Tax Chats: Recent Episodes
Dyreng and Hoopes
Taxes touch every aspect of society, including who rules, where factories are built, what people drink, what car they buy, when they have children, and when they die. Scott Dyreng (Duke) and Jeff Hoopes (UNC), two accounting professors, chat about taxes, including current events, with the energy of an over-caffeinated chihuahua. Listening is guaranteed to be far more entertaining than actually paying your taxes.
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We start by explaining the Tax Chats DC Tour, 2025, an exclusive live event!
Then, Jeff and Scott chat with Pete Sepp, President of the National Taxpayers Union. They talk about the work the NTU has done in the past, and what it currently does, including advocate for legislation that is beneficial to taxpayers and engaging in litigation the NTU believes will bring about taxpayer-friendly changes. Pete gives advice to those who want to make the world a friendly place for taxpayers and want to engage in tax advocacy.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Ajay Mehrotra, law professor at Northwestern, about the economist Edwin Seligman. They discuss Seligman's academic legacy, his views on progressive taxation, his influence on Columbia University, his students, and his views on tax policy.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Marc Goldwein, who is the Senior Vice President and Senior Policy Director for the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget. They chat about Medicaid, a huge piece in the federal government's budget, and an essential piece of understand what needs our tax system must satisfy. They talk about the program in general, ways in which it was recently reformed under the One Big Beautiful Bill, and what we might do to fix it going forward.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Anna Dolganov, an academy scientist at the Austrian Archeological Institute, about her work on a recently re-discovered papyrus. The papyrus contained notes from a tax evasion trial in ancient Rome, which Dr. Dolganov translated. We discuss taxes in ancient Rome, Jewish tax revolts, how to evade taxes on the goods Rome taxed (including human slaves), and what we can learn from the papyrus about the trial.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Henry (Hank) Aaron, a Senor Fellow Emeritus at the Brookings Institution, about Social Security. They discuss how it started, how we fund it, who gets it, how it has been reformed, and how it could be fixed.
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Jeff and Scott very briefly talk about the bombshell news that podcasters are included on the Treasury's list of jobs eligible for "no tax on tips."
https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/Tipped-Occupations-Detailed-8-27-2025.pdf
Left unexplored is whether any of the other provisions of no tax on tips will preclude Scott and Jeff from receiving tax-free tip income, by means of the credit available to offset declared tip income available in The One Big Beautiful Bill.
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Jeff and Scott talk with Kyle Pomerleau about how inflation interacts with tax policy and the tax law. Kyle points out that inflation interacts in two major ways: When we tax gains that happen over long periods of time, and we have to think about whether adjusting the gain for inflation would help, and, when the tax system includes explicit dollar values, such as in thresholds, amounts of credits, the income tax brackets themselves.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Brad Setser, a Senior Fellow on the Council of Foreign Relations, about income shifting among pharma firms, as well as the impact that shifting has on tariffs and international trade.
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Jeff and Scott take a look at 4 books that Jeff has recently acquired for the Tax Museum library, which numbers at least 677 volumes. Almost all of these books were a an academic bequest from one of Jeff's mentees, Joel Slemrod.
Jeff introduces four books, asks a question related to the book, and Scott tries his best at answering. The four books mentioned, and the approximate year of their original publication:
Rich and Poor (1898) - Helen Bosanquet
Capital (1867) - Karl Marx
Political Economy (1837) - Francis Wayland
The National Revenues (1888) - Albert Shaw
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In this episode, Jeff and Scott talk with Anders Anderson, a finance professor at the Stockholm School of Economics about, his research evaluating Sweden’s nationwide e-bike subsidy. The program successfully doubled e-bike sales, but had only a modest impact on reducing car use—far less than survey responses suggested. People bought b-bikes, then didn't really use them. When accounting for actual emissions reductions, the cost of carbon abatement was around $800 per ton, which most people agree is more than the social cost of carbon. We discuss why the policy wasn’t cost-effective and what better subsidies might look like.
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Jeff and Scott chat for a third time with BlueJ CEO Ben Alarie about new innovations in tax research using artificial intelligence, especially how these tools are being used by tax practitioners, the efficiency gains to using them, and how BlueJ goes about continually improving these tax research tools.
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In this episode, Scott and Jeff chat with Ruth Braunstein about her recent book "My Tax Dollars: The Morality of Taxpaying in America" wherein we discuss complicated issues related to using tax dollars to fund controversial issues like abortion and war. We discuss taxpayer resistance. We chat about the complexities that arise in government use of taxpayer dollars when the underlying population is extremely diverse.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Kathleen Thomas, a UNC tax law professor, about a recent proposal to allow businesses to have a standard deduction, rather than track expenses. Kathleen explains how this proposal would simplify compliance with and administration of the tax code.
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The House Ways and Means Committee has pass The One Big Beautiful Bill the TOBBB). Knowing this was coming up, Jeff invited Scott to go on a Tax Chats road trip, but, got rejected--Scott was too busy. So, Jeff watched the process from a distance. Jeff discusses what he observed, and Jeff and Scott discuss the contents of the bill, for far as it was passed by the House Ways and Means Committee.
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Jeff and Scott talk about the relationship taxes have with each other. How are value added taxes related to sales taxes or the border adjustment tax, and how are all related to income taxes (or are they just unrelated)? Find out by listening to this amazing episode.
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Jeff and Scott talk to Ryan Monarch, economics professor at Syracuse University, about what we know about the tariffs imposed by the first Donald Trump administration in 2018.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Adam Michel of the Cato Institute about tax expenditures. Adam currently has on his X account the Tax Expenditure Madness brackets (also on his substack: https://adamnmichel.substack.com/). Adam sets up brackets like the March Madness NCAA basketball tournament, but instead of pitting basketball teams against each other to establish the best team*, he has tax expenditures competing to determine which is the worst expenditure. Jeff, Scott and Adam chat about several sets of tax expenditures, and offer their somewhat tongue-in-cheek opinion about which ones are worst.
*For example, by establishing that UNC women's basketball has won a national championship 1 time, compared to Duke's 0 times, or that UNC men's basketball has won the NCAA tournament 6 times, compared to Duke's 5 times. Of note is that of all teams with over 20 games played in the NCAA men's tournament, Duke has the highest winning percentage, which is only to say that they win a lot before they ultimately lose--they choke under pressure in the end.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Bill Gale of the Tax Policy Center about his new paper (with Oliver Hall and John Sabelhaus), "The Same But Different: How the Income Tax Affects Black, Hispanic, and White Households." We discuss how the bottom 70% of Black households, by income, pay less in tax than White households with similar incomes. This occurs because Black households have more dependents, on average, than White households, and children are tax advantaged in the U.S. In the top 30% of households, by income, White households pay less in tax because they are more likely to have tax-advantaged forms of income, such as capital gains. Across the first nine income deciles, Hispanic taxpayers pay less in tax, as Hispanic households tend to have more dependents throughout the income distribution.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Oyebola Okunogbe, an economist at the World Bank. They discuss tax enforcement in the developing world, including the challenges developing world countries face that more developed countries do not face, and, how those challenges shape tax systems.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott talk about Elena Patel , an economics professor at the University of Utah, about her time working at the Council of Economic Advisors. Elena worked as a tax economist advising the chair of the CEA, who is an economic advisor to the President. Elena talks about how one gets this job, what one does in the job, what the CEA is general, and how the CEA interacts in a very political world.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Rita de la Feria on tax fairness. Fairness is in the eye of the beholder, and tax fairness, in particular, appears to be particularly sensitive to whose eye is beholding.
