The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills

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In this episode, I talk with Mr. Supply Chain, Daniel Stanton. He was all over national news during the Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020. If you recognize the term "the bullwhip effect" and you aren't in supply chain management, it's because you saw him speak with Tucker Carlson, or someone like that.

I’ll admit, while I knew there was a Supply Chain Management connection – the methods Daniel uses for recruiting was something that I completely missed in my recruiting experience prior to this conversation. Why? Because when I started taking up a seat at the table, the company was small. But when you are dealing with multi-state work, there is a new dynamic. These are strategies that, while designed for a large company, can be executed at any level.

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Daniel Stanton and I had lunch together almost every single day during my senior year. Those days were filled with conversations about string theory and Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, late nights in his basement playing Arlo Guthrie on his guitar and he has a child that was born one day before my daughter. In this interview, I really felt our old friendship show up.

Our lives took entirely different turns. I thought I would graduate high school and go into mechanical and aeronautical engineering. I didn’t. I took a series of customer service jobs and fell into Recruiting.

Daniel went into the Navy, then through a series of colleges, degrees, certificates, a master’s from MIT, and became a very public expert in Supply Chain Management where he wound up recreating much of the recruiting process for an international industrial equipment company.

I love that Daniel has varied experience, and in a company that might be perceived as having a certain culture, he pivoted and brought in people with more varied skills. I spoke a while back about the career pyramid that Gen Y is capitalizing on. I have to say, Daniel was early to this pyramid game, did it before it was recognized as a thing. The base of his pyramid is broad and he has been able to relate his experience to other areas of business.

The two of us have experienced plenty of hard knocks, we've invested in lots of education, and our beliefs and careers have largely done the same thing. His on much larger scale than mine. But, as you hear in this episode, we still share similar philosophies on most things, especially when it come to recruiting.

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In Part 2 of our interview, Daniel brought some really cool clarity to the recruiting process that was new to me. I’ve seen too many times that recruiting isn’t brought into strategic planning or given strategic planning goals. And until recently, HR Managers didn’t have a recruiting background, they often came up the ranks through employee relations or compensation. Very few of them concentrated on large scale recruiting for a long period of time.

Daniel illustrates how to us Sales & Operations Planning (S&OP) methods for recruiting. Executives can look at the company's hiring needs without having to have a recruiter at the table by having hiring managers all write down their goals and recruiting methods for each department. When you bring them together you can create a forecast and see where potential gaps to your hiring strategy might be

What Daniel brings to the table is intentional recruiting, it’s bridging the gap between executive goals and district management and middle management. It’s consciously breaking down silos, it’s causing strategic communication between divisions.

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GenTog is an intergenerational day care that stands for Generations Together, with kids on one side, and grandparents on the other. They bring them together during the day to do crafts or music together. When the kids go outside to play, the grandparents sit at tables and drink coffee outside with them. It was reported to me that my daughter would hang out at the fence and wave and smile them.

This is my conversation with Joan San Nicolas. This conversation is incredibly personal. It’s also what I love about businesses that break the norm. Where GenTog breaks the rules, and they come out so naturally. I remember how pumped I was after this interview. I cried a little even. I’m not normally a cryer.

But this is the magic that Joan brings to the world.

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GenTog is an intergenerational day care that stands for Generations Together, with kids on one side, and grandparents on the other. They bring them together during the day to do crafts or music together. In this interview, I speak with Joan San Nicolas, "Miss Joanie", the Childcare Director.

What does managing an intergenerational day care have to do with recruiting? Well, it's setting up expectations differently. It's normalizing relationships and activities from day one. It's not selling one brand of expectations when something else is actually happening.

It's so simple, and yet so many companies miss the mark here. They don't recruit, onboard and train with next year in mind. I get that sometimes we don't feel like we have that luxury. But businesses do. That's what strategy is about.

And what stood out to me was Joan's up-front nature about learning that line as she grew into a management role. She did that side by side with the people who were her co-workers. She states it almost casually. I love that. Really though, that's a hard lesson for many people to learn. And most people don't want to admit that learning curve.

If you listen carefully, she touches on some very simple concepts. And yet, those concepts are just about setting expectations and treating each other as a human being, respectful and with care. She’s not giving trendy advice. There are no buzz words. She’s just setting expectations clearly, communicating regularly, and pitching in as needed.

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This is part 2 of my conversation with Joan San Nicolas, who, along with her mentor and GenTog founder Murt, focus on doing the right things at GenTog.

Listening to Joan makes management seem simple. I know it's not. There were so many little golden nuggets, and they are almost hidden. Just her natural way of being with staff and clients, most of it centered around knowing what makes each person unique.

This is really what management is about and what excellent management looks like. It's setting expectations, pulling together as a team, and knowing what the strategy is.

