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How do we navigate the turbulent waters of church polarization and foster unity? Join me, Margie Bryce, along with Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader Resources, as we tackle this pressing issue on the Crabby Pastor podcast.

With more denominations than you can count, the church is more divided than ever. We reflect on Jesus' prayer for oneness in John 17, and consider how societal instincts to identify enemies contribute to further fractures. Election seasons and post-COVID tensions have only heightened these divides, but there are new approaches pastors can take to foster a more unified community.

Michael and I explore how to manage the dynamics at play while fostering a relationship with God that transcends fear.

We also take a deep look at recognizing authoritarian and narcissistic leadership within the church. Identifying traits such as the use of fear, the creation of in-groups and out-groups, and the suppression of dissent that can help pastors self-reflect and avoid these pitfalls. Michael shares valuable resources for further understanding, and we emphasize the importance of inclusivity and holistic spiritual formation. Additionally, we address the critical issue of burnout among ministry leaders, offering tools and advice for self-assessment and recovery. Don't become the "Crabby Pastor"—listen in for insights on maintaining healthy self-care practices and fostering a thriving church community.

To connect with Michael... go HERE.

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Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for topics of interest or even if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.*MY WEBSITE* Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

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Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

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Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Both men and women will benefit from this discussion on how women leaders in ministry navigate the unique challenges of self-doubt and cultural barriers. Join us as Margie Bryce and our special guest Janyne McConnaughey uncover the intricacies of imposter syndrome and self-limiting narratives that often plague women in leadership. With a rich background in both supportive and restrictive church environments, Janyne sheds light on the critical need for male leaders to foster inclusive spaces and the invaluable role of self-awareness and self-compassion.

We are talking about sustainability in ministry leadership. Margie opens up about her own experience stepping back from pastoral duties to champion sustainable practices that prevent burnout. With her passion for self-care strategies, Margie offers practical advice and resources to help leaders maintain their well-being and fulfill God's plans without becoming overwhelmed. This episode is a heartfelt conversation that champions vulnerability, resilience, and a commitment to personal growth.

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**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for topics of interest or even if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.*MY WEBSITE* Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

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Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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This was such a fun conversation with renowned trauma expert Janyne McConnaughey... who joins us in this episode to learn more about how internal dialogue matters... a lot! Janyne shares invaluable insights from her professional work and personal healing journey, emphasizing the power of positive self-talk and the concept of metacognition—thinking about our thinking. This episode is designed to inspire better self-care and mindfulness in perceiving and speaking to ourselves, providing practical strategies to foster a more supportive internal narrative.

We also address the pervasive issue of negative self-talk, particularly in high-pressure environments like ministry. Reflecting on personal experiences, Janyne and I discuss how self-criticism can hinder performance and amplify the fear of judgment. We explore the importance of positive self-affirmation and the acceptance of imperfection (grace!), encouraging listeners to treat themselves with the same kindness they offer to friends.

Tune in for an episode packed with resources and encouragement for sustainable self-care practices

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**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Contact info:
Email me at crabbypastor@gmail.com with your input and ideas for topics of interest or even if you know someone who might be interesting to interview.*MY WEBSITE* Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

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Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Can holy friendships be the key to preventing burnout in ministry? Join us on the Crabby Pastor podcast as Margie Bryce hosts Michaele LaVigne to explore how deep spiritual connections can sustain and enrich pastoral life. Currently, Michaele contributes to the Spiritual Formation Initiative at Nazarene Theological Seminary, focusing on spiritual direction and coaching. She will be hosting a webinar on August 29 on how to start a holy friendship group (see link below).

In our conversation, Michaele shares a personal story of feeling isolated in a large congregation and how divine intervention led her to form a spiritually enriching small group with two lay ministers. Using a spiritual formation primer from Renovare, they engaged in diverse Christian practices, ranging from scripture memorization to social justice actions. This journey not only transformed their spiritual lives but also influenced their congregational practices. Discover how structured holy friendships can lead to profound spiritual growth and leadership transformation.

We also navigate the challenges of establishing holy friendships in ministry, especially for women in leadership roles. Reflecting on biblical examples like Moses and Jethro or Elizabeth and Mary, we discuss the power of these connections. The episode concludes with a critical discussion on recognizing and preventing burnout among ministry leaders, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices and safe spaces where pastors can be honest and supported.

To register for August 29 webinar, please go to:
www.nts.edu/holyfriendships

For more information on Renovare:
https://renovare.org/

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Can holy friendships be the key to preventing burnout in ministry? Join us on the Crabby Pastor podcast as Margie Bryce hosts Michaele LaVigne to explore how deep spiritual connections can sustain and enrich pastoral life. Currently, Michaele contributes to the Spiritual Formation Initiative at Nazarene Theological Seminary, focusing on spiritual direction and coaching. She will be hosting a webinar on August 29 on how to start a holy friendship group (see link below).In our conversation, Michaele shares a personal story of feeling isolated in a large congregation and how divine intervention led her to form a spiritually enriching small group with two lay ministers. Using a spiritual formation primer from Renovare, they engaged in diverse Christian practices, ranging from scripture memorization to social justice actions. This journey not only transformed their spiritual lives but also influenced their congregational practices. Discover how structured holy friendships can lead to profound spiritual growth and leadership transformation.We also navigate the challenges of establishing holy friendships in ministry, especially for women in leadership roles. Reflecting on biblical examples like Moses and Jethro or Elizabeth and Mary, we discuss the power of these connections. The episode concludes with a critical discussion on recognizing and preventing burnout among ministry leaders, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices and safe spaces where pastors can be honest and supported.To register for August 29 webinar, please go to:www.nts.edu/holyfriendshipsFor more information on Renovare:https://renovare.org/

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there, it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.Margie: 0:37

This is Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things self-care, so that ministry leaders can fulfill the things that God has asked them to do and offer God our best in the process. So I talk about all kinds of topics, and today we're going to talk about friendship and holy friendship in particular. I have Mikae Levine with me here and she has managed to participate in and help others to create these kinds of relationships, because we ought not to walk through life and through ministry alone and become lone rangers that will indeed, in time, wear on us and really deplete us. If we and we pray for community. I believe that's replicated in the Father, son and Holy Spirit for us, so there is a very holy purpose and design for us for that end. So Michaele and I are going to chat, but I'd like you to introduce yourself to us, please.Michaele: 1:50

Sure, sure. Thanks so much, Margie, for having me. So I am a mom of two. I have a 10-year-old and an 8-year-old. I've been married to my husband almost 19 years. Currently we live in South Bend, indiana, but my ministry journey has started in central Ohio. Got to be in at the ground level of a new start church there in a lower income neighborhood. That was a great place of growth and challenge for me. Yeah, just yeah. Well, that's a whole other story. We could talk about all the fruitfulness of that season. I was there while I was in seminary at Ashland Theological Seminary in Ohio.Michaele: 2:38

Then my husband and I spent a year of volunteer missionary service in Southern Africa, a little nation known as Swaziland, now called Eswatini. Then from there we were invited. I was invited to join the staff of Bethany First Church of the Nazarene out in Oklahoma, and that came through the time that we were in Africa. We partnered a lot with that congregation. So I served there for five years, was the pastor of discipleship and then, from Bethany First Church, with a colleague from Bethany First Church, launched a new community in Oklahoma City, like the urban core Oklahoma City, and that became Eighth Street Church of the Nazarene, and it was that you know that place.Michaele: 3:29

That really allowed me space to put some imaginings into practice, as you can do when you're starting from scratch.Michaele: 3:39

And so I was able to live into more of the spiritual formation realm of discipleship and wrote weekly practices for our congregation, really was able to lean into and offer a lot of the gifts of contemplative spirituality and Christian practice, and that also began some of my journey to what I do now, which is mostly spiritual direction. So I've been operating, serving as a certified spiritual director the last three years, which also coincided with our family move to South Bend for my husband's work, and I don't pastor a church in the same way that I had, you know, for those um for my previous life, um, but I do lead a house church gathering on Sundays and then the majority of my work throughout the week in ministry is spiritual direction, seeing folks individually, most of whom are pastors, um, but then also leading some workshops, retreats, um and conference kinds of offerings along the lines of, you know, contemplative prayer and spiritual practice and holy friendship, which is what we're talking about Sure and I forgot that we shared the Ashland thing.Margie: 5:03

Ah, yes, I was out there for my doctoral work and I love Ashland, love that place dearly. So you also have a role at Nazarene Theological, is that correct?Michaele: 5:14

Yes, yes, so just recently we launched what we're calling the Spiritual Formation Initiative through Nazarene Theological Seminary and I am directing that along with Dr Doug Hardy and Dave Sharps who's overseeing Praxis. So it's really kind of an extension of what has been happening within the classroom already for a long time the investment in individual spiritual formation of the pastor. But now we're working to extend that beyond the classroom and into pastors' lives and their congregations. So one of the things that we're doing is connecting a network of other spiritual directors to provide resourcing and care for our pastors and then create opportunities for congregations also to receive the gifts and lean into that deeper kind of listening and discernment that can be offered through those more slow and formative ways of being together.Margie: 6:28

Yeah, that slow down thing. You have to work at that.Margie: 6:34

As iconic as that sounds. You absolutely. I've learned that fairly recently and I've also had a spiritual director. I still have a spiritual director and then last, my last pastoral charge, I had a coach at the same time. So that was, you know, very different. Um, but I know, even for me as a coach, I'm pretty. I'm going to ask at some point when it's appropriate, where's god, god in this, what do you think, and those kinds of spiritual direction things. So I see the great value in doing that and I have to be really honest, some of my connectivity with coaching and spiritual direction is as wonderful and valuable as they certainly are.Margie: 7:23

And I still think that today not just in the past, but some of that initially for me was because I had trouble connecting with other ministry leaders to sit down. We would talk about this when I was out at NTS, we had to write a rule of life and all that, and we talked about having others on the journey, but I found that I had trouble connecting with other people. I mean, we would talk about it. We would say I know I really need to do this, I know it's really valuable and so I would take some initiative and try to do okay date, time and place you know and try to nail it. And once it moved to that place, people lost interest and I was very confused by that and so I thought I got to do something, especially when I went back out to Ashland. And again, this is some of the process that's involved we're writing our personal vision statement and again it comes up about don't be doing this journey alone, and I attempted again.Michaele: 8:32

And.Margie: 8:33

I just I don't know if I get a failure grade for this or what, but I do know and we'll leave this kind of information in the show notes about upcoming workshops where you're going to help us with that. So talk to me some about your journey with Holy Friendships, how that evolved.Michaele: 8:55

Yeah, I think what you say is so true, Margie, because we I think for a while anyway, at least within this current and maybe one generation of education prior to us we know that we need to do things together, but it's the how that we struggle with. There seems to be a real disconnect with how do we actually do this together? Right, and I do think that it makes a lot of sense. Reaching out to a spiritual director and or a coach is is one really important way, right, and and that that matters deeply. I don't think that they are mutually exclusive, though. I think we need both. We need the one voice that is speaking as a spiritual director that says you know, I'm going to listen deeply with you for how the Holy Spirit is working and all of our conversational emphasis is focused on you. It's not, you know, reciprocal in that moment.Michaele: 10:07

But then we also need those spaces that are mutually reciprocal, that we can be together and say we together are going to listen to one another and also listen to the Holy Spirit with each other and give guidance as the Spirit directs us. That is not an easy thing to accomplish because most of our ways of being together and our ways of speaking with one another are quite different than that. I felt like you, I felt a need for this for a very long time before I actually was introduced to anything that felt like it was meeting that need. And I will tell you that it came through Renovare. Okay, I'm familiar with that organization.Michaele: 11:05

I attended a workshop day not long after moving to Oklahoma city. There was a um, a retreat workshop in Tulsa hosted by Renovare and was really just kind of a one day, um, deep dive into um, into all things, spiritual formation, and okay, how do we getting to that? How question like, how do we actually engage? And their, their push was you know, if this feels like something that you are being drawn into, it's not a singular, it's not an individual enterprise. So find one or two other people use this workbook. They really recommend it as a starting place of a thing called the spiritual formation primer and go through and just practice. And it really was outlining like the broad, the multiple streams of Christian spirituality and tradition through Christian history and saying the necessity of each of those, and then also gave practices to you know, grow into those different streams and, you know, said this isn't something for you to do alone, it's something for you to do with a group of people in prayerful conversation with one another.Michaele: 12:31

Well, I had just moved to Oklahoma city, bethany area, and was a young member of a staff and just felt like I was at a loss as to who I could be in these kinds of conversations with. It did not feel like I had the longevity in that place or the sense of safety as a staff person among a very large congregation to just find lay people, find lay people. And there weren't there were very few other women on staff at that point in time that I felt like we would have that kind of connection and so I just sat on it for several months and every time that thought would come up I would just kind of get disgruntled and be like, wow it's so unfair, that I can't do anything about this, you know.Michaele: 13:26

And then one day I remember so clearly, you know those moments where you know that God is breaking through. It's not an audible voice, but it's so clear and I was grumbling again and just felt that nudge of like this is something that you need to do, and in exasperation I was just like I can't do anything about it. You know, I don't have people, and so clearly I sense the spirit say, well, when are you going to ask me? Are you going to ask me if I have any ideas about who you should? Oh, yeah, I know.Margie: 14:05

And then you, in those moments you kind of feel like this is sort of Christianity 101.Michaele: 14:09

Right, oh, asking God for guidance about what God's asking you to do. What a novel idea.Michaele: 14:15

No, no, that's so funny when those moments happen funny when those moments happen and lo and behold I mean it was. It was so vivid Like I. I paused and I said well, okay, god, I'll humor you. You know, sure, tell me who you think would make a good you know, holy friendship partners with me, or whatever. And I mean those two names flew at me so fast and they had never appeared on my radar before. But as soon as they, you know, as soon as I wrote them down in my journal, I was like huh, that actually might work.Michaele: 14:54

There are two ladies who were, you know, in their own process of determining a call, but were currently lay ministers in the church, working their way through local and district license kind of questions. And one was teaching a Sunday school class and two, you know, different age ranges. But I thought, huh, okay. So I reached out to one and then the other and told them what I was thinking and that I had asked the other person and of course, I mean the Holy Spirit just orchestrated it so perfectly. Each of them said I have been longing for something like this and they knew each other which I didn't know, and they knew each other which I didn't know, and they didn't know each other well, but they had had a connection, you know, like a decade prior, and it was really good and they had very fond memories of one another. And so we just was like okay. So we started working through this.Michaele: 15:57

I think it's like a nine or 10 week process or session we didn't meet weekly, I don't think and so we did that spiritual formation primer through Renovare, and at the end of those weeks, well, I should say it's kind of like it's teaching, like you read through kind of curriculum together and then you have discussion and then you pick a practice that you want to try between that time and the next time that you meet, and the next time that you meet you talk about what that practice was like.Michaele: 16:33

You know, what did we learn, what did you experience, whatever and so we did that for I don't know eight to 10 weeks, and then at the end of it, it gives you like a kind of a way to review how. What was this process like? Do we want to keep meeting? Is there anyone that we want to add? And we decided to keep meeting and we didn't use the exact form the whole time. That kind of gave us structure, but we did try to have some kind of structure to keep us on track so that it wasn't just a free for all of conversation. You know we would give an update about.Michaele: 17:11

here's what I sense God doing. Here's how you can, we can, pray for one another. And then here's something that I want to practice or work on between the time that we meet next and then we would.Margie: 17:22

So would that be a spiritual practice that they work on?Michaele: 17:25

Yes, or would it?Michaele: 17:26

be, yes, usually yeah. So the way that book works is that it gives you, like the I think it's six or eight streams. It calls it of Christian tradition and practice, calls it of Christian tradition and practice and it outlines like the here's, you know, within the evangelical tradition, within the holiness tradition, within the social justice tradition, within the contemplative and incarnational tradition. So it gives you all of these like ways to practice in that area, and so every time we met we would choose one of those practices. So some would feel like a very classic, you know spiritual discipline, like memorizing scripture, or you know a very specific way of praying. Others were like, you know, write an encouraging note to your politician, or, you know, send a letter to someone in prison from the social justice tradition, or you know just, it was a. It was a broad variety, shaped the way that I led my congregation in spiritual formation and then shaped a lot of the practices that I wrote for our congregation. That ended up becoming the book Living the Way of Jesus. But that's a whole other.Margie: 18:50

Right, right, that's all. So let me ask and I will put the link to Renovare because I've been to one of their workshops day long and they are amazing for sure, because I've been to one of their their workshops day long and they are amazing for sure. And but what I would like to ask now is how do you pattern your current?Michaele: 19:14

process of holy friendships, yeah, so. So the process that I described just, you know that started with the Renovare. That began in about 2011, I think, and we met pretty faithfully up until 2015 or so, and then there were quite a few changes and we added someone to that group and then someone moved out of the country and so, you know, it just was a little bit in flux and so we stopped meeting regularly about, um, maybe it was 2016 that that happened.Michaele: 19:53

Anyway there were several years where I wasn't meeting regularly with any kind of um group. And then during COVID, when everybody was just in the height COVID and you know the in the wake of George Floyd's murder and Black Lives Matter movement, and just so much upheaval and distress, exhaustion and isolation, it just felt like I needed something. But I looked around and noticed that the majority of people that I, you know, I have a broad network, as you do, you know, being a pastor, you have a broad network of other pastors. And I was like man, we pastors are some of the most isolated and exhausted among the bunch. This is not a good place to be.Michaele: 20:48

And so, again, I really sensed this, I really sensed this drawing into this way of of relationship again. And so again I prayed and asked okay, who, who are the women pastors that I can? You know that that really are my peers that we can engage with together? And this time it was quite different. We already knew, you know, everything was virtual, so I wasn't limited to geography, and I knew of a handful of women that I had engaged with online or had seen speaking, or, you know, we're in where we're in some level of communication already and just kind of admiring one another. We're encouraging one another from afar, right. And so I reached out to, I think, six and just kind of said, hey, I have this idea, what do you think? And four jumped on it and said yes, please, this is really.Margie: 21:52

How many did you ask? Just for those of us that are sitting back?Michaele: 21:55

going. Yeah, no, I think I asked five or six, and four students, yeah, okay, I think. So Maybe I'll have to go back, but anyway, it wasn't like I didn't cast a wide net. I really just, you know, and I even thought, if everybody says yes, we might be too large of a group, you know, but these are the people that came to mind, so I'll follow up. So we met as a group of five for a while, for two years, and then now we are a group of four.Michaele: 22:32

One of those women made some transitions and is no longer meeting with us, doing some other things, doing some other things, and that group did not start with the same level of structure that my previous group did. I think everybody at that point was nobody knew each other well. Some of us had known each other in previous ways, but nobody knew each other well and we were living in four different States, and so we decided that we just really wanted to get to know each other and pray together and create a place of safety and honesty for one another. Now this is a group of really mature and I I mean I think some of the I mean I'm biased, because now they are like my soul sisters you know, but some of the best of the best Right.Michaele: 23:35

And so you know, we have folks in that group who have studied spiritual formation and direction for a long time, and I think everyone but me now has a doctorate in some level of, you know, spirituality or formation. So we weren't coming into this newbies, but we also were not again. We were like people who know what you need to do, but you just don't know how to do it, and so we gave each other the space to practice and we just like, tried stuff. So at this point, we've now been together four years, I think. Yeah, wow, almost four years, because I think we started meeting the end of summer 2020 or beginning of fall, and we've seen each other through family deaths and work transitions and illnesses, just big moves. I mean, it's just been, you know, all the stuff of life.Michaele: 24:43

So at this point, we need far less structure to really talk about deep the things of how goes it with your soul you know, but we needed some guide rails at the beginning to say, like, how do we structure this sacred time together different than any other time that we meet? So now we're in a rhythm where we take turns, one person leads each time, so it doesn't fall to one person every time and that person just leads off with you know some kind of small shared practice or devotional, you know something that we've read in our own devotional readings and give some like questions for thought, and then we go around and share along with like hey, what, how is you know this situation that we've been praying for and how is your spouse handling? You know the current whatever, and and then we, we pray together. We also have a very active WhatsApp thread so that in between times that we meet, where we're sharing life and talking and and keeping the conversation going that way, yeah, so you meet how often?Michaele: 26:02

Again? Well, in the summer it's quite all over the place. We try to meet once a month in the summer, and then in the office, and then in the rest of the time it's every other week. Okay, all right.Margie: 26:16

So I think I'm guessing it's purely a guess that what you're doing now is what has influenced your upcoming workshop on this, absolutely yeah.Michaele: 26:29

Yeah. So the Holy Friendship webinar or workshop, whatever is offered through the Wine Coop Center for Women in Leadership at Nazarene Theological Seminary, we hope and we are planning to broaden that and invite some male colleagues and so that we can also offer this as a non-gender specific offering. But right now we have specifically designed this webinar and the accompanying resource for women clergy. Again, it's because that's who we are particular to, the there's something particular to the challenges of women in ministry that this seems like absolutely essential. So that's where we started. We also, you know, recognize there's all kinds of. We seen the need for this and we long for people to participate, but we can't keep adding individuals to our group. That's just not how you do it.Margie: 27:50

What's the, what's the you'd want? Maybe what four?Michaele: 27:54

five. Yeah, I would say probably we operated with five. That's the largest group that I've been a part of. We operated with five. That's the largest group that I've been a part of and I think that's probably max, mostly because maybe if you're in person it's a little bit different. But organizing time schedules gets challenging and then also keeping your meeting time to where everybody has equal opportunity to share that that's really really important and the more people you add, the harder it is to actually do that.Margie: 28:37

So you're looking at maybe, how long does an average or typical.Michaele: 28:41

We try to meet an hour. Sometimes, you know, if we're like, hey, we haven't met in a while and we really need a longer session, then we'll, all you know, plan for an hour and a half or something. We've also now met twice in person for like a kind of retreat all together and we've done that like, I think, two days each time and that's been really, really good.Margie: 29:07

Nice, nice. Well, you had an era where you practice the Renovare process and then you had a time in between where you didn't have anything, and then move to a time where now you you do again have this. Can you describe for us, then, what you felt during that era where you had nothing?Michaele: 29:34

I would say, while I didn't have anything that was holy friendship, I had other things. Anything that was holy friendship, I had other things. Um, that was the. Those intervening years were the height of, um, my toddler, mommy phase and church planting days oh, that's busy. It was very busy. My husband was working on his PhD. It was very busy.Michaele: 30:03

But in that busyness there was a different kind of holy friendship that emerged from our church planting pastor team degree, you know, but a lot of shared life, shared prayer, shared visioning, so that I did not feel like I was going it alone.Michaele: 30:31

But it just took on a different shape during that season and that's also the season that I started regular spiritual direction direction.Michaele: 30:38

So I think that you know again, it's not the same thing, but a lot of what I it felt like.Michaele: 30:54

There were things that I, for as much as I trusted and loved you know, my initial holy friendship group there were some things that I I needed to be challenged in and process through. That needed to happen at the non-mutual level. Right, it needed to be me and the spiritual director really wrestling some things out, or really me and the and the Holy spirit, you know, and wrestling is probably not the right word, because the spirit engages us so gently and invitationally, um, but that seems like an invitation to go into a deeper place. That prepared me for what was next. So it wasn't like I had nothing, um, but it was just a very different and I think, I think that's an important, that's an important thing for us to name and give permission for the need for different seasons and the way that, you know, our relationships and our practices can ebb and flow based on the particularities of any given season, and that spirit is maybe more okay with that than we are.Margie: 32:12

Sure, If you had to name, then what? Why we need this what would you say?Michaele: 32:24

Why we need? Why we need?Margie: 32:27

each other, why we need the holy friendship yeah.Michaele: 32:36

Gosh, there's so many things that we need. There's so many things that we need. I think it is really difficult as pastors to find spaces where it's safe to be known.Margie: 32:56

Yeah, I can say it this way we need a safe place where we can be honest. Yes, exactly.Michaele: 33:06

And I would say that at the beginning of our holy friendship, this kind of second edition that I'm a part of now, I don't know that you can't just manufacture that safety in an instant right. It takes a level of trust that grows over time. But over time, you know, I know that to those women I am not Pastor Michaele LaVigne, church Planter Michaele LaVigne, spiritual Director Michaele LaVigne, conference Speaker Michaele LaVinge, conference speaker Michaele LaVigne or author Michaele LaVigne. I'm not. I don't have to put on a show, even on the days where I have nothing good to show up with, you know. And and then there's also the times that there have been for each of us.Michaele: 34:20

There's been seasons where something so hard is happening that it's hard to even say it out loud, let alone voice it to another person. And yet the incredible gift of walking with people who the hardest stuff out loud, the bad news, the thing that feels like the impossible situation. They don't rush to fix it, they don't judge you, they just sit with you where you're at and commit to praying, and pray with wisdom, I mean, it's just and then speak the truth that you forget sometimes. Right Like this is not what, what you are feeling and thinking and all of the shame that you're piling on yourself right now. That is not of God we have. We have to have people that say that to us For sure, for sure, for sure.Michaele: 36:06

In a post-gendered or misogynistic society where, like you know, we're past all of that, right, and the reality is, and there are times when we need, as women, to say to one another you know, you're coming up against the principality and powers of sexism, right, like you know, that's what this is, yeah. And then it's like, oh gosh, you're right. Okay, now we can name it, now we can put that out there and say, all right, then that changes how I handle things or how we're going to pray about this, and then giving wise and bold counsel to one another, because being a woman in that place of leadership is so challenging, because you don't want to play the gender card right all the time.Margie: 37:01

Right, you don't, but you don't want to play the gender card right All the time. Right, you don't, but you don't want to always hesitate to kind of go in that direction. But I just had a conversation yesterday with somebody where I said not only am I female, and if I complain to God, I'm like this little yapping piece of clay saying you know, you're male, which then I'm telling God you made a mistake which I can't do theologically or anything. You know, maybe it's just it I said, and then I'm short. So this is kind of you know, and you have to figure out how to still function according to what God is asking you to do, regardless.Margie: 37:48

And that's why I'm thinking of the picture of Moses and his father-in-law, jethro, coming and holding arms up, and you need people to come around you and you need to be that. You need to hold somebody else's arm up as well. It's a real mutual kind of gift, really. It is.Michaele: 38:04

I also think of the story of Elizabeth and Mary, you know, and I think this is such a beautiful example of holy friendship where, quite literally, one is giving witness to what God is growing inside of the other. Oh, I like that picture, oh yeah, and saying you're not crazy, I see it too, and you are deeply blessed in in this and that mutual rejoicing, solidarity in the hardship of people not understanding and thinking that you're crazy. And you know, being marginalized and and knowing that there's a hard, your favor in God's eyes also brings a harder road ahead. But, but you are not. But, but there's another person who knows what it's like, and I think that is what we so desperately need and what I've been so deeply fortunate to receive.Margie: 39:17

Well, thank you for painting this beautiful picture for us and for sure I will be adding your workshop link. I'll get that from you and I'll put that in with the show notes and I'll push it out to the places that I can push and hopefully we will have more people to step in to this and get to experience even a taste of what you have presented to us today would be amazing, yeah.Michaele: 39:57

Well, I'm glad. Yeah, well I'm glad. I'll let you know too, because I think that the how is even more it's not more important session preview or a kind of a getting started sort of thing, similar to what I received in the Renovare stuff. But this is particular to women clergy groups and gives us a chance to set the tone for a different way of being together and in conversation. So that will come. As you know, people who sign up for the webinar will receive that automatically with the cost of the webinar.Margie: 40:56

Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is Right Great, and the cost of the webinar is yeah, you were going to ask me that.Michaele: 41:02

I'm pretty sure it's $30.Margie: 41:04

Okay, that's a deal. Yeah, you can say $30-ish. Yes, if it hasn't been nailed because we, you know record these way in advance and you know stuff. But yeah, so it is. Let's is, let's say, affordable. Yeah, we're trying to make it so, yes, okay well, thank you so much for being on the crabby pastor podcast. I appreciate this so much, but here's a question that I frequently not always, because I don't know. It falls out of my head sometimes to even ask. But, um, is there anything about life and ministry that makes you crabby?Michaele: 41:48

Yeah, yes.Margie: 41:52

Would you have any particular item that you would care to share?Michaele: 41:56

Oh, mercy. Well, I would say I mostly get crabby these days in trying to organize my schedule. Oh, okay, it's the tedium of administrative stuff, not having another brain to help keep me straight. Um, and I recently found where I had made a scheduling error and double booked myself. And um can't be at a conference and a retreat at the same time, and so that makes me crabby.Margie: 42:37

Oh well, thank you so much for playing that game and and sharing that with us, because we all get crabby?Margie: 42:46

I always ask this because at a conference, um, a gentleman came up to my table and said, because it had a crab on it, and said you know that stuff? And he said I'm never crabby, I don't know. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I'm never crabby, I don't know, like, I don't know what you're talking about, I'm never crabby. He didn't say I don't know what you're talking about, but he just said I'm not crabby. And I said well, why don't you go find your spouse and bring her here? And he never came back. Oh, surprise, but that's funny. You know, when you're not serving in a pastoral capacity, I feel like I'm a little more emboldened to push at times. So, anyway, um, that truth that we need to hear, I guess. Well, thank you so much for um being on the podcast and and, uh, blessings on your continued ministry in this new venture and in all the ventures that you have going right now. Thank you, thank you so much Blessings on you.Margie: 43:51

So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about. So I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 45:18

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe. I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom. That's B-R-Y-C-E. Margiebicecom, that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebricecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. And there are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom. It's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 46:56

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook. I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help.Margie: 48:07

I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

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Find out how to navigate the complexities of ministry while staying true to your calling with insights from Beth Caulfield, author of "People Throw Rocks at Things that Shine." In this episode, we unpack the inevitable messiness and unexpected hardships that come with following one's spiritual path. Beth provides wisdom on how to remain steadfast, emphasizing that God uses every experience, even the tough ones, to fulfill His greater plan. Drawing inspiration from the Apostle Paul, we discuss the importance of maintaining a close relationship with God and keeping our eyes on Jesus to stay resilient and fruitful in ministry.

Discover practical tools and heartfelt advice on balancing self-care with spiritual duties. Reflecting on moments of divine encouragement, we highlight the significance of finding personal spiritual disciplines, fostering supportive spiritual communities, and integrating self-care practices to avoid burnout. We also embrace the reality of our "crabby" moments, providing strategies to manage them effectively and sustain a healthy spiritual life. Tune in for an episode brimming with encouragement, practical tips, and spiritual nourishment aimed at helping you thrive in your ministry journey.

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**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

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Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Kathy was my spiritual director for about eight years. This means she endured A LOT because she dealt with ME.
Kathy passed away from Alzheimer's in January 2022. Her illness took her away too early from many who benefitted from her wisdom and wit. Here I'm sharing some of Kathy's best pieces of wisdom as a tribute to her.
Her influence on the ministry I am called to is profound. For one, I have a spiritual director bent that impacts how I coach others. I hope you find some treasures in this podcast that will be sustaining.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Do you ever feel like the pressure of ministry is weighing you down? This episode is your lifeline! Join me, Margie Bryce, for a soul-refreshing conversation on self-care for ministry leaders. I'm bringing you a wealth of wisdom on building resilience through hobbies, recreational activities, and focusing on single tasks that give your brain a much-needed rest from the pressures of ministry. We'll also talk about the invaluable support of a coach or spiritual director and I'll be sharing a list of suggestions on how to rally that support from your congregations.

As we unpack a PDF file detailing 50 ways to Support Your Pastor across five dimensions of wellness, we'll redefine what success in ministry looks like - and it's not just about numbers and money. Above all, I'll drop a reminder we all need to hear from time to time: our main job is to pass the baton along to the next generation of followers of Jesus. Get ready to soak in an episode filled with insights and encouragement tailored for those who've answered the call to ministry.

For more information on the transformative Ministerial Coaching Initiative, generously supported by the Lilly Foundation and facilitated through Point Loma Nazarene's Center for Pastoral Leadership, CLICK HERE.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

Do you ever feel like the pressure of ministry is weighing you down? This episode is your lifeline! Join me, Margie Bryce, for a soul-refreshing conversation on self-care for ministry leaders. I'm bringing you a wealth of wisdom on building resilience through hobbies, recreational activities, and focusing on single tasks that give your brain a much-needed rest from the pressures of ministry. We'll also talk about the invaluable support of a coach or spiritual director and I'll be sharing a list of suggestions on how to rally that support from your congregations.As we unpack a PDF file detailing 50 ways to Support Your Pastor

EditSignacross five dimensions of wellness, we'll redefine what success in ministry looks like - and it's not just about numbers and money. Above all, I'll drop a reminder we all need to hear from time to time: our main job is to pass the baton along to the next generation of followers of Jesus. Get ready to soak in an episode filled with insights and encouragement tailored for those who've answered the call to ministry.