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This episode originally aired on January 15, 2022. We are releasing it for Martin Luther King day, January 20, 2025. If you already heard it and don't wish to hear it again, skip it!Martin Luther King Jr. is the only person to have ever been tried for perjury with regards to state income taxes in Alabama. Jeff and Scott interview Edgar Dyer about the tax perjury trial of Martin Luther King Jr. in 1960. Eddie wrote an article entitled "A Triumph of Justice in Alabama: The 1960 Perjury Trial of Martin Luther King, Jr."Fred Grey, Martin Luther King's attorney, said of the trial, "No one would have predicted that an all-white jury in Montgomery, Alabama, the Cradle of the Confederacy, in May 1960, in the middle of all the sit-ins and all of the racial tension that was going on, would exonerate Martin Luther King, Jr. But it really happened." Coretta Scott King said of the trial, "A southern jury of twelve white men had acquitted Martin. It was a triumph of justice, a miracle that restored your faith in human good." Dr. King said it was a "turning point" in his life. Tune in to hear about this triumphal tax trial, which was a turning point for Martin Luther King.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Dan Walter's, an Opinion Columnist for CalMatters. They chat about Prop 13, a law that dramatically limits property tax increases in California, and was passed in 1978. Dan has been writing about California since 1975, and shares his perspectives on Prop 13 from having lived through and covered the debate surrounding its passage, as well as what effects Prop 13 has had since its passage.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Seth Colby, a Tax Research and Planning Officer for the State of Hawaii. They discussed a recent policy change in Hawaii, where Hawaii dramatically reduced income tax rates, while increasing sales taxes, in an effort to both collect less revenue for lower-income Hawaiians, while generating additional revenue from those visiting Hawaii temporarily.
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Jeff and Scott chat with West Virginia University accounting professor, and lawyer, John Treu, about the regulation of paid tax preparers, including John's empirical evidence that they improve return quality and the Loving case.
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Scott and Jeff discuss what constitutes candy, for sales tax purposes, in North Carolina. The discussion ends with the verdict on craisins--are they candy? Scott is quizzed on other types of food and whether they are candy, and, scores a perfect 0/5.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Cara Griffith, CEO of Tax Analysts about Tax Notes, the main product of Tax Analysts. Tax Notes is a tax practitioner publication catering to tax professionals, and Jeff and Scott talk about who reads Tax Notes, how content is produced, and who the competitors to Tax Notes are.
Finally, we discuss Tax Analysts' ownership of the URL https://taxmuseum.org/, which is a direct competitor to the much better http://thetaxmuseum.org.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Felix Tintelnot about electric cars, and the subsidies they were given before the IRA, and in the IRA. We learn that because electric cars are heavier and therefore more likely to crush you to death if they crash into you, they create negative externalities, in addition to the positive benefit of reducing pollution.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Paul Monaghan, the CEO of the Fair Tax Foundation. The Fair Tax Foundation certifies companies for paying a "good" amount of tax, focusing on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law, certifying companies from small to publicly traded large corporations. How can you tell if a company is paying a fair amount in tax? Listen to the episode to find out!
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Marcel Olbert, assistant professor of accounting at London Business School, and Daniel Klein, assistant to the CFO at Heidelberg Materials. They discuss carbon taxes, and a new paper Marcel has on carbon leakage. They also discuss how carbon taxes and leakage affect Heidelberg Materials, one of the largest producers of cement in the world. Cement production contributes an enormous amount of carbon into the atmosphere, and so it is very sensitive to carbon taxation.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Nana Ama Sarfo, a contributing editor with Tax Notes, with a special interest in covering taxes in the developing world. They chat about the recent deadly tax protests in Kenya, where a tax increase on basic life staples lead to violence in the street, parliament being lit on fire, and death.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott chat with economist and professor Matthew Tarduno about the problems that automobile traffic causes, and different ways that have been devised to solve the problem (including tax-adjacent ways!).
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Senator Daniel McCay, chairman of the Utah Senate Revenue and Taxation Committee, about how he thinks about tax policy, what the objectives of tax policy are, and how he thinks Utah is doing tax-wise.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Michael Graetz, Professor Emeritus of Law at Yale, about his new book, The Power to Destroy: How the Antitax Movement Hijacked America. We talk about the start of the anti-tax movement with the opposition to property tax increases in California, the Regan-era tax cuts, and how the desire to cut taxes has shaped American politics over the last 40 years.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott talk with Iowa law professor Andy Grewal about the recent Supreme Court case, Loper Bright Enterprises v. Raimondo, which effectively eliminates Chevron deference. They discuss the ramifications for tax and non-tax administrative law.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jeff and Scott talk with Scott Hodge (who is revealed to be a more authentic "Scott" than Scott Dyreng), CEO Emeritus to the Tax Foundation. They discuss his new book, "Taxocracy: What You Don't Know About Taxes and How They Rule Your Daily Life", about all the ways which taxes shape our lives.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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In this episode, Jeff and Scott chat once more with Daniel Hemel. In the past we have spoken with Daniel about taxing stock buybacks (episode #79) and Donald Trump's tax returns (episode #80). This time we talk about the carefully watched supreme court decision Moore v USA.
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Henry David Thoreau famously refused to pay his poll tax and went to jail (very briefly) as a result. Jeff and Scott chat with Laura Dassow Walls, emerita English professor at Notre Dame and author of Henry David Thoreau: A Life, about what we can learn from Thoreau about taxes and the relationship they create between taxpayers and the state.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
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Jacob Bastian tells us all about the earned income tax credit (EITC).
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Jeff and Scott talk to Nathan Goldman, accounting professor at North Carolina State University (completing the tax triangle between UNC, Duke, and NC State!)., about taxes and online sports betting. Sports betting was recently legalized in North Carolina, and Nathan co-wrote (with Christina Lewellen) a widely circulated piece about the tax implications of sports betting,:
https://poole.ncsu.edu/thought-leadership/article/the-taxation-of-online-sports-betting-in-north-carolina/
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Scott and Jeff chat with Martha Gimbel, executive director of The Budget Lab at Yale University. We discuss the functions of the lab, including its efforts on budget scoring.
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Jeff and Scott chat with Gabriel Zucker about Code for America's efforts to enable better access to free tax filing, both at the federal level, and, facilitating state tax filing as the IRS roles out its direct filing program.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Partho Shome about taxes in the colonial era in India, especially the excise tax on salt. They then discuss how these taxes lead to the famous "salt march" led by Mahatma Gandhi, which ultimately lead to Indian Independence. This experience is contrasted to the American independance movement, which also had roots in taxes levied by the British East India Company, and lessons for modern tax policy are discussed.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Recorded on April 15, Jeff and Scott Chat about tax code complexity. Why is the tax code so complex? Is it because life is complex? Because we have chosen to hone the tax code to achieve certain social goals? Jeff and Scott chat about it all in light of Scott not being able to complete his tax code until the very last moment.
Scott and Jeff chat with Nic Duquette, Professor of Public Policy at the University of Southern California. We discuss charitable giving, tax deductions related to charitable giving, tax exempt organizations, and the like.
Listener submitted correction: "there is no longer an above-the-line charitable deduction for cash contributions for tax years after 2021 (it was a temporary Covid-era provision as Scott had thought in asking the question). It was first enacted in the CARES Act for tax year 2020 only - prior law sec. 62(a)(22). It was then extended to tax year 2021, the final year it was in effect, through sec. 170(p). The provision initially read "In the case of taxable years beginning in 2020" - but the only tax year that begins in 2020 is the 2020 tax year. Under sec. 170(p), the provision reads "In the case of any taxable year beginning in 2021" (again, the only tax year that begins in 2021 is the 2021 tax year). The deduction was $300 in 2020 and increased to $600 in 2021 for joint returns."
