Podcast - The Humanity Archive: Recent Episodes
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The title of history's wealthiest person isn't claimed easily. But in the 14th century, Mansa Musa wore that crown. As ruler of the Mali Empire, he controlled more gold than anyone in the world. And his 10,000-person pilgrimage to Mecca was about to put Mali on the map – and change the course of history, forever.
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A black woman's pen ignites a firestorm, exposing the savage reality of racial terror in America. Ida B. Wells Barnett risks everything to unmask the brutal lie behind lynching, facing death threats and destruction. Will her relentless pursuit of justice prevail against a nation's darkest secret?
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Uncover the chilling secrets of COINTELPRO, the FBI's covert operation to crush civil rights movements and silence dissent. Hear the gripping story of ordinary citizens who risked it all to expose this war on activism, challenging us to rethink the balance between national security and civil liberties.
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Listen on Your Favorite Platform:APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEForgotten graves whisper secrets of America's shame. We dig deep into a history some would rather keep buried, exposing how the treatment of the dead reveals truths about the living. From slave graveyards to modern injustice, this journey will make you question everything you thought you knew about our nation's soul. We uncover stark inequalities in burial practices, confront the erasure of Black lives, and challenge ourselves to honor forgotten legacies. This isn't just about the past - it's a mirror reflecting our present and shaping our future.
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Uncover the shocking truth about America's first permanent English settlement. From cannibalism to the birth of institutional racism, this episode of Jamestown's dark history will challenge everything you thought you knew about the founding of the United States.
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Thank you to everyone who makes this podcast a possibile. I could never do this without your support! :)
PATREON
Forgotten graves whisper secrets of America's shame. We dig deep into a history some would rather keep buried, exposing how the treatment of the dead reveals truths about the living. From slave graveyards to modern injustice, this journey will make you question everything you thought you knew about our nation's soul.
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Listen on Your Favorit Platform:APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEPresident Eisenhower's chilling farewell address exposed the military-industrial complex. A sinister fusion of military might and corporate greed that devours trillions, perpetuates endless wars, and erodes our democracy. America pours vast resources into a bloated war machine, outspending the next 10 countries combined, maintaining bases in regions with no clear threat, while our communities starve for investment in education, healthcare, and infrastructure. The cost, paid in dollars and human lives, is staggering. We must confront this shadowy nexus of power head-on, prioritize peace over profit, insist on robust democratic oversight, and redefine national security in terms of the well-being of our citizens, not the size of our arsenals.
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with David Zucchino
**APPLE PODCASTS** **|** **SPOTIFY** **|** **YOUTUBE**Jermaine sits down with David Zucchino, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, to uncover the hidden narratives of American history. Zucchino exposes the white supremacist coup of 1898 and the media’s role in perpetuating systemic racism. Their discussion challenges us to confront uncomfortable truths and recognize the enduring impact of these buried stories.
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SummaryDavid Zucchino, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and author, discusses his book 'Wilmington's Lie: The Murderous Coup of 1898 and the Rise of White Supremacy.' He shares his experiences as a storyteller and journalist, highlighting the importance of telling stories through the eyes of everyday people affected by major events.
Zucchino reflects on his coverage of wars and conflicts around the world and the impact these experiences have had on him. He delves into the history of Wilmington, North Carolina, in the late 19th century, where a white supremacist coup led to the overthrow of the elected government and the suppression of black citizens.
Zucchino explores the themes of racism, voter suppression, and the role of the media in perpetuating white supremacist ideologies. He draws parallels between the events of 1898 and the present-day political climate, emphasizing the ongoing struggle against white supremacy and the importance of understanding and confronting this history.
The Story Behind 'Wilmington's Lie'Exploring Wilmington, North Carolina, in 1898David Zucchino takes us back to Wilmington, North Carolina, in the late 19th century, where a violent white supremacist coup led to the overthrow of the elected government and the brutal suppression of black citizens. This dark chapter in American history is brought to life through Zucchino's meticulous research and compelling storytelling.
Themes and ReflectionsThe Enduring Legacy of Racism and Voter SuppressionZucchino explores the themes of racism and voter suppression, drawing stark parallels between the events of 1898 and today's political climate. He emphasizes the importance of understanding and confronting this history to better address the ongoing struggle against white supremacy.
The Role of the Media in Perpetuating IdeologiesIn this episode, Zucchino reflects on the significant role the media played in shaping public opinion during the Wilmington coup and its continued impact on perpetuating white supremacist ideologies. He highlights the responsibility of journalists to report truthfully and give voice to those often overlooked.
Personal Narratives: The Heart of StorytellingGiving Voice to the OverlookedZucchino discusses his experiences covering wars and conflicts around the world, emphasizing the importance of telling stories through the eyes of everyday people affected by these major events. He believes that personal narratives are a powerful way to convey the profound impact of historical events on individuals and communities.
Takeaways Power of Personal Narratives: Telling stories through personal perspectives powerfully conveys the impact of major events. * Journalistic Responsibility: Journalists must report on the experiences of those affected by war and conflict, giving voice to the overlooked. * Legacy of Wilmington Coup: The 1898 Wilmington coup highlights the enduring legacy of white supremacy and voter suppression in the U.S. * Media's Role*: The media significantly shapes public opinion and can perpetuate harmful ideologies, underscoring the need for responsible journalism.
- Podcast Episode Transcript Jermaine (00:01.442)
David Zucchino, you are here on the Humanity Archive podcast and you're a master storyteller, you're a Pulitzer Prize winner. You, to me, looking at your work, you bring a relentless pursuit of truth to journalism. You have a career that spans the globe. You've covered wars and conflicts and write for the New York Times. You teach journalism. You've crafted narratives that not only inform but also deeply move readers and your story really moved me.
And you know, you wrote this book, Wilmington's Lie, the Murderous Coop of 1898, and it came out in 2020 and it really blew me away. And for those listening, you haven't really read a history book until you've read Wilmington's Lie. So David, it's an honor to have you here on the podcast and get into your mind, your mental work. Welcome to the show.
David Zucchino (00:53.151)
Thank you, Jermaine. It's great to be with you.
Jermaine (00:56.158)
So just getting into this discussion and before we really get into the book, I want to know with a Pulitzer Prize and a career that's seen you reporting in over 30 countries, you've witnessed the spectrum of human experiences. Could you share with us how those experiences have shaped you as a writer and a storyteller?
David Zucchino (01:19.771)
I love to tell stories, I love talking to people. The great thing about journalism is it's just a license to drop into people's lives and start asking questions and amazingly people will respond. I'm always stunned. I go around the world and I meet people usually on the worst day of their lives when there's been some tragedy and they open up. People have a need to tell their story. They want their story told. They want to be validated.
I want to be that person that tells their story. What I really like to do in storytelling and in journalism is to take large events, large important world events, and tell them through the eyes of people on the ground. Not through politicians, through military leaders, or through institutions, but to everyday people who are directly affected by events. I think that's a really powerful way to tell stories. It's very human.
And you can just delve into people's lives. And as I said, I'm amazed people will open up to you because they want their stories told even on the worst days after they've experienced terrible trauma. There's this need for their story to be told.
Jermaine (02:34.022)
Absolutely. And I think that when we watch the news and we get stories, a lot of times it is from a level where it's top down, right? We're hearing about the facts, we're hearing numbers, but to really get into the lives of people, to get into their shoes, that's very important work and takes a certain amount of empathy too. Is this something that you've always been interested in? When did you find out that this is something that you wanted to do?
David Zucchino (03:00.643)
When I was in high school, a teacher suggested readings. And one of the readings she gave was a Hiroshima by John Hersey. And that was his account. He went in a year after the Hiroshima bombing and talked to the survivors and basically retold the story of the day from the moment the bomb hit Hiroshima through the lives of seven unrelated people who did not know each other.
But I thought it was an extremely powerful way to tell a story and I was really inspired by that. And from then on, I thought that is something I want to do. I wanted to become an international correspondent and it took a while. I worked at smaller papers and worked my way up. But that was my goal all along, just that need to tell people's stories.
Jermaine (03:49.214)
Yeah, reminds me of this Anais Nin quote. She said, we travel some of us forever to seek other states, to seek other lives and other souls. And that quote always struck a chord with me. It's kind of like you're peeling back the layers of the world's narrative, right? Through each journey, through each person you encounter. And being in journalism, you're observing and being a part of different realities. And
I think each story we dive into, each corner of the world we explore is not only a physical journey but it's an internal journey. We are unearthing these stories and we're reshaping our perspectives, we're challenging our beliefs and it's a reminder too of how interconnected we are. In understanding someone else's story it helps us understand our own. So I think that's fascinating work that you do. And I think that one thing I would like to know is...
in your journey as a journalist with the New York Times covering, you know, these wars and civil conflicts that you've covered. What have been some of the most impactful moments or stories that have really stuck with you over the years?
David Zucchino (05:00.223)
Oh, well, from Iraq and Afghanistan, it's just ordinary people caught up in war. Their lives just completely upended and changed forever. Telling those stories, I thought, really, really affected me. I still think about some of these people. I covered the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. And I have just powerful memories of...
getting in with the Libyan rebels and these were just ordinary people. They were students and lawyers and shopkeepers and taxi drivers who just stopped everything they were doing and started the revolution and picked up weapons uh... and basically overthrew a dictator and being with them you just felt their energy. They had been suppressed for forty years uh... they were not allowed any internet. They were obviously not allowed any weapons. This is the first time they'd seen weapons and touched weapons.
And just this rage surging through these people and this sense of an opportunity to change their lives in big ways just was a powerful thing to see. And I spent weeks with these guys going to the front. They were fighting a modern army, just a bunch of guys in pickup trucks and taxis with guns. So that was just one of the most memorable things I've done. Going in Chechnya.
with the Chechen rebels who were fighting the Russian government and these wars go back to the 1840s. Being with those people fighting, I mean, it was difficult. A lot of the Chechens had committed these terrorist acts against Russian civilians, but I went out with just, again, ordinary people who had taken up guns as part of this guerrilla army. They basically were taking time off for work, you know, to go fight the Russians.
another example of just people getting swept up by events larger than themselves and giving me an opportunity to tell these larger stories through the lives of ordinary people.
Jermaine (07:05.61)
Wow. And I mean, I'll think about how does that impact you on a personal level and even overcoming some of the fears too? I mean, you have this drive to tell the story and, you know, to present people's truths to the world, but you're in war zones, right? I mean, I mean, how close are you to the combat or bullets whizzing over your head at certain points? Or are you able to kind of get in and get out? Like, what does that look like on the ground in a situation like that?
David Zucchino (07:31.607)
You have to be willing to get in there. You can't tell the story with a phone call. I mean, you can, but that's not the way I want to tell my story. I want to be right there with them and describing what it's like to be in war. Now I do have the luxury of coming in and coming out. I'm not there for weeks at a time like these guys are. So it's limited. But I do put myself in the middle of it and I go where they go.
During the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, I embedded with the US military many, many times. When you're embedded, you go where they go and you do what they do. You do get involved in combat and you get right in the middle of it. It's exhilarating and terrifying at the same time. I'm sitting there and you're getting attacked and I'm saying, why am I here? Why am I here? Just get me out. I'll never come back. Of course, I always come back, but I would find myself in those situations where I swear I'm not going to do this again because it is terrifying. It's very frightening.
Jermaine (08:27.518)
Now I'm just curious what that looks, I mean, are you kind of taking it all in your head as you're there? Are you kind of like jotting down notes like on the spot as you're there? There's probably a lot of filming going on as well as part of this experience.
David Zucchino (08:41.083)
I often traveled with a photographer, which was great because they're very good journalists themselves and know how to report, know how to ask questions. So that took the pressure off for me to have it documented with film or video. So I was able to concentrate on telling the story and I concentrated on individual people and what they were doing, what they were feeling and I tried to talk to them as things were happening and just pay attention and watch how they react, watch how things affect them.
Definitely taking notes and trying to remember everything as clearly as possible and you know after battles or after these These shelling attacks and I would get my thoughts together and start to write the outlines of a story right there while it's fresh Well, you know, it just happened minutes ago and while I have the people there to talk to you know to ask them You know, what were you thinking at this moment? What was your goal? I mean what motivated you a million questions?
And soldiers, again, they want their story told. They're out there, they're suffering, they're committed to a cause, and they really appreciate that. Many, many people thank me for telling their stories. They appreciate the fact that somebody is telling their story to the world. It really validates it.
Jermaine (09:52.394)
And it sounds to me that I'm sensing this journalistic integrity coming through because you're really focused a lot on the other person, what they have to say, what they felt. How do you handle when you have two conflicting narratives and keep that same integrity? You know, if you're getting both sides of an issue, what does that look like when you're when you're writing a story? I wonder.
David Zucchino (10:13.639)
It can be difficult and awkward. I'll give you one example. When I covered the invasion of Iraq, I went with the unit that crashed into Baghdad and into the war basically by taking the palaces and taking downtown. But they started going through Saddam Hussein's complex where the top leadership was and they came across almost 800 million dollars in cash.
Some of these guys couldn't resist it and they took the money and I knew it and I had to report it. And I knew these guys, I'd spent time with them. I really didn't want to ruin their lives, but it was my responsibility to tell the whole story, the good and the bad. So I did write about it and they got very upset. The commander got very upset with me and I said, listen, this is what I do and I mean it's not all, you know, great positive news. I'm going to tell everything and I did.
Jermaine (11:10.462)
And that's where that integrity comes in, even in the face of backlash, even in the face of anger or vitriol. I mean, that's where that integrity comes in. And yeah, that's a fascinating story. I can't imagine being in that position and just what that all looked like. And now I want to get into this fascinating book that you wrote. I have the book here, Wilmington's Live, Pulitzer Prize winning work. And so we're
We're gonna go back in time and you could tell this better than I, but you know, we're in Wilmington, North Carolina. North Carolina's largest city, if I recall, in the 1890s, majority black city, successful black Americans, politicians, only a few decades removed from chattel slavery. So for someone who has never heard of this event before, can you first give us some context of reconstruction and the backdrop?
of this city and what was happening in America before we get into the events of 1898 in Wilmington, when all this hell breaks loose.
David Zucchino (12:16.859)
Yeah, the first thing you need to know is that this coup in 1898 was the only armed overthrow of an elected government in US history. It's the only time it's happened and that's just incredibly significant. At the same time, this is a story that was covered up and distorted for years. I mean, the Wilmington's Lie refers to the lie that the white supremacists built around...
these events but let me go back and start with Wilmington in 1898. I mean after the Civil War when black Americans were freed from slavery a lot of them gravitated to Wilmington because there were so many jobs available there. It was a big port, one of the biggest ports in America. It was the last Confederate port to fall during the war and once Wilmington fell the war was essentially over.
And there were jobs, there was railroad terminus there, there were jobs there, there were jobs in the fields and in farm work, there were jobs in the industry with pine, turpentine and pitch, you know, in these pine forests. So this large middle class community built up by 1898 where you had most of the restaurants, for example, in Wilmington were owned by black men, a lot of the barbershops were.
You had black doctors, black lawyers, black funeral directors, black teachers. The city was 58% black at a time when very, very few, and I think almost no major cities in the South were majority black, but Wilmington was. And as a result of complicated political events, black...
voters had aligned themselves with white Republicans and back then the Republicans were the party of Lincoln and the Democrats were the party of white supremacy. And they formed something called Fusion and they took control through an election of Wilmington's government and immediately the white conservatives, just as they do today, cried out that the election was a fraud and that it was stolen.
Jermaine (14:05.388)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (14:21.747)
But it did remain in power and white supremacists who had been in power from the beginning of Wilmington in the 1700s just were not going to let that stand because you had black men in positions of political power.
Three of the ten aldermen were black men. Ten of the 26 policemen were black men. They were black magistrates, which infuriated white conservatives because they had to go before a black magistrate. The postmaster was black, the superintendent of the streets, the treasurer, the county jailer, and the coroner. All these were black men. And this was highly unusual in the South. There really wasn't a comparable city throughout the South that
had black men in positions of authority, which just had never happened in the South before. I mean, you've got to remember, this is just two decades after Reconstruction. People still have family members, people still alive who were in slavery, and this was sort of the next generation. But black men had really created...
Jermaine (15:13.975)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (15:28.147)
amazingly productive and successful lives. And the other unusual thing about Wilmington is that it was somewhat integrated in the neighborhoods. You did have working class blacks and whites living in the same neighborhood, which is extremely unusual for the South at that time, and even today. So Wilmington really, really stood out. And what put it on the map was this concentrated, concerted, planned coup by the white leadership.
Jermaine (15:45.745)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (15:57.803)
by the white conservatives and white supremacists to take over Wilmington, to remove the government, and to find a way to keep black men from voting ever again from holding elected or appointed office. That was their clear goal. And they said this. They called themselves the white supremacy movement. That's what they called themselves. They printed a handbook, the white supremacist handbook. They were very, very open about what they planned to do. And they announced it.
to the world and of course this drew newspaper coverage from around the country to wellington because there was an election coming up in november and they had plotted to uh... build their coup right around the election they were going to steal the election which they did uh... they stuffed ballot boxes and they spent the summer sending out uh... vigilantes they called them red shirts and these were basically an outgrowth of the of the kkk and their job was to go through the
in fall of 1898 and to break into black homes at night and pull black men out and whip them and beat them and tell them they're going to come back and kill them if they registered to vote. So, it was really a strong campaign of intimidation to keep black men from voting and it succeeded very well and they stole the election in November of 1898 and then two days later they rose up and carried out this coup that they had been planning.
They sent their red shirts and other armed vigilantes out into the streets to kill black men They killed at least 60 black men that day They overthrew the government and installed themselves as mayor chief of police City councilmen all the jobs that black men had been Serving they threw them out They banished black and white leaders and drove More than 2,000 black people from their homes have left the city forever
and it became a white supremacist citadel. Today, Wilmington is 18% black. It was 56% black in 1898. And from that moment on, black citizens in North Carolina did not vote for at least another 60 years. Through poll taxes, literacy tests, GM Crow laws, and KKK intimidation, black people in North Carolina and throughout the South just did not vote after that.
David Zucchino (18:19.123)
In 1898, as I said, three of the ten city councilmen were black men, and another black man did not serve on the city council in Wilmington until 1972. So you see how effective this coup was. In 1898, there was exactly one black member of Congress in the Senate or the House in the entire country, and he was from North Carolina on a district outside Wilmington, and he was hounded by white conservatives and by white supremacists.
driven from office, he left the state of North Carolina, and from that moment on, no black person served in Congress from North Carolina until 1992, so it was almost 100 years late. So this was an incredibly effective.
Jermaine (18:59.392)
Hmm.
Jermaine (19:03.922)
Yeah, there was another case I've written about out of Florida where somebody was removed from office 1890 and then 1990 was the next time that a black representative Was was elected so you talk about history casting such a long shadow and just the utter Not only the devastation but the impact and how long this can last right and you talked about 18 from
David Zucchino (19:11.706)
Mm.
David Zucchino (19:22.013)
Yeah.
David Zucchino (19:29.995)
Yeah.
Jermaine (19:32.034)
from some 50%, right? I mean, driving people out, setting up this kind of citadel. And I think a lot about the Reconstruction era in the 1890s as this period in American history that often the whole Reconstruction era sometimes feels like a hidden chapter, you know, in American history. Like it's something that's not always talked about in textbooks and then you're in this era where people are kind of telling you like.
David Zucchino (19:50.464)
Yeah.
Jermaine (20:00.334)
there are white supremacist ideology. Do you think there's still a fear in talking about this? You're not even gonna find the word white supremacy in textbooks typically, you know, as this history is being told, why do you think that is? And why do you think there's such an aversion to telling these real stories in the national narrative? I mean, we have books like yours and a lot of books that come out of university presses and, you know, scholars are talking amongst themselves, but I don't think these conversations are happening so much in the general public and just really dealing
the harshness of this history.
David Zucchino (20:32.463)
Oh yeah, white supremacy runs through the history of this nation. I mean it.
that racism just permeates our society, from the moment of our founding. And it's not the only story, but it is a big part of the story. And it's a part of the story that really doesn't get told. History is told through whites, and it always has been. There are attempts now to correct that, but there are also reactions to it, like in Florida, where they're banning books and banning quote, critical race theory. But as far as white supremacists,
The term that journalism uses today is white nationalists. I think you're right that people are afraid to put that racism term out there. But they are white supremacists. It's clear from the language of Donald Trump and other conservatives that they believe there is one legitimate citizen in this country and he is a white Christian male. They're very clear about that. They're very clear about scapegoating.
Jermaine (21:12.375)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (21:37.157)
demonizing anyone who is considered an outsider such as black citizens, Muslims, gays, anyone who doesn't fit that profile is an enemy. And it's interesting when Donald Trump was claiming the 2020 election was stolen, the very precincts and the very areas that he targeted and specified as being these hotbeds of...
Cheating.
and ballot stuffing and election theft within black neighborhoods of Philadelphia, Detroit, and elsewhere. He really, really specified it. And these aren't just the hug whistles. He's coming out and saying it. So again, this is something that has run through our history forever and it still runs through our history today through the attempts by white conservative men to deny the vote to black people. It's very clear. There's no doubt about it.
Jermaine (22:20.014)
Hmm.
David Zucchino (22:36.985)
still going on, you know, 120 some years after the Wilmington Coup.
Jermaine (22:42.686)
And yeah, I think one thing that's important to note, and I kind of wanted to get your perspective on this is, I think there's a tendency to look at these as isolated events. You know, you have a massacre here, a race riot there, sometimes they're called. And how do people connect the dots to know? And I think some of that is connecting the dots past the present of what's happening. But why do you think there's a tendency for people to want to isolate these events as though they're not connected and as though this wasn't?
and still is operating as a system, right, as a connected system with these racist ideals and the past affects the present in so many ways. Like, how do people kind of broaden their perspective to see that?
David Zucchino (23:26.507)
I think you just have to go back and just remember that the fear of the black vote, the fear that instilled in white supremacists, and they realized it very quickly that if black men were, and only black men could vote at that time, black men were allowed to vote, they would be voted out of office and they would lose their power and privilege. So everything they did was focused on denying the vote to black citizens.
through today, through these gerrymandering and voter ID schemes that Republicans are pushing in North Carolina and throughout the country. It is just relentless, their attempts to keep black people away from the polls. I mean, the gerrymandering is obvious, and the courts have called them out. In North Carolina, the white...
conservative male republicans in the state legislature passed a voter ID law a few years back and it was thrown out by the federal courts who said that they targeted African Americans with surgical precision. It was very clear they were targeting African Americans to try to keep them away from the polls through these voter ID laws. And the same thing with the various gerrymandering schemes they've come up with in North Carolina and other states where they pack and crack.
black districts and then pack all the black citizens into one district to dilute their vote. The white conservatives did that and were successful before 1898 in Wilmington. There were two gerrymandered black wards where they took all the black citizens and blacks were the majority then and packed them into two wards to dilute their voting power and were successful until the election in 1896 that brought this fusion government in.
Jermaine (25:18.378)
Wow. So I mean, it's the same tactics and you know, I've read a lot about this and you know, you see it still today. And it's just wild to me that the same tactics are being used. And it's just right in front of our face in such a way to where it's like, how could people still get away with this? You know, and that only is able to happen because of the system is connected. The system is entrenched.
I think that that's something that people need to realize. And I want to go back to a point about the beginning of the Wilmington coup, and that is that didn't this start over this accusation of white chivalry, black men attacking a white woman, this kind of old idea of black men is brutish and some thing that needed to be protected against. Can you talk about the beginnings of this coup and kind of
how this started and what that looked like in terms of like this same thing happening over and over again. This idea of white chivalry and protecting white women from black men as an impetus for violence, you know, as justification for violence against black community.
David Zucchino (26:24.459)
Right.
David Zucchino (26:30.846)
Right.
Yeah, there were a number of big lies that were told by the white supremacy campaign during 1898. One of them was that black men were not smart enough or sophisticated enough or capable enough to be trusted with positions in government. And also that they couldn't be trusted. They would steal money. They were corrupt. And the other big lie was what they called, and this was the term they used, was the black beast rapist.
They claimed that there was a rape epidemic in North Carolina with black men raping white women and I went back and looked at the crime figures and there was no such thing. It didn't happen. But they had a newspaper propaganda campaign in which they looked for any story of contact between a black man and a white woman and played it up into an attack. And they portrayed black men as constantly preying on white women.
this an existential threat because they realized that if black men were put into positions of power, if they were educated, if they served in public office, well they might become rivals for the affections of white women and they were not going to let that happen. So it was more than just depriving black men of the right to vote, it was eliminating black men as threats to, what they perceived as threats to white women.
In August of 1898, Alex Manley, who was the editor of the black readership paper, the Wilmington Record, read a speech from a woman in Georgia who told men of Georgia to lynch a thousand times a week if necessary to end this so-called epidemic of rapes. And so he responded with an editorial pointing out what everybody knew but which nobody said that most of the black men, almost all of the black men,
Jermaine (28:19.772)
Hmm.
David Zucchino (28:32.191)
who were lynched for allegedly raping white women were in fact their consensual lovers. And he also wrote that white men from generations had been raping black women with impunity. And this editorial just reverberated throughout the South and the white leadership in Wilmington realized they had now hit on an issue where they could really galvanize white male voters and work on their resentments and hatreds even more.
had copies of the editorial reprinted and distributed throughout the state and it got distributed through the South. And in fact the red shirts when this the day the editorial came out the red shirts this vigilante KKK militia that was made up of white supremacists and run by the white supremacist leadership wanted to lynch Alexander Manley that day and to show you how premeditated this coup was the leadership said no that was too early we've got to wait till November and we can use this as an election issue and then I promise you we'll let you
lynch Alex Manley and burn down his paper. So they did wait. They did attempt to lynch Alex Manley. He escaped from Wilmington, but they did burn down the paper and that was the beginning of the day of the coup. That set off the coup, this rampage of murder and killing that lasted throughout the day.
Jermaine (29:40.974)
Hmm.
Jermaine (29:51.626)
Wow. And I'm really interested in like the resistance, right? And I know, excuse me, black people, you know, are outnumbered, but I have read, you know, the account of there was some resistance. Can you tell me what that looked like? I know there was maybe some black gun clubs going back into history. I mean, how, I mean, did black people fight back and did it just come down to a numbers game? You know, there was just too outnumbered. They couldn't, you know, muster that there's too many white people coming at them.
from one side to another, but can you tell me what that resistance looked like in that moment and just what the violence even looked like within the moment of the coup and when that actually happened?
David Zucchino (30:34.183)
Yeah, there was a history of armed black resistance in Wilmington. In 1868, the Klan rose up and tried to take over the city of Wilmington. This is three years after the war. A black man, a former slave named Abraham Galloway, organized a black militia. They didn't have weapons, but they had clubs. They just took any piece of wood and club that they could. When the Klan rose up...
This black militia fanned out through the city and intimidated the black and paid the KKK and drove them out of the city and they did not return until 1898 in the guise of red shirts. But by 1898, whites were arming themselves and the hardware stores, which is where you had to go to get a gun then, would only sell to white men. They would not sell guns to white men. So even though blacks had the numbers, it was 56% black.
Jermaine (31:23.822)
Bye.
David Zucchino (31:30.315)
But they had very few weapons. The only weapons they had available were weapons from the Civil War that this earlier generation of so-called colored soldiers who had fought in the war still had weapons. And there were a few shotguns and hunting rifles. But they really, really had very few weapons. And a few black men did rise up and try to resist. Three or four white men were shot that day and wounded. None of them were killed. So there was this limited resistance. But...
because the whites had been stockpiling weapons the whole summer. We're extremely heavily armed and well armed. And the black men just had so few weapons and were really defenseless. And almost all of the black men killed that day were unarmed, had no weapons. And most of them were just going back and forth to work. Weren't doing anything other than being black and walking down the street.
Jermaine (32:01.275)
Mm.
Jermaine (32:23.962)
Mm-hmm.
David Zucchino (32:24.331)
So again, there was a limited attempt at black resistance, but they were just overwhelmed.
Jermaine (32:30.962)
Yeah, that's very important to know. And you did talk about the higher black population. And I don't think a lot of people know the intricacies of it in terms of, there's so many nuances to the story as far as like when you think about what you can buy, what you can't buy and who's going to sell to you. And that also comes to protecting yourself, right? And I think that's a fascinating story when you talked about people who are just so fed up.
like they didn't even care, they just grabbed clubs or whatever they could find to drive out, you know, people who were oppressing them. And, but yeah, so that's definitely an interesting part of the story. And another thing that I thought about in terms of your research and writing and telling the story, were there any personal diaries or letters or firsthand accounts that may take us into this story a little bit further or deeper that might humanize the story more that really stood out to you?
David Zucchino (33:04.663)
Right.
Jermaine (33:31.138)
an individual or a perspective that you found in a first-hand account.
David Zucchino (33:35.615)
Yeah, this was an interesting situation. There was a lot of documentation on the white side because this white supremacy campaign was very open. They were very proud of it. After the coup and the massacre, there were letters and diaries and books and newspaper articles and magazine articles written by the white supremacists just celebrating their victory. So there was lots of stuff on the white side. There was less from the black side. As you can imagine, these people were beleaguered on the run.
Their men had been shot down in the streets, a newspaper had been burned. But there were accounts from black ministers and black lawyers that I found that were just fascinating, that told the story from the black point of view. The other interesting thing is the black press. Now, it would have been impossible for a black reporter to go to Wilmington at this time because he would have been murdered on site. But because...
more than two thousand black people fled Wilmington in the days and weeks after the coup and went to other cities, mostly in the south, the black newspapers there interviewed people and got their immediate contemporaneous accounts. And so that was really helpful in my research, getting these descriptions of what had happened only a few days after it had happened through these interviews in the black press. So between that and then the diaries and the books and the articles that black men had
had left behind, I got a pretty good understanding of what was happening in the black community and as I said, there was plenty on the white side since they were so open about it.
Jermaine (35:12.926)
Yeah, absolutely. Is there any account that you recall that really stands out to you from anyone or any story that you're just like, wow, like this perspective here is really gripping and just kind of adds a little different perspective. And I think that's interesting the point as far as how the media is used. And I want to come back to that. But as far as like just any story or anything you can remember.
David Zucchino (35:31.415)
Bye.
David Zucchino (35:38.483)
Yeah, there's a black lawyer, a prominent black lawyer named William Henderson, who had a successful black law practice, had a really nice home, lived there with his wife and three children. And on the day of the coup and the massacre, the night of it, he was visited home by this gang of redshirts who broke into the house and threatened him and his family and said he had 24 hours to leave town.
And then they did this to a lot of black leaders. They targeted black leaders. And it was called the banishment campaign that they had a name for. It was the banishment campaign and they had a list of people who were on it. And William Henderson was on it and he was given 24 hours to close down his law practice, to sell this house, to get on the train with his wife and kids through this howling mob of red shirts and whites screaming at him.
screaming at him and his wife and getting them on the train and they managed to get out of town safely and he started a really successful career in Indianapolis as a lawyer and civil rights leader. But he left behind a very detailed journal and his wife did as well. So through that I was really able to tell a very human and personal story. There was another man, Reverend William Kirk, who wrote a long account of trying to get his family out of Wilmington.
because he was also targeted because he was a prominent minister. And the story of him going through the swamps and being chased and getting on trains and getting his family out was just heart stopping. And it was a very good source for me because it was very detailed and it got into his head and his mind and what he was thinking and the fears that he felt for his family. Those are really two examples of strong stories that people left behind.
Jermaine (37:25.386)
Yeah, and I want to go back to the role of the media. And when we peel back the layers of American history, we see the media could be a massive machine of truth telling or a massive machine of propaganda. And the propaganda has been very glaring, especially when you think about cases like Wilmington. And, you know, these words that people print in newspapers can escalate to real life or death situations. So...
You know, in the context of your book, how critical would you say the media's influence was in staring the events of Wilmington and the coup?
David Zucchino (38:03.755)
It was central to the white supremacist efforts. They had a propaganda campaign through the newspapers, and one of the leaders of the whole coup attempt and the white supremacy movement was Josephus Daniels, the editor of the News and Observer in Raleigh, the biggest paper in the state. And they ran this campaign, as I mentioned earlier, against the Black Beast rapist and portraying black men in office as incapable and corrupt.
and overwhelmed and they just pounded on this theme throughout the summer and other white supremacist newspapers picked it up. There were three white supremacist newspapers in Wilmington and they just hammered this home and Josephus Daniels realized that almost 25% of white men, of white electorate was illiterate so he hired a political cartoonist to draw these just horrifying caricatures of black men as apes and beasts and monsters.
trying to, really chasing, they showed them with claws, chasing white, you know, white southern bells in these white dresses, being chased by these black men with these claws. I mean, these horrifically racist cartoons, but were incredibly affected in mobilizing, you know, the rage of white voters who had been told that these black men were illegitimate, they shouldn't have been in office, they should not be allowed to.
to hold public office and we need to drive them away and keep them from voting ever again. And that was the message through this propaganda effort. What was really interesting is the white northern press, which I had assumed might push back against this narrative that the whites were telling, but in fact they swallowed it whole.
when white newspapers from around the country, and this was such a big story, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Philadelphia Inquiry, the Chicago Tribune, all the big newspapers, the white papers of the day, sent their reporters down there. When they arrived in Wilmington at the train station, they were met by the white supremacist leadership and gave them cigars and whiskey and gave them places to stay. And they did what we today call embedded. They would take the reporters and take them out with the red shirts and fill them up with.
David Zucchino (40:14.963)
with the big lie that was being spread then that black men were stockpiling arms and were going to rise up during the election and kill white men, women and children, massacre them and take over the town. Which was a complete lie, as I said before, very few black men had guns but that was the story they spread and that was the story that was told to America by the white press. And they also spread the story.
that black men were ill-educated and ill-equipped to serve in office and were corrupt. They just spread this lie unquestionably and I was really surprised. I really thought someone in the Northern White press would actually tell the true story, but they just perpetuated the lie. They just enhanced it. So by the time of the massacre and the coup, there was very, very little sympathy in the country.
Jermaine (40:58.242)
Hmm.
David Zucchino (41:07.151)
for black men. There was a general agreement, yeah, well this had to be done. And that was the argument of the white supremacists. Well, we may have to kill some people, but we have got to stop what they called Negro domination. They said black men were taking over the country and we have to stop it. And that was the message that came from the white press.
Jermaine (41:27.05)
And I think about too, like the authoritarian nature of all this, because there's another newspaper with conflicting perspective couldn't exist, right? So it's not like people are getting their information from multiple sources and able to compare, contrast and critically think about the information they're getting to find the truth. These are one sources of information. They're all saying the same thing. So you can only imagine what this is doing to the minds of a, you know, just the average person.
David Zucchino (41:40.159)
Oh.
David Zucchino (41:53.224)
Yeah, the only other...
Jermaine (41:53.494)
You know, you grow up, you're white in the South, what other perspective do you have but this, right? Where else are you getting your information to, you know, conflict or control?
David Zucchino (42:00.399)
All you had was the black press, but in North Carolina or in Wilmington, in fact you had a very strong daily. It was very rare for black papers to be a daily, but the journal was a daily paper. Of course they burned it. They basically shut down the one source of true information that black people were able to get.
Jermaine (42:14.454)
Yeah.
Jermaine (42:23.058)
And how do you make a connection between what happened in Wilmington? And do you make a connection between 2020 and Wilmington? You know, and I think your book came out in a relevant time when that conversation was being had in terms of the election then.
David Zucchino (42:37.111)
All right.
David Zucchino (42:40.515)
Oh yeah, and in fact as I mentioned, in 1898 the white supremacy campaign said the election had been stolen in 1896, the election that put black people in power, and you see the same thing today of this lie, the big lie about the stolen election. The other parallel I see is this equating of vigilantism with patriotism.
that we see in the MAGA movement now. And we saw on January 6 that country, Trump telling his followers that they had to take the country back. And violence was the tool they used and they justified it, that violence is justified in taking back our country from these.
illegitimate people in eighteen ninety six it was the black population and today it's the coalition of black brown and white people uh... in the democratic party that's the enemy today back then it was the uh... black men in office this strain of white supremacy and white nationalism very much alive today uh... in the MAGA movement and the far right also the
of guns by white men and this happened back in 1898 when they would brag in the newspaper about how many guns they had collected about these armories that they had and how they were going to use the power of the gun to put black people in their place and to end negro domination. They were very clear about that and of course today you have the worshipping of guns through the NRA and the arming of this.
movement in the United States that's very strong the militia movement and the proud boys and people like that I mean the red shirts were essentially the proud boys of the day back in 1898 and they were heavily armed and brandished their weapons as tools of intimidation just as they do today.
Jermaine (44:44.322)
The parallels are uncanny, right? And if there's no other instances to let you know that the parallels are there and the past is present and a lot of the playbooks, people are studying history and using the same things to work 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 100 years ago to apply to today, because I think human emotions don't change, right? You're speaking to the same sentiments that people have, regional sentiments or racial sentiments.
David Zucchino (44:59.606)
Yeah.
Jermaine (45:14.174)
And, you know, it's just like you, some, oh, some ways you're shocked, or at least I'm shocked that this stuff still works. But if you have an understanding of human nature, then you could see, you know, populism and, and just the messaging that's being played, just tweaked and turned just a little bit, you know, to be updated for the 21st century. But it's essentially, you know, a lot of the same things that we saw back in Reconstruction and Wilmington, you know, back in the 70s, 80s, you know, all these things trickling into today.
David Zucchino (45:21.419)
Right.
David Zucchino (45:43.771)
Alright. Yeah, the theme that really comes through, through white supremacists in 1898 and the white supremacist nationalists today is that your country is being taken from you. You are the legitimate citizens of this country in 1898. It was white men and today it's white Christians. I mean that's very clear that they believe that this is a white Christian country and all these outsiders are threatening it.
And if we have to rise up and use violence to put it down, we will to quote, get our country back, to quote Donald Trump. And this is a very, very prevailing belief among white nationalists today. And that was what really motivated the whole January 6th insurrection.
Jermaine (46:31.114)
Absolutely. Well, David, I want to thank you so much for coming on. I really, again, enjoyed reading your book. I learned so much from reading your book. It's historical scholarship of the highest order, and it's heartbreaking. It's riveting. Everyone should read Wilmington's Lie. Your research, I don't think a lot of people often realize just the blood, sweat and tears that goes into writing a book like this and getting it right and making sure that you're.
having a diverse perspective and just bringing the truth to bear. And so I can only imagine the immense effort that you put into writing this. And yeah, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been informative, transformative, and thank you for sharing this pivotal work with the world.
David Zucchino (47:14.219)
Thank you, Jermaine. It was a real pleasure talking to you. I love your show. You really get into some penetrating questions and some great themes. So thank you. I appreciate it. Okay. Bye.
Jermaine (47:23.618)
Thank you.
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEJermaine Fowler dives into why studying history is a game-changer, with four compelling reasons. He shows how understanding the past helps us make sense of today, boosts our critical thinking, and uncovers patterns that shape our world. Plus, he highlights how history builds empathy by connecting us to diverse human stories. This isn't just about dates and facts; it's about enriching our minds and hearts.
Grab one of our overlooked history courses CHECK IT OUT
TakeawaysUnderstand the Past to Navigate the PresentStudying history is crucial for understanding the past and navigating the complexities of today's world. It provides a solid foundation to comprehend how past events shape current realities, helping us make sense of our present.
Enhance Critical Thinking SkillsHistory is a playground for critical thinking. It encourages us to question assumptions and challenge the status quo. By analyzing historical events and perspectives, we sharpen our ability to think deeply and critically.
Recognize Patterns to Influence the FutureRecognizing historical patterns offers valuable insights into societal trends. This understanding empowers us to anticipate future developments and make informed decisions that can shape the course of history.
Foster Empathy and Promote JusticeStudying history cultivates empathy by immersing us in diverse human experiences. This deeper understanding promotes active participation in creating a just and dignified society, ensuring that we learn from the past to build a better future.
- EPISODE TRANSCRIPT History is boring, history is useless. I don't really care about history because it's just facts and dates and I don't even see why I should have to study history. I couldn't really keep a straight face when I said that because I think you should study history. But if you've ever said that or you ever heard anyone say any one of those things, stick around because I want to give you four reasons why I think you must study history and stick around for number four because it's the most important. For number one, I want you to imagine waking up one day,
with complete amnesia. You don't remember anything. Your mind is a blank slate without any memory of your past experiences or knowledge of the world around you. And even the simplest tasks are challenging. You might not remember your name or where you live or how to communicate with others. Every interaction, every decision is shrouded in confusion and uncertainty. And now I want you to think about what happens when you neglect to study.
history, you are essentially subjecting yourself to a form of societal amnesia. Because without an understanding of the past, the present becomes confusing, just a jumble of events with no context or meaning. And so history serves as this guiding light on the path forward, showing us why things are the way they are, the norms, the political systems, the cultural practices of humanity. And so just like someone with...
amnesia must rely on others to piece together their identity. When you don't study history, you rely on others to interpret the world for you. And that's scary because everybody doesn't have your best interest at heart. You become vulnerable to manipulation and misinformation, unable to tell the truth from lies. And so history empowers you to think critically and question assumptions and challenge the status quo. The number two reason you should study history is to build your critical thinking.
History isn't just about memorizing dates and events. It's like a crash course in critical thinking. It's a playground where you learn to question everything. And critical thinking is not bending facts to fit your beliefs. It's bending your beliefs to fit the facts. Critical thinking is to pursue what's true. Think about this. History is full of stories. Many of them are lies and myths. And you've got to sift through the facts and separate truth from fiction and piece together what really happened.
It's kind of like detective work, but without the trench coat or the fedora. The number three reason you need to study history is because it's like a playbook of human drama filled with recurring patterns that shape our world. Take for instance, the rise and fall of mighty empires like Rome or the revolutions that rocked nations like the American revolution or the Haitian revolution. These aren't just stories of the past. They are the blueprints of human behavior etched into the fabric of time. And so,
There are rises and falls, there are ebbs and flows, there are cycles of birth and growth and decline and death and renewal. And just like how you can predict the weather by studying clouds and wind patterns, understanding historical patterns lets you anticipate the storms and the sunny days of society. For example, the way economic inequality sparked revolutions in the past that can clue us into potential for future uprisings. It's like having
a cheat code for navigating the complexities of the present. So why does this matter? Because armed with this knowledge, we're not just bystanders watching history unfold. We are active participants shaping its course. We can learn from the mistakes and the successes of our ancestors, steering society towards brighter horizons. And number four and most important for me is empathy, it's humanity. And I think.
That is essential when it comes to studying history. I want you to picture diving head first into the stories of people who live centuries ago. You're walking in their shoes, you're feeling their joys, you're feeling their sorrows and their victories and defeats, like traveling through the hearts and minds of humanity. And so this really matters because empathy isn't just some feel good buzzword. It's the glue that holds society together. When you understand where someone's coming from, when you feel their struggles and their triumphs deep in your bones, you can't help but stand alongside them.
in their fight for justice or dignity or recognition. And it doesn't mean that you're always trying to even feel what a person went through emotionally. It could just mean trying to understand. And so empathy in the study of history might mean trying to understand maybe why somebody who was a terrible dictator did horrible things, because understanding their background and the context that they.
came up in can help us understand how such a person came to power and might help us understand the dangers of unchecked power, the consequences of hatred and prejudice, and the importance of actively opposing injustice. But I think what we find most often when we study the lives of those who came before us, we learn to appreciate the richness and diversity of human experience. We see that no matter our differences, that we all share the same fundamental desires, freedom.
justice and a shot at a decent life. It's like looking into a mirror and realizing that, hey, we're all not so different after all. Those are my four reasons. Feel free to let me know yours. Make sure you subscribe, comment, review, and I will see you next time. Signing off. It's me, Jermaine Fowler.
with Jesse Williams
**APPLE PODCASTS** **|** **SPOTIFY** **|** **YOUTUBE**Jermaine sits down with Jesse Williams, who brings a sharp focus to the importance of a full, honest portrayal of Black history in understanding our identities. From his early days on 'Grey's Anatomy' to his powerful speech at the BET Awards, Jesse discusses how history shapes us and the critical role of media in either reinforcing stereotypes or breaking them down.
He reflects on the impact of storytelling in pushing for social change and honors the deep roots and struggles that define our collective journey. Join us for a conversation that’s not just about looking back, but moving forward with purpose and responsibility.
Grab one of our overlooked history coursesDive deep into the stories that textbooks left behind. Grab one of our overlooked history courses today and uncover the untold narratives that shaped our world.
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History in Focus: Jesse Williams on Identity, Storytelling, and ChangeJermaine sits down with Jesse Williams, an actor and activist renowned for his deep commitment to social justice and cultural education. This conversation illuminates the crucial role of Black history in understanding identity and influencing contemporary society.
Exploring the Depths of Black History:Jesse Williams emphasizes the importance of a robust Black history education, critiquing the simplistic narratives often found in mainstream education. He argues that a fuller understanding of Black history is vital not just for Black individuals but for society at large, as it promotes a more nuanced understanding of American history and identity. Jesse discusses how historical awareness can serve as a foundation for empowerment and a tool for challenging systemic inequities.
The Impact of Accurate Representation:Further, Jesse touches on the powerful role of media in shaping perceptions. He criticizes the media's frequent failure to provide accurate and diverse representations of Black lives, discussing how this lack of representation feeds into stereotypes and cultural misunderstandings. Jesse shares insights from his own experiences in the entertainment industry, particularly his roles that have challenged the typical narratives and offered more complex, humanized portrayals of Black characters.
Storytelling as a Tool for Social Change:Jesse passionately speaks about the transformative power of storytelling in media and public discourse. He reflects on his journey from being an educator to pursuing acting, where he has continued his advocacy by choosing roles that offer depth and foster understanding. Jesse highlights his speech at the BET Awards as a moment where he used his platform to address historical injustices and call for accountability and change.
Commitment to Activism and Social Justice:The discussion delves into Jesse’s ongoing activism, exploring how he leverages his fame to advocate for equality and systemic reform. Jesse talks about the responsibility that comes with visibility, stressing the importance of using one’s platform to challenge injustices and promote a more equitable society. He shares his views on the role of celebrities in activism, encouraging others in the public eye to speak out and support movements for social change.
Empowering Future Generations:Finally, Jesse reflects on the importance of historical knowledge for the younger generation. He talks about his efforts to engage with young people, educating them on the importance of history and how it shapes their present and future. Jesse expresses a strong commitment to fostering a sense of responsibility in younger audiences, motivating them to pursue meaningful work that honors the sacrifices of their ancestors and contributes to societal progress.
This episode with Jesse Williams is not just a conversation; it's a call to action. It challenges listeners to rethink their understanding of history, recognize the power of their voices, and actively participate in the ongoing fight for justice and equality.
- Podcast Episode Transcript Jermaine (00:01)
Joining us today, we are talking with Jesse Williams. He is somebody who a lot of people know from Grey's Anatomy, but he's a talented actor, a Broadway star, a director, a producer, but there's a whole nother side to him that I think is even more fascinating. Jesse, you're not just an actor, but you are a very powerful voice in the world of activism and social justice. And before you hit the screen, you are also in the classroom teaching in public schools and shaping young minds.
And I think in an age where celebrity activism can feel kind of superficial, I think you stand apart and I've talked to you before and we kind of have this interest in history and black issues and you've stood in solidarity on black issues, on labor strikes, on Palestine. And I feel like that's not just a byproduct of your fame, but it is your fame that serves as a platform for this underlying sense of justice that you have. So welcome to the show. I appreciate you coming on today.
jesse (01:01)
Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. Big fan of all that you do and have been doing. So it's my pleasure to be here.
