Unmade - media & marketing through an Aussie lens

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Welcome to the first Unmade podcast post sent via Substack since last week’s migration of our written content into the Mumbrella publishing stack. Fingers crossed the tech still works from our new domain, and this finds your feed.

Today’s conversation features the first podcast interview with ARN Media’s new CEO Michael Stephenson, along with chief audience and content officer Lauren Joyce.

Supercharging the ARN transformation strategy

The largest audience of Upfronts season gathered at Sydney’s Star Entertainment Centre last night to hear about ARN Media’s ambitious plans for 2026.

Ahead of the series of announcements (see Mumbrella’s coverage of the details via this link), new CEO Michael Stephenson and content boss Lauren Joyce talked to Tim Burrowes.

The wide-ranging conversation covered:

The national rollout of Gold, spearheaded by the Christian O’Connell Show live into Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane, and on delay into Perth and Adelaide;
August’s rushed announcement of the switch of The Jonesy & Amanda Show, featuring Amanda Keller and Brendan Jones, from Sydney breakfast to national drive;
Whether this is finally the moment when the industry starts properly marketing its DAB+ stations;
Why there’s still been no move to expand The Kyle & Jackie O Show, from Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson, beyond Sydney and Melbourne. Are ongoing enforcement actions from Australian Communications and Media Authority a factor despite “continued confidence”?;
The inheritance left by outgoing CEO Ciaran Davis
An explanation for CADA’s controversial Thy AI voice experiment
Reaching the inflection point where the audio industry returns to growth
Where ARN fits into the media consolidation cycle - could it get back into the outdoor advertising business? And why we shouldn’t read too much into the Are Media tie-in
Opportunities for the industry to come together to rethink how it does Upfronts season
Domain expertise - does it matter that neither Stephenson or Joyce are radio natives? According to Joyce: “I may not have the hard programming skills of a radio programmer, but what I do know is how to motivate people and how to engage people, and I also understand audiences.”

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

You’ll find lots more coverage of the ARN Upfronts on Mumbrella. And I’ll be offering my own analysis in our Best of the Week email on Saturday.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit unmade.substack.com

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade, focused on yesterday’s Nine Upfronts. And further down, the investment market seems to like Vinyl Group’s plan to use AI to create ten times as much editorial content.

It’s your last chance to sign up to a paid membership of Unmade and lock in all of the current benefits. Next week, we’re going to stop accepting new paying members of Unmade. Instead we’ll be offering membership of an expanded Mumbrella Pro as we bring the two brands closer together.

All Unmade membership perks will be carried across, including complimentary tickets to Unlock and Compass for our annual paying members. These won’t be available to anyone else as part of the new Mumbrella Pro membership.

Your paid membership also includes exclusive analysis and access to our content archive, which goes behind the paywall six weeks after publication.

Upgrade today.

Nine’s low risk Upfronts: ‘Fundamentally we are still a premium content long-form business’

It’s already been a long Upfronts season. Yet until yesterday afternoon’s Nine Upfront, none of the free to air TV players had set out their wares.

In the podcast accompanying this post, I talk to Nine’s new chief sales officer Matt James.

It was also Matt Stanton’s first Upfronts as CEO. And although he didn’t come on stage, it was the first for Peter Tonagh not just as a Nine board director but incoming chair.

So the event, ultimately, was a vibe check. After the sale of Domain, this was the first look at how Nine is facing the future in what has been a depressed advertising market.

On the new content side, this was the least ambitious Nine Upfront I’ve been to since 2008 (the year the best content they had to talk about was Gordon Ramsay and Two and a Half Men).

Not that this worried the audience - marketers and media agency people who prefer certainty when they book campaigns. The reliable shows are on the slate - The Block, Married At First Sight, Lego Masters et al. And sport - NRL, tennis and now the English Premier League - were prominent. Plus the winter Olympics.

But with the exception of Shark!, featuring Nine-aligned celebs like The Block’s Scot Cam meeting a shark. There was not a single big drama commission from Nine. That was a first, I think.

There were some interesting choices around the preso, which was all business. There was no on-air talent on stage. And no lighter moments - imagine a whole Nine Upfronts without Today presenter Karl Stefanovic poking fun at himself. In what must have been a deliberate tone, there wasn’t a single joke in the script. All the men wore suits (of course); all the women wore pantsuits.

In our conversation, Matt James reveals that Nine’s management have been working on their purpose for the business - and it’s as a content company: “Fundamentally we are still a premium content long-form business.” But not, it would seem, one that plans to take big risks with that content. Not in this market, anyway.

Most of the announcements were iterative - an upgraded self service Nine Ad Managers platform; lots of data and tech partnerships. (What would an Upfront be without a data partnership?)

Instead this was an interim Upfront before Nine’s future direction is settled. How to invest the money from the sale of Domain remains an open question. So too is the business-defining decision of what Nine does in the next NRL rights negotiation.

Stanton gave a couple of interviews this week to coincide with the Upfronts. He said remarkably little. Giving the benefit of the doubt, it could be that revealing the plan would drive up the price of whatever asset(s) Nine wants to purchase. But it leaves a gap where the vision belongs. After these Upfronts, I’m none the wiser on the vision.

The conversation with James does offer a couple of glimpses. As you’ll hear, he is fond of business jargon, but there was a little more than that.

Tellingly, was the fact that James was bullish on his ability to monetise NRL across free to air and streaming if Nine chases all rights in the next deal. “To have that control and flow of audience between your BVOD subscribers and your SVOD consumers… would be a phenomenal opportunity. So we already have an incredibly powerful and growing asset base, both in the BVOD and SVOD environment. I think we’d be very successful at it and would absolutely back myself 110%. If not, I’m shortly out of a job in six months.”

In other words, as well as free to air, Nine may chase the pay rights currently held by Foxtel.

Speaking of Foxtel, James also sent the strongest signal yet that Nine is going to become part of the Video Futures Collective. The VFC was created by Foxtel Media when Foxtel resigned from industry marketing body Think TV and later OzTAM.

Despite the fact that Nine unveiled new research designed to demonstrate the effectiveness of television - the sort of thing that might previously have been industry funded via the moribund Think TV - James says that there will be collaboration with competitors.

For more than a year, there have been ongoing promises from the TV players to imminently come back together to market their medium. Yet they never quite seem to happen. In our interview, James puts a timeline on it “I would like to think that certainly within the next two months, we can at least start to give clarity on how we would like to move forward as an industry. You know, it’s critical.”

More than once, James talked about the virtues of a private exchange. It sounds like the concept - effectively one place where premium video ads can be traded - is a few steps further than just being a concept.

In the conversation, we also explore the virtues of Nine buying an outdoor company. And then there’s the question of radio. With Nine Radio’s talk network on the block, it must have been a dilemma on how to present it.

The signal on the night was not entirely subtle - while publishing and TV presented side by side, Nine radio’s commercial boss Brian Gallagher did his bit solo. It was a pretty good shop window, and he made Nine Radio seem like an asset worth buying.

In our interview James accepted the premise that Nine might be better off owning an FM radio network that does better in the 25-54 demographic. “Obviously, in the FM environment, it does obviously attract to younger audiences. And there are actually strategically some interesting dynamics there that can work when you think about the sort of drive time integration and what those younger audiences represent.”

By the time the next Nine Upfronts come around, things should be much clearer. The next NRL deal should be done. If Nine is going to buy into FM radio or outdoor, it will have happened. We’ll see.

Vinyl’s AI bet gets early vote

The investment market appeared to like yesterday’s announcement from Vinyl Group that it intends to use AI to create ten times the amount of content it currently produces, while reducing staff costs. Vinyl shares rose by 4.6%.

Meanwhile, of the bigger stocks, Seven West Media had the best day, improving by 2.2% while its merger partner Southern Cross Austereo lost 0.6%

The Unmade Index closed almost flat for the day, on 472.1 points.

More from Mumbrella…

Mumbrellacast: Inside Hardie Grant’s Keep Left acquisition, OOH’s big week, and ex-Paramount owner talks Skydance and Trump
Hardie Grant acquires Keep Left in a deal a year in the making
Out-of-home industry rises across all categories
‘I was blown away’: Former Paramount owner believes settlement with Trump was a good deal
This just in: News bulletins are the latest podcast trend

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow, with a four year anniversary update on Unmade.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today, we talk to the architect of AI-led ad agency Cuttable. And Nine’s shares sink as the market awaits a plan for life after Domain.

To get maximum value from a paid membership of Unmade, sign up today.

Your annual membership gets you tickets to September’s REmade conference on retail media; to October’s Unlock conference on marketing in the nighttime economy; and to Unmade’s Compass end-of-year roadshow.

You also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

Betting on Meta - How Cuttable is targeting SMEs

In today’s audio-led edition of Unmade we talk to the co-founder of AI-powered ad agency, Cuttable.

Cuttable, founded by creative agency exec Jack White, former Swisse marketer Ed Ring, and tech entrepreneur Sam Kroonenburg, was initially serving some of the biggest brands in the country – Medibank, Wesfarmers, and Nando’s, to name a few.

But over the past 12 months, the Melbourne-based startup has pivoted to the smaller end of town. Now focused on the “97%” of brands that have grown up entirely in the social media era, it has turned its attention to those relying on Meta for growth.

The shift wasn’t just a tactical decision, it was a bet on where the future of brand building is heading. White believes the next decade will belong to businesses born and scaled on social media, and he wants Cuttable to be the engine that powers them.

“It was a hard decision, we had good revenue. We nearly hit one million [dollars] in ARR (annual recurring revenue), but we made that choice to hand back some of the money to the bigger brands.”

He says smaller businesses, founder-led businesses, benefit most from Cuttable’s capabilities. The entrenched processes of larger brands – strict brand guidelines, layers of approval, disjointed agency villages – slow down testing and learning too much. In comparison, the nimble nature of smaller brands means they are able to iterate at speed, and they are far hungrier for the immediate impact Cuttable can deliver.

That hunger, White says, is driven by necessity: “They’re doing their best to keep up with the volume and pace [of advertising] but they’re struggling, because they’re not advertisers. They care about their brands, they’re literally spending their nights and weekends making ads.”

Across Cuttable’s client base, 80–90% of ad budgets are funnelled into Facebook, Instagram, and Marketplace. White notes that these channels demand constant “creative variation” – a steady stream of fresh ads that keep the algorithm engaged. It’s a requirement that overwhelms small marketing teams but plays to Cuttable’s strength: generating high-quality, high-volume creative without human bottlenecks.

While some might see a risk in focusing so heavily on one platform – especially as Meta invests in its own AI ad tools – White is confident Cuttable’s edge lies in combining tech expertise and automation with advertising know-how. The team includes talent from TBWA, Ogilvy, Medibank, and Meta itself, all working alongside top engineers to blend industry craft with cutting-edge tech.

“Anyone can spit out content,” he says, “but making something people actually want to click on still takes a good idea.”

That blend is also what’s attracting investors. Cuttable has raised $10m on a valuation of $44.5m, with backers including Square Peg and The Brand Fund. The capital is fuelling not just product development but an ambitious expansion into the US, where White sees an even larger market of small and medium brands battling the same challenges.

Nine fades as market awaits annual update

Nine’s share price continued to sag today, losing another 0.6%. The company has now lost more than 5% in recent days as its most keenly anticipated full year results announcement in some years approaches.

On August 27 - just under a fortnight from now - the company will receive the $1.4bn proceeds from the sale of Domain on the same day it releases its FY25 financial update. Shareholders expect to receive a share of the cash, along with some of the company’s debt being paid down. However, just as keenly anticipated is for Nine CEO Matt Stanton to share a new vision for the TV-led business, including any potential new acquisition strategy.

On Tuesday Seven West Media set the tone for results season with a downbeat set of numbers, albeit with a slight improvement in the second half of the year. SWM shares improved by 7.1% today, after losing 6.7% on Tuesday.

The two major audio players both had down days, with Southern Cross Austereo losing 2.5% to land on a market capitalisation of $140.3m, just ahead of the $139.3m of ARN Media, which lost 3.2%.

Ooh Media lost 0.6% to land on a market cap of $924m.

The Unmade Index closed on 571.4 points, down 0.68% for the day.

More from Mumbrella…

McDonald’s split: Longest client-agency partnership in Australian advertising comes to an end
'We're renowned as a difficult partner for the production sector, but that's going to change': ABC boss Hugh Marks
Droga5 chief strategist departs for new gig at the ABC
Australian Olympic Committee communications chief departs
Government ‘considering AI training disclosure laws’
Opinion: We must fix the fan experience for football broadcasting
Paramount stocks soar after UFC deal and ‘meme stock’ comment

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great night

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we talk to Christian O’Connell about his plans to (sort of) take his radio show national. Plus a big fall for Seven West Media on the Unmade index.

We’ve announced the schedule for this year’s Compass series. Our panel-in-the-pub, end-of-year tour kicks off in Sydney on November 3 and concludes in Hobart a fortnight later. Reflecting on 2025 and projecting into 2026, please hold the date for your city:

November 3 – Compass Sydney
November 5 – Compass Brisbane
November 10 – Compass Adelaide
November 11 – Compass Perth
November 17 – Compass Melbourne
November 18 – Compass Hobart

Unmade’s paying members get a free ticket to Compass. Your annual membership also gets you tickets to September’s REmade conference on retail media; and to October’s Unlock conference on marketing in the nighttime economy.

And you also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

When is a radio show not really national? When it’s on DAB

I have something of a confession.

When I recorded this week’s podcast with Christian O’Connell on Monday morning, I didn’t have all the facts. When you listen, you’ll hear me miss what is now an obvious question.

ARN Media had just announced O’Connell’s Melbourne-based Gold FM breakfast show was going live nationally. After last week’s announcement that Brendan Jones and Amanda Keller were vacating their Gold FM Sydney breakfast show for a shift to drive, it was clear that O’Connell would be networking into both cities, but the national move was a surprise.

I took the announcement at face value. The technical problem I focused on was that of the time difference.

Depending on time of year, when the show kicks off in Melbourne at 6am, that would be 3am in Perth. Or 5am in Queensland. Or 5.30am in Adelaide. But the announcement was unequivocal (and, as I’ll explain further down, misleading): “This is the first time a commercial radio breakfast show will go live across the country.”

For a show that thrives on the conversation with callers, that would, I assumed, have to mean a longer show. Stay on air longer, until at least 11am Melbourne time perhaps, in order to be genuinely live. There’s precedent for running long. Over on Kiis FM, stablemates Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson usually stay well beyond their official finish time.

Alternatively, as a half way house (and admittedly not properly live), shortly after 9am in Melbourne, record a bunch of talk breaks to cover the next two hours.

The practicality of time zones is already a reality for broadcasters. The likes of ABC Radio National, and the TV networks, broadcast their shows as live, on a time delay. But when something big enough is breaking, they go fully live for their west coast audiences.

But the assumption that I - and the rest of the industry - made was that ARN Media was planning to put The Christian O’Connell Show to air in each market on one of their existing stations.

That had been the plan when ARN was looking to capture Triple M in its failed Southern Cross Austereo takeover bid.

The new national plan was most intriguing in Perth where ARN’s 96FM leads the market with a 14.8% audience share. However, 96FM is more closely aligned with ARN Media’s Kiis network branding than Gold. ARN shares a second licence in the city with Nova Entertainment.

And the existing 96FM breakfast show, featuring Dean Clairs and Lisa Shaw, underperforms compared to the rest of the station, sitting third in its time slot. Dropping in The Christian O’Connell Show would be a bold move but plausible.

At the very least, with one licence in the market, ARN Media appeared to have selected O’Connell over the Kyle & Jackie O Show to lead its national networking strategy. To use the Formula One analogy, where each team has two drivers, ARN had chosen O’Connell as its number one driver.

But the plan appeared anything but fully formed.

As you’ll hear O’Connell concede during the interview: “The Perth side, we’re still working out the best way to do that. It might sound like ‘If you’ve been talking about this for seven years, why haven’t you sorted that out?’”

In truth, it’s not going to be a national show. Or at least not on radios nationally. Outside of Sydney and Melbourne the show will be DAB only. Disingenuously, the word DAB did not appear in the announcement.

Almost nobody listens to DAB. And for fans of O’Connell in other cities, they can already stream the show anyway.

DAB ratings are so low that Commercial Radio Australia doesn’t even publish the average listening numbers, only cumulative audience - the number of people who merely tune in at some point across the week. On DAB, the station 96FM 80s has a cume of just 61,000. That’s compared to a cume for the main 96FM of 506,000.

So why pretend the show is national when it is not?

That’s where ARN has made a hash of its communications.

They were bounced into it after Jones and Keller decided to tell their listeners they were being moved to drive time. Reading between the lines, it’s clear the duo would rather have stayed in breakfast.

As O’Connell says in the interview: “Things have been jump started a bit. We were meant to be announcing this in a couple of weeks time.”

ARN should have waited until it got its story straight.

The mere fact of Christian O’Connell broadcasting live into Sydney was interesting enough, and a credible first step to a national audience.

But that’s not what this move represents.

Instead, it potentially sets him up for failure.

If ARN had presented it to the market as a two-city show, then Sydney and Melbourne would have been seen as the battleground - and, incidentally, one where O’Connell has the craft, talent and work ethic to win.

It could even have been accompanied by the supplemental message that the show will additionally be available on DAB in those other markets. But it can’t pretend that the show is fully in each of those markets - advertisers won’t accept it anyway.

Now, unless ARN rapidly changes its messaging, each survey will be accompanied by terrible comparisons in Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane.

Presented as a national sell, it will cause confusion about what should be a simple buy. Marketers and media agencies won’t buy the national story until it’s a genuine national story.

What a waste of what should have been good news from ARN.

Seven share price decimated

Seven West Media and Vinyl Group both took big hits on the ASX today, losing 10% and 7.6% respectively.

SWM’s price of 14c is close to its low point of 12c it briefly hit in April. Vinyl Group is at its lowest point since May.

Meanwhile Nine, which is currently the biggest locally based media and marketing stock, rose by 1.2% to a market capitalisation of $2.7bn.

The Unmade Index rose slightly by 0.15% to 586.2 points.

More from Mumbrella…

Call for AI compensation fund in copyright fight
Sports marketer Marissa Pace switches lanes, joins Guide Dogs NSW/ACT as CMO
Opinion: The loneliest place on earth (for a creative)
New York Post goes west with daily California Post newspaper

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. Time to leave you to your evening. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. After this week’s news that Solstice Media is buying Australian Traveller Media, we talk to founder Paul Hamra about the 20-year run up to the company’s growth spurt.

We’ve announced the schedule for this year’s Compass series. Our panel-in-the-pub end-of-year tour kicks off in Sydney on November 3 and concludes in Hobart a fortnight later. Reflecting on 2025 and projecting into 2026, please hold the date for your city:

3rd November – Compass Sydney
5th November – Compass Brisbane
10th November – Compass Adelaide
11th November – Compass Perth
17th November – Compass Melbourne
18th November – Compass Hobart

And Unmade members get a free ticket. To get maximum value from a paid membership of Unmade, sign up today.

Your annual membership also gets you tickets to September’s REmade conference on retail media; and to October’s Unlock conference on marketing in the nighttime economy.

You also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

‘If they were as concerned about the media as they say they are something would have happened by now’

To the outsider, Solstice Media’s national expansion may look like a sudden development. Last year, Solstice took ownership of The New Daily. This month it took control of Schwartz Media’s 7am podcast. And this week Solstice took a majority stake in Australian Traveller Media.

In truth, the expansion of Solstice - which now has 87 staff - has been more organic. Solstice started life as the publisher of South Australian newspaper The Independent Weekly, before taking on News Corp in Adelaide with InDaily.

Solstice’s national footprint grew when it was hired by some of Australia’s industry super funds to launch the New Daily more than a decade ago, and recently bought the masthead from the funds.

In the wide ranging conversation, Hamra discusses his shareholder base of impact investors, and tries to avoid answering how much he paid for Australian Traveller. He explains: “The reason why we liked Australian Traveller is because of the cultural fit, that we were like-minded in terms of our attitude towards publishing, our attitudes towards independence and quality.”

The intention for the company’s lifestyle publications is to help fund its journalism: “If you look over history, you'll see that in any media outlet, it's not the news that funds the business. It's actually other verticals that have funded the business.“

Hamra is also refreshingly honest about the post-rationalisation many publishers go through when they build their businesses. “We end up growing a little bit like Topsy until we fall into a strategy. And that's kind of what's happened to us. We actually had an audience and we bolted things onto that audience over time. And then 15, 16 years down the track, you go, oh, hang on… all of a sudden we've got this fabulous audience and we've actually got a strategy.”

Solstice had been a beneficiary of Facebook funding, and had to make redundancies when it dried up. Like all publishers, Hamra also has a view on the unavoidable need to do business with platforms like Google, and a more sceptical view on whether the government really wants to help Australia’s media owners:

“They sound desperate to help, but the reality is we know they're not because they would have done something by now. If they were as concerned about the media as they say they are, something would have happened by now.

More from Mumbrella…

Clock ticking for loss-making Aspermont
Union boss slams News Corp’s use of AI in newsrooms
On the road again: Compass event series dates announced
Opinion: Marketing measurement is having a moment, but can it deliver?
‘Callous and punitive’: Rosie Waterland launches own podcast network after battle with SCA
Dr Mumbo: Is Youtube social media? Just Google it
Google cancels Parliament House party after Youtube ban
Christian O’Connell’s national move ‘to begin in Sydney’

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. We’ll be back with more soon.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

We’re a day earlier than usual in our weekly podcast cycle, after last night’s announcement that Eric Beecher’s Private Media has bought the David Koch-founded Pinstripe Media. Today’s interview features Private Media CEO Will Hayward and Pinstripe’s MD AJ Koch.

And further down, there were big swings in both directions on the Unmade Index.

To get maximum value from a paid membership of Unmade, sign up today.

You also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

‘We’re trying to build a mass product’

This week saw a major consolidation in the publishing sector serving small businesses, with Private Media, owner of Smart Company, buying its biggest rival Pinstripe Media. Pinstripe, founded by former Sunrise presenter David Koch, publishes Startup Daily, Flying Solo and Business Builders.

Private Media has been examining its options to grow through acquisition for some time. In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Will Hayward explains why, of 30 potential acquisitions, Pinstripe was the deal to do. And AJ Koch explains why now was the time to sell the family firm.

David Koch will continue to front Business Builders for now, but will not be coming across as a member of staff.

In the conversation Hayward acknowledges the view of investor Warren Buffett that acquirers are usually on the wrong end of any acquisition. He argues: “We think media is different, and I would argue that the trend in media has been positive.”

On the exit of his father from managing Pinstripe, AJ Koch says: “He's not a spring chicken anymore and we know he needs to retire at some point. We'd always talked about being open to an exit at some point. But we weren't actively looking.”

Hayward says that the logic of the deal is centred on the close competition between the two organisations in targeting an audience of small and medium sized businesses. But he claims this new found pricing power will not be used to put up prices for advertisers and sponsors, but to make it easier to advertise in the sector.

He says: "The first step to building a really sustainable business in which the majority of revenue comes from advertising is to make sure that you're making it really easy for your advertisers to grow their spend year on year. If I was a CEO of a publicly listed business where I was incentivized on the next 12 months of revenue, absolutely pricing power matters a great deal. I'm not.

“We're not too focused on the next year. We're focused more on the next three to five years. And the first step on that journey will be making it as easy as possible for the marketing team at Big Tech Inc to say ‘That's a great buy. Let's just keep doing that buy'.”

Red and green on the Unmade Index

The Unmade Index crept up on Tuesday during a day with no clear direction.

Southern Cross Austereo and Seven West Media both saw upwards jumps of 3.4% and 3.5% respectively.

And Vinyl Group and Enero saw larger falls of 8.7% and 4.1% respectively.

The Unmade Index closed on 586.6 points, an improvement for the day of 0.18%.

More from Mumbrella…

Nine Radio loses Sydney and Melbourne as listeners switch to FM
The case of the smoking bullet point: Qantas admits to ChatGPT use ‘for formatting’
Omnicom confirms Nick Garrett to lead new Oceania structure
Exclusive: Paul Bradbury quits in wake of Omnicom changes
Why are readers fleeing from Australia’s top news sites?
Opinion: No CMO is an island: Why collaboration is more important than ever to marketing leadership

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. We’ll be back with more soon.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today we dive into one of the fastest evolving marketing opportunities - connected TV - with Alex Spurzem, boss of Samsung Ads.

Plus, a record-beating day on the Unmade Index for marketing and print player IVE Group.

To get maximum value from a paid membership of Unmade, sign up today.

You also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

‘The trap is to underestimate the capacity viewers have to want different things at different times’

In today’s interview we talk streaming TV with the man who claims to be reaching 7m Australian viewers, Alex Spurzem, MD for Samsung Ads in Australia, NZ and SE Asia.

Thanks to the prevalence of Samsung televisions, the company now has what it claims is the world’s biggest FAST - free ad supported television - service.

According to Spurzem, the opportunity of streaming TV in all main screen forms is being underestimated. For brands, particularly those with access to their own content, that includes the ability to spin up their own channels.

He argues “Barriers to creating a TV channel are lower than ever. Now you can have a TV channel up and running in 24 hours.” He observes: “You need about 100 hours of content to make the channel worthwhile.”

As opposed to the lean-forward nature of subscription streaming, FAST represents a return to the TV habits of the free to air era. According to Spurzem: “TV had been for many decades what became scrolling through content, TV channels you can zap through.” FAST works on the same principle.

Spurzem made an early decision to join the Video Futures Collective and joined Foxtel Media’s Toby Dewar on stage at last year’s Upfronts to back the initiative, which represents a break from the media establishment centred around the FTA-owned OzTAM.

He says it was because VFC filled a gap. “There was a lack of evidence for marketers of how streaming could fit in.”

Spurzem argues that VFC is not set up in opposition to OzTAM, which he suggests may be less relevant in the future anyway. “As time goes on, measurement that’s based on samples and panels and streaming meters will become less robust.” He points out: “Say both of us watch the same show… even though you and I are watching the same content there’s a decent chance we’ll see different ads during the ad break. The idea of content as a proxy for ad measurement will become less robust.”

“Sooner or later we’ll get to the point where the majority of TV is just digital. Once the majority of TV is traded digitally through fit-for-purpose advertising technology. When that takes place around impressions and frequency caps, at that point is a reach currency as valuable as it used to be? I can’t help but think that in other areas like online display advertising there’s never been demand for a reach currency.”

However, Spurzem does not rule out following Netfix in becoming an OzTAM subscriber, conceding: “There are areas we can collaborate on”.

And on the topic of AI, Spurzem offers a case for optimism as far as the TV industry goes: “You’re not going to get an AI agent to watch TV for you.”

IVE Group’s charge up the Unmade Index continues

Print and marketing business IVE Group led the way at the top end of the Unmade Index, rising by 1.3% on a day when most Unmade Index stocks sank. The company is trading at the highest share price in its history and closing in on a half a billion dollars valuation.

Among the larger stocks, Seven West Media had the worst day on the Index, losing 3.3% while Southern Cross Austereo dropped 2.7%. Ooh Media, which lost its Auckland Transport contract yesterday, sank 2.6%.

The Unmade Index closed on 579.1 points, a loss for the day of 0.75%.

More from Mumbrella…

Telstra’s ‘Wherever We Go’ voted most unforgettable ad – and most hated
Havas’ James Wright formally expands remit in wake of Virginia Hyland exit
Opinion: Happy World PR Day: The earned revolution is here
6,000 downloads enough for ABC News to top Podcast Ranker
Opinion: Qantas breach: In a crisis, you need to reach people where they are
Retail media outgrows its shell: ‘Structure and collaboration are essential’

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. Time to leave you to your evening. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. On the day the annual Infinite Dial results exploring audio adoption patterns in Australia are released, we discuss the planning and buying of podcast advertising.

Sign up for an annual paid membership of Unmade before June 30 and you’ll receive a huge additional benefit - a complimentary membership of Mumbrella Pro, usually priced at $790. It’s our best ever end of financial year offer.

Along with all of our paywalled content, your annual Unmade membership gets you tickets to September’s REmade conference on retail media; to October’s Unlock conference on marketing in the nighttime economy; and to Unmade’s Compass end-of-year roadshow.

And Mumbrella Pro contains an extensive archive of presentations from Mumbrella’s conferences, including last month’s Mumbrella 360, along with the industry’s most detailed database of brand and agency rosters.

‘Too many brands are still thinking about reach when they're thinking about podcast advertising, and a successful campaign being about cheap CPMs.’

A year on from the launch of Australia’s first, and to date only, media agency specialising in the planning and buying of podcast advertising, we check in with the team at Earmax - Andy Maxwell and Ralph van Dijk.

Maxwell and van Dijk linked up to launch Earmax a year ago. Prior to coming to Australia, Maxwell spent most of his career in the UK, working within marketing and podcasting, while van Dijk is adland’s elder statesman of audio, having run specialist radio agency Eardrum for 35 years.

During the podcast conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, the duo discuss the high engagement levels of podcast listeners, why reach isn’t everything, and the challenges of the specialist agency cutting through in the market.

According to Maxwell: “As a podcast listener, you hear how much wastage there is, you hear how you get served the wrong ads in the wrong environments. When you do get served the right ads it’s powerful.”

Maxwell argues that one of the major errors being made by marketers and planners is making conversations about podcasts one of reach rather than specialisation. He argues: “One of the big issues itself is that people are still thinking about reach and incremental reach, when actually the podcast medium should be about driving consideration and conversions.

“These big brands, you can get your reach from everywhere else, but podcasts, because of the environment, because of how engaged the audience is, you have such a massive opportunity, whether the reach is 100,000 or a million.

“You can find a specific audience interested in a specific subject and get them in an environment where they are so leaned in.”

He adds: “Too many brands are still thinking about reach when they're thinking about podcast advertising and a successful campaign being about cheap CPMs. Five podcasts of 50,000 listeners is more effective than one podcast of 250,000.”

Meanwhile, van Dijk is frank about the pace of adoption of Earmax in the market, saying it has gone more slowly than he anticipated. He says: “I just thought that word would catch on and they'd all be telling their mates and there would be people banging down the door to have us look at their campaigns.

“The reality is that there's structures, processes, arrangements, partnerships in place for both the creative and the media, which a tough decision has to be made to go around that.”

He adds: “There's a lot of politics.”

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

In the meantime, don’t forget to join us for The Infinite Dial Australia, in a couple of hours.

I’m hosting a conversation with ARN Media’s Lauren Joyce, Thinkerbell’s Margie Reid, and Edison Research’s Larry Rosin about the state of play in audio.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition contains highlights from the finale of Mumbrella360, with our Compass panel reflecting on FY25 and projecting for FY26. Plus, Vinyl Group is the worst performer on the Unmade Index for a second day in a row.

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AI b**t; agency ageism; and finding reasons for optimism - Compass live from Mumbrella360

It was a strong finish to Mumbrella360, with our Compass format coming to the conference for the first time.

In a panel moderated by Tim Burrowes, we heard from Josh Faulks, CEO of the Australian Association of National Advertisers, Natalie Harvey, CEO of Mamamia; Jacquie Alley, chair of the Independent Media Agencies Association and John Schoolcraft, the brains behind the Oatly brand.

In a fast-paced conversation, the panel romped across topics including the benefits and perils of LinkedIn, the state of the market, and the permanent staple of the effectiveness versus creativity debate

Schoolcraft, who earlier in the day had delivered Mumbrella360’s opening keynote, focused on the sweeping changes being caused by generative AI: “The moats are gone now - AI just leveled the playing field.”

Faulks was slightly more sceptical and argued that concerns about job losses in the industry are overblown: ”We’re hitting the peak of the AI hype cycle. There’s a lot of b**t. I don’t think it’s about job losses. We spend way too much time talking about the bad things that could happen with AI and not enough on the opportunities.”

Alley nominated a topic that requires more discussion: “The ageism that sits in this industry. My prediction is that strategic thinking is only going to get more important. I’m hopeful the more experienced employees will finally start to be valued. They (clients) want the head of strategy in the retainer… Experienced people aren’t billable, and that’s a problem.”

And Harvey urged publishers and platforms to seek a peace process: “With the globals, the challenge is, it’s not about creativity, it’s about mass reach and getting things cheaper. That’s what’s weird about the fight with Australian publishers - we make their platforms better.”

More from Mumbrella…

Schwartz Media to sell 7am podcast
Ten names The Project’s replacement news show: Ten News+
Adam Sadler to lead Scentre Group’s Brandspace retail media push
M+C Saatchi kills off Bohemia brand
Starcom appoints Matt Houltham as CEO
Mumbrellacast: The Project and Q+A get the boot; Challenges women face in media; and Greg Hywood’s verdict on Nine

Unmade Index grows as Vinyl falls again

Vinyl Group saw the biggest fall on the Unmade Index for the second day in a row on Wednesday. It lost 4.2% to land on a market capitalisation of $144m.

Vinyl had briefly traded on a bigger valuation than audio companies Southern Cross Austereo and ARN Media. SCA gained 1.6% to land on $152m; ARN lost 1.9% to land on $158m.

Elsewhere on the Unmade Index, Ooh Media gained 2.5% and Nine gained 1.6%.

The Unmade Index closed up 1.1% on 564.1 points.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. We’ll be back with more soon.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today, we talk to Clive Dickens, one of media’s innovators, about what he’ll be doing next.

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Clive Dickens unveils his plans for Meliora, something that’s a little more than a typical media consultancy

After some big digital roles at Southern Cross Austereo, Seven West Media and Optus, Clive Dickens launching a media advisory service seems a logical next step. Particularly when you factor in some big radio jobs in the UK along with proximity to some successful audio startups.

But Meliora appears to be a little more than your typical one-person, stay-occupied-until-something-else-comes-up advisory.

Dickens says that he’s recurited another five partners to eventually join the business, and in the meantime identified another 10 “associates” to fill the gap in the mean time.

He also plans an investment arm which will focus on startups, and additionally a creative IP fund to put money behind interesting creators.

Dickens expands on his plans in the podcast interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

He says: “They're not just investments. They're partners. The significant number are in the AI space. And we want to bring and leverage some of those products and services to our clients as well to help them unlock that AI value.”

The conversation also touches on his plans around media equity - working with media companies to offer distressed inventory in exchange for stakes in busiensses that need to build their profile. It was a model he successfully applied on behalf of Seven West Media with Airtasker.

And he says that his plan to invest in creative work is in part at least a response to the disruption being caused by generative AI. “In a world where there's going to be less traditional jobs because of gen AI, we wanted to invest in jobs that we believe only humans will be able to do.”

More from Mumbrella…

Getting ahead and the importance of progress to brands
Brittany Higgins joins Third Hemisphere
Free TV chair Greg Hywood steps down
Is the PR industry still a great place to work?

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your evening. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade, recorded earlier today live on stage at Mumbrella360.

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You also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

Radio salaries; the rise of LinkedIn video, Google’s AI video magic and the Mumbrella360 origin story

Today’s podcast was recorded live on stage at Mumbrella360 this afternoon.

In a panel anchored by Abe’s Audio’s Abe Udy, editorial director Hal Crawford, head of curation Cat McGinn and Tim Burrowes were joined by Genero marketer Christie Poulos.

We chewed over highlights from Mumbrella360 including creator Rob Mayhew’s assertion that LinkedIn and YouTube provide the greatest opportunity for B2B video creators. We also discussed this week’s ranking of radio salaries, the impact of Google’s new video generation offering Veo 3, and the development of Mumbrella360 over the last 14 years.

More from the Mumbrella departure lounge…

David Droga steps down as Accenture Song CEO
Justin Graham to step down as APAC CEO of M+C Saatchi Group
Coles' chief customer officer Amanda McVay to depart amid overhaul

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. Time to leave you to your afternoon. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s Unmade podcast was recorded at last month’s AI conference HumAIn, with a panel of practitioners exploring the evolving role of AI chatbots in media and marketing, highlighting the wide spectrum from chatbots as utility, and chatbots as personality.

Today is a good day to upgrade to a paid membership of Unmade. Your annual membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including our retail media conference REmade (September 23), Unlock (October), and Compass (across November)
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Upgrade today.

As a member of the Unmade community you have unlocked exclusive ticket savings to attend Mumbrella360, taking place at Carriageworks Sydney next week, May 27-29.

Simply enter code 20UNMADE360 to save 20% on any ticket type, whether that's the all-access pass or the 'conference only' two-day pass.

From sludge to snark: the divide between form and function in AI chatbots

Cat McGinn, curator of HumAIn, writes:

With generative AI finally giving brands the opportunity to roll out chatbots that work, we tackled the topic at HumAIn.

The discussion features Foxtel’s head of marketing operations and strategic programs Aaron Mitchie, Bastion’s AI consultant Shaun Davies, columnist and strategist at Agency C, Parnell Palme McGuinness, and creative director Emma Barbato.

McGuinness and Davies discussed the development of “Yell At Parnell”, a chatbot trained on McGuinness’s published columns, and designed to replicate her editorial tone and views. The aim was to extend engagement beyond the limitations of comment sections and to experiment with scaling an opinion columnist’s voice.

Davies noted that prompt engineering required over 4,000 words to capture not only factual grounding but also the columnist’s personality, including humour, tone, and political perspectives.

“There is a desperate desire to engage, and this is another opportunity for people to engage. I think that they would also like that opportunity to be supported by the media outlets they're engaging with; I think that it would reverse in some degree the decline in users,” said McGuinness, pointing to closed comments as a missed opportunity for newsrooms.

Creative director Emma Barbato took it further, introducing Bruce Ryder, Australia’s first fictional AI celebrity, a 1970s larrikin launched as a synthetic brand ambassador (see video below). Audiences bought into Bruce rather than the product: “The intrigue was the storytelling, and him as the product,” she said. Barbato highlighted the creative opportunities available to brands when working with immersive, character-led AI tools, particularly in environments unconstrained by conventional briefs.

In contrast, Foxtel’s Aaron Mitchie outlined a strictly functional approach. His team is rolling out a bot to eliminate internal admin, trained on corporate policies. “We’re purposely trying to be boring,” he said. “The idea is eventually everyone's going to get back a day in their week back from admin.”

The panel also raised questions around the ethics of disclosure with users, synthetic identities, emotional attachment to bots, and the future role of anthropomorphised AI in consumer engagement.

Barbato ended the panel with a rallying cry for the creative industries, saying,

“For the first time in my time in the creative arts, we have no hierarchy of anyone being better. We have zero gatekeepers, and it has attracted a brand new creative. And that's what I'm the most excited about: the community that is coming together. I don't know how long we've got. But right now, it’s a garden of Eden with no weeds.”

More from Mumbrella…

Mumbrellacast: ABC, SBS and the gender pay gaps data; inside outdoor media; marketers and Google’s AI Mode; Resolution Digital’s new chapter
SBS beats ABC as gender pay gaps revealed
Catalano slams SCA activist investor over vote meddling
Tropfest organisers hint at ‘epic comeback’
Google launches AI Mode, marketers ponder impact
M+C Saatchi CEO Michael McEwan joins Droga5 Melbourne

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back in your inbox tomorrow or on your podcatcher next week.

Adios amigos,

Cat McGinn

Curator - HumAIn

cat@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. In today’s edition of The Unmakers we talk to creative legend Chas Bayfield about his new venture 21 Madison, fixing the mistakes made by AI. Plus, Seven West Media shares continue their surge on the Unmade Index

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You also get access to our paywalled archive.

Upgrade today.

Introducing 21 Madison: Fixing ads knocked up in Canva by the business owner’s talented niece

In today’s audio-led edition of Unmade, we talk to an adland legend who quietly slipped into Australia under cover of Covid and now does global work from his home in Hobart.

Bayfield has a world-beating portfolio. His work is still instantly recognisable to anybody who grew up in the UK. Blackcurrant Tango’s 1996 90-second epic, ‘St George’ won most major advertising awards.

Now a freelance creative, Bayfield lives in Tasmania with most of his work for overseas brands.

This month Bayfield has launched a new business, 21 Madison. Recognising the fact that AI and tools such as Canva have made it possible for anyone to create an ad, even if they lack the skills to write a message that sells, Bayfield aims to overlay his human talents onto the machinery.

In the podcast interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Bayfield describes his target market as those who cannot afford to commission an ad agency: “It's people who, for whatever reason, are self-generating their advertising. Potentially AI, potentially Canva. It might just be that they've got a talented niece or nephews, knocked something up in their year seven graphics class. Largely, I'm guessing it's going to be AI.”

Bayfield sees 21 Madison’s role as stepping in to turn the copy into something that sells. Recognising that these are not the big budget players, he adds: “These are people who are going to be putting ads out on Facebook and Instagram.”

According to the 21 Madison website, prices start from a $79 “quick fix” to $999 per month for a virtual creative director helping create eight ads per month.

Bayfield says 21 Madison is his attempt to make the best of the disruption being wrought by the likes of ChatGPT:

“We can sit around and shake our fists at the system and the way it is, a bit like blacksmiths in the early 1900s, just angry at cars. And where does that get you?

“So you have to work out, what can I do to move it on? I've never been one just to sit back and go, ‘this is always going to be the same forever.’”

During the interview, Bayfield also tackles the most controversial period in his career, when he and a colleague won a sex discrimination claim against ad agency JWT alleging that they lost their roles because the agency wanted to lose its reputation as “a boys club”.

Despite winning the case, Bayfield suffered a brutal social media backlash.

He reveals: “The backlash that came afterwards was off the scale.

And I got a monstrous amount of social media hatred and people telling me that I wasn't going to work. And I certainly wasn't going to work in Australia.

“I won a works tribunal. It was all I had done.

“It was nasty. That was pretty tough. Especially as I've always felt that I've been the one looking at what's next in advertising. To be cast as this washed up dinosaur was horrible.”

Seven extends its ASX charge

Seven West Media continued its charge on the Unmade Index, rising another 6.9% yesterday to a market capitalisation of $247m. The stock has now risen by more than 10% over the last week. However, in the bigger picture the stock is still trading close to a historic low.

Meanwhile it was a down day for the two major audio stocks with Southern Cross Austereo losing 5.9% and ARN Media losing 1.9%.

The Unmade Index, which tracks the performance of media and marketing stocks, lost 0.6% to land on 551.5 points.

More from Mumbrella…

Stop calling us influencers, says influencer
GroupM workforce braces for major restructure impacts
AI is no longer a disruptor, it’s part of the process: D&AD report
CNN and Fox take on their own legacies with new streaming services
SBS goes fully nude in streaker ad campaign

Time to leave you to your Friday.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we hear from Getty Images’ global creative boss Rebecca Swift, on the impact and risk of AI on creative industries.

Today is a good day to upgrade to a paid membership of Unmade. Your annual membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including tomorrow’s AI conference HumAIn (May 6), REmade (September 23), Unlock (October), and Compass (across November)

Member-only content and our paywalled archives;

Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Upgrade today.

‘Business loves bargains’: Rebecca Swift on how generative AI could undermine creativity and consumer confidence

The growing wave of low-quality, mass-generated imagery is threatening both brand trust and the long-term viability of creative industries, warns Rebecca Swift, senior vice president of creative at Getty Images. Dr Swift warns that what she terms “AI slop”is on the rise.

In the podcast conversation with Unmade’s Cat McGinn, Swift said the deluge of generative content risks homogenising brand expression, eroding legal safety, and discouraging future talent from entering the creative workforce.

“AI slop” refers to the easily created, highly distributed output from generative AI tools, which is often divorced from original intent, training data transparency, or creative integrity. While acknowledging that the issue predates AI, Swift argued that the explosion in tools has made the problem more visible—and more dangerous.

Swift said Getty has deliberately kept its content library free from AI-generated assets to ensure provenance, avoid contamination of training sets, and protect creator rights.

“It would be easy to follow the money. But we chose to follow our values.”

She also warned that some large models are now training on content that is itself AI-generated, compounding quality and IP risks.

“For global brands, there’s no guarantee that marketers in different regions aren’t using content that breaches trademarks or contains copyrighted elements,” Swift said. “There are real legal and reputational implications.”

Consumer trust is also on the line. Getty’s research shows that while AI-generated content has become harder for the average consumer to spot, the appetite for disclosure has increased. More than 90% of survey respondents said they want to know when an image is AI-generated.

“We’re seeing consumers approach images with a default mindset of distrust,” Swift said. “That has implications not just for media, but for any brand that trades on authenticity.”

Unmade’s AI conference for media and marketing, humAIn, takes place tomorrow. Tickets are still available.

Correction: Dr Swift refers to Getty’s consumer research as beginning in 2003; the research began in 2023.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

See you at HumAIn - or in your inbox - tomorrow.

Have a lovely day,

Cat McGinn

Curator - HumAIn

cat@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we hear from adland satirist Rob Mayhew about making it in the creator economy, why he loves TikTok and LinkedIn, and how Facebook is just too greedy.

Today is a good day to upgrade to a paid membership of Unmade. Your annual membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (May 6), REmade (September 23), Unlock (October), and Compass (across November)

Member-only content and our paywalled archives;

Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Upgrade today.

‘We need a new playbook’ - Rob Mayhew on how agencies are failing to make the most of the creator economy

In the extremely niche specialty of advertising industry satirist, Rob Mayhew is the leading light.

The agency creative turned TikTok and LinkedIn creator has amassed a dedicated following in the English-speaking marketing world.

Mayhew started his career in the UK in a below the line agency, before cutting his teeth as a social media strategist. He found his place as a content maker during Covid lockdowns by satirising adland and agency culture.

He now mainly works with B2B brands including Adobe, WeTransfer and Sitecore looking to tap into his burgeoning followings particularly on TikTok and LinkedIn.

In the podcast conversation with Tim Burrowes, Mayhew discusses his forthcoming keynote at next month’s Mumbrella360, what marketers are getting wrong when they jump on social media trends, and why he is no fan of Facebook.

He explains: “I'm a huge fan of TikTok. It's my favorite platform, closely followed by LinkedIn and then YouTube. Meta, Instagram, I'm kind of not really a fan of… I just feel like they're greedy.”

Mumbrella360 is from May 27-29. Find out more here.

Time to leave you to your day. Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

If you’d like more from me in your ears, last night’s edition of the Mumbrellacast is now in your favorite podcatcher. Hal Crawford and I discuss Facebook’s ghost stores; Ben Shepherd’s proposed walled garden for premium advertising; and Albo’s love of newspapers.

I’ll be back on Saturday with Best of the Week

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Mumbrella + Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an end-of-week update from Unmade.

In today’s audio-led post we share the panel discussion from the launch of the Edelman Trust Barometer. And further down on the Unmade Index, three minnows see price jumps while Enero slumps some more.

Unmade’s AI event for the media and marketing industry, HumAIn, is coming fast. Our annual paying members are entitled to a free ticket. It’s just one of the benefits of a paying membership. Upgrade today.

‘Is it fragmented? Absolutely. Is it going to improve? I can’t see it.’

In today’s podcast we share the panel discussion that accompanied the launch of the Edelman Trust Barometer.

In a key statistic, of the four key Australian public institutions surveyed, public trust in media is the worst, with just 37% now saying they trusted the media. That was behind government (47%), business (54%) and non-governmental organisations (56%).

The podcast features the event’s introduction from Tom Robinson, CEO of Edelman Australia, ahead of the panel led by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

The discussion featured:

Terry Flew, Professor of Digital Communication and Culture, The University of Sydney and Co-Director, Centre for AI, Trust and Governance;
Kim Portrate, previously CEO of industry body Think TV;
Gen Z strategist Milly Bannister, founder and CEO of the ALLKND charity focusing on mental health for young Australians;
Jared Mondschein, Director of Research at the United States Studies Centre.

The questions tackled included the challenges to societal cohesion as trust in institutions fades, geopolitical headwinds, and why the next generation is losing trust so badly.

Portrate, who departed Think TV at the end of the year amidst obvious divisions between her TV network stakeholders, told the room: “Is it fragmented? Absolutely. Is it going to improve? I can’t see it. Not in the current environment and not when you’ve got the competitive pressure and don’t abide by any of the legislation that protects the population at large.”

Read more on the barometer:

A good day for the little guys of the Unmade Index

Three of the smaller stocks on the Unmade Index enjoyed sources in their price yesterday, although none of them released new updates to the market.

Out of home advertising company Motio saw its share price jump by 18.5%, taking it up to a market capitalisation of $8m. Boss Adam Cadwallader is due to give a trading update on Tuesday.

Sports Entertainment Group, owner of radio network SEN, rose by 13.6% to a $70m market cap. And Pureprofile rose 9.1% to a $47m market cap.

Enero Group, owner of agencies including BMF and Hotwire, continued to tank, with the price losing another 4.3% to what is its lowest point in almost a decade.

The Unmade Index, which looks at the movements of all the locally listed media and marketing companies, ended the day in equilibrium, remaining on 526.2 points.

Declaration of interest: My travel and accommodation to take part in the Trust Barometer event were covered by Edelman.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to your Friday. We’ll be back with Best of the Week tomorrow. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio edition from Unmade.

Today: humAIn curator Cat McGinn talks to Jodie Sangster about her new co-venture aimed at upskilling CMOs with AI, the Australian Centre for AI in Marketing, and what’s stopping marketers from getting on board with AI transformation.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (6 May 2025), REmade (23 Sept), Unlock (Oct 2025), and Compass Australia (Nov 2025);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Are marketers being left behind on their AI journeys?

A new industry initiative, the Australian Centre for AI in Marketing, snappily abbreviated to ACAM, has been launched by four senior marketing leaders, including former ADMA CEO and IBM CMO, Jodie Sangster.

In today’s audio-led post, HumAIn curator Cat McGinn sits down with Sangster to find out more about ACAM, its purpose, and whether success means being out of a job for the four founders.

According to Sangster, despite the increasing availability of AI tools and investment in AI infrastructure, most marketers are not ready to implement AI in practice. Common barriers include a lack of time, limited understanding of how to apply the technology, and a general sense of scepticism after marketers have been burnt by years of overhyped digital solutions.

ACAM’s founders claim it has been designed to address these issues by offering education, peer learning, and access to practical tools. Its structure includes a Pioneers Circle—a group of CMOs from a range of industries and AI maturity levels—created to facilitate open sharing of implementation experiences, challenges, and outcomes.

The founders also offer a consultancy arm, but are at pains to distinguish the “for-purpose’ initiative, which Sangster describes as “a calling,” from the for-profit division.

Sangster is clear that ACAM will not act as a policy maker or regulatory body, but will focus on translating evolving frameworks into practical guidance for marketers. “Our role is to help marketers understand how AI applies to their work and how to use it responsibly,” she said.

Sangster doesn’t see the risk of ACAM putting itself out of business as an imminent threat.

“We’re still at the very start of AI adoption,” she says. “This is about making sure marketers don’t get left behind.”

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Good luck at tonight’s CommsCon Awards, for those who are in the running.

We’ll be back with more soon.

Have a lovely evening.

Cat McGinn

Head of Curated Content - Unmade

cat@unmade.media

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Welcome to a midweek update from Unmade, on the morning after News Corp’s main marketing-industry focused event of the year, D_Coded. Yesterday’s big announcement was Tubi. Two months after announcing the sale of Foxtel, News Corp is back in the TV business.

Also today, Enero’s sinking share price hits the lowest point in more than a decade.

News Corp Australia gets back into TV with Tubi

For a while now, I’ve been puzzled by Tubi.

It’s the biggest asset in the extended News Corp universe not to have a presence in Australia. In the US, Tubi is a big deal. Its share of total TV viewing is nearly 2% and it’s bigger than Peacock, Paramount+ and Max. In some quarters it’s been bigger than Disney+.

Actually, it’s not entirely true to say that Tubi has not had a presence in Australia. Tubi has been here all along and repped by Foxtel Media. But it didn’t receive much love, even as it built towards 1.3m active monthly users locally.

When I interviewed Foxtel boss Patrick Delany this time last year, I told him I was surprised they were not doing more with Tubi.

At the time, Delany argued that the reason for Tubi’s success in the US is the fact that it’s entirely free to its audience. While Australia’s free to air networks are available over the airwaves, US viewers are used to paying for everything they watch via cable. So Tubi was a bigger point of difference, he argued.

However, I suspect that was not the only reason. With Foxtel about to pass into the ownership of DAZN, Tubi now represents News Corp’s seat back at the table of television. It didn’t make sense for News Corp to go hard until the Foxtel deal was done.

Tubi has a straightforward business model. There’s no paid membership tier. It’s pureplay FAST - free ad-supported streaming TV.

That puts Tubi in the same space as 7plus, 9now, Tenplay, along with global players like Paramount’s Pluto TV. And of course, with the FAST services being offered by the connected TV providers.

Incidentally, Tubi lives within the other half of the Murdoch empire, Fox Corp. News Corp is effectively a local rep.

In today’s podcast I interview News Corp’s executive chairman Michael Miller. He pushes back against my assumption that Tubi lacks premium content. And while it’s true that Tubi has a deep archive, a look at the home page this morning reminds me of the experience of standing in the discount section of my local video store. They looked like blockbusters, but I just hadn’t heard of them.

(Titanic 2, anyone? Jack’s back… and he’s got a score to settle about the whole floating door episode.)

Tubi’s secret weapon is the world’s favourite price point: free. There are plenty of Australians who can’t or won’t afford to pay for their streaming.

And its not-so-secret weapon is the marketing firepower of News Corp. Would Kayo or Binge have grown without the company’s cross promotion?

In my conversation with Miller, he places Tubi as a “top three or four” marketing priority for the year.

And News Corp is backing the push with an aggressive price point - a launch price of a $15cpm.

Considering that’s likely to be big brand advertising on the main lounge room screen, that’s an aggressive price.

By the way, in case you can’t read the small print on the screen behind sales boss Barrett in the photo above, the price is for campaigns with a minimum spend of $20,000, running before June 30. And “independent measurement unavailable”.

The rest of today’s conversation with Miller spans the other announcements around D_Coded, including marketer-friendly expansions of its Intent Connect planning system, and the company’s continuing efforts to make the concept of engaged reach a thing.

Miller also makes it clear that News Corp still views the coming election and US trade war concerns as a delay, not an end to the News Media Bargaining Code framework. “We have been patient,” he says.

Unmade Index fights off Trumpcession fears as Enero sinks to decade-long low

Despite an early selloff triggered by global concerns over a looming Trumpcession, the Unmade Index bounced back in later trading yesterday to finish flat.

The biggest local weight on the Unmade Index, Nine, was lifted by its majority-owned real estate platform Domain. Nine was up by 1.3%, while Domain rose 1.8%.

ARN Media was up by 4.9%, taking it back above a $200m market capitalisation.

Among stocks moving in the other direction, print and marketing group IVE lost 8.6%, while Seven West Media lost 3.2% to land on its lowest point since January. Southern Cross Austereo was down by 3.6%.

Enero Group, owner of ad agency BMF among others, slumped by 6.7% to land on its lowest share price in more than a decade.

The Unmade Index ticked up by a fraction, rising by 0.09% to land on 551.2 points.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

We’ll be back with more soon

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to a Best of the Day wrap from Unmade.

Today: We share the highlights from Compass Auckland, Ooh Media finally discovers some momentum, and big moves on the Unmade Index.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (6 May), REmade (23 September), Unlock, and Compass (November), all returning in 2025.
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

‘Embrace AI, or face an extinction-level event’

The final episode of the 2024-25 series of Compass rolled into Auckland last week.

The audience at the iHeart Lounge heard from Matt Martel, managing editor for audience and platforms at the New Zealand Herald, Jo Mitchell, CMO of The Warehouse Group; Paul Pritchard, group CEO of Overdose, and Angela Watson, CEO of Colenso BBDO on some of the key topics getting adland out of bed and keeping it awake at night.

The topics ranged from the impact of last year’s closure of Newshub to the disruption being wrought by AI, to whether it’s time for marketers to dial back on their platform spend.

Pritchard told the audience that the biggest challenge he saw the industry face last year was “lack of control”. He added: “I felt like things happened to us, not because of us.”

According to Martel, the closure of Newshub should be taken as a signal for action. “It was a strong and important part of New Zealand media. It's now gone.

“We need to act. Because if we don't act, we can see the train that's coming down the tracks at us.

“The problem is not the quality of what we do, it's the monetisation of what we do. If we don't change what we do now, if we don't embrace AI, if we don't embrace different ways of doing what we've always done, then there will be an extinction-level event for everyone in this room in ten years, if not sooner.”

And Pritchard urged a rethink for where the industry spends its marketing budgets: “We spent a lot of time letting international technology players come to every market and sell, sell, sell at really low costs. And that disrupted the media. It challenged the content and the quality of that content. And then when they disrupted it, they decided to put the prices up.

“And it's a pretty simple economic environment that we're all facing. The thing we can do to counter it is we can own our own content. We can own our own customer.

“We decided that it was just better to throw money at something that continually worked, right? Those metrics of return on ad spend and cost of customer acquisition -they were really attractive for a long time.

“Now they're less attractive, but everyone's hooked on it. So maybe we need to go cold turkey for a little bit.”

The event was organised by Unmade with the support of NZME, Lumo and Scentre Group’s BrandSpace.

Ooh Media’s turnaround begins

Ooh Media will likely soon make it official with its acting chief revenue officer Mark Fairhurst after his first two months in the chair sparked a turnaround in the company’s sales trajectory.

The emergency appointment of Fairhurst, previously executive general manager of QMS, came in December following the exit of chief revenue officer Paul Sigaloff after just 19 months.

In its full-year results released this morning, Ooh Media’s revenue and profits were virtually flat for the year, up by 0.3% to $635.6m and 3% to $287m respectively

Ooh Media’s 2023 and 2024 results were almost identical. However the company’s momentum entering the first quarter has radically improved

Ooh Media is on track to bring in 14% more revenue in the current quarter compared to the same time last year.

CEO Cathy O’Connor again acknowledged that Ooh Media’s sales operation has been slow and hard to deal with. She told today’s analysts’ call: “We heard from the market that we were slow to respond.”

Ooh Media’s said its new offering Reo - which assists mid-tier retailers enter the retail media space by outsourcing sales operations and assisting with the digital side - is also picking up momentum. Newly announced clients include Officeworks, Petbarn, and Australia Post, with others in the pipeline.

Unmade Index buoyed by Ooh Media and IVE Group results

Ooh Media’s improved performance saw it lock in a hefty 15.6% jump in market capitalisation during an action-packed day on the Unmade Index.

IVE Group, which also reported solid results today, rose by 6.4% while Seven West Media gained 2.9%.

Meanwhile, Nine lost 5.8% as the market continued to digest news of CoStar’s bid to buy its majority-owned real estate platform Domain.

As a result of the decline of Nine - the biggest weighted stock - the Unmade Index sank by 0.3% to 560.6 points.

Best of the Day: News winners; Clems loser; Slater & Gordon’s struggles

ABC back at the top

ABC News moved back past News Corp’s news.com.au as the site with the biggest audience. According to Ipsos Iris, the ABC’s monthly audience grew to 12.5m in January, ahead of news.com.au which lost 3.4% to land on 11.8m.

Another Omnicom ad restructure

Dani Bassil became the latest Clemenger Group CEO to be ousted after failing to recapture the creative brand’s glories of previous decades. Omnicom announced that Clemenger, Traffik and CHEP Network will all be folded into the Clems brand. Under chief creative officer Ant Keogh, who departed in 2017, and CEO Peter Biggs, who left in 2014, Clemenger Melbourne was regularly the world’s most awarded agency.

Too little, too Slater

Law firm Slater & Gordon was criticised for failing to adequately handle a PR crisis after a critical all-staff email leaked the salary details of employees along with criticism of management.

Meanwhile IVF clinic Genea was tonight dealing with an even bigger PR crisis after revealing that a data leak has seen hackers seize highly personal patient details.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your evening.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow. Have a great night.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade + Mumbrella

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade in which we talk to the two key players behind Publicis Group’s purchase of independent Media agency Atomic 212.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including Compass Auckland (February 18), HumAIn (May 6), REmade (September 23), Unlock (October), and the Compass Australia series (throughout November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Capabilities and conflict: Why Publicis bought Atomic 212

Last week’s news that Australia’s biggest media agency Atomic 212 had been sold was not a huge surprise. The agency had been rumoured to be considering offers for some time.

What was a little more surprising though was the buyer. Despite rumours that consultancy Accenture was in the frame, holding company Publicis Group emerged as the winner.

It ran counter to the trend of holdcos in retreat and consolidating their number of agency brands.

In today’s audio-led conversation, Atomic 212 chairman Barry O’Brien and Publicis Group’s ANZ CEO Michael Rebelo discuss with Tim Burrowes the rationale for the deal.

O’Brien acknowledges the ups and downs of the agency’s journey, including when Atomic’s client, retail chain Dick Smith went into administration, leaving its agency potentially owing media companies millions of dollars.

“When we first kicked off, Dick Smith went belly up and left $400-odd million of debt right around Australia.

“As a young agency, we were left with a considerable amount of that. That was a pretty dark time.”

The agency also faced a reputation crisis when Mumbrella revealed that former boss Jason Dooris had been cheating in award entries. Dooris eventually left the business. O’Brien says, dryly, “It was not a highlight.”

Meanwhile, Rebelo explains the rationale for the acquisition at a time when many groups are trimming their rosters. Capabilities and client conflict are two of the factors.

When he built a three year plan for his group in 2023, “acquisition of a media agency like Atomic was literally one of our top strategic priorities,” reveals Rebelo.

“What we were looking at with Atomic was how can we supercharge what we've already got? What we like to curate and cultivate in the group are specialized weapons in terms of the agencies in how they can help our clients solve their marketing problems. And Atomic represented an independent agency with really sophisticated capabilities.”

Rebelo, insists that unlike previous acquisition Match, which is these days folded in to Spark Foundry, Atomic will remain as its own brand. “Conflict and managing conflict is still a big part of the market and the industry. So we are fortunate to have those independent brands that can manage different agencies across the verticals. Having another media brand to take on and help us manage that is certainly a benefit to this.”

Time to leave you to your Monday. Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with more soon.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade, taking in the Melbourne edition of Compass. And below, a down day on the Unmade Index.

You should be at next year’s Compass. If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the day to make a decision. If you sign up for an annual membership before the end of today you’ll get a $50 gift voucher.

Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025.
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

‘We should be prepared for rage’ - Compass Melbourne on the rise of activism

The final stop on Unmade’s six-state Compass tour of Australia was Victoria, for a feisty conversation around the state of the industry, the Campaign Brief imbroglio and the state of the Melbourne radio wars.

Today’s podcast features highlights. The speakers were Gold’s breakfast host Christian O'Connell, NAB’s CMO Thomas Dobson, CHEP’s executive strategy director Nomfundo Msomi, and Kimberlee Wells, CEO of TBWA.

As has been the case in several states, the topic of Campaign Brief’s all-male coverage of the creative industry was nominated as the industry’s worst moment of the year. Wells told the audience: “The industry's biggest loss, controversial, I know, is Campaign Brief.”

In October the publication experienced a fierce backlash after publishing a review on Australia and New Zealand’s top creative talent featuring 20 men and no women. It triggered a debate about the masthead’s behaviour over many years.

Many agency groups took the decision to stop submitting their work for publication on the Campaign Brief blog. The controversy appears to have given momentum to the local operation of Little Black Book to fill some of the void.

Wells, also a board member of industry association the Advertising Council, went on: “And it is not because of the changes that are being made, but I think there's a lot of questions being asked at the moment around what becomes the central dialogue for creativity in the industry.

“And it's something that I know we're certainly grappling with at the Ad Council. So there are a lot of changes that needed to be made, but we need to make sure as a result of that, we're not actually losing creativity and a space for creativity to be elevated and to be celebrated across the board.”

Msomi added: “As far as our biggest gain, it's the opportunity to have difficult conversations as an industry. So we've been talking about representation and opportunities for women, minorities, people from different ethnic groups, diversity within our industry.

“I'm really hoping that after we go away for the two mandatory weeks where Australia shuts down, that we come back with that same fervor in place.

“This is an opportunity. It's uncomfortable for some people, and for others, it is exhausting. We've gained the chance to really talk and to be vulnerable if we want to save the industry.

“We've lost, and we continue to lose women. Let's acknowledge that it's happening under our watch. But more than just losing women, I think we're losing the trust of women as an industry to make change.”

On the topic of advertising creativity, Melbourne was another edition of Compass where panellists nominated Telstra’s work this year as a plus for the industry. Msomi told the room: “I'm going to take the biggest win as being Telstra. I think there's a lot of lessons in that for all of us around the importance of brand, the importance of craft the importance of getting back to creativity - and the importance of not listening to everyone in your organization who wants to have a point of view on the work, but actually backing your own gut.”

Melbourne has also been home to the biggest radio story of the year - ARN Media’s decision to network the Sydney-based The Kyle & Jackie O Show into the city on Kiis. While maintaining its lead in Sydney, the show has failed to find an audience in Melbourne.

ARN stablemate O’Connell, whose own show on Gold has regularly topped the FM ratings, argued that while the battle has been great for drawing attention to radio, some stations have been wasting money on short term promotions rather than focusing on the quality of their shows. He said: “It's just really interesting - people are talking about it. Breakfast radio still matters to people which I think is really great for my industry.

“The loss for the industry is how a lot of the other shows I go up against are chucking so much money at buying listeners - big, noisy cash giveaways. I understand why they do that; I've never done that - I think it's about deepening the connection you have with the audience. I think it's transactional and I think actually it's hurting radio.

“The big noisy cash giveaways to me is dumb, moronic radio.”

The panel also tackled the rise of retail media (Dobson was sceptical); rebuilding business confidence in a tough economy, the next wave of agency consolidations, and predictions of a rise in consumer activism.

In prescient comments which she made before the assassination of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thomson in New York, Msomi warned: “I think we should be prepared for rage. I think the bubbling under, and now bubbling over, of the real palpable rage that we feel in our industry and in our society, I think it's not going to die down.

“With anger comes activism, and with activism comes change.

“There's this misnomer that people who are activists and people who are trying to change things are always upset and that their anger is not productive. But that's how you get International Women's Day, that's how you get Black History Month, from organizing and from actioning that rage into something more.”

The next stop for Unmade’s Compass roadshow is Auckland on Tuesday February 18, at NZME’s iHeart Lounge on Graham Street. Tickets are on sale now.

How Unmade’s 2024 Compass tour has unfolded:

Unmade Index sinks

The Unmade Index retreated by 0.48% yesterday, to land on 431.7 points.

Among the worst performers was Nine’s real estate platform Domain, which lost 1.2% yesterday. Domain’s market capitalisation has sagged by 17% since the ousting of CEO Jason Pellegrino two months ago

Audio stocks Southern Cross Austereo and ARN Media both went backwards yesterday, by 0.9% and 0.7% respectively.

Ooh Media beat the wider trend, rising by 1.7%

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today: Hugh Marks firms up for the ABC as Matt Stanton makes an inside run on Nine; Plus, what we learned this year, and what we’re expecting in 2025.

This is the perfect time to upgrade your Unmade membership

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025;
Members-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Do it before the end of next week, and we’ll give you a $50 gift voucher of your choice too. Upgrade today.

Hugh Marks for the ABC?; Matt Stanton tightens grip on Nine; James Manning returns; and our 2025 predictions

The Australian seems confident Hugh Marks is about to be named managing director of the ABC. As its Media Diary column puts it today: “Here’s one rumour that just won’t go away, and we reckon it’s true: Hugh Marks will be the new managing director of the ABC. As far as media rumours go, we’re almost certain it’s rolled, gold, wheat.”

Marks was a transformational boss for Nine, overseeing its evolution from a TV network to Australia’s largest media company via the takeover of Fairfax Media. In the podcast we discuss whether there’s room in the ABC management for both Kim Williams as chair and Marks as MD.

Also today: we discuss acting Nine CEO Matt Stanton’s tightening grip on the role, and the return of former Mediaweek owner James Manning to media after a long absence of 17 days.

We look back on a year of AI ubiquity and a media downturn. And in our predictions we talk about taming the platforms, the return of jingles, and the rise of AI agents.

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design, and podcast production. The cicadas were not their fault.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s episode of the Unmade podcast features the fifth stop on our Compass tour, when we visited Adelaide. Plus, further down, the Unmade Index sinks further while Vinyl Group buys Concrete Playground.

You should be at next year’s Compass. If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, why not do it today? Your annual membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.
PLUS: If you subscribe before the end of next week, you’ll also receive a $50 gift voucher of your choice

“A big disappointment” to cancel Campaign Brief?; Uncredentialled CMOs; and too many client pitches

Unmade’s Compass roadshow rolled into Adelaide last month for a lively discussion on the big industry topics.

Our speakers were:

Taylor Martin, chair of the Adelaide Advertising and Design Club Awards, and GM of Simple integrated marketing. She’s also on the committee of She Creates championing women working in the communications industry here in Adelaide

David Penberthy, co-presenter of 5AA’s Breakfast with David & Will and News Corp columnist .

Erik de Roos, Executive Director of Marketing for South Australian Tourism Commission.

And Jamie Scott, Managing Director, of Showpony and former AADC co-president.

Among the debate points, Taylor Martin flagged the controversy over Campaign Brief - which was slated for only featuring men in its rundown of creative talent - as the industry’s loss of the year.

But Jamie Scott argued that the debate that followed was a lost opportunity for the industry to commit to real change. He added: “When Campaign Brief apologised and said they would commit to change, they were still cancelled by half the industry. So the very behaviours the industry was looking for was then punished. People said ‘Oh we’re going to cancel our subscription anyway’. So that was a big disappointment.”

Meanwhile, Erik de Roos called out the rise of uncredentialled marketers calling themselves ”chief marketing officer”.

“I could start a company tomorrow and hire some kid from the street and call them chief marketing officer, and that’s fine. It’s a conversation we need to be having as an industry.”

Unmade Index takes another hit

The Unmade Index had a second day of triple basis point decline on Wednesday, losing another 1.62% to land on 438.7 points.

Amongst the larger stocks, Ooh Media had the worst of it, losing 3.3% despite the good news that it has won a stay of execution on its Auckland Transport contract, which expires on December 31. Auckland Transport has decided to restart the tender process, meaning the contract, which Ooh Media was likely to either lose or renew on much less profitable terms, will be extended.

Meanwhile Nine is once again trading below a $2bn market capitalisation.

As Unmade was about to go out of the door, Vinyl Group announced it had agreed to buy Concrete Playground for $3.5m in cash and $1.5m in shares. It said Concrete Playground had made EBITDA profits for the year of $1.5m on $4m turnover. Concrete Playground founder Rich Fogarty will leave the business.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. (Special thanks to Team Abe’s for doing an amazing editing job on cleaning up our back-up recording)

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today: We analyse the big news that Omnicom is set to take over Interpublic Group in a giant deal which would remake the advertising industry; Should Nine sell its radio stations?; and is the government about to finally make up its mind about designating Meta?

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025.
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Here comes Intercom

News broke last night of a deal which would remake the agency landscape. Omnicom is negotiating a takeover of Interpublic. It would create a new industry leader. We consider the global and local implications, and ask whetehr it will change the timeline for the replacement of Omnicom Media Group’s outgoing CEO Peter Horgan.

Also today, we discuss whether Nine should sell its radio network.

And are we finally going to see movement from the government on its decision whether to designate Facebook owner Meta under the News Media Bargaining Code.

Further reading:

Wall Street Journal: Advertising Firms Omnicom and Interpublic Nearing Merger That Would Reshape Industry
Madison & Wall: Omnicom-Interpublic M&A Report: Analysis and Considerations
Mi3: Kristiaan Kroon firming as successor to Omnicom Media Group CEO Peter Horgan
Unmade: The fateful eight: How Publicis, WPP, Omnicom, Dentsu, Havas, IPG, S4 Capital and Enero rank
Australian Financial Review: Exits, cuts and Smooth FM: Nine mulls future of 2GB, 3AW, 4BC and 6PR
The Australian: D-day on the horizon for Meta: Stephen Jones set to make a call on news media bargaining code
Capital Brief: Google renews news deal with Country Press Australia
Unmade: How Google bought the silence of Australia’s media establishment

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week.

We’ll be back with more on Wednesday.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s episode of the Unmade podcast features the fourth stop on our Compass tour, when we visited Perth. Plus, further down, bad news on the economy tanks the Unmade Index.

You should be at next year’s Compass. If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, why not do it today? Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Taxing the platforms, shaking Perth out of creative complacency, and the ‘b**t’ about what it really takes

The fourth stop on Unmade’s end of year Compass tour took the team to Perth, for an entertaining panel featuring five veterans of the WA media and marketing scene.

Clive Bingwa became MD of Nine Perth six years ago after a media agency career including 303 and IPG Mediabrands. Steve Harris is CEO of Perth’s biggest agency, The Brand Agency, as well as being a board director of the Chamber of Commerce & Industry of WA and of Fremantle Football Club. Taryn Hare is Executive Manager, Brand and Customer Strategy at Bankwest and was previously at 303, and part of the Brand Agency team that launched Bunnings Warehouse into the UK. Meg Coffey is the Founder of State of Social and managing director of digital marketing agency Coffey & Tea. And Amber Martin is the cofounder of the Hypnosis creative agency after stints at Wieden + Kennedy in London, and Host in Singapore.

The conversation ranged from the lessons to be learned from the elites sidelining Donald Trump to what it really takes to succeed in the industry, and the barriers that creates for mothers.

The lessons of the US election

On Trump, Harris - who traveled to the US to watch the election unfold - argued that the media failed to capture some of the nuance. “Trump is grossly misrepresented by the Australian media. I think it's a sport to show the 10-second sound bite where he said something and not show the 30 seconds or the 60 seconds around that. And so I think everyone missed it.”

Hare observed: “The fact that someone with that history is leading the free world is because Harris and her team potentially underestimated the needs of common people and campaigned on things that weren't that relevant Listening and truly understanding customers and what they need is the real lesson here.”

Coffey argued that poor media literacy contributed to the result. She said: “I think media literacy has never been more important, and I think that we've lost track of that.”

Whi is Google getting a free pass?

The debate moved to the topic of Australia’s relationship with social media. Harris pointed out that the negative impacts of social media only moved up the news agenda once Meta had decided to stop paying publishers.

He said: “If you look at the big media war on social media, particularly the big major media companies, it wasn't really an issue until Facebook stopped paying under the Media Bargaining Code. When they were taking several hundred million dollars from Facebook, then it was okay. Well, it wasn't okay, but it wasn't an issue.”

Harris suggested that Google is getting preferential treatment in news coverage of the social damage it contributes to because it still gives money to publishers. He said: “I’m not a big fan of Facebook for a range of reasons, but I just think it's worth noting everything you read is about Facebook. Google's getting a free reign because Google maybe still pays the money towards the media bargaining code.”

He added: “Why don't these companies pay their fair share of tax? We wouldn't need a media bargaining code if they paid proper tax and they were structured correctly.”

Raising the bar on creativity

The dual themes of the economic slowdown and the level of advertising creativity in the Perth market came together after Hare nominated raising the bar as a key topic that needs to be discussed. She said: “The issue that I talk about a lot is how we raise the creative quality in a market like Perth, where there are so many forces working against us.

“It's very small. There are lots of businesses here that are the sole business in their vertical. They don't have to try as hard.”

Harris agreed: “I think Perth is very comfortable. It's been easy to make money. It doesn't matter if you're selling coffee, selling cars, building homes, selling real estate, whatever you do in Perth in the last 15 years, it's an easy, easy economy.

“And we've become a bit lazy.”

The painful truth about finding career success

Meanwhile Harris nominated his own unspoken conversation: “I don't think honest conversations are had about what it takes to be really, really successful. Everyone sits around and talks about your doona day, your mental health day, your right to disconnect.

“And it's all b**t. If you want to be really, really successful, you don't see any Olympic gold medal winner saying, ‘I didn't train because I wanted a doona day’.

“If you want to be really, really successful, you're going to have to make sacrifices, you're going to have to work harder than other people, it's going to hurt, it's going to be painful. There are things that aren't going to be nice but you'll get to be really, really successful. And I just don't think those conversations are had in any sense because they're just politically incorrect and everyone shies away from them.”

Bingwa, agreed, saying” It’s a tough industry, it’s very competitive and there are no short cuts.”

Amber Martin took a different tack, arguing that the industry loses women who become mothers. She said: “An important conversation that we need to have is around how hard this industry can be though when you're a woman and you have a baby and you try and come back into this industry, which does expect you to work really, really hard to reap the rewards.”

She went on: “In our industry we're not seeing very many women at the top despite them making up the bulk of this industry that we work in, and I wonder if that's because we have this culture of ‘you have to work really hard to reap the rewards’ which I agree with, but what does that look like? Is that about presenteeism, is that about being in the office all the time? What can we do to make that an easier transition for women once they've had children?

“It's just too hard to have work-life balance and come back and work in a job like this.

“I get a lot of satisfaction out of my baby, but I get a hell of a lot of satisfaction out of working in advertising as well. I don't want to give it up, but gosh, it's hard.”

Slowing economy drags on Unmade Index

The Unmade Index sank by nearly a full percentage point yesterday as the market digested implications of new numbers indicating slumping gross domestic product growth.

Advertising spend is disproportionately affected by economic performance, and the Unmade Index fell more badly than the wider ASX All Ordinaries which lost 0.3%

Nine fell back below a $2bn market capitalisation after losing 0.8%. Southern Cross Austereo had the worst day on the index, losing 3.7%.

ARN Media moved in the other direction, improving by 3.6%

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. (Special thanks to Team Abe’s for cleaning up what was poor audio recorded at the venue.)

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition, the government helps the ACCC muscle up against the platforms as Meta belatedly acts on scammy celeb ads; The Monkeys nostalgia as they rebrand to Droga5; acting on AI content kleptomania; and the end of the TV ratings year, but did anybody notice?

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025.
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

It turns out Meta thinks it can do something about scam celebrity ads after all

In today’s conversation: the government says it will give the ACCC more powers to take on the platforms; a fortnight after promises of a duty of care law, Meta discovers that there is more it can do about scam ads on its platform after all; Disrupt Radio makes its monthly pledge that more funding is on the way; Seven claims victory in the annual TV ratings.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Labor targets Meta, Apple, Amazon and Google with tough new rules
The Australian: Labor grants ACCC new powers to crack down on digital platforms
Unmade: End of term, end of government?
The Guardian: Meta to force financial advertisers to be verified in bid to prevent celebrity scam ads targeting Australians
The Australian: Disrupt Radio in final talks to resume live broadcasting
The Australian: Seven gets the eyeballs, but not the advertising dollars
The Australian: The Monkeys: From congealed blood to the world stage

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design, and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s episode of the Unmade podcast features the third stop on our Compass tour, when we rolled into Sydney. Plus, further down, the board of radio network SEN signal that they want to be dealt into the deal-making action.

You should be at next year’s Compass. If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, why not do it today? Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass, all returning in 2025
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Transparency deprioritised: ’If there are dodgy agencies out there, those two probably deserve each other’

The third chapter of this year’s expanded six-state Compass Roadshow rolled into Sydney earlier this month with four of the industry’s most high-profile people.

Telstra CMO Brent Smart has been the client behind some of the industry’s most talked-about advertising work this year. Peter Horgan chairs the Media Federation and is the outgoing CEO of Omnicom Media Group. Lou Barrett leads sales at News Corp Australia. Jasmin Bedir is CEO of creative agency Innocean and founder of gender equality initiative Fck the Cupcakes

An early topic was the price of not doing distinctive work.

According to Smart: “I think the really brave marketers are the ones who create boring things. That’s super brave.”

Later in the conversation, he expanded on the point: “The bravest markers are the ones doing boring, invisible marketing.” Of the Telstra work, Smart said: I don’t think it’s brave, I think I’m commercially smart. I do it to drive a commercial result. I don’t do it for vanity or to win awards. I do it because it’s more commercially effective to be creative.”

Meanwhile Horgan flagged the challenge of procurement departments driving down agency remuneration. He told the room that his challenge of the year was : “Pushing back on weaponised procurement, which means we don’t need humans any more in the communications ecosystem, trying to push back on that reductive narrative.”

He added: “Two years ago the revenue was easy… and the humans were hard. This year, humans aren’t easy, but the revenue is bloody hard.”

Smart argued that it is in brands’ best interests to avoid simply chasing the lowest cost with agencies.. “Screwing down your partners is not how you get discretionary effort from your partners. A lot of clients forget we can pay an agency a fee, but the bit you can’t buy is their passion and how much they care, and that’s a good commercial decision.”

For Bedir, a theme of the year was the rise of generative AI. “I am deeply concerned about gen AI. What I hear from clients is there’s a lack of governance in most organisations. There’s so many suppliers trying to peddle you stuff that magically makes your problems go away. That’s the latest gold rush.”

Accountants on the march

And Barrett warned of a media landscape dominated by CEOs who had come up through finance. Recent months have seen Seven West Media, Nine and Southern Cross Austereo all put their chief financial officers in the top chair

Asked to nominate a challenge for the industry, Barrett said: “The rise and rise of the CFO. With so many CFOs running media companies now, I worry we’re going to end up with a lack of creativity.”

Bedir also warned that the industry is struggling to find diverse new talent: “I’m concerned about the pathway of getting people in to the industry. If you’ve got the same group of people we end up with the same outputs.”

And Horgan also flagged as a problem for the industry, the issue of brands investing less in understanding their media investments, He said: “Transparency is a double edged word, which needs to be owned on the client side as well.

"It’s not the focus that was. There’s a bell curve of clients out there who have ten person team, haven’t been able to sell expertise they need to board and are not able to sell the expertise to the board. You do the maths. If there are dodgy agencies out there, those two probably deserve each other.

And Barrett added as an issue: “Over reliance on social and platforms. These guys are not paying taxes in Australia. They are not paying for content.” She added: “I’m not talking about Google, I’m talking about Meta.”

Smart also acknowledged that he had learned a new lesson this year, having not previously given enough priority to influencing the staff of the brands where he has worked. He said: “Something that is often overlooked by marketers is, make your staff proud to work for the brand. That has an incredible impact on how they show up. I wouldn’t have thought as much about that in the past. But I’ve seen some incredible impact.”

Unmade Index rises as SEN tells the M&A market: Deal us in

The Unmade Index nudged upwards for a second day on Wednesday, while SEN Radio’s owner Sports Entertainment Group used its AGM to signal that it wants to be a player in media deal making.

SEG’s chairman Craig Coleman told shareholders that the company has been tidying up its balance sheet including selling Perth Wildcats and its New Zealand station SENZ. SEN has reduced its net debt to $13.3m and delivered an EBITDA profit of $9.6m in the last financial year.

Coleman told investors: “We are now well positioned to be an active participant in beneficial media consolidation moves.”

However, although SEN said it was on track to improve its profitability in this financial half, it said the radio market remains tough. “Our media division is seeing a tightening in the economy with businesses feeling the impacts of a lingering slowdown which is not isolated to any particular industry.”

SEG is the smallest of the ASX-listed audio players with a market cap of $64m, compared to ARN’s $225m and Southern Cross Austereo’s $130m.

SEN’s share price did not move after the update yesterday, after seeing a drop of 8% the day before.

The Unmade Index closed 0.41% down on 451.6 points.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. (Special thanks to Team Abe’s for cleaning up what was poor audio recorded at the venue.)

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today: The marketing industry reels at the sudden death of Lisa Ronson; How much more will get done on media policy as Canberra enters its final sitting week?; ARN Media prepares to make mischief at today’s Southern Cross Austereo AGM; and we explore the theory that Paramount should buy Seven

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn, REmade, Unlock, and Compass;
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Industry in shock at sudden death of marketer Lisa Ronson; SCA faces bumpy AGM; what next for Seven?

In today’s conversation:

The marketing community was shocked to learn yesterday afternoon of the sudden death of Lisa Ronson.
SCA’s AGM is likely to be a tricky one today, with shareholders including rival ARN Media set to turn the heat on the board;
With just one more week left in Parliament, most mooted media reforms are likely to fizzle out;
Here’s a theory: Could the best owner for Seven Network be Paramount?

Further reading:

Minister for Communications: Minimum age for social media access to protect Australian kids
Australian Financial Review: Why this former TikTok executive wants a strict social media ban
Minister for Communications: New Duty of Care obligations on platforms will keep Australians safer online
Unmade: Why the sudden hurry on social media?
Forbes: Coca Cola’s AI-Generated Ad Controversy, Explained
TechCrunch: Perplexity brings ads to its platform
ABC News: Why X users are jumping across to new platform Bluesky in the wake of US election

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design, and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we share the highlights from the opening chapter of this year’s Compass roadshow. And further down, the Unmade Index’s green streak comes to an end.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (2025), Unlock (2025), and Compass(November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Brand fame, burnout and doing more with less

Unmade’s six-state Compass roadshow kicked off in Hobart last week.

Today we share highlights from that first session. The discussion, recorded in front of a live audience, featured Ally Bradley, GM of Southern Cross Austereo in Tasmania, South Australia, Victoria and the NT; creative Chas Bayfield; Lindene Cleary, CMO of Tourism Tasmania, Abe Udy, founder of audio production house Abe’s Audio; and Simon Crerar, editor-in-chief of SmartCompany.

The evening kicked off with a warning from Bayfield that timidity from brands in their advertising is a far bigger risk than controversy because unremarkable advertising will not be seen. “The big challenge is invisibility,” Bayfield warned.

Other topics in the debate, moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, included the journey of Tourism Tasmania’s ‘Come Down for Air’ positioning, the business challenges being faced by SmartCompany and other publishers, the effects of burnout on over-stretched teams, and the threats and opportunities offered by AI

For those curious about the reference to Blackcurrant Tango, this was Bayfield’s famous 1998 ad, ‘St George’:

The Compass roadshow continues next week. We’re in Perth on Monday, Adelaide on Tuesday and the tour concludes in Melbourne on Wednesday. Tickets are on sale via this link.

Unmade Index slips back into the red

The Unmade Index’s four-day winning streak came to an end yesterday with falls almost across the board for media stocks.

Among the larger businesses, Southern Cross Austereo has the worst of it, losing 2.8%. Audio rival ARN Media dropped 2.1%

The Unmade Index lost 0.69% to land on 429.8 points.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition, we ask whether Donald Trump’s podcast strategy will signal an advertising shift; we look back at the Seven and Nine AGMs, and forward to the ABC, Seven and Are Media upfronts.

f you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (2025), Unlock (2025), and Compass(November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Did Joe Rogan put Trump over the top?

Just a week ago, the consensus was that the US election was too close to call. Now, everybody is an expert on why a Donald Trump victory was inevitable.

One underplayed factor was the strategy of Donald Trump’s team to make him available on several podcasts including The Joe Rogan Experience. With podcasts skewing younger and more male than most mainstream media, will Trump’s victory change how marketers see the medium?

Also today, Seven West Media and Nine set very different tones at their AGMs; and we look forward to the ABC, Are Media and Seven’s 2025 scene setting upfront events.

Further reading:

Google Trends: ‘Did Joe Biden drop out?'
Unmade: Index bottoms out as TV networks share a gloomy outlook
The Saturday Paper: ‘The mighty and powerful Joe Rogan’
Pivot: How Trump will impact media
Joe Rogan Experience: #2219 Donald Trump

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’r taking a scheduled publishing break tomorrow while I travel to Compass Brisbane.