For more information on the transformative Ministerial Coaching Initiative, generously supported by the Lilly Foundation and facilitated through Point Loma Nazarene's Center for Pastoral Leadership, CLICK HERE.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader, fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. Hey there, before we get started on today's episode, I want to give you this opportunity. Today's episode, I want to give you this opportunity to enhance your self-care. Part of self-care is having another individual come alongside you, whether you're looking at a coach, a spiritual director or whatever means you have, so that you're not walking this journey alone, alone, that you have another person walking with you, and that is the ministerial coaching initiative. I've been a part of that now for this past year and as a coach, I have enjoyed walking alongside ministry leaders. This is a Lilly Foundation grant that is providing coaching through Point Loma Nazarene, their Center for Pastoral Leadership. So what I'm going to do is put a link in the show notes for where you can go to get more information. You know, tell them the Krabby Pastors sent you. They'll laugh about that, but tell them that I sent you. So this is one of the avenues where I provide coaching for ministry leaders and you know I do it independently as well and through several other places. So I wanted to offer this to you because you know, maybe you'd like to try on coaching and maybe you'd like to make a commitment to do this is eight sessions and there is a cost involved. It's a good deal because I was. I'm always about the good deal always. So you know if you're going to try on coaching, you don't want to try it on just once. You know I'm going to have one session just see how it goes. I think you're at least going to benefit from three to four to get a sense of whether it's a good fit and how it's going to operate for you. Because coaching is its own thing. It's not exactly therapy, it's not exactly a lot of stuff, but it's its own entity that helps you discover and empowers you to discover some new solutions to existing situations or how you want to manage yourself in the midst of your ministry context. So maybe you want to check this out. The link is in the show notes. It will be there through the end of the year and then the program does start in January, so that's why it's there for that long. So I hope you'll consider this.Margie: 3:11

I've been working through a PDF file that says 50 ways to support your pastor across five dimensions of welling, and I worked on a good share of it in our last episode, and I want to remind us that this connects back to episode 80, where the people at Westpath, which is an agency of the United Methodist Church, identified five dimensions of well-being Physical, financial, emotional, spiritual and social. Physical, financial, emotional, spiritual and social and these 50 ways are divided into each one of these dimensions, and I got through most of it. But what I wanted to do was finish up the social dimension here, because it's a really important area for you to consider how it is that you're supporting your own well-being. Again, I want to remind you that this document is available in the show notes and I will be sure to put that there so that you have your own copy where maybe you want to discuss some of this with your people in leadership. I wanted to go through this social dimension and I think what I want to start with this is not necessarily in order that it's on their happy sheet here and again. I do want to remind us that I think I think these apply broadly to whatever denomination or tribe, or that you hang with wherever God has planted your feet. At ministry, let's say I think these apply very broadly to the life of ministry leaders and I'm still pushing back on that 24-7 model that we have pushed into and because I think we're overly pushed into levels of success and frequently those levels of success are connected to.Margie: 5:18

Now, some books say nickels and noses, some say butts in the pew and bucks. That's another one where it's, you know, it's the money you raise, it's it's the number of people and certainly the number of people I mean it's important. On the other hand, it's good to remember and I was really reminded of this Listen to I've never listened to Christine Kane in a passing the baton sermon that she gave. It's like 11 years ago. Because I'm listening to it, I'm thinking when is it? I don't know, I'm not even was never familiar with her before. She's Australian and really great word.Margie: 5:59

But it talks about how you're passing. Your main job is that you are a person who is responsible to pass a baton along to the next generation of followers of Jesus. So that was a great, great reminder about what it is and what success really is, about being sure that the baton in the race is passed to the person coming up behind you that's going to go on ahead of you in the race. So, anyway, I just want to remind us about success and have that in proper perspective, for self-care reasons, because you want to pace yourself accordingly. You can't move far and fast carrying a very heavy load. You just you're gonna. That's the recipe for burnout, actually.Margie: 6:51

So, and that has been my passion and concern, after having served in pastoral ministry in a couple of different churches where I brought some revitalization in and got the people up and serving, because I kept thinking, well, what value would Jesus have in having a church that is just dotting its I's and crossing its T's and not really serving its community, not really serving the purposes of God? You know, god will just kind of let you dwindle away because, god's way nicer than I would be, I might be smoting, I'm smoting and thinking it's going to motivate people, which is just ridiculous, I know. But and that is why I am not God right, for sure, for sure, for sure. So God's kindness leads us to repentance, right, keep that in mind. God's kindness leads us to repentance, right, keep that in mind. Okay, I'm going to go back to these social dimensions, because you're saying what? Just get back to the list, will you the ones I want to yammer on about? In the list of social dimensions, near the end, it says and again, these are kind of instructions to people who are in charge of caring for the pastor in any local congregation Avoid scheduling church meetings or activities requiring the pastor's presence more than two nights per week.Margie: 8:17

Okay, now you know. Again, this is in honor of pace yourself. Pace yourself After having very long work days and then they roll into evenings that can very easily become at least two 12-hour days. I've seen it happen, I've lived it before, and that just anything beyond that is just more than what you need to do it. That kind of fits in with the one that was from the emotional dimension episode talking about identifying how you work with the pastor to identify which church programs and activities truly require the pastor's presence, because Because in some cases it doesn't we're trying not to be character driven or you know whatever.Margie: 9:10

Have an individual pastor, just be all that and a bag of chips, because it's too easy for people to get very attached to whoever the pastor is, and then it becomes about following the pastor, and any good pastor knows that you want your people to follow Jesus, right, not the pastor, as as much as that, you know. We secretly don't want to admit something like that. But it's nice, you know, it's nice to to get the accolades, it's nice to have the respect butades, it's nice to have the respect, but really you want your people to follow Jesus. So we're talking about how the pastor's time is used here, and this advocates no more than two nights a week should the pastor have to haul themselves out. Not only that, but many pastors have families. That, but many pastors have families.Margie: 10:07

And when the kids get to be a certain age some friends have called those the busy years, you know, where you feel like you're just driving kids and spectating. There was one year, I think I boy, I was so glad when golf season came because all I had to do was pick them up at the 18th hole. You know, know, that's it, as I had gone through oh gosh basketball. And I had gone through what else? Hockey, and I had gone through baseball season, yeah, so when it was all in one year. So, yeah, golf was a treat. I just picked them up at the end, not that I didn't want to see my kid golf, but you know, I mean that alone is taxing and you can say, well, I'll just dump that on my spouse. Yeah, no, you want to help, you want to be a part of that, you want to see that. So, anyway, avoid more than two nights a week is what they're advocating for. Avoid more than two nights a week is what they're advocating for.Margie: 11:10

Okay, welcome the pastor's spouse and family as a part of the congregation and community, without unrealistic expectations or demands such as there's a such as here, such as expecting the pastor's children to always be perfectly behaved, or expecting the spouse to be an unpaid staff member. Oh, my gosh, somebody out there is applauding that. That actually made it into ink on a paper somewhere. And I, yeah, I that expectation of an unpaid staff member. You know it's like oh, you can play the piano, wink, wink. You know why I don't get this something for nothing deal that some churches seem to have.Margie: 11:57

And I, I experienced that many years ago when I was asked well, you can be on my staff, what's the least amount that we can pay you, which I thought was. I thought this is a rude question, isn't it? And I should have. Had I been a little older you know, female I might have said something, but I wasn't. And I just felt like I had to go home and calculate something and I felt very pressured because I thought, if I get this wrong, I'm gonna, you know, not get the position. Or if I, then if I state an amount that I think is an appropriate pay, I might not get the job. Or maybe I should just say, oh, you don't have to pay me at all, which then has your congregation not ascribing a proper value to what you bring to the table. So, you know, that might not be the same in some nonprofit startups or that kind of thing, but it was. It was pressure. It was pressure for, you know, wink, wink, how cheap can we get you? Which I think is an incredibly rude question. And the rude thing is a big deal, because it's love is patient, love is kind, love is not rude.Margie: 13:20

Just saying, let's see, encourage the pastor's participation in a clergy accountability support group and allow him or her time during the work week to participate. So, pastors, if you are attending a clergy accountability or support group in some fashion that counts as your work hours. That's part of what you are being, I guess I want to say paid for. You know that is a part of your work is to stay connected to other pastors and be accountable and get the support that you need from other people and have a place that you can again process and you do not have to get off the clock to do that.Margie: 14:08

Just saying Encourage the pastor to socialize with others outside the church in quotes, family with whom he or she can step outside the pastoral role for a period of time, and this is important. This is a self-care thing. What happens when you socialize? Because that kind of goes hand in hand with the next one. So let me just include that for the sake of conversation. It's not really conversation, it's a monologue. This is a monologue, but for the sake of my monologue here, understand that the social events with church members, although it's fun for everyone, are not always truly social events for the pastor, who can be pulled into the pastoral role at any time, and that's a thing. That is definitely a thing that you get pulled into a pastoral role when you are with church members.Margie: 15:11

Not not always, not 100% of the time, because I know somebody saying well, I, you know my doesn't work that way for me. Well, yay for that and for you about that. But in many cases what happens is you know you put the pastor hat off and then you put the pastor hat on and you know it's a matter of am I now on or off? And we need some off time. We need time where we can take the pastoral hat off. So that's why it's important to socialize with others outside of your church family. They also say respect the pastor's time, set aside to spend time with their family. Our first line of ministry is our family. Really, I can't tell you how many pastoral families have really suffered because pastors have, you know, set those things aside to the detriment of their families and their marriages. That is not. I don't think that is God-honoring, I just don't. So you want to, for sure, support that, support the pastor. Also. Here's another one Support the pastor in getting out of town regularly, particularly when serving in a small town, so they can engage in activities outside the church's direct mission field.Margie: 16:41

Just saying you need to step back from the work environment. Yes, it's a calling, yes, it's a vocation, but it's also a demanding one, and you need to just step back for a moment. I think about when Jesus stepped back from the throngs of people wanting stuff from him and went up to the mountain and prayed. Now maybe that wasn't social, but maybe he brought a disciple or two. Then it is sort of that's a bit of a stretch, but you kind of get the picture. Even Jesus stepped back for a minute and had to come up for air. And if Jesus had to come up for air, then I think we do as well. We do as well and I'm going to finish up with this one.Margie: 17:31

Nobody ever encouraged me to do this but encourage the pastor to engage in hobbies and enjoyable recreational activities outside the church setting, and this is a facet of self-care that I label as create and dream. You need to have a hobby or something where, when you do it, you lose track of time, and that's because you can only focus on that one thing, not on the 50 or more things at the church that are calling for your attention at the church that are calling for your attention. And by focusing on just one thing, actually neuroscience says your brain rests a bit from the demand of a heavy load or lots of things on your to-do list. All of that becomes for a time non-existent and you can just focus on one thing exclusively, so I'm going to leave that there. There's way more on that list and maybe you'd like a copy so that you can see that someone actually did write these things down People in official capacity, people who care deeply for the well-being of those who serve in churches and church plants, and so these are suggestions.Margie: 19:00

I guess I think they're more than suggestions. Really, I think it's more of a list of. This is the way it ought to run folks it out of, run folks and how to support your, your ministry leader, your main pastor in your church. So maybe this episode and the one before is something you want to share with church board members. You could use the podcast for a discussion, along with the 50 ways sheet, and use that to talk through the things on the list here that you want to own and maybe the things that you don't, and talk through why that is, and that way you can get the support that you need from your congregation leaders.Margie: 19:56

Hey, friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.Margie: 20:05

I make stained glass as part of my self-care, and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 20:39

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

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Are you determined to steer clear of becoming the 'Crabby Pastor,' exhausted and irritable? If so, this episode (which is Part 1 of a two-part series) will help guide you to sustain yourself in the demanding world of ministry.

We start with a look at 50 Ways to Support Your Pastor Across Five Dimensions of Well-Being: social, physical, financial, emotional, and spiritual—that will fortify your pastoral journey. This is a document available HERE which was produced by Wespath, an agency concerned with pastoral well-being associated with the United Methodist Church.

As our conversation unfolds, we put a spotlight on the vital art of setting boundaries. Explore the significance of rest, rejuvenation, and self-renewal in your pastoral care routine. Discover the secrets of planning vacations effectively while ensuring seamless pastoral care coverage in your absence. Uncover the emotional fortitude needed in ministry, and harness valuable resources like coaches, counselors, and spiritual guides.

In conclusion, we emphasize the invaluable concept of renewal leaves. Tune in now to master the art of balancing pastoral responsibilities with self-care, ensuring you never succumb to becoming the 'Crabby Pastor.' Your rejuvenated ministry journey begins here.

For more information on the transformative Ministerial Coaching Initiative, generously supported by the Lilly Foundation and facilitated through Point Loma Nazarene's Center for Pastoral Leadership, CLICK HERE.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

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Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever found yourself so immersed in the demands of ministry leadership that your own spirit starts to fray at the edges?

In this episode, we're joined by the insightful Paul Kuzma, a pastoral counselor who has weathered the storm of burnout himself. Together, our conversation weaves personal narratives and practical wisdom into a tapestry of guidance for any ministry leader seeking harmony between their calling and personal well-being.

Join us as we explore the fullness of life beyond the pulpit – from cultivating friendships outside the congregation to embracing passions that rejuvenate the soul. We'll tackle the high-stakes stresses of pastoral duties and discuss how to strike that essential balance, setting the stage for a ministry that's not only vibrant but sustainable in the long run.

Whether you're a seasoned minister or just beginning to feel the weight of your calling, there's a message here for you. We're peeling back the layers on pastoral self-care and uncovering how taking a step back can propel you forward, ensuring that your ministry is a reflection of a well-tended heart and spirit.

Join us for an episode that promises to fortify your ministry and, perhaps, help you steer clear of becoming a Crabby Pastor.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

Have you ever found yourself so immersed in the demands of ministry leadership that your own spirit starts to fray at the edges? In this episode, we're joined by the insightful Paul Kuzma, a pastoral counselor who has weathered the storm of burnout himself. Together, our conversation weaves personal narratives and practical wisdom into a tapestry of guidance for any ministry leader seeking harmony between their calling and personal well-being.

Join us as we explore the fullness of life beyond the pulpit – from cultivating friendships outside the congregation to embracing passions that rejuvenate the soul. We'll tackle the high-stakes stresses of pastoral duties and discuss how to strike that essential balance, setting the stage for a ministry that's not only vibrant but sustainable in the long run.

Whether you're a seasoned minister or just beginning to feel the weight of your calling, there's a message here for you. We're peeling back the layers on pastoral self-care and uncovering how taking a step back can propel you forward, ensuring that your ministry is a reflection of a well-tended heart and spirit.

Join us for an episode that promises to fortify your ministry and, perhaps, help you steer clear of becoming a Crabby Pastor.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader, fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill?Margie: 0:54

This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy. Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that, and often I'll need you to email me at CrabbyPastor at gmail.Margie: 1:47

That's CrabbyPastor at gmail cot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop. This is Margie Bryce, again with the Crabby Pastor podcast, because we are wanting fewer and fewer pastors to be Crabby. Even if you're just Crabby on the inside, that counts too. I'd like to think it doesn't, but we're all trained to do the non-anxious presence thing right. So I'm committed to that, and I have with me Paul Kuzma, who is going to share with us a back to burn back from burnout, not back to burnout. That's a whole different episode, isn't it?Paul Kuzma: 2:37

It is, there is.Margie: 2:39

Yeah, so another back from burnout episode. So, paul, I'm going to ask you to introduce yourself. Tell us what you're doing right now in ministry.Paul Kuzma: 2:50

Yeah, margie, thanks so much for the privilege and the honor of getting to connect with you and your listeners and to get to share some of my story in hopes that it will help a few.Paul Kuzma: 3:02

So I am a in terms of what I do. I am a four square pastor At my core. I started pastoring way back in 1985, graduated from Bible college in 1987 and ended up in full time vocational ministry out of four square church in CME Valley, california, where I spent eight years on staff as a youth pastor, four years as associate pastor before I became senior pastor of that same church, and in those first 12 years that I was on staff I had worked with the three previous senior pastors. All those transitions were painful. Before I ended up, we'll get in a little bit more of my burnout story three and a half years after I became senior pastor. What I do today is I serve full time as director and certified pastoral counselor at Center for Spiritual Renewal East, which is a retreat center for four square pastors and their families that's located in, of all places, christiansburg, virginia.Margie: 4:20

I saw that and I thought well, isn't that interesting. Was that? Were you there before it was named the town?Paul Kuzma: 4:27

No, no, christiansburg was established way back in the if I remember right sometime in the late 1700s. And we're tucked into the southwest corner of the Commonwealth of Virginia and we're better known for our next door neighbor, blacksburg, which is the home of the Virginia tech Hokies Go Hokies.Margie: 4:54

Hokies With a K.Paul Kuzma: 4:56

That's correct. H-o-k-i-e -S. So what's a Hokie? You know that's so fun that you've just asked me that question. Margie, I'm going to give you the official answer.Margie: 5:09

Okay.Paul Kuzma: 5:10

We don't know. Oh that is the. You can Google it.Margie: 5:16

What is a Hokie official?Paul Kuzma: 5:17

answer what's a? What's a Virginia tech Hokie.Margie: 5:20

I mean, I keep asking my husband what's a Whitney lion as opposed to a regular lion? There you go, there you go. You're like what.Paul Kuzma: 5:27

Our mascot for the Virginia tech Hokies is a turkey, and the reason for that is because before the name Hokies they were called the, the Virginia tech goblers.Margie: 5:42

So the question is is that an improvement to Hokie? I don't know.Paul Kuzma: 5:49

So so we have a an 80 plus acre campus that for the the four square church denomination owns, that is called the whole of it is called cross point conference center. But on the campus is a set of seven apartments in one build, one of four apartment buildings that is dedicated as what I love to call four squares. Gift of a free time share to our pastors and their families.Paul Kuzma: 6:17

Wow, I love it we offer up to a week a year of free lodging very nicely, kind of plushed out apartment that a pastor or their family members get fully to themselves. They can come for anything from a study break to some Sabbath rest to to crisis management dealing with some kind of crisis. If they'd like counseling, I'm the primary counselor on the campus, serving in that whole full time.Paul Kuzma: 6:47

Okay, a little part time slice of my life, margie. I work with a guy by the name of Pete Scazzero. Pete and his wife are the founders of a ministry that today is called emotionally healthy discipleship. Yeah, and it really crosses well with my work with our four sport pastors. Emotionally healthy discipleship is based on the premise that you can't separate your emotional health from your spiritual maturity. Therefore, you can't be spiritually mature while remaining emotionally immature. And that's that's got a lot of tie into my own story.Margie: 7:27

Yeah, sure, and it's scary. It's scary to boot If you think about, you know, society as a whole, or you know that's very scary. But I'm very excited to have you on, you know, as a member of the four square denomination, because I, as as this podcast, I want to serve broadly, you know, pastors of any denomination that is willing to. You know it does take a bit of humility to to say I've got issues. I need to do better with self care. I need to all of that. So I'm I'm excited about that. So I want you to talk to us, though, about your ministry context prior to burnout. So you were a senior pastor three and a half years in.Paul Kuzma: 8:17

Yep, at the same church that I had already served. By the time I hit burnout it was a little over 15 years of ministry at the same church and, like I mentioned a couple minutes ago, served my first 12 years with the three previous senior pastors. All of those transitions were painful for the pastor's family and the church and when I became a senior pastor started to do some history on the church, I discovered it was actually started in 1949. I was the ninth pastor in the church's history and the church had never known a positive pastoral transition that I could, that I could trace.Paul Kuzma: 8:58

And so, three and a half years in, I found myself in a season of having given myself to a flurry of ministry activity, as most pastors do, not knowing much about limits or boundaries at the time, and found myself in a season barely able to get out of bed many mornings, crying at the drop of a hat, getting angry about things that I didn't generally or historically get angry about, and wondering what in the world I was doing and the job I was in. Had a uh, pastoral counselor in my life at the time. I was not in any kind of official therapy or counseling, it was more of a mentor kind of relationship who sat me down and said, paul, I think you're in burnout and I didn't get here overnight Not getting out overnight and you need to look at get some help. Wow, that that was kind of the ministry context. It was, uh, season of a lot of learning to grow out of that and grow back from burnout.Margie: 10:13

Hmm, how long did it take your process? So you were told by a mentor I think you're in burnout. How long, then, did it take you to get back to some semblance of you know, normal? I'm doing air quotes over normal. I think that's a setting on the dryer, but you know.Paul Kuzma: 10:34

Well, it's been well to 2020. It was 23 years ago right now, that I was in that season. It was January, february that I uh 2001, that I hit that season. And Margie, that's a hard question to answer I I can't really put a number of how long it took me. And in some ways I still, when I share my story, say I'm in recovery.Paul Kuzma: 11:04

Hmm, because the reality is that, at least for me and a lot of pastors that I work with these days who are navigating burnout, what we realize is, once you get out of it, there's no guarantee that you don't experience some level of it again. Hmm. So in some ways I say that I'm I'm still in recovery and some of the main issues that I discovered in counseling and therapy in my initial recovery season, I'm still navigating and managing those issues that led me to burnout today that I ended up discovering. But if I can go back to my initial recovery, I would say I was in a what I called a modified sabbatical for about six months, and what I mean by modified sabbatical is I wasn't away from the church the entirety of that time but I was given freedom by my church council and my district supervisor to do what I needed to do to find my way back to health during that season of time, and I think even better than the term normal is the term noon dorm.Paul Kuzma: 12:21

Hmm, it took me about. It took me about six months to get back to a place where I said to my congregation I'm back, but it's going to look different, okay, and then it probably took me another four or five years to figure out what that different really was. There's a lot of fine tuning.Margie: 12:40

Sure, and how did it have to look different this time?Paul Kuzma: 12:43

Yeah, yeah, so probably best by filling in that what ended up happening was initially, when my mentor sat down with me and I started talking about my symptoms of very low energy, strong fatigue, hardly get out of bed in the morning, crying at the drop of a hat, the anger that I was experiencing. He was the one who said I think you need some time off. It had been a long time Probably the most time I had taken off all at once was maybe a week, in an hour or two, which didn't happen very often and so we ended up arranging for me to take a break for one month. I felt like at the time that's all the church could handle. I had a pretty skewed view of my importance at the time I could put it that way and so I took a month off.Paul Kuzma: 13:47

I came back at the end of that month. It was an incredible time of reconnecting with Jesus as a person. But I came back and encountered a couple situations where that anger arose. It became quickly apparent to me that one month wasn't enough. But even when I took my one month break, I refused to call it a sabbatical, because at our church, sabbaticals were things that pastors didn't come back from. Really they were what I call reactive sabbaticals. I think there's two kinds of sabbaticals I've learned over the years.Paul Kuzma: 14:28

Reactive and proactive. And around our denomination and around the church I was at, sabbaticals were things that pastors they were disciplinary in nature. We had to put a pastor on sabbatical versus being proactive and planning to engage seasons of sabbatical every handful of years. We just haven't had that kind of history in our denomination. So when it became apparent that the one month wasn't enough, I ended up working out an idea that I called a modified sabbatical, which again meant that I wasn't preaching every week like I previously was, and I was free to make decisions about my schedule on a day-to-day basis. It allowed me to follow my body, see my doctor, so I started getting physical in place.Paul Kuzma: 15:27

At the time I had high blood pressure First time in my life I faced that. I started being treated for that and then also began to see a therapist for the first time. A therapist's office is a place that I'd never gone to for myself, even though I told hundreds of people over the years to go there. So it was in therapy that I started to be introduced to the concept of family systems theory and my family of origin. My first therapist knew a genogram with me discovered I had played the role of savior in my family of origin oh, interesting, and ended up discovering how common it is that we take the role that we played in our family of origin into the rest of our life, in our adult years, and how I had become in my mind, without ever, almost subconsciously, wanting to be or thinking I was called to be the savior for this congregation who had painful pastoral history.Margie: 16:37

Yeah, yeah, and you know we're fixers, we're fixers, but except when it comes to ourselves and we're in a situation and or we're broken or whatever. I mean, I just did this. I just did this again, you know, and I thought you know, because I can easily say wow, you know, passers don't this and they don't go for help and they don't, you know, reach out for coaching. They don't reach out for what they need. They're a tough audience to minister to. And then I turned around and realized I'm talking about myself again, because I just did it again.Paul Kuzma: 17:14

Yes, so that speaks to a critical lesson that I learned with my initial therapist, margie. I ended up initially spending two weeks at a retreat center up in Northern California with a therapist who was a former pastor himself, and during the course, at the end of those two weeks, on the last day I was there, my friend Russ said to me Paul, I think you're going to make it long term in ministry, but it's not going to be with a without a lot more pain and a lot more loss of relationship. And I said, russ, thanks so much, my brother, for those just deeply encouraging parting words. And if I could do what you need to do with this in the reporting, margie, I looked at him and I said what all does that mean? Because I am shaking in my boots right now.Paul Kuzma: 18:12

He said well, he said, paul, we've talked about a lot of things over these two weeks in your life, in your approach to ministry, that need to change for you to last long term. He said more pain means that you're gonna go home and be tempted to keep doing life and ministry the way you've always done and it will be painful for you To call yourself out and do it differently. He said more loss of relationship means that I'm I'm sending you home to a congregation that's only known pastor Paul one way for 15 years, and when you start to do life in ministry differently, you're gonna have some people who aren't gonna like it and that's probably gonna lead to some loss of relationship. Well, this guy could not have been.Paul Kuzma: 19:07

This former pastor now serving as a therapist could not have been more prophetic, margie one of those Become kind of a mantra of my story that I, that I joke with a little bit I I'll often say over the next four or five years we learned how to grow a church from about four or five hundred people to about 200.Margie: 19:34

And I'm not being facetious about the growth.Paul Kuzma: 19:36

I think I do get a growth For the congregation. We we did not have one church split. We didn't have a Sunday where like half of people didn't show up, right, but what we did have was Kind of decision by decision or conflict by conflict. We'd have people that would make decisions that Paul's not doing life in ministry the same way he's always done it. One of the things that I began to address In therapy was how much of a conflict avoid and how I didn't see conflict as healthy or normal or natural. I Saw it as you know. Conflict means that there's a problem.Margie: 20:23

Mm-hmm.Paul Kuzma: 20:24

So when I began to start to take a healthy view of conflict and learn conflict management, that was different for people that I would actually began to address conflict as it arose. I Not saying I did it all perfectly right. There were people that I heard that I've had to return to and and reconcile with to the best of my ability. But it just began to do it differently and it I it produced results that you know weren't always Up and to the right I could put it that way.Margie: 21:03

So what? What else did you do differently?Paul Kuzma: 21:07

Yeah. So, russ, my first couple days there, asked me if I'd ever read a book by John Townsend and Henry Cloud called boundaries.Paul Kuzma: 21:18

Hmm, and I said man Ross, that's such a great book. I Recommend that book all the time. And he said, okay, but have you ever read the book? I said, man, that's got some great chapters in it. I I've passed chapters in that book to people. He said, paul, if you ever read the book boundaries? I Said nah, not really no.Paul Kuzma: 21:44

And that became that book became foundational for me, margie, to begin to realize that Boundaries are an important part of health and self-care. So, you know, I began to put boundaries in place around you know some of my hours. I began to learn about Sabbath and its importance and began to institute and implement Sabbath practice. I began to recognize that a couple of the personal issues that it led me into Into burnout had to do with work addiction and Perfectionism and began to address those areas in my life, a very practical thing that I started to do.Paul Kuzma: 22:33

Interestingly that I've now gone into counseling. At the time I was doing a lot of counseling and began to realize how much of a time and energy drain it was. And then at that season I was not the best counselor for people. So I began to refer people to counseling Instead of doing the counseling myself, and that was one boundary that I was Working with in a fresh and new way in my life. So so those were. Those were some of the things that I began to change about how I was approaching life and ministry.Margie: 23:12

Yeah, and I'm curious too about you said work, workaholic and and I think many pastors are Encumbered with a productivity mindset you know I can do that. At the end of the day, you know, I look at was I productive today? Was this a productive day? And I, you know, maybe there were good things that were sown into the day. Yes that will lead to other things in the future. But the North American Mindset towards productivity is a little and it's impacted ministry in the church.Paul Kuzma: 23:51

Yes, that's absolutely right. The the, the Western mindset of productivity. I would add to that list of factors driving work addiction and workaholism for pastors.Paul Kuzma: 24:03

I would add to that the, the history of the church growth movement in America and the Maybe the filter of productivity that's been placed over that, that everything that every healthy church Grows and that should be in numbers as well, right I? I think I actually have learned for myself. I've become more convinced that there's a place for the small church in America. I Think another layer or factor on this issue of work addiction is how in the world Can you work, can I work too much for God? I Mean if, if I just put in the work, he'll pick up the rest of the pieces right, he'll take care of everything else.Paul Kuzma: 24:53

When we look at some of our historical figures around American Christianity and some of the popular evangelists, pastors, ministers, you know they adopted the mindset I'd rather Burn out than rust out. Some of those kinds of things were, were models for me. So, so I think those were, those were all factors in the work addiction. Peace as well, my own family of origin, watching my, my mom and dad Work and work and work and work with the nose to the grindstone, those, those were factors for my own work addiction as well so you did.Margie: 25:43

You did a lot of introspection, a lot of Work on your self-awareness. Yes, you know why you do the things, you do in the way that you do them, and Then decided to pull back on what wasn't healthy.Paul Kuzma: 25:59

Yes, I started realizing that the the the best gift that I can give to anybody else in my life is a healthy me. Absolutely, absolutely, because you, there's people all around you, your family, your friends, the people that you're called to lead in ministry and those relationships matter right, right, the analogy of anytime anybody gets on an airplane and you get that safety briefing and if the oxygen mask Drops down, please make sure you put your own oxygen mask on before you put it on, before you help somebody else.Margie: 26:44

Right.Paul Kuzma: 26:45

I think that's so important for pastors, ministers, to pick up that analogy, that we can't help Others if we can't Help ourselves. Right, we can't kick the well for others if we're not care for ourselves.Margie: 27:04

Right, right. Well, so you talked a lot about you're still in recovery, which means that also that you know your You're Acquiring that level of self-awareness is something that you chronically Attend to yes, it is.Paul Kuzma: 27:27

So one of the things that means for me very practically is that I still see my therapist to this day, and I learned about 12, 13 years ago when I went into school for counseling. I wasn't aware that the counselors, as you're going through school, you're required to be in therapy yourself and I thought how, how profound is that? That I'm, I'm, it's another level of self-care. I the the propensity of pastors that I work with who have an aversion to Therapy and counseling. It's pretty strong. I've come to the place now, margie, where I tell pastors all the time I've become convinced that every pastor needs a therapist. As a matter of fact, just that, you answered the call, the ministry tells me you need a therapist.Margie: 28:30

Oh, okay. Well, now I'm gonna have to ask you to say more about that.Paul Kuzma: 28:34

Yeah, so Ministry is so complex. I think it was If I have it right, I think I I've heard that it was Peter Drucker who Quoted some kind of research that had been done, maybe a couple decades ago, that they discovered the Pastoral ministry, the pastors Pastoral ministry is one of the most hazardous and stressful Occupations like it was in the top three and I Think every pastor needs you know some writing partners. I don't think we can do this alone. We're not meant to do this alone. I think even scripturally, biblically, we're not meant to do this alone. We're meant to do this with other people. But yet there's kind of a mystique out there that the pastor's got to be perfect. The pastor's got to have it together. The family of the pastor has to have it together.Paul Kuzma: 29:38

The reality is that we're all humans. One of my distant early mentors in the work that I do now is was a guy by the name of Archibald Hart, and he served out the bulk of his career as the director of the school of psychology of Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, did a lot of research Around pastors and a lot of counseling in this area, and he used to say I heard him say to Multiple groups of pastors over the years.Paul Kuzma: 30:11

Margie, pastors don't get into trouble because they forget that they're pastors. Pastors get into trouble because they forgot that they're people hmm, we forget that we're human.Margie: 30:24

sometimes I feel like you forget that you're finite, that's right and that there are limits. That's what I mean by that. We have limits to what we can do. God is infinite, but we are definitely finite and we need to then intentionally allocate our time, energy, attention, resources accordingly and not burn the candle at both ends, as they say, for burnout for sure.Margie: 30:58

So so you did, you did your counseling, you did your sabbatical, which I think it started out a revised sabbatical, but then I'm into more of a sabbatical after that, and what are some other things that you did to address your burnout, or did we pretty much get them?Paul Kuzma: 31:18

Yeah, I would. I would say I began to, I began to look at my year every year in the In the scope of the rhythms.Paul Kuzma: 31:30

What would the rhythm of my year look like? And I began to build in a rhythm of rest and retreat. So I started to take one or two three to five day study breaks each year where I would get out of town somewhere. I called it a study break, for lack of a better term. What it was was an ability to get out of town where the pressure was. I believe in that old Western term of getting out of dodge, the thing about getting out of our everyday, getting out of the demands of home and giving yourself some freedom to follow your body in terms of rest for those days to work when you feel you have the energy for work. So there was study that took place within that break. I often plan out my next four to six months of sermon themes. Take a look at what the vacation calendar looks like for our family over the next several months. I started to take vacation rather than minimize vacation.Margie: 32:40

Rather than getting the medal for not taking vacation. That's absolutely right.Paul Kuzma: 32:44

Instead of I developed a preaching team format of ministry around our church, which was another area of contention at times for some people. For those first few years I also again I mentioned a little earlier I started to implement Sabbath, a weekly Sabbath, to take a look at what it looked like to unplug for those 24 hours to stop. And then another practical point I began when I picked up Scazzero's, his original book, the Emotionally Healthy Church in 2003. I ended up just closely following that material.Paul Kuzma: 33:27

It was early enough in what was happening around the Scazzero' s at that time that I was able to get to know him a little bit personally, started to ask him how he was applying this concept of emotionally healthy, discipling people and their emotional health to ministry life and began to apply a lot of those principles Over those years as his notoriety grew a little bit more. He asked if I would just take some phone calls and emails from pastors that are wondering the same things that I was wondering and that I was actually applying. And so today I serve as director of a small group of volunteers pastors who have applied and integrated what we call the Emotionally Healthy Discipleship course into our church's discipleship pathways, and we talk with pastors around the US and Canada about doing that same thing, so that has helped me as well. It's another practical way that I've just continued to engage that in my own personal life the concept of seeing my emotional health as a point of discipleship.Paul Kuzma: 34:43

Sure sure, and it's separated from my followership of Jesus.Margie: 34:49

Right, right and you get to see Jesus do redemption.Margie: 34:53

That's right Of a challenging situation. Yes, so here we are, a bit after COVID, I mean to the point where I think the throngs at Christmas, you know, during this recent Christmas season, have returned or close to returned, even though numbers still are not where they were before. But you know, and that's where my concern is, you know how hard are pastors working to thinking that what they do is going to get everybody to come back, whether that's an additional burden that pastors are carrying right now. But I would like to see what you would say are the top three things that you might say to ministry leaders today maybe, who are wondering if they're dealing with burnout or just in terms of their work-life balance maybe. So what are your top three pieces of advice that you would offer to ministers?Paul Kuzma: 35:59

Yeah, that's a great question and I would say, margie, that first and foremost would be to really adopt a mindset that you, that who you are, is more important than what you do. But what you do matters. It matters for eternity, but who you are matters more. The best gift again that you can bring to your congregation, as you're leading and pastoring and shepherding people, is a healthy you. So whatever you can do to invest in who you are and let what you do flow from that well, your own relationship with Jesus, your relationship with your family, friends and a relationship with your congregation.Paul Kuzma: 36:59

And then another mantra that I picked up in my relationship with Pete Schazzaro would essentially say that the state you are in is the state that you give to others. So if you're an anxious person, that will make you an anxious pastor, and it's important to realize again that who you are will inform what you do. So invest in you. Number one, and I think you know. I come back to the mantra I mentioned earlier. I think every pastor needs a therapist. If it's a therapist, a counselor, life coach, you know different seasons of your life and leadership might demand different relationships. Take the more spiritual director.Margie: 37:53

Don't do the journey alone is what I like to say. You need to have other people with you and I know. At one point I had a spiritual director and a coach. I was leading a merger and I was thinking, man.Margie: 38:07

I could mess this up. And so I got you know the people to journey with me. I mean, this is, out of proverbs, the counsel of many as wise, and so I thought, well, we're loading up. But it is important not to journey alone, because you get stuck inside your own head and sometimes that's not a great place to be at all.Paul Kuzma: 38:35

The mantra used for that is your head is a dangerous place, don't ever go there alone. Yeah, the second thing I would say is that it's so important to be honest with yourself about the, about stress and its impact, and how stressful ministry can be and is, and then figure out what works for you to navigate and manage that stress and cope with that stress in healthy ways. I mentioned Arch Hart a little bit ago. He's written several books. What I consider is Cornerstone's work of Arch's life is in a book called the Hidden Link Between a Dreadel in Stress. While he spent the final bulk of his career as a clinical psychologist and dean of the School of Psychology out there Fuller, he started his career as a scientist and then he ended up mixing those two disciplines and did some research about the impact of adrenaline to our stress management.Margie: 39:41

So that's the Hidden Link Between Adrenaline and Stress.Paul Kuzma: 39:47

It's an older book, it's about 40, maybe a little over 40 years old, but it's as relevant today as it's ever been, and he wrote it for pastors. So it's a great way to get acquainted with this concept of adrenaline, this chemical that got created of us with and has great purpose of use, but is actually a chemical that we can become addicted to. Arch proposes that we can actually become so addicted to our adrenaline that we're pulling on it at will. We're calling it crisis management or we're calling it I do my best work in the last minute. Now, what that really means is that you like the adrenaline.Paul Kuzma: 40:35

Arch was one of the earliest folks that I heard talking to pastors about the concept of self-care. He would often say Margie. He would say, pastor, please don't confuse your adrenaline with the anointing on Sunday morning. That's funny. So the impact of stress on your physical body. I would say that that would be the second piece of advice that I would give to pastors that are recognizing burnout and its impact, and then I would say you know the number three thing I think would be found in a couple of questions. One is what are you doing for fun in your life? I know I tend to take myself way too seriously.Paul Kuzma: 41:22

So I have to really lean into having some fun in my life to supplement stress and handle, cope with stress in more healthy ways. But then I would also ask the question for pastors. I ask them regularly who are your friends outside of ministry, who are not projects?Margie: 41:46

That's a good question.Paul Kuzma: 41:47

Who is your friend outside of your church, outside of your ministry? That's not the guy on the treadmill next to you that you carry a gym membership to lead people to Jesus. Who is the friend in your life? That's not somebody you're meeting at the coffee house. You know to disciple them on a weekly basis. Who are your friends outside of ministry? I'll tell you. It's become more and more important over time, especially given that one of the most significant pieces of research coming to the surface over the last few years is how lonely and isolated ministry can be. Absolutely so. When I'm asking pastors that question, margie, I'm regularly having pastors saying I have no one, I do not have friends. The people that are in my life are there because I'm a pastor.Margie: 42:46

And how well do pastors cope with attempting to find friends who are not projects, who are not part of their church?Paul Kuzma: 42:58

Yeah, it has to come back to the idea of what you do matters, but who you are matters more. So I find that the many, many pastors, before they can even navigate into the practicality of where do I find those friends? We have to wade through a little bit of a marsh, maybe for some pastors, a swamp of. I am what I do, yeah, Period, and I find my identity. If I'm not pastoring, I don't know who. I am One of my. I've had three different therapists over the course of the last couple of decades, plus One of my early therapists. I'll never forget how, in one session he, he it was. It felt like a slap in the face, Margie, when he said to me Paul, I can always tell the health of your soul when you talk about doing something other than string. I felt like a slap in the face because when he said that, I realized, oh my goodness, I am talking about doing something other than God's call oh my.Paul Kuzma: 44:17

Is it okay to talk about that? And my therapist just told me it's okay to talk about that. It's actually healthy to talk about. If you weren't, if you weren't in pastoral medicine, what would you do?Margie: 44:28

Right. Sell insurance no Right.Paul Kuzma: 44:32

But so I I think that's something that carries us through waiting, through the marsh or the swamp of who am I apart from what I do? And that's just such an important question to answer. So before we, a lot of pastors, before they can ever figure out, how do I find those friends? We have to go through the journey, and it is a journey, a process, a journey of transformation. To get to the place of recognizing who I am is more important than what I do.Margie: 45:07

That's that is. That is huge, and you know I'm going to stop us on that note. This is a good place to stop it. You've just really given us a lot of food for thought here as we've talked, and I have a feeling at some point I'll be tapping you on the shoulder again to join us some more Awesome. So I want to really, really thank you for being willing to share your story and and the things that you learned along the way, in the hopes of other people grasping onto some of these concepts and really thinking them through. So thank you very much.Paul Kuzma: 45:48

Absolutely so welcome. Thank you for connecting and having me on.Margie: 45:53

You're welcome. Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com, that's B-R-Y-C-E margiebryce dot com, but it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it, and that sets kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 47:34

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the Buy Me a Cup of Coffee thing in the show notes.Margie: 48:17

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

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While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?