Jermaine (01:07)
Yeah, absolutely. So I wanna start off really with, I've looked at your background and your story and I've been surprised and inspired and even shocked in some ways as far as like your background as a teacher, but it has given me a context and into how somebody like you, who has the fame and the acting career, but who is so fundamentally committed to activism and being a voice for black people and marginalized people.
And so for those who don't really know your story, going back to your earliest years in Chicago and time spent in Massachusetts, what is the context that people would need to understand how you got where you are right now?
jesse (01:49)
Well, as it relates to my words and actions in social justice spaces, I would think that relevant factors have been certainly my parentage, my parents, my upbringing, both my parents were activists, very politically active discussions around what's happening on the planet, you know, beyond domestic issues, what's happening in South Africa. You know, I'm
I'm 43, so in the 80s, we're still talking about apartheid and workers' rights, labor. Labor was a very central topic, what's happening, in terms of minimum wage, safety, security for black and brown folks in this country, war, ways in which we are drained of our energy resources and autonomy to serve.
you know, a capitalist construction were just topics that were tossed around amongst my parents and their friends. And most importantly, it was always a metric for achievement and value and purpose in life was always set out from my father specifically as what are you doing for black folks? It was the we, it was the collective always over the individual.
grows and finds new shapes as you get older and have new interests, whether that's on a sports team or in school. I mean, I was, my father always left me homework. I would come home and I have my schoolwork to do. And then he would give me assignments, articles to read and papers to write around the African burial ground or a historical figure. You know, common gifts for me were Malcolm X speeches, you know.
books, heavy, heavy reading and book reports. I had to really discuss comprehension of both nonfiction and creative writing that had to do with our collective growth and achievement. And it gave me a sense of purpose. I think that you'll find that people who understand their history, particularly folks who have been disenfranchised and whose history has been weaponized against them.
The great leaders that we have, great voices that we have, they know their history. There's a reason why people feel better about themselves, sit more upright, look you in the eye, and have context for all the propaganda that is the lens through which we're fed information. There's a reason that we're more confident and the reason that we have a sense of, our posture is a little bit different. You can't unlearn this level of context.
I give any credit for my awareness, my antenna being up to my parents and growing up in the hood in Chicago, being on welfare, being broke in the 80s in the crack era, having a sense of, and I say all that to say really not as a negative, actually a deep sense of community and interdependence on each other and love despite.
not being able to hide behind material goods and things that are other that kind of demonstrate love and affection for people, but they're really just materials. So when you don't have that, what do you have left? You have to have community and attention and support and those things. So I think all those things really factored into my childhood sense of self, my childhood sense of what my cultural appreciation and alliances. And then
Spending my formative junior high school and high school years living in lower middle class and upper middle class white spaces in New England was a huge culture shift. So I got to get a real embedded experience as a bit of an invisible man, to use Ralph Ellison's term, to sit in the rooms and see how white people operated.
and learn very quickly that they are not this lofty, intimidating thing to fear. There's actually something far more interesting happening. So I think so much about life is access, whether it's information or people or networks or resources or water or food or freedom. That's where you get real meaningful experience.
I think a pretty meaningful, unique childhood and level of access, which is also definitely provided by my complexion, my features. The proximity to whiteness is a hall pass and I certainly benefited and became pretty educated as a result.
Jermaine (06:59)
Yeah, you said something about your father really giving you this homework that I wanted to go back to and then I wanna come back forward to this kind of issue of upbringing and identity. But I really think it's important now when you see the censorship of black history, of marginalized history. I've always seen the solution as twofold, right? It's not just a...
one solution. It is you have to fight this, what's going on in the schools and the education system. But I really feel like there is another sense of kind of what your dad did, right? Like we need to be teaching our own kids and having our own collectives in terms of making sure that kids are getting this history. So just to see how much that impacted you and influenced your sense of purpose, right? Of your dad giving you this homework, giving you the things that schools, maybe you realize school is never going to give my son this. Like I have to do my part
jesse (07:49)
Yeah.
Jermaine (07:49)
I'm giving my son what he needs and that's really shaped you as a person. So I thought that was very interesting that you kind of pointed to that.
jesse (07:58)
It is, it's interesting, not only because of what it added, but it made glaringly obvious what has been subtracted from those who didn't enjoy that upbringing. A, I got my black history never from a school. It's never been a school I'm a part of until I went to Temple, which has a well-recognized Africana Studies Department, African Studies Department, particularly in graduate school.
But short of that, I was always getting it at home. I was always getting it from real lived experience and having adults around me to interpret the news that was coming in, because news and current events is history the moment it's happened. But what became more clear to me in the college years when we all start coming together from different communities and do a big school, I went to Temple University in Philly, so a really big school, it's in the hood.
And just seeing the impact of the absence of a sense of real self in the global equation, what it starved, how malnourished my peers were that had to, if you don't, if you, by the time you get to college, a lot of most people don't have the luxury of like, I'll dabble in African-American studies or African history 101. They're focused on a core curriculum. They're focused on a major.
and those things. So the few that get to take, you know, you're 19 years old for the first time learning that you didn't come from something you should be deeply ashamed of. And it's really just like kind of a surface level history at best. So I got to, I got to appreciate the role that the responsibility is ours, whether we like it or not, it shouldn't have to be, but the responsibility is in the home in terms of child rearing.
our young people to have a sense of where they sit, where they fit, what they've contributed and this and kind of their race esteem. But I also got to see an undergrad what it's like for people to get a little too, for our people to get a little too little, a little too late about their sense of self. And you kind of walk away with the generic, well, we were kings sense of, you know, it kind of feels good for seven seconds, but after that, you don't really have any ammunition.
Um, so that lack became, became glaring as well. So yeah, as you, as, as we're up against what DeSantis and, and squad have been doing in Florida and around has been happening for a long time, Tennessee to Texas, uh, you know, trying to teach slavery or, or internships and whatnot, um, and also defining Black History Month and, and black accomplishment.
by us extracting ourselves from suffration as opposed to actual, the contributions we've made that touch everybody in this society every day, multiple times a day. So yeah, it's like having goggles on, you can see the disadvantages, they're highlighted in a new way that we're, where in some ways ignorance would be bliss.
Jermaine (11:17)
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You touched on a lot there, the superficiality of history and how it's almost like getting a superficial history.
I don't think a lot of people are aware and then we tap into this superficial history in terms of the Kings and Queens and not really digging deeper into the why right? It's uh, I think we've had this conversation before of like how did Matamusa get you know, his well, you know Like we're digging deeper beyond the surface right like always got the richest man in America. We're applying these same Frameworks, you know these Western frameworks to studying African history Well, you want to celebrate the richest guy, right? The billionaire that you know
jesse (11:39)
Well, yeah, and also that like...
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (11:58)
or two of them that there's exactly
jesse (11:58)
which is using Eurocentric measures of accomplishment and masculinity. And also even short of that, you think of black, what do you call it? What's this called? February Black History Month? It's actually, the framework of it is, could it be more white centered? It's only about Dr. King or what are you gonna get? You're gonna get people trying to fight against white oppression, right? Which means it's white centered. It's actually about their proximity
Jermaine (12:11)
Yep.
jesse (12:28)
to whiteness. Can you teach me about black folks that existed and lived and contributed and built something admirable and useful and practically applicable without them having to be in a relationship with you? Right, Kukuni, can we just learn about inventors, people who invented all the things you touch and feel every day, an elevator, a light, a traffic light, a cotton gin, whatever.
for the betterment of their own life. People actually affecting, take an agency in their own life, being self-determined, self-reliant, being one generation out of centuries of enslavement and building monumental institutions of higher learning, patenting when patenting was illegal before that for black folks. Self-starting, all those things that America prides itself on, right? Bootstraps, self-made. White Americans love to tell you,
coins in his pocket and nothing and he built something. We have that in droves, but that's not included in the default black history that you're gonna be fed. And because it's underrepresented in our lives, I'm talking about just kind of general American public school proximity to black history. I'm putting air quotes for those who can't see the video. You are that.
that's gonna be your first brush with this topic. And if you don't love it and really sink your teeth into it, that is gonna be overrepresented as what that genre is. So if I think black history, I think I have a dream Martin Luther King.
you're never delving into the huge, huge bounty that is beyond that. So that is one of the suffocating qualities of unde of disenfranchisement, is just one little tip, one little look through a window ends up over-representing this huge panoply of ideas, people, and concepts, whereas having equity is really the goal.
Jermaine (14:36)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And I want to go back to this, this idea of identity, right? Black identity in specific, which I talked about in my book. And when we talk about history, it's largely tied to identity. I think there's a reason that people
want to reach back for their ancestry, ancestry.com, a billion dollar industry of genealogy and wanting to know where we came from. And I think about the words, this ties deeply with psychology, right? So there was a psychologist named Eric Erickson, and he said, in the social jungle of human existence, there is no feeling of being alive without a sense of identity, right? So I think that runs very deep. And so...
I think that this question of who I am, you know, it's rich and complex because for black people, you know, we have been cast, I think, into this relentless search for identity amidst the history that's tried to erase us. You talk about the shackles of the transatlantic slave trade, the ongoing struggles of marginalization. You think about black people searching for identity throughout the years in these different ways, right? If you remember in the 80s and 90s, people were very much embracing of this.
identity with the dashikis or you know you have the ancient Egypt culture you know what we might call the whole step culture within a subsector sector of black America you have a black Hebrew Israelites you have people claiming indigenous heritage
jesse (16:04)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (16:06)
And I think for me, like my theory is a lot of this, because a lot of these things don't have the evidence that we would really need to support it, right? I think it's a deep void because Black people are largely an exilic people, right? I mean, a lot of us don't know where we came from. And I don't think a lot of people want to end their identity at the slave ship, right? They don't want to do that. So it's a reaching.
But I think there's something to be said though about just embracing our identity as black Americans, like in the here and now and what we've done in America, you know, woven from these strands of adversity, cultural resilience and a distinct American experience. But I wanted to get your perspective on that just as far as the black identity. And do you think there's a void there? Like what do we connect to?
jesse (16:56)
Well, sure, and it's by design. I think that when you starve a people of food, for example, and then you give them some crumbs, they'll take those crumbs and try to make something of it. And some, you know, black, we know if we don't know, you know, nobody knows alchemy like black folks, we're gonna whip it up and, you know, we'll give you chitlins and hog mugs and pig feet and all that. We're gonna make something of it. But it is still a bri product of being starved. It is not your normal cuisine.
You are making do with what you have, and history is no different. If you are starved of any sense of being anchored and having a heritage and a long tradition and a complexity, instead of being represented to yourself and others as a monolithic group that has group think in all ways, if you're starved of any of that, by osmosis, you absorb it to some level. You believe it to be true or to be rooted in some truth.
And therefore you start looking around and flailing and grasping to try to find anything that will put a salve on that wound. What's gonna make me feel better? We were, oh, we were this, we were that, we were there. It's kind of similar like government conspiracies. People have, you know that the Tuskegee experiment happened. You know that the government has done dirt in the crack era with black communities. So you're more likely to.
read a little bit deeper into most conspiracy theories. It doesn't mean you're a wacko. It means you've got a rational connection to this something distrustful about my relationship with this power structure. I'm available to learn a little bit more. With that, you're gonna have some things that get through the filter. And with history, you're going to, we're gonna want to sometimes over-correct or over-represent elements.
that are presented to us. So what is the good common denominator about the ground, the soil that is producing maybe some fringe elements I think you're indicating in that quet is that there's a curiosity there. There is a hunger there that is way more valuable than plain apathy, than indifference. So that curiosity warms my heart, makes me feel...
as a former, as a history student and history teacher, that's all I need to feed. When I'm teaching seventh graders about Nubia and ancient Sudan and Kemet, and using, showing them images of people black as night with cornrows that were ear graders and scientists and astronomers and architects, and watching their posture to remain completely shift in my classroom, and going from messing around, looking at girls, trying to throw stuff to changing,
being engaged and having follow-up questions because it gives them a place that is the only time, you know, we associate history with shame because the only history we ever learn is something to be ashamed of. Even the accomplishments are pulling ourselves up out of a place of shame. So that is a real, that's a real hard thing to scrub off. And so that's what that flailing, that's what that's that grasping.
Jermaine (20:06)
Yeah.
jesse (20:18)
is for. I was saying, you know, I don't, I don't, I see trends around like there was no, we didn't come from Africa, we're from here, you know. Okay, you found some old census that calls indigenous North Americans colored or Negro because they just saw you as dark. But I mean, okay, I don't, I don't, I've never seen any evidence to give that any footing, but I don't begrudge them because I know what they're, they're thirsty.
and they're just trying to quench that thirst. And that's the most valuable element of that equation. All of this is addressed directly for me with very simple teaching African and African-American history. The core of this is also Pan-Africanism, understanding that we, our future, our fate as American Africans is directly connected to the fate of the continent.
We are the only people who are rudderless and without any connection to a heritage of cuisine and culture and language and habits and posture and dance and science and math and music, etc. And out of that has been born a beautiful and the most popular culture in the world on the planet. But you talked about kind of 80s, 90s with the medallions and gold medallions and the Afro picks and that cultural was a dope era.
a beautiful era that was squelched for a reason. That had popular music celebrating, embracing, poking curiosities around ourself, KRS telling us about, you know, overseer, officer, giving you these breakdowns, making you think while being entertained. And that is a threat to a larger power structure. So hence comes in more self-destructive.
over-emphasizing, over-funding, over-promoting, over-marketing, gangster rap, black on black violence as celebrated. Still true, still an important part of our narrative, but overrepresented in terms of who we are. That's why a Cosby show stood out so wonderfully on television because we never were thirsty and we never got this level of hydration. Oh, we can exist in this space, which is not just a reaction to...
the strangulation of poverty, et cetera. There is a difference between, and I've always struggled and kind of wrestled with this since I was young when Ebonics became popular and we talked about black language, but it was also, it was directly connected to, it's connected to Africa, it's connected to ways in which we form our words, where languages that don't stick their tongue out with TH, because that's rude, that's not culturally accepted. So,
So Ds instead of Ths. But also Ebonics is also a byproduct of poverty, of urban poverty, which is different than rural poverty and things that are woven into this thing we call blackness, but it's also tied to class. It's tied to economic resources. So seeing us represented in ways beyond that, you know, I say if white folks were a deep, deep minority, 10, 11, 12% of a nation is large and is influential.
and they were only represented by Honey Boo Boo, some white trash, mangling language, culture, etiquette, family, there would be a huge swath of that demographic that doesn't feel represented and actually is being harmed by that over-representation. And that would be a reasonable position to take. And that is my, that's my position, that's our position. That represents a significant part of us.
Jermaine (24:13)
Yeah.
jesse (24:16)
not all of us, it doesn't mean it's based on shame because we love ourselves and we love the absolute genius that comes out of the environment that we're in, but that doesn't mean we can't be complex and interesting and ever-changing.
Jermaine (24:36)
I mean, do you see a resurgence of that 80s, 90s energy happening? I mean, with everything with the internet now and I think the wave and, you know, hip hop and music being tied to not only black.
cultural experience, music, dance, et cetera, but just the intellectual spaces as well. And now you have, I was thinking the other day, what's the wildest thing that society accepts? And I think it's, with the music, it's literally a number one song about the killing and murdering of black men, right? It's just totally accepted in society. People, not only black people, white people walking around, or driving around, or with their AirPods in or whatever, like listening to this vibe in their head at the gym, or whatever.
jesse (25:10)
in here.
Yeah.
Jermaine (25:21)
Do you think that the machine is just so efficient? I mean, especially thinking about now how people seem to be more content. It kind of ties in too with this James Baldwin quote. He said, like, nothing's changed. They've just given us more tokens, right? So we're more pacified, right?
these things are accepted. Like how do you have that resurgence of that, that eighties, nineties kind of dashiki intellectual energy where the curiosities are being fueled and we're having these conversations like that. I feel like it was a more diverse representation there. I mean, you still had gangster music then, but it was more of a balance, right? It was the fullness of the black experience from the hood to the university to, and everything in between. But yeah, it seems like we're kind of in a dark age right now.
jesse (25:43)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Right, that was another great element because HBCUs were really well represented. It's an absolute shame what has happened on either side of Bill Cosby's legacy. But at that time, those shows, Different World, Abs, Debbie Allen, you know, Felicia Rashad, absolutely changing our sense of potential. Doesn't have to be self, but potential. And...
I think we have, I think you rightly point out that we are, we certainly have the elements, the tools available to us to enter a resurgence of that sense of returning to celebrating and exploring those elements of ourself and also some self-reliance. I think that in the information age, in the kind of...
melting pot of all ideas, cultures, trends. We kind of killed off regionalism in this country. We're all kind of the same. We dress the same, talk the same. There's only like New Orleans and the Bay are the only like regions left where, and I'm exaggerating surely, but where there's real dialectical distinction. But I think, yes, we could be ushering in cycling back.
to that era and that era being cool and interesting. We still have incredible in terms of, you'd be a lot of these things are left, we follow bat signals and that's usually through pop culture and pop culture is hip hop and hip hop adjacent. So we still have MCs that are conscious, that are being able to give you bangers, but also not degrade themselves or others. The role that a, all of this is anchored by a sense of.
belonging, purpose, and contribution. And I would also say that it's really important that, say black history, for example, African history and connection is not just for us. It is not just, it is deeply necessary for our white children and peers to be in that classroom, watching, listening, and learning about
all the things that they touch and affect them throughout their day that were born wholly out of Black minds and spirits. Because they're the ones that affect all this. These issues around racism have very little to do with Black people. They have very little to do with the oppressed. It has to do with power and what trinkets they're willing to dole out to us. So they're actually the most important members of that classroom, is members of the dominant class.
So like just circling back to those images around academia and teaching black studies and black history and weaving in, you know, we teach world history, world histories in high school curriculums. It's just really coded European history. It is a form of hyper Anglo-Christian religion. You're learning that the white man is God. That's a history class. If you learn that the white man created everything, it's the same thing as creating a white Jesus. You're just, we're taking something that existed
Jermaine (29:09)
Absolutely.
jesse (29:24)
pretending that somebody's the sole creator and arbiter of its value. So that, I think that's worth noting that I would never advocate for black history just for us to feel better. It directly affects the machinery of our society and makes it that much easier to look at Mike Brown or Jordan Davis or somebody deleting in the street, Ricky Avoy. It's okay for us to...
Oh, you know, it's why slavery is far less examined than the Holocaust, for example. Slavery didn't happen to people. It happened to faceless black silhouettes that weren't really going to be shit anyway. They didn't really do anything before that, so we didn't really lose anything. It just happened to these black folks. Whereas the Holocaust happened to human beings with a backstory and a life and a childhood and trades and interests and a sense of community and purpose and accomplishment and things they left behind and language and rightly so.
of course, but we have to color in that dark silhouette of the people who had affected the land from which they were torn, etc. Or else it'll continue to, or else what's the common denominator? Crimes against our beings are left unadjudicated. Or the verdict is that it's not really that important because it's not really that important. Because how can it, all the, all the metrics we use to measure importance of human life are
We don't qualify according to this very deliberately restricted marketing scheme that is like so-called history. So just trying to tether that all those things are directly connected. It's the reason why you can't care about a character in a book that's in or in a movie because they're black and the same way you care about this, same way when a missing white girl goes missing, it's a national bulletin and there's 12 missing girls that same week that you never heard of.
Jermaine (31:01)
Yeah.
jesse (31:19)
that have heroic, incredible stories, that got themselves free, but eh, what's she gonna be? Her name sounds funny. It's directly connected to history because nobody's ever looked like you has ever done shit. It's directly connected.
Jermaine (31:25)
And that's all connected to history, right? That's how important history is. It forms the identity. Yeah. Or black people just being fought or fought or cannon fodder for history is what the black body has been. And then even the talk of just the black body and academia now it's like.
You know that so much has been done to the black body. Like what about the black mind, the black brilliance, the black aspirations, the black hope, you know, so it's like and that's why too in my book. I'm like, okay, like this isn't really black history, man. This is anti black history. There's a history of black people and the things black people have done. And then there's a history of what has been done to black people. And so I think that all these things as you said, and I was going to ask you like why did you become a teacher? But I think you probably understand that these things have to be
jesse (31:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (32:13)
Ganked up by the root writers deep insidious weeds that need to be pulled out, right? And I was reading the other day for instance
jesse (32:22)
And that it changes. It is the fork in the road. Your life is forever changed because you absorbed information about yourself. You can't go backwards now. You have a sense of duty, a sense of purpose, a sense of newly opened potential in you. It absolutely changes the structure, the track that you're on. It almost makes a food that used to take, you know when you used to remember, you know, we used to love.
blank, we used to love eating blank. You used to love this Elio's pizza or something when we were in the hood as kids, some frozen bagels or whatever. And you go eat it later as an adult, you're like, this is nasty. The food hasn't changed, your palate has changed. And once your palate becomes more refined, once your standards get raised, you can't go backwards and be destructive to your own community because your own community is now something of value where it was actually something like a scab on your body you wanted to get rid of.
which is why it's so easy for us to dispose of each other. Because we desperately are just clinging to power in a world where we are powerless. But anyway, I can digress within a digression.
Jermaine (33:29)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you touched on a lot. You touched on a lot. And just, yeah, when I was thinking about history and just how it cast this long shadow, and this can be tied to some of the things you're talking about in terms of.
how we view ourselves, how we view power, whether it be A over B or, you know, versus A through B. You know, you can find examples of all these things in history, but it's not being, it's only being taught through this narrow lens. Like you said, it's a Eurocentric lens that's gonna make you a cog in the machine of what is right. But one thing I was reading was this old slavery or textbook, American history textbook, and it kind of was perpetuating that myth of like the
came out, I'm probably getting the dates not all the way right, but it was probably like the summer in the 1950s. Right now, I started to think, well, President Joe Biden, he was like 20 years old when this book came out. Right. So this is the book that he was taught or even read from. Right. And this is who is the father of Iran DeSantis. Right. And I mean, so these ideas aren't that old. I mean, they continue to be perpetuated unless you have teachers committed to, you know,
jesse (34:39)
Right.
Jermaine (34:43)
changing the narrative or but you know from a teacher level from a parent level but you know how do we change the whole system itself right that's the bigger question that's the million dollar question i think is will the system change or does it have to be kind of shattered torn down and then build a new right because you're always going to have people like you going to the teaching field people having these conversations like we're having here but uh you know overall i think sometimes people can get discouraged like well damn nothing's
jesse (35:06)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, what you something you just said is a really good example of the value of historical context. So you said something about a what did you just say something about an oppressed group being like docile and it just being the good old the good old days. And this is that very thing affects how we
Jermaine (35:34)
Yeah.
jesse (35:41)
can absorb what's happening around the world today. So during enslavement in America, those advocating for and pushing against any sense of abolitionist movement, like slavery is not so bad. They're happy. Our Negroes are happy. They look like Uncle Ben and Aunt Jemima. They're docile. They're docile people. We give them, you know, they're fed and they're clothed. And there's no real beef. What's the problem? Everything's good. It's all good. It's all calm.
because that serves the narrative. As soon as post-Civil War, now we're in the Antebellum South and slavery is over supposedly, what happens, the Black man becomes a raving lunatic beast. The Black man is a buck, a monster, ravaging the mountains and the plains, looking for white women and robbing and thieving and raping and a werewolf essentially. Because now...
that can affect policy and we can invent structures to destroy them. But just two seconds ago, just last year, they were a peaceful, calm, happy to serve people. So that shift when it doesn't serve your overall narrative or the mechanisms of your society when they're not in servitude to you, you can't just have them out here free because by definition, whiteness is to be better than blackness. If you can't stand on my neck and I get to see you out here.
Jermaine (37:00)
Right.
jesse (37:08)
free, smart, intelligent, educated, creative. What do I, I disappear, I start to shrink. I'm not as tall as I used to be. So they had to figure out ways to both directly and indirectly destroy that and destroy it by a narrative. And I mean, shit, you see that today, you know, beyond certainly beyond African people, right? There was no problem in Israel, Palestine. There's no problem, what's the problem? It's not apartheid, it's cool. Everybody's happy. They have their stuff, we have ours. There's no problem over here.
then when something goes wrong, they're a monstrous group that all of them, three-year-olds, three-month-olds, all of them deserve to die because they're all threats, they're all potential terrorists. I thought, you know, so human beings aren't necessarily changing, it's those in power who are, so without a sense of historical context, oh, this story's been told before, oh, this is familiar, I've heard this before, I've read about this before. That is life-changing on how I absorbed.
so-called news and information. If you start noticing, you can't notice trends or patterns if you have not been exposed to trends or patterns. If I tell you something for the first time, that's how you get hustled. If I've heard it before, oh, I've been warned about this. Jermaine warned me about this. He told me this is what happens when, don't play three-card Monte in the street with dudes that are hiding a ball under a cup three times. He told me what happens. Don't fall for it. They're gonna let you win the first time, and then they're gonna take it the next time.
Thank God you told me that, because if you hadn't told me that, I would have thought something different. That's the value of information and setting expectations for people. Something that simple as a principle can absolutely change the way you treat yourself and others and the relationships you form, the people you trust. It's wildly important, which is why it's so deeply attacked and affected.
Jermaine (39:06)
Absolutely. I wanna switch gears for a second and talk about like you're acting, right? I think it's very inspiring that you.
beginning, correct me if I'm wrong, Karey, your acting career, and you're like later 20s, right? Especially after being an educator. And it reminded me of this story that I had recently heard about Toni Morrison, not even writing her first novel until she was like 40, right? So it challenges this notion of when we are supposed to achieve certain milestones in life, right? So what drove you to pursue acting at this stage in your life? And was this like a long-held dream of yours? Or what sparked this transition into this?
jesse (39:31)
Yeah.
It certainly wasn't acting was not something on my radar. I didn't even, I'm not from anywhere that's close to anything that would think it's a real accessible, attainable job, nor did it interest me, frankly. I was always certain that I was going to be a civil rights attorney or a NFL player. And I, that quickly, that quickly went away. But I think that, and I've cited this before, I think that one of the things that helped me
be open and available and not squeezed too tightly was on my way to, my dad drove me to, dropped me off in North Philly for college my freshman year. And I, in that process of getting ready to go away to school, he said to me, don't stress about your major or picking a career at 18 years old, 19 years old. The average adult in America changes career six times in their lives. You'll figure, you know.
Try, try things and figure them out. Don't trust, don't believe somebody else telling you what you're gonna want with your one life. And that just took a, I don't think I thought about it a lot but it just took a pressure off before it ever got really deeply rooted in having to choose or commit to marry something when I'm in the first seventh, sixth of my life. So.
I explored photography. I came into photography as a punishment for beating somebody up in school. And then the photography I fell in love with, the dark room, that process, that led me into cinematography in college, which led me into film, having film become one of my majors. And I've always been into African history and African studies have always been a part of my life. So that's partly why I went to Temple was because they had.
Theopilo Banga used to teach there, and Malefé Asante, and Joyce Joyce, and Sonny Sanchez, and Tonya Peterson Lewis, and Dr. Benwar McDonough, and all these incredible black thinkers and educators. So it was gonna be somewhere in that world. While I was at school, while I was at college, I was teaching in the hood there on North Philly, West Philly, Kensington. On weekends, you know, college, you pick your schedule and you have days off, because you can just put your schedule on Fridays off.
clear days to be able to substitute teach and be available at local public charter schools. So I was bouncing around a lot and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't really know how to utilize my interests and make them make sense and be able to provide for myself in the process. So I didn't come to it like you said. I started, I got on Grey's Anatomy when I was 29 years old. I mean, I started.
acting kind of in earnest right before 30 years old. A year before that, I did a one act play with Edward Albee at the Cherry Lane Theater in New York. And so I started my career in Brooklyn in the city in New York and decided, if I'm gonna do this, let me try to do this or else I'll go to law school. I was ready to take study for the LSAT or go to film school, but I figured I'd try. I told myself, I said,
Gonna give myself 15 months to try this, see how it feels, see if I get any momentum, but most importantly, see if it fills something for me. And I quickly, A, I was super lucky and was able to move the ball down the field, so to speak, get a little law and order gig, get a few gigs that gave me a taste for it. But most importantly, I quickly learned that it could be a weapon for good. It could be a real tool.
vast majority of us media is the lens through which we absorb and interpret the world, the universe, how cultures form, what women are like, what men are like, what Africans are like over this whole continent, the only continent that's represented by the whole continent of this specific region or country. So I realized it was a way in which to tell stories and to personify and humanize those that don't enjoy that privilege.
Um, it was interesting that without exaggeration, my first six or seven auditions were for these opportunities that I got were for these lecherous black characters, robbing some white person on a train for a show or a movie or a sexual deviant or a, you know, some hood, or just shitty roles. Um, and that became an ongoing observation and source of discussion amongst my black peers. Like these men in this case.
had to make a lot of tough decisions. I'm raising a family. If I keep playing this dude in a do-rag robbing somebody, it gets a check and I need a check, but it's gonna prevent me from playing and getting taken seriously as the attorney in this role I really want, or this engineer in this role I really want. My reel, you put together an acting reel to show your potential and your capabilities. But if it's always, I'm already, and I'm talking about people who are darker than me, who actually are really hounded by this restriction, it's not really me.
as much. But those are big choices that people have to make in entertainment. What I do now is going to reinforce the stereotype, which will prevent me from working later. But all that is to say, I learned quickly that a pocket of creativity that always influenced me, I didn't realize it was something that was within my reach. And then I realized, oh, it is the perfect balance between...
past, present, and future. The past and present affecting a vision for the future, placing us in positions that affect all this stuff. I mean, I was deeply affected by, Do the Right Things, one of the greatest films ever made. And I used to teach it in high school, you know, on an off day when we had, you know, rolling the TV on the wheels on the cart, you know, and I'd put that in and we'd talk about it and analyze what it's saying about society. And...
Jermaine (46:05)
Damn.
jesse (46:06)
That really matters. That's a real, that is as valuable as any textbook you're gonna put on a play. If you've never experienced what it's like to be in another culture, you're seeing it on a TV show. You never, you know, that is how we think, oh, that's how y'all think? That's how, oh, that's how it works? Oh, there's another, again, Cosby Show. White society and black society maybe had not seen the nuances of a harmonious black loving marriage.
uh, raising kids of multiple ages, dealing with being professional and dealing with being highly cultured and interested and curious in life. If you don't see that, it doesn't exist. Y'all are like this. If you were like anything else, I would have seen it. We believe what we can, what's attainable and what's real, what we can see and experience. Otherwise it's a dragon. It's Smith. It looks cool, but it's an idea. It's not, it's not tangible. So what, what drew me to fall in love with
what we do, it was gradual, it wasn't immediate. It was, to answer your question, it was never a lifelong dream. I didn't really even think about acting as part of that process. In film school, I was writing and producing and shooting. And that was the creative part. And then you'll, and then an actor will come in and do that and do the rest. But I quickly learned when having to do it myself, when trying to do it myself, oh shit, like I could do this 17 different ways and 16 could be really wrong.
I could discover on the 20th that, oh, that's what it really means. Oh, this is actually fun and interesting and stimulating. Stimulating is what I needed. I certainly, I dabbled, like I did a couple of modeling campaigns to pay for college and like just get some money and support my family, get some money back to my parents and siblings and stuff. And that was strictly a financial transaction. It wasn't stimulating to me.
And if I'm not being stimulated, then I'm disrespecting my ancestors and God really. If I'm not, if I'm just phoning it in, then people, people have done fought and died and bled for me to be here. You know, I think that is also Jermaine, the role that history played in my life with a sense of duty and obligation and that obligation has been too much, too much at times and a little bit overbearing at times admittedly, but. It's real. My dad would use that on me.
Jermaine (48:08)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
jesse (48:33)
all the time if I was fucking up, if I was messing around and caught me smoking weed or something like, you, that's what your ancestors went through all this shit for? For you to be fucking around and being, we need another like black drunk guy? We need another like guy that's failing out of school? That's what everybody went through everything for. And the red dirt of Georgia to here, to get you here to do this? Fuck out of here. Like that stuff smartens you up.
Jermaine (48:54)
Yeah, the weight.
Mm.
Yeah, there's a heavy truth in that, right? There's a heavy truth in that. I mean, you feel it. So it is a burden, but it's not a burden. It's not a negative burden. It can be heavy, but it's really something that I think we all carry, right? I think a lot of us have grown up with our.
jesse (49:11)
No.
Jermaine (49:20)
parents and grandparents and it's kind of like that idea of like voting which you know that's a whole nother conversation but you know people will die for you to vote I don't know how much I've had varying thoughts on that one but it's kind of that same sense of like people came before you they gave their lives for these things right they fought blood and died for these things so at the very least you should
jesse (49:30)
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
Yeah.
Jermaine (49:41)
look at that, right, and analyze that and interrogate that and see how you situate yourself then in something bigger than yourself, right? Because you are part of something bigger than yourself and that's gonna give you a sense of responsibility. Hopefully, at least by, you might not agree with every little thing about it, but it should have some weight though, because it is heavy.
jesse (49:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And maybe they're just a tiebreaker. Maybe they don't have to be the impetus for what you do with your life, but maybe they're the tiebreaker when you're slacking. This is why particularly masculine energy utilizes this. It's not so much true with feminine energy, but men, we motivate each other by barking on each other, by ripping each other down. Get the fuck up, what are you, a pussy? Military bootcamp style, football coach style, get out, grinding on each other.
Jermaine (50:17)
Mmm. Yeah.
jesse (50:27)
One more, one more, one more. A motivator, one more. You know, like that sometimes, you know, in this context, if it's not the reason you do something, it is the reason you don't stop doing something or you go ahead and get up and stop hitting snooze, the snooze button and get up and go get it. Because somebody handed you this baton, we're already at 300 meters, all you gotta do is the last 100, B. Like, go. So.
Jermaine (50:40)
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
jesse (50:53)
And so history connects you in that relay race, as opposed to thinking, convincing you that you're just on an island, it's fine if you die, it's cool, it don't matter. That's a completely different sense of awareness.
Jermaine (51:04)
Absolutely.
I want to go back to this point you had talked about.
actors being pigeonholed and I think I've asked you this before and I think this could really be helpful for somebody who might feel stuff but you know you have this role in Grey's Anatomy it's a popular one of the most successful shows in history. I looked it up there's like single episodes of the show getting like 24 million views and just for some context like there's been Super Bowls in history that they're at like 100 million views right so it just shows you how
jesse (51:35)
Yeah.
Jermaine (51:41)
were pigeonholed with that role. And maybe you might have had to do something radical at one point to break away from it, right? Because I'm thinking about an example, right? You think about Daniel Radcliffe and Harry Potter, right? Like there are people who are never gonna see him as anything other than this cute little kid with glasses, right? And then he's got this movie that he plays in. It's called Imperium. Next thing you know, he's playing this neo-Nazi as an FBI agent who infiltrates a Nazi terror group, right? And I've always wondered if he did that, try to break away from this, like,
Just being stuck in that role, right? But did you ever feel in any way stuck in that like Jackson Avery? Like that's what everybody knows you as and your create creativity you want you Go ahead
jesse (52:14)
Sure.
You know what? I mean, it's, yeah, it's the right question. It's the right question. It's a reasonable question. It's something that a couple of years in, I fully became vigilantly aware of, but I don't feel it ever happened. You hear a sound, you're on the lookout for it, but that awareness keeps it from landing. And so I...
I never did anything different in order to try to remedy it or fix it. I did a couple of things. A, being on that show was never the center of my life or embodied all of my interests or actions, right? I was still super politically active and involved. I was, like I said, by then I'm 30. I'm 30-some. I'm an adult.
I have worked at 20 different jobs, lived in many, many different places and many different cultures and atmospheres in this country. I had my own interests and I was who I was. And who I was a political minded and social justice oriented black person in this country. And so that's what I was doing. So I think me being, I was regularly, you know, I'm in Ferguson, I'm in Florida, I'm on CNN talking truth to power or MSNBC or somewhere. That's...
That became, and this is around like the advent of Twitter and kind of a social media presence, barring people up. I used to be on Twitter, you know, talking about what's happening and examining what's happening, asking questions. And those were, that was me, that was my real self. And I would go to work and do this other thing. You always are like, okay, I don't wanna become, I don't wanna be Kramer, you know, only one thing.
in success, these are good problems to worry about, but anytime I kind of worried about a Jermaine, I'm like, oh, is this, God, are people only going to see me this way? People didn't. They didn't, and they don't, and I'm not. And if I never spoke or lived or had interest in any other space and I only did that, it would be a larger concern. But that never, I don't think.
You know, I'm probably the last person, you know, I'm biased and I only see life through my eyes, but it never landed as a actual fear or concern. I was aware of it. I'd have to be, I'm a strategic person. I'd have to be oblivious to, you know, I care too much about strategy and affecting change and frankly being able to provide for myself and my family.
to be ignorant to that possibility, but I'm too multi, I'm too interesting and interested for any thinking person to peg me as one thing, certainly not the one thing that is by definition not me. And that affects the way in which we form that character.
Jermaine (55:33)
Yeah.
jesse (55:43)
co-wrote many lines and storylines, and we have such an amazing writing crew on there that was really wide open to long, long conversations about what this guy, this is a black surgeon, this is a biracial surgeon whose white side is a huge part of the story, and whose mom is the Debbie Allen on that show. And I learned, New York Times did an article or interviewed me and told me I was actually the first biracial surgeon in TV history. And what does that mean? And I was like, what? That can't be, is that true? I didn't.
What does that even, okay, what is that? The amount of people that watch that show and I think the stat was something like 29% of women in medical school at whatever year this was, probably 10 years ago, credit Grey's Anatomy with inspiring them to even go into the field. A field that had that many black characters with agency, power, and a humanity, and a family.
Jermaine (56:34)
Wow.
jesse (56:42)
on that show. It was a real right place for me to learn and watch directly every Thursday night the impact of story. You know, I was certainly impetus for bringing in storylines about police accountability and misconduct. And, you know, we did stories around how Black women are treated in hospitals and gaslit and ignored about the different pain threshold expected different medications that you can't give to us to give to others because you're not aware of, you know, how physiologically.
and biologically it affects people. It was still a classroom of sorts.
Jermaine (57:18)
Yeah, it is. That really goes back to that point. Yeah, you said that about like how film, it is a classroom. It really, because that's where you, and it's the largest classroom because that's really where a lot of people are only gonna see things through film or maybe they might pick up a book, but like you're meeting people where they are. And really.
jesse (57:35)
Yeah, it can be, I should say it can be, it can be if you make it. Cause you could also, as most people do frankly, coast and just do what's the script, okay, just do that. But I should give myself some credit. I made sure like all this shit matters. I'm representing us at all times and how can this apply? What are we carrying away with us? How are we interacting with each other? What are my characters dynamics with the other black characters on the show, et cetera. So.
Jermaine (57:46)
Mm-hmm.
jesse (58:05)
Um, yeah, yeah. My interest, you know, as soon as when I, when I finally did leave the show, I did the opposite. I went on Broadway and I did a lot of other, I've been doing a lot of other different things. And I think that to your, you're kind of wondering about Daniel, who I don't know. I think that there's, we could, we could guesstimate, are they trying to over-correct or correct something?
Or also is this my first time seeing them display an interest beyond the thing they've always been known for? Right? Like, intent can't be discerned, but I know that when I left the only acting job I ever really had, I had all these interests stacked up. I had to go do them, and by definition they're going to be very different from the thing I've already done. I already did it. So, it kind of almost doesn't... Yeah, it doesn't necessarily...
Jermaine (58:37)
Mm.
jesse (59:01)
matter why? Does it work and does it play? Is there enough fuel in the tank for that to have legs?
Jermaine (59:09)
Yeah, I appreciate that perspective. And I can't leave this conversation without talking to you and going back to that, that BET award speech, man. There was so much that you said there. Um, just remember that line where you were like, we've been floating this country on credit for centuries, man. Like, can you just, can you go back just to that moment real quick, man? And like, cause if you have, anybody hasn't seen that it's, I'm sure it's on YouTube. I mean, uh, Jesse gives this very.
jesse (59:19)
Mmm.
Jermaine (59:37)
profound and moving speech at the BET Awards. Pretty sure, I mean, it was definitely a viral thing, man, but like just in the moment of giving that speech, like, you know, where were you at then, man, when you gave that?
jesse (59:55)
It's interesting because where I was at and my lived experience in that moment.
was pretty different than everything that transpired after. It was certainly not, I won't say not expected the reaction. It wasn't even considered the reaction. I had been for context on TV in some form or another pretty frequently in those years. Post Trayvon, Mike Brown.
traveling and listening more importantly than speaking, but being involved. So we're in that context and flow. And I was off doing a movie in Atlanta actually, and really siloed, focused, pretty dark, isolated role. And I got the call that I was being honored in this way and pretty important.
um, acknowledgement with a incredible legacy by the people of Belafonte and Denzel and the people that won this award. So it's meant something to me, most importantly coming from us. So, uh, I certainly, uh, looked forward to that. I also looked at it as an opportunity, um, not just for us, but for the globe, because I know that Viacom owns BET and that this is going to be
broadcast not just on BET where people are going there for a reason to watch it but Viacom owns Comedy Central and VH1 and MTV and comedy and all these other networks or other people that didn't sign up for are gonna hear this so Let's take advantage and all of this is about
being efficient, using your opportunity, whether it's personal or public. And I just, you know, kind of blacked out and barred them up. I had kind of like, I had a sense of what I wanted to say, for sure, what I wanted to make of the moment. Really, you know, how do you speak in a language that connects directly to the thousands of people that are in a room that is also
accessible but a little bit ahead of hundreds of thousands and millions of others and it turned out to be a global kind of thing.
And to make it last in a way that is not just nonfiction, that is not just straightforward, it's poetic and creative. And I still, if I'm being honest, don't think it's been really fully understood or broken down. It is, there's a lot of thought and critique in there both inside and outside of our community. So.
I don't know, you know, that it was, I was kind of, I just talking to my talking to us, you know, talking with us. It felt it just felt good and right. I flew my parents out, you know, and they're not together. They've been divorced a long time, but I flew them out to be there for that. It was their award. Anything that I get is, you know, it's they got. And so it was it was peak fellowship and community. And
Jermaine (1:02:59)
Yeah.
jesse (1:03:23)
an act of just a deep love, you know, and when I love language, I love art, my life has been transformed time and time again by the great writers of our time. You mentioned Toni Morrison or Nikki Giovanni or William Carlos Williams. I love poetry. I love creative, you know, you go to, again, hip hop has many of them. So I was...
joining a tradition that is entirely, that has had a huge impact on my life. I just, you know, so I just kind of did the damn thing. Bar for bar though, if I ever hear it, I will say it stands up. It was a pretty special.
Jermaine (1:04:07)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think whenever I mean, it's a historic moment. I mean, dare I say, man, because, you know, we're in the here and now. Right. We don't always look at things as history. Even even historians, man, a lot of them don't really touch anything past like the 1970s, 80s, you know, it was more. But I think whenever we go back through, man, like the modern moments of.
jesse (1:04:27)
Mm-hmm
Yeah.
Jermaine (1:04:36)
activism of black moments if we were just going to have a highlight reel of like, hey, this is something that was very impactful. It resonated with a lot of people. I mean, yeah, you're definitely dropping some bars in there, man. That hip hop influence came through for sure, man. But it was resonant in that way, but it was deep. You know what I mean? Because that's what hip hop is, right? It's going to hit you on the surface and then just barrel deep and stay with you, man. Just some of the things that you said and the truth that you said.
jesse (1:04:50)
You know what, Jermaine?
Yeah.
When, yeah, when people break down a lyric, when people break down a lyric later, like, yo, but yeah, there's a triple entendre there, there's a whatever, I think that to kind of fully curl this around in terms of themes we've been touching on today, all of that can only happen with a deep exposure, understanding and appreciation for our history. For, you know, the content of that expression that night was about our past, about our present, and also
making a commitment to our future, what's gonna happen, what can happen, how it's gonna be, acknowledging black women in that way for past sacrifice and commitment, and what we're gonna do. It didn't have some meeting with everybody and we all agreed that we're gonna do it, but you gotta speak things into existence and do your best to fulfill these promises. And this is the, you know, the...
History affects our future because it makes it marks you somewhere and it marks what you can be capable of. And it doesn't exist without that. And I think that is that's the promise. That's the promise and the thank you that it makes.
Jermaine (1:06:20)
I appreciate it, man. Well, Jesse, I think you're so glad to have you on, man. I don't leave me with a lot to think about, but I think that you embody the type of integrity that people yearn to see more from public figures. I don't think you're just about making these statements. I mean, anybody who listens to this, I think you could see you're about living it and breathing it, standing firm in your truth. And again, I think we're in this age where celebrity activism can kind of feel superficial and sponsored by Nike and sponsored by Coca-Cola.
jesse (1:06:48)
Yeah.
Jermaine (1:06:50)
part and I think your commitment to social justice, to racial justice isn't just a byproduct of your fame but your fame serves as a platform for your deep-seated dedication to equality and change man so I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. Appreciate you.
jesse (1:07:06)
Thank you, fam. Thank you very, very much. Appreciate the platform, your listeners, and your work. I bought Humanity Archive early and have bought it several times as gifts for others. And to see you be able to build on that in a way that's accessible, reachable across generations is dope. It's an example of how to activate on top of ideas and academia and bring things to life. So I look forward to doing that.
doing that myself and doing it together with you in the future.
Jermaine (1:07:39)
Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
jesse (1:07:43)
Alright y'all.
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEIn the heart of the Pacific, a warrior danced with destiny to unify a fragmented realm. King Kamehameha the Great, a figure as complex and commanding as the Hawaiian islands he would come to rule. From his daring conquests to his political brilliance, this episode unravels the myth and the man, set against a backdrop of gods, warriors, colonialism, and the unstoppable forces of nature.
Grab one of our overlooked history coursesDive deep into the stories that textbooks left behind. Grab one of our overlooked history courses today and uncover the untold narratives that shaped our world.
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The Titan of Hawaiian HistoryKing Kamehameha the Great isn’t just a figure from the dusty pages of history books; he is a towering legend, whose ambitions and achievements resonate through the Hawaiian Islands like the rumble of a distant volcano. Known for his pivotal role in unifying the islands, his saga is a vibrant canvas of prophecy, power, and political savvy. This article dives deep into the thrilling exploits of Kamehameha, exploring his strategies, his battles, and the indelible mark he left on Hawaiian culture and governance.
The Prophecy and Early YearsBorn Under a Star of Greatness
In the tempestuous period of Hawaiian history, a baby was born, destined to change the islands forever. His birth, surrounded by omens and marked by the stars, was prophesized to herald the rise of a great leader who would unite the Hawaiian Islands. This sense of destiny fueled every step of his rise to power.
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Secrecy and Survival: From his earliest days, Kamehameha’s life was shrouded in secrecy. To shield him from those threatened by his destined greatness, he was spirited away to be raised in the hidden folds of the islands. These formative years, steeped in the lore and warrior skills of his ancestors, sculpted Kamehameha into a leader of unmatched resilience and vision.
This Kamehameha statue stands in front of Aliʻiōlani Hale (home to the Hawaiʻi State Supreme Court) across from ‘Iolani palace.
Clash of Cultures: Captain Cook’s ArrivalWhen Worlds Collide
The year 1778 marked a seismic shift for Hawaii with the arrival of Captain James Cook. This wasn’t merely a meeting of East and West; it was a collision of worlds. Cook’s ships, bearing strange flags and even stranger men, brought with them a mix of marvel and menace, forever altering the course of Hawaiian history.
- Echoes of Change: Cook’s arrival introduced firearms, iron, and foreign diseases, but also concepts of global politics and trade. Kamehameha, a keen observer, quickly grasped these new tools and ideas, weaving them into his strategy to craft a new future for his people.
