down and they think, especially with being more and more programs being remote from a campus, sometimes it's not always that easy to make those connections. I guess as you think back to the experience that you had and you were in a program that was in person and on a campus, talk to me about that connection and building those connections and the importance of being engaged beyond the classroom and what that did for you as a student.

Julia Stulock [00:13:34]: Me being engaged outside the classroom is what helped me find my passion and my career path. But when thinking specifically about grad school. Right. I mentioned that running club because that was my in person connection. However, it helped me expand outside of our campus because this governing body that I mentioned is called nerca, it's National Intercollegiate Running Club Association. At the time I was the membership coordinator. So I got to talk with club leaders from across across the country about their running clubs and make friends and connections that way and learn about club sports that way. About how all the different ways that their departments run and how you know what type of support they had or didn't have.

Julia Stulock [00:14:15]: And that was equally as important to my development and growth as what I was getting on campus. Because again, I still have those friendships to this day, decades later that are so meaningful in terms of again the impact we're making or just having a friend that you could call up somewhere and say like what do you think about this? Or what are you seeing? Because maybe they work in my field. So those. I think it's more just about finding like you mentioned that connection outside of the classroom. Whether it's a student org on campus, maybe it's volunteering with a group somewhere in your interest in your field, maybe it's reaching out to a professional to pick their brain and you end up finding a great mentor. You have to reach beyond that classroom because I don't know, for me personally, it's just where I felt like I got the most growth. Because as much as you can try to make a project in a class mirror the real world, it's never going to quite get it right fully if it's just a short couple week project. But that's where I got the most meaningful lessons and connections, was through finding those groups and connections outside of the class.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]: You know, as you think about your graduate school experience and what you're doing today, how did graduate school change the way that you think work or approach problems?

Julia Stulock [00:15:32]: I think probably more just on the proactive side because I mentioned that the time management piece I had to learn between balancing school and work was just more than I had experienced before. So it was more this forward thinking and planning and whether it's writing out your assignments in your planner or planning out what you have going on at work so you can be ahead of it. For me, I am a planner. I like to think ahead on things. I want agenda bullet points in advance. And that's not just because I'm trying to get ahead of the curve. It's so that I can have time to problem solve. Because problem solving on the fly might not result in the best end result than if you can go, oh, I have a problem, but I have two weeks to solve it instead of two hours.

Julia Stulock [00:16:17]: So, yeah, it's more that just. I think it's that pre planning and thinking, okay, what do I have coming up? Is there anything I can do now to help myself so that I don't get myself in a pickle?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:28]: And as you think back to grad school and you think back to the journey that you went on throughout your time there, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started grad school?

Julia Stulock [00:16:39]: I really wish someone had explained to me what graduate assistantships were. I really feel like I stumbled into what I got and I was very lucky. Such a good experience. But golly, like what? Oh, I just wish I had understood. I thought they just paid for school. I didn't understand. It came with a stipend until I literally got my offer letter in the mail. I went, oh, they pay me to.

Julia Stulock [00:17:02]: I had no idea. And I think that would have changed. I don't even think I know it would have changed how I approached my search because I realized that there were some programs that there's one in particular, I'll leave them unnamed. I didn't realize that basically you need to have a GA position in order to get into their program, but I didn't know they existed. And they start those search processes so early. Like it could have been like they open applications in November, December. I had no idea. And it would have really helped me because I could have gotten in my.

Julia Stulock [00:17:31]: I thought it was you applied for school and then you applied for the graduate assistantships or the teaching assistantships. So just someone that could have helped explain that that is there and can help potentially pay for grad school and maybe inform where you go if you're willing to go where the money is and you have open doors where you're willing to go, that would have been immensely helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:52]: Finally, as you think back to that entire experience and you think about other people that are considering going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer others beyond what you just said about the graduate assistantship that might help students find success sooner?

Julia Stulock [00:18:08]: Don't be afraid to try something new. I know it sounds cliche, but truly, whether you're going to grad school full time or you're working and going to grad school, you might not have another opportunity to take a risk that doesn't have really far reaching implications if it doesn't work out. So like waiting few years after you have your master's and going like, I really, oh, I really wish I'd try that. I'd have to leave my job to do that. Don't be afraid to take that risk in grad school if you're not sure. Like I was talking about like athletics, recreation, what do I want to do? Right? I started talking to people and realized, oh, maybe that's not what I want to do. Or maybe you apply for an internship to get more information experience in somewhere or to just shadow someone. Don't have to win an internship, just shadow someone.

Julia Stulock [00:18:58]: If you're not sure, take that risk and reaching out or trying something new because maybe you'll find out something isn't for you or maybe you'll find that new passion. You're like, this helps me decide where I want to go. Because the more committed you can be to a goal, I think the sooner you can find success because when you have that full commitment, interest and passion, you can find that trifecta. You'll find success because work will feel less like work and more like fun, hopefully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:26]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing all that you learned in your own experience, and I truly wish you all the best.

Julia Stulock [00:19:34]: Thank you so much. It was my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:36]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning opportunity, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad office at umflint. Eduardo.

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Are you considering grad school or currently on the graduate education journey? The latest episode of "Victors in Grad School" offers a wealth of insightful advice, candid reflections, and actionable tips for students at every stage of their academic careers. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at University of Michigan-Flint, this episode features guest Lucas Langdon, Assistant Dean of Students at the University of Michigan - Flint and a current PhD candidate.

Personal Journeys: Decisions and Mentorship The conversation begins with Lucas Langdon sharing his unique path from undergraduate studies to a thriving career in student affairs and eventually to graduate studies. He emphasizes the importance of mentorship and how key advisors helped him realize his passions could turn into a profession. For first-generation students, like Lucas, pursuing graduate studies can be daunting; strong mentors and professional opportunities, such as temporary staff roles after graduation, can be transformational.

Choosing the Right Program One theme that resonates throughout the episode is the process of selecting a graduate program. Lucas Langdon recalls nearly rushing into a decision due to deadlines but ultimately taking the time to research top programs, visit campuses, and evaluate the fit. The lesson: don't let urgency override intention. Prospective students are encouraged to engage deeply with programs, faculty, and campus environments before making their choice.

Finding Financial and Professional Support The episode also highlights the value of graduate assistantships. Both Langdon and Dr. Christopher Lewis discuss how assistantships—whether in student affairs or other fields—provide not only crucial financial support but also practical experience relevant to students' future careers. Listeners are advised to inquire early about assistantship opportunities, scholarships, and tuition benefits—sometimes available through employers.

Balancing Life and Studies Graduate school often means balancing academic, professional, and personal responsibilities. Lucas Langdon provides honest advice about managing these demands, sharing his own experiences juggling full-time work and doctoral studies. He underscores the necessity of creating boundaries, finding peer support, and maintaining perseverance—even when motivation wavers.

Building Networks and Planning Ahead Finally, listeners learn that faculty and cohort peers become an invaluable professional network. Lucas Langdon advises students to nurture these relationships and focus papers and projects on topics of personal passion, laying the groundwork for future research.

Ready for more inspiring and practical grad school insights? Tune into "Victors in Grad School" for expert advice and personal stories that can help you confidently chart your own path to graduate school success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and. experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to sit down, talk to you, to work with you as you're going through this journey that you're going on, this graduate school journey. And no matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do right now, right now, while you're sitting there listening, that can help you to be better prepared and better successful in this graduate school journey that you're on. You could just be starting to look and thinking about graduate school. You might have applied, you might have gotten accepted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: Maybe you're in graduate school. There are things, no matter where you are in this continuum, that you can learn from others that have gone before you that will help you to be successful in this, this journey. And that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you to help you to learn, to grow, and to be able to get some new tools for your toolbox to help you find success sooner. Today we got another great guest, Lucas Langdon, who's with us. And Lucas is the assistant Dean of students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And Lucas has his own journey of going to graduate school, and he's currently a graduate student right now. So we're gonna be talking to him about this experience and this journey that he went on himself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Lucas, thanks so much.

Lucas Langdon [00:01:47]: Thanks for having me, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: You know, I'm really excited to have you here today. And I know, I love starting these conversations, really making you go back in time, because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. You did your Bachelor of Science in English Liter and Language and also Communication and Theater Arts. And then there was some point in time where you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on. And what I would love for you to do is to take me back in time. Take me back to that moment, that point in time where you said to yourself, I'm not done. I want to continue, and I want to move forward and get that graduate degree.

Lucas Langdon [00:02:32]: So, as you know, my career has been in student affairs, and that started as a student who was very involved. I did something that would be unthinkable today. I delayed my undergraduate graduation by a year because I was involved in so many sort of outside of the classroom experiences that I wasn't ready to give up on. And so I kind of deferred that and during that year of deferment, really struggled with what am I going to do with my life? One of my mentors sort of made the obvious connection for me. You can continue to do the kinds of things that you're really passionate about here as a professional. And so, as luck would have it, there was a temporary staff opening at Eastern about the time I was graduating. And so I was able to jump into a staff role for that first year while I was figuring out what grad school looks like and had the ability to have those mentors who were supervising me there walk me through because I was a first gen student. So the idea of college was challenging, but the idea of graduate school was completely unheard of in my family.

Lucas Langdon [00:03:32]: So having those mentors kind of talk me through, what does a grad school search look like? What are the important things to think about and sort of save me from a couple of maybe hate hasty decisions I could have made there. And then as that first temporary position was coming to an end, another one opened up, and that one sort of filled my time until I started graduate school the next fall at Florida State University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:57]: So, as you just said, you decided to attend Florida State University, and it sounds like you did your due diligence in trying to look at different options and look at different schools and try to decide for yourself what was the best fit for you. Talk to me about that process, what you did to go through that. You mentioned avoiding some mistakes. So maybe talk about some of those possible mistakes you may have made and what made you finally ultimately choose that Florida State was the best.

Lucas Langdon [00:04:27]: So what I was really alluding to with the mistakes is I almost rushed my search. And what I mean by that is I decided a little late in the cycle of things at that time with application deadlines, that I was going to go on this graduate school journey, as you put it. And almost every school's deadline had passed. All of the ones that my mentors were recommending as good student affairs graduate programs had passed, with the exception of one, which I won't name. But I didn't end up going there. I'm sure they're fine, but I had hastily decided, oh, I'll just apply to this, the only one I can apply to, having never been to campus to see it or really know anything about it. And So I sort of wisened up and decided, okay, no, I'm going to wait. This employment opportunity with the 10 position luckily came up.

Lucas Langdon [00:05:07]: That afforded me the ability to do that, to wait a little bit longer and do a graduate school. The search the right way and what the right way looked like for me in my field of higher education, student affairs, was really doing some research into what are the top programs in my field, setting up some visits with them and at the time was willing to travel across the country and start over somewhere else for a little, for two years for graduate school. And so I convinced one of my buddies to do a road trip with me and I did back to back visits at Florida State University of Florida, University of South Carolina. And I think there might have been one more in there and at the time had pretty, pretty high rankings in my graduate program that I was interested in. So I went. I probably made some naive cosmetic assumptions about the schools that now having been in the field for a long time, I maybe wouldn't care so much about. But what it came down to is how I felt when I was there. And the reason that Florida State sort of won that, not that it was a competition, but won the competition for me, what a prize was that when I got there, they made sure that there were folks from the program to talk to me.

Lucas Langdon [00:06:10]: They showed me around. It already felt like they were treating me like a human being and not a number. They did have a really good reputation at the time. I think they, they might have been the number one or number two student affairs program in the country at that time. And they were extremely welcoming of me. Now what? The other piece I didn't know that I wish I had was about what graduate assistantships were all about. And this might be buried in your question somewhere, but so I didn't initially know that that was a thing you have to plan for and apply for in advance and all that. So when I went to, I forget if it was a visit day or if it was like an orientation.

Lucas Langdon [00:06:42]: There just happened to be a vacancy in one. And so somebody had got a different role and moved on or something. And I, I got the assistantship and that paid for my room and board, my tuition, working for housing, not in a live in position the first year, but that was huge financially for me to be able to take a graduate assistantship which I knew nothing about, but to take this job that they told me would pay for all of this stuff and give me practical experience while I was doing the academic side of the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: And one thing I'll. I'll mention to you that that are listening about graduate assistantships is that not every program requires an assist assistantship. Sometimes they do. So like the program that Lucas is talking about. His program required that students had assistantships, and that's a part of the program. But there are other programs that that's not the case. There may be ones that are available that you can apply for, but you need to do your research into that. Some assistantships can be full time, some assistantships can be part time, and the benefits can vary vastly based on campus and what you're doing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:53]: So you do have to do that research to be able to look into that, to make sure you understand what it is, what you have to do to apply and what you have to do to be considered. But don't automatically assume that an assistantship is going to be waiting for you, because at the campus that you choose to go to, there may not be assistantships, but there may be scholarships or other opportunities too. So you think you choose to.

Lucas Langdon [00:08:13]: And those are the right questions to ask Chris, that I didn't know to ask, which is, are they the same timeline for application for both of them? Are they different timelines is like you said, is it? Everybody gets one if you get into the program. And as the market for graduate students in student affairs has shifted, some of those requirements have shifted. So at Florida State at the time, you weren't going to be probably a graduate assistant in a student affairs office if you weren't in the program for student affairs. But I know a lot of schools now, they need graduate students, and so they're a little less picky about which field you're studying while you're there. If you have the time to commit to the work of the assistantship, you might still be able to pull that off even if you're not going into higher education, which opens up a lot more opportunities for folks who might otherwise basically be looking at is there a teaching assistant job or a research assistant job? And that's really all that you used to be able to pick from. But now there's all kinds of offices. As the field of higher education manages financial difficulties for lots of reasons, the number of professional staff going down in some cases means they might be more willing to take on more graduate assistants do the work. So I would encourage anyone, if your life will fit a graduate assistantship role financially and experientially.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:26]: It's really a great opportunity now as any student moves into a graduate program. Actually, no, I want to ask another question first. Now, I also mentioned you're a current graduate student now, and I know that after a number of years of working, you decided to continue your education and you decided to work work on a PhD and you're working on that right now. So same question. Talk to me about that point in time. What made you decide that you wanted to take that step at that point in your career to go back to school after working for a While on a PhD and you, you ended up choosing to attend Eastern Michigan University? Same question. Why did you decide to attend Eastern University?

Lucas Langdon [00:10:08]: My PhD question has a lot to do with sort of the ceiling for advancement in my career. And so I've been in this program now for over 10 years. Like I'm going to have to file an extension to be able to graduate for a couple of reasons that sort of, you know, Covid and some things sort of delayed that. But I had mentors telling me, you got to get the PhD. You're working at a university that will pay for. I was working at Eastern as at the time, as a director of campus Life. So Eastern would pay the tuition part of the bill for that, which amounted to, I don't know, 20, $25,000 worth of an education that I didn't have to pay for doesn't mean it was free. I had to pay all kinds of fees that I'm not working there.

Lucas Langdon [00:10:45]: I obviously pay for the credits, but it was a huge chunk of financial burden that I didn't have because I worked there. So if you can get a job at the place where you want to study, that's often a tuition benefit comes along with that. So at the time, I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do next, but I knew it would be a step up, hopefully in my career. And I was looking at vice presidents, student affairs jobs, or sociovi presidents, or in this case, assistant in a student's jobs. And I knew that to be competitive in the field, I was going to need to have that credential under my belt to be operating at a higher level of leadership at a higher education institution. The credential is important, especially on the academic side, to be able to be considered a colleague by academic peers, being able to say, yes, I've gone through the same academic, can we call it academic hazing that you've gone through. I've earned this. I know my stuff.

Lucas Langdon [00:11:32]: So all of those things, would I do it again? I don't know. It depends on what day you ask me and what part of the stress of the PhD program I'm in. But I had all of those mentors and sort of the career path telling me, you probably need to do this, so you might as well start now. And I'll also add that when I worked for five years at an institution in Kentucky, that they didn't have a PhD program, but they had an MBA program that I could have done for free twice in the time that I was there. I didn't think I was going to be there that long, but I liked it. And I ended up staying. And I regretted not taking advantage of that benefit of education. Could have just had that extra credential and that knowledge.

Lucas Langdon [00:12:06]: And so when I got to Eastern, they had the PhD program. And I thought, I can't make the same mistake twice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:12]: So true. And a lot of times when individuals are working at any type of company, one of the things that sometimes students don't look into is going to that HR office and saying, do you have an education benefit? It's always a great place to go and ask. It doesn't hurt to go in and just ask the question. They could say no, they could say yes. But always look at the fine print. Make sure you know what you're signing and make sure you know what the hooks are. Because sometimes there are hooks to the financial aspects to that as well. But it's always a possible financial possibility for you as a student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:50]: As you're thinking about graduate education now, Lucas, as you transitioned into your master's degree, into your doctorate degree, there are transitions that you go through. Now you went from undergrad into a graduate program, and there's a transition there because the way you're taught as an undergraduate student is different than the way you're taught in the expectations that faculty have of you as a master's student. But then going from work into a PhD student, again, different way, different way of being challenged, different way of looking at things. So think to those transitions. You were able to find success in your master's degree, you've been able to be successful in your PhD degree. And as you found success in graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into the program, and what have you had to do to maintain that success throughout the steps, throughout the program?

Lucas Langdon [00:13:56]: So start by saying, I don't think I transitioned particularly effectively or intentionally into a master's program, because again, I had no idea. To me, this just felt like, like the next year of college. But what I came to learn very quickly is that even more than undergraduate, the things that were going to be Important to my success were the peer network in my classes and the faculty relationships, which are important in undergrad, but even more so in the master's work. So that transition was initially maybe a little rocky. Again, I sort of picked up and moved to a different part of the country. So I knew no one there, knew nothing about this thing I had decided to jump into. But luckily, because I had that assistantship role on campus, that put me into a network of other graduates, graduate assistants who would be taking classes with me. And we're also having parallel sort of job experiences that, that could sort of bond us together as well.

Lucas Langdon [00:14:47]: And if you know anything about working in housing, you have a lot of weird things that happen when you're running residence halls. So could have got those things to bond over. And so creating that social network there, which I was a little slow to develop because I just didn't know how important it was going to be, that became monumentally important. And then also the people who are in your program with you and your faculty become your initial network professionally. So I always tell students, even the undergradu level, particularly your major faculty, that's your first network. And so they are the ones who know the field you want to enter. They're your first recommendations. More importantly, they are your first connections when it comes time to get a job.

Lucas Langdon [00:15:22]: And so those two things and then sort of the expectation, at least at that time at Florida State was if you're here, you are also participating in sort of a national level of professional development. Right. And so being involved in our national profession professional conference, my program hosted at the time a national professional conference. So we were sort of volun told we were going to be involved as volunteers at this thing and helping out, which turned out to be a remarkable experience. And I got to meet some of the scholars in my field who had come to this conference. Right. And so taking those opportunities, I think helped. Back to your transition question.

Lucas Langdon [00:15:56]: Helped transition mentally to oh, this is kind of professional. Like I'm not quite a professional yet, I'm a paraprofessional, but I have to start thinking like one. And so those kind of experiences help put you in the mindset of that and then the transition to the PhD. I will tell you, it is so much easier to be a student when all you're doing doing is be a student and maybe the graduate assistant or you know, a part time job on the side, but as a full time professional trying to take classes. Been out of the habit for a while too. Right. So that's another thing I would say to students, thinking about any of these transitions is when to do it is important. As I had been so far out of my master's program by the time that I started the PhD that I had forgotten how to student, my study skills, the ability to sit down and read academic materials.

Lucas Langdon [00:16:40]: Like I had to dust off all of those skill sets. The flip side of that is because I had waited a while. I have real world experience to draw knowledge from when I'm in those classes, having those discussions, so it meant more. And so when in my field, when students ask me, and I think this is really specific to higher education, but maybe some other fields ask me if they, when they should do these things, I would say wait a little while so you've got some professional experience. And then further, I get into this program, wait a while to see. Is this something you really need to get to the goal that you have? Because if it is, great. If it's not, it's a whole lot of investment in time and energy and tears and anxiety attacks and whatever else comes with, with doing. It's a big lift to do a PhD.

Lucas Langdon [00:17:23]: The coursework other than the research coursework, not terribly harder than master's work if you can work in groups and you can read and you can synthesize information, do a lit review here and there, those sorts of things. But when you get to the self directed research parts of that, it is a lot more than just writing papers as an English major in college. So that transition was, was a little rocky. I took too many classes at first, was trying to max out the amount of credits that I could take so I could get through it. And then maybe two semesters in, I realized, no, I have to do this one at a time. I just for me at that time, with everything in my life, I had to do just one class at a time. But I worked through it and checked them off one by one.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:00]: Well, a lot of graduate students and individuals that are looking to be graduate students are balancing a lot of things. They may be working, they may have families, they may have other responsibilities, they're doing other things along with, with this. Talk to me about balance and what you had to do. And maybe it was more so balancing things at the PhD level than when you were a Master's student. But even now, as you have been a PhD student, what have you had to do to balance school, work, family, any other personal responsibilities while you've been trying to be a student as well?

Lucas Langdon [00:18:38]: Yeah. So great question. I don't really even think the concept of balance occurred to me in my master's program because it was my, my job and my. Yeah, everything all sort of bundled into one. And then my second year of the program, I moved from an assistantship that wasn't live in to a live in graduate hall director position. And so I was literally living where I worked and everything just kind of spilled over. Balance was probably awful, right? Like just in retrospect, there were probably no boundaries at all and I probably worked way more hours than I should have. But it also felt fine because I was young and I had the energy.

Lucas Langdon [00:19:09]: When you get later in life and you're doing the PhD, that balance is a little harder. And I think, like I said, sort of figuring out what I could take on each semester was an important realization that I had what my capacity was. I don't have kids, so I am amazed by folks who balance that in addition to. I sort of look at, in awe at those folks because that's. And there's a whole bunch of them in my program. Some of them finished before I did and did a great job of it. But when I was coming in, they'd sort of tell you, don't take a new job, don't get married, don't make any big life decisions that are going to add because. And of course you have to, right? Because life happens whether you want it to or not.

Lucas Langdon [00:19:45]: But they sort of warn you that balance is going to be a problem. What I didn't take into was when I got to the stage where I'm mostly self directed, right? Like that's the. One of the huge differences, I think, between undergrad and graduate work and definitely between Master's and PhD is the degree of autonomy you have to move yourself forward. And the lack of people sort of kicking you if you're, if you're behind you get a good chair and they're going to encourage you. But really it's your timeline. And so I maybe let the balance shift too far in the other direction for a while with that and have just maybe in the last year really decided, okay, I do need to sacrifice part of my weekend every week or every other week just has to be devoted to this so that I can finish this thing. And that's hard. Again, when you're used to, you have a workday that goes sometimes till 6, 7, 8 o' clock if you work in my field and then you go home and like the last thing I want to do is look at a computer screen and try to write right now.

Lucas Langdon [00:20:41]: But at some point you just have to suck it up and do it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:44]: So as you think back to the opportunities that you've had both at the master's level, at the doctorate level, and as you think about this entirety of your graduate education and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school and thinking about possibly taking that jump into becoming a graduate student themselves, what are some tips that you might offer them as they consider graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Lucas Langdon [00:21:10]: I mean, I'll briefly summarize some of the ones I've already mentioned, which are if you can find an assistantship, it's a great opportunity. Your faculty or your first network, make sure to get to know the folks in your cohort because they are also part of that network, but more importantly, they are going through it with you. So that your support system. It also helps to figure out which ones are bright enough to be in the groups when you got to do group work, because that is in most programs, probably a part of what you're going to have to do. And one of the things that luckily somebody did tell me early on, if you can, if there's something you're really passionate about in your field, anytime you get the choice of what you're going to study, do that thing and save all that research. And so I did that in my master's program. And so when I started my PhD, I didn't know exactly what my dissertation was going to be on, but I knew the area and I had, well, at that time you had printed copies of things. I had a big box of printed articles ready to go.

Lucas Langdon [00:22:00]: I needed to find some updated ones, but something to start me off. And so throughout the PhD program too, whenever I had the opportunity for my self directed work in a class to be what I wanted it to be, it was all moving towards the same focus topic so that I wasn't duplicating my efforts later on, if that makes sense. So anytime you can do that, think ahead to, to where you might need that. Save everything. If you know you're going to continue the education. Save everything. You never know what going to go back. Now when I get this one, I am done.

Lucas Langdon [00:22:29]: No more classes. So there'll be a big bonfire. But up until here, I've got everything that I've ever done academically in my graduate work and it has helped me tremendously. I think I already mentioned the faculty relationships, but I'll say that one again, just because some of the most interesting conversations I had in my master's program were with the faculty there. Most of them have retired now, obviously, because that was a long time ago. But I got to work with some of the minds that were leading my field. And so getting to know what your faculty's interests are, what their research is, if you can partner with them on that. For me, it ended up being helping at those conferences.

Lucas Langdon [00:23:02]: But if I was a graduate student, work in the sciences, there might be some really cool research you could get your hands on. Working with a faculty member. There might be something you get to publish with a faculty member in any number of fields. So don't sleep on that relationship. It can be really valuable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:15]: I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing all of these amazing tips with us today. And I wish you the best as you continue your own graduate education. And I know you're going to make it. You're going to get there, you're going to finish this up and get past what's called abd, everyone. Abd. You don't want to stay there when you're working on your doctorate. So he's working forward, he's going to get this done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:39]: And next time we talk to him, he's going to be Dr. Langdon. So, so soon to be Dr. Langdon. Thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Lucas Langdon [00:23:53]: Thank you, sir. Appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:54]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at FlintGradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Effective communication isn't just a buzzword; it's a core skill for success in graduate school and in life. In the latest Victors in Grad School episode, "Communicating Your Needs with Confidence," Dr. Christopher Lewis and Reilly Chabie tackle a challenge every grad student encounters: advocating for yourself and expressing what you truly need to thrive.

Reilly Chabie, a regular contributor, dives deep into why communication matters—not only academically but across every dimension of wellness. She introduces listeners to the "balancing act" every student faces, emphasizing the Eight Dimensions of Wellness (emotional, environmental, physical, etc.) and how imbalances can directly impact our ability to communicate effectively.

Stress, a common companion for grad students, gets special attention. Reilly details how physical, emotional, and cognitive symptoms of stress can interfere with clear communication—reminding us that a little stress is normal, but chronic stress can sow confusion and erode confidence. Knowing yourself and recognizing when stress is impacting your communication is the first step toward improvement.

The podcast unpacks common barriers to effective communication. From emotional dysregulation and lack of trust, to power dynamics, cultural differences, imposter syndrome, and assumptions, Reilly paints a honest picture of challenges students face daily. She references "The Four Horsemen" communication pitfalls (criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling), illustrating why learning new healthy habits is vital.

Listeners are guided through the spectrum of communication styles—passive, aggressive, passive-aggressive, and assertive. The goal? To build assertive communication skills that foster respectful dialogue and collaborative problem-solving. Reilly provides actionable tips: plan ahead, create the right environment for conversations, use "I" statements, pay attention to nonverbal cues, and actively listen—not just talk.

Perhaps most compelling is the discussion around boundaries. Setting and communicating personal limits is crucial to self-advocacy and maintaining healthy relationships in grad school.

If you're navigating group projects, research collaboration, or simply balancing multiple life roles, this episode is packed with insights and practical advice. Whether you're a new student or a seasoned grad, you'll find wisdom that applies beyond the classroom.

Ready to advocate for yourself and build confidence in your communication? Listen to this episode and start your journey toward more effective, fulfilling conversations—both in and outside grad school.

Looking for actionable communication resources? Don't miss this episode—you'll be glad you did!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:03]: We have conversations with students, alumni and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello and welcome. Thanks so much for being here today. I'm Dr. Lewis, the director of graduate programs here at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're here today because today we're going to be talking about a really important topic. We're going to be talking about about the importance of communicating and advocating for yourself. Because as a graduate student, you definitely have to be able to advocate for yourself and you gotta be able to talk to people and tell people what you need to be able to be successful in this graduate school journey that you're on. And today we got a great guest with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:51]: Riley Chaby is with us again. And I'm really excited to have Riley here today to talk about this really important topic with you. So I'm going to turn it over to her. Riley, thanks so much for being here today.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:02]: Absolutely. Thank you so much for the introduction, Dr. Lewis. I appreciate it. And as Dr. Lewis mentioned, communicating your needs is a crucial part of not only being a graduate student, but also just kind of existing in the world. So I hope today's presentation is helpful in all contexts of your life. To kind of get started, we'll go over a brief overview as to what you can expect.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:26]: We're going to talk a little bit about something I like to call the Balancing act of just being a Graduate Student. That'll come up here shortly. I'm going to talk about why does communication matter? Just kind of brief things that are related to you as a graduate student, but also just why communication matters in the grand scheme of life. We're going to talk about some barriers that we might experience for effective communication. And then we're going to learn how to communicate with confidence, some tips, tricks, things to kind of consider in order to navigate these challenges. All right. It would not be a CAPS presentation if we didn't talk a little bit about the eight dimensions of wellness. If you've ever seen any of my presentations before, you have definitely seen me talk about these dimensions.

Reilly Chabie [00:02:18]: And interestingly enough, most of U of M Flint's Division of Student affairs programming focuses and aims to provide supports that relate to these eight dimensions of wellness, which interest. Interestingly enough, my conversation today does relate to the eight dimensions of wellness. So very briefly, the eight dimensions of wellness essentially creates a visual representation of all of the aspects that make us up as a person. So we all have. And kind of looking at the wheel on my screen Here we all have emotional connections, we have environmental connections, physical connections, so on and so forth. And all of these areas require our attention at any given point during our day to day functioning. That kind of leads into this balancing act that while you're functioning as a graduate student, you are absolutely trying to balance all of these dimensions in a way that makes you kind of feel fulfilled, makes you feel like you're achieving the things that you want to achieve, and ultimately you utilize these to kind of guide your everyday decisions. Now, a big part of this is that if any of these dimensions are feeling a little out of whack or we feel like we're not engaging in them as much as we would like to, that does disrupt our general functioning, which can very easily lead to a lot of different frustrations and truthfully plays a large role into why we struggle with communicating the things that we need.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:59]: Right. That I might not know that I'm physically hurting until I really think about it. It. And if I don't take care of that physical nature, I might be more irritable or you know, struggling in a particular area and having a hard time communicating that. So it's helpful to kind of put this into context with our communication patterns and this knowledge will kind of help us. What's the right word? It's going to help us identify what needs we actually have and really play into the types of communications that we need to provide. So kind of keep that in mind as we move forward here. I also want to touch a little bit on stress symptoms specifically, because if we're considering how the eight dimensions of wellness allow us to function, and when one of them isn't being focused on as much or is struggling in some context, we ultimately will experience some level of stre.

Reilly Chabie [00:05:03]: And the symptoms and kind of definitions on your screen here also help us to see when our communication is not being effective. Right. That if we're not communicating as deeply or as importantly as we'd like to be, we might experience chronic stress. So a brief definition of stress. This is our physical, emotional and cognitive reactions to certain demands, threats, or just changes in our daily routines. And I bet you anything as a graduate student, you have a lot of changes going on on your day to day experience. Whether you're in classes, going to work, studying, maybe taking care of kiddos, just trying to navigate all of these different roles, you absolutely are going to have differences and changes in your routine when these things happen, though, we might experience some level of stress. I think it's important to note that general levels of Stress or are actually pretty okay.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:05]: Stress can be a really big motivating factor in how we navigate the world and ultimately leads to kind of doing our best work. Sometimes that, you know, for example, if I was stressed about giving this presentation, I might work really hard to provide you the best material. Right. And make sure that I'm providing things that would be helpful for this. But the issue becomes when we experience these stress system, excuse me, symptoms intensely and chronically. So it's not just a here and there experience, but more so it's every day or every other day, or it's so intense that we feel like we can't function in a way that helps us navigate the world. So some of the things that you want to look out for are your physical symptoms. So those could be sleeping problems, muscle aches, headaches, frequent colds.

Reilly Chabie [00:07:02]: Our immune system is affected by our stress levels or increased heart rate. Emotionally, you might notice some anxiety, depression, loneliness, low self esteem. And then cognitively or kind of in our mind, we might experience memory concerns, worrying about things constantly, difficulties concentrating, and possibly poor judgment and impulse control. This one in particular will relate to our communication patterns in just a second. So just kind of keep that in mind as we move forward here. So with some of those stressors in mind, I think it's helpful to kind of consider how communication really plays into our experience and why it's important that we're experiencing these things. So communication is a fundamental component of relationship building. I mean, it's kind of the center of our universe, right? We have to communicate in order to navigate these things.

Reilly Chabie [00:08:07]: Having effective communication or working on your communication will reduce your overall stress, which relates to our previous slide, talking through some of those stressful things. Having effective communication will absolutely help your groups, people that you're communicating with, or just general organizations work more cohesively and lead to better productivity, which absolutely plays a role in your life as a graduate student. If you're doing group projects, doing research, working in a lab, whatever it might be, it also helps to build your confidence and it helps you advocate and it ultimately helps you build trust with the people that you're working with or engaging with in a way that really makes life feel more fulfilling. You know, the more that you practice your communication skills and the more you work toward identifying the things that you need to communicate, the easier it is, no matter what setting you're in. And then lastly, it does reduce levels of conflict, and I'm talking about conflict in all of the different areas of your life, whether that's in romantic Relationships, friendships, co worker relationships, anything like that. It prevents misunderstandings due to lack of clarity or miscommunications in some way. So if we're effectively communicating, we're absolutely moving in the right direction. Keep these things in mind as we navigate the skills that we're going to talk about later, because those skills are what we practice so that we can gain these effective communication skills.

Reilly Chabie [00:09:45]: Let's shift a little bit into communication barriers. Obviously, communication is not just a simple thing that we do every single day. In some ways it is. For example, I'm communicating with you right now, and this is relatively simple, but it's not always gonna look that way. And I think it's helpful to go through some of the barriers or things to kind of consider that might be affecting the way that we navigate these conversations. So I want you to take a moment and I'll briefly pause for you to think about this. I want you to think about what some of your barriers are to effective communication, because there's lots of them. There's no perfect list, but take a second and just kind of reflect on what barriers you foresee in your day to day.

Reilly Chabie [00:10:40]: Now, as you think about those things, I'm going to list off a few and talk through some of my thought process around struggles with communication. One big area of communication barriers is our emotional dysregulation. So take a second and think of a time when you were feeling really overwhelmed. Maybe you were experiencing stress, maybe something was really confusing to you and you started to feel really irritated. And maybe you were asking yourself, why am I even bothered by this? What's going on in my life where I'm feeling this frustrated? Right? Those things are starting to come up in your mind. This might lead to heightened emotional states. Maybe we're feeling extra angry or extra sad, or really struggling to kind of navigate this area of our life. And that type of emotional dysregulation absolutely makes it difficult to be clear, concise, and communicate effectively.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:42]: Sometimes we say things in the heat of the moment that we really don't mean, or we end up crying during a conversation and feel like we can't get a word out, or our anger is so hard that we prevent other people from adding to the conversation. All of these different things relate to emotions, dysregulation, and we want to kind of keep that in mind as we navigate these challenges. We're also going to want to consider our locations or spaces. There are definitely some places that are not conducive to a good conversation. For example, I'm not going to have a conversation about how my friend upset me the other day at a really loud concert. That doesn't really make any sense. So we're going to want to consider some of the best places to have these conversations and consider how that plays into the context of the conversation. Trust or distrust absolutely plays a role here.

Reilly Chabie [00:12:41]: That if you trust somebody, you're probably going to be more likely to be vulnerable and talk about things that are bothering you or advocate for your needs. If you're not so trusting or you're struggling to see how a person can be trustworthy, we might be more restricted in terms of what we want to talk about, which might lead to miscommunication, it might lead to resentment. A lot of detriments happen when we don't trust the people that we're talking to. So keep that in mind too. That effective communication works really well with people we trust. So that means we need to build trust by practicing communication skills. It's kind of a reciprocal relationship. We also want to consider some power dynamics here.

Reilly Chabie [00:13:27]: As a graduate student, you might be working with a boss or a professor or other people that maybe kind of are above you in terms of your hierarchy at your work or in school. And then you might also have your own employees or other people that you're maybe supervising, et cetera. We want to make sure that based on these power dynamics, we're effectively communicating without increasing that awareness of the power differential. That, yes, there's a reason that we have that power differential, but that can make things more or less uncomfortable. When trying to communicate something. It might be difficult to communicate to a professor about something, or it might be really easy to talk to a supervisee about something. So trying to navigate it based off of that, we also might want to consider cultural differences. Obviously, the way that I communicate is going to be much different than somebody in a different cultural background, maybe somebody who speaks a different language than I do.

Reilly Chabie [00:14:31]: We really want to have that be part of our lens when we're communicating. We don't want to be disruptive or assume that people are going to communicate the same way with us, especially based on those cultural differences. So being mindful of that or noticing how it might affect the receiving end of that, that me saying something to somebody might be misinterpreted based on those cultures. Cultural differences. Imposter syndrome also plays a role in this. And what I mean by imposter syndrome is it relates to our confidence or our feelings about whether or not we can communicate that perhaps we feel like we're not able to speak up because we feel like we don't know what we're talking about. Or we assume people are kind of viewing us in a way where we don't belong. So we end up not communicating concerns and kind of leading to some of those stressful symptoms.

Reilly Chabie [00:15:28]: So that absolutely can play a role. But the hope through this presentation is that we build some skills that can kind of change that aspect. Information overload is a big barrier to communication. Obviously, when we're taking in a lot of information, we have to process all of that. Like our brain has to work through that information and then that stimulus in order to figure out how to respond or figure out how that applies to our experience. So if there's a lot coming at us, for example, in a lecture or in another format, we might have a hard time synthesizing those thoughts and communicating in a way that's effective, that's clear. Or we just might be confused as to what we're talking about in the first place. So that can absolutely be a barrier.

Reilly Chabie [00:16:14]: And we kind of have to navigate that by seeking clarification or moving through it differently. Misunderstandings or miscommunications are a big piece to communication barriers. That is, if somebody is regularly misunderstanding you or you feel like there's been a miscommunication, a lot of that relates to clarity and conciseness. Or sometimes people feel like they have to kind of navigate these conversations in a filtered way where they're only taking bits and pieces of what you're saying and kind of misconstruing it. So misunderstandings are very, very common, but they absolutely can contribute to the difficulties here. And then the last one that I want to touch base on are assumptions. We can't assume that people know what we're talking about, right? We have to communicate things clearly. And even then, there still might be some difficulties.

Reilly Chabie [00:17:12]: So something that we want to consider here is that no matter how we're communicating or no matter what we think of other people or doing, doing something related to a conversation, we need to be prepared for any assumptions we might hold, and also the assumptions they might hold about us. And nobody can read your mind, right? So we don't want to assume that they're just going to get it right away or that without communicating that they're going to help you in the way that you need. So assumptions definitely play a role here. And once again, not an exhaustive list of barriers, but a really good overview of things that we might be experiencing. I also want to talk about a very unique type of communication barrier. So Gottman, both Julie and John, they're a married couple. They created a type of couples therapy that focuses on just communication. Right.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:10]: And one thing that I really loved about what they provided in this training for other therapists is something called the Four Horsemen. Now, I'm not talking about the four Horsemen of the apocalypse. I know that's really common, but I'm actually talking about the Four Horsemen in terms of communication patterns. Gottman noted that there are four types. There's criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Now, their work relates mostly with couples, but this can apply in a variety of contexts. So based off of what you see on your screen here, criticism, as the name implies, is criticizing one's character. You know, telling them that they're selfish doing, criticizing the things that they're doing, which is much different than setting a complaint.

Reilly Chabie [00:19:01]: There's contempt, which is that true level of disrespect where you're name calling with the ultimate goal of making a person feel worthless. There's defensiveness, which is a response to the criticism, where we feel wrongly accused so we might try to defend ourselves and only focus on that. And then there's stonewalling, which is a response to that very negative contempt where individuals will shut down, they will withdraw, they'll feel numb, and they just won't communicate at all. So these are also barriers to communication. And if we're experiencing any level of them, utilizing the skills we'll talk about later will kind of counteract that. But a big part of this is that it takes a lot of practice. Gottman notes that these barriers are kind of rooted in our previous experiences. So we kind of have to unlearn them and learn new things in order to navigate it.

Reilly Chabie [00:20:01]: So I thought I would bring that in because I think it's kind of an interesting message mix to some of the other barriers. And I feel like these represent a good combination of what couples or friends or other relationships might be experiencing. So other versions of communication barriers. So we've talked about all of the things that ultimately can keep us from communicating effectively. We've also talked about maybe some of the stressful experiences that might coincide with limited conversations or limited communication experiences. I think it's really helpful to consider what types of communications are we actually looking at here when thinking of communication. I'm thinking of four particular types of. And we're going to focus mostly on the verbal and nonverbal.

Reilly Chabie [00:21:04]: But these definitely apply to written and visual communication types as well. But verbal, obviously, is about spoken words, so that's what I'm communicating with you right now. We also have non verbal, which most people know as our body language, our facial expressions, and ultimately this nonverbal communication is what's supporting the verbal communication. So for example, all of my hand gestures perhaps are emphasizing the spoken words that I'm talking about here today. I'll also note another key part of nonverbal which relates to our communication skills are the concepts of our tone. So if we're, you know, having an attitude, for example, or talking maybe really angrily or really loud, that can kind of relate to how people receive our communication and it might also change the way we feel about that communication. So it's kind of a challenge there. Written communication includes emails, texts, social media posts and requires a bit of like that spelling and grammar consideration.

Reilly Chabie [00:22:20]: So as a grad student, I bet you anything you're sending lots of emails or texting out to groups or maybe posting on social media. And it matters how we communicate and our verbal and nonverbal play into this as well, especially if we're posting videos and those types of things. We also have visual communication, which is through like images, graphs or symbols. So if you've ever seen a presentation where they have like bar graphs or things like that, that plays into our communication as well because it's a way for us to interpret information. So like I said, we're going to focus mostly on the verbal and the nonverbal piece here. But these do apply to especially written communication, even though we might not be able to have non verbals apply to our written communication. So getting into kind of the nitty gritty of communication here. So thinking about our verbal communication and honestly our nonverbal as well, we want to look at the four styles of communication which as I was doing research for this, I felt like this was kind of interesting as I think sometimes we will kind of fall in all of these categories in some way, or maybe we're very much focused in one area as opposed to another.

Reilly Chabie [00:23:46]: It just kind of depends, right? So something that we want to kind of consider here are the passive aggressive, the combination which is the passive aggressive and the assertive communication styles. So starting with the left hand side with our passive communication styles, individuals who are passively communicating have a really hard time saying no. They're often apologetic, saying sorry for multiple things, kind of feeling more shy or inward. They struggle to speak up in a variety of contexts and are often agreeable even when something doesn't sit right with them. So they're very much kind of taking a backseat to conversations and navigating the world. And this is actually the type of communication where we are going to experience the most miscommunication errors. Simply because people who are passively communicating are often not sharing their feelings, they're not speaking up in these contexts. So we have to kind of consider that in this process here too.

Reilly Chabie [00:24:53]: Interestingly enough, passive communication styles relate heavily to our nonverbal communication. So they might be more than likely communicating in a way that is non verbal, Whether that's through hand gestures, maybe it's through their posture, maybe you're seeing limited eye contact, things like that. That's the type of passive communication that we might see from somebody in this style. Shifting gears into the aggressive side of things, this one is a stark difference to the passive communicator. Aggressive communicators have zero concerns about communicating their issues, their feelings, their thoughts, and all of the struggles that they have. In fact, they are likely to be loud, they have angry tones in terms of their nonverbal communication. They might have some intense eye contact, and they just genuinely don't care about what's going on around them. They tend to interrupt people.

Reilly Chabie [00:25:59]: They might have some intense eye contact, they might be insulting. Just very dominant in this area. This one can be challenging to navigate both from the communicator side of things, but also the person receiving. But a good thing to kind of keep in mind here is that when somebody is kind of being aggressive toward us in this communication style, we once again can use our communication style through calmness or through just kind of stability to kind of navigate that challenge. Shifting into the passive aggressive. This is a combination of the passive and the aggressive. As the name implies, what's distinct about this is that individuals in this category are passive outwardly, meaning they're going to be very agreeable. They're gonna kind of seem content on the outside.

Reilly Chabie [00:27:01]: They're not necessarily going to be fully communicating, but they might add bits and pieces there. So kind of level outwardly, but they have aggressive motivations when it comes to their actions, right? So, for example, somebody might outwardly be very agreeable, say, yep, that sounds like a good idea, but their actions say otherwise. When they start to maybe do things inappropriately per what was agreed upon, they often can be seen as manipulating the situations based off of this passive aggressive technique. And we kind of struggle with this one because this is the communication style that often uses sarcasm or the silent treatment, which can kind of elicit some really uncomfortable feelings for the person that's trying to communicate with them. So once again, A decent combination between the two, but we're going to notice some of those differences, especially in terms of their actions. And then lastly, the most ideal approach for communication is the assertive approach. So this creates a balance between being able to kind of express your thoughts in a take charge type of way, while also creating a very safe and non judgmental, balanced space for other people to add their thoughts and to feel like they are comfortable enough to do so. People with an assertive communication style often know what their limits are in terms of what they can take on.

Reilly Chabie [00:28:38]: They're always willing to kind of challenge themselves and navigate the world differently, but they absolutely will tell you no if they can't do something. However, they do this in a very respectful way. They understand that communication plays a large role in how a team navigates a problem or how relationships are developed. So they're really focused on creating a collaborative a space so that all people can be involved in the process. Once again, this is the ideal and sometimes we're going to practice really well in this area. Other times we might fall into some of the other categories. It just really depends on the situation and where we're at. So I think it's helpful to kind of take the communication styles here and see how you fit into that.

Reilly Chabie [00:29:26]: Do you notice yourself shifting between these areas or do you kind of find yourself within one? And if you're kind of outside the assertive zone, maybe thinking about ways that you can shift your communication approach so that you might relate more to the assertive style as opposed to the others. So just brief overview of the communication styles. So kind of keep that in mind as we look at our skills here. All right, so we have talked a lot about certain communication styles. We've talked about barriers, We've talked about the symptoms that we might experience or the struggles that might happen if we're not not communicating effectively. And I think it's helpful now to shift gears into how does that translate into our actual actions related to communication? Because once again, communication is more than just talking. It's about creating this space and this dynamic where a collaborative approach can kind of help navigate the issues at hand. So first and foremost, we're going to go ahead and start with identifying our needs.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:32]: If we go back to the previous slides about the eight dimensions of wellness, or perhaps talking a little bit about some of those barriers, those might be indicators as to the types of things that we need.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:47]: Right.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:48]: So maybe a few examples of what we need might include asking for help on something, a common thing that I've Utilized, especially when I was a graduate student, was asking for extensions or extra support on an assignment. So that might be a need of yours. We might also think about a need for maybe support in terms of childcare. We might have needs. Regarding how we navigate a work stressor, lots of different needs kind of come up. And if you think about the eight dimensions of wellness and you notice that, like, let's say, for example, our financial stress is increasing, we might notice that we have needs within that area, such as financial counseling or figuring out how to make a budget that we're going to need to communicate and kind of effectively navigate. Once we've identified like a need, we might also look at explaining an issue that we're having as part of our needs, because it's not just simply asking for something, but it might be you're struggling to understand material, right? So you explain what you're struggling with, and that can be a need. Maybe you're explaining an issue between yourself and your partner, whether that's like a group partner or your spouse or somebody in your life.

Reilly Chabie [00:32:18]: Explaining an issue is just the same as identifying a need for help simply because you're able to open up about your emotional experiences. And that's an important part of building relationships, which, if we remember, is a positive thing to come from effective communication. We also might identify a need like addressing a limit. So when I'm talking about limits, I'm talking about if we've reached this kind of peak level of functioning in a particular area, that's a limit, right? So, for example, a limit that I hold might be that I do not play on my phone before I go to bed, up to like one hour before then, right? That's a limit for me that if I'm playing on my phone right before I go to sleep, I'm absolutely not going to be able to go to sleep as fast as I would like to. So addressing a limit is also a need. Now, when communicating to somebody about that, you are essentially using something called boundaries, which I will talk about in a little bit. But boundaries are our way of communicating those limits and kind of creating consequences on what happens if somebody exceeds that limit or pushes you past that limit. All right, so you've identified that need, right? You've identified the thing that you want to communicate.

Reilly Chabie [00:33:41]: A big tip here, once you've identified that thing, and I didn't necessarily put it in the slide, but it's very important, is that you plan ahead prior to this conversation. We don't want to jump into a conversation if even Though we've identified a need, we don't actually know what we're looking for. Right. So, for example, if I need help on an assignment that's pretty vague, what specifically do I need help on? What question on the worksheet, what criteria of the rubric, what style do I need to submit my references for? What does that look like? What is the specifics of that need and plan, how you want to communicate that, how you want to say that? Obviously, if we kind of have a bullet point list of maybe some of the points that we want to make, examples of why you have that need, that might be helpful for the person you communicating to, to better understand and get some context around why you're having that conversation in the first place. So planning ahead really helps here. Obviously, I know that that might not always happen, but it is helpful in this context if we can do that. We're also going to want to think about creating the right space to have these conversations. Like I said earlier, we want to make sure we have limited distractions.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:06]: Having a really emotionally vulnerable conversation with somebody is not going to fare well at a concert or if I'm in class listening to a lecture. Those things have distractions. They're not appropriate for certain things. Which. Speaking of, think of the context of the conversation. Am I going to have a conversation about how I'm concerned that. That my friend is maybe talking to another friend inappropriately in front of, you know, the audience here? Right. Like, would I talk to you about that? Probably not.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:53]: Even though it's an important conversation that needs to be had, I'm not going to be talking about it in the midst of my presentation here. So think of the context of the conversation and identify a space that works there. Part of creating that space as well is identifying who your audience is. Who are you talking to? It's going to be much different to be talking to a friend as compared to what it's like talking to a professor. There might be certain words or lingo or kind of funny things that you might add to a conversation with your friend that would not be appropriate for how you're communicating with your professor. I'm not necessarily going to tell a joke to my professor unless the context called for it. So we want to keep that in mind as we navigate creating that space. So once you've identified that need, maybe you planned ahead and then you've created that space where you figured out where and when and who you're talking to.

Reilly Chabie [00:36:54]: We want to communicate it. Right? So first and foremost, we are going to Build our confidence in communicating when we're coming from a place of confidence, right? That because I planned ahead, I'm ready to talk about my feelings, specifically, my experiences specifically. Which relates to the second bullet point here, which is using I statements. So I bet that I statements kind of feels a little nostalgic in a way that I remember kind of learning this in kindergarten. Like the I feel or I think or I have noticed this is really crucial to communicating your needs because we don't want to place blame on people. We don't want to indirectly accuse somebody of doing something when we don't have the full understanding of what's going on in the front first place. Right? So utilizing I statements and building confidence around practicing, like, I feel angry when this thing happens, or I have noticed that this thing has happened before and this is how it's made me feel. Right? The more we practice that and the more we kind of come in tune with our own feelings and thoughts, the more confidence we have.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:18]: And we're not talking about the actions of the other person. We're only focusing on our experience, which is really the only thing we have control over in that moment. We also want to keep an eye out when we're communicating these things using I statements. We want to keep an eye out for our nonverbal communication, right. That some things we want to keep in mind are, do we have good eye contact? Right. We're not directly staring into their soul, but we're also not averting our gaze when trying to talk about something important. Right. We want to have a little bit of that confidence, good posture, right.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:54]: With our shoulders square, a little bit back, as straight as it can be. We don't want to necessarily be hunched over or in other predicaments there. We also might want to limit crossing our arms or kind of creating an inadvertent barrier. Right? Because sometimes that can give off a sense of discomfort or you're blocking the conversation, those types of things. That. That might be kind of a comfort thing for some people, but if we avoid that, we're kind of moving toward showing with our body language that we're open to communication and ready to have what is called a conversation, as opposed to just. Just, I'm giving you this information and that's it. We also absolutely want to check our tone, right.

Reilly Chabie [00:39:45]: That we're not necessarily coming from an angry space or we don't want to be too quiet or too timid in that process. We want that tone to be stable and precise. We also definitely want to keep an eye out on our emotional levels. Right? So let's say you start a conversation keeping all of these things in mind. You're talking about your I feels, your I thinks, explaining the situation. But as the conversation is going on, you're getting too heated, right? You're maybe getting more frustrated. You're maybe not necessarily thinking about what the other person is saying, but more so thinking about what you're going to say next in response or how are you going to defend yourself. That's a great indicator that you might need to take a step back, acknowledge that that conversation is not going to go as well as we would like it to.

Reilly Chabie [00:40:37]: It might not be as effective because our thinking and our thought patterns are going to be affected by that. We're not going to think as clearly. So it is okay to note like, whoa, I'm feeling a little overheated here. I'm actually going to take a five minute break. Let's come back to this conversation in a second. That may sound weird, but that's actually really effective in helping people not only process information, but also to reduce a lot of that emotional dysregulation which we talked about earlier when considering emotional barriers or, excuse me, communication barriers. And then the last piece that I want to consider here is, yes, communication and the way that you are saying something through your verbal and nonverbal communication is very crucial to communicating your needs. But the other part of this that is just as important is your active listening skills, right? It's not like you're just talking to a wall and you're expressing something to that wall and then it's left there, right? People that you're talking to are going to respond, they're going to have feelings, they're going to be practicing these skills just like you are.

Reilly Chabie [00:41:45]: Right? So we want to engage in our active listening skills. And what I mean by active listening is we need to pause and really take in the information that they're giving us. That if they say I feel sad or I feel embarrassed or some variation of that, we absolutely want to take that in and use that as an opportunity to reflect for them. Right? So if I say to you I feel angry when you don't let me know that you're coming home late from work. So if I express that to you, that's your opportunity to reflect back, saying, oh, when I don't communicate to you that I'm coming home late, that makes you angry and maybe makes you feel worried about me. Right. That's kind of a summary or a reflection of what I just said that tells me that you're listening and that you've actually noticed the specifics of what I've told you. Right? And it gives you both a chance to really process and kind of get that critical thinking and problem solving part of your brain running.

Reilly Chabie [00:42:51]: So just as much as communicating your needs is important, listening to the experiences of others really makes for that reciprocal and mutual conversation to go the way that you want it to. So we have a couple more slides left, and with some of those communication skills in mind, things that you want to consider. I wanted to circle back to the boundaries piece, which is a specific type of communication that can be used in any setting, even outside of being a grad student. I actually used this image in one of my previous presentations because I think it's helpful to note that boundaries are very similar to those eight dimensions of wellness where we're identifying boundaries. Within these different areas, you might have some emotional boundaries, maybe some conversational boundaries, like perhaps you don't want to talk about certain topics or with a particular person, you're not willing or are willing to communicate certain feelings, maybe some physical boundaries, etc. These are just as important to maintaining our confidence with needs, right? Because there are going to be instances where we've met those limits and this is what we need to communicate. Maybe we didn't have these effective conversations previously before we've met that limit, but now's the time to do so. And practicing this skill helps us kind of build confidence in what we're feeling, and it also helps us kind of establish our own identity and how we want to navigate our world.

Reilly Chabie [00:44:27]: Right? Because these boundaries are based off of your values, the things that you care about, and communicating them lets people know what you do care about and the things that you want to do in order to maintain that connection. So as we wrap up here, I just want to offer a couple of things that might be helpful in your journey with communication in winter 2026. So starting sometime in January, I will be hosting again our Healing Heart Circle, which is a relationship support group where we do talk about more in depth. Some of these considerations I also have here our CAPS Instagram page. This is really helpful just for general material on mental health, and feel free to let us know if there's some communication things you want to see through reels or other postings. So feel free to check that out. And with that, that's all that I have for you today on communicating your needs with confidence. Feel free to scan this QR code to let me know how I did, or if there was any material that maybe you wanted me to discuss.

Reilly Chabie [00:45:29]: And I can have that for next time. Thank you so much, everybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:32]: Thanks, Riley. Really appreciate you sharing all of this today. We have recorded it so we will make sure that it goes live and is shared with everyone because we want everyone to have an opportunity to be able to learn and grow and work on those communication skills, to be able to, as I said at the beginning, better advocate for themselves. But this has been amazing. Riley, thank you so much for sharing this today, for being here, and for sharing all this amazing, all these amazing resources. And I look forward to having you back again very soon.

Reilly Chabie [00:46:09]: All right, thank you so much, Dr. Lewis. Bye everybody.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:12]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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Graduate school is a journey often described as a juggling act, and for good reason. In the recent episode "Juggling & Balancing – How to Multitask and Stabilize in Grad School" of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis and Matthew Oxie delve into what it really takes to find success amidst the constant pull of academic, personal, and professional responsibilities.

Understanding Grad School Stress

Dr. Lewis opens the conversation by normalizing the stress that comes with graduate school. As he puts it, "There is a lot that you are going to be tossing in the air… Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. And that's okay as long as you learn along the way." This sets a compassionate tone for exploring the sources of grad school stress—ranging from academic pressure and family obligations to financial concerns and planning for life after graduation.

Matthew Oxie, a licensed counselor with CAPS at UM-Flint, provides further insight, citing research that graduate students are two to six times more likely to experience anxiety and depression than their undergraduate peers. Stressors like career planning, clinical rotations, commuting, and social obligations all play a role, often overlapping and compounding each other.

The Eight Dimensions of Wellness

A major highlight from the episode is the discussion of the Eight Dimensions of Wellness, which include physical, emotional, environmental, financial, occupational, social, intellectual, and spiritual health. Matthew encourages listeners to use these as both a diagnostic tool and a growth map—reminding us that thriving in one area can help offset struggles in another.

Self-Care vs. Self-Soothing: What's the Difference?

Perhaps the most impactful segment is Matthew's exploration of self-care versus self-soothing. He stresses that while activities like watching Netflix or having a treat are important for unwinding, true self-care is intentional and structured—it's about setting boundaries, routines, and practicing deliberate actions that nourish long-term wellbeing.

Strategies That Work

The episode wraps up with practical advice: prioritize tasks, intentionally schedule downtime, set boundaries (like keeping work email off your phone), and leverage campus resources such as the rec center or counseling services. Matthew and Dr. Lewis also encourage graduate students—no matter if they're on-campus or online—to "get involved" in community and social activities.

If you're feeling the weight of multiple responsibilities or struggling with balance in grad school, this episode is a must-listen. You'll come away with not just empathy for your situation, but tangible strategies for thriving—one step, and one intentional action, at a time.

Ready to find your balance and become a victor in graduate school? Listen to the full episode for more insights and encouragement!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Thanks so much for being here today. I am Dr. Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs here at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you here today. And as always, you know, I am excited that we're going to be talking about a really important topic because as you go through graduate school, you definitely are going to be doing a lot of juggling. There is a lot of things that you are going to be tossing in the air and you're going to be trying to keep going. And balancing all of that as you're going through graduate school is something that all of us that have gone through graduate school before have had to work through. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:53]: And that's okay as long as you learn along the way. And today we've got Matthew Oxy with us. And Matthew is one of our counselors in our CAPS office. And I love our partnership with CAPS because we always talk about amazing topics that will help all of us to be able to learn something a little bit new. So I'm going to turn it over to him to walk us through and talk to us about this important topic. Thanks Matt.

Matthew Oxie [00:01:19]: Excellent. Yeah, no problem. Thank you for having me again, Dr. Lewis.

Matthew Oxie [00:01:22]: Hello.

Matthew Oxie [00:01:22]: Like Dr. Lewis said, my name is Matthew Oxie. I'm a licensed professional counselor with the Counseling and Psychological Services, the CAPS department here at U of M Flint. I do. Like I said, how does that make you feel? Therapy oftentimes Today we are going to talk about how to multitask and stabilize while in graduate school through effective self care strategies, time management tactics and ways you can get involved both on campus and within your own communities to help promote your own well being. So a couple disclaimers beforehand. This is not going to be direct therapeutic advice. I advise if this is something you're seeking, you can either find services at caps, which we'll talk about here soon, or services within a community, or you're already connected.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:09]: But just as a little word of advice. This is not like formal therapeutic advice. The next thing this lecture may not be a full hour. I am, I like public speaking. I'm very good at it. But I'm also kind of a fast talker. So if you guys have any questions, feel free to shout them out in the chat and I will get to them. Dr.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:26]: Lewis, you as well, if you have anything, please let me know. But I guess before we really get started, I want to start with something kind of controversial guys might not be aware of this.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:38]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:02:39]: Grad school can be stressful. Shocking, I know, but it's important to recognize this before we get too deep into the nitty gritty of what we want to talk about with multitasking here. So the types of stressors graduate students face. I've got my speaker notes down here, so it looks like I'm not looking at the screen. I've got my speaker notes down here. I'm not checking my phone or anything like that. So correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Lewis, but University of Michigan Flint currently offers over 30 graduate programs.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:10]: Actually, I was going to say over 50. Over 50.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:13]: Wow.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:14]: I was looking at the. The course selector. Not the course selector like the major selection thing, like the academic programs. I only counted about 35. So you got over 50, we've got over 50. So that furthers the point that across the University of Michigan Flint campus, graduate students are a significant portion of our university's makeup. Right. So this is something that's important to talk about.

Matthew Oxie [00:03:38]: Obviously, if you're listening to this, you're likely a graduate student at U of M Flint. So you understand that now common sources of graduate student stress. Graduate student student stress. Someday I'll be able to get that combination of words out of my mouth. Now, there is actually an index for this. There is the Graduate Stress Inventory. It was made in the mid-90s and it's been revised over the decades. And it asks a series of questions related to environmental, academic, and then family and monetary stressors as well.

Matthew Oxie [00:04:10]: And you can see those are listed here. Academic stress, family issues, interpersonal relationships and financial stress. Additionally, though a little bit more specific to graduate school or I guess in addition to the gsi, we have career, right? Career placement, career planning. What are we going to do after graduate school as well as research and teaching. I know it is a very important part of some programs that you write a thesis, for example, or you have teaching experience or you're expected to teach or run a class or a lab.

Matthew Oxie [00:04:47]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:04:47]: Just depends on what you're studying. There are other problems that are more broad that can amplify some of these stressors, Other concerns that might be totally unrelated to graduate school, but can make it harder to get through poor physical health or disabilities. If we talk about something like a physical disability, chronic pain, and even sometimes increased fatigue, all of these things can, as we've said, amplify the stress of what is above mental and emotional struggles.

Matthew Oxie [00:05:22]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:05:23]: Preexisting mental health struggles or mental health diagnoses. Or mental health struggles and diagnoses that crop up as a result of graduate school. We'll talk about that here on the next slide. So I don't want to get too, too much into the mental and emotional stuff right this second. Sleep can amplify issues. How many of us don't get enough sleep in graduate school? I'm sure quite a few of us.

Matthew Oxie [00:05:47]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:05:47]: That constant, seemingly chronic exhaustion can lead to again, further feelings of stress and then finally age. This one, while Empirical is also a little more anecdotal. Age can play a role in increasing the potency of some of these stressors.

Matthew Oxie [00:06:06]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:06:06]: I want you to think about it. Older students are more likely to be a little bit more established. What I mean by that is you probably already have a family, you already have a career you might be juggling, and you might have yourself embedded in other parts of your communities, for example, on top of graduate school. Whereas someone coming right out of undergrad may not have those exact same stressors right now. Moving on to our next slide here we've got the what now? Let's talk about the how how stress affects graduate student. So before we really get into this, there is a plethora of research on graduate student stress. However, given that's not the topic of the presentation, I'm just going to give you some of the highlights and I promise the rest of the presentation is just a little bit more uplifting than this right here. So graduate students report higher rates of stress than undergraduate students.

Matthew Oxie [00:07:10]: The 2013 study by Wyatt and Oswald showed that while undergraduate students show significantly higher rates of mental illness, graduate students report higher rates of stress. This stress comes from many of the aforementioned stressors that we just talked about, right? There are a lot of expectations put on graduate students. Graduate students are six times more likely to experience anxiety and depression. And those who experience anxiety and depression also report a poor work life balance. Now, I know that sounds contradictory to the last point. This study done in 2018 found that graduate students are two to six times more likely to experience anxiety and depression during grad school, right? This can lead to that increased anxiety or decreased work life balance. My words are all over the place today. I do sincerely apologize.

Matthew Oxie [00:08:07]: So despite grad or undergraduate students reporting higher rates of mental health struggles, graduate students are still more likely to experience those mental health struggles as well throughout their time. And finally, many multicultural elements play a role in some of the stress as well. Everything is multicultural. When we look at some of these elements, we find that graduate students who face particularly racial discrimination and Financial distress have higher rates of anxiety and depression during graduate school. These findings persist with racial discrimination and financial stress. These findings persistent even when students have strong familial and social support. So if faced with racial injustice or heavy financial pressure, regardless of a social or familial support network, you'll still see some of these issues crop up. Additionally, students who reported as LGBTQ had higher odds of anxiety and depression on an individual level.

Matthew Oxie [00:09:20]: And students who reported financial distress were way more prone, particularly to anxiety. In this study done in 2021, financial stress was a large indicator of anxiety. So we've done the fun part. I think I have another bullet point there. Women and international students tend to show heightened distress in graduate school as well. We've done the super fun part. We have established that graduate school is stressful. We know what stresses students out.

Matthew Oxie [00:09:53]: We know how that, how that stress affects you guys on both the macro and the micro level. However, like I said, identifying stress is not the goal of this lecture. It's the foundation for what we kind of want to talk about here, right? The goal is to learn and discuss ways to balance graduate school with everything else. Now, graduate students have kind of a full plate. Again, I'm just full of shocking statements for you guys today. You guys probably did not know that before I said that as graduate students, I have a lot on your plates. What we have examples here on this slide, right? Some examples of things that are or make you make us busy as graduate students. Coursework and exams.

Matthew Oxie [00:10:44]: I know some graduate programs have exams multiple times a week for multiple weeks in a row. Some graduate programs here on campus even condense. And their hell weeks, for example, are even more jam packed with exams because instead of the full 16 weeks, it drops to like a 10 week, 12 week program, right? There's teaching and there's researching, as we mentioned. Sometimes there is an expectation that you run your own class or there's an expectation that you're doing research for your thesis, for your final report. Clinical rotations behind me, you can't see it particularly well through the windows, but I'm across the river from the white building and most of the programs in there, pa, pt, nursing, all require some degree of clinical rotations, some of which are not particularly close to home. Full or part time jobs, whether you have a 20 hour a week, you know, kind of like flash money job that you do working at a coffee shop, or if you're like my colleague Riley, who is currently enrolled in our social work program here at U of M Flint and is also Working as a CAPS counselor, full time work can be stressful. Your occupation can add a lot of things for you to do. We talk about expectations.

Matthew Oxie [00:12:00]: It's a. It's a whole nother slew of things. Family obligations. This can look a million different ways. This can look like raising children, supporting a partner, supporting your parents if they're older, or navigating life with a chosen family, for example. Family obligations are persistent. Commutes. I feel like this one isn't really talked about as much.

Matthew Oxie [00:12:23]: Some students, I mean, U of M Flint is a commuter school. I know we have on campus residencies and we offer quite a few remote programs and remote classes. But at its core, U of M Flint has always been a commuter school. And sometimes those commutes really can add up. Like I said, whether you're going to class or going to a clinical rotation, that's an hour away. If you live here on campus and your clinical rotation is in Ann Arbor, down at Michigan Medicine, that's a two hour round trip commute you have to take every day, potentially longer. And while the commute itself might not be particularly difficult, US23 is not a very hard drive. It does take away a lot of time.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:05]: And it makes some of these other things like researching and managing your family and managing your coursework more difficult because that time you have to do it is now even less because you have to spend two hours on the road, for example. And then finally clubs, professional organizations, or governing bodies within your cohort.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:24]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:24]: I know some programs have like a class president, for example. And then you may be. I believe when I was in graduate school, I was in, I think it was called Chi Sigma iota. It was the professional fraternity for counselors. I believe so. And I was on the board of that. I believe I was the secretary treasurer. It was one of the things.

Matthew Oxie [00:13:45]: It was a long time ago. I apologize for not fully remembering. But all of these things are examples of what the average graduate student might be faced with. What do we notice about the examples that were laid out? They look nearly identical to the things that caused us that kind of stress. I know, that's kind of obvious, right? When we talk about things being on our plate, they often correlate to being stressful.

Matthew Oxie [00:14:15]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:14:18]: Graduate students are faced with many, if not all of these challenges at the exact same time throughout their programs. I have talked a little bit now about the kind of obvious stressful balancing act that is graduate school. So let's get into the actual meat and potatoes of the lecture. Let's discuss ways to Juggle all of these things, balance all these things, prioritize and manage everything we have here and potentially more while keeping our heads above water. The eight dimensions of Wellness. If you have been a student at U of M Flint for any period of time, I am sure you are familiar with this image. The eight dimensions of wellness are something that university health and well being. University health and wellness uhs, they are.

Matthew Oxie [00:15:13]: They're very big on the eight dimensions of wellness and for good reason. Honestly, these dimensions, they can help us from a practical sense, the eight dimensions of wellness can help us categorize some of our concerns and help us recognize where we can grow and also really where we're thriving. They don't just have to be about, oh, what am I lacking? We can look at these eight dimensions and go, okay, I'm secure in these areas. And that can help again further that wellness and foundation. I very briefly want to discuss each of them because I know sometimes these are not discussed, they're just sort of slapped right on the page and you're just expected to be like, oh yeah, it's intuitive, it makes sense and in a lot of ways it is. So this is information from both, I believe, University of Michigan and for the life of me, I can't remember the other website, but you'll see it in the references. What other university I got this information from. So just going to go, start at the top, going to go clockwise here.

Matthew Oxie [00:16:13]: Physical. It's the ability to maintain quality of life that helps you get through the activities of the day with ease. Emotional awareness. These are an awareness of, of thoughts and feelings and responses to daily interactions and events. Environmental wellness is our respect for ourselves, our respect for our community, and a respect for our environment and its surroundings. Right? This can be a love of nature, a love of keeping our cities clean, for example, like really caring about the quality of our environments that we are in all the time. Financial wellness, knowing how to manage expenses and your relationship with money. This can get difficult in graduate school.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:00]: Sometimes we have to work a lot. Sometimes graduate school, not even sometimes. A lot of times graduate school is very expensive. And trying to manage living life as a regular adult, quote unquote, and having to pay for graduate school can be very stressful. Occupational wellness, the work you do and how it fulfills you.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:25]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:27]: If you're in this point in your academic career, I would hope you're doing something that you love. I love therapy. I went to Graduate school of Central Michigan, Master's degree in clinical mental health counseling. I love it. I would do Therapy for free. I would do it a lot less often, but I would do it for free. I love this job. I think I will do it for the next several decades.

Matthew Oxie [00:17:49]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:17:50]: When we think about occupational wellness, we think about the meaning and the fulfillment we get from what we choose to do with our careers. Social wellness. This is defining and connecting with individuals, groups and communities as a whole. Social wellness. I mean humans are social creatures. Enough said.

Matthew Oxie [00:18:10]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:18:11]: Intellectual wellness. This is feeling stimulated and engaged with learning opportunities both within and outside of school. There are many ways that we can still learn in a non academic sense. Intellectual wellness kind of pushes us to further that. And finally, spiritual wellness. Spiritual wellness is your understanding of place and purpose and how you make meaning of who you are and what happens to you. Spiritual wellness can be understood in many, many different ways. Again, it changes person to person.

Matthew Oxie [00:18:43]: But now we have our def. Our eight definitions of the eight dimensions of wellness. And I want you to keep these in mind throughout the rest of this presentation and think about ways you can apply what you already do as well as what we will talk about here in a bit to these dimensions.

Matthew Oxie [00:19:01]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:19:01]: This isn't necessarily a strict homework assignment, just more of a thought experiment. Self care versus Self soothing. Part of me wants to apologize in advance. This is my soapbox. This is the thing I love talking about. But part of me also doesn't want to because I think it's great information that you guys all can have and share around as you please. So Self care versus Self soothing. Self care.

Matthew Oxie [00:19:31]: This is, like I said, one of my favorite topics. This will serve as the foundation going forward for the rest of our time together.

Matthew Oxie [00:19:39]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:19:39]: I've got a few more slides after this, but this warrants enough that we want to talk about this quite a bit, right? I want to take some time to lay it out for you. You have probably heard of the importance of self care, right? Everyone's heard of the importance of self care. Whether it is a paper, an article, a journal, a review about the importance of self care and well being, or self care and stress reduction. Whether it's scholarly and academic, or if it's a 20 second TikTok video raving about the importance of taking time for you, regardless of where you've heard it from, they are correct. Self care is a crucial part of balancing responsibilities in graduate school and beyond. Because if you are a graduate student mid-20s, you still got like 70 years left after graduate school is over. So we manage self care now. This can carry us for a very long time.

Matthew Oxie [00:20:42]: Here's where I get on my soapbox though. However, our definition of self care might be a little off. Now, our knee jerk reaction when we think of self care is what?

Matthew Oxie [00:20:53]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:20:55]: Watching Netflix, maybe taking a nice bath, Finding a little sweet treat like self care, right? I'm doing this for me. This is self care. These are all fantastic ways to unwind. They're not self care, right? These activities can be better defined as self soothing. Now if you look at the column on the left under self soothing, they can be defined as activities that help soothe a person during a stressful time. These are, I'm sure if you guys, you know, wanted to, you could think of half a dozen ways that you guys self soothe on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, right? This is something that helps you regulate yourself. This helps regulate our stress levels. One of the keys with self soothing is they're easily accessible and sometimes well established.

Matthew Oxie [00:21:48]: You don't really have to do anything new or difficult to load up Netflix or to load up a video game or to go on a walk, right? A lot of these self soothing activities don't take a whole lot of effort. And even if you want to try something new, right? These self soothing activities, for example, it makes it sound so formal. These ways that we relax and unwind self so soothing, right? They can be learned and practiced even in busy times. You know, there's something like, like cooking, for example, can be, there can be soothing for some people. Working on new recipes, reading new books, playing new games, watching new shows, right? These can be examples of how easy self soothing can be. And that's part of the beauty of it. It doesn't take a very big barrier to entry. However, self soothing, if overused, can be deleterious to our health and well being in graduate school and beyond.

Matthew Oxie [00:22:50]: So self soothing, while absolutely necessary to our overall well being, like I said, can have some negative effects. I want you to think about a scenario for me. You are very stressed and you say, you know what? I've had a long day. I'm going to watch Netflix for 48 straight hours, right? I'm doing it in the name of self care for, for self care sake. I'm going to watch Netflix for 48 straight hours. What do we think happens? What do you think happens when we watch Netflix for 48 straight hours? For starters, you probably haven't eaten much, probably haven't showered at all. You probably haven't slept very much. You probably haven't gone to the bathroom very much.

Matthew Oxie [00:23:35]: So on the most basic physiological level, probably not doing great, your eyes probably hurt. Probably feeling a little atrophied from sitting on the couch or the bed all day long. What's more than that, right? On top of that, you've probably missed a class or two, you've possibly missed work, and you've likely neglected other social and familial responsibilities in the name of self care, right? Your pets didn't get fed, your kids didn't get picked up from school. Your professor was never informed about why you didn't go to a lecture. Your manager never found out why you didn't go to work. So now you have a no call, no show, right? I will admit that the example of watching Netflix for 48 straight hours is just a little bit hyperbolic. I get it, right? However, I bring it up because it does a good job of showcasing what Mistaking self soothing how mistaking self soothing for self care can be harmful, right? Is doing something like watching Netflix inherently harmful? No, of course not. There are great shows on Netflix and Hulu, or if you're a sports fan, like so NFL Sunday Ticket, for example, or March Madness Basketball.

Matthew Oxie [00:24:59]: These are all totally fine ways to soothe, but it it highlights that if overused, they can hurt us, right? All of that said, what is self care? I like to think of self care as the framework for proper self soothing.

Matthew Oxie [00:25:16]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:25:17]: One of the key differences between self care and self soothing, the way I like to define it, is that self care is intentional. What do I mean by that? I say intentional because true self care is thought out and implemented with a goal in mind, right? So we look on the other column here of this, of this presentation. Self care is comprised of intentional practices, routines and structures which are developed over time to better facilitate well being in however way we feel it necessary. Self care involves establishing boundaries with yourself and others to create a healthy environment for you to work in. I will use an example of this from my own personal and professional life. I don't have my email on my phone. Don't have my work email on my phone. I know many people, colleagues, even my partner, are stressed out of the fact that I don't have my email on my phone.

Matthew Oxie [00:26:20]: But it's a boundary I have set over the years because despite working a job that at any given moment duty could call and we would have to see to a crisis. Nothing so serious is going to come up that I'm not going to get a phone call or a text message. And honestly, when 5 o' clock comes around, I don't want to think about work afterwards. I care about my clients, but I don't want to have that stress following me. An example of a boundary to keep that is to keep email off of my phone, my work email off of my phone, right? These can be far more difficult to implement on the fly. If you guys have something for example, like your work email or your school email on your phone and I told you to delete it, would that work? Would that make you feel comfortable? Probably not, right? Not if you've been used to using it for a couple of months or even a couple of years, depending on what program you're in. Intentional self care takes deliberate practice. Intentional self care can be started small and it takes practice.

Matthew Oxie [00:27:31]: We'll talk about it here very soon, but I'm going to give you an example of what intentional self care can look like. I've written out a little scenario here, so follow me as best you can. Let's say you've had a stressful week of exams, work and research. You had two exams on Wednesday. You had one exams on third, one exam on Thursday. You had three eight hour work days throughout the week, and the first draft of your thesis was due by Friday morning. The weekend comes around and for the first time all semester long you don't have anything going on. There are no exams on Monday, there are no readings to do and there are no articles to examine.

Matthew Oxie [00:28:15]: There's no shifts to clock in for. There's nothing. You truly have nothing to do in the following week. And you decide, you know what? I think I'm gonna watch Netflix all weekend long. Just like our friend who watched it for 48 straight hours. I'm gonna watch Netflix all weekend long. An example of the intentional approach with self care in this case involves setting boundaries and establishing some of some time management, right? You've already done the hard work of clearing your schedule. You've already done the hard work.

Matthew Oxie [00:28:49]: You've done the exams, you've done the paper, you've done the work. Like the actual physical going into work, you've done the hard part. And you've said in advance, my plan for the weekend is to do nothing. You have laid that out even as early as Monday, maybe even the weekend prior this upcoming weekend. I'm not doing a darn thing. I'm going to watch Netflix all weekend long. So there are no major external expectations, expectations at this point that exist for us to neglect, right? We've already established it with ourselves. We've set that boundary.

Matthew Oxie [00:29:24]: Now your plan with this whole weekend, you're gonna wake up, take a shower on Saturday morning, have a coffee, have a yogurt, feed your cats, and then prepare to get comfy on the couch or the bed for the next like several hours.

Matthew Oxie [00:29:38]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:29:39]: Maybe you're a Lord of the Rings person. You want to watch all the extended editions of Lord of the Rings. That's a very long time commitment. That's a whole weekend's worth of content right there. But you, you're, you're settled in, you're dug in. You allow yourself to pause when needed, pause your movie, pause your show, pause your game to use the bathroom, find a little bit of lunch, prep some dinner, care for your animals as needed.

Matthew Oxie [00:30:04]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:30:05]: And I'll, I'll add another example. We talked about cooking as a self soothing method. You make something simple and healthy on Saturday. You make something simple and healthy, it doesn't take a whole lot of effort filling you like it. And you're doing that because you told yourself you're going to order food on Sunday. You know, thinking about the financial dimension of wellness, you want to order from doordash, but doordash can be expensive. Yeah, we'll do it one day. You know, we'll plan, we'll plan our finances around it, we'll plan our meal around it, and that'll be our game plan.

Matthew Oxie [00:30:36]: We'll eat a little dinner on Saturday and then order something on Sunday. On Sunday evening, take a little bit of time after dinner to prep for the week ahead. Get your clothes ready, get your coffee maker ready for Monday morning, get your laptop ready, put it by the door, get ready to go. And you set yourself a bedtime so you can get to sleep by Monday. I know that one sounds a little corny for adults, right? Set yourself a bedtime. What are you, seven years old? Set yourself a bedtime. That's part of that intentional timekeeping and that intentional boundary you're setting. I'm not going to stay up till 3 o' clock in the morning watching shows, playing games, watching movies.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:13]: I have things to do in the morning.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:15]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:17]: If you're thinking to yourself throughout this whole scenario, didn't you just say watching Netflix for 48 straight hours is bad?

Matthew Oxie [00:31:28]: It.

Matthew Oxie [00:31:28]: You're, you're correct. I did use that example, that rather hyperbolic example to showcase how watching Netflix for 48 hours can be deleterious to your well being as a student. However, I want you to think about the differences between these two scenarios. The first served a good purpose. It, it served. It had good intentions at, at first, but quickly devolved into neglect of our well being.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:00]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:01]: If we got so overwhelmed throughout the week that we decided we're just going to turn ourselves off for the next 48 hours. In a way we can appreciate it.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:12]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:32:12]: We're taking time to reset, but if overdone, it causes harm. The second scenario on the other hand, showed how intentionally planning to do something like that. You know, intentionally planning that weekend. We've set our boundaries, we're keeping time limits and we've allowed for nearly two whole days of self soothing activities.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:39]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:32:40]: How these intentional pieces can allow for this extended self soothing while also setting us up for success for a potentially stressful week.

Matthew Oxie [00:32:49]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:32:52]: It sounds similar in practice. It is very different. I know self care can be hard. I know implementing these things can be hard. Especially when we have our routines that work so well. There are so many external pressures. It's like you have to focus on me. You have to focus on me right now.

Matthew Oxie [00:33:09]: You can't look at anything else. You have to pay attention to me right now.

Matthew Oxie [00:33:13]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:33:15]: And at times it's very easy to feel like we are drowning under these expectations. There are so many at once. It feels like we are drowning under these expectations. I encourage you guys to take a screenshot of this. I'll send these slides to Dr. Lewis later as well. In addition to the recording, I'll have some other links that go in there too. We'll talk about here in a little bit.

Matthew Oxie [00:33:36]: I encourage you guys to practice self care. Practice it over and over and over again. It might take a few times to get right. You might find that trying to prep the night before to make your morning a little less stressful doesn't help you at all. You might find that removing email off of your phone, it makes it so much worse. Makes your day so much more stressful than it needs to be. Not being able to check your email, right? Practice. This is different person to person.

Matthew Oxie [00:34:07]: Practice being intentional with your time, with your boundaries. Practice being intentional. Intentionality is the key for true self care. Speaking of time, I would be remiss if I did not talk about time management skills in a lecture like this. It feels a little redundant. You guys are graduate students. I'm not going to sit here and be like, you should get a planner. You should get an app on your phone.

Matthew Oxie [00:34:36]: You should set yourself for reminders. You have been in school, some of you, 20 odd years, right? You know how to keep yourself balanced, I guess, when it comes to that kind of time management. But I want to talk about time management and prioritizing tasks, right? Using what we know about self care from the previous slides, we can Work to establish a schedule that allows us to both complete necessary tasks as well as rest and recharge. Now, like I said, this can look different student to student. I will give you an example that I have used in the past in therapeutic situations. What I sometimes tell students to do is to stop studying after a certain time, right? Time management and prioritizing tasks. We have an exam on Friday, Today's Monday, right? When the week, as the week progresses, stop studying by a certain time.

Matthew Oxie [00:35:41]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:35:42]: This builds on a point that I will talk about here in a little bit. Those assignments taking as long as you give them, but when we practice intentionally. All right, 9pm Book is closed. I have two hours to do whatever I want for the rest of the night that does not involve school or studying. That intentionality helps us not only prioritize ourselves, right? We get some free time. We get to unwind a little bit, do something that we've been looking forward to, even if it's just nothing scrolling on our phone. I could sit here and talk about the negative effects of scrolling on your phone, but I'm also a person who enjoys TikTok and Instagram and am prone to scrolling on my phone after a long and stressful day. It happens, right? But when we set that boundary with ourselves, not only do we prioritize our own well being, we also prioritize the exam.

Matthew Oxie [00:36:39]: You've got class from, I don't know, 8am to 4pm you're going to get a little food afterwards and you're going to hunker down from five to nine and study. That causes you to prioritize studying effectively. If you've only got four hours, it doesn't do you any good to sit there on TikTok because you know you can do that later. I know this varies student to student, like I said, but when we put these kind of limits on these things and we put that hard time limit, for example, it allows and in a way forces us to get the most out of that study period. For this example exam. This leads into my next point that deadlines can be stressful, but they can provide a great framework for us to work in. An excellent framework. Now, there's a very extensive review done in 2020 and it talked about the impact of stress on graduate students.

Matthew Oxie [00:37:40]: One of the things it highlighted in this review, I don't remember the paper it found it from, but it showed that some stress can be helpful when completing works such as working on a thesis or masters or doctoral.

Matthew Oxie [00:37:57]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:37:58]: I believe the proper term is actually Eustress. There's the, the difference between eustress and distress. We're very, we're very comfortable with the idea of distress.

Matthew Oxie [00:38:08]: Right.

Matthew Oxie [00:38:09]: I have to, I don't have any time to do homework. I feel very distressed. It's all right there. Sometimes there is eustress. Sometimes these deadlines cause this sort of positive stress in our life. Instructor, determined dates for exams and papers can help guide studying and researching. They can help guide that intentional self care.

Matthew Oxie [00:38:31]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:38:32]: I use the example of the exam, no matter what, it's going to be done on Friday as an example statement. You can apply this to any homework assignment, group project, doctoral thesis exam, clinical, oz, key. Whatever you have to do, right? It's going to get done by Friday. This allows us to work with that. Intentionality works with boundaries. Sometimes it involves telling people no. Sorry guys. I love trivia night.

Matthew Oxie [00:39:03]: I love my Tuesday night trivia. For example, I can't go tonight. I have a very important paper I have to work on. I'll see you guys next week. We're intentional in what we are and are not doing right while prioritizing ways to keep us healthy. I mentioned earlier that assignments can take as long as you give them, right? This was actually said to me by a friend a couple years ago after we were both long out of school. I, it may be obvious by the way, I'm very kind of casually talking about this topic. I was never the kind of student to work on things really, really, really far in advance.

Matthew Oxie [00:39:44]: Never was my thing. Always been a last minute kind of guy. Definitely didn't put the finishing touches on this presentation this morning. I would never do that and I would never tell my lecture group about that.

Matthew Oxie [00:39:55]: Am I right?

Matthew Oxie [00:39:56]: But while having a conversation with this friend, they mentioned to me that assignments take as long as you give them. What she meant by that was, let's say I give you a paper due in two weeks. If you say, ah, I gotta work on it right now, it's due in two weeks, I gotta work on it right now. You are gonna go back to that paper every single day. Even when you think you finish it, you're gonna go back every day, you're gonna try to make changes. And that stress is gonna last for two whole weeks, right? If you only give it the evening, well, Thursday night I better start that paper I was given two weeks ago. The stress is only going to last for the evening. Now, I think both of those examples are a bit extreme.

Matthew Oxie [00:40:42]: And having lived a lot of my life in the latter, I can tell you that it does get stressful and that's not the advice I am telling you to do. I am not telling you to put off all of your your assignments until the last minute. That's not the best tactic. What I'm saying is these assignments take as long as we give them. So feel free. Please utilize your self care and utilize your self soothing. I have a quote right below that. It says it's okay to not.

Matthew Oxie [00:41:12]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:41:12]: It's okay to not do homework for a night. It's okay to take a night off and go to trivia. You've got a huge exam on Friday and you studied Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, throughout the day on Tuesday you had classes and lectures. It's okay to go to Tuesday night trivia. It's okay to not. Just as it's okay to not partake in things that are a little bit more enjoyable when you have to lock in as the kids say and focus on what you have to do. It's okay to not neglect other important pieces like that self care and that self soothing that we talked about. This is something that I always express to students who come into my office, right? Always try to mention that it is okay to not.

Matthew Oxie [00:42:01]: There are so many expectations that sometimes we forget all the things we talked about a couple slides ago.

Matthew Oxie [00:42:13]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:42:13]: If I ask you guys to recount all of the things that were on your plate, does anybody think they could list them all off from memory in order? Probably not. I can't even do that. And I made the presentation and I have the speaker notes in front of me on a separate window. I could scroll back up and look and I don't remember off the top of my head. Professors, managers, family members, friends, they may not realize all of the things that are on our plates. Despite understanding in a way, yeah, grad students are stressed. They may not know the full extent of it. Only we know truly what each of us are dealing with throughout our time in graduate school.

Matthew Oxie [00:42:56]: It is okay to not. Now. We have talked about a lot of ways to practice that are a little bit more theoretical I guess because they vary so much person to person and this is not a psychological well being group. So I'm not trying to, you know, and ask everyone like, so what are your stressors? How can we work it out individually? That's not what I'm talking about. But I want to give you guys some general things that we can engage in here, right? Get involved, get involved, get involved. Get physical.

Matthew Oxie [00:43:35]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:43:36]: Join your local or university sponsored sports teams. If you guys are on campus, the U of M Flint Rec center and all of its programs are free for all U of M students, even graduate students. They are all free. I don't even know if you need a membership. You show up with your M card, swipe, you are good to go.

Matthew Oxie [00:43:54]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:43:56]: Get yourself involved in community wellness practices.

Matthew Oxie [00:44:01]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:44:02]: Join local gyms, join running clubs, join athletic sporting teams, join walking groups. I believe there's actually a walking group at the rec center. Funny enough, it might be a community walking group or might be a student staff walking group. I believe every day, maybe every like Wednesday or Thursday, they walk around. Ask someone at the rec center about that because I believe that actually does exist here on campus. And you talk about, you know, getting involved with community wellness practices. I don't know if you guys have seen your email, but Flint does bike tours. There's bike tours all around Flint that talk about the history of the various parts of the city.

Matthew Oxie [00:44:39]: I know there's one coming up in October of like haunted Flint. That one sounds like quite a bit of fun. I know some of this stuff isn't always as straightforward, right? We recently had a staff breakfast last weekend. Again, this is a little more anecdotal, a little less empirical, as it were. Dr. Jerusalem, Dono mentioned in our whole DSA gathering that over 50% of graduate students are enrolled in online programs. Which means some of you guys might not be on campus at all or ever.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:14]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:14]: Riley was actually just telling me that a couple of members of her social work cohort don't even live in Michigan.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:20]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:22]: Please don't let that encourage, discourage. Please don't let that discourage you.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:27]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:27]: Please don't let that discourage you from getting involved and engaging in campus activities if you live two hours away. I get it. No one wants to drive to Flint for four hour round trip for a two hour spin class. Totally understand that.

Matthew Oxie [00:45:42]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:45:43]: But if we're close, don't let that discourage you from getting involved. And don't let it discourage you your your status as a graduate student. Don't let it discourage you from getting involved in other ways too. Might live two hours away. You might live in Lansing, Grand Rapids. You might live in the metro Detroit area. You might be up in the up. You might be out of state.

Matthew Oxie [00:46:04]: You can still find a local gym. You can still find a way to involve yourself in community. We'll talk about other ways here. Please don't let it discourage you. Graduate students are. We want you guys at our activities just as much as as other other populations of students. Get mental if you've gotten Physical. Now let's get mental.

Matthew Oxie [00:46:26]: Let's get emotional. Utilize the available mental health resources both on and off campus. Speaking of shameless self promotions, the CAPS office here at U of M Flint is free for all U of M Flint students, even graduate students. The only exception is that if you live out of state, we cannot see you if you are within the state of Michigan and enrolled in classes. And at the University of Michigan Flint we offer counseling services that are totally free. I like to joke that that actually makes us the most expensive therapy provider in Genesee county because graduate tuition is way more expensive than outpatient therapy. But it's already included. So if you need to feel free to come utilize the service as a graduate student.

Matthew Oxie [00:47:12]: If, say for example, therapy is not your thing or maybe you already have a therapist. We have reflection and sensory rooms all over campus. If you guys are on campus, I know specifically for my students over in the white building, it can feel like when you're on the other side of the river. There's no way to get over to the south side. There's no way that we can get to the use ending CAPS to utilize their wellness resources. We have many of these rooms on campus. We've got one in the library. We've got one in the CAPS office here in the University Center.

Matthew Oxie [00:47:46]: Usen and I learned today that we actually have a sensory room in the white building. Room 1209. Go. I've never been there myself, but I've learned about today. It's on our University Health and wellness page. Go check it out.

Matthew Oxie [00:47:58]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:47:58]: These rooms help you relax and unwind a little bit. The CAPS office again, because we're so cool. Have a bunch of other wellness resources in addition to our sensory room. We have a biofeedback machine. We have a Happy Light as they call it. And we even have a massage chair that literally nobody uses. You guys could book time on our massage chair and CAPS and come use it today if you wanted to. Well, we're almost close, so maybe not today, but early in the winter.

Matthew Oxie [00:48:30]: U of M Flint is oftentimes our week of wellness.

Matthew Oxie [00:48:33]: Right?

Matthew Oxie [00:48:34]: Keep an eye out on your email over the next couple of months to hear about Week of Wellness. In addition to doing a bunch of fun giveaways and things like that, it really is a great environment on campus to promote student well being throughout those eight dimensions that we talked about earlier. Speaking of keeping your eyes out for things on campus, get social. Get social with it. Visit Campus Connections for all the latest event updates for both on campus and online programs. That is the most commercial sounding thing I have said in this entire lecture and for that I apologize. This is not a paid advertisement by Campus Connections, right? This is something you can utilize. Log into as a, as a U of M.

Matthew Oxie [00:49:20]: Flint student and get the lowdown on what is happening around campus. There are a lot of great programs that again, promote wellness that are oftentimes totally free. Finally, we talk about getting social. Connect with your family, friends and peers. When we have this kind of amount of stress on our plate that we talked about, we have the stress, we have all of the expectations. It can be a lot. And I know talking about it can be hard as well. Take it from me, as someone who both listens to people talk about it and struggled to talk about it myself in graduate school, it can be a lot.

Matthew Oxie [00:50:00]: Connect with your family, connect with your friends, Connect with your peers in class. Connect with your cohorts. Even if you guys are all remote, have a game night, right? Connect with one another. As I mentioned earlier, humans are social creatures and the connection is vital to helping us stay afloat, keeping our heads above water. I want to thank you all so much for coming to this lecture here today. I hope you guys have learned a thing or two about how to kind of balance and manage all these expectations in graduate school. I hope you guys have learned about the dimensions of wellness. I hope, most importantly that you have learned the difference between self care and self soothing and how you guys could apply that to your day to day lives.

Matthew Oxie [00:50:43]: And I hope you guys are encouraged to get out and get involved. Talk to people on campus or off campus. When I send Dr. Lewis the slides, I'm going to send him some additional links. Links to the rec center, links to the CAPS office, links to campus connections. Things that you as students can and absolutely should utilize. Remember, they're all free. So like I said, thank you so much.

Matthew Oxie [00:51:07]: Dr. Lewis, I'm going to turn it back over to you. You can close us out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:51:10]: Well, thank you all for coming today. Really appreciate it. Thank you Matthew for all of this amazing information and I wish you all the best as you're moving through your graduate school experience. Thank you so much for your time today and for being here. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, Visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:51:44]: Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you thinking about taking the next step toward a graduate degree, but feeling uncertain about what that journey might look like? On this week's episode of "Victors in Grad School," host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Melissa Winter, Director of Housing and Dining at the University of Michigan-Flint, to discuss her distinct path through two graduate programs, the bumps along the way, and the keys to sustaining success as a student and professional.

Melissa's story begins with her undergraduate experience at Oakland University, where active campus involvement ignited her interest in higher education as a career. Yet, instead of jumping straight into grad school, she intentionally took a year off to reflect and thoroughly research programs, underscoring the importance of thoughtful decision-making rather than rushing into big commitments.

Her path led her to a master's in Higher Education and Student Personnel at Kent State University—a decision partly influenced by supportive mentors and the overall fit she felt with the campus and cohort. Later, after several years working (including living abroad for eight years!), Melissa pursued a second master's degree—this time, an online, accelerated MAT (Master of Arts in Teaching) program designed to help her transition careers and relocate to the United States. Even though she ultimately didn't pursue teaching, the experience provided clarity about her true passion for working with college students.

Throughout the episode, a few key themes shine through: Resilience in the Face of Challenge—Melissa candidly shares how she struggled to find community and questioned her choices early in her first grad program. Thanks to thoughtful guidance from faculty, she stuck with it, ultimately finding her stride and forming lasting connections.

Adaptability and Time Management—Melissa discusses how graduate school taught her to be tremendously organized, balancing assistantships, coursework, and family. She found creative ways to collaborate with classmates, like turning commutes into productive work sessions, and prioritizing time for studies early in the mornings.

The Power of Community and Mentorship—Her advice for prospective grad students? Stay focused on your goals and actively seek out mentors and support networks. Success, she says, isn't just about high grades—it's about serving others and helping students thrive.

If you're contemplating grad school, Melissa's journey is a must-listen reminder that the path isn't always linear, but with grit, intention, and support, you can chart your own fulfilling course. Tune into the full episode for even more practical insights and inspiration!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Melissa Winter [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to have these conversations with you. I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and be able to take. To find ways that you can take information from these conversations and be able to turn it into something that is going to help you to be able to be even more successful in this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: No matter if you are at the very beginning, just starting to think about, is graduate school right for me? Or if you applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school. No matter where you are, there are still things that you can do to be able to be successful one day at a time. And that's why this podcast exists. It's here to be able to help you on this journey that you're on, for you, to be able to learn from other people that have gone before you. You might learn some things that you're already doing, but hopefully you're going to be learning some new things that others have done before you that can help you along the way. Today we got another great guest. Melissa Winter is with us today. And Melissa is the Director of Housing and Dining at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: And she's her own journey that has led her to where she is today. And we're going to be talking about that journey today. So I'm really excited to have her here and to have her share some of her experiences. Melissa, thanks so much for being here today.

Melissa Winter [00:01:44]: Yeah, no problem. Happy to help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: So really excited to have you here. I know that. And I want to start today by turning the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at Oakland University, where you got a bachelor's degree in history and political science. But then at some point, at some point after being out of school for a little bit of time, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to go back to school and get a degree, a degree in higher education and student personnel. So I'd like to go back in time to that period of time. I want you to take me back to that moment, that moment that you figured out that you wanted to continue your education with a graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Bring me back to that point, what made you decide graduate school was the right step for you?

Melissa Winter [00:02:32]: Well, it was something that I was considering during my undergraduate degree. I was a very involved student on campus and doing lots of different things. And so it was an interest area of mine. But because I was doing a lot on campus, serving in different leadership roles, felt like I needed a year away from school. So I started doing a job search more locally for some experiences and ended up landing a role in a school environment similar to what I ended up going into. But it allowed me the opportunity to take my time and really take a look at institutions, to look at programs, instead of just jumping in without thinking about it. So for me, taking that year off to really make a solid decision helped me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: Now, I know you made the decision to attend Kent State University and to get a degree in higher education student personnel. And some of this decision might have been, like you said, that you were really involved. But I guess talk to me about the decision making of why you decided to go and get a degree in higher education student personnel, but also why Kent State University.

Melissa Winter [00:03:41]: So I really believed, and I still do to this day, that students taking responsibility for their education and their own involvement is very important. There's a student development theory that is that talks about this. And so that was something that I really espoused to. So jumping into higher ed for me was something that I wanted to be able to contribute back to other students, to encourage them to get involved, take on opportunities as student leaders on their campuses. So that was part of my decision making process. And then in terms of Kent State, I actually did a pretty wide search for institutions. And I did have my dean of students at my undergrad did attend Kent State. And so he suggested it as an option for me to come consider.

Melissa Winter [00:04:25]: And so it was one of the schools that I was considering when I went to visit there. There was a great coordinator that was leading the program at the time. And to be honest, it just felt like the most comfortable for me in terms of the other students that I was interacting with. It just had a great feel for me. And of course, I got an assistantship offer. So it all kind of just lined up and worked out. It was a good program for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:49]: I'm going to delve a little bit into what you learned in that program, but I also know you decided down the road to get another master's degr. And I guess before we pivot too far off, you ended up down the road deciding to get a second master's degree after a number of Years of working. Not everybody would make that choice to go back to school after they get that master's degree. So bring me back to that point and why you made a decision that you wanted to add on and get a second Master's.

Melissa Winter [00:05:20]: So I was actually at a point where I was considering either PhD work or doing something additional. And at the time I was living overseas and trying to find a way to return back to the United States. I'd been living overseas at that point for about eight years and learned of a master's program. It was a MAP program to teach essentially from another institution that I had worked at previously. And it was an accelerated program and thought it was something that seemed like a possibility to me and more of a guarantee for a job more easily, which was why I was considering it. And so it was a Master's in arts and teaching program and it allowed me to do it online. And so there was an opportunity for me to do that. And so that's why I jumped at doing that.

Melissa Winter [00:06:13]: So I learned some things. I ended up not going into teaching. Like I learned some things about myself from that program. There were aspects that I did enjoy, but realized I did really like the higher ed environment and the college student population, just the 18 to 22, 24 year old student and adult learners beyond, I enjoyed that population more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:36]: Even so, you had two different experiences going through graduate school, both very different in regard to the experiences themselves. One being in person, on campus, other, the other being remote and accelerated. Talk to me about transitions. Because every student that goes into graduate school, no matter if it's their first, their second, or whatever it may be, has to go through a transition. They have to transition into graduate school and transition through graduate school. And you found success going through graduate school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the graduate school experiences that you had?

Melissa Winter [00:07:21]: So in my first graduate program, I actually did hit a bit of a bump. So after about two months into my program, I was coming off the experience of a very involved undergraduate student doing a lot on campus, that feeling of community. And in graduate school, I was going into my program with an off campus assistantship. So it had a different feel. And not only was it different in terms of, in terms of involvement on campus, but it was taking away some of the activity level that I would have been used to. And my role as a graduate student was helping to teach and train undergraduates. I remember there was a point in my program that I actually had contemplated leaving it. I had a conversation with my.

Melissa Winter [00:08:12]: The coordinator of my program said that I was feeling disconnected, essentially. And he guided me through conversation. He wasn't steering me in any way, but he did say, let's get through the semester first before you decide, because this was like late October or something. And he said, let's get through the semester, finish up, and then let's decide what you'd like to do then. And I actually was even considering some other assistantship options that were being offered on the Kent State campus. And ultimately I stuck with the program through that semester. And then I even decided, I'm going to stay with my assistantship. And I ended up staying with both the assistantship and the program for the full two years.

Melissa Winter [00:08:55]: So I think sometimes individuals find it easy to just like, oh, this isn't working at all. I'm going to jump ship. It ended up being great advice, and I stuck through it. My next semester went well. I developed great friendships. It just took time to establish those friendships and community pieces that I wasn't. I was in a new environment from where I was before. So it.

Melissa Winter [00:09:15]: You have to give yourself a little grace and time to establish that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:18]: So as you came back to your second master's degree, did you also find that there were any bumps in the road or any other issues in regards to the different way of learning or the different type of campus experience that you were going through?

Melissa Winter [00:09:32]: Yeah, I mean, learning online, while convenient, it's definitely harder to make the same or develop the same relationships that you would in person. And while I was doing well academically, it was even harder to establish those connections. So you just have to really. If it's something you really want to do, you have to fight to, like, find those connections. And I did to some degree. There were some people who were closer to my age because there were students who were fresh out of undergrad in that program, 22, 23, and then some of us who are in our 40s. So. So you just have to identify people who you can connect with and reach out to, whether.

Melissa Winter [00:10:08]: Whatever their ages. But. And there were some of those and some people that I'm still in touch with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:12]: So it sounds like as you were going through these different programs, there definitely were some mindset shifts that you had to go through for yourself to be able to get yourself in a place where you were ready to continue on through the program. Talk to me about those mindset shifts that you had to do for yourself that helped you be successful in the graduate experiences that you had.

Melissa Winter [00:10:33]: I Think just trying to stay focused on what it is that you came to school to do or to your program, whatever, stay focused on that end goal. There was actually someone else in my higher ed program who did end up dropping out midway through and kind of like the same time frame that I was having my own struggles. And she ended up kind of going down a different career path because of that. But I think because of that conversation that I had with my coordinator and just kind of reminding me to stick to it and stay focused, I think that helped keep me on target.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:09]: And I guess staying on target definitely takes some organization. It takes a lot of different putting things in the right place to be able to prepare yourself and to get yourself where you need to be. Talk to me about time management, especially as a working professional, as a person going through and having an assistantship for your first graduate program, but then having full time work for your second. How did you manage all of that? How did you balance school, work, family, personal responsibilities, but also the time that it took for you to be able to do the best that you wanted to do.

Melissa Winter [00:11:47]: Certainly in the first program, I would say like the first month or so it took me again a little bit of adjustment. I was used to, I don't want to say taking it easy, but I didn't need to be as organized in my undergraduate degree. And I found myself a couple times where I would work on a paper and I would get some feedback that I knew it wasn't my best work because I had waited and delayed things a bit. But in getting things refocused, managing things, it just was a learning experience, I would say the first month or two, and then realized, you know what? I can do a better job than this. Leaning on people for support, getting feedback from some colleagues. So there was a few of us in grad school that we were commuting down from Cleveland to Kent, which was like a 45, 50 minute drive. And so we would have conversations in the car about our whatever assignments or something that we were working on. It was a great support to get through things, not only just like throwing ideas off one another, but we would kind of go through and read off notes and talk about things as we were like driving down, back and forth.

Melissa Winter [00:12:50]: So that was really helpful too. We were trying to use the most of our time, since we were all sitting in the car together anyways, to try to take advantage of that. That was something that was really helpful in the second degree. I just tried to mold out the time that would work best for me. I would get up early in the morning to do work before anyone got up. Let's say it was a Saturday morning. Instead of waiting until 8 or 9 o', clock, I would be getting up at like 6:30 and start getting some work done. Because I knew I had at that time like a four year old and I would have to take some time with him too.

Melissa Winter [00:13:21]: So you just have to carve the time out of your schedule to make it happen.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:25]: You know, graduate school definitely changes you in many different ways and it also changes the way that you do things, the way that you think, work and approach things. So as you think back to your graduate school experiences, how did graduate school change the way that you think, work or approach problems?

Melissa Winter [00:13:44]: I definitely looked at things from certainly more of a professional perspective than from a student mindset. That was one thing that changed. But also in collecting information, I think that that's something that helps me form a decision on something, especially if it's a bigger decision. Obviously when you're working on some graduate school paper or project, you are collect information. And that was a piece that I took into my professional roles as well, like collecting information before you make a decision in some cases and then really relying on some theory in some cases to back up some of your practices that you're doing just to kind of reinforce, you know what, this is the correct way to go. Because these, these are some practices that have happened from others in the past. Those are two key pieces that I think were pretty important as you think.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:34]: Back to graduate school and the graduate school experiences that you had as you were going through the program and you think back to that period of time. How did you define success for yourself while you were in your programs? And how has this definition changed over the years?

Melissa Winter [00:14:54]: I think the traditional success is if you got an A on the project or the paper, like hey, you got a 4.0 like that success or something high mark to show that you did well on something. However, I think in obviously in a professional role, success is when you're able to serve students. In this case, when student you see the success of others, whether it's they're getting their degree or they have done a great program on campus, or you have helped encourage and increase student enrollment on your campus, increase student satisfaction. There's lots of pieces that you can help impact. There was great attendance at an event and not just the attendance piece, but there was an overall positive feeling by that event happening. So I think it's more about seeing the success of others versus your own success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:50]: So as you Think about other people, other students that are considering graduate school in the future, and you think back to your own graduate education. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduating an education that would help them find success sooner?

Melissa Winter [00:16:06]: I already mentioned this, but one thing is just keep your eyes on the prize, so to speak. Like, stay focused on what you want to do, but also to reach out to people around you. Identify a mentor or someone who can help guide you when you're facing those moments when you're struggling or needing some input on some research or a project. Reach out to individuals who can help guide you through that. You need support. It's silly. Think you can just completely have blinders on and do everything yourself? Having that help really can help you get through it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: Well, Melissa, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journeys today, for sharing the walls that you hit along the road, but also the successes and the turning points. Because I think everyone has to understand that it's not always going to be smooth sailing. There may be things that you have to deal with and things that you have to work on as you are going through this process for yourself. And you definitely have to understand that just because you hit a rough patch doesn't mean you shouldn't keep pushing forward and that you shouldn't prevail. So I really appreciate you sharing that and I truly wish you all the best.

Melissa Winter [00:17:17]: All right, great. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:18]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@uflint.edu.

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This week's episode of Victors in Grad School features an insightful conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Amy Hovey, CEO and Executive Director of the Michigan State Housing Development Authority. Amy shares her unique journey back to graduate education and offers invaluable advice for anyone considering elevating their career with an advanced degree.

Amy's story is one that resonates with working professionals, parents, and lifelong learners alike. After graduating from Alma College, Amy dove into her career—first in the for-profit sector, later discovering her true passion in nonprofit work. She candidly reveals the practical considerations many face: "I knew I wanted to go to graduate school right after undergrad, but I was hesitant because I didn't have any money… I needed to work, and I'm glad I did it that way."

Her decision to pursue a Master of Public Administration at the University of Michigan-Flint was guided by her desire to move into leadership roles within the nonprofit sector. Amy's experience is a testament to the idea that it's never too late to return to the classroom. She emphasizes flexibility—not just in the structure of graduate programs, but in balancing life's many demands. By starting with one evening class while raising four children and working full time, Amy illustrates how setting manageable goals and seeking support can make graduate school an attainable reality.

One of the episode's standout themes is the value of diverse perspectives. Amy describes the richness of conversations with peers from varied backgrounds: "We were all from different types of backgrounds… it really helped diversify my thinking." She also notes how her studies deepened her understanding of complex government programs, which now directly inform her role in public administration.

Amy's advice for prospective graduate students is both encouraging and practical: don't be afraid to work first, take your time, and don't hesitate to ask about program flexibility. "It's not a one size fit all… Ask the questions." Her experience shows how graduate education can be crafted around your life, not the other way around.

Whether you're contemplating a return to school, navigating the balance of work, family, and personal growth, or seeking fresh inspiration, don't miss this uplifting episode. Tune in to hear Amy's full story and gather practical insights that could help shape your own graduate journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that you're on. And it truly is a journey every individual that goes through graduate school is thinking about. Graduate school, is getting ready to graduate from graduate school, is going through their own personal journey, and every one of those journeys is going to be a little bit unique. But there are things that you can do today that will help you to be able to help yourself to find success in this journey, and that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:54]: I every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can talk to you about the experience that they went through going through their own graduate school journey. So today we have another great guest with us. Amy Hovey is with us, and Amy is the CEO and executive director of the Michigan State Housing Development Authority. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own journey and have her share that with you. Amy, thanks so much for being here today.

Amy Hovey [00:01:25]: Yes, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:27]: Well, I'm really looking forward to talking with you today as well. And I know a while back you ended. You did your bachelor's degree at Alma College, and then you went off. You went off and you started working, started having a lot of different experiences that allowed for you to be able to build upon your undergraduate degree. But at some point, at some point in that work journey, you identified for yourself that you wanted to go further in your education. Can you take me back in time? Take me back to that point in time where you said to yourself, I've got to do this. What was it? And what made you decide that graduate school was the next step?

Amy Hovey [00:02:08]: Yeah, so I'm going to say I knew I wanted to go to graduate school right after I graduated from undergrad, but I was hesitant because I didn't have any money. Right. I had already accumulated debt from undergrad, felt like, you know what? I need to work, and I'm glad I did it that way. So I was working and went from for profit to the nonprofit world, which, quite honestly, I just didn't know, as I think most undergrads don't really know the different types of careers that are out there until you get out into the world. And so I found myself loving working for nonprofits. And at that point I realized if I wanted to continue to not just work for nonprofits, but lead nonprofits, I should look at continuing my education. And I actually got an email from U of M Flint that said, come and to our open house for graduate programs. And I thought, huh, Now I never went to that open house, but I still clicked on the links and I looked at the type of programs that were available because I was working in the city of Flint, right in downtown, looked at U of M's campus all the time.

Amy Hovey [00:03:22]: You know, had had used the library before for events. And so I was familiar and comfortable there. And I noticed they had a Master's of Public administration where you could do an emphasis in nonprofit management. And so I set up a meeting and went and talked to an advisor and said, listen, you know, I'm interested in this program. I can't go full time. I had four children and I was working full time and needed to continue to work full time, but I really wanted to do this degree. And they said that was okay. I didn't have to graduate in two years.

Amy Hovey [00:03:58]: Even though the typical program outline was to get your master's in two years, I could actually take longer than that. And so I said, why not? Let's give it a try. And I applied and started that December.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: Now, as I mentioned, you had been out of school for a little bit of time. So as you transition back into school, it is a transition. There are definite things that you have to do to be able to get back into that school mode and get your mind back into that school mode in many different ways. Talk to me about the mindset shifts that you had to do to be able to set yourself up for success in that graduate school journey.

Amy Hovey [00:04:38]: Well, I was really excited. I'm like one of those people, I love school. So I was excited to get back into the classroom. And that was still when we purchased books and you had like a real actual book. And I was excited about getting my student ID with my picture on it. And. And so for me, it was an. It was an exciting time.

Amy Hovey [00:04:57]: I was a little hesitant on how I would balance and make time for my studies. So I started with just one class. So I signed up for a single class. It was in the evening and it was one night a week, right. So it was a long class. It was like a three hour block, I think, but it was just one night a week. And I thought, well, I can do one night a week. And I had to, I think, reprioritize how I spent my downtime.

Amy Hovey [00:05:20]: Right. And so instead of reading books for pleasure, you know, you start reading your homework. Right. Your textbook. You know, I traveled for work a lot during the time I was getting my degree, so I spent a lot of time on airplanes and I wrote my papers. Right. And so you just use the time that you have for school rather than for other things that might take up your time. And for me, it was not a hard shift, but it was something I was really dedicated to making happen.

Amy Hovey [00:05:53]: I also really appreciated being able to just take one class and the flexibility in that. It worked not only for my time schedule, but it worked for my budget to be able to really spread out the cost of grad school and the impact on my family's daily expenses. So. So that was really helpful for me as well. I also just. I love the diversity of the class, the different types of students that were in my classes. You know, I was a Master's of Public Administration, so we had folks that worked for the government, we had folks that work for nonprofits, people who were fresh out of college, those that, like me, were returning. We had people who are like retired police officers that were coming back to get their degrees.

Amy Hovey [00:06:44]: And so the conversations were very rich. It was just a great experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:50]: Now, you talked a little bit about that work life balance, and with kids and with a job and balancing all of that. Throughout the entire graduate program, there had to have been some things that you had to set into motion for yourself to be able to balance all of that for yourself and for your family. Talk to me about that. And what were some of those building blocks that you had to put in place to be able to help you to balance all of those different aspects that would allow for you to be able to get through the program to graduation?

Amy Hovey [00:07:21]: Yeah, I mean, I think primarily as a working mother, I had to make sure that I had childcare. And I'm very lucky. I married and my husband was able to be with the kids in the evenings. As I mentioned, I really took it slow so that I didn't feel like I was missing out on time with my children by doing just a single class a day. So I think that was really helpful, me in balancing being able to do all the things that were a priority for me and for my family. Again, I was lucky. Not everyone has childcare so readily available, but for me, that was like the number one priority was being able to make sure that my kids were cared for. And that allowed me to be Able to come and take classes.

Amy Hovey [00:08:04]: I think the other thing that really struck me was the fact that this was really adding to my work experience, right. And I found the professors at U of M Flint were very flexible. So the program allowed for me to take a couple classes from another school and bring those credits in. And at the time, all of the pro program was in person, right? Every class was in person. But because it allowed me to get approval to bring in a couple additional classes, I was able to look at other universities that had online classes, get preapproval to take those classes. And so I was able to take two classes online from another university and count them towards my graduating credits at U of M Flint. Super helpful to me during a period where my life got very busy and I could not afford that three hours solid an evening, once a week. So that flexibility was helpful to me in being able to balance.

Amy Hovey [00:09:10]: I also took an independent study. So one of the professors connected with me allowed me to take an independent study, which was really great. That was very flexible. It was really at my own pace and having meetings with my professor and. And that allowed me to then that semester do two classes. So, you know, I was able to double up, which allowed me to graduate just a little bit faster than taking one class per. So I found it was a wonderful program. And anytime I had an issue with anything being able to sit down and talk to folks, the professors were easy to work with.

Amy Hovey [00:09:47]: The administrators of the deans of the college. It's very easy to work with, to find solutions to make that balance work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:55]: Now you also, when you're going through graduate school, there are things that you learn inside the classroom, that hard knowledge that they want to make sure that you leave the classroom with. But there's a lot of things that you learn outside of the classroom as well, whether it be from other students, other individuals at the university itself, other contacts, etc. What was the most valuable thing you feel that you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Amy Hovey [00:10:23]: Well, that's an interesting question. I mentioned that my classes were full with very diverse students, right. We were all different. We were all from different types of backgrounds. And so we were able to have conversations and relate our lives and our work experiences differently. And it really helped diversify my thinking. I will tell you that, you know, we tend to live in our own boxes and we're impacted by how our lives live and things that impact our lives. But able to listen and connect with people that are different, that have different experiences, help me look at things completely differently, whether it's how nonprofits are ran and the use of those nonprofits, how it is to balance our time and how other people balance our time, how we read and interpret readings completely differently, really helped me to be much more open minded, and it helped me be better at my current job and being able to do outreach and connect and understand folks within the Flint community as a whole, which was really important to the work I was doing at the time.

Amy Hovey [00:11:32]: I will also say, even though you didn't ask the question yet, Chris, that I learned a lot in the classroom that impacted my work life and how I looked at the things I worked with. So being from a nonprofit, I had worked with the government a lot. Not in government at the time, but outside government. And I was always very frustrated with the bureaucracy, all the regulations, how slow things go, and, you know, had very little patience for that. But in the classes I took through the Master's of Public Administration program, I learned why there are so many regulations around many of the government programs, how those evolved, the purpose of. Of those regulations. And it gave me a different mindset and some patience in dealing with the governmental entities and programs that I was working with at the time, which was super helpful. So I remember reading a book and going, oh, this is why they do what they do.

Amy Hovey [00:12:34]: They're not just trying to be painful and make it difficult to use these programs. There's actually 30, 40, 50 years of influence on these programs is how they got where they are today. And I actually wrote a paper on the Community Development Block Grant program when I was in grad school, and it was an analysis of the history of the program and how I might make that program better, really forcing me to think analytically. And now I find myself working and leading the state agency that administers those same, same CDBG programs from a state level. So, I mean, you really can't get more connected than that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:15]: I think that is great because, I mean, having those opportunities to be able to really connect the neurons. Right. And being able to see how one thing really equates to the next can lead you in so many different directions. Now, as you think about, think back to the experience that you had in graduate school and you think to what you're doing today. Talk to me about how you feel that your graduate school experience impacted what you're doing today and how you pull from that experience on a daily basis.

Amy Hovey [00:13:50]: Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I don't think I would be in my position today without having that degree on my resume. It is meaningful that being in public Administration was important to me enough that I took the time to get a degree and some additional learning in that area. And I think that showed, you know, the folks that hired me that this line of work is important and that I took the time to learn. I did not know when I took this program that I would be leaving the nonprofit world and moving into government. So I was very fortunate to me that this master's program really covered both nonprofit and government work and public authority work. So it really got me to where I am today. That being said, it also, in my current role, really taught me a lot about the history of these programs, what they mean, how as a public official, I have responsibilities to the public and to listening to the public, as well as taking utmost care of taxpayer dollars, which a lot of these books talk about the history of programs, how they're appropriated and why they're appropriated. And so it really gave me a sense of importance of what the role the government should be playing and the intended uses of the programs that I administer today.

Amy Hovey [00:15:16]: So it couldn't be any more closely related to my learning in grad school, to my job today than it is. Right. There's direction. Connect there. And I'm really, really appreciative for the learning I did at U of M. Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:29]: As you think about your graduate school experience, what's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Amy Hovey [00:15:37]: I think it's important to work first. And I know I said the only reason I worked first was because I didn't have funding to do it, which is the truth. But lucky for me, it's really important, in my opinion, to have some work experience, because how I approach grad school was totally, totally different than I approached undergrad. Right. Like, this was important learning for me. I was much more engaged in learning in grad school than I was in undergrad, even though I graduated with honors from both. So it wasn't about getting the good grades, but it was really about being able to do a deeper level of analytical thinking and understanding the application of what you're learning to, to what you do day to day in your career. I don't think I made that connection on undergrad, but I certainly did in grad school.

Amy Hovey [00:16:30]: So one of the things that I wish I would have known and been less worried about was it's great to work a little bit before you go to grad school. It also helped me refine the type of program I wanted. Had I went right after, I probably would have went into an MBA program, which would have been fine. I'm sure I would have had a great learning experience experience in an MBA program, but it wouldn't have been aligned to where my passion was because I didn't know what my passion was going to be when I was 21 and first graduated from undergraduate school. So I think it's important. And something I learned was, it's not bad. It's actually great to get a little work experience under your belt before you return to grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:10]: Finally, as you look back on your own graduate school experience and you think about others, others that are thinking about graduate school. And you've given some tips already. But what are, what are some additional tips that you might want to offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Amy Hovey [00:17:27]: Yeah, I mean, I think just do it. Just do it. If you have a passion for learning, there are so many ways in which you can approach graduate school. It's not a one size fit all. If you're worried about being able to fit it within your schedule or within your financial budget, sit down with the university, go through what those options may look like and go on a plan that does work for you. U of M Flint was so flexible when I was there that if I had to take a semester off because I had something going on with work or with my family, I could take a semester off and not be thrown out of the program. Right. There was extra time built in to allow for me to do what I needed to do to graduate.

Amy Hovey [00:18:10]: And I don't know that everyone knows that. I think folks think that it's pretty rigid and it's unattainable, but I think it really is attainable for almost everyone who's interested in doing it and being able to fit it in to their budget as well as into their work schedule and really working with. Can I get credits for work? I do? Can I, can I bring in some credits from a different program? I mean, if you don't ask the questions, you won't get the good answers. So ask the questions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:42]: Well, Amy, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journey today, for sharing the experiences that you had as you were working and going to school and how that impacted what you're doing today. I truly appreciate your time and for what you shared and I wish you all the best.

Amy Hovey [00:19:02]: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:03]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options. The University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more than information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:32]: I look forward to speaking with you.

Christopher Lewis [00:19:33]: Again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad@umflint.edu.

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The path to and through graduate school is rarely a straight line, and in a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Hilary Murmers, LGBTQIA Coordinator at the University of Michigan, Flint, shares her remarkable journey—a testament to resilience, clarity of purpose, and the power of community.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the episode begins by exploring Hilary's academic background. After graduating from the University of Rochester with a Bachelor of Arts in English and Women's Studies, Hilary faced early rejection in her first attempt to enter PhD programs in gender studies. Instead of feeling defeated, she embraced diverse work experiences, which led her to a pivotal summer at Girls Leadership, a camp focused on the social-emotional development of girls and gender-diverse youth.

It was there, surrounded by important questions about identity and sexuality and feeling both unprepared and excited, that Hilary found her next calling: becoming a sex educator. "I started doing research in how does someone become a sex educator?... That led me to finding the graduate program I ended up in at Widener University." Widener's unique master's program in human sexuality matched both her interests and her need for a queer-affirming, inclusive environment—a critical consideration she encourages other queer students to weigh when choosing programs.

Hilary's graduate school experience included enormous challenges. Just as she was finding her stride, she was diagnosed with a rare cancer, forcing her to take medical leave and pause her studies. Even after recovery, she faced additional bumps: shifting program structures, a new student cohort, and the abrupt move to virtual instruction during the COVID-19 pandemic. "It felt uncomfortable, it felt bumpy... there were a lot of bumps and transitions that made it uncomfortable, and a lot of decision points of 'do I keep going?'"

Through it all, Hilary credits her faculty advisor and perseverance for helping her navigate the many pivots. She also highlights the importance of clarity—knowing her "why" helped her persist: "As we face those bumps, we have to have some motivation to keep going... Graduate school can be fun, but it can also be really hard."

This episode is a must-listen for anyone considering grad school, especially those facing uncertainty or adversity. Hilary's story reminds us that while the journey may be unpredictable, support, adaptability, and a clear sense of purpose can see you through to your goals.

Tune in to the full episode to hear more about Hilary's inspiring path—and let it fuel your own journey through graduate school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find.

Hilary Murmers [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week, as we always are, talking about your journey, your journey toward graduate school, through graduate school, beyond graduate school. Because it is so important to be able to look at all aspects of ways in which you can be successful. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to identify ways in which you can find success sooner. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to understand the journey that they went on, to help you better have some tools for your toolbox to understand what they went through, because what they went through might provide you with some understanding of things that you could go through, but also some things that you can prepare for as you're thinking about the future.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: So I'm really excited to be able to have our guest today. Hilary Murmurs is with us today, and Hilary is the LGBTQIA coordinator at the University of Michigan, Flint. And she has her own journey, and she's had her own journey, and I'm really excited to be able to talk with her about her journey, to have her share that with you. Hillary, thanks so much for being here today.

Hilary Murmers [00:01:35]: Yeah, thanks for having me, Chris. I'm happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: Now, I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Rochester, where you were working on that Bachelor of Arts in English and Women's Studies, and then you went off, you went off, you had got some experiences, and at some point you decided to continue on, continue on to get that master's degree. Can you take me back in time to that point in your life and what was going through your head as you made that choice that you were going to go to graduate school, and why was it the right time?

Hilary Murmers [00:02:06]: Yeah, that's a great question. I tried to go to graduate school before. I ultimately did when I was graduating with my bachelor's in English and Gender Studies. I had applied to some PhD programs in gender studies and didn't get into a single one, which is interesting now. Like, I do the work I'm doing in higher ed, but it was kind of failed first attempt. And so I took a few years and worked and had a lot of different experiences. And then I had one summer where I worked at a summer camp called Girls Leadership. That's all about social emotional development and girls and gender diverse young people and being openly queer.

Hilary Murmers [00:02:47]: In that space, I was receiving a lot of questions about identities and sexuality, safer sex that I frankly felt totally unprepared to answer. But I was really excited by. I was really like, this is cool and interesting to me. And so I started doing research in how does someone become a sex educator? And what do careers in sex and sexuality education look like? And that led me to finding the graduate program I ended up in at Widener University. It's a really unique master's degree in human sexuality. It's one of the only, like, specifically human sexuality degrees in the country. And at the time, I also had a full time job that had some tuition benefits that I could take to another institution. I was working at my alma mater at University of Rochester.

Hilary Murmers [00:03:40]: And so I was like, let's go. I'm going to apply to graduate school and become a sex educator. So, yeah, I applied in spring of 2016 and started in fall of 2016. So three years after I graduated with my bachelor's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:54]: Talk to me a little bit about what you were just talking about, because you were talking about that there definitely were some things that you had to consider being queer and thinking about graduate school where you fit and what was the right fit in that regard. I know you ended up at Widener, but talk to me about as someone entering into a graduate space like that and being queer, as you mentioned, what were some of the things that you had to truly consider for yourself in regards to safety, in regards to other aspects that you were looking for in a graduate program that might help others that might be queer as well, that they might need to think about in their own journey.

Hilary Murmers [00:04:33]: I think there's ways in which the institution that I went to was not the biggest question for me. Widener itself, like, is not an institution that I have a lot of attachment to, but for me, it was really dialing down into finding the program that felt like I would be getting the education that I needed and that it was a space where there were lots of queer and trans people, where there were conversations about queer and trans identities, like, baked into the program. It was a place where, like, when I looked at the materials online, frankly, I saw people who looked like me and I felt like it was a place where I could fit in. Part of my application experience was also doing a interview. So I got to go to campus and meet some current students and meet faculty members and just felt a really strong connection of this. Feels Like a place where I can be safe. I think it's also really important to name that I am white, I am cisgender. I have these other privileged identities that make safety less of an issue for me than for others in the queer community.

Hilary Murmers [00:05:47]: But yeah, for me it was really about dialing into like this is exactly the thing I want to study and these are the people I want to study it with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:56]: You know, every student as they go into graduate school, go through some transitions, academic transitions, psychological transitions, social transitions. And as you transition in, you go through some transitions. But then as you're going through those transitions as well as you learn more and as you connect or disconnect, talk to me about those transitions for you. And what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and also what did you have to do as you went through graduate school to set yourself up for success and maintain that success throughout the graduate school program?

Hilary Murmers [00:06:32]: Yeah, so I had a bumpy ride through graduate school due to life circumstances. So when I started my program in fall of 2016, I had a full time job in Rochester, New York. And the way the program was structured is that you would spend one weekend a month in person. Widener is outside of Philly. So I was working full time during the week and then one weekend a month going down to Philly for a full weekend of classes and then doing homework in the evening or trying to get up at like 5:30 in the morning to figure out, be able to do my classwork. But my first year was maybe the easiest because of the things that came after. So I had a really rare and unexpected cancer diagnosis after completing my first year in graduate school. So in the summer of 2017, I was diagnosed with a rare cancer called osteosarcoma.

Hilary Murmers [00:07:33]: And I had no choice but to put everything on pause. I took a medical leave from my graduate program. I stopped working and only focused on my cancer treatment for a full calendar year. And I'm very happy and lucky to be in good health now so many years later. And then I took also a full year to recover from that experience, physically, emotionally. I bopped around and slept on my friends couches all over the country. I lived with my brother and took care of my baby niece for a few months of that. But yeah, I really kind of had to take back control.

Hilary Murmers [00:08:12]: What I think when someone has a really severe medical experience, you lose a lot of control. So I spent my gap year, I called it, just being in control of my decisions. So finally in fall of 2019, I felt ready to go back to school to restart my program. But as happens, the program had really done some big shifts internally while I was away. So obviously there was a whole new cohort of students that I was working with who became my peers. But also the course requirements were different and some of the courses I had already taken were no longer offered. Just like that adjustment that happens right now. I work in higher ed.

Hilary Murmers [00:08:56]: I see it happening all the time of programs shifting. So I ended up having to work really closely with my faculty advisor to figure out how to apply the courses I had and stay on the new track that they had developed in order to get back on track, basically and try to complete my master's degree. So it took me, in the end, three years of coursework and five years total to complete my master's degree in human sexuality. Also within that time was the COVID lockdowns. So the program shifted from everyone traveling, many people from like all over the Eastern seaboard for a weekend of in person class in Philadelphia, which was really how the program was conceptualized, was that like people spend their weekend in these intensive courses to all of a sudden we're virtual and trying to do a. You know, I think our Saturday schedule was usually 9 to 6, and then Sunday was 10 to 4. Trying to translate that into the virtual format was really challenging, I think, for faculty and students going through it. So, yeah, when I started back in 2019, it felt uncomfortable, it felt bumpy, it felt like, oof.

Hilary Murmers [00:10:12]: Because it didn't feel easy to come back in. I had wanted it to feel like smooth and easy. And I encountered all these just logistical challenges of figuring out my course planning and then going fully remote was not the experience I think anyone wanted at that time. So, yeah, I ended up finishing in spring of 2021, fully remotely. Some of the students who had become my new peer cohort and I did a sisterhood of the traveling cap and gown and we like mailed one cap and gown all over to each other and took graduation photos. So, yeah, it was wild. There were a lot of bumps and like you said, Chris, transitions that made it uncomfortable and that there's a of decision points of like, do I keep going?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:56]: That can definitely be challenging. And I. I've said before, and I'll say it again, not every graduate school experience is going to go smoothly. There may be bumps in the road, there may be pivots that you have to make, just like you heard Hillary say. And what I am hearing Hillary say though, is that don't let those bumps stop you from achieving the goals that you've achieved for yourself, that you might have to pivot, you might have to do things in a little bit different way, but continue to push forward, continue to work toward the goal and work with your advisors, work with the faculty and identify other ways to do it, because there may be other ways that you can do it in the end.

Hilary Murmers [00:11:38]: Yeah, absolutely. My faculty advisor was a fabulous support to get me through those bumpy transitions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:44]: As I know that initially you said that you had looked at a PhD program, and then you ended up in a master's program. If you had to do it all over again, would you choose the same. The same program or path and why? Why or why not?

Hilary Murmers [00:11:55]: That's a great question. You know, the PhD programs I was initially interested were like PhDs in gender studies, with the goal of becoming a faculty member, which now, knowing what I know about higher education, and also having friends who did go through a PhD and really, frankly struggled to find work at all or find work that sustains them, I feel really grateful that my PhD in the humanities didn't work out. It works for some people. And those tenured faculty positions for humanities PhDs are very, very few in number. So for me, my master's in human sexuality has served me really well. I'm able to do this work that is really meaningful to me. And I'm working in the field of higher education in a very different way than when I was 21 and graduating from college. I.

Hilary Murmers [00:12:52]: I would be. But I love it. And so, yeah, I would do the same thing. I would love to ease over some of those bumps, but we don't get that choice. I would do the same thing. I'm grateful that I didn't get in during my first graduate application attempt and that life took me another way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:08]: So with all of the ups and downs and the kind of pivots that you had to go through, you definitely had to do a lot of balancing, especially as you were going into the medical diagnosis and starting and then having to take that break. And a lot of students do have to figure out what that balance is, the balance between school, work, family, personal responsibilities, whatever it might be. So talk to me about balance and what you had to do to be able to find that optimal balance as you were going through that graduate program.

Hilary Murmers [00:13:39]: Yeah, you know, I think that during my first year of grad school, when I was working full time and going to graduate school part time, that was really challenging to find the balance of just. There are only so many hours in the day, and I have to Spend a good chunk of those hours asleep. So that was a really hard year to figure out. Like, when in the world do you do all this coursework? And sometimes it was like during my lunch hour at work that would like, you know, quietly bleed over into the hour past my lunch hour if I could swing it. And, you know, I'm not a person. I still don't have kids. I didn't have kids. I didn't have major caregiving responsibilities.

Hilary Murmers [00:14:22]: So, yeah, for me, the balance was always like, internal of, like, how do I manage being a worker and a student? And then when I returned to graduate school, I was also working with some new disabilities from my cancer experience. I had a. I have a mobility disability now. I am hard of hearing now. And so also finding. And just my capacity was a lot lower than it was before I had a cancer experience. So when I returned to graduate school, I wasn't working. I was just in graduate school and I had home responsibilities.

Hilary Murmers [00:15:01]: But the balance at that point became like, how do I manage taking care of myself and doing school?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:08]: I really appreciate you sharing that. And I think every one of us as we go through our graduate school experience, we have to find what that is for ourselves. And I guess with the experience that you had in looking at your own graduate school experience, and it was a. It was different than other students have had, but it could be similar in many ways for some as well. As you think about the experience that you had and how it changed you and who you are today, how do you feel that your graduate school experience changed the way that you think work or approach problems?

Hilary Murmers [00:15:50]: I think that I gained a lot more compassion for bumps in the road for myself and for everyone. I had been a totally traditional college student. I was not a person who really struggled in school. And so, yeah, having this big interruption really helped me see and experience the path winds and we don't know what's coming around the corner. And I think I bring that to every part of my work and life now. Like, I do a lot of, like, one on one work with LGBTQ students at U of M Flint who are navigating all kinds of life challenges. And there's a way in which part of what we have to do is, like, just keep going through it. Even if we can't see what's around that corner.

Hilary Murmers [00:16:39]: We have to keep taking the next step to find out and to be able to navigate as we reach those turns. So, yeah, just a lot more compassion for, like, sometimes hits the fan and then you have to clean it all.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:51]: Up as you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school and you think back to your own graduate school experience and what you went through. And talking to those individuals that are thinking about graduate school, what are some pieces of advice that you would offer them that would help them to find success sooner?

Hilary Murmers [00:17:11]: I would encourage folks to get really clear on your goals for graduate school. What are you hoping to achieve? For me going in, I wanted to become a sex educator. The other side of it. I'm working in higher ed in an adjacent way to the field of sex education. But my goal of getting to have conversations with young people about identities and sexuality and gender is present through it all. And as we face those bumps, we have to have some motivation to keep going. Some driving force of this is why this matters. Graduate school can be fun, but it can also be really hard.

Hilary Murmers [00:17:51]: And so having a lot of clarity internally about this is why this goal matters to me. And this is why I'm continuing to persist as much as I can. Yeah, really helps me feel connected to my goals in graduate school. Also, faculty and staff on campuses are here to help you. That is the only reason they receive a salary is to help you. So use those folks. Get to know your faculty members, find supportive staff on campus, find spaces to plug into on campus, because you just never know what will come around the corner. And then that staff or faculty member who you connected to can be a really important resource.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:29]: Well, Hilary, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for your willingness to share your own journey today, for sharing the ups, the downs, the in betweens that you went through yourself. I truly want to say thank you for sharing that and I wish you all the best.

Hilary Murmers [00:18:45]: Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:46]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is often described as a journey—one filled with peaks of accomplishment and valleys of self-doubt. This week’s "Victors in Grad School" episode with Dr. Lucia Juarez is a must-listen for anyone navigating the challenges of advanced study, or even just considering taking the leap into grad school.

Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the conversation delves deep into the realities of pursuing a graduate degree across different countries and cultures, and the unique obstacles that arise, especially when juggling family, working in a second language, and adjusting to new academic systems. Dr. Juarez shares her own candid story, from earning scholarships and moving continents to facing the all-too-common “imposter syndrome” and the myth that working harder is always the answer.

One of the most powerful takeaways from Dr. Juarez is that success in graduate school is not solely about relentless effort. Instead, it’s about working smarter—not harder—by building holistic routines that protect your wellbeing, energy, and focus. Dr. Juarez’s personal wake-up call came when her all-in approach to her PhD left her physically and mentally exhausted. Recognizing the unsustainable pace, she began to reimagine her process, experimenting with practical strategies like the Pomodoro technique for focused productivity, intentional breaks, and prioritizing self-care.

These experiences led her to develop the SmartPhD System, a framework that supports students on key dimensions: self-care, mindset, attainable goals, reflection, time management, planning, and positive habits. Whether you’re struggling with motivation, managing multiple responsibilities, or hitting a productivity wall, Dr. Juarez’s system offers a toolkit for making consistent, meaningful progress.

The episode also touches on an often-overlooked aspect of the PhD journey—reconnecting with your original passion. Keeping sight of your purpose can help reignite motivation during tough times. Dr. Juarez encourages listeners to regularly reflect on their “why” and embrace the fullness of their journey, setbacks and all.

If you’re on the verge of giving up or simply searching for ways to be more effective and balanced, this conversation is for you. Dr. Juarez’s insights and empathy remind us that you’re not alone and that small shifts can lead to significant change—not just in grad school, but throughout your career.

Tune in to this episode for practical advice, reassurance, and the inspiration to build your own sustainable system for success in graduate school and beyond!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it is a journey. No matter if you are just starting to think about graduate school, maybe you've applied and gotten accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:32]: No matter where you are, there are things that you can do at every step of the journey that can help you to be successful in that overall journey. That's why this podcast exists. It is here to help you to be able to identify maybe some stumbling blocks, maybe some things along the way that you can do, to be able to help yourself to prepare yourself well, or find things that you can do, some tools for your toolbox that will help you to be able to have that smooth sailing as you go through graduate school. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you to see things a little bit differently and also think about things in a little bit of a different way. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Lucia Juarez is with us today and Lucia has a very interesting journey and we're going to be talking about her own educational journey, but also a program that she started called SmartPhD that is helping individuals that are going for that PhD to do things smarter and to really think about what they're doing to be able to have that positive, successful experience through the PhD. I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Lucia, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:01:44]: Hi, Chris, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here because I think one of the things I would love to share with you today is how when I was doing my own PhD, I thought the only way to progress was by working harder and harder. And that really affected me. It almost broke me. So one of the things that I really want to share today is how I managed to find my way around creating a system. As you said, that work helping me and is helping others to finish the dissertation faster without compromising their well being, which is so important. It's becoming more and more important to protect that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:20]: Well, before we jump into the SmartPhD program, because I really want to delve into that, I want to learn a little bit about your own journey because I know you did Your undergraduate work in Argentina, because you are from Argentina. That's not where you live now. We'll have some spoilers here in just a little bit of where she lives now, but you started in Argentina, and at some point in that journey, I know that you had an opportunity or you started to think about the next steps. So you were getting that bachelor's degree, and at some point you said, I want to keep going. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that going to graduate school was the next step?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:02:56]: Thanks, Chris. I think, to be honest, I was always curious about teaching and researching, even before finishing my undergraduate studies. So I started doing, like, advanced courses. I was very interested in heritage conservation, and I got a scholarship as soon as I finished. So I finished in December, in January, applied for a scholarship, and in April, I was traveling to Spain to do my master's degree, and I really, really loved it. And I lived in Spain. I never actually came back home after that. So it's been more than 20 years of that.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:03:31]: And years after that, I got a scholarship to do my PhD. Related with heritage conservation as well was more like industrial heritage. I wanted to work something related with Scottish architecture and the connection with Argentina. So Scott, seems like the right place. And I got the scholarship to do it here in Edinburgh University, and I've been here since then. I have two Scottish boys. So staying here? No, I don't know for how long, but I stay here for now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:00]: So talk to me a little bit about that transition, because every person goes through transitions, and now you went through some big transitions, going from one country to another country to a further country, going from different language models to different ways of teaching. What did you have to do as you were transitioning from your undergrad to your master's, from your master's to working, from working back into your PhD. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to remain successful through that entire educational journey?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:04:34]: I think it's successful. Sometimes it feels like a big word, Chris. I know because I've been listening some of your previous podcasts as well. There are many people in the academic world that suffer from imposter syndrome. Or we have this thing about not feeling good enough, academic enough. For me, my English was never enough. Actually, I was doubting. I am good enough in my English to be in podcast like this one, you know, because you feel like maybe because of my accent, will people really understand when I'm talking? Like, we have so many doubts.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:05:06]: And I was listening to some of your previous guests, I think it was Dr. Julie Snyder. She was saying something about transitions as you were saying. And she was saying like it wasn't a smart decision to stay in the campus. She was from the master to the PhD to make things easier. I think we want to look at things to make things easier for us. That's the smart way to do. But not always you have the option if you have a scholarship, you take it or you don't take it.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:05:37]: And, and for me, as you said before in another country, in another language, another way of doing without family support, without friends, I was like, at least I came here with my husband and that was nice company to have. And you don't feel that you need to start everything from scratch. But it was a big challenge. So when you were saying about being successful, I think sometimes it's not so linear. So there is a lot of ups and downs. And I think what we tried to do is these downs not to be going so deep. What happened to me, I think I was so deep that I needed to make a change. So when I was there at the beginning, I thought that working harder was the only option.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:06:25]: It was because to that challenges that I was saying about being in another country, writing your dissertation in another language, trying to adapt. I also had my first baby in the middle of the way. So it was super challenging. And I don't think I can talk about being successful until now. I can see in perspective because to be honest, I wasn't feeling that way at all. I was self doubting myself. I have this feeling that I wasn't good enough for my dissertation and I wasn't good enough to be a mom. It was really, really tough.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:07:03]: So I thought the only way to be success stressful was by working harder. And the problem was I was taking. So my days weren't really productive. So I started taking hours from the night and I wasn't resting at the beginning I thought, well, it is what it is, I need to do it. There is, there is no other way. But I ended up with there was a point I couldn't move forward. I had a sciatica problem, I couldn't move meaning I couldn't do much work on my dissertation. And also this is heartbroken.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:07:36]: I couldn't play with my baby. And that thing that you want you to do, that is progress in your dissertation, you need to stop everything because you cannot progress at all. I was having migraines. I developed tendinitis in my hand for working with a mouse for such a Long hours. So I went to see the gp, the doctor here, and he said, you need to stop, you need to go, you need to. He wrote me a letter to take it to the university, to the disability department so they can adapt my desk. He said, you need to do Pilates classes two times a week. And when I was listening to all this, Chris, I thought, this one is crazy.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:08:16]: He has no idea what doing a PhD is about. You know, like, I'm trying to use every minute I have so I can be with my son and working, like, who has time to go to the gym, you know? But at the same time, I thought, well, I cannot keep going in the same way. And that was a red flag I couldn't ignore. So I needed to stop and reflect a little bit about what, what I needed to do differently. Definitely. I started doing these Pilates classes. I changed my desk, I adapted more. I was trying to sleep more.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:08:51]: Headaches I alleviated a bit. But I was. I think it was something that came with me all the way until the end of my dissertation, until I finished. But there was something that I started to feel better. But they're still not making the progress I hoped I would have with putting some things in place. And I was having a conversation with my husband about what he can do or what help I will need to make more progress. And I would like to highlight this, something that some of your guests talk about earlier as well, or some of your episodes about having this support system, family, friends, mentors, coaches. So it's so important that we can ask for help as well.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:09:39]: But I said, you know, what I need is time. I need time to work on my dissertation. Because we were here with no family support, we need to pay for private nursery, and that's very expensive in the uk, so we never could actually afford more than three days. I also have a conversation with my supervisor about if I could change like a part time because I was a full time PhD student. And he said, you cannot change after halfway. You need to finish now as a full time student. So I needed to do the work of a full time, five days in three days, because that's what I could pay. And my husband said, well, we cannot pay more, but I can.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:10:20]: Instead of you dropping our son to nursery and I picking him up, I'll do both, so you have a little bit more of time. I said, well, that would give me one, two hours more per day. I can do something with that. And I remember going to the office, so excited about, this is the day I'm Going to make massive progress. I was there and around. Like I arrived early, around 8, I was already sitting on my desk. And around 7, Chris, not 7, around 3pm, I realized I had like 20 tabs open. I was reading something, but I realized I was looking at the screen, I was reading something, but I was like, I wasn't really understanding when I was reading.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:11:05]: I was like, where am I? What am I reading about? Why I'm reading this? What was this 20 tabs that I have open and why I'm here. It's been like seven hours here, not making progress. And I started feeling so guilty as well. I'm not with my son because I supposed to be here working and working, working, but I'm not progressing. I started crying. It was horrible. Like I felt so bad about myself. My PhD, me as a mum again, another red flag I couldn't ignore.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:11:41]: This wasn't sustainable anymore. But the thing is, it was clear that it wasn't just about having more time. I needed something different. So I thought it was time. But it wasn't just time. I need a strategy. I needed to know what I was doing. I didn't need 20 tabs open on my laptop.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:12:00]: So I was having a conversation with a friend who also have twins at the same time I have my sunbed and she said, I'm using Pomodoro technique. Have you ever tried? I said, no. What's that about? She said, well, you focus for 25 minutes, then you have a break of five minutes and then you go back to the task. And I thought, oh, this will help with the. This not like reading without really knowing what I'm reading about. Like I can't focus for 20, 25 minutes. So I was stopping and reflecting off what I can do different, what can be differently for me so I can make more progress. That it wasn't necessarily having more time because when you have a scholarship, although it's wonderful.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:12:39]: And I was feeling lucky as we, as we usually feel when we have this, it's not. But if I didn't finish on time, I needed to return the money. So there was a lot of press pressure. And because I only could work three times a week, I really need to put a strategy in place. One of the main things that I needed to think about was this. Chris, I know that you mentioned your daughter. Sometimes, like sometimes we worry we are maybe trying to work and thinking how our kids are doing. I wasn't really present and I needed to do something about that because I thought there is no point of me Being at work, thinking about my son and being with my son, feeling guilty because I wasn't doing PhD work.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:13:23]: So I try meditation and that really helped to be more present. So I just started having this strategy. I will go, my husband will take care of dropping, picking up. I will go to the office early, I'll do like a 10 minutes meditation only I will walk on my way. So I'll do some exercise that the doctor asked me to do and I was feeling better about that. So I will cycle or I will walk, I will arrive early, I'll do some meditation and I'll start doing the pomodoro technique. And the good thing about that is that I started making progress. And when you start making progress, you get some momentum as well.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:14:01]: And I brought like more energy. And I started thinking like, what were the other things that weren't working? And I started working in my distractions, what I can do with my phone. Then I realized, well, this thing alarms sounded like 25 minutes. Sometimes it's disturbing. What about. I think I can concentrate for 40 minutes instead of the. So I was listening to me, what was working, what wasn't working, paying more attention. So I started to be much more productive in the same time that before I wasn't really producing.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:14:31]: So doing these things, I got to the end. But Chris, I always remember this, holding the whole thing because at that time was in person, I needed to print it, I give it in the office. I think everyone is doing it online now. But I remember like, oh my gosh, I could have done this in less time, with less waste of energy, fewer tears. And I think that's what I want to do now, you know, now if, if I have to go. But of course it's late for me now. I think I wasted energy, I compromised my well being. I didn't go into details.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:15:11]: But sometimes that affect your relationships. You are moody, you're tired, you're frustrated because you're not making the progress that you are hoping. But it's not just about hope, isn't it? It's about like a strategy that will work for you. Because something that happened to me, I don't know if this will resonate with you because I know that you, you talk with a lot of people and sometimes people have like recipes or do this or that. As it was, for example, for the pomodoro technique, just you feel, oh, this is not for me or this won't work, this is too strict or this is too this or too that. And you feel, and I think many Times in the academic world, we normalizing that thing with the effort and do it more and more and more. We don't even think that there is an easier, better, more enjoyable way. It doesn't seem like it's something that you can actually have, but it is possible.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:16:02]: I know that everyone has their own journey and you listen to so many people in this podcast, but there's many.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:09]: Times where I remember that feeling of being a zombie in graduate school where you're losing sleep, you're trying to balance everything. I was lucky enough that in my doctorate I got my coursework before we had our first child, but I was in my dissertation phase while we had our young child. So you did have to try to carve out time to be able to have that focus time so that you didn't feel like you were taking away from your family in that way. And I know that feeling of being a zombie like you were talking about and where you were kind of clocked out per se and not being able to get things accomplished help you in developing that smart PhD system that I mentioned earlier. And I guess that sounds like from what you just said, that what you learned in this moment was really that turning point for yourself of how it changed your approach to academic life. But then I guess I look at it and think, as you look back at that now and you work with other students, what did that period of time do for you that now you try to use your system and you try to help others in learning so they don't repeat the same issue?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:17:14]: I think it wasn't so straight away. So what I was sharing my story is with the time because I was a tutor at Edinburgh University and I was doing some teaching and I started paying attention of sometimes my students. Well, they knew about the topic. Some just wasn't reflected in their grades. So I was paying attention of why or what was going on. And some of them were having some health issues. I have a student that was depressed, so the medication she was taking was making her like a bit dizzy. I have other students that were brilliant, but they didn't know how to express their idea in written.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:17:51]: So it wasn't about the norms, knowledge on the things. So I put some effort in looking for tools or things that will help them with clarity and things like that. So when I decided to become a coach because I realized I enjoy most helping students and helping them with the tools and that and when I started listening to so many PhD students is when I was thinking about my own experience as well. So it wasn't like I finished my own PhD thinking oh, I got this, this system created. It was after listening to so many students that I realized like wait a minute, I'm listening to students all over the world and somehow any challenges that they were having were similar to the ones I had. And somehow they will be related with self care mindset, including the imposter syndrome and attainable goals. Because sometimes we are over optimistic and we are not realistic about our realities. For example, in my case, only working three days, having a baby, not having family support maybe would be different for other students working five days with not the same family.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:18:57]: So trying to adapt these goals for every individual was another thing. So that will be the A for attainable goals. Also realize that many students, as I did before, I have this big problem. We don't stop to reflect. It seems like we are so busy that reflection seems like something we cannot afford when actually you don't need a lot, like five minutes. And I in my own experience, because I didn't have option as well. But I don't think the people I'm working with or other PhD students, they need to suffer as I did to realize, oh, I need reflection, you know, if they can reflect now, like what is working, what is not working, what I can do different, they can definitely make a change that transformation. Sometimes you don't need to go that low to make it better for you or more successful or make a transformation that will make a most successful journey anyway without the suffering that I had to go through.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:19:57]: So then we have the T from time management, which is very common around a PhD student. And as I said, it was an issue that I had. It was not just about time management, also task and energy management. And that was happening in that day that I had this crash because I had the time, but I wasn't managing it properly. Then you have this idea about the P from planning and priorities. Because for example, that day I could have been productive if I knew what was my priority that day Instead of the 20 tab, what if I had just one tab with the right thing that I needed to do? So it's so important that we have all these components and something that I see very often. Most of the PhD that come to me for help are usually in the last period of their dissertation because they are running out of time and they feel, oh, I was neglecting help before, now I don't have any other option. And the first thing that we need to see is what are the priorities, what is really important in the message that they want to Go to share from their dissertation.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:21:01]: I have. I don't know how was your experience Chris with your own dissertation but and mine at the end was. I was removing paragraph that took me months to create because it was easy to remove it than to try to fix it. And when they were gone I realized they weren't really important. So there's so much time that we put in there and we are putting part of our life in there as well. Maybe we don't need that, but we need to think is this really a priority? Is this really important? And also sometimes the priority it might be being with your son that week like it was for me last week. Like sometimes it's like we are a hole and sometimes we forget that. And then the other thing about that successful over time.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:21:46]: I think if we put these things that you create that system that works and you're doing consistently. So for example for me at that time doing the meditation, checking emails only at the afternoon, for example. I'll give you an example that I see this very often in terms of habits and routines. Sometimes I ask the students like when they feel more focused for writing. And the majority said first thing in the morning. And when I ask what do you usually do in the mornings? They say I'm taking emails. So they are not developing yet the self awareness of how they work best. And they are not putting in a system that work consistently.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:22:25]: So they need if they know that they work best writing in the morning. And they do this the habits and routine and always write in the morning, check emails in the afternoon or lunchtime, always go to bed at the same time you do this then to be honest, the body is asking you for that. It's asking you for the rest. It's asking you for the exercise, it's asking you for the time to write. It's asking you to enjoy time with friends and family so you will take most and your life is more enjoyable as well. It doesn't feel so hard either. And to be honest, the deep from drive of meditation motivation sometimes comes naturally. When you start seeing that you're more effective, more productive, that brings more energy.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:23:10]: And that's why I like the idea of the system also because it happened to me. For example, that day that I was describing you earlier, I was motivated. I thought this is the day I'm going to make progress. But so some people say well, I need motivation. I was motivated that day and I couldn't make any progress because I didn't have the plan, I didn't have that strategy. The priorities That a specific task with attainable goal, that this was part of the bigger planning that I needed to have done. So that's why I like talking about that system. Because you need all of these elements.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:23:44]: You need to be rested, to be focused, you need to believe that you can do the work. So you need that mindset. It works everything together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:52]: One of the things that you talk about when I was kind of looking at your system is you talk about reconnecting, reconnecting with the passion that led someone to start their PhD in the first place. Because everybody has that reason. Because not everybody wants to get a PhD. Not everybody wants to get a terminal degree and go through the process and going through that further education. What strategies do you use to help students rediscover that spark when they feel either stuck or burned out?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:24:22]: That's a very special question, Chris, because although everyone is different, I always try to let them think why they wanted to do the PhD in the first place. Because many kind of forget they are going in a loop about that frustration and they forget that big picture. Most of the people when I asked this, the majority said or reflect on that contribution to knowledge they wanted to do. So. What is interesting about that as well is like most of the time they cannot make this contribution to knowledge if they don't finish their dissertation. And that's why important that they work mainly in the priorities or at least trying to have a full draft before polishing and making it perfect. But the other thing is you say something about the sparkle. Like sometimes I like seeing the PhD like a long relationship with a partner.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:25:20]: So I always remember, I tell this story sometimes, Chris, that I was about to start my PhD. I was renting a room, My husband didn't move straight away. I was on my own for a couple of months before and Cloud May introduced me to a friend and he said, look, he's finishing his PhD. And I said, oh, I'm about to start. And he said, I can tell that you are about to start because your eyes are still shining. And I didn't get it until later on in my PhD journey. But something that I see now is like as in a long relationship, you know, maybe the sparkle and the brightness, it's not the same either. But it might be an opportunity to learn different things.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:26:03]: For example, if your relationship with your partner is different from the beginning, but maybe it's the maturity, is there another learning experience there? Are you learning a different way to deal with things in the relationship? Are you managing? Are you improving your other soft skills in the way. So I think we do that with a PhD. You don't necessarily need to have, have that sparkle, but you can keep the motivation as soon as you feel that you are fulfilling the purpose, that you are giving something. I think many students feel, Chris, that they are putting so much from their life, their energy. They invest in money and sometimes with their own body, as I did with I was suffering. What do they get in return? Sometimes the fetus is not. Not in a good balance. So I think it's very important that the students can see what the PhD means to them, how they will feel when they finished.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:27:03]: And also it's not necessarily about that dissertation, it's about them and what every person is bringing in their dissertation as a episode into the world of knowledge. And it's so beautiful to see that at the end of the day is a creative, a creative process, isn't it? Every thesis, every person is different. And it's nice to see that contribution. But again, they needed to have it done. So how to do it without compromising, that would be the key here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:33]: It's definitely the key because you, you have to figure that out as you go along so you don't lose that momentum. And you don't lose, because if you lose the momentum, the issue becomes, you get to a point, where are you ever going to finish? Because as you said, you can spend a day, a week, a month working one section of a dissertation. And we don't say that to scare you, it can get into that place. So having strategies and having things that can help you to be able to, to work smarter and not harder is so important. And you definitely want to think about that for yourself as you're going through this. So, Lucia, if a grad student is listening today and is on the verge of giving up, what's that very first step that you would encourage them to do to regain that momentum?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:28:20]: I think most of the time the most important thing is just stop for a second. You know, sometimes we need to slow down to speed up later in that reflection, maybe can be thinking about if it's the motivation, because sometimes there are different things that can be going on, but sometimes the motivation is coming from another place. So for example, sometimes you don't feel motivated because, for example, your supervisor said something and you feel that that puts you down. So if it's something related with mindset, you can always, always kind of reframe or challenge your own thoughts. Is this actually true? Focusing more on the things that you have done? I always remember Chris and I share this with the people I'm working with. One of the most frustrating things for me when I was doing my PhD was going to be feeling super tired and start going in the mentally the list of all the things that they were missing, the things that I didn't achieve and I used to go to bed like drain and. And I learn now instead of doing that going to be thinking all the things that I have done. So it's something that I definitely encourage students to do instead of focusing on the things that they don't have done.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:29:35]: Usually they always do more than they actually think or recognize. Sometimes it can be also sending a difficult email to the supervisor. There are things that they need that kind of acknowledgement, you know, and being brave to do it. Sometimes it's like hard work because for example for me I could have spent days in the library working on archives without funding anything. So there was a joy in doing it that I used. I loved exploring the thing so you can reflect on that as well. What I enjoy from this process, what is this is teaching me so that all goes around that mindset as well. Sometimes it's that simple thing like why I'm doing this, what would be my contribution, what was this means to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:24]: I love that because I think you definitely do have to have that wake up call every once in a while to be able to remember why you are doing what you're doing. And I really appreciate sharing this Pomodoro technique as well as your smart PhD system. I think that it can definitely help so many people and we'll definitely put a link in the notes today so people can learn more about this. I guess finally as I think about a PhD and finishing a PhD. Finishing a PhD isn't just about completing a dissertation. It's about building habits for life after grad school as you think back to the not only your own experience, but the things that led you to to creating the SmartPhD system for other students. How do those lessons from the SmartPhD carry forward into careers beyond academia?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:31:19]: Oh, that's a great question Chris. Because I did like a change in my career. Sometimes students like let's say PhD student who finished not working with me, but they finished and they're trying to find a job and they cannot find. Sometimes they call me to see if I can help them as a coach coach or just to share my experience or changing because I work for a university and I have my own business. So I like sometimes things in between. It shouldn't be necessarily one thing or the other as well, so I noticed that it's harder for me to help students in preparation for a job interview and other things that the students that they didn't go with me through the SmartPhD mainly because there were things that they were working with a smartPhD like for example building confidence, developing their self awareness. So it's so important that when you're working in your PhD and you pay attention of the things that as I was sharing before, for example what is working, what is not working, how I work best, at what time, how is my energy that it can be different from someone else. So knowing yourself can definitely make a big difference in first of all understanding what other opportunities can be be for you.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:32:29]: So being more open and be more flexible your skills are working with time management and planning can make you a great asset for any place, any job whether that's in academia or in the industry. Anyone wants to work with someone who has more positive attitudes towards work in general. Again whether that's in academia and anyone wants to work someone who is neglecting their self care because it has to be also that as the idea of the system that doesn't bring positive energy to the work that you do. And a positive energy if you ever pay attention when you are productive most of the time was the time that you were rested that you are happy with the work that you're doing that you feel motivated to do it because you feel that you can do it. So that's the mindset your attainable goals. Understanding with this act of actually attainable or not and having that that sense can also help you to present yourself better in like showing up as a professional in a different way that you will be like self doubting yourself all the time and not really knowing how do you work best. And if you pay attention to you, you will also pay more attention to others whether that's in a job interview or at work for the rest of the team. Collaboration is key in any area academia, industry and it's becoming more and more important.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:34:00]: The same with things like leadership that are so connected with self awareness that is related with that are of the reflection and mindset from the SmartPhD. So again I would say seeing you yourself as a whole and taking and try to make the best version you can today that will make you a great asset for any job that you can apply for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:24]: I really appreciate you sharing that. If people want to find out more about the SmartPhD about working with you, where should they go?

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:34:30]: I think the easiest will be my website which is www Lucia Juarez and maybe I need to spell that. L U c I a j-u a r e sa.com Am I always happy to listen to stories if anyone wants to contact me on LinkedIn, for example chat experience or ask questions. I know this hard and I don't want anyone to feel alone. For many people it's a very very lonely journey. Maybe just seeing that you are not the only one and if someone on the other side just for anyone listening, just feel free to send me a message.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:10]: And as I mentioned earlier, I will put links in the notes today so you can find Lucia easily. So feel free to check that out and go learn more about this amazing system that can help you to be able to better manage your time and better be able to prepare yourself for that PhD that you may be considering for yourself. Lucia, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you so much for sharing and for being here and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Lucia Juarez [00:35:35]: Thanks a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan, Florida as programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the journey of graduate school is both exciting and challenging, a truth eloquently explored in the recent episode of Victors in Grad School featuring Dr. Melissa Sreckovic, Associate Professor of Education and Director of the Honors Program at the University of Michigan-Flint. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the conversation delves into the realities of graduate education, highlighting transformative experiences and sharing practical wisdom for current and prospective students.

A central theme of the discussion is the importance of mindset. Dr. Sreckovic reflects on her transitions—from classroom teacher to graduate student, then onto a doctoral program—emphasizing the need to adjust expectations and embrace continuous learning. She recounts how her drive to better support students with disabilities, particularly those with autism, sparked her ambition for advanced study. This personal motivation underlines the significant impact that meaningful experiences can have in shaping academic and career journeys.

The episode also addresses the challenge of imposter syndrome, a feeling all too familiar for many graduate students, especially those who are first-generation college attendees. Dr. Sreckovic shares candidly about moments of self-doubt and the steps she took to reaffirm her sense of belonging. Importantly, she advocates for building a “community of safe people”—mentors and peers who offer guidance, encouragement, and camaraderie. This theme of community recurs throughout the conversation, with both Dr. Sreckovic and Dr. Lewis stressing the value of collaboration and finding supportive networks within graduate programs.

Work-life balance and time management are further touchpoints, with Dr. Sreckovic offering practical strategies: block out dedicated study time, stay organized with to-do lists, and use even small windows of opportunity productively. She also highlights the necessity of self-care and seeking campus support services, such as counseling, to prevent burnout and maintain well-being.

The conversation rounds out with reflections on the broader skills gained in graduate school, including the power of networking and the importance of listening to diverse perspectives. Dr. Sreckovic encourages prospective students to research programs, get involved, seek funding opportunities, and, above all, to believe in their own place within the academic community.

If you’re contemplating graduate school or are in the midst of your own journey, this episode offers reassurance, actionable advice, and inspiration. Listen in to gather tools for your own toolbox—and remember, you’re never alone on this path to success.

Tune into Victors in Grad School to hear the full conversation and gain more insights on thriving in graduate education!

TRANSCRIPTS

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again. And as always, you and I are on a journey. We are on a journey. As you are preparing and thinking about graduate school, maybe you are just starting that process for yourself where you're trying to determine what you're going to do, what you want to do next to get to reach those goals that you have for yourself. Maybe you've already applied and you figured out the programs that you're applying to and you're waiting for that decision in the mail or in your email.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:48]: Or maybe you're already in graduate school and you're working your way through the process. You see that light at the end of the tunnel and. And you are trying to figure out what it means to be a graduate student and how you can be best successful no matter where you are. This podcast was developed to help you to be able to find success sooner. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences, different perspectives that can talk to you about their own experiences in going through graduate school so you can gain some tools for your toolbox to help you along your own journey. Today we've got another great guest. Dr. Melissa Sarkovic is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: And Melissa is an associate professor of education and the director of the Honors Program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here to talk about her own experience and to share that with you. Melissa, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:01:44]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: Well, I love being able to talk to people about their own experiences. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University. You got that back. Bachelor of Arts in elementary education. And after graduation, you went out, you worked for a bit, you became a teacher. And at some point, at some point in those early years of teaching, you got a spark. There was something that made you start to think, maybe I want to go and get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: And why did you decide that graduate school was the. Why it was the right time for you to go to graduate school and why you ultimately decided to go to graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:02:30]: Well, after I graduated from Michigan State, I moved to Cary, North Carolina, where I began my teaching career as a third grade teacher. And right before school started the principal came to the third grade team and said, what teacher wants to be the inclusion teacher this year who wants to have the students with disabilities in their class? And I eagerly said, I do. And. And of course, that's not how things work anymore. This was a while ago. And so I had just the best experience my first year teaching students with and without disabilities in the classroom. I was able to collaborate with a special education teacher, and I realized that I still had a lot to learn about special education. And if I was going to be a really solid teacher and meet the multifaceted needs of these students in my class, that I needed more information.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:03:24]: I needed a different skill, skill set. And so that's what prompted me to get my master's and a focus in special education. And I went back to Michigan State for a couple reasons. It was comfortable. I already knew some of the professors there, and also because of the format, I was living in North Carolina. I wanted to stay in North Carolina, and I wanted to continue teaching. I didn't want to take a break from teaching. So I was looking for an online program that I could do mostly on the weekends so that I could really focus on my students in my classroom.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:03:55]: And Michigan State afforded me that opportunity. So that was why. That's why I decided to go back for my master's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:02]: Now, I know that you got that master's degree. You finished up, went back, worked with your students, engaged yourself within your. Your classroom and in your school. But then again, two years later, you had that inkling again, and you decided that you wanted to go further, and you ultimately decided to get a doctorate degree in special education in Autism Spectrum Disorder. And you. You decided to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. So talk to me about what made you decide that you wanted to take that next step and get the PhD versus just staying at the master's level.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:04:39]: So I taught a student with autism, and he just really changed the trajectory of me for my professional life. And I just understood him. We got each other. I was his safe person. When he moved on to fourth grade, into fifth grade, he would come back to my classroom if he was 15, feeling overwhelmed. And I realized that he was really misunderstood by other teachers in the school, by other students in the school, by parents. And he is such a great kid. He's brilliant.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:05:12]: He's so kind, so empathetic. And I thought, you know what? I can. I want to go back to school so that I can better prepare teachers to work with students like him so that they really understand the strengths and value that kiddos like him bring to the classroom. And really to help teachers foster a classroom community where everyone in their class belongs and understands their value. So that was really why I decided to go back to graduate school to get my PhD, because I really wanted to learn more about autism and how I could better support teachers in supporting their students on the spectrum. So, so when I was looking at doctoral programs, I was looking for a place that had researchers doing work on autism. So UNC Chapel Hill had some of the biggest autism researchers around the world. Dr.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:06:04]: Sam Odom, Dr. Gary Meziboff, Dr. Kara Hume, were doing some really phenomenal research at UNC Chapel Hill. So I decided to go for an informational session and learn a little bit more. I learned about an interdisciplinary grant that I could apply for that would fund all four years of my PhD program. And I would do research as part of that grant and I would also teach as part of that grant. And that was under Dr. Harriet Abel.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:06:32]: And I applied and was awarded the grant and thought, okay, well, all the stars are aligning. It looks like I'm getting my PhD. But really it was having that student in my class which really sparked my interest in thinking, you know, what, I can do more, I can make a bigger impact. And the avenue in which I do that is getting my PhD.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: I know that whenever you start a new degree, there are transitions. And as you go into that degree itself, you're having to learn a lot about not only yourself, but about what the expectations are for your faculty, how you're going to have to learn in a different way, and you have to figure that out as you go along. As you think about your master's degree, your doctorate degree, and you think back to those experiences, what mindset shifts, what mindset shifts did you have to make to succeed in graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:07:24]: One of the bigger challenges for me going from the third grade classroom into a full time PhD program was the lack of reinforcement. So when you're teaching third grade, you have 258 year olds that are coming to you every morning and excited to see you and you are like reinforced all day long by their smiles and their laughing and their high fives and you know that you're doing something right. When you get to a PhD program, you don't have that instant reinforcement anymore. And in fact, you have a lot of feedback that's not always positive. It's not negative either. It's meant to help you grow. But it was a mindset shift. When you're getting papers back and there's A lot of work that you need to do on it.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:08:09]: So that was one of the biggest shifts for me in my master's program. I felt like there was still a lot more positive reinforcement. In the PhD program, there certainly was positive reinforcement, but it just wasn't nearly as common or as consistent as when you're teaching third grade. That was a very big shift for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:27]: A lot of students that I talk to talk about the fact that as they're going through their graduate degrees, at times they feel like an imposter. They feel like they shouldn't be there. They feel like they are not worthy of the, of the opportunity to be in those programs. Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies? And how did you handle it?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:08:50]: Absolutely. And I would say that sometimes still in my professional journey, I face imposter syndrome. I mentioned that I'm a first gen grad student. So even navigating the college application as an undergrad student, but especially as a graduate student was challenging because as when I was applying for undergrad, at least I had my high school counselors to help. But then when you're applying to grad school and you're a first gen college student, you don't have anyone in your family that you can go to and say, hey, does this look right? Can you read over my essay for me? So that's challenging. But I remind myself that everyone wasn't accepted into this program. It wasn't an open door policy where everybody gets in. So I earned my spot there and I belong just as much as the next person.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:09:38]: And I think it's really important when you start your graduate journey that you find your community of people. That was just instrumental. And my success in my PhD program was finding my safe people that I could ask silly questions to. And we supported each other, we encouraged each other, we were there to help each other. And you know, that helps with imposter syndrome too. When you find your people and you know like, this is your place, this is where you belong. I think you just have to remind yourself that you got in just like everyone else.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:10]: That's always an important thing to do. Whether it's on a daily basis, whether it's on a monthly basis, a semester basis, you are reinforcing that you are meant to be there. The program believed in you and now they're giving you an opportunity to not only believe in yourself, but really to step up to the plate, step up to the challenge. Because it will be challenging, but it is an opportunity that they are giving you because they feel that you are worthy of that opportunity. So always keep that in mind as you're going through not only the good times, but the challenging times, because there will be both as you go through graduate school in general. Now, Melissa, I know that there's a lot of things that are thrown at you as you go through graduate school. And many times people that are going through graduate school are wearing many hats. They're having to be a employee, they're having to be a friend, a family member, maybe a spouse or a parent.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:06]: And that takes a lot of balance. Talk to me about balance for yourself. How did you balance school, work, family, or other responsibilities while you were going through graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:11:16]: When I was in grad school, both for my Master's and my PhD, I did not have kids yet, so I was married and I have a very supportive husband. And so that is definitely key. And my husband shared in my goals. You know, he knew that I wanted to finish my doctoral program and he was very supportive of that, which was really huge. But I think you just have to make the time. I would block out time through the week where I would study, and so it was just set there on the calendar. This is really silly, but I am very efficient and I always have my backpack with me. So if I was heading home from Chapel Hill to my apartment and there was traffic, I would pull over into a parking lot and I would work until the traffic died down because I didn't want to waste an hour in traffic when I could have been reading an article.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:12:07]: So. So I just used my time as efficiently as I could and then I built in time. It may not be five hours that I could spend with my husband on a Saturday, but maybe it's two hours. And those two hours, I try to make it count as quality time where I put my work aside. And then I also tried to build in some fun. So I had a really great community when I was in graduate school and I brought my husband into that community and we would go out in Chapel Hill and go to dinner and things like that together. And so having a community, that kind of helps me push you through the program and contributes to both the work life balance. Because you're studying together, but you're also going out and exploring your new town together.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:12:48]: That was really helpful as well. And then the last thing I will say is you just have to be very organized. I'm very organized person and I love a to do list. So lots of to do lists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:59]: Well, the to do lists are definitely one thing and as you said, you're very organized. Not every person is. And time management is definitely important. As you go through graduate school, talk to me about some of the time management management strategies or tools that were most helpful to you.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:13:14]: Well, I would set out specific times of the day where I could study, where I wasn't teaching, where I wasn't doing research, and when I didn't have class and they were blocked out in my calendar. Now this was a while ago, so I didn't have Google Calendar. I had like a physical calendar that I would block it out in. But that helped me with time management. And I would look at my syllabus and I would write everything down, all the big due dates down in my calendar, so I knew when they were coming up. I'm not a procrastinator, so I would slowly work on those bigger projects. I believe it or not, my undergrad students don't typically do this, but I went to office hours of my professors and I would ask questions and make sure that I understood the assignment so that what I was working on, I was. It wasn't wasted time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:01]: You definitely want to take advantage of all the time that you have now. Realize also, though, that it's not always going to be easy and there's going to be time where even when you're putting in the time and the effort that you burned yourself out. And that can feel frustrating. It can feel overwhelming. And I say that just because everyone should know that it is something that may impact you while you go through graduate school. Melissa, talk to me about burnout for yourself and what did you do to avoid burnout or to recover from it when you were feeling overwhelmed?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:14:34]: First, I would say that I definitely reinforced myself. So if I was working on a big project or if I was trying to get a paper submitted for publication, when I submitted it, I would have some sort of reinforcement after and whether that meant that I could go walk around the mall or I bought myself a new top, or I would take myself and my husband out to dinner. So building in those reinforcements are really important and they don't have to be anything big. It could be like, I'm going to go take a walk around the block with my dog now that I did this. And having those builds in sometimes throughout the week and then bigger reinforcements when I submit a big project was really helpful. You have to take time for yourself. I like to run, so I run almost every day, and I did during my graduate program too. So working out is definitely a way for me to like, release stress.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:15:25]: And just have that 30 minutes to myself, I think was really important to help preventing burnout. And then I would say I did access. One of the greatest resources that I used when I was a doctoral student at UNC was their counseling and psychological services. So I did go to therapy when I was a doctoral student using my UNC resources. So it was free for me and it was really a game changer for me. It really helped me refocus and helped me complete the program successfully. So I'm very thankful for that resource as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:00]: We definitely have to destigmatize the use of services on campus. And I've talked about that in the past, the fact that if you feel that you need help, if you feel that there are services that could help you to be successful, ask about them, search them out, and don't be afraid to put yourself out there. We have so many students that are veterans that don't take advantage of a veterans services center. We have disability centers that are not going to just go tell everyone that you have a disability. They're going to keep it confidential. They're going to talk to you. They're going to figure out what could help you to be most successful and work with you along the way. You've got caps that Melissa was just talking about about counseling services that are there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:41]: We have in our caps here at the University of Michigan, Flynn, there is a just for doctoral students. We have a specific program called the Doc Den, which is for doctoral students to come together to talk with one another, to have that group that Melissa was talking about. So there's lots of ways to find that support for yourself. And that is so, so important. As you think about the graduate programs, Melissa, that you went through and the experiences that you had, and you think about not only the in class learning and that you learned that were tangible to the field that you were studying, but a lot of times people learn things outside of the class that sometimes can be just as important. What was the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:17:25]: Networking and how to collaborate. So networking has been very important and is definitely not something I learned in the classroom. My mentor, Dr. Kathleen Lane, at my first conference, introduced me to networking and started introducing me to the professors across the special education field. And I started a lot of my research partnerships through her support and networking. So networking is really important, something I did not learn in the classroom. And then the other thing is collaboration. So that same mentor, Dr.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:18:00]: Elaine, my first year in my doctoral program, she gave a lunch and learn talk And I just really resonated with it. And I went up after the talk and was kind of out of my comfort zone, but I introduced myself to her, said how much I appreciate she did her talk and she said, I'm going to start up a group if you want to join. And I said, okay. So I showed up and we met weekly and we went around a table and every week we would share what we're working on that week, what we need help on, and any sort of successes that we had. She really cultivated a community within that group that we could lean on that was just so helping me thrive. And we were all so I felt like so successful because of that collaboration piece. I could lean on my peers if I needed help with something academic, like a presentation in class, but it could be something outside the classroom, like I'm submitting my first conference proposal and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to write for this line. So smaller things and larger projects.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:18:58]: We all supported each other and many of us are still in touch today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: Thinking about that and thinking about how graduate school changed you. How do you feel that graduate school changed the way that you think, work, or approach problems?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:19:12]: I very much think about now whose voice is not being heard and who is not sitting at the table. I think grad school really opened me up to various perspectives and the importance of listening to varied perspectives when you're trying to solve a problem. And now when I'm in a group, I'm in a committee, it is sort of in the back of my mind of, okay, who's sitting at this table and who's not represented? Like, who do we need to hear from to make sure that all the all voices, all the stakeholder voices are really being heard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:45]: As you think back to your master's, your doctorate degree, and you think back to who you were as that first generation graduate student going in, not knowing a lot. What's something that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school at either level?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:20:01]: Probably that you're not alone. You know, I was anxious, especially when I started my doctoral program, I was really anxious. It was definitely out of my comfort zone. So I wish somebody would have told me that you're not alone. Other people are anxious too, and that you will find your people. And the great thing about grad school, and I felt the same about undergrad as well, but it really clicked in grad school is that it's not if I belong. You belong. You were accepted.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:20:29]: This is a space for you. This is where you Belong. It's just showing up and being part of that process. Right. And being part of that group. And that's something that doesn't always come easy for everybody. You do have to show up. Everyone's hanging out in the grad school lounge.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:20:45]: Push yourself to go to the grad school lounge to start building those relationships, because those relationships are going to help you get through the program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:53]: Also, as you think back, I've asked you a lot of questions about being successful, and that's what this podcast is all about. So, in general, how do you define success for yourself now? But how did you define success for yourself while you were in the program? And has that definition changed now that you think back on it as well?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:21:13]: When I was in my master's and doctoral program, academic achievement was definitely part of my definition of success. So getting good grades in my classes and that was also reinforcement. You know, when you get a good grade, it reinforces you. So that was definitely part of my definition of success. Now my definition of the success is really focused on the impact of my work. And if my work is improving quality of lives of individuals on the autism spectrum, less about how many publications I've gotten or how many conference proposals or how many presentations I've implemented, and more about, am I actually making change? Are people benefiting from the work that I'm doing?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:56]: As you think about someone that is out there, that's thinking about maybe going to graduate school, whether it's in education or some other field, what are some tips that you might offer to them that would help them to find success sooner?

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:22:09]: First, do your research on the program that you're applying to. So look to to see what professors are there and what type of research they're doing. Especially if you want to get involved in research, it's great to have a professor that's doing research in the area you're interested in, because that can open the door for research possibilities. And I would say get involved. For me, I wasn't involved in a lot of clubs or anything in either of my graduate programs, but I was involved with my peers. I made time to connect with them. And I was very involved in research. And I was very involved as a teaching assistant.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:22:43]: That was part of the grant that I was on. But if you aren't a part of a grant where you have to have research and teaching as part of your workload, volunteer. Volunteer to do research. Volunteer to be a teaching assistant if there aren't paid opportunities, because that's going to open a lot of doors for you. You're going to make a lot of connections that way. And then also for the funding piece is investigate what type of funding might be available. That was something I didn't know a lot about as a first gen college student, that there are lot of funding mechanisms for doctoral students. There might be paid research assistantships, paid teaching assistantships.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:23:20]: So definitely do your due diligence and reach out to the program and see what opportunities are available and that that could impact your decision on where you ultimately decide to go to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:30]: Well, Melissa, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your own journey today, for sharing some of the highs, the lows and the things in between that helped you to become who you are today. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Melissa Sreckovic [00:23:43]: Thank you Dr. Lewis. I appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:45]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradofficemflint. Eduardo.

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If you’re planning your path to graduate school—whether you’re a first-generation student, a working professional, or a lifelong learner—there’s a crucial factor you shouldn’t overlook: accreditation. In a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Daniel Sessions, Accreditation Officer at the National Association of Academic Excellence, to demystify accreditation and explain why it matters so much to your graduate journey.

Understanding Accreditation—Your Assurance of Quality

Dr. Lewis opens the conversation by highlighting how many students overlook accreditation while searching for the right program. Daniel Sessions breaks it down simply: think of accreditation as a seal of approval on your education. It stands for legitimate quality assurance and long-term value. When an institution or a program is accredited, it’s been vetted by rigorous standards—giving you peace of mind that your time and investment will pay off after graduation.

The Difference Between Institutional and Programmatic Accreditation

One of the most important clarifications in the episode is the distinction between institutional and programmatic accreditation. Institutional accreditation is a broad assessment of a whole university or college. Programmatic accreditation, however, dives deeper into evaluating a specific program or area of study—often required for careers that rely on licensure or specific professional credentials, such as healthcare, accounting, or law.

Why You Need to Care About Accreditation

Dr. Lewis and Sessions stress that choosing an unaccredited or questionably accredited program can have real consequences, such as ineligibility for professional licensing, difficulty transferring credits, or even trouble qualifying for financial aid or future educational opportunities. Accreditation isn’t just about prestige—it can impact your ability to practice in your field after graduating.

Essential Questions for Prospective Grad Students

Sessions encourages prospective students to ask admissions officers what role accreditation plays in their programs, verify accreditation status with official accrediting bodies, and consider how the school’s reputation is reflected in the industry. Trust but verify—don’t be afraid to dig deeper!

Ready to Learn More? Listen to the Full Podcast

Whether you’re just starting to weigh your grad school options or you’re narrowing your choices, this episode offers practical advice and insider insight that will empower you to make informed decisions. Listen to the full episode of "Victors in Grad School" to hear Daniel Sessions’ personal journey, tangible tips, and deep dive into academic excellence.

Your pathway to graduate success starts with asking the right questions. Don’t miss this essential conversation—give the episode a listen today!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together as you are going through and figuring out those steps that you are taking to prepare yourself to go in, go through, and even go out of attending graduate school. And that's why this show exists. It's here to be able to give you some hints, some tips, some tools, some things that you can learn from that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. I love being able to sit down and talk with you every week because there are things that you can do right now, things that you can do to prepare yourself, to make sure you're asking the right questions and making sure that you're prepared for identifying the right schools for you if you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: If you're at the very beginning or that you're making sure that you know what to do as you're going through that school and as you're looking at the light at the end of the tunnel. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you do just that. And today we got another great guest. Daniel Sessions is with us. And Daniel is an accreditation officer for the national association of Academic Excellence Incorporated. And we're going to talk about that because I've talked about accreditation in the past. If you've ever gone to any of the webinars that I've done or you've heard me talk about. Things to look for when you're looking at schools, when you're considering different schools.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And accreditation is one of those things that not everybody asks about. It's kind of in the background. Sometimes you see it on a website, but it is something that is important, and it's something that you should know about. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. But first and foremost, I'm really excited to have Daniel here. We're gonna have him talk a little bit about his own experiences as well. So, Daniel, thanks so much for being here.

Daniel Sessions [00:01:59]: Thanks, Dr. Lewis, for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here today, to have you talk about not only accreditation, but some of your own graduate school journey. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Southern Illinois University and then you graduated Went out into that workforce, graduated, got some experience, and at some point you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to continue and go on and get further education. Can you bring me back to that point and what made you make the decision that you wanted to take that next step?

Daniel Sessions [00:02:31]: So I have to give a shout out to an identity piece that I have, and that is not only a first generation undergraduate student, but a first generation graduate student. And so at that point, where I decided to go back to graduate school was I had seen the benefits that formal undergraduate education had given me as I entered, entered into the workforce. And I knew I had a taste of the nice sweet fruit. And I realized that it could only be better if I furthered my education and deepened my understanding in a very specific specialization area. And so I went on about a 12 month experience process where I tried to decide, well, what was it? There are many different areas that you could go study that you could elect to do. In addition and above and beyond that, where could I go? And so ultimately I decided to enroll and go to graduate school to better my life and to give myself not only some upward mobility in a credential perspective, but, but also just to gain further light and knowledge in my life so that I could be the best professional that I could be through advanced education. Because I felt like I was made for that and I wanted to experience that myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: Now you just talked about that. You went through that process of looking at programs, looking at schools, figuring out what you wanted to do and where you wanted to go, and I guess bring me to that point, talk to me about what you did as you were looking and, and exploring those different schools. And I know you ultimately decided to attend Northwestern University to get a Master of Science in Strategic Communication and Law. What made you decide that Northwestern was the right school? And what made you decide that Strategic Communication and Law was the right program?

Daniel Sessions [00:04:01]: So I was at a pivotal point in my adult career where I had spent the first just over a decade in clinical healthcare and had exited clinical healthcare to start teaching human anatomy and physiology at a local technical college. And I really had a departure point that I was grappling with. It was either double down and go back and go to graduate school in the form of clinical medicine, or specialize in a different area. And I loved working in education and I knew that higher education administration was something that I could see myself having a very long and rewarding career on. Now, around that same time frame, we were seeing a lot of change in the higher education space. And A lot of change in the regulatory space as it relates to oversight of education, the 2008 through 2010 and 11 timeframe. And I decided ultimately not to pursue and continue to pursue clinical healthcare, but to specialize in an area that would help me in higher education administration and strategic communications. I've always liked to talk, I've always liked to present.

Daniel Sessions [00:04:57]: And it was just something that I felt as though was part of who I am and what I do. And so to be able to rally the allegiance of my associates through words and present material and clear and concise manners was something that I was looking for. And so as I evaluated Northwestern and suburban Chicago, not only the reputation of the institution, but also the program, as I evaluated it, just seemed like it fit my needs very well. And I was very excited to jump in with both feet.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: Now, every student, when they go from undergraduate into graduate work, there is a transition that you go through, a transition in the way in which faculty are expecting things of you, transitions in the way that you have to read, in the way that you have to write, in the way that you have to do a lot of different things. You were successful, you came into the program, you got through the program. As you made that transition from undergrad to workforce and then workforce back into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey?

Daniel Sessions [00:05:58]: I had to be very self disciplined in setting some boundaries for myself. If I knew I was going to be focusing on other responsibilities, I wouldn't be sort of half in my studies, my research, my assignments, my writing. If I was in school mode, I needed to be in school mode and remove all other distractions out of my life. At this time in the season of my life, I was a young father. I was working to make ends meet and go to graduate school at the same time. So my plate was quite full. And so I had to dedicate and create some boundaries for my own self so that I could give everything I had to my scholastic endeavors. And so that's really what I attribute a lot of my success to.