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Samford University law professor Tracey Roberts about Cordell Hull. Hull was a senator, secretary of state, and, won the Nobel Prize for his role in creating the United Nations. However, he also had a substantial role in creating the income tax, which Tracey, Jeff and Scott discuss. This episode is based on Professor Roberts article, "A Man for His Era and for Ours: Cordell Hull, Father of the Federal Income Tax", published in the Cumberland Law Review.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Clyde Ray, a political scientist and author of the book John Marshall's Constitutionalism, about the Supreme Court case McCulloch v Maryland, which hinged on whether a state could tax a federal bank.
In this case, John Marshall teaches us that "the power to tax involves the power to destroy."
Jeff and Scott chat with Alexander Arnon. Alex serves as the Director of Business Tax and Economic Analysis at the Penn Wharton Budget Model, and he explains the Wyden-Smith tax deal, including the extension of the business tax components of the TCJA, the expansion of the child tax credit, and the Employee Retention Credit. Alex talks about the background on the deal, as well as how Penn Wharton provided their revenue estimate.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Douglas Holtz-Eakin, the President of the American Action Forum, former director of the CBO, and former chief economic policy adviser to Senator John McCain's 2008 presidential campaign. Doug has also testified before Congress more than anyone else that did not do so as a requirement of their job. Jeff and Scott discuss the purpose of Congressional testimony, who is asked to do it, and some of Doug's experiences testifying.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Wojciech Kopczuk, professor of Economics at Columbia University, an editor at the Journal of Public Economics, and IgNobel Prize Winner, about the trends in income inequality. The long-standing received wisdom is that income inequality is high, and growing higher. A recent paper published in the Journal of Political Economy by Gerry Auten and David Splinter call into question that finding. Jeff, Scott and Wojciech talk about the difficulties in measuring income inequality, its consequences, etc.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Laura Snyder, an advocate for an improved tax system for Americans living abroad. Laura is currently the President of Stop Extraterritorial American Taxation, (SEAT) and is also an American living abroad. They talk about the different types of Americans living abroad, and how their lives are complicated by the American tax system.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
This episode originally aired on January 15, 2022.
Martin Luther King Jr. is the only person to have ever been tried for perjury with regards to state income taxes in Alabama. Jeff and Scott interview Edgar Dyer about the tax perjury trial of Martin Luther King Jr. in 1960. Eddie wrote an article entitled "A Triumph of Justice in Alabama: The 1960 Perjury Trial of Martin Luther King, Jr."
Fred Grey, Martin Luther King's attorney, said of the trial, "No one would have predicted that an all-white jury in Montgomery, Alabama, the Cradle of the Confederacy, in May 1960, in the middle of all the sit-ins and all of the racial tension that was going on, would exonerate Martin Luther King, Jr. But it really happened." Coretta Scott King said of the trial, "A southern jury of twelve white men had acquitted Martin. It was a triumph of justice, a miracle that restored your faith in human good." Dr. King said it was a "turning point" in his life. Tune in to hear about this triumphal tax trial, which was a turning point for Martin Luther King.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
For the second time, Jeff and Scott chat with Benjamin Alarie, a law professor at the University of Toronto, and, the founder and CEO of BlueJ. They talk about one of BlueJ's products which predicts tax court case outcomes, and also discuss the future of AI and taxes generally.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
A Way to Pay Taxes (to the tune of Away in the Manger)
Re-release (originally released Christmas, 2021)
Lyrics by Jeff Hoopes, Sung by Stacey Hoopes
Oh Joseph and Mary
They were there for a task
They came to the city
To pay their tax
But as they remitted
The tax on their worth
Oh Mary, a virgin
She had to give birth
They went to the city
By Caesar’s decree
As taxes touched Joseph
They affect you and me
When we give birth
and when we die
How much we work
And what car we buy
For every decision
We weigh how we act
By counting the cost
And we do it post-tax
The pros and the cons
In dollars and cents
We consider the taxes
Before we commence
Jeff and Scott talk about two taxes levied at the Hoopes household, the "floor tax", and the "toilet tax." These two taxes demonstrate how the tax system can be used as either a carrot or a stick, and the benefit of each approach, and the importance of administrative costs (which made the toilet tax impractical). We also discus how, and whether, taxes can be used to solve social problems. Scott vows to do better in taxing the subjects of his kingdom.
Jeff and Scott talk with UNC Marketing professor Kristopher Keller about his work on the effect of marketing on soda taxes (joint work with Jonne Guyt and Rajdeep Grewal). After passing a soda tax, a tax on sugared beverages meant to discourage their consumption, stores can change their marketing of soda. Kristopher, with coauthors, show that stores actually decrease the amount of marketing they do, which contributes to some of the decline in soda consumption which has been documented to accompany soda taxes. In sum, Kristopher shows that marketing can affect the measured elasticity of soda consumption with respect to the soda tax rate.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with Benjamin Angel, the Director for Direct Taxation, Tax Coordination, Economic Analysis and Evaluation at the European Commission. The EC has recently proposed rules that would enable smaller business that have operations across EU countries to have a simplified tax filing process, reducing compliance costs and making the tax filing process easier. These rules will allow companies to calculate their tax base according to a common set of rules (not a different base for every country), and, provides an allocation mechanism to allocate profits to the countries in which the small EU multinational operates.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott chat with two state and local tax experts, Stacey Roberts and Meredith Smith, about the state and local tax deduction cap put in by Congress in 2017, and ways states are allowing their residents to get around it.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
In this episode, Jeff and Scott chat with Nick Guest, Assistant Professor of Accounting at Cornell University's SC Johnson College of Business about a recent study he conducted related to stock repurchases, available published here or in working paper version here.
Jeff and Scott chat with Benjamin Alarie, a law professor at the University of Toronto, and, the founder and CEO of BlueJ. They talk about one of BlueJ's products, Ask BlueJ, which is a generative AI system that allows users to ask it technical tax questions, and, get answers. They discuss how responses are quickly improving, how this AI is different from ChatGPT, and, the future of generative AI for tax research.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff and Scott discussed a new tax proposal with Natasha Sarin, an economist and lawyer at Yale Law School and Yale School of Management. Natasha, in collaboration with Kim Clausing, developed a plan aimed at increasing tax revenue. This plan also anticipaties several tax provisions expiring in 2025.
The proposal, "The Coming Fiscal Cliff: A Blueprint for Tax Reform in 2025," includes the following proposals, among others:
- Raising the corporate tax rate.
- Overhauling the current international tax system.
- Introducing a carbon tax.
- Securing permanent funding for the IRS.
- Implementing a financial transactions tax.
- Expanding the Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Tax Credit.
Overall, these measures aim to generate an additional 3.5 trillion in revenue, over the current baseline of projected revenue
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Nina Olsen was the National Taxpayer Advocate for the United States, a position overseeing the IRS which was created by Congress and described in the Internal Revenue Code. The National Taxpayer Advocate is responsible for overseeing more than 2,000 employees of the office of the National Taxpayer Advocate. We discuss the responsibilities of the taxpayer advocate, the creation of the Office of National Taxpayer Advocate, and, the types of work the taxpayer advocate has been engaged in in the past two decades.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
In this episode, we chat with author and historian Brady Crytzer, who recently published "The Whiskey Rebellion: A Distilled History of an American Crisis ". Brady also hosts "Dispatches: The Podcast of the Journal of the American Revolution"
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
Jeff was recently asked to opine on whether Republican GOP candidate for president Vivek Ramaswamy grew up with a lot of money. Scott and Jeff dive into Vivek's tax returns for evidence.
Get CPE for listening to Tax Chats! Free CPE courses are available approximately one week after episodes are published. Visit https://earmarkcpe.com/ to download the free app. Go to the Tax Chats channel, register for the course, take a short quiz, and earn your CPE certificate.
The Inflation Reduction Act extended the provision of tax incentives for electric vehicles, but, added stipulations that these EVs be produced in North America. Manufacturers outside of North America, including Korean auto manufacturers, had a problem--would they miss out on these subidies that their customers had previously been getting? Trade economist Chad Brown tells the story about how the US Treasury, by regulation, appears to have solved Korea's problem by regulation.