Rev. Tanner Griffin courageously shares his battles with burnout and the personal and professional toll it took on his life. Reverend Griffin provides an unfiltered look at the inefficacies within church organizational health and the immense pressures that pushed him to step away from full-time ministry, despite his best efforts at time management and boundary-setting.

Throughout our conversation, we underscore the critical importance of self-care and Sabbath-keeping in ministry. Despite cultural pressures and busy schedules, the biblical mandate for rest remains essential. Rev. Griffin's insights, along with our discussion on organizational dysfunction and the pressures of being a "fixer," provide a comprehensive examination of the complexities pastors face and the journey toward rediscovering a true sense of purpose and calling. Tune in for an episode that promises to offer valuable lessons in recognizing burnout and prioritizing spiritual rejuvenation.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?

Rev. Tanner Griffin courageously shares his battles with burnout and the personal and professional toll it took on his life. Reverend Griffin provides an unfiltered look at the inefficacies within church organizational health and the immense pressures that pushed him to step away from full-time ministry, despite his best efforts at time management and boundary-setting.Throughout our conversation, we underscore the critical importance of self-care and Sabbath-keeping in ministry. Despite cultural pressures and busy schedules, the biblical mandate for rest remains essential. Rev. Griffin's insights, along with our discussion on organizational dysfunction and the pressures of being a "fixer," provide a comprehensive examination of the complexities pastors face and the journey toward rediscovering a true sense of purpose and calling. Tune in for an episode that promises to offer valuable lessons in recognizing burnout and prioritizing spiritual rejuvenation.Support the Show.This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie🦀 🦀 🦀Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. Hey there, this is Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor Podcast, and I know well I can tell from the stats anyway that one area of interest is when pastors are courageous and come on here and tell their stories of burnout, of challenge and how they were moved beyond that and just all the wisdom that they learn, because I was just saying in our pre-chat interview with this pastor that we're about to chat with that you learn more from failure than you do from success and personally I absolutely detest that, but that is so, so true across the board. So I'm here today with Reverend Tanner Griffin and I am going to let you, tanner, introduce yourself.Tanner: 1:31

Okay, well, thanks for having me with this conversation. Like I said, I'm Tanner Griffin. I'm an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene.Tanner: 1:39

For the past seven years I've been a senior pastor at a couple different churches rural Indiana and then, most recently, you know, kind of central Michigan more on the western side, I guess but as of two, three months ago, I made the decision to step out of full-time pastoral ministry and move back home, and a big part of that and this is where it connects with where your podcast has been has been coming to the realization that I was in burnout, that it was affecting my family and, despite my best efforts over the last several years of learning better time management skills and all the different things setting boundaries I listened to a million podcasts, read a million books, tried to do everything I could to keep myself healthy I ended up in that burnout category and so kind of reinventing life here, but also, for the first time in a while, feeling excited about what's ahead and really living into that sense of calling.Tanner: 2:48

So it's kind of ironic when you tell people that you're stepping away from full-time ministry, they often ask you know, is it a faith crisis? Or, you know, are you upset about, you know, is it doubt or whatever and honestly it was an attempt to be faithful, right. I feel like God was moving us in a different direction and gave me a more clarified vision of how I should be spending my time and be steward of this call.Margie: 3:16

I like that. I like that it's tied to call and sometimes God does move us in unexpected ways and to unexpected places, and then you still can come out of that with a strong sense of there was purpose in the mess that I just walked through and that's kind of a neat thing to behold after the fact. It may not be so great while you're trudging through it. Trudging through the mess, it's not so fun there. But yeah, I liked a lot of what you had to say then about call. So why don't you start then at the very beginning? Because what happens is you can say burnout and nobody sees burnout coming in themselves, or when they're in the midst of it. Maybe if you have a very brave administrative assistant or your family say hey, this is your, this is not good, but otherwise you don't see it coming. So why don't you take us back to start where you'd like us to start?Tanner: 4:28

Okay, I mean to focus on kind of the sneaking up on burnout thing, because I agree with you, you don't see it coming and, like I said before we started recording, I've really struggled to apply that term to myself for a while because I felt like it had different implications. Apply that term to myself for a while because I felt like it had different implications. But I felt called to pastoral ministry and it was kind of a little bit later in life. I had family when we first entered into full-time ministry my wife and three kids. The oldest was 11, 10, and the youngest was a year old and I had a three-year-old in the middle there.Tanner: 5:07

And so you know, we moved the family and you know, at this church and as is typical of a lot of medium small churches now, there's just a lot of you know, the catchy phrase is deferred maintenance and that applies to physical structures, but there's a lot of I would call deferred maintenance in community organizational life as well. So the organizational health, it, just it just there were some things that needed attention and, as we are kind of have a tendency to do, um, those are the things we wanted to avoid, you know, pretend like didn't exist and actually, you know, I had a member of the church board upset with me at one point because he said why would you, why would you say we had this problem? And I was like because we do? You know, it was just one of those, one of those realities where you know, naming it which seemed like an obvious step for me was the was the major triggering thing for folks, and so well, sure, sure.Margie: 6:02

And then you're, you're what? What I think has happened and you captured this when we talked before the podcast that what has happened is other people have left things unattended and just passed it along to the next person, to the next pastor, to the next pastor, to the next pastor. So you know, I mean you're talking or thinking about a compounding snowball, almost.Tanner: 6:28

Yeah, and I think I think I always want to avoid the sense of like the pastor that was there before me didn't do the right thing or something. I don't want to give that impression. I just think, like when, when we go in, especially if it's somebody that you know felt a call to ministry early on and went to school, went to seminary, and then you walk into a church and you're ready to preach and teach and pray and you know this is what you've been trained for, study scriptures and all those types of things, and then you're suddenly met with you know budgets and buildings and you know all those types of things. I think pastors are naturally gravitate towards the pastoral things, and so the things that that I've wrestled the most with weren't in that area, but it was more of the you know organizational. You know I put in my note to you that the you know I kind of got tired of running a religious organization and that's that's the side of things that seems to get neglected or where there's the greatest need, I guess.Margie: 7:30

Sure, sure, because you're talking about organizational stuff and you can come in and sometimes there's organizational dysfunction.Tanner: 7:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Tanner: 7:41

And so you know you set about trying to tackle those things, and you know there's people that I mean, I think people have unrealistic expectations of what a senior pastor can do, especially a solo senior pastor. You know, run the business of the church, do all the spiritual things, visit folks, convince people to come back to the church that have left, and then somehow, on a Sunday, show up and have a you know, a sermon that you know compares to whoever you can see online you know what I mean. Like that's it. They've spent a whole, you know whatever month preparing for that one talk or something, anyways, and so it's just a heavy expectation. And, as that being my first pastoral, full-time pastoral role, I wanted to be good at it, you know, and so I wanted to be successful and I worked really hard, you know, to try and meet all those expectations, which just that's a bad strategy. And so I had to start learning about boundaries and prioritizing my own goals and being okay with some people being upset with me, you know I did like what you wrote here.Margie: 8:58

You wrote because I was kind of this myself with, but with any church that that I was over, I felt like I had the choice of getting people to like me or doing what was right for the church and that's a real big picture, focus, mile high view, so to speak. While I can not address this and just let it continue to perpetuate, or I can address this and it'll be challenging, it'll be a little bit hard, but at the end of the day it's going to position this church and put them in a better place and you know that's a pastoral urging as well.Tanner: 9:40

Yeah, and so the first church I was at, the financial situation was the reality it had. The church finances had been an issue for a while but it had a daycare center that was providing revenue to keep it afloat. But then the community, the local school district, got a grant to do daycare at the school where it was costing parents almost nothing and it just kind of gutted the daycare at the school where it was costing parents almost nothing and it just kind of gutted the daycare at that at that time. And so the month before we closed on our house into this area so we'd been at the church for three months maybe I saw my first full like financial snapshot. And you know the church spent thousands of dollars more than it brought in. And here I am going to buy this house with my, you know, with my family and I'm like I don't think the church can afford us. And that was the battle from from day one. You know there was times where, you know the church, our bank account was 15 bucks.Margie: 10:40

You know there was times where your personal one or the church, the church, the church one.Tanner: 10:46

Yeah, like we we, we were in a in a tight place, and so I spent a lot of time digging into the budget Right, because it just wasn't the budget process, it wasn't something that was strong in this church, and so I spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the financials and, you know, people started posting passive, aggressively on social media. You know it's hard, it's hard to, it's hard to love your people when all you want to do is look at spreadsheets and I was like I know what you're saying, but like if the church closes, like if we run out of it's just so.Tanner: 11:23

It's that type of thing that just wears on you. Like I was determined that fixing the financial realities was step number one, Like that was going to be the biggest barrier, and I took hits along the way because people didn't think that I should be spending that much time on that. So it was just one of those those things where I had to, very early on, say, am I going to do what's best for the church or am I going to set about developing relationships with people so that I do what they want me to do? You know, looking back, I don't think I would have known this at the time, but looking back I saw that the stress and the I would say I was bordering on burnout then.Tanner: 12:07

But then COVID hit and you know, initially that caused stress and anxiety to spike, Cause it's like, what are we doing? But then we went through the season where, you know, everything existed online and things calmed down. We weren't doing 19 things a week, we weren't doing all this. It was just, you know, let's get what we have to do to get a Sunday service, you know, shared out online or whatever. And so I think I actually found rest during that COVID season. Again, I wouldn't have noticed that what isn't said that at the time. But I think looking back, that I was really close to burnout there and COVID kind of gave me a reprieve.Tanner: 12:53

But then in the middle of that, you know, we got called to another church and the church we were at got adopted by a larger church campus and you know, they were able to pay off their debt and the financial situation was a lot, a lot better when we left and I started at this at this other church that finances were strong. They had a strong leadership team. It looked like a lot of structure in place, which is what was lacking at the first church. But again, that was during COVID that we made that transition, so I couldn't see all the things that were behind the scenes because nothing was happening Right, because you said that at some point you ended up leaving that second church sooner than what you planned.Margie: 13:41

But trying to pastor an unhealthy church was doing real damage to my family. I told my wife that if we didn't leave this would kill me and I was not being dramatic. There are many nights I went to bed wondering if I would wake up in the morning.Tanner: 13:58

Yeah, yeah. So I mean there's a lot in those few statements. You know we went to the church in michigan and we we thought we were going to be there. You know, in my head was till the kids graduated from high school. Like we've already moved them a couple times. It was, it seemed like a good community and we really want to put down roots. Like I'm familiar with the statistics that say the longer pastor's at a church, you know there's fruit, that happens. You know that can't happen early on. All of that. We went in there. You know they ask you when you're interviewing at a church how long you're going to stay and I said, you know, I think five years is is like the minimum for me in my mind, and not that I'm planning on using that church as a stepping stone to another place. I think that's what they were concerned about.Tanner: 14:43

But but yeah, like I found myself two of my three kids were wrestling with tremendous amount of anxiety and on medication or seeing counseling. I started seeing a counselor and was on medication. I ended up in the emergency room one night panic attack, I don't know what it was, anxiety, whatever, but like my pulse wouldn't come down. It was like I was running a marathon. It just stayed there and my wife finally had enough and said you're going.Tanner: 15:13

So we went, like that was a huge wake up call, because I thought I just wasn't feeling great. I just thought I wasn't. You know myself, but if I get a little bit of rest, or I solve this problem or I get a vacation or whatever, like I'd be back to normal, but like I just wasn't, wasn't snapping back. And my dad passed away at a pretty young age in his in his sleep. He had a heart attack at the age of 44 while sleeping. And so that, like my statement in my head, like it it it sounds dramatic saying well, gonna go to sleep and I don't know if I'll wake up.Tanner: 15:46

But like I thought that at night there was nights where you know I'm like, if I close my eyes, will I ever open them again? Like it was just I knew I was unhealthy, um, physically, emotionally, mentally. I knew I wasn't the dad that I wanted to be, I definitely wasn't the husband I wanted to be and, uh, honestly, I wasn't doing a very good job pastoring either, right, like it just everything crashed and it was just like well, if I'm doing all of these things, if I put myself in the situation where I'm stressed and tired, in my head it was like well, if I'm accomplishing something, it's worthwhile, you know, like it's just me doing what I have to do to get the job done. But when I started failing at everything, like I sat in front of one of our board meetings and said, guys, I, I'm operating at like 35 right now, like you know, sitting down to write a sermon was incredibly difficult because I was struggling to think I, I just um, I don't know how to explain it, other than there was like a numbness, but with like a buzzing, like my whole, my whole self was buzzing.Tanner: 16:52

Like there was just this overwhelmed energy. That was just I don't know and so so. But even in those moments it was just like, well, I'm just, I'm just tired, or whatever. Like I didn't want to apply that, that burnout, because I think I said it in the, in the pre-show. Like I didn't, or you know, before we started recording, I I didn't apply burnout to myself because, like I'm not one of these workaholics, I'm not a control freak, I'm not a you know somebody that you know, when I think of burnout, I think it's I was trying to do less, you know like I said you had said, well, if I fix this problem, then everything's going to be good.Margie: 17:39

And then something else would come up which sounds like some kind of pastoral version of whack-a-mole that you can't get ahead of.Tanner: 17:47

Yeah, yeah, and that's I mean I think that's how I justified it for as long as I did was just that well, if I get this solved, or maybe not even that, but just the reality of being a senior leader in an organization where, like, if I don't do this and this, it's not arrogance, it's not pride, it's just if I'm, if I don't do this, it's not going to get done. Or if I don't, if I don't intervene, things are going to get worse. You know having to step in between two grown adults arguing at a board meeting, like I had to put myself in the middle of that. Or you know conflicts in the church or people in positions that they probably shouldn't have been in. You know it creates problems.Margie: 18:32

It creates, you know, conflict and hurt and you're saying and you're saying is this what I went into ministry to do?Tanner: 18:40

Well, and, and I mean I, I cared about the people at the church and one of the things that I've learned over the years is like, before pastoring full-time, I was in logistics management, like I, warehousing and transportation and that type of thing, and so my initial instincts to everything is organizational right, and so I thought when I went to full-time pastoral ministry I needed to focus more like individual, relational. But what I discovered through experience and maybe people have other conclusions but I come to the conclusion that, like so much of the hurt and conflict in churches right now isn't because one bad person hurt another person. It's it's lack of clarity and roles and responsibility. It's a lack of understanding of, I mean, the number of times that people said well, who said they could do that, or I was doing that, or they stepped in my territory, or they hurt my feelings because they did something I was supposed to do that dysfunction in organization creates hurt at a pace that individual, you know, just having one mean person couldn't handle. And so that was my mentality is like if I can get the culture healthy, the organization healthy, then these hurts will go away. But as we solve problems, as we move through things I can't remember who said it, but I was listening to a podcast that talked about church leadership, being a pastor, and that your leadership staff and church leaders need to be problem solvers, like they should come to you with solutions to problems, and that what often happens is you end up with a bunch of church problem deliverers.Tanner: 20:18

And that was that was a culture that I found myself in. I had a large team which, on the surface, feels like I should be able to accomplish a lot, but it just meant there was more people that had problems that they needed my input on, and so, and you were the fixer of all things. Yeah, and I mean, and in my most cynical moments I said they just hired me to come and be an employee for them. Right, like, I'm not, I'm not a pastor, I'm just the fixer. And then it was just hard for me when I really started to struggle to find space.Tanner: 20:53

My kids went to the same school as some of the other staff, and so I'd run into people in the parking lot that wanted to talk about church-related issues. You know, I'm in my you know shorts and hooded sweatshirt, not, you know, not even ready to start the day yet. And you know, and because they knew I was going to be there, they would come prepared to talk about something. Or my kids were at the daycare which our church ran, and so I'd go pick up my kids at the end of the day. And a spontaneous meeting happened, because they knew that at a certain point I would come and pick up my kids and it just, it just expounded like that, the feeling that I I there was no place I could go, that I was not responsible for other people's problems. You know what I mean?Margie: 21:38

Yeah, yeah, well, that's a and that's a heavy load. Then At what point then did you say to yourself, okay, there's got to be some other way for me to live into my call, or?Tanner: 21:54

yeah, yeah, I think I mean the real. Like I said, when I ended up in the er there was the wake-up call if I got to do something. But even after that it took me a while. Actually it took my wife to kind of kick me in the butt a little bit to get me to see a counselor and and with some folks. But the question was, what do I do If you feel called to ministry, you pastor a church, right, that's what you do.Tanner: 22:24

And I just really wrestled with the idea that I have to do all these things and go through all these barriers to share my faith with people or to pray with people or to. You know, I, when I worked in warehousing, I had more honest conversations with with people that were on it, just because it was just a faith conversation. It wasn't about church finances or what color the I mean the stereotypical carpet conversation like that was happening at one of my churches, the you know pews or chairs, or you know we put tables in the sanctuary for a sermon series and and people. It's not spiritual to have tables like all of that nonsense. I'm like I'm just trying to teach people about jesus and you pray with people that that need.Tanner: 23:18

So I just found myself really struggling to even do the basic things I was supposed to be doing. And that's when, like, oh, that's it, this is burnout. This is, this is what it is. You know, my, my dog loved it because I was at home on the couch all the time. That that was her favorite thing is when I was home on the. You know I would, I could do some work. You know, so much of stuff is done, you know, remotely now, but it's just the productivity wasn't there, the drive wasn't there. When my phone would ring, I would avoid it. You know, it was just that type of thing where I was like not only am I struggling with the idea of being a pastor, like I'm not past right and so I'm like a pastor should at least want to go to church on sunday, and I didn't like you know. I mean it was just that level of and I felt bad because it was like this congregation deserves a pastor that wants to pastor them, and I wasn't living up to what I felt like my responsibilities were.Tanner: 24:13

And there was a whole, a whole, a whole chain of things, but it was just kind of this idea of like, what if we went back home and that wasn't even necessarily a sense of, of calling, it was more along the lines of my wife's grandma passed away and I wasn't able to be there. You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and because of my church responsibilities I wasn't able to be there. You know, I'd known Darlene for, you know, 20 some years and because of my church responsibilities I wasn't able. I was actually doing a funeral for somebody else that day and there was just that sense of like I'm taking care of other people but I'm missing out on the people that matter most. I'm not able to be there for them. So that's where the draw, to come back home, was I hadn't been around.Tanner: 24:54

You know, my mom was, was had some health issues and it's like my kids don't know grandma that well. I mean, they know her because she comes and visits. But it's just that was where that initial came from. And as soon as, like, my wife and I came to that decision, like, yes, this is our next move. Like it was, the weight came off. I still had responsibilities there, but it was like I'm no longer holding myself responsible for the future of this, this church, and and honestly, I've, you know, learned, learned a lesson along the way it's god's church, it's not my church. There's problems problems before I got there. There'll be problems after I'm there, it seems kind of arrogant to think that I could fix everything.Tanner: 25:37

But but it was once I started the the process of moving back home that I felt this like stirring again and there was a little bit of just this downtime where I didn't want to do anything and I just needed rest. But that didn't last as long as I thought it was going to.Margie: 25:56

How long did it last?Tanner: 25:58

A couple of weeks, and I mean part of that was job transition and I transitioned to a job that I'm really enjoying, so it was fulfilling, but it wasn't a heavy stress load Like I got eased into this position. My onboarding was super low intensity, which I totally appreciate, so I felt like I had a little bit of rest through that. But it wasn't like I said. It wasn't long and the desire to write kicked in and so I've been. I've been, I've got a blog and hardly anybody reads it, but I write because it's good for me. But I've also been writing sermons, and not that I'm preaching them, but I'm still writing. There was just more.Tanner: 26:39

And I've been talking with my wife about doing something like a hybrid dinner small group type thing in our hometown now and some other ministry related things, some other ministry related things and like that, as as I stepped away from the thing that was was dragging me down and got a little bit of space, like clarity of calling kicked in, like I really started to understand you know, the things that I've been frustrated with or struggling with over the past few years.Tanner: 27:06

I feel like God is saying well, let's not try and hit, let's not try and tackle those things right now. Let's, let's focus on what you feel most passionate about and, uh, let's maybe we don't have to have all the details so like this. They said this this dinner church type thing we're thinking about. You know, probably the most fruitful ministry that I've had in both churches that I was at was we we'd started like a young adults small group in our home on Sunday evenings and we'd have food and play games and talk and then just talk about the sermon from the day, and that was like the most effective discipleship that I've participated in or that I've led, but also the greatest sense of community that I've been a part of. And so it's like well, can we replicate that like why do I have to have the building and the pews and the? You know all?Tanner: 27:58

of that like the carpet right and the carpet and all that like I want to focus on on relational ministry and I want to share faith with people that are really interested in, that, are searching for something, and so, like the, the image that came to my mind was that the two disciples walking away from jerusalem after jesus is crucified and they don't know he's resurrected yet.Tanner: 28:24

And they're walking on the road and yeah, and so they're discouraged, they think the plan's gone off the rails, like their faith has let them down and they don't really know what to do next. So they're just going to go home and like that's the image of like my mission field now. Like the church culture has has is prevalent enough in society that people have religious experiences one way or the other, one way or the other. But like in the town we're in now, you know there's been a church split, church closing, a church plant that tried to launch and failed. There's a lot of like experience with faith and religion but a lot of disappointment, like I can see people in that and so like let's get some people together and and share a meal. Jesus showed up to those disciples when they broke bread, so let's break bread and talk about, see where Jesus is in all this and I got so excited about this that it was clarity of calling and purpose.Tanner: 29:27

But like I sat down and just mapped out, I'm a planner by nature and I just mapped out like the whole thing and it's like I said I've been, I've been writing for the sermons for this church that doesn't exist yet. You know, I'm taking a new approach but, like it took me, I had to have permission to to think outside of the typical structure, right Like, like I said, when you feel called to ministry, you think you're going to pastor a church. And it took me a while to come to the point where I was like no, we can do something different. I mean the missional churches house churches, neighborhood missional movements those types of things really helped me grasp that sense of we can do things a little differently.Margie: 30:07

It hasn't always been the way that I've experienced it always been the way that I've experienced it Sure, sure, and this is in part why I feel called to do what I'm doing, with nudging pastors towards self-care and a slower pace so that they can hear the daring call of the Spirit and follow, because I think the church today is in a lot of transitions. Transitions are hard and I think that you can't hear the daring call of the spirit if you're running like a crazy person on the hamster wheel. You just can't, and I think in this transitional time can't, and I think in this transitional time, god is going to ask us to do some new things, and so it may not look like the traditional. I'm called and therefore that means I am a pastor, but you still can be pastoral in whatever place that God plants your feet, and it may just look different and that's kind of exciting.Tanner: 31:19

Yeah, and, and I think what you said right there and why I appreciate you know your podcast and and and just the, the growing conversation about self-care for pastors and I was I was worthless to people because I did, you know, like you know, I mean I remember pastoral care and counseling classes, the first in both undergrad and in my graduate classes. Both times I took that course they talked about the. You know, you're on an airplane and it loses pressure. The masks come down, put your own on first, because you can't help anybody if you've passed out Like I know that in my head, but it just felt like I never prioritizing self-care seems selfish.Tanner: 32:03

And so I appreciate the conversation because it, you know you're bringing attention to it and others bringing attention to it and providing resources and even just talking about it, making it seem like it's a real thing. Is it helped crack through my sense of what I thought about self-care? Right Like, and it wasn't. I thought bad things about self-care. I was just thought I didn't need it, right Like I'm, I'm doing fine, until I wasn't.Margie: 32:31

Right, right. Well, that's and that's. You know why? And I I know I've shared my burnout stuff before on the podcast and stuff and that's why I feel very strongly about this, because they will tell you in class this is what you should be doing and for some reason it just goes by the wayside. Or they think I just have to pray more and read my Bible more and I'll be fine. And I'm not saying either of those things are not helpful or good. I'm just saying we are finite people. It dawned on me one time, a friend of mine. I was like why am I like this? Why am I so upset? Why am I this? And she said I was like why am I like this? Why am I so upset? Why am I this? And she said you know, it's because you're human. And I thought what a light bulb moment. Yeah, I'm human and I'm finite and I'm like in scripture it says I'm like the grass that's going to wither someday and I always want to think that I'm a perennial and I think I'm an annual, though.Margie: 33:34

I mean it's that kind of thing that we have going. I don't know if I want to ascribe pride to it, really, because that seems a little harsh, but I just think we get so busy because in United States culture, busy is the thing. If you're busy, you have to be busy in order to be successful, and what pastor doesn't want to be successful in the spiritual things like making disciples? But then you get there and you realize you're going to fuel yourself through rest.Tanner: 34:19

Yeah.Margie: 34:19

You forget all that because the to-do list is so blasted big.Tanner: 34:25

Yeah, and you brought up pride, but for me, I think initially it was insecurity. You know pride, but I, for for me, I think initially it was it was insecurity, like I, when I would do things for myself or with my family, I felt like I needed to justify it. Oh, because there were things that needed attention, there was people that needed help and you know if I'm out, you know if I'm out golfing or you know doing something else like I almost feel like I have to justify, had to justify that because there was, there was needs that weren't being met while I was doing that, and so I think it became insecurity, like I had to. And which is it's so silly because you know I, I know the stories right, so you know the Hebrews in captivity in in Egypt and you know Moses comes, let my people go, and all that, and they go out into the wilderness and one of the first thing that God tells them they have to do is keep a Sabbath. You know, like this is so critically important. This is going to be foundational to who you are and how you live. Keep a Sabbath Like this is on the same level. As you know, don't murder, don't have other gods Right, live, keep a sabbath. Like this is on the same level as you know, don't murder, don't have other gods right. Like, keep a sabbath. And somehow, when I think you pointed out you know american culture like that's a sin, you're never going to get called out on working too much.Tanner: 35:47

I, I, I started keeping a journal and a planner and I write out my sabbath plan and I, wouldn't you know, started keeping a journal and a planner and I write out my sabbath plan and I wouldn't, you know, sometimes I'd keep it, sometimes I wouldn't. But I think that's one of the things that I noticed most. That first week where I wasn't a full-time pastor, that sunday morning came along and and I was rested and relaxed and I'm like, oh, this is Sabbath. And I'm like how do I hang on to this? A friend of mine is like, well, you've discovered the weekend. I'm like, yeah, there's this thing called the weekend. This is what God wants for all of us, on a weekly basis, to enjoy life. It's meant to be, you know, the, the biblical, the new Testament imagery of the great feast, the great banquet. Like we're invited to this and it's not our party, we're not responsible for the catering or the. You know like he wants us to enjoy it.Margie: 36:50

I forgot how you know what I mean he wants us to enjoy it.Tanner: 36:53

I forgot how. You know what I mean. I felt like I was a worker. That was my job to.Margie: 36:58

Worker be.Tanner: 36:59

Yeah.Margie: 36:59

So if you could give one word of wisdom, say to yourself before you entered pastoral ministry, what do you think you might say?Tanner: 37:13

Look for God, because there's a lot of things that are in the life of a church but it's not necessarily. I don't know. Use the word spiritual lightly, but not necessarily like well, I'll just say spiritual, it's not a spiritual thing. And so look for Jesus, look for that and just lean into it and let that be the priority. And yeah, I think sometimes it's easy to get. It was easy for me to get caught up in all the things. I think the message would be just do this, be faithful to the things god wants us to do. You know, pray, read, rest sabbath, you know it's. Keep it simple, maybe that old data it and let things, let the spirit work out. Everything else, you know, I don't, I don't have any. I mean I have some regrets, but like I don't, if I could go back in time, I time I wouldn't do it many things much different, but I think that would be. The key is trust, that being faithful is enough. And yeah, you can't fix everything. Just be faithful in what you're called to do. I like that.Margie: 38:32

Yeah, I like that.Tanner: 38:33

Yeah.Margie: 38:33

I like that. I like the simplicity of it because it feels like it gets more complicated at some point along the way and that's not quite so fun, because I think a lot of pastors go into and are called into ministry and they have ideas about what they're. Ideas about what they're. I think I could count on one hand the number of intense spiritual conversations I had with congregants and it wasn't because I wasn't available or whatever. It just wasn't happening there like that. And there's aspects of what we end up doing that it gets a little disappointing, especially when it draws us away from where we felt God calling us to be.Tanner: 39:17

Yeah, and I read Eugene Peterson's memoir, the Pastor, and as I was reading through that there were so many moments of just like yes, this exactly. And one of the things he talked about was his experience of finishing seminary and going to his first church and being just utterly shocked at how little the church people cared about the things of God. He just assumed that that's why they were part of the church, that's why they're going to be there, that's the focal point, you know, and it was. It was meetings and potlucks and you know, social events and all. And he's just like, well, what about the things of God? And like that I could relate to that experience. Because he said I didn't go into ministry because I wanted attention.Tanner: 40:05

Like public speaking was not my favorite thing. I didn't want to be up on the platform. I didn't want the spotlight thing. I didn't want to be up on the platform. I didn't want the spotlight. I just I honestly wanted to care about people, the way that I had received love and care and compassion through the church that I grew up in and I thought there was a compelling story of scripture and I thought people needed to know it. And yeah, it was just. I think that's my greatest frustration is is the church has gathered people for a variety of reasons, and sometimes Jesus isn't really a part of it at all.Margie: 40:40

And you almost feel bad saying that or seeing that. Yeah, as I said, it's a challenging era to be a part of. I've said for a while, hey, I think we're all Jeremiah be a part of. I've said for a while, hey, I think we're all Jeremiah. As sad as that, you know, because you looked at Jeremiah and I thought, man, his stats for conversions aren't too good, are they? But yeah, it's a challenging era, but the real big thrill is watching somebody recapture the essence of what God called you to be and to be about. And I really want to say I appreciate so much your honesty and your sincerity to come and share on the Krabby Pastor podcast. One less Krabby Pastor, right.Tanner: 41:31

Yep, yep, and I'm glad too, because I mean, you can feel alone. I think that's what's so great about what you're doing is sharing stories like this. You know you feel isolated, you feel like nobody else is going through this, or yeah, so I think it's great.Margie: 41:48

Well, I appreciate that and blessings on you and your ministry, whichever way it goes, with the dinner church and the work that you do at Olivet Nazarene. And thank you so much for coming on and sharing. I appreciate that.Tanner: 42:02

Yeah, it's been a good conversation, thanks.Margie: 42:06

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebricecom that's B-R-Y-C-E MargieBricecom R Y C E Margie Brycecom, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download and kind of self assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through, but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.Margie: 43:44

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.Margie: 43:56

I make stained glass as part of my self-care, and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes.Margie: 44:28

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

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While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?

This episode, Rev. Eden Avalos shares a story of emotional fatigue. His candid recount of seeking therapy and restructuring his life offers a beacon of hope and practical advice for ministry leaders navigating similar challenges.

Eden's journey didn't end there; it took him through a tumultuous interim period and even a factory job, all while grappling with feelings of being undervalued and emotionally drained. His time in manual labor, fraught with physical discomfort, became a space for deep introspection and mental fortitude. This episode reveals the profound insights Eden gained on the necessity of a stable, fulfilling career and how personal space contributes to mental health and ministry sustainability.