Daniel Sessions [00:06:33]: But also just some of those intrinsic motivation factors. Really wanting to do this not only for myself and for the process of learning and growth, but also for the process of my family and my young growing family. That really helped from a motivational perspective, to really buckle down, even when I was tired, to stick with it and take everything that I could out of the activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: I mentioned earlier that you are working for the national association of academic excellence. And in that association, they are an association that is working on accreditation and accreditation for institutions, for programs. And it's not something that everyone talks about. It is not something that that especially academics talk about it, Universities talk about it. It's really important for universities for programs. But when it comes to students looking at graduate schools, when it comes to parents and students in high school looking at schools, it's not a question that is usually on the tip of their tongues. So I guess first and foremost, before we delve too deep into this, one of the things that I was really interested in having you talk about is for someone just starting to explore graduate school, how would you explain accreditation in the simplest terms?

Daniel Sessions [00:07:41]: The simplest terms I would use would be legit quality assurance and long term value. Those are the three main things that I would attribute to accreditation and what accreditation affords an institution as you're evaluating whether or not to attend graduate school there. Now, I can't talk about accreditation without rewinding the clocks back a hundred years. And when you go back 100 years ago, what did accreditation start as? And what was the main focus of accreditation when it was really entering the scene of higher education 100 years ago? And that was really quality assurance and academic excellence, Focusing on the academic rigor of the programs, the courses, the assignments, the faculty, the scholarship, you know, really putting a seal of approval on this is what you get when you are an accredited institution through this enterprise. Over the last hundred years or so, and especially in the last few decades, we've seen accreditation take on multiple different arms. And it's by virtue of just the competencies that accreditors have to offer institutions. And so we've seen over the course of that time period, accreditation start to be focused in some other areas as well, and some would argue focused in those areas more so than what they originally embarked on the journey of accreditation to do. And so I think accreditation is really, really important.

Daniel Sessions [00:08:56]: And specifically asking questions around how does that accreditation assure academic excellence within the institution? What role does quality assurance play in continuous improvement of the courses and the programs at that institution? And so accreditation, think about it as a seal of approval or an extra meas of academic excellence, as a distinction or as a distinguishing factor for that institution to talk about when you're thinking about matriculating into a graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that as someone hears the word accreditation, they're going to hear institutional accreditation and they're going to hear programmatic accreditation. What is the difference between institutional accreditation and programmatic accreditation. And why does that distinction matter to students?

Daniel Sessions [00:09:43]: That distinction matters greatly. And there are two very different specific lenses that those accreditors look at. Institutional accreditation. Think about it as a 30,000 foot view with microscopes down into specific areas. It is over the entire institution at large, their entire process of continuous improvement, their entire process of faculty qualifications and institutional effectiveness. It looks at the college and the university as a whole. Whereas programmatic accreditation is specifically focused on a discipline of study or a school of study within that institution. So let's say it's a business programs accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:10:18]: They look at the business programs in a similar way that an institutional accreditor will look at the entire institution. A programmatic accreditor will look at the entire operations within that given program. And it's considered or sometimes referred to as a specialized accreditor for that specific reason, because they have specific and distinct oversight of those areas that require specialized things in those specific programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:43]: Now, when someone first goes onto a website, programs that are accredited are going to make it very clear that they're accredited. Sometimes it can be in small print and still be on a page, and sometimes it's not, as always, easy to find. But usually a program will be very proud of the fact that they've been accredited by a agency. As you think about graduate students that are considering different programs, why should prospective graduate students pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:11:10]: Well, you should pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program for a couple of reasons. One, programmatic accreditation is largely voluntary. It's voluntary in the fact that there are many programs out there that may not be programmatically accredited. And you have to understand why that matters. Now, as you're approaching, say, a specific discipline of study that has and or leads to some form of professional licensure within your state or within your country, it's really, really important to attend a programmatically accredited program. There are higher standards on the outcomes of those graduates that lead to licenses within their given discipline or their given employment field, say accountancy, for example, or some healthcare examples, or social work, mental health type providers, or even teachers. Right? By looking at programmatically accredited programs, you're basically understanding that they are meeting very specific outcomes that these accreditors will require of these programs that are competencies demonstrated and or retained by graduates of that program. And so if you're thinking about and evaluating programmatic accreditation of a given program, it's really, really also too important to know, does this program lead to some form of specific type of licensure or specific type of approval to be employed in that field.

Daniel Sessions [00:12:29]: And if so, that should even bump up your priority level of a programmatically accredited program even more so in thinking.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: About that, it seems like you're saying that especially for those credential programs, there are definitely some risks or consequences of not enrolling in a program. So what are some of those risks or consequences that students should be aware of if they don't enroll in a program that has that proper accreditation?

Daniel Sessions [00:12:54]: The best example that I can give you is one within the clinical healthcare space. You know, and somebody that was educated internationally, they could find themselves not being able to be appointed to the boards here within the United States to practice in that clinical healthcare profession. They could find employers that are unwilling to employ graduates of unaccredited programs. And so while you may be able to navigate the academic journey and attain many of your scholastic endeavors that you want to obtain for your own personal sort of intrinsic value, the outcome of an unaccredited program may ultimately be difficulty in the life after graduate school. What does that look like after and how do I demonstrate that while I did have and achieve great learning, some employers may not even entertain discussing potential employment with you if you did not attend a programmatic the accredited program?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:44]: Well, another example, I worked at a law school for almost 10 years, and there are law schools that are accredited only in certain states. And if you attend a law school that is accredited only by, let's say, California, you can only practice in California and sit for the bar exam in California. You cannot sit for any other bar exam in any other state. You can only sit for the bar exam in that state. So you have to be really willing to stay in one state to use that license if you're going to sit for the bar exam. It doesn't take away the fact that you got a JD but it does take away the ability to be able to sit for the bar exam and take that credential with you and sit for other bar exams in other states. So that's just another example that could be a risk if you are not asking those right questions on the way. Are there other, other impacts that you can think of, Daniel, that this accreditation can impact, like financial aid or transfer of credits or other aspects that students should be thinking about?

Daniel Sessions [00:14:44]: Yes, absolutely. And so if continuing education, if you're, if you consider yourself like I do, a lifelong learner and you decide that you would like to even level up, let's say you're considering a master degree right now, but you're not closing the door on potential Doctoral studies someday, sometimes depending on where your ultimate terminal degree efforts will go toward, they may not accept a subordinate master's degree if it doesn't come from a institutionally accredited institution or even potentially a programmatically accredited program. And where I think there's sort of been an escalating factor in this area is I am a study of technology. I love the way we're leveraging technology and our learning nowadays and the ability and the freedoms that we've discovered in still maintaining academic rigor and academic excellence while leveraging technology in our studies. We also have to be very, very careful about selecting, for example, online education and what are the impacts like you've identified with a law degree that you may need to consider? What are the specific approvals that that online program offers? Yes. Does it have any residency based requirements? Does it have any long term employment related concerns like limited ability to procure the appropriate license or approval for your long term career journeys? So those are just a few things. As far as transferability of credit, when you start talking graduate school transfer of credit is less important than say undergraduate transferability just because of the number of institutions that sometimes students will attend before degree attainment. But it's still an appropriate conversation to have, especially as you're leveling up to the next level or going from a master's degree to a doctoral degree.

Daniel Sessions [00:16:20]: Some doctoral programs will recognize those subordinate masters and some will not. Just frankly will not. And so that's something you should definitely consider because don't shut the door on your own goals because you could find that you love higher level learning and want to continue up the doctoral level as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: So I talked earlier about this conversation really leads to the fact that you have to know the questions to ask and you need to make sure that you're asking the right questions as you're going through this process of identifying the right program for you. So what are some of the most important questions that students should be asking schools or programs about accreditation before committing to a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:16:56]: So I think a very high level question that will be very telling and how these programs or these schools or these admissions officers or these program deans that you may be talking with as you're deciding whether to enroll or not? One of the higher level questions that you can ask is what role does accreditation play in your program or your institution? And hear their answer. If it's something that they have to take a minute to think about, well then maybe that's telling you something without actually telling you something by virtue of how they arrive at Their answer will tell you whether or not accreditation is something they think about every ten year cycle, or every five year report cycle, which are the typical reporting cycles in the accreditation world, or whether it's something that is really ingrained into the courses, the academic rigor, the continuous improvement that they engage in on an ongoing basis to make their program and their institution as best as it can be. You know a second question that you can ask, are really outcomes related and outcomes focused? You know, what do graduates of your programs typically do? And do you have examples of what types of graduate outcomes, what students have gone on to do after graduation? And so those are just a couple of things to say. Help me tangibly understand what role does accreditation play in the ongoing continuous improvement of your institution and your program, but also what does your program do in the lives of the graduates? Because I'm a firm believer that you can talk about how good your program is and talk about all the wonderful things that you do as part of that academic journey, but really how does it impact the lives of your students and your graduates? And that will be a very telling story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:25]: One of the things that I know that sometimes you'll see on different websites as you look at different programs is that you may see something that says that a accreditation is pending or a program is on probation. What does that really mean? And should students be cautious when they see words like this?

Daniel Sessions [00:18:47]: So pending accreditation status is less problematic so than say a probation or a show cause or a specific type of monitoring distinction. Anytime you see probation, show cause, monitoring related statuses within accreditation, that means something, something has gone wrong. It may not necessarily mean that there's a systemic issue, but what it may mean is that they failed to demonstrate something specific to the standards or criteria or measures that the accreditor expects of partner and member based institutions or programs. And so that's definitely a point of question. Ask about that, ask about what led to that status. Ask about what they're doing now to resolve that status or when they expect that that status will be changed to a regular accreditation status. Now, the pending status, that may just mean it's a new accreditation for them. A lot of accreditations like the NAE that I work for, we will enter institutions into a pending status for a period of time while you, those institutions assess specific student outcomes and help those, there's that data about student success tell the story of academic excellence.

Daniel Sessions [00:19:54]: And so a pending status may just mean that it's either a new process for them or they're, they're going in a, in A RE certification process with that accreditation review cycle. And so it may just be a seasonality type thing where. Where they're currently in that RE review process. So pending is less concerning to me as it would be any type of what I would consider to be a negative distinction, like a show cause like a probation, like a heightened monitoring type status, because that's usually an indicator that something has gone awry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Speaking of accreditation status, how can students verify that a program's accreditation status is both legitimate, but also make sure that what is being shared on the website by the program is accurate and not misleading?

Daniel Sessions [00:20:38]: I'm a big fan of the Ronald Reagan quote, trust but verify. I think it's important to ask the institution about their programmatic status, but I have yet to find an accreditor out there in the higher education space that also doesn't give students and consumers the ability to look up the status of an institution. So ask them, but then verify that. Go to the actual accreditor, look and find the area wherein you can verify. And oftentimes under the accreditation tab of many institutional websites, they'll have a direct link to their accreditor's website where you can verify from the accreditor themselves, not the institution, what their current status is. And oftentimes publicly available documents like decision letters, like if there is a negative accreditation status, usually there'll be some form of documentation on the accreditor website that sheds a little bit of light. Obviously not down into the details or not into specifically personally protected information, but information on, well, maybe this institution failed to demonstrate successful outcomes of their graduation rates or something like that. So trust but verify.

Daniel Sessions [00:21:39]: Ask the institution. I think you owe it to the institution and the program to ask them themselves. Tell us your story about your accreditation and then go verify that with the actual accreditor themselves and you'll be surprised. You can find a lot of information if you just click 1, 2, or maybe even at most 3 clicks down to find the information that you're looking for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:57]: One of the other questions that I have is that there are sometimes numerous types of accreditors that are out there, many types of accreditors for institutions, but there's also at times different accreditors for programs, and then there's programs that have no accrediting body. So how do you sift through the milieu in regards to all the different plethora of different accrediting bodies that are out there to know what you're actually seeing and able to really know what matters as you're looking at the Fact that, yeah, the institution is accredited by AACSB or some other agency, but what does that really mean and what should they be looking for in that regard?

Daniel Sessions [00:22:44]: Yeah, so accreditation is definitely something that we're hearing a lot about in higher education right now. And one of the things we call it the regulatory triad in higher education, there's the federal level, the U.S. department of Education, there's the accreditors, you know, the institutional and programmatic accreditation. But then there's also the state approving agencies where these institutions operate their schools. And so if you're unsure about a specific accreditor and whether or not they have the distinction that they say they do, well, you can go out and take a look at do they have federal approval through the U.S. department of Education? Are they a part of different creditor type associations like chia, which is a great distinction that you can find from an accreditation perspective. Now that's more so for an institutional accreditation from a programmatic accreditation. It's also about how is it regarded within the industry with which that they accredit programs? How does the business community look at that specific business accreditor? How does the health professions community look at this specific accreditor? And so there's always one, two or three ways in which you can sort of corroborate whether or not a specific accreditor has the distinction and the reputation that they themselves will say in the marketplace that they have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]: So as I think about accreditation a little bit further, in your perspective, how does accreditation adapt to new fields of study or emerging disciplines in graduate education, undergraduate education, like you said that maybe they don't have an accreditation body yet because they're a new field of study.

Daniel Sessions [00:24:13]: So I think that's part of what I like to call, and we talk a lot about at the NAAE is continuous quality improvement. How does the institution find ways to apply the pedagogies that they engage when teaching and learning at their institution, but also the scholastic endeavors, the research, and how do they create these new programs in these new discipline areas? You know, think about, you know, 10 years ago, we weren't talking a lot about artificial intelligence engines and algorithms that create these types. And now, you know, you're getting degree programs in these specific areas. So how does that come to be? That can come to be from industry review boards partnering with institution or with providers of specific business sector things. What do they need in graduates to fill their entry level or managerial type roles? It can be in calling upon a new and additional research that the, the faculty will engage in to discover more about that discipline of study or that program of study. And so it's what I would say is germane to the sort of the academic experience as we develop into new areas, new technologies, new fields of study. How did they arrive at that? How are they continuously looking for ways in which to make their program the best that it can be for the students who ultimately raise their hand voluntarily and say, I want to learn that, I want to do that and I want to, to take that back out into the, into the world and be a contributing member of society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: So talking about your organization, I mentioned the fact that there are different organizations. There are university accreditors, there's programmatic accreditors, and each one looks at things a little bit differently. Talk to me about your organization. What makes your organization different in how you look at programs or how you look at institutions and how it stands apart from other agencies?

Daniel Sessions [00:25:55]: Sure. So the national association of Academic Excellence has sort of that differentiator that I'll share with you in the name itself, and that is academic excellence. That story that I told you earlier about going 100 years ago, when accreditation first started, that was really the central focus was that academic excellence piece. And it's our opinion over the years that accreditation has, while continued to pay attention to academic excellence, placed importance on other federal compliance areas. As at the federal level, different demands were being placed on accreditors. So one of the things that the main differentiator of the NAAE is the data set with which we will assess and seek quality assurance in the way that outcomes are being generated from an institution. Oftentimes you have to submit a self study or an assurance argument that talks about and shows data as to why and how you do what you do and back it up by evidence. And oftentimes that evidence that's examined is backwards looking or what happened last academic year and tell us a story about how that assures that you meet the standards and the measures of the accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:26:57]: Whereas at the NAE, we actually ask you to make a plan and make a hypothesis and say this is how we intend to drive the outcomes that we're looking to drive within our programs and then go assess it for an academic year or two and at the end of that data set, that academic year or two, come back and tell us your story, what you thought you were going to do, did it actually happen and what were the main drivers to make that happen in the real lives of the students that were in those programs within your institution, and if it didn't, what went wrong? And what will you do different next academic year to improve those outcomes? And so rather than crafting a story and an argument about your compliance with the standards and the measures by looking backwards at stuff that's already happened, we ask you to take a snapshot in real time about where you're going and then go there and then tell us whether or not you were right or wrong and what you're going to do differently as you attempt to continuously improve over the next few academic years. And so that's. And when people ask what's the main differentiator of our emerging accreditation, that's what I believe is the big differentiator.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:57]: Finally, in regards to accreditation, what final piece of advice would you give to prospective graduate students about accreditation and making an informed choice?

Daniel Sessions [00:28:08]: I would just remind you that accreditation matters again. Where accreditation started was the pursuit of academic excellence, academic rigor and faculty thought leadership. As you continue on that educational journey and ensuring that the faculty are unbridled from undue political pressure or that they are giving back to the communities in the discipline which they're studying and that accreditation should help tell that story. And don't just rely upon the word of one or two trust, but verify. Ask the questions. Don't shy away from asking the questions, but then go verify for yourself. Talk to employers, talk to industry experts, go look at the accreditations website and see what they talk about that institution so that you can be an informing factor to you in selecting your graduate school experience and that by attending a school or university that is accredited, you can have some assurance that it has been validated by a third party source.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:04]: Well, Daniel, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing not only your own journey, but sharing so much about accreditation, why it's important, and why anyone that's thinking about graduate school should be thinking about accreditation and should be asking questions about accreditation because it is important. And I truly appreciate you sharing this because I know that it will add some additional questions that people should be asking and hopefully now will be asking as they are going through this process for themselves. So thank you. Thank you for your time and I wish you all the best.

Daniel Sessions [00:29:37]: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:39]:

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together as you are going through and figuring out those steps that you are taking to prepare yourself to go in, go through, and even go out of attending graduate school. And that's why this show exists. It's here to be able to give you some hints, some tips, some tools, some things that you can learn from that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. I love being able to sit down and talk with you every week because there are things that you can do right now, things that you can do to prepare yourself, to make sure you're asking the right questions and making sure that you're prepared for identifying the right schools for you if you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: If you're at the very beginning or that you're making sure that you know what to do as you're going through that school and as you're looking at the light at the end of the tunnel. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you do just that. And today we got another great guest. Daniel Sessions is with us. And Daniel is an accreditation officer for the national association of Academic Excellence Incorporated. And we're going to talk about that because I've talked about accreditation in the past. If you've ever gone to any of the webinars that I've done or you've heard me talk about. Things to look for when you're looking at schools, when you're considering different schools.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And accreditation is one of those things that not everybody asks about. It's kind of in the background. Sometimes you see it on a website, but it is something that is important, and it's something that you should know about. So we're gonna be talking about that as well. But first and foremost, I'm really excited to have Daniel here. We're gonna have him talk a little bit about his own experiences as well. So, Daniel, thanks so much for being here.

Daniel Sessions [00:01:59]: Thanks, Dr. Lewis, for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to have you here today, to have you talk about not only accreditation, but some of your own graduate school journey. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Southern Illinois University and then you graduated Went out into that workforce, graduated, got some experience, and at some point you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to continue and go on and get further education. Can you bring me back to that point and what made you make the decision that you wanted to take that next step?

Daniel Sessions [00:02:31]: So I have to give a shout out to an identity piece that I have, and that is not only a first generation undergraduate student, but a first generation graduate student. And so at that point, where I decided to go back to graduate school was I had seen the benefits that formal undergraduate education had given me as I entered, entered into the workforce. And I knew I had a taste of the nice sweet fruit. And I realized that it could only be better if I furthered my education and deepened my understanding in a very specific specialization area. And so I went on about a 12 month experience process where I tried to decide, well, what was it? There are many different areas that you could go study that you could elect to do. In addition and above and beyond that, where could I go? And so ultimately I decided to enroll and go to graduate school to better my life and to give myself not only some upward mobility in a credential perspective, but, but also just to gain further light and knowledge in my life so that I could be the best professional that I could be through advanced education. Because I felt like I was made for that and I wanted to experience that myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:29]: Now you just talked about that. You went through that process of looking at programs, looking at schools, figuring out what you wanted to do and where you wanted to go, and I guess bring me to that point, talk to me about what you did as you were looking and, and exploring those different schools. And I know you ultimately decided to attend Northwestern University to get a Master of Science in Strategic Communication and Law. What made you decide that Northwestern was the right school? And what made you decide that Strategic Communication and Law was the right program?

Daniel Sessions [00:04:01]: So I was at a pivotal point in my adult career where I had spent the first just over a decade in clinical healthcare and had exited clinical healthcare to start teaching human anatomy and physiology at a local technical college. And I really had a departure point that I was grappling with. It was either double down and go back and go to graduate school in the form of clinical medicine, or specialize in a different area. And I loved working in education and I knew that higher education administration was something that I could see myself having a very long and rewarding career on. Now, around that same time frame, we were seeing a lot of change in the higher education space. And A lot of change in the regulatory space as it relates to oversight of education, the 2008 through 2010 and 11 timeframe. And I decided ultimately not to pursue and continue to pursue clinical healthcare, but to specialize in an area that would help me in higher education administration and strategic communications. I've always liked to talk, I've always liked to present.

Daniel Sessions [00:04:57]: And it was just something that I felt as though was part of who I am and what I do. And so to be able to rally the allegiance of my associates through words and present material and clear and concise manners was something that I was looking for. And so as I evaluated Northwestern and suburban Chicago, not only the reputation of the institution, but also the program, as I evaluated it, just seemed like it fit my needs very well. And I was very excited to jump in with both feet.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:23]: Now, every student, when they go from undergraduate into graduate work, there is a transition that you go through, a transition in the way in which faculty are expecting things of you, transitions in the way that you have to read, in the way that you have to write, in the way that you have to do a lot of different things. You were successful, you came into the program, you got through the program. As you made that transition from undergrad to workforce and then workforce back into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school journey?

Daniel Sessions [00:05:58]: I had to be very self disciplined in setting some boundaries for myself. If I knew I was going to be focusing on other responsibilities, I wouldn't be sort of half in my studies, my research, my assignments, my writing. If I was in school mode, I needed to be in school mode and remove all other distractions out of my life. At this time in the season of my life, I was a young father. I was working to make ends meet and go to graduate school at the same time. So my plate was quite full. And so I had to dedicate and create some boundaries for my own self so that I could give everything I had to my scholastic endeavors. And so that's really what I attribute a lot of my success to.

Daniel Sessions [00:06:33]: But also just some of those intrinsic motivation factors. Really wanting to do this not only for myself and for the process of learning and growth, but also for the process of my family and my young growing family. That really helped from a motivational perspective, to really buckle down, even when I was tired, to stick with it and take everything that I could out of the activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: I mentioned earlier that you are working for the national association of academic excellence. And in that association, they are an association that is working on accreditation and accreditation for institutions, for programs. And it's not something that everyone talks about. It is not something that that especially academics talk about it, Universities talk about it. It's really important for universities for programs. But when it comes to students looking at graduate schools, when it comes to parents and students in high school looking at schools, it's not a question that is usually on the tip of their tongues. So I guess first and foremost, before we delve too deep into this, one of the things that I was really interested in having you talk about is for someone just starting to explore graduate school, how would you explain accreditation in the simplest terms?

Daniel Sessions [00:07:41]: The simplest terms I would use would be legit quality assurance and long term value. Those are the three main things that I would attribute to accreditation and what accreditation affords an institution as you're evaluating whether or not to attend graduate school there. Now, I can't talk about accreditation without rewinding the clocks back a hundred years. And when you go back 100 years ago, what did accreditation start as? And what was the main focus of accreditation when it was really entering the scene of higher education 100 years ago? And that was really quality assurance and academic excellence, Focusing on the academic rigor of the programs, the courses, the assignments, the faculty, the scholarship, you know, really putting a seal of approval on this is what you get when you are an accredited institution through this enterprise. Over the last hundred years or so, and especially in the last few decades, we've seen accreditation take on multiple different arms. And it's by virtue of just the competencies that accreditors have to offer institutions. And so we've seen over the course of that time period, accreditation start to be focused in some other areas as well, and some would argue focused in those areas more so than what they originally embarked on the journey of accreditation to do. And so I think accreditation is really, really important.

Daniel Sessions [00:08:56]: And specifically asking questions around how does that accreditation assure academic excellence within the institution? What role does quality assurance play in continuous improvement of the courses and the programs at that institution? And so accreditation, think about it as a seal of approval or an extra meas of academic excellence, as a distinction or as a distinguishing factor for that institution to talk about when you're thinking about matriculating into a graduate program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: I appreciate you sharing that. And I know that as someone hears the word accreditation, they're going to hear institutional accreditation and they're going to hear programmatic accreditation. What is the difference between institutional accreditation and programmatic accreditation. And why does that distinction matter to students?

Daniel Sessions [00:09:43]: That distinction matters greatly. And there are two very different specific lenses that those accreditors look at. Institutional accreditation. Think about it as a 30,000 foot view with microscopes down into specific areas. It is over the entire institution at large, their entire process of continuous improvement, their entire process of faculty qualifications and institutional effectiveness. It looks at the college and the university as a whole. Whereas programmatic accreditation is specifically focused on a discipline of study or a school of study within that institution. So let's say it's a business programs accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:10:18]: They look at the business programs in a similar way that an institutional accreditor will look at the entire institution. A programmatic accreditor will look at the entire operations within that given program. And it's considered or sometimes referred to as a specialized accreditor for that specific reason, because they have specific and distinct oversight of those areas that require specialized things in those specific programs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:43]: Now, when someone first goes onto a website, programs that are accredited are going to make it very clear that they're accredited. Sometimes it can be in small print and still be on a page, and sometimes it's not, as always, easy to find. But usually a program will be very proud of the fact that they've been accredited by a agency. As you think about graduate students that are considering different programs, why should prospective graduate students pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:11:10]: Well, you should pay attention to accreditation when choosing a program for a couple of reasons. One, programmatic accreditation is largely voluntary. It's voluntary in the fact that there are many programs out there that may not be programmatically accredited. And you have to understand why that matters. Now, as you're approaching, say, a specific discipline of study that has and or leads to some form of professional licensure within your state or within your country, it's really, really important to attend a programmatically accredited program. There are higher standards on the outcomes of those graduates that lead to licenses within their given discipline or their given employment field, say accountancy, for example, or some healthcare examples, or social work, mental health type providers, or even teachers. Right? By looking at programmatically accredited programs, you're basically understanding that they are meeting very specific outcomes that these accreditors will require of these programs that are competencies demonstrated and or retained by graduates of that program. And so if you're thinking about and evaluating programmatic accreditation of a given program, it's really, really also too important to know, does this program lead to some form of specific type of licensure or specific type of approval to be employed in that field.

Daniel Sessions [00:12:29]: And if so, that should even bump up your priority level of a programmatically accredited program even more so in thinking.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:35]: About that, it seems like you're saying that especially for those credential programs, there are definitely some risks or consequences of not enrolling in a program. So what are some of those risks or consequences that students should be aware of if they don't enroll in a program that has that proper accreditation?

Daniel Sessions [00:12:54]: The best example that I can give you is one within the clinical healthcare space. You know, and somebody that was educated internationally, they could find themselves not being able to be appointed to the boards here within the United States to practice in that clinical healthcare profession. They could find employers that are unwilling to employ graduates of unaccredited programs. And so while you may be able to navigate the academic journey and attain many of your scholastic endeavors that you want to obtain for your own personal sort of intrinsic value, the outcome of an unaccredited program may ultimately be difficulty in the life after graduate school. What does that look like after and how do I demonstrate that while I did have and achieve great learning, some employers may not even entertain discussing potential employment with you if you did not attend a programmatic the accredited program?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:44]: Well, another example, I worked at a law school for almost 10 years, and there are law schools that are accredited only in certain states. And if you attend a law school that is accredited only by, let's say, California, you can only practice in California and sit for the bar exam in California. You cannot sit for any other bar exam in any other state. You can only sit for the bar exam in that state. So you have to be really willing to stay in one state to use that license if you're going to sit for the bar exam. It doesn't take away the fact that you got a JD but it does take away the ability to be able to sit for the bar exam and take that credential with you and sit for other bar exams in other states. So that's just another example that could be a risk if you are not asking those right questions on the way. Are there other, other impacts that you can think of, Daniel, that this accreditation can impact, like financial aid or transfer of credits or other aspects that students should be thinking about?

Daniel Sessions [00:14:44]: Yes, absolutely. And so if continuing education, if you're, if you consider yourself like I do, a lifelong learner and you decide that you would like to even level up, let's say you're considering a master degree right now, but you're not closing the door on potential Doctoral studies someday, sometimes depending on where your ultimate terminal degree efforts will go toward, they may not accept a subordinate master's degree if it doesn't come from a institutionally accredited institution or even potentially a programmatically accredited program. And where I think there's sort of been an escalating factor in this area is I am a study of technology. I love the way we're leveraging technology and our learning nowadays and the ability and the freedoms that we've discovered in still maintaining academic rigor and academic excellence while leveraging technology in our studies. We also have to be very, very careful about selecting, for example, online education and what are the impacts like you've identified with a law degree that you may need to consider? What are the specific approvals that that online program offers? Yes. Does it have any residency based requirements? Does it have any long term employment related concerns like limited ability to procure the appropriate license or approval for your long term career journeys? So those are just a few things. As far as transferability of credit, when you start talking graduate school transfer of credit is less important than say undergraduate transferability just because of the number of institutions that sometimes students will attend before degree attainment. But it's still an appropriate conversation to have, especially as you're leveling up to the next level or going from a master's degree to a doctoral degree.

Daniel Sessions [00:16:20]: Some doctoral programs will recognize those subordinate masters and some will not. Just frankly will not. And so that's something you should definitely consider because don't shut the door on your own goals because you could find that you love higher level learning and want to continue up the doctoral level as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:35]: So I talked earlier about this conversation really leads to the fact that you have to know the questions to ask and you need to make sure that you're asking the right questions as you're going through this process of identifying the right program for you. So what are some of the most important questions that students should be asking schools or programs about accreditation before committing to a program?

Daniel Sessions [00:16:56]: So I think a very high level question that will be very telling and how these programs or these schools or these admissions officers or these program deans that you may be talking with as you're deciding whether to enroll or not? One of the higher level questions that you can ask is what role does accreditation play in your program or your institution? And hear their answer. If it's something that they have to take a minute to think about, well then maybe that's telling you something without actually telling you something by virtue of how they arrive at Their answer will tell you whether or not accreditation is something they think about every ten year cycle, or every five year report cycle, which are the typical reporting cycles in the accreditation world, or whether it's something that is really ingrained into the courses, the academic rigor, the continuous improvement that they engage in on an ongoing basis to make their program and their institution as best as it can be. You know a second question that you can ask, are really outcomes related and outcomes focused? You know, what do graduates of your programs typically do? And do you have examples of what types of graduate outcomes, what students have gone on to do after graduation? And so those are just a couple of things to say. Help me tangibly understand what role does accreditation play in the ongoing continuous improvement of your institution and your program, but also what does your program do in the lives of the graduates? Because I'm a firm believer that you can talk about how good your program is and talk about all the wonderful things that you do as part of that academic journey, but really how does it impact the lives of your students and your graduates? And that will be a very telling story.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:25]: One of the things that I know that sometimes you'll see on different websites as you look at different programs is that you may see something that says that a accreditation is pending or a program is on probation. What does that really mean? And should students be cautious when they see words like this?

Daniel Sessions [00:18:47]: So pending accreditation status is less problematic so than say a probation or a show cause or a specific type of monitoring distinction. Anytime you see probation, show cause, monitoring related statuses within accreditation, that means something, something has gone wrong. It may not necessarily mean that there's a systemic issue, but what it may mean is that they failed to demonstrate something specific to the standards or criteria or measures that the accreditor expects of partner and member based institutions or programs. And so that's definitely a point of question. Ask about that, ask about what led to that status. Ask about what they're doing now to resolve that status or when they expect that that status will be changed to a regular accreditation status. Now, the pending status, that may just mean it's a new accreditation for them. A lot of accreditations like the NAE that I work for, we will enter institutions into a pending status for a period of time while you, those institutions assess specific student outcomes and help those, there's that data about student success tell the story of academic excellence.

Daniel Sessions [00:19:54]: And so a pending status may just mean that it's either a new process for them or they're, they're going in a, in A RE certification process with that accreditation review cycle. And so it may just be a seasonality type thing where. Where they're currently in that RE review process. So pending is less concerning to me as it would be any type of what I would consider to be a negative distinction, like a show cause like a probation, like a heightened monitoring type status, because that's usually an indicator that something has gone awry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Speaking of accreditation status, how can students verify that a program's accreditation status is both legitimate, but also make sure that what is being shared on the website by the program is accurate and not misleading?

Daniel Sessions [00:20:38]: I'm a big fan of the Ronald Reagan quote, trust but verify. I think it's important to ask the institution about their programmatic status, but I have yet to find an accreditor out there in the higher education space that also doesn't give students and consumers the ability to look up the status of an institution. So ask them, but then verify that. Go to the actual accreditor, look and find the area wherein you can verify. And oftentimes under the accreditation tab of many institutional websites, they'll have a direct link to their accreditor's website where you can verify from the accreditor themselves, not the institution, what their current status is. And oftentimes publicly available documents like decision letters, like if there is a negative accreditation status, usually there'll be some form of documentation on the accreditor website that sheds a little bit of light. Obviously not down into the details or not into specifically personally protected information, but information on, well, maybe this institution failed to demonstrate successful outcomes of their graduation rates or something like that. So trust but verify.

Daniel Sessions [00:21:39]: Ask the institution. I think you owe it to the institution and the program to ask them themselves. Tell us your story about your accreditation and then go verify that with the actual accreditor themselves and you'll be surprised. You can find a lot of information if you just click 1, 2, or maybe even at most 3 clicks down to find the information that you're looking for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:57]: One of the other questions that I have is that there are sometimes numerous types of accreditors that are out there, many types of accreditors for institutions, but there's also at times different accreditors for programs, and then there's programs that have no accrediting body. So how do you sift through the milieu in regards to all the different plethora of different accrediting bodies that are out there to know what you're actually seeing and able to really know what matters as you're looking at the Fact that, yeah, the institution is accredited by AACSB or some other agency, but what does that really mean and what should they be looking for in that regard?

Daniel Sessions [00:22:44]: Yeah, so accreditation is definitely something that we're hearing a lot about in higher education right now. And one of the things we call it the regulatory triad in higher education, there's the federal level, the U.S. department of Education, there's the accreditors, you know, the institutional and programmatic accreditation. But then there's also the state approving agencies where these institutions operate their schools. And so if you're unsure about a specific accreditor and whether or not they have the distinction that they say they do, well, you can go out and take a look at do they have federal approval through the U.S. department of Education? Are they a part of different creditor type associations like chia, which is a great distinction that you can find from an accreditation perspective. Now that's more so for an institutional accreditation from a programmatic accreditation. It's also about how is it regarded within the industry with which that they accredit programs? How does the business community look at that specific business accreditor? How does the health professions community look at this specific accreditor? And so there's always one, two or three ways in which you can sort of corroborate whether or not a specific accreditor has the distinction and the reputation that they themselves will say in the marketplace that they have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:55]: So as I think about accreditation a little bit further, in your perspective, how does accreditation adapt to new fields of study or emerging disciplines in graduate education, undergraduate education, like you said that maybe they don't have an accreditation body yet because they're a new field of study.

Daniel Sessions [00:24:13]: So I think that's part of what I like to call, and we talk a lot about at the NAAE is continuous quality improvement. How does the institution find ways to apply the pedagogies that they engage when teaching and learning at their institution, but also the scholastic endeavors, the research, and how do they create these new programs in these new discipline areas? You know, think about, you know, 10 years ago, we weren't talking a lot about artificial intelligence engines and algorithms that create these types. And now, you know, you're getting degree programs in these specific areas. So how does that come to be? That can come to be from industry review boards partnering with institution or with providers of specific business sector things. What do they need in graduates to fill their entry level or managerial type roles? It can be in calling upon a new and additional research that the, the faculty will engage in to discover more about that discipline of study or that program of study. And so it's what I would say is germane to the sort of the academic experience as we develop into new areas, new technologies, new fields of study. How did they arrive at that? How are they continuously looking for ways in which to make their program the best that it can be for the students who ultimately raise their hand voluntarily and say, I want to learn that, I want to do that and I want to, to take that back out into the, into the world and be a contributing member of society.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:31]: So talking about your organization, I mentioned the fact that there are different organizations. There are university accreditors, there's programmatic accreditors, and each one looks at things a little bit differently. Talk to me about your organization. What makes your organization different in how you look at programs or how you look at institutions and how it stands apart from other agencies?

Daniel Sessions [00:25:55]: Sure. So the national association of Academic Excellence has sort of that differentiator that I'll share with you in the name itself, and that is academic excellence. That story that I told you earlier about going 100 years ago, when accreditation first started, that was really the central focus was that academic excellence piece. And it's our opinion over the years that accreditation has, while continued to pay attention to academic excellence, placed importance on other federal compliance areas. As at the federal level, different demands were being placed on accreditors. So one of the things that the main differentiator of the NAAE is the data set with which we will assess and seek quality assurance in the way that outcomes are being generated from an institution. Oftentimes you have to submit a self study or an assurance argument that talks about and shows data as to why and how you do what you do and back it up by evidence. And oftentimes that evidence that's examined is backwards looking or what happened last academic year and tell us a story about how that assures that you meet the standards and the measures of the accreditation.

Daniel Sessions [00:26:57]: Whereas at the NAE, we actually ask you to make a plan and make a hypothesis and say this is how we intend to drive the outcomes that we're looking to drive within our programs and then go assess it for an academic year or two and at the end of that data set, that academic year or two, come back and tell us your story, what you thought you were going to do, did it actually happen and what were the main drivers to make that happen in the real lives of the students that were in those programs within your institution, and if it didn't, what went wrong? And what will you do different next academic year to improve those outcomes? And so rather than crafting a story and an argument about your compliance with the standards and the measures by looking backwards at stuff that's already happened, we ask you to take a snapshot in real time about where you're going and then go there and then tell us whether or not you were right or wrong and what you're going to do differently as you attempt to continuously improve over the next few academic years. And so that's. And when people ask what's the main differentiator of our emerging accreditation, that's what I believe is the big differentiator.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:57]: Finally, in regards to accreditation, what final piece of advice would you give to prospective graduate students about accreditation and making an informed choice?

Daniel Sessions [00:28:08]: I would just remind you that accreditation matters again. Where accreditation started was the pursuit of academic excellence, academic rigor and faculty thought leadership. As you continue on that educational journey and ensuring that the faculty are unbridled from undue political pressure or that they are giving back to the communities in the discipline which they're studying and that accreditation should help tell that story. And don't just rely upon the word of one or two trust, but verify. Ask the questions. Don't shy away from asking the questions, but then go verify for yourself. Talk to employers, talk to industry experts, go look at the accreditations website and see what they talk about that institution so that you can be an informing factor to you in selecting your graduate school experience and that by attending a school or university that is accredited, you can have some assurance that it has been validated by a third party source.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:04]: Well, Daniel, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing not only your own journey, but sharing so much about accreditation, why it's important, and why anyone that's thinking about graduate school should be thinking about accreditation and should be asking questions about accreditation because it is important. And I truly appreciate you sharing this because I know that it will add some additional questions that people should be asking and hopefully now will be asking as they are going through this process for themselves. So thank you. Thank you for your time and I wish you all the best.

Daniel Sessions [00:29:37]: Yeah, thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:39]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umich.edu.

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Embarking on graduate school is more than just an academic decision—it’s a deeply personal journey marked by self-discovery, challenge, growth, and, ultimately, transformation. In the recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Dr. Jonathan Bartels, Assistant Professor of Education at the University of Michigan-Flint, to explore the realities of pursuing advanced degrees and the invaluable lessons learned along the way.

Dr. Bartels’ candid reflection on his path—from an undergraduate at East Carolina University to earning his master’s while teaching, and then pursuing a doctorate at UNC Chapel Hill—sheds light on several key themes that resonate with anyone considering or currently navigating graduate education.

1. The Nonlinear Nature of Academic Paths

One of the central takeaways is that the journey to and through graduate school isn’t always mapped out from the start. Dr. Bartels never planned to pursue a master’s or a doctorate—he was fueled by a desire for deeper intellectual engagement and the encouragement of mentors who saw potential in him. His story reassures listeners that it’s okay—and often beneficial—to let curiosity and passion guide your next steps, even if they diverge from your original plan.

1. The Power of Mentorship and Community

Dr. Bartels emphasizes how pivotal faculty relationships were to his development, especially choosing graduate programs based on the research interests and support of specific professors. Connecting with advisors and building a supportive cohort community can ease transitions and provide both professional opportunities and emotional sustenance.

1. Managing Mindset and Embracing Growth

Imposter syndrome and self-doubt are common companions in graduate school. Dr. Bartels opens up about normalizing these feelings and maintaining perspective: your presence in a program is evidence of your worth, and challenging moments are natural signs of growth. Reframing experiences from “jumping hoops” to opportunities for learning and self-betterment is key for long-term success.

1. Balancing Life and Prioritizing Well-Being

Graduate study often means juggling academics, work, family, and personal commitments. Dr. Bartels offers practical advice—set boundaries, proactively communicate with faculty, make time for rest, and remember that self-care is not a luxury but a necessity for sustainable, effective learning.

1. Purpose-Driven Learning

Most crucially, Dr. Bartels reminds us to continually revisit our “why” for pursuing graduate education. Anchoring your studies in your personal and professional aspirations provides resilience, motivation, and a sense of direction to weather the inevitable challenges.

Whether you’re contemplating graduate school or already in the trenches, this podcast episode is packed with honest advice and encouragement. Listen in to gain insight and inspiration for your own academic journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: Experts about what it takes to find.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:00:08]: Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are working together on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is. As you go from your undergraduate degree to looking at the possibility of a graduate degree, or maybe you've already applied, you got an accepted, or maybe you're even in a graduate program now. This continuum that you're on is definitely a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: You're going to learn a ton along this whole pathway. But there are things that you can do right now to prepare yourself better for the future that you want to attain. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to. To identify ways in which you can be successful in this graduate journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you in many ways to learn things that they may not have known along the way that they had to learn the hard way, and maybe gain some additional insight that can help you as you go through your own journey. This week we got another great guest with us. Dr.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:24]: Jonathan Bartles is with us. And Dr. Bartles is an assistant professor of education at the University of Michigan, Flint, and he has his own educational journey that he went on to get his doctorate and now be teaching at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to be able to have him here today and to have him share some of his own experiences. Jonathan, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:01:46]: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: It is my pleasure, really excited to have you here today to be able to talk about this journey that you went on. And I, as I said, it is a journey. And I know you did your undergraduate work at East Carolina University. You stayed on for a master's degree there and then went on to get a doctorate. Every person comes to thinking about graduate school in a little bit different way. And I guess for you, I would love to take you back to that point, take you back to those days at East Carolina University where you were getting that Bachelor of Science degree in English Language Arts and Teacher education. And at some point you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on into a graduate career degree, and you made that Choice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:32]: So talk to me about that. What made you choose that graduate education was the next step and that you were going to continue on?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:02:39]: Yeah, absolutely. So it actually wasn't part of my plan. I graduated with my undergraduate and I started teaching. And my plan was to. I'm going to go teach and I'm going to enjoy it. And I loved teaching. The first year of teaching is. We often refer to it as kind of treading water.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:02:51]: It's. You're trying to, you know, just figure everything out in your own classroom. So I was doing that and that was really fulfilling and time consuming. But at the end of that first year, I realized that there's a level of intellectual engagement that happens at a university campus that doesn't happen at like a high school campus. It's not to say I didn't have brilliant colleagues and phenomenal students who were pushing me intellectually, but there was a piece that I felt like that I realized I was missing from being on the university campus. And so I thought about it and kind of looked around and decided to stick with East Carolina University to go back and work on my master's while I was continuing to teach, to get back into some of those academic conversations. And I was coming to get involved with different research projects and things like that. And so it was just a way for me to keep that type of thing going.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:03:35]: And that was really my drive to. That sent me back to grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:39]: Well, you just mentioned that you stayed on at East Carolina University and getting a Master of Arts in Education in English. And I guess one of the questions that I have is taking you back to when you made that decision that you were going to continue on. There are a lot of different Master of Arts programs that are out there, lots of different English programs that are out there. You chose to go back to your undergraduate institution to be able to get that degree. Talk to me about that decision making process for yourself. Maybe what you were looking for in a degree and what made you ultimately choose to stay at the same university for your master's.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:04:16]: There are a ton of options. And within North Carolina, there are phenomenal schools and colleges of education that I could have selected from and still been on that wonderful in state tuition that they had there at that time. I decided to stay with East Carolina because of the faculty. There was one particular faculty within English education that I had already kind of been doing a little bit of work with. And it was somebody that we had a lot of similar interests and connections. And so for me, that was my driving force. For staying with ECU was. His name's Dr.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:04:44]: Todd Finley. Really interesting work that he does with different types of emotional awareness and technology and looking how technology is influencing ed. And I wanted to continue my work with him. And so really it was about really the faculty and the faculty's research interests that kind of made me want to stay there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: Now you stayed at East Carolina, got your degree, and at some point during that point in time, you made a big shift in deciding to completely move outside of teaching at the K12 level to going beyond. And you decided to apply for PhD programs. Talk to me about that decision for yourself. And you ultimately decided to go to the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Again, lots of PhD programs that are out there. So talk to me about that decision making process as well.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:05:33]: Absolutely. Just like going to get my Master's, I wasn't planning to get a PhD. I wasn't planning to go in those directions. But as I was working on my master's, as I mentioned, I was becoming more involved in research projects and I was getting more and more into that. And I really loved teaching. I loved the school I was at. I kept saying, like, I don't know why they're paying me for this. I just feel like I'm coming and playing and being a nerd about literature and writing.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:05:54]: And so for me, teaching was. It was a lot of play. It was just a lot of fun for me. But I remember one morning I got to my classroom early and I was working on one of the research projects I was doing with Dr. Finley. And the bell rang for students to come in. And my thought was, I really wish it was like a work day or something so I can keep working on this research project. And that kind of made me sit back at my desk and go, wait.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:06:18]: Like, I really like these students. I really love what I'm doing, but I'm wishing my students weren't here today so I could do this. And that kind of made me go, okay, I need to. What is my future? What is my path forward? And so at that point, it became that search of, okay, I think I need to go get a doctorate, Because I'm starting to get really into the research. And I was starting to facilitate professional development opportunities for teachers. And so getting into some of that teacher education piece, I was getting really interested in that. So it's kind of seeing, seeing the writing on the wall for my future. As I started to look at schools, I spent probably a year or two looking at different programs.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:06:53]: As I was finishing up my master's and just trying to figure out which is going to be the right program for me. It started out with a national search, and I started looking at. I think I was looking at Stanford, Arizona State, and then Chapel Hill came in as one of my selections to figure out which program was best for me. I worked very closely with Dr. Finley and said, hey, help me figure this out, because I need to figure out where. Where's the right spot? And so he had insights about schools, and he also reached out to his network to say, hey, I've got this student. Here's what they're interested in. What do you think? And so it helped me narrow it down.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:07:26]: And for me, landing at Chapel Hill, it was ultimately, I really liked the work they were doing there. And once again, looking at the faculty that are there, I think, especially for a doctorate program, that is a critical piece of seeing. Are there faculty there who can advance the things that you're curious about? Can they take you to where you want to be? I was interested in technology, but really wanted to look more at the sociological aspects of technology and kind of, what do they mean beyond their immediate usage? And there are some phenomenal faculty at UNC Chapel Hill who are really looking at some of those sociocultural underpinnings of education and approaching technology in that same kind of way that wasn't super technocentric, but much more a sociological approach. And so that's really kind of what led me to Chapel Hill as well as just some guidance advisor. Dr. Finley's wife commented to me one time about my social support network and being connected with groups that I was connected with in North Carolina. And how, from her perspective, she said, this seems like a very important thing for you. Is that something you're willing to just give up and move? And I was like, that's a.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:08:27]: That's a really good point. And so it was a lot of different things that drove me to Chapel Hill. And going from one in state school to the flagship was. Was a little bit of a pain in my ECU Pirate heart to become a Chapel Hill Tar Heel, but it was absolutely worth it and wouldn't have traded it for anything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: With all of those different degrees, there are transitions that you go through. There's transitions from your going from undergrad to your master's degree for your master's degree to your doctorate degree. At each level, there are different expectations, different perspectives, different things that faculty are going to expect of you as a student, as a learner, and as you think back to the graduate school, experiences that you had and you think about those transitions for yourself. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into those different programs, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:09:22]: I think it becomes a staggered piece through my master's program. It was about just kind of really working closely with my advisor in that he very quickly saw where I was going and was starting to tailor things for me to kind of shape the master's degree in a way that was going to help me get to my eventual goals. So I think working closely with him and just kind of going through the process of that master's program was. Was big and really taking advantage of different opportunities that were there with the opportunities to. To research as well as do my own research for my thesis, and then present that both at conferences as well as at different things on campus, just to kind of help, kind of share my work and get my work out there and practice some of that, I think, was really big. And so I was presenting a whole lot and starting to wr pieces and articles in collaboration with Dr. Finley, as well as writing up my thesis work for publication. And so those things, I think, are really important to take advantage of, because I think those are things that are often on the side, but can be a really important piece because it gets you plugged into those larger professional networks and kind of get your name and work out there, which is really important at the doctorate level.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:10:28]: If I thought that my relationship with my advisor was important to my master's, like, that was a great, lovely thing to have that phenomenal relationship with Dr. Finley. Having a good relationship with my advisor through my doctorate program was absolutely critical. And while we didn't always have things as aligned, Dr. Cheryl Mason Bullock is an amazing scholar and was such a phenomenal advisor. And working closely with her and following her guidance on things was really, really important. One of the things that I think, which Cheryl didn't always like because she was very optimistic, and she felt like I brought a realism that it made her a little bit uncomfortable at times. But Dr.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:11:06]: Finley's wife from East Carolina had commented to me about how difficult it was for her to watch Todd go through his doctorate program and just some of the emotional toll that learning at that kind of level can take. And so for me, that was something that constantly played in my mind. And I shared that with Cheryl. And she. I think she's kind of like Mary Poppins, just always positive and practically perfect in every way. And so me saying, like, oh, yeah, like, I'M going to get broken, I'm going to feel down, I'm going to do those things. But that's also nor. And part of this extreme growth that I'm going through in such a short span.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:11:40]: And so for me, keeping those kinds of things in mind were really important that when working on a graduate degree you are going to be pushed, you are going to be stretched to your intellectual limit. And that. That can be really difficult. Growth is always a difficult, painful process. But being able to recognize that that is what's happening. This is hard, this is difficult. I'm having doubts, but that's because I'm growing so much that I'm having these things and that this is a normal thing that. And so for me, that normalized it.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:12:09]: Whenever I would have those moments of doubt and go, okay, wait, no, this is just. It's part of the process. It's part of that growth. And I think that was an important thing, at least for me to keep in mind that it otherwise I would just go insular and say I'm just not cut out for this versus this is just part of the process. And so I think that things like that are important. And then also building community with the cohort that I was in my doctorate with, it was a rigorous thing that we were all in together. And so having community within that cohort was really, really important just for social morale and things like that to kind of get through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:44]: You know, one of the other things that comes to mind after hearing you say that is that I think every student that goes into a graduate program, not only do they go through these transitions, but they also go through mindset shifts as it comes to the way in which they learn, ways in which they have to process, et cetera. Talk to me about the mindset shifts that you had to make to be able to successful in graduate school.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:13:10]: I think that for part of it with undergrad, a lot of my. I think we see this with our undergrads as well and that sometimes it's. It's about compliance. Why am I in these classes? Well, because I'm supposed to be. Let me jump the hoop. It started within my master's program. I can still think of times when I definitely was hoop jumping. But then as I was getting to the doctorate program, it very much became about the grade doesn't matter.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:13:31]: Being somebody who gets that spot, it's really hard to say the grade doesn't matter, but really the grade doesn't matter. What's more important is what is my own growth? How am I seeing my work, am I happy with what I'm producing? And if I'm happy with it and it doesn't make an A or whatever the university is using as an equivalent of an A, does that actually matter? When really it's about my own growth and my own journey. As you were saying earlier, it's about, how is this preparing me, what am I getting from it? And that trying to make the most of every opportunity. I had some classmates who would look in some of our courses and kind of go, this is just a waste of time. It's like, okay, if that's your perspective of it, then yes, this will absolutely be a waste of time. But what can you learn from it? I always tell my interns that you can be in someone's classroom who's an amazing teacher and there's a lot to learn there. You could also be in a classroom with someone who's really not a good teacher, and there's a lot to learn there. And so it's about taking those opportunities and making sure that you are capitalizing on it and you are doing what you need to do to get the most out of it.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:14:27]: Because at the end of the day, those grades don't matter. But what you've learned and how you've grown is really the biggest piece. So for me, I think that was one of the big things is really getting to the spot of what can I get from this? And I don't really care about the grade. It's really about my own growth. And I think that part of it is also just the recognition of the privilege that it is to be able to attend grad school, whether it's the master's level or at the doctorate level. When you think about global population and Right. How does this put you with an education in the global population, you're among the the elite few who are getting these advanced degrees. And so it's really a privilege and an opportunity that I think needs to be really kind of taken advantage of.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:15:08]: Right. Don't minimize it and treat it as a hoop, but instead that idea, embracing it and really recognizing the value that is there in all the different opportunities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:15]: I appreciate you sharing that. The other thing that I hear from a lot of students is the fact that many students face imposter syndrome as they transition into these type of graduate programs. Talk to me about your own experience and whether you faced imposter syndrome or self doubt during those graduate studies and how did you handle it?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:15:37]: Oh, I face that every day. So for me, once again, like it was that piece where that pragmatic approach that my master's advisor's wife gave me of this is normal. I feel like I don't belong. I was studying alongside some brilliant, brilliant colleagues who even now, like, I look at their work and I'm just blown away by what they're doing. But it'd be really easy to get that I don't belong here. Look at who I'm in class with, who's absolutely brilliant, who's already accomplished so much. But the reality is I was accepted there and selected for that program to come there and do that work because the faculty there saw the value in me, me, and they saw what I can bring. And so it's about making sure that I'm bringing that.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:16:14]: And that idea of, I feel like I don't belong here. I feel like I haven't earned this. Those are very normal feelings that just about everyone has. And so for me, it was that big piece of normalizing it and normalizing the. That internal angst around things that helped me kind of deal with it whenever I would have it, and then whenever I'd get burnt out. My master's program, I was able to do while I worked, taking courses in the evenings, and then in the summers with my doctorate, I was required to do it full time. And so for me, whenever I got to those spaces of being just burnt out and just feeling exhausted and feeling overwhelmed, like I didn't belong, I would just kind of take a moment and sit back and think to myself, okay, like, especially with my doctor program of. My job right now is to read profound things and think deeply about them.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:16:58]: What an amazing luxury. That would always kind of snap me out of the funk that I was in. It's like, wow, this is what my job is right now, is to do this intellectual kind of work. What a. What a privilege. But also recognizing the, yeah, I'm going to feel bad about things some days, and so is everybody else. We're proud. Probably not going to talk about it, because when you have that imposter syndrome feeling, you think it's just you, and so you internalize it.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:17:20]: But if everybody is having it now, everyone's just internalizing it, which makes you feel more like, well, nobody else is saying anything. But the reality is every single person in that room, every single person in that class has those feelings of the imposter syndrome and, like, they don't belong and all those. And so I think normalizing that is a really important piece.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:36]: Rewind and hear what Jonathan just said. Because in making sure that you do normalize it, talk about it and find those champions around you, those peers, those friends, those people that you are connecting with and talk about it, put it out on the table and you're gonna find, just like Jonathan said, they are feeling the same way. They're just not talking about it because they feel that they're the only ones that are feeling that way. And that's normal. So talk about it, put it out into the world. You're going to find that it's going to be reflected back and it's going to help you in the end to talk about that. Now, Jonathan, one of the things that is definitely challenging is many times when you're going to graduate school, you're balancing a lot. Many times you are trying to do work, you're doing research, you're trying to keep up relationships, you're balancing school, work, family, personal responsibilities, a lot of different things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:30]: How did you balance all of that while you were going through those graduate programs?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:18:33]: Programs? I don't know. When I was working on my doctorate, that was my full time gig. There were some times that there was other pieces like as I was working on my research and trying to maintain hours of my assistantship that was paying my tuition and you know, healthcare, that was super important. It could be a stretch, it could definitely be some late nights. One of the faculty members I worked with made a comment to me, which in some ways I appreciated. In some ways I kind of was like, oh, wouldn't that be nice? But her comment was, pulling an all nighter is not a badge of honor. It says you're not managing your time well. Which in some ways I kind of appreciate, appreciated hearing that.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:19:06]: But in other ways, sometimes you can't manage your time any better and you have to pull that all nighter to get something done. And so there's that balance which that idea of like, oh, forcing myself to suffer isn't a badge of honor. Like, what do I need to do to maintain my own life, my own sanity and still accomplish What I need to accomplish is a big piece. While I was working on my master's and teaching full time and then taking one or two courses per semester in the evenings. That could be a lot at times, especially as deadlines came up. There was one time that I just was swamped in the semester and had to take a personal day off from my school to just sit down and just grind out work all day to get myself caught back up. But the biggest piece was open communication with the professors that I was working with. And making sure that they knew what was going on.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:19:51]: And if I was running behind on something, being communicative about it proactively, not waiting until it's due or the day after and sending a note. But hey, I'm really trying to hit this deadline that's coming up, but I've got XYZ happening at my school, so I might be a little bit late, if that's okay. And trying to figure out what could be done there is really, really important. So I think that proactive communication is critical for balancing out some of those difficult times and remembering to just take care of yourself. I think that was one of my biggest things, is just that idea of if I am exhausted both physically and intellectually and emotionally, I'm just burnt out and exhausted. I'm not going to be able to work efficiently and I'm not going to produce good work. So while it may seem counterproductive, me taking a couple of hours to take a nap or, or go for a walk is actually going to make my work more efficient and better when I come back to it because I am rested and I'm recharged. And so I think that that's a really big piece in trying to balance things is making sure that you are taking care of yourself because a healthy you is going to do better than a strung out you.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:20:58]: And so I think that's a really important piece to it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:00]: A lot of the learning that happens within your programs happens in the class you have that the knowledge that you're learning in class, but there's also learning that happen happens as you're going through graduate school outside of the classroom for you. As you think about both of the degrees that you received post your bachelor's degree, what was the most valuable thing you learned outside of the classroom during.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:21:22]: Graduate school, I was able to make connections once again, going back to what I was saying about taking advantage of those opportunities. Being a graduate assistant for a professor that I haven't taken any classes with, but there's an opportunity to work with them on some project that's going to maybe buy me a couple cups of coffee, but getting to work with that professor and take that time, you get to learn much more about what all is going on. And all the different possibilities are. A lot of times we go into degrees and we may have a kind of very narrow view of what is the outcome from this degree. Where is this going to take me? And so getting more exposure to different perspectives, different opportunities is really, really important for me. Getting out into the conferences was Huge. And spending time at national conferences and getting to know other people I think was one of the most important pieces for me. And learning like that kind of conference networking stuff that as an introvert exhausts me to no end.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:22:16]: But it's also so much value in getting to know that larger professional community outside of your own institution to see what all is there, what all they are doing and learn from them. And also if you're, you know, working on a doctorate, learning the ins and outs of places like higher ed. Higher ed is a complex place. And so being involved in different things on campus is really important because no matter what kind of degree you're working on, you're going into a work environment that's going to be complex. And so the more engagement and the more diverse perspectives you can take on within that arena, the more well rounded you're going to be in your own work in there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:51]: I appreciate you sharing that as well. As you think back to this experience that you went through, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started in graduate school as you think back now?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:23:04]: That's a, that's a really good question that I feel like can sometimes be hard to answer because there's some things that I was pre warned about. The emotional toll. I think that was a very important piece for me. Thinking about some of the, the different opportunities and being more prepared to engage in the opportunities I think is something that, that I needed and to think about what does that work look like within the profession. I know when I started presenting at conferences, my first presentation, I was sweating BU and just a mess until we got about halfway through it and my co presenter threw out a joke and I was kind of like, oh wait, this isn't, this can be fun and like I can play and I can joke around while doing this and not just be up here in a suit and really stiff. And so I think that getting to see some of that and getting to see where is the fun within the profession, where is the fun within the work and trying to make sure that you can see that all the time is a really important piece that even when there's that super tedious assignment, I feel like the research methods course courses that I teach now, students just dread because a research methodology textbook is essentially a glorified dictionary that we're working through. But helping students to see where's the fun in it? Where can you enjoy this? Where can you also take pieces and apply it within your work right now? So I think that finding ways to do that earlier in my graduate career would have been better. And some of those courses in my masters that I mentioned, like, I still kind of approached as a hoop jump, I could have and should have gotten more out of those.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:24:33]: I should have engaged with that a little bit more to see where is the benefit. And for me, one of my things is always, where's the fun? Like, how can I engage this? How can I entertain myself with this? How can I bring this into my own professional practice? I think that'd be an important thing to take on from the very beginning, if you can.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:48]: So finally, and this may be kind of a little bit of an add on to what you were just talking about. As you look back and think back to the. Your graduate education, and you think about students that are thinking about graduate education for themselves, whether it be in education or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer them as they consider graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:25:09]: The first question I always ask my students when they ask me about, you know, if they should pursue a master's or if they should pursue a doctorate, is, why, why do you want to do this? What is it that you're wanting to accomplish that this is going to lead you to? Sometimes it's, well, I want the pay bump that comes with it. Okay, well, let's try to think a little bit more broadly about that. Well, that pay bump is a very important thing. I don't want to minimize that. What can we get out of it? How can we make sure that it's beneficial for you beyond that financial piece? And so I think that that really is the biggest thing, because once you identify am I doing this? That then gives you something to anchor things to. And so for those courses that you look at and you go, well, this is just a hoop jump. Okay, but why are you doing it? Why are you doing this overall program? Why are you taking that course? How does that course contribute to this overall program? And therefore, how does it contribute to your goal and what you're trying to accomplish? And I think that, like, once you have that. That reason, once you have that clear answer to why am I doing this? That gives you that anchorage that is going to pull all the pieces together and give you that kind of motivation, that kind of drive to accomplish whatever it is you need to accomplish for your own learning in that space, because you have a reason.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:26:20]: It's not, well, I'm doing this because it's an assignment. It's, well, I'm doing this because this is leading to X for me. This is helping me get to where I want to be. And I think having that clear intrinsic motivation clearly narrated out is really important to provide that kind of work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:35]: Well, Jonathan, I just want to say thank you you thank you for sharing your journey today. I know it's a journey that we all continue on as we continue to learn and to grow ourselves and we continue to work with others and pass that learning on. And I always appreciate being able to have faculty and others on to be able to share that. So I thank you for doing that today, for sharing with others, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Jonathan Bartels [00:26:59]: Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:00]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umich.edu.

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Are you thinking about graduate school, or perhaps already navigating its hills and valleys? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School is a must-listen for anyone considering this transformative step. Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Amanda Seney, the Writing Center Academic Program Specialist at the University of Michigan-Flint, who shares her unique path through higher education and the invaluable lessons learned along the way.

Amanda’s story is one of perseverance, growth, and self-discovery. After a significant gap between starting and finishing her undergraduate studies, Amanda returned to academia more determined than ever. She didn’t just finish her degree—she flourished, embracing the experience by double-majoring and then moving seamlessly into a graduate program. For Amanda, the decision to pursue graduate studies wasn’t just about credentials; it was about personal growth and opening new doors, even when the destination was unknown.

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school, Amanda noticed a significant shift in expectations—not just from instructors, but from herself. She discusses the journey from following directions to taking initiative, where research projects became opportunities for self-direction and exploration. Amanda shares how this process required greater personal accountability, self-advocacy, and time management—skills that don’t just make for successful students, but for resilient professionals.

A recurring theme in Amanda’s reflection is the presence of “imposter syndrome” and self-doubt—a feeling familiar to almost every grad student. Her advice? Lean on support systems, whether it’s faculty, peers, or campus resources. Amanda credits her relationships with instructors and the collaborative atmosphere at UM-Flint as key to overcoming her doubts and achieving her goals. For non-traditional students balancing family, work, and school, Amanda is candid about the struggles of finding balance and sets realistic expectations: it’s not about perfection, but doing your best with the support you have.

Perhaps most eye-opening is Amanda’s emphasis on the importance of revision in graduate-level writing, advocating for multiple drafts and peer feedback. She reminds us that writing well is a process—and seeking help is a sign of strength, not weakness.

As Amanda’s story reveals, graduate school is not just an academic pursuit, but a journey of self-discovery, resilience, and community. If you’re pondering this path, want practical tips, or just need encouragement, tune in to this enlightening episode. Amanda’s journey isn’t just inspiring—it’s a roadmap for anyone aspiring to thrive in grad school.

Take a listen and equip yourself for your own victorious journey in graduate school!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find Success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity to be able to learn, to grow, to be able to learn from others in their experiences to help you in the journey that you're on. It truly is a journey because no matter where you are, there are things that you can do along the path to be able to prepare you, as well as to help you to find success as you go through that experience for yourself. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can talk about the graduate school journey that they had for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: Things that worked, things that maybe didn't work, things that they learned along the way that can give you some tools for your own toolbox and help you on the journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest. Amanda Senti is with us today. And Amanda is the Writing Center Academic Program Specialist at the University of Michigan, Flint. She works with graduate students on writing and helps them with the journey into being a graduate school writer. Because it is different. It is different in that journey from undergrad to grad, there are different expectations. Not only expectations from faculty, but expectations you have to put on yourself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: And Amanda is here to help students along that pathway. And she learned a lot of the things that she's helping students with in her own journey. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experience and to have her share some of those today. Amanda, thanks so much for being here today.

Amanda Seney [00:01:58]: Well, thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: Now, I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey, you made a choice. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on. You wanted to get a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point and tell me more about that decision and why you made that decision to continue your education.

Amanda Seney [00:02:23]: Yeah. Wow. Okay. So that is kind of a long story. I guess I should say that I started undergrad right after high school, but I had also gotten married at the same time. And my husband was in the military. We were out of state. There was a lot going on.

Amanda Seney [00:02:35]: And then we had kids, and I was not able to finish my undergrad at that time. And so I had a very long gap in between when I first started and then when I came back to finish. It was about 14 years before I came back to U of M to finish my undergrad. So then I started, and I think I had something like 90 some credits that I. I brought with me. I transferred in. And so I really could have finished fairly quickly. But I was so much enjoying the undergraduate experience and I was learning so much about myself and just about the world in general that I thought, well, okay, while I'm here, I also think, I think I'll do a double major because I'm not done with this undergrad stuff yet.

Amanda Seney [00:03:13]: And so I decided, okay, I'm going to do a double major. And so that extended my time a little bit. And I think it ended up being about two and a half years to finish my undergrad. But then I still just didn't feel like I was done because I was growing so much, just so much as an individual, as a member of society, as a. As an employee that I wasn't ready to be done yet. And I wanted to see what I could do at a graduate level. And so I just decided to make that kind of seamless transition at the time since I was kind of in the swing of school anyway at that point. So that was why I decided to keep going.

Amanda Seney [00:03:43]: And I just thought it would open more doors for me. I didn't know what those doors were going to be, but I wanted to see where it would go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:49]: So you went to that undergraduate degree. You made the decision to go to graduate school. As a lot of students do, they have to figure out for themselves what's the best program, program. Where should I go? You made a decision to stay at the University of Michigan Flint to go into a graduate program in English language and literature and continue your education there. Talk to me about that process for yourself and that decision for yourself. And what made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Amanda Seney [00:04:18]: Well, partly it was. I just really like the university. For one thing. I know that we have so many support system, and at that point I was familiar with so many of the resources. I also really liked the campus job that I had, which was working at the writing center. And I knew I could continue doing that because it is a great place and I love it and I wanted to be able to stay there. So that was part of the draw for the University of Michigan. I mean, honestly, goodness, it's just the quality of instruction is so high because I have been in other places, and they were also very good.

Amanda Seney [00:04:45]: But I really like what I had seen here. I liked that I knew they were going to be smaller class sizes so that I could continue those relationships that I had built with instructors. There was just so much with that now. Why the English language and literature in particular? I knew I wanted something in the humanities because I figured that's just what's close to my heart, and that's where I wanted to go, I guess. And I was also definitely working on creative writing at the time. And so that English language and literature gave me a lot more opportunity to do creative projects, which was important to me at that time, period.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:15]: So every student that goes to graduate school has to make a transition. I mentioned at the beginning that there's transition in expectations and how you're taught, but also there's transitions in how you have to write, how you have to think, how you have to process. There's a lot of different ways of learning that happens as you go into graduate school and go through graduate school. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. Because you found success, you got through the degree, you went through that process. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Amanda Seney [00:05:52]: I think one of the big things was it was a mental transition for me because in undergrad, you're used to doing what other people are telling you to do in order to get the degree. And like you, the instructor tells you what they want to see and you do that. And there is a lot of that in graduate school, too, but there's a lot more also of, well, you tell me what you want to do. I felt like. And so those research projects became very much, well, what are you interested in? And it was a challenge for me at the time to kind of get into that mindset of, oh, no, this is. I am making these decisions, and like, this is on me. And whatever that decision is, it's not good or bad or whatever. It's just whatever I decide, that's the direction we're going.

Amanda Seney [00:06:31]: So there was that level of. I don't even know what you call it, like a personal accountability or you're deciding for yourself. You're very much more in charge of a lot more aspects of it. So there was that. There was also. I mean, one of the big transitions for me was that projects got bigger. I was very used to being able to do things at the last minute, which is what you end up doing as Many of the non traditional students know, right, there's not a lot of time and so things get pushed back and other things take priority often. And I could not do that the way that I had been used to doing.

Amanda Seney [00:07:00]: And so that was a transition to try and make a better job of balancing things out and leaving myself time to do the things that needed to get done. And then there was also a little bit more of a transition to being able to advocate more for myself on those times when life really did get in the way and I could not get the things done to being able to go to the instructor and say, hey, I'm really sorry, but this is the situation. Is there a way we can work together and still make this thing happen? So that level of self advocacy and then whether they said yes or no, you know, that wasn't the point. It was really just being able to go to them, one professional, one adult to another, and say, hey, what can we do here? I think that was a big one to be able to look at the instructors not as this authority figure from on high necessarily, but as someone who we are working towards being in a professional relationship in a sense, like I am going into this scholarly community and I would like to be a co worker in a sense rather than this authority situation. And there's a lot more collaboration available in those areas.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:57]: A lot of students have told me that they face imposter syndrome as they go through that graduate school journey, that they have to hit it face on and they have to figure out for themselves, how do I deal with not only that imposter syndrome of saying, am I good enough? Should I be here? But also there's self doubt as you go through that program that you have to tackle as well. Talk to me about that for yourself and how that showed up for you in your own graduate study and how did you handle it?

Amanda Seney [00:08:31]: Oh, goodness, 100% okay. Wow. I guess part of that was like I was used to dealing that with that from undergrad because again, because there was such a big gap between when I started and when I went back. And so I was very much a non traditional student. I'm a first generation student. My people don't do this. I really didn't know what to expect. And that was bad enough at undergrad, but then we went into the graduate level and we have like no level of familiarity with what any of this looks like.

Amanda Seney [00:08:56]: So that was very intimidating. So how did I deal with that? So again, as I mentioned, right, because I had been in undergrad and because I was trying to use the resources available to me and the class sizes and all that. That I did have pretty solid relationships with several instructors who were always very, very encouraging and were willing to listen to me and just they always believed more in me and my abilities than what I believed in me and my abilities. And they were just excellent supports for that and for. Even when I didn't necessarily feel like I was, well, I didn't know what I was doing, but when I really felt like I didn't know what I was doing, they were there to be like, oh no, you're good, everybody feels this way and just keep going and you're going to be fine. So there was that, I guess so reaching out to the people around me as much as possible. I was also doing the graduate work. Some of this was still in like post Covid and so a lot of the classes were online.

Amanda Seney [00:09:45]: I didn't have a lot of the face to face connections with other students. That would have been nice. I imagine if you have a cohort like I know a lot of the programs do, that would have been a massive way to deal with that, to be able to talk it through with people going through the same thing, literally the same thing with you at the same time. But other than that, it was really just trusting the process and going forward and taking those pieces of ownership where I could and being able to step back and say, you know what, I did do a really good job on that. That was a pretty cool thing. Look at me, maybe I am in the right place. A lot of self forgiveness had to happen in some ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:19]: Now you also mentioned you were married, you had kids, you were balancing a lot of different things as you were going not only through the undergraduate work, but also as you continued on through that graduate degree. Talk to me about balance. How did you balance school, work, family, other responsibilities while in graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:10:40]: Largely I did it poorly, I would say. Now I was in a sit where my kids were a little older, so they were able to do a lot of things on their own. They didn't need as much from me. I can't imagine doing this with young children. Like you would have to be really truly on the ball with a lot of things. And that impresses me so much. Yeah. So those of you out there doing that, you are awesome.

Amanda Seney [00:11:01]: I mean, I did have a lot of support. My husband was very supportive. So he would pick up some slack where he could and then the kids were very much on board with now this is okay, Mom's got to go do this Right now. So we're going to leave her alone for now and then we'll come back later and we'll talk and do this right. Tried to carve out those times of, yes, I am available, yes, I am part of your life, but for this piece of time, no, I am not. And just to set some of those boundaries, I think was where we did. And then also so far as balance, like being able to step back and say, okay, maybe we don't take so many credits this time because there's been so much going on, looking at the realities of family life and other work life and things like that, and saying it's time to just take a little bit of a breather.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: You definitely need those breathers every once in a while. And having someone that can support you along the way is really important. Having those support systems in place is so important. Did you find as you were going through your graduate experience that you were able to build relationships with faculty or peers that were especially impactful in supporting you in this journey yourself? And if so, how were they supportive? And what did you learn about building those relationships that could help others in thinking about the support systems that they need?

Amanda Seney [00:12:18]: I think I already mentioned that I did have pretty close relationships with several instructors because I had taken so many of their classes at that point. So how were those supportive at that point? Because we had the relationship, like they knew my situation and I knew some of their situation and we kind of knew each other's interests even, right? So they could be like, hey, I was thinking this thing, what do you think? I ended up on a separate project, that it was a grant funded project actually, because of a relationship that I had with another professor. And she was like, hey, here's some thoughts I have on this thing. Would you be interested in being part of this? And I said, yeah, that sounds awesome. So that was like, that was super cool just being. They were so supportive of whatever my interest was because we had that relationship. And so we were willing to be like, well, this is not exactly where I thought that project was going to go. But yeah, okay, let's see where it goes.

Amanda Seney [00:13:05]: Because I trusted their advice and they trusted where I was at. So there was that in a lot of ways. And then also when I did need flexibility, could I have a couple extra days for this due date? You know, I'll get it to you before you start your grading on Monday, because I know that you start your grading on Monday. Then they were more likely to be like, yeah, okay, that's, you know, get it to me by this time, and then that'll be fine. So there was a lot of that with peers. I would say, yes, I did. And that was partly because we were taking some of the same classes together. And then we got, we did get to have some of that.

Amanda Seney [00:13:33]: Not a cohort relationship, I don't think, but some of that talking about the different things we've been reading and talking about those things and everybody feeling the imposter syndrome and being able to say, do you feel this? Yes, yes, I do. Oh, good. It's not just me, you know, just a lot of the. It's not just me and being able to geek out on ridiculous literature things. We just had a lot of fun. So being able to find somebody where it's. You can enjoy what you're going through I think is hugely important. How to go about that.

Amanda Seney [00:14:01]: I think I stumbled into most of mine. I will be honest, I'm not like a naturally social person. And so it's more of a. They probably pursued me more than I did them. I had to learn to trust a lot of people in ways that I hadn't been comfortable with. And that, I mean, that was a good thing, right? So being discerning, but being able to open up to, oh, this person really does think I'm kind of okay. And like, we really are enjoying the same things. And so that was, for me, that's how that happened.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:28]: I guess in thinking about what you have said, every person learns quite a bit inside the classroom. But as you go through a graduate degree, you're learning both in class and outside of the class, learning about not only the field, but learning about yourself, learning a lot of other skills along the way that are preparing you for the next step. What would you say was the most valuable thing you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:14:53]: I think for me, a lot of the growth that I experienced was very much in a professional kind of setting. And so it was just growing in confidence, I think, and saying, oh, no, this skill set that I have is a legitimate skill set and it's valuable and I can use it in these ways and I can have this responsibility that I didn't think I'd ever have. And I can work with people in a way that I didn't think I'd be able to do. So it was really a self discovery of a lot of things that I was capable of that I would not have guessed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: I guess now I mentioned the fact that you're working with graduate students on writing now, and I guess I would be Remiss to not have you talk a little bit about some of the things that you've seen with students as they come into graduate school and as they may struggle with that transition in and through graduate school in regards to their writing, what are some of the biggest challenges, stumbling blocks, things that people may not be aware of, that they may need to work on as they make that transition into graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:15:58]: I think, and this was for me too, and this is definitely something that I see with other writers making that transition. But in my opinion, and for the majority of writers, revision is not something that most of us have done much of at the undergraduate level. And it becomes so crucial when you are at the graduate level to commit to doing multiple layers of revision of whatever you're writing. The one done just doesn't work anymore because what you're working on is so much more complex and in depth. And so, I mean, being able and being willing to put in the time to block out that time to say, okay, my, my rough draft needs to be done on this day so that I have another two days to do a revision, so that I have another two days after that to go back and look at it again and again and again and to get the feedback, the peer feedback is another big one, I think, from people that are in the same situation are and are knowing the things that you're knowing. Right. To. To do more peer feedback, revision and feed.

Amanda Seney [00:16:53]: Yes. Get as many eyes on it as you can and it gets super cringey and it feels bad, but you get used to it and it's so, so useful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: Definitely don't be afraid to ask for help and go to that writing center that your campus may have. Go to other people to ask for assistance. Have some of your peers review. There's lots of ways in which you can do that. So definitely listen to what Amanda's saying and take advantage of that. Don't think that you have to be that expert coming in, because most students are not going to be an expert coming in. They are going to need some work along the way to become better. Even if you are a strong writer already, there's going to be a transition process for yourself in learning more about your own writing and what is expected in your program that may be different from what you have experienced in the past and will experience as you go into graduate school yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:47]: Now, as you think back to your own graduate school experience, what's something you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Amanda Seney [00:17:55]: I think one thing that would have been helpful, maybe somebody did tell me this, I don't know, would just have been that, like grad school is not the end of imposter syndrome, for one thing, it's, it's a long process. At least it is for me. And so when you, when you hit that moment of yes, I've graduated, and then you look around and say, now what? There's still a lot of adjustments that happen after that point too, I think is it can be anticlimactic and it shouldn't be celebrate that moment. But then there is still the what do I do now? So that was definitely a thing, I think. And then I think a lot of what I did learn in graduate school, it took me time, once I was done, to really digest it and let it all percolate and for it to settle in ways that I understood later, looking back at it. And so I think if somebody had just said, hey, this isn't going to make all the sense right now, but in a couple of years when you've had time to sit with this, like, it's all gonna, it's all gonna fit together in ways you didn't see coming, that might have been nice to know too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:52]: And finally, again, as you think back and you think of others that are thinking about graduate school, thinking about transitioning into graduate school, going through graduate school, what are some other tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Amanda Seney [00:19:08]: Definitely a number one. Be aware of the resources that are out there for you because there are so many people in the background who are on your side and want you to succeed. And there are so many things that you have access to that you don't necessarily know about unless you go and look for it. This is why the orientations are so important. This is why being familiar with the websites are so important. There's so much out there and it will make the journey so much easier and smoother if you can use those supports. I think that's a huge one. And I think being realistic about yourself and your situation, especially because many of our graduate students are again, the non traditional.

Amanda Seney [00:19:44]: You're living with families, you have jobs, and to just be cognizant of the realities of wherever you're at and to be okay with that and to work within that framework if you need to. Not everybody can handle doing full time. I know I could not. And that is an okay thing. There are, there are things to think about and to be realistic about. I think to just be kind to yourself where you can, because it is, it's a challenge. But it's doable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:07]: Well, Amanda, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for sharing the experiences that you had, the advice that you've given, and I wish you all the best.

Amanda Seney [00:20:18]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umich.edu.

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Are you considering graduate school or already planning your path forward? The latest episode of “Victors in Grad School,” hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, is a must-listen for anyone pondering the next academic step. This week’s guest, Scott Roy—Registrar at the University of Michigan-Flint and graduate of both UM-Flint (undergraduate) and Eastern Michigan University (graduate)—shares a candid, relatable perspective on what it takes to succeed in graduate school and beyond.

The Many Paths to Graduate School

Scott’s journey reminds us that there’s no single route to grad school. Originally envisioning a law career, he pivoted to history after discovering his passion. This decision wasn’t made lightly; he evaluated the available programs in Michigan, taking into account not only program content but also logistical factors like proximity to family and program structure. Scott’s story highlights how practical considerations (such as avoiding an extensive thesis in favor of a final exam) and personal life (being close to his partner) can shape academic choices.

Graduate School Is a Different Beast

One of the strongest themes in the episode is the significant jump in academic rigor and expectations at the graduate level. Scott describes being “a deer in the headlights” during his first semester—faced with daunting reading lists and heavier workloads, often while juggling a job. His advice? Go in prepared for a step up in both self-discipline and time management. The episode offers heartfelt reassurance that feeling overwhelmed is normal, and that students do eventually adapt and find their rhythm.

Finding Balance and the Importance of Support

Scott is candid about the challenges of balancing work, school, and personal relationships—and about sometimes falling short. He urges prospective grad students to carve out space for self-care, mental health, and social connection. Loneliness can be a reality, especially with night classes and busy schedules, but joining campus organizations and building relationships with peers and professors can make the journey less isolating.

Skills for Life, Not Just for a Job Description

Even though Scott ultimately found his career path outside of museums and history, he credits his graduate studies with teaching him valuable skills—like research, problem solving, and personal growth—that enhanced his qualifications and shaped his perspective. It’s a reminder that grad school is about much more than a degree.

Whether you’re just thinking about grad school or already on your way, this episode is packed with wisdom, encouragement, and practical advice. Tune in to “Victors in Grad School” to hear Scott’s full story and gather the fuel you need for your own journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to sit down, to talk to you, to work with you as you are going through this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school has to go through a journey for themselves.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: Whether you are at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about whether grad school is right for you, or you are applying right now, or maybe you've already applied and gotten accepted, There are many different places in this journey where you can do things to make the experience even easier. And then as you get into graduate school, there are things that you can do to be able to make yourself even more successful. That's what this podcast is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can share those experiences with you to allow for you an opportunity to be able to gain some tools for your own toolbox, but also allow for you to be able to prepare yourself a little bit better for the graduate school journey that you're on and that you will be on in the future. This week we've got another great guest. Scott Roy is with us today, and Scott works at the University of Michigan, Flint in the office of the Registrar. And Scott did his undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint, and then he went off and got a graduate degree in history at Eastern Michigan University. We're going to be talking about his own educational journey and allowing you to learn a little bit more from him.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: And I'm really excited to have him here. Scott, thanks so much for being here today.

Scott Roy [00:02:04]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:05]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to talk to you. I mentioned the fact that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey, going through your undergraduate work, you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to continue your education. Take me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head as you figured out for yourself that graduate school was the next step.

Scott Roy [00:02:35]: So I actually started my undergraduate degree not knowing what I wanted to do. I went into my Undergraduate thinking. I was going to go to law school. And then as I was choosing a major for my bachelor's degree, my advisor had recommended either English or history because he said a lot of law students chose those as their majors. So I went with history because that's the topic that I've always enjoyed. My family and I, we've always visited battlefields on vacation. We were Civil War reenactors. So history was just my thing.

Scott Roy [00:03:05]: So I selected history. And about maybe two years or so into my degree, I decided that I didn't really want to be a lawyer. And so I didn't know what I wanted to do. I did actually decide that I wanted to do something in the history field. So I went to grad school with the idea of either becoming a professor or doing something in museums. So when I got to be about a junior, I started looking at different schools. There were only four schools in the state of Michigan that had history programs at the graduate level. So I was between Central Michigan University and Eastern.

Scott Roy [00:03:40]: I ended up going down to Eastern. And then actually when I got to Eastern, I found out really that my niche was going into museums. So when I was at Eastern, my degree was in. But I also got a graduate certificate in Cultural Museum Studies. During that time, I was an intern down at the Historical Museum down in Monroe. And I got to do a lot of cool things down there. I got to lead tours, and I got to create different exhibits, do a lot of the curatorship at the museum there. And I realized that was kind of what I wanted to do with my life.

Scott Roy [00:04:13]: So I stayed through graduate school, went through, got my master's, spent a couple years actually after graduate school trying to find a job and in the history field. And so I started out, right out of grad school. I started working at apartments. I was actually a leasing consultant leasing apartments. I did end up getting a job in a museum for about four years up in Frankenmuth. There's a military museum that I was a curator at. And then eventually, once I kind of settled down and I started to have kids and have a family, decided that I needed a more stable job. That's one thing I found actually, in my field is that museum jobs aren't always very stable.

Scott Roy [00:04:51]: They depend on millages and grants and different fundraising. And so I decided at that point that I needed to find something more stable. That's how I ended up at U of M Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:00]: So, Scott, you mentioned the fact that you looked at a number of different schools when you were deciding on where you wanted to go to graduate school and you ultimately chose to go to Eastern Michigan University. Bring me back to that point. And when you were looking at different schools, what were you looking for and what made Eastern the right fit for you?

Scott Roy [00:05:19]: So, so I originally was planning on going to U of M Flint actually for grad school because that's where I had gone for my undergrad. But like I said before, there were only four schools in the state that had a history degree and I knew that's what I wanted to pursue. U of M, Ann Arbor was an option. I didn't really look a whole lot at that. Part of the reason was because that they required 100 page thesis. I realized that I didn't want to necessarily get my doctorate degree. And those thesis tracks were more for students that were pursuing a doctorate. Eastern and Central had options where rather than writing the thesis, you could take an exam.

Scott Roy [00:05:56]: And so I chose Eastern partly because you could take the exam, but also because my wife at the time, she was my girlfriend, but we ended up getting engaged. She got a job down in Metro Detroit. So if I was up at Central, I was going to be several hours away. Being down at Eastern, I could be closer to her. So that was an easy choice for me and I'm glad that I chose the route that I did. So Eastern, I ended up taking a four hour exam. They gave me a list of 40 books during my last semester and I had to go through and basically memorize the arguments made in these books. And then I had to do a four hour exam about a historiography on it.

Scott Roy [00:06:32]: So that's, that's why I chose Eastern was because I absolutely hate writing. The thought of writing 100 pages sounded nauseating to me. So I decided I wanted to do the four hour exam based on the books.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:43]: You know, everyone that makes a transition into graduate school has to go through, as I mentioned, a transition. There is a difference in the way that you're educated at the undergraduate level. And then when you get to the graduate level, you have to kind of figure that out for yourself. Talk to me about that transition for you. When you went from undergrad into grad school, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And then what did you have to do to maintain that success as you continued throughout your graduate school experience?

Scott Roy [00:07:19]: So one thing that I will definitely tell you is that graduate school is a totally different beast than undergraduate school. Undergraduate school, you might have an assignment where you have to write five or 10 page paper and you might have a couple weeks. When I went into graduate school, I might have a class on Tuesday and I was expected to read a four or five hundred page book by like Thursday and have a paper done on it. So I remember my first semester of graduate school. I was like a deer in the headlights. The amount of work was totally different than what I had expected and that took a lot of getting used to. And on top of that, most graduate students, myself included, you have jobs as well. So I was working at the museum in Monroe part time, about 30 hours a week.

Scott Roy [00:08:01]: So the workload itself was a lot more intense and that took some getting used to. The other things that I really had to adapt to was actually was loneliness. So being a grad student, I actually had an apartment on campus. It was just a studio apartment. I was by myself. I decided I didn't want to have a roommate because I wanted to be able to focus on studying. And looking back on that, I may have done that differently. One thing that I've found is a lot of graduate students, you don't see them on campus except for at night.

Scott Roy [00:08:31]: Most of them have day jobs. I had a lot of classes with teachers who were taking night classes. So you didn't necessarily build the friendships that I built as an undergraduate. A lot of the students who were in class, they came from work, they went to their class and then they went home because it was 9 o' clock at night. So you didn't necessarily have the camaraderie that you had as an undergraduate. So I struggled with that to an extent. The fact that sometimes it could be a little bit lonely being in a city an hour from home, not necessarily knowing a lot of people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:00]: On a personal level, sometimes students tell me that they face imposter syndrome as they go through graduate school. There's a feeling that they get into a program and they, they don't feel like they know everything that they should know or that they're prepared in the way that they need to be prepared. Did you ever feel that way? Did you ever feel and face that imposter syndrome or self doubt for yourself in graduate studies? And if so, how did you handle it?

Scott Roy [00:09:26]: I guess to an extent, I've always been a good student as an undergraduate, so I wasn't necessarily worried about not being successful. But again, like I said, the workload the first semester, I didn't know how I was going to get through it. But then you start to realize, hey, you know what, I can do this. And you start to communicate with other students. In your class and they're able to help guide you through things and give you advice on how to be successful. And I mean, if you ever have problems, talk to the instructors. That's one thing I've found is a lot of times the instructors are more than willing to reach out to you because they know that you're a good student. Typically, if you're in graduate school, you have what it takes to succeed.

Scott Roy [00:10:00]: Your professors know that you're a hard worker, otherwise you wouldn't be there. So I would say that if you ever have an issue to reach out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:06]: To them, every student has to find their path for themselves. They have to figure out for themselves how to balance all of the different hats that they wear, whether it's your academic hat, that hat that you wear when you're working. As you mentioned that you had that part time job that you were working down at the museum, you have your personal relationships, your friends, et cetera. So talk to me about balance and what did you have to do to be able to balance all of those competing needs of others and needs for yourself in regards to what you had signed up to do in graduate school? And how did you handle that for yourself? How did you balance that for yourself?

Scott Roy [00:10:48]: So actually one thing I wish I would have done better is learn a little bit more balance in graduate school. So I felt wore out by the end of it. I would get up sometimes, I had to be at work by 8:30 and where I worked was about almost an hour drive from the campus. So I had to get up pretty early to do that. And then I wouldn't get home sometimes till, you know, five or six o' clock and then I'd be doing homework. So it didn't come encompassed a lot of your life. I would make sure that I saw my girlfriend usually on the weekends. And then beyond that, one thing I wish I had done a better job of, so this is my advice to you, is make sure that you take the time to, I guess, take care of yourself, both mentally and physically.

Scott Roy [00:11:27]: One thing I found in grad school is I ended up gaining like 30 or 40 pounds by the time I was done with grad school. And a lot of it was on me. I just didn't have the drive anymore to make sure I got to the fitness center. It's very hard to do when you're working and you're studying and you've been at it all day to find the time to make sure that you go to the rec center and make sure that you do the exercises and stuff that you need. I wish I had spent more time doing that. But beyond that, I guess you just kind of struggle through it for a little bit and then you find yourself out on the other side in a couple of years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: I know the work that you're doing right now may not be in the museum field, it may not be in the history field, but you're doing great work here at the University of Michigan, Flint. And as you go through graduate school, it does change some of the ways that you think, process, consider things. How do you find that graduate school changed the way that you think or work or approach problems or life in general?

Scott Roy [00:12:23]: So even though I'm not in my field, a lot of the skills that I learned in graduate school are skills that I've been able to take with me into the workplace. A big one for me, I would say being a history major, I know how to research. I mean, if you give me a topic, I can usually find the answer. I know what resources to look into, and that's been very helpful in my day to day activities at the workplace. Beyond that, I do think having my master's degree actually helped me get my job. So even though my job is not in the history field, working on a college campus is pretty hard to get into. And I think the fact that I had a master's degree helped set me apart from other candidates and helped give me that interview. So even though I'm not working in my field, I do think that having the graduate degree was important.

Scott Roy [00:13:07]: And then it also, I guess, kind of helped me decide what things are important and my life. So, I mean, I could work in a museum. If I went and lived down in metro Detroit, I could get a job at the Henry Ford or somewhere down there. But I decided that, you know, I wanted to be close to my family. My family lives in the Genesee county area. This is where I've always been since I grew up. When I was a kid, I wanted my kids to know their grandparents and to know their family. So I think graduate school helped me mature in that aspect and kind of figure out what was important to me in life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: So as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school for themselves, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Scott Roy [00:13:52]: First off, be prepared for the increase in the workload. I would say, to make sure that you have a good support system. Make sure that you take time to be involved in activities on campus. There were a couple of clubs that I joined just so that I got to know some people. I would recommend that just finding different ways to be involved so that you do have a good graduate experience and do get to know other people on the campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:14]: Well Scott, I just want to say thanks. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your journey and I truly wish you all the best.

Scott Roy [00:14:21]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:22]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umich.edu.

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Are you considering graduate school, currently enrolled, or maybe just accepted? No matter where you are in your academic journey, the transition into graduate studies is filled with both challenges and opportunities. That’s the theme at the heart of this week’s episode of “Victors in Grad School,” where Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Julie Snyder, the Associate Vice Chancellor and Dean of Students at the University of Michigan, Flint, to unpack her path from bachelor’s to master’s to earning a PhD.

Changing Directions and Embracing New Opportunities

Dr. Snyder’s story is a powerful reminder that it’s okay to change direction. Originally planning to attend law school, she found herself drawn to the world of student affairs thanks to a mentor’s guidance—even at the last minute. Her advice for those making similar choices is simple and clear: don’t get boxed in by traditional timelines or expectations. Sometimes, taking the road less traveled leads to the most fulfilling outcomes.

Transition and Mindset Shifts in Graduate School

One of the main themes discussed is the significant mindset shift required in graduate studies. The workload becomes more rigorous and independent. Impostor syndrome is real, especially when it feels like you’re surrounded by “geniuses”—but, as Dr. Snyder notes, hard work, not innate brilliance, is the ultimate key to success. She emphasizes acknowledging your struggles and leaning on your peers, admitting you can’t (and shouldn’t) do it all alone.

The Power of Mentorship and Peer Support

Mentorship and support systems are fundamental. Dr. Snyder credits mentors with helping her identify opportunities—including her eventual career pivot—and prioritize demands when all tasks seem equally urgent. She also stresses the importance of relying on your peers, sharing resources, and working together, especially when preparing for comprehensive exams or tackling difficult coursework.

Balancing Life, Work, and Academics

Dr. Snyder also addresses the balancing act required in grad school: managing coursework, work obligations, family, friends, and personal well-being. It’s not easy, but she assures listeners it’s possible by knowing your priorities, using time management strategies, and, crucially, not losing sight of what you love outside of academics.

Final Thoughts

If you’re seeking inspiration and practical advice for your graduate journey, this episode is packed with candid stories and actionable insights. Dr. Snyder’s honesty about the ups and downs, her encouragement to pursue opportunities, and her message that “it is all doable” make this a must-listen for any current or aspiring grad student.

Ready for more wisdom, support, and real talk about surviving and thriving in grad school? Be sure to tune in to this episode of “Victors in Grad School,” and join the ongoing conversation about success, support, and self-discovery in graduate education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey. As you are considering graduate school, you're looking at graduate school. Maybe you've applied and you're and gotten accepted. Maybe you're getting ready to start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:30]: No matter where you are, you are truly on a journey. Because no matter if you are at the very beginning just starting to think about it, you're in graduate school or maybe you see that light at the end of the tunnel, there are things that you can do all the way through this journey to be able to prepare yourself and to help yourself be more successful in the journey itself. That's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to talk with you, to work with you as you are going through this journey, to be able to provide you with some, I'm going to call them, tools for your toolbox to help you to think about things in a little bit different way. We do that by introducing you to people that have gone before you. They've gone to graduate school, they've been successful, and they have had the opportunity to be able to learn some things along the way. Maybe positive, maybe negative, you never know. But we.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:16]: But today we got another great guest. Dr. Julie Snyder is with with us today. And Dr. Snyder is the Associate Vice Chancellor and Dean of Students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And Julie has three different degrees. So we're going to be talking about the journey that she went on from getting that bachelor's degree to that master's, that doctorate, and kind of learning along the way. So I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Julie, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:01:41]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor just to have the opportunity to share life experiences with graduate students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:47]: Well, I'm really excited to be able to talk to you as well. And I guess first and foremost, what I'd love to do is be able to go back in time because I know that you did your bachelor's degree at Duquesne University, and during that experience, I'm guessing based on the fact that you got a bachelor's in political science and then knowing what you got your master's degree in, I'm guessing you got a little involved in that undergraduate experience and you made A choice to go on and get a master's degree in student affairs and higher education. And I guess. Take me back to that point. Go back in time. Take me back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself that the next step for you was graduate school. What was going through your head and what made you choose that graduate school was that next step?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:02:32]: Well, I actually went to Duquesne with the intention of pursuing a professional degree. It was. I wanted to go to law school. And so that next step was always in. In my mindset. And Duquesne ran a program where you could start law school in your senior year of your undergraduate degree. And so I was also. I grew up in the Detroit area, so I picked a campus that was far from home in its location in Pittsburgh.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:02:57]: And so while I was there as a student, I took a. At a law firm while getting involved on campus. And it was very late in my senior year, and it was the night before the lsat, and I was at an event, so I was involved in campus activities, and I was at an event and just really struggling with this idea that I didn't want to go to law school, that it didn't. Practicing the law didn't have the impact, I guess, that I wanted to have when I originally thought about it. And so I was sitting with a mentor, which is a key piece in this. In the process of pursuing graduate work, a mentor who said, do you know you could do this career path and stay within higher education and pursue the master's degree? And I had no idea. And so that was the start of the process. It was my senior year, and I was behind schedule on timelines, but I refused to take a gap year.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:03:52]: And so in that journey, I stumbled into a graduate program that accepted me late out in Pennsylvania, Indiana University of Pennsylvania. And that's how I ended up enrolled there, which was a. I believe everything happens for a reason. And it was a fantastic campus and a fantastic opportunity for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:09]: You know, I think it's important to. To hear what you just said, because sometimes people feel that they are bound into the. The regular norms of applying, of being considered, and if you're outside of that, that there are no options. And what I just heard you say was, no, that is not the case. You know, you can think about things that are outside the norm. To be honest, I did the same thing. I graduated in December of a year, went to a similar program to what you did, but the traditional model at that time for us was a fall start. So there were very few options or very few programs that were willing to take in those students mid year.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:52]: So I guess what I'm saying to you as you are considering graduate school is that don't let the traditional model always constrain you to what you consider when you're thinking about graduate school, because there may be other options for you and it may take you down a little bit of a different path, but still get you to the same point at the end.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:05:13]: Absolutely.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:14]: Now I know that you got through that program and you made that transition. And I guess before we talk about your doctorate, because I know you went to the doctorate. Further down the road is every student, every student, as they are considering graduate school and moving into a graduate school, there is a transition that you go through. Just like when you go from high school into undergrad, you know, you have to learn what it means to be a college student when you go to graduate school. Again, it is a very different type of way of learning. It's a different. There's different expectations, there's different ways of being taught. So talk to me about that transition for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: And what did you have to do as you transitioned into graduate school and what did you have to do as you went through graduate school to find success throughout the entire journey?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:06:00]: There's absolutely transition. And I can definitely talk about my own experience. I can also say as a supervisor of hundreds of graduate students, that it is real and it is legitimate. And I always told them to wait till October because that's when the transition really hits you. If you start your graduate program in August, October is when you're like, okay, I really now feel the crunch. And there is an elevated degree of expectation academically. And so the workload is more rigorous, more intense, and far more independent even than the undergraduate level. Then there, I think, is the idea that if you are pursuing the graduate degree, while you may have a graduate assistantship, a teaching assistantship, it's a level of preparation and execution.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:06:47]: So you might have a 20 hour a week position, but in order to properly prepare to execute in those 20 hours, it has that additional time constraint. And so time becomes even more, more precious at the graduate level. And the one piece to remember is that your peers are having the same struggles, they are having the same struggles and to really utilize one another to help divide and conquer. And so when we studied for our comprehensive exams, everybody took a major course and, and created the study guide and we shared those mutually, you know, because there isn't enough time to do everything alone. And so having the humility to recognize I can't do this alone. And being comfortable with that and, and really leaning in to find good support networks with your classmates, your cohort, however your program may be structured.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:35]: Again, I love what you just said there because I think that sometimes there's this thought of I have to do it alone and I can't ask for help and I need to prove that I belong here. And that's not the case. Especially in a cohort based program. If you're working along and you hit those comps, if you're hitting them at the same time, which sometimes in a cohort program you do, there's no reason why you cannot all work together to try to lift each other up because all of you want to be successful, all of you want to get to that end point and you want to support each other along the way. So you talk about some of those transitions for yourself. And I guess as you think back to your own graduate experience, what mindset shifts did you have to make to be able to be successful in graduate school?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:08:23]: I had to acknowledge, and this is probably filtered many years later in my language choice is in world. I think there are very few people who are really geniuses, but all of us have ability and academic ability and can be successful and do well academically. And so what the mind shift was about the work ethic and just recognizing that it would be hard work at different points in time and working hard through that and not allowing that struggle. Because sometimes working hard is a struggle to be an indicator of my ability or my self worth. I am not a genius, but I can work hard and I did well academically. And so for graduate students to remember, as you're struggling, it's not because you can't do it. It's because it requires that level of effort to do it well. And I think that's what everyone inherently wants to do, is to do well.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:09:17]: And those are transitions again, back to high school. The people who didn't have to study in high school or didn't have to do much effort in their undergraduate degree, that'll be a transition. And just keep at the forefront that you are capable of doing this and you just have to work hard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:35]: And graduate school is not always easy. You know it's going to challenge you, it will make you question yourself. And many times students will feel a sense of imposter syndrome that they may not they, especially at the beginning part, but sometimes throughout it. Julie, did you feel that imposter syndrome yourself or did you have a feeling of self doubt through your graduate Studies. And how did you handle it?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:09:58]: Absolutely. And I would say they were probably more significant in my PhD program, but they existed in both degrees because what the master's level, you're coming into a content area that you, that you don't know anything about. Like, my master's degree is so unrelated to my major that you're coming into it. And so you, you question if you have the ability to, to do the work as you're coming through the coursework and as you're learning the practical components through the assistantship, but it's again, acknowledging how you're feeling and not isolating that and remembering that there are others that are feeling that way. So again, leaning into that support network and establishing good networking, finding a good mentor who can help you talk through those feelings of I don't understand why this is the way that it is, or I don't think I can do this, or I'm really struggling here, you know, someone who can be that sounding board. And I do really, really want to emphasize that mentoring relationship because it's that perspective of helping you prioritize. You're going to, everything's important in grad school, and it all is, but it all is at different points in time, and the mentor can help you prioritize so that you're not completely overwhelmed. And again, feeling like an imposter, like, there's no way I can keep up with this, and I'm just making it up as I go along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]: I know you just mentioned the PhD and I want to talk to you a little bit about that because I know that after you got your master's degree, you went off, you worked for a bit, and at some point in those about eight years of working, you made a decision, just like you did at the undergraduate level, to take that next step. And at that time, you were working at Bowling Green State University, and you chose to go into a PhD program at bowling Green State University. But take me back to that point. What made you decide to kind of shake it up and go back to school while you were working and working toward that PhD?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:11:56]: So step one, I think, was taking the second to do that poor soul searching of what do I want out of my career? And so I'd been working in a functional area in resident residence life in housing. By happenstance, that wasn't even my background in my undergraduate level. It was just my first graduate assistantship. And it led into my career, but I knew I didn't want to stay there. I didn't want to stay in that area. And so in examining the pathways, the career pathways, and in talking with mentors, and I'd reached a critical point in my career, the number of years that I needed to make a decision, either a pivot to a different area or to pursue the degree, to broaden my skill set and to look at it. So that was step one is just really pointing your career where you have to think about what's next. I'm not one to be able to plan out the next five years, but it's important to think broader, like what is the end goal or what are the things that I want to be able to achieve in my career, and then finding the timing of when that feels appropriate.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:12:58]: And I'd reached a point in my position where I was bored. And I don't say that meaning I didn't have enough work to do. But there is a level of repetitiveness as you do this work, because everything cycles through the academic year. And so the timing was right. I was ready to learn more, move on, and really think about my career and professional development in a broader scale.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: And I know I mentioned that you did choose to go to Bowling Green State University. There are a lot of different PhD programs that are out there in the country. What made you decide to stay where you were working and doing that degree at the same institution?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:13:37]: I was in intimidated from even before I applied. Like, I was prodded to apply by faculty, and retaking the GRE was a stumbling block for me. I think I postponed applying to the PhD program for a number of years. And so I already had a faculty mentoring relationship before I started the program. And that was important to me. I also knew that I wanted to pursue the PhD full time and really delve into being a student. I didn't want to work full time and take it part time. And that's what I needed for me.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:14:12]: And it was one less transition. So the program had a good reputation. Could I have gone to a program with a better reputation? Absolutely. But it would have added a level of transition for me that would have created more anxiety because I was already kind of anxious about again, can I do this? Do I have the ability to do this? And so that's why I chose not to have to also transition into a new community, into a campus, and feel comfortable. All of that was already there for me by staying on my campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Now, just like in the master's degree, there's another transition into the doctorate. Talk to me about that transition and you know, the good, the bad, the ugly in regard to what you had to Learn to be able to make sure that you were be getting past that, I'm going to say imposter syndrome, or that feeling of not being ready for it, to getting into the groove and being able to get through the program and be successful in that.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:15:08]: So we had a first semester course in our PhD program which really focuses on the philosophy of education and the foundations of education. And it was that faculty member who flat out said to us, my job is to break down the way that you think and teach you to think like a PhD. And that was the biggest transition, is to really transform the thought process, to not settle with what is, but to continually ask why. To always be in search of a level of truth that is research based, that is that exists through demonstrated findings and whether qualitative or quantitative. And really a level of critical thinking that far surpassed what I'd been asked to do before. I think a master's degree really prepares you to do the work and the PhD prepares you to ask why are we doing it? What are we doing? What should we be doing differently? And really get into that critical element. Again, the degree is, you know, a doctorate of philosophy. So it's the philosophy behind what we do and why we do it.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:16:10]: That was tough. That was very tough because those courses would challenge every, as you learned to write, they would challenge every assumption you made in writing and really push back and really get you to transition to being that critical thinker. And again, the key in this group were the upper class PhD students who very much could, could, could help you understand it and pick apart because each, each faculty different style. Not all of them made you feel great about who you were and not internalizing that and recognizing that that's part of the process. That's not about me, but about helping me to really push through and grow and develop in my thinking.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:51]: Every person wears hats. There's a lot of things you have to balance as you're going through graduate school, whether it's at the master's, the doctorate level. And that could be balancing school, work, family, friends, responsibilities, etc. Talk to me about what you had to do to be able to balance all of that for yourself as you were going through those different experiences.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:17:14]: I think there's a lot of little things. After working for eight years before I pursued the PhD, there's a rhythm of going to work. And not all of my courses were in that normal time frame, but treating my coursework as work and scheduling for it, right? So some traditional, like good time management skills building in appropriate times for me it was recognizing my windows of productivity, when was I most productive doing certain types of things, whether it was intense reading, writing and then structuring things accordingly. So for me, I'm an early morning writer. It took me the first semester to figure that out. And so rebuilding everything and making sure that I had opportunity to do that. I also realized that I'm a writer in my head before I sit anywhere and as I'm digesting research. And so I literally bought a pad of paper for my car that stuck to the dashboard because I'd have a thought while driving or I would do audio.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:18:11]: Back then we didn't have cell phones that recorded you, but I had one of those ones that you carry around that I needed for research course. And if I had a thought or I'd be walking to class, you know, I was notorious for putting a paper together by post it note I used to say, and so recognizing when are those things happening and don't lose those to find methods to take advantage of it and understanding your learning style. And then there were times there sacrifices. My family lived two hours away, my in laws lived three hours away. And there were times when I had to say no and I had to miss whatever it might be. But there were also times that you had to plan ahead because it was a priority to be with those people or at that event or whatever it might be. And so I really think managing it all is about prioritization and you know, taking your time management skills that you've learned over the course of the undergraduate or the master's degree and really enhancing them. And it's all doable.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:19:06]: There's ton of us out there as sitting proof it is all doable. So anyone who thinks it's not it is doable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:12]: You mentioned mentors and I think one of the things that happens in going through a master's degree, a doctorate degree is you do build mentorships. You build relationships, people that are within your program or around the program, administrators at the institution, whatever it may be. Talk to me about those relationships that you were able to build and what did you have to do to build those? Because sometimes I know that for some students it's a little intimidating to try to build those professional and non professional types of relationships that truly help you as you go through those type of programs.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:19:53]: I think it starts with not saying no to opportunities, especially if you're in the graduate degree. If you have an opportunity to travel to a conference, then do it because you're exposing yourself to others in your field and step One to creating mentoring relationships. When you've identified someone who just personally resonates with your values and how they do their work is something that you admire. To me, that's. That's recognizing that you want to learn from that person. For those people who are in close proximity to me, it started really just informally with, can I take you to lunch? Could we grab a cup of coffee? And grew naturally through those experiences. And I was never the person who formally said, will you please be my mentor? I know that some of the literature talks about asking people that. Those relationships just naturally formed, and those people were always open to a mutual dialogue about helping, you know, me navigate what's going on in my.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:20:57]: In my career and serving in that mentoring relationship. Also, though, I think the cross between networking and mentoring, because as you identify people in your network that are outside of where you are, those are critical because they can help you see circumstances from an external perspective. So if all of my mentors were just on my campus, they can't necessarily see the worldview in a way that's different because we're all looking at our campus together. And so finding a mentor outside of that was really important so that it could help me learn and grow in a broader context of my profession, which was just broader than my own experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:36]: Now, I know you got through your graduate degrees, you got through the master's, you got through the doctorate, you finished up, you were successful. And I know that you've worked with a number of different graduate students throughout your career as well. As you think back to your own graduate experience, you think about the relationships and the conversations that you've had with other graduate students along the way. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:22:00]: Understand your motives, motive, and don't let that fall away or forget about that. So if you are doing this because you want to advance your career, keep that as a good focal point. If you're doing this because it's something you've always dreamed of, keep that as a focal point. So really, just understanding at the core of who you are, why you're doing this, because there'll be days when you're like, I don't want to do this anymore, and I'm exhausted. And so really keeping that intention and that motivation, motive central. Don't be afraid for the new opportunities. I think I said that earlier. Whatever opportunity that might unfold in graduate school may lead to a different path because you're being exposed to all the things that you didn't know existed.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:22:44]: So just being opened to those opportunities and being willing to say yes. And sometimes that can be stressful because it may take away time or may take away your chance to do some of the. Some of the academic pieces. Right. It's going to compromise time. But what you'll learn from that I think is really important. We've talked about finding support systems, we've talked about finding mentors, which are really critical components. I think the only other piece is just don't lose sight of what you love and what makes you who you are and stay true to that.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:23:17]: So if you have a hobby that you love, build that in to life. Don't give that up. So if you're a person that loves to work out or to hike or bike or scrapbook or play video games, whatever it is, don't lose that because it's a good way for you to stay grounded in who you are.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:37]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I truly, truly appreciate it and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Julie Snyder [00:23:45]: Take care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:46]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:09]: Thanks again for spending time with me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:11]: As you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umich.edu.

View Details

Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be daunting, invigorating, and transformative all at once. On a recent episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast, hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, listeners were treated to an inspiring and candid conversation with Antonio Riggs, Associate Director of Student Career Advancement and Success at the University of Michigan-Flint. Antonio pulled back the curtain on his own educational journey, offering insights that resonate with anyone considering – or currently undertaking – graduate studies.

It’s a Journey, Not a Sprint

One of the key themes Antonio shares is that graduate education is a deeply personal and winding journey. Each student’s path is unique, shaped by individual aspirations, challenges, and life circumstances. Antonio himself returned to graduate school after working professionally, motivated by seeing mentors advance in their fields through further education. He emphasizes the importance of setting milestones, staying adaptable, and recognizing that detours and delays are a natural part of the process. Sometimes, reaching your goals will take longer than anticipated, and that’s perfectly okay.

Mindset Shifts and Overcoming Imposter Syndrome

Graduate-level learning demands a shift in mindset. Antonio candidly discusses the challenge of managing new expectations, particularly the leap from undergraduate to graduate research and academic rigor. He opens up about his own experiences grappling with imposter syndrome and self-doubt, reassuring listeners that these feelings are common. Antonio’s advice? Communication is key. Leaning on faculty, advisors, and your support system can make all the difference.

Balancing Act: Life, Work, and Study

A recurring message is the challenge of balancing academics, professional responsibilities, and personal life. Antonio shares practical strategies—from effective time management to building a strong support network. Whether it’s relying on family, collaborating with a partner, or carving out personal time for stress relief, his stories illustrate that success is built on both determination and the willingness to ask for help.

Practical Skills and Lifelong Networking

Throughout the episode, Antonio highlights the invaluable practical skills he developed in graduate school, particularly the power of networking, strong communication, and the ability to apply research and best practices in real-world settings. These aren’t just academic skills—they’re lifelong assets that have continued to serve him professionally and personally.

Ready to Be Inspired?

If you’re contemplating graduate school, already in the trenches, or guiding students in higher education, this episode is packed with wisdom, relatability, and encouragement. Tune in to hear Antonio Riggs’ full story and walk away with practical advice for finding your stride and building your own “toolbox” for success.

Listen to the full episode and start your own journey with insight and support!

Ready to explore more? Visit the University of Michigan-Flint’s graduate program offerings and tune in to Victors in Grad School for more inspiring stories and tips.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity every week to be able to talk through things, issues, concerns that you may have, and to be able to help you to be able to develop some tools for your toolbox, find some new tools for your toolbox, and identify ways in which you can be successful in this journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every individual that is thinking about graduate school, that's applied to graduate school, that maybe is in graduate school, are going through their own individual journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: You may have similar things happen to you or alongside with other students in your cohort or in your classes together, but you're going to be dealing with them in the way that works for you. And what my goal is, is every week is to be able to provide you with some new resources, some new things that may allow for you to be able to find more success and more success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that help have gone to graduate school before you and have learned some things along the way. Some of the things might be positive, some of the things might be negative. You never know. But I have an opportunity to be able to learn from them and from what they learned so that you will have an easier time down the road as well. So this week we got another great guest. Antonio Riggs is with us.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Antonio is the Associate Director of Student Career Advancement and Success at the University of Michigan Flint. And he's been at the University of Michigan flint for over 11 years now. But he's also had a wealth of other opportunities along the way that he has done, working with students and helping students in many different ways. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to him about his own educational journey to help you in yours. Antonio, thanks so much for being here today.

Antonio Riggs [00:02:17]: Hey, thank you for having me. Greatly appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: It is completely my pleasure. Really enjoy being able to talk to people about their own experiences. And I'm really excited to learn a little bit more about yours. And I know that you did all three of your degrees at Saginaw Valley State University, but you did your bachelor's degree in business administration. And then you went off, you worked for a little bit, but at some point, at some point in that time between graduation and about four years later, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue on and work toward a graduate degree. Bring me back to that point where you made that decision for yourself. What made you decide that? And why was it the right time to go to graduate school?

Antonio Riggs [00:03:06]: I guess during the time I graduated and I went to work at another institution, and a couple of my mentors were, they've completed their degrees, their MSAs, Master of Arts and Sciences degrees in Student affairs administration. And when you're around people that are in positions that you aspire to be in, through the process of networking, you learn about the different career paths, you learn about the degree programs, and people share their insights. And I kind of had a set to say, hey, I wanted to get a master's degree in the beginning, I wanted to go business all the way up, right? Get a business degree, get an MBA and then get a PhD in business and teach us some core university teaching, you know, business classes. But then I didn't go that route. I really stayed in student affairs. I enjoyed it. And I had lifelong friends that I've met in the student affairs arena. And so I kind of was like, hey, this is my passion.

Antonio Riggs [00:04:01]: That's where I want to be. And so I was already a student at Saginaw Valley. I knew the program, I knew the buildings under the layout. So it was what, familiar territory for me. And so I saw that they had kicked off a Master of Arts and Sciences with certificate in Student Affairs Administration. And so that's what led me into that role.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:22]: Before I leave this educational journey that you were on, one question that I have is, I know that after you finished that program, you again, you went, you worked for a few more years working at a couple of other institutions, and then at some point, you decided to go back to school to get an education specialist degree. Talk to me about that. Why an education specialist?

Antonio Riggs [00:04:46]: I am a person that like to set goals, and in my goal setting, I like to see my milestones. And so some people will say, yeah, just go jump in a PhD program and, you know, knock out the four to five years and get it over with. But for me, Saginaw Valley, you know, kicked off that MSA program, and I think it was a feeder going into EDD programs, right? The Doctorate of Education programs. And so I think they collaborated with Central, where, hey, you get your specialist from Saginaw Valley, you Can go right to Central Michigan, no issues. Every credit will transfer, and you can knock out the educational doctorate. And so that's kind of where I was at with that mindset of, boom, I do this, I see my milestone, knocked it out in two years and then move forward and go and finish that and educational doctorate degree. And so it's still a process. Things come up and you kind of life takes its bends and turns, but as long as you kind of stay focused on the prize and you complete it, I think you'll still be fine.

Antonio Riggs [00:05:54]: And so my original goal was to complete my doctoral degree by 33. And so as life, you know, moved on, I'm 10 years past the deadline now, right. But I still keep it in my forefront. I always go back, look at the different programs. I'm always researching other schools to go to, which one has the best route for me. So it's still in the forefront, and I do plan to complete. But hey, there's no time, there's no exact end date that we have when life begins to life, as the young folks say, right?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:27]: Definitely. Now, you talked about mindset, and I think as you go into different types of degrees, different types of education, you definitely have to have a mindset shift because you're educated in one way as a undergraduate student. And then as you transition in, you have to make some shifts for yourself. What type of mindset shifts did you find yourself having to make to succeed in graduate school?

Antonio Riggs [00:06:55]: Managing time effectively. So thinking about my undergrad experience versus the grad experience, I was more heavily involved as a student at the undergraduate level, right. So fraternity member, resident assistant, work study student. And so you always found ways to get involved on campus, but then as you begin to work and then go back to school, you don't have that time to commit to some of the experiences that you did as an undergraduate student. And so managing my time effectively, still staying engaged on a campus level because I was a leader within my fraternity on campus, I was obligated to do mentorship programs, advise the undergraduate chapter, so still stayed in touch there. But I would reduce my level of commitment to that organization while I was on campus. And then, you know, my number one priority is to still put food on the table. So I had to work the 8 to 5 and to make some sacrifices.

Antonio Riggs [00:07:55]: Right. So I commuted, and so I just couldn't run home and grab a bite to eat. So most of my experiences during my grad program was to get out of work, grab a bite to eat, sleep in the hallway, and then go to Class. And so I remember as an undergrad, I said, you know, I will never be that person sleeping, you know, in the hallway. And then as a grad student, you know, when you make some of those sacrifices, you find yourself sleeping in the hallway just to get a nap because your class is from 6 to 10pm and then now you have to commute 45 minutes to an hour home at night. So managing time, effectively, prioritizing work, academic processes, and that's kind of where I had to streamline all that stuff and cut out on all the extracurricular activities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:42]: I talked to a lot of graduate students and as they're starting graduate school, sometimes they feel like they don't belong. They feel kind of like an imposter per se. Did you ever feel that imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies, whether it was at the master's or the specialist level? And how did you handle it?

Antonio Riggs [00:09:03]:

Yes, I think when I hit that imposter syndrome within the program you would identify either a couple staff members or one or two faculty members that will be there to support you and making sure you communicate your thoughts to your advisor. So for me, my advisor was a faculty member in my program. So it was like a double whammy, right? So I would go talk to the faculty member about academic concerns and then the conversation would evolve into this is how I'm feeling is this program for me, especially when it got to that research process because I don't think the undergraduate experience prepared you for the level of research in that master's program that you would go into. And so that's where my self doubt came into play because I loved my graduate programs. To me, I think they were easier than the undergraduate experience, right? Because it's kind of like you read how do you put things together? And it was more of a articulating what you're learning and you're writing it in a paper versus the test and all of the essays you had to write at the undergraduate level, master's level, everything compounded into an end result. And so I kind of like that piece of it. But the research, I wasn't the best at the formulas. And so making sure I communicate with the faculty, my advisor, they would give me good advice.

Antonio Riggs [00:10:29]:

Dr. Clark is awesome. She helped me out a lot in that process, keeping me motivated, telling me, you know, things that I can do to stay in the game. So that communication piece, when you, when I felt like I wasn't going to make it and it just got hard, just gotta talk to people and Then once you tell people your mindset, where you're at, some people will come up with resources for you because the professors and staff, they want you to succeed. They don't want anybody to drop out. They don't want anybody to stop out. Basically, if you do, that's kind of like the choice you've made on your own. But I think the faculty and staff across any institution that you decide to go to will be there to support you in any way, shape or form, or within reason.

Antonio Riggs [00:11:13]: You just got to communicate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:14]: So, as I mentioned, I know that there are transitions that happen going from undergrad to a master's degree to a specialist degree. At each of those points, there's different transitions, different expectations, different faculty, different perspectives, et cetera. As you transitioned out of your undergraduate work, out of your professional work, into your first master's degree, then to your specialist degree, you found success in those journeys. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into each of those degrees, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Antonio Riggs [00:11:55]: Be present, take an active role in my educational journey and not just let the advisor pick the courses for me. So because I worked in higher education and I was doing a Student Affairs Administration program, the things that I was doing at work transferred into my academic program. And things that I learned in my program, I was able to see it come full swing at work. And so tailoring to set myself up as I implemented new programs as Director of Residence Life, I kind of leveraged those experiences within my academic journey to do some benchmarking, to do some research, to write my papers on what I was experiencing in the workplace. So I was able to tie my academic and my professionalism together to make it more exciting, right? Because I wasn't just reading and writing papers. I was actually doing the work academically, the research piece, and then I would come to work and put it into play. And with both of those programs, they were practicum experiences where. Which is basically like an internship at the graduate level that I had to participate in.

Antonio Riggs [00:13:03]: And so that kind of further gave me that I was applying what I was learning academically into the work setting. And so I think that's what allowed me to be successful, is working in the field that I wanted to get a degree in. And it all played out. It came together well for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:22]: Now, you were working full time, you were going to school, you had other commitments and things that you were dealing with. Talk to me about balance, because I know that sometimes Balance goes out the window when you make the decision to go to graduate school. But how did you find balance in being able to be successful in school? Work, family, other personal responsibilities? Work while you were going through those graduate degrees?

Antonio Riggs [00:13:50]: Yeah, so when I first completed my master's, I was single, had nothing to do but go to school. Right. I didn't want idle hands, right, because you get distracted when your hands become idle. So I was always staying active, whether if it was at work, you know, you go to work. And then I, you know, came home and I was studying. As I said, I was a part of a couple of different organizations that took up my time as well. And so the balance there was still important, too, because you would get caught up into, you know, the leisure activities of just life. Because I was in school, anytime I got some free time, I went to hang out with some friends.

Antonio Riggs [00:14:28]: But everybody needs those stress relievers, right? So I don't want to say, hey, you can't go and engage with friends and others, because that's the balance, right? Making sure you're performing well academically, making sure you're performing well professionally, but still finding time to release. Because grad school is stressful, right? It's a heavy time commitment. You want to do great, you want to meet those deadlines, but still finding time for yourself. Whether if that's just going to a social outing with some friends, some people will, you know, take a weekend getaway to a cabin. I like to fish. I go out and put my feet in the grass and ground or whatever you want to call it, right? To be one with nature so you can relieve that level of stress from the everyday work in grad school. So having that balance of social learning, I think is important. And then when I went and finished my specialist, that's when I was like, hey, let's take it to the next level.

Antonio Riggs [00:15:23]: And so me and my wife, we pretty much did this whole tag team with the family. She did third shift. I was first shift. So there was always somebody at home. And she was in school completing her degree as well. So it was kind of like, hey, we're studying together. Everything we did, it was like, all right, let's cook dinner. Boom, we're doing it together.

Antonio Riggs [00:15:40]: All right, time to study. Let's study. All right. Hey, I have this test. Can you take care of the kids while I do this? Yes, I'll do that. So having a partner, I think, is important, too. That can give you balance, right? When it comes to your journey, professional, academic, somebody to kind of help you along the way, whether if it's household items, somebody to bounce ideas off of, even though they may not understand what you're talking about in grad school, but at least you're able to voice your thought processes. And sometimes just having somebody to sit there and listen can help you sort some of the ideas or things that is going in your head and then you can problem solve accordingly because you voiced it and you heard yourself say some things out loud.

Antonio Riggs [00:16:20]: So I guess having a village, so to speak, I leveraged my parents during my grad school journey, so they were big supporters and hey, you know, I'll keep the kid. Go ahead and do what you got to do for school. And then when school was done, I would go and get my kid. So especially in the early stages of that specialist program, because I was recently married and I married into a family and having that village to be there, my decisions, family wise, academic wise. And so I think my parents had understood the assignment and so they supported me along my way. And so having that support system gives you balance and also it gives you a chance to escape, to do some of that social stuff too, and then come back to reality of work and academics.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:02]: Now, if you could go back to the beginning to when you were in those degrees, what would you do differently?

Antonio Riggs [00:17:08]: I can't say I would do anything differently. In my opinion, I did it all right. I got my degrees, I passed. It was a great experience. I met some cool people. I networked along the way. I got some references. I still have friends out of those academic programs that I was in.

Antonio Riggs [00:17:24]: Would I have liked to have went off and did a program in a different state? Sometimes it crosses my mind, but I think where I am at now, I'm fine with my decisions I've made to get my degree, to work at all these great institutions that I've worked at. And I'm here today and I still enjoy what I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:47]: And that's definitely what it's all about. It's finding that right fit and being able to find something that you're passionate about, that you enjoy every day, because that's what's going to get you up in the morning and what's going to get you through the day and make you want to show back up the next day. So that's always a good thing. As you think about your graduate school experience, what specific skills do you feel like you developed during graduate school that you find yourself drawing from even today?

Antonio Riggs [00:18:14]: I'm always networking, being able to step outside of my comfort zone and engage with People that either emphasizes that I aspire to be in or learning about what other people are doing to help me understand the different paths I can grow into. So that networking piece, communication is always one of those things that I think in any grad program, you'll be required to work with people of diverse talent. So being open to learn about other people, being open to be vulnerable in some scenarios. Because if we graduate and we say, hey, we know it all, and going back to that imposter syndrome, sometimes as males and being a minority, it's hard to say, I really don't know or I can't do it, right? Because you're still faced with past traumas of being labeled. So you want to say, hey, I know it all, I can do it. But just being transparent, saying, hey, I don't have the capacity or I don't understand asking for that level of help, right? So being transparent, communicating is one. And then other skills that I've acquired throughout that program is that level of research, reading to understand best practices, looking at other places that may have similar programs as you as far as your work environment, and not plagiarizing, but understanding what they're doing and how you can either copy what they're doing to implement a program at your job and or take their program and move it to the next step. And that's one thing that I learned in that program.

Antonio Riggs [00:19:55]: Research isn't about just if you decide to go research, but like when you're looking at programs and you're doing, you know, benchmarking things, it's not about just kind of saying, hey, I have to invent something new. It's looking at what's already out there and how can you tweak it just a little bit to. And make it unique towards your goals or your obligations and moving forward within that program or your level of study. So that's kind of some of the skills that I've learned is leverage what's already out there. How can you make change? How can you improve something for the better of your environment or your work scenario and kind of move forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:31]: As you think back to grad school and you think back to the experiences that you've had both at the master's and the specialist level, as you look back at that, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate school, whether it be in education and business or whatever degree that would help them find success sooner?

Antonio Riggs [00:20:49]: Explore your passion as a career person. I'm always saying, hey, take a career assessment, research opportunities that you want to do and then sit down and ask yourself, 10 years from now I want to do this. So think about that 10 year vision for yourself and get an understanding of how that program can help you get to that 10 year vision. So always think ahead, research the different programs and try to figure out what are you going to learn, what additional skills you're going to acquire to help you fulfill the role that you're trying to go into 10 years from now. And be patient because just because you get the degree, nobody's going to come and knock on the door. And so while you're in your programs, make sure you network, make sure you understand all of the possibilities that you could possibly get into after that degree is completed. And then continue to add bricks to your foundation so you can meet those bare minimum qualifications that an employer is looking for or that you can do to set yourself up to meet that 10 year goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:59]: Well, Antonio, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of your own journey today, for sharing these tips, these hints, these things that you learned along the way, and I truly wish you all the best.

Antonio Riggs [00:22:11]: Hey, thank you. Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:13]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school isn’t just another chapter in your academic story—it’s a transformative journey that shapes your personal and professional life. In the latest episode of "Victors in Grad School," Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Ervin Leavy, Assistant Director of Facility Operations and Risk Management at the University of Michigan–Flint, to explore what it means to pursue graduate education as a working professional.

Ervin’s path is both relatable and inspiring. After earning his undergraduate degree in 1991, he began working in higher education, but realized years later that to truly thrive—especially as an adjunct lecturer—he needed to further his education. That realization led him back to school after an 18-year gap, a move he calls “one of the best decisions” of his adult life. His experience offers valuable insights for anyone considering grad school, especially those who may feel it’s “too late” to return.

Adapting to Change and Embracing Lifelong Learning

One prominent theme from Ervin’s story is embracing change. When he first entered grad school, the world had shifted dramatically—classes were online, technology was central, and Blackboard replaced the typewriters of his college days. By asking questions, seeking support, and choosing in-person classes, Ervin exemplified adaptability and the willingness to step out of his comfort zone.

The Importance of Support and Community

Ervin’s journey also highlights the value of strong support systems. He credits coworkers, colleagues, and campus resources with providing the motivation and flexibility he needed to succeed. For working professionals, leveraging employer education benefits, as Ervin did, can minimize financial barriers and provide a smoother path forward.

Finding Balance and Avoiding Burnout

Graduate school requires resilience. Ervin candidly shares the struggles he faced: late nights, technology mishaps, and moments of doubt. His advice? Find balance, rely on time management, and take breaks to recharge. Hobbies like chess and cooking offered him much-needed mental space.

Advice for Prospective Students

For anyone contemplating graduate school, Ervin urges you not to wait: "The longer you delay, the harder it can be to get back in the groove." Apply yourself fully, build relationships, and surround yourself with people who motivate and support you.

Ready for more inspiration and actionable insights? Tune into this episode of "Victors in Grad School" and hear first-hand how perseverance, adaptability, and a strong community can lead to graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love that you come back, that you listen, that you are working to prepare yourself for this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Because no matter where you are in thinking about graduate school, applying to graduate school, going to graduate school, wherever you are in this pathway, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: And you're going to find that there are things that you can do along that path to help yourself to find success sooner. And that's what this show is all about. This show is here to help you to be able to make better choices, to be able to find new ways of doing things, to give yourself some tools for your toolbox that will prepare you to find success sooner. That's why every week I bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own experiences, sometimes good, sometimes maybe not so good of things that they learned along the way that can help you to again prepare yourself. This week we got another great guest. Irvin Levy is with us today. And Irvin is the Assistant Director of Facility Operations and Risk Management and Recreational Services at the University of Michigan, Flint. He did his undergraduate work at Central Michigan University and then did his graduate work here at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: We're going to learn a little bit more about him and about his experiences and his own journey in going to grad school. Ervin, thanks so much for being here today.

Ervin Leavy [00:01:56]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:58]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you today. I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at Central Michigan University, and at some point during either your undergraduate degree or after graduating, you got an inkling, you got an inkling, you got that itch, you started to scratch it, you decided that you were going to go to graduate school. Take me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Ervin Leavy [00:02:31]: Well, I got my Undergrad degree in 1991 from Central Michigan University. I began working here at the university in 2002, and I just had my undergrad degree after about seven years working in higher education. Education. That's when I realized I needed to further my education, especially on the technology side, as I was an Adjunct lecturer. So in 2009, I decided that I was going to go back to school and get my master's degree in technology and education. And that was one of the best moves that I ever made in my adult life was going back to school. Because when I came out in 91, there were not very many computers and we all had typewriters when I was in college. So when I went back to school in 2009, it was to.

Ervin Leavy [00:03:17]: Everything was totally different. Work was being done on blackboard, everything was pretty much online. So that was an adjustment period for me. But working in higher education, I felt that was needed in order for me to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:30]: So you decided to continue your education at the University of Michigan Flint. And you probably had some reasons for doing that. And I guess talk to me about the, your decision making and as you were looking at different programs potentially or why you chose not only the University of Michigan Flint, but why educational technology?

Ervin Leavy [00:03:50]: Well, at the time I was an adjunct lecturer, I taught a variety of one credit classes. And what I noticed in the classroom was I wasn't that advanced in technology. And I chose that field because I thought it would help me in my teachings. And it did. I learned a lot regarding just working with the disabled. I learned the importance of using closed captions in my teachings. And that was the reason I went. And another reason I went is being an employee here at the university.

Ervin Leavy [00:04:25]: There's a excellent tuition reimbursement program, so I had to take advantage of that. And it didn't cost me anything. Only thing I had to pay for was my books. So I couldn't let that opportunity pass me by.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:38]: You know, and that's something that we haven't talked a lot about, even though some people from past shows have talked about that, is that you may be out there, you may be working, and there could be educational benefits that your employer provides you. And I always encourage people to take the time to have a conversation with your human resources office to find out are there opportunities that are available because they could be there. You just have to make sure you understand what the strings that are attached to that money are. So make sure that you're asking the right questions and determine whether or not you want to be bound by whatever the rules are if there is educational money that is available through your employer. Because I've seen people come in and they're, they and it's a great program. And then I've seen others where they may have to stay with the employer for a certain amount of time or the money that they took becomes alone. So you have to watch that and just know what you're getting yourself into, which is great. Now every person goes through a process of transition as they go into graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:49]: You have to kind of figure out for yourself the differences, because there are true differences in moving from being an undergraduate student to working in the workforce to then going back into, for you, going back into graduate school. And at each of those points, there are different transitions. So you had transitioned out of being an undergraduate student into, into full time work and then you decided to come back into school. So there's a transition there. So talk to me about these transitions and what you had to do when you transitioned into graduate school to find success and what you had to do to maintain that success throughout your entire graduate school experience.

Ervin Leavy [00:06:31]: Well, when I went to graduate school, I had been out of school for about 18 years. So when I decided to go back, everything was totally different. Like I said, everything was online, all assignments were on blackboard. We didn't use blackboard when I was an undergrad back in the 90s. And a part of what really helped me was I asked questions and I made sure I know what was helpful for me is instead of taking online classes, I preferred to go sit in the classroom. And I went and I sat in the front row for every class and tried to learn as much as I could. And I asked questions that was important. And I had some wonderful advisors and some wonderful professors that walked me through, which was very helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:17]: Now there are times, especially after going back after so many years, I talk to students all the time that have a feeling of imposter syndrome and self doubt that they fade as they go through graduate school, especially as they enter into graduate school. Did you feel that for yourself? And if so, how did you handle it?

Ervin Leavy [00:07:39]: I had doubts, but I knew I needed to do it in order to be a better adjunct lecturer. I had a lot of doubts and I think just taking that step and just pushing forward and pushing through it, it became easier for me. But what I learned in the master's program is there was a lot more flexibility in the master's program. A lot of the students that were in those programs had families, they were working full time. So the flexibility that was provided for us was so helpful in undergrad. I don't recall having that type of flexibility. I recall a couple semesters instead of taking two, three credit courses, I took a three credit course and they let me break down the other three credits by doing one at a time, which was really helpful. And I was able to still work full time and go to school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:32]: When you're balancing so many things, sometimes it's hard to keep that motivation going. How did you stay motivated through challenging times, challenging semesters, you know, and get to the finish line in the end?

Ervin Leavy [00:08:45]: That was tough because there were times when I really wanted to just throw the towel in and give up there. There was one incident where I was up till 4 in the morning working on some stuff and I ended up losing all of the work and I ended up going to bed and I got back up about 8am I contacted my professor and told him what happened and I just got back to it. But I was motivated. I really had to finish the task. And I just think that's probably one of my stronger points is completing tasks and meeting deadlines and those strengths really helped me through the program. I was not going to give up. I had friends that went through grad school. That was motivation for me.

Ervin Leavy [00:09:27]: Also I had co workers to do it. So that was motivation for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:31]: I talk about balancing and you are working full time and you have family, you have friends, you've got lots of competing demands when it came to getting through your academic program. And every student has to find balance for themselves. Talk to me about balance and how you were able to find that optimal balance that allowed for you to be able to get through graduate school school in an optimal way.

Ervin Leavy [00:10:02]: I think the most important thing is that I was already working here at the university and my supervisors allowed me that flexibility where if I had a class at 4 o' clock, I could leave my office and go to class and come back and I, you know, work maybe a couple hours later. That was very helpful for me. But I also had to go above and beyond. I had to stay up later. I had to give up some weekends. I remember a class I took, we had be here Saturdays for maybe four or five weeks in a row for half the day. And that was the class. But I had to make that sacrifice.

Ervin Leavy [00:10:38]: But just working here at the university and already being on campus, that relieves so much pressure, which I know there are others who probably wouldn't have that luxury. So I was fortunate to already be on campus and was able to be flexible with work. And yeah, there were times when I even did homework while I was in the office.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: You talked a little bit about times where you felt that burnout and you definitely had to push through. As you talked about how did you end up in the end avoiding burnout or recovering when you did feel overwhelmed.

Ervin Leavy [00:11:14]: My doctor talked to me years ago. And he gave me some advice that stuck with me to this day. And it's over 20 years ago. He said, urban, if there are things you can change, change them. If you can't change them, don't worry about it. So I stopped worrying about all the stressful moments. I couldn't let it break me down. I would just take a break.

Ervin Leavy [00:11:37]: I love to play chess, so I would go play some chess just to get my mind away from everything. I love to cook, too. I would go cook and just put everything to the side and regroup, recharge and. And I created a good balance. Just had to move some things around in my personal life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:53]: One of the things that important is the connections that you make, the connections that you make with your peers, but also with your faculty. Talk to me about relationships that you were able to build both with faculty and peers, and how did they impact.

Ervin Leavy [00:12:09]: You as a student, my peers, I had some co workers here that were in the master's programs also. And we all stuck together. We motivated each other. And being an employee of the university, I was a familiar face. So I was pretty well connected. And the support that I received was just unlimited. And all of that played a factor in my success. And when you talk about relationships that I've built over the years, I'm very thankful and grateful for a lot of my colleagues and the people that motivated me.

Ervin Leavy [00:12:43]: And what I learned, too, is about schooling. I feel like anything you put your mind to, if you apply yourself, surround yourself with people that can help you, you can accomplish those goals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:56]: What would you say is the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during your graduate school experience that helped you in the graduate school outside of the classroom?

Ervin Leavy [00:13:08]: I think my organizational skills got a little better. I've always been an organized person. But when I got into those programs and got another 40 to 50%, it was almost two. Having two jobs, I really had to use my time efficiently and being efficient with every moment. And when I finished the program, I was a more efficient worker in recreational services because of those experiences. I'm very efficient with my time now, where before I don't think I was as efficient, but that's what I learned outside of the classroom. It's just even more structured. And being a former athlete, that's where I learned structure and discipline.

Ervin Leavy [00:13:50]: But going to school and working full time, it's really the same thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:54]: What's one thing that you wish that someone had told you before you started graduate school?

Ervin Leavy [00:13:59]: I had a lot of people tell me I should go to graduate school. But I had been out of school for so long, it was tough for me to get motivated. What I think I wish someone would have told me would probably be, you need to get it done now, don't wait. Get it done now. And I wish I would have done it earlier. You know, I got here, the university in 2002, and I didn't take advantage of the opportunity to go back until 2009. So like I said, I had been out of school for 18 years before I finally decided to do it. And people told me all the time, you should go back.

Ervin Leavy [00:14:36]: You need to do it now. Don't wait. The longer you wait, the more difficult it'll be to. To get back acclimated. And it was tough. I struggled in the beginning because blackboard, all of that was new to me, but I worked my way through it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:48]: As you think about other students that are thinking about going to graduate, what are some tips that you might offer to these other students, no matter if they were doing education or any other field that would help them find success sooner?

Ervin Leavy [00:15:01]: Do your best. Apply yourself. Apply yourself 100% as if you're going to work every day. And that's what was helpful for me. I applied myself and take it seriously. When I went back in 2009, I was one of the older students, but I said, I'm going to sit in the front row every day. And I saw there were a lot of students that I didn't think were really, really taking things serious. And when assignments were due, they struggled.

Ervin Leavy [00:15:27]: When group projects were due, they struggled. Apply yourself. Do your best. And I'm proud to say I finished my Master's program with a perfect gpa. I had never done that, but it was because I never applied myself either. I was a good student, but I never applied myself like I did when I went into the Master's program. And that's the best GPA that I ever had in my life. But it also helped me as a professional because I apply myself the same way in everything I do now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:54]: Well, Irvin, I just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, and I wish you all the best.

Ervin Leavy [00:16:00]: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:02]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at Flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is often called a journey, and for good reason. In the latest episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Abby Parrill, the Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs at the University of Michigan-Flint, to unpack what it truly takes to succeed as a graduate student. Whether you’re contemplating applying, awaiting your first semester, or knee-deep in research, the experiences and advice shared in this episode offer practical guidance and inspiration for every stage of the process.

One of the key themes Dr. Parrill discusses is intentional decision-making—knowing why you’re choosing graduate school and how it aligns with your long-term goals. She recounted how, as an undergraduate at Central Michigan University, her co-op experience at Dow Chemical revealed to her that advanced degrees opened doors to more autonomy and interesting projects, prompting her to further her education immediately, rather than settling into a job right away.

Dr. Parrill also shares her experience of choosing the right graduate program, highlighting the importance of considering personal and professional factors. Her decision to attend the University of Arizona was influenced not only by its academic offerings but also by where both she and her then-fiancé could study complementary fields on the same campus.

Preparation is another recurring theme. Academic preparation, such as building a solid foundation during undergrad and leveraging work experiences, paid off for Dr. Parrill—especially when it came to placement exams and early graduate coursework. She stresses the importance of treating graduate school as a full-time commitment, dedicating oneself not just in the classroom but also through research, networking, and even tutoring or mentoring others.

The transition to graduate-level work often brings feelings of imposter syndrome and self-doubt. Dr. Parrill’s candid insights into these struggles—and the importance of leaning on mentors and building supportive networks—underscore that such challenges are common, but surmountable.

Finally, Dr. Parrill shares wisdom on balancing responsibilities and being intentional about time management, whether you’re juggling teaching, research, work, or family obligations. Her advice, derived from mentoring students with complex lives and her own experience, rings true for anyone seeking to thrive in graduate school and beyond.

Are you considering graduate school, or are you currently navigating its demands? Tune into this episode for actionable tips, personal stories, and the reassurance that the path, while challenging, is absolutely rewarding.

Listen to the full episode to glean more practical advice and inspiration to fuel your graduate school journey!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, we are here to talk with you, to work with you on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey, because it truly is a journey. And every one of us, as we think about graduate school, have to go through a process to be able to prepare ourselves, to work through the process of not only applying to graduate school, getting into graduate school, but getting through graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: And to do that, there are things that you can do to find success in that journey, and that's why this podcast exists every week. I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences, people from different walks of life that have gone before you. They've gone to graduate school, they've been successful, they've come out the other end mostly unscathed, and they have been able to learn things along the way. Learn things about themselves, but learn things about the process of going to graduate school and what they had to do to find success. This week, we've got another great guest. Dr. Abby Parrill is with us today, and Dr. Perel is the Provost and Vice Chancellor for Academic affairs at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:23]: And Dr. Parrill joined the University of Michigan Flint about a month ago. She has transitioned from working at the University of Memph for a number of years, and now she's here, and I'm really excited to have her here to talk to you about her own experiences and to be able to help you better understand some of the things that she had to learn along the way. Dr. Pero, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:01:46]: Absolutely. Thank you for the invite.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Well, I really appreciate being able to talk with you today. I'm always excited to be able to learn from other people and the journey that they're on. And I know that when you were in your undergraduate work, at some point back at Central Michigan University, there was a point in time. There was a point in time where you made a decision. You made a decision that you were going to continue your education, weren't going to just finish that degree and go off and work and maybe go over to Dow Chemical down the road, but you made a decision to continue on. Can you take me back to that point and what was going through your head and what made you Decide that that was the right step at that point.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:02:25]: Absolutely. So it's funny you mentioned Dow Chemical, because I was actually in the cooperative education program at Dow Chemical while I was an undergraduate student. Great learning experience. Let me see how to use what I was learning in the classroom in a real chemistry lab. But one of the things I learned was that the chemists that had doctoral degrees had a lot more autonomy and more interesting projects. And those with bachelor's degrees tended to do very routine, repetitive things that did require chemistry knowledge. And I enjoyed doing those routine, repetitive things as an undergraduate student because it allowed me to get really good at a few of the skills I had learned as an undergraduate. But I couldn't see myself doing that for 10, 15, 20 more years.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:03:10]: And there had been a panel held, sponsored by Central Michigan University, I think it was our student affiliates of the American Chemical Society sponsored a panel about graduate school, med school, or work as being some of the common directions someone might go after right after completing the bachelor's degree. And there were people on the panel who had started employment first and then gone to graduate school and others who had gone straight to graduate school. And they talked about kind of the challenge of getting into the work environment, getting used to a particular salary, and then stepping back to graduate school and going back to that kind of restricted income as being a very sincere challenge that they faced. And I decided that since I knew I didn't want to remain at the bachelor's level for my entire career, that I was just going to grit my teeth and move on and get the graduate degree right away.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:09]: Now, one of the things that I always am interested in is, you know, you decided to go and continue your education, like you mentioned, and you ended up applying to schools. But I'm sure that you went through a process of exploring schools to try to find the right fit, and you ended up finding a fit at the University of Arizona doing organic chemistry. Talk to me about that process that you went through for yourself to explore, but also to identify that final decision of the University of Arizona. And what was it about the University of Arizona that made it the best fit for you?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:04:48]: So searching for graduate schools was very different when I was searching for graduate schools than it would be for today's prospective graduate students. My first shopping for graduate schools was to go to the big rings that our undergraduate institutions had bolted on the wall. And they had big paper flyers hanging from these rings. And each flyer was for a specific graduate program in chemistry. And they had little tear off cards, and you could fill out your contact information and put them in the mail. And they would mail you information much faster. Now to use the all of the wonderful online tools you have, you can go to a website and shop instead of having to send off a card and wait. But another avenue of exploration is very much relevant today, and that's to talk to your faculty.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:05:36]: I asked some of my faculty. I'm looking at this three foot thick pile of programs and I have no idea how to choose. And I got a piece of interesting advice from one of my undergraduate faculty members who said, try somewhere really different for graduate school. Because graduate school is a limited period of time. Once you graduate, you have the opportunity to stay near where you go to graduate school or go somewhere else if you don't like that that region of the country or that part of the world. And I found that very interesting advice. And so as I was actually applying to graduate schools, my not then yet husband and I each agreed we were going to pick several schools. We were both going to apply to each other's schools as well as our own.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:06:25]: And we were going to see where we got our acceptances and then decide. And out of the schools I had visited and the ones that I had acceptances at that my husband was interested in, my future husband at the time, now currently husband, we narrowed it down to the University of Arizona and the University of Pennsylvania. I was going to go in chemistry, he was going to go in pharmacology and toxicology. And at the University of Pennsylvania, those two were on two different campuses, two hours apart. And at the University of Arizona, they were on the same campus across a major street from each other. So maybe a 10 minute walk. And given that we both liked both of the institutions and our respective programs at those institutions, we opted for the let's go where we can be together. And the desert Southwest is about as different from Michigan in terms of climate and native flora and fauna as you can get.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:21]: So it was an opportunity to try someplace really different.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:07:24]: Definitely very different. And I'm sure that along the way you definitely learned a few things about the the desert Southwest versus here and things that you like or don't like as well as when you're in the Midwest and things that you like or don't like. And I guess one of the things that I think about as you made that move, when you made that move down to the desert Southwest, there's things that you can do to prepare yourself both academically, professionally, personally to make a move like that, as you think back to that move for yourself, how did you prepare academically, professionally, personally, before starting graduate school to help you to make that transition into graduate school?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:08:08]: Well, I will say, while I didn't intend it to be preparation at the time, participating in that cooperative education internship opportunity where I could use chemistry daily in a work environment rather than just study it academically, and that repetition of a certain subset of chemistry was phenomenally important. So when I headed off to graduate school, the chemistry department administered a set of, let's call them placement exams. That isn't what they were called, but we'll call them that. And the ones I did the best on were the ones that overlapped with not just my academic experience, but my work experience. So that opportunity to use what I had learned and use it over and over and over really did cement what I had learned and make it so that I could be very successful on that subset of what I had learned as an undergraduate really shifted it into long term memory. And so the opportunity to go back and review things and use things in a different way, I would say the more you can view your entire undergraduate curriculum as connected and building transferable skills and use them from one class into the next, or find work experiences where you can use some of those things that turned out to be one of the best preparations I could have done, even though I didn't think about it that way at the time. And really the move across the country, there's no preparation for that. I will say I learned from the experience though, because I have now moved across the country again for the third time in maybe fourth time in my life.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:09:51]: And one thing I didn't do that first time that I have gotten better at every time is don't pack things you're going to throw away when you unpack them. Start your packing early enough that you're really being discriminating about what you pack.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:06]: That's great advice. I think everybody could probably learn from that and not just if you're going to graduate school.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:10:12]: Yeah.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:13]: When you transition into graduate school, there is a difference. There's a difference between the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student as a way that and the way that you're taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations, different perspectives. And as I mentioned at the beginning, you did get your degree, so you were successful getting through that degree. And I guess as you think about your transition in to the academic work, talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success and what are some things that you had to do to maintain that success. As you went through the entire academic experience.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:10:51]: Yeah. So as an undergraduate student you will probably take, probably will have taken more classes at a time than you will as a graduate student, but that doesn't mean you should treat it as less work. So I treated my graduate experience the way I had treated the combination of my full time undergraduate program and my halftime internship at dow and really treated graduate school as the same time commitment. And less of my time was in class, but more of it was invested in other aspects of being successful. Reading literature in my field that I was studying so that I could learn what's going on in my field, find things that I could apply into my research project, just be generally well informed. I did some tutoring in part I did it for some money on the side, but it was also to really repeat those kind of early chemistry concepts by helping an undergraduate student learn them for the first time to make sure I was always fresh and I always had that solid foundation to build from. It also gave me some one on one teaching and mentoring experience that has been tremendously useful throughout my career. And so treat graduate school absolutely as at least a full time job, if not more.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:12:16]: Even if you weren't scheduled full time, find useful things to do that will help you advance through the program in the other part of that full time experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:27]: You know, one of the things that I think about when you talk about that is the fact that as you make that switch for yourself, many times graduate students talk to me about a feeling of imposter syndrome, especially as you become a graduate student, because you're looked at in a different way and you're held at a different standard than you are as an undergraduate student. And especially if you're in a PhD program where maybe you're being asked to teach or do high level research, there's expectations that are there. Did you ever face imposter syndrome or self doubt during your graduate studies and how did you handle it?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:13:06]: Self doubt? Yes. I don't think I knew the word imposter syndrome when I was a graduate student. I had been academically successful. I knew how to learn in a classroom. But it's different when you are asked to be creative and develop a project and contribute to a project. And it can feel overwhelming that how can I go look in the literature in my field and find what's missing, what projects still need to be done. How can I add something to this discipline when there's 500 journals and I'm 50 years behind? Well, hundreds of years behind. There's so much to Learn to know how my project that I'm supposed to be generating to be the basis for either a thesis or a dissertation.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:13:52]: How can I decide what my value add to the field is going to be? That certainly felt overwhelming. And luckily my first challenge at developing a project proposal was actually within the context of a class. So it wasn't necessarily my dissertation project. That was my first challenge to create my own project. And so the field was narrowed to the top topic of the class. And, and the t. The professor did a really nice job of giving us some strategies of how to identify a project that might need to be done. So there was a lot of guidance.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:14:29]: And so what I would say to anyone who's feeling overwhelmed and, and like you don't know how to start. You're going to have a graduate committee, you're going to have a major professor or a mentor. Go to them, share how you're feeling and ask for some strategies on how to get started. It's, it's okay to lean on your mentors. I have leaned on mentors through my entire career. And as I transition into my new role as provost, I had a one year opportunity to try out the role at a different institution as an interim. But trust me, I leaned on prior provosts that were still at my institution. I leaned on the president at the University of Memphis.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:15:08]: Now I'm leaning a little bit on the chancellor. As I, as I onboard into my new role. I still have mentors and I'm not going to say how long I've been in my career, but it's been a while. Or to borrow from the south, it's been a minute. And those mentors, I think can be tremendous supporters and they can support you better if you share a little bit of that vulnerability about how you feel overwhelmed because then they know kind of how to, how to reassure you and share maybe an experience where they felt overwhelmed and how they overcame it, but also some strategies to, to, to, to get going. Once you get going and you start making progress, it changes a lot. You, you see some progress, you say, oh, I can do this and a mentor can help you on that path to, to making some progress that helps you feel like you belong and, and that you were admitted to graduate school because you really are capable of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: You know, earlier you said that someone told you it is a finite amount of time and it truly is a finite amount of time. When you're in graduate school, it is a finite amount of time. There are that are going to be thrown your way and you're going to be asked to learn a lot in that short amount of time. It may look like it's a long amount of time, but you're going to find very quickly that it goes very fast. Now, as you went through your own graduate experience, as you mentioned, you were there with your significant other, and not everybody has that experience, but everyone has to learn how to balance. Everyone has to learn how to balance school, work, family, and any other personal responsibilities that they may have in their life, while trying to also focus on why they're there, which is the academic experience. Talk to me about how you balanced all of those competing factors for yourself so that you could still be successful.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:17:04]: So for me, I had been, before I went to graduate school, a full time undergraduate student taking 15 or more credit hours a semester. I'd been driving 20 minutes each way to get to Dow Chemical on my internship days. They expected me to put in 20 hours a week. I was doing a lot of studying. I was engaged a little bit as an undergraduate student in some student, in particularly the chemistry student organization. So there was a little bit of the campus life that I was participating in when I got to graduate school. And I treated it like an 8 to 5 job. I could actually get all my work done between eight and five.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:17:43]: And this is attending classes, preparing to teach my classes, teaching my classes, doing a little bit of tutoring. At least in the first semester, that was all I was expected to do while shopping for my research mentor. And then when I found my research mentor, I tutored a bit less because I had to invest time in the research project. So as I transitioned through the graduate program and I needed to spend more and more time on my research, I decided very deliberately, here are all the things I'm doing. Which of these do I need to do less of so that I can make time for this new thing that's, that's part of my graduate program. So initially it was okay, well, I was tutoring a lot because I was taking only three classes and that didn't fill up my eight to five time, even with the studying. So I was doing a lot of tutoring in the first semester. Once I had my research group and I started my research, I paired that way back.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:18:36]: And then of course, at least in a doctoral program, you're not going to be taking classes for the full period. So the classes are going to start dropping off as you complete the course based requirements and then you just simply choose to invest that time in the research that you need to do. And so being very deliberate about what am I doing? What new thing is coming my way, and what am I going to kind of do less of in order to make time for this new thing? The people I am super impressed with in terms of balance, I actually mentored as doctoral students when I was a faculty member, two different mothers of four children. And they amazed me with their balance. And so I'd actually share a word or two of wisdom from them. One of them waited until her youngest child started high school. So she had. Her oldest was in college with her as an undergraduate when she started graduate school.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:19:31]: She had gotten her undergraduate degree before starting her family, but she came back for graduate school once her. Her young child got into high school. And part of her way to carve out time to be a graduate student as well as a mother was everyone in the family agreed that they wanted to help mom go to school, go back and earn her her next degree. And so everyone in the family picked a day where they were responsible for dinner. They had to do the meal planning. They had to add things to the grocery list. She would do the grocery shopping on the weekend for the week, but they had to have planned their dinner that they were responsible for. And with everyone in the family picking a.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:20:10]: That meant that she could do put in the full day, get her research, come home just in time for dinner, and it would be ready to go on the table, and the family could still eat together. And that was something she found tremendously helpful in balancing her academic work with her family obligations. I had another mother of four. Her situation was very different. She had children with learning challenges. She had a deadbeat dad. She was spending time in court trying to get the child support out of. So she had a very strange schedule and set of obligations.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:20:46]: And yet when she dropped her kids off at school, she came in and she did her work until the kids started coming home, and then she would spend time with her kids. And because I was a computational chemist and her work was all on a computer, she could then log in and after they went to bed and do some more work after the kids went to sleep. So very different scheduling, very different way to kind of manage the work versus the family. And so hers was to kind of split the time so she would leave at 2 so she could make sure to be home when all the kids started coming home from school, and then from two to whatever time was theirs. And then she would do more in the evening before getting up and starting all over again.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:26]: Completely inspirational stories. I mean, those individuals that are able to balance all of those things are ones that amazes me because there are so many expectations on you as a student and you have to have support along the way. I know you mentioned that you learned quite a bit inside the classroom and you do, you definitely do that while you're going through graduate school. But there's a lot of learning that happens outside of the classroom as well. As you think back to the experience that you went through, what was the most valuable thing that you learned outside the classroom during graduate school?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:22:01]: I want to say networking. I had an opportunity to go to a research, my first research conference as a graduate student very early in my graduate career, great big national conference in my discipline probably had thousands of people, probably tens of thousands, over 10,000 people at this meeting. And that was a daunting experience. Here I am a brand new graduate student giving my first presentation at this huge national meeting. And so I kind of felt like I was following my research mentor around and he took pains to introduce me to people and, and urge me to actually talk to them and you know, to. Sometimes he would kind of just give me the little, the little motion that I should go talk to such. And so without the introduction. So he kind of weaned me into the, the go out and meet people and talk to them about their work, tell them about yours.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:22:56]: And. And in my talk, I was doing work based, kind of building off of something another scientist had published. And that scientist was in the room and actually asked me a question, asked, you know, where did I get the basis for this thing I was talking about? And I said, well, from your paper. And of course his response was to laugh. And he came up and talked to me afterwards and it was just very gratifying to me that a senior scientist actually came to my talk and then came up to me afterwards to say what he liked about it and that he appreciated that I was building on his work. But the networking aspect, meeting other people in your discipline, it may not show, but I'm a little bit reticent about meeting new people, which is strange in the role I'm in moving to a new institution, I'm having to meet lots of new people. But one strategy I convinced myself to use the first time after that that I went to a conference by my. Without other members of my group is I challenged myself to find someone different to have a meal with every day.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:24:05]: It didn't have to be every meal, but if I'm at a poster session and I meet another graduate student and we have a conversation, just ask, did you have plans for dinner? Do you want to find a place to eat. And that can be a great starting point, I think kind of getting to know other people in your field. And don't always think about the senior people in your field. Find another graduate student in your field at the meeting because those are relationships, if you start building them are going to last a long time throughout your Career, they definitely can. And you'll find yourself reaching out to them in many different ways throughout the year.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]: You talked earlier about not only mentors, but people that you can contact that are, they may be just peers, but there's still people that you rely on to be able to help you and that you have as a confidant along the way. Because there's going to be points in time in your career where you may need someone that can just be that listening ear that understands what you're going through or can at least empathize with what you're going through and can give you some words of either solace or advice.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:25:05]: And you never know when someone who's up here now may be on a hiring committee for a job you're interested in later.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:11]: So true, so true that has happened. Was there any type of defining moment for you or turning point that really shaped your academic journey?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:25:20]: Oh, absolutely. So when I first marched off to graduate school, I was interested in kind of interfacing some discipline of chemistry with a research problem of biological significance. So I was looking for bio something chemistry projects to work on because I thought I was going to earn my doctoral degree and march off to the pharmaceutical industry and be part of the research that creates life saving medications without having to deal with sick people. So as I marched off to graduate school I was envisioning for myself a life in the chemical industry, the business side of chemistry, but, but the research aspect. And as I did my teaching assistantship and my tutoring, I would come home and talk to my future husband and, and talk about how, oh, you know, this student today was so confused when they came in for tutoring and I, you know, kind of talked to them about the problem and they were still confused. And so I tried explaining it a different way and tried backing them up to find out why they were confused. And on the, I just saw their eyes light up when they got it and they could get through that problem and solve it. He said, sounds like you really like to teach.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:26:38]: Oh, I love to teach. He said, so you really want to go into the pharmaceutical industry? Like I'm sure I can find a way to teach on the side or something. Maybe I'LL teach a class at a nearby community college. He's like, okay, we must have had that conversation a dozen times over the course of about a year and a half. And finally I said, you know, I probably should just look for an academic job when I finish here, because I do really love to teach. And having a family member to kind of be that sounding board and just ask me a question, are you sure that's the direction you want to go? Made me think about it again and again and again. And so as you think about potential career pathways, share them with someone who knows you well and have those conversations about why you're thinking of that pathway and what do you really love and does that pathway way, you know, scratch that itch and let you do what you really love.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:32]: So as you think back to that graduate school experience as well, how did graduate school change the way that you think, work, or approach problems?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:27:41]: Oh, so one of the most embarrassing things that happened to me in graduate school was during my oral exam. So my comprehensive exam had an oral component to it. It. And one of my research mentors, I had actually had co mentors for my project, asked me a question and I answered it badly. And so she asked it again with a little bit of help, because in your oral exam, that's what they do. They want to push you past where you can answer questions well and then see if a little bit of help allows you to rescue yourself. Right. They're testing your limit.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:28:17]: You're not going to feel like you passed your oral exams, not if your mentors are pushing you. And she gave me a little bit of context. And the context was to remind me that another member of our group had been looking at something like this and had talked about at a group meeting recently. And I could not connect the dots. I had sat through. I can't tell you how many group meetings not paying close enough attention to my other grad student fellows in my group, what they were doing and what they were learning. And so one of my take homes is to really learn from everybody in every meeting I'm in and not just mark time until it's my turn to tell about my project, but to learn about everyone else's also. And to me, that is an invaluable skill, that listening skill.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:29:06]: And I was embarrassed that I could not connect the dots to something one of my grad school colleagues had probably talked about a dozen times in our research group meetings, which were weekly by the time I did my oral exam. So learning to listen, I think, was very much something that I hadn't really put enough emphasis on before that point. And after that point, I started paying much more attention and listening and taking notes and learning from my peers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:38]: As you think back to the very beginning, before you started graduate school, what's something that you wish someone had told you before you started graduate school that would have helped you in that graduate school experience?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:29:51]: I think I probably could have started reading the literature a lot earlier than I did. You know, there were lots of topics in even my undergraduate program where there's a rich kind of set of primary sources I wasn't reading. I was just reading the textbook because the textbook was assigned and the primary sources upon which the textbook was based were not assigned. And it wasn't until I got to a senior level kind of advanced, advanced undergraduate course. It was kind of a half graduate, half undergraduate course where I actually had to use primary sources in problem solving. But again, the textbook had the problems and it actually had recommended primary sources. So we'd all go to the library and we'd all go find them and stack them on a table, and everybody that had to do this assignment would then have them all there. But there were a lot of things I could have learned earlier.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:30:48]: And in my field, there's the hardcore primary sources where they expect only someone within the discipline who already has a doctorate degree to ever read them. Maybe not those sources, but certainly some of the more general audience sources, something like science. Often those are written for a broader audience, certainly trained scientists, but not trained scientists in a specific discipline. And so some of those are more approachable. And I could have been reading things like that much earlier. So if you have an interest in graduate school, I would find a few journals related to your discipline that are not quite so narrowly focused at the all the people who already have a PhD degree in X, but are a little bit broader. There are lots of journals that publish lots of review articles, and those are great starting points as you're exploring an area. And they're still secondary sources, but they're not textbooks.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:31:42]: There's a lot more in them and a lot more current things in them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:45]: Finally, as you think back to your graduate education and you think about other individuals that might be thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might want to offer other students that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:31:59]: Oh, don't be afraid to ask questions. Lots and lots of questions. And it can be questions of other graduate students. Maybe if you're looking for a graduate school school, that's step one, and you have an opportunity to go visit one, make sure there's time set aside while you're visiting to talk to some graduate students that are already there. What do they like about the program? What have they found challenging about the program? Do they find unnecessary barriers within the program? Who are the mentors they like to work with? Who are the mentors that maybe aren't flexible enough for someone with a challenging work life balance or children to take care of? If you can work a regular schedule, maybe it doesn't matter. But if, if you have child care responsibilities or even parental care responsibilities and you need some flexibility, you need to make sure you have a mentor that's going to be understanding and be flexible. Not every mentor works the same way with their students. They all have great content expertise.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:33:01]: But if you work best with someone who's going to leave you alone until you ask, that's one kind of mentor. But if you need someone who's going to check in with you every day and say, how's it going? Do you have any questions? If you need that kind of more one on one in intrusive mentoring, you'll need to know who the intrusive mentors are. So thinking about your own work habits and what kind of mentoring you're going to respond best to helps you ask good questions. When you're shopping for the graduate school and the graduate mentor that you're going to work with most closely and ask all those questions while you're shopping. And then once you're in graduate school and you hit those stumbling blocks, you have a graduate committee for a reason. They are supposed to be your resources. Don't wait until a committee meeting. If someone on your committee has expertise that you would benefit from.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:51]: All great advice and as Dr. Parrill said, if you are on a research oriented trajectory and you do have a committee and you have an opportunity to have some say in who your committee is, make sure to identify individuals that, that you connect with, that you work well with, that you have a relationship with, because they are going to be spending a lot of time with you and you need to be able to trust them, that they have your back and that you can come to them with those issues, those questions, those things that you need. So that is very important and something that you definitely need to make sure that you are dealing with handling as you are moving through that process. So Dr. Pero, thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I really appreciate your time and your willingness to share everything and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Abby Parrill [00:34:47]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:48]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint as programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Hello everyone, Chris here with Victors in Grad School. I wanted to give you a quick update that we’re taking a short pause this week from releasing a new episode. Our Office of Graduate Programs is in full gear preparing for the Fall 2025 application deadline, and that means I need to shift my focus just for a few days to make sure everything is running smoothly for our prospective students.

We'll be back next week with more great conversations and insights to help you navigate your graduate school journey. In the meantime, let this serve as your reminder: check those deadlines! Whether you're applying to UM-Flint or another institution, staying ahead of the timeline is a huge part of setting yourself up for success.

If grad school is part of your future goals, take the next step—get that application in, reach out to programs with questions, and keep moving forward. Your future self will thank you.

Talk to you soon!

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Are you thinking about graduate school, in the midst of your studies, or reflecting on your own academic journey? If so, the latest episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast is one you won’t want to miss! Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, this engaging episode features Jackie Halligan, Human Resources professional at the University of Michigan-Flint, who offers a candid look into her path through academia and into a thriving HR career.

The Journey is Unique for Everyone

Right from the start, Dr. Lewis reminds us: graduate education is a journey, not a race. Jackie’s story perfectly illustrates this. After earning her Bachelor’s in Employee Relations at Michigan State University, she worked in the field before deciding to pursue a master’s degree. What sparked her return to the classroom? Mentorship and practical advice during an undergrad internship made it clear that a graduate degree was the “golden ticket” for advancing in human resources.

Finding the Right Fit

Jackie emphasizes the importance of researching programs to find the best fit. She didn’t simply chase prestige—she sought a university with a top-tier HR program, ultimately returning to Michigan State for her master’s in labor and industrial relations. Her advice to prospective students: visit campuses, explore programs, and choose the environment where you feel most comfortable and supported.

Preparation and Persistence Lead to Success

Jackie credits her undergraduate experience with teaching her how to study, manage time, and persevere through academic challenges—skills that were crucial for succeeding in grad school. She highlights the unique benefits of a smaller graduate cohort, where close relationships with professors and peers created a supportive network.

Applying Graduate Education in the Real World

Throughout her career—in manufacturing and academia—Jackie has leaned on her social science background, which helped her empathize, communicate, and balance employee and company interests. She stresses that passion is more important than chasing a paycheck. Decades into her HR career, she still finds her work deeply rewarding.

Final Advice for Future Graduate Students

Jackie’s overarching message is clear: Find your passion, research your options thoroughly, and set yourself up for success by choosing a graduate program that’s the right fit for you—not just the one with the highest salary prospects.

Eager to learn more and be inspired by Jackie’s story? Listen to the full episode of “Victors in Grad School” and start charting your own path to graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school. Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week you and I are on a journey. I say that every week. But it truly is the case that education and the journey, the what you're doing right now, whether you're at the very beginning just starting to think about this, or you're maybe you've already applied and you've gotten accepted, or maybe you're in graduate school, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:41]: And from the just ideation stage, where you're just thinking about it all the way to the completion stage can take a short period of time, it can take a long period of time. It really is determinant on where you are at your point, at the point in which you are today. And every person is at a different point, and it can take people different amounts of time to be able to get to that education. This podcast is here to be able to help you in that journey. It is here to be able to help you learn about things that you can do to be successful in this process, whether it's applying, whether it's going through graduate school, whatever it may be. I love every week being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school before you, that can share their own experiences about what worked, maybe what didn't work as well as things that they learned along the way. And today, today we've got another great guest. Jackie Halligan is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: And Jacqui works at the University of Michigan Flint in the Human Resources office. And she has her own education journey that led her not only into professional work, but also to the University of Michigan ultimately over the last few years that she's been here. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with her today, to learn from her and to have you learn from her experiences as well. Jackie, thanks so much for being here.

Jackie Halligan [00:02:04]: I'm excited. Thank you, Chris, for the invitation. I appreciate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Well, it is definitely my pleasure and I'm excited to be able to talk to you today. And as I said, it is a journey that everyone goes on when they go and make a decision to go to graduate school. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University, you got a Bachelor of Arts in Employee Relations and then you went off, you worked for a little Bit of time there, there was a point, but there had to have been a point in time, whether it was during undergraduate work, whether it was during that, when you were working, where you said to yourself, I need to keep going. I need to get some more education to get to where I want to be. Can you bring me back in time and talk to me about that period, that point, and what was the spark that made you make that decision?

Jackie Halligan [00:02:55]: So if I go back actually to my undergraduate experience, I did two internships, one of which was at the city of Flint, actually in their labor relations department. And the director of labor relations at that time was getting his master's from Michigan State in labor relations. And his advice to me was that human resources is a very. Now, this was a while ago, but human resources is a very difficult field to break into. And that he felt it was important to get a master's degree to really be able to work in the field and have a good job. And he said to me, but once you get your master's degree, you'll be set, you'll have a great career, you'll do well for yourself. But it really is kind of like the, you know, the entry ticket, the golden ticket, as they call it, that to get a good start and get a good career in human resources. And so obviously, these number of years later, that's something that still resonates with me and certainly was a piece of the very important puzzle for me to consider graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:51]: I know that ultimately you made the decision to go back to Michigan State to get a master's degree in labor and industrial relations. And there are many programs that are out there. You could have selected any of those programs. So as you were working and just making those decisions about where you wanted to go, what you wanted to do to be able to make that next step. Talk to me about that decision making process for yourself and what made you ultimately decide that Michigan State was the place where you wanted to go?

Jackie Halligan [00:04:24]: So I was probably a little bit different than other people in high school. I knew what I wanted to do. Probably a senior. I mean, it wasn't like I was a freshman, but probably by when I was a senior and I was looking at programs, I actually came across what at the time was gmi, which is now Kettering, they had a labor relations program. And I was researching and reading about it and just that was it. Like it just clicked and it made sense. And so when I started to really think about going into undergrad and wanting to study labor relations or human resources at that Time there weren't a lot of HR programs that you could get a degree in. And Michigan State was actually one of the top, still is one of the top schools in the country.

Jackie Halligan [00:05:04]: You can get a human resources management or labor relations degree. And so I knew going into school, even as a freshman, that's what I was going to study. I, I've done it now for decades, quite frankly, I've never wavered from wanting to work in hr. So I just sort of did my research, found that Michigan State was one of the best universities at that time in the country to study this. And that's where I went.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:27]: Simple as that. And the thing that is interesting is I think that, as you said, you may be a little unique because not every student knows that they want to do human resources right from the get go as they go into college. And as you go through, through college, as you go through your undergrad, you move into your graduate degree, there is a different way in which you are educated, different expectations, different perspectives, different ways of learning. And you were successful in going through that graduate work and then going back out into the world after that and taking that knowledge into the workplace. Every individual has to find their path for themselves. They have to find the way in which that they can be successful in that transition, not only into graduate school, but through graduate school. So for you, as you think back to your graduate education, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you stepped into that graduate work, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate education journey?

Jackie Halligan [00:06:32]: I actually would go back to undergrad, which set me up for success, because when I was in high school, I used to be able to get my homework done and never have to like, crack a book or do homework, as they call it these days. And so in undergrad, I had to teach myself to study. I didn't know how to study. And I never been taught, never had to learn. And so in undergrad, learning how to study, how to read, how to focus, how to stay dedicated, how to set your priorities, know everything that's going on from your class perspective, and when tests are and papers are due, that probably set me up in the best way to succeed in graduate school was just the fundamental of knowing how to study. I tell my children I struggled in undergrad in trigonometry, I'd never had it. And I, for whatever reason, the professor and I just couldn't, like, I couldn't grasp his teaching. It just didn't work for me.

Jackie Halligan [00:07:23]: And I ended up Teaching myself trigonometry. I sat in the library for 13 hours at Michigan State, started on page one and taught myself trigonometry before the end of the semester. So just learning how to study, I think was important for me. But then I think about like in grad school specifically, and what were the factors that would help me succeed. While Michigan State is a obviously very large university and you get into those accounting classes in undergrad, you might have 200, 300 students. Graduate school, especially labor and industrial relations, is a relatively small school and they have about 100 students carrying on through the year. It's a one year program, or was at the time, and they would accept about 100 students each year. So it was a relatively small program.

Jackie Halligan [00:08:07]: So there you get to know the dean. And it was a graduate school. The undergrad was in social sciences. So this was dedicated grad school. So you get to know the dean, you get to know the professors, you develop very strong relationships with your co students, your peers in the courses, because you, quite frankly, you, you see the same students day in and day out. Many of you are in, you might be in the same class three or four times with, you know, multiple individuals. So I think for that, for me it was more the, the uniqueness or the style, kind of the small scale of the program, that sort of personalized approach where they knew you, you knew them. And so like if anything ever came up, you could go talk to the professor and he or she would listen and understand if you were facing a challenge and try to work with you.

Jackie Halligan [00:08:51]: So I think that for me was probably the most important key to success was that small scale.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:56]: I know that as you completed that degree, you went off, you worked in a number of different places over your career, you ended up here. As you think back to the education that you in your graduate degree, how do you find that you pull from that education on a daily basis?

Jackie Halligan [00:09:13]: So both of my degrees technically are from the College of Social Science. So I have a lot of background in psychology, sociology, economics. And so I think I've looked at my background. I've spent a lot of time in manufacturing, US based manufacturing companies. So a lot of time spent in employee relations and so that sort of more social focus and developing relationships, being transparent, communicating, you know what you can when you can. I have people tell me like, Jackie, you can talk to anybody. Like I can go out on the shop floor and I can talk to somebody. I can talk to the Chancellor here very comfortably at UFM Flint.

Jackie Halligan [00:09:50]: So I can kind of scale everybody and Talk to people in a manner that makes them hopefully feel comfortable. So I think for me it was more the social science part, an aspect of my degree that helped me connect with people and also be empathetic and understand when people are facing challenges. I actually had a peer of mine. This was literally like 20 plus years ago. I was leaving one company and going to another. And as I was leaving, one of my peers said, jackie, you from an HR perspective are the best person I've worked with to balance the company interest with the employee interests. And that's a fine line when you try to understand what's important to the employee and how can we help them succeed and have a great experience here. But also what is the company trying to achieve and how do you balance those two out? Because they're not always in parallel.

Jackie Halligan [00:10:38]: They're not working in harmony all the time. So how do you balance that, maybe even be conflicting interests and try to find that best solution? And so I think all of that from my degree and that kind of mindset of social sciences helped me pretty much throughout my career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:53]: As you think back to your graduate education and you think about the things that you had to do to find success, and you think about other students that are maybe thinking about graduate school, whether it's in human resources or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Jackie Halligan [00:11:17]: You know, one piece of advice that I give people is some people will talk about what I'll call chasing the money. Like, oh, I want to go study this because I'll earn, you know, good money and I'll make a good wage and I'll have a great way of life. And I always say, find your passion. Like, I've been doing human resources for 35 years and I just moved to Flint about. Back to Flint area about less than three years ago. And I really thought about, like, what do I want to do? It was an opportunity for me to do something different if I wanted to. And I actually took some time and reflected on it and I said, you know what? I still want to work in HR 30 plus years later. This is what I want to do.

Jackie Halligan [00:11:52]: So I think for me, the most important thing is find that passion. Find what you enjoy. That's going to get you up in the morning, get you excited. You're going to find it rewarding. Don't chase the paycheck. It's not worth it. So I think that's it. And I think, you know, going back to what I sort of said about, you know, Michigan State and the graduate school is do your research, you know, look at multiple options, look at multiple universities, look at their programs, go visit the campuses if you haven't done that yet, and find where you feel.

Jackie Halligan [00:12:20]: I hate to use the term home, but, you know, find where you feel most at home and where you can most likely succeed. Because pre grad and graduate school are hard, hard work and you want to make sure that you're setting yourself up for success. And I think finding the right fit from a program perspective is most important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:38]: Well, Jackie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I completely agree with you on that finding that right fit and being able to do what you have to do to be able to take that next step. So thank you for sharing all of that and I truly wish you all the best.

Jackie Halligan [00:12:55]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:57]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/GraduatePrograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the path to a graduate degree is a transformative journey, full of decisions, challenges, and opportunities for growth. In a recent episode of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Milanna Jones, a city council member for the City of Pontiac and a recent MBA graduate from the University of Michigan-Flint, to delve into what it really takes to succeed in graduate school and how it can shape your professional and personal life.

The Power of Purposeful Decision-Making

One of the core themes of Milanna’s story is purposeful decision-making. After completing her undergraduate degree, Milanna knew she wanted more than just academic credentials; she sought practical, strategic leadership skills to amplify her efforts in community leadership and nonprofit work. Her experience highlights the importance of understanding your “why” before taking the leap into grad school. Milanna emphasizes that taking time to reflect on what you hope to gain—beyond simply career advancement—can help clarify the right program and concentration for you.

Resilience and Prioritization

Milanna’s journey wasn’t without challenges. Just two years before starting her MBA, she faced a life-threatening medical event that led to a disability. Her story is a testament to the power of resilience and prioritization. Through deliberate time management—scheduling dedicated days for reading, assignments, collaboration, and, most importantly, self-care—she was able to thrive academically while navigating significant personal challenges. Her advice? “Prioritize yourself in this process, because you are the only thing that’s going to get you through this.”

Building Connections and Skills for Real-World Impact

The episode also explores how the right program can foster meaningful connections with peers and professors, both locally and nationwide. Milanna shares how her concentration in organizational leadership equipped her with vital skills in policy analysis, negotiation, and team motivation—skills she now uses daily in her role on city council and in nonprofit initiatives.

Looking Beyond the Finish Line

Finally, Milanna encourages prospective grad students to focus less on the distant goal of graduation and more on the growth that can happen each semester. By setting incremental goals and remaining open to new experiences and knowledge, you can maximize what you take away from your studies.

Milanna’s story is a powerful reminder that graduate school is about more than just earning a degree; it’s about shaping who you are and how you impact the world. Ready to be inspired? Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School and start your own journey with a fresh perspective.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School.

Milanna Jones [00:00:03]: Where we have conversations with students, alumni.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:06]: And experts about what it takes to.

Milanna Jones [00:00:08]: Find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week, every week. I love being on this journey with you, and I call it a journey. I know I do, every week. But it is truly a journey because no matter where you are, you're thinking about graduate school. Whether it's you're at the very beginning, you're just starting out that process where you're thinking for yourself, is this the right thing for you? Or you could be further along in the process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:40]: Maybe you applied, maybe you got accepted, you're getting ready to start graduate school. Or maybe you're in graduate school and you see that light at the end of the tunnel and you're figuring out what you're going to do next. Wherever you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences, different backgrounds that can share with you the journey that they went on as they got their own graduate degree. And today we got another great guest. Milanna Jones is with us, and Milanna Jones is a city council member for the city of Pontiac, and she just finished up her graduate degree, her MBA degree at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have her here to tell her own story and to share that with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: Milanna, thanks so much for being here today.

Milanna Jones [00:01:29]: Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis, for having me here. My name is Milanna Jones. I am currently the city councilwoman for District 2 of Pontiac, and I'm a recent graduate from University of Michigan, Flint. I received my MBA with a concentration in organizational leadership in August this year, August 2025.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: Always a good feeling when you get to walk across that stage and get to that light at the end of the tunnel. So one of the questions that I wanted to start with was really to take you back in time, because I know you did your undergraduate work at Purdue Global. And at some point during that period of time, as you were going through that undergraduate degree in business administration, you were involved, you did a lot of different things, and you saw that light at the end of the tunnel. But at some point within either your undergraduate degree or that time between your undergraduate degree and when you decided to start in graduate school, you made a decision for yourself, which Was that you wanted to take that step. Bring me back to that moment. What was going through your head and why did you decide that graduate school was the right step at that time?

Milanna Jones [00:02:37]: So going back to that moment, which would precisely be August 2022, as someone who was already heavily involved in community leadership, I was looking for the opportunity to really strengthen those leadership skills. I was heavily involved with nonprofit work, two different 501C3s to be specific. And I just knew that the MBA was the route that I wanted to go at that time. Although I had not taken the steps to pursue it. I wanted to the tools to lead more effectively, more proactively, strategically, rather than reactively, which is, you know, now reflecting, which is what I was doing at the bachelor level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:16]: You were thinking about that. You made that decision, you decided that you were going to take that next step. I know there was about a year between that August 2022 that you mentioned and when you decided to start it in August of 2023. So during that period of time, I'm sure you did your research. You. You had to figure out for yourself, what, what am I looking for in this process? What kind of program is going to be right for me? Is it right down the road? Is it further away? I mean, you did a global program. Is it going to be in Michigan? Is it going to be somewhere else? Walk me through that process for yourself. What was going through your head in regards to the things that were most important to you? Why were those the most important? And ultimately you decided to go to the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:00]: What made you finally decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Milanna Jones [00:04:05]: So during that year gap between my bachelor's and starting with U of M Flint, I did take a couple of graduate level courses with Purdue Global. At that time, I realized that I wanted to look for a program, potentially one that was more interactive, Something that helped me acquire the practical skills of working with other people and additional academic rigor. Which then brings us back to the question of why um Flint? Um Flint was the only school that I applied to. It was my first choice, my first preferred choice. And although I tell myself, don't put all your eggs in one basket, I was determined to pursue U of M Flint. I read the website word for word many times while I was constructing my statement of purpose, going through the application process, and soon going on to meet with my academic advisor who marveled over how much information I retained about the program and each specific concentration. I knew exactly which one fit the best based on the description online and based on my conversation with others who have been in the Wolverine family now, it's worth mentioning that previously I did attend University of Michigan Dearborn and my mother and both of my grandparents are all graduates from U of M. One went to U of M Dearborn and two went to U of M Ann Arbor.

Milanna Jones [00:05:28]: Which then brings us back to the question, why U of M Flint? For me, why am I the first to pursue this campus? And specifically it is because of the flexibility offered in the program and the high quality of academic rigor. There are many wonderful professors. There are two specific, in my mind that really pushed me outside of my comfort zone. While supporting me, I felt their commitment to really helping me learn and achieve the tools that I wanted in my personal life and in my professional experiences. So U of M Flint was, was initially my only choice. And now reflecting on this journey really solidifies why I gravitated there. That's where I was meant to be. That's where I connected most with the professors and with my peers.

Milanna Jones [00:06:15]: I've developed close relationships with colleagues in Michigan and out of the state just from being here and working with U of M Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:23]: Now, for every student that goes into graduate school there, there truly is a transition that they go through. There's a transition as into graduate school. A transition as you go through graduate school and you found success, you graduated like we just talked about this past year. And as you think back to this experience in coming into graduate school, going through graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

Milanna Jones [00:07:01]: It's interesting because of my unique experience entering the graduate program. When I started in 2023, I was just two years out from a life threatening medical tragedy. I spent months in the hospital. I am physically disabled. And it created a challenge engaging with other people while living in those circumstances. So what I needed to do to find success was really commit to prioritization and time management. And maybe other grad students say this as well, but I want to break it down specifically. So there were, there was some days where I just knew I had to focus on my own health and I couldn't look at any of the school related projects.

Milanna Jones [00:07:46]: There were some days that I knew I needed to dedicate to reading, reading through the material before I even glanced at the assignment. So what I did was I was intentional with my schedule. I reserved Sundays for rest, Mondays and Tuesdays, depending on how the Weeks go for the schools, a couple of days solely for reading, and then after that had to commit to the work itself. And collaborating with others was more so full time. I would say I even did that on Sundays, which became more fun as time went on. But I had to, you know, really dig deep within myself and focus on my own self health in order to achieve success in the UM MBA program. And that is really one of the biggest suggestions I would give to any incoming grad student. Aside from the work and aside from, you know, the stress and the deadlines, you really have to prioritize yourself in this process because you are the only thing that's going to get you through this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:43]: So you did complete your degree and you are now a graduate of the University of Michigan, Flint. You've got that MBA in hand. Now that you've completed that degree. How do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you're doing in city council, but also the next steps in other things that you're planning to do in nonprofit or other work in the future?

Milanna Jones [00:09:07]: Because I chose the organizational leadership concentration, the skills that I gained really most prepare me to do policy analysis and implement team motivation. I think that is worth mentioning twice. You know, emphasizing team motivation and implementing initiatives in a diverse community is one of the biggest takeaways that I have gotten from the U of M Flint MBA program. Specifically because those courses that really delve into negotiations and organizational behavior, those provide the real world skills and necessary knowledge to navigate any business transaction or potentially conflict in the community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:49]: As you look back at your graduate education and the experience that you had going through that graduate degree for yourself, and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be for an MBA or something else. What are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Milanna Jones [00:10:12]: I would actually suggest that they step away from their end result because I think oftentimes individuals focus on a career or they have a job that they are striving to advance to. And I think that line of thinking really limits what you can take away from this program. So upon entering, I would recommend for students to look at the next year. What do they want to build upon in the next year and what sequence of courses are they taking to help them get there. And that's how individuals can truly align their interests and their personal values with the different concentration that are available at U of M Flint. Because the classes that you take, they're going to provide you with those tools that you need to advance yourself to the next level, of course. But looking in the shorter term, I think will help students or any incoming graduate student attain success faster and more efficiently, because we are looking more at the immediate next level, the pathway that you need to take to advance yourself each year. And that's how by the end of the two years, you get to the point of you're now a graduate, you obtain these skills in all of these different sectors because you took it one step at a time, or even break it down to one semester at a time.

Milanna Jones [00:11:37]: What do you want to get better at by the end of the semester and then commit to that one goal at a time?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:43]: Well, Milanna, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for sharing this part of your journey. I know your journey's not over, but there's still time. There's still time and you'll be using this degree now for many years to come. But I truly want to say thank you for coming here today, for sharing these words of wisdom, and I wish you all the best.

