State of Customer Storytelling: Recent Episodes
Testimonial Hero
State of Customer Storytelling is a podcast on all things customer advocacy and customer marketing. Join us as we explore how today's B2B marketing leaders drive more revenue faster with high-impact customer stories.
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, DailyPay Director of Client Advocacy Maria Braune shares how to truly listen to your customers and get the best testimonials possible. Hear why relationship-building is all about listening, how to navigate the stakeholders to customer success, and get your customers ready to talk for you. You’ll also learn how customer advocacy helps with brand identity and positioning, what questions to ask your customers, and why a story has to be an honest story to be a great story. To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to TestimonialHero.com
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Chief Outsiders Partner and CMO Jeff Loeb shares how to gather customer insights and share them with the rest of your team. Hear the best ways to capture customer insights, interview your customers, and repurpose the content inside and outside your company. You’ll also learn how the role of the analyst is changing, why video testimonials remain the most powerful, and why you should always use the customer as the North Star in your decision-making. To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to TestimonialHero.com
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Airtable Customer Marketing Programs lead Valeria Gomez shares how to show love to your customers the way you want them to show love to your company. Hear how to build relationships, be curious, tailor your advocacy program to each customer, and differentiate. You’ll also learn why people don’t relate to brands just for the logo, the power of stories of transformation, Valeria’s 3 Golden Rules for customer advocacy programs, and the differences between different types of customer content. To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to TestimonialHero.com
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Enable Us Chief Marketing Officer Cece Lee and Chief Customer Officer Lynn Pietryga share how to set a strategy for your customer content program. Hear how to make sure your customer content is aligned with your value proposition, why video is the most powerful form of content, and how webinars and other longform pieces of content can be chopped up into smaller, shareable bits for social media. You’ll also learn why there’s no need to boil the ocean, how to measure your marketing content, get to “Yes” efficiently, and how to maintain a close relationship between marketing and customer success. To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to Testimonialhero.com
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, the Founder of grwth.co, Mosheh Poltorak, joins to talk about what is needed when starting a customer marketing program.
Customer marketing is not a one-size-fits-all thing. As Mosheh points out, testimonials and customer videos can be used in every part of the marketing funnel. He talks about what marketers need to consider when starting their customer marketing programs, like what you plan to use customer stories for and whether you want a customer story from each group of your customer base.
By doing these things, you will make it easier for the sales team to identify the best customers to ask for a story from. And if you are a person who hates to ask customers for favors, Mosheh recommends making customer marketing part of the onboarding process, so they are aware from the beginning.
Join us for this episode to hear all that and more.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Mike Jeffs, Customer Marketing Director at Mavenlink (which is now part of Kantata), talks about cross-functional customer marketing and case deflection.
Mike explains that information gathered from customer marketing benefits everyone in a company. As such, the customer marketing and customer support teams can do a lot to add value to the initiatives of other departments, like sending out NPS surveys. By getting other departments involved in customer advocacy interactions, companies can produce better products and services that the customer wants.
Mike also details how he worked to build a search engine to answer all customer questions as quickly as possible. Doing this meant his customers didn’t need to wait for an answer and could find it quickly and easily directly from the company, building trust in the process. Mike emphasizes that trust and speed are the keys to creating lasting customer relationships.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Ari Hoffman, Global Director of Customer Advocacy at Crowdvocate, talks about the art of making friends for a living.
Not originally from a marketing background, Ari offers a fresh perspective on customer advocacy as he shares how he gets his customers to be enthusiastic about telling their stories. Ari is all about building relationships with customers and warns against making customer marketing feel too transactional.
Ari divulges his best practices for customer advocacy, the biggest of which is doing something for your customer first to show that you are on their side and are willing to do for them what you want them to do for you. And when it comes down to getting stories from customers, he emphasizes the importance of video. Video can easily be turned into podcasts, reviews, and so on, but it can’t be done the other way around.
This is an insightful conversation that shouldn’t be missed.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, the Head of Marketing at GetAccept, Tara Pawlak, breaks down what she thinks is wrong with the generally-accepted definition of customer marketing.
Tara takes issue with the definition of customer marketing as essentially having customers do marketing for a company. She finds a lot of approaches to customer marketing to be more about the business and less about the customer and she thinks that’s wrong. As she points out, companies only stay in business because of their customers, so they should always be put first, even in marketing.
Tara’s approach to customer marketing goes against the grain and she details how she built a customer marketing program from the ground up at GetAccept. She emphasizes the importance of listening to customer feedback, good and bad, and making changes for each customer to improve their experience before asking them for their stories.
You create a much more enthusiastic and supportive customer marketing program by going above and beyond for your customers and getting to know them more personally.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Emma Miller-Crimm, Head of Customer Marketing at Snapdocs, breaks down the process of how she built a customer marketing strategy from the ground up. Originally, she used traditional channel marketing but then she saw the potential in customer marketing and changed her whole strategy.
Emma’s approach to customer marketing is incredibly thorough. She carries out research on the entire industry as well as the individual customers. This enables her to deliver the most personalized experience possible to every customer. She puts effort into creating reviews for her clients so that all they need to do is approve and post them. By doing this she makes the customer experience effortless.
Emma also goes above and beyond by making sure the sales team is armed with plenty of ideas and gifts that suit each customer. She created her own gold standard for customer marketing at Snapdocs. She makes sure that everyone involved has access to all the necessary information and resources needed to deliver the best and easiest experience possible to the customers.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, Scott Grimes, Founder, and Andru Creighton, Head of Sales at Orca sit down to talk about the benefits of having customer advocacy software.
Scott and Andru share Orca’s origin story and tell us how they were able to build a whole business around customer advocacy. They go into detail about their software and share ways customer advocacy software can streamline the process and track relevant data.
Scott and Andru also divulge their own customer advocacy philosophies and strategies, including how customer marketing helps sales in the long run. They also take special care to emphasize the importance of doing your homework as a customer advocate because if you don’t, you can’t build a successful customer marketing program for your company.
They delve into the importance of knowing your customers. Knowing them is key, not only for giving them incentives in exchange for stories but also for being able to recognize if they are beginning to feel burnt out. Knowing your customers keeps them happy.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the Customer Storytelling podcast, Lifecycle Marketing Manager at Permutive, Robbert van der Pluijm, sits down to talk about the best practices for interacting with customers and getting great stories from them.
Robbert emphasizes the importance of thought leadership when it comes to sharing a business’s message. He details the importance of customer stories and what he and his team do to get the best customer stories possible.
Robbert and his team keep customers involved and informed through customer advisory boards and a global customer newsletter. Both are tools to help gather customers in person, make them feel special, get customer story videos, and keep them informed of any changes in the company or its products. Robbert also explains how to handle customers that are “frenemies” and avoid stepping on any toes.
Join us for this episode to hear all that and more.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to testimonialhero.com.
In this episode of the Customer Storytelling podcast, Leslie Barrett, Director of Customer Marketing and Advocacy at Sendoso, chats with us about why customer stories matter for businesses and gives us her best tips for getting great customer stories.
Leslie discusses the many methods she uses not only to get great customer stories but also to motivate customers to want to send in their stories. Gone are the days when a simple anonymous online review was enough to entice customers. Leslie explores why this is and what businesses need to do now in order to attract people.
As a customer advocate at Sendoso, Leslie needs to be there for customers from a wide variety of industries, some with more regulations on gifts than others. As a result, she has a whole arsenal of tricks up her sleeve to get the most out of customer stories. She shares the most successful ones in this episode as part of her three pillars of customer advocacy. In addition, Leslie goes beyond how to just get customer stories as she dives into the best formats for them in today’s market.
Join us for this episode to hear all that and more.
To learn more about Testimonial Hero and the importance of customer storytelling, go to https://www.testimonialhero.com/.
Our guest today is Gabi Contreras, Customer Marketing Manager at Observe.AI.
Observe.AI is an Intelligent Workforce Platform that transforms contact centers by embedding AI into 100% of customer conversations, optimizing agent performance, and automating repeatable processes that drive revenue and retention.
Gabi and I talk about building great relationships with your customers and the one thing keeping many of us from making more sales. We also talk about customer exchange sessions, how to build value quickly, repackaging existing content, and arming your sales team with tools to get more sales faster.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Tips for getting quick wins when starting your customer advocacy program
- Tools that make your sales team’s job much easier
- How to create win-win advocate scenarios for you and your customers
- How to quickly overcome common sales roadblocks
Links & Resources
- Trustpilot
- Capterra
- G2
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Gabi Contreras’ Links
- Observe.AI’s website
- Gabi’s LinkedIn page
Today on the show we’re talking with Evan Jacobs, Head of Customer Marketing at Chainalysis.
Prior to working at Chainalysis he was the Director of Customer Marketing at Catchpoint, the Senior Manager of Global Customer Advocacy at Akamai Technologies, and the Senior Manager of Customer Marketing & Advocacy at Rapid7. Evan has a lot of experience in the customer marketing and customer advocacy space.
Evan shares tips on partnering with your customer success team and being a bridge between marketing and customer success. We talk about capturing customer stories in traditionally challenging industries, the power of video, creating atomized, snackable content, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- The one thing your competitors can’t copy
- Three things successful customer marketers do
- How to capture customer stories in challenging industries
- Why you need different mediums for sharing customer stories
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Evan Jacobs’ Links
- Evan’s LinkedIn page
- Chainalysis’ website
Our guest on Today’s show is Scott K. Wilder, Global head of Customer Engagement and Community at HubSpot.
Scott advises early stage companies on customer advocacy and community, and has over 15 years of experience in building programs, platforms, and products from scratch.
In today’s episode Scott and I talk about the idea of customer-led growth, and why humanizing a brand is so powerful. We also talk about co-designing your advocacy program with your customers, how to get started with advocacy—particularly with smaller companies—and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Three things you need to understand about your customer
- Scott’s holistic approach to effective advocate marketing
- Customer advocacy tips for early-stage companies
- Why co-designing an advocacy program with your customer is so useful
Links & Resources
- Shawn Callahan: Putting Stories to Work: Mastering Business Storytelling
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Scott K. Wilder’s Links
- HubSpot
- Scott’s LinkedIn page
- Email Scott
Today on the show we have a fantastic guest. Virginia Bryant is Director of Customer Marketing at GitHub.
Virginia and I talk about turning your marketing assets into content across multiple formats, and how to deliver the most value through that content. We talk about the importance of video as a marketing tool and its powerful ability to resonate emotionally with your customers.
We also talk about the advantages of building a customer media company in your business. Virginia shares her strategies on setting and achieving your goals, how to align your marketing strategy around those goals, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to start creating great customer stories
- Principles for getting customers to participate in your stories
- Tips for using your customer stories across different formats and mediums
- Current trends and Virginia’s predictions for customer marketing
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Virginia Bryant’s Links
- GitHub
- The GitHub ReadME Project and Podcast
- Virginia’s LinkedIn page
Today I’m speaking with Adam New-Waterson, a Fractional Executive at HYE Partners.
Adam and I talk about the tradeoffs between short-form and long-form content, and why long-form content is still important. We discuss the best time to capture customer content, and how to use that content to expand into new markets.
We also talk about marketing as an art and a science. How your customers can sell your solutions for you, and why you should include your content throughout the buyer’s journey. All that, and more, on today’s episode.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to get authentic, trustworthy customer stories that sell
- A powerful technique for convincing prospective buyers
- How to captivate an audience with a short attention span
- Tips for navigating contract and legal issues surrounding customer stories
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Adam New-Waterson’s Links
- Adam ‘s LinkedIn page
My guest today is Emily Amos. She is the Founder at Uplift Content. Uplift Content is a boutique B2B SaaS content creation studio. Uplift Content has a track record of success with high-growth companies like Okta, LeanData, ON24, and many others.
Uplift Content uses the voice of the customer to close bigger deals faster with done-for-you case studies. They also support many B2B companies with eBooks, white papers, and a robust selection of other content.
On today’s show we talk about why you should break up your customer stories into different pieces of micro content. We talk about the buyer’s journey and the nuances of customer storytelling throughout their journey. We also discuss interview tips and trends, why first impressions matter, and why quality and authenticity aren’t mutually exclusive.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why customer videos make purchasing decisions easy for buyers
- Emily’s proven strategies for interviewing your customers
- How to get more sales by mapping out the buyer’s journey
- How to consistently have great first impressions with your customers
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Emily Amos’ Links
- Uplift Content’s website
- Uplift Content’s LinkedIn page
- Emily’s LinkedIn page
In this episode I talk with Jeff Gabel, Customer Advocacy Lead at ServiceNow.
ServiceNow is one of the fastest‑growing cloud enterprise software companies in the world, with steady double‑digit annual growth. ServiceNow has 6,900 customers who rely on the Now Platform®—an intelligent, intuitive cloud platform—for their digital transformation.
Jeff and I talk about the focus on human stories and why they are more important than ever. We talk about understanding the different personas in your advocacy program, and letting customers find out what drives them. Jeff tells us how to make reference calls a two-way exchange of value, and why being cross-functional with your sales and marketing teams leads to a better understanding of their roles in the process.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How Jeff builds trust with customers
- Jeff’s nuanced approach to getting the best customer stories
- Tips for getting the most out of reference calls
- Where to start on your customer advocacy journey
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Testimonial Hero on Twitter
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Jeff Gabel’s Links
- Follow Jeff on Twitter
- ServiceNow
- Find Jeff on LinkedIn
With me today on the show is James Lustenader, Senior Customer Advocacy Manager at Planview.
James specializes in SaaS marketing, multimedia communications, competitive positioning strategy, content creation and design, database management, client/customer relations, and more.
I talk with James about how micro-content video testimonials are revolutionizing traditional sales funnels. James shares his thoughts on the persuasion power of customer videos, how to capture great customer testimonials in a virtual setting, what metrics to look at to measure your strategies’ effectiveness, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to capture authentic customer videos
- Why your company needs a multi-site online review strategy
- Best practices in preparing for video interviews
- James’ top Salesforce dashboard metrics
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
James Lustenader’s Links
- James’ LinkedIn page
- Planview’s website
My guest on today’s show is Jephtah Abu, Community Manager at Meritas. Jephtah is a community consultant based in Lagos, Nigeria.
Jephtah is also a public speaker, and has over 5 years of experience in building inclusive & diverse online communities ranging from B2B brands, tech startups and SaaS companies.
On today’s show we talk about the concept of minimum viable community and being intentional about your community and its goals. Jephtah shares his engagement strategies, the distinction between audience and community, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why starting a community is easier and less expensive than you think
- What a bi-directional community is, and why it’s important to have
- How to convert your audience into customers
- Tips for choosing the right community platform for you
Links & Resources
- Mighty Networks
- Slack
- Zendesk
- Discord
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Jephtah Abu’s Links
- Jephtah Abu’s LinkedIn page
- Follow Jephtah on Twitter
Alex Dunn is the Director of Demand Generation at Levelset. Levelset helps contractors and suppliers get payment under control, facilitating smooth payments and successful projects.
Before working at Levelset, Alex worked for Matter Communications, Access Fixtures, Applied Interactive, and Founded Skyscope, which he later sold. Alex holds a master’s degree in business from Clark University.
Today on the show Alex shares his insights on the power of customer videos in marketing. We talk about the impact of customer reviews on company culture and morale, and how videos can create “wow” moments internally in your company. Alex also shares some of his top book recommendations, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why video is the unparalleled medium for telling a story
- Where to start if you've never used customer videos
- Why customers often understand your product’s benefits better than you
- Alex’s tips for curating customer-generated content
Links & Resources
- Procore
- Adam Grant: Give and Take
- Chip & Dan Heath: The Power of Moments
- Chip & Dan Heath: Made to Stick
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Alex’s Links
- Alex’s LinkedIn page
- Levelset
- Demand Curve Slack community
- Email Alex
Today, we have a shorter solo episode with myself, your host, Sam Shepler.
I’ve been working in the customer advocacy field for about six years. I’m the founder of Testimonial Hero, which is the sponsor of this podcast. Testimonial Hero makes it easy for B2B marketing leaders to create highest quality customer testimonial videos, and other customer videos.
For this solo episode, I'll answer some of the common questions I ask our guests on the show. It will be a shorter episode where we get straight to the point about why customer stories are so effective in B2B sales and marketing, and how you can make great customer videos.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why customer stories matter in B2B marketing
- How customer storytelling has evolved, and the future of customer videos
- How to identify the best customers for creating video testimonials
- The key components of a successful customer story marketing strategy
Links & Resources
- Previous episodes
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Becky Holloway is the VP of Marketing at Malbek. Malbek provides end-to-end contract management with out-of-the-box integration to popular business applications, like Salesforce, Workday, Slack, and Office 365.
Becky has worked with numerous organizations and start-ups, helping to shape and develop their marketing departments into robust, demand-generating machines that drive revenue growth.
On today’s episode, Becky shares her insights and expertise on B2B sales and marketing. We talk about the role of storytelling in sales, and why creating emotional connections are an important part of your marketing strategy. We also talk about integrating customer testimonials into your sales funnel, the success Becky has seen after using customer videos in her marketing, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to make customer stories relatable to your prospects
- The role of employee videos in your marketing strategy
- How to tease out the best details from your customers for your videos
Links & Resources
- Matt Patel
- Gartner
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Becky Holloway’s Links
- Becky Holloway
- Malbek
Ty Magnin is the Director of Marketing Content and Web at UiPath. UiPath is the fastest growing enterprise software company of all time. UiPath streamlines processes through automation, making your business more efficient, effective, and as a result, more profitable.
Before UiPath, Ty helped start and scale Appcues, a SaaS for product-led growth teams, on a GTM strategy fueled by 95% organic inbound content. Ty was also the first marketer at WorkMarket, where he helped the team scale from $250k to $8M in ARR.
I talk with Ty about the power of social proof and peer influence in customers’ buying decisions. We talk about why video is such a unique and powerful tool for building trust with buyers. Ty shares his insights on the role of customer marketing in the buyer’s journey, how to keep people’s attention with customer marketing, how to kick off your marketing program, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why video testimonials rate highest on the “trust index”
- How to optimize your website for sharing customer videos
- The key components of a great customer story
- When you should “retire” a customer testimonial piece
Links & Resources
- UiPath
- WorkMarket
- Robert B. Cialdini: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, Revised Edition
- G2
- Trustpilot
- TrustRadius
- Salesforce
- UiPath’s Forward IVevent
- Jeff Ernst, CEO of SlapFive
- The State of Customer Storytelling, episode 004: Jeff Ernst - The Last Competitive Advantage for B2B Firms
- Crowdvocate
- Orcaforce.co
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Ty Magnin’s Links
- Follow Ty on Twitter
- Ty’s website
My guest today is none other than David Coates. David is the Director of Customer Marketing at Forter. Previously, he was the Director of Customer Marketing at Iron Mountain.
David believes understanding and engaging with customers, and improving their experience, is ultimately what drives business. He’s passionate about exploring ways to spur collaboration and understand the customer’s perspective, and adding more value by capturing insights and building relationships.
On today’s show, David shares his wisdom for creating an effective customer marketing strategy. We talk about what customer advocacy is all about, and why it matters. We also talk about the principles for having great relationships with your customers, how to create and market great customer stories, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to share your customer videos once you’ve created them
- Three ways to understand your customers and hone your marketing strategy
- Advice for getting customers’ permission to share their stories
Links & Resources
- Iron Mountain
- Gartner
- G2
- HubSpot
- Marketo
- Salesforce
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
David Coates’ Links
- David’s LinkedIn
- Forter
- Contact David: David.Coates@Forter.com
Patricia Bautista is the Senior Customer Marketing Manager at Gong. Gong helps your business analyze and optimize your customer interactions. Gong helps you and your teams gain valuable insights to close more deals and increase your company’s revenue.
Before joining Gong, Patricia worked in customer marketing at Genesys, and Automattic. She believes in engaging customers and enticing prospective customers through insightful, relevant storytelling.
Patricia and I talk about why customer testimonials are more important than ever in today’s marketing strategies. We talk about why customer storytelling has been a part of the marketing dynamic for millennia, and how to find and produce great customer videos. We also talk about the future of customer stories, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- One of the most powerful components of customer advocacy
- Can customer storytelling make running your business easier?
- How to set up your customer storytelling strategy
- Use this time saving technique to create the best customer testimonials
Links & Resources
- Follow Gong on Twitter
- Visit Gong’s website
- Gong’s Linkedin page
- Gong CMO, Udi Ledergor
- Genesys
- Automattic
- TechValidate
- SurveyMonkey
- Momentive
- Capterra
- TrustRadius
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Patricia Bautista’s Links
- Visit Patricia’s website
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Patricia:
We’re in the early days of customer advocacy. The concept is part of human nature. Customer advocacy is all about people sharing advice and what they like, and other people being influenced by it.
It matters because most people rely on other people for feedback, especially when they’re still figuring things out.
00:00:25 Sam:
Alrighty folks. Welcome to another fantastic episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast. I’m Sam Shepler, and my guest today is Patricia Bautista, Senior Customer Marketing Manager at none other than a company I’m sure you’ve heard of, Gong.
Her mission is to engage existing customers and also entice prospective customers through insightful, relevant storytelling. One of Patricia’s core beliefs is that customer communication should be a two-way street, and as a customer marketer, it’s essential to implement scalable, efficient marketing tools that make this possible.
Previously she worked in customer marketing at Genesis, as well as Automatic. Patricia, welcome to the show.
00:01:19 Patricia:
Thank you Sam, for having me.
00:01:21 Sam:
It’s my pleasure. Just to kick things off, let’s talk a little bit about customer advocacy. In many ways, we’re still in the early days of customer advocacy, but it’s also evolving very quickly, and you’ve been in the space for quite some time now. In your opinion, what is customer advocacy all about, and why does it matter?
00:01:44 Patricia:
Well, Sam, while you can say we’re in the early days of customer advocacy, I think the concept is simply part of human nature. Customer advocacy is all about people sharing advice and what they like, and other people being influenced by it. It matters because most people rely on other people for feedback, especially when they’re still figuring things out.
I’m sure since the Dawn of civilization, folks have been walking into bazaars and marketplaces and have asked a friendly face, who sells the best chickens, meat, or magic carpets, and they get directed to someone whose business they appreciate—a customer reference or referral, if you will.
In modern times, we simply have an extended variety of channels in which customer advocacy can present itself. Much of word of mouth marketing manifests itself online through someone’s company website, third-party review sites, analyst reports, social channels, and a whole lot more.
We try to influence and track these interactions with solutions like Influitive, Reference Edge, and Advocate Ambassador, but the fundamentals of customer advocacy are familiar to anyone who has ever consumed anything.
So, in my opinion, customer advocacy is not new. It’s simply who we are as human beings; social creatures who share knowledge and influence each other’s transactions.
00:03:07 Sam:
I love that. That’s such a good example with the timeless marketplace analogy. It’s almost like, back in those days, we also might look and say like, “Oh, which, stall has the longest line? Which is the most popular?” Now we’re looking at who has the best examples on their customers page or on their reviews page that are companies that look like our company that we resonate with.
So, that’s such a good example and a good metaphor. We sort of hit on it a little bit, but where do customers stories and customer storytelling fit in the advocacy umbrella?
00:03:51 Patricia:
So how does it fit under the customer advocacy umbrella? I would say that customer stories are at the very heart of customer advocacy. You know, storytelling is powerful. It expresses a journey person. Encounters challenge decides to find a solution goes to their transformation and they resolve it hopefully in a post.
Outcome, right. this is the core that threads itself through customer advocacy. I mean, at Gong, our customer stories. by what we call our raving fans is really at the heart of our business, not just in customer marketing. I mean, customer stories help make our product better. customer stories convince people to get recruited by us, customer stories.
Don’t just fit under the umbrella of customer advocacy. It’s essential to everything. But to answer your question more practically. In the tech world and our world of the internet, the stories, people paint of come out in the form of customer webinars, reviews, lard programs,
Customer surveys, stories are in most customer marketing programs or customer advocacy programs, really because these stories touch different parts of the life cycle influence different parts of the life cycle and, are drawn from different parts of the side.
00:05:10 Sam:
I love that you brought up two examples, making the product better and actual we, that, you know, helping with the recruiting. Are really powerful, but you know, maybe not the obvious things that we think about when, you know, a lot of customer stories, you know, the, the obvious use case is social proof, right.
And customer evidence for, you know, sales enablement and marketing purposes. But tell us more about that. Tell me more about that. The, how have you guys also, you know, unlocked value around product and then of course,
00:05:41 Patricia:
Yeah, of course. Anytime you capture a customer story, let’s say in a two minute testimonial video, right? The reality behind it is that you spend maybe 45 minutes, an hour, 30 minutes talking to the customer. And as you do these interviews, A lot of information comes out that we actually can share back to our product teams to help influence what kind of product they build, or, let’s say the recruiting example, you know, happy customers and them sharing the stories, make it a more compelling company to join because if you know, a company is thriving as successful, you’re more likely to join that because it’s an easier product to sell as well.
Right. So that, that makes marketing easier. It makes recruiting easier. You know, being part of the product and engineering team easier. I mean, it infiltrates everything. for example, if a customer, or if a company has a lot of good stories or has been known to please their customers so that they raise their hands for these customer stories, then you know, that even makes support easier because you know, they, there are good feelings towards the company and, you know, you’re seeing more as a partner than, as just a solution provider.
00:07:00 Sam:
Yeah, it’s so true. And I know, you know, for us, and I’ve heard similar things, there’s just like this swell of pride internally when you, you know, the whole team and particularly, you know, departments that might not always interact with the customers, like, you know, engineering or whatnot.
Watches a customer story. And then, you know, especially with video, right? Like your example, cause there’s just so much emotion in video and, hearing directly from the customer or that, that is like the impact and like this person’s changed their life and their career and their career trajectory.
Thanks to our solution. It’s just such a, so much pride and so great to see. So, that’s such a good point, shifting to like, talk about like the strategy. So like if I’m a, marketing leader, you know, and I want to do more with customer storytelling. I think we could all agree that, it starts, everything starts with, with a sound strategy.
You know, in your opinion, how, how should, you know, marketing leaders think about, you know, setting. that advocacy and that customer stories, strategy, you know, how do you think about that? How do you kind of go about that? And, when it comes to, you know, setting that, that sound strategy that can be the foundation for success.
00:08:14 Patricia:
Yeah. So if you want to, do more customer advocacy as a marketing leader, always, always fall back into your primary business needs. who’s your audience for these stories? These acts of advocacy. what do we want them to do? how do we all want to transform? Prospects current way of thinking to, you know, more positive outcomes, right. even before you ask customers a single question, first, ask yourself, what is my goal here in, you know, creating an advocacy program, creating new stories, right? Is it to introduce a new product? Is it so, so I can create relatable content to a new persona or market. Am I just building the foundation? So any story of a happy customer is good enough for me?
Or like what kind of ROI or metrics should I share? If any, so going back to your purpose can help you outline your strategy and the programmatic stuff happens later, depending on your resources and can help you like decide your next. For example, when I first joined Gong, I was the very first customer marketer in the coal company.
And with customer stories that had been created early on were really very old. So the way I looked at it is that I had to fulfill the main responsibilities or main priorities of the business. You know, let’s say. And that merited like a full focus on creating follow substantial case studies or customer success stories as I like to call them. however, some folks wanted, you know, ABC not just X, Y, Z, right? So it was a different level of priority for me, still important, but not as much. And so the solution there was to boost up our review sites to help fill those gaps in our customer stories. So basically, Hey, we don’t have a case study for that.
But take a look at these five G2 reviews that can help address your prospect’s objections or to address your need. So again, to wrap it up, like figure out what your business needs are, then ruthlessly prioritize projects that fulfill these needs. But again, the programmatic stuff happens later. Once you have this foundation and communicate, communicate to the audience, which is your internal audience, what these priorities are.
And then keep on evolving these prioritizations, but create workarounds as needed.
00:10:36 Sam:
That yeah. That alignment with the priorities, such a simple, but you know, sometimes not easy thing to do it, but you’re, that makes so much sense. So you mentioned the internal audience as well, which I think is a really good point. Cause like, You know, sometimes maybe depending on the situation, you know, priorities change, right.
At the executive level. So how do you think about that, especially for maybe like more, you know, when you were, you know, earlier in your career, how did you kind of navigate that? Did you have to be more proactive? Actually, you know, figure out what those priorities were like up to the, up to the day. I guess I’m just curious. How did you do that? And any tips that? you have for, for other folks who I think, especially, you know, earlier in your career, you may not be naturally as privy to like the shifting constantly shifting strategic priorities.
00:11:29 Patricia:
Yeah. Yeah. So my suggestion here is really to find your allies. Like when I first started my customer marketing career, I was part of a global company that had field marketing managers in different continents. Right. so they knew what they wanted and as the person who was in corporate, I was able to listen to them and, decide on my key projects based on that.
Right. So again, you don’t necessarily need to go for the top dog. of course, you know, during, during all hands calls, everyone should know what the company’s vision and mission are, what the company’s priorities are for. a year or a quarter. Right. But if you don’t have that direct feedback from leadership, go to the people on the ground who know what they want and who need their problem solved and just develop good relationships with them.
You don’t always have to go straight to the leader. Of course Gong being a startup, and me being the first customer marketer at the company, I had easy access to leadership and opinions in that sense, but, in larger organizations you have to just adapt, with the internal resources you have.
00:12:40 Sam:
Got it. That makes, that makes a ton of sense. And, I know one thing that you were talking in the pre show about, you know, how. the role of surveys and sort of, kick-starting a lot of, the data that maybe leads to, you know, who to get testimonials from who to get reviews from. Tell us about that. Like, how do you, how do surveys in just the mechanism of surveying the customers? How do you think about that and how do you you know, how does that fit into this, your customer stories strategy?
00:13:12 Patricia:
Yeah. I mean, customer surveys are absolutely wonderful. here at Gong, we use at tech validate, which is owned by survey monkey now known as Momentive, by the way, they’re a customer of ours. But anyway, we use that to aggregate customer data, to get customer quotes and to scale that up and because of the technology to.
There’s like a stamp of approval by the, the company to show that this is legitimate. We’re not just making these up, but, this really allows us to come up with data that we can insert in. Let’s say PMM slides in company decks, you know, by sending these customer surveys, we’re able to kind of scale up, the type of testimonials we we have and, a really good thing about the tool as well.
TechValidate is that at the end of the survey? there’s a tack a question you can tack on, which says, would you be open to becoming a reference for. Our organization. And that could be for media, our speaking engagements or reference calls or customer stories. Right. So even though you’re collecting data with a main, goal of a survey, you’re also able to gauge interest in other advocacy activities with customer service. Also, you know, this is a survey tool. there are other interesting ways that you can weave in customer marketing programs that actually have some type of survey, for example, what we recently launched is something called the golden gauntlet. It’s our second year of running it, but a nomination form for an award can be a survey to get stories, for example, or, you know, technically when you fill up a review site question that is also serving what your customer is happy about or disappointed about.
And that’s also data that you can use to eventually approach people for extensive stories or speaking engagements or other advocacy, active.
00:15:10 Sam:
That’s I love that. And that was the next question I was going to ask is sort of like any other tips on like identifying which customers to, to actually, you know, feature. Right. And, and so it sounds like, the, you know, of course the surveys, if they raise their hands, mining your, your third-party review sites, for, for people who have been, you know, had a great experience.
What other tips have you learned around, actually that, that identification process. Cause I think that can be where people, especially, at larger stages where they have more customers and
00:15:45 Patricia:
Yeah.
00:15:46 Sam:
That can be where they get stuck. Right. They, they may know the strategic priority and they, they may have the goal, but then like, great.
Like how do I, actually figure out which customers to add.
00:15:57 Patricia:
Yeah, actually, you touched on it a little bit, you know, I’m several tips, but again, want to, re-emphasize what you just said, always ground the customers that you pick for success stories based on your business interests, or rather your business priorities and needs. Well, this person’s story, the useful for us, what kind of narrative will they present us?
And what problem will be solved by capturing this person’s story? Right. So, you know, again, first tip is really to make sure that you’re aligned to your business needs. Secondly, we want to pick someone that is related. to your desired audience, and this can really show itself in different ways. You know, you can prioritize customers for example, with relevant logos, because people like what they trust and sometimes they just trust recognizable.
Or alternatively, they need to have good ROI or impressive metrics. When a prospect hears a good metric of improvement, they naturally ask themselves like, what if I came back to my company with this result, it’s appealing. Right. And last. Pick a persona that resonates with your desired audience. it allows people, you know, the person consuming the content to see themselves in the person they’re listening to the person who did your success story, but really a third tip is really to have a good awareness of your own internal resources to help you identify a good candidate.
Know, what’s in your back pocket. I break this down into several things. First of which is like internal relationships. I touched on this a little bit earlier, but for example, our customer marketing team is quite close to our customer success team, our CS team and our sales team focused on growth.
And. You know, given a business priority and a need for a case study, I use the expertise of our CSMs and reps to help find happy customers. And not only that, like charismatic or enthusiastic individuals, because, you know, as a company grows, you don’t always have a pulse on who’s like, you know, very engaging to deal with.
But the rep or the CSM might know, you know, who do they find pleasure talking to? Right. in talking to like this person, right? So first of all, work in your internal relationships, make sure allies in different areas of the business next is look at your existing programs. I mean, aside from customer stories, there are other programs and customer marketing that can float up customer advocates.
We have a revenue champions program at golf. we have a reference program at Gong, but like I mentioned earlier, you know, you can also use other programs like customer surveys, customer. communities to kind of help source, folks for your customer stories. Lastly, I would say, take a look at your tech stack.
You know, you have a tool belt, of different technologies. In any sort of company. And what I tend to do is I look at our customer health scores on gain site and look at dashboards and size sense to get a picture of what is going on in a customer account. I look at NPS scores, cause we have an NPS score integration into our slack channels.
So I know who loves the third knots and you know, other reporting system. And lastly, I have to say it, but, this is why it’s also awesome to work at Gong because we drink our own champagne. I’m able to go into Gong and see how engaged the customer is. I’m able to listen to business reviews within Gong and see like email, the last city who’s engaged.
And I studied up also on who seems active and willing and a true raving fans. So yeah. use your relationships, use your existing programs, use your tech stack.
00:19:57 Sam:
That’s that’s great. It’s, definitely, it’s really all of, all of the above, right? that, that makes a ton of sense. So, so now that, I’ve identified the customers that I want to feature. What about getting that agreement? You know, getting them in like, you know, getting them to participate. What have you learned about, how to ask them? So basically yes.
00:20:20 Patricia:
Yeah. So for customer buy-in, I make sure to approach people who love us already, and hopefully people would influence, people have been known to be champions of our solution in the past. but you know, again, like take a look at NPS scores, listen to those business reviews, kind of get the gauge of whether they love you. you know, a lot of times these champions, these champions in your customer base are willing to fight the good fight to make the story happen. It helps to appeal to how the story helps them also appeal to their self-interest. for example, with Gong success stories, having case studies or videos puts the leader and their exciting vision into the spotlight, right?
It shows their personal success, the accomplishments of. Career goals, their team’s goals. For example, if they were able to reduce their team’s ramp time, you know, resulting in X amount of dollars saved for the company, this is something they should be proud of. And we really want to emphasize that this story puts them in the pedestal.
It’s less of like, oh, talk about Gong. It’s more. What are you proud of as an individual? And we want to really make sure that they’re proud of that and willing to kind of share back to their company because it makes them look. But, you know, going back to the practicality of it, even before starting the process, we try to get permission, from the legal or comms teams before, you know, even taking next steps.
I mean, last thing we want to do is put in a ton of effort of work and tons of work and find out that. Can’t get published. I mean, that’s happened to me before in previous organizations and it doesn’t feel good, but, in general, like sometimes you have to pull out the big guns. If he wants support, investigate the relationships of your senior leadership team, with key players in the customer’s leadership team, they can be very influential. another thing is to perhaps get it in the contract, once the customer signs up as, to be a business partner, or if a prospect moves into becoming a full-time customer, a lot of times negotiations take place. So sometimes it’s a good time to weave in reference ability as part of, the contract.
So there are many different ways you can kind of examine it and, take advantage of, what’s already in place.
00:22:47 Sam:
It’s really good tips there. one that I don’t hear a lot is that, that leadership team relationship, I think that is something that a lot of people. Forget that that’s a, that’s a great, you know, kind of card to play. And that, that is, that is powerful. As you said, it’s sometimes surprisingly powerful and people like to do help out people that they are friends with or have helped them out.
So, yeah, that is, that’s such a good point.
00:23:12 Patricia:
Yeah. going back to that and we had this like great story of, like, I thought a success story had been shut down. You know, we got the, no go further from their legal team, late in the game because, you know, natural flows of the business, but then our CRO reached out to their, you know, co-founder or something.
And then the co-founder was like, Hey, can we get this done? We love this company. And then boom, like the doors were opened and we were able to get the success story out the gate, even though we thought that it had died on the vine, right?
00:23:45 Sam:
That’s awesome. Yeah, it’s, there’s always, you know, there’s always a way when you can reach to the co-founder or the executive level there always might just be a way to revive it and that’s, that’s such a good reminder. you mentioned legal and any other best practices, because I think that’s another thing that is a challenge for everyone, right.
Is like getting the approval. yeah. Can you tell, tell us more about that and like, I think it’s particularly around like what you, you all have learned. ‘cause I, I think that it can be like a blessing and a curse to like ask in advance in sometimes. Right. Cause I think there’s, there’s the old adage it’s like, sometimes it’s better to ask for forgiveness than permission, but you know, obviously like that can backfire just as easily.
Right. So like, how have you found that the sort of pre-approvals can work. Even, especially with companies, you know, medium and larger companies who the default answer is basically from the legal team at least is like, no, no, you know what I mean? That’s like they’re going to kind of start there.
00:24:50 Patricia:
So I’m going to challenge things a little bit and ask customer marketers to reframe their way of thinking around it. You know, I would like to say that you should treat the pursuit of a case study. Like you’re a sales person trying to close a deal. You know, this is your opportunity to like multithread or speak to power, trying to get multiple people to vouch for your cause.
You know, instead of just having one. Champion in the company. What if there are other people that love you as much as, you know, your main contact, you know, have your base of allies within the customer organization, or maybe these folks can loop in someone with influence so they can get this story approved through their own org.
Another thing is like what I mentioned earlier, negotiate. You know, again, some of our most amazing customer success stories were actually negotiated early on. you know, let’s say pricing, concessions or negotiations were happening during a renewal or a new contract. Try to make sure it’s in your sales process to weave in referenceability.
Or at least the possibility of referenceability in the future. mean, it’s not ideal because of course you want them to pay full price, but if it’s happening, if you know that there’s a lot of like a negotiation going on, try to take advantage of it as a customer marketer and get it in early on. again, they may not do the case study with you just yet, but it might be valuable eight months after the contract side.
Right? Think ahead. And as I mentioned before, and like use your connections to help influence the outcome. Again, sometimes it all takes as a person with power in the customer organization to help influence the legal team and to make them more pleased with you. I would say if I had one other suggestion, it would be to be flexible.
You know, if you have a really great case study and suddenly the legal teams. Ma, you know, that you can go back to them and say, Hey, what makes you feel uncomfortable about this? Is it a matter of changing the tote so that the challenge doesn’t seem so challenging? Is it a matter of removing the stack?