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Hey all! Daava here. I am back for Season 2 of The Rebellious Recruiter

Remember when I talked about The Wallow? After Season 1, That's where I found myself, and I needed to do my own wallow. Let me tell you why.

I went through a divorce, if you've been through one, you know. You just know…
I'm an HR Director for a start-up company in a startup industry. which requires weird hours and travel.
COVID. Ya'll… people like me weren't cut out for lack of hugs.
Distance learning.
Writers block. OMG! Given the nature of #1, #3, and #4… it's no wonder my brain has short circuited.
And finally, all the shoulds of what I should have done when I launched this podcast. If you want a really good explanation of shoulds, check out Kim Ludeman's Captivatingly Confident podcast.

I hope you pardon my wallow. I needed it. And now it's on to Season 2!

So what are you going to hear?

Two opposite ends of the spectrum. Joan San Nicolas who runs the childhood development side of an intergenerational daycare called GenTog. And then, Daniel Stanton. He was all over national news during the Toilet Paper Shortage of 2020. If you recognize the term "the bullwhip effect" and you aren't in supply chain management, it's because you saw him speak with Tucker Carlson, or someone like that.

Massive virtual HUGS!! Seriously, HUGS all around. I'll see you on the flip side.

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As a recruiter, have you ever had the experience where every candidate falls short because someone on the team was so amazing, that everyone else is just dull and lifeless compared to them?

If you've been in management for awhile, you'll inherently get what I am talking about in this episode. We're talking about the person who is so natural at their job, they "wow" every single person they come in contact with.

Who are these people? Once a blue moon, a person is hired that radically defines what "right" looks like and their job performance is so surreal and proficient, they are basically a savant. One problem that arises for a recruiter or manager is the Contrast Effect. In this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I define the Contrast Effect, and the best way to avoid it when managing 2 very rare and special types of employees in order to get the most from the whole team.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

The Contrast Effect looks not at how employees do their job, but how we see them.
The Contrast Effect is most likely to occur when we perceive the target as average, when the target is unfamiliar, when the perceiver has enough cognitive resources, the context is homogeneous, and the context is negative.
The "Battle-Axe" and the "Plug and Play" types of employees go to work everyday because their job is where they are self actualized.
Don't go looking for these people in interviews, but learn to recognize them once they are on board.
The "Battle-Axe" is the person you call on when you need something expertly done; they know they are good at their job, they know why things work, and they know their limits.
When you hire a Battle-Axe, use them to help you create SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) and to give tips to your team on daily tasks and objectives.
Never compare your staff to the Battle-Axe.
The "Plug and Play" is driven by an insatiable curiosity, they are problem solvers, have an ability to dial in on departmental issues, and they are managers that are great at deploying their team’s talent in a way that is shockingly brilliant.
If you ever stumble into a Plug-&-Play, tell them the end goal and let them do their thing.
Plug-&-Plays have rippling effects that positively affect your business for years.

Episode Links:

The Rebellious Recruiter

Contrast Effect

Episode 018: Unwritten Rules

C.L.A.M.S.

Alan Mulally: Leaders Must Serve, with Courage

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Episode 020: Pivots, Swerves and a Solid Base

People redefining themselves, it's all the rage to swerve, rebrand, and pivot. That being said, swerving candidates often give us hiring managers a reason for a sideways glance.

I've been across the table from several people looking to jump career paths. Sometimes it works, sometimes it's an abject disaster. In this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I take a look at the systems that Baby Boomers, Gen X'ers and Millennials had to work within in as it relates to career path. It's interesting that Millennials perfected the system that Generation X built.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Baby Boomers worked up the "corporate ladder", working toward a Gold Watch the way their Dad's did it.
For many in Generation X, blue collar work was demonized and were tracked for College, then start at the bottom and work their way up
But, Gen X'ers saw their parents losing their jobs before they could reach the top of the ladder, and were unable to get their gold watch.
When email, the internet and cell phones came around, Gen X'ers started job hopping, leaving a company for a new opportunity, before the inevitable lay offs.
When Millennials entered the job market, it became normal to enter the work force trying on several different perspectives.
We designed training systems at larger companies to expose recent college grads to 4 departments in 2 years. We wanted to give people perspective of how multiple departments worked together.
As Millennials started rising in companies, their focus narrowed, and their career path was shaped like a pyramid.
Generation X was watching from the sidelines because they were still on a ladder. They had to climb down and create a base. They took a cut in pay, while the younger people excelled quicker, because their base was stronger.
Anyone can take on a second career, as long as they have taken the time to lay the foundation.
Big pivots need to be planned, and expertly formulated, manipulated, calculated and executed.

Episode Links:

The Rebellious Recruiter

Flippy Motorolas with bendy antennas

Generations Explained

Latchkey Kids

Leave It To Beaver

Isn't ironic, don't you think?