Milanna Jones [00:12:03]: Thank you very much, Dr. Lewis. It was my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:05]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare today. Be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you considering grad school but feeling unsure about the process, the expectations, or even where to start? The latest episode of Victors in Grad School is a perfect listen for anyone navigating these questions. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis welcomes Shelby Newport, Program Director for the Arts Administration program at the University of Michigan-Flint, for a candid conversation about finding success—and fulfillment—through graduate education.

Shelby’s journey is a relatable one. She takes listeners back to her undergraduate days at Cornell College, where a mix of curiosity and an honest assessment of her skills led her to pursue further education. Recognizing that she needed more specialized training to reach her career goals in costume design, Shelby set her sights on an MFA—a common terminal degree in the arts. Her story of researching programs, attending the nerve-wracking (but rewarding) University and Resident Theater Association (URTA) interviews, and ultimately choosing Purdue for its supportive faculty and fit with her aspirations offers an inside look at the decision-making process for prospective grad students.

A central theme in the episode is that grad school is a journey—often challenging, always transformative, and rarely linear. Shelby opens up about the transition from undergrad to graduate student, emphasizing that the switch isn’t just academic; it’s personal, too. Learning to “dress the part” and step into the role of both student and teacher was part of her process, as was embracing the intense, focused workload that a graduate program demands.

Shelby’s advice for current and prospective students is refreshing in its honesty. She speaks about the importance of being open to change, both in yourself and in your career path. Sometimes, the direction you envision at the start isn’t where you’ll end up—and that’s not only okay, but often leads to unexpected opportunities and growth. Her own path led from regional theater work to a fulfilling career teaching and program direction, and her network—built by seizing opportunities and following her interests—has played a crucial role every step of the way.

For anyone considering grad school or already in the midst of it, this episode is packed with valuable insights. Shelby Newport’s story is a reminder that while the journey may be unpredictable, your openness, effort, and willingness to grow will serve you well. Tune in to hear her story—you’ll walk away inspired and a little more prepared for your own graduate school adventure.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School. Where we have conversations with students, alumni. And experts about what it takes to. Find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited that you're back again this week. As always, every week we are on a journey together. As you are looking at graduate school, thinking about graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school. No matter where you are, you are truly on a journey, because graduate school is a journey. It takes time, it takes effort, it takes some planning to not only get in, but get through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: And that's what this podcast is all about. It's to provide you with some of those tools that you need, those tools for your toolbox that will help you to be able to find success and sooner. And that's why every week I bring you different guests with different experiences, people that have gone to graduate school before you to share some of their own experiences and allow for you to be able to learn from the things that they learned along the way as well. This week, we've got another great guest. Shelby Newport is with us, and Shelby is the program director for the Arts Administration Program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to be able to have her here, to have her talk a little bit about her own experiences and learn from her. Shelby, thanks so much for being here here today.

Shelby Newport [00:01:26]: Yeah, thank you. This is exciting to talk about and remember my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:31]: Well, I'm really excited that you're here today, and it is a journey, and I think one of the things that I would love to do is kind of take you back in time because I know that you did your bachelor's degree at Cornell College and in theater in art, and then at some point during that time during your undergrad, you made a choice that you were going to continue on to get the mfa, and you did go and get an mfa. But bring me back to that point in your thinking and why you chose to go further and to go on.

Shelby Newport [00:02:03]: Yeah, that moment is really a specific moment for me. I mean, I can sort of put myself in the position. I was a work study student in the costume shop at Cornell College and learning skills. But Cornell College is a small, private liberal arts college in Iowa, and our faculty was relatively small, taught me so many things, and it was the best place for me, but I didn't have really specific training in costume design and construction. And so, you know, sitting there doing my Work study job, working on a production, thinking. I think it was basically the, the end of my junior year, my third year in school, I had gone away and worked in the summer at different summer professional companies. Colorado Shakespeare Festival for, for two summers in a RO was thinking about where do I want to move? What is next? What is the job that I want? And knowing that there was going to be a lot of jobs, but what was that next step? And I felt like I didn't have the skills I needed with only my one year left of undergrad to do the job. Like I was leaning towards Chicago and working professionally in theater.

Shelby Newport [00:03:14]: And so I needed more skills. And the mfa, the Master of Fine Arts, is a terminal degree in our arts field and it is a doing degree. So I knew that with intensive three years in a program that I would hopefully leave those three years with more skills than I had at that time. And of course, as it happens, during the journey, you find out other things about yourself and who you know, where you want to go and who you want to be. And I, I gained a lot of different skills that I couldn't have expected. So my path and the job I wanted to do changed during those three years. But I decided that I wanted to go right away and not take time off between undergrad and graduate school now.

Shelby Newport [00:03:53]: And you made the decision to go to Purdue. Purdue University. And there's a lot of MFA programs all across the country. And I'm sure you did some, some review, some research to try to determine for yourself what was the best program for you. Talk to me about that search process and what you had to do to come to that final conclusion of going to Purdue.

Shelby Newport [00:04:16]: Yeah, in the arts we have this, I think, somewhat unique organization called erda. The acronym is University and Resident Theater Association. And that organization run interviews and auditions for MFA programs, among other things, as a, as an organization and association of university programs. And so at that time they ran three interview dates where you went in person in New York, Chicago or San Francisco. You signed up for those and you set up a table, basically a booth for yourself, your portfolio and a board, maybe some samples of your work. And so I selected the New York one and my boyfriend at the time, my husband, now we drove to New York, New York from Iowa with my things and parked my Jetta in New York City and stayed in a fancy hotel, set up my booth and you set up your area, your table. Then you leave for four hours and then you come back and they give you a list of the grad schools that want to interview you. And then you have, I think it was 10 or 15 minutes with each of the school representatives that wanted to meet you.

Shelby Newport [00:05:22]: And then after that, I think you got a piece of paper that said, like, next step interviews with your next tier. And in our field, it's always like, oh, how many IRTA interviews did you get? Oh, how many did you get? And there's probably 40 school representatives at these. And they're the. Mostly the major programs. The really top tier MFA programs like Yale don't go to this. They don't need to recruit in that way. So it's that next tier of major universities. University of Iowa, Purdue, Florida has a great program.

Shelby Newport [00:05:56]: University of North Dakota, Montana. Like, those programs were all there and talking to you. So you're meeting someone, maybe the costume designer, maybe it's another designer, because all the design students are doing this at the same time. And it's a real fast speed dating moment of like, tell me about your program, I'll tell you about myself. Do we click? I don't know, is there chemistry? So I had a few really great ones. I think my number was nine. I think I had nine on my list of people who wanted to talk to me. So that's reasonable, right? And of that 9, 4 sort of showed real interest and, like, felt like a pretty good match.

Shelby Newport [00:06:32]: Purdue was in that and University of Wisconsin, Madison was in that group, and then University of Maryland was in that group. And I really liked the faculty that I met with. They seemed to like the direction that I was going, that had art and theater blended in it. I didn't. I wasn't a purist in my undergrad. And then Purdue actually offered, you know, you're driving back from New York to Iowa. If you want to stop in Indiana, we'll put you up and you can see the house or can see the university. We just built a new building.

Shelby Newport[00:07:00]: Come check it. And so the free room for the undergrad was a real draw. So we stopped there and checked it out, and the new building was a real draw. But my, the thing that really hooked me was the faculty member. And the faculty member, Joel Ebarb remains a good friend and mentor now, and he was the reason I selected that place. And he told me something on that day that I think really shaped my choice. And that is, do you think you want to be a Broadway designer or a film and television designer? And I said, no, I don't think I do. All right, well, then find a school that matches the kind of work you want to do.

Shelby Newport [00:07:35]: And Joel Worked in Chicago, he was a regional designer. He had a couple of international things to his name, but he was an academic and an educator. And he said, do you want to teach? I think so. And so find the school that does that. If you want to be a Broadway designer, go to New York and go to a school on the east coast, because those connections are going to do that for you. And so that really started to shape that next set of journey of months of like, what does this look like for me? And why is location of graduate school important? And I don't think I ever thought about that before.

Shelby Newport [00:08:05]: He said that you ultimately did choose to go to Purdue. They selected you, you selected them, got to that point. And any student that moves into a graduate program, there is going to be a transition. There's definitely a transition in the way that you're educated. There's a transition in the expectations of your faculty, the expectations that you put on yourself. You found success, you got through the program, you graduated, you got that mfa. So as you think back to those transitions that you went through going from undergrad into your mfa, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire journey?

Shelby Newport [00:08:53]: I mean, ultimately, yes, I was successful, but it was really hard. And it's a three year program. MFA's in different areas are in, are different lengths. So my husband also has an MFA and his was a two year intensive program. So they have different, they have different things, but mine was three years. But I think that middle zone, no matter how long your program is, that halfway point, is really the hardest moment. And when I think about lows of my program, it is that moment you're really questioning why you're doing this, who you are, what's going to come out on the other end. And at the end feels so far the success of what that, how that success is going to look.

Shelby Newport [00:09:31]: It seems so far away. So I think what I did to set myself up for success, I guess the things that come to mind because I was also becoming an adult, because I chose to go right from undergrad, I was relatively young and my partner and I, we decided to move to Indiana together. So we graduate from Cornell and we move to Indiana together. We have our first apartment, we're like figuring out how to be adults and make our own dinners and like be pay the bills, do life. So I think for me that setting up for success was just stepping into an adult. And that's what graduate School is going to be. And it's going to be different than undergrad. I'm going to step into this.

Shelby Newport [00:10:09]: I also had a graduate teaching assistantship, so I taught not my first semester, but the second semester and then continued to teach every semester a class. So that helped me become that different kind of student because I was teaching undergraduate students sewing, stage costuming and stage makeup classes. And I think that even though maybe I didn't feel like an adult all the time, like a real grownup, teaching that class helped me live into that reality. So. And as a costume designer, that clothes and dress. Dress for the job you want, right? That kind of philosophy or. I also really like the mantra of when you look good, you feel good. So I have really distinct memories in grad school of like, dressing for the part.

Shelby Newport [00:10:51]: Like I would, you know, I go and I feel adult and I'm ready to go. And I think that the, the, the biggest difference of the educational model for me was the intensity and the specificity of the kind of classes that you're taking, which I know for lots of different kind of graduate programs, but you've made a choice to move in, to funnel down into a more specific path. And had I maybe been a little bit more mentally prepared for that, that could have helped that second year intensity. I think, because you just have no break from the content that is this thing that you've selected. It's all that. You don't get to go to your anthropology class and switch your brain to something else. You gotta find other ways to relax and be an adult and stretch these other parts of your life. So anyways, lots of stories there about how I found, I think, but ultimately it was stepping into the role.

Shelby Newport [00:11:43]: And even when I didn't feel like it, dressing the part and being ready to learn and teach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:48]: Completely understand. Now, you finished up the mfa, and I know that that professor initially asked you, do you want to teach? And you got to the end of the mfa and you did decide to teach and talk to me about that because every student has to figure out for themselves what direction they want, want to go. And you could have gone to regional theater, you could have gone to national theater, you could have done many different things with that degree. You chose to continue on and you, you got a position here at the University of Michigan, Flint, and started teaching. But talk to me about that decision process for yourself.

Shelby Newport [00:12:28]: Yeah, so some, some was decided for me. So my partner at the time, you know, he was there with me three years working and kind of paying the bills. And so we decided that after that was his turn to pursue his mfa. So he went through a very different process of selecting an MFA program, but ultimately found Cranbrook Art Academy, which is in Bloomfield Hills, Michigan. And so that brought us to Michigan first. So we knew we were going to move here. And then my plan was to pay the bills and figure it out and decide what that looked like. So we moved to the area.

Shelby Newport [00:13:00]: I had sent out a lot of resumes, academic, applied for a lot of things, but not a ton of bites at that moment. And then once we were here, I said yes to a variety of jobs. I did a student film once I was in Detroit and the film industry in Detroit, in I guess this was 2009. There were lots of incentives for Michigan film companies to produce films in Michigan. So I jumped on quite a few of those when we first moved here on a gig basis. And then one of those CV letters that I had sent out earlier in the year. And that kind of network connection yielded a phone call that said, I'm the chair at University of Michigan, Flint, and I have one class that I need filled. And I heard that you moved here.

Shelby Newport [00:13:42]: And I think I got your resume, but I found you through another faculty member through an organization. We know each other. So he gave me your phone number. Do you want to come teach for us? And I was like, sure. And actually this was like three days after school had started because they didn't have an instructor, so can you teach next week? And so I was like, sure, let's figure this out. So I did my first year of teaching at University of Michigan, Fluent as a lecturer, one class in the fall. And then I taught four classes in the winter. And then they ran a search for a tenure stream faculty member.

Shelby Newport [00:14:12]: I think your original question is, like, how did I find that? But it felt right. Like, it felt like, oh, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be sharing this knowledge and being an exciting, interested again, like relatively young in my career. Dress the part and step in front of the classroom and teach some intro to Theater class to University of Michigan Flint student. And then each step of the way it was like, less. Let's cross that bridge when we get there. So I didn't worry too much about that tenure position. It kind of. I mean, luckily it found me and I was a good candidate for them.

Shelby Newport [00:14:45]: And I had that trial period. I didn't worry too much about tenure and getting that next step. I just said, like, if we're here, I'm going to do a good job. And I'M going to pursue regional work. And what would get me tenure at the University of Michigan? As if it's my job, right? Like if I'm. I'm going to. It is my job. So I'm going to move forward in that process as if we're going to stay here.

Shelby Newport [00:15:04]: And we didn't know what we were going to do then after that. But ultimately we've made Michigan our home and both of us have found creative communities that have allowed us to do both professional creative work. So I've made lots of connections over the last 15 years with professional regional companies that have then provided me that professional costume designer work and the teaching work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:25]: You've recently stepped into the role of director of the Arts Administration Master's degree program, which is a Rackham graduate degree here at the University of Michigan, Flint. For many years, you worked very closely with your undergraduate students and you still do. And now you're working with graduate students. Talk to me about that transition and what it's now like to not only be a director of a graduate program, but also in working with graduate students. What's that like? And what are you learning from that?

Shelby Newport [00:15:57]: This was an easy yes, as they say, to step into this role. I was really excited to think differently about this program after the past director had left the unit university. And the moment for me in my teaching journey and where I was at as a designer and a leader on our campus at University of Michigan. Flynn. I think it all pointed towards, yeah, let's grow this graduate program. And. And I think I'm the right person to do that. So I found lots of joy this last year in spending time meeting each of the graduate students.

Shelby Newport [00:16:28]: We have 22 students in that program right now, and I think I've probably had one on ones with all of them at least an hour, if not, you know, two or three over the who getting to know them and understanding how this program is serving them. Then I did a big curriculum revamp in the fall from those conversations, figuring out how we can shape this program for the future and make it serve a lot of different purposes for a lot of different arts administrators and using all that experience that I've had over the last 15 years, both in the classroom. But a lot of my network connections of the creative community around Michigan and the United States have. Has already yielded some great network connections for these students. And I think that goes back to what I said about why I chose my graduate program. You need to build a network for yourself in the community that you want to work and so my Midwest, Michigan, Indiana, Iowa, kind of, that works for me. That's who I am. That's where I'm designing.

Shelby Newport [00:17:27]: And I made a name for myself professionally in that way. And so I tell the students that same thing. Let's find you this network. And if you're kind of flip based, how do you want to branch that out to metro Detroit? And here's the people I can put you in touch with. And I think, lucky for me also, my husband, Mark Baker, who is a designer and furniture maker. His MFA is in 3D design. His museum work has actually really helped support other parts of the arts administration program. And our network as a pair and a creative couple in this area has actually really helped.

Shelby Newport [00:17:58]: And I have a couple students doing internships out in places that Mark's connections have helped helped me get those students connections. So I think the network connections has been the biggest growth. And I'm very excited for the students to continue to build those. And teaching the graduate students has been really rewarding too, I think as you teach undergrads over a cycle, you teach lower levels, you teach upper levels, you teach independent studies, and students change. The graduate students talk, talk differently. And I think it's a great, refreshing moment to make myself shift into a higher level vocabulary and teaching style and then go back and teach sewing to undergrads who are learning it for the very first time. So that has been a great challenge for me and I think brought a lot of happiness this year to back to teaching that maybe I didn't have in that cycle of who do I want to be now?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:56]: So you've worked with students in many different aspects. You've been a graduate student yourself. As you look back, either at your own graduate education or you are looking at the students that you're working with now as graduate students. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education, whether it be in the arts or some other area that would help them find success sooner?

Shelby Newport [00:19:18]: Openness comes to mind first. I think that specificity of selecting a graduate program and making that choice feels like, all right, I'm funneling in, this is what I'm going to do. And somehow if we can go into that with an openness to what the experience might yield success and network connections might come faster. Some of the students who have that really specific idea of how this degree is going to move them forward sometimes get stuck in that and miss opportunities or relationships that could also blossom into something else. I just had the really lovely opportunity to take graduates and undergraduates to Japan on a study abroad. And I had two of the arts administration graduate students with me and and three graduate students from the MBA and that master's program in business and organizational leadership. And their thought process and processing of an international experience was really great to witness. And I think all of them didn't necessarily expect to be in that international experience, but in advising and in conversations about what you want to do, it was like, oh yeah, I can fit this into my schedule.

Shelby Newport [00:20:28]: This makes sense. Let's align this with the curriculum and grab ahold of this opportunity. And so seeing them bloom from taking a hold of that opportunity, I guess, is just a picture of what I'm trying to say. Like, be open to things you didn't expect to happen and see what comes from that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:46]: Well, Shelby, I just want to say thank you for sharing your own journey today and for the ongoing journey that you're on, and I truly appreciate you sharing that today and I wish you all the best.

Shelby Newport [00:20:57]: Thank you so much, Chris. It was great to talk about it and hopefully there's some pieces that resonate with folks. I think this conversation is has yet again reminded me that once you pick a job, it's not your job for life. And we are all on a journey, right? So thanks for letting me relive mine a little bit.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:13]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit UM Flint. Edu Graduate Programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgrad officemflint. Eduardo.

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Considering graduate school or already deep in your studies? Navigating this journey can feel overwhelming—full of choices, challenges, and the constant pursuit of personal and professional growth. This week’s “Victors in Grad School” episode is a must-listen for anyone at any stage of that journey, as Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Cam McLeman, director of the Data Analytics program at University of Michigan-Flint, to share valuable insights that will resonate with students, alumni, and educators alike.

Dr. McLeman’s story is one many can relate to: a passionate undergraduate uncertain about career direction, he experimented with disciplines before returning to his true academic love—mathematics. His decision to pursue a PhD, driven by a thirst for deeper knowledge rather than a prescribed career path, will inspire those who view learning as a lifelong process. But his journey didn’t stop with earning that doctorate—transitioning into the realm of data analytics, Dr. McLeman demonstrates the power of adapting skills and embracing new opportunities as the landscape of higher education and industry evolves.

The conversation dives deep into practical wisdom for succeeding at the graduate level. Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies, Dr. McLeman notes, is much like moving from high school to college—you’re expected to take far more ownership of your pathway. The self-driven nature of graduate school requires not just academic diligence but also proactive organization, advocacy, and a willingness to push beyond comfort zones. Dr. McLeman highlights the importance of building connections: with faculty, with industry, and especially with peers who are further along the journey. “Don’t struggle in silence,” he urges, pointing to the wealth of support services campuses offer—from academic assistance to mental health and disability support. Success often hinges on reaching out and taking advantage of these resources before issues become overwhelming.

Perhaps the most compelling theme fro

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back again this week, every week. I love being able to bring you on this journey because it is a journey. You have made a choice. You've made a choice that either you're looking at graduate school, maybe you've applied to graduate school, maybe you got accepted to graduate school. No matter where you are, whether you're just applying, you're in graduate school or beyond, this is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: And you have definite things that you can learn to be able to prepare yourself not only to make the transition into graduate school, but things that you can do to be able to be even more successful as you go through that entire graduate school process. And that's why this show exists every week. I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can help you to be able to pick up some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to figure out some things that you might even be able to do right today. Or as you go further on, to help you in this journey. Today we got another great guest. Dr. Cam McLeman is here. And Cam is the director of our data analytics program here at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:25]: And he had his own graduate school journey that we're gonna be talking about today. Also works with graduate students, so he definitely has some perspectives on what it's like to work with the graduate students and what he's seen with them. So I'm really excited to have him here, and I am really looking forward to having this conversation today. Cam, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:01:44]: Thank you very much for having me, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: It is my pleasure. I am really excited to be able to talk to you today, to be able to delve a little bit deeper into your own journey and see what we can learn along the way. And I know you did your undergrad work at Harvey Mudd College and got a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics. And at some point during that time during your undergraduate work, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on with your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about kind of what you were thinking and what made you decide that you wanted to go on to graduate school.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:15]: Yeah, so I came into undergrad pretty confident that I wanted to do mathematics. In some capacity. I also had a passing interest in computer science and physics and engineering, but I knew that math had to be part of it. And as I travers my undergraduate degree, I dabbled in all of those things. I picked up a second major in computer science, and then I dropped that, decided it wasn't for me, and I picked up a second major in physics, and I dropped that and decided it wasn't for me. And every time I just came back to math, and that's what I found my passion in. And by the end of my undergraduate degree, it wasn't so much that I was chasing a specific career, it was just that I knew I was not done learning math. I couldn't choose not to keep going.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:02:57]: So. So grad school was in some sense just the natural continuation of my learning process at that moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:04]: So as you made that decision that you were going to keep learning, you wanted to keep going and continue your education, I'm sure you did some exploration, you did some research, you tried to figure out for yourself where was that next step. And ultimately, I know you made the choice to go to the University of Arizona to get a PhD in mathematics. Talk to me about that journey for yourself and what made you decide first, a PhD in mathematics. But also, what did you go through? What were some of the things that you were looking for? What made you ultimately end up choosing the University of Arizona over the many other PhD programs that are out there across the United States and beyond?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:03:44]: Yeah, that's a great question. And to be fair, it was not an easy discussion. The choices when you're graduating from an undergraduate institution, especially, I think in a STEM field, are pretty overwhelming. There are industry options and commercial options to consider. Those were not my particular, you know, appeal. That was wasn't what I was interested in. I was interested in doing more academics. So then you have the question of do you go for a Master's degree or a PhD degree if you want to keep going, and in mathematics, that the choice is a little bit different than in some fields in that a master's degree is something you would pick if you knew what career you wanted to go into, and it had a master's degree requirement to it.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:04:25]: Whereas a PhD degree is the academic degree. If you want to go for the full doctorate, knowing that along the way, you essentially pick up a master's degree. So for me, the choice was clear because I knew that if I needed to bail out at some point along the way, decided that the PhD wasn't for me, then most PhD programs give you that that exit ramp to exit with just a Master's degree just is not meant as pejoratively there, just earlier than the PhD and then sort of every stage in your academic career from there on, you are constrained by availability. So I probably applied to a dozen grad schools for my PhD program. That's out of a choice of several hundred. So this was finding the programs that appealed to me both geographically and in terms of what expertise their faculty had. And cost was a factor, the likelihood that they would be able to subsidize part of my education. And in the end, the University of Arizona offered the best total package there.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:05:33]: I had never been to Arizona. I did not know that it would reach 110 degrees some summers. That was a climate based struggle for me during my time there. But in terms of the quality of the faculty and the aid package they were able to offer me, that just rose above the rest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:52]: Now, as you make that transition and you go to graduate school, there is definitely a transition, because the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not going to be the same way that you're going to be taught as a graduate student. There's different expectations not only of your faculty, but also pressure that you put on yourself. Expectations that you have on yourself for the ultimate goal that you're working, working to attain. You found success, you ended up getting that PhD, getting that graduate degree. As you think back to that transition for yourself, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:06:37]: That's a great question. Let me start by a preliminary story, which is that in my role right now, I deal with a lot of the transition from high school students to undergraduate students, students telling them what to expect in their first year of undergrad. And what I tell them is that this will be a transition in the sense that there's not going to be people holding your hand through every step of this process. There's not going to be someone forcing you to come to class and telling you after you get done with your sports practice, you have to sit down for an hour and do your homework. Undergrad, you're much more responsible for setting your own schedule. That transition from high school to undergraduate is mirrored again in the transition from undergraduate to graduate. Here, not only do you have to come to class of your own volition and do your homework when you're supposed to, you need to also be in charge of managing your course selection and your advisor selection so that you're hitting your life goals. It is a matter of being much more self driven in terms of organization.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:07:36]: If you are not motivated to complete the degree, you're not going to do well in the degree. If you take the approach that all you have to do is sit through the classes and you'll come out the other side with a degree, you may get the degree, but you won't be on that success path for accelerating and whatever your post degree goals were. So I think to come back to your question of what measures to take to ensure success, it is about claiming that ownership of your journey. It is about making sure that at each step you're not blindly following what you think will be the easiest path to the degree, but rather deliberately choosing paths that might be harder if it means that at the end you'll be a better master of your subject.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: I mentioned at the beginning you're working with undergraduate students, but you're also working with graduate students now in a new data analytics program. And I guess I'm interested to dig a little deeper on what you've learned from students that you've been working with at the graduate level now versus the undergraduate level, either with what they've been challenged with or what you've had to work with them with as they've made that transition in and through graduate school.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:08:45]: Yeah, so our graduate program in data analytics is a very interesting case and perhaps a bit of a contrast to the story that I just told in that it is essentially always a terminal degree for students in that program, that it is very career focused, that students in that program tend to come out very well prepared for jobs and not typically with the intent of going on to get a PhD in data analytics. What I found from our students in our program is that they hit those hallmarks that I was just talking about. They come to this degree knowing what industry they want to go work in. And that's in part the design of the program. So just to give a very brief overview, the data analytics program is sort of half your courses skills based, getting computer science and math background to prepare you. Then the other half is discipline specific. If you want to go into healthcare admin, you take a bunch of courses in the College of Health Sciences learning about healthcare. If you want to go into business analytics, you take half your courses with the School of Management.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:09:44]: So students come into our program with a pretty good sense of which area of industry they want to go into. And then it is sort of my job as advisor to help match their career goals with the courses that they would take to get there. And sometimes, and I think the best students push back and say, actually in this field, which I might not know about personally, it's better to have this skill than this skill. So I was hoping I could take this class instead of this class, in which case that's absolutely fine. And we figured that out in the system.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:14]: You got your PhD in mathematics, you're still teaching in mathematics and working with mathematics students at the same time. You're now doing data analytics. Talk to me about that interplay and what made you maybe pivot a little bit or change a little bit in your direction and kind of the students that you're working with now at the graduate level?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:10:36]: Yeah, it was a career shift for me. It is happening in mathematics as a whole that we are finding increased application of mathematics in just about every field. Data analytics and data science being sort of the venue for using mathematics to solve problems everywhere. So I've already mentioned healthcare administration and business analytics. These are places where mathematics has not always had a strong foothold, but rather more business focused classes. And I think what we're seeing all across the globe is parts of industry recognizing that the management of data is increasingly important. And that is a nice segue to my math skills, because math is a critical component of data analytics, but it's not the only one. So what this program did that was somewhat revolutionary on campus was have these interdisciplinary courses that you could have a strong math core, but the degree is not about mathematics.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:11:30]: And so for me personally, it was a convenient place for me to use my mathematics skills, transition into a place where I could speak more intellectually, more intelligently about data analytics and data science. And also I've learned a lot about healthcare administration and business analytics in my role here, which is something I've never had training in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: Now, as you think back to your own graduate school journey, you think about the journeys of the graduate students that you're working with now. What are some tips that you might offer to other individuals thinking about graduate school, whether it be in mathematics, data analytics, or any other field that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:10]: Yeah, I will say my answer to this is to do the opposite of only going to your classes and sitting through lectures and doing homework. That is the most insular, I will say introverted approach, which is my default approach. So I sympathize with it. But the path to success is making contact with everyone you can. That means as you're thinking about your current degree and where you'd Go after, look at what industry is wanting. Look at the skills that your potential employers will want. Talk to your faculty. You'll get a sense of what they think it looks like to be successful in this field.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:12:43]: And maybe most importantly, talk to the people ahead of you in the program. If you're in a two year program, talk to the students who've already been there for a year. See what their struggles were, see what they wish they had known through their first year about navigating various systems and don't struggle in silence. Particularly in our degree and in our university as a whole, we have all sorts of support mechanisms. If you are struggling either academically or financially or personally or with a disability that you may have just noticed or went undiagnosed, do not keep that information to yourself. Find someone who can help. And here, and I think generally at most higher ed institutions, there are people there whose sole job is to help you with that. So be public, talk to people, figure out who can help and take advantage of those services.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:36]: Great advice and definitely something we've talked about on the show before is that advocacy that you have to have for yourself and you have to be willing to open up and ask for assistance. The piece that Cam mentioned about, even disability services, veterans services, you know, there are many different services that are on campus and sometimes you as a student may say to yourself that you don't want to say anything because you feel like you're going to be stigmatized. Don't do that. Step into it. Ask for the help up front. You might never use it, but at least you have the resource. You've made the contact. You're a known quantity and they are there if you need them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:16]: It doesn't mean that they're going to go out and out you to everybody on campus that they are going to do what you need to be able to be successful and they're not going to know how to help you if you don't advocate for yourself. So definitely make sure that you take advantage of that and ask for those things up front. And even as you're looking at schools, you can start asking those questions up front to be able to make sure that you have those things ready for yourself on day one or maybe it's your second term or beyond. It's when you need it. So great points. Thank you, Cam. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you for sharing your journey and for allowing others a little glimpse into what you experience, but also what you're currently experiencing with other students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:03]: And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Cam McLeman [00:15:05]: Thanks very much, Chris. I was glad to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:07]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the journey to graduate school can be both exhilarating and overwhelming. In the latest episode of the “Victors in Grad School” podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Dr. Juanita Tookes, Assistant Director for Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS) at the University of Michigan Flint, to talk about her winding—and deeply personal—path through higher education. This insightful conversation is packed with valuable lessons and encouragement for anyone considering, or already pursuing, advanced degrees.

Embrace Your Own Timeline

One of the most powerful themes of this episode is the importance of honoring your unique path. Dr. Tookes shares candidly about taking breaks between each of her degrees—underscoring that there is no "one-size-fits-all" trajectory through academia. She explains how these pauses allowed her to gain hands-on experience (and even chase a dream of being on America’s Next Top Model!) before returning to her studies with renewed clarity and purpose. Her story is a reminder that whether you go straight through or take time off, your educational journey is yours to define.

The Power of Real-World Experience

Dr. Tookes’ journey highlights the value of real-world experience in shaping academic and career choices. Her early work in a child and family services nonprofit exposed her to social work, therapy, and the complexities of family systems—experiences that informed her eventual focus on counseling psychology. She encourages prospective students to seek out professional experiences, talk with people in the field, and use those insights to refine their goals.

Overcoming Self-Doubt and Imposter Syndrome

Transitioning to graduate school can trigger self-doubt, especially for those who see themselves as “nontraditional” students. Dr. Tookes bravely discusses her own struggles with imposter syndrome and negative thinking, and shares how reframing her mindset, celebrating small wins, and building a strong support network helped her persevere. Her honesty will resonate with anyone who has ever questioned their abilities or belonged in a program.

Seeking Guidance and Paying It Forward

Finally, Dr. Tookes emphasizes connecting with advisers, mentors, and peers—not only for academic support but also for personal encouragement. Her journey eventually led her to help other doctoral students as an academic adviser, filling a gap in support she’d wished for in her own experience.

If you’ve ever wondered what success in graduate school really looks like, this episode is for you. Listen to Dr. Juanita Tookes and gain practical wisdom, heartfelt encouragement, and a fresh perspective on your own educational path.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, and really excited to have you back again this week as we are working together, as you're going through this path, this journey that you're on to consider graduate school, go to graduate school, whatever part you are in, it is a journey. I say that every week, but it is so true because for every person, that path, that journey is going to look a little bit different. It's gonna feel a little bit different. You're gonna have to work through the things that that you're challenged with as you're thinking about this and figuring it out if this is the right path for you. And that's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you to be able to demystify the graduate school process, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you in this journey. And I do that every week by introducing you to other people that have gone before you, that have gone to graduate school, that have learned some things along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: Maybe everything went perfectly well. I'm gonna guess to say it didn't all go perfectly, but that you learn along the way and you can learn from these individuals and put those tools in your toolbox to help you to maybe miss that stumbling block. But if not, start planning for it and prepare yourself so that as you hit that stumbling block, you have some tools, you have some resources to draw from that'll help you through that. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Doctor Juanita Tookes is with us, and Doctor Tookes is a the assistant director for the counseling and psychological services, or CAPS, program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate and master's degree both at Wayne State University and then went and got her doctorate degree at Oakland University. And we're gonna talk about that journey that she went on to learn a little bit more about that. I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Doctor Tuxt, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:17]: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. It's always an honor when I'm invited to share my experience. And, of course, I know my experience is individual to me, but I hope something I say can be helpful to someone. So thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:30]: Now, as I said, you did your undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And at some point during that degree in psychology, you made a decision. You made a choice. You decided that you were going to continue on and get that graduate degree. Can you bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head? What made you decide that you wanted to do that? Because I know that there was a little bit of time between the bachelor's and the master's as well.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:03]: Yes. So this is such a long time ago. So when I graduated with my undergrad degree in 02/2008, I knew that I wanted to go higher in education. I knew that. I knew that I wanted to be a doctor since I was nine years old. Now at that age, I didn't know that there were different kinds of doctors. I just knew that I wanted to be one. But there is the preview of what you wanna do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:29]: There is the product of what actually comes out of it. But then there's this middle part called the process. So after I graduated with my undergrad degree, I did not go straight into graduate school. My brain was gone at the end of of my undergrad experience. It took me five years to complete that because I did not go to school in the summer. So it took me a little bit longer. And I just wanted to be without school for a little bit. Like, it was very intellectually challenging.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: It took a lot of my time. It was it was a lot. I was proud of it. I was happy that I did it. But I realized, unlike some of my peers who went straight into grad programs, I wanted to take a break. So what ended up happening is I found out through the psych department about, an internship. It was an internship in a child and family service organization in Detroit, and I applied for that and got it. And so what I did is I did my year internship there, and I got hired on as a full time employee.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:30]: And I was doing data entry and analysis for this organization. And I actually was there for a few years. And so the way that I look at it is because sometimes I've heard people think that you just have I've heard both sides of this. So people think that it's bad to take breaks. You need to just go straight through. And it's not bad. I think that whether you take breaks or you go straight through, just make sure that you're making the decision that's best for you. It's not about what other people think.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:04:58]: It's about what's best for you. It was best for me because I got to get some hands on real life experience in the area that I said that I wanted to work in. I knew I wanted to be in the helping professions. I knew that I wanted to study psychology. And so being at a child and family service nonprofit organization allowed me to interact a lot with social workers and therapists. This organization mainly worked with teenagers, so I was able to understand some things about the judicial system in relation to in relation to several things. So drug use, abuse and misuse, family systems. We were working with adjudicated youth, so youth that were who had committed some offenses, and they had to go to the court to get those offenses rectified.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:48]: Really learning a lot from the social workers and understanding that area, even though that's not what I was going for. Social work really helped enhance my knowledge about resources in the community that can help families, which were was inclusive of therapy. So my decision to go into grad school after my break was it was kind of like an internal it was an internal thing. I was traveling for two years. I was pursuing interests outside of academics. At this time, I was trying to be America's next top model at this time. So I was traveling and, like, pursuing modeling, trying to get assigned to an agency. I was trying to beg Tyra Banks to let me on her show.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:28]: But at the end of a two year period, my dreams had not manifested at that point. And I said, okay. We have to make a decision. Either you're going to continue to pursue this or you're going to get that grad school application done and submitted. And I went with the latter, completed my application to grad school, and then got admitted there. And that's how I started my journey in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:51]: So in that learning that you went through, you as you said, you you worked with social workers, you saw psychologists, you worked with other individuals. And in those two years, you also had to do some other research. You had to determine what type of program you wanted to be in, what type of focus you wanted to focus on. And I know you ended up going back to Wayne State for a master of arts in counseling psychology. Talk to me about what made you, one, decide on specifically counseling psychology, where you could have done social work, you could have done some other type of psychology. What made you decide specifically on that and not other areas? And then conversely, what made you decide to go back to Wayne State versus another institution that might've had a similar program?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:38]: These are great questions. I'm very happy to share. And something you said before was very important. Remember when I said that I was nine and I knew that I wanted to be a doctor? Well, throughout this process, that idea got refined and specified more and more. So at the end of my undergraduate education, I realized that I really wanted to work with families. I really wanted, which is why I got that internship at the Child and Family Service Organization. As I went through that, I got fine tuned even more because then I had to think, you know, did did I want to work in the school setting? Did I want to work in the community setting? Did I want to work in a hospital? Like, what did I want to do? A lot of these things were still unclear. And this is something that my education was very, very and it was very helpful to me in helping me understand what specifically did I wanna do with a psych degree because there's so many things and so many areas that that you can work in and do.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:32]: And so I decided to go back to Wayne State because, honestly, I was not familiar with a lot of college programs. So going through my high school curriculum and even in undergrad, I was not really exposed to a lot of college information. I knew about Wayne State because I grew up, was born, grew up in Detroit, so I knew about Wayne State. But luckily and I I'm not gonna say luckily because it was actually a blessing. I was actually accepted to be a part of a trio program, which was the McNair Scholars Program. That was an amazing program that I was in in undergrad, and this program helped students who wanted to pursue doctoral studies. Now at this point, I knew that I wanted to go into doctoral studies. I just didn't know how.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:18]: But this program, in my undergraduate experience, it helped expose me to more college information than I probably would have had if I was not in this program. So, we took college tours, you know, out of state. We were able to work closely with faculty members and do undergrad research, but we were able to, at this time, the GRE was a requirement. So, we got to have tutoring with GRE instructors. We had mentorship. So this really helped me define more and more, seeing other professionals and understanding what the grad application process was like. It really opened my mind to other possibilities of what I wanted to do with my degree. So once I started getting this information, I had already had my eyes focused on Wayne State even with the information that I had gained through the McNair program.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:07]: And so I had gotten in, and I decided to then say I wanted to be a marriage and family therapist. So that is the program that I applied to. The curriculum had changed once I got admitted. So it changed from marriage and family therapy to counseling counseling psychology. And I said, okay. I'm pretty sure it's gonna be the same. I wasn't quite sure what to make of the change that was outside of me that had to do with the university. But when I look back on it in in hindsight, I'm appreciative that I did get the counseling psych degree because I am a counselor now, but I started off as a psych major.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:42]: So I'm actually dually educated and dually trained in both of those areas. They are not the same, but they have a lot of similarities. So psych has a lot to do with assessment and, really looking into things from the medical model of how to look at a person's problems and physical manifestation of symptoms. Counseling is not like that. Counseling is more open and encompassing of the human and the human experience, and it really discourages looking at people at from a medical, you know, viewpoint. I think both perspectives are helpful, and the fact that I am trained in both helps me have a very enhanced, lens when I am assessing a person's mental and emotional challenges whereas I have to diagnose and things like that. So it's interesting because once I apply for my PhD, that is when I had more knowledge about other programs that I could possibly do my doctorate at. So I didn't really have it for undergrad as far as going to other institutions.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:43]: I didn't really have it for my master's program because about time, I really understood that I could be at other places I was already admitted. So I stuck stuck with Wayne State, which was wonderful. It was a wonderful educational journey being at Wayne State. But what the grad program at Wayne State helped me to realize is that there was reasons why I didn't wanna do social work. I worked with a lot of social workers, and then I thought that the work was great, but I realized just the nuances in the helping professions. There's a difference between a psychologist, between a counselor, between a social worker. Again, a lot of similarities, but I didn't think that I wanted to work so much in the community And being that I call social workers community connectors because they know everything about what is in the community to help somebody overcome an obstacle or a problem. There are clinical tracks with social work to where they can do therapy as well.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:35]: But I just knew for me that I did not want to do the community kind of component of the helping professions. But it's interesting, though, because even in my learning experience, I did community mental health. So even though I wasn't a social worker, I still worked out in the community doing in home therapy. I did that for a couple of years working with a behavioral clinic. And so that further defined what did I wanna do and what did I not wanna do. And I realized that working in community mental health is was something that as somebody who is trying to be a psychologist, somebody who's trying to be a counselor, at that time, I was still going for my psych license. I didn't wanna do in home therapy. I also had an internship at Detroit Medical Center during my experience.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:22]: And even though I really liked working in the hospital, I wasn't quite sure that I wanted that wasn't a fit for me either. So even though I didn't know what I wanted to do, my experiences through grad school helped me understand what I did not want to do, which I think is equally as helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: That is helpful. And I think a lot of times that that's what you have to do is you have to whittle it down. And sometimes you don't know. And but luckily, as you go through a graduate program, that hopefully you've done your research going in and that it has at least the initial building blocks. But then as you go through even further, you are able to hyperfocus and and identify even more so what as a part of, let's say, counseling psychology, what do you wanna do in counseling psychology, and what don't you wanna do? Because there's a lot of facets within that as well. Now I mentioned that you ultimately ended up going and getting that doctor degree, became a doctor. You got your doctor of philosophy, your PhD in counseling education and supervision. And, again, with that degree, you went to Oakland University, and you chose to go in that direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:31]: There were a couple of years between the master's and the doctorate, similar to what we saw from the undergrad to the master's. So talk to me about that and the same decision making process. What made you decide Oakland university? And, decision making process. What made you decide Oakland University and what made you decide that at that time when you started in 2016, what, why was that the right time?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:53]: As you pointed out, I have taken breaks in between every degree and something that I want everyone who's listening to this to understand is your path is your path. It doesn't have to look like anyone else's path. If you have to stop and take a break for whatever reason, either you have to or you want to and then jump back into it later, whether you go straight through, whether you change, you know, maybe you switch, you know, your focus, you know, your area of focus, your major, area of study, like, it's okay. Like, this is all a part of you discovering who you are and understanding what you wanna do in this world. So it's completely okay. I noticed that when I took breaks between my undergrad and grad degree, there was a lot of things that I just didn't understand and I didn't know. And and that's understandable. You know, you're growing, you're learning, you're being exposed to more.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:42]: As we know, with undergrad degree, it's pretty well encompassing. You're being, you know, well rounded and exposed to a whole bunch of different, you know, educational areas versus grad school where it's more honed in on a specific focus and area. Between my master's and doctorate degree, I definitely had a better understanding of what I wanted to do, but it wasn't complete yet. But it was definitely more specified than before. So what really encouraged me to apply for my doctorate was I wasn't happy with my with my job at the time. I was working in community mental health. This is when I was doing in home therapy. There at that time, there was not a lot of money in community mental health, so I wasn't getting paid a lot.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:24]: And, again, another something I wanna clarify is you don't want money to be the driving force as to why you are pursuing something. But two things can be true. Money is important. Money is important, but it shouldn't be the driving force or the primary reason why you go out for something. Developmentally disabled population, mainly individuals on the autism spectrum.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: And I would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand what they're doing. And I

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:58]: would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand what they're doing. And I would go into And I would go into people's homes and help caregivers understand the behaviors, of their loved one who was on the spectrum. And this ranged from individuals who were nonverbal to individuals who were high functioning. That was very challenging work. It was very challenging work It was very challenging work working with family systems, people not quite understanding the role of a therapist coming into your home. A lot of times I was looked at as maybe a babysitter where the caregivers did not want to be involved in the process. And so a part of this is educating the family or the caregiver on what the therapist's role is, what the goals are for their loved one, and developing a plan of treatment that can hopefully achieve some developmental goals for the person that I'm working with. But when you are working with someone who's nonverbal, a lot of times communication is through behavior.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:50]: And so I would work with work a lot with behavior modification, working very closely with behavior techs and, you know, things like that. And it was just challenging work. And I remember my clinical supervisor at the time because I had a temporary license. I had to get supervised. And I remember him coming in one day, and he looked just so carefree and happy. And I just asked him randomly. I said, what do you do? Why are you so happy? I don't know what kind of day I was having that day. But I just said, how can I get to a place where I'm happy like that when I come to work? And he said, well, maybe you should think about getting a doctorate.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:18:26]: You know, with a doctorate, you have very you have you have creative ability. You can do so many things. You can control kind of how you work and where do you wanna work and things like that. And, again, remember, I told you, like, when I was nine, I knew I wanted to be a doctor. But going through the process, it kind of took me away from that because the process will make you sometimes forget. Sometimes the process will make you discouraged. Sometimes other things will get in the way, and what you initially saw in that preview gets pushed back further and further. And so this question that I was asked brought what was in the back up to the front, and I was like, you know what? Yeah.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:06]: You know, let me apply because I want to be in a position where I have less limitations. I wanna be in a position where I have more power to make changes and really do things. And so that's when the application process started in 2016, and I applied for more schools because I had more knowledge of more programs in other areas. I applied to about four schools that were out of the state, including Oakland University that was in state. And to my devastation, I got rejected out of them all. All of them. When the first rejection came in, I'm like, okay. You know, I got a couple more coming.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:43]: The second one came in. I'm like, okay. I got I got three more coming. But then when it got down to that last one, I'll never forget it because I asked my my friend at the time. I said, oh, I have the letter from I think it was from Oakland. And I said, turn on the camera. Turn on the camera. And I could already see through the paper once I opened the envelope that there were two sentences on the paper, and I knew what that could mean.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:07]: I regret to inform you. I I had already seen that sentence so many times that I already knew that's what it said. The camera was still rolling, and my friend captured my devastation when I read, I regret to inform you. I didn't even read the rest of the letter because I didn't have to. But I'm glad I recorded that moment because I applied again the next year and got in to Oakland. I had only applied to two schools, Western and Oakland. And I got into Oakland, and that's when my journey had started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:35]: And sometimes you do have to be persevered. You have to persevere through the points that sometimes are not always easy. You may not get in the first time that you apply, and that's okay. You have to keep pushing forward and try again. I I we've said this before, and I'll say it again. You definitely don't wanna put only your eggs in one basket because programs are only so large, and they can only accept so many students per year. So it is important to cast the net, a wide net, to allow for you to be able to be considered. You can still have your your top choices, and you can still pick and choose from that top net, that top list, but you don't want to only apply to that one that you really want to get into.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:23]: And then unfortunately, maybe not get in. And then as Doctor. Tuuk said, the devastation hits and you have to kind of pick yourself back up, push forward and try again. And that's okay. Now you did find success at all of these different levels. You pushed through, you got through, you got your different degrees. As you transition though into each of these different programs, there's different things that you have to do to be successful in the programs that you choose to go into. And the education is different.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:56]: The expectations are different. As you think back to the master's degree, to the doctor degree that you did go through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into these programs? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of the programs?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:17]: These are wonderful questions, I might say. First of all, I had to make sure that I checked my mindset because that was really the first obstacle that I was aware of every time I entered into a program. So when I entered into my graduate program, the first negative thought that I had was, wow. I've been out of school for a while. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep up. I haven't been in a classroom in a couple of years. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep up. This is the same thought that I had when I went into my doctorate program because I guess I would have been labeled, which I don't use this label with students, but nontraditional student.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:52]: So when I started my doctorate program, I was 31 years old. Everyone in my cohort, which was very small, it was only three three other people, they were in, like, their twenties, like, maybe earlier to mid twenties. And I'm like, wow. And they went everyone in my cohort went straight through. I was the only one who took a break and was working in the field. So I thought, wow. I must be at a disadvantage because they went straight through. You know, I they're book sharp, more book sharp than me.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:19]: You know, I'm probably not gonna keep up. And, again, I had that same thought of, I've been out of the classroom for a couple of years. I'm older, you know, than everyone else. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to really keep up with these individuals. So but what I what I did very quickly, more so quickly in my doctorate experience than my master's experience, is I said, okay, you're different. You know, what are the rewards of being different? Well, you worked out in the field, which means that all that's going to happen now is a label is going to be put on what you were already doing out in the field to help you understand exactly what you were doing. So you were using a particular approach, you know, of therapy when you were working at the behavioral clinic, when you were working in the hospital, when you were working in the hospital, when you were working in community mental health. Now you're going to understand everything about that theoretic philosophy and approach, just more fine detail to what you were already doing.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:11]: You don't necessarily have to learn things from scratch because you were actually out here doing it. You may not have known exactly what to call it, or you may not have known that there was a theoretical orientation to the depths that you're learning it now. But this is actually what you were doing. So it's actually a benefit that you were out in the field. But there's again, there's also benefits for people who have went straight through. These individuals were more updated on research and other developments in the field. I wasn't really reading articles during my breaks, so I was a little bit behind. But that's why I also had to remember the competitiveness is over.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:48]: You got into the program. Now you wanna work with these individuals. So whatever you are a little deficient in, how about you work with your peers so that you can get up to speed on the latest research or conferences, things that you weren't doing, you know, when you were out in the field and vice versa? Because they could also learn from me because I've actually seen it. I've had clients before. I've worked in the community. I've worked in the office. So I can kind of tell them this is kind of what it looks like out here. And so I would say checking my mindset was number one because imposter syndrome, I I would put those two things together.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:22]: Oh goodness. People are gonna find out and we've talked about this before, doctor Lewis, about imposter syndrome and how all of these negative even though I got in the program, it's very competitive. And let me say too, when I said that I got did not get into Oakland, I automatically assumed it was because I wasn't smart enough. I didn't find out until after I was admitted that they were doing a curriculum change, and they didn't admit anyone the year that I applied. So but I was already telling myself, see, you're not smart enough to get a doctorate degree. That's why you didn't get in. And so imposter syndrome set in very heavily. And even after I got admitted, it tried to creep back in, and I had to I framed my acceptance letter, put it on my wall so that if imposter syndrome ever tried to creep up again, I could look at that letter and say, obviously, you're capable because you got in here.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:10]: So I would say what kept me in is checking my mindset, but also continuing to reframe negative perspectives, being aware of when I'm engaging in negative thinking, and having something set up for myself like a visual reminder of my potential, that can be a direct counteragent to anything that is going to threaten or impede my academic success. I would also say knowing who your supports are. You can only support yourself so much when you are going through grad school, going for your master's, going for your doctorate. It is a rough road. If you think you can make it by yourself, I would say that is not true. Whether it be a professor who you bonded with or an advisor or a mentor or your peers or your family, your significant other, but even your kids. Like, you wanna make sure that you have sources of support so that when you can't generate that confidence within yourself, when you can't reframe your own perspective, you know a lifeline that you can reach out to to help you reframe it. I know my cousin was a lifeline.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:14]: When I told her that I was about to quit my doctorate program, she said, but you only have so much left. Like, you can't quit now. Like, you're almost done. If it wasn't for those little cheerleading moments and even those those moments of stern truth about you can't throw this all away. You've worked way too hard. I don't think I could have generated enough energy or enough support or enough cheerleading for myself to actually make it through. So those are and of course, there's other things too. But I think your mindset, how you continue to evaluate that mindset throughout the process, and knowing your supports on campus and in your personal life are just a few of the important things that can help keep you on the track of success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:55]: And I appreciate you sharing that because I think I do agree with you on those things. Now, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, thinking about possibly taking that leap and going that next step, no matter if it was in psychology or in computer science or whatever area that they decided to go into, What are some other tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:24]: I would say one thing that I found pretty helpful I did not do this earlier in my educational journey, but I did do it more actually, I did it a little bit later. If there's an area that you wanna go into, see if you can find somebody who works in that area or somebody who knows somebody that works in that area that could give you a realistic perspective about what does it feel like to be in this job. As we talked about, the vision of what I was going to do with my doctorate became clearer and clearer as I went throughout this process. And when I was in my doctorate program, I thought for sure I was going to be a full time faculty. Just teaching about mental health and counselor education, like, educating counselors on how to be counselors. I thought that was what I was gonna do. I had an unexpected pivot where I saw a gap, and I wanted to see how I could fill it. And I knew I could use my degree to do it.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:14]: So I actually pivoted from mental health to higher education, and I wanted to see how I could apply my counseling skill set, my psychology skill set into higher education, but not necessarily as a counselor. I didn't wanna do that, and I also not at that time. And I also didn't want to be a faculty. So I'm like, what am I gonna do in higher ed? I know I wanna go there, but what am I gonna do? So, see, there's still question marks. Am I and I'm all the way two and a half years in to a doc program, and things are still unclear. But I realized that advising was a resource that I did not really utilize throughout my educational journey, not in undergrad, not at the master's level, not even really at the doctorate level either. And I realized that there was a huge gap between doctoral students and advising support, specifically with doc students. And so I'm like, I want to see if I can change that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:12]: I wanna give doc students support academically because it's hard. And I was out here doing it by myself, and I'm like, I don't want any other doc student to feel like they're doing it by themselves. And so I'm like, what is a position where I can learn a lot about higher education and provide this academic support, academic advising. So the first thing that I did was I asked around. Because I went to Wayne State, I just looked at kind of like the advisers at Wayne State. I also had a good friend who was attending at Wayne State who knew someone who worked in advising. She connected me with him, and I talked with him about what is it like to be an advisor. We talked about the pay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:50]: We talked about the challenges. We talked about the wins. We talked about the trajectory. And so that gave me I talked to two people who worked in that field already, and I said, I wanna pursue this. I wanna go in and I wanna pursue this. So I applied for an advising position, and I got hired as an academic advisor for Michigan Osteopathic Medicine, where I specifically was working with doctorate students. At that point, I didn't care what the doctorate was in. Could have been in anything.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:18]: I just knew that I wanted to provide academic support to doc students, and I was able to do that for two and a half years, and it gave me exactly what I needed to further understand what the next step was. The next step after that, now that I had learned so much about higher education administration, policy, curriculum development, how to handle student issues. And, like, these are all things that I had to learn before the next step was revealed. And the next step was pursuing a leadership position in higher education, which led me to apply for the assistant director position of CAPS here at U of M Flint. So that's where my journey led me, and this is where I'm here today where I am today, rather.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:59]: Well, doctor Tookes, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your own journey, for sharing that with us today, and all the advice that you were able to offer in regards to the journey that you did go on, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:14]: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you thinking about graduate school, but worried about a few bumps in your academic or personal past? This week’s episode of "Victors in Grad School," hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, is one you can’t afford to miss. Joined by legal experts Susan Stone and Kristina Supler, co-chairs of KJK's Student & Athlete Defense and Title IX Practice Group, the conversation centers around one of the most overlooked—but crucial—aspects of grad school admissions: how to handle disclosures of disciplinary or legal issues, and how to demonstrate personal growth.

Facing the Application Questions Head-On

Many prospective grad students feel anxiety when applications prompt disclosure of past academic or criminal incidents. Susan and Kristina stress the importance of honesty—reading each prompt carefully and responding truthfully, without oversharing. As Susan puts it, "Answer the prompt, but you don’t have to gut yourself." If more information is needed, universities will ask. Ultimately, omitting required information can be far worse than taking ownership of a past mistake.

Lessons in Reflection and Preparedness

The episode delves into the power of self-reflection—not just when answering tough application questions, but also when making decisions about when and why to pursue graduate school. Both Susan and Kristina share insights from their own paths and from those of Susan’s children, who benefited from working and reflecting before diving into advanced studies. That pause, they say, can help students make more thoughtful—and ultimately more successful—academic choices.

Law School, AI, and the Changing Landscape

The advent of AI tools has streamlined research and writing, but Susan and Kristina caution against letting technology replace critical thinking and big-picture analysis, especially for those considering law as a career. Law school, they emphasize, is about so much more than memorization: it’s mental chess, requiring creativity, analysis, and adaptability.

Growth, Redemption, and Moving Forward

Perhaps the most compelling message of the episode is one of hope. A mistake in your past doesn’t define you forever—what matters is how you move forward. Take steps to show growth connected to the issue, stay out of trouble, and be ready to talk authentically about your journey. Colleges and licensing boards are often open to stories of redemption and resilience.

If you’re plotting your path to graduate school—or helping someone who is—this episode is packed with practical advice, honest reflections, and encouraging reminders that your journey, no matter how winding, can still lead to success.

Tune in to hear more insights from Susan Stone and Kristina Supler—and take your grad school journey with confidence!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited that you're back with us this week. And every week we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it truly is. No matter if you're going to business school, law school, med school, doesn't matter, you have made a decision that you want to go to graduate school and no matter where you're gonna be going, it's going to take time, it's gonna take effort, it's gonna take perseverance to get through. And I'm not saying that to scare you away. I'm telling you that because there are things that you can do right now and things that you can do as you go through graduate school to prepare you for that journey that you're going to be on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: And that's why this show exists. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that can give you some different resources and some some hints, some tips, some things to put in your own toolbox to help you on that journey. And today, we've got two great guests with us. Susan Stone and Christina Supler are with us, and they are the co chairs of KJK's Student and Athlete Defense Title IX Practice Group. This is a group that's dedicated to support students in crisis and addressing their legal needs. And this is a topic that we haven't really talked about. We haven't talked about as you're going into applying to graduate school, many times on the application, you're going to see questions that'll ask you if you've had any criminal charges that you've had in the past, and you have to disclose those things to be able to be able to apply. And sometimes that scares people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:57]: And we'll talk about some of that today. And we'll also talk about Susan and Christina's own journey in going to graduate school themselves. But I'm really excited to have Susan and Christina here. Susan, Christina, thanks so much for being here today.

Susan Stone [00:02:12]: Thanks for having us.

Kristina Supler [00:02:14]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. As I said, we haven't really talked about this topic before. But before we jump into that topic, on the legal side, I love getting to know both of you a little bit more in regards to the journey that you went on because both of you are lawyers and you went through graduate school. And I guess for you, as you were considering and thinking, take me back to that point where you said to yourself, I wanna go to graduate school. What was the reason and what made you to make that decision that you wanted to take that next step?

Kristina Supler [00:02:48]: Well, I am one of those bizarre, peculiar people who, as a child, knew exactly what I wanted to do, and then I actually did it. So your question, Chris, takes me back to my childhood. I think about being a student in fourth grade at Notre Dame Elementary School, and we had a career project. We had to do a report on what do you wanna be when you grow up. And I said, mom, dad, I wanna be a lawyer. And so my mother connected me with a real estate lawyer, which is kind of funny because, of course, I don't do anything in that realm. But did a project, did some interviews, learned more about what it is to be a lawyer. And fast forward, went through undergrad at Boston University where I obtained a degree in European history, highly useful, drawn my degree every day in my life, and then ultimately obtained my law degree from Cleveland Marshall College of Law.

Kristina Supler [00:03:39]: So I love what I do, and I'm happy to be here today to talk about what we do. What about you, Susan?

Susan Stone [00:03:44]: I'm gonna be a lawyer and answer but not answer, Chris, because I am attending my daughter's graduation from Wharton where she's getting her MBA, and I also have a son at MBA school at Cornell. I am reflecting because it's graduation time on the choices they made versus the choice I made and what advice I would give to people. I also have the same story as Christina, so I won't bore you with that. Always wanted to be a lawyer, went straight through. But I see through my two adult children that both of them took time after undergrad and worked and reflected before they went into graduate school, and I really think that was the smarter decision. It is every parent's hope that we raise kids smarter than ourselves, and I achieved that goal because while I love being a lawyer, I love it because I created a niche that worked for me. But if given a couple years to muse and think, maybe I would have considered other options. I was just so strong in the narrative that I should be a lawyer.

Susan Stone [00:04:54]: Whereas I see that my children took more time, worked a little, asked a lot more questions, and took a different path than what they thought. So my daughter, who's getting her MBA in health care consulting, originally wanted to be a doctor. My son, who graduated with a degree in finance, mused for a couple years while he worked, do I want to be a lawyer? Do I want to be a doctor? Do I want to be a candlestick maker? He's going into investment banking. So I recommend you do a little work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:27]: Great points. And definitely, I've seen students that do that. And it's you do have to do your research, you do have to do that self reflection to be able to get there. And speaking of self reflection, both of you chose different law schools in in the paths that you chose. And there are many different law schools that are out there. Now the interesting part is that you both were in Ohio, not too far from each other, and you went to law schools in that same region. But I guess talk to me about that decision making process for yourselves and how you ultimately came to the decision of the law schools that you chose to attend.

Kristina Supler [00:06:05]: Susan, why don't you go ahead?

Susan Stone [00:06:07]: Well, I was engaged and I knew that we were coming back to Cleveland. Case Western gave me a scholarship, and it was a wonderful education. And that really is not that exciting of a story. I wish I had more. I think that, again, with a little reflection, a little maturity, maybe I would have explored differently. Again, I look at my married daughter graduating from graduate school. She got married and then made the decision to go to a different city for her MBA program from her husband and the time flew, that wasn't in my world view decades ago.

Kristina Supler [00:06:48]: And, Chris, my situation is not unlike what Susan described. I was away living my best life in Boston, but I came back for my hometown, honey, my now husband. And and really the choice was simple. It came down to scholarship dollars. You know, I was putting myself through law school. And when you look at through through the lens of, you know, who's giving me the best scholarship award, that it was an easy choice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:12]: And I've said this before, but law school is expensive. I I worked at a law school for ten years. I know how much debt that people can come out. So you do have to look at all those factors as you're making your decisions because in the end you have to pay that back. So it is important to understand that. Now both of you were successful in going through law school. You got through, you got through the bar, you did all of those things. As you transitioned into law school and went through law school, there are definite things that you have to learn along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:47]: Going to law school is very different than any other type of education than you would have had in the past and you probably will ever see in the future. But that in mind, what did you have to do as you transitioned in and through law school that helped set you up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your law school experience?

Susan Stone [00:08:08]: I'm gonna praise my law partner, and I'm gonna guess because I didn't go to law school with her. We are different generations that went to different law schools, but Christina Soupler is an outstanding writer. I read her writing every day. So first and foremost, Christina, wouldn't you agree? And the reason I'm not having you answer it because I know you are too far far too humble to tell the truth, but it's writing skills.

Kristina Supler [00:08:34]: Certainly. Being a lawyer, writing is is essential. To build off of Susan's point, back it up even a little bit further than that. And this is believe it or not, Chris, it's conversations Susan and I are having with colleagues and peers on on a daily basis. The big a what's the big a? Analysis, analysis, analysis. So I I came into law school thinking, oh, I have such good study skills. I know how to read and memorize and I'm gonna show up for my exam having put in countless hours. I'm gonna be ready to nail it.

Kristina Supler [00:09:07]: Oh, wait. That's only part of being a lawyer. The other part and arguably the more essential part of being a talented lawyer is being able to engage in critical analysis. So wrestling with facts, running those facts through different lenses, figuring out how can I twist and turn these facts to obtain the goal that my client is seeking? And that is no matter what your other talents and skills are, a lawyer, successful lawyer, must be

Susan Stone [00:09:37]: able to engage in critical analysis. I wanna bootstrap what Christina said because you've kinda touched on a little nerve.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:44]: I was

Kristina Supler [00:09:44]: gonna say, did I touch a nerve, Susan?

Susan Stone [00:09:46]: Well, you did touch a nerve and it's a nerve we share, so I'm not gonna disagree. The blessing of AI is that everything comes at your fingertips, and legal research is so different today. You literally put in what you want and the computer spits it out. The problem is it short circuits the ability to really think through a problem and be creative. And what I don't see anymore in the talent that's coming in is what I call big picture thinking and out of the box thinking. And that only comes with sitting in a space of discomfort, reading different ideas, maybe those that are not even perfectly matched to your query that you put in a computer, and tapping into creativity. I see a lot of written work where I ask a question, it spits it out, and that they think is the answer, and they can't play mental chess. Being a lawyer is just mental chess, and I don't know how we fix that with the technology that's emerging.

Susan Stone [00:10:59]: We're hearing that people can use AI to write their briefs and do their legal research, but what AI can't do is set up a case, tell you your next move. And I'm at a loss, Chris. Breach. Double breach.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:13]: It's definitely hard. Yeah. It's definitely hard. I you know, more and more, we're seeing students that use AI for different parts of their application, and it becomes easier and easier to see when you're getting applications from certain countries and letters look the same or statements look the same. And but I definitely hear you. I've worked I've worked with plenty of lawyers and students that wanted to be lawyers and know how and students that wanted to be lawyers and know how much analysis went into the courses that they went through. And that was before AI in the version that it currently exists. So I can only imagine the challenges that law schools are having to deal with right now.

Kristina Supler [00:11:52]: Chris, your comments making me think about our own practice and the work Susan and I do daily with our students. We represent a lot of students in academic integrity cases. And in this day and age, let's face it, most of the quote unquote cheating cases have some tie in to the use or improper use of AI. And it's really remarkable you sharing how from your perspective as as a director, you can sort of spot the essays or the writing. And what we are seeing when we're working with students as well is an ability or perhaps inability to answer questions about the steps along the way to reach the answer. And I will tell you, it is quite glaring at times. Not always, but at times. I mean, Susan, do you recall that one situation we had where there was an issue of AI hallucinations?

Susan Stone [00:12:47]: I mean, it's remarkable what what you see. I feel as if AI has dulled instinct.

Kristina Supler [00:12:55]: Oh, interesting thought. Yeah. That's something to wrestle with because on the one hand, we wanna I believe we should embrace technology, but of course, responsible use of technology.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:06]: Now you just tired us talking about some of the different people that you work with in the practice that you both have and supporting students as they're going through this process. And I talked about the fact that your practice group handles complex cases involving allegations. This could be sexual assault. It could be academic integrity. It could be there's lots of different aspects to what your practice is working toward. I guess from a high level, there are going to be individuals that when they're looking at graduate school that have had these, we'll call them dings on their record, right? Some things happened in the past and some are going to be more severe than others, but there's always that question that is going to come up on a application that is going to ask them to disclose. And I know that in the minds of many students, some students may say, you know, should I even put this down? Has this been expunged? Has it been long enough that I don't have to say anything about this anymore? What do you say to those students? Well, you

Susan Stone [00:14:09]: have to look at the prompt. If the prompt asks for it, you have to give the tell the truth. It's that simple.

Kristina Supler [00:14:14]: I was gonna say I wish we had some secret sauce here and we we'd shared trade secrets, Chris, but it really is. Regularly, we say to clients over and over, read the question. Read it very carefully. Read the question two, three, four plus times. Every school can have different there's the common app, but then schools have their own questions, essays, so on and so forth. Read the question very carefully.

Susan Stone [00:14:39]: Less is more. You have to be truthful, but you don't have to gut yourself either. Read the question. Answer the question. I call it a sandwich approach. Tell them what happened. Tell them the consequence. Tell them how you grew.

Susan Stone [00:14:55]: Be done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:55]: Now and I will say that there are times where a university may ask you for more information. So from my perspective, from the admission side of things, there are times where if a student has a felony on their record and they were put on probation or they went to jail and they had a parole period, I would probably ask that person to show that they are off parole and to get those court records to be able to show us that that is the case. So you have to watch your email as well and make sure that if you're being asked for something that you do what you can to provide that.

Kristina Supler [00:15:40]: That reminds me of a situation we had where there was a debate about what was or wasn't requested by the school, but the issue involved college credits from a different institution and the student didn't ultimately complete the semester. And so it was an issue of is something was that brief period of time at a university subject to disclosure? And, you know, Chris, I'll be curious as to your thoughts. I mean, do you think it's it's in a student's best interest to air on the side of disclosure?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:11]: I tend to say yes, but it also comes down to how they ask the question, just like you were saying, because if they ask for all transcripts from all institutions, now if you never matriculated to an incident, you were accepted, maybe you went but then dropped out in the first week, there's really not gonna be a record of you at that institution. There's not really gonna be a transcript of you at that institution. Now, depends on how the university is asking and whether they're asking for all matriculations or if they're asking for or all enrollments, or all completed terms, you know, there's lots of different words that could mean something just a little bit different. So you can see how this can become a little bit more complex than just saying, is it or isn't it?

Susan Stone [00:17:01]: And don't overcomplicate it. Read the question. If they ask where you enrolled, tell them where you were enrolled. I should let people know there is a national clearing house. The minute you do enroll, there is documentation. All schools have access to that clearing house. Just read the question.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:18]: I would say that you're gonna get in more trouble if you fail to disclose something and the school believes that you're being dishonest on your application and they identify that. Then if you disclose more and the school says, well, we really didn't need that. So I would on the size side of disclosure in that regard. Now I know you work with students that are looking at lots of different types of programs. Are you seeing any differences in regards to disclosure of either academic or criminal type of offenses when it comes to, let's say, regulated, more regulated, academic areas versus maybe not as regulated or areas that lead to certification or licensure versus non licensure that that you'd want to touch on?

Susan Stone [00:18:08]: Certain offenses you can seal and certain offenses you can seal and expunge, and there is a difference. But certain professions, like the financial industry for one and law, I'm told, can pierce that. So again, not to be a broken record. Make sure you read the application and don't rely on the fact that your record's been sealed because it still may show up on a report.

Kristina Supler [00:18:35]: In the academic realm or in the educational realm, what we've been told and what we've seen in our work, in the Title nine realm, Title nine cases, is that colleges and universities have become a little more thoughtful, I'll say, in asking the question and that previously the questions regarding essentially student discipline, right, student title nine would fall under that heading broadly speaking. The questions used to be, have you ever been sanctioned or disciplined? And now more recently, some schools, not all, are asking more carefully worded questions along the lines of, have you ever been part of a process or named in a complaint? And so that's something that we've seen change in the title nine realm more recently, I would say.

Susan Stone [00:19:22]: And it's infuriating to me. I am so outraged by that because we know that there are false accusations out there. We also know that there are accusations that can't be proven or a student might go through a process and be found not responsible. We also know that there are conflicts between students that can be resolved through mediation or another alternative process, And the fact that a student can be merely accused and have a blemish, well, what do I always say, Christina? That's outrageous. Susan, your comments about being found not responsible, you reminded me. Why don't you tell the story of what ROTC We represent a lot of students who, have military commissions in ROTC in various arms of the of our armed forces. And if a student goes through a Title nine process, even if the case is dismissed or found in their favor, military has the right to look at whether that officer or cadet behaved in a way becoming of a representative of our armed forces and can put that cadet through a separate proceeding, which it's not for me to question our military, but I have helped students navigate that process and advise them on how to explain what had happened. But, boy, getting accused is a very serious matter, and you can't always control it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:56]: Now I mentioned earlier that some students do get those dings on their record. Some are call them larger dings than others and and maybe they've had some other issues that they have to deal with. What are some misconceptions that students or or even parents often have about how long a disciplinary, we'll call it a ding, will follow them in their academic journey?

Susan Stone [00:21:22]: You have to read the school's policy. Every school has a different policy. Some say seven years, and then the records are destroyed. I would argue, Christina, chime in, that if it's a public institution, it might always remain available pursuant to a sunshine law. What do you think, Christina?

Kristina Supler [00:21:42]: Public institutions, wonderful places, but a thorn in our side from the perspective of records retention and public records requests, FOIA requests, people call it different things. If a student at a public institution, if records regarding that student are requested, you know, maybe pursuant to a subpoena or or something else, a records request. Broadly speaking, the student will get some sort of notice that the student's records are being inquired about. But boy, these public institutions and public records requests and what they can can and can't provide. And if there's litigation settlement agreements, you just, you just never know what is going to come to the light of day, what information is going to surface. Sometimes it's helpful and then sometimes it can be a student's undoing. You just never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:35]: Now for students that have made mistakes in their past, what are some practical steps that they can take to demonstrate for a school in your perspectives personal growth and readiness for

Susan Stone [00:22:48]: First of all, don't get in trouble again. I know you're laughing and smiling. You're laughing and smiling, but it happens. You're laughing because the truth can be funny. Don't get in trouble again. Be good. Mind your Ps and Qs and then reflect on what actually led to the problem and take related steps to show growth. So for example, if you were caught cheating, I'm not so sure counseling and substance abuse would make sense.

Susan Stone [00:23:19]: Right? It's gotta be related. It's gotta show that you reflected what you did.

Kristina Supler [00:23:24]: But conversely, I mean, many title nine cases, not all, but it's it's not uncommon for us to have clients come to us. And the title nine complaints, you know, at the root of the issue was students engaging in drug or alcohol use. And so if a student was disciplined through a student conduct process or a title nine process and the behavior in question, whether it's, again, some sort of sexual misconduct or let's just say something more innocuous like campus vandalism, but the root of that behavior was being drunk. Then that's a student who may be in an essay and looking to the future could reflect and demonstrate. As Susan said, first and foremost, stay out of trouble, but also has the student taken any steps to perhaps address substance abuse issues?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:11]: Now, if a student feels that they've been unfairly denied admissions or had their acceptance rescinded due to some past misconduct, What legal resources or forms of advocacy should they consider?

Susan Stone [00:24:27]: Unless they were denied admission, that's a difficult hurdle. You'd have to prove it was for impermissible grounds, illegal grounds. If you were denied admission because of your race or your ethnic background or a disability, that is an area where we could explore legal recourse. However, if someone denies you admission based on what they perceive as a character flaw, I don't see a remedy for that. Find a different school.

Kristina Supler [00:24:59]: And I'll share a story, Chris. We have had many calls from families. One in particular comes to mind though, where a high school student was accepted to a very prestigious university. And over the summer between high school graduation and rolling onto campus in the fall, there were allegations that got out and spread like wildfire on social media. And they were just that. They were allegations. They weren't even proven true. However, it was reported to the incoming university, and that university revoked the acceptance just just on social media.

Kristina Supler [00:25:34]: And again, there was no basis in truth. And so, you know, to Susan's point, those are the cases that are really tough for us. They're they're heartbreaking because a student works so hard. But unless they're, you know, the student is, for example,

Susan Stone [00:25:49]: in a protected class or there's some illegal means, you know, character flaw, shortcoming perceived by a university to revoke, tougher legal battle. Never give up. Just because you're gonna have a different path than you originally thought doesn't mean that the crooked road or the road that you didn't think you were going to take, not to get all Robert Frost on you, but I thought I'd make a little literary reference since we're talking about academia, Doesn't mean that the path that you're gonna go on isn't the better path. Sometimes the best things in life that have happened to me personally were born out of situations that I thought were the worst and were bad. And so what I'd like to say to people listening, think of something that bad happens as being bitter. There is no bad. There's just bitter. It may taste bad temporarily, but if you keep your head down and you keep pushing forward, you will find a path that's great and meaningful.

Susan Stone [00:26:52]: It may not be the path that you originally intended, but that's life. The curves and the twists and the beautiful turns we take.

Kristina Supler [00:27:01]: Susan, that was beautiful. I agree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:03]: You know, sometimes I see students going down the path of writing things like character statements or getting letters of recommendation or providing legal documentation. How effective have you found in your practice with working with clients? How effective are these in overcoming past issues during the admission process?

Kristina Supler [00:27:22]: Well, Chris, I will say this. Lawyers provide great value to clients. However, I have come to learn over the years. Colleges and universities, guess what? They don't really want to hear from me. They don't really care what I have to say. They might care about what Susan has to say a little more, but they don't even really care about that. Colleges and universities wanna hear, and they also don't really care about the neighbor who says that young Susan Stone is so polite and promising, and they don't care that I was a Girl Scout. I I really wasn't just saying that.

Kristina Supler [00:27:55]: But, you know, I think that really the heart of the issue in in my experience at any rates, in in my interface with on these types of issues is that, you know, we'll just say outside parties, broadly speaking, are looking for authenticity, sincerity, and growth. You know, they don't want some perfectly crafted one page letter that was clearly written by a lawyer and that's navigating around and among bad facts. They wanna hear from the student directly. Show us what you got. Show us why you shouldn't be defined forever by a mistake in the past.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:31]: And I know that you both were talking about character. And in some professions, there are character and fitness standards that have to be upheld. The legal profession is one good example of that. Medical profession has their own aspect of it as well, that, you know, very highly regulated fields, as we were talking about earlier. How do these past infractions, in your opinions, affect a student's long term ability to be able to get through that vetting that happens at the end of an educational experience as they are preparing for state bar exams, state licensing, or other credentialing that is required?

Susan Stone [00:29:12]: That's a great question. It depends what the blemishes about. I actually, many, many years ago, represented a young woman before the Ohio Supreme Court character and fitness committee. They were tough, and it was concerning lying. So if it's something like integrity, lying, cheating, stealing, you got problems. If it's substance abuse, those, organizations, those governing bodies might make you take a lap, say, show some more growth, come back next year. But I think, ultimately, there's an understanding of disabilities and substance abuse. Wouldn't you agree, Christina?

Kristina Supler [00:29:52]: I would. And and it's funny that you asked that question, Chris, because just this morning, I'm working on a criminal matter and had to delve into information on the Ohio Medical Board's website and a list of disqualifying criminal offenses. And side note, I'm not giving out or providing any legal advice here. But it was interesting that at first at first pass, some criminal convictions can be an impediment to licensing. But it was interesting that it was clear that it it it it's not absolute. So, again, I think it just we've come full circle, this idea of demonstrating growth, coming from a place of authenticity, earnestness to show, you know, that that that mistake in the past doesn't have to forever preclude and limit future opportunities. But again, you know, read the fine prints, work with experienced professionals who know how to navigate those proceedings because there certainly are going to be bumps and hurdles, but it it's I think like Susan said earlier, and and she's right. Never give up.

Kristina Supler [00:30:57]: To is human.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:59]: You know, and the one other thing that I'll throw out there, and this is especially true for students going into law school. One thing that became very interesting as I was working in law schools in the past is that character and fitness boards had started to review or some character fitness boards had started to also look at social media accounts of individual individuals as they were going up for review. And I can't say that I would completely agree or disagree with that in looking at the character fitness, but just know that that in some jurisdictions, some states that that may be the case. And if that is the case, you need to watch what you're putting on your social media accounts.

Kristina Supler [00:31:44]: The social media audit is is just here to stay now, whether it's for academic purposes or employment. I mean, we have to be careful about what we post online.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:53]: Well, Susan, Christina, I just wanna say thank you. This has been very insightful. And definitely, as I said, it's not been a topic that we've talked about in the past, but I think it's a really important topic because things happen, as you said, and you have to be able to pick yourself up. You have to be able to keep moving forward and you have to be able to know, can the plan still work or do you have to pivot? And if you have to pivot, what are some options? And it's good to understand that going in and not to be not feel like you're being pushed down and saying, no, you can't do it because you have to answer these questions. So it's important that we've had this conversation. I really appreciate your time and you sharing all of this today, and I truly wish you both the best.

Susan Stone [00:32:39]: Thank you. It's been a pleasure being on this podcast. And I I will say, Chris, we've been invited to speak on a host of different channels and shows on this topic. So it must be of particular interest to parents and students and the general public, but I'm not just saying this to Flint or you. You ask the best questions.

Kristina Supler [00:32:59]: It's really been a pleasure talking with you today, Chris. Thanks for having us.

Susan Stone [00:33:03]: Bye bye.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:04]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Are you considering grad school in today’s ever-evolving landscape? This week’s episode of “Victors in Grad School” delivers a must-listen conversation directly from the heart of the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals (NAGAP) conference. Host Dr. Christopher Lewis gathers real-time insights from experts, admissions leaders, and graduate support professionals about the most pressing shifts shaping the graduate school experience in 2024—and what they mean for your journey.

AI & Authenticity One theme echoed by multiple guests is the rise of artificial intelligence, both in the application process and the workplace. While AI tools can help streamline your application, admissions teams stress the importance of letting your authentic self shine. Be cautious about relying too heavily on tools like ChatGPT—admissions counselors can usually spot AI-generated essays. Use technology as support, but make sure your personality and individual story come through.

Holistic Admissions & Diverse Backgrounds The pandemic shifted perspectives around achievement. Rather than just seeking candidates with extensive internships or perfect test scores, many programs are now looking at the whole person. Did you juggle jobs with school? Are you a first-generation student? Your resilience, resourcefulness, and personal growth matter more than ever.

Funding, Fit & Flexibility Cost is a growing concern, and our experts urge applicants to ask (and keep asking) about scholarships, assistantships, and other financial support. In addition, with the exponential growth of online and hybrid offerings, it’s crucial to understand various learning formats and select what truly fits your needs. There’s also more pressure than ever for grad programs to demonstrate real modern-world relevance—so do your homework and talk to admissions reps, not just online reviews or forums.

Evolving Skills for the Future The episode also explores how the demands of the workforce are shifting. Communication and soft skills—especially in an AI-enhanced environment—are becoming more critical. Programs are adapting to prepare students not just for today’s job market, but for tomorrow’s unpredictable opportunities.

Why You Should Listen If you’re serious about graduate school, don’t miss this episode. You’ll walk away with honest, actionable advice and a clearer sense of what it takes to stand out—and thrive—in today’s graduate landscape.

Ready to dive deeper? Listen now for practical tips and insider perspectives that could make all the difference in your grad school quest!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question is what's a shift you're seeing that today's prospective students should be aware of as they consider applying to graduate school. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:03]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions, thing is being your cheerleader for my students. Invest in yourself. It is competitive with jobs and AI is on the rise, so it can be challenging when applying for jobs or graduate school. When you're writing an admissions essay or doing your resume, please try not to rely on chat GBT that much. I know it's tempting, but I hate to break it to you, we can tell. We can definitely tell assert writing style or the dashes, but we wanna know you.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:38]: So really try to you can utilize the AI, that's fine, But put in a sense of who you are even through a piece of paper. We wanna get to know you. Be confident. Let that personality shine through and best of luck.

Donna Wang Su [00:01:54]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Northwestern University, Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I think a shift that I am seeing as students are applying to grad school today, I think is that vulnerability. I think that COVID really changed things a bit in the sense of people are leaning a bit into not following. Here's that checklist. I'm gonna check everything off. And they're looking at other opportunities, and I think trying to find the lessons there, and that's something that I truly value. I think us in the admissions offices are also looking at things a little differently.

Donna Wang Su [00:02:33]: We talk about there's that book Privileged Poor where we will consider, oh, this person doesn't have a lot of internships. But as I look at their resume, maybe they're a first generation college student and they don't have that financial luxury to take an unpaid internship in this field or industry. But I've seen that they've worked two, three different jobs while also going to school full time. What lessons have they picked up? What professional maturity have they picked up from this kind of time management? And so I think there's become more of a focus on that holistic admissions and holistic graduate student approach as well.

Santavaya Jordan [00:03:10]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. The biggest thing I see with students in particular is looking at what funding is available and if funding is even gonna be offered due to the political climate. And I can tell you that many of the schools they're fighting to find funding for students to encourage you to still be in these spaces. We definitely want you to be at our institutions to be able to thrive and not focus on how you're gonna pay for a school. So I know that has been a big concern that's happening. Also, another thing is even with testing, a lot of the students are worried about GRE scores or even, like, some that it may have GMAT scores, but a lot of schools are getting rid of that and a lot of them are taking holistic approach to look at other applicants, getting ready for testing because there is a lot of bias within looking at applicants. So I would definitely say although you may be studying for a GRE or studying for a GMAT, don't rule out all the other background things that you may have done with whether it's research or even maybe even had a paper published.

Santavaya Jordan [00:04:07]: Those different type of things can really set you apart when applying for graduate school. So don't focus on your negatives that you may not have. Look at all the positive things and look at other ways to engage in your institution. If you don't have research experience, look at your institution and talk with different faculty and see if you can get in their lab. Pick up lab skills and learn new things that really help you advance your application.

Paul Brandano [00:04:31]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the Master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. So we're seeing a few shifts when we think about who our cohorts are. I would say first and foremost, it's a generational shift. When we think about Gen Z who's now a growing part of our population, I think the advantages they bring is that they care a lot about authenticity. They care a lot about making a difference in the world, being socially conscious. And I think these are all things that are going to be valuable in their careers. Of course, the political environment is always changing, so they've gotta be aware of that.

Paul Brandano [00:04:59]: But I think that at the end of the day, they tend to have their head in the right place place when it comes to picking up the job of basically taking over the world eventually. I would also say that they tend to be because of the pandemic and because of the challenges they faced, either more resilient or less resilient. And I think that, you know, depending on their personal experience through that, we see it as either a strength or a gap. I think as long as the students are aware of that, that it's probably had an effect and are self aware enough to acknowledge it, it becomes an opportunity rather than a limitation.

Emily Dayton [00:05:31]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of a specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Rady School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. What I'm seeing is that with the growth of generative AI tools and AI assisted work environments, that what is becoming even more important is a focus on strong communication skills. I work with very quantitative and technical programs, and the shift that we're starting to do is that we're preparing our current graduate students for a work environment. We'll be more of a conductor of an AI tool that's doing most of the quantitative and technical lift. And so really what sets students apart and job candidates apart are their communication soft skills.

Tony Fraga [00:06:19]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. So many students are applying to a lot more schools today than ever before. It's not just applying to a couple of programs. We're seeing huge amounts of volume increase, almost like undergrad levels, at the grad level. That's just becoming normal. So now grad schools, you have to understand, are dealing with a large influx of applicants, but not necessarily great on yield on return.

Tony Fraga [00:06:49]: And I think you need to be aware that you may need to be open to some more programs than you think. You also might not get accepted to some of the ones you want to get into. Others are gonna be so hungry, they want to make it work for you. And I'd find a blend of that and find, hey, what's your price point? And are you applying to enough different grad schools? Have you opened and considered other grad programs that you might not have thought? Don't just go for the an MBA, the main ones. Be open to new programs that are more modern, frankly. Are you getting an analog grad degree in a digital age? We need more modern grad programs, and a lot of them are there, but you gotta find them. And they might not be named what you think the grad degree is. So I'm seeing a lot of grad students apply to more because they're educating themselves and finding there's these other kinds of programs out there.

Adrian Peralta [00:07:37]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I myself am a graduate international special populations admissions counselor. Look at online, hybrid, and in person. And if you don't understand the difference between the three, definitely ask questions. And sometimes, programs might say they're online, but, really, they might be hybrid. Some might say they're hybrid really in person.

Adrian Peralta [00:08:02]: So definitely ask those questions, and please always make those informed decisions and just lead with knowledge. That's the best way to choose everything.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:08:15]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. I think a lot of people are shortcutting their research process while they're evaluating schools. A lot of use of AI to accelerate their application process and maybe not going through the same due diligence that I've seen in the past. And I think that in the long run, you're much better if you invest fully in understanding the schools that you're applying to and being a little bit more selective than doing kind of a a ray shot, kind of application strategy.

Naronda Wright [00:08:54]: Hello. I'm Naronda Wright. I serve as the associate associate dean of graduate student services at Jordan Southern University and also a service at NAGAP president. Enrollment is important on our campuses right now, so making sure that you are a good fit for that program that you are applying for and being admitted to so you can progress and graduate and make sure that you are contributing to growth and advancement and things like that on our campuses. So just making sure that what you're doing is what you wanna do and it's a good fit.

Irene Aiken [00:09:23]: I'm Irene Aiken. I'm the Dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. A shift student should be aware of is the jobs that are gonna be in the future. And in particular, companies want students who have skills of today's needs, which include AI and the use of AI and how AI is gonna change their job.

Irene Aiken [00:09:48]: Grad schools are coming back around to the idea of test scores. We saw that with undergrad recently where test scores are coming back. They was they're optional for a while, and now a lot of schools are moving back in that direction. I think faculty get very concerned about the performance of students, and particularly, it's kinda cliche, but post pandemic, grad schools are seeing a decline in students' ability to do graduate level work. And I think that has a lot to do with their student experience over the years, but faculty are kind of going back to the tried and true method of well, they should take this, they should take that. So be aware of that and be aware of changes in how faculty assess the academic readiness of graduate students when they enter programs.

Marcus Hanscon [00:10:35]: Hi. My name is Marcus Hanscon. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools. Students do so much on their own without talking to anybody. They spend so much time online. They rely on Reddit. They rely on other technology and AI, and there's certainly value to that. And you wanna get some external opinions and thoughts and see what kind of evaluators are saying about your programs.

Marcus Hanscon [00:10:58]: But nothing beats actually talking to the people and getting in there beyond just doing your own web research. And a lot of students, they don't talk to anybody until after they apply. And they miss out on that opportunity to not only learn about a good program, but also learn what a program is not right for them. So why waste your time applying to a program that ultimately isn't gonna be the right fit? And you can usually wean that out by talking to an admissions rep or faculty or students very early in your process before you ever apply.

Sabrina Brown [00:11:26]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. The many roles that graduate education does play, I see that higher education is not as trusted by the intent of higher education is both different for everyone and what people think the outcome should be. And it's not just return on investment or getting another job, a higher paying job, or sort of economically focused. Higher education serves a lot of purposes. And so we see this shift in terms of what is coming out of or going into higher education and what that value means to the public, but I think that it's important for prospective students to really be grounded in what does this endeavor do for you and how does that shift your life and your ability to live the best life that you're creating for yourself.

Addie Caudle [00:12:30]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. Students really being more cautious about the programs they're looking at. They're wanting to make sure that these programs relate to where they wanna be in life, whether it's their goals, whether it's they wanna be in academia or industry. All of that is going to depend significantly on the type of program that they're going for.

Melissa Yeung [00:12:53]: I'm Dr. Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the School of Physical and Occupational Therapy at Bowling Green State University. I think the cost of education, you know, cost is always on the forefront of of students' mind, and the availability of support is, I think, becoming more important for students. So those are the two things that I think it's coming up to the forefront compared to the trends that we're seeing maybe five or ten years ago.

James Monahan [00:13:25]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. The biggest shift that is happening right now in higher education in general is going to online programs and you need to figure out what's right for you, whether you want a fully online program or maybe you need a hybrid type program. I think that's really important and something that everyone should keep in mind when they choose their graduate studies.

Jamie Crampton [00:13:54]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. AI. Absolutely. I mean, AI is sadly, but also positively becoming more and more widely used across the world.

Jamie Crampton [00:14:18]: And I feel like not just in education during your studies, but also post enrollment when you actually get a job and a career, more and more jobs are going to look for people with AI experience. And I think that's a key thing is just understand AI, use AI, and then learn how to apply that to your education, but also professionally afterwards as well.

Ben Webb [00:14:44]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Used to be on the admission side at multiple schools across the country. There's a lot of programs that are out there in world. So it's figuring out a lot of the MSBA programs or AI or computer science. What do you wanna do? Do you wanna be an AI manager, or are you looking to be a tactical person that's actually using the data? So I think we're we're starting to see a shift of overload of programs. There's a lot coming out with the same names. So how do we kinda start to differentiate which one is gonna be the best fit? So understanding and finding you want the degree, but what within that degree is what you're really looking to get in a world where many universities of various sizes are offering the same thing.

Matt Bohlen [00:15:31]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bohlen, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. Been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in ed, a couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also I love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. I think the shifts of how to pay for college is something that's important. Historically, you know, we relied a lot on internships or assistantships. Nowadays, I think it's okay to ask what type of funding is available because there's so much competition in the market. The graduate programs have to be realistic that there are scholarships that need to be spent for students, especially some of your high achieving students that are gonna bring a lot of experiences to the program itself. So I think that's a big shift that we're seeing is just don't be afraid to ask for scholarships because they're there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:15]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Navigating graduate school is a journey filled with both promise and challenge. While many students focus on selecting the right program or acing their classes, there’s a world of support—often overlooked—that can make all the difference. In the latest episode of Victor’s in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis brings together enrollment professionals, faculty, and industry experts from universities across the country to answer a vital question: What’s an underrated support service or strategy that can make a big difference for student success?

A powerful theme that emerges is the value of community and connection. From networking with recruiters and professionals, to seeking out mentors and joining student organizations, building intentional relationships is a recurring piece of advice. Stacy Goldstein of UC San Diego urges students to “network, network, network”—not just for job opportunities, but to foster professional connections that can open unexpected doors.

Tapping into campus resources is another underappreciated strategy. Whether it’s visiting the writing center as recommended by Irene Aiken of UNC Pembroke, or taking advantage of the library’s knowledgeable staff and resources, graduate students are reminded that these supports go far beyond undergraduate basics. Several guests, like Matt Bohlen, highlight that services often assumed to be for undergrads—such as tutoring and consulting—are invaluable at the graduate level.

Career and professional development also take center stage. According to Tony Fraga, a proactive approach to career services—like participating in mock interviews—can directly impact post-graduate outcomes. Meanwhile, Paul Brandano from UCLA underscores the importance of identifying and addressing skill gaps before and during your program, whether by brushing up on technical skills or improving communication through creative outlets.

Finally, there’s a strong message about attending to mental health and personal well-being. Multiple voices stress the significance of using counseling services and seeking support from faculty, mentors, and peers. “Don’t suffer in silence,” advises Emily Dayton, reminding students they’re not alone on this journey.

The episode is rich with practical advice, personal stories, and a refreshing honesty about the realities of graduate education. If you’re considering graduate school or already on your journey, this conversation is an essential listen to ensure you’re not missing out on the resources that can propel you to success.

Tune in, take notes, and empower your grad school experience!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question is what's a underrated support service or strategy that can make a big difference for student success. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:04]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions. And my big thing is being your cheerleader for my students. Network. Network. Network. Network.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:18]: Write down every recruiter's name. So a lot of support strategy or what can you do to be successful. Make the connections you have count. So write down, even if it's an online virtual event, who you spoke with is that recruiter. So next time when you meet them, especially in person, you can make that connection and let them know that you were present. That helps.

Donna Wang Su [00:01:40]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at Northwestern University, Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm definitely biased, but I do think that an underrated service is gonna be your financial aid office. And I say that because I do a lot of one on one financial advising with my students, which quickly turns into strategic planning slash career services. Because we'll start talking about budgeting and we'll start talking about, well, I wanna be able to save up to do this. I wanna go explore this. And next you know, it leads down a different path. And I love connecting with students years later who tell me that they still remember tips or use strategies that we've used from our coaching sessions.

Santavaya Jordan [00:02:24]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. Definitely, back again, tack into the mental health. Making sure your mental health is intact as much as possible. Not everyone understands and believes how much they need resources to talk to someone whether it's a counselor or even a mentor that you could relate to. Someone that's been in your position before or someone that can just have be an outlet or a resource that doesn't have anything to say or give their own opinion on what you're going through, but a listening ear to ear to help you get through difficult situations, whether it is personally that can affect you academically or something that's academically that can affect you personally.

Paul Brandano [00:03:05]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. But with a quantitative master's, I think the the probably more underrated support services are the things that are initially gaps on the technical side. So I I think, for example, about a person who was fantastic in our first cohort, she was, by training, an economist. She was an undergraduate economist and she came into our program and said, I just don't have the Python. I have never programmed in R. I don't really know my SQL. And she said, but I promise you by the time I get into the program, I will have taken a few courses and I plan on spending my Friday nights in the library.

Paul Brandano [00:03:39]: And everybody can say that, but she absolutely did it. And I think that the difference it made for her was that she didn't just get hired by the the consulting firm. She got hired by BCG Gamma. You know, she could really walk the walk and talk the talk. So I think I think a lot of folks might underestimate the real leap they can make by just adding a little bit more pre prep before the master's degree. And I see that quite a lot. The other one is, you know, we do a lot with on the other end of the spectrum, if it's non quant, it's communications. And so if you if you come in knowing where your biggest gap is and then look for creative ways of filling them, not all programs are gonna do all of it.

Paul Brandano [00:04:11]: And so we add improv as an example. But that improv is available in most major cities. Right? And I always recommend it. It's a great way to to sort of launch your way forward quickly in a short window of time while you're still getting your master's degree. The best time of your life when you're probably your most charismatic. And so I would recommend those kinds of approaches too. Like, look for the creative things that make you shine uniquely, you know, that give you that x factor, that ability to talk about something a little different than the average candidate might hear.

Emily Dayton [00:04:41]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of the specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Rady School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. This is something that our faculty say a lot, but we really encourage our students to do not suffer in silence. Most staff and faculty are there to help, and they want students to be successful. So one thing that we do at the Rady School is that our faculty will proactively share the support system that is in place at the start of each quarter, at the start of each class so that our students are aware of the resources that are there before they run into an issue.

Tony Fraga [00:05:21]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. For sure, career services. And here is an underrated thing. And I'll just say, I know there are many career services departments that aren't great. They're just kinda meh, and you don't learn a lot. It's maybe captain obvious.

Tony Fraga [00:05:40]: Like, make sure you have a LinkedIn profile, and here's three resume templates you can use. Like, you can get that off of ChatGPT and Internet. You don't need a career services department for that, to be honest. A great career services department is will meet with you and help you do things like a mock actual interview before you have an actual interview with an employer. I'd be looking at that. I think that's so underrated. If you cannot just train how to get a degree and learn something, if you can learn how to then interview with a real employer, it can make or break whether or not you get that job. And let me tell you, the next generation coming out, people in their twenties and thirties, they're struggling to find right fit jobs because you're not interviewing well.

Tony Fraga [00:06:16]: Tap into your university's career service department. They know how to do it. They see lots of you go through not well, so they have a vested interest in you doing it better.

Adrian Peralta [00:06:29]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I, myself, am a graduate international and special populations admissions counselor. Definitely understand student accounting and financial aid. Those are your two biggest portions that will help you onboard to the university you want to in the right way and help you understand what opportunities are out there to fund your degree and finance it, you know, also. But also look at graduate assistantships. That also is a really big thing that we see these days.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:07:06]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. The most underrated support service is probably taking advantage of networking and career and professional development while you're a graduate student. A lot of people think about their academics while they're in school and think that that comes next, But it doesn't matter how smart you are or how much you know if nobody knows who you are. So take the time to once a week, twice a week, reach out to people, make some connections, and try and build some bridges along the way.

Dr. Noranda Wright [00:07:43]: Hello. I'm Noranda Wright. I serve as the associate dean of graduate student services at Georgia Southern University and also serve as the Nagat president. I think probably one of the most underrated one is advisement because that's where you're gonna get your information from. So knowing who to talk to if you need help with registering for classes, if you need to change your major, or if you need to just real realize what you need to do in order to advance yourself academically, to be retained as a student, and eventually graduate. So know who your advisors are, know who your program directors are so they can offer that support for you is, I think, is probably one of the most underrated things on our campuses.

Irene Aiken [00:08:22]: I'm Irene Aiken. I'm the dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. The underrated support service on campus is often the writing center, but the career center, there are just so many offerings at every campus. I don't think students take advantage of enough.

Irene Aiken [00:08:42]: Retention actually makes a big difference. Regular check ins with students sometimes seem like something it's out of reach for a school. I would say with AI, it makes it even easier where you could have an AI agent calling all of your students two or three times a semester just to check on them, see how things are doing, maybe, you know, get them resources, get them help.

Marcus Hanscon [00:09:05]: Hi. My name is Marcus Hanscon. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools. Unfortunately, admissions officers are seen as salespeople, and I think that's an unfortunate thing for students cause they assume that whenever they're talking to an admissions person, they're only gonna get one side of the story. And I think the vast majority of the people that I've worked with over seventeen years in graduate enrollment is that they're genuinely out to help the student find the right thing for them. And even if that means telling them to go to another school. So talk to your admissions reps, Call them on the phone. Text with them.

Marcus Hanscon [00:09:36]: Email with them. Go and visit them in their offices. Have a candid conversation, and don't be afraid to ask good questions, candid questions, things that you might be worried. Can I ask that or not? Ask the questions. There's no bad question other than the ones that you don't ask.

Sabrina Brown [00:09:53]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. Finding ways to make connection and build community to the level that feels like support for you, but oftentimes students think about the efficient way to go through a program. How many credits can I take? Is it online? Is it gonna fit with my commuter schedule? And those are all important things, but going to a new level educationally can feel lonely or it can stretch you in ways that can be surprising and finding those that are kind of alongside side it or have done it before can really be a game changer. But when you're sort of in a space of learning, it can feel vulnerable and scary and sometimes people kind of turn into themselves to feel like they need to be their own support. But I have found that the students that truly are able to raise their hand and say, either I need help or I just need to feel seen in this process, they go farther and feel better about the experience that they have.

Addie Caudle [00:10:58]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. It's really the advising and the mentoring. Different institutions kind of address these in different ways. I know our students that we'll see, you know, they we don't have any professional advisors, but we are working on that. That's something I'm actually hiring for right now. And we've got faculty mentors that really work with the departments. But a lot of times, they're not able to get a hold of them due to nine month contracts and really we run into that issue during the summer.

Addie Caudle [00:11:26]: Faculty are also so involved in teaching and research of their own projects that sometimes the advising and taking the time to help direct and guide our students where they need for help can become difficult.

Melissa Yeung [00:11:42]: I'm Dr. Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the School of Physical and Occupational Therapy at Bowling Green State University. The use of the counseling center and with all the stresses that we all face on a daily basis, whether it's balancing your obligations or just finding an outlet that or someone you can talk to, the counseling center can make a lot of difference. It's also the place where if you you were struggling with something else, they could easily point you to other resources on campus. And being in a good mental space generally is great. It's a good start for academic success.

James Monahan [00:12:27]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. I don't know if it's underrated, but I would say that the library is incredibly useful to students and I don't know that they realize it and they don't perhaps recognize that the people that work in the libraries are really there to help them whether it be with research or solving a problem and I think that, you really should go out and check out what they've got available to you.

Jamie Crampton [00:12:59]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. At least from The UK side and why I joined Gecko, we're a student engagement platform that helps kind of provide students with the right tools to understand an institution, whether that be prospective or current students, is utilizing admissions staff and also admissions student workers. For me, when I joined university, I became a student worker because my experience prior to enrolling was I was scared. I didn't know who to talk to.

Jamie Crampton [00:13:41]: I didn't know if a question was a stupid question. Felt more comfortable speaking with a student worker or an admissions representative because they were so much more friendly and a little bit more approachable. So for anybody listening to this, if you're a prospective or current student, I would say don't be afraid to reach out to the people whose job it is to answer your questions because from a pre enrollment perspective, that really enhanced my journey in which university I decided to go with. But then also when I began my studies, I actually felt like dropping out of university in the first year because I didn't enjoy some of the courses I was enrolled in as part of my degree. I had to do four individual subjects each semester and some of them I was like, I'm doing a marketing degree. Why am I doing finance? Why am I doing accounting? And I was told that after speaking with my representative, my mentor, that this was just the first year and it gets a lot more segmented in terms of my career path and what I wanted to do later on. And so she encouraged me to stick at it, keep going with it, and it will get better. And I'm really glad I listened to her because I almost dropped out.

Jamie Crampton [00:14:46]: And instead of dropping out, I end up graduating in the top possible degree class I could have graduated with. So, it was all thanks to her because I was going to drop out if not. So long winded response, but utilize the staff that are there to help you both preenrollment and postenrollment.

Ben Webb [00:15:05]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Used to be on the mission side at multiple schools across the country. For me, one of my biggest things that I recommend to people when they're coming into a graduate school, they're gonna go into professional world is mentoring services and and joining things that kinda get you out of comfort zone. So things like Toastmasters, joining your young professional society, figuring out how to speak and communicate effectively, be able to interact with new people, learn new things, like those soft skills and be able to really execute upon those is a priceless because we can teach you to talk the finance and the numbers and those sort of things, but being able to articulate, present yourself in a room, dress for success, those are things that really need to shine to be able to elevate yourself.

Matt Bohlen [00:15:54]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bohlen, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. I've been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in higher ed, couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. You know, I think at the graduate level too, we don't often think that there is tutoring available, there's consulting available, there's all types of different services that are typically thought of to be undergraduate services that are available for graduate students too. The writing center, I mean, those are some pretty big resources.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Choosing the right graduate program is a big decision that can shape your academic, professional, and personal future. In this episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis brings together a diverse panel of enrollment management professionals and industry experts from across the country to answer a critical question: What’s one piece of advice you would give students to help them better evaluate whether a program is the right fit academically, personally, or professionally? The insights shared in this episode are a goldmine for anyone considering graduate school or helping others navigate the process.

One major theme throughout the episode is the importance of self-reflection and self-honesty. Many experts, including Sabrina Brown (UNC Charlotte) and Tony Fraga (Direct Development), urge students to look beyond academic rankings or prestige. Instead, they recommend starting with your "why"—what are your true motivations and career goals? Take the time to evaluate your learning style, your needs for support and community, and how a program aligns with your personal aspirations and circumstances.

Research and connection are another recurring theme. Repeatedly, the guests encourage prospective students to look beyond brochures and websites. Instead, make meaningful connections: talk to faculty, current students, and especially alumni in roles or industries you aspire to. Emily Dayton (UC San Diego) and Marcus Hanscom (Direct Development) stress the value of these conversations in revealing the actual culture of a program, typical career outcomes, and the lived experiences of people just like you.

The academic environment matters too, but it’s not the whole story. Paul Brandano (UCLA Anderson) and James Monahan (SIU Edwardsville) highlight the importance of evaluating curriculum, faculty engagement, and the level of rigor honestly—you want to be challenged, but also supported.

Location and atmosphere are also crucial elements. As Ben Webb (QS) and Santavaya Jordan (Vanderbilt University) point out, a program’s fit is not just about classes and credentials but also about the city or campus setting and the mental health resources available. Can you picture yourself thriving in this new environment?

Finally, don’t forget to be proactive! Reach out for more information, as Matt Bohlen (Carnegie) explains—it’s worth the extra effort to piece together what life as a student there truly looks like.

If you’re gearing up for grad school or supporting someone on that journey, this episode is packed with candid, actionable advice. Listen in for a wide range of perspectives and start charting your own path to graduate school success!

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in grad school. This week, we have a great opportunity to be able to learn from other enrollment management professionals. I recently attended the National Association of Graduate Admission Professionals or NAGAP. And at that conference, I spoke to a number of enrollment management professionals and individuals working within industry that are working with higher education about a number of questions to help you in the journey that you are on toward graduate school. This week's question was, what's one piece of advice you would give to students to help them better evaluate whether a program is the right fit academically, personally, or professionally. I hope that you enjoy the answers to this question and that it will help you on the journey that you are on.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:07]: Hi. This is Stacy Goldstein with UC San Diego at Rady School of Management with the master professional accountancy program. I work in our graduate department in admissions, and my big thing is being your cheerleader for my students. One piece of advice that I like to give is utilize the resources you have now and work backwards. What does that mean? If you're in school right now, you're getting career resources, have someone look at your resume. So utilize those connections, get to know your faculty. Sometimes they're board members or they sit or they still are a partner. Make those connections, not just LinkedIn, but get to know them.

Stacy Goldstein [00:01:42]: And what I mean by work backwards, then follow them on LinkedIn. What job do you wanna do? Look at their profile, see what they did for their graduate studies, see what types of jobs they got, and then that will gauge of which direction and which graduate school you choose. Go for the dream job.

Donna Wang Su [00:02:01]: My name is Donna Wang Su. I am the associate director for graduate admissions and financial aid at

Jamie Crampton [00:02:05]: Northwestern University, Medill School of

Donna Wang Su [00:02:05]: Journalism, Media, Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm Medill School of Journalism Media Integrated Marketing Communications. I'm a huge fan of strategic planning. So I think to do research, look at careers, jobs that you say to yourself, I could see myself doing that. And doing those kind of informational interviews with people and seeing, you know, what paths have taken them in that direction, whether it was the right mentorship, if it was the right degree, what was it part of the degree? Was it the network? Was it the curriculum? And kind of letting that guide their path there.

Santavaya Jordan [00:02:40]: My name is Santavaya Jordan. I am the engineering graduate recruiter at Vanderbilt University, and I recruit only for our graduate programs in engineering. One great thing I would say is looking at not just the school's ratings, but where the school is located and if you can be in that environment mentally. It's very important for your mental health when you're in a new environment, not only dealing with new people and experiences, but actually the other outlets within that area within the city for you to go to, resources that are on campus, resources that are off campus for your mental health. And that's extremely important, especially if you have other family factors or other life situations that may contribute to or may affect how you matriculate throughout your program.

Paul Brandano [00:03:23]: I'm Paul Brandano. I'm the executive director of the Master of Science in Business Analytics at UCLA Anderson. Personally, I'm thinking all the time about, first, who they are. So I've I've gotta get to know them quite well before I even begin to answer the question. It's pretty clear from our perspective that there's a certain baseline in a program like ours, which is highly quantitative. And so when we're looking for our fit, we're looking for someone who can swim, not sink. And that's academically, of course, in all the quantitative courses that they might take on with us, and they're quite diverse. So that could be a, you know, a math major, it could be an accounting major, it could be a finance major, undergrad, it could be a computer scientist or an engineer.

Paul Brandano [00:04:00]: But they've gotta have some common ability to manage the higher level math. Ideally, they will have taken multirabial calculus and linear algebra. And so if they do have those things, that starts the conversation. Because after that, you're really looking for how much of a fit are they going to be in the next phase of their life, which is their career. And they've just got a short window with us. I think the advantage of an MBA is that you get to be there a while. You get to evaluate for yourself what's the right path, where am I going, and perhaps choose one of those areas I was mentioning, finance, operations, etcetera. Here, we just know that they're going to be specialists and ideally have as broad a breadth of skill sets across those functional areas as possible so that they can, in their career, jump between marketing and finance, etcetera, or between industries.

Paul Brandano [00:04:43]: And so what I'm looking for and and and I'm evaluating them, they're evaluating us is, you know, how much of that do they have naturally? And when, you know, just like when you go to a conference or listening to a podcast, you're you're kind of moved more by a person who has that natural charisma, that x factor. And so we're definitely looking for that. Right? You know, is it if you've got those things that sort of stand out to everyone as they've got some magic in them, they're on my admit list. And I think in the middle, it's it's someone who can who has a few gaps to fill. And I think those are the ones, of course, who are gonna get the most from a program like ours. So it's really professional, personal, academic. They all kind of go together. I am looking for a scholar more than I'm looking for someone who just wants to get the job.

Paul Brandano [00:05:23]: I think that's really important because it says they're gonna be in it not from not just from me, but for the next phase.

Emily Dayton [00:05:31]: Hi. This is Emily Dayton. I am the senior director of the specialized master's admissions and recruitment at the Ravey School of Management at the University of California, San Diego. So my recommendation is to talk to alumni of the program. And if you can, alumni that have similar preprogram traits that are important to you. So maybe an undergrad major or institution, maybe work experience in the same industry or family or support network system. And after talking with them, think about if their experiences resonate with your own motivations for graduate school.

Tony Fraga [00:06:11]: Hey. It's Tony Fraga, CEO at Direct Development. We're a long time enrollment marketing company. I think of fit first aligning with what it is the outcome you have in your mind of what that success looks like for you. Because when we consider a program, we're actually have an idea. And I would say to you, what

Tony Fraga [00:06:30]: is it you have in your mind? I don't

Tony Fraga [00:06:30]: care how idealistic it is. You have a vision in your mind of you after you get a pro a degree and what you're doing. And I actually would start professionally first. I'm not saying academically and personally don't matter as much, but I actually would start there because I think that aligns with your vision for you went on this path because of a why. What's your why behind what you'd be looking at here? And you might have not have it all figured out, but you do have this idea in your head of, but I'd like to, I want to, I have a desire to, and you gotta stay rooted in that. I think if it's professionally aligned with your professional goals first, check that box. The next one I would go to is personally, over academically. Because personally, who are you and how do you learn? Do you really know yourself? Because I think a lot of us sometimes aren't honest with how we learn and what mode and kind of environment we're looking for.

Tony Fraga [00:07:20]: You may need to be around people more. An online program might not be good for you even though it sounds sexy. And so I think you need to be honest with yourself of honestly, what are your work habits? What are your learning habits? And if you're not honest with that, personally, how you operate, you're gonna sign up for a really cool program that could hit your professional goals, but that you stink at because it's not the right mode for you personally. And then academically, I think you need to be honest with a level of rigor, and looking at the professors and how it's taught, and what are the academics like at that institution. Is this gonna be a like high pace cranky through, but you gotta really be on it? You want a lot of hand holding? I think you need to look at the entire academic experience. Look at the professors, listen to them, listen to their podcasts, read their content. Do you like it? Can you learn from that? That's what I do next.

Adrian Peralta [00:08:10]: Hi, everybody. My name is Adrian Peralta. I'm part of the graduate admissions team at Kean University in Union, New Jersey. I, myself, am a graduate international special populations admissions counselor. Please evaluate your career path. That always is the first step. And always understand understand who your support systems are. That also helps you to kinda make that final informed decision.

Adrian Peralta [00:08:32]: Always ask questions and make yourself as available as you can be to people who may not be in your profession, but can help you, you know, understand all the different nuances of choosing the right grad program, but as well as selecting your mentors.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:08:50]: Jeremiah Nelson. I'm a faculty member at the Kettner School of Business at Catawba College and the MBA director. Visit. Don't rely on just the website. Talk to people and get to know the culture of the campus and the culture of the student body and the faculty. That helps a lot to make sure that it's a place that you can thrive. Ask a lot of questions. Don't be shy because people are really eager to tell you about their experiences.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:09:16]: So go out of your way to make some personal connections. I would also say check-in and find out about outcomes. Ask questions about where people are going, what kinds of, careers they're pursuing, and make sure that that's a good match for you. Because if there's a runway of alumni that are doing the thing that you want to do, there's a much greater likelihood that you're gonna land in a place that's gonna make you happy in the long run.

Naronda Wright [00:09:41]: Hello. I'm Naronda Wright. I service the associate dean of graduate student services at Jordan Southern University and also service the Nagat president. One, first, do your research on the program. Know what the admissions requirements are. What are the outcomes? What are the SLOs for a program to find out if it's a good fit for you. We think we want something, then we get into it, and we start taking classes and meeting with faculty and staff, and it's not what we want. So I think the biggest thing upfront for me is the biggest piece of advice is to do your research prior to even applying to a graduate program so you know what you're looking for, and you have a better outlook on your graduate program.

Irene Aiken [00:10:16]: I'm Irene Akin. I'm the Dean of the grad school at the University of North Carolina at Pembroke. First of all, they need to shadow someone who is in the field and speak with a lot of people who are in that field and with those credentials to see if that's the job that they want to do in the future.

Ray Lutsky [00:10:38]: Hey there. This is doctor Ray Lutzky, vice president for strategic partnerships at Element four fifty one, the AI driven student engagement platform. And one piece of advice I would give students to help them better evaluate whether a program is right fit academically, personally, professionally, is to get a vibe for how the faculty deal with the students. If there are ways to get great education but have a poor experience, And then there are opportunities to find mentorship and lifelong connections and career advice, and the faculty play a big role in that. I think that's one of the key advantages of the on campus experience today still over many online modalities, but I think that's important. And it's also interesting to think.

Matt Bohlen [00:11:25]: Alright. My name

Marcus Hanscon [00:11:26]: is Marcus Hanscomb. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at Direct Development and also spent about seventeen years working in college admissions in the graduate schools, talk to current students and faculty. It's a little extra effort, but it's worth it and actually getting some good value to hear about what kind of research is being undertaken, what kinds of outcomes they could expect for their programs. And it's really critical that you find a program that you're investing your time and money in to find that's a really good fit for you and ultimately gets you to the career goal that you have.

Sabrina Brown [00:11:55]: I'm Sabrina Brown. I work at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, and I am the director of graduate recruitment. It's truly taking the time to think about what's sort of going on in your world

Sabrina Brown [00:12:07]: as well as the goals or outcomes. Sometimes the goals

Sabrina Brown [00:12:08]: or outcomes for you or outcomes for you choosing your program is increased earning potential and very, like, nuts and bolts y, like, what can I do in my career? Sometimes it's what you're hoping to learn and just expanding your ability to learn about the things that you're passionate about or maybe it's expanding your legacy for your family. So really taking stock of that, but I also think taking stock of what's going on in your world and where those things intersect and are gonna pull on you so you can create the best support for yourself. So if you have a lot of competing priorities or passions, what is it gonna look like not just for you to have to sacrifice or make space for this new endeavor, but also the people around you and making sure that you're setting yourself up for success. I think websites and chatting with people and connecting with folks in your intended program is super helpful, but oftentimes prospective students forget themselves in the process when they're just looking at information gathering. So truly insert yourself, what you bring, and all that comes a part of your journey or will be a part of your journey in that evaluation process.

Addie Caudle [00:13:20]: My name is Addie Caudle. I'm the communications manager from Tarleton State University. Really look at the program, talk to current students that are in the program, talk to alumni, talk to faculty because ultimately you're gonna be tied to this program for a year, two years, depending on if it's a master's or doctoral program. And you really wanna make sure that this is going to fit what you want to do and what your goals are in life.

Melissa Yeung [00:13:45]: I'm doctor Melissa Young, director of student support and belonging at the school of physical and occupational therapy at Bowling Green State University. Do a deep reflection of what you need as a student, as a learner, depending on where you are in life. If you are someone who requires that faculty be readily on hand for you to just walk into their office and seek advice, then perhaps the hybrid program or an online program may not be a good fit for you. But if you're someone who's working full time and you just need to get into a degree program that you can finish quickly, then perhaps looking into an online program would be a good fit for you.

James Monahan [00:14:33]: I'm James Monahan. I'm the director of graduate and international admissions at Southern Illinois University Edwardsville. Number one, I would have them check on the school's website for the curriculum. I think you need to look at what classes you're going to be able to take and make sure it really fits with your interest because there's going to be slight differences from every school and you want something that you're really passionate about. So I would really suggest you go there. And one other thing I'll just add is that trust your instincts. Sometimes there's a school something just appeals to you about the school and that's actually okay and not a bad reason for choosing a program.

Ben Webb [00:15:12]: Hello. I am Jamie Crampton. I work for Gecko Engage, a software company in higher education headquartered out of Edinburgh. I also live in Edinburgh, Scotland. So I'm gonna answer these questions from the lens of The UK education sector, but hopefully, it's also applicable to The US as well. First of all, pursue your personal preferences, what you think you would enjoy studying. That's the most important factor, I think, in any decision on which program is the right fit. But take that with a pinch of salt and also consider the programs that are professionally going to benefit you as well.

Jamie Crampton [00:15:43]: I know when I was choosing my education path, I really wanted to do act acting or drama or things around that nature like my elder sister did. And the difficulty with that was we both loved that, but it was hard to get into a profession with a degree around that nature. And so I started looking at multiple types of courses that revolved around business, which was also a passion of mine. And somehow, I could incorporate my drama there as well, whether that be societies or clubs that were drama site is I could join as part of my business studies so I could continue my personal passion of drama, but then also have my professional passion of business so that I knew that I could be set up for success after my education. But ultimately, try and find the right balance between what you're personally gonna enjoy studying, but then also what's gonna set you up for success in the future.

Ben Webb [00:16:38]: Hello. My name is Ben Webb. I'm the executive director of The Americas for QS, which is a service that does international domestic recruiting, rankings, international performance, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I used to be on the admission side at at multiple schools across the country. There's a couple different sizes, an academic fit and there's a personal fit. Are you looking for a city atmosphere, a small college town? Where are you most comfortable? Because if you're comfortable there, you'll be able to enjoy it, you'll be able to study, you'll be able to focus. So I think that on the the personal side of it is, what type of atmosphere are you most comfortable in going to school? Large university, small university, class size. So I think that being able to understand, okay.

Ben Webb [00:17:11]: Well, what is the real class size I'm gonna have? Am I gonna have a TA? Am I gonna be actually meeting my true faculty member every day? Those are all some of the questions that you want us to find because you need to be in an atmosphere where you're not distracted, you're not concerned to be able to be relaxed enough to enjoy your education, but also perform at a peak level. I think that the career service teams at universities are obviously the the best place to go, but I think that

Matt Bohlen [00:17:37]: Hey, everybody. My name is Matt Bull, and I'm senior director of client success with Carnegie. I've been here about four years now. Before that, I worked about twenty years in higher ed, couple different institutions in the state of Michigan. Loved working in higher ed, but also I love helping higher ed as a consultant now too. I think the best piece of advice is don't be afraid to reach out. I mean, there's a lot of content on graduate programs websites, sometimes too much content, but it can be overwhelming. I would say don't be afraid to submit a form to receive more information, It takes more time, but it's invaluable.

Matt Bohlen [00:18:11]: And just spending so much time on the website kind of get confuses when you blur so many different programs together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Thinking about graduate school can sometimes feel overwhelming—especially if you’ve spent years building a career and are contemplating a return to the classroom. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Barb Whitney, an accomplished artist, educator, and arts administrator, to discuss her inspiring journey through graduate school and how it shaped her professional trajectory.

Barb’s story stands as a testament to the transformative power of lifelong learning and the value of embracing new challenges. After earning her undergraduate degree in art history from Kalamazoo College, Barb dedicated years to working in various roles in the arts. However, she reached a pivotal moment: to advance to the role of executive director, she realized further education was essential. With encouragement from mentors and a clear vision for her future, Barb made the courageous decision to pursue a Master of Arts in Arts Administration at the University of Michigan Flint.

In the episode, Barb discusses the unique blend of excitement and anxiety that came with returning to school after a significant gap. She candidly describes adapting to newer technologies, learning to ask for help, and finding the most effective ways to study in a graduate-level environment. Her openness about facing a steep learning curve—and conquering it—offers valuable reassurance to anyone wondering if they’re truly “ready” for grad school.

A key theme in Barb’s journey is the immense value of practical, real-world application. She simultaneously took on the role of executive director while pursuing her studies, creating an enriching feedback loop between classroom learning and workplace challenges. She also highlights how the University of Michigan’s reputation and rigorous curriculum opened doors for national fellowships, provided invaluable networking opportunities, and allowed her to tailor her education with field trips and independent study projects directly connected to her passions.

Barb’s advice for aspiring grad students is both practical and inspiring: seek out ways to fund your education (such as research fellowships), don’t hesitate to ask for support, and recognize the broad impact a graduate degree in the arts can have—not just on your career, but on your community. The arts, she reminds us, are powerful drivers of health, well-being, and creativity in every field.

Whether you’re considering grad school immediately after your undergraduate degree or after years in the workforce, Barb Whitney’s story is packed with wisdom and encouragement. Tune in to this episode of Victors in Grad School for a candid conversation filled with actionable advice and hope for anyone on a similar journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Because no matter where you are, as you are either looking at graduate school, thinking about graduate school, preparing for graduate school, or currently in graduate school, it is this continuum, this journey that you go from that first inkling of wanting to continue your education all the way to post graduation. And there are definitely things that you can do day in, day out to prepare yourself, but also to continue to work through the process of finding success in that journey. And that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:04]: Every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone to graduate school or are currently in graduate school that have figured this out for themselves. And everybody has to figure it out in different ways. What I'm trying to do with you is give you some of those tools ahead of time so you don't have to hit so many bumps along the road. So this week we've got another great guest. Barb Whitney is with us. And Barb is an artist, an educator, an administrator. She's done many different things in being a champion for the arts. And through her own experience, not only professionally, but through her education, she started her education at Kalamazoo College and got a Bachelor of Arts in Art History.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: And then after some years of working made a decision, made a decision to continue her education and getting a Master of Arts in Arts Administration. We'll talk more about that. But I'm really excited to have her here. Barb, thanks so much for being here.

Barb Whitney [00:02:06]: Thank you. I'm delighted to be with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Well, I am excited to have you. You and I have known each other for quite some time over our time working in the Lansing area. And as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate work at Kalamazoo College and you got that bachelor of arts degree in art and art history. And then you graduated and you went off, started getting some experience as an educator, as a program manager, as an administrator, working in the arts in many different ways. And at some point during that professional experience, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go back to school. Bring me back to that point. What was going through your head and what made you decide that you wanted to go back to get that graduate degree?

Barb Whitney [00:02:55]: I remember the day that I decided to apply. I had been thinking about it for some time. I was in a role working with the Arts Council of Greater Lansing, and I had this incredible boss, Leslie Donaldson, who would regularly ask us, what are you doing and what would you like to be doing as an artist, as an educator, as an administrator, and helped me to envision my potential for the future because I was able to articulate that I wanted to further my education. I started thinking about if I wanted to go beyond being a program manager, which I loved, what that might look like as an executive director, and I knew that I needed to go back to school for that. I found a few different programs that were master's programs in arts administration. And, you know, when I was in my undergrad research way back in the day thinking about colleges, I thought about Kalamazoo College and University of Michigan. And when I had seen the helicopter campus view for the Ann Arbor campus, I was a little intimidated, so I made my application to Kalamazoo College and did my undergrad that way. But then thinking about an advanced degree and knowing that there was a program at University of Michigan Flint, I went and scoped it out.

Barb Whitney [00:04:27]: Flint's a community I know somewhat, and went to that beautiful little coffee shop downtown and sat there and had coffee and had lunch. And I just thought, you know, I think I'm ready to make this big change. So within about six months, I had actually made my application to go back to school and been accepted and then gotten a job as an executive director. So I ended up doing my graduate studies at the same time as taking on a role as an executive director. So I did my first three years of being an ED. I was also in graduate school, and my board of directors was incredibly supportive of that time and really saw how much it enhanced our work together to be working in the field and to be learning at the same time using our work as case studies in the classroom and vice versa was really beneficial.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:20]: Now you kinda already mentioned this, but I guess I would love to get into your mind a little bit because there are there are many arts administration programs across the nation. You chose to go to the University of Michigan Flint, and I guess take me back to that point as you were thinking about where to apply, why to apply to that program. What made you ultimately choose the University of Michigan Flint as the program that you ended up with?

Barb Whitney [00:05:42]: I knew that I wanted to attend in person, and I'm about an hour away. So I figured if I was already in Lansing, which is about halfway from my hometown, that I could do that travel. So proximity was a factor, but I also knew that I wanted to have some prestige and cache to the work I do, and University of Michigan speaks volumes at the national level. So when I was thinking about doing things like national research fellowships, the University of Michigan name helped a great deal. I wanted something that was academically rigorous. So if I made the commitment to go back to school, I knew I wanted it to be difficult. I knew that was part of the calculus at the time, and I did find that. Doctor.

Barb Whitney [00:06:30]: Sarah Lippert was my advisor and was just exemplary in what felt like a million ways, but also very challenging. And that's part of what I've been looking for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: Now everybody that goes back to school and goes into a graduate degree goes through a transition. You went from undergrad, you had a I'm gonna say a wide gap between going to undergrad and going into graduate school. So you had a transition as well. Not only a transition from how you learned as an undergraduate student to how you were learning as a graduate student, but having to get yourself back into the mindset of being a student again. And you did find success in that journey. You graduated, you got that degree to prepare you for the work that you are doing and to help you in the work that you are doing. Talk to me about what did you have to do as you started in the program to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Barb Whitney [00:07:32]: I had to remember how to ask for help. I remember the first of the times we were working with doctor Lippert for a timed written exam. I thought I understood the assignment and thought I answered all the questions really well, and we got them back. And I remember doctor Lippert saying, would anyone like to retake the exam, Barb? And I said, yes, please. I'd like to retake the exam. And in the end, I did have, four point in my graduate courses. But those first few sessions, there was a a steep learning curve around many things. First of all, how to use the online systems.

Barb Whitney [00:08:23]: Second of all, the use of technology in the classroom or not. I showed up with my little laptop, and I thought I'd be typing notes, and that was gonna be the right way. But that wasn't actually always the right way. Some professors required handwritten notes because they know the research about retention. So some of it was just learning how to accommodate each different professor in terms of their needs and interests. And some of it was defining for myself what success looks like and then asking for what I needed during those times.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: So you completed that degree. And at the time you were an executive director working in an art space in the Lansing area. You were leading that work. And I'm sure that in the time that you were in the program, as you said, you were doing that work, and probably testing out some of the things you were learning from class into the work that you were doing. But talk to me about what you learned in that program, and how did it prepare you, not only for the work that you were doing then, but also the work that you do today?

Barb Whitney [00:09:21]: Oh, every step of the way, it was beneficial. The coursework ranged from revisiting art history, which is some of my background, to which actually offered us an international field trip to Toronto, which was incredible. One of the most memorable experiences of my schooling was a a field trip we all took to go see Toronto, and it was just remarkable, the camaraderie, the fellowship, the networking that it offered us through that process. But then also, I did do some nontraditional ways of working, which I think I've always done. When I was in undergrad, I took almost a year to travel with a national touring group, and it required some decision making and some thoughtfulness on the part of administration to allow for an exception. And U of M did that for me too. So I had an opportunity for a national research fellowship about arts education during my time at University of Michigan and learning and growing. And I said, Could I do this as part of my work with you? So they waived a grants course for me because I was writing grants and I was able to prove that I garnered several hundreds of thousands of dollars for Lansing Art Gallery and Education Center, where I was the executive director over the course of the previous couple of years.

Barb Whitney [00:10:41]: And then by waiving that, I was able to do an independent study that was a national research fellowship. And I don't know that every school would see the value in doing something so nontraditional as part of the work, but it ended up being that it dovetailed with my thesis as well, and that thesis continues to get traction. It's arts education as a fundamental right for youth in The United States. And so I see those when people read your thesis, you see it. And I get those notifications about people who are still using and citing my research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: That's always exciting to be able to have people reflecting back on work that you put so much time, effort into to be able to help the profession in some way. And I've had that same experience in work that I've done and things that I put out there. And when you get that ping that shows that someone's read it, you're like, Yay. So definitely I hear you and I feel that excitement that you have in that regard. Now, as you think back to the graduate education that you went through and you think about other people that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to other students? Whether it is going to someone that's going into the arts or something else, that could help them to find success sooner?

Barb Whitney [00:12:06]: I think if you have motivation to go back to school and you're thinking about doing it, there are many ways to make that possible. One thing I wished I had known about was a way to fund my education. My research that I mentioned helped me pay back my student loan within just a couple of years because I was receiving a stipend by doing my research fellowship. I didn't know fifteen years prior when I got out of my undergrad that I could do something like that. There are many ways of garnering resources that can help you go back to school to get your master's or to help you to go to school beyond your k 12 arts education experience. And then I would say too, if you're thinking about a career in the arts, it's so valuable to have a career in the arts because it offers you an opportunity to be with like minded people. We know some of the statistics about what the arts does for communities. It offers vibrant and thriving communities.

Barb Whitney [00:13:14]: It trains a dynamic workforce. When we look at creativity in the workforce and it being one of the top assets that employers are looking for, I think that just sort of undergirds the rationale for folks going back to school in the arts. We know that the arts offers better well-being and health in communities, and there are opportunities to go into sort of the arts and in so many different ways, the arts and healthcare, the arts and I mean, we know there are also lots and lots of creative opportunities and careers like architecture, any kind of music related career, and thinking about the ways that vibrant and thriving communities work, the arts are embedded in those efforts. So I think a career in the arts and the degree that are incredibly valuable. And I think a lot of cities and communities are recognizing that more and more too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:11]: Well, Barbara, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing the things that you learned and how you put them into place in your own professional career. And I truly wish you all the best.

Barb Whitney [00:14:24]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a transformative journey for many, but for Kevin Sellon, it became a bridge between his military service, personal challenges, and his passion for making a difference in the lives of others. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Kevin, a master’s student in public administration at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss his challenges and triumphs. Kevin shared invaluable insights about his decision to pursue graduate education, balancing life with a disability, and how his education empowered him for meaningful work in advocacy.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Kevin’s path to graduate school was shaped by personal and professional experiences. After earning his associate’s and bachelor’s degrees, Kevin expected the doors of opportunity to open wide, but his journey took an unexpected turn when a job offer was rescinded due to his military-related disability. This experience sparked Kevin’s resolve to better understand disability laws and advocate for others in similar situations. Supported by his family—particularly his wife—Kevin decided to pursue his long-standing goal of earning a master’s degree. His choice also resonated with his passion for helping others, finding new purpose after military service, and advocating for the rights of individuals with disabilities.

Selecting the Right Program Choosing the University of Michigan Flint was both strategic and serendipitous for Kevin. After considering a few options, including Grand Valley State University, he was elated to receive his acceptance letter from U of M Flint. He admired the institution’s academic excellence and flexibility, especially its distance-learning programs, which suited his needs both as a nontraditional student and an individual with a service-related disability. For Kevin, gaining acceptance felt like the beginning of a dream fulfilled—a step closer to achieving his master’s degree.

Adapting to Graduate School Life Kevin’s journey back into academia posed challenges, especially after an educational gap and balancing family, work, and school commitments. To set himself up for success, Kevin emphasized time management and self-care. By taking small, consistent steps—such as dedicating even fifteen minutes a day to projects—and allowing time to digest information, Kevin found ways to stay motivated. He highlighted the importance of stepping back to recharge, spending time with loved ones, and not overwhelming oneself with too much at once. These strategies helped him navigate the complexities of graduate education.

Disability Advocacy and Professional Growth As an employee of Disability Advocates of Kent County, Kevin directly applies what he learns in his master’s program to his role. He educates both employers and individuals about ADA laws, ensuring mutual understanding and compliance. Beyond this, Kevin is spearheading a veteran-focused program where he assists veterans in managing their care and remaining in their homes—a fitting endeavor given his background and passion. His education has enhanced his ability to view problems holistically, process complex information, and meaningfully contribute to his organization.

Advice for Future Graduate Students Kevin emphasized the importance of seeking personal growth, even when faced with adversity. For individuals with disabilities, he encouraged them to take that leap into graduate education, as their unique perspectives are vital in advocacy and policy-making. Additionally, Kevin advised approaching large projects step by step and leveraging support networks, whether through family, mentors, or university resources.

Kevin’s story demonstrates the profound impact of determination, resilience, and education. By leaning into his passion for advocacy and persevering through challenges, he’s carving a new path of service and empowerment. His journey offers a valuable roadmap for anyone considering graduate school as a means of turning their personal experiences into actionable change for others.

Call to Action: To learn more about graduate opportunities at the University of Michigan Flint, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms. And remember—your journey can lead to purpose and impact, just as Kevin’s has.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the victors in grad school podcast. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being able to be on this journey with you. And I call it a journey because it is a journey and you have made a choice. You've made a choice to start either start thinking about graduate school. You've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:39]: Maybe you're in graduate school right now, and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you're on a journey. It's a continuum that you're going to be going through to be able to take those steps one day at a time as you're working toward the goals that you've set for yourself. And that's why this podcast exists. I am so excited to have you here today to be able to help you on this journey because there are things that you can do right now, as you're listening, as you leave our conversation today, to be able to take those micro steps or macro steps that'll help you along that path to help you define success as you work toward that graduate degree. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences to be able to allow you to learn from what they've learned. And it could be positive things. It could be negative things too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: We'll be honest. Graduate schools can sometimes be challenging, can be hard. And that's another reason for that, for our conversations every week is that we want to keep it real. We want to have opportunities for you to be able to learn from what others have learned as well. And today we've got another great guest. Kevin Sullen is with us today. And Kevin is a current public administration student at the University of Michigan Flint. He has worked for many years with disability services and continues now working on his graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: And to get there, though, he got his first associate's degree at Tacoma Community College and then went on to the Evergreen State College to get his Bachelor of Arts while also being in the military and serving The US. And I'm really excited to be able to talk with him about his own journey, which led him to graduate school to help you on your journey. Kevin, Kevin, thanks so much for being here today.

Kevin Sellon [00:02:39]: Thank you for having me, doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:40]: It is my pleasure to have you here today. Really excited to be able to talk to you. And first and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. So I want to go back. I said that you were in the military and I thank you for your service and I want to go back. I said that you got your associate's degree and your bachelor's degree out on the West Coast. And at some point after you got that bachelor's degree, after you left the military, you made a choice that you wanted to go back to graduate school. Bring me back to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:15]: And what was going through your head and what made you decide that going to graduate school was the right choice at that point in time in your life?

Kevin Sellon [00:03:24]: Well, when I look back at it, when I graduated with my bachelor's degree, I thought everyone's gonna be standing there with opportunities here. Take this. Take this. And I found it kind of that next purpose, I guess you could say. And the education that I received from Evergreen State College was leadership, entrepreneurship, and that was kind of the focus of that arts degree. And so I looked around a little bit and decided, well, I'm gonna try to get a a position with this company. I'll just keep it with that. And two weeks before I was to start training for this company, they revoked my offer of employment based strictly on the disability that I had from the military.

Kevin Sellon [00:04:06]: So at the time, I didn't know any organization like Disability Advocates of Kent County existed. So I had my journey of trying to prove a point. It was was the main thing. I was trying to prove to this organization that the Americans with Disability Act isn't just a policy, something that can be pushed away or anything like that. It's law. And why is it that it's so difficult for that to be followed for some employers? So my journey led me back to Michigan where I'm originally from after retiring out of the military. And while here, I I was working for another company as an expediter, and I decided my personal goal in life was to at least achieve a master's degree. So I just brought it up to my wife because I knew it was gonna be a strenuous journey at times.

Kevin Sellon [00:04:55]: So I brought it up with her, and she, of course, was very supported, and that was really my deciding factor on having her support while I take this journey. And while in the graduate school, I attended a class with professor Sachs on disability law and, the disability policy. Once I took that class, I just had this revelation, I guess you could say, of the same thing happened to me. And, again, I really got a deep dive into the law, and I forced myself to learn as much as I could. And then that's when I found Disability Advocates also that the position here that I have is as an ADA compliance, I guess you could say, employment assistant, I guess you could say. Because what we do is when people come in here and they have an issue with accommodation or something like that, I help educate the employer as well as the consumer that comes in to talk to me on what their rights are and what the employer's responsibilities are. Because it's not just also to protect the person with disability, but it also does protect the employer as well. So I try to work together educating those two, and that's what led me to this passion.

Kevin Sellon [00:06:04]: I really because it's a great law. It's been amended in 02/2008. However, I believe it does need a little bit more, I guess, for lack of a better word, a little more punch, you know, because it's so easy for employers to kind of get around that. And people, again, like I said, really don't know their rights when it comes to accommodations and whatnot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: So you've now been in the program for a little bit of time. And as you decided to go to graduate school, you probably did some research. You looked around, you tried to determine what was going to be the best fit for you, and you ultimately did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint, and you are attending via distance. So talk to me about that process for yourself and what made you ultimately decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint?

Kevin Sellon [00:06:57]: Well, if I was gonna get into a graduate school, I wanted it to be one that was noted as one of the best, if not the best. So, of course, being from Michigan, I know I saw that the University of Michigan, University of Michigan Flint were top, you know, with some of the top, schools when it came to public administration. So I decided, well, I'll send my application to the U of M Flint, and I probably won't get accepted just being the person that I am. And so I my backup plan was Grand Valley State. So those were the two schools that I was kinda looking at. Well, to my surprise, as I was getting my packet prepared for Grand Valley State, I got my acceptance to U of M Flint. And, to be honest with you, that the elation I was able to feel and, I guess, shock because, again, I had that negative kind of that I wasn't smart enough. I didn't think I was smart enough to attend the University of Michigan, but they believed in me.

Kevin Sellon [00:07:54]: So that was my decision. And to be able to get the first school for graduate school to accept you, to me, is just like, it was a present. It's like a great Christmas present that I could have gotten that I was able to realize the light at the end of the tunnel for my dream. You know, I actually coming true of having that master's degree and then also finding another purpose after the military where I can still continue to help people. That's, I think, the main thing, and working for a nonprofit was probably the best thing for me to do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:25]: So you you found the program that you wanted to attend. You decided to go to the University of Michigan Flint. And as you transition into graduate school, this is a transition. And it had been a number of years since you had done your associates work, your bachelor's work, you went, you worked, you had your career in the military, you did some other work outside of that as well. And so there's, there was this education gap, right? You made this, you had to kind of get back into the mindset of being a student, as well as being able to be an employee at the same time and balancing family and work and school and all of those things. So talk to me about as you made that transition into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the journey that you've been on in graduate school so far?

Kevin Sellon [00:09:21]: Well, to prepare for it, it was really me doing a little bit a little bit additional reading and whatnot on what I could find about the public administration. And then, of course, trying to decide what I wanted to my focus to be. And my focus as a public administrator would be, like, social and public policy. That was my deciding factor that I wanted to be a part of, just basically based off of what the ADA said. So I did a little bit of research there. I had a lot of back and forth with Helen Budd, who is the veterans representative at the Flint. And she what I found out, actually, got her degree from there, her MPA from the University of Michigan Flint as well. So to have her answer questions that I had from the nontraditional student that I believe I was coming in as a little older than some of them that were there, and she helped kinda settle my nerves when it came to that because she also had the same feelings when she went into grad school because she had a short period of time between her bachelor's and her master's as well.

Kevin Sellon [00:10:24]: And then, I decided to sign up for the mentee program to be assigned a mentor who had already been through, who could have been graduated already just to kind of because initially, again, like I said, I hadn't quite decided to work in the disability field, advocacy field. So, you know, just to find out where I should start looking for experience because that was the one thing that I felt might slow down my next career is I was getting the education, but how was I gonna get the experience? And that does lead to a lot some issues when it comes to employment. So I started volunteering around the community here in West Michigan and eventually turned into an internship at Disability Advocates, and then I get was hired full time. So and then to keep motivated through graduate school, for me, the motivating factor was having that support of my family and then being able to utilize what I was learning in the classes at my job because I started seeing the correlation between the two, how I could speak to the director and understand the finances that happen when it comes to a nonprofit or how to properly utilize research that I'm doing for the for the organization and how to address people with issues and also kinda snapping into that professional realm that I'm in now, problem solving and things like that. So

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:45]: so you're currently going through the program, you see that light at the end of the tunnel. And you're utilizing what you're learning in the program in this new career that you're in in this full time position as a disability advocate working for disability advocates in West Michigan. Talk to me about how you feel that the graduate degree has helped you, has prepared you for what you do on a daily basis.

Kevin Sellon [00:12:11]: The help that I received pursuing my degree has been almost immeasurable, to be honest with you. I mean, the way that I I'm able to look at even, say, the news. You know, the news can be pretty tumultuous at times and frustrating sometimes when you're watching news and world events and things like that. The ability to look at it though from public administrator standpoint and some things I can understand. You know, I know it was frustrating before, but now it's kinda like decoding, say, for instance, what the government is doing altogether. And using it here, it's actually benefited me in the fact that, again, I'm able to look at have a holistic view of somebody's problems that when I bring it up to the organization, they decided, since I am a veteran, that they were gonna try to take on a new program and which was to also assist with veterans. So we are starting up I'm gonna be the first veteran direct care counselor, options counselor that we're gonna have here at disability advocates because my director has the confidence just in conversation that we've had since starting here, and he sees the growth also and what I'm able to articulate. And so they were like, here's this program.

Kevin Sellon [00:13:26]: We're gonna give it to you. And, basically, what that program does is I sit down with a veteran, and they're given a budget from the VA. And it allows them to stay in their homes instead of being moved to a veteran's home or nursing home of some sort. So it allows them to decide their care, who their caregivers are gonna be, and then they become an employer. And they employ the person that that is gonna take care of them. It's called the veteran directed care, and I couldn't be more proud to even further my dream to help society, but also including the veteran that are part of that, especially them, and kinda get back to where I came from.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:07]: Well, congratulations on that. That's so exciting. And I look forward to hearing what happens next as that moves forward and as you continue to hone that and to to engage with veterans in West Michigan and beyond. Now, as you think about the graduate education that you've gone through thus far and you're going through currently, and you look back at the time that you've been in this and been working through it, and you think back to that, the transitions as well as the journey itself, What are some tips that you might offer other students, other people, whether they're thinking about a graduate degree in public administration or some other degree? What are some tips that you might want to offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Kevin Sellon [00:14:54]: The number one thing that I I personally had to learn also is taking time for yourself and just taking that step away even though because graduate school can seem I don't wanna say overwhelming because if you have your time scheduled out, time management is down. You just kinda take a step away and be with those that are important to you. And that was my main thing is as much as I kept wanting to read because, again, I wanna be a part of the discussions that each of the classes held, and I wanna contribute to class time and whatnot. So I would read, but then I also had to remember that while the sun's out or not, but it's time to take the dog for a walk. And you go out and just kinda get away and try not to inundate yourself with too much information that it gets lost. Like, for me, if I take in too much, I learned from my associates when I was studying to be an x-ray technician at that time, my anatomy class, I would study and study and study so much that it would almost feel like your head's gonna explode, but it's because I hadn't quite learned at that point how to step away. There is a time that I need to kind of digest what I just read or learned and then step back into it. And then also, another thing is even if it's fifteen minutes working on a project or something like that to give yourself peace of mind while working on a project through a semester, just take it in little steps.

Kevin Sellon [00:16:18]: Don't look at the big picture. Just take it in steps, refine it, move to the next step, refine it, and then move to the next step. That's kinda how I broke it down for myself because if I looked at the big picture, it could seem overwhelming at times.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:31]: Now one more thing that I wanted to ask before we finish up today is earlier you talked about the fact that, you know, you went through your own struggles throughout your education after the military, you know, not only with work and disability, but I'm sure that there was some challenges when it goes to education and going back to school and going to school with a disability as well. So talk to me about that and what you had to do to be able to balance your disability that you came out of your military service with, how that may have impacted your own education and what you might say to other students that may have disabilities that may be questioning, should I go to graduate school? Should I challenge myself in this way? You know, is it going to be too hard to be able to go through this educational process with this disability?

Kevin Sellon [00:17:22]: Well, first, I would say that to those with with disabilities, if you're thinking about graduate school, do it. I would say because you are a part of the community. And as we all know, any one of us at any time could be a part of the disabled community just with one wrong left turn. So I believe that we need more advocates that are that have various disabilities because, again, you can't lump it into one group because there's such a wide variety of it. And being a part of that and representing your place in society to promote this awareness and whatnot when it comes to employment, when it comes to transportation or education. We need more people in it to help advocate for the people that just don't seem to think that there's anything else out there. And as far as for me to get through my disability, again, that was part of the challenge for me was, I've I had to read things a few times due to, you know, possible TBI or or few hits to the head or whatever while I was in the military. And so they took a few times, and, again, it's just digesting what you have and taking your time.

Kevin Sellon [00:18:30]: And then that's why I have the headphones also is for my hearing. It helps me to actually hear when I'm on Zoom calls and phone calls even when I make that, actually hear when I'm on Zoom calls and phone calls even when I make that too. And which is why I think it was actually beneficial to take the courses at a distance also because I can turn it up or turn it down as I need to to hear the instructor a little better. Whereas, you know, when I was in person, I'd have to use my age old hearing aids and keep them turned up so I could hear. And sometimes those aren't easy to hear with either. So it just helps me with this, finding or even, like, searching, doing a Google search or whatever you wanna do of ways to alleviate something when you're taking a class. And just the opportunity to come to University of Michigan Flint, even through distance learning, I mean, I was so happy for the opportunity. Just instead of being stuck with universities, I shouldn't say stuck with, but having a limited choice of places to go to school due to locations or anything like that.

Kevin Sellon [00:19:29]: So I had plenty of practice because when I went through Evergreen State, it was during COVID. So the whole class schedule there was, of course, distance learning. So that kinda gave me a lot of practice for grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:40]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. I know you've been talking a lot about disability advocates of Kent County. If people wanna find out more about that, about you, where should they go?

Kevin Sellon [00:19:50]: I mean, if you wanna call us, actually, it's (616) 323-1100. That gets us our front desk, but we do have a site that's just being updated now by our great media team and, disabilityadvocatesdakc.com.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:06]: Well, Kevin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for the work that you're doing to help veterans, to help others with disabilities. Thank you for sharing your story today, and I wish you all the best.

Kevin Sellon [00:20:16]: Okay. Thank you so much, doctor, and have a good day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Unlocking Success in Graduate School and Beyond Graduate school is often described as a journey filled with challenges, growth, and triumphs. For Dr. Amber Schlemmer, a physical therapist and alumna of the University of Michigan Flint's Doctor of Physical Therapy (DPT) program, her path to success was anything but traditional. In a conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Schlemmer shared insights into her decision to pursue graduate school, the obstacles she overcame, and the critical lessons she learned.

Finding the Right Path Unlike many graduate students, Dr. Schlemmer didn’t immediately decide to pursue further education following her undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. A few years into her career as a personal trainer and strength coach, she realized that her scope of practice was limited when working with patients recovering from multi-trauma injuries. This sparked her interest in physical therapy, and through careful self-reflection, she determined this field aligned with her passion for understanding human capacity and rehabilitation. For prospective graduate students, her story underscores the importance of embracing life experiences and listening to your professional instincts when deciding to further your education.

Overcoming the Nontraditional Student Challenge Dr. Schlemmer’s decision to attend the University of Michigan Flint was influenced by her role as a nontraditional student. With a young family and deep roots in her community, relocating for a graduate program was not an option. She praised the proximity and high-quality faculty at U of M Flint, calling her program a “necessity” that ultimately became one of her biggest blessings. For students in similar scenarios, proximity, supportive faculty, and realistic planning can be key in managing academics and personal responsibilities.

Lessons to Thrive in Graduate Programs Graduate school demands a significant adjustment, requiring new habits and dedication. To succeed, Dr. Schlemmer emphasized effective study techniques and embracing the grueling pace of her courses. Her late-night study sessions at a 24-hour McDonald’s highlight the importance of resilience and time management. Dr. Schlemmer believes that excelling in graduate school goes beyond academics—it’s about forming critical thinking skills and learning to apply principles flexibly.

The Value of Practical Experience Dr. Schlemmer credited her clinical rotations for shaping her into the physical therapist she is today. Through real-world challenges and mentorship, she emerged with newfound confidence in critical thinking and decision-making within the profession. For future students, Dr. Schlemmer encouraged taking advantage of internships to explore diverse perspectives that enrich long-term career growth.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Dr. Schlemmer offered sage advice: do thorough research before applying to programs, maintain a well-rounded perspective, and remain adaptable as professional interests evolve. Graduate school may feel overwhelming at its peak, but she reassures students that the light at the end of the tunnel is worth the hard work.

A Worthwhile Journey As Dr. Christopher Lewis aptly described, graduate school is “a blip” in the grand timeline of one’s life, but it is a transformational journey that prepares students for lifelong success. Dr. Schlemmer’s story stands as a testament to resilience, adaptability, and the rewards that come with pursuing your passions. For aspiring graduate students, her journey serves as inspiration to embrace both the challenges and possibilities that lie ahead.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, I love being able to sit down and talk to you, work with you as we work through this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. No matter if you are just starting to think about maybe I want to do this graduate school thing or you've applied, maybe you've gotten accepted, maybe you're in graduate school and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do to prepare yourself to be successful in that journey, no matter where you are in that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: So that's why every week I love being able to have these conversations with you, to sit down with you, to talk with you, and to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have been able to go through graduate school themselves and have found success in that journey for themselves. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor. Amber Schlemmer is with us today. And, Amber is a graduate of the doctorate of physical therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did she ended up doing her undergraduate degree at Michigan State University. And then, as I said, got a clinical doctorate at the University of Michigan Flint. We'll talk about that here in just a moment.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:29]: But I'm really excited to have her here and to have her share some of her experiences with you. Amber, thanks so much for being here today. Thank

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:01:37]: you for having me, Christopher.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here. And first and foremost, one of the things that I love being able to do is turning the clock back in time. I have the power.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:01:50]: I'd love to do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:51]: Yes. So So we're gonna go back in time. And I said that you did your undergraduate work at Michigan State University. And at some point during that time that you were there, you made a decision, you made a decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to get another degree. You wanted to go to graduate school. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:02:14]: So, actually, funny story. It was not during my time at Michigan State that I decided to go to graduate school. So, as a matter of fact, as I was going through my program at, Michigan State, I was that I was a a a strength and conditioning coach for, Olympic sports at Michigan State. And so I absolutely loved what I did. I had full intentions of becoming either a a strength coach or remaining a personal trainer like I was because I absolutely love the so passionate about the the human capacity and what I saw those athletes do and grow into. And so I was very set that graduate school wasn't for me, and I was going to continue along the path that I set out with my undergraduate degree. And so it wasn't until about three or four years after I graduated actually when I was working as a personal trainer and I started to take on some more multi trauma patients, some auto accident patients who had had sustained an automobile accident and had some kind of ongoing physical impairments. And so I quickly realized that my scope of practice was kind of being exceeded, and there's a lot more to know out there than, you know, what I was giving these patients at the time.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:03:11]: And so that's kind of what started the gears turning for me a little bit about what else is out there. Maybe I do wanna consider doing something else, and I dabbled with PA and pharmacy and decided ultimately that, physical therapy was the most logical continuation of what I was doing. And it wasn't too far away from being able to experience that, the potential in the human capacity. And so that's kind of where I set out when I started to realize that there was a lot more to know than what I knew, and I wasn't happy with what I knew.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:37]: Now as you started to realize that and you started to figure out that there was more that you wanted to know, you decided that you wanted to apply to become a physical therapist, to be going into a clinical doctorate program in physical therapy. And there's a number of different programs throughout the state of Michigan and beyond that you could have selected from. And you ultimately did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Bring me back to that point of that search process for yourself, that application process for yourself. What made you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was where you wanted to attend?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:04:15]: So I have a little bit of a different backstory. I was what you might consider a nontraditional student. So at this time, I had just had my son, who was my second. And so as I was deciding to go back to grad school because I hadn't planned on it previously, there's a couple of prerequisites that I needed. And so I I took them at U of M Flint, and I loved the campus. I loved the, you know, the classes. The professors were great there. And so you're right.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:04:37]: The DPT programs in in Michigan and really across the nation are pretty competitive. And so the law of averages states that you should apply to multiples, and I'd say upwards of, like, five to 10. Well, because I was this nontraditional student, proximity was very important to me. I had my home, my family, and unfortunately, we were not able to uproot ourselves and move to any of these programs across the state or across the nation. And so I put all of my eggs in the U of M Flint basket because I really appreciated the school, obviously, the location. I'm from a small town near Flint, called Flushing. And so, it's a fifteen, twenty minute drive for me. Right? And so as I started to apply to the different programs, I will say that I put my name in in the hat for at least two others just to kind of get my feet wet and understand what, you know, different programs are looking for, but I knew for sure that I wouldn't be able to, you know, accept those acceptances.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:05:25]: And so, U of M Flint was the the place for me, and I am so grateful. I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason, because I don't know if you know the statistics, but there's quite a few humans that don't get in the first time when they apply for for PT school. Right? And so I'm very fortunate to say that I was able to be accepted the first round and the stars had aligned, and I was able to begin the program. And so for me, it was unfortunately not so much a a choice as a a necessity, but, boy, did it work out for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:50]: So as you go into a new educational environment for you, you had been out of school for a little bit of time. Now you're coming back into school. So there is a transition. There's a transition into graduate school. And then as you go along and through that graduate program, there are small transitions when you're going from year one to year two to year three and the expectations a little bit different as you go from term to term and what you're being expected to be able to do, to be able to prove to your faculty members to show that mastery within the subject area. So talk to me about, and you did find success in all of those different transitions. You ended up graduating, you got your degree, you've become a physical therapist. You've been out in the field for a number of years now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:34]: So as you think back to those transitions that you went through, what did you have to do as you were transitioning into the program to find success? And what did you have to do as you were going through the entirety of the program to maintain that success within graduate school.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:06:51]: I will say I'm one of those fortunate humans who in high school I don't tell my 17 year old daughter this place. Through high school, I was never really one of those ones that needed to study a whole lot. School and academics kind of came naturally to me. I'm very fortunate to be able to say that, and I do realize even my time at Michigan State, it laid the foundation and the the habit forming, the habit development, in terms of, like, studying and, you know, preparedness. But boy, does it not hold a candle to graduate school and the and particularly the DBT program. So transitioning into the program was really not all that difficult. I was taking undergraduate level prerequisite courses. And so to me, that was just kind of par for the course.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:07:25]: I was used to that. I say all the time that I would be a forever student if there were any money in it. If I could go to school for the rest of my life, I would love that. But getting you know, once I was in the program, I will say that it it was kind of a good dose of reality, really, if I'm being honest, because DPT programs tend to front load some of their academics and, you know, front load some of their what turned out to be some of their tougher courses, your anatomy or physiology or kinesiology, some of your your higher, more advanced topics. And I would like to say, number one, to set the stage for the rest of your, you know, academic career, but also to kind of weave those friends out that maybe aren't as strong in those those areas because that's exactly what we do, you know, a % of our time as physical therapists. And so that first semester was definitely a little bit of a culture shock for me. I think I had stacks and stacks of note cards because this was before a computer generated all of these lovely study guides and and study aids and whatnot. So I handwrote all of my note cards.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:08:18]: I was studying more than I ever had in the past, obviously, but, yeah, this came with a little bit of a a nontraditional path for me. So I would get home, you know, make the kids dinner, go through our bedtime routine, get them to bed. And then in Flushing, the only thing that's open twenty four hours is a local McDonald's. And so I would go and have a a cup of decaf coffee and stay there till two or 03:00 in the morning. And boy, do you get to see some pretty interesting things at that time while you're back there studying. And so I think the biggest, transition for me really was just kind of the meat and potatoes of the the course load, especially in those first couple semesters. But once you have that foundation built, it makes for great success down the road in the program because that's where the, you know, the courses start to become a little bit more niche and dedicated towards, you know, pathways that you intend to take. So they're just a lot more focused, I guess, and less advanced concepts, more critical thinking, if you will.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:09:07]: And and if I'm being honest, that's where I really appreciate my time at U of M Flint because I feel like they made really great clinicians out of us, giving us that ability to critically think and kind of think outside the box a little bit, not just follow the textbook, not just I say all the time in my my clinic that patients and their their impairments don't often read the textbook. Meaning, it's not like a list of impairments or a list of conditions. Right? That's you know, we have comorbidities that play a role and lifestyle behaviors that play a role in how patients present. And so it was a great skill to have to be able to think outside the box a little bit more, and I can certainly thank my professors for that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:39]: You know, as you think back to graduate school, there are things that you learn along the way that prepare you for the work that you do. And you're in a career area that is kind of lockstep in regard to you're studying to be a physical therapist, you become a physical therapist and you learn in the program, leads you to being able to do what you're doing. But there's also things that you learn within a program that may not be the tangible things that you're doing on a daily basis. So as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about the work that you're doing now on a day to day basis, how did that graduate degree prepare you for the next steps? And were there any things that you had to learn beyond graduate school that you did not learn that you wish you had learned in graduate school?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:10:21]: So I will say that the especially the U of M Flint DPT program trained me very well to be a well rounded clinician. Right? And this is obviously one of those professions that you have to have a license, you have to have a degree in that profession in order to practice. And so they they certainly did their job in terms of curriculum, making sure that students were prepared before they went out in their clinical, internships, the rotations. I will say that I think outside of the nuts and bolts that were learned in the program itself, the three ten week clinical rotations that we did, I think were absolutely integral. And for me specifically, I had one clinical instructor for my last rotation who really challenged me. And I will say, I went home after almost every single day of this clinical rotation just a level of exhaustion that you can't imagine. Right? There's a different level of physical and and mental exhaustion. This was literally everything.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:11:12]: And so I had never really experienced that, but it was because she was really challenging me and making me critically think about why we're choosing every single exercise and what that's gonna do for this patient and why it's so important for this patient. Because if we get two hours a week with this patient, which is more than most medical professions can tell, we have a really great opportunity to make a pretty big impact on their lives and certainly on their pain or injury status. So I'm really appreciative of not only the faculty, but those humans that continue to host students and teach the next generation of physical therapists. We we actually currently, have two in our clinic right now at primary prevention, and so hopefully, they're getting the best experience as well. So I will say the clinical rotations were great. Throughout the program, I will say that I knew I wanted to open my own practice. I knew that, you know, I didn't wanna work for one of the bigger companies that, you know, productivity is the standard and we're, you know, looking for, you know, how many patients we can see an hour and not the outcomes or how much better we can make that patient. And I will say, disclaimer, not every single clinic is like that, but we've had our experiences.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:12:11]: Right? So throughout the program this was in our last year of the program. The curriculum since changed a little bit since I've been there, but we had to take a management class, so business management class. Throughout that class, we had to create a business plan. We had to do a full proforma. We had to basically create a clinic. And so I looked at my group who no one else had intentions of opening their own clinic. And I looked at my group and I said, do you guys think it's okay if we do this for, like, Flushing, Michigan area for my clinic? I'll give you all the information. And so we can sit down and create this.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:12:38]: To me, it's much more tangible than a hypothetical clinic that we're about to create. Right? And so a little bit of strategy there in terms of my classmates help me write my business plan. Right? But ultimately, learning more about what it means to be a private practice owner and how that differs from being your clinical PT, basically. I will say I'm very much a PT first, very much a businesswoman second, but I'm learning quite a bit. And I and I appreciate that course for what it taught me in in terms of making sure that I had my ducks in a row before I really launched this beast that we've opened here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Now as you think back to your graduate school experience and you think about other students, whether they're going into physical therapy or some other area, what are some tips that you might offer those individuals thinking about graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:13:25]: Number one, I would say do your research, be prepared. Each clinical program offers something a little bit different. I chose, you know, U of M Flint for proximity reasons, of course, but like I said, boy, did that work out for me in terms of, I had some of the best faculty working under doctor Amy York and doctor Ryan Bean. And, you know, while I was there, doctor Tom Rudiger was there. And, oh my goodness, I'm I'm leaving out a few, so please don't don't hold me to just those humans. But we have a really, really great faculty there. So be prepared. Do your research.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:13:57]: Make sure that that program is where you see yourself in five to ten years in terms of their strengths and what they're touting throughout their program. Ultimately, though, what we said throughout our program was, hey, get the degree first. Right? And then we'll kind of decide where we wanna be. It's okay to kind of narrow your focus as you go through school, but maintaining that ability to be well rounded and not have a specific niche coming right out of school will allow you that opportunity to see physical therapy from quite a few different lights. Right? And so it will keep you from being stuck in that first job if that's how you feel. Right? I think the statistic is that, you know, eighty percent of new grads stay in whatever field or whatever, you know, pathway they took directly out of school. So if you start as an outpatient orthopedic physical therapist, you're likely gonna stay there for your career. Right? If you started as a neurotherapist, you're obviously gonna try to stay there for your career.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:14:45]: It just allows you to be a little bit more, I don't know, niche and focused once you get out of school. But coming out of school, try things. Go to those clinics where you're able to see a a wide patient caseload just so you can start to pick up on trends and, like I said, see things from a little bit of a different lens. During school or, you know, after the application process, after you've been accepted, you've been accepted into a graduate program. Graduate programs are not easy. They're not intended to be easy. They're intended to make the best of the humans that set out to become part of that profession. And so while it seems like there's no light at the end of the tunnel, while it seems like in the especially in the first couple semesters that this is a level of challenge that you maybe have never really seen in your life.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:15:24]: Know that, boy, is it worth it. And as long as you put your head down, you get to work, you do the work, you know, you really try to learn things from a deeper perspective, and it's gonna pay off in the end. And there certainly is light at the end of the tunnel. It's it's a short three years, believe it or not.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]: It definitely is a short period of time. And I always tell students that it that graduate school is definitely a blip. And as you go through that education, you wanna take as take as much out of it as you can because it's a period of time where you can explore, you can try things, you can do things that once you dive into your career, you may not be able to do. So taking full advantage of all of the opportunities that exist and are provided to you is so important. Agreed. Well, I truly want to say thank you, Amber, for being here today, for sharing your experience and for all that you're doing to help people in your own community and being a great representative of our program out in the world. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Amber Schlemmer [00:16:23]: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Inclusive excellence is redefining the landscape of higher education, emphasizing the intentional and purposeful work that fosters diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in every corner of academia. Dr. Juanita Tookes, in conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, brings to light the multifaceted aspects of inclusive excellence (IE) and its transformative potential on campuses. Here’s a deeper dive into the key takeaways from their enlightening discussion.

Defining Inclusive Excellence: The Foundation of Inclusion Dr. Tookes articulated IE as “consistent efforts to advance diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging in post-secondary education.” Diversity captures the richness in human differences, equity ensures resources are tailored to individual needs, inclusion fosters empowerment and acceptance, and belonging extends inclusion to form deep, authentic connections. Together, these components create a cohesive and supportive environment in higher education.

IE is more than just a concept. It is the seam that ties the entire fabric of a collegiate institution together. Much like a well-constructed garment that fits impeccably, an inclusive campus environment makes every student feel seen, valued, and heard.

IE in Action: Where Inclusion Finds its Voice on Campus Dr. Tookes highlighted the presence of IE in three fundamental areas—policies, practices, and pedagogy. Policies such as anti-discrimination and accommodations for students with disabilities are vital for equitable access. Practices, ranging from recruitment and retention efforts to resource allocation, ensure inclusivity in all aspects of student life. Inclusive pedagogy emphasizes open, diverse teaching methods that allow every student’s voice to be acknowledged.

Dr. Tookes also revealed surprising areas where IE impacts students directly. From equitable dining options that respect cultural dietary needs to events tailored for diverse backgrounds and schedules, IE extends far beyond the classroom.

The Call to Action: How Students Can Practice and Promote IE Students, too, play a pivotal role in championing IE. Dr. Tookes encouraged graduate students to practice intrapersonal reflection, expand their perspectives, and maintain cultural dialogues that celebrate diversity. Promoting IE involves supporting inclusive policies, getting involved in community programs, and actively engaging peers in meaningful conversations.

A Collective Responsibility for an Inclusive Future Inclusive excellence is a shared journey between educators, students, and administrators, fostering a culture where every individual thrives. Dr. Tookes’ compelling insights challenge us all to embrace inclusion with open minds and committed hearts to bridge gaps and build transformative academic experiences for everyone.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, and welcome. Thank you so much for joining us as we continue with our Graduate Student Success Series. I'm really excited to have you here today because every time that we come together, there are opportunities for us to learn and to be better in the journey that we are on as students, as graduate students, and the learning that we are hoping to be able to pull out of this experience. And graduate school can definitely challenge you and in many ways can be challenging in many ways for you, can be stressful. There's a lot of balance issues. There's more. And today, we're gonna be talking about something brand new that we haven't talked about before. We're talking talking about inclusive education, and this is a framework that holds all members of the higher education community accountable for ensuring that academic success is possible for every student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:05]: So this is really important, and that's why I'm so excited that you're listening today. You're watching today and you're here to be a part of this because we have Doctor. Juanita Tookes with us today. And, Doctor. Tookes is our CAPS assistant director. And we've had her on before, but this is a brand new topic. I'm really excited to be able to have her here to talk to you and to learn from her today. Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:30]: Hooks, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:01:31]: I'm just happy to be a guest. I am so excited, to be here. I'm always excited to talk to grad students. It's an experience that I will never forget. So I hope just for a little while, you'll, indulge me by just listening to me because hopefully you can take at least one thing away from what what I say today. So today we're gonna be talking about inclusive excellence. And just like what doctor Lewis said, this is a brand new topic, that challenged me to do some thinking. I presented on several different types of things multiple times before, but inclusive excellence is brand new.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:05]: So I was really happy to delve in, and create this presentation for you. Okay. So this is how things are gonna flow. First, we're going to define inclusive excellence. I'm going to refer to that as IE. And then we're also gonna talk about its role and impact. After that, we're gonna play a little bit of I spy to see where does IE show up on campus. What does that look like? Following that, we're gonna talk about how to practice and promote IE, and then we're gonna wrap up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:02:37]: Then if there's any questions or comments, I'll be more than happy to address those. And if there are none, then I will give you my best wishes, and and final thoughts. Alright. So is it me or yeah. So this is me in grad school, and, this is about probably about four or five years ago. And as a doctoral student, I went to Oakland University. As a doctoral student, I distinctly remember experiences where I was not given the same opportunities for professional development, and success as my peers. I remember a specific experience where I stepped into my instructional theory class.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:24]: I was already burned out. This is probably about two and a half, two I I believe my second year, in the program around that time. And I was already burned out from the previous semesters. But I was excited because I was learning how to teach. When I was in my doc program, I knew that I was gonna be a full time university professor. That's the track that I was on. And so, even though I was really, really tired, I was really excited about this class because I wanted to teach. So learning how to teach, I thought, was very exciting.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:03:58]: So according to my program guidelines, this course was a prerequisite. It was a required prerequisite for teaching any course, which I would later have to do as a grad student anyway as a part of my internship. So imagine how I felt when I found out that, in my small cohort of four people where I was one of two students of color and the only black woman, I noticed that information about advancement was given to my peers who are white. But for students of color like me, it felt like an obstacle course to get that same information. This was very frustrating. It was very annoying because it seemed as though information that was easily given to others, I had to work to get. And it made me feel like, why am I not privy to the same information in the same way? Why why do I have to work harder to get, you know, that information? And there was multiple experiences of this, you know, for me throughout my grad school experience. And it embedded in me this message that I will always have to work, quote, unquote, 10 times harder to achieve the same level of recognition, respect, acknowledgement, and advancement, not just in college, but in life.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:05:24]: I know that as a black woman in my community, when we say 10 times harder, what that means is that you'll never have you're never gonna have the same start point. Like, you're always gonna be behind, and you're gonna have to hustle, and you're gonna have to grind, and you're gonna have to hurry so that you can catch up with everyone else, you know, to get, you know, the same types of resources, experiences, treatments, things like that. So, the point of this story, as far as my own personal narrative, is that inclusive excellence is more than just a concept. I think students may hear this phrase or this term about inclusive excellence, but I don't think they understand how that impacts them. IE, is intentional and purposeful work that involves consistent efforts to advance diversity, equity, and inclusion and belonging, in post secondary education. Understanding each of these aspects of inclusive excellence is key in understanding your student experience. So what I'm really excited about doing today is helping you understand how inclusive excellence impacts you as a student. As a higher education professional, I've observed that when IE is discussed, college students are not as present and representative as, they're not as present and representative in those conversations as they should be.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:06:47]: And this is why students feel as though IE doesn't is not associated with them because they're not present in the conversation enough. And so I hope that with this webinar, this informal invitation, to invite you to a conversation about inclusive excellence will help you to understand just how important it is as a factor that helps to shape and molds your overall student experience. So let's talk about some major keys when we talk about IE. So we have diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging. I know we've all heard these terms before, but I want you to think about these terms in relation to inclusive excellence. Right? So just some brief definitions here. Diversity is the, countless dimensions of human difference, right, with a broader view towards different perspectives. We also have equity, eliminating barriers that prevent equivalent access or full participation of all individuals.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:07:48]: We also have inclusion, conditions where all individuals feel accepted, safe, empowered, and affirmed. Then we have belonging, which I look at as an extension of inclusion as well. The emotional state where individuals feel a true sense of group connection as their authentic selves. And notice that in between these circles are plus signs. Right? So diversity plus equity plus inclusion plus belonging. Like, these are major keys that all factor into inclusive excellence. So I thought it was very important because I know when I first got introduced to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, I always got equity and equality. It's not that I got them mixed up.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:08:38]: I thought that that that they were the same and they're actually not. So I wanted to take a second to make sure that we understand the difference between equality and equity. So when it comes to equality, equality is this idea that everyone is given the same resources and opportunities to thrive. Everyone gets equal treatment regardless of their circumstances. Everybody gets the same. Right? Regardless of what background you have, everyone gets the same thing. When we talk about equity and how that's different than equality, equity recognizes that individuals do have different backgrounds. Right? They have different backgrounds.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:09:20]: They have different needs. And because of this difference, the way that resources are allocated, they're based off of those needs so that whatever that is as far as the person's unique needs are, they have an opportunity to receive resources that can help them be successful. So, again, remember, equality is everybody gets the same thing no matter what your needs are. With equity, it recognizes that because people have different needs and may require different kinds of things in order to be successful, those things are going to be provided based off of what your unique needs are. So some people in groups face more hardships than others, different circumstances that make things more challenging, like goal achievement even with very hard work and perseverance. So equity attempts to identify the imbalances and find find ways to restore fairness and justice. So I don't know how familiar everyone is, but there, this is a very common image to show the differences between equality and equity. And I'm a visual learner.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:26]: So a good picture always helps me as far as, having things really deeply resonate. So if we look on the left, we'll see a picture of equality. Right? So remember, equality is everybody gets the same thing no matter what your needs are. You can see that these people are at different heights. You know, they're different weights. You have people standing behind the fence. They all have the same box. They all have one box.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:10:50]: It doesn't matter that you're taller than me. It doesn't matter that you can see further than I can. It doesn't matter about any of those things. We all get the same box that's at the same height, and that's that. Now notice that the smaller person can't see over the fence at all. So even though I have the same box as you and you have the same box as the next person, I can't see anything. The person who's the tallest can see everything. The person in the middle can see some things.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:16]: So when we talk about success, how successful can we actually be if if we're just treated like we all have the same kinds of needs? That's the beauty in differences. There is a beauty in difference. You know? It's nothing to be ashamed about if you need resources or aid or help because the goal is for you to be successful. So if you look at the image on the right, we have boxes, but we can see that everybody may not need a box. Depending on what their unique needs are, they may not need a box. They might need more boxes. They may need less boxes. But at the end of at the end of this, we can see that they all can see over the fence.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:11:54]: They're all at, you know, the same level in order to see, even though in order to see over the fence, they might need different or more resources. So let's talk about the role and impact of inclusive excellence. So every garment because I, you know, I love clothes. So that's where this example is coming from. But every garment has a seam, right? As you can see in the pair of blue jeans right there, a seam is very, very important to a garment because it joins and holds different parts of that garment together. Not only does the seam join and hold, but it also contributes to the overall fit and the design of the garment. Without a seam, everything falls apart. You can't wear not one piece of clothing without a seam.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:12:39]: So just like a well constructed garment, I want you to think of IE as the seam that joins and holds together every part of a collegiate institution. I want you to think of your educational environment as the design and your student experience as the fit. And now I want you to think and this is not just because I went on, a shopping spree just the other day and everything was well in the world and everything fit right. But I really want you to think about how you feel when you try something on and it fits just the way that you want it. It looks great. It feels great. A great fit as far as a garment. It increases your confidence and increases your satisfaction with yourself and the garment that you're purchasing.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:13:24]: It, increases your comfort and it gives you a sense of presence wherever you go, because you know, when you step outside in this outfit, you are going to be seen. Okay. And so what I want you to think of as far as, like, your student experience is I want you to look at your student experience as a good fit. That's what we want here at U of M Flint. We want students to come to our environment, come to this collegiate design, you know, of an educational space, and we want you to feel confident. We want you to feel satisfied and comfortable being here, and we want you to feel visible. We want you to feel seen. We want you walking around just like this lady who is very happy with her shirt and her pants.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:14:09]: Like, being a U of M Flint student, we want you to walk around knowing that this is a very, very good fit for you. Alright. So let's play just a little bit of I spy with my little eye. Okay? Where does IE show up on campus? Now the reason why I think this is very, very important is because when it comes down to inclusive excellence, again, I think this is a term that students might be familiar with, but I'm even more sure that students probably are not familiar with it. And if they are familiar with the term, I don't think students are as familiar as to how IE shows up in their everyday student lives because it's all around us. Inclusive excellence is like air. Like, even though you may not be able to see it, it is everywhere and it can impact just how you experience an environment. So let's start with the three P's.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:15:05]: Okay. The three P's are places where people know inclusive excellence can show up or may not show up. But here at U of M Flint, it definitely does show up. So policies, inclusive, inclusive policies ensure that all students have equitable access to resources, student support services and opportunities while addressing barriers related to race, ethnicity, gender, disability, SES, and other factors. Some examples of different policies, that kind of, are inclusive of everyone and what their needs might be. Our policies, as far as anti discrimination policies and also policies centered on accommodations for students with disabilities. These are perfect. Now again, remember what I'm trying to do is make something so big and foreign, something very close and relatable to you.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:02]: Accommodations is something that I have worked with before, as a higher education professional. And there's policies around accommodations because we wanna make sure that students have what they need to be successful. You know? And so that's why I'm really happy, and and so happy to, have worked so closely with the DAS office, because the disability and accessibility support services office to make sure that if students need help being successful in their classes, they have a place to go to get them what they need to be successful. Let's talk about practices. Now, when I mentioned policies, I want you to think of words. Words because that's really what policies are. They're words and manuals and things like that. Practices are those words in action.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:16:50]: Right? So practices are the activities, events, and the initiatives that help shape student life, academic culture, and community. So examples, because I love a good example. Okay. So like recruitment and retention efforts. I really hope that this is resonating with you as far as how inclusive excellence impacts and involves you. I want you to remember how you found out about U of M Flint through recruitment, or efforts to make sure that you stay here and that you're happy here. Student orientation. You don't think IE is all up and through there because it definitely is.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:17:32]: Also sustainability efforts. You know, how does the campus, work hard to make sure that, you know, things that are relative to the earth are preserved and that we know about this information, as well as resource allocation, like scholarships, for example. All of this has I e interwoven into the fabric of these different practices and policies. Now let's talk about pedagogy, which is the third P. So inclusive pedagogy focuses on creative teaching strategies and learning environments that meets the needs of all students. Okay? So we're talking about techniques of teaching and learning. And so regardless of your background or ability, depending on how a professor, because this is kind of what we're talking about now, is how does a professor, teach? What is their what is their methods of teaching? This is why I was very excited about the course that I took, because I learned about how to create my syllabus, how to create my classroom activities. How do I create a space that includes everybody's, point of view, background? How can I make students feel seen in my classroom? And when I was a grad student teaching as an intern and when I later became a professor and started teaching, this was the most exciting part of teaching for me, was how to set up my class so that when students would walk in, whether they were in person or virtual, they would feel like they belong.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:02]: They can see a part of themselves in my class, either in my class assignments or in my syllabus or the content we were reading as far as, like, books, articles. I wanted everyone to feel seen, visible, understood, heard. I wanted everyone to use their voice. So it was very exciting to become creative, as an educator in that way. Because, again, the way that a teacher teaches, it shapes your experience. Now let's let's step outside of college for just a second, and talk about, pedagogy as far as what happens when these things are when a student doesn't feel included. So when I was like in K through 12, which was many moons ago. Okay.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:19:44]: So now we're we're we're talking about back before, back I think I went to high school, like in 1999. Look. It was just a long time ago. Okay. So I remember, the textbooks that we had when I was in k through 12 were really old. They were old. They were outdated. It did not reflect, me as a black student, as an African American student.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:20:08]: Everything that we learned was based off of people who were white. So history, for example, I had no idea what kind of contributions, black people made, you know, to different things like inventions and things that we use every day. I, it took, it took a minute for me to discover these things. And a lot of times it was outside of the classroom because what was being used inside of the classroom was not representative of me and it was not accurate as far as my culture. And so I went without knowing this information, only looking at the world in one particular way when there were so many other things to look at that could affirm me, you know, and my identity. So this is what happens when when pedagogy is not inclusive. You have people looking at things in a very narrow and accurate way that might make them feel inferior or bad about themselves because when they look around, they don't see themselves. So that's why it's very, very important to to be mindful about pedagogy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:11]: And I'm gonna explain why that relates to you in a minute. I know I was talking about teaching and professors and things like that, but this still relates to you, grad student. It still relates to you, and I'm gonna tie it all together just to let you know just how in just a second. Okay. Student conduct hearings. Now I know that as far as this part of the presentation, we're gonna talk a little bit about student conduct and title nine. And you might think that this part of the presentation doesn't apply to you, but I beg to differ. And I encourage you just to keep your ears open, because as we, you know, go through this, you'll learn that IE is so much bigger than just how you're treated in a classroom.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:21:53]: It's so much bigger than that. I know we talked about pedagogy just a few minutes ago. But it's so much bigger than just a classroom. Okay? It's about your interactions with this entire campus. And I'm gonna show you. Like, I'm gonna show you just how big IE is, you know, outside of the classroom. So when we talk about student conduct hearings, typically these issues are handled, in the office of the Dean of Students. And these adjudication procedures are based off of systemic judicial processes to determine who should be held responsible for something.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:22:28]: Now, why is this important for you to know? Right? I, you know, I really do feel for students who have to go through student conduct hearings, whether you are the person who did something or you are the person that something has been done to. I always feel for students who are in these types of situations. This is why it's very, very important that you listen as far as how does IE show up in these types of situations, whether you find yourselves in them or know someone who has gone through this. Historically, legal proceedings have often been biased against BIPOC individuals. Right? So black indigenous people of color, it hasn't weighed out in our favor historically. Hearing procedures are generally based on law enforcement practices that are seen out in society with some, you know, with some adjustments. When you've had experiences of inhumane and unfair treatment by the law involving racism and discrimination and violence and presumptions of guilt. You're facing juries and certain groups of people that have this deciding power, but no one in these groups share your identity.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:23:44]: It's understandable then that as a student, if you find yourself in a situation like this, you might fear an unfair hearing process. So how does this break down? Right? I know in my culture, you know, as a black woman, part of the black community, a lot of people in my culture don't trust the law, don't trust the police. When we think about the social injustices that have occurred in our world, so many of people with skin color like mine have died at the hands of the police unjustly. And there was no punishment for that for the people who did it. So what kind of message does that communicate then to me about the law? It makes me feel like the law is not here to help me. The law is here to help somebody, but not people like me. I remember getting pulled over by the police last year. I was driving down the street, and I got pulled over for speeding.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:24:44]: I was going a little bit over, and I got pulled over for speeding. And I remember it was a white male cop who had pulled me over. And I just remember feeling afraid. I had never had this experience in my life. I consider myself a good driver, so I've never had I've never been pulled over. But I remember feeling afraid. And the reason why I felt afraid is because everything that I have seen on the news and on social media about Breonna Taylor and Sandra Bland and Eric Garner, like, I felt afraid. And that was a very eye opening experience for me.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:25:21]: And this is how many people of color feel, individuals who are of of the BIPOC community. When you see things like this, it embeds this message that the law is not here to help you. The law is going to hurt you. In some cases, kill you. So if I am a student in a situation where I'm in a student conduct hearing and student conduct hearings mirror what I'm looking at as far as legal proceedings in society, then I'm gonna go in there thinking that this isn't gonna this isn't gonna go well for me. If something has happened to me at the hands of someone else who is white, that person might not get punished at all. You know? Or if I am a woman and, you know, a man has done something to me, maybe just because I'm a woman, this is not gonna this is not gonna work well for me. Like, I'm not this isn't gonna be in my favor.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:26:14]: Or even vice versa, on the other side. Even if you are someone who has done something, you know, for whatever reason, you might I it just really breathes my heart to think that people have already thought that they lost when they walk into these types of situations simply because of the color of their skin. They lost. Like, they're not gonna evaluate me fairly. Like, I've already lost. And so IE ensures that everyone involved, no matter what side you're on, you're gonna receive fair and equitable treatment. That doesn't mean that you're gonna get an automatic outcome that you like, but it does mean that the process involved as far as assessing the situation, hearing, you know, all of the information and looking at all of the evidence, all of that is gonna be done fairly, fairly and equitably. Let's talk a little bit about Title IX because I know that students have heard about title nine.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:27:13]: You know, we have a title nine office. But, again, I don't wanna assume that just because you've heard of title nine that you know what that is. And, again, the goal is to show you just how many places that IE shows up on campus. So title nine, like, I could have this a whole webinar on title nine alone, but I'll give you kind of the short version of title nine. Title nine is a federal federal civil rights law that was passed in 1972. And this law protects students from discrimination based on sex and educational programs and activities and settings that receive federal funding. Okay? And so when it comes down to Title IX, it's one of those things to whereas inclusive excellence ensures that not only are women given equal opportunities in education and athletics compared to men, but also that all genders, including non binary individuals, are considered and provided equitable access going beyond just the binary of male and female, thus creating a more inclusive environment for all students to feel safe and protected and respected and seen. Right? So, again, I want you to think of all of these terms that I've mentioned so far as far as, like, student conduct hearing, title nine, the pre p's, policies, procedures, policies, practices, pedagogy.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:28:39]: I want you to look at this with a new lens because now I want you to look at these things that you may have heard about, and now you're learning more about through the lens of inclusive excellence. Right? Stay with me. We're going somewhere. We're going somewhere. Now let's talk about some more places that that IE shows up. Campus dining. Now, again, I want you to really understand just how IE is everywhere, especially here at U of M Flint. We wanna make sure that students know that we see you, that we wanna learn more about you, and that we you feel like you are represented here on this campus.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:29:16]: So campus dining, how does IE show up here? By providing a diverse range of eating experiences and options for our students that cater to, different dietary needs, cultural backgrounds, creating a welcoming and respectful environment for all students and actively engaging students to understand and address their concerns in relation to their diet and nutrition, and making sure that everybody feels included as far as being able to have access to meals that align with your beliefs and your preferences as far as food. Now I know that you may not have thought that inclusive excellence was involved in that, but it is. And we actually have so many different campus events, which is another place where IE shows up, where we want students to know that, hey. We realize that this means a lot to you. We wanna make sure that you feel like this is a second home away from home, especially with our international student populations where you can be hundreds of miles, thousands of miles, hundreds of thousands of miles away from your family. We want a little piece of your home to be here. And that's why campus events are very important. So designing and implementing events that are welcoming, except accessible.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:30:30]: So even when we have different events, and we try to see depending on if the event, if we can hold it, if if if it can be recorded and viewed later, if it can be accessible online. I've been a part of events where people would show up live, but there will also be an online option for our online community. Students who may not be on campus, or who may live far away from campus, they're still able to enjoy the event because now we've provided it on two different platforms. It can't always be done that way, but that's why when it comes down to programming, we try to create programming with accessibility in mind, you know, because that's all a part of IE. So making sure that our events are relevant to students, staff, and faculty regardless of background, identity, ability, ensuring that everyone feels included and valued, you know, in the campus community. I remember I was working at another institution and, I remember that, I worked for a medical school and medical school goes all year round. It's pretty intense. And I remember that students who, engage in Ramadan were very concerned because given the toughness of the curriculum, which we're going to be talking about in just a second too.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:31:48]: But talking about the curriculum, the students were really concerned about if anything could be done that could be accommodating to their schedule as far as Ramadan. And I know that this was not an immediate change, but before I left that institution, so much had been done to take into consideration students who do engage in Ramadan to make sure that they still had equal access to take exams, to attend study sessions. And they were so so happy and grateful about that. But I was happy and grateful that they used their voice, to voice their concerns to higher ed administration so that we can advocate and help support students to say, hey. We should not we should not be doing practices and things to make these students feel like they have to sacrifice something that is so spiritually important for them. Like, how can we accommodate that? And it took a little it took a little time, but it got done. And that's just one example of how campus programming, policies, pedagogy, events, dining. Some of these things can be a work in progress and can can take a little time.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:32:55]: But once it gets done, it's something that is it it's embraced by all, and we all feel really, really great about it. And this is an example for, the lighting up the night event, that was held in November. This is something that we were really excited about. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend, but this was another example of how just bringing a little bit of home here, can help students feel like they really, really belong. And that what's important to them is also important to us. Okay. So now that we've talked about IE and where it shows up, let's talk about as a grad student, how can you practice inclusive excellence? Oh, yes. There is a practice portion.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:33:38]: It's not enough to just know. Right? Once you know, then you gotta do. So how would a grad student practice, inclusive excellence? Now I know that everyone is coming from different educational backgrounds and fields of study and things like that, but you might find yourself in a position where you are either teaching like I was, you know, as a grad student for my internship, or you might have a student facing type of position or learning experience that you might have to do. And even if you're not teaching, these these practices can still apply to you in some way, shape, or form. So let's talk a little bit about intrapersonal awareness. Now there's a difference between intrapersonal and interpersonal. Intrapersonal is inside of you. Interpersonal is your interactions with someone else.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:34:29]: But I'm glad we're starting with this because it all starts with you. It starts with you first and then it goes and flows out. Right? So interpersonal awareness is understanding the nature of your worldview. Right? And how that was created. Reflecting on your ideas, experiences, values, biases, and assumptions, and being open to learning about other cultures and the experiences and narratives of other people. We do not often think about how our perspective on the world came to be. It did not just appear. Your experiences have come to light based off of how they were constructed.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:35:09]: Like, there is a phenomenon called constructivism in mental health where it basically says that the way that you look at the world, it was developed and built and constructed over time based off of your experiences and interactions, you know, in the world. And we all have different views because we all have different experiences. But I don't think we think about the experiences that we've had and how that factors into how we look at other people and how we look at the world and everything that goes on in it. We do have to examine ourselves for biases because we all have them. Okay? So don't feel bad. Don't feel ashamed. We all have biases. We just wanna make sure that we're keeping those things in check because we wanna make sure that biases are not playing out in a discriminatory way or you're making assumptions about people, based off of what you think you might know or assumptions that you have made or misinformation that you might have heard.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:01]: You wanna make sure that you are examining yourself first and understanding where you come from, what you've been through, how that affects your view, and also being aware that your view is not the only view. So being open to expanding that view to include information from other sources, AKA other people. Interpersonal awareness. Right? Accepting invitations to participate in cultural dialogues where you can listen, stare, ask, express, and learn from the narratives of other people. So one thing that I want you to be aware of with interpersonal awareness is as you learn about others, you are also teaching simultaneously simultaneously. So you are learning from other people about their lived experiences, but other people are also learning from you because you are the expert in you and what you've been through. You are the teacher. There's no one else that can teach you about what you've been through.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:36:58]: You are the teacher, but you also have to be willing to be a student and listen. And a lot of times we think that just because we know about our experience, that makes us an expert in the experience of someone else. And that is not true. That is absolutely not true. You are your only teacher who can only teach in one subject. That is you. You cannot teach the subject of another another person. Curriculum transformation.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:37:23]: Right? This is how, I was talking a little bit about before about my excitement about setting the tone and the environment for my classroom. Curriculum transformation involves what kind of changes are you going to make to, to how things are being taught, you know, in education and being done, you know, in education? How are we gonna transform that to make that a lot more, you know, inclusive? As a higher education professional, I have been a part of many task forces and many different groups. I've sat in many different meetings based off of this right here. How are we gonna change the curriculum to make it more accessible, make it more inclusive, make it more open, make it more representative that involves professors, you know, updating their syllabi, changing language. That's been outdated. What kind of materials, you know, are you using? Is it accurate? You know, And sometimes curriculum transformation can take time. But the benefit is really, really big. So before I got into my doc program, when I applied the first time, I was rejected.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:38:31]: Felt very, very bad. Like, felt very, very bad about that. What I learned after I got in, because that didn't that didn't stop me. Right? I applied again, got in. But once I got in again, I learned that the reason why I didn't get in the year before was because they were doing a curriculum transformation at the institution where I got my doctorate from. So what they were actually doing was cutting down the program to make it shorter, to make it more, to make it, more possible for students to actually complete the program. So the program was relatively long. It was about maybe six or seven years long, something like that.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:10]: And they just tried to figure out what classes do we need, what classes can we maybe, you know, can we condense anything? Is this really necessary? Because we wanna make sure that students stay with us, stay in the program. Remember, we're talking about retention. We wanna make sure sure that students not only start, but they finish. Maybe the the program is too long. Maybe that's why students aren't finishing. So I'm telling myself that, hey, you didn't get in because you're not smart enough to be a doctor. When the reality was that behind the curtain, there was a curriculum transformation going on for the benefit of me, and I did finish. And I'm glad they cut it down.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:39:51]: I think they only cut it down by a couple of years, but trust me, I'm glad they did because if I would have been in there any longer, I think I don't know. But the whole point is I'm glad that they that they cut it down. Inclusive pedagogy is something that we just talked about a little bit earlier, so I won't spend too much time on that. But if you do find yourself in a position to teach, and that doesn't always mean like, a teaching assistant or like a professor, there's a lot of roles that you can be a teacher. Right? And whatever that pedagogy might be, it may not be a syllabus that you have, but it may be some type of outline for a program, you know, that you're designing. No matter what it is, that you are using as a tool to guide how you teach and how students learn, whether it be a coach, whether it be a mentor, whether it be a professor, no matter what the role is, there's always an element of teaching, especially when you're in higher education. You just want to make sure whatever that tool or those tools are, they're inclusive. And then as far as the inclusive learning environment, right, you want to make sure that what you teach and how you teach factor into where you teach.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:40:56]: So that's what I was talking about as far as the excitement of creating, a very inclusive space, learning space for students, because creating an inclusive learning space involves two important things, care and respect. Right? So this is how healthy and positive relationships the students are built and the strength and the impact of those relationships. What it does is it empowers students, to continue to learn and see this thing through, you know, be academically successful. How do we show care and respect? The quick example is remembering names, for example, and not just remembering them, but pronouncing names correctly and not getting offended when a student corrects you about their name. Right? I take that very important. You know? If I do not know how to pronounce a student's name, I will ask them, would you mind pronouncing your name so that I know that I am pronouncing it correctly? And please bear with me. If I happen to mispronounce it, correct me every time. Because a name is a part of your identity.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:41:57]: And a lot of times what students will do is they will change themselves to accommodate the person who they feel has more power over them because there is a power differential when you're talking about a professor and a student. But as faculty, it's very important for for faculty to be aware that something as important as a name and not getting offended when somebody corrects you about a name is something that can really strengthen a relationship with a student. And that can change the whole way they look at your class and the way that you teach that class. Alright. So how can you promote? Because we talked about practicing IE, but how can you promote it, on this campus and in your community? Reflecting, educating, supporting, and getting involved. Right? So reflect on your own beliefs. Remember what we talked about about that interpersonal practice? That involves reflection and introspection. Reflect on your own beliefs and opinions to discover any biases that you can challenge.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:42:59]: It's not enough just to know that, oh, I have a bias. How are you gonna challenge that? And a lot of times what you can do is get involved in professional development opportunities, you know, like webinars like this, you know, for example. You know, sitting in conversations where it might be a subject matter that you're not familiar with, and you can expose yourself to new information to challenge the biases or misinformation or assumptions that you may have found within yourself through reflection. Educate yourself. And this is I kinda jumped ahead a little bit, but this is kinda how you address those biases through education, whether it be through a webinar, whether it be through a class, whether it be being a part of an organization, surrounding a topic or a concern that you know very little about, through books, through media, and making sure you understand inequality and inequity. Because, again, those aren't things that are barriers to inclusive excellence. Support organizations that promote diversity and inclusion. It's so important to have support.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:05]: It's very, very important to have support because when you show support, it reaffirms that the cause that you're supporting is needed and it's important. And then get involved with community programs. When we talk about the community aspect, getting involved with community programs that help others in need. Because again, remember, reflection, that's about intra. That's intrapersonal practice. But when we're talking about supporting organizations and getting involved in your community, that's when we're talking about interpersonal practices. This is so much bigger than, like I said, bigger than the classroom, bigger than your interactions with professors. This is about what you as a grad student can do on your campus, in your community to show inclusive excellence because we are all ambassadors of inclusive excellence.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:44:51]: It's not just professors. It's not just higher ed administration, the dean, directors. It's all of us. We all have a responsibility to show and display inclusive excellence on campus, including graduate students. And that brings me to the end of my presentation. So if you have any questions, I'd be happy to read them and answer them to the best of my ability, you know, in the chat. But this was as you can probably tell, I was very excited to talk about inclusive excellence. And I just wanna thank you once again for, just listening to me for a little bit.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:45:26]: And hopefully, you can take something away that makes you feel informed and also inspired to display inclusive excellence in the environments that you show up in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:45:36]: Well, doctor Tux, thank you. Thank you so much for being here today, for sharing everything that you did share, and being such an advocate for our students in this way, and to challenge our students to be able to share their voice and be able to help our institution grow because of that sharing. And I wish you the best. And thank you to all of you for being here too. And we will be having more of these, one every month, so please watch your email. We'll be sharing out the topics every month. We have some great speakers coming from the CAPS office throughout the entire term. So look forward to that, and have a wonderful rest of your day.