Let this discussion inspire you to cultivate a balanced, resilient approach to your calling, ensuring you can thrive and go the distance with God's plans.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right? This episode, Rev. Eden Avalos shares a story of emotional fatigue. His candid recount of seeking therapy and restructuring his life offers a beacon of hope and practical advice for ministry leaders navigating similar challenges.Eden's journey didn't end there; it took him through a tumultuous interim period and even a factory job, all while grappling with feelings of being undervalued and emotionally drained. His time in manual labor, fraught with physical discomfort, became a space for deep introspection and mental fortitude. This episode reveals the profound insights Eden gained on the necessity of a stable, fulfilling career and how personal space contributes to mental health and ministry sustainability.Let this discussion inspire you to cultivate a balanced, resilient approach to your calling, ensuring you can thrive and go the distance with God's plans.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce, here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry and today's episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast and I want to welcome you all this is Margie Bryson. I am your host talking about all things self-care for ministry leaders and some leadership issues, because you know the first line of leadership is to be able to lead yourself well, and sometimes you know we have that intention going into ministry, but sometimes the demands of the task that we have been given get a little overwhelming or we get a little entrenched in them and it takes us to the place of burnout, which is the place beyond. A nap will just fix this kind of realm.Margie:

1:27So I have visited that place and I always appreciate people who are willing to come on the podcast and share their back from burnout stories, because we all can learn from one another as we go along here, and today I have Reverend Eden Avalos with me and I met him at a development session in San Diego for coaches, so he's a coach as well, and he shared his burnout story and I was interested because I could tell he was a 30-something person. So I like to have the younger people on to learn from one another and to benefit and to grow. So I'm going to let Eden introduce himself. Tell us a bit about who you are and what you're doing these days.Eden:

2:19My name is Eden Avalos. I am in Indiana. I came from New Mexico. I've been in youth ministry, primarily here in Indiana.Eden:

2:29Before this I was kind of the catch-all, be-all pastor and I had different titles. I mean, I did a lot of youth ministry, I did a lot of associate work, I did a lot of outreach work During COVID, I did a lot of media work. So it was kind of, you know, whatever the need was at the time, that was my position. But here in Indiana it's primarily been one thing. It's just been youth ministry and associate to the pastor of just whatever he needs. If he's on vacation, I'm in charge. If he is in a meeting, I'm in charge, kind of a thing. So it's been different.Eden:

3:05This is my first full-time position I've done. You know there's no such thing as part-time ministry. It's the first time where I only have to do this. This is the only thing I have to do, and so before it was youth ministry and something else. It was youth ministry and real estate or ministry and working in a factory, ministry and, you know, photography or yard work, whatever. Whatever I needed to do to make ends meet was my former life, whereas now it's just this is all I have to do, and everything outside of ministry is just something I want to do, so it's a good combination.Margie:

3:43Now, Okay, so you talked about your visit to burnout and I guess I'm curious when you first got the inkling that something was off.Eden:

3:57The first time must have been. I think we were going on a youth trip to San Diego again and I remember reaching the top of the hill and looking over the water and I was just thinking like this has to be the last time I do this trip, like I don't want to do this anymore. I'm tired. And I enjoyed that trip though it's always a fun event. I always have had fun with the kids but I was just done with it. I was just. I just didn't want to keep going. And then from that point on, I still did it one more time, but the last time I did it I was just.Eden:

4:37I was in a whole different place mentally, a darker place mentally, and it was that it was that first time where I was just getting to the point where I had just so much going on, I was being pulled in too many different directions and now I had to go on this trip. And so I think that is like the beginning of when I was starting to think like I have to figure something out. But in that I needed to get out of ministry was my thought process. But when my wife got pregnant is when I did a self-reflection, a self-analysis, and I looked at just my life and I thought I can't be a father effectively with all this going on. I have to fix this. With all this going on, I have to fix this. And so that's when I went into therapy and really just started narrowing down on these things and did the work that the therapist was recommending.Eden:

5:36And during that time it was just not. It was just wasn't great at work because I was going through an interim phase and myself and the other and the youth pastor took on the interim position for a year, about a year. It was during COVID and it was. It was at a legacy church, you know, a church that had a very prominent position and my father-in-law was the pastor that was there before me and when he retired he kind of we took it on and it was a very, just, very difficult time. We didn't know what was going on, we didn't know how the election process was going. We just kind of were it kind of put into a corner. But then when the new pastor was elected, they hired this great guy. I still love the guy, he's a great pastor and I committed I'm going to serve under him for a minimum of one year and then if something opens up, I'll step out.Eden:

6:38And something opened up and so I stepped out after a year, wanting to stay there, but I stepped out. I stepped out just because, being related to the former pastor and being, you know, kind of, I felt like I was carrying that legacy into the church, just being related to the former pastor, and so I felt like I was doing a disservice to the current pastor and so I had to. I stepped out. But my family is all back home in New Mexico and so it was a difficult decision to come out here. But I felt like I was in a better place mentally to and physically and emotionally to come out here and pastor alongside my current pastor. But the first inkling was that I just realized I can't keep going in a hundred different directions at a hundred miles an hour and I need something, needs something, has to give, because it's going to break. And then it, and then it just did break.Margie:

7:36So when you say it, it did break, what exactly describe for us what what that looked like?Eden:

7:44Yeah, so it wasn't like one moment. It was a series of moments where, right after COVID, right after we got shut down sorry, no, let me backtrack Right after I took on the interim role and I didn't take it on by myself, but I'll just, without including the other pastor I took on the interim, interim role and the first thing we had to do was a funeral for one of my teenagers who had committed suicide and so that kind of put me in a tailspin and nobody checked in on us.Eden:

8:20Nobody checked in. You know how are you handling this? I was checking in on the family, I was checking in on the kids, on the other people that you know were affected by this, but nobody was just checking in on me. My wife was checking in on me, but I wasn't giving her everything, I wasn't telling her everything, because I just had learned at that point you bottle everything up, so how old were you at that point?Margie:

8:45I'm so bad with age I think I was just had learned at that point. You bottle everything up. So how old were you at that point?Eden:

8:47I'm so bad with age. I think I was 28. Okay, I have no idea, I'm currently 32, but only because I just remembered yesterday that I'm 32. So I'm not exactly sure of ages. But it was a few months right before COVID hit, so it was March of 2020. A few months before, that is when, is when it was when this all happened, and then, and then it hit, and then it just went, you know just terribly.Margie:

9:14Oh it was it was, that was, was, would you say. This is accurate, that the suicide of the teenager was maybe the straw that broke the camel's back for you, or just put you over the edge?Eden:

9:30I would say I would say that it I had. I was at capacity or right before capacity and this came on and but then it just kept piling up. After that four capacity and this came on and but then it just kept piling up after that. And so I guess, I guess, I guess it could have been I I'm not sure exactly I'd have to look at my journal of of, just because, surprisingly, I I've kept the journal for the past, you know, six years, even through burnout, and it's kind of dark to read through because you're like what is going on in this guy's life? Or a couple years ago it was, it was I was just saying like today was terrible, today was terrible, today was okay, today was terrible, today was terrible.Eden:

10:10Um, so I I could back track and kind of see where it all really fell apart, but it it could have been that that that kind of pushed me over, but I had a lot going in. I I had a lot that I was just tolerating, that I was ignoring a lot of the, not to speak ill of anyone. But people don't appreciate the interim pastor, the associate pastor, the youth pastor, as much as they appreciate the senior pastor and so pastor, the youth pastor, as much as they appreciate the senior pastor. And so, even though during the interim period we didn't lose a single member, we didn't have any major fights, we didn't have any major breakouts, that was never acknowledged, that was never.Margie:

10:58That you were holding the fort together. Basically, Right.Eden:

11:01Plus doing our own jobs of our individual ministry, plus doing our bivocational jobs to make ends meet. And so I think the moment that I realized I can't do this anymore is when, like at the end of the interim period, when they had elected the new, the coming senior pastor, they said we'd like to now thank Pastor Eden and the other pastor for their pulpit supply for the last year. And I was. I just that moment broke me because I was like, oh, the pulpit supply, that's all we did. Pulpit supply, okay, that's good. I'm glad nothing else got noticed. I'm glad that you know that that's what I'm known for is pulpit supply. And so that moment is the one where I was just like this isn't going to work, like I can't do this, I'm not doing this, and that's when around that time is when I was, when I I started going to therapy and and really I just broke down with my wife and just told her like this is, this has gotten pretty bad, this is not a good, I'm not in a good place and I need help, and so that's that's, that's the start of it. And then going through therapy and going through the things that my counselor was telling me, kind of getting that shift in perspective helped me out a lot. And then still on the ordination track, still doing the all the things that you're required to do for ordination, and so I took an assessment once for one of the requirements. It was a psychological assessment and the person doing the analysis saw my report and was like are you in therapy? You might need to be in therapy because it seems like you're going through a lot of trauma. You've done, you've dealt with a lot. You need to, you've you need to get these things sorted out. And I told him like yeah, I'm actually currently in therapy, and so he kind of I think he was like okay, well, if you're as long as you're working on these things, I think you'll be fine.Eden:

12:59In my report I just saw a lot of potentially dangerous things that I just was ignoring. I was just not paying attention to myself, I wasn't paying attention to my body telling me slow down, stop, stop worrying about all of these things all at once. But I had no solutions. I had no. There was nothing that I could do at the time. It was weird. And then, but then doors started opening. People were offering me positions, and at first it was, they were all positions that were worse than the position that I was at.Margie:

13:40They were worse, meaning you knew you'd end up running hard and fast on the hamster wheel with a heavy load.Eden:

13:46Right, exactly Like worse. And it's not about the money, but it was not enough money, and it was. It was I knew I'd have to go to get the ministry job plus do a whole other job, a whole other career, or my wife would have to do that and my daughter would have to be put in daycare, and we just weren't negotiating that we or my wife would have to do that and my daughter would have to be put in daycare, and we just weren't negotiating that. We're just, we weren't going to do that. Not that there's anything wrong with daycare, we just didn't want to do that.Eden:

14:13And so we, we, we kept getting offers like this and I just kept thinking like this just isn't working, I don't think there's, I don't think there's anything for me. And so I started at a company, just at a factory, just thinking I'll work my way up. And it's not, it was a, it was a. Faith comes by hearing, and so I'm not sure if you or your listeners are familiar, but it's just, they put audio Bibles together, and so that's that's what I did, was I? I went there with, you know, with a master's degree, with, at that point, you know, 10 years of of pastoral experience, army experience, and.Eden:

14:53I got a factory job and it was. It was helpful getting to sit there and just put these things together for eight hours a day, because I got to listen to audiobooks, I got to listen to the bible, I got to listen to podcasts and I was able to do a lot of deep work during that that time that I wasn't expecting to do. I thought like I'm just going to go in and I'm going to start a new career and I'm going to work my way up in this company. But then within the company, all the positions that were interesting to me were getting taken up and I asked my boss I was like, why am I being passed over? And she said, well, you have to be here for a year before we can recommend you for another position. And all the positions were getting filled and there's not a high turnover rate at that company at those positions. And so I was like so I have to be here for a year doing this sitting. And it was physically demanding because the tables, all the factory, was set up for shorter people and I'm, you know, six foot two and so I'm kind of like leaned over like this putting these things together, and so physically I was in a lot of pain and I thought I can't do this for a year and then hope for a position later, and so I ended up just having to quit and and and and was just waiting for something to open up.Eden:

16:16Um, I was still selling real estate at the time, but it was. I was getting burnt out from it because of all the I like that business, but I didn't. I don't think I was in a healthy place mentally to be doing it well, and so I wasn't trying as hard. I was still getting sales and I was still able to make money with it, but it wasn't. It just wasn't ideal, and so we had to my wife and I just had to make a lot of shifts.Eden:

16:45We were living with family during this time and we just realized like we need our own space, and so we got an apartment that we could barely afford. But we had money in savings and so we got the apartment just to hopefully figure something out, just hopefully something will come our way and this will get resolved. And we were there for, I think, eight months and it was just a haven. It was just a safe, warm place that we got to be together, alone, and it made the difference, getting to just to be alone as our little family, because at that point my daughter, when she was born, she was born and we were living with family, and so she moved in with family and not that that's wrong or bad, it's just it didn't work.Eden:

17:37It is Everyone's on top of each other. Everyone's, we're sharing a kitchen, we're sharing all these things. Everyone's, we're sharing a kitchen, we're sharing all these things. And it was a good time, but I was not in the place to enjoy it as I could have. I just I had a lot of deep work that I needed to do, that I had not done, and so so how?Margie:

17:58how long was your? Well? First, let's back up. How did you find this therapist? What? What was the process in coming to find somebody that you felt you could work with?Eden:

18:11So that was a miracle of God. The office that I called it was just a Christian counseling office that was down the street. And I called and asked you know how much is it, do you have any availability? And they said we don't have anybody available right now, but we do have interns that are available. Are you willing to meet with an intern? And at that point I was just desperate. I said I'll meet with the janitor, I don't care, like just any anyone, whoever you have is good.Eden:

18:39And so I, I met with my counselor, uh, that first time, and I was hesitant going in because a lot of what my not a lot, but a good chunk of what my problem was was theological understandings of, like what is going on in the world and why can't I make sense of it and why does it seem to be inconsistent with theology, with just worldview. And I was hoping that I would get somebody who was like-minded, who had similar theological understandings. And I knew that that was a high order, because most counselors have to have master's. I mean, all counselors have to have master's degrees and that's a high degree to get. And so I thought like I don't think that most counselors get theological training, but let's just see what happens.Eden:

19:31And I go and I meet with this intern and he was a former pastor and he had a former pastor and he had a master's degree in theology and was getting his master's degree in counseling and it was just, he was a line of rescue that got sent because our theological beliefs were very similar.Eden:

19:53We had a very similar upbringing, very similar background, and he was able to walk me through a lot of the things that we went through because he had walked through them and so he was a godsend. It was truly a miracle that God even orchestrated that, because I could have ended up with the other person. You know that that would have been something different and it probably would have helped still, but this, the, the gentleman that I that I was with, uh, just completely helped me, recenter myself on the practice, the basic practices, you know, the, the Jesus prayer, the it was a lot of. It was Greek Orthodox, so a lot of it was just recentering on the fact of that. God is powerful, god is moving, god has the ability to, to change these things and, you know, with the help of therapy it's just compounds and I just took on spiritual practices of, you know fasting, of praying, you know working out.Eden:

20:59It's not necessarily a spiritual practice, but it is a practice that I think, is important, and so I kind of hobbled together these things and it made a huge difference. And at this point now I'm on the side where I'm no longer underground, I'm no long like. The fire has already been put out, it's been cleaned out, everything's been pulled out. Now I'm just building up.Margie:

21:24Okay, how long about? How long of a process was this for you?Eden:

21:29I think it's been about four years. If I were to put a number on it, I'd say about four to five years. It's been about closer to four, I think 44 years of total of from the beginning stages to now. It's been about four.Margie:

21:46And what would you say are the top things you learned along the way that would be helpful say to our audience along the way that would be helpful.Eden:

21:56say to our audience Realize that if you need help, you need help. Don't put it off, because it can go bad really quick. If you have trauma in your life that is unaddressed, it needs to be addressed. If you have self-deprecation issues which I have, I still have, I still it's. My tendency is to self-deprecate. But if you are a person that does that, that is not going to help. Living in shame is not going to help.Margie:

22:32It just makes it significantly worse and worse, and so and how would you describe self-deprecating, in case somebody wants a little more unpacking on that?Eden:

22:43Anything I do, I do it wrong. If I cured cancer tomorrow, I would have taken too long, I would have done it wrong, I would have been over budget. I would have been over budget. I always find a way to tear down what I do. Regardless of what I do or regardless of how well I do it, I can do something extremely well. Look at it and go eh, it wasn't that hard, actually, anyone can do it.Eden:

23:09Just recently I was talking about education through high school. All of my teachers none of my teachers encouraged me to go to college because they didn't think I could make it, and so I was just of the belief that I'm just not going to college. I have to figure something else out. But I had one teacher who said you need to go like if you want to go, you can make it like that, you shouldn't let that slow you down. And that one teacher made a difference and I didn't, you know, enroll in college until I was 21, 22. So I was older than the other students, but I had a calling on my life, and so I believe that I needed to go to college.Eden:

23:48In my first semester I was nervous, I was terrified, but I did it. And then I thought, okay, well, I can, I can do another one, and I can do another one. Then I got my bachelor's degree then and I'm like, well, let's see if I can do a master's degree. And I got my master's degree and then when I graduated with my master's degree, I looked at all of my education and I went, if I could do it, then anyone can do it. So it wasn't that hard, it clearly wasn't that difficult, and so I just tore it down. I just thought, like, I don't even have I still don't even have my degrees hanging on the wall, because it's just that that's my habit is like, oh, if I did it, it's anyone, anyone's capable of doing it, and right now it's just because I haven't done it.Margie:

24:29I will put them up at some point, but I just don't have.Eden:

24:32I don't know where they are.Margie:

24:33We just moved, so yeah, so anything else words of wisdom besides, if you to get help quickly, to realize I need help and to go after that and and if you know that you have trauma or you know that you have quirks about how you perceive yourself, how you perceive life and just your general mindset, is there any other words of?Eden:

25:02wisdom that you'd offer. Ultimately, just take it seriously. If you've decided to call out and you get help, take what they say seriously. Don't just kind of process it mentally and think, oh just, yeah, sure, that's great, do the work. Do the work because otherwise you're just putting a Band-Aid on the issue and you're not getting to the symptoms, you're not actually healing, you're just masking and you're ignoring.Eden:

25:31And you have to do a life shift, a complete shift, to get out of burnout successfully, to get out of that mindset successfully. You have to change everything because if you keep, the reason you got there is because all of your habits led you to that. It's not a random thing that was just dealt to you. It's the way you process, the way you engage, the way you do. All of those things led you to that, and so if you want to get out of that, you have to undo all the things you were doing, and it takes a long time. It's be patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, give yourself rest, give yourself breaks because you're going to need them overall.Eden:

26:20You're going to need them. If you don't, you're just going to end up back in the same place as you were before. I actively have to tell myself no, you don't need another job. No, you shouldn't start a business. No, you don't. That like what you're doing is you're panicking, and so like I have to understand when I start getting uneasy. I have to understand well, what is the source of this, where is this coming from and what am I trying to ignore, and that I mean. That helps a lot to do that and that's a level of self-awareness which which I think, boy, there should be courses on just that.Eden:

26:59Especially for path.Margie:

27:00At all levels, at all levels of education there should be. You know, why am I doing this? Why is this annoying me? Why does that congregate annoy me? You know and you could find out. Oh my gosh, he reminds me of my brother, right?Eden:

27:14annoy me, you know, and you could find out.Margie:

27:15Oh my gosh, he reminds me of my brother, you know, my brother makes me nuts, you know, and at least coming asking those kinds of questions, what do you do differently now? How does your life look differently now than before?Eden:

27:29I, I'm trying to. I, I do my best to be more intentional about enjoying things, and while that's still hard, I intentionally try to enjoy things Like vacations. I grew up, you know, I'm an immigrant, my parents are immigrants, and so, growing up as an immigrant, you learn to work, and we never vacationed as kids. We went on vacations, but they were work vacations, they were work trips, and so my dad, my mom, they don't know how to rest, they don't know how to stop, and therefore I don't know how to stop, I don't know how to rest. I never, you know, we never took time off. And so even when I was at my last church vacay I think I took three vacations in seven years, and those vacations were still. I still was doing homework during those, or I was, I was still answering phone calls, or I was still, you know, checking email or whatever. It was, just to keep things going.Margie:

28:33But and that's a boundary, that's a boundary issue. You probably learned that. Yeah, I did.Eden:

28:37And in some vacations, like some trips, I would say like I'm on break from ministry but I still have to do real estate.Eden:

28:46Or I'm on break from real estate but I still am waiting on a call from a pastor or something, and so, like the unfortunate reality is bivocational pastors don't have that luxury to turn those things off all of them at once, because the timing is just not always good.Eden:

29:04But for those that get to do this full time, you have to set those boundaries, because if you don't, people are looking for your boundaries and they're not doing it in a cynical way, they're just they need people, need people and the pastor just happens to be one of the most accessible people to get. And so if the pastor doesn't have good boundaries, the congregants understand well, I can just go to him, go to her regardless. I know they on vacation, but I really need to know whether or not I should eat this thing or whether and it's all most of it is petty things. A lot of it is petty things. But every now and then you know, of course there has to be a limit, be ignored. But if you're, if you're, if you're allowing the little things to bother you, when you've set those boundaries, then you've not really set any boundaries, and people are going to continue to bring those little things to you, and so you condition the people around you with your boundaries.Margie:

30:10And you said it way nicer than I would just say you train them, you got to train them, Right right, train them up, right you know, Right, but yeah, if you don't train them, if you don't condition them to know like these are my boundaries, you need to respect them.Eden:

30:26they're going to go past them because they think they need you.Margie:

30:32And they don't know any better.Eden:

30:42Right. Right, because they never learned. And that's the thing is that in, in, in my, in my recovery, in my all this, what I've learned is broken people or break other people, and everyone's a little bit broken, so can't expect people to be 100% all the time, and I think a lot of people are redlining. I think a lot of people are just white knuckling their way through. A lot of pastors, primarily, are doing that, and even young pastors that I've met. I ask them, like what are your plans? And they have these huge goals and these huge plans and I'm like you got to slow down, like I was exactly where you were and I burnt out. It did not work out for me. They always say the same things I would have said, which is like, well, it just wouldn't work for you, but it'll work for me Because, I mean, the arrogance of young people is just, it's funny.Margie:

31:32Now it's funny. It wasn't yeah now it's the older you get. That's when you start fudging your age more and you look back and go.Eden:

31:42What was I? Thinking yeah yeah, oh yeah. I remember some of the things I in my early years, some of the goals I had in my early years, was like who, who do you think you are, that you think you could pull?Eden:

31:54that off and not to be not being deprecated, but it's like I was. I was, you know, thinking. I was a two-year pastor, thinking I could shift a whole denomination, like that's really unlikely. Or that I could lead the church that's really unlikely. A huge church, a small church, I probably could have handled. But I thought, like I can come in and I can just redo everything. No, you'll burn out, you'll die.Margie:

32:19How does then call fit into this picture?Eden:

32:28That's the beautiful part. Is that beautiful and annoying? But beautiful and annoying because for most of my life I knew I had a call to do something for.Margie:

32:41God, Because your dad was a pastor right.Eden:

32:44No my father-in-law. My dad was a business owner, but we were raised in the church and my mom was a treasurer. Anytime the doors were open, we were there.Margie:

32:55Anytime the doors were open.Eden:

32:55We were there Every time the doors were closed. We were there opening the doors. So we were constantly there and but my life, I always had sensed that I had a call. And the difficult thing is that my mom, when she was younger, living in Mexico, she had her own salvation moment and she in those moments said to God, I will dedicate one of my children to serve you, and didn't tell me that was me.Eden:

33:30And so it was. At one point I realized like I think I might have been manipulated into being a pastor, or talked into being a pastor and manipulating is a wrong word comparing to your mom, but like I felt like maybe maybe I wasn't supposed to be a pastor, Maybe that's why all these things are going wrong. But through the work that I have done and just taking a deep look at myself and my abilities and my you know and my desires, the call to ministry is the most prominent thing, and so, even when I've tried to run from it, I always go back to but how does this line up with this? How does this? How can I keep, how can I salvage this to use, to still continue to do this? And so God has just never let me go.Eden:

34:22Even when I asked him to let me go, even when I begged him to let me go, he's not let me go, and that has been what has kept me still in ministry. And you know, regarding the future, what my plans are. I don't know what the future holds. I don't know what my next assignment will look like. I don't know if I'll be here for 20 years. It could happen. Those things happen time to time. But I know that, regardless of where I am, my calling to minister to be a help to other people, to help other people find God or understand God better, that will somehow still be involved, because that's just the way it's always been involved, because that's just the way it's always been.Margie:

35:16And so my call has just been one that I can't get out of, even though I've tried to get out of it.Eden:

35:19It's one that I can't ignore. All the doors that have opened all narrowed down to this, and I can't, and at this point I don't want to. I want to stay as a pastor for my life. That would be ideal, whether or not you know, with what goes on in churches, with what goes on with denominations, with what goes on with cultures, whether or not I'll get to do this full time at this point in this age. It seems a little unlikely. But that's only because my pessimistic side of me, which is dominant of my pessimistic side, is like well, this is kind of not going well, so it might not work out. But the the optimistic side of me, the inspired side of me, is like well, regardless, it'll work out and you'll still be doing something, whether or not you're doing it full time or you're doing it kind of just as a person, that it'll still be happening in one way or the other.Margie:

36:20Right. Right, because your call comes from God and you're serving God's purposes and work in the world. And how that looks is it depends on where God plants your feet and the circumstances around you, but the call does not change. Right Whether it's a denominational thing or something else, and I know you also coach, so you've dabbled with that and that's a helping form of ministry as well.Eden:

36:54Yeah, I found coaching to be the glue that has kept a lot of what I do, or a lot of myself, together, but it's made what I do sustainable. So whenever I start something new, I go through the coaching process of well, why am I doing this, what are the challenges and what are the ways to make this viable, to keep this going for a long time, because I could try to start something and make it exciting and really expensive. Start something and make it exciting and really expensive, but then if I leave and it's it doesn't stick around, then that was a failure, and so I've. I've learned in my in my time in ministry you don't leave a place with a hole, you don't leave a place with a vacancy. You train up others to be able to take that on, and so here it's the same thing it's I don't want to overdo it under deliver, leave and then leave everybody with a crater of what was a youth ministry or what was an associate ministry, and so, yeah, Right, right.Margie:

38:08Well, I appreciate your sharing with us. I'm really intrigued that you some of what helps you find your way back was some Orthodox-related practices and some of it was some self-care practices. I know for me I had a spiritual director who heavily Ignatian-ed me and I tend to, you know, use some of that because it's very big picture kinds of questions about who you are and what you're doing, why you're doing it and and who you are before God. I really like that you have the the self-care piece, because we just we need to take care of. It's a stewardship issue for us to take care of who we are before God. This is the body that God has given to us and we need to take care of it mentally, emotionally, spiritually, physically all of those things together. If you could leave us with one thought, what would be the big thing that you would like to leave us with?Eden:

39:19Start small. Anything you do, start small. I had a tendency of going big with everything right at the beginning and realize, just that's not, I can't you, if I, if you can't run a marathon after sitting on a couch for 10 years, it just won't go well. And so the thing I've learned to be the most effective for for my, you know, recovery and and then, but then just of just of consistent life habits, is just start small, have a small goal and just do that consistently, because doing something once 100 times is better than doing something 20 times really intensely.Eden:

40:05And so if, over the span of a year, you only worked out four or five times for three hours at a time, that's not good. That's not great. But if you worked out 365 days a year for 10 minutes a day, that's significantly more, and I don't know how significantly. I'm bad at math, but the issue is you have to start small and sustainable and build on those things as you get better and better. Like one of my hobbies do your hobbies, find a hobby that you like and truly do it.Eden:

40:44One of the things that has brought me a lot of life has been just creative storytelling, like writing, just writing stories, and they have no purpose. They don't have an audience. There's no reason to these stories that I have. I have like 30, 40 stories in my notes that I've just been working on for the past year and I like them. I think they're funny, I think they're cute. My wife thinks they're funny, but I don't do them because I want to make a living with it. I just do them because it excites me.Eden:

41:15I have an idea, I write it out, I look at it and like that was a good idea or that that didn't work, and then I just start over and I have a practice I have if I could leave you with two things is have a set of practices every day, that these are the things that are non-negotiable. These are the things you have to do. Everything else is negotiable and if you can build on those things you can, you can do a lot more. For me, one of those practices is writing you just every day, you spend some time writing and I was never a writer before I could write.Eden:

41:45You know, I have a master's degree. I've written pages of research for that degree, but I never saw myself as a creative writer or a storyteller until I just started writing. And, ironically, one of the first things I did at the beginning of my recovery of burnout was I had an idea for a story and I just started writing it and I gained so much joy from it that I kept doing it. And then I got distracted with another idea and I started writing. And so, like that, that first story that I started sits on my computer as a, as a document. It's just like are you going to, are you going to finish this?Eden:

42:28But, like working on all these other stories because it's it's still just something that I enjoy. But. But I'm like working on all these other stories because it's it's still just something that I enjoy, but that that open document doesn't cause me anxiety Like some of these other things that cause me anxiety that are left on open because it brings me joy. It brings, it, excites me, it's something fun that I get to do, and I think it's important that pastors specifically engage in their creative outlets, without trying to turn it into a sermon, without trying to turn it into a Bible study, because your pastors generally are creative people. You have to kind of have to be creative. So engage in that, because that's it's not just for work. Not everything you do has to be work. So start small and not everything has to be work would be the things that I would leave you with.Margie:

43:23I like it, I like it and I. I was the person who made fun of people with a craft room and I I didn't get it until I got into. I took a class on stained glass about nine or ten years ago and I have like saws and electrical, all kinds of my. I have a workshop. That's just a beast that's awesome of a workshop I sold.Eden:

43:50I sold a house to a lady who the whole process she was like I need to have a yarn room, I need to have a room that's specifically this big for yarn. And I was getting tired of looking for houses with a big enough room for a yarn room and I was like why, why do you need a yarn room? And then when I sold her the house and we moved in and I saw all the quilts that she made, I was like, oh, good lord, yeah, that's why, like, that's incredible, it's beautiful, yeah and it, it.Margie:

44:15It's part of restoring your soul, it's part of christ leading you to the quiet waters and the green grass and just chill there for a minute and think about one thing, just that, and only that, which is our brains go in too many directions at once and that's fatiguing. So that's what I learned, anyway. Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being willing to come on and to share, and I know it will be helpful to those who listen. So thank you very much.Eden:

44:51Thank you for having me.Margie:

45:03Hey, friends, to those who listen, so thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Hey, friends, the crabby pastor podcast is sponsored by bryce art glass and you can find that on facebook. I make stained glass that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes. But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry ministry leaders.Margie:

45:52Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help. I would consider it an honor and in all things and honor and in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices, you know, so that you don't become the crabby Pastor.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?

What happens when the weight of ministry becomes too heavy to bear? Pastor Pat Robbins from Brown City United Methodist Church courageously shares his journey through a period of intense burnout. He faced a harrowing series of personal and professional challenges: losing multiple church members to grappling with family tragedies and his own severe health issues. Pastor Pat opens up about the overwhelming stress these events placed on him, especially during the pandemic, and how it ultimately led him to a breaking point.