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Episode 019: Yeah Yeah Yeah, Mouth Breathers and Fake Accents

Candidates get nervous. When they get nervous, crazy things happen. They fidget, they bring forth really weird speaking habits, they even change their natural speaking accent.

Have you ever thought about helping a candidate succeed in an interview? I do. I don't want people losing a chance at a job over their nerves. Even sitting in the corporate seat, there is still a great benefit to helping people succeed. Nerves happen, but they shouldn't be a barrier to having a great person on your team. On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I'm going to talk about what to do when you see or hear a candidate get over taken by nerves during an interview.

Whether you have candidates who, when they get nervous, start every sentence with "yeah. yeah , yeah", or who breathe heavily through their mouth, or even hide their true nationality by faking an American accent until they feel comfortable, I'm not going to let bad speaking habits prevent excellent candidates from getting a chance. Remember, as a recruiter, you are selling the company and trying to help build the business. That opening you have, it's someone's jam, and giving them advice, even if you don't hire them, might come back around. It's part of the relationship building, coaching, and mentoring aspect of being a recruiter. If you put yourself in that driver seat, it will be more natural when you bring people on. You'll also be more likely to bring people on who collaborate with you, challenge you, follow through.

You're putting good things out in the world. Maybe your advice will help them build somewhere else. Thinking a bit globally, it's good for you, good for the candidates, good for the industry, community, the world.

And, it's good for your soul.

Episode Links:

The Rebellious Recruiter

Listen In with Heather Hill

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Episode 018: Unwritten Rules

Unwritten rules, they are so natural to us and are deeply part of our communication and expectations. Unwritten rules cause uncommunicated expectations. Uncommunicated expectations break up marriages, families, and businesses. What are your values, your tenets, your culture and have you ever considered what your unwritten rules are?

Have you ever heard the phrase "beat them over the head with the Bible?" Or the concept of beating sense into a person? So much corporate capital is spent on companies using culture to recruit, and an equal amount is spent on communication. And yet… there is a gap. On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I'll be talking about that gap. The gap that is caused by all of our unwritten rules and uncommunicated expectations.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Unwritten rules serve no purpose. The issue is that we all have them, and we all base our communication on unwritten rules.
The first place you can start establishing a common language with employees is before they become an employee.
Recently, in a recruiter forum, a poster asked, "What type of answer do you want when you open the interview with 'Tell me about yourself'?"
Responses to that post were wide ranging from learning about hobbies, to determining work ethic, how the candidate focuses on personal productivity to how they put their character on display.
Candidates were judged on their response without context. A candidate opens up about their personal life with one interviewer, and it's awesome. But the next thinks they aren't professional, and the next automatically makes it mean they can hold a schedule.
It's all assumptions, caused by unwritten rules.
The challenge for today's episode is to reflect on your unwritten rules and write them down. Use this new found knowledge to document your expectations and get clear on the communication you expect.

Episode Links:

The Rebellious Recruiter

Does your language shape how you think?

Guugu Yimithirr Language

Simon Sinek - Start With Why

Episode 016: Camp, Cadavers and Crappy Questions

Episode 007: The Ideal Phone Screen

How does your experience relate to jobs we have here?

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Episode 017: The Power of the Wallow

Wallowing. It happens. No, I'm not talking about a pig rolling around in the mud. I'm talking about you, and your emotions. And using your emotions to create a connected space to your employees and to understand their motivations.

Have you ever had that one moment of unrestrained pleasure over the greatest chocolate? Or the lingering devastation over the death of a loved one? Do you feel that having emotions, at a very deep level, is a good thing or a bad thing? On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I am talking about how to get beyond the psychological projections you might have, and allowing yourself, and your staff, to wallow.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

To have the best running operation, people need to be present for their jobs.
When a person isn't present, mistakes are made, accidents happen, and your company pays the price.
Allowing your people to avoid their emotions in the moment can be a health risk to them.
Crying reduces cortisol, concentrated levels of manganese, and lowers blood pressure.
Companies glorify the employee who still comes to work while facing personal adversity, when in reality, that can hurt your business' success.
By allowing your employees (appropriate) time wallow in their emotions, allows a tenfold return in them wallowing about your business, creating loyalty and a stronger bond to your organization.
Secrets to a fully engaged crew:
1. SOPs (Standard Operation Procedures)
2. Move away from Tribal Knowledge
3. Training and Cross Training
4. Do not let one person hold the keys to the kingdom
Fighting your emotions serves no one, especially your business, so give yourself, and your employees permission to feel, and go forth and wallow.

Episode Links:

Have a Good Cry

Manganese

Hugs Make You Happier

Christy Wright and the Truth About Work Life Balance

Dave Ramsey

Zig Ziglar's Wheel of Life

Marie Kondo

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Episode 016: Camp, Cadavers and Crappy Questions

Assumptions. We all make them. I spend a lot of my time talking about overcoming assumptions. Wanna know why?