Dr. Juanita Tookes [00:46:14]: Yes. Have a wonderful day, everyone. Thanks for coming.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:46:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate education is a transformative experience, one that goes far beyond mere academics. In the latest episode of Victors on Grad School, Dr. Zachariah Mathew, Senior International Officer and Director of the Center for Global Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, sat down with Dr. Christopher Lewis to unravel his unique educational and professional journey. From his roots in India to accomplishing multiple advanced degrees in the United States, Dr. Mathew's story exemplified the essence of perseverance, mentorship, and making meaningful connections. This blog distills his advice and experiences into actionable insights that prospective graduate students can take to heart.

Discovering Graduate Education as a Journey

Dr. Mathew’s journey exemplifies how graduate education is not a one-size-fits-all experience. Reflecting on his initial career as a physical education teacher in India, he admitted going in “thinking I knew it all.” However, through mentors like his school principal, he discovered the value of continuous learning and how education is a voyage enriched by companions. Understanding that he "did not know enough to teach" and that more formal education would help him better serve his students, Dr. Mathew pursued graduate studies—eventually crossing continents to the United States.

The Importance of Finding the Right Fit

Choosing the right graduate program isn’t just about prestige. Dr. Mathew discussed how he meticulously researched and prioritized faculty expertise, affordability, and alignment with his passions during his transition from India to South Dakota State University. This phase taught him that graduate school decisions depend on the information available at the time—a reminder that the “right” choice always involves reflection on personal goals and circumstances.

Leveraging Mentorship for Growth

A resounding theme of Dr. Mathew’s interview was the transformative power of mentorship. From advisers to administrators, mentors played a pivotal role in helping him synthesize his skills and switch career paths. For aspiring graduate students, seeking guidance from mentors—faculty members or even campus staff—can be immensely impactful.

Final Thoughts: Graduate School as a Laboratory of Growth

Dr. Mathew emphasized that “graduate education is what you make of it.” Perspective-building, experiential learning, and finding ways to apply classroom knowledge to the real world define success. Graduate school should be seen not only as a means to a degree but as a platform to become uniquely capable of solving problems and thriving in a globalized world.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You've made a decision that you're starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you've already applied and you've gotten accepted. Maybe you are in graduate school and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: No matter where you are, there is a journey that you go through when you go to graduate school, and there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share some of those experiences with you to help you on that journey that you're on. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor. Zacharia Matthew is with us today. And today we're going to be talking about his own journey from India to The United States. Doctor. Matthew is the senior international officer and director of the Center for Global Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, and I'm really excited to have him here with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:19]: Doctor. Matthew, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:01:21]: Doctor. Liz, it's truly an honor. I really love the way you started. It indeed is a journey. I know a journey where you're not alone and you find your companion who you can part the journey along.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: Well, I really appreciate you being here. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work in India and you studied to be a educator and a teacher and ended up getting that degree. But at some point, at some point, either during that time and your undergraduate work and that time in the early years, when you were a physical education teacher, you made a decision. You made a big decision. You made a decision to go on with your education, to go to graduate school. And not only did you decide to go to graduate school, but you decided to come to The United States to go to graduate school. So I want to go back to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: Bring me back to that point where you made that decision and what made you decide that you wanted to go further and go on and get that graduate degree?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:02:19]: I was 19. I was not even 20 when I had my first job as a physical education teacher at an international school. So I went in with this mindset at the age of 20 thinking I knew it all and how far away or far out I was in my belief that so I started off as a physical education teacher at an international school, called Malayadity International School. It's in Bangalore, India. And again, as you mentioned in the beginning, education is a journey. Every day you learn, and you need to find companions. You need to find the right people who can be part of that journey. First of all, my family was always supportive.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:02:58]: But at my institution, the principal of that school, Mrs. Anne Wario, she also started off as a physical education teacher in England. So she had a very different take for this profession of physical education. In India at that time, I'm talking about the early nineties, physical education was nothing but training. But Mrs. Warrior really brought me in to think about this as an integral part of education. Over the next six, seven years, I had a lot of opportunity to learn more through different short term courses, programs from Oxford Brookes. And I realized that there was a lot that I did not know.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:03:38]: And also I realized that I was able to be along with teachers who had got their degrees from institution, like from Ivy Leagues and be part of a conversation. So first of all, that what that led me to believe is that I was also capable of having conversations, informed conversations with professionals who had terminal degrees from institutions abroad. So that made me also think so one was I realized that I did not know enough to be able to teach. And second, I realized interacting with, as we said, you know, meeting the people all throughout the journey, I realized that I had so much to learn. And at that time, physical education was not a field of study in India. It was not a major field at all. So when I decided to pursue my higher education, I looked within the country. I did my PG diploma from India as well.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:04:29]: I realized that that was not enough for me to, one, have a career. Number two, provide proper education for the students whom I serve. That's when I really started looking to The US, UK, and Australia. And finally, I chose to do my master's in, exercise physiology in The United States. And then later, I realized that that was not where my heart and pulse was. I was more interested in the management, and that is where my pulse was. And later completed my master's in, sports management from Indiana State University. So this journey from being a teacher to finally coming to The United States took about seven years.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:05:05]: That is the first leg of my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: Talk to me about the search because every person goes through that process. And you said you could have gone to Ivy League. You could have looked at a lot of different universities to try to figure out where you wanted to go to get that degree in physiology and in sports management for your master's degree that you were going to be getting here in The United States. You ended up deciding to attend Indiana State University, but every student goes through that search process. You talked about you were looking at The UK and Australia and The US, and you're trying to figure out the right fit for you. But talk to me about what you had to do to be able to identify the right program, but also the right university for you to find that right fit.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:05:50]: That too was a journey that almost took me two years to decide where I really want to go. So one thing that you need to recognize is that you do not know what you do not know. You make decisions based on the information that you have at that point of time. Later, you may decide later, when you have more information, you may decide that that is not. So you may you need to make decisions that is right for you at that time. So when I decided to pursue my master's in excess physiology at South Dakota State University, I was looking for an quality and affordable graduate education that aligned with my interest area as well. So at that point, especially due from 1996 to February, I was very much into climbing and hiking up on the Himalayas and high altitude. I was very much interested in high altitude training.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:06:36]: So within while I was searching for the right graduate program, I found adviser or a faculty at South Dakota State University whose research was on high altitude training. So that was a key aspect at that time for me to determine which university to go to. So while I had a lot of push factors from India, which is like they do not India did not have this kind of a training at that point. The pull factors I mean, I could have gone to as you said, I could have gone to many, many places, but there were key aspects. One was affordability. Number two, quality of program. Number three, was there a person who could guide me who could guide me in my area of interest. So I started that program but it was once I was in the program and I learned more about what it really is because, again, I came from a place where excess physiology and physical education was it was not a science.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:07:33]: It was yet evolving. I when I realized that I had no passion dealing with blood and punched muscles, I realized my seven years of experience or eight years of experience as a physical education teacher, a manager, and an administrator was my real area. So then I really looked for somebody or an institution again that was affordable at quality education, but then this time, you can't make too many mistakes. So this time, what I did was I did a deeper research and found a faculty who was also an author, reached out to him, had a almost an hour and a half hours of conversation, and then decided that my seven years of experience is something that I wanted to capitalize on and decided to do my master's in sports management at Indiana State University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: Now along the way, you also made a decision that after you got that master's degree and you started working for Indiana State University, You decided to continue that education, and you continued that as a in a doctorate of philosophy program, a PhD program in higher education administration, and you stayed at Indiana State University. So talk to me about that because you you went on that journey of being a teacher in the classroom with with young kids, getting that exercise physiology degree, a recreation sports management degree. You're educating yourself seemingly on one path, and then you pivot, and you start working in higher education, and you decide to stay in higher education and get that additional degree. What made you decide to not only pivot in career, but also pivot in regard to what you were doing in your education to get that doctorate degree?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:09:24]: Yeah. So when I started my program at Indiana State University, I also realized that I had once pivoted from a program to another. So when you make decisions and when you kind of change those, it kind of can rattle you. So here too, I was a little rattled because I had lost some time. So I had to make sure that this decision was I had to make the best out of this decision. So what I did was I made, as you mentioned in the beginning, this is a journey. I made a lot of friends who were professionals in the field of higher education. These were the faculty and the staff of Indiana State University, and I made these connections through my work as a graduate assistant.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:10:05]: I was a graduate assistant for employee assistance program, the the department that was very much focused on providing wellness for, the faculty and staff. I made a lot of friends among professionals, and every conversation was a learning opportunity for me. And that's when I also realized that probably I could do better and I would be a lot more satisfied as a professional in the field of higher education working with young adults. So I started thinking of switching from K through 12 to higher education. And a lot of work that I did at during my graduate assistantship period at Indiana State University was pretty much what a full time employee would do. So that confidence and that experience and the contacts and connections that I made at throughout my journey at Indiana State really helped me switch over to the higher ed field. So upon graduation, I moved to New York. I was working for State University of New York in the field of sports, management.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:11:04]: And then again, you need to realize that you make decisions based on what the information you have. So my two years of experience pursuing my sports management degree, my experience as an international student and perspective building and the role culture play really introduced me to this field of international student affairs. It took me a little bit of a time to make sure that this was something that I really wanted to pursue. So after working for about seven years in the field of sports management, I decided to pursue my PhD in student affairs, especially focusing on international student affairs or international student affairs in higher education. Again, this transition, some I mean, I've many times I've been asked, why did you change your career? And I never see this one as changing my career because I've always been into student development. Again, I switched my means. One was sports. Now I'm really just pivoting that and getting into international student experience and making sure that I can provide an opportunity for those cultural understanding and student development.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:08]: Now with every move into a new educational environment, there are transitions that you go through. You went through some big transitions going from a system in India and getting degrees in India to South Dakota to Indiana to different types of degrees, different types of types of expectations, different faculty, etcetera. As students go through those transitions, they have to learn what it takes to find success. Talk to me about what you had to do in those transitions to be able to not only transition into the programs, but also transition through the programs, finding success along that journey.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:12:49]: So I think when we make decisions, we need to be sure why we are making those decisions. There is no right or wrong reasons. You make decisions based on the information that you have. Sometimes it might be career opportunities. Sometimes it might be that you just realize a new passion for a field of study. I think that most important aspect is making those connections of why you make a certain decision and see how much of your current skills can be transport or transportable is transportable. So you really take advantage of every knowledge that you have and then try and fit that into the new field of study. So having been in the sports field to or athletics, moving into international student affairs, again, for me, the connection was student development.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:13:33]: Now definitely, it is challenging, and that's where you find the companion companions for your journey. You need to find resources. And when you are challenged, you need to be able to you should and you should reach out to people who are in the field of this profession who can serve as mentors. In my I think all through this, if I, if if you ask what is that one aspect that helped me through all this journey, I had mentors. Not one. Multiple mentors in the field of higher education from day one. At Indiana State University, it was Doctor. Tom Sawyer, who was my advisor.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:14:12]: He was able he helped me make connections. When I say connections within the field of study, how I can really capitalize what I already know to the field that I'm getting into. And then as I said, as through my work as a graduate assistant, I made a lot of friends and family who literally took me under their wings recognizing that I had some potential but needed mentorship. So this included the Dean of Library, at that time, Betsy Hine, her family. Her husband was the Dean of was a Dean at Eastern Illinois. So they all kind of mentored me and held my hand as I was traveling through this field of higher education. And then again, I remember my, immigration advisor at Indiana State. He was the first one to really make those connections between what I was doing there to international student affairs and the role that office really plays.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:15:08]: And I was able to see that relationship because I had some experience, but it was not the same. I was able to relate it through this mentorship. And that was I mean, again, you know, today I work at an international office. Very often, students look our look at our office as that transactional space. I think it is very important as a graduate student that any office on this campus that you are should be viewed as a place where you can learn from. So that mentorship that I got at my previous institution really helped me through and make those connections. So I never felt that I changed my career. It was making connections and making progression.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:15:49]: And that is what it took me about five, six years to further make bond, build the strength of those connections and make a decision that I wanted to pursue my PhD in a certain field and then also pursue a lasting career in that field of study. So if you in one sentence, I would say is mentorship. Find mentors who are faculty, who are administrators, who we can talk to, whom we can trust, and that is going to be very, very, very powerful throughout your grad school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: Now you have found success. You got your degrees. You moved into your own professional career in international education. And as you look back at the education that you went through, many people would say, I see the connection in your doctorate to what you're doing today. But as you think back to all of the pieces, the building blocks, it could be the career steps, it could be the education. As you look back at your education and those building blocks, how did what you learn in all of those different degrees prepare you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:16:59]: That's a pretty profound question. A few things. One, believe in yourself and believe in what you do. So for me, from day one, yes, I was a physical education teacher, then I became an administrator, and now in international affairs. But my question even today, what I ask what I ask is, what is the connection? For me from day one, what I had been was an educator. The only difference was whom I worked with, either I worked in k through 12 or I was at college in the physical education or in the sports management or here. So all through what I've been doing is educate. And one of the reasons why I might have moved from again, I say this might because I'm basing my decisions on what I know now from a teacher to an administrator is I started asking this question, what's the difference between teaching and learning? That was a key question that I asked.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:17:51]: And I've come to believe that learning takes a lot more than what happens in the classroom. It takes a lot of support system. Not everybody learn in the same way. We have students coming from different backgrounds. They need different support systems. So what I really did was pivot from being in the classroom teaching and find an avenue or find a place where I could foster learning, provide the support system, and provide the nourishment that would foster learning. So I thought being in an administrative role, I would be in a position where I could complement and support the students and the faculty in the core learning process. So that's what I really do today is, yes, I teach.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:18:33]: As an administrator, I teach. But at the bigger picture, what I am really doing is making sure that the students have the right environment to learn. This would include even starting from techniques to learn to providing the social support system and being the mentor to these students recognizing that it is a mentorship that has got to me this to this position. So that is a key difference. I mean, the connection for me is whom I was working with and what am I doing right now. All through, if you're really looking in, what I'm doing is imparting education. So that's the connection that I have made. And I think that making that connection really helps you to progress in your educational pursuit and in your career pursuit.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:19:20]: Because though I have changed my field, if you really look at it over the last forty years, I had been doing the same thing. And I have thirty five years of experience being in that field of education doing the same thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:31]: Now you may have already answered this through some of your comments in regards to mentorship and other things that students should do. But as you look back at your graduate education and you think about students that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it's in one of the areas that you studied in or something completely different, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:19:55]: Graduate education is not undergraduate education. Graduate education is what you make out of it. Now something that you have to really recognize is every single year, there are thousands of students graduating with the same degree that you would have. The question there is, how do you really stand out in the crowd is a key question that you need to ask. So I really see there's a big difference between having an academic degree and having an education. And this graduate degree is when you are pursuing the graduate degree, you need to make sure that everything that you do is experiential. The assignments you do in the classroom should relate to what you really want to do in your career. So you can do the research while you are being a student.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:20:45]: And, again, recognize that failing is not a failure. Failing is a great opportunity for you to learn, and the graduate school is one place where you may not have to be afraid of failing because you can then write a paper from that experience, and that can provide you a learning opportunity. So some of the things that I really want the young graduates to know or students who are pursuing their graduate degree is that graduate program is a lab. A lab where you can have experiential learning opportunities, learn from not only what happens in the classroom, but learn in the classroom outside, get involved on in campus in multiple levels. I'm not talking just getting involved as a participant. Be a leader. Take all that as an opportunity to learn and get an education that is beyond an academic degree. And also make sure that you spend some time in perspective building.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:21:40]: We serve people from different cultures. So this is also a great opportunity for you to integrate those perspectives of different cultures into your learning. And this is what makes you marketable and make you employable is your ability to apply what you know in different settings. So it is very important that you really look at everything that you know and see how does this apply to various cultures or various systems and make yourself employable. Again, we at institutions of higher education focus on career readiness. It is your responsibility to look into your employability. The difference is career readiness will get you to the first job and then what? It is very important that you use every single day at your grad school to learn so that you can build your employability where you can employability is your ability to progress at your current job or move on. Every day should be a learning opportunity.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:22:36]: See what you can learn from that experience. Even at a meeting, what is it that you can learn? And that is what makes grad education different and powerful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:45]: Well, doctor Matthew, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing all of this great advice that I know that others can take and be able to internalize and be able to use for their own journey, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Zachariah Mathew [00:22:59]: Thank you, doctor Lewis. Thank you very much for having me, and it's truly an honor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:02]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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The path to success is rarely straightforward, and Dr. Julie Jacob’s journey from military service to directing the Occupational Therapy Doctorate Program at the University of Michigan Flint illustrates that vividly. During her appearance on the podcast, Victor’s in Grad School, Dr. Jacob shared her unique educational and professional trajectory, proving that twists, turns, and detours can lead to meaningful and rewarding outcomes.

Starting her career in the military with a focus on communications, Dr. Jacob completed her associate degree in information systems management while serving. Yet, her passion lay elsewhere. After leaving the military and initially pursuing a healthcare-related degree in med lab sciences, her path shifted again. A challenging math course in undergrad led her to explore other healthcare options, eventually discovering occupational therapy (OT). Through research and coursework, Dr. Jacob recognized OT as her calling, igniting a commitment to lifelong learning and service.

The Transitions: Adaptability and Resilience

Each stage of Dr. Jacob’s academic journey—earning an associate’s degree, undergraduate degree, master’s degree, and doctorate—required significant adjustments. From rote memorization in earlier programs to analytical and self-directed learning in graduate school, she had to evolve her study habits and approach. More importantly, she developed robust skills in time management and organization, crucial for balancing her studies with work and family responsibilities.

Dr. Jacob emphasized that succeeding in graduate studies takes significant sacrifice, as students often face financial, time, and personal challenges. “Organization and time management were the biggest pieces that I really had to nail down in order to be successful,” she shared. This lesson resonates universally for anyone embarking on a graduate school journey.

The Passion for Occupational Therapy

Occupational therapy is a field dedicated to enhancing individuals’ lives—helping people overcome physical, cognitive, and emotional challenges to engage in meaningful daily activities. Its blend of holistic care and creativity captured Dr. Jacob’s heart, paralleling her own multifaceted journey. “It’s strength-based and the perfect blend of art and science,” Dr. Jacob explained, illustrating why OT was the right fit for her and why it remains a fulfilling profession.

Advice for Future Graduate Students

With years of academic and professional experience, Dr. Jacob encouraged students to anticipate the sacrifices and challenges associated with graduate school. It may be demanding, but her story highlights that the rewards—personal growth, professional advancement, and meaningful impact—make it worthwhile.

By embracing resilience, adaptability, and a passion for making a difference, anyone can navigate the twists and turns of their educational journeys as Dr. Jacob did. Let her experience serve as inspiration for your own path toward success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week as we, every week, talk about the journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person walks a different path when it comes to looking at graduate school, considering graduate school, walking through graduate school to find that light at the end of the tunnel, leading you to the career and the dreams that you may have for your future. And the thing that is so important is that there are things that you can do right now as you are listening today to be able to prepare yourself for that journey and to prepare yourself to find success in that journey. And that's why every week we come back and we have an opportunity to be able to sit down and talk through this, but also you get an opportunity to learn from others that have done this before you. And that's why I love being able to bring you different guests with different experiences that can help you to understand the journey that they went on to then allow you to take some things out of that, to look and consider what you can take out of it to build some tools for your own toolbox that help you along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: This week, we got another great guest. Doctor Julie Jacob is with us today, and doctor Jacob is the director of the occupational therapy doctorate program at the University of Michigan Flint. And we were just talking prior to talking today about the journey that she went on, and it it's a circuitous path. And sometimes for for students like you, you may have a circuitous or you may have a circuitous path that will twist and turn along the way to get you to that endpoint. And we're gonna talk to Julie about that today. So I'm really excited to have her here and for you to learn from her experiences. Julie, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:02:08]: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:09]: Yeah. I am really excited to be able to have you here today to talk about the journey that you went on. And I talked about the fact that your journey was not a linear path, but more circuitous and the fact that you you had a number of twists and trends along the way. So I always start these opportunities to get a little bit more sense. And I know you got into your degrees first through the military, but then the journey began. So I want to go back because I know that you did your first educational experiences in the military as a part of the military. And thank you for your service.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:02:43]: Oh, you're welcome.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:44]: And then after you got out, you did some work. Somewhere along this pathway, you decided to get an undergraduate degree, and you went to Saginaw Valley State University. And while you were at Saginaw Valley State University, you made a decision. You made a decision whether on your own accord or not to continue your education, and you ended up finding occupational therapy. Talk to me about that journey for yourself, and what led you to occupational therapy ultimately?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:03:15]: Well, when I was in the military, I was in communications. And so my associate's degree, I took classes while I was in, and my associate's degree is in information systems management. So I took classes when I was deployed, when I was at my main duty station, as I could part time obviously, and got that accomplished. But I knew that I wanted to go into health care. I was kinda like, what do I wanna be when I grow up? And I knew I wanted a health care career. At the time, I chose to get out of the military because there was not a health care career that I could transition to and remain active duty at that time. So when I went to pursue my undergraduate degree, initially, I was a med lab sciences major, and I was taking all of the required courses for that major. And I happened to take, a more advanced math course and found it very challenging.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:03:59]: And I had never really been challenged in my undergrad. I I got very good grades, but sometimes that happens. And I did everything that I could, but I thought to myself, maybe this is not the right major for me. And so I needed to stay at Saginaw Valley just for, you know, financial reasons, stay stay in the general region where I was at. And I started looking into other programs that they offered, and I stumbled upon occupational therapy. And I had not really heard of that before. And as I did more investigating, I'm like, wow. This sounds like this career is right up my alley.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:04:24]: It's health care related. The curriculum looks really interesting, is something that I would be interested in doing. So I ended up changing my major to that. And at that time, it was for the profession, entry level was a bachelor's program. But as luck would have it, I was taking classes part time. And when I decided to transition full time, the profession of occupational therapy had undergone a shift to make it, master's level prepared entry level. So if I wanted to continue, I would need to get a master's degree. And so I was already invested at that point and decided to just continue my studies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:01]: Now you had a lot of transitions going from getting an associate's degree in the military, to getting an undergraduate degree, to getting a master's degree and then getting a doctorate degree. And in all of those transitions, you have to learn something new. Every educational transition brings you to having to learn about those different educational, those educational environments and being able to understand the expectations, etcetera. But you found success in those journeys. You were able to get your associates, get your bachelor's, get that master's, get that doctorate degree. Talk to me about those transitions, the transition into undergrad, transition from undergrad to master's, transition from master's to doctorate, and what you learned along the way in those transitions as you transitioned in. And as you transitioned in, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success as you transitioned through those programs to your ultimate goal?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:06:01]: Well, I think the way that you're assessed is different. I mean, I remember early on in my educational journey, you know, you're taking a lot of exams, and it's a lot of rote memorization of the content. So the way I was studying was different. As I transitioned into, you know, going from my bachelor's into my master's program, the work there was a shift in the in the expectation and the work. So it was more clinical reason how I was thinking about things. You know, clinical reasoning, critical thinking skills were more required rather than just, you know, studying for an exam and forgetting about it. I felt like I was building upon my knowledge. Every single class required me to kind of remember what I had learned before and apply that to the new content.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:06:40]: Organization was very, very important. Time management was really important. You know, you're you'd have big papers to write rather than just just studying for a simple exam. So allowing myself more time. I was also working. I I worked during my master's program and my doctorate program. I was working. So that takes a lot of balance, in order to manage manage my time and and devote what I needed to to my studies plus everything that else just to balance my home life.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:07:12]: So I think there's definitely a shift in the expectation. And then transitioning to my doctorate program, it was all self directed learning. You have everything kind of laid out for you. The expectations are laid out for you. There's a lot more discussion, but everything was pretty much self directed at that point. And a lot of that in the master's program too, of course. So, yeah, I think for me, like, organization and time management was were the biggest pieces that I really had to nail down in order to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: Now I know that from doing your undergrad and your grad at Saginaw Valley State University, you ended up at some point deciding that you wanted to get a doctorate degree and you went to Nova Southeastern to be able to do that program. Talk to me about the decision to go further than the masters, because you could have decided to stay with the masters, be a practitioner, work as an OT, and having a a fruitful career, staying and working in that environment, but you decided to continue on, get the doctorate, and go back and teach. So talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go further and get that doctorate degree?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:08:25]: So I was a clinician for many years, and then I actually transitioned into academia. And I went to work in the occupational therapy department at Santa Clara Valley State University, which was a great transition for me. So I was in charge of all the field work classes. I taught adjunct for some of the, undergraduate prereqs in the occupational therapy program. But there's been a lot of transition still in the occupational therapy field with a lot of programs moving towards an entry level doctorate degree. So we still have dual points of entry in our profession. So you can enter the profession at a master's level or you can choose to have an entry level doctorate, which is like what we have at University of Michigan Flint. But if you have a program that has a doctorate, entry level doctorate, all of your faculty must be doctorally prepared.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:09:08]: And teaching at Saginaw Valley, I was not. So if they that program was going to transition and there was a lot of talk that they were going to transition and a lot of talk of the profession that they were gonna mandate a transition at that time to keep my job. I had to move towards a doctor degree. So I could have gone back to clinical practice, like you said. I mean, that's easy. I love treating patients and I love clinical practice, but I really grew to love teaching in academia. And I knew that I wanted to stay in academia. So So there's no question for me.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:09:35]: I'm like, okay, then this is what I need to do in order to maintain my ability to, to teach. I need to get my doctorate degree. And so then I explored that option and decided to pursue that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:44]: So one of the things that I'm kind of interested in is that, you know, you went from being in the military to being a full time student, to being a full time student and working, and, you know, you're balancing all of these different things like many students do. And as you look back at the experience that you had in your graduate degree in both your graduate degrees and you think about what you do today, how did all of this other experience lead you to where you are today? And how do you draw from that graduate school experience in the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:10:20]: I mean, like you said, my path is a little unconventional, but I almost feel like a lot of students now, you know, there there's a lot of people out there that are completely switching career fields when their, their paths are not linear. I think that lends itself to having a lot of life experience, especially in a healthcare profession that helps you connect better with your patients. They say, you know, you can't connect the dots looking forward, but you can connect the dots looking backward. And I certainly can connect the dots to everything that I've done. I mean, even my experience in the air force in communications and having my associate's degree in information systems management, I got my doctorate degree in health science with a concentration in telehealth. And a lot of the curriculum that I studied had to do with technology and some of the things that I was doing way back in my associate's degree and in my my military service. So the dots definitely connect. So def that all served me to help me get to where I am today.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:11:13]: You know, my clinical practice being occupational therapy, I couldn't teach if I didn't have any clinical practice. Right? So, I think all of it kind of led me. And the fact that I went ahead and I got my doctorate degree, and I'm now teaching in a entry level doctorate program. And I was able to obtain a position at University of Michigan Flint, which I otherwise would not have. Had I not decided to go ahead with that, I would not have been able to have the position that I'm in today and to continue to teach and help shape future practitioners in OT.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Now, like I said, you are the program director of the occupational therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint. And as you said, you found this passion, you found this career area for yourself, and not everybody knows about what occupational therapy is all about. And a lot of times it is a found career unless they unless someone has had an experience with an occupational therapy or has had a family member with an occupational therapy, occupational therapist in the past. So talk to me about occupational therapy and why are you so passionate about it and why is it such a great career area for you and for others?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:12:18]: Occupational therapy, healthcare profession that we're focused on helping individuals of all ages. So, you know, essentially from birth to death to palliative care, and we focus on helping people participate in meaningful activities or what we call occupations. So So anything that occupies your time is essentially what an occupation is that are essential to their daily lives. So that could be anything from your self care that you're doing, activities of daily living, work, education, which is the primary occupation of students at our university, their leisure activities, social interaction. So, but the ultimate goal of occupational therapy is to help people live as independently and as fully as they possibly can. Despite any challenges, whether that be physical or cognitive, emotional, or any social challenges that they may face. And OTs really address the whole person. It's a very holistic approach to health care.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:13:07]: So we address physical, emotional, psychological factors rather than just focusing on, like, there an illness or an injury or a disability. So we're it's strength based. And I think it it's kind of the perfect blend of art and science because occupational therapists can be very, very creative in their approach. It's very person centered. We utilize the things of the occupations that people do as forms of intervention, which is it's a really unique way of addressing the needs of our patients.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. Now, as you think of students, whether they are looking at going to become an occupational therapist or whatever graduate degree that they have an interest in, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:13:50]: It takes sacrifice. It really does take sacrifice. I think sometimes people think it's going to be easy. I'm gonna do this thing and it's gonna be easy and I'm gonna get through it and but it really does take a lot of sacrifice in your time. Sometimes it's financial sacrifice. I mean, I have student loans. Nobody paid for me to go to school. I had my GI bill, which paid for a very small portion of my undergraduate degree.

Dr. Julie Jacob [00:14:11]: And after that, it was all loans. So there was a definitely a financial sacrifice for me. There's a time sacrifice as far as having to work and balance all of those things. And even with my doctorate degree, I have children. So there's the sacrifice there, and they understood and were very supportive. But I think you need to be able to recognize that in advance and just have that expectation that sometimes not everything is gonna go perfectly, but it's worth it to put in the work. You just have to put in the work to get to your goal. And all of it is worth it in the end to be able to get there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:41]: Well, Julie, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for your time today, for sharing your own journey, and I wish you all the best. Thank you. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:22]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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The Value of Graduate Education: A Stepping Stone for Career Development

In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis interviewed Endia Crabtree, an accomplished professional with a background in anthropology, public health education, and medical writing. Throughout the discussion, Crabtree emphasized how graduate education enriched her skills and positioned her for career opportunities. Her journey exemplifies how graduate programs provide more than just theoretical knowledge—they shape individuals into problem-solvers and leaders prepared to tackle real-world challenges. For Crabtree, graduate school was not only an academic pursuit but also an avenue to discover and act on her passions, from studying forensic anthropology to addressing public health disparities.

Finding Passion and Purpose

Crabtree’s educational path began with a fascination for forensic anthropology, inspired by her undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan Flint. Eventually, her curiosity shifted toward understanding health outcomes across cultures, sparking a passion for public health. Graduate school became the launching pad for her decision to pursue research and interventions focusing on populations affected by diseases such as cancer and HIV, particularly within underserved communities. For Crabtree, discovering a population-driven focus helped her align her professional goals with deeply personal motivations, such as her family’s experience with cancer.

Leveraging Networking and Professional Organizations

A recurring theme in Crabtree’s journey was the importance of proactively building relationships and engaging with professional organizations. From her undergraduate days to her postdoctoral fellowships, her active involvement in groups like the American Public Health Association and MedTech Women enabled her to network, share knowledge, and collaborate across diverse fields. These connections opened doors to opportunities and exposed her to cross-functional teamwork. Aspiring graduate students can replicate her success by joining such communities, contributing to their efforts, and gaining valuable leadership experience.

The Grad School Toolbox: Collaboration, Accountability, and Adaptability

One of Crabtree’s key takeaways from graduate education was learning to collaborate effectively—a skill she still utilizes daily in her current role as principal clinical product risk scientist at Boston Scientific. Group projects, though sometimes challenging, taught her the importance of accountability, shared goals, and strategic planning. She noted that these experiences prepared her for cross-functional teamwork in global settings.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Crabtree’s journey underscores the importance of entering graduate school with intention and an openness to pivot. Her advice to students? View classmates as allies, not competitors, and prioritize building supportive relationships. Whether through group projects or networking events, working collaboratively can lead to lasting friendships, resource sharing, and professional growth.

Endia Crabtree’s inspiring journey serves as a testament to the transformative potential of graduate education, emphasizing the value of perseverance, collaboration, and a passion for lifelong learning.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we have a great opportunity to be able to connect and to be able to walk hand in hand together on this journey that you're on to get that graduate degree. Now you could be at the very beginning working to try to figure out, do I really wanna do this? Do I wanna get that graduate degree? Or maybe you're in a program and you're currently in there trying to figure out, okay, what do I need to do next? Or maybe that light at the end of the tunnel is getting closer and you're getting ready to graduate. No matter where you are, there are things that you can do to find success in this journey that you're on, and that's why this podcast exists. Every week, I love being able to talk to you about different resources, different skills, different things that you can do to be able to find success in the journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: And we do that through introducing you to other people, people that have gone before you, have gone and gotten degrees or are currently in degrees and have had an opportunity to be able to find success for themselves. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Endia Kramtree is well, doctor Endia Kramtree is with us today, and Endia is the principal clinical product risk scientist at Boston Scientific. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her and to have her share some of her journey with us in Endia. Thanks so much for being here today.

Endia Crabtree [00:01:48]: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited about this. I love you, Evelyn Flynn. It's my first stomping ground.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here today and to learn more about this journey that you've been on because you've had a bit of a journey where you've gotten numerous degrees and different steps to where you are today. I wanna start off our conversation by turning the clock back in time. I wanna go back to that undergraduate work that you were doing. I know you got a bachelor of arts in anthropology, but you also had a concentration in medical anthropology. And then at some point in that undergraduate degree, you made a decision to move on and get a master's degree. What made you choose to continue your education and get that graduate degree?

Endia Crabtree [00:02:32]: 1st, I was interested in forensic anthropology, and I initially majored in biology because biology is the foundation of forensic anthropology. You're trying to understand the underlying causes of death or mortality for people whose remains it could have been discovered several months or years ago to centuries ago. And it was just really fascinating to me to learn about a person's life, what they've been through, any health ailments that they may have had. And as you need biology to know how to do that, you need biology, you need chemistry, you need all of these, what they like to call the big life sciences to understand that. And when I first started off as a freshman, actually before I switched over to major in anthropology, I took a biology class. It was organismal biology. 1st class as a freshman, 2005. And I walk in there, and there's over 200 students, which at the University of Michigan Flint campus, I did not expect.

Endia Crabtree [00:03:38]: And it was a difficult class, but it was a good class. I did learn a lot. But after taking that class and went into my 2nd semester, I took cultural anthropology, and I also took a an archaeology class, and that is actually what introduced me to anthropology itself. So even though I've heard of forensic anthropology, I did not know about the anthropology part about the about anthropology. I just thought of it as, you know, another science. And at that time, in 2005, CSI and all of those programs were huge for that time. That was a big deal. So myself among and other people were really interested in taking that path, but I specifically it was myself and only myself who was doing forensics.

Endia Crabtree [00:04:25]: So, anyway, to back up a little bit, I switched out of biology and decided to major in anthropology because, a, I connected with the professors immediately. I liked my classmates more. The classes were smaller. And and it which is part of why I went to University of Michigan Flint. I've always loved Michigan. I live and breathe, bleed blue all day, but I needed to do it in a smaller space. It's on a smaller campus. But with that said, at being at University of Michigan Flint versus at Narber, you do have smaller labs.

Endia Crabtree [00:04:57]: You will have less people to interact with for something as niche as forensic anthropology. So, anyway, to fast forward, I'd say going on to my senior year, I've taken by my senior year, of course, I've taken pretty much every class in my major. I even did archaeology field school at one point, which was really cool, and that actually introduced me to paleontology. And I also love that, but there was something about studying and working with people who are deceased that over time became it was sad and it was dark in the lab. It was a little boring. You know, I just didn't enjoy it as much even though I did love my professor who was doctor Beverly Smith. I learned over time that it just wasn't for me. I was like, well, maybe I I love anthropology, but maybe I should think about how can I contribute to this world by helping people who are alive? And so medical anthropology, my senior year, and it was there that I actually got exposed to public health and exposed to health, health outcomes, wellness, the understanding of what health is, how is it how it's defined, what wellness means from a cross cultural perspective, from perspective outside of the United States, so outside of a permiritricism, outside of US and western thoughts, that really blew my mind.

Endia Crabtree [00:06:19]: I could not believe that there was a concentration, a profession, a pathway that even exposes you to health and the meaning of that across cultures. And so I took that class. I learned about Eastern medicine. I learned about medicine in pretty much every continent, and it was there that I decided that, public health, this is what I want to do. This is where I need to be. I am passionate about health and helping people. And at the time, University of Michigan Flint offered, MS in health education. And my senior year of undergrad, I actually took the first grad course, which was health behavior theory or something along those lines.

Endia Crabtree [00:07:06]: It may have a different name by now, but health behavior theory with doctor Shan Parker. And I was given the opportunity to take that course, which is the first course in the program to see how I would do before I was granted full enrollment. It was extremely difficult, but I loved it. I learned so much. That was a huge pivot from the way that I had to think to the way that I had to write. And I went from more of a qualitative thinker to a quantitative thinker, and the rest is history. And it was also there that I learned that I need to pick a population, which for me at the time was HIV and STI among black or African Americans and other minorities. Just trying to understand the impact of that disease from both a knowledge standpoint.

Endia Crabtree [00:07:54]: So what do people already know about this? What is the understanding of transmission and treatment and the long term effects of that? And I chose that disease ailment at the time because that is what my adviser was working on. And so and so that's why I decided to go into that program. I did the MS in health education or public health education as I like to put it. I like to put the public health in there instead of just leaving it as health education is often confused with gym teacher, which is an honorable pathway and profession, but it is often confused. So saying public health education over just health education was better understood by the public when I talk to people about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:34]: So I know that you completed that degree, You finished that program up. You went. You did some work out in the field. You you did a number of different things over the years. And at some point, between the end of that degree and the late 20 tens, you decided to get another degree, and you decided to start a program toward a doctorate of philosophy, a PhD in public health education. So talk to me about that and why you made the decision that you wanted to go further and go from having that master of science in public health education to then pushing yourself to getting a doctor degree in in public education as well.

Endia Crabtree [00:09:16]: So I knew pretty early on, honestly, as an undergrad that I would need to pursue as high education as possible. I knew at least my junior year, even before I decided which pathway that I wanted to take, I always knew I need to get a PhD. Anthropology is not a major or at least at the time, and I I wanna make that clear for back in 2005 to 2010. If you major in anthropology, you are majoring in a profession that you do need to get graduate education on. At the time, I knew of no other anthropologist regardless of their chosen pathway, whether it be cultural, forensic, biological anthropology, linguistics, They all went on for a PhD. And even though I did pivot from anthropology to public health, it's the same story. Though public health professionals can stop and often do stop at an Miles per hour, which is totally fine, I knew that I wanted to do research. And if I was gonna be taken seriously as a research, and honestly, as a black woman, I felt that I needed to do it all.

Endia Crabtree [00:10:30]: Like, I needed to go as far as possible so that not only will I give myself access to several jobs in public health, in the sciences, as a scientist, as a a person who's, you know, taking seriously as a researcher that I would not leave myself any gaps, that that I would not leave any room for denial for a particular position because I don't have that. And wanting to be a scientist slash researcher going to get a PhD, it trains you and exposes you to what that actual environment looks like regardless of the path chosen. When I was in my 2nd year of the MS in public health education program when I realized that I wanted to pivot from HIV to cancer. So I actually have a family history of cancer. My mother had colorectal cancer when I was 13, stage 3, and she was only 42 at the time. So familiar with Chadwick Boseman, she was literally in the same boat as him, but she's still with us today. Believe it or not, she what was that? 20,021,001 when she was diagnosed, but it made a huge impact on me. I didn't just wanna be behind the scenes to find a treatment for cancer.

Endia Crabtree [00:11:49]: I also wanted to be like I wanted to understand the the who, what, when, where, why. I wanted to understand the cause the cause and effect. What causes this? Why are certain populations more affected than others? Why was my mother diagnosed so early? Was it the job that she worked? Is it the ZIP code that we lived in? I mean, I had these questions. These are my these are the questions that I had. I wanted to understand, and she's not the only person my family affected. I am from Flint, Michigan. I grew up there. My parents worked in GM.

Endia Crabtree [00:12:19]: My father's a Vietnam vet. A lot of people were inflicted with cancer there. And so, no, this is my life. I never did it for accolades either. I just wanted to have opportunity. But, yes, I pivoted my my second year second and last year of the MS program and pursued a PhD in public health education, but I had a concentration in epidemiology. And I concentrate in epidemiology so that I can, you know, focus on the who, what, when, where, the distribution of the disease, who's affected, why why is a person in ZIP code a, Why are they experiencing later diagnoses in a person in ZIP code b? Is it because of money, socioeconomic status? Is it simply because a person is a person of color, or is it because of where they live and their circumstances and the food that they have access to? So these are real questions that are being asked and are being researched, and I wanted to know not just what causes it, but how does it come back. So I was on the survivorship end of the spectrum.

Endia Crabtree [00:13:20]: And while I was in school studying this, having all this on my mind, trying to figure it out, I was also a full time employee at FedEx. I am one of the rare few who went school full time and worked full time. I needed to make money, and I also needed to get this degree. And I still finished on time somehow. But because I was working full time, I was not a traditional PhD student, so I was not able to dedicate as much time to research and publishing outside of my dissertation work. So it was actually my 2nd year of my PhD program when I realized I needed to go on and pursue a postdoc. So, postdoctoral fellowship where I did 2 years at the University of sin Cincinnati Cancer Institute, where I had the honor and privilege to working with doctor Beverly Riegle, who started their cancer survivorship clinic. And it was there that I got to work with the team to start a clinic and learn about research from the administrative side.

Endia Crabtree [00:14:22]: And that was an awesome experience, but because I was learning from the administrative side and still, just like with my PhD, didn't have much opportunity to pursue research full time as a traditional student slash postdoc. I went on and did another 2 years at Cincinnati Children's Hospital. And while I was there, in order to supplement my education and when I was learning, I was taking courses. Like, I did a certificate here, certificate there, and took some courses at Johns Hopkins University. And the courses that I took, which were I took geographic information systems, and I took an environmental health course. I learned that I could actually earn a degree if I took just a few more courses. So I went ahead and pursued the master's of liberal arts. I had no initial plans to do this, but while I was on track, I was like, I might as well.

Endia Crabtree [00:15:15]: Like, I've been a student so long, and I knew how to do it. So I just went ahead and and pursued that. But I'm really thankful for that because I while I was at Johns Hopkins, I also gained a new a new network, and I was able to work on a social epidemiology project that I was interested in. And I did that from 2017 to 2019. I enjoyed that. And although that was a great opportunity as well as my postdoc, I needed to settle myself back down and sort of come back out of the clouds and say, okay. What am I gonna do with all of this? Now I have a lot. I have more than I ever imagined.

Endia Crabtree [00:15:54]: I have a certificate in in environmental epidemiology at the Ohio State University. I have this new MLA, the PhD, the MS. I have all of these credentials, but I need to actually pull all of this together and do something with it and well, make a decision about it. I knew that I was gonna do something. I was not gonna do my math with not you know, with nothing to show for it. But when I was a post tech at children's, I was really involved with the office of postdoctoral affairs, and I actually, along with other postdoctoral fellows, created a diversity group in partnership between the University of Cincinnati and Cincinnati Children's. And and I got to learn a lot about what people were doing with their pathways where we were all different PhDs from biomedical science to psychology to biomedical informatics. I mean, everyone was doing a little bit of we were really diverse.

Endia Crabtree [00:16:49]: We were representing all sorts of fields. But, yeah, I was there at Cincinnati Children's Hospital that I learned about what it really meant to be a researcher in an academic space. And over time, I learned that that wasn't for me. As much as I will forever be passionate about cancer research and as much as that means to me, I didn't think it was the right space for me to be in an academic center. So I began to search other opportunities of which I learned about the pathway that I'm in now, which I will get into later, is medical writing. And I learned about that field through a postdoc careers panel. That was a panel event that happened. It was at one of our monthly postdoctoral affairs meetings.

Endia Crabtree [00:17:28]: So

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:29]: one of the things that I think that I'm gonna have you explain because we haven't had a lot of people on the show that have done postdocs. So talk to me a little bit about what is a postdoc so that people can understand what that is. And you did a number of different postdocs. So how does someone find these postdocs, and and what type of you know, what's the expectation for someone in these type of roles, etcetera?

Endia Crabtree [00:17:56]: So a postdoc is someone who is going on to do research in a learning environment who has earned a PhD or a similar doctoral degree, such as like a doctor of public health. And I've even known MD, PhD, so medical doctors who are also pursuing the physician scientist roles. So not only are they a physician, but they're also PIs or principal investigators or leaders in a laboratory. So, for example, a neurosurgeon who is also a neuroscientist, but I pursued a postdoc because a postdoctoral fellowship or post or postdoc for short, I pursued that because of my unique experience as a PhD student who did not have as much research exposure doing active research at a traditional PhD student. So by that, I mean, someone who may be able to publish 2 to 5 articles based on a project that they're working with with their with a professor or their dissertation chair or whatnot. And postdoctoral fellowships can vary. You could be like, if you're pursuing biology, maybe you're a PhD or post doctoral fellow in the biology lab of a National Institute of Health funded professor at University of Michigan Ann Arbor. Not Michigan State, University of Michigan Ann Arbor.

Endia Crabtree [00:19:26]: I must make that clear. And so it is there that because you already have a PhD, you're not considered like, you're not a traditional student. Like, you're no longer pursuing a degree. You're pursuing a position in the sciences in in a lab, like one day you want to learn how to run your own lab, that is a great place to be because you are leading students who are pursuing a PhD or undergrads or master students. Some of them are teaching just like PhD students, some teach courses. And so those postdoctoral fellowship, I found mine through networking. The professor who was my principal investigator, which is the name for boss for for a postdoc. Like, that's your supervisor no slash supervisor for your postdoc.

Endia Crabtree [00:20:14]: I met her through a class that I took of hers, which was cancer survivorship rehabilitation. And she and I connected so well, and I set a meeting with her, and I explained with her I explained to her what my situation was, like, that I wasn't a traditional student, that I had this passion for cancer survivorship, but it's such a niche area. She was the only person at the time that I knew that was doing that work, and I knew that I was gonna need something beyond my PhD to be ready for the workforce, whichever pathway that was. And so she and I worked together for the the my remaining years in the PhD program to come up with the grant money to fund that. Postdoctoral fellowships are funded by grants. If they're at a university or a government or a government entity like the CDC, unless you receive 1, like, at a corporation, which I do not know much about or what that looks like, but they they do come in various shapes and sizes, and they can be from 1 year to 7 years, believe it or not, with renewals in between. And the 2 postdocs that I had were each 2 years. So at UC, University of Cincinnati Cancer Institute, it was 2 years.

Endia Crabtree [00:21:28]: And then at Cincinnati Children's, it was 2 years. And my principal investigator there, I met through my current PI or principal investigator slash supervisor from my u University of Cincinnati Cancer Institute postdoc. And so that's why my postdoc was 4 years. And and I'm thankful for both of them. I'm thankful for both of those PIs, all the professors that I've met along the way. I'll forever be grateful to them for those opportunities because they definitely did prepare me for where I am now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:59]: So you mentioned that you got a doctor degree from the University of Cincinnati, and there's a lot of different types of programs that are out in the world that you could have probably chosen to look at for public health education. Talk to me about what made you decide that University of Cincinnati was the right program for you.

Endia Crabtree [00:22:18]: My mother's from Hamilton, Ohio, and actually do have some family here. And I was always familiar with Cincinnati. I had an older cousin who went there, and I was also familiar with some of the professors at in the public health education department or program at UC, and it's also a Research 1 institution similar to the University of Michigan system. And Research 1 institution just simply means high research impact or output university, where they have a lot of research dollars, a lot of labs, state of the art labs and equipment, and it was a big school. And I am a person who's really big on cross collaboration. I've been cross collaborating across departments since I was in undergrad. For example, my cancer survivorship professor at the University of Cincinnati was a PhD in nursing. She has a nursing she is a nurse.

Endia Crabtree [00:23:15]: She's an RN. She's not a public health professional, but she was doing cancer survivorship. I care more about who was doing the work than what their concentration was, And that's how I ended up with her. That's how I ended up with still I have to have my health education dissertation people. And for at children's, my research supervisor or PI, she was a clinical psychologist. But, anyway, there was a lot of opportunity here in Cincinnati that that mirrored what I experienced in Michigan. And what I actually did mention earlier was that when I was a MS student, a master's in health education student at University of Michigan Flint, I had a great opportunity to be a part of a research project that was in partnership with Ann Arbor. So I actually got to go to Ann Arbor a lot.

Endia Crabtree [00:24:05]: I half of my work was done in Ann Arbor, and the other half was, my research work was in Ann Arbor. My coursework was in University of Michigan Flint, and it was really cool to be able to be there in their public health department and to sit in their classrooms and be a part of those workshops and to get to know professors there that I work with on on an HIV project. So and that's the beauty of that system of the University of Michigan system is that, hey. I I took classes at University of Michigan Flint. I was able to get the one professor for every 35 student ratio. So I had the small class sizes, but I had the research experience of someone in Ann Arbor. And I was a part of the undergraduate research opportunity program, which is called UROP or u r o p, and I got to present at University of Michigan Dearborn. So so I've been at every single campus just because of one research project that I worked on, and that was really cool.

Endia Crabtree [00:25:05]: And Cincinnati, it has one other no. There's there are 2 other campuses. I haven't been to the other 2, Clermont and Blue Ash, but the university is huge, and it has a massive hospitals. Again, it reminded me a lot of Ann Arbor, a lot of the University of Michigan system. And so that was also part of what what attracted me in addition to my family being here and the professors that that were here as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:30]: Now you did finish your degree. You found success in graduate school, in the master's degrees, in the PhD. And as you entered each and every one of those programs, you go through a transition. And there is a, at every point in your education, you have to learn about that new way that that school educates, the professors educate. You know, there's a lot of pieces that you have to figure out along the way. As you think back to the experiences that you had, as you transitioned into graduate school at all of those different levels, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned in? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that entire graduate school experience?

Endia Crabtree [00:26:15]: For every level, even where I am today, is be vocal and intentional. I always do my own research before I do everything. I never went into any situation or to any program assuming that, okay, I'm gonna get this degree, and I'm gonna have a job waiting for me. That is just not reality. I am a person who will talk to anyone. And if I want to know something, I just reach out to people. I got comfortable with doing that because of my involvement. I have been involved with several professional societies ever since I've been in undergrad.

Endia Crabtree [00:26:49]: I started off in the American Anthropology Association. I joined a committee there, And then next, I joined the American Public Health Association. I joined the Society of Public Health Education. I was inducted to Eta Sigma Gamma Health Education Honor Society. I mean, the Anthropology Honor Society, Lambda Alpha. And my involvement with professional societies has been in alignment with what I am doing or where I am at that time. Although I'm no longer a member of the American Public Health Association, I'm still a supporter of it because they do a ton of work for the overall public health of not just the US, but globally. But I've, you know, with each step, I've I've joined the American I mean, sorry, the National Postdoctoral Association, MedTech Women, which I am a woman in MedTech now.

Endia Crabtree [00:27:37]: So I joined MedTech Women. And with each organization I involve, I don't just join to be a member. I join committees. And in those committees, I meet people, and the people that I meet are doing things that may or may not be aligned with what I'm doing, but I do learn a lot from them. And I've mentored and was a mentee and vice versa. I do both. I have a mentor and I'm a mentee, and it's all about learning and just being open to learning and not afraid to pivot or to do something different. Your dream job may not be the title that you even like, what I my title now, I would've I've never heard of until I got this position, but the job description had it all.

Endia Crabtree [00:28:19]: And I highly recommend researching beyond what you know. Get out of your comfort zone. Do talk to people. Do get involved. Joining organizations also is not cheap, so be very intentional about which ones you join and when. But it's also, you know, a two way street. Don't just be a part of something just to be a part of or just to throw it on your resume. What did you contribute? What did you give back? You know, what was your service? Did you publish with people? Did you help collect some research data? Did you do anything to improve the organization? You learn leadership skills, and what you learn, you give back.

Endia Crabtree [00:28:57]: I'm really big on that, especially someone being someone from Flint, Michigan. I always give Flint a shout out. I I went to Flint Community Schools. I went to Flint Southwestern Academy, which is now Flint Southwestern Classical Academy. It has so many names with the schools. None of this was ever for me, and and I am a resource too. Just FYI, please get my email and LinkedIn. But, yeah, just just be open and willing because pivoting was the best thing I've ever done and continue to do.

Endia Crabtree [00:29:28]: I have been in my current field now for 5 years in the medical technology industry. I do actually use what I learned in school, what I learned in the committees. I do apply leadership aptitude, emotional intelligence. I have over a decade of experience in diversity, equity, and inclusion work. I gained all that just from being in, like, serving in committees in professional societies. And I met a lot of people along the way, and it's okay to do that. It's okay to talk to someone who, you know, if you're going into public health, it's okay to talk to a physician or a nurse or a psychologist, which is are all things I did. And I learned a lot from all those different people, even people who weren't doing cancer research or HIV research.

Endia Crabtree [00:30:12]: It didn't matter to me. You can learn from anyone, but do your best not to lose focus, but also know that opportunities are all around you. But you have to take the leap to know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:21]: Now one of the things that I would have an interest in hearing more from you on is that you've got now a few different degrees. You've got the public health education at both the master's and doctorate level. You did a master, liberal studies as well, and you have your bachelor's degree in anthropology. So you have a a a wide array of different education under your belt, plus the postdocs that we are also already talked about. So as you've completed these degrees and now you're in your professional career and you look back at this graduate education that you've had, how has it prepared you to do the work that you do on a daily basis?

Endia Crabtree [00:31:01]: Well, the programs that I was a part of, each and every one of them instilled in us the importance of accountability. So I do hold myself accountable. I hold myself responsible, but I also know and have learned in those programs that I can ask questions. I ask questions in front of people in the classroom. I ask questions outside of the classroom. Believe it or not, those group projects that you probably hate in school right now do actually matter, and you actually will be working with other people. I work cross functionally right now with a lot of people. I work in groups every day.

Endia Crabtree [00:31:46]: Those groups can change. I work with a lot of different people, not just from the US, but also across the globe. And those group projects that I used to hate and wonder why, wonder why I was doing that, I look back at that and I'm like, okay. So not only was I put in a position to learn how to work with other people, but also how to plan and strategize, set goals, set timelines. And and, yeah, like, of all things that I've learned outside of being accountable, taking responsibility, but also learning how to work with people, I at no point working a silo, and I so appreciate all of those group projects. That is all grad one thing I can remember about grad school is that is most of what it was outside of the tests and the papers is group project this, group project that. Every assignment was a project with some people. And I'm like, okay.

Endia Crabtree [00:32:44]: Thank god I did that because that might have been a lot harder today. And that continued on through post doc too. That was you know, that that continued on. It is my life now, and I'm thankful for that. So definitely group work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:58]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. As you think about other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to all students that would help them find success sooner?

Endia Crabtree [00:33:13]: Understand that your class mates are your allies, not your competition. We get through grad school a lot smoother when we work together. And by working together, I do not mean what did that test look like, not your grades, not how am I gonna get through this task. It's how am I gonna get through with these people, with my cohort? What can we do to uplift each other? Uplift your classmates. Your professor is your resource. Don't be afraid to ask them questions. You may come across upperclassmen, which isn't really a thing in grad school, but someone who's in their 2nd year or something. Talk to that person.

Endia Crabtree [00:33:54]: Ask them how they got through their 1st year. I'm just a huge proponent of reaching out to people. And I'm also introverted, believe it or not. I get tired. I get exhausted. You can do that as an intro. You do not have to be an extrovert to talk to to talk to people. We all have our different ways of doing so.

Endia Crabtree [00:34:14]: For me, I wasn't always outspoken in class. I became that out over time, but initially, I would just shoot an email or, you know, if I become friends with someone, send a text or there were various ways to do that. It doesn't you don't have to be there's no one way to do it, but just know that, again, I can't stress enough that your classmates are not your competition, like, you are each other's allies, and please take advantage of that. You make lifetime friends. Actually, my maid of honor was my was one of my, PhD classmates. He became my lifetime best friend. You never know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:48]: Well, Endia, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for opening our eyes to the different types of opportunities that may exist post PhD or beyond to be able to continue that education and make the world a better place. And I truly wish you all the best.

Endia Crabtree [00:35:06]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:07]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Undertaking the path from a Bachelor’s degree to gaining a Ph.D. in Physical Therapy (PT) is not just an academic pursuit but a transformative journey of personal and professional growth. Dr. Cathy Larson, the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, joins the Victors in Grad School podcast to share her remarkable voyage through the layers of graduate education, her decision points, and insights for aspiring scholars.

The Early Years: Finding Direction From Pre-Vet to Physical Therapy Dr. Larson embarked on her academic journey at Michigan State University intending to become a veterinarian. However, a pivot towards human healthcare led her to discover physical therapy. Experiences shadowing PTs and OTs at Sparrow Hospital sparked her interest in the field, prompting her to shift her focus from pre-vet to physiology to better prepare for a PT career.

Exploring Educational Options At a time when PT programs were transitioning from bachelor’s to master’s degrees, Dr. Larson was strategic in her selection, focusing on institutions offering a Master of Science. After visiting several campuses, the University of Alabama stood out due to her connection with the faculty and the research opportunities it offered. She cherished her clinical and educational experiences, working in diverse locations and handling a wide range of cases, including some in unconventional settings like Cook County Hospital in Chicago.

The Leap to Academia Returning to Academia Despite an enriching clinical career spanning three decades, Dr. Larson felt an insatiable curiosity and a desire to delve deeper into research. Balancing young children and a part-time clinical position, she pursued her Ph.D. in Kinesiology at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, seeking to gain the skills necessary for independent research and to fulfill her passion for teaching.

Developing Research Skills Dr. Larson highlighted the need for a Ph.D. to conduct rigorous research, which is integral to addressing complex questions arising in clinical practice. Her coursework and seminars equipped her with advanced research methodologies and critical evaluation skills, elements she felt lacked even in advanced clinical practice.

Teaching and Nurturing New Generations Directing the PT PhD Program As the Director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint, Dr. Larson now leads the charge in preparing future physical therapists for academic and research roles. She underscores the program's unique blend of catering to those who have completed their DPT and those pursuing dual DPT/PhD paths, thus fulfilling a niche in physical therapy education.

Preparing for Success in Graduate School Dr. Larson reflects on the evolution from clinician to scholar, emphasizing the importance of organizational skills, effective study strategies, and stress management. These foundational elements, cultivated during undergraduate studies, are crucial for thriving in the rigorous environment of graduate programs.

Embracing Continuous Learning The Multifaceted Career of a Physical Therapist One of the appeals of the physical therapy profession, as Dr. Larson articulates, is its versatility. Physical therapists can engage in clinical practice, education, research, or a combination thereof, continually evolving within their careers without needing to switch fields entirely. This multidisciplinary nature enriches the professional landscape, allowing PTs to pursue diverse passions and redefine their roles continuously.

Dr. Larson’s journey underscores that graduate education, particularly in physical therapy, is more than a means to an end—it’s a path of continuous learning and professional development. Her insights offer invaluable guidance for those considering advanced degrees, illustrating that the quest for knowledge and improvement doesn’t stop at the clinic but extends into the realms of research and education. Aspiring PTs can draw inspiration from her experiences and understand that every step, every challenge, and every triumph on this path is a significant stride toward making impactful contributions to the field of physical therapy.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, we are on a journey together. We have this opportunity to be able to talk every week and be able to look at what I call your journey, your educational journey. It is a journey because no matter where you are, you may be just starting to think about graduate school. Maybe you applied, you're waiting on that answer, or you got that answer and you and you've gotten accepted and now you're figuring out, am I going to go there? Am I going to do this? You know, what's next? Or maybe you're in graduate school and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're or maybe you're close to being done. And now you're looking at what's next.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: No matter where you are in this journey, there are things that you can do to be successful in the journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to have this opportunity to talk with you, to walk with you, to help you to find success, find tools, find resources, things that you can do to be able to build some tools for your own toolbox and prepare yourself even more for the success that you want in graduate school. Every week, I introduce you to different people with different experiences. And this week, we got another great guest with us. Doctor Cathy Larson is with us. And doctor Larson is the director of the PT PhD program at the University of Michigan Flint. And I'm really excited to have her here. She did her undergraduate work at Michigan State University, getting a bachelor's in physiology, and then went on and got a master of science degree in physical therapy when all the PG programs were still requiring the master's. That's changed now. Now all the PT programs are requiring a doctorate degree in physical therapy. And her PT degree was from the University of Alabama. And then she went on to get a PhD in kinesiology from the University of Michigan. So I'm really excited for her to share some of her own journey with you, but also her journey as a faculty member. And I'm excited to introduce her to you. Cathy, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:16]: Well, thank you, Chris. It was a nice introduction. And yes, that so far has been my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:21]: Well, I really appreciate you being here today. And what I wanna do first and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I wanna use that magic wand of mine to go back in time. And I wanna go back to Michigan State University, where you were working on that bachelor's degree. And at some point during that time at Michigan State University, you had this inkling, you had this thought, you said, I want to go beyond getting this bachelor's degree in physiology to get a degree in physical therapy. Talk to me about that point. What made you decide physical therapy was the field that you wanted to study?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:02:55]: Well, that's a great question because to be honest with you, I went to Michigan State University thinking that I was going to become a vet. They have a great vet school at Michigan State. I went there and maybe I'm still a vet wannabe, but I did get the opportunity to explore different careers, and I was looking for a health career. So I decided that I wanted to really be beneficial to not animals, but human beings. So I I got the opportunity to go and explore different health fields. I went to Sparrow Hospital, for example, and observed their PT department, OT, etcetera. And then I really got a spark when I was exploring physical therapy. And so I contemplated quite a while to figure out if that's what I wanted to do.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:03:51]: And so I did shadow some physical therapists. I shadowed an OT as well, but then I decided that PT was what I wanted to do. I was pre vet. So I ended up trying to figure out which undergraduate degree would best prepare me for PT. So I chose first physiology, which I got to do some research as an undergraduate student. I was able to take all my prerequisites for my PT degree, applying for the PT degree. And at that point in time, it was a master's degree. So there were only like maybe 8 programs, because this was in the period when we were converting from bachelor programs to master's degrees.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:04:38]: And I was starting to get to the point that I was almost at the end of my bachelor's degree when I decided. So I ended up really just thinking about that. And to be honest with you, my mom was really influential in saying, well, if you've got, if you're close to a bachelor's degree, finish that and then try to apply for a master's degree, which in the long run really served me well because then I had the master's degree and the ability to apply for a PhD. So I had that master's degree and it was in physical therapy. It was in Alabama. So I loved Birmingham. I loved the warm weather. I remember walking around with all the dogwood trees and all the rhododendrons, etcetera.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:24]: But I really enjoyed that experience because there were only 8 people in the master's program, but then there were a much larger number in the bachelor's program. So they had both and the 8 of us were treated, I want to say a little bit special because we got more individual attention. I just got great experiences. I had great clinical experiences in my master's degree. I still think back on those and I got to do them across the country. So I was in St. Louis for a while. I was actually in Kentucky and did some of my clinicals.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:05:58]: I did one in Chicago, which was very meaningful because I was born in bad ex Michigan. I'm a rural girl. And so going to Chicago and I was working at Cook County Hospital there or doing my affiliation, my clinical affiliation at Cook County. And I ended up treating a patient that was in shackles and, you know, that was a little difficult to have him walk up the stairs, but I was exposed to a huge variety of patients. I remember this was the first time that I saw a patient wearing a halo, which is a huge cumbersome neck brace, which we still use in PT. But I, he was walking around with the halo and I'm going, wait a minute, this does not compute. He had a spinal cord injury and he's walking around, but he was mainly involved in his upper extremities. So it was just like very startling.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:06:57]: So my journey has been kind of a longer one because I, you know, I did do my bachelor's degree then, I did immediately go into my master's degree, but then I waited to start my PhD in Ann Arbor. Now I lived in the Ypsilanti area, so Ann Arbor was close, but I needed to go and talk to potential chairs. So you do need to align yourself just like we do now for our PhD program at U of M Flint. You do want to align yourself with a chair that is investigating areas of study that are passions for you as well. So to match up with a chair. So I did a lot of exploration and I did find Charles Warrenham, who was my initial chair at U of M in Ann Arbor. And he was studying movement sciences, which mirrored in, you know, it was a definite positive experience for me as a physical therapist. And I did work in the clinic.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:06]: I worked in the clinic. I'm not working right now, but I worked in the clinic for a significantly long time, mainly at the Rehab Institute of Michigan in Detroit that I worked as a clinician for, what, 30 years total on and off.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:23]: One question that I have for you is you had mentioned back at the master's level. Let's go back there first. You talked about the fact that at the time when you were looking at physical therapy schools, there were only a handful of schools out there. So I'm sure you did some searching, some exploration to look at those 8 programs that you mentioned that were out there that would allow for a student to come in at a master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for? Master's level. For you, as you were looking at those, what were you looking for and what made you ultimately decide to go to the University of Alabama?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:08:57]: Well, the University of Alabama had a master's of science. So that's why, what I was looking for. So I did want that master's degree, but I visited many of the campuses. So fortunately I had the financial means to go and, and some of them actually did, have obligatory. This was before internet. So we needed to travel as opposed to having an online interview. That was not an option at that time. So I did visit a few of those places.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:09:32]: And then I just, when I got to the university of Alabama, I just clicked with the faculty that I was interviewing and speaking with. I was allowed to, you know, talk with faculty over a 2 day period, which gave me a lot of time to get to know people. And then, so, and then I just clicked with several of the faculty members and it was a pleasure to get to know them, understand what their research is. And then to be honest with you, we didn't figure out exactly the who was gonna chair my master's thesis, but that, that ended up being a very positive experience. So it was a connection with the faculty and what they do and their program and they're laying it out and laid the program out. There were a huge dynamic faculty there and they influenced my decisions. And so while I was there, I was starting to say, you know what? I do wanna be a clinician first. So I was a clinician for multiple years until I decided to go back and get my PhD, but I ended up through the master's degree experience, wanting to be like these dynamic faculty.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:10:47]: And they were dynamic for multiple reasons. They helped you learn the material. They had time for 1 on 1 conversations while you're going through the courses, but they were also very involved with the American Physical Therapy Association. And they would bring speakers in, and we would learn from the speakers. I started going to the combined sections meetings through the APTA as a student there. I became a member of the APTA as a student way back when, and I have maintained my membership in the APTA ever since my student experience. So that was influential. When I was at the conferences, the faculty introduced me and helped me start to build my network.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:11:39]: So I'm talking too much about what happened as a master's student, but also your, your main question was what influenced me. And it truly was the connection with the faculty that said, okay, this is my home. This can be my home for a period of time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:57]: And I mentioned at the beginning, and you mentioned the journey continued on after going out, working, being a professional clinician for a number of years, you decided to go back to school to get a PhD. And not every physical therapist wants to do that. You know, many PTs are they're happy with the patient contact, the patient care, the work that they're doing in that clinical setting. You decided you wanted to go further, continue on with the re some of the research things that you you enjoyed and your master's degree. So talk to me about that decision. What made you decide that going back to school to get that PhD in kinesiology was the route that you wanted to take?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:12:42]: Okay. Well, I would like to express to you that I had young children at the time. So I was like, should I delay? Should I delay? And then I spoke to myself. I ended up going part time as a clinician. So I cut down my hours and then I joined the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor Kinesiology department. I just really wanted to well, as a clinician, I didn't feel like I had the tools to perform research as well as I would like to. So I did not believe like, we had the opportunity to do research as a master's degree student, but I still didn't think I had the tools to make this research a big part of my career. So I was feeling that when I was in the clinic, I was like, well, I certainly would like to address this question about patient care or I'd like to do this about, you know, I would have issues arise with my patients and I'm going, I would really like to explore those issues, but to I didn't feel like I had the skills.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:13:51]: So I looked for a PhD program. Ann Arbor was a beautiful experience in that I learned so many skills that I did not have as a clinician to be able to carry out my own independent research projects. And that's what I think every PhD student's goal is to really dive into, like, research design, how to, of course, critically evaluate a research study and know enough about statistics to understand if they were correctly done. You look at a paper where the results that they have leading to the conclusions that they made or the discussion that they had for their research study. And I got a lot of opportunity to do that in my PhD, which I didn't have as a clinician at that point well enough to give me confidence to do independent research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:49]: Now from there, you moved into academia and got into an opportunity to be able to teach other students and to be able to connect with other students where now you are leading the charge of working with PhD students at the University of Michigan, Flint. And kind of like the experience that you had with the master's program, there aren't a ton of PhD in physical therapy programs in the United States. Can you talk to me about the PT PhD? Let's talk about that specifically and why it was important for the University of Michigan Flint to create that program and to encourage clinicians, people with a terminal degree to continue on to get that PhD.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:15:36]: We first and there were others that were part of this, this first designing of a PhD program in physical therapy. And I just wanna help you understand and the audience to understand that you're right. This is a PhD in physical therapy that we offer at the University of Michigan Flint. It does prepare you to teach in doctor, you know, the DPT, doctor of physical therapy programs, and serve as a faculty for DP and DPT programs, as well as to do research, which I have the strong passion to try to help facilitate that experience for individuals that would like to seek a PhD. There are those that either right away, because we have a dual DPT PhD program that right away say, yes, I have aspirations to become a faculty member. And, you know, I had these career aspirations to be a faculty member and a researcher primary, you know, in physical therapy, or it could be a slightly broader. They might do their research and any of the healthcare health services. So, but mainly research that will help facilitate and answer questions for the PT profession.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:17:01]: So those individuals that really know right away that they want to teach and do research, it's a great avenue, even as, as you're going through the DPT program, you can apply and go through the dual program. Otherwise there is, you know, you can already have your degree in physical therapy and then apply for the PhD program. And then again, learn the skills to become an independent researcher. And also we have 6 credits in out of the 45 total credits that you need to take 45 45 to 55 credits that you need to take to get your PhD degree, we have we have the option for both of those avenues, either the dual program or once you have your degree, you can apply and and for the PhD program. When a student comes into a physical therapy program, in their in most of their minds, they're thinking clinic. They're thinking, I wanna help people to be able to regain motion,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:10]: to regain the the daily activity motion skills that they want after an injury or after an illness or after whatever it is in their life that has caused them to lose that mobility. So going into a program like this, many of them may not even have a notion that getting a PhD, 1, is an option or 2, is what they want to do, or many of them may not even know what does it take beyond getting a DPT to be able to do that. So as you talk to students and kind of open their eyes to the the concept of getting a PhD in physical therapy, specifically, what are the things that you try to impress most on those students that are they're gaining the clinical skills and they're gaining some research as a part of the DPT because it is a doctorate degree. But to impart on them what the next step really is, what are some of those things that you impart on them to be able to differentiate for them what they will be doing as a part of a clinical doctorate program versus the PhD program?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:19:21]: Well, let's first talk about the individuals that already have their physical therapy degree and they're practicing as clinicians. I know that was my journey. I loved being a clinician. I love doing that, but then eventually many individuals that are clinicians may say, okay, you know, I'm hungry when it comes to learning and learning. I'm hungry. I went to all the continuing education courses I could as a clinician. I read a lot. We had journal clubs as a clinician and, you know, a lot of times I did lead those, but others led them and we had very, very dynamic group.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:20:04]: But unfortunately in the clinic, sometimes you don't have time to devote to, there are productivity issues, which are expected of you, and then there's less time to do some educational exploration. So, so many, many clinicians might say, I need more, I need to feed the, the side of me that needs, that needs more education, that needs discussions. And, you know, you can do that with other avenues, but if you say, Oh, I feel I'm very confident as a, as a clinician, but now I want more, I want to do something else. And then they might take, you know, of course as a clinician, you might serve as a clinical instructor. And so you might be instructing on a clinical, in a clinical venue, individual PT students and helping them develop their clinical skills. And so you get some of your educational, you know, your teaching and education, they teach you half the time, some new information, the student, the, and the clinics teach you, and then you wanna explore it more. And then you say, I would like to spend more time and have a little more time to, explore the educational side of things. And that can be done definitely in a PhD program, but also many of us faculty, at least probably practice one day a week still in the clinic.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:21:46]: And then also, you know, so we are allowed, at least in my contract here, we're allowed at least one day away to act as a clinician and do that so we can keep up our clinical skills as well. So there is the best of both worlds. You can still teach without a PhD. You can teach with a DPT, but to be competitive in the hiring process for faculty, they will look at individuals who apply for the faculty positions with PhDs. Those applications will rise to the top of the stack because most PT educational programs need people to continue research. And they also need, people that will specialize in certain top, like I teach the neuro classes. I teach a lot of classes that have to do with neuroscience. I teach motor control and motor learning because of my background at Ann Arbor.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:22:49]: I also teach neurological conditions, but then I also chair a lot of the PhD students or facilitate their educational process. But I just love the different avenues. And and may I speak to that? I love physical therapy because you can almost, in quotes, change your position or change your employment within the field. So I can be a clinician. I could go and get special credentialing through the APDA in areas like neurological, areas or, you know, geriatrics or orthopedics or whatever I could get my specialization certification. So that would facilitate your ability to teach in certain areas. I feel like I've had multiple careers because I was a clinician only. Then I went part time and did part time teaching.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:23:47]: I then went back to clinician only for a while, but then after I got my PhD, I became a faculty member. So I feel like, and then researcher in there too. So that feels like an, another avenue, another career avenue. So some other programs you might go through a program, you might get education in that field, and then you wanna change because things just change for your career aspirations. And, but then you might have to go back and get more education to go into a different field. In PT, I feel like I've changed fields without going back. Well, I got my PhD, but without, having to explore a whole another career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:31]: Now going back to your own education, I know, I mean, you found success. You got the master's. You got that PhD. You continued on in your career. As any student transitions into different educational models, there are different ways of learning, there's different expectations, and you have to learn what those are to find success. Can you think back to your own transitions, your transition into your master's degree, your transition into your doctorate degree, what did you have to do as you transitioned into those educational models and at those institutions to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those graduate programs?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:25:17]: I can give you a few examples of that. Okay. We would have as PhD students and the master students could end up going to these. In Ann Arbor, they would have these seminars where guest speakers would come in and speak to us. Okay. When I went to my first one, I was like, whoosh, you know, what they were talking about. I maybe understood the first 10 minutes and I was like, okay, I'm lost. So I really had to like, think about where did my comprehension fail? But as I kept attending and as I kept learning, I was so pleased.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:25:57]: Okay. Now I can hang in for 30 minutes and I can like get all the details. And so it was progressive successes. And sometimes they're just so small, like, okay, today I held in there 30 minutes and I followed what was said, but then the details got beyond me. And then I could track my progress in the program because by the end of the 1st year, or maybe into the 2nd, middle of the 2nd year, I was following all the conversations and I could be confident in asking questions that weren't too stupid. So, or I'm, maybe I should say another word for that, but I felt comfortable to ask questions from a knowledge base. Now they still might not have been to the knowledge base of these excellent guest speakers, but I always accept that there's more to learn. And even as, for example, another thing that I could speak to is that many of our PhD students, we start to try to challenge them to present information and then be able to handle questions and answers and be able to ask questions of their fellow students in a very respectful, but trying to probe for more information.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:27:22]: And we'd like to give our students those experiences. So then if they get the opportunity to go out and speak at a state level conference or a national level conference, they will feel confident in many of our students, both the DPT students and the PhD students are invited to go to state conferences. Our APTA combined section is usually in January or February to go to that. There is fortunately the partial support for student travel and many of our students get to go to these conferences and they could either attend and get in from new information at the conference, or we encourage them to eventually present either a poster or a platform presentation, and we try to help them build those skills. So they're like, they can handle the other question and answer period. I don't know if I went on a tangent here, but it's just some really cool opportunities for growth. Did I answer your original question? Because I have a tendency to wander.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:29]: Now you have transitioned into your faculty role. You work with PhD PhD students, DPT students. You're working with students on a regular basis. As you think about the experience that you had in your own graduate education, and as you think about the interactions and the work that you do with graduate students, and you think about students just thinking about graduate school in general. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate school, whether it be for physical therapy or for other graduate programs that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:29:00]: I'm gonna really go basic here. I do believe that sometimes the studying strategies for undergraduate depends on the undergraduate program, how rigorous the program is, and what study strategies and test taking strategies that students develop over time. So we actually have a course in our 1st year, the 1st semester of our DPT program to help you at least explore your test taking strategies, your study strategies. And the biggest thing is organization sometimes. I find that some students don't use the calendar or use their calendar on their cell phone or their calendar on their computer, whatever. And then they don't have a strategy for getting assignments in on time. And so if, as an undergrad student, you can really attend to those basic skills. And so that you're not struggling with, and I think this has gotten, this is my personal opinion, but I think this has gotten a little bit more troublesome for students during the COVID and post COVID years where a lot of the courses were online.

Dr. Cathy Larson [00:30:17]: So, but just being, learning to be very proactive about how you organize yourself, testing and studying strategies, but also managing stress because the DPT program and the PhD program, they can be stressful and you need to learn to manage ways to divide your time appropriately, to study for each course, you need to develop all of those skills. And the more that you develop them as an undergraduate student, you can definitely carry them out as a graduate student.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:50]: Well, Cathy, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all that advice today, and I truly wish you all the best. Thanks, Chris. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:32]: If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Entering graduate school is a significant milestone in one’s educational journey. It entails a multitude of steps, decisions, and transitions. In this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, we gained valuable insights from Dr. Reza Amini, Director of the Health Care Management masters degree program at the University of Michigan-Flint as well a seasoned academic and health professional. Dr. Amini’s journey from Iran to the United States highlights the complexities, challenges, and rewards of pursuing advanced degrees. Here, we further explore the key takeaways from his experiences and advice for current and prospective graduate students.

From High School to Medical Degree: A Challenge of Adaptation Dr. Amini began his educational journey in Iran, where the system significantly differs from that in the United States. Students can transition directly from high school to medical school, contingent on their national exam scores. Reflecting on his own experience, he described the initial struggle at medical school due to the heightened expectations and rigorous study demands compared to high school.

"It took me some time to adjust myself... I was not performing very well in the 1st, year, maybe the first three semesters," Dr. Amini shared, emphasizing the importance of connecting with supportive mentors and peers to navigate these early challenges. His story underlines the critical role of resilience, hard work, and the willingness to seek help in overcoming initial hurdles.

Following a Passion: The Move to Public Health After practicing medicine for several years, Dr. Amini chose to pursue a master's degree in public health, driven by a desire to affect larger populations. His commitment to improving the lives of those with physical and mental disabilities, particularly veterans of the Iran-Iraq war, fueled this decision.

"I was passionate to help people, and I was doing it in clinical practice... but it was not enough for me. I wanted to help more people and to spend more time impacting more people's lives," he explained. For him, research became a powerful tool to influence health policies and create substantive changes. His experience underscores the importance of aligning one's career with personal passions and motivations.

Crossing Continents: A PhD Journey in the United States The decision to attain a PhD in sociology from the University of North Texas marked another transformative phase in Dr. Amini's career. Moving to a new country posed its own set of challenges, including adjusting to a different educational system and overcoming language and cultural barriers. Despite these obstacles, Dr. Amini remained focused on his larger goal: enhancing his research capabilities to make a global impact.

He highlighted the value of international exposure to new academic environments and resources, which expanded his research scope and professional network.

Balancing Academic and Personal Life Dr. Amini's story is also a testament to the balancing act required of graduate students, particularly those with families. Balancing academic commitments with personal responsibilities is a recurring theme among graduate students, as noted by Dr. Amini, who juggled full-time work, study, and family life.

"Spending time at work, finding a specific time to study, it was very challenging working full time, spending enough time with my family, and at the same time doing my study," he remarked. His advice to maintain a support network and manage time effectively is crucial for anyone navigating similar challenges.

Words of Wisdom for Aspiring Graduates Drawing from both his own experiences and his role as a mentor, Dr. Amini offers essential advice to students contemplating graduate education:

1. Follow Your Passion

: Choose a field that you are passionate about to ensure personal satisfaction and fulfillment. 2. Be Resilient

: Graduate school is demanding, and resilience is key to pushing through tough times. 3. Seek Support

: Never hesitate to ask for help from mentors, peers, or family members. A strong support system can make a significant difference.

Dr. Reza Amini’s journey is a powerful testament to the determination, adaptability, and passion needed to succeed in graduate school. His experiences provide invaluable lessons for anyone on the path to advanced education, reminding us all that with the right mindset and support, achieving academic and professional goals is within reach.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being on this journey with you, and I call it a journey. I know I say this every week, but it is so true. You are on a journey, whether you're at the very beginning and just starting to think about, do I want to continue my education? And what kind of education might I want to get additional to my bachelor's degree? Or maybe you've applied and you're waiting on that answer, or you got the answer and and you got accepted and you're ready to go. Or maybe you're in the program and you're looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. And no matter where you are in that continuum, in that journey, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: And there are things that you can do. There are people that you can learn from that can give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to find success sooner. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success in graduate school. No matter what type of graduate school you want to go through, we're gonna be giving you tools that will help you along the way. And that's why every week, I bring you different guests with different experiences that can talk to you about the journey that they have gone on. Today, I got another great guest. Doctor Reza Amini is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:35]: And Dr. Amini has been a faculty member at the University of Michigan Flint for a number of years, and he leads our health care management program as well as our health services administration master's degrees. And we're gonna be talking to him about his experience, not only as a student himself, but as a faculty member to give you some perspective on what he's learned along the way. Reza, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:02:02]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:03]: I'm really excited to have you. And one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is having an opportunity to be able to turn the clock back in time. And you've gotten a number of different graduate degrees. So you went from getting that medical doctorate degree from Shiraz University of Medical Sciences, and then from there, you got a master's degree in public health from the University of Social Welfare and Rehabilitation Sciences in Tehran. And then even beyond that, you got a PhD in sociology from the University of North Texas. So I wanna go back in time. I wanna go back to those years when you were a student thinking for yourself. What made you decide that you wanted to continue and go and get that initial graduate degree?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:02:51]: Thank you so much for giving this opportunity to me to share my experience. In Iran, the education system is a little bit different from here in the United States. Students in high school, they can go straight to medical school, but they need to sit on exam, which is a national exam and get a national rank first. And based on their national rank, they can pick the programs that they they're eligible to go to. So in my experience, I was involved in many activities that I was exposed to medical, science and medical practice. When I was in middle school, many of my family members, my relatives, they were medical doctors. And, traditionally, my family, they were somehow involved in medical practice in traditional medicine in Iran. So, yeah, I had some incentives and some motivations for my family members, and I studied hard in the last two years of my high school to get a good rank.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:04:06]: But in the first attempt, I was not very good. So my rank was about 9,000 in in the nation. But I studied 1 I spent one more year to study after graduating from high school, and my the second attempt, my rank was about 950 in the nation. So, something at that time about 2,000 people could go to medical school straight from high school, and I was eligible to do that based on my rank. So I started medical school. It takes 7 years to complete med school. It's a combination combined undergraduate and graduate section that usually student do in the United States. So that was challenging, especially in the first few years because you're in medical school, the expectation is much different from high school.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:05:10]: Right? So you go straight to a program that requires more intensive studies. It took me some time to adjust myself. I was not performing very well in the 1st, year, maybe the first three semesters, but I had good connections with my faculty members and my, I found some great mentors in my peers, and they helped me to adjust myself with the new environment and new expectations. And it helped me to go through the 7 years of education. And after that, I graduated, from medical school, and I started doing medical practice as a general physician, which is very similar to family physician role in the US.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: Many times individuals at that point would say, I'm good. I don't need to continue my education. I have a career. I've got a career that pays a good salary, that I can stay in for my entire life. Now you decided to continue on after a number of years of practice and getting a master's degree in public health still in your country. So talk to me about what was the impetus for you to decide that you wanted to continue and get that master's degree after you had been working for those number of years?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:06:41]: That's a great question and somehow complex. So I try to make summarize it and at the same time explain the the incentives and motivation behind the pursuing an Miles per hour after my MD. So one of the things that almost all of the physicians and those who are working in health services and health care system, they have the passion to help other people. And it was the same for me. I was passionate to help people, and I was doing it in clinical practice in my office and also in some other clinics that I shared, my practice with some of my colleagues. We established, the 1st private clinic, working on addiction treatment in Iran, and it was very rewarding to have those kind of create some environment to help other people in those clinics, but it was not enough for me. I wanted to help more people and to spend more time and impacting more people's lives with with my time. So although the job as as medical doctors, nurses, other practitioners doing, they are great and they are very valuable, but I wanted to do more and impact more people's lives.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:08:11]: So I got involved in research in public health. So I was doing research and collaborating with, some researcher in a medical research center in Iran. The focus was on helping people with physical and mental disabilities to have a better life. And your audience may not know that Iran and Iraq were in war for 8 years. It was the bloodiest war in the 20th century. Half a 1000000 wounded and injured on each side, and we had a huge number of people with physical disabilities, and they were overlooked in health care system, in policy making, and in many aspects of health care. So I got involved because I saw the need for involving myself and sharing my experience and knowledge. But when you're in research, you know that there are so many things that you don't know.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:09:15]: You learn that, and it gives you more incentive to do more research, to do more studies, and expand your knowledge. So because of that, I learned during that time that there are so many things that I don't know, and I need to know that in order to do my research and achieve my goals, which was helping people and creating the opportunity for policy makers to create and develop policies that can help these people. But if you create not accurate information for policy makers, their direction and decision making can have negative impacts on people's lives. And we see that in the in everywhere in the US right now and any aspects of our lives. Right? So wrong policies can have more negative impacts on people. So I wanted to know learn more about aging and public health in order to do my research and create more knowledge for policy makers that are more accurate and, the the highest level of accuracy of the knowledge that we were creating. So that was the the main incentive that I went to another graduate school to do my Miles per hour, and my Miles per hour was focused on gerontology, which is about older adults and helping them to have a better quality of life. Right? Understanding what drives the health status and health issues, chronic health diseases in older adults.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:11:09]: And the the the reason I chose gerontology was that during my research, I I learned that people with physical disability, they were experiencing accelerated aging. So, for example, we have 65 years old as the aging margin in our population in the United States. Right? So people over age of 65, they are considered older adults. That's it. Age is just a number, but at the population level, you need to have a a certain margin to categorize people, right, in order to create more policies and more services for them. But in that population with physical limitations and disabilities, they were experiencing older adults' health disorders in much younger ages, like 45 or 50 years old, so they were experiencing aging much sooner than they were expected to. So that was one of the findings of my research. So I I started to study more about aging and older adults, and that was one of the reason I enrolled in that program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:30]: Well, I appreciate you sharing that. Now you finished that program and then continued on and got a final degree, a PhD, this time in the United States at the University of North Texas. Now you already had a terminal degree. Now it's not a terminal degree in the United States, but it was a terminal degree plus another master's degree. And then you decided to take that research to the next level to be able to get that research degree from the United States. Talk to me about that. Not only moving to a a brand new continent, a new country, but deciding to move from practical work experience in the community, in a clinical setting, into a research based degree and on an academic track and why you chose a PhD?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:13:19]: As you see that, at that point, I was in a transition when I said I was involved in research. I was transitioning from clinical practice to more research, and I was the director of the research section of that medical research center I just mentioned for 10 years. So and, I was doing more research. I learned that there are, again, some areas that I lacked the knowledge, and I cannot take that knowledge in the situation that I was. And those people around me, they were great people. They had wonderful experience, a great amount of knowledge, but at that point, I couldn't grow my knowledge more in that situation. So I started searching and learning more about the programs research programs in other continents in Europe and in the United States, and I was exposed to many of the scholars from many countries when I was attending conferences overseas, like in Turkey, that we call it Turkey now. So they changed the name of the country.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:14:38]: So I was exposed to those scholars. We had some connections and communication after conferences, which is we was, you know, a new phase in my life because that exposure to other scholars in conferences, it expanded my vision and expanded my view into research and also the future of the research studies I wanted to do. So I got involved in those connections with other scholars, and after a while, I learned that I thought that it's time to improve again my research skills and, also get involved in some focus more on research because I was enjoying it. The results of my research, I could see that can impact so many peoples, and it was very different from clinical practice. As I said, it's very valuable to see patients 1 on 1, but with just a research project after 1 year, I could impact thousands of people's lives, and I give you an example. I was working on health needs of people with lack of visual equity and blind people who were injured in Iran Iraq war. They had no voices in the health policy and health care system and in the health care system. They were overlooked for more than 10 years, and they received no health insurance.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:16:21]: They had no health coverages, but the result of my research and my my teams also, it was a team effort, Help them to be visible to policy makers. And after my research, they received comprehensive health insurance coverage for their health needs, not only themselves, but also for their family members. And it passed in the congress after my research was published. And, they started the the people, the injured people, they started to create their own society, and they started to lobby with the policy makers after that. So it was so rewarding to see how my research was helping people. So that was the the another way that I was looking as the result of my work. So because of that, that's just one example. I started thinking, I can go beyond the boundaries of Iran.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:17:29]: I can do something that I can help people around the world, but there were limitations and barriers to that. And coming to the United States, having a degree, not just a degree, but getting exposure to scholars and researchers in the United States with the so many resources that are available here that are were not there in my home country in Iran could give me the opportunity to achieve that goal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:01]: Now every person that goes into graduate education goes through transitions. You mentioned that in your country, you go right you went from high school into a doctorate degree, a medical degree. You worked for a while and then made a transition back into education to get that master's degree, and then transitioned to a new country, a new type of educational system into a different educational model, a different education degree. Talk to me about the transitions that you went through. What did you have to do as you transitioned into these programs to be able to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of each of those programs?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:18:49]: There are different ways to explain that. From high school and to medical school, I I I think I touched that a little bit. It was it was very challenging situation because, as I said, coming from high school straight to a doctorate program and the the amount of work expectations, the study time, and everything was totally different, and it was very difficult. And as I said, having some supports, like mentors, advisors, and, great professors I had. They helped me to adjust myself. But hard work is the key, and so being passionate about your goal and not giving up and be resilient. So that was the key elements of my success. But in the second time, I was practicing, and I was out of school for more than 12 years.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:19:51]: And after 12 years, I went to back to education, and the whole education system was different at after 10 years. Right? So it it was again a challenge having a balance between always married at the time. I had the kid. My son was a toddler at the time. Spending time at work, finding a specific time to study, it was very challenging working full time, spending enough time with my family, and at the same time doing my study was very, very challenging. So I had to reduce my hobby times or spending my weekends more on studying for my degree and also, again, relying on some of the resources that I had and also some other supports from amazing faculty members who were great mentors during that time. That helped me. After the time difference between my master's and my PhD was about 2 years, it was not a long time.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:20:58]: But coming from another country to the United States, the first thing that was very difficult for me to adjust was the culture shock. So I haven't the experience of living overseas, language barrier, culture barriers, and also the education system here is is totally different from Iran. So their relationship between the faculty and the students, the students student relationships, and student staff relationships. They were so so much different, and it was somehow challenging to adjust myself. But, again, being open to changing myself a little bit, at the same time keeping my values untouched. So I try to keep my values, but at the same time be open to change my vision, to change some of my cultural values, and adjusting myself with the new environment. It took me about 1 year to learn more about American culture, but I was fortunate to have my family next to me. My wife and my son, they supported me a lot.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:22:19]: And coming back home and having that kind of support was crucial for me to survive these challenging situations. So and there are so many things that we can talk, but I don't think the time will allow. But I would be happy to share more of my experience in those situations with your audience. If they are interested to learn more, they can contact me directly if they need some kind of advice or any suggestions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:52]: So I'm kind of interested now because, you know, you have a a degree as a doctor, as a public health specialist, as a doctorate of sociology as a doctorate of sociology. And now you are a faculty member. You're working in health care management, health services administration, working with students in that regard, teaching within those programs. Talk to me about now that you've completed those other degrees and you've moved into this academic portion of your life, your career, how did those past degrees prepare you for the work that you're doing now as a faculty member?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:23:31]: Being in, medical practice and at the same time, as I said briefly, that we established the first clinic in Iran that the first private clinic in Iran treating people with addiction problems, drug addiction, alcohol addiction, and some others. I was involved in health care administration. So I was part of the team running the clinic. It was it had, 2 branches and one day care center and one just clinic that visiting patients. So that part helped me to use my daily experience with the health care administration in my current role, helping my student to learn from my experience in the field running a health care entity. So from different perspective, from, patient care, financial management, supply chain management because we're I was responsible for all of those tasks and activities and aspects. Although I didn't have the formal education about that, but I was studying how to run those those clinics. And I learned more in the in the field, so I was doing it.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:24:56]: And when I was in my PhD program, I had some courses about the these tasks and activities. Although my degree is in sociology, the focus was in health services. So in that regard, I'm sharing my experience, my personal experience, along with my study and knowledge and the result of my research in in the classroom with the students. And, there is a link between my practice as as you noticed with my research. So the access to health care services is part of my research right now. It has been part of my research for for many, many years, how people can give access to the need the health services that they need, how the health insurance can facilitate those accessibility and financial barriers, the so so many other barriers, like cultural barriers. And I use that again in my my classroom to teach students how they can evaluate accessibility to health care services when they are practicing as a health care professional, as a health care administrator, or as a public health professional, in the field. So a combination of my professional experience, my research, and also my graduate degree studies, you know, courses into my courses that I'm teaching.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:34]: Now I know that you've had a lot of opportunities to be able to not only have your own experiences in going through graduate school and everything that you learned along the way through those experiences, but you also have worked with a number of graduate students over the years, not only here at the University of Michigan Flint, but also at other institutions in helping them to find success in their graduate school journey. As you think back to your own experiences, to the experiences you've had mentoring other students, and you think of students that are going to graduate school, whether it be in the health care arena or some other area, what are some pieces of advice that you'd want to give to every student considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Reza Amini [00:27:21]: So follow your passion. Whatever is your passion, follow it and try to find the way that you can link your passion to your graduated studies. If you are doing something that you're you do not love it, you will not be happy. You will not be happy with your life, with your studies. So it's better to find something that you're passionate about and be resilient. So there are so many, many, graduate studies, graduate programs that you can link it to your passion. And when you find it, you need to be resilient. You need to work hard to achieve your goals and never give up.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:28:09]: There are so many situations that we I was thinking, I I cannot go further. I cannot continue this situation. But giving up in the middle of the studies, in the middle of what you are passionate to do, it is not the best thing to think about. It's okay if we get a break for some time, but it's important to go back to what I was doing and connect it, create a bridge between the what I was doing and what I wanted to achieve. So as I said, be consistent. The other thing is do not hesitate to reach for help. So we cannot survive alone. We need support from other people.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:28:57]: It doesn't matter how strong we are or how talented we are. We cannot do anything alone, so we need to communicate with others. I have had, as I said, so many great supports and mentors, peers that they helped me along the way, and I cannot thank them enough. So it's the same for everyone. When you need help, do not hesitate to ask for help from your family members, from your peers, from your faculty members, your advisers. In your, tier of influence, we are available to our students all the time, and sometimes I'm replying to emails during the weekend at night because I think that the student, on the other side, he or she needs help right away. She needs an an he needs an answer right now, and tomorrow might be late to get the answer. Because of my experience, I put myself in their shoes, and I try to support them as much as possible.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:30:09]: So you have the support here because we share the same experience that you are in. We have had the same experience as you are exposed to right now. So we support our students always no matter what. So do not hesitate to ask for help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:30]: Well, Reza, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today through all of the different phases and steps that you went through and for sharing some of the things that were challenging as well as the things that went well along the way. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Reza Amini [00:30:49]: Thank you so much for having me. It was my pleasure and honor to be with you and your audience here. I hope my experience helps some people to achieve their goals. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:01]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

View Details

Graduate school is a significant commitment and a transformative journey, and no one knows this better than Dr. Doug Zytko, an associate professor and Director of the Computing PhD as well as the Computer and Information Systems and Human Centered Design Masters degrees at the University of Michigan Flint. In this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, Dr. Zytko shared his experiences and insights, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently undertaking graduate studies. Below, we'll explore some key takeaways from Dr. Zytko's journey and his recommendations for finding success in graduate school.

The Inception: Sparking the Decision to Pursue a PhD Dr. Zytko’s path to graduate school wasn’t perfectly planned. While completing his bachelor’s degree at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, he found himself drawn to the role of professors—a profession held by both his parents. “To be a professor, I need to have a PhD,” he realized, leading him to apply for several PhD programs. Surprisingly, he faced multiple rejections, except from his alma mater, where his passion and notable GPA (3.96) caught the attention of faculty members.

Early Challenges and Realizations Entering his PhD program, Dr. Zytko initially misunderstood the nature of doctoral studies. He believed his journey would be structured similarly to undergraduate education, relying heavily on others to guide his path. However, PhD programs demand a high degree of self-direction and the creation of new knowledge. “I didn’t understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda,” he reflected. Only two years in did he fully grasp the intensive, self-driven nature of the program, leading to a prolonged seven-year completion time.

Preparing for Graduate School: Tips for Prospective Students 1. Engage in Undergraduate Research: Dr. Zytko emphasized the importance of involving oneself in research during undergraduate studies. Not just for bolstering a CV, but for gaining a fundamental understanding of research processes. 2. Clear Career Goals: Ensure you have a defined reason for pursuing graduate studies. Avoid treating grad school as a pause button or a vague stepping stone; know why you are there and let all decisions follow from that purpose. 3. Consider the Master’s Path: If undergraduate research isn't part of your background, pursuing a master's degree before a PhD might be a more structured approach. This can provide essential research experience and a more tailored understanding of your field.

Finding Success During Graduate Studies 1. Be Comfortable with Discomfort: Graduate studies, particularly PhD programs, require a new level of time management and self-motivation. Don’t wait for others to dictate your schedule or goals. 2. No Plan B: Dr. Zytko shared that having no alternative career path kept him focused during challenging times. This level of dedication can be crucial for success.

Drawing from Experience: Reflecting on Dr. Zytko's Advice Dr. Zytko's journey underscores the need for strategic preparation and genuine passion. From learning research fundamentals early on to maintaining focused drive despite challenges, his advice is rooted in real experience. For anyone considering graduate school, Dr. Zytko's insights are invaluable.

Whether you are contemplating a master's or diving straight into a PhD, understanding the journey ahead can make a substantial difference. Taking the time to gain research experience, having a clear career path, and staying committed to your goals are essential steps towards success in graduate school. And remember, it's not just about getting the degree; it's about growing intellectually and professionally to meet your greatest potential.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, each week, we are on a journey together. And I call it a journey because it really is that. You thinking about graduate school, being in graduate school, wherever you are in this process of getting further education, and you will go through a journey because the experience is going to be different for every person. And what's important though, is that there are things that you can do to be able to find success throughout every stage of this process. It's not always going to be easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: There's going to be some bumps in the road, most likely. But saying that, there are ways in which you can get some tools for your own toolbox, and be able to prepare yourself as well as you can to be able to enter grad school strong, to go through grad school strong, and be able to come out on the end of the process ready to go for the next phase of your life. So every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can talk about what they went through in going to graduate school themselves, and the experience that they've had since then that can help you on the journey that you're on as well. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Doug Zitko is with us, and Doug is an associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint, but he's also the director of graduate programs for the College of Innovation and Technology, as well as working specifically with our computer science program and our human centered design master's degree program. So Doug has a lot of different experiences that have brought him to the place that he is today, and I'm really excited to have him here today. Doug, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:11]: Of course. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: So one of the first things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the New Jersey Institute of Technology. And as you were going through and getting that bachelor's degree in information technology, at some point, at some point, you got that spark. You got that push. And you decided for yourself to go from the bachelor's degree and stepping further into getting a PhD in human computer interaction. Not every student's gonna do that. So I wanna go back to that moment, that moment that you figured out for yourself. I wanna go to that next step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:53]: What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:02:56]: Well, it wasn't a terribly thought out process. I was starting my senior year with my bachelor's degree, and I was thinking about what am I gonna do when this year is over. And no one is telling me, you need to register for these courses and do this and be at this room at that time. And I really didn't have an answer. What I concluded was that I wasn't terribly passionate about the career choices that I was learning about in my major, which was information technology. The thing that excited me the most, which I didn't expect, was the role of professor itself. You know, learning from professors in my classes who were very passionate about the material and clearly seemed to really enjoy the job, others that didn't seem to enjoy that much. And I thought, I think I might enjoy that because my family is teachers.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:03:49]: My dad was a teacher and a department chair, and my mom was a teacher as well. And I thought, well, maybe I can do this at the college level. And all I knew at that point was, okay. To be a professor, I need to have a PhD. And I started submitting applications with that being the extent of my understanding. And so not surprisingly, I got rejected by every school I applied to, except for one, which was New Jersey Institute of Technology, where I was also doing my bachelor's. Because one thing I was able to do there that I was not able to do as easily with other schools is I could just pick the brains of my professors. And so I just started to talk to them 1 by 1, voicing my interest in getting a PhD.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:04:34]: I got very different reactions to that from faculty. Some that were telling me to do anything but that, others that were very enthusiastic, some that were giving me highly detailed advice. But I talked to enough people that those in decision making roles came to learn that I was interested in a PhD. My GPA was really good at a 3.96 GPA as an undergrad. And I was fortunate enough to have a professor buy in quite literally to bringing me on directly from bachelor's into the PhD program and administrative personnel being on board with that as well. Chris, I'm sure you know, but maybe your listeners don't. You know, one of the biggest differences between PhD programs and and master's programs is PhDs are almost always fully funded positions. I've now come to learn it's quite rare for a bachelor student to go directly into PhD with that full funding commitment without ever having done research.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:05:30]: I didn't even know what the word research meant. And things like the difference between qualitative and quantitative research, I've never even heard those terms. And so I was being admitted into into a PhD program really, just on genuine passion for a very clearly articulated career goal. I wanted to be a professor, whatever that meant, and strength of GPA. So then I start my PhD. And I'll skip ahead to the end first so everything else makes sense. It took me 7 years to finish my PhD, which is quite a bit longer. I think the national average is between 4 5 years.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:00]: Yeah. So those 2 extra years came really at the start, not at the end. Because those first two years were mostly just me running around with my head on fire, trying to figure out not just how to succeed at a PhD, but learning what a PhD actually is. Like, when I was saying I didn't even know what the word research meant, I didn't understand that a PhD student has to formulate their own research agenda and conduct and complete that for a dissertation. I knew these words, dissertation. I knew these words, research, but I didn't know what they meant. And so just to give an example, when I was admitted into the program, they said, we're gonna guarantee your funding for 4 years, which I interpreted as, oh, great. A PhD is only gonna take 4 years, because I was operating with that certainty and structure of a bachelor's program and a master's program where I just take these classes.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:06:48]: And then once I finish those, I'm imagining gonna have a PhD, meaning I assumed other people took responsibility for the structuring and ensuring that I was hitting certain milestones at a certain time. And I remember in my 1st year as a PhD student, it was amazing because I knew just enough to learn that I was learning a lot, but I didn't know yet all of the things I should have been doing in my 1st year into my 2nd year to make sure I finished by year 5. And so the end of year year 1, I remember thinking to myself, I've learned more in this 1 year than I have in 4 years as a bachelor student, and I and I still believe that to be true today. I was learning so much because I finally knew exactly why I was there. I mean, Chris, you know, like, PhD students, they still have to take some classes, and those are mostly front loaded in the 1st couple years. And so I was still in that mindset of taking classes. But the difference between me at the PhD level and undergraduate level was I wanna be a professor. Whereas when I was an an undergraduate, it was I'm taking these classes because I'm vaguely interested in computers, and people tell me I'm good with computers, but I still really didn't know what career I was working towards and how each class fit into that.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:05]: So when I was taking my introductory classes in the PhD program, it was, oh, very clearly, I understand what I'm taking from this and what I'm taking from that. I finally started to see classes as these really valuable knowledge bases. And so I came out of that year. I I really felt like I doubled my intellect between bachelor's and that one year in the in the PhD program. And then I start my 2nd year. And then as I go into my 3rd year, it starts to dawn on me the obligations that are on me. Not on anybody else, but on me to articulate our research agenda, and I didn't know where to begin. I could read papers.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:08:42]: I could summarize papers. I could review papers. But in terms of articulating a research agenda, help somebody help me because I'm so used to professors in classes. You know, they assign to you projects. They give you exams. The student reacts. This is the task. I will complete it.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:09:00]: But then in the PhD program, it's, no. You need to articulate that. You need to put together the, quote, unquote, exam. And it took me a while to figure out the biggest difference between PhD and masters and undergraduate is with those first two degrees, the undergraduate and the masters, you are mastering existing knowledge. You are demonstrating, I understand the knowledge has already been created. But when you do a PhD, the sign of a completed PhD is you have created new knowledge. And that's a completely different skill set that took me probably at least 2 years just to figure out how to do it and then came the execution, which is why it took me 7 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:41]: So as you look back at that, because you did things, like you said, in a way that was probably a little bit longer than others, and it sounds like there was some maybe some lacking mentorship that might have been there that could have helped you along the way. But as you look back and you look at what you learned in those first two years as you were going into that 3rd year and realizing, oh, I'm behind, what would you have done differently in that 1st year in a PhD program as you were transitioning in and through to move you to the 2nd year and get you on that path toward the end goal instead of being 3 years in and still being a little bit lost.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:10:28]: Yeah. I think there's things I should've done when I was still an undergraduate when preparing to apply to PhD programs, and then I can talk also about things I should've done in the 1st year of my PhD. Because looking back, those first two years of my PhD really should have been my master's years. And instead, they were in in the PhD years. And some of your listeners might go, oh, no. I got the better end of the deal because PhD is fully funded. So I basically got a master's fully funded. I don't have a master's, but that was just you could argue that's essentially what I was doing.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:01]: But I would say, no. That's not the smart play. Because as soon as you enter a PhD program officially, you're on this clock where you have to have certain milestones then at a certain time. And so I was basically being an informal master's student while also PhD, but on a PhD student clock, which caused a lot of anxiety later on where I am now a year plus behind on certain milestones with my dissertation proposal and, of course, dissertation defense. And so I would not recommend that. What I should have been doing in my senior year as an undergraduate student or maybe even earlier, because I now see this even in my own research lab now, is getting involved with research as an undergraduate student. And because I didn't realize that was a thing that professors really encouraged. And looking back in in my 6 plus years as a professor now, my absolute best student researchers were undergraduate students, and bar none.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:11:56]: It's not even close. And I should have been doing that, not just to start to build up a CV of a publication record, but just to get an understanding of what does it mean to do research, and what are the the expectations? What's the skills that I have to develop? Because that would have armed me with much better knowledge of how to craft materials for applying to different schools, but also in choosing which schools to apply to. And it would have enabled me to go into a PhD program already understanding the area I wanted to do a PhD. And maybe not the exact dissertation plan was set up, but an understanding of, I'm gonna be an expert in this subfield or this subarea so that immediately I can start mastering the literature of that particular area. Because what I spent the first two years on my PhD was just understanding what part of human computer interaction do I even wanna do research in, and then what does that research even look like?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:53]: All good points. And, you know, one of the things that I learned when I was going through my own doctorate was that the more that you can use the classes that you are taking to inform the research that you're going to be doing. And if your program allows it, to allow for you to be able to start to do some of the lit review, some of the writing, some of the chapter writing as you're going through other courses that may relate to the topic at hand, definitely can save you time. But I say, if your program allows it, because not every program will allow you to do that. So it's always important to know and to understand what the rules are for the program that you're in. One of the things that I I think that I would ask you now, as you look back, and you've kinda talked about the fact that you would have done research ahead of time. You now are the director of a PhD program in computing, and you are getting applications from individuals that are applying to the program. You get some that are that potentially do have a bachelor's degree but no master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: You have others that have master's degree or master's degree plus experiences. In your opinion right now, if a student is getting a bachelor's degree, is it to their benefit to look to a PhD right away if that's where they see themselves in the future? Or is it better for them to do the route of the masters, getting getting more experience, and then going to the PhD?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:14:27]: Yeah. That's a that's a complicated question, and I think the answer has evolved over time. Sort of from what I've seen, not just in my own role, but from speaking to those in similar roles at other universities, is the standard of quality for an admitted PhD student has gone up dramatically. And with that, also expectations for quality of a of a completed PhD. I I've talked to some that are very esteemed senior members of the field, and they'll tell us what they completed for their dissertation wouldn't even be a third of what's expected of a PhD now. So the expectations are continually rising, not just for completing the PhD, but for admission into a program. To be honest, someone that has a bachelor's and is considering a PhD, I would probably not advise doing that unless the student already has a publication record, meaning some kind of evidence to a PhD program that I can do research successfully. Because something that I tell our prospective applicants is, you know, when you hear a PhD program is is fully funded, they see that as sometimes free money.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:15:45]: But what it really means is there is an obligation of the student to deliver on that investment. Because that's what it is. It's an investment. And so when you hear a program is fully funded like ours, what it often means is faculty are committing finite resources that they've worked very hard for through writing external grants and whatnot, And they're investing those resources into a relatively unknown student with their fingers crossed that that student's gonna deliver on high quality publications that allows that faculty member to apply for more grants and to get tenure and all these other things. And so a student at the bachelor's level, that immediately looks like risk. Because compared to a master's student, there's just less of a timeline for that student to have performed research to demonstrate I can conduct research at the highest level. And so the advice that I would give to the typical bachelor students let's say a a bachelor student who knows enough to say, I wanna get a PhD in human computer interaction, for example. But they're not able to articulate specific research questions that they wanna dedicate yours to studying or they might not even be aware of what the top publication venues are in their field.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:16:59]: I would recommend pursuing a master's, but looking into funding options at the master's level. So, for example, like, here at Flint, and I did this at my previous institution, sometimes it will identify high performing undergraduates. They've indicated somewhat of an interest in doing research, but they don't know much about what that is. And there is often some funding lines, not nearly as extensive as PhDs, but some schools have funding opportunities, whether it's, RA positions, whether it's smaller scholarships to at least partially fund a master's degree for a high performing undergraduate student. Or, for example, if your school like ours offers a BSMS program So you can start taking master's programs at the bachelor's level, and then that way you get on the radar of some faculty members. Because from a I tell you from a faculty member's perspective, one of the biggest challenges we have is picking the right students. And so if we're able to observe a student in class or maybe they've been informally coming to our research meetings and exhibiting interest, and they've done some small roles maybe in an unpaid capacity because they just wanna not so much contribute to research, but just to understand what a professor's working on. Right? Like, I've had students that, I've read some of your papers, or can you give me some some recommendations of papers I could read? I'm more likely to commit to a student than, let's say, at the bachelor's level because I relative to an unknown student with a master's because I was able to observe them for a much longer period of time, and I'm more confident about their capabilities at the PhD level.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:41]: Those are great points, and I think definitely things that people can think about, whether it's for a PhD in computing to a PhD in some other area. What you just heard from Doug is really important, is that if you're currently in your undergraduate experience, you should be working on undergraduate research at the same time and finding ways to be able to do that research. And if you haven't done that yet, going into a PhD may be very challenging. And getting into a PhD program may be a similar experience as what Doug experienced in getting those rejection letters, which are not always fun to get. Because I know that I've seen some rejection letters in my past, and it's never fun to get those. But especially if there's other ways for you to be able to still get to that final goal, that final point where you want to be, but in a roundabout way, that may be the better way to go. So that being said, listen to what you you just heard there, and really think hard about the decision that you're making. Because it's not all about funding, it's also about what's best for you and being successful in the experience that you're gonna be going through.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:49]: Now talking about success, as you look at the experience that you went through, and you talked about some of the things that you learned in that 1st year, and 2nd year, and the 3rd year. But each of us, as we go from one degree to the next, we end up going through transitions. You went through your transitions in going from undergrad into your graduate school program. I went through my own. As you look at the transitions that you went through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout that PhD experience for yourself?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:20:23]: Really good question. I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. But just thinking through, like, when I started a PhD to when I ended, some of the intangibles that really helped me get there, I think there were 2 big ones that come to mind that I didn't necessarily possess when I was leaving my bachelor's. One was being comfortable with discomfort. So when I ended my bachelor's degree, I think like most bachelor student, we became very accustomed to structure, particularly structure that's imposed by others. Like, I was saying before with, like, you have to go to this classroom at this time. These are the exams. This is homework.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:21:01]: This is when the homework is due. And we we become so trained to allow someone else to dictate our pace of work, what quality looks like, that when I started in the PhD program, especially in my 1st semester, I'd wake up. I look at my calendar. Oh, I only have one class today, so I only have to work for that 2 hours today. I didn't understand all the rest of that time in the days for me to figure out how to utilize, because I was still in that mindset of other people will tell me how to use my time, which is not the case. And so that was one of the hardest lessons for me to learn, and it kinda manifested later in my PhD of me working 7 days a week for at least a few years in a row because I I needed to do that catch up. It wasn't overworking. It was me delaying the work that I should have been doing in those days in my 1st couple years into into later.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:21:53]: So that was the the first big skill lesson was some people use the term time management for that. I think that term gets misunderstood. I think it's that self directed nature of I'm not waiting for someone else to tell me what to do. And if no one tells me what to do, it doesn't mean I have nothing to do. So that was a hard lesson to learn. The other lesson was having no plan b, which sounds really risky. But, Chris, you probably know the the national averages on this better than I do. But the last that I've read, the nationally speaking, there's a 40 to 60% attrition rate in PhD programs.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:22:29]: And in my own program, in my cohort for the year that I went to the program, we had a 50% attrition rate. And I probably would have been on the other side of it if I had some other potential career option that I would have been okay with. Because in those 7 years, there's more time than not where I had family members asking me, why are you doing this? You're working all the time. Is this and you're getting paid what? Because, Chris, you know, but maybe your listeners don't. When when we hear that PhD programs are fully funded, you're not necessarily getting a a funding that's commensurate to a job you would have gotten in industry. You you're getting paid a not glamorous amount of money to pay the essentials while you're doing your PhD. And there is multiple times, family members, close friends going, this is crazy. Why don't you just go get a normal job that pays you? I'll be honest.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:23:32]: My stipend at the time was $20,000 a year. This is in the New Jersey, New York area, and so that doesn't go very far. And when you do that for 7 years, you start to get the questions more and more each year. Is this worth it? And in my mind, there was no plan b. I had to become a professor. And so in those really, really hard times when I saw students, not necessarily just failing out of the program, but voluntarily leaving, I pushed through because in my head and my heart, I was just convicted to this is what I will do. And there was days where that was the only thing that was getting me into the next day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:10]: Now I know you work with a lot of grad students now. And as you think back to your own experience, as you think back to the experiences you've had at the institutions that you've worked with in your career, leading you to where you're at today here at the University of Michigan, Flint, what are some pieces of advice that you would offer to every graduate student, no matter if they were going into a technological graduate degree, a PhD, a master's degree? It doesn't matter. What would you say to them as they were looking at ways to find success sooner?

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:24:43]: Yeah. I think one of the main things that I tell to prospective applicants, not just at the PhD level, probably more so at the master's level, is to have a really clear understanding of why you wanna do that graduate degree. So especially at the master's level, I've come to learn that a lot of students finishing their undergraduate degrees that are considering a master's level, they're doing it for what I would consider really bad reasons. Some of them look at it like a glorified pause button. It's the, I don't know what I wanna do with my life, so let me spend 2 years in a master's program, and maybe the answer will magically come to my mind, which rarely does. The other is, well, I've been too late to applying for jobs. So let me go to a master's program to just give me more time to apply. That's a very expensive decision.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:25:33]: And then another, and this is the one that concerns me the most, is students believing a graduate degree in anything from anywhere on any topic will magically give me a great job that makes me feel satisfied in life. And we see this at the bachelor's level too where students graduating, and they go, I can't find a job. And you ask them, what job have you been preparing yourself for? And they can't answer. You're gonna see the same problem at at the master's level as well. And so my main piece of advice is first, have a very clear understanding of why you wanna get a graduate degree. And then 2, all of your decisions should follow from that why. So for example, if you wanna get a a graduate degree because you wanna be a user experience designer for a health care company. I mean, let's just say it's a scratch.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:26:28]: Because I've heard this from from students. Well, then when I say all of your decisions should follow from that, it's, okay, what schools not just necessarily have the best program that teach user experience design, but which ones offer collaborations with health care or which ones have collaborations with nursing departments? And those aren't always the number one school in the country for information systems or human computer interaction. You're looking for the best program for you and your particular goals. So those are my two pieces of advice. Just have a very clear understanding of why you wanna do a graduate degree and then have all of your subsequent decisions follow from that why.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:04]: Well, Doug, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this journey that you have shared and all of the advice that you have shared today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Doug Zytko [00:27:14]: Thanks, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a unique and deeply transformative journey. As Dr. Christopher Lewis outlines in this week's Victor's in Grad School podcast, every student travels their own path toward advanced degrees, facing distinct challenges and triumphs along the way. This episode features Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer, an Associate Professor and Director of the Masters in Software Engineering program at the University of Michigan Flint's College of Innovation and Technology, who shares his insightful experiences and suggestions for finding success in graduate school.

Finding Your True Passion The Decision to Pursue a Master's Degree When Dr. Mkaouer completed his bachelor’s degree at the Universite de Tunis, he was at a crossroads. Instead of jumping straight into the professional world, he chose to pursue a master’s degree. As he reflects, finding a career that you genuinely enjoy is crucial. At that point, he didn't know exactly what he wanted to do, so he decided to continue his education to gather more experience and skills, which would later guide him in making more informed career choices.

Emphasizing Research and Continuous Learning A recurring theme in Dr. Mkaouer’s journey was his interest in research. As he transitioned from his master’s to his PhD, he found a passion for research, particularly in software engineering. His thirst for knowledge and his desire to solve complex problems led him to further his education in the United States, where he continued his studies at the Missouri University of Science and Technology and later, the University of Michigan Dearborn. For students contemplating this path, Dr. Mkaouer insists on the importance of diving deep into research areas that ignite your curiosity and passion.

Charting a Course in PhD Studies The Role of Mentorship One of the significant points Dr. Mkaouer discusses is the importance of a solid mentor-mentee relationship during PhD studies. When his advisor moved to another institution, Dr. Mkaouer chose to follow. He stresses that an academic advisor's vision should align with your own, serving as a consistent support system throughout the demanding PhD journey.

Navigating Obstacles PhD studies are ripe with challenges—from rigorous academic requirements to unexpected changes, like a mentor leaving. Dr. Mkaouer advises students to be adaptable and remain focused on their long-term goals. He also emphasizes the significance of building a robust support network of like-minded peers who can provide both technical and emotional support.

Preparing for Professional Success Beyond Grades: Developing Skills Dr. Mkaouer emphasizes that the goal of a graduate degree is not simply to get good grades but to develop a unique skill set that separates you from others in a competitive job market. He recalls his struggles and eventual success with mastering algorithms, a crucial skill for his career. His consistent effort and extra work beyond the standard curriculum were what truly set him apart.

Utilizing Resources and Mentorship Graduate programs offer numerous resources and mentorship opportunities, which students should fully utilize. Dr. Mkaouer mentions that many students are unaware of the extensive support available to them. He advises attending seminars, engaging with faculty, and seeking out additional learning materials to supplement formal coursework.

Dr. Mkaouer’s experiences illustrate that the journey through graduate school is multifaceted—marked by continuous learning, adaptability, and a relentless pursuit of passion. By finding your true interests, leveraging mentorship, and developing unique skills, you can navigate the complexities of graduate education and set yourself up for a successful professional career. If you're considering this path, remember that each step, no matter how challenging, is a building block toward your dreams.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, we are on a journey together. I call it a journey because you are on a journey toward graduate school right now. You could be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about what is graduate school and do I really wanna do this and what type of program am I interested in? Or you could be at a point where you've already applied and now you're starting to figure out, did you get accepted? If you got accepted, what programs did you get accepted to and where might you want to attend? Or maybe you're in a program and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel and you're starting to plan for your future beyond graduate school, no matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do along the way that will help you to find success. And you can find that success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: So every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can share their own journey. Not only their journey through their education, but their journey through their profession that they can then reflect back on to provide you with some some tips, some tools that you can add to your own toolbox and help you to be successful in the end. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Mohamed Mkaouer is with us today. And doctor Makaur is a associate professor at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Innovation and Technology, and I am really excited to be able to talk to him about his own journey coming to the United States after getting his bachelor's and master's from the Universite de Tunis to going to the to the universe the Missouri University of Science and Technology and then to the University of Michigan Dearborn to get his PhD in computer software engineering. So I'm really excited to be able to talk to him and learn more from him today and allow for you to learn from him as well. Mohamed, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:02:24]: Of course. It's my pleasure, Christopher. So when I heard about your podcast and I heard that this is an opportunity for me to really help students, of course, me being a professor working with students every day and also being a director of software engineering and artificial intelligence here at Intelligence here at the University of Michigan Flint, I cannot miss an opportunity for me to help students with any means possible, including understanding what they expect, what they can see, maybe hopefully inspire them, hopefully answer some of their questions, things that they may not realize. They're important, but they are. And me sharing my experience as a student, then perhaps a faculty or a profession, and how and how my experience as a, you know, my grad student studies have shaped my profession right now. I think it's something that I wanna share with everyone. And hopefully, it will be helping helpful to anyone who's listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:10]: So one of the things that I love doing first and foremost is turning the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate and master's degree work at the Universite de Tunis. And at some point during that undergraduate degree, you decided to continue on into the master's. So can you bring me that back initially to that point? What made you decide initially that you wanted to continue on after the bachelor's in your home country at your university to continue on for the that additional 2 years to get that master's degree?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:03:40]: Well, the answer is going to be interesting because it will lead me to my first maybe tip, right? Which is perhaps I'll start with that is, you really need to find something that you truly enjoy. Okay? That's, I think, my number one, if not 0, advice that I would give to anyone is to really understand what is your vision, what do you dream about. Because all of us, we have something we dream about, Whether and it's a dream because you don't even consciously do it. It's just a dream that comes to you, and then you start developing that in the back of your mind, and then you decide that you wanna do this. So we all have things we dream about, and one of the things I would truly advise is for you to find that vision, that dream job, that career that you wanna build. Figure that out first, and build then a path towards that career. And maybe to answer your question now, Christopher, the reason why I moved from bachelor's to master's is because I did not know back then what exactly I wanted to do. So I was somehow postponing that decision and maybe gathering more experience and more skills and more knowledge that can maybe help me, you know, shape that direction.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:04:43]: So so back then, I was also a major. I was I had, like, a full GPA, honors student, so I was really doing great in school. So I was able to get a lot of job offers from industry, which I joined industry back then, but I was not fully convinced that this is what I picture myself doing from the rest of my career. So I decided to also do grad school to keep that to buy myself some time and try to see whether this new experience will help me figure out what I wanted to do next. Right? And obviously, that did not also work out because I decided to go for a PhD. Right? And during that time, what also made me decide to do PhD is because I realized that I'm really enjoying doing this. Because as you know, when you move to a grad school, you have you add that component of research, which I found really to be very interesting. So I decided to do maybe to do more of that and buy myself actually more time to know what I wanna do next.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:05:30]: And that's what brought me to the US, you know, to to continue my PhD studies and started in Missouri, like you mentioned. And then I moved to University of Michigan Dearborn, which was an extraordinary experience, you know, being in the system, and that's why I'm back here. So, yeah, during also that time, I realized that I'm really enjoying research, and I realized that this is something I wanna do for the rest of my career because after taking more steps towards it, I realized this is exactly what I want to do next, and I started developing the skill set for it. And even during that time, you would still not necessarily figure out all the different details. For instance, I was wondering whether I should do a research career in academia or industry, which is a typical question that a lot of students also get at their grad school. Am I fit for research? Should I go for academia or industry? And maybe my next advice is to try a little bit of both. It wouldn't hurt for you to try to test the waters. So you can try a little bit of both and see where you really see yourself fitting.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:06:22]: So what I did back then is I I started teaching courses at University of Michigan Dearborn while I'm still a student. You know, like, you know, so you can also as a student, you can also apply for greater opportunities. You know, try to see how the academic life looks like. Right? Try to be in the classroom, you know, so you can be a a teaching assistant, etcetera. So I started doing a little bit of that to have to see how that looks like and whether I enjoy doing that. Also, during the summer, I started to go for internships. I did some internships here in Detroit, down in Detroit, to see whether also I see myself feeling better in industry. And after spending some time in both, being a teaching assistant at the University of Michigan Dearborn and also doing some internships throughout the way, I realized that I enjoy really investing on people.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:07:04]: That was my real passion, and I realized that I'm going to continue for academia because this is what I saw myself being really happy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:11]: So I wanna go back to that jump from being in Tunisia to coming to the United States. And as you made that decision to continue your education, as you mentioned, to get the PhD, as many students do, as they're identifying that next opportunity, they have to do some research. They have to figure out for themselves, what am I looking for? What type of program? What's the best fit? So you ended up initially going to Missouri University of Science and Technology for a doctorate of philosophy in computer software engineering. Talk to me about bring me back to that point where you had that inkling that you wanted to go further and that research then that you went through to be able to identify that program as the right program. Now I know that that's not where you ended your degree. But what made you initially choose not only to go to Missouri University of Science and Technology, but also to choose the PhD in computer software engineering versus some other area?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:08:15]: Well, it that decision first of all, I wanna give it since you you brought that back in that time, I was always looking for a major that that would strengthen my skills in different domains. This is how I thought I should be doing. So if you look at my first bachelor, I was specialized in what we called the e learning back then. It was computer science, but I was specialized in e learning. Then I wanted to try something slightly different or entirely different, so I did master's with distributed systems. So my thesis was around distributed systems and cloud computing. And then I realized that through my experience and industrial experience back then too, that what I really truly enjoy or triggered my curiosity in research was something with software. And that's how I get to know software engineering, and that's how I get to start looking for people who can give me more insights about how their that research is going to, to be looking like.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:05]: And that's when I met my academic adviser, and that's how I was able to see that the research in software engineering in particular has a lot of impact into industry. It actually helps developers be more productive. It helps the whole life cycle of software become more efficient, which will save us 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 of dollars combating errors and anomalies and vulnerabilities that we are living in right now in our infrastructure. Because obviously, that is actually, one of the biggest expenses we have in our economy is actually bugs, software bugs. It's still happening as we speak. Over $3,000,000,000 a year. That's an astronomical number. That's a big number.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:09:42]: So I realize that me helping people through that is something I'm interested in. So showing the impact of that research on people's lives is what made me realize that this is what I want to do for the rest of of my career. And I'm happy to see that to say that I'm doing this in multiple dimensions. 1 is research. You know, when I work in ways to improve the soft the qualities of the software. That's me helping a lot of companies such as Xerox, Microsoft right now, JetBrains Research, helping them build better frameworks for millions of people. That's through my research. Also through my teaching here at the University of Michigan Flint, I'm teaching right now as we speak a course called Software Testing and Quality Assurance.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:10:25]: So I was able to exercise my research into the classroom and help students write better code and learn how to test their own code, which hopefully will reduce and minimize the number of errors once they once they graduate and go to industry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:38]: Now I know that sometimes when you go into a graduate program, it's smooth sailing, not many bumps in the road. Other times, things can happen, and you have to go with the flow. And you have to do some pivoting and some kind of go around the a curve that you might not have expected. And I'm gonna venture, I guess, to say that going from one institution to the next was probably not in your mind when you first went in, but that there was a little bit of a pivot there. And sometimes that happens at a PhD level, that you have a specific individual that you're working with, a faculty member that you're working with, and that person leaves, but they're still your mentor, you're the person that you're working with on your research. So we've never really talked about this on the show, but can you talk a little bit about that journey for you, going from one institution to a next as a PhD student? Because for some PhD students, this will happen, and it could derail their process if they're not aware of it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:11:42]: That is correct. So this is going to be now specifically to PhD students. Right? So I think a lot of situations where you'll because a PhD study is typically, you know, a study would just go between 4 to 6 years long, so there is always a chance of you being mentored by a supervisor who might leave the institution. Because of how long that program is, there is a stronger chance or a stronger probability that you will end up having the situation compared to, for example, a master's student. Right? So for PhD students, yes, there is a chance, there is always a chance that your supervisor or your academic advisor or thesis advisor, depending on how you call it, will actually leave the institute. And now you have the choice somehow to either stay in your institute and find another advisor, which probably means you have to switch your research altogether to something different, or you got the chance to move with your advisor and continue that line of research. So to me, it was the situation, and it was also happening right when I started. So it was in the end of 1st year.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:12:39]: So I wasn't really too much committed into my research back then, like in terms of, for example, publications, etcetera, which made the situation easy for me to make a decision whether to stay or to move. Right? But of course, because I was so convinced into the research I'm doing, I was so into it, and I was also in very good terms with my advisor, which I believe this is a key to success. When you are looking for a PhD opportunity, get comfortable with your PhD advisor because that relationship is stronger than just a master advisor for instance, which is a short term relationship. But for a PhD, it's the apprentice. This is what they call, you know, the apprentice model. So you need to really be in the same page, the same vision of your adviser so that you can actually flourish together. And that's exactly the reason why I decided to move my adviser. And I told him back then when when he proposed it, do you wanna move me? I said, I will go with the moon with you if you're moving.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:13:27]: I don't care where you go. I'm just gonna be with you as long as we keep this research vision. And that's because I was able to achieve my first tip, which is knowing exactly what I want. You know? So that's when now you know how to do it and how you can navigate the different obstacles that you will get throughout the way. Because a PhD journey in particular has a lot of bumps. This is how it is. You know? My father always says, if you're doing something that tends to be easy, maybe you're doing the wrong thing. So so PhD was totally worth it, but it's also it was a difficult journey because of how, you know, elitist it is in in by nature.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:01]: Right? You are competing with people who are really world class researchers, People who are, you know, they develop and devote their life and their career for the greater good. So you are competing with this level of excellent researchers. So to be one of them, it requires a lot of sacrifice, a lot of commitment, and a lot of devotion and love and passion for what you do, plus sacrifice as well, obviously. So that's the shape of a PhD, which I would totally do again. For me it was enjoyable because I knew exactly what I was doing. And part of it is also to surround yourself with people who share your same vision. That's very important, very critical for whatever you do, whether you are a master or PhD. You have a goal, you have a vision.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:14:41]: Make sure you're surrounded with people that would help you flourish because they can help you. They can be your counselors. They can be your therapists at some point. They can be supporting you technically and emotionally and socially. And also, they will be your future network once you graduate. A lot of the students that share my same vision with me and I skipped relationship with them, now they are my colleagues in different institutes. We collaborate with them, we collaborate together, we write papers together. A lot of others are now in industry, in Amazon, other places.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:15:09]: So we also have that professional connection together. We share some students, we send I send them some students to go for internship with them. So that's also your future network because you have a similar vision. So most likely, you'll stay connected together throughout your whole career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:22]: Now you went through your bachelor's, your master's, your PhD. You found success. You graduated, you got those degrees, you moved into your professional career and continued on in your professional career. And in each of those transitions from bachelor's to master's, from master's to doctorate, you go through transitions. And at every level, there are different expectations. There are different ways in which you're being educated, and you have to come to a better understanding of that as a student to be able to understand what is expected of you and the not only in the institutional context, but institutional context, but in the programmatic context of the program that you're in. So as you think back to your own education and also the transitions that you see in students that you work with on a daily basis, Think back to first let's first start with focus well, actually, as you think back to your own education and you think back to the transitions that you had personally, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you entered into a program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of those graduate degrees?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:16:35]: Excellent question. So my number one advice as potentially a former student and now a director is that each program we are here to support you to succeed. So you need really to know what each program is offering and use all the resources you can get to make that success happen. Because each program, at least here in Flint for instance, we have a lot of support for our students and our students I feel like sometimes they don't even know these resources, they exist. So make sure to attend all the different seminars we have. Listen to what your advisors say. Listen to the faculty. Ask questions whenever you can.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:17:13]: And then start planning your success accordingly. Because why? Because you can. Like for instance, I'll give myself an example. So I realized that for me, for instance, to be successful in the kind of things I'm doing, which is, for instance, you know, developing algorithms, I had to be really good at algorithms. I knew this is something that was critical to me to succeed in what I want to do. And success, at least in my case, was not just to get a good degree or a good grade. It's actually to be able to solve concrete problems that are so laser focused that not a typical resource can help you do that. So I had to really develop skills across multiple books, and that's what I did.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:17:51]: I started reading a lot of books and algorithms, solving a lot of problems in in a lot of algorithmic references in which that a typical student may not need to do necessarily. But for me, I knew this is going to be helping me for the kind of problems I want to solve in the future. So I tried developing my own career or kind of, skills. Right? And, and that was not an easy thing to do, by the way. I'm just saying this, it sounds easy, but it's not. It took me, for instance, the first book that I was working, I was using as a reference was called, Interactions to Algorithms. It's a phenomenal book, not easy to read. It's an MIT book, I think.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:18:24]: So I started working on that book and I think the first chapter, it took me almost a month to even navigate the first chapter of that book. It was something new to me, so I had to develop that skill set. And but after that, I started realizing that it's getting easier and easier for me to just do that. So consistency is very important. And then by the end of these 2 semesters, I think I was able to solve the whole book. And when I did that, I felt like I can fly to the moon now. And I was able to develop that kind of skills that I saw helping me become a better developer and also a better thinker and problem solver. So, yes, if you are a master's student right now listening to this and you are in a submajor, there are references that you know that if you read them carefully, you'll be able to become a better person in the future.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:19:06]: So why not doing it and planning it now? You can actually do it. So, yeah, that's for me at least one way for me to plan for for that. And and, of course, it may not be easy, so please use your faculty, your mentors as resources and seek for advice because they'll be more than happy to help you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:22]: All great advice. I really appreciate you sharing that. Now you work with a lot of students as well, and you see them as they enter the program, as they go through the program, and you had your own experiences as a graduate student yourself, and you've been giving a lot of piece of advice today. And I guess as we look at finishing up today and thinking about success in general, as you look back to not only your own graduate education, but also as you think about other students, students that you work with or just graduate students in general, what are some tips that you want to offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:01]: Yes. So I think the difference between and I see this as my personal opinion. The difference between undergrad degree and a grad degree is that undergrad degree, you are really looking for a degree to get to set you up for for a job. But the grad degree is setting you up for what you want to do next with your career. So that should be your mindset, which means that if you are taking classes at the graduate level, you aren't taking classes to get to get a to get an A on A plus You're getting classes to develop a skill set that would make you unique in the market and also unique in a way to develop your own path in the market. And this market is extremely competitive. That's that's the truth of it. Right? And maybe you being a grader student because you you you already realize that.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:20:40]: That's why you are do taking a message because you don't wanna tackle that level. So that's why grades should not be your goal. It should be a consequence of your excellence towards building that path. That's my number one advice is that so don't stick to what the course is telling you to do. That should be your minimum effort, not the maximum effort. That's my number one also advice to students who are taking classes right now. Whatever expectations or course workload that the faculty is giving you, that should be your minimum bar, because that's for everyone. But what makes you different from them is the extra step that you will take to be better than everyone else if you really want to be excellent.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:21:19]: And that's the excellence that I want to see my students doing. And a lot of students actually have gone through that and were able to get into their dream job. I can bring a lot of examples, but students who really came to me, I have I will just give one example. My PhD student. My first PhD student, I was interviewing him for PhD, and I told him, what do I do in your career? He said, I want to be a senior developer at Microsoft. I said, that's it. This is my goal. I will just do it.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:21:42]: And then I'm like, alright. Let's let's see that. And to me, you know, back then, for someone who is barely starting their masters to have that kind of high expectations, I'm like, okay. I appreciate that kind of thing, and I really hope they can do that. And I've seen them developing the right skill set for that. I've seen them spending a lot of time, compared to the other students, training and developing because the kind of position they wanna go to is requires a lot of programming. So they were doing extra programming. They were emailing me constantly.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:08]: Professor, give me more. And I'm like, have you done your homework already? He said, yeah, of course. And you just need more. So it was more demanded than others, and I was obviously helping that student, giving them more assignments that I think can help them. And indeed, they developed a kind of skill set that helped them get into that dream job, and now they are actually, successfully developed by Microsoft. And I, by the way, I brought them here on campus in Flint. They gave a lecture. They gave advice to prospective students.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:33]: So if you are listening to me right now and you have that kind of dream job, please contact me. I can hook you up, and they can talk to you about how you can do that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:41]: Well, Mohamed, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all this advice today, for sharing some of your own experiences, but also your experiences as a faculty member to help other students as they're thinking about their own graduate school journey. And I wish you all the best.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:22:55]: Thank you so much, Christopher. And I and I hope that I was able to help. And please, I'm sure they can find my email online. So So my name is, again, Mohamed Wianne Macower. My email is mmkaouer@umich.edu. You can also Google me as director of AI and software engineering. If you have any questions about these programs, I'll be more than happy to help you. If you have any questions about anything about graduate studies, I'll be more than happy to share with you my advice, and let's keep in touch.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:21]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:22]: Ways that you might be able to fill the gaps in on your resume.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:25]: Great tips. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Ariana. And I am really looking forward to hearing what your next steps are and seeing where you go from here. But I truly appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing all of this, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Mohamed Mkaouer [00:23:42]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great, and I hope that someone finds some good tips and some help from this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on a journey through graduate school is transformative. For many students, it's a leap that demands resilience, curiosity, and unwavering determination. In this week's episode of Victors in Grad School we sat down with Grant Voisinet, a graduate of the Doctorate of Nurse Anesthesia Practice (DNAP) program at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss his path to becoming a nurse anesthetist. Grant shared invaluable insights and reflections on his journey from undergraduate education to becoming a full-fledged CRNA (Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist) and educator.

The Initial Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Grant Voisinet knew from early on in his nursing career that he wanted to further his education. His initial plan was to become a nurse practitioner, but exposure to the role of nurse anesthetists in the ICU where he worked changed his career trajectory. "Seeing what CRNAs did and the level of respect they commanded in the operating room piqued my interest," Grant recounted. It was through shadowing these professionals and discussing the field with an anesthesiologist that his passion for anesthesia solidified.

Choosing the Right Program: Why U of M Flint? Selecting the right graduate program is a critical step. Grant chose the University of Michigan Flint for several reasons. He appreciated the program's well-structured progression—starting with heavy didactic coursework and gradually increasing clinical exposure. Furthermore, the university’s prestigious reputation and the supportive faculty played a significant role in his decision. As Grant put it, “The progression of U of M’s program and the supportive faculty made it stand out.”

Transitioning Back to Education Returning to academia after working in the field requires significant adjustment. For Grant, preparing for the GRE and CCRN exams before applying to the DNAP program helped ease this transition. Once in the program, he experimented with various study techniques to find what worked best for him. “I tried four or five study techniques before finding the most efficient one,” Grant shared. His approach had to adapt further as he transitioned from didactic learning to hands-on clinical placements.

Moving from Student to Educator After graduating, Grant’s commitment to education didn’t stop. He began teaching at U of M Flint while continuing to practice clinically. His drive to educate the next generation of nurse anesthetists stems from his own positive experiences and the desire to give back. As an instructor who also works in the OR, he brings real-world experience to his students. “I wanted to help shape the minds of the new CRNAs and ensure they provide the best care possible,” he said.

Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students Grant offers prospective graduate students several pieces of advice:

1. Expect Challenges:

Graduate school is demanding, but maintaining focus on end goals is crucial. 2. Ask Questions:

Engaging with faculty and peers through questions enhances understanding and retention. 3. Build Connections:

Developing a support network among classmates is invaluable for sharing knowledge and experiences.

Grant Voisinet's journey exemplifies the dedication and adaptability required to succeed in graduate school and professional practice. His story underscores the importance of selecting the right program, finding effective study habits, and maintaining a balance between professional practice and education. As Dr. Lewis highlighted, having mentors like Grant who understand and guide students through their academic and professional pathways is essential for success. For those considering a similar path, Grant’s experiences provide a roadmap that blends perseverance, continuous learning, and a passion for teaching.

For more information on graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit umflint.edu/graduate-programs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, we are on a journey together, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Whether you are at the very beginning and just starting to think about, do I want to do this grand school thing? Or maybe you've applied and gotten accepted. Maybe you are in graduate school working toward that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, there is a continuum. There is a there is a journey that you're on that you're going to be going through from the very beginning to the very end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: And there are things that you can do to be able to find success sooner. And those are not always things that you might know about. And it's so it's important to be able to take the time to learn, to be willing to listen, and to grow from individuals that have gone before you, that have been able to figure out for themselves what did it take for them to be successful. Because what they can do is then share that with you to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you to find that success. And that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have gone to graduate school, have been successful in graduate school, have come out on the other side, and have been successful, and they are sharing that success with you. Today, we got another great guest with us. Grant Voisonette is with us, and Grant is a graduate of the doctorate of nurse anesthetist program at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: He did his undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University and went on to get that degree at the University of Michigan Flint. We'll talk about that and get to know him a little bit better in that regard. Grant, thanks so much for being here today.

Grant Voisinet [00:02:10]: Yes. Thanks for having me, Chris. I'm excited to talk to everybody about, about my journey and, what it took for me to get to where I am now. So thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: I'm really excited to be able to have you here today. And, the, the first thing that I love doing in these opportunities to talk with people about their experiences is to turn the clock back in time. So I'm gonna go back to that moment that you made that that switch. And I know you you did your undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University. You graduated, went off into the workforce, got some experience, because that's kind of what you have to do to become a nurse anesthesist.

Grant Voisinet [00:02:45]: You got to have some nursing experience to be able to do that. But you got that experience. But at some point in those first few years of being a nurse and being out in the field, you made a choice. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education, and you made a decision to continue it and to work toward becoming a nurse anesthetist. Bring me back to that point. What made you make that decision of going to graduate school?

Grant Voisinet [00:03:13]: Well, I kind of always knew I wanted to go back and get a further degree other than nursing. I enjoy helping people, and I enjoy being at the bedside. Originally, I wanna go back and be a nurse practitioner. I thought that that's the path that that I wanted to be. When I first got my job in the ICU outside of school, I worked with very sick patients, and I would get patients back from the operating room and nurse anesthetists would bring them to me. And the first couple of times, I didn't really know honestly what nurse anesthesia was. And then I started probing the CRNA that would bring patients back to me and ask them, like, what their job entailed and and they'd explain it to me. And once I saw all that they did, and when they walked into the ICU and commanded the room and everyone respected them, I was like, yeah, that's something that I wanna do.

Grant Voisinet [00:04:02]: I wanna be able to still work at the bedside in this capacity with sick patients and to have my advanced degree. So that was really exciting to me. And so I started seeking out opportunities to shadow, CRNAs in in the actual operating room. 1 of my dad's friends happened to be an anesthesiologist, and so I chatted with him a couple of times to see what anesthesia was, And I fell in love with it. So that's kind of what pushed me in the CRNA direction versus the the nurse practitioner direction.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: And you chose to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. So talk to me about that, because there are other c n r CRNA programs that you could have chosen, whether it be in the state of Michigan or beyond. So I'm sure that you went through some process to be able to take a look at the different programs to try to figure out which would be the right one for you. And how did you choose U of M Flint as the place for you?

Grant Voisinet [00:05:03]: So when I first started looking, I there's 5 programs in in the state of Michigan. They're all phenomenal programs. I worked 2 ICU jobs. One was at Mid Michigan and one of my coworkers had just gotten into U of M's program. And I she worked a little bit the 1st semester that she was in still in the ICU. And so I talked to her about the program and she discussed with me the setup of the program, the faculty, the clinical sites that they rotated to, and all what she said kind of checked the boxes for me. And it helps that to University of Michigan program and University of Michigan is a phenomenal school. And so all of those kind of combined that I obviously then did my research on the other schools, and I liked how you have influenced program was set up.

Grant Voisinet [00:05:50]: A lot of didactic at the beginning, like a lot of your science classes, your core class you need to know before going to the operating room, and then it eases you in to clinical in the ORs 2 days a week and then full time. And I really liked the progression of the program that U of M has to offer. And then once I was in the program, I realized that, yes, how the program is set up is fantastic. The faculty were amazing. They're supportive, always willing to help and make sure not only didactically and clinically we are succeeding, but also our mental health, especially I went during COVID, our mental health during all that was in check-in and doing well as well because in order for us to succeed, at least for me, mental health is a big deal. And the faculty here in the DNAP program at U of M Flint is second to none. They are really phenomenal.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:40]: Now every student that goes through the graduate program has to make a transition. So you you went and you made a transition from both undergrad to workforce and worked for a number of years. So then you had to come back to education. You make that transition from the workforce to education. And the way that you're taught as an undergraduate student is not the same as the way in which you're taught as a graduate student. There's a transition there as well. So talk to me about transitions. And what did you have to do to find success as you transitioned into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the entirety of the program?

Grant Voisinet [00:07:28]: So for me, my whole life, I've had a strong foundation for scholastics. I worked hard in high school, I worked hard in undergrad as many people that are in this program or all the people that are in this program do, and in order to continue into the program, it's changed a little bit now, but we had to take the GRE was a test that we had to take and get a score on, and submit it to the program. Now there's another exam, it's called the CCRN, that nurses take to show their knowledge within the ICU or critical care area. And so before I got into school, I did all of these exams and studied for these these tests, which kind of kept me grounded in the studying aspect a little bit. So when I got into the program and started that 1st semester, I kind of already had started transitioning back into studying while I was preparing to to apply to the program, with those other exams. So that was beneficial. Other than that, I just kind of had to relearn different study habits for the amount of material that I learned. So instead of just having to study for this GRE or the CCRN, I had 5 different didactic classes of different areas of knowledge that I had to learn.

Grant Voisinet [00:08:37]: And so the 1st semester, I think I went through 4 or 5 different study techniques to see which worked best for me. And then I finally found what was the most time efficient and beneficial for me, and I kind of stuck with that throughout the remainder of the program. As it progressed, didactic kind of decreased and clinical increased. And so when that happened, my mindset had to switch again. I had to go from, oh, how do I study for this exam to how do I prepare for this huge cranny that I have the next day? Or how do I prepare for my open heart rotation? And so then I had to reassess how to learn or prepare for that aspect. And then finally, at the end, we have to take a big certification or licensing exam to get our license, and then I had to kind of revert back to how I studied didactically at the beginning of the program. So it's kind of jumping back and forth throughout.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:28]: Now you graduated. You got out into the workforce. You're using that degree now, and you're also teaching in the program. So you've come back and now you're teaching and you're working with other students. Talk to me about that transition for yourself and what made you decide to not only go out and use the degree in a practical sense of working in the hospitals, but now coming back to educate other students.

Grant Voisinet [00:09:55]: So even when I was in nursing, as a nurse at the bedside, I always had this desire to teach students. I liked having student nurses or orienting them essentially, and I knew I wanted to teach in some aspect. So when I started anesthesia school, the professors that we had, Doctor. Wahl, Jeffrey and Koviak, they still worked clinically at the bedside while also teaching full time the program. And I really liked that aspect of it, and I liked how they could have the best of both worlds essentially. So I graduated, I started working at McLaren, and I got students pretty quickly after I graduated, coming to clinical. And so I would be the preceptor at at the hospital for the cases. And I really loved watching this 1st semester clinical student come in and get their 1st intubation ever, the excitement, the real on their face, the relief on their face.

Grant Voisinet [00:10:49]: And then I also enjoyed having a student that was struggling doing this, me walking them through different techniques that I do to be able to get a difficult intubation, and then the next one they get and they nail. And again, the excitement that they finally got this task that they were trying to do. And so seeing that in these students that I would get in in the clinical setting made me kinda think about, oh, maybe I wanna teach too. Maybe I wanna do the do both things like my faculty did. And so then I had a class in the winter of last year as a Leo, and so I taught one class. And then in the spring summer, I taught 2 classes and then a position opened and I applied and I got in. And since then I've been teaching full time there and I went down to once a week to once a month at McLaren working clinically, and so I can still do the anesthesia that I really love to do, but I can also help shape the minds of the new that are coming in and make sure that they are prepared to to give the best care possible to the patients that they take care of.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: So now as you think back to the education that you got in the program, and as you look back at the education that you got and you think about the journey that you went on as a graduate student yourself, as you look at the students that you're interacting with now as a faculty member and the interactions that you've had with them, and you think about students just in general that are going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those students that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Grant Voisinet [00:12:20]: I think the most important thing is they need to know that it's going to be challenging. It's going to be hard. And just to kind of get their mindset, and on some days, this is gonna suck. It's not gonna be fun, but kind of just look at the end goal and what they wanna do and how they wanna progress their lives. Don't be afraid to ask questions. I know as a student, I asked questions all the time. I wanted to make sure I understood what they were teaching me so I could keep my patient safe and so I could understand it, so I could teach it to somebody else one day. And asking questions, it's always gonna be beneficial.

Grant Voisinet [00:12:55]: It's gonna make you think about why the answer is what it is or isn't what you thought it was. And so I think asking questions is the best piece of advice I can give. Along with that, if you're in the program, when you're going to a program, make connections with your classmates. Having that connection, honestly, when I was in school helped so much, maybe because it was COVID, but I was able to lean on them. When there was a hard case that I did, I could message them, and I could say, Hey, this was a kind of a crummy day at clinical. What would you do different? How could I improve for the next day? And they, we would talk about what happened. We would talk about difficult assignments and things like that. And just having that support system of people that are actually going through what you're going through was also very beneficial to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:38]: Well, Grant, I just wanna say thank you. Thank for thank you for the the information that you shared today, for the sharing the journey that you went through, but also the work that you're doing to be able to educate additional students and helping other students through this process, through this journey that they're on. Because it can be challenging, as you said, and sometimes it can be hard. And having those mentors and those individuals there that understand the experience that they're going through and are there to shepherd and guide them through that is so critical. So I truly appreciate the work that you're doing and what you've shared today, and I wish you the best.

Grant Voisinet [00:14:13]: Thank you so much, Chris. I appreciate you having me, and I I look forward to chitchatting with you again about this maybe one day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Navigating graduate school while balancing life, work, and personal aspirations is no easy feat. Yet for Dr. Denise Cooper, Program Director for the Doctorate of Nursing Practitioner (DNP) program at the University of Michigan Flint, it’s a path laden with challenges, rewards, and invaluable lessons. In this week's Victors in Grad School, Dr. Cooper shared her journey and provided insights for those considering or currently navigating the rigors of graduate education.

From Undergraduate to Advanced Practice Nursing Dr. Cooper’s journey began as an undergraduate at the University of Michigan Flint, where she initially set her sights on becoming a nurse anesthetist. Despite her passion and preparation, shadowing professionals in the field revealed that her aspirations didn’t align with the realities of the role. She realized she yearned for deeper patient interactions, a value she felt would be better fulfilled by becoming a nurse practitioner.

“After shadowing, I’m so glad I did that because I decided that that definitely was not what I wanted to do,” Cooper shared. This pivotal moment highlighted the importance of real-world experiences in solidifying career decisions.

The Leap to Doctoral Education After obtaining her Master’s degree in Nursing, Dr. Cooper could have easily settled into her role as a practicing Nurse Practitioner. However, her commitment to education and teaching led her to pursue a terminal degree.

“The longer I was a nurse practitioner practicing, and I was also teaching, I started talking to some of the other faculty, and then the former director at the time encouraged me to go back,” explained Cooper. Her decision was fueled by a desire to grow both as an educator and a practitioner, and to enhance her capacity to contribute to her field.

Balancing Act: Life, Work, and Education Dr. Cooper’s educational journey was marked by significant life events. “Like many nurses, I was a mother, married, had family that I was tending to, trying to be the career nurse, also career as a student, managing the family,” she noted. Notably, she had all her children while in grad school, a tremendous challenge she does not recommend frivolously. The key to her success? “Perseverance and the willingness to pivot when needed.”

Her journey emphasizes that determination and adaptability are crucial to overcoming the myriad of obstacles that graduate students often face.

Preparing for a Role in Academia and Administration Transitioning into a full-time faculty role and eventually into administration, Dr. Cooper distills her growth into one word: exposure. Engaging with diverse colleagues, participating in committees, teaching varying courses, and attending conferences broadened her perspective and honed her problem-solving skills.

“Nursing is a lot of problem solving…there’s a lot of problem solving that goes on,” Dr. Cooper reflected. Embracing the philosophy that “everything is figureoutable” has been instrumental in her professional and personal growth.

Offering Advice to Aspiring Graduate Students To those embarking on a similar journey, Dr. Cooper advises a commitment to the process. “You have to really want it … be committed to gaining this degree and being a professional… there will be sacrifices to your family, and you have to go in understanding that.” This commitment, combined with the understanding that faculty are dedicated to their success, forms the bedrock of a graduate student’s journey.

Dr. Denise Cooper’s story is one of resilience, adaptability, and unwavering commitment. It serves as a testament and guide for current and prospective graduate students who aspire to navigate their own challenging yet rewarding paths in higher education. With the right mindset and support system, success in graduate school—and beyond—is within reach.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victors in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together. Whether you are at the very beginning just starting to think about, do I want to go back to school? Do I wanna continue my education? Or maybe you've already applied and got accepted. Or or maybe you're in graduate school, and you're watching for that light at the end of the tunnel getting ready to graduate and head off into your new career area. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And this show is here to be able to help you, to provide you with opportunities to learn, to grow, to gain some tools for your toolbox, and allow for you to be able to gain some perspective about things that you can do to find success sooner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that are able to share their own journey and what they learned in that journey to be able to help you on the journey that you're gonna be going on. Today, we got another great guest. Doctor Denise Cooper is with us today. And Denise is the program director for our doctorate of nursing practitioner program, the DNP program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint and then went on to get both a master's and doctorate degree from the University of Michigan. Really excited to have her here for her to share her journey. Denise, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:01:42]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: Really excited to have you here today and to talk to you further about your own journey. And for one of the things that I love to do at the very beginning is turn the clock back in time. So I would love to be able to go back. And I know, like I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. And at some point during that journey, during your early career, you you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to go back, continue your education, and get a further degree. Bring me back to that point. And what made you decide to move on to get that master's degree?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:02:22]: Well, I have to say that I kinda knew all along. So I didn't know all along that I wanted to be a nurse, but when I decided I wanted to be a nurse, I also decided that I wanted to be a nurse anesthetist. So my plan was to get my nursing degree and to work in a critical care area and to apply to anesthesia school at the University of Michigan Flint. After I became a nurse, I worked in the ICU, CCU area, which I absolutely loved. And while I was doing that, I decided that I was going to shadow some c r n a's that were at the hospital that I was working at. So I did end up shadowing 2 of them. And after shadowing, I'm so glad I did that because I decided that that definitely was not what I wanted to do, so that was quite a surprise to me. However, I did know that I wanted to advance my education, and so I determined that nurse practitioner would be the best option for me.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:03:16]: I really like the interaction with patients, And for me, that was really important, and I didn't think I was going to get that level of interaction as a CRNA, and but I knew I would get that as a nurse practitioner. I love helping people, and I just knew that I could help people at a higher level. And so that's what really brought me to University of Michigan in Ann Arbor to pursue my nurse practitioner master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:41]: Now you went on from there though, and you decided you got that that nurse practitioner degree. You could have stopped there. You could have said, I'm done. I'm just gonna go use this NP degree and go and practice and help people in different ways. But you made the choice to continue on and to get the DNP, the doctorate of nurse practitioner degree, the terminal degree for a nurse outside of the PhD in nursing. So talk to me about that, and what made you decide to push beyond the MSN?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:04:10]: So I didn't think I was gonna get my doctorate. I thought I was gonna stop at my masters. But the longer I was a nurse practitioner practicing, and I was also teaching, I started teaching at the University of Michigan Flint School of Nursing, and I started teaching in the undergraduate program. The more and more I was teaching in the undergraduate program, I moved into the graduate program as an just an adjunct faculty, and I was working as a nurse practitioner. I'm like, okay. I really like this. And I started talking to some of the other faculty, and then the former director at the time encouraged me to go back. And, so the more I researched the different terminal degrees, a PhD versus a DNP, I decided that a a practice degree was the area that I really wanted to pursue.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:04:51]: And it that it was I knew it was a terminal degree. I knew it was the right thing to do, and I knew that if if I wanted to work as a faculty member that I really needed to pursue completing my education, if you will, with that terminal degree. So I ended up going back to Ann Arbor and doing the MSN to DNP.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:08]: Now with every degree that a student goes through, there are transitions. So you had a transition from being a undergraduate student at the University of Michigan Flint, you transitioned into work, you transitioned from work, you back into the MSN, you you worked for a bit as an NP, You so you transitioned back into work, and then you transitioned back again and got that terminal degree. And you may have been doing some work while you were doing school too as as a part of that as well. So talk to me about well, as you think about all of those transitions, especially the transitions into different types of educational models, different schools, different programs, different expectations, what did you have to do as you transitioned into those different educational models and to find success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entire educational journey at each level?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:06:04]: There was a lot to maintaining it. So like many nurses, I was a mother, married, had family that I was tending to, trying to be the career nurse, also career as a student, managing the family, and just trying to make those decisions about what was the right thing to do. I will tell you that I had all of my children while I was in grad school, which, by the way, I don't recommend that to anyone, while I was getting my master's degree. So I've learned a lot along the way about what to do and what not to do. I made it work. It took me a little longer to get that master's, and I'm glad that I stuck with it and that I I stretched it out, but, you know, I kinda had to pivot. I had to to do things differently than I had planned, but it all worked out.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:48]: I appreciate you sharing that because it's it's definitely not always easy. And there's a lot there's bumps in the road. There's things that you have to overcome. And it's not always going to be smooth sailing. There are definitely going to be challenges. And sometimes the challenges are easy to overcome. Sometimes they are more much more difficult to overcome. But the perseverance piece is so important to be able to keep pushing through and to find those supports along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:14]: Now I know that you have transitioned into being a full time faculty member, a administrator now in the program, the graduate program at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I guess as you think back now to all of the different education that you had that led you to where you are today, and you think back to the the things that you learned and the programs that you went through, what are some of the things that you feel prepared you best for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:07:46]: Well, you know, time is one thing. The the longer you hear, the more you learn, the more you involve yourself with. Right? Being on committees, involvement with the community, teaching different classes at different levels, encountering lots of different students. We have a really diverse faculty here, so just learning from all of them. I think each of those things helped me grow. So and and just exposing myself to people outside of the university, attending conferences and presenting at conferences, partnering with faculty at other universities for publications and research studies. Just all of those things really just helped me grow into the position that I'm in now. I wouldn't say I ever saw myself in management position.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:08:30]: I just always saw myself in a nurse or nurse practitioner position where I was helping people, but what I have found is I actually I help lots of people in this position too. Nursing is a lot of problem solving, and this position, whether it's faculty teaching a course or whether it's a director, there's a lot of problem solving that goes on. So I think my experience, many years of experience, has positioned me well to be able to problem solve and figure things out. One of my colleagues has a plaque on her desk that I absolutely love, and it says everything is figureoutable. And that's my motto, is everything is figureoutable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:08]: Now I know that you work with a lot of graduate students of that you've worked with a lot of graduate students over the years, and you have had your own experience that has helped you to not only teach, but also to mentor and to help students along the way. As you think about students that you're seeing in your program right now, what are some of the biggest challenges that you see those graduate students running into? And what type of advice might you offer to them that would help them to be able to overcome those issues?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:09:39]: I would say grad students run into a variety of of issues, but I would say probably the biggest thing is that we're post licensure. Right? So we have nurses, and nurses are most of them are working, and a lot of them have families. And so unlike some other grad programs where students don't work, In our program, the students are working, and I would say that that way, the biggest thing that they encounter is time, a lack thereof. Grad school is heavy. It's not easy. It's doable, but it's not easy. And it does take a big time commitment, and there's a lot of sacrifices. I I always tell my students that there's you will make sacrifices.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:10:24]: There will be sacrifices to your family, and you have to go in understanding that and, you know, being committed to that. Students work a lot. They manage, lots of things within their families. Sometimes they carry the health insurance. And so we're very aware of a lot of the issues that our students encounter. And we do the best we can to have the curriculum designed to be able to help them through that, but they have to be committed and remain resilient and committed to the process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:52]: Well, Denise, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for the advice that you've offered to students. This has been great. And, you know, as you think about success and students, whether they are in your program, whether they're in another they're going toward another graduate degree, are there any other pieces of advice you'd want to give to all graduate students?

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:11:14]: I would say that, I guess, kind of I'm gonna go back to the commitment piece. You have to really want it. I want my students in my class, they have to want it more than I want it. So I want to make sure that they know that they're in the right place and that they're committed to gaining this degree and being a professional as a nurse practitioner or whatever graduate degree they're getting, physical therapist, physician's assistant, whatever it is, that that's their vision and that they're committed to that vision and also that they know that as faculty that we've all been there and we're committed to their success. We actually really care. We're not just here for a job. This isn't just a job to us. We are committed to their success.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:11:59]: Their success is our success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:01]: Well, as mentioned, Denise, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and for the work that you are doing with your students to be able to help them to be successful in the programs that they're in, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Denise Cooper [00:12:13]: Thank you. Appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:15]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a journey that resonates differently with each individual. For Dr. Chris Douglas, the Interim Dean of the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education, and a professor of economics at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey began with a passion for mathematics and science, and has culminated in an inspiring academic and professional career. In this week's episode of Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Douglas shares his experiences, offering valuable insights and strategies for achieving success in graduate school.

Discovering His Path Dr. Douglas began his academic journey at Michigan Technological University, where he pursued a double bachelor's degree. It was during this time that his passion for economics was ignited. He initially embarked on an engineering degree due to a strong affinity for math and science. However, an economics course shifted his trajectory, showcasing how mathematical models could elucidate real-world economic phenomena such as unemployment, recessions, and inflation.

This newfound interest led Dr. Douglas to pursue further studies in economics, leveraging the commonalities between economics and engineering, particularly in the use of advanced mathematical and statistical techniques.

The Decision to Pursue a PhD The decision to pursue graduate studies is a significant one, often influenced by various factors. For Dr. Douglas, it was a combination of personal interests and the state of the job market in 2001, a period marked by an economic recession. Encouragement from a professor, who recognized his aptitude for economics, further motivated him to apply for PhD programs. Ultimately, Dr. Douglas chose Michigan State University for his PhD, citing proximity to home, the program's prestigious ranking, and a generous fellowship package as key factors.

Transitioning to Graduate Studies Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate studies can be daunting. Dr. Douglas likens the experience to the difference between drinking from a garden hose and a fire hose, emphasizing the increased intensity and workload of a PhD program. He highlights the importance of building a support system by connecting with fellow classmates, especially in programs with rigorous coursework like economics or engineering.

One of Dr. Douglas's crucial strategies for success was collaborating with peers on complex problem sets, fostering a sense of camaraderie and support during challenging times. This approach not only facilitated academic success but also helped mitigate the loneliness that can accompany prolonged graduate studies.

From Academia to Administration While a PhD program prepares students for academic and research careers, it often doesn't directly equip them for administrative roles. Dr. Douglas's transition to the interim dean position was shaped more by accumulated experiences and mentorship than formal education. His progression from department chair to associate dean, and now interim dean, underscores the value of building relationships, seeking mentorship, and being open to feedback and continuous learning.

Tips for Success in Graduate School Drawing from his extensive experience, Dr. Douglas offers several valuable tips for aspiring graduate students:

1. Build Connections

Form relationships with classmates and professors to create a network of support and collaboration. 2. Seek Help Early

Utilize office hours and resources provided by faculty to stay ahead, especially in challenging subjects. 3. Don't Procrastinate

Begin work on major projects early and break them down into manageable steps to avoid feeling overwhelmed. 4. Embrace Mentorship

Seek guidance from experienced faculty and peers to navigate the complexities of graduate school and career development.

Dr. Chris Douglas’s journey through graduate school to his current role as an interim dean illustrates the multifaceted nature of academic and professional success. His insights serve as a valuable guide for current and prospective graduate students, emphasizing the importance of planning, collaboration, and continuous learning. For those embarking on this journey, Dr. Douglas’s story is a testament to the rewards that perseverance, support, and strategic planning can bring.

For more information on graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit UM-Flint Graduate Programs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, walk with you on this path that you're on because it is a journey. You you and I are on a journey together as we're looking at graduate school, as you're considering graduate school, as you you know, and and you might be at many different places. You could be just starting to think about graduate school, haven't even applied. You might maybe you applied, and you just got that acceptance letter. Maybe you're in graduate school, or you're getting toward the end of graduate school, and you see that light at the end of the tunnel.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: No matter where you are, this is a journey that you're on. And throughout this journey, there are many opportunities for you to be able to find success. And that's that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find success sooner. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can talk about those experiences and share what they learned in their own graduate school journey to be able to help you on yours. This week we've got another great guest. Doctor Chris Douglas is with us. And Chris is the interim dean of the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education and a professor of economics at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: And he's been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. And his journey led him from being a undergraduate student at Michigan Technological University to becoming a PhD student at Michigan State University. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that he went on and which led him to being a faculty member and working with students like yourself in at the University of Michigan Flint. Chris, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:00]: Oh, you're welcome. Great to be here, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: I'm really excited to have you here. And I wanna turn the clock back in time first because I as I mentioned, you did your undergraduate work at Michigan Technological University and got a double bachelor's degree when you were up there. And at some point in that time that you were working on those bachelor's degrees, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue with your education. Bring me back to that point. And why did you choose to go to graduate school?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:31]: So if I wanna go way far back, I graduated high school in 1997. I I always thought I wanted to be an engineer because I liked math. I liked science, and I was pretty good at both. So I went to Michigan Tech because they had a pretty good engineering program, gave me a good financial aid package. So I started my engineering program. It would be fall of 1997. And then as part of general education, I took an economics course. I had never taken economics in high school.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:02:53]: I took an economics course. It was principles of macroeconomics. I forget if this was 1997 or 1998. I thought it was fascinating. I really thought it was interesting how you could take pretty straightforward mathematical economic models and use them to make real world predictions about the complicated world around us. They explain things like unemployment, recessions, inflation, the business cycle, all the things that we care about as voters, as American citizens, as workers. So I decided to take a microarchaplics course and then I had transferred in several credits because I dual enrolled as a high school student. So that gave me some flexibility to pick up another bachelor degree without really extending my stay in college.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:03:35]: So since I liked economics quite a bit and it turns out there's a lot of commonalities in terms of of the techniques used in economics and the techniques used in engineering. And would it appear that way to be be that way on the surface, but economics involves, especially at the graduate level, lots of math, lots of calculus, lots of statistics, lots of the same techniques used as engineering. So the two majors really complemented each other. So then I became a senior in 2,001. I thought I wanted to get a job in the engineering field. I went on several job interviews, and I started to think like, no. This really isn't for me when I started learning about what a career in engineering would entail. It's for a lot of people just wasn't really for me.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:04:13]: And you might remember back in 2001, there was a recession, so the job market wasn't really that robust anyway. And then an economics professor during an office hours visit kind of played at a bug saying, no. You're pretty good at economics. You might think about a PhD program. And that bug in my ear kinda grew. And then I decided to take the GRE, apply to graduate schools, got accepted to Michigan State, and the rest is history.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:37]: Now you just mentioned that you went to Michigan State University for your PhD in economics, and every person goes through a process of looking at their options. And I'm sure you had had options out there. You applied to numerous schools to look at your options. Why did you choose to attend Michigan State University for your degree?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:04:58]: So a few reasons. 1st, I was close to home. I grew up in Michigan. I bounced around a lot as a kid, but always in Michigan. So Michigan State was maybe 3 hours from my hometown, which was nice. Michigan State was a a highly ranked program in the economics field. Depending on the ranking, it's anywhere between 25th 35th, something like that. So we're respectively ranked, which would make it easier to get a tenure track job, which was my goal.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:05:22]: The faculty were well published, heard good experiences from the graduate students I talked to when I visited campus, went thinking where I wanted to attend, and they gave a a generous fellowship package where, in my 1st year, I was able to serve as a teaching assistant. I always wanted to teach as as well as doing research, so teaching was really important to me. So that teaching assistantship my 1st year meant that I would hold office hours, grade papers, I worked at a help room. But that really laid the groundwork for me to teach my own independent class since my 3rd year and beyond in graduate school. And that teaching experience was really crucial to get my tenure track job here at the University of Michigan Flint. And it really hit the ground running because once I graduated from the PhD program, I wasn't teaching 1 class a semester like I was at graduate school. I was teaching 3 classes a semester while trying to work on research just like I was doing at graduate school. So graduate school is a lot of work, but once I got my full time job here, the workload totally increased.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:06:16]: So having that teaching experience really helped me hit the ground running. It really got my foot in the door to academia because prospective employers saw that I had the teaching experience. And the course evaluations are pretty good for my classes, so I thought that would help. Universities feel pretty comfortable that they were hiring a decent instructor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:34]: Now every person, as they go from one educational model to a new educational model, from one degree to another degree, you have to learn things. You have to figure out what is different, but also what is the same. And you did make that transition going from the bachelor's degree at Michigan Technological University to Michigan State University. And you made that transition from a bachelor's into the PhD, and you found success. You got through the program. You got your degree. And I guess as you think back to the education and the transition that you went through, what did you have to do as you transitioned into your PhD to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:07:21]: So a PhD program is just more much more intense than a bachelor degree program. So if a bachelor degree program is like drinking from a garden hose, a PhD program is like drinking from from a fire hose. So you just have to be ready for the amount of work, the amount of responsibility that comes from being in a graduate program. I would assume a master's program I've never been to in a dedicated master's program, but I'm guessing a master's program is somewhere between a bachelor and a PhD program. So it's kinda like anything else in life. The farther you go, the more the workload steps up. You just have to be ready for that and expect it. And then think through strategies of how to be successful.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:07:59]: So one strategy I found was and this was absolutely crucial for me, was to get to know my fellow classmates in graduate school because especially in the 1st year, we would work through lots of problem sets. Economics graduate school is a lot like an engineering program that we have these complicated problem sets that require lots of complicated mathematics to complete. And that's just much more feasible to do at a group setting rather than by yourself. And it's also good to have that support system too because graduate school can feel like a bit of a lonely experience. A PhD program is 4 plus years. It took me 5 years. You know, 6 years is not uncommon. And you're doing that in your twenties where everything feels like a lifetime at that point because you're in your twenties.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:08:38]: You're still pretty young. So it's really hard to see that light at the end of the tunnel, although looking back, 5 years feels like a blink of an eye. So it's just good to have that support system where everyone's in the same boat, everyone has the same goal, get through this graduate program so that we can, you know, fulfill our postgraduate goals. And a PhD program outfit is a 10 year track job, but in an economics PhD program, it's not always a 10 year track job. It could be a job at industry. That's pretty common. A job with the federal government. That's also very common for people who work for, say, the Federal Reserve or the Federal Trade Commission, things like that.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:09:12]: But everyone has the same common goal of, you know, get through the graduate program and in particular, get through the 1st year. Because of the PhD program, it's very common to have, like, a 1st year exam. So my 1st year exams are called the preliminary exams, so those lasted over the course of 2 days. It was 4 exams over 2 days. You had to pass those, we called them prelims, to continue on to the 2nd year. So everyone in the program had the same goal, pass the prelims. So that made it really crucial to have the support structure with the with the rest of the our classmates. And I think that's probably true for any other graduate program, including master's programs.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:09:48]: You'll get to know your students in the program. Most programs are probably cohorted. So get to know the students in your cohort because you're all in the same boat. You're working on the same assignments. You have very similar career goals. It's just very, very helpful to have that support system.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:03]: Now you completed that PhD. You became a professor of economics at the University of Michigan, Flint. And currently, as I mentioned, you are the interim dean for the College of Arts, Sciences, and Education. And I usually ask, when you think back to your graduate education, how did that prepare you for what you do? Now I will say that as a professor, it probably makes sense. You're teaching courses that you learned about, you you researched about, that you figured out along the way. But I guess now as an administrator working with many different programs, and you look back at your graduate education, how did your graduate education prepare you to be a interim dean for a college?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:10:46]: Yeah. That's an interesting question because I think the right answer is it really didn't. A PhD program prepares you to be a tenure track faculty member, in particular, a tenure track faculty member at a research university because the focus of a PhD program in a major research university like Michigan State is work on research, you know, published in top journals, which, of course, is important. But there's not as much of a focus on teaching, although that might have changed. It's been nearly 20 years since I've graduated my PhD program. So that's why I thought it was really crucial to get that teaching experience. And there's really no preparation to serve at a leadership capacity at academia. And I think that probably makes sense because to to serve at a leadership capacity, that's gonna be mid career at the earliest for academia because you have to get through the tenure process first to get tenure as an associate professor.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:11:35]: That's 6 years. To get tenure to get promoted to a full professor, that's probably another 6 years minimum after that. So we're talking a dozen years after that first tenure track hire that's pretty far removed from a PhD program. So I think it's kind of the lessons you learned along the way and those gradual steps up in the leadership process that prepares you to take on a dean position. So I began as department chair after I became an associate professor back in 2013. I served as department chair in economics for quite a while, probably close to a decade. And then the College of Arts and Sciences before education was brought on board was reorganized into larger departments. And then I later served as the department chair of Social Sciences and Humanities.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:12:17]: I think I began that in 2022. That I was associate dean for a semester that I became interim dean starting the fall of 2024. So I think, a lot of leadership is just a learning experience. You get more and more responsibility. You take on larger and larger leadership roles, and, you know, things just kind of progress from there. So I think a lot of it's mentorship too. I was fortunate to have some senior faculty mentor me when I was younger. People in the dean's office mentored me, very well when I was working my way up through the ranks.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:12:49]: So I think a lot of it is experience, mentorship, and just learning along the way. Being open to feedback, course correction, and just working with people, building relationships.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: Now I know that you've had an opportunity to work and to teach and to connect with many different graduate students over the years. And as you think about not only your own graduate school experience, but also the experience you've had as a faculty member, as a mentor to other graduate students, and you think about success, what are some tips that you might offer to students, no matter what type of graduate degree that they are going into, that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:13:28]: So I've taught in the master's of public administration program ever since I started the university. I teach the quantitative methods class. I first taught it in winter of 2008. I've even scheduled to teach it in the winter 2025 semester despite me being the interim dean. So I've worked with a lot of masters of public administration students during my time here at University of Michigan Flint as well as being a great a former graduate student myself. So So like we talked about earlier, a big tip is make friends with your fellow classmates. You're all in the same boat working on the same assignments. Collaboration is just makes life so much easier for you rather than trying to do things alone.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:14:05]: I know that's become challenging, in the post COVID world where maybe things are more online. You know, people maybe still are a little bit more isolated than what they were before COVID, but somehow it's just really important to connect with your fellow classmates and also connect with your professors. As professors, we're here to help. We have office hours. Those are designed for students to drop in with questions. It's always crucial for students in quantitative methods class to drop in sooner rather than a little later if they have questions because in a subject like statistics, if you start to fall behind, it's really easy to fall behind quickly if you don't get help right away. So we as professors, you know, we're here to help. That's why we have office hours.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:14:45]: That's why we have our email address on the syllabus. We like helping students. That's why we got to the profession in the 1st place. That's why I wanted to get into academia rather than a job in industry either as an engineer or as a professional economist. So just being willing to talk to your fellow students, talk to your professors, don't be afraid to ask questions. We really are here to help. I've always taught quantitative based class. I've never taught a class that's required a lot of writing, that's required a lot of term papers, but those classes exist, of course.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:15:16]: So if you have a big project that's due at the end of the semester, it's really important to start that right away. Don't push things off to the last minute because that's how you get overwhelmed. So a semester is 14 weeks long. 14 weeks sounds like a long time, but once the semester gets rolling, it'll be week 13, week 14 before we know. So in addition to being a dean, I also like to long distance run as a hobby. I've run numerous half marathons. I've even run a few full marathons. And how do you run a full marathon? Well, it's just one step at a time.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:15:46]: You just have to break it down to 1 mile at a time. Because if you just start thinking about the full 26 miles, you'll just start to get totally overwhelmed. And I think that's a good metaphor for graduate school or a graduate class as well. To You start thinking about the 30 page short paper you have to write. It's gonna seem overwhelming. But if you start breaking it breaking it down into steps, what's my topic? What's my abstract? What's my introduction? What's my outline? What's the conclusion I'm reaching? So you start to break it down into steps and you work on it step by step. All of a sudden, that marathon feels pretty doable. So it's really important to stay on top of things, begin sooner rather than later, don't procrastinate, And just break things down into bite sized chunks.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:27]: I love that advice, and it is definitely a good metaphor for finding success. So I really appreciate you sharing that, and I appreciate all that you shared in the journey that you went on. Thank you so much for being here today, and I wish you the best.

Dr. Chris Douglas [00:16:41]: Oh, you're welcome. It's great talking with you, Chris, and I'm sure I'll see you around campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:45]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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The journey through graduate school is multifaceted, filled with challenges, growth, and incredible learning opportunities. In a recent episode of Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Dr. Sapna Thwaite, Vice Provost for Academic Affairs at the University of Michigan Flint, to discuss her journey and offer invaluable advice for students. Here’s a deep dive into the insights they shared.

The Birth of a Calling: Choosing Graduate School Dr. Thwaite’s passion for psychology and education was sparked during her undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan. Initially drawn to English for her love of reading and writing, it was a developmental psychology class under Dr. Scott Harris that truly inspired her. This powerful mentorship and hands-on research experience solidified her resolve to pursue a PhD in educational psychology at Michigan State University.

Choosing the right graduate program involves self-reflection and research. Dr. Thwaite emphasized the importance of aligning your research interests with the strengths of the institution. Staying close to home was another factor for her, but it was the fit with Michigan State’s academic environment that ultimately guided her decision.

Transitioning and Finding Success in Graduate School Every academic transition comes with its challenges. For Dr. Thwaite, moving from a structured undergraduate environment to the flexible yet demanding world of graduate studies required adjustments. She noted the importance of time management and finding supportive mentors. "Lean into uncertainty," she advised, recognizing that new experiences and diverse interactions are key to growth.

Dr. Thwaite highlighted that mentorship is not restricted to one individual. Instead, she encouraged students to seek mentorship from multiple sources, including faculty and peers. Embracing a multi-mentor model allowed her to integrate diverse perspectives and cultivate a robust professional identity.

Applying Educational Psychology to Real-World Roles Dr. Thwaite’s expertise in educational psychology not only shaped her academic path but also her approach as Vice Provost. She noted the centrality of lifelong learning and development in any professional field. Creating opportunities for faculty and staff professional development is a priority for her, ensuring that everyone at the university continues to grow and excel.

In her current role, she applies theoretical knowledge to practice by fostering an inclusive, dynamic environment. Recognizing diverse identities and backgrounds as critical components of a cohesive academic community, she aims to bring out the best in everyone by emphasizing self-awareness and mutual respect.

Tips for Graduate School Success Success in graduate school requires stepping outside of your comfort zone and engaging with the community. Dr. Thwaite’s advice is particularly relevant for those entering graduate programs:

1. Embrace Uncertainty:

Lean into the unknown and take initiative to explore new areas. 2. Seek Multiple Mentors:

Connect with faculty, peers, and professionals who offer different perspectives. 3. Be Patient and Reflective:

Give yourself time to adjust and self-reflect on your progress and decisions. 4. Engage Actively:

Join groups, clubs, and attend office hours to build a supportive network.

Navigating graduate school is a transformative journey. As Dr. Thwaite articulates through her experiences, every step, whether smooth or challenging, contributes to the development of a well-rounded, successful academic and professional life. For those contemplating further education, or already on this path, her insights serve as a valuable guide.