Leadership and Vision: Uniting the IslandsA Conqueror’s Chess Game
The quest to unify the Hawaiian Islands was no reckless charge into battle; it was a masterful game of strategy, alliances, and decisive strikes. Kamehameha’s campaigns were marked by bold maneuvers and shrewd negotiations, ensuring his legend grew with every island that fell under his sway.
- Innovations in Warfare: Adopting Western military technology, Kamehameha turned cannons and muskets into instruments of change. These tools did not merely bring destruction but also order, as they were pivotal in his successful sieges and battles across the archipelago.
The Battle of Moku'ohai: The First Test of PowerTriumph Through Turmoil
The Battle of Moku'ohai was a decisive conflict that tested Kamehameha's mettle as a leader and warrior. Fought on the rugged terrains of the Big Island, this battle pitted Kamehameha against rival chiefs in a fierce struggle for supremacy. His victory here not only solidified his status as a formidable leader but also marked the beginning of his ascendancy in Hawaiian politics and warfare.
- Strategic Mastery: Kamehameha's use of terrain and his understanding of his opponents' tactics showcased his superior strategic thinking. This battle was crucial in demonstrating his capability to lead and inspire his warriors, setting the stage for future conquests.
Trade and Diplomacy: The Tools of EmpireNavigating New Waters
Kamehameha was not only a warrior but also a savvy diplomat and trader. Recognizing the potential of the new global connections brought by European ships, he engaged in active trade, exchanging Hawaiian sandalwood and other local goods for valuable foreign technology and weapons. This not only boosted the Hawaiian economy but also strengthened his military capabilities.
- Diplomatic Engagements: By forging alliances with European traders and other Pacific leaders, Kamehameha expanded his influence far beyond the Hawaiian Islands, ensuring his kingdom a place in the wider global context of the 18th and 19th centuries.
Governance: A Rule of Brutality and CompassionThe Dual Edges of Power
Kamehameha’s rule was an intricate balance of harsh realities and visionary policies. His reign was stern, marked by the swift quelling of rebellion, yet also enlightened, as seen in his landmark legal reforms that protected the common people.
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The Law of the Splintered Paddle: Born from an incident on the battlefield, this law exemplifies Kamehameha’s complex legacy. It guaranteed safety to those who did not bear arms, embedding a sense of justice in Hawaiian law that outlived his reign.
On November 24, 1816, artist Louis Choris painted "Tammeamea" aboard the Rurik in Kailua Bay. He later altered the portrait of Kamehameha posthumously in 1822, known as "Kamehameha, King of Sandwich Islands," kept at Honolulu Museum of Art.
Cultural Impact and PreservationKeeper of the Flame
Even as he forged a unified state, Kamehameha stood as a staunch protector of Hawaiian culture. He championed the rituals and traditions of his people, ensuring that their spiritual and social fabric was not eroded by the tides of change.
- Institutional Support: Kamehameha established schools that taught traditional Hawaiian crafts, music, and chants, thus ensuring that these practices were not just preserved but integrated into the daily life of his people.
Kamehameha’s Heirs: Sustaining the KingdomThe Legacy of Leadership
Kamehameha's foresight in leadership extended to his succession planning. Understanding the importance of a stable transition, he carefully prepared his heirs to take over the kingdom, ensuring that his vision for a unified Hawaii would endure beyond his lifetime.
- Education and Preparation: He invested in the education of his sons and nephews, ensuring they understood not only the mechanics of governance but also the responsibilities of leadership. This preparation helped sustain the kingdom's stability and prosperity long after his death.
The Monarch’s Lasting EchoKing Kamehameha’s passing was marked by an outpouring of grief, reflecting the deep connection he had forged with his people. His legacy, however, continued to shape Hawaii, inspiring a resurgence in Hawaiian cultural pride and autonomy. Today, his vision reminds us of the power of leadership and the enduring impact of a unified national spirit.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
- The Napoleon of the Pacific by Herbert Henry Gowen (1919)
- An Account of the Polynesian Race: Its Origins and Migrations, and the Ancient History of the Hawaiian People to the Times of Kamehameha I, by Abraham Fornander and John G. Stokes (1878)
- History of the Hawaiian Islands by James Jackson Jarves (1843)
- Volcano Watch — 1790 was a bad year at Kīlauea, usgs.gov, 08/12/2021
- Ruling Chiefs of Hawaiʻi Revised Edition by Samuel Kamakau (1961)
- The historic town of Lahaina, and its legacy, is in ashes, nytimes.com, 08/12/2023
- How to kill a god: The myth of Captain Cook shows how the heroes of empire will fall, thegaurdian.com, 01/18/2022
- Transforming Hawai‘i: Balancing Coercion and Consent in Eighteenth-Century Kānaka Maoli Statecraft, jstor.org, (2018)
- A Brief History Of Sexual Identity In Hawaii, buzzfeed.com, 11/12/2013
* EPISODE TRANSCRIPT Let me ask you, when you hear Hawaii, what do you envision? Palm fringed beaches, all inclusive resorts, golden sands and crystal blue waters, tiki bars, hula dances, maybe even tropical breezes. Now you wouldn't be wrong, but it's not the whole story. Today, we're going to go beyond the postcards, beyond the cliches to meet the warrior king.
who united the islands, King Kamehameha the Great. But before we get into the history of King Kamehameha the Great, let me begin with a more recent story. I want you to picture this. It's 2008 in the heart of Honolulu and an angry crowd is gathering in front of a grand architectural marvel, the Ayalani Palace. And here's a fun fact, it is the.
only former royal palace on American soil. Its Corinthian columns rise like mighty palms, its broad lanai's overlook royal grounds shaded by century -old trees, its real interior still echo with the strains of real gatherings and solemn state affairs. And this crowd has gathered there to call for the sovereignty of the Hawaiian Islands. Why, you ask? Well, there's some things you have to know. The
Hawaiian islands were annexed by the United States in 1898, not through a mutual agreement, but in a contentious move. The paradise we know today as the 50th state of the US didn't officially become a state until 1959. More than 60 years after annexation, that's how contentious it was. And this history of forced annexation has always been a contentious matter and that's
why many native Hawaiians today continue to fight for their sovereignty, tracing their stand to King Kamehameha the Great. So today, let's embark on a journey in the footsteps of King Kamehameha, the warrior king, a visionary leader who, in a series of bold and unexpected moves, brought together the eight major islands of the Hawaiian archipelago under one rule. It is one of the most interesting and fascinating cultures that I've been able to study.
and this story of Kamehameha as a story that transcends mere conquest, it's a tale woven with the threads of power and ritual and community.
and strategic alliances yet. At the heart of Kamehameha's legacy lies an enduring peace, one marked by wisdom and cultural preservation, and a unity that has been both resilient and persistently fragile. And if you remember nothing else from this story, remember this. King Kamehameha's reign laid the foundations of modern Hawaii.
and his indomitable spirit continues to resonate through the islands, a testament to the complex and nuanced tapestry of Polynesian history and identity. As we venture into the life of King Kamehameha, a figure that embodies the spirit and the strength and the wisdom of the Hawaiian people, you and I are embarking on a journey that is not without its controversies.
And now let's pause for a moment because there's something we need to dig into here. Something that's more than just a footnote in the story. I want to go back real quick to this wound, to the scar on the soul of Hawaii. And it just can't be ignored. This illegal occupation by the United States. Let's just dig just a little bit more into that. Do some more building here because I am making the assumption that you are alien to any knowledge of Hawaii or its history. Let's talk more about this.
living, breathing controversy that reverberates in the hearts of Hawaiians to this day. Are you with me now? Let's take a step back and look at how the Hawaiian kingdom and internationally recognized sovereign nation was overthrown. The meddling of foreign interests, the undermining of a culture and a people. This isn't just history. It's an injustice that resonates. Think about it. Imagine having your land in your home taken away from you under the shadow of gunpoint.
tell you the story. It's the late 19th century in Hawaii is an independent kingdom, lush and sovereign, but American businessmen, sugar bands mostly have their eyes set on this prize. They want Hawaii's resources and strategic location, but they can't just snatch it up. So they get creative. In 1893, they orchestrate a coup aided and abetted by US minister John L. Stevens and a contingent of US Marines, Queen Luleo Okulani,
Seeing the armed forces at her doorstep, she opts for peace over bloodshed and temporarily relinquishes her throne under protest. She believes that the U .S. government will do the right thing and restore her to power. But the plot thickens. Despite President Cleveland's attempt to reinstate the Queen, Congress has other plans. So in 1898, amidst the fervor of the Spanish -American War and the allure of Manifest Destiny,
Hawaii is annexed through a joint resolution bypassing the usual treaty requirements and ignoring the will of the native Hawaiians. And just like that, the independent kingdom becomes an American territory, not through mutual agreement or international law, through force and a cocktail of greed, manipulation and geopolitical strategy. That's what happened here. And so I want you to understand this, this occupation of.
Hawaii is not this bygone event. It's a festering wound and it's a chapter in history that has never been closed. And it's a struggle for recognition and reparations and for justice and for the right to tell one's own story. And the story of King Kamehameha is more than, than a tale of a great leader. It's a symbol of a people's dignity, of their identity, of their unbroken connection to their land. And that my friends, I think is something worth fighting for. As I was putting together this episode, I thought about what we lose when we go then from
oral indigenous histories to those same stories being told through the western lands. You and I were explorers, we're navigators, and we're trying to reach the essence of a story that's not just historical but deeply personal to an entire people and in this quest, I had inherent challenges. My pronunciations of names and places may falter, nuances might escape my grasp, cultural insights,
could remain just beyond my reach. Even then when stories pass from one culture to another, from one heart and mind to another, they lose something. That's an unavoidable truth. Think about it like this. It's like trying to capture the full essence of a symphony in a single note or the vastness of the ocean in a wave. We're gonna lose something in this process. But also remember that waves are part of the ocean. So in this telling and retelling,
and seeking to understand, we gain something too. We connect not just with the past, but with each other and with our shared humanity. And that is what our attempt is here in this Humanity Archive project.
So imperfect as it may be, let's move forward with this story. And by the way, I put this episode together in August of 2023 and real time events underscore the vitality of this history. Wildfires and Lahaina fan by Hurricane Dora have destroyed some of the oldest buildings in that city. And this is where King Kamehameha, the great once made the capital of the Hawaiian kingdom.
The same place saw its people diving into the ocean to escape the flames. A vivid reminder that the past is always present, that our history continues to shape our lives and that the place where Kamehameha the Great once ruled still bears the marks of his legacy. Now let's zoom out a bit. The Hawaiian archipelago is a breathtaking ensemble of eight main islands spanning an area of 6 ,000.
424 square miles if you count the uninhabited islands, islets and atolls, and this is where the story of King Kamehameha the Great unfolds. In Hawaii is a tapestry of natural beauty sculpted by the hand of time. It's a land crafted by molten lava. Volcanoes rise and fall there, ever -changing landscapes abound that resonate with the heartbeat of the earth, from bogs to rainforests to coastal shrubs, the
Original inhabitants are thought to have come from the Marquises Islands, and these farmers and fishermen were explorers. Traversing the ocean as early as 1200 BCE, Polynesian oral history attests to a second -plan migration around the 6th century, where voyagers traveled up Tahiti in double -hulled canoes 80 to 100 feet long with mast and large triangular sails.
Now you really gotta wrap your mind around this idea of maritime people and island dwelling cultures like the Polynesians or maybe even the Vikings. They're not just people living near water, they're people who could just walk outside and see the ocean as their front yard. See the sea as their grocery store, their highway and their mythological playground. Just imagine that your entire world is framed by the endless horizon of the sea.
Now you think they'd be isolated, right? They'd be cut off. But here's the kicker. These people are the original globalists, the OG explorers. They hop on boats and suddenly they're the FedEx of culture, the Amazon Prime of ancient trade routes. So the Polynesians, these aren't just island hoppers. These are astronauts of the ocean navigating by stars and swells and seabirds. They're connecting dots across the Pacific long before GPS and Google Maps.
And here's the weird, almost poetic part. They're both isolated and connected, both the keepers of unique, untainted cultures and the couriers of global exchange. It's a paradox, a beautiful mind -bending paradox. They're like the neurons of the Earth's geography, firing signals across oceanic synapses, making the world just a little bit smaller, a little more known every time they set sail. So the next time you think about island dwelling,
Maritime communities don't just picture a fisherman casting a net, picture a web of connections, intricate, complex and ancient stretching across the blue expanse of our planet's lifeblood, the ocean. But now let's zoom out even more, pull the camera back and what do we see? We see again these volcanic islands born from the Earth's fiery rays jutting out like the jagged teeth of some cosmic beast from the depths of the Pacific.
Hawaiian Islands didn't just appear, they were forged in the crucible of geological violence, a testament to the Earth's ever -changing, ever -dramatic nature. Now enter Kamehameha I, a ruler in a land where the ground beneath your feet could, at any moment, decide to reenact its own explosive birth. We're talking about a place where the goddess of fire,
Pele isn't just a myth, people believe that she's a living goddess of fire, creator of the islands, a living force that can manifest her wrath in a plume of ash in a river of molten rock. Take the 1790 eruption of Kilo -Ea. This isn't just a geological event, it's a cosmic drama, a clash of elements. We can't take nature out of the story at all. During this eruption, ash clouds billow like the smoke of a battlefield and the roars of
The eruption are the battle cries of the earth itself. And here's where it gets dark, almost Shakespearean in its tragedy. We're talking about 400 lives lost in this 1790 eruption, not just as statistics, but stories frozen in time, people frozen in time, picture bodies found in the aftermath, some clutching their loved ones as if their final act was an attempt to shield them from the apocalypse. And think about this, the heat was so intense that it froze them in their final moments like
statues in a garden of despair, and then you've got ballistic blocks that shoot out of these volcanoes the size of a grown man hurled half a mile from the eruption site. You can still find them there. Keaua, chief of the Puna district, leading a band of 250 Hawaiian warriors across this summit of Kilauea. They're not out for a Sunday stroll. They're marching to face off against Kamehameha's army. And as they're marching,
They get caught in what can only be described as nature's own weapon of mass destruction, this high velocity explosion cloud, a torrent of volcanic steam and gases hot enough to sear your lungs from the inside out and it does. And about 80 of these warriors suffocate, their lungs scorched by the earth's breath. This is seen as a sign by the gods in favor of Kamehameha. There's even more to this story. The survivors leave behind their foot.
in the muddy ash like eerie echoes of a battle that never happened. And these footprints are still there by the way, frozen in time, you can go see them right now. It's like a grim hiking trail. So when you think about these island dwelling communities, you've got to see the whole picture. Got to see fishermen and warriors and gods and goddesses and creation and instruction and nature. And all of this is dancing on a stage set by the earth's most primal forces.
This is a cosmic drama where humans and gods and the earth itself are characters in a story that's still being written. And speaking of gods, a dominating feature in this story is the spiritual beliefs and the divine power and the rights, the deities and rituals of the Hawaiian people. In the West, we're used to this monotheistic model, right? One God over seeing everything like a celestial CEO, but in Hawaii, it's a divine democracy.
a pantheon where gods are as numerous as the stars. You got Kane, the god of creation, sitting atop like the chairman of the board. Then there's Lono handling everything from clouds to agriculture. Then there's Ku, the god of war and the rising sun. But then there's tens of thousands more. In fact, you see in polytheism, divinity is everywhere. It's in the ant crawling on the ground. It's in the Oia.
the trees that are believed to cry out in pain when cut. There are the Omakua, the middle managers in this divine corporation, if you will, but let's be serious. These gods are not just characters in a story. They are part of the fabric of Hawaii, deeply embedded in the land and in the seeds. The Hawaiians, these gods were not remote or abstract. They're present in the...
tangible elements of the world in the crashing of a wave and the eruption of a volcano and the rustle of a forest. Every fishing expedition was a negotiation with the gods, every harvest, a blessing in every battle, a calculation of spiritual forces. The gods represented natural phenomena. Yes, but they were also bound up in the social and moral order. Disrespecting them wasn't merely bad luck. It was an ethical and social transgression that could have dire consequences for the community.
These gods are not figures of the past. They continue to hold significant spiritual and cultural value today for Native Hawaiians. Engaging with these gods is engaging with their own sense of identity and place in history. It's also a way of acknowledging the expertise and wisdom embedded in generations of tradition.
In Western thought, the boundary between the sacred and the secular, the divine and the mundane is often rigid, but in the Hawaiian cosmology, that boundary is porous. Warriors did not just fight with physical weapons, but also with oli, chants, or pule, prayers, channeling the divine into the human realm.
So in the face of volcanic eruptions or cataclysmic battles, the boundary between human and divine didn't just blur and dissolve. Humans were not mere spectators in a cosmic drama, but active participants influencing and influenced by gods and natural forces alike.
Now let's pivot to the human side of the story again, Polynesian society. Now we have to be honest, this isn't just some egalitarian utopia. It's stratified. Take the kawa, for example. These are the untouchables of Hawaii living on reservations like the Native Americans, but in a tropical paradise, a dark twist, isn't it? And get this, they are the go -to class for
human sacrifices. I think it is important to add some nuance to this to ensure that we talk about the cultural and spiritual context. Sacrifices in Hawaiian society weren't seen as acts of savagery. They were seen as deeply spiritual practices rooted in a broader cosmological view. They elevated spiritual power and were aimed at honoring gods and ancestors, but...
It's still hard to wrap your mind around human sacrifices, isn't it?
That grim lottery where the most vulnerable are always picked. It's not just the Hawaiian thing. The Celts did it, the Romans, they did it. Well, eventually they found human sacrifice to be terrible and abhorrent and then they switched over to ritual killing. But of course, most people know about the Aztecs who did it.
And we might think that we are very far removed from that, but in our society, even our executions often target the marginalized. It's like society has this dark underbelly, a shadow that we just can't seem to escape no matter how much we claim to have evolved. So the kawa, again, they're separated, they're segregated, they're forbidden from marrying outside their class. And if a child was,
born from a union with a commoner or a chief and a cow, then that child was dashed against a rock. No culture has a monopoly on horrible practices and behaviors. It's definitely a dark thread. Now let's dig a little deeper into this class system because you also have the Makai Inana, the backbone of the islands. This is the working class. These people are...
Similar to serfs in medieval Europe, the social system is set up like feudalism. And so you have to remember that in that system, your life is not entirely your own. So you have to picture this working class and you've got this plot of land, right? But this land is not a gift. It's more like a lease from your chief who's acting as a landlord. And you're not just tilling the soil and enjoying the fruits of your labor. You are forking over up to two thirds of everything you produce.
That's like working from January to August and handing all that income straight to your boss. There was the saying that the chief is a shark on land to be denied nothing. And then you're also obligated to work six days a month on whatever projects that the chief has. We're talking about manual labor, construction, even military service. If things get violent.
So there's this mandatory community service.
And then there's something called kapa. It's a bark cloth that is very close to currency in Hawaiian society. So you're also doling out like 20 pieces of this stuff along with a menagerie of tribute items when the time comes.
dogs, pigs, pickled and raw fish, vegetables, chickens, baskets, mats, nets, cloth, timber, canoes. Even if a chief wanted your wife, then the chief was taking your wife. Nothing was to be denied the chief. This is absolute power we're talking about. And war is happening, often driven by control over land and resources. This was a stark reality, conflicts erupted over.
Everything from water rights to agricultural lands to fishing grounds and control of sacred sites. Some fall for honor. Others fall for power. But we also have to realize that there was family, there was community. There are a lot of deep philosophical concepts in terms of tending the land, in terms of people caring for one another. And then leisure had its place too. Imagine the Ali 'i. These are the high chiefs. This is the royal class. This is the...
Eliten, they had this game where they would race narrow wooden slides down mountainsides on paths up to 4 ,000 feet long, covered in dirt and wet grass. The one who goes the farthest is the winner. Kind of like a mix of bobsledding in a royal procession. And what we're really getting at here is, and exploring is the culture, right? I know that word gets thrown around a lot.
but we're talking about everything from the ways of life to the food to the clothing, the philosophy. And consider the differences between cultures. Consider for instance pork, do a compare and contrast. In ancient Hawaiian rituals, pork symbolized the demigod Kamapua, half man, half pig. So eating pork then was believed to bestow divine power or mana upon the consumer.
Now, contrast this with Islamic beliefs where pork is considered impure and its consumption is strictly forbidden. So what is divine to one group might be foul to another, might be unclean to another, might be devilish to another. To remind her that there is no single way to view the world. There is no one perspective. We see things not as they are, but as we are.
Not gonna be here all day, just meandering through all these fascinating cultural elements, exploring the nuances of human diversity and Hawaiian culture. But I want to share with you just a few more things I found enthralling, things that are gonna keep helping us to build this world before we really dive deep into what I would call the second part of this. We're really gonna tell the story of the life of Kamehameha. But I really want you to know more about the world that he.
lives in and I hope that you're able to start to get this picture of the Hawaiian islands in your mind.
So let's talk then about the arts, music and dance, for instance, they weren't just for Saturday nights. They were a way to preserve history, to honor the gods and express every human emotion from love to grief. In terms of dress, we had the mallow for men and the powwow for women. And this isn't just Island Chic. This is a masterclass in environmental awareness. You won't find any fur coats or button ups, just practical elegance tailor -made for Island life.
Think too about cultural differences, right? Like in America, in the Western society, a woman couldn't walk around shirtless with her breast out without getting harassed, without getting accosted, without drawing some sort of sexual energy from men. It just really would not happen, but you have these Island cultures who are used to living in this heat.
and where women and men can walk around with their shirts off, totally normal, no stigma, no taboo. So it's just very interesting to compare and contrast cultures if we actually broaden our lens and take the religious worldview off of things or the deep seated philosophical views that we often have that are ingrained within us and just try our best to look at things from different perspectives and.
You think in a society too, as intricate as that of Hawaii, even the most ordinary activities, like where you sleep or what you eat carry profound cultural and spiritual significance, just like in our culture. In terms of relationship, there was a phrase, it was called sleeping here and there, and this was a nuanced way of acknowledging the fluid nature of romantic and sexual relationships and start contrast again with the rigid binaries often assumed by Western perspectives.
Then you had Aikai -poo. This was the sacred eating ritual. It wasn't just about separating genders because women and men ate separately, but it was rooted in a belief system that honored the different realms of influence and power for men and women, respecting each in their own domain, the masculine and the feminine. And while some foods were designated as off limits for women, this wasn't just a simple act of exclusion, but a deep rooted homage to certain male deities and the cosmic balance.
Get this though, the Hawaiian approach to gender and relationships was fluid long before these contemporary debates made this topic an issue. Their acceptance of the mahu, these were individuals embodying both male and female traits. These challenges are modern day preoccupations with gender binaries. Similarly, their open attitude towards all different forms of relationships, be it homosexuality, polygamy, or polyamory, acknowledges the complexity
of human emotions and connections. But then here comes the stern Calvinist preachers, damning everything that doesn't fit into their worldview. And this kind of ethnocentrism has historically wreaked havoc on indigenous cultures, reducing complex belief systems to quote unquote savage practices in need of quote unquote civilizing. Case in point, I'll read you a excerpt from the writing of
Reverend Charles Stewart, who in 1823 had his own choice words about the Hawaiian people. He said quote, their naked figures and wild expression of countenance, their black hair streaming in the wind as they hurried the canoe over the water with all the eager action and muscular power of savages. Their rapid and unintelligible exclamations and whole exhibition of uncivilized character gave to them the appearance of being half man, half beast unquote.
Stewart's words paint the Hawaiians as almost subhuman, stripping them of their complexity and reducing them to caricatures. It's a disconcerting and racist view that showcases not just ignorance, but a deep misunderstanding of a culture that was rich and multifaceted. By defining the indigenous Hawaiian people through his narrow and prejudiced lens, Stewart not only dehumanized them,
but also failed to appreciate the wisdom and the complexity and the humanity that was integral to Hawaiian society. So what can we take from this? What can we learn as archivers of humanity? Well, the Hawaiians understood something about embracing human diversity, about legitimizing natural human behavior, about communing with nature and respecting it. And it's a lesson perhaps that
resonates in our own time and our own struggles with social norms and struggles with gender. They were an ocean away from the rest of the world, but maybe they were centuries ahead in understanding that the human condition isn't about rigid lines, but about those currents that flow in between them. So wrapping up this tour of the social strata of Hawaii, we get to the VIPs of the island, the Ali 'i.
They stood tall, literally they stood taller than the rest of the populace. Like they were stretched by the gods, their height a divine gift. They don garments that were the epitome of elegance and sophistication on the island woven with intricate patterns, with thousands of feathers that told stories older than themselves. These weren't just clothes, they were tapestries of history. Their homes were not mere structures, but sanctuaries adorned with the
Best Craftsmanship.
The canoes they sell were not just vessels but like floating palaces, each plank car with the wisdom of generations and their weapons. They had something called the Leomano. These weren't just tools of war but extensions of their divine right to rule dominion over the land crafted from the fearsome teeth of tiger sharks. Now imagine the allure of this elite class. They're...
beauty not just skin deep but etched into their very bones. Tattoos were very common in Hawaii. Each marking different meaning in someone's life journey. This was what was seen as beautiful. So now that we've set the scene, we've been through some highs and some lows and I think what really stands out is how deeply the Hawaiians were connected to their land and their identity.
They weren't just living on these islands. They were a part of them. And then we come to that part of our story where we truly introduce Kamehameha and we have to introduce him with this concept of, of mana.
It's not merely a word, it's a spiritual force, it's a cosmic currency, a vitality that flows through the very fabric of existence. To have mana is to possess a kind of authority, a power, and a prestige that transcends the mundane and touches the divine. And on the islands that we now call the state of Hawaii, the echoes of mana resonate through the legacy of a man set apart from birth. Kamehameha, the great meaning.
Literally quote, the one who is set apart. His destiny is etched in the heavens and foretold by the prophets. His birth date is highly disputed among historians, but it is said that he was born at the time of Haley's Comet. Comets being huge chunks of ice and meteoric dust that pass by the earth every 75 years.
which would place his birth in the winter of 1748. Some say the stars themselves whispered of the birth of a powerful King. His mother, Kiku Ayu Pauiwa, or Kiku, was a high chiefess of Maui and his father, High Chief Kiyowa of Kona. Kamehameha's lineage was one of royalty, divinity and war, and the blood of two high chiefs then.
coursing through his veins, each endowed with considerable mana and their own right. This was not a power confined to mere inheritance, it was augmented through heroics, through courage, and often through battle, battles that weren't just about conquest but about acquiring more mana. The Light Force did define leadership and wisdom and strength, and so we go to 1758 when
Kamehameha's life began as someone destined to shape a kingdom. His birth was foreseen by a wise kahuna or seer who whispered to the mother, High Chiefess Kiku, that her son would rise and one day he would conquer all rival chiefs. But destiny's path is rarely smooth and fear of the prophecy led an uncle, King Alapa -Anui, a ruler of Helo,
plot the infant's murder. His fears told him that this child, a future warrior, would one day seize his rule. And so, fate then has other designs.
Naoli, a chief of Cahola loyal to Kamehameha's father, escaped with the child, shielding him from the wrath of the king's men. So Kamehameha is hidden in this basket and he remains undiscovered, even if searchers scoured the land for him. And then when the threat receded, he is speeded away to a tranquil valley to grow until the age of five.
Eventually another uncle took the boy to his court and he was christened Kamehameha, the lonely one. A fitting name for one who spent his early years in seclusion and said that he was a quiet child, thoughtful, but shy. Now hold onto your seats for one moment, cause we're going to dive deeper into Kamehameha's life. But first we've got to make a little detour and talk about this Captain Cook.
And trust me, this isn't some random tangent. It's essential to the story. Cook's arrival wasn't just a meet and greet. It was a clash of cultures, a collision of worlds that would forever change Hawaiian history. Captain Cook is this famous European explorer who first touched down on the shores of Hawaii in 1778. And he arrives at a moment ripe with significance.
The festival of Lono was in full swing and Cook's appearance was viewed as a divine intervention. You see the islanders in their reverence and curiosity treated him as a deity. In Hawaiian religion, the god Lono was associated with fertility, agriculture and rainfall and music and peace. And the emblem of Lono is crosswood and kapa. Remember that's the cloth. And that had an uncanny resemblance to Cook's sale. So,
The Islanders related the white skin of Europeans to the whiteness of the moon and the stars, and they thought they were gods. And a quote from the Guardian recollects Cook's arrival and the reaction of the Hawaiian people, it says, quote, the men hurried to the ship to see the God with their own eyes. There they saw a fair man with bright eyes, a high bridged nose, light hair and handsome features. Good looking gods they were.
An elderly, emaciated priest went on board the resolution and led the deities ashore. Thousands fell to their knees as Cook passed by. The priest led the captain to a thatched temple, wrapped Cook in a red cloth, and sacrificed a small pig to him. As the people recited lines from the Hawaii epic, Kumalipu, a Croatian myth." Captain James Cook, this iconic figure of exploration, was a man of contradictions. On the one hand, he's this brilliant cartographer.
sailing into the unknown on the other, a man grappling with the demons, some say of Neurocyphalus and causes everything from grandiosity to paranoia. So Cook and his crew didn't just come for exploration. They came and they acted like conquerors in paradise. They tore down a temple and used its sacred wood for fires and turned the palace into their personal observatory.
but on this hedonistic spree. But these so -called gods abused their divine status, leaving scars on both the land and its people. In some accounts, Cookie is shown to have a conscience. He faced several mutinies when he discovered people were getting sick from his crew and he confined them to the ship because he didn't want to spread it. Eventually, Cook sails away, but fate's a funny thing because a storm hits, forcing him to turn his back. And he anchors again,
But the welcome mat's been pulled. The islanders are suspicious. Why are these strange men back? Why are the gods back? They wonder. Why is their leader so erratic? So when one of Cook's crew dies, the godly facade shatters. The islanders see them for what they are. Mortal men.
And then Cook makes his fatal mistake, angered over a stolen boat, he attempts to kidnap King Kalani O 'Poo. Bad move. The beast transforms into a war zone. Warriors descend armed with iron daggers and clubs and Cook meets his end. His body undergoes a ritual dismemberment stripped down to what the islanders considered the essence of the man. Only his hands and his buttocks. A return to his crew, a grim token.
of a fallen god.
The British response was violent, canons roaring in vengeance and claiming 30 islander lives, and Cook's image then, in history, is whitewashed, heroized in the West. He's portrayed as a martyr for science rather than a deeply -fought individual. So in the wake of Cook's quote -unquote discoveries, the Pacific peoples were dispossessed and decimated, their numbers reduced dramatically by disease that he introduced.
In the wake of Captain Cook's arrival, a new wave of change washed over Hawaii. It was a time when the landscape was shifting with foreign powers seeking to exert their influence over the islands. Calvinist missionaries steeped in their belief of their own spiritual superiority. Their arrival signaled an era of European encroachment, bringing with them not just a different set of values, but also those diseases that we hear about so much that ravage the land.
And the grand chessboard of history, we compare Hawaii's rapid transition from different sovereign nations to one central government under Kamehameha and eventually to a U S state was much less of a bloodbath than you got in North and South America. And that's not to say there wasn't blood, but that's just to say that Hawaii was co -opted through more insidious means.
The Huayen monarchs, seduced by the pomp and circumstance of British royalty, were lured into a web of debt and contractual obligations. This was a calculated theft over years, cloaked in diplomacy and solidified through marriages. It was into this world that Kamehameha was thrust a ruler by birthright. He found himself dealing with foreigners from different corners of the globe, speaking unfamiliar languages.
and often possessing intentions that were anything but honorable. The new era was marked by the complex interplay of different cultures where whiteness was seen as a symbol of authority and the clash of values created a rapidly changing environment. But Kamehameha was no ordinary leader. He was a man whose innate wisdom and common sense allowed him to navigate these treacherous waters. Other chiefs in his kingdom often opposed him, their objectives differing.
from his own, but Kamehameha's leadership qualities saw him through all of these difficult times. Now, before Kamehameha came to power, the Hawaiian islands were a fractured realm marked by divisions and differences with a patchwork of polities and nations being presided over by high chiefs. And so what led to this fragmentation? Well, picture the islands with their diverse landscapes.
From lush valleys to airplanes, from towering mountains to serene beaches, the ecological diversity was a blessing and a challenge. Imagine yourself a high chief commanding over your land, mindful of the resources that fuel your power, yet constrained by the very geography that defines your realm. So the land that you lived on determined how much agriculture you could produce, the population distribution, how you could communicate it.
dictated who you were and who you could be.
So consider the plight of the warrior dependent on the land for sustenance bound by the whims of the terrain. And an army had to navigate not just enemy forces, but the very land itself. So there's urgency in the air, depending on your resources to fight your neighbor for them and your neighbor to defend themselves. And then from that you get these bitter rivalries and
Vengeance and you know how it goes back and forth, right? Stuff lasts for generations. And these islands had, of course, their similarities, a lot of similarities, but each one had different traditions and songs and every polity again has this distinct flavor. And here comes Kamehameha, a child foretold to be a unifier. He's gonna bring all this together. It's never been done before. And we talked about his prophesized birth, this prediction.
So his uncle has a change of heart. Initially, he had seen Kamehameha as a potential threat rival to his own son. But as the years rolled on, he recognized Kamehameha's potential, recognized his unmistakable mana. So born into royalty, exiled for several years, but then returning to the royal court of his uncle, Kamehameha was groomed in the ways of the Alii.
So he's learning, he's learning, he's learning. It's a blend of education and warfare. There was also time for fishing and surfing. Just thinking back to some of those cultural elements. Now, we often think of surfing as some form of entertainment for white beach goers, but the truth is surfing was an indigenous art form. Polynesian tradition, cave paintings from the 12th century depict people riding waves on.
Koa boards, a testament to the rich heritage. So Kamehameha is doing all this. He's learning how to rule, how to fight, wrestling and paddling and boxing and throwing spears and handling heavy stones with slings, all of these rituals. And also paying homage to the gods and ancestors. And then we come to the Naha stones.
you to picture this hulking 7 ,000 pound volcanic rock sitting there right now in front of the Hilo Public Library. Now this isn't just any rock. This is like Hawaii's up caliber, if you will. Anyone who flips this proves that they're worthy, that they're chosen, that they are destined to unify all of Hawaii and no one had ever done this before. So I know this sounds like something out of a
Marvel movie, but this isn't just a trope. We can go back to so many cultures and explore their myths and they have a story like this. So Kamehameha is this young man now and he's towering figuratively and literally. And now the accounts are fuzzy, but around 14 or 17 years old, Kamehameha does the unthinkable. He walks up to this behemoth of a rock and he flips it over. And this act is revealed by the -
Hawaiian language newspaper Hoku o Hawaii in 1915 really brings home the magnitude of how this would be a touchstone for Kamehameha. It says, quote, it became something to always encourage Kamehameha thereafter. And during heated battles on the battlefields to come, the moving and overturning of the Naha stone was always in the fore of his memories. And it was something that always bolstered his thoughts thereafter. There's something intensely human about this story. Young,
prints a heavy stone of folklore and history that transcends geography. Kamehameha began a war then of conquest that would forever out to the landscape of Hawaii, uniting these major kingdoms and districts. So he starts fighting and defeating his rivals, starting this campaign to unite the islands. In the book Shoal of Time, it said that he was quote, tall and physically fearless and move with an aura of violence.
He goes on to say when he was a young man, he already had a considerable notoriety and he paraded it within imperiousness that matched and even exceeded his rank as high chief, unquote. It said that Kamehameha was over seven feet tall and we know that he had the habit of having his warriors hide and wait for him as he took his walks up and down the hillsides and he would instruct them to hurl spears at him of which he would expertly dodge and deflect. This was just a hobby for him. And so just to...
wrap your mind around his athleticism. It said that he was doing this into his sixties. Other reports say he was good natured and he was said to be the most handsome and highly sought after of chiefs receiving gifts and favors from the chief assist who sought him as a lover. And so in the heart of the Pacific and this world where revolution and new beginnings are coming forth, Hawaii was on the cusp of its own change. The year.
Then in 1791, and Kamehameha stands at the crossroads of tradition and modernity.
You have to think around this time, the French revolution is rewriting the social contract in Europe and the United States is taking its first steps as a fledgling nation. And here you have Kamehameha is about to employ Western artillery in traditional Hawaiian warfare. The old world and the new are colliding and it's not in a handshake, but a clash of swords and the boom of cannons. Yes, those cannons, they were more than weapons.
They were harbingers of a new era. Kamehameha knew that to resist this tidal wave of change was to court defeat. So he embraced it. He weaponized it. He used it to forge a kingdom. And let's pause here and consider the cost. The very act of using Western artillery in a Hawaiian context was a concession that the old ways were no longer sufficient. And we can get a glimpse of the old ways of war from teacher and writer Susanna Moore who...
wrote this fascinating book called Paradise of the Pacific, she says, quote, the rules and etiquette of combat were as formalized as those in any medieval European court. Competitions and entertainments, not unlike jousting, were used to further fighting skills, to win admiration and honor, and to encourage the sometimes vicious rivalries essential to upholding morale during battle. All fighting was done in daylight and in a very methodical fashion.
the play style of fighting and the time often determined before the battle. Those chiefs who resorted to less predictable tactics such as night raids and surprise attacks and later guns had a clear advantage. The armies arrayed in crescent formation met on open ground although one warrior could be chosen to fight from each side while the two armies watched nearby.
Fighting, whether between an army or two chiefs, was limited to brutal hand -to -hand combat using slings, spears, clubs, and javelins. Once joined, the grappling fighters were limited to choking, stabbing, and clubbing. Men wore as little clothing as possible. Chiefs wore their bright red, yellow, and black feather capes made in designs of fins, rainbows, sharks, and wings, flung over one bare shoulder, and crested wickerwork helmets onto which hundreds of feathers had been sewn.
To new men, often in squadrons of hundreds, wore foreboding gourd helmets decorated with ferns. No standing army was maintained, but each man kept his simple weapons ready in his house. Women frequently went to war beside men, carrying further weapons, carrying their food and water, tending to the wounded, but also joined the army.
And as the story goes on, Kamehameha captures a John Young, a sailor from the ship Eleanor. And this isn't just a twist of fate. It's a pivotal move that arms Kamehameha with cannons and the knowledge to use them. So with this newfound power, this is when he really sets into motion his conquests to unify the islands. So he sets his sights on Maui.
seeking not just a piece of the island, but its entirety. He gains an unlikely ally in Kea Waimea Wealy.
They form a rival and together they set out and they clash with the Mauian army at Wuliku River. A battle so fierce it earns the name, the damming of the waters. Imagine the horror of the local populace fleeing to the mountains as Kamehameha's cannons roar, turning the river into a gruesome dam of fallen warriors. The Mauian forces are decimated and Kamehameha, rather than
Installing new ruler sets his gaze upon another prize, Molokai, but then his ambitions are interrupted by a rival chief named Keo 'oa. Takes advantage of his absence from Hawaii and ravages his land. So the two engage in a series of battles, neither gaining a decisive victory. And just when it seems like the balance might be tipped, nature intervenes. And this is the story that we go back to in the beginning.
where Kilauea erupts, the volcano kills many of Khmehameha's rivals. And people started to think, wow, must be divine intervention. Khmehameha is chosen by the gods. Khmehameha launches a new offensive. He consults a prophet, builds a temple and prepares for another showdown. And there's more battles. Khmehameha's forces continue to prevail.
And this is where we see that Kamehameha is a man of contrast, a ruler who could be both brutal and just, a warrior who could be both ruthless and strategic, take his treatment of Keo 'oa, his rival turned ally, for instance. He invites him to a meeting only to have him killed the moment he sets foot on land. And it's a very Machiavellian move, isn't it? One that secures his rule, but at a deep moral cost. And yet can we judge him too harshly? I don't know. It was of engagement.
different perhaps he could have done something different but maybe he might not have lived to be the ruler that he was.
The climax comes in 1795 on the island of Oahu in a battle that seems like it's ripped from pages of an epic. Kamehameha drives his enemies over the rim of the Pu 'uaina volcano, punching them to their deaths. You can imagine the horror of bodies plunged into molten lava. Yet the understanding that the human body is mostly water.
and it would react violently to extreme heat so skin and muscle would incinerate almost instantly, leaving only charred remains and bones. War is always brutal, isn't it? And this death is as final as it is horrific. With the chiefdoms falling one by one, all eyes were set on the unconquered islands and Kamehameha, he takes them too. Finally, he conquers everything by 1810, and then something happens as warriors after...
These conflicts, they go into a fit of rage apparently and start attacking the villages of the vanquished, including their families. And this is a moment that'll echo in Hawaiian history because in an act of wisdom and compassion, Kamehameha proclaims this law of the splintered paddle.
And it's a decree that is born from his own life being spared. This is great warrior, right? The seven foot tall warrior. And he almost died at the hands of two humble fishermen earlier. And it taught him the value of sparing life. And this law says, Oh people honor thy God's respect. The rights of people, both great and humble see to it that our aged are women and our children lie down to sleep by the roadside without fear of harm, disobey and die.
Of course you get that last part, disobey and die, but it's the first time in the kingdom's history that the rights of the vulnerable and the weaker recognized. This law now part of the state's constitution became a beacon of human rights, a lesson in the responsibilities inherent in power. What a story, right? Complexities of power and the...
Ever -changing dynamics of leadership, the path to unity was fraught with rebellion and death and tactical decisions in the ever -present specter of failures. Yet Kamehameha navigated these challenges with a Machiavellian acumen, securing not just a kingdom, but a legacy that would echo through the pages of history. And as we exit stage left from the scene of war and island unification, the story does not quite end there. Coming to our final act, the early 1800s, where we see
the island undergoing seismic shifts. There's a transition from this feudal system to capitalism. And you think that will make things easier, right? Well, not so fast. This is a story where richness and poverty and tradition and modernity and gods and men collide and coalesce. So I want you to imagine Kamehameha, this ironclad ruler who united the islands. Now he's growing wealthy and living in grandeur and this opulent mansion. And it's all from sandalwood. It's the...
aromatic gold of the era. Sandalwood was a big deal, like really big. The Chinese craved it, for instance, and it has been deeply ingrained in Chinese cultural and religious systems. It's burning. It's said to be a sacred offering to the gods in China.
cultivating this stuff, let's not romanticize it, the work was backbreaking, we're talking about laboring under the scorching sun, sometimes freezing in the cold winters at night. This was at odds with the indigenous philosophy, Aina, the deep rooted relationship Hawaiians have with the land. Aina is not just soil or territory, it's a sacred bond imbued with life and mind of the spiritual
essence that flows through all things and the cultivation of sandalwood while laborious and exploitative under this new capitalist drive clash with this ancient understanding. So from an indigenous perspective, the land wasn't just a commodity to be harvested, but a living relative that demanded respect and reciprocity. So then you had Hawaiians then working in these dreadful conditions underfed, exploited.
And this is where you can see the pitfalls of capitalism, right? We can see it continuing to evolve as this global chain of economic pursuits that has this class of expendable people and expendable resources and then people's values become expendable. This obsession with consuming goods and goods flooding in from all over the world. And the Hawaiian elite aren't immune to it, they're attracted to the
silks and steel and iron and gold and soaps and tees and cottons and pearls and sugar and spices and fine clothing and also war became more expensive so ushered in a new era of peace and leisure. Kamehameha is holding court at his home and he's walking around in velveteen breeches and a red waistcoat now but I always add to this the cultural erosion right ceremonies like the hula which Hawaiians
held as a sacred dance. We talked about this a little earlier. It's now labeled as erotic. So with the introduction of Western ways of living and goods came the loss of so much Hawaiian culture, severing of spiritual and cultural lifelines. And just going back to the hula, again, this is more than a dance. It's a form of storytelling. It's a religious ceremony. It's a link to an ancestral past.
And so these disparaging views, stereotypes, cause people to start to drop these rituals. And then a lot of times you don't get that back. And so when the forest were destroyed and the sand award depleted, tallow and horses and hides were exported. And as his empire swelled, Soda Kamehameha's opulent taste, he again built this Western style mansion home and it's overlooking the sea. And so he's demonstrating his...
wealth and power to foreigners, but we have to imagine that for many Hawaiians, it sat awkwardly with their traditional notions of leadership because a leader's mana was not just measured by their wealth or military might, but also by their ability to care for their people and their land.
But Command Ma 'az's luxuries raised questions about whether he was fulfilling his roles as a responsible steward of both human and natural resources. But Command Ma 'az, continuing to live his life on his compound, where chiefs and chiefesses and warriors and priests and royal families and servants live with him,
There's foiled assassination attempts against Kamehameha. Sometimes it'll be a jealous partner because remember polygamy and power often breeds ambition and maybe you're a mother who wants your son to be next on the throne and not his brother.
death penalties handed out regularly for infractions. And then you also had these incestuous relationships within these royal families. I wanted to touch on that real quick. People marrying cousins and nieces and chiefesses having affairs with nephews. And this is because in a lot of royal families, in a lot of cultures, marrying within the family was often seen as concentrating power and maintaining the purity of the royal line. So,
power plays and rival houses and affairs of the state are all happening.
Kamehameha is growing old as this Western encroachment continues. And then 1819, Kamehameha dies. And it's not just the end of a singular life, but also the symbolic end of an era, a closing of one chapter and an opening of another, an ever evolving narrative of Hawaii. He was a living bridge between two worlds embodying the duality of tradition and change.
quote, you can seek out all the benefits I have given you and you will find them without number unquote, he murmured as his last breath. As if to remind the living that life itself is an unquantifiable gift, his passing unleashed a torrent of grief so profound that it transcended cultural boundaries.
A tidal wave of mourning rituals was unleashed from the sacrificial deaths of 500 dogs, the cutting and burning of flesh, the cultural expression of sorrow was so potent, it seemed to reverberate through the earth and the sky. And this was not just a Hawaiian mourning, but a human one.
One grief ritual was the knocking out of teeth. People would knock their teeth out and tattoo their tongues. There was also the mingling with strangers and uninhibited sex. It pointed to life's endless cycles of destruction and renewal. Even in death, Kamehameha's mana, his spiritual power, became a matter of intense intrigue. Where were his bones? The very framework that housed his soul, never found. There remained one of Hawaii's
Eternal mysteries, almost as if Kamehameha himself decided that his final resting place should remain unknown forever, keeping his mana, his spirit woven into the fabric of the islands he united. How do we take this story? How do we wrap this up? Well, in our rapidly globalizing world, it is a rare thing for a culture to hold on to its roots in the face of an avalanche of modern influence we see in Hawaii.
This everlasting tug of war between what was, what is, and what could be something invaluable was lost though, and Kamehameha died. Certain purity of tradition and the unity it fostered among the Hawaiian people. And the islands became this meeting place of global cultures. But today there's a resurgence of interest in preserving the best of the Hawaiian tradition from the rekindling of the hula and the native chance, the practice of celestial navigation and sustainable farming. New generations are rediscovering.
reclaiming their heritage, often juxtaposing it with the unavoidable forces of modernization. They hold onto that Aloha spirit, Aloha being this powerful word that summarizes the harmonic, respectful and affectionate interaction one should have with another person or with nature. It's a term that carries both spiritual and social weight in Hawaiian culture. And Kamehameha very much was a man of his time, but he...
also was a man for all times. The duality he embodied, the bridge he was, still stands, the islands he brought together are forever intertwined with his legacy, a legacy that thrives in the hearts and lives of Hawaiians today.
Even as waves of change continue to crash on Hawaiian shores, the footsteps of Kamehameha still echo, carrying forth the wisdom and courage of a leader who not only understood the world he came from, but also foresaw the one yet to come. It's a legacy that teaches us the enduring power of balance between what is lost and what is gained, between the past and the future, between the old ways and the new and so. The story of Kamehameha serves as an eternal testament to the
The beauty of human life, a tale forever woven into the sands and skies of Hawaii.