Scott and Jeff Discuss the upcoming Supreme Court case, Moore v. USA, with Jake Brooks, a professor of law at Fordham University. Jake explains that Mr. and Mrs. Moore held shares in an Indian corporation , and, as a result of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, faced some $15,000 in taxes. They claim that this tax is unconstitutional, and, the case has implications for many features of our current tax code, for the TCJA in general, as well as the hopes some have of taxing unrealized capital gains or a wealth taxation more broadly.
In honor of the first birthday of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), Jeff and Scott discuss the major provisions of the IRA, and references the episodes they have recorded about these provisions. They discuss the green incentives and their changing estimated cost, and, the three major way the IRA was intended to pay for those incentives--a tax on adjusted financial statement income, increasing the budget at the IRS, and an excise tax on share repurchases.
They reference the following past coverage on IRA provisions on Tax Chats:
Episode 101: Transferable tax credits in the Inflation Reduction Act. A Chat with Gary Hecimovich
Episode 86: Tax Credit Markets: A Chat with Bryen Alperin
Episode 79: Taxing Stock Buybacks: A Chat with Daniel Hemel
Episode 76: How will corporations respond to the tax on book income? A chat with Todd Castagno
Episode 65: Un-Adjusting the Tax Code by Taxing Adjusted Financial Accounting Income in the Inflation Reduction Act
Episode 62: Does the IRS really have guns? Debunking some recent fear mongering
Episode 61: The Book Minimum Tax -- A Compilation of Thoughts
The tax law allows taxpayers to trade one piece of property for another piece of property and not recognize any taxable gain. These exchanges are called like kind exchanges, and, in this episode, we chat about them with Eric Tellekamp, a managing director at BDO.
Jeff and Scott chat with Jenny Williams, Tax Administrator with Chatham County, North Carolina. We discuss the ins and outs of property tax collection, including garnishing wages, repossessing assets, and foreclosing on real property. We talk about how the county manages to collect over 95% of property taxes owed. We bust a few myths about property taxes in the process.
We chat with James Freeman about Filing for Freedom, a non-profit organization that helps military personal comply with the tax law by aiding in the tax return filing process.
Historian Ben Carp talks with us about the role of taxes in the American revolution. Among many other things, we discuss whether taxes were the only grievance the colonists had against Britain, how heavily the colonies were taxed relative to the English in England, and, most importantly, how much of a party was the Boston tea party.
Ben is the author of several books, including, relevant to our discussion today,
"Defiance of the Patriots: The Boston Tea Party & the Making of America"
and most recently, "The Great New York Fire of 1776: A Lost Story of the American Revolution"
Scott and Jeff chat with Gary Hecimovich about the transferability of tax credits in the post-IRA world, including the markets for tax credits, and how non-profits can now take advantage of the new green energy incentives provided in the Inflation Reduction Act.
Jeff and Scott Chat with Kelly Necessary, a Partner at FORVIS, a large public accounting firm. We chat with Kelly about the role of automating routine tax tasks that historically have been very time consuming. We also talk about whether opening envelopes can be mechanized.
Scott and Jeff chat with Joel Slemrod, Professor of Economics at the University of Michigan about tax research over the past 30 years.
In this episode, Scott and Jeff chat with Berkeley Professor of Marketing Sarah Moshary about the Pink Tax. Sarah and co-authors have written a paper that systematically examines the issue.
In this episode, Marna Ricker, Global Vice Chair -- Tax at EY joins us from the Milken Institute Global Conference 2003 to discuss the global tax landscape. We get Marna's perspective on the OECD's Base Erosion and Profit Shifting Project, the TCJA, and how AI might affect the world of tax practice.
We chat with Morris Pearl, Chairman of the Board of Patriotic Millionaires, an organization of millionaires who, among other policy objectives, are advocating to alter the tax system so that the rich pay more in tax.
We chat with Silencer Central CEO Brandon Maddox about the excise tax stamp on firearm suppressors, which is a $200 federal tax introduced as part of the 1934 National Firearms Act., which is part of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC § 5801 – 5872). We discuss the origins of the tax, its purpose, and how it is implemented today. We discuss the formation of so-called "gun trusts" as legal entities to purchase suppressors.
Scott and Jeff chat with Jay Zagorsky from the Questrom School of Business at Boston University about his experience trying to pay his tax bill with cash. We discuss the complexities of paying with cash, and the costs that might be incurred if one does not have access to the traditional banking system. Jay wrote about his article here:
Can you pay your taxes with cash? One economist did | Fortune
Starbucks is piloting a reward program called Odyssey in which members get rewarded with NFTs. We discuss the possible tax consequences to Starbucks and its customers. We also discuss the issues surrounding taxation of NFTs in general.
In "The Wealth of Nations", Book V, Chapter ii, Adam Smith lays out some fundamental principles of taxation. We discuss some of those principles, and describe how they are still being applied today.
Scott and Jeff chat with Sir Andrew Dilnot, currently serving of Warden of Nuffield College, Oxford, about his experience evaluating bias in the BBC's coverage of tax-related topics. We discuss the complications reporters face when covering complex economic issues. We review the findings of his recent report entitled "Review of the impartiality of BBC coverage of taxation, public spending, government borrowing and debt."
We chat with James Wetzler about the time a legislative mistake accidentally abolished the corporate tax in 1975. This leads to other discussions, including when the New York State Tax Authorities tried to impose sales tax on a kids lemonade stand, the dilemma that arose when the tax authorities seized pornographic videos from a delinquent taxpayer, and the strange situation where an IRS auditor uncovered evidence of a murder.
Near the end, we also briefly discuss the deterrent effect of the new excise tax on share repurchases.
Scott and Jeff chat with Evelyn Smith and Hadi Elzayn, two of the seven coauthors on a recent working paper entitled "Measuring and Mitigating Racial Disparities in Tax Audits."
We ask them details about the paper. We find that the unconditional audit disparity between (estimated) black tax payers and (estimated) non-black taxpayers is about 5%. We ask about the conditional disparity. The authors explain that conditional on some factors the disparity remains. We discuss what constitutes an audit (a letter in this case). We ask whether the IRS should care about collecting the most amount of revenue, or whether the IRS should care about deterring non-compliance.
President Biden gave the State of the Union address last night. Scott and Jeff talk about the tax components of the address. They discuss large corporations which pay little in tax, billionaires who pay little in tax, and taxing share repurchases., and "apples and elephants comparisons."
Also, Jeff explains why it is impossible for pretty much any taxpayer, let alone those making under $400K a year, to pay a penny more in taxes under any of President Biden's current or former tax proposals (IRC 985 and 6102 come into play!).
Note: We base this episode off of the official script of the State of the Union address (https://www.whitehouse.gov/state-of-the-union-2023/), which omits some fabulous adlibbing by President Biden.
In this episode, Scott and Jeff speak with Ryan Gurule of the FACT Coalition about the types of things companies disclose about taxes in their public filings. We talk about what is good and not so good, and we discuss some of the possible changes that might be made. We recorded this episode on November 1, 2022. Later in the year, the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) announce an update to its "Improvements to Tax Disclosures" project. The proposals are well aligned with what we discussed in the episode.
Scott and Jeff chat with Bryen Alperin about tax credit markets. It is often the case that a company that might earn a tax credit can't use it because it has insufficient income. This creates an opportunity for multilateral tax planning, wherein institutions with large tax bills partner with entities that generate tax credits to take take advantage of tax savings.
This episode originally aired on January 15, 2022.
Martin Luther King Jr. is the only person to have ever been tried for perjury with regards to state income taxes in Alabama. Jeff and Scott interview Edgar Dyer about the tax perjury trial of Martin Luther King Jr. in 1960. Eddie wrote an article entitled "A Triumph of Justice in Alabama: The 1960 Perjury Trial of Martin Luther King, Jr."