For more insights on how to successfully navigate graduate school, stay tuned to Victor's in Grad School and explore the range of programs offered at the University of Michigan Flint.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we are on a journey together, and I love being able to walk with you on this path that you're on. I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. You might be at the very beginning just starting to think about graduate school, just starting to look at schools or programs, thinking to yourself, what do I have to do to get to that next step? Or maybe you've already applied or gotten accepted. You could even be in a program right now. No matter where you are, you are on a journey working on your education, working on your future career trajectory and goals, the vision that you have for yourself, And this show is here to be able to help you along that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have done different things in their own career, but also have gone through graduate school and have been successful. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about giving you some tips, some hints, some insights, some things that you could put into your own toolbox that'll help you to find success in that graduate school journey. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Sumna Thwaite is with us today, and doctor Thwaite is the vice provost for academic affairs at the University of Michigan Flint. She's also been a long time faculty member at the University of Michigan Flint in the College of Education. And really excited to be able to have her here today to talk about her own experience and to introduce her to you. Sapna, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:01:50]: Thank you so much, Chris. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Well, I love being able to talk to you about this journey that you went on as a student that led you to where you are today. So I'd love to turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan. And at some point during that journey, you had an inkling that you were gonna go on. So there was a little bit of time between your undergraduate degree and when you went to get your PhD. So either during your undergraduate days or early in your career, you chose you identified that there was something, something that was drawing you back in to get that additional degree. Talk to me about that. Bring me back to that point where you just started thinking about graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:43]: What made you decide that going back to graduate school was what you wanted to do?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:02:47]: So when I was an undergraduate student, I decided very early on that I wanted to major in psychology, and I wanted to major in English. My reasons for

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:02:51]: wanting to psychology. And I wanted to major in English. My reasons for wanting to major in English were not practical in any way. It was because I love to read, and I also wanted to cultivate my writing skills. My interest in psychology was because I felt like psychology was perhaps a calling for me. I really enjoy my interactions with people, understanding human behavior, and understanding the way that people think. I also have always loved being around children, and I've loved being around teenagers and kind of learning about what motivates them and how they grow and they develop. And so when I was in my junior year of college, I took a psychology class that was focused on development, human development, and the professor was particularly inspiring, doctor Scott Harris.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:03:40]: I'm really happy to say that I'm still able to maintain contact with him all these years. But, as I sat in his lecture hall, I was just completely mesmerized with what he had to share, his insights about life. And it made me realize that I wanted to aspire towards a similar role in the future. And so I finally kinda conjured up the courage to go up to him after class to have a conversation with him, which was a really big deal, in a lecture hall of 200 students. And he somehow remembered my face. And later on, I was roaming through the psychology offices looking for a particular professor, not him, And he stopped me in the hallway and asked me if I wanted to explore the possibility of being one of his research assistants and for a whopping $6 an hour. And I was so excited because this is a person who I really idolized, I guess you could say, really looked up to, and I thought I had a lot of information that I could learn from him. So as I started to work with him, I realized I really wanted to go to graduate school.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:04:40]: So I was in my junior year and he was basically basically a really powerful mentor who helped me then decide and shape my next steps.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:47]: So as you were starting to think of those next steps, and you ended up deciding to go to Michigan State University to work on a PhD in educational psychology, every person goes through a different process as they are looking at different programs, looking at different institutions. Talk to me about what you did to be able to not only look at all of the options that were available to you, but also that led you to ultimately decide that Michigan State University's PhD in educational psychology was the right one for you?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:05:23]: Okay. So when I was a junior in undergrad, I was leaning more towards pursuing a PhD in developmental psychology, and I was very eager to gain research experience because I knew that I was aspiring towards a research related, degree. And so one of the things that I did that I would really strongly recommend anybody do, while they're perhaps an undergraduate student, is I volunteered to work on a research project, and that had to do with infant cognition. I was making smiley faces at babies and seeing how they reacted to me. I also participated in the research experience with the professor I just mentioned to you earlier, doctor Paris. That was a paid $6 an hour job, and it involved doing research in a school setting. So I basically tried to expose myself to research as much as I could as an undergraduate student and realized at that point that I was really more interested in learning about learning and development in educational settings. And so that's what made me deviate from that original idea of becoming a developmental psychologist and go towards ed psych.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:06:25]: I did work with that particular professor, and this really speaks to the power of mentors, to get some suggestions about possibilities. And I had really wanted to stay closer to home, though I did apply to a wide range of PhD programs. But the one thing that was emphasized to me was making sure that there was a good fit between the graduate school that you are applying to and your own research interests. So I had cultivated my research interests a little bit, as an undergraduate student. No. I had not presented it or, you know, written any papers, but I did have a sense as to where I wanted to go. So actually, I did not even have a gap between my undergrad and my PhD program. The I was advised for the kind of work that I wanted to do that going into kind of more of a straight shot doctoral program would allow one to get the equivalent of a master's degree along the way.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:07:16]: And so if you decide after taking your comprehensive exams, I think that's the point where that you no longer wanna continue on in the doctoral program, you can exit with a master's. So I had an out potentially, but and and and Michigan State University happened to have a faculty member whose work resonated with me because he was a developmental psychologist in education, which is how I was starting to kind of identify myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:40]: Every time that you go into a new type of degree, there are transitions. You go from high school to get your bachelor's, from bachelor's into a a master's or PhD program. At every level, the way that you're being taught is a little bit different, the expectations are different, and what you have to do to find success is going to be a little bit different. Talk to me about those transitions for yourself. As you went from the University of Michigan as a undergraduate student into that master's, doctorate program at Michigan State University, what did you have to do as you're going through that transition to find success? But also, what did you have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout the entire time in that program?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:08:29]: That is a really good question. So I identify as being a creature of habit. I'm very into routines and rituals, and I like being in comfortable settings, surrounded by people who I know. So for me, that transition from undergrad to grad school was a big, big leap. I was also only 22. My brother said to me my older brother said to me, you're making a mistake. You should take some time off and work. Do something else.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:08:54]: Get a research position. Do something to gain experience. But I was very focused on going to Michigan State because I had gotten in and I received a really good opportunity to do research there with a professor who I really, really was excited to work with. And so it seemed like the right thing to make that step. But the one thing that I had to do as I made that transition is really lean into uncertainty because this was the first time that I was moving into a territory that I really didn't know a lot about. You know, going to college, I had a lot of people around me who went to college. But going into a doctoral program in a field that I didn't have anyone around me who I could turn to, I didn't have but they'd accept with the exception of that faculty member who was a really powerful mentor for me in undergrad, I didn't have any friends or any family who had decided to pursue a doctorate in education or psychology. So I was really, like, having to lean into the uncertainty and be patient with myself and really just allow that transition to occur.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:09:57]: That 1st year was very bumpy for me, partially because I was really encountering a lot of different doctoral students with very different professional backgrounds and very different educational backgrounds than me. Some of them had been teachers. Some of them had been working for foundations. Some of them had been out in the field in other ways. And, you know, I was really one of the youngest ones there and probably one of the least experienced. But I was coming in with a psychology background, and that was really what my focus was, being a psychologist in education. And so I learned over time, the value of being able to embrace your own identity, your own emerging professional identity, but also embracing those of others and realizing there's a reason why we're all there together, to learn from each other. And it took me probably a good year before I was able to figure that piece out.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:10:44]: But it was it was not an easy transition in the beginning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:47]: You know, we always have to be able to do what we can to be able to learn from those pieces and then take those pieces to be able to make those adjustments. What were some of the initial adjustments that you had to make as you were learning that would that helped you as you went further and you got that experience under your belt?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:11:05]: I think one of the things was my undergraduate experience was a little bit more structured. Graduate school is less structured in some ways. Most of the courses occur from 4 to 7 PM. And then finding ways to manage your time during the day, I was doing research. I was also taking courses. I was also doing my own independent research projects, and I also, dabbled with a few teaching assignments in between. So, learning how to manage my time was a really big piece. And luckily, that was not something too difficult for me because I tend to be very structured in the way that I approach my daily life.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:11:36]: The other piece was finding those people who I could connect to, and in some ways, not just relying on finding one mentor, which I had in undergrad, but looking to take, in some ways, and this is gonna sound funny, but it it will make sense as I explain it, taking bits and pieces of the people around me and kind of starting to formulate that sense of self that I wanted to have in the future, that professional self that I was aspiring towards. So, for example, later on, as I got into my dissertation, on my dissertation committee, one of the faculty was incredibly creative and an out of the box thinker. I was not as creative. And so I took bits and pieces of what I learned from him and tried to instill a little bit more creativity in the work that I was doing. I had a colleague who had a vast knowledge of literacy practices and what my dissertation topic was gonna draw upon literacy. I took a lot of her knowledge and expertise, and that guided me to learn in different areas that I did not know a lot about. So realizing that that mentor does not just come in the shape of 1 person, but that there are bits and pieces of people around you that you can take that can help you start forming your own identity and your own future professional self. So I really give a lot of credit to those people that I interacted with, those faculty, but I had to seek them out.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:12:48]: And it didn't just involve taking classes with them or having them on a committee, but actually having conversations with them and learning about their own trajectories as a part of that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:56]: Now you mentioned that you are currently the vice provost for academic affairs, and that's after a number of other positions that you've had at the University of Michigan Flint. And your professional career has been at the University of Michigan Flint, so you have a long history here at our university. For a number of people, when they think they got a PhD, they're they're teaching, and it it makes sense how one thing leads to another. Talk to me about the things that you learned in that educational psychology doctorate program. How has what you learned in that program led you to the work that you're doing today as vice pros provost for academic affairs? And what do you draw from in regard to that degree on a daily basis that has helped you to be able to be successful in that position?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:13:46]: That's a great question. Okay. So as I reflect here for a moment, one of the things that I have recognized now as a vice provost and, you know, I've been at U of M Flint now for almost 25 years. One of the things that I've recognized is the centrality of learning and development, in our lives as humans and and in our professional lives in whatever we do, whether we are faculty, staff, scholars, administrators, whatever. That learning and development is a is a lifelong process. We are always learning. We are always developing and that we need to create opportunities, like, at least as a vice provost, one of the things that I feel very strongly about is creating opportunities for our faculty and staff to be able to learn and develop. One of my major areas of focus next semester is professional development of all kinds, professional development for faculty and staff related to students and their sense of belonging, professional development related to research, making the transition from being an associate professor to a full professor, learning how to become a leader.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:14:47]: So all of those things that were really central to my schooling and my experience as an educational psychology doctoral student definitely apply in this day in the work that I'm doing. The other piece probably more so influenced me probably more so as a professor than maybe as a vice provost is the importance of bridging theory with practice. So we learned a lot of really valuable theoretical lenses when we were grad students, but then being able to apply it in a practical setting in a way that students can understand and that they can take with them, like helping our students cultivate the toolboxes they need to be successful in their professional careers is another piece that I learned that I would apply to my life as a faculty and scholar at U of M Flint. And then the third thing that just readily comes to mind is the lens of identity. Now that was something that I started to learn more about as a graduate student. We talked a lot about Sonia Nieto's work and how a teacher needs to delve into their own identity before they try to understand the identities of their students. So I took those principles with me into my teaching as an educational psychology professor, but even as a vice provost, that having a sense of self awareness, a really acute sense of self awareness when you're avail when you are aware of what your own strengths and weaknesses are, and being able to bring that knowledge of yourself into your interactions with people you work with. So for instance, you know, understanding identities of the people around you and what they bring to the picture, to me, that's really, really important, and respecting those identities.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:16:22]: So, like, one of the things that I've realized through grad school into my professional career is a value of engaging with individuals who have very diverse identities and backgrounds, and seeing how those different individuals fit together. But, like, we're we are all pieces of a jigsaw puzzle that fit together to form this coherent whole. So you need faculty. You need staff. You need staff doing a lot of different things. You need administrators. I would never put any value on one of those roles more than the other because I think we're all essential pieces that need to be there to work together. Does that make sense?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:59]: It does make sense. I I really appreciate you sharing that. Now you just have given a lot of piece of advice in regards to the things that you've learned along the way. As you think about students, whether they're going and getting a master's or doctor degree in educational psychology, or if they're a physical therapy student or a medical student, it doesn't really matter in that regard. As you think about a student going into graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:17:28]: Tips for students going into graduate school or students okay. So things to think about while they're in their grad school experience. Okay. So I have a couple of things that I'm thinking of. The main thing is, perhaps cliche in some ways, but being able to step outside of your comfort zone, I think, is really important. So as I mentioned to you earlier, I've always been a creature of habit. I walked into this doctoral program not really knowing what I was getting into. There was a steep learning curve involved.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:17:56]: I went through a whole 1st year of, in some degree of emotional turmoil, wondering if I had made the right choice. Should I have gone to a psychology doctorate program instead of an educational psychology doctorate program? Did I fit in? But the one way to kind of manage that type of transition is to lean into it, step out of your comfort zone, and also expose yourself to as many different people as you can, not just having professors in classes, but actually taking time to go in and talk to people during office hours, joining groups on campus. Like, if there's a learning community, focus on a topic that's interesting to you or a book club or any other kind of extracurricular activity, just really leaning into that. Now I know it's a lot easier for me to say that I'm more extroverted by nature. I know for some people who are more introverted, it might be a little bit harder to have to be around people. You know, grad school does involve a lot of being around people, and you do need time to kinda shut down at the end of the day because there is a lot going on. But I think being exposed to people, being exposed to different perspectives, and then taking bits and pieces from what you're learning from different people to start formulating where you wanna go and what you want your future self to look like. That is an active process.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:19:10]: It is not a process that just happens passively. So you have to kinda lean into it a little bit. That would be my, probably best piece of advice. Also being patient with yourself is really important and acknowledging that transitions are not easy, and that you might take some time questioning why you made the decision that you made or wondering if you made the right decision, but taking a little bit of time to thoughtfully decide and then conclude whether that step was the right step to take. Because if I had made a rash decision, my trajectory might have changed pretty dramatically. But what I've realized over time is that transitions haven't come easy to me, and I always need to give myself at least a year to kinda grow into anything. And that still holds true for me now even as a vice provost. I feel very differently now than I did about a year ago.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:53]: And sometimes giving yourself that amount of time is hard when you're in a short program, and you have to kind of find ways to amplify that or find other mentors or people that can help you to amplify and expedite that process for yourself to be able to jump right in. And as you said, depending on the type of person that you are, sometimes that may not be as easy as it may be for other students. So I really appreciate you sharing that.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:20:22]: Could I add one quick thing also? As a young doctoral student, the other thing that, I didn't mention that is really important to mention is that some of those mentors were actually peers of mine. So they weren't just professors. They were also peers. They were peers in my program who had had a vast variety of life experience. And being able to really learn from them was very important as well. So it's not just learning from your faculty, but also learning from your peers and and valuing the different professional backgrounds that they bring to their doctoral experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:52]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, sharing your journey, sharing the things that you've learned as well as things that may have been a little bit harder than not. So I really appreciate you sharing that today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Sapna Thwaite [00:21:06]: Thank you so much. Thank you for this opportunity. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is often seen as the next big leap in one's educational and professional journey. Whether you're considering law school, a PhD, or another advanced degree, the path ahead can seem both exciting and daunting. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Kim Saks, a professor at the University of Michigan Flint, shared her personal experiences and invaluable advice for successfully navigating graduate school. Here's a comprehensive summary of her insights, from making crucial decisions to leveraging opportunities for future success.

Deciding to Take the Leap For many students, the transition from undergraduate studies to graduate school represents a significant turning point. Dr. Saks emphasized the importance of self-reflection in this process. "You have to ask yourself why you want to pursue a graduate degree," she noted. For her, the journey began at Eastern Michigan University, where her dual interests in political science and French led her to consider both law school and a master's in public administration.

After weighing her options and considering her passion for the legal field, Dr. Saks opted for law school. "I enjoyed reading cases and synthesizing them," she explained. Importantly, financial considerations like scholarships also played a crucial role in her decision to attend the University of Detroit Mercy Law School.

Navigating the Graduate School Experience Different graduate programs come with unique challenges. For Dr. Saks, transitioning from law school to a PhD program in political science was itself a learning curve. She highlighted two key strategies for managing these transitions: maintaining a strong support system and continuously honing academic skills like reading.

"Reading is like exercise," Dr. Saks advised, emphasizing the need to keep intellectual stamina strong. Whether it's books or long articles, maintaining a habit of reading can make the academic transition smoother.

The Importance of a Support System One essential piece of advice that Dr. Saks offered was the importance of having a reliable support system. "Make sure you have those conversations with your support network about what to expect," she suggested. From family responsibilities to social commitments, having understanding and supportive people around you can make a significant difference.

Moreover, regular check-ins with your support network can help everyone stay on the same page. This becomes especially important when the rigors of graduate school start taking a toll, mentally or physically.

Seizing Opportunities Graduate school is more than just coursework; it's a gateway to numerous opportunities that can shape your career. Dr. Saks urged students to take advantage of the various opportunities that come their way, including research projects, internships, and conferences. These experiences often serve as stepping stones for future professional success.

In particular, Dr. Saks emphasized the value of experiential learning. "Take risks, even if it's outside traditional academic work," she advised. Such experiences not only enrich your resume but also provide invaluable networking opportunities and practical know-how.

Conclusion: The Power of Persistence Dr. Kim Saks' journey through law school and her subsequent PhD is a testament to the power of persistence and the benefits of a well-thought-out plan. From understanding your motivations to leveraging available opportunities, these strategies can help any aspiring graduate student navigate their path more effectively.

Remember, the journey through graduate school is a marathon, not a sprint. Equip yourself with the right tools and support systems, seize opportunities as they come, and keep your end goals in sight. The experience is demanding, but the rewards—in terms of personal and professional growth—are well worth the effort.

For those considering further education, or already embarking on this journey, Dr. Saks' advice provides a valuable roadmap. Take it to heart, and you’ll not only survive but thrive in your graduate school experience.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. This podcast allows for you an opportunity to be able to look under the surface, to be able to learn from other people, and to be able to learn more about what it takes to find success in graduate school. This is definitely a journey. You may just be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about graduate school. You might be post application where you're waiting on that application decision, or maybe you got your decision already, and now you know where you've been admitted to and you're making that decision of where to go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: No matter where you are, this show is here to be able to help you to be able to find success and find success sooner as you go through this journey for yourself. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that can walk you through what they learned along the way to help you to be able to maybe miss some of those stumbling blocks that they might have hit, but also to add some add some tools to your own toolbox that'll make it even easier for you as you go through this as well. This week, we got another great guest with us. Dr. Kimberly Sachs is with us today, and doctor Sachs is a professor at the University of Michigan Flint. She's the program director for our master's in public administration program, but also works in political science. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her about her own experience and for her to share some of that journey with you. Doctor Sachs, thanks so much for being here with us today.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:02:03]: Thank you for having me. I'm pretty excited about this. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. Well, one of the first things that I always love doing is I love turning the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. And as you were going through that educational journey for yourself and getting that bachelor's degree in political science and French, at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision to go to law school. And I would love to go back to that point. And I wanna kind of hear what you were thinking in your head to be able to say to yourself, I wanna take that next step. Why did you decide you wanted to take that job and go to law school?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:02:49]: So at that point in time, I kind of had 2 paths in mind. 1 was, obviously, to go to law school. The other was to go and actually get a master's public administration degree, which is kind of ironic that I direct that program now, because I knew I wanted to work in public service in some capacity. I just didn't quite know which direction I wanted to go, whether it was in the legal sector or whether it was more of an administrative type role. Ultimately, because of some coursework I had towards the end of my degree, I really felt like the legal field was right for me, And I really enjoyed reading cases, synthesizing them, and it felt it just felt like the right path for me based on some coursework and some discussions with faculty that I had. And I even had looked into joint MPA JD degrees at the time, but figured I kinda wanted to focus on the law degree and not get too turned in different directions. So I always had contemplated that there might be further education after that, but never, never kind of anticipated the path that I ended up taking. So that was the decision.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:04:00]: And then I, I took the LSAT knowing that that dual path was still open to me and did well enough and had a good enough GPA that I had opportunities to go to law school. I had a scholarship to go to University of Detroit Mercy, and so I took advantage of that and and went there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:17]: Well, that was gonna be my next question, and and maybe it was the scholarship alone. But every person goes through a process of being able to identify where that next step is. You chose to go to the University of Detroit Mercy Law School. And talk to me about that decision process for yourself and what were some of the things that you were primarily looking for, and what would the what the ultimate decision making was that led you to decide to study at the University of Detroit Mercy?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:04:46]: So the scholarship helped, but it wasn't the only thing. Because UDM is a private school, so the tuition is higher. So a scholarship will help make it more affordable, but, already, you're starting with a higher ticket price at at that point. So I did have to weigh my options, although the scholarship helped quite a bit. But one of the things that I was very, very adamant about was that the school that I picked had to be keenly invested in public service. And University of Detroit Mercy is a Jesuit school, and the Jesuit tradition is very much invested in public service. And the public sector law, they have a variety of clinics that are open to the public, and I was able to take advantage of a fellowship to work at a nonprofit over the summer where I would not have normally gotten paid, and I personally would not have been able to take that hit to do an unpaid internship, but they had a program where they paid people to go do these, I guess, it's externship at that point. And I got paid for it despite the the nonprofit not being able to pay me, but they worked out these fellowships, that they fundraise for, and this was really part of their ethos.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:05:59]: So a big part of what drew me was that they focused on these opportunities that were really grounded in public service. And so that for me was kind of a turning point in my decision making.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:11]: Now you went to law school, you finished law school, and you also decided after working for a number of years to continue your education, and not everybody will do that. I I've worked with a number of students that go through law school and know what they go through in law school to know that for some students, that's enough. But for you, you made a decision that you wanted to continue on into a PhD program in political science. Talk to me about that. What made you decide that it was time to go back to school after working for a number of years with your law degree?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:06:51]: So I think my mother lives in perpetual fear that I'm gonna go back to school again even now. Another room, another degree, but I don't I don't plan on it anytime soon. But I practice for a while, and I love the law. I really do. I I teach classes on the law. My legal education is very much being used in what I do on a day to day basis. I practice for a while in a private firm. I did not like the act of billing my time.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:07:17]: That is not something that I am very good at. It's not necessarily time management. It's literally keeping track of what I've done. It just didn't suit me very well. So I went to work in house at Wayne State in their Office of Equal Opportunity, and I went from a very high pressure environment to a fairly, for me, low pressure environment. And I started getting a little antsy. And I knew that I had always wanted to teach, and I thought that would just be down the road, like, as a kind of one off adjunct experience. But I said, you know, I'm here now.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:07:52]: I can take classes for free up to a certain level per semester or per year. Why don't I test this out and see how it goes? And if I end up stopping out at a master's, so be it. You know? So I started doing it, and I absolutely loved it. And because I had the JD at the time, I was still able to adjunct elsewhere because that's a terminal degree, and so I could be hired out elsewhere and teach. And I absolutely fell in love with teaching. And I knew at that point that this was the path that I wanted to go down. I also subsequently fell in love with research too, and really love the idea of being able to explore questions using data and using experiments and things of that nature in ways that you don't get to do until you're at that level and being able to direct your own research. And so I really enjoyed it.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:08:47]: And and one of my favorite things about what I do now is trying to bring those experiences to my students, whether they're master students or undergraduate students, to get them involved in that process so that they understand what research is like and what each step of the process might look like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:04]: Now in every transition that you go through, whether it be from undergraduate to law school or undergraduate to another type of graduate degree, whatever it may be, there are transitions that you go through. And from one level of education to the next level of education is very different than one another. Going from bachelor's to law school is a completely different type of learning. Going from law school to a PhD, Different type of learning. And there's different expectations from your faculty, and there's different expectations from what you are hoping to take out of those experiences and that and the end goals as well. Now you were successful in going through law school, getting your doctorate degree, continuing on. As you think back to those transitions that you went through, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experiences?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:10:03]: So the first thing I will say is make sure you have a support system around you. The same could be said of life in general, but when you're going to take on these new endeavors, make sure others are on board with what they're gonna need to do to support you. And that just means having a conversation about what things are gonna look like moving forward. Because whether it's friends or family, you might not be able to do certain things that you were able to do before as frequently, or you might need their help in something. Especially if you have kids or other responsibilities, you might need people to step in. And so having those conversations and revisiting those conversations, not just thinking you can have them, you know, a week before school starts and then that's it, you're good for the rest of your time in whatever program you're in, kind of making it a point to check-in on those conversations is really good. I will also say every transition I have ever made like this, a big transition, I have always had that moment of, I jump in and I get ready, and then I'm like, oh my god. What did I just do? What did I just get myself in to? I have a little bit of a freak out moment.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:11:09]: And I tell all of my MPA students, this especially, because they're gonna have a moment when they're like, what did I get myself into? And I tell them, I'll come find me because we'll walk through it together. We'll sit through it. We'll figure out, you know, if there's a real issue or if you're just kind of having a culture shock because a lot of times, that's what it is. It's a culture shock. I distinctly remember having one when I started law school. I had one during my law school orientation, and then I had one when I went to grad school. And I remember, my first class, all of a sudden, everybody seemed to understand the statistics right away that were in this one article. And I thought, oh my god.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:11:45]: Am I going to have to know this right off the bat? Because I don't. And I just was like, I must be the dumbest person in this room. And, of course, I wasn't. It was just I hadn't taken the same classes that these other people had taken yet, but I had to put that into perspective. And sometimes you need to have those perspective moments where you're like, okay. It's just me kind of getting my grounding. I need to take a breath. I need to really see my way through this because most of the time, it's just the culture shock of getting into a new thing.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:12:15]: And with my students, a lot of times, we'll sit down in that 1st semester, in that 1st year, and by the time they've graduated, they're like, I you told me I was gonna have that moment. I had it. I got over it. And then I went on and it became like secondhand to me, and it was smooth sailing from there out. And most of the time, it's that culture shock moment where you're like, how am I going to do all of this? I hate the metaphor so much, but it is like learning to ride a bike because you do learn to put it and fit it into your life in a different way. Your life will change just the way you live your life, your daily mechanics of things, because you have to fit things in in a different way. And that's gonna look different from your undergrad to your grad, or for me, even from law school to grad school, when I fit in my reading and my writing time was completely different, especially once I had kids in grad school. So, you know, having to figure out those quiet times was completely different post kids.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:13:11]: So you have to kind of figure out how it fits into your life, and then you'll kind of calm down a bit and focus on the work and not so much how it works in your life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:20]: You know, those are great points because I think you're completely right. You do change as you go through graduate school. And I love the point that you made in regard to checking back in with your support system because many times, your support system has no clue what you're going through, and they don't know how to support you. So if you don't reach out to them and let them know what you're going through and let them know what kind of support that you need, they're not going to be able to give it to you. So it is so important, as doctor Sacks just said, to have conversations upfront about what you anticipate, but also let people understand the reality of the situation once you get into your graduate program and you start to see what that reality is, whether it's hitting that wall right at the law school orientation where you're looking at stats, and you're saying, I have no clue what I'm getting myself into, versus getting into those first couple classes where you might be called on, and you're having to stand up, and and you're having to be an expert in your own right about what you've just read. Unless the people around you, the support people, have gone through the same type of degree, they're not going to understand it. And even if they went through it, it's not the same situation. It may not be the same school, and it's definitely probably not the same professors.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:48]: So that meaning being said, keep the conversation going. Don't ice people out. Let people back in. Let people know what you're going through. They're going to appreciate it, and you're gonna appreciate it in the end. Doctor. Sacks, as you mentioned, you're a professor now at the University of Michigan Flint, and you work with students not only in the master of public administration program, but you're working with undergraduate students too. And I guess as you look back at your own experiences, but also as you're working with graduate students or students that are looking at possibly going to graduate school in the future, what are some tips that you might offer to other individuals that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be for law school or a PhD or something completely different that could help them find success sooner?

Dr. Kim Saks [00:15:36]: So one of the things I will say is keep reading because reading really is like exercise. If you stop doing it at any point in time, it's gonna be harder to build back up. And no matter what graduate program you go into, it does not matter. You're going to be reading a lot. And so if you're trying to go from 0 to a100 your 1st day of classes or your 1st week of classes, that's gonna be really hard. So I don't care what you read. It should be books or long form articles or those types of things, but read. Keep that stamina up for reading and really make sure that you're not putting yourself in a position where you're both having to adjust to a new program and adjust to back to that skill at the same time.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:16:19]: But also kind of understand what it is you wanna get out of a degree. I also am the pre law adviser for the University of Michigan Flint, and a lot of times students come to me and say, I wanna go to law school. And when I ask why, which is always my my second question, they don't have the answer for it. They've either been told they should, or they've been given answers they see on the media. But you really need to ask your why early and often because it may change. But think about the why and what you expect to get out of it and keep that really burning bright in the background while you're doing the work for a couple of reasons. One is when things are tough, you're gonna look at that and be like, okay. That's the goal.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:17:01]: But the other thing that will help you do is not miss out on opportunities along the way. You know, whether your program's entirely online or whether it's in person or a mix of both, there are going to be opportunities that come your way that are outside of the traditional class experience, and you should take advantage of those. One of the things that I find students often regretting is not doing something. Right? Not doing this or not doing that or not taking advantage of this. I think that students who find themselves taking advantage of some of the opportunities that they have, whether it's at the undergraduate or graduate level, find their experiences much more meaningful, and also find their degree to feel more valuable in that sense. So in our program, we have a lot of people who will end up doing independent studies so that they can work on projects with a nonprofit or another organization that are kind of focused projects that are kind of part academic, part practical. And students who do that type of thing, it might be different. It's kind of out of the norm.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:18:08]: And so it's, it's taking a little bit of risk, But quite often, those are the things that change a career trajectory. Right? Those are the things that give you experience, create a portfolio piece, and give you a lot of networking. And so it's risk, but it's also a lot of reward. And even if nothing concretely comes out of it, like a job offer or something, you have this experience now that when you're on a job interview for the next thing coming down the pipe, you now can say, I've done x, y, or z, and here's the proof of that. Here's what I've done. Here's what I experienced. Here are the challenges I faced. Here are the resource constraints, and that's invaluable to have.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:18:49]: So take advantage of those things. Go to conferences. There's a lot of conferences on any campus that are available to students. Usually, they're they're low cost or free if you can participate in that. I know we have a research conference here on campus every year. So put something together for the research conference, put it on a poster, or do a presentation. It is a great experience to have. It's really something good to have on your resume, but it's also just the experience of doing it is something really important to have kind of in your in your tool belt as you move forward in your career.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:19:23]: No matter what it is, you're always going to have to be presenting. You're always going to have to be reading, and you're always gonna have to be writing at some level. And so working on those skills, honing those skills in different capacities is going to be important as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:38]: You know, I always tell graduate students that as you go through this graduate school experience, you're only there for a limited amount of time. It may seem like it is a huge amount of time as you're stepping into that first class. But by the end, you're gonna look back and say, where did it go? It went by so fast. And the most important thing that I tend to tell every graduate student is, say yes more than you say no. Take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. Don't wait and say, I'll wait for the next one. Because the next one might not come. So if you have a professor like Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Sacks, that's offering you an opportunity to do research, or someone that comes to you and says, I have an opportunity for you to volunteer or to do an internship or to get this type of experience, Take advantage of that because all of those things that you're going to be doing along the way are going to build upon each other and are going to give you the skills, the knowledge, and more that are gonna help you to be the professional that you want to become in the future. Well, doctor Sacks, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for being here, and for working with all of our undergraduate and graduate students here at the University of Michigan Flint as they are working to create the next step for themselves. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Kim Saks [00:21:07]: Thank you for helping me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:09]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a unique journey that demands both resilience and strategic planning. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School" podcast, Michelle Gordon-Releford shared her personal experiences and insights on how to navigate the complexities of graduate education successfully. As a double master's degree holder from the University of Michigan Flint, Michelle’s journey offers invaluable lessons for prospective and current graduate students alike.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Michelle’s decision to pursue graduate education was influenced by a promise to a sorority sister who emphasized the importance of advanced degrees for career prospects. Initially uncertain about pursuing further education, Michelle finally decided that obtaining a graduate degree was the next logical step. This decision demonstrates the importance of mentorship and peer advice in shaping academic and career paths.

Choosing the Right Program and Institution

For Michelle, choosing the University of Michigan Flint was driven by practical considerations and the availability of strong support systems. She highlighted the importance of familial and community support while pursuing higher education. When selecting a graduate program, Michelle emphasized the need to research various programs and consider how they align with your career goals. Her pivot from psychology to health science education was motivated by her passion for community involvement and making tangible impacts.

Transitioning to Graduate School

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school poses unique challenges. Michelle stressed the importance of finding a "graduate school family" to help navigate these hurdles. Building a support system among your peers can provide both emotional and academic support. She recounted her own experiences of juggling graduate studies while managing her husband's cancer treatment, emphasizing the invaluable role her classmates and professors played in her success.

Building Relationships

One of the critical pieces of advice Michelle offered was to cultivate strong relationships with faculty members and peers. These relationships not only provide immediate support but can also turn into professional networks that benefit you long after graduation. Faculty members can become mentors and advisors, offering guidance and opportunities that you might not otherwise encounter.

Applying Graduate Education in the Professional World

Michelle’s diverse career experiences—as a community outreach manager and in other roles—showcase how a graduate degree can be applied in various professional contexts. Courses and experiences in her graduate program heightened her awareness about community disparities and prepared her to address these issues effectively. Her degree gave her the skills to conduct meaningful community engagement and to be an advocate for equity.

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students

Michelle concluded with actionable tips for prospective graduate students. She emphasized the importance of utilizing campus resources, particularly building a relationship with the library staff. Michelle also stressed the significance of maintaining open communication with family, friends, and professors. Their support can help alleviate some of the pressures of graduate school.

Michelle Gordon-Releford’s journey underscores the multifaceted nature of graduate education. It involves not just academic efforts but also emotional resilience and strong support systems. Her insights provide a roadmap for anyone contemplating or currently on the path to obtaining a graduate degree. By focusing on relationships, leveraging resources, and staying committed to your goals, you, too, can successfully navigate the challenges of graduate school.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, this show is here to help you on this journey that you're on. I call it a journey because it is a journey. You could be at the very beginning where you're just starting to think about, maybe I want to do this grad school thing. Or you might be a little bit further along where you've applied and you're waiting for that answer. Or you applied and you found out that you were accepted.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: Congratulations. No matter where you are, whether you're currently in a program, you're preparing for a program, or you're just starting to think about it, the show is here to give you some some tips, some hints, some tools for your toolbox to help you to find success in that journey. And there are things that you can do right away to be able to start thinking about that. It's just to start to prepare for that and to put things in place that will help you along the way to find and maintain that success as you go along. And that's why this show is here. Every week I love being able to bring you different people, different guests with different experiences that come from different walks of life that have gone through this process themselves, and they can share with you some of the things that they've learned along the way that have helped them to find success. Today, we got another great guest. Michelle Gordon Relleford is with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: And Michelle did her undergraduate work at Wright State University, but then decided to go and get a master's degree from the University of Michigan Flint, a master of health education, and also ended up getting a master's degree in health services, allied health, health sciences, and ended up getting both of these along the way. So we're gonna talk about that experience, the journey that she went on and what she learned along the way. So I'm really excited to have her here. Michelle, thanks so much for being here today.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:02:15]: Oh, no problem. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:19]: Well, you know, it's my pleasure having you here today. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you about this experience that you went through. So I want to go back in time. I want to turn the clock back. I know I mentioned to you that you I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at Wright State University. You got a bachelor's degree in psychology. And then at some point, probably during that undergraduate time, you decided to your for yourself that you wanted to continue your education, and you wanted to go on to get that master's degree that I was mentioning. Talk to me about bring me back to that point in time and talk to me about what was going through your head that made you decide that getting a graduate degree was the next right step.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:03:03]: Okay. Well, it's actually a funny story, probably not even believable. At Wright State, I had a sorority sister who was in the psychology program, and she's like, are you gonna go get your PsyD? And I was like, no. I think I'm done. And she said, you're not gonna be able to get a job without this graduate degree. Promise me that you will get a graduate degree. And I would I didn't say anything. She said promise.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:03:25]: And I said, okay. I promise. So people who know me is they know that I never break a promise to someone else. I will break them to myself, but I will never break them to someone else. So she broke me in, and she was right. I she knew me better at the time than I knew myself. And so I ended up coming back to Flint to get that degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:46]: So talk to me about that decision process because you did end up deciding to come to the University of Michigan Flint to get that degree and to be able to and there's lots of different places out there. I know you're originally from here in Flint, so maybe that was one of the big factors. But but talk to me about what was going through your head as you were looking at different graduate programs that made you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the ultimate right place for you for this degree itself?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:04:16]: Okay. So Flint, my mother was still there. So my support was right there and the opportunity to come back and be around her more often. My future husband was there, so it was conversations with him and his mother is there. So I had the strong support system outside of the University of Michigan Flint that was saying you could come back and we'll help you a lot. And so that that was major for me. Not to mention that Flint was my home. I already knew what I'd be getting back into.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:04:47]: Knew a couple of people there who were gonna be at the U of M Flint, getting their degrees alongside me. So that was big for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:54]: And you did your undergraduate work in psychology and then decided to apply for a master's in health science education. So talk to me about that because you like you said, your sorority sister asked you about a PsyD. A PsyD is very different than going from a bachelor's in psychology to health science education. So talk to me about what made you decide that that was the right program for you.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:05:20]: Okay. Well, researched lots of programs and what those degrees would mean for me. And it all boiled down to I like community involvement. I like to feel like I'm giving back, and I also like to see what happens when I give back. So to get a degree in health science that that was it if I could do I could do the grant work. I can write the programs. I could talk to people in communities and find out what they needed or they wanted or how they felt about things. And then have those letters to validate that I can do it was amazing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:58]: So anytime that you go into a graduate program, there is a transition. You went from transitioning from being at a small institution in Ohio into moving back to Michigan. You transitioned into from undergraduate to a graduate degree in an area that was different than your undergraduate degree. So every like I said, every person goes through transitions and a transition to be able to be able to be successful. So talk to me about what did you have to do for yourself to be able to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school, and what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the entire graduate school experience?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:06:40]: For both of those, I would say I had to find my graduate school family. You know? In undergrad, you find those friends that you're gonna have forever, and I did. But I also had to find them in grad school. Those are the people that are when you are up at 1 in the morning and you're studying, they're gonna say you got this. Or go to bed if that's the case. They're gonna say, okay. Well, I'll take the notes. You get some rest because you did blah blah blah, or I'll help out with family.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:07:07]: I found my family in grad school to help support me. And there's a lot I don't know how much time we have, but there's a lot that goes into what I'm saying about that. Because during grad school, we found out my husband had cancer. And so even my professors became a lot of family, and they would say, well, attendance is not your priority, but you make sure you have all the work done. So even before COVID, sometimes I was working remotely and checking in with my professor because I had to get my husband to chemo or had to get him to his radiation. And my professor would be, yep. That's more important because I still got an a out of the class, and it's not because they gave me a grade. I worked for it, but they were supportive.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:07:54]: And they said, okay. If there's something you don't understand, I'll make some extra hours for you to talk about it. Or doctor Parker would always say, and how does that make you feel? So I had support system in my family right there in grad school. And without them, I honestly could say that I never would have been able to achieve what I achieved. And not to mention my husband was saying, oh, no. You're gonna finish because I'm not gonna be the reason you missed out on this great opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:22]: You know, it's so important to be able to find that family. And that's one thing that's kind of unique about graduate school is the fact that every person that's in that program with you is interested in the same thing. They're there for different reasons, potentially, But they all have a passion for that. Or they should have a passion for that if they're going to be spending the time, money, and effort to be able to go into that program itself. So being able to connect and to meet with and to be able to allow for yourself the ability to connect with others is going to help you as a student. And when I say connect with others, I am really referring to the fact that you wanna be able to connect with students, but also with faculty and build those strong relationships just like you hopefully were able to build strong relationships in your undergraduate experience as well. Because these people are people that you will draw from, work with, be able to connect back with, and that you can network with, and they will open up their doors down in the future.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:09:26]: Oh, yeah. It was wonderful. And sometimes I was so exhausted. It'd be the start of a new class. And, basically, we were moving in cohorts. And I'd look around, and they say, Michelle, you're in the masters of health science education program and blah blah blah. And the the professor would look at, oh, I've never seen it. I was like, yep.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:09:43]: This is my support group. They help me. It's the little things might slip by me because I'm my mind is on autopilot or something because I have a lot going on. But those are the things they would do, and it did mean a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:56]: Now you've been out of your graduate degree for a number of years now and been working. And I know right now you're working for a think tank as a community outreach manager, but you've also done other things in your career too. So talk to me about how do you find that what you learned in your graduate degree prepared you for the work that you have done and the work that you are doing on a day to day basis?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:10:19]: You're right. I've done a lot of things, but I'd say 90% of it was talking to community youth in the community or teaching them something. How did my degree help me prepare for that? The first thing that comes to mind is we did a Flint tour of grocery stores in different communities, and it was to highlight the differences of what's happening in one community that doesn't have as much money as another community. And I grew up in Flint, and we didn't grow up with the most money. But it brought things to light that, wow, if I go down the street and around the corner, the grocery store is better. Why is it that their grocery store gets to be different from my grocery store? And these were things that my degree highlighted, and it also said that, okay. So now what are you gonna do to make a difference? How are you gonna work with communities and populations to even the playing field? Well, just can't even them, but give them what they need at the time that they need it. So the degree I got from U of M Flint taught me a lot about equity, and I use it often.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:11:21]: It taught me a lot about how different people do different things and how, sometimes the person at the the president at the top of the university might not understand what's happening right at the level of the people in the community. And sometimes you have to be a voice. So my degree, it did a lot because it was a hands on experience. It was working with other students coming from different backgrounds. It still helps me to this day because even now I go out into communities and I talk to political leaders. I talk to nonprofit organizations, non governmental organizations, and that degree helped me with a lot of that. Because to be honest, I'm an introvert. So doing that without those tools would stress me out even more than, going in with what I have.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:12:08]: I know I can do the things that I do, and I know that I'm good at it. And it's because I walked through getting that degree, and it it arms me with what I need to know.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:18]: Now as you think about other individuals, people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be in an area of public health to an area like physical therapy or business or whatever it might be. And you think back to the experiences that you had as a graduate student. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:12:40]: I would say, get to know the librarian. First name faces. I almost wanna say live there. Develop a relationship with your professors that you will often well, I found because it took me a long time to get out of that fear that they're different sitting on Mount Olympus, and I'm sitting down here in Athens or something. So get to know them and you realize it's common ground. There's still people and you might have differences of opinion, but they are human. And that will help you get the support you need. Talk to your family.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:13:13]: Oh my goodness. Yes. Talk to your family. You would find you probably have more support than what you think you did. Parents of teenagers, talk to those teenagers that this is something you wanna do. You'd be surprised at how many more times they'll do the dishes. So talk to your spouse because then you get those great oh, you don't have to cook darling or I'll cook darling nights and or pieces magically showing up at the door because you have a paper coming up. So communicate with your support system, with your team because they have your back.

Michelle Gordon-Releford [00:13:44]: And I couldn't have did it without my tribe or my team or whatever you wanna call them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:48]: Well, Michelle, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own journey today. Thank you for being willing to offer these resources in some of the things that you learned along the way, and I truly wish you all the best. Thank you. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:31]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sits down with Ryan Thomas, an accomplished auditor with the National Guard and dual degree holder from the University of Michigan, Flint. Ryan's journey is a testament to the power of networking, mentorship, and balancing academics with career responsibilities. This blog post delves into the key aspects of their conversation and the valuable lessons Ryan’s experience offers to anyone navigating the complexities of educational and professional advancement.

The Power of Networking

Ryan emphasizes that networking was pivotal in his career success. After completing his undergraduate degree, Ryan faced immense challenges securing employment despite having a strong GPA. Recognizing the limitations of traditional job applications, he turned to networking. Ryan’s connection with staff accountants during his time as a janitor at the VA in Battle Creek, Michigan, eventually led to an interview and paved the path for his first role in accounting.

Ryan underscores the importance of building relationships and seeking help when needed. He believes that people are often willing to assist if you reach out. This mindset not only opened doors but also provided Ryan with the support he needed to navigate his career path.

Mentorship and Professional Development

Mentorship played a crucial role in Ryan’s journey. He advises finding mentors who have achieved goals similar to yours and learning from their experiences. Mentors can offer invaluable guidance on managing conflicts and challenges in one’s career. Ryan’s educational path was significantly influenced by such guidance, leading him to switch from finance to accounting based on a mentor's advice.

Beyond accounting courses, Ryan highlights the significance of diverse coursework in understanding organizational culture and improving core competencies. His education in organizational behavior has taught him the necessity of aligning personal values with the company’s mission, a lesson that has been instrumental in his professional growth.

The Transition to Graduate School

Ryan's transition from undergraduate to graduate studies required significant lifestyle adjustments. Graduate coursework demanded more intensive time commitments, reducing social activities and pushing Ryan to dedicate his evenings to studying. The dual degree program—MBA and MS in Accounting—offered both flexibility and valuable in-person interactions every six weeks, which facilitated deeper learning and networking opportunities.

Balancing Work and Life

Balancing work responsibilities with academic commitments was a challenge Ryan had to navigate adeptly. To manage his increased workload, he developed effective strategies like studying immediately after work or utilizing the library to minimize distractions. He also found solace in nature, meditation, yoga, and exercise to manage stress and maintain balance.

Encouragement and Community Support

Encouragement from counselors and staff at the University of Michigan, Flint’s School of Management played a vital role in Ryan's decision to pursue further education. Post-graduation, his church community provided spiritual support, especially during the times he faced setbacks, reinforcing the importance of a strong support system.

Ryan Thomas's journey highlights the immense value of networking, seeking mentorship, and maintaining a balanced life while pursuing higher education and career goals. His experience is a beacon of inspiration for anyone striving to merge academic pursuits with professional aspirations. Tune into this insightful episode of "Dads with Daughters" to delve deeper into Ryan’s story and gather invaluable lessons for your own journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week I love being able to be on this journey with you. I know I say that every week, but it is true. I love being able to talk with you, to walk with you, to work with you as you're going through this process. No matter where you're going, what you're doing, it is a process. It is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:38]: And every person has to walk this journey by themselves, but you don't have to walk alone. And that's what's so important is that there are so many people around you that have gone through this process for themselves, that have learned things along the way, and they've been able to find success. Now, sometimes they may have stumbled, but they picked themselves up and kept going. And this show is here to be able to not only show you that, but to give you some hints, some tips, some tools for your own toolbox to help you to be able to find success in the journey that you currently are on or that you're currently going to be on. So that's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have gone through this process for themselves to be able to share that journey that they went through with you so that you can learn from them. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Ryan Thomas is with us. And Ryan is an auditor with the National Guard.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: And he is based down south in South Carolina and has been working as an auditor for some time. But he did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint and then went on and got a dual degree. And we're gonna talk about what that means. He got a dual graduate degree of both an MBA and a master of science in accounting. So we're gonna be talking about that journey and the journey to getting those 2 graduate degrees at the University of Michigan Flint as well. And I'm really excited to have him here today. Ryan, thanks so much for being here.

Ryan Thomas [00:02:13]: I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: Yeah. It's my pleasure having you here today. I love being able to talk to different people and learn about the journeys that they went on. Now I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and I love starting these conversations turning the clock back in time. So I want to go back a couple years. I want to go back to the, to that point in time back in your undergraduate days where you probably had that inkling, that inkling in your mind that you wanted to continue your education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Ryan Thomas [00:02:48]: Sure. I had just got honorably discharged out the, military and wanted to kind of find my way out in the workforce. And I figured that one of the best ways that I could build value and credibility was to go get my degree. My mom had went to the University of Michigan Flint, and she just loved it. She used to take me up there when when I was a child, and she would take me to some of her classes. And so, I was very familiar with the campus and decided to go ahead and go into accounting. It was very interesting that I used to go to the rec center as a child, and so I've always had this nostalgic feeling about the the University of Michigan and the Wolverines. So I was very proud to be on the campus and to be able to be in accounting program.

Ryan Thomas [00:03:32]: And I actually began my first major in finance, and I was getting ready to go across the stage. And one of the professors has set me up with a mock interview with the director over international sales at Dow Chemical. And I sat down with them, and we talked about possibilities. And one of the things that he had mentioned to me, he was like, there's a lot of people that's in finance. You don't necessarily have to have a degree to actually work in finance. And he was like, you know, but there's a lot of opportunities in accounting. And, like, there's comptrollers, there's people that do consulting. And I remember looking at my credits and only needed, like, about 4 more classes, so I decided to go back for another year and get my degree in accounting.

Ryan Thomas [00:04:20]: And when I finished up, I had a very difficult time to find an employment. What I learned is that a lot of the employers require experience in accounting. So although I have my degree, I had a difficult time transitioning into some of the prominent accounting firms like Robert Half or Ernst and Young. And so I had a difficult time trying to get in because I just had my GPA, which is pretty good, and I have my degree. So I just started to do some volunteer work, and that's how I began to get my experience. And so I started volunteering my services. And one of the things that I thought was I might as well, while I'm just starting out and finding my way and building experiences, I might as well continue to go to school. So I ended up deciding to go into the graduate program.

Ryan Thomas [00:05:06]: And there was a lot of influence from the counselors and from the staff members at the School of Management. And those relationships with my professors and with that staff really encouraged me to, wanna continue school there. They were always very understanding. I could approach to them even when I had, life issues coming outside the classroom. They were very approachable, and I enjoyed the way they taught. And so, I ended up going through the dual program at the University of Michigan Flint because I began finding some opportunities in accounting as I was going to school. Found my first opportunity at the VA in Battle Creek, Michigan, and I was working there as a staff accountant. And and and believe it or not, before I became a staff accountant, I had to get a job as a janitor at the VA.

Ryan Thomas [00:05:57]: And what happened was there were individuals in the, the department that had called out. I'm sorry. There was a there was somebody that was assigned to the, to the accounting building. And the person that called out and everyone was scared to actually go over there and clean because they were very meticulous. They were very, you know, they were quick to to call in if you made a mistake. And so I ended up volunteering, going over there and cleaning, and started networking. I had conversations with the staff accountants there. And, lo and behold, one of them who I established a relationship with, it told me about interviews that was occurring within the department, and I ended up going out for it.

Ryan Thomas [00:06:37]: And I went to the interview, did really well, and I ended up coming back to work the next day as a janitor. And the chief of accounting had came up to me, and she was like her name was Nancy. And Nancy came up to me while I was in my janitor closet, and she was like, Ryan, you did a great job. She was like, but, we decided to go with somebody else. And I was like, look, and I was like, okay. And I was just grateful. I was just, you know, I I thought that I was I was grateful to have a job at the time. I know how tough it was trying to transition.

Ryan Thomas [00:07:07]: I went a long period of time without work being a student and trying to get my foot in the door, not having that much experience even though I had my degree. And so I was just like, you know, that's okay. There'd be another opportunity. And then, you know, I went on to work and continued on. And I remember I ended up going to church that Sunday, and I had told my pastor that I was going for the interview for the accounting position. And he brought me up in front of the church. There's big old spotlight on me, and he was like, yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Thomas [00:07:35]: Ryan, come up here. And I I came up there, and I just looked at him and I started shaking my head like, no. No. I I didn't I didn't get the job. I mean, thank God. He looked at me and he said, you didn't get the job yet. And he called up the elders and they prayed over me. And I was just like, okay.

Ryan Thomas [00:07:52]: And so I received prayer. And that Monday, the next day, I got a phone call from HR saying that the individual who had initially accepted the position declined the position because they were using that job as leverage to receive a promotion at the job that they had there. And they offered me the position, and so I started working at the VA. And I continued to work and go through the graduate dual program because it allowed space for me to work full time and be able to do classes part time online. And then every 6 weeks, I believe it was, we would, you know, spend a a weekend and face to face with our professors and be able to ask deep down questions that that that might have been puzzling us to some of the work that we were doing. And so the the program really, really kinda fit my schedule and my lifestyle, my my, quality of life of what was going on at the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: That's quite the journey. I really appreciate you sharing that. And it kind of answers my next question, which is typically I I would ask you why U of M Flint, but you kind of answered that. And, you know, sometimes things happen in your life and they happen for a reason. And it sounds like that kind of happened for you, an opportunity, you know, and that opportunity led to further opportunities. And I guess talk to me a little bit about, you decided to do a dual degree, where you had an opportunity to be able to get 2 different degrees. And for those of you that if you don't know what a dual degree is, a dual degree is where you get 2 different graduate degrees, but the graduate degrees have been created in such a way, or they have been linked in such a way to allow you to be able to have some courses that overlap. So in this situation, Ryan was working on an MBA degree, but he also was working on an MS in accounting.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:47]: And the MBA had a concentration in accounting and those courses that were in the concentration and courses in the MS in accounting overlapped. You still have to get 2 degrees. You still have to do those additional credits, but you are cutting that down. You're saving time and money on 2 different degrees. So talk to me about why you chose to do a dual degree versus just focusing on 1 and getting 1 and getting done. Instead, you decided to do both degrees and to come out at the end with 2 different degrees.

Ryan Thomas [00:10:23]: Yeah. So when I had started the, School of Management and I I started the graduate program, they were just there was a lot of marketing and and a lot of exposure, and and they were really promoting the dual program at that time and offering, like you had mentioned previously, the opportunity to get 2 degrees with with, degrees that with classes that overlap. And the way I viewed it is, I wasn't sure exactly, like, what area within accounting I really wanted to focus on, and so I wanted to have a broader view and and get exposure to the different classes that were available so that I could pinpoint and narrow my search as far as where exactly I wanted to end up at. So I've done budget analyst work. I've done general ledger accounting work, and then I've also done auditing. And through that class, I've I, you know, I I really took on took a liking to the auditing part, the the auditing courses within accounting. So, what it basically I was wanting to do was really build some credibility and build value in myself. And I figured that with 2 master degrees from the University of Michigan Flint and our degree state University of Michigan, like, I definitely wanted to be able to provide myself with as many opportunities out there.

Ryan Thomas [00:11:40]: And I found that as I've progressed in my career, that's one of the things that kinda separated me from a lot of other candidates is, having the 2 degrees, the 2 master degrees, and being able to do it within a a a short time frame. Because a lot of people will go out and get their master's degree and then they find that, hey, maybe I wanna change fields or I wanna go into a different area and they'll go back out and they'll get another master's degree, where that may takes upward towards like 6 years. I was able to do it within a shorter time frame. And now I did take some time off in between, you know, when I got that first master's degree and then getting the second thing, but that was very convenient within the dual program. Like even though I took like a semester off, I was still able to continue to work towards that second master's degree to continue to build value and also knowledge and expertise within accounting. So it was not just convenient for me from a practical standpoint, financially, time wise, which 2 things that I value very much, but it was also convenient in the sense that as I kinda started from the bottom floor to, you know, move up the ladder, that the 2 degrees, the 2 master degrees was something that kinda stood out and allowed me to get into some prominent places, you know, as far as working. I worked at one of the biggest accounting agencies in the world in in, DFAS, the Defense Finance and Accounting Center. And then also, had a chance to work with the Army Audit Agency, which is one of the premier auditing agencies with the government as well.

Ryan Thomas [00:13:16]: And so, I got I got exposure to other people with experience, and it all it did was just help propel me in my career. So the dual program was awesome as far as the professors and the way they had it set up. And you essentially are going to class that entire weekend, and the program has lunch set up for you to have food, catered. And so, like, you're going to school half of the day on Friday, and then you go out, take lunch, you get a chance to network and mingle with your, fellow classmates who you mainly just seen online. It gives you a time to gather and see face to face for for individuals who you've done group projects with. So it's always good to put a face with a name, but it makes it much more personable. It, definitely makes you own your product a little bit more when you're able to kinda personalize it. So, in that aspect, I I loved it.

Ryan Thomas [00:14:08]: And then we would get down to the meat and bones of, like, some of the challenging portions within our work and our projects. And then once we got that information, we would be able to go back online and work through some of the class materials, some of the the text and some of the, the quizzes and a test that they have prior to finishing up the courses or whatnot. But essentially, the projects, which were to me the more challenging portions of the class within the graduate program, it was great to be able to have that flexibility of of going online, but then being able to meet together and meet with people for those projects to get on the same page. Communication is a lot more clear. So, it's a little bit more transparent also to get on the same page with, some of the responsibilities, divvying out the work, whatnot. And then the food was great. The food was actually excellent. And then it also gives us the time to connect with the staff members, counselors, and people in the, the School of Management at that time because it was all I'm not sure if it's still in Radisson across the street from the campus or whatnot, but that's where we used to go on when I was going through the program.

Ryan Thomas [00:15:15]: So it was beneficial on all different levels from that aspect.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:18]: Now every student, when they go from one degree to the next, goes through some type of transition. And when you go from high school to undergrad, you had a transition. And for you, you also had some military service in there too, so you had to you had that kind of transition. And then when you went from undergrad to graduate school while balancing work, there was a transition. There's a transition in the way that you're being taught, the expectations on you as a student, and more. Talk to me about when you think back to those transitions, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Ryan Thomas [00:16:06]: I don't think I really thought it through as I was doing it. But as I look back on it, one of the things that I had to do as I transitioned from undergrad to grad was I had to really make my school work a lifestyle when it came to the graduate course work. So, like, the nightly commitments to the graduate program, there's a certain amount of hours that you put in and it's it's gonna equate to a certain grade that you're gonna get out that class. Time is going to equal the achievement. So what I found is my nightlife hanging out. I kinda had to cut back on a lot of that when it came to the graduate program because it was very intense and the commitment level had increased. So most of the time in the evenings, I dedicated to the program to study and to working on the projects. And, and I look back on it now, like, I didn't realize it at the time, but it I essentially had to kinda make a lifestyle change, kinda make it more of a lifestyle rather than just an assignment, or I'm committed to taking these classes.

Ryan Thomas [00:17:13]: Because in the undergrad, I could skim some stuff, and I can research some things, and I could do fairly well. But with the graduate program, I know that I had to kind of really embrace the program and kind of get saturated into the material. Yeah. And I found that I had to sometime, I would read a chapter, and I would have to go back and reread it after I did some of the work. And with math, sometimes you can work backwards. And so I would do the assignments, and then sometimes I would kinda go back over the work for even after an exam, I would go back over some of the work just to make sure that I get it ingrained in me. And so I would say that that was one of the biggest challenges. And then also being able to still work at a certain competency level without school interfering was another thing, making sure that I maintain my commitment at work.

Ryan Thomas [00:18:08]: I didn't have to work was not as challenging when I was in the undergraduate program. But once I got into the graduate program, I got into some higher level accounting work. I started doing some some budget work, and they were increasing my responsibilities. So sometimes what I would do is, I will work late. And since I was already at work, I would just break out my textbooks and start studying like right after work. And certain times, I didn't do it all the time, but it just kinda just goes back around to where I was stating earlier as far as the transition that I had to make personally. It's just I'm not speaking for everybody, but just me personally, I had to kinda make it more of a lifestyle. I spent a lot of time in a library rather than going home and exposing myself to distractions like TV or anyone who might have come by or whatnot.

Ryan Thomas [00:19:03]: And so I kinda had to immerse myself into the academic world and cut back on the social world that I was really involved in. So this is so funny. When I look back on a year that I got my graduate degree, most of the movies that year, I did not watch. So, like, when I watched movies, during the year that I grabbed my graduate degree, they're new to me still, like, and so, I had to cut back on a lot of TV and a lot of leisure time that I had got cut back. And and and there were still ways for me to find work life balance, and and I would just sometimes just kind of relax and take time out to go buy a stream of water. One of my, favorite things to do was to go down there at the U of M Flint campus and, but not during the graduate program, but one of the favorite things I used to do is walk down by the bridge, by the dam down there at the school and just kinda sit down by the river and reflect over what I needed to do and what I've done and just everything that was going on in life. And it gave me a time to kinda just pause, and I I think everybody need that from time to time when you're getting immersed into a lot of work, a lot of challenges is, you know, you sometimes we just need to kinda pause and just kinda be in the moment, just kinda kinda alleviate and get away from a lot of the busyness that can easily sometimes be overwhelming. And so that's one of the ways that I found balances.

Ryan Thomas [00:20:32]: Taking out time to, to pause on the weekends or even on a weekday if I if I found the minute here and there, I would take out some time to pause. At that time, I I I believe I started practicing meditation at that time. I also undertook some yoga and the gym was another outlet for me. So I started working out quite a bit also during my downtime. And then I found that that helped me with coping with some of the stress levels from school and also the work that I had because, you know, you still have responsibilities, You know, I still have to pay bills. I still had to look at other commitments even outside of school and outside of work. You know, I had, some service work that I was involved in that I wanted to maintain a commitment to. So, yeah, those are some of the things that I encountered as far as handling that transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:16]: I really appreciate that. Now, one of the things that I am kind of interested in is you graduated. You found success in this journey that you went on with the graduate degree, and you went on into your career and being now an auditor with the National Guard, but you've also done other things as well along the way and be able to and keeping that connection also with the armed services in different agencies in the federal government. So you have these degrees. As you reflect back on what you learned in those degrees and you look at what you're doing now, talk to me about the interplay there and how you see what you learned in your program, how it prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis.

Ryan Thomas [00:22:02]: So with the accounting, it just kinda laid the foundation in terms of the basics that I had to be able to learn. You know, you learn about t accounts, learn about general ledger accounting codes, and that's all universal language within accounting wherever you go, whether it's government or whether you go out into private sector. So I was able to gain that, but one of the things that I feel like stood out that helped me within my career was some of the the other classes that weren't just the concentration in accounting, like the organizational behavior classes, learning to get vested into the mission, learning to understand, like, the company's values and lining myself up with that. And what I found is that now I try to align my audits with the, leadership's priorities because as we work within our field, we're affecting other departments and other individuals. And so you wanna make sure that your work aligns with the organizational needs and with the direction and the vision of the leadership. So a lot of that organizational behavior class taught me the importance of kinda like having some ownership, really kinda learning some buy in, what what we're doing, kinda understanding the culture of the organization. All of these are very critical things because although I I do work with numbers, I also work with people. And having some familiarity of other departments is very helpful, understanding kinda, like, what their workload may be and kinda understanding, like, what their needs are.

Ryan Thomas [00:23:38]: So So when we kinda understand the culture and we kinda understand the values, we understand the mission, we start understanding where people needs are at, where the gaps may need to be filled in at, you know, like, and be willing to get outside the box also. So for instance, I volunteer for teaching classes. I've taught a class called PMDB at the VA where it's preventative behavior. It's like defensive postures that you can take if you're attacked by a patient. And then, basically, if you work in a hospital, you you can't fight back. And so you learn how to kinda guard yourself in a safe manner. Another thing that I taught was, Arbinger, and that's, kind of like a mindset course where you kind of learn people's motives and intentions and learn how to deal with conflict management. And so that was the other thing also as as I, progressed, I started learning the importance of core competencies, you know, interpersonal skills, learning to develop leadership skills.

Ryan Thomas [00:24:35]: And one of the most valuable things that a lot of organizations are looking for is creative thinking. They want people to think in different perspectives and not just in one way. So because that kind of propels innovation within the organization and also kinda covers the basis on all different sides. So like I said, the accounting is great. I learned the basics, with them through the program, but there was a lot of other classes. Like I said, I attribute, like, organizational behavior to getting me an outside perspective on, like, the leadership, the development in the organization which I work in to kind of propel me. And I found that that has allowed me to take on leadership positions. I've led our general ledger.

Ryan Thomas [00:25:14]: I've led audits and things of that nature in it. Management takes notice to that. There's other classes that can help broaden your skill set. And instead of just of accounting, I would definitely recommend exploring those other classes and being intentional. You know, when you take those filler classes, prerequisites or, you know, classes that may not necessarily be aligned with your concentration.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:39]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that I know that people can think about to be able to incorporate into their own experience. As you think about your own graduate education, you think about students that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer others that would help them find success sooner?

Ryan Thomas [00:25:58]: Network. Network. Network. Network. I didn't realize the power of it. When I was looking for work, I thought it was just a numbers job. No. I was putting in applications, putting applications, putting applications.

Ryan Thomas [00:26:07]: But when you can put a face with that application and you can be able to build connections with people, you'll get provided opportunities, you'll get recommended for opportunities, and they tend the door tends to open up a little wider and a little bit more often than if you were to try to do it on your own. What I found is that, you know, everyone needs help at some point in time. And seeking that help through others, a lot of people are here to be able to help us out. So seeking that help, making the most out of it, making the most out of those connections is, probably one of the most valuable assets that I've gained within, you know, my career and also moving forward out of my graduate degrees. I some of the connections that I feel, I utilize those individuals for recommendations now, or they might, you know, recommend me for a position that opened up. We just had a, auditor position that that just became vacant. And my supervisor, she sent it to us and asked us if we know anybody. Send the word out there.

Ryan Thomas [00:27:08]: And, you know, that's how it all gets started. It grows from just a small thing, like, a opening popping up, and I sent it out to a couple of friends, you know, just let them know, like, hey. This opportunity is available. It's not to say, like, hey. It's a slam dunk or something that you could take, but it's an option. And that was that's the other thing I would recommend is, you know, try to have as many options as possible. There is no greater feeling than having a job opportunity that pops up that's really great, and then being able to be like, you know what? I got something better. No.

Ryan Thomas [00:27:36]: Thanks. And so I would definitely recommend for individuals to cast a wide net whenever you're seeking employment or whenever you're looking at opportunities as far as improvement, certifications, trainings, and things of that nature. You know, I I take trainings today. I was taking a training about mentorship. That's something to get into. Those are another that's another tip that I have for for anyone that is looking to progress and do well. Find somebody who has what you're looking for or that has already gone to where you've been. And that individual call it like a recipe.

Ryan Thomas [00:28:13]: Right? It's like a cake recipe. If you do the certain things that they did, then you can get the same results. And just like how with the cake recipe, if you put in those same ingredients, everybody does it. You put in those same ingredients, you're gonna get that cake. You're gonna get the same results. So I, definitely recommend mentorship and taking individuals who are exactly where you wanna be. I found people that are in leadership positions that have been through my footsteps, and they're in a higher position or they're and it may may not even have to be with money. Maybe they're happy and they're doing well.

Ryan Thomas [00:28:48]: You know, maybe they have a contentment and a joy to them. You know? I like to go to work and have a good feeling about it. I don't wanna get up and dread going to work. So mentorship has helped me find some of those pathways. And sometimes, you know, you know, being able to work with people can be difficult. I found that whenever I have conflict management, being able to hash that out with a mentor and kinda walk through that tape and be like, okay. These are areas that I can improve upon, or these are areas where, hey, I couldn't do nothing about, and I get confirmation and have a little bit more acceptance about it. So we do have those challenges as we continue to progress within our careers, And there's nothing quite like having somebody there to provide support, provide some guidance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:33]: Well, Ryan, I just wanna say thank you for all that you shared today. You've been amazing in providing a ton of resources that will help individuals to be able to think about things in different ways. And I just wanna say I wish you all the best.

Ryan Thomas [00:29:49]: Thank you. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:50]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is an ambitious trek that requires not only academic prowess but also exceptional determination and patience. Recently, I had the pleasure of speaking with Jerome Kirkland, a site manager at BASF and a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint, who shared his invaluable experiences and insights about his journey through graduate school. Our conversation highlighted key aspects of his academic and professional journey, which can serve as a beacon for anyone contemplating a similar path.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education A Call to Higher Education Jerome's story is a testament to the power of mentorship and professional guidance. He reminisced about his initial decision to pursue a master's degree, influenced heavily by his manager, who was a fervent advocate for education. "One of the days he came to me and he said, hey, Jerome, you know, we offer tuition reimbursement. Maybe you should look into that," Jerome recalled. This gentle nudge from his manager played a pivotal role in his decision to enroll in an MBA program at the University of Michigan Flint.

Choosing the Right Program When considering MBA programs, Jerome's choice to stick with the University of Michigan Flint was driven by a combination of familiarity, comfort, and strong family ties. Despite living closer to the Ann Arbor campus, the Flint campus offered him the proximity to family and friends, making his academic journey a holistic experience. "I still have family there. At that time, I was living in Belleville, Michigan... but it gave me an opportunity to, you know, just come home, visit family and friends, and still have an opportunity to get a good education," he shared.

The Graduate School Transition Re-Engaging with Academia Transitioning back into academic life after establishing oneself in the workforce can be challenging. Jerome emphasized the importance of time management, patience, and leveraging one's foundational education to navigate the graduate school terrain successfully. "Graduate school is not for the faint of heart... You really have to dedicate time, you have to dedicate patience," Jerome advised, highlighting the need for a disciplined approach.

Overcoming Challenges Every academic journey comes with its unique set of challenges. For Jerome, the global COVID-19 pandemic became a backdrop for his graduate studies, presenting both difficulties and opportunities. Jerome used the increased focus and decreased distractions during the pandemic to his advantage. "I had a little bit more time to really just push myself towards getting that degree in graduate school."

Key Learnings and Applications Collaboration and Continuous Learning One of Jerome's major takeaways from his MBA program was the importance of collaboration. "If you're the smartest person in the room... you need to find another room," he said. This mindset has been instrumental in his professional life, where he continuously seeks diverse perspectives and teamwork to address complex challenges.

Practical Applications Jerome’s experiences in graduate school, from financial analysis to operations management, have had a direct impact on his day-to-day job as a plant manager. He emphasized that the real-world case studies and hands-on learning in his MBA program have made his professional responsibilities more comprehensible and manageable.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Follow Your Passion Jerome’s most crucial piece of advice for prospective graduate students is to pursue further education only if they are genuinely passionate about it. "You have to really say that this is what I want. You can't do it for somebody else," Jerome stressed. His journey underscores the importance of intrinsic motivation and personal commitment in achieving success.

In conclusion, Jerome Kirkland’s journey through graduate school offers a wealth of insights for anyone considering this path. His experience underscores the importance of mentorship, the right academic environment, disciplined time management, and the drive to overcome challenges. As Jerome aptly puts it, continuous learning and collaboration are keys to long-term success in both academia and professional life.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, this week, as always, I'm here to walk with you, to help you, to work with you as you walk toward, walk through, and walk beyond graduate school. It's really exciting to be able to be in this journey alongside you, to help you along the way, and I want you to be successful. So that's why every week this podcast is here to be able to give you some tips, some tools, some things that you can take with you to help you on this journey that you're on. Every week I try to bring you different guests with different experiences that have been able to go to graduate school, have been able to go to graduate school, be able to be successful in going through graduate school, and can share that experience with you. Today, I've got a great I've got a great new guest with us today and I'm really excited to be able to have him here.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Jerome Kirkland is with us today. And Jerome is a site manager at BASF, and he's been doing that for a number of years. But he did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went on and got his master's of business administration at the University of Michigan Flint as well. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with him and have him share some of his experiences with you. Jerome, thanks so much for being here today. Thank

Jerome Kirkland [00:01:35]: you so much for having me, Doctor. Lewis.

Christopher Lewis [00:01:37]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you. And I want to turn the clock back in time. I want to go all the way back to those days when you were on campus at the University of Michigan, Flint going through that bachelor of business administration degree in accounting and operations management. At some point during that time, you made a choice. You made a choice to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head and what made you decide that graduate school was the right next step.

Jerome Kirkland [00:02:05]: Well, if I go back to that time, I was working a lot in automotive. Being from the Flint area, you know, basically everything, manufacturing or any really good paying jobs at that time were in manufacturing. So I wanted to make sure that my education kinda took me to where I wanted to go. We all have aspirations when we're either getting ready to go to undergrad or grad school on where do we see our careers being. I know one of the things that I wanted from my career was to at least be at a plan manager, director level, or somewhere along that stratosphere, And I knew in order to do that, I will have to do the work leading up to that. And one of those things was making sure that I got my bachelor's in the end, pursued a master's degree so that I could really see how to really effectively run a business.

Christopher Lewis [00:02:44]: I mentioned that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and you probably could have gone to a lot of different places. You could have chosen to go to some other place for your master's degree, but you chose to go to the to the master's in business administration program at the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about what made you decide that the MBA was the right choice. And then secondly, as you were looking at MBA programs, what made you finally decide that U of M Flint was the place where you wanted to land?

Jerome Kirkland [00:03:12]: Well, what made me really look at getting an MBA was I had a manager who really believed in, you know, education and and really doing those things to get yourself ahead in in organizations. And one of the days he came to me and he said, hey, Jerome, you know, we offer tuition reimbursement. And I said, really? He said, yeah. Maybe you should look into that. And, he said, we'll talk about it on our next call. So that was kind of the gentle push. I believe I need it. I believe that manager at the time, who was our global manufacturing director, seen something in me where he's seen that I could grow throughout our organization.

Jerome Kirkland [00:03:45]: And he said, well, hey. You know, by the time we had the next call, I said, I looked into it, and one of the places that I think I really have a good fit is University of Michigan Flint. I still have family there. At that time, I was living in Belleville, Michigan, which was actually closer to the Ann Arbor campus, but it gave me an opportunity to, you know, just come home, visit family and friends, and still have an opportunity to get a good education.

Christopher Lewis [00:04:06]: Now, anybody that goes through undergraduate work gets out into the workforce and then decides, Hey, I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go back and get some education. You gotta get back into the mindset. You gotta transition back into school. And there is a transition that you go through when you go from being an undergraduate student to being a graduate student. So talk to me about that transition and what you had to do to be able to not only find success as you entered into the graduate degree, But what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Jerome Kirkland [00:04:42]: I always tell people graduate school is not for the faint of heart. It's a lot of work that you have to put in there. So you really have to dedicate time, you have to dedicate patience, and you kinda have to deal with your foundational education. I I think it was really important that I got a good education in my undergrad, and it helped push me and make me successful throughout grad school. I think the one thing I can say about University of Michigan Flint is the professors really are there to help you. They're they're to push you also. So it's not like, you know, they're just giving degrees away. It's a lot of work that goes into it.

Jerome Kirkland [00:05:11]: And once I realized the the time commitment that I would have to give to it, I I just kinda buckled down there and said, okay. This is what I'm gonna have to do to move forward. And then the second thing was just patience because, you know, with grad school, it's it's half the time of undergrad school. So you look at it as it's it's a it's a more accelerated push of yourself, and it and it really pushes you to, you know, different limits. And then you still have your day to day life going on, whether you're working or whether you're a parent or whether you're a spouse. So all of those things combined, it just you know, it it put me in a place where it pushed me to be the best version of myself.

Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]: Now going through graduate school is not always roses. It's there's definitely challenges along the way. Talk to me about some of those hills that you had to climb and what you had to do to be able to persevere, to be able to get to that that light at the end of the tunnel?

Jerome Kirkland [00:06:03]: Well, I think in a lot of cases, when I was going through graduate school, and I'm just gonna speak for myself specifically, it was a really tough time because the environment outside of my life really changed. We had something that came through in 2020 called COVID 19, and that was the time that I was going through graduate school. So trying to navigate school, we're trying to navigate life, we're trying to navigate all these other challenges, I think gave me a different renewed focus because I had a little bit more time to really just push myself towards getting that that degree in graduate school. So I think if anything, I know that nobody can ever say COVID was a good time in life, but it was a good time for me to push myself to really focus because I didn't have as many distractions because life kinda changed on the outside.

Christopher Lewis [00:06:47]: You definitely go through a lot of learning and a lot of growth as you go through graduate school yourself, yourself, and you learn a lot about yourself as well as you do similar to undergraduate work as well, but it's just in a little bit different way. As you think back to graduate school, what was some of the biggest moments for you that you learned about yourself that are still helping you today?

Jerome Kirkland [00:07:11]: Well, one of the biggest moments was some of the, STEM classes that we have within there is is the I think it was financial analysis, and then it was another class that I had or operations management. It was some things that I hadn't been through in a long time. So it it really made me have to go back and try to remember how to work through some of those types of, problems. Even even some of the other classes when it came to marketing and some other things, a lot of times you get a bachelor's and you think, hey. I know what's going on. I know how to proceed in a class like this. But those moments like those were the ones that and then technology changed a little bit. When I went through school, you know, it was mostly Microsoft Office, a little bit of PowerPoint, a little bit of Excel, some things like that.

Jerome Kirkland [00:07:51]: They were doing more access, and they were using other types of slideshows and some things like that that I hadn't been used to. So so a lot of those things, along with some of the younger talent that was going through the program with me, kinda help foster along some growth within myself. And then it also put me in a place where I could really take some of those case studies and apply them to my day to day being a plant manager in in a manufacturing facility. And a lot of those things, I was like, okay. Now it really makes sense why they present it the way they do. So I was just really overjoyed by a lot of the things that I learned, and those moments really taught me that I didn't know as much as I thought I knew. So I always like to use the term, the more I learn, the less I realize I know. And that was just one of those times where going through that program really taught me a lot.

Christopher Lewis [00:08:33]: You definitely learned quite a bit. And as you have finished your degree, you finished that off and you've been out in the workforce for quite a few years. As you think back to your time going through not only the degree itself, but now that you've been out in the workforce for a number of years and working in industry, as you look back and and you think about what you learned in that process, how do you find that you use the things that you learned on a daily basis?

Jerome Kirkland [00:09:01]: I think probably the biggest lesson I learned that I use on a daily basis is collaboration. If you're the smartest person in the room or the biggest person in the room, you probably need to find another room. Right? You need to fill it with different people who have different perspectives that can help you grow and help the organization grow throughout. So one of the things that I I've I've really learned is how do you collaborate? How do you work with people? How do you utilize other people's strengths to help your deficiencies? So those were the things that really stand out to me on what I really learned from the program.

Christopher Lewis [00:09:29]: Now as you think about individuals that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for the MBA or any graduate program, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every student?

Jerome Kirkland [00:09:40]: I would say it's just like anything else. You only should do it if your heart is really into it. You have to really say that this is what I want. You can't do it for somebody else because you'll have those bad days or those days where you're writing that 20 page paper that you say, is this really worth it? You have to really wanna do it for yourself, your family, and you really have to have some time and some patience to be able to push through.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:02]: Well, Jerome, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for your willingness to be able to talk back about the all these things that you've learned along the way, and I truly wish you all the best.

Jerome Kirkland [00:10:15]: Alright. Thank you so much, doctor Lewis, for having me.

Christopher Lewis [00:10:17]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, we had the privilege of delving into the remarkable journey of Dr. Donald Tomalia, a pioneering figure in the field of chemistry and an inspiring role model for many. Dr. Tomalia, now in his 80s and still actively contributing to the field, shared his insights on the development of new molecular architectures, his career journey, and the unwavering curiosity that has driven his success.

Pioneering Dendrimer Research

Dr. Donald Tomalia is widely acknowledged for his groundbreaking work on dendrimers - dendritic polymers with branching patterns inspired by natural structures like trees and neurons. Discovered at Dow Chemical Company in 1979, dendrimers have since become pivotal in various applications, such as targeted cancer therapies and vaccine delivery systems. In particular, their capability to deliver messenger RNA for vaccines represents a significant leap forward in medical science.

Working alongside groups in the US and Europe, Dr. Tomalia continues to push the boundaries of chemistry. His work emphasizes the creation of new molecular structures, leading to discoveries with far-reaching implications for medicine, agriculture, and environmental science.

The Role of Mentorship and Education

Dr. Tomalia’s educational journey began at Flint Junior College, before moving on to the University of Michigan Flint where he found invaluable mentorship under the guidance of Professor Harry Blecker. The fundamental knowledge and support he received were instrumental in shaping his academic and professional pursuits. Despite financial constraints, scholarships and fellowships enabled him to pursue higher education and eventually attain a PhD from Michigan State University while working at Dow.

He attributes his success not to luck, but to hard work and persistence. For Dr. Tomalia, mentors played a critical role in his journey. Figures like Dr. Harry Blecker and Professor Adi Makela provided the encouragement and guidance necessary to navigate the uncertainties of a scientific career. He advises graduate students to find mentors who can inspire confidence and fuel their curiosity, emphasizing that hard work and dedication are essential for achieving success.

Balancing Professional and Personal Life

Balancing a demanding career with personal responsibilities has been a recurring theme in Dr. Tomalia's story. He shares candidly about the challenges of maintaining this balance, yet his passion for chemistry and the continual evolution of his work have kept him engaged and excited throughout the years.

Legacy and Future Directions

Dr. Donald Tomalia’s contributions to the field of chemistry, particularly in dendrimer research, have laid a foundation for future innovations. As the CEO and owner of Nano Synthons LLC, and founder of companies like Dendritech and Dendritic Nanotechnologies, his work continues to inspire and drive progress in therapeutic delivery systems.

This conversation underscores the dynamic interplay between curiosity, mentorship, and persistence. Dr. Tomalia's journey serves as a testament to the potential of scientific inquiry and the transformative power of education. As Dr. Christopher Lewis eloquently closed the episode, it's clear that Dr. Tomalia’s work will continue to influence and inspire future generations of chemists and researchers. For those seeking to follow in his footsteps, the University of Michigan Flint offers a robust platform to embark on their academic journey, with graduate programs tailored to provide comprehensive education and mentorship.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love going on a journey with you. And it is a journey because you may be at the very forefront of starting to think about graduate school. But you came to listen today because you're thinking grad school in some aspect, whether you're at the very beginning and you're just starting to look at different schools or different programs to see what's out there and what might be a possibility, or maybe you've already applied or gotten accepted. You know, you're somewhere in this continuum. You could even be in graduate school looking for that light at the end of the tunnel where you know that you've got another year ahead of you, and you're just working through this process for yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:01]: Wherever you are, this podcast was set up to help you to find success in that journey that you're on. And that's why every week I love being able to talk to you, talk to you about this journey, but also to give you some tools for your toolbox to help you along the way. And we do that by bringing you different guests, different people that are able to tell you their story and able to share that journey that they went on so that you can learn from the things that went well, maybe things that didn't go well, and be able to take those things, internalize them, and find a path for yourself. Today, we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Donald Tomalia is with us today, and Dr.Tomalia started his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, but then went on and got a PH d at Michigan State University. Both of those degrees were in chemistry. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that he was on. I'm really excited to talk to him and the journey that led him to be the CEO and owner of Nano Synthons LLC, and I'm really excited to have him here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: Doctor Tomalia, thanks so much for being here.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:02:10]: It's my pleasure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: So first and foremost, I wanna turn the clock back in time. You did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And while you were at the University of Michigan Flint, you got a degree in organic chemistry. And somewhere along that line, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go further. You wanted to continue your education. Bring me back to that point in time and where you were at in your mind and why you decided graduate school was the right path for you.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:02:42]: I actually was going to the I went to the Flint Junior College for my first two years, and I had a real deep passion for chemistry and science, but didn't really quite know how I was gonna make a living at it. However, I found a couple of real mentors in the Flint, Junior College faculty as well as on the faculty of the, University of Michigan Flint College. And the key person at the U of M Flint was doctor Harry Blacker, who really started your whole chemistry department back in gosh, I even lost track of what decade it was, but it was back in the seventies, I think, or sixties or fifties. He was there only a few years before I arrived on campus from, Flint County College. I think they call it not community college. In any case, I I came from a middle class family. My father is an accountant, a CPA from Flushing. I was born and raised in the Flushing area.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:03:38]: I couldn't afford to go to a pedigree, school like Harvard or East or as West Coast University. So I had to find my education as close as possible, and I had to find an education route that would I could actually afford. I was lucky enough to get a scholarship not only from the Lions Club in the Flushing Flint area, but I got an undergraduate fellowship from the, University of Michigan Board of Regents that covered my 2 years in Flint. And it, I can tell you, is probably some of the most precious and important days of my life because it really launched me into a career that I have I'm 86, and I have never had a boring moment in my life, ever since I left my undergraduate days because I picked the right profession to match my personality, my interest, and it was a a unique way that I arrived there. And that it was because my I've been told my parents, especially my mother, knew that I was a person that once I understood something or I learned how to do something or I solve the problem, I get bored quite quickly. And her biggest challenge was to find things to keep me interested because I would be solving these things. And I said, oh, well, that's done. We don't have any more to do there.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:04:59]: So she said, if you're gonna ever feel you're going to be able to live a happy and fulfilling life, you're gonna have to really be sure you pick a profession or an area that you will love and enjoy. Like, it's a hobby, and it's not really like it's work the way we think of going to work and earning a living. And I was just fortunate enough to find that chemistry to me seemed to be that route. It seemed to be the core. It was the essence of everything that we have in in our life, all the way from the environment, to food, to medication, to the way we even live, fact that we depend on all of these intricate chemistry processes and and, just to have good health and to be alive. And in any case, this started me on a path that I thought was going to be like a hobby. I never thought about I was gonna have to make a living someday. And so I finished my 2 years at U of M Lamp.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:06:03]: I was mentored and coached by faculty members in Ann Arbor, U of Ann Arbor, and they encouraged me to go to a small university out east called Bucknell University. And several of the faculty members had either been students there or taught there, and they said it had the perfect environment for what I was looking for. And that was I I love solving problems. I love trying to understand what makes things work, what is life about, what are patterns, how does all of this come together to give us what we take for granted each and every day, and it it involves some type of chemistry or some form of chemistry. And when I made that trip out to Bucknell for a master's degree, everybody says you've gotta go on for your PhD. Where are you gonna go? Well, my father informed me that I can't be a professional student all my life. This is the time when I really have to be thinking about what I'm gonna do to make a living, and I had actually become married. I became married during that time, and I was actually 22, 21, and have our first child.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:07:12]: And so I was really encouraged to try to get into a paying professional position. And of all things, the Doc Chemical company came along and they made me an offer I couldn't refuse. It was during those golden years when there were so many jobs. I had, like, 12 or 13 job opportunities, and Dow was just one of them. But it turns out to be one of the best. So after finishing at Button Hill, I came back here to Midland to start working for Dom with a master's degree. And I within 2 to 3 years, I realized that all of a sudden, I've got 10 or 12 PhDs reporting to me for some reason because I've always have a lot of ideas. I always like to do things and get things done and improve things.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:07:55]: And Finding Dile Management said, Tamalia, you probably are going to have to go back and get what they call your union card. And they said it's called a PhD because if you have this PhDs working for you, it's gonna it's gonna get more difficult, with time not having some kind of proof that you have the qualifications to lead. And that is what prompted Don Langhorne to make a proposition to me, and that was if you are willing to go back and do your PhD, which by the at that time, they had a nice arrangement with Michigan State for graduate study. If you are willing to do that, we allow you to do all your research in our laboratories, and you won't have to leave your job. You could continue to make your salary, etcetera. I couldn't believe it. And in fact, they came through with flying colors because they literally paid for about 3 years of graduate work at Michigan State. I think only the only thing I had to pay for was the binding of my thesis, which was about $35.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:08:55]: And I had a complete PhD within 3 years after I started at Don Chemical Company. And it it's a strange way I didn't oh, the main reason is they had a residency requirement that I said I couldn't afford to take the 1 year off to go in the residency because I really had to earn the money to support my family. And they waived the residency requirement, and they allowed me to use that facilities to do my PhD research and my product altogether into a thesis. And I graduated in 1968 from Michigan State. And by the time, I was leading a pretty big group. I had 20 some people in my group by that time. And I was having so much fun. I almost couldn't find my way to have to leave the lab and come home every evening.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:09:38]: I just love being in the lab as much as I could, but it did lead to some other things that I'd like to share with you as time went on. And among them were because of this opportunity, not only created them by U of M Flint because they were close. They had good mentors there, especially doctor Harry Blecker, and there were people at the Mott College or the Flint Junior College at that time. One of them was was Adi Makela, professor Makela. He was a Finnish scientist who came and taught me a lot of analytical chemistry. But it was that unique environment in the Flint area. When I went back to visit with you folks a few months ago, I couldn't believe how much you have progressed in advance because I hadn't been there in quite a few years in the Flint area. But we were really housed in less than maybe 4 or 5 small to modest buildings.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:10:31]: That was the University of Michigan Flint College. But what get out of that experience that was so unique, in my opinion, was this close relationship with faculty members who were outstanding that had all kinds of unlimited time to spend with you. You didn't get I was never lost in big classes or big classrooms. I always had this mentorship that was always available, especially at U of M Flint with Harry Bleicker. And it was this mentorship, I think, that that carried me not only on to Dow, but really carried me on into the rest of my career because I've gone back and thought about key points that really made, decisions that led to where I am now, and they always involve an important mentor or a teacher or someone that gave very important critical advice. And you didn't think it was important at the time until you look back at it in retrospect. But you might wonder, well, where did this lead? Maybe you have other questions, but it did lead to the discovery of of probably one of the biggest scientific discoveries that I've had in my career, and that, may be defined as the area of the what they call nowadays dentamers and dendritic polymers. And dendritic polymers really came about because of kind of a fascination with patterns, with any kind of pattern that you could think of whether it be weather patterns for the best days to go fishing or patterns that you might see architecturally in nature.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:12:00]: And I was always fascinated about the branching patterns that we find in the branching of trees. This is really referred to as a dendron, and it is kind of a very rudimentary prototype or model to show just to demonstrate the kind of an ideal branching that one might expect to see in trees. And I was just fascinated, why did nature decide to pick on that kind of architecture for every tree and many, many plants in the world? And I've been linked to a little more sophisticated level and asked, why did nature use that same kind of architecture to design the neurons in our brains in a branching patterns, which look very similar to trees, a lot of little trees. That fascinated me. And it raised this really a challenge for me intellectually, and that was, is it possible to make a molecule that might imitate what this architecture looks like or what a tree looks like? And that is what led to this discovery of what we now call the area of dendomers, dendrons, and dendritic materials. And, just to give you a quick overview of it, they were discovered at the Dow Chemical Company in 1979, developed throughout the eighties, and then licensed out, and they became the basis for forming 3 start up companies that I founded. The first one being Dendrotech, which is still in business in Midland, Michigan. They still are making Dendro's.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:13:32]: And Dendro's, just to give you a a real quick understanding of what they look like, is shown on this book that I wrote just about 8 or 9 years ago. And this is a dendron. That's that right there is referred to as a dendron, a trunk with the branches. This is a dendron. This is a tridendron. Precise. You can measure them. You can work with them.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:13:54]: They are nanoscale, and they are being used today for several very important medical areas. And one of them being they are now currently under investigation for the next futuristic COVID virus. Back of this last pandemic that we had there, the person that received the Nobel Prize for coming up with a solution to it, doctor Drew Wiseman, he's at the University of Pennsylvania in the chemistry. He's an adjunct in pet chemistry there. He came up with the notion of how we they could use these dendymers to deliver messenger RNA, which we now know is a is the magic ingredient they use for the COVID vaccine. So dendymers, this idea, this obsession I had with patents and especially why trees chose to use them, finally led to just the last few years where now they are being actively looked at, researched, and used, and optimized for, future vaccines that will involve the use of messenger RNA much as they have been used by Pfizer and Moderna too in the last pandemic. The second area that is really active and looking very important is that there's a company called Star Pharma, which is another story. They are the recipients of many of my patents and they were used these patents to start the initial public offering of their company.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:15:23]: They're located in Melbourne, Australia and they are currently have some of the best targeted delivery therapies for treating cancer. And I'm talking about some really tough cancers like pancreatic, prostate, and they are able to target specifically these cancers using these dendromeric materials as carriers to carry the therapy. To kinda sum it up, those are some of the smaller areas. There are some other bigger areas that I won't have time to talk about. But to put it all together in a perspective that you might grasp, it's kind of as follows. These dendomers represent a 4th major category or classification of polymers that we refer to as dendritic macromolecules. How do they relate to all everything else that we know about in the world called plastics, polymers. If you go back to the first very first polymer that was discovered and invented, it was a linear, like a piece of spaghetti.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:16:17]: And it was a linear polymer, and it was discovered by Staudinger and a number of other very in famous people developed the nylons, corollars, and others. And it's at the bottom here, and it's called that is part of what poses the first category of polymers or linear materials. The second area, polymers, major architectural area of polymers are the crosslink polymers that we are everywhere in our life, and they're found in every tire that you've you've ever put on the car is a crosslink polymer. So these are crosslink polymers play a huge role in our lives, not only for tires and epoxies and for coatings, but for a whole variety of needs that we have for salver and other areas. And then the third is much less well recognized, but it's the simple branch polymers, which is the third category here, and it's now being used on a routine basis at the Dow Chemical Company and VA, the other major chemical companies. And it is what defines and develops the toughness that you find in in these shopping bags. Carry you got a shopping bag and they don't rip apart pull apart that easily. It's the toughness that they have is due to the low density of simply branched polyethylene.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:17:33]: And then our area now might become recognized as the 4th major telestendritic or polymers or hyperbranch system. And first company was founded in Midland, Michigan. It was founded as I took leave of absence from Dow Chemical Company, and it's still in existence. It was founded in 1991, and it it was a company that Dow eventually bought back from me, but allowed me to have keep some of my patents to develop a second company called Dendritic Nanotechnologies, and that company was founded here in Mount Pleasant. And it was funded partially by Star Pharma who eventually got patents from that, and they, in turn, allowed me to move on and form this 3rd company called Nano Synthons, and we currently are here in Mount Pleasant in a 5,000 square foot laboratory working on various versions and forms of these therapeutic materials shown here. As I've been sharing with you, Chris, we've been so busy this year because these architectural polymers that are very similar and related to the structures you see here are what we are having so much interest from, not only people around the country here in the US, but all over the world. And they, they are interested in them for new properties that they have brought. Whenever you create a new architecture at the molecular level, I mean, most chemists are very much aware of the fact that when you create a new architecture at the molecular level, you always see brand new properties.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:19:09]: So the big quest for anyone who is in science or especially chemistry is if you can create new architecture at the molecular level, you will absolutely expect to see brand new properties, and everybody wants to see new properties because then it creates new possibilities, whether it's procuring cancer or raising more food more productively or improving the environment or whatever. And so this is where we are as we speak today is we are at we are going beyond and further, I should say, into this path and this journey with Dendamers, and we are working with groups all over all over the US as well as in several from Europe. And that keeps me very busy even in my 8th decade of life, and I guess I've been actively working for probably 6 decades or more. In any case, to make a long story short about getting bored about solving problems, chemistry has really been a great friend and has served me well because it has this unique characteristic about itself that once you solve the problem, so many new questions are created that you never have an m. You always have something that you have to think about solving or understanding. That has left me in a state of excitement even in my 8th decade, and I have never had a moment of boredom, I can tell you, because of this profession I chose. And I'm really eternally grateful to U of M Flint for being there at the right time that I needed this means to get started because they really without the U of M Flint, I don't think I could have afforded to go to one of these fancier colleges out east because it was only because they were close by. I could commute to them to that location, and I had scholarships and funding not only by U of M Board of Regents, but by local scholarship granting agencies in the Flint, Flushing area.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:21:11]: And all I can say is I've had a full life, and I'm very grateful for that. I'm just very grateful for the fact that the U of M was there and was the right place to get started. And by the way, I found and I will tell anybody that is willing to listen to me. I got probably one of the best educations that you could ever find anywhere in the country. And I'm I'm adjunct professor at University of Pennsylvania as we speak in chemistry. I'm adjunct professor at the University of Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond in physics. I'm adjunct there in physics department. And everybody says, well, how where did you get your great background in all these areas? And It goes right back to the small classes that I was so blessed to be able to attend at U of M Flint and the amazing mentors that were there at the time.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:22:03]: And I'm missing a lot of the names. I didn't need to go back and relook up many of the other faculty members, but the one that stands out most to me is professor Harry Blecker. And I believe his son still lives in the Flint area and works at UConn Flint as I understand it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:18]: You've had a very busy career. And you as you said, you you made that jump from what is now Mott Community College to the University of Michigan Flint. And then you went to Bucknell, and then you ended up at Michigan State University. And in each of those stages, in each of those opportunities, when you transition into a new type of educational entity or environment, there's a transition that you go through, and you found success. When you went to Lucknow. You went to Michigan State. You found success. You got your degrees.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:49]: You were able to continue your education and get gainfully employed as we've been hearing about. So thinking back on those transitions, you found success. What did you have to do in each of those transitions to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout each of those unique graduate school experiences?

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:23:11]: That's really an insightful question, and it's not an easy one to answer because it involved a number of parameters and a number of variables. I have in this insatiable curiosity to understand and know how things work. I'm still struggling with and trying to understand what's required to create life itself. It sounds philosophical, but it's a technically big and curious question to me. And chemistry, as it turns out, was that medium that allowed me to understand all the facts and the details that go into the working and the function of life itself, let alone practically everything that we have in our universe and on this planet. But to answer your question, what were some key things? I think it is pursuing these curiosities and not giving up when you will count came to a stand or a barrier or a big roadblock block just staying persistent, perhaps taking a a break and working in another area and eventually coming back. All of these various kinds of occurrences happen throughout that journey. But I think it's just having a strong curiosity, a strong persistence, and understanding, trying to come to the bottom of the, question and understand what really is making this happen or what is really causing something.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:24:28]: And that's something that you get only if you you have an opportunity to enjoy that only if you are enjoying what you are doing. And I believe that's a big part of the secret for my happiness at my stage after all these years in this area. I've really never had a boring day. I can honestly say I never had to work a day in my life. This has been one great big hobby that has given me not only a great living, but it's given me all kinds of joy and understanding. I'm doing a deep level of satisfaction about understanding things about the university that I would never had a reason to pursue had it not been to try to understand the chemistry behind it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:09]: Now as you think back to your graduate education and you think about people that are thinking about graduate school now, whether it's in chemistry, whether it's in English, it doesn't really matter. What are some tips that you would want to leave with others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:25:26]: I always felt identifying a good mentor, a person that is willing to spend the time with you, has confidence in your ability and your interest and in your willingness to work hard. But if you find that kind of a person or what I call an ideal mentor, they very often fill in all these gaps where you feel some doubt that, am I going the right way, or is this the way I should be moving on in my life? It's these mentors that come along the way. And I happen to have, as I mentioned, some 3 or 4 very important ones, and they all, of all things, had the first name Harold. At U of M Flint, it was Harold Liker. At Michigan State University, it was Harold Hart. At Bucknell University, it was Harold Heine. It was a coincidence that they all had the first name Harold, but they were all major mentors that stood out in my career as make helping me make some very important decisions and opening my eyes to some very important possibilities. And I really do have no idea what luck is.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:26:28]: I don't actually really believe in luck. I really believe hard work creates luck. Luck is something that people that should be to pay a success to. Oh, you're lucky because you you got this to happen because you were lucky. No. In my opinion, in my life, it's always been a lot of hard work that seems to create the possibilities that things happen that are good, that people call luck. And I firmly believe hard work is really the origin of luck good luck and success, and it takes different forms. It may mean sometimes your wife is not happy because she's spending too much time thinking science and chemistry and math thinking, maybe more, down to earth possibilities like getting the trash carried out or getting the lawn cut.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:27:15]: So it is really sometimes being too passionate about an area as I am with chemistry, if you be these issues that people don't understand that you can be so excited that you wanna spend a lot of your time thinking about a particular area or doing things in an area called, in my case, chemistry.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:33]: Well, Donald, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your own educational journey, but how that educational journey really led you to all of the discoveries, but also through the years of passion that you had with this, we'll say, hobby that has led to a career, which has led to the entirety of your profession and what you have identified and created throughout that period of time. And I really appreciate you sharing that with us, and I look forward to sharing it with others, and I truly wish you the best.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:28:07]: Thank you very much, Chris. And I just wanna say I am truly impressed, and I'm really very pleased to see how much progress in the advancements that have been made at the U of M campus in Flint. When I arrived there a few months ago back at for my first visit after probably 20 or 30 years, I couldn't even imagine or believe how much you have grown and how nicely you have grown. So leave it to say, as we finish, I'm left with some very fond and treasured memories of my days at Flint U of M, and I would highly recommend that campus to anybody, especially if you're having a financial or money problem where you can't afford to go to Harvard or to Stanford or wherever. And it gives you an education that holds up anywhere, in my opinion. In fact, many people could not believe that I had such a great grounding and a such a great background created by my experience at a small campus such as U of M Flint. So I will be forever beholding, to that opportunity I had in Flint. And I really appreciate you taking the time, Chris, to allow me to share this story and this little bit of my life.

Dr. Donald Tomalia [00:29:17]: There are a lot of other things I could tell you about, which would take way too much time, but I truly enjoyed this moment with you. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:24]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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As we approach the holiday season, it's time to reflect on your journey through the past year and look forward to new beginnings. Here's some advice for you during this special time.

Reflect on Your Accomplishments It's easy to get caught up in the busyness of graduate school, but the holiday season offers a perfect pause. It is important to celebrate your progress, regardless of how small it may seem. Reflecting on your achievements is not just a pat on the back but a motivational exercise that reinforces your resilience and determination.

Recharge for the New Year Graduate school can be both exhilarating and exhausting. The winter break is an excellent opportunity to rest and rejuvenate. We encourage you to take this time seriously, not only for self-care but also to reconnect with loved ones. Whether it's a peaceful retreat or festive gatherings, these moments are essential for mental and emotional well-being.

Setting Goals with Determination As we bid farewell to one year and welcome another, goal-setting becomes crucial. Remember that being a graduate student is synonymous with rising to challenges. Therefore, as you jot down your aspirations for the new year, let them be guided by the same determination that has brought you this far.

University of Michigan-Flint: Your Partner in Success For those considering further education, the University of Michigan-Flint offers a variety of master's and doctorate programs designed to meet diverse needs. Whether you seek in-person or online learning, explore the options available at umflint.edu/graduateprograms.

A Heartfelt Thank You Tank you for being a part of this journey. As the Victors in Grad School podcast takes a brief hiatus, he assures you that they will return in January to continue inspiring and guiding you through your graduate studies.

Warm wishes for a joyful holiday season and a prosperous new year! For any inquiries, don’t hesitate to reach out at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu. Your path to success is just beginning.

TRANSCRIPTION

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, and welcome to the victors in I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. And as always, I'm here to support and inspire you on your journey through graduate school. Today, I just wanted to take a few moments to connect with you as we wrap up the year and head into the holiday season. Whatever you're doing as you're preparing for the end of the year, this is the perfect time to pause, reflect, and recharge. Here at the University of Michigan Flint, our campus will be closing for a well deserved winter break, and we will be taking a short break from the podcast as well. Victor's in Grad School will return in January, refreshed and ready to bring you more inspiring stories and practical tips for succeeding in your graduate studies. During this break, I encourage you to take some time for yourself and for your loved ones.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:05]: Celebrate the progress that you've made this year because every step forward, no matter how small, is worth celebrating. And if you're setting goals for the new year, remember that as you prepare to be a graduate student, you truly are victors rising to meet challenges with determination and resilience. I wanna thank each of you for being a part of this journey with us. Your dedication to learning, growing, and achieving inspires me. And I'm honored to share this space with you. From all of us here at the University of Michigan Flint and the Victors in Grad School podcast, we wish you a joyful holiday season and a very happy new year. We'll talk to you again in 2025. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is an adventure, a transformative journey that pushes individuals to explore new horizons and discover their true potential. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Christina Blitchok, Director of Alumni Engagement at the University of Michigan Flint, to unpack her unique journey from undergraduate studies to a fulfilling career path, underscoring the value of flexibility and perseverance in education.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Studies From English Major to Education Advocate

Christina’s academic journey began with a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from Albion College. Despite the common perception that an English degree naturally leads to a career in education, Christina initially had no intentions of teaching. It wasn’t until her year with AmeriCorps, working as a reading fluency tutor in California’s Coachella Valley, that she discovered her passion for education. Inspired by the impact she could have in the classroom, Christina returned to Michigan determined to pursue a Master's in Education, compounded with a secondary certification at the University of Michigan Flint.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program Why University of Michigan Flint?

In her conversation with Dr. Lewis, Christina elaborated on her decision to enroll at the University of Michigan Flint. Familiarity with the campus and its intimate, collaborative learning environment played significant roles in her choice. The program’s affordability and the accessible, supportive faculty made it an ideal setting for her intensive studies. Working directly with faculty and gaining real-world experience taught Christina invaluable lessons that would shape her career.

Transitioning and Thriving in Graduate School Learning to Adapt and Overcome

Christina emphasized the transition from undergraduate to graduate studies as a critical period of self-discovery and adaptation. Unlike the lecture-based format of many undergrad courses, her graduate experience was collaborative and discussion-driven. This shift challenged her preconceived notions and honed her ability to engage with diverse perspectives. She also highlighted the need for practical time management skills, given the life changes she navigated, including working part-time and planning a wedding while studying.

Career Pivot After Graduation Embracing Change and New Opportunities

After earning her degree, Christina spent three years teaching high school before realizing that her career needed to pivot due to personal circumstances, including the birth of her first child. Understanding the flexibility required in life and career, Christina transitioned into freelance writing and editing roles, leveraging the skills and perspectives gained during her graduate studies. Today, she works in marketing communications and alumni engagement, continuously applying the critical thinking and empathy fostered during her education.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students Keys to Success in Graduate School

Concluding her interview, Christina imparted valuable advice for prospective graduate students:

1. Seek Mentorship Early

: Establish connections with faculty and cohort members who can provide support and accountability. 2. Stay Flexible

: Remain open to experiences and willing to evolve. 3. Combat Impostor Syndrome

: Recognize that everyone is learning and growing. 4. Develop Effective Study Habits

: Tailor your approach to suit your unique needs and circumstances.

Christina’s story is a testament to the transformative power of graduate education. By embracing flexibility, seeking mentorship, and staying open to new opportunities, she exemplifies how one can successfully navigate and thrive in the ever-evolving landscape of academia and beyond.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. I call it a journey because it is a journey and you are on a journey as you're thinking about graduate school, as you're thinking about the next steps for yourself, as you're thinking about where you are in this continuum of thinking about graduate school, you could be at the very beginning. You might just be starting to think about, I think I might need additional education to be able to get that job that I've always wanted to move into that career, to be able to move up in a career, to get that promotion, to be able to do different things. Everybody has a different reason for wanting to look at that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: You could be someone that has already applied. You might have already applied and maybe, maybe you got accepted and now you're saying, is this the right step? Am I doing the right thing? I've gotten accepted. Do I want to make this jump? You could be in graduate school. Maybe at the very beginning, you could be getting closer to the end and seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. And no matter where you are, this podcast was built to help you to be able to find success in that journey. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that give you an opportunity to be able to look at graduate school in a little bit different way. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Christina Blitchok is with us today and is the director of alumni engagement at the University of Michigan Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:45]: And Christina did her undergraduate work at Albion University and then Nope, Albion College. She did her undergraduate work at Albion College and then decided to get a master's of education degree at the University of Michigan Flint. So we're gonna be talking about that journey that she went on, learn a little bit more about her, and I'm really excited to have her here. Christina, thanks so much for being here today. I

Christina Blitchok [00:02:10]: am so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be here with you today and to learn a little bit more about your journey. And speaking of the journey, I wanna go back in time. I talked about the fact that you got a bachelor's degree in English language and literature at Albion College. And when you finish that, there was a little bit of time and then you made a decision to go back to school. And I know within that you, you jumped in, you got a little bit of experience. You did some work, you did some work after college where you used that English degree to be able to do some editing work, and then you were doing some English instruction. And so bring me back in time and bring me back to that point where you just said to yourself, I've gotta make that step.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:54]: Why did you decide to go to graduate school?

Christina Blitchok [00:02:56]: Well, it's actually kind of funny when I was getting my English degree at Albion, everyone asked me, are you going to go into education? Because English is one of those degrees that, people pursue it because they love it, and there's not necessarily a very clear career path, after graduation. And my response when I was in college was a vehement no. I will never be a teacher. I will never go into education. It's just not something that I saw for myself at that point. But I think if I've learned anything, it's never say never. And that different experiences and different perspectives can really change your trajectory if you're open to it, if you hold things loosely and just kind of follow where your passions and your experiences lead you. So, after I graduated from Albion, I didn't have a clear a clear direction.

Christina Blitchok [00:03:52]: I thought about publishing, but publishing is unfortunately a really hard industry to get into right now. So I decided that I didn't wanna be idle and I didn't want to fall into a trap of jobs that I didn't necessarily feel passionate about. I'm kind of one of those people who needs to be passionate about their work, find meaning in it. I knew that I wasn't destined for, you know, punching a 9 to 5 job. So I enlisted in AmeriCorps, and I wanted to get out of Michigan. I love travel. So I actually signed up for an opportunity in Indio, California serving the Coachella Valley and English language learners in elementary school as a reading fluency tutor. And I should have anticipated it, but I fell in love with education.

Christina Blitchok [00:04:39]: And I fell in love with the impact that you can have on individual students' lives as an educator. So when I came back after my year in AmeriCorps, I had a fire lit under me, and I wanted to pursue education. And one of the things that pointed me to grad school was the incredible opportunity that University of Michigan Flint had in combining a master's in education with a secondary certification. So I didn't need to go back and start from square 1 and, get an undergrad degree in a in education and then be able to get certified, but I could combine the 2 and really dive deep in a really, really shortened but intense time frame. And I loved my experience there. It was it was a wonderful opportunity. It was a great decision. And I really appreciated the flexibility that it allowed and just building on things that I had learned in my undergrad, and then kind of propelling me forward much faster than going back and starting from square one would have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:44]: So talk to me a little bit about the decision, the decision that you made to go to the University of Michigan Flint. There are a number of different programs, not only in the state of Michigan, but beyond that offer the credential that you receive to be able to take a degree and turn it into something that you could teach. And the University of Michigan Flint's had one for a number of years, and you ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But as go back to that point where you were making those decisions, what were you looking for? What made you decide that University of Michigan Flint was the right program for you?

Christina Blitchok [00:06:17]: Right. So I grew up in Fenton, which is about 20 minutes south of Flint. And I had been on U of M Flint's campus all throughout my life with different competitions and different camps. And so it was a place that felt familiar and felt comfortable for me, but I also loved the passion behind this particular program. It was just so much more personal. I was able to talk to the adviser right away. I was able to talk to some of the faculty because in a master's course, you are so personal, and it's so intimate, or in my experience, it was so getting to know those personalities and being able to talk to them 1 on 1 while I was making the decision of where to apply was really beneficial to me that I that I knew that that their perspective and their personalities were ones that I could see myself really diving deep with the affordability was also there. You know, going back to school just like a year and a half, 2 years after getting out of undergrad at especially at like a private school like Albion, affordability was a big factor.

Christina Blitchok [00:07:30]: But then I also was able to work on campus during my time, and I was actually an English instructor for a Saturday camp, the health professions school had for high school students. So I was able to get real world experience on top of my coursework. And I think that that would have really only happened as easily as it did a place like University of Michigan Flint, where it's smaller, everyone knows you, they know what you're looking for, they can help connect you. And the collaborative nature is really strong at this smaller sort of university. So talk to me about AmeriCorps,

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:06]: because that's not a topic that we've talked a lot about in this podcast, podcast, but it is an opportunity. It is something that someone can take advantage of, whether it's right after an undergraduate experience, right after a graduate school experience that they could take advantage of to be able to use their degree, their education in a different way. Talk to me about what made you decide that you wanted to do that and use that English degree in that way and what you had to do to be able to be a part of that program.

Christina Blitchok [00:08:38]: I'm a researcher and I like having a plan. So I took the summer after I got my undergrad degree and just researched all of my options. In that time, I applied for some jobs. I looked into some internships, and I landed on AmeriCorps. The way that it was pitched to me is it's the domestic branch of the like the Peace Corps. And that combination of service and service and vocation was really attractive to me. I do. I did love working with kids.

Christina Blitchok [00:09:13]: I loved my dad's family was Hispanic. So I loved the idea of getting in touch with some of my cultural roots and being in being in an underserved community. And I really just wanted to broaden my horizons. Flint actually has a lot of great AmeriCorps opportunities, but it was a little close to home for me. So I I wanted to get out there and I wanted to learn learn things that I hadn't necessarily learned in the classroom in my predominantly white private liberal arts school. So that opportunity to expand my experiences and my perspectives. The process was relatively easy. AmeriCorps had at that time.

Christina Blitchok [00:09:55]: I'm not I haven't been on the website since, but they had a pretty great search function where you could search any you could filter down the type of opportunities that you were looking for based on location, based on based on the type of opportunity, if you wanted to be an education, if you wanted to be a nonprofit. So I was able to narrow it down. And then this opportunity in the Coachella Valley really stuck out to me. I was born in California, although on the western coast. So it was some place that was relatively familiar. I had some family in LA at the time, so it wasn't it was getting me out of my comfort zone, but was still a safety net. And then the education factor, being able to use my English degree, being able to learn more about the fundamentals of reading that I'd kind of taken for granted, you know, 4 years into writing papers and reading Britlet. So yeah, it was a relatively easy experience from first deciding that AmeriCorps was something that I wanted to pursue to getting my acceptance.

Christina Blitchok [00:10:55]: It was in the span of a month or 2. And then I was packing up and driving across the country with all of my belongings. So it was a great experience. I'm very thankful for it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:05]: Now we already talked about the fact that you made the choice after AmeriCorps to go back to school to get that teaching degree. And you chose to go to the University of Michigan, Flint. Now as you make those transitions, transitions from undergrad to grad, it is a transition and there are things that you have to learn along the way to be able to be successful in that transition. But you were successful. You found success in graduate school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that graduate school journey?

Christina Blitchok [00:11:39]: On a kind of ideological level, in grad school, I had to confront a lot of my a lot of my biases, a lot of my preconceived notions about how the world works. I feel like there's a level of hubris when you get your undergrad degree that gets torn down pretty quickly when you're in grad school. You know, just that higher level of of research, that higher level of thinking, that pushback that faculty gives you. So going into conversations, especially with cohort members, like cohort members can sharpen you and and really help you grow by adding in their different perspectives. A lot of my undergrad courses were lecture style. They we were just absorbing expertise from a faculty member. And then really a lot of our own analysis was done individually where my grad school experience was very collaborative. We would read a text and then we would come ready to discuss it, ready to share opinions, ready to disagree on things.

Christina Blitchok [00:12:48]: So that was not something that I was very used to. And being able to find my voice in that sort of situation, being able to kind of synthesize my thoughts and rather than write a flowery paper about them, be able to argue with them with someone, who had different experiences than I did. That was difficult at first. Also just the academic side. My undergrad experience was kind of in a bubble. I was there to study. I didn't I had a very part time campus job, but for the most part, my entire world was focused around academics where in my grad school experience, I was working part time while balancing studies. I was getting engaged.

Christina Blitchok [00:13:33]: I was planning a wedding. There was a lot of life that I had to balance things with. So my studying habits had to change. It wasn't just gonna happen on a quiet night after I got home from whatever campus activity, like it needed to be scheduled. It needed to be more regimented and it needed to be more flexible. I couldn't be so precious about my study and surroundings and you know, waiting for my favorite table in the library to open up like it needed to happen when it happened. And that was a great lesson in flexibility.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:05]: So one of the questions that I'm going to ask you is this because you did complete your degree, and you went off, and you taught for a few years, and then you left education. So talk to me about getting that degree, using it, but then pivoting and finding that maybe being in a classroom was not where you were meant to be, but that a different path was right for you.

Christina Blitchok [00:14:33]: I loved the 3 years that I spent in a classroom. I felt like I was very well prepared and it was everything that I hoped that I would be. I loved that impact that I had on students. I loved the relationships that came out of it. I loved the creativity of lesson planning and building curriculum, but I actually left the class room when, you know, I talked earlier about flexibility and being able to pivot and how different different experiences and perspectives can kinda change your trajectory if you're open to it. And I got pregnant with my first child, and I felt the need to pivot in that moment. And I think that my journey up until that point, not knowing what I wanted to do, feeling led to education, doing my grad school experience and then teaching, like, it kind of was a perfect setup to I wasn't completely thrown off course by the idea of taking a moment to figure out if teaching was still right for me. Like, it wasn't as scary as it would have been if I had come out of undergrad with a very firm idea of what I wanted to do and then not being able to deviate from that.

Christina Blitchok [00:15:47]: It's funny, like my degree is in education, but I feel like I still use a lot of what I learned in my grad school experience, if only because my experience in my master's course opened my eyes so much to experiences that were not my own. You know, a lot of my coursework was in Detroit Schools and kind of the unbalanced education system and, you know, the systemic problems that I was very unaware of growing up in suburbia. And it's something that I continue to be passionate about today. It's something that makes me really passionate about the city of Flint, where I ended up landing and living and raising my family. So I am still thankful for my master's degree and my coursework even if my trajectory pivoted. It's something that enriched enriched my perspectives. It shaped who I am and the skills that I learned in research and collaboration and being open to other people's perspectives is something that's gonna serve me even when I'm retired and out of a career altogether. So after I decided that the classroom was not going to be a place where just in my personality, I'm very introverted.

Christina Blitchok [00:17:02]: I gave my everything to my students and it left very little for my outside life. So I transitioned to more freelance and editing, freelance writing, and allowed me to stay home when my children were young. And then I started working hybrid in more like marketing communications engagement roles. And I think that my experience in my getting my grad degree really helped with that role because it allowed me to really listen to other people's stories, to learn from other people's experiences, and then be able to connect with them even if there was differences. So yeah, and now I'm here and I'm loving it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:42]: So talk to me about what you have taken out of that graduate degree that you find that you're using on a regular basis in the work that you're doing today?

Christina Blitchok [00:17:52]: I think that working in a place especially like U of M Flint, really my experiences and and all that I learned really set me up well to understand not only our incoming students, I was a senior English teacher in high school. So the students that are joining us in the fall are exactly like the students that I saw and waved out the door every May. So I understand their thought processes. I understand what they're looking for. I understand how many of them see themselves as academics, the wounds that they have, the wounds that growing up in the education system can inflict on you, things that they believe about themselves. I understand the impact that faculty and staff can have on student experiences and then how that translates into alumni experiences. I understand that one positive relationship can really change the trajectory of someone's academic career. One person that roots for them, one person that believes in them, one person that says I see you and I understand you, that can really have ripples of impact for years to come.

Christina Blitchok [00:19:01]: And I saw it as a high school teacher. I see it now working in higher education. My ability to collaborate with people who don't agree with me, that comes from my experience in my grad program. Being able to empathize and honor other people's stories, even if they don't reflect my own. That came from my experience in my grad program. My ability to put aside personal opinions to come to a solution that came from my coursework. And then just my awareness of a world outside of my own experience that came from my coursework as well. And the willingness to be self aware enough if I'm not looking beyond my own experiences.

Christina Blitchok [00:19:50]: So there's practical things. I think that I'm a much more focused person, I learned how to hack my personality and be able to, you know, be able to get things done even when life is crazy and manic because my life definitely reflects more my grad school experiences rather than my undergrad. I've not been in the same sort of bubble. So So just being able to to get work done, to prioritize tasks, prioritize my own learning, no matter what else is going on around me has been really helpful every day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:22]: Now as you look back at your graduate education, and you think about others that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Christina Blitchok [00:20:34]: Lean into mentorship right away. Start identifying people whether it be faculty or staff that you feel like would be able to support you and keep you accountable and give you that example of what's possible after you graduate. Don't wait until you're struggling to reach out for help. It's much easier to front load that support. Don't hesitate to make connections with your fellow cohort members. Don't listen to the voice of impostor syndrome. Nobody knows what they're doing. That's a secret that I learned only recently.

Christina Blitchok [00:21:14]: Nobody knows what they're doing. So don't be afraid to ask questions to be vulnerable, lack of vulnerability, The only thing that it achieves is closing you off to learning and growing. So you don't need to have things figured out. You don't need to have all of your ducks in a row to apply or to start a degree a lot. And in fact, I I think that you're going to be much more successful if you walk in open to experiences and open to where your coursework might lead you and that nothing is wasted. No experience is wasted if you've learned something and if you carry something from that experience with you. And then just practically find study habits, find times, find find resources that work for you even if they don't look the way that you think they should, or if they don't look the same as your other cohort members or find something that that speaks to you and that works for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:10]: Well, Christina, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and all that you've learned along the way in this journey that you've had thus far, and I truly wish you all the best.

Christina Blitchok [00:22:21]: Well, thank you so much for having me. This is great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:24]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Navigating Emotional and Psychological Barriers with Juanita Tookes In this week's University of Michigan's Victors in Grad School podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis has Dr. Juanita Tookes, Assistant Director of CAPS, discuss the often-ignored but highly prevalent issue of imposter syndrome. Together, they uncover the intricacies of this phenomenon and explore effective strategies for overcoming it.

Understanding Imposter Syndrome Imposter syndrome affects a staggering 70% of individuals at some point in their lives, manifesting as a persistent feeling of being a fraud despite clear evidence of one’s achievements. Dr. Lewis underscores its ubiquity among graduate students and professionals, emphasizing how these feelings can lead to self-doubt, harsh self-critique, and even self-sabotage.

Juanita Tookes explains that societal stereotypes, particularly those related to family dynamics and cultural expectations, can exacerbate feelings of inadequacy. She highlights how marginalized groups, especially those with intersectional identities, often feel the added pressure of proving themselves in professional and academic spaces.

Recognizing Different Types of Imposters Understanding the different manifestations of imposter syndrome is crucial for developing tailored coping mechanisms. Tookes categorizes imposters into five types:

• Natural Genius:

Believes that their knowledge is never sufficient, resulting in an endless quest for more information. * Perfectionist:

Feels that their work is never flawless, leading to constant stress and anxiety. * Expert:

Constantly strives to prove their expertise, fearing being perceived as unknowledgeable. * Super Person:

Avoids asking for help to maintain an image of self-sufficiency. * Soloist:

Prefers to work alone to hide any perceived inadequacies.

Combatting Imposter Syndrome To combat imposter syndrome, Juanita Tookes offers several practical strategies. One key method is to reframe thinking patterns, shifting negative self-talk toward positive beliefs and actions. Embracing positive feedback and focusing on personal achievements, no matter the size, can significantly boost self-esteem.

Reframing Perceptions: From Fear to Excitement A crucial insight shared involves the body’s inability to differentiate between fear and excitement. According to Tookes, recognizing this can help individuals cognitively reframe their experiences and interpret them positively. This perspective shift can prevent fear from dominating their mindset.

Avoiding Comparisons A pervasive issue exacerbated by social media is the tendency to compare oneself to others. Both the host and guest stress the importance of staying focused on one’s unique path and capabilities, as comparison often leads to a distorted view of self-worth.

Embracing Self-Compassion and Growth Self-compassion is essential when dealing with imposter syndrome. Tookes emphasizes the importance of acknowledging personal efforts and progress. She encourages listeners to confront their inner critic and take pride in doing their best, rather than succumbing to self-criticism.

The Value of Mistakes in Learning Mistakes are an inevitable part of growth and should be viewed as valuable learning opportunities. Tookes advises individuals to adopt a growth mindset, where challenges are seen as stepping stones rather than obstacles.

Final Thoughts Overcoming imposter syndrome requires a multi-faceted approach, combining self-compassion, positive self-affirmation, and a growth mindset. By reframing perceptions and celebrating personal achievements, individuals can navigate the emotional and psychological challenges associated with imposter syndrome and embrace their true potential.

For more insights and practical advice, tune into the full episode of Victors in Grad School where Juanita Tookes offers invaluable guidance on facing and overcoming imposter syndrome.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Hello, everyone. Thanks so much for being here today. I'm doctor Lewis, director of Michigan Flint. And I want to say thank you for coming today to learn about this important topic, imposter syndrome. So many times I talk to students, whether they're in their first term or they're in later terms, you know, imposter syndrome always creeps in and it's definitely something that as graduate students that we always feel at least once in our graduate school experience. When we're learning new things, when we're asked to put our skills to the test, no matter what it is, there's always that little whisper in our ear that tends to hit us. I mean, and and that doesn't stop in grad school. I hate to say it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]: It doesn't stop. It it continues on as you get into your professional lives and do it and such, but there are things that you can do to mitigate that and help with that. And today, Juanita Tooks is with us today. And Juanita is our Assistant Director of CAPS. And I've had the great opportunity to be able to have her on doing some different presentations in the past. And she's great. You're gonna love hearing from her today. But I'm really excited to have her here to talk to you about this important topic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:26]: And I'm gonna turn it over to her. Juanita, thanks so much for being here today.

Juanita Tookes [00:01:29]: Thank you so much for having me. Let's get into talking about imposter syndrome because that's something that everybody experiences. And I was reading some research about, I think about there was a research study, in which 70% of the population of that study had said and reported that they had experienced or were experiencing imposter syndrome. 70% is a large number. So it just goes to show that this is something that's common. It's not permanent. And we're gonna talk about what it is and how to navigate it. It's before you can have any solutions to anything, you have to understand the problem.

Juanita Tookes [00:02:05]: You have to understand the nature. You have to understand the origin. But we can't be stuck there. Once we have an understanding of what's going on, that's when we can better identify how we can navigate with solutions. So let's get into talking about imposter syndrome and what that involves. So what is it? So imposter syndrome is a psychological experience. So it's feeling like you are a fraud. And I want to really highlight the fact that it's a psychological experience because it means that there's a lot of different things, lot of different thoughts and perceptions going on in your mind about your own abilities, your own capabilities, maybe what other people think of you.

Juanita Tookes [00:02:44]: It's one of those things to whereas the mind is truly a battlefield. There is a lot that goes on in here. So with this experience of feeling like a fraud, this is based off of what a person thinks about how they have attained what they have. So as you can see from the picture on the right, you have a person who is getting excellent grades. They have certificates, they have degrees, they have accolades. They're getting praise. Good job. They're very productive, very innovative.

Juanita Tookes [00:03:12]: But look at the person's face. Right? Even though they have all of these things, it seems like the facial expression doesn't quite match everything that they have. And so this is what imposter syndrome looks like, whereas you have to put on a face and act like that you agree with everything everybody is saying about you, but internally, you don't agree because you don't feel worthy. You don't feel deserving. You don't feel like you actually had what it took to get what you have. So you wanna make sure that you are evaluating your belief system about yourself because this is based on a person's beliefs about their achievements. Despite contradicting evidence that supports a person's accomplishments, the fear of being found out as a phony is very, very real. Imposter syndrome is something that's really difficult to deal with because like the last point highlighted, there is evidence.

Juanita Tookes [00:04:02]: You got into graduate school, you got the acceptance letter, you submitted the documentation to prove that you have what it takes to be successful as a UN Flint grad student, but you still feel like I don't deserve to be here. Maybe it was just a stroke of luck. They just needed to fill out the program, so they just let me in. So again, it's you battling with you in your own mind about great things that you're doing. So it's not enough to just have the accolades and the praise and the grades and the certificates and all of that. Your belief in yourself also has has to match that. Because if there's a mismatch, it does it doesn't matter. You can make straight a's every semester.

Juanita Tookes [00:04:41]: If you don't believe in yourself, then you're always going to make an excuse as to why what you have is something that's undeserving of you. So in the last point, it talked about this fear of being found out as a phony. Right? So imposter syndrome can elicit different feelings and thoughts and behaviors, including self doubt, harsh self critique, self sabotage, pushing yourself way too hard, comparing yourself to others, difficulty accepting praise, rejecting praise, minimizing success, and creating very high standards. So it's one of those things to whereas when we talk about all of these different feelings, sometimes people feel as though they have to prove to other people that they deserve to be where they are, even though the evidence speaks for itself. When you don't believe in yourself, you will put yourself in a position to feel as though you have to prove to other people that you deserve to be in this program, that you deserve this job. And the whole thing about that is it's unnecessary. You really don't have to prove anything to anyone, but there's reasons for this too, that we're going to get into a little bit later in the presentation as to what other external factors go into a person feeling like they have to prove themselves. But if you think about creating high standards and pushing yourself way too hard and critiquing yourself really, really tough, this can also provoke feelings of anxiety because of the intense pressure that you're putting on yourself.

Juanita Tookes [00:06:07]: And of course, along with anxiety, there's other mental health obstacles that can manifest from imposter syndrome. And anxiety is a very intense emotion. It requires a lot of emotional energy to to be anxious. And after feeling so much prolonged anxiety, this may also lead to depression, which is you basically fizzling out. You've been so nervous and you've been so anxious and you've been so worried and you've been so concerned and you've been so on edge to whereas now you're fizzling out and just feeling sad and maybe you're having pity parties for yourself. Maybe you're just really feeling like withdrawn. Maybe you should quit. Maybe you should give up.

Juanita Tookes [00:06:45]: So these mental health obstacles can continue to manifest in negative ways if we don't address this issue. So the key to all of this, and I said this in the last slide, is you have to re examine and reevaluate your belief about yourself. Do you And I think the, the question that I'm asking the audience today is, do you believe in yourself? I don't think that this is a question that we often take time to ask, but when we're talking about imposter syndrome and how many people actually experience this, this is a very key question. And you have to be honest with yourself. Do you believe in yourself? Do you believe that you can do this? Do you believe that you can pass this class? Do you believe that you can be successful? And if the answer is yes, great. But if the answer is no, I would also say that's it's a positive thing in a way because at least you are being honest with yourself about where you are with your belief system. And the good news about that is that you can change that system. You can change that belief.

Juanita Tookes [00:07:42]: Okay. So we have some illustrations here that kind of show another outside perspective of imposter syndrome. So if we look at the comic strip on the left, you see a person who's sitting there, and they're receiving a lot of positive feedback. Look at all of the positive speech bubbles there. And the person is like, I guess. You know, I okay. But then you look in the bottom, on the bottom of that same strip, the person receives one negative comment, and that's what they feed into. You're right.

Juanita Tookes [00:08:11]: I'm a failure. It's true. It's one of those things to whereas as a society, as a world, we can receive 100 of 100 of positive compliments and accolades and praise, but we are used to just feeding into the negative. And this is how you start to change your beliefs about yourself. What do you choose to, to pay attention to? Let's just say that you get your test back. You took an exam, you get your test back. You got most of the questions, right? You got 2 questions wrong. You're focusing on those 2 questions.

Juanita Tookes [00:08:43]: I used to work with students as an academic advisor, so I'm very used to students focusing on the minimal and maximizing it. That was a stupid answer. I don't know why I said that. Even though they passed the exam, still did very well, they're focusing on 2 questions that they wish they would have answered in a different way instead of just saying, hey. I got 2 questions wrong. I passed the test. I'm very proud of myself because I studied really hard. We tend to really focus on the negative and dismiss the positive.

Juanita Tookes [00:09:11]: When you look at the the comic on the right, you have 3 people here. This is doctor Adams. She's a social psychologist and the world's top expert on imposter syndrome. And the doctor says, don't be silly. There are lots of scholars who've made more significant. Oh my god. And, basically, she's saying, oh my god. I'm doing it.

Juanita Tookes [00:09:29]: I'm a world renowned expert on imposter syndrome, yet I am showing imposter syndrome in this in this conversation right now. So let's talk about the types of imposters. So we have 5 different categories here. And when we talk about the person who is the natural genius, this is somebody who believes that everything that comes natural to them is pretty much not enough as far as knowledge. There's always more that I can know. There's always more information. This person is typically not satisfied with the knowledge that they have. And I think to a certain extent, that's okay.

Juanita Tookes [00:10:04]: But when you're not letting up on yourself to appreciate all that you do know, you put yourself in a position to say, it's never going to be good enough. I have to know more. I have to know more. And if you think about it, there is no person in this world who knows every single thing. So you have to be okay with the amount of knowledge that you have in a given situation, in a given circumstance. If you want to learn more, that's great. But you don't want to put it in the, in the perspective of, I have to know more because I need to know more because I don't know enough. The perfectionist.

Juanita Tookes [00:10:39]: I will be the 1st to raise my hand and say, I am a recovering perfectionist. With these individuals, what you're doing is not good enough. So with the natural genius, the knowledge that you have isn't enough as far as volume, as far as what's already there. You could learn more. With a perfectionist, you can do better. Like, I know you spent all night on this project, but I am going to nitpick, and this is not good, and that's not great. You could have said this better. This could look better.

Juanita Tookes [00:11:06]: Again, this is putting intense pressure on you to be perfect. And just like I said that there is no one person that knows every single thing, there is nothing in this world that is perfect. Everything has error to it. As flawless as it might look or be experienced, there is no one thing that is perfect. That is a very, very high and unrealistic bar to try to reach. And when you put yourself under the pressure of being perfect, it can really put you in a mental state of just anxiety and high intense level stress. When we talk about the expert, this is someone who they feel as though they have to be an expert to show and prove to the world that they are capable of having knowledge and being able to talk about certain things. If I don't sound like an expert, that means I might sound like a fool.

Juanita Tookes [00:11:53]: If I don't sound like this, if I don't know this, if I don't understand every aspect of this concept, then I might be looked at as someone who is insufficient or deficient in knowledge. And you can see a lot of related components when we talk about the types of imposters. The super person, that's the person who says, if I have to ask for help, then I'm weak. I'm inferior. I have to show the world that I can achieve success all on my own. I don't need help from my teachers. I don't need tutoring. I don't need to talk to an academic adviser.

Juanita Tookes [00:12:26]: I don't need to ask for help from my professors. I don't need to be in a study group. Like, I don't need any help at all. I'm gonna take all of this on because if I have to ask for help, that means that that's gonna be a sign that people know that I shouldn't be here. I shouldn't be in this place if I'm asking for help. An example that's kind of outside of the student realm is even in my role, when I first got into this role, I talk with my team about the fact that I know I'm gonna make mistakes and I'm gonna ask questions. If I was a person who was a super person, I'm also a recovering super person as well. I would say, hey, given my title of assistant director, you don't ask for help.

Juanita Tookes [00:13:04]: You're the one who's supposed to have all the answers. You're the one who's supposed to know everything. If you ask for help, that's gonna make you look like you don't know what you're doing. These are very realistic examples of how people think through things in their mind because they don't wanna be looked at as a fake or a fraud or a phony. The soloist is the person who is like, I can just I can just handle it all on my own. Like, I can just I can just hang by myself. I can this is I I when I think about the soloist, I think about, like, the independent student, the student who doesn't wanna really work in groups, who really doesn't want to network, the student who's just kind of like a loner. Because, again, associating with other people and maybe partnering to work more efficiently, it could kinda show that maybe I can't get things done on my own, and this would confirm that I am indeed a fraud, and I do not need to be in the place that I am right now.

Juanita Tookes [00:13:55]: So I think it's important to also talk about origins as far as what contributes and causes imposter syndrome. Family dynamics, how you were raised, the messages that were communicated in your home environment, cultural expectations and stereotypes. This is something that's very important. When I was in grad school, I went to predominantly white colleges. And so given the history of black people, not being able to experience the opportunities of higher education for 100 and 100 of years, there was the stereotype that black people were inferior, that they were not capable. We were not capable of learning or attaining any higher type of education. And so sometimes even unconsciously, certain stereotypes that belong to a cultural group or ethnicity, or maybe just expectations of your culture can put into your mind. This thing that I have to prove, I have to prove that I'm not inferior.

Juanita Tookes [00:14:52]: I have to prove that that I'm intellectual. I know, you know, the trajectory of, you know, of history has shown that, you know, certain groups of people may think of certain things about me and my capabilities, but I am gonna show and I'm gonna prove you wrong. That is an intense level of pressure to put yourself under as far as proving people wrong. I had to realize in my experience that even though my ancestors were not able to have the opportunities to pursue a higher education like me, times were indeed different to a certain extent. And even though things like racism and discrimination still exist because I did experience those things in grad school, I still had to realize that times were much better than what my ancestors were in. And I did not have to prove anything to anyone. I could work hard and work diligently and celebrate myself, but I did not have to prove to anyone that I was smart or intelligent. So sometimes we have to be come, we have to be more aware culturally, racially, ethnically about maybe expectations that are put on us or certain generational messages that we may have unconsciously ascribed to so that we're not putting undue pressure on ourselves to work way harder than we should be.

Juanita Tookes [00:16:06]: Personality traits, existing mental health concerns. So if you're already having some, mental health struggles and maybe you have, a history of experiencing some mental health obstacles, this could also make you feel like you don't deserve to be in certain places, like a graduate program, a certain job position, for example. And mental health obstacles do not disqualify you. I just wanna say that. Because a lot of people experience I wanna say, if I could safely say it, I don't have research to back this up, but everyone has had a mental health obstacle in their lives. I can bet you. Everyone has. As far as how that manifests and shows up in the length of time, intensity, severity, frequency, that all differs.

Juanita Tookes [00:16:47]: But I can tell you that I I wanna say that every person has had some type of mental health Nicole, and that does not disqualify you from being successful. New opportunities and responsibilities. Right? Stepping into a new role, stepping into a higher level of education, like going from undergrad to grad. This can make you feel a little fearful because things are new and the ante has been upped. You know what I mean? And so when we start to feel that pressure, we might start to tell ourselves that maybe this is too much for us. Maybe we weren't ready. Maybe I shouldn't apply for this program. Maybe this major is too hard.

Juanita Tookes [00:17:20]: You know, maybe I should have waited. So new things can also contribute to imposter syndrome. Intersectional identities in certain spaces. I think it's very important to recognize that we have intersectional ident identities, multiple layers of who we are, which can make it difficult in certain spaces. I am a black woman. You can't separate me being black from me being a woman. And so because I am aware that I belong to 2 marginalized groups, I have to realize that my intersectional identity in certain spaces may be perceived in certain ways, which I have experienced before. But just because other people might have an issue with my identities, I cannot feed into that by saying, you know what? What these people might think about me is probably right.

Juanita Tookes [00:18:04]: Like, I am a black woman in engineering. I should not be in an engineering program because this is typically for men. You know, me being a woman, I should probably go into another field because I'm gonna have a very difficult time here. I'm the only woman in my class or, you know, something like that. Like, this is how I our intersectional identities and our own perceptions about ourselves and what we believe about ourselves can show up and possibly put us off track for success. So we wanna make sure that we are aware of all of these things so that we can navigate and overcome so that we can continue on the path that we wanna be on to be successful and attain what we want out of life. So now that we've talked about the nature of imposter syndrome, what it is, how it shows up, what contributes to it. Now we we wanna talk about solutions and how to overcome that.

Juanita Tookes [00:18:54]: So reframing is a very powerful skill in counseling. I often use this skill with my clients. Let's just imagine that they're looking at a picture this way. I'm not changing anything about the picture, but what I'm going to do is offer them a different angle so that they can look at it another way. And that's basically what reframing is. In order to stop feeling like an imposter, you have to stop thinking like an imposter, because it all starts from what you are thinking about yourself. Your thoughts feed into your beliefs. Your beliefs feed into your actions.

Juanita Tookes [00:19:28]: Your actions determine how you show up in certain spaces and in certain rooms. It determines what you decide to pursue and not to pursue. So in a way, you have to really you have to set a line with yourself to choose how you're going to think about a given experience. I was reading, some research when I first created this presentation that I thought was extremely interesting. The body can't differentiate between the feelings of fear and excitement. So physical responses to both feelings are very similar. Your nervous system becomes aroused, and you know this because of the physical sensations you feel inside of your body. Your body tells you how you're feeling, but you have to tell your mind how to mentally interpret the experience.

Juanita Tookes [00:20:13]: I'm just going to kind of let that sink in for just a second because that's pretty powerful. When I read it, I was like, oh my gosh, you have to tell your, your mind how to interpret this experience because your physical body will not be able to tell the difference. And I want you to think about moments where you have felt excited and moments where you have felt fear or afraid. And I want you to think about the similarities in those body sensations. They pretty much feel the same way. So if your body can't tell you what's going on, you have to tell you what's going on. Because if you don't tell your mind how to interpret this experience, if your mind is good, your, the gap in your mind is going to be filled with fear, fear has no problem filling in the gap and telling you this opportunity. This is something that you need to be very, very afraid of.

Juanita Tookes [00:21:04]: I know you haven't taken a graduate level class before, and you're feeling really nervous. This is something that's very, you should be very, very afraid. That's how you should feel. That's what fear will tell you. But what I'm going to tell you in this presentation is you have the power to tell your mind something different. You can tell your mind, wow, I've never been to graduate school before. I've never taken this type of class before, but you know what? I'm a little nervous, but I'm excited to learn something new. And I know at the end of this, I'm going to pass this class.

Juanita Tookes [00:21:36]: I'm going to pass this class. You have the power to change the narrative in your mind from a narrative of fear to a narrative of success and excitement about all that you're going to achieve with this new experience. So I think this is probably one of the most powerful slides in this presentation, because with this, I always like to emphasize the power that you have, just because your body can't tell the difference. That doesn't mean that you leave the gap in your mind empty to only be filled with something fearful. You do have the power to tell yourself that even though I'm feeling a little shaky, I am going to be successful. And this is something that is going to it's it's it's exciting. It's new. I'm going to do this.

Juanita Tookes [00:22:17]: I got this. So some more solutions as well that's going to help counter the negative impact that with imposter syndrome is celebrating your wins. I don't think people do that enough. I mean, I think there's certain things and certain times where people know they need to celebrate something like birthdays, graduations, maybe job promotions. But there's so many other windows and spaces in your life that can be filled with celebrating wins. If you have met a personal goal, and we're not talking about big and small goals, a goal is a goal. You know what I mean? Your personal goal might be to get more physical activity in your schedule. So instead of driving to certain places, maybe you're walking a little bit more, or maybe you have finally solidified a study routine that you have committed to.

Juanita Tookes [00:23:04]: And you're seeing some positive results from that. We're not talking about just celebrating after you take and pass an exam. We're talking about celebrating the fact that creating an effective study schedule was very difficult for you. But because you met with an advisor, you got some information, you you built up the discipline to study routinely, and now it's showing in your grades. That's something to celebrate, you know, before you even get the grade back on the test, celebrate the fact that you completed the test, that you studied and you finished it. Yes. You still have to wait on the grade, but you don't have to wait on the grade to celebrate the fact that you put forth a great effort, Embrace praise. A lot of times people are like blocking play praise left and right.

Juanita Tookes [00:23:48]: Instead of blocking praise, I encourage you to open up yourself to saying thank you. It's amazing to me how no matter what the compliment might be, how quick we are to dismiss and minimize positive information that we're getting about ourselves. I gave the example the last time I did this talk about I was wearing a shirt into work one day, and somebody had complimented me on the shirt. Instead of just saying thank you, I said, well, you know what? I grabbed this off of the clearance rack. You know, it was just something that I needed, you know, in a pinch. And after that interaction, I had to ask myself, why are you first of all, this person didn't need all of that information. A simple thank you would have sufficed, but then I had to sit and reflect. Why were you so quick to shoot down that compliment? Why couldn't you just say thank you? Like, do you not think that the shirt that you're wearing is nice? And so when I had this moment of reflection, I realized that I really do a lot of praise blocking instead of praise embracing.

Juanita Tookes [00:24:47]: So that is something that I wanna make you all aware of. We're all in this together. Right? Because like I said, I experienced imposter syndrome too. A lot of people do. So this is something that I have to constantly remind myself that when I get a compliment or positive feedback, when I feel that blocking coming up, I have to remind myself to go from this to this. Stop comparing is another solution. Social media is a big contributor to this. But I want you to make sure that you understand that nobody else is your measuring stick.

Juanita Tookes [00:25:17]: You do not have to and should not compare yourself to anyone because everybody is uniquely different. So if you're comparing yourself to your peer, you're comparing grades. You know, people are, everyone is a different kind of learner. Everyone doesn't study the same. Everyone doesn't, perceive information the same. So I know a lot of times students talk, and depending on what they talk about, they start to feel bad about themselves and maybe what they did do or what they didn't do or maybe what they should be doing more of, or I wish I can know these things like you. You're taking the focus off of you and your uniqueness and your greatness. And now it's shifting.

Juanita Tookes [00:25:49]: Your attention is shifting on to somebody else. And now you're looking at everything that they're doing and you want to know what they're doing. So I know it's hard to do because we are surrounded by stimuli and information all the time. So it's very easy to start comparing. But what I want to encourage and kind of gently challenge you to do is once you start feeling like you're starting to compare, and you will know that you'll start feeling that way because you'll start feeling bad about yourself, you want to nip that in the bud and say, whatever I'm looking at that's causing me to feel bad about where I am at in my life, I'm going to put the phone down. I'm going to unplug. Maybe you need to change the topic of the conversation or exit the conversation altogether, but just know that where you are is where you're supposed to be. You are a unique individual who has a unique way of thinking and being about this world.

Juanita Tookes [00:26:40]: It's not a race. You are in your own lane and there's no need to compare. Grace and compassion, very important. You want to make sure that you are being, that you're letting up on yourself and you're not being, remember in the previous slide when I talked about harsh critique and being very hard on yourself, you want to make sure just like the little picture is doing, you're giving yourself grace and compassion. When you make mistakes, it's okay. It's okay. Yesterday, I made a mistake yesterday with one of my staff. I went home, and I could feel that harsh self critique.

Juanita Tookes [00:27:10]: Why did you do that? I mean, duh. Like, the answer was clearly this. Like, why did you say this? And I had to say in that moment, I give myself grace and compassion for what was going on at that time that was the best answer that I could give. In hindsight, I could have given another answer, but I understand this context of the situation and why I did what I did. You have to give yourself grace because you're not always going to have all the answers. You're never really going to have all the answers because no one does, but give yourself grace. When you make mistakes, give yourself some understanding because depending on certain situations and certain things, maybe you couldn't have done more than you did. Maybe you studied the best you possibly could, or maybe you did all of the actions that you knew of at that time.

Juanita Tookes [00:27:54]: Like don't criticize yourself to say you should have did more and you shoulda did this. If you didn't know it at the time, there's no way you could have done it. Give yourself compassion and kindness just like you would your friend or family member or even a stranger. It's funny how we're willing to give more grace and compassion to somebody who we don't know at all versus ourselves, and we've been with ourselves our whole lives. Growth mindset. I kind of met kind of talked about some some aspects of this when I was talking about grace and compassion, but you wanna make sure that your mind stays open for growth. And an element of openness is giving yourself grace when you make mistakes and understanding that those mistakes do not define you. You wanna make sure that you have an open way of thinking compared to a rigid closed off way of thinking about yourself.

Juanita Tookes [00:28:39]: Some reminders, focus on the facts and not the fears because fears are what be that's the foundation of anxiety. Fears. Affirm yourself. Every time you experience a negative thought, I want you to affirm yourself. And affirmation is just a positive message that you give to yourself about you. I want you to practice how to affirm yourself so that you're not depending on other people to do it. It's such a strength when you have the ability to affirm yourself. Understand that failure can teach you a lot.

Juanita Tookes [00:29:06]: Failure is one of the best professors you will ever have. And I know none of us want to experience failure. But one thing I will say is that there you cannot succeed without failing. It's a part of the process. It's a part of the learning process. It's a part of the building process. It's a part of the identity formation process. Once you accept that failure is going to be one of your greatest teachers.

Juanita Tookes [00:29:29]: When you do fail at something, you will not internalize it as is as if it is a part of you or defines who you are. I am a failure. You are not a failure. You may have failed at something that's going to build you up and set you up for success the next time, But you as a person are not a failure. Self love, self care, self celebration, self work, self, self, self. It starts with you. It all comes from you. So making sure that you are loving yourself, taking care of yourself, celebrating yourself, empathizing with yourself, all of the things that you give outwardly, make sure that you are doing that for yourself.

Juanita Tookes [00:30:06]: 1st, everyone makes mistakes. Everyone. There's a reason why that, that word is capitalized. You are not the only one making mistakes. Everyone makes them. But whenever we do make a mistake, it seems as though we are the only ones anyone else would have known better. I'm the only one who probably did this. How can I do something so stupid or so silly? Trust me.

Juanita Tookes [00:30:28]: Everyone makes mistakes every single day. Mistakes are inevitable. You are going to be making mistakes for the rest of your life. I'm not saying this to be discouraging. I'm saying it because it's a fact of life. And if you think about, like I just said a little earlier, failure can teach you a lot. Mistakes can teach you a lot. They are a part of how we learn.

Juanita Tookes [00:30:48]: They're a part of how we learn. Be kind to your mind. Grad school is an, is a higher level of learning. It is gonna challenge you cognitively and intellectually, but don't crush, push your mind to the limit. Don't overwork it. Don't burn it out. If it needs a break, give it a break. If you need to take a nap, take a nap.

Juanita Tookes [00:31:06]: If you need to eat, eat. If you need to kind of push the work aside, go take a walk and come back to it. Maybe the next day, then do that. But please do not overwork your mind. You and your mind are a team in order to be successful. You have to work with it and it has to work with you. But if you are forcing your brain to stay up at all hours of the night, if you are not nourishing your body, if you're not affirming yourself with positive messages that circulate around your mind, you are putting your mind in a state of just you're being cruel. If you think about it, if you're being what's the opposite of kind, full, don't be cruel to your mind.

Juanita Tookes [00:31:41]: You are all, you are both a team. And if you are kind to your mind, you can solidify your success because you know what your limits are. Remember, don't be a super person. Everybody has limits, and it's very important for you to be aware of those limits. So you're not pushing yourself past those limits. So I wanted to include this slide. This is a little bit different, than the talk I gave before. Even though I did talk about growth mindset, I wanted to include a visualization here so you can see what a growth versus a fixed mindset looks like.

Juanita Tookes [00:32:13]: So we when we talk about a fixed mindset, you're avoiding challenges because you don't think you could do it. You don't even wanna be bothered with the rejection or the failure of it all. So you just avoid it. You refuse to receive feedback. Now feedback is going to be a part of your professional and personal life. You're gonna be getting feedback just about everything that you do. And if you are so afraid to receive feedback, feedback is a very important skill as a student because you're always gonna be getting feedback in something. And if you are thinking that the feedback that you get is defining who you are, then you're not gonna be able to learn anything out of the experience that's supposed to teach and build you.

Juanita Tookes [00:32:50]: Focus on proving yourself, we kinda talked about that earlier. Feeling threatened by other successes, which goes into comparison. Can't accept failures or mistakes because you don't have grace or compassion for yourself like we what we talked about. Shying away from unfamiliar things and belief that that talent is static, right? These are all things that go with a fixed mindset. But when you have a growth mindset, it's the exact opposite. You're looking at things differently. You're looking at how things can build you and expand and enhance your life experience. So you're viewing challenges and opportunities as something exciting.

Juanita Tookes [00:33:23]: You're embracing feedback. You're focusing on the process, not the results. You're inspired by others. Instead of being intimidated by them, You're learning how to grow from your failures because you know it's one of your greatest teachers. You're stepping out of your comfort zone, and you're believing that talent is ever improving. So by incorporating these practices into your daily life, you can foster a growth mindset and enhance your ability to learn and adapt. I mentioned reflection earlier. Reflection is also a very important skill that can help counter the impact and effects of imposter syndrome.

Juanita Tookes [00:33:56]: So when you have some minutes, maybe at the end of your day, or if you're getting your day started a little early, you wanna practice some reflection so that you can check-in with yourself and you are aware of how you're feeling and what you're thinking in certain moments. So try answering questions to see what you can learn about yourself and your mindset so that you can improve the way that you think. So what are my accomplishments? What accomplishments am I not owning and why? Because you have a lot of people who are doing some great stuff, but they don't wanna recognize it for whatever reason. Which beliefs about success are holding me back? What abilities and or strengths am I overlooking? Are these thoughts based on facts or fears? What would I say to a friend in this situation? How would I say this to myself? When have I proved my inner critic wrong in the past? And when we talk about inner critic, we're talking about that voice that you hear in your mind that is shaking their finger at you, telling you, you should have did this better. Why did you do this? This was silly. I don't know why you did that. That's the inner critic. And an an inner critic, I mean, it could it could serve to have some helpful information, but a lot of times, the inner critic, when we're talking about imposter syndrome, has gone way past, way past us giving us some helpful feedback or increasing our awareness about something.

Juanita Tookes [00:35:07]: This is making us feel bad about something that we did, making us think that it should have been perfect or we should have been an expert. Remember those 5 types of impostors? Making us feel like we should have been a persona of one of those types of impostors. Instead of just saying, hey. I did my best, and I'm gonna do better next time. So when have I proved my inner critic wrong? When have you went against that voice and said, look, I know you're telling me that I should have did this, but I did the best I could, and I'm proud of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:34]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a daunting yet rewarding journey that requires strategic planning, relentless perseverance, and a bit of serendipity. This episode of the Victor's in Grad School podcast brought forth an enlightening conversation with Dr. Dick Sadler, a professor at Michigan State University, who shared his compelling academic journey, strategies for overcoming imposter syndrome, and advice for prospective graduate students. Here are the key takeaways from the conversation that can serve as a guiding light on your graduate school path.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education Dr. Dick Sadler’s journey to academia began somewhat serendipitously during his undergraduate studies at the University of Michigan - Flint. He was encouraged by his mentor, Dr. Ed Chow, to consider graduate school. Dr. Sadler’s initial motivation was partly driven by logistical factors, such as securing health insurance and guaranteed funding, which were available through a program at the University of Western Ontario. This decision highlights the importance of considering all aspects — financial, personal, and academic — when deciding to pursue graduate education.

From Environmental Science to Urban Geography Dr. Sadler’s transition from studying environmental science to urban geography represents a fascinating pivot driven by his long-standing curiosity about urban landscapes. He reminisced about his childhood questions regarding the urban structure of his neighborhood, which laid the groundwork for his interest in urban geography. The skills he acquired through GIS and computer mapping during his undergrad allowed him to delve into urban processes, demonstrating the value of transferable skills and interdisciplinary approaches in academia.

Overcoming Imposter Syndrome Imposter syndrome is a common challenge faced by many graduate students, including Dr. Sadler. He shared that while imposter syndrome was prevalent at various stages of his academic career, it didn’t hinder his progress. His strategy was to remain focused, validate his progress through positive feedback and achievements, and immerse himself in the academic environment. Time and consistent effort became his allies in overcoming these doubts.

The Value of Graduate Degrees in Professional Development Dr. Sadler discussed the significant role that his PhD played in shaping his career. He emphasized that his PhD provided him with the rigor needed for academic research, while his subsequent Master’s in Public Health from Johns Hopkins helped him understand the intricacies of public health. The combination of these degrees equipped him with a diverse set of skills, making him highly adaptable and capable in various research settings. His journey underscores the importance of continuous learning and skill acquisition.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students Dr. Sadler’s foremost advice for prospective graduate students is to secure a program that offers ample funding. Financial stability allows students to focus fully on their studies and research. He also stressed the importance of choosing a field of study that genuinely interests you. Graduate school requires a high level of engagement and creativity, which is easier to maintain when driven by passion. Finally, understanding that graduate school shifts from knowledge consumption to knowledge production can help students align their expectations and efforts accordingly.

Conclusion Dr. Dick Sadler’s insights provide valuable guidance for those considering or already navigating the path of graduate education. Whether it’s overcoming imposter syndrome, leveraging your skills in new fields, or ensuring financial stability, his experiences offer a blueprint for success. As you embark on your graduate school journey, remember that perseverance, adaptability, and a genuine passion for your field are your greatest tools.

For more details and to listen to the full conversation, tune into the latest episode of the Victor's in Grad School podcast.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we're talking about this journey that you've decided to go on. Now you might be at the very beginning where you haven't even applied anywhere yet, but you're just starting to think about it for yourself. You might have already applied. Maybe you got accepted already. Or maybe you're already in graduate school, and you're just trying to figure things out along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:42]: Or maybe you're even seeing that light at the end of the tunnel and trying to figure out what's next. No matter where you are, this podcast is here to help you to find success in that journey that you're on. That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different guests that have had different experiences that can share those experiences with you and help you to learn from the things that went well, the things that maybe didn't go well, and also allow for you to be able to grab some tools for your own toolbox to help you along the way. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Dick Sandler is with us, and Dick is a professor at Michigan State University. And he's been there for quite a few years, but I'm really excited to be able to kind of turn the clock back in time, learn a little bit more about his own experience that led him to being a professor at Michigan State, and to introduce him to you. Dick, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:01:40]: Yeah. For sure. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:42]: Well, my pleasure. I love being able to chat with you today and be able to learn a little bit more. And as I said, I wanna start by turning the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, where you received a degree in environmental science and planning in GIS. And at some point during that period of time, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were gonna continue your education and go on, and you made a choice to go on to get a PhD in urban geography. Talk to me about this journey for yourself and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:02:24]: Yeah. I had kind of thought about it, but not super seriously. And honestly, it wasn't until, like, end of my junior year, start of my senior year, I was doing some independent study with who had become my de facto mentor in the ge functionally the geography department. His name was Ed Chow. He's now at Texas State, but he had been a professor there just for a couple of years. And I took all of my GIS or computer mapping classes from him. So I'd basically, my whole minor, I had taken classes with with doctor Chow. And I guess just, like, seeing the caliber of my work and the fact that we were working together, he suggested that I present some of my work at a regional research conference, like, for our professional society.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:03:04]: I think that one was just down in East Lansing, actually. So it's funny. My first professional talk was at Michigan State. And then after that, he was just saying, you know, you should just throw in a couple applications to grad school. It's not gonna hurt, look around a little bit. And one thing I kind of wanted to do for a few years before was live in Canada. So I had this vague idea, oh, maybe I'll live in Canada someday. And then an also vague idea, maybe I'll go to grad school.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:03:30]: Over Thanksgiving, actually, because my family wasn't doing much that year, I drove out to a few campuses in Southwestern Ontario, basically headed toward Toronto, and had a really good chat with one supervisor that the person who had eventually become my grad supervisor. And so I looked him up before and gotten a bit of an idea of the work he did, went there, met with him and his students, had lunch, and just got a really good sense from that campus that it was a good fit. So it's kind of dumb luck because I the other visits, actually, the rest of that trip was kind of a train wreck. Had car problems and then it snowed and then just I was uninspired to keep going. But yeah. So I applied to grad school because my undergrad supervisor had suggested it. Just happened to get in and get a scholarship because the program at the University of Western Ontario where I went to grad school was guaranteed funding for any of the grad students that were accepted. And so for me, that was the main reason for doing that.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:04:26]: This was 2007 or 2008. And so this was before the ACA. And so, as a 22-year-old, like, becoming 22 that year, I was going to be off of my parents' health insurance and kind of off on my own. And I had some anxieties about that and moving into that next phase of adulthood. And going to Canada meant guaranteed health insurance and dental insurance because the grad students were in union. And I had a guaranteed teaching assistantship and a scholarship for my tuition. So it was honestly stepping into a job, if not a full time job. And, you know, if a more academic one, it was still something I always took really seriously and was able to take seriously because I was able to get an offer that was really it allowed me to not have to worry about those other kinds of financial questions, especially as a a young person, like, right out of undergrad, no kids, no pets, very mobile, that kind of thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:19]: So talk to me a little bit about you went into a PhD program in urban geography, and your undergraduate work was in geography as well. But talk to me about couple things. One, why a PhD? You could have probably done a master's as well and and done that before a PhD if you had wanted to. And then 2, why urban geography?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:05:40]: Yeah. So and it's funny because the initial offering I had was to do a master's degree, and the program I started in was just starting to fuss with this idea of fast tracking master's students right into their PhD. And in some disciplines, you do do that or you have the option to. So after my 1st year of my masters, instead of progressing to writing a thesis, I wrote a small proposal and proposed being let into the PhD program, which guaranteed 4 more years of funding instead of just the one more year. So it was kind of a way to, like, kick the can down the road. Instead of 2 years of funding, I had 5 years total. And then instead of having to write a master's thesis in my 2nd year, I didn't have to write my dissertation until later in the PhD. So I was pushing some of that down the line.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:06:25]: But again, I wound up in the same position where my grad supervisor and I was co supervised actually. So my grad supervisors agreed that doing well and I had a good topic and seemed like I had an aptitude to progressing into that. And it was something that by that point, I had started taking more seriously the idea of staying in academia and doing research. And it was of interest. I was never a student who super liked writing papers, for example. I liked the math and science parts of my work more. But as I got into a topic that was really of interest to me, I. E.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:06:58]: Urban geography, I found I didn't mind reading and writing so much. You know, and again, my supervisors were saying, like, yeah, you're a good writer. And I had started I think by then I'd published a paper from my undergrad. So I kind of entered that world of academic publishing. And the urban geography part was, I think, honestly coming home a bit more. So my undergrad was like environmental science. And so it's like resource conservation and forest management and like natural geography stuff. But as a little kid, I was always curious about, you know, so I went to Atherton High School, which is in Burton, just outside of Flint here.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:07:32]: And my mom had gone to Flint Northern. My dad had gone to Atherton. And as a little kid, I was wondering, asking questions like, why are there no sidewalks? Why isn't there a 711 in our neighborhood? Why don't we have a video store? Like, just these little kind of urban ideas that you'd see on a cartoon or a TV show that were not the way that Burton functioned, you know, being a suburb of a city like Flint. And then also learning about how Flint used to look in the sixties when my mom was growing up and wanting to experience more of that and and really liking the what the functional city looks like and functions like and being able to walk and bike and all of these interrelated processes. And so when I got to grad school and and specifically I found supervisors who did that kind of research that allowed me to take the skills I had learned in particular with the GIS, the mapping stuff, and shift the topic from that natural side back over to the urban side. So the research I do is really broad and and especially having come back to Flint for my faculty position nearly 10 years ago, I've been able to dig into all kinds of different processes in Flint's urban system from vacant land greening to the water system to flight and demolitions and crime and really anything you could imagine that varies over space or that's a part of an urban system in Flint I've I've studied.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: So after you got that PhD, PhD, you finished up your PhD, you, about 5 years later, made a decision to go back to school. And this time, you got a master's degree in public health from Johns Hopkins. So every person has a different path and different choices. So talk to me about that choice and why you decided that you wanted to go back to school after getting that terminal degree to be able to study something very different in regard to that next phase of your education?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:09:27]: That was a funny one. So I got my PhD in 2013. I got my faculty job in 2015 after a short postdoc. And after about a year here, we hired another faculty member named Deborah Furr Holden. She had come from Johns Hopkins. And after her being here for a couple of years, she told me that they were starting a program. She had colleagues back there and they were starting a program through the Bloomberg School of Public Health that would guarantee funding for master's students in particular from community based settings. So more of the applicants were from places like health departments or or, substance use program, treatment programs, things like that.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:10:09]: But she said, Oh, just throw your hat in. It's a new program. And if you get in, then you got to go into your Miles per hour. And I did. So then it's like, okay, I guess I'm doing another degree. And, and yeah, I didn't have a master's degree. And I had been working in a division of public health for 3 years at that point. And at times felt a little bit, it'd be like moving to France or something.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:10:32]: And like, you're kind of learning French, but people can still tell that you're American. And I thought, okay, this is like an immersion program that'll help me really understand the culture and the language of public health. And, yeah, so the program was partly in person. I got to go to Baltimore for a couple of weeks at a time and take intensive courses. And then a lot of it was online and I actually finished it the 1st couple of months of COVID were like my last term. And so the program was already online anyways and and wrap that up and kinda just like checking another box. But again, it was feeling more comfortable in the public health world and also making connections. I have some colleagues at Johns Hopkins now.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:11:09]: One of whom in particular, we do a lot of work together. So it was a nice way to kind of expand my research reach and feel like I have a little bit more skills in my tool belt.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:18]: So you've had these different experiences. And in each of those experiences, going to get your PhD, your master's degree, there are different transitions that you have to go through. So you went through you went through a transition between going from undergrad into your PhD and then from your PhD to the workforce, from workforce back into an a master's program. As you think about the transitions that you have had in your own educational experiences, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success in each of those? And what did you do to maintain that success throughout the entire graduate school journey?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:11:56]: So I think the transition from undergrad to PhD was the like, I don't wanna discount the anxieties of my former self. Like, I wanna say that that might have been the easiest. But honestly, I mean, on the flip side, I think adding the master's program to my existing work plate in retrospect, maybe that's the easiest because I was already an academic. I already had a PhD. I was going back for a master's in a related discipline to, you know, the kind of work I was doing. But yeah. So starting my PhD, I I never stopped going to school. Right? So it's like high school, undergrad, master's program slash into my PhD.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:12:34]: And so I still had the same study habits. And in some ways, I was well, in most ways, I was way more scared. I was, like, terrified that I was gonna bomb out of grad school. It was a path that my immediate family hadn't taken. And so there wasn't this example or people that I was close to that I could follow in the footsteps of. And so I spent a lot of I took a lot of effort and care to be a really good student through my PhD program because I wanted to set myself up for success. So in some ways, and I don't begrudge it at all, but I wasn't quite as loose and and free in my earlier twenties. And in on the flip side, it was like just the last few years of my life, I've been I feel like I've been able to loosen up and relax and enjoy vacation and stuff like that.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:13:20]: But also because I punched through and I took extra special care, I was able to get to where I am now. And so I feel like the transition from my PhD into the workforce wasn't too bad. I mean, again, it was another one of those big hurdles where I was like, okay, for sure, they're gonna figure me out now. I had imposter syndrome at each stage of my, honestly, like start of high school, start of college, start of grad school, start of faculty career. I've always had that kind of perspective where I'm not doing good enough. And it's funny because I've always ultimately excelled in each of those phases of my life. But I think it's good to go into something a little bit scared because then you make sure that you're giving it sufficient effort. And and I should add, it's not like I wasn't having fun in my early twenties.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:14:04]: I I've played in bands my most of my adult life and certainly have had friends and so forth. It's just I was balancing that much more precariously with this anxiety. It's like at a show or on vacation and I'm just thinking about my grad school work. And it's just dragging me down. Whereas now I can compartmentalize it a little bit better. I'm used to it. I write papers and I read papers and I teach guest classes and stuff like that. And, and it's much more routine, and I'm not so hyper fixated on this prospect that I'm going to fail all the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:37]: When you think about imposter syndrome, and many graduate students face that at the beginning or throughout their experiences, What did you have to do to push through that? And were there any strategies that you put into place that have helped you in with that as you've gone through not only your graduate degrees but into your career?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:14:59]: I think in each case, it was time that helped the most. It was being able to look back and see either my report cards or my publishing history or whatever again at each stage of my career and see evidence that I'm doing okay and not just doing okay but doing well. And also not just doing well in my first evaluation, but all of the subsequent ones because you can be a freshman and have a good year and then you kinda just slough off and you don't keep trying. And so and that's why for me, I usually would take a couple of years. It was like junior year of high school, junior year of undergrad, 3rd year of grad school. And I don't know why it's like that for me. It's just, again, this, like, big fear that I'm not going to achieve enough. So in terms of the strategies that may have helped though, I really don't know that I have had active strategies.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:15:51]: I think it's literally just being able to have evidence of people saying, no. You're doing a good job. And me being able to look back and see that I haven't flunked out yet.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:02]: You've completed your degrees. You have a number of degrees under your belt. As you look back at the different degrees that you have received, your undergrad, your PhD, your masters, and you think about what you're doing today. How do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:16:22]: Yeah. My PhD in particular, this set me up really well. I mean, well, yeah. I mean, I think each of them had some roles, of course. I mean, but, I'll just start with my undergrad degree too, because being able to get research experience and I did wanna make sure to share this being at U of M Flint and being at a smaller campus and having the opportunity to do research with one of my professors is something I don't think I would have necessarily had the chance to do at a huge university, like at U of M Ann Arbor or at MSU's campus. And that really allowed me to get my feet wet and understand like, okay, this is what research looks like functionally, you know, more than just writing a class paper and and seeing something through not just through the end of the semester, but until it got published. And and so once I got to grad school and was in my PhD program, the expectations there of publishing a couple of papers before defense and not everybody did that, but the the the hope at least that you were already actively publishing before you defend it. And the just the culture in my department, it was it was a very collegial, very fun department.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:17:33]: We had a softball team and a soccer team and we went to the bars and so forth. But it was serious and people came into the office and it felt like a job. And I had a lot of people that I could look up to in different fields even. But, you know, people who are Canada research chairs in their own sub disciplines, who were my professors and had worked with big names in the field at University of Toronto and McGill and at other American universities. And so really seeing that and what it actually took to be productive at that level. I think once I got back here to Flint and started working for MSU, I at least knew what the game was. It was still harder for me at the time. I was doing it more slowly and I had to be more intentional about like, okay, if I wanna write a paper, I've gotta get the data and then I've gotta spend a lot of time on the literature review.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:18:25]: And and I had to kinda take it step by step. And now stuff just flies at me so fast that it's like, I've got like 25 papers with 17 different research teams and and I don't have the amount of time to dedicate to any one step. But the fact that I have I had really good practice at that in grad school, in particular, my PhD, and then have been able to rehearse that over and over and over as I published with all these different teams and in different roles, too, I think has has made me much more comfortable with the kind of work that I do.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:58]: Now, as you look back at your own graduate education and maybe even you're thinking about some of the graduate students that you work with now, as you think about other students that are coming in the future, people that are thinking about graduate school and thinking about attending a graduate school, a graduate program sometime in the future. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:19:24]: One of the things that for me lessened my mental load and my life load was finding a program that had funding. And so I know it's gonna vary a lot for different people. Some people may have more of a, like, a work expectation. They already have a job. And it's like, hey, if you get your master's degree, you can increase your salary. And and so that's a very different kind of grad school route than the one I took because I was treating grad school like my first job out of college. And so I feel like I can speak to that a little bit more because those kind of paths to me feel different. And so I guess in particular for people that were going into a research path or maybe an academic path, whether you're working for a university or or you wanna work for something like a research center or a consulting firm that does evaluation or whatever.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:20:12]: I think that had I not had my full attention on grad school, it would have been really hard to dig into the processes of research design, and academic writing as much as I did, because I really needed exclusive focus on it. It was not just a side piece for me. I had teaching assistantships and then I was teaching courses later in grad school, but it was very much secondary to the process of becoming a researcher. And so, yeah, so that would would definitely contrast a lot with if you somebody who's doing an MBA or an Miles per hour or some kind of professional degree where the goal is maybe still like a little bit more coursework and skill building. And certainly like with my Miles per hour, it was a lot of coursework and expanding the fields that I was familiar with. Again, I think that it's the general lesson if I want if I was gonna try to generalize would be that well, and this is something that a lot of my professors would say over and over all throughout grad school is that undergrad is about consuming knowledge and your grad program is about producing knowledge. So whatever field it is you're in, it's about trying to become more active in that process. And you're not just sitting in the classroom and being fed information, but you're thinking more critically.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:21:29]: Maybe you're using new theoretical constructs or you're thinking methodologically about how do we do something better with the tools that we have. And so it requires a little bit of creativity, which again requires time to like sit and chew on these ideas. And it's not just like I'm gonna do this exercise real quick and submit it and then I'm done. You really want to enjoy what you're studying because if you don't, then you're just gonna be bored out of your mind spending the amount of time it takes to really become more of an expert in that field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:04]: Well, Dick, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on research, on the pathways that may exist in in so much more. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Dick Sadler [00:22:16]: Thank you very much, and good luck to everybody out there listening.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:19]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Navigating the demanding world of graduate school can be a monumental task, especially when balancing multiple roles. In the latest episode of the University of Michigan Flint's Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis speaks with Reilly Chabie from Counseling and Psychological Services (CAPS) at the University of Michigan - Flint about finding balance and setting boundaries.

Utilizing Transition Times Effectively A key insight from Reilly is the importance of utilizing transition times to reset. She suggests using short breaks between classes for rest or leisure activities instead of academic tasks. This practice can help students manage stress and stay emotionally balanced. Reilly emphasizes that these breaks can be instrumental in maintaining a sense of calm and preparing oneself mentally for the next task.

Flexibility with Priorities Reilly discusses the importance of being adaptable when it comes to priorities. She highlights the necessity of shifting priorities daily based on circumstances. Graduate students often face changing demands, and flexibility is crucial for managing these effectively.

Seeking Support and Accountability The episode also explores the significance of seeking support from peers, mentors, or counselors. Reilly advises working with others to relieve stress and gain accountability. This approach not only helps in managing roles but also creates a collaborative environment, making the journey through graduate school less isolating.

Mastering Time Management and Organization Reilly recommends experimenting with various planning tools like planners, lists, and apps to find what best suits an individual’s organizational needs. Time management is essential for balancing multiple roles, and the right tools can provide structure and clarity.

The Importance of Setting Boundaries Setting boundaries is a recurring theme in the discussion. Reilly outlines seven types of boundaries: physical, emotional, time, and internal boundaries being a few. Understanding and setting these boundaries based on personal limits and priorities can prevent overwhelming situations and enhance personal balance.

Three-Step Boundary Setting Process 1. Define the Boundary:

Identify what you are trying to reduce, add, or accomplish. 2. Communicate the Boundary:

Clearly convey the boundary to relevant parties. 3. Set Consequences:

Determine your response if the boundary is not respected.

Recognizing and Addressing Burnout Burnout is a common issue among graduate students. Reilly outlines signs of burnout, including physical symptoms like high blood pressure and headaches and mental indicators like difficulty concentrating and low mood. Addressing burnout early is critical to maintaining balance and well-being.

Embracing Emotional Wellness Reilly emphasizes that emotional reactions should be acknowledged as part of building balance. Allowing oneself to feel emotions promotes self-compassion, which is crucial for graduate students facing high demands. Grounding techniques, such as the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method, can help reconnect with the present moment and reduce overwhelm.

Organizational Tips for Balance Practical organizational strategies are vital for balancing roles and responsibilities. Reilly advises creating schedules that include self-care and relaxation time, blocking out periods for social connections, and engaging in new activities. These strategies can aid in achieving a harmonious balance.

A Comprehensive Approach to Balance Reilly Chabie's insights offer a comprehensive approach to achieving balance in graduate school. From utilizing transition times and seeking support to mastering time management and setting boundaries, her advice provides invaluable tools for students. Practicing self-compassion and recognizing personal limits are key to thriving in this demanding environment.

For more resources, students are encouraged to explore campus services like CAPS, Recreational Services, and the Student Success Center.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for being here. My name is Dr. Christopher Lewis. I'm the director of graduate programs. I really appreciate you being here today and for taking this next step in your own journey here at in graduate school to prepare yourself for what comes ahead and what you're dealing with right now. And and today, we've got a great guest. Reilly Chabie is with us today, and Riley is, in our CAPS office. And I I know she'll be introducing herself and what CAPS does, but, but today, I asked her to come in and to talk about finding support in setting boundaries, finding that balance for yourself.

Reilly Chabie [00:00:51]: It's one of the topics that I always hear graduate students challenged by, whether they just started or whether they're in the middle of their program. So it's important to be able to go through and understand and have some resources at your fingertips to help you in this process, and Riley's here to do just that. I'm gonna turn it over to Riley for her to be able to talk to you and share all of her wisdom, and really excited to have you all here today.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:16]: Thank you so much, doctor Lewis. I really appreciate it. Welcome, everybody. I'm grateful that you're interested in learning about this topic a little bit more, and hopefully some of the information we talk about today will support you in your journey as a grad student. But honestly, a lot of these skills are going to be helpful for all of life. There's not necessarily a specific timeframe or experience where this applies the most, but it's helpful to get these skills now so that they translate and continue to move with you moving forward. So like I said, hopefully you learn a little bit today.

Reilly Chabie [00:01:51]: As Dr. Lewis mentioned, we're going to be talking a little bit about finding balance between the things that you're kind of expected to be doing as a graduate student, but also just knowing that you have personal endeavors and things going on in your life that also require quite a bit of your attention. So we'll kind of start off with just some what to expect experiences here, and then we'll kind of navigate into the specifics. But first and foremost, we're going to talk about what are called the 8 dimensions of wellness. And I think this is pretty crucial in any sort of balance forming as these areas are what we ultimately are making choices on every single day. We're determining whether or not we're prioritizing these certain dimensions in the hopes that we're creating a good enough balance where we feel kind of equal and stable and ready to take on the day. So we'll be talking about how those fit into this process today. We'll talk more specifically about what balance is and even more importantly, how we might be able to identify feelings of being unbalanced or the lack of balance. We'll also kind of think about some tips and tricks on how to navigate that, as well as maintaining balance once we've found what feels comfortable.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:02]: We'll talk a little bit more in-depth about boundaries. What do those look like? How do you set them? Maybe some examples of what those can look like. Then, of course, we'll round out with just some last thoughts, as well as some resources on campus that you'll be able to utilize. All right. So the 8 dimensions of wellness. I'm not sure who has heard about the dimensions of wellness, but something that student health and wellness here on campus really tries to focus on are these 8 dimensions. There's a variety and I'm sure you've heard of some of them, like maybe emotional wellness or social wellness, maybe physical wellness. All of these dimensions ultimately help us feel connected to the whole person.

Reilly Chabie [00:03:45]: So each of these slices of this wheel relate to us as a whole person. And, arguably, when one of them isn't working out very well, when we're maybe struggling in that area or we're not giving enough focus to that area, we tend to feel like that area is faltering and thus, a lot of our stress and difficulties start to increase. So I think it's really crucial that if we're thinking about balance, it makes sense to kinda give some tangible names to how like, what what balance even looks like and what areas we're trying to focus on. These 8 dimensions also kind of help us feel fulfilled and, like, we're achieving the potential that we want to be able to set for ourselves. So even just adding this into our regular vocabulary can be very supportive in not only identifying what balance looks like, but also just kind of feeling connected to oneself. And I also think it's kind of helpful to to think about this in the context of if we know these 8 dimensions, we are then able to identify what areas need work or attention. So for example, if I'm not doing so well in terms of my social experiences, That's probably a good indicator that maybe working on building ways to support my social wellness would be crucial in creating some balance. Maybe feeling more engaged on campus or connecting better or more deeply with my friends and family, etcetera.

Reilly Chabie [00:05:15]: So I might notice that one of these areas or multiple at one time are impacted. Therefore, I have at least some area to start, which honestly can be the most difficult part about finding balances, identifying even where to start. We'll talk a little bit more about how you can identify problem areas. But part of what we will navigate is how our values impact our dimensions of wellness. Once we've identified that connective tissue there, that helps us find gaps in relation to those values and how we can adjust accordingly in order to support our areas of wellness. I like to use this as our background or you could say the theme of what to consider as we go through the rest of the presentation. That wellness and especially these dimensions are going to be a core piece of identifying support, finding that balance, and ultimately feeling a little more whole as a person. Alright.

Reilly Chabie [00:06:22]: Balance. Honestly, balance can seem a little bit like a buzzword in some respects. Right? That, you know, we've we hear in a lot of variety and in a lot of different contexts that were meant to hold some sort of balance between maybe social and personal life as well as work life as well as school life. And that can get really complicated really fast. So some things that maybe can be helpful in considering what balance is and how we identify how it plays out is by looking at the types of responsibilities and roles we hold in everyday life. When I'm talking about roles, I'm specifically talking about the things that we're typically doing. For example, some of the roles you might hold include being a student, being a friend, being a significant other. You could consider being an employee or maybe even more specifically identifying what your job title is.

Reilly Chabie [00:07:24]: That is still considered a role. So we hold a wide variety of roles at any given point. And, therefore, we're gonna notice some balance challenges popping up because of all of those responsibilities that we're trying to juggle at any given point. And because we have all of those roles and responsibilities, there's this expectation we place on ourselves to try to figure everything out all the time. And when we're struggling to build that balance or kind of create that feeling of, Oh, I'm actually paying attention to all of these areas in my life, it really starts to add on this feeling of stress and anxiety. And honestly, sometimes just this feeling of, I'm not even sure what I'm trying to do here when we're not able to balance all of these different roles and responsibilities. So, something we kind of want to consider is 1, what are those roles? You know, being able to to put labels to those roles, but even more so, can we identify the amount of energy and focus that we need or want to devote to those roles? Right? So, for example, it will be likely that as a graduate student, you're going to put a lot of energy and focus into your role as a student. So that includes making sure you're writing your papers, getting your assignments done, maybe engaging in things on campus related related to your degree or just to build social connection.

Reilly Chabie [00:08:53]: But there's a lot that plays into that. So if we're identifying that as a higher priority or kind of a higher value for us, we're probably going to devote a lot of time and energy to it. But depending on if we're creating balance, if we're adding too much energy and too much, you know, time to one area, it can kind of get a little exhausting and the scales might tip a little bit. And we feel like we're doing too much of one thing at one time. So it's important to kind of think about, all right, you know, how much energy do I want to devote to this area? How am I going to prioritize this in my day to day life? And if we're noticing there's some discrepancies in terms of, oh, I'm, you know, I'm putting a lot of energy and effort in, you know, this one area or this one role, but it's really not that important to me or it's taking a lot away from other priorities that I have. That's a great indicator that our balance is not as even as we would like it to be. Thus, giving us an end to identify a space to work on. We might also know outside of these roles that our balance is a little off kilter if there are too many demands.

Reilly Chabie [00:10:07]: Right. So if we're thinking about as a graduate student, there's a lot of assignments and a lot of things going on. It might be a bit stressful and feel like there's too much going on in order to devote the time we need to in all areas. So we might need to kind of navigate what comes first and how much energy we wanna put into that. So if there are too many demands that can impact our balance, our expectations in terms of perfection or what we're striving toward, that can definitely impact balance because one, nothing is perfect. We can't accomplish perfect because it doesn't exist. Therefore, if we're striving towards that, we're we're not going to feel that sense of stability in the same way that if we set a reasonable or manageable goal. So I think that can be a helpful thing to consider.

Reilly Chabie [00:10:57]: In a similar vein, if we set unrealistic expectations for ourselves, that one kind of sets us up for potential misbalance, but also that impacts just our areas of wellness. We don't accomplish what we set out, especially if we're starting with something unrealistic or unachievable in in that moment, giving those circumstances. We're kind of giving ourselves that opportunity to feel disappointed, to feel disconnected, to feel hurt by our process and thus slowly building up some of these negative experiences. So. Keeping in mind these roles, as well as the energy we're adding to that. And some of these additional concerns that struggle with balance. This might be a really great way for us to identify those areas, and then kind of work on the specifics on how to navigate that. So just kind of keeping those things in mind, both the dimensions of wellness and balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:11:52]: We're going to kind of think about how else can I notice when my balance is not as equal as I would like it to be? And a big consideration in terms of balance is burnout. So burnout comes up a lot in college, in grad school, and arguably in any form of system where we're working on a lot of different things or playing a lot of different roles. And burnout is somewhat synonymous with lack of balance. You know, typically, when we think of burnout, we're saying, wow, you know, I am spending so much time in this one area, and I feel really exhausted by it. That's a good indication that we're not only we're experiencing burnout, but that our balance is being affected. So some signs or some indicators as to if we're experiencing burnout can include a variety. But I like to point these two sections out because burnout isn't always physical and it isn't always mental or emotional, and it can be a common a combination of both. So if there were some things you might notice in terms of burnout would be high blood pressure, reoccurring headaches, sleep concerns, stomachaches, or when we have high stress, our immune system is affected.

Reilly Chabie [00:13:14]: Therefore, getting sick more frequently can happen. For the mental and emotional signs, we may notice concentration difficulties, we might notice low mood, maybe a loss of interest in our favorite things, feeling like we're falling behind in certain tasks or expectations, or maybe even feeling stuck. Feeling like we don't necessarily know how to engage or how to move forward. Obviously, this is not an exhaustive list. There are so many other variations to burn out and how we experience that. These are just some of the common ones. And, you know, for example, I know when I'm feeling rundown, I sometimes isolate. Maybe I disconnect from my peers, even though theoretically, I might feel very comforted by them.

Reilly Chabie [00:14:01]: I think mentally, emotionally, and sometimes physically, I don't necessarily have that energy to devote to those social connections. Therefore, my balance is off kilter. So just kinda keeping in mind that while these are very common, they may not pertain to you, but these are some indicators as to when we're experiencing burnout. I also think too that if we're noticing that there's multiple of these experiences happening at once, that's a sign of more intense or more severe burnout. You know, naturally speaking, we might struggle with some of these concerns popping up here and there. But it's when those concerns start to become unmanageable or they're more frequent or more consistent, that's kind of when we need to be alerted to, oh, okay. Something's kind of going on here and maybe this is my time to tackle it. So, you know, we've talked a lot about ways we can identify when our balance is being impacted.

Reilly Chabie [00:14:59]: We've talked about some symptoms specifically that might come up when we're experiencing lack of balance. We've also considered a little bit of roles and how those play into it and the energy we devote to them. So shifting a little bit, how do we take all of that knowledge and how do we change things if we feel like we need to recreate that balance or build better balance? And I think it's helpful to kind of think about a few different things specifically. So, first of all, balance is something that takes time and requires a little bit of a step by step process. Of course, with the understanding of the different roles and expectations that we have, it's not gonna be an easy thing to change overnight to completely adjust how much energy we devote in a certain place or in a certain area. So keeping in mind right from the get go that it's that it's a step by step process and that you will take your time doing it can be helpful in the pressure that we might feel in trying to create that balance. But that balance is also a continuum. I'm even thinking like balance as in 1, I'm feeling totally, completely disconnected.

Reilly Chabie [00:16:16]: You know, I'm, I'm really struggling with that balance to 10 being I'm perfectly balanced to, to the best of my ability, given the roles, given the expectations that I have. And, of course, typically, we don't wanna be on the extreme ends because sometimes those can come with complications of their own. But if we can kind of shift into, you know, a medium level of balance or kind of be able to create that safe space for us, depending on where we're at, that's ideally the part of the continuum we want to be on. So kind of keeping that in mind that my balance is going to look a lot different than your balance and vice versa. And just in addition to that, you know what your balance can look like. And you're also very much going to know when you feel the lack of balance. So comparison between each person's balance is not going to be helpful in this situation, just because we don't know what types of roles other people are trying to handle. And not to mention that each person comes with their own set of rules and values and things that play into what that balance looks like.

Reilly Chabie [00:17:20]: So I think it's helpful to kind of put those things into context. And if we're able to achieve that balance that we're looking for, there's, of course, a lot of important benefits that come from that. We're going to notice our mood changing. Right? If we feel balanced, then we're gonna feel more likely connected to people in our life. The things that we're doing, we may find more enjoyment in certain things going on. So we really wanna rely on knowing that the work we put in to build balance will provide great outcomes and ultimately lead to feeling more productive, feeling more connected to those that we want to be connected to. And we're, we're going to feel just that overall sense of peace that we probably desire in the chaos that is graduate school. So I think that's kind of helpful to put into perspective.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:13]: One that it takes time and that we're kind of putting in the effort now, but those outcomes are going to support us in maintaining that balance as we continue to grow. Some other additional tips or things that we kind of want to consider when we're trying to develop balance. And I think some of these things often get missed in the the process here. So I I feel like it's very helpful to point out. So first and foremost, we want to think about practicing what is called self compassion and acceptance. And I wanna read a quick definition of what self compassion is. This definition was written by Kristin Neff. She plays a very large role in the movement of self compassion, and I think it puts it into good perspective.

Reilly Chabie [00:18:56]: So self compassion is the practice of being kind and understanding towards oneself when experiencing failure, inadequacy, or suffering. And I think that's particularly important in what we're talking about today. Because one, we're grad students. There are so many things going on all the time and so many things we're trying to keep organized and connected with that. We're not always going to line up perfectly. The outcome isn't always going to be the exact way we want it to be. We might experience failure. We might experience suffering in trying to create this balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:19:37]: And that's okay. It's not fun by any means, but it's okay that we can recognize, wow, you know, I'm human. This is a difficult practice, and we're allowed to feel that difficulty while also acknowledging, hey, you know, this is hard and I might not come out on the other end in the way that I expected, but I'm learning from it and I'm growing from it. So if we can practice that ability to accept the challenges that we face and the difficulties that come up and provide a little bit of that grace and compassion, it once again eases that pressure of trying to figure out how to navigate this, but also just gives us that sense of, okay, I'm a work in progress. I'm learning, I'm growing. And if I can say that at the end of the day, then I'm in a good spot regardless of the outcomes of certain things that are coming up. Similarly, when we're challenged with the process of building balance, we will likely have a lot of emotional reaction to that. We may struggle with difficult and uncomfortable emotions.

Reilly Chabie [00:20:43]: We might be angry. We might be sad. We might be upset. We might be a variety of adjectives there. And we want to acknowledge that these emotions are tough, and we need to give ourselves the permission to feel those things when they come up. Because that's part of the emotional wellness. Right? You know, going back to that first slide of the different dimensions of wellness. Emotional wellness plays a key role in this.