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEThis is the "Trail of Tears" history left out. Imagine a grueling march from the Chesapeake to Louisiana—over a thousand miles—where Black people were chained and forced to walk. It's a chapter of sheer brutality, yet it's barely a footnote in our history books.
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YES, SIGN ME UP! Uncovering the Hidden Chapter: The Slave Trail of Tears
Much of America’s history is marred by the atrocities of slavery, a truth that echoes through time. While many are familiar with the transatlantic slave trade's cruelties, there exists a lesser-known, yet equally devastating chapter: the Slave Trail of Tears. Over several decades, this forced migration reshaped the lives of hundreds of thousands of enslaved people, marking one of the darkest periods of American history.
A Journey Marked by Sorrow
The cotton boom in the Deep South drove an insatiable demand for labor, triggering a massive, forced relocation of enslaved people from the Upper South. Unlike the singular event many imagine, this was a continuous cycle of pain that lasted for years, involving countless men, women, and children being uprooted from their homes. They were not only marched over a thousand miles to unfamiliar lands but also shipped downriver in conditions reminiscent of the transatlantic crossings, only to be sold again.
Slave traders, including but not limited to infamous figures like Isaac Franklin and John Armfield, capitalized on this demand. Their business operations were vast and ruthlessly efficient, representing just a fraction of the firms and individuals engaged in this trade of human lives. These operations were part of a broader, systemic network that facilitated the constant buying, selling, and relocation of enslaved people across the country, perpetuating a cycle of suffering and separation.
**Franklin and Armfield's Operation: A Lucrative Empire of Despair**
Operating from their headquarters in Alexandria, Virginia, Franklin and Armfield's business was a well-oiled machine of misery. They utilized a network of agents to purchase enslaved people at low prices, who were then marched or shipped to their holding facilities, the most infamous being the "Yellow House" in Alexandria. From there, they orchestrated the transportation of human cargoes via the infamous "coffle" marches or by sea, where the enslaved were packed into ships under deplorable conditions akin to the earlier transatlantic slave trade.
Their operation didn't just rely on the physical movement of enslaved people; it was built on a foundation of psychological manipulation and violence. Families were torn apart, and the enslaved lived under constant fear of punishment, sale, or death. The efficiency of their operation and their ability to suppress rebellion or escape attempts speaks to the chilling effectiveness of their systematized cruelty.
The Trail's Harsh Realities
The journey itself was a harrowing experience for the enslaved, marked by unimaginable cruelty. Shackled in chains, they marched for months, wrested from everything familiar, enduring harsh weather, disease, and violence. The path from the Upper South to the Deep South became a corridor of agony, its routes marked by the graves of those who could not survive the journey.
Echoes of Pain and Resilience
The Slave Trail of Tears stands as a testament to the systemic exploitation and dehumanization of Black people, a reflection of the lengths to which economic interests overrode basic humanity. Yet, it also underscores the resilience and strength of those who endured, whose spirits could not be broken despite the attempts of slave traders and the society that enabled them.
As we delve into this chapter of Black history, it's crucial to remember that the pain and trauma inflicted during this mass exodus are not just historical footnotes but integral parts of the American narrative. They deserve to be acknowledged and remembered alongside the transatlantic slave trade and other significant migration stories.
Why This Chapter Matters Today
Understanding the Slave Trail of Tears is essential not only for comprehending the full scope of slavery's impact but also for recognizing the enduring legacy of these atrocities in today's society. It's a call to remember, to learn, and to ensure that such injustices are never repeated, reinforcing the need for continuous education and dialogue around the painful parts of our history.
As we reflect on this grim chapter, let's honor the memory of those who suffered by committing to a future where history's lessons guide us toward justice and understanding. The Slave Trail of Tears, a story of forced migration and resilience in the face of unspeakable cruelty, is a critical piece of America's past that we must all strive to remember and learn from.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
- They were once America’s cruelest, richest slave traders. Why does no one know their names?
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Retracing Slavery’s Trail of Tears
- PODCAST TRANSCRIPT In 1834, slave trader Isaac Franklin, co -founder of Franklin and Armfield, the largest slave trading firm in the United States, sat atop his horse, armed with a whip and a pistol. He was trafficking in human beings, 200 of them to be exact. Now picture this black men and boys lined in twos with their wrists handcuffed together in an iron chain.
running down the length of 100 pairs of people with no control over where they'd end up. This human caravan, otherwise known as a carpool, was corralled like animals. And behind them, 100 more souls, women and girls, many had babies clinging to them. And behind them were wagons carrying food, clothes, and provisions, and toddlers, and babies too small to walk to 10 hours per day.
All the enslaved were surrounded by armed white men, escaping virtually impossible. What I'm describing to you is the most forgotten migration in American history. The slave trail of tears. People marched 1 ,000 miles and chain coffers of 20 to 100 from the Chesapeake to Louisiana.
or they were herded onto ships that sailed from near Washington, D .C. around Florida and up the Mississippi River to be sold in New Orleans. Historian Edward Ball asserts that, quote, the slave trail of tears is the great missing migration, a thousand mile long river of people, all of them black, reaching from Virginia to Louisiana. During the 50th century,
years before the Civil War, about a million enslaved people moved from the Upper South Virginia, Maryland, Kentucky to the Deep South, Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. They were made to go, deported, you could say. Having been sold, this forced resettlement was 20 times larger than Andrew Jackson's Indian removal campaigns of the 1830s, which gave rise to the original Trail of Tears as it drove tribes of Native Americans out of Georgia, Mississippi, and Alabama.
Jermaine Fowler (02:13.038)
It was bigger than the immigration of Jews into the United States during the 19th century when some 500 ,000 arrived from Russia and Eastern Europe. It was bigger than the wagon train migration to the West. Beloved of American lore, this movement lasted longer and grabbed up more people than any other migration in North America before 1900." Now you all know I'm very interested in highlighting forgotten history and I'm constantly shocked about the things I uncover, but this one was a huge moment of
How does no one know about this? Here you have two of the most prolific dealers in human flesh in American history, Isaac Franklin and John Armfield, guys who might be compared to Hitler and their ruthlessness right here in American history. How are they not household names? Now, I wanna tell you a quick story of just how terrible these people were. They called themselves one -eyed men as euphemisms for their...
genitals because they would write about their endless rapes and business correspondence. They called the women they targeted fancy women signifying age beauty and desirability for sexual abuse. To my certain knowledge wrote Isaac Franklin's nephew James she has been used and that smartly by a one -eyed man about my size age excuse my foolishness.
And this was in a business letter referring to Caroline Brown, an enslaved woman who suffered under this cruelty for about five months.
Can you imagine? And this was just one example bragging about the rape of women was part of the business culture. John Armfield has at least one direct black descendant, Rodney Williams, who shared his story in the book, Slavery's Descendants, Shared Legacies of Race and Reconciliation. It's a little known but fascinating book about the modern day descendants of enslavers and the enslaved to reckon with the pain of a very personal history.
Jermaine Fowler (04:12.974)
Now you might be wondering how exactly these operations worked. Here's how according to historians says quote, relying on a network of headhunters spread across Virginia, Maryland and the district. Armfield would round up enslaved people, holding them in an open air pen behind the house in Alexandria or sometimes in its crowded filthy basement until he'd amassed a sufficient number, usually between 100 and 200.
Then he'd send the group on an arduous 1000 mile march to slave markets in Natchez or New Orleans, or he'd stuff them into one of the company's three massive ships to make the same journey by water. At the peak of their business, the two men were moving roughly 1000 people per year." Unquote.
The slave trail of tears wasn't just a brutal forced migration, it was also a massive business operation. Slave traders like Franklin and Armfield were making huge profits from buying and selling human beings. What does it say about a society when people can profit from such cruelty and exploitation? And we have to look at this not only from a business sense, I'm always interested in what people go through, the pain and not just pain as a bodily sensation perceived in your physical
body parts like a sharp pain in your lower back or from a cut? No, I'm talking about pain as experience and trauma, an experience that scars your consciousness. And if you've lived a while, surely you've experienced some deep pain. And no, I have. Whether from a loss or an injury, it makes you wonder how you could purposefully put someone else through that. It takes a sort of sadistic type of cruelty. Here's one more quote on the pain inflicted by.
Franklin and Armfield, and remember that these were not the only people doing this. Quote, they placed ads in local newspapers seeking enslaved people almost every single day they remained in business. They developed cruel stratagems to boost their bottom line. For example, they designated less space per person on their ships than the transatlantic slave trade vessels. While enslaved people waited in Franklin and Armfield's holding pen in Alexandria,
Jermaine Fowler (06:28.334)
the two men most likely adopted classic techniques employed by slave traders to enhance enslaved people's sellability. That meant feeding their captives large amounts of corn pone and pork to fatten them up, dyeing gray hair black so they look younger, and if an enslaved person's skin was scarred with whip marks, smearing wax into the wounds so they looked healthier." So I just want to point out that black history, as we typically hear it, includes two huge migration stories.
brutal middle passage of the transatlantic slave trade and the mass exodus of millions of black people from the South to the North, from the 1900s through the 1970s. Those looking to escape racism and cash in on the industrial jobs that were popping up in the North and West. But we must always remember this third migration, the monumental tragedy that was.
slavery's trail of tears. We must remember those souls who arrived at their southern destinations broken and depleted, but who held on to the will to survive the mental and emotional hardship of a journey all but a few.
How many Frankliner arm fields were there? Hundreds, thousands, to make up a million people on the slavery trail of tears.
with Dr. Edda Fields Black
**APPLE PODCASTS** **|** **SPOTIFY** **|** **YOUTUBE**Jermaine Fowler interviews Dr. Edda Fields Black, who brings Harriet Tubman down from the pedestal of myth and into the gritty reality of a freedom fighter who knew the swamps like the back of her hand. In her book, she traces Tubman’s footsteps in the Combahee River Raid, framed through her own deep roots in the Gullah Geechee community. Here, Tubman isn’t just a figure of lore, but a flesh-and-blood hero, whose battles and victories still echo in the struggles of today.
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YES, SIGN ME UP!
Be sure to grab a copy of Dr. Black’s book COMBEE: Harriet Tubman, the Combahee River Raid, and Black Freedom during the Civil War’ in this episode we cover:
Harriet Tubman: Beyond the Myth – The Real Story of a Freedom Fighter The Combahee River Raid: Uncover the details of the raid that liberated more than 700 slaves. * Gullah Geechee Ties: Explore Tubman's connections to the Gullah Geechee culture, which played a pivotal role in her methods and strategies. * Heroism and Humanity:* See Tubman in a new light, as a woman of flesh and blood, whose heroic deeds were as complex as they were courageous.
The Power of Personal Connection in Historical NarrativesDr. Fields Black's Unique Insight
With roots deeply embedded in the Gullah Geechee community, Dr. Fields Black offers a unique perspective that brings Tubman’s story to life with an authenticity seldom seen in historical texts.
- Personal Anecdotes: The book is enriched with personal stories from Dr. Fields Black’s family history, providing a deeper understanding of the cultural and emotional landscapes that shaped Tubman.
- A Bridge Between Generations: Learn how the past and present intertwine, making Tubman’s journey relevant to today’s societal challenges.
Understanding the Myths and Realities of Harriet Tubman’s LifeDebunking Common Misconceptions
Tubman is often mythologized in ways that overshadow her true achievements. Dr. Fields Black aims to set the record straight, presenting a Tubman who is both more relatable and more extraordinary.
- The Myth of the Lone Hero: Break down the narratives that isolate Tubman's efforts from the broader context of community and collaborative resistance.
- The Reality of Strategic Genius: Gain insights into how Tubman's planning and foresight led to successful missions, beyond the simplistic tales of escape.
Why This Book Matters NowThe Relevance of Tubman's Legacy in Modern Times
Harriet Tubman’s story is not just a chapter from the past but a continuous inspiration for justice and equality. Dr. Fields Black’s book comes at a critical time, reminding us of the importance of preserving history and learning from it.
- Inspiration for Today: Draw parallels between Tubman’s time and current social justice movements.
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Education and Engagement: Encourage a new generation to explore and reflect on the complexities of history through a more informed and nuanced lens.
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Podcast Episode Transcript Jermaine (00:01)
Joining us today is Dr. Etta Fields Black. She is a brilliant mind in the world of historical scholarship. She's not an average historian. She's a trailblazer who has unearthed the connections between West African rice and the African diaspora. I want you to imagine someone deep diving into the anthropology of rice farmers and the Gullah Geechee culture that I have spent time with myself. And...
She is someone who just goes so in depth into her research. It's mind blowing. And she has a book that she has written called Combi Harriet Tubman, the Combahee River Raid, a black freedom during the civil war. And this book is not just a read, it's a reclamation and an exploration and a proclamation of the brilliance of Harriet Tubman. I want to welcome you, Dr. Fields Black to the Humanity Archive podcast.
Edda Fields-Black (00:55)
Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. Thank you, Jermaine, for inviting me. And thank you for all of your work on recovering the humanity of African-Americans, which has been written out of our history.
Jermaine (01:11)
Absolutely, absolutely. I'm so excited to have you here. And I wanna, before we get into your book, go into your, the core of your research before that, as far as the rice farmers in the Southern United States, you did a very, I mean, you really just dove really deep into this history and its connection to West Africa. Can you tell us a little bit more about your interest in that research and just the connections that you've made?
Edda Fields-Black (01:37)
Yeah, sure. I came by rice through my curiosity about the Gullah Geechee and about my father's family who are from Colleton County, South Carolina, Green Pond and Whitehall. And we found out some more information that maybe I'll talk about later that they're from Beaufort. But what I wanted to know, what I wanted to know is
how the Gullah Geechoo were connected to West Africa, and rice became that prism for me. And I was very curious about how peasant farmers in West Africa developed their, particularly mangrove growing, mangrove rice growing technology before the transatlantic slave trade. And I chose mangroves because it was the closest to the title rice technology that was used in South Carolina and Georgia.
And so I did do a deep dive and one of my specialties is
Expanding the archive, if you will, expanding it in my early work interdisciplinarily. So when those archival sources are not available or they're written by, you know, missionaries, European missionaries, slave traders, colonial officers who don't see the humanity of African and African descended people. How do I find, how do I tell the story through
the words, right, of the people themselves. And so in my first book, I used historical linguistics and oral traditions to tell the story of the rice farmers and how they...
created their technology.
Jermaine (03:33)
That's interesting. And how do you think, I mean, in academia, do you think that the oral record is respected as such as literature? I've written a lot about this and I have found, you know, a lot of times that oral history is not as respected as, you know, literary history. How do you see that?
Edda Fields-Black (03:56)
Well, I think it depends on the subfield. Among Africanists, yes, the oral record is equal, if not more important, because when you're talking about the pre-colonial period, you don't have sources that are written by Africans. They're very, you can probably count them on one hand, right, those that we've been able to find in sub-Saharan Africa. And their whole methodologies, you know.
Scholars have spent decades understanding how to collect them, how to interpret them, etc. I think that in the African American history, the history of the African diaspora, oral histories, as opposed to oral traditions, are also incredibly important. And it's the same issue. The fact that finding sources that are written by...
the people whose history you're attempting to write are very rare, particularly when you go into the colonial period and the antebellum period, you know, sources that are written by enslaved people, even enslaved people telling their stories, slave narratives, you know, and that kind of thing. So I think that it's really about, well, yes, I do think that oral sources are accepted.
as being as credible as written sources. And I think that all historical sources have silences and biases and things that have to be interrogated. And I think this generation of historians, myself included, are much more adept at interrogating all of that.
Jermaine (05:46)
Yeah, I think it's very important to gather the history in such a way where you are also getting the perspective of the people themselves, right? And a lot of Black history that we see is not so much of what the people said about themselves, what other people said about them writing stories and narratives are being created around that. So I do appreciate that this new generation of historians, you know, with more tools at their disposal are able to gather the words of.
Edda Fields-Black (05:48)
Hmm
Jermaine (06:13)
you know, not only Black people, but a lot of marginalized people through history who might not have written down their stories and who have a deeper appreciation for the oral traditions of history where they're passing down the stories from generation to generation in that way. And so connected then to the Gullah culture, I've lived in Savannah, Georgia for about a year and just kind of had the privilege of going back and forth some over to South Carolina. And, you know, I think that you think about these descendants of
enslave people and what really gets me though, and I don't know if you could speak to this, is that the communities are vanishing there, right? You have some 200,000 voices, many of them have had economic constraints, you know, land rights being taken. These are people who are carrying the weight of this history, this unique culture that's fading away and, you know, just the vanishing of the Gullah Geechee. Can you talk to that and this very tragic, I think, chapter...
in history where this is happening and how the past connects to the present with that.
Edda Fields-Black (07:14)
Yes, unfortunately, over the decades, people have been displaced in large part because of heirs property and the way that developers can use heirs property, meaning that when a family member passes, dies without a will, that property transfers to the heirs.
generation after generation after generation you have large groups of family members who are uh... owners of property in common uh... and their laws you know in certain counties that developers only need to get one person in that family group to be willing to sell uh... and the land particularly on the water you know in the sea islands
and has been very coveted by developers seeking to, whether it's housing developments or resort developments, you name it, private clubs, that land is incredibly valuable. And the newest challenge is climate change. The newest challenge is sea level rise and the way that climate change is displacing people because that land is
Jermaine (08:37)
Mm-hmm.
Edda Fields-Black (08:45)
below sea level, quite a bit below sea level. And the increased storms and the increased rainfall, the amount of rainfall, the frequency of rainfall, just the flooding that happens is putting a lot of people who have been able to hold onto their land in peril. And so the Gullah Geechee are very proud people. I'm part of the Gullah Geechee diaspora. And you know.
some the first African Americans to own land. This is a very important history. It's a very important place and it would really be a shame to lose it.
Jermaine (09:26)
Wow. How does that personal connection fuel for you like a deeper sense of urgency when it comes to preserving and advocating for these histories that are endangered?
Edda Fields-Black (09:37)
I tell ya.
At various moments in my career, it has fueled me differently, but it has always fueled me. As I mentioned, my dad was born in Colleton County in Green Pond. He was the last of his siblings to be born in the country, as he would call it.
My grandparents then migrated to Charleston and then to Miami, Florida where I was born and raised. So we're a Miami family with South Carolina roots and you find that up and down the East Coast because people from the Gullah Geechee corridor migrated, you know, in these generations in the earlier 20th century. I was always curious about my grandparents' culture.
you know growing up in miami and hearing their speech patterns which i had were very different from my own seeing that my dad could understand them but didn't speak the way they spoke we would go to their house and be like watching a tennis match we look at them we look at him we look at that my mother my sister and i you know we didn't know what was going on uh... we spent time every summer in south carolina with my great-grandmother
And my mother, who is a historian, attempted to document my dad's family's history. So I went to cemeteries. I spent a lot of time in cemeteries. We also came back for burials. Everyone in my grandmother's generation was buried in Green Pond. Fast forward to me being the rice historian, right?
and working in West Africa. And because I worked in West Africa, I lectured a lot in South Carolina. And I was doing research, this is after my first book came out, doing early research on my second book, which has now become Combi. It went through a couple iterations. And decided on a weekend while I was between two speaking engagements.
that I was going to go to the cemetery and try to start the family history. And I went to the cemetery that I knew, which is owned by the church, which is our family church. And I documented all of the graves again, sort of redoing what my mother did. And I looked around and I thought, well, where are the fields graves? In this entire cemetery, there's only three or four fields.
buried here, one of whom is my grandfather. So I thought, okay, that's, it's always, it always puzzled me that my grandmother's family, the Frasiers, the Richards, would take up the whole church. And my grandfather's family, the Fields, would have a pew, one pew. So I, I had asked our family.
what's the word I'm looking for, patriarch, there we go, about this and he said, oh, well the fields came from Beaufort. And I thought, and this was years before, I tucked that in the back of my head and I remember asking him, Beaufort, where in Beaufort, he said, Paris Island. I said, well, why did they come? He said, they came because of the war. I thought, okay. Okay, I don't know what to do with that, but I knew that we in Colleton County were a branch.
and that the tree had to be planted somewhere else. I just didn't know where the tree was. Maybe the tree was in Beaufort. I'm like, okay. Okay, Cousin Jonas, I hear what you're saying. I'm filing it away. And that's all I had. So fast forward, one of my cousins, one of Cousin Jonas's sons, we were in town and family came over to greet us. We came down from Pittsburgh. He handed me an envelope.
He said, here, Miss Historian, this is the family history. Do it. And he had gone through the census. So he had our family line and our oldest living relative, Hector. I was like, oh, okay, this is my job now. All right. So, you know, these are pieces that are coming together. Pieces, pieces. So,
Jermaine (13:59)
I'm not gonna say anything.
Edda Fields-Black (14:22)
I'm going to go back to the cemetery, okay? Because this time when I'm in town and I went to the cemetery and I couldn't find the Fields family, I went back to Cousin Jonas who had told me that the family was from Beaufort, my grandfather's cousin. And I said, Cousin Jonas Fields, where is the Fields family buried? And he gave me the name of a plantation. And I was like, I'm from Miami, okay?
Jermaine (14:50)
Thank you.
Edda Fields-Black (14:51)
We don't do plantations. Where is this plantation? What? A what? I Googled it, it's a rice plantation. I was like, okay, at least I know I can go there. So I called my rice colleagues. I got access to the plantation. I went to the plantation. I was shocked. I was, I was shaken to my core, okay?
This is the resting place of my ancestors. At the time, one of, okay, and keep in mind that I went looking for the graves of the Fields family. My cousin, Jonas Fields, told me that the cemetery was grown up, okay, so it's overgrown, this time of year. He said, and the Fields family's graves are unmarked.
I had no idea what he was talking about. Like I said, I'm from Miami. And you know, in Miami, if you can't afford to put a tombstone down, there's a little thing, little marker, name, birth and death dates, until you can afford to buy the tombstone. So that's what I was expecting. I got out there.
Grown up meant that it was overgrown. Unmarked meant that our ancestors' resting places were depressions in the ground, which you could barely see because it was grown up. I also found that my grandmother's family was buried in the same plantation cemetery. Their graves were marked, some of them. I'm sure there's many more. And one of them was open.
Jermaine (16:18)
Mm.
Wow.
Edda Fields-Black (16:47)
It was full of water and my ancestors' remains were floating at the top.
Jermaine (16:52)
Wow.
must have felt very heavy, I'm sure, to see that. And you're already feeling the heaviness of the moment, even just being in the place that your ancestors were, where they lived, where they worked, where they loved, where they connected with each other. And then to see that as like just a pretty terrible punctuation of that journey. Like I can only imagine how that felt in that moment.
Edda Fields-Black (17:15)
Yeah, and it unfolded over a period of years because you don't go, you don't see something like that and then unsee it and go back to your business as usual life. For me, that was impossible. There was a new normal. You know, I felt as if I was living on my ancestors' backs. I felt as if I had a responsibility that I had not taken up.
Jermaine (17:26)
Mm-mm.
Edda Fields-Black (17:45)
I felt as if I was called to do something that I had not done and I better figure it out pretty damn quick. You know, they were calling me to play my part, right? And to play my part in telling this story. And as I was writing the epilogue for Combi, and as you mentioned, it is a reclamation, you know?
Jermaine (17:54)
Thank you.
Edda Fields-Black (18:15)
It's about documenting the lives. It's about Harriet Tubman, and it's about Tubman's Civil War service. And I've got documents in there that haven't been seen before, and aspects of her service that we did not know about. It is also very much about the freedom seekers who escaped in the raid, and documenting their lives, and telling their stories.
Jermaine (18:36)
Hmm.
Edda Fields-Black (18:44)
in their own words, the stories of their intimate lives, the stories of their families, going back in some cases, three generations. We haven't seen freedom seekers. We haven't seen enslaved people. We will not, we don't know enslaved people the way we're gonna know the combi freedom seekers. And it was a very painstaking, meticulous, tedious process of recovery.
with lots of different kinds of historical documents, you know, sifting through piles, and it's like haystacks and haystacks and haystacks to find a needle. And for me, what I realized is I was writing the epilogue of the book was that I was looking for Hector's descendants.
for the nameless and the faceless enslaved people who we've never seen in the historical record. We haven't been able to access the historical record whose lives I was able to recover finally through the pension files. And I'll say spoiler alert that in this process of recovery, and I worked closely with the International African American Museum,
Center for Family History in Charleston. I could not have done the genealogical work without IAAM Center for Family History. And it's the former director who's now retired, Tony Carrier, who gave me the gumption, the notion, the audacity that I could actually do this from the beginning. And it was Tony who found Hector Fields.
Jermaine (20:39)
Hmm.
Edda Fields-Black (20:40)
And we knew Hector. I mean, it's a lot. But go back to the envelope that my cousin gave me, cousin Jonas's son, and he's like, here, take it. Do it. So I had Hector's direct line, that's all I had. From Hector down to my grandfather. Yeah, from Hector down to my grandfather.
Okay, Hector Fields. Well, Tony, I don't know how she, she was helping me find Hector, and she found a number of Hectors in Beaufort and Colleton County. They were mainly in Beaufort. She found a Hector who was a USCT soldier. We didn't know if this was my Hector, okay? And it was a bunch of Hectors, and it was sometime in one census,
He was in, there was a Hector in Beaufort and Colleton County with two different families. Okay. And our family was in Colleton County, but the Hector, there was another Hector, there was a Hector with another family in Beaufort County. And then he went to Beaufort and stayed in Beaufort. And it seemed like every census he had a different wife with different stepchildren and lots of stepkids.
with different last names in his, this is how I suspect they were stepkids or grandkids. So anyway, I was like, Tony, I don't know what to do with that. Tony did the detective work and actually found a pension file for Jonas Fields, who was Hector's brother.
Jermaine (22:21)
Thank you.
Wow, it starts to come together.
Edda Fields-Black (22:33)
she found Hector and the sister that we didn't even know about, and their parents in a pension file for Jonas Fields. We had never heard of Jonas Fields. I thought that Jonas Fields, who told me about the cemetery, who was my grandfather's cousin, that's the only Jonas Fields we knew about. We didn't know that we had a third great uncle named Jonas.
And in the pension file, it said that Hector and Jonas were enslaved in Buford. We knew where Jonas, his sister, their parents were enslaved and who enslaved them. That they went to Colleton County. They went to Whitehall, which is where the Fields family lives right now, after the war to Hayward's rice lands. That's where they live now. That was Hector.
And Tony Carrier found that Hector fought in the Combi raid. I... You couldn't make it up. She suspected it. And I was like, okay Tony, I don't know what to tell you. That's a lot of Hector's. He had sons named Hector come to find out there was a Hector Jr. who died at a year and a half.
Jermaine (23:35)
Wow. You couldn't make this connection up, right? I mean, this is, wow. Wow.
Yeah.
Edda Fields-Black (23:57)
a time of famine and sickness in Colleton County. And it was my suspicion, and Tony would agree with me, that after his son died, Hector went back to Beaufort. Now Hector did have two families. One in each county. Yeah, Hector didn't let any grass grow under his feet. And we were the second family.
Jermaine (24:15)
Yeah, Hector.
Actors moving around. Yeah.
Edda Fields-Black (24:26)
So when his son died and he had a young wife and he had adult older sons in Colleton County, sons that were probably of age to be self-sufficient.
Jermaine (24:40)
So when you started this, you didn't know about this personal connection. I mean, this is all unfolding as you are just, you know, family history connected to Hector and then the Combahee River Raid. And then you, oh, I want to go back though to Harriet Tubman, right? You know, it's this kind of centerpiece to all of this. But I mean, that personal connection is profound. And Harriet Tubman though, being somebody who, I want to see if you could help us separate the woman from the myth, right? Because she emerges in history as this.
Edda Fields-Black (24:55)
Yeah.
Jermaine (25:10)
almost superheroic figure, often credited with leading 200 enslaved people to freedom. We know that number is usually said to be inflated. It's probably closer to around 70 people, right? And one of my favorite quotes from her, she said, or at least it's attributed to her, even with the quotes, you don't know what she said, maybe what she didn't say. But it was a quote where I was the conductor of the Underground Railroad for eight years. And I can say what most conductors can't say that I never...
ran my train off track and I never lost a passenger. And again, I don't even know if that's just attributed to her, if she said it, but I think her legacy is, you know, often inflated to these mythical proportions. So what do you think this tendency to mythologize figures like Tubman says about this collective need for heroes? And you know, how does this affect our understanding of her and her real legacy?
Edda Fields-Black (26:04)
Yeah, well I think there is a collective need for heroes, particularly when it comes to slavery. I think particularly for African Americans and people of African descent in the New World and the diaspora, you know, we so much want to look at someone who was about freedom and liberation.
And it's very hard for us in the 20th and 21st century to think of our ancestors in bondage. And so Tubman becomes superhuman almost for her selflessness, for her sacrifice, for her courage, to not only liberate herself, but to go back into the prison house of bondage and bring other people out.
You know, I mean, it's just, it's mind boggling. And I feel like Tubman and even someone like Frederick Douglas, these are names we know, these are names, these are stories that have been told that we hold up because the multitude, the masses of names we don't know, the masses of stories we don't know.
and stories of people who were never able to get to liberty before the end of the Civil War and after the end of the Civil War. People who were enslaved until the bitter end. So I think that's a very deep need in not just African American but American society.
because we still haven't grappled with slavery and its legacy.
Jermaine (27:58)
Yeah, absolutely. And I very much agree with that. I think to elevate Tubman to the status of a myth, right, it isn't just a glorification. It's part of that reclamation that we talked about earlier and, you know, an assertion of her life and legacy in the face of a history that's still marginalized, still silenced, especially black voices, black achievements. I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell's work. He talks about the power of myth and.
Again, if you apply that to this, it's not just about spinning tales. It's about, uh, uplifting that heroism, that, uh, those value and qualities of a person, right? And, um, yeah, I think that's desperately needed, you know, even if it is shrouded in some myth, but you know, there's so much truth behind the myth as well of the story. And I do want to get your perspective, uh, you know, as a serious historian, someone in academia, uh, come across this, uh,
There's a YouTube channel and there's a guy who kind of claims that, you know, Harriet Tubman is this character made up by the government. And he's saying that this is to suggest that this whole narrative of slavery is to kind of downplay that black people are actually indigenous. And I want to bring this up because this, you know, this has gone viral. It has millions of views. Millions of people are sharing it. And in my mind, I think about that scientific truism, right? Where it says.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. But I just want to know your perspective. Why do you think things like this catch on? You know, we have this digital age, right? Where people can, you know, have these platforms and say these things and then they catch on like wildfire. People want to share them. It's very provocative. You know, people want to relieve that, you know, and you do this hard hitting academic research. How do we get the truth out there in a world full of these YouTube theories?
Edda Fields-Black (29:53)
Ah, that's an interesting question. I'm not familiar with this YouTube channel. I think it feeds into the backlash that is against teaching hard history. I think that one of the downfalls of social media, I don't know, it's not really a downfall, but I would say one of the
pitfalls, how about that, of social media, is that everybody now has a platform to say whatever they want to say, you know, whether it's true or not. And as long as other people want to hear it, well, they can say it. And they can say it whether anybody wants to hear it or not. But they can also, they can often, using social media platforms, always find an audience somewhere.
I think that we as academics, you know, and traditional academics and sort of old school academics, and I'm kind of on the edge. I was trained to be an old school academic, but I've sort of reinvented myself in a variety of ways to be a new school academic. I think that we have to get our, we have to find ways.
Jermaine (31:03)
Thank you.
Edda Fields-Black (31:18)
to get our research out of the ivory tower and get it into the hands of people. And we have to meet people where they are. And we've got to educate them from there. And this is one of the things I love about your podcast.
Jermaine (31:40)
Yeah, I really try to be someone who bridges that gap, you know, myself of meeting people where they are, whether it be social media, especially young people, I try to reach and, you know, it's books like yours though, that they need to be in the hands of the people. They need this history. This very much writes a lot of the wrongs of history in the narrative, right? This is a corrective to the years of misrepresentation of people like Tubman. I mean, Tubman, even herself being somebody who's.
been mythologized in some terrible ways too. I can't remember the historian. I wrote about this in my book. They said Harriet Tubman could lift great weights. And she has very racist depictions of her as being this kind of superhuman kind of monstrous black woman who could do all these weird, amazing things. So the characterization of her has often been one that is a misrepresentative of who she truly was. So to have a book like yours that
humanizes her. I really think that's important, but a lot of people, you know, it definitely needs to be out there more where a lot of times though books like this can kind of just circulate amongst academics and not always get into the hands of the people who really, really need them, right, to bring her story to life as it should be.
Edda Fields-Black (32:56)
Yeah, it's a challenge. It's a challenge that we've got to be serious about taking up. And when I was in the cemetery in Colleton County, 10 years ago, to me that was the challenge that my ancestors were calling me to, to not just tell, not just write history for my colleagues and my graduate students.
that their story had to be told to everybody. And it had to be told in different formats so that everybody, people who don't read books, people who don't read academic books could still learn this history and be changed by it. And I felt like they were telling me that I was asleep at the switch, that was my calling and I hadn't...
I hadn't taken it up. I hadn't taken it seriously.
Jermaine (34:02)
I will say though, some people were sleeping on some of these academic books though, because they're riveting and written with all the journalistic depth and storytelling. And definitely I've read some very great academic nonfiction books. I want to go back though and see if you could set the stage for us about the Combahee River Raid, right? And just kind of talk to me about how this started and just some of the details of this
Edda Fields-Black (34:23)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (34:31)
campaign, right? I think a lot of people still don't even know that Harriet Tubman was the first woman in U.S. history to lead our military campaign. And so, you know, first I would like to ask, why do you think that aspect of her story isn't emphasized in the education system or in the popular narrative? And then can you kind of take us into the raid itself a little bit?
Edda Fields-Black (34:48)
the team.
Yeah, well I think that people don't know about the raid. The raid doesn't get nearly as much attention as the rest of Tubman's life, in large part because of the sources. People really haven't dug into the sources about the Combee River Raid and Tubman's role in it. I'll also say that I came to the Combee River Raid because of my work in Rice.
You know, the raid took place on seven rice plantations along the lower Cumbee River. And I tell people, what was I supposed to do? If I see Harriet Tubman standing in my rice fields where I'm working, what am I supposed to do? I'm just let her stand there, really? And I felt like that was an aspect of the story, you know, when the story about the Cumbee River raid is told.
Jermaine (35:36)
Thank you.
Yeah.
Edda Fields-Black (35:53)
that that's the part that people totally miss and I thought it was a very important part. So you know, the Compi River Raid really starts in November of 1861. This is when the whole thing starts with the Battle of Port Royal and the U.S. Navy driving its armada up Port Royal Sound and the planters, the white planters, slave-holding planters of
Port Royal and the Sea Islands fleeing, taking with them whatever they could carry, trying to, you know, a lot of times at gunpoint, force their house servants to go with them and enslaved people hiding and refusing to go. Well, once the U.S. Army captured Beaufort, Port Royal, and the Sea Islands,
those enslaved people came out and were under the protection of then the US Army. So it was a joint army-navy operation. They weren't free immediately, but they were contraband, in quotes, they were contraband of war, which meant that they would not be returned to the people who held them in bondage.
and they would go on to be the first freed people, the first African Americans to be freed and to be freed before the Emancipation Proclamation. This created a storm in the abolitionist community. This was like what abolitionists in the North had been waiting for. You know, they were up there lecturing and having teas and, you know, dinner parties, you know, for the slaves.
And all of a sudden you have about 8 to 10,000 enslaved people who are on the edge of freedom and they need help. And they got to organizing, right? Sending volunteers down to be teachers, to be superintendents, missionaries, sending relief supplies. And it got the attention of Tubman.
and it got the attention of the governor of Massachusetts, John Andrew. So Andrew ends up sending Tubman down to Beaufort, South Carolina. And he sent her to the architects of what becomes what's called the Port Royal Experiment, which was at the time the largest social movement in history, to be a spy and to be a scout and to be a nurse.
So Tubman arrives, and there's many people who she already knows. These are the abolitionists and their children, many people from Boston where she spent a lot of time in the abolitionist community in the late 1850s. And it's like that those communities, Boston, Philly, New York, Massachusetts, I should say, kind of get transported to coastal South Carolina.
She is, you know, the Port Royal Experiment primarily takes place in the rural areas on the Sea Islands. Tubman was in the city. She was in the town. She was in Buford. She was working in the refugee camps. And she, as one, as William Lloyd Garrison's son reported, made it her business to see all of the refugees.
as they came from Confederate territory. And she interviewed them. Okay, she debriefed them. And it's important to remember that the U.S. Army controlling Beaufort, Port Royal, and the Sea Islands was like a magnet to enslaved people in the surrounding areas. So the people on the Combi are
40 miles away? People all around, anybody who could get to Buford any way, I argue they knew they could be free. They knew freedom. They knew where freedom was. They knew the direction of freedom. Legally, they're not free yet, but those people are not in bondage. Now, the rice planters, after the Battle of Port Royal,
they decided they weren't leaving. Like the planners on the Sea Island cotton plantations who fled as the US Navy Armada came. They decided they were not leaving. Why? Because rice was so lucrative. And they figured they could stick it out, they could block the rivers, they could hunker down, and they could continue to force these black people to grow rice. And they could get a crop,
and then another crop and another crop and they were just going to keep at it. This is the Combee. There were planters along other rivers who left and the Confederate government did tell them a couple of times to leave and go inland and they refused. On the Combee they refused. So Tubman is working in the refugee camps. She's debriefing people.
people who were coming in, some of whom came from the Combi, and I've been able to document those people who were from the plantations that are raided, who get to Beaufort to the refugee camps working for the U.S. Army before the raid. At least one of them joins the second South Carolina volunteers and goes back and fights in the raid.
I will say that my ancestor, Hector Fields, was probably freed during the Battle of Fort Royal, or shortly thereafter. He joins the second South Carolina volunteers. He fights in the raid. His brother, his sister, his parents are enslaved in downtown Beaufort and they get taken, because they're house servants, they get taken by the slaveholders into the interior.
Jonas in the interior escaped, but it was like in 1864 and joined the US Colored Troops. So you have this process which is part of the battle of Port Royal that, part of the Port Royal experiment is the enlistment of black troops, the enlistment of black men into the US Army. So some of these men, most of these men, able bodied men.
18 to 40, who liberated themselves after the Battle of Port Royal, are now willing to fight in the U.S. Army for the freedom of other Black people who are still enslaved. Harriet Tubman is willing to put her life and her freedom on the line. You have older men, men who were too old to enlist, working as spies and scouts for the U.S. Army.
putting everything on the line for other black people to be free.
So Tubman in her intelligence gathering was able to find the people who were forced, the black people who were forced to put torpedoes on the Cumbee River for the Confederate army. And
She, I should have said this before, she is the leader of a group of men. These men are spies, scouts, and pilots. We know who they are. I've been able to trace most of them. There are a couple, maybe two, that are lost to history, but most of them I know who they are and their stories are in the book. And with her group of men, she is able to
find the people, the men who laid the torpedoes and oversee the removal of the torpedoes. Well, this opens the Cumbee River up. It opens the Cumbee River up to the U.S. Army. And there was a lot of controversy among Civil War historians who didn't believe that there were actually torpedoes on the Cumbee River. And I was able to find the documentation.
and even a description of what the torpedoes looked like. So documentation is very important.
Jermaine (45:10)
Hmm. Yeah. I mean, talk about setting the record straight and ending the disputes. I mean, like you're correcting the record again. I mean, these are things that have been disputed amongst, uh, you know, people who've been studying this and then you come in, I'm sure that was a, a very, uh, proud moment for you to be able to find that and be able to present that research and evidence.
Edda Fields-Black (45:32)
Absolutely. And there were a lot of, a couple Civil War historians with whom I'm in, conversation and communication who doubted Tubman's role in the raid as it had been written previously until they read Combi, right? And so that documentation is really important. I don't think it can be underestimated.
in terms of African Americans, in terms of people of African descent, in terms of women, right? Yes, I think the oral record is important and indispensable, really, but I think we're also up against the fact that some people only respect documents.
Jermaine (46:22)
Absolutely.
Edda Fields-Black (46:23)
And how do you find the documents that are, especially in Tupman's case, when the military commanders were not writing about her. The military record does not mention her at all. How do you find those documents? Okay, so anyway, they found the torpedoes, they took them out, they opened up the river. And we know now that the torpedoes were there, we know what they looked like.
So June 1st, about 9 p.m., three gunboats left Buford, and they traveled up.
to the Kusaw River. One of them ran aground at the Kusaw River and one of the things I'm able to show in the book, one of Tubman's spy scouts and pilots in her ring was from Kusaw Island. And I've got his Freedman's bank account record which shows that he said his daddy was one of the Combee planters.
and he's described as being biracial. He lists the name of his father and his father owned Cyprus plantation on the Kambi. Cyprus, many of the reports indicate Cyprus may have been the target of the raid. One of the freedom seekers who escapes before the raid
goes to Beaufort, enlists in the second South Carolina and volunteers, and goes back to fight in the raid, was enslaved on Cyprus and his parents and his siblings were still enslaved in bondage on Cyprus plantation. And the owner of Cyprus, William C. Hayward, was also one of the officers of the Confederate
the battle of Port Royal. So one thing that you see during the Civil War is that these US Army units, they were targeting, they called them, what did they call them? Something about the rebels, they called them rebels, you know, but they would go to their houses and they would raid them, right? We're going to go to this area, notorious rebels.
Jermaine (48:41)
Bye.
Edda Fields-Black (49:06)
They were looking for them. Who are these Confederate officers? And if we're on that river, you know, there was a raid up the Santee River by the US Army and they raided plantations. They raided the plantation of a cousin of Arthur Blake, his cousin Walter Blake owned a plantation on the Cumbee.
Blake's had been sending enslaved people back and forth between the Santee and the Combee. Those Santee people, some of whom were born on the Combee, end up in Buford before the raid. Okay? And they targeted Arthur Blake because he wasn't in the Confederate army at all, but he was in England actually.
But he was allowing his plantation to be used by Confederate forces. They were stationed there. So they came for William C. Hayward in the raid. And I think that they took the other plantations in the process, but he was the target. And the pilot, spy scout pilot.
in Tupman's ring who helped them get up the Coussar said he was William C. Hayward's illegitimate son after the war. So the Coussar was a risky maneuver. You know, it's a river getting to the mouth of the river. There are a lot of sandbars. They lost a boat, but they saved a lot of time versus going around St. Helena Sound. So it was a risky maneuver.
Jermaine (50:39)
Wow.
Edda Fields-Black (50:58)
But some people would say, most people would say it paid off to get them up the mouth of the combi. You know, they left about 9 p.m. They reached the mouth of the combi about four to five in the morning. When they arrive at the first rice plantation, four to five a.m., the enslaved people are in the rice fields hoeing rice at four o'clock in the morning. The raid took place
under the full moon. And so the light of the full moon helped them to navigate up the river. But even the light of the full moon did not illuminate the rice fields and the snakes and the alligators that were in there. So they come up the river with two boats instead of three. They blow the steam whistle and the enslaved people run.
you know, they run from these seven plantations. Plantations adjacent to the seven had been evacuated. Those planters had evacuated their enslaved populations. And once the boats dock and they dock in two places, the soldiers get off, it's about 300 soldiers. They get off and they begin not only, you know,
freedom seekers onto the boats, but burning all of the plantation houses, you know, the barns, the store houses, the grain houses, all of that, kitchens, they just burn them to the ground. One of my proudest moments, and I think I've said that the book is really, you know, the backbone of the book is identifying the freedom seekers and telling their stories, telling their stories about the raid, telling their stories of their lives before...
during and after the raid. And one of the stars of the book, his name is Minus Hamilton. Mr. Hamilton says that he's 88 years old at the time of the raid. And he in perfect color tells his story of he, his wife, his daughter, son-in-law and granddaughter getting to the boats. And it's so beautiful and it's so moving. And Ms.
Jermaine (53:25)
There were 700 people, that's what I've read, that were freed.
Edda Fields-Black (53:29)
756 according to Tubman. Yes. And I argue that this was the largest slave rebellion in US history. This was a slave rebellion. Right. This is what John Brown had dreamed of. And once they get on the boats and go back to downtown Beaufort
and Tubman gives a speech in a church. 150 men from the Combi join the second South Carolina volunteers. This is the next morning. So this is also John Brown's dream to arm the liberated people so that they go on and fight for the freedom of others.
Jermaine (54:18)
there's poetic justice and the fact that they did burn the very rice that the planter stayed to try to reap these harvests and economic benefits from and then there's also poetic justice and the fact that people are liberated and then turned around and joined up to take up arms to fight and you know and I always think that's very profound to me of like people not only getting their own freedom but then turning around and
fighting for the freedom of other people, that selfless act that you see over and over again, not only with Tubman, but so many other countless stories. And I really think it's just a beautiful thing too. It sounds to me like your book is, it's centered around some stories of Tubman, but there's also these personal connections where you have family connected to this raid, and then you're also pulling stories from some of those 700 some odd people that were involved in the raid too and shining lights on their stories. And
So we can see this richness and just, you know, you're painting this canvas on a full picture of the raid, you know, connected to Tubman, but also other lives that were affected. And then the past connection to the present too, with your own personal connection. So yeah, that's, there's been a lot of surprises in this interview, especially with the personal connection. I was not expecting that story. And yeah, that's kind of sitting with me still right now, like the weight of that.
Edda Fields-Black (55:43)
Thank you, thank you. It is poetic justice, you know? And I can only imagine what it must have felt like to see these plantations go up in flames, minus Hamilton gives us his take, and he is also completely in awe of the second South Carolina volunteers. If you can imagine an elderly black man who was born into bondage,
who lived his entire life in bondage, who never thought in his wildest imaginations that he would be free and that he would see other people free, for him to see these black men in uniform.
coming to help him to liberation. He's just in awe. And he talks about how they hold their heads up, right? They hold their heads up, and then they turned around and burned everything to the ground. He is completely in awe. And he says that, you know, he is so grateful for the children, right? The soldiers, he's so grateful for the children.
because children, how does he put it, children can.
Like children can run to freedom, but the old folks have to go slow. He's like, these, these black men, they not playing. They're taking it down. And.
Jermaine (57:13)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that. They don't think about that. The elderly, how do they escape? When you think of even the Underground Railroad, I've read that it was a large percentage of men, right? Because women connected to children, infants, I mean, how are you gonna run away with the infant on your back, right? So a lot of times, people don't have those nuances in the stories like this was worse for women. If you're elderly, you're 88 years old, like how are you gonna run away so to have this liberating force come.
You know, and I can only imagine too, and the moonlight in the background and the flames flickering of the plantations that you've had to be forced to get up at, you know, if they're working at four, I mean, they must've had to get up at three to get ready, you know, to get out to the fields and everything. And wow, that's deep.
Edda Fields-Black (57:50)
Mm-hmm.
Right.
And I'll have, you know, one of the, another thing that I'm very proud of with the book is that I spent a lot of time on these comfy plantations. I have walked in the, you know, where the enslaved people walked. I have been in those rice fields. And so I'm here to tell you it was no small feat to get up out of those rice fields.
to run to the river, right? And even how long would it take? You said they had to get up at three o'clock. Well, the rice fields were at least a mile from the slave cabins, you know, a mile in the dark with the snakes at three o'clock, 3.30 in the morning, you know, to stand in water, up to your knee, you know? I did all of that. I tested all of that. I did not.
Jermaine (58:48)
Wow.
Yes.
Edda Fields-Black (59:07)
Okay, let me one caveat. I did not walk to the rice fields at three in the morning. I didn't do that. But I had spent enough time standing in the rice fields in broad daylight to tell you that there are plenty of gators in daylight, right, especially in that time of year. And so I really wanted to understand so that I could recreate for the reader what our ancestors went through.
Jermaine (59:13)
Yeah.
Edda Fields-Black (59:37)
You know, what they went through, what kind of conditions they faced.