It's often said that we preach best what we need to learn most. One day it dawned on me, yes, we do preach what we have yet to learn, but it's also true that we teach best what we've learned most. On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I am going full-bore into the world of assumptions.

As you interview, be brave, hire the person who thinks contrary to you in some ways in order to grow from it, expand your leadership skills, and learn new thought processes.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Making assumptions is my weakness, I see it in others and I've had to learn to routinely check myself on this topic to make sure I practice what I preach.
Leaders encourage interview questions that cause assumptions, and use those assumptions to be the deciding factor in hiring people.
Here's some questions that cause assumptions:
- If you were an animal, what animal would you be? - Ask instead: In what type of work environment do you find yourself most productive?
- Describe something that is less than $20.00 that you can't live without?
  - Ask instead: What tool have you discovered that made an aspect of your job simpler?
- Would you rather ride a unicycle or a donkey to work? Discuss the benefits and draw backs of each?
  - Ask instead: Do you prefer to call, text, or email a customer first, when letting them know there is an issue?
- Do you think mummies should be slow or fast? Why?
  - Ask instead: Would you rather turn in a project late but 100% complete, or a project 80% complete and on time?
Ask questions that relate directly to the work and how they do their job
Draw out work-related thought processes, in which you can deep dive on how the applicant thinks and why they use the methods they do, and it's directly relatable to the position.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions and I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

Third Party Recruiters

The Halo Effect

The Mummy 1932

The Mummy with Brendan Fraser

The Mummy with Tom Cruise

The Flexible Part of the Fishing Rod

Other Crappy Interview Questions

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On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I continue my "Listen In" Interview Series with The Confidence Crusader, Heather Joy Hill, Owner of The Write Path Resume Writing and Interview Prep.

Heather left a position in the high tech industry to focus on resume writing, expanded her services to include interview coaching, and now, she has clients all over the world, including Africa, Australia, Asia, Europe, and South America.

During our discussion, we of course get onto some great tips for interviewing and resume writing, but we also learn why this work is so important to her and how she manages her business, as well as homeschooling her three kiddoes.

So pull up a seat, and Listen In!

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

As the Confidence Crusader, Heather shows people why they should believe in themselves.
Confidence is contagious, and when she helps her clients feel more confident, it helps her own confidence; having a positive effect on others is a ripple effect that helps positivity spread.
Tip # 1: How to view an interviewer. Instead of thinking of them as an interviewer, think of them as a client and you are there to solve their problem; Look at the interviewer as someone who needs help.
Tip #2: Best question to ask in an interview is What is the biggest challenge the team/company is facing in the next 3-6 months.
- This shows active listening skills, shows you understand the job is not all about you but impacts the whole business, and gives a chance to show how you have solved similar problems for other companies.
From her time living abroad and now coaching non-American clients, Heather knows that understanding common colloquialisms is a challenge for individuals, especially in an interview setting, which has really helped her empathize with her coaching clients.
Heather has a number of older clients and has helped them navigate areas such as how the rules changed since they last interviewed/wrote a resume, how to handle age, what they can/can't say, and how to handle past firings.
People lose their confidence from getting fired, but they don't lose the value they provide to employers and they don't lose their skills just because they were fired, even if they made a mistake.
Resumes can be multiple pages, but it is important to get to the point on the first page in an interesting way.
On your resume, clearly state what you are good at AND what you want to do.
Your resume is not just a ticket to see a potential employer, but there are things on there that you can be utilizing yourself to have your own side hustle.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

The Write Path Resumes

Email Heather at TheWritePathResumes@gmail.com

Spanish Dictionary

Etsy Resume Templates

Ban the Box Legislation

Swipe Right Aim

Listening Through Frustration

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Episode 015: Unconscious Bias

Diversity, inclusion, and acceptance are all hot topics these days, as is the conversation around Unconscious Bias. Truth be told, the subject I am talking about today is reason I started writing this podcasts.

In this episode, I talk about the McGurk Effect and the idea of Deliberate Practice, which you may have heard spoken about as the 10,000 hour rule made popular by Malcolm Gladwell in his book, Outliers. What do they have to do with each other and how does it relate to recruiting? You'll find out today on The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