You know, it still sucks to remove your important metric yet if the logo is good enough, it’s worth it. Right. So be flexible, make sure that, you’re in there assigned. You want to make them feel comfortable. Bend over backwards. If you want something approved.
00:27:16 Sam:
A couple of things I want to drill down into there, just the treating the pursuit of a case study like a salesperson. And like, it’s like a, a deal that you need to close. Such a key point in, in, you know, I actually come from, well, I’m the founder and CEO, I’ve done a lot of sales. So I guess I could kind of come from a sales background.
It’s like, when you, when you get one, no, it doesn’t mean you, you abandoned the deal, you know, it’s you figure out, you know, who and really you’re mapping all the different stakeholders. So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s such a key point. And I totally agree with you about you know, if possible, get it, negotiate it into the, into the contract.
I’ve actually noticed there’s that is interestingly sort of like divisive point in the, sort of in the customer marketing community, because I think it’s sort of misunderstood and, my take on it is, cause I I’ve heard some people say like don’t. Make it contractual, because like, it’s not about like holding your customer’s feet to the fire, but I, my thing is like, well, it’s really more just preempting the conversation and it’s like, it’s obviously pending satisfaction.
Like, no one’s going to hold them accountable. Like, to it, there’s a case where like for whatever reason, like they weren’t thrilled. It’s like just, unfortunately they got a discount and you’re not going to collect on that case study. If you do, they’re happy, it just preempts the conversation.
Is that the way you sorta look at it? Because I completely agree, but I’ve talked about that and I’ve gotten some pushback on that before.
00:28:40 Patricia:
Yeah. I mean, it’s just good to have it in the paperwork. It doesn’t mean you’re going to bully them into doing it. It’s just like, for example, let’s say they want a discount because you’re getting more seats, right. You’re not going to be like right after the contract is signed. You’re going to be like, give me a case study.
Right. First you have to roll it out to people, right? This is just creating, long-term relationships. And when the legal team. Surfaces after a case study has been agreed to, then you can say like, Hey, this is what we committed to. Again, it’s no pressure. And you have to make sure that it’s, it’s emphasize that this is just pending customer satisfaction.
00:29:24 Sam:
Yeah. That’s, that’s a great point. So it’s, it’s a, it’s a bit more nuanced than like, you know, then sometimes it’s made out to be and, yeah, great point. I want to talk about the different formats of. You know of customer stories, right? I, in particular, the big three, you know, which I think are, you know, written case studies, third-party reviews and then, you know, customer video in, in various forms and length that we can loop, we can kind of lump customer videos into one category. yeah. Patricia, how do you think about those different kind of mediums of customer storytelling?
00:29:59 Patricia:
Yeah. So you were talking about case studies, review sites and, customer videos or testimonial videos, right? Well, I mean, I love them all. I think they’re what makes being a customer marketers. So exciting. I mean, who doesn’t want to listen to happy customers talk about how much they love your company, right.
It’s, it’s energizing, right? I believe it’s the bread and butter of advocacy programs, right? Again, in like 2020, I would say it’s like, that was a huge focus for us at Gong, especially since I was the only customer marketer. Then I orchestrated campaigns that brought in. 1,500 plus reviews across G2 Capterra trust radius to strengthen Gong’s competitive advantage.
You know, this, let us turning the number one software product and G2. And I was able to like produce 33, videos and written customer success story. Including a series that focused on the pivot to the remote work environment. Right? So basically I love them. All right, but let’s be practical here. Like a lot of people consume information differently.
People trust differently. Some people would prefer an industry analyst, assessment of customer happiness over review sites, others like reading long form case studies that kind of give you the whole narrative. Others will stop watching a customer success video after like 20 seconds, you know, as a customer marketer, you need to be able to cater to all these different ways of consuming storytelling.
However, my advice is always to think about priorities, but also, And aside from the goals and the resources, you have always link it back to addressing the needs of your sales team and always picture these people as being real human beings that are relatable. You know, they’re not stories, there are people who have achievements to share, right.
And, you know, make sure that each of, you know, the big three aligned back to these things.
00:32:09 Sam:
That’s yes, such a good point. And, I want to talk also about measurement as well, and I think, your CMO uh UDIA he has some really great points about that on LinkedIn. I’m sure you can share more about it, but I’d love to hear. yeah. How do you, all that Gong and you yourself, you know, think about, measuring or, you know, calculating the results of, you know, a customer story program, to the extent that you you feel the need to, you know, measure it.
And I’m sure it depends on the channel, but yeah. We’d love to hear about.
00:32:43 Patricia:
Yeah, a really great question. One that is I’m sure on top of mind, for most customer marketers, that’s just a question that always pops up. You know, how do you measure the value of your customer story program? Right. I mean, in the simplest barest sense, you can count how many you’re producing. Aligned to how, what your business seats are.
For example, if you want to move up market, you need to have three stories from up-market companies, right. But there’s a lot more nuance there that you can do. So one of the things about Gong is that, we drink our own champagne. I actually use trackers in Gong to know when the term case study is being mentioned by our sales team.
So I get informed each time a sales person shares a story in a presentation. So I use this for my own personal understanding of what’s resonating or not, which stories are popular or not with a sales team. And I’m able to track the growth in the mentions of the term case study, for example, But as you mentioned, it really depends on the channel who is tracking what you decide to track. Like if I do a customer webinar, which is still a customer story, by the way, is it getting replayed? Did it touch white space accounts or growth opportunities are existing customers rewatching it in our academy or community?
What was, you know, what was registration life? But it was, attendance like, or if I provide quotes or customer numbers from a survey tool, how can I get more eyeballs on it Like for example, we recently did new product marketing use case decks. We made sure to include case study slides in it and customer stats from. customer surveys into it has this new messaging and their associated stories, has been adopted by the sales team. Or if you’re in, just imagine, you know are you driving people to the review sites? what are the results? Are you creating banners with customers on them? What are the results there? there’s so many lenses that you have and, you know, I’m totally against gating customer stories, which is, I know huge for the digital space, but it’s good to just get up like a pulse on whether your content is being used internally, externally.
Is it being liked? Is it been shared? There’s so many ways of doing it. It’s it’s endless really. I would say to any customer marketer out there, see what is important to your organization. Sometimes it’s just like, look, we need five more stories on this topic and that’s good enough for your org, right?
Sometimes it’s like, we need to help demand gen. So reorient yourself to that priority. So every organization is different. Adjust accordingly.
00:35:32 Sam:
That’s yeah. Great advice. And, I think ties back to your earlier point about yeah. The starting with the right strategy in place.
So winding down here, just another thing I wanted to ask you about is customer events.
I know you’ve done a lot with customers what have you, I guess, what have you learned in, in, how does that relate to all things? Customer storytelling.
00:35:53 Patricia:
Yeah. So, it’s been a wild ride since the pandemic. I mean, we started off with zoom events that were very intimate, almost like little circles for customers to share their concerns, to vent about what’s going on and be used, breakout rooms to really, Kind of gets into a more intimate audience, our CSMs, where our hosts in this room. and we really just wanted to scale up that support and that kind of like relationship in that sense. Now people are a bit more picky about the events that they go to. So we decided to scale up into more webinars formats, which is a little bit more, you know, like case studies we bring in our revenue champions.
We bring in customer speakers to share their stories that these. And what has been really good about this as well, is that we’re able to create two pieces of content. From this, for example, we have the webinar recording as a whole, that gets watched from our, our community Gong gets watched from our, education teams, academy Gong, but we also try to do is do a writeup post event. So let’s say we have a customer that speaks to them about. Talks about their achievements using Gong. What we do is that we send this recording over to our writer. Who’s able to make a whole case study. That’s two pages long just based on the event. And that actually generates another piece of content that we can share out.
So again, I invite you to look into making the most out of whatever programs you are already doing and to kind of link that back to customer stories, to produce more.
00:37:28 Sam:
Such a good point and how can we all as marketers, you know, extend the content that we have and, take that and make it more extensible, you know, create additional micro content as well.
We talked about how like customer advocacy is very much a timeless concept.
But it’s also one, I think that, you know, is evolving very quickly and, you know, in exciting ways and to some extent, you know, everything old is new again, and we’re just getting new technology, but, where do you see it going in the future? you know what, specifically with, you know, customer stories, what do you see changes. you know, over the next, two, three or so w when, as it pertains to, you know, B2B customer stories,
00:38:11 Patricia:
Yeah. So the future of storytelling continues to evolve as our channels evolve as behavior changes. Will I be using Tik TOK for customer stories? I have no clue. I’m not sure if I want to, but I believe that as a whole B2B customer storytelling or customer marketing is moving towards rawness and authenticity.
I mean, there’s a saying, I heard recently from one of our Gongs tours. No one wants the corporate version of you and the pandemic was so awful in so many different ways. But one thing I did appreciate was that people were more open to sharing their vulnerability, their quirkiness, their families, their holes earlier in the pandemic, before we got to like slick remote filming figure.
I did a video series that showed how Gong was essential to remote work. And these were filmed on zoom. They were Grady. We had some bloopers with like kids coming out to print stuff in their dad’s office. Oh, we had delivery service come in. Midway. Of course those were edited out, but that’s 100% fine.
I just think that there’s room for us to bring that humanity back into our storytelling B to C companies do this really well. We need to bring that back into B2B customer storytelling, and I’ve made it my goal to make this happen more often at Gong. And I think we have had some pretty good starts, with getting a true customer voice and giving that authenticity back.
00:39:40 Sam:
Yeah, that’s definitely something that’s not going to change. We’re only moving toward more of it, of a need for authenticity. It will be really interesting also, maybe in the future with video deep fakes, how that’s going to be impacting things.
So, that’ll be interesting. Maybe we’ll all be watching our customer story videos in the metaverse and we will see.
Well, this has been fantastic, Patricia. Where can people get in touch with you and Gong, and connect if they want to learn more?
00:40:15 Patricia:
Feel free to add me on LinkedIn, and also please subscribe to the Gong LinkedIn page to watch or read our latest success stories, and visit our website. You could admire our new branding, but feel free to reach out to me anytime.
00:40:32 Sam:
Amazing. Thanks for joining the show today. It’s been a pleasure, and we’ll definitely have to do a “round two.”
00:40:38 Patricia:
Thank you, Sam.
00:40:39 Sam:
Awesome.
Alrighty, folks. That’s another episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast. I encourage you to follow Gong on LinkedIn to see exactly what we’ve been talking about, and connect with Patricia. Follow her. You’re going to learn a ton.
There’s so much that we couldn’t unpack in that episode. Aligning with priorities, figuring out those priorities, the strategic priorities, and ruthlessly aligning your customer storytelling with that. Finding allies internally. Leveraging your CS team. Using your tech stack. Using your NPS scores. Mining third-party reviews. We’ll have it all in the show notes.
As always, this has been another episode of the State of Customer Storytelling. I’m Sam Shepler, and we hope to hear from you in the next episode.
Evan Huck is the CEO and founder of UserEvidence. UserEvidence lets you unlock stories from happy customers, and automatically create a library of content assets. UserEvidence automatically generates hundreds of verified customer success stories and proof points in minutes, and their dedicated public Research Library allows you to cite independently-verified research about your customers' success.
In this episode Evan shares his insights as a specialist in B2B enterprise sales, marketing automation, and start-up growth. We talk about building trust using evidence-based customer stories. We also talk about using customer marketing throughout your sales funnel, the right way to ask customers for feedback, and what you need to include in your customer stories to persuade buyers.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to include customer evidence throughout the buyer’s journey
- Effective strategies for sharing customer stories on social media
- What to include in your customer stories to convince skeptical prospects
Links & Resources
- SurveyMonkey
- G2
- Gartner
- Gartner Peer Insights
- TrustRadius
- Google Forms
- Canva
- Infogram
- Salesforce
- ZoomInfo
- Showpad
- PathFactory
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Evan Huck’s Links
- Evan’s LinkedIn page
- UserEvidence
- Contact Evan
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Evan:
Surveys can do a really good job of not just being one-to-one conversations, but canvassing and capturing feedback from a lot of people at once. Surveys are also a great way to figure out what to do next. If you find out through a survey that you have unhappy customers, pass them to the product management team so they can figure out how to make the product better.
If you find you have happy customers, great. Let’s follow up and try to turn those customers into videos.
00:00:32 Sam:
Alright, folks. Welcome to another episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast. My guest today is Evan Huck. Evan is CEO and co-founder at UserEvidence. UserEvidence is a SaaS platform that enables you to capture and automatically publish verified proof points, ROI data, and customer success stories from your users.
Previously, he has been a sales leader and had a number of sales positions at TechValidate. When TechValidate was acquired by SurveyMonkey he served in the sales and sales leadership at SurveyMonkey. So, he’s got a lot of expertise in this space.
Evan, welcome to the show.
00:01:18 Evan:
Thank you, Sam. I’m excited to be here. Appreciate you having me.
00:01:21 Sam:
Absolutely. So just to start off, tell us a little bit more about UserEvidence. What is UserEvidence?
00:01:28 Evan:
Yeah. So we’re a fairly early-stage startup, and we’re software built for B2B tech marketers. Specifically, for customer marketers to really create stories, success stories, and proof points from their customers at scale. A lot of our customers have a large customer base, and it’s hard to create case studies manually.
So, UserEvidence as a way to create libraries and arsenals of evidence, and proof points and data points, and testimonials and reviews from a diverse range of your customers really quickly.
00:02:02 Sam:
What insight did you have that led you to start the company and pursue this particular kind of mission?
00:02:11 Evan:
I approached this from the sales side. I was an enterprise sales rep. In deals, I would always get asked, “Who do you work with that looks like me, that we can speak to, or that we can see a case study from?” If I’m talking to a bank, I want to see another bank that has a similar use case, and I would always have gaps.
So, I would go to marketing to say, “Hey, can we get another case study in insurance or the retail industry?” and they’d be like, “No, we’re only doing four this year, and that’s not on the list,” or, “Yes, you can, but you need to go out to your customer and get approval to do that. So, I’d try that, and they would always say no.
All of that was just really painful as a salesperson, and I’d imagine also pretty painful for the marketer. We figured there must be a better way.
00:02:56 Sam:
In terms of like the problem that UserEvidence solved, tell me more. How are you guys solving those problems?
00:03:05 Evan:
It’s hard to find customers that are willing to go on the record and share their stories publicly. Particularly, if you’re selling a larger enterprises, trying to get a big bank or federal government to go do a case study is nearly impossible. Even when you do it’s a bit of a process to interview them, get legal and PR approval to use their stories publicly, have a designer take that interview, and then chunk it up into digestible forms of content that sales can use.
So, the end problem is really sales teams or marketing teams have a shortage of proof points or stories which might sound like we’re missing stories in certain industries we’re trying to sell to.
We need more quantitative evidence to back up claims around performance or ROI, and it’s hard to do that.
That that’s really the problem that we’re solving.
00:03:57 Sam:
And, if we’re going to just, I think take it to the 10,000 foot level. Let’s talk a little bit about. The industry and why, you know, customer evidence is in, is more important than ever.
Right. And, yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. you know, for, especially for B2B companies, why do customer stories and customer evidence evidence-based marketing, you know, why, what does it all really matter?
And, you know, to.
00:04:22 Evan:
Yeah, I think it’s increasingly important partially because of a generational shift and just how he buys stuff. It’s probably weird, but like, I’ll do 15, 20 minutes of research on like what’s the best to thrash. And like, I’ll go to sites, read top 10 toothbrushes. And when I go to Amazon to actually buy it, I want to make sure it’s got at least 400 reviews and at least like a 4.7 rating.
So I think the. Method of how we evaluate products to sell on our own personal life has now, as we kind of grow up and become decision-makers in our own companies has flowed over into how we evaluate B2B products. I think, you know, back in the day is probably sufficient to have a couple of good looking case studies in the video, and you see some brands that you recognize you’re like, cool.
But now you’re like, wait a second. Like, I need to be a little bit more scientific about this. Like how does this vendor have. Evidence about how they’ve worked with someone in my industry. That’s a similar size and in a similar use case and similar challenge. And I’m probably not going to feel comfortable unless there’s sufficient evidence to demonstrate.
They’ve worked with someone in my shoes now
00:05:27 Sam:
A hundred percent and, I always say is it’s trust builds revenue, and like nothing happens before there’s trust. So, yeah, it’s really it’s. It is true. And one thing we were talking a little bit about, in the pre-show, the S setting a strategy. So like, if I’m a marketer who’s listening to this and I like what I’m hearing, you know, but I’d maybe feel like
I haven’t.
You know, I need to catch up or I’m a little like behind, you know, what tips or perspective would, would you share for someone who who’s just kind of wants to get started, you know, and actually figure out, you know, their strategy first and foremost. you know, as it pertains to, achieving all those things that you talked about, having more customer evidence, filling those gaps.
00:06:11 Evan:
Yeah. I mean, first of all, you’re not alone. I mean, I think like today as a customer marketer or just a marketer in general, like there’s so many. Different types of evidence and customer success stories. Now to, to keep track of like you have big well-produced videos, you have kind of selfie software and low produced videos.
You have testimonials the emergence of review sites like G2 crowd and Gartner, peer insights and trust radius. And so you need to figure out like, how do I take a finite scarce, like resource, which is the customer base, which we need to protect. And. Serve them up in a way that, that we can reproduce these stories across all these different channels.
So where to start, you know, I think cover your main customers first. Like you do need your logos on your website. You do need a couple of good videos. Like you do need your major case studies, but then if you’re a small team that you have to start figuring out ways to scale. Kind of one too many approaches to collect evidence and feedback and stories at scale.
So that’s where things like surveys can do a really good job of, you know, not just being one-to-one conversations, but canvassing and capturing feedback from a lot of people at once. and then also the survey is a great way to figure out where, what to do next. So, you know, if you find out through this survey that you have unhappy customers.
Pass them to the product management teams so they can figure out how to make the product better. If you find you have happy customers do that, then great. Let’s, let’s follow up and try to turn those customers into videos. So I think getting a pulse with your customer base and understanding who’s happy and who’s not, and where they’re at in their customer journey before dictates them, you know, an intelligent set of next steps or actions or advocacy activities that follows from that.
00:07:56 Sam:
And yeah, a hundred percent agree. And I love the point about, you know, you can get through the survey, you can kind of determine who those hand raisers are that are willing to do some of the more in-depth, advocacy activities. Like you mentioned, you know, video, et cetera. And, having that survey at scale, great way to identify them.
Now we’ve talked about surveys, obviously there’s a lot of, basic survey tools. However, I know UserEvidence, is very different and very unique and purpose belt for customer Evans. Just to give a little context for our listeners, can you tell me about that and like what’s different, you know, with UserEvidence, then like the, what most people think of as like a oh, like one of those survey tools.
00:08:43 Evan:
Yeah. So, I mean, survey tools, like we use Google forms, we use SurveyMonkey for a variety of different things from doing market research, to even getting our own customer feedback, to planning events, to getting people’s t-shirts sizes that they’re incredibly useful for a number of different things. I think what we’ve done with UserEvidences is use a survey as part of our application, but then we’ve, purpose built a workflow and a set of features around taking survey feedback, particularly happy feedback from customers, but then actually turning it into finished elegant, branded marketing content and collateral. So the main difference is we just did a survey and got customer feedback. You know, you have an Excel spreadsheet.
Data. Right. But then that data needs to be cranked analyzed and pulled out and then turned into content assets. So we built a process to basically automate the creation of things like case studies, for instance, at the click of a button where traditionally that would take, you know, a person, many weeks to, to come up with a finalized case study.
00:09:41 Sam:
So it sounds like, so if I’m, you know, using UserEvidence, I can sort of, I can send the survey,
I get all that great content. and then instead of trying to figure out, oh, I have to get this designed, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Kind of just automagically, design it, is that fair to say, I can sorta like click a button and it segments the best quotes.
It, designs it. And you know, I got my quote cards. I’ve got my slides. I have like a one pager. Is that basically fair to say?
00:10:08 Evan:
Yeah, exactly. Right. So, you know, we’ll take the positive data. So that might be testimonials or case studies from individuals and transform it into templates, essentially, that look really good and have your brand, or it might be statistical evidence where they might quantify things like ROI and you might create a statement that said 80% of our customers saw ROI and four months or less.
So we’ve been really inspired this. Set of what I would call citizen design tools like Canva. And Infogram that do a really good job of taking a normal person like you or me and allowing them to create cool looking documents that are really well done. and so we’re trying to democratize that, that design ability for normal marketers that have no design background to still create really good finished content and collateral that fits beautifully into a website or a sales presentation.
00:10:57 Sam:
Love it hugely valuable. And so if you’re currently just using surveys and you’re manually kind of handling that design, there you go, UserEvidence, that will solve a lot of your challenges. said he wants to talk about this kind of idiom of using the whole chicken as it pertains to, you know, customer advocacy and, in customer evidence.
Tell me more about that. What do you, what do you mean by, you know, using the whole chicken?
00:11:25 Evan:
Yeah. my wife’s big into sustainability and like my sister is an organic farmer, so we’d talk a, lot about sustainability and food. And one part of that is reducing waste. And so
Using the whole chicken, means, you know, dumped, just chop off the wings and make wings and then throw the rest of the chicken the way, like there’s a lot of good stuff in that take the meat. And then after you’re done with the bones, making them to stock and all that. So not to beat the analogy to death, but that same. Problem presents itself with customer feedback. Specifically, if you look at an organization, there is a, a lot of different functions within an organization that wants customer feedback, which is again, a scarce resource and the customer base needs to be protected.
So you have customer support, pinging them about how they can make the support experience better. Product management and UX and UI design PNM to figure out how to make the product experience better. There are people are paying G2 and Gardner to send emails, to get reviews. they’re asking them to do videos to do case studies.
So you have all these people asking customers, Hey, can we get your time for some sort of feedback? but it’s very, right now, it’s very single purpose. And the way we do that, like will GT is a good example where we’ll go out and say, Hey, do you mind leaving a review? And we’ll ask that to everybody, even unhappy customers.
And we’ll just say, okay, if you’re not happy, we don’t want that. Then we’ll throw it away. Same thing with product feedback, we’ll say, Hey, is there anything we can prove? Someone says, no, I love it. Great. We’re done with that person. And there’s an opportunity to be more intelligent about, what kind of feedback we’re asking depending on where that person is in the customer journey and how happy they are.
So for instance, if they are happy, Maybe a good opportunity to product feedback, but maybe a better opportunity to get a video or a case study versus someone that’s unhappy, not a good time to ask for a review if you just crashed their servers and whatever. but a great time to get product feedback.
So I think we can be more intelligent about the feedback asks we put in front of customers. If we can somehow just get some insight beforehand on how happy they are and where they are on their customer journey.
00:13:33 Sam:
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense and, completely agree. And that’s, that’s a great analogy. In terms of, I love the idea of reducing waste to right. as marketers, that is what we need to do, right. Where everything needs to go a little bit further. And you know, the, the sort of impetus is, do more with what you have.
Right. and extensibility, micro content, all of these things.
If we’re going to talk, I guess, about reducing waste, I’m curious like specifically for like the customer advocacy side or customer evidence side where do you see, I’m curious, is there a place where you see like a lot of waste, you know, happening, you know, right now, like current.
00:14:15 Evan:
Yeah. the micro content is a great example of a solution to a waste problem, right? Like we put a ton of effort into getting a marquee customer to do a video, for instance. and we put a ton of production money into that, there’s a long tail of content snippets, snackable digestible.
Potential cool content you can create from that, that doesn’t happen. So I think the whole concept of taking longer format content and chunking it up into different formats, but also the concept of creating variance or kind of different templates or themes or skins around content that are appropriate for different channels, is really interesting as well. you know, even when the video just creating different. Kind of preview screens for LinkedIn and social versus what you would show in a longer white paper downloads. So I think there’s the method. There is kind of varying the attention span or length of the office. For the appropriate channel and chances are like, there’s already a lot of good potential content that you put a lot of work into.
There’s probably a way to kind of chunk it up into different formats, to get a lot more life out of that content like this podcast, for instance, we will take pieces of this and we will use it for a long time. So things like that can be very useful.
00:15:32 Sam:
A hundred percent. Yeah. And that’s, that’s a great example. Right. you know, we’re gonna, we’re going to chop this up. We’re gonna, distributed on social and, and really yeah. Turn it into that, that micro content and, and customer, customer content should be no different. Uh it’s it’s so true.
And, in terms of another thing that you mentioned that when we were, you know, in the pre show is like you guys are passionate. And care about telling the story of, the little guy or the little gal, right? I think you mean in terms of helping marketing teams have not just focused solely on those marquee names and also, building, you know, your customer stories for, those more. Normal or standard size, logos, right. That are marquee names. But tell me, tell, tell us more about that. You know, what do you mean by that and why, why does it matter?
00:16:18 Evan:
Yeah, I think, part of the reason that’s a problem, Customer advocacy, customer marketing, I think kind of stemmed originally from kind of corporate marketing, which has more of a kind of brand and communications forward focus and, and so naturally, and this is a good thing, like naturally, like they, their first step, when they think of customer marketing is to think about how can we get.
Ferrari onstage talking about how they’re using IBM databases to make cars faster, whatever, like cool stories, big brands that everyone knows lots of high production value, and that’s kind of the gold standard. And if you ask him mark, you’re like, yeah, we need to get more far as an NFL is and Goldman Sachs on the record and stuff, but then you’ll talk to a salesperson.
This is actually a great, great conversation to have one of our customers last week. well known brand that everyone. and they have plenty of great customer stories, but their problem was they had a bunch of reps in APAC, you know, in Japan that were pretty new regional office. And all they would have is Ferrari and NFL and Goldman Sachs.
And that they’re trying to sell to Japanese companies And they don’t have any stories that are regionally appropriate for Japanese companies. And that, that see, you see that same thing with small companies as well. Yeah, I know how, yeah. The NFL uses Salesforce to, to do this, this and this, but that doesn’t necessarily help me figure out me as a startup uses Salesforce.
Right? so there is a relevancy issue. If we focus only on top customers, we’re not appropriately representing, the diversity of our customer base and Demonstrating that we’ve worked for someone that, that looks like that particular prospect. so that’s what I meant by like representing the little guys is be kind of be more representative of your entire customer base and more accurate with how you’ve worked.
Certain segments. I worked with certain segments, I think is one thing that can help build trust and just reduce uncertainty for a buyer.
00:18:12 Sam:
So true. And, and, another thing that, I know you’re passionate about and problem that you guys are tackling is, Breen the data and the statistical proof to. customer average, C to. customer storytelling. Can you tell me a little bit about that? You know, where do you, what do you see changing in, in what’s your core belief there as it, as it really, you know, as it pertains to, you know,
00:18:36 Evan:
Yeah, that’s a great question. first, both are important. different types of people make decisions in different ways. I think this is why you see a politician like a presidential candidate, every part of their speech. They’re going to say, you know, I’ve talked to. David, who’s a mechanic in Kansas and Marty.
Who’s a nurse in Vermont and they’re having this, this and this, versus, you know, Al gore style, get up there and talk about data and classes and stuff like that. Is it sometimes a different way of communicating? both, both are important, I think on the data side. it’s important for those people that are more analytically minded.
Like me when I buy stuff. To present that more evidence based, argument or story, about how your product’s going to deliver return on investment or increase pipeline generation or whatever the metric is that they’re trying to measure. I’m a good example. I’m evaluating right now. Data providers.
We’re looking at ZoomInfo, which is obviously the most well known in the category and costs a lot of money. And then we’re working with another, or we’re looking at another vendor, less well-known less money, but claims that they have 40% better mobile number data than X-date. Awesome. Like, if that was true, like, that’d be sweet, but we would buy them.
But I have no way to verify that that’s the, that’s just their claim. And I’m probably going to go with the safer option just because I know the Memphis name, even though this other vendor might be better, but if they had a way to actually back up those claims with some, some numbers and some evidence, and some examples from actual customers beyond just one or two case studies on their website.
I would give them a chance. So I think, yeah, particularly emerging vendors, miss out a lot. If you’re not presenting, you know, statistical evidence to an antiquated locally minded buyer.
00:20:25 Sam:
Yeah, such a good point. you know, it’s definitely not, either or it’s got to gotta be both. You know, so I think for you coming from like a sales background is that’s pretty unique. I think in, in you have a great perspective. And actually, I, my, I have a sales background as well, but like, you know, you have a great perspective on, what sales wants out of kind of the customer advocacy function, and you know, customer evidence.
And, you know, maybe you can speak to that a little bit. and feel free to, I don’t know if you have any interesting stories to, share from your time in the trenches, bout that. Yeah.
00:21:03 Evan:
That’s why I’m laughing. I think oftentimes it’s, it’s what sales wants in terms of content and collateral and stories is very different than what marketing wants and certainly different than, than what we actually have. yeah, I think for sale. A great example is like one of my previous companies, like we got this beautiful slide deck that they spent way too much money on.
But it looked awesome. Had a couple awesome stories, but then as a sales person, I’d be like, all right, well, I’m talking to someone in different industry, different uses. I’m just going to cut this up and make it a little bit different. and so marketing would always just gasp at like how sales has carved up there once beautiful deck into this much more ugly, but tactically useful document that’s appropriate for their prospect.
Yeah. I think sales, like if you ask them, we want more variety and coverage across different types of customers. Like, most of the time we’re not trying to sell to Ferrari in the NFL, like if we are great, but like a lot of times it’s just, there’s a poor mid-market AAE that has some, you know, territory and there’s probably not good representation and customer stories from that industry or that segment.
So I think variety is what we want. we want good coverage across different industries. Use cases, personas, regions, like we mentioned, I think we also want just short, like our attention spans. Aren’t very high as salespeople. Certainly our prospects, when they’re looking at, you know, 900 emails a day, the attention span is really, really low So, you know, the five page long glossy case study log in like that we need that we need it later in the sales cycle when we’ve earned that attention span When. Just headlines, snippets, little attention, grabber stuff that we can put an email we can put on social. that’s just super low attention span, but, but hard hitting. those, those are finger to just tactical differences and let sales once. And usually what marketing provides.
00:22:53 Sam:
Yeah, that’s a great point. And you hit on, You know, the, the buyer journey in different stages in the buyer journey, which I think is a really interesting and, nuanced topic that is very important. So I’m curious, like, how do you think about. customer evidence throughout the buyer journey. Cause I feel like it’s only in the past couple of years where like we’ve been thinking about, you know, I think customer evidence, throughout the whole entire buyer journey.
Cause it used to be much more of like a checkpoint, you know, they’re, they’re almost there hit them with the case study, kick them over the line type of thing. Right? Like maybe that was what the default five years ago. And now, you know, thankfully. customer content is really just like any form of marketing content and a lot of ways, but I’d love to hear.
And of course it has to be through the buyer journey with that in mind. But yeah, I’d love to hear, your thoughts on that. within sales process as well. because the sales process is just one part of the buyer journey, but there’s very different stages in the sales processes.
00:23:55 Evan:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think the nature of the topic that you’re talking about at different stages in the sales funnel is very different. Like, you know, early in the sales funnel, when they’re barely aware of the problem that they have. And they’re just kind of considering even entering into looking at something at this space and that awareness funnel that’s where like market research does really well.
I mean, Marco. Is a form of customer research. Not all of the data might come from customers. Some of them might come from prospects, but showing people, Hey, look, your peers are struggling with the same challenges that you are. They’re thinking about evolving to this next stage in their maturity and getting a little bit towards that kind of pure.
Almost fear, right. Where it’s like, ah, people are thinking about this. Like I should be thinking about it, is really interesting. And then of course, when you get later in the funnel and you’ve again, earned attention span, then you can say, okay, here’s why we’re better than this particular competitor for people in this industry. And here’s how we’ve delivered ROI for someone that has a very similar use case to you. So that’s another interesting use cases for surveys. Is, you can cover a lot of different topics. And I think that when you, when you think of a case study, you know, and review and stuff like that, you kind of think about that end state, right?
Like, oh, we use the product, we loved it. And we got a bunch of results in ROI and stuff, but potentially equally as interesting is getting feedback and showing data from people earlier in that awareness consideration stage, like w what challenges were you solving? Where are you thinking about where the industry is going.
Yeah, I think I’ve seen more and more, which is great. of those kind of 2000 22 state of ax industry reports. and I think those are performing really well because people are interested in what their peers are doing and they want to stay on top of their job function. They want to stay on top of their industry.
So that’s sort of market research data and thought leadership and industry trends. Data can be really interesting, particularly early in the sales funnel. And that might not necessarily be thought of traditionally. customer advocacy, but it can be customer data.
00:25:59 Sam:
Yeah. And so it sounds like, you know, in the, in the very beginning, like top of the funnel, Like customer content is still valuable, but it’s, it can’t be like the traditional like case study content because, they’re not solution aware or like in the consideration stage, they first, it’s almost like they just need to admit they have the problem or like, realize like that it is a problem. So, so maybe it sounds like the customer content would be more like. Religious eliciting that, that pain, or like, talking about the category is, is that, is that kind of correct?
00:26:35 Evan:
Yeah, I think, I think that’s right. and I think, yeah, here’s an example to add something specific to, let’s say Salesforce published a report, a survey of 279 sales leaders from companies in zero to 10 million ARR that are SAS companies and talked about. The report was, you know, 2020 twos. How remote working as changed outbound prospecting.
And we asked 272 Salesforce. I would download the report. That’s that’s incredibly interesting. Right? It’s it’s timely, it’s relevant. It speaks to a huge problem that we have. I don’t need to know what Salesforce does it all yet. I don’t care, but it’s Salesforce customers and I want to read it. And then when I get further, yeah, I can then read case studies and stuff like that.
But dream forward, substantive, timely data and research about your customers or the market. that’s going to get eyeballs, right. Just cause again, it’s, so important for people to stay on top of that stuff.
00:27:32 Sam:
Absolutely. And, I think we’ve, we’ve sorta hit on it a little bit and various, you know, shapes and forms, but, you know, I’m curious, how do you think about the different, mediums. of customer evidence, you know, the, maybe the big big three being, you know, written case studies, third-party reviews and then customer videos.
How do you sort of just kind of compare, contrast, those different formats and obviously, yeah, it’s not a not an either or thing.
00:28:02 Evan:
Yeah. Yeah. I think really awesome examples of this I’ve seen yet integrate them really well. yeah. I think if you look at consumer companies, Snapchat and Instagram and stuff like that. Like when you’re scrolling through your feed. Yeah. Picture, video, little highlighted, quote, whatever, like it all just, it feels natural and it flows from one to the other.
And I think, I think that’s going to be a great experience, in a B2B context as well. So I liked the idea of, regardless of where it’s sourced from, it could be sourced from user Everence, testimonial, video, G2, whatever, like starting to integrate all these assets into. Contextual personalized micro-sites or micro experiences for prospects that blends a lot of these formats or mediums. but then also allow engagement and progression within that medium. So for instance, like you might start with a microsite with some of the market research stuff, and then as someone clicks through and gets more interested, maybe a dynamically then morphs into case studies that are relevant for that type of prospect in their industry. So I think. Yeah, the technology is there. You look at, Showpad, look, book, or whatever it’s called now, path factory, and some of these technologies to dynamically present content. I think customer sourced content is an evidence is, it’s a vastly more important ingredient today. and I think there’s a tool set that enables marketers to get really creative with how they present it. So I think it’ll be exciting. To see what I think is a much needed shift in, in getting towards a more kind of digitally native, immersive, engaging experience and presentation of customer evidence.
00:29:41 Sam:
Such a good point for the future trends, you know? So what, maybe we can say one future trend is more immersive, interactive. You know, ways of kind of consuming that, customer content, you know, at the L the leisure of the buyer, what other kind of, trends do you see, you know, from your vantage point as a as a CEO, as a founder in this industry, anything else that you are very bullish on that, that you see, like, this is, you know, this is the future and we hit on micro concept, but yeah.
Any, any other key.
00:30:13 Evan:
Yeah, I think. the emergence of peer based research, I think is going to be increasingly important. I mean, I think, you know, 10 years ago, for most enterprise purchases, people place a ton of weight on Gardner and Forrester and analyst firms. And I would wager there’s some chunk of the audience today that probably has never heard those names.
And who cares? Like we don’t like, why am I going to need to go look at some stuff? Person talking about some new technology that I know my friends know better than they do. Right. So I think it’s really interesting, like what G2 and TrustRadius and those folks are doing. on the other hand, like, that’s getting kind of noisy too, and there’s, there’s definitely some manipulation of those review sites as well. so I think it’s going to be because it’s so noisy, like trust is becoming So much more important than I think it’s going to be very interesting. To see who becomes trusted sources. one idea that I have that I think is really interesting. and like I got this from just like joining cool slack communities around product led growth and customer marketing is like references and case studies from people that are, I know, are experts in the community.
Waits as experts are vastly more important to me than somebody random saying, I love this stuff. So I think we’ll see. Kind of like micro influencers in a way, but kind of micro analysts or micro experts pop up as experts in their particular domain that have an outsized influence on how people make decisions.
So again, I think it becomes more, it’s a cool shift. It’s what I would call a democratization of, of influence to people that are probably like practitioners and people that actually have hands-on experience. That are probably better suited to comments on the strength of someone’s technology or product.
00:31:59 Sam:
It’s such a good point in terms of. I also think, you know, in terms of like the trust factor and how, how it’s going to change and like, even in our space at Testimonial Hero, there’s, deep fakes right. Or in video are incoming already, you know, being used for like fake consumer reviews.
Or logistical. You know, some stuff with like an actor who it’s like, Tom cruise endorses the commercial. But because he films it as a deep fake, he doesn’t need to show up on set and it’s done, you know? So like, augmented media as a whole interesting thing, but, but yeah, to your point, it’s like the, the credibility of the individual and the fact that you know them and, you know, it only becomes more important because.
You know, if you’re connected with them on LinkedIn, you can literally go and ask them, say, Hey, I saw you were in that video testimonial for, you know, you know, company X, anything like you want, you’d add to that. Like do you really love the product? And then, you know, you can sort of there’s like that.
That manual verification if you know them or if you follow them, you know, and I think that is, thankfully what we can do in B to B that we can’t really do on the consumer scale.
00:33:15 Evan:
Yeah.
Yeah. Link. Thank You LinkedIn, for forgiving a Symbility to verify for the most part. yeah. I, I, it really interesting like, that he brought that up and that’s another feature ideas. Like you know, customer stories right now are often are almost always static. Right? And they’re one way, it’s a story that’s going out.
It’s not a conversation at all. I think people start to bring in an element of conversation where, like you said, You can actually ask and you might even get paired with someone dynamically that’s in your industry and in a similar type of use case and say, Hey, look, here’s a reference. That’s no good for you.
And it’s not the old school format of like, let’s set up a reference call, which sounds scary and terrible. Like it’s a more fluid, you know, socially native dynamic conversation, I think is a really interesting concept to us.
00:34:04 Sam:
A hundred percent.
Evan, this has been great. For folks listening, how can they get in touch and learn more about you and connect with you, and also learn more about a UserEvidence?
00:34:16 Evan:
Yeah, just ping me directly. I’m evan@userevidence.com. I’m also on LinkedIn, Evan Huck. So, I would love to talk. This is obviously a fun topic for us, and something that we think a lot about. So, I’m eager to hear feedback.