Jermaine (59:44)
Yeah, I think that's...
Edda Fields-Black (59:45)
So maybe we can begin to get our heads around why for those who were able to liberate themselves.
Going back into slavery was worse than death. Being re-enslaved was worse than death.
Jermaine (1:00:11)
If you look at the record, that is how a lot of people describe it as well. They describe it as hell. You know, these are the people who lived it, right? And you think about the biblical definition of hell, right? There's fire, there's brimstone, there's gnashing of teeth. I mean, and these are a lot of spiritual people, right? Who might have had some conception of the biblical hell, right? And they're saying, well, yeah, slavery, it's worse than that, right? So, you know, these are the stories, these are their stories, right? These are their words. These are their lives that were lived. And uh,
Edda Fields-Black (1:00:19)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:00:40)
yet to go there and stand there and have a connection to that history. I'm sure it enriches the book in ways that really can't even be described, right? It just, I'm sure it brings the stories to life in a way because, you know, that feeling I believe is transferred to the page. So I think readers are going to be moved by your book. I think the story is riveting. I think your personal connection is profound. And...
It's been an absolute honor to have you in conversation today. And I implore everyone to go out and get the book because as you've heard here, it's more than just a work of historical scholarship. It's a beautiful contribution to a pivotal chapter in American history, not only of the story of Harriet Tubman, but all those lives that are connected to this history. So Dr. Fields, Black Eye, appreciate you coming on the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing your stories with us.
Edda Fields-Black (1:01:35)
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for all of the work that you've done.
Jermaine (1:01:41)
Thank you so much, I appreciate it.
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEEmbarking on a journey through the history of ancient Athens brings us face to face with Socrates, the foundational pillar of Western philosophy. Through a captivating exploration, we delve into the life, thoughts, and enduring legacy of a man whose quest for knowledge and dedication to the pursuit of truth forever altered the course of intellectual history.
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Socrates: The Pillar of Western Philosophy and His Enduring LegacyIn the heart of ancient Athens, amidst the birth of democracy and a burgeoning era of intellectual curiosity, Socrates emerged as a foundational pillar of Western philosophy. Unlike any before him, his relentless quest for knowledge and his profound commitment to questioning the essence of virtue, justice, and the good life laid down the principles that would shape philosophical thought for millennia to come. This exploration delves into the life, methodologies, and enduring legacy of a man whose legacy transcends time.
The Athenian Context: A Cradle of DemocracyAthens, in the 5th century BCE, was a tapestry of innovative thought and political experimentation. It was here, in this cosmopolitan city-state, that democracy took its first steps, influencing Socrates and his contemporaries profoundly.
- Democratic Ideals: Athens' democratic government provided a unique backdrop for Socrates' philosophies. His interactions in the Agora, the heart of Athenian democratic life, underscored his belief in the power of dialogue and debate.
- Cultural Milieu: The city's openness to new ideas and its vibrant intellectual scene set the stage for Socrates' dialectical method, which thrived on the free exchange of ideas.
Socrates' Philosophical JourneySocrates' philosophy was marked by an insatiable thirst for knowledge and an unyielding drive to understand human existence at its core.
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In Search of Virtue: Through his interactions with Athenian citizens, Socrates sought to unravel the complexities of virtue and ethics, challenging assumptions and encouraging a deeper inquiry into one's moral compass.
The Socratic Method:
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The Socratic Method, a cornerstone of Western philosophical thought, stands as a testament to Socrates' profound impact on the realm of intellectual inquiry. This method, a distinctive form of cooperative argumentative dialogue, revolutionized the approach to education and knowledge acquisition in ancient Athens and beyond. Rather than simply imparting information, Socrates engaged his interlocutors in deep, reflective questioning, challenging them to examine and articulate their thoughts and beliefs rigorously.
At its core, the Socratic Method is a pursuit of fundamental truths through a dialectical process. Socrates, with his relentless questioning, sought not just to uncover inconsistencies in thought but to propel individuals towards greater self-awareness and intellectual autonomy. This method emphasizes the importance of acknowledging one's own ignorance—a pivotal step towards genuine understanding and wisdom.
Employing this method, Socrates navigated the complex landscapes of ethics, justice, and virtue, among other philosophical themes, with his fellow Athenians. His approach was not about leading participants to a predetermined conclusion but encouraging a deeper engagement with the subject matter, thereby fostering a culture of inquiry that valued the process of discovery over the mere possession of facts.
The enduring legacy of the Socratic Method lies in its emphasis on critical thinking and active learning. It challenges assumptions, prompts reevaluation of beliefs, and cultivates an intellectual humility. In classrooms, legal practices, and philosophical debates today, the echoes of this ancient method continue to inspire a quest for knowledge that is both reflective and transformative, emphasizing that the journey to understanding is as crucial as the destination.
The Myth and The ManThe figure of Socrates is shrouded in mystery, with the lines between the man and the myth often blurred. His life, as recounted by his students Plato and Xenophon, presents a figure of immense intellectual and moral stature.
- The Socratic Problem: Given that Socrates never wrote down his teachings, our understanding of his philosophies comes primarily from his disciples. This secondary nature of sources leads to the "Socratic Problem," where discerning the philosopher's authentic voice becomes a challenge.
- Mythical Aspects: Legends surrounding his divine sign or daimonion and his purportedly humble origins add layers of complexity to his persona, merging the historical with the mythical.
Socrates and Athenian YouthSocrates' influence on the youth of Athens was profound but also controversial. His method of questioning traditional values and encouraging free thought alarmed the Athenian establishment, who viewed him as a corrupting force.
- Mentorship and Influence: Many of Athens' young elite were drawn to Socrates, captivated by his teachings on virtue, justice, and the importance of a life examined.
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Controversy and Criticism: His approach, however, was not without its critics. The same qualities that endeared him to many led to suspicion and animosity among some sectors of Athenian society, setting the stage for his eventual trial.
The Trial of SocratesSocrates' trial in 399 BCE marks one of the most infamous legal proceedings in history. Charged with impiety and corrupting the youth, his defense, as chronicled by Plato, encapsulates his unwavering commitment to his principles.
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The Accusations: The charges against Socrates were reflective of broader tensions within Athenian society, grappling with the aftermath of the Peloponnesian War and an uncertain future.
- Socrates' Defense: His eloquent defense, immortalized in Plato's "Apology," remains a powerful testament to his philosophy and his dedication to the pursuit of truth, regardless of personal cost.
The Legacy of SocratesThe execution of Socrates by consuming hemlock is a moment etched in the annals of history, not as an end but as the beginning of a philosophical legacy that continues to influence to this day.
- Foundations of Western Philosophy: Socrates' teachings and method laid the groundwork for his students, Plato and Xenophon, and set the course for Western philosophical thought.
- Eternal Questions: The issues Socrates grappled with—ethics, the nature of knowledge, the ideal society—remain central to philosophical inquiry, testament to his enduring relevance.
- Inspiration Across Ages: From the Renaissance to the modern era, Socrates' commitment to living a life of inquiry and integrity continues to inspire those who seek to understand the essence of truth and the virtues of a life well-examined.
Socrates' life and philosophies offer a beacon of wisdom in an often tumultuous world. His methods of inquiry, his dedication to the pursuit of knowledge, and his courage in the face of adversity provide enduring lessons on the value of questioning, the importance of ethical living, and the pursuit of a meaningful existence. As we navigate the complexities of the 21st century, Socrates' legacy invites us to reflect deeply on our beliefs, to engage in meaningful dialogue, and to strive for a deeper understanding of the world around us. In the story of Socrates, we find not just the roots of Western philosophy but a timeless guide for living with purpose and integrity.
Research & Reading List
- What Made Ancient Athens a City of Genius
- Biography of Socrates
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The Socratic Method
- Podcast Episode Transcript Hello everyone. I am Jermaine Fowler, your gracious host with The Humanity Archive podcast. A show that I created for all the lifelong learners. The history lover, the perpetually curious student, the lover of wisdom, and those who want more diversity in the narratives of history. Where I tell about those ordinary people who have done extraordinary things. And boy, do I have a fascinating story for you today. It is about a familiar person but it's unique because no one has ever told it in a way that I'm going to tell it.
And the narrative today is about Socrates who was considered to be the father and the forbearer and the forerunner of western philosophy. Philosophy being a love of wisdom. But this isn't going to be an introduction to philosophy, rather, it's the story of a philosopher. One who had a fundamental commitment to questioning injustice. So we'll learn about how a togo wearing, troublemaking, eccentric Athenian outcast became known as one of the greatest minds to ever think a thought, but more importantly, the legacy of what we call the Socratic form of questioning.
How his ideas can be used to talk about the hardest of truths or to answer the most painful questions within ourselves, among our friends, our communities, our classrooms, our governments, and the world. This episode is called Socrates: Question Injustice. Let's get into it!
What do you know of ancient Athens? The tiny Greek city state that produced some of the most famous and infamous characters we know of in history. And I was intrigued by the fact that the city of Athens was named after a goddess, Athena, the goddess of wisdom and warfare. And that was a fitting name because the two things that ancient Athenians are most known for are thinking and fighting. The very life of Athens was like that of a professional boxer. They were always getting ready to fight, fighting, or resting in between rounds of fighting. Yet in between these great fights and wars with Persia and Sparta they put forth ideas that are still taught verbatim 2,400 years later.
And I came across this article titled, "What Made Ancient Athens the City of Genius," where journalist Eric Weiner had this to say, "ancient Athens was a place of public opulence in private squalor. The streets were noisy, narrow and dirty. The houses of the wealthy were indistinguishable from the houses of the poor and both were equally shoddy, constructed of wood and sun dried clay and so flimsy that robbers gained entry simply by digging. How did a small, dirty, crowded city surrounded by enemies and swathed in olive oil manage to change the world? Was Athenian genius simply the convergence of a happy set of circumstances as the historian Peter Watson has put it or did the Athenians make their luck?
This question has stumped historians and archeologists for centuries." So I wonder how did this small city state create democracy? Because this is where it was cradled in its infancy. American democracy is kind of like a teenager with an attitude now because it still doesn't do exactly what it's supposed to do. Like allowing everyone the right to vote without suppression or race and gender equality or a full self-governance and so on and so forth. This form of democracy, no matter how underdeveloped, started in Athens. This core idea of putting power in the hands of the people and giving them some form of right to vote as we know it.
But how did this happen? And I think an even bigger question for this podcast is how did it produce an intellectual colossus by the name of Socrates? Maybe it's because they were such an international and cosmopolitan city. They traveled abroad, borrowing from other nations and openly allowed foreigners to live there. There's a lot of writings about how they borrowed ideas and culture and different religious ideology from ancient Egypt and brought it back to Greece. So if you have Athenian's going abroad and they study under the greatest shipbuilders then they bring that knowledge back to Greece.
Or you send them abroad and they go to the best libraries and they bring that knowledge back to Greece. And you also have people from the other nations coming. Or maybe it was because they were devoted to the ideas of citizenship and participation by everyone. You could not live in Athens and not participate in public life. You couldn't really just go to work and go home and go and shut your door and go into self isolation and watch tv. Ancient historian Thucydides wrote, "the man who took no interest in the affairs of the state was not a man who minded his own business but a man with no business being in Athens at all."
So you see the seriousness of this idea that you don't belong here if you do not participate in our affairs. There was this place called the Agora and these were these public places in Greek cities where there was commerce and conversation and politics and religious activities. You could go buy groceries, watch a theater performance, and involve yourself in a political discussion all in the same place. Public conversation breeds ideas. And it is in this agora that we can often find Socrates, our main character. A man who, as far as we know, never wrote a single word, but whose words have flowed down to us for over 2,400 years.
Now when we think of Socrates, we think of the father of western philosophy. Philosophy, literally meaning a lover of wisdom and wow, did he show us the limitlessness of our minds. He showed us how to question everything and everyone. His style of education is forever known as the Socratic method. The funny thing about it is he never really said he knew much, but rather asked question after a clarifying question, until his students arrived at their own understanding. This whole idea of think for yourself, this is where it came from. So we know that Socrates lived from 469 to 399 BCE. His father, Sophroniscus, was a stonemason and his mother, Phaenarete, she was a midwife.
But even as a youngster, Socrates loved learning. So he grows up to be a young man. And then he became a hoplite in the Greek army, in the Athenian army. Historians say that he served with honor and valor, kind of like a purple heart and won battle. He saved his friend in a thick and intense fight with shield and spear in the Battle of Potidaea. And then we're told that he had insane endurance and he always questioned, even when he was in the army. He would ask questions like what is the nature of courage and what makes a good commander? And here's a story that will tell you a lot about Socrates. So we go to Plato's Dialogues and in them there's a page where he just got home from the wars and he's excited.
He's excited to get back to some place that he used to hang out. It's been a long war. He's fought on many, many, many campaigns. These were the Peloponnesian Wars where they were going back and forth in skirmishes and fights with the Spartans. So he gets home fresh out of these wars and he's lost many personal friends, he's taken some hard losses. So when he gets back his friends that are still there, which are young men, they naturally want to know what the war was like. So he answers all the questions about the battles and the injured and the dead. And he keeps answering their questions. They're shooting questions at him. They are firing them and he patiently answers them.
And then it's Socrates turned to speak. Does he talk about the war? No. He starts asking what is the latest state of philosophy in Athens and if any new people had distinguished themselves for wisdom or beauty? What a man here! Think about this, he's war torn, war scarred, friends died. And instead of talking about the war or lamenting or talking in sadness or drowning his sorrows in a bottle, he was asking about the state of philosophy. And then here lies the question that I thought, is Socrates emotionless? So involved with the life of his mind that he couldn't really see people. That's something we'll get into a little bit later.
So we see this trajectory of Socrates' life just seems like a regular old Athenian man. So how did he go from this soldier to a wandering philosopher? And this is where the story may get a little weird or mythical. You almost have to believe in a story of Socrates almost like you believe in Jesus or Buddha because he wrote nothing down about himself. Only his disciples did. Some of their accounts are heavily disputed by historians. This is what they call the Socratic problem. Trying to get together all of these sources and figure out what's true and what's not about his life. Throughout his life he did some spectacular things. And then he died in a morbidly spectacular fashion all for what he believed in.
We have to fill in the blanks from the different accounts but Socrates' journey really starts when one of his buddies asks a question to the Oracle at Delphi. Now these oracles were thought to have communicated with and been the mouthpiece for the Greek god Apollo himself. Anyone could go to them and they'd answer questions nine months out of the year, on the seventh day of the month. We refer to Plato a lot because he is the main biographer of Socrates. He was a student of Socrates. Socrates had a profound influence on Plato. So most of what we know about Socrates comes from the writings of Plato and in Plato's Apology he has Socrates saying, "Chaerephon went to Delphi and was so bold as to ask the Oracle this question.
And gentlemen don't make a disturbance of what I say, for he asked if there were anyone wiser than I, Socrates? Now the Pythia, the priestess who held court at Pytho, replied that there was no one wiser. When I heard this I thought to myself what in the world does God mean? And what riddle was he propounding? For I am conscious that I am not wise either much or little. What then does he mean by declaring that I am the wisest? He certainly cannot be lying for that is not possible for him. And for a long time I was at a loss as to what he meant. Then with great reluctance I proceeded to investigate him somewhat as follows.
I went to one of those who had a reputation for wisdom thinking that there, if anywhere, I should prove the utterance wrong and should show the Oracle. This man is wiser than I but you said I was the wisest. So examining this man and conversing with him, this man seemed to be wise to many other people and especially to himself but not to be so. And then I tried to show him that he thought he was wise but was not. As a result I became hateful to him and to many of those present. And so I went away, I thought to myself, I am wiser than this man for neither of us really knows anything fine and good, but this man thinks he knows something when he does not.
Whereas I, as I do not know anything, do not think I do either. I seem then, and just this little thing, to be wiser than this man at any rate, that what I do not know, I do not think I know either." This is at the heart and at the core of the whole Socratic philosophy. Now just take a second and imagine that you wholeheartedly and undoubtedly and unquestionably believe in an all-knowing God. And that this one supreme God just spoke to you through someone else and said you were the wisest person on earth and you believe that to your very soul, to the bottom of your soul.
What kind of life would you live? Would you give everything up? I'm sure you would if you really believed that. Like you believe the sun is going to rise up tomorrow. You might dedicate your life to wisdom too. So this is where we really see Socrates begin to start his philosophical journey and become that person that we know today. So to sum all this up, Socrates knows some guy and this guy went to the Oracle and he asked who was the wisest person? And they said Socrates. Socrates claims that he goes around asking people questions because he wants to prove that he isn't the wisest man. But so far all he's discovered is that no one has any clue what they're talking about.
And they can't even defend their knowledge to all these questions that he's asking. And then this leads to Socrates' recognition of his own wisdom. And the fact that he admits that he doesn't know anything. Everyone else doesn't know anything either but they think they know something and in doing so they have fooled themselves. Socrates is wise because he is aware of his own ignorance. Now I wonder, can you immediately see how this could be beneficial? Because think about your deepest assumptions. Think about your most adhered to and clung to beliefs.
How often do you question them? How often are you open to ideas that could change your mind? No one is beyond questioning and this is how we come to truth. And this is how we come to consensus in the truth. But we'll get a little bit more into that later. Now let's fast forward and you will see Socrates now is an eccentric man, living in abject poverty and going about the marketplace questioning and holding forums. Now from what we know about Socrates, we're told he was remarkably ugly, dirty and disheveled, wandering around the street in unwashed bedclothes, long matted hair. He looks like a bum or a homeless person. The accounts of him says that he has bulging eyes.
And it said that he always looked like he was staring, not even straight but sideways. And they said he had the mouth of a frog. Now think about this Greek society that held wisdom and beauty as some of the highest cultural values. And then think about this man. People look at him and they're saying that his looks did him no favors. And we hear a little bit about his wife. Her name was Xanthippe and we're told that she hates his guts because he refused to earn a living. He just walks around just speaking about philosophy all the time, every waking moment, and barely ever sleeps, just philosophizing. So he's having marital problems. So now before we go talking about all the great stories of Socrates, cause I'm sure you've heard those, I'm going to tell you some more, but it's important to know that during this time he wasn't thought of well by everyone.
Most of the people probably thought he was insane. This dirty homeless looking man walking around and trying to question them. And there was even a play by Aristophanes that mocked his life. But we can get a lot out of this play because it gives us some insight. And Aristophanes he says, "he was a bold rascal, a fine speaker, impudent, shameless, a braggart, and adept at stringing lies and old stagger at quibbles, a complete table of laws, a thorough rattle, a fox to slip through any whole, supple as a leathern strap, slippery as an eel, an artful fellow, a blusterer, a villain, a nave with one hundred faces, cunning, intolerable, a gluttonous dog."
Not a very flattering depiction of the great western philosopher now is it? Of course this is one view. And surely those in his own time, again, they may have viewed him as a nobody, maybe even a public nuisance. What would you do if you were walking out of the grocery store and what appeared to be a homeless man approached you every time you went grocery shopping, asking you what the meaning of life was? But the thing is, is that Socrates had such a profound and life changing effect on some very influential Athenians, Xenophon, but most importantly, Plato. And Plato came from a wealthy background. He was said to be this handsome guy who studied wrestling and philosophy and poetry and all these other things, and Socrates taught him.
And then Plato went on to teach the man. And then Plato would go on to be the person who would open the first academy in the western world where he then taught Aristotle. And then Aristotle goes on to teach Alexander the Great. So you could see how this kind of starts coming down through western history, right? Socrates the intellectual father of them all. And that's why he's called the father of western philosophy. And these are where the positive stories come from. These influential Athenians whose words have been set in stone or on paper and passed down to us. A lot of the writings were lost but theirs have survived. Now there's one of Socrates admirers, his name is Alcibiades and he's a statesmen and a student of Socrates and he says, "Socrates' argument seemed ridiculous the first time you hear them but if you see them taken apart and get inside of them you will find them to be the only arguments that are reasonable.
Arguments that are the most God-like. Arguments holding inside a wealth of algamata, of divine excellence. Arguments that are largely, no completely, intent on everything proper for becoming a noble and good man." Roman philosopher Cicero years later says, "Socrates wrestled philosophy from the heavens and brought it down to earth." And this brings us to his philosophy. This is what you came for, right? The philosophy of the philosopher Socrates or this love of wisdom. I want to break down the philosophy of Socrates without losing you. And I even struggled a bit because a lot of the historians and academics and people writing about them, they can get real dry and colorless and uninspiring when they write about his philosophy.
You could be reading a book that's like a thousand pages. So I'm going to break it down into its fundamentals, give you the cliff notes. So for me personally when we talk about Socrates we first have to turn to line 38A in Plato's apology where Socrates says, "the unexamined life is not worth living." And this again describes the Socratic method. Elenchus as it's described in Plato's Socratic dialogues, and you make arguments for or against. Or you ask why or you ask how and then this leads to debate, like lively debates until you come to the truth.
So the Socratic method clarified the concepts of injustice and justice, moral and immoral problems. It was very much a moral philosophy. So look at it like this, if you have any problem then you break it down into a series of questions and you find your required answer in the responses. We can look at the Socratic method as a sort of moral philosophy, as I said before. So if you have kids, for instance, or students, you can use the Socratic method right now as we speak by just asking them. Ask them this question, would you buy a stolen bicycle? Then maybe you ask them and throw this in there and say, what if that stolen bicycle was the only way for you to get a hundred miles from where you are rather than walking and you didn't have any shoes on?
You know, you could get into the greater good is what ultimately it comes down to and trying to get to some moral truth of what the greater good for society is. Because again, this ties back into citizenship or it's a consensus of what is honorable or what is virtuous or what is the upright thing to do. So this isn't just questioning for the sake of questioning or arguing for the sake of arguing, like we see with so many of our political divides. Again, this is people who agree that we are a community and we're trying to come to the greater good of our community and the greater good as citizens. And one professor that I read had a great name for these debates, he called it productive discomfort. There was intention in these dialogues that you may be called or held into account for your beliefs.
You had to defend your values. You had to defend your notions. And then in turn as you grow as a citizen then you may call on your nation or your neighbor or your friends to be accountable to their beliefs, to their ideas, to their deepest assumptions. I hope you can see this is the stuff that democracy is made of. This is the stuff that community is made of. Developing the courage and the forums to criticize each other's actions, each other's thoughts, starting with questioning our own thoughts and on a bigger scale helps us to identify injustice and critically question it. So then we can ask ourselves, how does the Socratic questioning deal with racism?
How does Socratic questioning deal with sexism? How does Socratic questioning deal with gross wealth inequality and health inequality and educational inequality? It has everything to do with arguing against the injustice. It's assertive. It's not passive. It's a way of life. And it's a way of being, and it's engaged and it's not disengaged. This is the legacy of the Socratic method. And you see the philosophy of Socrates also says that I cannot teach anyone I can only make them think. He was one of the first ones in the west to argue that happiness is achievable through human effort. Or to pronounce the idea that what you think is what you become. There's much more to it but this is the core ideas and the core principles.
There's one story in the republic where he asks a man named Cephalus, whether paying what one owes and returning what has been left with someone is just? He was told, yes, it is just. And when he was told it was, he asked then "is giving a prospective murderer his sword back also just?" Cephalus says, no, it wouldn't be. And then Socrates sees that there are holes in the traditional ideas of justice. So there's this idea that truth is sometimes nuanced. And morally we have to again, think about the greater good. So then you could see this legacy emerging and it's still with us today. And it's been with us.
Those who have had the courage to critically question justice have sometimes changed the justice system or those who take the time to examine and question themselves often make themselves better, or their friends better, their spouses, or their children. Socrates' legacy is one that has a comfortability with doubt, not fear, but doubt that one can be in a constant state of knowledge renewal because of this and openness to new knowledge and the tranquility that comes from this comfort, this flexibility. And Socrates was by all accounts happy. The key to happiness he says, "is to turn inward and away from bodily pleasures and into the soul." So this is just more of his thought process and his philosophy.
And he says, "that a moral life is preferred to an immoral life and is linked to justice, virtue and a grander meaning to human existence." Unfortunately, Socrates would die for his beliefs. He was willing to die for this. One day in 399 B. C., he stood before a jury of 500 Athenians and they accused him of refusing to recognize the gods recognized by the state and for corrupting the youth. Now remember Athens was a young democracy, so freedom of religion, not really a thing. You could die for worshiping other gods.
Socrates is running around saying he only believed in one God, instead of many gods, like the state, that wasn't going to fly. He also said God spoke to him. And that his message was divinely influenced. A big no-no. And the stakes here are his life. If found guilty his penalty could be death. The trial took place in the heart of the city. The jurors were seated on wooden benches, surrounded by a crowd of spectators. Socrates' accusers were three Athenian citizens and they were given three hours to present their case. And after that the philosopher would have three hours to defend himself. And this is all caught in Plato's Apology. Old Plato coming back to tell the story.
And it's all about Socrates presenting a case for himself, but he doesn't really defend himself as you think he would, as a man whose life is at risk. He adheres to his moral truth and his philosophy even in the face of death. At one point even mocking the other Athenian saying he is like a gadfly sent from God to criticize and pester the Greek state into doing what is right and just. This is a very profound quote from him where he talks about being a gadfly, where he says, "I am the gadfly to the Athenian people given to them by God. And they will never have another if they kill me. And now Athenians, I'm not going to argue for my own sake, as you may think, but for yours.
That you may not sin against God by condemning me, who is gift to you. For if you kill me, you will not easily find a successor to me, who if I may use such a ludicrous figure of speech, am a sort of gadfly given to the state by God. And the state is a great and noble steed who is tardy in his motions only to his very size and requires to be stirred into life. I am the gadfly which God has attached to the state, and all day long and and in all places, I'm always fastening upon you, arousing and persuading and reproaching you. You will not easily find another like me and therefore I would advise you to spare me."
What gusto! What courage in the face of death! He tells all of his detractors and his enemies, "I've been sent here to criticize you for injustice. To tell you the ugly truth about your immorality and to bring you to life in a better way. Spare me because there won't be another to do this great deed for Athens." Doesn't sound like a defense does it? This is a man who is standing and speaking his truest conviction and what he thought he was sent here to do. Now at this point Socrates was 70 years old and familiar to most Athenians. His views had turned many in the city against him.
Two of his wayward students had been immoral and corrupted themselves, their names were Alcibiades and Critias. They had twice briefly overthrown the democratic government of the city instituting a reign of terror in which thousands of citizens were deprived of their property and either banished from the city or executed, so there was that. And after hearing the arguments of both Socrates and his accusers, the jury was asked to vote on his guilt and under Athenian law, the jurors did not deliberate. The point is that each juror registered his judgment by placing a small disk into an urn marked either guilty or not guilty.
Socrates was found guilty by a vote of 280 to 220. Then the jurors were asked to determine Socrates' penalty. As accusers argued for the death penalty, Socrates was given opportunity to suggest his own punishment and he probably could have avoided the death penalty by recommending exile, but instead he initially offered the sarcastic recommendation in true Socratic fashion that he be rewarded for his actions. And then when pressed for a more realistic punishment, he proposed that he be fined a modest sum of money. And faced with these two choices the jury selected death for Socrates. The philosopher was taken to the nearby jail where his sentence would be carried out.
And Athenian law prescribed death by drinking a cup of poison, hemlock. Socrates would have to be his own executioner. And again we go to Plato and he describes the scene through the narrative voice of the fictional character of Phaeto. He says, "when Crito heard, he signaled to the slave who was standing by. The boy went out and returned after a few moments with the man who was to administer the poison which he brought ready mixed in a cup. When Socrates saw him he said, 'now good sir, you understand these things. What must I do?' Just drink it and walk around until your legs begin to feel heavy.
Then lie down. It will soon act." With that he offered Socrates the cup. The latter took it quite cheerfully and without a tremor, with no change of color or expression. He just gave the man a startled look and asked, 'how say you is it permissible to pledge this drink to anyone may I?' The answer came, 'We allow a reasonable time in which to drink it.' 'I understand,' he said. 'We can and must pray to the gods that are soldiering on earth will continue happily beyond the grave. This is my prayer. And may it come to pass.' With these words he stoically drank the potion quite readily and quite cheerfully.
Up until this moment most of us were able with some decency to hold back our tears. But when we saw him drinking the poison to the last drop we could restrain ourselves no longer. In spite of myself, the tears came in floods so that I covered my face and wept, not for him, but for my own misfortune at losing such a man as my friend. Crito, even before me, rose and went out when he could check his tears no longer. Apollodoris was already steadily weeping by drying his eyes, crying again and sobbing. He affected everyone present except for Socrates himself. He said, 'you are strange fellows.
What is wrong with you? I sent the women away for this very purpose, to stop their creating such a scene. I have heard that one should die in silence, so please be quiet and keep control of yourselves.' These words made us ashamed and we stopped crying. Socrates walked around until he said that his legs were becoming heavy. When he lay on his back, as the attendant instructed, this fellow felt him and then a moment later examined his feet and legs again. Squeezing a foot hard, he asked him if he felt anything. Socrates said he did not. He did the same to his calves and going higher showed us that he was becoming cold and stiff. Then he felt him for a last time and said that when the poison reached the heart he would be gone.
As the chill sensation got to his waist, Socrates uncovered his head. He had put something over it and said his last words, 'Crito, we owe a cock to Asklepios. Do pay it. Don't forget.' 'Of course,' said Crito. 'Do you want to say anything else?' There was no reply to his question but after a while he gave a slight stir and the attendant covered him and examined his eyes. Then Crito saw that he was dead. He closed his mouth and eyelids. This was the end of our friend. The best. The wisest and the most upright man of any that I have ever known." Now we have to take that with some salt grains because if most of us drank hemlock tea we'd be in extreme pain.
Convulsing, gasping for air until we died. But this is Socrates. So he was walking and talking and takes it all in heroically. And then his last words were like hey, we owe somebody some money. Make sure you pay that. At any rate many scholars surmise that Socrates conceived of his death as a sort of freedom. The freedom of his soul from the unreasonableness of humanity and the confines of his body. And maybe he was so stoic and unconcerned about it because again, with his not knowing maybe death is better than life. We won't know until we get there.
What a story! What a narrative! What a life! What a legacy! And I was thinking, how can I sum that all up? What could I say that would show the lasting impact and legacy of the most influential philosopher in western history, in western thought, in the western tradition? Perhaps a fellow philosopher and expert on Socrates could say it better than I could say it. I went to Cornel West for the final quote of this show. And he says, "the Socratic love of wisdom holds not only that the unexamined life is not worth living, but also that to be human and a democratic citizen requires that one muster the courage to think critically for oneself.
This love of wisdom is a perennial pursuit into the dark corners of one soul, society, and world. This pursuit shatters one's petty idols, false illusions, and seductive fetishes. It undermines blind conformity, glib complacency, and a pathetic cowardice. Socratic questioning yields intellectual integrity, philosophic humility, and personal sincerity. All essential elements of our democratic armor for the fight against corrupt, elite power. This is the Socratic legacy." Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone. I am overjoyed and overly grateful that you have taken the time out of your busy day or your commute or whatever it is that you're doing out there to listen to The Humanity Archive podcast.
If you want to learn more about Socrates and his philosophy, head on over to the show notes for my sources and many more places that you can go to on the interwebs to find out more and read more and books you can check out or that you can buy. If you want to support the show like, comment, and share, and please leave a review. And I'm now taking tips on my website as well, so donate. It all takes time. So sign up for my Patreon to support my work so I can bring you even greater stories and greater ideas. And thanks again. And I'll see you next time.
with Antonia Hylton
**APPLE PODCASTS** **|** **SPOTIFY** **|** **YOUTUBE**In an enlightening interview with Jermaine Fowler, Antonia Hilton, a distinguished Peabody Award-winning journalist, takes us deep into the heart of darkness that once was Crownsville Hospital. Known to many as a 'house of horrors,' Crownsville Hospital's story is a chilling reminder of past injustices in the realm of mental health care.
Through Hilton's decade-long research, this conversation sheds light on the shadows of Crownsville, connecting the dots between historical maltreatment and the ongoing struggle for reform in mental health care.
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Be sure to grab a copy of Antonia’s book ‘Madness: Race and Insanity in a Jim Crow Asylum,’ in this episode we cover:
The Horrors of Crownsville HospitalAntonia Hilton's journey into the history of Crownsville Hospital uncovers a series of harrowing truths:
- The Birth of a 'House of Horrors': An overview of Crownsville Hospital's inception and its evolution into an institution where racism and neglect were rampant.
- Racial Disparities in Mental Health Care: The conversation delves into the systematic mistreatment of Black patients, including the overdiagnosis of schizophrenia and the medicalization of resistance to oppression.
- The Plight of Civil Rights Protesters: Insights into how civil rights activists were unjustly labeled insane and committed to psychiatric institutions, highlighting the weaponization of mental health diagnoses against Black communities.
Connect Past to PresentHilton emphasizes the critical importance of connecting Crownsville Hospital's grim history with current mental health care challenges:
- Learning from the Past: Understanding how historical injustices inform present-day disparities in mental health treatment and access.
- The Role of Black Providers: The conversation spotlights the transformative impact of Black mental health care providers and the story of recovery and resilience of former patients like Sonia King.
The Power of Storytelling for Change Inspiring Action: Antonia Hilton discusses how her findings on Crownsville Hospital aim to spark conversations and inspire change in the mental health care system. * Advocacy and Reform:* The urgent need for dialogue, recognition of past wrongs, and committed action towards a more equitable mental health care landscape.
Antonia Hilton's exploration of Crownsville Hospital is not just a recounting of its dark history but a call to action. By bringing these stories to light, Hilton and Fowler invite us to confront uncomfortable truths, advocate for those whose voices have been silenced, and work tirelessly for a future where mental health care is accessible, fair, and free from the shadows of racism and neglect. Join us in this crucial conversation and be part of the movement towards healing and justice.
- Podcast Episode Transcript Jermaine (00:01)
Antonia Hilton, you are a powerhouse in journalism, Peabody Award winner, Harvard alumni, correspondent with NBC. I'm so impressed by your background and your history from Vice Media, you're covering gang violence and immigration and just really impressed with your work. Welcome to the show, welcome to the Humanity Archive. So excited to get into this conversation.
antonia (00:28)
Thank you. I am so excited to be here and to be part of your community.
Jermaine (00:33)
Absolutely. So before we get into the book, which we're going to do, I've got my copyright here, but I really want to know a little bit more about who you are and where you've come from having grown up in a large close-knit family and being the first born of seven. How do you think that your family dynamics influenced who you are today, both personally and professionally?
antonia (01:00)
So I'm actually number three of seven, and I am solidly a middle child. That's a big part of my personality. I think it's a big draw for me that brought me into media and into the arts and into creative spaces. Because while me and all my six siblings, the seven of us, we're really close. You know, when you're in an environment like that, you need to find your voice. You need to learn to stand up for yourself pretty quickly.
or you'll kind of fade into the background and struggle. And so I became someone who was very outspoken, very interested in issues of justice and fairness from a very young age. And so really nobody in my family was surprised when I decided to become a journalist, when I wanted to tell people stories and travel the world. It seemed like a good fit. And they were all like, yeah, okay, that makes complete sense. And so it's kind of been in my blood, I think.
Um, but I, we grew up in this small town right outside of Boston called Lincoln, Massachusetts, which was not diverse, not very large, not a lot going on. And so to be black kids and on my father's side, African-American, on my mom's side, Afro-Cuban, uh, in an environment like that, where there were not a lot of kids who had family members from other countries and not a lot of kids who.
were of another color or a different hair texture. I think it again, it kind of propels you into this place of okay, I'm already kind of hyper visible in this community in which I live. So what am I going to say to the world? Who am I? How do I present myself? And what do I wanna fight for? And so I think those are all the things that drove me to be the kind of storyteller and reporter that I am now. I think some of my earliest memories of
wanting to tell stories or to do public speaking or to, you know, present for others, go back to kindergarten, first, second grade, that kind of thing. So for me to be able to publish my first book at 30, I'm shocked by it. I'm amazed. I'm so grateful to be here. But a lot of people in my family are kind of like, yeah, yeah.
Jermaine (03:17)
Well, I mean, and I was a middle child too. And I think for me, that made me like fiercely independent. I was always kind of going off and doing my own thing. And so that really shaped who I am as well. And I often think about the family environment that we grow up in. When you have a family that is supportive, when you have a family that is like a family that has your back, it's kind of like this personal sanctuary where you're understood and where you can grow.
I know that's had a profound influence on my work and what I do, but then if you flip that you're kind of in a rough spot, right? And that kind of bleeds into everything, your interactions. So that family dynamic, good or bad, I'm sure as I'm hearing kind of shaped your worldview and your work and both of my parents being teachers and then me looking at the world as my classroom. But I do want to talk about your aunt, Soledad O'Brien. I just wonder.
As being someone in your life, is there any piece of advice or wisdom that she's given you because you kind of have this family background, right? Your parents were lawyers, you have this aunt in journalism, and then you're in journalism now, so the apple's not falling too far from the tree between your parents and your aunt,
antonia (04:23)
Oof! Yeah.
Not at all. And Soledad O'Brien gives out the best advice. So if you ever see her on the street or you go to an event that she's hosting or something, ask her for her advice because she has like, she just drops wisdom like it's nothing. You know, I really got some of my best training under her because when I was so young and it became clear to me what I wanted to do.
I would follow her at work, I would watch her report, I would watch her write scripts. And so I really understood how does a reporter, how does a storyteller work from A to Z? What does the research and building and pre-interview process look like? What does the, how do you craft the final product, right? And so I learned a lot from her by just watching. I think one of the best pieces of advice she's always given me too is as you pursue what you love.
to always be saving and thinking about an FU fund, which is the money that allows you to keep your integrity, the money that allows you to say things like no, to things that jeopardize who you are and what you know your mission is and would put you in uncomfortable situations. And so I've thought about that from the moment I graduated from college. How do I...
pursue a career in media, how do I think about the stories I wanna tell and the type of reporter I am in the world, but how do I also make sure I'm in a place where if I was ever put in a position where I really couldn't be what I wanna be anymore, that I could make a plan B. And so I live and make all my decisions around that kind of strategy.
Jermaine (06:08)
Yeah, that's so important, right, to be able to craft your own path, right, and be able to turn things down if they don't align with your values, with your integrity. And I find that important too. That's a great piece of advice. And I think one of the things that is amazing about your story and just really speaks to what went into this book, right, as you faced some adversity in your own life, right, suffering from cancer at a young age.
I know that had to be a challenge, right? And for you to still be able to push forward and present this book to the world through the challenges you faced, how do you think that experience impacted your outlook on life and your career?
antonia (06:53)
I think that part of me is still, I think part of me is still coming to terms with all that because it was so shocking. It all happened this past year as I was trying to finish the book. So, you know, you have these deadlines. I still have my day job at NBC. And then I get this news from my doctor that they found a type of rare cancer called a neuroendocrine tumor in my colon. Thankfully, it was found really early. You know, many people, I mean,
Most people don't get screened until they're closer in their 40s and then in their 50s. But because of what we're seeing happen, especially to Black Americans across the United States right now, these rising rates of colon cancer and other cancers, problems with our gut, our diets, there's a real crisis there. And I just count, while I, it was heartbreaking to get this news and it really knocked me off my feet for a little while there.
It really is a happy story. It has a happy ending, right? Because my doctors found this, they cut it out. There's no chemo. There's no long-term treatment other than I'm gonna have to be checked every year to make sure it doesn't grow back. But I'm empowered now. I have the information. I have the tools that I need to make sure that I'm really healthy. And if I had waited 10 more years, this could be a very different story. But I took that early action and early intervention. And that's really the greatest tool that we have, whether it's...
cancer or you're talking about actually mental health challenges. Early intervention is everything. And so I think that my body was sort of taught this lesson about speaking up for itself, taking care of itself right before I go into this busy season, right. Of talking to other people about their health, obviously more in the realm of, of mental and emotional wellbeing. But I think that they're of course connected.
And so for me to go through that lesson and then be ready to have these conversations with others, I think it's actually really expanded my worldview. It's expanded my patience and kindness for myself and my own physical capacity and all that I was able to just get done in that period. I beat cancer and cut out cancer and I finished a book at the same time. That's kind of crazy. So, you know, as tough as it all was, I actually now sit with it and I'm like, okay, I feel...
Jermaine (09:06)
Yeah.
That's a lot.
antonia (09:16)
I feel blessed, I feel very lucky. And so I can share that message with people and they can hopefully take it as an example, a reminder to set that appointment, to go get checked out, to take a day off from work if that's what they need to do, because it can make all the difference.
Jermaine (09:30)
Yeah, that's profound because there's this connection with this, you're talking about health, mental health, but then you have your own kind of health crisis, but then there's a story of overcoming to where it's like, okay, you're taking your health into your own hands and getting screened early and kind of taking the lessons kind of the past, right? Like we know the institutions haven't taken good care of black people at all, so there's this kind of self-empowerment and self-care narrative and story within.
that as you're writing this book. And I think that's very empowering, you know, for everybody to hear, right? That we have to take our health into our own hands to a certain degree, right? While you could still call out and fight against the injustices within the system, but there's also that level of self care. And I'm glad to hear more and more people talking about that. And speaking of mental health, you have reported on some very intense topics, some very heavy topics from gang violence to immigration issues.
I'm curious, Antonio, how do you maintain and balance and manage the emotional weight of these stories? Or even in your book, Madness, how do you balance that? Because that's something that I find myself to challenge, to dive into that darkness, but not get lost in it. So what kind of practices do you have in your personal life to decompress or find peace when diving into these darker stories and narratives?
antonia (10:42)
Yeah.
a couple practices. The first thing that I do is that while I'm actually out in the field and I'm covering a tough story, so for example I spent a long time covering the case of Tyree Nichols out of Memphis. That was a heartbreaking, incredibly disturbing case. I had to watch all the footage of how he was beaten that night and it really affected me. I had nightmares about it for a while. But while I was out there trying to get the job done, I
did some small acts every day to kind of take care of my body and try my best to sort of shake out the pain that I was feeling in a way. So I would do these stretching routines. I would stand while I was on TV, you know, talking to the country about what was happening in Memphis. I would stand in a particular way, rooting my feet and my heels down to try to give myself this additional strength and sort of momentum to get through talking about things that were really difficult.
You know, I think people are very familiar with talk therapy. You know, there's a major effort, of course, now to de-stigmatize, reaching out to psychiatrists and therapists. And I do that too. I have a therapist, but there's a lot physically that you can do to also work on symptoms and kind of unlock trauma. And so things as simple as adding just 10 minutes of stretching when you wake up or before you go to bed or in between really difficult, you know, conversations that you have to have.
that can change everything. And so I took those steps. And then of course, like I had the conversations that I needed to have with my doctor when I came back. I met up with my therapist and processed my emotions as I was going through that. Same thing when I covered family separation at the border. I had to find people who, you know, either a fellow reporters who had covered it or.
You know, I have immigrants in my own family. So to talk to people about those experiences from the different, you know, places they approach them from, that really helped me. And so it's, it's speaking up. Being someone who is, tries not to lock things down inside and stuff them away. I try to actively process them in the moment so that they don't catch up with me later.
Jermaine (13:10)
Yeah, I really appreciate that. And I've always thought that the challenge is not just to expose and articulate the pain and the darkness, but also find ways to sustain ourselves. So I'm glad to hear that you have, it seems to me to be some very well thought out practices and that you've put a lot of energy into this to make sure that you are sustaining yourself. Because I think a lot of people ask themselves like how, either when they're reporting on or studying or just immersing.
themselves in these narratives. How do you speak to that despair? How do you speak to, you know, death and all these things, right? And still find life and still find joy and still find hope. So, you know, how do we anchor our humanity and our interconnectedness? And I think within that we find resilience and not only bear witness to the pain but then also contribute to healing as well. And so I want to get into your book now and as you said
antonia (13:49)
Yeah.
Jermaine (14:07)
before this is a decade long research effort into Crownsville Hospital. Can you tell everybody just a little bit about the background of this story, right? And how did you find yourself involved in this story and what pulled you to it a decade ago?
antonia (14:18)
Yeah.
So I was just a teenager at Harvard's campus, and I was really fascinated by the history of psychiatry and the care of people who were mentally ill. I have always been a history lover. I knew I wanted to study some realm of history when I got to college, but I also knew that I came from a family with a history of mental trauma. And when you look at the history of the treatment of mentally ill people, often...
We only talk about patients in Europe who are white, or patients in America who are white. It is very hard to find any information about black communal practices to take care of each other, or the experiences of black patients in some of these famous asylums. And so I made a huge effort as an undergraduate to try to find something. And so many of these former institutions, these segregated wards,
They shut down and they destroyed records. They tore down buildings, or in some cases, the buildings have been turned into haunted mansions you can visit around Halloween. And so when I came across a footnote that mentioned Crownsville Hospital, and I found out that not only had the state actually saved some of the records of this formerly segregated asylum, but that the buildings still stand to this day in Anne Arundel County, Maryland. And then there are former employees and patients who are still living.
I became sort of obsessed and it was this personal journey as much as it was an academic journey. Because for me, I was searching for information. I wanted to put this out and share it with the world. But I also was frankly trying to better understand some of my own ancestors and elders who had spent time in some of these places, who had been harmed by some of these institutions. And the pain in my family that had come from this history had re-
reproduced a kind of stigma and shame at times. And there were members of my family who really didn't wanna talk about loved ones who were lost or people who had suffered in that way. And so it was hard when I was a kid to get people to talk about it. So I felt like, okay, studying it is the only way I'm going to be able to understand my own family, my own people. And so it was this personal and academic journey all in one.
And at first I thought, okay, it's just gonna be my senior thesis and I'm gonna give this to the Harvard community and move on. But the story just kept nagging at me and my relationships that I built with people over those first few years, like say the first two to three years, they just stuck with me. I mean, I remained pen pals. I was constantly calling or scheduling Skypes or checking in with people who I had met along the way.
And through that process, I kept gathering new reporting, new information, new documents, new photographs. And I realized, you know, this is so much bigger than I initially thought it could be. And I think the other thing I realized in recent years, particularly around 2020, was it's not just me who wants to have this conversation. I actually think a lot more people, you know, of every background, but particularly in the black community.
want to talk more about mental health right now. They, and I don't just mean young people, Gen Z or kids graduating from college who were kind of like me back then. I mean my 91 year old great aunt who I ended up having amazing conversations with that helped me uncover and unpack some of the stories that are in the book. And so I think this is an intergenerational thing. I think we're in this fascinating moment where people are ready for a conversation that really needs to be.
that we've been deprived of that's been hidden and kept away from us in some ways. And so I feel like madness is a piece of that. It gives people an understanding of our history because I think it's really hard to imagine a better system, a better way forward. It's hard to even know what to ask for, right? We all know the system isn't treating us well. There's not enough resources to go around. There aren't enough beds and...
and therapists have these long waiting lists before they can see black patients, right? So we know something's wrong. But I think in order to figure out a solution, we need to understand, well, why does it work this way? How did our country get here? And that's what madness tries to answer.
Jermaine (18:49)
Yeah, and I think that it's so important, the work that you did in this book, by connecting the past to present, by connecting one generation to another, by getting the stories from the ancestors, right? The people who came before us, and while they're still here with us, while they are wanting to tell their stories and have that release to get their stories out, right? And I think that's so, so important because if you didn't get these stories.
They could have been lost. They could have went to the grave with so many of the people that you talked to. And I wonder about the journalistic process, right? How do you get people to open up? I mean, this is a years long endeavor of getting to know people. And there's such a humanity in that, right? Where you're getting to know people. You said you still have pen pals and it seems like you formed some very deep relationships with the people who you are interviewing and some of which were in your book. So can you just explain a little bit about
you know, that process, like how do you go into that? And you know, how do you draw those stories out? I'm sure there had to be some people who were reluctant to tell their stories as well.
antonia (19:44)
Yeah.