The McGurk effect is a perceptual phenomenon that demonstrates an interaction between hearing and vision in speech perception.
The illusion occurs when the auditory component of one sound is paired with the visual component of another sound, leading to the perception of a third sound.
Very few people approach interviews from the standpoint of the science behind them or deliberately dive into concepts during interviews.
Interviewers take the first answer as the answer, but that first answer given, rarely has context, and any context it does have lies in the interviewer’s head caused by personal assumptions.
The added difficulty is that candidates often try to manipulate the context, not because they want to lie, but because they have been coached to hide certain pieces of information.
I'll talk to people over the phone and be very impressed by what they are saying, but when we meet fact to face, I can often feel let down.
Turns out that we tend to favor people when we can only listen to them, and when we see them in person another first impression emerges.
McGurk effect - where is your brain creating a third, and incorrect assumption based on competing, yet correct data points?
Deliberate practice - accept that if it really takes 10,000 hours of deliberate practice to be a master interviewer, that you will retire around the time you master it. Focus on getting better.
Unconscious bias - ask more questions, ask why, and don't rely on your assumptions. Get comfortable with challenging your assumptions in interviews.
Look to hire people who are different than you, think differently, and come up with radically different solutions.
Learn to have different managerial solutions and different communication solutions for those on your team. If you are a leader, that will only make you better.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions or check out The Mills Group website. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

The McGurk Effect

Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell

Joe Gerstandt

The McGurk Effect Video

Interview Questions That Suck

Nick Epley

Management Recruiters International

C.L.A.M.S.

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Episode 014: C.L.A.M.S.

Employee motivation: It's the number one topic it seems. The "thing" to talk about right now is culture and culture fit. We are priming the pump with "culture, culture, culture." Then we hire people, and they might fit the culture, but they aren't motivated to do the job…

What happened?

How can we identify motivating factors and use them to keep employees engaged? There's a surprisingly simple tool, and recently I had the opportunity to teach it to a CEO, who used it in another way that was very effective. In this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter wit Daava Mills, I am going to talk about a tool I learned two decades ago, and how effective it still is.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

While culture and values are important, we've lost the sticking reasons of valuable employees.
There is a fundamental mismatch between what a person emotionally needs to come to work daily, and the company's need to make sure the work gets done.
Here's a tool to help assess candidate motivation, and ultimately determine if they stay in the job you hired them to do:

C.L.A.M.S.

C: Challenge - Candidates are motivated by taking on a challenge no one else has done.

L: Location - Take caution by candidates motivated by non-work related factors, ensure that they are capable of doing the job.

A: Advancement - These candidates are great for larger, or quickly growing companies, but you'll only want 10-20% of your employees motivated by advancement.

M: Money - Not everyone who is a hard worker is passionate about what they do; don't rule out someone who is all about money if they can do the job and fit the culture.

S: Security - Candidates motivate by security are the Steady Eddies of the world, the people you want working side by side with your Advancement motivated people.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions or check out The Mills Group website. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

The Rebellious Recruiter - Episode 000

The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman

The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love that Lasts

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LISTEN IN 001: An interview with my mentor Penny Fillhouer

On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I kick off my Listen In Interview Series with my mentor and friend, Penny Fillhouer.

Penny has over 4 decades of experience in recruiting, and even assembled the team that developed the debit card. Currently she is a Recruiting Consultant, and her company, Because Fit Matters, is helping business leaders understand their employees strengths and how to communicate effectively to those strengths through the company values.

In this "short" discussion, we delve into how recruiting has changed and why the current state of recruiting is not working, for companies or candidates. Specifically, we talk about a Forbes article on Unconventional Interview Questions and get real about why most of these are not effective. In the end, a recruiter's job is not to delve into the psyche of a candidate, but to assess whether or not a candidate can perform the functions of the job.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

A recruiter's job used to that of a middle man between the organization and the applicants, getting to know everyone so well that she could see where new hires would compliment the team; as a result, there were no interviews with hiring managers, it was more of an introduction; the recruiters knew, and the company trusted, it would be a good fit.
True recruiters are always talking to people, looking for the next star players, and keeping a full pipeline of potential applicants.
Building relationships with potential candidates slowly, over time, builds the right level of trust and allows candidates to have all the information they need to say yes.
Companies need to stop pretending recruiters are therapists and that they can get into the psyche of a candidate; we are getting too personal based on the lie that we are creating a family; these are not children we need to raise and we not promising them forever attachment.
With these off the wall questions we set up candidates to pass or fail based on one person's ideology and does not have any bearing on whether or not they can do the job.
An interview is like a first date, nothing is real, the candidate is just trying to be liked; the recruiter needs to dig past that to determine if they have the skills to do the job.
Companies need to stop looking at culture as something that fits into a box, every new employee a company bring on changes the culture and you can't treat everyone exactly the same way.
Recruiters should be looking for candidates to demonstrate comfort in their career; do they talk about their specialty like they're romancing it or talking about their favorite food.
Before you hire any candidate:
1. Clearly communicate your basic mission and values.
2. Make the applicant promise that before I hire you, are prepared to be accountable to uphold our mission and values.
3. If you don't, are you giving me permission to hold you accountable and switch your behavior to to get you back on track.
4. And will you agree that if you don't do that and continually refuse, you will resign from the job.
5. If you get that from every person you hire, they are giving the recruiter permission to do their job.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

15 Unconventional Interview Questions

Video: Have a career at foodguys

Topgrading

Who: The A Method for Hiring by Geoff Smart and Randy Street

Ring of Fire

The Visual Interview

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Episode 013: Ring of Fire

I recently had my child's brain scanned and she insisted I do a podcast on her brain. At first I wasn't sure that it would be relevant, but as I put the pieces together about what makes her brain act differently than mine, a lot of things make sense to me about how to be a better manager and mentor.