00:34:33 Sam:
Wonderful. Thanks so much, Evan. We’ll have to have you on for a round two.
00:34:38 Evan:
Yeah, indeed. Looking forward to it.
00:34:40 Sam:
Alrighty folks. That was a great episode with Evan Huck, of UserEvidence.com. Some really good stuff that we hit on around reducing waste in customer feedback. I think that’s just such a powerful, powerful image, and powerful metaphor to think about. That’s something we should all be asking ourselves. Where’s the waste in our process right now? and how can we be more sustainable with our customer marketing, with our customer evidence, and in our customer feedback?
We talked a lot about micro content and the power of “snackable” content in today’s day and age, especially for distributing that content over social media. It needs to be snackable.
We talked a ton about the power of evidence, and data and statistical proof. I definitely recommend checking out UserEvidence.com. That’s one of the key things they focus on is getting those data insights.
This has been the State of Customer Storytelling podcast. I’m Sam Shepler with Testimonial Hero. If you have any other folks that you’d love to hear us chat with, shoot me an email. My email is sam@testimonialhero.com. We’re always looking for new guests for the show.
Until then, we look forward to seeing you in the next episode.
My guests today are Liz Richardson and Deena Zenyk, from Captivate Collective. Captivate Collective helps businesses expand the impact of their customer advocacy journey. Liz and Deena can help your business identify customer needs, present your unique value proposition to your customers, and position your company as a leader in your field.
On today’s podcast, Liz and Deena talk about building a successful customer advocacy program. We talk about the current shift in marketing and sales, and how you can be at the forefront of the current practices in customer advocacy. Liz and Deena share their strategies for understanding customer needs, the role of customer stories in advocacy marketing, and much more.
Liz Richardson is an award-winning customer marketer and advocacy executive. She is known for her innovative work in customer engagement methodology. Liz built the services team at Influitive, and served most recently as their VP of Customer Advocacy. Liz is continually generating innovation in the best practices in the advocacy and engagement field.
Deena Zenyk has over 15 years of hands-on experience in advocate marketing and customer engagement. She is the co-author of The Messenger is the Message. As the head of the Center of Excellence at Influitive, Deena consulted with over 100 B2B organizations, and is considered a true thought-leader in her field.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why there’s never been a better time to practice customer-focussed marketing
- One of the most misunderstood components of great customer advocacy
- How perceptions about authenticity and trust are changing
- The impact of COVID and remote work on customer advocacy
Links & Resources
- Mark Organ
- HubSpot
- Salesforce
- Slack
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Liz Richardson’s Links
- Liz Richardson’s LinkedIn
- Captivate Collective
- Influitive
Deena Zenyk’s Links
- Deena Zenyk’s LinkedIn
- Captivate Collective
- Deena’s book: The Messenger is the Message
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Liz:
What can I offer as a vendor that they can’t get anywhere else? Or, they can get better from me than they can from someone else? Those are very important questions to answer and think through as the amount of communities, programs, and whatnot continues to expand.
There are so many options; what is your key value proposition that is unique to just you?
00:00:31 Sam:
Alrighty, folks. Welcome to another great episode today of the State of Customer Storytelling. My guests are Liz Richardson and Deena Zenyk, the co-founders and managing partners at Captivate Collective.
Liz is an award-winning customer marketer and advocacy executive known for her work in a customer engagement methodology. She was also VP of Customer Advocacy at Influitive.
Deena is a pioneer in her field with over 15 years of hands-on experience in advocate marketing and customer engagement. She also co-authored a fantastic book, which I highly recommend, The Messenger is the Message, with Influitive and Eloqua founder, Mark Organ.
Liz and Deena, Welcome to the show.
00:01:21 Liz:
Thanks for having us, Sam. It’s always lovely to collaborate with you.
We’re so glad we found you through the customer marketing network that we’re proud to be a part of.
00:01:34 Sam:
Likewise. I always look forward to our conversations. I evolve my thinking, and learn a lot.
I was thinking about how to explain to people what Captivate Collective was in the intro, but it almost, in many respects, defies a neat categorization, because what you both do is so unique and powerful.
So, maybe just in your own words, what is Captivate Collective, and what do you do?
Who do you help?
00:02:10 Deena:
We are laser-focused on customer advocacy and working with companies who are embarking on their customer advocacy journey, or who are mid-flight, and looking to expand the impact of what they’re doing with their customers.
We typically sit on the strategy side with our clients. We do so because we are always looking at, “What is the next best practice?” How can we help our clients get ahead of the curve with customer engagement?
00:02:58 Sam:
I love that.
On your website, right up front, you make a really interesting point about how customer advocacy is a practice, not a platform.
Tell us more about that.
00:03:14 Deena:
It’s a strong statement. Both of us come from an advocacy platform provider. Liz and I were the first two folks on the services team at that provider. What we saw happen, over and over again, were clients who had made a purchase decision about a product before they actually had an advocacy strategy in place. The strategy was driven by what was most important to the business, and executed through best practices that are common across platforms.
We believe that the practice of customer advocacy is different to the platform. The platform is the channel through which you’re executing your strategy of the practice, and the best practices sit outside of the platform, and inform how you execute on your plan.
00:04:13 Liz:
I like that.
The, the phrase too. It’s, it’s great that it caught your eyes. Sam. We find that it’s catching a lot of people’s eyes, even practitioners who’ve been in this space for a long time. We’ll read that for the first time and kind of have an aha moment of oh yeah. Like, like. advocacy is not limited to any one tool or channel or anything of the kind, you know, advocacy is a practice and one that we’re very passionate about and the tools and the channels and the growing ecosystem around the customer marketing and advocacy space is there to support that strategy.
You can choose tools based on, oh, that’s a really cool tool. I love how it engages customers or it does this, or does that, however, if you don’t have the strategy first, you are in danger of trying to create a strategy based on the platform rather than the needs of your organization or the desires.
And. No engagement style of the audience that you’re actually trying to build relationship with. So it’s, it’s, you know, customer needs first business needs first, combine that for a strategy, then choose the tools that will support that strategy. and not the other way. Right.
00:05:32 Deena:
Yeah, I would add to that as well. for, how do we hold up that statement? When we think about customer advocacy inside the organization as a program or vis-a-vis, platform, that’s one lens, that’s one way of thinking about advocacy and that’s one way for your colleagues and your executives to think about advocacy.
When you think about advocacy as a practice and you position advocacy as a practice, that is, that is guided by best practice. I think that you are opening up your scope and potential, inside your business to be a real player, to be a real strategic player. You know, not that there’s anything wrong with being a program manager, programs and platforms have a place in the realm of customer advocacy.
But framing this as a legitimate business practice, not a.
00:06:24 Liz:
This is a great. Deena, because if you think about other practices in the organization, they are not associated with a single tool. You know, my role as a, customer marketer is not my HubSpot instance. You know, my role as a sales rep is not my Salesforce instance.
The there, there, is a practice and as customer marketing and advocacy professionals grow in their. prominence in the organization. It is important that, people start to see them as the practice and not a specific program or tool.
00:06:58 Sam:
Such a, such a good point. And it’s like, reminds me of this quote. I’m not sure who said it, but it was like, you know, of methods, there are many of principles, there are few, right? It’s like, there’s kind of foundational best practices that can be applied and, you know, myriad different ways.
I almost like, you know, if you don’t get the foundational principles, Right. Almost none of the tactical stuff matters. So it’s such a, such a key point. I love that one of the, one of the other things that, I really, you know, that we were talking about it and you know, right before this is like, you know, customer, how customer MC is evolving.
Right. Cause like, and I think in some ways we’re like in the very much in the early days of, of, customer adversity, but, but also. Because it’s changing so fast and it almost feels like we’re, we’re into like a customer advocacy Renaissance right now. and maybe, you know, a customer advocacy 2.0, I’d be curious, like, given both of your backgrounds in this space, No. How have you seen that, that evolution from your perspective and you know, what have been some of the hallmarks of, you know, that, that shift from like customer advocacy, 1.0, to now what we’re seeing, you know, customer advocacy, 2.0.
00:08:12 Liz:
Yeah, that’s a really good question because you’re right, Sam, it’s like, it’s, it’s a old and new practice at the same time, in terms of the other practices in the organization, it’s a very young player. and it’s still evolving, but in terms of, Hey, you know, now this practice has been around 10, 15, 20 years, you know, depending on how far back you want to look at what it is today.
That’s enough time for the ecosystem to have changed quite a bit. And that’s enough time where. Your business, the business layout in general has changed enough that, that we are seeing the needs of the organizations changed. A great example, you know, is even with the pandemic and what happened over the last year and a half that has shifted business objectives and engagement with customers quite drastically and has led to some of the.
Oh, or the focus on customer marketing and customer advocacy. So we have been forced to mature to keep maturing and mature faster than maybe we would have. But yeah, so Deena and I, as background as practitioners, we are some of the earliest, probably in this space, Deena’s specifically, building programs before B2B customer advocacy programs were really.
Thing they were more experimental and they were unusual or unique. we are seeing them come to more prominence and more regularity inside of the B2B space. so if we go back to what we call advocacy one dot oh, and we juxtapose that with advocacy two Datto with advocacy, one dot, oh, there were some very specific things in place with the practice.
So first of all, kind of a unit. Consensus that advocacy was focused, pretty much a hundred percent on happy customers. Right. and it, it was finding your happy customers and utilizing them for advocacy outcomes. And those outcomes were. Pretty squarely fixated on marketing and sales. And the value proposition was this idea of organizations and the lack of trust with organizations in general.
And how are we going to get people to listen to our message? If there is an inherent lack of trust with organizations who will they listen to? And the shift in. And we in human society from trusting institutions to being peer led because of the connectedness of the internet and social media and whatnot.
And so, you know, like Deena’s book is called The Messenger is the Message, the point of how do we get our message across the people who tell that message being just as important as the message itself. So, so the outcomes of advocacy we’re really focused on. The sales to get that message, the message, through to your prospects, that you would not have the trust to give yourself.
And then a couple other factors you know, the emphasis on one-to-one relationships. so they were typically small programs with a white glove type of engagement. And then also, you know, they were. Single destination engagement programs. I mean, they were new. There weren’t a lot of them.
So a lot of these programs, had a single destination, maybe for everybody, you know, they were more general and approach a one size fits all type of approach with advocacy, one dot O. did I sum that up? Anything I’m missing Deena that you would add to advocacy one Dotto.
00:11:52 Deena:
10 out of 10
00:11:55 Liz:
Pass the test.
00:11:56 Deena:
Passed the test.
00:11:58 Liz:
So, you know, do you want to add to that?
00:12:02 Sam:
Yeah, it was, well, I was just going to say, you mentioned the sort of, you know, obviously we’re post 20, 20 now in, in a hybrid or, you know, often purely remote environment how, how do you think. or what have you both seen in terms of how that’s affecting, you know, advocacy and, you know, customer stories and, and all of that.
I mean, is it as simple as, you know, I know, you know, maybe it’s like, you know, gift cards are not as valuable anymore. Cause like people now. actually really want like time it’s like, time is more valid than ever, because there’s always something to do when you’re around your house, but yeah.
You know, with your kids, with your family, like, so like, I guess how has like the remote work kind of changing the advocacy space and the fact that many, not all of us, but many of us are, you know, working remote.
00:12:50 Deena:
I think one factor, you know, when COVID hit, was companies all of a sudden, you know, have this focus on. Customers. Right. And instead of looking for new customers, it was about how are we going to retain the customers that we have. So as the customer, you know, people started to get really quite inundated with communications opportunities, all virtual, right?
So. the whole idea of sitting through another webinar, maybe not quite as exciting as it once was. We’ve all heard about the kind of wild and wacky world of virtual meetups where, you know, you’re learning how to make a cocktail or smelling cheese or, you know, whatever it is. Right. lots of really interesting, ideas out.
But coming through that now with people kind of firmly settled into their remote rules, what we’ve seen happen over the last year is a real uptick in, just kind of sporadic point in time communities that aren’t necessarily driven by a vendor. So there are a lot of really great slack communities out there that we’ve seen pop up.
That are focused on a practice area, right? Which is what customer advocacy programs have done as well. So you are, a marketing automation, professional, defender joined my program, learn how to become a really good marketing automation professional. That’s one of the benefits with the slack communities that they’re super diverse, right?
Not vendor driven, but still driven by the practice. So folks are getting kind of what, what they need. in some ways from those programs, and then there are vendor driven, slack communities, as well, which are kind of filling that gap. So it’s becoming, you know, less gated. So as part of adequacy to Datto, we really talk about unindicted advocacy, where it’s no longer necessarily about going to a destination and being a kind of a card carrying advocate.
There are many different ways for customers to interact and participate. Inside your business inside your program, inside a platform outside of it and outside of your business and in the practice community.
00:15:04 Liz:
Yeah, I agree with that. And to your point, Sam, and to Deena’s, you know, this availability and we’ll call it of us all to connect at any time anywhere. I mean, If you even think back five years ago, the expectation wasn’t that I would just be connecting with people all over the world all the time. The ease of connection is so great.
And there’s a lot of great things that come with that. There are a lot of challenges. That come with that. So even when we felt like with social media, there was this new space and we are inundated with all this information. So to, in vendor relationship, you have some of that same mimicking going on. You have a lot more programs available now because, like Deena said, people are buying into the value of customer relationships as being extremely important.
And so. Everyone knows they need to engage their customers. And everyone is thinking about the best way to do that. And so now you, as a customer advocacy, professional need to understand, well, if I have the desire to connect with my customers, what kind of incentives am I going to put in front of them that will differentiate.
Anything they can get from any other vendor who has a program where they’re offering benefits of some kind. And when I say incentives, I don’t, I know people, medically start thinking of prices, rewards, and whatnot, but I mean, what’s the value to me to being part of the. And, and so I think with advocacy two dot, oh, what we talk about is this need for increased personalization, right?
It’s not good enough anymore to throw up an advocacy or a customer program and say like, Hey, awesome customers. We’ve got a really cool program for you. You being, you generally, you, we need now to be thinking more. Lee about who these people are as individuals as well. And we need to be personalizing the value proposition of our programs based on more information, more exploration, more data, so that we can.
Dan’s out and offer the most value possible so that our customers are excited about that collaboration, because it doesn’t feel like we’re asking them to do us favors. It feels like we’re offering exactly what they want and need.
00:17:34 Sam:
Such a good point. And, kind of drilling down into like the customer storytelling, subset of advocacy. Ah, I’d love to hear cause cause many times that. is, you know, I think people’s first, you know, foray into the advocacy umbrella is often driven by, you know, customer stories and, and the need for those. I’m, I’m curious, how do both of you, you know, think about, customer storytelling and customer stories specifically as, you know, a part of that. Overarching, you know, maybe one pillar of the kind of overarching advocacy umbrella or over keeping.
00:18:09 Liz:
I do think is a key key part. because when I think of advocacy in, in like the, the peak of, Hey, what is an ultimate advocate look like? And I will often define that as someone who has. Connected your brand to their personal brand. It is now part of their personal brand story. So when your company has been able to identify a need and insert themselves in the need of that individual and not just making that business look great, because at the end of the day, all businesses are made up of individuals and we all are trying to succeed at something.
So if I come alongside as a vendor and I am able to fulfill some of the needs of you, Sam as an individual, and to such an extent that that is now part of my personal brand story, it is very hard at that point for me to remove that. Story of your, your brand out of my personal brand. And now you have ultimate advocacy because our stories are connected.
So the connection of stories is a very, very important aspect of advocacy and the, honestly the height of where we want to get with advocacy.
00:19:22 Deena:
And I’ll add to that. There’s a formal storytelling aspect. So nurturing customers, developing relationships with customers, you know, so that essentially. Go through the process with you to get approval for a public reference public case study. So there’s that aspect of advocacy and storytelling, but further to Liz’s point, there’s the storytelling that happens outside of your formal case.
And those are the impactful stories that happen at networking events at industry events. When someone posts on LinkedIn that, you know, they need, we’ll just stick with marketing automation, they need a marketing automation tool. That’s where the, external storytelling, with advocacy comes into.
Hopefully you’ve had some sort of, moment or, engagement with your customer where they attach their brand to yours. and they’re going to retell that story because in telling that story, they’re not just sharing the good news about you. You’re the vendor. They’re also in that moment sharing the good news about themselves and the good news about their relationship with you.
00:20:36 Sam:
That’s so true. And it’s, it’s almost, it’s like, that’s the holy grail, right? That, you know, word of mouth, that word of mouth marketing, that, you know, you, you can’t track it. It’s sorta like in the dark, but, you know, it, it, it drives the, you know, the biggest, biggest results.
00:20:52 Liz:
It’s funny that you said word of mouth marketing, Sam. Cause I was listening to Indiana. I was like, well, good gracious. Are we just, are we just back? The marketing, which is not a new concept that’s been
00:21:03 Deena:
It’s not a new concept, but I think in advocacy, it’s intentional.
00:21:06 Liz:
Yes. And I think that’s what it is. It’s you’re not leaving to chance. Oh, well, I hope they just have such a great
00:21:11 Deena:
Right?
00:21:12 Liz:
Want to then organically go share their story.
Yes. We want them to organically go share their story. but We want, we want to lead them to that point of execution and we want to create the experiences intentionally that lead to that shared story.
00:21:30 Sam:
Absolutely. and, so if I’m a if I’m a marketer, I’m marketing leader, customer marketer. Who’s, who’s listening to this, you know, and, and I’m like, this is great, you know, where do I start? Right. Like, can you share a little bit, you know, around, you know, how, how do, how do, I get started if I want it? Maybe I feel like, you know, my company, maybe we’re, I feel like we’re a little behind or just, we need to like kickstart our, you know, our customer stories, our overall advocacy program. Yeah. How do you think about like getting started and, and setting a strategy and, does it change a little bit based on of course, like the size of the company, of course, in the resources, available, but either way it’s like, you know, H how do you think about like, that really kicking it off and, and setting that, that strategy.
00:22:20 Deena:
It always starts with talking to the customer. Always, no matter how much you think you know about your customer, what assumptions you have, what prior interactions you have with your customer. When you’re starting to think about being intentional with an advocacy strategy or customer engagement strategy, you need to go out to your customer.
We recommend doing that at two levels, one being a broad survey, where you’re not just asking, you know, what, how likely are you to recommend us you’re really probing so that you can understand what would be the value that your customer would need to get, from any sort of advocacy related interaction with you?
How, how into gamification. Are they, it does your audience, you know, get turned on by rewards. so there’s the broad survey and then also just one-to-one find your friendly customers and ask for half an hour on their calendar and probe a bit, really build out that picture of who your customers really are.
So not just a persona on a piece of paper about who your customers really. what would they really see valuable, from their interactions with you? You know, like we really advocate for moving away from really kind of stale, overuse value propositions, inactive advocacy, like network with your peers, share the good news about our brand, get prizes, right?
Like, I mean, they’re just used over and over and over again. But really it’s, it’s just, it’s superficial. Right? Understand who your customers are, understand what the value really is, and then start to build out, your, your strategy from a data informed perspective, right from the.
00:24:08 Liz:
Yeah, as we see that evolution of the practice and it becoming more prominent, like what Deena said, it’s so important, you know, how can you understand how to motivate your, customers, if you don’t understand what they. You don’t understand what they need and yet yeah. They want a great product. So, I mean, that’s where you start.
If you don’t have a great product, it’s going to be very hard to get anyone to advocate for you. But once you’re past that, what is it beyond that, that you, as an organization can help that person? what can you do to bring them value as a vendor? You’re you are just a vendor, you are a vendor. So what is the gap that you can possibly bring?
I always like to call this, you know, what’s. no excuse reason that someone would want to join a program with. What is that if you’re not sure what’s that no brainer reason, then you may need to go back to the drawing board to understand, you know, what is it that I can offer as a vendor that no, they can’t get anywhere else or they can somehow get better than.Anywhere else.
And that’s a very important question to answer. and I think for people to think through as the amount of communities and programs and whatnot just continues to expand.
There are so many options. So what is your key value proposition that is unique to just you.
00:25:32 Sam:
Wow. Yeah. Ton of good stuff there. And that’s making, making me reevaluate our then thinking about our kind of customer advocacy, you know, initiatives right now. And, and I say initiatives cause even, you know, with us, you know, obviously we’re, we’re a startup company and such, I feel like we. I would hesitate to call what we do a program because it’s just not, you know, that fleshed out or a start-up, you know, no one, no single person is like in charge of that.
But I’m curious, like, is, is that just, you know, taking companies, like, like us, for example, like, is that okay for a startup? You know, is it like, is it sort of like a progress, not perfection thing? And like, you know, is it one of the things where it’s like, you can do customer advocacy? Without an advocacy program, but you know, the goal is to get to a program, I guess.
How do you sort of think about that for, I guess, especially for smaller companies who like, I get it, I want to do it. I don’t, the idea of a program is intimidating. Maybe.
00:26:35 Liz:
Absolutely. So a couple of thoughts on that one. We will always say that even before a program, there is a mindset, you know, we call it the advocacy mindset. and so if your, the culture of your organization is set around seeing and looking for opportunities to play into the needs and desires of your customers to create those relationship.
And to bring forth those stories, you can already do advocacy initiatives, right? So instilling that mindset and that culture in your organization is a key part of it. And that’s something you can start today. But then secondly, you know, can we get started if we don’t have a major formal program? Yes, absolutely.
And we also see that, as a part of even thinking about advocacy to dot O you know, beyond formal programs, what is there now, now that the. Area has expanded. This practice has expanded. What is there beyond just formal programs? What about all the people who aren’t even ready to join a formal program?
So whether it’s just because you don’t have it, or because there’s a whole bunch of customers who aren’t interested in, in other login and other membership, how are you going to reach those? Perspective advocates who may not think of themselves even as advocates, but are still, more than willing as you know, enthusiastic friends of your organization.
We call them friendlies to go ahead and do something that they find valuable in that moment or worthwhile. So one of the things we like to help clients think through is, you know, where along the customer journey, where can you align advocacy naturally along the customer journey. When is an appropriate time to ask for a review, not just appropriate, but opportunity.
Like it makes sense in the customer’s mind that they are being asked for review at this time, or there is some sort of, you know, give and take that makes sense in their mind. Oh yes. I just got a lot of value. So it makes sense that I would want to give value back because that’s how we are wired as human beings.
When we receive value, we feel the need to, to give value as well. So it is very. So it’s interesting Sam, cause your question might be like, oh, like what’s for a less mature organization. What can I do? But what we see is a lot of the mature organizations have been focused on programs and less so on the alignment of advocacy to that customer journey.
And we really advocate for. thinking through that customer journey and building the advocacy journey in alignment with that. And so you can create a simple process around a milestone moment that will get you some of those early results help you identify who some people, where some people are at in their advocacy journey with you and allow you to start building some key places to build that, either build that relationship or to Colson.
Great outcomes that are valuable to both you and hopefully the customer as well. I’m sure Dena has more to add.
00:29:50 Deena:
Well, you know, I just, I love that, that you started off their lives with the advocacy mindset, because that really is something that anyone can do. It’s just about getting people together and making sure that you’re aligning. What your mission is and what your, what your desired experience for your customers is and how you all work together towards that.
I mean, at just a very basic level, if people are tuned in, if you’re all reading from the same page of the same book, you know, why not just empower your CSMs, give each of your CSMs a little slush fund for just surprise and delight at their discretion. Right? That’s not a lot of barriers, not a lot of boundaries.
But just starting to lay the foundation for, a different level of customer engagement and experience. So you can start really small.
Hey, I mean, I started with the spreadsheet, so you can, you can start just with what you’ve got. And, and as Liz had figured out who those customers are, who might already be on that path with you, and then start to, nurture, nurture them and go for the right ask at the right time.
00:30:58 Sam:
I love that. And, and yeah, speaking of, you know, starting with a spreadsheet to the, to the first point that we were talking about, you know, it’s, like you said, it’s about the principles, you know, you know, and the best practices and the tools are sort of it’s like agnostic, right? as long as you have that in place, and obviously that’s, you know, what both of you, you help, you know, new clients with and, I’d also like note and speaking of like advocacy 1.0 versus 2.0 Liz, you mentioned sort of like the buyer journey. I would put forward I’d pause it. That, that could be another, you know, big hallmark between maybe Agnes advocacy, 1.0 and 2.0 is like, you know, more of like a full buyer journey approach to. Customer content creation and dissemination. Whereas, I mean, I feel like it used to be sort of like, at least for, content.
You know, sharing it, it was like, okay, like the buyer is like almost over the finish line. Let’s, let’s hit them with the best, like customer case studies and video testimonials at that point to push them over the line. Whereas like, what, what I’m seeing and you know, is like now is it’s like, buyers want to self consume, you know, content from other customers throughout the entire buyer journey, and they want it to kind of self.
And they want to consume different things based on their, you know, stage. It’s not like the one size fits all kind of like monolithic kind of case study approach that maybe, you know, we used to see and one data, right.
00:32:30 Deena:
Yeah, and I think there’s also then. Resale, advocacy piece where any interaction that, that prospect is happening with your company, your content, your people, the person that you call up for that reference, you know, as you, as the, as the deal is really getting close to the finish line, all of those interactions have the potential to build advocacy before that deal is even.
In a way when you’re bringing in a reference to speak to that prospect, close to the finish line, you’re showing them what it’s like to be an advocate for the company, because your references performing an act of advocacy when they’re interacting with your salespeople, what does that you like? what, aspects of nurture, are built into that experience with the sales person?
So, yeah, I mean, we totally believe. I’ll start it’s from those, you know, early touch points with the business. And what we do with them, is often overlooked. We don’t really consider the full scope of the customer experience until, they signed on the dotted.
00:33:37 Liz:
But to your point, when I think you’re saying Sam is. Even like the type of content that’s used in that buyer journey is likely, shifting there is that the, the typical, you know, 1, 2, 3, and, you know, they get to the very close line and then got to do a reference. They got to do a one-to-one reference call.
Even some of that is changing, right. Because how we perceive. Authenticity and trustworthiness is changing. And so anything almost sometimes coming from a vendor, even a one-to-one reference, we’re kind of skeptical, right? Because we’re like, we know you picked that reference. So obviously they’re not going to say something terrible about you.
Even how we coach our references. This is a big debate in some places, right? Should we ask people for five star reviews, you know, should we ask sales references to, you know, please share this, this and this and make sure that this comes out and whatnot. Yeah, it is so tempting, but I do think we, as buyers are becoming so savvy that we, we almost distrust now too much positive reaction.
I am a weird person. I’ve noticed, like, even when I’m going to go choose a book, I read through so many reviews. I am like very in tune with what other people. Feel about this was this worth their time. And if I just see a ton of like five stars after five stars is I’m a very skeptical mindset. My skeptical mindset says, Hmm.
I wonder if the author gave away like a ton of books, in exchange for some reviews. And can we really are, are trying to sniff. Any scent of inauthenticity and, and, you know, we want to make our own decisions and we don’t want to be manipulated into thinking this or that. So where the practice is going, as far as storytelling, like how we get customers to tell our story, I think we’re going to have to put some thought into that, right?
Because it’s not going to be enough just to get case studies or even reviews as reviews. You know, reviews are really hot right now. I mean, there’s a point in anything where they lose their power, right? If when you have too much, inundation of something, you, you, it’s going to lose some of its power. So reviews and one-to-one references and webinars.
We’re already seeing webinars. Come start to come down. All of these typical forms of content that we’re used to generating with the support of our customers. I do think we’re going to have to start thinking more and more sadly, how do we let customers tell their stories and how do we get more and more out of it probably as vendors, because any sniff of the vendor relationship can, can bring some murkiness to that water.
So I don’t have any answers today on like what all the different types of content are going to be. But I do think you’re right in the sense of that’s going to have to, go through some innovation as well. And that’s great for customer advocacy. Professionals, because that’s going to be a problem that we can help solve.
00:36:40 Deena:
Well, thanks for answering the question that I didn’t answer Liz.
00:36:44 Liz:
No, I think you’ve answered part of it. I wasn’t exactly sure what Sam was asking. I it’s like a combination of what both of us answer.
00:36:53 Deena:
That’s not my answer.
00:36:58 Sam:
Yeah, and I love both of those answers and I mean, I’m, maybe I’m a little bias, but I also feel like that’s where, you know, video kinda, you know, you can’t talk about authenticity and, content without, you know, mentioning video. Right. And, I think, you know, to a lesser extent audio, but, but I totally agree, like.
When I go on Amazon, it’s the re the Amazon reviews are almost almost pointless because what product on Amazon doesn’t have Like 4.5 star reviews. Like it’s just, you know, so to me, that in, and, and I’m curious, what, both of you think about this is like, is that where, you know, in the future, is that where we see.
You know, and it’s not a cut and dried answer, but like, is that where we see more video? Because like, you can get people’s tone and you can kind of read their facial expressions and you can just, on, on, you know, video testimonials, video customer videos, or is it also that, you know, and I’m sure it’s both, it’s like the new mediums and new formats of, text.
If we’re going to keep doing texts half their kind of evolve.
00:38:02 Deena:
Yeah, I think what’s, what’s evolving with video in particular sound. Just the full scope of, the types of video reference material that we’re seeing out there, you know, from kind of the big production on site with a crew approach to a fully remote approach, to almost more of kind of like, a news feed kind of stuff.
Approach and each of those types of video, I think play a very distinct role, for different buyers, different markets at different points in their, in their cycle and each, to Liz’s point each, instills or evokes, a different level of trustworthiness. when thought of together as a suite of video interactions, I think they’re most.
00:38:53 Liz:
I do think it is novelty too, right? Like, written word has been around for like the beginning of time. And video is still pretty in a pretty new medium, like, and it’s still like the, the art of video is still evolving in my mind. A lot of people are still very uncomfortable with it, you know, we all right.
To some extent, But I think we’re going to see a huge shift. As people have been on all these remote meetings, they are now getting used to seeing themselves on camera. Continually painful as it is, but there is going to be some level of familiarity with video that just did not exist two years ago.
And so it will be interesting to see how the adoption rate of video and, and now, like if we’re to bring it back to advocacy, you know, will you have more customers willing to participate in. Video opportunities, whether they are formal, you know, it’s all still a great thing to have yourself in a formal, beautifully produced a video it’s like seeing yourself in a movie to some extent, know it’s kind of like fulfilling some kind of fantasy by the way, intrinsic motivator, but there’s also this idea of.
You know, I, I, maybe I’m just comfortable putting out ad hoc content now that I, I wouldn’t have been willing to do before. And so how do we tap into this moment in time when video is becoming more acceptable? Not it’s always been acceptable. It’s always been quite stunning, but it’s more. Acceptable. Like I’m willing, I’m willing to put myself out there knowing that, you know, just like things on the internet videos, you know, they get passed around and they can live forever.
So, but, but people just have a greater comfort level in it. And, and people are really receptive right now. I think right now it’s a good really opportune time for video because you’re on that cusp right. Where it’s still.
Something that catches your eye, that you stopped for in a newsfeed that you’re willing to kind of click that button and invest.
But we’re not to the point of saturation where, oh my gosh, everyone is doing a video on every post. Right. It’ll be, it’ll be really interesting again, to see how, how that goes and, and where video match rates to in the near future.
00:41:12 Sam:
Such a good point. And, before we close it out, what, what else, what haven’t I asked any other tips or, you know, perspective that either of you would share with like to share with the audience of, you know, marketers, marketing leaders who. who want to kinda, you know, do more when it comes to customer advocacy and customer story.
00:41:35 Deena:
I think for practitioners now is the time there has never been a better time to be a customer focused customer obsessed marketer. And if this is your cup of tea, if you want to really build a career in this space, this is the. And you’re going to make moves, by positioning yourself as a strategist, you know, not a, not a program manager, a strategist aligned to the strategic priorities of the organization, talking to talk, understanding to C suite and, and moving your way through the, the organization.
This is the time to get.
00:42:18 Liz:
And that’s a good one. and then one tip we often like to speak to is. customer loyalty programs and VDC have been around for a long time. There’s nothing really new about that. That’s been around since the late 18 hundreds, that is a practice that has evolved and, and iterated itself and has a really strong hold.
Now, especially since the eighties and in, on, you know, shout out to blockbuster for making it exciting to be part of a loyalty program, but you know, they are not the same. By any means this is very. Relationships that happen between B2B and B2C, but there are so many great lessons to learn from B2C. And, you know, as, as you watch VTC evolve in personalization and scale and relevance, those are things you can look at your experience as a.
Or as a consumer and say, why do I, why do I keep coming back to this loyalty program? Why do I use this app on a regular basis? Oh, because it’s so freaking easy. It makes sense. It doesn’t make sense not to. So, you know, there are some lessons to be learned and brought over to the B2B side, which is a less mature practice right now.
As Deena will often say, put yourself in the shoes of your customer, as a consumer, or as someone who interacts with vendors and brands all the time. What really makes sense? Why would you be a part of something like this? What would be a value to you? If you can walk a mile in their shoes, you’re a bound to create a much more engaging program with longevity.
We see a lot of people are launching programs, but people’s programs are dying as well. You need to have the underlying strategy of why would someone do this? Why would someone be here? What are the barriers that we unthoughtfully put in place that keep people from continuing their advocacy journey with an organization?
00:44:28 Sam:
I love that.
I think it’s the perfect “bow” to put on this, and to tie it all together.
So, last but not least, Deena, Liz, where can people who want to learn more about you connect with both of you, and connect with Captivate?
What’s the best way to do that?
00:44:46 Liz:
You can now go to our newly revamped website. That would be www.theCaptivateCollective.com.
I think Deena was also about to say LinkedIn is where we do a lot of our interaction.
So. Following Captivate on LinkedIn is one of the best ways just to keep. We we are trying so hard to keep new content coming all of the time, to really get practitioners in this space thinking like thinking, and really being the pioneers of that advocacy 2.0 that we see coming upon us.
So, LinkedIn is definitely a great way to, connect.
00:45:34 Sam:
Amazing.
Well, this has been a blast. I’m sure we’ll have to do an episode 2, sometime.
Thank you, Deena. Thank you, Liz. I appreciate you both jumping on here today.
00:45:45 Deena:
Thanks for having us, Sam.
00:45:47 Liz:
Yeah, absolutely, Sam. Always a pleasure.
00:45:50 Sam:
Alright folks. That was a fantastic episode with Deena and Liz.
Some of the things that we really hit on were the right best practices. The right strategy right from the beginning. Advocacy 1.0 versus 2.0, and their differences. How remote work has changed things, in particular the familiarity and willingness to do more video, starting with talking to the customer. If you’re starting your program, go out there and talk to customers. What would the value that you would need to get out of that interaction be? What’s your no-brainer reason why someone would participate in your program? That two way exchange of value.
Last but not least, advocacy is a mindset. It’s not a binary yes or no. It’s a mindset, and you can start today. No matter where you are, you can instill that mindset into the culture of your company.
As always, this is the State of Customer Storytelling podcast. I’m Sam Shepler from Testimonial Hero. If you have anyone that you’d love to hear on the podcast, shoot me an email.
My email is sam@testimonialhero.com. I’d love to hear from you.
Until the next episode, have a fantastic time, and good luck on all of your advocacy initiatives and programs.
Cache Walker is the Senior Customer Advocacy Manager at Netskope, a leader in the secure access service edge space of cybersecurity. Cache builds and manages customer engagement-driven marketing and business programs. He is skilled at coming up with new and innovative ways to make customers’ experiences better, while achieving the desired business outcome.
I talk with Cache about the current wave of customer advocacy. We talk about building stories around customers’ experiences, and how companies can help their customers achieve their goals. We also talk about how to introduce customer storytelling in your company, why customer videos are so beneficial, and much more.
Cache earned his bachelor’s degree in international relations and affairs from the University of Arkansas. Before working at Netskope, Cache worked for companies such as Oracle, Ivanati, and Dealertrack.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Recent changes in consumer advocacy, and how to leverage those changes
- The key ingredient for success in the current consumer advocacy shift
- The best time to use customer stories in your business
- Deciding which customers you should use in your video testimonials
Links & Resources
- Netskope
- Ivanti
- Oracle
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Cache Walker’s Links
- Cache Walker
- Follow Cache on Twitter
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Cache:
If you’re trying to figure out how customer reviews matter, start sharing them across your teams. There’s no better way to juice momentum for building a program, but there’s also no better way to refine what you’re producing than to share with your team.
All you’re doing along the way is making your company more customer-centric.
00:00:26 Sam:
Alright, folks. Welcome to another episode of the State of Customer Storytelling. My guest today is Cache Walker. Cache is the Senior Customer Advocacy Manager at Netskope, a leader in the secure access service edge space of cybersecurity.
Previously, Cache drove customer advocacy at Ivanti and Oracle. For the past eight years he’s been focused on, and living in, the confluence of building impactful approaches to support key business initiatives that utilize customers to drive those results.
Cache, welcome to the show.
00:01:09 Cache:
Thanks, Sam. With that intro, I feel tired. Like I’ve been running for too long. It’s great to be with you, too.
00:01:20 Sam:
Absolutely. And yeah, in many ways, customer advocacy is, it’s an old, but also new, space.
You were kind of at the forefront, and in many ways you’ve been doing it, and maybe we start with talking about that. Customer advocacy is nothing new, but in some ways it’s like a Renaissance right now.
What, in your opinion, what is customer advocacy all about, and why does it matter?
00:01:50 Cache:
I think you’re exactly right. I almost call it customer advocacy 2.0 is what we’re experiencing right now. Six, seven years ago we saw this first wave of customer advocacy. Folks get engaged, we engage with them, and we knew that engagement was important. We weren’t sure sometimes why, or how to go about it, and how to handle that.
So, you started seeing things like an increase in case studies, or I think a lot of the customer reviews, especially in the B2B tech space, really started to pop up at that phase.
It’s something that I’ve been learning kind of just in a new role, but also I always try to reinvent myself as I think we are seeing peopl’s attention spans have changed.
I think one of the strangest metrics I’ve ever gotten out of doing customer advocacy is, one of my highest engagement rates for engaging with customers was Friday afternoons. That goes counter digital marketing across the board, right?
What does that tell us? Well, it tells us that people wanted to do some of the more engagement-based customer advocacy things at the first wave of this thing that we’ve been doing on Fridays. They probably were at a desk, probably tired from the week, needed to do something, wanted to do something, but they weren’t going to start a new project. They weren’t going to kick something off, brand new.
So, you know, sometimes, it’s like, “Hey, we’ll give them feedback. Hey, we’ll do a customer review.” I think that’s changed post 2020. I think we’ve gotta be more deliberate and more value-driven in how we engage with our customers. Because a lot of folks are still at home and nobody has a Friday afternoon free.
They’re working at the computer. They’ve got a dog to take on walks. Maybe some kids that they’re getting called to take control of for the afternoon, or a dishwasher to unload.
So, there’s not that same space that needs to be filled by, by engagement. There’s still space for value, but we’ve got to figure this out and reinvent how we go after them, because it’s new.