Definitely. There are people who I had to, you know, build trust and really show them my heart for years before they agreed to be interviewed. I mean, like five to seven years it took to before they said, okay, you can turn that recorder on and we can really talk. And so that's why, you know, when people say, Whoa, 10 years, that's a long time to work on something. Well, for a story like this, where you're asking people to open up about some of the darkest
toughest moments in their life takes time. And you have to show them that you're committed to doing the work and that you're patient and that you're a safe person for them to sit with and to talk about all that way. And so it really started just one by one, almost like dominoes. So I would meet one person and have an initial say two hour conversation with them. And then they'd introduce me to another person who then.
few months later introduced me to another person and then it just kind of spiraled from there. And I'm so glad I started this 10 years ago because so many of the elders who worked at this hospital or who were patients or had some connection to it, they're starting to pass away, we're losing them. And so if I had waited, if I hadn't stumbled upon all of this as a teenager and just decide to get started, even though I wasn't a professional journalist at that time, I didn't really know what I was doing.
but I just got started and I hit record and I took my notes, you know? But that is what allowed me to build and to have such a solid foundation that took me through these 10 years. But each person I met along the way opened a new door. They helped me build another relationship. I didn't just call people and zoom with them. I made several, many trips to the Annapolis and Baltimore area to actually sit on people's couches, to have meals with them, to show them my commitment.
I told them a bit about my life and my family's experiences in our country's mental health care systems. And so I think that level of sort of intimacy and authenticity helped make the difference there. And to this, and now that the book is even, it's over, right? Like I finished it, it's printing, and it's gonna be in stores soon. I'm still talking to all of them constantly. I mean, they call me several times a week. It's almost like...
They're a permanent part of my life and my family now. And so who knows, there may be a madness part two, there may be something else that I create out of all this because this is a community that has been desperate to have their story told, but for so long they didn't know who they could trust, for so long they didn't know how to process all of it. And so for me to just be able to play a small role in opening that dialogue, there's so much more to be done still.
Jermaine (22:35)
Yeah.
antonia (22:46)
when it comes to the issue of mental trauma and mistreatment of black patients in this country, this is just a small piece of it. But I think to be able to play a role in that, to give this community a platform, it's really the greatest honor of my life.
Jermaine (23:01)
Yeah, and it is an honor and I think it also makes you wonder, you know, how many other stories you know, not only aren't being told that could be told now, but the ones that were lost. And I want to get a little bit more into the book itself. At one point, you kind of describe Crownsville Hospital as this house of horrors, right? Can you elaborate on the conditions and the treatments that earned it this title?
antonia (23:30)
Yeah, well, let's start at the very beginning. Crownsville Hospital is the only hospital I've been able to find in American history that forced its own patients to build their own asylum. So to break down for you what that was really like, a white doctor named Dr. Robert Winterode marched a bunch of black men deep into a cold,
wild forest in the heart of Maryland in 1911. And he forced them to start clearing roads, pouring cement, harvesting tobacco and food and constructing an asylum, doing real backbreaking labor. I mean, these are not just, oh, we're carrying a bag here and there and helping people out, they were working side by side with contractors and electricians.
And there are photographs of this. There are diary and other hospital records that describe the immense work that they forced these patients to do. Something they had never forced white patients in the state of Maryland to do. So that's how the hospital's history begins with something incredibly unusual. And it raises a question, right? This is one of the first things that nagged at me when I began this research.
The state was calling all of these black men so mentally ill that they were no longer allowed to be in public. They were no longer allowed to have jobs. They had been sent to county jails and almshouses and locked up in chains. But they were well enough, somehow, they could do the work of building stunning, massive brick buildings in the middle of the woods. They could move a railroad. They could construct new roads.
They operated a highly productive modern farm. And so there's a lot of unanswered questions in there, right, of how sick were these men really? Why were they being forced to do all this? What was the state really hoping to get out of this? So that's the very beginning of its founding. And then what I...
explore in Crownsville is in this early period, the first several decades from the 1910s really up to the 1950s and early 60s. The hospital forces its patients to do an unbelievable and unusual amount of labor. Extremely difficult agricultural labor, crafts work, laundry, cooking. They are both patients, but they're almost like servants who are also serving the white employees and the white superintendent of the hospital.
The conditions are terrible. Many of them are sleeping on porches, on floors, on wooden benches. There is no school for the children who are locked up there for decades. And for a while, the state is kind of able to keep them in these conditions, right? Because so few people know what's going on. But eventually the patients start writing to black reporters and reaching out to people in the community and saying, something's going on here.
And so there's this push in the 40s and 50s to start investigating the asylum and to get the truth of what was happening there out. But in many ways, those early years, it was a house of horrors. These patients were being treated as subhuman and they were, to not mince words, being subjected to a sort of re-enslavement. And keep in mind, many of these patients had been alive for slavery. It was just 1911.
many of them, particularly some of the older patients, had been enslaved at some point in their lives. And so to find themselves back in that kind of antebellum system, you can only imagine how heartbreaking and re-traumatizing all of that would be. And I think it's really important that people understand that that's part of the beginning of the genesis of our kind of modern mental healthcare system.
this disparate treatment of patients, the very discriminatory way in which white doctors viewed black patients. I mean, they would write about them and argue that basically black people were going to become mentally ill because they couldn't handle freedom. And so the best thing you could do for a black person was to force them to do hard labor. And so when you see that as part of the sort of founding and development of our system,
even as those pieces start to go away and the civil rights movement comes and changes come, you can see how the roots affect the rest of the system all the way until 2004 when the hospital closes.
Jermaine (28:37)
That was a long time for it to be open into the modern day. And I think you're right. Yeah, yeah. When you look at the history of mental health concerning Black people, right? We're essentially unpacking this chronicle of racist ideologies masquerading as medical diagnosis, right? I'm thinking about drapedomania, which was that made up condition in the 19th century that said enslaved people, if they wanted their freedom, they were mentally ill.
antonia (28:41)
93 years.
Jermaine (29:07)
and this being an excuse to justify slavery by essentially medicalizing resistance to oppression. There's other diagnoses that are bogus that kind of are trying to explain laziness and they couldn't be human and not just want to work or not want to work in these brutal conditions because they're treated horribly, right? There's these medical diagnoses associated with that. And something that I recently found out about and
I study so much history, but this is more recent that I found out about this and I didn't know about it, was this disproportionate diagnosis of schizophrenia in black patients compared with white people, which still happens, but in the late 1960s, there was this huge shift in the diagnosis of schizophrenia in black people. And before it was seen as this condition that only affected like withdrawn individuals.
But it gets crazy because you think about schizophrenia then start to be redefined with attributes like aggression and hostility. And this is being applied to black patients. And so this coincided with the civil rights movement, right, the height of the civil rights movement. So psychiatrists then began to label like black activists protesting racial inequality as having a more aggressive type of schizophrenia. And it was termed
protest psychosis right when the civil rights movement was at its peak. So suddenly then schizophrenia is getting tagged with stuff like aggression and hostility. And you don't just want your rights, you're crazy. So we're going to lock you up. And I try to always stay shocked because I don't never want to not be shocked and numb to the history. I always want to kind of feel it. But yeah, I was definitely shocked about that. And that's just...
antonia (30:54)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (31:00)
kind of ties into what you were talking about in terms of this, the undergirding of the medical system today and how recent that this is even just starting to shift, right? It's by no way far enough away or not enough work.
antonia (31:10)
right. But that's what I mean. When I say this, every era builds upon the era that comes after it. When I say that the founding of a hospital in 1911 is still connected to what's happening in the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. That's what I mean, because I actually dig into that history in the book as well. We look at the protest psychosis by Jonathan Metzl, who's an amazing author and researcher who I spoke with for the book.
And we kind of connected our research. And that's because these sort of systems, they build on each other. When you view black people as a labor source, as being physically different, as deserving a certain level of brutalization, that that's their natural state, and then you see them be justifiably angry, protest in the street, make demands and require change.
Instead of seeing that for what it is, you cast it into the sort of preconceived notions and hierarchies and power structure that you've already constructed for yourself. So the fact that we later have patients talked about in this aggressive manner, right? And they're calling people schizophrenic who are really just fighting for their rights. That's connected to what was going on in 1911. And there's one scene in the book, there's a chapter called the curious case of the
which looks at three civil rights protesters who go into a restaurant in Maryland and are told that they will not be served because it's whites only. And because they sit in their chairs and they don't even, they don't turn anything over, nothing violent happens, they just refuse to leave the restaurant. They eventually are committed to Crownsville and labeled as insane. And eventually they're freed.
And even the head of the hospital at the time writes to the papers and tells state leaders, these people are not insane. You need to, like, this is ridiculous. He doesn't wanna be part of the show.
I think that story tells you everything about the way in which people have pathologized Black people's suffering and demands for freedom in this country.
Jermaine (33:24)
Absolutely. And how long were they in there? I'm curious before they were left free.
antonia (33:29)
They were in there for about a week and they were there for days. And they were on a hunger strike for much of that. And the employees at the time stepped up and really allowed them to, you know, have visitors and kind of have free reign of the space because they recognized immediately, oh, these aren't patients. These aren't people who have a diagnosis. There's nothing for us to do here.
You know, our hands are tied because the state has committed them here, but we're not going to, to the extent that we can, we're not going to take part in all of this. And so there's a real resistance too from the staff.
Jermaine (34:06)
Yeah, I thought-
Yeah, and I think that's an important part of the story because you're zooming in, you're zooming out. I mean, you're seeing these instances where sometimes people do try to push back, but you have these larger systems at play that, even if there's one individual person or maybe even a small group of people who wanna push back, these systems, it's so embedded, right? These ideas of racism and ideas about how black people are mentally.
you know, unfit or incapable or inferior, they're so ingrained. I mean, these things take decades and decades to kind of reverse course on that again, which we're seeing still today. And I wanted to ask you as well about the bigotry and the segregation of the Jim Crow era specifically, and just based on your findings, you know, what was the mental health care system like for black people at that time and how?
antonia (34:43)
Yeah.
Jermaine (35:04)
have you seen a shift beyond that? Because you're connecting to people past and present, past and present, and I kinda wanna know, starting with that Jim Crow era, what was it like then versus now? How far have we really come from then to now?
antonia (35:12)
Yeah.
That's a big question that I grapple with at the end of madness. How far have we really come? It's an important one. In the first half of the 20th century, there really wasn't much in the way of treatment for black people who were suffering at all. There were these segregated wards or segregated hospitals where black people could be committed, either by family members or by police officers.
Or in some cases, you know, people would accuse a Black person who was say, you know, loitering or outside or who had gotten drunk of being mentally ill. And they could be forcibly committed without their family's knowledge even. And so there were a lot of Black people lost to these asylums. And what you see in the record repeatedly is that these asylums are really like warehouses. So Black patients would be brought there, sent to these.
overflowing wards and I mean like a ward that's built for a couple dozen people having hundreds of people on it. There's no sleeping space. People are sleeping head to feet in twin beds. Some people are sleeping on open porches. Some people are sleeping in sewage and fecal matter on the floor. I mean really, really gruesome stuff.
Some of the very first black employees who arrived at Crownsville, I interviewed them and they just, one common theme that comes up even when you interview employees who don't know each other, who never worked together, is that when they arrived in the asylum as some of the first black employees, that the smell, when they would walk in, before they could even see the horror, they could smell the horror. They could just smell human suffering. And they could smell.
that the white people who were running these hospitals were refusing to clean because they didn't want to clean for black people. And so that's what they consistently told me in their oral history interviews. And so if you were not sent to one of these places, the other thing that we see is that often there was this sort of abusive labor system that would drag black people who were say developmentally delayed or who had...
other emotional challenges or who were just labeled as different in their community, they would sometimes be sent to go work for a white family as an indentured servant. That was very common on the eastern shore in Maryland, and that's a part of Maryland that has a long history of KKK activity, of cross-burnings, that kind of thing. And a lot of Black families there speak about the history of their loved ones or family members having who were...
you know, different in some way, having been sent to do labor for other white families there. And then the other place was the jail. The criminal justice system really was the other place you could go.
Jermaine (38:12)
Did you find examples of...
Did you find examples of people who tried to fight to get their family members out or was it just kind of more of this accepted, like this is kind of what the system is, right? And if they take one of your loved ones away, this is just kind of what we're dealing with. I'm sure at some point there had to be a lot more pushback for things to get changed that didn't just change on their own.
antonia (38:25)
Yes.
a lot of pushback. You know, a lot of black families were fighting and trying to figure out. In some cases, they didn't even know their loved ones were sent to Crownsville. So I spoke to nurses who would come on and talk to a patient and discover that patient had a sibling living in Baltimore or somewhere not that far away in Maryland, but that none of the staff had been ever willing to call that family member and see if they'd come pick them up. And so I spoke to one woman
She had a patient stuck at Crownsville for 27 years, 27 years, who said that none of the staff listened to them. And so when she finally made a phone call on that patient's behalf, immediately their family came and picked them up. They thought they were dead. And so it's not so much that Black people didn't care about their loved ones and just let them disappear, it was that often no one answered the phone when they called. No one believed them when they tried to report things.
This shift as the community starts to learn more through reporting and letters that are coming out of the hospital and patients who are trying to speak up and a couple of doctors and investigators who get the opportunity to go inside, as they find out more, they start to demand more. And integration, which starts to happen in the 50s and 60s, does really transform the hospital because once black nurses and doctors arrive, they start to change the practices to take much better care.
they in many cases grew up with the patients that they served. So think about that for a minute. I mean, now we have a system where if you go to get inpatient treatment for a mental health challenge, you are very unlikely to know the people who work there because there aren't enough of them. There aren't enough resources to go around. Sometimes people are traveling to other states and regions of the country to get mental health care because that's how hard it is to find good mental health care in the U S
So you're not likely to be treated by your own community and people who already love and know you. But that wasn't actually the case here at Crownsville once black people were able to get jobs. They were treating people who rode the bus with them to school. They were treating their own cousins. They were treating people they knew from church. And so there's this moment where there's this shift, right? And you get a glimpse of a different way the system could be. So you have this community taking care of itself for a moment at the hospital.
And that's a really fascinating sort of juncture and part of the history that I explore through the eyes of the black nurses and doctors, what it was like to be put into this system, into this hospital that treated your people so badly, but now was giving you an opportunity to have a job. And now you're kind of in the middle of this power structure where there's still white administrators and leaders who have these racist views of your patients, but now you have a bit of power in the middle.
And then your patients are sort of at the bottom of that totem pole. And, and what that, that power structure and struggle did to them is a big part of madness, sort of exploring the relationship between black provider and black patient. And I would say it arguably to go to your other question of like, does this idea of, well, does the system we have now, is it better? Well, now if you're a black patient looking for a black doctor or therapist, it's next to impossible to find one.
They have long, long waiting lists. You better hope you have some money to pay out of pocket because some of them can't take insurance because a lot of insurance providers are almost impossible to work with on mental health care. So whether our system is better than what we had then, I think that's an open question. And I think that period where you're seeing black doctors take care of their own community is a really fascinating one because it's like this.
moment, this brief time where you can see an option, a way things could have gone or been built up, and then it's quickly dismantled.
Jermaine (42:34)
Yeah, and I think it speaks to that across institutions, right, whether you're talking about education, whether you're talking about law enforcement, whether you're talking about medicine, it kind of speaks to that idea of how much can you change the system from within versus how much of it would need to kind of be dismantled and built anew, right? So this is the conflict that I talked to so many teachers who, you know, are within the public school systems and they have that kind of inner turmoil and conflict where they're like.
Am I really making a change within the system? I might be helping one student, but I might be helping a classroom even in some instances, but they're moving along within the system that has the same outcomes year after year after year, decade after decade, same with the medical field. So I can only imagine, especially back then, the conflict that someone might have gone through to say, hey, yeah, I need to get in there, right? I can maybe act as a buffer between these administrators who are enacting all these atrocities on the people here.
antonia (43:15)
Yeah.
Jermaine (43:31)
But then that conflict of, well, I'm in here now, I really wanna change this, but there's my hands are tied, right? And so I think that's a recurring theme throughout so many parts of black history. And I'm glad you brought that up in your book.
antonia (43:45)
Yeah, it's a question I talked about this a lot with some of the elders who came to Crownsville, who are some of the last, you know, living people who saw some of the early stages of the hospital. And one of the things that comes up a lot in those interviews is this idea of, can you be a good person and work at a place where something like this has happened? Is it worth it doing good bit by bit?
when you know there's still a lot of bad going on. And do you stay and fight for the people you can fight for? Or if because the bigger picture is bleak, do you need to leave? Those were the kinds of questions that black people, and actually not just black, I mean, I even spoke to white staff members who were also trying to be dedicated to their patients and do everything they could for them. And they were wrestling with these things actively every year on the job.
Jermaine (44:43)
I think there's hope is as long as people are willing to wrestle with that question, right? And you have people who aren't giving up who are trying to move things better in a more positive way. I think that's important. And yet it's interesting that so many people have wrestled with this. And it makes me wonder too, because I mean, you've told so many stories here and there's so many stories in the book. What story for you hit you the hardest emotionally? Like what's one story that kind of really sticks out of you? All the people you've talked to, you've got this decade in.
you're exploring, not only talking to people, but researching stories on paper, like which one really hit you in the heart.
antonia (45:21)
Oh, it's hard to choose just one. I think one of the most important, you know, characters in the book, it's sort of a weird used word to use because this is a real person who's very much still alive. Her name is Sonia King. She is a former patient at
her arrival at the hospital in the 70s. She's just 20 years old, a black girl in college at Lincoln University in HBCU. And she suffers a mental breakdown after both being sort of excluded socially in school and then also being raped by a man who she knows in her neighborhood. And she has a psychotic break afterwards and is brought to the asylum. And...
At first, she's really horrified by the asylum. She doesn't like the medication that they are forcing her to take. She's afraid living on a kind of an open dorm floor with a bunch of other patients who have all kinds of challenges. And she's, you know, not, not used to all that as really nobody would be. But then it turns out that one of her best childhood friends is working at the hospital as a nurse and her family finds out and they call the friend and her name is Faye Bell.
and Fay Belt is working in a different part of the hospital, but she adds additional hours to her shifts every day, unpaid, just to come over to the part of the hospital where her friend is. And she puts in the extra work five days a week to help her friend recover. She goes on walks with her every day. She helps her talk through her trauma and work through what happened and try to lift some of the shame she's feeling after being assaulted off of her shoulders.
And you see these two friends, them walking this campus, the grounds going out into the woods every day to process this pain that they're feeling. And you know, Faye is holding onto Sonia and letting Sonia cry on her shoulder every afternoon and doing that just going above and beyond her job. And Sonia is able to make a recovery in a matter of months and then is able to make a slow recovery back into school, back into her routine.
And then when she graduates from college, she ends up pursuing a career in which she helps other people with mental and behavioral challenges and tries to help them avoid, you know, stooping and falling as low as she did at one point. And so to me, that story was just so breathtaking when I first uncovered it. As I got to know Sonja, I was so taken by her strength, her vulnerability, and what it takes to talk about
having been institutionalized. I think a lot of people are very, when they've had those experiences, they're afraid to share them. And I know this because I've reached, not only do I have members of my family who've gone through it, but I have, you know, reached out to many patients at Crownsville who weren't able to talk for a number of reasons and who were still working through the memories or the feelings they had about spending time there. But Sonia wanted the readers to know.
that you could release your shame. She wanted readers to know that when you suffer mentally or you go through a really hard period of your life, it's just a part of your story. It's not the whole story. And I felt like I learned so much from her. She blew my mind. Just this person who had so much strength and no embarrassment, no shame, and who could talk about her entire life and everything she'd been through with so much clarity and grace and kindness for herself.
I felt like, wow, that's something I aspire to be. Like someone who is so proud of myself, who's so happy and understanding of every version of myself, right? I think a lot of us struggle with that. And she had made this unbelievable recovery and she credited Fay Belt, this one nurse, as well as some other nurses, these black women who had basically wrapped their arms around her and said, oh no, we know you, we grew up with you.
and we're not gonna let you stay at this hospital for long. We're gonna save you, we're gonna get you out of here. You're gonna get your life back on track. And they did it. And for me, that's one of these sections of the book that fills you back up with hope. You, of course, you know all the horrible things that have happened there, but you also see all the potential in people. You see how much community can transform recovery. And so to me, I think that's, whenever I reread that chapter, whenever I had to edit that chapter, I just felt like...
I sometimes I would cry happy tears and other parts of the book would make me cry not so happy tears, but I really do love that section.
Jermaine (50:15)
Yeah.
Wow, that's a powerful story. It's a powerful story. And I want to know then, you know, your book, such important work, sheds light on neglected aspects of black history, American history, moving forward for you, like deep down, what changes or conversations do you really hope that your book will spark in terms of how we as a collective society understand and address the legacy of.
of the events that happened at Crownsville and that you talk about in your book, Madness.
antonia (50:52)
You know, I would love if my book helps other families have the kinds of conversations that my family has been able to have in recent years. Doing this reporting helped me make phone calls, reach out to people, and it gave me kind of a way in to talk about family history and heartbreak in a different way. And this book has helped me talk to some of the
the older folks in my family who maybe like five, 10 years ago would have told you they don't believe in therapy, they don't want to talk about mental health. Now they want to talk about it. And I think that that's such a beautiful thing. And so if my book gives other people, other families a way to talk, if it inspires someone to reach out and get help or raise their hand or lean on a friend.
That to me, that's winning. And so that's aspiration number one. I also hope that it maybe inspires people, whether that's politicians or leaders or organizers or journalists like myself, who all play a role in these things, to imagine a better system. I think no matter who you are, what background you are from, what corner of the country you live in.
this system is not working. We see that in our reporting, we see that from all kinds of families, whether it's you have a loved one suffering with substance abuse, whether you've experienced depression and anxiety, or maybe you have a challenging diagnosis like schizophrenia, the system isn't working for most people. And what can we do to build something better that we deserve, that serves us? And maybe...
some of the stories, some of the findings in madness will help people see a different way the system could be, help people imagine some solutions. That would be a dream of mine. Just to give people the tools to talk, both on that interpersonal and familial level, but also on that national, okay, what are we going to do now at that level too?
Jermaine (53:15)
Yeah, opening up conversations, dialogue, in the macro, and in the micro and the macro on the smaller scale and the larger scale. I think that's very important. And I want to thank you, Antonia, for joining me. And I really, truly believe that you are moving forward in the tradition of one of my personal heroes of history, and that is Ida B. Wells Barnett. And she has this quote where she said, the way to right wrongs is to turn the light of truth.
antonia (53:21)
Yeah.
Jermaine (53:44)
on them. And so I think that your work has the embodiment of this ethos with this commitment to courage and integrity, speaking truth to power. I think like Aida, you are really going in on these, these dark spots in our society and having this unflinching light that you're shining on these inequities and really trying to get to the core of our collective humanity. And so I think
You know, this book offers so much clarity, so much depth, and to Crownsville Hospital. I hope everybody reads madness, gets the book. And I want to thank you for sharing your invaluable insights here on the Humanity Archive podcast. Thank you so much, Antonia. Appreciate it.
antonia (54:25)
Thank you for having me and for that compliment which is the highest compliment one could ever receive to be compared to her i think i could retire now so thank you this is been this is lovely.
Jermaine (54:39)
I truly believe it. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEIn a world where history often fades into the background of our modern lives, there lies a tale of extraordinary power, resilience, and transformation that continues to resonate through the ages. This is the story of Sundiata Keita, the legendary founder of the Mali Empire, whose epic journey from exile to emperor remains a cornerstone of West African history and culture. Within this narrative, we explore not just the events that shaped an empire, but also the profound lessons on leadership, perseverance, and the indomitable spirit of humanity.
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Embarking on a journey through the sands of time, we uncover the riveting story of Sundiata Keita, the legendary figure whose valor and wisdom laid the foundation of the Mali Empire.
The Prophesied LeaderBorn in the 13th century to King Naré Maghann Konaté and his second wife, Sogolon Condé, Sundiata was not the typical heir apparent. Crippled from birth, his early years were fraught with challenges, marked by a prophecy that foretold his rise to greatness. This prophecy not only set the stage for Sundiata's destiny but also ignited a series of events that would lead him to become the founder of one of the greatest empires in African history. It's a narrative that speaks to the heart, reminding us that greatness often emerges from the most unlikely beginnings.
The Journey of TransformationSundiata's story is a compelling chronicle of transformation. Despite his physical limitations, he possessed an unparalleled resolve. His childhood, filled with adversity, was a crucible that forged his character, teaching him the virtues of patience, tenacity, and humility. Sundiata's miraculous first steps, taken at the age of seven, were a turning point, symbolizing the dawn of a new era for the young prince and his people.
Exile and AllianceThe death of his father precipitated a period of exile, a time of reflection and growth for Sundiata. Roaming the lands beyond his kingdom, he encountered diverse cultures and forged alliances with other states and peoples. These alliances were crucial, laying the groundwork for his return. Sundiata's journey during exile epitomizes the quest for knowledge and the importance of building relationships, resonating with the proverbial truth that unity is strength.
The Battle of KirinaSundiata's return marked the beginning of an epic confrontation with Sumanguru Kante, the tyrannical ruler of the Sosso kingdom. The Battle of Kirina, a pivotal moment in West African history, was not just a clash of armies but a battle of destinies. Sundiata's strategic brilliance and the loyalty of his allies culminated in a decisive victory, paving the way for the establishment of the Mali Empire. This victory underscores the themes of courage, strategy, and the power of a united vision.
A Legacy Etched in TimeThe Mali Empire, under Sundiata's reign, flourished into a beacon of prosperity, culture, and learning. Sundiata's policies promoted social cohesion, economic prosperity, and cultural dynamism, leaving a legacy that would endure through the ages. His story, passed down through generations by griots, continues to inspire with its universal themes of overcoming adversity, the pursuit of justice, and the quest for peace and prosperity.
Sundiata Keita's epic tale, rich with historical significance and moral lessons, transcends the annals of history to serve as a beacon of inspiration and leadership. In today's world, where challenges abound, "The Epic of Sundiata" reminds us that the spirit of resilience and unity can forge empires out of adversity. It's a narrative that not only captivates the imagination but also ignites the flame of hope and determination in the hearts of all who dare to dream big.
**The Role of Griots in West African Culture**Griots are more than mere storytellers; they are the soul of West African heritage, holding the keys to centuries of oral history. Their role encompasses several crucial functions:
- Historical Chroniclers: Griots recount the history of empires, battles, and royal lineages, preserving the collective memory of society.
- Cultural Guardians: They keep alive the customs, traditions, and values of the community, passing them from one generation to the next.
- Musical Maestros: With their instruments, griots convey stories and histories, using music to enhance the emotional and cultural resonance of their tales.
- Advisors and Mediators: Often serving as counselors to kings and leaders, griots use their wisdom and knowledge of history to advise on political and social matters.
Untranslatable Words and Cultural EssenceThe language of the Mali Empire, as captured in "The Epic of Sundiata," contains words that defy direct translation, each a testament to the unique worldview of its people:
- Nyama: The spiritual force that griots believe enables them to command words and music with power.
- Fadenya: The rivalry and competition between siblings, which can drive personal growth and strengthen familial bonds.
- Jaliya: The art and profession of the griot, encompassing storytelling, history, music, and more.
The History and Legacy of the Mali EmpireAt its height, the Mali Empire was a hub of culture, wealth, and learning, marked by significant achievements:
- Architectural Wonders: The construction of monumental buildings, such as the Great Mosque of Djenné and the University of Timbuktu.
- Economic Prosperity: Control of gold trade routes that made Mali one of the wealthiest empires of its time.
- Cultural Flourishing: The patronage of the arts, literature, and science, making Timbuktu a center of Islamic learning.
Sundiata's Epic JourneySundiata's path from a challenged child to the emperor is marked by key moments of adversity, learning, and triumph:
- Overcoming Disability: Despite not walking until the age of seven, Sundiata's will to overcome his physical challenges set the stage for his future greatness.
- Exile and Return: His exile taught him resilience and the value of alliances, leading to his return and claim to the throne.
- The Battle of Kirina: Sundiata's strategic acumen was showcased in this decisive battle against Sumanguru Kante, leading to the establishment of the Mali Empire.
The Importance of Leadership and ResilienceSundiata's leadership style and his resilience in the face of adversity offer timeless lessons:
- Unity and Diversity: His ability to unite a diverse empire under a single vision showcases the power of inclusive leadership.
- Vision and Strategy: Sundiata's vision for a prosperous and united Mali, coupled with his strategic prowess, teaches the importance of planning and foresight.
- Legacy of Peace: His rule is remembered not just for its military victories but for the peace and prosperity it brought to his people.
Sundiata's epic, passed down through generations by the griots, continues to inspire with its themes of courage, leadership, and resilience. It serves as a powerful reminder of the impact one individual can have on the course of history, and the importance of preserving and honoring our cultural heritage.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES
- What is a Griot?
- African Religions and Philosophy: Jhon S. Mbiti
- Article: The True Story Behind “The Lion King.”
- Balla Kouyaté's Family Has Been Playing This Ancient Instrument For 800 Years
- The Power of Myth: Joseph Campbell
* Episode Transcript Sundiata: An Epic of the Mali Empire
I've always been fascinated by untranslatable words. Those words where one language isn't quite able to capture the essence of a word's meaning. Sudoku, for instance, is a Japanese word, which loosely translates to leaving a book unread after buying it until you have piles of unread books. Sounds so pleasant doesn't it? At least to me. But there's a distinct feeling and cultural emotion behind the word that can't quite be translated into American English. Like a teabag you would have to seep yourself and soak yourself thoroughly in Japanese culture to get a real sense of the word.
The West African word griot, is one of those words. If you look at Webster's dictionary, they define a griot as a member of a traveling group of storytellers and musicians who maintain a tradition of oral history. Makes them sound so simple and unimportant. It doesn't quite capture the feeling and the cultural emotion of the word. Webster's does not capture its essence and its true meaning. Today we are going to be like teabags, seeping and soaking ourselves in African history through the epic and story of Sundiata, the founder of the Mali Empire.
But to understand this masterpiece of oral storytelling we have to understand what a griot is. The griot is inseparable from this story. You see, without a book to relate this story because West Africa was steeped in the oral tradition, so without a book to relate the story, there's no written word, the griot is the book. Sundiata had a griot who remembered his deeds and passed them down to another griot, who passed it down to griots, who passed it down to more griots for some 765 years. This story takes place in the mid 13th century or in medieval times.
Now the word griot was a prime example of the colonization of language. It has been made European but in the native West African tongue, the word djeli is more accurate. Djeli literally meaning blood. Now this should let you know how important these people were and are in West African society. They are the masters of the word, the keepers of tradition. Just as blood is crucial to the survival of the body, griots are crucial to the survival of history and tradition. Now in the pre-colonial era, griots were walking encyclopedias, hyper serious historians.
Advisers to kings. Mediators in national and international disputes. Ambassadors, diplomats, archivists, genealogists, masterful musicians, and so much more. You can see why this word is untranslatable. Now as a historical storyteller myself, I could only hope to aspire to this level of prestige and craft of oral storytelling. To have the poetic and rhythmic and dramatic cadence to my stories. To be a living, breathing heartbeat and primary source of history. That's what a griot was.
So it is only through the griot or the djeli, that I am able to relate this epic of Sundiata Keita. It is only through them that I tell you this story. Now the griot whose words were transcribed was named Mamadou Kouyaté, who hails from the same Malinke culture of Mali as Sundiata, the founder of Mali and he is the one who this story has been passed down to for those 765 years. I wish I could have been there to hear Kouyaté tell the story and breathe new life back into this medieval story. To see the soul and the art and the griot celebrating Africa's finest most subtle and sublime music and stories but Djeli Mamadou Kouyaté starts the epic of Sundiata this way when he says, "I am a griot. It is I, Djeli Mamadou Kouyaté, son of Bintou Kouyaté.
We are the vessels of speech, we are the repositories which harbor secrets for us. Without us, the names of kings would vanish into oblivion. We are the memory of mankind; by the spoken word we bring to life the deeds and exploits of Kings for younger generations. I teach kings the history of their ancestors so that the lives of the ancients might serve them as an example. For the world is old, but the future springs from the past. My word is pure and free from all untruth. It is the word of my father. It is the word of my father's father. I will give you my father's word just as I receive them. Royal griots do not know what lying is.
Listen to my words, you who want to know; by my mouth you will learn the history of Mali. Listen then sons of Mali, children of the black people. Listen to my word for I'm going to tell you of Sundiata, the ancestor of those who draw the bow; the master of a hundred vanquished Kings. I am going to tell you of Sundiata, Lion of Mali, he whose exploits will astonish men for a long time yet. He was great among kings. He was fearless among men. He was beloved of God because he was the last of the great conquerors."
Buckle up everyone, this is the story of fate and of destiny. And this is the story of heroism. This is the story of a family. And this is the story of magic and a story of exile, and the story of return. This is a story of Mali. This is a story of Sundiata, the Lion King an epic of the Mali Empire. Let's get into it!
Welcome to The Humanity Archive podcast. I am your gracious host Jermaine Fowler and today I have a fascinating story for you. One that you may have never heard, but even if you have, you've never heard it in a way that I am going to tell it. Now, when I was researching for this West African epic of Sundiata, I had a thought; that looking back at Black global history, is like trying to look through a foggy window. You know things are clear on the other side yet you never can quite see past the hazy gloom of European colonialism.
Trust me, I would like nothing more than to tell this story of Sundiata without any mention of European influence, but one can not escape the influence on the history itself. The influence being that; so much of this oral history was surely lost in the translation to English, and much of the analysis on this epic is in the European perspective. There's also this ugly fact and the unfairness of all of this is that; if someone colonizes and conquers and enslaves you, then they can bear your history and they often do. A people with a history, have an identity. So if you erase that history, it's like erasing fingerprints and hiding evidence so this story didn't even resurface until the 1960’s.
And even when it did surface, it never really has become mainstream in America, as say the old English epic of Beowulf. I watched that movie in social studies class. It never has become as popular as the ancient Greek epic poem The Odyssey by Homer. So this story in its history was largely erased and then some of it was hidden, right? The griots, this is a secret history. So they weren't so quick to tell. So the combination of these two things has made for the epic of Sundiata to become obscure to us. And then in the '60s, scholar and historian D.T.
Niane went to a tribe, gained their trust and was able to transcribe this story, but it was also transcribed before by the French. So when it comes to the continent of Africa, we don't see a lot of their stories. To a lot of Westerners, Africans don't exist. Patricia C. McKissack who was a prolific writer and who gave us so much Black history, mirrors this sentiment when she says, "For well over a thousand years from about A.D. 500 to 1700, the civilizations of Western Africa flourished. Most of us know nothing about them. During the same period, Europe suffered from constant warfare and only slowly recovered its lost glory.
The history of the dark ages of the Renaissance is taught in every school. Most of Africa's history, except for that of Egypt, remains unknown to the general reader. But there were great kingdoms in the Western Sudan waiting to be discovered. Once knowledge of these old empires resurfaced, some claim that Jews, who had rebelled against the Roman in Cyrenaica (Libya), had migrated to the Western Sudan around A. D. 115 and built these civilizations. Another group pushed the theory that Sudanese achievements were the results of Arab invasions and the coming of Islam. Some even suggested that African accomplishments were the result of visitors from outer space.
Any wild idea was more acceptable than to admit that Africans had the intellect and ingenuity to develop and control well-ordered empires. The purpose of all of these erroneous theories was simply to justify slavery and attitudes of racial superiority." So there are all these misconceptions and stereotypes about African civilization I feel compelled to shatter, before I really get into the story. The history of Africa is long. It dates way back, way back to the birth of civilization. Yet even though Egypt is called the flower of antiquity, many refuse to believe the ancient Egyptians were Africans.
They call the people of Africa, South of the Sahara, Sub-Saharan Africans, in order to separate them from the achievements of Egypt as if it was some impenetrable barrier, but it wasn't as we'll find. There were camel caravans going back and forth, but not only in Northern Africa, there were empires everywhere in Africa, in Kush, there were the Zulu, there was those in Aksum, in Ethiopia, and Nubia. And then there was the West African traditions and empires in Ghana, Mali and the Songhai. So on the next two episodes, we're going to zoom in on the Mali Empire of West Africa.
And yes, I said empire and yes, I said in Africa. An empire in the fullest sense of the word and with all the accoutrements, the military power, the central government, the rulership, the politics, all of it right there in Western Africa. The people who ruled the Mali Empire, also called the Mandinka or the Mandingo people, were a force to be reckoned with. They were skilled navigators of the mighty Niger river. They were agriculturalists domesticating crops like millet, sorghum, african rice, peanuts, okra, and cola. They were Blacksmiths making advances in the moulding of iron into tools and weapons.
They had a fully formed military with skilled horsemen forming an adept calvary. They had tremendous wealth with gold being the most prized export. They were hunters with fantastic abilities in tracking and staying alive in the wilderness. They were monarchs and kings and queens with the fate of nations at their fingertips. They were also musicians and cooks and mothers and fishermen and fathers and teachers and artisans. And they also enslaved their enemies and were shot through with sexism like many societies of the medieval world. They may not have been any better in some regards, but they certainly were not any worse than any other civilization on the globe at this time and that's what I want you to understand, contrary to the beliefs that we have been shot through with that have us disregarding the continent of Africa and its history.
We need to put it right up there and uplift it with all other civilizations in history. So the Mali empire was an Empire and a civilization in all its glory and all its flaws. They were thoroughly and completely human. And when I think of Mali, I think of this impressive country bordered by the Sahara Desert, which is the scorching and dusty and barren ocean of brown sand. Then I think of those great mosques, like the one at Djenné in Mali. Look it up, it's fantastic! There are these wonderful beige colored sand castle buildings dwarfing people on the street. And it is in this setting in the 13th century where our story is going to begin.
Now the first thing that we have to remember is that the story of Sundiata is an epic and by definition, and typically one derived from ancient oral tradition, narrating the deeds and adventures of heroic and legendary figures of history or the history of a nation. And they often include some mythical and fantastic and unbelievable stuff. So I'm going to tell you that right now. So it's this larger than life kind of tale. For instance, in the epic there's a line that says when Sundiata was born, that the sky opened up and it darkened and these great clouds hid the sun and then the thunder lit up the night sky. This is the kind of drama that is laid on thick.
So there's the immaculate conception and this prophecy that says Sundiata will be this great ruler. And what's really interesting is that the griot who is telling the story of Sundiata says you have to believe him for he is not capable of telling lies. We cite other books; the sources in our writing. His sources are his ancestors. His credentials are a code of honor to tell the story exactly as it's been told to him. Look at it like this too, even if the Sundiata story is mythology, we can go to the late Professor Joseph Campbell for he makes the argument that even mythology is true.
When he says, "mythology is not a lie. Mythology is poetry. It is metaphorical. It has been well said that mythology is the penultimate truth. Penultimate because the ultimate can not be put into words. It is beyond words, beyond images, beyond that bounding rim of the Buddhist Wheel of Becoming. Mythology pitches the mind beyond that rim to what can be known, but not told." Campbell believed that myths hold the key to understanding human experience. They may vary superficially from culture to culture, but at their deepest level, they all reveal the path to self fulfillment, social integration, and ultimately transcendence.
Some deep stuff there Joseph Campbell was onto. You can look at his whole philosophy and ideas in these fantastic Bill Moyer specials that he did in like the '80s I think it was. And he had this whole philosophy and theory of the hero's journey. And this is very much a hero story we're learning now, so that's why I tied him in. But the story of Sundiata starts with a retelling of the lineage of the Bombora Kings or the Mandingo Kings or the Malinke Kings. Is there a code? A lot of you have heard the term Mandingo warriors. Well this is where it comes from. So Sundiata comes from this long line of hunter kings. His fathers and grandfathers were hunters and rulers.
His father Maghan Kon Fatta was called Maghan the Handsome. So apparently he's this handsome and dashing man. And the griot makes a point to say that Kon Fatta had three wives and six children. Now this is where some of you out there may really have to shift your thinking a bit because polygamy was as common in West Africa as monogamy is in America. I think we have to take pause there because we have to look at that. According to anthropologists, and if you look at it through that view, only one in six societies enforces monogamy as a rule. Why? Pragmatic maybe? If you have more children, you have more manpower. High levels of infant mortality may have been a factor.
When many children do not survive past the age of five, a family needs more than one child to be economically viable. Now we know that our American society is injected heavily with Christianity and that Christianity condemns polygamy as an offense against the dignity of marriage. And I'm sure that may be the view that a lot of the audience out there holds. But agree or disagree this was a way of life that cultural imperialism stamped out, forced out. So the critical question here is whether it's right to force people to believe the way that you believe, like literally force them? Even if you believe what they're doing is wrong. I'll leave that rhetorical question up to you to ponder.
But relevant here is, I think that these types of things immediately adds a taboo to the Western mind that allows us to form a bias against people. For instance, if people of Africa marry different than us, it's alien and taboo, therefore they are alien and taboo. If they dance and worship differently than us, then that is alien and taboo. Therefore they are alien and taboo. You see where this can lead to the dehumanization of a people, to the alienation of a people, to the condemnation of a people. So I think we do have to be careful there. But back to Sundiata. We are told that his father, Maghan Kon Fatta, was King of Mali and his seat was in the capital city, which was called Niani.
And one day a sooth saying hunter foretells that he will produce a great ruler through his marriage of an unsightly and ugly woman. Pause one more time because I have to say a word on soothsayers. Now again, keep in mind that a lot of this story is grounded in the traditional, what has been deemed as an African belief in a system of magic. Now again, we have to stop colonist European perspective, like a snake sheds it scaly weathering skin. Those definitions that would consider this magic as unrefined superstition. Those of Africa would say these are wise men and wise women not soothsayers and not fakes. They had real beliefs and traditions we're talking about here.
So I don't think we should just brush them off. And we can go to African scholar, John S. Mbiti, because he fiercely argued that African religion deserved the same respect as any other. And he says, "there is a mystical order governing the universe. The belief in this order is shown clearly in the practice of traditional medicine, magic, witchcraft, and sorcery. It is held in all African societies that there is a power in the universe and that it comes from God. It is a mystical power in that it is hidden and mysterious. African religions were as deeply rooted and as legitimate as Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism."
Why is it so hard for us to have a respect for and a tolerance for a traditional African religion even if we don't believe in it? Because even if we don't believe in Buddhism, people have an underlying respect for it. Even if we don't believe in Islam, we have an underlying respect for it. Why don't we have that same respect for African religion? And this goes back to what I said just a couple of minutes ago about the alienation, dehumanization, and condemnation of people who we don't understand. And that's why I think the story is pivotal to our understanding of those on the continent of Africa.
We have to hear the stories. We have to hear their history so that we can see their humanity. But in any case, religion is a tricky thing, right? Precisely because the beliefs are so strong. So later these two hunters bring a woman to offer as Maghan Kon Fatta's wife and Maghan Kon Fatta sees that this is the foretold woman Sogolon. The hunters earn her by defeating a monstrous buffalo that was terrorizing a land far, far away. Through the showing of kindness to an old woman, they were taught the secret of the buffalo. And then they were given their choice of woman by the King whose realm was being terrorized by the buffalo. Now the old woman told them to choose the ugliest maid and they did.
Now I'll be honest again. I got to inject some personal thought here, that hearing about choosing women like this sounds a little disturbing, but I can't help but notice, today that arranged marriages like this were the norm in Russia and America and all across the world for the first half of the 20th century. Arranged marriages were common in families in the United States and in some wealthy families they still are. And I say that just to caution you again, by judging African systems of being and relating in society in isolation, you have to tie them into the normalcy of human behavior.
Whether you think it's right or wrong, don't isolate it, don't alienate. But unfortunately gender equality took a bit of a backseat, but I'm glad that's being discussed more now. So anyway, the king takes Sogolon for his wife and we fast forward. And then Sundiata is conceived. Now Sundiata's father has three wives. Sassouma is the mother of King Dankaran Touman. Sogolon is the mother of Kolonkan and Djamarou and Sundiata. And Namandjé was his third wife and she was the mother of Manding Bory. And he would go on to be Sundiata's best friend and that's his half brother.
Now this extended family is going to play a pivotal and important role in this whole story and that's why I spent so much time talking about these marriage arrangements and kind of how this whole thing plays out. Now in childhood Sundiata faces two obstacles; first because of the prophecy, the king's first wife, Sassouma Bérété, spreads vicious rumors about him and his mother Sogolon in an effort to elevate her own son's stature. And second Sundiata is disabled. He does not even walk until the age of seven. And here we see this intermarriage rivalry as one of the challenges of this polygamous lifestyle for these two wives.
And in this particular story it's going to cause some life-threatening issues for Sundiata because not only is there scorching jealousy in this particular case, but only one son can ascend the throne. And this is the stuff that assassinations are made of, jealousy and lust for power. We see the anger brewing inside of Sassouma Bérété whose own son Dankaran Touman she wanted on the throne. And we see this jealousy in the story when the Djeli tells us, "Sogolon, Sundiata's mother, now walks freely in the king's great enclosure and people also got used to her ugliness. But the first wife of the king, Sassouma Bérété, turned out to be unbearable.
She was restless and smarted to see the ugly Sogolon proudly flaunting her pregnancy about the palace. What would become of her, Sassouma, if her son, already eight years old, was disinherited in favor of the child that Sogolon was going to bring in to the world? All of the King's attention went to the mother-to-be. Soon, dark schemes took form in the mind of Sassouma Bérété." So Sundiata was born and there is this disability. Now make no mistake, the same stigma of the disabled, the same prejudice of the disabled, the same things that happen in current society seem to have taken place in ancient Mali as well.
The town's people questioned, when Sundiata was three, what three year old has not taken his first steps, especially when prophesied to be a future king. On the contrary, Sassouma's son Dankaran, he was becoming a fully formed young man. At seven, Sundiata still crawled about. One day, the king who was distraught because of his disabled successor Sundiata, came to the house a blacksmith and a seer who said, "When the seed germinates, growth is not always easy; great trees grow slowly, but they plunge their roots deep into the ground."
This reinvigorated Maghan Kon Fatta's confidence in prophecy. So he bestows upon Sundiata his griot, Balla Fasséké, the son of his own griot. Now all Kings had griots, all prince's had griots. So this is the ultimate form of confidence that even though things look bleak, even though his son could not walk, even though he barely spoke that belief that he would overcome and lead the Mali empire, Sundiata and Balla were then inseparable friends. It was the griot who passed down the story of kings. So the griot and the princes and kings were inseparable.
Then the King Maghan Kon Fatta dies. And against his wishes, his elder son, Dankaran Touman is given control by the elders who do not see much future in the crippled boy, Sundiata. So this is where we really start to see the sibling rivalry between Sundiata and his brother and all the uninterrupted hostility. And it makes me wonder, are children capable of envy in this time in life? And I mean envy in all of its intensity and distinctness. Now, if I think back about the relationship between me and my two brothers and how we used to argue over the video game controller, I'd say yes. Here we have brothers who are battling for a literal throne. So Sassouma is now the queen mother and Sundiata was now spoken of with scorn and with hatred.
Sassouma banished Sogolon and Sundiata and his siblings to a backyard of the Royal Palace, like dogs never allowed in the house. And this is a public ridicule. Sundiata is a sideshow, persecuted, laughed at, stigmatized, unable to walk. One day when Sogolon was embarrassed by the queen mother, Sundiata uses a rod to help himself stand on two legs. And from this day onwards his strength is unmistakable. Now remember this is an epic. So Sundiata didn't just stand on two legs uneventfully in the story, he stood up and the ground shook and the rod he used to help himself up transformed into a bow.