On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter wit Daava Mills, I'm going to talk about the powers of observation, and how people's neurological differences can actually be deployed as your secret weapon, demonstrated by reflecting on my child's neurological difference. Today is about training, mentoring, and putting the pieces of your team together as you grow.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

We hire people blind from their past issues not knowing the traumas they've experienced and if their bad habits from bad management experiences or if they have a brain that is not mainstream.
The reality is that all of our brains work differently. If you had a scan of each of your employees, you'd be able to see what skills light up. Try and think about what skill areas would light up brightest for your team members.
Each person's unique talents can be a superpower, and if deployed properly, will help move your organization forward.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions or check out The Mills Group website. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

Amen Clinics

ADD Type 6: Ring of Fire

Dr. Daniel G. Amen, M.d.

AskJan.org

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Episode 012: The Swipe Right Aim

When you meet me in person, you'll very quickly figure out two things.

1) I'm an extreme extrovert. Seriously, a stranger is just a friend I haven't met yet. There are very few people I don't like, and there are a lot more that probably don't like me.

And 2) I'll ask you a zillion questions about your job, what you do, what's hard about it, and why you take pride in it. I'm a recruiter to the core.

COVID19 has me twisted in every sense of the word. I had a different podcast planned for this episode, but that changed when I sat down to write this week. Locked up, extroverted Recruiters? We get philosophical. And today, it's very philosophical, and of course I'll be using my favorite brand of mixed metaphors, this time how recruiting is like shooting a long bow.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

We're living in a swipe right culture, and it's found its way to recruiting. Nothing wrong with swipe right, but to get that swipe you have to show who you really are to the person on the other end.
The best pick up lines in the dating world simply begin with "Hi". So why in recruiting are companies demanding a candidate's innermost secrets during the introduction, especially when the company itself has only posted a blurry picture.
Don't hold back because you're afraid of getting bruised, instead show candidates who you are, the things that are uniquely you.
Companies are responsible for creating a culture that makes employees want to stay. Do you know why your people stay? Find out!

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

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Episode 011: The Right Bait to Hit the Employment G-Spot

Talent acquisition has basically turned into a defensive formation, along with candidate applications that have taken on a defensive formation as well. Lots of virtual tackling is happening. But…. who has the ball? And how can anyone possibly score?

I don't know about you, but I see inspiration and recruiting analogies everywhere I look. On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I am going to break down an especially awful ad that came through my FaceBook feed recently. Then I am going to cross reference it to current recruiting practices. Which means, today, we're pulling back out the fishing analogy of chum and bait.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Companies get overrun with resumes and applications, making it near impossible to find the right candidate.
So companies add in lots of hoops to jump through in the hopes of weeding out unqualified or disinterested candidates, but all that does is confuse and aggravate great candidates, who then reject the bait.
The result is everyone ends up on the defensive and no one wins.

How to fix it?

Start with the job ad.
List the top 5 things they will be doing
Use narrative and bullet points
Keep it to one page
List out the problems you need solved instead of burying candidates in unnecessary and inflexible requirements
Describe the job in military terms as a way to cater to women and men transitioning from the military
Review the application process and limit all the number screening questions down to what is truly necessary.
Create a spot on your website that speaks directly to potential employees.
In every job ad and every interview, explain the hiring process for your company.
And finally, stop with all the unwritten rules.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

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Do you know the three types of recruiters and the skill set that is specific for each?

Believe it or not, companies hiring corporate recruiters don't even differentiate between the types. Also, within corporate recruiting, there are sub-types based on the size of the organization, and once again, companies don't delineate the difference on the practiced skills based on company needs.

I've worked as a temp recruiter, 3rd party recruiter, contract recruiter, and corporate recruiter. Each of these positions required a completely different set of skills. And, in this episode of the Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, since is seems no one else is talking about this angle of recruiting - or possibly, no one understands it - I will.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

The 3 types of recruiters:
- Temp Recruiter: Recruiting for hard skills first because the client needs the job done now. This is a great way for companies to see how a person performs over time and evaluate culture fit.
- 3rd Party Recruiter (or Executive Recruiter): Recruiters that are paid a contingency fee or on retainer. Typically filling positions based on experience and culture fit.
- Corporate Recruiter: Recruiting for open position within the recruiter's own company.
Within Corporate Recruiting, there are sub-types:
- The Full Cycle Recruiter: Typically handles all aspects of the recruitment process and will have 10-15 openings at any given time.
- The Recruitment Project Manager: Typically assigned to a specific division or skill specialty and will have 20-50 open positions at a time.
- The Recruitment Program Manager: Senior level recruiter making the engine of the recruiting process run while handling 80 openings at any given time.
Recruiters, by nature, love to improve things, so keep an open mind when they make process improvement suggestions.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions or check out The Mills Group website. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

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Today we're getting morbid. We're talking about failures in recruiting and we're going to walk through one of the most important steps of the recruiting process: The Post-Mortem.