Fred Grey, Martin Luther King's attorney, said of the trial, "No one would have predicted that an all-white jury in Montgomery, Alabama, the Cradle of the Confederacy, in May 1960, in the middle of all the sit-ins and all of the racial tension that was going on, would exonerate Martin Luther King, Jr. But it really happened." Coretta Scott King said of the trial, "A southern jury of twelve white men had acquitted Martin. It was a triumph of justice, a miracle that restored your faith in human good." Dr. King said it was a "turning point" in his life. Tune in to hear about this triumphal tax trial, which was a turning point for Martin Luther King.
Scott and Jeff chat with David Kemmerer, Co-Founder and CEO of CoinLedger. Our conversation focuses, in part, on the NFT Loss Harvestooor, which is a tool designed to allow investors to dispose of NFTs such that they can claim the tax deduction. The NFT Graveyard is the final resting place of NFTs that were once worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, but are now worth essentially nothing.
Scott and Jeff chat with Leopoldo Parada, professor of law at University of Leeds about the inequities that Pillar II of the OECD's Inclusive Framework impose on developing countries.
Away to Pay Taxes (to the tune of Away in the Manger)
Re-release (originally released Christmas, 2021)
Lyrics by Jeff Hoopes, Sung by Stacey Hoopes
Oh Joseph and Mary
They were there for a task
They came to the city
To pay their tax
But as they remitted
The tax on their worth
Oh Mary, a virgin
She had to give birth
They went to the city
By Caesar’s decree
As taxes touched Joseph
They affect you and me
When we give birth
and when we die
How much we work
And what car we buy
For every decision
We weigh how we act
By counting the cost
And we do it post-tax
The pros and the cons
In dollars and cents
We consider the taxes
Before we commence
In honor of the fifth anniversary of the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act...
I Heard the Bells (of tax reform!)Sung to the tune of I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day
Singing by two of Dyreng's Deductions
Lyrics of Jeff Hoopes
I heard the tale about the day
They passed the law TCJA
The rate was high our firms payed much
So they were blessed by Donald’s touch
The rate brought low that fated day
When Congress put out on display
That we are strong and we will beat
On taxes we will now compete
For mobile factors move and shift
Their presence all boats will lift
And the economy will grow
For rates were high and now they're low
Scott and Jeff chat with Daniel Hemel about the House Ways and Means Committee "Report on the Internal Revenue Service's Mandatory Audit Program" that reveals substantial information about former President Trump's tax returns. Additional information was revealed in a report by the Joint Committee on Taxation.
The Tax Cuts and Jobs Act was signed into law on December 22, 2017. In honor of its birth five whole years ago, we talk with the American Enterprise Institute's Kyle Pomerleau, who had a front row seat to the passage of the TCJA.
Scott and Jeff chat with Daniel Hemel, Law Professor at New York University about the recently enacted excise tax on share repurchases or buybacks. Daniel has thought and written about buybacks, for example, here.
We discuss buybacks, dividends, and why both progressives and conservatives might be in favor of a tax on buybacks.
Scott and Jeff discuss the effect of capital gains taxes on stock prices with Douglas A. Shackelford, former Dean of UNC's Kenan-Flagler Business School. If the capital gains tax rate increases, should stock prices go up, down, or stay the same? Its much more complicated than you might think!
Todd Castagno, an equity research analyst at Morgan Stanley, responds to a list of possible ways corporations might react to the tax on book income recently passed as part of the Inflation Reduction Act.
Scott and Jeff talk about Tax Foundation with CEO and President Daniel Bunn. We talk about its missions, where it gets funding, and other tax-related issues. We discuss the pro-growth agenda of the Tax Foundation and note that there could be other legitimate objective functions for a think tank.
Tax Chats is officially one year old! In honor of this anniversery, Scott and Jeff talk through a potential rebranding of Tax Chats with a different name, then go on to discuss two tax headlines. First, they discuss windfall profits taxes on oil companies, then talk about the disclosure of Donald Trump's tax returns.
Jeff also misuses the Spanish verb "recordar."
In this episode Scott and Jeff discuss Sales Taxes with Whitney Afonso. We discuss sales tax basics, including the difference between who remits the tax and who bears the burden of the tax. We discuss the purposes of sales taxes. We discuss the regressivity of sales taxes. And we discuss how even Fancy Nancy had to deal with the unexpected pain of sales taxes in Shoe-la-la!
In this episode we talk about the tax consequences of student loan forgiveness. Generally, debt forgiveness is treated as income, and is therefore taxable. If the Biden Administration's current plan to forgive portions of student loans comes to fruition, the forgiven amount would normally be taxable. Provisions have been made to make student loan forgiveness tax free at the federal level. Some states, including North Carolina, would still treat the loan forgiveness as taxable, and borrowers would owe state taxes on the forgiven amounts. We discuss that issue, along with other issues related to taxes and higher education in North Carolina, along with the general business climate and taxation in the state of North Carolina with Senator Phil Berger, President Pro Tempore of the NC Senate.
Scott and Jeff discuss recent headlines from the New York Times:
Opinion | There Is a Tax That Could Help With Inflation - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
The Purpose of Extra-Large Marshmallows? A U.K. Court Weighs In. - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Lawsuit Seeks to Block Biden’s Student Debt Cancellation Plan - The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Scott and Jeff discuss several people Jeff has invited to be on the show, but who have (as of yet!) been unable to make a Tax Chats appearance. Scott guesses why Jeff invited each person to be on Tax Chats. The "John Edwards Tax Shelter", gas taxes and electric vehicles, soda taxes, and taxing assault rifles are all briefly discussed.
Scott and Jeff discuss Pillar 1 of the OECD's Inclusive Framework with Heydon Wardell Burrus of the Centre for Business Taxation at Oxford University.
Scott and Jeff chat with Larry Zelenak, Professor at the Duke Law School about taxes in sitcoms. Larry has documented the extensive list of episodes that use the federal income tax as a major component of the plot. His work documenting these facts can be found in these two articles:
"Six Decades of the Federal Income Tax in Sitcoms"
"Seven-Plus Decades of the Federal Income Tax in Sitcoms: An Update"
In the episode, we refer most frequently to three episodes:
3Rd Rock From the Sun, Season 4, Episode 12 "Dick and Taxes"
Roseanne, Season 2, Episode 22 "April Fool's Day"
The Simpsons, Season 9: Episode 20 "The Trouble with Trillions"
In this episode, Scott and Jeff discuss the some of the fascinating details related to the taxation of tobacco. We often think of the tax system as a tool to raise revenue. But the tax system is also used to encourage or discourage behavior. Taxing tobacco is one example of this type of tax, but the existence of the tax creates many strange incentives that affect the way people behave, including, counterintuitively, smoking more under some circumstances.
Jeff quizzes Scott about the tax status of the Royal Family in England.
Long live the Queen.
Despite our best efforts to inform the world about the perils of taxing financial statement income, the Corporate Alternative Minimum Tax based on financial accounting income passed as part of the Inflation Reduction Act. Jeff and Scott discuss the adjustments to financial accounting income that are part of the act, and describe how these adjustments will result in a situation where some firms will report high profits to shareholders and low or no tax, despite the minimum tax.
Scott and Jeff discuss a program called Tax Inspectors Without Borders with Rusudan Kemularia, Head of Tax Inspectors Without Borders. The program is part of the OECD and is connected with the OECD's BEPS as part of an effort to help provide developing countries with the tools necessary to enforce tax laws in the complex international tax arena.
Jeff and Scott discuss some interesting tax-related observations Jeff made while visiting Oxford University and Mannheim University in England and Germany.