00:04:08 Sam:
Yeah, so true in, I know, I know. I feel that way,
00:04:12 Cache:
Opportunity to go
00:04:13 Sam:
Just have a four month old at the moment, so yeah. Definitely, definitely feel that. And it sounds like, You mentioned the kind of driving value in like kind of a, two way I think that’s
00:04:24 Cache:
Are very
00:04:25 Sam:
That we all
00:04:26 Cache:
Which means we don’t have
00:04:28 Sam:
You know, as customer marketers, as advocate, marketers, just like making that, that advocacy program, a two-way exchange of value sometimes it’s easier said than done.
Do you have any kind of thoughts on that or tips you could share? Like what have you learned about Making advocacy like a two way exchange of value over the year.
00:04:48 Cache:
Yeah, that’s a great it’s. It’s really tricky. I think the, the one main takeaway I’ve have is it starts with. Right. Like, if you’re sincere with your customers about, Hey, we want this story to be about you, you can make that statement. And it only goes as far as, as you are really meaning it. Right? Like if, if the case study comes out and it’s, you know, it’s nothing about like some of the recent successes, but it’s all about the technical implementation of your product.
Not a very sincere engagement with that customer. And I think it even gets as simple as, you know, when you tell them something you follow through on it, when you tell them, Hey, this is going to be a, a 45 minute
00:05:31 Cache:
Okay customer
00:05:32 Cache:
Then. and I think, I think that’s been the one key because I think there’s always unique challenges.
Every customer is unique. their approval
00:05:42 Cache:
We’re going it in a
00:05:43 Cache:
Their, why for why they want to do something is unique. I think as long as you lead with sincerity, you’ll get to that value for them and it have better outcomes.
00:05:53 Sam:
It’s so true. And, you know, it’s, it’s kind of like that common sense thing, but it still bears mentioning. Cause like we can all get caught up in this sort of the strategy and the tactics and you know, the pressure to achieve results. And so that that’s no videos a reviews kind of, you know, customer stories and obviously, you know, there’s, there’s kind of like the overarching umbrella of cusp of customer advocacy, which, you know, might include, you know, several other things Where do you see kind of customer stories, you know, specifically customer stories and customer content kind of fitting into that advocacy number.
00:06:31 Cache:
Yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s one of the primary. I think like maybe I think a lot of folks they get tasked with, you know, customer advocacy looks like, it looks like the content, the story piece, it looks
00:06:42 Cache:
One
00:06:44 Cache:
It looks like maybe groups, you know, like kind of advisory boards
00:06:49 Cache:
Where
00:06:50 Cache:
Some of those things, some folks might be
00:06:53 Cache:
Those
00:06:53 Cache:
But I think one thing that’s, that’s pretty universal from what I’ve seen is, is that need for stories. And, and like you said, there are, there are various ways of getting
00:07:04 Cache:
For
00:07:04 Cache:
I think all of them are important. That’s the trick is, is that you can’t just do one,
00:07:10 Cache:
I that I’m hearing those
00:07:12 Cache:
To get coverage across the board.
I have my preferences, but I think a lot of it goes back to your business. You’ve got to see what matters to your business and it ebbs and flows. I mean, if you’ve got a, if you’ve got an analyst need and some reports coming out that if your, your company plays really highly, it’s going to be very beneficial.
I mean, reviews become a high priority where in general you would see a review being less valuable than getting a customer on video. So I think, I think you’ve got to go where the business priorities go and you’ve got to, you’ve got to, always be mapped to those. And I think that goes not just with your stories, but with your program in general Um your program is only as good as the business impact impacts it drives, and I think it has to be unique to your business. And I think it has to be always aligned to, to your current or future business goals.
00:08:07 Sam:
That’s such a good point. So it sounds like, you know, it all has to, when you go about setting a strategy, you know, that’s what you would, you knew. We want to figure that out. you know, in the beginning, right? Like what is the, what, what, what are the priorities, what are the key strategic initiatives, you know, and then, and then how do you in customer customer storytelling needs to that. Is that, is that.
00:08:28 Cache:
Yeah. And I think, I think when you look at it, the.
00:08:31 Sam:
As, okay
00:08:32 Cache:
The better program in new, more established, you get that you’ve built, you can say, you know what, we’re going to pull this
00:08:37 Sam:
Thing I
00:08:38 Cache:
During this quarter, because it’s what it needs to hit the, next one. Or we’ve got to do these
00:08:43 Sam:
Have
00:08:44 Cache:
It doesn’t make the job any easier.
Honestly, it might make it harder, but it’s always going to keep things fresh. The thing I like about it, let’s say you do a push for customer stories. You get, you get a couple in the pipeline and then you, you need to pivot and prioritize reviews for a quarter or
00:09:00 Cache:
And they’re good routes
00:09:02 Cache:
Know, your next round or your next push for stories.
I hope that each time I’ve
00:09:07 Cache:
Know Um of experience
00:09:12 Cache:
I know our company has evolved. And so I hope that that keeps those stories fresh and keeps challenging me to do something new. It’s just not a rinse and repeat,
00:09:22 Sam:
Point. And, it’s, it’s exactly why it’s like, you can’t just forget about it. Cause like, you know, strategies, strategy does not stay. You know stuck in or frozen and that therefore neither can, can that kind of the
00:09:34 Cache:
Then marketers don’t
00:09:37 Sam:
I think, you know, what about like identifying, you know, which, which customers, to actually ask, right. I think there’s, that’s something it’s, you know it really, I think it’s a unique challenge in in different companies, but I know some some marketers they’re perhaps like, you know, okay, I want to do. Yeah, we need to do customer stories. I have a good feeling for you know, the, our strategic initiatives.
So I kinda know who I want to get, but I actually don’t know who it’s like Maybe the data is siloed over in different success or in sales. I mean, I know this depends so much on like the technology stack that people use and the kind of the culture of the organization but do you have any tips on kind of like actually identifying like who to reach out to to make that ask to, participate in a customer story?
00:10:30 Cache:
Might be the trickiest part of all of this. because data on these things is, is not something that I think we
00:10:37 Cache:
Have
00:10:37 Cache:
Level to say like this customer has a great story. there’s indicators, there’s indicators that you can follow. If you do, let’s say, go through, go through your customer reviews.
If you do have a decent amount of customer use, look for leads, right? You’ve got to, you’ve got to handle your story pipeline the same way you look at. Marketing, create a lead funnel. No. Where you can get these leads it’s yes. Your, your client advisory boards, your executive advisory boards. Great, great leads, right.
You’re probably going to get more likely to get a
00:11:07 Cache:
Want
00:11:08 Cache:
That. That doesn’t mean they have a great
00:11:10 Cache:
Same
00:11:10 Cache:
Time. So then you also want other lead sources that are, that are potentially going to bring you stories. Maybe it’s some of your beta tester group, maybe
00:11:21 Cache:
Know
00:11:21 Cache:
Of, you know, your, your lower tiered customers.
A lot of times smaller customers do really innovative things with your product. That sometimes the enterprises they don’t. So I think you need to kind of build it like a, a lead funnel and be capturing those folks
00:11:38 Cache:
Can’t
00:11:39 Cache:
Different, stages and from different sources, because
00:11:42 Cache:
So all have their place
00:11:43 Cache:
Creates new stories.
If you’re only getting your sources, from cells, You’re going to get a lot of implementation stories. Those are great, but they only go so far. So you’ve got to vary your lead sources.
00:11:56 Sam:
Yeah, that’s, that’s such a, such a great point and it is like, sort of. You know, obviously we want to make it all in all a two-way exchange of value, but like you said, it’s not too dissimilar from like a sales process. You’re just kind of selling your customers on the the value. and hopefully it’s a two-way exchange of value of participating in those stories. how about approvals? Cause that’s, I think that’s another thing people, you know, specifically like legal approvals, whether it’s like before, or, you know, after reviewing things, I think. That’s something that a lot of people, you know, kind of have to navigate it and frankly is, can be really hard at when you’re trying to figure And was do you have any tips for people who are like, just feeling maybe overwhelmed or kind of bide the diff the fact of like, okay, like I have this customer, but like, I know it’s going to be crazy to approve anything they say or you know,
00:12:48 Cache:
Yeah,
I learned this pretty early in my journey. I had a really, really great story. I was like so excited about it and it just got blown to shreds by legal. And I was just like, I remember sitting there just like shell shocked, thinking like, well, how could this happen? you, you live in, you learn, right?
And I think there should probably be like a, a support group spun up for
00:13:11 Cache:
To that as
00:13:12 Cache:
It is a difficult process and it is sometimes a very long process and other folks don’t understand, right. If they haven’t chased approvals on these, they just don’t get it. They’re like, why can’t we get our biggest customer with the sexiest logo to go on record? And you’re sitting
00:13:28 Sam:
I think I
00:13:29 Cache:
I would say get get the get the. company um and not just the customer, right? Like, so if you’re, if you’re working through it or you’re working with a, a CSO get their stakeholders involved early, talk to them about what type of story will get approved
What, what does the end product need
00:13:50 Sam:
How and
00:13:52 Cache:
To be that exchange of value? both for them personally and for their business. And then. Consistently with their teams to, have them involved. I mean, how many I asked RPR person a couple months ago, I said, has anybody ever came to you and said, Hey, would you sit through this interview process with me to help me to produce the story that’s best
00:14:16 Cache:
Clearer that it’s a marketing
00:14:17 Cache:
That. Not something I
00:14:19 Cache:
A video
00:14:20 Cache:
With. and I think that’s do better is get their right stakeholders involved. Just what you’re doing is you’re lowering the barrier or lowering the hurdle that you’re going to have to, to eventually jump.
And yes, you will eventually have to leap over, but you’re trying to make that less of a step as possible in the future And I think if you’ve crafted the story, so that it’s something that. They’re motivated to share. And that is in line with their brand that is in line with things that they’ve produced in the past. A lot of times you can figure out what, what can be produced by seeing what else have they done, and doing those kinds of things makes it easier, but it’s, it’s gonna, it’s gonna still remain challenging.
But those are some of the better approaches I think
00:15:07 Sam:
Yeah, that’s, such a good point, like in, you know, kind of, collaborative approach. Right. you know, figuring out, you know, working with them early, rather than at the end, you know, kind of coming in and helping, you know, that it kind of, you know all works out Right. you know, again, simple, but, but so. of a thing that is very easy to forget, you know? and then in terms of I guess you mentioned customer advocacy kind of advocacy 2.0 if you on, I’m curious what, what other, you know, if we were going to kind of outline if, maybe draw a distinction between advocacy 1.0 and advocacy 2.0, you know, what are the big, you know hallmark So. advocacy 2.0 versus advocacy, kind of 1.0, and I’ll actually start by contributing one. I think reference calls we’re seeing in advocacy. 1.0, was very referenced called, driven and adversely 2.0, we’re certainly not, you know, reference calls are not going away completely, but we’re seeing, a lot of reference need for reference calls being deflected by better.
Customer content, better customer stories, whether it’s, you know, video often video. And, so I’ll pause there though. I’d love to hear. Yeah. Where do you see those kind of distinctions between customer
00:16:23 Cache:
How often do they actually
00:16:25 Sam:
Dam
00:16:26 Cache:
Just to your point, to build off of that it’s customer advocacy, 2.0, now that I sit here and think about it, it’s probably
00:16:34 Cache:
I want them to
00:16:35 Cache:
By that,
00:16:35 Cache:
Then Cool
00:16:37 Cache:
Your advocacy asks need to be more ironed out. They need to be more in line with where the customer’s at in their process, but
00:16:45 Cache:
And is you’ve goes to my days at super
00:16:50 Cache:
Deflect the better your program because you’re saving the time. and I think we have to look at it as how much time are we asking from these advocates? What are we, what are we giving them an exchange? Because I think if I, if I really look at it from a broad view, time is the biggest limit.
00:17:08 Cache:
Like I’m
00:17:09 Cache:
We’re at, and
00:17:10 Cache:
Look for
00:17:11 Cache:
And, and even in, even in appreciation things, right? Like I’m not sure gift cards go
00:17:17 Cache:
On me
00:17:18 Cache:
I’m not sure if somebody gets a $10, you know, card to their favorite joint to grab a drink or to put towards their next online purchase
I don’t, I don’t know if those move the needle in the
00:17:31 Sam:
Of like common
00:17:32 Cache:
Because I think
00:17:34 Sam:
Point Right
00:17:35 Cache:
And our customers we’ve put more of a premium on our time
00:17:40 Sam:
Yeah, that’s, it’s such a, such a good point. And so it sounds like, you know, there’s more of an emphasis in. you know, maybe doing sometimes a slightly more, you know, a one-time upfront investment, but like a more scalable, thing long-term right. Is that, is that fair to say, like,
00:18:02 Cache:
Yeah, I think that’s, I think that’s, hitting it right on the right on the head. I think you’ve got to get more out of everything you do with them. If they do a customer review, that’s awesome. It’s going to get you this. You better develop a template for those reviews So you can feature them on your website.
You better be sharing those reviews in social. You better be gleaning those reviews for
00:18:21 Sam:
Leader listened to
00:18:22 Cache:
Don’t throw away any of the value they’ve given you maximize it. and, and if you do a video interview, transcript it, turn it into written quotes, even as simple as when you do have a customer quote, log it, have a source of truth, have a database that you’re going back to that you’re able to say like, Hey, here’s this quote,
Hey, here’s this case study don’t lose any of it. you just, you can’t afford to.
00:18:47 Sam:
Yeah, that that’s so true. And you mentioned, video reviews, case studies, I’m share there about, you know, the different sort of the different medium. you know, for customer storytelling, you know, obviously the big three being written case studies third-party reviews, or at least from my perspective and customer videos and maybe, I dunno, analyst reports as well for enterprise companies, but yeah. how do you think about kind of those different mediums and also within the context of like, you know, advocacy 1.0 and advocacy 2.0 and kind of where things are true.
00:19:17 Cache:
Yeah. And I think, I think there’s a whole new opportunity, especially when it comes to video. I remember, I remember back in the
00:19:23 Cache:
You’re that
00:19:24 Cache:
Like, I don’t even know it was like 15 to 20 video trips and I was basically on the road for the entire summer visiting customers. it was a young man’s
00:19:32 Cache:
That first speed
00:19:34 Cache:
Nowadays.
Right. I think with, with people accustomed zoom, to being in front of video, and I think that’s, that’s almost more of it. It’s not necessarily, they’re willing to consume a less produced video because I think they, they probably always were. I think, and you still want your videos to look sharp?
You still want him to be on brand like yes but does everyone facilitate a massive video
00:19:57 Cache:
Promoting me
00:19:58 Cache:
I’m not.
Um that’s probably up to your brand, but I think
00:20:02 Cache:
Into promoting and building their
00:20:05 Cache:
On video has probably gone
00:20:08 Cache:
Because make it in the context of
00:20:10 Cache:
Although I don’t know, they would admit to it they’ll be more comfortable. Right. I remember interviewing a, I mean, this guy was massively, successful. He owned, you know, in this I don’t even know how long ago, eight years ago. he had done, I mean, he owned multiple. I was in automotive, so he owned multiple car dealerships and he was successful across the board. I’m sure he had done advertisements.
I’m sure he had done promotions. they were in a major city. He was completely uncomfortable being in front of a video. I would have never known this before arriving. but it was a hurdle we had to overcome in a
00:20:48 Cache:
An of
00:20:48 Cache:
Way. I think people are more used to seeing themselves starting back at themselves nowadays, via zoom And so I think you can use that to your advantage to some extent. but I think videos have gotta be probably shorter. Right? I think we keep, we keep going that way. I think they’ve got to stand out though. I think, I think the challenge is creativity. You’ve got to make
00:21:10 Cache:
Where again knowing really want which
00:21:12 Cache:
Like a video.
It does no good. If it doesn’t hit on any of the things that it needs. you’ve got to focus on your outputs, right? Like what’s the customer going to get out of this? What’s it going to, what’s it going to do for them in your funnel? What’s it going to, you know, what’s it going to do for your prospects What’s what stages that served up in. and he said, keep more linked than I think the things matter, but
00:21:32 Sam:
Video testimonials content and a couple of things I want to drill down to. They’re like, I think the whole funny point it’s true. It’s like people are, I think, especially from the comfort of their own home, you know, way more, comfortable going out and going on video, just because of of, you know, the, the sort of new normal that we all live in, which which is, which is a great thing.
00:21:53 Cache:
To be
00:21:54 Sam:
Thankfully also. You know, you mentioned zoom, you know, obviously there’s that that’s one way to do it. And there’s also other, other ways to even, you know, do it higher quality, obviously that that’s what we do remotely and, you know, filming through, through iPhones errors, you know, Android devices, which are just crazy that like the quality, like on smartphones
00:22:14 Cache:
Oh I can
00:22:15 Sam:
Is just bananas. it’s not slowing down, right? Like, every, every new phone release we’re getting closer to That like DSLR quality in a smartphone. if you can actually capture that interview from home via smartphone, of course, you know, you have to edit it, and all that, or work with a, someone who who’s going to help you do that. you have like a fidelity that that’s like homepage ready for even like, you know,
00:22:41 Cache:
To thing
00:22:43 Sam:
That is like, I, I agree. I think we’re still gonna see, like, for like a marquee customer, you know, they’re, we’re still gonna see you in your onsite, you know, videography and that’s still what we see, but I think, the whole like remote video is just becoming at an
00:22:58 Cache:
Say anything bad
00:23:00 Sam:
Viral.
00:23:00 Cache:
Yeah. Especially for the interview, right? Like I think like, there’s always, it’s funny because like, when you first start doing these, you’re like, ah, we got to get B roll. we gotta get B roll and that’s always like the afterthought. But like some really snazzy B roll goes a long way. So, I mean, that’s probably the diff the drop-off right.
Of not having somebody in person, is not being able to
00:23:23 Sam:
Curious where you things going the future
00:23:26 Cache:
It’s hard to have a personality when it’s like standing in front of a wall and no
00:23:31 Sam:
Are the
00:23:31 Cache:
No alternating camera angles.
I wonder if we’ll go back though. I wonder, I wonder where we are on the.
00:23:38 Cache:
In terms
00:23:39 Cache:
And, and if we’ll start to go back to people like wanting to see, you know, I think what we’re starting
00:23:44 Cache:
Since Dawn of
00:23:45 Cache:
To go to events, as it becomes safer and safer. I wonder if we’ll see people wanting to consume, a little a little, more, fully produced stuff or, of it.
00:23:58 Sam:
Customer I think it’s a mix. Just like, I think like events, you know, like now it’s like hybrid events, right? And I think with, with the content we’re gonna you know cause there’s always, you know, if you’re going to, if it’s like a customer video on your homepage, you know it does need to be, you know, higher produced whether that’s like a higher produced remoter on the site. And then of course there’s always.
00:24:17 Cache:
A big
00:24:18 Sam:
You know, an opportunity for that more like rough and ready stuff that isn’t, you know, on the homepage, but it’s still, you know, super valuable. I want to circle back on something you said earlier about, kind of just making the video or there, there were really the any medium that the customer content, you know, appropriate and what customers actually want Specifically that what they want at that stage of the buyer journey. Right? Like, you know, it sounds like what you were kind of advocating for. And I would agree is that like, you know, it’s maybe 1.0 is like one size fits all case study and like 2.0 is like, we’re going to actually figure out map the buyer journey, figure out like all this different micro content customer content, but it’s going to change based on like where Okay they’re close to the deal
00:25:05 Cache:
Yeah, I think, I think previously I mean, I know my
00:25:08 Sam:
Whereas now the big shift is the best
00:25:12 Cache:
Like. I mean
00:25:13 Sam:
Are
00:25:14 Cache:
15 minutes long I don’t know how long the videos ended up being right off the top of my head, but it seems like they were long because they captured I think you still like to make the most of the customer’s time, you still capture everything, but you produce it in a different way. Where
00:25:27 Cache:
These trust cues A customer story, I can trust you
00:25:31 Cache:
There. As a, as a piece, they can consume it, allow them to tell you they want more and continue their journey to digest more.
But if that’s all they wanted today, great Give it to them to get that out of. and I think that’s the piece it’s it’s once again, like none
00:25:48 Cache:
A
00:25:49 Cache:
Are overly easy, but I think it’s
00:25:51 Cache:
Them
00:25:51 Cache:
Have to be aiming for.
00:25:53 Sam:
Yeah, it’s, it’s so much more in line with, I think, how all buyers want to kind of consume content today, right. They
00:25:59 Cache:
What I say
00:26:00 Sam:
They want that kind of snackable experience, and kind of self-service, that makes a ton of sense. And, you know, if I’m, if I’m a marketer, who’s listening to this. And I’m like, I love all these ideas that I’m hearing. and I wanna kind of, I feel like I’m not there yet. You know, I want to kind of catch up in terms of my, you know customer advocacy and my customer stories. What advice would you give someone who feels like maybe they’re they’re like a little bit behind or like they, they haven’t just done this. And they want to catch up and get started.
What story programs share with them?
00:26:35 Cache:
So I would experiment internal. and by by that, I mean, if you’re trying to figure out how do customer reviews matter,
00:26:45 Cache:
Place that
00:26:46 Cache:
Teams. Start, start, just publishing them in slack, come up with a channel, throw up your customer reviews, share them with your team. If you, if you’re trying to figure out how do we make these customer videos better?
I’ve got some, I’ve got some customer video. We captured share them with your team. there’s no better way to, I think, to juice momentum for building a program then to get your internal buy-off, but there’s also no better way to refine what you’re producing
00:27:12 Cache:
Killer
00:27:12 Cache:
To share with your team. And all you’re doing along the way is making your company more customer centric.
So experiment internally, like trying to figure out, you know, a new case study template, throw a couple
00:27:24 Sam:
And uh
00:27:25 Cache:
Your I think sometimes we overthink it and we think it’s got to be this big produced, you know, it’s gotta be a change to the website. It’s gotta be front pay it.
Doesn’t throw it up on your internet, throw it in your newsletter. get it in front of us. All you’re going to do is get questions, get feedback, get input from your team, which the collaboration drives the success of your program. And you’re going to be making people understand your customers through a better lens.
The more you do that. So, yeah, I would say experiment internally I think it’s been huge for me. And I think sometimes we get in such a hurry to produce for external that we, we don’t do that.
00:28:05 Sam:
Episode with Cache summers things that really I such such a good point. And, you know, it sounds like, you know, getting feedback from, you know, your even, especially maybe your sales team, right. If they’re using those, those, customer stories in real life situations, you know, if you can ask like, Hey, like, which one of these is working which uh important to points are hitting the most.
And, it just from a pure like type like feedback you know, it seems like. That, that conversation and that, that open dialogue between sales, would be extremely.
00:28:40 Cache:
Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you
00:28:42 Sam:
Want
00:28:43 Cache:
I mean, career-wise, if you can produce what your sales team needs, you’re golden like that, that is a job in
00:28:50 Sam:
That that up frequently
00:28:52 Cache:
So it’s good job security. if you can, if you can get the right sounding boards, and involve them and celebrate them. And what I love to do is, is, you know, like if I do that and I have this really great sales and he helps me come up with this process and I launch it when I launch it, I don’t even talk about what I’ve launched.
I talk about his idea, because that facilitates more
00:29:12 Sam:
Your your third-party reviews
00:29:15 Cache:
Build.
00:29:15 Sam:
I want to shift gears to talk a little bit about kind of cybersecurity as well. within the context of everything we’ve been talking about, you know, there’s there’s of course, you know, interesting paradox, I think, with the cybersecurity industry where like, peer-driven. Shepler stories and our IX, you know, especially valuable, but especially hard to get at the same time, because being in the security industry, privacy concerns and security, risks, concerns, and, Yeah, I guess, you you’ve worked in a number of different industries, but what have you sort of learned there so far and, you know, maybe you can kind of speak to that sort of that, that managing that, that dichotic.
00:29:57 Cache:
Yeah. Two of the last three stops were insecurity and the other one was Oracle. Right. So I haven’t had necessarily the easiest path to do approvals and simplification when doing these things. it definitely is a challenge. I mean, if you don’t acknowledge the challenges there, then you’re being unrealistic with yourself.
The value, like you spoke of the content, his has only increased, I assume that’s for most that’s where most verticals though. I think you just got to go back to, I always go back to like banks, right? Like nobody’s going to do a testimonial for, from a bank and tell you how they, what, which vault they’re using. Right. they’re not gonna, they’re not gonna tell you this new security procedure they implemented as part of their, part of their closing process at the end of the day, that that makes their, their bank safer at night. nobody wants to give you that info. and so what you’ve, what you’ve got to do is you’ve got to talk to them about efficiencies.
You’ve got to talk to them about being a leader. you know, if you go down to the, you go down to that bank and you talk to that bank about new, what you guys are a leader in keeping costs down for your members, but providing the best level of security for their money. that’s a story for them, right?
Like what credit union or what local bank wouldn’t want to be mentioned like that there wouldn’t be able to be, want to tell their customers. Yeah. We’re driving down. We’re keeping our costs down while providing you the most elite level of protection. That’s a great story. and it’s equally a great story for whoever the provider is.
That’s providing that. So I think you’ve got to get to that level that, everybody knows what you’re speaking about, the, that you’re involved in their success, but you make it, you make it matter for them. And I think it kind of goes back to a lot of the other things we’ve hit on. but yeah, it’s, it’s always challenging.
00:31:46 Sam:
I love that such a good point and is relates to like, how do you make the ask? Right. It’s all about. That two-way exchange of value in one of those ways is for sure, you know, shining a light on the, on customers and companies to help them build their, you know, in actually in individual people that are giving the testimonial or the, the video and, you know, helping them build their reputation and their career.
I think that that, that, that can be a lot of the value of, of, participating in these things.
00:32:16 Cache:
Yeah, knowing that is so helpful, right? Knowing like, Hey, this person is, is bright. They are young. You’ll have like things, like they went to MIT, they did this and you’re like, all right, they’re not like you can see it. They’re not going to stay at the level they’re at forever. and then you understand their motivators, but in some of that, you know, going into a call, right?
Like You’ll see it in the lead information or you you’ll discover it along the way. Sometimes I don’t discover that until the discovery process, but I try to have those conversations with the customers so that I understand what can I help you get out of this? beyond your brand, beyond this, you know, what can I help you as a person get out of this?
What, what, why would you say yes to this and how do we make that the end result surpasses your expectations?
00:33:03 Sam:
And do you find that often helping them as an individual kind of build their reputation and their kind of career or, you know, what, what do you kind of see? has, kind of worked.
00:33:17 Cache:
Yeah, you have some that they want to, and then you have some that they’re just doing it because they like your product. They love a lot of times they love their sales person or they love their reps. They feel like they’ve had a great level of partnership. So they want to talk about that. Those are awesome.
Right? Other times you have folks that they really do want to get their name out there. They want to be known for what they’re accomplishing. And so you just, you just have to discover that and then help them hit it. I mean, I always have said my like mark of success is, is if we produce a video, I think video is the easiest one, right.
To say this for, but if we produce a video, would they be proud enough to share it on their linked. Great. Right. Would they be proud enough to share it on their Facebook where nobody knows what they do for their job, but it would make them feel like a rock star even better.
Like that’s how, you know, like the different levels that you’ve hit, like does this matter to them as a professional because it gets their name out of it. Great. Is this something they personally are proud of and excited about even better?
00:34:20 Sam:
I love that that’s such a good tip and, it all comes, I think, yeah, it comes down to, generosity being genuine with what you ask and really making them the hero of the story. Right. Cache has been great. Well, where can, where can people, if, you know, get in touch with you and if they want to connect and learn more or just, don’t have any other questions.
00:34:44 Cache:
Yeah, definitely. If they want to commiserate about some of these challenges, LinkedIn is a great place to track me down. I would say Twitter, but that’s just me complaining about sports, usually. So, I won’t burden anybody with that. But yeah, LinkedIn is a great place because a lot of these things, if I’m working on something, I’m pretty transparent about things.
So, if we’re working on something at Netskope, we’re working to launch a program, you can usually tell what what I’m doing, or what I’m building, because we’ll be talking about it in all sorts of ways. Both with our customers and with colleagues.
00:35:23 Sam:
Amazing. Well, thanks, Cache. I really appreciate it. Thank you for hopping on.
00:35:29 Cache:
I appreciate it. Sam, it’s always good to connect and hear what you guys are up to. AIt’s always fun to talk about these challenges we’re all trying to solve. So, I appreciate you having me on.
00:35:40 Sam:
Alright. Folks, that was Cache Walker. A fantastic episode. So many nuggets in there, a sales funnel approach to getting these stories created. Legal approvals, thinking in advance, they’re working collaboratively, getting in with the right stakeholders early. We talked about customer advocacy 2.0 and contrasting between the classic 1.0 days, and how with 2.0 actually deflecting references with great content. The shifts around time, and the future of advocacy. It’s going to be certainly less about gift cards and more about the most scarce asset that we all have, which is time.
I highly recommend connecting with Cache if you’re in the advocacy space. Awesome guy. Again, this is the State of Customer Storytelling, brought to you by Testimonial Hero.
My name is Sam Shepler, and we look forward to you checking out the next episode.
We publish every week. If you have any other guests that you really want us to feature, my email is sam@testimonialhero.com. Just shoot me a message. We’d love to hear from you.
Russ Somers is the CMO at Lytho. Lytho provides project management and digital asset management tools for marketing teams. Lytho helps marketers organize their projects, feedback, assets, and more in one place. Teams using Lytho spend less time managing tasks, chasing stakeholders, and clicking through folders to chase assets.
In this episode, Russ shares his insights and expertise on marketing. We talk about why customer stories are so important for B2B sales. Russ explains why traditional marketing is being replaced by customer storytelling, what your storytelling must include to have the most impact with customers, where companies who are new to customer storytelling marketing should start, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Three must-have customer story ingredients
- How to find the best customer stories
- The two things that make customer stories more powerful
- How to connect customer stories and case studies
Links & Resources
- TrustRadius
- TrendKite (now part of Cision)
- Invodo
- Kyle Lacy
- Lessonly
- Testimonial Hero
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Russ Somers’ Links
- Russ’ LinkedIn
- Lytho
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Russ:
Every aspect of selling and marketing is storytelling. As a marketer, I have relatively little credibility with my target audience. They know I’m paid to promote things. They’re going to be skeptical of what I say. So, when a third party says it, when a customer says it and says they actually got value and here’s what it did for me, that’s the kind of thing that goes much, much further than traditional marketing.
It’s what people pay attention to.
00:00:26 Sam:
Welcome to the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, brought to you by Testimonial Hero. The podcast that is all about helping you as a B2B marketing leader. Get the download on the most current practices and tactics related to customer storytelling.
My guest today is Russ Somers. Russ is the CMO at Lytho, formerly inMotionNow.
Russ also served as the VP of Marketing for a number of companies, including TrustRadius, TrendKite, Invodo, and several others. He’s also an advisor to many startups, and a mentor to many people in the B2B marketing community.
I’m very excited for this episode because Russ is an experienced leader, skilled in corporate marketing, demand gen and product marketing, and comms. Also, I think you’ll appreciate how he really brings the combination of strategic vision as well as analytical insight.
Russ, welcome to the show.
00:01:27 Russ:
Sam, thank you. It is awesome to be here. I just hope I can live up to that intro. I will do my best.
00:01:32 Sam:
Awesome. Well, I’m sure we’ll have no problem with that.
Just to kick us off, what’s the big deal with customer stories? Why do customer stories matter so much in B2B?
00:01:46 Russ:
Every aspect of selling and marketing is storytelling. As a marketer, I have relatively little credibility with my target audience. They know I’m paid to promote things. They’re going to be skeptical of what I say. So, when a third party says it, when a customer says it and says, “I actually got value, and here’s what it did for me,” that’s the kind of thing that it goes much, much further than traditional marketing.
It’s what people pay attention to.
00:02:14 Sam:
So true. You’ve been a marketing leader for quite some time now, including at TrustRadius, one of the companies, in my opinion, at the forefront of customer storytelling. I’m curious, how have you seen your customer stories evolve or change over your career?
00:02:36 Russ:
Some of my earliest marketing roles were in product marketing. Customer stories often rolled up to product marketing. It was, “Hey, we need a customer story about this type of client. Can you go get one?” which I loved because you learn your customers, you learn your product, you learn your market by doing that.
Back in the day, it was very curated. It was, let me get a customer story. Let me Polish it. Let me run it through legal a dozen times. What you’re going to get is this very perfect little jewel, but it’s also like an overproduced movie or something where you go, “I don’t believe it was that easy for Frodo and Sam to get up the side of Mount Doom. I think there had to be a heck of a lot more grit, and mud, and tough stuff along the way.”
People are embracing that authenticity, stepping away from, “I want a perfectly curated case study,” and into, “I want to know what actual users say, both the good stuff and the bad stuff.”
If you only give them the good stuff, it doesn’t build trust because they assume you’re holding something back. They want the full picture.
00:03:46 Sam:
That’s such a good point. I love that you brought the Lord of the Rings analogy in there, as well.
Let’s step back a little bit. I want to talk about what you’re doing right now. Your current role. I think you just went through a rebrand.
Tell us a little bit about your current role and what you have going on at Lytho.
00:04:07 Russ:
Sure. Well, I’m stepping into life though at an exciting time, because we just recently, as of April of this year, merged two companies, a Dutch company called life though, and a us company called inMotionNow. And what we determined, there were a few things that we needed to deal with. We had two very different sets of customers with somewhat different concerns, two very different stories.
And it was hard for a prospect to get their head around how these things work together. Even though really the two halves are simple on the workflow side, what was formerly in motion. Now we help creatives teams maximize their workflow and collaborate more effectively. And then on the lighthouse side, the legacy company, we help.
We help store those assets, put them into a brand center so that they can be used, et cetera. So to us, it was one sort of simple content lifecycle. We sometimes call it, but it was a little bit confusing to the market. So we had to go, how do we brand and tell a story that’s about that entire content life cycle and about the customer that needs that rather than about the two separate products.
It’s really fun, Sam, to walk into a marketing role. And on day one, have people say, I don’t know what’s up with our brand, but please blow it up and build something better. That’s just kind of fun. Usually you spend a quarter or two building the alignment that that might be needed and here it was open and waiting.
So it been a lot of
00:05:39 Sam:
That’s awesome. And definitely, you know, encourage everyone to follow Russ on LinkedIn. And, you know, who’s been sharing a lot of great stuff about that, you know, that transition. So definitely encourage people, check that out. As it pertains to customer stories. How are you, so you, you, you’re taking this time to kind of think about the future.
How are you thinking about a customer stories for life though? in this kind of formative time.
00:06:06 Russ:
It’s really nice to have the opportunity to go back and build it from the ground up. So that’s forced us to think a little more strategically about customer stories. We. Have a. Blessing that our customers do really do. Like what we do really are very attached to us, which is wonderful, which means we don’t have a shortage of customer story content or volunteers to tell the story that lets us start thinking about it strategically.
So the way. Approaching it is like any product. We’ve got a number of different types of use cases, right? You can use the product for this purpose, for that purpose, you know, for your review and approval for your proofing, for your assets or whatever, it might be. Use cases down in one side. Across the top.
You might go personas. Well, we have creative directors, we have tragic traffic managers. We have chief marketing officers. We have a number of personas across the top. And then if you want to get really fun and turn it into a cube instead of a spreadsheet, you go, okay, there’s a set of types of companies that we serve, you know, retail and CPG.
You know, sports teams are a popular one. We had, you know, both the Braves and the Astros. So whoever won the world series we won anyway. Right. But. Then you have a cube where you’ve got use cases down. One side, one axis is personas and the other access is type of companies. And so I’m going back and saying, okay, what customer do I have at the intersection of each of these things to go get a story from so that whatever the objection might be in a sales cycle, whatever the point we want to emphasize, we’re going to do it in a way that a person will go that’s a company like.
That is a person like me. And that is a problem. Like the one that I have, and that gives you when you can get all three of those things, customer stories become really powerful.
00:08:00 Sam:
For someone who’s just, starting out, maybe in their customer’s story initiatives, they have, a handful of, of videos or maybe even no videos, a handful of, reviews. how do you advise or, prioritizing, right? Cause it sounds like you guys are pretty mature and you can sort of see, you know, you sort of see the gaps and they’re pretty. But what if someone’s a little earlier on what any sort of tips or guidance that you would give them in the kind of early part of the journey to kind of like figure out okay. Where, where should I prioritize my unlimited time, energy and resources for customer stories.
00:08:39 Russ:
One of the best things you can do is sit on calls with your AEs, listen to call recordings, et cetera, and try to figure out where are deals getting stuck. And if you can identify those points that tells you what your customer story content needs to be about, because I get it. People, people think this is going to be a big thing and we won’t be there to help them through the implementation.
For example, we’ve all had unfortunately the experience of buying software that was super hard to implement the implementation team. Wasn’t great or whatever. So cool. I know now that I’m hearing on those calls, that people are worried about that. Let me get a video, let me get a customer story of a customer saying, man, the implementation process couldn’t have been smoother, more seamless.
You guys held our hand through every step of it, et cetera. I mean a customer story is just a tool, right? And you go, what is the problem we’re trying to solve with it?
And so listening to sales calls helps a lot with that because you immediately listen to a half dozen sales calls. You’ll go, I know three customer stories that I need right now.
00:09:46 Sam:
It’s so true. It’s like that saying like a problem well-defined is, is half solved. Right? And, and to your point, it’s like, step one is like, define the problem. Like, are we, what are we trying to solve with this? It’s easy, simple, but not easy. Right. To kind of, sometimes it’s a lot going on, but that’s, I love that point. so I I kind of understand the problem I want to solve. Maybe I understand the industry, you know, in, in the, persona, how do I actually then. you know, figure out which customer in my customer base that I want to feature and kinda, you know, get that agreement.
Is it, is it as simple as, okay. I rope in, you know, customer success to help me find that person. So I feel like, you know, one thing that I see is like data and the visibility that marketers have into the customer. And really varies. And then there’s, you know, based on the software stack, but also the size of the company, how, you know, how large of a company they’re right.
00:10:45 Russ:
Yeah, there’s. I mean, there’s a number of routes and they’re all good routes. One is like you said, you know, get in deep with your customer experience team and understand what customers they know, who has a great story. Our leader of customer experience, Brittany Pace runs a regular. Event where she will have a CS team member present a customer story and walk through what they did.
And so I go to those sessions because that’s just serving them up for me. Right. So embedding with your CX team is a big piece of it. Again, getting really, really clear on what problem you solve. As we said earlier is a big piece of it. And then something that marketers don’t do enough in my humble opinion is build direct relationships with customers because then you end up when you actually have not just a customer that you’ve met or had a drink within an event, but actual friends in the industry, then you can call them and say, Whether it’s, we’re thinking of launching a feature or we need, you know, sort of a soundbite about this feature or that feature, you then have people you can actually go to.
So build those direct relationships. Don’t let your company be a barrier between you and the customers.
00:12:01 Sam:
What about the, you know, different formats and mediums? the big three being, you know, third-party reviews, videos, and maybe more traditionally, you know, written case studies, arguably, you know, we can also include, you know, reference calls and maybe analysts reports or make it five, but How do you think about the different, you know, mediums and formats of customer stories as someone who has leveraged all of them, you know, over the course of your career.
00:12:29 Russ:
Yeah, they have, they have pros and cons for sure. But you know, obviously written third reviews on third-party sites have this credibility thing. Right. You know, it’s not curated, you know, as. They’ve got that advantage. They’ve got the disadvantage that really only 10% of the population learns best by reading.