All in dramatic fashion, all to uplift this hero in even more compelling fashion. It is said that his first steps were those of a giant. Sundiata's griot, Balla Fasséké, fell into step and he pointed his finger at Sundiata and he cried, "Room! Room! Make room! The lion has walked. Hide antelopes. Get out of his way!" And the griot Djeli Mamadou Kouyaté, who is telling us this story says, "From that day forward the queen mother had no more peace of mind, but what can one do against destiny? Nothing. Man, under the influence of certain illusion, thinks he can alter the course which God has mapped out. But everything he does falls into a higher order which he can barely understand."
So Sundiata has went from the scorned and ridiculed child to the popular contender. His brother Manding Bory is by his side. And he has a lot of the other princes, whose fathers had sent them to the court at Niani, and they fell in around him. His griot, Balla Fasséké, is instructing him and at a young age he had already attained the title of simbon, master hunter. It is said he had the strength of ten men at the age of 10. Frightened that her own son would lose his control, the queen mother Sassouma Bérété, tries to kill Sundiata. So she consults some witches to assist. And they would only assist if a wrong was done to them. So a scheme was put into place for the witches to steal some vegetables from Sogolon's garden, which it was Sundiata's duty to watch.
So he's off on a hunting trip and then he comes back just in time to catch them stealing and something happens. They thought it was going to punish them brutally but he shows them empathy. He sees that they're poor and hungry older women and he feeds them. From then, they can do him no harm. So Sassouma exiles Sundaita, Sogolon, and their immediate family and to make matters worse, Sundiata's griot, Balla Fasséké is taken as a prisoner after he was sent as part of a delegation to the powerful king to the land called Sosso.
And this is a land of the Ghana Empire and this powerful king's name is Soumaoro Kanté. We're going to hear a lot more about him a little later in the story, but Sundiata has lost his griot. So he is in exile and for seven years he and his family traveled from asylum to asylum. Sometimes being shown great hospitality and occasionally being mistreated by their hosts. Seven winters passed and as Sundiata passes through the towns and cities of Mali, he is making allies because people love him. He has strength and he has power and he has vision. And remember he was a natural leader.
Remember this, he gains love and he gains respect. So the family finally settles in Ghana, in Wagadou, land of the Soninke people. The land of the most ancient West African Empire. And the Soninke were great traders. And there were tethered camels everywhere and this landscape looks different. All the while Sundiata learns of new people and new customs and while impressing most people he meets, he spends a particularly long time with Moussa Tounkara at Mema who helps raise Sundiata and teaches him the ways of war so as to potentially groom the boy as his heir. This is how impressed he was with the young man.
And the story goes like this from the mouth of the griot, he says, "It was at the court of Mema that Sundiata and Manding Bory went on their first campaign. Moussa Tounkara was a great warrior and therefore he admired strength. When Sundiata was 15, the king took him with him on campaign. Sundiata astonished the whole army with his strength and with his dash in the charge. In the course of a skirmish against the mountaineers, he hurled himself on the enemy with such vehemence that the king feared for his life. But Mansa Tounkara admired bravery too much to stop the son of Sogolon. He followed him closely to protect him and he saw with rapture how the youth sowed panic among the enemy.
He had remarkable presence of mind; struck right and left and opened up for himself a glorious path. He eclipsed all the young princes and was the friend of the whole army. Sundiata was loved by most. And those who didn't love him, feared him. He was made Viceroy of Mema and ruled in the king's absence." Now before we go too much further, because we were about halfway through this, I want to pause just like the griot Djeli Mamadou Kouyaté and remember he is the contemporary griot who has this epic passed down to him over hundreds of years, and he has something to say about Mali's oral history.
Because again, I cannot refrain from telling you how important this oral history is. It conveys something that written words cannot. And he says, "Other peoples use writing to record the past but this invention has killed the faculty of memory among them. They do not feel the past anymore for writing lacks the warmth of the human voice. With them, everybody thinks he knows, whereas learning should be a secret. The prophets did not write and their words have been all the more vivid as a result. What poetry learning is that which is congealed to dumb books? Get your mind around that. I, Djeli Mamadou Kouyaté, I'm the result of a long tradition.
For generations we have passed on the history of kings from father to son. The narrative was passed on to me without alteration, and I deliver it without alteration, for I have received it free from all untruth." And again, I just want to keep weaving that into the story because it is so important to this story as this living and breathing thing. So as Sundiata is preparing to assert his claim to the kingdom of his fathers, he has to contend with Soumaoro, the king of kings. Soumaoro is this vicious and ugly figure. He is this wizard and he is something like out of a nightmare.
The story of this evil villain is like a horror movie you watch with the lights on. It's said that he has a seven storey tower that he lives in and he's this great sorcerer and he has these walls draped in human skin and it's full of secret chambers and he keeps the heads of kings that he slayed on pikes in the secret room. People believed he was invincible because of his magic. His reign produced nothing but bloodshed and terrorism. Sundiata also learns during his exile about this evil sorcerer, King Soumaoro Kanté, who is slowly forcing the cities of Mali and beyond under his control through cruelty and conquest. When Niani falls to the sorcerer king, a search party is sent to Ghana to find Sundiata and ask him to claim his mantle as ruler.
Around the same time, Dankaran Touman, the king of Mali and Sundiata's half-brother, tries to wage war on Soumaoro. He is devastated. Now Soumaoro is the King of Mali. The conquering of Mali sets up the final chapter of our story here. Though his choice to return to Mali and battle the sorcerer king upsets Moussa Tounkara, Sundiata is getting half Tounkara's army. He asked to go reclaim his throne and go against the man who has reigned death and destruction and terror on his motherland, his homeland, his soil in Mali. He has a lot of vested interest here. People all around him are calling on him.
He can't let them down. Encouraging him to go home, his people need him. The people said, "Maghan Sundiata. I salute you, King of Mali. The throne of your fathers awaits you. Whatever rank you may hold here, leave all these honors and come and deliver your fatherland. The brave await you. Come and restore rightful authority to Mali. Weeping mothers pray only in your name. The assembled kings await you, for your name alone and inspires confidence in them. Son of Sogolon. Your hour has come. You are the giant who will crush the giant Soumaoro." After these words, profound silence reigned over the room.
"Very well," he said, "it is no longer time for words. I am going to ask the king's leave and we will return immediately. Manding Bory, take charge of the envoys for Mali." Sundiata got up and all of the envoys stood up. He was already king. At the age of 18 he had this stateliness of the lion and the strength of the buffalo. His voice carried authority. His eyes were live coals. His arm was iron. He was the husband of power. Moussa Tounkara, King of Mema, gave Sundiata half of his army. The most valiant came forward of their own free will to follow Sundiata in the great adventure.
The Calvary of Mema, which he had fashioned himself, formed his iron squadron." Sundiata goes to many cities and lands that he visited during his period of exile on his way to Mema. And he slowly builds his army with the allies and the people who had admired him before. And the story gets very real here because the griot describes Sundiata's military formed nations, and his units and his strategies and battles. So Sundiata advances his army to where Soumaoro is, but Soumaoro sends a detachment under his son Sosso Balla to block Sundiata's route. And the story of the battle goes like this, "All of the war chiefs thought it was best to fight in the morning but Sundiata was immoveable.
So the orders were given and the war drums began to beat. On his proud horse Sundiata turned right and left in front of his troops. He entrusted the rear guard composed of a part of the Wagadou Calvary to his younger brother, Manding Bory. Having drawn his sword, Sundiata led the charge shouting his war cry. The Sossos were surprised by the sudden attack for they all thought that the battle would be joined the next day. The lightning that flashes across the sky is slower, the thunderbolts less frightening and the flood waters less surprising, than Sundiata swooping down on Sosso Balla and his smiths. In a trice, Sundiata was in the middle of the Sossos like a lion in the sheepfold.
The Sossos, trampled under the hooves of his fiery charger, cried out. The horsemen of Mema, wrought a frightful slaughter in the long lances pierced of flesh like a knife sunk into a pawpaw. Charging ever forward, Sundiata looked for Sosso Balla. He caught sight of him and bounded towards the son of Soumaoro. His sword held aloft. His arm came sweeping down, but at that same moment a Sosso warrior came between Sundiata and Sosso Balla and he was sliced like a calabash. Sosso Balla did not wait and disappeared from amidst his smiths. Before the sun disappeared behind the mountains, there were only Sundiata and his men left in the valley."
Sundiata has won his first battle but the war isn't over. But finally his army has come up against those of Soumaoro. And though Sundiata is successful in his battles, he could not harm the sorcerer king because the latter has magical protections. The story goes that Sundiata throws his iron tip spear and it bounces right off the chest of Soumaoro like it hit a rock. We're told that Soumaoro catches one of Sundiata's other arrows in mid-flight and then he magically disappears off the battlefield. Sundiata is bewildered. He wonders how can he defeat such a man. A sorcerer himself, he turns to magic for help and through sacrifice he is able to craft a magical arrow.
At this point Sundiata's griot, Balla Fasséké had escaped and met Sundiata's half sister to reunite with him. And now Sundiata had the singer who would carry on his memory by his words. We're told that Sundiata pitches camp in the valley of the Niger River preparing for this final showdown. And this was going to be the final battle. Yet there was never a declaration of war and this was a custom in West Africa. So here we see this exchange between Sundiata and Soumaoro, their very first exchange of words. And again, this is an epic. So it's actually carried on, like their voices, through the voices of two owls. Like there are two magical owls. They have these pet owls, I guess, that are magic in part of their whole magical tradition.
But just imagine these two talking to each other, and it's fascinating and it's full of bravado and it's almost like a hip-hop rap battle. So this is them going back and forth.
Soumaoro: "Stop young man! Henceforth I am the King of Mali. If you want peace, return to where you come from."
Sundiata: "I am coming back, Soumaoro, to recapture my kingdom. If you want peace, you will make amends to my allies and return to Sosso where you are king."
Soumaoro: "I am King of Mali by force of arms. My rights have been established by conquest."
Sundiata: "Then I will take Mali from you by force of arms and chase you from my kingdom."
Soumaoro: "Now then I am the wild yam of the rocks. Nothing will make me leave Mali."
Sundiata: "Know also that I have in my camp seven master smiths who will shatter your rocks. Then yam, I will eat you."
Soumaoro: "I am the poisonous mushroom that makes the fearless vomit."
Sundiata: "As for me, I am the ravenous cock. The poison does not matter to me."
Soumaoro: "Behave yourself little boy or you will burn your foot, for I am the red hot cinder."
Sundiata: "But me, I'm the rain that extinguishes the cinder. I'm the boisterous torrent that will carry you off."
Soumaoro: "I am the mighty silk cotton tree that looks on high on tops of other trees."
Sundiata: "I am the strangling creeper that climbs to the top of the forest giant."
Soumaoro: (upset) "Enough of this argument."
Sundiata: "You shall not have Mali. Know that there is not room for two kings on the same skin."
Soumaoro: "Sundiata, you will let me have your place."
So now for the final fight! And I would say that the odds are with Sundiata at this point. He is a master of a very formidable army and they're full of morale and excitement.
He's the people's champ. He has destiny working for him as well. Then there is Balla Fasséké and he is the ultimate morale booster. The night before the showdown he gives a riling speech and says, "Now, I address myself to you Maghan Sundiata. I speak to you King of Mali. You Maghan, you are a Mali. It has had a long and difficult childhood like you. You are the outgrowth of Mali just like the silk cotton tree is the growth of the earth, born of deep and mighty roots. To face the tempest, the tree must have long roots and gnarled branches. What will we have to teach our sons so that your memory will stay alive?
What unprecedented exploits? What unheard of feats? By what distinguished actions will our sons be brought to regret not having lived in the time of Sundiata? Griots are men of the spoken word. And by the spoken word, we give life to the gestures of kings. But words are nothing, power lies in deeds. Be a man of action. Do not answer me anymore with your mouth, but tomorrow on the plain of Krina show me what you would have me recount to coming generations." And here I'm going to let Djeli Mamadou Kauyoté tell us of this final battle and try to channel the words as he might have said them.
He says, "With his powerful voice Sundiata cried his war cry. The order was repeated from tribe to tribe and the army started off. Soumaoro stood on the right with his calvary. Sundiata and his calvary charged with the great dash, but were stopped by the horsemen of Diaghan and a struggle to the death began. The archers of Wagadou stretched out their lines towards the hills and the battles spread over the entire plain, while an unrelenting sun climbed the sky. The horses of Mema were extremely agile and they reared forward with the force of their hooves raised and swooped down on the horsemen of Diaghan, who rolled on the ground trampled under the horses hooves.
Presently the men of Diaghan gave ground and fell back towards the rear. The enemy center was broken." The battle goes on more. And Sundiata knicks Soumaoro with the magical arrow and the sorcerer king loses his power. Soumaoro retreats and escapes and Sundiata pursues Soumaoro for several days, finally trapping him in a cave with nowhere to go. He has won. The prophecy is fulfilled. And from that day forward we see that destiny has run its full course. The lion king is crowned that day. Sundiata returns to Niani and he founds the Mali Empire splitting it up to show respect for all those rulers who promised to serve him.
And again, Djeli Mamadou Kauyoté ends the epic by praising Sundiata, his rule as this golden age in the Mali empire when he says, "Maghan Sundiata was unique in his own time. No one equaled him and after him no one had the ambition to surpass him. He left his mark on Mali for all time and his taboo still guide men in their conduct. Mali is eternal. To convince yourself of what I have said, go to Mali. At Tigan, you will find the forest dear to Sundiata. Go to Kirikoroni near Niassola, and you will see that tree which commemorates Sundiata's passing through these parts. Men of today, how small are you beside your ancestors?
And small in mind too. For you have trouble grasping the meaning of my words. Sundiata rests near Niani, but his spirit lives on and today the Keitas still come to bow before the stone under which lies the father of Mali." What is the legacy of Sundiata and the Mali Empire? I think first we have to pay homage to the politics of Sundiata's Empire. You see when he conquered and ascended the throne, we're told he was a just ruler and he gathered all the kings and created the Kouroukan Fouga. And this was the Mali constitution of human rights. And as far as we know, it's one of the oldest constitutions.
Some say it even predated the Magna Carta of England. So when we discuss the world history of political thought, it would be a travesty not to mention this amongst the great traditions and constitutions that affirmed the rights for communities and citizens. For instance, this constitution affirms a right to life and there's an edict in there that says all the community are responsible for educating the children, not just the parents. So it has all these different rights and responsibilities of the community in it. The legacy of Sundiata lives on through the art, and through the music, and through the culture, and the religion, and the myths, and the legends, and the proverbs, and the remnants of the great mosques and other buildings. But for me, my grand hope is that this story uplifts and highlights epics or oral narratives as windows to the past.
And I hope it highlights the rich history and heritage of West Africa and also Africa as a whole and that it uplifts this epic right next to all the other grandest and greatest epics the world over. I hope that through these stories that we can begin to garner a respect and a connection to the oral tradition, not just blow it off. And the tradition that we have of reading books that we say that civilizations don't have a monopoly on history just because they created an alphabet. I hope that we have a respect for those in the indigenous cultures, like the griots whose duty was to memorize and recite historical information.
There are so many other similar myths from other parts of Africa, in Ireland and Tibet. So again, I hope these national myths show us more of our similarities than it does our differences with these themes: family, and heroism, and courage, and jealousy even. The good and the bad. The humanity of us all. That is my profound hope. And remember the words of Djeli Mamadou Kayouté. You must believe in this fantastic story and the glory of Sundiata, the founder of the Mali empire, for the royal griots do not know what lying is.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to my first episode in Season 2 of The Humanity Archive podcast. I sincerely hope you enjoy listening to this story as much as I enjoy telling it. Rich details of Western Sudanese culture: the music, the dress, the customs, the people, the resilience of the religious practices, the hunting and trading, the political organization in the primacy of storytelling, and the preservation of history through the spoken word. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe on Apple and Spotify and leave a review. And also you can join my Patreon community where I have study guides and additional bonus podcast content as well as other resources to help you learn. Join me next time for part two and the final part of this short series entitled Mansa Musa: Master of Gold. I'll see you next time.
with Sharon Mcmahon
**APPLE PODCASTS** **|** **SPOTIFY** **|** **YOUTUBE**Ever thought about how a single person can change the course of history? Sharon McMahon, a teacher who shifted gears to become a leader in nonpartisan political education, dives deep into this question. She brings to the table a conversation that's not just about politics and history, but about how we can all make a real difference.
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Sharon’s insights serve as a beacon for those looking to make a tangible impact in today’s politically charged atmosphere. Here’s what we cover:
Why Libraries Matter More Than EverFostering Curiosity: Sharon emphasizes the magic of libraries. They're not just buildings with books; they're launchpads for curiosity and learning.
Building Connections: It's in libraries where we connect dots, from past events to current issues, shaping informed citizens.
Making History and Government EngagingLessons from Current Events: Sharon shares her secret sauce – using today's news to make government and history lessons come alive.
Beyond the Classroom: She stresses the importance of learning outside the traditional setting, encouraging a hands-on approach to understanding politics.
The Challenge of Extremism and Online NegativityCritical Thinking as a Shield: Facing the tide of online extremism and negativity, Sharon underlines the need for critical thinking and open dialogue.
Action Over Echo Chambers: It's easy to get trapped in an online bubble. Sharon pushes for real-world activism that leads to tangible change.
Everyone Can Make an ImpactUnique Contributions: Sharon believes that activism isn't one-size-fits-all. Everyone has something unique to offer, and every small action counts.
The Power of Philanthropy: Through stories of giving back, she illustrates how philanthropy can transform lives.
A Look Back to Move ForwardLearning from the 1970s: Sharon touches on historical milestones like the Pentagon Papers and leaders like Nixon and Lincoln, drawing lessons that resonate today.
The Complexity of History: Recognizing the flaws and achievements of past leaders helps us navigate the present and shape a better future.
Takeaways for Aspiring Change-Makers1. Libraries are key to sparking curiosity and making meaningful connections. 2. Engaging with current events can bring history and government lessons to life. 3. Facing online extremism with critical thinking and constructive dialogue is crucial. 4. True activism requires stepping out of online discussions into real-world action. 5. Political engagement doesn't have a set formula – everyone's contribution matters. 6. Small acts of kindness can lead to significant societal change. 7. Understanding history in all its complexity is vital for informed citizenship and political engagement.
Sharon McMahon's insights remind us that rewriting history isn't about changing the past. It's about understanding our role in the present and taking action that shapes the future. Whether through education, dialogue, or philanthropy, we all have the power to make a difference. Let's start today.
- Podcast Episode Transcript Jermaine (00:01)
I am here now with the great Sharon McMahon. I'm so glad to have you on the Humanity Archive podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to the show, Sharon.
Sharon McMahon (00:12)
It's my pleasure. So happy to be here today. Thanks for inviting me.
Jermaine (00:16)
Yeah, no problem. I really appreciate you. I appreciate your content. I've been a huge fan of your work for a long time and the way that you frame your content around this kind of non nonpartisan government and forming of the public and engaging of the public in such a way where people can come together and actually have a dialogue and That really resonated with me because I kind of see myself in that right the content that I put out. I really
No matter what I'm talking about, my end goal is to always connect to the humanity of whoever it is out there. So you've kind of had this fascinating and amazing rise in your career. You have this transition where you went from teaching at one point, I think you're kind of posting family photos and inspirational quotes on your Instagram. And then you kind of have this viral success. And it turns into this huge brand as America's government teacher. When the awards for your podcast, you have this.
Sharon McMahon (00:49)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (01:14)
great philanthropy, which I want to get into later. And I just kind of want to know what was that like for you? What were the moments of self doubt or fear? Like how did you navigate from your career as a teacher to where you are now?
Sharon McMahon (01:28)
Well, thanks. Thanks for that. I appreciate that. And I just want to say that I really appreciate your content too. I mean, we met on Instagram because I, I don't even remember who found whom first, but I have appreciated your content for a long time as well. And I really love seeing what you have to post. And I regularly learn things from you and I direct people to your account all the time. And I just really love the work that you're doing. So kudos to you.
And by the way, I don't know if the general public is aware of exactly how much work goes into producing content like the type you make, but it is extremely labor intensive. People just think like, oh yeah, it's like a picture and a paragraph. The hell it is. You know what I mean? Like it is extremely labor intensive to produce quality content, which is why most people are posting about, you know, celebrity fashion.
Jermaine (01:58)
Thank you.
Sharon McMahon (02:27)
or you know just gotcha journalism. It is extremely labor-intensive so I want to tell you that I see how much work you put into your content and I want other people to know that it is extraordinarily labor-intensive. The vast majority of which is unpaid. You're creating a tremendous amount of free value for the general public and I see it and I know exactly how much work it is so I appreciate you.
Jermaine (02:28)
Absolutely.
Sharon McMahon (02:57)
that you're doing and I know I benefit from it. I'm better for it and I know others are too. So kudos to you. In terms of, yeah, oh, it's truly, I mean it sincerely, it's a lot of work. And this podcast is a lot of work. It's a lot of work to interview people and it's a lot of work to produce the narrative episodes that you produce. It's a lot of work to write a book. Like all of this is a tremendous amount of labor that the average person has no idea how much work goes into it.
Jermaine (03:04)
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, it's a labor of love though, isn't it? I mean, if I didn't love what I do, it'd be very difficult to put the hours in, behind the scenes, I think that people only see the surface, they only see what you put out, they don't see the hours. That goes into it, they don't see, as we were talking about before with my book, I wrote 400 and some odd page book in 10 months. I mean, I've got just books all around me, I've got hours put in, and I definitely...
Sharon McMahon (03:30)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (03:55)
love talking to someone like you who knows what that's like, who appreciates that, not only putting out the content, but then trying to engage and make connections with your audience, with your fans, trying to engage in true, real dialogue with people and make an impact. So, you know, that's what I'm about. It's not about the value and money for me or anything like that. It's about value and connections and a legacy of informing people and giving people wisdom and knowledge that can enrich their lives. And hopefully...
Sharon McMahon (04:08)
Mm.
Jermaine (04:23)
you know, transform the world in some way.
Sharon McMahon (04:26)
I love that. I love that. I know we've spoken before about our shared love of libraries. And I know that I would I would not be who I was today had I not had free access to the public library that was near my house had my parents not been like, yeah, go hang out at the library, please do. You know, my parents were not the we didn't have money when I was growing up. My dad was my mom stayed home and my dad was a, you know, worked in the trade.
and there were times when my parents were on public assistance and we loved to read at my house but they didn't have money to take me to Barnes and Noble and buy ten books a week but I could definitely walk to the library and check out as many as I could carry home or some when I got older I would take the bus to the bigger main public library and spend all afternoon there and come home with a backpack that I could barely you know like the bus stop with several
like, you know, almost, I basically need like a small handcart to pull behind me, you know, to like, carry all the books home, like, oh, I know, it's gonna be a slog to get up the hill to my house. And I know that the public library was really, really instrumental and transformative in your life, too. So the groundwork for I think both what we both do is free access to the public library.
Jermaine (05:32)
Hehehehe
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. I mean, how do you think that the library or what connections can you make? I mean, I would think that the curiosity of going after information, fact finding that has to have some kind of connection to those days where young Sharon was dragging that card around full of books, right? So how do you think that connects to what you do now?
Sharon McMahon (06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I love the that you brought up curiosity because that's what the library lets you have. When you go to buy books, when your money is on the line, you have to be a lot more sure of your purchase, right? You have to think I definitely want to read this. Or even if you're being, you know, even if it's wishful thinking, you think you want to aspire to be the person who would read this book. You want to be the person that has it on your shelf or the coffee table.
there is much more ability to just follow a whim.
and to go down a rabbit hole that you didn't even realize you were interested in because it's free to take the books home. And then when you go home, I did this so many times I can't even count. I would flip through the books and find the sections that interested me and I would read those sections. But I never felt the pressure to, I must read every single word of this book because I have to get the value for my money. If the book ultimately only had a few pages or a few pictures that was interesting to
Jermaine (06:58)
Yes.
Sharon McMahon (07:21)
found that to be valuable and all of that created this repository, this storehouse of knowledge that builds on each other that begins when you are young and you are you know your brain is still very malleable and you learn how to make these kinds of connections of like oh
I remember that from this other thing that I was reading. I can't tell you how many tangents I went on at the public library. It ranged from like, yeah, exactly. Ranged from like, oh, you know what? Wilderness first aid. That is, how do you, like if you get pinned under a boulder, how do you live through that? You know, like am I going to go buy a book on wilderness first aid when I'm 11? No.
Jermaine (07:51)
Yeah, that's the funnest part.
Sharon McMahon (08:11)
that was like even remotely interesting. And I remember checking out all these books on first aid. Why that was a topic for me. I don't know. I don't work in any kind of medical field. I could tell you how to apply a tourniquet though. If your arms if your arms trapped under a boulder, you know, the list of topics that I just went on random tangents of. I'm not even necessarily using all of
Jermaine (08:27)
Yeah!
Ha ha ha.
Sharon McMahon (08:41)
for inquiry and connections and being able to see like what you do being able to see how all of humanity is linked throughout time and space in these really interesting ways and uncovering those connections between people and history that ended up being one of the topics that I found the most interesting. Did you know that this person knew that person?
Jermaine (08:52)
LinkedIn Connected, yes.
Sharon McMahon (09:12)
You know, like don't you love those kinds of connections where you're like this person knew that person in history because that's not how it's often presented in history books.
Jermaine (09:18)
Yeah.
It's kind of like the real life Easter eggs, right? When you're watching them and you're kind of like looking in like, oh my God, that connection there, right? So there's so many stories like that, or things that overlap. And like you said, it's really is about finding connections. And you know, when you go in a library, it's kind of like you're a detective, you're searching, you're seeking, there's a fun to it. And it's curiosity fuel the library. It was kind of like, you know, I just turned 40, but I mean, so the.
Internet wasn't so much of a thing, it was kind of coming into play, but not like it is now. So it was almost like getting dropped into the internet except everything's organized, right? And so you could, like you said, go down those rabbit holes, you can get lost in the aisles, you could learn anything you want. And that's very inspiring. I know that's definitely influenced my work as far as, and I've thought about this and the foundation of it all is curiosity, right? It's not what you know, but what you're willing to learn. And even...
Sharon McMahon (09:57)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (10:17)
to have that humility to want to learn more, to say that I don't know as much as I think I know so I can always go seeking and finding knowledge. And I think that applies to any field, right? Whether you wanna learn about how to put a tourniquet on or whether you're trying to learn about the government and how it operates and what you can do to try to affect change in the world. And so definitely for you, I'm very interested to know again,
Sharon McMahon (10:20)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Jermaine (10:48)
you know, where did this interest in government come from? And, you know, this transition for you in terms of, you know, out of that teaching career, you know, into this more public landscape, you know, where you have all these followers and, you know, what that responsibility feels like, you know, what, you know, are your feelings of, any feelings of self doubt? Are you just super confident getting on there? Because one thing I like about your content is that you're very vulnerable, right? You're on there.
Sharon McMahon (10:50)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Jermaine (11:15)
putting on your makeup, you're just kind of kicking it with the people, right? And I think that's what really resonates with people from your content, right? They feel like they're just in the living room with you, just having a conversation with one of their friends. And I think that's how you've been able to build this very robust community of governors, as you call them. So, you know, just tell me about that transition and what that felt like for you. Was it overwhelming? Did you ever have any, you know, imposter syndrome or, you know, what has that been like?
Sharon McMahon (11:23)
Mm.
Mm.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Well, my interest in government really started when I was about 12. And again, I mentioned that my parents were not well off. And so I got a paper route. And I wanted to make my own money. And at the time, like, my local newspaper would pay a 12 year old to do that. And I made $72 a month, which is a lot still a lot of money for a 12 year old. You know, like, do you give your 12 year old a $72 a month allowance?
Jermaine (12:09)
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (12:13)
But I worked for it. You know what I mean? I got up at five o'clock in the cold Minnesota freezing winter and walked a couple miles delivering newspapers. Well, this was before phones and there's literally nothing else to do except surreptitiously read the newspaper. So I would, you know, like you couldn't let the people that you were delivering the paper to know that you had read their paper. You had to like carefully refold it and, you know, and get it ready to be put in their front door.
Jermaine (12:37)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (12:43)
So I started just reading the newspaper and that you know local events current events things like that started becoming interesting to me when I Got to be a teenager. I did a ton of babysitting and I saved my babysitting money to buy a subscription to Newsweek magazine and Again, it was just interesting to me current events became very interesting to me And we started getting Newsweek in the mail and my mom was like what the heck is Newsweek?
Why would
So I continued getting Newsweek for a long time and I you know sent in the little card changing my address when I would move to a new place in college and I remember when I finally graduated from college and got a job I was making $26,000 as a teacher
But somehow I found it in my budget to start paying for a subscription to two magazines, two periodicals that I had loved for a long time but were very expensive. So I would check them out of the library but you can only check out past issues, you can't check out the current issues. So I always coveted The Economist and Foreign Affairs or Foreign Policy magazine. Like those are those were like, oh but it's like $72. You know like it was so much money.
Jermaine (14:23)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, not cheap.
Sharon McMahon (14:36)
So when I finally graduated from college I started getting you know even more magazines delivered to my house Because I was interested in these topics and then when I started teaching I My very first teaching job where I was making $26,000 a year was with in a program for students who had chronic
truancy and delinquency issues. They were children who were involved with the criminal justice system. And most teachers would not, you know, like that's a job that you like try to get out of as quickly as possible. That ended up being a student population that I loved working with. Students who had struggled in school.
Jermaine (15:13)
Yes.
Sharon McMahon (15:25)
for whatever reason. There's a huge variety of reasons why students have trouble coming to school, have trouble with law enforcement and have trouble succeeding in school.
There's a big variety of reasons. But one thing that I found was highly effective at connecting with students who had traditionally had very poor experiences with the educational system was current events. They loved talking about current events. If you could show them a news clip or even bring up on the overhead projector a slide of the front page of the newspaper or you know I later subscribed to the newspaper and
and be like, front page of the paper is a story about Bob. Why would Bob be on the front page? And being able to connect what we were seeing today with things that had happened in the past with, you know, like why is this a story today? Well, here's why. Because in the past this thing happened and this is why it matters now.
That ended up being that and a few other things, but that is one of the ways that I found
that I could get students to connect to the material rather than it just being a boring recitation of like the colonial period was 1750. You know, like that's boring. Don't make me memorize the dates of the colonial period. I'm not interested in that. If you, if I'm a 16 year old student with law enforcement breathing down my neck to come to school, you know what I mean? Um, but
Jermaine (16:44)
Yeah.
Not at all.
Sharon McMahon (17:02)
If we can make it about something that is actually happening in the world that might impact their life, then it's a different story. So that just became sort of the foundation of my teaching career. I went on to teach in the DC area. I taught with I taught I co-taught with a special educator. I ended up working a lot with students who had who received special education services and they were integrated into a general education classroom. But.
that was that they are often students who also have poor experiences with education. They don't feel successful. They don't feel like they can get good grades. They don't feel as often. I'm not saying this is 100% true, but they often have trouble feeling as successful as their peers. But this
entrance this entry point into talking about history and government has always been very successful for me. So it turns out that adult humans are exactly the same. It turns out that adult humans are the same as adolescent humans when it comes to learning about topics that they have traditionally found boring. Go ahead.
Jermaine (18:05)
So you.
most of us don't know anything either about the government. I think I'd read a Pew Research survey. I mean, you see these surveys come out and it's like 80% of the US population doesn't, they know nothing about their governments, right? So I think that, I don't think that it's people don't wanna know about their government, but it's that they weren't taught in a way that is engaging or that was successful for them. I think, and it is very interesting to kind of see your trajectory, right?
Sharon McMahon (18:29)
Yeah.
No.
Jermaine (18:43)
You know, when you were talking about being a kid and getting these newsweeks, I'm thinking of like an 11 year old Sharon, you know, is this outlier, like, you know, other kids are playing sports or whatever they're doing. And you're kind of sitting reading about the government and then that kind of escalates. And then you're getting the economist and foreign affairs magazines as you're, you know, going into college and then you become a government teacher. And I can really connect the dots in your content and the way that you present yourself in terms of just having this.
Sharon McMahon (18:50)
Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Jermaine (19:11)
kind of profound empathy, right? Which it seems to me started very young and then kind of transitioned into you're working with these kids who a lot of people had given up on, right? And when I see you online and the way that you engage with the public, you get into some heated topics, right? And you're still empathetic with people. You're still trying to cultivate a dialogue to where, even if people are on polar opposites, right? Black and white, you know, this or that.
Sharon McMahon (19:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Jermaine (19:39)
You're trying to bring people together and get them to see that we have something. And if we can only find one thing in common, we can start there, right? And we might not agree on everything, but we can still come together and have a dialogue because that is what democracy is about and that is what America is supposed to be about. And if somebody doesn't choose these higher ideas, who will? Because there's already so many people in the echo chambers on either side who are garnering so many people.
Sharon McMahon (19:44)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (20:05)
to the extremes, but I feel like though there's more people that are within the extremes, then those louder voices would have you believe because those are the ones who get the most attention. So, I mean, how has that been for you to kind of be this voice of reason amongst the chaos? I mean, you've been doing this, especially for a while when the voices were super loud, like back in 2020, just so much extremism online, especially the kind of Twitter energy.
Sharon McMahon (20:29)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (20:35)
of things and I mean how has that been for you kind of staying grounded in your ethos, you know, which is to bring people together.
Sharon McMahon (20:39)
Mm.
You know, it is a skill that I cultivated from years in the classroom. Most good teachers would rather have students who are able to think critically, but who arrive at a different conclusion than the teacher themselves has arrived at. That is a skill that teachers value and they would much rather have you write a compelling essay with a thesis that they ultimately disagree with, but that is well proven.
regurgitating, parroting some stuff they found on Wikipedia. You know what I mean? Like that's actually that's not interesting. So in order to create that type of critical thinking in a student group, you have to have differing opinions.
You can't think critically if everybody's like, yeah, I agree. I agree with that. That's not critical thinking. In order to be able to critically think about anything, you have to consider other viewpoints. And most Americans today would say, yeah, nobody critically thinks anymore, but most people are unwilling to look in the mirror when it comes to that topic. They're very willing to surround themselves with information they already agree with, and they're too often want their children
Jermaine (21:37)
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (22:03)
information they agree with and thus the children do not learn to think critically they only learn to parrot a list of pre-prescribed thoughts and beliefs that say what the parents or the school or whatever wants them to hear. So it's a skill that I think is so important to be able to hold space for diverging viewpoints because ultimately that is more valuable to me.
Jermaine (22:04)
Mm-hmm.
guess.
Sharon McMahon (22:31)
than getting somebody to be like, yeah, Sharon, I agree with that.
I would much rather have an honest conversation where you have a different opinion than I do because guess what? I can learn something from that. Even if we disagree, I can learn from that disagreement. I'm not learning anything by you being like, yeah, that's right. Okay, great. You know what I mean? If I bring you to my way of thinking, that's fine. But ultimately I feel like I am made better. That sort of mentality of like iron sharpens iron.
Jermaine (22:35)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Sharon McMahon (23:05)
dialogue about diverging viewpoints, that's far more interesting to me intellectually than just people all echoing the same, you know, the same five talking points. So doing it online is
in some ways very similar to doing it in a classroom but it's also somewhat different in that in a classroom you have the chance to create a classroom community and a classroom culture. As the adults in the room you're in charge of what happens in the classroom. You tell the students what's acceptable and what's not. You enforce the consequences if things are getting out of hand. A classroom is very
Jermaine (23:27)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (23:51)
You are 15, sir, and I'm in charge and you are not, right? And that's actually how it's supposed to be. Somebody needs to be in charge and it should not be the 15 year olds. That is not the case with adults in the wild west of Beyonce's internet. That is not how that works. And, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And sometimes...
Jermaine (23:52)
Yes.
Mm-hmm. Need that structure.
Yeah, gunslinging opinions.
Sharon McMahon (24:16)
I do get the opportunity to really think about things from a new perspective of like, oh, you know what? I had not thought of that. And one of the reasons that I value that so much is because there are people in my community from such a huge variety of different backgrounds. We're talking about like members of Congress all the way to people who work in, you know, who are preschool teachers.
you know people who are like I'm a dentist or I am an attorney for you know Raytheon but they're just the breadth of experience of people that I would probably never have access to otherwise uh that is super interesting to me and so I absolutely love having a community that has such a wide range of people
But it also does open you up to not just criticism. I think everybody who's on the public facing on the internet knows that criticism will occur. But it opens you up to literal danger, threats. Yeah.
Jermaine (25:16)
Yeah. How do you deal with that? Because yeah, there's people that don't agree, politics, I mean, there's wars that people feel so strongly about. There's issues that are affecting people's lives in very powerful ways. And, you know, things that they say don't talk about at the holiday get together because you might end up in a fist fight with your great uncle, right? Because like these things are, I mean, these are our lives at stake. You're talking about things that affect us every day. So like how...
Sharon McMahon (25:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (25:44)
How do you deal with like the most negative, right? Because that can be hard, right? Sometimes there's times I don't even wanna deal with the comments section. I mean, I like, cause I'm never gonna retreat from because I feel like it's important for me to engage with people to a certain degree, not to where it's gonna take me out of my mission or the integrity of what I'm trying to do. But it could be easy to get lost down that rabbit hole of negativity. So have you faced that at all? And how do you deal with that?
Sharon McMahon (25:46)
Mm.
Oh yeah. Yeah, well, it's like I, you know, I like to bring this up that arguing online is not activism.
That's not what real activism is. I'm not saying no activism can exist online. I'm saying arguing in the comments is not activism. I am not gonna be 99 on my deathbed being like, dang, I wish I had argued with more strangers on the internet. That's not gonna be my life regret, right? So I try not to get into giant arguments with strangers in the comments section on the internet. But when you're talking about legitimate
Jermaine (26:31)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (26:53)
threats like last week somebody said to me when are you when is your death so your children can be left orphans and then in the they sent me a DM saying that they hope I have my throat slit
So we're not where it goes. It goes way beyond just, you know, like you're stupid and ugly. It goes way beyond that into like wishing for somebody's death or telling them that they should kill themselves. That is a that see that doesn't happen in your well-ordered classroom. You don't have 16 year olds saying that to you. Right. So there that is when it gets to be really, really challenging.
Jermaine (27:08)
Wow.
No, not face to face.
Sharon McMahon (27:38)
And sometimes you absolutely like the internet does feel vulnerable. It does because you don't know who's watching.
And you don't know, you know, like in a classroom, you do know those kids. You can get to know them. You can look up and see like, where does this person live? Who are their parents? But you, Oh, I had him last year. You can ask your friend, your teaching colleagues, do you have any ideas about Jermaine? I'm not sure what's going on with him. He hasn't been here in a while. But there are ways that you can address situations, but on the internet, you don't even know who these people are.
Jermaine (27:51)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (28:15)
And so it does feel vulnerable sometimes. And that can be very discouraging for people to do this kind of work because the vulnerability feels like it takes such a toll sometimes.
Jermaine (28:18)
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (28:35)
And also, you know, I know we've talked about this before, the hate content that is produced on these extreme ends of the political spectrum, the super far right leaning hate content that is full of conspiracy theories and absolutely wackadoodle ideas and the far left hate content that wants to police every word out of your mouth and tell you that you didn't say it right or you're not talking about X enough.
Jermaine (29:02)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (29:05)
they're going to these people who have like Instagram accounts about how to bake cookies and telling them that they need to be talking about bald eagles more or you know whatever like things that are like what are you even like this is not my content I make cookies you know what I mean like the thought policing on the far left and the conspiracy theories on the far right
Jermaine (29:15)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (29:29)
That pays. It pays so much money, Germaine. It is very discouraging how much money they can make. Like I'm talking tens of millions of dollars. I'm not even talking about like a little 1k brand deal. No, no. I'm talking about tens of millions of dollars some of the people in these spaces make. And it can be very discouraging.
Jermaine (29:33)
It does.
And they don't even believe half of them what they, you know, some of them switched from the left to the right or from the right to the left just to get into, I mean, so no, you only see what they put in front of you, right, but a lot of these people are just making money, they're churning out money to really tap into people's most basest emotions, right? And get them, I mean, yeah, that's, it's, I mean, hundreds of millions of dollars are being made versus conversations like this versus pages like yours versus.
Sharon McMahon (29:55)
Mm-hmm.
Totally. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (30:19)
And I have very strong opinions on my page about certain things. Uh, and I tend to share a more critical history because I feel that we've gotten a very monumental history of gotten the statues we've gotten the presidential libraries, but I'm still always trying to be accessible and leave room for dialogue, never shutting anybody out. Um, who's willing to have a dialogue. But I think that's, you know, that's rare when you're talking about political things or things to do with history or the connect to the present.
Sharon McMahon (30:27)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jermaine (30:49)
You know, as you said, if you're talking about cookies or something or, you know, you're kind of, you know, you talked about vulnerability and I was thinking like there's some guru out there who would be like, vulnerability is your strength, right? If you're one of those people who are speaking in generalities, you're not really going to have to so much, you know, think about that. But when you're talking about things where politics are involved, that's where, you know, things can definitely, it's a different kind of space to navigate.
Sharon McMahon (30:52)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jermaine (31:16)
You know, there's responsibility in that with making sure that you're putting out factual information. But, yeah, on the one hand, it's, you know, it'd be easier sometimes just to kind of pick this extreme side and just spew out that information. It requires really no thought. It doesn't require that critical thinking about looking in the mirror and examining of yourself and questioning your beliefs and challenging your own presuppositions and assumptions. And so,
Sharon McMahon (31:32)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (31:42)
You know, I don't find a whole lot of examples and I think that's why I resonated so much with your content. Cause there's not a ton of examples on the internet. I mean, there's a lot of writers and things that do it, but on the internet, uh, who have, you know, these followings, you know, I'm not saying that's not the norm, right? It's usually either this side or that side period. Um, I don't know if you've kind of noticed that as you've navigated the online.
Sharon McMahon (31:49)
Mm-hmm. Sure.
Yeah, totally. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's my community has become kind of unique on the internet because this viewpoint doesn't.
it doesn't pay money in the way that being on the far left or the far right pays money. And I'm not, I'm not, again, I'm not complaining. I'm not, I'm not saying that you can't earn money on, you know, in this space. I'm just saying like, nobody is writing me $20 million check, right? To be like, just say that everybody that there's a deep state and they drink the blood of
Jermaine (32:21)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (32:45)
or whatever it is. It's a unique space to be operating in and I do think that it attracts a certain type of person but you know by and large it can be very challenging because we have become accustomed to following people who validate our already held beliefs.
That is
Jermaine (33:07)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (33:37)
that makes them that creates a little bad feeling in their brain where they're like what I thought you were better than this do you know what I mean like if you ever if you ever had that experience
Jermaine (33:46)
Yeah, I've got that. Yeah, because I mean, I think people, I'm definitely more of a progressive thinker, but there have been some things that I posted that aren't, they're not in line with this kind of orthodoxy of progressive thought or anything, right? I'm like, because I'm always questioning, I'm always, so there's a little more nuance in my views other than just like, I know Jermaine's gonna say this, like this predictability in, if you're kind of leaning on this farther.
Sharon McMahon (34:03)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (34:15)
Left or right, you know platform and mines more nuanced. It's more gray You know, but I think there's been some people definitely I've seen in the comments where people were disappointed Like I can't believe you didn't say it this way or you didn't speak up for this particular thing, right? But I'm like no, I'm ever evolving person. I'm a human I'm learning I'm not gonna agree with everything that you agree with You know, hope you still follow me But you know if not that really speaks to your inability to have a dialogue and hey
Sharon McMahon (34:25)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (34:44)
I'm opening up where you don't agree, you can try to change my mind. I want to hear what you have to say, but just to cut somebody off, you know, that's the opposite of the kind of platform that I'm trying to create. You actually said something earlier that kind of stuck in my mind, right? You said that arguing on the internet often gets mistaken for activism. And that's something I really agree with. I think activism, it's about.
Sharon McMahon (34:48)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (35:11)
Tangible change it's about getting out there and making a difference in the real world. It's world. It's about organizing and mobilizing and Arguing on the internet. It's usually an echo chamber, right? It's people venting Sometimes they're learning but it lacks that direct Impact, you know getting out in the street the community meetings getting on the front line where real change happens and so I think of course online discourse has its place, but we can't confuse it with the
Sharon McMahon (35:22)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (35:41)
kind of hands-on gritty work of true activism, the sweat and the tears. And, you know, that's the real struggle. And I think, you know, something else that I wanted to talk to you about is kind of this, what I would call political hobbyism. You know, people who might donate five bucks, who, you know, get online and argue a little bit and just kind of just very softly engage. How do we get people?
Sharon McMahon (35:42)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (36:09)
Or, you know, are you thinking about this as you're trying to engage your audience? Like how do we get people to really engage in this kind of democratic experience, uh, experiment and, you know, really get into a more robust form of, of politics, you know, getting off the sidelines, not just throwing that five bucks out there and kind of, you know, sitting back and watching things from the sidelines, is that something you think about and what, what ways do you think that we can engage people in that way?
Sharon McMahon (36:18)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. I think it's important to be politically engaged. But...
I think right now the dominant narrative either is you are into politics and you're an activist and like you said you're going to the meetings and you're doing the organizing and you're going to the marches in the rallies and you're doing the voter signups and you know like all the things you're calling Congress you're doing all these all the things either you're that person or you're not.
Jermaine (37:05)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (37:10)
It's one or the other that America tends to be a very black and white country. Maybe you've noticed this, Germaine, like we, it's all or nothing. You're either Democrat or Republican. You're either, you know, you are this or that. And the rest of the world, generally speaking, sees things. Uh, and I, you know, I'm, this is broad over generalization, but there's a lot more room for nuance in other cultures. And there are good things about black and white thinking. It's decisive. It, you know, America has achieved some cool stuff.
Jermaine (37:14)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (37:40)
in part because of our culture. But I like to encourage people to think about instead of either assuming the identity of I am a political person, I am an activist, thinking like I either need to be myself or I need to be Fannie Lou Hamer.
You know what I mean? Like people think it's one or the other. Either I'm dedicating my whole life to this and I'm speaking at the conventions and I'm doing all the things, or I work in the emergency department. Either I teach preschool, or I am running for Congress. They think it's either one of those things. And there is so, yes.
Jermaine (38:01)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. And that can put way high expectations to where you don't wanna engage. Cause you're like, oh my God, I can never aspire to that. Just let me sit back and kind of kick my feet. You know, I'm never gonna be that. So yeah, so that's discouraging.
Sharon McMahon (38:30)
Right. Yes. I can't be her. Right. Right, it's discouraging if you feel like I can't dedicate my life to doing this. I actually went to college to be a surgeon. And I have important work. I approach this from the perspective of everybody has important work to do.
and we should not allow ourselves to be distracted from our important work.
And some people's important work is being in Congress. And some people's important work is being a teacher. And some people's important work is working at the Social Security Office. And some people's important work is working on the internet. We should not allow ourselves to be distracted from our important work, because all of our labor is needed and necessary to improve society. What good are we if everybody is running for Congress
surgery. That's not a society I want to live in, right? Like we need everybody's skills and everybody's important work. And there is one way that everybody can be involved. And there is not one prescribed way. I can't tell you what your specific way to be involved is, but nobody can do everything, but everyone can do something. And chances are good that you have
Jermaine (39:54)
I love that.
Sharon McMahon (39:58)
And I'm talking specifically to the listener here. Chances are very good that there is a topic that you feel especially passionately about.
that there is something that is just like kind of gnaws at you inside. Maybe it's child hunger, maybe it's education, maybe it's environmental protection, maybe you care deeply about civil discourse, maybe you care really so much about making sure that people have, you know, fair housing, access to job training, whatever it is that you feel especially passionately about.