Scott and Jeff discuss the $80 billion in additional funding that has been allocated to the IRS as part of the Inflation Reduction Act, or IRA. They also discuss the fact that the IRS owns and uses a variety of guns, ammunition, etc. They break down some of the fear-mongering headlines that have recently been in the press.
In this special episode, we compile several recordings that we have made over the past year related to the proposed alternative minimum tax on financial accounting earnings. The recordings are very much related to two op-ed articles Scott published in the Wall Street Journal, found here:
Don’t Let Warren Politicize Accounting - WSJ
Elizabeth Warren’s War on Accounting - WSJ
Jeff has also written on the topic, including this letter to congress and an accompanying WSJ article that goes along with it:
Letter to Congress
Accounting Experts Ask Congress to Change Proposal on Minimum Corporate Tax - WSJ
This episode is longer than usual, but we believe the information is worth consuming.
Scott and Jeff discuss "carried interest" with Vic Fleischer, Professor of Law at UC Irvine. Carried interest is a special type of income that is taxed at favored capital gains tax rates, and is often associated with high earning individuals who manage private equity partnerships. One prominent example of someone who had significant income from carried interest was former presidential candidate Mitt Romney.
Scott and Jeff learn from Ashley Jackson how the Taliban create a tax. We discuss how the tax system evolved initially to generate revenue to fund the Taliban objectives, until it became a symbol of its legitimacy. We talk about how the tax system evolved from a system of forced extractions to the point where customer support numbers became available to report mistreatment.
Scott and Jeff discuss the creation of schedule M3 with Lillian Mills, Dean of the McCombs School of Business at the University of Texas at Austin. Lil was instrumental in the creation of schedule M-3, which is form filed with the IRS that reconciles taxable income to financial accounting income. We talk about the opportunities that exist for academics, policymakers, and regulators to work together, and the unique environment that led to the creation of the M3. We also discuss some recent policy proposals that would impose tax on financial accounting income.
Scott and Jeff discuss the tax status of churches in the U.S. with Lloyd Mayer, Professor of Law at Notre Dame University. We discuss the basics of tax law as it pertains to Churches. We also discuss special tax benefits that apply to ministers and other church employees. We consider the tradeoffs that exist between providing churches with tax benefits and relying on them to provide certain types of public goods and services vs taxing churches and relying on the government to provide those goods and services.
Scott and Jeff ask Andy Grewal to describe administrative law, and why it is so important for taxes. We discuss how significant portions of tax laws are left to interpretation by the IRS or Treasury, and how these interpretations can have a material effect on the experience of taxpayers.
Scott and Jeff discuss income shifting by multinational corporations with Jennifer Blouin. We talk about Jennifer's research that suggests some estimates of the amount of tax revenue the U.S. loses to income shifting are as much as ten times too large. These estimates are important because they drive policy discussions, including debates in the U.S. about tax reform, and abroad, through the OECD and other organizations. The conversation builds on some of Jennifer's recent work related to income shifting, including a paper entitled "Double Counting Accounting: How Much Profit of Multinational Enterprises Is Really in Tax Havens?" available here: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3491451.
Scott and Jeff discuss the effect of taxes on the economy with Professor Arthur Laffer, often credited with the Laffer Curve, and a famous story of drawing the curve on a napkin. We ask Professor Laffer about the Laffer Curve, we get his opinion on the revenue maximizing tax rate, and his opinion on the effect of taxes on the economy.
Scott and Jeff are joined by Rita de la Feria @delaFeriaR to discuss her new paper (co-authored with Maria Amparo Grau Ruiz) called "Taxing Robots". The abstract of her paper reads in part:
"In recent years, the idea of taxing robots has been progressively gaining momentum. The potential impact of automation on employment, and consequently on income tax revenues, has led many to defend the introduction of a tax on robots, or on the use of robots, to either compensate for the potential revenue loss, or to slow down the process of automation. This paper argues that whilst automation presents significant challenges to tax systems, the introduction of a new tax on robots –or on their use– is not an effective mechanism through which to address these challenges."
We discuss the idea of taxing robots, whether the tax is different from a tax on other types of capital investment, the behavioral motivations for a desire to tax robots, and other issues.
Scott and Jeff discuss whether the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) was effective. Often referred to as the Trump tax cuts, or the Trump Tax Reform, recent commentators have argued that it was highly effective. For example, Tyler Goodspeed and Kevin Hassett argued in the Wall Street Journal the TCJA "delivered as promised" by increasing investment, wages, and government revenues. Academic research, however, paints a more nuanced picture. Jeff keeps a list of academic studies that evaluate different aspects of the TCJA on the UNC Tax Center website called The TCJA Effects Tracker. We discuss why articles in the popular press that claim victory or defeat are almost always oversimplified.
Scott, Jeff, and Paul Kiel discuss the series of articles published by ProPublica based on a massive leak of private tax return data on the wealthiest individuals in the United States. The series of articles can be found here: https://www.propublica.org/series/the-secret-irs-files.
We ask about privacy, transparency, tone, influence, leaked data, and more.
Jeff explains why quarters have ridges, and what it has to do with taxes and inflation.
Scott and Jeff discuss the idea of carryover basis with Kathleen Thomas. Currently, when someone dies with appreciated capital gains, they get a step-up in basis, meaning their estate pays no taxes on their accumulated gains. The downside is they have to die. An alternative would be to carryover the basis the the person who died had, which would make many tax planning strategies more difficult.
Scott and Jeff discuss Biden's proposed Mega Millionaire Minimum Tax with David Gamage, one of the thought-leaders behind the proposal and its variations. We discuss the basics of what the minimum tax might look like. We discuss the strengths and weaknesses of this type of tax. The tax is intended to force very wealthy individuals like Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg to pay more tax, even if they do not have much income as currently the tax code currently defines income. We also discuss the idea of "notional equity" as a way for the government to strengthen its taxing authority.
Scott and Jeff discuss progressive taxation. While most agree progressive taxation is desirable, there is less agreement about how much progressivity is desirable, what it even is, and if our current tax system is progressive. Scott and Jeff tackle these issues by asking each other questions about taxes on income, property taxes, taxes on cigarettes, and other scenarios. They conclude that progressivity is a slippery subject, and, claims about progressivity should be carefully considered.
Scott and Jeff discuss the reasons a corporate tax makes sense. The answers might surprise you. Among the least compelling arguments: corporations have a lot of income, corporations use infrastructure, corporations have special legal status. Among the most compelling arguments: corporations make efficient collection agents, corporations have cash, and taxing corporations allows the government to see what they are up to.
Scott and Jeff discuss Crypto taxes with Tyler Menzer, PhD student at the University of Iowa studying the tax implications of Crypto currency in the marketplace. We briefly discuss some of the basics, but, also discuss slightly more complicated crypto issues like airdrops and staking.
Scott and Jeff talk with Rich Prisinzano of the Penn Wharton Budget Model about revenue scoring. Scott, Jeff and Rich discuss topics such as how precise revenue scores are, how private revenue scores are different from those provided by the government, how politicians might use private revenue scorers to get the best "price" for a piece of tax legislation, etc. They end with how Rich would think through scoring a hypothetical (and fictional!) tax proposal, the "Dividend Cut Tax".
Scott and Jeff discuss tax justice with Amy Hanauer, Executive Director of Citizens for Tax Justice and its sister organization, ITEP (Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy). We ask Amy what a fair tax system would look like. We discuss problems with the current tax system. We touch on methods the government uses to redistribute income, like the earned income tax credit and the child tax credit. We briefly discuss corporate taxes, and Amy shares her view that corporations do not pay enough taxes.
Jeff explains how some non-profits owe income taxes on the unrelated business income, but, how because of the mission of the Girls Scouts, they don't pay taxes on the proceeds from the cookies sales.