Reilly Chabie [00:21:09]: That if we are actively encouraging ourselves to feel what we need to feel and navigate based off of that, we're opening the door to self compassion. We're opening the door to creating better balance. We don't want to hold all of those things and feel like we just got to keep that all in until it starts to impact us more heavily and pulls away that energy and focus from the other areas of wellness or even the roles that we're trying to encourage ourselves to engage in. So I think that's a really important piece here that not only are we, you know, being compassionate towards ourselves, but we're allowing ourselves the space to feel what we need to feel. This process, because we may experience these difficult emotions, because we may be challenged with the ups and downs of building balance, I think it's helpful to also consider some tangible tips and techniques that might be helpful in processingsome of those emotions, but also the challenges that come up. So first and foremost, I want to note that a big part of balance comes the ability to engage in distress tolerance. So distress tolerance is enduring and accepting discomfort in plain terms. And we can acknowledge that life is difficult and it will definitely bring on discomfort, but we, as an individual, have the ability to navigate that discomfort. And part of that is by utilizing distress tolerance and a couple of skills that I like to mention that help with distress tolerance or kind of navigating that discomfort include one, which is a grounding technique. And the other one is specifically related to distress tolerance and it's called radical acceptance. So we'll start with the grounding techniques first. 1st and foremost grounding techniques are an excellent way to build up a sense of self and kind of reconnect ourselves to the present moment.

Reilly Chabie [00:23:05]: A lot of the time when we're feeling unbalanced, we may feel overwhelmed, we may feel disconnected from our own problem solving skills, and we wanna gain a little bit of clarity in trying to problem solve and trying to engage back into balance. So part of that requires a bit of grounding. And one of my favorite methods is the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 method. It's in relation to our 5 senses, where we take, for example, 5 things we can see, 4 things we can touch, 3 things we can smell, 2 things we can hear, and one thing we can taste. So you can organize that however you would like to, but the goal of this method is to be able to bring ourselves back into the awareness of our present moment without feeling like we're overwhelmed by our thoughts. For example, if I'm, you know, looking at my computer screen right now, something I might do would say do in this process would be, I noticed in front of me my notes that I'm reading off of right now. And the text is white and bold. So in that process, I'm identifying some details and specifics about what I see, And that's bringing my awareness back to the present moment, which then allows for that space of clarity and that ability to problem solve, to kind of clearly think about what I'm doing and move forward in terms of that distressing experience.

Reilly Chabie [00:24:35]: So that's a tangible technique that I like to use. Definitely one of my favorites and there's a variety of grounding techniques, but I like to recommend that one. The other one that I want to mention is radical acceptance. So a little bit earlier, I was talking about self compassion and acceptance about how we need to acknowledge that there are difficulties in life and there are things that we're going to continue to struggle with. And radical acceptance is similar to that. And I'll read once again, a definition that can be helpful in explaining what radical acceptances. So radical acceptance involves fully acknowledging and embracing the present moment, including its difficulties and discomforts without trying to change or control it. So while we are trying to navigate that ability of building balance, we have to recognize that there absolutely will be things in play that we cannot control.

Reilly Chabie [00:25:29]: Certain things like, for example, we can't necessarily control a snow day. We can't necessarily control when a particular assignment is due. You know, there are certain things that are outside of that framework of what we're trying to challenge, and we have to build some acceptance around that so that we reduce the pressure and anxiety that comes from trying to figure out how to navigate that. But if we can focus on the things within our control, we're creating more balance and support of our own individual experience, as opposed to trying to put energy and effort into places that truly will not provide the outcome that we need. So I like to mention radical acceptance as part of this process because there will be challenges that we can't successfully navigate because we do not have that control. But what we can shift our focus to are the things that are within our control, including these types of tips and techniques, as well as the considerations we've already gone over. So it's helpful to kind of make that distinction and utilize that as a way to navigate. So few tips, a few ideas, of course, once again, not exhaustive, but these are definitely some main ones that can be helpful in your journey as we try to develop balance.

Reilly Chabie [00:26:47]: I also like to take into consideration that balance can come from maybe a more organizational or time management perspective that maybe, you know, we're all good with self compassion. We're good with acceptance. We're good with that distress tolerance piece, but we're, like, you know, I could really use some tips on on how to better manage the assignments that I have or the other responsibilities I'm holding in these different roles that I experienced. You know, how do I balance doing work tasks versus school tasks? Or how do I balance celebrating certain things with my friends versus spending a weekend working on homework? So here are some, I guess I like to consider them some tips or some techniques to kind of support that organizational piece of things in order to create balance. So first and foremost, I think it's helpful to consider creating a schedule that includes self care, you know, breaks and other relaxation techniques. So self care is really important when we're feeling overwhelmed, cause we're feeling disconnected from the things that make us feel happy or things that make us feel at peace or, or bring that comfort. So when we have a bunch of scheduled classes and homework assignments and work schedules, it also makes sense to schedule in those times for self care, especially if we like to follow schedules and routines. So I think it can be helpful to put that into perspective that any time we have a break, any time we have a moment, we can add in spaces of self care.

Reilly Chabie [00:28:17]: We can add in those relaxation techniques, use a grounding skill, whatever it might be. It doesn't have to be, you know, I'm taking an entire day just to focus on this area, but we can break it up into those very specific blocks. Additionally, we can block out time for things that we value. So if we know we're really busy, but we're feeling that lack of social connection or that lack of occupational wellness, things like that. We wanna block out times for those things we wanna build up in our values, whether that's family, friends, maybe it's a new activity you wanna try. We want to have that ability to say, I need this. Therefore, I'm creating the space for it. That is well within our control, and we want to be able to kind of take that and engage with that.

Reilly Chabie [00:29:08]: We also might consider using transition times between classes or other activities for a reset on our emotional or mental experience. So, you know, if we have 4 classes in a row and we have 15 minutes in between to navigate, that's not a whole lot of time to do some of these other techniques. But what it is time to do is, you know, a chance for you to build in a space of relaxation or build in okay. You know, I'm gonna use this 15 minutes even though I could study for the quiz that I have this next time around. I really need to eat, or I really need to take a breather and maybe close my eyes. Or maybe I want to read my book so that I can shift between the class I just had in this next class. So I have a bit of that break. Transition times can be an excellent space to put things into, especially if we're feeling overwhelmed with a busy schedule.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:05]: We also want to consider shifting and shuffling our priorities when needed. You know, sometimes priorities change. You know, what you might prioritize today might be different than tomorrow. Even though there's still important values, it's difficult to be very strict on where those priorities lie if other things start popping up. So being able to have a little bit of that adaptability and maybe a little bit of that radical acceptance that priorities might shift can be helpful. We definitely wanna work together with loved ones, peers, colleagues, or find additional support and accountability, which I will talk about later. These people are there for your support and not everything has to be done on your own. It can be kinda scary to ask for help or difficult to ask for help if we don't really know what we're asking for.

Reilly Chabie [00:30:56]: But just being able to talk about this difficulty with balance or the difficulties that we're facing in the roles that we play can be just a helpful reprieve from all of the bottled up experience we might have. And then lastly, some time management skills, identifying what works for you. For example, for me, I really love having a planner. If I can open up a booklet that has a month view in front of me and I can notice where all of my very big events such as my presentation today or, you know, certain things that I have to do around campus, I feel prepared and ready to go for that. Other people might say, nope. That's not it for me. That's okay. Maybe you prefer task lists.

Reilly Chabie [00:31:36]: Maybe you prefer sticky notes. Maybe you prefer your notes app on your phone. Maybe you like, physical calendars, or maybe you like Google Calendar. All of those things can be really helpful in just your organizational and time management, and that can create balance so that we're advocating the time we need and the energy we need for the things that we wanna be able to accomplish. So playing around with some of those things can be helpful too because one thing might work for 1, you know, one area and another thing might work for another area. So just being mindful and cognizant of that can be helpful. So we talked a lot about different tips, maybe more of those inner experiences such as self compassion and acceptance, as well as some of these time management and organizational skills. And I understand that not all of these are going to work perfectly, not all of them are going to apply to your experience, but a combination of a few of these can give us that chance to start creating balance and view these things differently, which then opens us up to feeling more supported to feeling that sense of equilibrium and and kind of feeling a little more, together than maybe if we're not navigating them in this way.

Reilly Chabie [00:32:49]: So I like to mention that as well. Okay. So part of this presentation also focuses on setting boundaries and how these can be incorporated in your process. So going back to one of the previous slides when we're talking about roles and responsibilities, we understand that there are plenty of tasks and expectations and things that we need to consider, but we also need to be able to know, hey. I may not be able to navigate this particular task or responsibility right now because another role or another area of my wellness needs more of my time and focus. So we need to be able to kind of come together internally and ask ourselves, what are the boundaries that I need to set in order to support myself in that process of finding balance and making sure I'm building in some preventative measures so that I don't get to a point of unmanageable discomfort or unmanageable lack of balance. And one of those ways is by setting boundaries. I know perhaps the concept of boundaries seems a little bit like a buzzword that it pops up in a variety of contexts, but these are very helpful in the sense that we're, we're setting boundaries because we want to build our own confidence and our abilities of knowing what our limits are, what we feel comfortable with.

Reilly Chabie [00:34:14]: And we're also able to kind of maintain our own identity in a given situation. We don't feel like we're shifting outside of what our roles and responsibilities are simply because we don't have a boundary in place. So setting boundaries very important. And I like to use this diagram as well that there's 7 types of boundaries. Obviously, these boundaries may come up frequently for you. They may not happen as often, and it also depends on the types of relationships and experiences you have. But I think it's helpful to know that there's a variety of them, and we can set however many or what types we need in any given situation. So some common ones might be some of those physical boundaries that focus on privacy and space, maybe emotional boundaries, like how emotionally available are you to other people.

Reilly Chabie [00:35:06]: We may also consider time boundaries. You know, how long do you want to spend on something? How long are you hoping other people spend with you? Those types of things. There's also what I think can be an interesting one are the internal boundaries. So how are we making sure we're checking in with ourselves? Are we staying regulated? Where is our energy going? And are we setting those internal boundaries for, excuse me, for ourself? So keeping some of these boundaries in mind, I'll talk a little bit more about how to set boundaries, some considerations, and that will bring us into the home stretch. I think personally that there are some very key things in setting boundaries. And part of that, as I alluded to, is about knowing your own limits. You know you best. And because of that, it's it's going to be important to determine what types of things you're willing or not willing to do in a given circumstance based off of where that threshold is.

Reilly Chabie [00:36:15]: And sometimes it can be a little complicated to figure out what those limits are and something that I like to consider or what I do when I'm trying to set a boundary and I'm trying to figure out what those limits look like are just based off of simple check ins. So I might ask questions individually to myself. Things like, am I getting enough rest? Maybe that's in relation to an internal boundary. Am I doing too much right now? That might be in relation to a an an emotional boundary that might be in relation to a time boundary, etcetera. Or is this nourishing me right now? This situation that I'm in, am I feeling nourished by it? Am I getting something important out of it? If not, that might be a place to set a boundary. So asking those questions kind of help you develop where your limits are at, And ultimately, then you can set boundaries in hopes of not reaching those limits or being able to avoid going over the limits. I also think it's important to consider that a big part of boundaries kind of feels like, oh, my boundary is about saying no. And yes, that is truthful.

Reilly Chabie [00:37:27]: If you know your limits, you might need to say no to things, depending on what your roles and responsibilities are in grad school or in other areas of your life. But a big missed part here is the ability and the feeling of, of being able to say yes. Sometimes it's just as crucial to say yes to help, to support, to looking for that extra added important skill, whatever it might be, just as much as it is saying no. That saying yes can also be a boundary that you may have set internally for yourself in order to support. Hey. I'm not really sure what I need to do here, but I'm definitely going to ask, and that's something I wanna hold myself to. And then lastly, we wanna consider priorities. You know, once again, these priorities are based off of your values.

Reilly Chabie [00:38:19]: So if you really value your connection to other people, you are going to notice that maybe setting boundaries in your social life is gonna be more frequent. If you really value your time, you know time is precious in a lot of ways when we have a lot going on. So maybe you're going to be setting more boundaries in relation to those those areas. So identifying what priorities you have and making sure that you're setting boundaries to supplement or support that experience of that priority, that's really crucial. So those three things are really helpful in determining when and where you want to set a boundary. And then that begs the question of how do I set it? I think this is probably the best way for me to lay it out is in this 3 step process, for lack of better term. In step 1, we're defining what that boundary is, and I will show you here shortly a few of the examples of what these boundaries might look like. But based off of our limits, based off of our priorities, based off of if we need to say yes or no to something, we're defining this is a clear place where I want to place this boundary.

Reilly Chabie [00:39:28]: This is what this boundary is going to look like. Step 2, once we've identified what that boundary is, you know, what we're trying to reduce or add or accomplish, we're gonna wanna communicate it. This, I think, sometimes can be really difficult because we're faced with communicating it to another person, to a department, to for example, we might be doing this in terms of our own teaching. Maybe we're doing it in a presentation or whatever it might be and communicating it can feel complicated because we don't necessarily know what the response of the other party is going to be. But as long as we're communicating it clearly, giving them that defined boundary, that's what we're aiming for. We want to be sure that what we're setting this boundary on is important to us, and that's why we're identifying those limits and priorities. And if we're communicating it clearly, that's what matters. And step 3 of setting boundaries includes the the consequences.

Reilly Chabie [00:40:30]: So setting those consequences. And I'm not talking about ultimatums. Right? I'm not saying, you know, here's my boundary. If you don't abide, here's what's going to happen. But more so, if my boundary is not respected, what am I going to do about that? How am I going to navigate that? And make that clear to the person or the 3rd party or whomever you're communicating this to, that that is what the consequence is going to look like. So once again, we're defining that boundary, identifying what area or what concern we're setting that boundary on. We're communicating it clearly noting the specifics of what you're communicating. And step 3 is that, that consequence.

Reilly Chabie [00:41:09]: What am I going to do if my boundary is not being respected? Am I going to remind them about it? Am I going to explain that I'm not going to stay in a situation like this if this continues to happen. You know, there there are varieties, and I'll show you here in just a second. But those those are kind of the steps that I would take to set boundaries. Here are a few examples. I want to preface before I read some of these that you know how you like to talk and the the word choices that you want to make. And what I have written here may not be the way you wanna communicate something. So feel free to find the wording that you want to use because it's not going to work for everybody the way that I have written here. But these are just some things that maybe we want to consider and kind of keep in the back of our head.

Reilly Chabie [00:42:01]: So a couple of examples include, I am going to be honest and vulnerable with myself. That sounds very similar to an internal boundary. Something, you know, maybe we know we're not engaging in that emotional vulnerability as much as we would like to. So we're going to start by being honest and vulnerable with myself. I am going to keep a gratitude journal. Sometimes we get stuck in the negativity and the difficulties of life and in an effort to create balance and be preventative, we are going to engage in a, in a gratitude journal. Those can be really helpful. Once again, that could be internal, but we can also add that into maybe social aspects or other types of boundaries.

Reilly Chabie [00:42:42]: I am not going to expect that others can read my mind. Other ones include as a friend, you shouldn't gossip about me, or I will not offer more help than I can give, or I am uncomfortable in this situation. So I'm going to leave or I'm going to walk away. Some of these boundaries include, you know, physical safety. Maybe it includes some hey, you know, I'm gonna communicate what I need, and that's a boundary that I'm willing to set for myself. So these are just a few examples, and there's a wide variety of ways we can tackle that. But all of these are based on that ability to see what priorities I have for myself, what my limits look like, and ways that I can be preventative in my balance building. So, ultimately, when we take all of those things into consideration, which is a lot, we want to remind ourselves that this is something that doesn't happen overnight.

Reilly Chabie [00:43:48]: I mentioned earlier that it is a step by step process. There's a lot that goes into it. But as long as we're taking small chunks each and every day to try to navigate our areas of wellness, to try to identify skills that can be helpful for us, to time management a little bit actually, it would be time managed. But to manage our time a little bit better or to support ourselves in that process, that's what we're looking for. So this would be an excellent time to utilize self compassion, to recognize that we might make mistakes, and that's okay. Because the more we practice, the more it's gonna become a habit. And we all know that humans love habits. We engage in what feels comfortable.

Reilly Chabie [00:44:31]: So as soon as we start practicing this, it's gonna become more comfortable, and we're gonna feel more likely to rely on our ability to build balance because we've put in that work and practice. So building that acceptance, that self compassion, and it's not an easy process, but it's definitely doable as long as we keep practicing. And as we kind of wrap up today's conversation and before I hopefully open it up to a few questions, I just wanna mention some resources that we have on campus that I want everybody to have access to. So first and foremost, counseling and psychological services where I'm coming from. We are located in the university center on the 2nd floor room 264. You can come, you know, chat with us, engage with us, etcetera. But we are very focused on helping you navigate the challenges that might come up in terms of setting boundaries or, you know, building balance that we have that ability to process and work through that with you. So I want you to know that we are available.

Reilly Chabie [00:45:32]: Couple other things that can be helpful, you know, especially if we're going back to some of those tips about setting up self care or building and relaxation caps has access to our massage chair, which mind you very awesome. We love using it. So please feel free to stop by and schedule an appointment to use our massage chair. We also have our biofeedback software system, which helps promote relaxation and reduction of anxiety through mindfulness practices. And we definitely love utilizing that. So you can always come and use our materials. Once again, we have our information, here. So our phone number, you can stop by the office or you can request an appointment online if you'd like to start seeing one of our counselors.

Reilly Chabie [00:46:16]: And then, of course, you can view all of our other information and other resources through the CAPS website. And then lastly, just some other areas on campus that might be helpful. So recreational services, they are awesome. They are very supportive in the process of wellness. They have a lot of great classes and certain things that are going on all the time. We have the student success center, which not only helps with maybe some of those academic challenges, but also just that ability to navigate your career or other things that are up and coming. There's also within the student success center, we have tutoring or supplemental instruction, depending on the types of courses you're taking. And we also have the Thompson library, which is just a great resource for additional materials.

Reilly Chabie [00:46:59]: We also have, they, they actually put on a lot of events throughout the year as well, and they can be a helpful space to collaborate, to connect and to kind of build some of these supports in play. So I appreciate your time. And I know that's a lot to think about, but overall there's a lot of supports here on campus for you. And there are ways to navigate balance. And as long as you're kind of looking at some of those areas of wellness, you'll definitely be able to create balance.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:47:28]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate education can often feel like an uncharted territory brimming with challenges and decisions that significantly impact one's career trajectory. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Giordano, Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at the University of Michigan - Flint, shared his multifaceted journey through various degrees, offering invaluable insights and advice for prospective and current grad students.

From English Literature to Counseling Services Dr. Giordano's journey began with an undergraduate degree in English Language and Literature from Rowan University. Although he cherished the skills acquired, it soon became evident that the path didn’t offer the career direction he sought. A year into a lackluster job as a copy editor, Dr. Giordano encountered an opportunity to delve into student affairs through a graduate residence director role. This serendipitous chance allowed him to pursue a Master's degree in Counseling Services, a move influenced largely by the practical benefits of a tuition waiver. "A lot of this is exploration and discovery and kind of being open to what could be," said Dr. Giordano, emphasizing the importance of adaptability.

The Stepping Stones: Certificates and Doctorates Dr. Giordano’s thirst for knowledge didn’t stop at a master’s degree. His career saw him picking up a graduate certificate in Adult and Organizational Learning from Suffolk University, which he described as a crucial stepping stone that prepared him mentally and academically for the rigors of a doctoral program. His eventual Ph.D. in Higher Education from the University of Toledo proved pivotal. "Understanding the environment that we work in, the institution type, different student demographics...really taught me just kind of the world of higher ed and expanded my lens,” he noted. Each academic pursuit was a calculated move to enrich his skills, broaden his scope, and offer deeper insights into student affairs.

Balancing Commitments: Keys to Success Dr. Giordano highlighted the importance of realistic goal-setting and time management. "You’re going to have to sacrifice something," he noted, speaking candidly about balancing full-time work, family commitments, and academic demands. His strategy involved turning a local coffee shop into his makeshift office and using late hours in his work office to focus on his studies. Personalizing his study environments and setting strict boundaries enabled him to successfully navigate through numerous academic challenges.

Empowering Students: A Holistic Approach Today, Dr. Giordano employs skills gleaned from his counseling background to manage both people and situations effectively. Active listening, empathy, and conflict resolution are tools he uses daily to support his team and the broader student body at the University of Michigan Flint. His biggest advice to students contemplating graduate education is to “follow your heart” and to pursue areas where they have genuine passion, reflecting his own son's decision to switch majors to meteorology—a bold step fueled by passion despite the rigorous path ahead.

Final Thoughts Dr. Giordano’s narrative is a testament to the nonlinear, often unpredictable paths that many take in their pursuit of higher education. His journey underscores the value of being adaptable, understanding oneself, and committing fully to one’s passions. Whether you are at the beginning of your journey or navigating through it, his insights offer a roadmap to making the most out of your graduate school experience.

For those contemplating graduate studies, Dr. Giordano’s story is a powerful reminder that the path to success is seldom straight but is always worth the journey.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We're on this journey of looking at grad school. You may be at the very beginning where you haven't even applied for grad yet, but you've got that inkling in your mind where you're saying to yourself, you know what? Grad school is where I am headed. And you're just starting to look at things, or you might have already applied. Maybe you got accepted already, or maybe you're in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: No matter where you are, you are on a journey, and it will be continue to be a journey until you're through that graduate school experience. And that's what this podcast is all about. It is here to help you along this journey to give you some tools for your toolbox and to give you some ideas, some thoughts, some perspectives from other people that have gone before you that can help you to see maybe some of the roadblocks, some of the barriers, some of the things that those bumps along the way that you might not anticipate, and so that you can start planning ahead of time. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have done this graduate school journey for themselves, and it can provide some of their own perspective. And today, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor. Christopher Giordano is with us today. And Doctor.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:34]: Christopher Giordano is the vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of Michigan Flint. And he went on his own graduate school journey. And we're gonna talk about that today. I'm really excited to have him here today to share that journey with you. Chris, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:01:47]: Oh, it's great to be here. Thanks, Chris. Happy to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:49]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I we're gonna go back in time. I wanna go back to those undergraduate days at Rowan University, where I know you did your undergraduate work. And, you know, you did that undergraduate work in English language and literature. But then at some point, after getting that first degree, you made a decision. You made a decision that you were gonna continue on and get a graduate degree in a different area in counseling services. So talk to me about what led you to decide initially that you wanted to move forward and move into that graduate degree?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:02:25]: Absolutely. So like you mentioned, we all have our own journeys, and there are multiple kind of factors and variables that enter into how we make the decisions we do or how we end up where we do. And for me, it was sort of unique in that I had an English literature, English degree as an undergrad, which I loved, prepared me in in ways I had not anticipated. Use those skills today still, but it didn't really provide me with a career path per se because I wasn't interested in in teaching. I wasn't interested in secondary ed. So I ended up, working as a copy editor at KPMG. So back in the day, there were the big six accounting firms. It was KPMG, Pete Warwick.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:03:19]: Now I think there are maybe 4 or who knows with all the with all the mergers. It was a very good global organization, but the work was not really what I was looking for. And sometimes you don't know until you do it. So I was literally editing business and consulting reports, and I would equate that to watching paint dry or watching a fan oscillate. I mean, it's pretty dry. Know, good experience, but not necessarily what I was looking for long term. So I did that for a year. And like many other people, you graduate, you need a an income.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:03:53]: So it was a steady income. But then at that point, I decided that I had some friends out in California, and we always talked about maybe living out there together, so moved out there. But I went out there during a very difficult time. It was during one of our recessions, and it was very difficult to find employment at that time. So I ended up coming back to New Jersey where I was from, and I was looking at all kinds of opportunities. And I saw this opportunity as a graduate residence director at a small private college in New Jersey, probably about 10 minutes outside of Manhattan. And I was applying to many things at the time. So I was considering graduate school, but I think this is what led me to pursue it at that time because I ended up getting that position.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:04:40]: And as part of that position, I was able to go back, get my master's for free in exchange for working in the residence halls. So that's what got me in, and the program that seemed to fit me best was their counseling services program. So I ended up enrolling in that program. And, you know, that's really provided me with with some, terrific, direction and skill development in ways that I hadn't anticipated as well. So a lot of this is exploration and discovery and and kind of being open to what could be and then being flexible with how you look at the next phases of your life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:16]: It's always important to look at those options. And, you know, it's interesting because when looking at some of your backgrounds, you also got another credential as you went along. You were working at Suffolk University and you got a graduate certificate, as adult in organizational learning. And then you continued on and got your doctorate degree at the University of Toledo, not exactly at the same time that you were working at the University of Toledo. So talk to me about those additional credentials. So you went on after the master's degree. You decided to continue learning, continuing to push yourself in different ways. What made you decide to get the graduate certificate, but then to push yourself even further to get that doctorate degree?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:05:54]: Having received the the master's in counseling at what was at the time of Uppsala College, we were required to have 2 experiential types of placements. 1 was a practicum, and 1 was an internship. So I completed a practicum in a counseling center at William Patterson University, which is a state university in New Jersey. And I completed an internship in career services at Montclair State University and another state university in Jersey. And then that really helped with my pathway into higher ed. So my first position was at Long Island University at the CW Post campus as a co op coordinator, but that sort of propelled me on on the pathway of careers in in higher ed. And in higher ed, our product is education. This is kinda what we do.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:06:44]: This is what we produce in addition to all kinds of other ancillary things. But, when you're in this this environment and in this culture, I think you continue to crave, you know, learning and more exploration, more discovery. So I had before I actually pursued that organizational learning certificate, I was working at the University of Connecticut and I enrolled in their doctoral program in human and family studies. My real path was in career in student affairs. That was my career path, but they didn't have a a student affairs program, student affairs higher ed. So this was one that I thought was close. You know, it was at a time in my life where I didn't have a lot of other demands on my time, and I thought it was, you know, the right time to go back. And and I took 2 or 3 classes in that program, and I just realized it wasn't for me.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:07:36]: If I was gonna dedicate the time and effort, I needed to do it in an area where I had more of a passion. So that's what led me to, so when I took that position up in Boston at Suffolk, they had an organizational learning certificate, which at the time was meant to help get me back into the mind space of pursuing a a doctoral degree. So, you know, when you're out of it for a while, you forget what it's like to be a student. You forget what it's like to be kind of in that space and the type of discipline and focus and sacrifice it takes to hold a full time job and and then to go back and pursue a degree. So that was really designed just to get me kind of back into the swing of things. So I completed that, and then that I felt I was better prepared then to enter into a doctoral program. And that's what I did at the University of Toledo.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:28]: And talk to me a little bit about the University of Toledo. You weren't working there, so it's not the same perspective in regards to some of your other degrees and working for those institutions. What made you decide that the University of Toledo was the right bit for the doctorate program that you chose to attend?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:08:43]: Well, I was working there for a short time, so I'll go a little far afield here, but my wife and I met in Boston. We were at the, working at the same university in Boston. She's originally from Toledo, born and raised. She was looking to get back there. We just had a couple kids and cost of living, close to family, all that kind of stuff. So I ended up accepting a position at the University of Toledo, and I worked there for a year. And I enrolled in their doctoral program during that 1st year. And I was only really interested in applying for positions at universities that had doctoral programs that I was interested in, and they had a higher ed doctoral program.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:09:19]: So I started there, and then again, this was in, I'm gonna say 2,009, and I think that was when another big recession hit. And my position was a newly created position, so it was one of the first that was that was sort of eliminated. So I began the program, transitioned into another role at another college, but then I maintained my my enrollment in that higher ed program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:42]: So in all of these different degrees, going from undergrad to masters, going into the certificate, going into the doctorate, every level, there are transitions. Every student goes through them. You started off by going from high school into undergrad, undergrad into those additional degrees, and you found success in those. You got through the degrees. You kept moving forward in your career. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in those different degrees? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experiences?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:10:15]: Yeah. I would say a big part of this for me is you understanding the commitment that it's gonna take to get through this, especially when you have all these other demands in your life. If you're working a full time job, if you do have a family, if you have other sort of obligations and responsibilities, you're gonna have to sacrifice something. And for me, I knew I wasn't really willing to sacrifice the time with my kids, so it was all the other sort of leisure activities that I would normally do. And my time was really spent just focusing on classes, study time, weekends would be dedicated to study. And for me, I knew I couldn't do it at home. There were just too many distractions at home. So I remember in Toledo, there's this little Big B Coffee Shop, and I would take up this corner table in this big b coffee shop, and I would be there every week, every month for years, and that was sort of my my office.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:11:11]: The other place I I would work, I would stay late in my office at work, and I would work there as well. I just knew that, trying to work at home was not gonna be, I think, effective for me, which is just personal. It's, you know, it's it's what works best for you. So I needed to make those decisions about what I was willing to, eliminate to create additional time for me to do the things I needed to do to be successful. And and if you enter into something, you you certainly wanna set yourself up for success. And I think sometimes that's that's where we we fall down a little bit is not really taking into account how this is gonna affect the rest of your life, and then making those sort of intentional decisions about how you're gonna alter that to allow yourself to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:56]: Now you've had numerous degrees. They've been at in different types of areas. Talk to me about, as you look back at your graduate education and you look back at your career and the work that you're doing now as a vice chancellor for student affairs at the University of Michigan Flint, how do you feel that those graduate degrees, your undergraduate degree, all of these degrees in total, have prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:12:21]: I think it's a great question. And I and I think each has served a role. As an undergraduate English major, it really teaches you how to think critically. It develops effective problem solving skills. It certainly helps with developing strong communication skills, certainly written communications. That's a huge part of my position here constantly, you know, having to craft different communications, whether it's it's out to the campus, whether it's to other constituents needing to speak in front of groups. So you have to develop, you know, the the ability to to, craft comments and be effective at public speaking. So the English degree has really helped me, I would say, throughout my career.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:13:05]: And and again, in ways that I didn't necessarily anticipate. And my my counseling degree has really helped me as as a supervisor and as as a leader. It's really provided me, and I use these counseling skills every day. The active listening skills, you know, empathy and and conflict resolution, team building. All of these things through counseling, I really use on a daily basis because as you continue to grow in your career, and certainly along my career path, you take on more of an administrative role. And as an administrator, what you're doing is managing people and situations. And that is the lion's share of what you do, and you have to have sort of the emotional intelligence and the ability to manage people in effective ways and hold people accountable, but at the same time provide them with the kind of support and resources they need to be successful. So much of what I learned in counseling has really allowed me to focus in on what some of the issues are, whether it's person centered or issue centered, and then really develop some intentional ways of meeting needs of of people or managing people in situations.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:14:24]: But I remember when I was a counselor in some of these counseling sessions, you are so laser focused on not only what somebody is saying, but how they're saying it, what their body language is, what their facial expressions are. And these are all different types of communications. So I continue to use that as I work with people and really try to necessarily what they're truly communicating or what truly the issue is. And really try being sure that you're you're not solving what you think the issue is, but you're at the heart of truly what is the issue, and then you're you're kind of getting at that. So counseling has certainly helped me with that. And then the doctoral degree, that's really understanding the environment that we work in, the institution type, different student demographics, what you can know through data about your student population on the way in, so you can prepare for what some of these needs are gonna be, what some of these gap areas are, and how you continue to create the conditions and environments that allow them to be successful. And in many ways, especially at the type of institution that we work at, it's a very targeted approach because we have such a diverse student population. So that really taught me just kind of the world of higher ed and expanded my lens, I think, and the scope of my view of what higher ed was at all the different types of institutions that we have and how to best serve students for them to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:15:57]: So while I can't claim that this was all planned because it certainly was not, it all fell into place in a way that has worked. So that's part of the message too is sometimes things happen in ways that you hadn't planned. And I think if you're just open to those possibilities, you can arrive at a destination through a route that you didn't anticipate.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:23]: The path is not always a straight line.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:16:25]: That's for sure.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:27]: Many times circuitous in the easy sense of the word. So as you look back at your graduate education and you think about students that you've interacted with over your career and you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:16:46]: Yeah. I would say giving yourself the time and the grace to really understand who you are, understand yourself. Give yourself an opportunity to truthfully assess what your strengths are, you know, what your interests are, what environments you feel comfortable in, but also to be comfortable with accepting who we are. All of us, we're all a whole collection of things. Some good, some not so good, and that's okay, but that's who we are. But give yourself an opportunity to really understand yourself. And I think that will help to eliminate some potential paths, but then open up some others that maybe we didn't anticipate. Because we wanna again, what we try to do with all of our students is we wanna create the conditions to allow them to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:17:33]: You want to enter into some areas that will amplify your strengths and will take advantage of things that you're good at or you truly have an interest and a passion about. And, you know, that would be another piece is really trying to pursue something or an area that that you you have a passion about. Because you're gonna come to work every day whether you like it or not, and we hope that you like it. So, you know, do something that you really have a passion about. And one example I can provide is my son. So my son just started as a freshman at Saint Louis University, got accepted into the business school. It's a good business school. I mean, he was in pretty good shape.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:18:12]: But he's been hinting around that that's really not what he's interested. That's not his passion. He has always been interested in weather, always. But I also understand that there is a lot of math and science involved with atmospheric science and meteorology or whatever it might be. And I was a little gun shy about him moving in that direction because it's gonna be pretty rigorous. But he stuck to his guns, I give him credit, and he's changed his major. He's now a meteorology major, and he's following that path. And I give him credit.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:18:42]: And it's hard sometimes when people like me as a parent are encouraging you maybe in another direction, but you gotta stick to your guns. And you know what's best for you. And I know it's not always easy, but follow your heart. You know what's in there. You know what's really gonna be best for you, and stick to your guns. And then I think you'll be true to yourself and put yourself on the right path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:03]: Well, Chris, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, your advice and sharing some of the things that you've learned along the way, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Christopher Giordano [00:19:11]: Chris, thanks so much. This was a lot of fun. Really enjoyed it, and keep up the good work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:16]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a unique journey marked by both challenges and triumphs. For those pursuing careers in the healthcare sector, like Yasmine Affes, a Physician Assistant (PA) student at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey is even more demanding and rewarding. In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Yasmin shares her insights, from choosing a graduate program to finding success within it. This blog explores her journey, her path to leadership, and her tips for future graduate students.

The Journey to Graduate School Yasmine's journey to graduate school began in high school, ignited by her passion for math and science and guided by her mother, a physician. Unlike many who stumble upon their career paths, Yasmine was proactive, researching various medical professions with her mother's help. She discovered the PA role, a perfect blend of her interests and career aspirations, offering flexibility across various medical specialties.

Yasmine received her undergraduate degree in Sports and Exercise Science from Wayne State University. During her undergrad years, she accumulated essential clinical hours and served as President of the Pre-PA Society, demonstrating her leadership potential early on.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program Selecting the right graduate program can be overwhelming. Yasmin solely applied to the PA program at the University of Michigan Flint, a decision influenced by her extensive research and active involvement in the Pre-PA Society. Her interaction with the program director and faculty, coupled with the program's commitment to serving underserved communities like Flint, cemented her choice.

"I loved everything about U of M Flint's program... and I could not be more happy with my decision. The biggest reason I chose PA was because of the flexibility," Yasmin shares.

Overcoming Challenges Graduate school is notoriously challenging, a truth Yasmine experienced first-hand. She struggled in her first semester, even failing an exam. Rather than view these setbacks as failures, Yasmin leveraged them as learning opportunities.

"Grad school is a different beast... but those are the topics we're truly interested in," she reflects. Yasmin adapted her study techniques, focusing on creating questions and scenarios that deepened her understanding of medical conditions.

The support from faculty and resources like a learning specialist played crucial roles in her academic turnaround. Reflecting on her journey, Yasmine emphasizes the importance of resilience and adapting one's study methods to meet the rigors of graduate education.

Leadership and Advocacy Yasmine's leadership journey didn't stop at the state level. Her involvement with the Michigan Academy of Physician Associates (MAPPA) piqued her interest in national advocacy. Encouraged by peers and her own drive, Yasmin ran for and was elected President-Elect of the Student Academy with the American Academy of Physician Associates (AAPA).

This role blends her passion for advocacy and leadership, allowing her to impact legislation and advocate for PA students nationwide. Yasmin expresses a deep commitment to increasing diversity within the PA profession and advocating for underserved communities.

Tips for Future Graduate Students Drawing from her experiences, Yasmine offers several tips to future graduate students, particularly those in clinically based programs:

1. Active Learning: Passive learning is insufficient for mastering complex medical topics. Yasmin recommends actively engaging with the material by creating detailed scenarios and questions to test understanding.
2. Utilize Resources: Most graduate programs offer support resources like learning specialists. Yasmin found these invaluable in overcoming academic hurdles.
3. Network and Get Involved: Building a robust professional network is crucial. Yasmin’s involvement in state and national advocacy not only broadened her network but also enriched her educational experience.
4. Resilience: Accept setbacks as part of the process. Yasmin’s initial struggles were pivotal in developing the adaptive strategies that led to her success.

Yasmine Affes’ journey underscores the importance of preparation, adaptability, and involvement in finding success in graduate school. Her story is a testament to the impact of resilience and leadership in overcoming challenges and making a difference.

For those on the cusp of their graduate school journey, Yasmin's experiences offer a blueprint for navigating this complex and rewarding path successfully. As she continues to advocate for PA students and underserved communities, Yasmin exemplifies the potential for graduate students to make significant contributions to their fields and communities.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, you are on a journey. And I say it's a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person that is thinking about graduate school is in graduate school, sees that light at the end of the tunnel because you're almost done with graduate school. Wherever you are in this continuum of thinking about or being in graduate school, you're on that journey, and you're working toward the goals that you that you have set for yourself. And that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:48]: Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, and to be a resource for you, to help you to be able to step through that journey, walk through that journey to help you along the way. And that's why every week we bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that have walked on this path like yourself, that are currently in graduate school, have completed graduate school, but have figured out some things along the way about what it takes to find success in that journey. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Yasmin Afes is with us today, and Yasmin is a physician assistant student at the University of Michigan, Flint. She did her undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And then soon after graduating, she made that decision of applying to graduate school and decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint. But I'm really excited to be able to talk with her about her experiences and her journey into graduate school and now through graduate school, and I'm happy to introduce her to you today. Yasmin, thanks so much for being here today.

Yasmine Affes [00:01:58]: No. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:59]: It is my pleasure. I'm really excited to be able to talk with you. I mentioned that you had done your undergraduate work at Wayne State University. And every student has that origin story and that journey that they go on. You did your bachelor's degree in sports and exercise science. And sometime along the way, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on to work toward being a physician assistant. I know you've got involved as an undergraduate student in the pre PA society there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:30]: You were the president of the pre PA society there. So bring me back. Let's go back to that beginning and talk to me about those first steps. And what were the reasons that you chose that you wanted to continue on to go to graduate school to become a physician assistant?

Yasmine Affes [00:02:44]: Yeah. So I actually started in high school. My senior year of high school, I remember thinking like, what school do I want to go to and what do I wanna major in? Because those things determine what I wanna do for the rest of my life as well. So I was like concerned about it because I had no idea what I wanted to do. I guess that was most people in high school. I was like, I need to figure this out. Like, I need to come up with a plan. And I talked to my parents about it.

Yasmine Affes [00:03:09]: I was like, I don't wanna go to medical school, but I like medicine. Like, I like math and science. Those have always been my strong suits. And my mom told me about the PA profession. And we both did research together about it and saw, like, what I needed to do. So my senior year of high school, she actually put me in I'm lucky because my mom is in also in medicine. My mom was a physician. So she helped me a lot guide me through the ropes.

Yasmine Affes [00:03:33]: But, throughout this journey, like, I have that guidance. So what I try to do is give it back to others. So my mom put me in certified nurse assistant course. So my first job was a CNA out of high school, And then I accumulated my patient care hours throughout undergraduate. I worked as a COVID tester. I worked as a medical assistant for a pulmonologist for two and a half years. So I got all of my hours in during undergrad so that I could just go straight from undergrad to PA school. So that kind of worked out well for me, and I got really involved at Wayne State as well.

Yasmine Affes [00:04:09]: I actually chose Wayne State first because it's a good, like, medical school or and, like, it has great math and science courses. But second, because I ran track in college, I always wanted to run track, and I wanted to pick a school where I could do that and something I'm interested in. So and then I ended up starting my own club at Wayne State called Herd Immunity where we discussed vaccines and the importance of vaccines. And I think, like, having that extra curricular involvement and being involved in the community in Detroit an underserved area and applying to school that's in Flint also an underserved area those attributes were very appealing for me and my application. I I feel like U of M Flint was actually the only graduate school I applied to that cycle. I really enjoyed the program. I went to so many monthly meetings and I loved the faculty. They knew my face because I would ask so many questions every time but I loved everything about U of M Flint's program and that ended up being the only school I applied to and I could not be more happy with my decision.

Yasmine Affes [00:05:15]: And I love PA school. My mom says no matter which PA school you would go to you would love it, but I think our faculty is super supportive, and it's been amazing. The biggest reason I chose PA was because of the flexibility. So you can work in any specialty. We're trained as generalist. We're based on the medical model, so we're learning similar things to students in medical school are, maybe a little less detailed. There's a lot less histology, like cellular level things, and there's less pathophysiology. We learn really the nitty gritty, the basics, and then we build upon that.

Yasmine Affes [00:05:51]: So we also don't get any breaks throughout school. It's a continuous 27 no. Mine is 28 month program. The average program in the country is 27 months. That's why I ended up choosing PA school, and I'm really happy with that decision.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:07]: So I can tell you did your research, which is great because not everybody does as thorough of research as it seems like you did to figure out the right program for you, and you did choose to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. Bring me back to that decision making process for you. You did say that you did your research and you only applied to the one program. Not everybody chooses to do that in the in the CASPA system, and, you know, many people will choose to try a couple of programs that seem like good fits. So what were you looking for in a PA program, and what made you ultimately decide that the University of Michigan Flint was that only pro program that you're going to apply to?

Yasmine Affes [00:06:47]: Yeah. So I went to the most monthly meetings for U of M Flint. I went to so many during undergraduate because I was the president of the pre PA society. I had to talk about these programs and what makes them different and different attributes. So I had to educate myself, but also it was a win win because I had to learn about the other programs in the state for myself so that I knew what would be the best fit for me. Our program director, Gilkey, she actually spoke to our pre PA society. And the first time she spoke to us, I think I was a sophomore in college, and I was running that meeting because the higher ups couldn't go. So I was asking professor Gilkey questions about the program, and I fell in love with it then and there.

Yasmine Affes [00:07:27]: She really talked about wanting to support the community of Flint and things that we could do to help Flint. There's like a volunteer program. We go to we go to schools and tutor kids in an after school program. I think we did it about 3 or 4 times a semester for a few hours, and those were pivotal moments to see, like, what is really happening in our community. I had a child who was crying and I thought, oh, she might have gotten hurt. She might have been bullied or something. And I went up to her and I was like, why are you crying, sweetie? And she had tooth pain. And I looked in her mouth with a flashlight and she had the worst cavity rotten tooth I've ever seen.

Yasmine Affes [00:08:08]: Like, she's never been to the dentist and just seeing, like, the health disparities in this community and wanting to be able to help them. I've always wanted to work in an underserved community. I plan to work in an area similar to Flint or Detroit or somewhere where I can truly make a difference. And I think having that experience in a community like this is amazing. I mean, she didn't go into as much detail as that when she was talking about it, but I was really in awe of the program and the things that they do to help blend in. So that's ultimately why I chose it. And, also, because CASPA has a different application cycle, our school isn't rolling, and the application deadline was later than the other schools, and I just didn't feel confident. I feel like I'm kind of a perfectionist, and it was ultimately, like, one of my top choices.

Yasmine Affes [00:08:56]: So I was, like, it's okay if I just apply to one school this cycle. I can apply to much more. And the high school is extremely competitive. Like, I was not thinking I was gonna get in the first time, especially only limiting myself to one school. For the students listening, I recommend applying to, like, 7 to 9, but really truly doing your research on every program and every single requirement. Because a lot of schools, if you don't meet all of the requirements, they don't even look at your application. So it's super important to do your research and take time. And I felt like giving all of my time and energy into one school definitely upped my chances, but also, like, limited myself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:33]: Now every student goes through a transition and you go through undergraduate, you're taught in a specific way. You get used to that way as you go through that experience. And then you go to grad school. And in grad school, it's very different, especially being in a clinically based program, very different model of education, learning, etcetera. So there is that transition of being able to make that jump from undergraduate to graduate and being able to find success in that. So talk to me about what you had to do. What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you entered into the program? What have you had to do to maintain that success as you've gone through the program thus far?

Yasmine Affes [00:10:16]: Yeah. Grad school is a different beast. Everyone tells you it's so much harder than undergrad, but you truly don't understand until you're in it. And I struggled a lot my 1st semester. I was failing exams. I was not confident in myself. I thought, oh my god. Like, I'm the only one in my class who failed this.

Yasmine Affes [00:10:34]: Like, I'm not cut out for PA school. But at the end of the day, these are the topics we're truly interested in. Like, this is the medicine. This is things that are helping people. And in the future, we will need this knowledge no matter what. So I just changed up my study tactics, and I failed a class my 1st semester, which was really scary. But since then on, I I never failed again. I found my groove, and I think it helped me learn, like, oh my god.

Yasmine Affes [00:11:01]: This is really serious, and I need to put more effort into finding a way that works for me to study. But, wow, grad school is so difficult. I've finally found my way, and I think right now I'm doing really well, and I only accredit it to my failures on the past.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:19]: And sometimes you have to have those stumbles, those failures along the way. And sometimes that's difficult because students that go to graduate school, sometimes they had smooth sailing in undergrad, did really well, didn't have any stumbles in there, and then they get to graduate school. And then that confidence, that imposter syndrome sets in, and you feel like, should I be here? Am I cut out for this? Is this really what and you gotta tell that brain of yours to just shut up and be able to keep moving forward because, like you said, you found your groove. It may take a little bit of time and figuring out, okay, what do I have to do different in this type of education versus what I had to do as an undergrad?

Yasmine Affes [00:12:03]: Yeah. And for our program, we have a learning specialist that also works with the medical students at U of M. So she will tell you what to change up and help you along the way as well. We have a great faculty who will support you along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:17]: So one of the other things that I know that you did, you you were very involved as an undergraduate student. And then as you got into your work here in the PA program, you decided to get involved with the Michigan Academy of Physician Associates. You became a class representative. You got involved, with the public relations committee. You did a number of things, which I'll have to say, probably should not be a surprise with how involved you were as an undergraduate student. But that's good because I've talked about in the past that it's important for your future success to be able to not only focus on the academics, because that's why you're here, but to create that network for yourself and build other opportunities. But now you ran and you are the president-elect for the student academy with the American Academy of Physician Associates. Talk to me about this position that you now are in and what you're going to be in as you become the president of the student academy and why you decided that you wanted to get involved at that national level?

Yasmine Affes [00:13:19]: So I was extremely involved at the state level. I was going to the MAPPA summit, which is our Capitol Hill day, advocating for bills that PAs should be included in. We're not trying to increase the scope of practice in any type of way, but I think it was we were left out of because our profession is still so new. But we talk about the bills with the legislators and they're like, yeah. Like, I don't know why you're not in this. It's like very basic. So it was a learning experience because it sounds so scary to talk to a legislator, but they're just people. They're just like us, and they absolutely love to hear from their constituents.

Yasmine Affes [00:13:52]: So I thought that was a really impactful experience. And then we actually brought a legislator in to speak to our program, and I felt like I was getting a lot of leadership and experience through Michigan Academy of Physician Associates. And then Kyle, one of my classmates, he is our leadership and advocacy chair in our student society, and he brought in our student adviser for the student academy from AAPA. And she spoke with us and told us about different leadership opportunities and said anyone could run any PA student. And I was like, wow. Like, I just assumed that only the American Academy of Physician Associate class representative could run for these positions. I had no idea a Michigan state representative could. So I was like, wow.

Yasmine Affes [00:14:36]: I have all of this great leadership experience. I've done so much for the state of Michigan. I bet I could push it further and do it for the whole country. I have the time. I have the study group now. I love being involved. I'm super passionate about it. I will always take time out of my day if it can make a positive impact.

Yasmine Affes [00:14:55]: So I was like, I feel like I'm the right person for this job, and I wasn't gonna run for that position right away. The president, it's kind of an intimidating position. I was thinking about running for the communications director position, and I wrote this whole speech and I gave it to my sister. And my sister was like, it really sounds like you wanna run for president. So I was like, you know what? Go big or go home. Like, let's just do it, see what happens. So I did run, and I was a little bit worried because all of the other positions are just 1 year positions, and this one is a 2 year position. But I was like, it's okay.

Yasmine Affes [00:15:29]: When I'm a PA, no matter what, I'll still be involved, so might as well just take on this role. So I ended up running. I ran against a few other candidates, and we had to write a speech. And it was a lot of fun along the process, and everyone was super nice and helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:45]: So talk to me about some of the things that you hope to be able to accomplish in that year that you're going to be president of the group.

Yasmine Affes [00:15:53]: As president-elect, I kind of take on the vice president role, and we have 4 different committees for the student academy. And different regional directors and different positions can take on chair of those. I can't. So I end up I'm gonna be the liaison for all 4 committees. So I go to each committee meeting, and I help out where it's needed. I get resources from AAPA where it's needed. And then starting in July, I'll start my president role, and that's where I'll be working more with the big board of the nation. So I will be the student representative advocating for students on the national board with the president of AAPA and all the rest.

Yasmine Affes [00:16:35]: So I'll definitely be able to make more of an impact in that role, but both are extremely important and fulfilling in both ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:42]: Are there specific things that during your president year that you ran on that you hope that you can accomplish in that year that you're going to be president?

Yasmine Affes [00:16:51]: Yeah. I think that's this year. I'm definitely learning from the president now. I'm glad I'm not just being thrown into the ropes, and I get to really figure out what I want to do that is an attainable goal because I feel like my goals are very difficult to achieve. I might need to level it down maybe, but basically increasing diversity in the PA profession, having people with different perspectives, different backgrounds, even myself. I am lucky to have that guidance from my mother who is in medicine and not everyone has the opportunity. So definitely going to high schools and underserved areas, speaking to them about the PA profession, how the route they can take to get into PA school and having their voices heard and their communities being seen, that's a huge thing that I want to see in the future.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:37]: Now you're currently in the program. You're in your 2nd year of the program. And as you said, you had some stumbling blocks at the beginning. You learned some things. As you think about future graduate students, could be in PA, could be in some other area, but as you think about students that are thinking about graduate school, and you think of the experiences you've had thus far, as you look back on the education you've had and what you have to come, what are some tips that you might recommend to these other students that could help them find success sooner?

Yasmine Affes [00:18:08]: So what I kind of learned is passive learning is absolutely nothing. It's not gonna do anything for you. You have to be actively using your thoughts in your brain. So what I like to do is I like to read our slides and our materials and write questions. I will write a vignette, like a 2 order question myself so that if I can answer this question, I know the whole entire disorder disease. So I would do, like, 28 year old with a history of hypertension and and has a sore on their leg. They're having cramping when they're walking and their legs are cold to touch. And then I would say, what's the first line treatment? So you have no idea what disorder they have.

Yasmine Affes [00:18:50]: You have to figure out what disorder they have, and then you have to know what's the treatment. So it's 2 different thoughts into this question. So I like to write those for each condition. And then first off, it builds the story of of a patient in my brain. And then I have to know that whole disease to answer that question. And then just having that second order thoughts actively. You're thinking about, like, what other people would be thinking about. And just having that thought process helps me so much.

Yasmine Affes [00:19:18]: I actually write questions for my classmates, and I send it to them. And they'll take the exams that I write before our exams, and everyone loves it. And that's how I study. I I never really did anything outside of that because it took so much time to write those questions. That helped me a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:33]: Well, Yasmin, I wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I truly am excited to hear more about this journey that you're going to be on, to be the president of this national group coming up and representing not only the University of Michigan Flint, but representing PAs across the nation and upcoming PAs across the nation. And I truly wish you all the best.

Yasmine Affes [00:19:57]: Thank you so much for having me. I wish you the best as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:00]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is more than just an extension of your undergraduate education. It’s an intricate journey that demands dedication, strategic planning, and a deep understanding of one's personal and professional goals. In a recent episode of the "Victor's in Grad School" podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Caroline Rathbun, a communication and digital marketing specialist, to discuss her path from undergraduate studies to a successful career in digital marketing. Caroline’s story is both inspiring and enlightening for anyone considering or currently navigating through graduate school.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate School

Caroline’s journey began with an undergraduate degree in design and visual communications from the University of Michigan Flint. Like many graduates, she was in the process of figuring out her career aspirations. While she appreciated her field, she realized that graphic design alone didn’t fulfill her professional ambitions.

This epiphany led Caroline to leave her first job and venture into freelancing, allowing her to explore different facets of the communication field. It was through freelancing, especially her projects with prominent organizations in Flint, that she discovered her passion for digital marketing and social media management. Recognizing the shift from traditional to digital media, she decided it was time to pursue a master's degree in strategic communications to advance her career.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

Selecting a graduate program is a pivotal step. Caroline's decision to enroll in Michigan State University’s strategic communications master’s program was influenced by several factors. She conducted thorough research, prioritizing programs that offered a robust curriculum and flexibility. Michigan State’s online program stood out for its reputation and comprehensive course offerings, and it also allowed her to manage her studies alongside her professional responsibilities.

Caroline emphasized the importance of aligning the program with one’s learning styles and personal commitments. She recognized that an online program suited her better due to her tendency to lose focus in traditional classroom settings. The flexibility to learn at her own pace was a game-changer.

Transitioning to Graduate School

The transition to graduate school can be daunting. However, Caroline found that having a clear goal and purpose made the shift smoother. She approached graduate school with a focused mindset, aware of the sacrifices she would need to make, such as setting aside dedicated study time and balancing work and studies.

Caroline stresses the importance of self-awareness in understanding one's learning and research methods. For her, project-based work was more effective than rote memorization and testing. This self-understanding helped her choose a program that matched her strengths, thereby enhancing her chances of success.

Maximizing the Graduate School Experience

Engagement and intentionality were key factors in Caroline’s success. Despite the online nature of her program, she made it a point to stay connected and engaged with her coursework and classmates. She approached discussion boards with genuine interest, contributing meaningfully rather than merely fulfilling requirements.

Throughout her graduate journey, Caroline was proactive in applying her learning to real-world situations. For instance, a course on crisis communication proved invaluable when she found herself implementing a crisis communication plan during the COVID-19 pandemic at Kettering University.

Graduate School's Impact on Career

Caroline’s graduate education significantly impacted her career path. The skills she acquired, especially in strategic communication and digital marketing, were directly applicable to her roles post-graduation. Her current position at the University of Michigan Flint involves mass communication, digital signage, and strategic engagement with the campus community—tasks that her master’s program prepared her for.

Courses she once questioned—like crisis communication—became unexpectedly relevant, showcasing the importance of a diverse and comprehensive curriculum.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

For those considering graduate school, Caroline offers valuable advice: start by deeply understanding yourself. Recognize your study preferences, professional goals, and life circumstances. Choose a program that aligns with your strengths and accommodates your lifestyle.

Planning is crucial. Envision the next few years of your life and anticipate potential challenges. Graduate school often coincides with significant life events, so being prepared can help manage unexpected hurdles and keep you on track to achieve your academic and professional goals.

Caroline Rathbun’s journey from an undergraduate student uncertain about her career path to a successful digital marketing specialist is a testament to the transformative power of graduate education. Her story underscores the importance of self-awareness, strategic planning, and proactive engagement in achieving success in graduate school. For anyone considering this path, Caroline’s insights provide a valuable roadmap to navigate the complexities of advanced education and emerge victorious in your professional endeavors.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, you and I are on a journey together. This journey is all about the graduate school hopes, dreams that you have for yourself and the things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey. And I say journey because it is a journey. Every one of you is on a journey that is very unique to who you are, and it's so important to understand that it is going to be different for every person. However, there are things that you can do right now, whether you're in graduate school or not, to be able to set yourself up for success and to do things even while you're in graduate school to find even greater success, to help you to be able to take the most out of that experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:11]: That's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is about helping you to be able to find success in this journey. And that's why every week, I bring you different people with different experiences that have done different things, but they've all done one thing that is similar. They all went to graduate school. Now, the graduate school journey that they were on is gonna be different than the one that you're on, but they still had to do things to find success in their own journey. And so I hope that in all of these conversations that we have, you've got some paper out, you've got your pen out, you've got some some you've got your listening ears open to be able to help you to take some tools for your toolbox and be able to prepare you well. Today, we got another great guest with us. Caroline Rathbun is with us today, and Caroline is the communication and digital marketing specialist for the division of student affairs at the University of Michigan Flint, and she has her own journey of doing her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, but then leaving and going to Michigan State University for a master's degree in strategic communications.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: We're gonna talk about that journey today, and I'm really excited to have her here. Caroline, thanks so much for being here.

Caroline Rathbun [00:02:29]: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited about this. It's a fun opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:33]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here as well. And I guess first and foremost, I wanna go back in time. I said you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and you did that undergraduate degree in design and visual communications.

Caroline Rathbun [00:02:49]: Correct. Yep.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:50]: And then you went off, you did some work. And during that work life, you you started to get those professional experiences. But sometime in the first few years, you got the inkling that you wanted to do something a little bit different. You wanted to go a little bit further, and you wanted to go to graduate school. So bring me back to that point. What made you decide that you wanted to go to grad school?

Caroline Rathbun [00:03:14]: Yeah. So, I mean, after my time at U of M Flint, I still felt like I was still kind of in that figuring it out phase. I had attained my degree. I was ecstatic about that. I honestly never thought I was a person that was gonna go beyond maybe even an associate's degree. So the fact that I had earned a bachelor's degree was, it was big for me. So after a couple years just kind of out in the workforce, I realized pretty quickly that I didn't wanna exclusively do graphic design. As much as I loved the field and the design aspect of it, I just I wanted more.

Caroline Rathbun [00:03:42]: I wanted to use my brand in a different way than just design. So I left my first job out of college, and I set out on my own as a freelancer. And I had a great opportunity to work for some really awesome business and organizations in Flint. I got to do some freelance work for the Krim Fitness Foundation, Redwood Restaurant Management Group, Sky Point Ventures, a lot of different groups. And during that time, I did some graphic design work, but that's kind of what introduced me into some more of the digital marketing side of things, the social media management, and just a little bit more into the communications field. So that's really what kind of sparked that interest and understanding that I think in order for me to get to that next level, I wanted to find a program that was really kind of on the cutting edge in the beginning of this transformation we were seeing from your traditional print media marketing to the digital side. So looking into programs, I found that Michigan State had, the strategic communications master's program, and I grew up a Michigan State fan, so that was kind of a plus. But also Michigan State has a really great reputation for their communications fields and degrees, so that was a huge selling point.

Caroline Rathbun [00:04:45]: And it was fully online. So I knew at that time I was gonna be going back into a full time job after kind of doing some freelancing for a while. So I wanted something that allowed me to have some flexibility to be able to go at my own pace with earning this master's while I was still trying to figure out a lot of my early career goals and ambitions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:02]: So you you talked about the fact that you did a little bit of research, and you were trying to find a program that had specific aspects to it, and you found that Michigan State was that program for yourself. Bring me back to that point of the research that you were doing. What were you looking for in a program, and what were some of the linchpins? And you kinda talked a little bit about this already, but what were some of those linchpins that made Michigan State outweigh other schools? And what were some of the other things that you were considering when you were looking at programs side by side? Unless it was just one program that you ended up saying it was it's only this program.

Caroline Rathbun [00:05:39]: Yeah. It kind of ended up being the one program, but it was more so that it was kind of the timing of it. I while I was a little bit impulsive to do to apply for grad school, I applied pretty late in the application process, but because it was a newer program, they were happy to accept me kind of later on in the stage. I looked into some other programs a little bit once I kind of understood that was the area I wanted to focus in. But this one really just had, I think, the most robust offerings. And with it being an online program, that was just a huge thing for me because I knew I wasn't gonna have the time to be going into classes. And whether that be commuting to another school or if I was still staying local, finding somewhere nearby that offered what I was looking for fully.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: Now making a transition into graduate school is always a transition, and it's challenging in its own way because you're going from the way in which you've been educated as an undergraduate student and the expectations in graduate school are different and sometimes much more challenging, and faculty are going to expect more of you in many different ways. So talk to me about that transition because you were able to find success in going through graduate school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned into graduate school? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school program?

Caroline Rathbun [00:07:00]: Yeah. I think going into graduate school versus starting your undergraduate, it's just a completely different mindset, at least that I went into it with because like I said before, I was very unclear on what I wanted to do for a long time. You know, I started off at Mott Community College, transferred over to U of M Flint. And at that time, I was just just figuring out a lot of who I was even as a person. And by the time I made it to that grad school stage, for me, it was the shift that like this was for me in my goals. What, you know, I was able to be in more of a focus program that was meeting the the goals that I had as a professional and learning the things that I wanted to learn. So I think that helped a lot and just reframing my mindset because I think a lot of times in undergrad, you have to take a lot of classes that may not interest you or there's more distractions just socially and things like that. So that was a big thing too.

Caroline Rathbun [00:07:45]: It's just shifting my mindset to understanding the sacrifices I would have to make as a graduate student, knowing I'd have to set aside dedicated time to work on this, to focus on this. And and that was another thing. I just know that I was more successful in my undergrad when I had online classes than I did in person because I would tend to not want to always attend my classes regularly. So that was another big thing for me was just knowing that I could do it at my own pace. I could set kind of my own class schedule, and I think that's important for people when they're looking into a program to understand that that about myself. I know even throughout a program through a longer semester, I was diagnosed at a young age with ADHD. I tend to lose focus, lose intention, get distracted. So it was just a lot of work for me to remember to maintain that and why I was doing that and bringing myself back to it.

Caroline Rathbun [00:08:31]: You know, I'm taking out these loans. I'm gonna have to pay them back. I need to make sure I'm making that worth it worth the time, and I'm getting the most out of this experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:39]: So you talked about taking the most out of this experience. Talk to me about what you did during graduate school to do just that.

Caroline Rathbun [00:08:46]: Yeah. I really, I really tried to make note. It being online, you're not gonna have the same experience as an in person where you're gonna be talking to people in classes or just seeing people around the hallway. But I wanted to make sure that I still felt some connection towards the school and towards the university. So just trying to make sure I was very engaged in my classes. A lot of times online, you have to do your typical standard question boards, you would talk to 2 people, not just going in and doing it just to go through the motions, but trying to be very intentional and mindful just about my approach in the classes and how I communicated with people. And even with the classes that may not have been a peak interest to me, just trying to understand that there is a reason that they want me to take the class. There's a reason that I'm here.

Caroline Rathbun [00:09:27]: I am going to try to it may not be the one that interests me the most, but I'm going to engage with it and try to to understand why it's something that I should be learning throughout my grad school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:37]: Now you did finish up your degree, and you went off back into the workforce and now you're here at the University of Michigan Flint in a new role. And I guess as you look back to your graduate school experience and you think about the work that you're doing on a daily basis, how do you feel that your graduate degree helped prepare you not only for the work you're doing right today, but the work you've been doing since graduate school?

Caroline Rathbun [00:09:59]: I think I look at so much of the stuff I learned during that time and I apply it on a daily basis. I'm communicating out to the campus on a mass level. I'm sending out email communications and putting things out on our digital signage. So that's a big part of it is understanding the brand voice, making sure I'm aligning with the brand standards of the university, and just understanding my audience and the target audience that I'm trying to get to and reach to. So that's a big thing. You know, I've only been in this role for about 2 months now. But just trying to bring a lot of the strategy side to it and the intentional side of using the information we can collect, whether it's data points from how students are communicating, engaging with our material, or just seeing how students are around campus, understanding what their needs are. And a lot of that in my master's program was just really trying to use data and research in areas like that to better understand what your audience needs.

Caroline Rathbun [00:10:49]: And so when we're communicating or marketing to them, we are making sure our message is being heard, and it's being heard to the right people. So I use a lot in a day to day basis. And even beyond that, you know, like I was saying, one of the classes that I took during my master's was crisis communication. And at the time, I didn't really I was like, I don't really understand why I need to take this. I'm not gonna be in a crisis communication type team. Lo and behold, right when I'm about to graduate, COVID happens. I'm working at Kettering University on their communications and marketing team, and we had to implement crisis communication plan on a whim. And thankfully, I had that knowledge from my program that helped me to be able to build the foundation of everything that we needed to put out throughout campus while we were dealing with everything that was unfolding with the pandemic.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:30]: Now, as you look back at your graduate education and you think about other individuals, other people that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those students that might help them to find success sooner?

Caroline Rathbun [00:11:45]: I think it starts while you're in your undergrad. If that's something you are remotely considering, really trying to take that time to understand yourself. Understand your study methods, your learning mess methods, your research methods, because that's really what will set you up for success once you move to graduate school. And also understanding, you know, I have a different learning style than most people. I am a very visual learner, and I knew that if I was to go into a program where it was gonna be a lot of memorizing text and repeating literature and things like that, I would I probably wouldn't find the same excess success. I I succeeded more based on project work rather than research and testing. So I think understanding, you know, where you are as a person with your academic journey and just, you know, what those goals are too, and what your life may look like once you enter into grad school. Because a lot of times when you're entering into grad school, you're working full time, you might be starting a family, getting married, moving across the country.

Caroline Rathbun [00:12:40]: You know, there's so many different things that can happen during that time. So just trying to look into it and plan out those next few years as best you can so that there aren't a lot of unexpected surprises that can derail your journey and get you through to the finish line because that's the ultimate goal is to, you know, be able to walk across that stage and get that diploma.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:58]: Well, Caroline, I just wanna say thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing what you had to go through and and how it's impacted you in in what you're doing on a regular basis. And I truly wish you all the best.

Caroline Rathbun [00:13:10]: Thank you. And I'm I'm really happy to be here and happy to be back working for the university. Or if there's any students listening to that, just do what you can to get involved. My time here was some of the best years and most transformative years of my life. So it's truly an opportunity to get involved with this campus, with this community, and find yourself, find your place, and that's really will help you successful in your journey beyond your undergraduate, whether it's just a career or if you're looking to get into grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Transitioning from one career path to another is never simple, but for some, it can lead to opportunities that were never originally envisioned. Dan Command, also known as Dan C. Bearded, a middle school teacher turned YouTube content creator and keynote speaker, personifies the winding journey of career transformation aided by graduate education. This blog post dives deep into the enriching conversation between Dr. Christopher Lewis and Dan C. Bearded, exploring the roles of education, passion, and unexpected avenues in finding success.

The Initial Leap: Choosing Graduate School From Classroom to Administration

Dan started his educational journey by earning an undergraduate degree at the University of Michigan Flint. He began his career as a middle school teacher and quickly became known for his effectiveness, which led to several leadership roles within his school. His exemplary performance prompted his administration to encourage him to pursue a path in school administration, including becoming a principal.

Deciding on a Program

Catering to his full-time teaching schedule and family life, Dan chose a master's program at the University of Phoenix due to its flexible, hybrid model. This allowed him to pair online coursework with one-on-one mentorship within his community. The arrangement was a perfect fit for his hectic lifestyle, encompassing work, coaching, and family responsibilities.

Navigating Graduate School: Tips for Success Making the Transition

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school required Dan to adjust several aspects of his life. For Dan, this meant honing his organizational skills and becoming relentless about meeting deadlines. The independence and focus required in graduate school were a stark contrast from his undergraduate experience, which involved much collaboration with a core group of friends. He stresses that the key to his success was his commitment to his goals and his ability to remain disciplined despite his packed schedule.

Choosing the Right Specialization

Dan's first master's degree focused on administration. However, upon completing his coursework and observing the day-to-day realities of administrative roles through shadowing, he realized that it was not where his true passion lay. Instead, he pursued a second master's degree in curriculum development, aligning more closely with his interest in educational engagement and helping teachers better reach students.

Embracing Unforeseen Opportunities The Birth of a YouTube Channel

Dan’s commitment to education and his knack for engaging with people led him to start a YouTube channel centered around an entirely unrelated topic: beard care. This alternate pathway began to gain traction, eventually leading him to take a hard look at his professional options. Recognizing the rising success of his YouTube channel, Dan faced a critical decision whether to continue in his traditional career path or fully embrace this unique opportunity.

Leveraging Educational Skills in a New Domain

Surprisingly, Dan found that the skills he developed during his graduate education were incredibly transferable to his new line of work. His curriculum development master's degree proved invaluable as he created unique content about beard care techniques, which later became pivotal when training barbers at expos. The organizational and administrative skills he gained helped him manage the logistics and inevitable challenges that came with a growing online presence and business venture.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students Prioritize Passion

Dan strongly believes that education is never wasted. He advises prospective students to find their passion and choose programs that align with their natural strengths. According to Dan, "Following passion fuels success," and he encourages others to be open to unexpected turns that their paths may take.

Flexibility and Adaptation

Choosing the right program that fits individual schedules and learning styles is crucial. For Dan, this meant selecting a hybrid program that allowed him to balance his multiple responsibilities. He emphasizes that being adaptable and having a focused, relentless approach toward meeting educational goals played a vital role in his journey.

The Value of Education

In Dan’s words, nobody regrets their education. Whether you stick to your initial career path or pivot to a completely new direction, the skills and knowledge gained through graduate education are irreplaceable assets that support lifelong success.

Conclusion: The Ever-Lasting Impact of Education Dan C. Bearded’s story illuminates the life-changing power of education, even when it paves the way to unexpected destinations. Graduate school equipped Dan with the skills and credentials that have helped him thrive in various avenues, from middle school classrooms to barbershop expos. His journey demonstrates that no matter where life takes you, a solid educational foundation provides invaluable tools for navigating the complexities of any career.

So whether you’re contemplating graduate school for career advancement or personal growth, know that the investment in education will forever be a stepping stone towards achieving your greatest potential.

TRANSCRIPT

Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Louis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. And I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, we are on a journey together. And I say journey because it is a journey that you're on. Every person that's thinking about graduate school, going through graduate school, getting ready to be done with graduate school, no matter what it is, you're going on a journey. There's a journey and a goal and a vision that you've set for yourself as you move forward, and you're looking to be able to move in a certain direction. Now sometimes that direction goes in a straight path.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: Sometimes it's a little circuitous, but you never know. But this podcast is all about helping you find success in that journey. And how do we do it? Well, if this is your first show, we do it through conversations, conversations between you and I, but all but even better, conversations with others that have gone to graduate school to help you to find success in your own journey. So as we walk into every episode, I give you an opportunity to meet somebody new, somebody that's gone to graduate school, has learned many things along the way, and are sharing those learnings with you. So I encourage you to get out your pen and paper, get ready to gain some insights that can help you in this journey because we've got another great guest today. Dan Kaman, otherwise known as Dan C. Bearded, is with us today. And Dan did his own graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: He went off, did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went on from there to go and become a teacher. And then at some at one point, he made a decision. He was Dan went, got a graduate degree. I'm really excited to have Dan on the show to share his journey with you. Dan, thanks so much for being here today.

Dan C. Bearded [00:01:59]: Absolutely. It's an honor. Thank you for the invite. That was a a really cool email to receive, to be honest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:04]: Well, we got introduced because you were just named one of the Flint and Genesee groups 40 under 40. Congratulations.

Dan C. Bearded [00:02:12]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:13]: Really excited to be able to talk to you about your journey. And and one of the things that I love being able to do is turning the clock back. I wanna turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work here at the University of Michigan Flint. And going through that undergraduate degree, you decided to become a teacher, ended up going off, becoming a middle school teacher, working with kids and teaching them history. And at some point in that journey that you went on as a teacher, you made a decision to continue your education. Bring me back to that point and talk to me about what was going through your head. What made you decide you wanted to continue and get that graduate degree?

Dan C. Bearded [00:02:49]: Yeah. And it actually was never a plan or or a goal of mine. I thought I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a coach, and that was kind of the end of it. And so I started teaching, got a job right outside of graduating, and it was at the school that I had went to, and it was the dream. It was going really well. And in education, you find out when you do very well, they want to kinda move you up in the in the ladder, up in the system. And so pretty early on, I was, like, named a team leader, then I was the tech chair for our school and all this stuff.

Dan C. Bearded [00:03:20]: And then, eventually, the administration kind of was like, hey. We would really like you to pursue a path in administration. We think you'd be great at it. And I was like, okay. Awesome. You know, more money, more influence in this umbrella to help as many people as possible. So I decided originally that I was gonna go to be a teacher leadership is the name of it, but essentially for administration. And so I wanted to to be a principal.

Dan C. Bearded [00:03:43]: I was teaching full time. I was coaching full time and had a young family at the time. So I had to find something that was gonna be possible and work for me. And that was pretty much the start of it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:53]: So every person goes through a little bit of a their own journey as they're figuring that out and they're saying, okay, yeah, I wanna do this graduate degree, but there's a lot of different options. There's a lot of options out there, a lot of different schools that teach in different ways. And talk to me about what you went through when you were whittling down that list for yourself, when you were looking and saying, you know what? Here's the schools that I'm considering. This is what I'm looking for in the schools. And and what brought you to that final decision of attending the University of Phoenix?

Dan C. Bearded [00:04:25]: Yeah. Great question. And and that was something that was very important to me because, to be honest, I didn't think it was possible with teaching full time, with being a coach, and I was coaching all year round. Pretty much every single day of the year, I was doing private lessons. I was tutoring. I mean, I had a really full schedule, but I did like the concept of being able to become a principal. And so I tried to look in every angle I possibly could, and I found out that online was gonna be my best option. But I also found out I wasn't exactly your traditional student.

Dan C. Bearded [00:04:57]: Fun fact that when I interviewed for my first teaching job, I let them know that my first six credits of college at U of M Flint, I failed all six of them. I actually had to take a study skills class to learn how to study because high school came very easy to me. I never really studied, never really tried, did very well. Went to college, assumed it was the same thing, and everybody told me the rules, like, 3 hours of studying for every hour of classwork. And I was like, oh, no way. They they don't know me. Well, they were right. I was entirely wrong, and I wasn't in love with the process of being a student.

Dan C. Bearded [00:05:29]: So I got through college. I did did fine, did did well, but the idea of pursuing that for another 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 years was not a thought that I was gonna entertain. It just was not my thing until I found the University of Phoenix, and I started talking with them. They had a program that was kind of hybrid where I could work online, but also pair with, like, teacher leaders in my area. And so a lot of my classwork was I actually went to another middle school teacher a couple of times a week, and we worked together 1 on 1 for most of my first master's degree. And it paired with online testing and online papers, and and it was just kind of the perfect relationship for my learning style, but also my schedule at the time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:14]: So you made that transition into your master's degree as you started talking about some of the things that you had to do in your master's degree to find success. But talk to me about there is that transition that you go through. And going from undergraduate work where you're being taught in a certain way to going into graduate work, it's a very different style of teaching, learning, and skill set that you need to find success. So talk to me about that transition for yourself. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And What did you have to do throughout your program to maintain that success?

Dan C. Bearded [00:06:50]: Absolutely spot on. The learning was entirely different from my undergrad. My undergrad, it was kind of figuring out what I wanted to do. I originally went, like I said, and failed all 6 classes while I was in a degree that I wasn't interested in. I originally went for, essentially, radiation. I wanted to either be a radiation tech. I I didn't know what I wanted to do, and we had a family friend that owns a large company and said, hey. You get this degree.

Dan C. Bearded [00:07:14]: I'll give you this job. I was like, awesome. And then turned out I didn't really relate to what I was learning. And so I couldn't get attached to it. So I was coaching in college and was like, I really enjoy this, but I can't make a career right off of coaching with similar teaching. So then I went into that. That was very nice. The biggest difference for me with the transition is in my undergrad, I kind of had a core group of friends and colleagues and classmates, and we all kind of got through it together.

Dan C. Bearded [00:07:40]: We went through the classes. We talked about the professors. We talked about what credits we needed. We kind of had each other that we traveled with. And then transitioning into graduate school, for me at least, it was very individual. I didn't have that same kind of core. I didn't have that same kind of group. So my key to success was shifting my organization and being relentless with not having options.

Dan C. Bearded [00:08:04]: If I had something that was due, if I had a project that I needed, if I had a meeting, it wasn't the case of how do I get this done, when do I get this done. It's I will get this done by that time no matter what. And my biggest transition again was just that being an individual rather than having kind of an undergrad, a very clear path. Hey. This is what you're gonna do. This is what's going forward. I was almost more driving myself and leading, but also was with something that was very particular to the skills that I was wanting to pursue and what I was wanting to learn about. So if I had to look at, like, my engagement level, my master's, both things.

Dan C. Bearded [00:08:41]: I I went for a second master's degree was very detailed and very engaging because it was only about the exact things that I wanted to use those degrees for, and I loved that a lot. It it suited me so well even and I had a great undergrad experience, but the concept of my masters suited me even more so.

Dan C. Bearded [00:09:00]: So talk to me about the second masters now because I know that you got the one masters, and some people say that's enough. Don't wanna go any further than that. Don't wanna get a doctorate. Don't wanna get another master's. I just wanna be done and keep moving with my career. You decided after finishing 1, a little bit after to get a second master's degree. Talk to me about what was going through your head at that point. And what made you decide that you wanted to continue your education to be able to move forward?

Dan C. Bearded [00:09:30]: Yeah. So kind of a 3 part storm that came together perfectly. One was I was working. I had a young family. On a teacher salary, kinda two sides to it, my first 5 years of teaching, we were on a pay freeze. So I was at the bottom step of the teaching salary. The only way I could earn more money within that job for my family was to not move up on the scale, but to move over with the education. So to be entirely honest, I saw that if I pursued more education, I would have more income.

Dan C. Bearded [00:10:00]: So I did that. Another thing, this is not something I advise now looking back on it, but also I had student loans. And as long as I was a student, I could defer those student loans and not pay them. Now as a young twenties man that was trying to survive and get by on not the greatest salary in the world, that was enticing to me. But the real reason, the main reason I decided to pursue a second master's degree is at the end of my first master's degree where I wanted to be in administration, essentially a principal, I found out that that job and career did not suit my my strengths and my personality well. I think I would have done the job very well, but I believe my quality of life would not have been where I wanted it to be, and that was achieved by shadowing. Did all the classwork, did all the projects, all the studying. Once I actually got towards the end of it and it required hours to shadow different principals and different administrators, I realized what I loved about teaching, much of that was taken away on the administration side, and the things that I disliked about teaching were highlighted.

Dan C. Bearded [00:11:03]: Now the skills I learned, the the actual trait of having that master's to my name, unbelievably valuable. I do not regret one second of it. But I knew I wanted to continue for the reasons I mentioned earlier. But I also knew I loved education. And my biggest focus was how can I have the greatest umbrella of influence over education? How can I help as many people as possible? So I then went into curriculum development. And I really liked the concept of when I taught, I did project based learning. I looked through the lens of engagement because I wasn't a great student myself. And I encountered a lot of teachers that were all a students, that were in love with learning, and oftentimes, they would miss the students that were not loving learning.

Dan C. Bearded [00:11:45]: They would miss those students, and they would chalk it up to bad behavior. They'd chuck up these things and I would, like, kinda wipe my arms around and say, hey. That was me. I wasn't that engaged student. Think about teaching through this lens. And I really loved that concept of at least being able to give a little bit of perspective. And so I pursued the the curriculum development degree and absolutely loved it. And that would be my career right now if my YouTube channel and the other side of my life didn't start taking off at the exact same time to the point where I had some of the hardest decisions of my entire life, to the point where I'm not even a person that stresses.

Dan C. Bearded [00:12:20]: And my wife, she handles all that for us, but I I love being kind of low key and mellow. I ended up going to a dermatologist at the end of my master's degree, my second one, because I had job offers. While my YouTube channel was taking off, I had this rash that broke out all over my leg, and I've never had that before. I went in. It was a stress rash. My body was not used to this level of stress, and making the decision to take a job and a contract with my master's degree or take this shot on this other side of life that has no blueprint. It became a very tough decision, but I absolutely loved especially my second master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:55]: So let's talk about that transition because like I said at the very beginning, you have times in your life where the path may be very straight, and then there may be some where it's circuitous. And you completed your degrees. As you said, you had job offers on the table. You had opportunities, but you also had been doing some other things. So talk to me about how these graduate degrees, how the courses, the education, the knowledge that you attained in these, As you look now at the work that you're doing through Dancy Bearded and your YouTube channel, how are you utilizing that education in the work that you do every day?

Dan C. Bearded [00:13:36]: It seems like the most unrelated possible fields. I do YouTube for beard care. I help people trim their beards, style their beard. You would be shocked at how much it overlaps and even at times as a direct carbon copy. So for example, 2 weekends ago, I was flown out to San Antonio, Texas, and I was there for 4 days. I was the keynote speaker at the 2nd largest Barber and Beauty Expo in the world, only to be topped by the one in Orlando, which I also went to. And taken out there, I teach a class to barbers. This time, it was 40,000 different barbers.

Dan C. Bearded [00:14:09]: And I teach a class called the science of beards. And, essentially, I teach them for an hour, and then I have questions afterwards and content and all this stuff. But I teach them about how head hair is different than facial hair down to the sebaceous glands and the thickness and coarseness and all these different things. I am entirely creating curriculum that is missing from barber school. In barber school, they do not spend any time on facial hair, and it is all about the head hair. But anybody that goes to a barber assumes they're an expert with beards and facial hair because that's what they do. And barbers, the only ones that are successful at that are the ones that pursue the knowledge on their own outside of their own schooling. So I have taken the curriculum development masters and have actually made curriculum that never existed before just in an entirely different world.

Dan C. Bearded [00:14:54]: And then on the other side, the administration side for the master's degree, so much of that is how do you handle parents? How do you handle delicate situations? How do you handle confidential information? Well, on the YouTube channel, I get this is crazy. Right? Wild thought, but I get mean comments online. You know, the Internet is going to have something sassy to say, especially a guy that is grooming himself and taking care of himself with pride. You can imagine the comments that come with that. Was an administrator and especially as being a middle school teacher for 12 years, I lived in that world. I I understood what it was like to receive a emotional oftentimes, a hateful oftentimes comment, and be able to not only handle it, but take pride in turning it and getting them on my side and bringing that as a part of this community and what I've built over here. These skills that I've learned from both of those master degrees are imperative to the success that I've had, and I would be nowhere near where I'm at right now without those.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: Now this show is all about graduate school success. You've shared a lot of different things in the journey that you went on. As you think about other individuals, other people that are thinking about graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to others considering graduate education that might help them find success sooner?

Dan C. Bearded [00:16:06]: Great question. I like to talk to people. I love conversations like this. I love listening to podcasts. I don't know if I've ever heard someone regret their education. I don't know if I've ever heard someone say, I went I went too far. I got too many degrees. It's something that is always gonna be transferable.

Dan C. Bearded [00:16:22]: It's something that they will never be able to take away from you in a world that is oftentimes trying to minimize or take things away. And to find that success, especially for the graduate program, it's finding that skill set that you love that makes the most out of your strengths and then applying it to the program that's gonna fit you the best. I truly believe if you follow passion, success will follow. And a graduate program is an unbelievable kind of aid or, like, almost like a cheat code to that success when you fuel it with passion. So my biggest advice would be genuinely speaking. Find your passion. Find the program that's gonna fit to your schedule and your life and learning style the most, and then go full force on it. Absolutely go after it, and you'd be shocked at where the path can go, like you said, that you don't even see.

Dan C. Bearded [00:17:11]: You have no concept. You might have an idea in mind of this is where I wanna go. Be open to those changes, but understand that the education will always be there to help you along that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:21]: Well, Dan, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, and I wish you all the best.

Dan C. Bearded [00:17:26]: Thank you so much for having me. This is absolutely amazing and hope to be back in the future. I could talk about this stuff all day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:32]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, we delve deep into the world of graduate education with Phillip Thompson, a seasoned community relations manager at the University of Michigan Flint. As a staunch advocate for higher education, Phillip’s journey is both inspiring and enlightening. In this blog post, we'll expand on their conversation, reflecting on key takeaways and offering deeper insights into the graduate school experience.

Choosing the Right Path: Phillip’s Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Phillip Thompson's trajectory toward graduate school wasn't immediately clear-cut. After earning an undergraduate degree in Economics from the University of Michigan Flint, Phillip explored various educational avenues. He considered law school, an MBA, and even dabbled in public administration courses. However, it was his passion for words and literature that ultimately led him to pursue a Master's in Liberal Studies.

Phillip’s story underscores an essential point for prospective graduate students: the journey to selecting a graduate program is deeply personal and often non-linear. Choosing a field that genuinely interests you can be the difference between a fulfilling academic experience and one that feels like a chore.

Transitioning into Graduate School: Success Strategies

Transitioning into graduate school comes with its unique set of challenges, and Phillip's experience was no different. During his conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, Phillip emphasized the importance of self-reliance and adaptability. Unlike undergraduate education, where group projects and general education requirements are common, graduate education demands a higher degree of specialization and individual accountability.

Phillip found that the structure of the Liberal Studies program, which required extensive reading and writing, suited his intellectual curiosities and work habits better than the group-centric MBA coursework. This individual-focused approach allowed him to delve deeper into subjects he was passionate about, demonstrating that finding your preferred learning style is crucial for graduate school success.

The First-Generation Student Experience: Overcoming Challenges

Being a first-generation college student, Phillip faced additional hurdles in navigating higher education. Without a familial roadmap, understanding the intricacies of academic administration, financial aid, and other bureaucratic hurdles fell entirely on his shoulders. Yet, his journey through graduate school was markedly smoother. Because he could focus on subjects that fascinated him, like literature, government, and history, the coursework felt less like an obligation and more like an opportunity.

Phillip’s experience as a first-generation student highlights the importance of resourcefulness and self-advocacy. Building a support network of advisors, mentors, and like-minded peers can significantly ease this journey.

The Real-World Application: Graduate Education and Professional Success

Dr. Christopher Lewis explored how Phillip's graduate degree in Liberal Studies prepared him for his role as a community relations manager. Phillip explained that his broad academic training allowed him to approach problems from multiple perspectives, which is invaluable in community relations. Graduate education often equips students with more than just subject matter expertise; it provides critical thinking skills, exposure to diverse viewpoints, and the ability to engage with complex issues holistically.

Phillip's role at the University of Michigan Flint requires him to interact with a wide range of people and address various community needs. His graduate education has enabled him to be more adaptive, empathetic, and effective in his professional endeavors.

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students

Towards the end of the podcast, Phillip shared invaluable advice for anyone considering graduate school:

1. Understand the Time Commitment

: Graduate programs require significantly more reading and in-depth study than undergraduate degrees. Be prepared to invest the necessary time. 2. Choose the Right Learning Mode

: Whether it's online, in-person, or a combination of both, find what suits your learning style best. 3. Build Strong Relationships

: Establish a good rapport with your advisors and professors. Their guidance can be instrumental in your success. 4. Develop a Schedule

: Align your coursework with your natural rhythms of energy and enthusiasm to maximize your productivity.

Conclusion

Phillip Thompson’s journey through graduate school is a testament to the transformative power of education. His story is a compelling reminder that finding the right path, while challenging, can lead to both personal and professional fulfillment. Whether you're a prospective graduate student or currently navigating your own graduate journey, these insights and tips can serve as a valuable guide to help you achieve your academic and career goals.

For more information about graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms.

TRANSCRIPT (unedited transcript provided through CASTMAGIC

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, you and I are on a journey together. I love being able to talk about this journey that you're on in either looking at grad school, going through grad school, getting done with grad school, wherever you are in this process. It is a process. It is a journey and it's an exciting one. And one that is so that should be an amazing opportunity, amazing experience for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And part of the reason that this podcast exists is to help you along that journey, to help you find success from the very beginning. So no matter where you are in this continuum, where you are in this journey, this show is here to help you, to give you some tools, some thoughts, some perspectives on what others have done to be able to be successful in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I bring you different people, different people with different experiences that can provide you with the journey that they went on and some of the tidbits, some of the things that they learned along the way that can help you to build some tools for your own toolbox. This week, we got another great guest with us. Philip Thompson is with us today, and Philip is a community relations manager at the University of Michigan Flint. And Philip did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint and then did a graduate degree degree with the University of Michigan Flint as well. So we're gonna be talking about his journey in going through that process for himself and get to know him a little bit better. Philip, thanks so much for being here today.

Phillip Thompson [00:01:49]: Thank you for the invitation. I appreciate it. I'm honored that you would ask me to be on today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: Well, it's my pleasure having you here. And I wanna go back in time because I know that every per every people, every person has a different reason for going to graduate school. And as I said, you did your undergraduate work in economics at the University of Michigan Flint. You could have gone on and got a graduate degree in economics, you could have gotten an MBA, you could have done a lot of different things. But at some point during that journey, whether it was right in undergrad or after a few years of working, you made a decision to go back to graduate school. Talk to me about that, and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Phillip Thompson [00:02:29]: Yeah. So after my undergrad, it was a couple of years of working, and, of course, interesting story of mine is that of my mother's 3 children, I'm the only one that graduated from college. And so I kinda made her a promise that then if I were to complete my undergrad degree, I would eventually go back and get my master's. And, of course, she wanted me to go on and get my doctorate as well, but and I kinda semi promised that. But with that being said, I I I did promise to get the the master's degree. And so it was in part the fulfillment of a promise that I made to my mom to do it. And then, of course, I wanted it for myself as well. And that was kind of the motivating factors for me to go back and get my graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:14]: Now I've already said the fact that you got your bachelor's in economics. So there were other options that from what you chose and I'll get to that in one second. But you made the decision that you wanted to study liberal studies and you did that at the University of Michigan Flint. You could have done a master's in economics, you could have done an MBA, you could have done a lot of different things. Talk to me about that thought process of choosing a master in liberal studies degree versus something else. And what made you decide to study that area and especially study it at the University of Michigan Flint?

Phillip Thompson [00:03:52]: Of course, when I got with my undergraduate degree, economics, a lot of my advisor was saying, hey, go to law school. This is the natural progression. There's a lot of people who when they get their their econ degree, they go straight to law school. That's probably the number one feeder program in the law schools is the econ program. And so they're saying, go get your law degree. You've got all the skills you need to do it. And I thought about it. I thought very seriously about it because there was a friend of mine who was about 10 years older than me, and he was getting his going through law school and just taking one class at a time.

Phillip Thompson [00:04:24]: And he was very successful at what he was doing. He'd already had 2 master's degrees, and he was like, yeah, go to law school, you can do it. I had a cousin who's a couple years older than me, who was also going through law school. So I thought about that track, thought about the MBA as well. And I took about 9 credit hours in the MBA program and paused on that. I took some credit hours of masters in public administration, pause on that too. And then I started looking very seriously at the Liberal Studies program, and found it extremely fascinating, in part, because I love words. I'm a wordsmith.

Phillip Thompson [00:04:57]: I just love words. And so the literature itself became really the driving force for me to do the Liberal Studies program because I love to read and I love words. I was like, this is more germane for me. It felt the most natural and organic for me to go through the liberal studies program, and and I couldn't have been more happy. I mean, I got some trans professors that I still keep up with and really, really found it really, really exciting and fulfilling on every account.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: Now you just mentioned that you took some classes in the MBA. You took some classes in the masters of public administration, and you landed in liberal studies. Graduate coursework in the MBA is different than the MPA is different than the liberal studies. You're taught in different ways. The expectations are a little bit different, and in each of those, there are transitions that you have to go through, transitions in learning, transitions in expectations, be and and other aspects as well. So talk to me about transitions, and what did you have to do as you were transitioning into any of those individual classes, into the eventual masters in liberal studies to be able to, one, set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Phillip Thompson [00:06:13]: So the thing I discovered very quickly in the MBA program is that it's a lot of group work. And some people love group work, some people not so much. I'm in that latter group. I love groups, but I don't necessarily like group work. I tend to land on the merits of individual accomplishment. I'm better if I know that it's all on me. If I don't get it done, it's it's because I didn't get it done. In a group setting though, you have to rely on other people.

Phillip Thompson [00:06:40]: And there's nothing wrong with that. It just seemed that, again, it was easier for me to rely on myself. And that's what I liked about the Liberal Studies program. It was easy to transition to that because all of the reading was on me, all of the writing was on me versus in the MBA program. If you're doing an accounting class or you're doing a business project and you're trying to figure out how you can maximize profits, it's 2 or 3 other people that you have to cooperate with. And sometimes that's good and sometimes not so much. But the liberal studies program, again, because of the words and because of this individual accountability that I placed upon myself. It just seemed to be so much more easier for me to excel at that program.

Phillip Thompson [00:07:24]: The the master's of public administration was similar to liberal studies, but the material, I just didn't find it as fascinating as I did. The literature that I was reading in in liberal studies, very, very good stuff, but liberal studies just seemed to just open my mind up in all of these fascinating ways, you know, to talk about the history of America, the history of religion, the history of government, all of the things that just seem to just converge and they all just fascinated me. And so it was easy for me to, again, assimilate into that material, into that class work because I just found it so engaging.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:02]: Now you also mentioned that you were a 1st generation college student as an undergraduate student, a 1st generation college student as a graduate student as well. And with that comes its own challenges in understanding and being able to have the support to be able to get through those different experiences. As a 1st generation college student, as a graduate student, what were some of the challenges that you ran up against that you felt like you had to overcome?

Phillip Thompson [00:08:31]: Well, I'm gonna tell you, I found graduate school to be much easier than undergraduate school. And I've talked to a lot of people who say the same thing, undergraduate, you've gotta take a lot of courses that you don't necessarily wanna take, but it's required of you. And then of course, being a first generation college student, I didn't know how to navigate through the system well, because I didn't have a precedence. Nobody could say, hey, you know, this is what you do. This is how you talk to your counselors. This is how you handle all of these things, financial aid. It was all on me to kinda figure it out. And, honestly, there were some semesters where I struggled in undergraduate.

Phillip Thompson [00:09:07]: But in graduate school, because I'm taking only the classes I want to take, only the classes that really interest me, and the classes, of course. There's some core curriculum, of course, but after the core curriculum, I mean, you get to choose your own path in graduate school, and that's what I found to be much easier than undergraduate. So I think the hardest thing about graduate school is the thesis. I struggled, and, you know, because it's that whole overanalyzing perfectionism mindset that you you bring to that experience. And, of course, writer's block, all of it, you name it. But overall, the class work was much more easier than undergrad, because you get to choose what path you want to take.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:54]: You definitely do get to do that. And that's one of the things that I always tell students is that the nice thing about grad school is that you're not going to have all of those other gen ed requirements that you're going to be having to be forced to take as an undergraduate student that you can focus in on the things that you're most passionate about and and most interested in, and you can then jump in from there. Now seeing that you did a graduate degree in the master's in liberal studies, And you are, as I said, at the very beginning, a community, a community relations manager in the Flint area, working for the University of Michigan Flint, as you look back at the graduate degree, what you learned in that process. How do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for what you're doing on a daily basis?

Phillip Thompson [00:10:44]: There's no question. In a graduate program, while you're focusing on your passions, as you said so eloquently, you're also, you know, dealing with this whole broad spectrum of information that you have to be open to new ideas, new experiences, new people. And so I think the biggest thing that the the graduate program did is expose me to some areas in life and some thought processes that I had never given consideration to. And I think that is the biggest thing about it. You come you you leave away from grad school realizing that we come to the school or graduate school with some narrow parameters, but we leave out, you know, having broadened our scope of knowledge and our experiences. So I think the biggest thing is, again, you leave away with an appreciation for multiple perspectives on any thought and on any idea. Right? Because you have to develop an appreciation for those who agree and for those who disagree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:49]: Definitely. And I love that because I think that for one of the things that any graduate degree should be able to allow for you to do is to broaden your own perspective, to understand not only yourself better, but to understand others better. And it can open you up to being able to then relate to others better and the work that you're doing. So, so I appreciate you sharing that. Now, as you think about your own graduate experience, the journey that you went on, what you learned along the way, and you think about students that are going through their own journey, that are thinking about going to graduate school, whether it be for a master's in liberal studies or something completely different. What are some tips that you might offer to those students considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner? Yeah.

Phillip Thompson [00:12:36]: I think the one thing that any person considering graduate school, should deeply consider is the time commitment. There's going to be far more reading in graduate school than there was in undergraduate school. It's just no other way around it because you're a subject matter expert, so to speak, when you leave that program. So in order to become that, there is a serious amount of reading that's required. So I think it's just the the time commitment that you have to give to the program. And, of course, there's a minimum threshold in graduate school. Undergrad, you can get a c and pass the class. That's not the case in graduate school.

Phillip Thompson [00:13:14]: It's a b or better. Right? There's there's no other way around. It's like you can't really half step in graduate school. So I think three things that I would say for those who are considering going back to graduate school is consider the time commitment that you have to give to reading. Number 2 is create a schedule that is most organic for you, your natural flows of energy and enthusiasm. So if you're taking a multimodal approach, if you got some online, if you got some in person, or if you've gone all in person, consider whether or not that works for you. Because some people do well in person, but don't do well online. So I would say, again, consider the time commitment, con consider the mode of your learning, which works best, which is most organic for you.

Phillip Thompson [00:14:06]: And then number 3, I would say develop a very close relationship with the advisor for the graduate program or the professors in the program, and let them know what your desire is. And that will be the very basic approach that any graduate student should take in terms of success. I think if you do those three things and you stay on top of it, there's no reason why you shouldn't be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:29]: Well, Philip, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing your thoughts on success and how you got there, and what others can do to do the same, and I wish you all the best.

Phillip Thompson [00:14:41]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:42]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School, we sit down with Zach Scott, a graduate student at Oakland University studying Clinical Counseling. Zach’s educational and career journey offers a compelling story of transformation and introspection, making this episode a must-listen for anyone contemplating the value of following their passions, even if that means pivoting away from a well-established career path.

From Computer Science to Counseling: A New Direction

Zach Scott's journey is a prime example of how one's path toward fulfillment can often be winding and unexpected. After earning a bachelor’s degree in both English and Computer Science from the University of Michigan Flint, Zach entered the world of web development and computer science, where he spent several years. Despite the creative and intellectually stimulating nature of computer science, Zach found himself increasingly dissatisfied.

"I wasn’t as enthused about it as I had been before," Zach reveals. It wasn’t just the isolated, anti-social nature of coding that contributed to his growing disillusionment; it was the deeper realization that he craved more meaningful interactions with people. The turning point came during the pandemic, when Zach engaged in frequent, deep conversations about job fulfillment and well-being with his colleagues. This experience illuminated his true call: to help others in a more direct and profound way through counseling.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program

Pivoting towards a completely new career is a monumental decision, one that demands thorough consideration and research. For Zach, the tipping point was a recommendation from his own therapist, who graduated from Oakland University. Unlike those who meticulously compare programs, Zach confesses he relied largely on his gut feeling. A significant factor was the philosophical approach to counseling that the faculty at Oakland University employs, catalyzing his decision to apply there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis, the podcast host, emphasized the breadth of graduate programs available today, ranging from in-person to hybrid and fully online modalities. Zach opted for an in-person program to foster genuine connections with his peers and professors, something he feels is crucial for his own learning style and well-being.

Transitioning Smoothly: Setting Yourself Up for Success

Transitioning back into academia after a hiatus can be daunting, but Zach shares practical tips that smoothed his journey. One of his key strategies was starting slow: "My first semester, I only took one class," Zach explains. This allowed him to immerse himself fully in the course material without feeling overwhelmed, essentially easing him back into the rhythms of academic life.

For those looking to emulate Zach’s success, he suggests embracing a slower pace, engaging deeply with the material, and finding a personal connection to your field of study. Instead of treating the curriculum as a mere list of requirements, see it as an opportunity to delve into subjects that truly ignite your passion.

Leveraging Past Experiences

Zach’s diverse academic and professional background has proven to be an invaluable asset in his new field. His English degree, centered around literary analysis, has refined his ability to discern deeper meanings and symbolic narratives in his counseling sessions. Zach’s computer science expertise equips him with strong problem-solving skills, enabling him to identify patterns and root causes, a crucial skill in psychotherapy.

Building Connections: The Importance of Networking

One of the standout pieces of advice Zach offers revolves around the necessity of building genuine relationships during your graduate studies. "Be friendly," Zach urges. Whether it’s classmates or professors, forming meaningful connections can profoundly enrich your academic experience. The friendships and professional networks you build can offer support, provide opportunities, and even lead to job prospects.

Embracing Your Unique Path

As Zach reflects on his past and looks to the future, he underscores the importance of trusting your own intuition and following your unique path. "It's okay to change your mind," he says, reassuring listeners that fluctuating between interests and making career pivots isn't a sign of failure, but a hallmark of personal growth.

In closing, Zach’s journey from computer science to clinical counseling serves as a compelling reminder that graduate school isn’t just an academic endeavor but a deeply personal journey. By following one’s passions and remaining open to change, students can transform both their careers and their lives.

For those pondering a return to academia, Zach Scott’s story encourages you to examine your passions closely and take the leap—your true calling may be just around the corner.

TRANSCRIPT (unedited transcript made with help of CASTMAGIC)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are going through this graduate school journey that you're on. You might be just at the beginning where you're just starting to think about putting that application in. You might be actually accepted and ready to get going. You could be in grad school and seeing that light at the end of the tunnel. No matter where you are, you are on a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: There are things that you can do to be able to be successful in the journey that you're on. Things that you can start right now. And every week I love being able to bring you different people, different people with different experiences that have gone through graduate school or are in graduate school. And they've had experiences that can help you to be able to better understand the experience that you're gonna be stepping in no matter what that journey may be. This week we've got another great guest. Zach Scott is with us. And Zach did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. He did a bachelor's degree in both English and computer science, and is now in a graduate program at Oakland University studying clinical counseling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:28]: We're We're gonna talk about the journey that he has been on. And we're going to learn a little bit more about him as well. So I'm really excited to have him here today to be able to share his journey with you. Zach, thanks so much for being here today.

Zach Scott [00:01:40]: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: I am really excited to have you here. And one of the things that I love doing as we start these conversations is really turn the clock back because I know that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And then after getting that bachelor's degree in English and computer science, you went out. You went out and you started a career. You started a career doing work in different types of work in computer science. And at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to change paths. You wanted to pivot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:18]: You wanted to move in a different direction, and you wanted to continue your education. Tell me about that point. And what made you decide that it was time to go to graduate school, and what made you decide that you wanted to completely change directions?

Zach Scott [00:02:31]: After I finished my undergrad, I went and just got a bunch of jobs in computer science. I worked with mainframes, and I did a lot of web development. I've mostly been a web developer, and that work can be really creative and it can be really interesting work. But after a while, I just sort of noticed that I wasn't as enthused about it as I had been before. I think part of it was learning. When you start your career, you don't exactly know what in a career is fulfilling to you because you haven't had a lot of opportunities to try things, see what works, what doesn't. So you're kind of assuming, well, I'm gonna like this I think. I've liked everything I've studied, and you sort of plunge into it.

Zach Scott [00:03:08]: And, again there's a lot of things I like about computer science, but something I started to notice was I wasn't really getting a chance to talk with people very much. I like interacting with people, and in programming it can be really antisocial. And when the, pandemic hit, everyone was just working from home. So I noticed I was spending a lot of time at work having meetings with people and saying, you know, is this job fulfilling to you? Like, how can we have, like, a more enjoyable atmosphere? And I was having a lot of conversations with people, and I started doing that more than writing code and working on technical problems. And as I was approaching my 30th birthday, I really did not feel very good. I was really I felt really, like, a bit aimless and a bit I just didn't think my work was really, energizing me. And I was listening to a talk by a a guy named James Hollis. He's a psychotherapist that I really respect.

Zach Scott [00:04:02]: And he was sort of talking about the midlife crisis feeling and finding what you're called to do. And the way he framed it, I was like, yeah. I really need to, like, sit and consider this question. Like, it's not just going I'm not just going to fall into the thing that's meaningful for me. I have to reflect on it. And so I started reading into psychotherapy a lot because I've benefited from psychotherapy in a lot of really deep ways. And I just sort of had an epiphany. I was like, oh my god.

Zach Scott [00:04:27]: I could do this. Like, there's I spend most of my days talking to friends and family members about life and and mental issues that we face and these types of things, and that's my favorite place to be. That's my favorite kind of conversation to have right now. So I was like, yeah. I can go back to school. I always have enjoyed studying. I study all the time just for fun. I like to read a lot.

Zach Scott [00:04:50]: So it just sort of clicked for me. And I talked to my therapist. He told me that he went to Oakland, and so I applied for the program there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:58]: Well, you kind of answered my next question, which was there's lots of programs that are out there, and you could have applied for clinical counseling in a lot of different places, and you chose Oakland University. And it sounds like you were pushed to that through a recommendation from your own therapist and wanting to move into that. But were were there any other factors, any other things that you were looking for in a graduate school, and what you were trying to get out of that program that made you decide that Oakland was the right fit?

Zach Scott [00:05:28]: Other people are gonna be completely different here. And this is going against conventional wisdom, but I don't shop around very much, honestly. I don't. I just don't. It stresses me out when I have a bunch of choices to pick from. I usually go with my gut, and I go with, like, I like the symbolic choice. So for me, it was like my personal therapist went here, and he was telling me all about faculty there. And some of the professors he told me about, I really liked what I was hearing, and I liked that they had a philosophical approach to counseling.

Zach Scott [00:05:59]: And so I thought, okay. This is really first of all, it's not that far of a drive because I live in Ferndale right now. So it it I wanted it to be close so that I could visit in person. That was what was really important to me was being able to make it there in person. So I needed some place close, and I liked the idea that my own therapist could vouch for it. And I knew that no matter what other option, I if I shopped around, I wouldn't have, like, a personal connection to that place, and that was important to me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:25]: So as you decided to go back to school, as you transition from going from work and a number of years not being in school, it's definitely a transition as you enter back into, let's say, school mode. So talk to me about that transition and what you had to do to set yourself up for success at the beginning of the experience and what you've had to do throughout this experience to be able to maintain that success, especially as you have transitioned, 1, from being out of school for a while, but 2, transitioning into a program that is very different than English or computer science, and now studying something completely different.

Zach Scott [00:07:08]: Yeah. First of all, this is just very practical, but I think one thing I did was my 1st semester, I only took one class. I took a single class. Everyone I talked to in the program was like, I'm taking 3 classes. I'm gonna take spring summer. I just wanna get this over with. I just wanna get this over with. I think if you're like me and you've been away from school for a while, I really recommend that.

Zach Scott [00:07:29]: Well, I don't understand the rush. You know? Like, if you're just trying to start a career, I understand it's exciting and you wanna get through it, but I think it's a lot easier. You can do a lot better if you take a slow approach and find the rhythm of the program and sort of ease your way into it. So I only took one class, and what was nice about that was I could really give my all to that one class. So I did all the readings. I did all the assignments, like, right away. It was my only priority, and that worked really well for me. And when it comes to making a big switch, something that I think helped me a lot was I dove into the things that I thought were personally very interesting beforehand.

Zach Scott [00:08:06]: I started reading about early psychoanalysis because that really fascinates me. So I was reading a lot of Freud, and I ended up falling in love with the works of Carl Jung. And so I walked in having a personal interest in the program. I followed the things that really energized me that I felt really resonated. And that way, I walked in feeling like, okay, I don't know. I didn't have a psychology undergrad. Everyone else did. Almost everyone in the program has a psychology undergrad.

Zach Scott [00:08:40]: So I didn't have the same background, but I had a a personal connection with the material. And I was able to talk with people and compare their approaches to what I thought was interesting in all of this. And I was able to talk to professors and have really cool conversations about psychoanalysis and these types of things. So just diving into what you think is really interesting, I don't I didn't, you know, I didn't brush up on behaviorism and all of these things that I just I don't really find very interesting. The pro I also say that my program was I asked a question. I said, what should I do? I asked the director, what should I do before I show up? And he said, you don't really have to do we're gonna cover the basics, so don't sweat it too much. So I I didn't. I was like, I'll trust the program.

Zach Scott [00:09:27]: I don't want to burn out, so I didn't dive in to everything.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:30]: Well, now you've been in the program for a little bit of time, and you got past that 1st term. You've been able to find success as you've moved along. And what have you had to do as you've continued in the program to be able to continue that success for yourself?

Zach Scott [00:09:48]: This is something that I didn't really anticipate being so important, but when you get to grad school, everyone in grad school is nervous. Everyone is a little bit afraid to be there, and it's not gonna seem like it. But but I promise that everyone sitting there is really scared because it's a new environment, and they wanna prove that they're capable in all of this. Everyone's excited and nervous, and everyone is sitting there very scared to talk and probably looking at their phones before class because we're all so scared. And and one thing that's been really really crucial is pushing past that or observing that fear a little bit, working with it, and making connections with other students and with professors as people. You know, I guess if I wanna if if I was being a traditional career type person, I would call that networking. But to me, it's it's more than networking. It's like, what you don't wanna do is go to grad school and keep your head down, do the material, do the assignments, get out, and go try to find a job.

Zach Scott [00:10:52]: I mean, you can. That's totally valid. But I think it becomes such a deeper experience if you can make connections with people and just start little conversations, ask people, how did you feel about that assignment? Or I started trying to get people together after class for little activities and just sort of starting a little social circle in my program so that as a cohort, we're all connected. And then you hear things like, oh, well, I've got a job opening where I work, and if you're interested, you know, it opens up the door for all kinds of things. If you're talking to your professors in an earnest way, you're not trying to win their favor or look like a great student or something. Just talking to them as people. Professors really like that, and you can get really good references there and other opportunities. But even beyond that, just go in being earnestly curious about everyone in the program and try to work with that scary voice that says, don't talk to anyone.

Zach Scott [00:11:45]: Just just do a good job. That's been my favorite thing, and I know it's not like a traditional thing that a that a career counselor might tell you about, but be friendly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:54]: Being friendly is definitely important, and especially that becomes even more important if you're well, I'm gonna say if you're in person, you definitely wanna be friendly because you're going to be seeing those people all the time. But even if you're not, you wanna be able to build those relationships. No matter if you're in in an in person program or if you are in a hybrid or a online program. Don't just sit there with your camera off and not getting to know the people. It's very easy to do if you're in an online or hybrid program, but you're going to take a lot more out of it if you're able to find some way to make those connections. And those tangible connections are going to allow you and help you to be able to get through the program and be more successful in the end. So I will be honest and say that the the graduate programs that I have been in for the most part, my master's degree was an in person program. I got to know every person in that program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:57]: My doctorate program was mostly in person as well. So but I know that since COVID, things have changed. And graduate programs, you you'll find a big mix right now.

Zach Scott [00:13:07]: Yeah. And I look specifically for in person offerings because right now at Oakland, both are offered. I would say it's worth the drive if you can do it because there is just an engagement you find by being on campus and and a sort of organic connective aspect that you really just it's harder to do online, it's worth it to go to camp. I mean, it's a long drive kind of for me. It's like 30 minutes to 40 minutes. Like, I don't want to every day, but it really is something special.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:36]: So one of the things that I'm kind of interested about is as you've been going through this clinical counseling program, and you have a very different undergraduate background, a very different work experience and path that you have followed to get to where you are, than even others that are in your cohort that are going through classes with you. How do you find yourself drawing from that academic experience, that work experience that may be very different to allow for you to have a different perspective in the program? How do you pull from that? And what do you find that you pull from on a regular basis versus the new learning that you're going through as well?

Zach Scott [00:14:20]: Yeah. So I gotta say, my English undergrad, I pull so much from my English my English program. The the experiences I had in the English program have really served me well because and I didn't even do this intentionally. It's not like I said to myself, oh, I'm gonna become a counselor because the English background will help a lot. It's just sort of my personal interest in these things led me to this place. I so in counseling, when you're talking to people, most of the skills, it's about listening for meaning. You're trying to hear not just what a person is saying. You know, there's, like, connotation, denotation.

Zach Scott [00:14:55]: So it's very easy to get into the denotative stuff. Well, they said this they they live alone. They have a cat. Blah blah blah. The hard part and the sort of magical part is the connotative part. You're listening for so and this is idiosyncratic. This is what I do. Not every counselor is going to do this, and and all approaches are equally valid, and there's research that that has pretty much shown that.

Zach Scott [00:15:17]: So so I lean in to my own personal approach to these things, partially because the the research shows it's to do so. But I'm listening to a person, and I'm trying to hear for their story. I'm trying to hear what the symbols are in their life, what those symbols mean to them. And often, you'd be surprised you have a short conversation with someone and the amount of meaning you can uncover and the dense symbolism in just small phrases. If you're paying attention, you hear it, and that's literary analysis. Right? That's the nuts and bolts. Okay. Someone was I I do a lot of dream analysis.

Zach Scott [00:15:56]: This is also not something most people do. So this is my own thing, but I like dreams because dreams are essentially short stories. And they're really good short stories, and they tell you a lot about a person's psyche. And I know a lot of people, who have been skeptical of it. And then I just talked to them about their dream for 10 minutes. And they have all these realizations, and it's really cool. Or they say, no. That doesn't make any sense, and they walk away.

Zach Scott [00:16:22]: I'm not acting like it's not a magic cure or anything. But when I talk to people about their dreams, I'm analyzing that as as essentially literature, and I don't think there's any fundamental difference between the 2. So that has been massive. When it comes to computer science, I think what it gives me is the problem solving aspect. So I take in computers computer science is entirely problem solving. That's the whole discipline. I it's it's not even really a science. I mean, if you read a lot of the theories, you know, as the older textbooks say, computer science is not even a science, and it's it's really a discipline.

Zach Scott [00:16:57]: It's a craftsmanship about how to solve problems. And so when someone's talking to you, as a therapist, you have to be able to store massive amounts of information. You have to have a really good memory, and then pull from it, and start to see patterns, start to see how now people aren't problems, so I'm not trying to solve a person as a problem. But what I am trying to do is follow threads, follow different behaviors, and see is there something that seems to be causing this? Is there a trigger for this? It's not that different from working on, computer programs where you're just looking through what's the pattern, why is this issue happening. Mean, the difference is you're working with a human being and a human being is way more profound and interesting than any computer, but it's essentially you get to kind of work those skills in a way that's unique to someone who has a computer science background.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:47]: Now, Zach, you've given a lot of pieces of advice today, things that you've learned along the way as you've walked through this journey for yourself, and you're still on that journey for yourself. As we finish up today, what's one piece of advice you'd want to give to any individual that was looking at going to graduate school that would help them find success

Zach Scott [00:18:09]: sooner? I really want to highlight because this has been so big for me, and I've already touched on it a lot, but trust own souls guidance and find what really makes you feel passionate in a deep way. Trust that you can leap into the whatever the discipline is, find the things that really, really excite you. And if nothing excites you, don't be afraid to change your path completely. Look at me. I've had English, computer science, clinical counseling. I don't know how long I'll be a counselor for. I'm not looking at this as, like, the rest of my life even necessarily. It's okay to change your mind.

Zach Scott [00:18:45]: It's okay to try a bunch of things. There's a lot of societal pressure. You know, you need to get into your career, make money, get a house. Houses are expensive. It's okay to play a little bit. Play around. Read books. I would also say that.

Zach Scott [00:18:58]: Read a lot of books. For someone who reads books, pick up esoteric books, things that you are just sort of curious about, but you would never read and find stuff that your program is not gonna teach you. Buy those books if they seem you just you can just pick a book because the title is cool. It doesn't but, like, find stuff that's that's outside of the discipline and bring it into the discipline. Don't just follow the curriculum because that's the way it's been laid out. In my program, I'm the only person in that I've met in the whole program who cares about union analysis. Right? I could take that and go, oh, I guess I should stop learning about that. But I've kind of done the opposite.

Zach Scott [00:19:33]: I've bought as many of his books as I can find because we need more voices. Grad school should be a forum for people to have serious debates, serious disagreements, and learn from it. So I just think to me that's the thing. Like, lean into your own personality and find that beautiful thing that only you're gonna bring to the program and just, you know, be proud of it and express it. It'll change things for you. You'll learn a lot.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:55]: Well, Zach, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. I wish you all the best as you finish your path and as you continue through the path, working to become the clinical counsel that you wanna become. Thank you for your time today, and I do wish you all the best.

Zach Scott [00:20:11]: Thank you very much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:12]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Expanding Horizons Through Graduate Education Graduate school can be an enriching yet challenging journey that adds immense value to one's personal and professional growth. During a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, host Dr. Christopher Lewis engaged in an insightful conversation with Dr. Laurence Alexander, the Chancellor of the University of Michigan-Flint. Dr. Alexander shared his extensive educational journey, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently navigating graduate studies. Below, we delve into Dr. Alexander's story, the decisions that shaped his path, and the lessons he learned along the way.

Initiating the Graduate Journey Dr. Alexander's academic journey began with an undergraduate degree in Drama and Communications from the University of New Orleans. His early exposure to journalism through the college newspaper spurred his interest in pursuing deeper knowledge and skills in the field. Despite the University of New Orleans not having a specific journalism program, the broader Communication curriculum and experiences on the college newspaper cemented his desire to pursue a specialized graduate program.

Driven by the need to gain more in-depth knowledge in journalism, Dr. Alexander evaluated top programs across the nation, ultimately choosing the University of Florida due to their comprehensive fellowship package and the opportunity to work with Pulitzer Prize-winning editorialist, Dr. Buddy Davis.

Transitioning to Law While pursuing his graduate studies in Journalism and Communications, an enduring interest in law, sparked during his undergraduate years, urged Dr. Alexander towards further education. His fascination with constitutional law and the judicial process fueled his decision to attend law school, aiming for a career covering courts with greater proficiency.

Dr. Alexander's law school journey led him back to New Orleans, where he juggled work and part-time law studies at Loyola University before receiving an offer from Tulane University. At Tulane, he received a partial scholarship and experienced a top-notch education, sharpening his legal acumen.

From Journalism to Higher Education Dr. Alexander’s career took an interesting turn as he transitioned from journalism to academia, influenced significantly by his mentor, David Womack. After serving as a senior fellow during his law school years, his passion for teaching grew. Pursuing academia provided Dr. Alexander with the opportunity to have a greater impact, merging his journalism and legal expertise.

Moving through academic positions at Temple University and then the University of Florida, Dr. Alexander eventually recognized the need for a PhD to advance his academic administration career. This realization led him to pursue a doctorate at Florida State University under the mentorship of Dr. Joe Beckham, specializing in educational leadership and policy.

Navigating Educational Transitions Transitioning between different educational stages—from undergraduate to master's, law school, and eventually a PhD—required Dr. Alexander to adapt and refine his approach consistently. Key to these transitions were the skills he developed early in life, such as goal-setting and methodical planning. He emphasized the importance of breaking down vast academic goals into manageable tasks, ensuring each step was carefully planned and executed.

Leveraging Diverse Academic Backgrounds Dr. Alexander acknowledged that each educational experience—journalism, law, and doctoral studies—equipped him with unique skills crucial for his role as Chancellor. His background in journalism enhanced his understanding of media relations, branding, and internal and external communications. His legal training proved invaluable in logical reasoning, argumentation, and managing large volumes of information. Similarly, his doctorates' focus on leadership in higher education provided him with comprehensive insights into the complexities of university administration.

Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students For those considering graduate school, Dr. Alexander advises a thorough self-assessment of motivations and goals. Understanding why you are pursuing further education can provide the necessary drive to overcome challenges. Evaluating practical aspects such as program affordability and accessibility and finding the right faculty to guide you can significantly enhance your graduate experience. Cultivating passion and grit remains essential, as these qualities sustain motivation through setbacks and tough times.

Conclusion Dr. Laurence Alexander’s academic and professional journey offers a profound testament to the cumulative value of diverse educational experiences. His seamless blending of journalism, law, and academic administration underscores the importance of passion, strategic planning, and adaptability. Aspiring graduate students can draw inspiration from his story, understanding that each educational pursuit, though unique, collectively builds a robust foundation for future success.

TRANSCRIPT (Unedited transcript created with the help of CastMagic)

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to be on this journey with you, and I call it a journey because it truly is a journey that you're on. You could be just starting to think about graduate school. You could be already you could have already applied to graduate school, gotten that acceptance letter, and and anxiously awaiting to go for your 1st day of class. You could be in graduate school right at the beginning, could be toward the end. But no matter where you are in this continuum, there are things that you can do to find success in that graduate school journey, and that's what this show is all about.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: This show is here to help you, to provide you with some tools for your toolbox, to give you some insights into the journeys of other people that have gone before you that have done graduate school, been successful in graduate school, and can offer you some insights into things that they had to do as they went through that for themselves. So I hope that with every episode, you're able to take something, something small, something big that you can then put into action right away to prepare yourself for the journey that you are embarking on. Today, we've got another great guest with us today. Dr. Laurence Alexander is with us today, and Dr. Alexander is the chancellor of the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to be able to introduce him to you to have you learn from his journey. Dr. Alexander, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:01:40]: Thanks, Dr. Lewis. Glad to be with you today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to kind of delve into this, and I'm excited to learn a little bit more about your journey as well. I know that for every person, there's that origin story. And there's that point in time where you find that you want to take your degrees to the next level. I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of New Orleans. And while you were there, you got that bachelor's degree in drama and communications. But at some point during that initial education, something awakened in you that made you decide that you wanted to go on, and you did go on. But let's go back in time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: Talk to me about what was it initially that made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:02:27]: Well, thank you for that question. You're absolutely right. There was a moment in time when as I was going through my undergraduate years, I was also working at the college newspaper. In my senior year, I became editor of the newspaper. So I served for a year working as the as the editor in chief and with a staff of about 25 or 30 students. And we published a newspaper every week and with the help of a newspaper advisor, who was a full time faculty member. And he was a very influential person, I thought, because he ended up being a mentor to me for many years to come. But during that time, I guess I thought I was getting a good feel for beginning my journalism career in at the University of New Orleans, but it didn't have a journalism program specifically.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:03:19]: It had a broad based communications program that was heavily based in drama, theater, arts. And so I got some very practical courses in that program. A couple of them were journalism specific courses, but I wanted more in-depth study and practice of journalism. So I started looking at programs, graduate programs, that would provide me with the kind of experience that I would need, the kind of preparation I would need for a career in journalism. And I started looking at the top journalism programs in the nation that also had master's programs in particular.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:59]: So you made the decision to attend the University of Florida, and I'd love for you to talk to me about you you said you were looking at a number of different programs. You looked at those top programs. Walk me through that thought process for yourself as you were whittling down those choices. And what made you finally decide that the University of Florida was the right place for you?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:04:19]: Well, there were a couple of other programs, you're right, that I was applying to, that I was looking at. I was based in New Orleans, my hometown. And, of course, I looked at Louisiana State University, which is a large research university, public university in the state of Louisiana, and I had a journalism program there for many years. I looked at programs in surrounding states, Arkansas, Mississippi. They happened to also be at major research universities that had major athletic programs in the, Southeastern Conference, which I did like football and basketball, and I watched a lot of it. So I heard of these schools. They, you know, the name brand resonated with me. But I also knew that the consensus top journalism program in the country was at Missouri.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:05:05]: And so I did apply to the University of Missouri. And and to my great happiness and surprise, I was accepted at Missouri. And I also applied at Florida. Florida was in the SEC. Several schools across the South I applied to, and I was accepted at Florida as well. And interesting though, with the Florida acceptance came an offer of a fellowship to study there. So an offer that came with some finances, some financial support to go to graduate school there. Florida was also pushing that they were one of the top schools in the nation, and it was certainly and still is.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:05:43]: But it also had some other appealing aspects to it in addition to a fellowship. And during the recruitment process, I did let them know I was considering going to Missouri, and and I really was kind of focused on going to the top school. And then about a week later, they called back and said that they had an additional scholarship that would basically take care of other expenses that I would have. So, I mean, it became an offer I couldn't refuse. The financials were you can't turn down essentially a full ride scholarship to graduate school at Florida. But I did add one other condition that they met, and that was I asked they had a Pulitzer prize winning editorialist on their faculty, and I wanted him to be my supervisor. And so I asked, is it possible that I could also get doctor Davis, Buddy Davis, to be my adviser? And they spoke with Buddy, and he came back and said, of course, yes. He'd be my adviser.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:06:38]: So I got a lot of what I wanted and what I was seeking at the time. Although I didn't go to Missouri, I didn't have any regrets. I got a first class education at at Florida and enjoyed my graduate education there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:49]: Now I know that was not the stop of your graduate education. You went on, and after finishing the master of arts degree, you something else must have awakened during that journalism and communications degree that you decided that you wanted to go to law school, which is a whole another completely different type of education. And so talk to me about that. What made you decide after thinking that you were gonna be starting this journalism career to kind of move in a little bit different direction to then going to law school?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:07:22]: For sure. And the law school interest started while I was an undergrad as well because there was another strand going on. I kind of I guess I I took a lot of courses in political science. Several of those courses focused on constitutional law and civil liberties and so in the judicial process. There was a professor there. I'll mention him Professor Ed Heck. He was a scholar and he had done his work on, Justice Brennan and the Supreme Court. And he was dynamic.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:07:50]: I mean, he was a great professor in my mind, great teacher, great scholar. And I took every course he taught and really enjoyed learning about the judicial process, the supreme court, civil liberties, and how the court makes its decisions. So I've had a real interest in law as an undergraduate, but and this may resonate with some people. I saw that law school at the time I was coming out was a 3 year commitment. I was not ready to do another 3 years of school when I came out as an undergraduate. So I took the shortcut into the master's program. But it never never escaped me that I had this interest in law. And I was around a lot of friends at the newsroom who were in law school.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:08:32]: It's interesting that the editor and the publisher of the newspaper, they're both had law degrees at the newspaper, and it felt comfortable to move in a direction following my passions. Because I felt at the time I wanted to cover courts, I felt from the time I was studying it, oh, it would be wonderful to cover the Supreme Court. Oh, wouldn't it be great? And in my research, I found that many of the journalists who were at the New York Times and Wall Street Journal and Washington Post, and they covered the Supreme Court had law degrees. So it it made perfect sense to try to extend my journalism career and to go into an area that I had significant interest in by pursuing a law degree and then moving forward in the profession.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:15]: And I know you did attend Tulane and went back to Louisiana. So talk to me about that decision because there's lots of law schools out there, and I'm sure that you had some opportunities to be able to go to a number of places. Was it just the draw of going home, or was it something else that drew you to deciding that Tulane was the right place for you?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:09:34]: Yeah. A couple of those things. I was already at home working for the newspaper. And so I started out looking for an opportunity where I could continue working and attend law school part time. So I wanted to go to law school as a kind of like graduate school, but it's professional school, but go part time and work full time. So I looked for opportunities, not just in New Orleans, but elsewhere. And they had several of those programs on the Eastern seaboard. You could work full time and But I would have to get a job in those places, a full time job, and go to law school as well.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:10:06]: Well, I was based in New Orleans, and there was a program there, that was part time that I focused on quite a bit, and that was at Loyola University in New Orleans. I applied. I was accepted. And I also applied to Tulane, and I I applied to just a couple of law schools because I I was based in New Orleans. Well, I I got it accepted into Loyola, and I was very happy with that. I sent in my check that I would be attending to reserve my spot in the fall class. And then I got an acceptance from Tulane as soon as I put that in the mix. And I really had to do some soul searching because I've always admired Tulane.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:10:43]: Tulane is a it had the prestige of being a member of the AAU. It's an institution that's well known and becoming more well known now because of its athletic programs. But its professional programs are top notch in business and law and medicine and and public health. Tulane is renowned for that. And I live not too far from Tulane when I was a teenager, so I could hear the roar of the crowds. And we knew we knew where we we all knew about Tulane in there. And it was a kind of a dream school that I thought I really Gee, I can never attend Tulane University. But I got an acceptance letter from Tulane and I said, Oh my, what am I gonna do now? So I went in, made an appointment with the associate dean in the law school and went in and talked with her about my decision.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:11:32]: And, of course, she put on a hard sell, and and the next thing you know, I was attending Tulane. Tulane did offer as well a partial tuition scholarship to help with the expenses, in law school. So I was very pleased to get that. And I thought, geez, this is fantastic. And so I got a first rate education there. But the decision of going to law school was really I think it was really hatched when I was an undergraduate, and it was solidified when I was a reporter and reporting on I did a lot of crime reporting, but I really wanted to report on the courts. The courts was really my focus point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:08]: So you went through law school, got that law degree, and at some point during that whole journey, you started making a little bit of a pivot and looking at working in higher education and moving from being that journalist and moving into higher ed. And I know that after a number of years, you made a final choice, continued that education to get a PhD after being a assistant professor and being a professor and getting that type of experience as well. So talk to me about that next step, and what made you decide that you wanted to get the PhD?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:12:46]: There's a little bit of logic in there somewhere. A logical process because it meandered a bit because I did go to law after wanting to do that. And then I did interview with newspapers and got a couple of job offers actually to go back into newspapers after law school. But there were some competing offers on the table, and one of them was to go into academia. And that same mentor, David Womack, who I mentioned earlier, who was the adviser for the paper, was leaving the University of New Orleans, and he was going to Temple University. And he called me up and said, you know, that he thought I would be perfect for this job. It was a faculty job. It was a job that paid less than I was getting paid when I was at the newspaper, but he thought I would be good at it.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:13:29]: He thought I would love doing it. He turned out to be right. One of the things I found out in law school is I did love teaching, got the opportunity to do to be a senior fellows in law school, were 3rd year law students who worked with faculty members to help instruct and teach and and guide 1st year law students through the legal research and writing course, writing briefs and memoranda. And I got a lot of experience working with students and grading their work and under the supervision of a professor. And at the same time, one of the law schools writing competitions, writing on to one of the law reviews at law school. So in that process, I I I also after I wrote on, I I actually wrote a comment, which is a shorter which is an article for our law journal, which was published. So I got an experience of getting published in the law journal. And that was really, I mean, a coming together of things of, of sorts, of of the writing skills, of the wanting to write and be published.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:14:31]: Instead of being published in daily journalism, I was being published in an academic journal. At the same time, I was getting this teaching experience. So walking into academia was, was an easy choice in the walk, but I still was a little unsure about whether I would remain there or whether I would return to the journalism roots or or go to a different career. Well, I started it. And after 1 year there, there was an opening at Temple in the same day Womack. Doctor Womack called me and told me about an opening at Temple. And before you know it, I was on the faculty at Temple. Now I didn't just go to Temple just to go to Temple.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:15:08]: I went to Temple to get kind of what I got when I left UNO the first time, was to go to a place where journalism was on a larger stage, where I had colleagues who were in the journalism profession, where I had a real exposure to journalism and the profession and and the professoriate. And so that was an that was an important move for me. And I stayed at Temple for 3 years, then I made the move to to the University of Florida as a faculty member doing teaching and research. And then as soon as I about 3 years into Florida, I was tenured and promoted, and an opening came as chair of the department, and the dean encouraged me to apply for it, and I got the job as chair. I wasn't sure if I would love administration, but I did. Did like administration. But I found out something after several years of working in administration, that in order to move up to a dean or provost or president or something of that sort, I would need more than my law degree. That in order to navigate the universities successfully, I would need, I would need to get a doctorate, a PhD.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:16:19]: So I looked and searched and because I was raising a family in Gainesville and, and whatnot, I looked around the area, I didn't want to do it at the University of Florida, because I didn't wanna go to my colleagues, you know, over in education. So I looked around and and Florida State had a program that would meet my needs. But more importantly, there was a professor on the on on the faculty there, doctor Joe Beckham, who had a law degree, had that kind of background that could be my mentor, adviser, and and sponsor for the PhD program at, Florida State. And I only applied to one doctoral program, and that was Florida State. So I I was accepted, and as they say, the rest is history. But by then, I was fully involved. I was probably about 15 years into my academic career, and I was at a crossroads and needed to get the additional credential. And in the meantime, I was able to extend the the additional credential.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:17:10]: And in the meantime, I was able to extend the research that I was doing. I had done quite a bit of research. And my research was bringing together media and law all along, up and rising through the ranks. But I extended that to first amendment analysis as it relates to public colleges and universities and free speech on campus.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:28]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that. Now I know that with all of these different degrees that you receive, you had transitions. There were transitions from your undergrad to your master's to the law school to your doctorate. In each of those different settings, you're taught in a little bit different way. The expectations are different. The way you have to think about things, process things, write about things is a little bit different. So can you and you found success in those transitions. Can you talk to me about what you had to do in each of those different transitions that you went through that you had to set up for yourself as you transitioned in, but also as you transition through that helped you find that success?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:18:08]: Oh, yes. I can talk about those. But I guess I hadn't reflected a whole lot on that on that point in particular. But as I think about it and as I think because you're right, I I mean, after undergraduate, I obtained 3 more degrees. So in order to be successful in those areas, I always relied on kind of some of the tools that I learned actually in high school in terms of goal setting and in terms of achievement. So I go all the way to the end product. What is it that I want to achieve? I want to obtain the degree and I work backwards. So what's it gonna take to to obtain the degree? And I make lists.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:18:46]: And I go through those lists, and then I break it down to to its smallest parts to what's it gonna take to be successful in this course. To get this degree, I need to get these courses. I need to get this dissertation. I need to get this thesis done. But to break it down to its component parts and say, okay. What things do I need to do to be successful in these courses? What things do I need to do? And then I proceed to make the changes in my life that are going to aid me in that process. Because at different stages in my life, I was in a different places. At one point, I was at the University of Florida where I got a full ride.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:19:20]: I was paying my own bills, living in a very tiny apartment off campus. But when I decided to go to law school, I was living in an apartment and working. And I gave up my apartment. I gave up my car. I gave up everything because I needed to make it as affordable as possible to go to law school. So I had to defer a lot of the gratification that many of my colleagues and friends had. So I had to make those conscious decisions that in order to achieve the goal that I want to achieve, in order to achieve the degree of success, I'm going to have to reorder my life and reprioritize some of those things that I enjoy doing so that, ultimately, I'm performing at a very high level with respect to my courses and classes, and that I'm I'm achieving the grades and the success that I need to achieve with that. At the same time, I'm keeping some sort of a handle on my life outside of school, but making sure that at the same time that the people around me understand, I'm in school.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:20:21]: I need to study. I'm gonna devote myself to this and making a conscious decision to achieve goals that lead to the achievement of higher goals all along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:30]: With all of the different degrees that you've had, the teaching experience, the administrative experience, all of these pieces have made you who you are today. And as you reflect back and look back to the different degrees that you did receive and now the work that you're doing as the chancellor of the University of Michigan, Flint, how do you feel that these degrees have helped to prepare you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:20:54]: Well, I think each and every degree that I've obtained has been essential to my success in even obtaining this job at U of M Flint. I think because going back to journalism, for instance, a lot of what the leader of an institution needs to be aware of and needs to have a an understanding of nowadays is media. They need to have even if they haven't studied media as a profession, but it's it was very beneficial to me to have a fuller understanding of marketing, advertising, promotion, and branding because that is what these institutions rely on. People see the block m, they see the m Flint, and they see that as emblematic of a great university, a great institution of quality in education. And so those notions stay with me constantly in in terms of how do we present ourselves or how are we perceived by the publics out there? And I did say publics plural, but in the very public arenas that are out there. Also, how we proceed in just daily journalism. How are we covered? Are we getting the information and messaging out? In communications, are we communicating both internally and externally to all of our constituents? And and I was reading something the other day that said university leaders probably communicate with more and diverse audiences than any other profession out there because we serve because of the population we serve and because of the status we hold within our communities. But it was vitally important.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:22:26]: The same with law. A lot of folks ask me, do you ever use your law degree? Oh, I use it every day. And not just using my law degree to I mean, I'm not arguing in court, but I'm framing arguments every day to in terms of advocating on behalf of the institution. Can you advocate without a law degree? Sure, you can. But I believe that those those skills that I learned in law school in terms of framing a quality argument versus just an argument or or improving on an argument or making it sharper and using more precise language in terms of that. I think those things are much learned behavior and all the other skills that come along with it, dealing with large volumes of material. Lawyers are trained in that way. We're sort of prepared for that.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:23:11]: And then decision making, I think the judicial process of reasoning, inductive and deductively, a reasoning of logical reasoning of of all of those things come together in law school to provide you with that kind of background. And in my doctoral program, well, that program was very specific to this kind of leadership position because it covered the entire range of things that I would face as a top administrator. I didn't know at the time that I would become a top administrator of a university, but those lessons learned are invaluable.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:43]: And as you think back to your own graduate education and you think of students that are considering going to graduate school or maybe at the beginning of their graduate school experience, what are some tips that you might offer to anyone thinking about graduate education and going to graduate school?

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:23:59]: Well, I think when I'm advising people who go to graduate school, I I want them to think through why they're going. Think through what is it that you want to do, want to achieve. Think about what is the driving mechanism there. Because at some point in graduate school, whether it's a master's degree or a doctoral degree, you're gonna face some challenges. It's gonna face some difficult times. And that's where the passion or the drive or the grit is gonna come from to push you and motivate you to continue despite setbacks and despite some difficulties you might face while you're in your program. I would advise anyone considering graduate school to be to look at the range of possible choices out there and to look at them with a realistic eye toward what is affordable to them, what is accessible to them. Look at the faculty who are in the area that you wanna study.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:24:54]: I think that's brought me the greatest satisfaction even in my first graduate degree where I requested to have a Pulitzer prize winning editorialist as my advisor. I mean, I was looking at the faculty and saying, hey. I wanna study with those people. When I look at the faculty at Tulane, there were lots of distinguished folks when I read their bios. And then when I looked at faculty at Florida State, I was able to choose one who was really and truly qualified to be my dissertation adviser and to guide me through the program. And so these are people who you have to think will will go on to be your colleagues in the years and days ahead. So you may not be thinking about that in choosing a graduate school, but that's something to think about because if you choose someone or if you choose an institution that has the faculty in place who can provide you with the background that you need, you are much more likely to, 1, be successful, to, 2, to enjoy and appreciate and get a lot of satisfaction out of your experience. And then more so, you're going to be successful within the program.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:25:54]: You're going to be successful after the program, as you go about your career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:59]: Well, doctor Alexander, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey with all of us today. Thank you for giving all of these pieces of advice for those of us, for those students that are really considering graduate school. And I truly wish you all the best as you have stepped into this new role at the University of Michigan Flint and in the journey to come. So I truly wish you the best, and thank you for being here today.

Dr. Laurence Alexander [00:26:24]: Oh, I want to thank you, Dr. Lewis, for the, giving me this opportunity, and I wanted to give one final piece of advice to anyone out there who is considering graduate study. Please look closely at the University of Michigan Flint. Go Flint. Go Blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:39]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is an essential phase in one’s academic and professional journey, offering an intricate blend of learning, research, and networking opportunities. During the 2024 NAGAP Conference, a diverse group of experts provided valuable insights on strategies that can help graduate students maximize their success. Here's a comprehensive guide drawn from their collective wisdom.

Leverage Campus Resources

• Bethany Satrom from Indiana University Bloomington highlighted the importance of utilizing all available resources on campus. Many institutions offer a wealth of support services such as career services hubs, faculty mentorship programs, and various networking events.
• Brett DiMarzo from Boston College emphasized the need for students to immerse themselves fully in their academic curriculum and extract maximum value from the experience. Accessing these resources can significantly enrich a graduate student's academic life and bolster their professional readiness.
• Corey Carey from John Brown University urged students to explore lesser-known resources like academic advising and tutoring, which often go untapped. By navigating through their university portals and uncovering every nook and cranny, students can find numerous support structures that can enhance their academic journey.

Engage with Faculty and Mentors

• Keith Ramsdell from Ashland University underscored the importance of maintaining regular communication with academic advisors. Unlike undergraduate programs, graduate students often work closely with academic professionals in their field of study, making these relationships invaluable for guidance and future employment opportunities.
• Daniel Truesdale from the University of Chicago advised students to build strong networks with their professors and faculty. Engaging with faculty outside of classrooms and seeking mentorship can open doors to numerous networking opportunities and enrich the learning experience.
• Sarah Wenger from Indiana University noted the significance of having a champion or mentor throughout one’s graduate studies. A mentor can provide critical advice and support, helping students navigate the complexities of their academic and professional journeys.

Build and Nurture Your Community

Community building is a recurring theme among the experts.

• Brian Desrosiers-Tam from the University of Toronto** recommended that students find and actively engage with their community, whether through clubs, organizations, or professional groups. This engagement not only provides support but also enhances the overall graduate experience.
• Les Mackey from Fort Hays State University** emphasized the importance of connecting with a wide range of peers, faculty, and staff. Extending these connections beyond one’s primary area of study can lead to unexpected opportunities and collaborations.

Seek Interdisciplinary Experiences

• Sam Fleischman provided a unique perspective on the value of interdisciplinary experiences. He argued that integrating different fields of study enriches one’s education and broadens intellectual horizons. This approach not only makes individuals better professionals but also prepares them to tackle multifaceted challenges in the real world.

Network and Engage Professionally

• Jeremiah Nelson from Catawba College advised students not to overlook the importance of networking within their professional communities. Building connections beyond the academic environment can significantly impact career prospects.
• Tony Fraga from DD Agency** highlighted the importance of pairing academic achievements with industry-specific certifications. Earning certifications and adding them to your professional profiles can create a compelling advantage in the job market.

Focus on Personal Well-being

• Dr. Noranda Wright from Georgia Southern University spoke on the importance of balancing academic responsibilities with personal well-being. Graduate studies can be overwhelming, so it's crucial to recognize stress triggers and take necessary breaks. Maintaining wellness is key to sustaining long-term success.

Stay Inquisitive and Persistent

• Kandice King from the University of Rochester** encouraged students to remain inquisitive and persistent. Asking questions and constantly seeking knowledge can drive continuous personal and professional growth. This attitude is especially vital for PhD students who need to persevere through challenging research and experimentation.

Embrace and Expand Your Network

• Anna Marie Bliss from WashU in Saint Louis suggested that students keep open communication lines with faculty, colleagues, and staff while being open to new ideas and cultural perspectives. Expanding your network and being adaptable can lead to significant academic and professional growth.

The insights shared by the experts at the NAGAP 2024 Conference offer a comprehensive blueprint for maximizing academic and professional success in graduate school. By leveraging campus resources, engaging with mentors, building communities, exploring interdisciplinary experiences, and maintaining personal well-being, students can navigate their graduate journeys with confidence and purpose. Whether you are just beginning your studies or are well on your way, these strategies provide valuable guidance to help you succeed.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. And this week, we've got a special episode of a number of different people that I had the chance to meet at the 2024 nag app conference. And if you've never heard of NAGAP, NAGAP is the National Association For Graduate Enrollment Management And graduate enrollment professionals come together every year at their annual conference to be able to talk about how to support graduate students like yourself. And at this conference, I talked to a number of different people and asked them the question of what key strategies or actions should students undertake during graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success? This show is all about success, and every week I wanna bring you different thoughts, ideas, perspectives. And today, you've got a whole slew of a number of different people that are going to be giving you just that. Their strategies, their thoughts on that specific question. You'll hear them answering the question in a lot of different ways. No editing has been happening in regard to what they said. And I wanted to make sure to share that with all of you. I hope you enjoy it and look forward to having you come back again next week for another great episode.

Anna Marie Bliss [00:01:31]: Hi. My name is Anna Marie Bliss, and I'm the associate director of recruitment and admissions at WashU in Saint Louis. My top three strategies or pieces of advice that students should take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success would be to keep open lines of communication with staff and faculty and also their colleagues. The second one would be to be open minded and open to new ideas and different ways of thinking, especially as we think about different cultural upbringings and the ways that people are acting and engaging around us. And then finally, to seek mentorship from students who are more experienced, from faculty members, but also from key staff who are there to help aid in their success and think about career goals.

Bethany Satrom [00:02:12]: Hi. I'm Bethany Satrom from the Indiana University Bloomington campus. I'm an admissions manager, so I mostly process applications for our faculty to review and a lot of data work. I think the key strategy to or action that students should take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success is to really utilize all the resources available on our campus, whether that be our career services hub or just talking with going to the networking events that we host in both in Bloomington and in other locations especially in their home cities or home countries. We try to be very involved in our international student life both on campus and off campus. I think students don't take as much advantage of that at the School of Public Environmental Affairs that I work at as much as they maybe could or should and so I think that there are other schools that maybe have a little more success with that, but I think that we're working on trying to implement more plans to make it more accessible and easier to obtain these resources.

Brett DiMarzo [00:03:16]: Hi. I'm Brett DeMarzo. I'm the director of digital strategy and graduate enrollment at Boston College. And to answer the question, what key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success is really to invest in the time and the effort into taking the most out of their experience. Talking with professors, getting into the academic curriculum, really putting their whole heart into the entire experience so that they really get the value out of that program.

Brian Desrosiers-Tam [00:03:49]: Hi. My name is Brian Desrosiers Thame. I am assistant dean at the School of Graduate Studies at the University of Toronto. What key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize your academic and professional success? Well, I have three thoughts that I'm happy to share. I think as a graduate student who joins a new school, a new program, you know, you should make sure that you maximize all available resources that are available to you. Think about the writing center, the professional services that exist. So just make sure you'll learn about them during your orientation, and once you do, make sure you access them. The second one I think would be find your community and be part of it. Even though you may be in a remote, hybrid, or in person event, make sure you stay engaged with the community. Get to know your graduate administrators, your graduate coordinators or chairs, but also your fellow students. And a good way to do that is to, even in grad school, join some clubs, some organization, and just be sure to be present. And then by developing that sense of community, you'll have peers, colleagues who will be there to help you in the good and in the bad times. So good luck.

Corey Carey [00:04:49]: My name is Corey Carey, and I'm a grad and online enrollment professional from John Brown University. And I would say that a key strategy that students should undertake during their grad studies to maximize academic and professional success is to seek out all of the things that universities offer but might not market. So different resources like academic advising, tutoring, things like that that are offered that maybe get lost in the shuffle of getting enrolled, getting getting ready for classes, getting your textbooks. So, if I were well, I am a graduate student and the things that I do is get online on my the portal that my university uses and just search every nook and cranny to find all the resources that are available to me because a lot of times resources will go untapped, unused just because students don't know about them. So that would be my advice to students is to seek out all the resources that university offers.

Daniel Truesdale [00:05:51]: My name is Daniel Truesdale. I'm the associate director of enrollment management at the University of Chicago for the applied data science program. Some of the advice I always give to incoming students, you have your formal support structures while you're in the program, but also make sure to take advantage of connecting with your professors and your faculty, especially from a networking perspective. Part of grad school isn't just the technical expertise that you're going to gain, but it's also the network and community that you're going to develop. So that's an amazing opportunity that you have to take advantage of. Also, remember not to kinda lose the forest amongst the leaves. More than likely, you're you're paying to be here. You're dedicating your time.

Daniel Truesdale [00:06:29]: We could be spent elsewhere. Make sure that you are gaining everything even outside outside of the curriculum that the program has to offer. So if that's organizations, if that's clubs, take advantage of those as well. So I always wanna press that because I think sometimes students forget that part of a graduate education is not just what you're gonna learn in the classroom, but the community and friendships you're gonna develop outside as well. So that would probably be my biggest advice for grad students.

Jamie Gleason [00:07:00]: I'm Jamie Gleason from DD Agency. The question is what key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize academic or professional success? And I would really lean into 2 things. Graduate studies is all about network creation. So find the smartest person in your classes and get to know them more. And then ask your faculty members about internship experiences that might be applicable to the classes that you're taking, and then really dig into the things that you love and find experience work experiences in those areas to flesh out your love a little bit more.

Jeremiah Nelson [00:07:38]: I'm Jeremiah Nelson. I am the outgoing immediate past president of NAGAP and a faculty member at Catawba College, Kettner School of Business. And the strategies that I recommend for my graduate students are focused on not forgetting that their academic experience is not the only experience with being a graduate student. To maximize their success, what they also need to do is to network and to engage in their professional communities. It doesn't matter how smart you are if people don't know who you are. And so you need to make sure that you are both building your skills, but also that you are getting out into the world, engaging with your professional community, and making connections so that when it's time for a job that you're ready and that people are recommending you.

Kandice King [00:08:27]: Hi. My name is Kandice King. I am with University of Rochester's School of Medicine and Dentistry in Rochester, New York. As the director of graduate enrollment at SMD, I am, often asked by students about what kind of strategies they might utilize to maximize their success. And since we recruit for PhD students where we have a lot of persistence that is necessary in the success of experimentation and advancing science, always ask questions. Continue to build your persistence and continue to be inquisitive and curious throughout your graduate study and that will help you with both your academic and your personal success.

Keith Ramsdell [00:09:07]: Hi, I'm Keith Ramsdell and I'm the vice president for enrollment management and marketing at Ashland University in Ashland, Ohio and I've been in that role for about oh three and a half years now and I'm pleased to answer this question the question specifically is what key strategies or action should students take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success? Now I think the one of the biggest things is to work constantly and regularly with your academic advisor unlike undergraduate programs where you're working oftentimes with a professional advisor which is great, on the graduate side, the focus really is with academic professionals who are in your area of study who can really give you some wise direction, wise counsel on the courses to take, why those courses are being taken, who to take and those types of things. They're also probably the best connected people to help you find employment after you're done certainly I know on our campus our career center for life calling also assists graduate students with finding employment when they're completed with their programs, but really those who are best connected to help you after you're done with your program are gonna be your faculty, those are the folks who have very likely been out in the field, they're connected in one way or another through their professional associations and through other networks that they've built, they can be a great resource for you and that's the direction I would encourage you to go.

Les Mackey [00:10:31]: Hey there. This is Les Mackey, and I currently work with the Graduate School at Fort Hays State University. So the question, maximizing academic and professional success in graduate studies. Gosh. So many things. I guess I'll kind of split some 2 things and I'll start with the academic success side of this. First off, I think it's important to get out there and just be open to new knowledge and learning. Be open to new experiences altogether and don't be afraid to get out of your comfort zone. At this point, when you get into grad school, you've already been in school for pretty long time. But in terms of just college, you've already been in college for 3, 4 years. And it's easy to get comfortable and complacent with what you do know, but it's okay not to know everything. I think one of the biggest things you can learn, and I learned in grad school, is that it's okay to say, I don't know, but I would like to. Maintain that growth mindset and stay curious. Now, looking at the professional success side of this, connect with faculty, staff, peers, and don't limit yourself to just your primary area of study or just your department at your institution. Get out there and connect with everybody. If you get the opportunity to attend a conference, whether it's to present research or for professional development purposes, connect with as many attendees as possible. If the chance ever arises to connect with alumni, go for it. Grow your network in the most meaningful way you can so you can leverage these connections during and beyond grad school. Any of these people could be a potential supervisor or colleague in the future, so take advantage of those opportunities.

Marcus Hanscome [00:11:59]: I'm Marcus Hanscomb. I'm the director of enrollment marketing at DD Agency, and I'm 17 and a half years out of the higher ed side and working in universities with students. And students who wanna maximize their opportunities for academic professional success, there's opportunities certainly with graduate student associations and student clubs and certainly academic organizations if possible. So I always encourage students to take advantage of that in their time. And sometimes students are busy, so they find ways to not do those things. But also taking advantage of the opportunity to maybe volunteer for research even. There's a lot of things that are built into an academic program that students obviously have to do, but the students that really succeed and do well in the long term are the ones that jump a little bit further. They take that opportunity to volunteer with different faculty, maybe try something different than the research that they're used to, just to expose them to other areas of the discipline. Sometimes students really find something that interests them and then that kind of points them in a different direction, particularly for dissertations or thesis research later on. So students really kind of expand are gonna do the best in the long run, and I encourage them to do that.

Dr. Noranda Wright [00:12:55]: Hi. I'm Dr. Noranda Wright, associate dean of graduate student services at Georgia Southern University. And I think some of the key strategies or actions that students should take during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional studies range from providing, professional mentors to help them balance their self, look for a balance in higher education in their studies, figure out what works for them, what doesn't work, see what the institution is offering for them to help them in their academic and their professional studies. A lot of times students are trying to overwhelm themselves to get things done instead of taking a break when it's needed. They need to focus on their wellness while they're doing their graduate studies. It's a lot to be a graduate student and to be successful in academics and your professional life. So finding that balance where they can take time for themselves and be able to remove themselves from situations that causes them stress and realize that what what triggers them for that. So I think that's one of the biggest things that they can use as strategies, finding themselves, knowing what their triggers are when they're going through stressful situations, when they're studying or writing papers, find that time to disconnect for a few minutes and just kinda recenter and refocus themselves.

Philip Guerrero [00:13:59]: My name is Philip Guerrero. I'm the graduate program administrator for geosciences at the University of Texas at Austin. What key strategies or actions should students undertake during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success? Probably top on the list as it is for any profession or individual in their jobs or jobs of the future is to network and to know as many people as they can. I always advise graduate students in my program to talk to career services, find out who are the people they need to talk to, where they're going to work, what kind of industry they're going to work in, and make those connections. They should also talk to their current faculty. Their faculty had to go to graduate school at some point, so they know about opportunities and how to be successful in their academic careers and professionally as well.

Sam Fleischman [00:14:49]: Samuel Fleischman. Normally go by Sam Fleischman. When I think about what students should think about when doing their graduate studies to find success both academically and professionally, I think about as much interdisciplinary work as possible. An engineer is not as good as an engineer that understands philosophy and literature. Somebody who cares about literature will write better stories when they understand the cultural dynamics of the other students in other colleges. So as much as universities can support the intersectionality, inter correspondence, interdisciplinary approach to help people take their level of expertise, which they are growing in, and align it with other people who are just as passionate about what they're growing in, I think the world will be a better place.

Sarah Lemus [00:15:40]: Hello. I'm Sarah Lemus. I'm a graduate admissions coordinator. And to answer this question would be to have students more engaged in organizations, clubs, participate in different social events to network. And so just to, again, make those connections outside of their labs and just be able to come into contact with other people to help them perhaps in the future on their professional and academic success.

Tony Fraga [00:16:13]: My name's Tony Fraga. I am the CEO of DD Agency, and I'm gonna answer a question here about key strategies and actions that I think students should undertake during their graduate studies to maximize their academic and professional success. And you've invested so much in this graduate program, you're working hard to do it, but you need to pair it with practical industry specific certifications. The ones that you literally could put as like badges on your LinkedIn profile. You pair those certifications with your graduate degree, and that's a one two combo that employers can't say no to.

Sarah Wanger [00:16:49]: Hello. I'm Sarah Wenger. I'm the executive director of the Kelly Direct online MBA at the Kelly School of Business at Indiana University. One key strategy or action I think the graduate student should take is making sure before you begin your studies to think about who your champion's gonna be, to think through the person, the people, the group, the resource that you're gonna use to get yourself through your program. When I went through school, I had a mentor and I made sure that I utilized her throughout my graduate studies and on through my doctorate to just talk to and ask questions and really just make sure that I was on the right track.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate school is a journey marked by substantial growth, rigorous academic challenges, and opportunities to make a lasting impact. For Nia Ahart, a 2nd-year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan Flint, this journey has been particularly enlightening and transformative. In a revealing conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis, host of the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Nia shared her experiences, insights, and the keys to her success. This blog delves into these topics, offering a comprehensive guide for those considering or participating in graduate education.

Finding the Spark: Discovering a Passion for Physical Therapy

Early Inspirations

Nia's journey to choosing physical therapy as her career path began early, rooted in her family's involvement in sports. Her brother, a baseball player at Akron, and Nia herself both encountered shoulder injuries requiring rehabilitation. This early exposure to physical therapy sparked her curiosity and desire to specialize in a field that would help athletes return to their optimal performance.

A Personal Experience

Continuing her athletic career in college, she played basketball at Colgate University and Northern Illinois University. She dealt with various injuries, spending significant time in training and physical therapy. These experiences deepened her appreciation for the field, particularly the non-invasive treatments that allowed her to avoid potentially career-ending surgery. This personal success in rehabilitation cemented her commitment to physical therapy.

Choosing the Right Graduate Program: A Thoughtful Decision

Evaluation Criteria

Selecting a graduate school is often a complex decision. For Nia, the choice was influenced by several critical factors, including faculty expertise, opportunities for specialization in sports therapy, and connections within the industry. She initially compiled a list of schools meeting these criteria and engaged in extensive research to narrow down her options.

Coming Back Home

The University of Michigan Flint emerged as the top choice due to its strong faculty-student relationships, comprehensive support systems, and the unique opportunity to partake in the pro bono heart clinic. Moreover, her personal ties to Michigan, including her mother's alma mater and her uncle's coaching role, reinforced her decision to return home.

Navigating the Transition: From Undergraduate to Graduate Studies

Adjusting to New Academic Demands

Transitioning from undergraduate work to a graduate program presents challenges, notably the shift in academic expectations and teaching methods. For Nia, the biggest adjustment was managing her time effectively. In undergraduate studies, her schedule was dictated by sports commitments and coursework. However, in graduate school, she found herself with more unstructured free time that needed careful planning.

Strategies for Success

Nia emphasized the importance of using a planner to organize her time, combining digital and physical to-do lists to keep track of assignments, volunteer opportunities, and exams. Establishing a study routine at the semester's beginning and setting aside time for self-care and relaxation were also crucial.

Embracing Leadership and Diversity: Building Community

Initiating Change

Recognizing the importance of diversity and inclusion in healthcare, Nia co-founded and presided over the Wolverine BIPOC Healthcare Collective in her first year. This club aimed to provide a supportive community for students of color and foster a network of future healthcare professionals committed to serving diverse patient populations.

Impactful Work

Through meetings, guest speakers, and community partnerships, the club has made significant strides in creating a sense of belonging and promoting inclusivity within the program. Nia’s efforts in this area earned her the Diversity and Inclusion Award from Exat, an honor recognizing her dedication to fostering a more inclusive healthcare environment.

Looking to the Future: Career Aspirations and Advice

Evolving Aspirations

As Nia progresses through her program, her career aspirations have evolved. Initially, she dreamed of working with top-tier sports teams like the NBA or NFL. However, exposure to various patient demographics and clinical settings has opened her mind to other possibilities within outpatient care and sports therapy.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Nia's journey offers several valuable lessons for prospective and current graduate students. Key among these is not to overly stress about the graduate school process. Having a support network, finding an accountability buddy, and discovering one's preferred learning style early on can significantly ease the transition and improve academic performance.

Graduate school is a challenging yet rewarding journey that requires a blend of passion, dedication, and effective time management. Nia Ahart’s story is a testament to the remarkable opportunities and growth that come with embracing these challenges head-on. Aspiring graduate students can draw inspiration from her experience, using her insights as a roadmap to navigate their own paths to success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are going through this graduate school exploration. And it is a process. It is something that will take some people a couple of years, some people a few months, some people a few days. You never know. But for a lot of people, it is definitely a process, and it is a journey as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:49]: So as you are going through this journey, there are things that you can do, things that you can do right now to be able to help you to start on that path towards success in getting into graduate school, getting through graduate school, and being able to get out into the career that you want to be in. That's why this podcast exists. This podcast is here to help you on that journey. It's here to help you to learn and to grow from other people that have gone before you, that are in graduate school right now, that are that have been in graduate school in the past and can provide you with some insights, some tools for your toolbox, some things that will help you to be able to set yourself up for that success that you wanna see. Today, we got another great guest with us. Nia Ahardt is with us today, and Nia is a 2nd year physical therapy student at the University of Michigan Flint. I am really excited to have her here today to share her journey with you and to provide you with some of the things that she's learned along the way. Nia, thanks so much for being here today.

Nia Ahart [00:01:54]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:55]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And one of the things that I first love doing is being able to turn the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at Colgate University, and you got that bachelor's degree, the bachelor's of arts in biology there. And then you took a little bit of time and went and played some basketball for Northern Illinois University and finished up some of your pre physical therapy, to PT programs. But I wanna go back. Let's go back to Colgate University, maybe even before that, and talk to me about that spark, that moment that you figured out for yourself that you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's degree, and you wanted to go into physical therapy. What led you to that, and what led you to decide that physical therapy was the path that you were on?

Nia Ahart [00:02:46]: So I actually started pretty young. So I grew up in a sports family, and my brother is just my role model. So he played bass baseball at Akron, and he tore his labrum. And at the same time he was 7 years apart, so I was young. I had a shoulder injury too, and we were doing physical therapy at the same time. So I was able to see his rehab, see his recovery. And then with myself, I noticed that the physical therapy that I was receiving wasn't specific to returning to sport. It was more so returning to daily life, and that's what intrigued me.

Nia Ahart [00:03:22]: It's like, oh, maybe I could do something that could get an athlete back to their original skill set, so that's where it in, interests me. And and like you said, I did play basketball in college at Colgate in Northern Illinois, and I dealt with a lot of injuries myself. I had stayed in the trainer room, stayed with physical therapy, so it just continued my interest. But I was able to go through physical therapy and avoid a potentially career ending surgery, and that's where I just fell in love, where I can save somebody from having surgery or having an invasive procedure, and I can recover and rehab their injuries back to their sport. And I was able to successfully play my last year because of it. So that is where I wanted to continue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:06]: Now I mentioned that you had gone to Northern Illinois. You finished up playing your last year of basketball there. And during that time, you were taking a number of prerequisites, getting those prerequisites done so you could apply for physical therapy school. And as you were finishing those up and going into the application process, I'm sure you did a lot of looking around and a lot of exploration to try to determine where you wanted to apply. And you ultimately decided to attend the University of Michigan, Flint. Talk to me about that thought process, that exploration process, what you were looking for in schools, and what made the University of Michigan Flint stand out, and what made you decide that that was the ultimate school that you wanted to attend?

Nia Ahart [00:04:54]: It started off with that 5th year. I originally made a list of schools that had PT programs that I was interested in going to just had connections to both a good faculty and advisor standpoint as well as people that specialize in sports, which I'm hoping to get into, with physical therapy. So that's where I originally started. As I continue my application process, I realized since I was away from school for the past or away from Michigan for the past 5 years, I really wanted to come back home. My mom is a Michigan grad, My uncle was a track coach at Michigan, so I really wanted to come back home, spend some time with my family. And I just loved when I went to the open house, how connected the faculty was with the students. And it seemed like they had a great advisor student relationship, as well as a lot of peer to peer opportunities. And the thing that really stood out about Michigan's program was the pro bono clinic at heart.

Nia Ahart [00:05:50]: Just being able to work with patients real time as we're learning the material as and we can see it in person and develop our clinical skills while still developing our didactic portion. I've, it was really exciting, and I love every bit about it. So that is what solidified it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:07]: So you made that transition. And you've had a number of transitions going from Colgate to Northern Illinois, to then physical therapy school. So you probably have some idea of what it takes to be able to go from school to school. But still, in going from undergraduate work and being taught in that way to going into a physical therapy doctorate program is very different. You're taught in a different way. The expectations are different. So again, can sometimes be a stark transition when you step into that type of learning environment. Talk to me about that transition for you and what did you have to do as you transitioned in to the program to find success in that journey? And what have you had to do as you've gone along to be able to both set yourself up and continue that success throughout the program.

Nia Ahart [00:07:00]: The biggest thing for me was time management. In undergrad, since I played a sport, everything was planned out for me. I had a set schedule. I had a lot of free time, but I had to learn the skills to time manage and get things done with practice and lift. I think coming into grad school, it was new because I was just I was a student. Like, I didn't have to worry about going to practice. I didn't have to worry about missing school for gains, And I had a lot of free time that I wasn't used to. So just being able to develop a plan to get all my schoolwork done, still have time for me to take care of myself, do self care, work out was really big for me.

Nia Ahart [00:07:40]: I am blessed to have the foundation I had from sports and from high school too, but definitely time management. That has been a very big skill and has propelled me to succeed in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:52]: As you talk about time management, are there specific things that you did to be able to not only manage your time well, but be able to really allow for you to go from that where you said that people were scheduling your time to now you having to do that yourself and having to really get yourself into that different mode. Are there specific things that you did to be able to help you to manage that well?

Nia Ahart [00:08:18]: So my roommate actually got me into using a planner. I used to just use my to do list on my iPhone and just cross things out because I had so much time between assignments. But actually, planning out my life weekly and monthly has been really helpful just to see it on paper and just satisfying to cross things off by hand. I still keep my to do list on my iPhone, but it's nice to have a physical copy. And I would just say organizing myself at the beginning of the semester is something that I always have done, but just going through my syllabi and just right now, all the major assignments we have to do, right now, all of the volunteer opportunities that I signed up for, just having a sheet, a calendar for the whole semester really helps me stay focused and stay on track. Personally, I can work pretty much everywhere. I definitely need my free time just to relax, but thankfully for me, I can work and watch a little episode. So it's nice to have that self motivation to be able to work wherever.

Nia Ahart [00:09:17]: I think that has set me apart for sure and has made me less stressed because I am very flexible in my studies.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: Now recently, we heard that you were being recognized with a scholarship from Exat. And if you don't know what Exat is, Exat's a company that is focused on giving health science students in individuals in academia what they're looking for by providing education management solutions. Now, Nia, you were awarded the, Diversity and Inclusion Award, and this honors students that are promoting diversity and inclusion in the healthcare workforce. Talk to me about that, that award that you receive. And what did you do to be able to allow yourself to be considered for this award?

Nia Ahart [00:10:04]: It was a great opportunity, the Diversity Inclusion Award. I had to fill out an application and go present it to our faculty, and they read our essays before selecting someone. So thankfully, I received the award. So this year, I started a diversity or BIPOC healthcare club called the Wolverine BIPOC Healthcare Collective. As 1st year, myself and Zoe Humes, we are cofounders and I'm the president. So we came in as 1st year, then we realized the lack of diversity within the program. And it's just important to have a space where we can be ourselves and have community and network to become developing health care clinicians so we can help all patients, but especially patients that look like us. So I was fortunate enough to start a club, and it's been going well.

Nia Ahart [00:10:53]: We had our first meeting in January, and we've had meetings since. And we're starting to grow both physical therapy and occupational therapy. We're bringing in guest speakers, so that was in partnering community events around us and community partners. So that was a really big point in my application of this club, and it wasn't new to me to be a part of something like this. I was an ambassador in undergrad for something similar for athletes of color. But this is my first time starting this with my roommate, but from the ground up, starting in my 1st year with a lot of new changes. And it was pretty early on that we got the ball rolling in the semester. So I think just showing the initiative and just creating the space for support with fellow BIPOC members of the community was great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:42]: Now not every student will jump into getting involved in that way. They'll find other ways to get involved in going and taking advantage of something like you mentioned, heart, which is a pro bono clinic that students can be a part of, or they may find other things that are specifically tailored to their organization. So I commend you for putting something out there, starting something new, and being willing to jump into it with such gusto as a way to be able to allow for others to build and maintain community with individuals like themselves, because I think that's really important. Now you're working through this program. You're moving into your 2nd year within the PT program. That second year of the PT program brings more opportunities for clinical experiences, and then you'll have an even broader experiences in your 3rd year. As you're looking toward the future and now that you have a year under your belt, what are you thinking of the future? And do you have ideas of where you may end up in a few years and where you want to be as a physical therapist?

Nia Ahart [00:12:48]: So I'm really excited about the future. Going into the program, I was set. I thought that I knew exactly what I wanted to do. I thought that I wanted to be with the NBA or NFL sports team. And now they say that it changes a lot during school, and I have definitely I was like, oh, I know what I'm doing. But I am definitely more open minded about what I wanna go into. I still wanna stay in the sports realm. It's not the NFL NBA dreams are not off the table, but I think I'm more open to having, like, a outpatient or specific path.

Nia Ahart [00:13:19]: That's where I am at now, but we'll see. We have 2 more years and 4 more clinicals. But I just think the exposure to different realms of patients and pathways in the program is great. And it just allows you to explore things that you've never you would have never thought to go into or explore yourself. So I'm very appreciative, and honestly, I currently work at a hospital as a tech, so having that experience on top of the clinical experiences and heart as well has really opened my eyes to different pathways in the field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:53]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way, things that have helped you to be successful. As you look back to your 1st year, as you're moving into your 2nd year, what are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education in general? Doesn't mean that someone's considering physical therapy per se, but just in general for graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer those individuals that would help them find success sooner?

Nia Ahart [00:14:20]: I think for me, the biggest thing is to not stress yourself out. I tell all the incoming 1st years that are freaking out about the process, I think it it'll all work itself out. Whatever happened, it's meant for you. I also think the big thing that has helped me is that I had a buddy. We have accountability buddies, and I happen to live with mine. So she is amazing. But just to have somebody and a group of friends that you can bounce ideas off of and go through the study process and learn material different way is really big. And also, finding out how you learn, because everyone learns differently.

Nia Ahart [00:14:53]: And with graduate school, it's important to find that on early on, so you're not kinda behind the boat when you're what ways you learn best and what time schedule works best for you for studying. Some people can study all day. Some people need select time. I think that is really key for success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:17]: Well, Nia, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today. Thank you for what you're doing to be able to bring students together here at the University of Michigan Flint. But also thank you for the work that you're doing out in the community and and engaging with individuals. And I truly wish you all the best.

Nia Ahart [00:15:33]: Thank you, and thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

View Details

In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, we sit down with Dr. Emma Davis, an accomplished academic who traversed an unconventional path in higher education. With an undergraduate degree in English and journalism, a master's in liberal studies, and a PhD in dance, Dr. Davis embodies the transformative journey of higher education. This blog post expands on her insightful conversation, charting her unique pathway and offering valuable advice for aspiring graduate students.

Following the Academic Passion

From Undergrad to Master's Degree

Dr. Emma Davis first discovered her passion for higher education during her undergraduate years at the University of Michigan Flint, where she majored in English and journalism while minoring in dance. Realizing that she wanted to work in higher education, she observed her faculty members’ academic journeys, which often included a master's degree in fine arts (MFA).

Initially aspiring for an MFA herself, Dr. Davis encountered setbacks during the application process. However, her mentor, Dr. Loren Friesen, guided her toward the Master of Liberal Studies with a concentration in theater culture at the University of Michigan Flint. This program provided her with a foundation in American culture, critical thinking, and an appreciation for cross-disciplinary academic dialogues.

The Leap to a Doctorate

After completing her master's degree, Dr. Davis faced another pivotal decision – choosing a PhD program. Despite her broad academic background, she opted for a doctorate in dance, recognizing that a specialized degree would align more closely with her goals in higher education. Her thorough research revealed only a handful of PhD programs in dance across the United States, eventually leading her to Texas Women's University’s low-residency program, allowing her the flexibility to continue teaching while pursuing her doctorate.

Navigating Unconventional Paths

Adapting During COVID-19

Dr. Davis began her PhD in June 2020, amidst the global pandemic. The low-residency program she enrolled in typically required a mix of in-person and online learning. However, the pandemic pushed her cohort to adapt to fully online coursework. Weekly virtual classes supplemented their independent research, fostering a strong sense of community and support that might not have existed in a traditional setting.

Embracing Nontraditional Approaches

Reflecting on the shifts and adaptations, Dr. Davis emphasized the value of nontraditional educational paths. Her experiences highlight that flexibility and resilience are key to thriving in graduate school, especially for those juggling multiple roles and responsibilities

Insights and Practical Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Preparation and Self-Discovery

Transitions between undergraduate, master's, and doctoral programs can be challenging. Dr. Davis advises students to see each degree as a stepping stone, allowing life and academic experiences to shape their educational journey. She stresses the importance of taking time to reflect and recover between programs, enabling students to assimilate and grow from each step.

Integration of Diverse Experiences

Dr. Davis leverages her multifaceted academic background in her current role as an instructor, blending dance, literature, research, and cultural analysis. Her unique educational path allows her to enrich her teaching with a broad perspective, benefiting her students and the academic community.

Advice for Prospective Grad Students

For students considering graduate education, Dr. Davis recommends a deeply personal approach. Listen to your heart, conduct thorough research, and visualize your path. Understand the commitment involved, including potential financial and mental health challenges. Above all, knowing why you are pursuing a graduate degree can provide the motivation and clarity needed to succeed.

Dr. Emma Davis’ journey epitomizes the essence of "Victors in Grad School." Her story not only showcases the transformative power of graduate education but also serves as a guide for students navigating their own academic paths. By embracing flexibility, conducting thorough research, and following one’s passion, prospective graduate students can set themselves on a successful and fulfilling academic journey. If you're contemplating your future in graduate education, reflect on Dr. Davis' insights and prepare to embark on your own path to success. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, work with you as you are contemplating, working on wherever you are in this journey of getting in, getting through, getting done with grad school. Every week, we talk about things that you can do to be able to find success in that graduate school journey. And you might be at the very beginning just starting to think about grad school, might be thinking about maybe this is the time, maybe this is the right opportunity, and you're ready to put in that application. You might have already put that application in and you're waiting on the offer, the acceptance, or you got accepted, now you're waiting to start or you're in the program itself. And looking at that light at the end of the tunnel, no matter how far off it is, wherever you are, it is a journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:06]: And there are things that you can learn at the beginning and wherever you are in this journey to be able to help you to be successful. And that's why every week, I love being able to have an opportunity to talk with you, to share with you different resources, people, and share their journeys with you as well. That's what this show is all about. It's all about helping you find success. And today we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Emma Davis is with us today. And doctor Davis has a undergraduate degree from the University of Michigan Flint, but she also has a master's degree from the University of Michigan Flint, but then she pivoted and went and got a PhD in dance. And it's a journey that we're gonna be talking about because it is truly a journey for her, different pathways, some probably twists and turns along the way that we will talk about as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:54]: And I'm really excited to have her share this journey with you and have her here today. Emma, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:01:59]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:00]: It's my pleasure having you here today. As I said, you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And at some point in that journey, you got that bachelor of arts degree in English and journalism, and you also got a dance minor. You're busy, you had, and then you decided and you had an opportunity to, after a little bit of time, you've made a decision to go and get your master's degree and get your master's degree in liberal studies with a concentration in theater culture. Also here at the University of Michigan Flint. Every person finds the the timing and figures that out for themselves about why it's the right time. Bring me back to that point. What made you decide at that point that after being out of your bachelor's degree that you were ready to make that jump into getting your master's degree?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:02:52]: When I was in undergrad, that was when I realized that I wanted to be working in higher education. So I looked at my faculty members and saw the pathways that they took in the field of dance. That was a master's of fine arts. And I had a lot of people encouraging me to apply to an MFA, which is a terminal degree in the arts, which means that's the last degree that you need to get. And so a lot of people were actually encouraging me to apply to Ann Arbor and I did and I made it through the finals and I did not get in. So that was sad. That was sort of actually my first attempt at grad school and it was not successful. And so I was sort of lost and a mentor, Doctor.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:03:38]: Loren Friesen, who used to be the chair of the theater department. He was also the program coordinator for the theater culture part of the master's of arts and liberal studies at U of M Flint, and he was familiar with my work as an English major. I also wrote for the Michigan Times on campus. I worked at the writing center as a peer tutor. I crossed over into the theater side a lot, taking some theater classes. And, yeah, Doctor. Friesen was like, hey, check out this master's in liberal studies program because I think you should actually be going on to a PhD because of your background in writing. And I was like, oh, okay.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:04:23]: And I was really eager to go to continue my education. It was like, I need to be doing something. I want to be moving forward. So yeah, I did the liberal studies program and I really enjoyed it. It was super refreshing conversation with people that wanted to be there and have critical thinking skills and read about things and talk about them in our society. And so I got this really great foundation in American culture from that. And, so I suppose you could say the gap was because I was finding my way and that's where it led me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:57]: It led you to that master's degree program. You got through that master's degree program. And then after finishing that you chose to go for a doctorate in dance. Again, different direction. You had the minor in undergrad of dance, and you were doing some teaching in dance. So there is that connection there, but your master's was within theater culture. So again, a little bit different. So talk to me about first, let's talk about what made you decide a doctorate in dance versus, say, a doctorate in theater or some other direction?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:05:39]: I mean, yeah, because I actually did consider other types of PhDs. I have, you know, sort of a diverse, broad background in arts humanities. And so, yeah, I thought what happens if I do a PhD in theater, performance studies was another route to think about. The other faculty were sort of sharing with me. But dance has always been my thing. I mean, the reason I got an English degree well, of course, I like writing and reading, but I I thought it was the smarter thing to do than getting a degree in dance which is funny to get an English degree too but that's what I love, following my passion. And so I just did what I do. And I knew I wanted to work in higher ed, and so I just sort of thought about it strategically.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:06:20]: Yeah. I could. There are a whole lot of schools that have PhDs in theater. There's a number of schools that have PhDs in performance studies, but I thought, no, now is the time to do the focused part. Right? So if I'm trying to get a job teaching within a dance department, or being a direct being a director of a dance program is my ultimate goal. So I need the thing that says dance in it now at this point. And I just I researched PhD in dance programs. There's only about 4 or 5 in the United States.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:06:52]: One of those is low residency, and so that's where I ended up.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:56]: I was just gonna ask you that question because you chose to go to Texas Women's University, and it's a long ways away from Flint. So I didn't know what went through your mind as you were contemplating those 4 or 5 programs that offered that PhD in dance.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:07:12]: Right. So I had the choice between going away or doing the low residency and the I see it as having more flexibility within your life to do low residency. But I wasn't opposed to going away because, honestly, I didn't really go away for undergrad or masters because I'm a native Michigander. And I did apply to schools where you would have to live there. I had an interview at Ohio State University, but low residency, it just worked for my lifestyle better. The other part of it was that I was already lecturing, teaching at U of M Flint. I actually applied before the pandemic. Right? And so we as how long have I been teaching then? Maybe 7 or 8 years, and I'm one of 2 dance faculty on campus.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:08:00]: So I'm a part of building this program, right, and it's my income. And it's still the thing I wanna be doing, teaching in higher ed. I wanted to keep my life, but also continue my education. So that led me to low residency. And, I mean, we can talk about what happened when COVID hit, but still low residency.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: Let's definitely talk about that because you definitely were going through the program during the pandemic. So talk to me about that transition for yourself and what that did for you or made you have to do as you had to pivot yourself in regards to having to learn in a different way?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:08:41]: I received my acceptance letter December 2019, and the way that the low residency program is, it begins in summer semester. So I was accepted in December, and then I started June 2020. So it was just a couple months after everything closed. So for people that are interested in low residency programs, the way that it's still doing this now, but I was just of course in that unique situation, but the way it's set up is you're on campus for a month in the summer. In my program, it's 3 summers. And then in the fall, you go to campus for a 1 week intensive. And then in the winter, which they actually call spring because it's in Texas, it's also another 1 week. So it's a 1 week, a month, and then a 1 week.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:09:28]: And what happens in between that is independent work. You're working on your research, you're working on the coursework, you're submitting your assignments online, and that's all cool. But what happened with my cohort was we couldn't meet in person. People didn't wanna fly across the country. We had somebody in Hawaii in our cohort too, so it was a lot for them to be traveling during COVID. So we kind of did the traditional online class thing where we met once a week and had an hour conversation and still did all of our work. But as far as adjusting, So we were So we were sort of supporting each other still through the coursework and the readings, which I'm not actually sure if that would be there if we had done the traditional way. So that's, like, my theme is everything nontraditional has been working for me.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:10:27]: So if you feel like you're a nontraditional person, just know that it can work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:31]: So let's talk about transitions because every time you go to a different type of degree, there are transitions. And the way that you're taught as a undergraduate student is different than the way that you're taught as a master's student, is different than the way that you're gonna be taught as a PhD student, and you have to adjust at each phase to be able to learn in a little bit different way. We talked about the fact that you had to learn in a little bit different way also when you're in the middle of a pandemic. But talk to me about what you had to do first in that master's grade, then in the PhD to be able to set yourself up in each of those different opportunities that you had to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to be able to maintain that success throughout each of those journeys toward the end point, the end of the degrees.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:11:19]: Yeah. So the transition between degrees or perhaps some of that's happening while you're working on the degree as well. For me, I saw each degree as a stepping stone. And so maybe except for my original undergrad. No, I, I take that back. It's all stepping stones, right? You're working towards something. And at that time, I thought I was working towards being a journalist. And then I had some interviews and I was like, you know what? I'm not a 9 to 5 job kind of person.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:11:48]: Like, I'm an artist. I'm an educator. I'm not sitting at a desk 9 to 5. Not that that's what journalists do all day. So I think what I'm trying to say is that I had a little bit of life experience in between each degree. I know there's some people that you just go back to back, you're done with your undergrad and, oh, now you're going to start your master's the next year. And then, oh, now you're doing your doctorate or your PhD. That might work for some fields, maybe more STEM fields or traditional career oriented fields going into nursing or something.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:12:22]: But I don't know. I'm not in those fields, so I can't say totally. But I think that taking time just for a moment to sort of recover from, you know, to sort of close out one experience and then live life with that experience and let that evolve into the next thing that you're seeking and let your degree help you, that journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:47]: You got that master's degree, you moved on to the PhD. Now you've been out for a little bit of time and you're still teaching. As you look back at the different steps that you took from undergrad to masters, to PhD, and you look at what you're doing today and the work that you're doing today, how do you feel that you're pulling from all of that different education to inform the work that you're doing as an instructor now?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:13:13]: I suppose at this point, I see it all as a process of emergence. Each part contributes to the whole experience. It's almost like a tripod in a sense, my undergrad experience, my master's degree, my PhD experience, and wouldn't be where I am without each of those. There's a lot going on there, right? How do we bring dance, English, research, writing, analysis, culture all together? Honestly, it makes a lot of sense to me. I'm a practicing artist. I still perform. I perform with Detroit Dance Collective as a company member. I perform with Tunde Olani Ram as a backup dancer.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:13:56]: And so honestly, it's about experience is really important, and it's taking each of those experiences into what you're doing. I noticed when I got to my PhD program, there's a lot of dancers and a lot of them have MFAs. And an MFA is more of a studio based degree. You're creating creative work in the studio. Your thesis is typically performance of some sort. And you do some research and there's a whole artistic process that you learn in an MFA program. But there wasn't a lot of writing and there wasn't a lot of reading. And I saw a lot of my peers and my cohort struggle with the reading and writing that time because it really trained me how to read and how to write and how to analyze things.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:14:51]: And then I was really appreciative that I had my experience in the liberal studies program because I had such a foundation in the idea of culture. And I also was allowed to sort of explore a couple of things that interested me. And that's when I really discovered feminism, right, in grad school. And so that really informs a lot of my research as well. So where am I at today? My dissertation is about the experience of dance and how it builds community for social change. So I really think about how dance is a vehicle to bring people together and how that coming together is its own process of emergence and how those moving together intentionally towards a purpose can help us change our thinking, change our behavior, change the way that we move in the world as a society. So that's where it's led me. And those are now the ideas that I take forward into my teaching.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:53]: Now, as you look back at the experiences that you had in your own graduate school experiences and you think about other students, whether they be students going into the arts or some other area, what tips would you have for those individuals that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Emma Davis [00:16:12]: I mean, it's deeply personal, I think, first of all, because this is something that stays with you forever if you wanted to, but you always have your degree. And so, I mean, my non practical but practical advice is listen to your heart, follow your heart, do what seems right in the moment, sort of an intuition thing, but also do your research. Think about it, sit with it, research schools, visualize what you might be doing there. Talk to people. Think about why you're doing it. It's a commitment. A lot of people, I mean, honestly, a lot of people, right, have you could go into debt. You could have a mental health crisis.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:16:51]: It's it can be stressful. It can be very rewarding, but also be prepared and know why you're doing it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:57]: Well, Emma, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today and sharing the experiences that you had in the different graduate degrees that you were able to receive yourself, and I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Emma Davis [00:17:10]: Thank you so much for your interest. It's been a pleasure talking to you today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Graduate education is often seen as a pivotal point in advancing one’s career and personal development. The journey, while arduous, offers substantial rewards and opportunities. In a recent episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Cynthia McCurren shared her extensive experience in the field of nursing education, highlighting key elements that influence success in graduate school. Below, we distill some of her most valuable insights and advice for anyone considering or currently navigating the journey of graduate education.

The Spark: Recognizing the Need for Advanced Education

Dr. McCurren began her educational journey at the University of Missouri in Columbia, where she studied nursing. After working in the field for seven years, she realized that advancing her education was necessary for her career development and personal growth. She was motivated by a combination of intrinsic desire for knowledge and the practical need to meet the academic requirements for a faculty position in higher education.

For many, the decision to pursue graduate education often stems from a similar dual motivation. Whether it’s the allure of expanding one’s knowledge base or the necessity to advance in a chosen profession, identifying the underlying reasons for this pursuit can provide a strong foundation and a clear sense of purpose.

Balancing Life and Education: A Careful Juggle

One of the prevalent themes in Dr. McCurren’s narrative is the challenge of balancing life responsibilities with academic pursuits. Being a married mother with young children, she had to consider factors such as geographic convenience, childcare, and financial stability when deciding where to continue her education.

Dr. McCurren’s situation is not unique. Many graduate students face similar challenges. She advises a realistic approach: accept that life will never be without its complications and that there’s no perfect time to return to school. Instead, focus on making the conditions manageable.

Key Tips:

• Seek Convenience: Opting for a geographically convenient school can alleviate commuting stress and time constraints.
• Plan Financially: Look for scholarships, grants, and part-time work opportunities to reduce financial burdens.
• Utilize Support Systems: Rely on family or social networks for childcare and other support to focus on academic responsibilities.

Embracing Research and Intrinsic Motivation

During her master's program, Dr. McCurren discovered an unexpected passion for research, which significantly shaped her career trajectory. The excitement of conducting original research and the desire to contribute new knowledge to the field of nursing propelled her forward, eventually leading her to pursue a PhD at the University of Kentucky.

Intrinsic motivation is crucial for success in graduate school. Pursuing an advanced degree simply for external rewards, such as job security or increased salary, may not sustain long-term commitment and enthusiasm. Dr. McCurren emphasizes the importance of finding genuine interest and value in your field of study.

Key Tips:

1. Find Your Passion: Engage deeply with your subject to uncover areas that genuinely excite you.
2. Commit to the Journey: Let intrinsic motivation drive you through challenging courses and research projects.

Overcoming Academic Hurdles: Discipline and Dedication

Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate study requires a high level of self-discipline and dedication. Dr. McCurren stressed treating studies with the seriousness of a job. Setting aside dedicated time each day for study and ensuring a disciplined approach can help maintain academic success.

Moreover, understanding the value of every course, even those that seem tangential to your primary interests, can enrich your educational experience. For instance, Dr. McCurren highlighted the unexpected benefits of courses in philosophy and language proficiency during her PhD.

Key Tips:

Structured Schedule:

• Create and adhere to a consistent study schedule to manage time effectively.
• Open-Minded Learning: Approach every course with an open mind and a willingness to discover its value.

Advice for Aspiring Graduate Students

Dr. McCurren’s experience offers practical advice for those considering graduate education. Talking to colleagues, seeking career coaching, and consulting with both educational institutions and employers are pivotal steps for a well-informed decision. Early planning and not postponing the pursuit of higher education can mitigate challenges and set the stage for a fruitful academic journey.

Key Tips:

• Early Preparation: Avoid waiting for the ‘perfect time’ to pursue further education.
• Consult Widely: Seek advice from a variety of sources to make informed decisions.