Over 20 years in the trenches of recruiting, I've interviewed somewhere between 11,000 and 15,000 people. So believe me when I tell you, failures happen, and in order to learn from them, we need to understand what went wrong, and takes steps to ensure those mistakes are not repeated.

On today's episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, we're doing a dive deep into the world of process improvement, and how to look at it from a recruiting angle.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

In all my years of recruiting, I can only recall one time that a bad hire was made and through these post mortem steps couldn't find a mistake during the hiring process.
Sometimes, you can do everything right, and still have a bad hire or an off-culture fit.
A true recruiter will take the time to understand nuance, and nuance is where the postmortem starts.
A very common mistake is bad hires happen when strong assumptions are made by the decision makers, and then they base an entire hiring decision on one really good answer. This is called the Halo Effect.
Actual verifiable answers from a candidate are key, not the assumptions you make from the answer.

Here are my steps for a Post Mortem:

Did the recruiter who initially screened the resume know what they were looking for?
Does the recruiter understand the soft skills required for the department?
Can the recruiter talk effectively about the micro-culture of the department?
Did the recruiter also do a phone screen and did they take solid notes?
Was the micro-culture of the department discussed?
Did the candidate have questions? If so, what were they?
Were the challenges the department is facing discussed openly and honestly?
Did the advertisement effectively call out the top five skills required for the position?
Did the job description require a realistic amount of experience (not too much)?
Did the hiring manager read the initial phone screen notes that the recruiter captured?
Did the manager ask follow-up questions from the phone screen to get clarity or did they repeat the same questions, and thereby got the same answers?
During the interview did a manager get swayed by experience that is useable, but not relevant to the immediate needs?
Were the top five skills discussed in detail, or was an entire skill signed off on with only one good story?
Did you do references? (Please note, I'm reference ambivalent)
If references were done, did their job title and job duties line up with what is on the resume?
Did you ask the reference about their strengths and areas for learning?
Rinse and repeat these steps until you've looked at each piece.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

The woman in the red dress

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I’ve seen some messed up resumes in my time. I’ve coached potential employees on what to do to clean up their resumes, I spent a little extra time on the phone getting to understand skill sets, and I’ve discovered there are wonderful people out there that bring revenue and positive impact to the company they work for.

I am a big believer that awful resumes often times belong to incredible employees. On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I’ll talk about how to look through messy resumes and discover “WOW” employees.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

There is an entire generation from the latter half of Gen X through the first half of Millennials that have never been properly trained on how to write a resume.
Emotional Capital is the building block of an employment relationship. Stay tuned for an upcoming series that will break this process down in detail.
There are a million reasons why a person has a terrible resume, and it's the job of the recruiter to find out why, to look for signs of whether the candidate has the skills for the position, and is worth pursuing.
Take the time to provide feedback and offer pointers for a terrible resumes, not only are you building emotional capital with the candidate, you will learn from their response if this is a candidate that you want for your organization, either now or in the future.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni

Episode 003: What is a Visual Interview

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Given that these are the days of remote work, COVID-19 and Zoom call overload, talking about a phone screen probably seems a bit old fashioned, but for me, old habits die hard. I personally enjoy listening to a person without being distracted by their fashion choices or facial expressions.

On this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I'm going to break down what I have found to be the ideal phone screen, and why it works. I started recruiting over 20 years ago, back when it was ALL done on the phone. Today, I'll be sharing with you what I have learned about getting a candidate to open up right away.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Remember the fishing analogy from Episode 004? Here is your fishing rod in action.
The goals of a phone screen are to get the candidate m interested in the job, build rapport, find out what their professional goals are, and determine if they are in the right salary range.
Candidates typically ask the same set of boring questions over and over, like "What is a day in the life like", "How much does this pay?", "What benefits do you offer?", "What is the schedule?", or "Why do you like working here?"
I've learned to flip the script by first starting with pitching the company and the role, second allowing them to ask questions - no question is off the table, vulnerability counts here - and third, I would ask my questions. Do a deep dive into the candidate so you know exactly what their skills are and look at your interview as a process of selling your company.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions or check out The Mills Group website. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

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“One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision.”

Bertrand Russe

On this largely philosophical episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I am talking about the Dunning-Kruger Effect, which is a cognitive bias in which people with low ability at a task overestimate their ability.