In this episode, Scott and Jeff discuss why financial accounting rules and tax accounting rules are different. They give some examples. They talk about some firms that have reported very high income while also paying very low taxes. They also talk about how the opposite happens, but doesn't get much media attention.
Scott and Jeff discuss Cannabis taxation with economist Caroline Weber. We chat about the history of cannabis taxation, the advantage of legalizing cannabis to make it easier to tax, the use of taxes to set a price floor, and other issues related to cannabis taxation. We also discuss whether the taxes collected from Cannabis production and sales are used to remedy some of the social ills that might arise from widespread cannabis use.
Scott and Jeff interview Grover Norquist, president of Americans for Tax Reform (ATR). We discuss the Taxpayer Protection Pledge, which has been signed by many national and state-level politicians, including past presidents, many senators, sitting governors, and others. The signing is mostly partisan, with Republicans mostly signing, and Democrats rarely signing.
Grover Norquist discusses his views on taxes and government, and argues that there is never a good reason to increase income tax collections.
Grover Norquist describes how he believes raising taxes can lead to political trouble for Republican politicians.
Scott and Jeff discuss tax boycotts. Some corporate mangers say they are careful with their tax planning because they don't want to make their customers mad--customers might not buy things from a company they perceive as overly aggressive with their taxes. In this episode, Scott and Jeff discuss a recent study by Jeff and co-authors Scott Asay (U Iowa), Jake Thornock (Brigham Young University), and Jaron Wilde (U Iowa) called "Tax Boycotts". We describe how the scorn of consumers might harm corporations that avoid taxes. Jeff and co-authors searched high and low for evidence of consumer boycotts related to tax avoidance and were unable to find any evidence. The conclusion is that, although managers might perceive one cost of tax planning is the potential for consumer boycotts, in fact the costs rarely materialize.
Scott and Jeff talk with Ken Kies about TRA86, the last major tax reform since the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Ken was the Chief Republican Tax Counsel of the House Ways and Means Committee during the process of passing TRA86. How bipartisan was the TRA86? Was Ronald Reagan involved in the details? How much did the lobbyists matter? This episode gets into the details of TRA86 from someone who was on the front lines of tax reform when it happened.
Scott and Jeff interview Lincoln Rice, Coordinator of the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee, a group which would have you ask yourself "are you praying for peace, but paying for war?" We learn what it means to be a War Tax Resister. We discuss the risks, if any, of not paying taxes, and how the tax system is used by some as a tool for voicing opposition to government policies.
Capital Gains Sea Shanty
Sung by Dyreng's Deductions
Lyrics by Jeff Hoopes
There once was a man who bought some stock
In a little firm they call gamestop
The price went up so he sold his shares
Sittin on his gains so unaware
Then, oh, the taxman come
To tax his gains and stop his fun
Oh, when, the taxin’ is done
He’ll have some pennies and change
So what could you do to stop the pain?
To keep the taxman from your gains?
To keep the tax from being incurred
The best way is to just defer
Then, oh, the taxman come
To tax his gains and stop his fun
Oh, when, the taxin’ is done
He’ll have some pennies and change
Deferrals not the only game in town
To save your money just share it around
To spare your gains from a high tax rate
You just need to donate
Then, oh, the taxman come
To tax his gains and stop his fun
Oh, when, the taxin’ is done
He’ll have some pennies and change
Ooooohhhhh
Ooooohhhh
Oooooohhhh
Oooohhhh
Chorus Ooooohhh
Chorus Ooooohhh
Chorus Ooooohhh
Chorus Ooooohhh
Another trick to save tax costs
Is to harvest your loss stocks
Sell as many as you have in gains
To save yourself from taxman pains
Then, oh, the taxman come
To tax his gains and stop his fun
Oh, when, the taxin’ is done
He’ll have some pennies and change
If you defer your gains so well
Because you’re dead as a doornail
You’re dead but your estates got luck
Because your basis gets stepped up
Then, oh, the taxman come
To tax your gains and stop your fun
Oh, when, the taxin’ is done
You’ll have some pennies and change
Oh, when, the taxin’ is done
You’ll have some pennies and change
Scott explains the step-up in basis loophole. He describes how it can help you pass your wealth to your heirs tax efficiently.
Are big countries bullying developing countries under the guise of the OECD's Inclusive Framework? It the framework really inclusive, or is it really an exclusive club of rich countries looking out for themselves? Jeff and Scott discuss these issues with Afton Titus who gives the African perspective.
Jeff talks about the relationship between taxes and inflation, and, introduces us to the term seigniorage.
Martin Luther King Jr. is the only person to have ever been tried for perjury with regards to state income taxes in Alabama. Jeff and Scott interview Edgar Dyer about the tax perjury trial of Martin Luther King Jr. in 1960. Eddie wrote an article entitled "A Triumph of Justice in Alabama: The 1960 Perjury Trial of Martin Luther King, Jr."
Fred Grey, Martin Luther King's attorney, said of the trial, "No one would have predicted that an all-white jury in Montgomery, Alabama, the Cradle of the Confederacy, in May 1960, in the middle of all the sit-ins and all of the racial tension that was going on, would exonerate Martin Luther King, Jr. But it really happened." Coretta Scott King said of the trial, "A southern jury of twelve white men had acquitted Martin. It was a triumph of justice, a miracle that restored your faith in human good." Dr. King said it was a "turning point" in his life. Tune in to hear about this triumphal tax trial, which was a turning point for Martin Luther King.
Scott and Jeff discuss the principle of realization. As a general rule, most income taxes are levied when it is realized, usually when a transaction takes place. For example, gains in shares held as an investment are not taxed unless those shares are sold. The principle of realization also manifests itself in a variety of interesting ways, which we discuss in this episode.
Taxes Taxes, Where's my Refund
**Taxes Taxes
Where’s my refund?
Taxes Taxes
I’m so angry
Cuz I paid too much
and April is so far away (far away)
Taxes Taxes
Where’s my refund?
Taxes Taxes
Give me what is due
Cause I need money
Help me pay my debts**
I know I’ve claimed some things
That might not be legit
My daughter’s wedding costs
The dog food that I bought
But I have paid so much
I feel no guilt at all
My friends say I’ve lost touch
And some are just appalled
Taxes Taxes
Where’s my refund
Taxes Taxes
What is that you say?
You work for who?
The I R S?
Get out of my house!
I hate taxes
Scott discusses one of the factors contributing to whether you should invest in a Roth IRA or a Traditional IRA.
Scott and Jeff welcome Brian Galle, Professor of Law at Georgetown University to discuss the proposed Billionaires' Income Tax, which is a tax on unrealized capital gains. Brian and 218 other law professors and economists recently sent a letter to Congress in favor of the proposal. The letter can be found here. We discuss how the tax is being positioned as being different from a wealth tax. We question whether the tax might eventually be expanded to everyone, not just billionaires.
Jeff describes how knowing how many billionaires there are and how much wealth they have, a key component to estimating how much revenue many new taxes that target the ultra-rich would bring in, is more complex than you might think.
Jeff talks with Scott about a few of The Tax Museum's thousands of items. Jeff shows Scott a stack of expired lotto tickets purchased on EBAY and describes what they have to do with tax fraud. They discuss some old revenue stamps, an actual stamp from Burkina Faso, and other items that have amazing connections with taxes.
Lyrics by Scott Dyreng
Sung by Scott Dyreng and Three of Dyreng's Deductions
Lyrics
Tax Advice, Tax Advice
So many options confuse me.
Roth I R A
401-K
Which is the one that best suits me?
Pay my tax now or pay when I am old
Maybe not pay forever
Tax Advice, Tax Advice
Help me choose which is better
Pay the Price, For the Advice
That will help me choose wisely.
L L P?
S-Corp or C?
Which is the one that best suits me?
Pay the tax twice or pay only one time?