We’ll be back with more on Wednesday.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s interview features Australia’s most talked about business writer, Joe Aston, whose book on Qantas has dominated the political cycle for the last ten days.

Also today, in the Unmade Index, Seven and Nine held their AGMs, taking different approaches to acknowledging their failings.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Complimentary tickets to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (2025), Unlock (2025), and Compass (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

‘No amount of PR can fix the operations of a company that is failing’: Joe Aston on how profit-chasing caught up with the Qantas brand

Today’s conversation with Joe Aston takes place where brand, business, and lobbying collide.

His book The Chairman’s Lounge contains the most detailed examination yet seen of the Qantas-operated network of invitation-only lounges for politicians and the business elite.

Across Australia’s capital cities, alongside the well signposted Qantas Club and Qantas Business Lounges, is a third type of lounge, hidden behind mirrored doors, with word ‘Private’ written on them.

The Chairman’s Lounge isn’t just a space with an a la carte menu and top shelf wine; being invited to become a member means a range of travel perks. No matter what type of ticket they buy, a Chairman’s Lounge member will likely be upgraded when they fly.

At the very least, they’ll be sitting in the front row of economy. Ever noticed those smartly dressed people enjoying the extra leg-room of row 4, being greeted by name by the cabin crew and handed a glass of something nice from the business trolley? Chances are they’re CL members.

And for influential politicians travelling internationally, CL status means buying an economy class ticket and sitting in a first class seat.

The Chairman’s Lounge has been an incredibly effective lobbying tool, allowing Qantas more access to politicians than any other business in Australia. Says Aston: ”What the Chairman’s Lounge does is make Qantas the most powerful lobbyist in Canberra.”

And that’s without taking into account the bosses who bend their company travel policies towards Qantas, even if other alternatives are cheaper. As Aston puts it: “It’s worth every cent. The operating costs aren’t that high compared to what it gets people to do, and that is spend millions and millions more than they otherwise would”.

Aston’s book covers the period where underinvestment in operations began to catch up with the Qantas brand. He is critical of the board for failing to hold former CEO Alan Joyce to account as the brand deteriorated. That includes Australia’s most famous adman Todd Sampson. “I do think it is ridiculous that he's still on the Qantas board - he proved to be completely useless when it mattered.Not, by the way, more useless than than anyone else, and not less useless: just as useless.

Theres a risk of burying the lede in this interview. His Rear Window column in the Australian Financial Review was often an agenda setter. So what will he do next?

Aston hints that he may launch a newsletter of his own: “Doing my own reader-funded content is something I’ve thought about.”

He acknowledges that his style of writing on the edge puts him in danger of attracting threatening letters from defamation lawyers. “It’s all a risk calculation,” he says. “It’s how much revenue you can generate and is it enough to just pay for whatever litigation costs come your way. “

Index bottoms out as TV networks share a gloomy outlook

The Unmade Index recovered marginally on Thursday after hitting another all-time low the day before.

Yesterday saw The Unmade Index lift by 0.15% to land on 424.2 points. The Index, which tracks the value of Australia’s ASX-listed media and marketing sector, began at the start of 2022 on a nominal 1000 points.

Both Nine and Seven West Media held their annual general meetings yesterday.

Nine’s chair Catherine West used a significant her address to shareholders to acknowledge that the company still needs to do more to address its problematic culture within its newsrooms.

SWM’s chair Kerry Stokes dedicated one paragraph of his address to tell his shareholders that his company has now modernised its culture, and four paragraphs to complaining about the ABC’s coverage of the problem.

Nine told the market that after an Olympics boost, TV revenues have returned to the 10% rate of decline seen in the previous financial year. It warned “we are seeing no tangible signs of improvement to date”.

Seven said its revenues are likely to be down about 6.5% for the half.

Nine’s market cap grew slightly yesterday, up by 0.9% to $1.75bn. Seven West Media lost 3%, to land on $239m

Meanwhile, Ooh Media recovered by 2.1% and Southern Cross Austereo was up by nearly 1%. ARN Media went in the other direction, losing 4.2%.

Time to leave you to your Friday.

I’ll be back tomorrow with Best of the Week.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition: Can a loveable monster make Myer’s Christmas?; The launch of AI-driven search in Australia creates a new peril for news publishing; and Nine’s chair faces a shareholder rebellion.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes a complimentary ticket to this month’s Compass roadshow, plus all of Unmade’s 2025 events, including HumAIn, REmade and Unlock (2025).

You also get our member-only content and our paywalled archives; and your own copy of Media Unmade.

As Myer parts with Clems, it launches their last Christmas campaign; Zero click comes to Australia; and Nine’s board readies for rough AGM

With the Christmas retail season more crucial than ever for the advertising sector, Myer has launched its Christmas effort, featuring a bovver-boot wearing monster called Humbug. And will the decision of Myer to pitch its creative account open the door for a reunion?

Speaking of bovver boots, we also discuss Google’s local launch of AI Overviews and OpenAI’s decision to turn on web search.

And we discuss today’s report in Capital Brief that Nine’s chair Catherine West faces a shareholder vote against her reappointment.

Further reading:

The Australian: Myer kicks off Christmas season with playful campaign
Little Black Book: Myer Pitches Creative Account
Little Black Book: Ant Keogh, Paul McMillan, and Michael Derepas Leave The Monkeys Melb to Launch Agency
Unmade: Can ChatGPT’s new search offering see past paywalls?
Unmade: News Corp kicks off its first big AI legal battle
Google: Introducing AI Overviews in Australia, a new generative AI experience on Search
The Australian: Nine chair Catherine West set for re-election at AGM this week
Capital Brief: Nine shareholders urged to 'hold directors accountable' for toxic culture

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

View Details

Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today, ahead of his visit to Australia for next month’s IAB Leadership Summit, we talk to IAB Tech Lab’s CEO Tony Katsur about the state of play in digital advertising. And the Unmade Index approaches a new low.

Only Unmade’s paying members get full access. They were entitled to a ticket to today’s inaugural Unlock conference in Sydney. They also get an invitation to our Compass: Reflections and Projections event, taking place across six states throughout November. Next year they’ll also be able to join us at our AI-focused conference HumAIn (Q2 2025) and at our retail media conference REmade.

They get full access to our archives, which go behind the paywall after two months. Feeling jealous of all that access? Maybe that should be you. Upgrade today.

‘Data provenance is going to be one of the top issues in 2025 and 2026’: What IAB Tech Lab CEO Anthony Katsur worries about

Being the boss of IAB Tech Lab, the standard setting body of the digital advertising industry, must be a frustrating experience. With more responsibility than power, the IAB attempts to shepherd its members towards agreed tech standards including around audience measurement.

In the rise of the open web, the industry broadly agreed about specs like standard ad sizes and audience measurement. In Australia, the IAB endorses Ipsos as preferred currency, and before that Nielsen.

In CTV (connected TV) though, in Australia and around the world, there’s no such consensus. That includes Foxtel at the centre of a coalition of streamers pushing for a solution from Kantar, while OzTAM, owned by Seven, Nine and Ten, takes a different direction with VOZ (Virtual Australia).

Then there’s the issue of global platforms who want to apply their own measurement and standards to their walled gardens, which tends to deliver them the results they want.

Today’s podcast guest is IAB Tech Lab’s New York-based Tony Katsur, talking to Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. Katsur be speaking on standards at the IAB’s Leadership Summit in Sydney on November 20.

Katsur is a veteran of the digital advertising economy having worked for some of the industry’s formative players including DoubleClick, MediaMath and Rubicon Project before joining IAB Tech Lab three years ago

In the wide ranging conversation, Katsur describes himself not so much as a sherrif of what was a wild west, but a constable, imploring his constituents to do the right thing.

On CTV he observes: “There are companies that may believe that they're a walled garden, but they're not. Therefore they think they can go it alone with their own proprietary forms of measurement.

“There are a lot of companies out there that think they’re a bigger deal than they are, and think they can measure themselves or have their own proprietary measurement standard.”

Among the other topics discusses are the threat that the large language models of AI pose to the intellectual property of media owners; why data provenance will be the key phrase of 2025 and 2026; whether the preparation for cookie deprecation that never came was wasted effort (he argues not); and reasons to feel optimistic for publishers.

Tony Katsur will be speaking at the IAB Australia Leadership Summit on November 20

Unmade Index hovers over the trapdoor

The Unmade Index slipped to within a fraction of a percentage point of a new all-time low yesterday. The index, which plots the movement of Australia’s ASX-listed media and marketing companies, lost 0.51%, to land on 437.7 points. It’s previous all-time low of 437.4 points came six weeks ago.

The index was pulled down by shifts at the top of town, with Nine losing 1.3% and its majority owned real estate platform Domain dropping 1.7%. Nine is now trading at its lowest point since April 2020.

It was a better day for the audio players, with ARN Media gaining 2.8% and Southern Cross Austereo up by 3.1%.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. The Unmade team are all in Sydney today for our Unlock conference. And we’ll be back with a text-led edition tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

View Details

Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition, Seven West Media and News Corp lobby for government help on funding; households make the switch to ad-funded tiers, and we look ahead to the final upfront events of the year.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including Unlock (this Thursday October 31), Compass (across November), HumAIn (Q2 2025) and REmade (Q3 2025);
Member-only content like this post; and all of our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Fighting disinformation by funding news: Media bosses stop up the rhetoric; Ad-supported TV back in vogue

After last week’s softener from the Joint Select Committee on Social Media and Australian Society, Australia’s big media players are moving into lobbying overdrive. Seven will argue this week that the giant digital platforms are a force for evil; while News Corp’s boss is arguing that the little end of town cannot be the solution.

Instead, Seven and News Corp are lobbying for the government to support the not-too-big, not-too-small Goldilocks solution of companies like, well, Seven and News Corp.

As the Australian reports, the editor-in-chief of Seven West Media, Anthony De Ceglie, will tomorrow use a Melbourne Press Club speech to attack the platforms including Elon Musk’s X, and Mark Zuckerberg’s Meta, saying:

“Elon Musk doesn’t care about the truth. In fact, he revels in peddling lies and boasts about using his bin fire of a site to influence the US election.

“Meanwhile, Mark Zuckerberg is seemingly happy for Meta to profit off the page impressions that child sex offenders create when they routinely use his site to prey on their next victim.

“Against these evil forces — and calling them that is not an exaggeration — there is only one true antidote. The news. The truth. The fourth estate.”

De Ceglie will also champion the idea of a tax break for producing news and current affairs content.

And News Corp’s executive chairman Michael Miller argues in The Australian today that the government should try to force Meta to go on supporting the big media players it did deals with three years ago:

“The government is at risk of abandoning the engine rooms of Australian news, which is where the bulk of the jobs are and where the bulk of important Australian stories are told,” he said.

“The parliament’s primary focus should be those deals Meta has walked away from.

As well as discussing De Ceglie and Miller’s arguments, today’s edition of Start the Week examines new numbers from Kantar which suggest a big jump in household penetration of ad-supported streaming services - up from 10% of homes to 25% in just a year; and looks across the agenda of media events over the next couple of weeks.

Further reading:

The Australian: Seven boss Anthony De Ceglie slams government for not supporting media
The Australian: News Corp boss Michael Miller urges government to prioritise survival of mainstream media outlets
Unmade: Landing lights glimmer for a digital levy to fund news
Mi3: Meta barked, Australia blinked: News Bargaining Code to be shelved as Feds prepare possible digital ad tax
The Australian: Viewers are increasingly signing up to streaming services with advertising, Kantar research shows

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Along with revealing the lineup for the Brisbane edition of our Compass event, we today feature an in-depth interview with Mark Frain, CEO of Foxtel Media, recorded around last week’s Upfront event. Plus, a further dip in the Unmade Index.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including Unlock (October 31), Compass (across November), HumAIn (Q2 2025) and REmade (Q3 2025);
Members-only content; and all of our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Budget Direct Chief Growth Officer, Nine MD, Publicis strategy chief and comms veteran to bring Compass to Brisbane

Cat McGinn writes:

We can today reveal the leadership panel for the Brisbane Compass event, Unmade’s annual industry meet-up, this year taking place in six states.

The panel features Jonathan Kerr, Chief Growth Officer of Budget Direct; Michael Crutcher, PR professional and former editor of the Brisbane Courier Mail; Simon Murphy, chief strategy officer for Publicis; and Kylie Blucher, managing director of Nine Queensland & Northern NSW.

The panel will be moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and the discussion will later be featured as an Unmade podcast.

Unmade’s paying members are entitled to a complimentary place at Compass, and tickets are on sale here.

Unmade’s Compass roadshow takes place across six states.

Wednesday November 6 - Hobart, The Hope and Anchor;
Tuesday November 12 - Brisbane, The Prince Consort;
Wednesday November 13 - Sydney, The Sporting Globe;
Monday November 18 - Perth, The Globe;
Tuesday November 19 - Adelaide, Elephant British Pub;
Wednesday November 20 - Melbourne, The Garden State Hotel.

‘We agitated for change and we didn’t get the answers we were looking for’: Why Mark Frain created the VFC

From his opening words on stage at last week’s Foxtel Media Upfront event, it was clear that boss Mark Frain hasn’t made peace with the decision made by Seven, Nine and Ten to refuse him a place at the ownership table for measurement system OzTAM.

Instead, he has gone it alone, with Foxtel building its own measurement system powered by Kantar, and inviting a coalition of streamers to join them in the Video Future Collective.

Frain sees it as the free-to-air networks’ loss: “It’s been cathartic” he tells Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. “We did request to become officially part of OzTAM from a shareholding perspective. We also discussed the opportunity to provide our data to that business where we thought we could enrich and improve the service. And unfortunately, the shareholders said no. So from there, that forced us down a different direction.”

The biggest downside of the schism is that for media agencies and brands they now have a second measurement system to contend with. Frain is unapologetic. “Any change causes some unrest”.

This new direction includes the creation of a coalition of streamers under the banner of the Video Futures Collective, chaired by Foxtel’s Toby Dewar. Alongside Foxtel, the VFC membership now consists of Amazon Advertising, Disney Advertising, Samsung Ads, SBS On Demand, Vevo and YouTube. Frain says, pointedly, “Everyone’s got an equal share of voice.”

Declaration of interest: Foxtel provided my travel and accommodation for the upfront event, and they’ve been advertising with us this week. The podcast interview was not part of any commercial arrangement.

Unmade Index continues downwards drift

Tim Burrowes writes:

The Unmade Index’s slow stall has stretched into a week after losing another 0.74% yesterday. That followed a drop of 0.73% on Tuesday. The Unmade Index, which tracks Australia’s listed media and marketing companies has been losing ground since last Tuesday. It closed on 444.7 points last night.

Yesterday saw Vinyl Group grow by 4.6% to a market capitalisation of $111m, just behind Southern Cross Austereo’s $112m.

Ooh Media’s slide also continued, losing 2.5% yesterday to land at $641m. The company has lost nearly 9% over the last month.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio. We’ll be back with more tomorrow

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition: We reflect on the industry’s move against Campaign Brief; And Nine is hit with a historic rape claim after publishing its culture report.

We’ve upgraded Unmade’s membership. Annual members now get a free ticket to all of our events. That includes Unlock on October 31; our Compass series in November; and REmade and HumAIn next year.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership also includes members-only content, access to our paywalled archives and your own copy of Media Unmade. Upgrade today.

How Campaign Brief contributes to the problem

The dominos have continued to fall for Campaign Brief after a backlash against its perpetuation of a creative club dominated by middle aged white men.

In today’s conversation, we explore why Campaign Brief isn’t just reporting a problem, but is actively contributing, by using its power and influence to support the same club.

And also today, a new challenge for Nine, as The Australian breaks news of an alleged rape after a Christmas party.

Further reading:

Unmade: Why won’t Campaign Brief acknowledge women (and why do male execs still support them)?
Unmade: Campaign Grief
The Australian: Advertising’s gender representation debate heats up as agencies boycott trade title
Unmade: Truth and consequences at Nine?
The Australian: Former Nine junior female staffer reports alleged sexual assault involving senior male manager

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features a fascinating exploration of how Four Pillars Gin became such a huie brand success, with an in-depth conversation with co-founder Matt Jones. Also today, we share details of the Sydney panel for Unmade’s Compass roadshow.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including Unlock (October 31), Compass (across November); HumAIn (2025), and REmade (September 2025).
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Smart, Barrett, Horgan and Bedir revealed for Unmade’s Compass Sydney panel next month

Cat McGinn writes:

We can today reveal our Sydney panel for our annual industry meet-up Compass, which will travel to six states for the first time.

The Sydney edition, taking place on November 13, will feature Brent Smart, CMO of Telstra; Lou Barrett, managing director of client partnerships at News Corp; Jasmin Bedir, CEO of creative agency Innocean; and Peter Horgan, outgoing CEO of Omnicom Media Group, for a lively discussion of the year just gone and outlook on 2025.

The pub conversation will also be featured as an Unmade podcast.

Unmade’s paying members are entitled to a complimentary place while tickets are also on sale here.

Unmade’s Compass will for the first time take place across six states. We’ll be announcing each state’s speaker lineup across the next few days

Wed 6 November - Hobart;
Tues 12 Nov - Brisbane: The Prince Consort;
Wed 13 Nov - Sydney: The Sporting Globe;
Mon 18 Nov - Perth: The Globe;
Tues 19 Nov - Adelaide: Elephant British Pub;
Wed 20 Nov - Melbourne: The Garden State Hotel.

Love and craft and marketing - how Matt Jones helped create the legend of Four Pillars Gin

A year on from a $100m exit, Four Pillars Gin co-founder Matt Jones has written a book about the business discipline behind the creation of one of the great Australian brand success stories.

Unusually for the author of a business book, Jones is not just a strategist, but one who put his money where his mouth was. Along with partners Stuart Gregor and Cameron Mackenzie, he made the decision to create a luxury gin brand, and then executed it brilliantly.

Lessons From Gin: Business the Four Pillars Way tells the story of how they did it, and offers a series of insights that anybody building a brand could borrow from. The book breaks the story into four stages - thinking, crafting, sharing and growing.

In today’s Unmade podcast, Jones shares with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes some of the lessons applied, and learned, along the way.

He makes the case that many business are underpowered in having marketing brains at the top. Like Jones, Gregor came from the communications world as owner of the PR agency Liquid Ideas. Mackenzie was the only working directly in the production of alcohol.

Says Jones: “We were far heavier in terms of creative industries, creative mindset, brand mindset, marketing mindset than 99% of leadership groups out there in the world.

“My perspective on the whole is that businesses are underweight when it comes to those voices around the leadership table. And I think that is something that we absolutely benefited from, that we valued these things that we might call brand leadership. We valued them at the heart of the business, not just the marketing strategy.”

Lessons from Gin will be published by Wiley on October 30 and is available on presale. On October 31 Jones will deliver the keynote at Unmade’s Unlock conference in Sydney where he will discuss the role of telling stories in building brands. Tickets are on sale now, or complimentary to Unmade’s paying members.

SCA moves back past Vinyl

Tim Burrowes writes:

The old order reasserted itself on the Unmade index yesterday with Southern Cross Austereo moving back past Vinyl Group.

SCA lost 1.1% to land on a market capitalisation of $111.5m, But Vinyl Group lost 4.4% to land on $111.1m.

Most acitvity on the Unmade Index was negative yesterday with Domain losing 1.3% and parent company Nine dropping 0.8%.

Seven West Media bucked the trend, growing by 3%

The Unmade Index fell 0.67% to land on 454.1 points.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

I’m about to hop onto a flight to Sydney to cover tonight’s Foxtel Upfront event. I’ll let you know how it went in tomorrow’s newsletter.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition: With Campaign Brief under fire for continuing to focus only on male creatives, the industry reacts; AI exhumes movie stars; the ACCC’s exposure of Coles’ and Woolworths’ shady pricing hits their brands; and Seven defends yet another legal case.

Why won’t Campaign Brief acknowledge women (and why do male execs still support them)?

The scandal of the last few days has been playing out on LinkedIn as the industry questions Campaign Brief’s ongoing emphasis on the talents only of male creatives

Campaign Brief’s latest ranking of creatives in NZ and Australia - in the gift of publisher Michael Lynch - focuses mainly on men. Even agencies featuring on the list, including Thinkerbell, appear to be asking themselves whether it’s a good idea to be there.

Thinkerbell was among the agencies highly placed. CEO Margie Reid, who is also a director of Support The Girls Australia, took to LinkedIn over the weekend to distance her agency from the ranking, writing: “Thinkerbell has not paid, created or had any part to play in the list that appeared in the latest edition of the Campaign Brief magazine or the BestAds ranking list. Nor were we contacted when the list was published.”

Creative Jet Swain put it more succinctly yesterday: “Shame on you Campaign Brief. Nothing has changed in the three decades I’ve witnessed this blatant misogyny. Your NZ lists had no women, and Australia only has Tara Ford.”

Also in today’s podcast: AI can bring dead actors back to life; but should it?; Coles and Woolworths have seen tangible brand damage from the ACCC prosecution new data from Roy Morgan Research shows; and Southern Cross Austereo is accused of ‘mocking’ its local TV news obligations.

Further reading:

Unmade: Cartel-ogy: The ACCC comes for retail media
Unmade: Brands beware: ACCC’s supermarkets attack is PR used as an offensive weapon
ACCC: Supermarkets inquiry August 2024 interim report
The Australian: Consumer trust in Coles and Woolworths plummets following ACCC action
Australian Financial Review: Google to test its artificial intelligence-powered search in Australia
Australian Financial Review: Billionaire Bruce Gordon retires from WIN as succession questions loom

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Cat McGinn.

(pic)

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today: As Vinyl Group this morning announces yet another acquisition, we talk to CEO Josh Simons about the bust-up that saw the ousting of Brag Media co-founder Luke Girgis, and the background to his opportunistic acquisition of Mediaweek.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (next week), Unlock (31 October), and Compass (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

‘I stand behind the acquisition every day of the week’: Vinyl boss Josh Simons on the bumpy Brag Media buyout

Among the bosses of Australia’s ASX-listed media companies, nobody has had a more random path to the hot seat than Josh Simons. From the lead singer of rock band Buchanan, Simons went on to found Vampr, a social networking site for the music industry, before seeing that acquired by the company he went on to head, Vinyl Group.

Simons was the architect of Vinyl’s $8m+ purchase of the Brag Media group, publisher of The Brag and local editions of Rolling Stone and Variety among others, at the start of the year.

The initial plan was for Vinyl Group to be a portfolio company with its Brag Media arm run separately to its music platform interests. But that quickly fell over, with the less-than-amicable departure of Brag Media co-founder Luke Girgis five months after the takeover.

That left Simons taking what he describes in today’s interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes as “a masterclass in media” as he relocated from Melbourne and took charge of the Brag Media publishing operation.

That’s included a lesson in the publishing etiquette around journalistic independence. Simons concedes that he was “naive” when he took control adding: “I'm not dogmatic in terms of my views on things. And I think it's important to be able to know when you've said something stupid.”

Vinyl Group, with a market capitalisation of a little under $92m, is behind only Nine, Domain, Ooh Media, Seven West Media, ARN Media and Southern Cross Austereo when it comes to local ASX-listed media companies. When it comes to the narrower business of publishing, Vinyl is fourth if you also include the dual-listed News Corp. As Simons observes dryly: “It’s not lost on my parents.”

During the interview, Simons offers few clues about what led to the ousting of Girgis, although he hints: “We had to invest in areas that were previously just not being invested in. We needed to bring journalists in.”

Hires have included Lars Brandle as head of content, and promoting former Daily Mail and Cartology executive Jess Hunter to head of Brag Media. Since recording the interview, editor-in-chief Poppy Reid who was part of the Girgis era, announced her exit.

Earlier this month, Vinyl Group completed the fire sale acquisition of Mediaweek for just $1m after owner Trent Thomas was forced to sell the title following allegations of harassment towards staff. The timing and price of the deal was, Simons says, “almost too good to be true”. The integration is being overseen by Vinyl Group’s chief operating officer Joel King.

Simons hints there are more media acquisitions in the entertainment space to come, including overseas. Asked about the fact that Vinyl Group’s tech platforms are global while the media companies are local, he notes: “Rome wasn’t built in a day. We’ve got broad, ambitious plans for global. Rest assured that we're looking around the world to find teams that might add value in any of those areas inside the media part of Vinyl.”

As we were publishing this morning, Vinyl Group announced to the ASX that it has agreed to buy event and brand activation agency Funkified from founder Gus Stephenson for $2.5m. Funkified has been Brag Media’s in-house events supplier since 2021. It had a turnover of $4m and EBITDA profit of $430,000 in the last financial year.

In the interview, Simons also fleshes out his strategy for Vinyl Group, which as well as Vampr includes music credits database Jaxsta and online retail platform Vinyl. The job of the media arm is to fund investment in the company’s (so far) loss-making tech. “Our media company now is really the engine that allows us to invest in technology. In the past, we've seen media companies try and buy tech companies, and it hasn't worked out so well. And so what we're trying here is buying media companies to fuel tech.”

Despite being an ASX-listed company, Vinyl Group’s shareholder register is dominated by a handful of wealthy investors including WiseTech Global founder Richard White and Songrtradr boss Paul Wiltshire.

Says Simons: “I'm quite calm and optimistic about where everything's at.” Asked whether Vinyl Group still belongs on the ASX, he adds, intriguingly: “Yeah. Especially if you knew what I know.”

Declaration of interest: Via his super fund, Tim Burrowes owns shares in most of Australia’s listed media companies, including Vinyl Group.

Inflation relief lifts Unmade Index

The Unmade Index bounced yesterday as the market absorbed improving inflation numbers. The index - which tracks Australia’s listed media and marketing companies - grew by 1.5% to 449.3 points - outperforming the wider ASX All Ordinaries which grew by 0.15% yesterday.

Among the larger stocks, Nine saw the biggest lift, up by 2.44%.

In the audio space, ARN Media and Southern Cross Austereo grew by 1.6% and 1.1%, while radio company Sports Entertainment Group lost 5.5%.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

As we count down to next week’s REmade conference, we’ll be back with a retail media-led edition of Unmade tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: James Warburton invests in Boost Media; troubled Disrupt Radio says it’s in a “holding pattern”; the AFL and NRL lobby on betting ads; and LinkedIn admits to training its AI on user content.

We’ve upgraded Unmade’s membership. Annual members now get a free ticket to all of our events. That includes REmade - Retail Media Unmade on October 1; Unlock on October 31; our Compass series in November; and HumAIn next year.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (1 October), Unlock (31 October), and Compass(November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Telstra kicks off new campaign around grand final; Warburton invests in Boost; Disrupt Radio staff still unpaid

Telstra is among the first brands to reveal its plans for a big campaign launch timed around AFL grand final, according to The Australian today. The Oz also features good and bad news from streaming radio, with Disrupt Radio still in a funding crunch and Broad Radio about to go from pre-recorded live.

Over in the AFR, Seven West Media is the topic of the day, with former boss James Warburton revealing an investment in ad inventory reseller Boost Media alongside private equity company CVC; and questions about Seven Group’s appetite to remain invested in its media arm SWM.

And today’s AI chat covers the revelation that LinkedIn is training its large language model on posts from its users; the role of generative AI in creating media content; and a new version of OpenAI.

Further reading:

The Australian: Disrupt Radio is two months behind in staff payments, future of station unclear
The Australian: Broad Radio launches new live programs on the women-only radio station
The Australian: Telstra gets animated to shake off corporate image
Australian Financial Review: Ex-Seven chief James Warburton, CVC Emerging Companies ink media deal
Australian Financial Review: Seven West Media stokes tension behind the scenes at Seven Group
Unmade: Publishers await their Independents Day
Sydney Morning Herald: ‘Nanny state’: NRL, AFL storm the field over gambling ads
Mumbrella: AI generated content doesn’t work – But if it did? The media’s screwed

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to a Tuesday update from Unmade. In the interests of topicality we’re reworking our publishing rhythm this week. We’ve brought forward to today our usual Thursday audio-led interview to focus on the Paramount Upfronts which kicked off in Sydney yesterday. And our member-only post which usually happens on a Tuesday, will be later in the week. Further down, we’ve also got better news on the Unmade Index which finally broke its eight day losing streak.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (1 October), Unlock (31 October), and Compass (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

How Paramount is making one plus one add up to more

Paramount yesterday become the first of Australia’s TV companies to show its hand during 2025 Upfronts season.

One of the challenges of covering Upfronts presentations is that they tend to be a grab bag of announcements, without there necessarily being a unifying theme.

That was certainly the case with Paramount, with announcements covering free to air commissions for Network 10, local commissions for streaming service Paramount+, the company’s global content pipeline, converged trading technology upgrades with Paramount Connect, and a rebrand that will see 10 Play disappear so it will be Ten across both linear and streaming.

And that in itself was the unifying theme. Albeit by accident rather than plan, the global ownership structure of the company leaves Paramount as the best placed media company to argue that the sum of its parts adds up to more than the whole.

While Paramount Plus isn’t the biggest subscription streaming platform with an advertising tier, it gets to be the only one that is part of a local Upfront.

While a distant third behind Seven and Nine in broadcast TV, Ten gets a pipeline of global formats and content from its parent company.

While 10 Play isn’t as big as Seven’s FAST (free ad supported TV) channels, advertisers and agencies can buy across both Paramount+ and 10 Play.

To lean in to the acronyms, Paramount is the only company locally that can offer advertisers audiences across SVOD, BVOD, FAST and FTA. The sum of the parts has the potential to equal more than the whole

Under Hugh Marks, Nine’s portfolio felt like a company where its assets across TV, streaming, publishing and radio added up to more than the whole. More recently one plus one has equalled two at best.

Seven West Media’s TV and publishing assets feel similarly disconnected, even more so since being split into seperate divisions ready for some sort of M&A activity.

ARN Media’s (so far failed) takeover plan for SCA was about being stronger in the single medium of audio.

Southern Cross Austereo’s valuation will go up as soon as it finally offloads its fading regional TV licences (presumably mostly to Paramount) and becomes a pure play audio company.

So what to make of Paramount’s announcements?

There’s a further investment in live reality TV alongside I’m A Celebrity. Big Brother returns to its original home where it ran for its first eight seasons, before three seasons on Nine where it relaunched well out of the 2012 Olympics before fading, and five seasons on Seven which took much of the life out of the format by moving to a cheaper pre-recorded format.

Big Brother will be live on Ten and streamed 24 hours a day live which is almost exactly the sort of content FAST was invented for.

There were no other major format surprises. Have You Been Paying Attention, MasterChef, Taskmaster, Survivor, and Thank God You’re Here all return. The Project stays on air.

Talking ‘Bout Your Generation (or Talkin’ ‘Bout Your Gen as it will be this time) has been revived minus Shaun Micallef as host. Sam Pang will get his own show.

During the podcast conversation with sales boss Rod Prosser and programming lead Daniel Monaghan, I didn’t detect much of an appetite to go after a big (and expensive) sporting code. The kite flown at the weekend by NRL boss Peter V’landys feels more like an attempt to scare Nine into thinking it could face an auction.

There was also some paranormal activity from Paramount.

An Australian version of sitcom Ghosts, which started life in the BBC in the UK will be cast shortly (I have my suspicions we won’t see it on screen until 2026). I’m intrigued how the caveman character of Robin from the original will translate into a local character without controversy around First Nations people. Monaghan tackles that in the interview.

And a spooky six part scripted drama Playing Gracie Darling will land on Paramount+

As well as talking about the content announcements, the interview addressed the question of how the TV industry can stop sounding defensive about its fading linear numbers and start getting aggressive about streaming.

Prosser acknowledges: “We don't see ourselves as a free-to-air business anymore. We see ourselves … as a premium video business. Obviously, the free-to-air asset is incredibly important.

It's important to recognize a couple of things. The first thing is that the free-to-air linear still drives the biggest reach.

“The second fact is linear audiences are declining. I think none of us can have our heads in the sand about that.

“We were artificially propped up through Covid. I think everyone recognises that.

“And that decline that we knew was coming has come. And I think we'll see stabilisation in those audiences now.”

“The reality is television is still a mass-reaching vehicle. And I think there's no reason to be defensive around that. We own it.

“But I do think the linear audiences have found their place.”

Declaration of interest: My travel and accommodation for the event was covered by Paramount

Unmade Index finally breaks losing streak

The Unmade Index finally broke an eight day streak of declines to record a move upwards yesterday, growing by 1.36% to 443.3 points.

The best performer was Domain, majority owned by Nine, which rose by 4.3%. That in turn helped lift Nine by 2.1%.

Rival TV network Seven rose by 2.9%.

Among the larger stocks, Southern Cross Austereo had the worst of it, slipping by 3.8%. SCA’s market capitalisation of $122m is the lowest it has ever been. The smaller audio stock of Sports Entertainment Group, owner of SEN radio, lost 7.6%.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with another newsletter tomorrow.

We also have a clarification. In Saturday’s Best of the Week, I reported that VOZ streaming would launch on November 25, as a means for advertisers to frequency cap their campaigns across differing media plartforms. I mentioned that this had previously been announced as December 29. In fact, that date is the full launch of VOZ as a trading currency and remains the same.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition, we explore what happens next at Nine, the NRL tries to bring Paramount into its next TV rights auction, and Upfronts season rolls on.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (1 October), Unlock (31 October), and Compass(November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Mike drop, now what for Nine?

Mike Sneesby may be on the way out for Nine, but the company still has months of dramas ahead.

As we discuss in today’s podcast, acting CEO Matt Stanton’s first challenge will be navigating the release of the report into the company’s culture. The Australian reports today that “a slew of bullying claims have also been levelled against two senior women at Nine”.

Also in the podcast, we list some of the contenders for what is one of the biggest jobs in Australian media.

Plus, we get ready for another big week in Upfronts season, with Paramount sharing its plans for 2025 today, and Digital Publishers Alliance running Independents Day on Thursday.

And the NRL is trying to talk up a bid from Paramount for its next round of rights negotiations.

Further reading:

Unmade: Nine's $3bn decline
Unmade: Scorecard: Mike Sneesby failed at Nine, but first he gave the company a future by launching Stan
Unmade: After Sneesby
The Australian: Outside pick firms as next Nine boss
Capital Brief: Nine execs jostle for power as race to replace Sneesby as CEO begins
Sunday Telegraph: What’s the Buzz: Peter V’landys seeks meeting with Channel 10 over NRL rights

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: The government clear the decks on its policy logjam, with privacy reforms dumped until after the election; new AI rules, and heavy fines on scam ads. Plus, the boss of Disrupt Radio - where staff have gone unpaid for nearly two months - claims: “Start-ups are not for the salaried and superannuated”.

Privacy reforms move to the ‘too-hard’ basket; Don’t expect salaries and super, Disrupt Radio founder tells staff

It’s a frenetic day for government policy announcements with major consequences for the marketing industry.

Most notably, The Guardian has broken the news that the most consequential reforms to the Privacy Act have been moved to “the too-hard basket”, and are likely to be dumped to the other side of the election.

Also today, the government is announcing a crackdown on scam ads with fines for the digital platforms that carry them. What’s unclear is whether this will extend to media brands (most local news outlets) who carry Google Display Network content.

And the government has also kicked off a fortnight long consultation period around a new set of voluntary rules on AI usage.

Sticking with AI, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Cat McGinn and Abe Udy also examine the launch of Seven’s The AI Factory - is it substance or spin?

And the team discusses the latest on the ailing Disrupt Radio. Founder Ben Roberts told The Australian today that the real problem for unpaid staff isn’t their empty bank accounts, but that they’re not used to what he sees as the realities of life in a startup.

“Start-ups are not for the salaried and superannuated, and I made it very clear to people I personally hired that it might be a bit of a rollercoaster.

"It’s been particularly difficult for those who haven’t been through the rough and tumble of a start-up before,” he told The Oz.

Further reading:

The Guardian: Get a VPN and delete your cookies, Australia’s privacy laws are still lagging behind

“Are we the baddies?”

Brisbane Times: Up to $50m fine for banks, telcos, social media firms in war on scams
Australian Government: Voluntary AI Safety Standard
Seven West Media: Seven opens the AI Factory
Unmade: Disrupt Radio goes off air
The Australian: Disrupt Radio hits turbulence: unable to pay staff and the station is taken off DAB+

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition, streaming audio and video pull in advertising growth, while podcast audiences boom. Plus, we look back on results season and forward to Upfronts.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

A complimentary ticket to all of Unmade’s events, including HumAIn (2025), REmade (1 October), Unlock (31 October), and Compass(November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Video and audio streaming lead digital growth; Results season’s theme: at least the bad news was no worse than expected

In today’s episode of Start the Week, we cover off the new 2024 financial year data from the IAB. It reveals video streaming growing by an impressive 18.6% while connected TV is taking the biggest slice of that. Meanwhile, online audio has just had its best quarter.

We also discuss a seperate half yearly report into podcast listening habits from Commercial Radio & Audio and Triton Digital.

We look back upon a results season full of lots of bad news but few nasty surprises. And we look forward to Upfronts season which kicks of with Ooh Media’s Outfronts on Wednesday

Further reading:

Commercial Radio Australia: Australian Podcast Bi-annual report
IAB Australia: Internet Advertising Revenue Report FY24 & June Quarter
Unmade: SCA: The disappearing agency dollars
Unmade: 'Sometimes you have to cop to a bad quarter' - Ooh Media drops a mediocre set of numbers

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s conversation features demographer Bernard Salt on what really motivates Australians. Further down, the Unmade Index takes a breather after Nine’s financial results were no worse than expected.

Your membership also includes members-only content, access to our paywalled archives and your own copy of Media Unmade. Upgrade today.

Has Australia got it too good to be great?

As the lockdowns of Covid fade in people’s memories, some of the changes in trajectory are permanent, observes demographer and columnist Bernard Salt. Technology adoption and the pursuit of more space for home working remain. The Zoom room now takes priority over the pool room.

However, pursuit of quality of life was a longer term, underlying Australian trait, possibly driven by enjoying a more benevolent climate than European settlers had known.

“We're a free, open, easy, sporty, home-focused people, quality of life-focused people,” says Salt. “And it ain't going away. It was there in the 1950s. It'll be there in the 2050s.”

Another factor that shaped Australia’s destiny is geology, says Salt in his conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. While the more populous US was driven by farming, much of central Australia lacks the rick soils that would have been needed to settle it through intensive agriculture.

The conversation also covers how consumer mindset changes depending on life stage.

And in a question that was covered before this week’s news that the government has controversially closed the door on new topics for the next census, Salt explains why he wants to know more about the rise of pet ownership alongside the loneliness epidemic.

Boomtown is running a webinar today at 10am Eastern featuring Salt’s presentation at the Boomtown breakfast event a fortnight ago.

Unmade Index flat as Nine offers no more bad news

The Unmade Index stood still on Wednesday with the market offering a sigh of relief that Nine’s annual financial results were no worse than expected. The index lost just 0.1 points, to land on 456.5 points.

Nine finished the day up by 0.75% to a market capitalisation of $2.1bn. Seven West Media gained 2.94%.

The Market Limited, owner of Hot Copper, Gumtree and Carsguide, jumped nearly 30% despite reporting a drastic fall in profitability.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with more soon, including a deeper dive into the Nine numbers.

If you’re interested in retail media, don’t forget that our call for entries for the REmade Awards is live only until the end of the weekend.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: News publishers push back against media agencies’ brand safety default settings; AI search startup Perplexity gets into the advertising business; and X becomes an image disinformation engine.

How brand safety is throttling news revenues

Media companies are starting to push back against buying agencies’ brand safety policies after the admission of Group M boss Christian Juhl that by default most of his clients are kept off news sites. Juhl testified to Congress that just 1.28% of brand spend goes to online news.

In today’s podcast we discuss the difference between brands sensibly avoiding polarising mastheads, and defunding news altogether. We ask whether brands’ claims to be good social citizens align with decisions that make it harder for public service journalism to occur.

Also today, we look at Perplexity’s plans to take on Google in search with an advertising offering; Conde Nast’s deal with OpenAI and Donald Trump’s sharing of fake AI imagery.

Further reading:

The Guardian: The door to an Australian tech tax is clearly ajar. Can Labor make it happen?
Unmade: A digital levy for platforms now looks likely
Australian Financial Review: Lifestyle, culture websites argue for their slice of Meta’s pie
The Australian: Financial markets say FTA advertising market won’t improve until consumer confidence lifts
Unmade: Labor will do the TV industry a favour if it bans gambling ads
The Australian: Southern Cross Austereo takeover deal is pie in the sky – for now
The Australian: ABC’s pitch for Federal Court judge Michael Lee to take Media Watch hot seat declined

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade (with quite a few written words too).

Today, we talk to Foxtel’s streaming and advertising boss, Julian Ogrin; Seven’s slumping share price sees it at risk of being eclipsed by ARN Media; and we share more news of our retail media conference REmade.

‘We can be number one in digital advertising’ - Julian Ogrin on Kayo’s growth story

Tim Burrowes writes:

Julian Ogrin, the man tipped as the future boss of Foxtel Group, has been taking a higher profile of late. Over the last few days, he’s been the face (and voice) of the latest set of results from the company.

Ogrin is CEO of Foxtel’s streaming division including sports platform Kayo (“the home of Australian domestic sport”, as he puts it in today’s podcast), and entertainment platform Binge.

The rise of the two platforms - each of them passed more than 1.5m paying subscribers for the first time - is an unusual success story against a backdrop where most satellite and cable TV providers around the world have failed to react to the disruption of changing consumer habits.

Last week, News Corp publicly hung a “for sale” sign on Foxtel Group, of which it owns two-thirds. Telstra owns the other third. The company flagged “third party interest” in what looks like an attempt to flush out other potential bidders.

The urgency is because these numbers may be as good as they gets for Foxtel.

For Kayo, the fourth quarter is the one where local footy fans return for the season before beginning to churn away again. And looming in the next few months is the next NRL deal negotiation. Foxtel currently shares the rights with Nine, which will inevitably chase the full package this time, to spread across its subscription platform Stan too. The all-or-nothing battle will be an expensive one if Foxtel is to win it.

And Binge is almost certainly only months away from losing its HBO content to a local launch of Warner Discovery’s streaming service Max.

So now is the time to sell Foxtel - and for Ogrin - to sell the message of the company’s streaming growth.

In today’s conversation he alludes to a subtle repositioning of what Kayo (and Foxtel) stand for when it coms to sport. He talks about domestic sport five times. Having lost the English Premier League to Optus Sport in 2015, perhaps Formula One, last renewed in 2022, will be next to go.

The interview also covers the question of Kayo’s price. By global standards the $25-per-month entry level price, or full package for $35, is low. Ben Shepherd, who is often right about such things, predicted last week that we may see the price rise towards $50.

Ogrin hints: “We used to have three tiered products and we came back to two. Maybe we go back to three.”

Naturally, we asked Ogrin about the succession plans when the time comes to replace Delany. Naturally, he navigated around the question.

We also pushed him on the number of sign ups to aggregation service Hubbl. He used the word “proud” twice but declined to share numbers.

Ogrin also has Foxtel Media, the company’s advertising sales house, reporting in to him. Even in a down market, the division has reported growth. Ogrin claims Kayo is the only scalable advertising solution for streaming in the market. “We’re talking about seven hours of highly engaged viewing a week”.

“In the next 12 to 24 months we can be number one in digital advertising and we’re just going to go for it.”

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with another newsletter tomorrow.

If you’re interested in retail media, don’t forget that discounted earlybird tickets are on sale for another four days for the next edition of REmade on October 1. And our call for entries for the REmade Awards is live for just another fortnight.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: The call is coming from inside the house as Nine’s papers highlight disquiet over the company’s share buyback and Domain’s leadership; we look at the first edition of the reincarnated Cosmopolitan Australia; and the latest in AI.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Nine’s Foxtel takeover talks revealed as Cosmo returns

Six years after Bauer Media killed it off, Cosmopolitan Australia is back on the newsstands. In today’s audio-led edition of the Unmade podcast, we take a look at that first edition of Cosmo.

Plus, a revelation that Nine talked to News Corp about buying Foxtel; what reads like a subtle hit on the management team at the Nine-aligned Domain in the Australian Financial Review, and suggestions that Nine’s share buyback program has been a fizzer.

And in the world of AI, have we hit the trough of disillusionment?

Further reading:

Unmade: As good as it gets - Foxtel on the block
Capital Brief: Nine and News Corp deal talks add to Foxtel intrigue
Australian Financial Review: REA’s success exposes shrinking Domain
Brisbane Times: The $220 million ‘double-edged sword’ that’s bothering Nine
Cosmopolitan Australia: Tones And I Is Ready For Her Close Up

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we talk to author and Crikey proprietor Eric Beecher as he publishes a book condemning the power of media moguls. And further down, the Unmade Index bounces back a little after slumping on Monday and then losing some more on Tuesday.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

‘They do it to make money and they do it to wield power’

In today’s audio-led conversation, we talk to one of the leaders of Australia’s independent media sector, Eric Beecher.

A former editor-in-chief of the Sydney Morning Herald early in his career, Beecher has been involved in building and selling two big publishing businesses, and is currently proprietor of Private Media whose flagship is trouble-making daily newsletter Crikey.

Last week, Beecher’s new book, The Men Who Killed The News, was published by Simon & Schuster. In it, he takes aim at media moguls around the world who use their influence for their own ends. A major focus is the Murdoch family. Beecher has gone from working for Rupert Murdoch and selling a business to what was then News Ltd, to being an influential critic of the company and being unsuccessfully sued for defamation by Lachlan Murdoch.

The conversation also covers the imperfection of the industry-funded Australian Press Council (“the lesser of evils”) his views on the sort of public interest journalism that deserves to be publicly funded (“It’s about scrutinzing power and government. I do not believe it includes lifestyle journalism”) and what’s likely to happen in the Murdoch family’s new succession battle.

Beecher describes the unregulated influence of owning a media company as “the loophole in democracy”.

We talked to Private Media CEO Will Hayward last year:

Unmade Index slide ends

The Unmade Index recovered slightly yesterday after its drops of 3.6% and 1.2% to start the week. Yesterday the Unmade Index improved by 1.08% to 477.9 points.

Among the larger stocks, printing and marketing services group IVE did best, growing by 3.4%. Seven West Media was up by 3% after hitting a four year low on Tuesday.

Enero, owner of agencies including BMF, hit its own four year low yesterday, dropping to a market capitalisation of $106m

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

We’ll be back with another newsletter tomorrow.

If you’re interested in retail media, don’t forget that discounted earlybird tickets are on sale for another 12 days for the next edition of REmade on October 1. And our call for entries for the REmade Awards is now live.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

In today’s audio-led edition, the theme of the week is government intervention in betting ads; airline failures and the social media landscape

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Government set to back off on betting ad ban; Could Rex have marketed itself differently?; Digital levy looms

The Australian government is currently navigating tricky questions about where to intervene across the media and business world.

In a proposed crackdown on betting ads, the government seems to be watering down its threat to ban them from TV. Instead it might limit gambling brands to two ads per hour, which would create premium inventory for the networks. Meanwhile, the networks are asking for another discount on what they pay to access the public airwaves.

The government is also weighing up what intervention might be needed to save regional airline Rex. Should the airline have stayed focused on the country?

And a major new intervention around the digital platforms is looming, including the possibility of a digital levy.

Further reading:

The Guardian: ‘A total cop-out’ if Albanese government refuses blanket ban on gambling ads, Pocock says
Australian Financial Review: TV networks to demand fee relief as $40m wagering hole opens up
Unmade: The levy is breaking cover

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we recap one of the most talked-about sessions at Unmade’s HumAIn conference. And further down, the Unmade Index surges on new data suggesting inflation may be back under control.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

How AI is already changing life for news breakers

While the audience at HumAIn voted down the debate motion that AI is an extinction level event for media, its impact on the business of journalism is nonetheless undeniable.

In a conversation moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, we brought together a panel of news practitioners to discuss how generative AI is already changing practices in journalism and the publishing business model. Our panellists:

Melanie Withnall, Head of News and Information, Southern Cross Austereo
Michael Davis, Research Fellow, Centre for Media Transition
Shaun Davies, Responsible AI Consultant
Ricky Sutton, Author, Future Media

The topics tackled included how news organisations are already using AI, combating AI as a source of disinformation, using AI as a storytelling tool; the place for news media if generative search wipes out direct traffic, the challenges of algorithmic biases and the ethics of accountability.

Melanie Withnall has since announced she would be moving back to the ABC as head of continuous news, audio and video. She is due to finish at SCA tomorrow.

Unmade Index back above 500

It was an afternoon of optimism on the Unmade Index after new inflation numbers quelled fears that interest rates might go up again.

Our tracker of locally listed media and marketing stocks jumped by 2.77% on Wednesday to 500.7 points. This outperformed the wider ASX All Ordinaries which rose by 1.76%.

The index has been stuck below 500 points - signifying a halving of value of Australia’s media and marketing stocks since we started tracking them in 2022 - for the last two months.

It was a particularly good day for TV stocks, with Nine growing 4%, and Seven West Media growing 5.9%. Southern Cross Austereo, which is in both radio and TV, improved by 0.8%.

The two outdoor advertising stocks, Ooh Media and Motio, both bounced too, up by 3.6% and 5.3% respectively.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

I’m speaking at a couple of private industry events in Hobart today and tomorrow, and not planning a newsletter tomorrow unless something urgent breaks. If you’re in Hobart and want to say hello late on Friday afternoon, possibly over a beer, then please do drop me a note.

If you’re interested in retail media, don’t forget that earlybird tickets are now on sale for the next edition of REmade on October 1. And our call for entries for the REmade Awards is now live.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: Should Nine’s journos have gone on strike?;The AI content snake threatens to eat itself; and a chance to hear the Infinite Dial launch.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Are Nine’s journos right to strike?

Nine’s big Olympics fortnight in Paris has been overshadowed by its journalists going on strike. Several regular columns are missing from today’s papers. But should they even be striking?

Plus, we examine the latest developments in AI, including the launch of OpenAI’s own search offering, Google’s attempt to position Gemini as a blog writer, and Mutinex cofounder Henry Innis’s (bad) idea for resurrecting the axed Pedestrian brands.

And as bonus content we also share a replay of this month’s Infinite Dial webinar.

Further reading:

Unmade: Torch relays, both good and bad
The Australian: Nine’s strikers misread the room, and their audience
The Guardian: Nine journalists do their block over Scott Cam’s Paris Olympics appearance amid strike
7news: Nine CEO refuses to answer questions as newspaper reporters strike over pay as Olympics starts
The Australian: Fair’s fare – big tech must pay for the news it uses
LinkedIn / Henry Innis: Someone could start a very profitable local business using the remains of the Pedestrian licences
OpenAI: SearchGPT Prototype
CRA: The Infinite Dial 2024

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we talk to one of the world’s most celebrated advertising creatives, Sir John Hegarty.

Further down, the Unmade Index lifts back towards 500 points, but Seven West Media slumps back to its four-year low.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

‘Take off those f*g headphones’ - Sir John Hegarty on why creatives need to stay connected to the world

Ad agency BBH is among the most significant advertising agencies of the last half century. It may never quite have opened its doors in Australia - the closest it came was Singapore - but its local influence on advertising is still remarkable with many of its alumni having built agencies locally.

Created four decades ago by John Bartle, Nigle Bogle and John Hegarty, BBH is now owned by Publicis.

Sir John Hegarty - who also cofounded Saatchi & Saatchi and TBWA - is behind some of BBH’s most celebrated ads. In February he’ll be coming to Australia as part of his Business of Creativity course.

In this wide ranging conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Sir John discusses the sliding doors moment early in his career as an art director when he ended up paired with copywriter Charles Saatchi; how a black sheep came to define his career; and the nature of creativity.

He also explains his provocative premise that the reason why Sydney is not a great creative hub is because the weather is too good. "A lot of creativity comes out of struggle. You can’t sit outside a lovely beach bar and have a beer. You’ve got to go in and have an idea.”

Sir John also argues that the only way for creatives to stay relevant is to stay in touch not just with culture, but with their surroundings. “If you’re a creative person, please, will you take those f*g headphones off? Great creative people are absorbers. They absorb things around them all the time.”

He also tackles the separation of media from creative agencies: “one of the greatest mistakes our industry made”.

And he shares the anecdote of how his second thoughts about a weak campaign his agency had already sold in, became the acclaimed “Cream of Manchester” ad for beer brand Boddingtons.

Further links:

Business of Creativity
Training Day:
The Stormtrooper Scandal
Apple TV: Stones in Exile
Disney+: The Beatles: Get Back
Hegarty on Creativity: There are No Rules
Leonardo Da Vinci by Walter Isaacson
Backstory book subscription

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

If you’re interested in retail media, don’t forget that earlybird tickets are now on sale for the next edition of REmade on October 1. And our call for entries for the REmade Awards is now live.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade, featuring an interview with the editorial and commercial leaders of The Australian recorded to mark its 60th birthday.

The Australian’s Gunn and Gray: Is radio the next frontier?; platform friends and foes; and AI optimism

If Meta stops sharing news on its platforms to beat the News Media Bargaining Code, it should be forced to leave Australia altogether, the executive leading News Corp’s relationships with digital platforms argues.

The comments from Nicholas Gray come during a podcast conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. As part of the News Corp restructure, Gray has been given the expanded, dual role of MD and publisher of The Australian and the company’s stable of prestige publishing arm, along with MD of tech platform partnerships.

It comes as the industry waits on treasury minister Stephen Jones’ decision whether to designate Meta under the News Media Bargaining Code rules. In 2021, Google (owned by Alphabet) and Facebook (owned by Meta), fended off designation by voluntarily striking deals with local publishers. In March. Meta said it would not renew its deals.

If designation of Meta occurs, the company would be forced to go into binding arbitration with local companies that appear on the Australian Communications and Media Authority’s register of eligible news businesses over how much it must pay each of them to feature their content.

Facebook has indicated that it would prevent news links being shared, which would enable it to argue in arbitration that it would not need to pay the publishers.

During the conversation Gray argues: “We hope the Assistant Treasurer designates. Obviously then, Meta have a decision.

“They've threatened to turn off news as they have in Canada.

“If they're designated and if they try to turn off news, we say that won't be enough.

We prefer they didn't exit the market entirely, but if they're not prepared to pay for the news that's unquestionably an important part of their service, all of the research says that, and our data says that, then we don't think it's sustainable for them to operate in this market.

The call that Meta should be prevented from operating in Australia altogether was first hinted at by News Corp’s boss, executive chairman Michael Miller in his speech to the Australian Press Club last month. He called for the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, which created the bargaining code, to have “the power to ultimately block access to our country and our people if they refuse to play by our rules.”

The interview with Gray and The Australian’s editor-in-chief Michelle Gunn was timed for the 60th anniversary of The Australian, which celebrated the landmark over the weekend.

During the conversation, Gunn is asked about previous reports The Australian is contemplating launching its own radio station, similar to The Times Radio in the UK. Gunn acknowledges that “live audio” is on the table.

She says: “We are looking at our success in podcasting. I think it's an important tool for us to grow audience.

“Whether it takes the form of live audio or podcasts, and we're still looking at what the mix will be, and what form it will take.”

On the same radio question, Gray adds: “We need to be in new places with our brand and our news reporting in the forms that people want to consume it, however they may, in order to develop them as potential subscribers down the track.”

News Corp’s global chair Lachlan Murdoch already owns radio stations in Australia through Nova Entertainment.

The wide ranging conversation also covers the tough publishing environment; The Australian’s increasing use of vertical video, lessons learned from failed youth brand The Oz, how AI will change journalism, and The Australian’s battles with its rivals at Nine.

How Unmade yesterday covered Rupert Murdoch’s prediction that newspapers have no more than 15 years left in print

The Unmade Index rose again yesterday. Since the start of last week, our index of Australia’s listed media and marketing stocks has risen on six of the last eight trading days.

Yesterday saw the index lift by another 1.28%to 490.6 points.

Of the locally headquartered media stocks, Seven West Media was the best performer, up by 2.78%.

News Corp, dual listed in New York and Sydney, also had a good day, rising by 3.35%, to close at an all-time high market capitalisation of AU$24bn.

Only three smaller stocks - Enero Group, The Market Ltd and Motio - bucked the trend and fell.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

If you’re interested in retail media, don’t forget that earlybird tickets are now on sale for the next edition of REmade on October 1. And our call for entries for the REmade awards is now live.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today: Is Nine going to make a profit or loss on the Olympics? It depends who you ask, and how you calculate it; Will Mediaweek’s embattled owner sell to Vinyl Group? And the TV networks dial back their Upfronts plans

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Olympics countdown: Has Nine locked in enough sponsorship?

Nine says it’s made it into profit with its Paris Olympics sponsorship packages.

As we discuss on today’s Start the Week podcast, this morning Nine said it has booked $135m against the event, which CEO Mike Sneesby says will deliver a profit. It comes the same day The Australian reports that the Games will be a $60m loss for the network.

Sneesby - who recently saw staff cast a vote of no confidence against him as Nine makes rounds of redundancies - also revealed today that he would be going to the event, but just for one week.

Also on the podcast, we discuss the future of Mediaweek, with the AFR reporting today that owner Trent Thomas, subject of sexual harassment claims by staff, is considering selling the business to Brag Media owner Vinyl Group.

And also today, this year’s Upfronts are shaping up to be a lacklustre affair, with media bosses reluctant to be seen to be hosting big parties while staff lose jobs.

Further reading:

The Australian: Nine faces Olympic Games blowout, as rising costs and ad slump bite
Australian Financial Review: $135m and 5000 hours: Paris Olympics ‘profitable’, Nine CEO says
Unmade: Mediaweek sexual harassment allegations
Australian Financial Review: Mediaweek publisher flags potential sale of business with staff
Australian Financial Review: The TV networks’ big annual parties aren’t a good look this year

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we talk to Christian O’Connell, host of Melbourne’s top FM breakfast show. And further down, a slight recovery on the Unmade Index.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

‘Radio needs to change. It has to build a different model’ Why Christian O’Connell is ready to be networked

In today’s podcast we talk to Christian O’Connell, who arrived from the UK six years ago and took his show on Gold 104.3 to Melbourne’s number one breakfast show.

The conversation was based around the launch of O’Connell’s mentoring service, Finding Fire, but it was also a well timed opportunity to subtly remind a market distracted by the arrival of the Kyle and Jackie O Show into Melbourne that he’s the biggest voice in the FM market.

Gold’s owner ARN Media has been trying to mastermind a takeover and breakup of rival Southern Cross Austereo. Most likely that would have seen O’Connell move across to a national metro breakfast show on Triple M.

If a deal doesn’t happen - and there’s nothing currently on the table although it’s likely to return - O’Connell might instead see his show networked into Sydney on ARN’s WSFM, with Jonesy & Amanda - Brendan Jones and Amanda Keller - potentially making way by switching into a national drive slot.

In the conversation, O’Connell makes clear that he has been talking to ARN’s management, including CEO Ciaran Davis and chief content officer Duncan Campbell, about taking his live show into other markets.

“I want the show to be more widely available,” he tells Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. “That’s my drive for the next couple of years. I did a national show in the UK for 12 years and I loved it. So here, I want the show to be more available. I do something different and I think that’s of value.”

And O’Connell is talking about more than a “best bits” package. “The magic of radio for me is live. I always has been. There’s nothing better than when you hear a radio show and in the moment something opens up.”

The conversation also focuses on how O’Connell has developed as a leader of his team, including lifting them up when The Fox’s Fifi, Fev & Nick show briefly overtook them in the ratings.

But O’Connell insists that being number one is not what matters to him. “If I was to design a show to be number one, it would be really bland. It would be like The Fox. It would be made of blandishments. I have to make a radio show that is about my values.”

He also says that he deliberately resisted listening to the much talked about boundary-pushing first hour of Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson’s Kiis show into Melbourne, warning that rival shows are letting themselves be distracted by the arrival

“You’ve got to be really careful that you don’t let other shows and their mindsets bleed into your own. I’m hearing other shows that are doing that now. They’re changing in the wrong way.”

O’Connell also reveals that he still hankers after a return to talking about sport on the radio. In the UK he hosted the long running BBC sport-comedy show Fighting Talk. “One of the things I’d love to do is a version like that. That show was the most fun I’ve ever had in radio. It was a whole hour of opinions, arguments. Sports is entertainment and it should be treated like that.”

Meanwhile, O’Connell sees the networking of big shows like his and the Kyle & Jackie O Show as the direction the radio industry is taking. “It’s very clear what Ciaran’s direction is, what he wants to do. It’s very clear what I want to do. Radio here is ready for the next evolution.

“Kyle coming into Melbourne is the start of it. Radio needs to change. It has to build a different model.”

Unmade Index improves

The Unmade Index improved from Tuesday’s all time low, bouncing back by 1.28% to 466.5 points yesterday.

Nine recovered by 1.52% to a market cap of $2.1bn while IVE Group was up 2.57%.

The only stocks to fall were ooh Mediua, down by 0.74%, and Sports Entertainment group, off 7.14%

This week’s episode was edited by Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow

Have a great day.

Toodlepip

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: We look back on media’s most brutal week for a decade, and reflect on how things will play out in this new financial year. Plus, we round up the latest on how AI is changing the media and marketing world

Start the financial year by upgrading to an Unmade membership. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event;
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

What now for Australia’s media companies?; Meltwater unveils AI-PR play; Music companies and voiceover artists prepare for war

We start the new financial year by looking back at the final week of the last one. We assess what was perhaps the TV industry’s worst week, and we consider how that will reverberate into FY25.

Plus, we dive into the latest AI issues including the challenges for those who make their living as voiceover artists and the music industry. We also discuss Meltwater’s new AI-driven media monitoring tool, which launched today.

Further reading:

Unmade: F*g crazy week
The Australian: Mike Sneesby heads to Greece, as Nine’s newsrooms crumble
The Hollywood Reporter: Toys ‘R’ Us Debuts First Video Ad Using Sora, OpenAI’s Text-to-Video Tool
The Guardian: Cheap AI voice clones may wipe out jobs of 5,000 Australian actors
The Verge: The RIAA versus AI, explained
Meltwater: Meltwater unveils new Meltwater Copilot built in collaboration with Microsoft

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today, we talk to one of adland’s most experienced media executives Michael Anderson as he takes on the new challenge of chairing the ASX-listed research house Pureprofile.

Also in this post, the decapitation of most of Seven West Media’s leadership team spooks the Unmade Index.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the best three days to do it. Save 40% forever, with Unmade’s EOFY sale.

Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Pureprofile chair Michael Anderson prepares for the AI gold rush: ‘This is going to be the most disruptive technology the planet’s ever seen’

In today’s interview we talk to former Austereo boss Michael Anderson as he returns to the fray as chair of Pureprofile.

Anderson is one of Australian media’s most storied executives, having run Austereo when it was at the height of its powers before being taken over by Southern Cross Media. Anderson went on to be a board member of Fairfax Media and Ooh Media before taking on the thankless job of CEO of New Zealand’s Mediaworks.

The conversation - recorded the same day Anderson chaired his first Pureprofile board meeting - ranges across what generative AI-driven synthetic data means for the company (he argues it could be an opportunity); what his board needs to do to persuade the stock market to value the company more highly; and whether a company as small as Pureprofile still belongs on the ASX.

Anderson also reflects on the tough media landscape and the lessons that the decline of Mediaworks and its axing of Newshub has for Australian networks. “The value of having news as you lead into prime time became so expensive that the value equation collapsed. I could easily see that trajectory occurring at some point in the future in Australia.”

He also discusses how advertisers have abruptly turned their backs on Australia’s broadcasters: “This has been coming for a long time and seems to have taken forever to get here. And then all of a sudden is really happening quickly."

“Given that we're as close to an economic recession as we're going to get, if not tip over, there doesn't seem to be any let up to what media is experiencing in advertising in the short to medium term, which means it could actually be quite a sustained structural shift.”

Anderson also discussed what happened to the merged Southern Cross Austereo after he left, including the defection of Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson to ARN when SCA boss Rhys Holleran decided not to offer them a long term contract. Having paid $740m for Austereo, the whole company has now declined to less than a $150m valuation. Says Anderson: “They've done a lot of things that that have contributed to that - so some of that has been management failure, board failure. Losing Kyle and Jackie O would be one of those things you'd put into the basket of going ‘that was unnecessary’.”

Red day on the Unmade Index

The Unmade Index saw a hefty decline yesterday as the share market reacted to Seven West Media’s moves to remove most of its top management tier. The index fell by 2.88% to 473.1 points, almost at its all time low.

Seven’s nearest rival Nine declined 4.18% to a market capitalisation below $2.2bn for the first time since the Covid crisis. Outdoor company Ooh Media fell 4.51%. ARN Media lost another 0.77%.

Today’s podcast was edited by the excellent people at Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: Which door will the SCA management choose? And, to very few people’s surprise, the AI companies do not appear to be playing fair when crawling publishing content.

Have you considered becoming a paying member of Unmade to get the full picture? Only our paying members receive our members-only Tuesday analysis; get access to our archive where all our content is paywalled after two months; get their own copy of Media Unmade; and receive discounts on all our events.

Become a member today.

Will it be The Cat’s week?

If The Australian is correct, this may be the week where the board of Southern Cross Austereo makes up its mind about whether it wants to get into bed with Antony Catalano’s Australian Community Media.

As we discuss in the podcast, the choice boils down to two alternative paths - the pureplay audio future visualised by SCA’s management where the company’s Listnr investment begins to pay for itself; or an attempt to become a multi-platform regional powerhouse.

Also today, there’s growing evidence that AI companies are scraping news sites without permission. Meanwhile, local publishers with traffic built around SEO are becoming increasingly alarmed by Google’s AI Overviews product which threatens to cost them clicks by giving a full answer on the page.

Further reading:

The Australian: Southern Cross ‘heavily engaged’ on ACM merger bid
Australian Financial Review: Publishers fear this new Google AI feature will kill their traffic
Reuters: Exclusive: Multiple AI companies bypassing web standard to scrape publisher sites, licensing firm says
Unmade: Is it blackmail?
Unmade: Domain becomes biggest part of Nine’s worth

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today, we talk to the creator of Australian media’s most enduring youth media brand, Pedestrian TV cofounder Chris Wirasinha, as he begins to scale up his new venture Linkby. And also in this post, the Unmade Index wipeout has stretched into another week, particularly for audio stocks.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

‘It felt like everybody was getting paid but us’ Linkby’s Chris Wirasinha on helping publishers monetise their links

In today’s episode of The Unmakers we talk to Chris Wirasinha about his latest venture in the publishing world, Linkby.

Like several entrepreneurs who came out of the media and marketing world, Wirasinha has spotted a more scalable tech opportunity as a supplier to his old ecosystem. Just as Matt Farrugia and Henry Innis broke out of WPP to start media mix modelling system Mutinex, and Ben Gunn and Nathan Powell left Nine to start influencer platform Fabulate, Wirasinha is doing the same thing in the space between affiliate marketing and PR.

This week, Linkby announced its third round of venture capital funding - a $4m Series A round, to grow its teams in the US, UK and Australia.

Linkby provides a new way for publishers to be paid by brands for links in editorial content.

During the conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Wirasinha reveals that Linkby is seeing $30m of marketing spend pass through its pipes, meaning that based on its 30% commission, the company is hitting annualised revenue approaching $10m.

As well as discussing the Linkby model, why he came together with his Linkby cofounders and the factors behind choosing a VC-funded path, Wirasinha reflects on how he and Oscar Martin achieved a big number exit from Pedestrian, and the current state of the media market.

Hear more about how the founders of Pedestrian TV exited to Nine:

Nine lifts the Unmade Index

A better performance by Nine helped lift the whole Unmade Index on Wednesday, despite another tough day for several stocks.

Nine lifted by 1.8%, taking its market capitalisation back above $2.2bn. The Unmade Index followed, rising by 0.76% to 476.2 points.

It was a bad day for the major audio stocks, with Southern Cross Austereo falling below a $150m market cap for the first time in its history after losing another 3.85%. ARN Media lost nearly 1.5%. Both stocks have lost more than 20% of their valuation over the last month alone.

Meanwhile, Seven West Media lost 2.9% to return to its lowest point since 2020.

Today’s podcast was edited by the excellent people at Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: Why are women turning away from news?; The dawn of synthetic data - good news for marketers, bad news for research companies?; and comedian Mark Humphries joins Seven News

It’s a great day to become a paying member of Unmade. You get:

Member-only pricing for next week’s HumAIn conference
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Upgrade today

Robots replace focus groups; why are women avoiding news?; Mark Humphries joins Seven News

This morning’s episode was recorded in a quiet corner at this morning’s launch of University of Canberra’s 2024 Digital News Report. We examine the report’s findings, hot off the press.

Plus, in another busy week for AI, the moment when it overtakes humans comes closer, and synthetic data becomes a real threat for research companies

And in a smart move, Seven News hires comedian Mark Humphries.

Further reading:

Unmade: The defederalisation of News Corp
The Australian: Big tech not above the law: Miller
The Australian: Media and Arts union calls for urgent action on AI dangers
AVC Experience+: Meet 15m consumers in their cultural comfort zone
Puck: Paramount sage reaches finale

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio led edition of Unmade. Today, we talk to the newly arrived regional CEO of media mix modelling firm Mutinex, Mat Baxter, along with one of its cofounders, Henry Innis.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s six-state Compass event in November;
Weekly member-only content;
Access to our paywalled archives - everything gets locked down after two months;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

‘I wouldn’t call it ego; I’d call it highly opinionated’: Mutinex founder Henry Innis on working with Mat Baxter

In the nearly two decades I’ve been covering the Australian media and marketing beat, perhaps the biggest trouble magnet has been Mat Baxter. For a journalist writing about an industry where people complain that executives lack the personality and substance they used to, trouble magnet is a positive, by the way.

Baxter was one of a trio who irritated the establishment by blowing up the orthodoxy around media planning with the creation of Naked Communications.

He then raced up within the big agency world as chief strategy officer at Mediacom. It was a time when the agency won lots of business as Baxter worked alongside the giant collared (and giant egoed) Toby Jenner, who these days is global CEO of Wavemaker.

The pairing of the two big personalities only lasted 18 months before Baxter moved over to UM where he repeated the trick of turning the agency into a business-winning machine, working for IPG Mediabrands boss Henry Tajer.

When Tajer was promoted to global boss, Baxter joined the entourage. He moved to a global role in New York, and when Tajer’s time running IPG quickly blew up, Baxter moved upwards, as global CEO of Initiative.

He then went on to take charge of IPG’s agency Huge, where his efforts to reengineer it became one of the foci of Michael farmer’s book Madison Avenue makeover.

Since Baxter announced his return to Australia, the industry has been keen to know what he would do next, with the possibility of him joining Mutinex in the frame for many weeks before it became official.

Unmade first featured Mutinex in an episode of The Unmakers two years ago. At that point cofounders Henry Innis and Matt Farrugia had not long evolved to talking about themselves as a software-as-a-service platform, rather than a consultancy or agency. And they were still called Mutiny before a name change forced by a collision of global ambitions and trademark considerations.

Since then, the company has grown to a six figure valuation, and you wouldn’t bet against it becoming a billion dollar unicorn if it stays on track. They are mostly describing themselves as Mutinex Growth OS, as they position themselves as the operating system, or dashboard, of media mix modelling.

Notably in today’s podcast conversation, featuring Baxter and Innis, Baxter uses the Growth OS brand far more than he does the name Mutinex. (Another rebrand in prospect?)

After this month’s announcement of Baxter as CEO for APAC, the single question that came up most in industry gossip was whether there is room for the egos of Baxter and Innis in the same organisation. They tackled that question during the podcast conversation.

Innis argues that in a high growth organisation, it’s possible to channel that dynamic outwards. Baxter says his role is to act as a “whisperer” to Innis and Farrugia.

Since Baxter’s appointment, the duo have been accused of hubris. In an interview with Media Week, Innis declared “There will be no other tech company shipping product as quickly as us within six months,” adding: “Good luck to anybody else.”

In their B&T chat Innis compared his relationship with Baxter to that of Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg with the executive who commercialised the platform, Sheryl Sandberg.

For those covering the industry, the unfiltered, opinionated nature of Innis and Baxter’s personalities is no bad thing - not least when the digital supply chain is so murky. Asked whether Baxter is ready to be a cop on the beat, the first part of his answer: “Of course.”

Take a listen.

When Unmade first talked to Mutinex:

Index drops further below 500

Having dropped below 500 points for the first time on Tuesday - meaning a halving of the value of Australia’s media and marketing businesses over the last two-and-a-bit years - the Unmade Index lost some more ground yesterday, dropping another 0.65% to 495.1 points.

Southern Cross Austereo had the worst of it, losing nearly 5% as the market contemplates a slow radio advertising market, the flatering ARN Media takeover bid and an alternative propsal from Australian Community Media looking to bring it into the local newspaper market.

The only stock to rise yesterday was Domain, up 1.4%

Today’s podcast was edited by the excellent people at Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow. With Nine’s CEO on the precipice, News Corp restructuring and ACM proprietor Antony Catalano in the hunt for Southern Cross Austereo, there’s a lot happening in media this week.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. In today’s audio-led edition: Nine’s scandal over behaviour of its ex-news boss threatens to engulf CEO Mike Sneesby; winners start to emerge in the News Corp restructure; and is Cam Blackley’s Bureau of Everything the next stage of agency evolution?

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn (tomorrow) and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Tough questions about how much Nine management knew about news boss Darren Wick’s behaviour

Nine’s CEO Mike Sneesby has returned early from holiday to deal with an escalating crisis over the company’s handling of complaints about the alleged behaviour of former director of news and current affairs Darren Wick towards women who worked for him.

In a key development today, The Australian reports: “It’s understood multiple non-disclosure agreements have been signed by female staff at Nine over interactions they had with Wick in recent years.” The claim about Nine using NDAs is not verified.

This followed the weekend’s reporting by the Sydney Morning Herald - owned by Nine - that Wicks “has been accused of engaging in drunken, lecherous behaviour in what furious staff say was “an open secret” for more than a decade.”

For legal reasons, Unmade should point out that it does not claim that the allegations being made about Wick are true; only that they are being reported.

Also today, former M&C Saatchi executives Cam Blackley and Em Taylor have launched a new creative offering, Bureau of Everything.

And the executive winners in the forthcoming News Corp shakeup are starting to emerge. Reportedly, Nicholas Gray will head up the prestige division; Mark Reinke will lead metro and sport; and Pippa Leary will get the free division.

And what the hell were Canva thinking with their rap battle?

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Canva, in the US, lifts the lid on its plan to win over Wall Street
Daily Telegraph: Nine’s sordid ‘cover-up’: ex news director’s alleged inappropriate behaviour kept secret
Sky News: Channel Nine star's HR complaint against Darren Wick over inappropriate behaviour was leaked directly to former news boss
Sydney Morning Herald: Former Nine News boss Darren Wick accused by staff of drunken, lecherous behaviour
Capital Brief: Nine CEO touches down as scandal over former exec intensifies
The Australian: Seven West news boss Anthony De Ceglie urges staff to ignore the TV ratings
The Australian: Advertising guns launch office offering ‘end to end’ strategy and creativity
Australian Financial Review: Winners and losrers emerge as News Corp’s major restructure takes shape

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow with a special post for our paying members explaining all the issues around today’s developments in the SCA takeover battle.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today, as Mamamia’s new CEO Natalie Harvey steps up, she joins co-founder Jason Lavigne to discuss where the independent publisher goes from here. And further down in the post, the Unmade Index falls to a record low.

Mamamia hits scale as Harvey takes the helm

For the best part of a decade, Natalie Harvey was one the best known faces of the business of TV advertising, rising to national sales director of Seven West Media. Earlier this year, she moved away from television to join Australia’s largest (depending how you measure it) independent publishing house, Mamamia.

This month Harvey stepped up from chief revenue officer to CEO. Jason Lavigne, who co-founded the business with his partner Mia Freedman more than 15 years ago, moves in to the new role of executive chairman.

In today’s podcast interview, Lavigne and Harvey discuss how the business has developed from a single blog to a 150-staff organisation with a powerful publishing platform, Australia’s eighth biggest podcast publisher (ahead of the likes of Nine and Nova) and a thriving agency, Squad, which includes clients beyond its advertising roster. Along with growing subscriber revenue, short form video is Mamamia’s latest development area.

During the conversation, Lavigne signals a route to the “highly profitable” company hitting revenues of $50m (it’s not there yet), and addresses the obvious question of whether his change of role is a prelude to an exit (he claims only 15% of his work is done).

Meanwhile, Harvey makes the point that her move to Mamamia was about her own development and not a vote against TV in which she remains “a staunch believer”

They also discuss how Mamamia has becoming increasingly purpose-driven, around its mission of making the world a better place for women and girls.

The company is also leaning into AI, including “Sam” its new artificial voice available to create and articulate scripts for brands featuring in its podcasts. The podcast features Sam in action.

Mamamia may be slightly less vulnerable than some publishers to the likely loss of traffic if Facebook is designated under the News Media Bargaining Code and removes news links from its platform. However, Lavigne concedes it will have an effect. During the conversation, he argues that the potential solution is for more effective taxation of platform revenue before the profits end up offshore.

How we assessed Mamamia three years ago:

It isn’t too late to get a ticket to next week’s HumAIn - our half-day deep dive into how AI is changing the media and marketing world. Check out the program here.

Index slips by another 3%

The Unmade Index slipped to another record low on Wednesday, losing 2.77% to land on 506.2 points.

The fall in share prices was specific to the media and marketing sector, with the wider ASX All Ordinaries finishing almost flat yesterday.

Much of the weight on the index came from the biggest locally listed stock (excluding News Corp which is dual listed in the US and Australia) Nine, which slumped by nearly 4%.

Fellow TV company Seven West Media lost 2.4%, and Southern Cross Austereo lost more than 3%.

Today’s podcast was edited by our favourite people at Abe’s Audio.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow. I’ll be keeping an eye on the ASX today. It’s tipped to open down. There’s a very real possibility that todayis the day where we hit the milsetone of The Unmade Index falling below 500 points, a loss of 50% sine it began. If so, I’ll be reflecting on that threshold.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: ARN refuses to let its Southern Cross Austereo takeover bid die; and ChatGPT starts talking back - why that matters to the marketing world.

It’s a great day to become a paying member of Unmade. You get:

Member-only pricing for next week’s HumAIn conference
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

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The all-seeing, all-talking AI

In the space of two days, the pace of change in AI accelerated again. OpenAI unveiled its upgraded ChatGPT4o - complete with “multi modal” abilities to listen and look. And Google launched a whole series of updates to its Gemini AI system. In today’s edition of Start the Week, Cat McGinn, curator of Unmade’s HumAIn conferece explains what it all means for the marketing world. We then bring ChatGPT in on the conference call.

Also today, ARN Media refuses to give up on its battle to take control of Southern Cross Austereo.

Further reading:

Unmade: A baller move from OpenAI, but who will end up paying for all this ‘free’ technology?;
Guardian: CEO of world’s biggest ad firm targeted by deepfake scam
Bloomberg: Apple Set to Unveil AI Strategy at June 10 Developers Conference
HumAIn: Full program
The Australian: ARN Media forges ahead with potential takeover plans of Southern Cross Austereo
Australian Financial Review: ARN Media’s M&A record holds out for elusive win

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn (plus a cameo from ChatGPT-4o).

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade, in which we talk to the industry veteran in charge of delivering News Corp’s advertising revenues, Louise Barrett. Further down, a good day on the Unmade index for Australia’s TV players.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn (May 28) and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade.

Is it time for the news industry to revive the ida of a local premium content exchange? Louise Barrett thinks so

This week saw News Corp run it’s D_Coded sessions, the news company’s version of Upfronts, with a digital focus.

Among the new offerings shared with marketers and media agency executives were ways of making more of News Corp’s large logged in audience. Google’s long-delayed, but now imminent, deprecation of third party cookies on Chrome may work to the benefit of publishers and media companies with big opted-in audiences.

For News Corp that includes adding to the capabilities of its Intent Connect data offering, and the introduction of its ecommerce play Shoppable ScrollX.

Barrett’s conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes also uncovered the information that the idea of a cross industry premium content exchange is back on the agenda. News Corp’s MD of client product Pippa Leary previously worked on setting up the APEX Advertising exchange which was a joint venture of Nine and Fairfax Media before those companies merged.

With increasing client concerns about programatic fraud and low quality Made For Advertising (MFA) sites, a premium content exchange potentially offers marketers the ability to reach a higher quality audience programatically.

In the UK, the Ozone Project, owned by news publishers including News UK, Reach, Guardian News & Media and Telegraph Media Group is well established. Barrett reveals that she and her colleague Leary held talks with Ozone during a UK visit. “I’m a big supporter of pulling something like this together. There are discussions happening. It’s a very strong ambition,” she says.

Also under consideration is the idea of setting up an academy aimed at educating new media agency staff about the strengths of print publications.

Good day on the index for TV and outdoor, as SCA tries to slam to the door on ARN.

A solid trading day for Seven West Media, Nine and Ooh Media helped lift the Unmade Index by 0.62% to 536.8 points on Wednesday

Nine rose by nearly 1% to return close to a market capitalisation of $2.5bn; SWM surged by more than 2.5% and Ooh lifted by 1.85%

Yesterday afternoon also saw Southern Cross Austereo attempt to slam the door on ARN Media’s takeover bid. The SCA board issued a statement saying the updated bid was unattractive for shareholders and would be costly to execute.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, editing and production.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our audio-led Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today: ARN Media fights to save its Southern Cross Austereo takeover as Anchorage Capital Partners gets cold feet; a crucial week in Parliament for TV sports rights; and is Open AI about to launch its Google challenger?

Can ARN Media save its collapsing Southern Cross Austereo takeover bid?

In a series of dramatic developments over the last 24 hours, ARN Media’s takeover bid for Southern Cross Austereo appears close to collapse.

ARN’s bid partner Anchorage has been spooked by declining revenues and has pulled the plug. Instead, ARN this morning told the ASX it has come up with a new, even more complicated, plan to go it alone before relisting a new version of SCA on the stock exchange.

In today’s podcast, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes explains what happened over the weekend, why Anchorage got cold feet, and how ARN is proposing to save the deal.

We also discuss what may be another huge move by OpenAI, with reports that it will launch a competitor to Google’s search, later today.

And we preview a key week for the TV industry in Parliament, with sports rights and due prominence legislation on the agenda tomorrow.

Further reading:

Unmade: Is the SCA takeover about to die of old age?
ASX - ARN Media: Update on Non-Binding Indicative Proposal to Acquire SCA
ASX - SCA: Withdrawal of Consortium’s Proposal
Reuters: OpenAI plans to announce Google search competitor on Monday, sources say
Australian Financial Review: Showtime! Media CEOs’ last stand with Foxtel over future of TV
Australian Financial Review: Greg Hywood - New laws risk the end of free sports on tv
Unmade: TV gets a win
Unmade: Maybe for the last time, the free TV machine wins on anti-siphoning

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Time to leave you to start your week. We’ll be back with more tomorrow with a special post for our paying members explaining all the issues around today’s developments in the SCA takeover battle.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we’ve an episode of our series focusing on industry startups, The Unmakers. We talk to the co-founders of fast growing influencer platform Fabulate. And further down, mixed fortunes on the Unmade Index.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn (May 28) and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Ben Gunn and Nathan Powell on Fabulate’s five year push into the technology of influencer marketing

A noticeable trend in adland is that nobody is making it big by starting another media company or advertising agency.

However, those working inside the legacy players have been perfectly placed to understand the problems of brands and publishers, and work out how to solve them. The technology based solutions have the ability to scale globally in a way that media offerings and agencies do not.

Recent examples include media mix modelling platform Mutinex, started by WPP staffers Henry Innis and Matt Farrugia; micro influencer platform Tribe started by then 2Day FM presenter Jules Lund, and retail media platform Zitcha, which span out of media agency Hatched.

A further example which deserves a higher profile is Fabulate, whose founders include former Nine staffers Ben Gunn and Nathan Powell, along with Toby Kennett. Today’s podcast focuses on the Fabulate story.

Five years on, Fabulate barely counts as a start up any more. It employs more than 50 staff and manages campaigns to the value of millions of dollars. In the conversation, chief revenue officer Gunn and content and strategy boss Powell are cagier about revealing the platform’s own direct revenue, but they drop some hints.

In March, Fabulate was named best influencer marketing technology service by AiMCO (the Australian Influencer Marketing Council).

With its roots in text-based branded content, Fabulate is now deeply in the short form video influencer space, including TikTok, Instagram Reels and YouTube. The platform connects influencers to brands and manages workflow for marketing campaigns. It is also planning to gear up around LinkedIn influencers.

Along with being integrated into IPG Mediabrands’s Kinesso social offering, Fabulate is working with almost all Australia’s influencer agencies, as well as major PR agencies including Edelman.

The wide ranging conversation - which is part of Unmade’s ongoing The Unmakers series - covers Fabulate’s first five years, an overview of the fast changing influencer sector, and insights into where the company goes next.

Previous episodes of The Unmakers:

Unmade Index flat as TV networks look up

The Unmade Index battled itself into equilibrium on Wednesday, with broad falls across most of the list counterbalanced by improvements from Nine and Seven West Media.

With the index moving up by just 0.2 points to 546.1, Nine did much of the heavy lifting, rising by 1.3%, while Seven was up 2.5%.

Meanwhile Ooh Media, IVE Group, ARN Media and Southern Cross Austereo all slumped.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, editing and production.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

We’ll be taking a one-day publishing break tomorrow.

I’m in Sydney today at the Australian Associational of National Advertisers Reset conference (one question I’m considering: is the “growth” theme of the event in keeping with the mood music around sustainability? Your thoughts please.)

And tomorrow afternoon I’m jumping on QF1 to London for Advertising Week Europe. It looks as though the upgrade gods have not smiled upon me. Saturday’s Best of the Week will be brought to you from deep in the bowels of the cheap seats.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our audio-led Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today: Nine under pressure from investors as questions are asked about CEO Mike Sneesby’s behaviour to staffer; SXSW lineup unveiled

Today:

Nine boss Mike Sneesby gets ready to front the Macquarie investor conference, as The Australian reports that he puts pressure on one of his journalists over coverage of Stan. And SXSW revleas its first speakers for October’s Sydney event - it’s AI-a-gogo.

Further reading:

Unmade: How news is becoming a collective industry
Capital Brief: Nine facing pressure to cut TV costs amid ad market rout
Unmade: Rock bottom delayed
The Australian: Did Nine chief Mike Sneesby break an unwritten rule?
SXSW: SXSW Sydney reveals first look at 2024 speakers and sessions

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we’ve an episode of our series focusing on industry startups, The Unmakers. We talk to the latest entrant into the increasingly competitive marketing mix modelling sector, Jordan Taylor-Bartels, the co-founder of Prophet.

In today’s episode of The Unmakers, we talk to Jordan Taylor-Bartels about Prophet, the analytics platform he’s been quietly building for the last three years, before finally publicly launching it in March.

There were several industry investors attached to the launch, including Australian Community Media proprietor Antony Catalano, and ex-Dentsu (now Bastion) executive Cheuk Chiang. To add to the spice, Chiang was an early investor in media mix modelling platform Mutinex, although he parted ways early in the project.