Most people learn best either by seeing or by hearing, which is what makes video a powerful marketing vehicle, because then you’re playing to the learning styles of most of your audience. So. All else equal. You want to have the same content in different forms, the same stories in different forms, but video is disproportionately impactful.
One part of it is the learning styles that I mentioned, but the other piece of it is. You know, in this conversation that you and I can look at each other and kind of judge is rest credible right now. Does rest look like he knows what he’s talking about? Does rest seem a little lost on this topic or does he really seem to know it?
Right? You can make a lot of judgements about a person’s credibility in video that you can’t do in text, because we know the text is curated and polished, so they all have their place. But I love third-party reviews because I have neutrality and I love video because it brings multimodal learning. Plus you can really independently assess the person’s credibility.
00:13:52 Sam:
Yeah, I completely agree. And that we’ve focused solely on third-party reviews and video testimonials, video case studies. That’s I completely agree. And just to score point there with the video too. I think not only can you see the credibility, but it’s because it’s a bigger ask. You, you sort of, there’s an implicit, implicitly, more social proof with that.
And in many cases, right? Cause it’s like, you know, it’s a lot easier to just hammer out a review or, you know, give a quote, pull quote for a site, you know, our slide. But like if someone goes on video, And was willing to commit to that. Like, they were really like an advocate.
Like it’s just, it was sort of that relationship. I think of like, they clearly are committed as well.
00:14:39 Russ:
Well, they’re putting their mouth where their money is. Right. Which is great. And it, I just couldn’t agree with you more. It makes absolute perfect sense because then they are truly invested. Now I will say that I think there’s generational things as well in that the more you get into gen Z And you know, the younger millennials, the more they grew up on camera, they’re totally good with it.
It’s actually easy. And so there’s something to be said for that as well. Is it actually makes your intake process easier rather than shooting a document back and forth a few hundred times as people edit, revise, Vanessa, et cetera, with video, you capture it. you got it. It’s that easy.
00:15:18 Sam:
So true. And what about, you know, the more, I think we’re personally you and I definitely lean more toward third-party reviews and videos. I’m curious, where do you see, you know, if anywhere like the written case study. sort of going, or is it, is it, or is the sun kind of setting in your opinion on like the traditional, like PDF, you know, case study?
Or like, on a, in a PDF format almost more certainly. Right. Maybe it’s like on a website now, but, if written like case studies are going to stay relevant, Where do you think that they sort of need to, to evolve into,
00:15:54 Russ:
That’s a really good question. I mean, off the top of my head, I think the evolution is it becomes clearer that it’s a marketing piece. That, you know, a third-party review is neutral. A video is somebody putting their own name and reputation out there. And when you do a written case study, you just know this is truly a marketing piece.
You make no apologies for that. So it’s packaged perfectly. It’s nice and shiny, et cetera. What’s interesting though, is the more you work, all of these angles together, you find, you know, from your third-party reviews, you find great reviews.
This is a perfect person to ask for a testimonial or a case study.
You do the work that you’re doing with creating, you know, testimonial videos. The transcript of that is the rough outline for a written case study. So all of these things kind of work together and reinforce each other in my, in my humble opinion.
00:16:47 Sam:
That makes complete sense. So really it doesn’t have to be an either or it can absolutely be a yes. And, that makes sense. And, I’d love to get your opinion on like measuring results of, you know, customer stories. So I think there’s a lot of interesting you know, in, in good points, about this.
Some people are, fairly sort of blacks on the measurement maybe in, and because they know. Look, sales is using them. They’re getting feedback. Like that’s good enough for me. and that works for them. Other people, if you put in the work, you can obviously measure them a lot more. It really depends how much you want to hook everything up to your remark, an automation platform, and go through that whole thing.
Where do you kind of fall around? Like, just like the philosophy of measurement on customer stories and how, how do you, I guess, achieve.
00:17:40 Russ:
It’s a really good question. You know, the phrase measure, what matters comes to mind. I want, by default everything I do hooked up to my marketing stack six ways from Sunday so that I can measure anything I might want to measure. But you have to ask, what is the purpose? Of the asset you’ve created before you can measure the results.
So, you know, is it primarily down-funnel impact? Okay. I’m going to measure usage by the sales team. How often do they actually go to the dam, pull this asset and use it in a sales pitch. If it is, if I’m looking for higher funnel, it’s like, I’m getting people to the web. I want them to watch this video and overcome their own objections.
So they’ll opt in and we can market to them then. Cool. I’m going to measure consumption on the website. How many times a video, how many times have pages seen how many times the video is played? Is it played through the completion? And nice thing about video is you’ve got, and this goes back to my days at, in Voto super cool metrics in terms of how long it’s watch for are there points that they scrubbed back and forth to see additional contents?
It all comes down to the purpose, but I’m going to want to know two things. is it consumed by external parties? And is it used by our internal parties?
By our, by our sales And CS team? If I measure those two things, I feel like I’m going in a good direction. I also look for the soft attribution of hearing from sales.
Hey man, that customer story you published on this particular use case just helped me move this deal down. Can’t really quantify that as well, but I love to hear it because it helps me know. Do people find them useful?
00:19:17 Sam:
It’s so true. And I agree. I think it’s like, it’s a balance of like common sense and measuring what matters to your point. Right. and I guess starting with the right strategy, right. Coming back to one of your first points. The the better, you know, you nailed on the strategy to begin with the, you know, obviously the results are the measure, the results you’re looking for are going to be there. So it pays to figure out the strategy first because you know that that’s ultimately, what’s going to drive, I think a large part of the results. another challenge, people run into is actually kind of getting customers to start to agree. So like, if I’m a marketer, a B2B marketer, a marketing leader listened to this like, great. I understand, like, I need to, you know, build up this, this matrix, this cube, you know, map my personas, map, my verticals, Matt, my product.
Do a gap analysis, figure out, you know, what I need to prioritize, but when I actually make that ask, you know, it’s, it’s, it can be a big ask depending on what you’re asking for. And like, what have you learned about just getting customers to say yes.
And do you have any tips to share there? Whether it’s like how you ask functionally, you know, ways you can, you know, make it a two-way exchange of value or anything at all you can share with the audience there? Cause I know that is something that everyone gets stuck on, you know from time to time.
00:20:42 Russ:
Yeah. I mean, there’s a few things. First off is working with your contracts and legal team to ensure that the ask is this just there in the default contract? What that does is it removes a speeding? You’re never, even if every contract says you will give us a testimonial, you’re never going to push somebody that doesn’t want to give you one into giving you one.
And if you did, you’d probably regret it. But by having it baked into the contract as a default task, you remove that first speed bump of. Am I allowed to ask for this. So that’s a big piece of it is making sure that that’s done. I like what you said, Sam, about two way exchange of value and different people value different things.
So trying to figure out what they’re going to value and payback that value. Some people love to speak on a webinar or in a video and just. This is super cool. You’re promoting me, you’re building my personal brand. You know, you can look at the person on LinkedIn and go, is this somebody that’s into promoting themselves and building their brand?
Cool. That lets me know how to make the ask because I’m going to make it in the context of we’re going to do this in a way that’s going to help you. Is this person very much sort of the. Corporate citizen that doesn’t tend to step out and do, and, and, you know, do things that are self promotional. Then you have to ask, what do they get out of it?
And maybe you just need to have that conversation with them about their career goals, what matters to them and try to position what you’re doing as a way to get them there. So there’s, there’s sort of no substance. For knowing the person and working to figure out their motivations. So the ask is one that benefits both, but I will say this, we think we’re making this big ass.
Oh my gosh, we’re going, we’re asking a person to do a really big thing. An awful lot of people are happy to do it. I mean, most people, when they find a vendor that they like, it’s like, finally, you get me. They will want to pay that back.
You do have to avoid reference fatigue though, because it’s really easy to go.Here are the same six customers we always ask and past a certain point, they start, you know, going, we’ve given you a lot. So knowing that’s where again, knowing which ones you really want, which customers you need can help you avoid that reference fatigue because by Nat you’ll naturally be steered away from burning them out.
00:23:06 Sam:
Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned reference fatigue because that can be a real issue. I was having an, in another previous conversation on the show, we were talking about how, you know, with video testimonials and especially utilizing like the micro content and making more than just like the 92nd video, you can really deflect a lot of those reference calls and, you know, you can sort of just.
Kind of scaled out by having a more rich video experience of your kind of would be references. So yeah, that is a really good point.
00:23:41 Russ:
Well, yeah, let’s you do one to many references where before it has to be one-to-one, which also means there’s some training of the sales team involved. When somebody says, Hey, I’d like to do a call with a reference customer. You should train your sales team to add. Cool. What objection are you trying to overcome?
You know, what’s, what’s your concern? What question are you trying to answer? Because a lot of times then you’ll say, oh, well, I can definitely connect you with a reference, but if your primary concern is again, I’ll go back to implementation. Just in this example, if your primary concern is implementation, here’s like two videos where customers talk about the implementation process.
That’ll get you an overview. And then if you need to know more, I’m happy to set up that reference.
00:24:24 Sam:
So reference calls aren’t going away then completely, there are still going to be a thing, but maybe it seems like really rich customer storytelling. us as marketers, we can sort of, you know, minimize them or just better utilize them. Is that sort of.
00:24:39 Russ:
I think that’s fair to say. And the other thing is, again, in this economy where it’s easy to figure out what everybody else is doing, people are going to do back channel reference calls. Anyway, the customer you queue up to give me a reference call. I know again is curated Is prepped. Is somebody you have faith in to not say anything bad, versus if I can figure out who’s using your product.
And ask them myself, I’m going to go have that conversation. And it’s not hard to figure out who’s using a given piece of technology.
00:25:08 Sam:
That’s a great point. And, in terms of, you know, where things are going in the future, you know, we talked a little bit about how things have changed in the, over the course of your career, but I’m curious where you see things going in the future. Around customer stories and, yeah, let’s what are some of the, I guess, trends or changes that you’re, that you’re kind of seeing in the marketplace?
00:25:32 Russ:
Well, I mean, there’s interesting things to think about in terms of where the puck is going to be. Right. I think our customer story is going to continue to be important. They’ve been important since the Dawn of business and they will continue to be important. The form is going to change. And if you look at people now trusting third parties, I think a piece you’re going to see is.
People looking for more ways to make direct connection with a customer and ask direct questions of that person. So, you know, that’s one thing people are going to go, how can I look this person up and have a conversation with him directly without being connected? And for that, I think you need to think in terms of your customer story strategy, do you answer all the questions in small enough bites?
Because one thing that is very true of traditional customer stories is they’re sort of monolithic. It’s a big case study. It’s a lot of effort. Cool. But how do you have a simple thing?
That’s like. Three sentences. That answers one specific question per your point, about taking a video and breaking it up and atomizing it.
How do you arm the sales team and arm the customers with those, you know, 30 seconds on this one feature rather than a five minute video? Right? So atomization would be a big thing that I think it happens everywhere else in marketing is absolutely happening in customer stories.
00:26:56 Sam:
So true. And I think you know, with that atomization also kind of comes up. This may be more focused on the full funnel approach. Whereas to me, I feel like even, you know, a couple of years ago, you know, customer stores were almost this thing where it’s like, okay, like, you know, they’re pretty close to the deal.
Like men, we hit them with all the customer stories in like that case study to kind of push them over the line. Whereas like now I think a lot of big shift is like the best. No marketing teams are leveraging customer voice throughout the entire buyer journey. to your point, it’s, it’s not this monolithic thing at the end anymore.
It’s atomized throughout the entire buyer journey, just going to sprinkle them.
00:27:39 Russ:
Well, there are these trust cues, right? A customer story says, I can trust you. And there’s no reason you should save that all for the bottom of the funnel, because your funnel is a series of steps. And at each step you want to give them the insurance, somebody that. Well there’s an SEO platform called demand.
Well, and their primary marketing asset right now, at least as I see it is a video of Kyle Lacy from Lessonly talking about them and they’re not using that just in sales cycles. That is absolutely a big part of their top of funnel marketing. When you see their ads, they’re using that to build credibility.
Because again, what I say about myself as a marketer, no one cares what a customer says. That matters.
So I think you’ll see a lot more of that full funnel and that feeds the atomization as well, because you don’t have the attention span at the top of the funnel for, you know, an hour long session or what have, but you certainly have 30 seconds to answer a key question.
00:28:36 Sam:
So true. And, Russ, any tips for marketing leaders who want to, they like what they’re hearing and they’re like, okay, I want to, I want to make up for lost time. Right? Like I want to get. I want to catch up on my customer story programs, any tips or advice to help them kind of get.
00:28:54 Russ:
I mean, you’ve got to start somewhere. So the key is just to start right. Do some quick and dirty map of again, the verticals you want and the personas, the problems. So you have a starting place that doesn’t have to be. Big exercise. You can do it in 30 minutes if you know your business. So that’s step one.
Step two is to go to your customer success team and say, I apologize for not having been as involved as I should have been, but I really need to start getting to know customers and use them to broker those introductions. And then as you build those direct relationships, Use those to expand your program, you know, identify, you’ve got a customer that it, a killer testimonial, killer customer story.
Awesome. Who are other customers like that? So the core thing is just to start some strategy, but a little bit of execution overcomes, overcomes that pretty quickly.
00:29:44 Sam:
Russ, where can people get in touch with you if they want to connect and learn more about you or one of your courses?
00:29:53 Russ:
I’m just Russ Somers. I’m on LinkedIn. You can hit me up there.
Lytho, L Y T H O.com. You can get all the information on our offerings. If you’ve got creative teams, marketing teams dealing with complex things, we have a lot of resources there that can help you.
00:30:10 Sam:
Awesome.
Russ, this has been just an absolutely fantastic episode. Very excited to get this out there. Thanks for hopping on.
00:30:17 Russ:
Sam, I’ve really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.
00:30:20 Sam:
That was a just fantastic episode with Russ Somers.
Just to highlight a few of the things that really stood out to me. I love this, not just a matrix, but a cube. So, thinking about plotting it out, use cases on one axis, personas on the other axis, and then industries. Just thinking about that and making sure you check all the boxes that you want to check in the order that is important to you.
Lots of good stuff about sitting on calls with your AEs, understanding the pain points. At the end of the day, as Russ said, customer stories are a tool. So, if you want to solve a problem, you want to understand what problem you’re trying to solve.
Is it a specific objection? A question or a doubt? A QFD that comes up frequently? Also some really good stuff about how it’s no longer about a monolithic case study. The best marketing teams are out there are taking a more full-funnel approach atomization of content.
You really want to get your video, get your third-party reviews. Your case studies can be a part of that as well. They’re all synergistic, and they all reinforce each other.
I definitely encourage anyone to follow Ross. He’s great on LinkedIn, shares a lot of great content.
As always, this is the State of Customer Storytelling podcast. I’m Sam Shepler from Testimonial Hero, and we hope to see you in another episode.
Jeff Ernst is the co-founder and CEO at SlapFive. SlapFive helps you capture the experiences and insights of your customers to earn the trust of your buyers. Increasing buyer trust helps you engage and keep new customers, and accelerates your sales cycles as you earn their trust.
I talk with Jeff about why customer stories are the last bastion of competitive advantage in the digital age. We talk about why customer stories are the one thing your competitors can’t copy or replicate. We also talk about why customer stories are better for building trust than case studies, how to build long-lasting relationships with your customers, and much more.
Jeff Ernst has worked as an executive, founder, consultant, industry analyst, advisor, and volunteer. Besides co-founding SlapFive, he has worked for companies and organizations such as Forrester Research, Kadient Inc., Nuance Communications, and Revenue Accelerators. Jeff earned his MBA from the Babson F.W. Olin Graduate School of Business.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- The one thing your competition can’t match
- When to capture a customer’s story
- How to ask a customer for a video testimonial
Links & Resources
- Buyer Persona Institute
- Forrester
- Upland Qvidian (Kadient)
- G2
- Salesforce
- HubSpot
- Testimonial Hero
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Jeff Ernst’s Links
- Jeff’s LinkedIn page
- Email Jeff
- SlapFive
- Jeff’s free Ebook: From the Horse's Mouth
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Jeff:
Every other form of competitive advantage that you have can be quickly duplicated in this digital age. If you have a product feature advantage, a competitor can copy it. If you have a service advantage, a competitor can hire a few people and deliver a similar service. What they can’t replicate are your customer success stories—the successes in the first place—as well as customers telling those stories for other people to hear.
How do you copy that?
00:00:32 Sam:
Welcome to another episode of the State of Customer Storytelling podcast.
My guest today is Jeff Ernst. Jeff is the co-founder and CEO at SlapFive, which is the first customer marketing software platform. He started SlapFive because of his belief that customer stories are really the last bastion of real competitive advantage for B2B firms.
He’s also the co-founder of the Customer-Led Movement, which we can get into. He has an extensive background as an executive, a founder, consultant, and an analyst.
He’s previously served in leadership roles at the Buyer Persona Institute, Forrester, Research, Kadient, and many other companies in the software and technology space.
Jeff, welcome to the show.
00:01:28 Jeff:
Thank, you Sam. Glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me on, and congratulations on your podcast. Great to hear that you’re doing this.
00:01:35 Sam:
Absolutely. I’m very excited for the chat today. I’ve learned a lot from you over the years and all of our conversations.
So, let’s dive right in. You mentioned customer stories told in the end-customer’s voice are really the last bastion of competitive advantage, especially, in B2B. Let’s dig into that more. Tell me more about that. What exactly do you mean by that?
00:02:03 Jeff:
If you think about it, every other form of competitive advantage you have can be quickly duplicated in this digital age, If you have a product feature advantage, a competitor can copy it. If you have a service advantage, a competitor can hire a few people and deliver a similar service.
What they can’t replicate are your customer success stories—the successes in the first place—as well as the customers telling those stories for other people to hear.
How do you copy that? You can’t. That’s why I say it’s really the last bastion of competitive advantage, because it’s the one thing that can’t be stolen copied or replicated. In the digital age everything else is just so quickly to be done.
When you think about today’s modern buying cycle, and I did a lot of research on this at Forrester, where I built the buyer persona research methodology. Then, as you mentioned, I’ve worked with the Buyer Persona Institute.
I’ve done thousands of buyer interviews, and the most important thing, the biggest questions, fears, and doubts that buyers have as they go through a buying process at every single stage, every one of them is best told in the voice of your customers.
As much as we love to put out our own product collateral—and we all love our products—what buyers really want is a crystal ball into what life is like as a customer. Any company that’s able to provide that crystal ball is going to have a distinct competitive advantage over those that can’t, because you’re going to earn trust. You’re going to overcome whatever fears or doubts your buyers have, and they’re going to look at you much quicker as that trusted partner.
That’s really what I mean. I’m sure you’re seeing it as well in your business, too. People come to you because they’re also trying to solve that trust gap that exists in the market, and customer voice is the best way to fill that trust gap.
00:03:55 Sam:
So true. And, and I know that you mentioned like, you know, providing that, that crystal ball. I’m curious, like how do you see, you know, customer storytelling kind of evolving or how have you seen the space evolving over the past couple years in terms of that? Is it, You know, firms need the more customer stories to be, competitive then, you know, then maybe, you know, five years ago, you know, maybe more segmented, you know, and more accessible.
But yeah, what are the shifts that you’ve seen as you’ve been very intimately involved in this space for.
00:04:29 Jeff:
Yeah, for sure. And, I like to think that I’ve helped lead some of the shifts. Maybe that’s a little bit of wishful thinking, but, but there’s definitely a shift going on here because the, the traditional mindset, when it comes to customer proof are the things I call, the happy quotes and the, you know, the the classic PDF case study written in the third person by a professional writer after interviewing your customer where it’s lost all that authentic first-person tone of voice, It just happens the traditional case. Studies tend to be all about you. you know, that they make the product, your r product, the star of the story, not the customer.
It just doesn’t answer those biggest questions, fears, and doubts that buyers have. Right. And if you go through and look at, if you do the analysis to really understand what are, what are those questions, fears, and doubts that your buyers have, and then compare that to what are the insights delivered in your customer stories.
You’re going to see a huge gap in. Well, like I said, historically, companies have always relied on these four-page PDFs–challenge solution result format–with a little happy quote in the sidebar, or they do the happy-day scenario stories where, The customer was in a world of hurt.
They came to us we’re the Knight in shining armor and now they’re living happily ever after. that’s the story arc of a typical customer story, but where I see it shifting now, is it, it is aligning more with how buyers buy, because what you really need to do is understand, okay, what are those insights that buyers need in order to make a confident decision and buy from you?
It could be objections they raise. It could be confusion they have it could be misunderstandings. I call this taking a more surgical approach because once. you understand those things, you can then frame the right questions to ask your customers so that you’re sure to be gathering those types of insights.
That’s like the, the subject matter of what you’re capturing. then of course there’s a whole. delivery side of that is the other half of the equation, right? Is that, you know, video today is just so important, but I, I say video and audio today are both really important, but what they both have in advantage of over any kind of text format or written format is that you hear that authentic tone of voice.
That’s how human beings decide whether to trust something is from the tone of voice. When you hear the emotion. When you hear the, you know, the, the anguish the person might’ve been feeling or the joy as they talk about their results. also, when it’s done in a way that it’s not just somebody sounding like there’ve been, they’re reading from a script, what they’ve been told to say, looking off, blah, blah, blah, boom.
But when, when they’re actually sharing their experiences and sounding authentic, I mean, that, that is just so critical today because, because buyers are smart. Right. And, and again, I’m sure. Buyers. And when I say buyer, it could be when you’re going after net new logos, right. Those are buyers when you’re trying to get customers to onboard.
Okay. They’re in buying mode when you’re trying to get existing customers to expand and buy more. Okay. They’re in buying mode and when you want them to renew they’re in buying mode. So, so all of those cases is what I talked about with buyers and in this content needs to be speaking to all of them whatever those questions, fears, and doubts are that they have when they’re in that mode.
00:07:43 Sam:
It’s searcher, like, one, you know, thing we say a lot is like, you don’t get tone through text, you know, it’s just, it’s just that simple. Right. yeah. So one thing I’m also seeing in, I’m curious to get your take on is like, I feel like, you know, speaking of a, kind of contrasting like the old way. with, with, you know, the the future, right. to me, it feels like the, you know, the old way was very much like, customer evidence in, in customer proof is sort of like a checkpoint, you know, mid later down the funnel. Right. That was kind of the, all the way. Okay. Like kick them over the line with, with the customer evidence versus now it seems like, you know, in the data obviously supports, this is, you know, buyers today.
They wanna, they want to self-consume They want to do their own research. And with that in mind and, you know, they’re going to, they want to be able to dig into, customer stories and customer content, at all stages of the customer journey. Now that, that, which that the, that the shape of that the length and the format of that customer content may differ depending on the buyer journey.
Of course, but what do you think about that? And like that sort of like, you know, that, that shift.
00:08:50 Jeff:
Yeah, it is. And, and I think what What falls under that shift you just described is this whole idea of customer reference programs, for example. we’re all used to having to hoard our customer references till the very end of the sales cycle until it’s the last thing you need in order to get a.
Prospect over the finish line, because, then you’re going to go ask a customer to do a reference because you don’t want to burn them out and use the same customers over and over again. that’s one of the classical ways of thinking that gets in the way. another one is that we can’t tap into our customers and even ask them to do a customer story until they’ve been with us for three years.
They’re totally happy. There’s no upsell going on. There are no renewal discussions going on. There are no issues there. Support issues or open tickets how many customers are ever in that Nirvana state. They’re not. And, and, and so, these are a couple of the areas where I’ve tried to get people to re modernize their thinking because some of the best stories might come.
Customers that are just signed on from you with you, That’s when they’re the happiest, that’s when they can tell you how they went about evaluating and comparing their options in the market why they selected you and why they decided to make a change in the first place, which are amazing insights that customers have right after they sign the dotted line to be a new customer of yours that they might forget later.
On Right. And so, so I work with my customers to help capture stories at that point in time. then every other point in the sales cycle, there are those magic moments that we call SlapFive moments where, you know, they finished onboarding. That’s a great time to capture customer voice. you know, when they, maybe after they’ve been with you for a year, it’s a great time to ask, you know, start to ask about the value they’ve been deriving and get examples in use cases of particular valuable things they’ve done Maybe they filled out a net promoter score survey, and they’ve given you a 9 or 10. That’s a great time to get some feedback from them on why they gave you a 9 or 10 that could contribute to your customer story library. So, so these are just some of the ways that that people need to kind of expand their thinking because it’s no longer about the monolithic case.
Study Or the, the, you know, the, or the happy quotes that, that people love to sprinkle, sprinkle all around their websites. It doesn’t mean there’s not a place for the happy quotes. Right.
But I like to say to a company when, when you just get these happy trait quotes, you know, read them out loud at your company meetings and get your employees jazz.
Cause that’s really what they’re good for. They make every, give everybody goosebumps, but they don’t really serve the needs of a buyer. Who’s trying to overcome their fears and doubts.
00:11:20 Sam:
Absolutely. And to your point about, you know, competitive advantage, like. if you’re a company, you know, has just as happy quotes and then the competitor has, really, what you’re talking about, you know, the real, you know, insights and you know, actually customers sharing, you know, knowledge, experience and advice, you know, enrich media. I mean, who’s going to have the competitive advantage, right. So, super, super good point. I want to hit on like earned advocacy versus paid customer advocacy. And how does it sort of change, you know, if it does, based on like company size, right?
Cause I think some smaller companies. Are, you know, think of that. Okay. It’s all well and good, but I don’t have a customer advocacy program. I I’m a startup and I just need to quickly get some social proof out there. Right. how do you think.
That sort of, relationship between of course earned customer advocacy and paid customer advocacy.
And of course, you know, with the idea being, you know, how, how has, you know, if I’m a marketer listening to this, how can I succeed and do what we all want to do, which is more earned customer advocacy.
00:12:23 Jeff:
Right. Yeah. I’m glad you raised that. And I’m glad you’ve been following that because I, I coined the, those phrases, probably about five years ago, coin earned versus paid advocacy, but it wasn’t totally original because. It was a colleague of mine at Forrester that coined the term earned versus paid versus owned media.
And so I co-opted that and applied it to advocacy because I think everybody knows in media that earned media is like your, your most valuable media, you can pay all you want But, but the, the ROI and the real bang for the buck comes from, from earned media. The same thing with advocacy. and just to describe what I mean by that, this is, I think where advocacy is shifting the reason why it’s so relevant to customer stories is because.
The more You take a more modern view of advocacy, which is earned advocacy, the easier it’s going to be to get customers to step up and want to share their stories, because here’s how we’ve always done it. In the past. We think about customer advocacy as let’s identify the top 3 to 5% of our raving lunatic fan customers, and let’s go after them and beg them to do favors for us.
We’ll bribe them by paying them $500 to do a testimonial video, or we’ll pay them 50 to go write a review on G2 or we’ll pay them 300 every time they do a reference call or something like that. that’s what I call paid advocacy You’re you’re offering a bribe and then the customer waits for the bribe to come, then they do it and then they get their reward.
It’s like training a dog. The problem with that is that it turns your relationship with the customer into a transactional relationship. it, then it becomes one where they’re only going to evaluate whether they do it based on the size and value of the reward. And if that’s not sizeable enough, they’re going to say no.
Also, what it does is it releases the dopamine in the brain, If you’re using gamification and leaderboards and things like that, which is not a long-lasting happiness drug in the brain compared to oxytocin. Right. Which is, again, I don’t want to get too much into brain science, but. A lot.
So earned advocacy is all about creating a two-way exchange of value with your customers. you make them successful. The power of reciprocity is going to turn and make them turn around and want to make you successful. this is how customer advocacy has evolved rapidly too many people are still in the paid advocacy realm.
I’m trying to get more people to realize, to do it this way, but with earned advocacy, you’re running a program where. The customers are given lots of opportunities to showcase their knowledge, experience and advice. they’re able to build their reputation. so there’s a lot of intrinsic value for them, especially to share their customer stories So in, instead of giving them rewards and payments, instead, they’re getting intrinsic benefits by building their career, things they value even more that are going to make them a one, you know, really feel more of a trusted relationship versus a transactional relationship with you.
This is what releases the oxytocin in the brain, the love drug and builds long-term lasting relationships with customers. so again, as it relates to customer stories, you know, the, the, the best way to do customer stories is to be doing it throughout the customer life cycle, not just saving them up until that one point, but in order to be doing that without hindering your customers, you know, you, you need to be engaging them in acts of advocacy.
Where there they’re mutually benefiting so that they’re going to be like, you know, readily and anxiously awaiting the next opportunity you offer them. I can say, I’ve just done like three customer interviews for my clients today with. their Customers and every one of them was so appreciative.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak. thank you for showcasing the work we’ve done. We feel like we’ve done so much great work, but we know we’re still barely scratching the surface. So I’m honored that you want to recognize our, success to date. Right. And because. That’s the power of, of earned advocacy.
Right. so, I don’t know if you’re seeing the same thing, but, but it, you know, a lot of it comes down to the, the incentives I like to use the analogy, Sam, if you think about, if you were to go to TripAdvisor you were to see a review from about a resort, and then you found out that that person was paid a thousand dollars to write that review, how much trust are you going to put in that review?
Or if you’re, if you’re looking to hire somebody and you go to their LinkedIn profile and you see a recommendation from them, but at the bottom it said, my former boss was paid $250 to write this recommendation. how much trust are you going to put in that? So I think that’s the, the real, the real, a huge need for us to get to earned advocacy because buyers again, are there, they’re too smart.
They’re going to see through people that are just out there being paid to shell for you.
00:17:28 Sam:
It’s it’s so true. And to me, it comes also back to like the medium, right. And, and, you know, video and audio, you can tell, you know, you can tell when someone’s just, you know, cares genuinely, you know, or if they’re just, as you said, just kind of being paid to. it’s the same reason why, you know, people do no reference calls before hiring people, right?
You, you, you, you’re not going to conduct that over email, you know, to check someone’s background, you want to talk to the person, see how enthusiastic they really are. I love that point. and you, you brought up a good point about a two way exchange of value and, and that’s so crucial. And I think one of the things that we as As customer marketers and marketing leaders, we think about a lot is like, one of the best ways to do that is like helping, our advocates, build their reputation and career of course.
Right. But sometimes that can be like sort of a nebulous. Thing to aspire to write in, you know, how do you, you know, how do you go about that? How, how how you help people, build their reputation and career? Is it, is it, you know, content and promoting that content you know, yeah. What, what, what can we do to, to do that, to where exchange of value.
00:18:39 Jeff:
Yeah. And so one of the mindset shifts, and I actually wrote a whole ebook about this and, first point of my eight points on how to go about this is, the thing you have to put out of your mind is to go to customers, begging them for.
Testimonials. when they say testimonials I mean, the happy quotes, Not the great testimonial video work you do, so stop asking them for testimonial, quotes, endorsements, or recommendations, because first of all, there’s nothing in it for the customer to give you those things.
Also they oftentimes have handcuffs on, they’re not allowed to do in shell for a vendor, especially in more regulated industries, it’s especially hard, but then the larger the company you asked you, well, how does this vary by size of company, the larger the company you work for? The more you’re prohibited from going on the record of endorsing or recommending a vendor?
However, People are always sharing opinions. People love to share opinions. So what I coach people on how to do this is to say, make the shift from begging customers for their testimonial, videos, endorsements, and recommendations. I’m sorry, testimonial, quotes, endorsements, and recommendations. But instead present them with great opportunities to showcase their knowledge, their experience, and their advice.
If you think about it, everybody loves to share their knowledge because it makes them feel. smart Everybody loves to share their experience because it makes them feel successful. everybody loves to share their advice because it makes them feel heard. And so I think that’s a huge, huge difference, and it’s all in how you present it to the customer.
So if you’re saying to the customer, look, you’ve been with us for two years. You haven’t done anything for us yet. I’m begging, begging, begging. My CEO wants us to do three case studies this quarter. Could you do one for us, please? No, it’s a big burden. you’re asking for a big burden and, and there’s nothing in it for them versus say, Hey customer, you you’ve you’ve you’ve, you’ve done some really impressive things.
I think there should be. We have a great opportunity for you to showcase that. So other people that are behind you in their journey, might want to learn from we’ve got this great opportunity for you to share the success you’ve been experiencing. this is all part of how you craft the story too.
You want to craft the story such that it’s about their success, not about how great the product is or service, and, you want to make them the star of the story. I can tell you that, you know, my, my whole business is built as, is yours on helping our clients, get their customers to feel that way it’s never failed when, when you make that shift, I mean, begging people to do case studies. Fails, but, but when you present it with these opportunities, for them to showcase their knowledge experience and advice, it never feels the only time I ever run into trouble or resistance or places where I might have to soft pedal.
Is where they say. Yeah. But, but I’m still, my company will still not let me go on the record and use my company logo publicly. And then I’m thinking, okay, well, what I say to my clients is, okay, so for that customer, They have some great stories that they’re sharing. What if you tell that customer, and we’re not going to put this on YouTube or CNN or, you know, broadcast and get public for the world to see, but we’ll use this in sales cycles that with highly qualified prospects and in that customer, Covered their butt.
And you’ve now controlled the distribution of that story. but even having a story like that, that you can use in your sales cycles, it’s phenomenally successful because I talked about like the reference overuse and burnout earlier, you, now that your sales team can have this library of customer stories that they can use.
Reduce the need or deflect the need for these live one-on-one reference calls. And they can introduce them earlier in the sales cycle. That’s a home run. And so, so, so there’s also, you know, there’s, there’s how you position it to the customer. That’s number one first and foremost, but then there’s also giving the customer some flexibility in how you use the stories that the capture, not everything has to be made for a prime time TV.
00:22:44 Sam:
It’s true. how do you think about. deciding that. right? Because like, like you said, not everything needs to be, you know, sometimes things, you know, it’s really about the content. Right. And, and you know, rough and ready is is, is more than okay. And then, you know, maybe if it’s like a featuring on the homepage, you know, it does, you know, need to stand up to the, to the quality or the design of the rest of the brand. Yeah. how do you think about that relationship in terms of the quality and. Setting the overall strategy around that. Is it just as simple as like mapping it out and fitting it to the place or, what have you learned there?
00:23:19 Jeff:
Yeah, what I’ve learned there is, and what I coach my clients on too, is also to think about what strategic growth initiatives of your company are you trying to support with the, these customer stories you’re creating, if the strategic growth initiative you’re trying to support is to position your company as a thought leader, creating and a great brand impression about your company, then yes, the highly produced, and I’ve seen some of your work.
It’s amazing. the. Produce work that you do. I mean, that makes an amazing brand impression on somebody. Then I’ll put that on your homepage, showcase that, play that at the beginning of your sessions at your user conference, play it at your company meetings It gives people Goosebumps.
It’s so powerful. some of the, highly produced stuff may not be as credible when you’re using it in place of a reference call. so this is where I see some people making the mistake. They’re trying to take the same vehicle and use it for all channels, because I paid this much money for it.
Let me just fire it everywhere. Where, where that more authentic. non-produced content might be a lot more effective in convincing when, when you’re using your, when you’re trying to use it, because you’ve asked a customer to answer the 10 or 15 most frequently asked questions on your reference calls and you’ve created a recorded reference.
And, and you’re now presenting. all those in those cases, the person’s job is not that they’re not looking to be entertained or for a brand impression, that person is looking to really get that crystal ball into what life as a customer is like. So they’re going to be more concerned about, is this addressing this concern I have, is it addressing this doubt?
If it doesn’t, it’s not going to be as effective in that case, it’s, it’s sort of, the substance is even more important than the style. And so there’s, there’s a place for everything, but, but the, to answer your question, it’s really what is the strategic growth initiative or the challenge in the market you’re facing that you’re trying to overcome with this customer story let that determine the format with how professionally produced it is versus how more authentic it is in and how you distribute it and there’s a need for everything. And as I said earlier, I mean it’s, and you know, too, but the customer voice, it’s, it answers questions and solves doubts at every stage of the buying cycle. From the very first awareness–it helps people kind of get a good feeling that other people have solved this problem, similarly–all the way through evaluation, through purchase, and then through post-sale.
00:25:50 Sam:
So true. And like you said, it’s really like a yes. And not like an either or right. it all comes back to the strategy. I’ve like, you know, for anyone listening. you know, such a salient point is like, you know, just like anything, you know, first it, you know, it pays to get really clear on, you know, what is the strategy and what are the key strategic initiatives.
And understanding where the gaps and where, you know, as you said, customer stories and customer content can fit in there. you mentioned reference calls a couple of times, and I want to dig into that a bit because it’s reference calls. I think. Sort of, interesting, you know, phenomenon where like that references don’t necessarily like to do them buyers, they salespeople, don’t like to give them out, you know, buyer, it’s kind of like inconvenient for everyone, but it’s sometimes, you know, helpful, I mean, in some situations for sure, but like at the same time, you know, I’m curious, just genuinely curious, like, do you guys think, and is it your goal somewhat to kind of. You know, I don’t want to say kill the reference call. That’s a little too dramatic, but like, you know, I, in to some extent, like, is that your goal and, Yeah.
00:26:59 Jeff:
Yeah, well, you never going to kill the reference call, right? Because there’s always going to be a need to either. Procurement requires the buyer to talk to three references, just to check the box or in some cases, there, there might be some serious concern that a buyer has where they need to run that by a few, or maybe it also depends on the state.
Your cup of lifecycle, your company is in right? The earlier stage you’re in the more people in the more innovative the solution you’re bringing to market versus kind of a legacy solution. The more they’re going to want to hear, how other people that have experimented and taken the plunge with something new, you know, again, If you’re selling to a total early adopter, they’re going to buy it without references.
Right. We’re talking to the people that aren’t really early adopters who need to hear the other people’s experiences. So, so, so that, again, you never going to kill the need for references, but you can greatly reduce them because salespeople cringe right. When they get the, when they’re asked for the references, because they know they’re going to lose some control here.
You never know what that customer is actually going to say. Did they have a bad day? Did they have a fight with their spouse last night, a Reno, they got to just be in a bad mood or they’re going to be in a great mood. And if they take two or three weeks off in times to align calendars to get them to take place.
So it’s basically putting a wedge in your. Sales cycle. It’s delaying it. It’s giving competitors an opportunity to get in there and it’s just, it’s making it really hard. And so if you can have this concept, I call it recorded references. but, but if you can find out, and this is one of the things we do with our clients, we find out what are those 10 or 15 most frequently asked questions on customer reference calls and.
Interview a few customers and ask them those 10 or 15 questions and answer them with discreet little video snippets and publish that on a, on something. Put that into the hands of your sales reps, right within Salesforce, where they can, or HubSpot, whichever, whatever CRM you’re using, you know, and allow your sales reps to try to use that now to deflect the need for live reference calls, because it’s going to do a number of things.
It’s going to allow the sales rep to respond right away when they get asked for the references and so that you don’t have that two or three week gap of scheduling. And so it’s going to give the customer some of that satisfaction of hearing. What other customers have to say. As I mentioned earlier, the second thing it’s going to do is it’s going to allow the sales rep to use those early.
In the sales cycle so that they can start to overcome doubts and earn brand preference earlier versus porting things until the end. And then, and then ultimately it’s going to be a better experience for your customers who are giving that reference content, because, and this has been my experience. I don’t know if you have it too, but, Position this as an opportunity to customers to do one of these recorded reference interviews that they’ll oftentimes say, you know, I like talking, I like doing reference calls because I like having conversations with customers.