Join us as Pastor Pat unpacks how he recognized burnout, the physical and emotional toll it took, and his path to recovery. This episode shines a light on the critical need for support and resources for ministry leaders. Whether you're currently experiencing similar struggles or seeking to better understand the pressures of ministry, Pastor Pat's story offers valuable insights and encouragement. Remember, no matter how isolated or overwhelmed you might feel, there's always hope and help available. Reach out, connect, and let’s walk this journey together.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right? What happens when the weight of ministry becomes too heavy to bear? Pastor Pat Robbins from Brown City United Methodist Church courageously shares his journey through a period of intense burnout. He faced a harrowing series of personal and professional challenges: losing multiple church members to grappling with family tragedies and his own severe health issues. Pastor Pat opens up about the overwhelming stress these events placed on him, especially during the pandemic, and how it ultimately led him to a breaking point.Join us as Pastor Pat unpacks how he recognized burnout, the physical and emotional toll it took, and his path to recovery. This episode shines a light on the critical need for support and resources for ministry leaders. Whether you're currently experiencing similar struggles or seeking to better understand the pressures of ministry, Pastor Pat's story offers valuable insights and encouragement. Remember, no matter how isolated or overwhelmed you might feel, there's always hope and help available. Reach out, connect, and let’s walk this journey together.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. I'm always really grateful when ministry colleagues are willing to share when things don't go well, and I'm very, very grateful to this pastor that's about to share his back from burnout kind of story and while his situation was extreme and there was a period of months where there was an extreme amount of loss and challenge going on in his life, I want to say to you that you don't have to have that level of items and situations occurring in your life to have burnout happen.Margie: 1:19

And sometimes as ministry leaders we isolate, we don't get the help we need.Margie: 1:27

We are concerned about where we can be open, honest and vulnerable and we aren't sure where the resources are where we can get help.Margie: 1:39

So I'm hoping that Pastor Pat's story here will prod you to get the help that you need and maybe consider resources, consider who you might speak with friends, colleagues, supervisors.Margie: 1:54

If you really feel like you don't have anyone, you can always reach out to me at either the Krabby Pastor you can go to krabbypastorcom and connect with me through the website or margie, at margiebricecom. Reach out to me and maybe I'll put a link in the show notes so you could do that if you really feel like you have no one that you want to hash this around with. So that's my encouragement to you and listen closely and intently to this veteran pastor. Tell his story In this episode of the Krabby Pastor podcast. I am here with Pastor Pat Robbins at Brown City United Methodist Church and he has so graciously offered to share his story, to talk about the kinds of things that he experienced as he approached burnout and then where he is at now. And I'm very thankful, pat, that you're willing to come on here, that you're willing to share, always with the hope that other people will come away with something for their toolbox.Pat: 3:07

Yes, I agree.Margie: 3:09

Yes.Pat: 3:10

My pleasure.Margie: 3:11

Oh, thank you, thank you. So I want to ask you, though, to start out, how long have you been in pastoral ministry? I think.Pat: 3:21

I've been in pastoral ministry going on 27 years 27 years.Margie: 3:25

That's a long time. I know you've had a really good run, a really solid ministry here, and the point of pointing that out is that it's kind of interesting how you were in ministry that long and then it's later in your ministry that you do come to experience burnout and it really has caused some shifts for you. But tell us how you came to understand that you were experiencing burnout.Pat: 3:58

Well, it sort of came to pass when the crazy election was going on and then we were dealing with the pandemic and, like many of our colleagues, there's a lot of stress going on because of the pandemic in the local churches here in Brown City. We had like 14 of our members had passed away and that brought a lot of extra stress. At the same time I had an aunt, an uncle, a grandson that died. My daughter was diagnosed with cancer, my lifelong friend had died and it was just overwhelming at the time it all happened and it seemed like such a short time that it was really hard to breathe. It was hard to find uh rest. I was pretty weary. Uh people would ask me, are you okay? And I would say yeah, I'm okay, but I really wasn't. I didn't know, uh quite how to handle what was going on in my body and in my mind, because I also had the COVID for 17 days.Pat: 5:07

we were pretty sick after the COVID. I had lost my eyesight and I had to have new lenses put in my eyes and I'd lost my hearing. So I have hearing aids now and it all just happened. It was like one right after another and there was just I didn't know where to turn. And this was like one right after another, and there was just I didn't know where to turn.Margie: 5:27

And this was over a span of how many months that all this happened.Pat: 5:31

This was over a span of about 13 or 14 months. Okay.Margie: 5:35

Okay, I remember you telling me about you were still very passionate about ministry and that you were going to nursing homes, very passionate about ministry and that you were going to nursing homes, and I think you were crawling up a ladder to Well, during the, during the pandemic, there was a woman in the nursing home in Seedling, barb Downing, and I went to visit Barb.Pat: 5:58

I was told that she was dying of bone cancer and Barb was a friend of ours and when I went to see her at the nursing home at that time you were not allowed to go into nursing homes, but they had set up a 20 foot ladder outside with a set of scaffolding beside the ladder.Pat: 6:16

So I got to climb the ladder and sit on the scaffolding outside of Barb's window and minister to her that way. Knowing that when I climbed down the ladder that was the last time I was going to see her, was pretty difficult. But I thank God for the time that I was able to spend with her and touch her hand through the screen and pray with her. I am forever grateful for that opportunity.Margie: 6:42

You sound like you did some amazing ministry During that time in your church. You were still, by all accounts, looking pretty strong through COVID and you're in a small rural town, but you were having some successful ministry, so it would look good, pretty respectable on paper, right.Pat: 7:01

It looked good on paper and I think for me, when the day my daughter came over to tell me she had cancer, that was that was pretty difficult. You know, I have one daughter and she'll always be my baby girl, no matter how old she was. And it was just. And then a short time after that, her grandson died and it was just overwhelming, so trying to put on that pastoral face for everybody else. But when you look in the mirror you were really struggling, I was really struggling.Margie: 7:45

So what would you say? The telltale signs of burnout approaching would be.Pat: 7:52

Well, the telltale sign for me was I couldn't sleep, I couldn't eat, I was irritable and all of a sudden I just wanted to hide, because it was really difficult at the time and it was hard to be the happy-go-loving pastor for everybody when I was hurting so deep inside of myself.Margie: 8:17

Yeah I was going to say because I don't think hide is in your nature Really.Pat: 8:21

No, hiding is not in my nature. Yeah, there was just so much stuff going on at the same time.Margie: 8:31

So how did you get the help that you needed?Pat: 8:35

Well, you know I thank God for the District Board of Ordained Ministry. I'm a local pastor. Each year we go before the District Board of Ordained Ministry and the day of my Zoom meeting with the District Board I think pretty much everybody on the committee could see that I was weary and at some point in our conversation somebody had mentioned taking a sabbatical time, which I really never heard of that before. I didn't know that there was such a thing available.Margie: 9:06

You never heard of a sabbatical before.Pat: 9:09

No, I didn't know that there was such a thing. Oh, the district board said well, we need to talk to the superintendent. So I'm assuming after I was done with my zoom meeting with them they contacted the superintendent because Reverend Heiss called me that afternoon. It was like three days later. I was on a six week sabbatical which in all my years of ministry was one of the biggest blessings that I experienced. In all my years of ministry was one of the biggest blessings that I experienced.Margie: 9:38

So were you the kind of pastor then that made sure you took all of your vacation time every year before?Pat: 9:44

No, not usually. No, didn't really worry about taking the day off. Didn't always take the vacation. Would put family things aside to do church things. Everything came before my wife and I.Pat: 9:59

We were church, church, church. I think one of the things I've learned through this whole process is that I need to take care of me first. I need to make sure that I'm all right. I need to make sure that I'm healthy. I need to make sure that I'm well-rested. I need to make sure that I'm all right. I need to make sure that I'm healthy. I need to make sure that I'm well rested. I need to make sure that I'm in God's word and when I get revived and when I'm well, then I can minister better is what I've learned.Margie: 10:28

That's a key takeaway. Talk to me about your sabbatical. What did you do? Or?Pat: 10:35

not do. What we did was we went up to Grayling and stayed in our Aunt Diane's house. She had recently died. Her and Uncle Jim died just a little bit apart. We stayed in their bed and breakfast, which is 15 feet off of the Manistee River, and we spent a lot of time in devotion, a lot of time in prayer, a lot of time in rest. The first week of the sabbatical was very difficult. My cousin kept asking me what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? Well, for the first time in my ministry, I was to do nothing, I was to rest and my wife and I were to take care of ourselves. And up until that point, I wasn't very good at that. I wasn't very good at taking care of myself. I always wanted to take care of everybody else. I'm a morning person. I'm usually up at 4 or 4.30 every morning. The funny thing is, on sabbatical there were days where we both slept until 10 o'clock in the morning, and that's unheard of.Pat: 11:47

I think that was a way of our bodies catching up on what we needed Right. So the sabbatical was a very peaceful time. Got to experience the wonders of God's creation right on the river. Most every morning there was one or two eagles in the tree outside of our door. It was just a wonderful time to be revived and to listen to what God had to tell me, and I do thank the Board of Ordained Ministry, I thank the superintendent for making a way for that to take me, and I do thank the board of ordained ministry. I thank the superintendent for making a way for that to take place. I like to call it a renewal, not a sabbatical, because what it did for both my wife and I it renewed us, it lifted our spirit, it lifted our energy and I think I have a better focus now.Margie: 12:40

You mentioned someone that called and said what's wrong with you. What kind of responses did you get from people around you?Pat: 12:48

For some of the folks. They asked what's wrong with you? You look tired, you okay today, today, pastor, and my response was always the same I'm fine, but I really wasn't fine. But you know, I've learned over my ministry that, uh, I don't share a lot with, I don't. I don't have a real big circle of people where I can share me. So I I acted like everything was okay. When everything wasn't okay, I tried to be the best spiritual leader during that time that I could be, but it wore me out. It really did.Margie: 13:29

Right, right. And when people found out you were on sabbatical, what was their response to that?Pat: 13:35

Oh, the response from this local church was fantastic. People came out of their comfort zone and they took on leadership roles and this church functioned quite well while we were gone. I thank God that we have a great secretary who helps keep this place running, and there were just people that normally wouldn't step forward that did, and everything ran rather smooth while we were gone.Margie: 13:59

Great, great. That's always a blessing to hear that and people then understand that, hey, this is our church too, and they step up and they take that ownership. How would you say that your ministry life now is different from ministry life, say, before you experienced burnout?Pat: 14:21

Well, one thing.Pat: 14:22

I know for certain is that I'm able to say no, and before I could never say no or I would never say no. But I can't do it all. And I've learned that that we're all in this together, be it our colleagues or be it our lay people. We're all in this ministry stuff together and we need to depend on each other. And I don't think I was a lone ranger you know, it wasn't my way or the highway but I like to do things. I like to lead by example. People see, and maybe then they'll follow.Pat: 15:00

But I think the best thing I've learned to say no that I don't have to do it all, that, uh, if I'm sitting down to have dinner and the phone rings, that I don't have to get up and leave my dinner and come back and eat it when it's cold, that I can finish my dinner and then go on to what the task is ahead. You know, I know of a colleague that had mentioned that he could really use a sabbatical, but he also stated that he doesn't think that he could leave the church because the church couldn't function without him. And I don't know if he'll listen to this, but I hope he does, because we have the pastor. We have to be healthy first and there are people in the congregation that will step up and and take that leadership role while we get the need, the care that we need. So I think that's important that pastors take time and first care for themselves.Margie: 15:59

Okay, what do you do now, then for self-care that maybe you didn't do before?Pat: 16:05

Well, I walk more in devotion, I read more, I rest more.Margie: 16:17

What do you do to rest? We have trouble stopping. That's why I'm bringing that up. Well, you know.Pat: 16:22

I just came off a vacation. We took 30 days and went and lived on the Betsy River over in Frankfurt, michigan, and salmon fished. So being outdoors is a way for me to rest. Spending time with my just me and the Lord is a time of rest, and spending time with my family and my wife. We've been together 47 years. We've been married and we're just now starting to spend more time with each other, because we've learned that if all we do is ministry, then we neglect each other and I've learned.Margie: 16:57

that's very important and I know she's a very active part of your ministry there as well.Pat: 17:02

She's very, very active in every aspect of my ministry.Margie: 17:08

That's a real treasure. So what would you say? This is your moment to say something to your fellow ministry colleagues. Go ahead and take the soapbox for a minute, pat.Pat: 17:22

What I'd like to say to my colleagues is that our superintendent is not our enemy, that he's our friend and he's there to help us, and the Board of Ordinary ministry is there to help us. They're not our enemy and it's okay for us to ask for help, to reach out and find that we're weary and ask for help and see what can be done to help us rejuvenate ourselves. I probably never would have asked because I didn't know that it was available to have such a thing, but I thank God that my colleagues saw the weariness and mentioned it first, because Karen and I got the blessing of that time away.Margie: 18:09

Great, great Well, I really appreciate it. Do you want to add anything else to what we've chatted? I really do appreciate your sharing this. When I heard your story of what those 13 months were like, I just wow, that's a lot and you don't have to be pressed all the way against the wall like you pretty much were. To seek routine self-care, to seek a sabbatical, I think in some denominations I think ours you're eligible every seven years-ish. There's a criteria. So if you have served that many years, you are eligible to take a sabbatical and that's just a wonderful resource. And I still am shocked that you had been in ministry that long and was unaware that that was available to you.Pat: 19:00

One last reminder from the Krabby Pastor is it can happen.Margie: 19:04

It absolutely can happen. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and giving us a glimpse into how you can go through burnout and then come back out on the other side in a better place, because I know ministry is going well for you right now, isn't it?Pat: 19:20

Yes, it is, things are well.Margie: 19:22

Yeah, even post-COVID, and the challenges that that is and that has been and will continue to be for a little while yet. But, yeah, I want to thank you so much for sharing with us today.Pat: 19:35

Thank you very much.Margie: 19:46

Have a blessed day. Okay, you too, please reach out and get the help that you need. If you, or maybe a colleague is experiencing burnout and just can't seem to move past, move beyond or through situations and the fatigue level is there, don't do nothing. Don't just think that an afternoon is going to take care of it. There are times and places where God is asking us just to stop totally for a period of time what you're doing. So reach out, go to the show notes. I'll put a link to connect with me via email if you really have no one else to reach out to.Margie: 20:27

You don't want to become the Crabby pastor. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices, you know, so that you don't become the crabby pastor.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right?

This is the story that Rev. Tony Miltenberger shared with me and it's one where he draws parallels with his demanding time in the Army Reserves. Our conversation underscores the dangers of righteous indignation in ministry and the importance of balancing personal responsibilities to avoid losing oneself in the mission.

For ministry leaders seeking practical advice to prevent burnout and build emotionally healthy practices, this episode is a goldmine. Tony offers invaluable insights on navigating the recovery process, the role of marriage and personal counseling, and the creation of life-giving rhythms inspired by Pete Scazzero. We also talk about the crucial need for pastors to carve out personal spiritual renewal time, independent of their ministry duties. Learn from Tony's experiences as he highlights how genuine disciple-making can transform your ministry and ensure you thrive both personally and professionally. Tune in for a heartfelt discussion packed with strategies to help you cultivate a sustainable and fulfilling ministry life.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

While on sabbatical (yes, I'm taking my own advice), we are replaying podcasts where our brave guests tell their journey into and out of burnout. You won't want to miss these as there's always something to learn from others, right? This is the story that Rev. Tony Miltenberger shared with me and it's one where he draws parallels with his demanding time in the Army Reserves. Our conversation underscores the dangers of righteous indignation in ministry and the importance of balancing personal responsibilities to avoid losing oneself in the mission.For ministry leaders seeking practical advice to prevent burnout and build emotionally healthy practices, this episode is a goldmine. Tony offers invaluable insights on navigating the recovery process, the role of marriage and personal counseling, and the creation of life-giving rhythms inspired by Pete Scazzero. We also talk about the crucial need for pastors to carve out personal spiritual renewal time, independent of their ministry duties. Learn from Tony's experiences as he highlights how genuine disciple-making can transform your ministry and ensure you thrive both personally and professionally. Tune in for a heartfelt discussion packed with strategies to help you cultivate a sustainable and fulfilling ministry life.

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey there, Margie Bryce here bringing you the Crabby Pastor podcast, and I don't think you're going to be too surprised to know that it's too easy today to become the Crabby Pastor. Our time together will give you food for thought to help you be the ministry leader fully surrendered to God's purposes and living into whatever it takes to get you there and keep you there. So we're talking about sustainability in ministry. We are here today with Reverend Tony Miltenberger and I am going to let Tony tell us exactly what he's up to these days. He is not in a pastoral capacity, yet very active in ministry. So tell us, tony, about what it is you're up to.Tony : 0:58

Well, thank you so much for having me on the show today. It's a real treat to be here. I'll tell you that I was in a local church for just over 10 years and now I work for a 501c3 nonprofit called Spirit and Truth, where we walk alongside and equip the local church in areas of disciple-making, evangelism and leaning into the power of the Holy Spirit. So I get to travel all over the country and talk to church leaders and pastors about disciple-making. I also get to create content for disciple making and I blog a little bit we have a sub stack and then also record two podcasts one called the Reclamation Podcast, the other one is called the Practitioners Podcast. Both of them are all about Jesus style disciple making and what that looks like.Margie: 1:43

Okay, and you're kind of crazy about disciple making, aren't you?Tony : 1:48

It's my passion, it's what wakes me up at night, gets me thinking. I think far too often we sell short the idea of disciple making and the fullness of life with Christ that comes with disciple making, and for the last couple of decades the church has done not a great job at teaching people to follow Jesus, but instead teaching them how to go to church, and that little nuance change could change everything.Margie: 2:12

Yeah, we're supposed to be disciple making factories. I think I read somewhere once and that has kind of lost its steam a little bit, I don't yeah, so hopefully recapturing that will be a huge, huge plus. So one thing I do want to do up front, because I always seem to forget this, and I had somebody graphically remind me they said the big disappointment for them they said this at the end of the interview was that I, here I am, I'm on the Krabby Pastor podcast and you never asked me what makes me Krabby. So before I forget to do that, I want to ask you, tony, what makes you Krabby and what do you do about that?Tony : 2:58

In life or in pastoring? Let me ask that differently.Margie: 3:02

Oh, all right, We'll let you off the hook and just say ministry related.Tony : 3:08

Ministry related. What makes me most crabby is when people see the church as a place to be a consumer and not an owner. So when people come in and complain about things like worship times or music or volume and all of a sudden they're just resorted to the idea that they're a consumer of the ministry and not an owner of God's mission.Margie: 3:39

And that will do it right yeah.Tony : 3:43

And the only thing I know how to do after that is to pray, because it's really hard to get someone who's seen themselves as a consumer their whole life to become an owner in one statement. So pray and then get close to him for disciple making.Margie: 3:57

Yes, yes, great, great, well good, thank you. I didn't want to forget to ask you that, since you are on the Krabby Pastor podcast. But the reason I asked you on here is because you have it sounds kind of strange to say a great burnout story. Just, I don't know, that feels a little irreverent. I don't mean to be irreverent this time, but what I wanted to ask you about then is your role when you were in pastoral ministry and your burnout journey.Tony : 4:34

Yeah. So I think the best place to start is to know that my ministry career started in the Army Reserves. So I was a chaplain's assistant in the Army Reserve and I got to travel around the world helping soldiers connect with God. And so I did that and it was great and I really struggled to find my identity and, like so many people, after a deployment I was in Kuwait from 04 to 05. I went and started bouncing around jobs and not sure that I could do ministry, and then in 2011, I jumped into ministry full-time at a very large United Methodist Church called Ginghamsburg United Methodist Church and I was the director of adult education and then eventually made my way up to being a pastor in the Methodist Church as a licensed local pastor and became pastor of adult discipleship, and it was in that role that I really began to experience burnout. But I want to be clear it's not burnout because I was so overworked. It's burnout because I lost myself in the process.Margie: 5:53

Hmm, and what did that look like?Tony : 5:59

Well, this may sound funny to a lot of people, but the local church is the closest thing I ever found to the army, and so the local church is like the army in the way that it connects with what we call the warrior ethos, which is I will always place the mission first, I will never accept defeat and I will never leave a fallen comrade. So if you take someone who's kind of an extremist like myself or someone who's all in on the mission like myself, and you put them in the local church, what you will quickly find is that there is always work to be done. There's always work to be done, and this is the most beautiful part. I don't know if all your pastors that you've had on talk about this, but there's something beautiful about righteous indignation when it comes to the work that you're doing right. So you can blow off your family, you can blow off your responsibilities, you can blow off all the things that go with a Christian life, because you're working for the church and no one bats an eye.Tony : 7:04

Another way to say it comparison to the army. My wife and I found out we were pregnant after I had been home on deployment, and so I missed the first trimester for pregnancy because I was still on deployment. And I always tell guys that if you can miss the first trimester of a because I was still on deployment, and I always tell guys that if you can miss the first trimester of a pregnancy and blame it on the global war on terror, that's a really good thing.Tony : 7:25

I suppose, yeah, it's kind of funny, right, but the same thing is actually true with the church that you can blow off your family for the sake of the mission of the church, even though that's not what God desires of us. And actually that's what happened to me and that really caused a lot of tension in my marriage and it caused a lot of tension just in my life.Margie: 7:47

Right, Well, I thought initially you were going to go with be all you can be. I actually had a pastor and he was an amazing pastor. He was saying that years before that became what is it the army slogan or whatever, but he meant be all you can be in Christ. So he was trying to tie our identity that way. However, it sounds like your identity was tied to the mission and in the church, the mission is important, what we're about is important, but you took it to a different level.Tony : 8:25

Well, so here's the thing right when I began to idolize the mission and the work of the church, I lost sight of who Jesus really was for me. And so in my case and this is an extreme case I'm aware of I had three kids all under the age of 10, two boys and a princess. My family life at home was rough because I was never there, and eventually that idea of trying to figure out who I was as a pastor, serving all the people, trying to keep everyone happy it, led me to a really, just, really, really dark place.Margie: 9:09

Yeah, I've heard this story before. You know, I'm not minimizing yours at all, but I have heard this before. It's forsaking everything for the mission and just ignoring the family life around you, the people God has placed close to you, and not just ignoring it like in a mean way, but setting it aside and going all in for the mission for the sake of Jesus, you know, because what it all depends just on you. I'm being tongue in cheek.Tony : 9:44

Sure, of course, of course. But that's a pretty accurate description of how I felt. And the funny part is and I can see this now from the hindsight is the resentment of my wife's frustration was part of this buildup for me. So here I am, serving in the church, I'm doing all these amazing things for the Lord, I'm leading. At that point in time we had 120 life groups and so I'm leading 120 life group leaders. There's thousands of people.Tony : 10:13

Everyone is so excited about what God is doing through discipleship in the church and there was one particular individual, a staff member, and her and I just became really close and we're working on the mission together. We're working on the mission together. My wife is not supporting me. From my perspective, you know, in hindsight now I can see that that's not actually the case, but in the moment you couldn't convince me that my wife was being supportive of what God had called me to. So look at this perfect storm kind of forming A guy who's taken his identity and he's put it all in his work, a wife who's really struggling with three young kids One of them still even has the new car smell and then a co-worker who I become inappropriately close to and it led me right into an emotional affair and it almost cost me my marriage.Margie: 11:07

Yeah, that was. My next question is because I think you're still married to the same person, right? Yes, yeah.Tony : 11:18

And honestly, there was another pastor on the team when I was in the midst of this emotional affair who saved my life and it was probably the bravest thing that anyone's ever done for me.Tony : 11:33

And one thing that the Methodist church has always been really good about is encouraging community. So as I was becoming a pastor, I had this kind of group of guys, guy pastors, who I was close with. Well, one of them had become especially close, a dear friend of mine, james Keith Posey, and James Keith and I were in his office and I felt God kind of compel me to tell him what was going on. And I knew what I was doing was wrong, was sinful, because there's nothing in God's word that would ever indicate that God wants me to go against my marital vows, even though in my head I can justify it Like hey, I hadn't touched her. Like you know, we were texting all the time, we were calling all the time, but for the most part I blamed it all on the work of the Lord and even though that was an inaccurate description of what I was doing, right, you can't live in sin and do God's work.Margie: 12:29

And blame Jesus for it.Tony : 12:31

right yeah, right yeah and so james keith, my dear friend, I said, hey, I want you to know that I'm. I've got a bad situation going on with this girl, like I'm not sure what I'm gonna do. I need to end it, but I'm just having a really hard time and we work together and man, she's just really. She's really a nice human, you know and, and I enjoy being around her and she brings me joy and like all these kind of lies that I had told myself. And he looked at me, deadpan, and he said, tony, I'm going to help you. And I was like, great, you're going to go talk to her and let her know that we can't be friends anymore. And he said, no, if you don't tell your wife today, I'm going to tell her tomorrow.Margie: 13:19

Wow, that did take courage, definitely, and he was definitely a good friend to you. Maybe it didn't feel like it exactly at that moment, but he was definitely a good friend to you.Tony : 13:32

Yeah, the thing is is it's oftentimes in the moment. It's hard to see that my judgment couldn't be trusted at the time, and I would say this to any pastor that's listening when you're in the midst of burnout, when you're in the midst of a downward spiral, the person in the mirror is not someone whose advice can be taken seriously, because if you can't see God clearly, you surely cannot see the situation clearly. And that's also why I think, when God designed us, we were never designed to do ministry alone. That following Jesus, as I like to say, is a team sport.Margie: 14:21

Hey, Margie Bryce here and I have something free for you.Margie: 14:23

If you are unsure of what your mindset is when it comes to self-care, if you know you should do self-care but you're just not sure how to get that rolling, how to get started, I have a free ebook for you and it is about radical self care and it will get you started thinking about it and has lots of helpful information. Actually, what it is, more than anything else, is a journal style kind of piece that will help you work through the process of self evaluation so you get a sense of where you are with self care. So, to get this free ebook, I'm going to put a link in the show notes and you can access it from there and it can help you get started on the self care that you know you should be doing anyway and get you started maybe on taking some definitive action to ensure that you have the sustainability necessary to go the distance with God, with God. So your burnout led you into a vulnerability and a situation that you then had to find a way out of. Talk to us some about that.Tony : 15:51

Yeah, the reality is the burnout had just taken me off the rails, and so that night I went home and told my wife what was going on, and the next day we made a plan to go in and tell the senior pastor. I was an associate pastor at the time and we had to confess to the senior pastor what was going on, and by God's grace and his grace I didn't get fired, because certainly it would have been within his rights. I was in a sinful, inappropriate relationship, even though we hadn't touched each other physically, emotionally we were pretty well intertwined. And then the next year of my life was spent digging out of burnout and digging out of the sin and digging into creating new rhythms and guardrails that would give me the ability to do God's work in a healthy way.Margie: 16:44

And talk to us some about some of what that entailed the digging out.Tony : 16:50

Lots of marriage counseling, lots of marriage counseling, lots of my own counseling. I'm now, gosh, almost 10 years removed from that and I still see a counselor once a month, even if even if I don't have anything urgent to talk about, I treat it like an oil change. The other thing is is marriage counseling, personal counseling and then marriage retreats. So we really needed to begin to reform the foundation of our marriage at that point in time, 10, 10 and a half, almost 11 years in, so that was an important part of the healing process for us is creating new ideas, new rhythms, new boundaries on, and what that would look like.Tony : 17:38

You know, I don't think anyone wakes up one day and says, man, I want to fall into burnout, or when, I want to fall into sin, or I want to fall into a place that could potentially ruin my ministry. What ends up happening is is we get out of the disciplines that keep us in a healthy place, and so discipline, you know, as the Hebrews reminds us, never feels pleasant at the time I think this is Hebrews 12, but it levels the path in front of us, and so oftentimes we feel like I felt like that I was in burnout because the path wasn't level. I was going up a hill that I couldn't get my footing on, and discipline is one of the ways that I really believe that creates a level path.Margie: 18:23

So how would you say that that experience informs how you do ministry today?Tony : 18:31

I would say that everything is done differently now because of that experience, and so I have different guardrails, I have different rules about how I'm close with people of the opposite sex. I have rules about my personal devotions. I have rules about, like, how I approach the word and prayer and, just honestly, the importance of ministry in general. When you risk losing your entire family, ministry doesn't seem that important and I think, by God's grace, I've been able to keep that perspective over the years. Now I also have a really strict kind of rule of life, and I borrowed this from Pete Scazzaro Emotionally Healthy, spiritually. I'm sure you're familiar with it.Tony : 19:14

It's that rule of life has really helped formed my practices. So I also learned that don't negotiate on your schedule when you're feeling rather emotional, right? When you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. In the recovery world we call that halt right. So don't make a decision about ministry when you're hungry, angry, lonely or tired.Margie: 19:37

Right, well, say, can you go back? Let's circle back for just a second for our listeners that may not be aware or in touch with the Pete Scazzaro rule of life.Tony : 19:50

Yeah, it's kind of this idea that we create boundaries for the things that we value and are important for us. So the rule of life is like hey, I have a rule around work, I have a rule around physical, I have a rule around spiritual and emotional, and then I have a rule around my family. So one of the things in my rule of life is that I won't work more than three nights a week. So, no matter what, I don't work more than three nights a week. I go to the gym three to five times a week, I go to my therapist once a month, I do devotionals every day and I pray over my wife every night.Margie: 20:28

Nice, nice. What would you say then to our listeners? That is maybe a warning sign that burnout is in the process, in the making. Can you offer us any identifiers of that? Or times that okay, if this is going down, if I'm feeling this way, if I'm looking at life this way?Tony : 20:59

this way, if I'm looking at life this way, I'm probably heading down, not the best path. Yeah, I would say that when your identity becomes something that you think that you can strive after, right. So for me, burnout is often goes hand in glove with striving. So if I think that I can chase down my identity, right, If my identity is my work, if my identity is any of those things, then I know that I'm already in a really bad place, you know. And that bad place is not going to, it's going to spiral me out of control eventually. So I would tell you to pause, take a look around, ask yourself have you become your job? And if the answer is yes, you're on a one-way path to burnout.Margie: 21:42

Right, right, and technically speaking, you know, as ministry leaders it's not really a job per se, but it's very easy to get caught up in that. But it's a vocation and a calling, and nowhere in scripture do we see Jesus. It says Jesus is booked like a lunatic to Bethany. I mean, you just don't see that kind of thing we have in North American Christianity. I'll speak to that point that we are the ones that tend to produce the type A overdriven nickels. Noses are the things that matter and my identity is tied to my job performance. Right, and ministry doesn't function like that. Yet the challenge is majority of churches are 75 or fewer people in North America right now, unless you have the fortune of living down the street from Omega, something which, for the smaller church pastors, can be a challenge and a pressure for them to do more and more and more and more.Tony : 22:54

Yeah, performance-based rewards in the church world feel exactly the opposite of what Jesus would want.Margie: 23:02

Yeah, you caught the most fish, so you win the prize.Tony : 23:07

Well, I often tell pastors now when I talk to them about disciple-making if Jesus was in our churches today, we would fire him, because he was really rather exclusive in the people that he poured into. He was inclusive in serving everyone, but he was exclusive in who we spent time with and what that looks like. If you said, hey, for the next three years I'm only going to hang out with 12 guys and three of them are going to be extra close. Everybody else, I'm just going to kind of pop by and do this thing here, this thing there. I'm not going to go to any committee meetings and I'm not going to bow down to the cultural idols that already exist in the church. I'm pretty sure no one would survive.Margie: 23:49

According to the institutional, that's right. The church institutions, pressures, and and heaven forbid, you didn't even have to fill out any paperwork, did you? No reports, no annual reports and all that.Tony : 24:03

That's 100% right.Margie: 24:04

Yeah, the institutional aspect of the church has really put a whole other level of pressure on pastors. And then they start running according to that pressure, not according to the pace and load that Jesus asks us. And then the next thing you know, you're in a place that you never intended to be in. You're vulnerable in a way that you never expected to be. So that's some of what I've seen, heard and all that, and I've experienced burnout not exactly in the same way that you did, but burnout nonetheless where I was just no good to nobody for a period of time, where it's like don't even follow me to the corner store.Tony : 24:51

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's right. No one wakes up one day and says, man, I really want to get burned out. What we end up doing is we end up shortcutting the lordship of Jesus.Margie: 25:03

Oh, say more about that. That's a pretty big statement.Tony : 25:08

Well, it's kind of summarizing. What you were just saying is that if I think that I'm the savior of the church, then how can Jesus be lord of my life? If I think that everyone's here to see me and I have something to do with attendance, then how can Jesus be Lord of my life? But if we're brave enough to just focus on Jesus and keep Jesus in the heart of what we're trying to do, I think we'll end up seeing some pretty incredible results.Margie: 25:41

Right? Well, I'm going to close our session a little bit here, head towards that and just ask you what would be your top couple of things that you would want to say to a pastor who may be experiencing burnout or thinks they might be. What would you say to them right now?Tony : 26:00

I believe that every pastor needs a counselor. Whether that counselor is professional or if it's a coach or if it's just there, has to be someone where you can unload the crazy parts of your brain into. So that would be the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is no one from your church, no matter what church you serve, no matter how long you've been there, are going to be the people that stand beside you on your deathbed.Tony : 26:28

That's going to be your family, that's going to be your wife and kids, or your husband and kids, so don't prioritize strangers over the people who are going to walk with you for the rest of your life, and so those would probably be the areas where I would tell people to start. And then the last thing is something that I've noticed a lot is so many pastors I hear and talk to are so busy doing ministry they're not letting Jesus minister to them. Doing ministry, they're not letting Jesus minister to them. So find time in the stillness of the morning or the stillness of the night to be intentional with your devotional time to Jesus and make sure that you're looking at scripture. That's not related to something you have to preach on.Margie: 27:13

Yes, the two for one. Don't do the two for one well. Thank you so much, tony, for sharing with us, for being brave. I'm interviewing a few pastors that have come back from burnout during this month and I appreciate your vulnerability to share with us, so thank you so much for joining us well.Tony : 27:36

Thank you for having me and for the ministry you're doing to so many of our brothers and sisters in Christ all over the US.Margie: 27:42

Well, you're welcome and we'll talk again, I'm sure, soon and at some point. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

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I'm exploring the essence of what it means to be 'called' in this Transitional era for the Church. God is calling us to follow Jesus wholeheartedly into 'new things' which means emergence of ministries that are both within and outside the conventional framework. I share my insights into how these shifts demand a renewed focus on holistic self-care and call for a missional approach to ministry, tapping into the unique gifts of congregations to serve communities earnestly and effectively.

Join me as we navigate these transformative concepts together, seeking paths to ensure that we—ministry leaders—can nurture our spiritual and emotional health while passionately serving others in new ways.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Humility: once you think you have it, you actually don't. That's the challenge of this basic Christian virtue. Today's conversation is with Dr. Dennis Edwards, the brilliant mind behind the book Humility Illuminated: the biblical path back to Christian character, to help us tackle this complex virtue.

As your host, Margie Bryce, I get personal about my own experiences leading with humility. It's a journey sprinkled with trials and victories, from the difficulties of relying on the generosity of others to the constant comparisons with larger ministries that can cloud our perspective. Dr. Edwards and I shed light on the importance of being a welcoming community leader, one who listens earnestly and serves with the resources at hand. Our conversation journeys into the heart of humility in community service, valuing collaboration over competition and celebrating the unique gifts each congregation brings to the table.

CLICK HERE FOR THE BOOK ON HUMILITY.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Are you the leader who's constantly putting out fires and juggling the demands of ministry, barely pausing to catch your breath? Join me and Josh Curtiss for an honest conversation about recognizing the tell-tale signs of burnout, the necessity of self-awareness, and the dangers of becoming that crabby pastor nobody wants to invite for coffee.

The thrill of change is undeniable, but so is its ability to drain your batteries. We're tackling the need for balance—how to embrace change without sacrificing your well-being. As Josh and I share from our experiences, we discuss the importance of time off, the pitfalls of trying to revert to 'business as usual' post-pandemic, and the rejuvenating power of rest.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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This episode explores the bitter truth behind sugar's sweet facade. My guest, Troy Duell, host of the podcast Frontline Health and CEO of Centurion Labs, joins me, Margie Bryce, to expose sugar's addictive grip on our brains. Yikes.

The road to a healthier you is paved with sweet alternatives that don't compromise on taste. Discover the game-changing benefits of natural sweeteners that don't come packaged with other health concerns.

This is sure to be a sweeet episode.

Here is Troy's podcast: Frontline Health

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

This episode explores the bitter truth behind sugar's sweet facade. My guest, Troy Duell, host of the podcast Frontline Health and CEO of Centurion Labs, joins me, Margie Bryce, to expose sugar's addictive grip on our brains. Yikes.The road to a healthier you is paved with sweet alternatives that don't compromise on taste. Discover the game-changing benefits of natural sweeteners that don't come packaged with other health concerns.This is sure to be a sweeet episode.Here is Troy's podcast: Frontline Health

Support the Show.

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmailcom. That's crabbypastor at gmailcom. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.Margie: 2:10

Margie Bryce here, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, and this is going to be a real sweet episode. So you're going to have to tell all your friends and family to listen to this sweet episode, because we're going to be talking about sugar. You know, I grew up and I would have a bowl of Cheerios and milk and then at least one okay, maybe two teaspoons of sugar at least on there, Even when we picked blackberries. I remember also doing the same thing milk and a boatload of sugar. I mean just love, loved, loved that sugar. And that was well. I won't go into how many years ago that that was, but I think some of our mindset has changed on sugar, and I have here with me Tony Duell and and he is going to enlighten us on what might not be quite so sweet as we thought. So, Tony, can you introduce yourself to us?

Troy: 3:15

Absolutely. Thanks for having me, and I am with Centurion Labs, have been the CEO there since 2005 and have really been diving into the health space since probably the early 90s, where I got an education in sports medicine and exercise physiology and really just wanted to find out what things would really enhance the body's performance and make us better at what we do, and along the way, have been able to uncover a lot of products and a lot of dietary needs and issues that we may have that will help. If you address those things through your diet or through supplementation can really turn people's lives around and get that basis of diet and exercise down. And I think once you catch that base and you take ownership of that part, a lot of the other pieces fall in line. And that's really what we're about, what I'm about, and ultimately we want to have people take ownership of their health so they can elevate their health and life and have a better life because of it.

Margie: 4:27

Well, I was really interested in talking about sugar because I remember seeing and you can tell me whether this is internet made up or not, but I saw a scan. It was a CT scan of somebody whose brain was on sugar and then it was next to a CT scan of somebody whose brain was on I can't remember what drug if it was meth or crack or what and and at the moment I wasn't thinking about, is this real or not? But it was kind of horrifying. Is that? Is there anything to that?

Troy: 5:04

Unfortunately, there is a lot to it. So they have actually done studies to show that people who are on cocaine have the same part of the brain light up as we do when we eat sugar, which is why sugar is so addictive and why we want to eat more and more and more of it. So to the tune of American adults eating about 77 grams of sugar per day, when the American Heart Association recommends us just eating 24 grams a day for a woman and about 36 grams a day for men. So we are doubling that amount of sugar per day and need to really cut back on it per day and need to really cut back on it.

Troy: 5:49

Boy, okay, I was thinking you were going to tell me that maybe that was made up or something? No, unfortunately I couldn't tell you that. Okay, it releases the dopamine, just like cocaine does, and that's what lights up our pleasure center and we get super excited, which is why when you look at a pie, you start to really get excited and go, hmm, that looks really good.

Margie: 6:09

Yeah, yeah, I have a friend and she and I did Weight Watchers, you know, back in the day, and she would, I could eat, I could eat, and I still can't just eat. Like one Hershey kiss, you know, and and walk away and I keep them stashed in the either the refrigerator or the freezer, you know. I just, I don't know. It just seems like it's a bigger treat and it takes longer to melt. Maybe I don't know, but that's my drug of choice. And I said something to her about that. I said well, you know, you can just eat. You know, one Hershey kiss, I can't remember, it's maybe one or two points or something in the Weight Watcher realm. And she said I can't do that. She said, because it's like a drug to me, I will be off to the races if I do that.

Troy: 6:55

And that's why the other hidden secret is a lot of the foods that we eat whether that's the breads that we eat or any of the packaged foods they load up with sugar salad dressings. Those are some big ones and because they load it up with sugar, it leaves us wanting more and we want to go back to the, to the table, and keep eating.