Although recently an owner of indie media agency Magic, much of Taylor-Bartels career has been spent outside of media, including at a couple of Elon Musk companies in the US. At the start of his career, Taylor-Bartels studied media and journalism at RMIT and created his own culture magazine, Helmet.

In today’s conversation, Taylor-Bartels explains his approach to simplifying the variabilities of marketing, talks through the launch team and plots a path for where Prophet grows from here.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, editing and production.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our audio-led Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today: Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson smash onto the Melbourne airwaves, and go full bore from the first talk break; Cosmo magazine is coming back; and the coming war between Australia and the digital giants

Have you considered becoming a paying member of Unmade to get the full picture?

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Melbourne makes up its mind about the K+J Show

Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson exploded onto the Melbourne airwaves this morning with a family-unfriendly half hour opening talk break that kept the bleeper operator busy (we include a small excerpt in today’s podcast). Introducing the team behind the Sydney-based Kyle & Jackie O Show to the Kiis Melbourne audience, Sandilands and Henderson ranged through topics including sex acts, sexual preferences and sexually transmitted diseases.

There were also moments of dead air where local feeds failed to fill the ad break, for the digital audio stream at least, as ARN grappled with the technicalities of a live national show with local inserts.

And ARN pulled a switcheroo on Fox FM, upgrading the prize in their secret sound contest to $200,000

Also today, we examine Australian’s increasingly fractious relationship with the digital behemoths including Google, TikTok, Facebook and Twitter.

And Cosmo is returning.

Further reading:

New York Times: Congress Passed a Bill That Could Ban TikTok. Now Comes the Hard Part
Capital Brief: Leadership vacuum at TikTok Australia as US ban looms
Australian Financial Review: Small player Twitter
Australian Financial Review: Facebook shifts more than $1.1b offshore as local profits rise 36pc
Australian Financial Review: Google hides its total revenue from Australia in new accounts

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: TikTok piles the pressure on the television industry as US legislators put the squeeze on the short form video platform; the TV revenue slump still hasn’t hit bottom; how consumers are making brand compromises in the cost of living crunch.

Today:

The US House of Representatives voted over the weekend to force the Chinese company ByteDance to sell TikTok or be banned. That means the law could be on Joe Biden’s desk for signing within days if the Senate votes on it this week. If ByteDance refuses to sell, will Australia ban TikTok too?;
Seven had one of the worst weeks in the company’s history. Analysts describe it as a “one trick pony”, and that TV trick is no longer working;
Hard-up consumers are disguising their Aldi tomato sauce in big brand bottles;
The ABC has upped its marketing spend, but is $6m a quarter enough?

Further reading:

The Guardian: US House passes bill that could lead to total TikTok ban
Australian Financial Review: TV networks have lost 83pc of young viewers to TikTok, YouTube
Unmade: If a TV network puts a roof over a rapist’s head, employs a war criminal and pays a creep it might just have a culture problem
The Australian: Bleak outlook for Seven West Media shares, says analyst
The Australian: Seven launch internal investigation over incorrectly naming the wrong Bondi killer on Weekend Sunrise
Unmade: Born to be mild: New Seven boss’s first staff memo
The Australian: Consumer brand loyalty declines in hard times, research finds
The Australian: ABC’s spending on advertising, marketing and promotions has soared, new data shows

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today we talk to Anthony DeCeglie, the editor-in-chief of Seven West Media’s Perth-based news masthead operations including The West Australian, Perth Now and the group’s newest text-led news brand - The Nightly.

‘There’s nothing more impactful than a front page’: Anthony DeCeglie on why The Nightly is edition-led

Today’s conversation features two players from Australia’s news landscape.

At the end of February, the country got a new national news brand - The Nightly, published from the same stable as The West Australian. Although a digital-only product which covers breaking news, The Nightly is centred around an evening edition, complete with impactful front page, and the ability for advertisers to buy full page ads inside.

The man who has led the project is Anthony DeCeglie, who also heads up The West Australian. In today’s conversation, he explains the rationale behind the launch, rebuts the theory that the main reason was to deliver greater influence, and reveals that the advertising-supported project has been profitable from the start.

Also participating the conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes is Vanessa Lyons, CEO of industry body ThinkNewsBrands. According to Lyons, The Nightly taps into a readership trend of a spike in evening reading.

She also points to a wider trend in all the major state-based news mastheads of significant readership from other parts of the country. According to the Roy Morgan Readership data, West Australia’s news mastheads have more readership in the east than the west, with 2.2m readers to 1.6m.

“There is a significant amount of out-of-state readership”, says Lyons. “They have the highest out of state readership over any state or territory which is pretty significant. If you’ve got a strong eastern seaboard following, it makes sense.”

The conversation also checks in on the progress of Streamer, the community sport video streaming platform launched out of The West Australian last year.

And DeCeglie pushes back on reporting in rival title The Australian Financial Review suggesting the launch of The Nightly has sparked internal tensions within Seven West Media.

Production on today’s podcast was by the ever-helpful Abe’s Audio. The ringing phone in one of the questions was entirely my fault.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back tomorrow with a focus on the retail media landscape.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: How Nine’s radio and TV operations shone in the aftermath of Saturday’s Bondi Junction attack, while the ABC failed to launch and Seven named the wrong man.

2GB steps up as other broadcasters fail

Saturday afternoon saw many broadcasters caught flatfooted as news began to break of the murderous attack at Bondi Junction. With weekend production levels and staff on holiday because of the school break, many were slow to react. The ABC’s TV news channel stuck with its rebroadcast of Planet America, while its radio arm continued to air a food documentary. ABC Sydney remained with a sports call.

By contrast, 2GB’s Continuous Call Team, led by Mark Levy, switched to rolling coverage from their commentary box in Parramatta after breakfast host Ben Fordham called in to break the news.

Meanwhile, the social platform formerly known as Twitter was an utter cesspool.

In today’s podcast:

How 2GB dominated on Sydney’s biggest news day of the year;
Why was the ABC so slow to go live on radio or TV?;
How did Seven name the wrong man?;
Countdown to 10.15am as the Bruce Lehrmann verdict arrives;
Fastfood ads the next target

Further reading:

Unmade: The last days of James Warburton

Australian Financial Review: Up in the air: Seven’s new boss braces for impact

Australian Financial Review: Seven’s cost cuts claim the US ‘job’ of former Sunrise boss

Trinity P3: State of The Pitch

New York Times: How Tech Giants Cut Corners to Harvest Data for A.I.

Campaign: Will AI power a reboot of full-service agencies?

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s conversation offers a depressing picture of how little progress the communications industry has made compared to other industries in making adland a safe environment for women.

The discussion, convened by Unmade’s Cat McGinn, features Jasmin Bedir, Darren Woolley and Liam Walsh. A key question: are the industry’s male executives putting career expediency ahead of doing the right thing when they see a problem?

Bedir is CEO of creative agency Innocean and founder of campaign group Fck the Cupcakes.

Woolley is founder of marketing consultancy Trinity P3. In 2022, he began to invite the bosses of agencies participating in marketing pitches run by his company to sign a statutory declaration on their “status and processes regarding workplace bullying, harassment and assault”. It also asks agencies to confirm they do not used non-disclosure agreements to stop women from talking about their bad experiences. While most independent agencies choose to sign, “virtually all” holding companies have found reasons to avoid doing so, Woolley says.

Walsh has worked in a number of big roles across adland including running Facebook ANZ and Amobee, and national sales director of Fairfax Digital.

According to Bedir: “I see a lot of agencies literally pretending that they are so super diverse and or they're so in favor of gender equality and then I look at the gender pay gap.

“Agencies are so good at this ornamental window dressing. They're all talking the talk.”

She adds: “I see little pockets of progress. But I think for a very long time this industry has been really good at virtue signalling and pretending that our houses are in order. Winning diversity awards and all these things that look on a surface level all good. But I think they're all artificially created and it's not really what's underneath.”

One of Woolley’s concerns is that when holding companies refuse to sign statutory declarations - instead sending through documents about their policies - he cannot be certain what he is recommending to his clients when he assists them with a pitch. “It means that every every week, every month that we're running another pitch, We're potentially recommending an agency where employees will be harassed, bullied or even assaulted. And how do I feel about that? I don't have any legal responsibility but I certainly feel a deep moral responsibility and ethical responsibility for doing that.”

On the topic of virtue signalling, Walsh warns that the private conversations of some male executives in the industry are far less progressive than what they say in public fora. He says: “I hear conversations where men still talk about women and how they look.”

Woolley warns: “I have to tell you it is fear that stops particularly men standing up even when they know something is going to be good for everyone and particularly the women they that they work with and and colleagues. But they don't want to rock the boat.”

On the topic of why the trade press does not speak out more, Walsh reveals: “I've heard too many conversations where the person who pays for the ad has said we'll stop running ads with that trade publication for what they said.”

Editing of today’s audio content was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s conversation features the boss of Paramount’s Network Ten, Beverley McGarvey, in one of the first interviews since her promotion, alongside the global head of the Paramount+ Marco Nobili.

Of all the media brands in Australia, the future of Paramount and its free to air network Ten, is the hardest to predict, with both global and local forces at play.

Globally, the ownership of Paramount is developing into a tug-of-war between private equity house Apollo and content giant Skydance. Apollo appears to be interested in just the company’s US studio assets, while Skydance is talking to controlling shareholder Shari Redstone about a deal which would likely see it take control of the whole company. A merger with Warner Bros Discovery has also been floated, although that looks a less likely option.

The ramifications of all that for Network Ten would inevitably follow later.

Key to the future of Paramount, which also owns US TV network CBS, is its loss-making but still growing streaming service Paramount+, which has now reached 67m subscribers globally. No local figures have been released for the service but according to Kantar panel research, Paramount+ had a 10% share of new subscribers locally in the last quarter.

Key to the market valuation of Paramount, which is close to a historic low, is persuading investors that the company can take Paramount+ into profitability. One of the global execs charged with that is Marco Nobili, Paramount+’s International general manager.

Nobili was in Australia this week for the announcement of an Australian advertising tier for Paramount+, priced at $6.99 and kicking off in June.

Meanwhile, Paramount’s local boss Beverley McGarvey - recently promoted to the lengthy title of President Network Ten, Head of Streaming & Regional Lead - has multiple challenges. Ten continues to struggle in the ratings without the rights to any top tier sports. It’s commercial linear audience share in the first quarter was only about 20%. But that’s only part of the picture. Alongside the subscription offering of Paramount+, McGarvey is also in charge of ad-supported streaming via 10 Play and FAST (free ad supported television) channels offering Pluto TV.

And all that while keeping staff focused as speculation only gets louder about the global future of Paramount.

In today’s conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Nobili and McGarvey discuss the challenges of leading a team during that sort of noise. According to McGarvey, a veteran of Network 10’s 2017 fall into administration which saw what is now Paramount end up as the owner, it’s business as usual: “If you work in a media company and you're not used to constant speculation, it would be unusual.

“There's a long period of consolidation, of change, of addition and things happening, and most people now are really good at understanding that creating a great service, a great product and being a really strong business no matter what happens in the end, is the best outcome. I think people honestly are used to working in that environment these days. If you look at any trade publication on any day of the week, there's speculation about somebody.”

During the conversation, topics include the content pipeline after the Hollywood writers’ strike; Top Gear Australia, the next round of sports rights; the unusual structure which sees chief sales officer Rod Prosser reporting into the UK, and the impact on the free to air sector of feuding between networks.

Editing of today’s audio contentwas courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: New AI developments in agencies, search and film production; an odd job ad from Accenture; and we reach the pointy end of the smart TV apps debate

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn (May 28) and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event (November);
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Today: Hey agencies, AI is drinking your milkshake

Artificial intelligence may eat agencies’ lunch, Google warns them over dinner;
Generative AI targets film production;
Legislators make their minds up about smart TV navigation;
TV network tensions;
Accenture’s bizarre “feminine touch” job ad

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Google’s secret meeting warns of AI threat to ad jobs

Capital Brief: Netflix shoots its shot in smart TV clash with free-to-air networks

Unmade: TV’s former united front is, indeed, all over the shop

Unmade: Dr Spin: Accenture really, really craves the feminine touch

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features Sam Buchanan, boss of Independent Media Agencies Australia, the fastest growing of the new generation of industry associations.

Also today, Seven West Media takes a 5% hit on its already challenged share price.

‘We haven’t been allowed into the nightclub, let alone the dance floor’: How IMAA is speaking up for indie agencies

At a time when the global holding companies have been going backwards, the independent media agency sector has been growing its share of advertising spend.

One factor in the rising profile of the indie sector is new industry body Independent Media Agencies Australia, helmed by Sam Buchanan.

In today’s conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Buchanan discusses fighting to get a voice for indies in pitches and with governments, building a community, getting better deals for his members and the role of the industry in diversity and sustainability. He also talks about the lessons learned from the association’s original launch which saw it face a backlash after kicking off with an all male leadership.

Less than five years old, the IMAA is in robust health thanks to the dual revenue streams of payments by media owners keen to get closer to agencies and membership fees. The IMAA’s published accounts show income of $933,000 for the last financial year and a surplus of $152,000.

The discussion also covers where Buchanan plans to take the IMAA next, including an eye to overseas.

Seven slumps on Unmade Index

The Unmade Index rose slightly yesterday despite a dismal day for Seven West Media.

Shares in SWM lost another 5%, as the TV-led company saw its market capitalisation fall to the lowest level in three-and-a-half years.

After dropping below a market capitalisation of $300m earlier this week, SWM’s valuation sagged to $285m on Wednesday.

Having fallen behind IVE Group last month to become the ASX’s sixth largest stock, the resurgence of Southern Cross Austereo and ARN Media means Seven is teetering on becoming merely Australia’s eighth largest listed media company.

ARN and SCA both also fell slightly, by 1.81% and 0.51%, yesterday.

However, the index - which tracks Australia’s listed media and marketing stocks - was buoyed by improvements for Nine and Ooh Media. The index closed on 571.3 points, up by 0.31%

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Editing of today’s audio contentwas courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: The ACCC sets put how it plans to examine the search ecosystem; and the vote against the chair of Southern Cross Austereo approaches 40%

Today: Search in the spotlight; SCA agitators close on 40% for anti-chair vote

In today’s conversation:

The ACCC begins its inquiry into the search market;
Google starts ‘nuking’ AI-created content from search results;
When the main Meta news deals end;
The push against Southern Cross Austereo’s chair intensifies

Further reading:

ACCC: ACCC to examine internet search

Search Engine Journal: Google’s March 2024 Core Update Impact: Hundreds Of Websites Deindexed

Unmade: ARN closes in on SCA

Australian Financial Review: More Southern Cross shareholders back removing chair Rob Murray

Australian Financial Review: Media Observed - Meta maelstrom

Unmade: Tanking the ratings as Melbourne waits for K+J

LinkedIn: Byron Cooke - My Kiis 1011 era will come to a close

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features The Saturday Paper’s editor-in-chief Erik Jensen, the only person in Australia at the helm of a national newspaper they founded.

Also in today’s post, the Unmade Index rally continues for a strong second day.

Have you considered becoming a paying member of Unmade to get the full picture? Only our paying members receive our members-only Tuesday analysis; get access to our archive where all our content is paywalled after two months; get their own copy of Media Unmade; and receive discounts on all our events. Upgrade today

A newsroom unlike any other: How Erik Jensen created a unique news culture at The Saturday Paper

Back in 2014, the then communications minister Malcolm Turnbull cracked a joke at the launch of The Saturday Paper. He told proprietor Morry Schwartz: “You are not some demented plutocrat pouring more and more money into a loss making venture that is just going to peddle your opinions.”

Although Turnbull later denied it, the unnamed subject of the gag was widely assumed to be News Corp proprietor Rupert Murdoch whose newspaper The Australian was at the time loss-making.

Ten years on, The Saturday Paper has indeed run at a profit for every year of its existence, and been a rare print success story, albeit one underpinned by digital publishing.

According to founding editor Erik Jensen, now editor-in-chief across the Schwartz Media group of The Saturday Paper, The Monthly and the 7AM Podcast, Schwartz has indeed been a proprietor who has respected his editorial independence.

In a podcast conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Jensen, who worked at the Sydney Morning Herald early in his career, discusses how Schwartz backed his idea for a newspaper that rejected newsroom orthodoxies.

Jensen says he has tried to avoid being a stereotypical editor. He describes a newsroom that most journalists would not recognise. “I’ve never yelled in a newsroom. I’ve never done anything that I saw happen in other newsrooms when I was working for bigger newspapers. I’ve never done that with my own staff because I’ve tried to do the opposite.

“It’s actually a very quiet and polite staff working on the paper. They work silently and diligently. It’s so unlike other newsroom I’ve been in. Our subs bench is almost entirely staffed by women. There’s a very gentle culture about how we treat the work we’re doing.”

Not that Jensen allows himself a stress-free working life. He discusses how his perfectionism got the better of him for his first few editions. “For the first probably 20 editions I still believed there was a perfect newspaper that could be made.

“I went quite mad trying to make that newspaper. I was working on the paper obsessively. I was rewriting every story. I was convinced that if I pushed hard enough, I could make something perfect.

“There was substantial liberation in realising that actually the news is imperfect, that the idea of a perfect newspaper is illusory, and maybe that's good, maybe that keeps us making newspapers, but I actually think when you can accept that a newspaper is always going to be flawed because the news itself is flawed, then you get a lot closer to doing interesting things with it.”

During the conversation, Jensen also tackle how The 7am Podcast and The Monthly fit into the picture and how new CEO Ben Shepherd has arrived with “a transformative plan” for the business.

Unmade Index up as attempt to unseat SCA chair lands

The Unmade Index saw a second strong day in a row on Wednesday, rising by another 1.67% to 579.1 points.

At the top end of town, Nine was the best performer, rising by 3.35%. Seven West Media also came off its low point, gaining 2.5%.

Yesterday morning’s news that Spheria Asset Management has formalised its attempt to unseat Southern Cross Austereo chair Rob Murray didn’t cause a ripple to the share price, which stayed flat.

Spheria, which owns 9.9% of the company, wants the SCA board to move faster on accepting the takeover bid being led by ARN Media. Next week, it will be five months since ARN launched the bid; after waiting on information back from ARN, it took until last Thursday for SCA’s board to say that it did not believe the bid was high enough.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today: OpenAI’s Sam Altman predicts 95% reduction in agency jobs; Melbourne radio gets ready for a huge week; and Nine talks to Antony Catalano about buying back his papers.

Perthbound

Unmade publisher Tim Burrowes will be in Perth next week - from Monday March 18 to Wednesday March 20. He’d love to catch up with anyone in the industry who wants to do so. Please email tim@unmade.media

‘Images, videos, campaign ideas? No problem’

Today:

Melbourne radio’s big week;
Southern Cross Austereo rejects ARN Media’s first offer;
Antony Catalano buys into SCA… and tries to sell papers to Nine;
Open AI’s Sam Altman says AI will do 95% of marketing jobs;
Elon Musk sues openAI

Further reading:

Unmade: K&J prepare to descend upon Melbourne from the heavens
Australian Financial Review: Antony Catalano wants to sell three of his biggest newspapers
Mumbrella (from 2014): Radio’s revolution: Why today is the day that everything changes
The Marketing Institute: Sam Altman Says AI Will Handle “95%” of Marketing Work Done by Agencies and Creatives
OpenAI blog: OpenAI and Elon Musk

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features the story of how Claire Kimball and Kate Watson grew The Squiz from a daily newsletter to a multi faceted brand via podcasting, with events now on the horizon.

‘We thought there would be an acquirer by now’: How The Squiz made an early pivot towards daily podcasts

This month The Squiz reaches its seven years in the market. Starting life as a daily, agenda-free catchup of the key developments, with a female skew, The Squiz surfed what was a US-led trend.

Later The Squiz expanded to a daily podcast - they believe it was Australia’s first - and then extended to Squiz Kids. More recently they launched new podcast Squiz News Club.

In an honest conversation, founders Claire Kimball and Kate Watson share their challenges and frustrations, including the difficulties of getting in front of media agencies, how they’d expected the business to go faster, how ‘curation’ is their favourite word, and why they’re planning to soon move into live events.

They also discuss their unconventional publishing backgrounds, with neither of them having been a journalist before starting The Squiz. Kimball had been head of communications at Woolworths and was a press secretary to former PM Tony Abbott. Watson had done sales roles for Bauer Media and Sky News Australia.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Metacrisis

Today:

Facebook pulls of of the news ecosystem, setting up a confrontation for parent company Meta
Looking ahead to this week’s Future of TV Advertising conference as the industry’s measurement divisions widen

Further reading:

Unmade: The wheels fall off for news
Australian Financial Review: Onerous demands and threats: Inside Facebook’s secret media deals
Australian Financial Review: Michael Miller - The time has come for parliament to fire its cannon – at Meta
Brisbane Times: Albanese government furious over Meta’s plan to pull out of Facebook news deal
Capital Brief: Meta shuts the door on Australian news publishers, putting deals worth $70m at risk
The Australian: Meta’s dumping of content deals with publishers will cost jobs, says Country Press Australia
Future of TV Advertising Sydney: Agenda

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features an in depth interview with Patrick Delany, the mastermind of Foxtel Group’s pivot away from broadcast TV, towards streaming, and now aggregation.

‘If we started a business like Kayo inside Foxtel it would get killed’: Patrick Delany sets out Hubbl’s stall

Last week, Foxtel Group reached another inflection point.

After winning the subscription TV wars, the company had lost its way when the streamers arrived. It began to bleed subscribers, and its first, timid, entry into streaming via Presto, a joint venture with Seven, failed fast.

Patrick Delany returned to the business as CEO six years ago and led the sort of strategic shift rarely seen in incumbents, opting to disrupt the company’s own lucrative, but fading, business model by pushing hard into streaming. Sports platform Kayo and entertainment service Binge quickly followed.

Last week the company pivoted again, putting aggregation at the centre of its universe, with the launch of Hubbl. The move puzzled many commentators, trying to figure out why Foxtel Group is putting so much weight behind what appears to be a low margin hardware play. Today’s interview goes some way towards answering that.

The answer is that Foxtel sees its future at the heart of aggregation. The puck and built-in Hubbl Glass TV devices offer consumers the promise of making their multiple subscriptions easier to navigate. Consumers who led Foxtel manage their subs will make savings.

In some ways, that marks a return to Foxtel’s roots. The company began life as an aggregator of other companies’ channels, but over time came to own more and more of them itself.

During the wide ranging conversation, Delany explains the moment Foxtel recognised it had to change after buying expensive cricket rights and broadcasting in 4K format didn’t alter the company’s downwards trajectory in the face of the rise of Netflix. Instead Foxtel Group moved into a clear eyed differentiation strategy - hanging on to existing, lucrative Foxtel subscribers for as long as possible, while creating a whole new product at a cheaper price point and a differentiated brand for younger consumers.

“The first thing we did was, can we get some life back into Foxtel? Can we make it grow? Can we do that through 4K and cricket? We went and spent a lot of money on doing that. We did big campaigns and we couldn't get a pulse back.

“So we flipped into the main strategy which was maintain Foxtel as long as we can, run it for cash, stop doing above the line promotions that annoy subscribers, try and hang on to the subscribers as long as we can so be content with older richer Australian insider Foxtel.”

Alongside the strategic shift, came one of the lessons learned from the Presto debacle. Because Presto sat inside the main Foxtel business, it wasn’t allowed to compete, and was a much weaker product as a result.

“We started talking about the new world but it was pretty clear that if we started a business like Kayo inside Foxtel it would get killed and we'd done that previously - we started Presto, did it on a terrible platform but the culture would be to protect Foxtel.”

Instead came the Streamotion business, which is where Kayo, Binge and news aggregator Flash are housed in a seperate building down the road from the main Foxtel office. Subscribers to the new streaming service don’t even see the name Foxtel on their bills.

In another sign of how central Hubbl is to the new approach, the Streamotion brand is becoming Hubbl. The word Foxtel was not uttered from the stage during the glitzy launch event on Sydney Harbour last week.

The conversation with Delany also covers communications legislation, ever escalating sports right costs, Foxtel’s relationship with the free to air TV industry, the shock 2015 NRL rights blindside, the question of future plans for an IPO, and whether Delany might one day follow in the footsteps of one of his predecessors Kim Williams and lead News Corp (spoiler: he says not).

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn (May 28) and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event;
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Upgrade today

From Bard to worse during media’s cold snap

Today:

Is media’s deep freeze finally hitting bottom?
Countdown to the end of the Meta money
Digital growth plateaus
What to look out for in the Southern Cross Austereo financial update
Google’s image generator Gemini’s rogue woke embarrassment

Further reading:

Brisbane Times: Former digital darling Vice Media to slash jobs, shutter website
Unmade: ‘Very close to the bottom’: As bad as it gets (or as good as it gets?) for Nine and ARN Media
Australian Financial Review: Australian media’s $70m lifeline ends in months. Meta isn’t picking up
Brisbane Times: $1b for journalism at risk in new warning over Google, Facebook
The Australian: Online advertising market spend was $14.7bn in 2023, slowest annual growth since 2020
Sweathead: How brands are using AI
The Verge: How AI copyright lawsuits could make the whole industry go extinct
Unmade: Why Australia's marketers need to worry about the lack of local artificial intelligence laws

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features highlights from last week’s gathering of the audio industry’s commercial players for the Heard conference in Sydney.

Marketing mastery and audio nirvana

Last week saw Australia’s audio trade body, Commercial Radio & Audio invite agency executives to its Heard event.

Across the day, panels explored the emotional and rational sides of radio advertising, and put the case that radio deserves a reassessment of its place in the media mix.

Today’s podcast features two of the panels, both moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

The first featured a conversation on understanding radio’s role within the media marketing mix. Paul Sinkinson, managing director of Analytic Partners, whose speciality is the ROI of marketing, shared details of a study the industry is conducting on whether marketers can find a price edge by investing more in brand building rather than performance activity.

He was joined by marketer Nathan James, from drinks owner William Grant & Sons, who shared the results of a brand building radio experiment featuring Hendricks gin. Lauren Joyce, chief strategy & connections officer at Australian Radio Network rounded off the panel.

The second panel focused on the trading relationship between the audio companies and media agencies, and how it needs to evolve to achieve audio nirvana.

It featured Venessa Hunt, Director of Commercial Strategy & Growth, at ARN; Olly Newton, Executive Head, LiSTNR, Commercial, SCA; Nicole Bence, Chief Commercial Officer at Nova and Ash Earnshaw, Director of Sales, Total Audio at Nine.

Tim Burrowes’ travel to Sydney and accommodation was funded by CRA

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, this is the perfect time. Your membership includes:

Member-only pricing for our HumAIn (May 28) and REmade (October 1) conferences;
A complimentary invitation to Unmade’s Compass event;
Member-only content and our paywalled archives;
Your own copy of Media Unmade

Upgrade today

Countdown to Hubbl

Today:

Hubbl reveals app partners ahead of this week’s launch;
Earnings season: Looking ahead to Ooh Media, Nine and ARN Media, and back on Seven West Media’s dud numbers;
Paramount axes boss Jarrod Villani

Further reading:

Unmade: No victory lap for Warburton as Seven delivers its worst first half ever
Brisbane Times: Top local Paramount executive departs as cuts filter through media industry

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade. Today’s edition features a conversation with the key players behind the deal for Vinyl Group to acquire The Brag Media, Josh Simons and Luke Girgis.

There was some unconventional elements to the announcement that Vinyl Group was going to buy The Brag Media for a little over $8m. Not least was the fact that The Brag Media, while no colossus, is larger in both revenue and profits than its new owner.

During today’s Unmade podcast interview with the two key players in the acquisition - Vinyl Group’s Josh Simons and The Brag Media’s Luke Girgis - the rationale for the deal begins to make more sense.

Vinyl Group consists of:

Jaxta - positioned as the IMDB of the music industry, acting as a repository of official music credits ;
Vampr (which was founded by muso Simons) - positioned as the LinkedIn, or possibly Tinder, of the music industry, connecting musicians;
Vinyl, which, as the name might suggests, is an ecommerce offering selling vinyl records

It’s only a matter of weeks since the overall group rebranded from Jaxta to Vinyl, and months since Simons took charge after the ousting of former CEO Beth Appleton. He goes on the record about those circumstances for the first time, and shares what he’s already learned the hard way about ASX rules.

Simons won the confidence of his board after helping secure Richard Wise (who made his fortune through technology firm WiseTech) as a cornerstone investor.

Other major shareholders in Vinyl Group include the US based music licencing platform Songtradr run by Paul Wiltshire. In the interview, Simons points to the interest owned by Songtradr as a key reason to be confident in the prospects for the business, despite it not yet being profitable. “I don’t want to put words in Paul’s mouth, but they can’t allow us to fail. When you know that, you make decisions with a much longer term view.”

The duo also tackle the structure of the deal, which was mostly in cash rather than stock, in part because Girgis’s business partner and majority owner of The Brag Media Sam Benjamin, has left the business.

Meanwhile, Girgis argues that although the deal would allow him to exit after two years, he’s excited to stay for the long term. He says: “All I know is that I've started this business having more fun and I'm more inspired than I've ever been.

“And we have big ambitions and I I just want to build something incredible and that's what I'm really inspired to do with Vinyl Group.”

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today’s topics: Remembering Harold Mitchell; latest on how AI is changing marketing; Seven West Media prepares for digital newspaper launch

Harold Mitchell: Media’s biggest beast

Today:

Harold Mitchell, Australia’s most successful media agency founder, passes on;
SWM prepares to launch The Nightly
The week in AI, as Google’s bodged Bard branding becomes Gemini

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Ad man Harold Mitchell was living large to the end
The Australian: Media tycoon Harold Mitchell dies, aged 81
The Age: Australian advertising and media veteran Harold Mitchell dies
Brisbane Times: Stokes’ Seven takes on News Corp with nightly newspaper, supported by Gina Rinehart

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today:

What will it mean for Ten staff if Paramount changes hands?;
Commercial radio heavyweight Mike Fitzpatrick set for ABC switch;
Amazon Prime now reaches one-third of Aussie households;
Radio body’s unseemly “smear” row

Further reading:

Unmade: Paramount on the block?;
Australian Financial Review: As billionaires vie for Paramount, a Network 10 sale looks more likely;
Capital Brief: Amazon leads the race for new Australian streaming subscribers ahead of ad tier launch;
The Australian: ABC Radio shake-up

Australian Financial Review: Record labels accuse radio networks of ‘smear campaign’ in fees row

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Le Roy’s IAB agenda: Setting standards, building investment confidence, creating communities (and directing a panto)

Covering the shenanigans of the IAB’s digital metrics tender nearly 15 years ago, it was impossible to predict that the industry body would grow into the big tent it has since become.

Much of the credit for that goes to Gai Le Roy, the CEO since 2018. Le Roy rose through media research roles including as research and insights director for Nine, VP of research at Nielsen and GM of audience insights at Fairfax Media.

In today’s Unmade podcast, we explore how she has shifted the IAB to consensus building by spreading its wings across the whole digital ecosystem. That includes a series of ongoing working groups focused on specific topics such as gaming, digital out of home, sustainability, retail media, affiliate marketing, careers and search. And the IAB runs a series of member summits across Sydney and Melbourne including this month’s Audio Summit, April’s affiliate marketing and digital out of home events and September’s annual MeasureUp metrics conference.

During the conversation, Le Roy offers a little detail on the financial state of the organisation, which she describes as healthy, with a turnover of around $2m.

She also reveals why she doesn’t want to bring back the IAB Awards, how she ended up involved in the unlikely success story of last year’s UnLtd industry pantomime and she attempts to answer the question of what happens in her career after the IAB.

The conversation also covers off the key issues coming up for 2024, including the loss of signal through cookie deprecation, forthcoming privacy legislation and where video ratings go next.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Nine tries to interest private equity in Domain stake;

The TV ratings reset;

Are ABC staff ready for Kim Williams?

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Nine’s bankers asked private equity if they were interested in Domain

Unmade: Kim Williams returns to the ABC, the place he said was ‘mired in internal factions, divisions and industrial rigidities’

Unmade: Rewriting history

Australian Financial Review: TV networks are burying their least flattering figures

Australian Financial Review: Disney takes $110m more from Australia, hikes streaming price by 28pc

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features the Melbourne panel from our 2024 industry predictions event, Compass.

Further down, the Unmade Index’s gains stretch into a fourth day, but Seven West Media sees a big fall.

Compass will return later this year. Unmade’s paying members get a complimentary invitation. They also get discounts to all our events including our AI-led focus on the cutting edge of media and marketing, humAIn on May 28, and our retail media conference REmade on October 1. Upgrade today.

Where's the creativity? Why Russel Howcroft would start an old fashioned DM company: Melbourne’s media minds on what 2024 holds

Unmade’s Compass roadshow rolled into Melbourne late last year to hear thoughts and predictions of the year to come for the industry.

Today we bring you a recording of the conversation had between our panel, moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

It featured:

Adman, broadcaster and 3AW co-host, Russel Howcroft;
Ben Shepherd, chief investment officer at Dentsu; since the recording, Ben has been announced as new boss of Schwartz Media;
Melody Townsend, GM of retail marketing at Bank of Queensland Group;
Jason Tonelli, CEO of media agency Zenith;
Hannah Nickels, head thinker of creative media at Thinkerbell

The panel discussed issues with industry measurement metrics, the disappointing output from creative agencies over the year, the factors that led to the ‘no’ vote winning the Voice referendum, the failure of brands to service consumers in the face of crisis, the consequences of dominance of the two big tech platforms, how advertising influences (or doesn’t influence) culture and much more.

They also ask the question of why conversations at industry conferences have lost their edge.

The Compass series was sponsored by Circuit from Cashrewards. Those interested in supporting the 2024 cycle of Compass should email doug@wethinkmedia.com.au

Unmade Index growth tails off as Seven West Media slumps

The Unmade Index carried its growth into a fourth day, but only grew a further 0.28%, to 616.5 points.

Seven West Media saw the biggest movement of the day, losing 5.36%. Southern Cross Austereo gained 2.53%

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with Best of the Week on Saturday.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features the panel discussion at Unmade’s Sydney Compass event, featuring Simone Gupta from Supermassive; Leah Jackson from Goodman Fielder; Lauren Joyce from ARN; and Henry Innis from Mutinex.

Unmade’s first Compass event took place in Sydney back in November, with the panel reflecting on the year just gone and looking forward to the year ahead.

The conversation opened with the panel asked to nominate topics usually discussed privately but not on stage. Supermassive’s Simone Gupta raised the question of why more isn’t being done to protect staff from bullying and harassment; Mutinex’s Henry Innis countered by asking why the trade press is not being braver in publishing what they’ve heard.

ARN Media’s Lauren Joyce warned of a mood of fear for jobs across the industry.

The fast moving discussion ranged across under appreciated regional markets; what media companies need to do to bring back advertisers - Goodman Fielder’s Leah Jackson would like to see better reporting ; the challenges the panellists had to overcome in they year just gone, and the generational gap in motivations around working from home versus returning to the office.

The Compass series was sponsored by Circuit from Cashrewards. Those interested in supporting the 2024 cycle of Compass should email doug@wethinkmedia.com.au

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Next week’s podcast will feature the panel from Compass Melbourne

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an intriguing conversation with one of the most connected executives in the television industry - Fetch TV boss Scott Lorson.

Scott Lorson has outlasted the bosses of every other major media company in Australia. In an industry riven by disruption, Lorson has been a constant at the helm of Fetch TV for nearly 15 years.

The aggregation service - delivered via the company’s Mighty and Mini set top boxes has hung its hat on elegant navigation and convenient aggregation of all the major streaming services, both free and paid.

Last year, in one of the most significant moments for Fetch TV, Telstra bought a $50m, controlling stake from Astro Holdings. It will see customers of the Telstra TV service migrate to Fetch, taking the service into more than a million households.

In today’s podcast conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Lorson discusses the relevance of Fetch against the increasing smartness of smart TVs, how the next step might be to integrate the Fetch interface into televisions, the current reform of prominence legislation, and where the TV market goes next.

Uniquely, Lorson deals with all the players, not just locally but globally, and in both the free and susbscription markets. It means he arguably has a better understanding of the dynamics of the television industry than anyone else in Australia.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Ben Shepherd quits Dentsu after less than a year for Schwartz Media gig

Nine loses its publishing boss James Chessell

Government set to ventilate platform news deals

LadBible outsources sales to Val Morgan in Aussie retreat

The year of media carnage, the rise of AI and retail media

Further reading:

The Guardian: Tech giants could be forced to share secret news deals under Australia’s media bargaining code

Sydney Morning Herald: Facebook and Google to face ACCC oversight under tougher rules for using news

Brisbane Times: Morry Schwartz installs ad executive as head of Schwartz Media

The Australian Financial Review: Nine publishing boss James Chessell to depart

The Australian Financial Review: Downsize - carnage across the media

Tech Crunch: A comprehensive list of 2023 tech layoffs

Unmade: An update on Unmade's plans for 2024 and how you can be part of it (by giving us money)

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features Jeremy Somers, founder of AI creative agency Not Content.

If you’ve been thinking about upgrading to an Unmade membership, there will never be a better time. Until the end of the year, our annual membership price is reduced from $650 to just $377 - that’s a saving of 42%. That discount will be locked in for as long as you stay a member.

Jeremy Somers, the man behind ‘world’s first AI-led creative content agency’

In 2022, Jeremy Somers, founder of fashion label We Are Handsome, ventured into uncharted territory, founding NotContent, which he says is the world's first AI-driven creative agency. Somers previously worked in Sydney at digital agencies including Razorfish and the White Agency.

Not Content advertises itself to agencies as a ”white-label service for your clients” promising it will allow them to “do little work” and “take their money”.

For brands, the agency promises it can “double your content each month keeping your costs steady”.

“This is where everything will go, whether it's this year, whether it's in five years or in 10 years. This is massive for everything that I've ever known, and everything that I’ve done, no matter what part of the creative industry,” Somers says of the transformative properties of generative AI.

“It's a bit of a scary thing I think for everyone in the creative industries, because it changes everything. All the skills that we've spent so many years or decades learning, a lot of those skills get thrown out the window, but the most important ones do not, and I don't think that a lot of people see that yet.”

Somers does, however, believe that the industry and wider society at large is lagging behind on realising and capitalising on the utility of generative AI as a tool, saying: “I don't believe that we have even started moving upwards on this early adopter curve yet. I don't even think we're at the early adopter stage. We're very much before that.”

“The amount of creative jobs that are going to change, not necessarily get lost, but change and only change if the skilled people are upskilling themselves into this new world. Just like we went from analogue everything to digital everything, whether you were using a graphite pencil or a film camera, you had to upskill yourself in the digital revolution. This is the same,” Somers says of the adaptability and agility creatives will need to adopt in the wake of the AI revolution.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Retailers to snatch $1bn+ away from media
The streaming ad tiers are coming
Will this be the week we finally get ABC podcast data?
How will Seven look after James Warburton?

Further reading:

The Australian Financial Review: Major retailers threaten to siphon away $1.1b in advertising spend
Capital Brief: Dentsu tips streaming giants to make 'profound' ad market inroads in 2024
Unmade: A lucky general: How Warburton cleaned the slate at Seven

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features a conversation with Matt Cooper, founder and CEO of global advertising archiving website and community, Little Black Book. He admits to be perplexed by the negativity of some of adland’s old guard.

Cooper, UK-based founder of Little Black Book, has been in Australia to talk about the advertising archive’s push into APAC.

Cooper, who began his advertising career in 1988 in the mailroom of Saatchi & Saatchi before joining legendary post production house The Mill, has been involved in chronicling adland’s output for decades.

He was behind the archiving and asset management tool Beam TV before founding Little Black Book in 2010. LBB has grown from a simple source of advertising output, to an editorially-led global news platform and creative industry fame factory.

In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Cooper discusses the revamped version of the LBB site, the story of how his site briefly came under the Australian ownership of AdStream, and its Immortal Awards, which are currently under way.

With a membership model, Cooper aims to create a single source of advertising archive that the industry can refer to to understand what was going on globally and locally.

LBB members include agencies and networks DDB, McCann, FCB, Leo Burnett, Grey, TBWA, BBDO and Droga5, as well as some of the world’s top production and post production companies. Members join LBB so that they can grow profiles of key staff, maintain a portfolio of their work, and keep up to date with creative suppliers to work with.

“What fascinates me is talking about the archive”, says Cooper. “I love to talk about this stuff. You know, most agencies are really bad at this stuff. Most production companies are really bad at this stuff. They don't understand the value of an archive and they lock it away. Our idea is to give it to the world."

“Our archive is not just about a place to store, but it's a place to educate. What we want to make sure is that people see all this great work, young people coming into the business, because it's all free to view. So there's no limit to what you can do there.”

After a period where it was repped locally by Campaign Brief, LBB expanded into the APAC region in 2022, where it is led by former PR operative Toby Hemming.

“I can almost guarantee you that we give more global views to this market than any other publication,” claims Cooper. “And the really interesting thing for us to get across to people is that we're not an echo chamber. What we've done is we've carefully constructed a business starting from the bottom up. So we went from post production to agency to brand. Our biggest reader is clients, by a country mile.”

The conversation also turned to the topic of the often toxic comments on sites including Campaign Brief. Cooper says that there is more snark in the local industry “by a mile”. He adds: “It’s so peculiar. It’s almost like people have thrived on it here.

“I believe that many of the people who make those comments aren’t even in the industry any more. It’s a bunch of older creative folk. It’s wild.

“It’s wrong. If you think about what we're doing now in our business, we're talking about mental health and saving the world. And you're all battering each other. I don't understand it.

“No one wakes up in the morning and thinks ‘I'm going to make a crap ad’. You put your heart and soul into it.

“So you see all this stuff and this negativity around… who's that helping?”

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Mattress brands go to war over dodgy review sites, but why isn’t the ACCC being tougher?
Sky News in new streaming push
As the official ratings year ends, Ten looks for clear air for The Bachelors

Further reading:

The Australian Financial Review: Mattress maker accuses rivals of dodgy marketing with fake reviews
TV Blackbox: SKy News Australia unveils new streaming service for 2024
The Australian Financial Review: Foxtel boss braces for ‘bumpy summer’ of sport without India, Poms
Sleeping Duck: Lawrence Mattress Testing

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features a conversation with Nick Smith, managing director of arguably Australia’s most successful content marketing agency Medium Rare.

News Corp has been quietly building out its content agency offerings. It owns three of them in Medium Rare, Storyation and Suddenly.

The biggest of the three, Medium Rare, had its roots in the traditions of contract publishing. Founders Gerry Reynolds and Sally Wright, both Bauer Media refugees, launched the company in 2014 with the backing of News Corp. It became a publishing powerhouse, producing customer magazines and digital content for the likes of Qantas, David Jones, Officeworks and Bunnings, with teams dedicated to each individual brand.

News Corp fully bought out Reynolds and Wright last year and they have since left the business.

Meanwhile, News Corp also owns content agency Storyation, founded by Lauren Quaintance and Mimi Cullen. Three years on from the 2019 purchase, Quaintance and Cullen left Storyation last year.

The four founder departures saw Smith who joined Medium Rare as group content director in early 2021, quickly move up the ranks to become managing director where he works alongside chief commercial officer Fiorella Di Santo.

Although Medium Rare and Storyation have seperate teams and cultures, they work out of the same offices in Sydney’s Pyrmont, with Smith and Di Santo across both of them. The duo have faced the challenge of taking forward the two businesses as the four founders exited almost at the same time.

News Corp’s third content agency Suddenly which was launched from within the business, operates from the company’s Surry Hills HQ.

And in 2021, News Corp took majority ownership of Chippendale-based video production house Visual Domain to round out its commercial content offering. The division is led by Mike Connaghan, previously the long time boss of the WPP-aligned STW Group.

In Smith’s interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, loosely timed for the tenth birthdays of both Storyation and Medium Rare, he talks about his journey away from the traditional world of magazines.

The Medium Rare role marked a return to Australia for Smith who was previously London-based CEO of digital publishing startup BURO.Global, which didn’t survive the pandemic.

Before the overseas stint, Smith worked at News Corp as prestige and lifestyle director, where he was responsible for brands including Vogue Australia and GQ Australia. He was also a board member of Medium Rare for three years.

Smith, originally a marketer before crossing into editorial, describes his mission at GQ as catering to ‘men who aspired to be men’. He says: “There was a deep kind of mission to help young, ambitious Australians become successful gentlemen. It was taking that marketing or brand point of view, particularly here in Australia to what GQ meant.”

Smith reflects on the establishment of News Corp’s commercial content arm by senior management. “Three years ago, they realised that there were so many employees at News doing commercial content, either it was advertorials or native content, or what we were doing over here. Smartly, News Corp saw the growth of content marketing as an industry, not just overseas, but in Australia. So they really formalised the structure within News for us to really start to grow.”

Smith sees content marketing goign through a further evolution. “We've almost come full circle to say, ‘well actually, if a brand does become a publisher they are really about engaging their audience on their own channels through their own content and growing that audience’.

“There's the advent of retail media - so that content ecosystem has become even more powerful. Every second media story that I see out there is about retail media. So it's actually been fantastic, a perfect storm for us.”

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Crikey publisher Private Media makes eight roles redundant;
Media stocks feel the chill;
End of an era for Eddie McGuire’s Millionaire Hotseat;
Nine closes in on Melbourne Cup broadcasting rights

Further reading:

The Australian: Crikey publisher Private Media has given staff until Monday to decide if they want a redundancy
The Australian: Media companies batten down hatches as ad spending tightens
Unmade: We need to talk about Seven
TV Blackbox: Millionaire Hot Seat’s final episode: The end of an era
The Australian: VRC, Tabcorp inch closer to Melbourne Cup broadcast deal with Nine

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features a conversation with Nick Rynne, one of the architects of Seven West Media’s new streaming venture, Streamer.

Further down, a poor day on the Unmade Index.

‘The genuine home of community sport in Australia’: How Seven aims to grow Streamer into a national player

Seven West Media put its fledgling new community sports streaming service Streamer on the radar last month when its used its annual Upfronts event to announce a national rollout, led by operations manager Nick Rynne.

Gestated in WA out of SWM’s The West Australian news masthead, Streamer was initially conceived as a subscriber benefit, before management saw greater potential.

Streamer, allows viewers to watch local club-level sports games live and on demand. It provides a platform for anyone involved in sport to stream their game, with nothing more complicated then a phone on a tripod, although it will also support more sophisticated equipment too.

Rynne started out at Seven as WA’s digital sports editor, before editing news service PerthNow. He then took on the opportunity to guide the operational and commercial direction of Streamer which came via the patronage of SWM’s WA CEO Maryna Fewster and editor-in-chief Anthony De Ceglie.

Says Rynne during the conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes: “They realised that there was something more to the program. So they had the idea to take it away and come up with our own platform sitting outside the confines of the West Australian, where we could put the power back into the hands of the sports.”

Clubs and teams - who retain ownership of their content - have supported the project “We saw that there was more value to be gained for them and for us by allowing the sports to run their own programs and get back what they put in,” says Rynne. “So sports leagues, clubs, schools can approach us to get set up on the platform, schedule their own games, organise their own production and start to find value in their audience.”

The initial aim was to give ‘mums and dads’ at local games the opportunity to set up a production very easily

“The club secretary or a mum or a dad has a phone and a tripod on the sidelines. We wanted to have an option for them to be able to stream too, which we've seen a lot of over the 18 months.”

The platform also allows leagues, clubs and players to create profiles upload games and cut and share highlights. Although the business model for SWM is sponsorship and advertising, there are also built in features that allow clubs to make money from the platform from their supporters.

“In the last year, we've grown from 76 clubs on the platform to about 265 now. And then beyond that, we're probably averaging about 50,000 unique users per month. That's primarily in Western Australia now. So we've seen the growth here and we can project forward to once we really get up and running on the Eastern Seaboard as well.

“One of the other validating factors for us has been the number of leagues along the journey who started coming to us, so obviously our early work with the wider community sports tier two leagues in Western Australia has started to get noticed over east as well.”

Rynne explains that the purpose of Streamer’s entry in the east coast market is to differentiate itself from adjacent players and focus more on user generated content.

“The next phase in our evolution and our goals is to be the genuine home of community sport in Australia. It’s our aspiration. Extending beyond just the streams to have user generated written content, podcasts, audio, as well as a social aspect where users are able to really interact and engage with the vision.

“We want to be the home of lean in content, and we want to really start to be a leader in that space.”

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Free to air TV lobby goes to war with the pay TV lobby;
How the News Media Bargaining Code negotiations could go down next year;
OpenAI boardroom dramas and McLennan’s Rugby Australia ousting;
Michael Miller rejects rumours he’s leaving News Corp;
Mystery buyer snaps up a chunk of Southern Cross Austereo

Further reading:

The Guardian: Battle for the home screen: does the government really want to control Australian TVs?
Free TV Australia: Free For Everyone
ASTRA: Don’t let the government control your TV
Unmade: How the ACCC is gearing up for AI and Meta battles
Unmade: 'A weaker media ecosystem': Why publishers are pessimistic about the next round of News Media Bargaining Code talks
Unmade: Sam out, man
Unmade: Catalano misses out
Sydney Morning Herald: Hamish McLennan ousted as Rugby Australia chairman after board vote
Australian Financial Review: News Corp Australia boss Michael Miller quashes rumours his time is up

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features a conversation with Jonathan Pearse, author of book Winning the Room, designed to help agency executives pitch better.

‘I became obsessed with what makes an agency win and lose’: Jonathan Pease on how adland can pitch better

Communications agencies still win (or lose) much of their new business via competitive pitches.

Often, the process culminates in a single timeslot of an hour or less, in which the agency needs to persuade its prospective client of the merits of its thinking and work.

Jonathan Pease - or JP as he’s commonly known within the industry - has been contemplating those key moments for much of his recent career, including his coaching business Winning The Room.

He’s now published a book by the same title.

JP spent much of his career within the agency world including a a suit at BBDO in New York and later BMF in Sydney.

He went on to become executive ideas director at Naked Communications before becoming a co-founder of strategy agency Tongue, which was eventually folded into WPP’s AKQA.

In today’s edition, Pease speaks to Unmade’s Cat McGinn about the book, which covers techniques and methods to help give more effective presentations. In its chapters, Pease digs into the difference that setting a mood and envrionment for the presentation can make.

Pease, who saw his public profile raised thanks to his onscreen role in Australia’s Next Top Model, says: “Most people would assume that I would write a book about creativity, or maybe even running an agency. But I've been sitting in pitches now for the last 29 years, and I've been watching and learning and gathering. During that process, I've just grabbed together the most actionable, most road tested skills, and I've thought, hey, you know what? It works in a workshop, which I do a lot of, but it felt like a book was probably required.”

Pease mentioned that most people in the industry neglect the importance of being good storytellers do not put enough effort into their presentations and pitches.

“I think most people in business rely on being excellent at their job, being a thought leader. And then they leave the presentation or pitch moment up to mainly luck, right They just roll into these very important one hour slots that can really play out the trajectory of a person's career in that one hour.”

“I think a lot of people in business, and probably in life, rely on luck and their own personality when it comes to public speaking or pitching, and I just think that's a real miss because these are those one hour slots that end up paving the way for a year, two years, sometimes longer of a piece of business or an opportunity or funding of an idea.

“So I have become obsessed with those one hour blocks, that pitch moment. I really want to design them, design every single inch of that moment and give ideas the best chance of happening.”

He also shared his perspective on why pitches often die in the meeting room - typically because if they possess a unique, provocative nature, they typically inspire inertia rather than acceptance. “If they're any good, they're different and maybe slightly provocative and potentially not easy to get your head around.

“It's those ideas that provoke and create real change. They're the ones that have to get up, but by their very nature, they're a little harder to buy. So the way you present it and the way you pitch it often is the difference between success and failure, which is concerning because it's actually not about the quality of the idea.

“I've seen pretty ho-hum ideas get up and I've seen brilliant ideas die based on the way they were pitched.”

*As is discussed during the interview, Cat McGinn assisted with research during the writing and editing process of publishing Winning the Room.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Seven grabs ARN stake

Today:

Seven takes a 20% chunk of ARN in weekend raid;
Google’s big plot to block search in Australia;
The week ahead in radio ratings, Filmfronts and the Australian Podcast Ranker;
Communications minister Michelle Rowland’s lavish gambling lunch

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Kerry Stokes’ Seven swoops on ARN Media, takes near 20pc stake
Unmade: What will Seven do with its war chest?
Australian Financial Review: Inside Google’s mothballed plans to quit search in Australia
Australian Financial Review: Michelle Rowland’s lavish Society lunch paid for by gambling lobby

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

After the most gruelling Upfronts season yet, we wrap things up with the people whose verdicts matter - the media agency chief investment officers. Plus, we speak to SBS managing director James Taylor about the series of agenda-setting announcements made by the public broadcaster.

The most interesting, most unexpected and most meaningful upfronts - plus, who put on the best show?

Upfronts Season finally ends this afternoon, with the ABC announcing its content plans for 2024.

It’s been the longest one ever, kicking off during the first week of September with Nine’s Olympics-focused Upfronts taking over both the Hordern Pavilion and Hall of Industries in Sydney’s Moore Park, while Mamamia staked its claim as the primary conduit to reach women at an event at Doltone House in Pyrmont.

The next week came Independents Day, organised by the Digital Publishers Alliancewith more than 20 members offering rapidfire presentations at The Grounds in Alexandria.

The same night it was back to Hordern Pavilion, where Google’s YouTube made the case for switching advertising dollars out of television during Brandcast.

The following day, magazine house Are Media hosted buyers for a more modest lunchtime event at the new wing of the Art Gallery of NSW, turning on the star power with an appearance from Matilda’s penalty scorer Cortnee Vine.

Then in October it was on to the Beta events space in Castlereagh Street, as Carsales extended its Open House event from their Melbourne base into Sydney.

A few days later, Seven puts its weight behind SXSW Sydney, returning to the ICC for its Upfronts, executive produced by chief marketing and audience officer Melissa Hopkins.

The next week saw Ooh Media and Foxtel Media both put their events in the hands of the weather gods.

Ooh’s Outfronts trip to Sydney’s Royal Botanical Gardens was rewarded with a scorching summer’s morning. Foxtel’s boat ride to Cockatoo Island on Sydney Harbour was a damper affair, although its blockbuster announcement of a breakaway audience measurement project wiped that from the memory.

Meanwhile, Paramount took a different approach to its Upfronts this year, taking the lead from its sister network in the United States, CBS, hosting smaller groups to talk about plans for Ten, Paramount+ and Tenplay, followed by Q&A sessions.

Between them, the media companies would have spent well in excess of $10m on letting the industry know their plans. So who told their stories best? We asked the media agencies’ chief investment officers.

GroupM CIO Melissa Hey, Spark Foundry CIO Lucie Jansen and Essencemediacom CIO Nick Thomas offered their takeaways in a special edition of the Unmade podcast hosted by Tim Burrowes.

Who exceeded expectations?

Foxtel’s challenger measurement system for OzTAM drew praise.

“I'm pretty excited about what Foxtel’s doing, just disrupting the industry and leading from the front, giving our clients and us as an agency so many opportunities to change the way that we've been approaching video,” Thomas shared.

“Paramount surprised me the most because I thought that you actually did get a lot more out of it. You go into it wondering how they're going to wow you in this small setting and I walked away very impressed and engaged with what they had to offer and what they're putting on the table because of that intimate setting, and because we were able to ask questions and interact. They were answering questions that were being asked versus just going up on stage,” Hey says.

Thomas agrees: “At the big parties, you're never going to get that honest, direct conversation and feedback loop that you're going to have in the smaller groups.”

Sport was pegged as one sector of the market that the CIO’s were particularly excited about after seeing all the upfronts.

“I think next year is going to be a really good, good year for sport. 2023, particularly with the Matildas, will only serve to help audiences in that space as well. Obviously, that probably plays more to the strength of Seven and Nine,” Jansen concludes.

Most meaningful technology announcement

A selection of new adtech products were rolled out at each network’s upfront - Seven’s Phoenix, Nine’s SME-focused Ad Manager, Paramount’s Shoppable TV and SBS Measure.

Hey argues that Phoenix “will be really important and a game changer on how we operate with Seven.” She adds: “What is actually interesting and how it's going to roll out and impact for the future is Nine's Ad Manager. Whilst they're saying it's for SMEs, how they're setting that up and using AI feels just the start of the journey.“

Thomas was excited about Ooh Media’s 2024 prospects and its new retail media screen network solution, Reooh.

“I think the premium Sydney product was a good strategic play to compete with the JCDecaux's and QMS's that are playing in the premium Sydney audience already. Everyone's talking retail. I think next year will probably be the year of retail. If you were a business and you wanted to set up a retail network, it's a plug and play product that you can use, which is great.”

‘We might be the first moving in this direction. We don't believe we'll be the last’

SBS’ upfronts came just after the podcast with the CIOs was recorded, so Unmade sat down with managing director James Taylor to get a better understanding of the broadcaster’s strategies and content slate for 2024.

Key announcements from the SBS Upfront included limitations on betting, booze and fast food ads, progress on sustainability promises, another season of Alone Australia (this time shot in New Zealand) and retaining the men's FIFA World Cup.

“We believe the purveyors of all products have a right to access audiences, particularly via a public broadcaster,” says Taylor. “This is, though, about providing value to both audiences and advertisers. If you think about on-demand environments generally, and SBS on-demand specifically, users are able to exhibit complete control over what they watch.

“Therefore, we want to extend that capacity to allow audiences to express a view about the advertising component as well. We might be the first moving in this direction. We don't believe we'll be the last.

“We think these three categories are a logical place to start. It's great for the audience because they get to provide us with information about their choices as opposed to us determining what we think they want.”

Taylor also expanded on long term plans to help bring the entirety of the SBS supply chain to net zero over the next 20 years.

“We rely on third parties and their carbon footprint to reach an audience member. So the timeline we've laid out, which is an aggressive timeline actually, and the most ambitious of any media player in the country, is really about us working with our supply chain to assist them in decarbonising their footprint.”

SBS Measure, which uses Experian data, was the new adtech product rolled out at the upfront. Taylor explained the product was a way to “reinforce our credentials as a place that is worthy of our customers' investment.”

And Taylor also explained why SBS is backing Foxtel’s breakaway TV audience measurement project.

“There’s nothing lacking with Oztam from my perspective, we remain committed and enthusiastic participants in Oztam. We back the currency. We think it's a well-needed and welcome development in free-to-air's capacity to create a compelling offer to advertisers. That said, SBS is not a market maker. It's a market taker. We participated in a market. You should expect us to be inquisitive about other marketplaces that other providers are seeking to establish, so that we can form a view about whether or not SBS has a place in their marketplace.”

The entire podcast can be heard via the player at the top of this page or on the podcatcher of your choice. Special thanks to Abe’s Audio for a great job on a complex edit.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Have a great day.

Toodlepip

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

The big media beasts kick anti-platform lobbying into gear;
Nine retains overseas Ashes rights;
New Foxtel costs revealed;
How the public is cutting their streaming spend

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Media chiefs demand ‘urgent’ curb of big tech
Australian Financial Review: Rod Sims - Take action to stop AI entrenching big tech’s market power
Australian Financial Review: Nine retains English Ashes contests until 2031 in new deal
The Australian: Horse racing fans left furious after TV coverage missed photo finish of main Derby Day race
Australian Financial Review: Fox Tells
The Australian: Majority of Australians carefully managing subscription streaming services: Deloitte

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features a conversation with Paramount bosses Beverley McGarvey, and Jarrod Villani.

Australia’s most misunderstood TV company?

At this year’s Upfronts season, Paramount took a different path to its rivals. The owner of Network 10, along with streaming services, Tenplay, Paramount+ and Pluto TV, Paramount dispensed with the usual 1000-guests in a giant hall approach, for more select briefings. It had a different story to tell.

By some distance the third placed commercial TV network with Ten, the focus of the company increasingly follows the priorities of its US-based owner Paramount.

Most obviously, that will mean the launch of a local advertising tier for the fast growing Paramount+.

In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, chief operating officer Jarrod Villani and chief content officer Beverley McGarvey, discussed Paramount’s programming strategy for the year ahead, beginning with the question of whether they have made the philosophical leap that linear television is no longer their first priority.

McGarvey argues that has not happened yet. “I wouldn't say that linear is not a priority. It is a priority. It's incredibly important. There's still massive reach on linear. And there's still massive advertising dollars on linear. However, what I would say is that philosophically we are in a place that we consider - what is the right scheduling for this? Where should it play? Where can we get the best value from it? Where do audiences want to consume it? So I think we are philosophically in a multi platform place, but 10 remains critical in that,” McGarvey says.

“When you look at any of our businesses, you see that the vast majority of content that is consumed on free streaming platforms like Tenplay comes from linear. So it is first shown on linear currently. To divorce linear from free IP based viewing on Tenplay is not the way in which we visualise our business,” Villani adds.

When asked the hard question of whetehr they are willing to go on tolerating the third place share Paramount is getting amongst the networks in the longterm, Villani argues the role of Ten in the landscape is ‘not fully understood yet’.

“We understand what makes up our share. We make tweaks to that every year to improve that. It really does come down to, what is the purpose of our free-to-view offering? How is it contributing to the business? When I say that, I mean contributing to all of the business. It's both an economic discussion and it's a promotional discussion. We've spoken a lot… about the evolving ecosystem of Paramount in Australia. That is not something that I think is fully understood yet and we'll continue to work away at that,” Villani says.

Survivor and I’m A Celebrity are set to appear early in the 2024 schedule, as well as the return of Gladiators to Australian television. A number of the Paramount+ commissions like NCIS Sydney and Top Gear Australia are also expected to eventually end up on Ten.

“The reason we commissioned Gladiators is we were looking for a big event series for January that felt like something the whole family could watch. And if you think about what we've had success in January with over the last number of years, it has been I'm a Celebrity and the Big Bash. Big family entertainment with sort of an adventurous feel. Gladiators is fantastic. You can get behind your favorite one. It appeals to kids, they're great athletes and the contenders are incredible,” McGarvey says.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

The curtain closes on Upfronts season;
What we learned at Foxtel and Ooh Media’s Upfronts, and what’s to come at SBS;
The battle to acquire SCA heats up as Antony Catalano enters the arena;
Seven plots a new east coast-based masthead;

Further reading:

Unmade: Media, Unmade
Unmade: Whale tales and couch comfort as Ooh Media and Paramount share their 2024 plans
Capital Brief: SCA takes its time on ARN as Catalano waits in the wings
The Australian Financial Review: Southern Cross trades Grant Samuel for UBS amid takeover
The Australian: Kerry Stokes’ Seven West Media set to launch news website with east coast focus

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition of The Unmakers features Abe Udy, the founder and owner of one of Australia’s longest established audio production houses Abe’s Audio, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this weekend.

‘I don't think you can beat real humanness’: audio guru Abe Udy on harnessing AI

Abe Udy will already be a familiar voice to listeners of the Unmade podcast - he’s been editing our Monday Start the Week podcast since its inception and has been hosting it for more than a year.

Using early MP3 technology and dial-up internet, Udy started Abe’s Audio at the age of 18 from his bedroom. Abe's Audio has since grown to over 20 staff and produces audio content for hundreds of creative agencies, media companies, eLearning providers, video producers, animators and podcasters.

Tomorrow Abe’s Audio celebrates its silver anniversary.

One familiar Abe’s Audio creation is the ‘koala masala’ jingle for The Pitch on ABC’s Gruen.

By the end of last year, Abe’s Audio had produced over 500,000 jobs (and 1.2 million scripts). In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Udy discusses how he cut his teeth in audio, his beginnings in radio, building and scaling the business, disruption in the audio space, and Dashi, the AI platform he co-founded earlier this year, which functions as a project management platform that enables media companies to produce commercial audio content efficiently at scale.

“Twenty five years ago, the world looked very different in terms of audio,” Udy explains. “To make the commercials, you would use only local announcers, so three or four voices, and that was it. So all the ads sounded essentially sounded very similar, sounded the same, and stations really didn't have an option to be able to get other voiceover talent.”

“The space that I found myself in 25 years ago, I thought, hang on, wouldn't it be great if we could use voiceover talent from one radio station, for example, and make it available to another station.”

While creative agencies still comprise a large chunk of Udy’s client base, he’s seen a rise in requests for internal and external digital content for businesses.

“Our main clients are really advertising and creative agencies that need audio for radio commercials, TVCs, but then increasingly over the last few years, digital content's really grown. So explainer videos, audio for digital content, whether it be internal training or comms or external.”

Udy demonstrated AI-powered Dashi at Unmade’s HumAIn conference in July - which, “within nine minutes, had a script created, sent to head office in Launceston, back to a real human voice in Redfern in Sydney in a studio, recorded it, was back in Launceston, and produced by a person”.

He argues that the human touch in audio still has a significant purpose even as AI sweeps in.

“I don't think you can beat real humanness. For me, I've landed when tech and humans kind of work together, combined, that's when we get magic. So I'm not shying away from using AI tools and different technologies. But I think there's something really important about people.”

During the conversation, he also offers his thoughts on what people aspiring to be voiceover artists should focus on.“ Often I'll say to up and coming voices, it's that last 5% that's the hardest to get right and separates the good voices from the great voices. It's thinking about the brief and how a script, a voiceover can bring that script to life based on the deadline of the job and other kind of creative requirements in the brief.”

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with an end of week update tomorrow, focusing on tonight’s Foxtel Upfronts.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

We discuss the first outing of SXSW Sydney;
What we learned at the Seven Upfronts;
Radio wars as Southern Cross Austereo courts investors;

Further reading:

The Australian Financial Review: Southern Cross courts wider interest as board reviews ARN deal
Unmade: Value adds and valuing ads
Unmade: Seven’s spotlight
Unmade: What good is doing good? Leo Burnett's Catherine King on what the public expects from brands

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to a bonus audio-led edition of Unmade. Below, we discuss Seven West Media’s plans for 2024 with the team from TV Blackbox.

'We weren't expecting any surprises and Seven delivered'

In a bonus audio-led edition, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Seja Al Zaidi joined TV Blackbox’s Rob McKnight and Steve Molk at the noisy afterparty of the Seven Upfronts, held in Sydney.

The quad squad discussed:

The lack of surprises in Seven’s annual showcase
The importance of Seven’s digital AFL and cricket rights
The return of Big Brother
The new format Made in Bondi
The arrival of Chris Brown
Stranded on Honeymoon Island - the latest attempt to challenge Nine’s Married at First Sight
Marketer Mel Hopkins’ change of heart on the impact of TV
Upgrades to 7plus
Seven’s new TV trading system Phoenix
Seven West Media’s community sport offering Streamer

Email us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features a particularly impactful panel from last week’s retail media conference, REmade.

‘The path to purchase is not linear’ How the retail media landscape has changed again

The leaders of Australia’s emerging retail media sector returned to the stage last week for Unmade’s second REmade conference.

Today we bring you the final session from the conference, the leadership panel, moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

It featured:

Mike Tyquin, MD of Woolworths’ Casrtology
Teresa Aprile, co-founder of Brandcrush
Paul Brooks, GM of Coles360
Kate Yates, head of consumer marketing at Pernod Ricard

The central theme of the discussion was the rapid speed with which the sector is maturing.

Along the way, the panel debated the as-yet-unsettled question of the best definition for retail media, and how far it should extend into ecommerce; their expectations for where the sector goes next sector expectations, and the challenges anticipated during the economic downturn.

The wide ranging conversation also tackled how standards can be set and outcomes measured as new players arrive on an almost-weekly basis. IAB CEO Gai Le Roy dropped into the conversation from the audience to explain the contribution her organisation hopes to add to the measurement process.

They also discussed what is needed to break out from the test-and-learn stage of marekting plans. Yates warned: “We'll never move past test-and-learn if we don't speak a language that is universal among partners—retailers, media agencies, and businesses."

Also on the agenda was the arrival of agencies into the sector, and how they can find a place within the ecosystem.

REmade will return in the final quarter of 2024.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Getting set for South by Southwest

Today:

South by Southwest hits Sydney;
Kyle & Jackie O’s $200m deal comes closer;
ACRA awards winners announced;
Upfronts season reaches final weeks

Further reading:

The Australian Financial Review: Kyle and Jackie O to take on Melbourne in new $200m KIIS FM contract
Radioinfo: ACRAs 2023: Full Winners List
Unmade: Telling brand stories to an agreeable audience
Unmade: 'It's like addressing the United Nations of the creative industries': Colin Daniels, the man bringing SXSW to Sydney

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features adman and radio host, Russel Howcroft, riding high after another 3AW ratings win.

If there was anyone in the Australian marketing world who could be called a household name, it’s Russel Howcroft.

Howcroft is the former CEO of what was once the iconic ad agency George Patterson Y&R and is now part of VMLY&R. He became recognisable to the Australian public after his 15 years as a panelist on the ABC’s Gruen, which is still the broadcaster’s top rating show.

Along the way, Howcroft went further into broadcasting where he eventually ended up as caretaker CEO of Network Ten after the sudden departure of James Warburton. Perhaps surprisingly given the trouble the network was in at the time, Howcroft says: “I genuinely have to say it was maybe the most enjoyable business time of my life. I really did enjoy sitting in that seat. And I actually feel like we got quite a lot done.”

He was behind the creation of enduring brand lines for Ten including “Turn on Ten” and The Project’s “News delivered differently”.

Howcroft then became PwC’s first chief creative officer where he led the creation of its CMO Advisory practice. He now has a part time role as a partner and brand design advisor at Sayers Group.

PWC’s brand has since been shattered by the tax advice scandal. Asked about how PWC will rebuilt its reputation, Howcroft says the process will be arduous - one teaspoon at a time. “Organisations will be very shy. They’ll do it teaspoon by teaspoon.”

Already a Melbourne business identity, three years ago Howcroft joined Ross Stevenson on 3AW’s breakfast show, which has retained its place as the city’s top rating show.

Howcroft is clear about his role learning his new job alongside the more experienced Stevenson. “Know my role, play my role” is how he describes it.

That includes, unlike much of Nine Radio’s output, not taking political sides. Says Howcroft, who has not disclosed to listeners how he will be voting in the Voice referendum: “The key to our show is it isn’t a political show.”

The discussion also included a fascinating explanation from Howcroft on how politics, business and geography interconnects in Melbourne.

The conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes kicks off by discussing the results of the sixth radio ratings survey of the year which arrived just as the conversation was getting underway.

With thanks for recording assistance to 3AW’s Damian Tardio. Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Seven lays claim to the ratings crown;
News publishers ask for a bigger slice of the advertising pie;
The Market Herald pivots to ‘The Market’;
Joe Aston to leave the Australian Financial Review;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Seja Al Zaidi.

Further reading:

The Australian: Seven Network claims the rating crown in 2023 despite eight weeks remaining in the ratings year
Australian Financial Review: On the market
Australian Financial Review: Joe Aston leaves the Financial Review
Unmade: Farewell to the risk-taking, trouble-making, defamation-baiting Joe Aston

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features journalist and press freedom advocate Peter Greste, who became a global figure of attention in 2014 when he was held captive by Egyptian authorities for more than a year on baseless terrorism accusations.

Why Peter Greste is chasing a media freedom law

Peter Greste wears many hats - former foreign correspondent, journalist, academic, activist, press freedom advocate and author. He was hailed as an icon for press freedom around the world when he and two Al Jazeera colleagues were imprisoned in Egypt on bogus charges.

Along with a journalism teaching role at Sydney’s Macquarie University, his mission now is to bolster journalism in Australia through his role as executive director of the Alliance for Journalists’ Freedom.

In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Seja Al Zaidi, Greste discusses Australia’s lack of a fully democratic press, how he coped with being locked in a claustrophobic Cairo prison cell, the foibles of the Australian Press Council, AI’s impact on journalism and why he believes would-be journalists should not focus on the craft at university.

“Superficially, I think that our press is reasonably free. If you scratch beneath the surface, what you realise is that Australia has some of the most restrictive legislation on earth when it comes to media freedom,” Greste says.

“We are the only country in the democratic world that doesn't have press freedom or freedom of speech written into its constitution in any meaningful sense. It's implied in our constitution through what's called the implied right of political communication, but even that is contested. So without any local, domestic equivalent of the American First Amendment, which guarantees press freedom and freedom of speech, what we've seen is all sorts of national security legislation that both directly and indirectly intrudes on the ability of journalists to do their jobs. It criminalises a lot of otherwise perfectly legitimate journalistic investigation.”

The Alliance for Journalists Freedom was founded by Greste, communications consultant and former journalist Peter Wilkinson, and lawyer Chris Flynn with the aim of a Media Freedom Act to better protect reporting in Australia. The Alliance recently received a $500,000 donation via independent outlet Crikey following its victorious defamation defence against Lachlan Murdoch.

“What our Media Freedom Act would do is inject a positive obligation to consider media freedom at every stage of the judicial process and the bureaucratic process,” he says.

“What we've done is written a clause that says that if you are producing journalism according to a set of professional standards, then you deserve the right to be assumed by the courts to deserve protection in law, and that it's up to the investigating agencies, whether it's ASIO or the Australian Federal Police or any other of the agencies, to show the courts why you have failed in your obligation to live up to professional standards.”

Greste, a part-time professor of journalism at Sydney’s Macquarie University, also expressed concerns about the pace of evolution the media industry is experiencing compared to changes to what is being taught to undergraduate students.

“The craft skills that you need are changing so quickly that those skills are best left to the news organisations themselves. In my view, what's more important are the critical thinking skills, the literacy skills, the civic education, the understanding of politics, the understanding of the way the law works, the way the courts work,” he says.

“It's the ability to critically think about stories and analyse them and place them in context in Australian politics and society. That's what makes good journalists. Everything else is window dressing.”

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Have a great day.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition of The Unmakers features Brian O’Kelley, founder of Scope3, which attempts to measure the carbon footprint of advertising. Back in the day he helped create the programatic advertising industry, although he’s not entirely proud of the that legacy.

Further down, it was a poor day on the Unmade Index for the three TV players.

The only way to access Unmade’s full archive, and our weekly Tuesdata analysis, is as a paying member. Unmade members also get discounted tickets to our events, including Re:Made, our event on retail media.

‘Godfather of ad tech’ Brian O’Kelley’s new mission to tackle the ad industry’s environmental footprint

Today’s edition of The Unmakers features that man who some (including himself) credit as one of the inventors of programatic advertising.

Brian O’Kelley was cofounder of AppNexus, which has since been folded into Microsoft’s Xandr programatic platform. That’s led to him being labelled “the godfather of ad tech”.

His new project is Scope3, which measures the impact of advertising and media on the environment.

In the interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Seja Al Zaidi, O’Kelley discusses the high impact that digital advertising has on emissions output, thanks to the energy needs of server farms, along with the wastage created by unviewed ads.

“This illusion that the cloud is this fluffy place in the air is actually not accurate. The cloud is a bunch of big warehouses full of servers that use a huge amount of energy and cooling power,” he says.

And he rails against adland’s assumption that advertising campaigns inevitably include wastage where the target consumers are not being reached.

“I actually think that the ‘50% of advertising is wasted’ statement is one of the most damaging statements in the history of advertising,” he says. “It's become is an excuse not to worry about waste.

“We have so much more control over our advertising and where it goes, especially in digital, but increasingly in print and other channels, we are able to be more thoughtful about how we target our ads.”

Scope3 plans to expand across APAC under the leadership of local managing director June Cheung.

In the conversation, O’Kelley acknowledges that some of the promise of programtic has been unfulfilled: “Where we are today in the development of programmatic, it’s not doing what I aspired for it to do. It’s caused privacy issues, it’s caused national security issues. It’s caused commoditisation of quality content. There’s a lot of things that aren’t great.”

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

News Corp prepares for life under a new boss;
Foxtel rails against media rules;
Amazon Prime Video to turn on ads in Australia

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Unmade: Rupert’s last big strategic move?
Australian Financial Review: ‘Feeding frenzy’ of laws unfairly hit Foxtel, Delany says
About Amazon: Update on Prime Video

Time to leave you to start your week.

Editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition of the podcast features Colin Lewis, retail media evangelist and global marketing consultant. Further down, a particularly good day for Domain on The Unmade Index.

The only way to access Unmade’s full archive, and our weekly Tuesdata analysis, is as a paying member. Unmade members also get discounted tickets to our events, including our retail media conference Re:Made, which takes place next month.

‘The media business is a different game to retailing’

Ahead of his appearance at next month’s REmade conference, we talk to retail media evangelist and global consultant Colin Lewis about the state of play locally and globally.

In the conversation with REmade curator Cat McGinn, Lewis says Australia can lay claim to being among the most sophisticated retail media markets in the world.

He cites the media backgrounds of Coles360 boss Paul Brooks and Woolworths Cartology boss Mike Tyquin as key to the growth of the emerging sector. The duo both had deep media backgrounds until they moved across to the retail world. Brooks is a former CEO of Dentsu’s Carat and former Sydney sales director for Nine; Tyquin ran outdoor companies Adshel and Eye. That’s a mix not necessarily replicated in other markets.

According to Lewis: “Setting up an ad network is actually the smallest part of the whole thing. The real thing is that you’re in the media business - and the media business it’s a different game to retailing.

“This is one area where the Australian market is ahead of anyone else. I’ve worked with a lot of brands in the UK and they haven’t quite worked out that ‘the game I’m in, is the media business’. But if you look at the two biggest retail media brands in Australia - Coles and Woolworths, they’re led by media people - people who understand media and come from a media background.

“Australia is punching above its weight and probably second in the world in terms of its forward thinking and its approach.”

Lewi, who is the author of six best practice reports on retail media, focusing on Amazon, Walmart, Kroger, Target, and Instacart also writes a regular column for our RE:Made newsletter. His clients include the likes of Ferrero Rocher, Glambia, Colgate, and retailer clients like Superdrug, The Very Group, and Warehouse Group.

During the conversation, Lewis also tackles the imminent arrival of Nine into the space with its RTLX play, announced at their Upfronts earlier this month. According to Lewis, he has “question marks” about the move.

And he also addresses the growing presence of Amazon and offers a theory on how it has taken its hold . “We've got some new data showing that Amazon Prime is really far and away leading the pack in terms of TV on demand. It's almost as though Amazon has built it backwards. They've started with a marketplace and they've traveled up the funnel.”

RE:Made returns to Sydney on October 11. Along with Lewis, Brooks and Tyquin are all among the confirmed speakers. Tickets are on sale now.

Stronger performance across the Unmade Index

Seja Al Zaidi writes:

It was a solid day across the board on the Unmade Index yesterday, our measurement system of ASX-listed media and marketing stocks. It rose 1.65% to land at 630.2 points.

Domain performed the best, rising 3.29%. Seven West Media came in at a close second, lifting 3.23% in share price.

Ooh Media scored 1.85% rise while IVE Group rose 1.61%. Nine climbed 0.99%.

Enero Group was the only stock to move downwards, falling 3.13%.

Time to leave you to your Thursday. We’ll be back with an end of week update tomorrow.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Only Unmade’s paying members get full access to all of our content and archives. Sign up today.

Today:

Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson closing in on a record-breaking radio deal;
The invisible hand of Google;
Why every publisher talks about authenticity;
Nine Radio’s disclosure tangle

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi, and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Unmade: Publishers talk trust but does it matter?
Saturday Telegraph: Kyle and Jackie O push for record-breaking 10-year $200m radio deal
Australian Financial Review: Jackie O wants a radio exit strategy
Australian Financial Review: Government ‘concerned’ about Amazon plans to take 30pc cut of ads
The Australian: Radio broadcasters at Nine warned to declare commercial partnerships following Jacqui Felgate sponsorships saga

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

In today’s edition of the Unmakers, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes talks to Luke Spano, founder of Avid Collective, about his attempts to take the pain out of briefing native campaigns.

Avid Collective, founded in 2017, has evolved from an unremarkable publisher to trying to solve a bigger publishing problem - how brands can brief out native campaigns at scale.

Avid is carving out a place within the long tail of native content with the aim of making it easier for media agencies and brands to work with smaller publishers like Pedestrian Group, Urban List, Junkee, Forbes Australia, Daily Mail Australia, The Guardian, Frankie, and Forbes Australia. It works with brands and agencies including New Zealand Tourism, Westpac, OMD, Lion, Unilever and Mindshare, and has access to over 140 publishers.

Avid’s platform and staff sit between brands and publishers, pushing out briefs and helping manage the responses and campaign delivery.

“We use the moniker brief once, personalise everywhere,” Spano says of Avid’s approach. ‘You're only doing one set of briefing that's going into the platform, but then that will be distributed out to the publishers. It's still the publishers and individual content creators that are creating the content.”

The promise of native advertising has been somewhat tarnished by the low quality output driven by the likes of Taboola and Outbrain.

Spano acknowledges: “They've definitely given the word native a bit of a dirty name and tarnished it a little bit because a lot of the content that gets distributed through there is quite low quality.”

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

STW: How Nine’s pitch ranges from $500 self service ads to $12.5m Olympics sponsorship packages

Today:

Dissecting Nine’s Upfronts promises, RTLX, and their AI offering;
News Corp warns of AI-induced job losses;
Rough seas ahead for publishers as News Media Bargaining Code negotiations restart;
Our program reveal for REMade next month;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi, Abe Udy and Cat McGinn.

Further reading:

Unmade: Upfronts are always big and glitzy. Nine's was consequential too
The Australian: News Corp chief Robert Thomson predicts significant job losses due to the growing threat from AI
Australian Financial Review: Facebook traffic to news publishers has plummeted 50pc this year
Australian Financial Review: Nine banks on bumper Olympics advertising package spend
Australian Financial Review: Jim Chalmers’ conflict of interest for the media bargaining code fray

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition of The Unmakers features Tony Simmons, founder of audio technology startup Sonnant. Anyone interested in understanding how spoken audio content will be monetised in the future will find it a fascinating listen.

In today’s edition of the Unmakers, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes talks to Tony Simmons, CEO and founder of Sonnant, an Australia-founded AI platform for broadcast and podcast audio that is set to become a major player in the monetisation of digital audio.

Sonnant uses AI to automate many of the manual processes taking place behind the scenes in audio businesses including Southern Cross Austereo, ARN, Nova and Nine. In the future it offers the prospect of real time insertion of advertising that fits within the context of the conversation.

Simmons doesn’t come from the traditional radio world. He hails from a tech and data background and started his career as a commercial lawyer before founding and selling several software businesses over the last 15 years.

“We were doing AI before it was sexy,: says Simmons. “Maybe we weren't doing podcasts before they were sexy, but we were right ahead of the curve in terms of blending the two together.”

Sonnant converts content into data for a variety of functions - including indexing content to make recalling clips of words or phrases from the archive instant, AI-powered content summaries, asset creation including clips and audiograms, permanent clip housing and automated speaker identification.

“Behind every word, there's energy, there's sentiment, there's how long you pause for, there's volume, there's gap between previous word, gap between the next word. If you look at human communication and try to turn that into data, that is a massive exercise. In order to automate things effectively and replicate human endeavour, data is the building blocks to be able to do that from a technology point of view,” Simmons explains.

“So the starting point for us was understand what data points are there and then what data points are going to be relevant to automate manual work and increase the lifeblood of this industry, impressions and advertising dollars.”

The software is also developed to identify how advertising can help be contextualised for optimal relevance.

The product is also adept at creating social media-ready content like audiograms that are contextually relevant without needing zero human input or editing. “Everyone's seen how ChatGPT can create web pages and summarize content. So being able to turn one long-form piece of content into all your tweets and all your YouTube shorts and Instagram posts is a no-brainer as far as producing long-form content. Pulling out the relevant hashtags, putting your headline in this can all be done through incredible automation at scale.”

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Upfronts season arrives - what to expect from Nine, Seven, Paramount, Foxtel, Are Media, YouTube and the independents;
Another payday for Clemenger Group shareholders as Omnicom increases its stake again;
Understanding how much online news content is worth;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Unmade: Hard to find a Voice
Australian Financial Review: Media giants line up to pitch to advertisers at this year’s Upfronts
Australian Financial Review: ‘Get rich slowly’ scheme pays off again for Clemenger
Australian Financial Review: How much is news content worth to Google? Swiss researchers found out

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s episode features an interview with one of Australia’s most storied media figures - former Insiders host Barrie Cassidy, who shares his unfiltered thoughts on the state of the Australian media landscape, the ABC, Michelle Guthrie’s turbulent tenure as ABC boss, the devolution of the prime minister’s press office, and the unhealthy coziness between politicians and journalists that’s developed in recent years.

If there was ever someone to offer an authoritative account on the evolution (or devolution) on the state of Australia’s media, it would be Barrie Cassidy, former foreign correspondent and original host of ABC’s Sunday morning Insiders program for 18 years.

In conversation with Unmade’s Seja Al Zaidi, Cassidy offers a candid analysis on the state of political journalism, the ‘arrogance’ of the ABC when it comes to outside criticism, and his loss of faith in editorial judgments across the media industry after the Robodebt Inquiry was poorly covered.

The conversation begins with Cassidy’s scorching assessment of how prime ministers’ press offices have devolved in how they try to manage the media. Cassidy was former PM Bob Hawke’s press advisor from 1986 to 1991. He believes the decline began in the Kevin Rudd years, as political operators began to see an opportunity to fill the void created by 24 hour news.

"“And that's a very different way of operating now than what exists today, where they have so many press secretaries that they're able to get so heavily involved in media manipulation,” says Cassidy. “They get to the point where they really do think they can manage the media.”

He warns that journalists are now reluctant to hold politicians to account the way they used to, because of the fear of being frozen out from information.

“The end result of this - and I think it's a sad development in terms of how political journalism works - is the coziness of the relationship between the politicians and the journalists. They all depend so much on one another and it becomes this bubble, this club where where there's an attempt to mutually benefit one another,”

While Cassidy classifies the biggest change in the Australian media landscape in the last decade as News Corp becoming “more blatantly propagandist”, he doesn’t spare his alma mater, the ABC, from criticism either.

Though he believes the ABC to be ‘the most important public institution’ in the country, he also says it's “become just a little too arrogant and authoritarian in some respects” He’s also critical of proposals to move some ABC operations to Parramatta as “tokenism”.

On the topic of the ABC, Cassidy also explains why he believes former managing director Michelle Guthrie’s tenure was such a failure, and made her predecessor Mark Scott so successful.

Today’s podcast was produced by Seja Al Zaidi and edited by Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead. Today: Streaming battles; Dodgy dealings at the TMH; and the verdict on Ita.

Ritson’s call to put the I back into AI
Ousted Market Herald boss Jag Sanger has harsh words about The Market Herald management;
Telstra unveils its move across to Fetch for home streamers
Telsyte reveals that while Netflix still dominates local streaming sits numbers are falling
SBS boss James Taylor joins ABC boss David Anderson in quietly signing new contract
The verdict on Ita Buttrose

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Ousted founder accuses Market Herald executives of tanking the company
Unmade: In the Market Herald boardroom, shame is in short supply
Australian Financial Review: Telstra escalates platform wars with $50m Fetch TV bet
Australian Financial Review: Netflix loses subscribers in Australia for first time since 2015
Sydney Morning Herald: Scoring Ita Buttrose’s five-year tenure as chair of the ABC
Sydney Morning Herald: The quiet reappointment of the men who run Australia’s public broadcasters
The Australian: Another five years for ABC managing director

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s AI-centred edition of the Unmade podcast features an interview with Arpit Jain, global president of Publicis Groupe’s AI engine Marcel.