But what I don’t like is having to answer the same 10 questions over and over and over again. So why don’t you just record me answering the vanilla questions and then I’ll jump on the call and answer those two or three additional questions. Okay. That are special, unique to this prospect because, because some people still like doing the reference calls because they’re expanding their network.
And so, so now you’re giving your customer a better experience because either they don’t have to do reference calls at all, or you, or you use them for other forms of advocacy, or when they do jump on calls to build their network. They’re there, they’re having a much richer, shorter, but richer conversation and more meaty where they’re not just regurgitating the same thing that they say everyday.
And it enough customers, I can’t say their name, but one customer in particular that that’s reduced the need for the live reference calls by 60. but there’s still that 40% there are now either shorter calls or they’re, you know, things that are checking the box or where somebody needs to dig deeper.
Or it might also be the case because somebody that when people ask for references, they always want it to be the same industry, the same company size, the same region, the same, this the same that, you know, same business model. So it has to be really similar. And sometimes you just don’t have that. The, you know, enough of those recorded references.
That fit every single permutation of selling situation that you might be in.
00:31:15 Sam:
Got it. Yeah. That makes complete sense. And so, so reference goals, they’re not going away. However, you know, it sounds like, the best practices and, and the future of customer advocacy is, you know, more of a reliance on evidence and, and relatively less of a need for, for reference. Right. is that, is
00:31:35 Jeff:
Yeah,
Yeah. Less of a need for that live one-on-one reference call because you lose control when you have to set those up. But, but also doing it in such a way that it’s, it’s making it more pleasant and enjoyable for your customers who are, who are participating in your reference program. I mean that that’s, that’s critically important too.
You don’t want to burn them out. You can’t go back to the same customer and have them do 10 reference calls. They’re going to finally say, don’t you have anybody else? I mean, am I the only one that does this? And for a lot of companies, they only have two or three customers that are willing to do reference calls.
I mean, what do you do in that situation? so tough. I mean, it’s, that’s why the, you know, the value of the work that you and I both do. I mean, it’s tremendous in, in helping reduce the need for these.
One-on-one reference calls, reduce it without eliminating it. I call it reference deflection.
Just like you have support deflection in the call center, you try to deflect calls to self service, same thing. You’re deflecting reference calls to self service. that’s my analogy.
00:32:35 Sam:
It’s a perfect analogy. And it’s, I think it’s very, it’s exactly in line with the really like overall macro trends of buyers, as well as which is of course self service. Right. you know, for, for any marketer marketing leaders, you know, customer marketers advocate, marketers, Or who are, listening to this and, and, maybe they’re, they, they love what they’re hearing, but they feel like, you know, men, like we need to get started.
We need to catch up, you know, H how should someone get started? You know, if they’re, they haven’t done a ton of, you know, customer stories, you know, and don’t have a very robust, sort of library, or practice yet of creating. you know, these, these customer stories.
00:33:22 Jeff:
Yep. Got it. Great question. I work with companies that are just starting all the time like that their, their, their, their first, D. Dipping their toe in the water of knowing that they need to do this, knowing that they need customer proof, but where do we start? usually where people do start, unfortunately, is okay, we’re going to follow the traditional mindset, which is to write a case study, you know?
And so, because nobody ever got fired for writing a case study. and, and there’s still so many executives and sales leaders, they still think that that’s The bright, shiny object that that’s still the, best you can do. They they’re probably that they’re not familiar with some of these better ways of doing things.
So a lot of times the marketers or sales enablement people, or even if it’s just very small companies, Did there the one person responsible for the whole go to market strategy. They’re getting this pressure from above to, to just write more case studies. But what I suggest they do is, I mean, I wouldn’t even start there because that’s too hard.
I would start with, you know, first of all, Even just ask around your company, the people that have been dealing with your early customers and find out what, you know, w w w where’s the rub, when we try to sell, what are the objections that frequently get raised? things like that and, and figure out, like, just come up with a list of like five.
Insights that if we could capture this in our customer’s voice, this would knock down this objection and accelerate sales cycles in this situation, or this would make these marketing campaigns that much more effective, or this would overcome this huge mindset, that people have that’s antiquated.
That keeps us from being ready to buy the solution that we offer. Right. If you can really focus in on something like that, and then. you work with a firm like me work with your firm, work with themselves, you know, do it themselves, you know, pick up the phone and call the customer and ask them a couple of questions and record the phone call.
Just get a few audio snippets, right? Because that’s going to allow you to prove to your management team that this stuff works right. Even if you started with recording an audio call. The phone call and gathered a few of these snippets with customers that are, that are sharing these insights that knocked down those biggest obstacles.
You’re you’re then going to see the needle move. And that’s really what you want to do. And by doing that, you’re going to have more confidence that this is the right angle. You’re going to learn more about your market because of the, what you, you know, the insights that you gather from your customers.
And you’re going to get more willingness from the people that own the purse strings for your company’s budget to say let’s let’s, put a little more gas into this, and that’s when they might be, you know, at that point, ready to more formalize the program and, you know, be more ready to work with testimonial hero or SlapFive, right.
When they’re ready to kind of step on the gas and, and do this in a more formalized way, more professional way and more scalable, repeatable. but I still think you can start. I have to say like, like I was just last week I was, I gave up or the week before, I think I gave a presentation at the HubSpot inbound conference on, and it was exactly this to small business owners who are HubSpot users and, And I had 150 emails afterwards from people because, asking like either for an offer that I had on best questions to ask or things, but they all kept saying this was so timely because we’re chartered with doing something in this space.
And we’ve never done anything here before. So, so if you do that, against just start by making sure you’re addressing some of the biggest challenges that you have, or the biggest mindset shifts that you need to make, get, just get some customer voice and start to use it and see how it and be agile about it.
Right. As you try it and learn, test it. if this is ineffective, then that wasn’t the right insight. the other thing that I can tell you is that with all the clients I work with, when they start to. These customer proof points and customer voice snippets into the market. In sales starts to use them.
Sales tends to learn even more what the real objections are or what the real fears and doubts are. And so, so it’s a great way also for you to see what’s working in helping accelerate sales cycles with which at the end of the day, you know, for, for a small company, just getting started is what you’re ultimately looking to do.
Right. You’re looking to bring on more customers faster. And so that’s just a quick way to get started.
00:37:31 Sam:
I love that. So true about smaller companies. They’re very revenue focused. They can’t afford to sometimes play the long game. So, in getting those quick wins with the customer stories, that that’s such a good point. Fantastic.
So, Jeff, where can people get in touch, and learn more about you, and learn more about SlapFive, which I highly recommend checking out. Where can people get in touch if they want to connect and learn more?
00:38:00 Jeff:
You can always find me at jeff@slapfive.com, J E F F, and SlapFive is spelled out, S L A P F I V E. I’m also Jeff Ernst on LinkedIn, if you want to check me out there or SlapFive.com.
If you’re intrigued by any of these ideas and things that I was sharing, or, as I said, I do have and eBook called From the Horse’s Mouth. It’s how to get your customers to share their voice, which is usually the biggest challenge that people have, especially when they’re first starting out. That’s usually the first hurdle. We could do a whole session just on that. Ping me if you want that, or if you want the thing I mentioned that I offered at the HubSpot session, which is The Best Performing Questions To Ask Your Customers, that’s also something I can send you.
If you want a copy of that, just email me a jeff@slapfive.com.
00:38:59 Sam:
Love it. Thanks so much, Jeff. This has been great. We’ll have to do a round two some time, and yeah, have a great rest of your day.
00:39:06 Jeff:
Alright, you too, Sam. Thanks for having me, and continued good luck with your podcast series.
00:39:11 Sam:
Awesome.
Well, folks, that was a fantastic episode with Jeff Ernst, CEO at SlapFive. So many notes there.
Taking a more surgical approach to your customer stories. Mapping out the questions, fears, and doubts. Thinking about those frequently asked questions buyers have. The value of authenticity and tone of voice, and audio and video. The fact of customer stories being one of those last true competitive advantages. And of course, the two-way exchange of value. Earned customer advocacy versus paid customer advocacy.
Fantastic episode. We’ll have links in the show notes.
This is the State of Customer Storytelling podcast, where we dive in and explore how you can make customer stories your competitive advantage.
If you have any guests that you want to see on the future episodes, just shoot me an email. My email is Sam@TestimonialHero.com.
Thanks so much, and we will see you in the next episode.
Harsha Kalapala is Sr. Director of Product Marketing & Brand at TrustRadius. TrustRadius is a marketing data platform and review site for business technology. TrustRadius provides reliably unbiased reviews, so buyers can make confident product buying decisions.
In this episode Harsha and I talk about B2B sales, and why customer storytelling is crucial for reaching and influencing buyers. We talk about how customers make their purchasing decisions, and how to market and position your brand to get more sales. Harsha and I also talk about the best ways to establish trust with buyers, and much more.
Harsha has worked for many years in B2B, SaaS and Enterprise software environments. He works with leadership at seed and growth-stage startups, as well as established companies and large corporations. Harsha helps companies improve their e-commerce, IT services, fintech, retail, content marketing, mobile, ed tech, social media and construction tech.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why video is the best medium for creating your marketing content
- The 5 stages buyers go through when making their buying decisions
- How to use negative product feedback to your advantage
- Why customer storytelling is so effective with today’s buyers
Links & Resources
- Testimonial Hero
- Accenture.com study
- Demandbase
- Terminus
- 6sense
- Alexandra McWethy
- Dave Gerhardt
- Drift
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Harsha Kalapala’s Links
- Follow Harsha on Twitter
- Follow Trust TrustRadius on Twitter
- TrustRadius
- TrustRadius: intent data page
- Email Harsha
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Harsha:
One of the things we miss is telling the human story. We talk about the brand. We talk about the company did this. Companies don’t do things, people do things. I think it’s important to put the people in the focus, and put the company in the background. It’s not like it’s not there, but I want to tell the story of Sam. Sam doing this, make Sam the hero.
People connect with people. They don’t connect with company.
00:00:28 Sam:
Hey, folks. Welcome to another great episode of the State of Customer Storytelling, the podcast where we examine how B2B marketing leaders can make customer stories your competitive advantage in your go-to market.
Our guest today is the fantastic Harsha Kalapala. He is the Senior Director of Product Marketing Brand at Trust Radius in Austin, Texas. He has a very wide breadth of experience having worked in B2B SaaS, enterprise, and with senior and executive leadership at really everything from the seed to growth stage, as well as large established companies and corporations, E-com, IT, FinTech, and also construction tech.
Harsha, welcome to the show.
00:01:17 Harsha:
Sam. It’s my pleasure to be here. I appreciate the very kind and generous introduction.
00:01:22 Sam:
Absolutely. Let’s just dive right into it. To kick us off, what’s the big deal with customer storytelling in B2B? Why do customer stories matter?
00:01:32 Harsha:
It’s a great question to ask, Sam. It’s a great question for every marketer to ask today. The fundamental premise of this conversation is: buyers are changing. Not just their mindset, but who they are is changing, and it’s changing rapidly. I’m talking about research, not just my opinion.
Recent studies that show that the majority of the buyers are now millennials; over 60% of them are millennials. As a result, the way they behave, the way you can expect the buyer to behave, is going to be different. The characteristics of millennials, as you can guess, is going to be different than the previous generation, from Gen-Xers and Baby Boomers.
The fact that they want to do their own research and they want to come to their own conclusion changes the way they behave. That changes the way marketers influence that behavior. So, most millennials want to self-serve; they trust their peers and their network’s point of view more than any other source out there.
That’s the big difference from the previous generations. Millenials don’t really look at traditional analyst reports, and when they do, they give it less weight compared to their peers’ feedback and their inner circle, and the next circle. They really rely on people like them to make decisions about what they’re going to purchase in general. It becomes even more focused when it comes to B2B software.
So, that’s an important underlying trend, and a lot of these people are self-educating before they even come talk to you. Research shows—this is a study from Bain that was recently published—shows 94% of buyers self-educate before they ever talk to you.
I’m giving you all these stats, but the premise of this, the underlying factor, is that buyers want to self-serve. They don’t want to talk to you. More than half of them typically make their make up their mind before they come talk to you.
If they ever talk to you right about half of them, don’t ever talk half of the buying group don’t ever talk to vendors, whether it’s sales people or marketers. So lot of that activity is happening in the dark, so to speak, And it’s, it’s really important for marketers to go beyond your traditional methods of reaching out to these folks and, really figure out some creative ways, some new age methodologies to reach these people who are not explicitly, using the they’re not using channels that are traditionally relied on by marketers.
And they’re not explicitly giving you their, hand raised intent that. I want to buy this stuff. So how do you, how do you even get on their radar? And when you do, how do you convince them that you are the, the right choice to be made? So the challenge is it’s tough, but it’s also different for the marketers today.
00:04:40 Sam:
I think, you know, some markers would say, yeah, no, totally agree. But like, I can do that, you know, with my own content or, you know, with our internal content, I guess, where do you see like the real. No customer contact continent in contrast with like, you know, your traditional marketing content.
00:04:59 Harsha:
Yeah. So, definitely you, you want to start with your own content. There is a lot that that is core to the story that you’re trying to tell, but the challenge with that, Sam is that. Yeah, it’s hard to keep up with with the content. It’s hard to keep it current and other aspect of, of millennials trusting their, their peers is also, they look for the more current information.
So whatever stories you create, whatever, testimonials or whatever you capture has to be kept fresh has to be kept current. And it’s not just about the, the timestamp. It’s the fact that your business model is constantly changing, right? It’s constantly evolving to the customer needs. And most companies, most tech companies for sure will agree with that fact because they’re constantly trying to keep up with the shifting trends in, in the, in the market and as a result, how their company.
Product portfolio evolves, how the use cases that they address evolve. So when so much evolution’s happening, you have to make sure that the story you’re telling through the customer’s voice is directly covering those use cases. And it’s directly addressing what your buyers want to and need to hear.
00:06:15 Sam:
So true. So true. And, I wanna drill down into the self-serve aspect, which I think. Really interesting in, in true. Do you think like, traditionally in B2B, we, for, especially for large purchases, like, right, like reference calls have been a staple, but I mean, let’s be honest, like they’re sort of bad for every, for everyone and you can burn out your references.
You can, I mean, I’m curious, like, do you think. Like if the future is like more evidence and like less reliance on references or we’ll reference calls, like, you know, always be as big of a thing. And actually, I don’t know. I’m curious if there’s any data on that. Like maybe the rise of evidence and the decline of, of reference, but yeah, I’d love to know if you have any thoughts or insight on that sort of dynamic.
00:07:03 Harsha:
Yeah, that’s a great question about reference calls. I didn’t see any particular research on that exact metric, but what I, what I will say is that. There is a, there is a place for reference calls, right? Like same, same as there is a place for analyst reports. It’s just that the way it’s been used, the frequency of its use is going down.
So it’s really important to think about it’s. Yes. And we have that. Okay. Some, especially when you go more enterprise, when you go more considered purchases, reference calls do become important to have in your back pocket. If, if your prospect really needs it, Also, you know, you only have so many favors to ask of customers, especially if you are a high ACV, high, average contract value business, you don’t have that many customers, every customer touch points important.
So you don’t, you wouldn’t want to waste those, those touch points. With shallow requests and multiple requests. So it’s really important to save those for your best business drivers. So having that reference, list is important. So I work for TrustRadius, right? And one of the features that we offered through our reviews is, or users to.
To also, they kind of check their check a box and the process to be hand-raisers they want to be a reference. So it’s an advantage bogging review. You wouldn’t get people automatically a list of people to pull from. and we do that because there is a need for it. And we want to serve that need and people are getting a lot of benefit from it because it takes a lot of energy, a lot of permissions and back and forth.
You know, you in your business, I’m sure you’ve experienced that as well to get the right people to say, okay, I’ll be a reference, but if. If you get those early on and have them as a, again, a thing in your back pocket that’s that would be great. But what you want today, Sam is reference at scale references that don’t necessarily have to be a one-on-one conversation, but they can be detailed enough that you could scale their use for multiple people, because it really answers all their questions that we’ve asked in a reference call anyway, and that comes from.
You know, maybe a little bias talking about this, but that comes from deep reviews. And that’s what we focus on frustrated is, and I love working this kind of a product because it solves a real existing and pertinent problem that it kind of goes back to that point that you don’t want to waste your valuable touch points, especially when each, each customer’s favors are limited.
So when you ask somebody for a review, for example, Make sure that ask is going to give you the best outcome, right? And in a written review format, you make sure that it’s deep enough the case of a testimony, your hero, your company, getting that in-depth story in that one, single touch is going to pay dividends over time.
It’s going to be, it’s going to be that depth that that really helps you out.
00:09:53 Sam:
That’s such a good point. It’s like, in terms of it’s like that almost like political capital that you have like a finite amount to spend. Right. And whether it’s, you know, review it’s like, don’t just ask for. Yeah, you have, you have one ask, so it’s like, don’t just ask for like a quote, an email, like get them to fill out an in-depth trust radius review.
Like, cause you don’t get to kind of go, you don’t often get to like go back to them. It’s like might as well do it. Right. And yeah. totally, totally agree. And, so let’s soon back out and in terms of, you know, just like, setting the strategy, right? Cause I think a lot of, you know, in, in until maybe a couple of years ago, It there wasn’t a, you know, as you mentioned, we’re seeing this shift where like the best marketers out there and the best B2B brands out there are really amping up the customer stories.
It’s becoming like a true competitive advantage, you know, using obviously, you know, platforms like trust radius, and, and, and frankly, you know, us as well, You know, how do you think about like setting a strategy? Like, know like a really popular way out there is just to do like a gap analysis.
Right. And it’s like, well, where are we going? Like, what are our priorities? Do we have, and then where are the gaps in customer stories? but yeah, I’d love to hear from like, how do you think about, or what would you tell, like a marketer who’s like listening to this and it’s like, okay, I’m sold. Like we can’t afford to sit on the sidelines and just, you know, kind of let customer stories happen as a total ad hoc process, you know, w which was good enough, you know, a couple of years ago, that was good enough, but like, not, not really anymore.
Like, what would you tell a marketer, a B2B software marketer. Who’s like trying to figure out like how to set a strategy.
00:11:34 Harsha:
Yeah, a great question. And, you know, Even even myself in my past, I’ve done this before, so I totally understand why it happens, but marketers, bigger challenge is that we treat these as I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it sort of a thing. and we create some, you know, we work hard. To create some testimonials.
We go on a run to, to really reach out to our customer base, cover, cover our bases on how we tell the story. And they’re like, okay, we got it. We’re good to go for another year or two. Right. That just is a strategy that doesn’t work anymore. Again, kind of expect to the fact that we have more of those buyers becoming, are, are millennials.
So they are expecting. Relevance and, and social proof and recency. So you want to make sure that, that combined with your shifting story, as we talked about before, it’s important to cover those use cases. It’s important to make sure that you have sort of. Testimonial review strategy as an ongoing thing, you can’t have that be a Tylenol sort of a thing.
You want to make that a vitamin for your business, right? You want to keep having that, repository of, of customer proof, customer validation, and you, you really, the best strategy for marketers today is not to just write great copy, but cheat use the. and the words of your customers, that’s the kind of language that they talk anyway.
That’s, that’s the language your buyers trust and hear. And, that’s the one big fundamental difference that smart marketers are shifting to today is becoming a good copywriter is about listening to what your customers are saying and repackaging that in the same language, but with probably a little bit more clarity and with a little bit more focus for the rest of your audience.
So they can just really, See what they’re about to sign up for. And it’s just the cheat here is to just make it true. It’s make it believable because it is the truth and it is coming from people like them.
00:13:40 Sam:
I love that. And I love the vitamin versus, you know, Tylenol analogy to me. It’s like, it’s like that, that Maxim, what is it like an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, you know? You know, an ounce of, just, having a actual process and thought out is worth, you know, is way better than all of a sudden looking at your competitor’s website.
And when they do a redesign and realizing that you’re way behind on customer stories, and like now you’ve got to scramble, right? So like it’s, it’s such a good, such a great analogy and such a good point.
00:14:14 Harsha:
We really have to rethink our, our approach. You know, the, the traditional approach is, the old way is basically coming up with a narrative that you want to tell your prospect base and then finding the customer testimonials and finding the, the social proof to support that.
Instead the, the tools that you have at your disposal as a marketer, the much better strategy is to start with what customers are saying. Really have that, that ongoing supply of customer. Is what’s going to help you to give you. Material to pull from, right. use that to help define your, your story and your narrative.
And then you don’t have to really go fish for something that, to make a square peg fit in a round hole. So it’s all in the same vein. It’s all in the same. Storyline. So starting with the customer input, starting with a repository of their feedback and building your brand narrative based on that is just going to make everything fit like a glove.
And it’s going to make, again, it goes back to telling the, telling a true story, telling it like it is just with a little bit more clarity.
00:15:25 Sam:
That is such a good point and very actually counter intuitive. Right too. And honestly like a contrarian. And as you know, in, in a really good way, it’s like, you know, it’s almost an inversion Write of, you know, the old way. It’s like, let’s, let’s lock her up. Let’s, let’s go on. let’s go on offsite and spend two days figuring out like, you know what we think, you know, our story should be.
Or, you know, in let’s obviously there, there is, that’s valuable in some respects, but like, it sounds like what you’re advocating, which makes a ton of sense is like, you know, let’s also involve the customer in that take like a bottom up approach and, shortcut all the time that we would be spending and frankly get something that is way more real and powerful.
00:16:11 Harsha:
Yeah, absolutely. And in my experience, I’ve when I created copy, without that perspective, when I created the messaging, it turns out to be just missing the mark because I’m too close to the business. You know, myself, the executive team, the product team are all too close to the business and we’ll end up creating a story that.
Just hard to avoid this, but it’s going to be biased towards our point of view. And it’s going to be filled with jargon no matter how much we try to avoid it, because we’re going to use our words to describe it. But what we mean when we, again, flip the script and start taking the customer’s feedback and how they think about your product, how do they talk about it?
How do they describe it to their friends at a bar? You turn that. Into you just flip that around. It makes a strategy, a lot easier for you to, to, to resolve and to kind of figure out, but it also makes it resonate with your base more than you would imagine.
00:17:03 Sam:
So true. Yeah. As, you can’t read the label from inside the jar and almost every case. So yeah, that, that is such a, such a good point. I want to move on to, How do you actually identify, you know, which customers to feature because, obviously at a smaller startup stage, it could just be obvious, you know, you know, all your customers as, as the marketer, you know, at other stages, like how do you think about kind of navigating that situation?
When, you know, as, as the marketing leader, you may not have. Direct visibility into, you know, the, the health or just like the, all the nuances of where customers are. Like, you know, if, if I’m a marketer I’ve said, I want to make, you know, for, video testimonials this year and, and create like 15, you know, third-party reviews this quarter.
Like, how do I actually go about, you know, or how might I go about Identifying like who the candidates are for for those, you know, advocacy activities.
00:18:01 Harsha:
Yes, I’m very passionate about this topic. Actually. I’m glad you brought it up because there could be so many ways to spin a story. And like, like we discussed earlier, a lot of times it would be biased based on your perspective. That’s where it would like to likely to start, but it is very, very important for a business, especially these days to really solidify your, your personal.
And your buyer persona your audience for who you’re trying to tell the brand story and the product story. Right. And not just like you started with the persona you started with defining. Who they are, what do they care about? Not just like in terms of business needs, but emotional needs, you know, people make decisions with their heart, not with their minds.
So really understanding that perspective and what makes them tick. But then also the next step is clearly defining your ICP, your ideal customer profile. there’s a lot of, Hey, what about, we’re going to miss this, this type of buyer? Are we going to. Appeal to that type of buyer. It’s, it’s easy to sprawl and it’s easy to kind of have those executive opinions kind of try to address all the needs.
What’s really important to define that ICP that you can’t afford to miss that if you’re trying to talk to everybody, you’re gonna talk to nobody. So, understanding that focus and then. Connecting that with the use cases for those ITPs right. What, what problems are they trying to solve? Make sure that you address that at a consultative level.
And, you’re bringing the test. And again, it depends on where you’re putting these quotes and testimonials and reviews and whatever it is. If you’re putting it on the homepage, there is a difference. Type of story you want to put there. You want to talk about kind of top funnel problem resolution perspective.
You don’t want to go get weed into the product or get, into the weeds about, you know, how things work. Let’s talk about the why at the beginning and, and the, and even the ROI and the impact that it’s made on an organization. So there’s a place for different kinds of testimonials. You want to start there, you want to select those kinds of testimonials, find your gaps for your ICP.
Do we have the stories or is there a target mid-market or enterprise, if it is, do we have enough stories there that support the use cases that they really need to solve? Or if we’re going downmarket is our growth strategy. Do we have enough of those brands that, this ideal customer profile is going to resonate with?
At the end of the day, you want your audience to not only see that people are getting value, that your product solves the problem, but they also want to see themselves in those shoes. So you want to put up those brands and those, titles and people that your ideal customer is going to really identify with.
00:20:44 Sam:
I feel like we’re tying everything together from the previous points now as well. Like, you know, and you mentioned, you know, we didn’t specifically hit on that, that importance of customer storytelling throughout the entire buyer journey. Right. And that’s such a good point because. Going back to the self, you know, buyers, millennial buyers.
Self-serving, you know, I, I feel like customer customer stories, it used to be like, you know, maybe three, four years ago. And sometimes some companies is still, is it used to be like, okay, like the buyer gets to the certain checkpoint later in the buying process. And then, you know, we pull out the case studies to kind of.
Push them over the hump or kick them across the goal line or whatever, you know, metaphor, idiom that, that people use. But the point is like, I, it sounds like, when you’re saying it’s like, it’s really like, that’s very much the old game. And like the new game is, is not, oh, like the new game is, customer storage on throughout the whole buyer journey.
But then there’s the nuance to it, right? Like, as you said, it’s like, you have to consider, you know, people at the top of the funnel. They have very different, you know, concerns. then, you know, someone who actually like, people at top of funnel, they, they don’t usually even know that they have, they might not even admit that they have a problem yet.
Right. So like, it sounds like that is, that is a key thing. It’s like this whole, you know, buyer journey and understanding that in the light of what storage you put, where.
00:22:06 Harsha:
Yeah. There’s absolutely a very well-known age old construct that still is true today on, on buyer awareness state is you start with unaware. You might not even realize you have a problem, like you said, and then there’s pain aware, you know, you have a problem, but you don’t really know that there are solutions of products for it.
You’re not even thinking about that. You’re just researching. A topic to see how you can solve that problem. And then you are solution aware, you know, that there are different products out there, but really may not be aware of your specific product. And then product aware, aware of your specific product didn’t make a decision yet.
And then fully aware. They probably really have done all their research. They’re just trying to make a logistical call it the. So there’s all these stages. and you want to address the stories in this awareness stages, but I’ll tell you Sam, like my perspective of the funnel has changed quite a bit in the last few years.
We know now that buyer journey is not linear. It’s not linear anymore. We say, but I argued probably has never been that late. we just like to put it in a nice clean diagram, like a serious decisions funnel or something, but that’s not the case anymore. When I work a lot with customers who use ABM platforms like Demandbase Terminus, 6 cents.
And what we’re seeing is in that, the way that the, the buyer journey is tracked people jump back and forth and those awareness stages all the time, and the way it’s scored is, is, is different in each of these platforms, but people take their own kind of journey and it’s just not linear.
So when we create stories, when we create, you know, bring the customer voice to our story, we’ve got to create a journey where people can hop around and self-serve, again, they’re not going to go through the funnel that we want them to go through. In general, we can say, okay, this is top of funnel awareness, mid and bottom, but.
People, you know, are smart and savvy today. And they have information at their fingertips and so many places that they can learn. they’re going to pick their own path and we have to, the best we can do is be genuine and recognize those, stages of awareness of your product and your solution and bring the customer voice forward.
Do tickets.
00:24:19 Sam:
A simple, but incredibly. Insight like, you know, the buyer journey isn’t like those funnels or those, it’s not that clear cut, even though we, you know, you, if you Google buyer journey, you know, that’s what you get in Google image search, but not
00:24:34 Harsha:
And loops and goes around.
00:24:36 Sam:
It’s more of like a, maybe like amaze or like just a complete, you know, scribble and then there’s.
Yeah. well at that point, Let’s talk about a big challenge that, you know, getting approvals, right? Like that’s a big, you know, thing that every, all marketers have to deal with it, you know, whether it’s it’s a. specifically approvals for participating, you know? so it’s like, whether it’s asking for, you know, a review, a third-party review, like on trust radius, whether it’s asking for a video testimonial, like Testimonial Hero, or a reference call, there’s always that sort of, in delicate balance to, you know, get those agreements right.
And, what kind of tips or perspective do you have to offer there? you know, for, for marketers who maybe haven’t had as much experience in with.
00:25:24 Harsha:
Yeah, Sam, I would say that the most important thing that we forget the most important thing about a story is the story itself. We put too much weight on getting people’s names and company names and. getting the full identity and I’m all about it. I think it would be great if we get that, but it’ll also limit how many stories we can capture.
So just focus on getting the story from, let’s say you go to a big name company like IBM or Dell or something like that. And you want to try and to get, trying to get approval from a, from a big brand takes time and it takes kind of layers of approvals. maybe put that in a pastor, on a, on a slower track.
But first thing you can get is I can get this quote from a person at this company that I can say fortune 100 company or something like that. And here is the title of that person. Here’s what they said as a buyer. That’s more important to me that it’s a verified, review or, or, or feedback from the right person.
It matters less. It matters, but it matters less or exactly the name of the person. And so that’s the way I think about it. That’s the way I’ve learned that let’s get it quickly and then get more kind of layers around that testimonial. But, it is really important to focus on getting as many stories as you can.
And again, I think it comes down to the truth. We, we focus a lot on the truth. That trust rate is that is kind of the north star for us. And you’re our compass. So to speak, you know, We a lot of our reviews have the positive and negative, right? Even if it’s like a 10 out of 10 review, you still gonna have the we’re, we’re gonna push for the reviewer to give us a negatives as well.
Everything has a pro and con because it is important to pull out the truth. And we encourage this with our customers where, you know, we have a badge called a true kind of a true certification. That is given to customers who really are not cherry picking their reviews, that they put it out there. They put it on there in product for people to just kind of go give it, not just connected to good experiences all the time, put it on their website.
So when you try to get that kind of a truth, then you’re going to find. Good input coming out of it. And customer testimonials are not just about marketing. Lot of the value can also be, it’s just, you’re listening to your customer in that process. You’re capturing what they’re saying and using it for marketing, but a lot of our customers use it for product feedback.
They use it for, customer success processes, improving it. They use it for ways to improve themselves. So, I would say. When you seek a customer testimonial, seek it from the place of getting better as a company, as a brand, the secondary, outcome would be putting the story out there. But if you seek it as getting true input, then you’re going to get really, really good material that chicken.
00:28:20 Sam:
That that’s such a good, good tip. And, you know, it’s, it’s common sense. Right. And it’s just being genuine and, and coming from the right place in which I think everyone wants to do. but maybe they’re, you know, maybe. It takes a lot of confidence and courage at the same time. Right. It’s kind of a vulnerable right.
To, to approach a customer like that. And, yeah, that’s a great, great point that we should all, you know, remind ourselves that like it’s, it’s okay to come from that place. And like, you know, we want the good and the bad we want the, the truth.
00:28:53 Harsha:
And going back to your original questions, how about getting approvals? I think taking this path of seeking the truth is going to be a lot more easier because. A lot of the time, a hesitancy and approval from a company is like, is this review too biased? Or is this quote too? Like, is it going to put me in, in a tough spot as a brand because we’re representing our brand because we want, we want to tell the truth.
And when you’re letting people tell the truth, it’s much easier to get approval, no matter what it might be, how you use it in your marketing is really up to you. Getting that out of your customers and really listening is probably the, the path of least resistance to get approval internally and externally.
Hey, we’re looking for feedback. We’re opening our ears, you know, one map two years, one mouth, right? So, listening more and being able to, open up that kind of a mindset within your internally within your org. But also the way you ask for that is going to get us more volume that we can work with.
00:29:51 Sam:
Yeah, but that that’s so true. And, let’s, let’s switch gears to talk about like the different formats and, you know, the pros and cons of, of, of each perhaps, and kind of where you see the space. how do you think about, you know the different, you know, mediums and formats for, you know, customer storytelling, I, you know, specifically with the main, you know, big three being, video testimonials third-party, you know, reviews, and then, you know, the old classic one, which is that the written case study.
00:30:23 Harsha:
Great question. I think it’s important for us to think about customer proof as a portfolio. Of different types of acids. I think video is the most powerful, because of how much empathy it has and how much, you know, we talked about this earlier is. It the, the most important thing about any stories to get your prospect to resonate that, whether it is through a title or whether it’s through a relatable company, but when you put a video on it, like it really adds that human dimension, right?
Like a quote, a written quote, you don’t, you don’t see the face. I mean, you can put a picture there, but you don’t see the person behind that. It is, it has its purpose. and so does video like video, doesn’t always replace a written quote because not everybody has that medium to play a sound and watch a video, but it is, I would say whenever we can get a video testimonial.
It can spin off a lot of things. You can take that video testimonial and convert it to a quote. You can take that convert to audio clip like that is the mother of all right. Like we had a webinar the other day. we recently launched a partnership with sixth sense and we did a webinar with bringing two customers onto it along with 6 cents.
So it was four of us having a conversation and it turned out to be a fantastic webinar with. 90 plus percent of the people who attended the webinars stayed almost to the end, which you don’t see happen very much, unless it’s a very engaging conversation. So at the end, we have this video recording, we are slicing it up.
We are creating audio clips, video clips. you know, little things that sales can use, we can use in social. There’s just so much you can do with one asset. So starting there is always very beneficial when you can, when you can get your hands on it. And especially, I love the kind of conversations where it’s not just me talking to customers or customers, just having a monologue.
I love the conversations where two customers are having a diet. About your brand and you’re just there to facilitate the conversation. Those are genuine trustworthy, and they bring out insights that like you don’t even imagine to ask as a biased persona in that conversation.
00:32:47 Sam:
That. Yeah. so much to unpack there. I mean, that. The video, being the, sort of like ultimate medium, where you can kind of spin off all these different, taxed, audio, et cetera. And then the, the customers talking to customers, how do you facilitate that?
Like, is that, you know, something that happens at a, you know, usergroup or advisory board or the kind of digital or remote version of that? how does a marketer who wants to get those conversations going kind of facilitate.
00:33:15 Harsha:
Yeah, great question. It’s a challenge for a lot of companies. the, the more siloed. As teams within the org, the harder it is, with us, we’re a very tight knit, nimble team. So like I’m involved in customer success conversations all the time. It’s not, we don’t plan for it. We just put ourselves in positions where.
Happenstance. We hear something even like, let’s say you and a customer success colleague are listening to the same conversation you would hear and capture different things because you’re come from different perspectives. and basically as a marketer, inserting yourself into those conversations and not waiting for things to come to you, I think is the best approach to getting your hands on those, those really juicy and helpful customer clips.
For example, if you go on TrustRadius intent data intent data is one of our big initiatives that really is driving a lot of value for our customers and growth for our company today. If you go to our company website on under intent data, every audio clip you see in there was not planned. It was with Alex.
McWethy one of, or one of our customers and the demand gen leader. I was just having a conversation with her. I was part of a customer success call the last five, 10 minutes. I asked, Hey Alice, can I ask you some questions about how you think about intent data? And she was just having conversation with me.
It’s a bad quality video. And we’ve spent, this is another thread. We spend too much time thinking about quality. I think it is helpful, but what’s more important is the quality of the conversation. Right? And I just took those clips and they’re three or four of those all over our website. It tells a story perfectly.
So putting yourself in situations where you can grab those. And they’re not as planned and Alex at the end of the call was like, well, I’m happy to rerecord this. If you want like a more cleaner conversation, I’m like, no, this is genuine. This is perfect. We’re just going to use this. and even, you know, I asked you Sam, before this call, like, Hey, I don’t have it.
I only have a MacBook pro camera. Is that good enough? And your response was exactly on the same lines. That’s, it’s great if you have a good camera, but what’s more important as a conversation and the value in the story that we get from it.
00:35:28 Sam:
So true.
Terms of, the so third-party reviews and actually versus, you know, the case studies, right? Like the written case study eyes. So like for us, you know, we don’t actually do any written case studies. We have found that third-party reviews like, like trust, radius and video testimonials are basically all we need.
I mean, that could change, but like, that’s been, been great for us. I sort of feel like, you know, I’m sure there’s a, still a place for, you know, written case studies, but I do think there’s probably like I need to evolve them. Right. what I’m genuinely curious, like, what are your thoughts there?
Obviously, maybe a little biased with trust radius, but like, what are your thoughts on like, you know, what is the, what is the place of like the kind of, the written case study nowadays, and, and if it’s, if it’s going to be still be relevant, You know, is it still relevant? And if it’s going to be relevant, how does it change?
Because like, let’s be honest. Like a lot of these PDF case studies are becoming, you know, if they’re still done the way they’re done five years ago, they’re they’re completely relevant. Right.
00:36:36 Harsha:
Yeah. I mean, I fall asleep reading most case studies, right? Like. That’s that’s the challenge of bringing up is case studies. Can’t similar to the buyer journey. You can’t do the same thing we used to do and be effective with it. Like we got to rethink case studies, white papers, all these things, they apply more to some industries like more technical it or research-based industries.
People are looking for some of those, you know, factual knowledge, less opinions, but case studies end up being more opinions to it. More it’s ended up being how you tell your story. I think there’s a couple of things there. The main focus is, should be telling the story in the customer’s point of view.
One of the things we miss is telling the human story. We talk about the brand. We talk about the company, did this companies don’t do things. People do things. I think it’s important to put the people in the. And put the company in the background. So it’s not like it’s not there, but the story I want to tell the story of Sam, I don’t want to tell the story of Testimonial Hero, right.
It’s Sam doing this, make Sam the hero and people connect with people. They don’t connect with companies. So it was important for us to bring those forward in stories. And I love seeing that when, when I see your video testimonials, you guys produce, you have a lot of focus on the human and their success story in the background of the company, which is what people want as a buyer.
Like when I, when I’m looking at it as a prospect, the empathy that I want to feel is that I can do what this person’s doing. I can be a hero. Right. so that’s what we want to make sure we don’t miss when we capture these stories. And the same thing applies to case studies as well. A lot of case studies tend to be dry because they talk about just the out, like, you know, your traditional business school format, context, action result.
Great. That’s good. But don’t leave the human out, put the human back into the story. And I start most of my case studies. this person is at this role at this company. And here’s the challenge that they were trying to solve at the time when they started talking to him. So straight.
And here’s how they went and solved that problem. So your just a, it’s a, it’s a hero’s journey, right? You guys do this in your storytelling as well. And the hero’s journey is not just limited to video testimonials and, and marketing it. in general, it’s it should be applied to all aspects of marketing.
That includes how you ride your case studies, and that will resonate with your audience, which again, connects back to the millennial audience. Who’s looking for more truth. Human marketing, less jargon. And, that’s what kind of brings all your marketing materials to be in unison and really resonate with who you’re trying to.