Margie: 7:18

Well, what's creepy? What's creepy about what you're saying, though, is there was that whole surge of low fat, and, you know, because I was doing the label reading and stuff like that, and because my family is, you know, has a history with type two diabetes, and I was working at all costs to not go down that aisle, if I could help it I was reading a lot of labels, and I realized that, while they were taking fat out of certain things, they were putting sugar in. I guess you got to make it taste good somehow, but that was pretty horrifying, because then it sets us all up to go in a direction that we probably don't need to go.

Troy: 8:01

That's absolutely right, and it's not just the low-fat craze, but now you see the low-calorie or some of those other crazes that are out there, and really what's happening there is they may put artificial sweeteners in, or they may put what's called sugar alcohols in, and sugar alcohols in and of themselves are not terrible for our bodies.

Troy: 8:24

As a matter of fact, they could be found in some fruits from a natural standpoint, but they do have issues on the GI system. So you have a lot of people who, if they eat something that has sugar alcohols, it can really tear up your stomach and cause some serious issues because it doesn't break down. The stomach can't break it down with the bacteria that's there. Then on the other side, you may have some of the artificial sweeteners, and the artificial sweeteners they've actually compared and they would say that if you, if I, had to choose between taking a food with an artificial sweetener or a food with sugar, I would go with sugar every day, even though sugar is not good for you, because the artificial sweeteners also light up the same areas and they are 700 times sweeter than sugar, so it almost increases the addiction that much more, with other detrimental side effects along the way as well.

Margie: 9:19

So it lights up your brain. The same as regular sugar, but it sounds like they need way less of it to do that.

Troy: 9:28

You, you don't need as much, but what they're trying to do is light up that same pleasure center in order for you to crave that food and come back for it. So, but what they're finding is especially in diet sodas. We'll, we'll take that one, probably a good one, those diet sodas they have found, if they're consumed I can't remember what the number is, I think it's six per week or 12 per week, along those lines they have seen an increased and increased incidence of fatty liver in those patients. So it's bad for your liver because it's processing through there and you just have to be careful that you're not taking something that's bad for you and substituted, substituting something else that's even worse for you because you see that it's low calorie and you just have to be really cognizant of what you're taking into your body.

Margie: 10:22

So like, at the end of the day, you just got to come to the place where you say I just got to get off this roller coaster, Whether it is imitation sugars. And I remember way back in the day my mom used to sweeten her coffee with saccharin.Troy: 10:40

Oh yeah.

Margie: 10:41

And then that was bad. And then what came after saccharin? Oh yeah, and then that was bad, and then what came after saccharin?

Troy: 10:44

I can't remember whether saccharin splenda aspartame was, aspartame is like really not helpful at all.

Margie: 10:54

No, but now that it's like the names keep switching, so so, you know, I look at labels now and then I've got my phone and I'm Googling it to see if it really is a sugar. It looks like anything that ends in L-O-S-E lose. Maybe that should be a indicator. That's a helpful way.

Troy: 11:14

That's right. That's a helpful way to get it, but some of the more beneficial ones that you can lean towards that they have shown benefit from would be a stevia. So you can get stevia. What you have to watch for is a lot of those stevias are supplemented with sugar alcohols, like erythritol, which is probably one of the better ones, but you do have to watch to make sure you're not getting too much of those sugar alcohols. And then you can also have monk fruit not getting too much of those sugar alcohols, and then you can also have monk fruit. So stevia and monk fruit seem to be two of the better ones that are out there that you can bake with and do some sugar substitution with.

Troy: 11:52

So sugar erythritol or sugar alcohols, how much is too much say of sugar alcohol, Because I know that's got to be big with a lot of people that do keto related stuff right, it is, and typically they recommend about 15, I believe it's 15 grams a day that they're saying you don't want to get over 15 milligrams per day, that you don't wanna go over, so and it doesn't take a lot to really sweeten something up with those sugar alcohols which, by the way, it's neither sugar nor is it alcohol. It's actually a carbohydrate that they have broken down to bring out the sweetness. And the strange thing with those is they use it in a lot of the processed foods and cookies and other things to help sweeten it. But you can't buy it over the counter or at a grocery store for us to use in breads or cookies or anything else at home. So I'm not real sure how they use it in that baking realm, but they're able to use it in the baking realm, whereas we cannot use that on a regular basis.

Margie: 12:56

But you can buy stevia.

Troy: 12:58

You can buy stevia, you can buy monk fruit.

Margie: 13:00

Monk fruit, what is that?

Troy: 13:02

What is?

Margie: 13:03

Monk fruit.

Troy: 13:04

Monk fruit is actually, it's just a fruit called monk fruit and they take it out and pull out the sugars from it and then dry it up and then you can use it. They actually have coconut sugar that you can use as well. That seems to be. It has a little bit more benefit than regular sugar. It has a little bit more benefit than regular sugar, and the reason some of those have a better turn is if it's monk fruit you're getting more than just the sugar. The stevia comes from leaves that they're grinding up, so you get a little bit more sweetness from that. And regular sugar if you're doing teaspoons of sugar really has no vitamins. It has no nutritional value at all, whereas stevia actually has some value to it and monk fruit does as well.

Troy: 13:51

And you know, don't confuse fruits and vegetables with sugar. While they have sugar, they also have the fiber that goes along with it. So if you eat an apple or an orange and you're eating it because of that fiber, it's filling up your stomach and you're able to feel full after you eat it, whereas sugar you don't get that filling effect. So if you eat something that's sweet and it doesn't have the natural pieces that go with it, then that's what makes you hungry and start to crave more. And it's still lighting up that pleasure center.

Margie: 14:26

Yeah, yeah, because I know this is probably something I picked up in that and we watch around there is that if you're hungry, you know you should go for a protein or maybe even some kind of a fat will turn that off. But if you start doing the simple carbs, there you go, you're off to the races now because you know, like, whether they say one Oreo is not enough. You know you're just off to the races and you have to know that about yourself to stop. I mean, it's difficult to stop yourself.

Troy: 15:03

It is very difficult and I think it takes a lot of discipline. And most of that discipline I think you can really step up when you're in the grocery store, so making sure that you're shopping correctly, so then when you come home you're not tempted by those things, or setting yourself up with the discipline of what you said of one a day or maybe even just one day a week where you say, okay, I'm going to cheat and have my sugar this one day a week and kind of build it that way. But you know, we had talked earlier about some of those other substitutes that we see, like agave or honey or molasses.

Margie: 15:42

Yeah, that's the. So this is where there is, I think, some confusion is because those, some of them, seem to be natural, but you know, at the end of the day, so is sugar, it's plant plant like sugar cane. Right, that's right.

Troy: 15:58

Yep, so, and they still. If you take molasses or honey or agave, they still spike your sugar levels. So what you're trying to do is find something that's not going to spike your sugar levels, which also will spike that dopamine release in your brain. And we know that even though those are natural and they're still good in small doses, it's causing that same thing. So you've got to be careful. Just because it's natural, like you say, you still have to be careful and understand that those particular things can cause just as much havoc on our bodies as taking just regular sugar, teaspoons of sugar.

Margie: 16:41

So what kind of havoc does it wreak on our bodies?

Troy: 16:45

Sugar is a menacing piece. So we know that sugar is related to inflammation. So anybody who has inflammation in their joints it is a big precursor to that. We know that it has cardiovascular issues. That can happen and we also they've now called memory loss or Alzheimer's. Some people call that type three diabetes because sugar is part of the process with that as well. So memory loss, Alzheimer's, all those things is all linked to sugar and they're seeing more and more of a correlation between somebody's diet and their sugar intake and the increased incidence of Alzheimer's later on in life.

Margie: 17:35

Well, that ought to scare a few of us straight right.

Troy: 17:38

It should, it should.

Margie: 17:40

It's like well, I'm going back to double check my labels and stuff. You know, I know I will tend towards Stevia. They've got these lovely little drops at Whole Foods Market. Just one or two drops in your coffee and it's just a little bit, but it's all Stevia and it's all. You know. It doesn't feel criminal.

Troy: 18:00

Let's say that you get sweetness without the calories and without the bad side effects, so that's definitely key.

Margie: 18:11

Well, I remember years ago I used to drink coffee. Well, I still drink coffee, but I would put two teaspoons of sugar. Yeah, it was always at two teaspoons, you know, I don't even know how many grams or a teaspoon here, but I would put two teaspoons in and then milk, you know, and I decided I was going to try to rear off and I did it very slowly, I think I did the sugar first and so I kept putting creamer in. But I would go okay, today, instead of two teaspoons I'm going to do one and three quarters. I mean, it was a real slow baby step process to wean yourself off and to give yourself time to learn to like the coffee with less sugar in it. I mean, is that how we get ourselves off sugar?

Troy: 19:05

I think that is one of the best ways you can do that, which is just come up with a plan. Don't go cold Turkey unless you've. You've got that personality type that can, which few people can do that but certainly start to wean yourself off, because your taste buds will adjust to it and the less sugar you take in, the less you're going to crave, whether that's in your salad dressings or your meals or breads or whatever, and you'll begin to notice the amount of sugar or the sugar levels that are in each of those foods that you eat. So the more you can curb the addition of sugar, then it's going to help decrease all the other sugars that are there as well.

Margie: 19:46

So what does sugar do to your heart?

Troy: 19:51

Well, they have linked it to high blood pressure, they've linked it to stroke and they've linked it to just cholesterol. I'm trying to think of the other things that are there. So those are the main ones that you see. So you, you get increases in blood pressure increases and just overall heart disease that you may end up having. So those are the main things that you get.

Margie: 20:17

So the idea of like never having ever a piece of chocolate cake in your entire life is just Well, I can't even go there, because if I tell myself I am never going to, ever, that's it. You know that that doesn't help me out at all. But what are some real practical ways that we can? First steps, let's say, to reducing our sugar.Troy: 20:42

Yeah, I think first steps are start to really pay attention to the labels that you're eating with and see if they're adding more sugar than you need.

Margie: 20:49

So it says that on the label added sugar, doesn't it?

Troy: 20:53

It does. So if you're looking for that 24 grams a day, then start. Just just take a survey of all the foods that you're eating and all the labels and see how close you're getting. You know, probably the number one thing you can do is cut back on, or most people can do is cut back on their sodas, their diet sodas, cut back on those and then find ways to substitute the sugar. Try monk fruit, try stevia in your if you're doing homemade cakes or pies or whatever and see if you can change the way that you're doing your diet. That's one way to certainly step in and do those things.

Troy: 21:35

And then I think, recognizing that if you can satisfy that sweet tooth by picking up more fruits and vegetables and use that as a substitute when you start to crave those sweets, that's a great way to do it. And what I have seen be most successful is maybe for six days of the week you substitute with those fruits and those vegetables and then you know that on Saturday or Sunday you're coming up and you can have a slice of cake or you can reward yourself with a bowl of ice cream, whatever it is, but you don't make it a habit. And if you just cut back that way. Those are easy, practical ways that you can begin to get that under control. And if one day a week is too much or too hard, then say I'm going to reward myself two days a week and just go three days on, and then one day off and three days on again. So find out what works for you and then build up, and as you're doing that, your cravings for the sugar will start to dissipate and it'll get easier and easier over time.

Margie: 22:47

So this is just purely an opinion kind of question. Why do you think that sugar is not discussed as in this fashion in many circles?

Troy: 23:02

Well, it's probably because we all like it so much, and because we like it, we don't want to really understand why something that tastes so good may be so bad for us.

Troy: 23:16

And we have not done a good job as a society or culture to come in and say you know what moderation is where we need to be with most things. We are not a moderation type culture. We're either all in or we're all out in most things in our culture, and I think that falls in line with our diet as well, and we have not done a good job of training young kids on how what you eat really affects you and an understanding that our bodies were designed to operate in a certain way. And just like your car has to operate on certain fuels and certain oils and other things, our bodies were designed the same way. And until we get an understanding and a better understanding of how our body operates the best, I think we'll continue to kind of fall in that trap. But it's it truly is just a kind of a change in mindset of I'm not eating to live. Well, I eat to live instead of living to eat.

Margie: 24:26

Yeah, yeah, well I. I have one last question about liver health and how sugar. You mentioned fatty liver. I don't even know what that is exactly.

Troy: 24:40

What fatty liver is.

Troy: 24:42

Basically, if you have ever heard somebody who was suffering from alcoholism and they you hear about cirrhosis of the liver or something along those lines, that's what a fatty liver is. It's just it just becomes a diseased liver, and sugar does the same thing. And it really kind of makes sense that if somebody who's suffering from alcoholism has a diseased liver, most alcohol turns straight to sugar when it gets into the body. So sugar is doing the same thing it's going through the liver and it's causing your liver just to kind of get to be a blob and not function the way it's supposed to, which is to filter out all the bad things that we intake, whether through our environment or through our diet. And you know, they just continue to do study after study that show where sugar is increasing the risk of that fatty liver piece, which then can increase the risk of liver cancer or other liver diseases that are associated with it.

Margie: 25:47

Okay, okay. Well, is there anything that we have not covered, then, about sugar and the challenges we have with that?Troy: 26:00

I don't think so, you know. I think the biggest thing for us to understand is that sugar is definitely one of those things that we will crave. The more we eat it, the more you will crave it. It is just like an addiction crave the more we eat it, the more you will crave it. It is just like an addiction. So if you were somebody who did cocaine once and then you do it twice, you just want to keep going and going and going. So the goal is start to wean yourself off, like you said earlier, and really start to take ownership of that piece of your health. And if you can do that, you have a much better chance of reducing obviously obesity, obviously diabetes, but then also understanding that you're reducing chances of cardiovascular illness and effects, you're reducing the chance of Alzheimer's and dementia. So you have a much greater step forward in your health and longevity if you just take this one little piece and begin to take it off of off the table and reduce the amount of sugar that you take in.

Margie: 27:01

Okay, and remind us about what the recommended daily sugar intake is for men and women.

Troy: 27:08

For women it's about 24 grams per day, and for men it's about 24 grams per day, and for men it's about 36 grams per day and, unfortunately, our average is about 77 grams as adults and, believe it or not, it's about 81 grams for kids. So, yeah, we as parents have a much larger task in front of us because we have to control ourselves, but we also have to control our kids and really teach them what a healthy diet looks like and what discipline looks like when it comes to a diet.

Margie: 27:41

And the better sweeteners would be monk fruit stevia and then, if you're going to dabble, erythritol.

Troy: 27:48

Yeah, so erythritol would be one of the better sugar alcohols that are out there. It doesn't seem to have as much issues on the GI side effects. But you'll see, um, malitol is usually in like chewing gums and things like that, so you may see some of those and you'll see it in a lot of the sugar-free ice creams. You'll see the malitol and that's why a lot of people, after they eat sugar-free ice cream, they complain about being bloated or they just don't feel right, and that's because your body's not able to break down their sugar alcohol. So be careful of that. But coconut sugar, stevia and monk fruit would be the three that I would probably recommend would be the three that I would probably recommend.

Margie: 28:35

And what about? You know, just the? You see that on tables in the restaurant sugar in the raw. You know it's just a little brown packet. That's still sugar, right.

Troy: 28:41

It is still sugar and still something you need to be careful of and wary of, because anytime you're adding it that's a bad thing. But the biggest issue is again like we talked about earlier, which is looking at your salad dressings, looking at your ketchup, looking at your different tomato sauces, your pasta dishes and that's where most of those sugars add up, and then, especially in the sodas and diet drinks.

Margie: 29:07

So do you know how many grams are in a teaspoon? I'd have to maybe go Google that. How many grams of grams are in a teaspoon I'd have to maybe go Google that.

Troy: 29:13

How many grams of sugar are in a teaspoon?

Margie: 29:15

In a teaspoon of sugar.Troy: 29:17

I just went totally blank, but I think it's nine milligrams of there are nine calories per teaspoon and I just went totally blank, so I'm sorry.

Margie: 29:29

Well, that's okay, that's okay, I'm sure we can Google it and I'll put it in the show notes. How many it's just so I know because, as I'm thinking back to my bowl of Cheerios with two teaspoons of sugar and just being a kid and there's probably some sugar in the milk as well there is. That's why I've shifted to like unsweetened almond milk instead, you know, just to try to make a better choice. I don't always make. Please, audience, do not get the idea that I always make the best choice. I'm working, it's a work in progress. You know, you can't, you can't, I don't know. I couldn't have stopped cold turkey with the coffee and the sugar in the coffee. I have to kind of wean myself off and, you know, make friends with the new taste before I proceed. So I definitely don't do it all right. But it really is something I think we need to consider, we need to look at and certainly, you know, alzheimer's is now being plopped in the mix. You know, jeepers.

Margie: 30:32

And that is something we should think about. So thank you so much, Troy, for having this conversation, for giving us that education on sugar. Thank you.

Troy: 30:45

Thanks, Margie, I appreciate it.

Margie: 30:49

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website Margie Bryce dot com that's B-R-Y-C-E Margie Bryce dot com, and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebricecom it's on the home page of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 32:27

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook I make stained glass as part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the in the show notes cup of coffee thing in the show notes.

Margie: 33:15

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know so that you don't become the Crabby pastor.

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Discover the power of perspective in this transformative discussion with Kristen Humiston, as we peel back the layers of trauma experienced within the church. Together, we challenge the conventional approach of questioning what's wrong with individuals, pivoting instead to exploring the pivotal events that have shaped them.

We dissect the crucial role of self-care for pastors, emphasizing the necessity for leaders to be equipped with empathy and insight—to not only heal others effectively but to sustain their own spiritual journey.

This leads our conversation to include lament: an undervalued treasure in evangelical circles. This potent path helps us heal from deep-seated pain.

Join us for an episode that promises to leave you with an enriched understanding and tangible resources to support the unseen battles within your congregation.

Connect with Kristen by clicking HERE.

Support the Show.

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

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Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

View Details

Discover the power of perspective in this transformative discussion with Kristen Humiston, as we peel back the layers of trauma experienced within the church. Together, we challenge the conventional approach of questioning what's wrong with individuals, pivoting instead to exploring the pivotal events that have shaped them.We dissect the crucial role of self-care for pastors, emphasizing the necessity for leaders to be equipped with empathy and insight—to not only heal others effectively but to sustain their own spiritual journey.This leads our conversation to include lament: an undervalued treasure in evangelical circles. This potent path helps us heal from deep-seated pain.Join us for an episode that promises to leave you with an enriched understanding and tangible resources to support the unseen battles within your congregation.Connect with Kristen by clicking HERE.

Support the show

This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE.I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.Blessings on your journey!Margie

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

TranscriptMargie: 0:01

Hey, there it's Margie Bryce, your host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, where we talk about all things sustainability, whether it's sustainability in ministry, in your personal life and we acknowledge that the church is in a transitional time, so we hit topics there too that are going to stretch your mind and the way you lead, especially how you lead yourself, so that you don't become the crabby pastor. So how do the pieces of your life fit together? Do they fit together well and things are humming along just fine, or are there some pieces that are tight or absent or just not fitting the bill? This is your invitation to join me in my glass workshop for a video series, where I am going to do a stained glass project while I talk to you about sustainability and building sustainability into your heart and into your life. So I am going to be doing my art, which is a form of self-care, and I'm going to invite you into that space with me and I'm going to chat. I'm going to chat about self-care and I'm going to show you how I create, and there's a nifty, nifty analogy Stained glass seems to be a very good metaphor for what I want to talk about, so I'd love for you to join me to do that. To opt in, I'll need you to email me at crabbypastor at gmail dot com. That's crabbypastor at gmail dot com. So you won't want to miss this. You definitely won't want to miss this. So make a plan to join me in the glass workshop.

Margie: 2:12

Welcome to part two of our discussion on trauma. I am here with Kristen Humiston again and we got to and through in the last episode a good discussion about trauma and what it is exactly, and we kind of, near the end, got to the place where the question was what is wrong with these people? And you know, I think as pastors, many of us ask that question why does it seem like and this was captured in Janyne McConaughey's book Trauma in the Pews where there's a faction of any congregation where it seems like they just grab hold of the gospel and they just run with it? And then you've got this other segment where sometimes you kind of wonder well, okay, in all honesty, there were days and times that I wondered if they were crash test dummies not meaning dummy people like dummies but that they were looking at me like that from the before or they would.

Margie: 3:09

It would look like or feel like that what I was delivering in sermons and stuff was just casually bouncing off of people, you know, and so you have to say well, what's wrong with these sheep, what is wrong with them? To say is well, what's wrong with these sheep, what is wrong with them? And I think Janyne correctly identifies and we've talked some here, Kristen, about trauma and how it impacts people and their abilities to receive the gospel, so. But I know that you have a bit of a pushback and that I'm good with that. I like that. It makes for a fun interview for sure, for sure, with my question what is wrong with them? So I'm going to let you have at that.

Kristen: 3:54

Yeah, thank you, Margie, thanks for having me back, and it's always a delight and a pleasure to be able to talk with ministry leaders about trauma and healing and like, where does the church fit in to that? Because the church should be leading the way. And before you and I jumped on and hit record, we were talking about how, historically, there have been times where the church has led the way in bringing healing work to people's practical lives. Right that I'm moving into professional social work, and social work was born out the movement of Christians seeing people who were hurting and oppressed and needing food and clothing and meeting those needs, and so, historically, the church has a part of it that has provided healing.

Kristen: 4:48

There's another dark side to Christianity and the church Historically. We don't need to go into that today, but how do we bring healing? And again, that is like Jesus announced his ministry by echoing the words from Isaiah 61. I have come to set the captives free, to heal the broken hearted, and so this is his heart, and we are called to be his ambassadors, right To bring his heart to the world around us. So how do we do that? And your question, what is wrong with them, like, how can we fix them. That is a common question and frustration in ministry. I was speaking with a friend the other day and we just kind of said like you know, people, people and we are people. Right, we are people, we people too, we people too. And the the better question to ask in those moments of frustration really is what has happened to them, not as what is wrong with them, but what has happened to them?

Margie: 5:59

Yeah, I mean, I think we would all agree and we've said I mean, I know ministry leaders have said, you know, ministry would be great, you know, if it wasn't for the people but ministry is the people and they were all broken. It's easy to say that we're all broken. The truth of the reality of that is that there's healing to be done. There's work to be done, whether it's growing your understanding of why I do the things I do, or, as ministry leaders, you know, oh, why is it that every time that congregant walks in the room I kind of want to smote him, or something like that? You know what I'm saying. There's, there's reasons that we react and respond, and sometimes it is out of our brokenness.

Kristen: 6:55

Yeah, we all have stories, Right, and that's why I'm a big proponent and I love what you're doing when, with that focus on-care, we have to be intentionally working on our own care so that we're serving out of a place that has capacity to hold some of the brokenness of other people that is going to be present.

Kristen: 7:21

It's a heavy job to walk through ministry life and respond to crises, respond to broken marriages, all of the things that we have to carry which that doesn't even like. Those are just two of them, right, I have a big, long list that we could list off. And if we're not in a place where we're working on our healing, taking Sabbath rest, making sure that we're protecting ourselves from burnout, taking care of our own personal marriage or relationships, if you're not married like whatever that looks like if we're not doing healthy practices on a regular basis, we are just simply not going to have the energy, the compassion you know that's needed to really hold space well for the hurting, and that's actually our calling. So we have to be caring for ourselves well first, so that we have something to care well for others first, so that we have something to care well for others.

Margie: 8:34

Sure, and I think Jesus said it this way love your neighbor as yourself. So if you aren't caring for yourself as a mere mortal, as someone who understands I have limitations, you know, as a human being, if I'm not loving myself and being a good steward with the body and the temperament and the mindset and all of that, then how well am I equipped to care for others and kind of in the? If you take that then away from the individual focus for a moment and go to the congregational level, how well are we as a congregation able to show compassion to those around us? Because, cause, you know, we frankly run out of gas and I don't know, I get cranky when I run out of gas. I just do. It isn't hard to imagine, I guess, but but yeah, I can't be the only one out here that gets cranky and crabby.

Kristen: 9:39

Well, I think I think about when, as a parent, I six children and so I have to remember that acronym FALT right Hungry, angry, lonely, tired, like, are my kids one of these things? Because if they are, or maybe they're more than one of those things at the time, then their meltdown makes sense. And that's what we mean when we shift that question from what is wrong with them to what happened to them or what is happening with them now, like there's a reason for the behavior, whether it's a child or an adult. Something is underneath the behavior, and what we often do in ministry and in the church world is we just say sin and we slap it on there and we say, well, if you'd get rid of that sin issue, then everything would be fine. And it looks at it a little bit too simplistically. Sin is most certainly involved, but it also can be that the behavior is a result of someone else's sin on us and not our own.

Margie: 10:52

And that is a hard place, having to deal with someone else's sin on us, whether it leaves you feeling rejected or angry or any of any of those things and trying to navigate through that. But you're right, sin is kind of a sometimes a simplistic, would you say that sin might be a symptom of some trauma Not in all cases, but in some.

Kristen: 11:20

It will. Sin will play a part. Okay, Right, trauma entered the world when Adam and Eve fell. That was the moment where everything changed and I cannot think of a more traumatic moment. If we're going to look at an event that I cannot think of a more traumatic moment. Right, to go from a perfect world, no fear, no doubt, no guilt, no shame, complete free communication with God. He came and he went, he came and he went and there was no doubt of his love. There was no doubt of love and connection between Adam and Eve. And then, in that moment, they knew and they hid. So that first moment of experiencing shame, when sin entered the world. Again, trauma is really the impact of events on us, but when we're thinking about an event that ushered in trauma, there is no greater event in history that was more traumatic to go from a perfect world to a completely imperfect world.

Margie: 12:43

And it changed everything, sure, sure and basically they got evicted because, yeah, if you think about it, where you know well, you're not living here anymore and I've done some reading where it was brought out that you know God put that boundary there and you say, oh well, that's not very nice, but the truth of the matter is, if the boundary hadn't been there, we would have been back at the apple tree again anyway. Right. Because, that's who we are right, because that's who we are.

Kristen: 13:18

but basically they had to deal with life under very different terms and what, uh, what they were used to, yeah, and what was intended? Right, what was intended?

Margie: 13:26

yeah for sure. So. So let's, let's go to then a solution with this and that that has to do with some healing and how trauma actually gives us an opportunity, if you want to. Everybody says I don't have any trauma. I'm like we just all went through group trauma the whole planet did with with covid right, and I think we're still a little wiggy from that. I don't know whether how that wears off over time, but talk to us some about healing and the opportunity for that with the church?

Kristen: 14:03

yeah, absolutely so. I think the bible gives us two really clear there's more but two that I wanted to talk about ways that we have to heal. God given created ways to heal, and the first is that we must express our pain, and in America, or Western Christianity especially, we are not taught this. We have been taught repeatedly which we mentioned a little bit before that emotions are bad, we need to just carry on. We focus on verses such as forgetting what's behind, I press forward towards the prize, and we use other verses, just kind of pick and choose verses that imply that we shouldn't ever think about, reflect on or express our emotions and pain, and that's led to tremendous anxiety, depression, physical symptoms, because our bodies were not meant to carry that kind of pain.

Kristen: 15:07

And so lamentations, laments throughout Proverbs, laments throughout Psalms and Lamentations and other places where we see it with the prophets, laments are our gift to learn and to be able to practice expressing our pain. So commonly I will walk women and men that I'm working with through the process of how to lament, and that's something that we don't do as a church, community or body. Some denominations or some traditions Christian traditions do that more than others, but by and large, the evangelical church does not practice lamenting. The evangelical church does not practice lamenting In. You know, in my experience and what I've seen, that it's really left to maybe preach on maybe one Sunday a year.

Margie: 16:06

Although I can't.

Kristen: 16:07

This is a Sunday Right Like I can't, and some Christian traditions have Sundays and seasons where they focus on that. We just went through like Lent, and some really use that season as an opportunity to lament, and that's our gift. That's our gift from God well, yeah, I think about.

Margie: 16:27

one of my favorite passages is is where Elijah is saying I've had Lord, I am ready to just die, just kill me now. I'm the only one left and that cares about what you care about. And that wasn't factually correct. But I still like the fact that he just kind of whines somewhere and you know you kind of whine and own it and say this is what the harm that has been done to me and what's the value then in expressing that.

Kristen: 17:02

It gets it out so that we have to move through our pain and trauma and it will have a place where it can be kind of filed away. Events become neutral rather than continuing to affect our physiological states, even so, our nervous system, and so when we lament and we can leave it at the feet of christ, then he can carry it, and that's what the cross was about. That Jesus carried. We focus a lot on oh, I'm a sinner, and so Jesus carried my sins. Jesus carried the sins of your abuser. Jesus carried the sins of the one who has deeply rejected you, and so who else can I go to? God is the only one who can carry that kind of pain.

Margie: 18:04

So one thing you would say then is somehow to have and I want to say avenue, have a way for lament, for pain to be expressed, maybe more than once a year, whether it is, you know, in the corporate worship or whether there's other places within your church where that is acceptable practice. Because I'm, like you know, you just quoted my life verse. Thank you very much. I press on towards the'm. Like you know, you just quoted my life first. Thank you very much. I press on towards the goal and you know, and I think there are times and places that I have just moved past pain and felt like, as long as I can put one foot in front of the other, I'm good to go, not realizing that it is something weighing you down that does have an impact. Did you say you had a second verse?

Kristen: 19:00

I mean laments are I'm not quite sure.

Kristen: 19:03

Laments are all throughout Psalms right, so I love Psalm 6,. 6 is a beautiful. David says my eyes waste away for the grief, Like my couch is drenched in tears. Right. Psalm 13, psalm 22, 42. These are some laments. He laments and he says my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And we're so afraid of saying things like that? We think that, like I don't know where God's gonna, you know might us for doing that. And yet we have not just David, but we have other people as well, throughout scripture that express that idea. Jesus himself expressed that. Right If we took it and we put it in a sentence format instead, instead of a question my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? What is David's complaint?

Margie: 20:00

He's been forgotten.Kristen: 20:01

Yeah, god has abandoned me. This is what David's saying. Most of us would be afraid of saying that out loud.

Margie: 20:10

Yeah.

Kristen: 20:11

Yet we have examples in scripture that show us it's okay to express that loud, yeah, yeah. We have examples in scripture that show us it's okay to express that.

Margie: 20:17

Right, right. Well, we're all about the happy, happy, happy, absolutely, and and you want, you want joy. But if there is a faction group of people smattered throughout your congregation that are just you know, and I'm thinking back to, oh, this is quite a few years ago, and there was a church that we visited and they were heavy into it, was charismatic. This is not you know, and I'm not saying anything negative about charismatic folk, but it happened to be a charismatic church and, yeah, I'm not saying anything negative about charismatic folk, but it happened to be a charismatic church and they happened to be heavily engaged in some amazing praise and worship stuff. But after you'd gone for three or four weeks, I was like man, I don't know if I can rally every week to this. You know, let me take a break, you know, come in and go out or something, because it just was. It's not the reality that we live down here.

Kristen: 21:22

Right, right, and we need both. I mean, ecclesiastes 3 talks about there's a time for mourning and weeping and there's time for dancing and joy. So I think we just need to learn and practice moving through our emotions a little more fluidly, embracing seasons of joy, embracing seasons of mourning, and comforting one another, being okay, becoming comfortable with other people, not being okay Right, it's okay to not be okay. I mean, that's a saying right now, but when I think about Ecclesiastes, it covers the breadth of our human experiences. And we have death. That's painful. I have to have a way to express how painful that is. It's part of my human experience. There's no reason to always stay in this happy, happy place.

Kristen: 22:18

And what's really neat about a lament? The primary part is a complaint about against God. I have this complaint and it eventually moves towards expressing what my need is. In Psalm 13, david says look on me and answer me Like, give light to my eyes. These are things I need. I need to hear from you. Who of us as humans hasn't said man, would God just tell me or show me or comfort me Like, would he not just show up? Right, all of us have. So I don't know why we feel we need to deny our humanity so much? And he moves, and that's what a lament does. Eventually we move to that process of man. I trust in your unfailing love, and that's what faith is. I have to cling to the character of God because I am not God, I do not have his mind and I do not understand him Right. And it's okay, I'm okay to admit I don't get God, I don't have the answers, and sometimes that's really frustrating, sometimes that's really wearisome, sometimes that's really painful, so so when you're moving through pain.

Margie: 23:38

You brought us through the lament, where you're going to identify what your issues are. You can even go to scripture and, you know, read about.

Margie: 23:47

David was in the pit of despair you know all of that, and then we just get to the place where we decide, because there's a cycle that David goes through. He has this complaint, and then, by the time you get to the end of the Psalm, he's back at yet God, you are God and I am not, which, personally, I'm very happy that I'm not God and that God is God. And is that a way, then, of moving through the pain?

Kristen: 24:17

Absolutely, absolutely, and I think you know I think about women's Bible studies or the typical retreat. It's very much like a you rah rah rally, and I was sitting with someone recently who had gone to a large women's event that had focused on lamenting, and throughout the weekend that's what the event did was walked, you know, hundreds of women through the process of lamenting so they could lay it down. And then what do we do as a body of believers? We rejoice together, right. We become one another's compassionate witnesses and we're able to hear harder stories and share our harder stories. We're able to experience humility and vulnerability Again, things that are pretty lost in most American churches, and then we can offer that belonging and safety to people, because it's okay to come and bring my painful story into the church Again and again. One of the biggest things I hear in my one-to-one work with people is I can't share this anywhere else and we are. We are being complicit in like inner death inside of people by not allowing people to bring their stories into the church walls.

Margie: 25:48

And then it will. You know. One thing that has just really been coming to me late is how can we challenge the church to bump it up in the compassion to others realm? How can we increase compassion for us?

Kristen: 26:09

I think, when I hear that, I go back to the question what happened to you? When we hear people's stories, how do we respond? As humans, we respond to story, and I don't know if you've ever had this experience, but I have, where I've totally made up some thing about a person, right, oh, they are so fill in the blank and I carry that belief around with me. And then maybe I carried around for a few years, right, maybe I carried around for many years. And then I find out something about them that they experienced or that had happened to them that I never knew, and I go, oh okay, well, that makes sense now. Now I understand why they fill in the blank.

Margie: 26:59

So if they were extra prickly and then you responded with maybe you were prickly back and then you responded with maybe you were prickly back, or maybe you just retreated or something. Any of those responses are less than loving. And maybe if we came at some things with gosh, are you okay? Yeah, what's going?

Kristen: 27:18

on what happened to you. What happened to you, yeah.

Margie: 27:21

That would be a different, different result, maybe

Kristen: 27:25

Yeah, and I like how you use that example, because let's use the word prickly there's a lot of people in churches that are prickly no Right, and my husband and I have a name that we would use for those people sometimes, and so it's the ones that you're like oh man, lord, just give me some more love, give me some more love for them. And when I think about it, when we've sat down with those people and started just asking questions like hey, tell us, like more about how you grew up, what was, what was your life like? What have been some of the highlights or the lowlights? Right, tell us more about you. I have always walked away from those conversations with greater compassion. So we need to make time for relationship of ministry and kind of how the system has set itself up, because leadership boards put a lot of demands on pastors with their time that are unrealistic and cannot be fulfilled and leaves very little time to make relationship with those that are actually in the congregation. So this is an everybody in the body of Christ job.