I firmly believe that those things are given to you for a reason.
that is the topic that you are meant to have an impact on. Because we're not all FDR, right? We're not all mustering the, marshaling the resources of a vast federal government to create like, let's do this and now this and let's fight the Nazis and let's create jobs. Most of us will never ever, ever even aspire to be that person. But if we take whatever it is that we feel especially strongly about, and we
Jermaine (40:50)
Thanks for watching!
Sharon McMahon (41:07)
choose that as the thing that we try to move the needle on. Even just a little bit. That labor is needed and necessary if you care deeply about making sure that kids have breakfast in the morning.
or they're not going home over the weekend hungry. They don't go home to food insecurity. And you try to move the needle on children in your community, not having food insecurity. Nobody should lay their head on the pillow at night being like, well, I didn't do enough. That is actually incredibly important work. That child could then grow up to be somebody who impacts the world in massive, massive ways. But if we don't help them now,
Jermaine (41:39)
Absolutely.
Sharon McMahon (41:52)
be that person. So that's how I tend to think about encouraging people to engage with the world is don't be distracted from your important work and the issues that you care about were given to you for a reason. When you feel strongly about something you are inspired to work on it and don't be discouraged that your small actions don't completely
Jermaine (42:16)
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (42:22)
wipe out child hunger in a month.
many things require a significant amount of work and struggle to see progress and don't discount the idea that your contribution is not making progress. Sometimes it might take a while to see what your progress is but if we look back on history and we see the cumulative concerted struggle and effort of our ancestors we can now turn back and see like dang look at what they
But guess what? It took tens of thousands of people, decades to achieve that. We need to let go of this idea that it's like one great man or woman who's going to come save us. No, no, that is not how it works. Right? Yes, we can look back and be like, Yes.
Jermaine (42:59)
Yeah.
Absolutely.
That's how history was taught for a long time. The great man theory, this whole theory, the great man theory of history, you know, just this one guy, this one president, this one warrior who rose up from the ranks and, you know, spread the empire, you know, that, and, you know, I think people resonate with that, but it's again what we talked about, about just having such high aspirations. If you reach anything below that, you feel like you're not doing anything at all. And so, yeah, that's not a good way to...
Sharon McMahon (43:21)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (43:42)
to look at things, I don't think.
Sharon McMahon (43:44)
No, and then what it does is if we know that like, okay, well, I'm an I'm a nurse.
I'm not the next president. I'm not interested in that. It almost allows us to just sort of check out and not feel like we need to be part of the solution because we're not the great man, in air quotes, or great woman that the world's waiting for. I'm no Martin Luther King. I hate, what if somebody's like, I have such massive social anxiety I could never even introduce myself in a class. I couldn't even say two fun facts in sixth grade.
Jermaine (43:57)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (44:19)
mean so I can never be that person if we allow ourselves to always wait for somebody else to fix it then we are not contributing to the progress of humanity and we all have an important role to play
Jermaine (44:34)
and you talked about.
You talked about important work and I just kind of wanted to go back to that because I've been amazed by your philanthropy as a part of your platform and you know, you're raising millions of dollars, you're changing so many lives. You know, you talked about being a teacher. My parents are teachers and we know that is a career that is noble and intent, but it's lacking in zeros and so you're helping teachers with these teacher grants and I just want to know, is there a particular story?
Sharon McMahon (45:00)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (45:07)
that deeply moved you or maybe even brought you to tears, like, you know, in this philanthropy work that you're doing.
Sharon McMahon (45:13)
Mm, mm.
so many of them. I mean, I moved to tears regularly. And it is really vulnerable to cry on the internet because you know that there are people out there taking screenshots of your sad face and making fun of you behind your back. You know what I mean? You know that's happening. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But that's what I mean by refusing to be distracted from your important work. If I allowed, you know, myself to just spend all my time worrying about if I'm going to be a
Jermaine (45:28)
Yeah, make a meme out of you like a...
Sharon McMahon (45:44)
So there have been, there was one woman in particular, we've raised over nine million dollars in the last three years for a variety of things, there's one woman in particular who, oh thank you, thank you, one woman who who's co-worker, she had a co-worker who was in her 60s and the co-worker had cancer and had gone through cancer treatment and they worked at Starbucks.
Jermaine (45:55)
Random applause, that's a beautiful thing.
Sharon McMahon (46:11)
This woman was in her 60s working at Starbucks and as a result of her cancer treatment, she had lost most of her teeth. And so wore a mask at work even when it wasn't a requirement to do so to hide the fact that she didn't have teeth. And your insurance is probably not going to pay for that.
We could spend a whole separate podcast talking about the issues with dental coverage in the United States. It's not like it's how the how dentistry became separate from medicine is a very, very interesting topic that we don't have time for today. But chances are good. There is nobody who is able and willing to just pay for that for you. You might be able to get dentures, but they're still expensive. Right. And they may or may not work for your specific situation.
raise money to help this specific woman fix her
smile so that she felt like she could participate normally in society. She felt removed from society. She felt like she couldn't be a normal person at a workplace and also she felt like she couldn't retire. She was in her 60s working at Starbucks because she didn't have the resources to even fix her you know her own dental issues. So that's the type of thing that like the woman being able to
Jermaine (47:40)
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (47:46)
that is life-changing for somebody. It's way more than just I paid this bill which can really change somebody's life of course but
We all know how important being able to interact with another person, look in somebody's eyes, smile at them, speak normally, how important that is, that human connection. It's so important for us and we don't, I don't even think any of us unless we've been through the situation can understand what it meant to this person to be able to have that issue that nobody else was going to address
woman who nominated her co worker for help. And this, you know, this woman was such a everybody loved working with her. She was kind of this grandmotherly figure. And the Starbucks employees didn't have enough money to pay for this situation. Because it's a lot of money. But collectively, a million people do.
Jermaine (48:41)
Yeah, they don't make a lot.
Sharon McMahon (48:48)
Right? And so that is the that's the that's the beauty of doing things doing the kind of work that I do is you can give $5 to something that you then feel directly improve somebody's life and you can see the type of collective impact that together we can have. And I don't want people to just think about that monetarily, although that is important, but that collectively that's also the type of change we can make when it comes to government.
Jermaine (48:49)
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (49:19)
you know, societal progress, that your small your $5 can help this woman, but also your small amounts of activism in your community, all of our all of our efforts aggregated do make a big difference. And it's a it's a very tangible illustration of that.
Jermaine (49:36)
Absolutely.
Yeah, I
Enough, but sometimes, I mean, it speaks to your point that is enough, right? If other people collectively are doing that, that can turn into a whole lot of money that can help a whole lot of people or help a few people in a very major way. And I appreciate that about you and what you've been able to do. But I do want to switch gears just a little bit because I would be mad at myself if I let you leave here and didn't talk about at least a little bit of history because you are a fellow history lover and you have this amazing docu-series.
Sharon McMahon (50:13)
That's right.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (50:36)
on your podcast, I've listened to some of your mayhem, the 1970s, you never knew series. And you know, you got this backdrop of the Vietnam War and civil rights struggles. And you know, it's a time in American history where there's this collective cry for justice and equality and it's reaching a crescendo. And there's these societal rifts and rich activism. And I just kind of want to know for you, what is a story?
or some things you've learned about the 1970s that surprised you or shocked you or you were like, wow, I didn't know this one.
Sharon McMahon (51:08)
Mm-hmm.
There's so much, oh my gosh, I mean, maybe you experienced this when you were in high school too or college that the 70s tend to really be glossed over in history curriculum because we spend so much time talking about the Civil War in first semester and so much time talking about World War Two in second semester, you know, two worthy topics, of course, but we just don't, we kind of run out of time.
in the 60s and then like it now it's May we just we kind of run out of time to talk about the 70s which were an extremely consequential decade and one of the things I come back to all the time are the Pentagon Papers where I am just like you have got to be kidding me I the Pentagon Papers okay so
Jermaine (51:48)
Yeah.
Tell me more, because I haven't heard of this.
Sharon McMahon (52:06)
The United States was involved in Vietnam for a very long time before we even really let people know that we were involved in Vietnam, right? Our involvement in Vietnam goes back to the 1950s and we were not directly fighting a war yet. But JFK was, you know, involved in Vietnam and we were.
kind of keeping it under wraps. We were lying to people about what we were involved in Vietnam. Well, once the Vietnam War really started heating up and the tide of public opinion began to turn against involvement in Vietnam, where the draft was taking, you know, tens of thousands of young men to Vietnam to fight for a cause that many of them did not feel was a valiant one.
going to Vietnam to fight against communism when this does not represent any kind of existential threat to the United States? You know I don't think you can argue that Hitler was not an existential threat to the United States. He was. And so you know what I mean? He was never gonna stop at what he was never gonna be like well I you know I got the Netherlands that's all I needed. No. Hitler was an existential threat to the United States but it's really
Jermaine (53:18)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (53:26)
was an existential threat to the United States. So so many people, my dad included, went to Vietnam. My dad enlisted in the Marines when he was 17 years old. Okay. 17 years old, did two tours in Vietnam in the Marine Corps, which is the, you know, they're the dudes, they are the boots on the ground in Vietnam. They are the people.
Jermaine (53:28)
Absolutely.
Sharon McMahon (53:51)
you know, getting dysentery in the jungle. That's literally who they are. My dad later died of his combat related illness from Agent Orange exposure in Vietnam. So what we were asking people to do was truly
The American public was unprepared to hear. They were unprepared to hear the types of orders that these 17-year-old boys were being given. Things like take out this entire village, including the women and children, kill them all, and light the entire thing on fire.
Those are the types of orders that we were being given and in part because it was very much guerrilla warfare. The Viet Cong did not have clearly marked uniforms where it was very unlike Germany, where it was very easy to see who we're fighting. Like we're going to line up our tanks here, you line up your tanks there, we're going to send in some airplanes, we're going to shoot at each other, we're going to have some boats.
in terms of who are we fighting, who is the enemy. It really seemed like a fight against evil. That's how it seemed. And so when people came home and they had the ticker tape parades and you know like it seemed like we truly had done the job of liberators. Whereas that was not the case when it came to Vietnam. Well
To make a long story short, Germaine, the Pentagon commissioned a report of the entire US involvement in Vietnam. And they commissioned this report. Specifically, they wanted this little committee of people, and specifically this one man, to work on it.
And he did, he worked on it. It morphed into this 900 page long history of the United States involvement in Vietnam, including all of the ways that the US government had lied to the American public. All of the ways that the CIA had been involved, et cetera. Well, eventually,
Jermaine (55:56)
Wow.
Wow.
Sharon McMahon (56:14)
it became clear that the government was going to, you know, was never going to release these papers that it was meant to be. They were classified, that nobody was ever going to see the, you know, these were not going to see the light of day. And there was one man in particular who felt like I cannot let that happen. I cannot let all of this work just
waste and that man was a man named Daniel Ellsberg who then decided I am going to surreptitiously make a copy of this 900 page document documents plural
He enlisted the help of his children and went to the office building of a buddy, and they're secretly making copies of the Pentagon Papers. And his kids are helping to staple, and they're trimming off the classified designation at the top of the papers. And he contacts.
Jermaine (57:10)
No.
Sharon McMahon (57:22)
The New York Times and says, I have some things you might be interested in. And it takes The New York Times a while to vet. Is this guy serious? Is this real? It takes them a while to decide like we're actually, yeah, we're going to start running.
running a report on the Pentagon Papers. And eventually they did. They began publishing these, what were classified documents in the New York Times. And let me tell you, Richard Nixon, not happy. Richard Nixon, not happy that the New York Times is publishing what looks like negative information about the United States government. Most information was not even about Richard Nixon. You know, like he, he was not the primary decision maker.
decades leading up to Vietnam. Yes, he was the vice president for a while, but not the most of Pentagon papers actually don't even implicate him. But he nevertheless did not like that this was, you know, being published and that it was making the US government look bad. So he actually, um, again, I don't want to, I don't want to take too long telling this story, but this case he told the New York Times you need to we're going to sue you. You need to stop publishing this stuff. It went to the Supreme Court.
And this and the long story short.
Multiple dozens of newspapers get in on this as an injunction came down to say, you stop publishing these classified documents. Another newspaper would step up. Here comes the Washington Post being like, we'll take the next installment. And as these as an injunction would come down saying, you stop publishing these papers, another newspaper would step up and publish the next installment.
Jermaine (59:08)
Smile.
Sharon McMahon (59:13)
in newspapers publishing the Pentagon papers while Daniel Ellsberg in an effort to shut him up
The Nixon administration sent the CIA to break into the office of his of his psychiatrist in an effort to try to dig up dirt on him that they could try to blackmail him with of if we can get his pay. Yes, if he could get his patient records, then we could say, oh, he's being treated for depression. He's being treated for mental illness. This guy's crazy. We can try to discredit him.
Jermaine (59:35)
Yeah, Nixon was known for that.
Sharon McMahon (59:51)
this or we're going to release your you know psychiatric records. Ultimately Daniel Ellsberg finds out that when he is speaking at an event that the CIA had plans to assassinate him.
and ultimately they did not end up going through with it for a variety of reasons, but he has remained a very vocal critic and I won't tell you everything that happened when it comes to the Pentagon Papers because again it's a long story, but that to me
is an example of when people are like, well, the government has never been more corrupt. It's never been more terrible. I'm you know, I all you got to do is point to Richard Nixon and it goes far, far beyond Watergate, which was a separate issue. Then, then breaking into sending the CIA, there was a separate story altogether. So
Jermaine (1:00:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, he tried to dig up dirt on Shirley Chisholm too, I think. If I remember, I was writing about that in my book. So he's really using the government in this way as an extension of his nefarious purposes. I mean, you had the clueless with the milk lobby and, you know, all these things to cover his not only cover his own tracks, but to discredit people. Yeah. So it's like a worst case scenario of how somebody who doesn't have the best interests of the American people at heart empower.
Sharon McMahon (1:00:54)
Oh, yes. Yep. He'd
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:01:19)
and the extent that they can use that power to shut people up or even, you know, that, I mean, this guy was about to be killed, right? So, I mean, it goes very deep and disturbing when you look at, you know, how power can be corrupted and you, especially if you will, the power of, you know, the U.S. government. So that's a, yeah, that's, that's a story to raise your eyebrows for sure.
Sharon McMahon (1:01:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. It definitely is. And again, that is a super duper high, high level overview of what the Pentagon Papers was. But that's just one story of the types of things that were happening in the 1970s.
Jermaine (1:01:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, I think the one I watched this documentary the other day, and this is kind of more counterculture. I don't know if you've seen it on Netflix. It's called Wild Country. It's insane. It's a thousand to the story of this guru. His name is Osho and his followers take over this small town in Oregon. It's not just some kind of peaceful hippie community. It's like a full on cold scenario. And they start busing in homeless people to manipulate local elections so that they can kind of take over like the politics of this town.
Sharon McMahon (1:02:19)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:02:27)
And, you know, it's kind of like to me a microcosm of just the craziness of the 70s kind of dialed up to 11, right? And, you know, this group has their own armed security force, like a private army right in the middle of small town America. So the people of the town are freaking out, like, because all these people are coming in from, you know, all across the nation by the thousands. And the manipulation, you know, within this code is off the charts because this is a very charismatic leader and he's at the heart of it all.
Sharon McMahon (1:02:34)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:02:55)
And you know, there's so backdrop of free love and then it spirals into this platform bioterror attacks and wiretapping. I mean, it's all this stuff is there in the story of power and control and people seeking this utopia, you know, and just the wild, wild country is the name of the documentary. It's kind of like the wild, wild seventies, right? There's so many of these different stories that you can find. So I think kind of tapped into something with your like, let's go ahead and do this docu series on the seven. I feel like you could do like.
Sharon McMahon (1:03:02)
Yes.
Mmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:03:23)
100 episodes if you want to do it. Just gotta keep this going on forever.
Sharon McMahon (1:03:25)
Totally, totally.
or it rang a very faint bell but I was busy doing other things at the time and I was not paying careful attention to what was going on with the Nixon administration.
Jermaine (1:04:06)
Yeah, well, I could talk to you all day. I know we got to start coming to a close, but I have a question I have to ask because you talk a lot about presidents. You have a series that I watched on Andrew Jackson, which was fascinating, but I want to know for you, who is your GOAT president, your greatest of all time president?
Sharon McMahon (1:04:11)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Hmm. I mean, I here's the thing people always ask this question I feel like everyone is obligated to say Lincoln right because he achieved incredible things consequential things that Continue to matter today. And so that is I mean, there's no question that Lincoln is right up there amongst the The greatest presidents of all time, but here's something that I think that a lot of people don't think about Lincoln Is that?
when it came to
Um, you know, he definitely made some mistakes, especially when it came to native Americans. He's not a flawless human being. There's no president that we can look back and be like, flawless 10 out of 10, you know, like we're all we're we they're definitely, especially when it comes to native American issues, things that Lincoln did wrong. There were things when it came to some of his ideas about colonization of like, you know what the emancipated slaves can't just live amongst us.
Jermaine (1:05:14)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (1:05:29)
There are some ideas today that would be like, that's real problematic, buddy. Things of that nature. But of course he achieved some really, really consequential things. But one of the things that I think is interesting about him, number one, is that the Republican Party was extraordinarily progressive. We think about today the Republican Party being conservative. But if you think about progressivism being this concept of wielding the power of the federal government to empower the people of the state, and the people of the state of
Jermaine (1:05:49)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (1:05:56)
improve the lives of citizens, if that is the model of progressivism, if that's like what we think of LBJ wielding the power of the federal government, that is what the new Republican Party was doing. Imagine today any political party being like, listen, y'all owning all these guns is bad news. You can't own them anymore. We're going to take them away from you.
Jermaine (1:06:24)
Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (1:06:27)
Taking away somebody's what they viewed as private property, enslaved people, taking away enslaved people and saying you can't own this anymore and your entire manner of livelihood is now no longer going to exist. That is radical societal change. That is power that no president has wielded since.
Jermaine (1:06:32)
Mm-mm.
Sharon McMahon (1:06:53)
in an effort to improve lives of citizens. So that to me is always very interesting to think about exactly how progressive we're talking here. But one of the other things I think is interesting is during the Civil War.
We recruited a lot of mercenaries to fight for the Union. We went to Europe and we were like, Hungarians, get in here, we can use your help. Germans, Scottish, Canadians, who you got? We need assistance over here. And I think it's really interesting that Lincoln allowed for a very high degree of pluralism inside the...
Union Army.
If people were, you know, observed kosher dietary restrictions, that was acceptable. If they needed to have Saturdays off for religious observance instead of Sundays, that was acceptable. There was not this sense of everybody needs to be a Protestant Christian, you guys. Okay. That's how we roll here in the United States. Protestant Christians only. He was very tolerant of a variety.
Jermaine (1:07:59)
Mm-hmm.
Sharon McMahon (1:08:08)
of religious practices, cultural practices, and again I'm not saying he did everything right and gets A pluses on everything, but I think that's an aspect of his leadership that is overlooked today. That his respect for pluralism is something that we don't often see. I don't often see that talked about.
Jermaine (1:08:31)
Yeah, I'd have to say Lincoln too. And for me, it's because it's a study in deep contradictions, but also this idea of a life of transformation. As you said, I mean, he had the court amendment where he was almost willing to perpetuate slavery forever. You had the execution of the Dakota Sioux. You had his racist views that you could speak to. All things on his record. But for me, it's about this.
remarkable metamorphosis, right? It's moral evolution is what I look at. It leads to the emancipation of millions that strikes a chord in my heart. And then he's steering the government. I mean, come on, we're talking about, of course, the civil wars, 620,000 or so deaths. I mean, this is, what is it? The Revolutionary War, World War I, II, Korean War, like Spanish War, all combined within this war on American soil.
And like, can you imagine the stress, right? You see those pictures of Lincoln where he goes into office and he's looking like this kind of sprightly young lawyer. And then he comes out, he's looking just like, you know, he's the father of father time. And then, so even though I curate a more critical history, I always try to remember that it's not like a blunt instrument, right? It's not chemotherapy. You should destroy everything in your path, right? You can critique.
Sharon McMahon (1:09:38)
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:09:54)
linking with precision, but also recognizing the capacity for the growth, the capacity for redemption. And that is how we can also see ourselves in the story. I think that unfortunately, we've seen like this big shift from this very monumental history, the statuesque history where you can't say anything negative against people too. Now it's very, very critical to the point where people won't recognize the
Sharon McMahon (1:09:58)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:10:21)
uh, you know, the, the better parts of Lincoln, you know, the better parts of his nature. Um, yeah, the contributions that he made, right? So I'm always trying to be careful that I don't fall into that trap, uh, myself. And, you know, that's definitely, I, again, I cultivate somewhat of a critical history, but Lincoln's always kind of my example that I use of like, you know, he's a flawed human being, uh, but in some ways he was able to rise above his times. I mean, in a lot of ways he was able to rise above his times. Cause if he only went with the times, you know, he'd just.
Sharon McMahon (1:10:24)
The contributions they made. Yes. Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jermaine (1:10:51)
went along with his views that he had in the beginning, and he wouldn't have transformed over time.
Sharon McMahon (1:10:53)
Yeah. Right. He was also willing to risk incredible unpopularity. He was willing to be unpopular. And that is something. Yeah.
Jermaine (1:11:05)
assassination even. I mean, of course he got assassinated, but even before that, I don't even remember how many assassination attempts. I mean, there was a whole cabal against him or her. You know, this group in the South. Yeah.
Sharon McMahon (1:11:12)
many assassination attempts. Yes, obsessed with assassinating him.
Yes, yes, willing to be tremendously unpopular, facing incredible home life difficulties, like the death of his son, his wife has severe mental illness and is not seen in public for years and spends all her time upstairs at the White House talking to their dead son. He himself was prone to such depression. I'm sure you know this, that there were letters that he wrote to his friends being like, please
times out of the house or I'm going to use them on myself. He had tremendous mental health issues himself like the depression that he suffered from and I think that also to me makes it even of course I'm sad that his child died etc I would never wish that on anybody but it it makes his personal transformation even more noteworthy that in you know in in spite
of his incredible depression, in spite of the death of his child, in spite of his wife's serious mental health issues, in spite of his unpopularity, in spite of people constantly trying to kill him, you know, in spite, in spite, in spite, in spite. He still had the moral courage to do what he felt was the right thing and so many of us would have just taken our ball and gone home.
Jermaine (1:12:41)
Beautiful.
Absolutely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I was trying to think in terms of ending this, a quote that kind of I feel like applies to you and reminded me of this quote that says, the difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of their country for what it does and the nationalist is proud of their country no matter what it does. The first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility
Sharon McMahon (1:13:10)
Mm.
Jermaine (1:13:14)
The second, a feeling of blind arrogance. And I think that your approach to engaging people with politics, government, and the fabric of America, I find truly inspiring. I think that you're not just educating, but you're cultivating that sense of responsibility, of accountability, of understanding. And I think it's a love of America rooted in what it does and not a blind allegiance. And so...
Sharon McMahon (1:13:17)
Mm.
Jermaine (1:13:40)
I think your work then fosters a true patriotism and informed and thoughtful connection that encourages active and responsible citizens. So I appreciate your work so much. Everything that you do, it's well earned. It's well earned. Thank you. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show, Sharon. Thank you so much.
Sharon McMahon (1:13:50)
Thank you. That's very high praise. Thank you. That's very high praise coming from you. Thank you. It's my pleasure.
Jermaine (1:14:04)
All right, well, we will see you. Thank you.
Sharon McMahon (1:14:07)
Yes. Okay. Do you need?
APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | YOUTUBEIn today's fast-paced and technology-driven world, children are facing pressures unprecedented in history. Here we deep dive into the escalating anxieties plaguing our youngest generation. We connect the dots from Charles Dickens' 19th-century observations on child labor to the modern-day phenomena that see children treated as mini-adults, burdened by expectations and robbed of their innocence.
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Our journey through this landscape seeks to unravel how, despite centuries of progress, the essence of childhood vulnerability remains constant. Here’s what we cover":
The Dickensian Parallel Historical Insights: Charles Dickens famously shed light on the grim realities of child labor during the 19th century, sparking social reform. We explore how this historical lens offers perspective on today's children, who, while not in factories, face their own forms of labor through relentless academic and social pressures. * *Lost Innocence: The conversation probes the critical question: Are we stripping our children of their childhoods by imposing adult-like responsibilities and expectations on them?
Technological Ties That Bind A Double-Edged Sword: The technological revolution has transformed the way children connect with the world. While offering unprecedented access to information and social networks, it also isolates them and subjects them to constant evaluation, contributing to rising levels of anxiety and depression. * The Culture of Comparison:* The impact of social media and digital platforms in fostering a culture of comparison and constant scrutiny is scrutinized, underlining its role in the anxiety epidemic among children.
Society's Role in Child Anxiety Metaphorical Consumption: The discussion delves into the metaphorical aspect of society 'devouring' its youth, placing intolerable pressures on them, leading to an increase in anxiety and stress. * Anxiety vs. Fear:* A clear distinction is drawn between anxiety and fear, highlighting how the former, fueled by uncertainty and "what-ifs," places an unbearable load on children, affecting their mental and emotional well-being.
Pathways to a Healthier Childhood Prioritizing Mental Health: The urgent need to prioritize children's mental and emotional health is emphasized, suggesting practical steps to alleviate the pressures they face. * Envisioning a Less Anxious Future:* The conversation concludes with a call to action, urging society, parents, educators, and policymakers to work towards creating an environment where children can grow and learn free from the excessive stresses that lead to anxiety and depression.
This isn’t just a reflection on the increasing burdens of childhood anxiety but a clarion call to recognize and address the myriad factors contributing to it. By drawing parallels with the past and examining the impact of modern society and technology, we underscore the importance of safeguarding our children's mental health and ensuring they have the freedom and support to enjoy their childhood, free from the shadows of anxiety and depression.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
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Saturn Devouring his Son (1819-23) by Goya, www.visual-arts-cork.com, n.d
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Podcast Episode Transcript Let me take you back to the year 1842. Charles Dickens, the great English writer, visited a coal mine known as a dark satanic mill. He was horrified by what he saw children. Some as young as six were working in unimaginable conditions, their faces blackened by coal, their eyes sullen and sunken into their faces, their spirits crushed by the weight of adult responsibilities.
Dickens was so moved by this experience that he went on to write some of the most socially impactful literature of his time, shedding light on the plight of children in the industrial age. His stories weren't just stories. They were a call to action, a plea for societal change. Now you might be wondering what about Dickens observations from nearly two centuries ago have anything to do with our lives today? Well, stick with me here because I found myself in a modern day mind of sorts.
And this whole show came about because I was in the grocery store the other day passing by other shoppers. And sometimes it's in these random moments that my brain starts going deep, you know, like a toy aisle, revealing the immense pressures we're putting on our kids. And so I'm standing there, right? And these toys, the Hot Wheels, the Mr. Potato heads, the Simon Says is there like time capsules. They take me back to a time when life was just about Saturday morning cartoons and
deciding which action figure was gonna save the day. That aisle was like a little sanctuary of innocence in the middle of all this adult chaos, you know? And I felt at home for a second. But then I look over and I see fidget toys and stress balls and these weird squishy unicorn things. And I'm thinking, what is going on here? Why are we making stress relief toys for kids? It's like we've got this epidemic of stress and anxiety, not just for adults, but also for our kids too.
I mean, depression and anxiety are like the top mental health issues globally. And what's that about? Why are we passing this culture of stress down to the next generation? So just as Dickens observed children burdened by adult responsibilities and minds, our children today are burdened as well, but just in a different way. They're not in coal mines, but they're navigating a culture obsessed with student achievement, still obsessed with work. There are laws being passed right now to loosen.
laws to put kids back to work in several states in America. They're being bombarded with electronic stimulus and expectations, leaving them tired and feeling very inadequate and feeling very alone. Now think about it, we've got this technological revolution that's been a double -edged sword. On the one hand, we're more connected than ever. On the other, we're isolating ourselves, even our kids in this digital realm. It's like we've fast -tracked them into a world of
Constant evaluation, likes and dislikes, swipes left and right, and we wonder why they're stressed. And I thought about all this and it calls me to question, are we treating our kids too much like adults still? Are we robbing them of the innocence and freedom that should define childhood? Are we setting them up for a lifetime of stress and anxiety by pushing them into this adult -sized world way too soon? And most importantly, if we continue down this path, what's the future going to look like? A generation of burnt out, stressed out adults.
never really got to be kids. And let me give you an example of what it looks like for society to devour its youth. Francisco de Goya, a man who lived through the Spanish Inquisition, the Peninsular War and all the political turmoil that came with it was like this rock star of the Spanish art scene from the late 18th to the early 19th century. But let's not forget this guy went dark, really dark with his so -called
black paintings is what they're called when you look at them historically. And that's how people write about them because they were really dark. And one of those paintings was of Saturn devouring his son. This is stuff of nightmares. Now imagine this, you walk into a dimly lit room and there it is Saturn, his eyes are bulging, consumed by a kind of madness that's almost palpable. He's clutching his child who's already half eaten.
And you can almost hear the crotch feel the wetness of the blood. It's like a scene from a horror movie, but it's not. It's a painting on a wall. You can look it up and you're standing there asking yourself what kind of mind comes up with this, but let's dig deeper because this isn't just gore for the sake of gore. This is rooted in mythology. It's rooted in history. Saturn or Cronus in Greek mythology was told one of his children would overthrow him. So what does he do? He eats him.
The story is old as time, a tale of a parent so consumed by his own fears and insecurities that he literally devours his offspring. Now hold on a minute, this is an archetypal story. It's a cautionary tale warning us about the destructive power of consuming fear and the lengths people will go to maintain control. It's not just about a God eating his kid. It's about the destructive tendencies that we all have within us, especially.
when it comes to wielding power over the vulnerable. So when we look at this painting, we're not just seeing a gruesome act, we're seeing a mirror reflecting our own society's willingness to sacrifice the young for the sake of preserving the status quo. We're not talking literal flesh eating here, but aren't we metaphorically devouring our youth's mental and emotional well -being? The Goya painting, right? It's...
Like a gut punch to the soul. It's not just a visceral haunting image. It's a metaphor for how we as a society are willing to consume our young, not with teeth, but with expectations and pressures and anxieties. It's like we're Saturn and our own kids are the ones who are getting devoured. And I think it's important to distinguish the difference between anxiety and fear. Fear is that primal guttural response to immediate danger. I've done a lot of work on Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., a man whose home was bombed and is beaten.
threatened face real tangible threats every day. So an evolutionary response to these real threats would be fear. And we can come up with countless examples. The King example just came to mind from a previous show that I did, but now we can trust anxiety. It's like the insidious cousin of fear. It's not about the lion in the grass. It's about the possibility of a lion in every patch of grass, everywhere, forever. Anxiety is about the unknown, the what ifs, the...
catastrophes that haven't happened but could. It's like we're living in a world that's a minefield of potential disasters and we're handing our kids the map without teaching them how to navigate it. So there's another quote by a Corey Tinboom. She was a Dutch watchmaker who lived through the horrors of World War II and she once said, quote, worrying is carrying tomorrow's load with today's strength, carrying two days at once. That one really hit me. It's like we're burdening.
Our kids with the worries of a world they're not equipped to handle. And let's not forget the statistics for youths ages 10 to 14 suicide as a second leading cause of death. So let's get real here. Many of you have kids and if you don't, we were all once kids. And so how many kids out there or how many of you have felt as kids and then carry that into your adulthood, the cycle of tear, of anxiety, of stress, the answer is millions. And that's not just a number.
These are individual lives and people just like you and I, each one grappling with their own set of fears and anxieties on the daily. And so now we make it to the modern world. And so there are now millions of kids within this generation who grew up who know nothing but technology. They didn't grow up without technology like I did. And so that's a double edged sword. Technology is filling the world with more opportunities and advancements, but on the other hand, it's a pressure cooker.
of expectations, of judgments. And so now you have the statistics showing that nearly one in three of all adolescents between the ages of 13 and 18 experiencing an anxiety disorder, kids struggling with depression at alarming rate, falling prey to a society that values success over happiness, achievement over contentment. And so what do we do? I think we've got to love our children.
enough to let them be children. We've got to be the wind at their backs, not the hand at their throats. We can be the generation that says enough is enough and starts to turn the tide. We can model compassion beginning today and show the youth that there are ways to cope and strive for a better world with less calls for anxiety. And we can let this be the generation that changes the narrative, that redraws the painting, that changes history, that slays the dragon of anxiety and lets our children breathe.
Step into the chilling tale of Salem's witch trials, a story of fear, betrayal, and the deadly cost of ignorance. Unearth the hidden motives and dark secrets that turned a village into a hunting ground for witches. This episode will grip your soul, leaving you to ponder the unsettling echoes of Salem in today's world.
Want to support the show? Become a ‘Humanity Archiver’ by joining us over on Patreon. Visit patreon.com/thehumanityarchive to sign up. Your support is our driving force.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
- Christobel Hastings, “The True Story of Tituba, the Slave at the Center of the Salem Witch Trials,” VICE, 10/5/2018
- Stacy Schiff, “Unraveling the Many Mysteries of Tituba, the Star Witness of the Salem Witch Trials,” Smithsonian Magazine, 11/2015
- Erin Blakemore, “The Mysterious Enslaved Woman Who Sparked Salem’s Witch Hunt, History, 6/27/2023
- Chadwick Hanson, “The Metamorphosis of Tituba, or Why American Intellectuals Can’t Tell an Indian Witch from a Negro.” The New England Quarterly, 1974
- Carla Gardina Pestana, “Salem’s problem: not witches but torture,” HuffPost, 1/30/217
- Malcolm Gaskill, “Witchcraft: A Very Short Introduction,” Oxford University Press, 2010
- Jenny Macbain, The Salem Witch Trials, “A Primary Source History of the Witchcraft Trials in Salem, Massachusetts,” Rosen Publishing, 2003
- Sara Jobe, “Sarah Good,” University of Virginia, 2001
- Ruth La Ferla, “ Like Magic Witchcraft Charms Teenagers,” New York Times, 2/13/2000
- Matthew Hopkins, The Discovery of Witches, Project Gutenberg, 1647
- Emilie Le Beau Lucchesi, “This Hallucinogenic Fungus Might Be Behind the Salem Witch Trials,” Discover Magazine, 10/12/2021
- Rebecca Falconer, “Judge rejects Tulsa Race Massacre reparations lawsuit,” Axios, 7/10/2023
- Mary Beth Norton, “In the Devils Snare,” Penguin Random House, 2003
- Carol F. Karlsen, “The Devil in the Shape of a Woman: Witchcraft in Colonial New England,” W.W. Norton & Company, 1998
- Marilynne K. Roach, “Six Women of Salem: The Untold Story of the Accused and Their Accusers in the Salem Witch Trials,” Da Capo Press, 2013
In this episode, we dive deep into the hauntingly beautiful landscape of Dante's Inferno, unearthing its relevance to our lives today. Far from just a medieval tour of Hell, this is an exploration of the choices we make, the paths we take, and the moral compass that guides us. We tackle the tough questions: What happens when good people are stuck in bad situations? What does it mean to be truly damned? And most crucially, can we find redemption?
Tune in, get uncomfortable, and let's explore the darkest corners of the human soul together.
Want to support the show? Become a ‘Humanity Archiver’ by joining us over on Patreon. Visit patreon.com/thehumanityarchive to sign up. Your support is our driving force.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
- Wal-Mart worker killed in Black Friday shopping stampede, thegaurdian.com, 11/29/2018
In the heart of the Pacific, a warrior danced with destiny to unify a fragmented realm. King Kamehameha the Great, a figure as complex and commanding as the Hawaiian islands he would come to rule. From his daring conquests to his political brilliance, this episode unravels the myth and the man, set against a backdrop of gods, warriors, colonialism, and the unstoppable forces of nature.
Want to support the show? Become a ‘Humanity Archiver’ by joining us over on Patreon. Visit patreon.com/thehumanityarchive to sign up. Your support is our driving force.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
- The Napoleon of the Pacific by Herbert Henry Gowen (1919)
- An Account of the Polynesian Race: Its Origins and Migrations, and the Ancient History of the Hawaiian People to the Times of Kamehameha I, by Abraham Fornander and John G. Stokes (1878)
- History of the Hawaiian Islands by James Jackson Jarves (1843)
- Volcano Watch — 1790 was a bad year at Kīlauea, usgs.gov, 08/12/2021
- Ruling Chiefs of Hawaiʻi Revised Edition by Samuel Kamakau (1961)
- The historic town of Lahaina, and its legacy, is in ashes, nytimes.com, 08/12/2023
- How to kill a god: The myth of Captain Cook shows how the heroes of empire will fall, thegaurdian.com, 01/18/2022
- Transforming Hawai‘i: Balancing Coercion and Consent in Eighteenth-Century Kānaka Maoli Statecraft, jstor.org, (2018)
- A Brief History Of Sexual Identity In Hawaii, buzzfeed.com, 11/12/2013
In 'The Woke Panic,' we unravel a growing crisis in education where essential aspects of Black history are being suppressed and erased.
In this episode, we reveal the obscured human cost of the Atomic Age, with a specific lens on Hispanic displacement and the lingering shadows of nuclear fallout. Through the enigmatic figure of Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project, we will probe the intricate dance between scientific progress and the profound ethical toll it exacts on humanity.
In this episode, we reveal the obscured human cost of the Atomic Age, with a specific lens on Hispanic displacement and the lingering shadows of nuclear fallout. Through the enigmatic figure of Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project, we will probe the intricate dance between scientific progress and the profound ethical toll it exacts on humanity.
Amidst the rising indifference of a warming planet, July 2023 gave the world a stark warning. The highest temperatures in recorded history.
Join us as we journey through the fiercely eloquent and starkly candid prose of 'The Fire Next Time', in the newest episode of our podcast. We'll delve into James Baldwin's incisive exploration of race relations, as he shines a light on the painful realities and enduring spirit of the Black experience in America.
Join us as we journey through the fiercely eloquent and starkly candid prose of 'The Fire Next Time', in the newest episode of our podcast. We'll delve into James Baldwin's incisive exploration of race relations, as he shines a light on the painful realities and enduring spirit of the Black experience in America.
The "Slave Trail of Tears" was a brutal chapter in American history that has been largely forgotten, swept under the rug of mainstream historical discourse. For years, Black people were marched in chains for over a thousand miles from the Chesapeake to Louisiana, or herded onto ships and sailed from near Washington, DC, around Florida, and up the Mississippi River to be sold in New Orleans.
The journey, which became known as the "Slave Trail of Tears," forced over a million enslaved Africans and their descendants to endure unimaginable suffering and pain.
Despite its significance, this part of history has been largely forgotten, relegated to a footnote in our history books.
In this podcast episode, we'll shed light on this dark and forgotten trail of tears, exploring what it meant to be a slave in America, and why it's important to confront this painful legacy head-on.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
- They were once America’s cruelest, richest slave traders. Why does no one know their names?
- Retracing Slavery’s Trail of Tears
The women's suffrage movement is often boiled down to a simplistic tale of courageous women gathering in Seneca Falls in 1848 to demand the right to vote, which was ultimately secured for all women in 1920. However, the truth is far more intricate and convoluted. While the Seneca Falls convention was indeed a watershed moment, women had been voting in certain states long before 1920. Additionally, many Black women were still disenfranchised even after the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment, with some not truly gaining the right to vote until the passage of the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
To truly understand the history of women's fight for the vote in America, one must go beyond the surface-level narrative and delve deeper into the complexities of the struggle. In this podcast, we will go on a captivating two-part journey through this history. Through meticulous research and nuanced analysis, I will reveal how the suffrage movement was part of a broader, thousand-year-long battle against male domination. In part one, I will explore the roots of patriarchy and the beginnings of the suffrage movement in America, shedding light on the long-forgotten figures who played critical roles in the fight for women's rights.
Don't miss this unique opportunity to gain a deeper understanding of one of the most important movements in American history. You will gain a fresh perspective on the suffrage movement and women's struggles in their fight for the vote. Join me as I peel back the layers of history and reveal the truth about the fight for women's suffrage in America.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
Welcome back to the second part of our podcast series on the complex history of women's fight for the vote in America, which goes beyond the commonly-known narrative of white women's suffrage. In part one, we explored how the suffrage movement was part of a thousand-year-long struggle against patriarchy and how women of color were often excluded from the mainstream suffrage movement.
In this episode, we will continue to shed light on the intersectional struggles of women of color in the fight for suffrage. We will examine how racism and overlying patriarchy impacted the tactics and strategies of suffragists of color, such as Sojourner Truth, Ida B. Wells, and Mary Ann Shadd Cary, who fought for suffrage alongside their white counterparts but often faced discrimination and marginalization.
Through meticulous research and nuanced analysis, we will explore the unique challenges faced by women of color in the suffrage movement and how they paved the way for future civil rights struggles. We will also examine the ways in which women of color continued to fight for their right to vote even after the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment.
Don't miss this opportunity to gain a more comprehensive understanding of the history of women's suffrage in America, one that takes into account the struggles and contributions of women of color. Join us as we continue to peel back the layers of history and uncover the truth about the complex fight for suffrage.
RESEARCH & RESOURCES:
In this podcast episode, Jermaine Fowler takes listeners on a thought-provoking and emotional journey through his book, The Humanity Archive: Recovering the Soul of Black History from a Whitewashed American Myth. As he reads the prologue, Fowler unveils the hidden gems of Black history that have been buried by a whitewashed narrative, inviting us to reconsider the stories we think we know. Get ready to be captivated by Fowler's storytelling and challenged to look beyond the surface of American history to recover the soul of Black history.
Listen to the Harriet Tubman Podcast:Celebrate Black History Makers
Explore our online courses In the podcast episode, we explore:
- Jermaine Fowler's book, The Humanity Archive, and its significance in uncovering the hidden gems of Black History.
- Fowler's captivating reading of the prologue, setting the tone for the journey through the pages of his book.
- The impact of a whitewashed American myth on the telling of Black history and the need to reconsider the stories we think we know.
- The emotional journey listeners will experience as they are challenged to look beyond the surface of American history and recover the soul of Black History.
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Fowler's powerful storytelling and the thought-provoking questions it raises about how we understand and remember history.
MEET YOUR HOST:
Jermaine FowlerJermaine Fowler is a history author and self-proclaimed intellectual adventurer. Challenging dominant perspectives, Fowler goes outside the textbooks to find stories that are recognizably human.
In the midst of the unspeakable horror of American chattel slavery, figures like Harriet Tubman emerged. Her story is one of a woman who refused to be broken by the cruelty of her circumstances, who looked beyond her own suffering and fought for freedom with fierce determination. Her legacy is a reminder of the strength and resilience of the human spirit in the face of oppression.
Listen to the Harriet Tubman Podcast:Celebrate Black History Makers
Explore our online courses In the podcast episode, we explore:
- Harriet Tubman Myth vs. Reality
- How many enslaved people did Harriet Tubman free.
- Harriet Tubman’s early life.
- Tubman’s role as a Union spy and leader of a military expedition.
- The realities of the Underground Railroad.
- The nature of American chattel slavery.
Harriet Tubman Research & Reading List* Who Lived This History? The Combahee Raid * 1913: Auburn says good-bye to Harriet Tubman at her emotional funeral * Renowned as a Black liberator, Harriet Tubman was also a brilliant spy * Harriet Tubman Home for Aged & Indigent Negroes
MEET YOUR HOST:
Jermaine FowlerJermaine Fowler is a history author and self-proclaimed intellectual adventurer. Challenging dominant perspectives, Fowler goes outside the textbooks to find stories that are recognizably human.
Essential truths about Native American history have been hidden and concealed. Why don't we learn more about America before the arrival of Europeans? Why do textbooks end Indigenous history in 1890? How have we failed to connect the struggles of the past to the present? Here we explore a few questions and stories in honor of Native American Heritage Month.
In the early to late 1980s, crack cocaine became public enemy #1 in America. But what is the history of the war on drugs, and how did the nation succumb to the wildfires of constant drug epidemics?
It's been over two decades since the September 11th, 2001 attacks. As the terrible events of that day fade into the distant past, the painful memories of survivors live on to remind us of heroism, loss, and mourning.
In recent years social media platforms have come under fire for spreading fake news and the phrase has become ubiquitous since 2016. But, beyond internet disinformation and online trolls, when did this all begin? In this episode, we explore the history.
The American bison once roamed the prairie in numbers up to 60 million, but when the U.S governement wanted to force Native Americans onto reservations to make way for white settlement, they slaughtered the animal to near extinction forcing starvation on the Plains tribes.
Seventy-nine years after America declared its independence, in 1855, Frederick Douglass blasted the nation for its hypocrisy as a slaveholding nation. In this episode, we reflect on his speech, and question, how far have we really moved toward freedom for everyone?
Black history is human history. In this recorded lecture, I cut through the historical amnesia and hollow Black History Month celebrations to reimagine the past in ways that can sustain us and move us forward.
How do we honor the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King jr.? Did you know that his holiday faced almost 15 years of rigid opposition? In this episode, Jermaine looks beyond the acclaimed I have a dream speech to explore what King stood for. And how his message is still painfully relevant today.
In the course of human history, the scourge of slavery has haunted societies across the globe. In part one of this twelve-part series, we explore the beginnings of slavery and how it has affected people everywhere.
In the course of human history, the scourge of slavery has haunted societies across the globe. In part one of this twelve-part series, we explore the beginnings of slavery and how it has affected people everywhere.
Following the attack on Pearl Harbor, Japanese Americans were forced to abandon their homes and live in prison camps. This story follows the lives, struggles, relocation, and incarceration of some 120,000 Japanese-American citizens and resident aliens in these concentration camps.
Juneteenth is an annual holiday celebrating the end of slavery in the United States. Commemorating June 19, 1865, the day enslaved Black people in Galveston, Texas, finally learned they were free — some two and a half years after President Abraham Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation.
In the midst of economic inequality and racial unrest, a young man emerges as the fiery leader of the Illinois Black Panther Party. Pushing for radical change and uniting working people for his revolutionary cause.
In the midst of economic inequality and racial unrest, a young man emerges as the fiery leader of the Illinois Black Panther Party. Pushing for radical change and uniting working people for his revolutionary cause.
Ignored in Western history, seventeenth-century African queen Njinga was one of the most extraordinary rulers of the past. In an era dominated by men, she shattered gender roles through her political skill and military agility. After her rule was threatened in 1626 by the Portuguese, she adapted to the brutal transatlantic slave trade and waged endless war against the colonizers.
Is “Women's History Month,” only meant to highlight and celebrate their greatest achievements? Or is there room to reckon with a history filled with the world’s oldest form of oppression: sexism? Here we take a critical look at the history of women, told by women, about their experiences in the past.
“Black History Month” is a time to celebrate the achievements and narratives of people of African descent. But is it enough if those narratives aren't honored and appreciated year-round. Here we take a fascinating look at the history of Black history and how we can use this month to improve our humanity.
In this episode, we explore the little-known but profoundly moving story of the Great Migration. It is the story of those black southerners who relocated to the North and West— they moved by the millions, all to escape crushing poverty and racially motivated persecution.
In every generation, citizens must decide what to do if their country is on a course they deem immoral and unjust. In the mid 19th century, John Brown was faced with this choice. How would he challenge the institution of slavery? Some did nothing, others politically agitated, and many tried moral persuasion. John Brown went to war.
In every generation, citizens must decide what to do if their country is on a course they deem immoral and unjust. In the mid 19th century, John Brown was faced with this choice. How would he challenge the institution of slavery? Some did nothing, others politically agitated, and many tried moral persuasion. John Brown went to war.
The police force was created to enforce the law, maintain social order, and act as a force for good. At least, that is the dominant narrative. But this version of history paints a different story—one where we must reckon with deep corruption, vicious racism, and scathing abuses of power.