The path to graduate education is fraught with challenges, but with the right mindset and preparation, it can lead to immense personal and professional growth. Dr. Cynthia McCurren’s journey underscores the importance of intrinsic motivation, disciplined study habits, and strategic planning. By embracing these principles, aspiring graduate students can navigate their educational journeys with clarity and purpose, ultimately achieving their academic and career goals. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being on this journey with you. This opportunity for us to talk every week about the opportunity to go and continue your education, but to do it in the right way and to prepare yourself for the things ahead. And there are things that you can do. There are things you can do right now, even before you step foot in that classroom, before you even decide to apply, to start thinking about your ultimate success in going through this journey. And that's why this podcast exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: I bring you different people every week that have gone through different experiences that have led them to getting that graduate degree, to being successful in that graduate pathway for themselves. And they have done it and you can too. That's why every week we bring you those people so that you can hear them, learn from them and be able to go from there to be able to add some tools to your toolbox and be able to then prepare yourself even more for the application and for the journey itself. We've got another great guest with us today. Doctor Cynthia McKiernan is with us today. She is the Dean of the School of Nursing at the University of Michigan Flint. I'm really excited to have her here and for sharing her journey with you. Cynthia, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:01:37]: It's my delight. Look forward to sharing my experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:40]: Now I know that you started your journey University of Missouri in Columbia, and you ended up going there, you decided to study nursing, you ended up graduating from that program worked for a number of years. And at some point during that time, you were out in the workforce, you were working as a nurse, and there had to been some kind of inkling, something that made you decide that it was time, it was time to continue my your education. Talk to me about that moment, that spark, that thing that made you decide, I wanna go further.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:02:15]: Actually, I I have made this decision to go to graduate school twice in my life. So once to pursue my master's of science in nursing and then ultimately to pursue my PhD in nursing. But my first decision to do the master's degree came about 7 years after I had completed my baccalaureate degree, after I had had several years of clinical experience, had done some part time teaching in a baccalaureate program, the clinical education component. And I became very aware that if I wanted to continue with having an opportunity to serve as a faculty member in higher education, I was going to have to advance my degrees. So that was one reason. But the second reason was I was just highly motivated, had a lot of intrinsic motivation to want to advance my knowledge. I wanted to have a greater understanding of underlying mechanisms from a pathophysiological perspective, pharmacological, etcetera, behind the conditions in which I found myself working with as a nurse. And I also had great admiration for those nurses who I had the honor of working with who had that kind of knowledge.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:03:26]: And it was like, I wanna grow up and be like you sort of a phenomena. So I knew that by going back and advancing my education, I could attain that greater breadth of knowledge and also attain advanced clinical skills so that I could have different kinds of clinical positions within the care delivery system. So that was my real motivation. While I was pursuing my master's degree at the University of Missouri in Columbia, I finished the requirements to be what was a title called a clinical nurse specialist for adult nursing. But surprisingly, I became quite bitten, if you will, by the excitement of research. In my master's program, we have a lot of intensive focus on learning how to be a researcher. We had to do an independent original research project for our thesis. We had a fair amount of statistical requirements in that degree program, and I actually conducted an original study and published it.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:04:29]: So all that was very exciting for me. Ultimately, I did secure a position in a university that was a research one level university. By then, I had moved out of the state of Missouri and was living in Louisville, Kentucky, and I was working at the University of Louisville. And I knew that in order to keep a faculty position, number 1, I had to have a PhD. So part of it was just knowing if I wanted to continue in that kind of a faculty capacity, I would need my PhD. But I also worked with colleagues that I respected and I wanted to be like them. Again, I'm motivated by what my colleagues are able to do, and they were very experienced in executing their ability as a researcher in addition to being a faculty member. And I wanted to have parity with them.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:05:19]: I wanted to be able to contribute to new knowledge for nursing and understand how to do that in ways more advanced than what I'd gotten in my master's program. So that was my real drive to go back and get my PhD.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:34]: So talk to me about I know that you like I said, you got your bachelor's degree and your master's degree at the same institution. It probably had some options and you could have chosen to go somewhere else and get a different experience. So let's first talk about the master's degree. And what made you decide to stay at the same institution versus going somewhere

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:05:54]: else? Well, I think I'm not unlike many individuals, and I'll just say particularly women, probably. Because by this time, I was married. I did have a child. I had to think about the security of my husband's employment and where he worked, and I had to think about having resources available to me to for childcare. At so geographical convenience was part of why I chose to go back to the University of Missouri Columbia. And at the same time, I would never tell anyone, including I didn't tell myself that that's your only choice. So if it hadn't been known for its quality and its rigor, I wouldn't have gone there. So I I think I got all of it in one.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:06:44]: It was convenient geographically for me. It was about a 45 minute commute, so that was possible. And I lived in an area where I had some family members that could help me with child care as well as having child care established before I started back. And then, as I said, my husband could keep his employment, and we had secure income, and that was my choice for the University of Missouri Columbia.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:08]: Now you ended up deciding, you said you got those experiences in research that kind of pushed you further, and you wanted to go further the talk to me about the decision there because you ended up going to the University of Kentucky. Again, there are other programs across the nation. You were going to this program was away from where you went for your bachelor's and master's. So what were you looking for in that PhD? And what made you decide to ultimately attend the University of Kentucky?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:07:45]: So one of the things that surprised me in my master's program, I didn't expect that my population of interest that I was doing my research on is I turned to geriatrics, and I didn't expect that going in. It just was an interest that developed. So when you are seeking your PhD, you're looking for a place where there are individuals who have like expertise within the graduate program so that they'll be good mentors and can help you with that. So I was fortunate in that once again, by the time I was seeking my PhD, which was about 5 years after I'd completed my master's, by then I had a second child. So and I was living in a state of where I had no family in Kentucky. As I said, we had moved to Louisville, and I needed to think about geographic convenience as well. Once again, my husband had a new position in Kentucky, and he traveled Monday through Friday. So I basically was like a single parent during the week.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:08:41]: So I needed to think about managing how I would go back and do this given my personal circumstances as well. So, actually, when I I mentioned that with the master's degree, you wanna ensure that you go to a program that's got quality and rigor and so forth, and there was not a PhD program in the state of Kentucky until the program opened at the University of Kentucky Kentucky in Lexington, And I was actually in the 1st cohort of nursing students. So I might've had some trepidation about that because it didn't have a reputation, if you will, as a program for getting a nursing PhD. However, the university itself and the graduate program has a very strong reputation. And of course, all PhD programs fall under the graduate school. And so there's lots of obligation to meet the expected criteria. So I had confidence because of that. And then there were individuals that did gerontological research.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:09:39]: And so that was another plus for me. I had, a colleague that lived in Louisville that also was going to be in this cohort so we could share transportation. Cost was a big problem for me at that time. So being able to share the cost of commuting, which was about an hour in this case, and also in state tuition was important for me at that point. So I really was grateful when a PhD program opened in the state that I could attend, and that was that was, a lot of it. And I was able to continue some part time employment with the University of Louisville because they certainly encouraged me to go back and get the doctoral degree. I was able to figure out my parenting responsibilities and have childcare and then have someone to commute with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:25]: Now for each of these opportunities, these experiences that you had in graduate education, you had to make transitions. And the way that you are taught as a undergraduate student is different than the way you're taught as a master's student, is different than what you're taught as a PhD student. There's transitions amongst all of those, and you have to be able to set yourself up to be able to find success. So and you were able to find success, you've gone through those different programs. What did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success as you entered into these different programs and different experiences and different institutions? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school experience?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:11:07]: I think the biggest focus I needed to have was self discipline. And I had to think about going to school like a job, if you will, in that if you have a job, you have to clock in at 8 o'clock, and you clock out at 5 o'clock, whatever or whatever your situation is. So I had to think about reserving time every day as if my studying and my success and my academic endeavor was like my job. And that was very it was it it's tempting if someone's not there. You don't have a task that you have to finish for your employer or whatever. It's it's tempting to be distracted, but you can't be. You have to really put your effort for it. The other thing is that sometimes we have to take courses that would they just don't appeal to us, And we're just not interested in them.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:11:54]: And it's very hard to focus or discipline yourself to want to study that. So I tried very hard to make sure that I really appreciated every course I was taking and strove to understand why it was valuable. So I always say, take your blinders off, you know, but keep your mind open to why you're taking a particular course. I'll just give you an example. One of the courses that you were required to take in your PhD program was a philosophy course. And I just could not get into that esoteric kind of a realm and and had a hard time figuring out how it was gonna help me in what I was pursuing trying to do. So I just I would share in dialogue with my colleagues and my cohort, and we really tried to learn to find the value of why we had to take that particular course. Another course that I had to take in my PhD program was I had to show proficiency in reading another language.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:12:44]: And I thought, why am I doing this? You know, it felt like a checkbox. But at the end of the day, there was value in that too. And I had to, again, just discipline myself to appreciate why I was being asked to do what I was asked to do. And then as I said, disciplining my time. The other thing was controlling how much time I worked, my actual employment. And I knew I couldn't continue to work 40 hours a week and also be successful in graduate school. So in my master's and my doctoral program, both, I worked very part time. I was very lucky that I was able to apply for both of my degrees.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:13:22]: I was able to get a federal nurse scholarship, and it completely it was a traineeship, and it paid for all my tuition. I never paid a dime for either one of my graduate degrees in terms of tuition. And even in my master's program, I got $250 a month, I remember as a stipend as well. So I was very, very fortunate for that. But any way that you can seek scholarships or opportunities to help offset the cost of tuition, that takes a great burden off of you in terms of your worry or your ultimate debt, and also how many hours you have to work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]: Now I know throughout your career, you've had a lot of opportunities to be able to work your way up in regards to leading different nursing endeavors at different institutions. You've been an interim dean. You've been deans at other institutions. You've even been the president of the Michigan Association of the College of Nursing. You've gotten very involved at the national level with the Association For Nursing as well. You've been very involved in the profession itself, and you've worked with many students along the way at different levels. You've engaged with different students at different levels and probably seen students come in and struggle and have their own challenges. As you're working with students, as you're working with the faculty that you work with now and they're working with students, what are some of the biggest challenges that you're seeing with students entering into graduate study right now? And what would you say to them?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:14:52]: Well, some of what I was just alluding to, I I think one of the biggest challenges is always the cost and how much they continue to try to work while they're trying to do their graduate education. So I think you have to be very thoughtful about intentionally recognizing what your challenges are going to be once you decide that you wanna go back and pursue your education. And there's no reason to fool yourself that they're not gonna be a problem or that they're gonna go away. You have to be intentional about planning for how you're gonna manage them. So I don't think I'm unlike many individuals who come in to advance their education in nursing. Even though there's been a number of years ago that I did my graduate work, students still have to worry about those same issues. Most of us, by the time in nursing that we're pursuing graduate education, we've started families. We have children.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:15:39]: We have those obligations. Our lifestyle and our commitments are already dependent on our income. So we have to think about how are we going to manage that? I think, how do you do that? Well, being intentional about what it is you're going to pursue. You don't go back and pursue a graduate degree just because you think it'll help your work schedule. Like, if I have a graduate degree, I can work Monday through Friday and not have 247 obligations, which many nurses in different kinds of staff positions have. So that can't be your driving force. You need to work with your employer. I think it's very wise to have some career coaching, become aware of what are the possibilities in nursing education and in my career, and what should I pursue that are really helped me get there.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:16:24]: And then in that coaching or, working with a consultant is what what are ways that I can do that, and how can I make it manageable to fit my lifestyle or or my commitments that I have? And also those individuals can begin to direct you towards ways that you can get sources for scholarships or loans that are feasible. And there are quite a few in nursing and particularly right now at the state and the federal level that they're trying to draw individuals into the profession, that they're trying to create financial support. So those are some things I think are really important for them to think about. The other thing is don't put off seeking your graduate education. Many of us keep waiting for the perfect time. So when we first graduate, we think, oh, I'm I'm done. I don't wanna go back to school, but be thoughtful. Be thoughtful early before you have some of the commitments that you have, if at all possible.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:17:18]: And if you look at other graduate degrees in healthcare disciplines, they're going straight from their baccalaureate into their graduate work. So whether it's a physician or a physical therapist or whatever, they're going usually going straight on into their advancing their education, whereas nurses enter professionally at the baccalaureate level. So it's a bigger challenge for us to figure that out. But if you keep waiting for the perfect time in your life when you have no obligations, that doesn't happen either. It's always something that makes it not the perfect time. So just try to think about if it's not perfect, then how will I make it so that it's manageable? And I can pursue this full time. I can probably pursue it part time if I need to. Consultation from your educational program that you choose and consultation from your employer about how they'll support you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:06]: You know, one of the other questions that I guess that I would have is that, as I said, you've had a lot of different experiences. You've worked at a lot of different institutions. You currently are at the University of Michigan Flint. You are the dean of the School of Nursing. Talk to me about all of your graduate work and the experiences that you've had in your career, and how that coalesces into the work that you do on a daily basis as a dean now at the University of Michigan Flint, and how those past experiences, that past graduate education is forming your direction in regards to the way in which you are leading and pushing the nursing programs at the University of Michigan Flint to be different, to grow, to learn, and to be able to be better aligned for student success?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:18:55]: So I think there's no better experience one can have in life than to have the lived experience that you're trying to help others go through. And so one of the things I'm grateful for, even though my trajectory through my career has been a little slower than might have been ideal, but I also lived each experience that I think my students have for the most part. I know what it's like, as I've already described, to get my baccalaureate degree, decide to pursue graduate education, to realize what was gonna be difficult about it, to still want to do it all, wanted to be a mom, wanted to be a wife, wanted to work. I wanted to be the best nurse possible, wanted to be successful. So all those things made me understand and appreciate the stress that sometimes cause. Things happen as you go along, and I certainly had a lot of personal things happen to me that sometimes made me feel like I wasn't gonna be able to achieve where I was trying to get to. And so that gave me a lot of internal resilience, not to wear that word out, and to understand what it's like to have these really big setbacks in your life and how you pick yourself up and keep going. So I've had that.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:20:04]: We learn so much from adversity is what I'm trying to say. So I think I can help students from that perspective. I haven't had it smooth sailing. It hasn't been a faculty, I've also been a very novice faculty member. I've been the faculty member that didn't have their doctoral degree yet. I've been the one who went back to school while I was trying to teach and get my doctoral degree. I know what it's like to go through the journey to be a faculty member and what it takes to continue to strive and meet your students' expectations. The other thing is that I've mentioned this earlier that this idea of intrinsic motivation, you should never try to go back to school because I have to do it and keep my job.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:20:49]: So if I had entered into my PhD, for example, not really wanting to do it, but just having to do it in order to keep my position, I don't think I could have been as successful as I was in that particular pursuit. So being intrinsically motivated, I would avoid thinking I just need the letters as a credential, and I just want to do this quick, easy, and cheap because that will make you feel like an imposter then. You really have to realize that it's up to you to get the most out of it that you can. So I tell that to students that I work with. I think that most of the time when I'm working with individuals that are considering whether or not to advance their education, I would say they don't know what they don't know. So I'm gonna go back to how important it is when you're thinking that that might be what you wanna do. Take the time to talk to people who can give you guidance, to consult with you, to coach you, help you think through where do you wanna go in your career. There's nothing more disheartening than to pursue a graduate degree and achieve it and then not use it or not want to use it.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:21:50]: It's not what you wanted to do, and that does happen. And so I would want to avoid that. Like I said, it's not just the letters behind your name. It's not just the credential. It's really feeling like you've achieved the competencies that you need to do what you wanna do or that you can at least scaffold for how you'll continue to be a lifelong learner.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:09]: All great points. I really appreciate you sharing that and for sharing your journey today. Now, I guess as you think about any student, whether it be a student going into nursing or any field, if as they're thinking about graduate school and they're thinking this might be the right time, this might be the opportunity that I've been waiting for, what are some tips that you might offer to those individuals that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:22:36]: Well, I don't wanna seem like a broken record, but talking to your colleagues, your friends that you work with, those who have thought, I don't wanna get a graduate degree. I have no need to. You know, find out what's behind it. What's behind that? Why do they think they don't want to? Those who have pursued it, those who pursued it successfully and felt like it made a difference for them, as well as those who pursued it and thought it was a waste of time, if that would be the case. I guess what I'm trying to say is learn from others who've had experience. Of course, you hope that if it's something you really want to do, you want to get yourself around those who can show you the positive side of pursuing the education and can show you the positive outcome of having advanced education. I think anyone who's unhappy with advancing their education in any area, whether nursing or otherwise, it's because they didn't put the right thought or research or preparation prior to going into the choice and then making sure that you can have a disciplined commitment to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:38]: Well, Cynthia, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing all of this advice, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. Cynthia McCurren [00:23:46]: Thank you. What a great opportunity. Hope I made a difference for someone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:49]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Welcome to Victors in Grad School, where we delve into the intricate journeys of students, alumni, and experts navigating the rigorous paths of graduate education. Each episode captures the essence of what it means to strive for and achieve success in grad school. This week, we were thrilled to have Elias Fanous, an attorney based in Flint, join us to share his unique journey from undergraduate studies to a flourishing legal career.

Finding That Initial Spark

During his time at the University of Michigan Flint, Elias always had law school at the back of his mind. Nonetheless, like many students, he found himself meandering through core classes, uncertain of the next steps. His journey took a pivotal turn when he encountered Dr. Albert Price in a Constitutional Law prep course. This class not only rekindled his interest in law but also clarified his career aspirations. Thanks to the unwavering support from Dr. Price and other faculty members like Dr. Joseph Rami and Derwin Monroe, Elias started contemplating graduate school more seriously.

Navigating Post-Undergraduate Uncertainty

Post-graduation, Elias opted to work in his family’s convenience store business. However, the desire to pursue law reemerged. The tipping point came one late night during a grueling third shift. Tired and seeking more significant opportunities, Elias decided to apply to Cooley Law School. The decision wasn’t immediate or easy due to concerns about potential debt and lifestyle changes. Nevertheless, seeing his cousin Alexandra’s success as a Cooley graduate validated his choice.

The Grad School Transition

The Initial Hurdles

Transitioning into law school wasn’t a walk in the park. Elias soon realized that his undergraduate study techniques wouldn’t suffice. The rigorous coursework and Socratic teaching method at Cooley demanded a change in his approach towards studying. It was a humbling experience, especially when he found himself unprepared for impromptu questions in class.

Developing Effective Study Strategies

Elias began to tweak his learning style each semester, taking advantage of tutorials, class outlines, and connecting with upper-level students. The continuous adjustments and improved study techniques eventually culminated in consistently better grades. "If I would have studied like this during undergrad, my GPA would have been much higher," he reflects.

Finding Leadership and Balance

Embracing Leadership Roles

In addition to academics, Elias immersed himself in the student community. He started as a senator in the Student Bar Association, gradually moving up to become the Student Body President for the Lansing campus. Engaging with diverse student leaders and faculty helped him develop problem-solving skills and a solid professional network.

The Impact on Career

While leading various campus initiatives, Elias honed his ability to balance responsibilities, a skill that proved crucial in his legal career. The relationships built during these times opened doors in his professional life, including landing his first office space through connections made via Dean Don LaDuke. These experiences taught Elias to handle practical aspects of law efficiently, preparing him for the demands of a legal career.

The Real-World Application of Education

Professional Success and Community

Impact Today, Elias is entrenched in the legal community as a public defender and a burgeoning leader within the County Bar Association. He credits his law school experiences, especially the leadership roles, for equipping him with necessary tools to build a thriving practice. More importantly, Elias has carried forward the ethos of helping others, a lesson he learned from mentors in Genesee County.

Overcoming Personal Trials

Elias’s career is also marked by personal resilience. The support from his professional community was instrumental when he faced tragic personal loss during the early years of the COVID-19 pandemic. This collective camaraderie reaffirmed the importance of building strong, supportive networks.

Advice for Future Grad Students

Research and Goals

Elias emphasizes the importance of researching potential graduate schools thoroughly. Prospective students should look into the faculty's accomplishments, the school's reputation, and how well it aligns with their career goals. He advises making a comprehensive goal list to ascertain if a particular program meets their ambitions.

Cultivating Relationships

Building relationships with faculty and peers can make a significant difference. As Elias’s story illustrates, these connections can offer invaluable support and professional opportunities.

Elias Fanous’s journey underscores the multifaceted experience of graduate school. It’s about embracing change, cultivating relationships, and balancing various responsibilities. His story is a testament to the transformative power of education and community support, offering inspiration for current and future grad students aiming to carve out their paths in the professional world. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. You know, every week, I love being able to talk to you about the journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it is a journey. You may be at the very beginning just starting to think about, hey, do I wanna do this graduate school thing? You might be a little bit further along. You might have that application in your hands and sweating it a little bit, trying to figure out, am I gonna actually submit it? Or maybe you did submit it, and you're waiting on an answer. And you're trying to figure out, okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:44]: What do I have to do next? What do I have to do to prepare myself for this? What do I have to do once I'm in graduate school? And this podcast is here for you because every week, I love being able to talk to you, to work with you, to help you, to be able to identify things that you can do to find success in the upcoming graduate school journey that you're going to be on. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have had different experiences, that have gone through that graduate school experience and have been successful in that experience. And in the end, they've gotten their degree. They're out in they're out and being successful in that in that career that they wanted to get into, And they're here to help you, to give you some tools for that toolbox and help you to be able to know what you can do now to prepare yourself well. This week, we got another great guest with us. Elias Fanous is with us today. And Elias is a attorney in the Flint area working in a number of different areas. We'll talk a little bit about some of the work that he's done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:48]: He ended up getting his bachelor's degree from the University of Michigan Flint and then went on to get his law degree at Cooley Law School. Really excited to have him here to talk about his experience and to share that experience with you. Elias, thanks so much for being here today.

Elias Fanous [00:02:03]: Oh, thanks for having me. It's been I know we've been trying to do this for quite some time, so finally glad to be able to sit down and talk to you about my journey. Well, the

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: first thing that I always love to do is turn the clock back in time. And I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. And at some point in that journey, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to go on from your undergraduate degree and go to law school. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Elias Fanous [00:02:29]: I always had in the back of my mind law school. It was always something I wanted to do or thought I wanted to do. But when I got to U of M, Flint, I guess I was kinda like every student. You're not really sure what you're doing. You're taking your core classes and trying to figure out, okay, what's the next step for me? I was very fortunate. I knew I was gonna be a political science major, and I had probably, in my opinion, the best adviser that someone could have, especially at that time, and that was doctor Albert Price. And I believe he's retired now, but I must've had probably 4 or 5 classes with him. But in his Con Law prep course or however you wanna call it, that's when it really started clicking.

Elias Fanous [00:03:06]: You know, we're going through these monumental supreme court cases from the very beginning up until actually, we also talked because at that time, we had the 2,000 president election, the Chad Gate, if you will, Al Gore and president Bush. And we also saw a flip in the leadership of the Supreme Court with Justice Roberts being named as chief, calling the death of justice Rehnquist. But I think I would say it was in that class that really kinda reignited the fire. Let's go to law school. That's the goal. And in talking with Doctor. Price, and also had other faculty members that I talked to, doctor Joseph Rami in the history department, and then Derwin Monroe in the political science department as well, really kinda helped drive that next step. It didn't happen right away, but they definitely helped me get to that point.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:53]: As you said, it didn't happen right away. So you graduated from your undergraduate experience and you at some point, few years out, you make a decision. You make a decision, it's time. It's time to take that LSAT. It's time to go further, and it's time to start looking at law schools. And you end up attending Cooley Law School. So talk to me about that process for yourself. How did you end up finally deciding this is the time? But 2, how did you decide out of all of the law schools across the nation that you wanted to attend Cooley Law School?

Elias Fanous [00:04:26]: Sure. So, you know, I took the LSAT. I think it was the fall of my senior year at U of M Flint or my last semester or or whatnot, and and got my score back. It wasn't the best score in the world, but it wasn't the worst score in the world. I graduated, and I went immediately into work with my family. We had convenience stores. In fact, my dad still runs a convenience store. And I did that for a couple of years, and I kept going back in my head as do I wanna take on the debt? Because fortunate for me, when I was at U of M Flint, it wasn't as expensive as it is now.

Elias Fanous [00:04:55]: So I was able to pay my way through school in the early 2000. And so the big the big hurdle for me was, a, do I want that debt? Do I want that life? So I was going back and forth. I was working, and I think it was just somebody had called in sick, and I ended up having to work 3rd shift that night. So I'd already worked from 3 to 11, and I had to work from 11 to 7. And I said, you know what? This is enough is enough. It was in November. So went online and put in an application to Cooley, and I chose Cooley. That was the school I wanted to go to.

Elias Fanous [00:05:27]: A, I didn't have the best grades in the whole wide world when I was at U of M Flint, and that was just because I really didn't apply myself. And I'll tell you why I feel that way later. But my cousin, Alexandra, had gone to Cooley, and she had graduated and was already being successful. So I was like, woah, wait a minute. And at that time, Cooley was known as a school that makes you a lawyer, not teaches you the law, but prepares you to to actually practice law. So I applied and it was it was like December 26 or 27. It was right after Christmas. I got an email saying I had been accepted, and I could start in January 2009.

Elias Fanous [00:06:04]: So it took me about 4 days to find an apartment and start the financial paperwork. But, yeah, Cooley was where I wanted to go because I had family that had gone there, and I saw the product that Cooley was putting out at that time. And to me, that was really important because I wanted to learn to be a lawyer, not just learn the law.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:20]: Now I know you said that in your undergrad, you weren't happy with how you did as a student and how much you put into your education to be able to get out what you got out of it. And as you make that transition into any graduate program, it is a transition because you're taught in one way as an undergraduate student. And especially when you leave an undergraduate degree, you go out for a couple of years. You and then you have to get your mind back into school and figure out what not only it means to get back into school, but also what it means to start in a completely different way of learning. So talk to me about that transition for yourself because you were able to make that transition into law school. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in that transition? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through all of the 3 years in law school?

Elias Fanous [00:07:19]: So in undergrad, I just you would show up to class, listen to somebody lecture, you'd take some notes, and then you hope for the best if you will. That's kinda how I approached undergrad. I was very active at U of M Flint, especially with the Greek community. I was president of my fraternity at U of at the University of Michigan Flint twice, actually, and so I didn't focus as much on my studies. I did enough to get by. I got good grades. It just wasn't to where my standard should have been. And it was more of I don't wanna say I wasn't pushed to get to where I needed to be, but I didn't have the enthusiasm, I guess, is the way to kinda put it where okay.

Elias Fanous [00:07:53]: I went to class. I took notes and lectures, and I was already thinking, what am I gonna do tonight? What am I what's going on? When I got to law school, Cooley immediately kinda became readily available that or readily kinda knowledgeable that you gotta do something different. You can't just go and take notes and expect to to succeed. I had a intro to law class that, at the time, had everyone take, and it was a great wake up call because you try and study the way you used to study, and it just it wasn't enough. And then we had a Socratic method in law school where you get assigned these readings, you gotta do them, and then you just kinda sometimes kinda duck behind your laptop and pray the teacher doesn't pick on you to to recite a case. And, I mean, right away, I I was called on in my contract scores. 1st year, professor Otto Stockmeyer, who's like a contracts guru, and it was humbling. You think you know it, and then you don't really know it, and you don't really get what they're trying to give you out of the case law.

Elias Fanous [00:08:45]: And then it kinda shifted my focus. Alright. Let's really prepare. Let's really understand what the material is. And if you don't understand something, go get assistance. And then at that time, the student bar association at Cooley, which I was ultimately involved in, since how you and I had met, had these class outlines that you could buy, and there was tutorials and tutors. So I took advantage of that, those sort of things. And then I wanted to be a part of different organizations at Cooley and wanted to be a leader.

Elias Fanous [00:09:12]: I was a leader in undergrad with my fraternity in the Greek life, but I wasn't really a leader in the student body, if that makes sense. And I wanted to be that. And I knew that if I was gonna be successful in law school and do that, I had to make sure I maintained my grades and and got good grades. And I made a deal with my cousin, Alex, who, like I told you before, she had graduated earlier. He said, you can't do any of that stuff if you don't get good grades. So that 1st semester, the 1st term at law school, I kinda hunkered down, made sure I I was able to pull passing grades because you hear all the horror stories. You spend all this money in your 1st term, term at law school and 35% of the classes vanished after week 6 of the 2nd term when the grades finally get posted. So once I got decent grades that first term, I was able to kinda use what I had learned that 1st semester and then tweak my learning style to get better.

Elias Fanous [00:10:04]: And every semester, I would take what I learned and the good and the bad and the ugly because there are ugly times too and tweak it. And ultimately, my grades started going up higher than they've ever been before. And I thought to myself, I would have studied like this at undergrad. I would have had a much better GPA and probably would have gone maybe to a different school, but everything happens for a reason and Cooley truly prepared me. I know there's a lot of negative stuff nowadays about the law school. But when I was there, and I'll call it the heyday of Cooley because that's what it was. Let's be honest. It was a great place to learn and a great place to prepare yourself to be a lawyer.

Elias Fanous [00:10:39]: And as I kept applying those different strategies throughout every semester, it just got better and better. And then I found out that as I am embracing the different leadership roles, not only through the Student Bar Association, but through different various organizations on campus, My grades kept getting better because I made more connections. And if I didn't understand a specific theory of law, I can go talk to somebody in one of those other organizations or another professor to really help kinda hone that that knowledge in and then it worked amazingly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:07]: Now you talked about the fact that you did get involved in your law school experience. You found ways to find that niche for yourself, but also found ways to be able to become a leader for the entire campus, becoming the student body president for the Lansing campus of Cooley Law School. So talk to me about that experience because not every student will decide to get involved outside of that academic experience. What did that do for you? And what do you say to others that are thinking about graduate school in regard to doing that balance of school versus the out of class experiences?

Elias Fanous [00:11:43]: I look back at my time in the Student Bar Association, not just as a class senator because I was I started off as a senator. And the nice thing about that was I got to meet other students that were further ahead than I was in law school and from different parts of the country and different viewpoints. And I still keep in touch with a great deal of them today, and that really kinda opened my eyes. Someone has this different mindset, and you can kinda talk to them and see what's going on. But it was a camaraderie. We're all sitting there in law school. We're all stressing our futures. We're stressing finals.

Elias Fanous [00:12:14]: We're stressing, you know, at the time, you know, someone's in research and writing or in the moot court program or on a national trial team, which I am ultimately doing as well, you've kinda said bond, forged, and fire, if that makes sense. And being part of that really kinda drove me to, okay, I wanna run for student body president. And being at that campus in Lansing, I guess, talk specifically about Lansing because I don't really know the lifestyle that it was in Auburn Hills or Grand Rapids at that time. But you'd walk into the Cooley Center, and everyone was just kinda hanging out down there. It was always full, and people would say, hey, how you doing? And you could just jump into a different study group wherever you went, and people had this kind of bond of, hey, we're gonna help each other. And being president of the Student Bar Association was fantastic. I got to meet leaders from other campuses. I got to get really intimately involved with the day to day operations of the law school with my relationship with, at that time, Dean Don LaDuke.

Elias Fanous [00:13:09]: I got to know you quite well. You're our advisor. And it really set things up for the future. It turned out that because I worked so well with dean Don LaDuke, when I came back to Flint to practice law, I had gone to a couple different association meetings, mainly the bar association meeting and then the Centennial ends of court. And I was introduced as a new attorney, and I had met a gentleman by the name of Carl Bacosti. And I owe Carl a great deal, great man. He had gone to law school with Donald Duke. And when he found out I went to Cooley, he had reached out to Donald Duke.

Elias Fanous [00:13:39]: And because I was able to cultivate those relationships from being student bar president, helped me land my first office. And one thing that I will reach to the end of my days as an attorney is that first year and a half, Carl wouldn't charge me rent. He gave me office space to get under your feet. And I said, well, how can I ever repay you? And he said, just do it to the next person, and I will continue to always do that. But being that leader and going to different campuses, seeing what's going on, we had a lot of, as you may remember, we had a lot of issues between the campuses and trying to kind of figure out what's going on. And then there was political issues within the law school. It taught me how to problem solve and also kind of direct so we had different sub committees and I had to learn how to balance the sub definitely the definitely the best decision I ever made to get involved. But I would caution people, don't get involved until you have your grades right.

Elias Fanous [00:14:31]: Because it took a lot of time. It was a lot of energy. And I'm glad I waited to make sure that I had the proper grades, the proper studying techniques to get to that next level. Because if I didn't, you'd crash out. You simply would just crash out. And there were people that did. There were people in my class that tried to get involved right off the bat, and they just kinda misappropriated their time. And for one reason or another, they didn't they didn't last, unfortunately.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:54]: Well, now you are in your profession. You are practicing in a very busy way. You are a public defender. You are doing a lot of other work outside of that public defending work as well. You're currently running for office for a judge position. So you've got a lot of things going on. As you reflect back to that education that you got, how do you feel that that education prepared you for the things that you're doing on a daily basis?

Elias Fanous [00:15:19]: Specifically with respect to Cooley, I had some great mentors there as well. But Cooley truly prepared me to how to be a lawyer. So I wasn't, like, walking in trying to figure out how am I gonna run a practice. It was the relationships that you cultivate. It was the work ethic that you cultivate and it was also the ability to communicate. Those are the 3 big things for me and I picked a great county to stay in. I was born and raised here, and I often tell people Genesee County is the best county in the state of Michigan to practice law. Everyone is very friendly and very helpful to one another.

Elias Fanous [00:15:52]: There's a couple of drays out there that don't subscribe to that mindset, but I would say 98% of the the attorneys in the county will help each other no matter what. And I can truly speak to that because I went through some really tough and dark times in the beginning of COVID with the loss of my wife. So I had to take a step back from practicing law. She had just given birth to our son, our first child, and then she passed away, you know, tragically 11 days later. And I had attorneys coming out of the woodwork. Hey. Can we cover your cases? Doing things via Zoom. Whatever you need, we'll get it done for you.

Elias Fanous [00:16:26]: And the the community rallied a little bit around me and allowed me to kinda get through that grieving process and then to get back into the swing of things as far as practicing law. But had I not had the experiences at Cooley with respect to making those kind of relationships and understanding how things work, because it's not just black and white. Practicing law is a lot of gray. And that really helped me get my foothold in here in Genesee County, talk to people, kinda cultivate those relationships the same way I did when I was student bar president, and then it just paid out in dividends. And it still does to this day. I'm in a leadership role right now with with the County Bar Association. I'm the incoming vice president for the County Bar Association, and next year, I'll be the president. We kinda have a graduation step.

Elias Fanous [00:17:09]: You know, you start off as the secretary, then you move into the treasurer position, then vice president. And so you're learning about the next job from the next person who's doing it at the same time. And it's just like being in school again. You're watching how someone does something, taking notes, and trying to understand the thought process, the rationale, and then you take that next step and do the same thing. And that kind of translated itself into into my practice. And my practice is thriving. I'm very excited about it. I'm excited about the future, and we'll see what the future holds here in a few weeks with respect to the judicial campaign.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:41]: Now as you think about people that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be law school or not, what's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every individual thinking about that?

Elias Fanous [00:17:50]: The first thing I would say is research the school. Find out if you know. For example, for me, I didn't know that I wanted to be a litigator. I didn't know I wanted to be in public defender work until I got to law school, but I knew what the relationship was with different areas with Cooley, and I knew the history of the school at the time. And so research the school. Figure out exactly what you wanna get out of it. Make a goal list. You know, what do you wanna accomplish outside of just getting your degree? And this school that you picked, is it gonna fit those goals? And then once you do that, reach out, find people that have gone there, and get their opinions.

Elias Fanous [00:18:23]: For me, it was a blessing that my cousin had just had recently within 3 years had graduated from the law school, and it really helped sell the school to me. And then once, once you figure out that which school it is and you've talked to people, then sit down and contemplate it. Write a goal list and pros and cons. Because for some people, they're gonna move away. They're gonna go to a school outside of Michigan or outside of wherever they're from, And you also have to kind of balance that as well because it does make things difficult when you gotta come home for certain things or you wanna come home and maybe you can't on the drop of a hat. So, but for sure, always research the school, look at who their faculty are, and see what kind of accomplishments they have. Is it purely academic? Or is there more tangible, you know, work in the field being done with that school as well?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:07]: Well, Elias, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for sharing what you learned in this process, and what helped you to find success, and I wish you all the best.

Elias Fanous [00:19:16]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:17]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Welcome to the Victors in Grad School podcast, where we explore the graduate school journeys of people and what they had to do to find success in this journey. Today, we welcome Robb King, a seasoned professional in public relations, who shares his insights on the importance of ongoing education and the significant transitions that come with it.

The Spark for Continued Education

Robb King’s professional narrative began with an undergraduate degree in communications from the University of Michigan, Flint. After diving into the workforce as a sports reporter and later making significant contributions in public relations, King reached a pivotal moment—realizing the need for higher education to fulfill his career aspirations.

Reflecting on his journey, King states, "_I always knew that I wanted to continue and do more with my education... [enabling me] to make that same kind of difference for even just one student during my tenure at any of those campuses was important for me kind of as a way to give back._"

King's story illustrates the significant factors influencing his decision to pursue a graduate degree. Despite successful professional stints, the desire to impact others in higher education reignited his academic pursuits.

Navigating the Transition Back to Education

Transitioning back to education after a significant hiatus posed unique challenges for King. Nearly 20 years had passed since he completed his undergraduate studies. "

Being out of that student mindset for so long and being out of that pattern where you have to set aside time to read your texts and to do your assignments and to write your papers... it was still about getting into that read study mindset and getting back to dedicating yourself and setting aside the time to do the assignments and to learn and to grow” King recollects.

The essence of becoming a student again, juxtaposed with years as a professional, required King to draw upon his skills in research and storytelling to make the transition smoother. He emphasized the value of maintaining a student mentality, essential for adapting to and excelling in a rigorous academic environment.

Choosing Public Relations and Kent State

King’s decision to pursue a master’s degree in public relations was driven by his intrinsic passion for storytelling and his extensive experience in the field. Rather than venturing into other areas such as marketing or an MBA, King chose to deepen his expertise in public relations.

"At the heart of what I have done everywhere I've been has been to be a storyteller... That's why I wanted to continue my concentration in public relations because it's about connecting people and connecting their stories and sharing their stories and bringing people together,” King explains.

Choosing Kent State was strategic—leveraging a tuition waiver offered by his employer made financial sense, enabling him to focus on his education without the burden of significant student debt.

Applying Graduate Education to Professional Life

King’s narrative underscores how graduate education fortified his professional trajectory. The advanced degree provided him the credibility and toolkit necessary to assume higher leadership roles. It also served as a refresher that validated his past decisions and corrected any previous missteps.

"In doing my time in grad school really solidified for me that I had made the right career choice... It was a neat thing to relate my personal experiences to my reading assignments and go, ‘Okay, I was doing the right thing all along,’” King remarks.

His education facilitated smooth transitions into senior roles, including as the Chief Communication Officer at Slippery Rock University and later as the Director of Marketing and Communications at the University of Michigan, Flint.

Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students

King offers sage advice for individuals contemplating the pursuit of graduate education:

• Commit Fully:** "If you believe that that is the right thing for you and for your career, then you just have to jump in with both feet and go after it."
• Embrace Resilience:** "Expect to stumble and make mistakes, but remember that these are learning opportunities."
• Prioritize Wisely: "It’s essential to set aside time for study, even if it means sacrificing certain social engagements for long-term gains."

Robb King’s journey exemplifies the power of continuous learning and its capacity to transform one's career and personal growth. By fully embracing the student mentality and leveraging educational opportunities, King charted a path of professional excellence and meaningful impact.

For those contemplating a similar journey, King's experience offers a beacon of insight and inspiration, affirming that the path to higher education, though challenging, is unequivocally rewarding.

If you’re considering advancing your education, the University of Michigan Flint offers diverse graduate programs catered to both in-person and online learners. For more information, visit UM-Flint Graduate Programs. Embark on your own journey to educational and professional excellence today.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being able to talk with you about this journey that you're on. I say that every week, but it's so true. It is a journey. And some of you may be just thinking about you may be just thinking, starting to think about this idea of going and continuing your education. You might have been in the workforce for some time and now saying, You know what? I think I need to do something to be able to push me in a little bit different direction, to get some different experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: You might be saying to yourself, you know what? If I do this, I'm going to be able to get that job that I always wanted. I'm going to be able to meet that goal that I've set for myself. You might be in graduate school right now or looking at the light at the end of the tunnel, no matter where you are, this podcast was set up to help you find success in that journey. And that's why every week I love being able to talk with you, to work with you, to introduce you to different people that have had different experiences that have gone on to get that graduate degree and can give you some of their experiences, positive, negative, in between, that can help you to be able to add some tools to your toolbox that you can take with you as you go on this journey yourself. That's why every week we do bring you different guests, different people that can share some of those things with you. And today we've got another great guest with us. Rob King is with us. And Rob did his undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then went out into the workforce, worked for a number of years, and then continued on and got that graduate degree at Kent State University.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:01]: And we're going to be talking about that journey that he went on and learning from his experience. Rob, thanks so much for being here today.

Robb King [00:02:09]: Thanks for having me, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to be able to talk to you today. And what I love doing 1st and foremost is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, and then you got that bachelor's degree in communications. And from there you went off and got some experience. You jumped out into the workforce. And after a period of time, something went through your head. There was some inkling that made you just say to yourself, you know what? I think it's time. It's time to continue my education and move into a graduate degree. Talk to me about that thought process and what made you decide that you wanted to get a graduate degree?

Robb King [00:02:47]: For a long time after I got my bachelor's degree many years ago, 1990. Like you said, I did jump right into the workforce. Right out of college, I worked as a sports reporter at The Flint Journal, which continued my endeavors into writing, which I had done on campus as a reporter for the Michigan Times, spent all 4 years that I was on campus at the student paper. But it was always in the back of my head very early on that I wanted to do more with my education, and I think that was a combination of both, in addition to the paper, I had an on campus job. I liked the idea of being in higher ed. I knew that at some point, that's where I wanted to be as far as joining ultimately being in the workforce because there had been so many people on campus, whether it was the legendary, that's how I like to refer to him, Charles Apple, who was the head of the comms department during my time there and was also my advisor, whether it was him or Mary Jo Sokolsky, there were so many people that affected my life and my education in those 4 years that I was on the Flint campus that really pushed me to be the best version of myself that I was able to be at that time, that I knew that getting back into higher education is ultimately what I wanted to do because I thought, if all those people had such an effect on my life and made such a difference for me and were able to push me where I needed to go to do what I'm able to do, if I could come back regardless of whether it was working here at my alma mater or wherever at Kent State or, as you know, I spent 7 years at Slippery Rock University to be able to make that same kind of difference for even just one student during my ten year at any of those campuses was important for me kind of as a way to give back. So I always knew that I wanted to continue and do more with my education. But at the same time, when you get out with your bachelor's degree, you're 22 years old and you want to make money and you want to strike out on your own, and then life starts happening and things get in the way.

Robb King [00:04:46]: Over the course of time, you end up being a partner and being a father and I had a wife, I had 2 girls. Those responsibilities, work responsibilities, it just got put on the back burner. Then when eventually I did get into higher ed doing marketing and communications for one of Kent State's regional campuses, been there about a year, and that's really when I thought about, okay, I'm in a place now where my kids were older, things were kind of settled, had a good routine, and quite frankly, the opportunity to be able to take advantage of educational credits with tuition assistance from my employer made it even more palatable and kind of a no brainer not to do it. So I did decide to pursue my master's degree in public relations, which had been my field for the bulk of my professional career, so it just made sense to continue down that path. And the funny thing is is then when I got to the end of that road, which was 2 years of constant study, I get to the end of the road and the head of the program comes back to me the week after we conclude. He's like, okay. When did you start your doctorate? And I was like, nope. I'm good.

Robb King [00:05:53]: I'm good. Have my master's degree. I'm fine. We'll go from there and see where that takes me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:58]: It is definitely a continuum, and you are going to, as you go through that process, I mean, you have to figure out for yourself which direction you wanna go. You kind of talked about the fact that you were out before you came back, there is going to be a transition, a transition that you're going to go through to be able to be able to be successful in the program. So talk to me about what you had to do to be able to make that transition back into education and what you had to do to be able to not only set yourself up for success, but what you had to do to be able to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Robb King [00:06:46]: From graduating with my bachelor's until I started the master's program was roughly like a 20 year gap. So being out of that student mindset for so long and being out of that pattern where you have to set aside time to read your texts and to do your assignments and to write your papers. It was easy to get back into that rhythm to a degree because working in public relations, you're usually researching for stories and then you're writing your texts. So, doing that part was easy, but it was still about getting into that that read study mindset and getting back to dedicating yourself and setting aside the time to do the assignments and to learn and to grow. It's really about becoming a student again. You learn different things as a professional day to day to help you do your jobs better, but I think learning as a student versus learning as a professional are 2 entirely different things and 2 different mindsets related, but different. So, it was about even though everything was online, I'll use the term getting back into that classroom mentality. And you know what? 20 years later, it was the same thing.

Robb King [00:08:00]: I would look at the syllabus and go, how many chapters do I have to read this week? So, a lot of that stuff still hangs around. But I think with anything, it's keeping your eye on the prize and what you wanna do. I think that my my undergrad degree had taken me as far as it could. I mean, I had a wealth and decades of experience behind me, which helped me advance even without an advanced degree, but I knew that if I wanted to lead a group of people in higher ed and take the reins of a marketing and communications department and be the one to foster the change and lead the charge, so to speak, that I was going to need that because job descriptions were constantly having bachelor's degree required, but master's preferred. Well, to me, master's preferred means if you don't have it, we're probably not going to consider you as strongly as we do somebody that does. So I knew that to take that next step and to be an executive director or a chief officer in the communications and marketing department, I was going to take need to take that next step for myself dedication and wherewithal to make that commitment to not only myself and my education but to whatever institution that I was working for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:21]: Now I know I said that you were working in public relations. Your master's is in public relations. Now you could have studied in a lot of different areas and there's a lot of different sub components to a communication degree. You chose to continue on in public relations type of work. Talk to me about that decision and the thought process behind whether you would stay like you did in selecting public relations as the field of study versus probably could have done something else. You could have got an MBA. You could have got another kind of type of communication degree. So talk to me about the choice of a public relations degree and what was going through your head and why you chose to stay in that area, and then why you chose Kent State as the ultimate place to stay versus other institutions where you could have gotten other types of programs or other opportunities?

Robb King [00:10:14]: Well, for me, before getting into higher ed, public relations was always at the center of it. When I was at Flint, like I said earlier, I spent 4 years on staff at the Michigan Times going from a student writer to an associate editor to the editor of the paper. But while I was doing that, I was also working in the student, what back then was the student entertainment office working on events. I did a internship with the then Flint Spirits, which was the old International Hockey League team in town, and did 2 semesters for credit and ended up spending another 3 seasons with the team as an unpaid intern working in PR and marketing. And at the minor league level, your staffs are always small, so you do wear a lot of hats. So it's not just writing press releases. It's writing press releases. It's making arrangements for public appearances.

Robb King [00:11:02]: It's putting together ad copy for the radio and for TV. So you get all that exposure. So there are, as you noted, different areas where you could when you wanna continue your education that you can choose to focus on. I chose to stay, and I could have done MBA or I could have done a marketing concentration. Concentration. But the reason that I chose to stay in in public relations is because at the heart of what I have done everywhere I've been has been to be a storyteller. And that goes back to being a writer for my high high and that goes back to being a writer for my high school paper in Swartz Creek as I've always enjoyed sharing other people's stories with the masses. And even, I spent 16 seasons in minor league sports, But even when you're in that field, you're sharing stories through press releases and through magazine stories or connecting your beat writer with your with your captain who had a 7 point night in a hockey game and has hit a milestone. There's always that storyteller center was always there for me. So that's why I wanted to continue my concentration in public relations because it's about connecting people and connecting their stories and sharing their stories and bringing people together. So that's that's really why I chose to concentrate on that versus veering off into marketing or an MBA or something of that nature, which isn't to say anything against those concentrations. But that's all areas that I worked in along the way and felt good enough about those, which isn't say I didn't feel good enough about my PR stuff. I did.

Robb King [00:12:35]: That was just the area that I gravitated towards because I am a storyteller. And the reason I chose Kent, if I'm just being honest, it's because they were my employer and I had a tuition waiver. So, that made it a lot more palatable financially to be able to continue because the only thing that I had to pay for every semester was I had like a $7.49 legal fee charge that every grad student had to pay. So you know what? For $7.49 a semester, I'll earn that master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Definitely. There's no issue there. So I guess one of the things that I guess that I am interested in is that you took that degree and you did take advantage of being able to move on, move up, and move out from Kent State after finishing that degree a little bit after that. And as you said, you moved to slippery rock to be their chief communication officer, ultimately, and then now being the director of marketing and communications at the University of Michigan Flint. As you think back to the education that you got in your bachelor's degree, your master's degree, talk to me about how you feel that that graduate education prepared you for those next steps and beyond that you're doing now, and how do you see yourself using that education on a daily basis?

Robb King [00:14:02]: In pursuing the master's degree, it really, for me, having all those years in the field prior, reading the texts and doing the assignments was kinda like a great refresher course for me during that time because as I was reading case studies or white papers, I'm reading this material, and I'm relating it to things that have happened to me during the 20 years prior and instances or situations that I've encountered, and and I'm drawing parallels, and it's reinforcing in me decisions that I made that were correct or decisions that I made that were not the best choice at the time, but was able to use them as learning opportunities. So I felt that in doing my time in grad school really solidified for me that, one, that I had made the right career choice and that it also said to me, okay, here are these situations which are very similar to things that I had encountered and that most of the time in reading texts from experts in the field that I had made the right decisions. And it was kind of it was a neat thing to be able to relate my own personal experiences to what I was reading in my assignments and going, okay, wow, you know what? I was doing the right thing all along and I made the right choices for me and my crew and my employer. And in those instances that I that I didn't, I was being provided with the tools to allow me to have a different thought process when I was presented with those situations moving forward.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:41]: Now this show is all about success and helping individuals no matter what kind of degree that they're inter interested in find success in that graduate school journey. As you think back to your own graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer to another student, another person thinking about graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Robb King [00:16:03]: I think ultimately you have to be once once you've made that decision that that's something that you're going to pursue, I think it's like anything else that you're trying for the first time. You may waffle. You may the pendulum's gonna swing back and forth on, do I really wanna do this? Do I have the time to commit to it? How is it going to affect my family life? What do I do when I'm in a time crunch? How do I prioritize? But it's like anything else. If you believe that that is the right thing for you and for your career, then you just have to jump in with with both feet and go after it. It's like anything else. It's like pursuing a promotion or a salary increase or anything else in life that you encounter. If you want it, go for it. You're gonna stumble along the way.

Robb King [00:16:46]: Everybody does. It's okay to make mistakes. And I know that those are all cliches and everybody says them, but they're cliches because they're accurate. You are gonna stumble. You are gonna make mistakes. You may upset someone because you can't do x or you can't go to y because you have to set aside that time for yourself to study. But you have to remember that at the end of the day, yeah, going out for dinner would be fun, but improving yourself, improving your mindset, improving your career is going to do so much more, not only for yourself but for those around you. And if you're in a field where it can also help make a difference for others and for your community, what's a better choice in that moment? And at the end of the day, to earn a master's degree in most in most cases, it's 2 years out of your life, which really is not that big of a commitment overall in the big scheme of things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:44]: Rob, thank you so much for sharing your journey today, for being willing to help others in the journey that they're on, and I truly wish you all the best.

Robb King [00:17:52]: Thanks, Chris. I appreciate it. It was good to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:54]: The University of Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Transitioning from undergraduate to graduate school is a significant decision that involves careful planning, research, and a readiness to meet new challenges. On the latest episode of the “Dads with Daughters” podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis hosts Brenna Dressler, a graduate of Saginaw Valley State University and the University of Michigan Flint, who shares her experiences and wisdom on navigating this important transition. Let's dive into the valuable insights and strategies discussed during the episode.

Understanding the Decision to Pursue Graduate School: Initial Interests and Realizations

Brenna initially planned to enter the field of occupational therapy but found that the rigorous anatomy and physiology courses were not her forte. This realization prompted her to explore other avenues, and she discovered public health through her mentor professor, Dr. Megan Ruth. Intrigued by the possibilities of helping people in a broader context, Brenna shifted her focus to public health, laying the groundwork for her future educational and career choices.

"I always knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity... I went back home and I did some research on it... It still gave me the opportunity to help individuals, and, yeah, it just seemed like a great fit for me." - Brenna Dressler

Researching and Choosing the Right Graduate Program: Criteria and Decision-Making Process

Selecting the right graduate program can be daunting, but Brenna’s systematic approach made it manageable. She emphasized the importance of creating an organized list of criteria that mattered most, such as cost, location, and scholarship opportunities. Brenna's research led her to attend an informational session at the University of Michigan Flint, where she felt a positive connection with the faculty and the campus environment. "I created an Excel document and I inputted different items that I was kind of looking for in a program. Cost was a big thing for me... I was looking for scholarship opportunities... I just really liked the environment." - Brenna Dressler Specialization and Fit Brenna also underscored the importance of aligning the program with her specific interests within public health. For example, she considered a specialized program in maternal and child health before ultimately deciding on Michigan Flint's more general public health program accommodating her broader interests.

"It helps to know kind of an area that you want to work in because there are degree programs out there that are more specialized." - Brenna Dressler

Setting Up for Success in Graduate School: Initial Steps and Organization

Once deciding on the University of Michigan Flint, Brenna's next step was to meet with her advisor, Dr. Solly, to map out her course of study for the next few years. This early planning and staying organized with schedules and supplies set a solid foundation for her academic journey. "My first thing was reaching out to my adviser and meeting with them and really just figuring out what the next 2, 3 years in the program was gonna look like... Organization wise, obviously, getting binders and making sure I have all the supplies and things like that to really set me up for success." - Brenna Dressler

Balancing Involvement and Academics

Brenna's experience highlighted the importance of balancing academic responsibilities with extracurricular involvement. She actively participated in student organizations, study abroad programs, and built a strong support network, all while maintaining discipline in her studies.

"I went to Africa. So I got involved in a lot... It helps to... have a support system in place to lift you up when things get hard or to study with or to just to vent to if you're having a bad day." - Brenna Dressler

Applying Graduate Skills in the Professional World: Career Progression and Application of Skills

Brenna's graduate education significantly influenced her career trajectory. Her involvement in research during both undergraduate and graduate studies equipped her with the skills necessary for her role as a clinical research technician and later as a project specialist. The connections she made and maintained with her professors also played a significant role in her career advancement.

"As far as the things that I took from grad school, definitely keeping those connections... They've wrote letters of recommendations for jobs... that's one thing that I would highly recommend in grad school is just making that connection." - Brenna Dressler

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students: Key Recommendations

Brenna offers several practical tips for prospective graduate students:

1. Reach Out to Faculty: Contacting staff or faculty members at potential schools can provide valuable insights into the programs' alignment with your career goals.
2. Engage with Current or Past Students: Understanding the student perspective can offer a clearer picture of the program experience.
3. Research Thoroughly: Make sure the program fits your professional aspirations and personal circumstances through comprehensive research.

"I would say that I would reach out to maybe some of the staff at the school that you're looking at... reach out to students that have already gone through the program." - Brenna Dressler

Graduate school is a rewarding but challenging journey. By thoroughly researching programs, planning meticulously, staying disciplined, and leveraging connections, students can set themselves up for success. Brenna Dressler's story is a testament to how deliberate and informed decisions can lead to fulfilling educational and professional outcomes. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being on a journey with you, being on a journey that is working side by side to walk alongside you as you're looking at graduate school. And I say a journey because it is a journey. And every person that considers graduate school is on a journey that is individual as themselves. And you have to go through it to be able to not only prepare yourself for making that transition into grad school, but then you have to go through it to be able to get through graduate school as well because sometimes there are things that you have to overcome as you go through those experiences as well. But along the way, you can learn from so many people that have gone before you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:02]: And that's what this show is all about. The show is here to help you, to give you some tools for your toolbox, to be able to help you to learn from others that have done graduate school before you, and to open your eyes to some of the things that you might need to be thinking about or want to be thinking about as you think about graduate school as well. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests that have done graduate school in the past, that have gone to graduate school in the past, and can share that journey with you as well. And today we got another great guest with us today. Brenna Dressler is with us today. And Brenna did her undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University, but then decided after a short period of time out from Saginaw Valley to go back to graduate school and to get her master's degree in public health from the University of Michigan, Flint. So we're gonna be talking to her, learning a little bit more about her own journey, and allowing for her to share some of the things that she learned along the way to help you in your journey as well. Brenna, thanks so much for being here today.

Brenna Dressler [00:02:00]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure having you here today. Love being able to chat with you about the experiences that you've had. And one of the first things that I love being able to do is to turn the clock back in time. I said that you did your undergraduate work back at Saginaw Valley State University a few years back. And sometime during that time that you were either going through your undergraduate work or in those early years of being out in the workforce, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue your education and get a degree in a little bit different area from where you were in your undergraduate work, where you got your bachelor of science with minors in gerontology and management, a kind of a health science degree and public health too. But talk to me a little bit about that journey for yourself and what made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Brenna Dressler [00:02:52]: Yeah. So I always knew that I wanted to help people in some capacity. So originally, I went to Saginaw Valley thinking I was gonna go through the occupational therapy program. I quickly realized after going through more anatomy and physiology classes, That just wasn't my forte. It just didn't really stick with me. I found it very difficult. So I went back to my advisor, doctor Megan Ruth, who is a great mentor of mine, and she told me about this idea called public health that I had never heard about. It sounded very interesting.

Brenna Dressler [00:03:28]: I went back home and I did some research on it. And actually at the time, Saginaw Valley didn't have a direct bachelor's of public health degree. It was a bachelor's of health science, but I took mostly public health courses. So it's essentially a public health bachelor's degree. So yeah. I quickly realized that this sounded like something I would really enjoy. I like working with people. It still gave me the opportunity to help individuals, and, yeah, it just seemed like a great fit for me.

Brenna Dressler [00:03:58]: Along the way, like you said, I found out about a gerontology minor and a management minor just to kinda diversify myself. I still haven't really used either of those minors, but education is good no matter what though. And then, obviously, through my research, when I found out about public health, I found out that there is a graduate program as well. I quickly became very interested in that because I kind of already assumed that I was gonna be going into a graduate program of some sort because OT was a graduate program. So then from there, just started my research on different programs and different options and fell across U of M Flint's program. So that's kinda how it evolved.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:36]: So talk to me about that research process that you went through because you did decide to attend the University of Michigan Flint, but there are many different programs that are out there. And as you said, you did your research and you identified and and looked at specific things that you were looking for. Talk to me about what you were looking for, what you kind of explored in that research, and what made you decide to ultimately attend the University of Michigan Flint?

Brenna Dressler [00:05:01]: So I created an Excel document and I inputted different items that I was kind of looking for in a program. Cost was a big thing for me. I looked in state and out of state. I applied to a few out of state programs. I was looking for scholarship opportunities, things like that. And ultimately, I ended up coming down to U of M Flint for one of their informational sessions and met a few of the professors and things like that and just really liked the environment when I did come down for that info session. I don't know. It just felt comfortable there.

Brenna Dressler [00:05:33]: It felt kind of similar to Saginaw Valley. Saginaw Valley is a smaller university. Growing up, I always went to smaller schools with less students in classrooms. So that was really important to me to kind of have a more individualized experience. And it just felt like U of M Flint really kind of fit fit the bill for me. It's also close to home and my mom has some health issues so it was important for me to be around to help out when I needed to. Saved me a ton of money while still getting the U of M diploma. So that was kind of my process with that.

Brenna Dressler [00:06:05]: As far as, like, finding out about other programs, it was pretty easy to just Google and find out. I think there was a program out in Colorado that I was looking at that was maternal and child health focused, which is where I thought I was gonna end up. I really like that area of public health. So it helps to know kind of an area that you want to work in because there are degree programs out there that are more specialized.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:26]: So as you made that final decision, you decided to attend the University of Michigan Flint, you made that transition into graduate school. It is very clear that the way you're educated in undergrad is different than the way you're being educated in grad school. The expectations are different as well. So talk to me about what did you have to do to set yourself up for success as you transitioned in, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout graduate school?

Brenna Dressler [00:06:56]: So one of the first things that I did was met with my advisor, who's doctor Solly, who I love dearly. She's done so much for me, and I credit her for a lot of my success in the program and in my career. So my first thing was reaching out to my adviser and meeting with them and really just figuring out what the next 2, 3 years in the program was gonna look like. I think right off the bat, she could tell that I was a very motivated and great student, which I hope she would say that today if you talk to her. But so that was my first step. Next was just, like I said, kind of planning out the next couple of years. I'm a very organized person, so knowing what's to come was really important for me. Organization wise, obviously, getting binders and making sure I have all the supplies and things like that to really set me up for success.

Brenna Dressler [00:07:43]: I think discipline is really important because sometimes when you're going to grad school and also working and trying to have a life outside of it, it can be kind of hard. So making sure that you stay disciplined and produce good work is really important. Also, just finding kind of either a group or a partner that can lift you up when things get hard or to study with or to just to vent to if you're having a bad day, you know, or have a bad exam in the program, things like that. I think that's really important to latch on to a couple people that you really enjoy and, because you're gonna be with those people through the entire program. That really helped me as well. Also getting involved in student groups. I was president of a student organization. I got involved in study abroad.

Brenna Dressler [00:08:27]: I went to Africa. So I got involved in in a lot. And like I said, the discipline was really important because there's times that I wanted to do something more fun, but I had an epidemiology exam the next day.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:38]: You definitely have to balance those things, and you have to look at all of the opportunities that avail themselves to you. But then take advantage of what you can take advantage of because sometimes students may think about what how involved they were as undergraduate students. And then as they get into grad school, they have to temper that a little bit, or they have to add some things in because it's an involvement turns involvement means something a little bit different in grad school. And a lot of times, what I see with students is that involvement revolves a lot around the profession itself. And in thus, versus in undergrad, it might not be as profession related, but there's lots of other opportunities to get involved. So I completely agree with you. Get involved. Find ways to get involved.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:23]: You know, and and even if you're doing an online program, find ways to get involved and and be able to make those connections, network, etcetera. Now that you've completed your degree, you are now out in the workforce. You have been out in the workforce for a bit of time. You are a clinical research technician with Michigan Medicine, also an adjunct faculty member at Saginaw Valley State University. So talk to me about, now that you've been out in your career for a bit and you're utilizing your degree on a regular basis, Talk to me about how that graduate degree really prepared you for these next steps that you took in your professional career.

Brenna Dressler [00:10:02]: Sure. So actually, I have a different role right now. So the clinical research technician, I think that was about a year ago that I had that one. So the current role that I have is a project specialist with a quality improvement program at University of Michigan. But the research role was really pivotal in getting this position for me. I did research in both undergrad and grad school with professors, and I think that really gave me some great experience, hands on experience with research and presenting papers and posters and things at national conferences and just understanding the the how to perform research and write papers and things like that. I think that really was helpful in me getting the clinical research technician position, which was working on the COVID vaccine trials. So I did that position for about 2 years working from home.

Brenna Dressler [00:10:52]: And then while in that position, I was able to make the connection with the program director of my current role. And she knew that I had my master's of public health and knew that I was a great worker and smart and could pick things up pretty quickly. So she kind of offered the job to me knowing that this program was gonna start in a year or so. But as far as the things that I took from grad school, definitely keeping those connections. I think doctor Sully helped me a lot with applying for jobs and looking for jobs. I always stress to my students, which I teach at Saginaw Valley and at Ferris now, I always stress to them the importance of mentorship and making that connection with a professor that you really enjoy working with or things like that. And that's really got me really far is keeping those connections with my professors. They've wrote letters of recommendations for jobs, for this and that, and that's one thing that I would highly recommend in grad school is just making that connection.

Brenna Dressler [00:11:50]: Another thing was the organization of just keeping my schedule and being disciplined and things like that because I do currently work from home still. And so it's very easy to get distracted by laundry and dishes and things at home. So making sure I have that discipline to get my job done is really important. Obviously, the coursework has really played a a strong role in what I do. I currently manage a lot of the health education aspects of the program that I work for, and that's what my master's of public health was in, was in health education. So I use a lot of the health communications models and things like that. Yeah. I can't say more about how the coursework has helped me in my current role.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:31]: So as you think back to your graduate education and you think about other students that are thinking about graduate school, whether it be going into a public health degree or some other degree that's out there. What are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them to find success sooner?

Brenna Dressler [00:12:50]: I would say that I would reach out to maybe some of the staff at the school that you're looking at. Just send them a quick email and just introduce yourself and say, this is what I'm interested in. This is where I see myself in 5 years. Do you think this program would really fit my needs and my interests for my career? I think that's a great start. It also gives you that connection off the bat if you do decide to go to that university. Another thing would be reaching out to students that have already gone through the program. So you can find them on LinkedIn or maybe they have a blog post on the university's website that you can find an email address. I think really talking to the students gives you a great idea of what the program is like, from their perspective.

Brenna Dressler [00:13:31]: I think that's always a great option. Just do your research about the university, about the program, making sure that it aligns with your goals and

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:39]: Well, Brenda, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your story today, for being here, and for and for doing what you're doing now to be able to help others in our community through that public health degree. And I truly wish you all the best.

Brenna Dressler [00:13:54]: Thank you. It was great to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:56]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs. If you are interested in continuing your education, whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Welcome to "Victors in Grad School," a podcast where we engage in enlightening conversations with students, alumni, and experts to uncover what it takes to excel in graduate school. Hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, the podcast is a valuable resource for anyone contemplating, currently enrolled in, or nearing the completion of their graduate studies. In a recent episode, Dr. Lewis had the pleasure of hosting Kayla Bueby, a Clinical Assistant Professor and Practicum Education Coordinator at the University of Michigan Flint. Kayla shared her transformative journey through various stages of her academic career, from her Bachelor's in Social Work (BSW) to her Master's in Social Work (MSW), and even a postgraduate certificate in Business Administration.

Understanding the Importance of Graduate Education

Graduate education is often a journey filled with numerous transitions and challenges. These changes could range from shifts in self-perception to evolving learning methodologies. Dr. Lewis emphasizes that graduate school is a unique journey that requires comprehensive preparation to ensure success. The goal of the podcast is to aid students at various stages of their graduate education by bringing in guests who have successfully navigated this journey and are willing to share their wisdom.

The Initial Transition: From BSW to MSW

Kayla Bueby began her academic climb at Saginaw Valley State University, where she earned her BSW. She then transitioned to Michigan State University for her MSW. When asked about the motives behind her decision to pursue an MSW, Kayla mentioned the defining role her undergraduate faculty played. They provided her with clarity about the importance of advanced degrees in the field of social work, especially for those aiming to become mental health therapists. She knew that a master's degree was a crucial stepping stone to achieving her career goals, and this understanding came early in her bachelor's program, largely due to the guidance she received from her mentors.

Navigating Graduate School Choices

Choosing a graduate school is no small feat, and Kayla conducted rigorous research to identify the best MSW programs available. She acknowledged the pivotal role that professional organizations like the National Association of Social Workers (NASW) played in her search process. By joining NASW as a student member, she gained access to a wealth of resources, continuing education opportunities, and crucial insights into the hot topics and future directions in the field of social work. This experience was instrumental in her decision to attend Michigan State University, which offered a specialized trauma-informed care certificate as part of their MSW program.

The Unexpected Yet Beneficial Addition of Business Knowledge In a fascinating twist, Kayla didn't stop at her MSW. She ventured into the realm of business by earning a postgraduate certificate in Business Administration and Management. Initially intrigued by the possibility of blending social work with business, she aimed for an MBA but settled on the certificate after realizing that her strengths did not align perfectly with certain business courses like accounting. Despite these challenges, the experience was invaluable, and the knowledge she gained has continued to benefit her career.

Coping with the Realities of Graduate Life

As someone who has worked extensively with both undergraduate and graduate students, Kayla shared valuable insights into coping with the multifaceted challenges of graduate life. Time management, she pointed out, is a universal stressor among graduate students who often juggle school, work, and personal responsibilities. She advocated for a customized approach to time management, highlighting the importance of finding what works best for an individual's unique circumstances.

Kayla also stressed the importance of leveraging available resources for mental health support. For instance, institutions like the University of Michigan Flint offer free counseling and psychological services to students, including remote options. Utilizing these resources can make a substantial difference in a student's overall well-being and academic performance.

Transitioning to a Faculty Role: A Full-Circle Moment

Kayla's journey came full circle as she transitioned from an administrative role to a faculty position. She is particularly excited about the launch of the new MSW program at the University of Michigan Flint. Having transitioned multiple times herself, she now aims to be the empathetic, knowledgeable guide for her students that she once sought in her mentors. She hopes to provide her students with the skills and empathy needed to navigate the complexities of real-world social work.

Final Tips for Aspiring Graduate Students

In wrapping up, Kayla shared some critical advice for those considering graduate education: "Start with the end in mind." It's essential to have a clear understanding of your career goals and to ensure that the graduate program you choose aligns well with those objectives. Don't hesitate to reach out to faculty, program directors, and current students to gather as much information as possible. This proactive approach can help ensure that you make informed decisions that will set you on the path to a rewarding professional life.

Graduate school is a demanding but incredibly rewarding journey. By leveraging the experiences and insights of those who have successfully navigated this path, like Kayla Bueby, future students can better prepare themselves for the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead.

For more insights and tips on navigating graduate education, tune into "Victors in Grad School" and embark on your own journey to success.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week as always, we are on a journey together. I say that every week, but it's so true that you are thinking about graduate school. You're here because you're thinking about graduate school, And you might be just at that first inkling where you think, maybe I need to continue my education. You might be in graduate school, or you might be looking at the light at the end of the tunnel where you're saying, I'm almost done. Almost ready for taking this graduate education to the next step and moving into a new career area or expanding in the current career that you're in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:55]: No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And as you go through this graduate school experience, you're going to be going through a lot of changes, a lot of changes in yourself, changes in the way that you learn, changes in the way that you are looking at yourself as an employee, as a student, as a individual. So it's really important that you do what you can to prepare yourself, to prepare yourself for the work that you're going to be doing throughout your graduate school journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to find ways in which you can find success in that graduate school journey. That's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that can help you do just that. And I love being able to bring you these different people that have had these different experiences because they have gone before you. They have gone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: They have gotten a graduate degree. They've been successful, and they're sharing that experience with you today. Today, we've got another great guest with us. Kayla Bubi is with us today, and Kayla is a clinical assistant professor for our b for the BSW and MSW programs here at the University of Michigan Flint. She's also the practicum education coordinator for those programs as well. We're gonna be talking to her about her own experience going through graduate school herself and learning along the way. Really excited to have her here. Kayla, thanks so much for being here.

Kayla Bueby [00:02:22]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:23]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I love being able to bring people in to be able to talk about their different experiences, to share those experiences and help people along the way. 1st and foremost, one of the things that I love doing is turning the clock back in time. And I wanna go back a few years. I wanna go back because I know that you did your undergraduate work at Saginaw Valley State University where you got your BSW, your bachelor of social work. And after that, you went on to get an MSW, a master of social work at Michigan State University. So let's first talk about that first transition. And I would love to kind of go into your mind and say to yourself, Kate, what were the reasons that you chose that you wanted to continue on in getting going from the BSW to the MSW?

Kayla Bueby [00:03:07]: Yeah. That's a great question. My my BSW experience at Saginaw Valley was wonderful. And in that program, I learned so much about the particulars of each of the degrees. So in certain professions, your degree means a lot in terms of what you're able to do. And in social work, that's very true. So I had the goal of becoming a mental health therapist and becoming a clinician, and I knew I needed to achieve a master's degree and earn a master's degree in order to do that. And I had wonderful faculty that helped me understand that path and prepare me for what was next so that I knew very early on in my bachelor's degree program that that was the direction that I was heading in.

Kayla Bueby [00:03:48]: That was incredibly helpful. So in a social work degree program, the job that you want to do has a ton of bearing on what level of degree you need, and that was made so clear to me early on, and I really appreciated that. So that's how I ended up knowing that I wanted to continue on with my master's degree education very early on in my bachelor's education.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: As you learn that and you were talking to your faculty mentors or advisors or others that were saying to you, okay, you wanna do this, you've gotta get this. As you were starting to prepare for that next step, as you were going through that BSW, I'm sure you had to start doing some type of, let's say, reconnaissance, some type of research to be able to look at the myriad of different MSW programs that were out there. And there are quite a few in the state of Michigan, but there's also many others across the nation. And I'm sure you had many opportunities. You could have gone to almost any school that you had wanted to. You chose to go to Michigan State University. Talk to me about that decision making process, that research that you did for yourself. And why did you ultimately decide to attend Michigan State University?

Kayla Bueby [00:05:00]: Knowing early on in my BSW program that I was interested in pursuing an MSW was a monumental help in that regard. 1 of the from a social work perspective, one of the most impactful things that I did was got connected to my professional membership organization, which in our profession is NASW or the National Association of Social Workers, specifically the Michigan chapter, and became a student member. They offered some really wonderful student member rate, and that got me connected to the practice professional community in a way that I had not been connected to before. They also offered free or reduced cost continuing education offerings and trainings that I was able to take part in as a student. And when I did that, I got to know what the hot topics in the profession were, where was our field heading, what did I need to know about in order to be prepared to not only apply to grad school, but be successful in grad school, and then ultimately be successful as a professional? And one of the things at the time, and certainly now still, that kept coming up was trauma informed care. So I became very interested in trauma informed care, and that was something that was on my mind as I was looking for graduate programs. On a personal note, I had always wanted to attend Michigan State University, so they were already very high on my list. But they also had a trauma informed care certificate program that I was able to take part in and was able to leave my graduate program with this additional certificate that has assisted me in my career ever since.

Kayla Bueby [00:06:31]: So that was a huge part of that was understanding where your field currently is as a profession, what are the hot topics, what are the latest and greatest evidence based approaches that you should know about as a student, and aligning that with a program that was able to prepare me in that way throughout my master's program to walk into the profession, already a step ahead or maybe 2 steps ahead of some of the other graduates in my field.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: You just talked about the fact that you learned a lot of those pieces, the hot topics and things that were really important for someone going into the field to know by being a student member of the National Association. There's a number of national associations that are out there for a lot of different career areas. Talk to me about how did you get involved in that national association, and what would you recommend to students that are going into a graduate program to do as they look at national associations, statewide associations, things that are out there that they might be able to find involvement in as well.

Kayla Bueby [00:07:34]: I became aware of NASW and, to some extent, involved in it because my faculty members spoke so highly of that professional organization. They were truly mentors to me throughout the entire bachelor's degree process. And their feedback and their experiences with the association were something that were that was very helpful for me to understand. And then they created opportunities, sometimes extracurricularly, but also sometimes within our curriculum, in order for the students to get connected to that particular particular organization. So for NASW, for instance, there's an annual legislative advocacy day that students are always welcome to attend, where we're able to go to Lansing and talk to legislators about social work specific policies that are being made or being proposed. So those were wonderful ways for me to get connected. As I mentioned, they also had a a discounted student rate, which made it more affordable for me as a student who is living on a very limited income And many professional organizations offer something similar to make that more accessible to folks who are spending lots of money already on their education, books, and everything else that they might have going on. So I would definitely encourage students to ask faculty what professional organizations are they familiar with, have they found value in, are they members of where social work is pretty cut and dry.

Kayla Bueby [00:08:56]: NASW is our ultimate professional association, but some professions may have multiple. And so it's worth asking your faculty what they might recommend or what their experiences have been with those organizations if there are multiple.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:10]: Now I know that you ended up getting another degree outside of the BSW and the MSW, and that was a postgraduate business certificate in business administration and management. And a very different area of study in comparison to what you study for your bachelor's and master's. And for those of you that don't know, a graduate certificate tends to be a core group of courses that you take in a specific targeted area. It might be 9 credits. It might be 12 credits. You know, it's a specific number of courses in that targeted area. So as I mentioned, Kayla, you decided to get a certificate in business administration and management. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to focus and get a different type of experience in this way?

Kayla Bueby [00:09:59]: Yeah. I think talking about the trauma informed care and trauma informed perspectives that I was interested in early on I also knew that early on I was very interested in management, administration, and leadership within the social work profession as well. As a staff member at the University of Michigan Flint at the time, I was able to take advantage of a wonderful benefit through our institution that was able to support some of my educational pursuits during that time. I was able to take advantage of a wonderful benefit through our institution that was able to support some of my educational pursuits during that time. And I decided I wanted to initially explore an MBA. And joint MSW and MBA degrees are not uncommon. They weren't back then, and they aren't uncommon now, because a lot of social workers do end up in process, and so I ended up ending that my time with that program a little bit early, but was able to complete that post master's certificate. Although not knowledge from those courses that I was able to take, and the faculty were wonderful. I will be the 1st person to say I am not the strongest when it comes to accounting, when it comes to the books, when it comes to the number side of business administration. And countless times when I had questions, faculty were a if I had something that I needed in order to be successful.

Kayla Bueby [00:11:29]: So I really appreciated my time in that program, and it's continued years later to serve me very well. And I appreciate the opportunity that I was afforded to be able to access that education as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:41]: Now with your bachelor's to master's, your master's to certificate to certificate, there's always transitions when you enter into different programs. How you were taught in your MSW is gonna be different than how you were taught in your business classes, And you have to be able to maneuver and manage those transitions to be successful in graduate school itself. So what did you have to do in each of those degree settings to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout that journey through those different programs?

Kayla Bueby [00:12:14]: There are big differences between each of those programs. And one of the things that I wish I would have maybe done differently or been a little bit stronger in doing was understanding that there was no way that I could know before I started those programs exactly what the differences would have been. And I held myself to the standard, this very standard of having to know what it was gonna be like before I even experienced it. That caused me a lot of stress. It caused a lot of anxiety, and it caused a lot of confusion for me. Whereas if I would have taken the learner approach and said, you know what? I can't possibly know what this is gonna be like, and that's okay. I'm not supposed to know. I'm supposed to learn what this is going to be.

Kayla Bueby [00:12:56]: I think that would have left me open to learning more about what the experience really would be like instead of what I thought it might be like. And in all of those circumstances, as you mentioned, it was a very different experience. The thing that I did to sustain was ask questions because I realized that especially when you continue on to a graduate level education, professors are incredibly invested in your success, or at least that was my experience, especially at U of M Flint. And I they wanted me to ask questions. They were interested in the questions that I had. There was no silly question to them, especially as somebody coming from a different discipline into the business side of things in particular. I had many questions. How what is the culture of this type of profession? How are things typically done? What parallels might I be able to find between the 2? And they were very interested in discussing that.

Kayla Bueby [00:13:51]: And there are times where, especially even with an MSW degree, you don't necessarily have to have a bachelor's degree to go into that. And so there are plenty of graduate programs where you don't necessarily need to have one particular degree to go into that advanced level degree, and you might find yourself in a similar situation where you're trying to find the parallels. You're you're trying to see how those two worlds blend together, and I strongly recommend leaning on faculty members and your peers maybe who have some experience to really help you integrate your knowledge, which is valuable, into one cohesive educational experience. It's difficult. So understanding that it's going to be a process and that you're not gonna know everything early on, and that that's okay, is a big mindset shift that, as I mentioned, I wish I would have adopted a little bit earlier in my journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]: Now I know that you said that going into the MSW, you were interested in trauma informed care. And pretty quickly after getting that MSW, you transitioned into some working in higher education after doing some community based type of work as well. But a lot of your career has really been focused in on working in higher education and working with students. So you have an interesting perspective in that regard of being able to work with students in many different aspects, graduate students, undergraduate students. I would love your perspective, especially with the fact that for a number of years, you worked in the counseling in the counseling area within a college environment and working with students in that capacity. Could you talk to me a little bit about what you learned along the way in working with, we'll say, graduate students in some of the big stressors, some of the things that they were learning with, and some of the things that you might have shared with them to help them to maneuver those situations to be able to come out stronger in the end?

Kayla Bueby [00:15:43]: Yeah. I think, by and large, one of the common threads with graduate students when I was working in the counseling office, that was a stressor for all of them was, I have a life outside of this. And not just a life, but I might have children. I might have family that I'm taking care of. I might have a full time job. I have a mortgage. I have car notes to pay. There's lots of life happening outside of graduate school, especially when we have students that are coming to us who have made who have already spent time achieving a bachelor's degree or 2 or 3.

Kayla Bueby [00:16:15]: And then they're also a a person first, and they're coming to us with this incredible amount of life experience. Even if they're right out of undergraduate, they still have more responsibilities, and their life is more complex than it was right out of high school. You can imagine how much more complex it gets if you're bringing somebody in who's maybe a decade, 2, or 3 removed from a bachelor's degree program. So navigating the complexities of managing time was a huge theme in those conversations. And I think while there are some general tips that can be helpful for everybody, what you have to remember is that those general tips weren't designed with you in mind specifically. You have to take those general tips, like having an organized system for managing your time, whether that's a physical planner, a Google Calendar, a Google Doc, whatever that might be for you. You have to make it work for your life. So one of the common things I talked about, especially with some of our students who had a long commute or maybe they had children and they were driving around quite a bit, was thinking about how do we make your learning more appropriate for your style.

Kayla Bueby [00:17:20]: So our audiobook's something we can we can switch to for you. And so that you have the opportunity to listen while you're driving and really double or triple dipping on the time that you already are using for something else. How can we make this a better experience for you? So really, I think taking the general advice of good time management, staying organized, studying on a regular basis, but making sure that you understand that it can't copy and paste. You have to make that tailored for your individual experience to make it worthwhile. And not everything's gonna work for you. That's okay. The goal is to find what does, And that takes some trial and error in the process. The other big piece of that too was, as a result of that high level of stress, it's a breeding ground for additional mental health concerns.

Kayla Bueby [00:18:05]: And so, when that happens, being able to access the resources that are available to you are incredibly, incredibly important, and knowing about what resources are available to you. So at the University of Michigan Flint, our counseling office, we refer to as CAPS, Counseling and Psychological Services, is completely free for all undergraduate and graduate students. And there are remote options available for connections. You do not have to be in the Flint community or the Genesee County area to connect in person with a licensed clinician. That is part of the package of you being a student here. It was something that at my respective institutions, both at the bachelor's and the master's level, I took advantage of as a student. It was incredibly helpful. So do not at all be afraid to ask for help.

Kayla Bueby [00:18:45]: Many of the students absolutely asking for help. But if you're somebody who's considering it, please know that it is absolutely okay. It is very much supported and it can make a huge difference in your educational career to get support for your mental health and well-being throughout.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]: Great tips, and I really appreciate you sharing those. Now you've also transitioned now to working on the faculty side, and you've moved from being in an administrative role to now being in a fully educational role, being working with students that are in both the BSW and MSW programs. Talk to me about this transition for you and now what you're hoping to be able to do to be able to work with additional graduate students because you have a new MSW program that's starting this fall and what you hope to bring to those students.

Kayla Bueby [00:19:40]: Yeah. So, again, on my list of things I wanted to do was to teach one day. This is part of the reason I went into social work because there are so many different avenues for career exploration and different topics, different areas of work. So I'm so excited to have transitioned into this role and have such a passion for higher education. And this role, while it does involve instructional time, I'm predominantly administrative still and managing our practicum education program. So that strength really comes out in that regard and it's a great fit. I'm so excited about our MSW program coming. This is something that has been talked about for a long time.

Kayla Bueby [00:20:13]: We have a lot of graduates of our program that are very excited about it and members of our Flint community. I'm so excited to try to give our students at the MSW level, and really at every every level, but certainly at the MSW level, the information that I wish I would have had at that time. An empathic listening ear, a professor that feels and I did have some of this, but to continue to give them things like a professor that feels like a real person, a professor that understands and has real world clinical experience in the social and understands when we get those really gray situations that come up or a huge ethical dilemma that might be something we need to consider. And what do you do in that situation? There's a lot of hard questions in social work, and students need to feel like they have somebody within their program as a faculty member that they can talk to about that and feel comfortable not knowing and be feeling okay, being vulnerable enough to ask questions about that. So as an educator, I'm really hoping that that can that's something that shines through. That also is something I hope that shines through in our practicum education program as we really start to prepare students in their internship experience for what real life social work really looks like. Bringing the textbook to life, really putting students in situations to say, this is what it can be like day to day. How do we handle that? How do we make sure we're operating in an ethical manner? And how do we have really difficult conversations about things that might come up? In social work, in particular, it's not just the ethical dilemmas, it's not just other concerns in that regard, but the professional use of self and social work is huge.

Kayla Bueby [00:21:53]: And we all come to all of our professions with different biases, different perspectives, understandings of the world, and being able to self reflect is a huge piece of the social work process in becoming a professional. And if I can be part of that process for somebody and helping them self reflect without judgment or shame and helping them become a better professional in the future for the clients they'll serve, That ripple effect is something that I'm very much interested in being a part of, and I'm excited about preparing our students for just that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:23]: Now you've given a lot of piece of advice today, things that you've learned along the way. And I guess as you think back to your own graduate school journey, what are some other tips that you might want to give to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Kayla Bueby [00:22:38]: With graduate education, you really have to start with the end in mind. And by that, I mean, get very serious and give some very honest thought to what you do with your career. And the reason I say that is because when you get into a graduate education space, oftentimes, the degree that you're looking for needs to align with that. I've heard stories, unfortunately, of students who have gone through multiple degree programs, including graduate degrees, and then realize, oh gosh. This did not prepare me in the way that I wanted to, or this isn't what I thought it was going to be. Do that research about what you want to do on a day to day basis long after you are out of school, And make sure that the programs that you are looking at will be able to support you in those endeavors. I would hate for anybody to be in a position where they didn't fully understand the career that they were looking to get into or didn't fully understand the requirements of achieving the career that they desperately wanted to be a part of. That is something that is so critical here.

Kayla Bueby [00:23:37]: I know that that, especially in the social work world, was a very real conversation that many of the students in my cohort and my peers had because oftentimes folks felt like they just had to get an MSW because everybody else was doing that. And the reality is is that some careers in social work do not require an MSW, and you'll be spending a lot of time, money, and energy getting a degree that you don't necessarily need. Now that being said, there are a lot of careers in the social work field that do require an MSW. And so you wanna be aware of being the social work profession and others, what do you need to get you where you need to be? And how do you then find a school that they can get that can give that to you? Do not be afraid to email those professors, those program directors ahead of time and say, this is what I'm looking for. How can your program prepare me for this? And make sure that you get some very honest answers from them, so that you can make the decisions that you need to make, to make sure that you get the career and the education that you're looking for and hoping for that will hopefully prepare you for the rest of your professional life.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:39]: Well, Kayla, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Good luck on the start of the new MSW at U of M Flint, and I truly wish you all the best.

Kayla Bueby [00:24:50]: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:24:51]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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How Life's Transitions Lead to Personal Fulfillment and Professional Growth

Navigating through multiple career paths is a journey many professionals undergo. Tess Muhammad's story is no different. Starting her career as a chemist, Tess found her true calling in the field of nursing, specifically in mental health. In an enlightening conversation with Dr. Christopher Lewis on the "Victors in Grad School" podcast, Tess details her shift from chemistry to nursing, the challenges she faced, and the lessons learned along the way.

The First Transition: From Chemist to Nurse

Tess's shift from chemistry to nursing wasn't a decision made lightly. Although she enjoyed her career as a chemist, her passion for mental health grew from personal experiences with depression. In her quest for better mental health, Tess explored complementary therapies like Reiki, energy work, and traditional pharmacological treatments. This exploration guided her to nurture a deeper understanding of the human mind and its intricacies.

"Although I worked as a chemist, that was my career. My interest was actually really deeply into mental health. For personal reasons dealing with some mental health issues myself with depression and seeking out help and I did seek sought out help both ways." — Tess Muhammad

This profound interest sparked a career transition in her late thirties. Despite a secure position as a chemist, Tess enrolled in an accelerated nursing program at Oakland University. It was a leap driven by the desire to contribute to the world in a more fulfilling way.

From Working Nurse to Nursing Graduate Student

Building a career in inpatient behavioral health, Tess gained experience across various roles over a decade. However, the desire to delve deeper propelled her to pursue higher education. Encouraged by her peers and psychiatrists she worked with, she decided to attain her Doctor of Nursing Practice (DNP) degree.

"A lot of prompts from my peers. The psychiatrists that I work with just plugging it in my ear, planting the seed. You know what? I think that you would be really good if you became a practitioner and you actually are in that role." — Tess Muhammad

Facing the crossroads of choosing a graduate program, Tess initially enrolled at Wayne State University. However, the pandemic and personal loss made her reconsider her options. The need for a more flexible, supportive environment brought her to the University of Michigan, Flint.

Navigating Graduate School Transitions

Enrolling in a graduate program is a formidable challenge. Tess's experience was no different. The shift from Wayne State to the University of Michigan, Flint brought its own set of hurdles. The transition highlighted the importance of balancing health, work, and studies.

"A lot of being able to manage at U of M Flint has to do with doing things for myself first in terms of health and mental health, and then everything follows afterward." — Tess Muhammad

Tess emphasizes the necessity of maintaining one's health—physical, mental, and emotional—while undertaking graduate studies. She advocates for keeping a balanced life, incorporating regular exercise and personal time amidst academic rigors.

Applying Academic Learning to Professional Practice

The knowledge gained in graduate school isn't just theoretical for Tess. She finds immense value in applying her educational experiences to her professional work, especially in outpatient mental health settings. Learning new medications, communication techniques, and motivational interviewing has broadened her perspectives and improved patient interactions.

"Learning that in school has been very helpful in both environments…collaboration that I've been learning…is going to help me when I do practice." — Tess Muhammad

Tess’s ability to translate academic learning to real-world practice showcases the integral role of higher education in enhancing professional capabilities.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Tess offers sage advice for those contemplating graduate school. Her key takeaway is the importance of seeking balance and ensuring personal well-being alongside academic pursuits. She urges students to prioritize health and embrace activities that bring joy and relaxation.

"Always, always, always put your health first. And I'm talking whole health, not just physical, mental, emotional. Find what helps you stay balanced and what helps you stay centered." — Tess Muhammad

She also emphasizes the importance of openness and communication with faculty and program directors, especially when facing personal challenges.

Tess Muhammad’s journey from chemistry to nursing and her ongoing pursuit of higher education exemplifies resilience, adaptability, and the quest for personal fulfillment. Her story serves as an inspiration to those navigating their own career transitions and contemplating the leap into graduate education. By prioritizing personal well-being and remaining adaptable, Tess shows us the way to uncovering a fulfilling professional path that truly aligns with one's passions. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to work with you as you are going through this journey. And I always say journey every week. I know. And I tell you that it is a journey because it is a journey that you will be on as you are considering grad school, as you're in grad school, as you're preparing to complete grad school and move on into the next phase of your own career journey. And it's important.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:50]: It's important to be able to prepare yourself and prepare yourself well, to be able to know what's coming, but also to know what you can do to prepare yourself better, but also to get ready to find success, find success in that journey. And there are things that you can do from the very beginning to be able to capture that success and be able to write your own story while you're in graduate school. And that's what this show is all about. Every week I love being able to bring you different people with different experiences that have gone through those different experiences, had different opportunities provided to them, but they found success along the way. And today we got another great guest with us. Tess Mohammed is with us today. And Tess is a current student in the BSN to DNP program at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to be able to have her on to talk about her journey through this program and her journey into this program and beyond.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: So really excited to be able to have her here and to have her share that journey with you. Tess, thanks so much for being here today.

Tess Muhammad [00:02:00]: Thank you so much for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And you know, one of the things that I love doing as we start our conversations is really to turn the clock back in time, because I know that you have a couple of bachelor's degrees, and you did your first degree in chemistry from Michigan State University. And after that degree, you went off and you were a chemist for a while. And then at some point, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to change tracks. You wanted to move in a different direction for your career and go into nursing. So you went and you got a second bachelor's degree in nursing. So take me back and talk to me about that first transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:48]: And I know it's not graduate school, but I want to understand that first. Talk to me about the journey from chemist to nurse. And what made you decide that that was the route that you were gonna go?

Tess Muhammad [00:03:00]: So although I worked as a chemist, that was my career. My interest was actually really deeply into mental health. For personal reasons dealing with some mental health issues myself with depression and seeking out help and I did seek sought out help both ways. Both pharmacological and also therapy. More complementary, therapy. So much more than talk therapy. A lot of energy type work and really got into it and fell in love with the idea of understanding the mind. Understanding how we work as human beings.

Tess Muhammad [00:03:32]: Understanding what things we do to ourselves that can cause us to not be in the best mental state that we can be. And so on the outside, I'm sure at the time I looked very put together from everyone else standpoint of view. You know, I'm a chemist and I'm making my own way. But internally, there was a disconnect. We'll put it like that. I wasn't fulfilled internally. So I delve into just self help, into mental health, and every aspect of it, and every sense of wholeness from exercise, from what you put in your body, from getting assistance at times from medications, energy work, massage. Everything that you can think of plus me trust me, Reiki, I I have explored it.

Tess Muhammad [00:04:15]: So that became the group that I hung out with outside of work was people that are into that. And so I knew going into nursing that I wanted to go into nursing, and I specifically wanted to go into behavioral health before I changed to nursing. Now at the time, I was, what people would probably say now, and it's not really late in age, but I was in my late thirties, early forties making this transition. And it was kind of difficult to be like, oh, do I really want to go back to school? I have a decent career now. But I came to the conclusion that I would be better service to the universe by becoming a nurse. So that's really what led me. It was, like, personal just journey for myself to be, like, I want to present and do what I love and what I have interest in, passion for. And so there it was.

Tess Muhammad [00:04:55]: I saw the accelerated program at Oakland University and was like, you know what? I think this will work. I don't live that far from there, and I went forward. And the next thing, you know, I was here I am as a nurse. And then been working in inpatient behavioral health, acute in various forms and positions for the last 10 years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:13]: So over the last 10 years, you've gone through this career and you've built a career for yourself. And at some point during those 10 years, you had this spark. You had some inkling that you wanted to go further. You wanted to delve a little bit deeper. You wanted to continue your education. What made you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Tess Muhammad [00:05:34]: A lot of prompts from my peers. The psychiatrists that I work with just plugging it in my ear, planting the seed. You know what? I think that you would be really good if you became a practitioner and you actually are in that role. You're good at what you do on here on the floor, but we think that you're capable of it. So it just plugs Your years of working with my peers and the psychiatrist that I work with. And I started thinking about it, and I was like, okay. Maybe this is the full circle. Now I've learned being on the floor firsthand, acute.

Tess Muhammad [00:06:03]: Now getting older as well and being on the floor, it's not a good idea. Just put it like that. So I started entertaining it, and I also had peers that were also going to school at the time or in the process of about to graduate. And they were like, it's worth it. So I just went for it. Yeah. I was just like, okay. It's time.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:23]: And you did your first two degrees at 2 different institutions. And you ultimately decided that you wanted to attend the University of Michigan Flint for your BSN, the DNP program. There's a lot of DNP programs that are out there. What made you decide to attend the University of Michigan, Flint? What was going through your head as you were making that decision for yourself?

Tess Muhammad [00:06:49]: So I don't know if you know this part. I actually started off at Wayne State because a lot of my peers went I have other peers that went different places, but a few went to Wayne State. And I was like, okay. It's convenient. I'm not that far from there. And, so I started there. And, as we know, it's a brick and mortar. And at the time when I started, it was during the pandemic.

Tess Muhammad [00:07:11]: So we actually didn't have to come to class. But then, we had to come to class. Okay. So, that's not one of the only reasons that I left Wayne State. That was just part of the reason I realized the driving down, the sitting in class, it just I was working full time at the time. It just wasn't working out. And then I had some loss of mother, and emotionally I was gone. So, it was really more that that made me leave Wayne State was just like I wasn't mentally there.

Tess Muhammad [00:07:41]: And I've always promised myself I would put my mental health first over anything. You know, be the example. So I ended up leaving Wayne State. And then once I knew I was gonna go back. I wasn't sure when and then I started kind of exploring different programs and stumbled upon U of M's program and how they had it set up with you being able to go for your DNP, but also get your masters. And then it was online for the most part, asynchronous, some synchronous. And even I felt like I could go to the campus if I needed to go 3 or 4 times, it was still better than having to come, having to drive down, having to sit in a class. It was just you could do things a little bit on your own time.

Tess Muhammad [00:08:20]: And I felt like for my life, that was gonna work better. So I also knew a few people who went to undergrad at Flint, and they thought they loved the program. They're like, I'm telling you this, so you're gonna appreciate it so much more. So glad to you and Flint got in, and I I love it. Everything they said was, like, everything about it, I love. I feel like I'm supported. People respond to me quickly. I feel like I know what's going on.

Tess Muhammad [00:08:43]: I feel like it's organized. I know what's expected of me. I know what my program's gonna look like. I know when I'm gonna graduate. You know what I mean? Like, it everything's straightforward. So that's I'm glad I made that decision. I'm glad I'm okay with there being a hiccup because it led me here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:57]: As you said, you started at Wayne State, then you made another transition. You transferred and and moved over to a brand new program at a brand new institution, different type of public learning and and different type of teaching styles because it's different faculty and a different focus. So talk to me a little bit about transitions. And as you there's a transition when you go from undergrad to grad, but you not only went from undergrad to grad at Wayne State, but then you've had a second transition of actually transitioning from one grad school to a completely different grad school. So talk to me about your transitions, and what did you have to do to set yourself up for success in both of those? The one from undergrad to grad, but then also the transfer in what you had to do to be successful in that. And what have you had to do now at the University of Michigan, Flint, to maintain your success throughout your time in this program?

Tess Muhammad [00:09:59]: Well, we'll start off with Wayne State. I think Wayne State primed me for you of influence in that I would probably say a lot of us are overachievers. And so when I went to Wayne State knowing nothing about graduate school, I kinda came in with expectations that at the time necessarily weren't realistic with me working full time and going to school and grad school. That 1st semester at Wayne State was horrible for me. The balancing, the just everything about it, balancing family, balancing schoolwork, just life in general was a struggle because I had to adjust to myself. And I call it not lowering expectations. I call it changing expectations because I'm I'm not I don't lower anything. I have to change what I expect for myself.

Tess Muhammad [00:10:48]: And from Wayne State, that's what I did. I changed expectations. Meaning, what I what I needed to put as priority or what I thought I needed to put as priority needed to change. So my priority wasn't always necessarily getting the best grade on an assignment. My priority was making sure I stayed healthy, both physically and mentally. And then from there, doing the things that will help me stay healthy, then doing what I can do to make sure that I'm being successful in the class. And successful in the class may not always mean equate to an a plus, an a minus. It may be a b plus.

Tess Muhammad [00:11:25]: So because what's the old saying, if you don't have your health, you don't have anything. Like, your body is gonna decide to, hey. I'm gonna take a break. Whether you want me to know to or not, you know, I'm gonna take a break. So Wayne State got me at that place. So then when I'm trans by by the time I got to transfer, I came into U of M Flint with a whole different mindset of how I was going to manage U of M Flint, having been at Wayne State, and going through that whole process. So I definitely will say that I came into UHPlint in a much better place, much better able to prioritize work, life, family from that experience. And since then, have been doing that on specifics.

Tess Muhammad [00:12:04]: You know? Like, again, my priority is my health first. So incorporating exercise. Making sure I'm doing something for myself in the morning before I do anything else. Which, as we know, exercise, everything about that helps you. You know, it helps me focus during the day. It helps me stay awake. It helps me, deal with things better, whether it's school work or group projects or It just, it does. So for me, a lot of being able to manage at U of M Flint has to do with doing things for myself first in terms of health and mental health, and then everything follows afterward.

Tess Muhammad [00:12:41]: That's been my approach. And so far, I really it hasn't in terms of when I say grades aren't my first priority anymore. I still do okay. So it's working. I can still put myself first and my health first and still do well in school. And I think sometimes we think that it's a trade, but it's more of a balance. It's not a trade. You don't have to trade one for the other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:00]: Well, it's good to know that you do don't have to trade one thing for another, because I think that a lot of people going into grad school probably have that mindset that they think that they do have to give up something. And that sometimes can be a limiting factor of making the decision to jump, making the decision to go to graduate school, and allowing you to get that barrier outside of your head and being able to say no. You can still do the things that are important to you, and it still have those relationships to be able to do it. But it's a balancing piece of being able to understand where you have to put those priorities.

Tess Muhammad [00:13:44]: And it's not easy. I mean, it's never it's not always easy. I'm saying these are the things I do. They're honestly, just right now with my unit closing, Suddenly, I don't know what's gonna happen. You know? Am I am I gonna get a paycheck in the next 2 weeks? Am I gonna already have another position? So all those things, but you just kinda have to surrender to the situation.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:02]: There's definitely stressors that happen throughout graduate school, whether it be the things like you just said. Your unit is shutting down, and you're still having to make sure that you make it through grad school at the same time.

Tess Muhammad [00:14:16]: Exactly.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: But others, I mean, there's going to be times where life happens. You have a a loved one that passes away. You get pregnant. You you you know, life happens while you're still going through grad school. And the one thing that I would say to any student is that when life happens, you need to reach out to your faculty, you need to reach out to your program, you need to talk to them about what is happening. Don't internalize it and try to push through, because inevitably, if you do that, it's going to impact your success during that term and beyond. And at some points, you have to make decisions of whether or not you can continue on, or if you need to step back, take a term, and then come back. But you won't know what the right answer is until you can talk to your faculty, your program, about what your options actually are.

Tess Muhammad [00:15:17]: That's such a good advice because I think that a lot of students really don't look at that as an option that it's okay to step back and then come back. It's okay. But, like, most of us are just, oh, we gotta go through it straight through. It can't be anything that happens, but, no, it's okay.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:32]: And I will be honest. There are some programs that are very lockstep, and taking a step back or taking a break may mean that you're taking a year off, and you have to understand all of the ramifications of taking that step back before you make the decision. So that's why I always tell students, everyone should know. Let them into your business and let them know what you're dealing with. Because if they can't, if your faculty don't know, they can't support you. If your program doesn't know, they can't support you. They want to support you because they want you to be able to graduate. It's to our benefit to have great alums out in the community using their degree to be able to to make the world a better place, and every program is going to want to see their students succeed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:24]: So but a lot of times, when I see students not succeeding when they're struggling and trying to push through whatever is happening, some of the problems come up because they don't disclose.

Tess Muhammad [00:16:41]: They didn't reach out. That's good. That's it's good. That's good to hear. As he's like, you know it, but just the reinforcement. It's great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:47]: You're in the midst of your program. You're working through the program, and you're working at the same time, and a lot of graduate students will do that. As you've gone through these classes and you're learning all these new things, How are you finding that the information that you're learning in your classes can be utilized in the work that you do every day?

Tess Muhammad [00:17:09]: Well, in the work I do in terms of acute well, it's interesting because I'm learning that acute psych specifically versus outpatient psych are 2 different worlds. So, I mean, in that, it's going to help me when I do practice, I mean, from different medications that are being used, which makes sense because when I someone's coming in acute, they're cute. They may be acutely psychotic. They may be acutely psych suicidal. So the medications and things that we use and approach that we use is gonna be different from someone who's is being in a maintenance phase. So that in itself has been huge for me because I'm just being introduced to so many different and it's almost refreshing because being able to be outpatient and see people that are functioning and then doing what they need to do and and have a life versus when you're inpatient. You kinda get the other side of it where you feel like, man, are any of these people getting healthy? They they come back? Things like that. So that's one side of it.

Tess Muhammad [00:18:08]: A lot of the like motivational interviewing things that I'm learning, how to speak to patients, collaboration that I've been learning, definitely helpful. Helpful both inpatient and outpatient. So, in terms of communicating with different disciplines and learning that in school, that's been very helpful in both environments. But I will say, I mean, as anyone knows is in grad school, it is a bulk of information. So you kinda have to figure out how to prioritize, how to get the meat of it out, and what that can do for you and help you in your process and in your job and in your clinicals, and then keep moving. I don't know if that makes sense. And I don't know if I said it the way that I I intended, but it is a bulk of information, and it's all great information. But because it's a bulk of information, kind of streamlining, okay, this is what I need to focus on right now, and then move on to the next thing.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:06]: So you've given a lot of piece of advice today. You've talked about your own experiences, the things that you have learned and what drew you and brought you here from your first graduate program. As you think about students that are considering graduate school, no matter if it's for nursing or for any area, what are some tips that you might offer to those individuals that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Tess Muhammad [00:19:33]: The biggest advice I would say is always try to stay centered. And what I mean by that is centered is try to stay balanced in what you expect from yourself and from the program. Don't put all your energy into one area of your life. Try to balance it out. And always, always, always put your health first. And I'm talking whole health, not just physical, mental, emotional. Find what helps you stay balanced and what helps you stay centered, whether that be you going to church, that means you going to the gym, That means that you need a massage every week or you need to hang out with family and friends, once a month or or once every week. Find something that helps you stay balanced, and that brings you joy.

Tess Muhammad [00:20:23]: And make sure you do it. Don't sacrifice that or for school. Because that 1 hour or one evening that you spend with doing whatever it is you love or getting up in the morning and going for a walk every morning is, I promise, going to make everything else better and everything else, a little bit more manageable to deal with. If you find yourself completely leaving everything that you enjoyed because you have to study so much and because you have to work, at some point, it's going to be too much. You're going to be burned out. And when you get to that point, it's just your brain doesn't pick up the way it should. You're not comprehending things the way you should. There's no happiness there.

Tess Muhammad [00:21:08]: And you need to always maintain some sort of peace and happiness while you're going to this program. So that's my advice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:16]: Yeah. Well, Tess, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your advice today, for sharing your journey with us, and I truly wish you all the best as you continue in your education, as you continue toward that goal of getting your MSN and then your DNP to be able to help others the way that I know that you are trying to help them. Thanks. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:07]: I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

View Details

Graduate school is often viewed as a labyrinth that requires significant introspection and preparation. On the latest episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast, host Dr. Christopher Lewis explores this intricate path with Paula Nas, an accomplished academic and professional at the University of Michigan Flint. Paula's unique journey through both a Master's degree in Economics and a Law degree provides invaluable insights for anyone considering or currently navigating graduate education.

Embracing Challenges and Making Decisions

Paula's academic journey started at the University of Michigan Flint, where she completed her bachelor's degree in Economics. Initially torn between law and teaching, she discovered that Economics not only piqued her interest but also provided a solid foundation for law school. This excitement led her to pursue a PhD in Economics at Michigan State University, a decision influenced by the enticing offer of an assistantship.

However, the PhD program's heavy emphasis on research over teaching compelled her to pivot back to her initial goal of law school. She ultimately attended Wayne State University, a choice driven by reputation and practical considerations like commuting.

Key Takeaways:

• Being open to new and challenging fields can lead to unexpected passion and opportunities.
• Career goals might evolve, and flexibility is essential in navigating these changes.
• Practical considerations like location and support systems can significantly influence educational decisions.

Preparation and Skill Building for Graduate School

Transitioning between different graduate programs required Paula to develop effective strategies for success. The similarity between undergraduate and PhD programs made the initial shift smoother as compared to adjusting to law school, which demanded a different approach due to its larger class sizes and different educational structure.

Finding a supportive group of peers was crucial for her success in both settings. The support, encouragement, and collaborative study habits formed within these groups made significant contributions to her academic achievements.

Paula emphasizes the following:

• Patience: Adjusting to the demands of graduate school requires time.
• Support System: Whether through family, friends, or classmates, having a reliable network is indispensable.
• Practical Application: Engaging with the material beyond textbooks through community involvement and real-world applications enhances understanding and retention.

Versatility of Graduate Degrees

Paula's career showcases the versatility of a graduate education. Her diverse academic background in economics and law equipped her with a wide array of skills applicable in various professional roles. As a lecturer and now in her role at the Office of Economic Development, these degrees have been fundamental.

Applications of Graduate Degrees:

• Critical Thinking: Both fields foster analytical skills and problem-solving abilities.
• Teaching and Public Service: The broad educational experience has been pivotal in her municipal service and public policy decisions.
• Economic Development: Using economic principles and legal frameworks to facilitate community and business growth.

Drawing from her extensive experience, Paula offers several tips for those considering or currently in graduate school:

1. Patience is Key: Allow time for adjustment and avoid getting disheartened by initial challenges.
2. Build a Support Network: The journey is more manageable and enjoyable with reliable support from peers, family, and mentors.
3. Look at the Big Picture: Focus not just on immediate academic requirements but on how the acquired skills will benefit future career aspirations.
4. Enjoy the Journey: Despite the pressures, savor the learning experience and personal growth that comes with graduate education.

Paula Nas’s journey underscores the importance of adaptability, continual learning, and the practical application of diverse skills. Her story is a beacon for current and prospective graduate students, illustrating that success is not only about the destination but also about appreciating and utilizing the experiences gained along the way.

For individuals thinking about furthering their education, the University of Michigan Flint offers comprehensive programs tailored to meet both online and in-person learning preferences. For more information, prospective students can visit: UM-Flint Graduate Programs.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to the Victors in Grad School podcast. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, you and I are on a journey together. We have this opportunity every week to talk through this journey that you're either already on or that you're looking at and trying to decide for yourself, is this the right step for me? And the conversations that we have every week are an opportunity for you to add tools to your own toolbox to help you on this journey. This podcast is all about helping you find success in the journey. And I say journey because it is a journey. It is not something that's going to happen immediately.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:56]: Usually, you're going to take some time to mull this over, to figure this out, to try to figure out what is the right direction for myself, what is the right institution for myself. And as you go through that process, that journey, you're going to learn a lot about yourself, but you're also going to learn a lot about what you're looking for. And this podcast is here to help you as a resource along that path. Every week, I love being able to bring on different guests, different people that have had different experiences that can share those experiences with you to help you to again add tools to your toolbox. So this week we got another great guest with us today. Paula Nas is with us today, And Paula is the director of the office of University Outreach for the University of Michigan Flint. And she's been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years doing a number of different things along the years. But along that journey, she has gotten a number of different degrees.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: She got her bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan, Flint, then went on and got a master's degree in economics from Michigan State University and then a law degree from Wayne State University. So we're going to talk about her own journey and be able to learn from her. Paula, thanks so much for being here today.

Paula Nas [00:02:12]: Thanks so much for the invitation, Chris. I appreciate it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:15]: It is my pleasure. I love being able to have you here today and for you to share this journey. As I said, you went on a journey yourself. You went from that bachelor's degree in economics from the University of Michigan Flint, and at some point, at some point in that journey when you were getting that degree from the University of Michigan Flint, you made a decision whether it was right at the same time or a little bit after, that you wanted to continue, wanted to continue on to get the master's degree in economics. Let's first talk about that jump and what made you decide that you wanted to continue on to get that master's degree?

Paula Nas [00:02:52]: That's a great question. You know, I was in the honors program at U of M Flint studying economics. Initially, though, when I entered U of M Flint as an undergraduate, I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. Growing up, I always thought I'd either wanna be a lawyer or I'd wanna be a teacher. Early on, as I was kind of pursuing that path towards a law degree, somebody had mentioned to me that, you know, economics is one of the best majors that you can have to get into law school. So I said, well, I hadn't really heard much about economics. You know, growing up, it never really was a word or a class we used at the time. But I said, if that's my way to get to law school, that's what I'm going to do.

Paula Nas [00:03:27]: So I enrolled in an economics class and I found it to be one of the most challenging classes I had, but also one of the most fascinating. As I continued along the degree program, I grew more and more to like economics and appreciate the different facets of the profession. So, when it came time to graduate, I said to myself, I can either go to law school or I can pursue a PhD in economics. So, I took the GRE and I took the LSAT, and I performed pretty well in both of them, to be honest with you. And I applied to law schools and graduate schools, and Michigan State offered me a deal I really couldn't pass up to enter their PhD program in economics. That's what I did. I had an assistantship that paid for the program. So again, I started in the PhD program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:11]: So at one point you started the PhD program, but you ended up with a master's. So along the way, you made a decision that you didn't want to continue to complete the PhD and you pivoted. And you went back to that initial goal, that initial idea that you wanted to get that law degree. What made you decide to pivot, not get the PhD? And what made you decide that you wanted to move back to that initial goal, like you said, of getting that law degree?

Paula Nas [00:04:42]: I love the program at Michigan State. Really, I was there because I wanted to teach phonemix. And what I quickly realized was that this was more of a research pursuit than a teaching pursuit. And the whole kind of publish or perish, you know, fear got to me. And I said to myself, I really want to teach, but this isn't really what this is about. So I think I'm gonna go back and reconsider law school, at which point I applied to law school and then I entered Wayne State Law School.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: I guess one of the questions that comes to mind is that you kind of mentioned the fact that you decided that you wanted to go to Michigan State because they offered you a deal that you couldn't refuse. And then at some point during the choice of going to law school, you did make the choice to ultimately attend Wayne State University for law school. And there's a lot of different law schools that are out there. And you said you did well on the LSAT. So there probably were a number of options for you in that regard as well. So talk to me about as you looked at law school, and you were making the decisions for where you were planning to attend for law school, what made you ultimately decide that you wanted to attend Wayne State University?

Paula Nas [00:05:49]: Going back a little bit on how I ended up with my master's, completed all of the coursework for the PhD and had begun the process of taking the preliminary examinations. And then, you know, I decided to make the switch. I was engaged at the time, and then I was married. And at that time, I realized that I I needed to find a law school basically that I could commute to. And Wayne State has an excellent reputation. Their pass rate for the bar is very high. They have great faculty, wonderful programs. And, you know, that was one of the determining factors.

Paula Nas [00:06:18]: And indeed, when I was in law school, 1st year of law school, we welcomed our 1st bundle of joy during the 1st week of our final exams for the 1st year of law school. And, you know, my husband and family, they were very supportive. We decided I would still finish law school. And then second bundle of joy came, and I started to realize that I probably was gonna need to pivot and that I love teaching. I started part time at U of M Flint while I was still at law school, and I really decided that was a career for me. So I I did finish law school, but I began to teach part time at U of M Flint, which I was very fortunate. It eventually led into a full time lecturer position.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:54]: So you finished up law school. And one of the things you said earlier was someone had told you initially that economics was the best major to allow for you to go to law school? Now I worked at a law school for about 10 years, so I saw many different majors. And I always tell students there's not one right major for a student to go into law school. But talk to me about that advice that you got. And you did do that pathway of economics. How did you find that that degree prepared you, ultimately, for going through law school?

Paula Nas [00:07:28]: I like to tell my students now when I teach economics that, you know, the discipline of economics really prepares you for all decisions you can make in life. So, you know, fundamental to economics is that, you know, we assume that people are rational. Before you make a decision, you compare costs and benefits. We all know that economics is a very analytical profession. And I think that's what really helped me prepare for law school and then to succeed in law school. And I still use all of those tools and all those models. And as you say, the toolbox that you mentioned, I use it in everything I do. And indeed, lawyers use it all of the time.

Paula Nas [00:08:03]: So, you know, it helped me initially to get that preparation to take the LSAT and do well on the exam. And then it really kind of, at the time, set me apart from some of my peers in law school because everybody had a different preparation. But to your point, I think that people assume, and nothing against a pre law degree, but I think people assume if they're gonna go to law school, they need a pre law degree. And in my mind, that just isn't the case. As long as you have a good solid preparation and something that gives you those tools to be able to analyze different kinds of situations, whether that be economics or business or philosophy or whatever that is, I think you're well prepared for law school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:40]: I would completely agree with you. I would say to any student that you don't need to be a poli sci major. You don't need to be a pre law major. And to be honest, if you want to go to law school, it'd probably be better to have a degree in some other area in case down the road you decide you don't wanna use the law degree and you want to fall back on something else, that having something that is completely different is not a bad thing. But I would say the same thing if somebody wanted to teach. And I tell students, okay, you wanna be a history teacher. Well, if you're going to be a history teacher, you should get a certification in something completely different than history because I always tell students, how many history teachers were there in your school district? Only probably you probably could count them on one hand in regards to your middle and high school unless you're from a very big district. Same thing there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:30]: So I would tell students all the time that having a degree in some other area that challenges you, that pushes you to be able to learn good writing skills, good thinking skills, and being able to understand ethics, being able to understand some philosophical concepts, being able to communicate well, all of those factors are things that law schools are gonna be looking for, and that can help you in that as well. So completely agree with you there, but I was interested to just kind of get your perspective now that you are a number of years out from that and looking back itself. Now you made 2 different transitions into 2 different types of programs, 2 different schools that offered you 2 different types of education, because the way that they teach you in a PhD program is going to be very different than the way that they teach in a law program. And as you made those distinct transitions into those different schools, into those different types of programs, you had to find ways to set yourself up for success, both at the beginning and throughout the entire journey. Can you talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success in both of those situations?

Paula Nas [00:10:40]: So I think it was easier to make the transition between undergrad degree to PhD because it's a very similar kind of program as you know. It's really good to find a group of cohorts that you can trust and work closely with. The transition to law school was a little more difficult, much bigger programs. We were separated into classes of maybe a 100 each, more classes during the week. But still you need to find a group of peers that you can study with, work together with, be able to trust, bounce ideas against in order to be able to succeed. But I don't really think I figured that out in law school until maybe the 2nd year, and once I figured out, everything was much easier. So I guess I would say to anybody who's making that transition, don't give up because eventually it's going to fall into place. But it does take a little time to get the hang of it, I would say.

Paula Nas [00:11:30]: The other thing is going back to my experience at U of M Flint, excellent professors, small classes, we were really encouraged to do our absolute best. Then I really have to also, in addition to the economics department, give a shout out to the honors program. But the time and still now, a lot of our research capabilities and our discipline and writing abilities can be attributed to some of the lessons and some of the information we get in the honors program. So they were also instrumental in my college graduate school and postgraduate school success.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:03]: You went on, you got involved as a lecturer. You've worked for the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years. And you're utilizing your degrees in different ways, both as a educator as well as in your role in outreach for the university itself. So both of these programs prepared you in different ways. But as you look back at the education that you got in that PhD program, and the law degree that you received, how do you feel that the graduate degrees helped you to prepare for the work that you're doing today?

Paula Nas [00:12:37]: I think I had a very broad education, starting with the honors program and then several different fields within economics, and then moving on to law. I mean, all of those apply to everything I'm doing today. And as you think about it as a student, an undergrad, sometimes you're just trying to graduate. You're trying to get through the next exam. As you approach graduate school, school, I think really things really have to change. So in my mind, you really have to think about not real specifics. You need to be more of a generalist, I would say, and really think about what the bigger picture is. And I tried to absorb what I needed to, not just what I was learning that day.

Paula Nas [00:13:12]: So I reached out to different friends, different faculty, different community and business organizations, and those connections as I was in school, working together side by side, not just reading the textbook, but applying it to real world situations. I think that's what really helped me along the way, and it continues to help me. So I've noticed since I have the position in what was the Office of University Outreach, now the Office of Economic Development. I use those skills on a daily basis. You think when you're in graduate school or an undergrad, started with, how important it is to have learned those skills along the way. You start to realize as you pivot and as your journey continues, often far away from what you started with, how important it is to have learned those skills along the way, and you really start to value them as you get farther and farther in your career and in your public life. I also served on a local city council, and the skills I learned as an economist and as somebody who went to law school, I can't imagine not having those skills as I sat down and had to make some of those public policy decisions.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: Now this show is all about success, and you've offered a number of things that you did to find success in that journey yourself. And as you look back to your own different journeys in graduate education, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Paula Nas [00:14:35]: I would say be patient. Don't give up. Realize, you know, it takes time to adjust to graduate school. I would say find some valuable friends that can help you along the way because you need a support system, whether that's your family or your friends or somebody in the community. You really need to have kind of those cheerleaders who will help you get through. And look at the big picture. Don't always focus on what you'll have to do to get through. Focus on how all of these skills will help you in the future.

Paula Nas [00:15:01]: And really, it's hard to tell somebody this as they're going through it because we know graduate school isn't easy, but try to enjoy the journey. Just like when students start with their undergraduate degree, we tell them, oh, make sure you have fun. This is the best 4 years of your life. And a lot of people are saying, I don't believe that. So I'm not necessarily saying those will be the best years of your life, but those will be the years when you develop those skills that you will take with you in your individual life and also in your future careers.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:27]: Well, Paul, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing both of the journeys that you went on in your graduate education, because I'm sure that individuals that are thinking about graduate school can take so many nuggets from the pieces that you're sharing and things that you had to learn along the way. And I wish you all the best.

Paula Nas [00:15:47]: Thanks so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:48]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Pursuing higher education is often seen as a straight path, but for many, it is a winding journey filled with unexpected turns. In this week's Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Shanna Haver joined us and shared her enlightening journey from social work to earning her doctorate in occupational therapy. Her experiences impart valuable lessons for anyone considering graduate school, especially those contemplating a career pivot.

From Social Work to Occupational Therapy: A Non-Linear Path

Dr. Shanna Haver began her educational journey studying social work at Eastern Michigan University and gained extensive experience working with Catholic Social Services and the shelter system in Ann Arbor. However, discontentment with the systemic limitations of social work led her to a transformative sailing trip, sparking her passion for occupational therapy. She realized she wanted to pursue a doctorate, drawn by the promise of deeper knowledge and broader opportunities to impact people's lives directly.

"As a social worker, people were coming to me for resources that I had no control over...as an occupational therapist, your brain is that tool," Dr. Haver elaborated, emphasizing the empowerment this new role provided her.

Choosing the Right Program

Deciding on the University of Michigan Flint's Occupational Therapy Doctorate (OTD) program was not an arbitrary choice. It was the first of its kind in Michigan and relatively close to her home in Ypsilanti. Factors such as program structure, curriculum, and faculty expertise played significant roles in her decision.

"I realized that it's only six more months [for a doctorate compared to a master's]... it gives you the tools and empowerment," she noted, highlighting that the additional commitment was well worth the knowledge and authority the doctorate conferred.

Thriving Amidst the Pandemic: Challenges and Adaptation

Starting her program in the thick of the COVID-19 pandemic, Dr. Haver had to adapt to a predominantly online learning environment. She emphasized the importance of understanding one’s learning style to succeed in such challenges. Whether through creating a dedicated study space, forming study groups, or maintaining a routine, she underscored the need for flexibility and perseverance.

"Learning your learning style, dedicating to your tasks, and not allowing yourself to fall into procrastination... were essential," Dr. Haver advised, shedding light on the many ways she ensured she stayed on track.

Using Past Experience to Fuel Future Success

Dr. Haver’s diverse work background—from bartending to social work—provided her with a unique perspective and skill set, which she leveraged throughout her academic journey and beyond. Her varied experiences allowed her to connect with people more effectively and navigate different professional scenarios with ease.

"My background is so vast...volunteering with children with special needs to bartending, these experiences shaped my passion for helping people," she explained, showcasing how every job she held played a role in her development.

Post-Graduate Success and Ongoing Learning

After earning her OTD, Dr. Haver took on multiple roles, including home health occupational therapist and consultant. She continues to evolve, working on a patent and conducting research, demonstrating that learning and professional development are continuous processes.

"The program prepared me for knowing a little about a lot...it's up to you and your professional development plan to always keep growing," she said, reflecting on the lasting impact her education has had on her career.

Tips for Future Graduate Students

Drawing from her journey, Dr. Haver offers practical advice for those considering graduate school:

1. Understand Your Learning Style: Identify if you are an in-person or visual learner and tailor your study habits accordingly.
2. Stay Organized and Proactive: Use tools like checklists to manage assignments and track your progress.
3. Leverage Your Network: Don’t hesitate to reach out to mentors and peers. Building a supportive network is crucial.
4. Keep Your Long-Term Goals in Mind: Remember why you started and stay focused on your end goals, even when the journey gets tough.
5. Embrace Lifelong Learning: Accept that graduate education is just the beginning. Keep pushing the boundaries of your knowledge and skills.

Dr. Shanna Haver’s story is a testament to the power of resilience, passion, and continuous learning. For those contemplating graduate school or a career change, her experiences provide a roadmap for navigating the complexities and finding fulfillment through education. Whether you're at the beginning of your journey or well on your way, her insights remind us that growth often comes from taking bold steps outside our comfort zones. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, you and I are on a journey together. We have an opportunity every week to be able to look at this journey that you're on. And I say journey because it is a journey. And you might be at the very beginning thinking about graduate school, thinking about, is this the right thing for me? Should I do this? I don't know how I'm going to do this. You might also be in grad school already and looking to be able to push through and get to the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:46]: And you might be toward the end where you see that light at the end of the tunnel, getting ready for your career and being at that point where you're making that next step in your professional journey. No matter where you are, it is a journey. And there are things that you can do to be able to prepare yourself well, to find success in that journey. And that's what this podcast is all about. It's all about helping you, providing you with resources, and allowing you to learn from others that have gone before you, that have gone through graduate school, found success, and have some resources, have some tips, have some things that they can share with you to help you in this journey that you're on. Really excited every week also to bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you, that have had the opportunity to go to graduate school, have come out on the end being successful. And today is no different. We have another great guest with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:39]: Doctor. Shanna Haver is with us today. And today we're gonna be talking to her about her journey. She got her doctorate degree in occupational therapy from the University of Michigan Flint. We're going to talk about that journey that she went on to be able to find the program that she wanted to go into, find the career that she wanted to go through and go into, and be able to give you some resources, give you some ideas, some thoughts, some tools for your toolbox that you can use to be able to help yourself in the future. Shanna, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:02:08]: Thank you, Christopher, for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:10]: I really appreciate you being here today. And I love being able to start our episodes with an opportunity to turn the clock back in time. And I know that you did your undergraduate work at Eastern Michigan University. You were studying social work. And at some point during that journey, at some point during that experience there, or even during your time at Oakland Community College studying sign language, you had an opportunity to be able to think to yourself, I wanna go further. I wanna continue my education. And you decided to go into occupational therapy. I guess, 1st and foremost, take me back and talk to me about what it was that made you first decide that you wanted to go to graduate school?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:02:51]: Yeah. Of course. So my journey is not linear. It is not typical. I graduated in 2013 with my undergrad in social work at Eastern Michigan University. And from there, I started my social work career working with Catholic Social Services, working with what they call core morbid clients that are dealing with both the mental health diagnosis as well as a substance abuse, diagnosis, and then transitioned into working for the shelter system. So working for the Delaunay Center in Ann Arbor where I was the service center coordinator. So working with people that would come in and not necessarily have a residential bed at the shelter, but still wanna do participate in that program as far as ending their homelessness.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:03:34]: And then I transitioned to working for community mental health here in Washtenaw, and I wasn't there for months. And I was like, this is not what I'm here to do. I found myself just completing a lot of paperwork and being told I was doing too much. So went back to the shelter and stayed there for the better part of 7 years. And I like to brag that the nonresidential program that I was a part of actually housed more folks than those in the residential program. So when consumers would come, I'd always tell us, like, my goal is to get you in your own bed before a bed here becomes available. So helping working on that social work empowerment. I was given the opportunity to go on an adventure with a friend who called me up and was like, hey.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:04:16]: I know you like sailing and we're taking a tall ship from Maine to Key West in October. And it's like, okay. I got some weeks I can, you know, plan out. Let's go for it. Somehow, 2 weeks turned into a month because of weather, and I was really just finding myself 100 miles offshore with nothing but horizon horizon and maybe a few freighters on the tall ship Appledore 2, where I really just kind of found myself falling in love with the water, falling in love with the waves and how nothing else mattered on shore. Even though in the back of my head, it's like, oh my gosh. I'm gonna get fired because I told my manager I was only gonna be gone for 2 weeks, and this adventure has taken the better part of a month. And so, long story short, got to Key West, came back to the shelter, and I was at Delaunas for about 2 more months and realized that this cubicle position in a county organization was just not for me because I was frustrated.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:05:10]: And I was frustrated with being a social worker and having all of these tools to help someone better their situation and empower their moments, but only really being as effective as, I guess the resources I had access to was really kind of my glass ceiling that I kept hitting. So realizing that when I was going for like clinical team meetings at hospitals, it's like, oh, you're a social worker. They're like, no. I'm an occupational therapist, but people don't need job coaching. Like, they already have a job. And then that's when I learned, like, what an actual occupational therapist did and how it's so much more than just the perceived notion of job coaching. So decided to pursue master's degree. And when I was doing my shadowing, I always like to ask my peers.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:05:52]: It's like, hey. You know, what was the 1 thing that you wish that you would have done differently in your educational career or in the beginning of your, you know, actual career after graduating. And 2 people specifically stated they wish they went all the way for their doctorate. And so that's where I discovered that University of Michigan Flint was actually 1 of the first doctorate programs in Michigan, and it actually wasn't that horribly far away from Ypsilanti, Michigan. So that's where I decided to pursue my doctorate in occupational therapy.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:06:18]: And that was really 1 of the other questions because there are opportunities to be able to get both a master's, an MSOT, a master's in occupational therapy, as well as a doctorate in occupational therapy. And the University of Michigan Flint was the first program in the state of Michigan, but it sounds like the 1 of the main factors in your decision was that, was looking for that OTD versus the MSOT. Were there any other factors that you thought of, that you considered as you were looking at different programs for for yourself?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:06:46]: Sure. I just I realized being in my thirties, I mean, I started my OT program when I was 33, and I was like, this is it. Like, we're not changing careers again. My early life crisis is going to be the only 1 that I have. And so just kind of looking at the opportunities of an MSOT and an OTD and realizing that it's only 6 more months. I mean, granted, the program is there's nothing about that program that is only it was very intense, but it gives you the tools and the empowerment to be like, okay, if you don't know it, here's the skills that you need to hit the research, hit the medical literature, the networking opportunities of doing all the different outings and engagements with the program to help empower you to be that resource. So the 1 thing that was frustrating as a social worker is that it seemed that unless you're going into therapy, your resources in the community was actually what measured your impactfulness, where as an occupational therapist, your brain is that tool. So if it's not enough, it's up to you and your professional development plan to always keep growing and always keep learning.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:07:49]: You know, even now just as a new a new OT in the career, it's like I'm finding myself in situations that weren't necessarily covered all in-depth during the program. So I'm reaching back out to my mentors. It's like, where can I find more information about, you know, this diagnosis, this condition, these interventions? And it's all at your fingertips. You know, you hit the literature, hit the research, hit your networking and your peer supports, and you are the resource. There is no glass ceiling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:14]: So you made the choice. You decided to change careers, move from social work into occupational therapy. You jumped into that program. That program is a full time program. So you go in with a cohort of other students, and you're working along for those 3 years as you're learning about becoming an occupational therapist, building those skills to prepare yourself for the future. As you made that transition in and you were identifying for yourself some of those first and foremost things, talk to me about what you had to do to set yourself up for success. And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout the graduate program, especially after not being in school for a number of years?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:08:58]: The preparation was nothing of what I expected because I started this program in August of 2020. So we were in full blown pandemic and being a new program and everyone not knowing what to do with the pandemic, it was a lot of ebb and flow. So I met my faculty and my cohort on a Zoom call, and then I quickly realized that I do not have the attention to sit at the computer and look at a screen. I am an in person learner. I'm a hands on learner. So having to, first off, figure out what type of learner you are, what do you require from your educators, what do you require from your classmates to support you. And then also working from home as a student into making that space, making that routine. So I was lucky enough to have a home where I could be like, yep.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:09:46]: This is my desk. And when I sit down and sit at this computer, I'm going to stay here for x amount of time until I get these tasks done. And then just having that having that dedication to your tasks and not allowing yourself to just fall into that procrastination. Because if there's anything that I can tell anyone that wants to go under a doctorate program, you will get overwhelmed by the list of assignments and projects and having multiple different group projects going on at the same time. I've never had such a heavy caseload as I did in the doctorate program, but I also look back on reflecting it is that just giving myself grace because we were going through a pandemic. We're being forced to learn in a non typical way, and our only on campus learning for the 1st semester was our anatomy lab, but then our anatomy lecture was online. And so it was very interesting. So I would say learning your learning your learning style, you know, what type of learner are you? I realized that I couldn't just sit and read.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:10:44]: I needed to print out, highlight, handwrite, whether that was handwriting on my tablet or just taking the time to do that, you know, manual writing because I knew that's how I was gonna retain information. And then also just working out a core study group with my classmates because everything was online and on screens. It's like, I I just don't wanna be at screens anymore. They wanna be in person. So then getting that group together that you can actually sit and teach each other and ask questions and bounce questions off of. And I guess the last part would just be to remember that your instructors are humans too. They didn't just magically appear as instructors knowing everything. So getting to know your instructors journey? Or what was 1 thing you wish you did? So that would be where I would start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:31]: So as you're going through this program, you already have had a career, you have a different career, a different pathway that you'd studied prior to going into occupational therapy. Not every student is going to take that leap to be able to pivot and to move in a different direction. I'd love your perspective. And as you were going through this program, how did that background in social work, how did that work experience help you to find success? And how did you draw from that past experience to, again, find success in that journey that you were on?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:12:06]: My background is so vast. I if you were to look at my resume before I became a social worker, it was eclectic. Eclectic. I was a jack of many trades, master of nothing. Everything from bartending to hotel front desk work to working in a quick lube shop to being working at CVS. It was it was all over the place. And so taking my varied background of knowing a little about a lot and realizing that I love engaging with people. I mean, even as a 14 year old, I volunteered with it was a 4 h project program called Bloom, where I believe I was 14, 15.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:12:43]: We're volunteering with children that were at the local, what they call a focus school or special ed program. And all we did was plant flowers together. So I think that's kinda where I got my passion of wanting to help people, and I've always wanted to people. It's always been kind of a personal motto of leave something better than how you found it, and that includes people also. And so realizing as a social worker that people were coming to me for resources that I had no control over. It's like once this financial pot has ran out, I'm really just sitting here kind of pointing you in directions, but not really benefiting you, so to speak, because I did not wanna go into therapy. And that seemed to be the focus of social work is that you didn't wanna focus on resources that you were basically utilizing, then you had to go into therapy. So as an occupational therapist, I mean, OTs, they deal with everything, daily activities, whether it's like completing tasks or organizing or problem solving, decision making, controlling emotions, any of those, like, life management skills and anything that helps with creating, like, those coping strategies to, like, get that independence, those are all things that can come from your brain.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:13:44]: Those are all skills and interventions that you can learn in the program or by diving into the research. And so just kind of being that support system for someone to help them better their situation and realizing that where they're at right now is not the end was super empowerful for me. So volunteering at the local, brachial plexus clinic here in Ann Arbor kinda kept me on the front lines and engaged with people even though it was during the pandemic and very isolating. It just kinda let me not lose focus of the end goal. It's like at the end goal, I'm gonna be doing this and the other thing. It may have absolutely nothing to do with this 15 page neuroanatomy paper that I'm working on right now, but just learning how you're gonna apply that to your future and not losing track of, like, that 3 year plan or that 4 year plan. It's like, where do you see yourself in 4 years And what are you learning right now to help make that future picture more clear?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:35]: Now you've gotten the degree. You've been out in the field now for a little bit of time, and you are still very involved and very active and have a lot of things going on. So now that you've completed that degree, how do you feel that the program prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:14:52]: The program prepared me for, as I said, knowing a little bit about a lot. So whether it is the conditions, whether it is the life development, whether it's, like, the anatomy, kinesiology aspect of things, the program did a really good job of giving you that intro level taste, so to speak, on all these different things. And so it's kind of up to you personally to figure out what you want to focus on and what sort of professional development plan you're going to pursue because they don't teach you everything. I mean, just last week, I'm talking to a faculty still at U of M. It's like, I just found this patient. This is their condition. This is their barriers. Point me in the right direction.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:15:34]: And that's where she connected me with another OT that actually works with this population as her main focus. So learning how to network, not being afraid to ask for help because the program does a great job of teaching you how to network, throwing you out there, and teaching you how you can kind of do that task analysis, do that environment analysis, and use all these different tools that they teach you, figure out what needs to be done, and then empowering you to pursue the solution, even if you may not be that full solution.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:05]: Now as you look back at your graduate education, you're now, as I said, you're very busy. You've got a number of different jobs that you're doing in regards to remote work that you're doing, in grant work, you are a home health occupational therapist in your local area. You've got a lot going on. As you look back at your graduate education, and you look at the work that you're doing now, and you think about others, whether they are thinking about going to get a doctorate in occupational therapy or just going to graduate school in some other area, What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:16:48]: I'm a huge moto person. I actually have a portion of my kitchen wall spray painted with chalkboard chalk paint, and I write mottos. I write quotes. I write inspirations so that as I'm sitting on my counter drinking my cup of coffee, it's almost like an affirmation thing. And 1 motto that really got me through is don't forget why you started. And the follow-up to that is everything you're going through is preparing you for what you asked for. There's many times I looked at that. I was like, I don't know what I asked for, but it was not to go through all of this.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:17:19]: Because there are gonna be moments you're gonna be super overwhelmed and super checked out, and just learning how to keep yourself moving forward. Even if it's 3 steps back and then 4 steps forward, you're still moving forward. You're still improving your current situation, and you're still pursuing your goal. So to not lose faith because there are times you'll be super overwhelmed. You're like, what does this have to do? This instructor doesn't get me. This homework assignment is really overwhelming. So just keep moving forward. Even if, as I said, like me, not linear.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:17:47]: I was the 2nd oldest person in my cohort. So I felt super aged out of my program because it's like, oh my gosh. You just early life crisis, and now you're here with all these younger people. And then I actually found a classmate that was older than me and then another classmate that was my same age. So getting to know your cohort, like, they're going through the exact same thing. You don't know what else they're dealing with, but they're right there learning everything brand new. Also, don't forget about the power and the feel good emotion of a checklist because I would have my little flip pen and it would be full. It would be full 2 pages worth, but just having that gratification of crossing things off your list and then hanging on to it because you'll have weeks where you're like, oh my gosh.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:18:29]: I can't do this. I don't know how I'm gonna handle this. But then you kinda, like, flip back through the pages. It's like, oh my gosh. This time last month, I was doing so much more, and I knocked it out because it's all crossed up. I didn't fill that semester because I'm here at this semester. So kind of keeping those empowerment tools would be a really big thing and save everything. Don't delete anything.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:18:48]: Keep everything because there will be a moment that you will be in another class. You're like, dang, that 1 class on that 1 lecture, but you couldn't remember exactly what that PowerPoint slide had. So whether it is printing everything into OneNote, whether it is organizing Google Drive, whatever your thing is, is keep everything so that you can control f it later and build up your resources. And also just making sure that you just keep moving forward and give yourself grace because you're doing something you've never done before. And there's a reason you started, and don't forget why you did it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:21]: Well, Shanna, I just wanna say thank you for sharing that. I completely agree with the last thing that you just said. And 1 thing to keep in mind for you as you go through graduate school is that as you're going through, there are those notes, there are resources, there are things that you're going to learn that you may end up having or wanting to refer back on. Sometimes you might be compelled to saying, okay, I'm done with that term. I don't need it anymore. But realize that many times you're going to relate back to those things in your career. And that by keeping some of those things along the way, you're not having to start from square 1. That doesn't mean you need to keep it forever, but it means that down the road that, yes, there are going to be things that you're gonna wanna do to be able to relate back to that, to refer back to that, to be able to help you in that journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:15]: So keep that in mind as well. But, Shanna, thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today. Thank you for all the resources that you've shared and the experience that you've had thus far and your willingness to be able to help others along the way. And I wish you all the best.

Dr. Shanna Haver [00:20:29]: Thank you so much. I really appreciate this opportunity. And like I said, even if your journey is not linear, just keep it moving forward. I mean, if you would've talked to me 5 years ago, I could've never told you that I would have graduated from a doctorate program, been referred to as doctor Haver, been consulted as an environment modification, I guess, knowledge. And having started my own LLC and have a current patent pending on an autonomy doc because trying to convince the general public that accessibility is not the only thing that is not the bar to reach. Let's go past accessibility, and that's what I'm currently working with a study with Kennedy Krieger and a grant from the National Disability System and DHS. And I would have never done any of this if I hadn't actually taken that leap and step 1 step out of my comfort zone. So don't forget why you started and just turn your passions into your career, and you'll be fulfilled.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:25]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu forward slash graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Discover the keys to success in graduate education, making informed decisions, and leveraging resources effectively.

Graduate school can be both a thrilling and daunting journey, filled with challenges and opportunities that require strategic planning, resilience, and a clear set of goals. In a recent episode of “Victor's in Grad School” hosted by Dr. Christopher Lewis, Dr. Justin Grimes shared his rich experiences and valuable insights into what it takes to navigate graduate school effectively. Below are key takeaways from the episode, expanded to help you prepare for your graduate journey.

The Decision to Pursue Graduate Education

Dr. Grimes’ educational journey started at the University of Arkansas, where he realized his passion for student affairs. Initially interested in computer science, he pivoted to student affairs after attending the NASPA conference in Washington, D.C. The experience was transformative, helping him see a future beyond a cubicle-bound career, and eventually led him to pursue advanced degrees. His decision underscores the importance of discovering your true interests and aligning them with your career goals.

Key Points:

• Exploration: Attend conferences and networking events to discover career paths.
• Passion: Align your graduate studies with what energizes and interests you.
• Mentorship: Seek advice from mentors who can guide your academic and career decisions.

Transitioning Through Different Degree Levels

From undergraduate to master’s and then to a doctorate, each degree level demanded different skills, expectations, and adjustments from Dr. Grimes. His journey also highlights the importance of adaptability, a support system, and resilience. The transition also involved making a strategic choice to stay at the University of Arkansas for his Master's due to familiarity and resources before moving on to the University of Georgia for his PhD due to networking and alumni experiences.

Key Points:

• Adaptability: Be ready to manage increased workloads and deeper academic engagements.
• Support System: Leverage familial, collegial, and professional networks to navigate transitions.
• Adaptability: Embrace and adapt to the unique demands of each educational level.

Importance of Asking the Right Questions

Inspired by his journey, Dr. Grimes authored a book titled “20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School.” This resource addresses the myriad of questions prospective graduate students often overlook, such as funding, degree requirements, and long-term career goals. By addressing these questions early, students can make more informed decisions and avoid common pitfalls.

Key Points:

• Informed Decisions: Assess your personal and professional goals against the realities of graduate education.
• Financial Planning: Understand all financing options and create a realistic budget.
• Resources: Utilize books and guides to navigate the application and preparation process.

Overcoming Challenges and Achieving Success

The road to a graduate degree is littered with academic and personal challenges. Dr. Grimes candidly shared how he had to tackle personal setbacks, like managing his father’s health issues while pursuing his PhD. His advice revolves around accepting the reality of difficulties, planning for them, and finding ways to manage them effectively.

Key Points:

• Resilience: Cultivate a mindset that can withstand academic and personal upheavals.
• Planning: Be proactive in planning for both expected and unexpected challenges.
• Community: Engage with academic communities to find support and encouragement.

Innovating Through Knowledge and Networking

One notable aspect of Dr. Grimes’ journey is the way he used his degree to bridge gaps between academia and professional practice. His work involves not only understanding but also reformulating academic insights to benefit those outside traditional academic circles.

Key Points:

• Bridging Gaps: Use your graduate education to translate complex ideas into practical applications.
• Networking: Build relationships within and beyond your academic community.
• Continuous Learning: Embrace lifelong learning and be open to new opportunities.

Tips for Success in Graduate Education

To conclude, Dr. Grimes shared a few essential tips for those considering or currently in graduate programs:

1. Clarify Your Goals: Understand why you are pursuing graduate education and how it fits into your career trajectory.
2. Budget Wisely: Financial planning cannot be overstated. Know your expenses and funding sources.
3. Skill Assessment: Identify your strengths and skills to better position yourself for academic and professional success.
4. Support Networks: Build and maintain strong support systems both in and out of academia.
5. Enjoy the Journey: Amidst the stress, find moments to celebrate your progress and enjoy the learning experience.

Graduate school is a deeply personal journey filled with growth, discovery, and the occasional setback. As Dr. Grimes' experiences highlight, success in graduate education is not just about academic excellence but also about making informed choices, fostering resilience, embracing change, and building strong support networks. For those taking the plunge into graduate studies, his book, “20 Questions to Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School,” is a must-read to navigate this transformative journey effectively. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:12]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk to you, work with you as you are either looking at the possibility of grad school, going through graduate school, getting ready to graduate from grad school. No matter where you are, everybody is on a journey as you consider this thing called grad school. And you don't have to do it alone. And that's the thing that every week I try to bring to you and I try to impardon you is that there are so many people that have gone before you, that have had similar experiences, different experiences, doesn't really matter because they've gone through grad school. They've experienced it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:00]: They've learned, and they've lived it. And through that, they've been successful. That's why every week I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have different experiences that they can share with you that'll help you on the journey that you're on. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor Justin Grimes is with us today, and doctor Grimes is the owner and chief executive officer of Stick With It LLC. And we're gonna be talking about his own journey in going through graduate school as well as a brand new book that he wrote called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. And we've talked about things to think about, things to consider, but I'm always looking for more resources, so here's another resource for you. So we're gonna talk about that too.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:46]: Justin, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:01:48]: Thank you so much. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:50]: It is my pleasure. Really excited to have you here today and to learn a little bit more from you. And first and foremost, I love turning the clock back in time, so I'm gonna go back. Quite a few years, I wanna go back to the University of Arkansas. You did your undergraduate work at the University of Arkansas. And at some point during that work on your bachelor of business administration and working on some studies in computer science, you made a decision. You made a decision that you wanted to continue on and get a master's degree. Talk to me about what was going through your head and why you made the choice that you wanted to get that graduate degree?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:02:29]: You had a unique opportunity very early on to attend several conferences and events. And one of those that I attended for those who work in higher education, particularly in student affairs, was the NASPA conference. I went to my first National Association of Student Personnel Administrators conference in Washington, D. C. My first time in D. C. And fell in love with this field of student affairs. And upon working through my undergraduate degree, I realized pretty quickly that the career path I was on at the time was going to likely put me in a cubicle.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:11]: And as a very social individual who likes to be around people and gets energy from that, I decided that I needed to consider another option. And that NASPA conference confirmed for me that that field of choice needed to be student affairs. So recognizing that my entry into student affairs for many positions was going to be meeting the requirement of having a graduate degree. So I decided to, like many people, apply to a graduate program, take the GRE. Unfortunately, I didn't do well. I didn't really spend a lot of time preparing. In full transparency, I just believe my arrogance and presence was enough to get me in. I didn't have a stellar GPA.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:03:51]: I I tell people my academic story starts with me in my 1st semester getting a one point 66 GPA and getting placed on academic probation. And the next semester getting a 3.33 GPA. And so I didn't have the GPA necessarily to meet the qualifications, but I've had the tenacity, the resiliency, and the drive, and the willingness to say, you know what? Let's go for this goal. And, plaque for a master's program in student affairs at the University of Arkansas and I got told no. And I'm really thankful to that faculty member who met with me and said this might not be the right program in terms of getting you into the field but considering another option. Consider workforce development education. They have 2 tracks. 1 is wor, human resource development education.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:04:40]: One is adult education. Which one would you be interested in? And I'll connect you to the department head. And I thought that in the event that this student affairs, higher education trajectory doesn't work out for me, the idea of hiring, firing, and training people seems really interesting to me. So let me go with that route. And I did the program. It was a online master's program, but I decided to take some classes in class because I love the classroom and thought that a good class to take in class is research. So I finished my master's degree at the University of Arkansas, the same place I did my bachelor's degree and started my entry into student affairs. And that's what made me say, in order to get to this field, you've gotta get your master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:25]: You kind of answered my next question, which really comes down to, as you are thinking about your graduate degree, your your master's degree, why you chose to stay at the University of Arkansas. But you kind of answered that. So I'm gonna pivot a little bit because you you decided after a few years of working that you went from the master's degree, your master's in works workforce development, and you decided to go back to school. And you decided to work on a doctorate degree, a PhD, this time in college student affairs administration. So we heard your story about not getting into that that college student personnel or college student affairs program and master's degree, but you did get into a doctor doctor degree, and you chose to go to the University of Georgia. So talk to me about going into the workforce, but then making that next decision to go back to school. What were the impetuses for you to want to do that? And why the University of Georgia? And why a PhD in this area?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:06:30]: After graduating with a master's degree, I started my student affairs journey, professional journey, full time working in residential life. A lot of people who start in the student affairs get into this particular area within the field and I enjoyed it. You know, being able to impact and have an opportunity to shape, mold, and work with another generation of up and coming students who were really excited about the things they were gonna do with their degrees kept me intrigued and working in the field on top of going in to events and conferences and staying engaged. And I worked at the University of Central Oklahoma for 3 years and then decided that, you know what? I spent enough time as a RD, as a residential, RC at the time, residential coordinator. So now it's time to go to another position. And I went to the University of Oklahoma in a role where the title doesn't matter, the work is what matters more. And and so within that, while I was there, I met had a lot of colleagues who were interested in pursuing doctoral degrees. Also at this time, I recognized that for some doctoral programs, you needed to have at least 3 years or more work experience.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:07:40]: And so as I'm learning and having conversations with colleagues and friends who are going back to get their doctoral and was told no again. And so not that one but another one. And in, you know, in all honesty, what led me to really think about where I was and what was gonna be next in my career was talking to mentors. Many of them pouring into me still saying, you can go to be more in this field. You can do more in this field. And I had a vision and a goal to be a dean of students. A lot of my mentors were dean of students or vice presidents of student affairs or college presidents, and I wanted to be at that position. And so I knew the qualification for many individuals who were going to who wanted to do that was to get a doctoral degree.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:08:33]: Happened to be working at an institution that offer programs but I sided decided that I think now was the time to go do something else, to go somewhere else. And so as I was looking at different programs, what appealed to me at the University of Georgia, 1, I had a mentor who graduated from the University of Georgia who I held in high regard and respect still very much to this day. He was a graduate of the institution. 1 of my fraternity brothers, I'm a member of Alpha Fraternity Incorporated. And one of my fraternity brothers was working in, the Greek life office at the time as a full time part time graduate student in the program and full time employee and having a phenomenal experience. But what really solidified it for me was going to yet again a NASPA conference. And while there, I met 3 current students, now alums of the program, who each were doing different conference presentations and I met them and they were 3 completely different people, personalities, styles, dress, appearance. Everything about them was very different.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:09:33]: And then they did a concurrent session with another good friend of mine. And I said, all 3 of you all are in the same program? And they say, yes. I said, Sign me up. So I then started my my road back to applying to grad school, taking the GRE, really working through more intentionally this time, my preparation for applying to graduate school. Hadn't been or visited the institution. Didn't even know it was in Athens, Georgia. I knew it was in Georgia, but I didn't do my due diligence in that way. But applied to the program and was really, really interested and got admitted into it and decided that, yeah, I think I'm a go.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:10:10]: But at Georgia, they had this program called Acceptance Students' Day. I took that event as an opportunity to go visit the campus, to go sit in a class with one of the faculty members, to meet them in person, and to really gauge and see myself living in Athens, moving across the country a little bit, a few states, and saying confirming for me that this was the decision I needed to make. And those 3 days, I decided, yes, Georgia is where I'm going to go and was connected with a lot of resources to support to help me in that transition.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:45]: So let's talk about transitions because I know that with every different degree that you go in, there are transitions. There are things that you have to learn either before or as you go in that are going to be pivotal in how you are able to start your path on the right foot and being able to then build those strategies that'll help you to be successful throughout the entire program. Going from undergrad is very different than being in a a master's degree is very different than being in a doctoral program. The expectations are different, etcetera. As you think back to the different transitions that you went through and you look at the endpoint, you were very successful. A your success throughout grad school?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:11:36]: So one of the first things is learning to adapt the mentality of being a scholar, of being a graduate student. It as you've already stated, the expectation of this process, of this experience is much more. The second thing I had to adapt to and really learn to be successful in initially starting is managing the volume of work, particularly at the doctoral level. You are reading a lot. You are consuming a lot of information. And the expectation of your ability to come to an engaging, 1st couple of weeks to take that on, And that can be a lot in the 1st couple of weeks to take that on while you're also, for me, navigating living in a brand new city, living in a brand new state, managing some homesickness. Even though I hadn't lived in the state of Arkansas for 5 years at that point, that was still home for me. And so being away from there, the other part of the transition for me is relying on and knowing that I had support systems who were going to be with my family. My father who was living at the time, health was not the greatest during my time of being at the University of Georgia. And so I'm now 8 and a half, 9 hours away. That's not a way you can you can't get a phone call and just drive down quickly. You really got to think through some things. And so that was a challenge for me.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:04]: The financial aspect. I feel like I did not make a good financial investment initially in terms of planning through how I was gonna pay for this. I took out way too much of student loans my first couple of years. And so getting that amount of money at one time and trying to think through how I'm going to manage that over the course of a semester or the entire year was a transition for me. And then the last point is really understanding academic research at the graduate level. I immediately, as a part of the program, was joined into a research team, a research team that was already off and running with reviewing data. They already had IRB approval. These are words of which I had no prior knowledge of, or experience with extensively.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:13:50]: And so that was very new for me and that was hard. And so I felt a lot of times that I was just coasting through, hoping to not be seen. And the point where I started to be successful happened during the point when I recognized and made a decision for myself that you can be seen, you can show up in the version that you are at the place that you are. This is not a competition. That program has a community model, not necessarily a cohort model. So we start together for the 1st year or 2, but after that, we can take different classes. We may in we may exit at this this position of being a doctoral student or to candidacy and graduation in different places cause they're a full time and part time students. And so the class that really confirmed me that you are in charge of this process, there's only one name attached to the ID number, is statistics.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:14:41]: I took a summer statistics class. I had, one of my community members we star I started with and she was really good at statistics. And she was like, Hey, I'm a I'm a carry you through this. We're gonna get through this class. And very quickly in the 1st week, I realized she is not going to get me through this. She had a full time job and was juggling her family. So that first assignment, getting it back and not doing well, I said, oh man, you've got to figure out what you're going to do. Because you are gonna have to get yourself through this.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:15:09]: And that point when I took that ownership, that's when things actually started to get a lot better for me. That was year 3. And then 4 years it took me to finish the degree. So it took a while. And I'm glad that I had that experience. I'm glad that I had those challenges with the research team and learning to adapt this new mentality of being a doctoral student. It was not easy.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:29]: No. It's definitely not easy. And it take definitely takes time to be able to get into that groove and be able to understand what not only your faculty expectations are, but what the university expectations are. And the the the the mantle that you're wearing for that degree is going to be different depending on where you are, you know, in the program and all of them. There's tons of expectations that you've got in. Now you and we and I say that not to scare anyone, but just to go in with open eyes and to ask the right questions. And speaking of asking the right questions, doctor Grimes, as I said, wrote a book just recently that is called 20 Questions They Answer Before You Apply to Graduate School. So, Justin, let's talk about that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:14]: Talk to bring me back to the beginning and tell me why you decided you wanted to take the time to work, to put all this together, to put this out into the world, and to help others in this way.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:16:28]: So this is quite an interesting experience for me, writing a book. I never thought again, my goal was to be a dean of students and vice president and doing a doctoral internship for 2 years in the dean of students office. I quickly realized I don't wanna be a dean of students or a vice president of student affairs. And, you know, sometimes when you have that experience, you are having to figure out what you're going to do next. And my funding and my contract was not renewed in that office. And so that happens. That's real. Sometimes you lose your funding or your assistance citizenship and you've gotta figure out what you're going to do.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:17:02]: Because of the relationships that I have with the graduate school going to recruitment events and talking with different prospective students, an opportunity was presented to me from the dean. The dean had already ended all of her positions for the following year, and one was created just for me to work in the graduate school business office. And while there, that really started my interest in learning about graduate school is what ultimately led me to write my own dissertation around what motivates students to pursue PhDs in education. And after I finished the doctoral degree, my wife, who I met while I was at the University of Georgia, got a job at Virginia Tech. And during that time as a spousal hire, I'm starting this, she was the primary hire, I am the secondary hire. An opportunity was presented at the graduate school to continue my work working in graduate school as a recruiter managing diversity programs and retention programs. And what I found being on the road is that I could talk to any prospective student about the institution. I could sell the institution.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:02]: But what I could not always do is sell the program. What I did not always was able to do was to talk through funding. To talk about what you really need to be a full time student or a part time student. What funding look like, should you do this locally. There was a lot of questions that students had, but there were also more questions that students weren't asking before they made the decision to pursue it. And me included. I just kinda again, I was here earlier that I went to I accepted Georgia's site on the scene. And so this is what led me to write the book during the pandemic.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:18:35]: Also during this time, my mother was navigating a cancer diagnosis. She has stage 4 thyroid cancer. So I'm traveling between Virginia and Arkansas to manage her, as well as my mother-in-law was battling a stage 4 cancer diagnosis. So me and my wife were on the road, and I needed something to pour into that was going to give life beyond this experience of 2 individuals battling it, cancer that was not curable and life being taken away. So I dove straight deeply into writing this book. It was the book that I needed. It was the book I wanted to give every student that I met. It was the book that I want everyone who thinks about graduate school to grab and go forward with.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:19]: And that's what led me to write this book. It's been a wonderful experience. I never thought I would become an author. I never thought that I would leave for higher education, but that is what this book has led me to. So I share that story about my start in graduate education because it's what led me to this point now.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:37]: So as you put this book out into the world and people are reading it, what are some of the high points, the pieces that you really want everyone to take away from this book?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:19:48]: I want everyone to, with this book, to first start about thinking start with thinking through your dreams and your goals. What exactly do you want out of your career and your life? And is a graduate degree required to do that? Or at what point will graduate education be connected to your long term professional career? As there are more jobs that are gonna be required in the future with graduate degrees, I want individuals to be prepared. The second thing is, for me, this book and the work that I do is to help individuals make a more informed decision about the funding of their degree, about what type of degree they wanna do, where they wanna do it at, how much did he commit to that. These are some of the questions that we ask in the book like how do I select my program is the question and how do I pay for graduate school is one of the 20 questions and what types of student loans can I use is another question? I want individuals to go through a guide step by step of identifying what this process entails. And then after the at the conclusion of reading it, feel more informed, feel more prepared, able to fully engage in the application process successfully. And so far, I mean, majority of the students who have used this book have been able to get into graduate school with no problems. And so for me, I know that the work is meaningful because I'm getting messages every day through social media and LinkedIn about the significance this book has had on people's lives. And I'm looking forward to this recent class of 2024 graduating, as well as the new class who's getting ready to start graduate school we have read this book.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:22]: So now that you have written this book and you finish your degree, as you look at the future, how do you feel that the graduate degree has prepared you for the next steps that you have for yourself?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:21:35]: So one of the things I love about the graduate degree is the opportunity to engage in critical thinking at a deeper level. The graduate degree provided me an opportunity to really understand when someone says the research says, I know what to do in terms of investigating and digging deeper into that. The graduate degree helped me to be able to unpack information in a way. The graduate degree helped me to become a better translator. Tell people the reason why I got a graduate degree is to be able to communicate between the haves and the have nots. Those in academia and those who are not. I I see myself as much of a bridge to higher education. And so the degree prepared me for such.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:22:16]: The relationships, the networking that this degree provided me with, the credentialing that it's provided me with, I couldn't have even guessed that that's what it would would would bring for me ultimately. And so for me, as I think about the value of the graduate degree, it sometimes comes down to 4 things for people. You know, how much money it is? Is money the driver? Is networking credentialing the driver? Is always being a researcher or quest a thirst for learning the driver? Or goals? Is it connected to a goal? And so for me, this has done wonders in terms of what I've been able to do. But more importantly, I know that the work that I am doing in the book is changing lives. I know that it is providing inspiration to in the representatives in their family to go to college. For me, I'm the first one of my neighborhood, the first one of my family to obtain the doctoral degree. And that means a lot. And now I know that people who are connected to me see that it's a possibility, and it's one that they probably will choose.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:26]: Now as you look back at your own experience going through graduate school and your graduate education, what are some tips that you might want to offer to others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:23:39]: First thing I want people to do is to really think through, again, what is your career trajectory? The second thing I want people to do is make a budget. Every person who's thinking about pursuing one of these degrees, whether it be for profit or not for profit, online or in person, you really need to make a budget to see what your current expenses are to identify what your financial needs are. The second thing, and I have a workbook for this on my website, is to think through your skills, your needs, your wants, and your gifts. What are you really gifted at? What are you really skilled at doing? And how is the graduate degree going to be a compliment to that? And to the point that you mentioned earlier about being open to things, I encourage people to really be open to the possibility of what this degree can do for you. I tell folks that there are a lot of opportunities to engage in entrepreneurial efforts through the graduate degree. It's not about just taking a class for the sake of taking it. It is also seeing how you can use that and share that out with the world. The next thing I encourage people to do is to look through and think about the terms and conditions for any student loan.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:24:45]: I know that there are limited options related to student loans but really understand what you're registering and signing up for when you fill out the FAFSA and they are offering you that. I did not read this thoroughly and I wish I would have. So I would have had I had the budget and really thought about how much I needed, I wouldn't have taken out so much. And the next piece of advice I encourage people to really 2 things I will say is think about the supports that you need to be successful in this process. What do you need outside of this? Because I think that for a number of people, everybody I think who starts a graduate program are gifted academic. But what they what helps get people to the end, especially at the doctoral level, is their level of managing resiliency and managing managing difficult moments throughout this experience. Because there will be difficult moments. If you have an advisor, like I had one, a chair, who said, I think your writing is going the wrong direction and you've already submitted chapter 1 through 3.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:25:41]: That is hard to manage. And so when your chair is saying, hey, we're gonna push your your defense back another to the next semester, that is a difficult moment and you need those supports inside and outside of the academic space to walk you through that. And the last thing I will tell people is enjoy the process. Enjoy every aspect of this. From getting the transcripts to hitting submit on your application to starting your first class to enrolling to meeting colleagues, to establishing collegial relationships and professional relationships with faculty. Enjoy all of this. I know it can be very stressful but I don't think people spend enough time enjoying it and recognizing that this is still a small amount of people who possess this degree these degrees. And so the enjoyment piece sometimes comes on the after side of it, right, when you're finished.

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:34]: But if you could just celebrate the fact that you wrote your first paper, that you got through the 1st semester, and keep going, you will ultimately finish their degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:26:43]: Now Justin, if people wanna find your book, where's the best place for them to go?

Dr. Justin Grimes [00:26:47]: Go to apply to graduateschool.com. 2 is the the the letters t o. You can also follow us on social media at apply the number 2 g school. Definitely look me up on LinkedIn, Doctor. Justin Grimes. And there is where you can find a lot of information, blog posts, resources, copies of the book, and everything else we're doing with the business applied to graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:09]: Well, Justin, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for what you're putting out into the world and for what you shared today, and I wish you all the best. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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In the latest episode of Victors in Grad School podcast, Dr. Christopher Lewis introduces us to Kim Snodgrass, a current Master of Public Health student at the University of Michigan-Flint. Kim’s story is an inspiring testament to perseverance, resilience, and the unyielding spirit to succeed, even after two decades away from the academic world. This blog post delves into her journey, highlighting the challenges she faced, the support systems that guided her, and the lessons she offers to others aspiring to excel in graduate school.

The Decision to Return: A Leap of Faith

Kim Snodgrass’s academic journey began over 20 years ago at Marygrove College, where she earned a Bachelor’s of Science in Human Nutrition and Foods. Following the sage advice to gain work experience first, Kim spent two decades serving her community through various public health roles, notably within women and infant health programs. It was this hands-on experience that reignited her passion for public health and solidified her decision to pursue a Master of Public Health (MPH) degree.

Choosing the Right Program: Why Public Health and Why U of M Flint?

When Kim decided to return to school, the choice of a Master of Public Health was clear. Her work underscored the importance of addressing social determinants of health—factors like socio-economic status, education, and environment that significantly impact health outcomes. This alignment with her professional experience and aspiration to serve underprivileged communities made the MPH program a natural fit.

For Kim, the University of Michigan Flint stood out for its welcoming community and supportive environment. Unlike larger, impersonal institutions, U of M Flint offered a family-like atmosphere reminiscent of her undergraduate experience at Marygrove College. This sense of community and belonging played a crucial role in her academic success.

Overcoming Obstacles: Embracing Challenges in Graduate School

Returning to graduate school after a long hiatus posed significant challenges, from mastering new technologies to navigating different academic requirements. Kim’s primary mode of learning in her undergraduate years had been in-person, but now she had to adapt to online learning platforms like Canvas. The transition was daunting, but U of M Flint’s IT support staff played a pivotal role, patiently guiding her through each step.

The challenges did not stop there. Courses like biostatistics proved particularly tough, but with proactive communication and seeking help, Kim turned potential roadblocks into building blocks. She reached out to her professors, took advantage of tutoring services, and relentlessly pursued academic excellence.

Building a Support Network: The Mentor Collective

One of the invaluable resources that Kim credited for her success was the Mentor Collective at U of M Flint. Initially, she was mentored by someone who helped her navigate the intricacies of her program. This mentorship was so impactful that Kim eventually became a mentor herself, guiding others through similar struggles. This support network provided not only academic assistance but also emotional and motivational support.

Practical Applications: From Classroom to Community

The knowledge and skills Kim gained in her MPH program have had a direct impact on her professional life. Working as a dietitian in Detroit, she applies her understanding of social determinants of health to better serve her clients. Questions on her nutrition assessments now include social factors, enabling her to make more informed referrals and provide comprehensive care.

Tips for Future Graduate Students: Setting Up for Success

Reflecting on her journey, Kim offers several tips for prospective graduate students:

1. Research Programs Thoroughly: Understand what each program offers and ensure it aligns with your passions and career goals.
2. Engage with Campus Life: Participate in fairs and events to build connections and immerse yourself in the community.
3. Build a Supportive Network: Surround yourself with peers who uplift you. Engage with mentors and professors proactively.
4. Utilize Campus Resources**: Take advantage of tutoring centers, writing centers, IT support, and other services offered by the institution.
5. Stay Passionate: When challenges arise, remember why you chose this path and let that passion drive you forward.

Kim Snodgrass’s journey through graduate school is a compelling narrative of resilience, support, and relentless pursuit of knowledge. Her story underscores the importance of a supportive academic environment and the power of community in overcoming obstacles. Aspiring graduate students can draw valuable lessons from her experience, using her strategies to pave their own paths to success. As Kim continues her journey, aiming even higher with aspirations for a doctorate, her story remains a beacon of inspiration for all those embarking on their academic adventures. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. And as always, I know that you're on a journey. You are on a journey to either get into graduate school, get through graduate school, get out of graduate school. There's lots of places that someone may be as you're listening to this. And I love being able to talk to you every week to learn a little bit more about the journey that you're on, but also to help you and to offer some resources, some advice, some things that may be able to make that journey a little bit smoother. Every week, I love being able to bring you different people, different people that have gone to graduate school, that are in graduate school now, but are working their way through or have gotten out of graduate school that are sharing their experiences with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Because it's important. It's important to be able to listen, to learn, and to be open to seeing ways in which others have gone along that path, have found success in that path, may have struggled in that path, but they've picked themselves up and found that success in the end. That's why every week I do bring you different guests, different people with different experiences that can share that with you. And they come from all walks of life. They come from all types of educational programs. But no matter what program that they're on, they all had to do something or many things to be able to find the success that they wanted in their graduate school journey. And that's what I'm trying to make sure that you can take out of every episode. And that's why every episode brings you different people.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:08]: So this week, I am really excited to be able to bring you a brand new guest. Kim Snodgrass is with us today, and Kim is a current master of public health student at the University of Michigan, Flint, and she did her undergraduate work at Marygrove College and along the way ended up in the master's of public health program. So we're gonna be talking about that journey, learning a little more about her, and I'm really excited to have her here. Kim, thanks so much for being here today.

Kim Snodgrass [00:02:36]: Thank you for having me, doctor Lewis. It's such an honor and privilege to be here with you on this podcast.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:42]: Well, it is my pleasure having you here today. Really excited to be able to talk with you today and learn a little bit more. And one of the things that I love to do first is to turn the clock back in time. I wanna go back to those undergraduate years. You did your undergraduate years back at Marygrove College. And at some point, it might have been during undergrad. Maybe not. May have been after a few years of working.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:05]: You made a choice. You made a choice to go to graduate school. Talk to me about that progression, that journey, and what led you to decide that going and getting that master's of public health was the right choice for you?

Kim Snodgrass [00:03:20]: Absolutely. So my journey started over 20 years ago. I attended Marygrove College, which is a small Catholic college that was in Detroit, Michigan, and I pursued my bachelor's of science in human nutrition and foods with a concentration minor in natural sciences. And so people always say don't go to grad school right away. Just work for a while, see what you're passionate about, and that was absolutely the best advice because I really didn't know what I wanted to get my master's degree in. I looked at getting a master's of nutrition, but that wouldn't have gone very well for me because I'm more in the community public health space. That's where I can be utilized the most and where I like to be. So I was out of school for 20 years, which is a very long time, and I decided, hey, I need to go back for my master's degree, and public health would be a wonderful, degree for me to obtain. I feel that it really combines well with having a nutrition background and wanting to work in the community. I spent several years working at the infant the women, infants, and children program, which is known as WIC, and working at maternal infant health program. So they were both in the community and public health space, and so here I am. U of M Flint has been an exceptional place for me to be. Everyone's so open and welcoming. They said, Kim, you've been out of school for 20 years, but we're gonna help you. We're gonna help you. We're gonna guide you, and, absolutely, that's what's happened for me. All my professors have been very helpful. They referred me to the writing center because they know I've been out of school for a long, long time, so I was able to utilize those services. Had a couple of hard courses, biostatistics. A shout out to Doctor. Sally. That class is exceptionally challenging but U of M Flint was there to help me through their tutoring service since doctor Sally tutored me personally. And so it's just been a very wonderful journey.

Kim Snodgrass [00:05:13]: One that I've recruited people to come to U of M Flint just because the program is such a wonderful program. And in being a dietitian so I've been a dietitian for 20 years. Right now, they're requiring that all dietitians have their master's degree entering into the program. I would have been grandfathered in, but I didn't wanna come along on this journey knowing that all my colleagues will have their master's degree, and I did not. And so that again prompted me to go back for my master's degree. So being at U of M Flint, I'm about halfway through with my program, and that's exciting to me. And, really, on this journey, I I realized that I love being in school. I actually wanna pursue my doctorate in public health, and so I feel that with U of M Flint, having that background, having that knowledge, and learning so much, it's really just helped me grow even in my professional career. So I'm just excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:05]: So as you mentioned, it's been a long journey. You worked for a number of years, And as you were working and identified that you wanted to do more community work, you made a decision to go to graduate school. You chose to do a master of public health. Talk to me about, 1, why a master of public health? You probably could have choose to chosen a number of different types of degrees that are out there. But why that program? And then even more so, why the University of Michigan Flint?

Kim Snodgrass [00:06:35]: Well, so those are very good questions. So public health because I'm concerned about people and their social determinants of health. I'm concerned about people who are underprivileged and under represented. I grew up in Detroit, Michigan and very poor product of a single parent home. And so looking at the social determinants of health, how that affects someone, where they live, where they grow, where they work, how it affects their health outcomes, and just their life period, that intrigues me. And being able to have that knowledge to be able to serve the underprivileged and underserved population, I know that I can be a change agent, and U of M Flint has helped me to do that. And why did I choose U of M Flint? Because, hey, it's U of M. It's an exceptional school.

Kim Snodgrass [00:07:21]: And when I visited the campus, I met the professors. I met, all the people there. Everyone's so open and welcoming, and so I felt at home there. I actually felt like I was back at Marygrove. It reminds me a lot of Marygrove because it's just a family type of feeling, and people really take you under their wings. They guide you. They make sure that you're on the right track. They don't leave you behind.

Kim Snodgrass [00:07:44]: I feel like they're there to help you. And me having I'm an older learner. I've been out of school a long time. People didn't look at me and look at me like I was different. They say, hey. Can we know that you'll have some challenges, but we're gonna help you get through those challenges? And I am a true success story, and I just I'm so thankful to all my professors for believing in me, spending extra hours after class to tutor me on Saturdays, tutoring me. They didn't have to do that, but they wanted to pour into me because they saw my potential, and I really appreciate that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:18]: Now going back to school after 20 years of not being in school is a transition, and even going from undergrad to graduate school is a transition. There's a difference in the way that you're educated, a different difference in the way that you have to to act and to provide knowledge back to the class. Talk to me about that transition for yourself and what you had to do. As you transitioned back into graduate school. No, As you transitioned into graduate school, what did you have to do to set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Kim Snodgrass [00:08:59]: So, again, a really good question because I feel like I'm an in person learner. My undergraduate classes, all my classes were in person. With U of M Flint being so far for me, it's about an hour and a half drive from where I live, I'm pretty much an online student. So becoming more familiar with technology, I actually had to reach out to U of M Flint IT just to help me get on Canvas and to know how to navigate to be an online student, but they walked me through the process over the phone. They were exceptional. I was on the phone literally crying like, look. I'm a old person trying to navigate, and they were like, you don't have to worry. We got you.

Kim Snodgrass [00:09:38]: And it just made me feel so at ease that they were able to walk me through the process. They would not let me off the phone until I was in the system, knew how to operate Canvas, and they made things seamless for me. Just being able to say, okay. How do I go to the online library? When I was at Marygrove, we were on the card catalog. We had to actually flip through little pieces of paper to find books. Now everything is online. So I was able to go to the library, the U of M Flint librarians helped me navigate the online library system. They helped walk me through things over the phone.

Kim Snodgrass [00:10:14]: They did not leave me behind. They helped me with research. The writing center helped me a lot because the way I wrote papers in Marygrove was in the MLA style. Now pursuing my Miles per hour, I have to write everything at APA. So, again, the writing center, they will proofread my papers. They will say, hey, Kim. You did this great, but you didn't do that great, and we're gonna help you. You gotta cite your sources this way.

Kim Snodgrass [00:10:35]: You have to not use a whole bunch of direct quotes. You have to learn how to paraphrase. You went to graduate school now. So from the librarians to the writing center to IT, everyone has been exceptionally helpful because they know that I needed those services and that I had challenges. So going from undergraduate being in person to graduate being online, U of M Flint made that possible, and it hasn't been hard for me at all because I've had someone walk me through the process every step of the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:03]: Now I heard you say you struggled. And one of the things that I know you talked about was statistics. And that was something that you said that one of your faculty members really worked closely with you on. And sometimes in graduate school, you hit that proverbial wall. You hit a point where you question yourself, you question your ability in the program. A lot of times people call it the imposter syndrome. But a lot of times there is a point, whether it's in your 1st term, in the middle of your program, your last term, there probably is going to be some point where you hit that. Talk to me about that, in that struggle that you hit, and what you had to do to overcome that to come out on the back end successful in the journey that you're on?

Kim Snodgrass [00:11:55]: So absolutely. So U of M Flint has this wonderful program called the Mentor Collective, and I actually had a mentor when I first started that helped me navigate through the system and learn all the things that I could utilize to be successful. Fast forward, I'm a mentor in the Mentor Collective because I had someone carry me under their wings. And so what they told me to do is if you're having problems in your classes with your professor, you need to reach out to your professor. Don't wait till the very end when you're failing to say, hey. I didn't get anything. So that was very helpful information that my mentor at the time shared with me. Going through biostatistics class, I talked to my professor.

Kim Snodgrass [00:12:35]: I let her know that I was struggling, that I was not doing well, not comprehending a lot of information. So she took additional time with me after class. She took additional time with me on the weekends, and then U of M Flint also had tutoring services that was very helpful to me as well. So again, talking to my professors, engaging with tutors, no one let me fall by the wayside. They ensured my success, and you just have to be proactive. You can't wait till the last minute. If you're having a problem, you need to reach out to the appropriate people and let them know that you need help, and they will be there to help you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:09]: Now I know you're still in the program. You're working toward the end and and getting to that there's that light at the end of the tunnel for yourself. As you've been going through this program for yourself, talk to me about how you've been able to utilize the information that you are learning in the work that you do daily.

Kim Snodgrass [00:13:26]: So absolutely. So being a dietitian and working in the Detroit community, I'm able to look at a patient and kinda go through their assessment, and I ask them their social determinants of health questions on my nutrition questionnaire about if a patient is struggling with food. Do you have access to food? Are you struggling with putting food on your table for you and your children? So there's questions about the social determinants of health on my nutrition assessment. If that patient is struggling, I'm able to make certain referrals for those patients. I'm able to refer them to different programs so that they can have food delivered to their homes, to their porches, even if they have transportation issues. Knowing all about the social determinants of health, what that entails, it's allowed me to become a better dietitian. It's allowed me to better service my clientele in the Detroit community because I know what they need help with. And so I'm able to look at them, ask those questions, make those assessments, and better service them because we need people to eat.

Kim Snodgrass [00:14:27]: If you don't eat, you struggle, you know, to learn. You struggle to do good at work, and you need food for energy. And so being able to make those connections, I feel, has made me a better clinician, and that's exceptional because I've been a clinician for 20 years. But this program, looking at what we need to better service inner city people, which I used to be a inner city person. I grow grew up in Detroit. It's allowed me to become a better dietitian, and that makes me feel really good about myself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:56]: Now as you look back at the journey that you've been on through graduate school and you think about what you've learned along the way, what are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate school, whether it be for a master's in public health or something else that would help them find success sooner?

Kim Snodgrass [00:15:12]: So it's good to go on the website of the school that you're looking at. For instance, you have in Flint. Look at the programs. See what intrigues you. See what speaks to you. See what you're passionate about because you're gonna need to be passionate about a subject because when it gets hard, you have to remember that this is something that you really, really wanna do, and so that's gonna help you pull through. You're gonna have to surround yourself with students and people who will bring you up, meaning you have to have a core group, people that you can study with, call on the phone, and go over information with because they can help you along the way. So I say get a core group, especially when you first start out.

Kim Snodgrass [00:15:50]: Go to all the fairs that they have at campus because in drenching yourself in campus life, you get to know people, people that can say, you know what, Kim? You would do good in this program. You would do good in in joining this, and that's gonna help you because I feel like it's not all about school work. It's about making those connections. It's about building those lasting relationships and it's about networking because you'll be out of school one day and you want to build those relationships and networks so that when you graduate you have people that can possibly write you recommendation letters or say, hey. This job will fit you well. You wouldn't be able to have those things if you didn't make those connections and if you didn't network. And then also building those positive relationships with your professors via email, via Zoom calls, via in person interaction. I feel like my professors, they all know me because Kim has questions.

Kim Snodgrass [00:16:41]: Kim's gonna ask and they know I'm very verbal and they're very understanding. I mean, these are some of the best professors that I would say are out there because they're not just thorough and they're not just educated, but they also have compassion, and they also have empathy, and they also know how to bring things down to your personal level. I can remember being in class, and one of my professors asking me a definition. And I gave them the verbatim book definition that they kept in layman's terms. And they know because you need to be able to break information down so that everyone can understand. And that's what our professors do. They really care. They have a heart for you because they want you to learn.

Kim Snodgrass [00:17:16]: They want you to grow, and they want you to be able to go out into the world and teach other people what you've learned here at U of M Flint.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:23]: Well, Kim, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being willing to share some advice as well, and I truly wish you all the best.

Kim Snodgrass [00:17:32]: Thank you so much, Dr.Lewis. I really appreciate that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:35]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on a journey through graduate school is a significant undertaking, filled with challenges and opportunities for growth. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sat down with Ja'Nel Jamerson, the CEO of the Flint Center For Educational Excellence, to delve into Ja'Nel's educational journey and the lessons he learned along the way. This blog post will explore key insights shared by Ja'Nel Jamerson, offering valuable advice for those considering or currently enrolled in graduate programs.

Falling in Love with Your Subject

Ja'Nel emphasizes the importance of falling in love with your subject when pursuing a graduate degree. Whether studying law, education, or any other field, passion plays a crucial role in driving your success. By immersing yourself in your subject matter and connecting all aspects of your learning to it, you can make the educational experience more engaging and meaningful. Ja'Nel's advice underscores the value of being unapologetic about your pursuit and leveraging that passion to fuel your academic journey.

Building a Strong Network

Another key takeaway from Ja'Nel's discussion is the significance of building a strong network during your time in graduate school. The connections you make with peers and professors can have a lasting impact on your career trajectory. These relationships provide a support system, offer valuable insights, and open doors to collaborative opportunities. Ja'Nel's personal experience highlights how the network cultivated in graduate school can serve as a valuable resource in professional endeavors, underscoring the importance of fostering these connections.

The Value of Work Product

Ja'Nel emphasizes the value of the work produced during graduate studies, noting that the process of articulating and defending your ideas is instrumental in developing critical skills. The ability to construct persuasive arguments supported by data, adapt to new information, and defend your positions is essential for effective leadership. By honing these skills throughout graduate school, students can enhance their capacity to navigate complex challenges and contribute meaningfully to their respective fields.

Balancing Theory and Practice

A crucial aspect of Ja'Nel's journey is the balance between theory and practice. He underscores the importance of integrating academic knowledge with real-world experience, highlighting the symbiotic relationship between the two. By finding programs that honor this balance and cater to mid-career professionals or those seeking to advance their skills, individuals can bridge the gap between theoretical concepts and practical application, enhancing their impact in their professional roles.