While most holding companies have been increasingly reluctant to talk about how they are using generative AI as the risks around intellectual property and confidentiality began to outweigh the buzz, Publicis has enough points on the board to talk about its achievments.

Publicis earned drew widespread scepticism, and even derision, back in 2017 when it announced it was withdrawing from entering awards and redirecting the budget towards developing a new AI operating system, Marcel.

Six years on, Publicis has been vindicated, with Marcel now functioning as the organisation’s operating system. Marcel connects 80,000 Publicis employees and enables them to connect over an intranet of sorts that is optimised by artificial intelligence.

The name is a tribute to Marcel Bleustein-Blanchet, who founded Publicis in 1926.

In today’s interview, Cat McGinn, curator of Unmade’s AI-focused event HumAIn talks to Arpit Jain, global president of Marcel.

In the conversation, he explains how Marcel works for staff and clients and also tackles the question of how AI will change the evolution of the workforce in the communications industry.

A mechanical engineer by trade, Jain spent 12 years at Publicis before the Marcel era, with roles spanning technology, strategy, product management and client services. he returned to the organisation in 2021 to take the helm of the Marcel project.

Despite concerns expressed elsewhere, Jain argues for optimism about jobs, workflow and creative output.

“My philosophy is, how do you take advantage of it? This is all created by humans. Technology is created for your benefit. We are enabling everyone to learn. See how it helps you to be a better version of yourself and do your job better. It’s in our hands to use this to our benefit and learn new skills.”

"It will create tons of new jobs. You need to give it time. It’s not going to happen overnight. Keep learning new things and keep using it to your benefit - that’s what we’re doing at Publicis Groupe.”

Find out more about Marcel here.

Today’s podcast was produced by Seja Al Zaidi and edited by Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

A rubbish start to earnings season;
The week in results;
A twist in the government’s sports siphoning laws;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Unmade: Seven sets course for an unremarkable decade
Unmade: SCA disappoints the market
Unmade: Enero uncovers another Photon legacy to tidy up
Australian Financial Review: Fewer sports behind TV paywalls under proposed reforms
The Australian: Australia’s big banks sharply cut back their advertising for home loans
The Australian: ABC advertising spend hits $8.92m as it works to fix radio, TV ratings
Sydney Morning Herald: Delta flies high as Netflix increases Australian content

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Matildas mania;
Is the uplift in Tassie tourism because of the ads?;
Could a QMS sale be on the cards?;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Football Australia chases record TV deal after Matildas success
The Australian: Matildas’ historic success a bargain for Seven with record audiences tuning into the World Cup
The Australian: Tourism Tasmania’s marketing campaign attracts visitors, boosts local economy
Sydney Morning Herald: QMS boss bats away suggestions of sale

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s episode features an interview with Adam Ferrier and Jim Ingram, co-founders of full service agency Thinkerbell. The agency recently bought back consultancy PwC’s stake in the business, returning it to full independence.

It’s been six years since the launch of Thinkerbell, a communications agency with foundations in creativity, media strategy, public relations and until recently a foot in the consulting world too. Back when Russel Howcroft was leading PWC’s marketing consultancy arm, the company took a ten percent in the fledgling Thinkerbell which started with the simple proposition of “measured magic”

That part of Thinkerbell changed direction last month when the founders bought back PWC’s stake in the agency as the consultancy struggles with its own existential crisis.

Now that Thinkerbell is fully independent, it was an ideal time for Unmade’s Tim Burrowes to speak to founders Adam Ferrier and Jim Ingram to try and discover why Thinkerbell has succeeded when so many others have not.

The discussion ranges from Thinkerbell’s new start, to the future of the CMO, the rationale for Ferrier’s above-the-parapet TV profile, AI in Thinkerbell, and the secret sauce of their ‘Tinker’ and ‘Thinker’ agency structure. They also tackle some of the agency’s defining work including February’s show stopping '“Tall Poppy” mini film for CGU.

“The marketing science meets hardcore creativity was a really obvious meeting place for where we started the agency,” Ingram says, explaining the synergy of the varied backgrounds of co-founders Ferrier, and Ben Couzens along with Margie Reid who brought order to the agency when she joined soon after launch.

"When the ideas are being had, the concept of how they’re going to be executed and bringing them to life, all starts to happen at the same time as part of the creation process,” Ingram adds.

On the PwC departure, Ferrier says "It feels like the right time to leave.

“We’re now enjoying being 100% rather than 90% independent. Transparency of process is absolutely fundamental to good business today.”

Ferrier also did his best to avoid offering advice on how PWC should tackle its own PR crisis, despite being pushed.

He was more frank about his motivations to be on TV so often. “It must be my ego that drives it. That’s not mutually exclusive to good business sense. Will Leach once told me there’s no business model in flying under the radar.”

Today’s podcast was produced by Seja Al Zaidi and edited by Abe’s Audio the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Our thoughts on Advertising Week APAC;
TV bosses lobbying in Canberra;
Earnings season predictions;
News Corp kills ad platform project;
Another editor departs Mumbrella;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Unmade: Television’s audience decline goes main stage
The Australian: TV bosses head to Canberra as lobbying efforts heat up
Sydney Morning Herald: Smart TV showdown on cards as networks fine-tune pitch to Canberra
Australian Financial Review: News Corp kills major Accenture-advised advertising platform project
Australian Financial Review: Mumbo jumble

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Last month, Unmade held our humAIn conference, focused on the impact of AI on the marketing world.

We ended the day with the Great DebAIt, in which our panellists tackled the threats and opportunities of AI head on.

The debate saw two opposing teams, with backgrounds across media and marketing, dispute the proposition that “generative AI is not a threat to media and marketing jobs, but a much-needed tool to expand what’s possible at speed and low cost”.

The speakers debating the proposition were:

Dre Horton, Co-Founder, Knowing.Me
Wade Kingsley, Founder, The Ideas Business
Henry Innis, Co-Founder and CEO, Mutinex
Cam Price, Co-Founder and CEO, Leadstory
Larissa Thorne, Director of Digital and Content, Keep Left
Emile Rademeyer, Executive Director, Creative Strategy, Vandal

Our audience vote had the final word on the debate. To find out who won, listen on.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Today:

Foxtel drops more hints about Project Magneto;
DDB doubles down on digital with RAPP;
ARN’s cryptic message for Kyle and Jackie O;
The Logies make a splash for Seven;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: Foxtel aims to disrupt with ‘Project Magneto’ in quest to translate users into profits
Sydney Morning Herald: Streaming subscriptions continue to grow despite surge in cancellations
The Australian: Performance marketing agency RAPP opens in Australia
Unmade: How to mess up your marketing funnel
Australian Financial Review: ARN buys skywriting to impress Kyle and Jackie O

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing by Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

In today’s podcast conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Will Hayward, CEO of Private Media, discusses innovating within the confines of a challenging media landscape; where the company plans to take Private Media’s business model; the economics of publishing; and the personal toll of the company’s defamation battle with Lachlan Murdoch.

Private Media runs four publications in Australia: news and investigations platform Crikey, small business masthead SmartCompany (which Hayward describes as the ‘reverse of Crikey’), Inc. Australia and public sector-focused The Mandarin.

While Crikey might be Private Media’s most famous asset - including controversial columnists like Guy Rundle in its ranks, and a mission to “tell the truth and shame the devil” - Hayward is as keen to discuss his passion for niche categories that attract readers who are obsessed with a particular subject matter.

“I am very passionate about boring categories. People outside the category think it’s boring, people within the category are obsessed with how much information there is. It needs to be sufficiently big so it can support an advertising product and subscription product, if not also an events product. It’s likely to be run by someone not from a commercial background, rather than someone likely to go into it because there’s money there.”

“The category needs to be information dense. I don’t think the future of media is more Buzzfeeds, more Vices, those products are really hard to build and run in a sustainable way, and clearly the market is showing that to be true, with Vice going bankrupt and Buzzfeed running at a third of its revenue.”

Hayward’s interest in publishing niches is one thing he has in common with the executive chairman of News Corp, Michael Miller, who evangelised deep niches when he was interviewed for the Unmade podcast back in March.

Hayward also discusses how Private Media is planning its growth beyond its current sites. “Within the centre of the company we are working very hard to build a great media product and make great media experiences irrespective of the category we operate in, and deploy that across all of our products. The obvious question after all that, is if you have built a really good product and growth strategy, why apply it to only four things? Private Media is currently thinking about what inorganic growth might look like in the future.”

Hayward also insists he wouldn’t change much about last year’s2022 legal confrontation between Crikey and Lachlan Murdoch, where Murdoch filed a defamation lawsuit against the publisher for claiming his family were "unindicted co-conspirators" in the US Capitol riots thanks to the role of Fox News in stoking unrest. He reveals that the saga led to him seeking professional help for the impact it had on his mental health.

“Litigation is a very tense emotional battle that draws a significant personal cost. it’s hard to reflect on that without going into emotional things,” he says on the matter.

“I had the cast-iron belief we did the right thing. While it caused me a huge degree of personal unhappiness, I felt with absolute certainty it was the correct moral action to take.”

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Today’s podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Today:

Flat landscape ahead for Australian marketing industry;
‘Biggest horror decisions’ in Aussie media;
Is Netflix losing its grip on the region?;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: Tricky six months ahead for media despite ad market green shoots
Sydney Morning Herald: Can I have that one back? Australian media’s biggest ‘horror decisions’
Australian Financial Review: Asia-Pacific emerges as weak spot in Netflix streaming figures
Unmade: Investors still think Netflix subscribers are worth $1300 each. That's crazy

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an interview with Chris Janz, co-founder of Australia’s biggest media launch of the year, Scire.

In today’s edition of The Unmakers, Chris Janz, co-founder of Scire, talks to Unmade’s Tim Burrowes about the company’s plans for its first publication, Capital Brief, which launches in around six weeks’ time.

Janz was previously chief digital and publishing officer of Nine, and in the running for the CEO vacancy which eventually went to Mike Sneesby in 2021. Earlier in his career, Janz edited News Corp’s news.com.au, before moving into business, including digital publishing company Allure Media which was later acquired by Fairfax Media. He was also publisher of the short-lived HuffPo Australia.

Janz, and Scire co-founder David Eisman, worked together on Fairfax’s now celebrated Blue Team, who led a secret project which saved the company’s newspapers, including The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age from exiting from print.

Capital Brief will focus on business and, as Janz reveals in the interview, will put out its main newsletter in the afternoon, a new cadence compared to existing publications in the space.

This week Scire revealed a raft of new journalist appointments including former Australian Financial Review banking specialist Andrew Cornell, who led ANZ Blue Notes, which was perhaps the biggest brand-funded corporate newsroom in the country. Wall Street Journal correspondent Philip Wen, Nine’s departing foreign affairs and national security correspondent Anthony Galloway - who Janz says ‘understands how power really works’ - and ex-Sydney Morning Herald and The Age economics correspondent Jennifer Duke, who will be based in Canberra, are among the other new arrivals.

Others include Bronwen Clune covering startups; Jack Derwin covering markets and finance; Kate Burgess covering mining and energy; Laurel Henning covering the legal and regulatory beats; and Dan Van Boom covering technology.

They’ll all be led by Capital Brief’s editor-in-chief, John McDuling, Nine’s former national business editor, who was the first hire announced.

Capital Brief is intended to appeal to ‘those people driving the new economy, the new Australia’. Janz says it’ll be focused on what the ‘future of Australian business is all about’.

“One of the challenges of business journalism sometimes is it can drift into just servicing the big end of town. We hear a lot about the ASX200, the ASX50.”

“We’re about looking at the broad spectrum of Australian business as it is today and looking forward.”

Janz also discusses the investors behind the company, Shearwater Capital, and the rules of engagement if Scire journalists find themselves writing about the owners’ investments.

During his time at Nine, Janz was in the room for negotiations with Alphabet’s Google and Facebook under the shadow of the News Media Bargaining Code. After leaving Nine, he then helped overseas publishers with similar negotiations.

He has a pessimistic prediction for how the publishing environment will change when the previous deals expire. “The Meta renewals are up within the next 12-ish months. There’s a real challenge ahead for people who’ve built parts of their business off the back of that revenue. When you have what might be $100m a year disappearing from the funding models through Meta withdrawing from the country… I think it is going to pose a challenge.”

Today’s podcast was recorded and edited at the Sydney studio of Abe’s Audio the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

We’ll be back with more tomorrow.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

ABC management to overhaul troubled radio stations;
Optus and Seven reveal Women’s World Cup sponsors;
Scire’s Capital Brief reveals journo hires;
Clemenger BBDO announces all-female leadership hires;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Seja Al Zaidi and Abe Udy.

Today’s edition also includes highlights from last week’s HumAIn panel, Art + Science: AI for Content.

The panel includes Ivy Hornibrook, product lead at Canva, Emile Rademeyer of Vandal, Mary Proulx of Bread Agency and Rick Durham from Meltwater. Elle Green of The Martec was the moderator.

Further reading:

The Australian: ABC management working on a report to urgently overhaul its troubled radio stations
Australian Financial Review: Less than 8pc of the ABC’s flagship news viewers are under 40
Unmade: Triple J five-city audience at yet another new low in its target demo
The Australian: Guthrie returns to disrupt the airwaves
Unmade: 'The critics are saying they're going to give us six months': Trying to make sense of Disrupt Radio
Australian Financial Review: Women’s World Cup offers broadcaster Optus a shot at redemption
Unmade: Home advantage but will the World Cup become an Australian moment?
The Australian: New venture’s D-Day with host of ex-Nine journos

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an interview with Disrupt Radio’s chief commercial and innovation officer, Rob Shwetz. We left the interview with almost as many questions as we went in, but perhaps with a better sense of what Australia’s newest radio network does not want to talk about.

Tim Burrowes writes:

I find business fascinating. I adore startup stories. And I’m a media nerd. So I should be absolutely in love with the story of Disrupt Radio, which combines all three.

The network launched last month, online, and with DAB+ licences in Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane.

But the more I find out, the more sceptical I become. For a radio network using public airwaves, there’s a lot of undisclosed information about its ownership.

Listening to today’s interview with Rob Shwetz, chief commercial and innovation officer at Disrupt Radio, may leave you with almost as many questions as you had before you started. However, the conversation should help you understand why I’m puzzled by so much of the Disrupt Radio launch.

Unless you work in the media industry, I wouldn’t blame you if you have missed the story of Disrupt Radio so far. I certainly wouldn’t be expecting many listeners to have yet had the awareness to tune in. There’s been some publicity, but I haven’t seen any paid ads looking to attract an audience, although the company says it has done some outdoor.

The best known presenters are Enterprise Breakfast host Libbi Gorr and Startup Nation host Jules Lund. Thinkerbell’s Adam Ferrier is a weekly co-host on Gorr’s show, while another ad industry stalwart Siimon Reynolds presents The Business Lounge.

Among the curious things about Disrupt Radio is that the management won’t say who its financial backers are. In the interview, Shwetz claims not to know, despite having worked alongside Roberts on the launch for the past five years.

Given that there’s a staff of about 20, that suggests an annual cost base of at least $2m, and probably more.

I suppose it’s in keeping with Disrupt Radio’s communications strategy, which Schwetz describes in the interview as “PR by stealth”.

Similarly, Shwetz says he has no idea what the marketing budget is for the station during this current financial year already under way. To be clear, marketing is one of his responsibilities.

Schwetz’s previous background has included director of client strategy at Fairfax Media’s client content arm, Made. And he also spent five years as group strategy director of Mediacom in Sydney. Earlier in his career, he lists six years as strategy director for brand, media and creative at Publicis.

Yes, it’s a fast-moving startup (albeit one five years in the planning), but he is the person in charge of marketing. Most CMOs would know by now what their budget for FY24 is.

There are other things which are a puzzle. Did wealthy (and busy) former rock star Bob Geldof really travel over from the UK and spend a week in Melbourne co-presenting the breakfast show with Libbi Gorr just out of his love of the radio medium? That feels a little unlikely, despite Shwetz’s insistence that it’s the case. “There’s nothing more than him coming and loving the medium”.

Similarly, one of the hitherto less commented-upon presences on the daily lineup is UK polemicist Rod Liddle, who interviews entrepreneurs for a daily show called Global Disruptors (or perhaps Disrupters; they spell it both ways on the Disrupt website).

Liddle is a great get. It’s strange they’ve done so little to promote this. Liddle is a massive name in UK media. He was a hugely controversial (and successful) editor of BBC Radio 4’s flagship Today program, and currently writes for News Corp’s daily tabloid The Sun and broadsheet The Sunday Times, along with influential right wing weekly The Spectator. He writes beautifully. Yet they haven’t mentioned him. It would be like Andrew Bolt popping up on a hospital radio station in the UK and nobody thinking that seemed comment-worthy.

Could it be that there are UK investors involved in the station? Maybe even Geldof, most prominent globally for his role in creating Live Aid, but he’s also been an investor in media ventures. Shwetz says not.

Shwetz declines in the interview to name any investors. Incidentally, since recording the podcast, I’ve emailed Disrupt Radio to ask that question directly.

Perhaps sports radio minnow Sports Entertainment Network, run by Craig Hutchinson, has a stake. The DAB+ licences came from SEN, Shwetz said during the interview, and staff work from their offices. “It’s quite a close commercial and working relationship with SEN”.

Shwetz also declines in the interview to share how listening numbers have been via streaming so far, although he claims they have exceeded expectations.

He makes an ambitious statement about the network’s aims for audience, saying the company aims to hit a weekly cumulative reach of 250,000 to 300,000. That would be about the same as ABC Radio National.

Not that Shwetz would commit to signing up to the ratings system, claiming that they haven’t had time to think about it. Remember, this is a startup five years in the making.

I wonder what level of data they will provide to early sponsors, who include Telstra and GWM.

To be clear, this interview was not a case of catching the wrong person unawares. When the PRs for Disrupt Radio proposed Shwetz for the interview, rather than Benjamin Roberts who we had been asking to talk to for months, we questioned whether he’d be qualified. We sent through examples of four podcasts I’d previously recorded with other start ups and media bosses to give a sense of the topics I ask about, in case they were not regular listeners.

They replied: “We've put Rob up for this because he's actually more suited to your audience, as he is head of marketing, advertising and media relations. He's worked alongside Ben to develop and launch the company over the past 5 years which was how the station was founded.”

With Roberts off the table, we decided to go ahead with the Shwetz interview.

This may be a slightly frustrating read, because you may have got to this point feeling like you know less than you did at the beginning. Give it a listen and decide for yourself.

In all our podcasts, I finish by asking our guest what their supporters say about them, and what their detractors say. Shwetz’s reply was: “The critics are saying they’re going to give us six months.”

Fair enough.

For the record, I’d still love to talk to Benjamin Roberts.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Only Unmade’s paying members get full access to all of our content and archives. Sign up today.

Today:

Peta Credlin and Tony Abbott’s new podcasting venture;
A reboot for Domain’s Melbourne print operation;
Twitter rival Threads finds its feet after first week;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

The Australian: Tony Abbott and Peta Credlin join forces for new Sky podcast
Australian Financial Review: Tony Abbott’s next act? Podcasting
Sydney Morning Herald: Domain and Broadsheet team up to sidestep struggling print revenue
The Australian: Launch of social media app Threads a ‘nightmare scenario’ for Twitter owner Elon Musk, former Facebook exec says
Unmade: New Threads, who dis?

Time to leave you to start your week.

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Today’s edition features an interview with one of Australia’s most storied investigative journalists, Nine’s Nick McKenzie. It coincides with the publication of McKenzie’s book about disgraced SAS soldier Ben Roberts-Smith

The Age and Sydney Morning Herald’s Nick McKenzie is one of Australia’s most acclaimed investigate journalists. With 14 Walkley Awards and a stint as president of the Melbourne Press Club under his belt, McKenzie’s latest battle had the highest possible stakes - with the future of investigative journalism in Australia and indeed his own career on the line.

The investigative reporting of McKenzie and colleague Chris Masters into the misconduct of Ben Roberts-Smith and other Australian SAS troops in Afghanistan resulted in the most significant defamation battle in at least two decades.

McKenzie’s book on the Ben Roberts-Smith saga, Crossing The Line, has now been published.

In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, McKenzie discusses the realities of the investigative process, what it was like battling a formerly lauded Anzac war hero in courtrooms over the last five years and the personal toll it took.

“It’s a miracle that we won this case because the law is geared to favour applicants, it’s geared to favour rich people suing journalists,” McKenzie says.

“Knowing that the weight of law and precedent is against you, and knowing how hard it is to prove war crimes in a civil court, it was unbelievably stressful. To contest this case, we had to keep digging through evidence and information, we could never rest.”

The fight was also on company lines, with BRS, who was until recently employed as GM of Seven Queensland, being funded in the case by Seven West Media proprietor Kerry Stokes.

McKenzie decries the tribalism of Australian media. “That tribalism and competitiveness exists in all companies. The ABC’s at war with commercial media, commercial media’s at war with itself, everyone is fighting. That’s partly a function of there being some unpleasant people, but it’s also a commercial reality. We’re all fighting for our commercial lives - it’s a tough environment out there, there’s a limited ad market, there are fierce contest for sporting rights, there is literally commercial war at play.”

McKenzie undertook much of his work alongside his long-time ‘mentor’ - investigative reporter Chris Masters of the Sydney Morning Herald.

“Chris Masters and I endured a very difficult process. We were there for each other through that process,” McKenzie says.

“It’s not to say there wasn’t tension in the relationship; we’re two very different journalists with different ways of reporting. But that camaraderie and us applying our two different ways of doing journalism was so effective, so powerful.”

“I think journalism is best done as a partnership.”

Nine’s 60 Minutes report on the court case featured an image of Masters and McKenzie working in the NSW State Library. It was reminiscent of an iconic scene in All The President’s Men, the classic movie of investigative journalists Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein’s work on the Watergate scandal

Asked about the similarity of the images, it’s one of just a couple of occasions in the interview when McKenzie slips away from the question. The other is when he’s asked about the possibility of Nine or its streaming service Stan making a docu-drama about the case.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Could Kyle and Jackie O be on the move?;
The pressure is on for Radio National;
Twitter users face global meltdown;
Regional mastheads face government ad spend cuts;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: ‘Sports rights for radio’: Kyle & Jackie O open to offers from rivals
The Australian: Twitter limits number of posts users can read, prompting disruptions for some
The Australian Financial Review: Twitter allegedly failed to pay to dismantle its Sydney office
The Australian: ABC board tells management that radio network needs to be ‘urgently’ overhauled
Sydney Morning Herald: Regional media reels amid ‘unprecedented’ government advertising cuts
The Guardian: Shuffling the deck: Canberra Times drops 101-year-old bridge columnist as part of cost-cutting drive | The weekly beast

Production was by Seja Al Zaidi with editing was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Today’s edition of The Unmakers features adland royalty Justin Drape and Michael Canning, co-founders of travel platform Exceptional Alien. This month, they stepped back into the brand space with the brand-focused Exceptional Alien Studio.

Welcome to the latest episode of The Unmakers, Unmade’s podcast series where we talk to the people remaking the media and marketing world.

Today’s interview features Justin Drape and Michael Canning.

In business terms, Drape has been one of the most accomplished creatives Australia has seen in recent years. He was was co-founder of creative agency The Monkeys, arguably Australia’s most successful creative agency startup of the last two decades. It was sold to Accenture for a $63m back in 2017.

Meanwhile, Canning has held a string of creative leadership roles at some of the best known agency networks, including M&C Saatchi in Australia, along with Leo Burnett and 72&Sunny in the US.

Two years ago, the duo swapped the agency world for publishing when they launched Exceptional Alien as a series of app-first local travel guides, fronted by celebrated creators.

The new Exceptional Agency Studio will see Drape and Canning offer their talents to marketers, not just creating content for brands on the Exceptional Alien platform, but helping with bigger brand challenges. Essentially, they’re back in the agency business.

Exceptional Alien is already building. “I think that we’re scaling, and I think success for Exceptional Alien will be an international audience that we’re already growing. That’s what we’re aiming for. We have team members in LA and New York. We have a lot of interest in partnerships that will be announced soon,” Drape says.

If you're an Unmaker with a story to tell about how you're changing the media and marketing world, we’d love to hear from you on letters@unmade.media.

Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio and produced by Seja Al Zaidi.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Recriminations around ARN Media’s raid on SCA;
Parliamentarians prepare to call for a total ban on betting ads;
Disrupt Radio officially launches;
Australia’s platform laws get picked up globally;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Seja Al Zaidi.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Kyle & Jackie O’s boss ignites silent fury among his own investors
Sydney Morning Herald: Southern Cross plots revival as new boss takes the helm
Unmade: Why ARN raided SCA
The Australian: Bob Geldof to co-host breakfast show on start-up station Disrupt Radio
Sydney Morning Herald: Media, wagering outfits brace for ads ban ahead of gambling report
The Australian: News laws in Canada put Google, Facebook under global pressure

Time to leave you to start your week

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an interview with the new leadership team at Havas Australia, creative network CEO James Wright and Host/Havas boss Gayle While, a little over three months into their tenure.

The first 100 days of Wright and While’s leadership at Havas

Back in February, Havas Australia announced two key new appointments: the return from overseas of James Wright as CEO of Havas Creative Network, and Gayle While leading the advertising part of the business as boss of Host/Havas.

In Wright’s previous time in Australia he made a name for himself in the PR space turning around Red Agency (now Red Havas). While comes from a creative agency hinterland, including running Clemenger BBDO in Melbourne.

In today’s podcast, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes talks to Wright and While about their new remits, previous experiences in communications agencies and dynamic of their leadership alongside a team of creatives.

“It’s about bringing back some of our creative confidence, not just as Havas, but the ripple effect into the industry that can have,” While says.

“With so many headwinds being thrown at us, we’ve probably lost some of that swagger or bravery in the creative work, now is a brilliant time as an industry to show we’ve got great talent, an embarrassment of riches in creative talent.”

Wright wants to remake Havas as a ‘bold, progressive and sexy’ group, while balancing the mission to create ‘stickiness’ for their clients’ brands.

The duo also discuss whether the legacy of Havas PR agency One Green Bean and Host at the cutting edge of social media can be resuscitated.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Disrupt Radio announces the first AI newsreader;
Fast food advertising faces a possible crackdown;
What does Gen Z really think about out of home?;
Michelle Rowland steps in on ABC job cuts;
SBS announces new key hire of Victor Corones;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes, Abe Udy and Seja Al Zaidi.

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: Radio start-up brings legendary news anchor out of retirement
The Australian: Bob Geldof to co-host breakfast show on start-up station Disrupt Radio
Australian Financial Review: Teal push for new junk food advertising ban
JCDecaux: Gen Z: The IRL opportunity
The Australian: Michelle Rowland demands meeting with ABC boss David Anderson over job cuts
AdNews: Victor Corones joins SBS

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s edition features an interview with Colin Daniels, managing director of the first SXSW Sydney.

Colin Daniels, the man bringing SXSW down under

Entertainment and media festival South By Southwest is coming to Australia for the first time in October. The man responsible for bringing the event to Sydney is Colin Daniels - a veteran of the music industry including more than a decade running music company Inertia which he left last year after becoming managing director of SXSW Sydney.

Daniels has racked up an impressive nineteen visits to SXSW over the years. His vision for SXSW Sydney is for it to be a combination of film screenings, networking events, conferences and other interactive set-ups designed to appeal to “the United Nations of the creative industries”.

With less than five months to go, SXSW has now announced its first speakers including marketer and venture capitalist Guy Kawasaki, futurist Amy Webb, and GroupM CEO Christian Juhl.

In conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Daniels unveils what SXSW Sydney has in store for the Australian media and marketing community. The SXSW team has been developing the program in consultation with the local industry, although in the interview Daniels does concede he was initially hard to get hold of when interest in the event outstripped his ability to get back to everyone.

Adland has been leaning into the local program. “Our number one attendee for SXSW Sydney based on registration and interest is the marketing and advertising industry," Daniels says.

“For the media and marketing conference tracks, we had 200 submissions just from agencies and media organisations.”

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back with Best of the Week tomorrow.

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an interview with Steve O’Connor, chief executive of outdoor giant JCDecaux and long-standing director of the Outdoor Media Association.

JCDecaux Australia & New Zealand boss Steve O’Connor has been in the out of home advertising game for a long time - about 30 years, to be precise. It’s been almost 24 years since O’Connor joined the Outdoor Media Association as a director. Five years into his tenure, he was appointed CEO of JCDecaux in 2004.

In today’s interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, O’Connor discusses JCDecaux’s journey to digitisation, and its progress in programmatic amid a rapidly evolving out of home landscape.

While O’Connor is largely bullish on programmatic, that does not necessarily mean that all billboards will be digital any time soon. “I don’t think we’ll ever be 100 percent digital,” O’Connor says.

“There will always be a role for classic billboards in regional markets, and a few locations focused on directional or point of sale outdoor - that’s always got a role to play,” he adds.

Also discussed is the ‘long, long term’ objective of a 90-95% split between digital and classic revenues. Close to 10% of JCDecaux’s digital revenues this year have been from programmatic - a sign that the ‘big bet made on programmatic’ is starting to pay off.

“We’re getting a good premium on our programmatic trading,” says O’Connor

The conversation also turns to the long-awaited arrival of the ad industry’s upgraded measurement system, MOVE 2.0, probably next year.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back soon.

letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Tabcorp set to auction rights for Melbourne Cup;
The Market Herald awaits Takeover Panel outcome;
The launch of Radio 360;
Kochie’s last week at Sunrise, Shirvo announced as successor;
Toxic workplace allegations hit Kochie’s streaming business Ausbiz;
Mutinex continues its march;
Business lobby groups take aim at Labor with anti-IR campaigns

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Tabcorp asks free-to-air broadcasters for Melbourne Cup bids
Australian Financial Review: ‘They didn’t listen’: business takes aim at Labor’s union agenda
Sydney Morning Herald: Channel 10 sues former star Peter van Onselen
Australian Financial Review: Toxic workplace allegations hit Ausbiz as staff line up for exit
The Australian: Radio ratings firm GfK’s new Radio 360 data set to launch

Time to leave you to start your week

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an interview with Jason Tonelli, boss of media agency Zenith and the new chair of the Audited Media Association of Australia.

It’s two decades since Publicis Group’s second string media agency Zenith rebranded itself globally as The ROI Agency (and a decade since a brief local repositioning as “the open agency”.)

New CEO Jason Tonelli has evolved the local position again - Zenith’s proposition is now “ROI Cubed”: the three I’s being investment, imagination, insight.

In today’s interview with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, Tonelli discusses what Zenith intends to deliver for clients, working within the larger Publicis group where he’s spent the last decade of his career, and the wider planning and investment process.

Zenith’s core proposition is simply about doing media exceptionally well, Tonelli says. Zenith’s clients include Reckitt, Kellogg’s, TikTok, Aldi, H&M, Rio Tinto and Disney.

The agency is also investing in consumer research. Tonelli shares during the conversation that polling suggests that the public is leaning towards a “no” vote in The Voice referendum.

Unmade can also reveal that Tonelli is the new chair of the Audited Media Association of Australia. The AMAA was kneecapped by Australia’s print publishers in late 2016 when Bauer, News Corp and Pacific Magazines all resigned from the magazine audits in what proved to be the death knell of print circulation transparency.

Tonelli discusses how he hopes to return the AMAA to relevance through auditing in the digital space.

“It would be great to get auditing back on the agenda; it’s an important part of our industry,” Tonelli says.

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back soon.

letters@unmade.media

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Today:

Scandal-hit PwC’s tech clients get nervous;
A crucial week for Australia’s defamation laws;
TV network rivals circle to snatch gambling ad dollars;
Former Nine boss weighs in on content quotas;
Has the podcasting bubble burst?
David Koch to leave Sunrise

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Why PwC’s US tech targets will be deeply anxious
The Guardian: Ben Roberts-Smith war crimes defamation verdict to be delivered on Thursday 1 June
Australian Financial Review: Content quotas would spur next $700m MasterChef IP boom: ex-Nine CEO
Australian Financial Review: TV networks’ rivals circle $180m gambling advertising cash cow
Sydney Morning Herald: Is the podcast bubble starting to burst?

Unmade - 2023: The year podcasting becomes a $100m medium? https://www.unmade.media/p/botw-the-podcast-boom-if-agencies

Time to leave you to start your week

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features the story of the first ten years of The Guardian Australia .

Tim Burrowes talks to editor Lenore Taylor and managing director Dan Stinton about how The Guardian found its place within the Australian media establishment after arriving in May 2013.

Using a loan from philanthropist Graeme Wood, the publication assembled a team of some of the country’s best journalists, many of whom were refugees from Fairfax Media following the mass redundancies of 2012.

Taylor says that the tenth anniversary has inspired a deluge of gratitude from readers in her inbox with many arguing that The Guardian has indeed fulfilled a “much needed” niche in Australia’s media landscape.

Stinton, who will shortly move to the Perth-based tech platform Health Engine after five years running the business side of the operation, explains the Guardian’s funding model. The company’s ‘diversified’ revenue - which has almost tripled in the last three years - is generated through a combination of reader support (which has been a ‘rocketship’ for the publication) and other philanthropic funding, digital advertising, and licensing revenue, via the News Media Bargaining Code.

Taylor recalls former Fairfax Media boss Greg Hywood’s dismissal of the launch, asserting that there would only ever be two Australian news brands that would matter - Fairfax and News Corp.

The interview also covers some of the highlights of The Guardian’s reporting, including its ‘Life on the Breadline’ series which focused on Australians living in poverty, and the Snowden spying revelations. Taylor also points to the discovery of new writing talent including columnists like Van Badham and Greg Jericho.

She also addresses the topic of transexual politics, which has divided the newsroom of The Guardian’s head office in the UK.

According to Ipsos, The Guardian is currently Australia’s sixth biggest digital news brand.

The podcast was recorded in The Guardian’s Sydney studio and edited by Abe’s Audio.

The interview was recorded before yesterday’s apology from The Guardian after staff in the UK office used the phrase “gone walkabout” to describe the launch.

letters@unmade.media

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Today:

Coalition proposes $46m TV tax cuts;
Survey reveals public support for government gambling ads ban;
Children’s commercial programming takes a nosedive;
A new Twitter clone from Meta;
Media startup Scire announces new hires;
Walkleys Foundation slammed for scrapping headline award;
Stan steps down from Q&A - will his replacement save the ratings?;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Coalition pitches $46m tax cut to TV networks after gambling ad attack
The Australian Financial Review: Strong support for Dutton’s sport betting ad ban
The Australian: Commercial TV networks’ spending on children’s content plummets
Australian Financial Review: Chris Janz’s (attempted) journalist poach-a-thon bears its first fruit
TechCrunch: Everything we know about Instagram’s Twitter clone, due this summer
The Australian: Walkleys slammed for scrapping award for ‘best headline’
Crikey: How I hacked the Walkleys: confessions of a journalism award nominee
The Australian: RN’s Patricia Karvelas set to front Q+A after Stan Grant’s shock exit

Time to leave you to start your week.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Did PWC tax workarounds help Google offshore its profits?
Crackdown on gambling ads looms;
Snapchat announces new local leadership of Tony Keusgen and Ellie Rogers;
The ‘madness’ of ABC Radio National;
Nine and News Corp rally against AI;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: PwC tax leaks: Apple, Google and Microsoft believed to be named in firm emails
The Guardian: Albanese expresses personal dislike for gambling ads during sporting events as pressure builds for ban
Australian Financial Review: Rowland hints junk food may follow gambling in Labor’s ad sights
Sunday Telegraph: Campbell: Dutton takes a punt on gambling advertising
Australian Financial Review: Adolescent Sportsbet puts an adult in charge
Sydney Morning Herald: Radio was the ABC’s crown jewel, but new data shows how it has fallen
Media Week: Snap Inc. appoints Tony Keusgen as managing director ANZ, replacing Kathryn Carter
The Age: AI data the next flashpoint between media and technology

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Qantas goes to war with the AFR;
Jules Lund comes back to radio;
ABC looks for new management talent;
Scam ads infiltrating the influencer world;
TV networks oppose content requirements for streamers;
Was VOZ worth the wait?;

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: TV networks oppose content requirements for streaming services
The Australian: Prodigal son Jules Lund signs with new network Disrupt Radio
The Australian: Minister hunts ‘digital’ experience for ABC board
The Australian: ABC scouts management talent for youth brand Triple J
Australian Financial Review: Four out of five influencer posts fail to disclose advertising ties
Sydney Morning Herald: TV networks oppose content requirements for streaming services

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Grant Blackley to leave SCA
OzTam (re)launches new TV ratings system, VOZ;
Chris Brown to take on The Block at Seven?;
Vice woes mean local programming changes;
Facebook’s billions in local advertising revenue;
Twitter plans to allow publishers to help publishers charge;
ACCC focuses on shady influencers;
Coles Radio contract up for grabs

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

SCA on ASX: SCA appoints John Kelly as managing director and CEO
The Australian: New TV ratings system VOZ will show total audience
The Australian: Dr Chris Brown’s first project on Seven?
Sydney Morning Herald: SBS loses flagship Vice news show as US media darlings falter
Australian Financial Review: Facebook advertising revenues balloon even as local profits fall
The Guardian: Twitter to let publishers charge users per article read, says Elon Musk
Australian Financial Review: Take five posts at random
ACCC: Digital platform services inquiry - March 2023 interim report
Australian Financial Review: Coles Radio shake-up could give grocery giant $1b ad market boost

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

TV industry finally gets its 3D view - but will it be enough for Foxtel?;
Pedestrian launches a TV channel;
How streaming quotas will work;
Will Eddie McGuire take a bigger 3AW gig?;
Google’s smart speaker switchoff

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Television ratings overhaul took too long, OzTAM boss concedes
Australian Financial Review: Pedestrian.TV, again
Sydney Morning Herald: How Netflix, Amazon may be forced to make more Australian programs
The Australian: Eddie McGuire to fix 3AW’s Dan ban?
The Australian: Commercial Radio and Audio boss says Google was ‘asleep at the wheel’ over radio outage

Time to leave you to start your week

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features an interview with Kirsty Muddle, boss of Dentsu Creative, the biggest holding company yet to move to a single brand model.

Tim Burrowes writes:

The biggest implication of Dentsu’s creative rebrand deserved more attention than it got when it occurred last June.

The company was the first holding company of any significant size to move to a single global creative brand. Globally, that meant folding in DentsuMcGarryBowen, Isobar, 360i and its Dentsu-branded creative agencies. In Australia, this also included BWMdentsu, Isobar and PR agencies Haystac, and Cox Inall.

From the point of view of legacy, the disappearance of BWM, the people who brought us Rabbits (or Father & Son as it was officially known) was perhaps the most significant.

The bigger question: Is this the future of agencies? Not just a single creative brand, but with PR folded in too.

During our interview, Muddle argues that the key justification is for their benefit of clients - simplicity. No more “splinter cells”.

There is more to it than client-friendly simplicity. The major holding companies own more agency brands than they need, or are even viable in a world where marketers spend less with agency partners every year quarter.

If Dentsu’s logic is extended to its rivals, then the end point would see the already merged brands of WhiteGrey, VMLY&R and Wunderman Thomson eventually folded into WPP Creative; DDB, TBWA and BBDO merged into Omnicom Creative; Saatchi & Saatchi, Leo Burnett and co become Publicis Creative, and so on.

That’s easier to achieve for Dentsu, particularly in Australia, when it starts with fewer brands in the first place.

Is it a strategy that agency groups would ever recommend their own clients follow? A lot of valuable heritage agency brands have vanished. Imagine if instead of Dove, OMO and Hellman’s we just had Unilever soap, Unilever washing powder and Unilever mayo. During the interview, Muddle argues that sometimes the answer is yes.

This may well be the end point for agencies, which are in their final years as we know them now. The multi agency group was an accident of their evolution - independents were acquired more for their client lists than they were for their output, so it made sense not to change the name above the door if it would risk that. And it was an answer to the perception that client conflict was insoluble within a one-brand agency group.

During the interview, Muddle makes the point that when auditors or lawyers do it, they call it specialising.

The value for brands of driving one idea through the earned media of PR and the paid media of advertising is also underrated. The few groups that have done it well needed both the right structure and creatives in place to achieve it. We’ll see whether Dentsu Creative can do it.

For Dentsu, if the proof is in the work, we’re still waiting. Muddle joined a year ago; joint chief creative officers Avish Gordhan and Mandie van der Merwe came on board six months ago. Muddle argues in the interview that it takes 18 months for defining work to make its way down the pipeline.

One answer from Muddle - who comes from more of a media than creative background - captures her pragmatic approach. “Do I understand and worship creativity in the same way? The truth is, I don’t worship it in the same way. I really value creativity, I absolutely do, but the way it comes to life now is different to the way it once did.”

Culturally, that’s a good thing. Many of the internal problems the advertising industry suffered came from putting creative teams on some sort of pedestal. A dose of respect rather than worship is what the industry needs.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

A launch date for Warner Bros to stream in to Australia
How Nine killed it in the first quarter
Gambling rules set to blow a hole in Seven’s plans
Claiming the field in AI

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

The Australian: Warner Bros Discovery’s new streaming platform coming to Asia-Pacific
OzTam: 2023 ratings calendar
Mumbrella: Survivor, Idol and MAFS: Who won the first tentpole clash of the year?
Australian Financial Review: $300m in ads on the line as AFL, NRL, wagering bosses face grilling
The Age: The one big loophole in the online gambling debate
The Australian: AI companies crave credibility but it doesn’t come for free
Marketing Week: Mark Ritson - Brands’ biggest AI opportunity is in making customers believe the b**t

Quotes of the day:

My message to all of these people is the same. ChatGPT is a toy. A f*g toy. Put it down. Or, if you want to spend your professional time playing with it, don’t share your games with the rest of us. We have work to do.

Mark Ritson

“It’s a very interesting question for Seven specifically because they have a locked in their price for AFL for quite a long period of time. If the government came in now and said no more gambling, how could they possibly recoup their revenue?

Dr Hunter Fujak, author, Code Wars

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Could Rightful incubate the next big brand?

Today’s edition of The Unmakers features Simon Hakim, CEO of creative agency Hunter and co-founder of food and beverage innovation business Rightful, in conversation with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

Hunter, now in its 13th year, launched with what was at the time an unconventional business model, which has since become more common - a decentralised team.

The team behind Hunter are now working on their next project: taking on neglected brands, particularly from the consumer packaged goods space, and reinventing them. Rightful aims to work with with larger companies, and share in the spoils when those brands are brought back to commercial success

During the conversation Hakim explains the Rightful business model, and the type of investors he and co-founder Matt Gibbins are looking for to get the startup off the ground.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

We’ll be back tomorrow with another update

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Public opposition to betting ads on the rise
Details emerge on Chris Janz’s Scire project
Was Foxtel overcounting TV audience?

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

The Guardian: Majority of Australians support banning gambling advertising on TV, study finds
Unmade: Time up for betting ads
The Australian: Ex-Nine execs Chris Janz and David Eisman aim to fill news ‘void’ with business website
Sydney Morning Herald: Foxtel’s television ratings data could be inflated by 40 per cent

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, sound design and podcast production.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s edition features one of the big beasts of Australian media - a rare, full length interview with News Corp Australasia’s executive chairman Michael Miller.

It’s not quite fair to describe Michael Miller as a News Corp lifer. He joined the organisation as a junior marketer in April 1992, but briefly left during the tumultuous reign of Kim Williams. During that short period, he ran APN News & Media (these days known as HT&E) as its shifted its centre of gravity from newspapers to radio. Miller was the man signing the cheques when the company’s Australian Radio Network boldly poached Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson from Southern Cross Austereo, and remade the radio landscape.

Miller came back to News Corp as executive chairman at the end of 2015. By that point, the worst of the newspaper industry’s existential crisis was over, but the business model was far from certain.

Since then the company - which publishes The Australian, the Herald Sun, The Courier Mail and The Telegraph news mastheads among many others - has proved the sceptics wrong by succeeding with paid subscriptions. Even as the company cuts 5% of its global workforce to navigate an uncertain economy, news publishing seems in a safer place. In today’s conversation, Miller points out that last time Unmade’s Tim Burrowes interviewed him on stage, back in 2018, the company had 420,000 subscribers. It’s since passed 1m.

The business model for news publishing was also boosted by the politically-driven News Media Bargaining Code, which forced Google and Facebook to strike deals with local publishers. Miller offers a warning for the consequences for the industry (and Facebook) if, as seems likely, Facebook’s parent company Meta walks away from renewing its deals next year.

And Miller points to the next battleground for payment - AI. In the same way that Google and Facebook were asked to pay to deliver content originated from news publishing, Miller says the same argument about ChatGPT is “inevitable” and imminent.

The interview also tackles the polarising nature of News Corp’s content, how it addresses advertisers boycotts led by the likes of Sleeping Giants and Mad F*g Witches (“Don’t give in to bullies”), and the evolution of its columnists.

Miller also puts forward an argument for optimism in the most challenged journalism space: local news.

Transcript of Michael Miller interview with Tim Burrowes:

Tim Burrowes:

My guest has arguably the biggest job in Australian media. Michael Miller is Executive Chairman of News Corp Australia, a role he's held since 2015. He's been with News Corp for most of his career, since joining the company's marketing team 30 years ago, next month. You'll know News Cook from its portfolio of metro news mastheads, including the Telegraph, the Courier Mail, and the Herald Sun for its national title, The Australian, for news website news.com.au, and for its TV news operation, Sky News Australia. The company also has majority stakes in Foxtel Group and in property platform REA Group. Michael Miller has had a front row as News Corp evolved from a newspaper company into something much more complicated.

On Monday News Corp held its D_Coded event for digital marketers, which is one reason for the timing of this conversation. Now, Michael, the last time I interviewed you on the record was on stage at Mumbrella360, five years ago believe it or not. Now the title of the keynote you gave that day was Persuading Audiences and Customers to Pay and Stay. Even then, I'm not sure that the whole publishing world was convinced that subscribers could be the main means of funding newspapers. When Rupert Murdoch started the company on that path more than a decade ago now, many, many people predicted that it would not work. Yet here you are. Is it still about getting people to pay and stay?

Michael Miller:

It is, and many in the industry now have moved to a subscription, an audience funded model, and that whether it be a streamer, whether it be your local out of industry, you've got supermarkets. But particularly for us, I think back of five years ago in July of, I think it was 2018, we last spoke, Tim, we had about 420,000 subscribers. And on October last year we announced we'd just passed a million. And that when I reflect on five years ago, it was a question of, do we actually have a sustainable model for journalism? And today I can say far more confidently that we do, and that's a good thing for not just for media companies, but also for those who rely so much on them.

Tim Burrowes:

And I suppose one of the things we have seen the pendulum swinging even more so than during that conversation, was that move towards subscriber pays as opposed to advertiser pays. Has that pendulum reached as far as it will, do you think? Because I guess you almost have two constituencies really, don't you, the advertisers and the subscribers/readers?

Michael Miller:

Yeah, I've always described us traditionally as a business of a dual-sided marketplace where we are connecting those audiences with our journalism, with clients who want to engage in entrusted contextual environments. The pendulum is to continue to swing from being client dominated, to being far more consumer balanced. And a good business is diversified revenues, but also diversified audiences too. So I don't think that pendulum has stopped yet. It has had a good three, four years. It's still growing, but the fatigue that I think particularly news and information has seen over the past few years has definitely some to settle in and that it's now I think a challenge for all media companies to look at bundling partnerships and a more compelling value offer, which goes beyond just traditional news.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, before we speak more widely, I'd like to maybe talk about a couple of the announcements from this week, from D_Coded. I'll invite you to put your marketer hat back on and explain the total commerce proposition if you could please.

Michael Miller:

Yeah, total commerce has been something which we've been working towards now for a number of years and that we're in McKinsey estimate, this will be a $500 billion market globally, in the coming years ahead. And so from a News Corp perspective, total commerce refers to a suite of client solutions that integrates our content and commercial content with the ability to purchase at the lower end of the purchase funnel. And that it does connect using our data that we share with both Foxtel and REA, to connect clients more accurately through contextual content in an actual purchase of our sites. And that's something which we've been working on for a number of years.

Tim Burrowes:

And this I suppose is the really interesting thing that we are talking increasingly about, offsite strategies. Is that a signal of where media is going, or where News Corp is going?

Michael Miller:

I think it's something which we all media are going to. You think of the origins, we have mastheads in our portfolio called the Advertiser. And that commercial messages in trusted news environments is nothing new, that's been well established now for centuries. And this is an evolution of that and it's the latest of that, whereby our clients are asking us to get closer to their customers who are our consumers, and that we know we don't want to interrupt that environment that they're consuming their news in.

And it's part of the reason we invested in companies like Medium Rare and the work they do with Australian Institute of Company Directors. It's Qantas, David Jones amongst many. It's the reason why we invested in Visual Domain, because a lot more of this content now is video and audio, and not just in print and pictorially. Well, it's why last year with D_Coded we announced shoppable video and vertical video and that the years we've been building up to this moment, whereby I think the market is now ready and accepting that it's total commerce that we can provide a solution from top end of funnel to the purchase at the bottom end.

Tim Burrowes:

And is this a conversation to mainly have with brands and marketers directly or via their agencies?

Michael Miller:

My observation is that sitting in many different parts of organizations and there's not a consistent location who owns this, because in some cases, a brand is still important in terms of that purchase decision and that sits in one part of a business. But then digital commerce sitting in another, social sometimes hits and that's your off platform audience, as we find in our business, is particularly important in terms of pushing people down into that purchase funnel. And I feel like there's some companies that don't have that end, that their cradle to grave processes are in place and they're still working through that, and to be fair, so have we. But I think that's what we now have got clarity on in terms of providing not just retailers, but insurance companies, in terms of FMCG goods directly, fashion, fast fashion, these are all areas and the Black Friday, Cyber Monday for us continues to double the past three years as a indicator of a consumer's propensity and willingness to pay.

Tim Burrowes:

One of the interesting things I took from the Total Commerce part of the announcement this week, and I accept this wasn't the central part at all, but you as an organization, you did talk a little bit about using AI as part of this process. Which I think is an interesting moment, because obviously since ChatGPT broke through and OpenAI broke through, it's the topic of the time. How are you thinking about AI's place within News Corp going forward?

Michael Miller:

We've been using AI for a number of years. It's not new to the category and not new to us as a company, in being able to be a newsroom assistant, in being able to quickly analyze audiences that are on our various sites. And so, Vidora is the brand we use. We use a reporting tool called Verity, which is world leading and publishers around the world are looking at what we've done in terms of understanding who is paying and who is staying and what they're reading prior, what they're reading post, demographically, geographically.

It gives us a great insight in how we've changed our company in terms of allocation of reporters and staff, but also the rounds that we choose and where we see growth opportunities. We use AI in News Connect, which is in our seven year long data product which we've worked with other leading data brands, the banks, the cards, the retailers, to be able to provide over well, nearly 3000 different segments for different clients that are custom-made for them. And AI is a big part of our News Connect product. ChatGPT is another layer and it's exciting. I think it's here to stay. I don't think it's a fad, but it's early days as well, we need to understand how best to use it and how not to use it.

Tim Burrowes:

And do you see that conversation around using generative AI to create editorial content? Is that a Rubicon that must not be crossed or is there a place for it for the low value commoditized content? How are you thinking about that part? Because that must be the most sensitive part of the conversation about AI.

Michael Miller:

There's probably three layers that are top of mind for me at the moment. And as I say, this is still evolving, but attribution is important in journalism, that you're quoting the source, the person. But equally now, I think it's important for trusted media to declare if ChatGPT and generative AI is your source. So that's how I think about that in terms of first layer of journalism. I see it as being a newsroom assistant rather than being a journalist replacement, and based on historical information and comments and a variety of sources, and that it doesn't though, give you context to the current and any predictive despite its term, around what others may behave differently tomorrow.

And so, that's the role of a journalist is to be inquisitive, is to be forward-thinking and is to be thinking around guidance too, how we should be thinking about events or issues socially in the future. And that I haven't seen yet, ChatGPT be able to meet that need. The third layer is how ChatGPT has been built and it's drawn in many different sources, primarily though trusted media brands and that again, we're in that situation where there's a business being built here, which is a user utilizing the content of others, not just trusted media brands, but without attribution and without payment. And I think that is a concern for the original creators who are not benefiting, but they're seeing their journalism or their hard work, they're cataloging benefited by others.

Tim Burrowes:

I first remember probably in something like 2008, 2009, Rupert Murdoch, your proprietor, talking fairly fiercely about the role that Google was playing in using news content to drive its search results and suggesting that it would be fair to receive a payment. And I, like many people at the time, thought that seemed a bit unrealistic, and yet it came to be. Have you yet got an evolved position on whether we've got the same principle at stake when it comes to generative AI? Is there a point when you would want the likes of Microsoft or other people who partner in OpenAI to be coming to the same sort of conversation that the News Media Bargaining Code conversation drove?

Michael Miller:

I think that those conversations are inevitable, if not going to be accelerated and that's not in dispute about where the content and advice is coming from and they're already asking for payment models from consumers and that's not right.

Tim Burrowes:

Now, in Scott Morrison as Treasurer and then Prime Minister, you had somebody who was very sympathetic to that argument. Do you yet have a sense of what the view of the current government is? I know it is very new and happening fast, so I don't know if you've got to that conversation yet.

Michael Miller:

The news bargaining code that was introduced 18 months ago, received bipartisan support and that I'd take that as being that they are supportive conceptually and of the principles behind the code. So it's not a conversation which we've had to have as we've had it probably two years plus prior, in that they've indicated their support. As now other countries around the world are following Australia's lead in looking at how they regulate in their own markets.

Tim Burrowes:

And do you think that will now extend to the conversation around AI as well, naturally, or is that a conversation that will need to be forced to make it happen?

Michael Miller:

I take partnership as approach. I would be wanting to have conversations with our potential users of our journalism as a first port. Going in with lawyers at a first meeting is never a great way to start any relationship. And so, I would prefer to be meeting with those and discussing what does a fair partnership look like. And I think that at the same time, a lot of the ChatGPT content that's generated isn't attributed either, and that would be a benefit I think to those organizations to hear that and see that as being part of the offer they make.

Tim Burrowes:

While we're talking about frenemies, you are getting into vertical video. That was another one of the announcements this week, which I guess gets one thinking about TikTok. Are they... It's unfair to call them the new kids now, but are they where the attention is beginning to swing towards now, as opposed to Facebook as the previous social media foe?

Michael Miller:

Their definitely video consumption is on the rise, that there is now, it's Reels for Facebook, it's Google Web Stories on that platform, and it's TikToks for TikTok. And so yes, as our content or journalism may be used on that platform, that's a conversation that as new platforms come to bear, I think the code need to consider those and that if we go back 10 years ago, back to the origins of even prior to Facebook in the 15 years ago, they've evolved greatly and that I think that the code needs to continue to evolve to counter for new entrants to the market, but also how their business models have changed in line with how consumers are changing. And the acceleration of video has been dramatic over the past few years and that's where TikTok has benefited to Facebook's expense. But as they are increasingly using the content of others, then that's a fair conversation to have.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, a couple of points of the last few years that I'd love to just get your perspective on, now that they're in the beginnings of the rear view mirror. Now the first one we have talked about already, which is the News Media Bargaining Code negotiations. How would the economics of news look now, if that process hadn't happened and Facebook and Google hadn't been nudged into making those deals in 2021 to pay the publishers, how would the landscape be now?

Michael Miller:

Oh, there'd be pressure on all media, not just news media who have not just got commercial agreements, but partnerships now in place. Arguably there's been an investment made, as I say, that could be both in kind or in cash, depending on the different arrangements that are there, which has enabled some of those companies that are now seeing some headwinds to create. For me, I feel how they reinvested in the arrangement they've come to, to accelerate the growth of their digital business. And that's probably the approach I've thought of at News Corp, is that this isn't about a bottom line return to shareholder moment, it's about an opportunity to reinvest in a digital future. And that is now when I think of the core, it's a digital core and that's been the opportunity of those arrangements, have now created. And so, how would it look? I think it would look a lot barer. I think I'd be concerned that we would have less players and that is not good for the consumer ultimately, but for Australian media more broadly.

Tim Burrowes:

There is some speculation that when Facebook's agreements start coming up for renewal next year, they seem to have far less appetite to renew perhaps than the Google News initiative does or Google and Alphabet more generally. How do the economics change for you if Facebook and their parent company, Meta, don't come back to the table next year?

Michael Miller:

Should that be a decision they make, it would impact the ability to reinvest and that's how I consider it. I can't talk for others, but that would be disappointment. I don't think it'd be good for their business either, to be frank. I think that we refer, for News Corp to combined Google and Facebook, we sent 2.9 billion referrals last year and that is value to them and a large proportion of their total referrals come from news media companies and that I see it particularly as they think through video and how they respond, and we produce 80 reels a week for them, which is the largest exercise of a type in the world. There is definitely value which those trusted brands give to their platforms. So I don't think it's good business for either, but it wouldn't be good business if they were to walk away and whether they're, I'm not sure how they detangle their relationship with their audience without the use of news. I don't know technically how they achieved that either.

Tim Burrowes:

Now I suppose another key moment over the last five years or so, we look back at 2020, when all publishers, including News Corp had to make some big decisions as the pandemic kicked in. You pretty much got out of the print business for local newspapers. That's nearly three years ago now, it's just flying by. When you look back on that period now, was this just an acceleration of something that was inevitable or was there anything that could have changed that story and changed that trajectory do you think?

Michael Miller:

I think it was an acceleration of the inevitable, that we had seen for the decade prior that local newspapers had predominantly, or had been funded wholly by client dollars, they were your car yard, they were your shopping malls, they were your local job markets. They were the swap meets, they were the tenders. Council stopped advertising, council notices they disappeared. A lot of the key major advertisers in communities that relied on local foot traffic moved to social platforms. They moved to the portals of CarsGuide, realestate.com.au, and that there wasn't a model to fund those.

The uncertainty of the pandemic meant that most of those businesses were unable to trade and that we didn't know how long that would last for. And so, we made the conclusion that those dollars that had already started to drain and they're accelerated at the start of the pandemic, were not going to come back. And that to transition them to still be digital models, not printed as well, was something which we had seen occur in other markets around the world. And it pains me because I'm a print lover and someone who's grown up on it, but it equally got accepted that our audiences had moved digitally, our clients had moved digitally, and that you weren't able to hold onto the old, you had to plan for the new.

Tim Burrowes:

I'm also a print lover, grew up in local newspapers, started delivering the local paper when I was 13 years old. So I'm very much from the campus of supportive of local news. I struggle to see models emerge that really help fund the local journalism that used to happen everywhere of a reporter in every courtroom, a reporter in every council meeting, a reporter arriving at the cop shop every day to see what was going on. I'd love to hear some reasons for optimism about that sort of journalism being funded at that granular, local level in the future. Are you seeing signs at all?

Michael Miller:

No, and that is the big revelation and that I think we were one the first companies in the world to see the value of hyper-local news. In the past three years we have launched 24 new mastheads in areas where we previously did not have a print publication. What people subscribe for, what's that moment where they say, "I'm going to start paying for...", is a local reason. It is court reports, it is tender applications, it's developments that are happening around the corner. It is local crime, it's the local football footy team. So as I said, we've invested in 24 new publications in high consumption areas.

We've also started a local sports streaming service. This year we will broadcast 2,300 local, national, and state sports games which become part of your masthead. And the benefit for those organizations is that we continue to report upon those as part of your local masthead, and that's what people initially pay for. What they stay for is quite different. What they stay for is network news. It's news about the latest diet, it's the post-COVID travel trends. It's the advice around superannuation. So the combination of hyper-local and network is, what is the beauty that we're seeing and we're not the only one seeing that around the world, but I think we were the first to see the benefit of the void that had been left for hyper-local news that people need, and they have particularly needed that the past three years.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, you mentioned a little bit earlier your view on partnerships, which it does strike me that News Corp is a less insular company than it was once seen. Few examples came to mind for me, last August you signed a deal withv Ooh Media to deliver news across their screen network, Seven West Media's Perth newspapers tap into News Corp resources, HT&E, which you ran for a while when it was APN News & Media. That's partly owned by News Corp, about 13% or something. How do you think about how, as one of the I suppose two big beasts, about how the company should act within that commercial media ecosystem?

Michael Miller:

I sometimes feel that some days I'm going to sit opposite a company and compete. Some days I'm going to sit next to them and compliment. We print and we distribute the Nine and the ACM publications. Increasingly our audience is off platform, 72% of our audience does not come directly to our mastheads. So the majority of it is coming to us from seeing a Ooh Media screen. It's seeing us on Insta, Facebook, on a search result and that increasingly we need to look at those off platform top of funnel, and that's part of the reason why we see audience growth coming from.

Because with those more greater eyeballs becomes greater familiarity of the brands and the content than journalism that we produce and they're more likely to become a news.com.au audience, which become part of our total commerce solution, or they hopefully become a subscriber over the longer term. And so, that's where partnerships become and every partnership is different. I wish there was just a simple cookie cutter model approach, but people have different ambitions and drivers to their own business and that you mentioned Seven West, I've mentioned a lot of media companies already in this conversation who we do work with, and that probably our growth will come from taking shares to those who are not based in this country rather than those traditional competitors that we all grew up with.

Tim Burrowes:

Now in your stint at APN, you got some exposure to the outdoor advertising sector. Let's talk the potential for mergers and acquisitions. Would it make sense for News Corp to own a QMS or an Ooh Media or somebody like that do you think?

Michael Miller:

It would be inconsistent with our, I suppose past mandate. We're a content company. My experience from out-of-home in Australia is that Australia is one of the leaders in the world in terms of out-of-home technology and those companies are predominantly landlord and they're leasing from landlords and selling their leased assets to clients. They're not curating content and that's why we see companies like media partnering with us for content. Now I don't see us as the potential out-of-home player, because it's not our core skillset set. Don't never say never, but I'd say that our skills are in content creation, curation and amplification, and that I'd much prefer to stay in those areas that we'd lead in and not necessarily venture into those that others do better at.

Tim Burrowes:

What do you expect to see happening in M&A and in the wider market this year or going forward? Are you expecting to see much occur?

Michael Miller:

I would expect that most companies will focus on their core. For us, that's a digital core. And I worry less about revenue lines, more about cost lines, and managing your cost base. I think we're still seeing, where does the post-COVID bounce settle on its recline and that there may be opportunities that emerge, particularly with some of the tech businesses that are looking now more stretched as the valuations and models are showing signs of strain and that we're not convinced yet that some of them are as sustainable as what they were looking 12 months ago. So our priority is definitely on that. We're seeing good growth in our core digital business and that we need to ensure that the great work that our print teams are doing maximized in terms of that digital transition.

Tim Burrowes:

I'm glad you mentioned that wider outlook now, it is matter of public record that News Corp is currently cutting 5% of jobs globally. Now you were running News Corp's New South Wales operation back in 2012 when the local newspaper industry had what felt at the time it's near death moment. How does this year feel compared to that?

Michael Miller:

I feel that this year is far more certain than 2012, a decade ago. I think the industry was uncertain about the paths that, and not just those in news media, but more broadly we had the multi-channels, we saw the start of Netflix globally, and we now have that it's disrupted linear TV viewing. We're starting to see the next wave of programmatic and couponing and digital advertising. That's when I'd say Google and Facebook, or now Meta, we're really starting to take solidified a position as a ad business. I was reminded earlier that there was the double-click purchase by Google, the impact that had on the ad tech market. And so, you were starting to see the digitalization back in 2012 of out-of-home and that we were all very uncertain about where the client dollars would go and where we would have a consumer base that were prepared to pay.

And that I'm going to get the year wrong, but it's around that time that the iPad launched and there was a sudden moment of, this is how people are going to consume print. It's all going to be digital, but it's going to look like... It takes time for consumers to change their habits and we see them early adopt in Australia, second fastest in the world after Norway here. But do we stay with that habit? Not always, but sometimes we do. So you got to be a fast follower, or sometimes, other times you got to lead. But yeah, this feels very different to 2012. I think we as an industry should be more confident about what our business models are.

Tim Burrowes:

I suppose at the same time, any media organization is expecting a tough few months. I wonder, how do you balance communicating honestly with your staff about the challenges ahead and the jobs that might need to go as a result of that, versus finding a way of offering a vision for an optimistic future for journalism?

Michael Miller:

We often hear the announcements in the people who are unfortunately leaving companies. We advertised on digital and in print on Monday for last week, of new cadets to join the company. We have skills in audio that we didn't have 10 years ago, skills in video, skills in data, and that there are new people who are bringing a great talent to our journalistic, it says proposition and offering to consumers, and that you got to balance that out and times and that a lot of our plans are already in place around the recent announcement. You've got to be honest with your teams and say that sadly there will be some people who will leave and some people who will be redeployed, and some people who may choose to leave additionally. And we've seen that happen as well. But I think the past few years has maybe masked what was going on below the surface and we're now having to deal with that in larger numbers, not just at News Corp, but at all media companies, not just in Australia.

Tim Burrowes:

Now I keep referring back to the conversation we had on stage at Mumbrella360, the getting audiences and customers to pay and stay presentation. Now during that News Corp's content can polarize and that has long been the criticism of News Corp, that your editors pursue agendas. We've seen the rise and I think maybe the fading of campaign groups like Stop Funding Hate or Sleeping Giants. Their method I suppose, is to try to persuade advertisers to stay off certain platforms. That's been a big challenge I think for Sky News Australia. Now you must have developed a playbook for advertisers by now. What is the approach when these moments arise?

Michael Miller:

I wish there was a playbook, Tim, and that we could just roll out the... Every issue has different layers, different perspectives, and you're dealing often with different people. In terms of, first of all, the activists and the sleeping giants, the mad Witches. And others, yes, we went through a period of time when they worried, a number of clients out there, not just about News Corp content, although we were primary, and Sky News. They were activists who were trying to impact change to their own agendas. The good clients, the good companies were the ones that wanted to have a conversation and to understand the concerns both of the activist groups, but also get to the facts around what they were hearing. And again, in many cases there was misinformation which ultimately undermined the position of those activist groups to achieve their outcome.

And that misinformation has been their downfall, and that we've worked through that in having honest conversations. There were a small number of clients that jumped, that they responded due to the fear of what they could be trending online. And I've seen that happen from time to time. But on mass, I'd say the majority of our clients who are targeted are still with us and that a key message that I would say is, don't give into bullies. In terms of then, other critic groups are former prime ministers and political polarization.

I think they've got their own views and not always defend their views to their ability to have a view. That's what free speech is about. I don't need to agree with them. But ultimately, as we saw through a parliamentary inquiry that the impact of that, their concerns were not found to be of the magnitudes of which they were expressing and didn't receive the support ultimately that they had wanted. I think it comes back to if we need to make changes, if we need to evolve as an organization based on the feedback we're receiving, we got to take that on board. But additionally, we're not the type of organization that are going to respond to those intimidations and the agendas of others and that we've seen that come from, let's say minority groups. But that hasn't been a concern that I currently and luckily dealing with, but no doubt it's just around the corner.

Tim Burrowes:

Do you think you have evolved as an organization though, when it comes to the polarizing type of content?

Michael Miller:

I think we're always evolving. I think that the market has moved a lot as well. We've been through a phase over the past five years that opinion-based journalism is really on the back of social media, where we could all express an opinion and we were driven to hear others' opinion, but then we got swamped by, what is opinion, what is fact. And that has being part of the news fatigue and the opinion fatigue, which we've been drowned out by. And if anything a part of that evolution is a return to trusted, fact-based reporting and presentation and that it's clearly sourced, clearly attributed and presented as, this is fact and this is opinion. And the separation of the two I think is now a benefit of those media companies that follow that approach. And so, you're always evolving. In terms of some of the areas that we've been criticized on.

We constantly reflect on the views of, not so much the views that may differ to particular columnists and I. We have a broad church of columnists and people within the organization and that it's important that we are always encouraging new voices to be... And not just our own, but opinion writers to be expressing views which are maybe contrary. And then I look at the voice today and we've got a Chris Kenny who is an avid advocate for it. We've got someone like a Paul Kelly who looks at this from a constitutional lens. We've got others who, indigenous writers who are writing it in, I suppose indigenous Australians who are writing this as a pro and it doesn't go far enough anti. And so, when I think through the history of time and the role of news media, it is to further the debate to help Australians understand the issue and our policy makers have a platform to express their views so that we can arrive at the right decision. So I'm giving you, every issue is different.

Tim Burrowes:

Now, Rupert Murdoch recently marked 70 years at the helm of the company, which just sounds remarkable when you say it out loud. Now he is in that leadership role alongside Locklan. You've seen that joint leadership evolve. I think you would've come back to the organization just after Locklan came back. How do you sum up that sort of joint leadership role now, from where you see it?

Michael Miller:

I suppose that's at a board level. I personally report through to Robert Thompson, who's the global CEO. The board look at many different broadcasting, business information, news media, real estate interests. Rupert and I deal far more with Lachlan now, as the co-chairs. And that obviously they would discuss many of those issues together as they would with other board members as well. I understand it's not always your traditional model of having co-chairs, but it's not unusual either and that it's a balance that appears to work. I don't know, I'm not on those board meetings to give a context of the dynamics at the time.

Tim Burrowes:

What else in media is intriguing you at the moment? I know you are interested in niche business models. I wonder what developing models you've been keeping an eye on, either here in Australia or overseas, which are capturing your attention at the moment.

Michael Miller:

Yeah, definitely deep niches. I came across a business, a publisher they call themselves who's specialized in watches. They claimed $100 million of revenue and that as there are wine collectors and car collectors, there's also watch collectors. I'm not one, but they want to know who the makers are, the history behind them, how to ensure them, and the swapping of them. There's expos and conferences, there's commerce, the total commerce solution to it as well. You look at the wine industry, you look at now just aspects of pets. There's passion points, there's music that I've learned a lot about when I was with now HT&E, in terms of people's passion points. Food is another one. It's not just travel generically, it's aspects of travel. It is arts travel, it is, I suppose adventure travel just on bikes.

And so, the great thing is that you can now develop deep niches that can attract an audience. What I'm partly interested in that is that, how does a bundle with your core business? And so, in recent years we've invested in stock head, being for those stocks that don't get a lot of coverage. Kids SPOT has been part of the portfolio and is having another resurgence in terms of a source and destination for B2B and young parents to congregate and have a community around their kids. I look at the race net and punters to investments we've made and the passionate community of people who love the track. CODE Sports now has been another revelation in terms of its long form storytelling around our passion for sport. It's not all sports. We don't claim to be a competitor to a Wide World or a Herald Sun, but it is the stories of sport and there's a group there who make the time and have that passion.

And so, how then do you include that as part of your broader subscription to a news corporate masthead? And that adds value. There's a proposition there. I see that many of the UK publications for five quid, you get to have puzzles and crossword for the year and it's a retention pace and it's a smart business model. And so, that's where I'm interested in what we've called in telco land triple or quad players of the past.

I can see that reemerging as being part of your value proposition. And in reality, we've always covered stocks and puzzles and done long form storytelling, but it's in specialist environments where you can buy them separately, you can buy a part of, and that's what excites me as, we're getting into the storytelling of new genres, in new ways, using audio, using video, using UCG. Taste is the biggest cooking club in the country by a long way, and that's a passion point. And they're the ears that I'm always looking for that is inspiration and thinking, how big can you get it here? And sadly, the reality is, we're a country of 25 million people. I wish we had another zero at the end of that, which then you'd get some scale.

Tim Burrowes:

Now a slightly unfair question, asking to pick one, but if you could point to one act of journalism from News Corp in recent months that sums up the company's direction of travel, what would you choose or what would you think of?

Michael Miller:

Oh, our news award winner last year was Hedley Thomas. He is a journalist who has evolved into a podcaster, his recent podcast, Shandee's Story, and not only reopened the case of 23 year old Shandee Blackburn in Queensland, around the systemic failures of the Queensland government's DNA laboratory that he has given hope to over 200 families who do have unanswered questions. This is far bigger story than the Teacher's Pet. According to Hedley, the Teacher's Pet downloaded 85 million times. And so, why has he been successful, I think is probably more, it's enduring, it is fearless, it is about fairness, it's about transparency, and it's about that accountability of those in who didn't ask the questions around Lynette Dawson. Now he did, he did the job that the law enforcement and politicians didn't do. And so, that is what good journalism is about and it's about making a difference. And so, that's probably the one that these people are aware of, that it's indicative of multi-platform storytelling using resources, but the commitment to finding the truth.

Tim Burrowes:

Now, last week we heard the news of the passing of Brian Walsh, who was the steward of Foxtel's TV making. A bit hard to ask you to sum it up, but how would you sum up the contribution that he made?

Michael Miller:

And his contribution was far broader than Foxtel. I remembered getting the news late on the Thursday night. I first came across Brian as a kid marketer in the mid '90s. We were launching the Sunday Magazine, which was a big deal at the time. There were over a million copies that a magazine would go into, the biggest magazine day one in the country.

And he was a mentor to me in the launch of that entertainment based publication. But Brian has managed sporting stars. He was a talent manager. When the movies would come to Australia, he was their publicist on the ground. He would put on the halftime events at NRL Grand Finals. Now his days of promotions manager at 2SM and in radio, then leading to marketing. He was generous in his sharing of experiences, he wasn't a competitive guy. He loved the story. He loved connecting with audiences and he's going to be missed. But his contribution, as I say, is far greater than his colleagues at News and Foxtel. It's his contribution is to many people and probably, but look, he probably made a difference to many who didn't even know his name.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, last question from me, and this is the last question I ask everybody. What would your critics say about you and what would your supporters say about you?

Michael Miller:

They're the critics. We've got a few. Journalism is not there to be popular. It's often standing up for the unpopular, for those without a voice, for those who are unable to represent themselves in the conversation. And while we are standing up for the unpopular, we're not always popular and therefore we do have our critics. And that is what they would say about us, is that we're their version of what the news is, is not necessarily what we publish every day. And yeah, that's a tough job for an editor to decide what has got to be led, but we are there to make a difference, it'd be how I would respond to those critics who would like to see something different. We'd like to see their view of the world played back at them, but we are there to make a difference. And that part of that is being fearless and saying principle.

Tim Burrowes:

And what would your supporters say about you?

Michael Miller:

A measure that I use is, how are we going, how are the Australian people responding? And they're both your critics and your supporters. And that ultimately, I look at, do we have a growing audience? That's got to be your measure. Is that more important than your share price? Is that more important than your net promoter score? I think it ultimately is. How are your customers responding to what you're doing? And in the past two years, we've grown from 16.8 to 18.1 million Australians. So we've got a growing audience. And so, we are doing something right for them and why do they come to us? They come to us because they trust us. And that we're there for free thinking, free markets and free speech, and we're going to protect that and stand up for that. That means standing up for Australians. And that while we've got a growing audience, I'd say we're doing our job. And that our supporters would say, we trust you.

Tim Burrowes:

Michael Miller, thank you very much for your time.

Michael Miller:

Thank you, Tim.

text

Time to leave you to your Thursday.

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Message us: letters@unmade.media

I’ll be back tomorrow with another update tomorrow

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

The ABC wakes up to its radio ratings crisis
Another anti-siphoning delay?
We can reveal that Meta’s Dan Sinfield has joined the Premium Content Alliance
News Corp links up with Samsung TV, and introduces Total Commerce

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: ABC hires consultants amid nationwide radio ratings slump
Unmade: ABC Radio National’s ratings oblivion
The Australian: Labor to amend nation’s anti-siphoning laws
Sydney Morning Herald: TV reform delay kicks a goal for free-to-air footy fans
The Australian: News Corp Australia chief Michael Miller says content is still king
The Australian: Sky’s unveils a new digital platform (yes, we know it doesn’t make sense, but that’s the headline they’ve gone with)

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade in which we share the final session of last week’s RE:Made - Retail Media Unmade conference.

Last week’s RE:Made closed with a landmark panel. For the first time, the bosses of the retail media networks for Australia’s biggest two supermarkets shared the same stage.

Mike Tyquin, managing director of Woolworths’ Cartology; Paul Brooks, general manager of Coles360; Pippa Leary, MD of client product for News Corp; and Melissa Wyness, chief media and operating officer of Mercato, joined a conversation moderated by Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

The session marked the end of a day when Australia’s nascent retail media community came together for the first time.

The conversation focused on what the retail media industry needs to do to go on building from here, and also shared some favourable comparisons on the market’s progress locally, compared to other major markets.

During the conversation, Leary dropped some hints about how News Corp sees itself fitting into the retail media landscape (“the retail media network when you don’t have a retail media network”).

The panel also debated the changed retailer-supplier power dynamic created by retail media networks, and how media agencies fit into the conversation, addressing the question of who pays for the lunch?

A further question was whether media agencies have now left it too late to get involved. Notably some agency groups were heavily represented at the event, while others appeared to have missed the memo.

For those interested in carrying on the conversation, we’ve created a Retail Media ANZ Linkedin Group. Anyone is welcome to join.

Audio production of today’s podcast was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday morning scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Australia’s TV networks plot a BVOD exchange
Introducing Australia’s new audience measurement service - Iris
The continued rise of retail media
New data suggests more people are consuming subscription video than free TV

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy.

Further reading:

The Australian: The not so secret rise of retail media networks
Australian Financial Review: TV industry asks tech to help build YouTube-killer ad network
The Australian: Viewers flock to paid streaming services, new report shows

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

TV’s inflection point is coming. Any time now (or maybe it happened in the last few weeks), the proportion of the Australian population who watch television the traditional way will fall below half for the first time.

But as fast as traditional ways of watching are falling, new viewing habits are forming - or that’s what the data in Think TV’s regularly produced Fact Pack suggests.

Analysis of OzTam data for the second half of last year by Think TV suggests that commercial audiences are on the move - from television consumed via their aerials, to video streams.

In today’s Unmade podcast, Tim Burrowes talks to Think TV’s director of research, insights & education Steve Weaver and to the organisation’s CEO Kim Portrate about the meaning behind the numbers.

In the first half of 2022, just over 14.1m Australians - or 54.3% of the potential viewing population - were watching TV and only doing it the linear way, via their aerials or Foxtel dish.

By the second half of 2022, that number had fallen to 13.3m, or 51%.

A question Portrate and Waver address during the conversation is whether in the early months of 2023, we have since passed the inflection point, and less than 50% of Australians are now watching TV the old-fangled way.

Also revealed in the data is that in the first half of last year, 3.6m (or 13.7% of the population) were watching commercial TV on a combination of linear TV or via streaming. That rose to 4.1m, or 15.6% of the population, by the second half.

The number of people giving up on their aerial or dish to watch broadcast TV only via streaming also rose sharply - from 1.5m to 1.8m. With some smart TVs, the viewers may not even have realised that’s what they were doing.

Reassuringly for the TV industry, the jump in streaming viewing seems to be going up almost as fast as the linear switchoff is occurring. Total reach across linear and BVOD (broadcast video on demand) only dipped from 19.23m to 19.17m, a fall of just 0.3%.

It’s worth noting that all of the analysis is based on OzTam data which only covers Australia’s broadcasters, not streaming-only platforms like Netflix or Stan.

During the wide ranging conversation, we raise the issue of the TV industry’s slow implementation of a daily total viewing number to move away from the fast-fading overnight metro metric.

Portrate says that will happen this year. In the conversation she was also challenged to predict how long until the TV transmitters can be turned off altogether as streamign becomes the only means of viewing. It might be sooner than you think. And we canvassed both Weaver and Portrate on whether the likes of Netflix would be welcomed onto OzTam in the same way the streamer has been allowed onto the UK’s audience measurement service.

The full Fact Pack is available on the Think TV website

Tim Burrowes

Publisher - Unmade

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday morning scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Australia’s podcasting spend revealed
Another HBO extension for Foxtel
A Logies mystery
Will the government take on the networks on quotas?
What we learned from results season

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Further reading:

IAB Australia: Digital Audio Advertising Spend Surges To $221m In Australia
The Australian: Foxtel poised to ink multi-year deal with US media giant Warner Bros Discovery
The Australian: Media Diary: The Logies: no date, no location
The Australian: Albanese government faces pushback on streaming content obligations
Unmade: Nine's Sneesby gets better at navigating the awkward questions
Unmade: Tuesdata: Profits begin to fall as Seven West Media prepares for a chilly 2023
Unmade: Tuesdata: Unpacking Ooh Media's financial results; can the good old days of 2019 return?
Unmade: The end game approaches for HT&E
Unmade: Southern Cross Austereo has had its worst ever start to a financial year. Can Listnr change the trajectory?

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday morning scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

Meta launches paid verification (but that’s not the bit worth paying for);
Adland prepares for the downturn;
What to expect in the last big week of results season

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Further reading:

Meta Newsroom: Testing Meta Verified to Help Creators Establish Their Presence
The Australian: ABC’s triple apology to Kamahl over Phillip Adams tweet misses the mark
Australian Financial Review: News Corp’s REA asks workers to go into ‘negative leave’ to cut costs
Australian Financial Review: Why TV execs aren’t (too) worried about a 22pc plunge in ad spend
Unmade: Southern Cross Austereo has had its worst ever start to a financial year. Can Listnr change the trajectory?
Unmade: Profits begin to fall as Seven West Media prepares for a chilly 2023
Australian Financial Review: HT&E’s biggest investor sees benefits to media consolidation

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an interview-led edition of Unmade. Today’s primary focus is Melbourne media veteran Ben Willee

For a second week in a row, Unmade’s podcast features a Melbourne based media expert called Ben. This week’s guest is Ben Willee, GM and media director of the WPP-aligned Spinach Advertising. Willee has been with Spinach for the last 11 years. Earlier in his career he spent a decade with IPG’s Initiative, in London and Melbourne.

The interview, with Unmade’s Tim Burrowes, focuses on the short term and long term media outlook (Without predicting a recession, Willee is considering for the eventuality); he offers his interpretation of the first results from reporting season; and he assesses the importance of The Olympics in Nine’s strategy.

Willee also suggests that some of those who’ve got used to flitting between jobs in a tight talent market might be about to get a painful surprise. And like all of us, he wishes there were more LinkedIn thought pieces on what ChatGPT means for marketing.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday morning scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

M&A chat: a tie-up between Seven West Media and HT&E?;
Results season - How News Corp fared and the outlook for SWM, Southern Cross Austereo, Enero and Domain this week;
Breaking Bad pulls in the Super Bowl attention;
How Married At First Sight is killing the opposition

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Seven eyes plan to create Australia’s next $1 billion media company
Unmade: Wind turns for News Corp
CBS Sports: Super Bowl commercials - A sneak peak at the ads that will air during Super Bowl 57 between Eagles and Chiefs
NFL Game Pass
Nine: TV Ratings Week 6
The Australian: Media Diary - The Project battles after Carrie and Lisa exits

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an interview-led edition of Unmade. Today’s primary focus is Ben Shepherd’s first in depth interview since joining Dentsu as chief investment officer.

Talking Dentsu

In the first Unmade podcast interview of the year, Dentsu’s new chief investment officer Ben Shepherd joined Unmade’s Tim Burrowes.

In the wide-ranging interview, Shepherd explains why he sees retail media as one of the most elegant, “wealth creating” media developments since adwords; he argues that there’s nothing wrong with leaving a job after a couple of years if you feel you’re not making the impact you want to; and he explains the style he will bring to negotiations with media owners.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Start the Week, our Monday morning scene-setter for the week ahead.

Today:

News Corp gears up for results week, and weighs cuts with ‘Audience 25’ project;

Will the new quotas be a boost for Foxtel’s HBO hopes?

Chris Janz prepares to exit stealth mode

ANZ invests in Antony Catalano’s real estate play;

Has the TV ad market peaked?

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: Murdoch’s News Corp Australia prepares to slash costs by $20 million

Sydney Morning Herald: What next for White Lotus? Content rules may change HBO’s streaming plans

Australian Financial Review: Former Fairfax executives score VC backing for mystery start-up

Australian Financial Review: ANZ went house hunting at Domain, bought at View Media

Think TV: Total TV advertising market records $4.1 billion in ad revenue for 2022

Unmade: Waiting for VOZ

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

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Welcome to the final Start the Week podcast of 2022, in which Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy look back on the ten biggest stories of the year.

Brand PR crises of 2022:

Unmade: Has Qantas got a brand crisis or just a PR problem?
Unmade: Optus writes a new chapter in the crisis handbook

The big marketer moves:

Unmade: Biggest CMO move of the year - Thinking Smart
Unmade: Lisa Ronson departs one of the biggest CMO roles, but how to mark her Coles scorecard?
Unmade: Marketers on the move - Melissa Hopkins to SWM

The AFL TV rights renewal:

Unmade: Why Seven and Foxtel are willing to pay $40,000 per minute for the AFL deal

The Market Herald saga:

Unmade: The Unmade podcast: Jag Sanger of The Market Herald on buying Gumtree and Carsguide, and launching a newspaper
Unmade: Inside the The Market Herald's civil war

The ABC’s audio audience decline:

Unmade: Is the ABC's next generation of radio listeners coming through? Not according to the ratings
Unmade: Triple J's youth audience has fled. And no, it's (mostly) not the internet's fault - they've switched to commercial radio
Unmade: Australia's most influential radio show has never had fewer listeners. The ABC's audience problem is getting worse
Unmade: The collapse of Patricia Karvelas’ RN audience

Musk’s Twitter purchase:

Unmade: Why Elon Musk's Twitter takeover will probably fail
Unmade: Rich, talented arseholes
Unmade: Elon’s Twitter bloodbath begins
Unmade: Musk's 'thermonuclear' threat to advertisers

The legal year:

Unmade: Media's season in court: How The Teacher's Pet changed Australia's podcast landscape

The year of audio:

Unmade: What we learned from Listnr
Unmade: The economics of podcasting
Unmade: Mamamia takes on the podcast giants

Netflix moves in to advertising:

Unmade: The Netflix U-turn

The year in Unmade:

Unmade: Two awards, a fraud, and an unwelcome exit: the messy trajectory of Unmade’s startup phase

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

ITim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast, looking at the agenda for the week ahead. Today:

Ten closes on cricket rights
Another chaotic weekend inside the brain of Elon Musk
Paul Barry set for Media Watch record

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Ten vows to ‘restore cricket to former prominence’ after $200m+ bid
The Australian: Cricket chiefs face final pitches for broadcast rights
The Australian: Paul Barry signs on to top Media Watch record

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast. Today:

Anti-siphoning lobbying goes into overdrive
Will TikTok and YouTube be pulled into the News Media Bargaining Code?
What the Balenciaga scandal says about fashion mags
Musk’s feeble “Twitter Files”
The war at The Market Herald

Today’s episode feature Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: TikTok, YouTube could be targeted under Australia’s media code
Australian Financial Review: Seven, Nine, Ten fight to keep sport on free to air TV
The Australian: ‘Outdated, anti-competitive’: TV’s anti-siphoning laws face overhaul
New Daily: Balenciaga’s reputation in tatters after ‘creepy’ photo shoot
New Daily: What Balenciaga’s BDSM controversy tells us about high fashion’s dire problems
Wired: The Twitter Files Revealed One Thing: Elon Musk Is Trapped
Unmade: How the ASX’s fastest growing media company imploded

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast, recorded first thing on Monday, looking at the agenda for the week ahead. Today:

Winners and losers of the TV ratings year
All change at A Current Affair and Today
Mick Molloy’s return to Triple M

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: TV ratings spark fighting and soul-searching among executives
The Australian: Seven casts a wide sports net
Mumbrella: OzTam ratings 2022: Seven retains total audience crown, while Nine keeps key demos
Unmade: In praise of The Project - why teatime telly still matters to the networks
The Australian: Intrigue grows over how Ten plans to redeploy Lisa Wilkinson
Unmade: Can Molloy win over Sydneysiders from 700km away?