In 20 years of working in the trenches of recruiting, I have been exposed to everyone on the leadership teams at the different companies I have worked for, and, in that time, I have made some interesting observations about competence vs. confidence. If you don’t know what I am talking about now, you’ll get it by the end of the episode.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

While lemon juice may be used to make invisible ink, it will not make your face invisible when trying to rob a bank.
Fly By Leadership, along with other "Best Practices", are used as excuses to not be an effective leader and blame others or systems.
At the beginning of a learning process, people climb to the peak of "Mt. Stupid" then crash down into the "Valley of Despair" before their competence and confidence level off and build toward a sustainable level. See the Competence vs. Confidence chart in the episode links below.
With the average worker staying at a job for two years or less, we feel pressure to hire employees who can hit the ground running to maximize the ROI for that hire. As a result, employee training suffers.
Too often, we relegate team building to an HR event that happens on a schedule, instead of taking time to sit with our employees.
When onboarding new employees, leaders can use the 5 approaches of Pedagogy (the study of how children learn): Constructivist, Collaborative, Integrative, Reflective & Inquiry Based.
To recognize the Dunning-Krueger Effect, ask the question "Do you know how much a wrong decision will cost this company?"
Leaders need to accept that the Dunning-Krueger Effect is a natural part of learning and must build in time to train employees until their competence matches their confidence.

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.”

Charles Darwin

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

The Dunning-Krueger Effect

Competence vs. Confidence Chart

Fly By Leadership and the Myth of "Bring Me a Solution"

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More and more these days I am seeing business leaders do something that I am sick of. It's what I call "fly by leadership." How many times have you heard a leader or manager say to an employee, "don't bring me a problem without a solution!"

This is an ostrich approach, it's an avoidance innovation, a failure to train employees, and a lack of total ability to push yourself further as a mentor and leader.

I've been in the trenches of recruiting for over 20 years and I've seen and heard every leadership cliché play out in the workplace. In this episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, I'm going to share my thoughts on training.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Over the last couple of decades, companies have been working hard to sidestep the entire process of what leadership looks like and avoid training employees altogether.
Combine that with the resume crisis - candidates know how to make their resumes look like they have stronger skills than they actually have - and the cultural misunderstanding of what micromanagement is, business are left with imbalanced workloads across teams and managers, resulting in dissatisfied customers, increased costs and decreased revenue.
Today's corporations are are being built with an absence of mentoring and are turning training into a department.
Leaders must make time to train their employees on the soft skills required for the position and turn decision making into a competency.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen, PhD

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni

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Obviously, recruiting is like fishing.

But, as any experienced fisher will tell you, fishing is more than having attractive bait. Sure, you can get lucky sometimes with just a worm, a stick, some string, and a bent safety pin, but with great tools at your disposal, why wouldn’t you use them?

On today's episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, we are talking about the tools you need to recruit effectively.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

Glossary for this episode:
- Chum - Networking and employment page
- Bait - Job Ad
- Line - The interview
- Rod - The structure to your interview
- Reel - The continued steps in the process
- Farm - List of qualified people
- Fish food - Ongoing communication
- Hatchery - Your training ground
The recruiting is like fishing analogy:
- One - what type of fish do you need?
- Two - what type of environment do you find them in?
- Three - what proven tools are out there to cath them?
- Four - if you need them later, rather than sooner, what type of environment do you put them in so they are thriving when you are ready for them?
While I discuss how to recruit for specific positions like Administrative Professionals, Office Managers, Sales People, and Cost Accounts, the concepts here can be applied to all types of positions you are recruiting for once you have identified the characteristics of each.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions or check out The Mills Group website. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

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Typically, I am not a fan of an uber-scripted employment interview, but a visual interview? That is a scripted interview I can get behind. What is a Visual Interview? It’s a way to spark conversation with a candidate that works with their hands.

On today's episode of The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills, we’ll explore the why behind the Visual Interview, how to use it, and what to expect from the outcome.

Daava's Rebellious Recruiting Notes:

The problem: I was interviewing people that work with their hands for a living, like a welder, and evaluating hard skills from their verbal communication.
I had recently learned in a webinar that “if you need to hire people who work with their hands, give them something to play with in the interview.”
I developed the "Visual Interview" that included pictures, cards with keywords and an actual weld plate.
Using these items allowed me to have a natural discussion with the candidates and I could better evaluate where they landed on certain skills, what types of things were important to them, and I could communicate to them what was important to the company.
Instead of evaluating "how they spoke", I could better evaluate them on what they knew.
Our safety results from employees hired using this interview type was eye opening.

As always, you can email me at daava@millsgroupllc.com with your thoughts or questions. I may use your subject matter in upcoming shows.

Episode Links:

The Mills Group

Baby Welding

OSHA

The Rebellious Recruiter with Daava Mills: Recent Episodes

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