00:39:22 Sam:
Yeah. And I think that, yeah, that exactly connects back to the buyers, the whole like buyers, your journey in. Because I’m at least speaking for, for us and, and video testimonials, like, I love telling that the human story but that’s exactly why we create, you know, multiple versions of the video for different, you know, attention spans, right?
Cause like it can actually take, you know, 30, 45 seconds to, you know, set the. set the context around that human story. And if someone is super early on in the funnel and they don’t even have that problem awareness, they may not stick around. Right. that may be early on, might be a better time for the 32nd, you know, video testimonial.
That’s more problem specific. Right. So like, it’s such a good point and it ties back. To that customer journey and the way I think of it as like, as the buyer goes through the journey, you know, even though it’s not linear, you, you sort of earn, you know, more of their attention, but the longer they go through it, right. Like we think of it as like, Expect them to consume as much, you know, content, you know, early on. Right. So like we don’t, that’s why we have, you know, the 32nd testimonial version early on.
But yeah. Do you think of it to that extent? Like how you kind of have to like earn their trust and earn their attention and therefore, like, you know, as, as it proceeds and therefore the they’ll consume more of your customer content.
00:40:45 Harsha:
Yeah, earning people’s trust and intention, I think is the, the core of marketing in general. Right? If you take a very simple. Use case like writing copy for a webpage or a case study. and very many leaders have said this in marketing. And I love hearing this more and more in our space right now, but the goal of a headline is to get you to read the next line.
And the goal of that next line is get to read the next line. And so on Dave Garrett talks about this. He’s a, he’s a, chief brand officer now at drift. And like, I, I, that I think is super true. Like when you’re trying to get people’s attention, the way to tell a story is to get that progressive trust and that build curiosity, but also give them value in each thing that they read.
And that translate is not just a copywriting, but the way you tell a video story, the way. Tell any kind of a marketing narrative is people’s attention is really short. Sam, as you know, there’s so much going on so much to consume so many distractions with an information heavy world today, you can’t keep people’s attention.
Unless you build a strong story now that doesn’t always mean brevity. and brevity doesn’t always mean being concise as not being short, right? Being concise meanings, telling the story in a shortest way, you can tell while being effective. So. there’s, you know, I forget who said this, but there is no such thing as too long of a copy only too boring of copy.
Right? Like you can write a half page paragraph that I can’t even get through. or you can write a seven page case study. That’s just like I’m turning pages. Cause this is really interesting. Right? You’re you’re speaking my language. You’re telling me what I want to hear. You’re solving my problem.
So it really kind of goes back to, Earning their trust step-by-step and keeping them engaged through the journey. And the best way we can do that is, again, going back to truth, going back to genuine storytelling and I’m using the customer’s voice in that, because that’s what they want to hear. That’s what’s interesting.
Not what you want to say. They want to hear what their peers want to say.
00:42:50 Sam:
So true. And so if I’m a marketing. And I’m like, okay, great. Like I want to like catch up, you know, I want to like make up some ground here and, and get my company, you know, in, in a place where customer stories are, are not just a neutral, they’re a true kind of competitive advantage. bring us home.
Like where should I start? If I’m that, that marketer, you know, how can I kind of get started?
00:43:13 Harsha:
Yeah. I think the best way to get started Sam is to go find. Your customer voice through one-on-one conversations, right? Still get warmed up, start jumping into customer success, conversations and calls. Start jumping on sales calls. And just for us to be a fly on the wall, speak up, have a conversation.
Then you’ll start to understand your customer’s perspective, where they’re coming from at the same time as a, as a company, and a brand and a product you want to build some of this. Your review presence is one channel, right? Like, yeah, I’m going to talk about it. I work at TrustRadius and I live in this world, but I really stay in this world because I see this changing the way buyers buy and how vendors sell without having, without having friction.
Right? Like there’s going to be a better match when you connect the dots for them. So finding that voice through your customer testimonials, and we always advocate presence on multiple review sites, right. It’s not just like, Hey, only come to TrustRadius that that’s not how buyers buy. They go shop around.
But what’s when, when it comes to picking who you’re going to ask for your content first, it kind of goes back to what was talked about in the beginning, which is you have very limited favorites you can ask from customers. So how are you going to use those favors? You’re going to ask them for, Hey, can you give me a rating on this side and that side and that side, by the way, there’s another side that popped up.
Before you do that, you want to make sure that you capture the value that they can give you. So get depth with first touch. So, being able to pull those conversations in creative process for you to drive some reviews by yourself and going to a vendor like TrustRadius and, and working with them can help you accelerate that.
But you want to start things, seed things so you can get close to customers. You can, you can understand. you can start to bring in the language into your own storytelling, and then scaling that is where you might need help, but starting, it is really all in your hands as well.
00:45:15 Sam:
I love that. And, and yeah, I mean, personally speaking, like one of my favorite things about, review sites first, it’s direct from the voice of the customer. Right? Like, and I think, you know, as a lot of buyers know when they read a, a written case study, it’s, it’s been massaged a lot, you know what I mean?
Maybe even just by the legal team of the. Testifying, you know, party, but yeah, I think that that direct, you know, that direct voice is incredibly valuable for not only, you know, us to understand, you know, for copywriting as we talked about and, and, and our narrative, but also, you know, for prospects.
Right.
00:45:53 Harsha:
That’s one avenue, right? We talked about the importance of getting high quality testimonials, right? The video review we talked about is the mother of all testimonials, because it can be translated to so many other mediums. Find your evangelists. Find your best customers across use cases across the verticals that you serve, and go have a deep conversation with them.
See what you can capture, and see what you can spin off. We signed up to work with you guys Testimonial Hero because being a testimonial company, it’s still hard for us to get that kind of high quality video. We don’t specialize in video. We do produce a lot of video reviews and video content, but it’s not like how you guys produce it.
That is really powerful for marketing. So, I would really recommend finding the customers that are your biggest evangelists and capturing them. Full narrative on video, which will really give you a great start for marketing. Because again, video converts to text, converts to audio, video clips, social, email, sales, whatever you want. You can take one conversation and spin it off into a set of assets that gives you a great post.
00:47:12 Sam:
Well, fantastic, Harsha. How can people get in touch with you if they want to connect and learn more?
00:47:17 Harsha:
Yeah. You can always reach out to me on LinkedIn. I’m very active on LinkedIn. I love the platform, the conversation that happens there. So, definitely look me up on LinkedIn. Just search my name, and there’s not very many of me on there, luckily, so, hopefully you can find me.
Or my email is Harsha.Kalapala@trustradius.com.
So, that’s simple.
00:47:39 Sam:
Fantastic. Well, thanks so much, Harsha. This has been an absolute pleasure. So many great insights here. We’ll have to do it again sometime.
00:47:47 Harsha:
Absolutely. I love being on the show. It’s a big honor to be one of your first guests. So, thank you. Thank you for inviting me, Sam.
00:47:55 Sam:
Awesome. Well, that was a fantastic episode, folks, with Harsha Kalapala. So many good insights there. That is one I will be listening to again, right after this.
I think some of the key things to underscore the importance are, first and foremost, defining your ICP, getting clear on your ICP.
Then, going to your customers and letting their real voice inform so much of your strategic narrative for product marketing and copywriting. Lots of good points around the buyer’s journey not being linear, and the need to self serve for buyers today.
Thanks for listening. As always, this is Sam, from Testimonial Hero. We look forward to another episode soon. If you have any other guests you would recommend that you want to hear from, just shoot me an email. It’s sam@testimonialhero.com.
Until next time, this has been the State of Customer Storytelling.
Nick Venturella is a singer, songwriter, and entertainer. You’ll find Nick playing at coffeehouses, corporate events, and other local venues. Nick has been performing professionally since 1994. He's also an instrumentalist and producer.
As an entrepreneurial musician, Nick learned the fundamentals of marketing, writing, and design. Since then he’s been helping others with their marketing, and scaling their businesses. Nick helps businesses build appropriate, win-win, human-first relationships, and achieve their desired results.
Nick and I talk about ways to increase your B2B sales. Nick shares his strategies for building and scaling customer loyalty, and how to win dedicated customer advocates for your brand. We also talk about how to get everyone in your organization on board with your B2B marketing program, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to foster brand loyalty among your B2B customers
- A great way to increase sales among your existing customers
- Why customer storytelling is so effective at increasing B2B sales
Links & Resources
- Ceridian
- G2
- TrustRadius
- Email Sam at Testimonial Hero
Nick Venturella’s Links
- Nick Venturella’s LinkedIn
- Nick’s blog
- Nick’s Etsy shop
- Nick’s website
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Nick:
I am often looking for validation from someone else who has already bought from that company, who can share their experience, and whether or not they’re having success. Is what they bought providing the solution to the problem that they had? Storytelling helps lend so much credibility, because you’re hearing from a peer, versus the organization telling you how great it is.
00:00:31 Sam:
Welcome to the State of Customer Storytelling.
My guest today, is Nick Venturella.
Nick is an award-winning advocate marketer, and when he’s not doing advocate marketing, he’s also a musician entrepreneur. Seriously, you should check him out. He has an amazing business upcycling guitars. More on that later, but he’s currently the Customer Engagement Operations Manager at Ceridian, which is a global human capital management software company with over 6,000 employees.
So, quite a large company, and Nick is responsible for their customer engagement and advocacy program.
Nick, welcome to the show.
00:01:17 Nick:
Thank you. Thanks for having me, Sam. I really appreciate it.
00:01:20 Sam:
Absolutely, excited to chat. Why don’t we just start it off? Let’s talk about customer advocacy. If someone isn’t really familiar with customer advocacy, because on one hand, it’s a longstanding practice, but it does feel like it’s gaining. It feels like we’re in a bit of a Renaissance right now.
So, if someone isn’t familiar with customer advocacy, let’s start it off there. Tell us a little bit about what is customer advocacy, and why does it matter so much?
00:01:53 Nick:
Yeah. One of the easiest ways to think about customer advocacy, especially for anyone who’s not familiar with that terminology, I think more people are probably familiar with word-of-mouth marketing.
I always use the movie analogy. I saw a movie on Netflix. Totally loved it. Thought of a friend who has similar interests who’d probably like it. I tell them about it. They go watch it. That’s word-of-mouth marketing happening, as an example.
So, in terms of advocacy, and how that relates to a business, is it’s really the discipline of building word-of-mouth marketing, and fostering brand loyalty among customers at scale. It’s using mechanisms and things to really do that on a large basis with lots of customers, all moving in a direction where they have brand loyalty, and they’re talking about What’s good.
Sometimes not so good, but that’s real, which is also important. The idea is to foster enough advocates who talk about the positive things over the negative things, and that that wins out. You can think of Apple as a company that has fanatics, that wait in line for the next gadget and whatever else.
It’s really about them, and what it means to them. They’re willing to promote and advocate on behalf of that brand because they love the products so much. The idea is that you’re fostering a relationship with customers that’s mutually beneficial and a partnership with them to the point that they want to sing your praises, and talk about what you’d do for other people they know, or others in a counterpart role, who might be looking to make a purchase decision from maybe your company.
So, I think that’s the key; it’s brand loyalty and fostering word-of-mouth marketing to that scale, and getting it to a point where customers who choose to advocate on behalf of a brand are choosing to do it because they want to, not because they’re necessarily rewarded or anything like that. There’s some authenticity in that.
00:04:25 Sam:
I love that. And there’s so much to impact there. One thing I want to drill down into is that the customer kind of storytelling segment of advocacy, right? So it sounds like to me, you know, customer advocacy is, is a large encompassing umbrella term and, and customer stories are, are one part of customer advocacy. yeah. Tell tell me a little bit more about that. Like how do you see that and how do you see, you know, customer stories within the advocacy umbrella and what are the other, you know, some of the other key, you know, buckets, that you also, think about
00:05:10 Nick:
Absolutely. I, I kind of look at it this way. I’ll I’ll, I’ll I’ll step back for a second. So I think of customer marketing and advocacy as an overall marketing discipline, it’s it’s a certain skill set. It takes a certain focus. It’s a little bit different than Account-based marketing, ABM or lead-generation Marketing. It has aspects of all of those in it as a broad umbrella term. But the focus is really to be customer-centric to, to grow and build advocates over time, to help your customers be successful so that they want to advocate On behalf of your brand. storytelling absolutely is a, is, is a key element within that and is necessary because what it does is it provides credibility for your brand because it is another customer who is like, if I’m in, in the market to potentially purchase, make a purchase, whether it’s B2C or B2B it doesn’t really matter.
I am often looking for validation. From someone else who has already bought from that company who can share their experience and whether or not they’re having success like D is it is what they bought, providing the solution to the problem they had. how well is it doing that? how good was the experience in all of that in terms of the purchase process, and then eventually it actually solving your problem.
Storytelling helps lend so much credibility because you’re hearing from a peer versus the organization telling you how great it is, they’re obviously biased because they made the product or the service So, so that’s where storytelling, becomes critical and crucial.
And, and the way to, if you have a Salesforce, you know, sellers on your team, whose job it is to try to go and make sales, they need. Ways to help communicate to prospect customers that is authentic. And that lends credibility the sales person can say all they want. But today in today’s day and age with the internet available, there are so many places people can do all their own self-sufficient Research before they ever talk to a sales person. they’ve essentially sold themselves before they actually engage with your organization.
And it’s more like what proof points can you share with me? AKA stories. from Customers having success that can help push me over the edge to make that purchase decision.
So, that’s where storytelling fits for sure, within the customer advocacy realm.
So, applause there, if you need me to add anything, you, you just let me know.
00:08:07 Sam:
Oh, yeah. I love that. And, you mentioned, working with your, your Salesforce and your, your, your sales. team or sales leaders, and even the reps. Tell me more about that. because I, I kinda feel like, you know, there’s always these silos to some extent between, sales and even traditional marketing.
I would imagine, there’s also kind of, there can be silos in between, you know, advocate marketing and customer advocacy leaders in sales. I’m curious, what you, what’s your take on that? And. Have you can share anything that you’ve learned around like best practices around getting the alignment between those two departments when, as you said, it’s, you. know, that from a pure, like you know, time to value, ROI perspective, like getting these customer stories in the hands of the sales team at the right time with the right deals.
You know, that seems like. One of the clearest, ROI indicators. Tell me more, like what have you learned there and how do you see that
00:09:10 Nick:
Yeah, I, I think, I think, one of the biggest things I would say is there’s always going to be differences of opinion. This is just my own thoughts. it’s not to say what works for our organization. Maybe works for everybody else, but I will say. That if you step back and look at the reasons why and the psychology around, customer stories and, and working with the salespeople, I guess the way I would say is to position it, to help get alignment is come to the sales organization from, from like customer advocacy or Marketing.
We’re even customer success department to propose collaboration internally with sales, in the way that I, in this way, I am here as to work for you salesperson in the sense that if you help collaborate with me and we can build a good relationship, I can help provide the right kinds of customers. To be a reference for you to provide a testimonial or some sort of video customer video, that can help you sell.
A lot of salespeople are, you know, commission-driven or at least that’s, that’s the nature of their role is, you know, they tend to get paid when they get the company paid in terms of, purchases you know, close one deals. So, Positioning it in a way that you’re, you’re helping them this is to help you do your job better.
We need to break down silos and collaborate more cohesively. ultimately what that will do is the salespeople start to win more. If you’re able to provide those, those customer testimonials stories and things that help them win, you can present a clear ROI from a customer advocacy standpoint.
Which Maybe helps you get more budget to expand that operation sales increase, which is good. Now you have new customers that can come through the advocacy, pathway, to become an advocate, which means now we can then capture those stories. If we can help those customers be successful to now have more customer stories to share back with, with sales.
I think really mapping. out How it benefits sales is, is the short answer. so they can really see the value in what it is customer advocacy is actually doing for, for their role. And sales is a high pressure kind of a role. So I, I’m not saying, I’m not saying it’s, it’s the highest pressure or any more pressure than say advocacy, Marketing, or any of that kind of thing.
It’s just different. And the nature of it is such. They have to be on top of hitting numbers all the time. We kind of all do in, in certain respects, but, it’s their livelihood. And so if you can come at it in a way that helps them understand that you’re there to help them do more of that, they’re likely
More willing to be reciprocal and, collaborate and, It’s it’s, I don’t say that to give any sales organizations, a bad rap whatsoever, furthest thing from the truth, totally necessary. And, and I’ve managed salespeople and I’ve worked with salespeople before, so it’s, but it always works better when, when we’re on the same page and collaborating.
00:12:40 Sam:
Yeah, that’s a great point. And so it also sounds like, con as you know, customer marketers advocate, marketers, would you say that the first step, you know, most likely has to be taken by, us as advocate marketers, you know, is that fair to say, because otherwise sales is just going to be heads down, like, you know, trying to hit their numbers, like, right.
But yeah, what, what’s your take on that?
00:13:01 Nick:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to the extent you can make it, a more holistic kind of approach with sales, it’s kind of a broad question in the sense that if I’m an advocate marketer in a company, I don’t know, am I, am I in a leadership role as an advocate marketer? Or am I. You know, more of a, on a practitioner and I have a boss and whatever else, and maybe it’s, I need to get back up from my boss so that the message is actually heard when I crossed departments to make an ask of the sales team or ask for collaboration or whatever else.
So, I mean, ideally it would come from the top down this kind of. idea of collaboration, not just between advocacy marketing and sales, but across a whole organization. you know, everybody needs to collaborate in a positive way for the organization to be successful. So I think if it can come from the top down that’s ideal, and then that makes it easier for anyone to insert, Hey, this is the executive vision of how we work together internally.
Let’s all get on board and let’s, let’s make some positive things happen. but if that’s not the case, I would say to the, probably the best thing you can do is, is, get the buy-in of at least one person. if you’re an individual advocate marketer and you’ve got a good, rapport with, with a particular salesperson.
And you can say, Hey, what kind of deals are you working on? What, what, what kind of things do you need from customer stories? if you can go and source a few of those, basically start with a small experiment, source a few of those. See how it works, prove it out.
Then, if you prove it out, they get some sales, they get their commissions. I mean, your praises are going to be sung a little bit farther and wider than they were previously. that’s, just how you build momentum. that’s, that’s how you start from the ground up, especially if you don’t have higher leadership buy-in And it’s coming from the top down. but ideally it’s, it’s coming.
It’s going in both directions.
00:15:02 Sam:
I love that point in, and also, you know, getting the recognition, right. Cause like we’re all sort of, you know, in our own careers, Our own, it’s like the start-up of you, right? You, you have to kind of figure out how to, you know, progress and, and promote and drive value and kind of get noticed. And it seems like, it seems like what you’re saying is a really quick way in, for an advocate.
Marketer is. and yes, ideally it comes top down, but if an advocate marketer who’s listening, they can do a gap analysis, figure out where the gaps are in customer stories. by talking to the sales team, facilitate getting a couple of quick wins, producing those there’s customer stories that are missing strategically.
You know, the results will be there it’s, it’s great. it’s great branding for you and great results for it, for the organization Is that, is that,
00:15:56 Nick:
Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I mean, I feel like so much in, the corporate world and not really just corporate world. That’s just a lot of my experience. I’m just saying in general, you have to prove it before people start really paying attention. You know, like the old, the infomercials where everything’s in black and white someone’s fumbling with something.
And then all of a sudden the picture is in color now, and there’s a solution okay, you just proved to me that this product works or that’s the idea. As you were talking, even if you aren’t in a position to do it all yourself, if you can do that gap analysis to see where there’s a gap and even just present.
And propose a plan for a small experiment to help with that GAP, to your supervisor and get their buy-in. Now you might have a little bit more backing to make something happen, or at least execute on that small experiment and, and prove it out. then from there, hopefully you have a good relationship with, with a supervisor If that works, now that supervisor can tell their supervisor, because every boss has a boss until you get all the way up the chain. then, you know, if it’s proving out, maybe, maybe then some of the momentum starts to come back down from the executive level to say, Hey, I think we need to double down on this or triple down on this.
00:17:23 Sam:
I want to ask you about how, you know, customer storytelling and kind of customer advocacy priority. Know, perhaps shift depending on, the size and the stage of the company. you know, in the past couple of years it seems like. you know, more customer marketers, more advocate, marketers or roles are being created than ever. And what used to be very like oh, like very enterprise only, like it’s slowly but surely like getting down into, you know, mid-market smaller companies are, are focusing more on, on advocacy. when it used to be very much like, oh, we don’t need to worry about that until we’re enterprise company. well, that, that’s my, that’s my understanding.
So if you think that is the case, I I’d love to hear your thoughts on, yeah. How does it change? How does customer advocacy change? depending on the, size and the stage of the company, particularly what can smaller you know, you know, SMEs or startups even learn from customer advocacy, that has traditionally maybe been executed at the enterprise level.
00:18:29 Nick:
Yeah, no, that’s a good question. And I. I truly believe that that’s, it has started kind of well, and it makes some sense with enterprise-level organizations that can afford to build out teams to, to do this sort of work, whereas a startup or a small business, you might have one to 10 people, or maybe it’s a 50-person small business.
They probably have one person who’s Doing marketing and that person might even be doubling as a sales person or something like that, you know? So, so, just the bandwidth of people is usually spread a little bit more thinly than, than in a larger organization where you have individuals who might specialize in particular areas.
I’ll again, give kind of a state of, I think. The recent years and in the spotlight, that’s been put on customer advocacy and customer marketing. So as, as COVID. hit a lot of times what happened, there was many businesses and their economies to keep their own businesses alive and well started to shift and change as a result of the pandemic.
And so I think what a lot of organizations, and unfortunately, a lot of organizations lost a lot of business. Because they couldn’t be open or whatever else. so they lost the opportunity for new customers and new, dollars to flow through their organization from, from new sales. But what it, what it did do is it put a focus on, oh, I have this pool of current customers that if I can retain them, especially in SaaS business where it’s recurring revenue,
You know, that recurring revenue could help Keep things afloat until we can figure out a pivot or whatever needs to happen to, to move the business forward in a new direction based on economic circumstances. and so, so I think that was, a natural, well, an unnatural phenomenon, that, nobody saw coming, but, It was a natural reaction maybe to, that happening.
So people started to double down and triple down on, on their current customers and realizing that, Hey, it’s easier to keep a customer than, than get a new customer. My current customer, isn’t fully using all the offerings that we have. So now I can focus on upsell, cross-sell and probably land those sales a little bit easier than trying to find brand-new sales.
And so I think that’s where this more recent focus in the last couple of years on customer marketing. And you’re starting to see like tons and tons of organizations have these kinds of roles available and not just in B2B, but B2C and other organizations. So to your point to your question, And it is a lot of a larger organizations, but more and more smaller organizations are seeing what the larger organizations are doing and saying, oh, that looks like it’s useful and is making sense.
And it, I should probably be doing some level of that. then that’s the question. how do I do that at a smaller scale with effectiveness? If my, goal is to among my customers scale this idea of. Brand loyalty and word-of-mouth marketing. for a smaller business, it’s a matter of picking some things that work.
There are some principles that are universal. most customers want to have success with whatever product or service you’re offering as quickly as possible. that’s part of why they’re buying. So helping them onboard really well. To be able to use your product and have success with it right away, and validate their decision to purchase from you with time to value, as they, as they go through that.
Make sure that that is working Your customers are just getting the value you’ve promised them from, from what you sell. then from there, you can start to insert some things, that are more of a customer advocacy nature. it could be as, easy as. a customer community, you know, it doesn’t have to necessarily be fancy.
I I’m, I’m all about, like, there are great tools that can automate and do all sorts of great things, but there are also basic tools that if you have a good strategy on how you use them can be effective. So, you know, a Facebook community, a LinkedIn community, or whatever of gesture customers, so they can start to interact and answer questions of each other of their peers.
You can insert, you know, valuable information to them, share some of the other customer success stories that are happening because a lot of customers want to understand, what is that customer doing? They’re having success. What are they doing with your product that I’m not doing that maybe I’m missing out on the same kind of success?
There are little things like that. then as a, as an advocate marketer, as. those Community and those, interactions are taking place among peers. How can you capture some of that and leverage some of that, for, for the business or how can sales then take some of those positive comments and whatever else and insert them in their talk track as they’re selling to a prospect.
That just all starts to build on itself. So I think from a smaller organizations standpoint, it’s, it’s finding one or two areas where. You can think through how does this benefit the customer? And that’s probably the key keep customer centric. How do I benefit the customer first to help them be successful in whatever they do without even necessarily mentioning your product, but how can I help them be successful?
How can I specifically help them be successful with our products? And then from there. You know, how can I recognize them? So that’s the, that’s the other side of it is once they have success as an organization, how can you put them on a pedestal to recognize them and make them feel good that they made the right decision, and, and have some success.
So I think even an email list can, can kind of do that. It’s not quite as back and forth interactive as like a community or a forum. but just regularly reaching out and doing shout outs of your customers, be like, Hey, Joe Schmoe had awesome success with this last week. We saw it in the news.
Congratulations. Keep on keeping on, you know, you’re doing the best thing. And I mean, that just. Hits peoples as an individual, you know, they, they, people want to be recognized. They want to stand out for doing positive things and have been successful in their roles. And then if they’re successful as an individual, the company they work for is going to see that success and it’s, it’s going to have a trickle effect there. And then you and your organization. get, get some recognition by association because of their success, but you got to put that focus on them. So I’ll pause the hair. That was a long-winded answer with a lot, a lot in it, but I hope that helps a little bit.
00:25:43 Sam:
I love that. One of the big takeaways for me, and even for us at testimonial hero is progress, not perfection, right? Like, you know, you can get a ton done with just a you know, like a lightweight kind of customer advisory board. That’s yearly remote situation. Like whether it’s email LinkedIn groups. I love that. we talked about. strategy earlier. And I want to circle back to that. you know, we talked a little bit about, you know, gap analysis, but it is, is it, is it really, is it, is it that simple or how do you think about it? Like, if I’m a marketer listening to this,
I’ve decided that I want to, you know, in specifically for customer story, so I’ve decided I want to create, four or 5, 6, 10, More customer stories. How do you think about, you know, setting in determining them, you know, our customer story?
00:26:35 Nick:
If you have historical data at all, like if you’ve done some level of this in the past, that can be really helpful as just a baseline, understanding. Now, if you’re starting from scratch, you’ve never done it before. You don’t really have, a strategy around customer stories, then, then it might take some creative thinking.
And in that, in that case, I mean, I guess the way I would start is. In your organization, talk to those folks who have the, the, probably the best relationships with the customer. So maybe it’s customer success reps. You know, if you’re looking in a software organization or, or maybe it is a, an account executive or a sales rep, even, I mean, it could be any one of those people who engage on front lines with customers on a regular basis, they’ll be able to tell you, of those interactions that they have.
Which customers really stand out, as sort of having the right mindset for your, your brand. If that makes sense. I, I don’t know really how else to explain that, but they’ll, they’ll be able to have enough information and enough of a relationship with the customer to be able to say, you know what, this customer might actually fit for a customer testimonial.
For what you’re thinking. So understanding who among your customer base, like doing some sort of analysis to say, like, who would be most likely, like, who would our sales are or CSMs nominate as ideal customers to represent our brand to other prospect customers or other current customers, even for that matter.
So I think that’s a, that’s a place to start, especially on a w w if you’re a smaller business and you’re on a small scale. you’re probably closer to the customers. You probably know who they are more so than a larger organization, personally. So I would start there and then just get an idea of those kinds of customer stories and then what you want to focus on.
So this is where the strategy comes into play. So look at. Your organization where the organization’s going, what are their goals where they want to go? In terms of sales? Are they looking to break into a particular industry or segment? And do you have any current customers that are happy and successful enough with your product that are in those industries or segments that you could start to build essentially a roster of who you would like to approach, for that.
But again, you have to make, when you do finally approach a customer, you have to make it worth their while and beneficial. So one of the ways I think about that, Those who often want to speak as in testimonials or at a conference or whatever on behalf of their experience with your product. Typically, our people.
Care about their personal brand for their career purposes. And so this is an opportunity to add that feather and recognition in their cap, on their journey. So I think that kind of appeals, that kind of recognition. That’s one of the go-to ways that we, we appeal to a lot of people. instead of asking them, we want to present them with the opportunity to.
I have another experience that, that showcases them as an expert and a thought leader in their industry and with this particular product, that they can use and leverage for their own personal brand and career.
And so it’s, it’s targeting in on that individual.
And again, if they’re having success their employer who hires them is likely to enjoy that positive success as well.
And then you by association, them using your product. I kind of spun around a few different topics, but it’s all a little bit related, so I can, I can drill into any, any area you’d like.
00:30:16 Sam:
Yeah, I love the, you know, the kind of shining the spotlight on them, You know, kind of celebrating their. And actually let’s dig into that. You know, one of the challenges all marketers face when we’re going for that advocacy ask is, the way we make the ask, also, you know, making, getting an agreement, right.
And, any tips you can share, you know, so, so we have one tab. first of all, ask the right people, secondly, you know, no help make it beneficial to them, make it a two way exchange of value in and let them know, or kind of hint at like, look, we’re going to promote this. We want to, you know, hold you up as a, as a kind of beacon, you know, or as a example of best practices in your industry, help the personal brand. what other kinds of tips or things have you realized around. Actually making that ask and getting,
00:31:07 Nick:
Yeah. You know, I think, more than anything, the, the, the biggest aspect of it, it’s, there’s no big trick to it. it’s just, it’s a being authentic in, in what you’re doing and being very transparent with the customer. So most customers can, you know, have, have good. I’ll just call it BS detectors, you know?
If you’re being inauthentic about it in your ass, or you’re trying to sort of hide what the, the, what you’re really what your real angle is, in terms of why you’re asking, then I think that comes through usually, and, and customers might be more apprehensive, to participate, but I definitely think the transparency is.
Hugely useful and fun. Unfortunately, sometimes underrated. but that’s one of the biggest things I would say is like, Hey, here’s why we’re this. Here’s what we’re looking for. And here’s how we would go about doing that. This is an opportunity for you and your thought leadership. You know, you care about your personal brand and career.
Like if that’s a motivator for you, if it’s not, then maybe this isn’t the right opportunity for you and that’s okay. And it’s, we value your partnership and your business and want you to feel comfortable working with us. So if this isn’t the right thing, and I think that’s, that’s key too, is making sure your customers have, they’re not pressured into it, that they have that it’s their choice.
It’s totally their choice. Because as soon as you start to feel pressured into it, you hurt might not be into it. Or, you might feel like it’s just an obligation and that’s what starts to lead to burnout. If you then come back to that person and keep asking these same customers over and over, to, to be a reference customer or add a testimonial or customer video or something like that.
And then they get burnt out and then they get a bad taste in their mouth from your organization.
And now they’re leaving. Likely to really be an advocate for you, and you’ve just kind of turned them away. So it’s, it’s gotta be to their benefit transparency. And I think to just allowing people, you’re presenting the opportunity, they can choose to take it.
They can choose not to take it. And that’s totally fine. In fact, that kind of endears them a little bit more to you because you’re being human.
00:33:36 Sam:
So, so many good points there. And just to underscore, you know, the the point about explaining kind of like, what you’re doing and why I think, other than, good communication and being, like you said, transparent, there, there actually is a very good, psychological reason to do that as well.
There is a just short tangent here. There’s this study called the copy machines. I think it was done, it’s in a book, Robert Cialdini, but basically it’s this idea that like, when we ask someone to do us a favor, if we provide a reason, people are just, significantly more, there’ll be, they’re going to agree just because people like to have, you know, people like to have reasons for what they do.
Right. So for example, it could be. like for us, when we always, you know, ask when we make an advocacy ask for like something like a J to review or something. We explained to them, like, this is extremely helpful to us. And like our salespeople use this on every use. These are G2 page on every single deal and like it, you know, no big deal, but if you’re open to that, I’d really appreciate it.
So like, yeah, having that explaining like the, because, or just like the reason and like just being transparent and, is a lot more appealing than being like, just asked, you know, with no further con.
00:34:55 Nick:
Yeah, I’ll add to your G2, example. They wrote real quick. One of the things I found effective two is similar to what you just explained. Like. This is why we’re asking. This is why, what, what we’re after, if you choose to do this. but I often will share it back with, with the customer too and say, you know, this is also if paying forward, the experiences you’ve had is a value to you.
That’s part of how this helps other, other people who were, you know, if you remember back when you were shopping for a solution, maybe you reviewed G2 and trust radius and all these other review sites, if you had a good experience
Or really even if you didn’t have a great experience in that, that you’re trying to promote bad testimonials, but just, you don’t tell them what to write, but just like getting them to understand that, Hey, the act of putting in a review actually,
You know, helps others who might’ve been in the same situation you were in when you were shopping.
So, it it just it just kind of personalizes some of that a little bit further.
00:36:02 Sam:
That is such a good point. And, I want to hit on a couple of things. I know we’re we have a hard stop coming up. So what’s shifted. Talk about different mediums, different formats of customer stories. You know, video taxed, you know, third party reviews. How do you think about all of those and maybe, you know, the pros and cons of each and kind of where things are going and trends and, you know,
00:36:26 Nick:
Yeah. So, well, the first thing I think about is, the appropriate media and the appropriate sort of medium to create the messaging for that media. So, so, in other words, a basic example. So if I, if I need to.
Do some sort of postcard advertising, that’s going to get actually physically mailed to someone.
Obviously I’m probably not using video. I’m probably using copywriting, text imagery, still imagery, something that, that conveys, something that’s appropriate for that particular use in that particular media. So, in contrast, you know, if I’m trying to do something on social media, I’m probably looking at.
Some sort of native content, meaning we’re posting maybe a short video native within a LinkedIn feed, you know, uploaded right to LinkedIn versus like on YouTube and linking to it.
Or, or, or whatever the case is. And in that. Video and short text is probably a better choice than long form text, unless your goal is to draft like a blog post where you’re looking to get search engine optimization benefit from a long form, you know, thousand plus word documents.
So kind of knowing where you’re going to use the content or the stories that you’re producing, will help dictate. What’s appropriate for the audience that, that tends to view in those, those places. So you want to go where your audience is and you want to utilize, a format in those places that is accepted by the audiences who go to those places.
So, you know, online and social tends to be short. Snappy video, lots of excitement, entertainment. you know, if you’re looking, if you’re an article reader and you like blog posts and whatever else, you know, long form, if you’re doing other advertising, again, it’s probably short copy. If it’s text at all, depending on, on.
What the outcome needs to be for, for the audience. So, so that’s kind of the way I think about it from a, from a format stem standpoint where things are going in, in advocacy. I think so much more these days is well it’s online and offline experiences for sure. we’ve always had conferences in person and things, and then COVID hit.
And then now we have, we had all these virtual things and now we’re, we’re kind of coming out of. To a certain extent, and it’s kind of this virtual, or virtual hybrid, you know, in-person and virtual version of things. So it’s a little bit of everything. And I think that can be to an advantage for, advocacy, marketers and things like that because you now have, you can ha you can create an in-person experience that has a different kind of meaningful value to a customer than a virtual experience that can also have to have a very meaningful value to a customer.
But the format of how you have to deliver that just has to be different. So in some ways it makes our job maybe a little more complicated and harder because we have to manage all these formats and things. But if you do it well, you can kind of stack these things on each other. And the reach you end up getting is greater.
And also, I think communities are some, some idea of community on or offline, probably both. Is very much where things are going. And one of the reasons that’s so important is because people want to belong to a group or a tribe or something. That’s a law that has a sense of comradery and a sense of something bigger than themselves.
And what happens. I think when you get a group of people like that together, especially customers is now it takes on a third. Dynamic, which is that you’ve got, you know, the, the company and the customer and they’re interacting, you know, two ways. That’s, that’s the, the, the two dynamics. The third dynamic is now they’ve got peers in the group, so now they can interact with each other.
And now they’re starting to learn from each other without the company.
And that brings so much more value. So I, a lot of that is all here already. I just think it’s going to expand to become a lot more important and you’re gonna see a lot more of it.
00:41:00 Sam:
Yeah, I love that. Such a, such a true thing. last but not least, Nick, what do you wish you knew five years ago? around, you know, customer average C customer stories or, you know, anything related to.
00:41:15 Nick:
I don’t know. I was pretty excited when, when this opportunity came up for me at Ceridian, I was pretty excited. I had been doing like more social media marketing and content marketing and inbound kind of marketing. And I, I could see where this was going. And to me it was. The way I associated it was, I was like, okay, this is inbound 4.0, this is like, amazing.
So like five years ago, what would I, what would I want to know? I think I would’ve just, I would’ve told myself or anyone getting into it. Don’t be apprehensive about it. I think I had some insecurities about it initially because not a lot of people were, or it wasn’t as widely popular as it is now.
And so. It always, you always start to feel a little bit insecure. like, am I on the right path? Am I doing the right kinds of things? How do I know this is where things are going? when, when you feel like you’re a little bit of the underdog, or that’s not the main, the main thing, but the way to counter that or the way I felt like I was able to counter that was by concentrating on.
This is what I’m working on. This is what we’ve committed to in terms of trying to make this work. If we can prove this out, then we’re proving at least for our organization that it’s working and then we can, we can continue to do that. Maybe it’s not right for every organization. That’s fine, but this is where I’m at right now.
And I have the opportunity to make this work. So let’s see if we can make this work and it turns. it worked pretty well and it continues to work and I’m very grateful. but I think that that would be the biggest thing is just, a better way to get over the insecurities of not having mass mainstream, exception of what you’re doing at the moment.
00:43:08 Sam:
And so you’ve heard it here, folks. If you have any doubts around customer marketing, and customer stories and advocacy, you’re in the right place.
Nick, this has been great. I really appreciate this. We might have to have a round two, sometime. Where can people get in touch with you if they want to connect or learn more about what you’re up to?
00:43:29 Nick:
Yeah, absolutely. I would say LinkedIn is really the best way to do that. So it’s linkedin.com/in/NickV. I was pretty early on LinkedIn, so I got the last initial, but not my whole name.
So, LinkedIn is the best way to get ahold of me, but we can email, we can message, happy to expand the circle of network. So, happy to talk to anybody.
00:43:52 Sam:
Perfect, Nick. Thanks again. Have a great rest of your day.
00:43:56 Nick:
You too, Sam. Thanks so much.
00:43:57 Sam:
Alright, folks. Well, that was a fantastic episode with Nick Ventrella. Just wow. Jam-packed with so many insights, from how to think about strategy, getting agreements, how advocacy and stories change different sized companies. I definitely encourage everyone to connect with Nick, follow him. He’s got a great blog. If you’re a musician, he’s got a really fantastic Etsy shop selling up-cycled guitars. Definitely check that out.
If there’s any other guests in the future that you want to have on the podcast, feel free to shoot me an email. It’s, sam@testimonialhero.com.
We just want to make this the most valuable podcast for customer storytelling and advocacy marketing.
So, all that being said, thanks so much for listening, and we’ll see you in the next episode.
Sam Shepler is the founder and CEO of Testimonial Hero. Testimonial Hero helps businesses close sales deals 40% faster and recruit the best talent for their teams. Testimonial Hero captures world-class customer stories that build trust faster and take your marketing to the next level.