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Today’s edition features highlights from last week’s live event in Melbourne where our panel discussed the year just gone, and the outlook for marketing in 2023.

Last Tuesday saw Unmade’s first live event in Melbourne, with 70 or so guests joining us at the Grace Darling in Collingwood for on on stage debate about the industry’s direction of travel.

The panel featured Nick Garrett, partner at Deloitte Creative; Naomi Johnston, GM of Havas Media; Richard Curtis, owner of Futurebrand Australia and Andrea Dixon, head of marketing at DocuSign.

Among the questions the panel raced through were: the work and people that impressed them in the year just gone; what the word ‘brand’ now means; the state of talent and recruitment, the economic headwinds that seem set for 2023; and reasons for optimism.

The event was sponsored by Beatgrid.

Even more thanks than usual for the podcast edit go to Abe’s Audio, who salvaged our low-fi backup recording into something useable.

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast looking at the agenda for the week ahead. Today:

Lisa Wilkinson leaves The Project
Chris Dore leaves The Australian
Peter Fray takes a break from Crikey
Elon Musk gives up on brand safety, and reinstates Twitter’s most toxic - Jordan Peterson, Donald Trump, Kanye West and Andrew Tate
How the sausage is made in newspaper readership data

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: Top News Corp editor departed after lewd comments towards woman
Sydney Morning Herald: Crikey editor-in-chief on indefinite leave after journalism awards incident
Unmade: #RIPTwitter?
Bloomberg: Twitter’s Survival as a Subscription Service Depends on Apple and Google
The Australian: Readership: The Australian stays well ahead of rival in latest Roy Morgan research

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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In today's episode of The Unmakers, Unmade’s Tim Burrowes talk to Jamie Harding, founder and CEO of streaming platform Theatrix.

Theatrix targets arts-loving consumers who want to recapture the experience of attending the theatre, at home.

Still at an early stage, the platform has launched and begun to sign up subscribers at a fee of $8 per month.

The content offered by Theatrix is filmed arts performances including theatre and dance.

In the interview, Harding talks about how Theatrix was conceived, and the challenges of launching a streaming platform at the height of Covid. Theatrix is currently undergoing an investment round aimed at widening its reach.

Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's Audio. If you're an unmaker with a story to tell about how you're changing the media and marketing world, we’d love to hear from you on letters@unmade.media.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast, looking at the agenda for the week ahead.

Today:

Cricket, Olympics and tennis rights play out
Who won the TV ratings week
Why 2GB moved on from Jim Wilson;
Kyle & Jackie O’s unusual ratings jump
Communications minister on the stalled media regulations
Did the news media bargaining code work?
More chaos at Twitter

Further reading:

The Australian: Cricket Australia eyeing off a pre-Christmas broadcast rights deal
Sydney Morning Herald: Olympic bosses fly in to negotiate Games broadcast deal
Nine / OzTam: Weekly TV ratings wrap
Unmade: The mystery of Kyle & Jackie O
Australian Financial Review: Media giants flush with Facebook-Google money like the new normal
SMH: ‘Stuck in a rut’: Diversity rules to be overhauled in major media reform
SMH: Meta Australia braces for impact of global job cuts

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

If you’re in Melbourne, don’t forget to take a look at out Marketing in 2023 event, which is next week.

I’ll be back tomorrow with Tuesdata for our paying members.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast, recorded first thing on Monday, looking at the agenda for the week ahead.

Today:

Twitter lays off half its staff, including most of the Australian team
Musk threatens ‘thermonuclear’ retaliation against marketers who cancel advertising;
Nine closes in on tennis rights extension as cricket bidding opens
The ABC prepares for radical management restructure

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Nine on verge of new Australian Open deal, as Cricket accepts bids
Sydney Morning Herald: ABC boss David Anderson to restructure organisation, shift to BBC model
Marketing Week: Mark Ritson - Five lessons on how not to do pricing from Elon Musk’s Twitter

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of Unmade.

Today’s interview features Ooh Media boss Cathy O’Connor reflecting on her first two years with the company, while further down we have the details of a red day on the Unmade Index.

In today’s Unmade interview, I chat to Cathy O’Connor as she approaches the two year mark with Ooh Media.

We cover a lot of ground, beginning with her reminding me that when she took the job I’d (wrongly) suggested she might find it boring, after the excitement of running Lachlan Murdoch’s radio company Nova Entertainment.

We discuss Ooh’s pledge to make public spaces better in the wake of the backlash to QMS’s City of Sydney rollout; the adjustment from running a private business to an ASX-listed company; why she’s the only female CEO of a big media company; her decision to sell Junkee; and her agenda for the Outdoor Media Association after boss Charmaine Moldrich departs next year.

We also cover off the announcements from last week’s Ooh Outfront event - including the push into retail media through ReOoh, a tie up with Tennis Australia; measuring creative effectiveness in outdoor, and buying out of home advertising programatically.

We also cover what O’Connor did not know when she took the job, and what she’d like to change about the industry. It’s a packed 36 minutes.

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Tim Burrowes

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast

Today:

Elon Musk bursts into Twitter
Mutiny rebrands as Mutinex, and makes a big hire
Verdict on the Seven and Ooh Media upfronts
Press Council verdict on the outing of Rebel Wilson

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

tim@unmade.media

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Today’s topic: Do the public expect brands to do good, and what does that actually look like?

Truth be told, when I was first offered the opportunity to cover today’s topic, I was hesitant.

There’s been a lot of bandwagon jumping around the area of brand purpose and corporate social responsibility, not just in brands trying to boost their credentials in the space, but agencies positioning themselves as the ones to do so.

But the subject of today’s podcast - Leo Burnett’s study of public expectations around brands doing good - is more pragmatic.

In my conversation with Catherine King, chief strategy officer of Leo Burnett, we cover a lot of ground - including scepticism around brands’ true intent, the reality that companies’ underlying behaviour matters more than actions happening only at a branding level, and the moment when brands can actually start talking about their activities.

We also dive into the intriguing statistic that Sky News Australia viewers appear to be the most likely to be selfish, with 27% of them saying they’d be unwilling to pay more for a brand that does the right thing. By contrast, Ten News viewers are the most altruistic, with 84% saying they’d be willing to pay more.

tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast, recorded first thing on Monday, looking at the agenda for the week ahead.

Today:

Foxtel plans for Binge and Kayo merger
Nine considers its options for Stan
The ABC prepares to shift budget to digital
Tennis rights set for early renewal

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to an audio-led edition of The Unmakers, featuring Nicolas Chu, founder and CEO of Australian marketing technology startup Sinorbis.

As well as running Sinorbis, Chu is former MD of Expedia Asia Pacific and Professor of Practice at UNSW Business School.

Sinorbis helps marketers, mostly in the higher education and B2B sector, to tailor their messages using the right language and platforms for the countries they are targeting. The company already offers its services to clients in Australia, New Zealand, the UK and US.

Yesterday Sinorbis announced it was expanding its offering from covering just the Chinese market to the whole of Asia.

If you’ve been forwarded this by someone else, don’t forget to sign up for our almost-daily email at unmade.media

If you’re doing something new in media and marketing, I’d love to talk to you on The Unmakers. Email me at tim@unmade.media

Audio production on the podcast was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Have a great day

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

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Today:

Implications of the News Corp - Fox Corporation re-merger
Modernising the anti-siphoning laws
Who won the ratings week?
Frankly’s weak ratings start
Nine and Stan set to lose NBC Universal content
Carrie Bickmore’s million dollar pay packet
Ten gets sued by its own employee
The failing launch of news.net

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today's edition of The Unmakers features Alex Pan, founder of Australia-based publishing technology startup Storipress. The Unmakers is Unmade’s podcast where I interview entrepreneurs starting new businesses and projects seeking to change how the media and marketing industry does business.

Created as a code-free alternative to the likes of WordPress and Substack, Storipress broke cover back in July, revealing it had raised $500,000 in seed funding.

Storipress has been accepted onto the local startup accelerator project Startmate, with early investors including former Junkee Media cofounder Tim Duggan.

In the conversation, Pan shares the story of how frustrations with his own publishing venture inspired him to create a new platform, and shares his philosophy on what’s needed to fix the ecosystem and how he wants to become “Shopify for media companies”.

If you’re doing something new in media and marketing, I’d love to talk to you. Email me at tim@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the Start the Week podcast, recorded first thing on Monday, looking at the agenda for the week ahead. Today:

Formula 1 finale’s TV shambles
Grand finals ratings: Comparing the codes
Paramount shifts target to cricket
Government offers connected TV support for local players
Ratings duds from Love Boat and Frankly
ABC rejects youth criticisms
Governments’ questionable ad spend

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

A message from our sponsor:

Global but proudly local, Paramount ANZ is taking brands into tomorrow.

From a mountain of content to innovative advertising solutions, Paramount ANZ connects brands with future generations who are tomorrow’s customers.

See tomorrow.

Relevant links:

news.com.au: Max Verstappen crowned world champion in farcical scenes
Sydney Morning Herald: Paramount could bat for cricket, remains bullish on sports rights
Sydney Morning Herald: Dropping the ball? What to make of the TV ratings for footy grand finals
Australian Financial Review: Streaming apps come to the rescue for local TV networks
Nine: Weekly Oztam analysis
The Australian: Ita defends Fran
Australian Financial Review: Governments spend more on ads than Harvey Norman and Maccas

Audio production was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Of the big three, we’re now two Upfronts in. Nine went first, back in mid-September, and yesterday it was the turn of Ten’s owner, Paramount, which took over the ICC for the afternoon to tell us its plans for 2023.

Returning from the pandemic live event hiatus, there have been new Upfronts themes. Both Nine and Ten opened with performances from indigenous Australians. Both leaned into the dry ice. Nine went for flames, while Ten had glitter cannons in the ceiling. Both gave almost as much prominence to their tech partnerships as they did the content slate. And both emphasised the scale of their wider companies.

This is where they begin to diverge.

In Nine’s case, the scale comes from width - the multi-platform nature of the company, with TV, radio and publishing offerings. In the case of Paramount, the scale comes from depth - being the only free to air network that’s part of a global media organisation. Being the people who brought you Top Gun is quite the halo.

While Nine’s theme last month was “Australia belong here”, Paramount’s was “See tomorrow”.

As you’ll see from the top of this page, there’s also audio embedded, and available as a podcast to accompany this post. Earlier this week, I interviewed Paramount’s content boss Beverley McGarvey and commercial boss Jarrod Villani and we talked not just about 2023, but the company more widely.

I realised that I had automatically labelled the file where I stored my interview notes “Paramount”, not “Ten”. Five years after Ten was bought out of administration by CBS (which quickly became Viacom-CBS and then Paramount), it now feels like a company that adds up to more than Ten-and-the-other-bits.

Paramount owns not just the pay TV brands of MTV and Nickelodeon, but also the subscription streaming platform Paramount Plus and, as the company announced yesterday, the free ad supported TV channels offering of Pluto TV.

The hot new acronym is FAST - free ad-supported streaming television. FAST will be as important to the next phase of the TV networks as the launch of BVOD (broadcast video on demand) was five or six years ago. It’s the next TV battleground.

Viewers consume FAST channels differently to video on demand. For anyone who’s lost half an hour dithering over a menu of shows, FAST restores the curation of broadcast, and that means more video consumption.

The point of FAST channels is that, like broadcast television, the choice is made for the viewer. It’s lean back, not lean forward. Channel surfing is back too.

I wrote about the likely arrival of Pluto TV late last year, so it’s not a surprise to see it coming.

As you’ll hear in the podcast, Paramount is being cagey about how many Pluto channels will be offered initially as part of its free 10play streaming platform. When I pushed Villani on it a couple of times, all he’d share was “a number”. Although he wouldn’t say so, I understand that number will be initially be between 10 and 20. In terms of timing, Villani said it would be this side of Christmas.

My guess is that just as Ten All Access rebranded to Paramount Plus, in time 10play will fully rebrand to Pluto TV. Pluto is big business for Paramount globally, already writing a billion dollars in revenues.

Nine announced at its Upfront that it will launch its own FAST channels, but had so little detail my guess is that it is some way off launch. For something so strategically important that feels like a miss.

Meanwhile, Seven West Media - which holds its Upfront in just over a fortnight from now - was actually first mover in this market and already offers 50 FAST channels on Seven Plus in addition to its broadcast brands.

Another point of difference for Ten was that unlike Nine, it revealed its programming grid for the year. Curiously, it broke 2023 into two uneven halves - the eight months up to August, and the final four from September onwards.

In recent years Ten has started its main schedule early, while Nine and Seven are still airing their summer sports of tennis and cricket. But I’m A Celebrity will no longer kick off Ten’s year, shifting back to Easter, with production returning to Africa rather than the rain forest of Murwillumbah.

Instead, Ten will start the year with The Bachelors, as it remixes the format with three Bachelors instead of one. It will also be resting companion series The Bachelorette this year. The revised format had previously been announced, but footage from the show got one of the strongest reactions in the room yesterday. I could see myself enjoying hate watching these nitwits.

Conversely, I suspect that the Paramount team would have been more disappointed with the in-room reaction to the announcement of a local version of the UK show Taskmaster. It is well cast with Tom Gleeson as the local Taskmaster, but it’s one of those shows that unless you’ve seen it, it’s hard to understand the appeal. Although it will run in the first half, it’s not yet in local production, so there were no clips. Extracts from the UK version didn’t do much to advance that understanding. The Ten promo department usually does a better job.

That said, the chase format Hunted, which launched last year, was similarly hard to capture in a sizzle reel beforehand, but that didn’t stop it from being one of Ten’s successes of 2022.

Other detail for the first half included a shorter series of Masterchef than usual, and a UK-Australian co-production of cop-out-of-water comedy drama North Shore.

The other trailer which got a big reaction was Last King of the Cross, the Underbelly-style glorification of the less than savoury John Ibrahim. This will run in the second half of 2023.

There are more new formats in H2.

Ten will offer a spin-off from Masterchef, Dessert Masters. It will also air The Traitors, a murder mystery guessing game hosted by Rodger Corser. There was already footage in the can of this one which suggests Ten isn’t exactly itching to rush it on air as soon as possible. The trailer felt more like a dinner party game than primetime.

Bravely, Ten also announced a second season of The Real Love Boat. In an awful piece of timing, it made its debut on Wednesday night to poor ratings of just 215,000 metro viewers. Unless those improve dramatically over the next couple of weeks, there seems little prospect of that making the 2023 schedule despite what the grid said.

Meanwhile, the announcements about technology were tactical rather than strategic.

A shop-the-tweet integration between Ten and Twitter called The Checkout felt a few years late. remember companion apps?

And a number of announcements around connected television advertising integration and measurement came across as necessary but not particularly exciting plumbing.

The See Tomorrow theme was appropriate for a number of reasons. The major one is that we are yet to see the Paramount spending power unleashed on sport. The company only narrowly missed out on AFL rights last month. Imagine how different yesterday’s event would have been if it had won.

Instead Villani referred on stage a couple of times to the $12bn parent company’s financial strength. You don‘t have to read too far between the lines to see that as a willingness to continue to chase big sports rights. As the network that made Big Bash a hit in the first place, Ten is a more natural home for short form cricket than Seven. And to a global company like Paramount, the Olympics must be of major interest too.

Sport is the major missing piece for Paramount. In the last financial year, Ten’s revenue share of the metro broadcast advertising market was less than 24%, while Nine and Seven did about 38% each. Ten can only grow that by growing its audience.

See tomorrow? We will eventually.

Tim Burrowes

tim @unmade.media

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Welcome to a Thursday edition of the Unmade podcast featuring the CEO of FutureBrand Australia, Rich Curtis. In the conversation, we talk about the top global companies featured in this year’s FutureBrand Index, and how he ended up helping win an outsider election campaign.

The FutureBrand Index is an exploration of perceptions of the world’s top 100 global brands by size.

Just two Australian-headquartered brands are big enough to make it onto the list - BHP and CommBank.

Among the surprises is the improvement in Meta’s ranking since the rebranding of Facebook’s parent company. And the number one company on the index has almost no profile in Australia - Curtis explains how it got so far up the list.

During the interview, Curtis reveals the behind-the-scenes role he played in the last Federal election, and offers his own verdict on the trajectory of local brands including the head-to-head battle between Coles and Woolworths, and the decline of Qantas.

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio

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Today’s topics:

Nova’s financials revealed

Seven closes in on NBC Universal deal

Nine says goodbye to Nick Falloon

What to expect in Ten’s upfronts

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media, or comment below.

Further reading on today’s topics:

Sydney Morning Herald: Nova radio tunes in with advertising rebound

Australian Financial Review: TV rights battle could lead to new Netflix, Disney+ competitor

Nine ASX announcement: Director retirement - Nick Falloon

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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This has been a significant week for the biggest Australian media company that you probably haven’t heard of. Headquartered in Perth and with more than 100 staff, The Market Herald has completed a $27m fund raising to buy classified sites Gumtree, Carsguide and, Autotrader.

The Market Herald is parent company of the Hot Copper trading forum and the new acquisitions will catapult it the front row of the classified media battle. TMH is the seventh largest media company (of seven) listed on the ASX.

In the Unmade interview, TMH’s CEO and founder Jag Sanger explains the company’s business model, and reveals his plans to launch a new national weekly business newspaper alongside a push into lifestyle publishing and a 24 hour business news streaming channel.

Today's episode of the Unmade podcast was edited by Abe's audio.

Transcript

Tim Burrowes:I'm talking today to the founder and CEO of the biggest Australian media company that you've probably never heard of. Jag Sanger is the boss of The Market Herald, who surprised the market by announcing that they were buying Gumtree, Carsguide and Autotrader. The move makes them a big player in the classified advertising space. The Market Herald itself is a publication focusing on business news in both written and video form. Tim Burrowes:They've got big ambitions including a new weekly national business newspaper and a 24-hour business channel. The company also owns the gossipy investor forum, Hot Copper. I began by asking Jag how the company got to this point.Jag Sanger:Well, thank you. That's a good question. Right now we're at about 110 people split between Australia and Canada. I think one of the reasons why we're somewhat under the radar is in Australia, we're based in Perth, which is perhaps not known as a hotbed of media, and in Canada we're based in Vancouver.Jag Sanger:I think one of the things that has happened, and it hasn't been a deliberate plan on our part, is that because we've built an audience which is in Australia and it's in Vancouver, but it's also... Sorry in Canada, but it's also very much a global audience and we're building some activities which are outside of Australia, people haven't noticed who we are. In Nielsen always though, as a finance play, we've always been number one for impressions.Jag Sanger:We always are delighted about the success of our legacy competitor, the AFR. I think because there is a misunderstanding sometimes of business media, people don't quite understand that we're here, but we're here and we're growing very fast.Tim Burrowes:Well, in a moment we'll talk about The Market Herald now and let's talk about the wider portfolio as well. You're also... I'm not sure if the right phrase is to be owner of a community, but let's say it is. You're also the owner of probably the best-known finance community in Hot Copper. How do you think about that within the portfolio?Jag Sanger:Sure. I think this is a very important part of our journey and a very important part of how we think media organisations are evolving. If we look at how media business has worked, that once upon a time you would have, let's say a newspaper and then you would have classifieds and then by accident you had a community. Classifieds made all the money, community were people who sent you letters and your reason for being was the front page.Jag Sanger:We are that almost in opposite. We have built digital communities. Here in Australia, Hot Copper is easily the largest community for stock market investors. In Canada, Stockhouse is easily the largest community for stock market investors as well, so we own two of the largest communities. We're in that process of acquiring classifieds. We're bucking the trend there. It's a very important part of our business, and the punchline is that we will be releasing broadsheet national business newspapers, in this country and in other countries.Jag Sanger:It will be the first launch of a national business newspaper in this country since what? 1962. There's only two national newspapers in this country. We hope to be the third. This community is incredibly important for us because, one, it gives us readers, it allows us to turn some of the economics of journalism on its head and I'm happy to talk about how that works.Jag Sanger:But it's where we find out what people want to read, we want to find out what people want to view, and that community is a source of petabytes of data for us, which drives our data-led journalism.Tim Burrowes:Well, there's several interesting things there that I'll try and unpack, particularly the launch of a news master head in print form I think you're saying. Let's just talk for a moment about The Market Herald and that model because I'm amused with your labeling the AFR as your legacy competitor but fair enough. How do you think about your publishing ethos for The Market Herald?Jag Sanger:Well, firstly, just to talk about the Financial Review, I used to work for Fairfax. I used to run media and strategy there, a huge affection for the AFR and all its people and as they write about us often I suspect that we're forever in their thoughts as well, so we love to bits.Tim Burrowes:You're referring there to your occasional appearances in the Rear Window column of the AFR.Jag Sanger:You know one day I'll break out of Rear Window and they'll celebrate what we're doing somewhere else in the book and it'll be a happy day for us all. But no, no, we like them and we think they're doing good work. In terms of The Market Herald, just repeat the question. What was the question for The Market Herald?Tim Burrowes:Yeah. The Market Herald, what's your publishing ethos for The Market Herald?Jag Sanger:Sure. One of the things that we think is really important as a news outlet and as a media proposition in a world which is very noisy, with many audiences and huge fragmentation, all the stuff that we know, is to have a very, very clear sense of who your reader or viewer is to understand why they want to read and view you and then make a very, very quick decision, are you in the utility news business or are you in the must-know news business?Jag Sanger:We think utility users is going to a handful of publishers worldwide. There'll be this global giant, but in this must-read world, what we do is help people make decisions in a short period of time without all the information with a financial consequence and we give them that information quickly. Our classic reader is a... And to be horribly gendered for a second, a 55-year-old man who wants to buy a $10,000 worth of Telstra stock. Should I do it? Should I not do it?Jag Sanger:In that moment, we provide the information to them. But again, to be horribly gendered, the other kind of buyer we have is an equally intelligent and often smarter 25-year-old woman who's thinking about spending 10 grand on a used Chanel handbag. She also has information needs, she also needs to know in real time and we serve both those audiences.Jag Sanger:By giving people information they need when they're in state, and this is a very specific language that we use, we're ultimately a data business, when we track this degree of almost psychological arousal for why they must know, we are there and that's what The Market Herald is about.Tim Burrowes:This is both in the written word and in video?Jag Sanger:Absolutely. I think video is very interesting for us. We are easily one of the largest standalone streamers in this country of broadcast quality content. We are running at around nine to 11 million streams a month here in Australia and elsewhere. To understand how people consume media, how they consume video, how they consume the written word, that's something we spend a lot of time in actually working out but that's what we get from the communities we own.Tim Burrowes:Now, something you just mentioned was that you plan on launching a financial broad sheet, which was new information for me. I probably missed an announcement at some point. What is your plan there?Jag Sanger:Sure. We said this right from the beginning that we consider ourselves a newspaper and that we consider there is a viable business model for something we think is as beautiful and as amazing as a newspaper. We think as a product, as a cultural artefact, as a revenue stream, as a reason for being, it's really important to us and it's something we will be launching soon.Tim Burrowes:That's as a daily offering?Jag Sanger:No. I think if you look at the way the business meter is running around the world, it is let's say a Monday through Thursday digital offer, which is what most even print newspapers are doing. Then the weekend offer, which is a very interesting revenue earner and a very different proposition at the weekend for most of the big business press, that will be in print.Jag Sanger:It will be something which will have the cover mounts and the inserts that you have in traditional business news but the two will complement each other. We think a business audience at the weekend looks, feels, consumes differently and we'll serve them as well.Tim Burrowes:This will be available nationally?Jag Sanger:It will be available nationally. We're working out our print runs and our plans right now. We've been talking about this several times and I think it's an important part of the portfolio that we have. We believe here in Australia, we're already number one for online finance news. We are easily number one for business finance, TV streaming news and print is an amazing complement to both of them.Tim Burrowes:Fascinating. Last question on that one, have you yet set a cover price?Jag Sanger:It's a very interesting series of conversations that we're having. All I can say is it will definitely be at a premium.Tim Burrowes:Okay. Now, I suppose one of the other things which interests me about the business model for your portfolio is that some of the business model includes taking effectively shares in some of your advertising clients as they grow their businesses. How does that side of things work?Jag Sanger:There's two ways to look at it. We have a small amount of what exactly what say News Corp does or Seven West does, which is contract. You want to buy X, well, we'll do it in this way. Some of it is that kind of conversation.Tim Burrowes:This for instance would be like where Seven West ventures had stake in Airtasker for instance?Jag Sanger:Correct. They had a stake in Airtasker, they had a stake in... Or they've recently taken a stake in CarExpert, which is a property which we admire greatly and we do some things differently to that but we are kind of in that space. Very similar to that model and it's something that the contra deals people have been doing since the '50s. We get that. We do some of that as well.Jag Sanger:The other thing that we do is because we have a large business audience, one of the areas which we focus on and we see some of our competitors moving into it as well and we think we have different propositions is to provide an opportunity for listed companies and wealth brands to speak to affluent audiences. Now, for these businesses, often which they're smaller, they can be private or they can be listed, we allow them to pay their fees or their cost to ours for billings in stock.Jag Sanger:We don't manage these portfolios. It's not held as a way of making money, just simply a cash flow mechanism for smaller businesses. Sometimes we win and sometimes we lose and every time we're indifferent because it's not about making money on those portfolios, it's just simply a way of reaching different kinds of advertisers who may not yet have funds but who we believe in.Tim Burrowes:Presumably some of this content that you then create for these people is what... The phrase has gone out of fashion a bit, but would've previous been called advertorial or native advertising. How do you ensure the independence of your general reporting on business versus your coverage of those clients?Jag Sanger:One of the things that we do here, which is really interesting is our editorial team and our newsroom, they do not know what is a paying client and what isn't. That's the first thing. The second, when it comes to native, advertorial and sponsored, one of the things that we are almost religiously fixated on is if it's sponsored, it says sponsored at the top in 12-point font, it's orange and it's clear that it's sponsored. Jag Sanger:Our word of sponsored is if we have been paid for it or if there's been any degree of editorial sign-off from a client, then it says sponsored. What we don't do is to do what, for example, Forbes do where I think there is potentially an opportunity to... or a situation where you may begin to devalue some of your trust where sponsored is called something else.Jag Sanger:What we don't do is use the word special report, which again, some of our peers do and what we absolutely don't do, which is what some of our other competitors do, which is to barely mention it at all. The way that we do it is to be very much on the sunny side of the street. We do work with clients, we do advertorial and native sponsorship, but it's say sponsored if it's sponsored.Tim Burrowes:Well, you're about to make, certainly from where I'm sitting, looks like the biggest move in the history of the company so far, which is acquiring Gumtree, Carsguide, Autotrader. Why?Jag Sanger:I think there's a handful of reasons. First of all, the prescription we had for the business media or any kind of media, how it was is you had the front of the... Let's just take a newspaper. You have the front of the book, which is where your reputation sits. You have the back page, which is sports, which is where your readers sit because it's entertainment. But somewhere towards the back you had those traditional rivers of gold, you had those classified sections which paid for the whole shooting match. Jag Sanger:All journalism has always been sponsored, but usually it was sponsored by small ads for cars and houses and jobs. Well known to everybody, everybody knows this, but over the last 10, 20, 25 years, those classified sections have migrated out of newspapers and they become standalone businesses by themselves. You have the very interesting situation where you take for example Nine in this country, which is a $4 billion business-Tim Burrowes:Well, 3.5 these days. They've not had a good couple of weeks.Jag Sanger:I think there are some travails for everybody, but I think we like to go with four. You then look at the largest real estate listing site, the largest car site, the largest job site, and they have an aggregate valuation of $40 billion plus, 10 times bigger than the largest media business. They own no journalists. From our perspective, the largest general classified site in this country is Gumtree. It's a brand which 90% of this country knows. Jag Sanger:There's a degree of affection and warmth to that brand and to build something of that scale and reach would cost us hundreds of millions of dollars. The first thing is we're back in classifieds and we're back in classifieds with a vengeance. Number two, the opportunity to build other products around that audience, especially in terms of streaming video, especially transactional streaming video are huge.Jag Sanger:Great announcement from the news I think this week or last week about in-video commerce and that's something that we are probably going to be natural leaders in. Then the final thing is it gives us scale. Instead of reaching a million, a million and a half, typically male, typically wealth, typically eastern states, we've now got an audience which is almost one in two economically active adults in this country. Jag Sanger:We think we have great editorial opportunities with that and it gives us classifieds, it gives us what we need structurally and it gives us huge reach. That's why we did it.Tim Burrowes:Obviously that plays you into a couple of classified verticals. Are there others you'd be interested in acquiring or launching into? I guess I'm thinking about jobs in real estate, which are obviously lucrative but also quite competitive.Jag Sanger:That's a really good question. I think there are one or two categories where we are very, very well-positioned, and one of those is autos. Against Carsales who we admire and who we like and who we know very well, against Carsales, we now have similar traffic. Over recent years, the business... This is the Gumtree business, has consolidated the second, third and fourth largest competitor to Carsales. One of those is Carsguide, which I was on the board of, and we know it very well and we think we have a red hot chance in cars.Jag Sanger:To put this in context, we've got similar traffic for private party, cars, people selling their own cars. We're bigger than Carsales. For some aspects of dealer, we're kind of at the similar level. Some of the things structurally we're in possibly a better position for... Carsales is a $6/7 billion business so we think there's a huge amount of opportunity there. Jag Sanger:For some other areas, I'm not sure if the brand travels naturally, so we won't push it, but because we're number one in general classifieds, we actually aggregate several thousand categories and within those categories there are always some gems and we'll put our time and effort into those.Tim Burrowes:Now, you're also looking to play yourself into the, I suppose, consumer lifestyle space with the launch of Market Herald Fancy. How are you thinking about that?Jag Sanger:If you look at how business media used to work, and this is the Wall Street Journals, the New York Times, the Financial Times, let's say the AFR here, if you pick up the newspaper on a Friday or a Saturday, the book will have 48 pages, 52 pages, and it will have maybe two or three ads. We like to think that business newspapers took the ads out to make them easier to read. Jag Sanger:But on a Saturday or a Sunday, that same book will have three inserts in it and there will be 74/76 pages and they will be 60% full page, full colour, glossy and they're carrying ads for high ticket consumer, high-engagement but infrequent purchases. It's travel and jewellery and luxury and all that kind of thing. Fancy is in the same vein of that, probably the closest comp would probably be How To Spend It, which is from the Financial Times. How To Spend It is now probably 30% of the EBIT of the entire Financial Times business. Jag Sanger:If you look at the Wall Street Journal, they have Penta, if you look at... Sorry, yeah, they have Penta, the New York Times has the T Magazine. It's very similar. It's a way of selling product and introducing very, very affluent audiences which are hard to reach, to high-end brands. That's something we're doing.Tim Burrowes:Now, you are also looking ever more closely at the streaming space as well, 24 hours streaming with your ambitions for The Market Herald with TMH One. How will you go about that?Jag Sanger:One of the things that we do very well is... And this is something that we talk about and we're very open about and is very much hidden in plain sight, is we've created a different kind of multi-platform journalism and everybody says that, but our newsrooms look different, they act different and they're run different. We begin at the plumbing layer. We are ultimately plumbers. We have built and plumbed a different kind of newsroom, not hired for a different kind of newsroom.Jag Sanger:We're multiplatform from the beginning. Our workflows editorially link into our news gathering and production for video. Our video streaming, we're one of the largest streaming publishers in Asia Pacific. Certainly we're told that by our streaming partners and we built our own play out. What that basically means is we can produce high quality broadcast quality content. We're not terrestrial, but we can do it maybe at 20% of the cost of terrestrial.Jag Sanger:Now, that ability to take that infrastructure and apply it to different kinds of business and then lifestyle programming absolutely is something that we're focused on and is something we'll be talking about more in the next few months. We've committed to launching a streaming channel called TMH One. We're definitely on track and we look forward to getting that out of the tracks very soon.Tim Burrowes:Would you see that as a potential competitor to the likes of Ausbiz for instance?Jag Sanger:I think, Kylie, we have a huge affection and time for. I think that she's-Tim Burrowes:She's Kylie Merritt me who runs Ausbiz?Jag Sanger:Correct. Yeah. I think, look, it's very interesting. Most of the business TV experiments in this country have failed. If you look at CNN Digital, which it was touted as being one of the biggest changes to CNN for many, many years. They spent two years on it, they spent $300 million and they pulled it after six weeks. If you look at the failed experiments in the UK right now, which have been GB News and a handful of others.Tim Burrowes:Well, in defense of GB News, they are beginning to find an audience now, I think.Jag Sanger:You are correct, there are some programs and some slots which have more than zero views, which was a challenge for them for some time. I give you that. They have got at least one view for most of their slots now. Took a while. I think that we've learned a lot from those failed experiments and I think that that model which was embodied in so many people, which was a terrestrial workflow but somehow tweaked for streaming, we don't believe that works. We think a ground-up integrated workflow is the way to do it.Tim Burrowes:Presumably the rise of connected TVs is one of the factors that makes this the timely moment to do so.Jag Sanger:I think that the opportunity for connected TV is both much greater than people think, but will take much longer to get there. I think that the ability to wrap an idea of programmatic TV, which is how advertisers think about connected TV or always on TV or TV everywhere, doesn't quite match the reality of how people engage with that content. Jag Sanger:One of the really interesting opportunities and realities of business television on big screens, especially streaming business television, is more business TV is walked past in lobbies than watched in seats. We're there. We're thinking about it closely. We have learned a lot from the failed experiments of many of the other terrestrial to streaming formats and we hopefully will get it right and we're going to find out very soon, but we're very confident.Tim Burrowes:You're raising something like $27 million at the moment from your existing shareholders. I noticed there's a slight delay in getting that stock back up and trading on the ASX, certainly as we're talking. I think it was about now we were expecting, but maybe there'll be another week's delay or so. What's the reason for that change in timings?Jag Sanger:First of all, the rights... Sorry, the rights issue was incredibly well supported. We have had all of our existing shareholders take it up, especially institutional shareholders. We'll be announcing who some of those are very soon, which will be very interesting because some of them move past certain thresholds. There was the unfortunate death of a monarch this week, which doesn't happen often and that has delayed our timings. Jag Sanger:Then there's this big kicking and jumping game that happens in Victoria. For those two reasons, the timings were pushed out very slightly but we are hugely pleased by how successful the raising was. There are a number of other things that we have to do to finance this transaction but everything is on track.Tim Burrowes:Now, the organisation has a turnover approaching 30 million. The normalised EBITDA I seem to remember as being about 5 or 6 million. In your last annual report, current debt was about 7 million. Usually the markets like the ratio of the debt to be below the EBITDA. After the raising, where are you expecting your debt to sit?Jag Sanger:I think that we put forward a pro forma in our raising documents and we expect to be about $120-ish million revenue. We expect to be at around 20 million dollars EBITDA. Excuse me. We're not giving guidance on either. We are raising debt and there's a number of different things that will come into play there. It's also worth saying that typically for a media business in the growth phase that we're in and we're growing incredibly quickly each year, the ratio of debt to our market cap is often more significant. Jag Sanger:It'd be fair to say that we are somewhat undervalued at this moment. We're very conscious of that, and the reason for that is that we're very tightly held. One of the things that's happened in this rights issue is most of our shareholders... Well, nearly all of our additional investments come from existing shareholders, which means there's not a lot of stock in the market. For all kinds of reasons, as we grow that will change, our valuation will change.Jag Sanger:Clearly we're not making any forward-looking statements, but I think a rerate would possibly be on the card at some point. At that point we do things differently.Tim Burrowes:Let's talk a little bit more about your background. You've touched on some of this already. You actually found your way into the media with ITV, which is the biggest commercial broadcaster in the UK, back in 1989, which would've been before it was one ITV I guess. What was it that interested you in media in the first place?Jag Sanger:That I think is really interesting. First of all, LWT is I think one of the most interesting broadcasters in the world at the time, and certainly was. It was absolutely that kind of stepping stone between this post-war Reithian public service and the brave new world of selling things. There are so many innovations that happened there that a lot of traditional TV around the world learnt from what happened at LWT but nobody's heard about LWT because it's such a long time ago because I'm so old.Tim Burrowes:London Weekend Television.Jag Sanger:Once upon a time you only saw it at weekends. No, I was incredibly fortunate at that time to get a great job, which was carrying bags and getting people's tea and all that kind of thing. But to me it was actually quite fascinating because I remember so vividly at that time, I earned the grand sum of I think about, I don't know, a few hundred pounds a week, and 30 years later a runner in Central London still earns 300 pounds a week, so it's changed and it hasn't.Tim Burrowes:You then went through cable television and also consulting with McKinsey and later with PwC and along the way, as you've already mentioned, two years at Fairfax, which I think was 2006 to 2008, which was probably when things there were at the most panicked and desperate as the newspaper model went away. What did you learn from that?Jag Sanger:Well, look, if I think and reflect on all of those experiences, I began to work first in probably the world's most significant and interesting broadcast, which doesn't exist anymore. Then I worked at Videotron, which was the most important European cable business, which doesn't exist anymore. Then of course CableTel which literally consolidated to European Cable that doesn't exist anymore. Then I came here and worked a bit for Fairfax, which doesn't exist anymore.Jag Sanger:Your conclusion could be you're a desperately unlucky kind of guy, Jag, which would be one conclusion, or I've seen a lot of things and we kind of know what works and what doesn't work and hopefully we're applying some of those lessons.Tim Burrowes:Without giving any forward-looking guidance, what is your take on the economic outlook for media generally at the moment?Jag Sanger:I think that one of the really interesting things is the growth of the streamers and the decline of the streamers, the way that audiences are going to continue to fragment, but media won't care. Then the really interesting opportunity in business media, and clearly I'm talking my own book because we're in business media. We think the growth and the decline of the streamers is that the magnificence of Netflix and then that short period of existential land grab for anybody grossly distorted production around the world.Jag Sanger:We can see that tide flowing out and it will change a lot of things very quickly. Fragmentation of audience, no one's actually going to care because it's as fragmented as it's going to get. There's enough micro audiences and smart people will realise that there's a difference between utility. Everything will be everywhere at the same time and super, super niche and the super, super niche will thrive. Jag Sanger:Then with business, one of the things that we're very conscious of is we attract in large numbers some of the most affluent, influential, engaged, curious and hard to reach audiences on the planet and unlocking that, getting closer to transactional outcomes means good business programming, coverage news will always attract an audience and that audience is more valuable than people think.Tim Burrowes:Just finally for The Market Herald obviously you're doing the big acquisitions now, Gumtree, Carsguide and Autotrader, is that likely to be it for the short and medium term in terms of acquisitions or do you see more down the track as well?Jag Sanger:If you look at my LinkedIn profile, you will see that I say I'm an M&A guy in media, so I would assume that we will do more on both and this is a platform transaction, which as we publicly said, gives us the opportunity and hopefully the right to do more going forward.Tim Burrowes:Look, and I did say it was the last question, but I have thought of just one more actually, which is inspired by you being the M&A guy. I'd love to know what you do think about that wider media landscape on why these big mergers haven't happened yet. Because it felt like two years ago, maybe even just prior to the pandemic, everything was set for some of the big beasts to come together. Has that, well changed or are we still going to see that, do you think?Jag Sanger:Look, I think there's probably two big reasons. Number one is the history of outside in M&A in media is not good. Let's take Australia for a second. If you look at Nine, if you look at Ten, look at Bauer, the winner was the seller. I think that it's an interesting opportunity to better reflect on some of the reasons why. The second is when you look at the shifting priority of non-financial strategic buyers, it's very different.Jag Sanger:Media is not a fast-growth business to some of these people unless you do things very differently. That then means that the future will be driven very much by non-trade financial buyers and those guys are going to be much more operationally focused. They'll look a lot more like we do and we think that that's the kind of player which will begin to consolidate some of these big beasts.Tim Burrowes:Jag, thank you very much indeed for your time.Jag Sanger:No, I appreciate it. Thank you.Tim Burrowes:That's it from the Unmade podcast for today. If you aren't already signed up to the Unmade email, you can do so at unmade.media. Today's podcast was edited by our friends at Abe's Audio. I'm Tim Burrowes and I'll be back with more soon. Toodle-pip.Speaker 4:Unmade.

Podcast edit by Abe's Audio.

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Today’s topics:

Business media’s new battleground as Forbes and Inc both come to Australia;

The Optus brand after the hack;

How a one-sided Grand Final meant lower AFL ratings

Plummeting prices for media stocks

Damo’s last dance (and Unmade’s next events)

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading on today’s topics:

Australian Financial Review: New business publication to target aspirational eyeballs;

Mumbrella: Forbes Australia CEO on what the brand offers advertisers;

The Australian: Rift widens over $50m Judith Neilson Institute for Journalism prize;

Unmade: Reputation crisis for Optus

The New Daily: AFL grand final’s TV audience was a ratings disaster;

The Australian: Local content quotas on streaming platforms will cause bottlenecks: Disney chief

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In today’s episode of The Unmakers, Tim Burrowes talks to Lizzie Young, CEO for the Australian operation of new social media platform WeAre8.

In the conversation she explains why it was time to leave Nine, why she wants to capture 6.5% of marketers’ social media budgets and reveals the next major step in WeAre8’s product roadmap.

Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s topics:

Royal funeral set to be most watched TV moment of all time

Analysing Nine’s Upfront announcements

The ratings week (and Ten’s Saturday problem)

The perfect Grand Final lineup for Seven

Streaming loophole extended

Pay rise pressures

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading on today’s topics:

WA Today: The Queen’s funeral may be the most-watched event in history

ABC News: Queen Elizabeth's state funeral is today. Here's how to watch, when to watch and what to expect

Unmade: Nine Upfront verdict

Weekly ratings: OzTam ratings analysis via Nine

The Australian: TV execs cheer the red and the white as Sydney Swans beat Collingwood in AFL thriller

Australian Financial Review: Key streaming loophole extended for another five years

The Australian: Federal government extends ‘Alston Determination’ for streaming services

Unmade: Ask for a pay rise

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today Unmade's Tim Burrowes talks to Richard Baker, one of Australia’s most awarded investigative journalists. Later this month he leaves The Age after more than two decades to start his own independent audio company - Southern Ocean Media.

Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s topics:

Media rises to the Royal challenge

Nine’s journalists prepare to strike

TikTok - an espionage machine?

NRL pushes for an extra Foxtel payday

The week in TV

Today’s episode features Tim Burrowes and Abe Udy. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading on today’s topics:

Unmade: Performative

The Australian: Queen Elizabeth II souvenir print editions fly off the shelves

The Australian: Why Albanese did a ‘take two’ on Queen’s address

The Australian: Journalists at Nine Entertainment newspapers set for two-day walkout over pay dispute

Mumbrella: Nine’s Chessell:AAP deal and ‘constructive negotiations with journos’

Sydney Morning Herald: TikTok a ‘tool of espionage’ for China, says boss of media giant

Australian Financial Review: TikTok gets its lobby on

Sydney Morning Herald: NRL to seek millions in compensation from Foxtel after monster AFL deal

Nine corporate: Weekly Oztam analysis

Daily Mail: Channel Nine insiders reveal off-contract The Project host Carrie Bickmore has been targeted to take over from Tracy Grimshaw on A Current Affair

The Australian: Wildcards in ACA’s hunt for new Tracy Grimshaw

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Today’s topics:

Woolies on top: Trusted and distrusted brands;

The week in television : TV networks abandon kids programming; lobbying on free sport; Seven and Foxtel close on AFL deal; Netflix’s local advertising play; Seven’s winning ratings week;

Can Are Media navigate the ecommerce pivot?

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

Unmade: The trust factor

The Australian: TV content quotas send kids to streaming services

Via Twitter:

Sydney Morning Herald: Most Australians concerned about price of subscriptions, don’t want to pay for sport: Deloitte

Sydney Morning Herald: Netflix with ads is coming this year. Here’s what we know

Australian Financial Review: AFL set to lock in Seven, Foxtel TV deal

The Australian: AFL set to renew broadcast deal with Foxtel, Seven

Oztam: The ratings week via Nine

Mumbrella: Are Media’s Jane Huxley on the survival of print media in Australia and the acceleration of e-commerce in publishing

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast.

Today’s topics:

The media merger lessons of results season;

ScoMo’s mysterious Tourism Australia sacking;

Is Nine really winning the TV ratings?

The Cat’s real estate masterplan

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Today’s Unmade podcast features adman, author and podcaster Nigel Marsh, whose latest book Smart, Stupid & Sixty has just been published.

Marsh describes how his new portfolio career took off after a much talked about TEDx presentation in which he channeled his hatred of working in a big advertising job.

To view a transcript go to unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast.

Today’s topics:

Qantas makes another apology as its reputational data shows decline;

Carsguide and Gumtree set to join the Hot Copper stable;

A big media week: AFL TV deal is imminent; Radio ratings on Tuesday; Financial results for SCA and NINE

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

Australian Financial Review: Qantas’ brand damage is getting worse

Australian Financial Review: HotCopper owner to drive away with Gumtree, Carsguide

Australian Financial Review: Seven and Catalano join forces on real estate venture

SMH / The Age: Push for key interstate AFL games to go behind Foxtel paywall

Mail Online: The job where beginners with 'NO prior experience' are being paid six-figure salaries – and you can even work from home

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s topics:

Foxtel anti-siphoning push

Lachlan Murdoch calls in the lawyers

AFL talks TV rights

Former Enero research companies on the block

As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

SMH / The Age: ‘Stuck in time warp’: Foxtel boss unloads on outdated regulation

Australian Financial Review: Foxtel prepares a push for content from US studio giant

Unmade: How real estate is carrying News Corp while Binge fades

SMH / The Age: Lachlan Murdoch sends legal threat to Crikey over January 6 article

The Australian: Crunch time for AFL TV rights deal

Nine: OzTam ratings analysis

Australian Financial Review: Mercury Capital puts FiftyFive5 in play, E&P researches buyers

Unmade: Hello from the holdcos

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week.

Today’s topics:

Politicians target fast food marketing to kids

TV ad revenue shifts to streaming

Blockbuster AFL rights bid goes missing

Seven’s Commonwealth Games win

A big week in TV launches

TikTok’s Aussie income revealed

Meta goes missing in action. Again.

John Sintras’s new gig

Why bosses want everyone back in the office

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

SMH / The Age: GP-turned-MP to demand action on junk food advertising

The Australian: Ten’s AFL rights bid falls flat

SMH / The Age: ‘Plucked from thin air’: Paramount plays down AFL bid, eyes future deals

Mumbrella: Birmingham 2022 Commonwealth Games brings in over 10M viewers for Seven in first week

Nine: Weekly Oztam analysis

Australian Financial Review: TikTok Australia revenue surges as Facebook rivalry heats up

SMH / The Age: Meta missing in action at crucial Treasury talks

Mumbrella: Mutiny appoints John Sintras to lead US expansion

Unmade: Saying out loud the quiet bit about work-life balance

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s topics:

AFL TV rights bids land

How long will radio’s recovery take?

Ooh Media gets closer to News Corp

Streaming subs slowdown

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

Sydney Morning Herald: Game on: Bids roll in for multi-billion dollar AFL deal

The Australian: Radio advertising market remains in recovery phase, says SCA boss Grant Blackley

Unmade: What we learned from Listnr yesterday

The Australian: News Corp Australia joins with oOh!media to spread the news further

Australian Financial Review: ‘The city’s full’: QMS Media shrugs off work-from-home orders

Australian Financial Review: Cost of living starts to bite subscription streaming

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week.

Today’s topics:

Ten’s ratings recovery

Will the fading ad market hurt the AFL rights deal?

Does adland have room for the introverts?

Signals from results season

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

The Australian: English Premier League soccer friendly fails to fix Network Ten’s ratings woes

Weekly Oztam chart / via Nine:

The Australian: The Lisa Wilkinson soap opera continues

The Australian: AFL kicks own goal in TV broadcasting rights bid

The Australian: Diversity is a superpower, it’s time we create space for it

Unmade: Sorrell is a unicorn no longer

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

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In today’s episode of The Unmakers, we talk to Troy Townsend and Jack Byrne, co-founders of Zitcha.

Zitcha thinks of itself as a demand side platform for retailers, allowing them to use their owned assets to become publishers of brand messages.

The duo have a strong media pedigree - Troy is a former boss of digital agency Tiger Pistol and Jack is managing director of independent media agency Hatched.

In the week that Woolworths’ Cartology announced the $150m acquisition of Shopper Media, we discussed the fast growing retail media space, and the growing influence of Amazon.

I also asked whether Zitcha is a friend or a threat to media agencies.

Over the coming months they plan to take Zitcha global. The duo revealed Zitcha is currently in the final stages of a seed round capital raising, with Troy revealing how potential investors can get in touch.

Transcript:

Tim Burrowes:

In today's episode of the Unmakers, I talked to Jack Byrne and Troy Townsend, the co-founders of Zitcha. Zitcha thinks of itself as a DSP, or demand side platform, for the retail world. It helps retailers turn their own assets, including online and in store, into publishing platforms, by connecting them to brand messages. Troy, the CEO of Zitcha, was previously boss of digital platform Tiger Pistol before selling the business. Jack's day job is as managing director of independent media agency Hatched. Having got off the ground in Australia, Zitcha is now doing a seed stage capital raising to go global. To begin with, I asked Troy how the two of them came to be working together.

Troy Townsend:

It's a really good question. It's happened over quite a few years, Tim. So obviously Jack has built his media business, Hatched, over the last 10 years. And over the last 10 years, I've built a business called Tiger Pistol. And through that journey, we've had shared clients and got closer through clients and we've sort of started to see the retail media space sort of start to come into play. And both of us looking at how this space could affect our businesses. And about three years ago, I sold out of Tiger Pistol and me and Jack sort of started to work through where there was some opportunities. So it's been a long journey.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, look, it's worth mentioning Tiger Pistol, because that was one of the, I guess the big names in the first digital wave. What was the Tiger Pistol story briefly for people who don't know?

Troy Townsend:

So Tiger Pistol was a platform that basically helped automate the process of building Facebook ads for big channel partners globally. So we sort of took the journey of working really closely with Facebook or as they're called Meta now and basically helped them grow their long tail, big channel partners, automating the process of ads for SMBs. So we sold out that business about three years ago. So we sold it to private equity in the US.

Tim Burrowes:

So Jack, you have had sort of the parallel journey and with Hatched as well. What brought you to this point?

Jack Byrne:

Well, obviously what I've seen over the last 10 years and the environmental issues such as the proliferation of data and what I've seen in the programmatic perspective, in the ad tech and some of the dirty tactics that comes with that as well, there's also, you've seen the development of the Cartology and the first party data is ultimately where it's closest to the customer. And as a media agency, we spend all of our time and effort getting as close to the customer as we can. When retail media started becoming a thing, and it's always been a thing. It's probably important to note that retail media in its form, whether it's a shelf warbler or decals on the floor, this is not new, but certainly targeting that customer and closing the loop from a media perspective all the way through to the point of sale is something that's always been of interest mainly because we've had clients, whether it's retailers themselves, or suppliers of those retailers wanting to drive incremental sales, then that's always been our job.

Jack Byrne:

So it's always been keen for us because at Hatched, we've always wanted to act as agents of positive change is kind of our vision of the business. And this is something that really came out of that. And a few conversations with Troy and I've always enjoyed working with Troy, but also really admired the way his mind works and the way that the world's working and the technology and whatnot. And it's something that we came together and not to say it wasn't over a couple of beers, but it was over a couple of beers and a few more. And it's grown since.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, we'll get into the product in a moment. So, Zitcha officially launched back in June. It has its roots in another product called TP Collab. So what was the evolution from there to here then, Troy?

Troy Townsend:

When we sold Tiger Pistol three years ago, we sold our technology platform. But over the 11 years of building Tiger Pistol, we also built quite a large service business. And in the exit of focusing on one piece of technology, we incubated this product in TP and we called it TP Collab. And we sort of had a really good bit of time to relook at the market. Moving out of ad tech. Ad tech in its entirety is totally shifting, the landscape is shifting. Obviously with the environmental impacts of privacy legislation and deprecation of cookies, we sort of had the beauty of being able to look at a fresh sheet of paper and see where it was going. And this really came out of that.

Troy Townsend:

And we obviously done a lot of work with Facebook through the journey. We've done a lot of work with Google through the journey. And this space was something that they're both looking at quite closely, obviously, because it's directly connected to a lot of first party data. And so we incubated for the first 12 months, we just built and we sort of tried to build a product market fit. We were lucky enough to get a couple of early adopting retailers as alpha partners and really got into the cycle of them trying to work through this space and work out what they need to do in this space to be successful. And then we uncovered something that was even bigger than I first thought.

Troy Townsend:

And with the likely changes that happened to iOS 14 and the amount of signal data that the big platforms like Meta were receiving, it sort of just started to really put a fire under this space. And obviously we had competitors in the space that were only really focused on owned assets for retailers like Citrus getting acquired. There was quite a few environmental factors that really blew up the opportunity as we were incubating it within that TP environment.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, we'll come on to the sort of the partners in a moment and the competitors as well. Let's drill down a bit now. Let's actually talk about, I guess the key thing is, what problem are you actually trying to solve?

Troy Townsend:

So the problem that we're trying to solve is we're trying to... Basically with the changing landscape of media, brands need to be able to buy media that they can basically, their performance media that they can track conversion through. And you've got the likes of Amazon who globally made 31 billion as an ad platform last year, basically off the back of being able to track transactions and conversions. So they're a closed looped media business, which is absolutely valuable. And it's something a lot of the major publish publishers actually can't do. And you sort of start to see that and you start to see the evolution of some really big retailers, particularly you see it here with Cartology and Kohl's and Chemist Warehouse, but you also see in the US with the likes of Walmart and Kroger and Albertsons that are building their own retail media networks and making some serious headway to be able to compete in this media space with the likes of Amazon. So I think when we look at what are we actually solving in this space is we're making it super easy for retailers to turn into intermediate publishers, number one. That's the critical mission that we're on. And we're also making it really easy for brands to access inventory that they have never been able to access in the past.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, which is a great moment then I suppose to firstly, maybe give us some examples where you're allowed to talk about them, about some retail brands and supplies you've got on board. And maybe just give me a practical example or two of how in this new environment a message might reach a consumer in a way it wouldn't have done before.

Troy Townsend:

Yeah, well I think, I mean, we're moving into the age of real personalization. And I mean, I've talked about personalization through the last 10 years of my journey, but this is really, really exciting, number one, for a brand. Being able to access a cohort of users that buy their product or similar products of theirs through retailers to be able to directly come in contact with them.

Tim Burrowes:

So give me a sort of example of the sort of brand you're thinking of.

Troy Townsend:

Yeah. So, so let's talk about Diageo as an example. So Diageo have spent money with their retailers. We can look at the likes of, let's use Thirsty Camel as an example. Now they've got trade contracts in place with those guys. They've typically bought media through traditional realms, like they've bought in store wobblers, they've bought catalog. Really catalog was sort of 1.0 of retail media. And now what you're seeing is this transition to them starting to buy digital assets. So they're actually going on and buying keywords like they would on Google on Thirsty Camel's website, which in turn then when someone comes in to type in a certain craft beer, for example, that craft beer is giving them first slot on the products that actually surface within their transition to buy. So really what we're starting to see is that brands are being able to access inventory as close to the point of purchase than they've ever been able to access in the past, which is obviously really valuable for the brand.

Troy Townsend:

And then you've got the retailers that already have those assets in place. They already have the ability to search on their website. They have the ability to surface products, but they're actually giving the retail the ability to monetize that. So they can not only drive a better customer experience, but they can also start to create a new revenue stream to be able to compete against the likes of an Amazon, for example. So I think that's the really exciting bit of this space is it's a win, win, win. So it's a win for the brand because the brand actually gets to advertise to the specific audience at the point of purchase and be able to track to conversion. Number two for the retailer, it's super exciting because they now have the ability to really change the media landscape and change the way they do business to be able to compete against an Amazon of the world that they haven't been able to compete against in the past.

Troy Townsend:

And three for the consumer, I think this space really drives personalization. So when the consumer is browsing on a website or getting an EDM or looking at content across Facebook or across Google, they're getting a purely personalized experience to deliver an ad that is highly optimized for them as an individual, which I think the likes of Facebook and Google have done this really, really well over the last 10 years. And I think this is going to be the next iteration of personalization that comes through through the media landscape.

Jack Byrne:

Just to add to that point, I think there's another win in there. Obviously we spoke about the win from a brand or win from the consumer, win from the retailer, but there's also a win for the media and the platforms that particularly for Zitcha that we've identified that from a media supplier or a wall garden and a retailer, we consider as a publisher, but there's the ability to transact. And that transaction, the ease to transact within the ecosystem's really important. So ultimately if you can tie that transaction to an actual physical transaction in store or online, then it's more accountable media and more attribution towards media, and that's better for everyone as well.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, you both touched on that accountability or sort of measurement point, which is probably just worth exploring a bit more. So what data or information or signals are you able to give a brand that wouldn't have been possible before?

Troy Townsend:

Number one, the signals that they're being able to see is they're going to be able to see the signals from the individual retailers customers. So most brands that don't have a direct to customer approach have never really been able to use any of the real data of understanding the retailers customers, but this, number one, gives them access to be able to use that, which in turn gives them better opportunity to spend, number one, across the retailers, what we classify their own assets. So the assets that they own internally. So website, email, in store screens, all of these things that they haven't ever had access to in the past. But it also gives them access to utilize those audiences across Meta. So Facebook and Instagram, Google YouTube, Pinterest, Snap, TikTok. So think about all these wall gardens that are really built off the back of having strong cohorts and strong first party to be able to get the best out of them. These brands now have access to be able to utilize that through their retailers.

Tim Burrowes:

And the brands and presumably retailers as well are obviously very sensitive about their own data. How do you make them comfortable that you are also protecting their data at the same time?

Troy Townsend:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a huge one. I think a lot of retailers at the moment are sort of working around, like how do they build a retail network? How do they make sure that they're protecting their first party and the data that they have to not only differentiate them to other retailers, but also to make sure that they've got maximum value and they've got maximum control. So, we built Zitcha with a view of really building for the retailer, making sure that we're helping them structure their data, but we're not actually touching the data that they're sitting on. And also the brands are not able to take their data and use it for other things. It's all very structured and connected in a way that they can utilize the data as they build their ad units, but there's no sharing of data outside of that.

Troy Townsend:

So, I think a big part that we're seeing now is retailers want to be in control of and feel really comfortable and confident in this space. And that's one thing that we've made sure is happening is to make sure that they're in full control of the data that they have and who they share that data with as well. So that can be very specific on certain cohorts they have to certain brands that get to utilize that. Not everyone gets to utilize that. Really sort of helping them sort of really control not only the surfaces that they want to sell, but also how they utilize the data that connects with those surfaces.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, Jack, let me bring you in a bit as well. Maybe let's just talk a bit of an overview of the sector itself, sort of retail media. One of the kind of announcements we've seen shortly before we record this is Woolworth's or Cartology, which is their kind of retail shopper arm, buying shopper media for a headline of $150 million. So there's a lot going on in the sector generally. What do you see as the key developments? What's been driving this market in the last few years?

Jack Byrne:

Being closest to the customer is the job for every marketing manager or agency globally, right? So once the retailer in question identifies that and invests in that, whether it's building the cohorts and what we are seeing from a retailer perspective, the really good ones are spending the time and money and resources in actually building out their data sets first. Because understanding the cohorts within the retailer element, you are able to put different values on the different cohorts. And the ones that are doing really well will benefit the most. So that's what we are seeing the first and foremost. The likes of what Cartology has done, really smart move from their perspective, in my view. It adds another part to their ecosystem that they can sell against. Owning that asset, selling that asset at a 90% margin. The payback on that investment will be pretty quick, I'd imagine.

Jack Byrne:

So again, really, it's a big deal in our landscape. Payback is fabulous. And from our perspective, again, we totally support it because it got to a point that when Cartology launched back in 2019, I know from a Hatched perspective, and we've got FMCG clients, then generally what we saw is the likes of a Cartology and whatnot, they're the first ones to go on a media schedule. They're the first ones, because it's a no brainer that you want to target the customers close to the point of sale. But there were still challenges. And the challenges that we saw with that is from an operational perspective, because a lot of it's still very manual. It's still very closed to agencies whereby the predominantly what we are seeing is retailer and supplier having their trade marketing budgets being tied into their overall contracts. And then actually what's happening at the retailers end, it's all a manual programming of YouTube, manual all of that is very high touch from resourcing, from human beings, and otherwise.

Jack Byrne:

And one of the problems that we're trying to solve is that operational side of things. Going, okay, you max out inventory really quickly and you max out capacity really quickly based on the fact that it's human led. So where Zitcha comes into it is really by adding in an ecosystem play across the likes of Meta and Google and YouTube, which is all built in, then A- the inventory's unlimited. And then also from a human perspective, they can start talking to the long tail of suppliers whereby previously they're probably, they're monetizing say 20% of their customer base or their supply base until they max out their inventory and their capacity. So what we are doing is providing these retailers with a long list of suppliers, the ability to actually access a hundred percent of them and monetize a hundred percent of them and maximize the opportunity for them. So that's what we're seeing.

Tim Burrowes:

Okay. Now, just before we drill a bit more into your business model, Troy, something I wanted to just come back to that you mentioned earlier, Amazon. Something like $31 billion around the world as a retail media outlet, as an advertising outlet effectively, yet my sense is in Australia they haven't had the same level of impact. Firstly, I suppose I'll be curious whether you agree with that. But secondly, I wonder if you do, if you have a feeling on why that is?

Troy Townsend:

Yeah. I mean, I don't have the direct numbers in front of me, but they are definitely making an impact year on year here in Australia. They're definitely growing quite rapidly. I think that the $31 billion is a big number and obviously we're only, Australia's only a very small part of that from an opportunity perspective as well. But, I think what you'll find is that they're going to, they're picking up steam quite rapidly. I mean, I think their entrance into the market was a bit slower than what everyone first thought they were going to be. But I feel like they are slowly, but surely, and slowly, but surely is probably not the right word. I think they're creeping up on everyone. And I think that we are going to start sort of start to see the impact of that, which we're starting to see on the flip side of Amazon. I think, I think retailers are really starting to see them as a clear competitive threat, which they've talked about for years, ever since they sort of came into the Australian market. But I think definitely now they're looking at how do they really combat against them as a business.

Tim Burrowes:

Okay. Well, we've talked a bit about how you solve the problem for the industry, which obviously is a service. I guess the other part of the equation is in order for you to be around, you've got to make a dollar. Should I crudely think of you as an ad network? Is that really the method that you make your money?

Troy Townsend:

Yeah, I mean, I think we are, like at DSP for retailers basically. So we make it very simple for them to bring their inventory to market and deliver that inventory to specific suppliers and specific brands. So that is probably how you would look at it. I think in the stage that we're in within the market is retailers bringing their inventory to market. I see in the US, these things starting to come where there's multiple retail media networks coming to market with individual retailers where brands are going well, how am I comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges? And I think you're going to start to see a bit more, which we're starting to look at is like aggregation of how do we make it really simple to buy across multiple retailers.

Troy Townsend:

So I think the big piece is making it very simple on both sides. Being on the retailer side to bring their assets and control the inventory that they have. And I think, to Jack's point earlier around Cartology, the purchase of is really they're buying more inventory, they're buying a broader subset. So, as a brand, makes the Cartology model a lot more appealing when I can buy in store, I can buy on online, I can buy sort of their digital out of home as well. So, I think these guys are really starting to ramp up the fact that they're media businesses and adding value into the brands. And I think from our perspective is, in Australia as we start to see more networks come to market, that's going to be one thing, but making this space uncomplicated is going to be a very, very big unique offering in market. Because I think, in the US, I was in the US last week at a retail media conference. And they just talked about how this space can be overly complicated from a brand perspective. And I think there's a job to be done as the space really grows to make it really easy for everyone to be able to use and spend and continue to spend in the space.

Tim Burrowes:

And just drilling a bit more into the business model. So effectively you clip the ticket of each placement, that's your main business model.

Troy Townsend:

That's correct. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. We take a percentage of the media.

Tim Burrowes:

And those are on standard terms?

Troy Townsend:

Yeah. So we take a clip of the media that goes through the platform. So it makes it really, I mean, it's an easy one for most retailers to understand. They can work out what margin they're going to make. And it's a nice, simple transaction. And it is on standard terms with the retailer. That's where we set up the model. We're not directly with the brand.

Tim Burrowes:

And what are those terms? What percentage clip is yours?

Troy Townsend:

So varies based on the size of the media. So it can be anywhere from 10% down to 4% depending on where it plays.

Tim Burrowes:

Okay. Now let me bring Jack back in, because I think this is a good one for where you span the two worlds of media agencies as well. I'm sort of wondering whether Zitcha is a friend or potential foe for agencies and that's a question partly inspired by a guest post I recently read in Avenues from Troy. I'll read out the headline for our audience. Headline is, "Retail media could provide your agency new revenue stream", but then it's the second part of the headline which intrigues me, "or could cut your lunch". And then the final line of the piece from Troy is again making that similar argument, "All this ultimately means more billable time. And isn't it better if clients on both sides talk to you rather than going direct to the retailers and cutting you out of the action". Now that sounds like...

Jack Byrne:

Very controversial don't you think, Troy?

Tim Burrowes:

Yeah. I'm intrigued by it, because it does sound like a bit of a mixed message to media agencies that maybe you are going to be taking a slice of the action away from them.

Jack Byrne:

Yeah, sure. Well, I'll take this obviously with the media agency background, because it's something that the whole world of retail media, if I was to be frank, scared the s**t out of me. As an agency model where we are a service based business in the service based industry where FMCG clients and suppliers of retailers, where's the value that a agency can provide to ensure that our existence is there in the first place. But ultimately there's two ways to go about it. Is accepting that fact or from an agency perspective and something that we're really leaning into at Hatched is embracing it and building out services that surround it. Because as Troy alluded to it earlier, the retail media space is growing rapidly. We're still very much in the infancy. And it's the retailers themselves aren't yet quite organized to, you see the Cartology, you see Coles media. In Australia, it's very easy to kind of get blinded by that. But if you look at tier two, tier threes, even other retailers in the tier one space, you've got the merge teams and you've got the marketing teams, but no one really owns the media teams.

Jack Byrne:

And then the same from an agency space, what can you add value? And ultimately what's going to happen once all of these retailers get organized and have retail media platforms and retail media networks to buy into, then you got to flip your head into the brand's perspective and go, well, where do I get the best return? And it goes back to the genesis of a media agency in the first place is helping the clients navigate a tricky landscape. Brands are, they know the retail media space, they value the retail media space, but they might not know how to navigate the retail media space.

Jack Byrne:

And ultimately, one thing that you'll see Hatched doing is really delving deep into not only Zitcha, but the likes of Amazon. Amazon is coming and you'd be stupid to think that they're not coming. They have been here for a while. They are growing year on year, month on month, but it's a lot of suppliers don't know how to navigate them. So it's understanding that as a view will give you an idea as to where the benefit is from an agency perspective, because there are services and requirements to wrap around the proliferation of the technology that will ultimately either benefit you or you let someone else do it. And you look at the Publicis acquisition of Citrus last year. They paid $205 million for a platform and they've wrapped it into their Epsilon product. And all of a sudden Epsilon Publicis they've got a strong point of difference within the marketplace that can talk to retailers and supplies alike.

Jack Byrne:

Now you've got no one else left to buy and it's not to say that we'll be sold or bought or even were for sale for any of the agency networks, but we can certainly work with them. And that's the interesting part.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, I'm amused by it, as soon as you started saying you weren't for sale, a big smile came onto Troy's face. Because we can see each other on video, although this is only an audio podcast, which I suppose is a good point for me to sort of raise that question to Troy or to both of you is I guess one of the points of The Unmakers podcast is yes, we're talking about industry models useful to the industry. And I think maybe we also have an audience of people, I hope we do, who are interested investing in new things as well. And I presume that once you have an idea like this, in order to scale, it takes investment. So I'm wondering, Troy, what you see as the barriers to scaling or where you need to invest. I mean, the thing that occurred to me obviously was it feels like you'd need a sales force and if you're going to go global, that means a global sales force.

Troy Townsend:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely I think like any tech business, you need to invest in the product, the R and D and your sales team and your marketing. So, we've got it to a point where we've been in a great position to be able to self-funded to today. But we definitely understand that to scale and grow fast, this opportunity is time sensitive and that takes capital. So yeah, we are definitely in the process of capital raising at the moment for the business. So hopefully we'll close that off pretty shortly. But definitely this business is set to grow outside of the geography of Australia and New Zealand. And we definitely have a global first mindset and we're being very focused on understanding where this space is moving in different markets, bigger markets in Australia, Southeast Asia, the US, Europe, South America. Like this space is at its infancy across all of those markets with not a heap of competitive pressure right now. I would think that competitive pressure will come over time. And I think the next sort of 12 to 24 months is going to be really critical for us to get our position in market and get the opportunity moving.

Tim Burrowes:

And this round of capital raising. Are you still open to more conversations? Are you closing off the conversations you are having?

Troy Townsend:

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, we're pretty close to closing off this round, but I think capital raising is something that lasts the length of your business. So we're at sort of what we would classify as seed and we'll do a series A and we'll sort of see where the business moves. There's a huge opportunity. If you look at this globally, this is a hundred, BDC say it's a $100 billion opportunity. I think it's bigger than that. And for us, it's about how do we really capitalize on that opportunity as quickly as possible. So definitely anyone that is that's looking to invest in this space, we're definitely open for conversations over the full journey of the business, to be honest.

Tim Burrowes:

And how do they reach you?

Troy Townsend:

I mean, they can send me an email at troy@zitcha.com if they want to reach out or it's at jack@zitcha.com.

Tim Burrowes:

Z-I-T-C-H-A.

Troy Townsend:

Z-I-T-C-H-A.com. Yep. That's right. Yep.

Tim Burrowes:

And I guess typically for seed, you might look at raising half a million dollars or something. Is that the sort of number you are looking to?

Troy Townsend:

No, it's quite a ways north of half a million. We've funded it to a point where seed is based on, it's going to be the first layer of investment in the business, but we've built the business to not a bad size. So we're not really early, but we're still early within the journey of the opportunity.

Jack Byrne:

Yeah. And just to add to that, I mean, we've already put a couple of mill into this to build it. And we can continue to self fund it now. And we expect to be profitable pretty quickly, like within the next 12 months. So a tech business to be profitable is quite rare in these days, but it's also what's rising through the cream and the blood birth that is out there. But we are choosing to do a raise now because of the land grab and because of the opportunity that comes with a platform that's been in development for two years. It's got revenue, it's got media going through the platform. And really it's a chance for us in the next 12 to 18 months to really build a moat around us and get the runs on the board and go hard.

Jack Byrne:

And that international markets is really important to us because it's very easy to get caught up in the worlds of what we see in Australia being the Cartology and the Kohl's meter and be blinded by two small parties. But you look at other markets where in the US for instance, the size of a Kohl's is, there's 50 Kohl's and that's just on the Eastern sea, and so we've got to be smart about where we put our time in the next 12 months, not just our resources.

Tim Burrowes:

Now you make a good point, Jack, on the tech valuations blood bath. There's been a fair bit reported recently that valuations for investment rounds are kind of down as a result. What valuation have you put on the business?

Jack Byrne:

We haven't got to valuation at the moment. The template or the mode that we are going is more in a note, but that will depend on who we're getting involved in at the end. At the moment, we're just rallying up all interested parties to come to the table, to work out who the best are for us. And it's important that point is delivered that ultimately we need, we want our partners to really lean into the opportunity and really open up opportunities, not only locally, but internationally as well. The instrument that we're using will be determined by the people that are at the table by the end of it. Now, we could easily oversubscribe at the moment. Again, we're being smarter, we're in no rush to be able to take on investment. And at 50/50, our cap table is pretty clean with Troy and I, and it's something that we value our independence and we value being able to make the decisions that are best for staff and the best for clients. And that independence is something that we value highly because it's ultimately what will determine our success in the future. So that's something that we'll continue to do.

Tim Burrowes:

And that sounds presumably then that you're not really talking kind of the traditional kind of venture capital type investment, necessarily. If that's the route you're going. What sort of people have invested?

Jack Byrne:

Well at the moment, just Troy and I are the ones that have invested. But we are talking to venture capital. There's a lot of interest in this space. So we are not closing the door to anyone because some venture capitals have people that invest in their funds that are well off in the retail media space or the retail space. Or they might have access to markets that we aren't in yet. It's really, it's open to anyone. And it's a two way conversation. We're just not taking the money and running with it. It's not money that we need. It's more partners and someone that we want to work with. That's something that Troy and I, we've been in the game long enough to go, there's plenty of money if you ask for it. It's just the right money. And that's what we are being mindful of at the moment, is taking the right money from the right partners and going from there.

Tim Burrowes:

And clearly where partners invest, they also at least want a sense of what their possible exit options are. Obviously, we talked about the likes of Citrus being picked up by a global holding company. What are the potential route for you down the track, do you think?

Troy Townsend:

Yeah, so I think the critical thing that we're looking at is building a really successful, sustainable business being the first point. But I think really this space is, trade sale is one thing similar to Citrus. But this space is big enough for IPO. There's real opportunity. And we sort of see this base being independent and really driving that independence. Sky's the limit. We're right at the very start of something that I think is going to be very large. It'll just be, it'll be interesting to see how the different opportunity of different people that are probably looking to acquire or get something in this space changes over the next sort of 2, 3, 4 years. I think strategics are definitely keen in this space.

Troy Townsend:

How do they catch up quickly and how do they buy into this space or buy some technology? You're obviously seeing the big media networks, there're either looking at building or buying in this space as well, to even the big publishers. The Googles and the Facebooks of the world are going to obviously have a keen eye on where this space goes and how it plays out. So, I think it's going to be an interesting journey as we move through it.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, final question for me. If we check in again in a year's time, where will the business be at?

Troy Townsend:

In a year's time, I think, I mean, definitely we are going to be in multi market business. We've sort of had the ability to incubate in this space in Australia and New Zealand, but definitely we'll be in multiple markets outside of this space. I think we should be at the process of the space being sort of further progressed. And obviously from our perspective, having a lot more retailers connected in, but really we want to get to the space of being really focused on driving great brand experiences and fully automating the media mix modeling of this space to sort of really differentiate against anyone else in the market. So, 12 months is a long time, but it goes quickly when you're trying to you build and grow.

Tim Burrowes:

And Jack, let me bring you in as well, because I presume for you, you'll have to decide at some point if this rocket ship takes off, then you are going to have to step away from Hatched don't you?

Jack Byrne:

Well, luckily I've got very good staff in both organizations to carry me, because I'm just a squirrel trying to get a nut. But the one thing that I will add to Troy's point in the next 12 months is we, the world talks of retail media, but we don't talk just to retailers. Anyone that has first party data that is of value and has assets, and that asset could be digital screens in multiple venues. It could be an e-com, it could be a whole bunch of different. It could be an email database that could be worth monetizing. We are currently talking to adjacent industries and adjacent businesses to empower them the same way that we are doing with retailers. So within the next 12 months, you'll start seeing this breakout a little bit more beyond just retailers and that's what is really exciting because then you can start creating networks and like minded networks that are all attached to data that is built in similar structures and whatnot, and getting closer to the point of sale. That's really exciting to me in terms of building into green fields that people aren't really talking to. But that's certainly where our view is in the next 12 months, you'll start seeing a bit of that too.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, we'll check in and see. Troy and Jack, thank you very much for your time.

Jack Byrne:

Thanks for having us.

Troy Townsend:

Thanks Tim.

Tim Burrowes:

Thanks for listening to the Unmakers from Unmade. If you are an Unmaker, I'd love to talk to you. Email me, Tim@unmade.media.

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s topics:

AFL rights go to the wire

As video streaming disaggregates, piracy returns

Streaming revenue overtakes TV advertising

Will Nine’s newspaper journos strike?

Aussie startup aims to be the next WordPress

Adland’s inclusivity problem

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

The Australian: Live matches in focus as AFL TV rights deal comes down to the wire

Sydney Morning Herald: Netflix’s next challenge: piracy is back

The Australian: Australians spending a record amount on media and entertainment, PwC report shows

The Australian: Nine Publishing staff to vote on protected industrial action as pay fight heats up

The Australian: Smith ‘counselled’ by 2GB after Hadley attack

Australian Financial Review: WordPress rival raises $500,000 in seed funding

Australian Financial Review: ‘Like an accountant’: Businesses urged to audit digital marketing

Unmade: Adland is a cosy club for some; why do so many want to leave?

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week.

Today’s topics:

Will Kyrgios’s Wimbledon run boost the value of the Tennis Australia rights?

Elon Musk pulls the plug on Twitter

Does Australia have a PR shortage?

Antony Catalano’s next real estate publishing move

More ructions at the Judith Neilson Institute

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

The Australian: Australian Open TV rights to soar due to Nick Kyrgios factor

Wall Street Journal: Elon Musk Seeks to Abandon $44 Billion Twitter Deal

Australian Financial Review: ‘Can’t keep up’: PR industry wants to import foreign flacks

SMH / The Age: Local media companies inject cash into Catalano’s new real-estate play

SMH / The Age: More exits at embattled journalism institute as it pauses international programs

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In today’s episode of The Unmakers, Tim Burrowes talks to Austin Mackell, CEO of Write In Stone.

A foreign correspondent for much of his career, Austin now leads a team building the Stone transparency platform.

The platform allows journalists to capture every stage of their research so that readers can see how an article was put together.

Write In Stone is seeking investment of around half a million dollars, valuing the company at $5m. As you’ll hear, the conversation takes an unexpected turn when Mackell informs me: “F**k the investors.” Later, he explains what he means by that.

Below is the full transcript of the interview. Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio.

Transcript: Austin Mackell of Write In Stone

Tim Burrowes: What problem are you trying to solve?

Austin Mackell: Trust. The crisis of trust in the public sphere in journalism. And sometimes I say fake news and I kind of think the two things are flip sides of the same coin. It's about the problem is directing news, consumers towards reliable news. And there's a lot of people worried about this problem. And I think we've got a pretty unique approach to it.

Tim Burrowes: So, how are you solving the problem?

Austin Mackell: Well, our slogan is “research is valuable, make it visible”. And we mean that quite literally. Make the actual research process that goes into the story visible using video. So, the sort of two taglines are trust through transparency and video without the pivot. And I guess the key word in terms of execution is picture in picture video. So, you could call it Twitch for journalists. I think that kind of gives you an idea, might give you the wrong idea. I mean, you've seen the product, you've seen some of our stories by our pioneering user, Scott. How would you describe it to me? Because I've told so many people so many times, I sometimes feel like I'm talking nonsense. You tell me what our product does. You've seen it.

Tim Burrowes: One of the privileges I think when you're chatting to people are very early in the stages of a startup as they're still evolving their pattern. One of the things that's worth emphasising is that although you use video to capture the process, the journalist has gone through in their research, It's not as if this is something for video bloggers. It's for traditional journalists, but it's a way of them showing their workings.

Austin Mackell: Yes, exactly. Our ideal journalist is someone who's writing text content for a WordPress blog or a Medium blog. They're doing straight to norm standard story writing like for a newspaper, but online. And they're curious about video. Maybe. But they're doing research. They're spending time checking their facts and making sure that the information that they're reporting is correct. And we track that process and allow you to market that as a point of difference is sort of the key offering. And that was actually the idea before video. Video was a means to that end. And then we realized, oh, wait a minute. People what? People like video, don't they? People want video in their content. If we can get free video that's a good thing too.

And the two kind of ... So, you've got the high notes and the low notes, as I like to say. There's like we say, video without the pivot. There's this immediate sort of benefit of you get this free video component to your story, which we'll talk louder about how you can tap into that value. But you also get this brand prestige that you build and a personal connection. People are seeing the journalist’S face. They're seeing what's on the journalist screen. It's sort of hard ... It's like brute force empathy. And you're going to see, like if you see Scott's stories there's hundreds of minutes. We're still measuring in minutes. Minutes of research time. And the bit where you turn your webcam on, by the way, the bit where you turn your webcam on and you explaining what's on your screen, which we call the highlights. That doesn't count towards your research time.

It's only the bit where we're sort of capturing the time lapse. That's one screenshot every second. That's what we measure in research duration. So, you know how medium has a read time. You can imagine in the future, once people are sort of accustomed to this system, you can imagine people discussing research depth. And I imagine that would be the time someone spent researching it versus the time to consume the media. If you're going to ask-

Tim Burrowes: And the idea is that as a journalist is researching an article, they use the software to capture, okay, they're looking at this document. Here's what they do. They talk to the camera, explain what they're doing. They've just made some notes or something, or they've just found a report. Here's the bit in the report. So, the video captures the various moments rather than being something they just shoot at the end of the project?

Austin Mackell: Absolutely. Right. It's a ride along. And we want you to show the audience the actual process. Now it's possible that you can record all of your research first, and then we might add a presentation mode or something. But we're very nervous about that because there's a lot of programs for people to just talk at a webcam, right? We're not just a Zoom competitor. We're not a video product. We are a trust platform. And video is a powerful tool to build trust, but it's not the only one we're going to use.

Tim Burrowes: And to talk about in startup parlance, the use case. You've touched on Scott, which is Scott Stegman, founder of Forensic News. So, how is he using it?

Austin Mackell: Well, exactly as described. Now, I actually had, or have, more like had now a network in journalism of people I knew from years. And then I could have went into the bunker and did dev for a long time and then came back up and pitched everybody. And it wasn't any of them that was our first user. I got Scott via cold Twitter DM from a brand spanking new account I set up. I said, "This is the product. This is the idea." And he said, "Holy s**t, I love it." And now we're best friends. Well, shouldn't put words in his mouth, but he immediately said, "This is a great idea." And it wasn't about how I pitched it. It wasn't about the network. He immediately understood the core concept, used it exactly the way we'd imagined it, which is what you're not meant to get in startups.

You're not meant to have people use it the way you imagine it. But he already had a philosophy because he'd actually interned with law enforcement before doing journalism. And his philosophy was “I will not write a story unless there is at least one piece of evidence, which I would present to court without being embarrassed”. There's got to be something here that would be admissible in court. And that's got to be the core of what the story is written about. So, he already had that philosophy and he was already doing really well. He was already rocketing, already doing ... He's 25 years old and he's got his own publication and he's going to be testifying before Congress. And he's a rock star, this guy. And he already had that philosophy. So, it plugged right in. And I think what we're betting on is that's what the next generation of journalism will look like. Especially at the high end, at the premium end of the spectrum.

Tim Burrowes: And one of the attractions for Forensic News and Scott is that it's funded through reader donations. So, he would see this as a tool for increasing that reader trust.

Austin Mackell: Yeah, absolutely. Well increased donations to Patreon is both a product of, we get it both ways, by building trust. People go, “Oh wow, I trust this guy. He's making himself accountable to me. He's not telling me he's just shut up and trust me because I'm the expert and you're the player. He's saying, here's why you can trust me. I will make an account of myself and people like that.” And they're also seeing his face.

And we also allow you to record a message like a call to action, which plays along with the research where he says Scott Forensic News depends on readers like you for support, please support us on Patreon. And he has seen Patreon donations per visitor go up by about 45% in three months since he started using the tool. And we would say that is just one manifestation of the increased trust that he's engendering from his readers.

Tim Burrowes: Well, you are the CEO of the organisation. And you are a journalist by background, including several years sort of based in the middle east, but now back here in Australia. What do you think it is that qualifies you to be the person who solves this problem?

Austin Mackell: Well, I'm the person who's doing it, right? I can tell you the story of how I ended up being the person who did it, is probably the best answer I can give. Should I do that?

Tim Burrowes: Yes, please do.

Austin Mackell: Well look, as a journalist, I was never particularly successful or talented or exceptional, but I did do some work that I was proud of. I did work that I was proud of. And the stuff that I was most proud of was during the Egyptian revolution in 2011 and 2012. And I was married to an Egyptian woman and we left to move to Ecuador in 2013. And from Ecuador, from the safety of Ecuador, we watched as the gains of the revolution were reversed in, and all of that we've gone from the most hopeful time in Egypt's modern history to the most depressing and oppressive time in Egypt's modern history. And that's not me. That's can't remember if it was Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, but that's their summation. It's the most violent and oppressive time in Egypt's modern history.

And that's a hell of a modern history to pick from. We talk about it so casually, but the stuff that happens is unspeakable. The things that are done to people in Egyptian prisons. I'm not going to repeat them on your polite podcast. But it's something. And it seems insane to me how the world sort of moved on from that. And so that reversal of that hopeful moment, and that kind of got me thinking is it's like we've been really optimistic because of the Egyptian revolution about the power of new technology. And then we started to see the problems emerging. And I basically think that the core of the team me, [inaudible 00:10:51], Daniel, who's our CBDO. John who's our COO. All of them, they were all involved in a project we started then.

And all of us basically saw the fake news monster, the distrust monster a little bit ahead of everybody else who saw it in 2016 through the election of Donald Trump and the media warscape that we now inhabit. So, Egypt was a warning about that no one headed, except the people who were quite close to it. And so there was a movement called Rebel Tamarod. Which has basically stopped the steal, except they won. And they convinced us with the army and the US, they put the elected president in jail. I'll stop going on about Egypt. Sorry. But for me we were like, well, at this point, just writing another opinion piece, didn't feel like an adequate response.

We thought, well, what could we do that would make a difference. And a thought that I kept coming back to was the night I spent with a guy from the Wall Street Journal, the Wall Street Journal's Cairo correspondent, who my wife had also worked for as a producer and a translator and so forth. And he was a libertarian and I'm a sort of lefty through and through. And we had exactly the same take on what was going on in Egypt. And this was this strange phenomenon where the people I agreed with were from all over the political spectrum and the people who I didn't agree with were from also from all over the political spectrum. It was kind of splattering. And I realised, wait a minute, the difference is, who knows what the f**k they're talking about and who doesn't.

And that's actually a thing it's not just a matter of, I have to be a good soldier in the information war for my partisan side, which is what I will admit to having, it's a sort of Chomsky counter propagandist role that a lot of leftwing journalists take on for themselves. They're like, well, I know that the system's biased so I've got to leverage myself against that bias and balance on my toes while I ... You get the idea. So, I was like, well, how could we have directed people to better news? And the idea of transparency came forth. And it's like, well, if we set a new bibliographical standard that know what the bad faith actors can't meet, then we will begin to order and automatically exclude them. And we're thinking in terms of cultural change and website design.