Kristen: 28:43

It is to connect with one another to learn another person's story? Right? And if we were all doing that? Because because often I also hear from ministry leaders no one cares about me? No one? Right? Because we just don't have a, a system or a body, a culture of caring for one another. So who's going to go first, right? Who's going to be the one that says you know what? I'm going to set it? I'm going to set aside one hour every month and just meet and connect with someone that maybe I already know. It doesn't need to be somebody new, but I don't really know their story and I'm just going to, I'm just going to hear their story. What if we spent 12 hours out of an entire year learning 12 different individuals stories? How would that grow our compassion? It doesn't need to be difficult, it doesn't need to be intensive, but that alone will grow your compassion, will grow your compassion.

Margie: 29:45

Absolutely, absolutely. Give me a minute to walk in someone else's shoes. Well, thank you very much for this conversation around healing and around other people's pain and how we can press ourselves to be the hands and feet of Jesus for other people.

Kristen: 30:08

Yeah, thanks for having me again.

Margie: 30:11

Are you wondering whether your fatigue, your lack of motivation, your lack of interest is burnout Maybe? I just wanted to let you know that I have a resource on the website, margiebryce dot com that's b-r-y-c-e. Margiebryce dot com and it is a burnout questionnaire, free for you to download, and kind of self-assess and get a sense of where you're at. There are questions that not only ask about what you're going through but maybe how often you're experiencing it and that's kind of a key to where you might be, because you have to know where you are in order to chart a course forward. And most pastors who experience pastors and ministry leaders who experience burnout rarely know that that's where they're at until they're well into it. And if you're unsure about that little statistic, so far, everybody that I've interviewed on this podcast who has experienced burnout, when I asked that kind of question, they're like, yeah, I didn't know, that's where I was at. So again, go to margiebryce dot com it's on the homepage of the website and you can get your burnout questionnaire and kind of see where you're at.

Margie: 31:50

Hey friends, the Crabby Pastor podcast is sponsored by Bryce Art Glass and you can find that on Facebook.

Margie: 31:59

I make stained glass, that's part of my self-care and also by Bryce Coaching, where I coach ministry leaders and business leaders, and so the funds that I generate from coaching and from making stained glass is what is supporting this podcast and I will have opportunities for you to be a part of sponsoring me and, as always, you can do the buy me a cup of coffee thing in the show notes.

Margie: 32:33

But I will have some other ways that you can be a part of getting the word out about the importance of healthy self-care for ministry leaders leaders. Hey, thanks for listening. It is my deep desire and passion to champion issues of sustainability in ministry and for your life, so I'm here to help. I stepped back from pastoral ministry and I feel called to help ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so that they can go the distance with God and whatever plans that God has for you. I would love to help, I would consider it an honor, and, in all things, make sure you connect to these sustainability practices you know, so that you don't become the Crabby Pastor.

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What is wrong with those sheep, anyway? My guest, Kristen Humiston, and I unpack that topic, and find a surprising link: our own trauma.

Sure, it's easy to say we are all broken, but exploring our brokenness to become wounded healers is a different sort of journey. Listen as we discuss the unexpected ways in which our scars can equip us to lead with profound compassion and authenticity.

Embarking on a path to self-awareness is no solitary endeavor, especially for those shepherding faith communities. Kristen and I explore the importance of recognizing the patterns that tether us to our past, how to bravely step towards change, and the necessity of having a sanctuary for reflection.

Connect with Kristen by clicking HERE.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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When the calling you've devoted your heart to is stripped away, where do you turn? This episode features the courageous Kristen Humiston, who opens up about the often-concealed traumas of ministry leadership. Have you or anyone you know experienced forced termination and the trauma that it induced? Then this episode is for them, and YOU! This is part one of three conversations with Kristen where we delve deeper into trauma. that not only challenges the soul but also questions the essence of self-worth and divine connection within the sacred space of the church.

The episode culminates with a powerful message for ministry leaders and anyone on the journey to recovery: emotional expression and patterned, safe relationships are the keystones to rebuilding trust and reclaiming a life of resilience and hope. Join us in this profound exploration, where we provide a beacon of light for those navigating through the darkest of times.

Connect with Kristen by clicking HERE.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Imagine stepping into a sanctuary that's as safe and nurturing as it is spiritually enriching – this is the future we're fashioning today on the Crabby Pastor podcast. I'm Margie Bryce, and alongside former private investigator Lori Morrison, we're ripping off the veil on the urgent need for secure church environments. Through Lori's unique lens, we grasp the tangible steps we can take to transform our worship spaces into bastions of safety that guard not only our physical well-being but also our emotional and spiritual lives. Together, we address the erosion of trust in religious institutions and prescribe actionable strategies to help churches rise as sanctuaries for seekers and believers alike.

Our conversation covers a lot of ground including the rise of sex trafficking preying on our youth. We also shed light on the disturbing fact that sex offenders often target religious communities due to their forgiving nature, as highlighted by psychologist Dr. Anna Salter's research. Our discussion is an essential guide to redefining love and freedom in a manner that shields our fledgling population.

Remember: burnout is an issue! Get your burnout questionnaire by going to my website!

Connections to Lori:

https://www.facebook.com/theUnlovelyTruth

https://www.instagram.com/theunlovelytruthpodcast/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/theunlovelytruth/

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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This week on the Crabby Pastor podcast, I’m thrilled to have Debra Peck, author of "The Hijacked Conscience," join us to illuminate the often misunderstood world of religious scrupulosity. Debra opens up about her personal battle with this form of OCD that entangles fear, sin, and relentless spiritual rituals. Together, we dissect the complexities of this condition, aiming to equip pastors and counselors with the knowledge to provide empathetic and informed support.

Imagine feeling trapped in a cycle of doubt and ritual, a relentless quest for spiritual assurance that never comes. This episode delves into the heart of such struggles, examining the fine line where fervent faith meets mental health challenges. It’s a candid exploration of the relationship between faith, doubt, and the human psyche, offering solace to those yearning for certainty in their divine relationship.

This conversation is more than just an exploration of religious scrupulosity; it’s a lifeline for leaders seeking to maintain their well-being to serve their congregations effectively. Tune in for an episode that promises guidance, hope, and understanding for anyone touched by the delicate interplay of faith and mental health.

Here is a link to her book: CLICK HERE

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Let's peel back the curtain of battles with diets from Atkins to Weight Watchers, and I'll share how I learned to navigate the emotional minefields that can sabotage our healthiest intentions.

This episode isn't just about what you eat, it's about the challenges we face with food. I'll share how adapting your weight management approach to fit your lifestyle is more effective than chasing the latest diet fads. From the debate over how often to step on the scale to the benefits of tracking your diet and exercise with the latest tech, I'll chat about the choices that can keep you focused on good health so you can go the distance with God. Join me as we tackle these topics and more, all while supporting each other in our quest for a balanced life in service and beyond.

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**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Here's a unique metaphor for HOW we work in our vocations.

Join me, Margie Bryce, on a journey to harmonize the scattered shards of our personal and professional lives, just like crafting a stained glass masterpiece.

The silent predator of burnout lurks in the shadows of our demanding roles, which is why this episode features a vital burnout questionnaire to help you self-assess and remain vigilant. Reflecting on my own decision to step back from pastoral ministry, I opened up about the path that led me to become a coach for others walking a similar journey.

We'll discuss the importance of self-awareness and the implementation of healthy self-care practices, aimed at preserving the passion that fuels our service without being consumed by it. If you're a ministry leader seeking to keep your inner flame alive, this conversation is a beacon in the night, guiding you toward sustainable care for yourself as you care for others.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Join Margie Bryce and special guest Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader on The Crabby Pastor podcast as they explore the delicate balance of ministry and self-care.

They discuss the transformative process of faith deconstruction, likening it to a messy yet rewarding kitchen renovation. One way to become more resilient can be through questioning and owning our faith.

The episode also addresses the crisis of immaturity of faith in North American Christianity and offers practical strategies for recognizing and preventing burnout in ministry. Tune in for inspiring insights on leading with grace and nurturing a thriving ministry.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Join podcast host Margie Bryce and special guest Michael Bischoff from Soul Leader Resources as they delve into the art of constructing a sustainable life in ministry. In this enlightening discussion, Margie and Michael explore the beauty of self-care and the vital importance of integrating sustainability into our vocational callings. Michael bravely shares his personal journey battling depression, offering a beacon of hope to fellow leaders navigating the complexities of holistic wellness in the wake of COVID-19.

Experience the raw honesty of midnight anxieties and the suffocating grip of depression as we candidly address the unseen struggles endured by many spiritual leaders. Together, we explore the crucial roles of therapists, support groups, and trusted 'soul friends' in navigating these turbulent waters. Additionally, we uncover the unexpected sanctuary found in coaching, offering valuable guidance to leaders grappling with life's relentless pressures.

As we draw this poignant series to a close, the focus shifts to the essential pillars of self-care that safeguard against the looming threat of burnout. Margie shares invaluable resources such as a burnout questionnaire and her unwavering commitment to coaching, and empowering leaders to cultivate sustainable self-care practices. This episode transcends mere conversation; it serves as a roadmap for thriving in ministry without succumbing to the pitfalls of becoming the dreaded "Crabby Pastor."

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Discover the transformative journey from the burdens of leadership to the oasis of self-care and sustainable ministry with Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast. Dive into the tranquil sanctuary of her glass workshop as she extends a personal invitation to fellow ministry leaders seeking balance and renewal.

In this candid episode, Margie confesses her struggles and triumphs in asking for help, including the profound impact of extending hospitality during the pandemic. Through intimate revelations, she sheds light on the subtle signs of burnout often ignored and offers practical tools for self-assessment and proactive care.

Join Margie as she navigates the delicate dance between serving others and nurturing one's well-being, sharing insights to guide listeners toward a sustainable and revitalized approach to ministry. Don't miss this heartfelt discussion on cultivating endurance in your calling, ensuring your passion for service burns bright without burning out.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever found yourself so immersed in the demands of ministry leadership that your own spirit starts to fray at the edges?

In this episode, we're joined by the insightful Paul Kuzma, a pastoral counselor who has weathered the storm of burnout himself. Together, our conversation weaves personal narratives and practical wisdom into a tapestry of guidance for any ministry leader seeking harmony between their calling and personal well-being.

Join us as we explore the fullness of life beyond the pulpit – from cultivating friendships outside the congregation to embracing passions that rejuvenate the soul. We'll tackle the high-stakes stresses of pastoral duties and discuss how to strike that essential balance, setting the stage for a ministry that's not only vibrant but sustainable in the long run.

Whether you're a seasoned minister or just beginning to feel the weight of your calling, there's a message here for you. We're peeling back the layers on pastoral self-care and uncovering how taking a step back can propel you forward, ensuring that your ministry is a reflection of a well-tended heart and spirit.

Join us for an episode that promises to fortify your ministry and, perhaps, help you steer clear of becoming a Crabby Pastor.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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When Cathy Parish went from a local pastor in Indiana to a minister of evangelism in Alabama, little did she know that her quest for coaching would redefine not just her path, but the way we all view mentorship in ministry. Our latest episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast is a heartfelt exploration with Cathy into the world of coaching for ministry leaders, where we debunk myths and showcase coaching as a cornerstone of support and guidance. We wade through the waters of self-discovery and unravel how a coach can be the cheerleader every leader secretly needs, especially when the going gets tough and self-doubt creeps in.

Join us as we discuss how coaching can be the antidote to imposter syndrome and a catalyst for crafting a ministry that not only survives but thrives amid the demands of worship planning and pastoral care. Our conversation takes a personal turn as I share my transformation from pastoral ministry to providing support through coaching and creative outlets. We extend a warm invitation to dive into the conversation on fostering robust self-care practices within the ministry community. It's not just about replenishing the well; it's about ensuring that the spiritual journey is as enriching and sustainable for the leader as it is for the flock they guide.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever witnessed the moment when a long-held belief is challenged and, like a seedling breaking through concrete, transforms into a new understanding? That's the kind of metamorphosis we unpack in our latest episode of the Krabby Pastor podcast, where I, Margie Bryce, sit down with guests to discuss the power of a growth mindset, especially within the sacred walls of ministry leadership. Our stirring conversation reveals how real-world implications within a faith community, to open up nurturing compassion and open-mindedness.

We then shift gears to the personal transformation that occurs when faith leaders overcome their mental barriers, embodying the teachings they share with their congregations. We also highlight the subtle indicators that help distinguish a growth-oriented mindset from a fixed one, offering a beacon for those navigating the waters of change within their communities.

In the final chapter of our conversation, we touch upon the delicate dance of honoring tradition while embracing progress within the church. I share my insights on the importance of evolving ministry models and reflect on the innovative, untraditional paths Jesus himself walked. Join us as we explore the balance between sanctuary and a platform for innovation in preaching the gospel, and how these strategies are fostering new models of community that resonate with true discipleship.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Discover what it takes to foster a transformative ministry in today's ever-changing spiritual landscape. Join me, Margie Bryce, for an insightful discussion with Reverend Alex Lang, whose candid revelations in "Departure: Why I Left the Church" have resonated with leaders and congregants alike.

We tackle the gritty realities of nurturing a congregation's growth against the grain of tradition, diving into Alex's journey and the pivotal impact of adopting either a growth or a fixed mindset in church leadership. This episode is a candid examination of the daunting, yet rewarding, path of guiding a faith community through modern challenges.

The church isn't just a place of worship; it's a living, breathing entity that must evolve with the times. As we peel back the layers, we confront the fixed mindsets that often hold congregations back, discussing the integral role pastors play in either cementing or challenging the status quo.

I share personal experiences that underscore the importance of critical thinking in discipleship, aiming to inspire a faith that's as dynamic and transformative as the life of Jesus. We also probe the generation gap in perceptions of faith, assessing how actions—or a lack thereof—may betray the beliefs professed by many.

For anyone grappling with the complexities of faith, leadership, and personal growth within their spiritual walk, this episode promises to shed light on a path forward, marked by authenticity and an expansive view of the divine.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Time for another: Back from Burnout episode. Reverend Tanner Griffin is candid about the moments that led him to step away from full-time pastoral work and this is a tale of caution as well as invaluable insight for those bearing the mantle of spiritual leadership. His emergency room wake-up call, stemming from an unrelenting panic attack, underscores the critical importance of mental health and family well-being in ministry.

Throughout our heart-to-heart, our conversation sheds light on the often invisible burden carried by those in pastoral roles—unseen yet intensely felt. Tanner's journey illustrates the perils of inheriting organizational dysfunction within a church and the immense courage required to confront it, even amidst resistance from those preferring the familiarity of the status quo. He shares how his tumultuous experience became a lesson in acknowledging one's limits. It's a narrative that serves as a beacon, guiding ministry leaders toward recognizing that their calling may sometimes lead them away from traditional paths to preserve their spirit.

Bringing our discussion to a close, we chat about how stepping outside the bounds of conventional church structures has the power to bring clarity. Tanner's transition to a life of purposeful service exemplifies the transformative power of balancing personal health with spiritual duties, a message of hope for those striving to sustain their call to ministry without falling prey to burnout.

Finally, I introduce a practical tool for self-assessment, the burnout questionnaire, aimed at helping leaders detect early signs of fatigue. The link is below in the show notes.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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When Reverend Dawn Ramirez, the compassionate force behind Little Lambs Compassionate Ministry Center, joins me, Margie Bryce, it's more than just a conversation—it's an inspiring journey through how coaching is a valuable asset for ministry. Discover the powerful narrative of how Rev. Ramirez and her team have sustained hope and support for families in Genesee County, navigating the challenging waters of the COVID-19 pandemic with an innovative shift to mobile outreach, ensuring no one goes without essentials like food, diapers, and clothing.

This episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast unveils the profound impact of coaching on ministry leaders, a topic that often goes unspoken. Reflect on the unexpected discoveries and deep-seated revelations encountered through this transformative practice. We celebrate the courage it takes to lead with vulnerability and how this shapes not only personal growth but also the extended community. By the end of our time together, you'll carry with you a renewed sense of purpose for sustaining self-care practices in ministry leadership through the process of coaching.

Here is a link to learn more about Little Lambs Compassionate Ministry Center in Flint, MI.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Join me, Margie Bryce, as I sit down with Jason Moore, an innovative ministry leader merging faith with the digital frontier. We unravel the complex relationship between artificial intelligence and spiritual outreach, sharing how AI like ChatGPT can amplify the echoes of our sermons to a tech-embraced congregation. Grappling with potential ethical dilemmas, we navigate how tradition weds innovation, ensuring our messages are not just spoken but truly absorbed.

Our conversation dispels myths and illuminates how these technologies offer small churches the chance to craft bespoke designs without breaking the bank. It's a tale of transformation—where AI becomes a beacon of hope for pastors seeking to tailor their message with authenticity and legal peace of mind.

The episode culminates in a heartfelt exploration of hybrid worship and the sustainable practices vital for ministries to flourish. I unveil my struggle to modernize worship in a quest to resonate with today's digital congregants and share personal anecdotes of self-care through stained-glass artistry. With Jason Moore by my side, we affirm the importance of evolving worship to touch the hearts of those seeking a spiritual connection, breathing new life into the sacred spaces of the 21st century.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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And just where did all the people go???

Let's chat honestly about the dip in attendance after the high holy holidays. One minute the throngs are there and the next... nada! Once those crowds disperse, reality sets in. One key reality is that we are only human. Proof: how our emotions deal with reality.

Give a listen!

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Ever feel overwhelmed by personal and global challenges? You're not alone. Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, explores how to find authentic joy amidst struggles and suffering. Margie powerfully illustrates this with the example of Mary, and her joy in serving the Lord, even amidst trials. We also touch on the unique struggles many churches have faced during the pandemic and the sustaining joy that can be found in a relationship with Jesus.

As ministry leaders, how do we avoid becoming the proverbial 'Crabby Pastor'? This episode takes a deep look into the crucial topic of sustainability and self-care for ministry leaders. We share some personal self-care practices and emphasize the importance of championing sustainability in ministry. We discuss the challenges many leaders face in their personal and ministry lives and how these practices can help you not only endure but thrive with God. Join us for this episode filled with sincere, thought-provoking discussion, prayer, and encouragement.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever felt like a 'Crabby Pastor,' hustling to keep up with ministry duties, only to realize you're burnt out and your self-care has taken a back seat?

It's time to pump the brakes and take a detour away from pastoral burnout and tune in to this little Advent devotional about the crucial role self-love plays in sustainable ministry. Wait, what??

I’m here to remind you that love is an action passionately displayed by Jesus in His ultimate act of self-sacrifice. The fast-paced world may challenge this, but let's explore how a different, more intentional pace in ministry and worship services can help you create space to hear God's voice.

We're not just talking about self-love in a bubble. The commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself reminds us that our ability to love others is rooted in our capacity for self-love. But what happens when that self-love is inadequate?

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**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Ever found yourself lost, grappling with the complexity of leading a ministry, especially during the hustle and bustle of the Advent season?

But how do we find peace in the frenzy and avoid burnout? I'm Margie Bryce, host of the Crabby Pastor podcast, on a journey to uncover practical, faith-based strategies - prayer, song, gratitude, positive thinking - to root ourselves in calmness and resilience so we can 'go the distance' with God. I share the practices that prioritize rest and rejuvenation, highlighting how sustainable habits allow us to serve better and avoid burnout. This episode highlights words from the Book of Phillippians, as a gentle reminder for all of us to seek peace, connect with God, and ensure self-care even amid hectic times. Join me for this episode as we seek to rekindle our relationship with God and love for ministry.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever considered how the shimmering beauty of a stained glass heart captures the vulnerability of those who lead in ministry? As your host, Margie Bryce, I'm here to share valuable insights relating to the sustainability of ministry, especially during this Advent season. Drawing on my journey as a ministry leader and the hardships faced by the prophet Jeremiah, I aim to offer much-needed encouragement to those serving tirelessly in ministry. Join us, as we relish the beauty and complexity of a stained glass heart, symbolizing your dedication, resilience, and vulnerability in this divine calling.

We can't ignore the fact that avoiding burnout is just as important as ministering to others. As ministry leaders, you're on a mission to spread compassion and care, and yet, we often neglect the critical importance of self-care. Let's explore this together, praying for an outpouring of creativity, hope, and obedience while discussing the transformative power of the Holy Spirit. We'll examine the significance of being firmly rooted as God's people, a crucial aspect in ensuring sustainability in ministry. If you're seeking a beacon of hope and sustainable practices as a ministry leader, this episode is your sanctuary.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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What if the very tradition meant to show appreciation towards pastors, instead stirs up feelings of trauma, invalidation, and a sense of being unappreciated? As your host, Margie Bryce, we grapple with this question on the latest episode of the Crabby Pastor podcast. I’m discussing Pastor Appreciation Month, an event that has become a contentious topic among ministry leaders, leading to the question… should we get a petition to put an end to it?

The episode delves into the complex dynamics of validation and recognition in ministry, focusing on how these celebrations of appreciation can sometimes lead to dangerous comparisons. We discuss how congregations can effectively recognize and appreciate their pastors without partaking in the traditional Pastor Appreciation Month, addressing the awkwardness that arises when pastors feel the need to request appreciation. We also discuss the challenges of measuring a pastor's worth based on a congregation's response to this annual observance.

Finally, we turn our attention to the crucial topic of mental health for pastors. We explore how Pastor Appreciation Month, while intended as a form of encouragement, can also serve as a source of trauma. The episode emphasizes the significance of establishing positive individual relationships and discovering meaningful ways to acknowledge the strenuous work of pastors. If you have ever pondered the challenges of seeking validation in ministry and how to navigate the intricate relationships within a congregation, this discussion presents an insightful exploration of these issues. Join us on this thought-provoking journey into the heart of pastoral appreciation.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Part 2 of a compelling conversation, on how sabbatical know-how. Your host, Margie Bryce, and guest Rev. Dr. Chris Adams from Biola University illuminate the significance of a sabbatical as a powerful tool for rejuvenation. But the relief doesn't end there - we also reveal how to gradual re-entry to work can save you from feeling overwhelmed, guiding you towards a softer landing back into ministry.

Moreover, our conversation ventures into the beautiful tension between structure and spontaneity during a sabbatical. We explore the significance of humility in accepting advice and fostering self-care, leaving room for God to move and speak, and striking that perfect balance between meticulous planning and serendipitous moments. Margie shares her personal experiences with sabbaticals and their profound benefits.

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**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Feeling the strain of ministry leadership? Burnout is more common than you might think, and it often goes unnoticed by those who are suffering.

Together with the insightful Rev. Dr. Chris Adams from Biola University, we explore the how-tos of sabbatical from the planning process to the actual sabbatical time. You get out what you put into a sabbatical and our discussion will help give insight into one of the more restorative aspects of cultivating sustainability in ministry.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Do you ever feel like the pressure of ministry is weighing you down? This episode is your lifeline! Join me, Margie Bryce, for a soul-refreshing conversation on self-care for ministry leaders. I'm bringing you a wealth of wisdom on building resilience through hobbies, recreational activities, and focusing on single tasks that give your brain a much-needed rest from the pressures of ministry. We'll also talk about the invaluable support of a coach or spiritual director and I'll be sharing a list of suggestions on how to rally that support from your congregations.

As we unpack a PDF file detailing 50 ways to Support Your Pastor across five dimensions of wellness, we'll redefine what success in ministry looks like - and it's not just about numbers and money. Above all, I'll drop a reminder we all need to hear from time to time: our main job is to pass the baton along to the next generation of followers of Jesus. Get ready to soak in an episode filled with insights and encouragement tailored for those who've answered the call to ministry.

For more information on the transformative Ministerial Coaching Initiative, generously supported by the Lilly Foundation and facilitated through Point Loma Nazarene's Center for Pastoral Leadership, CLICK HERE.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Are you determined to steer clear of becoming the 'Crabby Pastor,' exhausted and irritable? If so, this episode (which is Part 1 of a two-part series) will help guide you to sustain yourself in the demanding world of ministry.

We start with a look at 50 Ways to Support Your Pastor Across Five Dimensions of Well-Being: social, physical, financial, emotional, and spiritual—that will fortify your pastoral journey. This is a document available HERE which was produced by Wespath, an agency concerned with pastoral well-being associated with the United Methodist Church.

As our conversation unfolds, we put a spotlight on the vital art of setting boundaries. Explore the significance of rest, rejuvenation, and self-renewal in your pastoral care routine. Discover the secrets of planning vacations effectively while ensuring seamless pastoral care coverage in your absence. Uncover the emotional fortitude needed in ministry, and harness valuable resources like coaches, counselors, and spiritual guides.

In conclusion, we emphasize the invaluable concept of renewal leaves. Tune in now to master the art of balancing pastoral responsibilities with self-care, ensuring you never succumb to becoming the 'Crabby Pastor.' Your rejuvenated ministry journey begins here.

For more information on the transformative Ministerial Coaching Initiative, generously supported by the Lilly Foundation and facilitated through Point Loma Nazarene's Center for Pastoral Leadership, CLICK HERE.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Join me as I sit down with Janyne McConnaughey, author of Trauma in the Pews: The Impact on Faith and Spiritual Practices. We're about to pull back the curtains on the pervasive effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly on those in ministry leadership roles. Our conversation takes a deep look into the concept of ‘internal family systems’ therapy and the importance of self-regulation as an essential tool for tranquility in tumultuous times.

Imagine trying to hold a beach ball under water - that's what trying to control everything feels like. We delve into how childhood trauma can leave lasting scars on ministry leaders and the desperate need for emotional resilience. We also discuss the damage inflicted by misguided biblical interpretations and the importance of a stable foundation in our relationships. The insight we share makes it clear that unhealed ministry leaders can quickly become too exhausted to be of assistance to those in need.

In wrapping up, we focus on the invaluable advice from Janyne McConnaughey on cultivating self-care to build emotional resilience. Knowing when to separate oneself from harmful scenarios is essential. We stress the importance of empathy and understanding towards those dealing with adverse circumstances. Listen in for an eye-opening conversation, bursting with valuable lessons for ministry leaders and all those seeking to navigate life's challenges with grace and resilience.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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This week, I had the privilege of speaking with Dr. Janyne McConaughey, author of Trauma in the Pews. Together, we peeled back the layers of misconceptions surrounding trauma, particularly how it's perceived in a religious context. Her book is aimed at helping ministry leaders understand how trauma impacts the spiritual life of the majority of the people in their pews.

Janyne also emphasized how essential it is for ministry leaders to heal from their own traumas to effectively serve those in their care. We also discussed preventive strategies for burnout among ministry leaders. This episode is a goldmine for anyone involved in ministry or anyone looking to assist trauma survivors. Tune in, and let's embark on this journey of understanding and healing together.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Do you ever wonder how Pastor Appreciation Month came into being and why it can sometimes stir up a whirlwind of emotions? Go ahead, take a seat and join me, Margie Bryce, as we explore the significance, the implications, and the sometimes controversial aspects of this dedicated time. We’ll unwrap the layers of Pastor Appreciation Month and its potential to trigger both appreciation and disgruntlement. We'll have a frank discussion about the reality of pastors' lives, the good intentions, and the challenges behind this month devoted to gratitude. So, grab a cup of coffee, or maybe a cupcake, as we talk about what it means to appreciate our church leaders, even in the simplest of ways.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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I remember when I was a full-time pastor and I preached nearly 48 times a year, juggling between sermon preparations and ministry duties. Contrast that to the church I attend now, where a teaching pastor preaches no more than 26 times annually. It's a startling difference, right?

This episode is all about the wisdom gained from that disparity - the crucial lesson of self-care. It is not just about spiritual fortification through prayer and Bible reading, but also about stewarding our physical and emotional health. From handling physical ailments to monitoring our cholesterol levels, taking care of ourselves is not something to shy away from, and certainly not an aspect to overlook in sustaining ministry.

So, let's continue our exploration of self-care and sustainability, whether you're in ministry or simply striving for balance in life.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Just imagine a world where clergy are equipped with the tools to maintain both their physical and spiritual health as they lead their congregations. What kind of positive impact could that have on their ministry and the lives of those they serve? We've had a thought-provoking discussion with Kelly Wittich, Director of Health and Well-Being for WestPath, who offers insights into the challenging landscape of clergy well-being.

We tackle the elephant in the room - the declining well-being of United Methodist Church (UMC) clergy. Kelly pulls back the curtain on a recent well-being survey which reveals disturbing trends in the UMC, including rising average age of clergy and the impacts of overworking. But it's not all doom and gloom! Kelly passionately shares about the necessity of better work-life balance and reducing the 24/7 on-call mentality, highlighting the collective responsibility within the church.

As we move into our final stretch, we dig into the vital role the UMC is playing in promoting clergy self-care. Kelly shares her wisdom on practical steps of creating personal accountability checklists, forming support groups and overcoming church environment obstacles. As we candidly discuss the profound impact of the pandemic on clergy well-being, we also touch on the urgent need for investment in clergy to reverse this worrying trajectory. This conversation is a truly eye-opening exploration of the complex landscape of clergy well-being.

Support the show

**This is a GUILT-FREE zone! So here's your friendly nudge about self-care and its importance for the sake of your family, friends, and those you serve in ministry.

Get your FREE Burnout Questionnaire to help you assess whether you are dealing with just general tiredness or something MORE. CLICK HERE FOR THE BURNOUT QUESTIONNAIRE. I love scouring around to find great content to share, and am always interested in feedback, if you are or know of someone willing to share their Back from Burnout story so we can all learn together, then CLICK HERE to email me.

And, if this is a reminder you wish to opt out of, that's fine too.

Blessings on your journey!
Margie**

🦀 🦀 🦀

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever found yourself at the crux of judgment and compassion within the faith-based community? Join me as we sit down with licensed professional counselor, Kari LaFave, who illuminates the intricacies of handling crisis situations, particularly divorce, within religious spaces. Kari skillfully dissects the unique hurdles her faith-based clients face, highlighting the judgment and shame that often cast a dark cloud over these individuals. Together, we challenge traditional perspectives on biblical marriage, examining the potential for reconciliation and recognizing the harsh reality when it's just not feasible.

Listen as we discuss how to hold abusers accountable while shining a spotlight on the often-overlooked trauma victims endure and the manipulative tactics their abusers employ. What does it mean to extend grace to an offending party, and how does this play out when reintegrating an offender back into a position of leadership? This is a pertinent question we grapple with, acknowledging the complexities at play.

Finally, we venture into the shadowy realm of narcissistic abuse, and the unseen damage it inflicts. It's a complex web, often hidden behind a façade of respectability. Kari stresses the importance of professional help to understand and navigate these toxic dynamics. As we come full circle, we underscore the critical matter of self-care for those in ministry leadership. I open up about my personal journey stepping back from pastoral ministry to focus on sustaining other ministry leaders. Join us for this candid exploration into faith-based leadership, crisis management, and the pursuit of sustainable ministry.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Ever wondered what the journey from burnout to recovery looks like? Well, we're diving into that very topic with Rev. Eden Avalos shares with us about his personal journey through burnout and the steps he took toward recovery.

Reverend Avalos inspires us with his story of rediscovery. He talks about finding solace in creative outlets like writing stories and crafting personalized practices in his dedicated craft room. He emphasizes the need to pursue passions and develop individual practices for a balanced and sustainable ministry. Prepare to feel inspired, enlightened, and motivated by this intimate discussion with Reverend Avalos!

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Ever found yourself struggling to balance your personal life with your spiritual responsibilities? Dr. Chris Adams and I delve into it in this podcast episode, probing the root cause of our resistance to self-care and the tendency to segregate spirituality. We shed light on the traps of unrealistic expectations and how they unknowingly drag us into an unhealthy lifestyle. Don't miss out as we unfold the importance of self-care in maintaining spiritual stamina and fully embracing God's plan for us.

In the final part of our conversation, we dive deeper into the essence of health for ministry leaders. We reflect on how the pursuit of spiritual growth often comes at the expense of our personhood. Tune in as we discuss the role of the Holy Spirit in leading us toward repentance without self-abuse and the impact of work-life balance on our effectiveness in serving the kingdom of God. In this exploration of sustainability and self-care in ministry, we emphasize kindness towards oneself and listening more attentively to God's guidance.

Don't miss this insightful discussion aimed at inspiring a more sustainable approach in your ministry. Discover how self-care practices can strengthen your spiritual journey and bring you closer to God's plan for you.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Do you find yourself consistently on the verge of burnout? Are you seeking a renewed sense of purpose, resilience, and self-care practices that align with your divine calling? Join us for a transformative conversation with Chris Adams, a former pastor, university educator, and psychologist with a rich lineage in pastoral work in the Church of the Nazarene.

Chris brings to the fore a fresh blend of psychology and theology to help us navigate the winding path of living according to God's plan and caring for our own mental health in ministry.

This episode peels back the layers on preventing ministry burnout and building resilience, while also introducing you to Chris' top three tips for flourishing in personal well-being and vocational ministry.

In the final part of our discussion, we dive into the vital role of self-awareness, self-reflection, and self-control in warding off burnout and fostering resilience in ministry.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Picture this: a world where faith and brain science intertwine and the knowledge of both can empower us not only spiritually but biologically as well. Sounds intriguing? Sit down with me, your host Margie Bryce, and my guest Alicia Michelle, a certified neuro coach, as we guide you through this extraordinary intersection of brain science and biblical teachings. We unravel the mysteries of brain plasticity and the phenomenal power it holds in shaping our minds to walk hand in hand with God's will. We also venture into the realm of how thoughts can command our behavior and remarkably, activate or deactivate DNA within our cells.

Ever wondered how to face the monster called anxiety armed with the dual swords of faith and neuroscience? Alicia and I provide a map of this landscape, illustrating how our bodies react to fear and how we can subdue anxiety by merging the wisdom of both faith and brain science. We also spotlight the significance of crafting new patterns to replace anxious reactions and strike a balance between trusting in God and handling personal disruptions. The exploration becomes even more profound as we dissect the impact of our beliefs and negative thought patterns on our lives and the force of affirmations in making a change.

Finally, we dedicate a significant part of our conversation to the often-overlooked segment of our community—the ministry leaders. We converse about the importance of distinguishing truth from fiction and acknowledging the reality of situations they face. We emphasize how addressing deep-rooted patterns can foster progress from a fresh foundation. The necessity for support for these leaders becomes evident as we discuss the need for them to serve well. As we conclude, we echo the significance of sustainability in ministry, and how putting on the lens of a biblical worldview helps distinguish truth from misinformation and master anxiety management. Join us on this enlightening journey, and gain wisdom that transcends spiritual and biological boundaries.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Prepare to uncover the hidden importance of sleep in maintaining sustainability in ministry in our latest episode. Let's redefine self-care, starting with a good night's rest and learn to strike the ideal balance between pastoral duties and personal well-being. Join me, Margie Bryce, as I share my personal journey of stepping back from pastoral ministry to help leaders create sustainability in their lives. Let's challenge ourselves to resist late-night TV binges and scrolling and commit to radical self-care to ensure we walk on the path God has laid for us.