Ja'Nel Jamerson's insights offer valuable guidance for individuals navigating the graduate school journey. From fostering a deep passion for your subject to leveraging networks and honing critical skills, his experiences underscore the multifaceted nature of graduate education. By embracing these lessons, current and prospective graduate students can enhance their academic experiences, cultivate meaningful connections, and equip themselves with the tools needed for success in their chosen fields. As you embark on your own graduate school journey, remember Ja'Nel's advice: fall in love with your subject, nurture your network, and value the work you produce as you balance theory and practice. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always, every week, I love being able to have conversations with you about this journey that you're on. Every week, we are going through the process of looking at grad school, and looking at what does it actually take to find success in this journey? And I say journey because it is a journey. Every step of the process is going to be a little bit different for every person. And your process of going to grad school, going through grad school is gonna be different than what I went through. But there are commonalities.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:58]: There are things that you can learn from others that have gone before you. And through those experiences, through what you learned from others, you can take those tools, add them to your toolbox, and help you to make good choices as you go through this process to help you find success sooner. That's why every week I love bringing you different guests, different people that have gone before you, that have gone through graduate school, and they come from all walks of life. And this week we've got another great guest with us today. Ja'Nelle Jamieson is with us today. Anyway, Doctor. Ja'Nelle Jamieson is with us today, and I'm really excited to have him here today. Doctor Jamerson is the chief executive officer for the Flint Center For Educational Excellence, and we'll talk about that journey that he was on to move to that point in his career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:52]: But we're also gonna talk about his educational journey and what it took for him to be able to get in, get through, and find success. Ja'Nelle, thanks so much for being here today.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:02:06]: Definitely. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: You know, first and foremost, what I wanna do is I wanna go back in time. I wanna turn that clock back, and I wanna go all the way back to those first moments that you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, And at some point at some point, you decided from going and getting that degree in English language and literature that at some point during that point in time you said, You know what? I'm going to keep going, and I'm going to get my secondary education and teaching master's degree. So talk bring me back to that point and talk to me about that first step of what made you decide to take that jump and go to grad school.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:02:49]: You know, I was coming up on the end of my undergrad experience at Flint, and throughout undergrad, I worked in the office of opportunity initiatives or EOI. And I was offered an opportunity to become the assistant manager for pre college programs, the same pre college programs that I have participated in since I was an 8th grade student at Longfellow Middle School in Flint. And so I was deeply committed to the programs. I was deeply committed to the university, but I knew that a bachelor's in arts in English didn't give me enough discipline. Right. That I would need to, to really strengthen the pathways for underserved students coming from very similar situations that I came from to the university. And so I looked at a number of places and then applied to graduate school all over the state, but just found the program at U of M Flint to be so unique. It just really harnessing, I think, the university's unique positioning as an an urban centered institution.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:03:46]: Most people who, who are trained as teachers, they, they student teach for a semester. I student taught for 2 years in 3 different schools. Right, as a graduate student who already had discipline in English. And so my 2 years of graduate experience was all discipline in the science and in the art of teaching. And so it was complimentary to the work that I was doing as a staff member of the university. There were there were obvious benefits to being able to pursue my graduate degree while being a staff member. And so it, it made the most sense. People say like, man, Ja'Nelle, you got every degree you ever gotten from U of M Flint.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:04:18]: And I tell people that the university has always made me an offer that I couldn't refuse. And I think that that's just a really clear experience being 22 years old right at the end of a of an under 21, actually at the end of an undergrad experience. Getting my first leadership opportunity offered to me before I even had the the ink was even dry on my BA and then also having the opportunity to go directly into graduate school. Again, it was just one of those offers that I couldn't refuse.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:43]: Well, you kind of just jumped into really my next question, which was you stayed at the University of Michigan Flint, not only for a master's degree. You went on and you got an educational specialist degree, then you went and continued on and got an educational doctorate degree. And I guess first and foremost, one of the questions that I would ask would be is you jump from being going and getting the the teaching degree into the EDS and EdD, which the EDS is very administratively focused. And then the EDD is administratively focused in some aspect, but also research focused. So talk to me about why the EDS, why the EDD, as you were looking at your career?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:05:23]: You know, Chris, there's a why and there's a how. And I think my story at at Flendon Graduate school are, is, is very unique in both of those ways. The why is really much more related to that question around discipline. I had a bachelor's degree in English. Right? And it was something that I understood well. But in my master's degree, right, I was able to really focus in on the art and science of teaching. The the ed specialist is administratively focused, but it depends on which pathway you take. There are 2 pathways, the education leadership pathway and the curriculum and instruction pathway.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:05:53]: And my ed specialist is in curriculum and instruction, really leaning in, right, on not only how do you teach, but how do you build tools that respond to a number of pedagogical approaches. And again, that discipline really kind of scaffolded up to what I would consider a very administratively focused doctorate degree in education leadership, really focusing in education administration. And so I think that for all professionals, we, we want to strike a balance between our professional experiences, what we do every day and the technical skills and training that we receive through graduate school, through professional development. And I think that pathway for me being able to really build discipline in my subject, right, in a way that I appreciate language and I can teach, I can see language in math and I can see language in art and I can see language in history, but then really having to lean in on how do you lead from within individuals, a passion for that subject as well. That's the experience I got from U of M Flint in my masters of teaching, figuring out then how you make that replicable and scalable in a way that produces an outcome for all kids and families, that's where my discipline was built in my education specialist in curriculum and instruction. And then finally, making sure that those systems can exist despite the context in urban context, in rural context, in in suburban context is really the focus of of the doctoral degree. So that so that scaffolded approach to me also with a very consistent, I would say, theory of change being at the same university who was evolving within the urban context. 2008, when I started at U of M Flint was a very different community than 2015, right? When I, when I finished graduate school, post in the middle of the recession in my freshman year, deleting into the water crisis, COVID pandemic, U of M Flint has really evolved in a way that working in the city day to day, what I was learning in graduate school, I was able to deploy immediately, or my professors became my colleague, that type of reciprocity between graduate school and my professional experience was really valuable for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:57]: You know, I'd love to have you go back in time again and think about the transitions because the way that you are educated as an undergraduate student, different than the way that you're educated as a graduate student. And I say that in the sense that transitioning from a bachelor's to a master's, that's one transition. But then you take about 3 years off, and you transition back into an EDS, and then go immediately on to an EDD. But at each of those levels, you're being challenged in different ways to think about things in different ways, to process things in different ways, and your faculty have different expectations. So talk to me about what you had to do throughout each of those transitions to not only prepare yourself well for success, But what did you have to do to be able to truly make that optimal transition in and through the program and maintain that success throughout the different programs that you went through?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:09:03]: Yeah. I think the first step in each of those transitions is building the confidence to believe that you can make the transition. We almost idolize things like graduate degrees and because, you know, fewer and fewer individuals have them as you go through the kind of proportion of society, they become kind of mysterious if you will. And so really just building up the confidence to say that, Hey, I can demystify this thing. I can do this. I think that's the first step in the transition. I can remember I was looking at all of those different master's programs, and I picked up the phone and called the number on the UN Flint site and got doctor Mary Jo Finney in the college of education. You know, she's the director of the program, but that was the first person who I spoke to.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:09:40]: And she just convinced me that this was the right program. Frankly, my GPA wasn't, it didn't match what was on the website. And so again, this whole confidence thing, right, it's it's big because you look at things like that and you say, okay, I don't qualify. Maybe I should move on. But there's always this line about the mix of education and experience. And I don't know that that people really understand how valuable that mix is, right, when you're deciding on a graduate experience. And so my experience as a, you know, a pre college programs leader, as a student in urban education, as someone who was deeply committed to teaching and learning, that was compelling to the University of Michigan, Flint. And while it was compelling to others as well, I was doubling down on a commitment that the university had already made to me.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:10:22]: So I knew my way around campus. I didn't have to figure out where to hang up my coat kind of deal. And so once once kind of getting past the confidence factor, I remember getting into my first graduate course and realizing that these aren't all people who are, who went to undergrad at you in Flint with me, but that once you're moving into the graduate level at the university, you're really moving into a much more regional constituency of mostly educational leaders who are practicing, who are either retooling or leveling up, right, their skills in the field. And so very quickly for me being immediately out of undergrad, sitting in a, in a graduate class with who still I consider to be some of the most profound educational leaders. And we were a cohort, so I still know who they are. I remember my notes on the first day. I just had a long list of words down the margin, just terms I hadn't heard before. And it's like, man, I gotta look these up in order to really to, to perform on par with my peers.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:11:15]: And so I would say that, you know, that can be jarring. And so it kind of takes you back to that confidence factor, obviously. But I think that what I ultimately realized is that the graduate experience is really about the unique contribution that each learner brings to the space. It's not solely about the course and the syllabus. Those will be whatever they are, but what you're doing with that subject, right, it's really the beauty of graduate school, the path between the assignment and the right answer. I mean, you can, depending on what your passion is, there's a lot of different approaches that you can take. And my master's program, that was revealed to me. We would take on issues like student, you know, student attendance and people who really cared about social emotional learning would dive deeply into social emotional approaches.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:11:57]: And people who were real disciplined, most all words, they would lean into the discipline policies that were necessary to address these things. But you realize that that the right answer is really leaning into the thing that you're passionate about and figuring out how do you leverage the resource of this university to make you more disciplined in that passion. And so that's what I learned in my master's degree. And I, and I, and again, it was all about teaching. And so I came out of graduate school as a much more confident leader, as much more confident learner, frankly, and realizing that there was real power in just asking questions that the smartest people in this world are those who know what they don't know. And I took 3 years to really discover the things that I don't know to, to take my master's degree and slam it on the table and realize that there's not a whole lot there. There's a lot undergirding it, but only practice would strengthen with the tools that I have received from from my master's program. And I earned an executive director role and transitioned from teaching into nonprofit leadership and really realized that what happened in my classroom was really an effect of what was going on at a much larger systemic level in part, right? That the curriculum that I taught every day and I could, you know, I could schedule it out.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:13:08]: I could figure out how to make it my own, but that curriculum was directed by someone who had a set of values. And if we're not addressing curriculum from the values and outcomes level, then what we're doing in classrooms will likely be limited. I realized that in those 3 years, my nonprofit leadership, and we were getting into the early childhood space, and I actually was in a meeting, Bob Barnett. He said, Ja'Nelle, have you ever thought about getting a NET specialist? And I said, no. I mean, he said, you know, you, we let's have lunch. You should really consider it. And that lunch, he made me aware of a number of graduate funding opportunities available at the university in a way that really made my education specialist degree know the low cost. And so while I wasn't considering it, it was a legitimate pathway to a doctorate degree, which I did have aspirations for.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:13:50]: I did have interest in curriculum, and the university had a mix of funding sources available for graduate students, particularly those who were practicing in in Genesee County. It was an opportunity. So that transition again, another offer that I couldn't refuse, let me into curriculum and instruction. And in that space, you're beginning to realize that this is about administration. This is not about, this is not about operationalizing what administration directs. This is about directing. And so when there's a different transition there, when you're realizing that what you're not subordinate, if you will, to your professors, right? These are colleagues, these are peers. You need to really hone in on the experience that they're bringing into that classroom.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:14:30]: Interrogate it, challenge it, challenge yourself and your assumptions, because you pay for that safe space. You pay to say the thing that maybe is wrong and would be embarrassing to say in your daily context. But here, no, you can really deal with this, Write a paper about it, if you will. So my ed specialist allowed for me who I had a teaching degree, but I didn't get the experience of teaching for a long period of time in the way that many of my colleagues and peers did. It allowed for me to interrogate a lot of my assumptions about curriculum and about. Instruction. And I think that just set me up well for my doctorate degree when I when I knew that now it's my opportunity to contribute to the field, that mix of not for profit leadership and education preparation and pre college programs. It really led me tightly to a clear dissertation topic that I would be thinking about regardless of if I was in an education program or not.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:21]: So talking about that and talking about the end of the journey, you completed your degrees. You were successful in the journey for all three of those degrees or all four of those degrees. Now that you've completed your EDS, your EdD, how do you feel that the graduate degrees that you received, not only the EDS and EdD, but the masters as well, has prepared you for what you're doing as the chief executive officer for the Flint Center For Educational Excellence?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:15:57]: I think that, you know, I've been it's not only the degree, but it's the context on which it was earned. And so being able to earn graduate degrees as a practitioner, not having to choose between, do I take this job opportunity that allows me to go to sleep every night and wake up every morning thinking about this thing or this great educational experience, but being able to integrate those? It's given me an interesting tool belt. I think I have a good balance between must see how and must know why. I'm a practitioner for sure, but I'm also a researcher. And I think that being able to, to balance those 2 imperatives, but not see them as independent of one another, but really as interconnected and interdependent is the unique, I think, set of skills of of that scaffolded experience from me walking moving from a very implementation granular level of classroom teaching. What are we doing with 30 kids in a room with a highly qualified teacher? Moving up to what does that look like at a system level in my education specialist degree, but then being able to fully explore what does it look like with multiple organisms, if you will, at an ecosystem level and my doctoral degree, making it to the Flood Center For Educational Excellence. This entire work is about building an educational ecosystem that works for all kids. And that means regardless of where they go to school, right, regardless of their family context, regardless of their neighborhood context.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:17:20]: And so the discipline that I built in my education specialist and replicability and scalability of education interventions, yeah, it's very relevant to this work. The 2 years that I spent in classrooms teaching for free as a student teacher in Detroit, very relevant to the work that we do with our network for school excellence and working with instructional leaders across multiple school systems to improve outcomes from Flint Kids. And then ultimately my work in researching how philanthropic foundations influence education reform and small to midsize urban school districts is extremely relevant. And the work that we're doing every day to harness the philanthropic interests, of of our community, connect that those passions and those interests with real opportunities and outcomes related to kids thriving. So a lot of relevance, I caution everyone who's seeking to further their education through graduate school, that it's the balance between, between theory and practice that I think is really the sweet spot and finding a program that honors that balance for where you are in your career. If you're taking a break, right? And you wanna lean all the way in, find a program that allows you to lean all the way in. If you're at a point in your career where you know that you need to advance or you feel that you need more discipline, right. To undergird your practice, find a program that's really focused on a mid career professional.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:18:35]: Who's working every day, but is really willing to lean in every single night to build their discipline. So it's prepared me for sure, but as a practitioner, I'm learning more and more every day, but that ability to learn that ability to interrogate a new issue that may be complex, I would say that muscle I've built, since from that first day as a graduate student with my list of words and terms down my margin to completing my doctorate of education, and that's a muscle that I've definitely built.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:05]: So as you think back to the graduate degrees and the graduate experiences that you've had and you think about students that are coming along behind you, no matter if they're going through an education degree at a graduate level or if they're going to law school, they're going chiropractic school, doesn't matter. What are some tips that you might offer others that are considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:19:33]: The first thing I I would say is just to really fall in love with your subject, whatever it is. So if you're going to law school and people say like, oh, yeah. I should really love the law. It's like I've met a lot of lawyers. I've never met anyone who really just loves the law. I mean, like, what is your subject? What is the thing that you will be thinking about that you would be doing that you care about regardless of what context that you're in? And there's likely opportunities to explore that through graduate education. So I say if you've made the decision to apply to graduate school, if you're already in graduate school, to be unapologetic about your subject and to really fall in love with it. Right? When you have an opportunity to write, write about your subject.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:20:13]: Right? When you have an opportunity to talk about your subject because that's going to make the work effortless. It becomes an opportunity almost to get this thing off your chest, this thing that you will be talking about anyway. So one major tip again would just be to fall in love fall in love with subject and be unapologetic about pursuit of it, no matter what path you've chosen from a graduate perspective. The second would be to really, honor, appreciate, and value the network that exists within any graduate classroom that they're in, their peers and colleagues who sit next to them, but also the professors who are imparting information on them. Many of my professors throughout my graduate education are now my peers and colleagues as chief executives of not for profits or other organizations in Genesee County and in Michigan. And so building rapport with those individuals in a way where social capital already exists, it really has downstream value for you professionally. And I would say that that's true of wherever you find yourself in grad school. And the same thing with your peers.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:21:14]: I tell people all the time that I didn't get the opportunity to teach as long as many of my peers did, but I was educated next to some of the most powerful educators that that that this ecosystem will likely ever, ever experience. And I could pick up the phone and call any of them. Having that network, you don't realize until you're in your office by yourself with the decision to make, and there's no more time to consider this thing. The value of being able to pick up the phone and call someone who understands the context in which you're leading from, but also understands, right, that the the outcome that that you're leading towards and has really had to wrestle with these concepts with you. And so, yeah, I just really value the network that exists, that is imparted on you in graduate school and and don't take it for granted. I'd say, lastly, you know, really hold on to your work product. The entire experience is scaffolded in a way that pushes you as a learner to get what is in your head out, right, in a way that really allows for your deeply held beliefs related to your profession or your subject, if you will, to be interrogated publicly. And, I mean, you don't really know the value or you really don't know how much so strongly you can believe in something until you have to defend it.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:22:29]: But that ability to make an argument defensible, to support an argument with data, to change an argument, if that data tells you something different, those are important skills for leadership that are transferable, I believe. So I just think those three things just really falling in loving falling in love with subject and being unapologetic about connecting all things to it, just really just honoring and valuing that network that that's available to you through graduate school. But then just lastly and certainly not least, just connecting all of those things together.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:02]: Great points, and I truly appreciate you sharing all of those. Definitely things that every person should consider if they're thinking about going for a graduate degree, applying for a graduate degree, and spending the time, the effort, the money to go through that process, to push yourself in so many different ways. Juno, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for all of the pearls of wisdom, for all that you've shared today, and I truly wish you all the best.

Ja'Nel Jamerson [00:23:29]: Definitely. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the path to becoming a physician assistant is a significant journey filled with challenges, growth, and invaluable experiences. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, host Dr. Christopher Lewis had a compelling conversation with graduating physician assistant student Hannah Richard. The dialogue delved deep into Hannah's personal journey, from her decision to pursue a career as a PA to navigating the rigorous demands of PA school. Let's explore key insights and reflections shared by Hannah as she transitions from student life to professional practice.

Discovering the Path to PA School:

Hannah's journey to PA school began with a spark of curiosity and intrigue during her high school anatomy class. Like many aspiring PA students, she was drawn to the profession's blend of medical knowledge and patient care. The process of deciding to pursue graduate education in physician assistant studies involved navigating challenges, doubts, and ultimately reaffirming her commitment to this rewarding career path.

Preparing for PA School:

As Hannah shared, the preparation for PA school goes beyond academic readiness. It requires gaining hands-on experience, accruing clinical hours, and honing essential skills to thrive in the demanding environment of a PA program. From working as a certified nurse assistant to learning procedures and patient assessment, each experience contributed to Hannah's preparedness for the rigorous journey ahead.

Navigating the Challenges of PA School:

PA school is a transformative experience that demands flexibility, resilience, and self-awareness. Hannah highlighted the importance of listening to oneself, understanding when to push forward and when to prioritize self-care. The transition from didactic learning to clinical rotations brings unique challenges, requiring students to adapt their study methods, collaborate with peers, and maintain a balance between academic rigor and personal well-being.

Reflections on Professional Preparedness:

As graduation approaches, Hannah reflects on how her PA school experience has equipped her for the next chapter in her professional journey. The diverse backgrounds and experiences of her classmates have enriched her learning, preparing her to navigate the complexities of patient care with confidence and competence. From mastering procedures to building practical skills, PA school has laid a solid foundation for Hannah's transition into the healthcare workforce.

Advice for Aspiring PA Students:

Drawing from her own experiences, Hannah offers invaluable advice to future PA students embarking on their graduate school journey. She emphasizes the importance of embracing all aspects of life during PA school, from academic pursuits to extracurricular involvement and mental health support. By actively engaging with resources, seeking mentorship opportunities, and maintaining a holistic approach to education, students can maximize their success and personal growth throughout their PA school experience.

Hannah Richard's journey from student to graduating physician assistant is a testament to the dedication, passion, and resilience required to thrive in the field of healthcare. Her insights offer a glimpse into the multifaceted nature of PA education, emphasizing the significance of self-awareness, adaptability, and community engagement in fostering success. As aspiring PA students navigate their own paths, Hannah's story serves as an inspiring reminder of the transformative power of perseverance, learning, and embracing the full spectrum of experiences on the road to becoming a healthcare professional.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I love being on this journey with you. This opportunity to talk to you every week about what you're doing to find success in this journey that you're on. Now you might be just starting to think about grad school. You might be in grad school. You might be looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and you're almost done.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:43]: Wherever you are in this journey, it is a journey. And every person that goes through what you're going through, goes through a unique journey for themselves. What's important is that you have some tools in your toolbox as you apply, as you go through graduate school that you can draw upon to be able to find success on that journey. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about finding ways to be able to help you to find success earlier in that process, to be able to help you to learn more about what you need to be doing as you, as I said, apply, go through and go beyond. So every week, I love being able to bring you different people. People that have gone through grad school, that are going through grad school, and have had different experiences. But those experiences have led them to find success in that journey that they went on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:43]: And today, we have another great guest with us. Hannah Richard is with us today. And Hannah is a graduating physician assistant student from the University of Michigan Flint. She's actually graduating this term and heading off into her professional career. We just talked and talked about her future, and she has a job ready to go, going to be working on the west side of Michigan as a PA in an emergency room, just what just what she wanted to do. So she I know she's really excited about that. She's got a lot of things happening in her life. But throughout that experience, she's been able to find success, and I'm excited for her to share that journey with you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:25]: Hannah, thanks so much for being here today.

Hannah Richard [00:02:26]: I'm excited to be here as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:28]: Well, I'm really excited that you are here today. And I guess let's turn the clock back in time. I would love for you to talk to me about the journey that you went on to be able to, at some point, through that undergraduate experience, you made a decision that you wanted to go further, you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's degree to be able to get that master's degree, and especially masters in physician assistant studies. So talk to me about what went through your head that made you decide that graduate school was

Hannah Richard [00:03:04]: right for you? Yeah. So I think similar to a lot of other master students or for that matter, PA students, we kind of all had a similar epiphany. Maybe in like high school or college. We came into contact with PA's or became aware of the profession. My journey is similar to that. I took an anatomy class in high school and I was really shocked with how much I was intrigued by it. And prior to that, I didn't really have any idea of what I wanted to do in college. And I had time, you know, I was a junior in high school.

Hannah Richard [00:03:34]: And then I started college, and I made my major right away, a general health science degree. And then the university that I went to, Grand Valley, they had a pre PA emphasis, meaning that you could take prerequisite courses and still earn a degree. So I did that, and I'm not gonna lie. There was definitely a time where I changed my degree from that to a different degree just because I'd heard of the daunting process of PA school and how difficult it is to get in. But somewhere along the line, I came back around to PA. I changed my major back, and I just kept putting one foot in front of the other, and I took the prerequisites as needed. Took classes in the summer to kind of graduate faster, and then I knew I needed some health care hours. So I started working during the summer as well, and it was a little bit more difficult for me to work during the school year.

Hannah Richard [00:04:31]: I actually was a college athlete, so I couldn't have a job and swim and go to school. So that kinda slowed things down, but it all worked out for the better. So I took 2 years off before PA school, and during that time I was applying, and the application cycle is very long. It can take probably up to a year. I I'd say that's how long it took me. But from by the time you apply and then you hear back, and then if you interview, and then if you're accepted. So it was a long journey for me, but I'm glad that I'm almost to the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:03]: So you took those 2 years off to figure things out and to make that next step for yourself. And in that journey, you applied, I'm sure, to a number of different graduate schools. You ended up choosing to attend the University of Michigan Flint. Talk to me about that decision making process, and what made you choose that U of M Flint was the right program for you?

Hannah Richard [00:05:26]: Yeah. So I tell everyone this who asks because actually at one point, during my career here, I was a graduate ambassador, so I kind of told the story a lot. But I went to a open house at U of M Flint for the PA program. This was right before the pandemic started, so I think it was probably February of 2020, and professor Gilkey, who is our director, actually was hosting the event, and I just heard all the wonderful things that they were setting up for this program and the promises of great rotations and excellent education and community service, and I was hooked. I was like, this is where I'd like to go. The campus is really nice, and it's somewhere that I've never really been before, so I said this is where I wanted to go. So like you mentioned, obviously, I applied to other places to cast a wide net, but ultimately, I wanted to end up here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:21]: In those 2 years that you took to prepare yourself for applying, I'm sure that you were getting some experience in preparing in that way too, because I know PA programs do require you to have different experiences to prepare you for coming into becoming a physician assistant. Talk to me about the experiences that you had that prepared you for coming into PA school, and and how did that prepare you, or did you feel unprepared in any way when you entered the program?

Hannah Richard [00:06:51]: Great question. I did some research because I knew I needed to find a way to get hours, and I found out the best way for me personally was going to become a certified nurse assistant, which is stands for CNA. And, I took the class. It was a summer class. I think it was like 2 or 3 weeks. And I got a job in a nursing home, around my college campus. And I did that for as long as I could, and I had to stop because I was then entering my senior year of college. After my senior year of college, I stayed on the west side for a little bit longer and I got another job in a different nursing home, one that was hiring.

Hannah Richard [00:07:31]: And I worked there for a while. And then I came kind of towards the end of the road where I felt like I needed more experience. I was also kind of ready to not work on the weekends, and it's definitely a hard job, and I was ready for something different. So I had some connections which was fantastic which was fantastic. And because I was able to use some of the experiences I had from being a CNA and then learn so many new skills. I learned how to give injections, how to obviously take vitals. I did some charting. I was trained as kind of a part time scribe as well, so I was really grateful for the physicians and PAs and MPs that worked there.

Hannah Richard [00:08:20]: They were willing to train me because they knew that I ultimately wanted to be a PA, and so they kinda pushed me out of my comfort zone. So I will say if I did not have that medical assistant experience, I probably would have struggled a little bit in PA school because, ultimately, we are providers, and we are responsible for charting and just assessing the patient overall, and I think I got a good taste of that when I was working in a

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:53]: physician assistant student, and it is a demanding program. It's a dem it's a demanding sequence of events, didactic learning, clinical learning, taking what you're learning from the class, putting it into action. Talk to me about some of those moments, some of the things that you didn't expect when you entered into PA school that you had to learn for yourself that would have helped you maybe to know earlier?

Hannah Richard [00:09:17]: That is definitely a deep question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is flexibility. I think that when students who were to some degree successful in their undergraduate career because you have to achieve good prerequisite grades and also have a part time job or a full time job getting the hours. I think a lot of us can be kind of set in our ways as far as studying or preparing for certain assessments. And I think the biggest thing PACE will taught me is to be flexible, that some ways of studying won't be the same as they were in college. So I kind of drew on many ways of studying. I would write things out. I would look at charts.

Hannah Richard [00:09:58]: I would read books. I listened to podcasts, which is something I never did before. There's a lot of great PA podcasts, so I think flexibility is one of the biggest things as far as what I had to kind of learn to adapt to. And then I think another thing about PA school that's really interesting is reaching out and being with people in your class. I think in undergraduate studies, I studied a lot alone. And when I was found myself in PA school, I studied with a group of friends frequently, and I think it helped all of our grades and helped all of our comprehension when you're talking and singing out loud. And then, of course, when it comes to patient evaluation course that we have, we have to actually perform the exams on fake patients. And so that was a perfect opportunity to bring in your friends to for that.

Hannah Richard [00:10:49]: So I think flexibility and then just kind of accepting that other people around you has something to share just like you do as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:57]: So you took a couple of years off between your undergraduate work at Grand Valley and then came into grad school. And every student, when they make that transition into graduate school, it is a transition. And you do have to think about things differently, learn differently. You kind of mentioned some of those pieces. Talk to me about what you had to do to truly find success in that transition and what you had to do to maintain that success throughout your time in the PA program.

Hannah Richard [00:11:28]: That's a good question. I think one of the biggest things for me was learning to listen to myself. And when I say that, I mean, listening to how I felt. And this changed from didactic year, which is the 1st year of our pro 1st year and a half actually, to clinical year, which is another year. So in didactic, the studying is completely different. But I learned to listen to myself and see how I felt. If I if it was the end of the day and it was after dinner, I was tired. I didn't push myself too hard.

Hannah Richard [00:12:03]: I would, you know, try to commit to maybe, say, 30 minutes of reading out of a textbook versus an hour and a half of studying. And this was especially true in clinical year, which is the year that I'm just completing. And the reason is is because we are driving all over to our rotation sites, and we deal with patients and providers and preceptors, and we still have to go home at the end of the day and study. So I think I really, really tuned into myself how I was feeling. Because if you're too tired and your brain is just zapped, you're not gonna be able to retain information. And I no one told me that before I came into PA school. I think everyone things I had heard would then were just like study, study, study, like, pull all nighters and, you know, do all the stuff that can make you successful. Well, I think that's absolutely absolutely not the case.

Hannah Richard [00:12:56]: I think you have to give yourself grace because we are we're human. And I think that's true for when you practice as a PA.

Hannah Richard [00:12:56]: You can't go, go, go, go and go, go, go, go and not listen to yourself because at the end of the day, the people that will be harmed by that are the patients and then ultimately yourself.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:17]: And now you're getting to the end of your program. And as I said, you have this opportunity now to go out and to start in your career. Talk to me about the learning that you went through, through that didactic learning, through the clinical experiences. How do you feel that that has prepared you for the next step in your own professional journey?

Hannah Richard [00:13:40]: I think it's prepared me really well. I think one of the cool things about preschool is that everyone comes in with different backgrounds, kind of like you mentioned. So while someone may have worked in a nursing home, someone may have worked in a doctor's office, someone may have been a scribe in a hospital. And I think that's really cool and not a lot of professions kind of get that pre master's degree or pre doctorate degree education and learning experience. So I think having different classmates with different specialties prior to b school is is huge. You know, someone may be able to help you on this topic, and others may be able to help you on this exam or procedures. Something that I think gets overlooked to the general public who may not know a lot about PA school is while we're learning this information, we're also learning procedures. So we have days where we learn lumbar punctures and chest tubes and arterial lines and IVs.

Hannah Richard [00:14:36]: And because that is a part of our training. And even if you go into say a cardiology office and you may not use those procedures, you still have to learn them and become competent in them. So kind of to, like, round up your question is, I think it prepared me and my classmates really well, and I think it's something that is just really neat about PA schools that we all have different experiences.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:01]: Now earlier, you mentioned that in your time at the University of Michigan Flint, you also acted as an ambassador, and you talked to prospective students. And I guess as you're talking to students specifically about becoming a physician assistant or about applying to becoming a physician assistant down the road. What were some of the biggest concerns, and how did you help those students to deal with those concerns as a ambassador for the program?

Hannah Richard [00:15:33]: Some of the biggest concerns clearly were the application process, and this had very little to do with U M Flint and very much to do with just the standardized process of applying to PA school. So I had a lot of questions, and these students would reach out to me via email, phone call, in person events. Our program hosted showcase night. I don't know how to describe it other than that, but, oh, kind of like an open house. So I would get a lot of questions on, does this prerequisite match this prerequisite? However, that's more difficult to answer because, every undergraduate degree and prerequisite may fit U of M Flint versus a different university. So that was a huge one. I think a lot of hurdles that people were experiencing were finding clinical hours and shadowing hours. I know that COVID kinda changed the landscape of medicine in some good ways and some not so good ways.

Hannah Richard [00:16:32]: So for instance, I know a lot of students struggled to find shadowing hours because the pandemic repercussions lasted for a few years or even ongoing currently. So, not a lot of offices or hospitals wanted kind of an extra student following them around potentially exposing or being exposed to COVID. So and that is something that PA programs almost all absolutely require is shadowing hours because they want to know why you want to be a PA versus a nurse practitioner or an or physician. So that was another big hurdle. And then I think other questions that we got were regarding to our experience in the program. 1 of our professors say that picking a PA program is kind of like dating, So you have to like the program, and they have to like you, which I think is a funny analogy, but it's actually absolutely true. So they wanted to know kind of what our day to day life was like, the subjects we learned, did we have a cadaver lab? Is there on campus coffee stores? And so I was more than happy to answer the dry or mundane questions as far as applications, and then I was equally as happy to tell them about my life. And did I move from Metro Detroit and or did I commute? And I was just happy to kind of share my experience here because I would have absolutely loved to talk to someone like that at any of the programs I applied to.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:56]: Now one of the things you just mentioned was the fact that sometimes students are trying to determine and they are asked the question of, okay, why PA? Why not MD? Why not getting a nurse practitioner degree? You made the choice that you wanted to become a physician assistant. And through your undergraduate program, you probably could have been and could have gone the route of MD. What made you decide that PA was right for you?

Hannah Richard [00:18:23]: You know, I used to have this answer down pat and memorized for applications and interviews. And now that almost 3 years have passed, I don't have a standardized answer, which is a good thing. I wanted to be a PA for a few reasons. And one of them was I was looking for a right fit for the kind of life I wanted. I wanted to be out and practicing earlier in my life rather than later. And I think physicians have great lives and great careers. However, their training is obviously longer. So not only do they have 4 years of med school after undergraduate, they have residency, which can be anywhere from 2 years to 4 years to 8 years, depending on the specialty.

Hannah Richard [00:19:08]: So they wanted to be able to practice earlier. Another thing was is that I had a great experience with the PA. In college, I spent a lot of time in the athletic training room. Swimming can be hard on the body, but I was seeing a PA and I was just so intrigued. She was so knowledgeable and she spent so much time with me, and I had really never experienced anything like it. You know, your family doctor is more often than not, especially back when I was growing up in high school and college, a physician. So to have experience with this PA, I was just like taken aback. And especially when I started shadowing the PAs, I shadowed a PA who worked in orthopedic surgery and she was first assisting the surgeon in knee replacement and the hip replacement and a partial knee.

Hannah Richard [00:19:53]: And I was just shocked that you can be a PA. You can have some aspects of what it's like to be a physician. You can have some aspects of what it's like to be a more, just like a different role. And it just fit really well for me in my life. And I at some point, you have to pick a career and you can't say this or that. You have to just start making progress towards it. And that is for all those reasons I chose to be a PA because ultimately I wanted to practice and treat patients and just provide good care.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:28]: Now as you think about people that are coming behind you, whether they're going into becoming a physician assistant or some other career area, but they're thinking about graduate school in general. What's one piece of advice you'd wanna give to every student that is looking for ways to find success sooner in their graduate school experience?

Hannah Richard [00:20:48]: That is a tough question to pinpoint it down to something that would help them to success sooner. I would have to say, continue living your life. And when I say that, I mean, when you're in graduate school, it's very easy to put the blinders on and be a graduate student. Go to class, go to lectures, go to clinicals. But another thing our professor says life does not stop just because you're in PA school. So my advice would be, go to that rec volleyball game, go to the gym with your classmates, attend volunteering events and get involved with things like becoming a graduate ambassador or anything mentoring upcoming students. I think the more you put in, the more you'll get out, and it's very easy to just put your head down, get your degree, and, you know, walk away a successful, successfully licensed PA. But the more that you put in, like I said, the more you'll get out.

Hannah Richard [00:21:49]: So I think use the resources. If you need mental health counseling, take advantage of that at U of M. If you need someone to talk to, if you wanna join a club, if you wanna do anything, I say take advantage of it because once that 28 months are over, your life is And so I knew that I wanted to look back and say, say I did everything I was interested in. And that also included student society. I was a representative for our student association of the state of Michigan. So just do it all. That is my advice to find success earlier.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:22]: Well, Hannah, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for walking us through this path that you've been on, and I am looking forward to hearing more about your own professional journey as you move forward in your career, and I wish you all the best.

Hannah Richard [00:22:39]: Yes. Thank you. I appreciate it so much. And I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me and listen to my story. I always say that an attitude of gratitude is best, and I am very grateful for everything that U of M Flint has provided me. And I try to give them back everything that they have given me, including the opportunity to be a physician assistant. So thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:05]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umfluent dot eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the journey of graduate education is a significant milestone in one's life. It is a pathway filled with self-exploration, knowledge acquisition, and transformation. In the podcast episode featuring Sasha Wakefield, a high school math teacher from Clio, Michigan, her story reflects the essence of this transformative journey. With a passion for learning and a drive for success, Sasha shares insights from her educational pursuits, offering valuable lessons for aspiring graduate students.

Discovering the Desire for Education

Sasha's educational journey began with overcoming challenges early on in her life. As a teen mother facing uncertainties, she found her determination to pursue higher education. Starting at Mott Community College and later transferring to Ferris State University, Sasha's thirst for knowledge led her to a career in teaching. Her story exemplifies resilience and the power of pursuing one's dreams despite obstacles.

Choosing the Path: Master's Degree and Beyond

Sasha's decision to further her education by pursuing a master's degree at Concordia University was driven by a combination of factors. Financial considerations, program offerings, and a passion for mathematics education influenced her choice. Her dedication to paying off her student loans and gaining specialized knowledge in curriculum instruction showcased her commitment to professional growth.

Exploring Educational Leadership

Transitioning to an Educational Specialist Degree at the University of Michigan Flint, Sasha delved into educational leadership, broadening her perspective on the public education system. With aspirations to enhance her role as an educator and leader within the school community, Sasha embraced the opportunity to gain insights into administrative functions and community partnerships. Her choice to continue her education at UM Flint reflects her positive experiences and strong connection to the institution.

Balancing Passion and Profession

Sasha's success in her educational pursuits stems from her unwavering passion for teaching. Viewing education as a source of happiness and fulfillment, she emphasizes the importance of wholehearted commitment to one's goals. Sasha's dedication to continuous learning and improvement not only enriches her teaching practice but also inspires her students to discover their own passions and pursue them with vigor.

Impact of Graduate Education on Teaching

The knowledge and skills acquired through Sasha's master's and specialist degrees have greatly influenced her teaching practice. By integrating leadership perspectives and community engagement strategies, she has gained a deeper understanding of the education system's complexity. Through continuous reflection and application of her learning, Sasha has become a more effective educator, dedicated to enhancing student achievement and fostering a supportive learning environment.

Celebrating Success: Michigan Teacher of the Year Finalist

Sasha's recognition as a finalist for the Michigan Teacher of the Year Award stands as a testament to her dedication and exemplary work in the field of education. Her journey of hard work, resilience, and relentless pursuit of excellence serves as an inspiration to her students and colleagues. The accolade not only validates Sasha's commitment to education but also highlights her impact as a role model within the educational community.

Embracing the Graduate School Journey

Sasha's story encapsulates the essence of embarking on a graduate school journey with passion and purpose. Her experiences underscore the importance of following one's passions, embracing challenges, and committing wholeheartedly to personal and professional growth. Aspiring graduate students can glean valuable lessons from Sasha's journey, finding inspiration to navigate their own educational paths with determination and enthusiasm.

Sasha Wakefield's narrative exemplifies the transformative power of education and the unwavering dedication required to succeed in the field of teaching. Her journey serves as a beacon of inspiration for individuals embarking on their own graduate education pursuits, illuminating the path towards personal and professional fulfillment. By embracing the journey with passion and perseverance, one can overcome obstacles, achieve milestones, and make a lasting impact in the realm of education.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. I'm really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to walk with you on this journey that you're on. And I call it a journey because it truly is a journey. Every person going to graduate school, every person thinking about graduate school is going to be going on a true journey, a journey of self exploration, a journey of knowledge acquisition, a journey in so many different ways that will transform you to a brand new person. Because by the end of your graduate degree, you're going to have a lot more skills, a lot more tools in your toolbox, and you're gonna be ready to roll for whatever you want to do next. And that's why this show exists.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: This show exists to be able to give you some insights, give you insights from others that have gone before you. People that are currently going through graduate school, people that have gone through graduate school. And every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have gone on this journey themselves and can share with you some of the things that they've had to do to be able to find success in that journey. This week, we got another great guest with us. Sasha Wakefield is with us. And Sasha is a high school math teacher in Clio, Michigan. And she currently is working on an EDS, an educational specialist degree. She already has a master's degree and a bachelor's degree, an associate's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:41]: She's one of those lifelong learners that continues her her own educational pursuits. We're gonna learn about that journey that she has gone on, but also is on currently to share that journey with you. Sasha, thanks so much for joining us today.

Sasha Wakefield [00:01:55]: Sasha Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: It is my pleasure having you here today. And first and foremost, what I would love to do is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I know you did your undergraduate work at Ferris State University. Before that, you were at Mott Community College doing your associate's degree. But then at some point in that journey, whether it was at Ferris State or after you jumped into that professional career, there was a point in time where you said to yourself, I need to go further. I need to continue my education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to take that next step and go to get a graduate degree?

Sasha Wakefield [00:02:32]: I think that that journey for me started much before that, to be honest with you. I was a teen mother. I had my first child at the age of 16 years old. And I went to 6 different high schools before I finally graduated high school. I moved out on my own and I went to several alternative high schools, and I didn't even graduate high school on time. I graduated later than my peers, and I did not know if I could go to college. I was very poor, and I just decided that I needed to do that. I needed to go to college.

Sasha Wakefield [00:03:11]: And I did enroll at Mott Community College and started taking classes through there. And I just wanted to be a teacher from the second I, I don't know, started college. And, from there, I truly wanted to learn everything that I could. I just felt like I was constantly trying to learn. I was curious all of the time, and I just couldn't get enough. And the beautiful piece about this is that while I was at Mott, I decided that I loved mathematics and I continued to pursue, math math courses in which I kinda ran out at Mott. And I decided to enroll at U of M to take math courses at U of M. And, Mott has a pretty good program where they have other, universities on campus.

Sasha Wakefield [00:04:07]: And so I ended up getting that bachelor's degree through Ferris State University, but on the Mott Community College campus. But the majority of my math classes were at U of M, and I I truly loved the campus at U of M. I loved everyone in the admissions department. They really worked with me as a transfer student. I was working full time during the day. At that time, I was a mother of 2, so I was working full time during the day, and then I was taking college classes at night. And then from there, when I was able to graduate, I did take about 7 years before I decided that I was gonna go back for my masters. And I think those 7 years are just kind of getting on your feet.

Sasha Wakefield [00:04:49]: For myself, it was getting on my feet, kind of establishing a salary and teaching. And my kids were very active then in sports. And so about 7 years later, I was like, oh, alright. It's time. It's time because I missed it. And and I love that part about myself. You know, as a young mother, you're constantly, like, giving to kids. But I think that that is also a little hobby of mine.

Sasha Wakefield [00:05:10]: I just really enjoy learning. So that was that little bit of I need to go further because I enjoy it. But also as well, it gives an opportunity for me to talk to like minded individuals who also enjoy talking about education, who also enjoy learning and collaborating at that level. So I think that was, for me, another reason to to go back and get my master's degree. And then just recently, just this past year, I just said, okay. I'll miss it again. I think I'm always gonna miss it. I I could be a lifelong college student maybe.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:46]: So you had originally decided to go to get your master's degree at Concordia University. You got your master's degree from Concordia. There are many different schools that are out there that you probably could have selected for a master's degree. Talk to me about that thought process as you were going through deciding not only that you were going to graduate school, but where you wanted to attend, and what ultimately made you decide that Concordia was the place where you wanted to go for that master's degree?

Sasha Wakefield [00:06:17]: Great question. I think the choices that I made as a young adult, I didn't realize it at the time, but they did shape the trajectory of my life. And having a child so young really forced me to have to make some decisions where finance was really important. So I looked at different schools to go to for a master's degree and Concordia was on the least expensive side and it was from home. I could do it virtually, which is before virtual was super popular. And so that really worked out for me. The ease that fit into my schedule and financial as well. I had already had some student loans for my undergrad, and I just didn't wanna take anymore.

Sasha Wakefield [00:07:04]: I wanted to pay it out of pocket and I only had certain amount saved up. So that was really that decision. They also had a great program at the time for the curriculum instruction. So I had a focus in mathematics education with curriculum, and I was very interested in that field at the time. So kind of all of that put together was like a little bit of a perfect fit for me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:29]: And as you mentioned just a little bit ago, you now are in an educational specialist degree, and you chose to attend the University of Michigan Flint for that degree. Again, there's other EDS programs that are out there. Talk to me about that process as you decided that you were itching to get back into education again and to continue to learn in different ways. And as you were making that decision to go not only to the EDS, but first, I guess, first and foremost, why the EDS versus just jumping right to a a PhD or an EDD versus and then why the University of Michigan Flint?

Sasha Wakefield [00:08:04]: I remember the great memories that I had at U of M with the undergrad. I remember the staff. I remember doctor Bix. I remember professor Schilling. I remember being a transfer student, but yet feeling so accepted as if my degree was coming from U of M. The department of the financial aid department, they were pretty awesome. And I just remember everyone just being so kind and so nice. So those fun feelings carried on.

Sasha Wakefield [00:08:32]: It just seemed natural. I've just been all over that campus with those math courses and a couple of the courses that I'd taken at U of M. It just felt comfortable. For the EDS, to be honest, I could have jumped into a PhD, but I think it was those fond memories that I had with U of M Flint, specifically, that I looked at their graduate program and I was, like, alright. They have an educational specialist. I'm interested in that. So it kinda worked out that way. I'm really grateful for U of M Flint.

Sasha Wakefield [00:09:02]: They have made the process for me to continue my education. It's almost seamless in a way that it just feels so accepting, like you're just you're meant to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:13]: Now you've gone through a master's. You're in a specialist degree right now. You're doing quite well in all of your studies here, but also in the past, you were successful in that journey. So talk to me about as you made those transitions, the transition to your masters, the transition to your specialist, each of those transitions are true transitions. You have to be able to not only master's degree to a specialist degree, again, you're being taught in a different way. You're being there's different expectations. So talk to me about what you've had to do currently or in the past to help you to find success, what you had to do to be able to set yourself up at the beginning of those educational opportunities, but also what you had to do throughout the time that you've been in these degrees to help you maintain that success throughout the journey?

Sasha Wakefield [00:10:10]: I believe that you will be successful if you want it. I want it that bad. I want it that much. I don't half want it. I didn't half I don't kinda want my master's degree. I kinda want it. I'm all in, and that's just the type of person that I I am. If I'm going to do something, I'm going to give a 100% of myself.

Sasha Wakefield [00:10:35]: I don't ever say I'm going to do something and then I just kinda do it. Because at the end of the day and I put my head on the pillow and am I proud of myself? Yes or no? I really would like people to follow their path and whatever makes them happy. And education makes me insanely happy. So much so that I'm just so passionate and I'm so driven that it helps me with my success because it's all I kind of think about. I do have hobbies. I do. But it's when you find something that you truly enjoy, then you just, at ease, just put the effort into it. And I just feel very fortunate that I was able to find that.

Sasha Wakefield [00:11:18]: I found that at a young age, and I tell my own students that. I just want you to find something that you're passionate in because then it just will start naturally being a part of who you are. So I was very fortunate. I didn't have to make any huge sacrifices because it's like, oh, I got this 10 page paper due. No. It's like, I'm already on it. I love this paper. I have already researched this.

Sasha Wakefield [00:11:42]: I'm excited to put my thoughts on paper and share my ideas with other colleagues. And just that excitement is what I hope that everyone is able to find in their own life, whatever that may be.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:54]: Now you finished the master's degree. You're in the specialist degree. You're learning new things. And I guess as you look back at your master's degree in what you're doing today, but also your specialist degree in the courses that you've taken thus far, how are you finding that what you have learned through your graduate degree, your master's degree that you already have completed, and also the coursework that you finished are showing up in the work that you do on a daily basis?

Sasha Wakefield [00:12:20]: I think it gives gives me currently right now a greater perspective of education. So currently, in the educational specialist, you receive a a central office endorsement and administrator certificate. And so I'm kind of seeing public education in the lens that I've never looked before. So I've I've only really looked at it from a teacher's perspective. And then with my master's, it was like, alright. How can I become a better teacher? And that was how I was looking at with my master's. But with the educational specialist, completely different view from the leadership that I don't really have a whole lot of experience in. And so I'm very curious on what that looks like in terms of community partnership.

Sasha Wakefield [00:13:08]: And as a leader in a building potentially, changes my perspective too because it just opens up to not the complexity, but the different roles that are within a school district and what those responsibilities are with each role. And then with anything, I mean, once you have a greater understanding of the way something works and you have a greater understanding of kind of the whole big picture. And I'm able to just kinda take a step back and see the public school district as one whole entity instead of just my small view as a teacher. And that's just so powerful too because it really helps me understand maybe some of the decisions that are made that, from a teacher's view, you're like, oh, I don't really understand that. But maybe as an educational leader, you're like, okay. That's kind of the reason why. So that's also, a neat, I don't know, perspective, I guess, to see that I've been able to take with me so far.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:17]: Now one of the other things that I haven't mentioned is you are a finalist for the Michigan Teacher of the Year Award. And congratulations. That is amazing. And I guess as you look back at at what you have learned along the way, and you just talked about how you're incorporating some of that learning, how does does that graduate work make you a better teacher? And how has that allowed for you to be able to be at the place that you are right now to help you to be considered for being the Michigan teacher of the year?

Sasha Wakefield [00:14:48]: I think with every experience that we have, we choose to take small nuggets of each of them, And I believe that that's what I've been able to do successfully. With each professional development, with each professor that I sit in front of, I do my best to try to grab every little piece and kinda try to, in my mind, apply it to my everyday. Think about what will make that how I will make that into a better teacher, better for my students. I'm constantly wanting to think about how do I increase student achievement. What can I do to listen to students more? Yeah. I guess, gosh, everything. It's like the worst answer ever, but it truly is.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:35]: And I have to ask because not there's so few individual teachers that do get this recognition to be even considered as a not only a regional award winner, but as the Michigan Teacher of the Year. What does that mean to you in the work that you have done to to get you to where you are today? And what does this recognition mean to you?

Sasha Wakefield [00:15:57]: It means everything. Everything. First, I love that it gives me the opportunity to have a voice for all the amazing teachers that I have come encounter with and that I haven't met yet. And I I think that that is just a truly a great honor to be able to have that opportunity. When I received the phone call that I was the regional teacher of the year, region 5 for the 24, 25 year, I instantly sobbed. And that was a moment that I will not forget. And I've thought about this process constantly because I always will look at any situation and I'll say, alright. How can I improve? What else could I have done differently? What can I do differently? What am I proud of myself on, and then what can I improve on? And I've shared this journey with my students.

Sasha Wakefield [00:16:58]: I think that that's the best way for students to learn is for them to see through someone else's, like, their shoes, which is basically this podcast. Right? You're kinda sharing your story, and I share it with my students. And I remember telling them before that last round for the Michigan Teacher of the Year, the process that I did. It was Monday, Monday morning. And I said, hey, guys. Hope you had a good weekend. And I was like, oh, yeah. What'd you guys do? And then they asked me what I did, and I said, well, on Friday, I said goodbye to you.

Sasha Wakefield [00:17:31]: And I went home and I got on my computer, and I worked until I went to bed at about 11 o'clock at night. And then I woke up the next morning pretty early, poured myself a cup of coffee, and I worked on the computer until 11 o'clock at night. And I did not stop. And then I woke up the next day on Sunday and I worked, same, until about 5 o'clock. And I took a deep breath and I walked away from the computer and I was done. And it was final with what I wanted to submit for the last round for the Michigan teacher of the year. And I shared that, and they're like, what? What? You did not. And I was like, yes, I did.

Sasha Wakefield [00:18:06]: Absolutely, I did. And they're like, what if you did all that for nothing? Like, what if you just they tell you you didn't make it to the next round. You just did all of that for nothing. And I said, no. I didn't. I wanted it that bad, and I was gonna give the best that I could of myself. And they're like, yeah. But you just might not get it.

Sasha Wakefield [00:18:23]: And I said, that's okay. I'm gonna be proud of myself because I gave it everything that I got. And that's what you do in life. If you really really hard for it. And if I don't get the next round, I'm I'm just really proud of the work that I have done. And so it was kinda cool because then I was like, hey, guys. Guess what? Guess what that hard work? And they're like, you got it. And I was like, I did.

Sasha Wakefield [00:18:45]: And so that was just really cool to share those moments with them so they can kind of see someone kind of going through that struggle and what they're going through. And, definitely, I would've shared it instantly. Nope, guys. I didn't get it, but I'm pretty proud of myself. Do you guys wanna see what I did and what I submitted? And just sharing that along the way?

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:02]: So as you think about other students, other people that are thinking about graduate school, maybe they're in graduate school and they're working their way through and trying to figure out this whole journey for themselves. As you look back to your own experience and you think about what you had to do, what are some tips that you might offer others considering graduate education that would help them find success sooner?

Sasha Wakefield [00:19:25]: I would give them the same advice I give my own adult children is I would want them to follow what makes them happy. I want them to follow their passion. And if you wanna go to graduate to get a better job, make sure it's the job that you're gonna fall in love with, that you really want. If you're unsure, research. Put yourself in those shoes of those individuals who have that degree. Would you love that job? And once you find what you really love, then that that's a whole game changer. And then with graduate school, because you know that you're gonna really enjoy it, that's when it becomes fun. That's when it doesn't become work and tedious.

Sasha Wakefield [00:20:10]: Oh, I gotta get this done. It's more like I wanna get this done because I'm interested in it. I'm interested what this assignment is about. I'm excited what it's what it's gonna teach me, what I'm gonna learn from it. And so I really want individuals, when they're thinking about graduate school to think about would I would I really enjoy that path? And then if that answer is yes, then definitely do it. If you're unsure, test the waters and and see what you like and what you don't like.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:36]: Well, Sasha, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for being here today, for sharing your own experiences, for sharing your journey. And I'm looking forward to hearing what happens with the Michigan teacher of the year. And no matter what the outcome is, you're doing amazing things in your district. You're doing amazing things in your own education, and you're being a great role model for your own kids. Not only the kids that live may live with you or maybe they're outside of the house, but also the kids that you impact day to day within your schools. So thank you for being that role model for others. Thank you for sharing your journey, and I wish you all the best.

Sasha Wakefield [00:21:13]: Thank you so much.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:14]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit flint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on a journey through graduate school can be both challenging and rewarding. In a recent podcast episode of Victors in Grad School, Jennifer Phillips, a graduate of the University of Michigan Flint's MBA program, shared her personal journey and the lessons she learned along the way. Her experiences offer valuable insights for current and prospective graduate students seeking to navigate the path to success.

Setting Yourself Up for Success:

Jennifer's decision to pursue a graduate degree was fueled by her passion for lifelong learning. Despite being a full-time working mom with family obligations, she found the flexibility of online classes at the University of Michigan Flint to be a key factor in her decision. By carefully managing her time and balancing her priorities, Jennifer was able to embark on her graduate school journey with determination and focus.

Choosing the Right Program and Institution:

When it came to choosing the Master of Business Administration program at the University of Michigan Flint, Jennifer considered a variety of factors. The program's flexibility, convenience, affordability, and alignment with her entrepreneurial aspirations played a crucial role in her decision-making process. By selecting a program that resonated with her goals and values, Jennifer set herself up for success from the outset.

Overcoming Challenges and Seeking Support:

As Jennifer progressed through her MBA program, she encountered obstacles and moments of self-doubt. However, her willingness to reach out for support and guidance proved to be pivotal in overcoming these challenges. By seeking advice from faculty, taking a semester off when needed, and relying on her support system, Jennifer was able to navigate difficult times and stay on track towards completing her degree.

The Power of Continuous Learning:

Reflecting on her graduate education, Jennifer emphasizes the invaluable skills and knowledge she acquired during her MBA program. These insights not only enhanced her professional capabilities but also opened up new possibilities for her future endeavors. By embracing a mindset of continuous learning and growth, Jennifer is well-equipped to pursue her entrepreneurial aspirations and thrive in her professional life.

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students:

Drawing from her own experiences, Jennifer offers practical advice for individuals considering graduate school. She encourages prospective students to overcome self-doubt, take the first step towards their educational goals, and approach their journey one step at a time. By emphasizing the value of investing in oneself and seizing opportunities for growth, Jennifer inspires others to pursue their academic aspirations with confidence and determination.

Jennifer Phillips's journey through graduate school serves as a testament to the resilience, dedication, and passion required to succeed in academic pursuits. Her story illuminates the importance of perseverance, self-care, and seeking support during challenging times. By following her example and embracing the value of lifelong learning, current and prospective graduate students can chart a course towards academic and professional success.

In the end, Jennifer's insights remind us that the journey through graduate school is not just about obtaining a degree but about personal growth, professional development, and the enduring pursuit of knowledge and excellence. TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week as always, we are on a journey together. I love being able to talk to you every week as I know that you are on your own journey, your own journey of going into through and looking at the end of graduate school. But as you're looking at all of that, hopefully, one of the things that you're thinking about is what you can do to be successful in this journey because it does take effort. It takes time, and it takes a lot of forethought to make sure that you're doing what you can to be successful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:59]: And there are things that you can do right today that'll set yourself up on the right foot to be able to help you to find that success. And that's what this show is all about. This show is all about helping you to be able to see different ways, different things that you can do to be able to be successful in this journey that you're on. In every week, I love being able to bring you different people, people that have gone before you, that have decided to to go to graduate school, gone through graduate school and have found success. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Jennifer Phillips is with us and Jennifer did her undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint, got a bachelor of applied sciences and economics, and then a few years later made a decision to go back to school and get that master of business administration degree also at the University of Michigan Flint. So we're gonna be talking to her about her own journey and what she learned along that path. And I'm really excited to have her here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:07]: Jennifer, thanks so much for being here today.

Jennifer Phillips [00:02:09]: Thank you for having me, Chris.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:11]: It is my pleasure. I love being able to talk to people about the journeys that they have gone through. And what I would love to do is is I wanna turn the clock back in time. I wanna go all the way back to your undergraduate days first, and let's talk about as you're going through that degree, then you left your undergraduate work, went back into the work world after completing off that degree. And I know you did you did work while you were going through your undergrad as well and had that experience. But at some point you made a decision to continue with your education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to go to get that graduate degree?

Jennifer Phillips [00:02:50]: So for me, the reason that I chose grad school was because I consider myself a lifelong learner. Ever since I was young, I felt that I would always go on and work my way through graduate school. And for me, my life, you know, took turns in different directions. And I was a working mom, full time mom when I got my undergrad degree. And for me starting grad school, there was a gap between my undergrad and my graduate degree because of having the young kids at home and having to help them with their studies. I needed to know that I had time for my own studies so that I could be successful. So I was excited to be able to start when I did start and the flexibility that's offered by grad school, being able to take the classes on my own time online, most of them I could schedule around my own schedule and family obligations and work. I figured I would make a go of it, and I'm glad that I started.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:45]: So when you did decide to go back to grad school, you decided to get a master's of business administration, and you decided to get that at the University of Michigan Flint. There are many different schools, many different programs that are out there. Talk to me about the decision making that you went through when you did make that decision to go back to graduate school and what was going through your head in regard to why the Master of Business Administration? But 2, why the business administration, but 2, why the University of Michigan Flint?

Jennifer Phillips [00:04:17]: Prior to working at the university where I am employed currently, I was an entrepreneur myself and I see myself going back into that maybe when I'm retired, getting into entrepreneurial aspirations that I have. U of M Flint, I chose U of M as my alma mater. I've began classes right out of high school actually and returned decades later. And I have a special place in my heart for U of M Flint. When I looked at the offerings for the MBA, it was something that I could do. It was flexible. There were some evening classes, and just the setup of it was great for me. The convenience was perfect for me.

Jennifer Phillips [00:04:56]: The affordability, the university invests in their own, and they made it an easy choice for me. The flexibility, as I said, in the scheduling worked for me. And those are the reasons I chose U of M Flint. I wanna see Flint be successful and U of M is a bright spot in the city of Flint. And so I'm happy to to be able to support as a student and to earn my graduate degree there as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:18]: Now I know that there was a couple of years between when you got your undergraduate degree when you went back for your graduate degree. And anytime that you make a transition from different degrees from different levels of degrees, there's different ways in which you're educated. And there's a transition that you have to go through to be able to find success in that journey for yourself. You did get through your degree, you finished off your MBA, so you found success in that journey. As you think back to the beginning of your graduate degree and that transition back into school after being out for a little bit of time, what did you have to do to be able to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain your success throughout your graduate school journey

Jennifer Phillips [00:06:07]: to revisit kind of what I let into in the beginning for me, I did want to continue right away with my education, but I knew that I had to put my family first. My kids were young at the time. My youngest son, it was once he finally finished 6th grade that he was then independent and able to manage his homework with very little help from me where I knew that then I would have the free time. So I actually kinda hung around the flagpole. I stayed close to the graduate programs during those years, would put visit the open houses that you'd have and things just to let you know that I'm here and I'm coming and was just waiting for the right time. So for myself, as I said, I, you know, working full time is kids in school, had a husband, a family, school sports, things like that, taking my time. I decided to go to school part time to work it in around all of that. So it took me 4 years to get my degree and that was my choice so that I could have the work life balance.

Jennifer Phillips [00:07:01]: And that worked well for me to maintain. I took it seriously. I set aside the time. I sacrificed my evenings and some sleep for studying every semester that began, I'd get my syllabus and set out my calendar so I could see when my due dates were so that I knew that I would make all the deadlines for my assignments and exams. And that just helped me to chart out a path throughout the semester. I had a lot of family support. My family was in my court. My classmates were my gym buddies.

Jennifer Phillips [00:07:30]: You know, they kept me going when I feel like I was browning a little bit throughout the semesters. My colleagues and friends encouraged. There was just really a really great support system that I had, and I'm grateful for that. But I am also personally driven and I make my commitments and I succeed at them. I did well in the courses. I did have one tough semester, I'll tell you, Chris, and I felt like quitting. I had actually gone full time that semester and I never did that again with working full time and going. It was tough.

Jennifer Phillips [00:07:58]: But I felt like quitting. And I but I reached out to my professors, and I did talk to the dean. And they just said, you know, take a semester off, just regroup and come back. And that was right during the pandemic, in fact. And I'm so grateful that I did that and that I listened to them because I took the the ones the next semester off. And then when I came back, it was smoother sailing after that. So I guess for success, the way to maintain is just keep going. Just keep going.

Jennifer Phillips [00:08:25]: Reach out if you're drowning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:26]: Makes me think of Dory from Finding Nemo as she just keeps swimming. And definitely there are times where you have to do that. And I appreciate that you said that you did reach out and you asked those questions. And talk to me about what was the response that you got when you did reach out to your faculty, when you did reach out to the people within your program for that support, what was their response back in regard to providing you with resources or tools or things that could help you to get through that term even though you were hitting that proverbial wall that was more difficult during that specific term?

Jennifer Phillips [00:09:04]: I think mostly it was, as I said, that was at the beginning of the pandemic. It was the spring semester in 2020. And I think there was just an awful lot going on at that time, right? We were washing our groceries and it was just a really scary time. And so the advice that I got from the dean was, who was also my instructor, was just take some time off, just take a break and regroup and come back. I felt like I was doing horribly. I think I'd gotten a c on an exam. I've never gotten a c on an exam before. And he assured me that that was nothing to be concerned about.

Jennifer Phillips [00:09:38]: And I think that I was right in there with the realm of others in the course. But, you know, I did better from there moving forward. It was my first exam in that semester. And so once you see the first one, you kind of know how to prepare for the next one. And so that's what I did was I just changed up my study habits and found different path to prepare in that particular course and took that semester off, got some R and R, came back with a fresh mind in the fall. And and I said, reached out to my colleagues and they said, you got this. You're doing great. And I did great.

Jennifer Phillips [00:10:09]: I graduated with a 3.9. I think I did okay. That didn't hurt me too bad.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:15]: No. It definitely doesn't. And, you know, and I think that that one thing there just that everyone should understand is that you can have a bump in the road and that one bump in the road isn't going to make or break your experience going through graduate school. Now, if you have multiple bumps in the road, that can be more of an issue. And as you're hitting those bumps along the way, what Jennifer said is so important, which is reach out, ask for help. Don't push through thinking that you're doing things in the right way if you truly are lost. Because the more that you can ask for help when you truly need it, that there may be resources, may be assistance, may be other things that a faculty can offer you, that the program can offer you, that the university can offer you, that may be able to set things up to help you along the way as well. You just don't want to go so far down the path that you can't fix the issue as it's going on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:16]: And that's really important.

Jennifer Phillips [00:11:18]: I would agree to that wholeheartedly. And I tell my kids this as well, start the semester strong. And I think that's part of the reason that that early c hit me so hard because that's what I tell them. It's so much easier. You don't know what's coming as the semester goes on. So if you set yourself up strong in the beginning, then if something happens, there's a definite family, which happened to me one semester in my undergrad. You can recover from it more easily if you come out of the gate strong.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:11:44]: Now you've completed, as I mentioned, your MBA a few years back. You were in professional life throughout the entire time, but you're continuing with your professional journey. As you look at the work that you do on a daily basis, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do?

Jennifer Phillips [00:12:00]: That's a great question. And and I'll tell you, Chris, I, there were many, many classes where I gleaned some excellent skills and tips and tricks that benefited me in my workplace. And I shared that with my colleagues, with my director, the things that I learned, those little handy little tricks and tips and things that I didn't know were beneficial to me along the way. I feel like my MBA degree has set me up to go anywhere I choose. And I'm really excited too that I made that step to get that degree because of the possibilities that would be afforded to somebody with a graduate degree versus someone without. You know, my kids would say, what were you gonna do with your degree, mom? And I say, you know, I don't know. I don't really know where all my future is gonna take me, but I've planted the seeds and prepared my fields for rain. That's how I tell them.

Jennifer Phillips [00:12:51]: I say, you know, any investment we make in ourselves, it's nothing but good. And we don't know what lies ahead, but I look forward to, you know, with expectant faith for where my degree may take me. As I said, I have entrepreneurial aspirations and that's one of the things that I did take an entrepreneurial course in my grad program. It was excellent. And I'm looking forward to maybe in my retirement years when I have a little more time picking up, you know, and just doing something a little part time. I don't see myself as ever stopping the workplace. I love working. I love learning, and I love being out in the community.

Jennifer Phillips [00:13:25]: But I think that the things that I learned in my master of business administration courses will really help me the 2nd time through as an entrepreneur.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:34]: As you look back at your graduate education, getting that MBA, and you think about other students that are looking at graduate school now, whether it be in the MBA, whether it be in I know you work with physical therapy students in the physical therapy program at the University of Michigan Flint, no matter who they are, what are some tips that you might offer students, prospective students, people that are considering graduate education that could help them find success sooner?

Jennifer Phillips [00:13:59]: So for me, I had concerns myself. When I was considering I'm not a spring chicken. I'm not the youngest person in the room, and I felt like I was maybe too old to go to school. And and so I was pondering, you know, should I even start this? And I talked to a colleague and I said, gosh. When I'm done, I'm gonna be, you know, a 100 years old. And she says, but you're gonna be a 100 years old anyway. She said, this way, you'll be a 100 and you'll have your man MBA. And I guess I thought about that and I thought, you know, she's right.

Jennifer Phillips [00:14:31]: And when you look back, the years go by so fast. I mean, I look back 10, 20 years has gone by like a couple of months, it feels like some days. And so I know that this time that I invest in myself, whether it's 2 years or 4 years or some of our programs you can whip through in a year, that that it's gonna go by quickly. That time really does go by fast. And we really just need to take a step. Just take that first step. Look at it one class at a time, one semester at a time. And I'll tell you, I've just never heard anyone, Chris, say to me, I've never heard anyone say that they've regretted going back to school and earning that graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:11]: Well, I really appreciate you sharing that and sharing your own journey today, Jennifer. I do appreciate. I know that it is a continuum. And as you said, you love having the opportunity to continuously learn and grow. I mean, graduate school does that, but your professional life does that and you have to push yourself to do that throughout your entire career. Now, I truly appreciate you sharing that and I wish you all the best.

Jennifer Phillips [00:15:34]: Thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:36]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.eduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be a transformative experience, especially for first-generation students of color. In a recent episode of Victors in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis engages with Dr. Miroslava Chavez-Garcia and Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu, coauthors of "

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Embarking on a journey to graduate school comes with its own set of successes and challenges. The path to achieving success in graduate school is seldom a straightforward one. In this enlightening conversation, we sit down with Dr. David Luke, the chief diversity officer at the University of Michigan-Flint, to delve into Dr. Luke's experiences and insights on navigating the world of graduate school. Aspiring and current graduate students can gain invaluable knowledge from Dr. Luke's journey, including his motivations for continuing his education, the pivotal experiences that shaped his graduate school experience, and the essential tips for finding success.

Motivation and Transition:

Dr. Luke's journey began at Grand Valley State University, where his early academic path was rooted in business and accounting. However, it was his experiences in sociology and the impactful support he received from the Office of Multicultural Affairs that sparked a shift in his educational trajectory. He describes his realization that he wanted to be the one facilitating the meaningful experiences he encountered in the classroom as a pivotal moment. This realization prompted him to pursue a career in higher education, leading him to the decision to continue his education beyond his undergraduate years. For aspiring graduate students, this underscores the significance of self-discovery and finding a genuine passion as key factors in shaping one's academic journey.

Preparing for Graduate School:

Dr. Luke candidly shares the challenges he faced as he transitioned from the structured world of undergraduate studies to the more intellectually demanding and self-directed nature of graduate school. His experiences in accounting had not fully prepared him for the rigors of graduate-level coursework, presenting a steep learning curve. To navigate this transition, he emphasizes the importance of self-discipline, time management, and a clear understanding of the commitment required for success in graduate school. Additionally, he advises prospective students to thoroughly research potential advisors and faculty members to ensure a good fit, highlighting the pivotal role that an advisor plays in a student's academic journey.

Nurturing Resilience:

Dr. Luke's journey was also marked by significant life events, including the birth of his first child, which taught him the importance of resilience and adaptability. Despite facing setbacks that delayed his progress, he advises students to embrace life's unpredictability and its impact on their academic journey. Given the marathon-like nature of graduate school, Dr. Luke emphasizes the significance of having a clear understanding of one's purpose and motivation, serving as a constant source of drive throughout the challenging years of study.

The Impact of Graduate Education on Career:

As Dr. Luke progressed through his master's and doctorate programs in sociology, he gained deep insights into race and racism, equipping him with the tools to address systemic issues of inequity. His academic background in sociology profoundly influences his work as the chief diversity officer, allowing him to apply the principles of the sociological imagination to address equity issues within his institution. For aspiring graduate students interested in careers in diversity, equity, and inclusion, Dr. Luke's journey serves as a testament to the profound impact of a rigorous graduate education in shaping one's approach to effecting meaningful change within institutions.

Evaluating the Campus Culture:

Graduate school aspirants often grapple with the challenge of identifying institutions with a strong culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion. Dr. Luke underscores the need to thoroughly assess the structure and resources devoted to diversity, equity, and inclusion within prospective institutions. He emphasizes the importance of evaluating the outcomes of these efforts, as well as the sincerity of the institution's leadership in fostering a truly inclusive environment. Additionally, he advises students to engage with current graduate students to gain insight into their experiences and the level of support and encouragement available within the academic community.

Dr. Luke's candid reflections provide invaluable insights for individuals considering or currently navigating the terrain of graduate education. His experiences underscore the significance of identifying intrinsic motivation, fostering resilience, and aligning one's academic pursuits with a clear purpose. As students embark on their own journeys to graduate school, they can draw upon Dr. Luke's wisdom to navigate the challenges and triumphs inherent in the pursuit of advanced education.

Dr. David Luke's journey serves as a beacon of inspiration for prospective and current graduate students, providing a candid account of the trials, growth, and triumphs experienced on the path to advanced education. By embracing these insights, aspiring graduate students can better position themselves for success, armed with the wisdom and guidance shared by Dr. Luke.

By incorporating Dr. Luke's invaluable advice, you can chart a course that honors their passions, nurtures resilience, and aligns with their long-term aspirations, ultimately laying the groundwork for a successful and impactful journey through graduate school.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down, talk with you, to work with you as you are walking through this journey that you're on, this journey that may lead you to graduate school. You may already be in graduate school. You may see the light at the end of the tunnel because you're in graduate school, and you see the door down the road, and you're getting ready to graduate. No matter where you are, you are on a journey. And for me, the biggest thing that I want for you is for you to find success in this journey that you're on.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:51]: That's why every week, I love being able to sit down, talk to you, bring you different hints, tips, resources, things that you can think about that can help you to add some tools to your own toolbox that will provide you with some perspective and offer you some opportunities to be able to learn and grow. That's also why I love bringing you different guests every week that have gone before you, people that have had different paths that they've walked on, different journeys that they've gone through to lead them to where they are today, but all of them have gone to graduate school in the past. This week, we got another great guest with us today. Doctor David Luke is with us, and and David is the chief diversity officer at the University of Michigan Flint. And he did his undergraduate work at Grand Valley State University, but then went on from there and got both a master's and a doctorate from the University of Kentucky. So we're gonna be talking to him about his journey, and I'm really excited to have him here with us today. David, thanks so much for being here today.

Dr. David Luke [00:01:54]: Thank you, Chris. I'm excited to be here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: Well, I'm really excited to have you here. And I guess first and foremost, I wanna I wanna turn the clock back in time. I'm gonna go back to those days at Grand Valley State University when you were studying business and accounting as well as sociology. And at some point during your time at Grand Valley, after your time at Grand Valley, something was sparked in you. Something was sparked in you that made you decide that you wanted to continue your education. Talk to me about that. And what made you decide that you wanted to continue that education and go further?

Dr. David Luke [00:02:30]: So I went to Grand Valley. I graduated high school, went to Grand Valley. I'm from Grand Rapids, so I was basically going down the street, although Allendale was never really a destination for me. I hadn't actually been to the campus that I would end up being at until the summer before I started. And as a 18 year old college student, I didn't have the clearest vision for what I intended to do. So I knew that one of the outcomes that I should have with college is to get a job. So I went into college with a general business major and was persuaded by some accounting faculty to go into accounting, and then was persuaded by them even though I didn't do that great relatively in the intro to accounting classes, but then was persuaded by them to get a CPA license. All of these are good things for job prospects, So that was appealing to me.

Dr. David Luke [00:03:23]: Part of the requirements for being a CPA include 150 college credits, and it doesn't really matter what the discipline is. And so I had in undergrad in my general education taken some sociology courses. The first one I took was the sociology of the civil rights movement because in the general education, at the time, there was a civil rights, you could pick a theme. You take 3 classes within a theme, and the theme that I chose was the civil rights movement. And so I took that class. I took intro, and I thought, I like this, and I would like to major in this. But even more so, these experiences that I'm having in this classroom are things that I might like to reproduce someday. I would like to be the person facilitating some of this.

Dr. David Luke [00:04:03]: Specifically, sociology gave tools and language and a structure to organize thoughts that I had sort of abstractly in my mind, especially as pertains to race and racism. And so helped me to develop a more sophisticated understanding and and really then think about what are ways we could do to intervene to disrupt systemic racism. And cocurricularly, I received a lot of support through the office of multicultural affairs at Grand Valley. And there was a person there at the time, the late dean Oliver Wilson, who was the dean of multicultural affairs, who was over that office. And I wanted his job, essentially. I thought, oh, I could really find fulfillment out of that. So I graduated. We were heading into the great recession at the time.

Dr. David Luke [00:04:45]: I had my accounting degree. And my plan was I would work 10 or 15 years in accounting, earn some money, and then transition at some point to a career in higher ed, whether it was as a sociology professor or in sort of multicultural affairs, diversity, equity, and inclusion work. I lasted two and a half years in public accounting. I did 3 busy seasons, and that was enough for me to want to study for the GRE. Now along the way, also, I was taking the CPA exams. I had to take and pass 4 parts of this big exam within a calendar year. I did that, But so my my life from January through end of March was consumed by busy season work. And then for the 1st year outside of that time, when I would come home at 5, I would eat, and then I would study for 3 to 4 hours a night for the exam.

Dr. David Luke [00:05:35]: So there was no balance for me for work life balance. And and in retrospect, I think had there been, I would have probably lasted longer in accounting. I could've left public accounting and gone somewhere where the hours are a little bit more reasonable. But I don't regret my choice to apply for graduate school. But even, you know, as I mentioned, you know, going into undergrad, not really knowing what I was doing and and choosing business, I knew disciplinarily that I wanted to study sociology, but the process for applying for graduate schools and understanding how to do that kind of in a thoughtful, deliberate, intelligent way was not something that I was super familiar with, especially given that I was not coming from academia. Right? So I I've been a couple years removed. I had a lot of support from sociology faculty at Grand Valley who helped walk me through the process and write recommendations and all of that. But I still, in retrospect, think some of the students that I work with at U of M Flint that are pursuing grad school are much more well prepared than I was in many ways.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:33]: Now you ended up at the University of Kentucky, and you probably could have gone many different places to be able to study sociology. There's many graduate programs across the country. Talk to me about the thought process that you went through and what ended up leading you to the University of Kentucky for sociology?

Dr. David Luke [00:06:56]: One of the primary reason that I went to Grand Valley for undergrad was financial. I was offered the best scholarship package there. I was able to go there and graduate without incurring debt. I applied to 10 different schools for sociology PhD programs. The strategy was have, like, 3 maybe reach schools that, you know, you might not get in, but if I did, it'd be great. 3 or 4 kind of I'll probably be able to get in in their quality, and then a few that you're sure you'll get in. What ended up happening in that process was and I had applied to Kentucky in part because I I knew someone that moved down there, and I had some familiarity with the university. And part of the choice was, again, financial.

Dr. David Luke [00:07:38]: I was a funded graduate student at at UK. But, also, I I went on a visit there and met with the person who would be my adviser, and I was a bit overwhelmed by him. He has a very intense intellectual curiosity and a breadth of knowledge and, you know, so I I met with him and he's rattling off all of this stuff that, you know, is kind of making my head spin. But I knew that I could learn a lot and grow a lot there and that, I would be well supported. And interestingly enough, the director of graduate studies at the times had had some interesting connections to Michigan. She was a grad student at Michigan State, but had done undergrad at Aquinas College, which is in Grand Rapids, and had a professor there who was one of my professors at Grand Valley when I was in undergrad. So it was a small world thing, But there were a few couple other programs, and I and I actually think in many ways I was an odd fit at Kentucky. They have strengths in Appalachian sociology, rural sociology, and then they were kind of as I was leaving in 2018, the areas of emphasis tended to be more criminology and medical sociology, and none of those really fit with me.

Dr. David Luke [00:08:42]: My interests were in race and racism and also in work and organizations. So I had some experiences from my time in public accounting that sort of informed more of an interest in in work and organizations. And so I did some research and and work around that also and taught that class while I was in grad school too, sociology of work and organizations. But, yeah, it was a practical matter of getting a a funded assistantship. And and I was a research assistant on NSF funded projects for the 1st 3 years that ultimately resulted in a coauthored book. And then I also having met some of the people down there kind of solidified things.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:20]: Now not everybody may understand because you did go from a master's to a doctorate. And as you said, just a second ago, you were applying for a doctorate program. And we've talked about this on the show in the past, but that there are some graduate programs that are out there that are lockstep, where you're applying for a PhD, but along the way, you're getting a master's degree. Talk to me about how that worked for you and the difference between what you were doing in your master's and your doctorate, just to add some clarity for what that experience was like for you?

Dr. David Luke [00:09:57]: Yeah. It's an interesting question because the program that I was in changed in that regard while I was there. So I applied thinking that I was a PhD student. I remember at an orientation saying I was a PhD student and a faculty member correcting me and telling me that I was a master's student. So at that time, you would do 2 years of coursework and your master's thesis was sort of the culmination at the 2 year mark. And at that point, you would do a sort of application to get into the PhD program. What changed probably 5 years into my time there and I was I was on there for a little over 7 year 7 and a half years. The program changed so that people would apply for the PhD program, and if they left early after, like, 2 or 3 years, there there would be a master's paper, something they would write sort of in the middle of their towards the 2 thirds through their coursework.

Dr. David Luke [00:10:55]: And if they completed that, they would get sort of a terminal masters as a parting gift if they decided not to complete the PhD for whatever reason. And and grad school is a marathon. There are a number of reasons that people don't don't finish a PhD when they initially intend to, but I essentially I I did my 2 years, my master's, thesis, defended it. The director of graduate studies at that time was my MA adviser, and she wrote a letter to herself to recommend me for the PhD program so that they would have that record on file because the adviser would recommend to the DGS. And so in my case, it was someone writing a letter to themselves. The coursework was basically 3 for the program as a whole, it was basically 3 years of of structured coursework, then you do your qualifying exams, your proposal, and then your, dissertation. And those 3 years, you're taking classes with masters and PhD students. So the 2 years of masters coursework and then the thesis, a masters is supposed to represent, content matter, mastery.

Dr. David Luke [00:12:00]: Right? You you are as a master's someone with a master's in sociology, you know and understand the field at a very high level. The PhD is supposed to be adding knowledge to the field. So my master's thesis isn't necessarily something that adds knowledge to the field, but my PhD, the dissertation should be something that creates or adds new knowledge within the field of sociology. So that's kind of the bigger difference. And then, you know, people once they finish their coursework, people do their dissertation from all over the place. So you're kind of with this cohort moving through, and then everybody's finding their ways differently. So for me, I was in my PhD program at the dissertation stage, and a position opened up in the Martin Luther King Center at the University of Kentucky. And I knew that if I wanted to get my foot in that type of work, I had to have some experience, and this was my chance.

Dr. David Luke [00:12:53]: And so I was able to get a job. So my last couple years in grad school, I was also working full time and working on my dissertation. And I had a very supportive supervisor who was trusting giving me autonomy and trust that I could carve out time to write during my work day as long as I was doing what I needed to for the job to. So that was really helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:13]: Now earlier, you talked about that you left Grand Valley. You worked for about 2 years in accounting and then made that transition into graduate school. So there's a little bit of time between your undergrad and grad work. And we've talked about this on the show as well, that there is a big difference between the way that you're educated typically in undergrad and in in the expectation in graduate school. And there's so so there is a transition that you have to go through. Can you think back to your time transitioning into graduate school because you were able to find success? You got through both the master's, the doctor degree. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of your graduate school experience?

Dr. David Luke [00:14:03]: Yeah. It's a good question. So I've been working and going to school since I was 14. So I get to graduate school and they're telling me I had a RA ship that was 20 hours a week, but I had a fellowship that would cover 10. So I would work 10 hours a week, and then they told me that I would take 3 classes. So I said, can I take 5? And they said, no. 3 is full time in graduate school. And I was like, okay.

Dr. David Luke [00:14:27]: I could take 4. And then can I work a little bit more? And they're like, no. You don't know what the workload is here. I come in thinking a credit is a credit. Right? I'm I'm not gonna take 9 credit hours and work 10 hours a week. I'm not gonna have anything to do. That was incorrect. Right? You're given a 120 pages to read for each class in a 5 to 7 page paper a week.

Dr. David Luke [00:14:49]: That consumes time. And I know for undergrads, they say it's 2 to 3 hours outside the classroom of work per hour in the classroom, and many students find that it takes them less time than that. I don't know what the amount is for graduate school, but it's much more. And the classes are structured so much differently. You know, I'm in a class with 8 people. We've read something that gave us a headache, and now we're all supposed to try to talk about it and figure it out. And so for me, coming from accounting where it's very much here's the rule, here's the I remember I took a sociological classical sociological theory class my 1st semester, and that was a major struggle. The professor kept saying, well, let's take it to the next level of abstraction.

Dr. David Luke [00:15:30]: And I'm like, why would we do that? Let's apply it to something so that I know what we're actually talking about. Right? So my 1st semester, I got 2 b's and an a, and that I didn't really realize was not very good. Right? You need to get a b to pass in the program. And so 2 b's was, hey. You just made it past those two classes. Now after that, I didn't get any more b's. And I don't really think the grades matter that much, but I think it requires a lot of, you know, self discipline, time management, especially when you get past coursework. I mean, the coursework, the workload is different.

Dr. David Luke [00:16:11]: The style of course seminars are different, more discussion. But you've been doing classroom stuff at that point in your life. You've done 20 plus years of of class stuff. So you we kind of understand most graduate students kind of understand how to do that part. It's afterwards I mean, for me and the structure of the program changed slightly, but understanding what qualifying exams were, that wasn't made clear to me up front. So I had to read a bunch of books to become an expert. And, really, that's where when I was working on my qualifying exams, that's where I felt that I gained enough expertise to consider myself a scholar of race and racism because those the coursework didn't cover it. It was when I worked with my advisor.

Dr. David Luke [00:16:53]: I had an independent study where we read books for my qualifying exams, and I did little summaries of each book, prepared myself. Qualifying exams came in. That sort of became a large chunk of the literature review for my dissertation project, and that was where I saw things building. But that's the part too where it is so much a marathon. I would remember thinking about the scope of what I was trying to do and being completely overwhelmed by it. It, like, paralyzed by it. I go into a meeting with my adviser and to his credit, as he broke down, you gotta work on this, this, this, they became manageable chunks. And I would leave the meeting knowing, okay, I can do this.

Dr. David Luke [00:17:32]: I'll take these steps and go forward and progress in that way. And I think that's something that I've carried forward a lot also. You know, I think the scope of work of diversity, equity, inclusion on campuses like the University of Michigan, Flint and many others can be very daunting. We have a lot of work to do, and there are some manageable chunks and pieces and things that we can do that I can point to and say, we've been able to do these things, and they've made the university better, and we'll keep at it. We still have a lot to do, but we're making a difference. Right? So I think a lot of that translates. The other thing I'll say too is life happens during graduate school. I and my wife planned and intended to have children.

Dr. David Luke [00:18:13]: Our first born was born. I had a full time job. She did too. We had a home. We had a bedroom prepared, a crib, all that stuff. I didn't know what it was like to have a newborn in the house. I'm the youngest in my family, and that put me back 1 year. And so I've said that to students.

Dr. David Luke [00:18:31]: I've had students that have had children in undergrad and said, oh, I'll be back in 6 weeks. And I said, you need to look into medical withdrawal because that is a lot. And I did feel we were very well prepared to do that. And so I had several colleagues that also had children, got married, other major life events happened during graduate school. And so it is some of it is things you can control. There's some things that you can't control. You do the best you can to control what you can, and but it is definitely a marathon. And that that's where I think my biggest thing that helped me is I knew why I wanted this.

Dr. David Luke [00:19:04]: So I wanted a PhD so that I could be a credible expert to teach and to facilitate some of those experiences I had in undergraduate or to be able to be in a leadership position on a on a, university campus where I could influence positive change. In both of those instances, that's what a PhD would do for me. So that that helped me motivate. I had friends and colleagues that didn't have a good reason why they were there, and most of the time for those folks, they wouldn't finish. So I don't indiscriminately recommend people to go to graduate school. I I recommend people to think very clearly about what they need and why they need it and help that motivate them to complete what they're trying to start in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:46]: So you have a degree now in a master's degree in sociology, a doctorate degree in sociology. You are a chief diversity officer. You got to that position that you were aiming for when you knew the person from Grand Valley that was a mentor for you. Talk to me about how that graduate education informs the work that you do on a daily basis.

Dr. David Luke [00:20:11]: I mean, in a lot of ways, formal and informal, I think it informs it. You know, I'm a sociologist, so I have to talk about socialization. Right? So being a graduate student, working directly with faculty, and I was selected by my peers to be president of our graduate student organization. As such, I was attending department faculty meetings and representing the student voice at those meetings. That was very valuable to me as now I'm sometimes in similar meetings, and I have a sense for sort of how those how those function, how those run. You know, the specific content that I studied in graduate school is directly related to the work that I'm doing now. Obviously, I have a substantive focus on race and racism, and diversity, equity, and inclusion is much broader than that, but much of that translates to other systems of oppression and understanding different social identities. And I think my disciplinary background in sociology is an advantage to institutional diversity, equity, and inclusion work because what we are trying to do is address the structural underpinnings of inequity within organizations, and that's what sociology does.

Dr. David Luke [00:21:17]: So sociologists, the big learning outcome in intro to sociology classes is that students will understand the sociological imagination, which is the connection between one's private troubles and public issues. So if we have a student that encounters an issue relating to inequitable treatment or in some way, We don't view that just as an isolated instance. Certainly, you first attend to that student's need, but then you look at how do we prevent that same issue from happening from to another student in the future? What is it about our policies, practices, norms, that are producing this outcome for this student, and how do we make sure that doesn't happen for others? And so that's how I'm constantly thinking. I want to get less and less busy. I would hope that as we address the things that we're doing as an institution that are producing inequitable results, that then we have less and less to do. And it's a different conceptualization than a lot of times when people think about racism, sexism, homophobia, they think about an individual bigot and their actions. And there certainly are consequences if we have people that hold very prejudiced views and position the power, and and they can they can cause harm. But the bigger problem is when those harm causing behaviors, patterns are encouraged institutionally in some way or supported institutionally in some way.

Dr. David Luke [00:22:35]: So to the extent that we can normalize inclusive equitable behaviors and practices, people who behave in ways that run contrary to those norms will face informal sanction. We don't do that here. It doesn't have to be a formal sanction necessary. There's there's tense amount of pressure from informal sanctions based on social norms within an organization. So we're saying that we care about diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that needs to be felt by everyone.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:00]: You know, one of the questions that, I guess, that I would ask is that as individuals are looking at graduate school, they will see different organizations. They'll see different individuals like yourself that are working with people on the campus to create a culture of inclusion and creating an atmosphere that would be welcoming for all. What should students be looking for to identify the culture of a campus when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion as they're looking at graduate schools?

Dr. David Luke [00:23:34]: If you look at the structure of the institution's DEI offices, the resources going towards those efforts, and and it's relative to, right, to the size and the budget of the institution, the outcomes that they're able to talk about from those efforts, what university leadership is saying. I mean, one of the big challenges and especially for folks that are considering working in diversity, equity, inclusion roles, there's a plethora of chief diversity officer jobs. Although there's fewer now given some of the political opposition to it, but many of these roles are constructed to be figureheads that do not have any authority to make change within the organization. So they check a box, they might offer a nice salary, and their hope is that you will just kind of do some trainings and workshops that are maybe not that consequential that we know from research are not the most impactful practices. But we can say we did them, and we can say we have this person, and we can say that we're we're doing something good versus places that are trying to make measurable change in key areas where it's not just the diversity officer and the DEI roles that are held accountable. But throughout the organization, folks are being held accountable and expected to contribute to DEI efforts. These are the things that I would look for. And, also, I mean, graduate students, if you get a chance when you're considering a program to talk to some of the graduate students there, talk to folks there about what they're experiencing.

Dr. David Luke [00:25:00]: Are they feeling a result from the professor efforts? But yeah. I mean, those are those are a few ways I think that that could help get a sense for.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:08]: Now you've given a lot of pieces of advice, things that you've learned along the way. As you're thinking about students that are coming up now and that are thinking about going to graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer them that would help them find success sooner?

Dr. David Luke [00:25:24]: First thing is why. Why are you doing it? Have a have a good reason. So next, I would say, I'll think of things that I could have done better. It would have been advantageous for me to do more research on research within the fields to understand faculty that I might like to work with. Right? This is a thing that a lot of PhD students do, is you would apply to a program and in your application materials, say, I would like to work with this person on this type of research that they're doing. Right? I didn't do that. And I thought about that after my finished my masters. I could have applied somewhere else, perhaps and would have been much stronger application.

Dr. David Luke [00:26:03]: But, I I had a pretty good experience at UK and a and a pretty good situation there, so I decided to stay. And then I think I was fortunate. I have some colleagues from grad school that I'm still very close with. Some programs are very cutthroat and competitive, and others are much more collegial. And that's really important because you're going through something that is usually pretty long, pretty challenging. And when you have other folks that are going through that experience with you that you can count on each other and encourage each other, that makes a world of difference. So those are some of the things that I would recommend. And, you know, when you're looking at faculty advisors and stuff, you know, look people up.

Dr. David Luke [00:26:43]: Google them. See what folks are saying. Talk to other graduate students. But your advisor can have a very strong impact on your success within that program and how you do in the field. So it's it's that's a very important if you get the wrong adviser switching, there's a lot of politics involved in those decisions too. So, yeah, be very judicious and and thorough with deciding where you wanna go and who you wanna work with.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:10]: Well, David, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being a voice that is helping others to make that transition, to identify the next steps for themselves. I truly appreciate you sharing your journey with us today, and I wish you all the best.

Dr. David Luke [00:27:29]: Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:30]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu forward /graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Entering graduate school is a significant step in one's academic and professional journey. It requires careful consideration, motivation, and a clear vision of how it will contribute to personal and career growth. In this week's Victors in Grad School Podcast, Marsha Hare, an international logistics analyst with XPO Logistics, shares her inspiring journey from undertaking undergraduate studies to successfully completing a Master of Science Administration in Information Resource Management at Central Michigan University. Her experiences provide valuable insights for individuals considering or currently pursuing graduate education.

Transitioning from Undergraduate Work to Graduate School

Marsha reflects on her decision to pursue graduate studies after gaining work experience following her undergraduate degree. Rather than following a predetermined path, she made the decision for herself, driven by a desire to broaden her skills and knowledge. This highlights the importance of personal motivation and autonomy when making the transition to graduate school. Her readiness for this new phase of education was influenced by reaching a point in her life where she had more time available for studying, demonstrating that identifying the right timing for graduate studies is a personal consideration that can impact one's success in the program.

Choosing the Right Program and Institution

Marsha's decision-making process in selecting the Information Resource Management program at Central Michigan University sheds light on important factors to consider when choosing a graduate program. Her choice was influenced by both the relevance of the program to her professional experience and the flexibility it offered. Additionally, the absence of an entrance exam requirement at the institution allowed her to focus on meeting other necessary prerequisites, giving her the opportunity to flourish without the pressure of standardized testing. This emphasizes the significance of aligning the program with one's career goals and considering the educational environment that best suits individual learning styles.

Adapting to Graduate Study: Strategies for Success

Marsha's decision to pursue her studies online required discipline, meticulous planning, and effective time management. Her approach to organizing her study schedule by looking ahead at the curriculum, establishing deadlines, and understanding her personal learning process exemplifies the adaptability and self-awareness needed to excel in a graduate program. Her commitment to studying during work breaks and utilizing available resources, such as the workplace gym, showcases the creativity and determination required to balance work and academics. Marsha's experience emphasizes the importance of self-discipline, organization, and utilizing available resources to succeed in the unique challenges of a graduate program.

Impact of Graduate Education on Professional Growth

Marsha's graduate education directly impacted her professional role by enhancing her research skills and data analysis capabilities. Her ability to conduct thorough research and analyze data efficiently elevated her performance in the logistics industry. While not directly leading to a promotion, the knowledge and skills gained from her program equipped her to handle complex industry challenges with confidence. Marsha's experience underscores the potential for a graduate degree to elevate one's expertise and proficiency within their professional domain.

Tips for Success: Navigating Graduate School

Marsha's advice for future graduate students emphasizes the significance of collaborative work and adaptation to diverse perspectives. Encouraging an open-minded approach and respectful interaction within group settings highlights the value of networking and the potential for personal growth through varied viewpoints. Her emphasis on appreciating different perspectives and learning from others resonates with the collaborative nature of graduate education and its long-term impact on professional development.

Navigating Graduate School with Purpose

Marsha Hare's journey through graduate school offers valuable lessons for those considering or currently pursuing advanced education. Her story demonstrates the importance of personal drive, strategic decision-making, adaptability, and the ability to leverage both personal and professional experiences to excel in a graduate program. By reflecting on Marsha's insights, individuals can gain a deeper understanding of the considerations and strategies that contribute to a successful graduate school experience, ultimately paving the way for meaningful personal and professional growth.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. I love being able to sit down and talk with you every week and to be able to walk with you on this journey that you're on. I say journey because it is a journey, and every person goes through a journey as they're thinking about graduate school, as they're going through graduate school, as they're preparing to leave graduate school. And you and I are on this journey together because I know that every person's journey is a little bit unique, and it's important for you to be able to have some tools in your toolbox to help you along this path that can open your eyes to some of the things that you might be able to do, even right now, that can help you to be successful in graduate school. And that's why this podcast exists. It exists to help you to be able to learn from other people, other people that have conned before you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:12]: And that's why every week I love being able to have different guests, guests that have gone to graduate school in the past, have learned, they have grown, have been successful in that journey, and I can share that journey with you as well. Today, we got another great guest with us today. Marsha Hair is with us today. And Marsha is a international logistics analyst with XPO Logistics, and she has been there for quite a few years. And she did her graduate work at Central Michigan University, but before that was at the University of Michigan Flint. And we're gonna talk about the journey that she went on, going from her undergraduate work to working to going to get her graduate degree and learn from that journey along the way. Marsha, thanks so much for being here today.

Marsha Hare [00:02:01]: Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: It is my pleasure. Love being able to have you here. I wanna turn the clock back in time because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan, Flint. You did your bachelor's of business administration at U of M Flint, and you did that in human resources and organizational behavior management. And then you went off and you worked for a while. And sometime in that period of time between when you graduated and in your work life, you made a decision. You made a decision to go back to school. What was going through your head as you were out in the workforce and you were deciding to go and go back to school after being in the workforce for some time?

Marsha Hare [00:02:43]: What was going through my head when I did my undergraduate studies? I kind of did that because that was, like, the next step. That's what I was told in school. This is the next step. The family encouraged me to go to college. So when I decided to go back to graduate school, I was doing it for me, solely for me, something that I wanted to do. I was at a point in my life where I was ready. My oldest was, believe he was grown at the time and my youngest was old enough to kind of have some independence. So I was able to have the time I needed to study.

Marsha Hare [00:03:10]: And then I wanted to broaden my ideals and my skills for the job that I was in, for the work environment that I was in.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:18]: So you've got a Master of Science Administration in Information Resource Management. Talk to me about the decision, not only to study that, but the decision to ultimately attend Central Michigan University. What what was it about that specific field that you decided that you wanted to focus in on that and why Central Michigan?

Marsha Hare [00:03:39]: So I actually was going to the SAP program that Central Michigan offered. But, because that was the a program that we were currently working in at my job, but and it was mostly, like, for Mexico suppliers that I was using that particular application for. But it was a little more costly, so I decided to just go to the information resource management program because it kind of had some similarities and a little bit different, but I was still dealing with a lot of information, a lot of data in my day to day work. So that was one of the reasons I chose that program. The other reason I chose, Central Michigan for that particular program, I'm not good at testing. I'm sure a lot of students probably can can identify with that. Not that I'm terribly bad, but I just it's uncomfortable sometimes for me, And I did not have to take an entrance exam to get into that program, but I did have to take a couple of prerequisites. And there were some other requirements that I had to do, but I met all of those.

Marsha Hare [00:04:39]: And I was so proud of myself that I didn't have to have a exam tell me this is how I felt. Not saying everybody feels that way, but I didn't have to have an exam tell me if I was smart enough to get in that program or not. But I was able to get in that program, and I actually got the best GPA that I ever had. Of course, being more mature at the time helped a lot and having the work experience helped a lot, but still I was just at that time where I was able to focus and I was ready for it. So that is why I went to CMU, and that is why I selected that particular program.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:12]: Now there was a number of years between when you did your undergraduate work and you went into your graduate work. And going through undergraduate studies, you're taught in a specific way. When you go to graduate school, it's a little bit different. And you have to transition, and you have to understand and learn what you have to do to find success. So can you think back to that transition that you went through and what you found that you had to do to and what you found that you had to do to find success in graduate school. What did you have to do specifically to be able to set yourself up for success as you entered into the program? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout the entirety of the program?

Marsha Hare [00:06:00]: So I was a little unique in how I approached grad school. I did not take your traditional sit in class and do the lecture for them. I actually did my whole program online. So it took some discipline, and it took some planning. So what I did, I looked at the curriculum of every class that I have for every semester. I looked at the requirements. I looked at the assignments, when they were gonna be due. What was going to be the components of making that assignment complete? And I've got a planner, a desk planner, and I wrote out all the due dates on my planner.

Marsha Hare [00:06:37]: And then I went back, and and it took probably about a couple semesters for me to kinda figure out how long it takes me to, like, read the assignment before I actually get to doing, do the homework and turn it in. So I had to kinda learn what my learning process was. So once I figured that out, then I would count, like, backwards. From the date it was due, I would go back maybe 5 days and say, okay. I need to start here and plug in 2 hours of my day to study for this specific class. And then because I was working full time, I would also it depends. Sometimes if I had a minute, I take my breaks and study. We actually had a workout room on our worksite.

Marsha Hare [00:07:15]: So I would take my books and put them up on the treadmill and walk and read because sometimes reading makes me drowsy. So I would figure it out. Do what I had to do. And then on my lunch breaks, I would study. When I came home, I get the kids all straight, and then I would take whatever time I needed in the evenings to study or be online. And then the weekends. But it was fast. It was a little more condensed than your traditional in person forum, but I had to be very focused and very organized in order to have a successful online master's program experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:51]: And you were successful. You were able to go on from there and continue on. You've got your degree continued in your career. Talk to me about after getting that master's degree and even today, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Marsha Hare [00:08:09]: Some people get promotions. This is probably funny, but I didn't really get a promotion. I did get more work. I would just go okay. But what it did, it was a lot of research that was required in that program. So it made me do a lot more research when I was looking for or working through certain problems or trying to understand a particular segment of the industry that I was in. So that part was really good for me. It was very helpful.

Marsha Hare [00:08:36]: The data that I encountered did help me with analyzing the data so that I could give feedback on what trends are happening in my particular segment or in the logistics world. So that was helpful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:49]: Thinking back to your graduate education, the graduate degree that you did receive and what you learned in that process. And thinking about students that are coming up now and are looking at graduate school or maybe going through graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer to them that would help them to find success sooner?

Marsha Hare [00:09:12]: In my graduate studies, I had to I was in a lot of groups, lot of group settings. So if you're not a person that works with others or likes to work with others, you're gonna have to change that depending on your program. But for my particular program, I like working with others, but I'm kinda used to doing my own thing. So I did have to make sure that you understand your group, you know, their personalities. You're open to the differences of opinion, the differences of styles, and appreciate that everyone brings something different or a different piece of the problem to the table. And that really helped me grow. That helped me grow in my in my position today and just over my career because my career requires me to be in different groups, and it requires me to interact with different departments. And so I have to have an appreciation for different perspectives.

Marsha Hare [00:10:04]: And I learned I learned a lot from other people and how they look at and how they approach problems. So that was very, very, very helpful, and I think that's a good tip for people that's going to have to interact with the public or interact with other groups. They need to have an open mind and definitely share their own experience as well, but just be respectful of each other.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:25]: Great tips and definitely things to think about. You're going to definitely have opportunities in grad school to work with others, and that helps you build your network as well. So the more that you are able to push yourself out there, put yourself out there, and share, as you said, your experiences, the better off you're gonna be. So, Marsha, thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for, you know, expressing and thinking back to the journey that you went through and sharing some of the tips that you learned along the way. And I truly wish you all the best.

Marsha Hare [00:10:57]: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:59]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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The Importance of Continuous Learning

In this week's Victors in Grad School we welcome Jeff Sharkey, Vice President for Tru Treasury, as he shares his insights into the journey of success through graduate school. A key takeaway from his experience is the importance of continuous learning. His decision to pursue a graduate degree was driven by the desire to avoid making decisions based on outdated information. This highlights the value of ongoing education and the impact it can have on personal and professional development. Sharkey's story serves as a testament to the power of continuous learning in staying relevant and informed in an ever-evolving landscape.

Making Informed Choices

Sharkey's decision to pursue a Master of Business Administration (MBA) was influenced by meaningful advice from mentors and a deep understanding of the opportunities inherent in further education. His willingness to seek guidance from experienced professionals reflects the significance of making informed choices when it comes to graduate education. Rather than following a generic path, Sharkey actively sought advice that aligned with his career aspirations, emphasizing the value of strategic decision-making in the pursuit of higher education.

Leveraging Professional Relationships

The importance of leveraging professional relationships becomes evident in Sharkey's narrative. His positive interactions with mentors and colleagues not only provided valuable advice but also facilitated his transition into the graduate program. Building and nurturing strong professional relationships can open doors to opportunities and valuable insights, demonstrating the significance of networking in the context of graduate education and career advancement.

Adapting to the Graduate School Environment

Adapting to the graduate school environment is a crucial aspect of success, and Sharkey's experience sheds light on the need for flexibility and resilience. Operating within a distributed workforce while pursuing his MBA, Sharkey navigated the challenges of distance learning and remote work, demonstrating the importance of adaptability in managing the demands of academic and professional commitments.

Application of Learning in Professional Settings

Sharkey's MBA journey not only equipped him with valuable theoretical knowledge but also provided practical skills that he could apply directly in his professional role. The emphasis on team collaboration, tools for remote work, and the ability to create value amidst challenging circumstances showcases the relevance of graduate education in preparing individuals for real-world scenarios.

Nurturing a Lifelong Learning Mindset

As he reflects on his own experience, Sharkey shares valuable tips for aspiring graduate students. His emphasis on continuous education, open-mindedness, and proactive networking encourages individuals to adopt a lifelong learning mindset. By embracing a commitment to ongoing growth and professional development, individuals can position themselves for success and leverage the full potential of their graduate education.

Sharkey's journey serves as a testament to the multifaceted benefits of pursuing a graduate degree, emphasizing the integration of academic learning, practical application, and professional networking. His insights underscore the transformative impact of strategic decision-making, adaptability, and continuous learning, offering valuable guidance for those navigating their own paths through graduate school.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to victors in grad school. I'm your host, doctor Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. As always every week, I love being able to sit down with you, talk to you, to help you on this journey that you're on in going to graduate school. Now I say going to graduate school, but you might already be in graduate school. Or you could be thinking about it, and it might be a few years off. Or you could be toward the end of that graduate school experience. No matter where you're at, this podcast was set up to help you in this journey and to help you to find success through that graduate school journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:52]: That's why every week, I love being able to bring you different guests, different people that have gone to graduate school before you, that have different experiences that they can share with you and help you in this journey that you're on. This week, we've got another great guest with us. Jeff Sharkey is with us today, and Jeff is the vice president for Treasury Solutions and Innovation. We're gonna be talking about the steps that he took to get to where he is today. But I am really excited for him to share his experiences with you and help you to learn about what it took for him to find success. Jeff, thanks so much for being here today.

Jeff Sharkey [00:01:30]: My pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:33]: I think one of the things that I would love to do is turn the clock back. I'd love to go back in time just a little bit. I wanna go back to those undergraduate days because I know you did your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint where you got your bachelor's of business administration. And at some point in that experience, you made a choice. You made a choice that you wanted to make that next step. And it could have been during your undergraduate experience, but it also could have been while you were working in that first job as a treasury management officer at Team 1 Credit 1. So talk to me about what made you ultimately decide that you wanted to go into grad school and go into that graduate degree.

Jeff Sharkey [00:02:17]: So my experience has been very unique, obviously, working throughout the entire both undergrad and graduate process. Essentially, what had happened was as I was going through, and then we'll talk again, winding back to undergrad, I met a lot of people, made a lot of connections. And it's almost a given that the people that are in undergrad have already taken the steps to further themselves as well. They could have stopped with an associates, but they're continuing to learn, in some cases lifelong learners. Well then, you also get the breed that I was in, which are also working as well. So you have a group of kind of almost overachievers where, yes, they have a career in many cases, so they're taking those nights, weekends, and online classes. Well, that really builds a bond and camaraderie there. And clearly, once you get to that 4 year mark, it's like, well, you know what? We always wanna make sure that we're improving ourselves.

Jeff Sharkey [00:03:08]: I actually read an interesting thing that being a parallel to whenever you graduate, if you don't continue your education, that is the date of which you will be making the rest of the decisions of your entire life. So if I were to, as an example, graduate undergrad 2018, I would be already making decisions for the rest of my life off of 6 year old information. So that continuous improvement was was really a big thing. And then of course, you have a lot of a lot of people that are doing it. You form bonds that you can play off of as well. Another big thing that happened, honestly, was I owe most of it to the recruitment process. Craig Gomolka, specifically, kind of a rock star. He'd been at the University of Michigan for at least a decade already.

Jeff Sharkey [00:03:48]: And he just did so many things proactively with the team, which, you know, obviously shows credibility institution itself to show the value. And, you know, helping me out with saying, hey, you know what? You're already here. It makes sense for you to continue on with this specific track. He would pull transcripts and say, hey. Your grades are it's to the point where they qualify for some of the MBA classes already. You know, just really making the process smooth. I didn't even ask him to do most of those things. Again, doing it proactively.

Jeff Sharkey [00:04:15]: So it was just really great experience there to the point where he basically said, well, here's your first schedule. And I needed to make sure that I accepted it, and then just roll with it. So I owe a lot to him, but that's kind of the process from, you know, undergrad, which is a funny thing. I graduated with a 2011 year catalog. And that's proof of, you know, when I started this endeavor into when I finished it, because I was essentially part time doing the career and further education as well. So that's what I'd say.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:41]: Now you kind of answered this next question that I would typically ask, but maybe there's more to it, which is you did your undergrad at the University of Michigan Flint. You did your master's at the University of Michigan Flint. And you kinda talked about that in the recruitment process that Craig had talked to you, that worked with you to show you those parallels. And typically, I would say, well, what was it that made you specifically choose to stay at the University of Michigan Flint? Because it sounds like your grades were strong, and you could have gone potentially somewhere else if you had wanted to. Was it just the fact that you had made those connections, or was there more to the decision making that made you say that staying at U of M Flint was the best choice for you?

Jeff Sharkey [00:05:26]: That's a fair question. Since I had been employed in essentially what is and had been my career path already, I started to get a lot of counsel from other mentors as well. A lot of so I'm in finance, so a lot of them in banking, very deep in banking. And ironically, one of the things that that happened was I'd asked one of those mentors that I really trust. Okay. So I'm I'm at that, you know, 4 year mark. What would you suggest to do next? Should I do the professional certification in my field? Or should I do the certification in my field? Or should I do the MBA? Now at that point, interestingly enough, hands down, he said professional certification in your field because that made the most sense. So I did.

Jeff Sharkey [00:05:59]: I went through, took about a year and a half, knocked that out. And then I came back and I held that certification, waved it in front of his face, and said, hey, hey, what, you know, what's next? He's like, absolutely go for the MBA. And here's another reason why as he had talking about somebody who really reached a high level of exceptionalism and professionalism in his career and been able to take basically maximize what he was doing. And he got to the point where he wanted to pass that on. And the way that, you know, some of us, obviously, look to pass that on is actually through being an educator himself. One thing that he ran into significant barrier. One thing that he had not achieved through all of these things that he did achieve was an MBA. And that really sounded to him like that was the pathway for him to become an, you know, the educators, you know, again, because this is later on in his life.

Jeff Sharkey [00:06:46]: He, you know, been very successful and now he wanted to give back. And that was a that was a block form. So he's like, MBA. Go for the MBA. So I have these people, my network that's already in the MBA program. I got Craig helping me out here. It really was a very convenient thing just to continue on where I was. I I knew where to park.

Jeff Sharkey [00:07:04]: I knew the business school. I knew the I knew what classrooms. Some of the professors were even the same. It was really an efficiency play for me as well. You can look at my profiler. I worked at the building that was literally attached. So, you know, I worked at the bank right next door. So it just made so much sense in order to continue there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:31]: So that's success in that graduate school journey. I always know that there is a transition, though, because the way that typically you're being taught as a undergraduate student is not the same as the way that you're being taught as a graduate student. So what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey?

Jeff Sharkey [00:07:55]: What I would say is it was basically continuing on in the habits that I had developed. I will say that I had the benefit since I've been working at it for so long. I knew what I was in for. I knew what to expect. For the most part, I knew the amount of time and energy I'd have to put into things. And then the distance learning, I, you know, call it that or I call it COVID, we didn't really have many other options when we got the ability to meet in person, you know, face to face removed from us. So then that took another amount of discipline. Well, at the same point that that was happening in my education, that was also happening in my career.

Jeff Sharkey [00:08:30]: So it really just blended where flexibility of the class offerings, you know, whether it be the the asynchronous, you know, online, after hours, things of that nature. It really made it so that all I had to do is continue what I was doing, in the behaviors that I had already created. So it was great to have that consistency as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:50]: Now I know you got your MBA at about the same time that you also transitioned into a role at True Treasury, and there was a little bit of synchronicity in that as well. And I guess one of the things that I would question with you is as you look back now and you completed your MBA, and you look back at what you learned throughout that MBA degree, how do you feel that the graduate degree prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Jeff Sharkey [00:09:21]: It's a lot in the team aspects. I will say that most saying that through your teeth because during the process, you know, that having the team members assigned to you, you know, that can be one of the most difficult parts, is learning how to deal with other, call it coworkers, call it other team members. And I will say that I had great teams. I heard stories about other ones that were not. Our professors were even very accommodating in making ways to address team issues. So, you know, if if and when they arose. Again, I was very fortunate. But I would say that that's probably the the clearest preparation and aid, I should say, that took place.

Jeff Sharkey [00:09:59]: Because what had happened was the company that I worked for was formed in 2020 right as the world started to close down. And so we were tasked to essentially create all of this value in and do it, you know, basically over the internet, which is something that has not been the traditional path for finance. And so also having that experience from the MBA of having to do absolutely everything, whether it be collaborations, using collaboration tools. You know, our our workforce is what we we call ourselves, like, basically, the 100% distributed workforce. You know, as far as no corporate leased office space somewhere. Everything is, you know, done remotely. The MBA prepared me for that as well. You know, it not even you know, almost not by design, but it was a very valuable thing for me to have that experience.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:49]: Now, again, you've been out now for a few years. And you have the will say time on your side to be able to look back and to be able to consider that graduate education that you've gone through and what it took for you to be able to get to that end state that you had that diploma in hand. As you look back at this and you think about other students that are coming behind you, whether it be for an MBA or for a degree in a completely different area, what are some tips that you might offer to other students that are considering graduate education that would help them to find success sooner?

Jeff Sharkey [00:11:29]: Yeah. I would say continuous education. Always be hungry. Always want more than what is available. So, the professors are going to give you some a specific set of content, but that doesn't have to be the end of it. We had a lot of different, circumstances where we would work on things together with, you know, classmates that weren't necessarily related to projects, but we had formed those groups. One of them, we were very close to launching a business venture that they had essentially assigned us to do. I mean, how how easy was that as far as, you know, well, next step is essentially to go get it funded.

Jeff Sharkey [00:12:05]: So those are the type of things where I'd say just really be open and be ready to take those type of opportunities. I'm working with another person who essentially ran that same type of situation, and now they're in that business. So just really be flexible, soak it all in, but don't let that be a restriction either. Don't let the syllabus be the restriction. Ended a couple of the networking events that they have. The U of M Flint's very good about having additional networking events. And I remember seeing there's kind of a line waiting to talk to this one specific professor. And so I was just kind of listening in on it.

Jeff Sharkey [00:12:38]: And what he was telling is he's he's like, you need to go to this place. You need to contact this person, and here is their phone number, and they are in charge of helping get grants for that type of information. You know, it was just it was really interesting to have the different resources be presented to you. So that's the other thing I would say is is work the network. Your network will work if you work the network. I know, you know, lead surgeons in Wisconsin, the head nurses in Grand Rapids. It just really interesting, the network that I got connected with. So fire up your LinkedIn profile, make sure that you don't lose contact with these people.

Jeff Sharkey [00:13:09]: There's a person who runs the metal, essentially reclamation company down in South Carolina. Just really great and interesting things to know about and to have, and we keep in contact. So that's another very valuable thing. So I would say, be open, take it all in, work that network.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:24]: I love that you said that because especially if you do have grow from those other people, and then their network becomes your network. So as you network, as you build that professional network within and among the classmates that you have, they can open doors for you that you never would have had being local to a specific area. So listen to what Jeff just said because one of the things that he was talking about was for him, having an online option was the right fit. Not the right fit for everyone, but also look at the student base. And if you're going to be in an in person cohort, is everyone from the same area? Or are they coming from many different areas too? Because you do want a network. You want to build a network. You wanna look at the alumni network. You wanna do what you can to expand your own network so that you then have even more opportunities for yourself as you move forward in your career.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:39]: So, Jeff, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for being willing to talk about this and share this journey that you've been on, and I wish you all the best.

Jeff Sharkey [00:14:51]: My pleasure. Thanks for the opportunity.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:53]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Embarking on the journey of graduate school can be a daunting yet rewarding endeavor. In the podcast episode "Victors in Grad School," Robert Burack, co-founder of Brocade Studio, shares insights from his experience transitioning from undergraduate to graduate education, offering valuable tips and reflections for success in the world of higher education.

The Non-Linear Path of Graduate Education:

Burack’s journey serves as a poignant example of how the path to graduate education isn’t always linear. Contrary to the traditional belief that one’s undergraduate major must dictate the future degree, Burack demonstrates that the diverse landscape of graduate programs allows individuals to explore multidisciplinary paths. His background in political science led him to master's degrees in public management and strategic design, showcasing the flexibility and adaptability inherent in modern graduate education.

Imposter Syndrome and the Decision to Pursue Graduate Education:

Burack's decision to pursue graduate education was influenced by imposter syndrome and the desire for additional credentials to boost confidence in his consulting engagements. This reflects the common sentiment among prospective graduate students who seek validation and expertise to further their careers. His experience serves as a reminder that the pursuit of advanced education should be driven by personal and professional growth rather than conforming to traditional timelines or expectations.

Discipline and Relationship Building in Graduate School:

Burack emphasizes the significance of discipline in managing time effectively during his graduate programs. This shift from the abundance of time in undergraduate studies to a more structured and disciplined approach mirrors the realities many students face in the transition to graduate education. Additionally, he underscores the importance of intentional relationship building, highlighting the value of connections within the academic community that extend beyond the classroom.

Transferable Skills and Soft Skill Development:

Reflecting on his graduate education, Burack underscores the development of transferable skills such as deep listening, writing, and relationship building. These skills have proven instrumental in his consulting work, emphasizing the practical relevance of graduate education. This insight serves as a reminder that graduate education goes beyond academic knowledge, fostering the development of essential soft skills that are indispensable in professional endeavors.

Tips for Prospective Graduate Students:

Burack's advice for prospective graduate students revolves around cultivating opportunities outside the classroom, prioritizing reflection and introspection, and embracing the mindset of lifelong learning. His emphasis on leveraging the resources and mentorship available during graduate education aligns with the personalized and holistic approach necessary for a successful graduate journey.

Robert Burack's journey through graduate school provides invaluable insights for individuals navigating the complex landscape of higher education. His experiences underscore the adaptability, transferable skills, and personal growth that come with pursuing diverse paths in graduate education. As aspiring and current graduate students embark on their own journeys, Burack’s reflections serve as a guide, inspiring a holistic approach to success that transcends traditional academic boundaries.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the victors in grad school, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victors in Grad School. I'm your host, Doctor. Christopher Lewis, Director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Love being able to talk to you every week because I know that the journey that you're on is different than the journey that the person beside you is on. But it is a journey and you are either looking at grad school, considering grad school, you might be in grad school, or you might be looking at that light at the end of the tunnel and saying, I'm almost done. And that's okay too. But every person is going on some journey.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:45]: And as you go through that journey, there are things that you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on. And that's what this show is all about. Every week, I love being able to give you hints, tips, resources, things that you can do to be able to learn, to grow and to take as a part of your toolbox. As you go through that graduate school journey for yourself, No matter where you go, you have to find those, those resources and tips, those things that you can do to be able to be successful. And it does take some different tools from the tools that you had in undergrad to be able to do that. And that's why every week I bring you different guests, different people that have gone before you that are, that have gone to graduate school, gone through graduate school, have learned things along the way and are wanting to give back. They're wanting to share those things with you. And today we've got another great guest with us today.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:38]: Robert Barak is with us today. And Robert is the co founder of Brocade Studio out of Toronto, Ontario. And we'll be talking about the journey that he's been on over the years to go through from his undergraduate to graduate school and beyond. So I'm really excited to have him here today. Robert, thanks so much for joining us today.

Robert Burack [00:01:56]: Thanks. It's great to be with you and glad to be expanding the Flint alumni community here in Canada.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:02]: Well, love to be able to chat with our friends right across the lake. Sure. And also our PAS alums to kind of learn a little bit from them. I know that you did do your undergraduate work at the University of Michigan Flint. And after completing that degree, you had some opportunities and decided along the way to continue your education. Now that that original understanding of going right to grad school or going to grad school after you probably learned something along the way of when you wanted to go to grad school. Talk to me about what made you finally decide that you wanted to take that next step and go to graduate school.

Robert Burack [00:02:40]: Yeah. You're right. I didn't do it right away. There was a little bit of a a simmering and learning period out in the quote unquote real world. I cofounded Brocade, which is a boutique consulting firm in my late twenties, which in some way is at least a mildly ridiculous thing to do because there's so much you don't know and you don't know that you don't know when you're in that stage of life. But one of the co founders was in a later stage of her career And overall, as a team, we were offering more skills than wisdom. So we felt fine about starting up the consultancy. So my decision to go to graduate school when I did was really driven to a large degree by a feeling I think a lot of folks have at some stage in their life and for many people in their twenties, which is some form of imposter syndrome. Right? I felt like some additional credentials would give me really the confidence to sell and lead consulting engagements. And having the credential behind me was a little bit of wind in my sails as I was talking to folks who were running organizations and doing amazing work.

Robert Burack [00:03:44]: It's only later that I really understood that people care a little bit less about your resume than whether you really deeply understand their problems. And certainly graduate school is a place where you get to expand your ability to think. But I didn't want to lose momentum with the business and I really like working. So the graduate programs I chose, there were 2, 1 at Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh and one at Parsons School of Design at The New School in New York were both part time programs geared towards working professionals.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:14]: So I'm kind of interested in the decisions that you made because you got a bachelor's degree at the University of Michigan, Flint in political science, did very well there. And as you said, you went off, you founded your consultancy firm, got into work, got some experience under your belt, and then you decided to go to Carnegie Mellon to get a master of public management, an MPM degree. And then you also decided to get a master of strategic design and management from the Parsons School of Design. So talk to me about the decision making of choosing the degrees that were right for you and what made you choose those programs, but also those schools for those degrees?

Robert Burack [00:04:59]: Yeah. I've listened to a few episodes of the the podcast, and then there's some people describe a great, great thoughtfulness and in their decision making. And I'm here to represent the other side, which is sort of trying your best and make making a sort of a quick informed decision when there's a lot of possibilities on the table. So I talked a moment ago about imposter syndrome and wanting a credential to have some wind in my sails. Carnegie Mellon was a program that was proximate to where I was geared toward working professionals. So the hours worked in terms of me continuing to consult and balance work in graduate school. And I had done a fellowship called the Coro Fellowship, which is sort of multi sector experience geared towards folks in their twenties and thirties. A number of US senators have done it and entrepreneurs.

Robert Burack [00:05:58]: And Carnegie Mellon had a special relationship with the Corot Fellowship where they offered a pretty significant scholarship. So I would love to say I really scanned the market, looked at many schools, many programs, but that wasn't the case. It was something that sort of ticked a couple of boxes and met my needs and allowed me to focus as much as possible on starting and growing the business, which I really wanted to to do. And our firm does a number of things. We're kind of unique in terms of the blend of services we offer, but we have a design perspective, which in some ways means that we just make things that are not only functional and defective, but are beautiful. And in some ways, we try to bring in some ways of working and thinking from the world of design and see how they might be useful in other sectors and realms. So the work at Parsons was me trying to, again, get a bit more credentialed, develop some roots in that way of working and thinking. And it was a program I wasn't quite sure I was going to do, and again, was really fortunate to get a pretty significant scholarship.

Robert Burack [00:07:05]: And again, it was a program that was geared towards working professionals. And there's also something about keeping sharp your ability to learn and the skills of constant learning that were attractive in a more sort of formal program. So I think many people do a lot of research, really scan the market. I didn't do that. And so I'm here to say things can be okay as long as you really follow what's interesting and compelling.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:32]: Now, like you said, you decided to take a few years between your undergrad and your graduate work. You took some time to kind of figure things out for yourself and then made that choice to jump back in to that first master's degree. And you found success in that. You were able to transition in and through, and you finished off that degree. So talk to me about what you had to do because going through your undergrad is different than a graduate degree, and you have to, you learn in different ways. You're taught in different ways. So what did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout your graduate school journey? And how did that differ between the 2 degrees?

Robert Burack [00:08:14]: I had to be really disciplined about my time in both of those graduate school programs, which was different than in undergrad. You know, I had to in undergrad, I had to get papers in on time. I had to do some of the reading at least. But the way it's structured for a lot of folks is to give you some experience of abundance of time because you want to be pouring that into your own self discovery and self development. And you a lot of folks come into a bachelor's degree undergrad experience, not exactly knowing what degree they want. It's a time of discovery. And so the luxury of time is really important. But in graduate school, I, at least in my particular setup, had to be really disciplined about time.

Robert Burack [00:09:03]: And I really quickly came to understand that one of the primary ways I was going to get value from both programs was through relationships with folks in the cohort, with faculty, with other folks who were in the kind of university orbit. And so I had to be really intentional about building, seeking out those relationships, maintaining, cultivating them. And actually, it was just last week and Buenos Aires at the wedding of a friend from graduate school who runs a design studio, and we have been talking about collaborating. So one of the ways in which those relationships bear fruit, and certainly in undergrad, you're building relationships and making friendships hopefully, but I had to approach it with a different level of intention. 1, given, again, the just constraint on time. And 2, given that I had a clearer sense of the kind of value I wanted from the the programs. And so I really sought out folks who, who kind of aligned aligned with that value and who I thought I would have something to offer them and advice.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:08]: So talk to me a little bit about the straight and narrow path that you took to Carnegie Mellon in the sense that your bachelor's of political science in some ways connects with public management. You can see that connection. But then in the new school, the degree is a little bit of a right turn, we'll say. And a lot of times when people start thinking about graduate school, they think of that linear path. They think of, I've got a bachelor's in business administration. I guess I need to get a MBA. And there's that before and after. But that one of the things that your journey shows is that the path doesn't have to be specifically linear in the sense of one degree to another, but that there may be other paths available to them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:50]: Can you talk to that?

Robert Burack [00:10:51]: I know there are professions where you tend to follow a more linear path. You can. I had the great fortune of having a liberal arts degree, which ideally teaches you to think. It develops a lot of really critical soft skills that, even in more technical fields, are in great demand. Our team has been launching an analytics and data vertical, for example, and we're really working hard to find people who have both technical expertise, but also are deep listeners and can reflect back what they're hearing. And that is, they're not in great abundance. So, you know, we need, in that case, folks who marry the technical and the soft skills. I picked political science in part because I was someone who had worked on campaigns.

Robert Burack [00:11:40]: I volunteered on campaigns in high school. I cried when Al Gore lost in 2000. It was just sort of a passion and an interest for me. And I guess I came in thinking that it was very linear, that I'll do something related to political science, and didn't quite understand until a little bit later on in the degree and certainly after the bachelor's that particularly in the liberal arts there, the number of doors open is quite significant. And when we hire now in our strategy and our planning team, we have folks who have all sorts of liberal arts degrees, anthropology, political science, marketing. As a recruiter, someone who does the hiring for our firm, I often don't pay particular attention to what the bachelor degree is. It's important for me to see that credential, but I wanna see their thinking and writing, etcetera. So, I learned that it wasn't necessarily linear.

Robert Burack [00:12:45]: But you're right that the degree at Carnegie Mellon, the master's of public management, does have a pretty direct connection to the political science degree. And, you know, I chose that because I was doing a lot of work at the time with cities and counties and municipalities. I did a stint at a think tank at Harvard that works with cities around the country, specifically thinking about how they can use data to improve public services. And you're right that the degree at Parsons at The New School was a bit of a turn, but I thought about that degree as adding a adding a skill set in a layer that could be really widely, applied. So I don't know. None of it feels linear to me looking back. And, again, I was just always doing the most interesting thing I could find to do or think to do, and that led always led to to more doors that were interesting to Walker.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:13:41]: Now, you've completed these master's degrees. You're continuing with your work with your consultancy firm. How do you feel that your graduate degrees prepared you for the work that you do on a daily basis?

Robert Burack [00:13:54]: A couple of connections. You know, consulting is interesting work. There's the joke that if you're driving somewhere and a consultant is in the passenger seat and you say, should I turn left or right? They say it depends. And I think there's a sort of an idea that where folks would bring up more questions and answers. But a large part of the work is, at least for us, is deep listening. That was something I had the opportunity to practice and to better hone in both of those programs. And writing is really critical. That's something across all degrees that I certainly had to practice quite a bit, a better writer because of all of those papers I had to do across all of those years of undergraduate and graduate programs.

Robert Burack [00:14:42]: And for me, writing is thinking. It's organizing my thoughts. It's really critical because we listen a lot, we take in a lot of information, and a lot of our work is synthesizing and organizing and reflecting back what we're hearing and learning as a way to give or surface new insight. So thinking, writing, really critical, and then just building and strengthening the skills of relationship building. People want to work with people that they like and often people that they know. And I get to work with all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds and got practice in building relationships with people who were both like and unlike me in all of those programs. So I think that mostly what comes up day to day is some of the softer skills that I was able to develop. I knew at the time taking a math course that I was probably not going to use most of that material.

Robert Burack [00:15:43]: But, of course, those other skills are just visible every, single day here.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:49]: Now as you think back to the education that you went through in both of those degrees, and you think of people that are coming up now and are thinking about going to graduate school, or maybe going through graduate school, what are some tips that you might offer those individuals that are considering graduate education that could help them find success sooner?

Robert Burack [00:16:09]: Cultivate opportunities outside of the classroom, again, in terms of relationships and what the institution has to offer. Use the time as a period for reflection and introspection. Really make that a priority, even if you're balancing or juggling family life and or, full time or part time work. You know, who am I? What do I want to do? What do I wanna do in this world, in this life of mine? There's so much inertia in life, and a graduate program can be an opportunity to slow down a little bit and get that critical reflection. And learning theory reflection is actually one of the critical things to really break through the ceiling of what we can learn in other ways. So take advantage of all of those things, you know, and later in life, you might not be surrounded by people also who are actively interested in mentoring, so take advantage of that. Folks who want to invest in you, want to build relationship, want to offer advice, and try to build or reinforce the habits of learning so that you're better positioned after the program to be a lifelong learner, somebody who can adapt and upskill. So, for example, I am trying to do that now and get into the mindset of lifelong learning, and I'm seeking out learning opportunities focused on generative AI prompt writing, which is really both in vogue right now, but it seems like it's going to be one of a set of next generation skills.

Robert Burack [00:17:43]: And it's a little uncomfortable for me. I mean, learning anything new can be some degree of uncomfortable, but I'm going back to the kind of habits of curiosity and knowing that if you push through, you can really get to a place where that skill brings you a lot of joy and adds benefit to your professional life. So those are some things I would suggest.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:05]: Well, Robert, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this, sharing your journey with everyone. It's been a great road so far. Be interested to hear how things go in the future, and I wish you all the best.

Robert Burack [00:18:16]: Thanks. I just turned 33 the other day, and so I both feel old and recognize that I'm also very young. So there's a lot more to go, and I'm really interested to see where it unwinds, and it will continue to not be linear at all. So thank you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:33]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of master's and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint doteduforward/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Dr. Christopher Lewis, the host of Victor's in Grad School, recently had a compelling conversation with Arianna Elkins, a student in the master's in biology program at the University of Michigan Flint. The discussion delved into her journey from undergraduate to graduate studies, the decision to pursue a joint degree program, the importance of balance and time management as a graduate student, and her aspirations for the future. Arianna shared insights and tips that can benefit students considering graduate school and those already on the path to academic and professional success.

Taking Advantage of Joint Degree Programs

Arianna's decision to pursue a joint degree program during her undergraduate studies highlights the benefits of seizing educational opportunities. Through the initiative offered by the University of Michigan Flint, Arianna was able to streamline her educational path and make progress towards her master's degree while completing her bachelor's. The availability of such programs, which allow certain undergraduate courses to count toward a master's degree, can be invaluable for students aiming to accelerate their academic journey while reducing the overall time and financial commitment required for advanced studies.

Finding Passion and Purpose in Academic Pursuits

Arianna's journey from undergraduate research assistant to pursuing a master's thesis in biology exemplifies the transformative power of educational experiences. Her involvement in an aquatic science project not only fueled her passion but also set her on a trajectory towards her desired career in natural resource management. This demonstrates the significance of gaining practical experience and finding alignment between academic pursuits and personal aspirations. Students aspiring for success in graduate school can benefit from actively seeking out research opportunities and aligning academic endeavors with future career goals.

Balancing Responsibilities in Graduate School

A key aspect of Arianna's discussion was the importance of balance and time management as a graduate student. Balancing coursework, research obligations, and professional responsibilities requires deliberate planning and self-discipline. Arianna's approach involved setting priorities, establishing boundaries, and creating a schedule that allowed her to seamlessly integrate her roles as a student, researcher, and professional. Her experience underscores the significance of striking a balance to prevent burnout and ensure holistic well-being while pursuing advanced education.

Navigating the Path Forward

As Arianna approaches the culmination of her master's program, her aspirations encompass a blend of professional engagement and educational progression. Her plans to venture into natural resource management and then potentially return for a PhD, coupled with a desire to mentor future students, reflect a forward-thinking approach to career development. Her trajectory serves as an inspiration for students to envision the broader implications of their graduate education and consider how it aligns with their future career goals and aspirations.

Advice for Prospective Graduate Students

Arianna's insights culminated in practical advice for individuals considering graduate school. Her emphasis on researching job requirements, identifying potential skill gaps, and leveraging networking opportunities illuminates an essential aspect of preparing for postgraduate endeavors. This advice illuminates the significance of informed decision-making and proactive engagement in shaping one's academic and professional trajectory.

In conclusion, Arianna Elkins' journey through the master's in biology program at the University of Michigan Flint showcases the transformative impact of educational opportunities, personal passion, and strategic planning. Her insights and experiences offer valuable guidance for aspiring and current graduate students seeking to navigate the complexities of advanced education with purpose, balance, and a clear vision for the future. As her journey continues, Arianna's story serves as both an inspiration and a practical guide for those navigating the challenges and opportunities of graduate school.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. Every week, I love being able to sit down with you, to talk to you, to work with you as you are looking at graduate school No matter where you are in this journey, and it is a journey. It is a journey that you're on, whether you are still in that undergraduate degree looking at future whether you're in a graduate program and you're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and and working through in that way as well, there are always things that you can do To find success in the journey that you're on. And that's what this podcast is all about. I love being able to sit down with you and work with you on this because there are tips and tricks and things that you can learn from others. And that's why every week I love being able to bring you different people that have gone before you or that are going through it right now and that can give you some of their own insights to help you In the journey that you have chosen to go on as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:17]: This week, we've got another great guest. Ariana Elkins is with us. And Ariana is a student in the master's in biology program at the University of Michigan Flint. She did her undergraduate work also at the University of Michigan Flint, and we're gonna talk about that. She took advantage of a couple of different opportunities As she was going through her undergrad that allowed her to be able to work toward that master's degree. So I'm really excited to have her here and have her Share her journey with you. Ariana, thanks so much for being here today.

Arianna Elkins [00:01:51]: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:53]: It is my pleasure having you here today. I really appreciate you Sharing your own experience because typically what I do, I love going back and having you really talk about this journey that you're on. And I guess for you, you just finished your bachelor's degree. But while you were going through your bachelor's degree, you made a decision. You made a decision to Take advantage of a joint degree program. And for those of you that don't know or are on campuses that don't have these, a joint degree program is a program that allows for you while you're going through that undergraduate program to take courses as an undergraduate That will also count toward a master's degree. So Ariana took advantage of that while she was going through that bachelor's in biology to also work on a master's. Now so let's go back in time a little bit, Ariana, and tell me about what made you just choose that you wanted to take advantage of this Joint degree program and what, really, what made you choose that you wanted to go beyond the bachelor's to get the master's in general?

Arianna Elkins [00:02:55]: Yeah. So There was talk about this program being brought to campus. They were in the process of developing it, so I knew it was coming. And I felt really lucky that my My last semester of undergrad, it became available for us to take advantage of that. So, really, without thinking, I did it. Allows you to save money, save some time, and it is a little bit of an added challenge. You're taking an undergraduate class, but there's a little bit extra work in there to Have it count for a graduate class as well. So I was really happy that I had the opportunity to save money.

Arianna Elkins [00:03:31]: That was probably The biggest reason for doing it. So what got me into wanting to continue my education onto my master's degree, I had the opportunity to work as an undergrad research assistant on another master's student project. And it was involved in biology. That master's student just happened to be my good friend. So having the opportunity to work on campus, get paid on campus, and learn something new, I really didn't think twice about that opportunity either. So I found myself working on an aquatic science project. We were, For the most part, catching fish on the river. And when I first started, I couldn't even touch a fish.

Arianna Elkins [00:04:15]: I was absolutely terrified of them. It wasn't anything that I saw myself doing or enjoying, but very quickly, Not only did I enjoy it, I had I loved it. I had a great passion for it. So I actually had the opportunity. I was very, very lucky to continue Onto that project, kind of take the torch, and now I'm continuing that project as my master's thesis. So I knew that I could probably go somewhere else and get a master's degree, maybe move, have a different experience. But I knew the adviser that I would be working with, and I knew the project. So I really felt that I was just in a really good place at The perfect time, and so I took that opportunity and continued on to master's.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:01]: So you just talked about the fact that you could've decided to just Finish off your bachelor's degree. You're toward the end of your bachelor's degree, so you could have done that and and gotten that different experience. What was it about the program at the University of Michigan Flint that really made you say, no. I wanna do this joint degree. I wanna stay, And I wanna get my master's at the same institution where I got my bachelor's.

Arianna Elkins [00:05:25]: Master's is a lot different as most people probably know. It's not as credit and coursework based. So I knew that continuing on to my master's, In addition to working with my adviser more, I would be getting the added aspect of Scientific methodology and completing a research project as my thesis, which can not only be applied to fishery science, which is My goal where I'm where I'm wanting to go with my career, but can be really applied to any STEM field, anthropology as well. Really, any research project is once you understand the gist of it, you kind of understand how to do research and how to discover things Pertaining to anything in science.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:06:16]: So when you were doing this joint degree program, you Had the opportunity, like you said, to do courses and then do a bit more to be able to have them count for graduate work. And every person has to go through a process of doing a transition. A transition, like you said, the way that courses are taught are different. The expectations are different, and you have to get into a different type of mindset. So as you transitioned into that graduate program into becoming a graduate student. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success? And what did you have to do to maintain that success as you were going through the entire program?

Arianna Elkins [00:07:01]: I would say The university helped a lot with that. In your undergrad, you do a lot of that scientific reading and writing, and I felt like they really helped with my segue into my master's degree. But on a personal level, you definitely have to have time management skills. I know a lot of people live at home, but I don't live at home anymore. So on top of getting a degree and making sure that that's my Prime focus is advancing my education. I also have to have time to work and hobbies and things like that. So time management is a huge thing for me. That comes with self discipline, making sure that you're Getting a good amount of sleep so that you can wake up the next day, get everything you need to done, get everything that you need to get done, and then you kinda have time for your Hobbies and taking care of yourself in the house and stuff like that.

Arianna Elkins [00:07:52]: So time management partnered with a lot of self discipline and organization skills is what kind of helped my segue into my master's degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:01]: So talk to me a little bit about balance because as you said, You've had to work on top of being a graduate student, and you hold a managerial position. You know, you're you're working as a manager. You're doing that outside of work. You're doing research and having to maintain that research. You've got courses, And you've got to be able to keep on top of all of that, to be able to have that success in the courses that you want. So how have you been able to balance all of that and find success in the way that you've been able to balance that.

Arianna Elkins [00:08:35]: Truthfully, I experienced a lot of burnout in my undergrad. I think with just the heavy Course load. There was a lot of things each day that I had to do versus now my workload is Things that I want to do. It's I have this big time line to conduct a thesis, but it's essentially at my own pace. Those are deadlines that I have set for myself with a little bit help from my advisor. So the transition into my master's degree with that Flexibility in my schedule really helped me balance my life, my hobbies, my health, eating healthy, things like that.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:16]: So it sounds like you have to really find the priorities and set those priorities for yourself And then be able to deconstruct that. So if you have to work, you have to work, but then having to figure out, okay, if I'm working if I have to work, I have to Schedule so much time to do this, but I also have to have time to do the other things that you have to do to be able to get through the courses, get through the research, get through all of that. Is that what you're saying?

Arianna Elkins [00:09:41]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think scheduling is a really big part of it. You have a boss that schedules you specific Times to work, but it's also at least for me, it works the best if I then have a set time that I'm working on my thesis or that I'm working on my classwork.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:00]: So you have about a year left in your program right now. And as you are starting to look at the future, what does the future look like for view. And where do you wanna go, and what do you wanna do next?

Arianna Elkins [00:10:10]: After I finish my thesis, which I think is going to be a really big push In the most recent future, I am planning on just getting out there and seeing what kind of jobs I can attain In natural resource management, I mentioned earlier, I'm hoping to be fisheries based, but really anything A natural resource management in the area would make me happy. And then I'm planning. I really like the idea of teaching and mentoring students. So I'm planning on getting some real world applications and education, and then maybe coming back and completing a PhD and And later being a professor so that I can share my education experience as well as the real world experience that I've gained.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:58]: So So as you think about the experience that you've gone through thus far, and I know you're still in graduate school now. And as you're talking to Other undergraduate students at your own institution or as you think about the journey that you've gone on, What are some tips that you might offer to others that are considering graduate school that would help them find success sooner?

Arianna Elkins [00:11:22]: Well, the first thing I would say is hang in there. Undergraduate is very coursework heavy and in my experience can be very draining. But the next thing thing I would recommend is start looking at jobs. Start looking at the requirements that they're asking. If Just having your bachelor's degree is going to give you a job that has the pay that you're looking for, if you even have the requirements that they're asking for, really just determining if your bachelor's is gonna be enough for something that you wanna do. That was A reason that I continued with my master's, I felt like it just opened up more opportunities for me having, a higher education. So I would just say start looking at the requirements that they're asking for on jobs and might give you an idea of if you need to do more networking on campus or if you need to do more volunteer opportunities or just ways that you might be able to fill the gaps in on your resume.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:20]: Great tips. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate you sharing all of this today, Ariana. And I am really looking forward to Hearing what your next steps are and seeing where you go from here. But I truly appreciate your time and appreciate you sharing all of this, and I wish you all the best.

Arianna Elkins [00:12:37]: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was great, and I hope that someone finds some good tips and some help from this.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:44]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking or in person or online learning options. The University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduate programs to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a Victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon as we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.

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Understanding Faculty Impact

In this enlightening conversation with Dr. Jennifer Blackwood, Director of the Physical Therapy program at the University of Michigan-Flint, students were urged to focus on the caliber of faculty when choosing a graduate program. Dr. Blackwood stressed that meaningful growth is nurtured through connections with educators who are committed to continuous learning and who wield tangible impact in their fields. The significance of building relationships and interacting with faculty beyond academic settings cannot be understated.

The Setbacks as Stepping Stones

Setbacks need not be stumbling blocks but rather stepping stones towards personal and professional enhancement. Dr. Blackwood’s own journey, replete with initial rejections and challenges, is a testament to the power of perseverance.

The Making of a Mentor

Dr. Blackwood’s story is a powerful nod to the value of mentorship. She underlined how effective educators not only disseminate knowledge but also provide guidance and support, preparing students for success beyond the classroom.

Flexibility and Holistic Support in Education

With an educational landscape that's increasingly dynamic, the University of Michigan Flint shines with its blend of online and in-person offerings, epitomizing the need for flexible and supportive program structures.

Beyond the Campus Aesthetics

While the beauty of a campus or resources may be alluring, Dr. Blackwood advised that looking to the quality and ethos of educators will be more conducive to one's learning. Educational accomplishments are, after all, more influenced by human interaction than by architectural marvels.

In essence, this episode emphasized the transformative power of education, the integral role of mentorship, and the importance of embracing life’s challenges. These ingredients not only enrich the graduate school experience but also shape future leaders capable of making a meaningful impact.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Welcome back to Victor's in Grad School. I'm your host doctor Christopher Lewis, Director of graduate programs for the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, I am here to Support you along this journey that you're on. And I say journey I say this I say journey because it is a journey. It is a journey that you are on as you're preparing for graduate school. You You may be preparing for graduate school. You may be just thinking about graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:37]: You might be in graduate school, or maybe you're looking at the that light at the end of the tunnel Come in at you as you're getting ready to be done with graduate school as well. But no matter where you're at, there are things that you can do to find in that journey that you're on, and that's what this podcast is all about. This podcast is all about helping you to find success in the journey And helping you to learn from other individuals that have gone before you, that are that are here to help you to be able to Share what they learned along the way and are here to help you to find some things that may help you as well. That's why every week I love bringing you different guests, different people that have gone before you that have gone on this journey. They come from all kinds of different backgrounds, all kinds of different majors, And they have all they all have the one thing in common, which is they went to graduate school before you, and they have figured out how to find success. So I'm really excited to be able to talk with you every week and to be able to bring these different guests to you. And this week, we got another great guest with us, Dr. Jennifer Blackwood is with us. And Dr. Blackwood is the Director of the Physical Therapy program, and a professor at the University of Michigan Flint, and She has been at the University of Michigan Flint for quite a few years.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:56]: She's been here now for for quite a while working within our PT program. And along the way, she has had a number of other experiences and has Been able to bring experiences from a number of different educational backgrounds as well. So she I am really excited to be able to have her here with us today and welcome her to the show. Dr. Blackwood, thank you so much for being here today.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:02:20]: Yeah. Thanks, Chris, for having me. I'm excited to share any part of my journey and to encourage folks along the way.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:26]: Well, I really appreciate you being here, and what I love to do at the beginning is really just to Turn the clock back in time. I know you got your 1st bachelor's back at Bowling Green State University. And along the way, at Bowling Green, you had something went Through your head, you made a decision that you wanted to keep going. You wanted to go from there to continue your education and work toward that Physical therapy degree. What was going through your head, and why did you choose that you wanted to continue into graduate school?

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:02:54]: Yes. Thanks, Chris. My, my Lifetime career goal was always to become a physical therapist, and I should say always after a remarkable event in my life. And it happened to be That my mom got sick, and she needed to see a physical therapist. And with much gratitude to the physical therapist back then who taught me how to be the junior Physical therapist to help her in her exercise program and really to progress her forward. So when I was at Bowling Green, I went in as a pre PT student. And like many individuals in that time, we had 500 to 600 applicants for very few spots, 20 to 30 spots in an average PT program. And the 1st time that I, went through and applied to a physical therapy school, I didn't get in.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:03:38]: And so I reevaluated where I was. And as a student who grew up in a blue collar household, which required me to do a lot of my own Financial support for my education and certainly for progressing me forward. I decided to fast track my way out of school to get a job Before I reentered and reapplied for a to other physical therapy programs, and in particular, The one on our campus, the University of Michigan's physical therapy program. So so when I was at Bowling Green, I had a great undergrad experience, but I realized that The degree that I did receive from their bachelor's of science in biology was not my final destination. And I knew that In order to continue on, I had to continue to drive towards those goals no matter what the outcome was. And my first non acceptance in the PT school absolutely It didn't stop me, but actually allowed me to refocus, reprioritize, graduate early. So before the 4 year mark, which is Kind of unheard of in some ways, but also to go out and get a job, start making money, reapply to other programs including that one, and then Pick my choices as far as where I wanted to go.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:04:50]: So as you said, you applied once. You didn't get into that program. You reevaluated and decided that you were going to continue to move forward after you got some a little bit of experience, And I'm sure at that point, you had some options. You could have gone to many different programs. You could have you may have applied to many different programs. How did you decide that the University of Michigan Flint was the right school for you?

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:05:15]: Yeah. So as you may note, And all of our listeners may note too, Bowling Green is in a state that's south of Michigan. And I grew up in a house That did not bleed maize and blue, and I will tell you that right off the bat. But when I graduated from Bowling Green, I had a choice To either go into a physical therapy program that was at either a certificate or a bachelor's level or to look into graduate school, to look at the time was Most physical therapy programs were at a master's level. And I just had a point of reflection to say, I can go and pursue the same degree and achieve a bachelor's degree or to pursue A master's degree in physical therapy. And so that really opened my eyes to different area different physical therapy programs. And in particular, the one in Michigan really stuck out. I will tell you that as as a person that grew up not in the state, I had I never I had not spent a lot of time in The state of Michigan up until the point when my husband and and their family were from the Flint region, and we had come back up here for just a visit.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:06:16]: But For me, it was really this idea of looking at opportunities to advance my education that would be consistent with where I wanted to go. And so even as a younger individual, I realized that, you know, my the practice of physical therapy was something I wanted to do. But I also realized that If I had a chance to do something else, like teaching or research or something like that, I knew that I'd have to get more than just a bachelor's degree. And so when I was really kind of Considering that next step after the 1st initial rejection in applying to physical therapy schools, I realized I had to step into a direction that would feed me and support me later later on. And so that's where I really started to look at these master's programs. And the program at Michigan, you know, it stuck out in a number of ways. Number 1, it was one of the only ones at the time that we're at a master's level. And the other piece that really stuck out is just the sort of just looking at the the program as a whole and its history And its strength and its history was really something that kinda brought me to this, brought me to coming to this program and certainly applying to it.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:07:18]: But it So, you know, was something that I never anticipated. So I I never had the mason blue, the black m as something that I always wanna pursue in my life. But for me, I know it was Definitely a moment that really supported me in the process to become a physical therapist.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:33]: Now I know that as you were working As a physical therapist, you got out of graduate school, and we'll talk about that journey, about what it was like to go through graduate school. But as we're still talking about kind of going to and In selecting schools, you ended up also getting your PhD, and you ended up while you were working also working on that. You chose to go to Western Michigan University for that program. How did you choose that program?

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:07:59]: Yeah. So I had already started my career as a faculty member on our faculty at the University of Michigan And the PhD from Western Michigan was or is a PhD in interdisciplinary health sciences. And, it allowed me to utilize my my area of research that I wanted to focus on and really emphasize the interdisciplinary. And and these terms that We commonly use today is interprofessional and interprofessional practice and interprofessional education. But when I was going through this program and really investigating it, It allowed me to examine the area of research that I wanted to work on. It was flexible. It allowed me the opportunity to Complete classes sort of in a asynchronous or a hybrid mode. So where some were completed online, and then yet we still met, Every week in person or sorry.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:08:49]: One time a month in person so that we could have that gap closed and that relationship and socialization within a PhD program as a Part of this. The other piece that really came with that is the concept of being able to manage that as an individual that was working. And although I was working as a faculty member and able to Streamline and and sort of utilize my teaching and research both within my job as well as my PhD program. It allowed me to Sort of marry the 2 and then be successful on both fronts. Mind you, all at the same time where my children were young at the time. And so it was definitely a challenge, But it allowed me to put the categories of work into specific areas and then focus on those throughout the process. The fruit of our labor was great. And so within 3 years' time, I finished my PhD.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:09:36]: Of course, that may be something that seems different, But I was so focused to continue on in that journey that I didn't really wanna delay the opportunity to be successful. So I actually finished mine in just about 36 months, which is really fast and can be very difficult. But but I'm just grateful for it because I didn't wanna continue on. At that time, I wanted to take that next step. And the next step was really To sort of, decompress for a period of time, but also to start applying what I had just garnered through that education and my research to step into that next Direction and to really start making an impact on my own as a researcher.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:18]: Now going back to that experience as you were going through that master's degree in physical therapy. I know that you were successful in in going through that program. And I guess as you think back to that experience for yourself as you go from being an undergraduate and going into graduate work, especially a graduate program that is rigorous and full Time in with a lot of expectations. As you think back to that, what did you have to do as you were transitioning in To set yourself up for success, and what did you have to do to maintain that success as you went through the entire program?

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:10:54]: Yeah. That's a great question. To start off, one of the first things that drew me solidly to this program at the University of Michigan Flint was the faculty. Because It was really the only program that I heard from at the time that spoke about supporting students in a holistic Fashion. And this is before using terms like holistic admissions and stuff was what we had used. But the faculty spoke about Selecting the students and selecting the reasons why that they would choose the specific students that got into the program. And it wasn't just Highest grade leader of this and varsity athlete and things like that, but rather, they really focus on other characteristics. And later on, as I I became a faculty member.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:11:36]: I never really found out what those characteristics were because it was a different age. However, transitioning into the program, being an out of state Student, I very much knew what the cost was. I knew that my coworkers or colleagues in PT school that were in state students, they were paying one rate, and I was paying twice. So, financial, implications of my performance really drove me to learn as much as I possibly could. But The other piece of that that was so powerful was that initial experience I had with my own parents, my mom needing physical therapy. Later on, my grandma needing physical therapy. And we had a faculty member at the time, doctor Dick Darnell, former director of the program. He used to use this thing called the grandma rule.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:12:21]: And he would tell us he would say, treat your patient like you would your grandma. You always want somebody that's gonna take care of your family member, you know, insert whoever that might be. And so when I studied, I studied for my future patient. I studied for those individuals that don't have anything else, Any other hope left in them when they receive challenging diagnoses. I studied for the ability to repeat things back with Confidence knowing that I am absolutely chosen to be in this profession, but also I am chosen to help other individuals. And being a physical therapist, you meet people at a very vulnerable time in their lives, and it can be really you know, it's it's it's a privilege that not many get the chance To have. And in particular for us, like, when we put our hands on a person to try and help them with their mobility, with getting up on a chair, you know, that's That's another thing that's very challenging for for us. And so my transition into graduate school and how I focus was Based on the fact that I always used to have this joke with my classmates, like they may be buying a brand new I don't wanna name one of the top 3 carmakers, but we'll just say one of those.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:13:29]: And my cost was, like, I was buying a foreign car because it was much more than what they had had. So I did spend a lot of time almost Really trying to garner that information so that I could replicate it. Now the outcome of that was, I suppose, with better grades and you would get More confidence and things like that. But what I also realized is that those individuals around me, my classmates that supported me, was invaluable. The faculty was invaluable. And to be able to have a conversation with them and go in their office and, you know, these individuals that were Highly regarded in the profession of physical therapy in different areas. But to develop a relationship with them and be able To ask them just random questions about anything in the profession or some of the issues that we were currently experiencing in health care. And To have that as your colleague and mentor was really powerful for me as a student.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:14:24]: And then the last piece that I remember sticking out very greatly to me was when our director at the time, doctor Paulette Czubalski, you know, she got in front of our class And she just announced and said, listen. You guys are all here because we want you to be here. The weed out process is done. It's time for you to become future physical therapists. And I think that that was just a powerful moment. And so, you know, I was the type of student that was driven to learn, but So, really, the value of me being accepted at the University of Michigan's physical therapy program was not disregarded. Like, I highly valued being here. I highly valued being a student, and I just enjoyed it immensely.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:15:05]: It was like getting the opportunity to finally be able to study what you wanted to study your whole life, and that was what I did. So Just grateful to be a part of the team.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:15]: Now one of the things you just talked about was that importance of building strong relationships with Your faculty members and many students that walk into a graduate program are walking in with very wide eyes, But also a little intimidation and especially intimidation when they meet those faculty members with all the credentials and the work experience And such, and many times students don't exactly know how do I put my best foot forward to build those strong relationships. As as a professor now in the program, what do you say to those students about some of the best ways in which They can start to build those relationships from day 1.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:16:00]: I think as a group, we've taken it upon ourselves, a group of faculty, Educators in physical therapy, we've actually tried to reverse that a little bit. In in the manner in which we do that is sort of that 1st day introduction. It's not, You know, the students, anybody can do a Google search of an individual and find out all the accolades that they have and, you know, how how many awards and things that they've gotten. But When we introduce ourselves, we introduce ourselves just very briefly. And one of the greatest things about my job as a director is to promote The faculty so many times because they receive all these awards and these these, publications and presentations, but oftentimes, they don't talk about them quite as much. I get the chance to do that. But when it comes to a student going through that process, our faculty introduce ourselves, but then, Student going through that process, our faculty introduce ourselves. But then, typically, we ask for some small bit of information, information about them That is not related to academics.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:16:50]: So it's not I call myself, you know, whatever it is. It's something that might be related to performance in academics. So it's not like, you know, I have difficulty reading long texts or something like that. That's not the point that we want from our students. But rather what we need is need information about them. That way we can start to build that relationship. And so, for example, I just recently did this, send out some note cards to students. They an item, and now I have a little nugget of information that we build off of.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:17:16]: And we continue to have that opportunity to, you know, share that piece of our lives together. The other thing that we've actually done too is we've built in small pieces of socialization and service at the same time. Our pro bono clinic is one of them, HEART, where you get the chance to work alongside faculty, but oftentimes, we'll be serving in the community, whether it's at the food bank, whether it's, at a another service activity that's held within the Flint or Genesee County region. So then when it comes down to faculty or students Getting to learn their faculty. I think what it boils down to, like, my greatest encouragement, and I would say this to any undergrad student, high schooler that's gonna go into College or even a student that's gonna go into grad school is to get the chance to know their faculty members. And so if they have office hours, come to office hours. If they have a Social event, a coffee event, something like that, then come in and come in with sort of the humanistic approach. It doesn't necessarily have to be this every time a student goes to see a faculty member to ask a question about the information, but rather to say, you know, I'm also did you get a chance to watch a game on Friday? Oh, yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:18:24]: I did. And then you start sharing that. Well, that relationship builds into more. And then the other piece that I think is really powerful is when students get a chance to participate in their professional socialization. So if it is something that's related to their degree And there happens to be like a, a research presentation or something like that where they get the chance to listen and participate in those activities. If they get the chance to go to a conference, whether it's supported or not from internal resources, by all means, go to those things. Talk with the faculty and then really kind of get that mentorship that, it's not always formative. Usually, it's, something that usually, it's something that happens just implicitly, and it's not something where you have to as a student, you have to sit and receive everything the faculty member is trying to provide for them, but rather to give them the chance to build that relationship.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:19:15]: It's All about spending time and then sharing life experiences with them.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:19:20]: I really appreciate you sharing that because I think that is important and Not always something that undergraduate students do in the best way or they don't always develop those relationships. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And so I think it's important to understand that that is a part that is something that can definitely help them. Now you also mentioned just this a few minutes ago, The the pro bono clinic that you have here, and I know that for programs like yours, many students are going to be taking advantage of many types of clinical opportunities. And as they're looking at programs and considering programs that have a heavy component to that practical learning That they're trying to find information to see what specifically separates programs from one another. As you talk to prospective students For your program, how do you help them to or and what do you what would you say that they should be doing, asking As they're looking at clinical opportunities, especially for programs that have those opportunities available, That would help them to differentiate programs from one another.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:20:24]: Yeah. I think one of the greatest things that a person can do if they're comparing different Graduate programs, in this case, physical therapy programs and their clinical education, is to just ask A question about the number and the variability between sites. Because oftentimes, I get questions from students. Do we have a special Affiliation. Do we have a clinical affiliation in a specific area? And sometimes it happens to be sports. Sports are is a an area of practice that some students are interested in. And we do have those, but we don't have 60 or a 180 depending on how many students are out in the clinic at any one given time. That's because it's just a special area of practice.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:21:05]: So I think if a student is looking at different physical therapy schools, I think you need to ask just about the number of sites available and what that selection process is like. Because although you may have a program that may have, let's say, 30 different sites in sports, it may not be every year, maybe every other year, or you may have They have special credentials to be able to even participate in that. So regardless of what is what regardless of the type of Clinical education experiences a student goes through. They have a career of practice ahead of them. And sometimes, participating in various components of their clinical education. They may find that there is an area of Practice that they thought they always wanted to go into that now they no longer wanna go into. So my communication is always about a growth mindset. Like, Don't necessarily think the only way that you were gonna be this excellent physical therapist is by doing this type of, Educational experience and this one, then this one, then this one.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:22:02]: And then you're gonna have the job that you've always wanted because I guarantee it's gonna change, number 1, and that's okay. But the other thing is is in order for us to be really good at 1 area and have passion about 1 area of practice, we have to be exposed to these other areas. So I think the idea of asking the faculty or the administrators of a Physical therapy program or any health related program about those types of experiences that are available in the selection process. If that meets your needs, I think that's sufficient. The question I would ask if I was say this is one of my children that wanted to become a physical therapist or whatnot would be, How many of those clinical instructors at those facilities have credentialing from, example, the American Physical Therapy Association as Clinical instructors, which means that these physical therapists, supervisors, or preceptors go out and they receive specialized Training to take students and to educate students in that clinical environment. I think that's very powerful. Because you could go out into 2 places. Let's just use the example example of geriatrics, which is the area that I I generally practice in or my specialization.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:23:11]: You could have 2 geriatric facilities and all things equal, The clinical instructor that has the American Physical Therapy Associated credentialing as a clinical instructor may be a better clinical instructor and preceptor and mentor than the other individual that doesn't hold those. And I just think it's it really provides us with an opportunity to say These individuals have gone out and received extra training to be clinical educators, and I think that that's very powerful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:40]: Now as a faculty member, as a Professor is someone that has gone through graduate school and is now utilizing what you've learned on a daily basis To educate others. You've given different pieces of advice today, but as you're thinking about individuals, whether they're going to graduate school for physical therapy, Business or whatever it might, but they're looking at going on to get that graduate degree to continue on toward the goals that they've set for themselves. What are some tips that you might wanna offer every student as they're considering graduate education that could help them find success sooner?

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:24:15]: You know, I think The quality of the faculty that guide you is gonna be key. And the relationships that they have, not only with their profession, but also maybe within the university or within the community. Because I don't think anybody goes into graduate education to remain at the same point when they've graduated. I don't think anybody Goes on to get a master's degree or a doctoral degree or even a PhD will will want to be in that same sort of space in life that they were in when they started this. So that mentorship is gonna be vital. The quality of the faculty is gonna be vital. And then the 2nd piece of that are those other experiences that come along with this. So oftentimes, we talk about the explicit and the implicit curricula of a program.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:24:59]: So our explicit curricula are these are the classes you have to take. These are the books you have to buy. This is the process that you have to go through. But sort of that Implicit information. The information about how the faculty of that various program is gonna Push you to be able to be the best version of yourself at the end is really what a person needs. I also think that As a program director, I think the equipment space and our resources that we have in our program is excellent. And I'm very proud of the information And the spaces that we have. However, I say that sometimes and I was I was prone to this as a younger person when I when I selected some schools.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:25:40]: The sort of brick and mortar that you have within, within higher education, you know, the beautiful grounds and the things of that nature, Those are all good, but you don't learn from buildings. You learn from your faculty. And I really think that Speaking human being to human being and other parents, other students that are thinking of going in and encouraging another person or encouraging themselves to take that step and to go into graduate schooler to go into higher education, the quality of those educators is going to be key. And I just think we have to keep our eyeballs on that. If you're looking at a field that's high in research or really focused in that area or should be, those faculty should also be sort of leaders in that field as well. If it's clinical practice or health care, the same thing. If you're looking at, you know, any programs whether in the health professions, Like, how many of those faculty are still practicing within that profession? How many of those people are serving in the community? And I think that really gives us an opportunity to recognize the priorities within those individuals and how we as future professionals in that area can benefit from them. And then the last Piece that I would just tell students is or applicants is don't worry about don't fret too much about the circumstances today.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:26:57]: Because Like myself, I had to get a couple no's before I finally got the right yes. I had to go and experience some things that were quite challenging in my life, Personal life and then my professional life. To be able to be at the point where I'm at now, all things considered, you know, none of those things that they were Taken away would have made me in the person that I am today. So all of that was very, very purposeful. And even though It was challenging at times, and, you know, if everything went my way, I would have gotten a degree from a different institution a long time ago. But I guarantee that if that was the case, I wouldn't be in this position today. So I can say that as a person that's been in the field for x amount of time, I know sometimes it's not always comforting, but I think it's one of those things where it will all work out. And we're here to support when students are in our program, and we wanna see the best version of our students at their outcome and certainly support them in that process.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:27:51]: But it's one of the things that looking down the tunnel when you don't see that light sometimes can be a little bit overwhelming for folks that are not in my current position.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:59]: Now one follow-up that I'd love to get your take on. You talk about that sometimes students are making decisions based on how pretty the campus is and the Facilities and not always the teaching and the people that are there. I guess 1 question that I would ask is, are there questions? Are there things that someone can ask that would help them to ferret out the quality of instruction, the quality of instructors That may not be apparent from what they see only on a page.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:28:32]: Yeah. I think this goes back to that idea of Sort of cultural humility as a faculty member, and you can hear it when individuals talk. So the idea of, like, a student might ask, what are you working on now to improve the program or to improve your your teaching instruction, your research, things of that nature? And I think that piece of being a continuous learner is something that does not stop when you become a professor or associate professor or any type of faculty member. And I think knowing that we're all still on that journey, we're all still trying to figure this out. I think that's a piece that a student could ask. And so, like, as you go to these programs And you interview the faculty, and really, you should. You should interview and say, do I do I fit in this situation? Like, that's sort of that mental question. But The questions to ask a faculty member would say, you know, what areas of research are you still working on? What what's something that you haven't solved that you wanna look at in the future if If you're looking into research focused, programs, if you're looking at just sort of the education that they provide, you know, what's one comment that a student had provided in the paths that you're really trying to change about the way that you teach or about the way that you're instructing.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:29:43]: And I think that's just a really great opportunity for us to say whether or not these individuals are reflecting and changing and modifying and updating, and whether or not they're willing to tell us that. I think that's the other piece because Faculty do this all the time. They change their classes. They change what's going on within the class. They they modify what they're teaching, and they're always constantly in revision. But to be able to demonstrate that indicates that the student could participate in that process. The last piece that I would also say is, you know, there's great things that every institution is doing, and that's just wonderful because they're educating folks to go out and change the world. And I think as a Student that's really on the border to say, do I belong here or do I belong there? To ask the question to the faculty member or the program director to say, How am I gonna make an impact in this profession, this community, whatever it is, when I'm done? And it can't just be the answer of, well, you're gonna pass The licensure exam first time.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:30:43]: You're gonna it's sort of the the lowest threshold, if you will, to enter a profession. But more importantly, like, to really recognize What's my impact today on this community as I develop into a professional, as I go through my graduate program, and what's gonna be the impact later on? Because believe it or not, born and raised in Ohio, I am a part of the Michigan family. I bleed maize and blue finally after all these years, but I not really. I've Been bleeding majors in blue for a while. But, you know, if you think about being the leaders and best, what we do makes a difference today, But also very much significantly in the future. And so that's always been my my focus. And if we're not doing it today, we've got a goal that we're working towards. And I would just say when students are also considering graduate programs, you've gotta be able to identify where you're gonna move in the future, your what your final career goal will be, And then how you can start walking towards that today, not just when you get the diploma, but how your faculty can guide you in that process.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:46]: Well, Dr. Blackwood, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for sharing your journey today, for sharing all of these pieces of advice. I know that I have really appreciated learning more about your own journey, but also about The things that you are doing to try to differentiate not only your program, but helping students as they transition into graduate school. And I truly wish you all the best.

Dr. Jennifer Blackwood [00:32:10]: Yeah. Thanks, Chris, and go blue.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:32:12]: The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs. For more information on any of our graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms To find out more. Thanks again for spending time with me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey, if you have any questions or want to reach out, email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu

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Embarking on the Journey

Graduate school acts as a beacon for those seeking to elevate their academic prowess and career trajectory. In our latest 'Dads with Daughters' episode, Victor's in Grad School, Dr. Christopher Lewis sheds light on what it takes to navigate this crucial phase with the poise of a seasoned scholar. From the higher salaries and advancement opportunities that often follow an advanced degree to the intrinsic reward of mastering your chosen field, the pursuit of graduate education is filled with both promise and challenge.

Charting the Course

Success in grad school goes beyond intellectual capacity; it is about nurturing the characteristics that define graduate-level scholars. Preparedness for academic rigors, a comprehensive understanding of the graduate vs. undergraduate landscape, and adopting a collaborative mindset are pivotal. Graduate education is a different ballgame—larger in scope and depth—demanding a more proactive and engaging effort from its participants.

Managing Time, Maximizing Potential

Time management is at the heart of a graduate student's success. Critical tools such as Google Task and Google Calendar can serve as lifelines in a sea of deadlines and commitments. But thriving in grad school isn't just about keeping a calendar; it's about resilience and adaptability. With the right environment and the right tools, challenges become mere stepping-stones on your path to academic and professional excellence.

Fostering Academic Relationships

The relationship with faculty can break or make a graduate experience. Securing a faculty mentor and approaching initial meetings with well-thought-out questions and clear goals can forge connections that not only enhance learning but also open doors to career opportunities. This mentorship extends beyond the classroom, offering insights and support in navigating the often complex terrain of graduate research and career planning.

Career and Personal Development

Leveraging campus resources like career services is crucial. Small actions, such as checking campus email regularly, joining student organizations, and attending networking events, compound over time, laying the foundation for a robust professional network and a well-rounded personal development arsenal.

Financial Strategy

Dr. Lewis doesn't skirt around the financial implications of grad school. He stresses the importance of being proactive in seeking out financial support through FAFSA, scholarships, and graduate assistantships. Sound financial planning includes budgeting wisely, establishing good credit, exploring loan options, and considering part-time employment to manage the fiscal responsibility of graduate education.

Tapping into University Resources

Our episode highlights resources at institutions like the University of Michigan Flint, where aspirants can find a trove of information from the graduate programs page to in-depth podcasts, inquiry forms, and personalized assistance from the Graduate Office. These resources are instrumental in helping prospective students chart their graduate school journey.

Conclusion

The road to graduate school success is paved with preparation, adaptability, and a robust support network. As Dr. Lewis emphasizes, the journey is not only about achieving academic accolades but also about personal growth and finding joy in the pursuit of knowledge. Engaging with the content of the 'Victor's in Grad School' episode offers a blueprint for incoming graduate students to approach their studies with strategy, resourcefulness, and resilience.

TRANSCRIPT

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:01]: Welcome to the Victor's in Grad School, where we have conversations with students, alumni, and experts about what it takes to find success in graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:00:11]: Good morning. Thank you so much for being here today. My My name is doctor Christopher Lewis. I am the director of graduate programs at the University of Michigan Flint. Really excited to have you here today, and and I really appreciate you being, interested in this topic and interested in being a part of this graduate school journey. Today, we're gonna be talking about graduate school success and what you can do to be able to find success in that journey that you're on. It is definitely a journey and something that every person has to go through that is going to be a little bit unique to each and every one of you. But today, I'm hoping to be able to share some things, some things that you can think about, some things that you can start to prepare for So that when you do make that transition into graduate school, it's not so foreign, but also that you can start things on the right foot and start moving in the right direction right from the moment that you start.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:01:10]: Feel free today to use the chat to be able to Ask any questions that you might have, and and we'll have some time at the end as well. I did ask that everybody Please go to the participant tab, click on the 3 dots next to your name, and update Your name to have your full name there so that we can send out the code to you afterwards for the free application. I would really appreciate if you can take the time to do that. And if you can't do that, just go ahead and add in the chat your name and we can and I can add it then. Okay. So why don't we get started? And I see people In the chat already using it, that's great. I'm so glad that you're using that. Feel free to definitely introduce yourself, ask your questions, And put things in there, and then we'll answer other questions at the end.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:02:12]: K. So let's Start jump in and start talking about graduate school success. Here's some of the things that we're gonna be talking about today. Excited to be able to chat with you and to be able to talk to you About all of these different things. But first and foremost, we're gonna be talking about graduate education, why you should be thinking about it, why and if you're here, most likely you are thinking about it, But why it's important to think about it, especially in today's society and in today for for your career trajectory. We're gonna talk about some characteristics, some things that we have seen not only here at the University of Michigan Flint, but in general about what it takes to be a successful grad student. Talk about those relationships that you want to build with faculty members. Talk about career development, employability, those Hard skills, soft skills, things that you're going to be learning in the class and outside of the class that will help you to be able to, to be able to Be prepared for the workforce.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:03:08]: Be prepared to going and taking that graduate education into employment. Talk about getting involved in ways in which you can get involved as you move further down your graduate school path, and then finally talking about some financial considerations and support that are available as you're going through graduate school. So first and foremost, let's talk about graduate education. In grad school, why should you do it? Why should you even consider grad school? Well, first and foremost, when you look at research and you look at the That individuals that have gone and gotten a graduate degree, advantage of earning a graduate degree is that it will lead to a higher salary As well as advancement opportunities for you in your career. In the more education that you get as you look at studies that are out, Out there on this, the more education that someone gets, the more opportunities that they have to advance in their career, the more opportunities that they have to To gain up to 20 to 30 times the amount over the lifespan of that career within that career. So it is important to be able to consider and look at the opportunities that lie in front of you that will allow for you to be able to get that further education that will move you further in your own career journey. It also gives you A more competitive advantage when you're applying for jobs, when you're applying for advancement opportunities within your work because you've set yourself, you set yourself apart from other individuals. Also, depending on the opportunities that you've taken within your graduate work, You have the opportunity to be able to do research or to be able to delve deeper into specific topics, specific areas, things that you are passionate about, Things that you're interested in that will help you to define that career trajectory for yourself as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:05:07]: As you're in graduate school, you have an opportunity to build a network of individuals around you from the students that you're going to be studying with, to the faculty you're going to be studying with, And even looking beyond that, there are definitely, opportunities within graduate school where you can go and do Clinical experiences or internships, externships. There's lots of different words for them, but there are a lot of opportunities for you to be able to get those Practical skills where you can build that network for yourself that can open doors, whether it's at the company that you may be in or working with or tangentially to other organizations or other people that those people know. So it does become important that you that you do take the time to be able to meet people within your program, to get to know the people within your program because you never know who those people will be able to introduce you to, to help you, to be able to get that foot in the door, to be able so that you can then potentially open up career opportunities for yourself. There are lots of opportunities for growth Within a graduate degree, not only on the your academic learning, but within the skills that you need to be Successful as a leader, the skills that you need to be successful as a communicator. There's lots of other soft skills per se That you're going to be learning along the way, and I encourage you to explore all of those because employers are looking for those as well. Getting a graduate degree can help you to change careers. So some of you may be thinking and saying, you know what? I've been working in this area for a little bit, And getting a graduate degree will help me to move in the the direction that I really wanna move to be able to Have the career that I want to have eventually. And if that's the case, that's great.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:07:10]: And just know that As you're going through, again, take advantage of building that network, making strong relationships that we're gonna be talking about with your faculty members. All of those things are going to help you to be able to transition into a new career area in that regard. It also opens up the ability for you to be seen in a different light. It adds credibility to you as an individual Because you're bringing additional education, bringing additional expertise into that work setting, into The ethos of the world, and you have the opportunity then to be able to expand upon that and go from there. Advanced education also opens up opportunities for you in many different ways. We talked about career opportunities, but it could open up other opportunities. You never know where that might lie. You may do some research with a faculty member that might turn into a, an opportunity to write a paper that goes into a journal or into Some other scholarly publication that will open up other doors for you.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:08:20]: And then beyond that, as I talked about networking, Alumni networks are so important. There are people that have gone before you and you need to look at that as well. The University of Michigan has one of the largest alumni networks in the world. And as you look at different institutions, you need to look at that. You need to look at, You know, what kind of abilities are there for me to reach out to that alumni network to be able to help me to get to where I want to go? So when you think about your when you think about stepping into a graduate program, there are definitely some characteristics characteristics that we have seen of successful graduate students. And One of the things that I would put out here first is that individuals that are, stepping into this type of a role, stepping into this type of a, of a program need to prepare themselves. They've gotta prepare themselves for the academic rigor And the difference between undergrad and grad. Some of you may be coming in with additional graduate work.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:09:25]: That's great. And if that's if you've already gone through that process, Kudos to you. You and you probably have an idea of what is in store for you. If you have never gotten a graduate degree Before, one of the biggest differences in between undergrad and grad is the way in which you're going to be educated. Especially here in the US, you're going to find that at US institutions, what tends to happen is In a undergraduate setting, you tend to be taught by the teacher. The teacher is in front teaching you and pushing that knowledge to you. Whereas in a graduate sense, 1, you're going to be delving into a topic that is much more niche And you're just focusing on that topic. But too many faculty members will teach in a way where it's a collaborative approach to learning.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:10:19]: So the faculty member is definitely going to push you and teach you and to educate you on different topics, But they're also going to be drawing out conversation and getting you to be part of the learning that is happening within the classroom itself. So a different type of focus, a different type of way in which You will learn a different type of way in which, you're the rest of the students in the classroom are going to learn, And you have to understand that that difference is going to be there and is going to happen. You also are going to be challenged in many different graduate Programs to do research and if you've never done research before, research is is challenging. It definitely can be something that will We'll push you in many different directions, and you will have to push yourself to learn new things about how to As you see here, the all these are all the steps of research and critical thinking, but these are all different things that in any Pretty much any graduate program that you're gonna be pushed to have to do. So you're gonna have to be able to identify the a problem, be able to research and find out more about that problem, look at the data and the relevance to the data, ask questions further to be able to hone the topic even further, be able to then Identify the best solution for the problem that has been that you have put out there or that has been presented to you and present be able to present your solution And analyze the decision for the choice that you made. Now not every undergraduate student goes through an experience like that where you're Pushed to think about things that deeply at graduate level, you will be. And so the way that you are being Taught the way that you are learning is going to be different. Other successful students, and I don't have this down as as a bullet point specifically, But we'll we'll I'm gonna go to the next slide, and we'll we'll talk a little bit further.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:12:25]: But other other things that we found is time management. In organization, graduate students are balancing a lot of different things. So some of the things that that students need to prepare themselves for is to be able To identify strategies for themselves that are going to help them to balance their work life, Their school life, their personal life, and find ways to best balance that for themselves. Now many students will find that they really need to have some type of a a calendar or something tangible that can help them to set up a schedule for themselves, especially if they're trying to work and do school and have a family, you know, and and and Scheduling time or the things that you know that you need to be scheduling for will help you to be able to make sure that you stay on track And that it allows for you to be able to separate out. I'm working here. I'm doing school here. I'm, you know, spending time Doing this with friends and spending time with family. It is definitely important to have that support that support system behind you, Whether you have a family or if you have friends, you know, it is going to be really important to be able To have those people coming into graduate school, and when you get here, you have to be open to building new systems of support In finding the resources that are available at the school that you go to, whether it's other students in your program, whether it's other Services that are offered on campus, you wanna make sure that you tap into the support that you need early on to make sure that you're going to be successful as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:14:15]: As you're looking at graduate programs, you're definitely going to want to make sure that you're, Well, as you're niching down and you're figuring out exactly what you wanna study, that you wanna study something that you're truly passionate about because you're gonna be Studying for, let's say, 2 years on a specific topic, and all you're going to be studying is that specific topic. If you're not passionate about it, it's gonna show. It's gonna show in your grades. It's gonna show in the research that you do and anything else that you do. So you wanna make sure that in the decision that you're making and the program that you're looking into, that it is definitely a passion area and something that you want to be able to go even deeper on to be able to, be able to make sure that you're going to be able to be successful In that, in that transition to graduate school for yourself. You wanna use resources, I mentioned that already, but there's lots of different Resources that are available on campus that can aid or assist you in many different ways, and you have to open yourself up to knowing that You may need help that you didn't need an undergrad. I had a graduate student that contacted me recently that was taking a biostatistics class And was a bit lost and asked if there were tutors available for statistics. And this student was a little embarrassed by it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:15:38]: And I said to the student, there's nothing to be embarrassed about. You're asking for support. You're asking for help. You're identifying that this is an area that is a bit, that is going to be a bit bit of a challenge and that's okay. What ends up happening that's more of an issue is if you keep pushing through thinking, I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. I'll figure it out. And as you get further on in the term, you get further lost because you haven't asked for help.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:16:10]: There's nothing wrong with asking for help, And faculty love it when students ask for help. Just because they may be seen as an expert in their field Does not mean that they don't have compassion or empathy to what you're going through and that they won't be able to open doors for you or show you where resources lie. There are definitely other resources on campus that can help you along the way with time management or other aspects. On many on most campuses, you're going to find that they have counseling centers. We ours is called CAPS, Which is a counseling and psychological services center. And that is definitely there for any student to be able to access whether they're Stressing out over test anxiety or whether they just need someone to talk to to deal with some other things that are happening in in school, out of school, take advantage of those. If you feel like you might have a learning disability or Something that you need some additional support on, reach out to the disability services office, right, when you get here. If you're a veteran, look look for Veterans services offices to talk to them and to make sure that you're taking advantage of the resources that are out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:17:28]: You definitely wanna stay healthy, and healthy is not only eating right, but it's also exercising. It's taking time for yourself To find, to take, to, to be able to relieve that stress. And each one of you is going to be a little bit different in regard to How you find that that, that health for yourself. Some of you, it may be you need to hit the gym every morning at 8 AM. That's great. For some others, it may be that you need to go on a walk every day or that you need to make sure that you're eating a balanced, balanced meal, you know, 3 times a day. There's lots of different ways that you can stay healthy, but by staying healthy physically and mentally, You're going to be able to keep up the momentum of graduate school. Graduate school can definitely be Challenging and stressful.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:18:26]: You've got to find time to relax and have some fun along the way and know that yes, you're here because You've been admitted to a program and that program is going to be rigorous, but that You also need to find time for yourself and be able to separate school and outside of school so that you can Take a break, take a breather, and be able to get your mind where it needs to be so that you can stay on track at school. And I always put down keep your goals in in mind, keep those in the forefront of your mind. That's going to help you to be able to Make sure that you keep pushing toward the light at the end of the tunnel and allow for you to be able to make sure that you're going to be able to be successful. Lots of other resources, that I haven't mentioned yet. If your campus has if the campus that you're looking at has a writing center or if you don't know, ask. Do is there a writing center? Can graduate students take advantage of it? We have a writing center right in the building that I am in right here at the University of Michigan Flint. Any student can go to it and you can work with, writing I'm gonna say tutors, but But really they're they're people that are getting paid to be able to help you and look at your writing to give you some some assistance in being able to Unblock your mind per se and help you to start moving in the right direction when it comes to the expectations for writing and writing within the graduate program. The library and library staff is definitely something that will hope will help you to be able to Get access to the resources that you need to be able to delve deeper, especially if you're doing research.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:20:18]: But also Many many libraries will also have your textbooks or other supplemental texts that will help you to better understand topics. I talked about staying on schedule, Google task, Google calendar. Great resources. If you've never used them, check them out. They're free resources that can help you to be able to manage your time, your productivity in many different ways. You have to also be adaptable and resilient. There are going to be times during your graduate program Where you will get frustrated, where you might hit a proverbial wall and you are Doing everything you can to get over that wall and you feel like it's a losing battle. I'm not saying that to be be negative in any sense.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:21:08]: It's just a reality for any of us that have gone to graduate school in the past. You will hit it at some point. And if you don't, That's amazing. But if you do, just know that the sign of a successful person is someone that can hit that wall, bounce back, And figure out a different way, figure out another way, figure out a a way to be able to either get help To get over the wall, to get around the wall, to do whatever you can to be able to, to be able to move To the place where you're going. And then as you're looking at graduate programs, you definitely wanna look for supportive and nurturing environments. You want to be in an environment that is going to lift you up and not tear you down. And so as you're looking at programs, you wanna look at that as well. I talked about the importance of building relationships with your faculty members that, as you transition into graduate school, the Relationships that you're going to have with your faculty are going to become more intimate in regard to the how you get to know them and how they will and mentor you as an individual as you go through that graduate degree.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:22:24]: And faculty know that And they are hoping that you will take them up on those opportunities. Many programs will allow for you to have a faculty advisor, and they might call it a faculty mentor, but You're going to be assigned to someone in your program. Get to know that person. Really get to know that person. What are, you know, what are they studying? What are they researching? What what's been their professional experience and what can they do to be able to help you to prepare for That next stage, they're definitely going to be there to help you understand academics and understand what you need to do to graduate. But beyond that, Most faculty members at all institutions come to the classroom with a wealth of different experiences, and it's that experience That you are going to want to draw from to be able to learn and grow from them. So even if you don't have them as a professor in your class, you could still learn from them and learn from The things that went well for them, learn from things that they that didn't go well and that they had to learn and grow from. And by doing that, you're going to be a you're gonna be even more prepared for your life after graduate school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:23:48]: As you look to sit down with your faculty mentor, your faculty advisor for the first time, some things to think about And things to do to prepare for the meeting. Come prepared with questions, make sure that you have questions, topics that you wanna discuss, know that they're going to want to delve a little bit deeper into especially in your 1st meeting Who you are, why you're in the program, why you're interested in the career field, and what your end goals are Because they're gonna wanna see, okay, what can I do to support this student as they're going through our program? As you prepare for this, make sure that you set a meeting. Don't just show up at their office or if you do show up at their office, just say, Would you mind if we set up a meeting so that we could so that I could get to know you a little bit better, and we could talk about my My plan for the program. And then and just don't expect that if you show up at their door that they will have time right then to meet with you. But give them an out and allow for them to be able to, to be able to give you other times that may work. So by preparing for the meeting, you'll be able to ask those informed questions, those things that you've thought out, the things that are important to you, And be able to then talk about the plan that you have to that are going to push you toward getting to the next Step of your own career journey. And as you're talking about that, there's nothing wrong with asking, asking for assistance, asking for help. If there's something specific that you're trying to accomplish, talk to them about it.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:25:40]: They have worked with students for probably many years And have worked to help students in many different ways. So by you being candid about what you need and what you're trying to accomplish, They can better support you down the road. As after that meeting, after You meet with your faculty mentor, definitely look make sure you that you take notes and then synthesize what you've learned To be able to connect together what your mentor has told you, what you need to do for your academic program, And what you want to also accomplish outside of the classroom as well. So all of those pieces will help you to move forward in Your graduate education. Most campuses have a robust career services or career development office With employees that are there to aid students, sometimes those individuals are spread out into Different colleges. So you might if you're in a college of education, there may be someone that's specifically tailored toward working toward education graduates. Other times, it is overarching career services or career development, And they will work with all students no matter what career area that they're in. These offices also many times will hear about internships or other opportunities that are available to students.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:27:12]: They will email students, but they will also have things posted in their office. And by having a strong relationship with that individual, they're gonna be thinking about you while they get these emails and they might start sending you emails. Speaking about email, one of the things that I will say is that When you go to a graduate program, they're going to give you a campus email. Make sure that you check that email numerous times a week And read the emails that are sent to you. You do not wanna miss out on opportunities. And too often, students are, You know, they're not big fans of email, and they don't read the email. And then when they finally do, it's too late. And then they miss out on opportunities that might have, that might have existed.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:28:04]: There's also opportunities for you to get involved on campus. So this is starting to get into To not only the in class academic learning, but also that out of class learning that also happens. Now this may be seen as soft skills, but leadership, communication, budgeting, you know, lots of different things that will allow for you to be able to enhance skills that will prepare you for your work after graduate school. There are student organizations that are set up that might be program specific, so organizations for your academic area. But there could be other organizations such as we have a brand new organization on campus that just started. They had their 1st meeting Just recently, and it's a students of color graduate organization. That's what it's called right now, and they may change their name down down the line. But the nice thing is is that they built this organization to create community.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:29:09]: And From the get go, there's been lots of opportunities for leadership because it's a brand new student organization. So that's something that you could step into at your own institution To look at what type of organizations exist, how could I get involved, is it just going to an activity or an event, Is it that I want to be an actual leader in the organization? Whatever ways that you feel like you're compelled to do, All of those things are going to help you to learn a lot about yourself, but also learn a lot for your career In the future, especially in regards to working with others, speaking to groups, being able to fundraise or being able to budget, You know, it depends on the organization and what the plan or the goal is, but there are definitely lots of opportunities to be able to do just that. So graduate school can be expensive and definitely something that you have to consider is the financials Of the of graduate school, but also scholarships that may be available. For domestic students, you wanna make sure that That you do fill out the FAFSA form. The FAFSA is the free application for federal student aid. It is for US residents. And if you you may have used this for your undergraduate degree too, many times students tell me, well, I'm not gonna fill that out because I'm not gonna get anything. But I what I always say is by filling the FAFSA out, you're making yourself eligible not only for loans, grants, Scholarships from the federal government.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:30:47]: But on top of that, it may open you up for other scholarships that are need based or other type of scholarships That are from the institution in general. So taking the time to be able to be able to put that in and be able to have that considered will only assist. You definitely wanna look at every school. Every school that you're going to should have information about Scholarships that are available or other financial, need that can be provided to you as a student. So you wanna look at that? I have a link here, off of our main graduate programs page called paying for college. And on that, you're going you would see specific scholarships that are listed, but then also, links to our to our, our scholarship application because you do have to go into a separate scholarship application to apply for scholarships. So you need to look at That at the institutions that you're considering as well. There are external scholarships that are also available.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:31:54]: And external scholarships are scholarships that you might find on the scholarship search engines similar to what you see here, Fastweb, CapEx, Unigo, GoGrad, all of those are different entities that bring together Individual scholarships from all over the world and from the answers that you give on Their intake form, many times they will start to email you with different possible scholarships, that you could apply for. Now that takes some time and definitely can, be something that that students choose to or not choose to do. But I will say the more that you do that, the more opportunities that may exist. And I encourage students to always apply for scholarships that they are eligible for. Assistantships is another way that graduate School can get paid for, at least in some ways. Graduate assistantships are salaried positions and basically they are I mean, here at our institution, we use them for graduate research. So you would apply for a graduate research Assistantship. And and in that research assistantship, you would be paired With a faculty member that is doing research on a specific topic, and you would then start working with that faculty member To be able to make sure that you are able to put, that you're able to, that you're able to then work 1 on 1 with that faculty member to be able to, work on getting the research out there.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:33:48]: So So you're getting paid as a in an hourly wage. And at the end of a period of time, you will get a paycheck That'll get submitted to you to be able to use for it could be being used for your tuition. It could be used for Your groceries or other factors as well. I I mentioned that at our institution, we do a lot of research, but In that, but there are other campuses that may have staff type positions as well. And There are some programs that require you to be in in an assistantship to have a spot in the program. There are other programs that don't have that, And that it's just a add on. And if you decide to apply for those, that's even better. So, so that's some some things to keep in mind.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:34:42]: The differences between the institutions are going to be very unique. So scholarships are going to be vastly different. By the way they do research, research may be different. The way that they do assistantships may be different. So all of those things are things that you're going to wanna think about And look into as you're considering your graduate program itself. Couple other things. You definitely want to make sure that you are budgeting in graduate school and you are able to, And you're able to make sure that you, can set a budget for yourself. As I said, graduate school will cost money.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:35:27]: It is it can be expensive, and you wanna make sure that you understand what the reality is and what your budget needs to look like to be able to be successful in in being able to be Financially successful in that journey. Make sure that you're building good credit while you're in school. Don't put everything on a credit card And not pay it off because that's going to lead toward a lot of other problems. I I tend to say that If you have debt coming into graduate school that you can pay down, that's even better versus coming in with a lot of debt in your that you're trying to pay off while you're going through graduate school. If you had loans in undergrad, those can be put Those can be deferred while you're in graduate school in the US, especially for domestic students. There are loans that are available for graduate school. Those loans are based off there are going to be limits though. So depending on how much you took out in your undergraduate degree will also make a difference on whether or not, you can get federal loans for graduate school and how much you can take out and and add on to the overarching balance that you may or may not have.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:36:50]: And then you can also look on campus. Look on campus or off campus for part time work to help you pay for some of those expenses To help you along the way. So, couple of other things just to to wrap up today, and then I'm gonna open it up for questions. This QR code will link you to Our graduate program resource page, which is our graduate blog, our graduate programs blog, on there, you're You're going to find a couple of things. You're gonna find a number of different articles that will talk about graduate student success, paying for graduate school, How do you pick a graduate program? There's lots of lots of resources that are on there. The other thing though that I would encourage you to check out Is we have a podcast that we've been doing now since 2022, August of 2022, And have over a 100 podcast episodes on the Victors in Grad School podcast. Now this is a podcast that is Available no matter where you are and what, what all you have to do is you can go here to this website and listen there or Go to anywhere that a podcast is, is housed and type in victors in grad school, and you'll find it. And on that podcast, you're going to find that we talk all about what it means to find success in grad school.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:38:22]: I talk to people every week that have gone to graduate school or are currently in graduate school, and they talk about The journey that they're on and what they've had to do to find success in that journey or what they had to do to find success in the earlier journey that Will hopefully help you and give you some things to think about to help you make this transition smoothly into graduate school. This will take you to this next one will take you to our graduate programs page. This lists all of our Graduate programs at the University of Michigan, Flinto. We've got over 40 different graduate programs that are available I admit all levels of education from the PhD all the way to graduate certificates. So depending on what you have an interest in and what you're interested in studying, though, there those are all different things that, that you'll find on this site. So if you take a quick screenshot there. And then if you know exactly what you want and if you know that if you know we have a program or you want more information on any of our programs, you can click on this A QR code and this QR code will take you over to our inquiry form. All you have to do is put in your name, your email, the program that you're interested in, when you want to study And let us know and then you will be able to you'll start getting some emails from us that will Send you information about the program that you have an interest in and then connect you with that program as well.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:39:56]: Okay. Finally, this is our our, grad office email account. So flint grad office at umich.edu, encourage you to I do encourage you to To reach out to our office at any point, if you've got questions along the way, no matter what they are, just reach out, Ask us questions, and we will be happy to help in any way that we can. Feel free just to email us at flintgrandoffice@umich.edu with any questions that you may have. Be happy to help others in the future, but I really appreciate you being here today and look forward to talking to you in the future. Thanks for being here. The University of Michigan Flint has a full array of masters and doctorate programs if you are interested in continuing your Education. Whether you're looking for in person or online learning options, the University of Michigan Flint has programs that will meet your needs.

Dr. Christopher Lewis [00:40:51]: For more information on any of our Graduate programs, visit umflint.edu/graduateprograms to find out more. Thanks again for spending time with Me as you prepare to be a victor in grad school. I look forward to speaking with you again soon As we embark together on your graduate school journey. If you have any questions or want to reach out, Email me at flintgradoffice@umflint.edu.