So, we were like, for every story there had to be artifacts, we set up an online website. We had volunteers from ... I was very pleased we managed to get volunteers from all over the world and raise a few thousand dollars and give it a shot. But it was amateur hour. But it was a valuable experience because, so first of all, the people were interested. They clicked through, and they clicked through, on these research artefacts that we created. So, about 10% of people wanted to go past the main story and look at the process behind it, to some extent. This is without video, without any sort of polish on it at all, just links to [inaudible] files. But of course, some of the best journalism didn't actually produce this handy documentary trail.

It was people, for example, reading science journals and reporting on science. So, we had a science reporter do some stuff for us about dinosaurs. And I was like, well, how could we possibly show this? We can't republish the article. Copyright hell, right? So, it's data management and copyright hell. And at some point I realized, wait a minute, the tools don't exist to do this. And this is by 2017, then a core dynamic, the most dynamic core group of that volunteer base broke off and founded a company and said, "We've been doing it all nonprofit and so forth." And we're like, "No, we want to build a new software platform. So, we'll just start a software company like everybody else. And the only creative thing we'll do will be the software." And we'd also just before Patreon actually launched. We'd been talking about well, Patreon support. And we've then going to build that for our website.

And then Patriot came along and we were like, oh, great, well, that's half the website that we don't have to build. And then we realised, no, you don't build all of this technology for one website. You build one piece of technology for all the websites. And in 2017 founded the company. So, you say we're an early stage startup. We've been early for a long time. It's a long early, but I think we're now at the end of the beginning.

Tim Burrowes: Well, let's talk about that business model then of the company four years in, because clearly, although you are solving an important problem for democracy, I suppose. In order to thrive and exist, you need to have a business model that brings you in revenue. How are you thinking about what your business model is?

Austin Mackell: Well, look, I'm going to admit to having listened to Peter Thiel, which is something my lefty self would not have imagined…

Tim Burrowes: This is one of the ... Peter Thiel, one of the early investors in Facebook.

Austin Mackell: Yeah. And PayPal and a million other things, and Palantir. So, Palantir is his privately, it's not publicly is that it's a private company, which provides intelligence service to intelligence services with a lot of their tools. I kind of think of what we're doing is Palantir for the public. People describe the press as the intelligence agency of the public. Well we're Palantir for that intelligence agency. We're trying to build software tools for that market. But he says a line. He goes, "You've got to create X amount of value and capture Y. And X must be greater than Y." So, X in this case, the value we're creating is the video content. And when it comes to Y there's a few different ways to tap into that. We being media, we're media so, obviously, we'll be advertising. Just falls out of your mouth before you even finish the thought. Of course, we've got to have all this video, we'll put pre-roll advertising in it.

And then people would say, oh, well, the CPMs are going to go down. And we say, well, that's true, but we are going to make it cheaper than anybody else, because you're just sort of scooping up this content as you're researching. So, you've got this free video. So, whatever the CPM is, it's a win right?

Tim Burrowes: Let's dig into that one for a moment. Because I must have admit I'd probably want to be persuaded a bit more. Let's say your niche journalist gets a thousand views. Now, often that CPM is a $1 CPM. That's one dollar.

Austin Mackell: Well, Scott's making $17 per thousand person who comes to his website by leveraging the video to drive up from 12.

Tim Burrowes: Okay.

Austin Mackell: So, you know what I mean? So, to put a number on it, that's not using advertising. Right. And I think there's for some people, if you've already got a video advertising platform and some publishers we've spoken to have said, this we've already got. We've already integrated with Graycode. So, you've got to plug in with them before this is even worth us talking about, because that's how we'd make money off the video content. So, then we call Graycode and they say, yeah, well, do you have any customers yet? Because we're not going to f*g ... Pardon my language. We're not going to mess out with you. This startup that probably will never amount to anything. Do some deep tech collaboration. And you know, we sort of get locked out. But we still think we could serve them later on as a premium feature

Tim Burrowes: Before we come onto that, before we come onto ... Let's just finish the thought first on the advertising model. Because like-

Austin Mackell: It's changed a bit since you and I last spoke, right? So, like literally two months ago when you and I were talking or whenever it was, I was telling you that pre-roll advertising for a free version is going to be the main strategic focus. Because we want to have a free version. We don't want to be a tool that's only for people who can. We think that's undemocratic. So, we want to have a free version. Advertising's the easy way to do that. But it's occurred to us that there's a better way. And actually advertising, we're now thinking, and don't lock us into anything because we're an early stage company, as you say. Late, early stage. But we've got to have freedom to move. But our plan is actually, look if people want to pursue an advertising strategy, they get the premium model and they plug into Graycode and then Graycode will Google.

Or we don't get into that world. We stay one step removed from the program, world of programmatic advertising. And our free version is focused on merch. And leveraging that video to sell merch for the journalist. Because every journalist I've spoken to has Patreon get a cap. Or a book like yourself, Media Unmade, Media's Most Disruptive Decade. Not if I can help, Tim. Not if I can help it. Next decade's going to be even more disruptive. So, everyone's got a book that they want to sell. So, first highlight plays and you go, "Hey, I'm Tim and I'm going to be looking into claims of unmarked advertorial circulating in major broadsheets."

And then the next clip that plays is you saying, well, of course I rely on readers like you to support this great journalism that I'm doing, buy my book, support me on Patreon. Buy a t-shirt. And then the rest of the research plays. And when they buy a book or a t-shirt we'll handle the sale. That's the new normal model that we've just come up with that allows us to kick off and put the boat in the water, so to speak. And start trying to make money without having some, any relationship at all.

Tim Burrowes: And you would clip the ticket on that sale of whatever the piece of merchandise would be.

Austin Mackell: Yeah. Well, we would be an eCommerce business with a software development appendage sticking out from it. We become a place that sell ... The journalists are Pig Floyd. And we're the guys that follow Pig Floyd around, let the pig out of the cannon, do the light show and sell the t-shirts.

Tim Burrowes: And in this example, are you also the guys that make the t-shirts as well?

Austin Mackell: Well, that's TBD. Yes. That's the plan. The plan would be we'd print them. We'd run the print on demand. And we would function, probably with the books our plan is to partner with local bookstores. And so there, it might be more of a, we take a 20% cut or some ... Not 20%, 20 cent, I should say. Or some minuscule cut on the sale and have the independent bookstore nearest you, that we partner with, mail it out to you. Rather than try and be the new Amazon. We try to be the anti Amazon, because we're a bunch of lefty journalists. We're not the journalists and diplomats and stuff who are really concerned about this problem and trying to make it a difference. And we actually tried for four years nonprofit. So, we're not some Silicon Valley tech bro monster that's coming to eat journalism. We want to be on side with journalism against Silicon Valley more or less.

Tim Burrowes: And in terms of that sort of revenue stream, being able to kind of take a clip of any merchandise that a journalist sells. Have you got a sense of what sort of size of revenue that might be?

Austin Mackell: Well, it depends are you talking about the, for the journalist or for us?

Tim Burrowes: Well, I guess I'm talking about for you. Because I'm thinking obviously there are a number of you.

Austin Mackell: This is all really early days. As I say, we've been early for a long time. Why I think we still count as an early startup is the actual software that's on the market that's available now came out in June of last year. So, it's still fresh software. I'm sorry. Don't know when this is going to be broadcast, but in June 2021. And we got our first users in, first publisher on board in September, and that's helped us narrow in on what we're trying to achieve. And now we're building a monetisation model around his needs and the needs of the people who seem most likely to be early adopters. But if publisher out there has a different idea. They can reach out to me and we will be building this product around the publishers who come on board first as well.

Tim Burrowes: I presume what you've done though, is as you've sort of discussed the evolving model and talked about the merchandising model, you've sat down with a pen and a back of an envelope or a piece of paper and said, it could look like that. I guess what I'm sort of thinking is, okay you employ yourself and a couple of other colleagues as well. Will you write enough revenue just to cover your own costs by doing it that way?

Austin Mackell: Well, we are like most early stage software companies, a loss making entity at the moment. We have relied on a lot of small investments from several small investors to keep us going. And I don't think there's any danger of us as a company really shutting down because the passion around this project, as I've described it elsewhere it's more like a cult than a company. So, I try and be as unlike a cult leader as I can be, but it's not always easy for me. The company's going to keep on trucking until we find a way to monetise this, which is revenue positive for the publications and for us. I don't want to be drawn too much into numbers and stuff like that, because we need to put more people through the machine and see how it works before we start committing to anything in public.

But there's a lot of ways to monetise video. There's a huge number of ways to monetise video. There's all the old ways advertising, using it, putting it behind a pay wall, digital busking, there's all of that that's expanding. We've got experience with the digital busking model and it works. There's no reason it wouldn't work with the other ones. What we are doing that's new is a new way of creating video and a new species of video content.

Tim Burrowes: Digital busking, can you explain what that is?

Austin Mackell: Oh, that where the content's free, but “please support me on Patreon”. The Guardian is a digital busker. Guardian Australia says, donate to us and we'll give the product away to everyone for free. And I think that there's a insight in that model, is that if people don't want to pay for journalism that only they can read. So, they've had to put this thing in where people then can share it with their friends, still thinking in this sort of transactional thing where people want to experience the news and have the experience of sharing with their friends. And they're paying for that experience. Like no, they're paying for the journalism to exist, because they care about society and they want everybody to have access to this information ideally.

So, digital busking is a model that we are quite aligned with. We can work with pay walls, we can work with any revenue model. We're just in a sense, we're just like Adobe software. We're a new way of making video. But we've just combined a lot of the steps. So, rather than researching a video, writing a video, editing a video, uploading a video and posting a video, you do everything except posting it at once. You're researching it, writing it, editing it and uploading it all at once. And then all you've got to do when you finished researching and your story is posted and you've got this tidy little video package.

Tim Burrowes: And you mentioned that your belief in the project and you of your team is such that you can keep going for the foreseeable. How many of you are working full time on this? And what is your current runway based on the money in the bank?

Austin Mackell: Six months. Sorry, six people and six months.

Tim Burrowes: Yeah. So, you've got enough to go on paying six people full time for the next six months.

Austin Mackell: Well, our COO refuses to take any money. So, we're paying five of those six people. He's working for us from Turkey and insisting that the money is ... Because he's a co-owner too. Everyone of these people are founders, in whatever sense, they're founders. And they all have a stake both emotionally and legally in the company. Our goal like Palantir is to remain a private company. And for the same reason, so that we can stick to our core mission and serve the interest of our client without the interference that comes from being a publicly shared traded company. That's the goal for us. Palantir of the people.

Tim Burrowes: And over the next six months, obviously you'll be talking to potential investors. How much are you looking to raise?

Austin Mackell: Well, in about six months time, we'd like to put together around for about $500,000. It's about when it happens that I'd express a lot of trepidation. Because our goal is to keep honing the product, keep talking to journalists until, and well publishers now. You don't realise how dumb you are until after you realise the stupid things you've been doing. And why are we talking to journalists? They don't have any decision making power, we need to talk to the publishers. There's only really [inaudible] is when we spoke to Scott, who's the journalist and the publisher. And so he could just pull the trigger and off we go. So, it's like, wait a minute. Why are we not…

We're talking to the wrong person. And same with the merch, it's like, well, if we do advertising, the whole idea with advertising is, well, someone's going to see an ad click on the link. Eventually click through five other people and order a product that comes through. And we're all trying to guess what they're interested in. It's like, well, we know one thing they're interested in: Scott and Scott's work. We know that they're interested in this. And what I like to say is that in the last century, especially the second half, the last part of the second half, especially everyone was wearing band t-shirts. The Dead Kennedys made a lot more money selling t-shirts than they did selling albums.

And it's because the bands you listened to were part of your identity and part of your cultural set that you were putting yourself in. And I think that journalism is increasingly going to be fulfilling that role for people. And our music doesn't have that same edginess to it anymore. And it doesn't say anything about you that you listen to mega death anymore, but it does say something about you that you watch Sky News after dark, or that you consume Forensic News, or that you consume the Unmade media podcast. That tells me something about you as a person.

Tim Burrowes: And if your investor or investors do come in with that half million dollars, how would you spend it?

Austin Mackell: I just want to say one thing really quickly. F**k the investors. I don't wake up in the morning and think about investors. I'm not worried about that. What I think about is what my customers need, what journalists need, what the people who consume news need and how we can solve this sort of matching problem of matching people who want quality news with people who are producing quality news. I think of us, quick analogy before I answer your question, I think of us actually were a lot like AirBNB, because the rooms, especially when they started out and people were actually renting spare rooms, not building whole businesses around it. The rooms were just sitting there and people needed a place to stay in, all the AirBNB had to do was connect the value.

The research is happening. Premium, good faith journalists are spending this time doing valuable work. And there are people out there who want to know who those journalists are and identify them and find them. And we are a matchmaking service between those two. That's what I wake up thinking about. And we would spend the money to achieve that goal. Obviously more dev. We don't have a Mac version. So, build a Mac team and put a Mac version out there because of course some of the best journalists, I don't want to name any names, but probably the most prestigious outlets that we've spoken to have said, “well, we're on Mac and we don't run virtual machines. You can't run a PC, a virtual PC on the Mac for security reasons, because the mafia is trying to kill us and so forth. So, we have to be really, really careful about digital security.” And so we are just blocked by not having a Mac version. So, we would expand into Mac. We would be doing more visual effects. We would be enhancing the visual suite so that it becomes more of a, like you make the videos look more beautiful and interesting and colorful and some branded graphics in there for our premium users. That's the kind of stuff we would grow about. But I'm not here hoping that an investor will be listening to this. I'm hoping, as I say, nine different people, none of whom wherever and whatever invested in a tech company have opened up their checkbooks to keep this company going because they believe in journalism and they believe in our approach to solve it. And I'll find attempt if I need to. That won't be the hard part. The hard part is getting media to adopt a new technology. That's the challenge.

Tim Burrowes: Sure. I'd probably want a little bit more persuading that it's not hard to get investment. And I find myself wondering, given that the route you've chosen is as a for-profit business, rather than not-for-profit. If somebody is going to invest in a for-profit, they want to see how that money will deliver them in return at the other end. That's the nature of investments, investors in for-profits. Now I think if I was an investor and I heard the CEO say, well, f**k the investors, I'd be a bit nervous about seeing my money again?

Austin Mackell: No look. So, the first, let me tell you about the investors who got this company off the ground. There are a couple from New Zealand, not people I know. Part of the network of, the extended network of the company. They have some personal money, some family money, blah, blah, blah. Rich, but no super yachts. And they saw the movie Spotlight. You know, the movie Spotlight. And then the next day, our COO Daniel was sleeping on their couch so he could approach newspapers in Wellington where they live. He's from Auckland. He went to Wellington to go and approach some newspapers that have their offices at the capital. And he was just literally sleeping on their couch, because he's old school buddies with the bloke and they said, what are you doing? And then they said, “this is the most incredible thing we've heard in years. And we want to be a part of this anywhere we can. Are you guys looking for investors?” And we're also, we don't need much money because we've gone broke. We've run out of money. That's already happened. We've run out of money. And everybody just kept, stayed at the battle stations and kept working and took other jobs if they needed to and just kept going. Look, investment is, there's a thing you're saying you want the smart money, not the, well, we want the money with heart and we also want the smart money.

And the other thing is that of that couple, the woman was the sort of driver and she'd worked in film. So, she knows that if we can get millions of impressions on video content, because we're putting video on newspapers all over the world, there's going to be a way to make money over that. What's the hard part is not shipping the album, it's writing a hit song. The hard part is getting the impressions and if we find a new path to video impressions for a whole class of publishers on the internet, the value that we're creating is immense. And I mean the X that we're creating to quote Peter Thiel is so huge that our Y that only needs to be a small portion to be a very profitable company.

Tim Burrowes: And then maybe just a final question around the investment side of things before I ask you to look to the future. So, you mentioned that maybe in six months time, you might look for-

Austin Mackell: Can I just, I just want to jump back in, I just want to jump back in on this ‘fk the investors’ point. I think that's what an investor should want to hear. Because if the person you're investing with is waking up every morning, thinking about investors, then what they're running is a Ponzi scheme, not a business. Because their goal is to raise more money and keep the company going and pay themselves handsomely and attend startup conferences and invest. Meanwhile, on the side they're investing in their investment property, which is their fallback plan for when it all goes to st. That's not an option for us. Because we've spent too much of our lives. Many people on the team have been in real danger because of their commitment to journalism and democracy and the things like that.

And the stuff that we're trying to address here. When we run out of money, we keep going. When we realize that the not-for-profit's not going to happen, we keep going. This is because we are convinced of the basic intellectual principle behind it. That if people want to be trusted, they have to provide not just an account of the evidence, but the process by which they gathered that evidence. Process first, then evidence. Like police. Police understand it's where Scott got it straight away. Thinking about how journalists present evidence in an article, they strategically sort of pull it out and throw it across the table in mid stride. You know what I mean? Police couldn't do that if they're prosecuting a case in court. They have to account for the whole chain of custody of how they got that. And sometimes you have to redact your name here and there, but that's the exception, not the rule. And police are more trusted than journalists in increasing numbers, which is a terrifying concept, but maybe there's a reason for it.

Tim Burrowes: Let's just come back and close the loop on the investor question. I'll come back on the point you've just made. And then one final one. I totally see what you say about your team being passionate founders and driven by the mission. I suppose I just, I find myself think of uyou, in a few months time, you are going to have to ask some people for some money. And I guess my question is, are you sure you don't want them to feel that you are going to be taking as seriously, not losing their money, as you are the mission?

Austin Mackell: Absolutely. Absolutely. The mission, it has to be profitable or there's no success. That's a false binary. If we don't make any money, if the company is not making revenue and profit at some stage in, I don't want to say how many years, but not an insane number of years. Then we've failed and we're not going to have the impact that we want. But more important, the path for me to making my investors money is making journalist money. So, what keeps me up at night is not the, I spend very little time, a very small percentage of my time pitching investors. Mostly I spend my time pitching journalists who think this is a mad person. This is a crazy person who I need to sort of filter out of my inbox.

We've been introduced. So, you gave me a minute of your time because whenever I get a journalist face to face on a call in a conversation, they can't tell me why this doesn't make sense from a publisher's point of view and from a public interest point of view. And so the only thing that I'm concerned about really is that we're too early and then maybe we can't survive long enough for the market to catch up. And that is the big risk that we face and the fact that we're never going to stop kind of mitigates that risk. And one more thing about the investors, if I'm thinking about customers so that I can deliver for the investors. If I'm thinking about the investors, I'm not thinking about the customers. The investor doesn't want me thinking about them if they're a smart investor, they want me out there doing whatever it takes to make the company work, not trying to figure out how I'm going to impress them in a conference room that we've rented from Fishbones.

Tim Burrowes: And final question on those investors, let's say somebody does come to you and say, yeah, I've got half million dollars. I can see your vision.

Austin Mackell: Well, that's happened. I mean, not the exact number, but people have come to us in similar numbers and said exactly that. So, yeah.

Tim Burrowes: And to ask the Dragon's Den type question, and I'm sure you might not have an exact number, but I'll be just curious to know the kind of quantum you're thinking. What sort of proportion of the company are you willing to hand over as a sort of rough percentage for that half a million dollars?

Austin Mackell: Well, based on previous ... Look, I'm going to say one more thing that's going to sound really grandiose, but we talk about valuations and I always shirk at the word because this is not the value of the company. The value of the company is incredible. The value of the company is incalculable. We're building the library of Alexandria. But the price, I can tell you the price. And based on transactions that have happened, our company was valued over a year ago, a little over 4.1 million. So, it would be a higher number than that now. It would be a bit higher than that now. We're not trying to 10X every couple of years here. We're trying to build sustainable growth with no hype. And we've got software and a user, and we've got an actual concept here that we're trying to develop.

We're not trying to run a startup. See, no one in the company is a startup person. And I think that's the best thing because none of us would've, you see all this stuff in the startup space. Like people sitting around thinking, oh, how can I come up with a good idea to run a startup? And it's like, well, what's a problem I can solve. We had the problem. We were feeling the problem in the bedrock of our souls for years before we realized that a software company was a vehicle for solving that problem. So, that gives us a huge advantage over every other startup in the marketplace and an enduring advantage. And I'm sorry. So, we're talking a good price for an early stage startup, but an early stage startup that has durability.

Tim Burrowes: And the valuation, I think I heard, you said last round, it was 4.1 million.

Austin Mackell: Closer to 4.8, we're rounding to 4.8. That was for the whole company. So, if you came with what's $500,000, it's about 10%.

Tim Burrowes: Yeah. Okay. And I suppose I, again, and this, I guess, would be the final question on valuations, given that I think I'm right in saying you haven't got any revenue yet. Does a 5 million valuation seem a bit high for a company that doesn't have any revenue?

Austin Mackell: I think in the Australian startup space, people think about this differently than they do in the US startup space as well. And our first investor, and sort of the person who led the charge was an American living in New Zealand. In America, people buy into what they see is the value of the company long term, and then less focused on what I would call superficial early metrics. You can make revenue by selling some potpourri pillows on eBay. And that would not make you a more valuable company than people who are building proprietary software that performs something really valuable.

There's a belief in ‘grow it first and we'll worry about tapping the value in later’, if you can create it. Whereas, I mean, in Australia, people mostly want to invest in, oh, well, last year in America, someone sold mattresses by advertising on podcasts, and we're going to do that. So, fine. I don't believe that every investor out there is only ... I mean, if you were just interested in making money, you probably wouldn't even be in the tech space. Unless you're an idiot and you think that, oh, I'm going to win the lottery because I'm going to be the, tech is the best way to get rich. You're seeing tech stocks taking a beating. Sorry, I'm not trying to date at the podcast, but at the moment we're seeing Facebook has just lost 200 billion dollars in it. What was it like, you'd know better than me, how long did that take, a haircut? A day. Two days. That tells you something about the real value and how good the market is at identifying where the value lies.

Tim Burrowes: So, how do you differ to other people who are operating in the trust space?

Austin Mackell: Okay, well, you've got, one's called the rust Project. Another is called news garden, and there's the Truist Ibn J ournalism Initiative and the People's Front of Judea and so forth. And then related to that, you've got these big philanthropic organizations, the Craig Newmark Foundation, and you've got the Judith Neilson Institute or Nielsen Institute rather. Sorry. What was that? A hundred million request. And I don't know what they're really doing with that apart from some of the same old ideas. But the closest these groups have come, we sometimes collectively refer to them as the model UN. They have a lot of conferences and they talk to each other a lot. And you get a lot of people in the room who all voted for Hillary Clinton. And they figure out who should be on their list of safe news outlets and who should not be on their list of safe news outlets.

And they all have one version or another of putting their logo on a website. And they do the whole website all at once. Okay. We've assessed The Economist. It gets the big green news guard tick. We've assessed whoever it is, I can't think of a customer off the top of my head. They get the Trust in Journalism logo. And now you've got this logo, your RSPCA-approved chicken, and everyone can feel safe and happy about eating you. But a new story is not like a chicken breast. It is not mass produced on a production line. Everyone is different. And you need to build trust at the level of the story. And if you're going to have a reputation system for a journalist or a publication, it needs to be built from the ground up on a story by story granular basis.

That's your basic data. And so we're not just giving you a tick and we're not having experts come in and do it. We're engaging with the public. They're engaging with the material. And we're building a sort of a matrix of values around the research. So, the first one is the research duration. How much time did this person spend researching? It's the simplest thing in the world. “Do you actually know what the f**k you're talking about, mate?” I explained this to a journalists with PhDs and they're so confused sometimes about the idea. “I don't understand who would, want, why? Huh?” I explained it to a trucky, and he got it in about 13 seconds.

And he was like, “yeah, well, I have a GPS unit in the cabin of my truck and it tracks my miles”. If you have an Uber ride driver. You go, oh, well this Uber driver he's all right, some experts checked him out. You can trust him. You build that reputation based on accumulative reviews. Now I know what you're thinking, oh, we are going to get brigaded by the trolls. We have a system to fix that. First of all, now we're just doing the duration. We're not even having the rating. We're letting that conversation happen somewhere else. When we start to bring in other matrices, like quality, what we're going to do is we're going to have a reciprocal relationship where they actually have to watch all the content before they get to participate. And that will immediately deflect the vast majority of the trolls.

There was a Norwegian tech website that said before you can comment, you have to answer a simple multiple choice question about the story. And it wasn't hard. It was just like in what country is the story taking place. And that was enough to deflect most of the people who came to rant about lizard people or whatever. So, we have a system built in. But it's all towards this goal of building an anatomy of research around each story, and then building the trust story by story, claim by claim, source by source, as you go. Bottom down, not top up. And we are the only people taking that approach.

Tim Burrowes: So, final question for me asking you to look forward. If we were to come back and have this conversation again in 12 months from now in 2023, where will you be at?

Austin Mackell: We'll have more users and we'll have a Mac version. And I believe we'll have revenue via the merchandise play. And I think that will be the start of this wave of interest in merch, as a revenue source for journalism, which like all these other sort of trends will probably get a little bit too high at one stage. But I think it'll be end up being a major part of the revenue play going forward. In your book, you've got all these, you see this sort of industry running from monetization strategy to monetization strategy. Merch hasn't really had its turn yet, has it?

Tim Burrowes: Yeah. That's a fair point. Certainly not as a major funder of journalism.

Austin Mackell: And in terms of business, there's a philosophy that we have is don't do anything that anyone else is already doing. If someone else is already doing it, don't get in a knife fight with them about service they're already providing. So, we were kind of not being true to that by just saying, we'll just do advertising like everybody else. Merch is a way we've realised that, first of all, we don't have to get involved with these very complicated ad sales ecosystem. We can sort of do it all in house. And we are doing something by leveraging the video to sell the merch. We're doing something that I don't think anyone's done before, even at that level, even at the level of monetizations. So, I feel like the company really just finally took shape just before this podcast. So, it was really good timing.

Tim Burrowes: I'm glad to hear it. Well, Austin, thank you so much for your time and best of luck with your mission.

Austin Mackell: Okay. Thank you very much, Tim.

Tim Burrowes: Thanks for listening to the Unmakers from Unmade. If you are an unmaker, I'd love to talk to you. Email me, tim@unmade.media. Today's episode of the Unmakers was edited by Abe's Audio. I'm Tim Burrowes, before you remake it, you've got to unmake it.

Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

TrinityP3 pushes agencies to declare how they are dealing with harassment, bullying and assault;

Ten owner Paramount ANZ makes a big move for the AFL rights;

Meta and Google give their verdict on the News Media Bargaining Code;

Marketers still struggling with martech options

Further reading:

LinkedIn: Why TrinityP3 is requesting agencies declare on issues of harassment, bullying and assault – in the interests of clients and the wider industry

The Australian: Bidding war looms as Network Ten lobs $3bn bid for AFL broadcast rights

The Australian: Network 10’s breakfast news program records one of the lowest ratings in Australian TV history

SMH / The Age: Halfway point: What people are watching on TV in 2022

SMH / The Age: Meta executive claims Australian news outlets used laws to pay debt, reward shareholders

Marketing Charts: Almost Half of Marketers Are Overwhelmed by Their Technology

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

View Details

Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Until midnight on June 30, we’re offering 55% off an annual subscription to Unmade. That reduces the $650 price down to $292.50 per year. It’ll never be as low again, and you’ll be guaranteed the discount for as long as you stay a subscriber.

Today’s topics:

Update on the Judith Neilson Institute;

Michelle Rowland suggests no need to move ABC inner-city offices but flags broadcast legislation review;

The Foxtel / Stan tie-up that never was;

New investment for The Daily Aus;

Further reading:

SMH / The Age: Loss of trust: Behind the two months of turmoil at the Judith Neilson Institute

SMH / The Age: ABC staying put in Ultimo as Rowland eyes broadcasting review

AFR: Media ownership royal commission ‘not warranted’: Rowland

AFR: Nine, Foxtel explored combined streaming service before Binge launch

SMH / The Age: ‘Level up’: The Daily Aus plots UK expansion after $1.2m capital raise

Unmade: Best of the Week: Black holes in the metaverse

Digiday: As Cannes winds down, some marketers say want ‘less pageantry and more substance’ from the festival

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

View Details

Welcome to The Unmakers, Unmade’s latest podcast series where we talk to people who are trying to remake the media and marketing world.

Each episode will feature people who are doing business differently. We're going to meet the startups, the troublemakers, and the dreamers who've looked at the communications industry and are trying to find a better way.

If you're an unmaker with a story to tell about how you're changing the media and marketing world, we’d love to hear from you on letters@unmade.media.

In today's first episode, Tim Burrowes talks to the founders of Mutiny, Henry Innis and Matt Farrugia. After leaving big network jobs, they chose not to simply start yet another agency. Instead, they launched a software company which helps marketers understand the return on investment of their media spend.

Rather like Google analytics helps marketers to understand their digital activity, Mutiny attempts to do the same for marketing investment using the data that brands put into it.

Mutiny's been around for more than three years, and a few days ago, it closed its first seed round with investors putting in $2.4m to help take the company global. The deal valued Mutiny at more than $10m.

Tim caught up with Henry and Matt in Melbourne a few days before the announcement.

Below is the full transcript of the interview. Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio.

And don’t forget, Unmade is offering 55% off an annual subscription to a paid membership of Unmade. That reduces the $650 price down to $292.50 per year. It will never be as low as this again.

Transcript

Tim Burrowes: I'm Tim Burrowes from Unmade. Welcome to The Unmakers, a series in which I talk to people who are trying to remake the media and marketing world. Each episode, I talk to people who are doing business differently. We're going to meet the startups, the troublemakers, and the dreamers who've looked at the communications industry and are trying to find a better way. If you're an unmaker with a story to tell about how you're changing the media and marketing world, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at tim@unmade.media. Before you remake it, you've got to unmake it.

In today's first episode of The Unmakers, I talked to the founders of Mutiny, Henry Innis and Matt Farrugia. After leaving big network jobs, they chose not to simply start yet another agency. Instead, they launched a software company which helps marketers understand the return on investment of their media spend. Rather like Google analytics helps marketers to understand their digital activity, Mutiny attempts to do the same for marketing investment using the data that brands input into it. Mutiny's been around for more than three years. A few days ago, it closed its first seed round with investors putting in $2.4m to help take the company global. The deal valued the company at more than $10m. I caught up with Henry and Matt in Melbourne a few days before the announcement. I began by asking Henry what this moment will mean for the business.

Henry Innis: What we had set out to do over the past two to three years was we obviously started the business where it had a look and feel of a consultancy. We always set out with the plan to have SaaS and technology products at the heart of that.

Tim Burrowes: SaaS being software as a service.

Henry Innis: Yeah. So, and we proved out a SaaS model with some fairly large enterprise customers who have renewed a number of times. For us now, the key focus is how do we build what you would describe as a bottom-up SaaS model. So, a SaaS model which is, one, driving growth through its own product, and two, it's able to deliver value increasingly in a very automated way, both to our customer base but also to their agencies. This allows us to build tools on top of the platform that don't just do the core of marketing ROI, but also integrate back into agency workflows and also customer workflows more effectively.

Tim Burrowes: Well, we'll get into the model and also the fundraising a little bit more. First, I guess the headline description of what mutiny offers is an ability for marketers and agencies to see how their media spend is being used most effectively.

Henry Innis: Yeah, it's the best, we call it marketing investment analytics. So, in the same way that every single business has Google Analytics for their website and that is the primary form of measurement that you have within the marketing space, we envisage the same thing coming against your marketing pricing media going forward. So, marketers will install a platform that acts as a marketing investment analytics platform across all of their activities and allows them to see financial returns.

Tim Burrowes: Well, we'll get into that properly in a moment. Matt, let me come back to you then. Let's do the origin story. Where did the two of you get together then to build Mutiny in the first place?

Matt Farrugia: So, Henry and I met at WPP, I think it was around 2017 or thereabouts, and I was managing director of Y&R Creative Agency and also worked with a group across WPP, various clients at the time, and Henry was our national strategy director, and we struck a kind of natural working rhythm and a shared interest in real disruption for doing things differently and better, and also shared a frustration with a lack of speed to things like speed to insight and also evolving capabilities. So, then through that shared frustration, I guess, we thought, "Hey, let's go and start our own disruption and call it Mutiny."

Tim Burrowes: And it's still fairly unusual for people who've got big network jobs to actually make the jump because you're quite well paid, there's not too much risk. Was it the opportunity in front of you or was it frustration in the world you were in? What actually propelled you out the door?

Matt Farrugia: Great question. I probably put it to I became uncomfortable with being too comfortable, and I think those environments are really set up for you. We have to again, great environments for many people. You can build your careers in those networks. I think I was interested in looking beyond that and outside of those networks in terms of to create real change takes a level of risk, and also Henry and I set out to create something of real value, and the product that we have in market today, it didn't exist. The type of product we have today didn't exist. So, I think we just found that so incredibly exciting, and I think you hear of a lot of stories of large enterprise wanting to create new products for their customers, be it massive telcos or banks, whatever. It's a struggle. To create a new product, creating new value or tapping into white space as it's called, it the best way to do it is go and acquire a company who's doing it, or create a complete skunkworks team outside of that company to build that product. Yeah, do you know what I mean?

Tim Burrowes: Well, Henry, let me bring you back in on that point. What you have now as a product, how close is that to what you had in the back of your mind when you first made the leap? Because I honestly thought you were adding a bit of a bit of sizzle to it, but basically you were starting another agency, and it took quite a while for the penny to drop for me that really, you're a software company.

Henry Innis: Well, so I've always had a background in software. So, I think that's first thing is that Matt's had a background in avionics engineering. We both understand problems from an engineering and systems mindset. So, I think that helps. When we started, we looked at it through one of two lenses. Either we were going to be a consultancy, but we were going to use technology to attack the pricing structure really, really well. So, by way of example, you might do a consulting-style project, but at a much cheaper fee, much less head hours because you had something producing the outputs much cheaper. The alternative was pure placed SaaS, but either way, we were going to be reliant on some kind of technology product at the core from the very start of the business.

I think the penny dropped for us that we were going to go down the SaaS route when we started seeing usage numbers. So, where people were coming into the platform, largely without us necessarily having to supervise and handhold, and that's where we started to go, "Well, this is really leaning a lot more towards SaaS." We weren't sure, being honest, which way it was going to go, just because of the nature of some of the industry. It is used to having a lot of support structures around it. But I think we decided about six months in when we started seeing some of those early numbers to do that. The other strength I think of SaaS is it actually allowed us to work better into the ecosystem because what we don't really want to do is you don't really want to replace the ingenuity of a media agency or a really good media agency planner because you can't replace that with data. The same goes with groups like creative agencies and things like that.

So, I think one of the good things about being a SaaS product is you can build for both the agency and the customer and that helps, and versus if I'm one of our competitors, they bring in consultants and it's a bit off-putting, I think, to agencies to have an army of consultants sitting there critiquing their work in PowerPoint. I mean, I wouldn't really like that, whereas for us, it's a bit like installing Adobe or something similar. So, I think for us, that's why we focused on SaaS and those sorts of elements. Also, just think SaaS is more fun as a kind of something to execute.

Tim Burrowes: Well, also presumably much more scalable as well. Well, I guess, talk about that sort of what it contributed to kind of the speed of the business's growth and everything. Let's just drill in a tiny bit into the product itself. I guess some of our listeners from a hardcore martech background will have a pretty clear picture. Others won't. If you were describing this in the pub, what is the problem that you're helping solve?

Henry Innis: Well, I think, firstly, every marketer has more decisions than ever to make. We're not looking at decisions, shrink number of decisions shrinking. We're looking at number of decisions growing. The only platform at the moment that helps you make those decisions from a data-driven perspective realistically is website analytics. That's about as close as we get which is why everything has been so digitally skewed, and also because the data around digital is timely and it's provisioned in a format that's accessible, and it's quick and easy for an average person to use. For us, we believe that the orientation of the market around website analytics basically has, I don't want to say stuffed marketing, but it kind of has. What we are building is marketing investment analytics. So, a true, actual end-to-end analytics platform across your growth that sits across everything.

Tim Burrowes: So, Matt, could you think of a good sort of hypothetical example of a decision that would be changed by using the product or it might be?

Matt Farrugia: Yeah. No, great question. There are so many, and I think we're seeing a lot of use cases from our customers using the platform, and the decisions, we're seeing a lots of different types of decisions. The ones that we didn't anticipate, how they were using the platform, but I'd say the one would be relocating budget across channels that are underinvested that can deliver a greater impact. So, for example, we've had customers shift, they've identified $800,000 of budget for a particular campaign, and they were able to reallocate that with a high degree of accuracy into other channels that were underinvested, that the platform indicated if they moved this budget across these channels, they would get this.

Tim Burrowes: And how specific are we being with channels? Is it just like, okay, if you move from, I don't know, magazines to newspapers, to use two old school examples?

Matt Farrugia: That is an example. We can get down to the level of shifting budget across channels. So, for example, from online video to out of home, etcetera, or even to at a geography level, across publishers, across creative types, and also formats of advertising. So, a level of granularity that to do that previously, it took a hell of a long time, a hell of a lot of data, and really heavy on resources to determine that, where our platform now can deliver that insight to inform that decision in seconds.

Tim Burrowes: And which of the agency groups have supported you now? Are all of the major holding companies involved?

Henry Innis: We work primarily with customers.

Tim Burrowes: So, mostly, it's brand side, as opposed to agency side.

Henry Innis: Brand side are the people that will commission the contracts, yes.

Tim Burrowes: Interesting.

Henry Innis: So, we certainly go direct, but we have a number of various, I mean, you'd say across most of the majors, we probably, we have some level of interaction. I'd also just say most of them are pretty good at provisioning the data as well. They know what to give us and all those sorts of things. So, it's been pretty successful like that. We generally see once it's installed, again, I draw the analogy to Salesforce and Adobe. A customer normally install Adobe Analytics or something like that, and then following that, the agency will then start to use them and all those sorts of things as well. So, they'll come together and coalesce around a platform. I think for agencies, it can be quite good because they're not kind of marking their own homework in a sense, and so there's an independent platform where both the customer and the agency can come around and go, "Well, here's what we did working, and if not, why not?" and start to make those decisions in a fairly impartial kind of way.

Tim Burrowes: And, Matt, how do you and Henry divide your labour? Who does what between the two of you as co-founders?

Matt Farrugia: Good question. I think Henry spends a lot of time with the product and engineering team. I think that's where his strengths definitely lie, and I think and I spend a lot of my time with our customers and guiding them to how to get the most out of platform and how to see value and help them, educate them how to make those decisions that we're talking about, and then there's a whole bunch of operational stuff that we kind of share, but yeah.

Tim Burrowes: Now, one of the side jobs to the main job recently has been doing a fundraising round which is a massive job in its own right. So, this would be, I suppose, if we talk about kind of preseed, seed, round A, the sort of size of the round of fundraising you're doing would be a seed round, presumably sort of $1 or $2m, something like that you've raised?

Henry Innis: $2.4m.

Tim Burrowes: $2.4m, and how will you spend it?

Henry Innis: So, right now, I mean, there are a few factors that dictated why we raised. Right now, we've kept our burn roughly flat. We're not on a kind of a runway type model which must…

Tim Burrowes: Yeah, so you weren't highly profitable but you weren't losing money in other words.

Henry Innis: Correct, yeah. We hadn't really burnt significant amounts of capital and things like that. So, we weren't on a runway model or anything like that, but we wanted to move into two areas. The first is moving in and starting to data mine insights and things like that, just to make finding some of the areas a little bit easier and more responsive for our customer base and for our user base. That drives usage up for us and also just starts to get us into the workflows. The second is doing a lot of workflow integration. So, getting back into Slack, Teams, all those sorts of things, building links back into those areas. Again, the reason why is to build a stickier product. And then the third is to start to release data management tools on the other end of the funnel to make the whole process of data collection organisation easier, and we just want to basically make that free and make that the standard of how people collect and manage enterprise marketing data.

We think that managing enterprise marketing data is a really hard and challenging thing for most organisations at the moment. We look a lot to a business called Dovetail who does the same thing in UX research, very, very large business now and very successful business. The way that they built a repository around UX research, we want to try to build the same kind of repository for marketers to use and manage that data. If we do those three things, we'll have, one, made managing data far easier, more effective for the market which is just good for us in the category generally. The second thing is we'll have provided a lot more value to customers through really strong usage based value, automated value creation products as well. And then the third thing that we'll have done is we'll have integrated far more into the workflows and the daily workflows of our user base than before.

I think it's important to note our entire organisation is KPId on usage of the product. So, none of us are actually KPId on renewal of contracts and things like that. That's important to us, but the really important thing to us that we know matters is usage. If people are using our product, they're loving it, and therefore they'll renew. The same goes for kind of any other kind of business performance you look at. So, I think it's a very software way to view the world, but this raise allows us to continue to align to that and to invest in R& D in those spaces.

Tim Burrowes: And what sort of people have invested this time round? What sort of backgrounds?

Matt Farrugia: Yeah, varied. I guess we're quite humbled by the investors that have come in, and they do vary from being CEOs and chairpeople of very large organisations locally and globally. There's CEOs, former CEOs of very large media companies. There's some founders of some very successful product tech-focused companies. We're excited by the group of people that are getting on board and believing in our product and getting onto the journey.

Tim Burrowes: And are there any names you are allowed to share at this stage?

Henry Innis: Well, we certainly had some really great support, so I mean, the names, I mean, there are names like Brodie Arnold who's the chairman of iSelect, he'll be joining our board, and Charlie Gearside, he was one of the co-founders of Eucalyptus. Alexey Mitko as well who's a co-founder of Eucalyptus. We have Sir Robin Miller from the UK who was former CEO of Emap and chairman of HMV. And then also we had a UK quant fund Bloomsbury Information Capital who anchored the round effectively for us. So, most of our existing investors also followed their money which obviously helps and is a really good sign. So, we're pretty lucky that we feel we've found the right mix of technology, media, marketing leaders, and also just business leaders. You've also got a lot of people, we've been lucky to have Chris Savage people like John Curtius and other kind of those sorts of that sort of era as well.

Tim Burrowes: And I think earlier in your life, before he went off to another gig in Asia, you had Cheuk Chiang on your board or CEO.

Henry Innis: I think Chewy pursued other avenues which potentially were better suited to what he wanted to do.

Tim Burrowes: For those who aren't really familiar with how these sort of raisings were, you kind of go preseed, seed, like you're planting a seed, and that's with the view to becoming big. Matt, how big can you get?

Matt Farrugia: Sky's the limit. I think if we look at demand, we're sensing a lot of demand coming from other markets, including the US, and I think in terms of how big we can get, I think it's probably not just the amount of employees we are. It's probably the volume of media inventory money that's coming through the platform is what we are really interested in as well.

Henry Innis: The way you can do it is that you can look at there are 150,000 businesses in the US who are able to get this product. If you were to assume a 10% conversion rate, so you get to about 10% market share. So, it's 15,000 businesses in the US. There are over 1,000 businesses in Australia. Again, you do the same maths. We estimate that the category itself could be somewhere in the orders of $10b plus. For us, we envisage that various players within the market could be taking up to $500m in recurring revenue.

Tim Burrowes: And what's your pricing structure? You kind of alluded to the fact that there's a kind of entry level free level. Where do you go from there? What points do the businesses start paying and how?

Henry Innis: Well, so there are two conceptual models in SaaS at the moment. Model one is what most people would be familiar with which is enterprise SaaS where you go in, you negotiate big contracts, and things like that, and to an extent, I think that's where we have traditionally been as well.

Tim Burrowes: And that's usually priced on the number of users for instance?

Henry Innis: No, so, well, it can be, but it's priced on a license for the enterprise and seats and features basically. Where we want to get to is primarily pricing against I would say usage and value. So, we want to be able to collect the data and do that data management piece largely for free. Then if you'd like to switch on the unified WarChest model which is able to model all of your data very quickly and effectively, that comes at a cost, but it can reliably deliver this result. Then on top of that, we then want to have pricing structures that exist around if we see a low ROI channel, able to data mine recommendations around that channel and provide that to get it from A to B and basically give people that confidence, or if there's a low performing brand or business unit, same again.

Henry Innis: I think for us, it's important to note, we're not there yet. This raise gets us to that sort of model, but for us I think as a business, we want to be pricing around where value is created, not where reports are generated and things like that because ideologically for a business that gets us much closer to customer value, and again, I come back to that concept of usage and things like that. If you're constantly priced against usage, you're constantly incentivised against usage, and if you're entire business thinks about usage and workflows, then your entire business will be more in sync with your customer base than ever which is dangerous in tech if you're not doing that

Tim Burrowes: Now, I guess you must have quite a nice sort of network effect as well, where the more data you get into the system, the more you mine, the more information you get. Matt, I guess when you're talking to customers, one of the objections you must get is well, what about protecting my data. How do you make sure that you kind of keep ward off each individual client's information and data? How do you reassure them about that?

Matt Farrugia: We've tested out that. So we adhere to very strict standards around data security, information security, network architecture security, etcetera. I think the key thing there is data segregation. We have our engineers and our entire architecture is configured. When we roll out what we call an instance of WarChest for a customer, we have very, very well defined architecture that drives and manages what we call data segregation. There is no crossover of data. If there is, our automated notification systems just light up, and ultimately, that's the assurance and confidence we give our customers. We work with many customers across many categories, including banking, and finance, and retail and every other, all the other major spenders within advertised media. Australia especially has one of the higher standards and most strict requirements around things like compliance and security.

Tim Burrowes: And of all of the insights that you've generated, just give me one really great example, "Oh, blimey, okay, that's interesting," where you'd never have thought that about the ROI of a particular channel, for instance. Henry, you look like you thought of one. You certainly leaned forward at that point.

Henry Innis: So, well, I think there are two, one, out home is incredibly cyclical. So, one really interesting thing I think is that we see the effectiveness coefficients or what you call the time varying data of out of home varies across seasons, particularly it's obviously affected by the weather, but our working theory is, for example, shorter days equals shorter exposure times. Right? So, the actual amount of daylight has a direct effect on at home viewability as it were.

Tim Burrowes: Even with digital outdoor, for instance?

Henry Innis: Well, I think most digital outdoor, it's still not a dominant part of it. Right? So, I don't know if that would change with digital outdoor. It might, but that's an interesting one that we've picked up. Right now, we're exploring how long a Facebook scandal will impact effectiveness for Facebook.

Tim Burrowes: Oh, that's interesting.

Henry Innis: That's something we're exploring in.

Tim Burrowes: What's the early information on that one?

Henry Innis: Stay tuned, and I think the next thing, the other kind of interesting areas that we look at is one thing that's quite consistent is sometimes certain channels will have low ROI in a system, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're bad. Sometimes it actually means they're underinvested. So, by way of example, some customer bases will maybe spend 5,000 or 10,000 in TV or 5,000 in TikTok or something like that, these quite visual mediums, and they tend to perform quite poorly. Why? Because they actually need a certain amount of weight. If I buy one TV and it gets lost in the noise versus if I buy 500 TV ads in a week, suddenly everybody remembers me. It's like Harvey Norman. Right? Everyone knows a Harvey Norman ad.

Tim Burrowes: So, where would be the very last place you would spend your last thousand dollars based on everything you've seen?

Henry Innis: Oh, it's a really dependent question on the actual business itself. So, I'll give you a really good worked example of this which is like search is a really funny platform to be in. Unless you have one of two factors, it's hard to make money in search, well, make profits in search, unless you've got two things. Right? One you've got to have a better operating margin. So, if you have a better operating margin, you can outbid other people effectively, and search works amazingly to drive ROI in that kind of case.

Henry Innis: The second is if you have no competition. So if you have no competition in search again, it's an amazing place to be. So, those are the two vectors in which you look at search, but if I've got three companies, all who can pay up to a hundred dollars each for a customer, and then I'm in Google's ad bidding system, every company will basically bid away each other's margins in the auction system within search. So, I'd say search is a really interesting example of how it's brilliant in some context, but there have to be really clear dynamics on which it works to drive high ROI versus how people conventionally think about search which is as the kind of last element of it. It's very often it needs, there's certain dynamics you need.

Tim Burrowes: Interesting. Now, obviously you're still quite early in the journey, but equally, once you start doing fundraising rounds, you have investors who are investing to see a return down the track and they want some pictures on the potential exit. What's the likely exit for you guys? Is it to get acquired by someone? Is it to float as an IPO? What are the options, do you think?

Matt Farrugia: Good question. I think there are options. Right now, our focus is on in building our product and evolving our product roadmap. There is absolutely a complete obsession about our product and usage as Henry mentioned earlier. So, I think while an exit down the track of sorts might be there, right now, our focus and attention is actually just continuing.

Tim Burrowes: And where would you naturally sit in an exit? Would it be with like a, I don't know, an Adobe or something like that, that already has a stack, do you think?

Henry Innis: There's probably three to four categories of buyers that you think about. I think one thing I'd just say is we're enjoying building this business way too much to think about an exit. I think if you'd asked me three years ago, I probably would've had an exit in mind. These days, I think it's too much fun. So, I think that changes your calculus a bit, but I mean, your buyers are probably more in the data, analytics and business analytics space, I would say. So, I'd say groups like the S&P and those sorts of groups, or Bloomberg, tho those sorts of companies, I'd say, far more than an Adobe or far more than a Facebook or a Google, and there's a reason why, because those platforms have execution built into them, and because you're trading on their systems or trading on their rubric and things like that. There's a natural conflict if they acquire us so it's a little bit more difficult, and that's also why it's more difficult for them to enter our space as well.

Henry Innis: So, those two things kind of work hand in hand. It's strategically hard for them to enter our space. That's why they haven't done it, or they haven't done it successfully at scale, but it also means that our buyer profile probably sits more towards that business intelligence group, but that's a long way off too. That's a long way off.

Tim Burrowes: No, maybe might be the last question. Matt, I'll come to you first on this one. From the outside, this looks like a story of just like a rocket ship taking off. One of the realities of any kind of startups is never actually like that inside? You're zigging and zagging on the upward line. What's been hardest?

Matt Farrugia: Yeah, good question, Tim. If I think about what's been the hardest, at the same time, the hardest had been the most rewarding. So, I think in the early days, Henry and I wore many hats. We kind of still do. One day I would be the customer lead, the legal council, the payroll manager, looking at cashflow.

Henry Innis: You still are.

Matt Farrugia: Yeah, thanks Henry. Yeah, and then the table tennis champion, but that's another story. So, I think, look, yeah, coming from large companies, I think anyone, when you get into a... Startups are not for the faint-hearted. They really aren't. Your risk appetite, you've got to be brutally focused on the vision and where you are heading and the potential and maintain that belief because the second that you let those little whatever you want to call them, the thoughts around negativity or the thoughts around that risk that's going to weigh you down that, oh, maybe we shouldn't do this, there's no point in going forward. You're not going to be cut out for it. So, I think the hardest bits were not having that complete support team around you like you did in a larger company. As we're growing, we're filling those gaps, but yeah, that's probably...

Tim Burrowes: And Henry, what have you found the hardest?

Henry Innis: Startups, you have to just be extremely resilient, and you have to effectively try to take every knock. I think the most important thing and the hardest thing is even if things aren't going your way, you've got to project an immense amount of confidence to everybody around you, and that's the hardest thing, I think. I think giving security and certainty to others in a very uncertain environment is a challenging thing to do and project, and it's a challenging thing to do mentally. You have to compartmentalize a lot. You have a lot of stress associated with that you can't let through, and that also creates a high degree of loneliness as well I'd say. So, I think the one thing I know is that certainty and confidence in decision-making and a decision, even if it's not perfect is better than no decision.

Henry Innis: Those sorts of things are really important characteristics to bring through. And so, one of the things day in day out is providing that certainty, that confidence, even when you are feeling at your lowest, and I think that is the hardest bit that nobody talks about is providing that certainty, shaping that certainty, giving that confidence to people around you so that you are able to tackle big problems, big industry issues, big fires and all that kind of thing, do so with a focus and a clarity.

Tim Burrowes: Well, it's going to be really interesting from where I'm sitting watching what you do next. So, Matt and Henry, congratulations on the fundraising and thank you very much for joining me.

Henry Innis: No problems.

Matt Farrugia: Thanks, Tim.

Tim Burrowes: Thanks for listening to The Unmakers from Unmade. If you're an unmaker, I'd love to talk to you. Email me, tim@unmade.media. Today's episode of The Unmakers was edited by Abe's audio. I'm Tim Burrowes. Before you remake it, you've got to unmake it.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Four directors depart the Judith Neilson Institute;

M&C Saatchi sale in doubt;

Apple seeks ad execs in Cannes;

Successful seed funding round for Mutiny

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Damian Francis and Pure PR’s Phoebe Netto. Tim Burrowes is on leave. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media.

Further reading:

SMH / The Age: Directors quit at billionaire Judith Neilson’s journalism institute

The Guardian: M&C Saatchi pulls support for £310m takeover by Next Fifteen

Financial Times: M&C Saatchi ejects top shareholder from board after agreeing deal

Digiday: Big Tech will court adland during Cannes’ comeback week with Apple and Amazon upping the ante

AFR: Mutiny eyes 200pc expansion after $2.4m seed round

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week, a day later than usual because of Monday’s public holiday.

Today’s topics:

How Socceroos World Cup qualifier will be an SBS advertising boost

How the SMH’s Rebel Wilson scoop turned to reputational disaster;

Are Media goes again on content marketing;

Media stocks continue their plunge;

News Corp misses out on transformative betting deal

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

The Guardian: ‘Our reputation is trashed’: anonymous staffer criticises SMH management over Rebel Wilson coverage

Sydney Morning Herald: I made mistakes over Rebel Wilson, and will learn from them

Sydney Morning Herald: A note on Rebel Wilson

Guardian: Sydney Morning Herald apologises to original 1978 Mardi Gras protesters

Mumbrella: Are Media appoints Simon Smith to lead commercial content and creative

Unmade: The Unmade Index slide continues

SMH / The Age: Lachlan Murdoch’s $220m bet on digital bookmaking falls flat

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Media and marketing stocks’ scary price slide;

Twitter’s Australian tax “loss”;

Vale Peter Harvie;

Sarah Henderson replaces Paul Fletcher in Coalition communications portfolio;

Eddie McGuire to host Melbourne Cup on Ten?;

Most memorable reality TV moments

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

SMH / The Age: Bloodbath: Almost $8b in value wiped from ASX listed media stocks in 2022

SMH / The Age: Top Triple M, 2Day FM investor sounds warning over streaming

Unmade: Another bad week on The Unmade Index

SMH / The Age: Twitter Australia posts $2 million loss, fails to declare advertising revenue

Mumbrella: Australian radio and advertising icon Peter Harvie passes away

The Australian: McGuire signs up with Nine AND Ten

The Guardian: From a turkey slap to a chocolate bath: the 10 most memorable Australian reality TV moments

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Are sport fans missing the days of Foxtel’s subscription sports monopoly?;

What did the AANA conference agenda say about CMOs’ priorities?;

Seven prepares to debrand Prime;

Google and Facebook’s small tax bills;

Consultancies move away from auditing arms

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

Unmade: Vibe check: nervous and woke;

SMH / Age: Goodbye, Prime Possum? Seven eyes brand changes ahead of Commonwealth Games

SMH / Age: Google Australia’s tax bill just $85 million despite profit rise;

SMH / Age: Facebook’s Australian tax bill just $24 million as profits double;

SMH / Age: Twiggy Forrest’s Minderoo helps local publishers strike Google deal;

Australian Financial Review: EY’s break-up plan: Why it could radically reshape the big four

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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On Tuesday, Unmade ran our first live event, in front of a packed industry audience at The Forresters pub in Surry Hills. The topic - which proved to be a lively one - was how the communications industry should handle the growing cost of living crisis.

The panel featured Melissa Hopkins, VP and CMO, Optus, Katie Rigg-Smith, chief strategy officer WPP, Jana Bowden, Professor of Marketing and Consumer Behaviour, Macquarie University and Al Crawford, founder of Shapeshifter Consulting.

Among the areas the panel explored was how the situation will affect the consumer behaviour of different parts of the population, from the Mosman mortgagees with a Range Rover on an expensive lease, to those worrying about whether they can afford to buy a leg of lamb.

The industry was warned to get over its problem of being data rich and empathy poor, and the audience heard about the behavioural economic s of shrinkflation.

The event was sponsored by Howatson and Company. The podcast was edited by Abe’s Audio.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

The part advertising played in determining the election outcome

Did the media let down the public in how it covered the election campaign?

Vote night ratings winners

Labor’s media policy agenda

The last big US content deal goes into play

Are upfronts fading in relevance?

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

Betoota Advocate: Report: How F*g Embarrassing For All Of You

The Australian: ABC dominated ratings for the 2022 election

Judith Neilson Institute: Instruments and objectives: Explaining the News Media Bargaining Code

SMH: Fight for NBCUniversal content fires up as offers start rolling in

AP News: Broadcast TV’s reduced role made clear in fall presentations

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Designating the platforms and the missing media policies

Ooh Media’s Poly push

NITV splits its signal

SCA boss Grant Blackley says he’s not going anywhere

Netflix’s small tax bill

And if you’re looking for tickets to Unmade’s first event discussing marketing in a cost of living crisis, click here.

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

AFR: Pressure on Frydenberg to force Facebook to negotiate with publishers

Unmade: The media manifesto you won’t get next week

AFR: oOh!Media focused on stealing share of ad market from TV and digital

The Australian: NITV extends its national reach

The Australian: ‘I’m not facing axe’: Southern Cross boss

SMH: Netflix’s Australian tax bill was $868,000 last year

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

Don’t forget: If you haven’t yet bought a ticket for our first event, it takes place in Sydney in a week and a half on Tuesday May 24. The topic is Marketing in a Cost of Living Crisis. Tickets are $69, or just $10 for Unmade’s paying subscribers.

It’s a great panel. You can find out all the details here.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Election promises and media missteps

Was Facebook’s Australian unfriending a ‘hit job’?

Making sense of the Foxtel streaming numbers

New product boss for Nine

CHE Proximity fights for its biggest client

And if you’re looking for tickets to Unmade’s first event discussing marketing in a cost of living crisis, click here.

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

The Australian: The Social Hit Job

Unmade: What the new data tells us about Foxtel

AFR: Nine taps Telstra exec for new chief product role

AFR: AGL hunts for new ad agencies as Mike Cannon-Brookes disrupts demerger

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In today’s Unmade podcast, I talk to Chris Stephenson, the charismatic owner of one of the world’s most intriguing media planning brains.

During our conversation inside PHD’s London headquarters, Stephenson discusses his recent transition from APAC strategy chief to global chief marketing officer and the agency’s place within a crowded market.

He also discusses some of the principles explored in the media agency’s ninth book, Shift, exploring the changing marketing landscape.

PHD believes the marketing industry is undergoing the media equivalent of the Cambrian Explosion, the prehistoric moment when evolution rapidly accelerated. But, argues Stephenson, this increased complexity does not need to leave marketers overwhelmed - if they can tame them technology and make it serve them, rather than the other way round.

A reminder that Unmade’s first event, Marketing in a Cost of Living Crisis, takes place at Forrester’s in Surry Hills three weeks from now, on May 24 at 5pm. Even before this week’s interest rate rise, cost of living was already a topic in every household.

I’ll be moderating a panel featuring Optus CMO Melissa Hopkins, GroupM CEO Aimee Buchanan, Macquarie University’s Professor Jana Bowden, a leader in marketing research, and one of my favourite strategists, Shapeshifter founder Al Crawford.

Tickets are on sale now for $69, or $10 for paying Unmade members. Click here to book.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Media law becomes an election battleground

Will the public pay for ad-supported Netflix?

Making sense of Telstra’s $50m Fetch deal

News Corp buys into Stockhead

Why WPP merged Mediacom and Essence, and the Accenture Interactive global rebrand

And if you’re looking for tickets to Unmade’s first event discussing marketing in a cost of living crisis, click here.

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes in the UK and and Damian Francis in Australia. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

SMH: ‘Stakes are getting higher’: Labor says free sport broadcasts at risk

The Australian: Nine and Seven in the race for Olympic Games rights as Kerry Stokes lunches with IOC chief Thomas Bach

AFR: Users want discounts if Netflix introduces ads

Unmade: Why Telstra bought into Fetch

The Australian: News Corp buys Stockhead stake for focus on ASX-listed small cap companies

Marketing Week: Accenture Song is not a great rebrand, but it could be so much worse

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the latest Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features the final extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

In today’s chapter, we reach the end of the 12-year decade covered in the book.

Via the News Media Bargaining Code, the government institutes a shakedown of the digital behemoths. Google twigs quickly, finding ways to hand over cash to Australia’s big publishers. Facebook is slower on the uptake before boss Mark Zuckerberg eventually does a deal with treasurer Josh Frydenberg.

And in North Sydney, Nine gets ready to announce its news boss.

If you enjoyed hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

SCA calls in headhunters for Grant Blackley’s successor

Twitter board agrees to sell to Elon Musk

CarExpert takes the war to its rivals

Netflix had a bad week; CNN+ had a worse one

WPP’s giant e-commerce play

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes in the UK and and Damian Francis in Australia. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

SMH: Korn Ferry hired in Southern Cross succession planning effort

BBC News: Elon Musk strikes deal to buy Twitter for $44bn

AFR: CarExpert raising $10m to buy Price My Car; IPO next

Unmade: The Netflix U-Turn

Sunday Times of London: WPP’s plan to run brands’ online stores

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the latest Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features the penultimate extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

In today’s chapter, we reach 2020. It was shaping up to be a typical year for the media, with the Olympics set to boost ad spend, but media bosses complaining they were still having to scrap for every dollar.

And then, on Friday 13 March, Covid upended everything. The Melbourne Grand Prix was cancelled and the shutdowns began.

Cinema was hit first and hardest. Then out of home advertising. Bauer Media began to feel an extreme case of buyers remorse in its agreement to purchase Pacific Magazines. In television, Ten cut its on air talent while Seven and Nine negotiated their sports rights costs downwards. News Corp axed most of its community newspapers, with a devastating impact on local communities.

There had never been a year like it

If you’ve been enjoying hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

AFL kicks off rights battle;

The post-Easter TV ratings war starts early;

Is Elon Musk serious about owning Twitter?

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes in the UK, and friend-of-the-podcast Abe Udy in Australia. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

SMH / The Age: AFL open to alternatives as McLachlan targets one last agreement

Unmade: Why Elon Musk’s Twitter takeover will probably fail

Via Nine: Latest TV ratings data

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the latest Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features another extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

In today’s chapter, I examine the period when the negative impact on democracy of social media platforms becomes impossible to ignore. The Cambridge Analytics scandal demonstrates Facebook’s carelessness with user data, while Brexit and the election of Donald Trump prove to be propelled by disinformation shared on the platform.

Within the media industry, Facebook’s encouragement of publishers to pivot to on-platform video proves to be based on untrue metrics, while the questionable credibility of influencers is brought into focus.

Then comes a new low. A mob - driven on by Donald Trump on Twitter, QAnon conspiracy theorists, and a partisan Fox News, launches a coup attempt in Washington, trying to overturn the result of the US election.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

All the latest TV developments: Foxtel IPO is pulled; UK government prepares to float Channel 4; NBCU Oz content rights up for grabs; Battle for the CTV homescreen;

What the six week election campaign means for the media;

Ray Hadley’s attack on SCA management

How WPP fell behind

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes in the UK and and Damian Francis in Australia. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

The Australian: Ukraine war, inflation and interest rates delay Foxtel IPO

The SMH: Foxtel IPO plans back on hold

The AFR: Morrison government considers banning TV fee for placement

Sunday Times: What the future holds for Channel 4

The Australian: ‘Disaster after disaster’: Hadley’s brutal radio sledge

Unmade: How Omnicom and Publicis overtook WPP in financial performance

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In today’s chapter, I explore the aftermath of the merger between Nine and Fairfax Media.

The biggest loose end to tie up was what to to with the community newspapers division. Some of the country’s most celebrated regional newspapers - the likes of The Canberra Times, The Newcastle Herald, Illawarra Mercury and Bendigo Advertiser - were about to get a new owner. It was an opportunity for Antony Catalano and business partner Alex Waislitz to pick up a bargain.

And the duo had bigger ambitions for Australian Community Media - they wanted to be in television too. They made a move that scuppered Seven West Media’s plans to take control of Prime through a cash-free, share-based merger.

Nine had other things on its mind - taking full control of Macquarie Media, owner of Melbourne’s 3AW and Sydney’s 2GB, the home of controversial breakfast host Alan Jones. For Nine, it was also time to bring Karl Stefanovic home to Today, while CEO Hugh Marks was about to make an imperfect exit.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

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The guest on today’s edition of The Unmade podcast is Luke Girgis, CEO of The Brag Media, which has quickly become the dominant publisher in the Australian music industry.

He talks to Unmade’s Tim Burrowes about how The Brag Media came about, why they eventually passed on buying Junkee, and how Variety will be the company’s bridgehead into the screen industry.

Transcript:

Tim Burrowes:
Welcome to unmade. I'm Tim Burrowes. My guest today is Luke Girgis, the CEO of Brag Media. Luke, welcome along. Now the reason for chatting this week is you've just picked up the Australian franchise of the very storied business title, Variety, and we will talk about that in a minute. But firstly, I'd love to just talk a bit about the story of Brag Media, because it feels like in a very short time, you've gone very fast. How do you tell the story so far?
Luke Girgis:
Well, before that, Tim, I just want to give you a bit of a credit for Unmade. How long have you been doing Unmade for?
Tim Burrowes:
Unmade, we started back in September, properly. So I guess that's about pretty much nine months.
Luke Girgis:
Crazy. I'm so impressed with how you've built it in nine months. It's actually incredible. It's the thing that I read every time it hits my inbox. So huge credit to you.
Tim Burrowes:
Ah, you're very kind. Thank you.
Luke Girgis:
Brag Media I started in 2017, and was actually an idea that I had when I worked at a record company because I saw how much money, how much of our marketing budget we were spending on publishers promoting records. And I thought, these publishers are kind of underperforming and I wonder how much it would cost to actually just buy them and run them ourselves, maybe turn them profitable and then have this asset that is profitable on its own. But it also allows us to market our artists through for free. And I kind of did some maths and we could buy one or two of them at kind of two years our marketing budget. And I thought, this feels like a no brainer. Maybe I'm stupid.
Luke Girgis:
So I put together a business plan, worked on it for about three months, took it to my boss. She told me to get fucked, and I did, and met my co-founder Sam Benjamin. We looked at a lot of things. We even looked at starting festivals, running management businesses, running a record label. We looked at a whole bunch of these things, but ultimately, we thought, we want to do it all. The Brag Media's mission is to be ubiquitous with Australian culture, be at the center of culture.
Luke Girgis:
So if we want to live to that mission, we need to do it all. We need to be running events. We need to be running record companies. We need to be managing talent. We need to be doing all these things. And if we have a thriving publishing business at the center of all of that, it's going to make all of those other plays a lot more fruitful. And that's what we started with. We started with the publishing business.
Tim Burrowes:
Now that's really interesting, because I presume from that, by coming at it from that direction, would be different to someone coming from a more traditional publishing background who would probably start with, okay, display advertising, what revenue can we bring from that? Paid audience, where can we bring from that? Whereas I presume you are thinking much more laterally around what people would loosely call content marketing budgets, and that sort of thing. So I imagine your kind of revenue streams probably look quite different to the traditional.
Luke Girgis:
Yeah. That's certainly what I've learned. I didn't kind of know that coming into it. When I first started, I remember day one, Poppy Reid, our editor in chief, I remember going, "Wait, what's the difference between editing and subediting?" I didn't know anything. And so we've built this what business, which appears to be, relatively speaking, super diversified in publishing and media, with it. And it's really defensible as well. I feel like it'd be very hard to come in and compete with what we've built.
Luke Girgis:
And yeah, we certainly survived COVID, which is a huge win, and even just surviving it's great, but we've actually grew 200% year on year in revenue. So that all seemed to have been possible because of maybe my ignorance in publishing. And I didn't go that traditional route, but it wasn't like ... I don't feel like a genius for it. I just didn't know any different.
Tim Burrowes:
Luke, honestly, when you try something new in publishing, not being aware that the world would consider it a bad idea is sometimes quite a big advantage, I know I've discovered in the past sometimes. So where are you at now in terms of scale? I know it's not the ultimate measure, particularly when you use freelancers, but what's your current kind of staff number, for instance?
Luke Girgis:
I think full time we have about 25, but a lot of casuals and a lot of freelancers. That's probably a question for Poppy Reid and Joel King, but yeah, it feels about 25, I think.
Tim Burrowes:
So I'm guessing you must have a turnover, what? Sort of four or five million or something like that?
Luke Girgis:
I don't know if Sam Benjamin, my co-founder wants me to disclose that, but it's well more than that. It's a lot more than that.
Tim Burrowes:
Right. Okay. Well, you can't blame me for having a little guess, as well.
Luke Girgis:
Oh, I would've had a swing too.
Tim Burrowes:
Okay. Well, let's talk about Variety, which is the latest member of the stable. And this is interesting, because Variety as we would think of it from the US, its sweet spot was of the screen industry and of Hollywood. So it's a sort of new, or at the very least kind of peripheral addition for you. Because up to now I guess your center spot, although general entertainment, has been around the music industry. So why does Variety make sense?
Luke Girgis:
So you are right on that. We're kind of famous for our music. That's how we started. But it's certainly not where we're at now. So we have a huge gaming network as well. The Variety launch makes sense when you understand that sort of mission statement to be ubiquitous with Australian culture. We want to be everywhere Australians' passion points are. We identified that music was the number one interest for Australians. So that's where we started. Also helps that I'm a music nut, and have been in the music industry for 15 years.
Luke Girgis:
But we started with music. That's what we're experts in. Then we've expanded out into gaming and we have a really strong gaming network with the acquisition of Epic Digital, and we've also got fashion now with HYPEBEAST. And so the next frontier is screen. It is film. And we've been wrapping Variety for about a year now, just monetizing the Australian traffic. You might need to fact check me on this. I've got to get the exact numbers, but it's about a million Australians already read Variety every month.
Luke Girgis:
I think it might be 800,000. Something like that. I should have checked before we got on this call, but a lot of Australians read it already. And we've seen a lot of success commercially with the Variety brand without us even publishing one story. So the adding Variety, adding screen to our stable, when you think about what our mission is and the commercial success we've already had with that brand, doesn't seem as left field as I think it's maybe internally as it might seem externally.
Tim Burrowes:
Yeah. And something I'd be interested to get your thoughts on is, when I think about the sector, I have slight post-traumatic stress disorder from earlier in my time when I was one of the owners of Mumbrella, we bought Encore, which was the Australian version of Variety, I suppose. So even back in the day, we actually wrecked Variety ourselves for a while, actually. So we were always glad when they did their Australian edition in the kind of US version of Hollywood. And we got to sell in all those full page ads for the Australian studios.
Tim Burrowes:
But something we found, and ... I look back now and I would describe the way we came to it slightly arrogant, that we felt we knew the communications industry quite well. And this felt like a bit of a parallel world, that we wrote about, certainly, on the screen content already. And I guess remember I got this sense that certainly the Australian screen industry was very, very clubby, and it felt like there was this real attitude of, well, who the hell are you? You've not been in the production sector for 20 years. So what are your kind of credentials for writing about and being of this world?
Tim Burrowes:
And it felt like we never actually got to a point where we were particularly accepted as of that industry. So I guess the question is, how are you thinking about breaking into that world?
Luke Girgis:
When was that? What year was all of that happening?
Tim Burrowes:
This would've been long before streaming. So you were talking, I'm going to guess about 2012, 2013, something like that, long enough ago that we were still in print.
Luke Girgis:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the industry's changed a lot since then. It's only in terms of revenue, like 1.9 billion dollars in production in Australia last year. It's just insane. There's never been more money in Australia in this industry. Therefore, it's never been bigger. So potentially you might be right, that it is very clubby. The music industry is enormous here, and it is very clubby. But I think we're navigating that in two ways. One, we are ... I'm not going to be a Variety writer, I can promise you. We've got some real industry experts contributing and on staff.
Luke Girgis:
And Jake, our B2B trade editor, is editing Variety. And he's been a passionate fan of this brand for as long as I've known him, which is about a decade. He always talks about Variety and said one day he dreams to work with Variety. And it's just so happened that he is now. And that's exciting. So we have industry experts working on it, but the market is so different now, Tim. Back in the day, it was all very small industry in terms of market cap and revenue and all of that.
Luke Girgis:
So there is a lot more room for politics to disrupt things, but when there's so much money being put into an industry, and there are some great trade blogs out there and trade websites out there. But there's nothing as iconic and as widely respected as Variety in the Australian market right now. I mean, in the world, really. It's the most respected screen publication in the world. So to bring that to Australia, I think with where the industry is now, versus when you guys were representing it, we're just very fortunate of timing, I think, is the answer. And we're very excited about that.
Tim Burrowes:
And I suppose that's certainly true. If there's one story of the screen industry over the last, well, probably 30 or 40 years, has been, it feels like it's kind of feast or famine. There were some amazing tax breaks for the screen industry in the seventies. Right now, of course, we're in this kind of golden period of production funding because there's so much streaming investment going on at the moment, which feels like what's driving the screen sector.
Tim Burrowes:
Now that arguably over-investment in streaming is perhaps peaking now. Does the plan for Variety work as well with a smaller industry, if it turns out it is moving to the other side of the cycle?
Luke Girgis:
If it retracts, yeah. Look, the thing that we learned with launching music publications, and I think we're going to take a lot of lessons from that, is that if we were relying on the music industry to fund our music titles, we would've died like everybody else. And so, although it was true pre-COVID that 50% of our revenue came from the music industry, we have increased our revenue since then by over 200%, as I mentioned before. And now the revenue that comes from the music industry on our music titles represents less than 5%.
Luke Girgis:
And that was always our goal to get there. We were just trying to figure out how to achieve it, and we finally did. And I think that is the lens that we are looking at with Variety. We don't want to rely on the film industry or the screen industry to fund Variety. We want to focus on servicing it. Now, if revenue comes from that industry, fantastic. But that is not going to be how we live and die.
Tim Burrowes:
And I presume that will be some of the tap dance as well, is you refer to that maybe 800,000 number that you're getting in terms of visits. Now, clearly the industry itself isn't that big, which suggests quite a big consumer audience landing there because, hey, look, it's a world they're interested in as consumers. But presumably your sales model will be about having an audience of industry insiders, people working within the industry.
Tim Burrowes:
So how are you thinking about the sort of content you shoot for? Because presumably it'll be quite easy to just do, here's the latest trailer for the latest Marvel movies just dropped, and get some easy traffic. But that's not going to really garner you that audience of insiders. So how are you thinking about your focus on the editorial content?
Luke Girgis:
Yeah, so primarily, Variety's been around for 116 years servicing the screen industry and the professionals that live within it at the highest executive levels. So there is a certain type of content and certain level of detail and certain level of education and insight you need to provide to continue and engage those audience. And that is unwavering. But what I think has changed, and not changed actually, has been in addition to over the last maybe decade or so is that Variety has started engaging the most passionate and diehard film fans and bringing them into the tent as well.
Luke Girgis:
And then slowly turning sort of half interested film fans into diehard film fans. And so you have this highly passionate consumer audience, as well as the executive audience. And we do need to run ... that's not the same content obviously. But there is content, that you can run a piece of content that appeals to both audiences, but then you also need to run separate content lines that appeal to one and the other. And that's something that we are borrowing that strategy from the US to launch. And we will evolve that strategy as we get more data and more learnings for the Australian market.
Tim Burrowes:
And I take it that rather than just being fed by press releases, you'll look to break news. What sort of editorial resource are you putting behind that?
Luke Girgis:
I really wish Jake, our editor was on this call. So he's got the playbook. At a high level, we've got three incredible writers plus Jake on Variety, and a contributing team. So I don't know how big that contributing team is and what the details of it are. But there's a good team behind it and we're definitely going to launch with quality, not quantity. So you don't come to Variety for every time someone interesting kind of sneezes or whatever. That's not going to be our play. We're going to really launch with quality first, and then as we learn and as we grow, so will the volume of content that we produce.
Tim Burrowes:
And initially, it's digital, but there are plans for there to be a print edition as well.
Luke Girgis:
Absolutely, yeah. We've had a lot of success with the Rolling Stone print mag. So we are just going to take all the learnings from that.
Tim Burrowes:
And do you have a sense of how many editions a year you would hope to put out of the print version?
Luke Girgis:
Going to keep that sort of close to our chest for now, not because I want to keep things a secret, but we're still deciding. We will most likely do our first edition this year. So if you look at Rolling Stone, just a bit of a clue on how we're thinking about things, we do four issues a year with Rolling Stone, and one issue a year is our collector's edition. So first year, we did the 50 greatest Australian artists of all time. The second year, we did the 200 greatest albums of all time.
Luke Girgis:
Both of those issues outsold both in terms of advertisers and in terms of readers, and then new subscribers, I would say by a factor of five, at least. Again, I don't have the number on me, but it's just a massively out-sized return on those collector's editions. So it's that kind of learning and that kind of thinking that we're going to bring to Variety.
Tim Burrowes:
And it's worth mentioning that Rolling Stone and Variety have the same owner in the US, which is where you've done the franchise deal with.
Luke Girgis:
And that's why we have such confidence to keep investing with these guys, because they're in incredible. The PMC team in the US are an unbelievably professional and awesome team to work with. They are just so passionate about our success. So it's just so incredible. I've heard horror stories about JVing with international offices and licenses and whatever, and all those kind of different versions, many times. And I've just not experienced even a little bit of that with PMC. They're just an incredible company.
Tim Burrowes:
And what is this one? Is it a straight franchise arrangement or is it a JV?
Luke Girgis:
It's structured as a license, but a 30 year one. It's very long, with options to extend. So yeah, we're not going anywhere.
Tim Burrowes:
And you just share a portion of revenue, presumably, based on all of the activities of the brands?
Luke Girgis:
Yeah. So they have a bunch of obligations to us in terms of resource support, access, all of those things. And then we pay a percentage of our revenue back to them.
Tim Burrowes:
Which is a long time since I've done one of these deals. But back in the day, I seem to remember a number of like 8% or something. Is that still broadly the ballpark these conversations happen in?
Luke Girgis:
Yeah. The PMC NDA prevents me from confirming or denying, but I wouldn't say you are very far off, but yeah. I can't give you any extra in the comment.
Tim Burrowes:
And then a few other plans you've got include an awards, the Variety brand, and a power list as well.
Luke Girgis:
Yeah. Again, learning from what we are doing with Rolling Stone and our other brands, our events business is a meaningful part of our revenue growth. So we see the Variety brand as something that both consumers and trade are going to really resonate with. And that gives us a massive opportunity in events. And so we have a lot of plans for next year and over the next five years on how we're going to grow the Variety events business.
Tim Burrowes:
Now, you've mentioned a couple of times Poppy Reid, who leads the editorial output. I was watching a video stream she did a few weeks back for the Australian Institute of Music, where she talked about how you recruited her and how when you told her your plans for the company in the first place, she thought you were crazy. How did you change her mind?
Luke Girgis:
I don't know. I actually tried to talk her out of taking the job, to be honest. I was like, "Look, we might be bankrupt in six months. I don't know what I'm doing here." I was really nervous because ... it's very hard to get a senior journalist job in music. All she ever wanted to do in her life is write in music. And she had an incredible trade job. And I was like, "You're going to leave that security and come to me? I don't know what the hell I'm doing."
Luke Girgis:
But I think she is really driven by professional development and growth. And I think she felt like she sort of hit a ceiling where she was at, and she thought it was worth the risk to come over. I think, actually, I do know the answer. What she said to me was if I come over and we go bankrupt in six months, I will have learnt more in that six months than five more years where I am. She rolled the dice. I am so grateful she did. There's so much of this business that wouldn't exist without her. She runs the whole place. I'm just forever grateful that she took that chance, and how committed she is to the business.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, she also said in that chat that you want her to be the CEO. So what's the timeline for that?
Luke Girgis:
I wanted to give her the option. I don't know if she still has those kind of ambitions now. I think she's just really found her groove as an editor in chief, and I think she's also learned a lot of the b**t CEOs have to do, which she might not want to deal with. So I don't know. I guess that's an evolving thing. You have to ask her that, maybe in a different interview, but yeah. It's something that I was kicking around with her back in the day, for sure.
Tim Burrowes:
And you've obviously got your own appetite for entrepreneurialism beyond Brag Media as well, Lamp Post Capital. That's something else that you've done, which is a fund for making investments in startups. What's the model of Lamp Post?
Luke Girgis:
This is something I'm actually really excited about, and has a really interesting story. So our talent management division manages a creator by the name of Simone Giertz. She's based in LA. She's the largest female STEM creator on the planet. So she's got this enormous YouTube following. She's an inventor. She creates inventions and puts them on her channel, ends up on late shows, et cetera. A big fan of Simone is Alexis Ohanian, who is the Reddit founder. And he also happens to be married to Serena Williams, the tennis player.
Luke Girgis:
And when he was in Australia, I went down to Melbourne and had coffee with him, and was swapping notes about what he's doing and what I'm doing and all of that. And he had the idea of basically anchoring a fund that Simone and I would start. So he basically said, "Well, look, why don't you and Simone start a fund together? I will anchor it. I'll put in 500,000. You can make it a million dollar fund and raise another 500,000 on top of that, so it's a million dollar fund, and go out and see if you can find some incredible founders and support them to their success."
Luke Girgis:
Obviously, the appeal is that Simone, I mean, she's a genius. She's a lot smarter than me at a lot of things, both creatively, as well as in terms of all the inventions she does. In terms of products, she's amazing, but she also has this incredible creative brand. I always said if she wasn't a creator herself, she'd be an executive at a creative agency or something. So she's a genius in that sense. And then obviously I've got a lot of experience building businesses, and we have a really big media business here that could be very helpful to founders.
Luke Girgis:
So those two things combined, we go out and Simone and I try and find founders we love building incredible products that we think can go on to be icons of their industry, the Apple of whatever they're doing or the Tesla of whatever they're doing. And very early stage, pre-revenue, just building a product. Is there something here that could it be incredible? And if we both believe in it, then we'll bet on it. And we'll use our fund to invest in the company. It's not huge investments, so million dollar funds. Write checks of anything between 10 to 50,000.
Luke Girgis:
So it's not going to change anyone's life, but what we're saying is, "Hey, let us put a little bit of money in, and then also let us help you." And that's the value I think we can add. So it's more about the help we give than the money that we give. But-
Tim Burrowes:
And how many investments have you made so far?
Luke Girgis:
We have made three investments so far, two in the creator economy, one which is a company called Novel, whose slogan is, "The Shopify for NFT should just be on Shopify," and they've built a product to be able to just sell and create and buy NFTs in an incredibly user-friendly way. The other one is Fourthwall, which is like a Shopify competitor, but specifically built for creators. So Simone uses Fourthwall, because they're an unbelievable product. Herself and the biggest creators in the world use them.
Luke Girgis:
And then the last one is this company called Cana. I can explain it to you quickly, but you won't believe it. So everyone should just look it up. It is a drink printing machine that prints any drink you want in your kitchen with just putting in some water. It'll print beer, wine, coffee, juice, energy drinks. It is the most incredible futuristic thing I've ever seen. It will be bigger than the iPhone if they pull this off. And we've put a bet on that.
Tim Burrowes:
And these bets are not necessarily Australian companies. They could be global companies.
Luke Girgis:
Yeah. Those three are all American. Yeah.
Tim Burrowes:
Interesting. Do you see opportunities for investing within Australia?
Luke Girgis:
Absolutely. Yeah, I've been meeting with Australian founders, like all the time. We haven't made an investment yet, but I really want to, so if there's any Australian founders out there that send me an email, I'm very easy to find and I'd love to hear what you're working on.
Tim Burrowes:
And let's go back to Variety and Brag. And I suppose this as well, how do you think about managing conflict? And I suppose where I come at this from is, I presume that Variety must have some pretty strict rules given their own excellent editorial reputation. Yet the music industry sort of often feels the person who reps an artist might also have more fingers in the pie as well. So when you kind of think about that sort of pure editorial model of years gone by, is that just out of date now?
Luke Girgis:
Like I said, I'm very new to this industry. So I don't actually have much of a reference on what it was like back in the day. We have just come into it where we feel like there's a conflict. So we're managing Simone Giertz, and she's about to release a huge products line, product business. We take it to the editorial team. If it's something that they would write about, they write about it. If it's not, then we need to book a campaign. And so we book a campaign through the system like we would any other client. The record labels spend with us all the time to promote artists.
Luke Girgis:
So my brother has a record label. When he wants to run a campaign with us, he runs the campaign like everybody else. So that's the kind of way, I think people can overthink it. We just operate with our own stuff like we would anybody else. And we follow the editorial rules of whatever that publication is.
Tim Burrowes:
Understood. And where do you go from here? Is it more verticals within the wider entertainment vertical? Is it doing the same again in another country? What are you thinking about for the next stage of growth?
Luke Girgis:
The immediate next stage of growth is, if you go onto the Brag Media website, you'll see all the buckets in which we do work. And that is basically to fulfill our mission, to be ubiquitous with Australian culture. So what does that mean? That means where people are, if people go to events, we need to be doing events. So growing our events business is a big focus of ours. And it's something that we've had a lot of success with over the last year, growing our publishing business, continuing to grow the network. We now reach eight million Australians every month, which is 32% of the Australian population. How do we get to 50%?
Luke Girgis:
That is something that we're thinking about. We have a creative agency, we have a media agency where we help. When I say media agency, it's not to compete with the existing media agencies out there, but ... there's a lot of people that aren't Coca-Cola that need ... Like we are working with Send, for example, a grocery company, helping them. We help them with all their outdoor buying and all of that sort of stuff when they first launched, just because they're a startup and they needed another startup business to help them. And we had a lot of levers to pull. So we helped them there.
Luke Girgis:
And then we also are launching a consumer app to help people find gigs, go to gigs and make the live music industry a lot more prosperous coming out of COVID. So there's a lot of levers that we're pulling there, and that's our immediate growth. It's certainly not an international ambition yet.
Tim Burrowes:
And just touching on that sort of being of Australian culture, you were reported as one of the interested parties in Junkee, when that was for sale, when Ooh Media was selling that. Now, that went to the RACAT Group in the end. Did you come close to buying that, do you know?
Luke Girgis:
Yeah. Well look, depends on how you define close. We were one of the last couple, I think.
Tim Burrowes:
Yeah. I guess RACAT, in the end, it came out, they paid 2.5 million for it. I guess, was your bid anywhere near that?
Luke Girgis:
We had a seven figure bid, but I wouldn't say it was near that. But that's not to say it wasn't worth that. I think the Junkee brand's really good and we were really looking at it seriously, but there were a couple of things that prevented us from getting to that level, which I think it's worth that for sure. I think it's probably worth more than that, if I'm being honest. We didn't get up to that level because, as you saw, we announced two other acquisitions at the time. So there was an opportunity cost there and we thought we could get a faster growth out of the other two acquisitions than Junkee, and too, Junkee was sincerely very different to what we were currently doing.
Luke Girgis:
They do news. They do politics. We don't touch that. We touch, at the moment, we're all geared up for passion points, gaming, music, film. We're very deliberately not doing any hard news, any politics, any of that stuff. If we do touch it, it's because it intersects with an artist or a film star or whatever. So it was a huge deviation in our content focus. And we also had two other acquisitions that were distracting us at the time. So that explains, I think, why we didn't follow through there.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, Luke, best of luck with Variety, and thank you very much for your time.
Luke Girgis:
Thanks, Tim.
Tim Burrowes:
Today's podcast was produced with the support of Abe's Audio. More soon. Toodlepip.
Speaker 4:
Unmade.
Speaker 5:
Podcast edit by Abe's Audio.