We've got an exciting line-up of interviews coming up in future episodes: We will hear about personal wellbeing in vocational ministry from Reverend Dr. Chris Adams and the inspiring story of a pastor's recovery from burnout. Plus, a counselor will offer insights into how churches can help victims of abuse.

Don't miss out on this journey to ensure you lead yourself well so you can lead others. Let’s move past being a Crabby Pastor to a more rested, balanced, and healthy ministry leader.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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This episode promises to provide deep insights as we engage in part two of our conversation with Jay Whittmeyer, executive director of the Lombard Mennonite Peace Center. As we navigate the complex labyrinth of relationships, we unravel the lesser-known ways they can unintentionally polarize relationships, resulting in a climate of anxiety and exclusion. However, it’s not all turbulence and tension - we also uncover the positive side of these triangles.

Wearing the hat of effective leadership is no easy feat, and this episode strives to underscore the indispensability of self-care in that journey. Listen as we spill the beans on how ministry leaders can arm themselves better with invaluable tools such as those from the Lombard Mennonite Peace Center and Bryce Coaching. We wrap up our enlightening discussion with a note of encouragement to ministry leaders out there - to practice radical self-care and build sustainability in their lives, thereby equipping them to fulfill God's calling in the long haul. Get ready to be enlightened, inspired, and challenged!

Click HERE for the book we mentioned on Loneliness.Click HERE for the book on your calling by Trisha Taylor we mentioned.Click HERE for the book on fractured families.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Ever feel like you're struggling to connect with your congregation or maintain harmony in your ministry? Feel like you're teetering on the brink of burnout? This episode will be your lifeline. Joined by Jay Whitmire, the executive director of the Lombard Mennonite Peace Center, we dive into the transformative concept of self-differentiation and its profound significance in ministries. Drawing from Family Systems Theory, we untangle the complex dynamics between the need for community and individuality, and how understanding these can revolutionize the way you lead your ministry.

We then shed light on the importance of emotional maturity and effective management of reactivity in times of change or crisis, such as the recent COVID-19 pandemic. With Whitmire’s insights, we dissect how a calm and responsive leadership style can maintain commitment and connection within the church, even in the face of adversity.

Lastly, we reflect on the critical issue of balance and sustainability in ministry. We discuss the common pitfalls that lead to burnout and share practical tips for cultivating a sustainable approach to your work and life. Highlighting the power of coaching and networking with other ministry leaders, we aim to help you avoid the dreaded 'Crabby Pastor' syndrome. With a focus on aligning with God's purpose and fostering sustainable growth, we aim to equip you to lead your ministry with renewed vitality and joy. So tune in, and let's navigate the ministry landscape together.

Connect with Lombard Mennonite Peace Center's training HERE.

The Peter Steinke book link is HERE.Edwin Friedman's book link is HERE.Roberta Gilber's book on Bowen's family systems theory is HERE.Murray Bowen's book is HERE.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Ever been stuck in the "No Fun Zone"?  Let's unwrap what it's like when we unintentionally confine ourselves to this zone where work never stops. I'll share some of my own stories and encourage you to step out of your comfort zone and into the Fun Zone. 

I'll challenge you to find time to do something fun, to relish and appreciate the life God has blessed you with.  Life is too short to be stuck in the No Fun Zone. Let's break barriers and discover the joy that awaits us in the unknown.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever felt the weight of the world crushing your spirit, leaving you gasping for air, yearning for a lifeline? Ever wondered how you'd continue to function, let alone inspire others, amidst personal turmoil and global chaos? This is where Pastor Pat Robbins found himself - staring at a precipice of overwhelming loss, personal health crisis, and ministry challenges, all while navigating an unnerving election and the throes of a pandemic. Join me as I sit down with this resilient soul from the Brown City United Methodist Church, who takes us through his journey from the edge of burnout to a place of restoration and renewal.

Pastor Pat unravels his experience, recounting the sleepless nights, the irritability, the unbearable urge to retreat from the world - stark reminders of the pressures ministry leaders often endure. Yet, his narrative isn't just about despair; it's a testament to the transformative power of reaching out for help and the healing potency of taking time for oneself. Drawing from his experiences, Pastor Pat paints a vivid picture of his sabbatical - a crucial turning point that helped him refocus on his health and well-being. His story resonates deeply, serving as a beacon for those in ministry and beyond, underlining the importance of self-care even when tasked with caring for others. So, join us in this heartfelt conversation, and take away a lesson or two about resilience, healing, and the art of self-preservation in the most trying times.

From Margie: I'm always on the hunt for "back from burnout" stories. If you have one or know of someone who experienced this, please EMAIL ME at margie@margiebryce.com

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Promised to be an eye-opener, this enlightening conversation with Amanda Simmers, a dynamic nutrition coach and personal trainer, will challenge your preconceived notions about self-care, food, and fitness.

Is it possible that the 'eat less, move more' mantra has been sabotaging your health goals? Could the pursuit of sustainability in your ministry be hampered by your dietary habits and fitness regimen? Prepare to have your perspective transformed as we uncover the real consequences of this mindset and the importance of cycling through diet and maintenance phases.

In our candid discussion, we let you in on the secrets of maintaining a healthy lifestyle without sacrificing the joy of eating your favorite foods. Amanda and I share our own experiences with restrictive diets and how moderation and balance played a significant role in our journey towards a healthier relationship with food. We also shed light on the importance of strength training and self-care, challenging the norms dictated by our culture and advocating for a more balanced approach.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

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Ever felt like ministry is an uphill battle? Join me, Margie Bryce, as I chat with the insightful Rev. Beth Caulfield about her book "People Throw Rocks at Things That Shine," where she shares her wisdom on embracing the messiness that comes with following Jesus and staying true to our unique calling. Together, we dive into the spiritual battles we face in ministry and how God can use our backgrounds to help us stand strong.

In this thought-provoking conversation, we also explore the importance of self-care, recognizing God is at work in us, and the idea that ministry is a marathon, not a sprint. We round off our discussion by addressing the critical transition facing the Church post-pandemic, and how we must embrace sustainability practices to avoid becoming 'crabby' in our ministries. Don't miss this encouraging and empowering episode!

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Rant warning!
Ever driven past a church sign that left you scratching your head? You're not alone! As a former marketing communications consultant (before my call to ministry), many a church sign has made me CRABBY.

Today, we're tackling the too-often-overlooked topic of church signage. Join me as we share our thoughts on how signs can be a missed opportunity and why it's crucial to create meaningful messages for the larger public. And, I've got examples!

I'll explain why it's best to avoid campy and cheesy messages. Don't miss out on these valuable tips!

Join in on our Fun with Church Signs summertime event. Send your favs to margie@margiebryce.com. I'll be sure to fuzz out the church name to protect the innocent or guilty... whichever.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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When I sat down with retired pastor Sheila Bishop, I couldn't help but feel inspired by her journey of being "lured" back into ministry. What started as a visit to a small church with only five active members transformed into a beautiful story of connection, community, and sustainability. Join us as we discuss how Sheila's focus on fostering relationships led to a growing and thriving congregation, reminiscent of Jesus' ministry methods.

In our conversation, Sheila shares how her efforts to build a community-centered church ultimately brought two congregations together – her own and a local Christian Methodist Episcopal church. Together, they adopted a covenant for open communication and a sense of belonging. We also explore the importance of standing up to bullying behavior in a calm and non-anxious way, and the journey to self-care for ministry leaders. Don't miss this heartfelt episode filled with valuable lessons on creating a truly connected and compassionate church.

Support the showThis summer we're having a bit of fun with church signs: great ones and the ones that make us cringe because they miss the mark of what message their audience (general public) most needs to hear. We're looking for the messages and not doing a session on church shaming so the location and name of the church will be hidden. Email those pics or church sign messages to margie@margiebryce.com.

Email me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

Find regular support on my Facebook group by clicking HERE.

Connect with me about COACHING and Workshops on self-care HERE.

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Have you ever felt the weight of trying to achieve too much while struggling to find balance in your life and ministry? In our eye-opening conversation with Tim Gaines, we delve into his personal journey of discovering the need for rest and finding balance during his first sabbatical. As someone who thrives on achievements and being deeply involved in his community, Tim faced challenges when it came to taking his first sabbatical. Listen in as he shares his story and insights on the importance of self-care and prioritizing rest in our lives and ministries.

Throughout our chat, we explore the value of turning a sabbatical into a spiritual discipline and how it can ultimately become a form of self-care. Tim also touches on the deep sadness of wasted potential in the church and the need for a shift in how we view rest and balance. As we discuss sustainability in ministry and life, we hope our conversation with Tim will inspire and encourage you to recognize when you're getting out of balance and take intentional steps towards prioritizing self-care and rest.

As a champion of sustainability in ministry and life, I'm committed to helping ministry leaders create and cultivate sustainability in their lives so they can go the distance with God. Join us in this powerful and transformative conversation with Tim Gaines, and together let's explore the importance of living into our strengths, being faithful with what we have been given, and honoring the need for rest and balance in our lives and ministries.

Support the showEmail me at margie@margiebryce.com with topic suggestions. Comments are always welcome.

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for some, self-care is about what you eat and whether you exercise. Well, I do see self-care in a larger and more holistic way as maybe you can tell from this podcast. I've been resisting talking about EXERCISE, because, you know, it's such a popular topic, right? NOT. Well, here goes... 

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Been having some conversations with ministry leaders… and between that and some other real-life experiences… I thought... this is a great time to talk about what the main task is for a ministry leader.

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I can't tell you how many ministry leaders seem to think it's a badge of honor to NOT take their vacation time. Trust me, no one is handing out medals for this. Even Jesus stepped away from the demands of the crowd to slow down and reconnect with the Father.

So... here's my rant on the topic of vacation....

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To me, Acts 27 reads like Murphy's Law -- if anything can go bad, it will. Yet, Paul, has learned to be content in ALL (not some) circumstances. Hmmm. How about you? 

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The Crabby Pastor goes biblical with this rendition of Elijah telling God that he has had ENOUGH!

Walking through a tough time? Feeling like isolating? Listen for some practical helps. 

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Rev. Dr. Deborah Rundlett joins me on this episode. Here is my disclaimer: Dr. Rundlett was an instructor at Ashland Theological Seminary during my doctoral work.

Our discussion is less about the process and more about how churches can serve their communities. This runs parallel to the question, "If your church disappeared, would anyone in your community miss it?"

Dr. Rundlett is actively serving and working with a small and elderly congregation to help them recapture their foundational reason for being. Their primary calling is to serve, and that pushes back on our nickels and noses method of assessing viability. They recruit partners to help them serve the community.

Plan on having your imagination stirred.

Click here to connect with more information on the project she is working on. 

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Rev. Michael Rayson joins the conversation and shares his private pain saga. 

It's true that ministry leaders do not have the market cornered on pain. However, it's a challenge to manage the heavy concerns of the people God has given into their care while living through a nightmare of their own. 

Hear Rev. Rayson's story...  

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Got a burnout story to share? Want a leadership or self-care topic covered.?Then go HERE.... and enter your info. Your input can be anonymous... and that's perfectly fine... or maybe you'd like to be part of an episode. It's your call. 

Meanwhile... we're talking about the BIG NUMBER Sundays....followed by the lows of the low Sundays that follow. 

What's the best way to handle that? 

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In this "post" COVID era, many ministry leaders and missionaries, feel like they are sitting on the sidelines of ministry. Some of this is due to churches reducing staff because of financial pressures and challenges of getting back onto the mission field. 

This is a discussion with Rev. Tonya Kucey, the Founder and President of Loving the Least of These Ministries International as well as an ordained elder in the Church of the Nazarene who now serves as Pastor for OxNazOnline, a digital global church serving almost 8000 members from around the world.  

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This episode includes the recent suicide of a colleague in ministry. If your private pain includes thoughts of suicide… please connect with  https://988lifeline.org or call 988. 

Many ministry leaders deal with their pain in private. Don’t walk alone…

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Oh no! Please don't add another THING to my already oppressive TO DO List. 

And yet, attentiveness to self-care is a sustaining force. Too often, ministry leaders focus on the work of ministry and minimize self-care and spiritual formation. That's not long-term sustainability in ministry.  And, those ministry leaders frequently consider leaving. 

Self-care is one way to sustain the terrain. I'm giving you my thoughts about self-care and a brief overview of what it looks like to add elements of self-care into your life. 

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It’s easy to send an emoji. Maybe people need more…

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Give a listen. Ministry coaching is very different than say a baseball coach or a soccer coach. Those coaches help bring the best out of players by telling them what to do. Accredited coaches bring the best out of you by helping YOU think differently about your challenges. 

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I asked my friend Patty Dennis, a licensed counselor who is also a trained coach, to join me and chat a bit about what is what when it comes to choosing the kind of companion you need for your journey. Patty and I have served the Church together working through revitalization processes. I think you'll find what she has to say as helpful. 

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You're stuck... and you know you need help. What KIND of help do you need? 

Listen in to hear from a counselor... and how they can be one way to get help on your journey. Seeking fellow travelers on your journey is ONE KIND of self-care. 

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Ever have life just smack you up from seemingly every direction? At once? 

I've had some of that lately, which has caused me to double down on self-care and that usually means... slowing down and re-assessing what's a reasonable pace and reasonable load. Listen in!

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My interview with author Alan Fadling.His book, An Unhurried Leader continues.

Here is his book. 

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I'm back after a six-week sabbatical (living out what I advocate) and was recently joined by author Alan Fadling to chat about the pace that Jesus lived. How can we bring that to bear in our own lives? How can we live a grace-paced existence? 

Click HERE for a link to the book mentioned in the podcast. 

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In this final episode of the Shepherd and the Shrink podcast, we are talking ANXIETY. 

Cindy Davis has spent nearly three decades writing screenplays for animated feature films and designing new lands, parades, and attractions for various Disney theme parks. As an anxiety-sufferer herself, listen and learn how we our anxiety can be lessened. 

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Be Still and Know that I am God. We all know that passage, but do we live it? Do we see silence as a treasure?

Jenny Ho Han joins the Shepherd to share about her book, Be Still and Know: Treasures of Silence. Singapore is city living at it's best: busy, stressful and noisy. It generates a lifestyle of haste with an addiction to fast-fixes. It feels impossible to find quiet, to rest, and to think deeply.

Our longing is to experience enduring peace, stronger relationships and a better sense of our unique place in the world. To do so, we must hunger for life as it is meant to be—connected to its Source and maturing into fullness and fruitfulness. This requires that we become familiar with silence as a place to visit and feel at home in. For it is in the silence that we encounter ourselves, others and God in radical ways.

To purchase the book mentioned in the podcast Be Still and Know: Treasures of Silence, click HERE.

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What on earth is humility anyway? And... just when you think you are humble, well, you aren't. Let's listen in on Rev. Dr. Matt Hook and Dr. Martin Fletcher as the Shepherd and the Shrink chat about humility. 

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Why is pride such a big deal? Listen to the Shepherd and the Shrink hash this idea about. 

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A common misconception of Christians everywhere is that to love is to take on others’ problems.  Actually, though, it’s destructive both to others and to ourselves when we try to do that, as well as when we try to get others to take on our problems.  Boundaries are what help us to determine which responsibilities are whose, and today I (Dr. Matt Hook) talk about why that’s important. 

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Throughout our lives, there will be challenging times, and maintaining calmness can be difficult. Today, it is more challenging than ever to find peace and have a calm state of mind. The chaos around us has a profound effect on our well-being, and finding serenity is not easy. 

So, how do you navigate your way through tough times and remain in a calm state? How do you find a sense of peace... and what does that even mean? In today's episode, we explore the meaning of calmness and how it differentiates from peace. We share how many people look for peace in the wrong places and how you can bring yourself into the moment to promote calmness. 

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Life can be exhausting and overwhelming, and we often make it worse by trying to push ourselves past our limit. This isn’t healthy and it isn’t what Christ wants for us. Instead, He commands us to set aside a full day every week for Him. Your first thought might be, Who has time for that? Join us today as we talk about why YOU do, and why it’ll actually help you to be more productive in the long run, not to mention more healthy, more at peace, and closer to God. That’s right, today we tackle the Sabbath. Join us as we talk about the importance of resting, the ways in which the Sabbath strengthens our relationship with God and others, why it stems from God’s love for us, and why even the busiest person needs it. 

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Ever hit a wall when working hard on your sermon? Ideas seem elusive. The pieces aren't coming together. And the clock is ticking. 

The struggle is real. Here are some helpful ideas to get you unstuck. 

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Ok, I get it. The lists, the obligations, the extra work both at home and on the job.  The push-push-push seems even greater during the holiday season. 

How would things change if you pace was altered a bit? 

Life just keeps throwing one slow-down reminder to me after another. Here's another slow-down message!

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I'm sharing a poem my Spiritual Director, Kathy, shared with me years ago.

This is about learning to trust. Admit it, there are days we do this very well and days we don't.

In keeping with the recent theme of slowing down, sometimes we outpaced ourselves because our trust is lagging. If I don't do X, Y, and Z, then everything is going to fall apart. Sometimes X, Y, and Z aren't really the most important things to manage. Or, we substitute X, Y, and Z for tasks that will slow us down and help us hear God better. And maybe, just maybe, slowing down will help us understand better which items on our to-do list really need our attention... and which ones don't. 

I'LL LEAVE A COPY HERE FOR YOU. 

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So, I recently spent time in the quiet of the glass workshop and came to some interesting insights that I’m passing on to you. 

Maybe there is some value to slowing down? Maybe we can indeed hear God better! 

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I’m still working at slowing down. Doesn’t that sound funny? But yes, it takes an intentional effort to actually slow down. Here’s some things I’ve learned from… of all things: exercise! 

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I have trouble slowing down. And, I have trouble identifying that I'm going too fast and need to slow down. 

How about you?

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I sat down with Rev. Steve Barkey while he was still fresh from the sabbatical trail. He has a lot to offer on this topic and shares the whys/hows of taking a sabbatical. 

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Rev. Patrick Robbins shares his ‘Back from Burnout’ journey. 

He found out that even after more than 20 years of ministry, a pastor can find themselves in burnout. He also learned some valuable lessons for today. 

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Spoiler alert: this episode is based on the movie The King's Speech. 

Great story of humility in action and reaching out for the kind of help you need. 

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More and more I am hearing about how ministry leaders feel unprepared for dealing with those dastardly finance reports. Here's a quick overview of some of that. 

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I'm chatting, well, with an occasional rant... about Pastor Appreciation MONTH. That's in caps not because I'm yelling but because of the weight of 30 whole days! 

I'd love your response! Tell me the best and worst of Pastor Appreciation Month: margie@margiebryce.com 

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Part 2 of my interview with Rev. Valerie White where she continues her story about her journey toward wholeness. 

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This is Part One of a two-part interview where Rev. Valerie White shares her journey dealing with the challenges of ministry and the need for compassion and support for ministry leaders. We'll finish Part Two as Valerie shares about 'mild' depression. 

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This past spring and summer I headed out to Conferences and set up my table. Reactions to my Crabby Pastor signs were indeed interesting. Hear now what I learned from being on the road meeting up with ministry leaders. 

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A lesson about burnout! And.. about coming back from burnout. 

Sometimes we are burned out and don't even know it until we end up somewhere we never intended.  Give a listen to my interview with Rev. Tony Miltenberger who courageously shares his burnout story... and what brought him back from burnout.  

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I sat down with Rev. Beth Caulfield, author of People Throw Rocks at Things that Shine: A Clergy Whistleblower's Journey. We chatted about what ministry leaders can do when they are struggling. Lots of great self-care advice here.
HERE is a link to purchase her book.

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I have great friends who ask me to do some unusual things. I'm never sure whether I should be flattered that they think I'm brave enough to try new stuff out or whether they are looking for a fresh victim. Either way, taking time for some nonsense... (no sense) is a great idea. 

And, God can use even nonsense to make a point. 

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Leadership can be isolating... and a lonely road. 

Who is your lifeline person? Who could you call at 3 a.m. if trouble arose? 

One step out of isolation and loneliness is to Phone-A-Friend. Here's the challenge. Are you up for it? 

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Kathy was my spiritual director for about eight years. This means she endured A LOT because she dealt with ME. 
Kathy passed away from Alzheimer's in January 2022. Her illness took her away too early from many who benefitted from her wisdom and wit. Here I'm sharing some of Kathy's best pieces of wisdom as a tribute to her. 
Her influence on the ministry I am called to is profound. For one, I have a spiritual director bent that impacts how I coach others.  I hope you find some treasures in this podcast that will be sustaining. 

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How easy is it for you to admit you're not "all THAT AND a bag of chips?" 

Are you fearful when you think you might not have all the answers?  

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Listen up, now. This is for all y'all, dudes and ladies.

It's important for all y'all to know how women use power and even how we undermine ourselves in the process.

I was curious about how women's voices are heard in the culture and I read Dr. Deborah Birx's book with an eye AWAY FROM POLITICS and toward the level of self-awareness that Dr. Birx understood and how she acted accordingly. Quite an interesting read.

Book cited: Silent Invasion by Dr. Deborah Birx.

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Join me as I interview Alicia Michelle on the importance of the right mindset for ministry leaders... especially when we feel like we're really NOT ENOUGH. 

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Rev. Dr. Dan Boone and I chatted a bit about the challenges faced by today’s ministry leader. 

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**Rev. Dr. Dan Boone joins me to talk about preaching. He now serves as President of Trevecca Nazarene University but before that he taught at Nazarene Theological Seminary and I was really inspired by his preaching class.

His approach helped me to bring the text to life in today's world to help people hear what they need to hear as opposed to just getting our message said.**Here is a link to the book that contains this helpful process, Preaching the Story that Shapes Us,

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Not sure where you stand in the Land of the Burned out? Learn more here. 

This is the actual test that revealed the level of burnout I was operating under. 

Get a copy of the Burnout Quiz HERE.

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Digging a bit more into "serving" and what it means to serve God's purposes. 

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What does it mean to be a servant of Jesus? A leader with a hefty dose of kenosis, for sure!

These are lessons from Paul and the Church at Philippi. If you can imagine, there were issues that sought to divide the congregation. Even. Back. Then.

So, what do we do with this NOW? 

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The franchise dance is a term I coined for my dissertation on how well ministry leaders understand kenosis. 

Listen... and ask yourself... in what ways am I doing the franchise dance? 

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This podcast is about self-care for ministry leaders and one spiritual aspect of this is… being the kind of leader God needs… so this is a spiritual type of leadership.  KENOTIC leadership is a leadership connected to the Greek word kenosis **as used in Philippians 2. I'll explain some of what that LOOKS like in this podcast and a few podcasts that follow this one. 

Here's what a dissertation project showed me about ministry leaders and their level of understanding of Kenotic Leadership. 

Here's what this means for ministry leaders today.**

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**There is nothing new under the sun. And that goes for leadership issues as well.

Here I'm going to talk about two notorious recent-day leadership debacles in the light of a humble historic figure: John Chrysostom.**

And hey... if you have a burnout story or leadership topic you are just dying to have me unpack... go HERE. I'm getting some great stories already and maybe yours needs to be told. Note: you may remain anonymous if you wish.

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I've been on an unusual streaming journey. This is part 1 of a three-part mini-series. 

This episode looks at kenotic leadership through the lens of two secular leaders: Adam Neumann of WeWork and Elizabeth Holmes of Theranos. 

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Here is some help for your mental and probably emotional health.

What does your sermon prep look like? Need some practical helps? 

Or, share this with a "friend" who needs some helps in this department. 

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Got a burnout story to share? Want a leadership or self-care topic covered.?Then go HERE.... and enter your info. Your input can be anonymous... and that's perfectly fine... or maybe you'd like to be part of an episode. It's your call. 

Meanwhile... we're talking about the BIG NUMBER Sundays....followed by the lows of the low Sundays that follow. 

What's the best way to handle that? 

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**Leading ministry can be lonely. Some of us tend to isolate because of geography and others withdraw,

Many ministry leaders believe they can handle their own “ministry stuff” in isolation…with Jesus… but in isolation. Sometimes they don’t have a safe place to talk about their stuff. Sometimes even among colleagues you don’t want to chat up your challenges and weaknesses because… in some denominations…. You never know if a person in your group could end up being your ministry boss someday and they will already know more than you want them to know. I have heard this from the mouths of ministry leaders in case you think I’m making this up. I never have to make stuff up… life, and ministry life, can be strange enough on their own.**

**Share your burnout stories or offer up a topic you are concerned about and it could end up being addressed in the podcast. You can do this anonymously, or offer to take part in the podcast... either way.

Go to www.crabbypastor.com and look for the Crabby Pastor Podcast link to add your voice to the conversation.**

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I can't tell you how many ministry leaders seem to think it's a badge of honor to NOT take their vacation time. Trust me, no one is handing out medals for this. Even Jesus stepped away from the demands of the crowd to slow down and reconnect with the Father.

So... here's my rant on the topic of vacation....

I'm collecting topics for discussion and burnout stories. They will be used for the podcast and it's your chance to help me make sure my content helps you with your journey as a ministry leader. You may offer these anonymously... or, actually BE ON THE PODCAST. The choice is yours and I'll honor your wishes.. To add your "story" GO HERE.

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Are you a human DOING or a human BEING?

Another way of asking that is... where is the center of your identity? This is important because your actions flow OUT of your identity. 

I'm collecting topics for discussion and burnout stories. They will be used for the podcast and it's your chance to help me make sure my content helps you with your journey as a ministry leader. You may offer these anonymously... or, actually BE ON THE PODCAST. The choice is yours and I'll honor your wishes..
To add your "story" GO HERE.

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Think for a moment about how you talk to yourself. How kind are you? How patient are you? How much grace do you extend to yourself?

Can you imagine Jesus saying to you what you say to yourself?

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I'm collecting topics for discussion and burnout stories. They will be used for the podcast and it's your chance to help me make sure my content helps you with your journey as a ministry leader. You may offer these anonymously... or, actually BE ON THE PODCAST. The choice is yours and I'll honor your wishes..
To add your "story" GO HERE.

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A little bit of brain science helps mental self-care. And, today, the technology we use does indeed impact our minds. In fact, our technology becomes part of us. Don't believe me? Think about how you can keyboard (a technology) without thinking about each letter you are hitting. Slowly, over time, the tools we use become part of us. So what does this mean for self-care and taking care of our minds? 

A recommended book mentioned in this episode: The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to our Brains by Nicholas Carr.

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-style self-assessment to help you understand your own mindset about self-care. 

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Stuck?

In transition? Wondering about the next steps?

All these are great reasons to get a coach(which is a type of self-care).

But what really is the very first step to self-care? Know this: it all begins with YOU.

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-style self-assessment to help you understand your own mindset about self-care. 

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Here's how a coach worked with me as  I lead the process of merging  4.5 churches... and you read correctly four-point-five churches.

Don't journey alone!

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-style self-assessment to help you understand your own mindset about self-care. 

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Kathy, my Spiritual Director, walked with me for about 7 years… during the doctoral process and even beyond! She was a gift to me that greatly influences me to this day. 

Kathy never missed an opportunity to say, “You’re living your dissertation!”

So, when you pick a topic for your dissertation, (and mine was a survey about how well pastors understood being surrendered to God’s purposes) of course, of course, of course, God has your life regularly dovetail with said topic… and on top of that, provides just the right Spiritual Director to point it out. Every. Single Time.

My issues were about finding peace on the path. My prayer was “Lord, help me to rest in You.” 

God sent Kathy as my companion for this leg of the race.

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-style self-assessment to help you understand your own mindset about self-care. 

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Sometimes you get to the end of your rope with a long process. Other times you wonder if a call from God means you are operating under delusions of grandeur. It had to be ME because God does not get things wrong. Maybe I misinterpreted the Call. That could happen, right?

About halfway through seminary, I discovered a master's thesis spelling out statistically how unlikely it was that I would serve in the denomination I was called under. And even though one of the profs had mentioned the likelihood of working in another denomination when I was doing the initial visit to check out the seminary, I heard what he said but decided a non-stick approach was best.

I like numbers. I was a math major at one point. Numbers speak to me. Numbers speak rather starkly. I continued with my education, albeit a bit less inflated than when I began. In retrospect, humility is always a good thing, but at the time, that's not what I did with my situation.

I finished my degree, went on to get ordained, and always in the back of my mind I thought, "Something will change when I..." (graduate? get ordained?)

But, I had gotten to the end of my rope. Maybe it was the end of myself?

This is a "don't try this at home" kind of episode. Not sure why I decided to address this issue with God while I was driving on a major highway, but hindsight doesn't always clear the mud.

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-style self-assessment to help you understand your own mindset about self-care.

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As with most calls, once you tell people around you they all go silent. I was finally figuring out why some of that is.

And then about halfway through the challenges of education, new issues come to light: my own baggage and idiosyncrasies. I thought they were already too many to count. I discovered there were even more than I had imagined. And that was on top of the fact that God made me a girl. 

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-styled self-assessment to help you understand your own mindset about self-care. 

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I honestly did not see this coming.

Being raised Catholic, my options were: nun.

I had this list... and it was titled: "I'll Do Anything for you Jesus, except..." 

It contained things like go to a Third World (I'm a wimp, I admit it), speak in front of people (I used to break out in red blotches, ask my husband), and other such nonsense that I deemed as being beyond my personal capacity.

Little did I know... God equips the called. Yikes.

Click HERE for Downloadable PDF: Radical Self-care: A journal-styled assessment. 

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God always seems to lead one step at a time. I am chronically jumping up and down next to Jesus saying, "I wanna see the big picture plan, Jesus..." 

Jesus, ever so kindly says, "Can you trust me to hold the blueprint for you??"

This. Is. Humbling. And. Hard. If you are at all a visionary (someone who sees possibility ahead), it's tricky to stay in the NOW. On the other hand, God usually has surprises that are best left unknown.

And... we grow in our trust of Jesus as a result.  What I frequently see as my bungling along actually becomes something more meaningful than I could ever imagine. 

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A much-needed question at a timely moment. 

I chronically do things backward, which I guess has a consistency to it, doesn't it? 

I attended a bible study for a year and a half before attending a worship service.  For sure I thought the walls would cave in when I set foot in the sanctuary, so oddly I attended Bible study in the fellowship hall thinking those 20 feet or so made the difference.  

My first step back into the sanctuary was for a special speaker on a Wednesday night. As if that would make any sort of difference on whether the walls caved or not. Finally... I began attending worship... a foreign turf for someone raised Catholic, but God and my friends were there. 

Little did I realize how impactful worship attendance would be. 

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**This is part 3 in a series. 

At this point, I’m on government programs… Pell grant, food stamps, and whatever else assistance I can find to sustain and try to move forward. I was a stay-at-home Mom thrust into the world of figuring out how to get my feet under myself and how to become the head of a household. 

Boy, I don't recall thinking things through thoroughly as I do now, but perhaps that's what stress and trauma do. And, probably I now have less stress and more brain space to OVER think. 

I was busy just putting one foot in front of the other. Fortunately,  God was with me every step of the way... even if I, as a brand-new Christians, didn't think quite so theologically.**

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In this next episode in our series: 

God grants friends for the journey... in a big way. 

These spiritual friends were the "go above and beyond" types of Christians, dedicated to showing God's love to me in a messy time. 

All of this forms the basis for why I am passionate about serving ministry leaders. 

And, it's a strong call for you to surround yourself with spiritual friends... or be a spiritual friend to someone God plants in your path. 

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Just when you think life is going along swimmingly, WHAM! an unexpected connection is made that frankly made me see my pursuit of self-care in a whole new light.

All this time I thought this ministry was based on how I became a burned-out and fried little ministry leader after a merger of 4.5 congregations.  Ha! The roots go much deeper!

Reminder: REDEMPTION: taking what is not-so-great and making it be good. And just who would think God would take that, touch the hearts of people along my journey to help me experience transformation at the hands of a loving God. 

Listen to this Romans 8:28 turnaround story.

WEBSITE: HERE FACEBOOK: HERE

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Sometimes we get so focused on what we are doing that we miss ways God might be getting us ready for a bit of a side excursion. 

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I've stepped away after more than 15 years of pastoral ministry and a dozen years of church revitalization work to answer the call to be a spiritual companion to those who are serving in ministry today.

I'd LOVE to hear your story. No, this is not a sales pitch. (I'm kinda bad at those, actually.)

I learn and grow as I hear the needs of those who are leading others to be wholehearted followers of Jesus.

CLICK HERE to schedule a FREE Discovery Call.

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Take a moment to take a breath and recapture why you do what you to serve Jesus.

Click here to upload PDF of the Prayer.

As always, I am here to help! I'd love to hear your story!
Click here to schedule a FREE Discovery Call today!

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Weird things can happen at a retreat. And hey, someone has to call out the chef. 

Let's talk about frankness. Let's talk about honesty. But let's NOT eat those garlic pancakes in silence! 

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One more turkey story in honor of turkey day. 

I'm pretty sure this is past the statute of limitations so it's safe to tell this true story. No harm was intended. However... 

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My first role as pastor. Here's a glimpse of what it looks like walking into an existing congregation and learning their rhythms... while at the same time... hoping for more for them. 

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I know people who exude patience. They just ooze patience. 

I'm not one of those. You?

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The church is in transition! It's truly crazy times. 

What is God up to? 

What "new thing" is God putting before us? Do you see it? (Isaiah 43:18-19)

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When ministry seems to not be percolating the way you think it should be, how well do you handle it? Where do you file such a thing?

Here's a gritty and personal saga with a message for all of us.

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE.

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Talkin' FOOD (and exercise). 

One more way to create sustainability. 

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When ministry seems to not be percolating the way you think it should be, how well do you handle it? Where do you file such a thing?

Here's a gritty and personal saga with a message for all of us.

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thecrabbypastor)

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When ministry seems to not be percolating the way you think it should be, how well do you handle it? Where do you file such a thing?

Here's a gritty and personal saga with a message for all of us.

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thecrabbypastor)

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When ministry seems to not be percolating the way you think it should be, how well do you handle it? Where do you file such a thing?

Here's a gritty and personal saga with a message for all of us.

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thecrabbypastor)

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Are you a dim bulb?? Or a bright light?

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thecrabbypastor)

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Why do we think "rest" is synonymous with wasting time? We even resist slowing down... gotta get it done, get it done... and from time to time we even believe everything hinges on what we DO!

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE. For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

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If we chuck you out in the deep water... can you swim??

This is what some in ministry experience. Not much compassion in that, especially if the person chucked dropped in the vast ocean cannot swim or gets fatigued from treading water too long.

This is the backstory of this podcast.

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find out more about me HERE.

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I was trained in the art of "non-anxious" presence. And that is a helpful tool for leaders.  Can non-anxious presence be taken too far??

So... what gets you crabby? Email me at margie@margiebryce.com and your topic may be chosen for one of the podcasts... you may remain anonymous, or not... your choice.

For weekly encouragement join our sustainability community on Facebook. 

Reminder: I'm a coach, instructor, and former ministry leader who cares deeply about the challenges ministry leaders face today. I'm championing sustainability in ministry. I offer a variety of services: one-on-one coaching, group coaching, accountability groups, public speaker, and workshops. Find about more about me HERE.

Support the show (https://www.buymeacoffee.com/thecrabbypastor)

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