In this episode, we talk about using customer stories in your marketing strategy. Sam shares why increasing trust with your customers makes every part of your job as a marketer easier. Sam explains how video testimonials are one of the fastest ways to increase trust and help you close the deal. We also talk about why video testimonials are superior to written testimonials, and much more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- How to maximize your competitive advantage to get more customers
- Why customer testimonials dramatically improve your team’s morale
- How to put yourself ahead of your competition
- A huge mistake many marketers make, and how to avoid it
Links & Resources
- Chase Hanna
- Robert Rose: Content Marketing: Unlocking Sales & Marketing Performance
- Vidyard
- Wistia
Sam Shepler’s Links
- Follow Sam on Twitter
- Testimonial Hero
Episode Transcript
00:00:00 Sam:
As human beings, we evolved to read faces. That’s how we judge people, for better or for worse, in many cases. You don’t get that via text. So, the future of customer stories is not text. The future of customer stories is video, and all of the different mediums that video is becoming.
Hello, and welcome to the very first episode of The State of Customer Storytelling. The podcast and video series where we delve into all things customer stories related, and how you, as a B2B marketer, can leverage customer stories to close deals faster.
This is a podcast from Testimonial Hero. I’m Sam Shepler, the founder and CEO of Testimonial Hero.
We also have Chase Hannah, our head of marketing, and we’re excited to chat today.
Chase, start us off.
00:01:08 Chase:
Yeah, definitely. So let’s kick it off with why video testimonials matter in B2B.
00:01:17 Sam:
Great question. Why do video testimonials even matter in the first place? Well, at the end of the day, what video testimonials enable is simply to build trust faster.
In any buying process, and particularly a B2B buying process with a large ACV—a high-consideration sale—you really need a significant amount of trust to facilitate that. Trust is basically the grease that lubricates any deal, and moves it along. If you don’t have that, everything is just going to move slower.
Having the right video testimonials that align with the verticals that your buyers are in, and providing helpful and relevant context from trusted third parties are the best way to build that trust, and close those deals faster.
00:02:21 Chase:
Definitely. I like that a lot. So, we’ve noticed that there’s a shift from marketing content to customer content.
Can you expand on that?
00:02:32 Sam:
Absolutely. Great question.
Customer Content is marketing content. What I mean by that, and what I really want to hit home, is, we used to live in a world where you could achieve great results as a sales team, as a marketing team, leveraging your own content. Saying, “Here’s what we do. Here’s what our product does. Here’s why we’re different. Here’s why you might be interested.” By using traditional marketing content.
We now live in a world where traditional marketing content is not enough. If you want to win deals, and win deals at the speed and at the rate that, frankly, you’re going to need to in today’s landscape, the best B2B companies out there are leveraging customer content. They’re leveraging customer stories.
If I’m a B2B buyer, and I’m comparing two solutions, and they’re pretty much neck and neck in a lot of ways, one of the things that’s going to be the tiebreaker is which company has more compelling customer stories.
So, it’s not just having customer stories, and having them be authentic and accessible, and integrate in an exciting format like video. It’s not enough. Because your competitors will have it. The game is changing. Marketing content alone is no longer enough to compete at a high level. You absolutely need great customer stories, as well.
00:04:27 Chase:
Now that makes sense. love it. You know, great way of putting that to, you know, in the past, when we’ve talked, you’ve mentioned that making cus you’ve mentioned making customer stories, a competitive advantage, can you drill down there? You know, how can customer stories be a competitive advantage?
00:04:43 Sam:
Yeah, it’s a great question. So, you know, I kind of hit on it a little bit in that last point, but let’s, let’s drill down more. So. In what ways are customer stories actually a competitive advantage? if I’m a B2B buyer and I’m comparing two solutions, one of the things that, I am going to be looking at, because let’s, let’s remember, you know, buyers do about 80% of their research before they talk to a salesperson.
First of all. So, so if I’m doing my. research you know, taking a look at, you know, comparing two three or four different, solutions, the one that has the best most robust most helpful and, you know, most relevant customer stories that are accessible to me as a buyer that is going to be a huge advantage.
You know, compared to, you know, the ones that don’t, it’s going to actually increase the trust index the level of trust I have in, in that solution. and, for that reason, I I’m I’m, you know, even before I talk to a salesperson, you know, if I’m a buyer I’m going that, into that deal with, with, already an elevated level of trust as compared to, maybe the company who really had a couple.
Generic written, text testimonials, but didn’t have any, world-class video testimonials. So in, in, then we can even go on further in the sales process. So, you know, if I have an objection, you know, or a question in the sales process, which all buyers do–they always have, a question a fear or doubt, no whether it’s an outright objection or just simply a question–who is going to have a more effective sales process, you know, the, the salesperson and the company that says, you know, that uses the traditional thing, which is feel, felt found. I understand how you feel that way, here’s how our customers actually felt. And then they found this and like, versus, versus a company that says, yeah, that’s a great question.
Here’s exactly what our customers have to say about. So it’s, it’s just, it’s basically customer Content. especially as you get further along the sales process, you know, and you get into these, specific, QFDs–these specific questions, fears and doubts–having the ability to just have a repository of, world-class, customer videos around every single topic that you, your buyers will care about is a huge, competitive advantage. In summary, you know, it it’s really all throughout the buyer journey, right. it’s a competitive advantage to even generate the lead I don’t want to reach out to a company who I don’t think, you know, it who I think is just going to waste my time. Right. So like, you know, you you’re going to generate more leads and then, you know, throughout, you know, that sales process, you’re going to be able to leverage customer stories, to reduce friction and ultimately, close the deal, much faster
00:08:01 Chase:
That’s great. Love it. You know, you’ve touched on this already, you know, with this last question, but. Diving in a little deeper, how do you come up with a winning customer storytelling strategy to really push that narrative even further?
00:08:14 Sam:
Yeah. Yeah. Great question. So when it comes to, you know, the strategy, for, you know, customer story, it’s, it’s pretty simple. And it starts with, you know, understanding your, your, your company priorities and your company strategy, like at a high level. So, and then you want to fit your customer stories, strategy to that, and it should support it and in the line and, you know, again, very simple, but not always easy.
So you know, the, the, the, the con the customer story strategy stems from your, your, your overall company strategy and your strategic initiative. So with that in mind, you know, you, you want to figure out, okay, like what. You know, what is our strategy? And if you’re depending on your level and your company, you know, you may or may not know exactly what it is, right.
If you’re a marketing manager, you might want to check in with. with your manager and just realign it cause, you know, strategy shift on, on a frequent basis and, you know, understand that. So, so first and foremost, it’s like clarity on strategy. So like, you know, say, you know, and, and then, then it’s where does, where do customer stories fit in to support that?
So for example, in like where are the gaps. So, for example, you know, say your strategy as a company is you want to, move and move up market. so, more enterprise deals or maybe you want to move, horizontally into a specific vertical, if either of those are true, then the question you need to ask is do we have all of the customer stories to support that?
goal And, and if not, then that is, that becomes a priority. another question you can ask is what are the, you know, three to five, you know, customer stories we need that would just make everything so much easier. so, so that is, that is where you start really it’s, it’s all about, you know, the customer storytelling, strategy you know, is, you know, is, is based on, you know, your, your overall, or overarching strategy. then, first things foremost, it’s filling the gaps, you know, so you’re, you’re, you’re, you’re doing a gap analysis and then you’re, prioritizing and ranking, you know, what is the, you know, w you know, what is going to move the needle.
That is how you can decide. You know, which customers you’re asking for testimonials, You have, hundreds or thousands of customers. who do you ask? again, it depends on your strategy, If you’re trying to move into, a new vertical. Get, you always want to get, ask the customers that represent, your strategy.
So that’s, that is, you know, that, that is what it’s all about. nothing shocking, but very important is that the customer storytelling strategy has to align with your overall strategic priorities
00:11:19 Chase:
Definitely, you know, and you, you went into detail about, you know, getting the strategy analysis and seeing what you’re gonna have to do with that. But what would you say the number one most important thing for a winning customer Storytelling strategy is if you had to pick one thing, what’s the best
00:11:36 Sam:
Yeah. So I think, yeah, it’s a great question. So what is the number one most important thing for, a winning customer storytelling strategy? I think that it’s a tough question, but. I think it would be, comes to a term called, the principle of parity So parity as in, likeness, or sameness.
The number one thing is that you want to capture customer stories from the same type of customers you are focusing on prioritizing and selling to in your. go-to market shoes, that don’t fit are not a bargain at any price. you don’t want to put effort into, capturing stories from customers that no really don’t represent the future of, your your priorities.
So, you know, you, you want to focus on, you know, that those, the customers that, are best fit, or, at least, you know, you know, align in, in. That is going to be more effective because the principle of parity is all about this. Is this a psychological principle that, that basically states, we, as humans are influenced and persuaded, in a greater degree by, you know, people we perceive to be like us, You know, parody again is basically sameness. Right. So, you know, that is the key is, is. You want to, you know, if you’re going after a specific ICP, Ideal Customer Profile Profile your customer stories should be from that ICP. if there’s, if there’s one tip I would give is to say like, okay, if you do this, you can do a lot of other things wrong, but you’re going to still be successful, that would, that would be it
00:13:30 Chase:
Okay. So that all sounds really awesome. I’m sure everyone wants to know this, any tips on how to get customers to agree to a video testimonial. We know that can be very difficult at times.
00:13:40 Sam:
Yeah, that’s a great question. So, one, one tip to get customers to agree to a testimonial. A video testimonial is to set the expectation early. In the sales process actually, approach that, conversation early, and potentially even include it in the contract, in, in your sales agreements.
You know, there’s a big misconception here. Some people say I don’t want to hold customer’s feet to the fire to get a testimonial agreement. And like, that’s not at all what is happening in practice. Right. So like, Actually, you know, how it works is like you can make those, you know, first of all, if the customer doesn’t have a great experience of their product, you’re never going to call in that agreement, Like you’re not, you’re not gonna, you’re not gonna, hold someone’s feet to the fire for something they don’t genuinely want to. do So you know, that is, that is the big thing. so basically like having agreements for video testimonials and other, advocacy activities in your contract agreed upon in advance, just starts the conversation earlier and, And basically, you know, you know, if, and when, you know, the customer has a great experience, you know, they would give you a testimonial anyway, but it’s already been discussed.
It’s already, technically in the contract. So, it’s just much easier to, to make that happen. secondarily, you know, it’s, it’s a great. you know, in, in, in, from a sales perspective, it’s a great bargaining chip, you know, or a trading mechanism, So like maybe, your, and, and you can work, if you’re a marketer, you can talk with your sales leaders in, in kind of Institute this, if it’s not already happening, but basically like, buyers are gonna obviously ask for, different terms, different discounts, in sales, you always want to, you know, you never want to just give something for nothing.
It’s always a quid pro quo, Okay, we can do this if you do this. And that’s just, that’s just, you know, the basics of, of good, good salesmanship. video testimonials are in the agreement to do a video testimonial pending satisfaction. is one of the best, things you can pull out in one of those situations.
So, you know, maybe so, that would be my biggest tip is, including, having more of a practice of including, you know, the clause in your sales contracts that, pending satisfaction, you know, customer X agrees to do a video testimonial again, it’s not, like you’re strong-arming them or holding their feet to the fire for it.
You’re only going to do it with people who genuinely would be excited to do it And so, I think that’s a big misconception. and, also, you know, again, really practical implications from the sales negotiation side as well. you know, if you have to, be in a situation where you’re slightly discounting or, giving, favorable terms, Getting that video testimonial agreement is something that companies are usually very happy to do in exchange for a small discount or more favorable terms
00:17:22 Chase:
Definitely. So we’ve given them a discount and, or we’re just working with them and they’ve given us a testimony. Let’s go from there. How can you think about ROI and measurement in terms of video testimonials? How are we seeing the return there?
00:17:36 Sam:
Yeah, it’s a great question. And one other thing to add is like, in terms of the discount, it’s actually, you know, in, in many cases it’s like better. Include the clause by default. So we have, you know, customers, you know, we have many customers who that, you know, their default is,
You know, they default to including, you know, the, the video testimonial clause in there, you know, pending satisfaction and then it gets taken out and then eventually it gets put back in, in the, in the negotiation process.
So, so, so that is. That’s another thing is like, if you really want to capture more, you know, agreements or testimony, it’s just like, well, you can, you can default to that. in, in regards to, to your other questions is a great question and know, how do you, how do you measure like the, you know, how do you think about the ROI of video testimonials?
Like how do you, how do you measure it? so, you know, so the, the short answer is like, it’s, it’s very easy to, And after you produce video testimonials and, you know, you’re there w your sales team is using them to see, like, you know, a, are our salespeople using them and are they influencing deals? And are they, they, they actually, you know, helping close deals and are, you know, our is time to close, decreasing, and does sales want more of them?
You know, because let’s think about this for a second. 80% of marketing content that Marketing makes there’s a study, maybe what we’ll link to in the show notes, but it’s basically pointing, it’s like 80% of content that Marketing makes actually like goes unused by sales. you know, not incredibly shocking, but like the fact that sales actually is using these video testimonials, You know, that that in and of itself is a huge win.
So like utilization is a huge win, like sales will not be asking for things that aren’t valued to them. Right. So if they’re asking you for more video testimonials, like that is, that’s a huge sign and they’re probably asking you for, if you’re a marketer, they’re probably asking them for you right now. If you talk with sales, secondarily, I mean, if you really want to dig into the details, you know, you can, you can see, you know what, you know, you can measure time to close.
You can make. you know, how much their pipeline is influencing, how much revenue. and then furthermore, if you really want to dig in, I mean, you know, if you use a video hosting platform, like video card or Wistia, you can, you can easily there’s many others, but those are, those are the most common business ones.
You can, you can plug all that into your marketing automation platform and you can measure everything to your heart’s content. You can do lead scoring. you know, most people don’t do that because like being honest, like there’s some things in marketing that we do because they just make sense. Right?
Like not everything, like if we only did things that could be perfectly measured, like we wouldn’t necessarily be great marketers. Right? Certain, certain things in marketing, we have. Because we have conviction and then make intuitive sets and I would pause it that, you know, video testimonials are one of the best examples of that.
I mean, we, we know that, you know, just again, like we can, you can think in from like psychological first principles and like human nature and, you know, you know, you know, we know we need trust to close deals. we know that, you know, video testimonials are great way to increase trust and you know, the more video testimonials that we can have that address, you know, the, you know, that question, fears and doubts that buyers have and are also aligned with, you know, the key verticals that we serve.
And then you make them accessible on your marketing site and you make sure sales is aware of them and using them then, you know, it’s, that is, really like the ROI will take care of itself. That being said, like, like I said before, if you want to dig in and get crazy with it, it’s totally, you know, measurable to your heart’s content.
But to me, it’s one of those things where it’s like, you don’t have to go crazy measuring. because you can, it’s like self-evident and then the sales results are also self-evident and talking with the sales team, it, you know, it will be very clear the impact.
00:22:14 Chase:
Great advice really like that. So we go ahead. We, we get our testimonial. you’ve talked about how the sales team can really use it, but, you know, once we get the testimonial, where can we get, you know, most use of it on the, on the, on the internet, on the web, on social media, where are we seeing the best results?
00:22:32 Sam:
Yeah. Great question. Yeah. I think one of the mistakes that, marketers, you know, that we can make is we get these testimonials and then we sequester them on only a very, page of our website that doesn’t have a whole ton of traffic. first thing is Put them out where people will see them, obviously a customers page is super key, but they should also be on your homepage.
Like, you know, and this has to do with quality and this is why quality matters. Like you don’t want to put a, you know, you know, like, so you don’t want to put something bad on your homepage. It’s just not going to, you know, in terms of production quality and, and, and, you know, every, everyone is happy To do things that are cheap and cheerful, but like that shouldn’t be cheap and cheerful should not describe your homepage or your marketing site, you know, unless you’re a two-person startup. that is why, and I’m sure we’ll get to this. I think he’s like, that’s why production quality matters.
Like you, you know, everything you do as you know, is a representation of, of, of your company and of your product and, and you, you, you can’t put something, you know, unless you, you’re proud. You’re proud of about. being Cheap and cheerful. you don’t want to put something cheap and cheerful on your homepage.
You want to put something that is high quality and, you know, obviously authentic you can’t sacrifice authenticity, but, but yeah, so, so coming back to the original question, it’s gotta be. You know, you got to put it everywhere that your buyers are gonna see it. So, you know, maybe that is, you know, so don’t just hide it in one area of your site, Put it on your customers page put it on your homepage in the right area.
Maybe you have industry pages, for key verticals and you can put those customer stories on, on all those pages as it corresponds to the vertical. in In addition to the website, Micro content on social, shorter versions. social media attention span is, you know, you’re competing with people scrolling feeds And there are so many other options for them to get distracted. So like, you know, on social, you know, if you’re, if you’re keeping your website customer videos under two minutes, try and keep them under 60 seconds on social. Right. You know, 45, 30 to 45 seconds is a great, you know, length for, LinkedIn, for example.
Then of course, you know, arming your into your S your sales people arming your individual sales reps. with A whole catalog library of all of these videos that address the individual, QFDs questions fears doubts then they have just a, a quiver where they can, you know, in any situation that occurs, they can just pull out the right piece of content for that situation.
00:25:35 Chase:
That makes sense. I really like that. So let’s say I’m a marketing manager. I really want a testimonial and I need the sign off, you know, I’m not the one making every single decision.
What kind of question should I ask my manager, you know, about getting video testimonials? how can I convince them, you know, where do we go from there to, to get this going?
00:25:56 Sam:
Yeah. Yeah. Interesting question. And,
I think, you know, hopefully you won’t have to, you know, if you’re a marketing manager and you’re, you want video testimonials and, but you, you won’t need your boss to sign off. I mean, I would say hopefully you don’t have to convince them too hard. or that would be like, if it, a little bit, if they might be a little dated, honestly, and behind the times, if they don’t.
That, you know, video testimonies are necessary, but, but, but also like that’s okay too. I mean, different companies have, you know, different levels of sophistication and different levels of, different markets they’re selling to. Right. So, you know, I would just ask the questions, honestly, like, you know, I wouldn’t try to convince them.
I would just ask them some questions, like, you know, what’s our, what are our priorities in terms of the, you know, the, you know, the personas that we’re trying to reach, oh, we’re trying to reach this persona. What sort of customer stories do we have, you know, to support that and to, you know, help, you know, in that effort.
Well, we don’t really have any, or like w you know, or we only have, you know, written static PDFs, you know, have we, have we thought about customer videos? Have you seen what our competitors are doing with customer videos? have you seen what, you know, other company X who’s, maybe not our competitor, but you know, is, is, has amazing.
You know, you know, page or our amazing number of customer videos on their homepage. Have you, have you thought about, you know, doing, what do you think about doing something like this? so, so yeah, I would, I mean, I would say, you know, great, good questions are the most important thing. And, and honestly, you know, it’s true for so many things.
I it’s, right. It’s it’s, it’s, it’s often. Not the answer. It’s like asking better questions and I would, if you were a marketing manager and you are, do you want to drive this? I would start asking those questions, ask those, ask those questions, you know, you know, and, and I think that will work really well.
And both, you know, from like a effectiveness perspective, but also from a career perspective, I mean, you know, it’s great to be the person. Like customer videos have such a huge impact. And unlike a lot of There are a lot of marketing projects you do, you know, as a marketing manager, as, a marketing director, even that like, they, it’s very hard to, to, know if they’re a huge win, they, happen and they’re positive, but it’s not like something that your CEO or, the whole company is like, this is amazing, but. Video testing, getting a series or even just one amazing customer video done that blows people away. and then being able to say, I drove that project, I did that, that is something you can hang your hat on, as a marketer and, everyone knows that you did it and everyone knows the value of it and you know, your, your sales team instead of your sales team is going to love you.
Your, your, your CEO is going to be aware of it and he’s going to be excited. honestly, the other thing is the morale of your team is going to go through the roof because that’s the other thing that is an interesting benefit of, customer videos that, the, they actually help inspire, your team and they help with recruiting as well, because everyone wants to work for companies who are doing, meaningful and great things. And, you know, unfortunately sending, a potential person you’re recruiting a case study, isn’t going to do it. it’s not exciting.
The PDF written case study or anything. It’s like, it’s, it’s, it’s not, not today in the world we live in, but if. if you’re sending them, oh, by the way, here are some examples of how, you know, companies are seeing, results using our solution, that’s meaningful and because it’s emotion, it’s emotion that matters and it’s storytelling that matters.
Both of those things, that is what video is made for. as a medium You know, emotion, in particular, like you don’t get tone through text, you, you D the emotion is, is you can only do so much, you know, through, through text And, so, you know, so, so that’s, the other thing is just like the impact that it has, on, you know, your team morale, and also for people like your engineering team, you know, in a, in a software company, They often do not like we’ve had many instances of, of our customers at Testimonial Hero saying Wow. these videos, I showed them to our whole company and they brought so much context and meaning to you know, other people who are in customer service customers, like, or engineering who maybe like aren’t, aren’t, directly involved on, on some things.
The, morale and the inspiration is almost as big of a benefit as the revenue, you know, generation
00:31:13 Chase:
No, that makes a lot of sense. Great answer.
So we know we’ve really dived into the strategy. Let’s shift gears a little bit. Let’s talk about the types of, testimonials out there and, you know, the companies working with them, what type of companies and verticals, or even some verticals would you say benefit the most from video testimony?
00:31:33 Sam:
Yeah, that’s a great question. you I think in terms of companies that, you know, what type of companies benefit from video testimonials? I know any, anyone will, but especially. well, anyone will, because again, it’s like, just like a principle it’s like trust, increased trust is always going to have a net positive and that’s at the end of the day, you know, you know, it says, it says it on our, on our t-shirt right here.
And, you know, it’s like we power trust, you know, that that’s what we’re doing. and so, but, but yeah, so anyone, but in particular, you know, deals that need, you know, companies that need an increased level of trust. So like higher consideration sales, higher ACV. Right. Like 10, 10 K ACV Up, you know, especially.
Then of course, I mean, you know, very large deals. It goes to that same, but you know, if you’re selling, you know, if, if I’m, you know, a buyer and I’m subscribing to your, you know, software, and it only costs me, you know, 39 99 a month, and it’s a monthly subscription. I mean, I, I can, you know, it’s not a huge deal necessarily, right?
Like, you know, if the ACV is like 39 a month and like, it’s like, well, worst comes to worst. I’ll just cancel. So it’s like, I don’t need the trust barrier. It’s a smaller commitment and trust barriers, lower. So w. You know, w video testimonials and, you know, great customer videos and great customer stories really come into play is when the trust barrier is higher, there’s higher ACVs, you know, bigger, bigger deals, higher consideration. Say.
00:33:12 Chase:
So there’s a lot of options out there for video testimonials. We’ve seen, you know, I see software out there, but I mean, that’s definitely on the lower end of the spectrum for video testimonials.
Why do not want the cheapest video testimonial option?
00:33:27 Sam:
Yeah. Great question. So, you know, so first of all, if you were. If you’re only selling, if you’re selling something, that’s like, you know, 9 99 a month, you know, little software tool or like, you know, you know, whatever it’s like yeah. Maybe a cheap option is, is viable. Right. but you know, in general, you know, you, you want a proportionate response and if there’s going to be like a pretty.
Did, you know, you want a proportionate response that’s going to work for you. And like, there’s going to be a really big disconnect. If you are selling, you know, something with like a 50 K ACV and you have a, you know, a really great customer and just like a kinda, you know, cheap and cheerful video, you know, and also like you’re not going to be able to leverage that, you know, on your homepage.
It’s not going to align, like you have a, you know, you have a beautiful homepage and perfectly designed, and then you have this like dark grainy, you know, zoom recording, video testimonial. It’s just, it just doesn’t fit. Right. So like, you know, the really the questions is, and also it’s like how you do, how you do everything is how you do anything.
So like, you know, when you have a higher quality, and again, authenticity and quality are not mutually exclusive. Like. You know, the best quality with zero authenticity is just as bad as, you know, you know, no quality at all. Right. So like authenticity is table stakes. Like it has to be like, extremely authentic video.
Like that’s why we don’t obviously script anything. It’s all, you know, interview based. Right. So, and that’s another thing with, with apps is like, you’re not, you’re, you’re not getting like that interview experience. You’re not getting a real conversation. and, and so, so it’s not getting to that authenticity, but yeah, the, the main thing is like, you know, if, if you’re selling something with a high ACV and you know, it makes sense to you and you only get like one ask of your customer to do this, it makes sense to invest.
Like it would actually be like, you’re sort of like, you know, you have a certain amount of. you know, political capital and you, you get one ask for your, for your testimonial. It doesn’t make sense to, to blow that on something with limited utility, right. And by limited utility, I mean, you know, it can be posted on the homepage.
It, it’s just, it’s not, it’s it’s, you know, has utility, but it’s just not super impressive. Like you have really that one ask it, just, you have the economics work, work out in terms of your ACV. And if you’re, if you’re planning to use this and it’s going to influence deals like in. It pays to do it. Right.
And so, yeah, that’s basically, it, it just doesn’t make sense. you know, if you, if you want to do it right, cause you’re not going to have the, you know, as many places to utilize it, you’re, the results are not going to be there. And at the end of the day, you don’t get to do it over. So you might as well do it right the first time.
00:36:37 Chase:
Great argument for, you know, why software is not always the most pertinent solution for sure.
00:36:42 Sam:
And actually, so let’s talk about some examples of when software could be, you know, the good example, right? Like again, if you were selling something really cheap, you know, and like it’s not a high consideration sale, you know, a quick little video testimonial clip captured via software could be, could be great, right?
Like it doesn’t like if you’re, if you’re selling, you know, if your ACV is, is in $9 a month, It probably doesn’t, you know, software is the right, you know, so it should be, it should be proportionate. It should be a proportionate response and calculated. Right. secondary, another example is like, e-commerce right.
Like, you know, if your, you know, average order value is $45 and you’re selling, you know, some direct to consumer product, it’s like, yeah, you, you, you need a proportionate response and that might be a software testimonial. So like broadly speaking, like I’m not at all. You know, software testimonials, I’m just for, you know, a proportionate response in, you know, taking into account what your ACV is and what the, you know, how much utility you want your customer video to have in the.
00:37:51 Chase:
No, th that’s a great way of putting it in a good argument too, for software. When it’s when it’s pertinent, like you said, Moving on. We know that in 2020 COVID really threw everyone for a loop. and with that, the advent of remote testimonials has become much more prevalent these days. Can you talk a little bit about on-site versus remote with video testimonials and the pros and cons between the two.
00:38:17 Sam:
Yeah, it’s a great question. Yeah. Site versus remote video testimonials, I think, you know, at, for a long time. And I would argue, you know, before, up until, you know, testimonial here, you know, there wasn’t really, there, wasn’t a good option to make, you know, remote testimonials. you know, you know, there, there just wasn’t like, you, you know, you, weren’t getting a remote testimonial and, you know, putting it on the homepage of, you know, a $50 million company.
And, and, you know, that’s what people are doing now, like, you know, with, with us. and because we sort of cracked that code. So like basically, you know, the. you know, in, in terms of like the differences, it’s like, you know, the on-site testimonials, you know, you’re, you’re filming with a videographer and you’re using, you know, the latest and greatest.
You know, cinematic, you know, technology and like it’s going to be extremely, extremely high quality. So, and so, and it’s going to be, it’s going to be a little bit different. You’re going to get more, more B roll. so generally speaking, you know, if it’s an option, the way I think of it is like, okay, If it’s an option, you know, cause we have to consider, you know, the COVID situation.
And thankfully like I think in more and more places, it is becoming like very option. Like we’re doing a lot of on-sites now. but, but basically, you know, if it’s a marquee customer, like if it’s one of your, you know, your marquee customers, you’re your biggest logo. And they’re open to an onsite like that is, you know, that is probably the way to go because it’s, again, it’s like you get one, you get one shot.
And you know, if you only get one shot, like do it right to the, to the maximum of your ability and, without having to sacrifice anything in that, that may mean onsite. Now, the it’s certainly not. I requirement because. I think, I mean, that was really what we, what we, our whole thing. And like our whole mission of the company is to make, you know, all video testimonials, you know, highest quality and effortless.
So that includes, remotes as well. This is more of a strategic conversation and maybe we’ll have another episode where we get into the tactics of how we do that. But if anyone’s curious, they can obviously just go to our website and see examples of what we’re talking about, in terms of the quality of the remotes.
So, so yeah, I think, you know, other than that, Other things to consider are, you know, on-sites are definitely more expensive. Right. You know, we’re talking about getting, you know, a whole crew out there and filming, they take their a little bit more of a lift, from, from the you’re testifying customers end, you know, the crews going to be there for a couple hours.
You know, so it’s, there’s a little, just a little bit more of a lift there, again, not a crazy lift or just, just a couple hours, but you know, it’s more than their lift for a remote testimonial. Just attending a 30 minute meeting, you know, and having an interview through our process. Right. So, so yeah, I think those, those are the things to consider.
If you’re in, especially if it’s, if it’s a marquee customer, you know, default to onsite and then work backwards from there. if it’s someone who you, if you really want to make sure. The smallest as possible, or the person’s obviously working remotely from home, that then it’s like, you know, really like the onsite.
And then the question in the goal is like, let’s, or then it’s the remote rather not, not the onsite. And then, and then the question is, well, how do you make the remote testimonials? You know, just insanely high quality. And obviously like, that’s what, that’s the problem we solve. so, so that that’s, that’s how I would think about.
00:42:26 Chase:
Good point, but to speak to that, that makes a whole lot of sense with, you know, tangent off of. The on-site testimonials, there’s also event testimonials. Where does that fit in? You know, how do even testimonials compare and there’s even the, you know, the hybrid option.
Tell me a little bit more about VIN testimonials and
00:42:46 Sam:
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, event testimonials can be fantastic because they can be an extremely efficient, time efficient as well as cost efficient, you know, a way to capture on. So, you know, we’ve worked with, you know, an example of this, and we’ve worked with many, many B2B, tech companies and they do, you know, use your groups, or, you know, customer advisory boards, you know, the different sometimes called different things.
But the idea is they get all their customers in person. you know, and, and again, this is mostly before COVID, but it’s coming back. you know, they get all their customers in person. And, you know, for a day they do their customer advisory board. They talk about, you know, product strategy, product roadmaps, get advice on all of everything around, you know, product strategy, product roadmaps, from their, their, you know, their biggest champions.
Right? So if you have a customer advisory board and it’s in person and you’re not. Leveraging it to collect video testimonials. I mean, that is, that’s definitely a missed opportunity because let’s, let’s just think of it. You have all of your best customers, often your biggest as well, and definitely your biggest supporters who are power users of your, of your product.
And you have all of them there in the same location for, you know, 24 to 48 hours. In in, you know, if you’re not carving out, like even like, like 60 minutes, you know, in often we would do this, we do this on like, on like a lunch break or like, like a little bit of time. He’s like, you get a bunch of people I do a quick 15 minute interview and you have, you know, 10, 15 testimonials over the course of just the breaks during the day.
So, so yeah, I, you know, first and foremost, it’s like, I mean customer advisory boards and user groups, our golden opportunity to capture customer videos. secondly, you know, industry events and conferences, you know, this, you know, we, we’ve done a ton of as well where, you know, you. Basically say, it was a big conference, like, RSA or black hat, you know, for cybersecurity and like every most everyone, you know, if, you know, if you’re a marketer, you know, in, in for all of your customers are probably in town for, you know, for black hat and you can.
If you’re having a, there’s really two things that we see common one, you know, if you’re hosting a party, you can actually, you know, we’ve helped companies with this many times, it’s like set up like, very similar to a user group. You set, you set up a video testimonial capture station at your party, at your like after party slash event.
You know, again, all of your, your customers are there. and you know, it’s a great thing. Or, you know, you can set it up, set up a capture station, with a videographer in a, in a hotel suite. So that’s another thing that we’ve done a lot of it’s like, you know, you, you obviously, you know, you’re coordinating with your customers prior to the.
You know, you’re, you’re having this conversations with them prior and you get the agreement and, but during the event, it may be an industry conference. Again, it’s in may, it’s not your, you know, user group, but you, you have a hotel suite, you know, you’re working with, a partner, you know, like us and you just bring.
You bring people up to the hotel suite for 30 minutes and you knock out 3, 4, 5 of those more over the course of the day. And again, it’s just very, it’s very efficient way to capture customer stories now. we’re definitely seen, you know, more of a shift toward hybrid. So this kind of actually goes full circle where, you know, you know, remote testimonials can still be captured around your, your, your, hybrid events.
And, you know, because for example, like now post COVID like are like, you know, moving to Attica Aveda, or just in the new world that we live in. It’s like a lot more in person events are going to be. So there’s going to be an imperfect people in person, but there’s also going to be people who are just tuning in and remotely.
And that’s great. That’s awesome. Like it’s, it’s, it’s great to have that option. so, so what you could do as a marketer is say for your user group is you, you have, you have both right. You capture on-site testimonials capture five or seven or 10 on-site testimonials from the people that attend in person.
And then you capture the remote testimonials as well. from, you know, people that are attending remotely now for the remotes. It, you know, it, it could happen. It doesn’t have to happen during the session like it does with an onsite at a customer advisory board. Right. But you can still use the session as part of a conversation when you go to ask for the testimonial.
And you could even, you know, we’ve seen a lot of companies do it remote testimonials in advance of their user. And then actually show the, the, the customer videos that are the remote customer videos at the user group. And that is awesome because that is one of the, best motivations for your customers to, appear in a video testimonial, you know, is actually, the ability in the opportunity to.
To share their expertise and share their knowledge and be held up as an expert amongst their peers. Right? So like we earlier in a conversation, we talked about, you know, the financial aid, you know, discounts, incentives, and, and, and another, you know, the other big, you know, motivator is, is, you know, actually.
Helping make, you know, your customers shiny light in your customers and helping make them a superstar amongst their peers in their industry, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So if you can come to them and you can say, Hey, Mr. Or Mrs. Customer. You know, I, I, we’re having a user group, you know, I love to, you know, hold you up as an example of best practices for, you know, people who are getting, you know, you know, driving, you know, incredible change and getting the most out of our product.
And would you be open to a quick 30 minute conversation where we can capture your story? We’d love to, you know, air it and share it. you know, with, you know, everyone at the user group and across the industry. And then you’re, you’re actually giving people something. Psychologically rewarding and also very practically rewarding from a careers perspective, right.
You’re giving them the psychological benefit of, of being able to, you know, share and, and, you know, be listened to and be heard and, and, and be honestly held up as a beacon of best practices, which is, which is great. I mean, everyone that that’s, that’s just awesome. Like, people love that. and then you’re also giving them the practical, benefit of like, okay, Everyone in the industry that I’m in and say, if I’m like a product marketer and I’m talking, I’m giving a testimonial about product marketing, that’s going to be seen by all my peers in the product marketing industry and other executives.
It’s it’s career PR, at a lot of different levels. So, I know that was a lot that we covered, but I think those are, those are a few of the big,
00:50:24 Chase:
No, that’s great. And you know, that’s great argument for VIN testimonials, and let’s really hope that they keep continuing to come back. They have right now. So finally, we’ve, we’ve talked a lot about customers and honestly, mainly we focus on customers, but tell me about employee testimonials. Like what is the value of employee testimony?
00:50:43 Sam:
Yeah, it’s a great question. So, you know,
It’s it comes down to the same principles. when for employee testimonials and the value of employee testimonial videos, it’s the same principles it’s it’s trust, right? It’s raising the trust index. It’s. And essentially, you know, whether it, you know, nothing happens, you know, without, without sufficient trust to, to facilitate that transaction, that agreement, whether it’s a sale or it’s, you know, a individual choosing to, you know, work for, you know, your company, right.
You know, people, especially in today’s world, like people. Have options of where they want to go, where they want to work. Right. You know, th th the transition to remote work, and in the overall climate that we’re in, you know, you know, great people have tons of options. All right.
So like, it’s, it’s always been like a quote unquote, like war for talent. Right. But like, it that’s more so than ever. And that is why, you know, video testimonials, employee testimonial videos are more. you know, more needed than ever, right. Cause you know, if I, if I’m going to make a career change or, you know, like I need to know that I can trust that I’m doing the right thing, you know, right.
As, as a, as an employee. So like, I like, I’m going to look to that, you know, again, it comes down to competitive advantage. if I, if I’m being recruited by two different companies and one of them has. You know, you know, not a, a ton of, you know, recruitment marketing that is, you know, has a lot of, you know, video in it.
Maybe they just have a pretty basic stuff or if I’m being recruited, another company has it, the recruitment marketing is chock full of authentic video testimonials. Like, again, my, my, I might still take both of those calls, but my trust index is already going to be so much higher with the company that has all the employee video testimonials.
So, So, yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, you know, it, I think we’re, we’re recruitment marketing E is the key term here, like, and you know, just like we as marketers, we need to market to our customers to drive revenue, you know, talent acquisition professionals, or marketers themselves, depending on where it sits in your org.
They, you need to market your, your, your employment brand to candidates as well. Right? So, so at the end of the day, like employee testimonials, it’s the exact same thing, except for the, agreement that you are, you know, that you’re trying to facilitate, isn’t a purChase. It’s, it’s, it’s someone, you know, awesome people, agreeing to join your team in your.
00:53:34 Chase:
That’s great. You know, that makes a lot of sense for employee testimonials. And I mean, as you said, they’re more important now than ever before. Sam, thanks a lot for your time. Really appreciate it lot here and some good takeaways. That’s all the questions I have for you today.
Any last words that you’d like to go over?
00:53:52 Sam:
Thank you, Chase. This has been super fun. I’m very excited to keep doing more of these.
My closing thoughts are, it really comes down to the unchanging, timeless, human psychological principles. That’s really what we’re talking about when we talk about customer storytelling and video testimonials. We’re increasing trust, and when we do that, every part of our jobs as marketers becomes much easier.
With that in mind, what are the priorities? Where are the gaps? What is our strategy?
Do we have the right customer stories to execute that strategy at the best possible speed? Where does video fit in? Because, obviously I’m biased, but the reality is there are psychological principles at play in terms of why we do that right now. The reality is, as human beings, we evolved to read faces.
That’s just the way that we evolved. We evolved to read and trust micro expressions on faces. That’s how we judge people, for better or for worse, in many cases. You don’t get that via text. So, the future of customer stories is not text. The future of customer stories is video, and all of the different mediums that video is becoming.
The next thing is, in the near future, we won’t be on a traditional web browser. We will be in a more of a augmented reality situation—in a virtual reality situation.
This is several years away. So, it’s more looking into the future, but as we move eventually out of a browser, video is only going to be more important. Again, it’s just the emotional factor of video. You can’t tell tone from text.
Last, but not least, as I harp on why, as marketers, we need video. We’re still relatively early. A lot of companies don’t have any professional video testimonials, and the opportunity for our listeners is to make it your competitive advantage. Don’t wait until your competitors have a whole page of 10 amazing onsite and remote testimonials for every single vertical, and then micro content that addresses every single question or doubt that your buyers have.
Don’t wait to get to that point. Be the person in your market who gets to that point first, and you will reap the rewards of that.
00:57:10 Chase:
Well said. I’m excited to continue to diving into further video testimonial strategy in the future with you.
Thank you so much, again.
00:57:17 Sam:
Awesome. Thanks Chase.