Audio production on Media Unmade was courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

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Welcome to Unmade’s Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

Crunch time for Foxtel Group;

Sir Martin Sorrell’s audit problem;

Will Amazon be able to grab The Olympics?;

Clive Palmer’s big media spend;

How Drive to Survive revived Formula One

Today’s episode features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes in the UK and and Damian Francis in Australia. As always, we’d love to hear what you think at letters@unmade.media

Further reading:

AFR: Lizzie Young to leave Nine for ad startup

SMH: Scale of ABC social media disciplinary action revealed

The Australian: Morrison government empowers ACMA to help stop ‘harmful’ online content

The Australian: The Australian launches new daily podcast to lead from The Front

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In today’s chapter, Nick Chan - the man who could have turned around the (mis)fortunes of Bauer Media in Australia - falls out with his German masters and abruptly walks away.

His successor Paul Dykzeul sets about the cost cutting and “hard stuff” needed to get the company back on track before heading into retirement.

And new CEO Brendon Hill opens the door to consolidation. Seven West Media, fighting to cut its debt pile, agrees in late 2019 to sell Pacific Magazines to Bauer Media.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Thursday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In the latest edition of Unmade’s Start The Week podcast, Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis talk about developments in the world of media and marketing that broke over the weekend and this morning.

Today’s episode deals with sexual harassment in the media and marketing industry. If you or someone you care about needs support, please contact 1800 RESPECT at 1800 737 732. In an emergency, call 000.

Today’s topics:

The MD of one of Australia’s largest independent creative agencies is publicly named as a sexual predator;

Australia’s independent publishers plan to go dark as part of a attempt to grab some of the Google and Facebook digital dollars;

Commercial Radio Australia reveals its new CEO

Further reading:

AFR: Are Media acquires e-commerce player as it seeks to diversify revenue

SMH: Ratings data shows shift in way audiences watch reality TV

Unmade: Best of the Week: Foxtel's float runs out of road as Telstra switches horses to Fetch

The Drum: WPP pulls out of Russia as rival holding companies review operations

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

Message us: letters@unmade.media

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s new Start the Week podcast, dedicated to looking ahead to the week in media and marketing.

Today’s topics:

What was the boss of Netflix doing in Australia?;

Variety mag coming to Australia;

Why The Iconic ditched its marketing boss role

What we learned about the ASX companies last week

Does it matter that Ten was sixth channel on Saturday night?

John Croll’s return to the media monitoring market

This marks the pilot episode of Start the Week, and features Unmade’s Tim Burrowes and Damian Francis.

Further reading:

Netflix boss Reed Hastings on ‘Byron Baes’, regulators, and the looming streaming ‘shakeout’ - SMH

Entertainment outlet Variety set for local shores - SMH

Goodbye chief marketing officer, hello new era - The Australian

104 Weeks Later - Unmade

‘Not an option’: Media monitoring veteran leaving Australia behind - AFR

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In today’s chapter, we reach the end of Fairfax Media’s 177-year-old story.

Five years ago, the management of Fairfax Media was running out of time. Although the company’s secret blue team was almost ready to take control of the metro newspapers with their new operating model, the February 2017 ASX update was going to show profitability crashing. Unless the board had a new piece of news to offer, the share price would crash too. So it was time to float Domain.

Antony Catalano, who was CEO of Domain, hated the plan, and had no respect for chairman Nick Falloon. Not long after the float, the pair fell out, with Catalano leaving the company. He offered Falloon some harsh advice on how technology works, as he walked out of the door.

And then came Project Wolfgang, the deal that rewrote Australia’s media landscape. In July 2018, Nine and Fairfax Media revealed that they had agreed a merger. Nine would be the senior partner, with CEO Hugh Marks in charge of the industry’s newest 800 pound gorilla.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Thursday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

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In today’s chapter, we enter the final act of Unmade: The Remaking.

By 2017, it seemed that Network Ten was becoming a de facto part of the extended News Corp empire, seven years after Lachlan Murdoch first invested. News Corp’s Foxtel had taken a 15% stake alongside Lachlan’s 9%. Foxtel’s sales house MCN had taken over Ten’s media sales, and in turn Ten had taken a 25% stake in MCN. Ten and Foxtel were also co-commissioning shows like Gogglebox.

The final hurdle were changes to the media ownership laws, which the Coalition was helpfully working on repealing.

But the plan was about to meet a couple of unexpected hurdles. Ten’s directors were fighting a little too hard to avoid calling in the administrators, and content supplier CBS, one of Ten’s biggest creditors, was preparing an alternative plan.

The result was a shock change in ownership that few saw coming.

If you aren’t yet receiving your own copy of the Unmade email, you can sign up for free.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Thursday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Unmade

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In today’s chapter - the last in the book’s second act, we focus on radio. We explore the historic moment when Australia’s radio landscape was upended. In a move that triggered a decade of humiliation for the once-dominant 2DayFM, owner Southern Cross Austereo allowed its top rating Sydney team of Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson to walk away.

After a series of secret meetings - and one of the biggest gambles of the decade by Australian Radio Network boss Ciaran Davis - The Kyle & Jackie O Show moved to the brand new station of Kiis FM.

Along the way, the news almost leaked early after the creative agency working on the rebrand of Mix FM to Kiis failed to close the blinds.

It was the worst of times for SCA. In Sydney, a succession of 2DayFM teams tried and failed to fill the void. In Melbourne, Triple M Hot Breakfast host Eddie McGuire became entangled in a racism row after comparing AFL player Adam Goodes, an Indigenous Australian, to King Kong.

And ARN gambled again in Melbourne, taking the risky move of hiring British radio star Christian O’Connell to host the breakfast show on Gold 104.3.

If you aren’t yet receiving your own copy of the Unmade email, you can sign up for free.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Thursday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

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Welcome to the latest edition of the Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features another extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

In today’s episode we explore the booms and bubbles that consumed Australia’s media industry in the previous decade.

We explore the cautionary tale of how Alex Malley, the CEO of accountancy industry body CPA, become Australia’s content marketing poster child by using his organisation’s massive marketing budget to make himself famous. It all came undone after The Australian Financial Review’s Rear Window columnist Joe Aston began asking hard questions.

Still on the subject of content marketing, we tackle the story of how King Content went from being Australia’s hottest agency to a disastrous acquisition for Isentia.

And away from the bubbles, the digitisation of the outdoor industry proved to be a boom. QMS Media entered the stage. Ooh Media and APN Outdoor did a merger deal, only for it to be scuppered by the regulator. Adshel was snapped up. And James Warburton returned to media for a brief, rehabilatory, stint at APN Outdoor.

Thanks for subscribing to Unmade.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Thursday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

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In today’s episode we examine a story of mismanagement, structural change and bad luck. In the space of a decade, Australia went from having the greatest number of magazine readers per capita to one of the most challenged markets in the English speaking world. But it didn’t need to be that way.

The Packer family’s once great ACP fell in to the hands of the Europe-based Bauer Media. What followed was a conveyor belt of CEOs, magazine closures and advertising exodus.

Not that things were much better in the rest of the market where Seven West Media’s Pacific Magazines and News Corp’s News Life Media had their own challenges, leaving the medium unable to collectively market itself to the media agency world.

Thanks for subscribing to Unmade.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Friday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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We have now reached the half way point of the book’s 26 chapters. And we are at a pivotal point for the TV industry.

The chapter opens with the day the now notorious “Jacketgate” video was leaked to Mumbrella.

The action then switches to the arrival of Hugh Marks, as the newly appointed boss of Nine, and his new strategy for the TV business. He soon faces a career-threatening crisis when a 60 Minutes crew is arrested in Lebanon after they get involved in a child custody battle.

Things were just as bad at Seven, with CEO Tim Worner’s affair revealed in the newspapers.

And the streaming services were on the rise. Quickflix moved too soon and went broke. Foxtel and Seven blew their attempt with their joint venture Presto. And Nine and Fairfax’s JV Stan started strongly, even as Netflix finally landed in Australia.

Meanwhile, Nine’s regional affiliate WIN was taking its partner to court over the streaming of Nine Now, and ad-supported streaming was getting off to a stuttering start.

One of the big shifts of the TV landscape was also in play. Nine was plotting a move to ditch the cricket and switch to the tennis.

And all of the media owners were lobbying the government to change the ownership laws.

Thanks for subscribing to Unmade.

If you enjoy hearing the podcast, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Friday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the latest edition of the Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features another free extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

One of the things I was fascinated to learn in researching Media Unmade was the atmosphere in Kim Williams’ big office in News Corp’s Holt Street headquarters the day he told his team he was leaving. He may have earned the opposition of the company’s editors, but his inner circle were true believers. Until I wrote the book, I don’t think it was in the public domain that Williams had wept when he told his team the news. On as an emotional and tiring day as that, there’s no shame there.

Even now, I can’t make up my mind whether the company would be in a stronger position if Williams had been able to see through his restructuring, or whether his challenge to state-based autonomy would have wiped out local advertising in the long term.

This chapter also covers the 2013 stock split that saw News Ltd become News Corp Australia, and the creation of 21st Century Fox. As I wrote in Unmade yesterday, the split, which was lucrative for shareholders, was an example of Rupert Murdoch’s deal making genius.

It was a busy time for News Corp. Michael Miller left. Lachlan Murdoch returned. Miller came back.

Then there were the shenanigans after the NRL left Foxtel out in the cold. When News Corp goes to war with someone it really goes to war with someone.

Unmade Index - down again

The second day of the Unmade Index saw Australia’s media and marketing stocks take another battering.

Yesterday saw another 2.3% wiped off the value of the ASX-listed media and marketing companies.

HT&E was the only company to improve its share price, while real estate platform Domain Group slumped 6.5% as speculation grows of a slowdown in the property market. Ooh Media’s market capitalisation fell below $1bn, while Southern Cross Austereo is now trading close to its lowest point in a year.

Today’s audio chapter of Media Unmade is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available only to paying subscribers to Unmade. The paid tier is available from $65 per month.

If you enjoy hearing it, please do give it a five star rating on whichever podcasting app you use. That helps other people find it, and gives me some much needed validation.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Time to let you go about your Friday. Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s chapter showcases the best and worst of Lachlan Murdoch’s media achievements over the last decade.

In radio, he found a great deal of success, buying DMG Radio and turning it into Nova Entertainment. Radio programmer Paul Jackson was recruited from the UK to launch Smooth FM (and kill off Classic Rock).

In television, it was a catastrophe, with the hasty firing of Grant Blackley leading to Murdoch having to spend a year as CEO at Ten after bungling the poaching of Seven’s James Warburton who was forced to sit out a lengthy gardening leave.

Murdoch lost Ten’s AFL rights and failed to get any of the NRL rights, the new show Breakfast was a ratings disaster, and Wake Up did even worse.

But there was a masterplan - to take control of the company, and fold it into the News Corp empire. Then the Ten board called in the administrators…

Today’s chapter is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available only to paying subscribers to Unmade. The paid tier is available from $65 per month.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Happy New Year.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Today’s chapter tells the story of Fairfax Media at rock bottom.

It opens at a deserted Domain, as the company’s new events push gets off to a disastrous start with nobody showing up for Spectrum Now festival.

The chapter recalls Fairfax Media at rock bottom in 2012 with the redundancy cull of a generation of journalists - the biggest exodus from the industry in a single day.

And it explores how the company took its broadsheets down to compact format and reset its cost base by removing layers of sub editing. It explains how The Australian Financial Review came to publish the phrase “WORLDISFUKT” on its front page.

It was a time when mining billionaire Gina Rinehart and adman John Singleton attempted to exert influence while CEO Greg Hywood held them at bay.

And then, when all seemed lost, a small team working from a secret office in Surry Hills came up with a plan to save The Age and the Sydney Morning Herald as printed newspapers.

Today’s chapter is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available only to paying subscribers to Unmade. The paid tier is available from $65 per month.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers and sound design for corporate videos, digital content, commercials and podcasts.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Have a great Christmas.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Australian media monitoring company Streem has been bought by the US-based Cision.

Founder and CEO Elgar Welch joined Unmade’s Tim Burrowes to discuss how the deal came about, what it will mean for customers and where the company goes from here.

The conversation can be heard via the player in this post, or the Unmade podcast can be found on all the major podcasting apps.

Transcript

Tim Burrowes:
Welcome to a bonus edition of The Unmade Podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. It's been a meteoric rise for media monitoring service, Streem, officially launched less than 5 years ago. This week Streem was acquired by the US based PR intelligence company, Cision. Streem's Founder is Elgar Welch. Elgar, thank you for joining me in what must be a busy week. How did the deal come about?
Elgar Welch:
Thanks for having me, Tim. It's good to be on. Look, Streem's a business that's had a lot of interest in it. It's grown very fast and it's had a lot of interest since the first year of when it launched back in 2017 and lots of people coming to us and saying, can we partner? Can we invest? Can we do all these things? And as we continue to grow really those knocks at the door got louder and louder. And I guess, for us, we've got shareholders and we've got ambitions and for us, we want to get our platform out there as much as we can as well. So, when we continue to have those conversations with people over the last year or so, it became really clear to us that Cision was an excellent partner and we're really happy with them as a partner moving forward.
Tim Burrowes:
So did you decide to run a process where you talked to more organizations than just Cision or did it become exclusive fairly fast?
Elgar Welch:
Look, I think that for us, the process was really driven by the market coming to Streem. As I said, there was a lot of interest in the company really, since it launched and it's in an industry that previously didn't have a lot of competition and it wasn't a particularly interesting industry. I don't think before technology really came along and did a lot of great things in it. So for us that process was driven around people coming and saying, what can we do? How can we work together? And any good company looks at those opportunities and says, we need to explore them. We'd certainly looked at lots of options and talked to lots of different people over the years. And Cision really was the one for us.
Tim Burrowes:
I know that one of the things I was taught when I went through a sale process a few years back, was that one of the things that helps you get a fair outcome is competitive tension. If there is more than one potential acquirer. So I suppose when I look at that space, I look at a company like Meltwater, which a few years back, nearly merged with Cision itself. Were they another organization that you talked to? Meltwater?
Elgar Welch:
We talked to a lot of different people and we also talked to people who weren't in the industry as well. People who wanted to help us grow even faster than we were growing. And I guess for us at the end of the day, Tim, really it's important for us to achieve a good price for our business. If we are to sell it. It's also important that the people that we work with and the culture is a fit. And I think that we got, really the best result with the company we went with, with Cision. We've put a lot of effort into Streem, in forms of the culture and the people we've recruited. And I said this to Platinum Equity, who are the private equity company that owns Cision.
Elgar Welch:
And for us, yes, price is really important. Yes, all those terms are really important, but actually the people are really important, too. So we did a lot of cultural due diligence, in that process, just like they did due diligence on us. We also so did cultural due diligence on them and probably vice versa. Can we work with them? What are they going to be like to work with? How are they going to help us run that company? So, financial outcomes, really important. And certainly we've achieved a good one. But also cultural outcome's really important as well. When you've got to tell a hundred staff that this is what we are doing, you've got to be very sure that you've done those checks and you feel comfortable about it.
Tim Burrowes:
When we talk about cultural outcomes, I know that one of those old sayings is show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. And it would be good to explore what that means for your customers and for your staff. So, sometimes I think the earnout portion of a sale is constructed with targets around client and staff retention. And that can be good for the customers and good for the culture. And sometimes the earnout is about a profit number. Sometimes that can be an incentive to trim back investment in a product. How is the earnout and the incentive part of this deal structured?
Elgar Welch:
It's a really good question because you're right. Often when companies are acquired, there's this assumption that they've got to suddenly tighten their belts and trim things here and there. I think actually what we saw with Cision was a real desire to invest really hard in Streem and in the ANZ market. It's a new market for them. I mean, they're here with Brand Watch and PR Newswire and Falcon, but they're not here with media monitoring or media analysis or other kinds of services in that area. So for them, this was new, it's a market they wanted to be in. There are a lot of other markets around the world and actually, really what they want to do is invest very hard to make sure Streem grows very quickly.
Elgar Welch:
And it's already done that. It's got to demonstrated history of doing that with its platform and its people. But part of that earnout for us and making sure that we obviously deliver for shareholders is also very aligned to what they want from this platform too, which is to get it in the hands of as many people as possible. So in coming to a deal with Cision, we really looked at how are we going to keep growing it? What is your plan for that business? And we found that actually our growth plan, what we call scale up internally, they looked at that and said, that's perfect. That's exactly what you should keep doing. So we found really common ground on that. And that was a big tick for Streem because ultimately again, when you tell staff and when you tell shareholders and you keep talking to customers as well, you want to be able to say, guys, it's the same as what we've been doing, but a bit more supercharged with a bit more support and a bit more resource.
Tim Burrowes:
And for you personally, how long are you obliged to stay with the business as part of this deal?
Elgar Welch:
Well, I see it as a good thing in forms of me staying. I really like running the business day to day as does Antoine Sabourin, who's our CTO and the other half of the founding team in Streem. And we really enjoy running Streem. It's actually been a, look, it's been an enormous challenge. And we are really glad to have a partner as well, but our intention is to stick around. Look, we'll be here for at least a couple of years. I think that Cision will really find us some more challenges in time as well. And I'm looking forward to that.
Elgar Welch:
I was very clear with Abel Clark, who's their Global CEO that if we can find other things to do in time, let's do that. I mean I think Streem as a platform can be in other markets. I think we can help them on that front. It'll be ultimately up to them, but there'll be other things we can do in time, too.
Tim Burrowes:
Of course. Now you are a sensible person and an entrepreneurial person, so I'm sure you also need to make a plan for if things do diverge down the track as well. Would you be able to come back into the market at the end of that two years, or is there a kind of longer non-compete for you as well?
Elgar Welch:
I just wouldn't do it, Tim. I mean, if you find a good partner, like we have with Cision and you've grown something like we have with Streem, my interest is in that it keeps going and it thrives. So I wouldn't come back into the market. I don't think that's a good thing to do. And I think for us, really what we want to do is focus on growing, growing, growing the next few years. And we've got such great tech and such a great platform. My interest would not be in doing that. It wouldn't be the right thing to do. And frankly for us, we've got an excellent opportunity with Cision, a really amazing company to go and work with. I mean that they are the biggest and the best at a global level. So, no, zero interest in that approach.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, let's ask the question about price, although I suspect that you probably won't be able to say what the deal was worth. So, let me ask it this way. I believe that Streem had reached the point where it was becoming profitable, which obviously gave you lots of runway to carry on doing your own thing. Which obviously says that this was a deal that you made from, presumably, from a position of strength.
Elgar Welch:
That's right. Exactly. And look, we achieved a good price. It's a very good outcome for our shareholders. It's, for many of them, many, many multiples return on their investment and they took a big risk and backed us as a business. But yeah, look, I mean for us, again, price is really important as is the culture piece I talked about earlier. We really wanted to make sure Streem fit somewhere. We're happy with the outcome. We're thrilled.
Tim Burrowes:
We talked about the fact, or you refer to the fact that it's Platinum Private Equity, the company behind it. It found my thinking a bit about when Quadrant came into the media monitoring market by media monitors, a decade ago. That's the company that then became Isentia, of course. Now back then they paid a reported $160,000,000. Now I'm guessing that the scale was probably a bit less than that because it was a bigger, more mature business. And then at the other end of the scale, there was an enterprise value of $67,000,000 when Isentia sold to Access Intelligence a few months back. So I'm guessing the deal would probably be nearer that sort of value the $67,000,000? Would that be a fair assumption?
Tim Burrowes:
You're doing a good job, Tim. That's right. Look, I mean, it's going to be in that region. That's right. And for us, obviously, again, we've got to go through an earnout. We've got to make sure we achieve our numbers and we keep growing that business. But when the company you talk about there was acquired and certainly listed in the market and then acquired some point this year, two totally different businesses, really, from when it listed to when it was privatized and taken off the market, and really not comparable to what Streem is doing either. Quite a different proposition, long run. So, we're very, very happy with what we got in forms of the outcome. But as I said before, you've got to work with these people. You've got to make sure that you can keep going for years to come. And that's the work we did. So yes, let's get a good price, but let's also make sure we can work with those teams for the long run as well.
Tim Burrowes:
Well I said at the beginning of the conversation that Streem launched nearly five years ago, and in truth, you have been sweating it out for a lot longer than that. As far back as 2008, you launched something that was also called Streem as a publishing venture. And certainly even before you launched Streem as a monitoring service in early 2017, you've been working behind the scenes for some time.
Elgar Welch:
That's right. Yeah.
Tim Burrowes:
What actually is the story of the journey? Because very, very rarely it's as meteoric and straight line upwards as it looks from the outside.
Elgar Welch:
I mean, really the concept and the, I guess, the incentive for us to get into media intelligence market when we started working on it in 2014 and obviously commercially launched it in 2017, was my experience as you know, when I worked in government and just looking at a market that had become monopolized and bloated, and I think quite lacked innovation. It didn't have a great reputation for treatment of customers. Now, we're not perfect and that's not necessarily a shot at our competitors, but I think there was a lot more that could be done in that market. And we really felt that when we got in. So we started building that product out in 2014, obviously Antoine and I, we'd both gone to university together. We hadn't studied together, quite different areas, but we actually both sailed together as part of our time at university.
Elgar Welch:
And when the time came, it seemed like the right thing to do and the right market to go after. To be perfectly honest, we really built Streem in the early days. And the thesis behind it was, let's build a really good little news monitoring tool for politicians, media teams, for media advisors, like where I had worked. And it sort of evolved from there. And I remember one of my advisors, Eamon Fitzpatrick, who was actually one of my bosses when I worked down in Canberra. He said, "Look, you've got to go for the corporate market. You've also got to go after them. Government's great, but you've got to make sure you go for everybody." And, that for us is a little bit of a turning point to say, okay, actually, there's this much bigger market here that we can also go after.
Elgar Welch:
And so that's kind of how Streem started to evolve. And obviously we did a lot of testing and a lot of working through with customers between 2014 and 2016/17 when we launched it formally. So we did a lot of work on that, and we'd really, really asked people what they wanted. And when we came in, it was, I think, a bit of a breath of fresh air for a lot of customers to have something quite different to what they'd had previously.
Tim Burrowes:
So for listeners who haven't seen your dashboard, do you mind just talking about the product and what it covers?
Elgar Welch:
Yeah, sure. I mean, look, it's a comprehensive media intelligence tool. Print, online, television, radio, social as well, all that content's delivered in real time. Content's one big thing and we've got to license all that and pay for all that. We then analyze all that information. And really what we've tried to do is move media monitoring from this sort of single email report that you get each morning. And a lot of people still rely on that. And we certainly deliver that, but we've tried to give people a platform experience that's quite different from being alerted straight away to when something goes on air or was published online, through to being able to analyze that coverage. And really where we're heading now, I guess, is more around the measurement of that content. What is the meaning of all that and what does it mean for an organization? That our big opportunity moving forward.
Elgar Welch:
Obviously this year as well, we launched Streem Social, which is our social intelligence tool for comms teams. That's been a raging success because previously Streem wasn't doing a lot in social. We had an influence of social product, but then we put Streem Social out there and that's been excellent. We've had a really nice integration and then, look, in working with Cision as well, we've got that opportunity to supercharge that even further. Cision made an amazing acquisition in Brand Watch earlier this year as well, that's obviously the best probably social intelligence platform in the market. So these sort of things, you can see where the industry's going to start to go.
Tim Burrowes:
And is your technology something that Cision can replicate in their other markets or do they have similar products already?
Elgar Welch:
Look, I think there's a really good opportunity for Cision. It'll ultimately be up to them, but they can absolutely apply Streem's tech in other markets. They could take it into the UK, they could take it into other areas around the world. Asia, the US, all of those sort of places. I mean, ultimately that's going to be their call, but Streem's been built in a way that you can apply it into other markets quite easily. You've got to plug in content and data. You've got to have a local team, obviously. My focus and Antoine's focus over the next couple years obviously is going to be ANZ and growing that really hard. But I think that there's a really good chance that they'll look at that technology and say, actually, that broadcast technology is really quite impressive. We can put that into some other markets we operate in, or, why don't we take the whole platform and put it into a new Greenfield's market. There is that flexibility with the platform. And I think Antoine and the team have just done such a superb job on the technology behind Streem that that was proven out during our due diligence process and during our talks with them.
Tim Burrowes:
So as you mentioned Cision also own PR Newswire. What, if anything, is that likely to mean in the Australian market now that you're in the same family?
Elgar Welch:
Yeah, look, I mean at the end of the day, customers are really looking for a global solution. We're seeing, not just people wanting global content, but the ability to do multi-country deals, putting multiple countries together for their media monitoring, wanting to distribute content internationally as well. I mean, we work for a lot of companies now that have operations in New Zealand or Asia or all the Americas or Europe, and being able to tie those things together is going to be really valuable for customers. So the rationale for a deal like this is, there's a few things in there, but clearly amping up social is a really big part of that. Global content and being able to give Australian customers a global view and vice versa for global customers of Cision into ANZ. And then also things like PR Newswire, tools like that as well. We have an outreach product that allows people to send media releases in Australia and New Zealand, but we also need to be able to send that content overseas. And so combining this all together, it's quite magical.
Tim Burrowes:
Well let me ask about the competitive environment. I've already mentioned Meltwater, I've already mentioned Isentia. Another sort of newer entrant to the market is Truescope, which John Croll, the person who was behind Isentia is behind. Which of them do you think has most to lose, if anything, from the Cision tie up?
Elgar Welch:
Look, I think for us Streem's ambition here is ANZ and really to grow this business so that it's the, we want it to be the majority provider in this market. We want it to be the best and the biggest, we want be able to make sure that people get a great service from us. And that's why having a partnership Cision's important. I think that, I mean, what's incredible about the ANZ market is if you rewind it 10 years, there really was only one provider. You didn't have a lot of choice. Now you've got multiple choices and that's, look ultimately for customers to decide who's going to be the winner from all that. I think that there will continue to be really healthy competition in Australia and New Zealand.
Elgar Welch:
I mean, we certainly see that. We choose not to really compete on price. We try and compete on product and value from that service. So we're going to have to go out and convince people to continuously come over to Streem. I think there's actually room for competition anyway. And I think really our goal here as well, Tim, is that we actually want to grow the market. I mean, so much of the narrative around the media intelligence industry the last 5 years has been there's this pie, it's a certain size and everyone's going to get a piece of that and you might get a little bit more, you might get a little bit less. Actually what we're seeing is that we can sell new products and services to customers.
Elgar Welch:
Social is one of them. Analytics is another one of them. We'll have some really big stuff to talk about early next year around what we're doing with audience analytics. All of these things are actually really helpful to growing the market. And so I see it less about, obviously there's competition. I see it less about taking some from a competitor and putting an into Streem's bucket and more about actually, can we offer something new and different to what media monitoring has been? That's the industry's challenge, move it away from being, we don't want it to be commoditized. We want it to be high value to people.
Tim Burrowes:
And when you say audience analytics, what do you mean by that?
Elgar Welch:
Well, what we want to do is we want to make sure we've got a lot more measurement and validation around the earned media content that we are monitoring. And there's such an opportunity here to be able to say to customers, you're here. This is where your coverage is, and this is the meaning behind it. Here are the audience is consuming that information. Here's where they are geographically. Here's how much time they spend with your brand. The earned media or the comms team are sort of the unsung heroes, really, when you think about it inside of corporates and government, because marketing's done an amazing job at being able to measure the impact of paid media, but earned media, hasn't done that well. It's never had great metrics around it, and that's no one's fault.
Elgar Welch:
It's just that often there hasn't been digital measurement panels or other bits and pieces that could do that well. What we want to do next year is really start to put some shape around that. And I think that if you talk to any comms team, that's what they want. They want to not just show the content, the coverage, they actually want to show the impact of that. And they don't want rubbery numbers. They don't want big numbers or AVEs or dollar values. I mean, everyone loves a dollar value on their press pack. But at the end of the day, what we actually want to do is say, we know who the audience was for this. We know how they engaged. We know how they shared your content. We don't know individually who they are, but we understand the groups of people that are actually really interested in the coverage that you're putting out there.
Tim Burrowes:
I'm relieved to hear that you're not planning on putting a dollar value behind it though, because that is a somewhat controversial way of doing things, isn't it?
Elgar Welch:
It's a conversation that we've had from day one with customers about why we don't like that metric. And look, in think in defence of the industry, I don't think you'll find many people, whether it's from our competitors or elsewhere, that actually love that metric it's often kept in there just because a particular exec might like it or a PR company might like it. That's not a criticism. It's a nice number. You rock up to a meeting and you've got a $100,000,000 worth of free media. It sounds amazing, but it's not right. And the industry can do better.
Tim Burrowes:
So a point I made a bit earlier is that from the outside, these things always look like a smooth upwards trajectory and that's rarely true. What was the hardest thing for you over the last few years?
Elgar Welch:
Look I think that managing a team and we've got 112 or whatever staff now, managing a team is, that's a big challenge. And keeping that going each day. Frankly raising capital and building the products. Those are challenging things to do. But when you add in a lot of people and you've got to remember, you've got a lot of responsibility to those people because they've chosen to come and work for you and they've chosen to put their time in. I think that was probably the most challenging thing for me. I got better at it probably in the last year or two, the first couple of years though, I'd certainly lent on a lot of advisors and a lot of people around me to help me with that. Streem also grew very, very quickly.
Elgar Welch:
And I would often say to staff, they'd say, "Well we need to make sure we address this issue or we need to change this in the business." And I'd often say, "You're absolutely right. We do." The biggest problem for us was that the day we realized we needed it, it was six months too late. And because it was moving at such a quick pace, it's not possible to always get ahead of these things. And I did often have that conversation with staff to make sure they understood. We worked in a really high growth environment and we had staff, for example, Tim, that had come from government, for example, and again, not a criticism of them, that had a certain way of doing things. And they were, I think, appalled sometimes about how we were making decisions.
Elgar Welch:
We were saying, "Hey, great, let's go and do this, that product, we can go and build that." They were not used to an environment that would make decisions that fast and that quickly. And we learned a little bit from them as well, to make sure we did things a bit better and with a bit more process, but ultimately managing people. That's been the biggest challenge. I think I've gotten a lot better, but I think having 100 staff in there, it's not a small organization. It's not an enormous one either, but I know all of those staff and I do feel a real degree of responsibility to them as does Anton.
Tim Burrowes:
And you touched on your advisors as well. They can make a real difference, the right sort of group of people just to help with their experience, when you don't have a particular aspect. Do you want to maybe talk through who your key people in terms of advice over the years have been?
Elgar Welch:
Yeah, look for sure. I mean, my career and where we got to wouldn't be possible without those sort of people. People like Sam Marks, who's on our board, David Wakeley as well on our board. I mean, two really incredible people that have given me just so much of their time. Keith Forbes, who's our COO and our Commercial Director. Keith's been with Streem since, really since the beginning, 2017. He had a background in media intelligence with AAP as well. And someone I'm obviously very good friends with as well as work with day to day. Alan Robertson, Alan, who you know, of course, Tim, as well, came out of the advertising industry.
Tim Burrowes:
Well known in the media industry. Yeah.
Elgar Welch:
"Robbo" as he's known as. Alan spent so much time with me in the early days, hearing my ideas and hearing me out on things. And I just saw Alan today actually to drop a gift off for Christmas. And, I was just saying, we have just known each other for so long, but a person that never asked much, but always was willing to give a lot of time and a lot of effort. Tony Davis, out of Quantium as well, someone who is a big impact on me, certainly in the early days of Streem. I mean, there's a whole lot of people there as well that have given me a lot of their time. And you're absolutely right. You can't build a business without those great people around you.
Elgar Welch:
And in the early days, I really did try and build out an advisory board, an advisory panel. They weren't necessarily our board of directors, but they were shareholders or they were people that could really help us. And it made such a difference to our business. We wouldn't have taken the big leaps forward that we did so quickly if we didn't have them. And I would recommend that to anyone starting a business. Don't just collect names as trophies, really try and find the people that actually are going to spend some really good time with you. And give you such frank advice that you can act on it.
Tim Burrowes:
And the deal doesn't formally close until first quarter of next year. I guess there are always a few regulatory hurdles to go through. Is there a Plan B if the deal does fall over for some reason?
Elgar Welch:
Well look, I think the great thing about what we've agreed with Cision is that we've effectively agreed our scale up plan, which we're executing as we are today. And whilst there's some absolute great benefits from that transaction we've also got a lot of runway in forms of the product we want to build and the plan that we've got. So I don't expect there to be a problem, but if there is, we continue on and we've got our plan and that plan is very aligned with what Cision wants and what we want. So I fully expect we'll be able to do that.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, Elgar, congratulations on the deal. And thank you very much for your time.
Elgar Welch:
Thanks so much, Tim. I really appreciate your time and great to talk to you.
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The Unmade Podcast is produced with the enthusiastic support of Abe's Audio. More soon. I'm Tim Burrowes. Toodlepip.

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Welcome to Unmade.

In the latest episode I talk to one of Australia’s most credentialed media executives, Andrew Jaspan, about his newest venture, 360Info.

Jaspan’s greatest career achievement to date was founding The Conversation, which has provided an editorial platform for academics globally. However, he departed in 2017 in acrimonious circumstances.

During his career, Jaspan has also edited some of the world’s best known news publications including The Age in Australia and The Observer, The Scotsman, and The Big Issue in the UK.

Like The Conversation, 360Info will once again tap into academic expertise and make it accessible to news outlets. Jaspan is the founder and editor.

During the interview, Jaspan explains his vision for 360Info, including how it differs from The Conversation. He also discusses the lessons he learned over his exit from The Conversation.

And as a former Murdoch editor, Jaspan shares his views on News Corp’s net contribution to society.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, corporate videos and commercials.

The podcast can be heard via the player above, or by searching for Unmade in all major podcast apps.

Transcript

Tim Burrowes:
Welcome to The Unmade Podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. Today's guest has one of the most impressive resumes in global publishing, Andrew Jaspan. Maybe best known in Australia as the founder of The Conversation and a former editor of The Age, but in the UK, he was as well known for editing big mastheads, including The Observer, The Scotsman, and The Big Issue, among others. Now he's back with another Australian launch, 360Info. Like The Conversation, it has a foot in the world of academia, but with a different model.
Tim Burrowes:
Andrew, welcome along, and let's start here. Now, you strike me as one of the few editors who's also got the commercial chops to launch a profitable publishing venture, if they wanted to, yet you're going the not-for-profit route again. Why?
Andrew Jaspan:
Well, Tim, first of all, it's really good to be talking to you again. We've known each other for a while in Australia, I think pretty well around the time Mumbrella started. Can I just say that, and I'm saying this in all honesty, the question you've just asked me is the same question that my wife asks me every time I do one of these. She keeps saying, "Why can't you do something that's going to make some money?" Because I tend to go for not-for-profit.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, let me kind of unpack that a little bit. If I wanted to do this as a for-profit, which I could have done, I would've had to raise substantial sums of money. In this case, we have five million Australian to last us three years, although we do hope to raise more money. Now, to go and raise five million on the money markets, particularly if you go to venture capitalists, they expect a couple of things, as you know. One is a good return, and two is to probably flip the company in between three to five, and them for them to exit and sell it on to somebody else. So, that's problem number one. It puts a very high bar on you having to perform.
Andrew Jaspan:
The second issue is that, if we were for profit, our authors and we can come onto this later, our researchers working universities worldwide, they would all say, "That's fine. We have no problem with you being for profit. After all, all the academic journals, the McMillans, the Springers, et cetera, they're all for-profits." And what they do is, they pay their authors. So, they would expect to be paid. That would kind of double or triple our burn rate, and it would just make it pretty well unfeasible.
Andrew Jaspan:
Here, the only money I need to raise is to hire editors, professional editors, and producers. And I just couldn't make this work another way. The other thing is that we're playing in the public good space. To me, the public interest/public good space requires that you make your information as widely available as possible. And that means no paywalls, the ability for information to flow freely. That is the antithesis, in a sense, of a commercial play, which is probably seeking to get either a paywall erected, or to write a lot of advertising alongside the content, and so on, so forth. So, that was the antithesis of what we wanted to do here.
Andrew Jaspan:
So yes, I'm afraid to say I've gone back to the not-for-profit well, and my life at home remains a bit of a misery on that front.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, we might touch on the funding a little bit more in a moment, but firstly, maybe you can actually explain the concept of 360Info.
Andrew Jaspan:
Absolutely. In a way, Tim, it might be useful to say how this differs from my last play, which was The Conversation. There are certain similarities, in so far as we're working with researchers, but where we are different is as follows. The first thing is, we are trying to look at information in the global whole, as it were. So, not to look at information that begins and ends at the borders.
Andrew Jaspan:
If you take most media, it tends to be about a country in which they operate in. And the reason for that is, the business model is around advertising and advertising is sold by territories, or countries, or cities, or states. What happens in, if you take where I live, in Australia, the job of say The Melbourne Age was to attract an audience in Melbourne, and you sell them Melbourne products. The sister paper in Sydney, The Sydney Morning Herald, will do the same thing.
Andrew Jaspan:
And what you do every morning, when you're editing one of these papers, is you think what will attract me a Melbourne audience? And it tends to be about issues in the city or region, and ones that are outside are dropped. And what I wanted to do was to take a different approach and just say, "Look, what if we actually tried to approach information without borders?" Because there are lots of stories. The obvious ones today are COVID, which knows no borders. Carbon dioxide knows no borders. Climate issues knows no borders. The fish in our oceans know no borders. Et cetera. So, why don't we look at some of these bigger issues in a different way?
Andrew Jaspan:
The second thing is, I wanted to get away from the breaking news cycle, because breaking news in any newsroom, as you all know, tends to suck the oxygen out of that newsroom, because everybody rushes to cover what's breaking today or this week. And what I wanted to do was to refocus the editorial, not on breaking news but on the big issues, the big challenges, the most pressing problems the world faces. And I've obviously mentioned the two big ones right now are COVID and climate. There's also water, food, energy. And then we go into issues like human trafficking, refugees. There's a whole bunch of other softer issues, as well, that dominate the most wicked, difficult problems the world faces. So, I wanted to look at those, unpack those problems, really try and understand them from different perspectives around the world.
Andrew Jaspan:
And secondly, utilizing the scientific method or the research method is not just to try and understand the problem, but also find a fix to those problems. And again, returning to COVID, if I may, when the COVID-19 virus came along, initially nobody knew what it was. And in record speed time, about three months, scientists were able to do some genomic sequencing tests and actually understand the virus and then gave it a name. And once you understand the nature of the virus, you can then build the antivirus. So, I wanted to use a similar approach, which is understand each of those problems in real depth and then say, "How are we trying to address them or fix them?" That's something that journalism doesn't tend to do, because journalism is much more of a reporting game, whereas research has a different timeline, longer timelines, trying to understand and fix world problems. So, that's the second big difference.
Andrew Jaspan:
And the third one, if I may, is that instead of launching a website, which is a B2C play, what I wanted to do instead-
Tim Burrowes:
(Business to consumer.)
Andrew Jaspan:
Business to consumer. What I wanted instead to do is to become a supplier of content to other people's websites, so that's kind of known as a B2B play. We are a wholesaler or supplier of content. Other people pick it up, they repackage it re-edit it as they wish, and then they push it out to their readers or consumers. We are not in the retail game, and the retail game for media is one of social media marketing, taking ads on Google, doing search engine optimization, all those kind of tricks to try and get eyeballs to visit your site and not somebody else's site.
Andrew Jaspan:
What we've put in place instead is, we've started off with over 750 content partners around the world who've signed up to take our content and use it much like a Reuters news wire or an AAP or an AP. They just take a feed. They see our content, they pick up what they want. They can use it as it suits them, and bingo, off you go.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, let's take a hypothetical piece of content, then. Could you maybe just talk us through the stages, right from conception and commissioning, through to the stages that piece of content would do, in order to then end up on a publication somewhere?
Andrew Jaspan:
Okay. So, it's a really important question, but I have to unpack it for you because it's quite a complex issue. Again, I will wanted to rethink the entire supply line for information, as it were. What we do in terms of ideas is, as you and I will have done when we lead a morning conference or whatever, is the people sitting around the room would sort of talk about what they've read overnight, or what they're have seen in their specialist areas, and report into the editor. And we'll all sit around the table and go, "Okay, let's do this. Let's not do that. And let's try and move on that story immediately and push the other ones back to later in the day." And so on and so forth.
Andrew Jaspan:
I've taken a much more circuitous, or the slow route, towards content creation. The first thing we do is, I don't know if you're familiar with the sustainable development goals. There are 17 of them.
Tim Burrowes:
Yes.
Andrew Jaspan:
What we're working towards is having what we call a consultative or reference panel for each one of those 17, which, the people who really understand each one of those those problem areas. And we draw them from global north, which are the richer countries and the global south, the developing countries, to get a balanced view of it. We go to them with an idea, and we say, "Okay, we'd like to look at, whatever." And they come back to us.
Andrew Jaspan:
For example, the one we're working on now is, how do we address bushfires or wildfires around the world? What you do initially is you, you say, "This is what we're thinking of doing." They come back and say, "You are looking at the wrong angle, here. You need to look at this and you need to speak to X." And so on and so forth. We then move from an outline brief, as we call it, to an agreed brief. Which is where we've consulted with people, we've got the ideas. Sometimes they give us the names of people to go to.
Andrew Jaspan:
Then the next thing is, having agreed on what we're going to cover, we then go and seek people to write on the subject. And the authors that we use must have an accredited post with a university. The reason for that, by the way, is that we want people who have been screened as it were by each university and people who have to sign up to all sorts of research codes of conduct, as well. So, that's part of our sort of test, to make sure these people really know what they're saying and have deep research expertise.
Andrew Jaspan:
Once we go and find those people, then we write them a note, saying, "We'd like you to write X number of words by a certain deadline." And we remind them, "This is not an opinion website, so we are not looking for your opinion. We want everything to be research-and-evidence-based.
Andrew Jaspan:
Once we've set those deadlines, we chase them up. We give them about a week to 10 days to write. We get the content in. We re-edit it into essentially a Reuters style, because we're operating like a news wire. Again, we're not interested in first person accounts with their voice. It's a news wire neutral voice. When the content is ready, it's sent back to them because we can't publish without an author's sign off. And once they've agreed to it, bingo, out it goes.
Andrew Jaspan:
The last bit is, everything else is released under embargo to our 750 end users. And the reason for that is, we like to give them three or four days to be able to read our content, and then decide how they want to use it, and then push it out themselves.
Tim Burrowes:
And the style of the content, would it sit, and I'm thinking say for instance it ends up in a newspaper masthead, whether that's in print or online, would it be likely to sit more naturally as a news article or as a feature, do you think?
Andrew Jaspan:
As a news feature. One of our biggest users is The Press Trust of India. And the editor-in-chief there said, "Look, this is absolutely wonderful because we are very good at breaking news and we run a lot of opinion, but what we don't have is news features." And he suggested, which is what we've done now, that we released this content on a Thursday or Friday, because he said the Friday in the weekend papers tend to have more space to carry features. And that's the space we're playing into.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, slightly longer, but at the end of the day, we operate under creative commons license four, which is called a remixed license. Which means that they can take our content, much as you would take Reuters, for example, and just use as much or as little as you want. You can just take the first paragraph. You can take the whole thing, to whatever suits the outlet's appetite for the story.
Tim Burrowes:
Now that's interesting. As a bit of a side note, I remember in the day, back in the days with Mumbrella, where we used to take a lot of The Conversation’s content, sometimes you were a bit nervous if you did need to sort of re-angle it a bit, just to make it more relevant for our audience. And I always felt, under Creative Commons, that I probably wasn't supposed to.
Andrew Jaspan:
No.
Tim Burrowes:
So, it's interesting that you have a different sort of license this time around.
Andrew Jaspan:
Yes. That's called a no derivative license, so it means you cannot change anything. You have to keep everything as it is. That's the requirement for its use. Whereas we operate under license four. It's a different one, which is called a remix license, which allows our end users to edit it.
Andrew Jaspan:
Now, I have to tell you, there is a risk in all that because they can edit it in a way that the author wouldn't be happy. But if you think of Reuters, everything that comes from Reuters carries the author's byline, and very rarely do newspapers or outlet use the entire Reuters 800 or 1000 words on something. It tends to be cut back to whatever they've got space for.
Andrew Jaspan:
Yeah, so operating the way we do, which is under license four, where people can remix, does add some risk, in so far as people could actually change some of the meaning as the author intended. However, it does make our content much more easy to use and more flexible, for whatever spaces that either online or in-print people have space for.
Tim Burrowes:
And something else I suppose I find myself thinking about, obviously with Creative Commons, as you say, it means that anybody can republish without needing to sort of pay for it. I think about maybe, I don't know, a competitive situation like Australia, where let's say there's a really good piece on water security, for instance.
Andrew Jaspan:
Yeah.
Tim Burrowes:
And both The Sydney Morning Herald and The Australian would love to run it. Now, it'd be quite unusual for both titles to carry the same piece. How do you think about things like geographic exclusivity? Is there anything you're working on in that way, in terms of who you choose your partners to be?
Andrew Jaspan:
The short answer, Tim, is we don't want to pick favorites, really. So, we have no special deals. Everything is under it in embargo, a strict embargo, which means everybody gets at least three days notice. Because we send them, if you sign up to get our content, they get an email alert which tells them these five or 10 pieces will be moved on next day. That gives you three days to have a look at it, which means that our end users can use that content in different ways. Or they can remix the content with a reporter who may want to develop that story and add some bits because it makes it more topical to their region or whatever.
Andrew Jaspan:
But AAP, the Australian wire agency, operates the same way. They put all their content out. It's all available to all their end users. And of course, somebody will use it in one city, and it'll be used the same time by different outlet in another, or sometimes two outlets in the same city. Those are just the sort of basic rules of a news wire.
Tim Burrowes:
Tell me about your team, the individuals, the roles, how you're going to be organizing them.
Andrew Jaspan:
Yeah. So, we took a decision from the outset to focus on two areas, which in a sense are aligned with the research, with the way in which university researchers conduct their work. Usually sitting behind most research are very big data sets, where people do a huge amount of work to try and understand, as I say, a problem.
Andrew Jaspan:
We've decided to actually focus on data, data journalism, data visualization, and text. Those are the two areas, rather than focus on video, for example, and even our pictures, largely speaking, are generic pictures. Because again, we're not a news breaking site. So, we've hired two data visualizers, one of them with a more focus on data itself, another one on being able to do the design work around data, to turn it into, for example, interactives or graphics or whatever. And we think this is a really interesting area to get into.
Andrew Jaspan:
The second team are really a combination of professional editors and producers. And some of these come from a background in broadcasting, some in prints, some in magazines. We've got actually a very small team to begin with. We've started off with the team of nine. Which is, I don't think I mentioned this earlier, but Monash University provided the seed funding to allow the project to happen, and the funding they've given us allows us to hire nine people. Although, we've just hired, again through the two campuses Monash has overseas, one in Malaysia and one in Indonesia, we've just hired one person into Jakarta who starts at the beginning of next year and two people in Kuala Lumpur. We already have somebody in Delhi. So, we're working well towards a global approach, with Delhi, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, and Melbourne as our four bases, initially.
Andrew Jaspan:
And each one of those are people who have got to be good at ideas, got to be good at commissioning, got to be respectful in the relationships we have with the researchers, good at finishing and packaging.
Andrew Jaspan:
Then the key person in my team is my deputy, who's the editor also at the Asia Pacific service, because we've got a number of hubs we hope to have, but the Asia Pacific's the first one. Charis Palmer worked with me at The Conversation. She then went work for Morry Schwartz, and did, you may have seen something called Schwartz Pro, which were newsletters that she led, and she's come back to work with me on this project. One of the key things that she likes about this project is the global aspect to it, rather than just being another country play, as it were.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, you've already alluded to the global aspect a couple of times, and it was something I was going to ask about actually, was about your ambitions. I mean, it sounds to me like you're very deliberately writing from the beginning around topics and areas that certainly aren't Australian specific, but have more of a kind of global outlook.
Andrew Jaspan:
Yes. Well, one of the interesting things, Tim, is that we sit here in Melbourne, and I tried to indicate to you that our newsroom meetings are not the traditional ones, of us sitting around the table and just agreeing what to do. But we open up the room, as I call it, and bring in people who are not sitting physically around our desk, to get different aspects.
Andrew Jaspan:
What was really interesting was, we were going to put a package out in January/February around bushfires and wildfires, because that's the hottest time of the year, and our Delhi editor pointed out that actually that was winter in India, and so it's hot in the Southern Hemisphere and cold in the Northern. It just makes you kind of rethink a lot of these issues.
Andrew Jaspan:
And other issues around, for example, energy. When you think of solar and wind, which are great in terms renewables, the real issue is one of energy storage, so that you can release it when you need it. Well, of course, in Australia, being a rich country, we can afford to build massive Tesla batteries, and we kind of assume, "Well, why doesn't the rest of the world do the same thing?" Well, the answer is that the rest of the world can't afford those kind of batteries at all and have to have very different approaches.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, the whole idea is to make sure that we don't just have another rich world play, but we do offer information which tries to look at problems within the round, how do these play in Africa, Latin America, South Asia, as well as Europe and North America and Australia. So, it's that kind of different focus which we've built right in from the very beginning, in terms of how we approach information.
Tim Burrowes:
We've touched on funding. When you launched The Conversation, you raised 10 million to cover the first three years. This time you've just referred to about five million. How are you thinking about funding going forwards? Presumably once you have momentum and you can show that you're having an impact, that will be a powerful tool, but is it likely to come from within Australia, do you think? Or will the rest of the funding have to come from global sources?
Andrew Jaspan:
Well, again, a very good question because it's something I think about a lot. The short answer is, the appetite from foundations and philanthropy in Australia is really not attuned to global plays. It is more about addressing, for example, health issues, mental health issues, education issues, indigenous issues in Australia.
Andrew Jaspan:
And the big funders who are interested in the sort of global plays tend to be, sadly, in the US, the likes of Rockefeller, Carnegie, Gates, MacArthur, or in the UK, the likes of The Wellcome Trust. There's a number of others. And there are a number in Germany and also in Scandinavia and Holland, by the way. There are very few of them here. And also, the foundations don't operate in the same way in Asia, either South Asia or Southeast Asia.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, I am kind of looking at where we might go next for funding. The the issue for the three year funding is to give us time to establish the service, so I'm not too worried. We've got a three year runway, as it were. Year one is just about establishing the brand, establishing the service, establishing our customer base. Although they don't pay, we need to drive loyalty and use of our service.
Andrew Jaspan:
And then what we will do is, in years two and three, move towards looking at raising more funding, but also potentially introducing some services as well, which we might charge for. And we haven't yet decided what those might be, but at some stage we're going to have to look at that.
Andrew Jaspan:
The other bit is that, again, going back to the global nature of this, is that we do have partners around the world who are very interested in working with us, but unlike The Conversation, it won't break down into national services. Because there is a Conversation which I got going in the UK, the US, Canada, France, Spain, and Indonesia, and each one of them has become a sort of, in a sense, almost an independent service for each country. We're not going to do that.
Andrew Jaspan:
What we are looking at is having hubs, which are also hosted at universities by the way, in the same way as we're hosted at Monash, but they will be responsible for raising the money within their region or location. We can't use Australian money to help get an offshore hub established. So, once we're up and running and we've got those partners in place, I expect they'll be making direct approaches towards some foundations in their their region. And, potentially, each university host might also chip something in towards towards setting up the hub.
Tim Burrowes:
Now, something you had to face as a challenge when you launched The Conversation, it grew and became global, was balancing your time with looking overseas and being overseas and then the Australian office, as well. I think in the end, there were tensions, which in part contributed to you not being with The Conversation anymore.
Andrew Jaspan:
Yeah.
Tim Burrowes:
What lessons or thoughts have you got around how you need to organize yourself and your culture and your time, to get the most out of you?
Andrew Jaspan:
Again, Tim, it's something which I've sort of had to think about quite deeply over the last three years, since I left. I mean, each set of problems was probably driven from something slightly different, but at the end of the day, I think I got trapped between trying to do too much, and if I didn't do enough, the global rollout just couldn't have happened as fast as it could. I mean, there are very, very few, if you think about it, rollouts quite as big and large and global as The Conversation managed to do in its first three, four years.
Andrew Jaspan:
But what that did was, it took me away from Australia a hell of a lot. I had to raise quite a lot of money in the US, to get the US going. I had to do the same in the UK. I helped a little bit with Indonesia and with Spain and with France.
Andrew Jaspan:
And then the other thing in Australia is that we signed up 39 universities and CSIRO, 40 institutions all were paying between 50,000 and 200,000 a year. And I personally had to knock on vice chancellors' doors and try and persuade them to join. And although it sounds easy in retrospect, you think, "Well, everybody would've joined," I can tell you a lot of them were unsure or didn't want to. But now they've all signed up, and that meant a lot of interstate travel.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, the first thing is, I don't want to travel as much as I used to. And thank God for COVID in many ways, because I can't. That's a discipline which has been forced upon me, but the upside of it is I can now do Zoom calls. And frankly, I have to say, I actually find Zoom to be a wonderful tool because it means I don't need to travel, people turn up on time. I don't have to hear excuses of people getting caught up with traffic issues and all that sort of nonsense. It works really well. It's efficient, and people have got used to it. I think it's a great new way of working, and anybody concerned about carbon footprint should really curtail travel. So, that's the first thing, is I'm able to spend more time with the team.
Andrew Jaspan:
The second thing is that, I have to say, and I sort of have to take blame for this is, I didn't hire particularly well. I made some terrible mistakes, in terms of hires, and largely speaking these were people who had agendas which were different to mine in many ways. I don't want to go into that in too much more detail, but I was badly let down by certain people. I just thought, "I never ever had thought that you would do something like that."
Andrew Jaspan:
Then the other thing, which is again my fault, was being distracted by having so many different issues to deal with that. There were times I didn't handle things as well as I should.
Andrew Jaspan:
So yeah, I mean, learned many lessons from that. Still feel very disappointed about what happened, but you know what? I've moved on. They can do their thing, which is very much a creature of my own making. And thankfully, they are still working very much the way that I set the whole thing up, which leaves me room to introduce a different service, which in many ways is a kind of complimentary service. The Conversation are largely breaking views services, in terms of being opinion about what's in the new cycle, whereas we've parked opinion and we've parked breaking news, for the reasons I explained earlier.
Andrew Jaspan:
It's opened up a very fertile different area for us, which is that, the longer read, the more considered approach, and trying to address problems, rather than just report on problems. Which, to me, is a really interesting new area. Some people call that constructive or solutions journalism. I don't like to use those phrases too much, but that's what we're trying to do.
Tim Burrowes:
Something strikes me. Let's assume that you're able to develop some really good quality content. In time, that reputation, and I hear everything you say about being B2B rather than business to consumer, but in time that reputation, I could see there being an appetite to actually see, from the public, your raw feed, so to speak. Do you think there will be a moment when you do, even if it's a simple site, just have something where anybody can just take a look at what you're publishing, so they can see your whole output in one place?
Andrew Jaspan:
Yes. I mean, that's a possibility, Tim, but if you think of Reuters, which is a massive business, they don't have really a public facing site, as such. I mean, there is a Reuters site you can go to, there is stuff there, but all the content is locked up for its subscribers and users. And they don't particularly want to be a site that attracts lots of readers, because at the end of the day, their subscribers are the people who want to retail their content, and they don't want to set up in competition to their own subscribers.
Andrew Jaspan:
In Australia, for example, say Sydney Morning Herald, The Age uses Reuters content. Well, if Reuters should set up a public facing website, The Age and Sydney Morning Herald people would say, "Well, we're not going to take your content because it's already freely available on your website."
Tim Burrowes:
Is there any likelihood that you'll find yourself competing with The Conversation, when it comes to wanting to sign up an expert to write a piece for you?
Andrew Jaspan:
Tim, there is the potential for that, but let me tell you, in Australia alone, I just happen to have these numbers, there are about 100,000 academics, and The Conversation has used about 25,000. So, about 25% have already been used. 75,000 haven't been, and probably never will be. But even of those 25,000, all those academic write for many different channels. Many of them will write, occasionally, directly for a newspaper or they'll appear on TV or radio. They'll write for overseas publications. So, The Conversation doesn't have the complete right to utilize those researchers alone.
Andrew Jaspan:
And the other thing, as I indicated to you before, is our content is quite different because The Conversation, which is the model I set up, tries to riff off that day's breaking news and do, in a sense, commentary to sort of say, "Oh, let's explain the budget today. Or let's explain a plane going down." Or whatever. What we're doing something quite different. We're actually focusing on, as I said to you, sustainable development goals, the world's biggest problems, and looking at things in a quite different way.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, finally, I'd be wasting the opportunity if I didn't ask your more general view on Australia's media. As I was saying, you were a former editor of The Age and you've edited many other mastheads in other parts of the world, as well. Quite a wide question, but what do you see as the state of the media, as we head towards 2022?
Andrew Jaspan:
Well, Tim, I'm looking at the clock and it tells me that we've nearly spent 40 minutes on what I've done now. If you've got time for another 40 minutes, I'd love to talk to you about it because it's a really extremely important issue. And it goes to the heart of what I think is a real problem in Australia, which is that we have probably one of the most concentrated media ownerships in the world.
Andrew Jaspan:
When I came to Australia to edit The Age in 2004, there was Fairfax, there was APN, there was News Corp, obviously, and Channels Seven, Nine and Ten, but now Nine has gobbled up Fairfax. News Corp has gobbled up APN. There's been lots of other mergers and consolidation, and you've got even fewer players than when I arrived in 2004. And I think there's a real problem in Australia. I mean, there are large swathes of Australia, as you know, that are just owned by one group. And so it's you take it or leave it.
Tim Burrowes:
Now, that one group is News Corp.
Andrew Jaspan:
News Corp is big, but the Nine group now, between both Nine TV, plus all the mastheads. By the way, there has been one change in development, which is Andrew Catalano. He and I, by the way, were both asked to leave Fairfax at the same time. And I went off to do The Conversation and now this thing, and he went on to buy out Rural Press and renamed it Australian Community Media. And he's got, I can't remember, 120-odd papers right across Australia, which is an independent play.
Andrew Jaspan:
But largely speaking, it's been consolidation, consolidation, fewer and fewer voices. And of course, due to a combination of the global economy and now COVID, a lot of those groups have delayered and hollowed out newsrooms even further. And there's been a loss of, I think, 5,000 journalists jobs in the last three to four years, in Australia. So, it's not in good shape at all.
Andrew Jaspan:
But I wouldn't mind, if I can, just to talk briefly about the advertising side of what's happened. As you probably know, in Australia, the advertising spend on the media tends to be, or was I should say, about 10 years ago, about eight to nine billion a year. It now stands at more like 10 to 11 billion a year. However, what's happened is that, over the last five years, Google and Facebook together have carved out about half of that and now actually take between 60 and 70% of that, 10 to 11 billion. Google takes a lot more than Facebook. And they bill all of that out of Singapore or overseas in low tax thresholds.
Andrew Jaspan:
What that's done is actually reduced, hugely reduced, the ability for the Australian media to focus not just on hiring journalists, but to actually conduct their operations. So, there has been a big change in the advertising marketplace, which has led to huge structural issues.
Andrew Jaspan:
Those issues are being dealt with, to a certain extent, through the news bargaining code, which the News Corp papers led the charge on, and largely speaking was about what Rupert Murdoch has always thought, which was that Google was stealing their content and should pay. And that's, largely speaking, what Google and to a certain extent Facebook are doing now, is paying them. But it hasn't really gone to towards new entrants or the smaller players. It's really gone to the big players who had skin in the game, to get the government to structure the news bargaining code in a way that, in a sense, reinforced the existing ownership structures.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, I might follow up on Rupert Murdoch, in a moment. Just one question first, on your previous point, because I totally recognize what you say about the dominance of Google and Facebook in that ecosystem and the lack of transparency there is, as well, particularly with Google's control over every stage of it. At the same time, we see Google certainly wanting to be seen as being a good citizen in journalism. There's the Google News initiative, for instance. So, it does put money into the ecosystem.
Tim Burrowes:
Would you take that sort of money, if offered, for 360Info? Or does it compromise you to do so, do you think?
Andrew Jaspan:
Again, a sort of a dilemma which faces many independent journalists. Let me just comment on the first part of your question. I've been to Mountain View, which is Google's headquarters just outside San Francisco, and I've also been to Facebook's headquarters at Palo Alto, and also their officers in London, for both Google and Facebook, and also for Google in this country.
Andrew Jaspan:
The key issue for Google and Facebook is they see themselves as technology companies, first and foremost. They do not want to be seen as a publisher, because if you're seen as a publisher, it kind of changes the nature of the game, and they become responsible for content. They can be sued for defamation or liable and all sorts of other things.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, what they've done is they've got an exclusion, which is actually written into American law to be not seen as a publisher, but just a carrier of other people's information. What that meant is that they had to strenuously avoid putting money into anything editorial. So, when I would go and speak to Google and Facebook, they would say, "Look, we can help you with, for example, developing your site better, with giving you tools to optimize readership, with giving you data tools, with giving you free access to the G suite of services and so on and so forth. But we can't give it to editorial."
Andrew Jaspan:
So, that used to be their approach, and that sort of held for, I don't know, let's say five to ten years. But now, particularly in Australia, because of the campaign that News Corp led in this country, and a compliant government who listened largely to what News Corp say, they have managed to force, in a sense, Google and Facebook to actually start putting money into journalism, which is something they've always stood against. I think they're still trying to test the waters on that, whether it works or not, what could be the downside.
Andrew Jaspan:
The second part to your question was, would we take the money? And the short answer, without being churlish is, yes we would. But, like all funding arrangements and agreements, Google or Facebook, were they to give us money, would have to accept that we remain an independent voice, that they cannot have any say over what we commission. They can't ask us to lay off certain areas and cover certain areas, all of that. And as long as those agreements were in place, which is the same, by the way, for any foundation or anybody else that would want to fund us, as long as that was the case and it was clear that we or I retained overall and ultimate control of the service, then the answer is we probably would take that their funding.
Tim Burrowes:
And you touched on News Corp, the Rupert Murdoch led organization. Earlier in your career, you worked for The Times and The Sunday times, which are a part of the empire. How do you think of the company? Because I always feel it's kind of painted a bit in naughts and ones, either they're everything that's wrong with journalism or they're everything that's right with journalism. And usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. How do you think of the organization?
Andrew Jaspan:
First of all is, I think the professional standards at News Corp are probably amongst the highest I've come across, in terms of just the basic craft of running newsrooms, disciplined newsrooms, chasing stories, chasing exclusives, and doing a really good job at packaging, selling, advertising their brands, and actually being very strong players in every market that they operate in.
Andrew Jaspan:
The downside is, it's agenda driven journalism. There is a clear Murdoch agenda which you sign up to, when you join a Murdoch organization. And there are certain things which are subjects, which you know if you work for any Murdoch outlet, is kind of the areas that they support and the areas they don't like.
Andrew Jaspan:
I remember when I joined The Sunday Times, Andrew Neil was my editor, and he really spelled this out. The way he did good and bad, he called sectors of the UK either sunset industries, sunrise or sunset. For example, he hated the coal miners, so he called them a sunset industry. He hated the BBC, so that was a sunset industry. Whereas the sunrise were the new players that didn't have unions and all the areas that they kind of ideologically agreed with, I guess. And none of this is really spelled out.
Andrew Jaspan:
I laugh every time when I hear people like Robert Thomson, who's the CEO of News Corp, say, "No editor is ever rung up by Rupert and told what to do." Well, Rupert doesn't operate that way. Rupert very carefully chooses editors. I don't mean him personally, although he does at the most senior positions, but broadly speaking Rupert's lieutenants make sure that they choose people who are "one of us." That's the term they use. You're either one of them or one of us. And then once you become anointed as a Murdoch editor or whatever, you know what the line is.
Andrew Jaspan:
There are meetings once, twice, three times a year, where all the executives gather and they hear from Murdoch and his thoughts about the world, what's up, what's down, and then they go away and just make a sure that their papers, in a sense, align with that.
Andrew Jaspan:
And where people disagree, they get short shift and they have to leave. You hear this over and over again. For example, on climate issues, anybody who kind of used to, although there's been a change, as you probably know, in Australia, in terms of a recognition that climate change actually is real. But previously to that, it was one of suppressing the real climate science story. And so, every paper took the same line, and so it goes on and on. I think you know most of this, Tim.
Andrew Jaspan:
As I say, it's a strongly driven, purpose driven, ideologically driven organization with extremely good professional journalists and editors, who deliver on that remit. And as such, they're very robust players in every market that they operate in.
Tim Burrowes:
When it comes time to write Rupert Murdoch's obituary, which could be another 10 or 15 years away, if you were asked, would you say that his contribution to journalism was a net positive or a net negative?
Andrew Jaspan:
Oh, I would come down probably as a net negative. And I don't mean that from the point of view of what he did on The Adelaide Advertiser. He clearly did a good job. But what he did, and I watched closely because you alluded to it earlier, to The Times and and Sunday Times. I worked on those papers, and I saw these papers, in many ways, become diminished as the kind of standard barriers of the highest quality journalism, in the UK.
Andrew Jaspan:
And then when I look at what Fox News has done, and I mean, I think Fox News has been probably the most divisive, destructive of force in America. But Rupert really saw an opportunity because the four other major broadcasters all held to a sort of narrow, broadly liberal viewpoint. And he saw an opportunity for something that was way off on the right, that would bring in the rednecks and others. He saw that opportunity, and he just went for it. He's made a huge amount of money. Fox I think makes more money than anything else for him, these days.
Andrew Jaspan:
But the downside is the destruction that it's created in America and society. And you speak to any American just about the impact of it, the polarization, the anger, the fury, and the quality of debate is diminished. And of course, out of all that, we had Trump who was very much promoted by the Fox organization.
Andrew Jaspan:
And so, at the end of the day, do I think the world's a better place, as in better informed? The answer is probably no, because what what Trump did, and what Fox did, was to essentially say there are alternative facts, in a sense. There are alternative ways of seeing the world. And that's come down a broad agreement around facts and evidence. You know the old saying, "You're entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts?" Well, that's now changed. People now, at Fox News particularly and some of the other outlets, say they're entitled to their own facts, alternative facts, and so on and so forth.
Andrew Jaspan:
So, I think it's unmade a lot of the best of the journalism in the world. But I can't lay all the fault of journalism there. There is the other issue, which is the structural change of the big search companies, particularly Google and Facebook, which are, at the end of the day, Tim, to be blunt, they're both advertising companies. And what they've done is, they've just sucked the advertising out of what used to be newspapers, radio, and television and moved it into search and all the advertising associated with that. That's where the real money is these days.
Andrew Jaspan:
And what's interesting is to see how those things are going to develop, because they will develop, and you will see, I think, Facebook and Google morph into different organizations. They will have to take on some form of responsibility for a lot of the damage that's been done, the ways it's kind of led to siloed discussions, where you have all the people who are anti-vaxxers talk to each other on that community page, and all the people who who support vaccinations speaking in another sort of loop, and different echo chains, et cetera.
Andrew Jaspan:
These are really big societal problems. They are being thought about. They are being addressed. At some stage, they will be solved. So, I think it's a really interesting period to watch closely, for how all this is going to unravel over the next five to ten years.
Tim Burrowes:
Well, as you allude to, Andrew, it is a subject we could talk about for hours, let alone minutes, but that's where we'd better leave it for now. My thanks to Andrew Jaspan, and have a great summer break, Andrew.
Andrew Jaspan:
Thank you very much, Tim. Enjoy your Christmas and all the best for 2022.
Tim Burrowes:
The Unmade Podcast is produced with the enthusiastic support of Abe's Audio. More soon. I'm Tim Burrowes. Toodlepip.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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We’re now into the start of Act 2 - The Reckoning.

Today’s chapter opens up with a cameo from one of the most misunderstood government ministers of recent years, Labor communications minister Stephen Conroy. Having put many of the digerati offside with his attempts to introduce a national internet filter, few took seriously Conroy’s warnings about the darker side of Google and Facebook. Perhaps we should have listened.

Today I recount how the introduction of Facebook’s News Feed in September 2006 changed the nature of social media, before the fast-growing machine pulled the first of many bait-and-switch stunts on marketers, and then nuked publisher traffic. In parallel, Google’s AdSense was on the rise, sowing the seeds of an existential threat for publishers as the company steadily took control every stage of the programatic advertising chain, while CPMs plummeted.

There was also innovation emerging in the publishing sector with a new wave of digital-first startups, and journalists developing new skills around publishing analytics Mia Freedman’s Mamamia signalled a new publishing wave, alongside Sarah Wilson’s I Quit Sugar empire and Wendy Harmer’s failed The Hoopla.

One of the great inventions of the era was Andrew Jaspan’s academia-driven The Conversation, while one of the disappointments was Monica Attard’s The Global Mail. But at least funder Graeme Wood was more succesful second time around, bankrolling The Guardian Australia (with a helping hand from Malcolm Turnbull). And The New Daily was another publication funded in an inventive new way, via the industry super funds.

This chapter also tells the story of the wave of exits including Junkee to Ooh Media; Pedestrian to Nine and Conversant Media to HT&E.

Today’s chapter is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available only to paying subscribers to Unmade. For just one more day, I’m offering a major discount on a year’s subscription, which is available via the button below. That price will not be repeated.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, corporate videos and commercials.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Have a great Friday.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

letters@unmade.media

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In this final chapter of Act 1, we explore the Australian radio industry at the first half of the previous decade. It was a time when Austereo’s two networks, Triple M and the Today network were dominant. Hamish Blake and Andy Lee’s national drivetime show had become a once-in-a-generation phenomenon and Kyle Sandilands and Jackie Henderson’s new pairing was starting to hit its stride, first with the Hot 30, then with Sydney breakfast.

But the takeover of Austereo by Southern Cross Media signalled a change of culture. As Kyle Sandilands later described it, the company went from the handshakes and cowboy boots of the Kirby family, to the corporate outlook of accountant Rhys Holleran.

And Australian radio kept being hit with controversies. That included Kyle & Jackie O’s infamous lie detector segment in which a teenage girl was quizzed about her sexual assault, and then Sandiland’s “piece of s**t” on air attack on a female journalist. Over at 2GB, Alan Jones was beginning to experience the growing power of social media to create advertiser boycotts.

And then, disastrously, came the suicide of nurse Jacintha Saldanha, over what should have been a harmless on-air prank from the inexperienced new hosts of the Hot 30, Michael ‘MC’ Christian and Mel Greig.

The duo ended up as the face of the tragedy, while those who took the management decisions to air the segment stayed behind the scenes.

Today’s chapter is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available only to paying subscribers to Unmade. For the next seven days, I’m offering a major discount on a year’s subscription, which is available via the button below. That price will not be repeated.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, corporate videos and commercials.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Have a great Friday.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the Unmade podcast.

Today’s guest is Rod Prosser, chief sales officer at ViacomCBS, parent company of Network Ten.

In today’s conversation, Prosser reflects upon his turbulent decade at Ten, the difference on-demand viewing is making to the linear TV equation, and his bullish prediction for 2022 revenues.

And he also reveals that Pluto TV - the ViacomCBS-owned ad supported video streaming service - is just months away from an Australian launch.

You can listen to the Unmade podcast via the player in this post. Unmade is also now available on all the major podcast apps.

Transcript:

Tim Burrowes (00:04):

Welcome to the Unmade podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. Well, we made it to the end of the official TV year. My guest today to talk about it is Rod Prosser, chief sales officer of ViacomCBS, who listeners will know best as the American based owner of Network 10. Welcome Rod.

Rod Prosser (00:24):

Hey Tim, how are you?

Tim Burrowes (00:25):

Mate, I'm very good. Thank you very much.

Rod Prosser (00:28):

Great. Great. Look, before we start, I'd just like to do a acknowledgement of the country if that's okay. I'd like to thank and acknowledge the traditional owners of the land, which I meet with you on today and pay my respects to the Elders, past and present.

Tim Burrowes (00:44):

Well, thank you for that and for doing the honours. Now I was looking on your LinkedIn profile. Next year, you'll mark a quarter of a century in media sales, almost all of it in television. Now that includes ten years with Nine, a couple of years in magazines with ACP, and a dozen years with Ten. I was thinking, you arrived just after CanWest had sold. Then there were a couple of years of relative stability on the ASX before things got a bit wild again when James Packer and Lachlan Murdoch invested. Grant Blackley was sacked as CEO a few months after you joined, James Warburton a couple of years after that, then there was the administration and being bought by CBS, which then merged with Viacom. Then COVID in 2020. Now, most people are going to look back on 2021 as an eventful year, but for you, I'm guessing it was kind of business as usual.

Rod Prosser (01:44):

It doesn't sound like there was a lot of stability, does it? Look, I think that COVID thing has been interesting. Certainly the journey Network 10 has been on over the last decade has been an interesting one and well documented. Look, I think my personal view is, is Ten has come out much stronger for all the changes and things that went through. But yeah, look, it's been an interesting ride and a really great one for me too, because of obviously through that period, as you just rightly pointed out, there's been obviously quite a number of various CEOs and leaders and I've been fortunate enough to work with them all and you learn good and bad from people. So I was really fortunate across the last decade with Ten and the number of changes that went through.

Tim Burrowes (02:36):

Well, one thing that interests me is now we've got this wider group. So we are two years into the merger or the re-merger, of Viacom and CBS. And it's starting to actually feel more like a group, even in Australia. You've got the former Viacom channels of MTV and Nickelodeon. Then in August we saw the launch of Paramount Plus. Do you wake up thinking still at heart you work for Ten, or do you actually feel like you're in a bigger group now?

Rod Prosser (03:07):

That's a really great question, Tim. The truth is we all wake up now feeling part of a bigger group because the integration that's happened over the course of, really, the last two years. With CBS, yes, we reported into the domestic business and that was fantastic. There was some great leaders in the business, and then obviously the Viacom CBS merge took place. That really defined, I think, us as part of being part of... We're of a global business, but a really strong connection into the international clusters. We are obviously falling into international, and our headquarters, if you like, is based in the UK. But within that cluster, there's Canada, there's Israel, there's obviously the UK and Australia. So we certainly get the sense that we're part of 1) a global business, but 2), as you rightly point out that the platform and the assets have really expanded. So we represent all the sales team represent all of our brands and assets on every platform. So we simply just can't wake up and think about Ten anymore. Otherwise, we'll be missing a trick or two.

Tim Burrowes (04:22):

Then I'm sure one of the challenges for you of course, is pretty much for the whole time that there's been this merged organisation or certainly the vast majority, you've been out in the office as well. So just having the opportunity to build a team culture must have been quite different.

Rod Prosser (04:38):

I think the culture part is really interesting, and I think that's something that not just our business, but most businesses would've struggled with over the last two years. We were quite fortunate in Australia that the vast majority of the team were already settled and part of Ten, I think the big emphasis that we needed to put on was really the newcomers that were coming into the broader business from Viacom. And indeed just more recently Paramount Plus. So I'm sure as soon as we're able and can get back into the office, there'll be a lot of social activity happening to really build that culture.

Tim Burrowes (05:21):

Let's talk about the programming year just gone. For you, what are the hits and highlights, and what are the ones where you think ‘We didn't quite get there on what we promised the market’?

Rod Prosser (05:38):

Yeah. Look, I'll start with how we're going to start next year, which is with I'm A Celebrity. That show has really redefined summer, as far as I'm concerned. For so many years, Tim, as you know, we were so heavily focused over that period just on sport and or with television, which was pretty bad when you look back at it now. We simply just dumped repeats across the summer period. As you know, we now work in a full year cycle. We don't just work to the ratings week. So we schedule for the full year. With having I'm A Celebrity there from the starting blocks and building that kind of momentum in the audience and creating a significant launch pad, for us, it's been such a terrific selling opportunity.

Tim Burrowes (06:36):

With Celebrity, obviously this year not being able to go overseas for it, did that make a difference, do you think?

Rod Prosser (06:44):

I actually, from our point of view, it's better from a commercial point of view, because obviously traveling product, locally or domestically, is a lot easier than getting it overseas. Now the programmers might think something different, but certainly from our point of view, it didn't impact the writings whatsoever. It was, as I said, a lot easier to integrate our sponsors.

Tim Burrowes (07:09):

Well, one of the ironies is last week is, I'm speaking to you from the UK, where there's the UK version of I'm A Celebrity which wasn't able to come to Australia to film and they lost four days of live programming to storms. So I guess one of the things Australia has is at least slightly more reliable weather.

Rod Prosser (07:29):

That's very true, and plenty of creepy crawlies that still build a lot of fear into the celebrities.

Tim Burrowes (07:39):

So. Okay. And going back to looking back at the year, so you are happy with the start to the year with I'm A Celebrity. How do you feel it unfolded from there?

Rod Prosser (07:51):

Look, the start was excellent, it always builds that momentum for us, as I said. Obviously we had some nuances in our schedule this year because of Covid. One of those being Survivor ran later than it would normally. Thankfully, because I think it gives us great momentum, even though the Amazing Race did amazing things, Survivor moving back into its home in post-Celebrity, the right place.

Tim Burrowes (08:19):

Yeah. Because you were hoping for two seasons, weren't you of Survivor, initially?

Rod Prosser (08:23):

Yeah. I think we sort of decided that, but well look, we often ran two in a year, I think this year we went back to... We could only do one, so we only ever scheduled the one, but it had to run later just because of timing and Covid and we had to obviously pivot it originally. Traditionally we shoot it in Fiji. Obviously it was then housed in Queensland and will be again. So we do have to pivot, so yes, we may have had thoughts around how could we run too, but I think the idea is always just to have one series running a year, because it's a heavy production. So having that back into its original slot, if you like, is going to continue that momentum straight into mastership. So I think as you look at the highs and the lows, there's probably some key franchises that we're disappointing. But having said that, I think that in terms of numbers, having said that commercially all of our big Ten poll programs have been a success.

Rod Prosser (09:26):

I think that any franchise kind of gets to a point where it needs to have be somewhat reinvented. I think certainly the programmers are looking at what franchises need that sort of freshening up. The other thing that we were challenged with this year was various lockdowns. I think all networks suffered slightly from people being... Well, actually gained some upside with people being locked into their house, obviously, but obviously when freedom was given to people, they were out and about. So we did have some impacts around timing, some of our franchises. So it's probably not fair to look at the pure thousands as success or not success because it really was quite an unusual year.

Tim Burrowes (10:11):

Maybe when we talk about sort of a series which certainly were perceived to underperform in numbers, we might find ourselves talking about The Bachelorette. Before we do, in context, what I found really interesting about Ten this year was, if I think back about its various presentations to the market, it gave a great deal of thought to how it positioned itself. There were two messages I was left with. One was Under-50s and the ironically disputed word “undisputed”. And the other thing was the message about being the most progressive of the commercial networks when it came to things like being the... I'm pretty sure the first network to do a Welcome to Country before the U pfront, for instance.

Tim Burrowes (10:59):

So I suppose when we think about The Bachelorette, the first bisexual competitor, for instance, it clearly played a bigger role within the position of where the network wants to be seen, and where it wants to be seen in the national conversation. How did you feel about the numbers? I guess my question really is, are you taking middle Australia with you, or are you slightly too far ahead of them at the moment, do you think?

Rod Prosser (11:35):

Look, regardless whether we're slightly ahead of them, I think you've got to take a stance. Our business really is a value driven business, both locally and globally, and we just continue to strive to do better and make positive changes in the world we live in. We're acutely aware that we have a platform and a voice that reaches globally over four, 4.5 billion, but obviously locally you know our numbers... And that comes with a responsibility. It's our job to raise the bar, not lower the conversation. I think that we will continue to make sure that we have a diverse representation onscreen and behind screen. To be honest with you, The Bachelorette, we were super proud of. I know the brands that leant in and sponsors were equally proud of it because of what it stood for.

Rod Prosser (12:29):

I think that we need to have, the measurement is, and the thousands is one part, but then there needs to be, which I keep pulling out to the industry, we need to have another measurement. And that simply has to be: what's the diversity on screen? You make a good call because it is a fine balance, but ultimately if it's good TV and it represents all of this country and all the different faces and all the different genders, then you should have a winning model. So I'm sure and confident that we'll continue to be able to deliver that and continue to be able to find an audience that follow it.

Tim Burrowes (13:17):

One of the other questions, for television on any network at the moment is, we're seeing overnight broadcast numbers go down. There's no doubt about that. This year, for the TV industry as a whole, and of course this was also the year that VOZ launched, which gives us a sort of wider picture. How does that affect the conversation that you have with the advertisers and the media agencies? Is it as easy to monetise catch up viewing as it is broadcast viewing? Or is there still some progress to go on that too?

Rod Prosser (13:59):

Look, there's a lot of demand in catch-up. I would say that. So we call it on demand, not catch-up anymore. So with our BVOD product, the market is quite hot and we'll continue to see significant growth. The question I think you're asking is can we make up the revenue on the BVOD as we have declining audiences on linear? The answer to that is yes. We will be able to, and of course live TV is enabling us to monetise even further, but that's why the whole ecosystem's really important for us. We call it our playground, but how we push and pull the audience around our playground, if you like, is really critical.

Rod Prosser (14:49):

Of course, Paramount Plus plays into that. We will soon launch another AVOD service in this market. Obviously we've got a fairly significant AVOD service being Pluto TV that's being rolled out globally, and that will equally play into it. So I think it's actually about how do you sort of manage both linear and digital together? At some point, the digital revenue will outgrow the linear, but at this point it really is, Tim I hate to use this term, but it's the meat and potatoes and drives the biggest part of our revenue. So it's super important to us. We'll continue investing in the linear. You'll continue to see high quality good content being produced for the linear screen, but equally next year we'll grow our library on 10play. So there's a lot of investment going in there as well.

Tim Burrowes (15:42):

For people who aren't familiar with Pluto, which you just referred to, that's been a real phenomenon out in the US, hasn't it? So that effectively, as I suppose - tell me if I'm understanding it wrongly - but I'd see it almost as a sister service to Paramount Plus, but of course advertising supported, but quite a deep library, and it's been driving some quite big audience numbers. So we'll see that in 2022 here in Australia then, will we?

Rod Prosser (16:12):

Look, I'm probably letting the cat out of the bag a little bit here, but I'm not quite sure of the exact launch date, but one thing I can tell you is it's coming and it won't be too far off. We're not talking years off. So, obviously we've got to get other things ready and right. But it's certainly on its way to Australia at some point.

Tim Burrowes (16:35):

And that in much the same way that we saw 10 All Access become Paramount Plus presumably we'd see 10play become Pluto, would we? Or would it sit alongside the two?

Rod Prosser (16:50):

I'm not sure that's right, Tim. I think these are the new nuances and the structure that we need to look at, what's going to be best to serve our audiences and of course our advertising partners. So we haven't landed that yet, still a lot of work to do, but I can't see how they would merge, but at this point, look, we're really enthusiastic about the 10play product. So we, as I said, we'll continue to invest and grow that library to grow the overall minutes.

Tim Burrowes (17:21):

Now, something you touched on about the importance of live TV of course is arguably the two staples of live TV are sport and news. Arguably, if I had to pick the three sales directors, you've got the toughest job because you've got the least sport and arguably the least news resource as well. Is that a fair observation?

Rod Prosser (17:45):

I love being an underdog, Tim. It's the way we roll. Look, I don't see it that way. I mean, I'm sure others might, but I don't see it that way. I see we have such a huge opportunity with football, otherwise known as soccer in this country, but we're now the home of football and we position ourselves that way. We'll continue to grow that sport. Look, we always went into football knowing that it was such a huge opportunity to grow the sport. It meant a lot to us in terms of how that positions, it's really inclusive, it's diverse, it certainly stood for a lot of the things that we stood for, so it made a lot of sense. And of course it's a global game.

Rod Prosser (18:34):

So when we talk to our counterparts within the business, they understand the game. So it was really kind of a no brainer, but look, the opportunity for us is: it is the highest participated sport in this country. We turned that participation into viewers and they we’re into winning gold. So, I think that's the opportunity. I wouldn't say that we’ve got the toughest job. We've had commercial partners come out of the wood works and wanted to support it and be a part of it. So we're enthusiastic about that. Obviously we've got some marquee events which are marquee events, but we've got the AGP, Australian Grand Prix, and indeed Spring Carnival week, which we've just, not too long ago rolled out of, which are huge ratings and money drivers for the business. Also, a lot of fun to attend.

Tim Burrowes (19:31):

With A League, I presume something like that takes a year or two to really get all of the sponsors aligned. So presumably these few months, we are not really seeing everything you'd hope to see yet in terms of support.

Rod Prosser (19:45):

Well, look, I think from sponsors, we've got the commitments and the categories that we were chasing. So I'm really pleased with where we've landed and we've actually exceeded expectations commercially. The journey now we have is to really get Australians aware that it's actually being broadcast and where it's being broadcast, obviously a lot of the games are on Paramount Plus. That's a really good subs driver for us, but equally we want to make it available to all Australians. So there's games on 10play. Of course, there's games on Ten as well. So we always knew it was a building journey with this sport, but we've been really encouraged with both A-League's ratings and of course the international games, they dominated the demos and have performed really well for us. But yeah, it's a long partnership. We've got five years, we've taken equity within the APL. So we're behind it 100%.

Tim Burrowes (20:53):

Well before we start looking forward to next year, a couple other bits of housekeeping. It seems like a million years ago, but I remember we were talking about how there was a plan to bring James Corden to Australia, your upfronts friend, James Corden who had done the opening video with him. Is that back on the agenda for next year, are you likely to get him out in 2022, do you think?

Rod Prosser (21:20):

We'd love to get him out, and I know James would love to come out. It's a logistic thing more than anything, obviously Covid has created the headache for us that made it not possible when we wanted to, but we are always talking to the guys at CBS on how we can make that possible. We haven't, obviously we haven't slated a date, but we'll continue to talk to him and find a way soon hopefully, Tim.

Tim Burrowes (21:45):

Well, yeah, let's talk about next year. One of the things which certainly makes life interesting for me to write about is it feels that of the three networks, Ten is the one which has got the most new formats coming through. Which is from your point of view, I suppose, both interesting and an element of risk because you haven't got the familiarity factor of an existing format just rolling out again. How are you thinking about the coming year? What sort of promises are you making to sponsors about audiences for some of the new shows?