Claim QBI deductions
Pay the Price, For the Advice
That will help me choose wisely!
Scott and Jeff are joined by Brian Mittendorf from THE Ohio State University to discuss not-for-profit entities. We discuss the recent creation of Horns with Heart, a not-for-profit entity recently created to pursue charitable causes using the Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) of offensive lineman for the University of Texas football team. If this arrangement proves to be legitimate, not-for-profit entities could proliferate as a way to facilitate NIL deals and pay college football players, while allowing donors to make tax deductible contributions to their favorite football players.
Jeff describes what taxes have to do with Christmas. Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem to be taxed (or maybe to be counted, so they could be taxed).
Away to pay Taxes (to the tune of Away in the Manger)
Lyrics by Jeff Hoopes, Sung by Stacey Hoopes
Oh Joseph and Mary
They were there for a task
They came to the city
To pay their tax
But as they remitted
The tax on their worth
Oh Mary, a virgin
She had to give birth
They went to the city
By Caesar’s decree
As taxes touched Joseph
They affect you and me
When we give birth
and when we die
How much we work
And what car we buy
For every decision
We weigh how we act
By counting the cost
And we do it post-tax
The pros and the cons
In dollars and cents
We consider the taxes
Before we commence
Scott and Jeff discuss the OECD's Base Erosion and Profit Shifting (BEPS) project with Tom Neubig, a former Economist with the OECD. We answer basic questions about the OECD, BEPS, Pillar One and Pillar Two, which includes the proposed global minimum tax. The project is designed to stop the "race to the bottom" and to prevent large multinational companies from shifting their income to low-tax jurisdictions like tax havens. We also briefly discuss how country by country reporting will help with analysis after implementation.
In a recent episode of Tax Chats, Scott and Jeff had a little disagreement over a potential downside of tax loss harvesting. In this short, Jeff summarizes his argument that in tax loss harvesting, you should not delude yourself into thinking there is something special about the stock you hold. You should not decide not to tax loss harvest because you might miss out on a stock going up in value--don't have tax loss harvesting FOMO.
Jeff and Scott discuss how to legally reduce or avoid paying capital gains taxes. We use Satya Nadella's recent sale of half his stake in Microsoft as an example. To reduce the capital gains tax burden, one can:
- Change the timing of capital gain income
- sell before a new tax is imposed, or after an old tax is retired
- wait to sell until capital gain becomes "long term," currently after 1 year
- wait to sell to take advantage of the power of deferral
- Examples
- https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.17310/ntj.2015.3.02
- https://tax.unc.edu/index.php/news-media/should-you-sell-stock-before-president-biden-raises-the-capital-gains-tax-rate/
- Change jurisdictions
- Move to Texas, Florida, Wyoming, etc.
- Hold until death to take advantage of the "step-up" in basis.
- Inheritance, Estates and the Step-Up in Basis Rule - WSJ
- Donate appreciated assets to charity
- Charity gets assets at their fair market value
- Donor does not pay capital gains tax
- Donor gets charitable contribution deduction for full market value if itemizes on personal tax return
- Tax loss harvesting
- Sell assets that have losses to offset assets that have gains.
- Invest in Opportunity zones
Jeff explains how it should never be the goal to pay nothing in taxes, but, rather, as far as your financial life goes, to maximize your after-tax income.
Scott discusses whether domestic companies pay more tax than multinational companies. The episode addresses a commonly held belief that domestic firms are at a tax-based cost disadvantage. An example would be this Op-Ed, published by Bloomberg.
We discuss "scoring" with Brigham Young University Professor John Barrick. Scoring is the process used to determine how much revenue a tax bill will generate, or how much revenue a spending bill will consume. Scoring is a major part of every tax bill, including the Biden's Build Back Better plan. For example, the most current scoring of the BBB can be found here.
More information can be found here:
jct.gov
https://www.jct.gov/operations/frequently-asked-questions/
https://www.cbo.gov/about/products/ce-faq
Clarification: One listener emailed and let us know that in the episode, there is a reference that some may interpret as scoring including behavioral effects only since 2003. To be clear, behavioral effects have always been taken into account in JCT scores.
Scott discusses the common narrative that most large publicly traded companies pay very low or no income tax.
Jeff talks about fair taxes. People always say they want a fair tax system, or that they want people to pay their fair share. What would a fair tax system look like?
Jeff and Scott discuss a recent report released by Senator Elizabeth Warren's office entitled "Tax Dodgers: How Billionaire Corporations Avoid Paying Taxes and How to Fix It" available here.
We discuss the weaknesses in the report, including the language to describe tax avoidance, and the facts underlying the data in the report. We describe how the report does not appear to provide many insights, but instead appears designed to incite anger against large profitable corporations.
Scott discusses how much tax millionaires pay. Millionaires and Billionaires are often used in the same way to describe someone who is rich. But the taxes levied on the typical millionaire are vastly different than the taxes levied on many Billionaires.
Jeff discusses wealth and income tax rates. We are used to thinking of tax rates on income. How do we think about tax rates on wealth? Luckily, there is an easy way to convert a wealth tax rate into an income tax rate, and, the result may surprise you.
We discuss tax issues related to stock options. The discussion is related to Elon Musk's recent infamous twitter poll, in which he asked his followers if he should sell some of his shares in Tesla. Scott buys an option in real time. Related articles are found here:
- CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/07/elon-musk-faces-a-15-billion-tax-bill-which-is-likely-the-real-reason-hes-selling-stock.html
- Fortune: https://fortune.com/2021/11/10/tesla-elon-musk-stock-options-tax-mistake/
- Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/teslas-musk-says-stock-sale-impact-closer-tax-maximization-2021-11-14/
Jeff describes why many billionaires don't pay any tax (or at least pay rates of tax that are far lower than millionaires). He discusses the idea of unrealized gains.
Scott explains why companies have two separate accounting systems, one for reporting income to shareholders (GAAP), and one for reporting income to the IRS. He describes some pros and cons to taxing GAAP, as has been proposed by Joe Biden, Elizabeth Warren, and others.
We discuss some of the not-so-talked-about provisions in the Build Back Better tax plan, including (but not limited to) tax credits for journalists and ebikes, credits for electric vehicles, and some of the complications that arise when trying to provide tax incentives only under specific circumstances. We discuss tax credits, refundable credits, phase outs, tax incidence, and more.
Jeff briefly discusses how much tax a socially responsible firm should pay. He explains that a dollar of tax paid might translate to one fewer dollar used for other socially responsible objectives.
Scott describes how Salesforce.com used tax deductions from share-based compensation to reduce its U.S. tax bill to $0 despite reporting billions in profits to shareholders.
We discuss the recently proposed 15% corporate minimum tax to be applied to financial accounting earnings. The idea was proposed by Senator Elizabeth Warren in 2019. At that time, we wrote several articles that were published in by various media outlets:
WSJ: https://www.wsj.com/articles/dont-let-warren-politicize-accounting-11557089967
The Hill: https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/439693-warrens-corporate-tax-solution-is-fundamentally-flawed
A few months later, 11 Senators wrote a letter to the FASB in favor of an accounting change that would improve tax enforcement. We wrote a letter to the FASB urging them to disregard any arguments for financial accounting changes that serve the objective of tax enforcement (the tax code can do this instead). The letters can be found on the last two links here: https://www.fasb.org/jsp/FASB/CommentLetter_C/CommentLetterPage&cid=1218220137090&project_id=2019-500
We discuss the recent proposal for a billionaire's tax. We describe the tax, discuss how it could force the very rich to pay more in tax, and the possible complications of such a tax.
We discuss the recently proposed removal of the federal tax deduction for state and local taxes. The restriction would largely benefit wealthy or high-income taxpayers in states with relatively high tax rates (California, New York, etc.)
More information can be found at www.taxchats.org