Rod Prosser (22:17):

Yeah, I mean, we've spent a lot of time with our agency partners, our consortiums, as we call them. Indeed, our incumbent sponsors around where we're going to see the audience growth next year. We have growth built into our schedule, no question. We think a lot of things will be normalized next year, particularly as hopefully we roll into what will be a much more normal year, less impact from Covid. So we know that there's pockets and areas where we needed to focus on. I'll take Master Chef as an example. Obviously, that was in a very different position last year. Everyone was in their homes and the ratings went through the roof, great new format in terms of the way we positioned it, where all the ex-contestants came back. Indeed, we launched out our new judges, which we were so pleased we had such a fresh looking show.

Rod Prosser (23:17):

Then this year, obviously, as I said, nuanced because of lockdowns, et cetera, but we also knew that we needed to have a stronger hook. So next year we go into Master Chef with a lot of the ex-contestants, including Julie Goodwin returning to really challenge it out in the kitchen. So we know that we've got a lot of enthusiastic partners already wanting to come onboard and we know there's going to be growth in the thousands on that. So, that's a great example of about how we can tweak a format to really lift the audience. Then of course, as we get into the second half, and actually to be honest with you, our thousands in our ratings right in this period now have grown. So we're pleased about that. Look, the commitments we've made to our agencies in consortiums is around growth, and indeed both audience growth and commercial share growth. We are pretty confident around doing that.

Tim Burrowes (24:20):

I guess in terms of investment in new formats, Hunted would be the biggest one.

Rod Prosser (24:24):

Yeah. Look, firstly, I think it's really important that we keep delivering new formats. The audience, our audience craves for that. We talk about a progressive audience just rolling out a consistent schedule is great, but you also need to pepper that with new formats and something fresh, and our audience expects that from us. So, even if that's a show that sits at 8:30 at night, or if it's a big franchise, their expectation is that we'll deliver something fresh. Hunted is a great format that's worked overseas that we're really confident that will do great things out here. It's going to be shot in Melbourne, it's really fresh, it's really different and it's like nothing else that's on the TV screens at the minute.

Tim Burrowes (25:17):

What sort of age demographic do you think it will be attractive to?

Rod Prosser (25:20):

Well, again, acquisition models always around the Under-50s, and look, the bullseye will be 25-54. I mean, I think that's the interesting thing if you look at our schedule, Tim, from really from that 6:00 PM to 10:30, we have the highest concentration of 25-54s. Actually, most of the demos, we have 45% of our audience of half of our audience let’s call it, sitting within the 25-54 demo over that time slot. Which is vastly different to our competitors, which some skew much older. Whereas, over 65s, we have such a small percentage within that time slot. So, Hunted and all our new formats are always targeted in the demos, they'll never skew old. I don't think we'd never get the older audiences anyway, even when we play Dancing with the Stars, which just does skew very old, we still had a much younger medium-age across that format.

Tim Burrowes (26:29):

I think if I remember rightly, I think you did even better again, proportionally, in 16-39 than 25-54, didn't you? I guess I always wonder why you don't just lean into that one a bit more.

Rod Prosser (26:44):

Yeah. Look, I think that's a really interesting demo. Of course yes, you're right, we do fare better. In fact, we kind of see it's around eight of the top 15, in 16-39s are on Ten. Look, the truth is, is that demographic is consuming content across a whole heap of platforms. We see a big surge, particularly in our on demand services of that demo. Of course in SVOD. Yes, you're right. Indeed, we do lean into it. It's around how do we capture them across all of our platforms to kind of pull them across the broader Ten, ViacomCBS assets.

Tim Burrowes (27:30):

Just to put this year's “undisputed” under-50s claim to bear. I get the sense you are explaining what you mean in a slightly different way now. Do you think, on reflection, maybe when you first went to the market with the “undisputed” under-50s network, you maybe went a little bit too far, do you think?

Rod Prosser (27:52):

No, I don't. I think we've always made it really clear that we have a higher percentage of the under-50s. I think it's amusing that we've been criticised around that because on one hand everyone's talking around hyper-targeting and they want less wastage. Then on the other hand, they're saying, "Oh, but a total people audience is the right one to look at." Buyers don't buy it like that, you know that Tim. They buy demographics and they target demographics. If we can deliver them efficiently without wastage, then in my mind, we are undisputed within those demos and within that demographic.

Tim Burrowes (28:36):

I did get a bit of a sense this year that maybe the different networks weren't quite as good at speaking with one voice about television. We saw, James Warburton from Seven came out and talked a bit about how the industry as a whole should be talking about overnight ratings, versus later ones, and there was some debate there. Again, everyone seems to make slightly different claims about their tech stacks. Again, some different arguments about which metrics really count when it comes to on demand viewing. Do you think the TV industry can get back to speaking with one voice again?

Rod Prosser (29:20):

Yes, I do. I think, look, it's in our best interest. I have to say behind the scenes there's a lot of cohesive discussions going on, whether that's through ThinkTV or whether that's through OzTam on how we best position ourselves as an industry. So there is a lot of work being done on how we unite and come together. I honestly have a lot of faith in the industry. It's like no other medium. It reaches more Australians every day than any other medium. As the measurement evolves, we just need to get super aligned, and that work's being done now. We've obviously got a new chair sitting on OzTam who's really enthusiastic, Mark Buckman, around bringing the team together. So I have no doubts that we will land a position, which is a united front.

Tim Burrowes (30:21):

Well, again, I suppose I think about you and the difference between you and your two competitors, which is, they're on an Australian financial year and you owned by a US company, which has a calendar financial year. So I guess you’ll have just locked in your 2022 budget. Thing about being in your role is you have to make some promises that you think you can keep. So have you promised your bosses a return to 2019 revenue levels?

Rod Prosser (30:49):

Actually, I mean, be honest with you Tim, our revenue expectations are higher than 2019. We've been really fortunate commercially to grow our revenue share and our overall revenue across the last two years. So I'm really pleased with the sales team. I think part of that is that we sort of don't look behind us. We don't spend a lot of time worrying about what you call our competitors are doing, whether it's Seven and Nine. The sales team are singularly focused on what they can deliver and they're ideas-centric. So that's really resonated with the market, and off the back of that, we've been really successful, as I said, at growing our revenue and our revenue share, but also our premium, what we can offer advertisers in terms of our integration and sponsorship, partnership elements, is been really well received. So our expectation and the company's expectation is greater than that of what we delivered in 2019.

Tim Burrowes (32:00):

Big promise. That is where we leave it. My thanks to Rod Prosser. If it's not too early to say it, have a great Christmas break, Rod.

Rod Prosser (32:08):

You too Tim. It was wonderful chatting to you today. Yes, have a very Merry Christmas.

Tim Burrowes (32:14):

The Unmade podcast is produced with the enthusiastic support of Abe's Audio. More soon. I'm Tim Burrowes. Toodlepip.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the latest edition of the the Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features another free extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

This chapter focuses on the bubbles and the booms of Australian media in the last decade. I explore the rise and fall of group buying; the inflating content marketing bubble; and how the outdoor advertising industry reinvented itself with the help of the MOVE measurement system and digital billboards,

The chapter opens just over ten years ago, on stage at Mumbrella360 in June 2011, where we gathered the bosses of the big group buying sites - Colin Fabig, Hezi Leibovich, Dean McEvoy and Billy Tucker.

On stage, Tucker insisted that group buying was no bubble. Within a few months, most of the group buying brands were going out of business.

There was also a boom going on in content marketing, with Craig Hodges’s King Content selling to the John Croll-led Isentia at the top of the market, and the boss of CPA Alex Malley deciding that he should be the face of the accountancy profession.

And then there was the decade-long rise of the outdoor advertising industry, fuelled by digital, data and private equity. If there was a single moment that set up the outdoor industry up for success, it was a gathering of the clans at the Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron. Brendon Cook, Richard Herring, Steve McCarthy, Gerry Thorley and Brian Tyquin - the godfathers of today’s outdoor adveretising industry signed off on the MOVE project, led by Ian Muir and John Grono.

Today’s chapter is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available to paying subscribers to Unmade. For the next two weeks, I’m offering a major discount on a year’s subscription, which is available via the button below. That price will not be repeated.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, corporate videos and commercials.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Enjoy the weekend.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to the latest edition of the the Unmade podcast. Today’s edition features another extract from the audio edition of my book, Media Unmade, which is published by Hardie Grant and available online and in book stores.

In today’s chapter, we look back at the last time the ABC was riding high, as managing director Mark Scott and director of innovation Ian Carroll led the charge into the digital future.

The chapter explores how the ABC took a lead over its commercial competitors, and the strategic approach that allowed the double act of Scott and chairman Maurice Newman to roam the corridors of Canberra to win extra funding for the organisation.

The developments included the launch of News 24, the creation of iView, and the move to online news - opening a new front in the organisation’s decades-long battle with News Corp which was in the process of introducing paywalls.

The chapter also investigates the regulatory environment, as then communications minister Stephen Conroy sought to challenge the moguls. This included through Glen Boreham’s Convergence Review and Ray Finkelstein’s Independent Media Inquiry. Eventually Conroy’s attempts to give bite to a successor to the toothless tiger of the Australian Communications and Media Authority was thwarted.

And then came confrontation with the new Coalition government with communications minister Malcolm Turnbull and prime minister Tony Abbott kicking off what were to be years of Liberal hostility to the organisation.

Today’s chapter is free to all subscribers. Some future chapters will only be available to paying subscribers to Unmade. For the next 20 days, I’m offering a major discount on a year’s subscription, which is available via the button below. That price will not be repeated.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, corporate videos and commercials.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Enjoy the weekend.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade.

This podcast instalment continues my narration of the audio version of my book Media Unmade, which you can buy in bookshops and online.

If you’d like to listen in the audio app of your choice, you can do so by clicking on the tiny link next to the audio player above. I’ve now managed to submit the podcast to the major audio apps directly, apart from Apple Podcasts which - like many aspects of Apple’s podcasting app - is a byzantine nightmare. But we’ll keep plugging away on that.

In today’s chapter, I share the story of the Nine Network at its lowest ebb.

By the time David Gyngell returned to run the network in 2007, Nine had lost its way following the death of Kerry Packer. Ratings were a disaster, morale was at an all time low and the banks were circling. Eddie McGuire’s short tenure as CEO hadn’t helped either.

The turnaround that Gyngell performed deserves to be taught in business schools. He floated the company on the ASX, completed the deals to become a five-city rather than three-city metro network, and untangled the unhelpful NineMSN joint venture with Microsoft. Along with Mike Sneesby, he was also the driving force behind the launch of Stan.

But first he had to go through the pain barrier of the rise of social media as a brutal, real time arbiter of programming, and flop after flop.

And then they commissioned The Voice, and it all began to turn around…

This chapter also explains how the TV ratings system OzTam woirks.

Among the characters covered in today’s episode are David Gyngell, Mike Sneesby, Adrian Swift, Michael Healy, James Packer, Mia Freedman. Mark Llewelyn, Ben Elton, and the appearance of a low profile executive called Hugh Marks.

Audio production on Media Unmade comes courtesy of Abe’s Audio, the people to talk to about voiceovers, corporate videos and commercials.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button below.

Some future episodes of this audio edition will only be available to paying subscribers. You can subscribe to Unmade - and support independent journalism covering the media sector - via the button below.

Enjoy the weekend.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Here comes the third chapter of the audio version of my book Media Unmade, covering the history of Australian media’s most disruptive decade. It’s published by Hardie Grant. If you’d like to purchase a copy of the text version, you can do so online, and in bookstores.

In this chapter, I chronicle News Corp at its lowest ebb, including the Melbourne Storm cheating scandal, former Herald Sun editor Bruce Guthrie’s lawsuit and the News of the World phone hacking scandal.

The chapter also covers the company’s early moves into paywalls for The Australian, its failed stewardship of MySpace, and the arrival of Kim Williams, with his declaration that “the order of the tummy compass” was over.

To add a feed of this podcast into the app of your choice, follow the link next to the player. It’s more straightforward than you’d think.

Some chapters will only be available to Unmade’s paying subscriber tier. To make sure you don’t miss out - and to support independent journalism - sign up today.

My thanks go to Abe’s Audio for their usual outstanding production assistance.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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With the last-but-one radio ratings of the year released this week, radio commentator Vivienne Kelly joined me to analyse the numbers.

Before her time as content director of Radio Today, Vivienne was editor of Mumbrella. She is about to launch her new industry podcast That’s Entertainment with Jake Challenor.

Ratings discussion points:

Wendy Harmer and Robbie Buck’s lap of honour for ABC Sydney;

2GB’s breakfast boost and drivetime problem;

3AW’s daily dominance of Melbourne;

Fifi, Fev and Nick’s struggle for Fox FM in Melbourne;

Marty Sheargold’s slow start for Triple M in Melbourne;

The close battle in Brisbane;

A new breakfast leader in Adelaide;

Mix 94.5 Perth’s tricky trip

As well as the ratings, we discuss:

The surprising cancellation of the Australian Commercial Radio Awards;

Whether Fitzy & Wippa’s time at the helm of Nova Sydney’s breakfast show is coming to an end;

Whether Dave Hughes will ever move to Sydney for 2Day FM’s Morning Crew, or is it time to rework 2DayFM’s format?;

The continuing speculation about a live national show for Australian Radio Network’s Kyle & Jackie O;

What deal will ARN’s owner HT&E do in the coming media consolidation?;

An outlandish merger prediction involving HT&E, QMS and Seven West Media. Who would be in charge: Ciaran Davis or James Warburton?

Apologies, by the way, that I sounded somewhat under water during the recording. Having planned to record a few hours after arriving in the UK, I belatedly discovered that I lacked a vital connector for my microphone, so was forced to record this one on my laptop mic. Normal services will return next time.

As ever, I welcome your thoughts to letters@unmade.media, or via the comment button.

Have a great day.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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In today’s podcast episode of Unmade, I chat to Michael Stephenson, sales boss of Nine.

The timing was ahead of this week’s Nine annual general meeting and, coincidentally, just after Stephenson celebrated ten years in charge of what is now the country’s largest media sales operation.

The discussion covers the ratings year, the rise of ad-supported streaming, the rival networks’ techstack battles and the move to a national sales operation.

During the conversation, Stephenson reveals that from July 1, WIN staff will become Nine employees. I think that’s new info. At the time of Nine’s 2022 upfronts back in September, the company announced it was integrating its sales team with that of its regional affiliate WIN Corporation, but did not spell out that the staff would change employer.

With WIN represented on the Nine board by CEO Andrew Lancaster, and WIN owner Bruce Gordon now Nine’s biggest shareholder, it’s starting to feel like we all failed to notice that there had been a virtual merger between Nine and WIN, rather than a traditional affiliate deal.

And also new, was that it felt like Stephenson went further in acknowledging how bad the impact of the cyber attack was, than Nine has done previously, including the need to rebuild its SME platform Voyager.

Transcript:

Tim Burrowes:

Welcome to the Unmade podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. Nine's Annual General Meeting takes place on Thursday. It's been an unusual year for Australia's largest local media company. The second half of a pandemic, a change of CEOs, a ransomware attack. Just some of the things that you don't usually see. The man in charge of keeping the revenue ship afloat is Chief Sales Officer Michael Stephenson, who joins me now. Welcome, Stepho.

Michael Stephenson:

Thanks Tim. Thanks for having me.

Tim Burrowes:

Now, before we talk about this year, I noticed looking on your LinkedIn profile that you've just celebrated your 10 year anniversary since becoming Director of Sales for Nine, which was back in September 2011. Now that was long before the merger with Fairfax, of course. I think it's fair to say that Nine was kind of in the doldrums back then. The banks were circling. There were a bunch of ratings misses. What did you think you were getting yourself into?

Michael Stephenson:

Gosh, well, thanks for reminding me that it's been 10 years. I would not have remembered that myself. Oh, you know what? I've always loved media and I've loved television. And of course I've been in this role for 10 years, but I've been at Nine now for 15 years in a whole range of different roles. And I love Nine. I'm very passionate about it. But as you rightly point out, a lot has changed since that moment. We were recovering as a business at that particular point in time. We would've had two linear TV channels, I think back then. NineMSN would've been a business.

Michael Stephenson:

And of course you fast forward to today and we are Australia's largest and most diverse media company. We have a whole range of assets and we've evolved from being just a content business to a content data and technology company. So, we've really positioned ourselves well, I think, for the future. I've been very fortunate to have been a part of that and been involved in a lot of those decisions. And so it's been a pretty fascinating journey. And mind you, I think the next part of it's going to be equally as exciting. There's a lot of incredible things just about to happen.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, before we look too far forward, let's talk about 2021. Which also was unusually an Olympic year. Seven had the rights. How does that influence your sales strategy for the network? When you know that there's this big lump, which is going to drag some revenue into the TV sector as a whole, but also it's going to change how you plan for the year. How do you think about it?

Michael Stephenson:

The Olympic games clearly is a significant one-off event. It happens every four years, but whilst I enjoyed watching it we don't spend that much time really thinking about what our competitors are doing in and around that space. We've got our own business. We think about our content and the consistency of that content through the year. It starts with the Australian Open, goes right through until December. We're way more focused on what we're doing than what others are doing. And of course, next year it won't be there and we will continue on. From a TV point of view it's about having that consistency of ratings delivery right through the year. Whether that's news or whether that's sport or whether that's our entertainment formats. I think advertisers really want consistency of audience delivery. And I think that's been our great strength.

Tim Burrowes:

And we're kind of approaching that point in the year. Hey, maybe we're even here with the AGM coming up. We're certainly approaching that point in the year where we start calling winners and losers in the ratings. Winners for the year et cetera. It strikes me that it's become a lot more complex now. So we have network share, primary channel share, total viewing, including catch up and BVOD. Metro versus national, the different demographics. Of a morning, you have to look at one number first. Which number do you look at first and why?

Michael Stephenson:

You say it's complicated. I actually don't think it's complicated. I actually think it's pretty simple. We have ratings from the 1st of January to the 31st of December, every year. We have ratings for all of our channels. From the moment we start broadcasting in the morning to the moment where we're finish in the evening. And so if you think about all channels all day, against the thing that matters to advertisers, which is demographics. And in particular three. 16 to 39 year olds, 25 to 54 year olds and grocery shoppers with children. That is the vast majority of advertising campaigns are bought against those demographics. Then we are the undisputed leader. We win in all of those demographics. This will be our sixth year of dominance. And so I look at it through that lens.

Michael Stephenson:

Now of course, at different times, different agencies or advertisers might look at specific segments. Someone might look at primetime on the main channel as an example, because it's where they spend the vast majority of their money. If you look at it through that lens, we're the leader again, 16-39, 25-54, grocery shoppers with children. We'll win that as well again for the sixth year in a row. So however people want to look at it, I think that's fine. We win in all of those, against every one of those metrics. And I think that's really important to advertisers. It's what they buy. They're looking for a return on their investment. And with us, you get scale because we're the leader. Scale because we're number one. And a consistency right through the year.

Michael Stephenson:

The metric is really simple. 1st of January, 31st of December, all channels against the demos. Now, as you mentioned, the Olympic games earlier on, of course, what advertisers do, and marketers, is they exclude one-off or special events. And as I reference, the Olympics. Wasn't their last year. Won't be there next year. And therefore, or it's excluded from any analysis.

Tim Burrowes:

Although I'm sure Seven would argue differently, obviously.

Michael Stephenson:

We can't really argue it. That's been the way it has been forever. And it makes complete sense because when marketers are making decisions around their advertising investment, they need an apples for apples comparison. And so they compare one period to were another period and you remove one-off events. And last time I looked, Tim, that was a one-off event.

Tim Burrowes:

And one of the things I'm curious about is you... Hey look, we're recording this not long after the ratings will have come in for this morning. What do you look to first? You open your phone. Do you just look at how a show from last night did? Because there must be something you look for first. Where would you usually go personally?

Michael Stephenson:

Straight to the top. Overnight ratings are still incredibly important, but I think everybody does need to realize that they're only a part of the story. So, in the morning when I get the ratings report come through, I go straight to 25 to 54 year olds. I look at how many shows we had in the top 10, what our share of the evening was against that demographic. And importantly, I look at what percentage of our total audience was against the demographic. Regularly, we are somewhere between 50 and 60% of our total audience is in the demo. And that's really, really important. So that's where I would go to first, every morning. Followed very quickly by what happened in live streaming and what happened on demand for the previous day as well.

Michael Stephenson:

The notion of total television is a real thing. It is the future of television. The ability to connect with audiences as they consume content, either via the live signal, via a live stream or on demand. So when we're thinking about the success of a particular piece of content, you've got to look at it across all of those platforms. There's some great examples. Love Island right now, of course is on air and on 9Now. Episode number one has just ticked over 800,000 viewers. Of course, on demand and live streaming viewing is the major driver of that audience number. So looking at it holistically is critical and really important.

Tim Burrowes:

Love Island is a really interesting example, I guess because it skews to a younger audience. That show's probably a really good indicator of where the trends are going. And as you say, there are some episodes now where there are more people who've watched it on BVOD, broadcast video on demand, than watched it when it went out on linear TV. Assuming we take that as the sign to come, how should did that affect how marketers and media agencies plan and how you trade with them, as that becomes the new reality?

Michael Stephenson:

I think it's a really interesting point, because I'm not sure that's the reality for everything. I think what's interesting about Love Island, when we played on Channel Nine, if we played at 8:30 or 9:30 or 10:30, it actually doesn't change the audience profile at all. And the reason why that is, is because they're the people who are viewing that content, they're what I would call fanatics. They are lovers of Love Island and so they find it.

Michael Stephenson:

Now, of course, increasingly because of the demographic profile of the show, it obviously skews a lot younger. They are increasingly watching it via our live stream or on demand. But if you think of about tent-pole shows or sport or news, and the like. Whilst people will increasingly view on other platforms or connected devices, the foundation of that yesterday, today, tomorrow, and for probably as long as we can see, linear television will still be the foundation and the driver of audience. And that's really important if you're an advertiser, because when advertisers are buying advertising campaigns, they are trying to maximize reach. And of course, they're trying to do that efficiently. And so I think the challenge for advertisers, and it's why VOZ is clearly so important, is what is the mix of advertising in both linear television, within a live stream and on demand, to maximize your reach and do that at the minimal cost?

Tim Burrowes:

VOZ, for Virtual Australia, the overall measure.

Michael Stephenson:

That's right. There is an optimal allocation of funds across all of those platforms, which will allow you to maximize your reach and reduce the cost of every incremental reach point. And that is of course the role of media buyers. And so you're increasingly seeing people talking about total television for those two reasons. And I think that's fascinating because that is the science, if you like, in media buying. The ability to analytically make decisions to maximize those returns, I think is really important.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, we are well into the final quarter now for the ratings year. Any more twists to come? Or is it pretty much, do we know where we are now do you think?

Michael Stephenson:

I think in terms of who is the leader? Who is the number one network against those demographics? I think that race has run. And of course that's us. We're the leader by more than two points against 16 to 39 year olds. We're the leader by almost four points against 25 to 54 year olds and over four points against grocery shoppers with children. So we will, once again like I said, win the year. That's really important for advertisers because it's how they will allocate their investment into the following year. But there are still twists and turns.

Tim Burrowes:

In fairness to Seven, we have to note that they'll win total people though. Not that you care about that?

Michael Stephenson:

No, absolutely Channel Seven will win total people. And we will come second against people 65 plus. So we won't win those two. But the things that advertisers buy, those three demos, we will win that. And to your point around, are there more twist and turns? There are because Parental Guidance has got off to a cracker of a start. So there's some really interesting stuff coming over the next couple of weeks in that show. And then of course we've got the Lego Christmas content and we obviously have Snack Masters. So there's a lot of premium Australian content to come on Nine between now and Christmas.

Tim Burrowes:

The Block's obviously gone well in the end, but did it give you a bit of a scare when it started slowly this year?

Michael Stephenson:

This is not new news, but these types of formats generally have a hockey stick shape to their audience performance. So they start strongly, after the course of the two or three weeks, you see the audience come back a little and then of course you see that build towards the finale. And that's exactly what we've seen again. We've had many, many, many seasons of The Block. It is got to be the most valuable show on television because audiences love it. Increasingly they love it across all platforms. And brands love it as well, because it's a show built for brands to integrate into. And this season didn't disappoint in terms of, I would say, innovative integration and brand storytelling that we brought to life. It's been another great year for The Block. And next year, of course, it goes to the bush. So more twists and turns.

Tim Burrowes:

Let's talk about Galaxy. So you've invested heavily in allowing brands to effectively match their own first party data. And to then make looking to cross the network, everything apart from maybe channel primetime. You announced that in Nine's upfront this year. Seven and Ten made similar announcements. One thing I found myself sort of thinking about from the outsider perspective was that, once you heard from everybody, it's actually quite hard to tell what's real, what smoke and mirrors? And I'm not sure that's necessarily a good thing for television as a medium as a whole. So you're a board member of ThinkTV, the industry body for television. Are you yet in a position where you can speak as an industry, as a whole, clearly about what television actually is able to offer across the board towards marketers' tech stacks?

Michael Stephenson:

There are a whole range of projects ongoing at an industry level, whereby Seven, Nine, Ten and Foxtel can come together to make the transaction of television easier, if you like. We're doing a lot of work with third party software suppliers right now. Ensuring that all of the agency systems of Oz ready. And we're doing that as an industry. The ability to standardize things like file types and the technical transaction of data between TV company and agency. All of these things are happening in the background. Will that be one system that everybody can access to buy television? And the answer that is no.

Michael Stephenson:

And therefore Seven, Nine, Ten and Foxtel are either building or licensing their own. Of course for us, it's Galaxy. That is a real thing. It exists. And we have some agencies placing up to 70% of their off-peak and multi-channel bookings through that platform. Fully automated, no makegoods, no shortfalls. It's the future of how you would buy television. And it's here.

Michael Stephenson:

Of course, in our upfronts, we made some more announcements. We want to make it even more accessible to people. We are in the process of opening up all of our live avails to all of our agency partners. So they can see exactly what is available to be purchased, make that transaction more simple. And of course, we're giving them direct access into this system. They'll be able to come in and create and place their own campaigns directly into Nine Galaxy.

Michael Stephenson:

We spend a lot of time talking to international technology companies who are fascinated by what we've built. You asked me at the beginning of this podcast, "God, I've been here 10 years. Was it what I expected?" Well, of all of the things that we've achieved in the last 10 years, I think the development of Galaxy has got to be one of the things that I'm most proud of. Because we went into the globe, looking for a piece of technology and it didn't exist. And it doesn't exist today, so we built it. And it's great to see the other guys also taking the investment in technology seriously, because it's a big part of, I think, the future of all of our businesses.

Tim Burrowes:

And do you think in their upfronts they gave the market a fair impression of how far advanced they are with their own progress?

Michael Stephenson:

I didn't see all of it. I don't know, it feels like it's right. I'm not sure. I'm not close enough to their businesses to know exactly what they are doing. But I think what is obvious is, the future of television is automated, it's addressable and it's a total television ecosystem. So you need to have a platform that takes the laborious, heavy lifting of buying 30 second ad spots away from media buyers. That's not efficient. So you need to automate it. You need to be able to buy against your first party data asset and you need to be able to buy live, live-streaming and on demand. And Galaxy does all of those things. And of course, as I announced that our upfronts we're obviously, as we speak, building it for regional television. So we will not only have world class technology, you'll be able to buy metro, regional and BVOD all from one stack.

Tim Burrowes:

We'll come to that WIN arrangement in a moment. Just one more question on the technology first. You talked about building stuff yourself and I was really interested when you announced it. Voyager the effectively self service platform for smaller advertisers. Now, I think it was somewhat disrupted by the ransomware attack. Is it back on track now?

Michael Stephenson:

I love Voyager and our focus on the SME market. I kind of feel like it's a little startup sort of incubating alongside us. So you're right. It was impacted by the cyber attack. We're in the process of rebuilding that. So it can sit in the cloud obviously. And we're building that app today. You're able to access television, radio and BVOD through Voyager. But I think what's obvious to us as we're learning, is the SME market, of course, predominantly today use search and social. So what we are building at and will happen over time is the ability to connect with our digital audiences through Voyager. Because I suspect for small businesses, not so much medium enterprise, but for small business, their first exposure or experience with Nine will be through digital. And then it'll build through radio and ultimately end up in television. As small businesses become bigger businesses, clearly television becomes the utopia. So we're building that out for that particular reason.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, you alluded to regional just now. Now Seven in the last week or two announced the Prime takeover, which gives them a kind of nationally owned offering. You had already talked about having one sales team with WIN as Bruce Gordon's WIN has become increasingly close to Nine as an organization. He's a shareholder. In terms of the practicalities, when you saying one team, how much of one team is it? I suppose what I think about is, if you tell your sales team what to do, they've got to do it. With WIN's team are you telling them, or are you asking them?

Michael Stephenson:

I would like to think that I'm not telling anybody anything, but working collaboratively with all of the guys and girls that work in our team across the country. I guess there are a couple of stages. The first stage is what we're doing right now, which is, I would say we've aligned our teams. And so all of the WIN sales team are co-located in our offices around the country. We've invested in resource, into trade marketing, into Powered to ensure that the Nine story can be told in both metro and regional markets.

Michael Stephenson:

We are increasing collaboration between both the metro and the regional teams. And we're just working more closely together. And of course there's great efficiency and opportunity in doing that. But it'll only get you so far. So stage two, which will happen on the 1st of July, to answer your question, is that all of the WIN team will become Nine employees. So they are a part of the Nine team. And Nine will be responsible for representing Nine's assets in regional Australia into the market. So that is complete integration.

Michael Stephenson:

But even that only gets you to stage two. The real benefit for agencies and marketers is our ability to automate the buying and selling of regional television. Because if you think the metro markets are complex, then the regional markets are five times as complex. There's five times as many markets. And so we're working through that process right now. And when we have Galaxy for regional, that's a game changer. No shortfalls, no makegoods. That is our absolute point of differentiation, because nobody else in the market has that product or the ability to deliver that for clients and agencies. And it will drive incredible efficiencies for agencies and clients. But ultimately it will deliver them a better outcome.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, if we count your time at NineMSN, which is what brought you into the organization, you've been through four CEOs now, with Eddie McGuire, David Gyngell, Hugh Marks and now Mike's Sneesby. It's a slightly unfair question, but which of them would you say has so far made the greatest contribution to the state the business finds itself in right now?

Michael Stephenson:

Mike Sneesby, definitely! Mike's literally six months in, so it's super early days for him. But I think our first exposure to Mike as a CEO was of course managing our business through the cyber attack. And I don't think we could have been in safer hands through that process. So-

Tim Burrowes:

He's got an engineering background, of course.

Michael Stephenson:

Yeah, I guess that helps. But I just think the way as a leader he managed our company through what was a very difficult time. And I don't think he could have done that any better than he did. Through my time at Nine I've had different CEOs and I've probably been... I was younger or learning different things. I mean, Hugh Marks, I think, has to go down as one of the most successful CEOs of all time anywhere in media. What he achieved in his five years at Nine was quite incredible. And we have a lot to thank him for, for being the business that we are today. And he was the architect of that. But of course, Gynge was so charismatic and so content driven and just an incredible person to be around. So, I learned different things from different people, but when you think about those names we've had a pretty incredible lineup of leaders.

Tim Burrowes:

(Chuckling) And Eddie McGuire commissioned Underbelly.

Michael Stephenson:

And of course, back in our schedule next year with Underbelly: Vanishing Act. So the brand lives on

Tim Burrowes:

This is a thought that's just occurred hearing you talk about these things. There were lots of strong internal candidates for the vacancy created by Hugh going. And it was kind of in the public domain that you were one of them. If you had taken that role, would the company look any different right now to how it looks?

Michael Stephenson:

Oh gosh. That's a really big question. We've got a very clear strategy. I think it's one the things that has allowed us to be as successful as we have been over the last little while. We create great content, we distribute it across multiple platforms to ultimately engage audiences and advertisers. Within that, of course, we're accelerating towards our digital future. It's what we started five years ago. It's what Mike is accelerating. Which is exactly what I would've done if I had have been given that opportunity. But, as I said, I think Mike's doing a fantastic job and I'm very fortunate to be able to work right alongside him. And I think we're a good team.

Michael Stephenson:

We've got a great executive team here at Nine. We're good friends and we take everything very seriously, but not ourselves that seriously. So it's good fun. And we're doing that now in an ad market that's recovering really quickly. So I the next period of time, I think is going to be an interesting period, as you think about points of inflection, not just for Nine, but I think for our industry. This whole notion of total television. The notion of total audio. The role of subscription and advertising and how they coexist in a diversified business like ours. All of these things are really interesting and I think the next 12 months you're going to see all of that play out.

Tim Burrowes:

Michael Stephenson. Thank you very much for your time.

Michael Stephenson:

Thanks for having me.

Tim Burrowes:

The Unmade podcast is produced with the enthusiastic support of Abe's Audio. If you don't already, do sign up for the Unmade newsletter at unmade dot media. More soon. I'm Tim Burrowes. Toodle-pip.

Speaker 1:

Unmade.

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In this edition of the Unmade podcast, we share Chapter Two of the audio version my book Media Unmade.

The text version of the book is published by Hardie Grant and is available from bookshops and online.

Today’s chapter opens in February 2010 at a party in Sydney thrown by Nova shortly after the arrival of new boss Lachlan Murdoch.

The chapter - The New Adventures of Lachlan Murdoch - shares the story of how Murdoch finally became a media owner in his own right after leaving News Corp, through the purchase of DMG Australia.

Soon after, the company killed baby boomer network Vega and launched Classic Rock. That part didn’t go so well.

Today’s chapter also covers how Murdoch and friend James Packer bought into Ten, which was riding high on the Masterchef phenomenon, and quickly fired CEO Grant Blackley after a bizarre boat trip.

It details the explosive court case after Murdoch poached Warburton from Seven, in which it emerged that David Leckie had labelled the executive as “Mr Ambitious”.

The next chapter of Media Unmade will appear in this podcast feed in a week’s time. The Unmade podcast is produced by North West Tasmania’s finest audio production company, Abe’s Audio.

Some chapters of the audio edition of Media Unmade will be for paying subscribers only.

On Monday, I’ll be sharing my interview with Nine’s chief sales officer Michael Stephenson ahead of this week’s company annual general meeting. It will go live on Monday morning while I’m somewhere over the Middle East as I relocate to the UK through until February.

Have a great weekend.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

Contacts:

Send press releases to newsdesk@unmade.media

Send comments to letters@unmade.media

Contact me at tim@unmade.media

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Welcome to Friday’s edition of Unmade.

I was planning for this to be a quick intro, as people listening to the first chapter of my book Media Unmade are going to see these words in their audio app, if that’s how they choose to listen.

But, as Harold Macmillan apparently said: “Events, my dear boy, events…”

So I’ll get to the contents of the first chapter shortly.

First four things from the last few hours:

Facebook’s new name is Meta

A couple of hours ago Facebook boss Mark Zuckerberg announced the parent brand of Facebook will now be Meta. (Not Horizon, as I speculated a few days ago. Horizon Home will be its metaverse brand).

The company is also not (yet, anyhow) changing its corporate structure to become a holding company in the style of Google’s parent Alphabet. But it will report its financials in two segments “family of apps”, and “reality labs”. Facebook will be one of those apps.

The animated version of the new logo rotates between an infinity symbol and an M

(Until this email lands in my inbox, I’ve no idea by the way, whether Substack’s newsletter technology is capable of displaying the gif above, or whether you’ll need to go online to see what I’m talking about.)

The logo reminds me of the ABC’s brand. There’s more on how they developed the brand on the Facebook design blog. (TIL: Facebook has a design blog.)

Do tell me what you think of it, at letters@unmade.media or via the comment button.

Something’s going on at Prime Media

Prime Media put out an unexpected announcement yesterday afternoon. Chairman Ian McGill is gone after just ten months as a director and just eight months as chair. In a corporate world where doing only a single term of three or four years is seen as bad form, the sudden exit suggests more drama in the board room.

You’ll probably recall that Prime has about a year-and-a-half left on its affiliate agreement with Seven. That’s the same amount of time until Ten and Southern Cross Austereo’s own affiliate arrangement expires.

There are also ownership intrigues. Antony Catalano and Alex Waislitz have been moving up the share register while Bruce Gordon gradually sells down. And Seven West Media took a 15 per cent stake when Catalano and Gordon blocked the Seven-Prime merger.

I understand there have been ructions between the owners and the board members in recent weeks. There may even have been threats to spill the board if they did not resume paying a dividend. They did resume paying a dividend.

My former Mumbrella colleague Zoe Samios, who now writes on media for The Age and the SMH, is usually the best informed journo on the activities of the Cat. In the coming days, I’ll be reading her coverage of the ructions with interest.

HT&E is ready to start making deals

Less than an hour ago Here, There & Everywhere, the parent company of the Australian Radio Network, dropped a significant announcement on the ASX. The company has finally settled its dispute with the Australian Tax Office over the sale of its New Zealand newspaper assets. The bill will be $71m, which is more than the company wanted to pay, and less than the $195m the tax office was seeking.

The company had already deposited $51m with the ATO. The other $20m will not be a problem to find. In its half year results back in August, HT&E said it had net cash of $122m.

That means that HT&E must now choose whether to spend its war chest, or return the money to its shareholders. Deal making is afoot.

Radio Today Tonight, revived?

I previously wrote about the sale of Radio Today to Radioinfo and bemoaned the death of its must-listen weekly podcast featuring soon-to-be ex-owner Jake Challenor and my former Mumbrella colleague Vivienne Kelly.

Maybe it won’t quite be the end after all. A trailer reached my ears last night, for a new podcast called That’s Entertainment.

"From the accompanying blurb: “From the duo that brought you Radio Today Tonight comes a brand new show. Go behind the curtain of Australia’s billion-dollar entertainment industry with a podcast dedicated to the business of media and pop culture, hosted by Vivienne Kelly and Jake Challenor. Launching November 12th, 2021. That’s Entertainment! comes to you each Friday - unfiltered, unedited and uncut - mixing the biggest news of the week with hot takes, insider scoops, and a discussion of all the personalities, politics and pressures from within the bubble.”

That’s a subtle change in the pecking order. Last time round, it was “with Jake and Viv”. This time the names are the other way round.

I understand former Nova executive Jay Walkerden’s Podshape is involved in the project.

Chapter One… in my own words

Which finally brings me onto the main point of today’s email - the first chapter of the audio version of my book Media Unmade.

One of the many things I learned in the process of publishing Media Unmade is that not every book gets an audio edition - the market is smaller, and there are significant production costs involved.

In the case of Media Unmade, which tightly focuses on the Australian media industry, the commercial economics of recording an audio version did not stack up, as it would not be of much wider interest for international audiences.

But I kept being asked whether there would be an audio edition, and as my motivations for doing the book were never commercial, it felt like unfinished business not to find a way. Until an audio version existed, I’d feel like I’d not given the book every chance to succeed.

So instead, I developed a daily routine of finding a couple of hours a day to record at home.

I’d then upload each chapter to Tasmanian audio company Abe’s Audio, whose engineers would work production magic, snipping out my many stumbles and cutting out the various disturbances that come with a home recording. (Pro tip: If you need cost effective audio work, use a Tasmanian audio company.)

On top of launching this newsletter, the recording process has been a bit of a marathon.

In the opening instalment today comes the prologue - featuring Antony Catalano, as it happens, enjoying cocktails in Vegas, and Greg Hywood. It also includes my introduction, when I set the scene for the scope of the book, and then the opening chapter.

The first scene of the chapter is based on this video I shot while trespassing in a basement at Sydney University back in 2010.

But the thrust of the opening chapter is around the miserable situation Fairfax Media found itself in just over a decade ago as digital disruption finally caught up, and Hywood was forced to cut 1,900 jobs. It also features the story of the audacious way that Catalano launched The Weekly Review in Melbourne, setting him on a path to becoming Australia’s last media mogul.

For the next 26 weeks, I’ll be uploading a chapter each Friday. You’ll be able to listen to them via the player at the top of this newsletter, or by adding the feed to your own podcast player. (That’s easier than it sounds - follow the instructions next to the player.)

Some chapters will be available only to paying subscribers. The price of that goes up tomorrow, so your last opportunity to lock in Unmade’s heavily discounted launch price of $144 per year is via this button, today.

Recording the book has been a labour of love. If you like it, you can support it in a couple of ways. First, by buying the text edition. It’s published by Hardie Grant and is available in book stores and online. And second, by passing this email to anybody who might be interested in hearing it.

Time for me to let you get on with your day.

Please do drop me a line to letters@unmade.media, or via the ugly brown comment button.

Have a great weekend.

Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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Welcome to Unmade’s second podcast edition.

Today saw ViacomCBS share its plans for 2022, across Ten, Paramount Plus and the rest of its broadcast channels. There are several new formats, a big new soccer rights acquisition and new advertising formats.

The company’s two local executive vice presidents, Bevereley McGarvey, and Jarrod Villani, both joined me for the converation. As well as talking about the slate, I asked Villani asked whether Ten might be open to acquiring either Prime or Southern Cross Austereo’s TV operation to round out its national offering.

I’ll be back with more analysis in tomorrow morning’s Unmade newsletter when I offer my own thoughts on how Ten’s plans stack up.

A transcript of the podcast appears below.

Transcript

Tim Burrowes:

Welcome to the Unmade Podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. This week Ten became the third of Australia's big three TV networks to unveil its plans for 2020. There's a significant investment in new formats. Some new commercial opportunities and a sports rights announcement too. Ten is part of ViacomCBS, and I'm delighted to say that the company's two bosses in Australia and New Zealand, Executive Vice Presidents, Bevereley McGarvey, and Jarrod Villani join me now.

Beverley McGarvey:

Hi Tim. Thanks for having us.

Jarrod Villani:

Thanks very much Tim.

Tim Burrowes:

So we'll come to the content in a moment and there is a lot to cover, but first I'm going to invite you to jump in, Jarrod. A lot of Unmade's audience comes from the media agency and marketing world so we'll talk about the commercial stuff right upfront. A couple of the new announcements for next year, Happy Hour, which is something that's going to be available on Tenplay, which effectively gives the audience an hour of ad free viewing, thanks to a sponsor, and dynamic e-trading placement. So let's talk about those two things to start off with.

Jarrod Villani:

Great, Tim, and thanks very much for having us. So we're really excited about the Happy Hour announcement. We think it gives great brand exclusivity to advertisers in a way that really cares for the viewer. We see that with the ongoing developments of paid streaming services, that viewers love that uninterrupted viewing experience. So we thought that we would trial Happy Hour to see what both the viewer resposne to it was, and indeed the advertisers. And it gives that brand exclusivity to advertisers, which is almost unobtainable anywhere else. So we think it provides both a great opportunity for viewers to experience something different on an ad supported platform-

Tim Burrowes:

... And the way I works, I take it, is that at the front of the hour, there's a message from the sponsor who gets credit for the experience they're about to have?

Jarrod Villani:

That's right, as well as overlays and other ways in which we can work in the messaging about that particular sponsor throughout that hour, without being as invasive as a 60 or 90 second ad pod.

Tim Burrowes:

And how do you price that for the sponsor?

Jarrod Villani:

Well, I think we'll continue to work through that with the agency, as we get into the detail of that, I think it's a new area. It's something that clearly will attract a premium because you do have that exclusive benefit over the course of the period. So we'll continue to work and Rod will work through that with the agencies-

Tim Burrowes:

... This is Rod Prosser who leads the sales?

Jarrod Villani:

Indeed, yes.

Tim Burrowes:

And tell me about the dynamic e-trading placement.

Jarrod Villani:

Well, I think it's all about offering that dynamic nature of the way in which agencies want to buy advertising space and indeed the ability to be more nimble as you see fluctuations in particularly in the BVOD space. So we think that... And as you can see across many organisations, the ability to adapt to pricing demands and indeed, if you have an advertiser who wants to adjust images or offers with short notice, it gives you that ability to do that.

Tim Burrowes:

So how does this stack up against… And this, this is obviously where everybody tends to use sort of slightly different terminologies. One of the things we've seen over the last few weeks is Nine and then Seven come to the market, talking about what they're now able to offer with... not trading, so much as automated buying, because humans are still having to negotiate the price, how does it stack up against that?

Jarrod Villani:

Well, this is all about, and I think this is a collaboration between us and an agency world, which is about what is it that works best for them? So we think about our products in an agency led environment because they're the ones... There's no good us designing something that we think is wonderful and whiz bang, and provides everything that we need. But of course it still requires a significant amount of manual work around from an agency perspective. So we think that our products are connected with the way in which agencies want to buy. I can't comment on that of other platforms, but Rod Prosser and the team to do a lot of work in understanding what eases the friction from the buyer's perspective and how we continue to reshape and model our platforms to make that an ease of trade.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, let's get into some of the formats. So Bev it really strikes me that... I think it's fair to say that of the three networks, TYen is investing the far the most this year in new formats. And they tend to be formats, which have at least been already tried in the US, or UK. So let's talk through a few of those. One of the ones that most intrigues me is The Bridge.

Beverley McGarvey:

Well, The Bridge is really interesting. It's actually for Paramount Plus and what we're interested in is having some high-end constructed reality on a streaming service. And as you know, lots of the other global streaming services have had a lot of success with high-end premium non-scripted content, as well as the premium scripted. So we just want to make sure that our local service is offering both scripted and non-scripted and The Bridge is intriguing and as you know, Australians love that non-scripted content and The Bridge is intriguing because it's quite authentic. The format beats that free to air audiences enjoy with things like Master Chef and Survivor, where there're tribal councils and mystery boxes and all that sort of thing. The Bridge is slightly more organic than that, you're kind of thrown in at the beginning with an end game, here's a group of people, here's a giant bucket of cash.

Can you get it? And if you do get it, how do you split it? And it's really a social experiment in that how do those people work together and how do they split the money at the end? That's what's really intriguing because actions that you might take in Day Two will affect the outcome and day 10, so it's quite immersive. We will most likely drop it as a binge experience, and it's a much shorter run than the free to air and big constructed reality formats. And also we're shooting in Tasmania and as you know, not, not a great deal of content is shot in Tasmania and it's beautiful. And I think just having that different geographical look we see lots of beaches on Australian TV, we see lots of the Outback and beautiful red dirt. So I think just seeing that really interesting green environment. We have a bit of jungle in I'm a Celebrity, but I think it will look really different and I think that's really important. So we're excited about that.

Tim Burrowes:

With that one, as I was saying is it's a format which has already gone to air in the UK. I've not had time to view much beyond a few trailers, but I know reading one review, it made the point that casting is really important, which obviously always is for these things. I know one of the points made in at least one of the reviews in the U.K was they were quite an agreeable group of people. And perhaps as a result, it lacked some of that tension you sometimes see, but equally you don't just want, I know they won't be called a tribe, but a tribe of dickheads. So how are you coming at the casting question for something like The Bridge?

Beverley McGarvey:

The casting on any of those shows is absolutely critical and really what you're looking for is a mix of people that reflect an environment that you might actually find yourself in that you do find some people who are agreeable and some people that might add a bit more tension to proceedings. And also you want some surprises. So it's been very successful in both the U.K on the U.S and for example, in one of those series, they had someone who actually knew how to build a bridge who was actually a bridge builder in the army. But he was a gentle character and the others didn't quite ever find that out about him because they didn't ask him enough questions, and that's fascinating because they actually had an expert in their midst and didn't use it. So you're also looking for those surprising elements and I think the company that are making it, they cast Survivor, they cast MasterChef.

They really know what they're doing. The great thing about Australian characters is that Australians are, we get phenomenal casting on some of our big shows. People really put their hand up for this sort of thing. So I think Australians really like to challenge themselves and they really enjoy this sort of content. So I think the casting will be, as it often is with us, you almost have too much choice. And the hard thing is just whittling it down to a group of people that make, as if you're casting a drama, you get a really great mix that make it a compelling watch.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, let's talk about a couple of other formats, which are quite well known in other markets. Would I Lie To You?, now again, this is one where quite a well-known cast in the U.K, and of course it's already available on Australian television. So I guess one of the daunting things for your cast, and I don't think you've said yet, who it'll be, is there's going to be a point of comparison for them?

Beverley McGarvey:

Absolutely, so I will tell you who it's going to be. So the point of comparison is something that we do think about, but I think that the point of comparison does two things. It makes you think, well, this is what works in the U.K and how do you take that and apply it to Australian audience, and what makes Australian audiences enjoy things differently? So we are going with Chrissy Swan in the hosting chair and Chrissy is an incredibly generous performer, and she's warm and funny. The other wonderful thing about Chrissy is that she gives other people space to be funny. And that's incredibly important in the show because there will be six big characters sitting in those other six chairs every week. And you need somebody who can not only wrangle that, but allow each person to find the flow and be themselves.

The two team captains will be Chris Taylor from The Chaser, who as you know, is an incredibly smart, witty, fast comedian. And we need that, we need somebody who can be that fast. And then the other team captain will be Frank Woodley, also smart, funny man, but a very physical comedian, so very different. And we just think that balance of those three characters will be a really great foundation for the show. And then of course, every week you have four guests. Now, those four guests aren't necessarily always going to be comedians, although they often will be, they will be well-known Australians who are good at kind of telling a tall tale.

So we think it's a really exciting show that it allows us to cast from a very broad group of people. And it won't be the same people that you used to see everywhere else, we need to get different people in those chairs. So we're really excited about that. A panel comedy, when it's done well, tends to go very well for us. I think there's an appetite for it and particularly the environment we find ourselves in at the minute, I think people really will embrace something funny.

Tim Burrowes:

And speaking of panel comedy, The Cheap Seats and Have You Been Paying Attention, are both coming back?

Beverley McGarvey:

Absolutely, they are both coming back and HYPBA, it’s been on for a really long time now, that team do a phenomenal job, they are consistently funny, week in, week out in every segment. They're great at using established talent at bringing through new talent and just bringing through that new talent has really... It’s what's led to The Cheap Seats. So The Cheap Seats, obviously it's a slightly younger cast, probably a slightly different pace, if you watch that show, they are fast. They're kind of in their mid twenties, those guys, and they just rip through the material, which is really interesting. And we have a really good core audience for that show and it took us a bit of time to build Hyper, like Cheap Seats has got a broader following in a much faster time frame. So we're really excited about that and those shows worked really well in a complimentary fashion. They both tend to start around that kind of Q2. So we just wanted something funny at the top of the year, which is why we've put, Would I Lie To You? in at the very front.

Tim Burrowes:

And I'll come on to some more new content in a moment. Jarrod, let me come back to you in a moment because it strikes me that as we're chatting - and although our audience can't, I can see you both. So on the left though, as I look, I've got Jarrod, on the right I've got Bev. Bev's job is to spend the money and Jarrod's job is to find it. So I'm guessing it's a bigger content budget this year. I'm wondering if that is indeed the case and if so, where you're finding the money from?

Jarrod Villani:

Well, I think if you, if you look at the way in which our organisation has evolved over the last 18 months, we're certainly spending more on content, there is no doubt about that. For the first time in 2022, we'll have all of our brands under one roof, obviously Network 10 and Tenplay, Nickelodeon, MTV, Nick Jr. Paramount Plus, and the enormous investments that we're making in that area. And what it does allow us to do is to look at the way in which our content lives across platforms and look at the levels of investment that we make and the way in which that can complement all of our services and the way in which we can cross promote that and engage with viewers in different ways on each of those platforms.

And indeed, hopefully drive viewers across those platforms as well, which presents wonderful opportunities, obviously for our viewers, but also for advertisers as well. We think that if you have, if you have integration into one of our free to air programs and that, that also shows on Paramount Plus at some point in the future, then you will be tapping into a broader and additional audience also, without necessarily having to pay twice for that opportunity. So we think it presents great value to advertisers as well, but that has allowed us to invest even more strongly than what we have in the past, across our content slate.

Tim Burrowes:

Let's talk a bit more about that content. Bev a format which we've previously seen on screen, but at another network, over at Seven, was First Dates. So what is it you like about that format and what is it that you see in that format that Seven presumably didn't from the fact they let it go?

Beverley McGarvey:

I think these days shows have moved around a little bit and there's always a moment in time thing with certain formats. We've always loved First Dates. What I love about First Dates and what I think our audience will love about First Dates is the authenticity and humour that you find in a show like Gogglebox. These are real Australians having an experience that we're kind of voyeuristically watching. And I think it's sweet and it's different than the big dating shows. It's different than the Bachelor and The Masked (Singer) and those big shows, which have a place and are incredibly important, but this is very different.

It is, as I say, more in that Gogglebox, Travel Guide space, they're regular people, they're people that you see in Coles and Woolies, they're those type of people. And I think those authentic characters are something that we don't have a great deal of, we tend to have the bigger constructor reality shows and people who apply for those shows are big personalities. These are more everyday Australians and I think there's room for that on our schedule. And I think our audience will really embrace it. And it's one hour, once a week, it's kind of down the back of the week and we think it will do a really good job in attracting an audience that will come to it for the humour and the sweetness, as opposed to the spectacle that we often offer on a Sunday, Monday, it's just about getting a bit of balance in the slate.

Tim Burrowes:

And a key thing, I suppose, for First Dates is the narrator voice. Have you made a decision on that yet?

Beverley McGarvey:

No, we haven't gotten that far yet. We're actually, we're casting at the minute and it will be for Q1. So we're just looking at those sorts of things right now, but it's a really good point, it's kind of critical.

Tim Burrowes:

Let's talk about another one, which feels like a potentially, I guess, an expensive one because it takes place out in the world, Hunted.

Beverley McGarvey:

So Hunted is really interesting, I think from an audience point of view, it's really exciting. And also from an industry professional point of view, it's really exciting. So Hunted is kind of, it's a big constructed reality show. And the interesting thing for us is it's an urban city scape and you know, we've talked about this, we do jungles, we do out in the Outback we do lots of other things, but in terms of shooting in an urban cityscape, it tends to be the domain of Australian drama that does that. So Hunted will be shot in Melbourne, hopefully in a bustling busy city. And the idea is you start with a group of people, they literally lose their phones, lose their credit cards, lose their money and it is 3, 2, 1 go. And basically a team of people chase you in what I ambitiously say, a Bourne Identity style and the last person caught basically wins money, it's literally, can you evade capture?

So where the production works is there's a production team with the hunted and there's a production team with the hunters, and they don't overlap so that the production is authentic in terms of the production not knowing what's going on. And then there's a central team that are watching both. And they can get out of the city a little bit, it's been very successful all over Europe, in the U.K and in markets like Italy. And it's a really exciting, fast paced format and again, attracts a very different type of cast. Australians, as I said are really, they're competitive and I think we're casting it at the minute and then it will get a great cast and also a different looking show and a different dynamic. And also a lot of constructed reality shows are in a bubbled environment so you're in the Bachelor mansion, you're in the MasterChef kitchen, this is out in the world, so it feels a bit different to some of our other shows. So we're really excited about that.

Tim Burrowes:

And while we're talking about the big formats, Survivor comes back again. Now one of the great things for me about Paramount launching as a service here was having availability of all the U.S Survivor episodes. So I haven't yet worked my way through all 40 seasons, so I don't know if this is based on a U.S season gone by, but there's a twist this year?

Beverley McGarvey:

It absolutely is based on a U.S Season gone by. And what we tend to do is we look at some of the thematic Survivor versions that play in other markets, and then kind of adapt them for Australia so that it really works for us like Champions versus Contenders was quite original to Australia, although it was loosely based on something else. So what we're doing is Blood versus Water and effectively what that means is you play with someone you love for a certain amount of time.

And Survivor's really interesting because at the end you are the sole survivor. So adding the dynamic of... Some people are very ruthless in Survivor, which we love. If your mother is with you, the question is, is blood thicker than water? So we're filming at the minute. It's really, really interesting. That dynamic really brings out interesting character traits in people. And Survivor really is... Survivor fans are super committed to it and they love those extra layers of complexity and interest. So it's a really interesting theme and we've also got fantastic casting. Most of the cast are new, we do have some favourites coming back, but they're not playing alone, they're playing with a sister or a mother. So again, it's not like... You've seen them before, but you're seeing them in a different way now cause everybody behaves differently when their mother’s around, I think, so it's a really good theme this year.

Tim Burrowes:

And Survivor obviously has become a really reliable partner schedule now, would you do two series in a year, would you contemplate that?

Beverley McGarvey:

We have done in the past. We actually nearly did two cycles last year, but COVID kind of scuppered that idea. It's an incredible investment, a show like Survivor and it's very successful. I think probably the audience appetite for it is maintained when we do one cycle a year, if there was ever a reason to do a second one, we would never say never. We also do slightly more hours than some of the international versions. So our audience already get a decent amount of Survivor. So possibly one day, certainly not next year.

Tim Burrowes:

Jarrod, where are we now, in October, three months or so into is the switch of affiliations from the previous connection with WIN Corporation over to Southern Cross Austereo. How has that gone so far? Because I guess you were pretty much thrown in the deep end to arrive and then make that negotiation nearly straight away?

Jarrod Villani:

It’s going well, we're very fortunate as we were with WIN, to have terrific partners and we still have a very substantial relationship with WIN in Northern New South Wales. So that continues to go very well and Southern Cross in most other major markets. And of course, as the affiliate landscape works in Australia, a smattering of other in smaller markets. So we're very fortunate, it's going quite well with Southern Cross. We have really strong engagement with them. Their feedback from their clients has been really strong about the performance of the content and the engagement from advertisers. So we're really happy with the way in which that has played out. And indeed, we're very happy with the way in which our relationship continues to work with WIN in certain markets also.

Tim Burrowes:

And obviously the new arrangement was only a two-year deal, which is quite short for affiliate arrangements. Was that your preference, or would you have preferred a longer arrangement?

Jarrod Villani:

We're in a world where it's moving quite fast at the moment. And we had a really great conversation with Southern Cross about what our desires were, and it was a mutual agreement between the parties that we would enter into a two year agreement and see where the world was in a couple of years’ time. So we're both very comfortable with that, and we don't really think it makes any difference in terms of the continuity of services or indeed our relationship.

Tim Burrowes:

And as you say, in a little bit under two years’ time, both this arrangement, but also Prime’s arrangement with Seven comes up. Have you had any conversations with Prime yet?

Jarrod Villani:

Well, other than the ones that, as I say in certain markets, that we do engage with them on already, as a joint venture partner in some of those, but look, I think that we'll cross all those bridges when we come to them in a couple of years’ time.

Tim Burrowes:

And before we go back to the content, again, a final question on the affiliate arrangement. We thought a while back that Seven and Prime was going to be, were going to come together and be the first national offering. Is there any further appetites for investment for you to pick up, and I guess it would probably be Prime, but it might be Southern Cross Austereo. Is there a way the numbers would actually stack up to become a national offering do you think?

Jarrod Villani:

That has to work for both parties, obviously. So I think that like all investment activity, whether you're talking about ViacomCBS, or seven or Nine or whoever you might be talking about at any point in time, we work through the process of saying, does this make sense? Does this work for both parties? And there can only ever be an agreement if it does work for both parties. So, I view it like all commercial agreements. You never say never, you see what unfolds, you see what can work for each of the parties and you make those decisions as you go.

Tim Burrowes:

So it sounds like at least sort of with ViacomCBS internationally, it's not as if they've said rule out spending money on that sort of potential acquisition. If you can make it stack up, then they might back you on that case?

Jarrod Villani:

We have terrific support, full-stop, internationally for our investments in Australia, be they in content or further acquisitions or whatever it might be. So we've got really strong engagement with our international colleagues and it is set us up in a really good place in Australia and New Zealand.

Tim Burrowes:

Well, let's talk a bit about sport, which we haven't yet today. Bev, my accent gives me away as a person from the U.K where the FA Cup is a big deal. So this is the... I suppose you could think of it as a, the main league is the EPL in the U.K, and then the FA cup is the knockout format. And they're both pretty much as meaningful as each other, really in terms of U.K sport. So you're now going to have some rights to show the FA cup, how are you going to make that work within the schedule?

Beverley McGarvey:

So the FA Cup will... A lot of the games will, all of the games will be on Paramount Plus, and then some of the games will play on the linear services, but really we're just wanting to round out our football offering. So as you know we have the FA with Socceroos, Matildas and the A-Leagues. So we were really just looking for other events to kind of round that out. And as you say, it is such a big deal in the U.K, there's a lot of expats here.

And even if you're not from that part of the world, there's a lot of players that you'd know because a lot of big names play, in the British Leagues, so you know who they are. So we're really excited about that, and it really just enhances our football offering for fans. And it will be mainly on Paramount Plus, but some of it will sit on the linear services, so that's how we see it working really and we're pretty excited about it though. Because as you say it’s a knockout and also in a knockout interesting things can happen, you never really know where it's going to end. So I think that keeps it really exciting right to the end of the season.

Tim Burrowes:

And you say, you've got all of the games. So obviously you... With the knockout thing, it starts off with a lot of games per round. Then it presumably hits that point where you might have sort of eight or four games per round going on. So you'll presumably actually be streaming multiple games at the same time?

Beverley McGarvey:

Yeah, we do have the capacity to do that and we will be streaming multiple games at the same time across the board, that also sometimes happens with the local leagues as well. So that's kind of the beauty of having, as Jarrod has mentioned, just having a full suite of distribution mechanisms so that we can do multiple things at the same time. I think the interesting thing is just about making it clear about what's on when and what we have where and making the curation easy for the audience. So we have the Matildas on Ten this Saturday night and we've a couple of like FA games. And then we move into the APL, which will be exclusive mainly on Paramount Plus coming into November.

Tim Burrowes:

Now Jarrod one of the tap dances of a commercial network, particularly with streaming is the viewers are already paying for the products so they don't necessarily want to see much advertising at all, but equally this is a commercial world and one of the ways that pays for the content is the ads. How do you think about that when it comes to the advertising around football or soccer, I suppose we should call it in here in Australia?

Jarrod Villani:

Yeah. Tim, there's obviously lots of different models playing out across the world at the moment, in relation to our football, which will be available on Paramount Plus, it will be supported by a light ad load. We think it gives great continuity to advertisers across both the free to air product and the Paramount Plus product to ensure that if you are part of football in this country, that you are part of the viewer experience also, and people really can see that brand association, irrespective of which platform. Now we are going to be very conscious of the load that exists on Paramount Plus, but we think we can do that in a respectful and non-intrusive manner.

Tim Burrowes:

And sticking with Paramount Plus, a couple of other formats - Couples Therapy and the return of Five Bedrooms?

Beverley McGarvey:

Yeah. So Five Bedrooms has been phenomenally successful for Paramount Plus and for Ten. So series three will drop very, very, very early next year, which we're really excited about, we're filming at the minute. It's a really strong series, really good writing, fantastic talent. And then we have a show called Couples Therapy and Couples Therapy will be the first local non-scripted content to drop on the service. And again, we're making it at the minute. It plays on HBO Max in the U.S and it's a very different type of show. It is not a show that you would see sitting on Linear. It's a very no producer intervention type show. So you see two people talking to your therapist about their relationship and there are no format beats. There is no, at the end of the series, two people are going to stay together. And two people are going to split up. You watch the kind of how their relationship grows or doesn't across the period of their conversations with the therapist.

And at the end of the series, you find out where they are at that moment in time. It's not like a hard closed ending. It's really interesting conversations and the way the show works. If you're in the show as one of the couples, you don't see producers, you don't see camera men, you only see your therapist, it's kind of shot with two-way mirrors etc, so you're really honest. So I think it's a really, and again, it's been very successful in other markets because I think people are curious and they like to see what's happening in other people's lives. So we're really excited to see how that goes and it's one of those things that had we not had Paramount Plus we wouldn't be able to do that type of show because it will appeal to a very bespoke market. So just having that extra platform gives us more flexibility in our commissioning and kind of gives us more scale in our buying.

Tim Burrowes:

So Jarrod, this will be your first upfronts since joining Ten, I found myself thinking of James Warburton's return to Seven, where he used his first upfronts to tell his audience that what had come before was not good enough. Now I'm not going to ask you to do that, but I do wonder if you could wave a magic wand and change just one decision by any predecessor over the last 15 years, what would it be?

Jarrod Villani:

Tim I think that whenever we're reflecting on any decision made in business, in life, unless you know, all of the factors at that point in time, that those people have to consider at that point in time, you knew the dynamics of what was playing out the condition of a balance sheet or P and L or what was the strategic objectives at that point in time, then you can never look back. And sometimes even on your own decisions and say whether they are good or bad ones.

And I think that's true of this situation, and Bev and I've spent... We've been lucky enough to work together on and off over the last four or five years, we've got a great working relationship. And we're very much about looking forward and about the organisation, not just the network, it's much bigger than that. The networks are a very important part of what we do, but the organisation as a whole and the way in which we build out ViacomCBS in Australia, and the position that we'll take in the market, we're really excited about making those decisions together and ensuring that we get those right based on the information that we have to hand at any given point in time.

Tim Burrowes:

Do you ever look back there and think ‘Oh, I wonder how things would be if Lachlan Murdoch had fought a bit harder to keep some AFL’ for instance?

Jarrod Villani:

Perhaps, but you're probably best asking Lachlan that.

Tim Burrowes:

Hey, it might just be worth painting a bit of a picture. And this might be one of the final questions of how the... I'm particularly interested for Ten, how the schedule will sort of unfold over the coming year. Where you actually see yourself placing the main shows throughout 2022.

Beverley McGarvey:

Well, I think for many years now, we've been very transparent about what our schedule looks like and that we want it to be consistent. So we're quite comfortable to talk about what the year looks like. It's very, very set for the first half, we do I'm A Celebrity on January 3. We talk about that quite publicly and tend to put January 3 on billboards all over the country and then we go into Survivor. We didn't have Survivor in Q1 this year only because we couldn't get it made in time because of the lockdown situation last year but luckily this year we've managed to fix that. So we go I'm A Celebrity, Survivor, some other enhancements in Q1, like First Dates and Would I Lie To You? as we've talked about and then we go into MasterChef and really that takes us through the first half of the year.

And we're very happy to be open about that. We think the market needs to know that we have a consistent schedule, what the content is, what the integration opportunities are. And then in the back half of the year, we tend to have things like Bachelor and some other big kind of more stunty shows, Hunted will play on that second half. So we tend to be quite open about it because we think it works for us to be upfront about what we're doing. And I think these days, your clients really want to know in advance. You can't kind of be hiding things and stuffing around and you need to be quite honest about where your shows are going to land. I think it works. It's better for our sales team to have that visibility

Tim Burrowes:

Well, Upfronts is always a busy week. So I will let you both go Beverly McGarvey and Jarrod Villani. Thank you very much.

Beverley McGarvey:

Thank you so much.

Jarrod Villani:

Thanks so much for having us Tim. Thank you

Tim Burrowes:

The Unmade Podcast is produced with the enthusiastic support of Abe's Audio, more soon. I'm Tim Burrowes.

Toodle pip.

This is a public episode. If you’d like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.unmade.media/subscribe

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The Unmade podcast

Welcome to the first edition of the Unmade podcast.

Today saw Seven’s 2022 Upfronts.

The company was second into the market this year - Nine went first, last month, and Ten rounds things off next week.

If I’ve done the technical things right, you’ll be able to listen this podcast on your favourite apps as well as in the player above. But, like all new things on Unmade, bear with me if I get it wrong the first time.

I’ll be following up on the podcast with my own analysis in a seperate post at the usual time tomorrow morning.

This edition of the Unmade podcast is free. In the future, some will be available only to paying subscribers. Until the end of this month, you sign up to Unmade for the discounted annual price of just $144 per year. That price will never be as competitive again.

(And a reminder: If you do come back later looking for that discount, you’ll need to reopen this email and click on the special offer button above to access the discounted price.)

My thanks to the team at Abe’s Audio for production on today’s edition.

For your convenience, you’ll find a transcript of the whole conversation below.

Transcript

Tim Burrowes: Welcome to the first edition of The Unmade Podcast. I'm Tim Burrowes. Seven has just wrapped up its presentation for its 2022 Upfronts. New tech capabilities, the Commonwealth Games, and some familiar tent poll shows are among the headlines. Joining me as Unmade's first guests, first of all, the man with maybe the longest job title in the media, Kurt Burnette, chief revenue officer, director of Olympic Paralympic, and Commonwealth Games, organisational strategy and sales/marketing, and Natalie Harvey network sales director for Seven West Media. Welcome, both of you.

Kurt Burnette: Thanks, Tim. Well, what an honour to be on the first, I don't know where you got that title from, but I like it.

Tim Burrowes Well, certainly that's what LinkedIn accuses you of Kurt, and Natalie, welcome to you as well.

Natalie Harvey: Hello Tim. Thanks for having me and Kurt

Tim Burrowes Let's get straight into it. One of the interesting things about the upfronts this year, and it's probably been a story for all of the networks, or certainly, Nine, which has already come along, and now yourselves, so much this year is about the technology and the trading. So in your case, this is Code 7 Plus along, with the tie-in with Salesforce. So let's start with what practical difference that's going to make for media buyers?

Kurt Burnette: Audience is our metric or our driver of success, and that's delivered by great content, of course. I mean, it does start in pretty much in there, but of course, when it comes to ensuring that that audience is traded in the most effective and efficient way, that's what everyone's now trying to crack, or has been over the last few years. So technology does play a part in that, as it does in all industries now. So technology is an important part of that, and it's certainly a big part of Seven's future. So Code 7 has been with us for a few years now, and that's effectively an automated guaranteed audience buy, which means that you brief in what you want from audience and that gets delivered.

And it's effectively one touch from the customer being the agency on behalf of the client. Code 7 Plus effectively is a whole new technology platform underpinning that solution, which brings in a new digital order management platform. It links in a CRM, Salesforce CRM, which is quite clearly the leader in the world on this, and the digital order management platform that we're adding to that is Salesforce's new business media cloud, which is the first in Australia.

So with some of these vendors, not all of them, but some of the linkage is really important. And that's what Salesforce brings to this particular equation, along with some other very well-known vendors to bring the solution alive. So what that does quite simply is makes the transaction faster and more effective across broadcast BVOD and even our short form, in our case 7news.com.au and the short form into the West Australian.

The idea being is how we can tie that together as an audience trade for our customers to get to the audience faster and quicker, transact quicker and get deeper using data segments. So integrated into that platform will be VOZ and also REDiQ, which is our data management platform.

So all of the data points come together. So all of that, you have to have your content, right? That's the first and foremost point, you must have that in a good place across broadcast and digital, which we do on Seven and 7plus, leading platform across both. And this technology brings it together. So when our customers are transacting with us, you can get them a far more effective way of trading

Tim Burrowes: Let's just clarify one point on that with Salesforce, then. Is one of the things that this Salesforce arrangement will allow is that clients will be able to bring their first-party data to the party?

Kurt Burnette: Well, the way that we are building 7 Red IQ is actually the integrator of that, where we can bring in third-party data sets into there. So that is the entry point of which then comes into Code 7 Plus. So yes, is the answer. It's just the way that it comes through.

Tim Burrowes: And then obviously this is the arrangement with Salesforce, as you say, one of the major tech stacks out there, possibly the major tech stack. Not far out the ballpark, though, is Adobe. How do you think about Adobe?

Kurt Burnette: Well, we use Adobe in Red IQ as part of our partners. So they are an enabler. Adobe's part of that equation, as is a number of other data partners that can enable that connection to happen. Our mantra is plug and play your way.

And what that means is that, however, you wish to engage with Seven West Media, that we have that solution to do so. And if you're an Adobe partner, then that's what we'll use to bring you into our environment. That's a very clear mantra when we started with the build on this was to make sure that we could engage with those however, they want to engage with. The idea that we build it and they will come. I don't, I'm sure most would agree that those days are gone. You can't just say, this is the way you have to do it. Now you've got to sort of, yeah, play into the various options that others have.

Tim Burrowes: And as I say, this seems to have been one of those years where this is a really major focus. Now, one of the things that Nine announced with their upfronts was, they would enable media agencies and clients to effectively book everything apart from main channel prime time via their version, which is Galaxy. I think what you were saying just now about being able to automate that booking is that you are able to do the same thing with Code Seven as well. Am I understanding that right?

Kurt Burnette: Yeah, that's correct. I mean, I think there's been a lot of work in industry between the broadcasters to work together, to bring VOZ together, to BVOD work that's going on as well as getting TV buying easier, just in standardisation of file types. And a whole of lot of work that's gone through the TV 23, which you may have heard of, so that's happening at industry level. And then each of the broadcasters will deliver their own version of how they enable that. But we've all got a common goal, and that is to make TV buying easier and TV being the total television, which is Metro regional BVOD, that is, total television. So yes, ours does that as others will do.

Natalie Harvey: And just to build on that, the market has to evolve in how we classify time zones. If you think about how viewing behavior occurs on 7plus, there is no peak and off-peak. People are watching content whenever they want to watch it on whatever device they want to watch it. So I do think that as we move into a world of convergence, that the legacy ways of buying television across broadcast and digital need to evolve, and that's one area that is probably a potential that could change in the future.

Tim Burrowes: I noticed on LinkedIn when I was looking at your job titles, just now. You were just mentioning Natalie, that you are currently hiring for a Head of Convergence Audience Trading, which you mentioned in that as a sort of sales, tech, and product role. What does that say about the direction you're traveling in?

Natalie Harvey: Well, what's interesting about this role is as we've been looking at where this role exists currently, our understanding is nobody has a role like this in any organisation.

And what I believe that says about where we are moving to is very much a future-focused industry around screens coming together to make it easier for our customers to buy our audiences no matter where they are; to look at new ways of trading when it comes to currency of trading as well is a key piece there, but also having technical capabilities to be able to be part of our Code 7 Plus project build as well. So in all honesty, we're looking for a bit of a unicorn, but I think we might have found one.

Tim Burrowes: Who is it?

Natalie Harvey: You'll have to wait and see - keep watching my LinkedIn profile.

Kurt Burnette: But I think it's also worth adding to that. We have customers and our customers are our clients and their agency. So we can come up with whatever it is we want to come up with, but we have to be solving the challenges that are in front of us, that our customers need. So that's what we are solving for in this convergence piece of all of the briefs that are coming in for next year. Now for next year, they all include a solution that allows audience trading take place across broadcast and digital.

It's not going to happen every time straight away, but it's going to happen over time where effectively audience will be traded fluidly across platforms. It's happening. It's real, it's live, we're structuring our departments on it. We're hiring for it as you call out, as you mentioned, and we are setting up technology for it. So it's actually a very exciting time to be in television in that respect. And I think it's been a great deal of success on the BVOD services 7plus is going phenomenally well. That's allowed us to do things like what we're talking about now. If we had said two years ago, let's trade convergently, audience trading on Seven and 7plus, no one would have it.

Tim Burrowes: We'll come on to BVOD in a few minutes.. As you say, content is so much of the game still, of course, including for Seven West Media Sport. So one of the announcements this week, Commonwealth Games from Birmingham in the UK. Obviously, it's not the best time zone for you. How big do you expect them to be nonetheless?

Kurt Burnette: Well, I'll make a comment now that the Commonwealth Games will feature in the top 10 rating programs for 2022 because we've got 44 hours of prime time where there will be events played out, finals played out from 7:30. So we'll allow our news, Home and Away into live events. So live goes all the way through, into early morning, but that prime time is during the day, and remembering in Tokyo, that the finals for the swimming was during the day. We're not suggesting it's going to be to the same levels of Tokyo, but it's certainly going to be to the... As I say, it will feature in the top 10, if not top five ratings for 2022 across broadcast and BVOD bearing in mind it's total video.

So, 100 and I think it was 170 medals we won in 2018 Commonwealth Games. So you imagine that that's almost, I think it's double or triple the size of Tokyo. So there's a huge amount of Australian medalling going on. And as Nat mentioned before, it's redefining prime time. So you're going to see weekend day delivering the same numbers as prime time. So it's actually, it's a natural fit, really, after what's happened with Tokyo and what would've happened with the winter games in February next year, that we move into July and we have the Australian athletes on Seven and 7plus again.

Tim Burrowes: And one of the things that interest me is that you have bought all of the rights, including, as you say, in the announcement, the subscription TV rights. What are your options for those subscription TV rights? Because clearly, that's not an offering you currently have.

Kurt Burnette: We tried in Rio, we actually had a paid service through there. An element of it was paid, and look, our options are open at the moment - that's given all rights, including radio. It gives you options to utilize those subscription rights or not. I mean, it was great success in Tokyo without subscription, but I think anything's possible and we'll work out what the best proposition for us as a business is. And also what's best for the consumer and go from there. So I don't think anything's off the table, Tim that's for sure.

Tim Burrowes: Speaking of things that aren't off the table, you've also got first right of refusal on the 2024 Paris Olympics. And I must admit, I've been anticipating an announcement, perhaps around those this week as well. It’s less than three years away. When are you going to make your mind up about those?

Kurt Burnette: Well, all we can say about that is that the Olympics, they are in our DNA and it's something that we were there in 1956 in Australia, in Melbourne. So we love the Olympics. We've worked very well with them, very closely with the IOC and the Paralympics, I might add, we had great success with them. So we are all having discussions and we'll keep discussing those options with the IOC, but everything also has to make sense; there's no margin for rights that don't make financial sense.

Tim Burrowes: I think it was reported or I think maybe James Warburton said that one of the investor updates that Tokyo - and obviously understandably, because of all the disruption of COVID =- maybe lost the network, something like 50 million dollars. How do you go into a negotiation for Olympic rights and get the right outcome at the other end?

Kurt Burnette: Well, I wouldn't want to get into those details now, Tim, that's a very good question, but we have a view on that and let's just see where all of that ends up.

Tim Burrowes: Do you reckon if we were to talk in three years time, you'll still have the word Olympic in your job title?

Kurt Burnette: Well, given with how long it is. I've got to get something in there, don't I? So, yeah, that's a good reason to do it for sure. We'll add that to the list.

Tim Burrowes: Just one more sport question, and then I'll bring Natalie back in again. There was some reporting this week that Seven would be interested in NRL. Now a cynic thinks, okay, look, it's always worth saying that because it drives the price up for Nine, which doesn't do Seven any harm. Are you serious about getting NRL?

Kurt Burnette: Well, we were just talking about the power of sport and we are serious at about all market sports and NRL is one of those, but again, everything needs to make sense in the discussions, that's, I guess the best way to explain that.

Tim Burrowes: And do you think you could afford both NRL and Olympics?

Kurt Burnette: I think everything's affordable at the right price.

Tim Burrowes: Natalie, let me bring you back in. Something else, which really interests me about the content line-up, which would be interesting to get your sense of how you take something like it to the market. So this coming year, we'll see three talent shows, The Voice, Australia's Got Talent, and Australian Idol, the return of; how do you take that to the market? Is it one story at a time, or how do you tell the story?

Natalie Harvey: I think the benefit Tim, of having all those powerhouse talent shows is: A, we get to showcase diversity of talent because they're all slightly different, but B, we get to schedule them so that they don't compete against each other. And that they're complimentary to where we would expect to see a spike of audience or relevance for brands. So we treat them separately and we schedule them to where we believe we're going to get the best outcome for audiences as well, for brands as well.

Tim Burrowes: And then you've got a new twist on House Rules this year in Apartment Rules, which again, I guess the sponsor opportunities are fairly obvious around that?

Natalie Harvey: Oh, absolutely. All you have to do is drive a few Ks outside of Sydney and you'll see all the apartments that are being built along the light rail and other public transport lines. And you'll see how many people will be interested in this new format. And we've been able to prove with shows like The Voice, like Big Brother, and Farmer Wants a Wife that a re-imagined format will bring audiences in across both broadcasts and digital. And we know that house-building content is very popular for brands because it does bring in an audience that has money. And that is engaged in this really highly valuable content.

Tim Burrowes: And Natalie, as Kurt was saying, BVOD is growing. And again, it looks like there's a further investment in the kind of content library for that. What sort of revenue growth for BVOD have you budgeted for next year?

Natalie Harvey: So from a market perspective, we're expecting to see the growth that has been delivered over the past couple of years to continue, absolutely. And I do believe that with our approach to convergence and the market approach to convergence, that that will see that growth accelerate even further. Major events like the Commonwealth Games will bring in new digital revenue as well. We saw that with Tokyo, the attraction for non-television brands to invest into such a premium environment. So I think it's going to be another really positive year for BVOD.

Kurt Burnette: And just to add to that too, I think an important note of why 7plus is leading currently in the marketplace, there's probably a... It's driven by the big events. Tokyo certainly, drove the audience forward as do The Voice and SAS has been huge, but 70% of the content on 7plus is exclusive, that is it's not on broadcast.

So I think there is a misconception sometimes that it's a catch up service. I mean, certainly the large volumes comes through the streaming and the VOD of the big shows, of The Voice and SAS, et cetera, Home and Away. But it's a really key point. 70% is exclusive content on 7plus. And the viewing consumption is about 50/50. So, it's far more than just a catch up service. And it's a really important part of the strategy that's helped drive us to where we are.

Tim Burrowes: And the sheer amount of live programming that people are just choosing to take over BVOD, has that taken you by surprise a bit? As in the amount of people that are just using it to stream the main channels?

Kurt Burnette: Yeah, I think it's probably surprised that how much of that is going on, but what we saw earlier on was the connected television. So we saw this gradual rise of the streaming that was taking place going from mobile and laptop into the connected TV. So now it's over 70%. So once people move to the big screen that live streaming is starting to take a very, very stronghold. So now it's the norm that it is so much live streaming going on.

However, I will say that out of the Olympics, if you know, and it is the Olympics admittedly, but what an interesting insight was there that 59% of the video that was happening was of VOD and not of the Seven and Seven mate broadcast.

So there is some exclude stuff happening there, but certainly live streaming is big and certainly we saw that with the AFL Grand Final as well, but I still think, of one of the big trends that are continuing this year, that'll continue next year. And that is the connected television. I still say, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The most under-utilised marketing weapon in the country is the connected television. There's still a huge opportunity for brands to become involved with that technology is getting, ad tech is getting better at capturing that. We're working in a number of our new data solutions that we announced in the upfronts today about that, and will continue to focus on that area.

Tim Burrowes: Something else that's interested me today is, traditionally for any free to air TV network, just about all of its revenue comes from the advertisers and the sponsors, not from directly from the audience, you've announced Seven Shop, which is, I guess, an attempt to bring in the beginnings of a revenue stream direct from the audience. What sort of incremental revenue are you hoping to drive from that?

Kurt Burnette: Well, in the early stages, it's actually about content utilization. So Seven Shop is actually, we launched it a couple of years ago or 18 months ago under Seven CAP, which is contextual advertising placement. So that was about the ads where we used AI to take out moments in the creative, that we would place ads like party scenes, heavy party scenes, putting Cadbury's chocolates near ads, near those moments.

So finding the moments in the content and putting ads next to it, we launched 7 CAP and then enabled QR codes, dynamically inserted QR codes, which there are a number of those this year. The next evolution of that is Seven Shop, which means that you can actually shop the content as it appears in the content itself on 7plus. So if you are watching Home and Away and you pause, you can actually see the board shorts, the sunglasses, the product that's in the show itself, and you can get information on it, put it in your cart or shop straight away.

So the initial benefits for that is viewer engagement and then also advertiser engagement. So EVE is our philosophy, the enhanced advertiser, and viewer experience. We've spoken about that a lot. That's what this does. So Seven Shop initially is about a stickiness for an audience and us as an enabler to a direct link to a brands purchase. The revenue, the earnings on the way through. We are not, just to be clear in the early stages, we are not creating a marketplace, our own marketplace. Seven Shop is a e-commerce enabler, is what we'll use that in the first instance. And then we'll sort of... This is a multi-year strategy, we're into the second year of that. So it will evolve and potentially earn clips of tickets on the way through. But the early stages is as an enabler, which is the other part to that is the Seven Rewards, which we launched with a company called Entertainment, which was the original rewards program, which was in the all-time booklet that's turned into digital.

So that is part of this ecosystem, if you like and strategy, which is, if you are watching in 7plus you get rewarded for watching more, coming in more, watching longer, and you get rewards for doing so that is half price tickets, 10% off this or that, whatever it might be. That does two things, it creates a value equation for the customer coming into 7plus. So it's a viewer engagement. Again, this is the EVE proposition, but for the advertiser, it obviously means that their brand is in front of clients and sorry, consumers. And they are transacting with that brand inside that environment. And they can also shop with Seven Shop. It's a combination of action and attention and attribution because all of that throws off data. It's another reason in a cookie-less world of why somebody would provide their information to you. So if there's a very clear strategy on a number of levels, and we'd like to think that it's the full funnel market solution; driving broadcast strategies or brand strategies linking into eCommerce strategies.

Tim Burrowes: Maybe the final question from me. And I think hopefully it's one you can both answer and have different answers to. One of the things that strikes me about the program line-up is there's a lot of stability. There's a lot of - and I mean this in a good way - safe bets for marketers where they'll have plenty of information about how shows are going to perform based on how they've done previously. But also, of course, the TV industry does like and reward risk-taking. So I wonder from both of you, when you look at all the announcements from this week, what do you each think is the bravest thing you are going to do next year?

Kurt Burnette: Well, that is a good question. Because the line-up, and I guess, Hey, Hey, it's Saturday special on Sunday night sort of highlighted the fact that nostalgia is powerful. We believe-

Tim Burrowes: Yes, not many people expected the sort of ratings it delivered.

Kurt Burnette: No, they didn't, but it talks to known but new. So known formats in a new way of delivering, and I think probably the biggest announcement, and the one that I think could perform the best out of all of those shows coming back is My Kitchen Rules. I would say that's probably the safest bet. Probably doesn't answer quite your question. But I think, after the research we've done and we did talk about it coming back last year. I think you might recall. And it wasn't right, but this time it's right. It's shorter, faster, fresher. It'll have all the e-comm stuff in there. That's nothing to do with the consumer side necessarily, but it's just another engager. But for me, that's probably the show I'm most excited about that I think can really make a difference into the back half of next year, launched out of the, or near enough to out of the Commonwealth Game. So yeah, I think that's probably the biggest, safest bet for us.

Natalie Harvey: I like how Kurt turned that question around, always a salesman, but I 100% agree with him.

From my perspective. And I'll take a buyer's view on it just because I used to be a buyer and I'll say the winter Olympics or the Olympic winter games. And the reason why I say it is because last time, when we were selling it with a very similar time zone, we had a lot of people saying, "Oh, it's not going to rate. People aren't going to watch it's the winter Olympics." And boy, they were wrong. Same with Tokyo. It was massively under forecast by the buyers. And we have people scrambling to get on. I think that the Olympic winter games provides a massive opportunity for brands. A really nice alternative to what else is on at that time of the year and will deliver huge cross screen audiences so I would suggest there's probably some people sitting there going, "Olympic winter games, not sure" but avoid at your peril would be my suggestion there.

Tim Burrowes: Well, upfronst is always a busy week, so I will let you both go about your duties. Natalie Harvey and Kurt Burnette, thank you very much.

Kurt Burnette: Thanks, Tim, great to talk.

Natalie Harvey: Thank you.

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Toodlepip…

Tim Burrowes

Proprietor - Unmade

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